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Mis entrevistados en este episodio son Anny Gabriela Ventura Puac y Jairo Chamalé Lemus. Anny es ajquij(guía espiritual), politóloga e investigadora, actual curadora en jefe de Espacio/C. Nacida en Chuwila, Chichicastenango, Quiché, Guatemala. Es mujer Maya Kiche con identidad diversa, sanadora y contadora del tiempo. Tiene estudios en Ciencias Políticas y Sociales, Relaciones Internacionales y una especialidad en ODS para Naciones Indígenas. Es confundadora de Espacio C, en dónde se ha desempeñado como gestora cultural desde 2013 y curadora en Jefe desde 2023.En Guatemala su trabajo está presente en diversos espacios sociales, políticos y culturales, como consultora independiente para organizaciones no gubernamentales, trabajando con niñas, mujeres y adolescentes mayas y no mayas a nivel nacional, en temas concretos como empoderamiento político, salud (diabetes / VIH) y sanación desde la Cosmovisión Maya.Jairo es persona disidente, del territorio Poqomam de Mixco, viajero e investigador se la religiosidad popular, las expresiones culturales y la espiritualidad de su contexto cercano. Es guía de turismo y estudiante de antropología.Notas del EpisodioAnny y Jairo y el Cristo NegroEl camino de peregrinacion entre Mixco y OaxacaQuirio Catano y las origines del cristo negroLas diversas formas de sacrificar y bailarLas colonizaciones de EquipulasEl base de cristo negro en el mundo maya/mexicaEl crisis climatico y la falta de ofrendasLas consecuencias de la perdida de hospitalidadLa memoria vivida del intercambio intercultural antiguaTarea Abisaí Navarro María Jacinta Xón / Proyecto Tux Cocina Gourmet de OrigenHoja de Pacaya - InstagramLos Cofrades Chichicastenango - Instagramespacio/C arte+memoria - InstagramTranscripcion en espanol (English Below)S6 - Anny Puac & Jairo - Peregrinacion a EsquipulasChris: [00:00:00] Bienvenida y bienvenido al podcast El Fin del Turismo Annie y Jairo. Gracias a ambos por acompañarme hoy. Me encantaría que pudieran contarles a nuestros oyentes desde dónde llaman y cómo aparece el mundo ahí para cada uno de ustedes.Anny: Muchas gracias, Chris y buenos días a quienes nos escuchen o buenas tardes o buenas noches, dependiendo su zona horaria.Mi nombre es Anny y yo le saludo desde el territorio maya K'iche' de Chuwila, K'iche' Guatemala específicamente.Jairo: Buenos días a ambos, para mi un gusto estar por acá. Sawe ta inteer winaq (Buenos días a todas y todos) mucho gusto desde el territorio pues Poqomam de Mixco y también desde las cercanías a la ciudad de Guatemala, pues gracias por esta [00:01:00] oportunidad para compartir conocimiento.Chris: Y gracias a ustedes dos. Yo estoy aquí en Oaxaca y el mundo parece obviamente un poco raro. Bueno, quizás no es obvio, pero parece más raro día por día. Estamos aquí hoy para hablar de Esquipulas en Guatemala. Y Esquipulas es el lugar de varias iglesias que han abergado al cristo negro de la ciudad, que es famosa por sus supuestos milagros durante los últimos cuatro siglos.De manera similar, la peregrinación al santuario es la más grande de América Central y la segunda más grande de las Américas, con lo que leí, 5 millones de personas que lo visitan cada año. Ahora, para empezar, ¿Estarían dispuestos a explicar que impulsó a cada uno [00:02:00] de sus intereses o relaciones con este lugar y la práctica de la peregrinación?Anny: Sí, por supuesto Chris. Pues, yo desde como mi relación, digamos personal o individual como familia, yo tengo, digamos, como clara la idea de cuando inician estas peregrinaciones, de pronto, cuando yo ya tenía unos siete u ocho años de edad, así, para decirte que yo tengo claridad, pero cuando yo retrocedo a los archivos de la familia, pues veo que el tema de peregrinar a Esquipulas, pues comienza con mis abuelas.Jairo: Entonces yo te podría decir que dentro de mi familia, la peregrinación a Esquipulas , así quizá llevará mínimamente unos 80 años presente en la familia, sobre todo del lado de [00:03:00] mi abuela materna. Que ella es de un territorio K'iche' de Quetzaltenango, en donde pues empezaban el viaje, en conjunto, allá fuera un viaje de barrio organizado por el barrio, o era un viaje familiar, entonces se iban uno o dos buses en aquel tiempo cuando no había tanto transporte, verdad? Era un lujo también irse por alguna ruta en donde hubiera paso para bus. Y pues, lo que no se pudiera transitar ya en bus, pues se hacía caminando, se hacían burros, pero, más o menos por ahí viene un poquito la historia de de cómo inician estas rutas de peregrinaje en mi familia, digamos. Con el caso de nosotros, yo no tengo conciencia de pequeño de haber, pues, llegado a Esquipulas. Bueno, hay un dato bien interesante, cuando yo cumplo 40 días de haber nacido, mi familia decide llevarme a [00:04:00] Esquipulas, eso pues está en el archivo fotográfico de la familia como agradecimiento, porque al final nací con... nací bien.Jairo: Y entonces la familia decide peregrinar es el dato más cercano que tengo de la personal de las idas a Esquipulas. Claro, esto siempre lo he tenido muy familiarizado dentro de mi contexto cercano, puesto que la gente pues de mi municipio suele ir justo organizada en excursiones de las diferentes organizaciones religiosas que hay en mi municipio.Estas, pues designan fechas y son buses llenos de aproximadamente 50 personas. Cada bus suelen llegar hasta tres, de acá de Mixco, pues que se van para para Esquipulas. Y ese es algo bien interesante porque es pues, parte de la modernidad, digámoslo ir en bus, pero hay muchas anécdotas de las personas de acá del pueblo que [00:05:00] cuentan cómo, pues iban de una forma más rústica, verdad? Que podía ser, pues en peregrinaje caminando, que no era la única peregrinación, de hecho la del cristo negro de Esquipulas. Hoy puntualmente, vamos a hablar de ella.Pero pues están también las peregrinaciones Antigua Guatemala que está aquí cerquita, aquí detrás de nosotros hay un cerro que es el cerro Alux. Este cerro se cruzaba, pues caminando, todavía lo hace la gente caminando porque detrás del cerro está, pues la bajada para llegar a la Antigua Guatemala.Chris: Gracias. Gracias a ustedes. Pues así, por conocer un poco más de sus historias, como de peregrinación, me gustaría saber un poco más si se podrían ofrecer algo de la larga historia de Esquipulas, del cristo negro y pues, ¿Cómo se originó la la peregrinación? ¿De donde viene esa historia?.Jairo: Bueno, como lo mencioné antes, diciendo algunas [00:06:00] palabras en el idioma poqomam. Es el idioma que se hablaba, pues en nuestro pueblo. Lo voy a decir nuevamente más despacio para, pues, describirles que es lo que dije, técnicamente es:Sawe' ta inteer winaq, kiroo wilkee' chipam ma' q 'oriik taqee, reh ma' ojeer winaq reh qatinimiit Mixko' buenos días a todos. Qué gusto pues poder compartir estas palabras y también un poco de la historia de la gente antigua de nuestro pueblo. Porque pues, la verdad es que el peregrinaje a Esquipulas está muy relacionado e intrínseco con la gente de Mixco y justamente también con el territorio oaxaqueño. Mi nombre, pues es Jairo, Jairo Andrés Chamale Lemus. Yo pues pertenezco a este territorio, a la gente maya poqomam. De acá es la mitad de mi familia de mis antepasados. Y , pues me dedico al turismo. Yo soy guía [00:07:00] de turistas de hace aproximadamente ocho años ya desde que me gradué muy joven. Y, pues me he dedicado justo a peregrinar para que las personas conozcan también el contexto histórico de Guatemala y de las diferentes expresiones culturales, religiosas y también de resistencia de la gente en el territorio de lo que ahora conocemos como Guatemala.Pues también, soy estudiante de la carrera de antropología, de la licenciatura específicamente en antropología, y pues me he dedicado también a estudiar el caso del idioma maya poqomam en Mixco, que es una comunidad muy cercana a la ciudad de Guatemala, que hemos tenido pues un impacto, demográfico y social, pues bastante fuerte, pues debido al crecimiento del área metropolitana de la ciudad de Guatemala. Es algo a lo que me he dedicado a estudiar durante los últimos años. Y también, pues, a [00:08:00] documentarlo, porque tenemos muchas prácticas culturales y espirituales en nuestro pueblo, que han ido desapareciendo conforme este avance demográfico de la ciudad, muchísimas gracias. Rontyoox aq'oo taAnny: Bueno Chris. En realidad hay un registro, digamos histórico, donde dice que el primer peregrinaje que se inicia a Esquipulas, fue en Marzo 1595, cuando la imagen sale del taller de este señor escultor Quirio Cataño, que sale hacia Esquipulas, hacia Chiquimula. Esto está al oriente de Guatemala. Nosotros lo conocemos como la zona caliente de de Guatemala. Pero es la zona, digamos, como caliente árida. Es un territorio en donde hay comunidad Xinca, Popti', si no estoy mal Chortí también. Y pues, la producción que se [00:09:00] tiene por las tierras de por allá, estamos hablando de frutas de algunas plantas, de algunos tubérculos más o menos, pero más que todos se dedican a la fruta, verdad.Esta primera peregrinación la documenta y la registra el cronista, que se llama Miguel Álvarez. Y él dice que, cuando cuando salióó del taller y se dirigió hacia Esquipulas la imagen iba haciendo diferentes milagros en todo el recorrido hasta llegar a la basílica. Entonces habían personas que le pedían justamente que, que por favor que la imagen pasara por lo menos una noche dentro de la casa de las personas para, bendecirlo. Y Y más o menos se calcula cada año, digamos en la actualidad, ahora en Guatemala y en alrededor de 300 mil personas de todo el mundo, más que todo entre México, Centroamérica, países del sur, por ejemplo de Perú [00:10:00] de Ecuador de Ecuador, Bolivia, si no estoy mal, es como mucha la cantidad de gente que llega, más o menos entre noviembre, que ahorita es como una fecha de noviembre y diciembre y todo enero, digamos, esas son como los tres meses de muchísima más afluencia de personas que llegan llegan a la basílica, verdad? Entonces se le puede llamar romerías, se le puede llamar una peregrinacion que peregrinación, usualmente, pues ahí si que las personas que visitan puede ser que hagan así como un día de visita nada más o puede ser que pueda prolongarse una visita hasta por 10, 15 días, verdad?De la ciudad de Guatemala, hasta Esquipulas hay una distancia más o menos como entre unos 220 a 250 kilómetros y se recorre, si vas como en romería, pasando por lugares como muy puntuales de toda la peregrinación, en promedio [00:11:00] cada día tú vas haciendo un tramo de 40 kilómetros, al día, digamos si tu intención es ir en peregrinaje así. Entonces eso es más o menos como más datos históricos y el relato, verdad?Chris: Y estoy un poco curioso, dentro de las estancias, al llegar a Esquipulas, si yo fuera peregrinando, por ejemplo, ¿ Qué haría? ¿Se van parando para hacer sus rezos? Me gustaría saber por alguien que nunca ha hecho una peregrinación, como aparecía esos días antes de venir.Anny: Bueno, yo te voy a contar un poquito el relato de de mi familia porque mi abuela materna, ella sí era una señora, pues muy católica, no? Entonces, pues ella, su peregrinaje, digamos para ella, era su sacrificio, verdad? En el año, decir bueno, por agradecimiento [00:12:00] a mi salud, a los milagros que me concedió, porque era como muy devota. Era el hecho de salir en ruta de peregrinaje. ¿Qué implicaba esto? Inclusive, preparar comida para no digamos como perder el tiempo, tú pensando en qué comer durante el camino, porque la idea para ellos y para ellas era, pues, ir en como en recogimiento, en rezo constante, en oración, digamos en petición, ir como parando cada cierto tiempo, verdad? Cada 40 kilómetros, porque que ya dentro de la comunidad, católica-cristiana, hay puntos que están como marcados dentro de la ruta en donde tú puedes ir parando con cada familia, porque puede ser que tengan una réplica de la imagen del cristo negro, porque de hecho, cuando fue la primera peregrinación, puede ser que esta familia haya sido una de las [00:13:00] familias que recibió por primera vez el cristo negro.Entonces se convierte como en ese punto de de parada, verdad? Entonces, cuando hacen ese punto de parada, pues ya bajan. Bajan a hacer oración, bajan a platicar y a convivir con las personas de pronto, a compartir un alimento. Ya sentir, pues, así que también como su fé, su devoción, pero al mismo tiempo su convivencia, su alegría en este, en este tramo de compartir no?.Entonces eso digamos, es lo que usualmente, pues se ve. Yo también he visto otras personas que, por ejemplo, ya cuando quedan unos, son los últimos 20 kilómetros de recorrido por ejemplo, descienden de sus vehículos y caminan de rodillas esos 20 kilómetros hasta llegar a la basílica. Entonces, pues, los ves, ya puede ser que sea solo el papá con con el hijo, o el papá y la mamá, o pues la diversidad de personas que puedan llegar, que van y que pues hacen su penitencia, y [00:14:00] entregan digamos, pues su sacrificio de esta forma. Así como hay personas que puede ser que, que durante toda su ruta de peregrinaje, hay un ejemplo de unos, de unas personas cercanas a nosotros que tienen un conjunto de marimba, de música, y pues lo que hacen es que van con un vehículo y van ejecutando música todo el trayecto hasta llegar a Esquipulas, y ya cuando llegan a la basílica, bajan con sus instrumentos y se dedican a cantar ya sea una canción, un tiempo, verdad?Ahí, entonces, pues yo creo que depende, varía mucho de lo que te puedas tú dedicar o el agradecimiento que tú quieras pues dar, o a lo que, pues, lo que tu corazón salga, no? En mi caso como muy puntual, pues nosotros hacemos el recorrido completo los 220 kilómetros en vehículo hasta llegar a Esquipulas. Y luego, pues ahí ya, o sea, nos establecemos [00:15:00] y como nuestras dinámicas son un tanto como diferentes porque yo no soy católica. Yo soy de la cosmovisión maya, y pues ahí he crecido buena parte de mi vida. Mi concepción como de ver esta ruta de peregrinaje es diferente, porque si bien es cierto el que el cristo negro, pues es una figura de un cristo crucificado cristiano, Jesús, nosotros aprendimos a ver cómo la historia del pueblo Poptí y Chorti y Chortí, en cuanto a que esta ruta de peregrinaje es bien interesante, porque durante toda tu ruta más, más o menos, me atrevería a decir que tal vez un 70 de la ruta, tú vas encontrando montañas de obsidiana, entonces es una ruta que en sí es una ruta de sanación y para nosotros, digamos dentro de la cosmovisión maya está muy relacionada con el Nahual Tijax, que es la obsidiana y para [00:16:00] quizá buena parte de Oaxaca o de su Istmo o de la cultura Náhuatl, por ejemplo, está relacionado con Tezcatlipoca que era justamente esta veneración de esta mujer que decían que era brillante y color de cobrizo y de nigriso verdad? Y por tanto, Y pues tú sabes que ambas piedras o estos relatos que nos cuentan, pues es justamente sanación y de ahí que nosotros creemos que por eso el cristo negro es tan milagroso cuando se trata de temas de salud.Jairo: Desde nuestro lado, por así decirlo, forma parte ya de un peregrinaje que no solamente se hace el 15 de enero. Claro, el 15 de enero es el día establecido para hacer el peregrinaje de cristo negro de Esquipulas. Pero pues, muchos de los grupos que les comentaba que son bastante diversos acá en Mixco, grupos religiosos principalmente católicos, o pues sincretizados de [00:17:00] alguna forma, establecen también estas visitas como parte de su organización dentro del grupo de personas que inciden.Y entonces si, justamente dentro del bus, también se suele, pues, ir rezando el rosario, que es esta práctica de ir rezando las novenas con un orden establecido con cantos y la gente, pues suele ir desde que salen de ciudad de Guatemala o desde que salen de acá desde Mixco, que hay que cruzar la ciudad y luego la ruta hacia el oriente de Guatemala, la gente va haciendo estas oraciones cada cierto tiempo, pero depende mucho del grupo y de qué tan católico sea de alguna forma, porque hay grupos que solamente lo hacen como una excursión claro. El fin principal es de la visita, pues a la basílica del cristo negro y la veneración de cristo negro como tal.Y, pues solamente llegan en en el bus hasta la basílica y algo que caracteriza mucho a la cultura de [00:18:00] Mixco, es el, la quema de pólvora. A nosotros nos fascina la pólvora y cuando llegamos a Esquipulas justamente esa es la premisa, no? Llegar a quemar bombas de sonido, de sonido estridente en aviso que la gente de Mixco ya llegó.Y también fuegos pirotécnicos de colores. Es bien curioso porque depende mucho del grupo y a lo que el grupo, pues aunque sea católico o sincretizado con lo maya, a lo que este grupo religiosamente se dedique, encaminado a eso va la actividad que se va a realizar allá.Tengo conocimiento de un grupo que, de hecho, ya se documentó a gracias al CECEG, al Centro de Estudios Culturales de la Universidad de San Carlos, de Guatemala, es el grupo El Baile de Moros de los Seis Toritos, que es básicamente un grupo de danza tradicional que nace en la aldea Lo De Bran que está acá en Mixco siempre dentro [00:19:00] del área metropolitana y ellos, pues se dedican a bailar El Torito. El Torito es básicamente la representación de una danza que se hace en alusión a dueños de una finca y el trato hacia los animales. Entonces los animales tienen una especie de de revelación contra este dueño de la finca, una historia bien, sutilmente contada desde lo maya también. Y entonces van a hacer esta representación de la danza a Esquipulas. Esto lo hacen justamente para la fiesta del cristo negro. Bailan todo el día, durante tres días seguidos frente al atrio de la iglesia de Esquipulas, mientras millones de personas visitan la basílica de cristo negro y en ese momento ellos están bailando ahí.Chris: Qué fascinante. Me encanta ese sentido, esa onda que, que hay tanta diversidad, en la forma, los caminos, las celebraciones que se niegue un poco [00:20:00] ese sentido occidental que es como de siempre asumir o buscar una sola respuesta, una sola historia, una sola manera, de actuar, de entender.Y así fue sorprendiente para mí por leer, por investigar las historias de Esquipulas y de las peregrinaciones porque encontré muchas historias diversas. Entonces voy a leer un poquito de lo que encontré y me gustaría escuchar de ustedes, si se podrían comentar un poco de si hay sentidos de "eso es como puro chisme o es un rumor" o si hay capas y capas dentro de las historias de Esquipulas y las peregrinaciones.Entonces, pues la primera va que "en la ciudad sagrada de Copán se celebraban grandes fiestas en honor [00:21:00] a dios maya Ek-Kampulá que significa: 'el que empuja las nubes', pues se le atribuía el poder de alejar las lluvias y permitir los días del sol necesarios para preparar la siembra.Ek-Kampulá que era de color negro, estaba rodeado con una antorcha en la mano izquierda. Su figura se puede apreciar en las graduadas de uno de los templos de Copán." Ahora, el segundo."Algunos relatos dicen que la figura del cristo negro fue ordenada por los conquistadores españoles en Guatemala en ese momento para facilitar la conversión de los pueblos locales al cristianismo."Ahora, el próximo. "Las leyendas piadosas afirman que la imagen se oscureció debido a los misioneros españoles que deseaban convertir a los [00:22:00] nativos que adoraban a la deidad nebulosa pagana Ek-Kampulá en el área que también era representada como una figura oscura." Entonces, supongo que mi pregunta es como, ¿Cuántas de estas historias han escuchado Y ¿Cuáles historias son las meras meras verdaderas según ustedes? O si hay capas y capas y capas de historias en qué todas merecen su lugar.Jairo: Yo creería que, Copán tiene un papel bien importante dentro de lo que estamos hablando. Ahora es un sitio arqueológico del área residencial o el castillo, por así decirlo, y los templos de la gente maya de ese tiempo, recordemos que es el clásico. Y pues esta ciudad fue colonizada por otra ciudad que se llama Quiriguá, que está siempre en las riberas del Río Motagua, un río muy [00:23:00] importante que comunica toda la parte de las montañas de Guatemala con el Caribe. Y en Copán si hay muchas expresiones espirituales. Seguro, Anny nos va a ampliar un poco más de esto. Pero lo que yo he visto son muchas expresiones, rituales espirituales y también, un centro de peregrinaje como tal ya fungía Copán. O sea, ya era una capital política, religiosa y cultural muy importante que está muy cerca de Esquipulas. Es increíblemente como un sitio maya tan importante del clásico está tan cerca a una ciudad, que es tan importante para todo el área mesoamericana. Es decir, desde México hasta Costa Rica, conocen al cristo negro de Esquipulas. Y pues también algo que a mi me llama la atención relacionado a lo que acabas de decir es como, Esquipulas, pues si es un referente para la gente pues católica, la gente católica que no es maya va [00:24:00] también a Esquipulas como una forma de peregrinaje, pero, a mi me llama mucho la atención, la práctica también de la espiritualidad maya y otras espiritualidades que se llevan a cabo en Esquipulas, no?quizás no es tan directamente relacionado con la figura que acabas de mencionar, que yo he escuchado como Ek-Chuah, sino que es esta figura de la piedra de los compadres, que es una leyenda, no? Una leyenda de adulterio, por así decirlo, en el cual hay dos piedras que están pegadas en alusión a dos amigos que llegan al peregrinaje de cristo negro de Esquipulas y en un acto sexual, estos compadres se quedan pegados como castigo por haber cometido el adulterio. Esa es la leyenda. Y en esa piedra, pues se practica la espiritualidad maya, es decir a pocos ni siquiera un kilómetro de la de la basílica del cristo negro de Esquipulas, puedes ver esta piedra donde la gente coloca, [00:25:00] pues, sus candelas, su incienso y hay altares dedicados completamente a la espiritualidad maya dentro del mismo pueblo.Entonces esto va un poco aunado a lo que nos decía Anny no? Como la figura de cristo negro, también es muy representativa y es la reminiscencia de algo que se practicó muy fuertemente durante la época prehispánica.Yo no descartaría del todo, pues el valor de Ek-Chuah dentro de estas prácticas espirituales y que sí, definitivamente los españoles, trataron de tomar elementos de la de la espiritualidad maya que ya eran importantes para imponer la religión católica. Pero la gente maya, yo siempre lo digo, fue muy estratega y lo es hasta la fecha para continuar resistiendo, practicando, pues la espiritualidad tamizado con elementos católicos y con este significado profundo.Anny: Sí, yo también voy a coincidir un poquito en el [00:26:00] tema de no descartaría la relación que se tiene con Ek-Chuah, porque está asociado con la deidad Chortí. El otro punto que tú hablabas del tema, un tanto político, sí hay algunos historiadores, políticos que justamente, enuncian este uso de figuras que está asociada con el trabajo y sobretodo, digamos a la carga y explotación laboral de los campesinos, y cómo también estas zonas fueron como fuertemente impactadas durante el tiempo de la colonia. Entonces eso, yo tampoco lo, lo descartaría y tampoco diría que es un mito. Por ejemplo, yo, sé que la antigua población de Esquipulas, fue una de las ciudades en este punto incendiadas por los españoles durante la invasión aquí a Guatemala el 1525 verdad?[00:27:00] En el centro de la plaza de Esquipulas, según cómo lo relatan, decía que habían, cuatro árboles de de pochotl que es la ceiba, que la ceiba pues ahí si que para nosotros es un árbol sagrado, verdad? Porque bajo sus sombras, siempre se han realizado ceremonias vinculadas con prácticas agrícolas, que duraban desde el solsticio de invierno hasta el equinoccio de primavera.Entonces se iniciaban más o menos también en esta zona por el 21 de diciembre, pero tenían ritualidades más unciosas, por ejemplo, como el 15 de enero. Y de ahí que parte que una de las fechas propicias para visitar Esquipulas sea 15 de enero. Entonces, las otras fechas de celebración que iban entre el equinoccio y el solsticio.Del 15 de enero al 25 de febrero, más o menos 40 días. Porque en 40 días estábamos viendo que se operaba el paso del sol por el cenit en la otra banda del [00:28:00] trópico, en un punto en donde estaba hasta cierto punto equidistante del círculo máximo de la tierra, donde según la posición del sol, se tomaba la medida del tiempo en que se produciría el fenómeno de la tierra que ya fuera el fenómeno del niño o de la niña, como se le nombra, verdad?Exactamente, se hacía esto dentro de los días comprendidos del 20 al 31 de enero, que es cuando se operan como los fenómenos en los hemisferios, y de ahí es como de donde viene esta creencia de las cabañuelas, de cuando muy va iniciando el año más o menos por ahí, entonces hay como una relación también ciclo-agrícola y por eso es que a mí no se me hace como un mito el hecho que está asociado con Ek-Chuah porque Ek-Chuah de hecho está asociado con en este, no me gusta llamarlo Dios, pero con la energía del trabajo, verdad? Porque me parece que esa es como la expresión correcta. En cuanto a lo del señor de Esquipulas, la [00:29:00] relación de las ceremonias con la natividad de cristo, digamos, así como el establecimiento de la festividad del señor de Esquipulas el 15 de enero, pues si siguen teniendo continuidad con las formas religiosas prehispánicas en el área maya guatemalteca, los antiguos habitantes de Esquipulas, si hay un relato, de Castañeda que lo mencionan en lo en el 55 que se dice que , "adoraban a un Dios que era el protector de las siembras de la cosecha y del trabajo."Esto lo dice, este historiador "que seguramente él dice no pertenecía a las deidades mesoamericanas, especialmente al panteón mexica, universado en momentos previos a la llegada de los españoles. La representación antropomorfa de las deidades no era desconocida en Mesoamérica, por el contrario, era abundante y generalizada desde Sinaloa hasta Honduras. [00:30:00] Además, 'del Dios principal,' el comenta fray Diego Durán, 'él hace como una alusión, con Tezcatlipoca, que él dice era una piedra muy relumbrante y negra como azabache obsidiano. Piedra de la que ellos hacen navajas y cuchillos para cortar.' Además, ciudades era de palo entallada en una figura de un hombre todo negro de las sienes para abajo con la frente, narices y boca blanca, de color de indio bestia" dice él, "de algunos atavíos galanos a su indiano modo a lo primero que tenía era unos ojeras de oro y otras de plata. En el labio bajo tenía un bezote de laverde cristalino en el que está metida una pluma verde y otras veces es azul, que después de afuera parece esmeralda o rubí. Era este bezote como un geme de largo encima de coleta de caballos que tenían la cabeza. Entonces, lo que se puede apreciar en esta descripción [00:31:00] de Tezcatlipoca corresponde casi literalmente a lo que se pudo percibir como la primera figura del cristo negro, especialmente en la representación de las imágenes talladas en madera que se veneraban en las ciudades periféricas del imperio mexica. La diferencia en el atuendo de ambas deidades radican las connotaciones religiosas de cada una de las culturas, materias, simbologías, espirituales y atributos, pero en esencial es parecido e indescutible indiscutible.Recordemos que la celebración principal, digamos de la obsidiana de Tezcatlipoca y de lo que tú mencionabas relacionado con el tema de las lluvias, pues era justamente esto, la petición para que lloviera, sobre todo por ser tierras en este punto, muy áridas, muy secas . Y bueno, yo me quedo por aquí.Chris: Bueno, muchas gracias Anny y Jairo, para explicar un poco de eso. Entonces, [00:32:00] así, me gustaría preguntar cómo dar los cambios en los objetos de los mayas a los cristianos y la naturaleza de la peregrinación, hacia el turismo. Es una pregunta rara, pero, ¿Ustedes creen que los viejos alimentos, o energías, o antepasados todavía se alimentan?Es decir, para vivir en un lugar ya una década que tiene una sequía, que también saqueo, que va empeorando y empeorando, poco a poco me voy pensando si hay una falta de rezos de conocimiento, de recuerdo, de memoria, de ofrendas. Anny: Bueno, yo es en realidad esta sequía saqueo, esta crisis climática y toda la crisis alrededor de la tierra, a mí, en lo [00:33:00] personal y tanto en lo comunitario, a mí me parece que es una crisis a nivel comunitaria, nacional, mundial en donde todos los territorios, se han visto afectados. Por ejemplo, así como aquí en Guatemala, que tenemos zonas como muy áridas, muy secas, que por su propia condición geográfica en donde han estado, sin duda se ha intensificado en estos últimos años, derivado del saqueo del recurso natural, sobre todo en estas zonas del oriente de Guatemala que son montañas que están, pues ahí si que dedicadas a la explotación de material para la construcción. Hablemos de piedra, hablemos de arena, hablemos de cal, por ejemplo, y de otros elementos que son para la explotación minera. Así como hay otros aquí en Guatemala, donde pues la zona es bastante húmeda, pero sus montañas son [00:34:00] propicias para el oro, para la plata, para el cobre, para el zinc y para otros elementos. Entonces, yo si siento que aparte de que falte de repente un toj, un pagamento, o un Xukulem, como nosotros decimos, dar la gratitud a la tierra que sin duda, pues es evidente cuando, y eso es evidencia no solo en la explotación de la tierra, sino que es evidencia en el sentir de las personas, porque usualmente, se piensa que un peregrinaje únicamente es ir a ver una figura, verdad? O una persona, una deidad, un cristo, ir a esa energía y sentir la energía para yo recargarme, sin considerar que yo al momento que también me voy a recargar de esa energía, estoy siendo un tanto extractivista muchas veces con mi práctica. Pero mi práctica también va más allá de enajenarme de qué está pasando, porque si bien es cierto, tengo ahí al cristo negro frente a mí y soy muy devota, pero entender que el cristo negro también puede estar [00:35:00] presente en las montañas, en los ríos, en los valles, en los lagos, en las cuencas y en todo eso que a mí me da de comer, en todo eso que a mí me permite vivir. Entonces, yo creo que más allá de que falta un rezo, yo sí creo que falta mucha conciencia, mucho trabajo espiritual de hacerle ver a las personas, a los peregrinos, a las peregrinas que mi ruta de peregrinaje, o sea, por donde yo paso, existe porque hay un territorio, un territorio que es ajeno a mi territorio, pero que aun así yo paso porque voy a ver algo en específico, pero que eso también tiene un impacto y que eso también tiene una responsabilidad. Preocuparme por todo lo común que pasa alrededor de de mi territorio, de mi país, del mundo, por ejemplo. Entonces, Mas allá de yo decirte si mira, Chris, falta que la gente reze, falta que la gente ofrende para que ya no haya sequía, que si bien es cierto, tiene una parte súper importante, es muy espiritual y que nosotros que [00:36:00] hemos visto que es verdad. O sea, no es un mito, no es una mentira, sino que es verdad, pero tiene que ir de la mano la ritualidad con mi práctica, tiene que ir de la mano mi discurso con lo que yo estoy haciendo y con los enunciados y los postulados que yo tengo en mi compromiso con la tierra, verdad? Osea, para mí ese es como, como el punto focal, verdad?Jairo: Sí, Chris y Anny pues, también he de añadir que, mucho de la modernidad y la facilidad para poder llegar a establecer una ruta de peregrinaje, también, pues influye dentro de las prácticas sociales y culturales, y pues si de tal vez, una ofrenda o un rezo, también estoy de acuerdo con Anny en ese sentido, es la conciencia de las personas, no? Y no se trata en el caso de la gente, pues católica de ser anticuados y de decir, bueno, vamos a irnos callados todo el [00:37:00] camino, aunque eso es una práctica que hacía la gente antes, verdad? Lo nombro como la gente antigua de Mixco lo dice. Ya no se tiene el respeto, dice la gente, por llegar y ir en una ruta de oración y de pedir o de agradecer. Y pues, por tanto, llevar una actitud de respeto, sino que ya se toma como un viaje de excursión y puede llegar a pasar, cualquier cosa dentro de ese viaje a excepción que se visita a la basílica y se visita a cristo negro. Pero dentro de ese viaje también de muchas personas ya no toman en cuenta el significado, o siquiera la ruta en la que están atravesando, verdad?Creo que es parte de la influencia occidental, de alguna forma de los medios también, que no han difundido pues, esta historia, porque esto que estamos hablando no te lo cuentan en los medios de comunicación. Ni siquiera dentro de la iglesia católica. La iglesia católica te dice que está cristo negro de Esquipulas, que es un día reconocido [00:38:00] dentro de la espiritualidad, por así decirlo, guatemalteca, religiosidad popular, como querramos llamarlo, pero no te hacen este trasfondo histórico que hay dentro de él, verdad?Pues la iglesia católica se encarga de lo litúrgico si vamos a llamarlo de esa forma, se hace una misa, se participa dentro de las misas. Pues hay frailes franciscanos que están constantemente bendiciendo lo que se compra como souvenir dentro del lugar. Pero que más que una oración que haga falta, creo que si hace falta entender un poco más que es lo que estamos haciendo, pero pues es parte del cambio socio cultural influido, como digo por lo occidental de alguna forma, que está permeando pues esta memoria histórica en cuanto a la visita del cristo negro. No digo que deje de ser fuerte porque esto tiene muchísima fuerza todavía dentro del contexto mesoamericano.Chris: Claro, claro, [00:39:00] gracias a ustedes dos. Pues la mayoría de las pláticas en el podcast, son críticas, de lo que falta, lo que no hay, en en el mundo, en la cuestión del movimiento de viaje de devoción también, y agradecimiento.Bueno es obvio como las dinámicas transaccionales o capitalistas, etc afectan los movimientos de la gente. Cómo se proceden, como llegan, como piensen en sus movimientos, también queremos pensar en otros mundos, y parte de eso, tiene que ver con lo que algunos llaman la hospitalidad radical. Es decir, como lo más básico, según yo, la hospitalidad local, enraizado, para el extraño o extranjero o extranjera, etc. Entonces, tengo curiosidad por saber ¿Qué tipo de hospitalidad [00:40:00] radical ustedes han encontrado en Esquipulas o en la peregrinación, si es que han encontrado algo.Anny: Bueno, no te voy a hablar como mucho de esto, porque no tengo como una experiencia, porque no ha sido mi búsqueda también, como encontrar esto. Siento que es como un paso como más personal individual, quizá de de soledad, pero de de sentirte bien en el, así que solo, en el buen sentido.Te puedo decir que hay gente que tiene como muchas experiencias, verdad? De de encontrarse con las personas que abren las puertas de su casa para que estén, para que visiten, para que entren. Claro, ahorita pues mucha situación ha cambiado. Siento que la seguridad ya no es la misma. La situación que atraviesa Guatemala. La conflictividad que se ha ido acrecentando en estos últimos años con estas [00:41:00] miradas fascistas también, con la división entre iglesias, por ejemplo, entre protestantes fascistas, radicales, y protestantes neopentecostales. Y todavía medio que la iglesia evangélica presbiteriana, que es la que intenta mediar entre ambas y la iglesia católica. Todo esto, además que el oriente de Guatemala está catalogado como zonas de bastante menudeo de narco, corredores de narcotráfico también. Entonces, todas estas situaciones políticas y geopolíticas han ido modificando mucho el hecho de que tú busques tu propia protección y que la gente también, cuando no son épocas de de peregrinaje, no tiendan a abrir sus casas, sino que quizás las abren más como para cuando hay un poquito más de afluencia, pero ya es como muy poco ver este tipo de dinámicas. Lo otro es que mucha gente mayor, digamos de la zona ya ha [00:42:00] fallecido. Y pues ha quedado como gente joven, inclusive gente que no es ya de Esquipulas, sino que por tema laboral ha migrado ahí, entonces ya va perdiendo como un sentido de pertenencia, verdad? De como ese sentido de comunidad. Pero si algo yo puedo rescatar de hace como mucho tiempo y que nos queda de repente el bonito recuerdo y la historia que quizá Jairo quiere hablar ahí un poquito, es de cómo se fueron tejiendo ciertas rutas comerciales entre por ejemplo, Oaxaca, Mixco y la gente de que aprovechaba para ir a Esquipulas. Y también como pensar cómo fueron cambiando también los productos de consumo, porque ahora, pues, vemos una invasión de productos plásticos, verdad? Provenientes de China, de estas grandes pirámides de estafa que y de explotación de mano de obra en Malasia, que te viene producto chino también de por allá o de la india, por ejemplo. Vemos como la entrada de mucho de este, [00:43:00] de este producto, verdad?Entonces tampoco es que podamos estar hablando como de esta comunidad, o de encontrar como redes de comunidad en cuanto a la economía o en cuanto a la producción, porque es ahí si que tú sabes que el capitalismo es voraz y la globalización y todos estos factores que están pasando en este momento son muy crueles con las dinámicas y las formas de vida de acuerparnos, de querernos, de apapacharnos y que se intensifica cada vez más.Creo que ahí si que lo importante es, nombrarlo para que si alguien quizá no se había dado cuenta de cómo se han ido afectando las dinámicas. Pues ahora lo, se se pueda ver, verdad? Y que a veces también es un poco como egoísta de mi parte, porque ves ahí vamos al hecho de que, como yo solo lo voy una vez allá, pues no me importa al final, como si tejo o no tejo, verdad? Puede ser que sea el pensamiento de alguien, verdad? Bueno, yo [00:44:00] solo voy una vez, yo voy a lo que voy y no me importa pues si hay alguien ahí que me pueda acuerpar, recibir o lo que sea.Entonces también como estas dinámicas, estos pensamientos frívolos que también por la misma dinámica de la vida, de la economía y demás, se intensifican no? Entonces, pues yo pues yo, eso te podría decir.Jairo: Si, dentro de como el capitalismo, el sistema capitalista, ha influido también dentro de estas dinámicas. Yo puedo nombrar puntualmente durante las últimas veces que he ido a Esquipulas, justo desde acá de Mixco, como pues lo económico ha afectado, o sea, el nivel socioeconómico también determina lo que vas a llegar a hacer verdad? Porque muchas personas de que vienen de acá, ni siquiera pues ya piensan en hospedarse, sino que van en la noche, madrugada de un día, y se quedan en [00:45:00] el bus o solo van y peregrinan, rezan, dejan sus candelas, no se paga hotel y regresan, verdad? Eso ha sido en un par de ocasiones. Si bien, pues hay ahora opciones de hospedaje digámoslo de diferentes tipos, que se suelen reservar con anticipación. También está esta otra situación, que también deja un poco de lado a lo que se solía hacer de preparar comida, de llevar ya huevos duros, como le decimos nosotros, huevos cocidos con salsa de tomate, eso es muy de viajar en este contexto de Mixco, los tamales de viaje que les llamaban también que es básicamente pasta de maíz cocida con la tusa, que es la cáscara del maíz. Estos tamales, pues servían para eso, para poder mermar el hambre mientras se llegaba a Esquipulas y que ahora esto ha sido poco a poco reemplazado justo lo que nombraba Anny, por productos pre-elaborados, frituras, que no tienen ningún [00:46:00] sustento, ni siquiera enlazan, con la memoria de la cocina, sino que técnicamente es algo que se desecha. Y claro, la basura, también otro papel importante, porque tenemos poca educación o ninguna en cuanto al ambiente y las empresas que nos hacen responsables de sus paquetes, de sus sobrecitos, de sus botellas y todo esto, resulta en los caminos y, pues sí, es una ruta de peregrinaje, pero también hay basura plástica, verdad? Dentro de esa ruta de peregrinaje. Y, pues, nombrar también, este era un poquito la cereza del del pastel que yo quería dejar para esta conversación, porque, como las dinámicas económicas han afectado rutas comerciales y de peregrinaje que puede que lleven alrededor de 2 mil años de existir, verdad? Tu que te desenvuelves en Oaxaca, puedes preguntar sobre cristo negro de Esquipulas y vas a encontrar a mucha gente que es devota al cristo negro de Esquipulas [00:47:00] y que probablemente tengan una réplica, pues en varios lugares de Oaxaca. Sobre todo el área, pues de el Istmo, verdad? En el, en el área también, zapoteca, vas a encontrar mucha gente que es devota y producto, pues de ello eso, ya lo tenemos, pues registrado antropológicamente. Ya no se da, pero gracias a las abuelas de mi pueblo esto sobrevive y es como nosotros, como Mixco estamos en medio de una ruta comercial entre básicamente, el centro de México y el oriente de Guatemala que está hacia allá. Entonces, pues Esquipulas está casi, en un punto distinto a esta ruta, verdad?Pues hay una memoria de de cómo nuestra gente antigua de Mixco interactuaba comercialmente con gente que venía del centro de México. Y esto lo tenemos evidente en el uso de la indumentaria maya del Poqomam de Mixco, que tiene muchísima influencia de la indumentaria que viene del pueblo [00:48:00] zapoteca, y del pueblo mixteca, en Oaxaca y producto de ello, sé que en el audio no saldrá, pero lo voy a describir. Tenemos acá estas fajas, estas fajas vienen de santo Tomás Jalieza en Oaxaca. Las famosas fajas de Jalieza, que se utilizan en Oaxaca y que formaban parte de la indumentaria antigua de Mixco. Esto cambió más o menos a mediados de los años 60s.Hay memoria, yo escuché de boca de muchas de las señoras antiguas de acá de mi pueblo que decían, venían las mexicanas a vendernos ropa, técnicamente, pero no es la ruta de Tapachula moderna, ahora que se va por la costa, sino que se refieren a textiles. Y esto encontramos fotos, inclusive fotografías del siglo 19, de finales del siglo 19, principios del siglo 20 en el que vemos el uso de estas fajas, y las reconocemos técnicamente por esta figura que seguro, pues ya la, la verás más representada en en Oaxaca. [00:49:00] La gente acá en Mixco le dice a esto los bailadores, en Oaxaca les tienen un nombre, ahora específicamente, no lo recuerdo, pero es gracias a este danzante o bailador que reconocemos las fajas que vienen de ese lugar porque en Guatemala no encuentras ninguna otra faja que sea de este material, porque es lana, o bien puede ser bastante grueso el tejido en telar de cintura con estos diseños.Entonces, gracias a Abisaí Navarro, que ojalá pueda escuchar este material, es un amigo que es de Oaxaca, quien conocí por las redes sociales, en quien básicamente se ha dedicado a documentar las expresiones culturales también de Oaxaca y de la espiritualidad en los pueblos mixteca y zapoteca. Y él me envió estas fajas desde Oaxaca. Osea, yo ya no puedo decir las compré con señoras oaxaqueñas. Yo como mixqueño, no las compré con ellas porque ahora vienen en bus, la dinámica comercial cambió y además en Mixco ya no se usa la [00:50:00] indumentaria maya, de uso diario. Este es por un lado, y por el otro lado, también tenemos a este otro lugar que se llama Yalalag, que es gente zapoteca también, en el cual usan esta prenda sobre la cabeza, ellos le llaman tlacoyales o rodetes, que consiste pues en lana cruda, de de oveja teñida, colocado sobre la cabeza, que es la emulación, pues a una serpiente. Esto, pues, tampoco esto no lo traje de Oaxaca, esto lo conseguí pues gracias a una historiadora justamente de Chichicastenango que Anny conoce, María Jacinta Xón, ella pues su papá se dedicó muchísimo tiempo, y ella también se ha dedicado, pues a la elaboración de hilos y a la obtención de la seda, y el papá de ella que ya descansa, pues fue con quien pudimos investigar un poco de dónde venía esta lana. Esta lana ya no se produce ni siquiera en Chichicastenango, en el contexto de Anny, sino [00:51:00] que básicamente esta es la última que él tuvo la oportunidad de teñir, pero es exactamente la misma lana que inclusive él desconocía su procedencia sin pintar, de dónde venía.Y ahora esto ni siquiera aquí en Guatemala se consigue, entonces es la evidencia de cómo Mixco en medio de una ruta comercial entre básicamente todo el área de el Istmo y la costa sur hacia el oriente de Guatemala, que es otro mundo que, de no haber llegado la invasión española y de no haber este sistema que de alguna forma ha ladinizado decimos nosotros, o sea despojado de su identidad a la gente maya. Y, pues, tendríamos una gran diversidad también de personas en aquel territorio. Y pues es un poco de las dos prendas que acá en Mixco se utilizan todavía por las mujeres que participan en las cofradías, pero los nos hace pensar en las mujeres de Oaxaca también. Es bien curioso. Tengo un video que lo describe, si gustan lo pueden ver allá en mis redes sociales, [00:52:00] aparezco como "hoja de pacaya" y hay un video donde hablo de esto del tecoyal justamente.Anny: Si, Chris y algo que yo, quería como agregar nada más a la conversación. Es el hecho de que, en medio de esta forma de turismo que muchas veces es gentrificador y que también como que estas dinámicas de ir y venir hace que justamente todo alrededor de lo que sucede en Esquipulas pues cambie su dinámica Si bien es cierto, ahora cuando vas tú a Esquipulas, ya hay hoteles de repente, tal vez no de cadena, pero si de cinco estrellas. La gente ha intentado mantener hoteles que sean como de su familia. Pero eso no quita, por ejemplo, que ya haya más lugares de recreación, de consumo, de compra y de intercambio comercial.Porque pues tú sabes que al final, la situación económica, creo que a nivel mundial no es del todo buena para ninguno, [00:53:00] verdad? Entonces, pues siempre se busca la manera como de irte agenciando de ciertos fondos. Pero, ahora que lo pienso mejor, digamos en esta conversación, yo si puedo ver algo muy especial. Por ejemplo, aquí en Guatemala, hay dos lugares más en donde hay peregrinación a ver a cristo negro, que no tienes que ir a Esquipulas y que lo encuentras, aquí, de de donde yo vivo más o menos es a una hora, se llama Chinique de Las Flores. Y luego de Chinique de Las Flores a más o menos como unas tres horas, puedes llegar a Cunén. Cunén, también aquí en K'iche', que son estas, rutas de peregrinación para ir a ver también, réplicas del cristo negro de Esquipulas, pero que entonces ahí si te puedo decir que estamos encontrando aquello que una vez encontramos en Esquipulas [00:54:00] hace más de 400 años por así decirlo, 300 años.Entonces, lo estamos volviendo a encontrar ahí porque, claro, son zonas todavía de pronto un poco más pequeñas, en donde todavía el ambiente es más, comunal, comunitario, en donde, pues todavía es de pueblo, le decimos nosotros, todavía sí que está la esencia conservada de un pueblo. Entonces no se convierte en un lugar para ir a quedarte y pasar ahí una semana, que sé yo, sino que se convierte en un lugar de visita, de recogimiento de sí, ir a hacer tu tu peregrinaje, tu oración, tu penitencia.Entonces, a mí me parece que ahí todavía es en donde, donde se encuentra una esencia muy, muy rica.Chris: Pues, gracias a las energías, a los dioses y dioses que todavía hay lugares y gente que honran esas, esas tradiciones y las de también como Jairo [00:55:00] mencionó, que pues la memoria también está pegado dentro del textil, de tejido, justo tambien he visto como una una bebida chocolatosa tradicional aquí en Oaxaca que, según algunas personas tiene su origen en en el K'iche'. Aunque, se dice que ese proceso, esa receta no existe en el K'iche' ahora, pero todavía la memoria existe dentro de esas prácticas no? Entonces la cuestión de la hiper movilidad y el sentido de guerra constante en muchos sentidos en el el mundo contemporáneo, ¿Cómo piensan que, la peregrinación o las posibilidades de peregrinar pueden ofrecernos una manera, o maneras, o caminos a [00:56:00] socobar, la hiper movilidad, a la guerra, la comida chatarra como mencionaron, estas dinámicas y estructuras económicas que, pues nos están matando poco a poco? ¿Qué clave puede tener la peregrinación en un mundo donde queremos vivir?Anny: Pues yo creo que la responsabilidad de cada uno de nosotros que, que vamos con llevar también mensajes de esperanza, o sea, siempre hay rutas no? Está la ruta migratoria, está la ruta de la mariposa monarca. Está que esa peregrinación que hacen, van y vienen, y estas peregrinaciones que nosotros también hacemos como personas humanas, independientemente de si seamos cristianos o no, pero siempre hay una ruta que tú buscas de peregrinaje para sanar tus [00:57:00] dolores, tus enfermedades, tus traumas, tus miedos, así sea que tú vayas a peregrinar a una montaña, un volcán, un cerro, a una iglesia, a una basílica a donde sea.A mí lo importante, y lo que me parece a mi súper esperanzador es que tú tengas como también ese compromiso de compartir una luz con quienes tú te vayas encontrando en el camino. Puede ser que también tu peregrinaje entonces no parta desde el hecho de, ah voy a ir pensando solo en rezos, no, sino que, ¿Qué también puedo yo compartir en el camino?O sea que otras rutas también puedo ir yo dejando, mencionando, creo que esto lo hemos logrado con bastante efectividad cuando pensamos en las rutas migratorias y como podemos echarle una mano a les compas migrantes verdad?, Entonces a mí me parecería que una estrategia pues muy parecida, podría ayudar bastante, a ver esto con otros ojos y a ver esto, pues más allá de, [00:58:00] o sea, que que siempre podemos hacer varias cosas, cuando tenemos de repente solo una finalidad, pero al final podemos ir haciendo como mucho, entonces yo creo que como mensaje yo, eso te dejaría, o sea que, pues al final en medio de toda esta hiper movilidad, pues que la aprovechemos, no solo para quemar codos, sino para ir dejando otros mensajes a la gente, verdad? De cómo también nos vamos moviendo, movilizando, qué vamos pensando y qué está pasando alrededor del mundo. Jairo: Sí, bueno, entender que nuestras dinámicas han cambiado con el tiempo, que somos una generación que nos tocó ver cambios abismales dentro de las dinámicas de como nos hemos relacionado con otras personas, cómo aprendemos incluso porque ahora pues gracias a la hiper movilidad también, inclusive, pues a la tecnología conocemos nuevas cosas, pero no dejar de lado el en el caso, pues de la gente que peregrina, verdad? Las [00:59:00] reflexiones que hacíamos, el por qué se hace, un poquito, y también el que hacer de nosotros cuando vamos a un lugar y cuando nos movemos, verdad? El hecho de verdad estoy comprando con las personas que son de allí o me estoy yendo a meter un supermercado, de verdad esto beneficia la comunidad o esto beneficia a una empresa, pues que al final explota personas y que les compra super barato y regateado el producto, verdad? Creo que se ha mantenido, pues al menos en Esquipulas esa dinámica de consumir, pues lo que es de allí, la gente, pues esfuerza mucho porque saben que hay, personas de muchos contextos que vienen a ese lugar, por lo menos una vez al año. Entonces, entender estas dinámicas, creo que es un reto también dentro de nuestro contexto y entender también que el humano siempre se ha movido. Gracias a las personas [01:00:00] antiguas que se movieron hace 3 mil años hacia acá es que nosotros tenemos estas evidencias históricas y aprender de esas movilidades también, cómo nosotros generamos un buen impacto cuando nos estamos moviendo, pienso.Chris: Que vamos aprendiendo y recordando a la vez, cómo movernos con respeto y agradecimiento y devoción a lo que nos da vida. Vamos a asegurar que las imágenes de esos textiles hermosas, van a salir con el episodio, en el sitio web web de El Fin del Turismo. Y también los nombres y contactos si quieren de los compas que mencionaste Jairo. Y pues ha sido como un gran conversación, y me dan muchas ganas de seguir con esa [01:01:00] cuestión de peregrinación.Y en el nombre de de nuestros oyentes, me gustaría ofrecerles mis a agradecimientos más sinceros a ambos ustedes por acompañarnos hoy, y estar dispuestos a enfrentar y luchar con algunas de las contradicciones y pues también las colonizaciones que han afectado al acto y al arte de la peregrinación en nuestros tiempos. Si los oyentes tienen ganas a conocer más de lo que ustedes hacen en la vida, ¿Hay una manera de comunicar o conectar?Anny: Sí, por supuesto, en nuestras redes personales, yo soy la curadora en jefe actual de Espacio C, en Chichicastenango, entonces pues por ahí pueden , encontrarme en Instagram, o en Facebook, se escribe [01:02:00] ESPACIO/C ARTE+MEMORIA. Y luego en mis redes personales, por si alguien pues también desea buscar. Yo me encuentro en Instagram como "Anny Puac," así me pueden encontrar a mí también en Instagram para que pues vean, de pronto un poquito también de, de mi trabajo y, luego en nuestras redes comerciales como Los Cofrades Chichicastenango, así me pueden, nos pueden ir encontrando y pues ahora Jairo.Jairo: Gracias. Yo he tratado de crear contenido no de lleno, tampoco tan comercial. He hecho reflexiones en cuanto a estos elementos, ahí sí que de ambos lados, verdad? De la espiritualidad en Guatemala en general, tanto de lo católico como de lo maya, y cómo esto tiene un punto medular, es un poquito lo que ha sido mi [01:03:00] premisa durante los últimos años, evidenciar que no es netamente todo católico, cristiano y que hay elementos pues de la espiritualidad maya que prevalecen como lo que hablamos hoy.Me pueden encontrar pues, como Hoja de Pacaya en las redes sociales. La hoja de pacaya es la que se usa para decorar en las puertas de las fiestas acá en el contexto pues de Guatemala. La pacaya es una palma. También se come la flor durante los viajes, justo durante los peregrinajes. La flor de la pacaya se envuelve con huevo y se le pone salsa de tomate encima y es algo muy para viajar. Y pues, a la hoja de pacaya le dicen dentro del contexto guatemalteco a las personas que les gusta la fiesta y que no se pierden ninguna.Entonces es un poco la premisa de mi usuario, porque pues sí, me gusta documentar las fiestas, pues que se llevan a cabo en Guatemala con trasfondo, quizá de análisis [01:04:00] y de reflexión. Y pues, gracias por el espacio. Estoy muy agradecido por ello, a ambos. Chris: De nuevo, muchísimas gracias a ustedes dos por sus tiempos hoy, por sus reflexiones y sus compromisos en el mundo, en la vida. Anny: Qué gusto conocerte también. Y pues ahí estamos siempre en comunicación. Yo te de con un fuerte abrazo y no haber un fuerte abrazo a tierra que de Oaxaca también.English TranscriptionChris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast The End of Tourism Annie and Jairo. Thank you both for joining me today. I would love for you to tell our listeners where you are calling from and what the world looks like there for each of you.Anny: Thank you very much, Chris, and good morning to everyone listening, or good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone.My name is Anny and I greet you from the K'iche' Mayan territory of Chuwila, K'iche' Guatemala specifically.Jairo: Good morning to both of you, it's a pleasure to be here. Sawe ta inteer winaq (Good morning to all of you) a pleasure from the Poqomam territory of Mixco and also from the outskirts of Guatemala City, thank you for this [00:01:00] opportunity to share knowledge.Chris: And thank you both. I'm here in Oaxaca and the world seems obviously a little weird. Well, maybe not obviously, but it seems weirder by the day. We're here today to talk about Esquipulas in Guatemala. And Esquipulas is the site of several churches that have housed the Black Christ of the town, which is famous for its supposed miracles for the past four centuries.Similarly, the pilgrimage to the shrine is the largest in Central America and the second largest in the Americas, with, from what I read, 5 million people visiting it every year. Now, to start, would you be willing to explain what prompted each of [00:02:00] your interests or relationships with this place and the practice of pilgrimage?Anny: Yes, of course Chris. Well, from my personal or individual relationship as a family, I have, let's say, a clear idea of when these pilgrimages began, suddenly, when I was about seven or eight years old, so, to tell you that I have clarity, but when I go back to the family archives, well, I see that the issue of going on pilgrimage to Esquipulas, well, it begins with my grandmothers.Jairo: So I could tell you that within my family, the pilgrimage to Esquipulas, well, maybe it has been present in the family for at least 80 years, especially on my maternal grandmother's side . She is from a K'iche' territory in Quetzaltenango , where they would begin the trip, together, there was a neighborhood trip organized by the neighborhood, or it was a family trip, so one or two buses would go at that time when there wasn't much transportation, right? It was also a luxury to go by some route where there was a bus stop. And well, what couldn't be traveled by bus, well, it was done on foot, they used donkeys, but, more or less that's where the story of how these pilgrimage routes began in my family, let's say.In our case, I was not aware of having arrived in Esquipulas when I was little. Well, there is a very interesting fact, when I was 40 days old, my family decided to take me to [00:04:00] Esquipulas, so that is in the family's photo archive as a thank you, because in the end I was born with... I was born well.Jairo: And then the family decides to go on a pilgrimage. This is the closest information I have about the person going to Esquipulas. Of course, I have always been very familiar with this within my immediate context, since people from my municipality tend to go organized in excursions from the different religious organizations that exist in my municipality.These, well, designate dates and are buses filled with approximately 50 people. Each bus usually arrives up to three, from here in Mixco, well, they go to Esquipulas. And that is something very interesting because it is, well, part of modernity, let's say going by bus, but there are many anecdotes from people from here in town who [00:05:00] tell how, well, they went in a more rustic way, right? It could be, well, on a walking pilgrimage, which was not the only pilgrimage, in fact that of the black Christ of Esquipulas. Today, specifically, we are going to talk about it.But there are also the pilgrimages to Antigua Guatemala, which is very close by. Here behind us there is a hill called Alux Hill. This hill was crossed on foot, and people still do so on foot, because behind the hill is the descent to get to Antigua Guatemala.Chris: Thank you. Thank you all. So, to learn a little more about your stories, like the pilgrimage, I would like to know a little more if you could offer something about the long history of Esquipulas, of the black Christ and well, how did the pilgrimage originate? Where does that story come from?Jairo: Well, as I mentioned before, saying some [00:06:00] words in the Poqomam language. It is the language that was spoken, well, in our town. I'm going to say it again more slowly to, well, describe to you what I said, technically it is:closely related and intrinsic to the people of Mixco and also to the Oaxacan territory.My name is Jairo, Jairo Andrés Chamale Lemus. I belong to this territory, to the Poqomam Mayan people. Half of my family and my ancestors are from here. And, well, I am dedicated to tourism. I have been a tourist guide for approximately eight years , since I graduated very young. And, well, I have dedicated myself to pilgrimages so that people also learn about the historical context of Guatemala and the different cultural, religious and also resistance expressions of the people in the territory of what we now know as Guatemala.Well, I am also a student of anthropology, specifically a bachelor's degree in anthropology, and I have also dedicated myself to studying the case of the Poqomam Mayan language in Mixco, which is a community very close to Guatemala City, which has had a very strong demographic and social impact, due to the growth of the metropolitan area of Guatemala City. It is something that I have dedicated myself to studying during the last few years. And also, well, to [00:08:00] documenting it, because we have many cultural and spiritual practices in our town, which have been disappearing as the city's demographic advances, thank you very much. Rontyoox aq'oo ta Anny: Well Chris . In fact there is a record, let's say historical , which says that the first pilgrimage to Esquipulas was in March 1595 , when the image left the workshop of this sculptor Quirio Cataño, heading towards Esquipulas, towards Chiquimula. This is in the east of Guatemala. We know it as the hot zone of Guatemala. But it is the zone, let's say, like hot arid . It is a territory where there is a Xinca, Popti' community, if I'm not mistaken, Chortí as well . And so, the production that is [00:09:00] They have in the lands over there, we are talking about fruits from some plants, some tubers more or less, but most of them are dedicated to fruit, right ?This first pilgrimage is documented and recorded by the chronicler, who is called Miguel Álvarez. And he says that, when he left from the workshop and headed towards Esquipulas, the image was performing different miracles along the way until reaching the basilica . Then there were people who asked him precisely that, please, that the image spend at least one night inside the house of people to bless it. And more or less it is estimated every year, let's say currently, now in Guatemala and around 300 thousand people from all over the world, mostly between Mexico, Central America, southern countries, for example from Peru [00:10:00] from Ecuador from Ecuador, Bolivia, if I'm not mistaken, it is like a lot of people who arrive, more or less between November, which right now is like a date from November to December and all of January, let's say, those are like the three months with the greatest influx of people who arrive at the basilica, right? So you can call it a pilgrimage , you can call it a pilgrimage, what pilgrimage, usually, well there if the people who visit can do like a day's visit only or it can be that a visit can be extended for up to 10, 15 days, right?From Guatemala City to Esquipulas there is a distance of approximately 220 to 250 kilometers and if you go on a pilgrimage, you go through very specific places along the entire pilgrimage, on average [00:11:00] Every day you are doing a stretch of 40 kilometers, a day, let's say if your intention is to go on a pilgrimage like that . So that's more or less like more historical data and the story, right?Chris: And I'm a little curious, inside the estancias, when I arrive at Esquipulas, if I were on a pilgrimage, for example, what would I do? Do they stop to say their prayers? I would like to know from someone who has never made a pilgrimage, how it looked those days before coming.Anny: Well, I'm going to tell you a little bit about my family's story because My maternal grandmother, she was a lady, very Catholic, right? So, for her, her pilgrimage, let's say, was her sacrifice, right? In the year, to say well, out of gratitude [00:12:00] to my health, to the miracles that she granted me, because she was very devout. It was the fact of going on a pilgrimage route. What did this imply? Even preparing food so as to not say waste time, thinking about what to eat along the way, because the idea for them was, well, to go in a kind of contemplation, in constant prayer, in prayer, let's say in petition, to stop every so often, right? Every 40 kilometers, because within the Catholic-Christian community, there are points that are marked within the route where you can stop with each family, because they may have a replica of the image of the black Christ, because in fact, when the first pilgrimage was, this family may have been one of the [00:13:00] families who first received the black Christ.So it becomes like that stopping point, right? So, when they make that stopping point, they go down. They go down to pray, they go down to talk and to socialize with people, maybe, to share a meal. And to feel, well, like thei

In this episode of The Building Texas Business Podcast, I spoke with Brian Freedman, president of the Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership, about the region's economic development. We explored the five major industry clusters shaping the area: maritime logistics, aerospace, tourism, healthcare, and petrochemicals. Brian shared updates on aerospace innovations at Ellington Field, including projects by Intuitive Machines and Axiom, while highlighting new opportunities in defence manufacturing. I learned about Project 11, an initiative to expand the Houston port's capacity for larger vessels. Brian explained how this infrastructure project connects to the broader transportation network, particularly the role of trucking in regional commerce. We discussed how the partnership works with legislators and industry leaders to address challenges like insurance costs and maintain economic momentum. The conversation shifted to leadership approaches and team dynamics in Texas business. Brian described how maintaining diverse projects keeps his team engaged and motivated. We explored how the Houston area supports entrepreneurs through community partnerships and mentorship programs while adapting to technological changes like AI integration. Our discussion wrapped up with a look at workforce development in the region. Brian explained how educational partnerships are building talent pipelines across industries. We covered the importance of aligning training programs with business needs while fostering collaboration between municipalities, educational institutions, and industry partners. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I spoke with Brian Freedman, president of the Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership, about the economic development in the Houston Bay Area, focusing on the recruitment, retention, and expansion of primary employers. We discussed the significant industry clusters in the region, including maritime logistics, aerospace, tourism, healthcare, and petrochemicals, and their impact on the area's economic growth. Brian highlighted developments at Ellington Field, including contributions from companies like Intuitive Machines and Axiom, as well as the emerging opportunities in defense manufacturing and procurement. The episode explored the scale and impact of the Houston port, emphasizing Project 11's role in expanding the port's capacity and the importance of logistics and innovation for regional prosperity. We delved into the leadership style necessary for motivating teams and managing diverse projects, underscoring the Texan entrepreneurial spirit characterized by ambition and a collaborative approach. Brian shared insights on the vibrant business ecosystem in Texas, driven by a skilled workforce, affordability, and a supportive community fostering partnerships and mentorship opportunities. Finally, we addressed challenges like insurance costs and the importance of regional solidarity, as well as efforts to mitigate natural disaster risks and promote responsible development in the area. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About BAHEP GUESTS Brian FreedmanAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Brian Freedman, president of the Bay Area Houston Economic Partnership. Brian shares how his organization works to recruit, retain and expand primary employers in the greater Houston Bay Area region. Brian, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for joining us today. Brian: Hey, thank you, Chris. Honored to be here and great to catch up. Chris: Yes, likewise. So let's start with you. You're the president and the organizational name's kind of long it's Bay Area, houston Economic Partnership. Tell the listeners a little bit about what that organization is and what it does, to kind of put the rest of our conversation into context. Brian: Sure, so BayHEP is the short version of it. So we're the Regional Economic Development Group and kind of the, as I like to say, in the Houston-Galveston region. We're three o'clock to six o'clock on the watch, face right. So we kind of go out 225, all the municipalities and cities going out east and then going down south 45. We go a little west of 45, but really that 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock and we're really focused on how do you recruit, retain and expand primary employers in the region with the idea that if you can get great companies located here and have a group of industry clusters that are cranking away every day, that we can have a great place to live. We have great involved residents that are in this area and opportunities for the folks who live here and kind of build what the future will look like for this region. So a lot of good stuff going on and, happy to get into that a little further, we do economic development, recruitment, retention projects. So how do we get companies here? We do some grants and then we're a membership organization is how we're funded. So we have about 300 members, 19 municipal members, Harrison-Galveston County, the port, the airport system. It's really how do you get the leaders of a region to work together to advance what we're doing here. Chris: Wow, I mean that's it sounds like it's easier to say and harder to do coordinating that many organizations and trying to get everybody pulling the same direction. Brian: Yeah, it's a lot of fun and we get to work with a lot of great folks. That's how we met Chris, is that, you know, through some of our mutual connections. But yeah, you know, it's really when you can get generally like-minded folks thinking about what the future of a region will look like and pretty aligned and working towards that effort, it's more of a well, it's just fun and you can create a lot of impact and we're seeing that and I'll be happy to dive into some of the specific projects we're working down here. But I mean, you guys do it too at Boyer Miller. Y'all are working with clients all over the spectrum of types of industry and you have to adapt to what's coming up, what's at you, and be ready for that kind of stuff. Chris: Yeah, no doubt. So yeah let's jump into some stuff. Let's talk first, because when I think of your area, obviously the first thing that comes to mind is NASA and all that's going on around that, and that leads me to technology and innovation. So what are some of the emerging technologies or trends that you're seeing that are kind of helping shape the future of Texas and kind of the business opportunities, at least in your region and for Texas? Brian: Yeah, so I call it kind of the big five on the industry cluster. So everybody thinks about this area for NASA, which we love right, because it really is a crown jewel out here, but I call it the big five right Maritime and all the associated logistics with the port aerospace and aviation, so nasa, but also the great work that the airport system is doing with ellington and hobby, tourism and recreation, health care and all the hospitals that have campuses down here, and then specialty and petrochemical and the energy industry partners and every one of those ecosystem has a ton of stuff going on. So I'm happy to talk about some of those more granular. But a couple of observations. One is that often overlooked in this community and really an asset to the greater Houston region is Ellington Field, ellington Airport, the Spaceport and, if you haven't seen or heard about it, the work that's going on at the Spaceport. They have three new beautiful buildings. One is occupied by Intuitive Machines who just put the first commercial lander payload on the surface of the moon. One is occupied by a company called Axiom that's building the next generation of commercial spacesuits and the next generation space station, and Collins who do spacesuit design in our building and maintaining the current spacesuits. They've set up huge facilities down there and so new stuff coming on. But I'm equally excited about just across the runway is the 147th Reserve Group. So there's a reserve unit out there, a reserve base, and the defense opportunities are pretty exciting. So that's highlighted by the 147th. But almost every branch has a reserve unit out there, save the Space Force, and we're working on that. And so the opportunities with defense manufacturing to come out to do more work in Houston and some of their innovation units and, as mundane as it sounds, some of the procurement opportunities, because when it comes to contracting, having a group of folks here would be a great opportunity for Houston businesses to then pipeline the work that they're doing into the broader defense industry, which can be really exciting. One other thing I'll mention, chris, is if you just look at the path of predictable growth for Houston, right, it keeps going out and we see that on our freeways every day. So there are growing pains that come with that, but for our region it's that steady march down Interstate 45. And so while Clear Lake Lake City are starting to get to fully built out and we're looking at what is the next generation of building look like, what's redevelopment look like For communities Dickinson, hitchcock, santa Fe, to some extent Texas City. Although they've got quite an industrial complex too, there's still space, and so it really brings up the opportunity of we can handle big projects, and whether they're industrial or tourism, there's a lot of opportunity that comes with that. And so, as folks you know, as we get built out further and further, those cities that were, they've always been important cities for the regional ecosystem, but they become major players, and so it's exciting to be able to work with them on that stuff. Chris: Sounds like a lot of opportunity for real estate development. Both residential, retail, commercial, industrial kind of all sectors are going to be playing a big part in that ongoing development in your region. Brian: Exactly right, and part of the the fun part is, you know, every municipality has different targets of what they view their economic development to look like, and so we get to work with all those cities where some may be really focused on industrial, some may want to be bedroom communities and be focused on residential. Our task is to support those municipalities in this region and identifying good players to bring to the table. So who are people that we do want to partner with that can follow through on the projects that can complete them and make them successful? Chris: That's great. I think I saw recently in the news the state of Texas, I think it's had something along these lines, but it's like a fund for the space-related projects and I know I don't know the name and you'll help me with that, but I seem to recall the governor being in town and making some big announcement right after the first of the year. Tell us a little more about that. Brian: Recall the governor being in town and making some big announcement right after the first of the year. Tell us a little more about that, exactly, right? So last legislative session, primarily spearheaded by State Representative Greg Bonin, who's also a Princewood resident he's a neurosurgeon by day and State Representative Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee during the legislative session he had this kind of vision of how does the state become a major player in the aerospace community. That's been primarily a federal and private industry ecosystem and so under his vision and with support of the state legislature and certainly the governor, they put a bill that kind of outlined a direction for the state to engage and the resources behind it. It does a couple of things. One was it allocated about $200 million that would go to Texas A&M to build this A&M Space Institute, and they've actually located that property. It will be built on the edge of the campus of Johnson Space Center, so for those familiar with this area, right on Saturn Lane. $200 million building and, as A&M's laid it out, it will have a giant lunar rock yard and a giant Mars rock yard, with the idea that everybody who's going to be doing hardware testing to send vehicles to the moon or Mars is trying to figure out where they're going to do that testing. And it's very expensive to build, obviously. And so companies are making the decision whether they're going to build that themselves and own it or go lease it somewhere. And if they're going to lease it, where do you go to find a giant brockyard to simulate the surface of the moon? And well, the state of Texas answered that question. So what was so unique about that vision was that everybody who's in that ecosystem now wants to come through Houston Texas to do that work. And so with that comes the. You know they'll be have their lab space there, but they may need offices, they're going to be hiring people, and so you know it really is an exciting project. They had their groundbreaking right at the end of last year. I've seen surveyors out there and they think they're going to have it open in 2026. So an aggressive timeline to get that bill. The other part to that bill was they appropriated $150 million for a grant program to incentivize sort of space leadership projects in the state of Texas, and so they have to set up a whole, basically administration portion of this. So they selected nine individuals to serve on the Texas Space Commission who will review those proposals and evaluate them and make awards. Who will review those proposals and evaluate them and make awards, and then they'll also help advise the state on how they can keep their leadership position in the space industry. The first of those awards about 20 million were released a little over a week ago. A couple of them were studies for best use for really cool stuff hypersonic corridors where to be landing sites. And then another one that is to build assets and capabilities for the Space Force in El Paso to have more of a Space Force presence in the state of Texas, which is pretty exciting. So I'm optimistic about what's to come for them. Chris: Yeah, that sounds very exciting, especially the concept of the $200 million grant to A&M and what that will do to attract other businesses that might relocate somewhere else and bring them here, and then all the ancillary things around hiring and jobs et cetera. So that's very exciting news and I think it'll be just around the corner. Let's maybe talk a little bit about. You mentioned Maritime and the port, and most Houstonians People know the Houston port is a significant asset for our area. Anything going on there that's new and exciting, any kind of innovation that you see when you're working with those entities and, I guess, the port authority itself. Brian: Yeah, well, maybe the first thing when you talk about the port is you're absolutely right just how important they are to this well, to all of Houston, but to the country I mean. The scale of the port is hard to appreciate when you just look at the numbers. But the numbers are just staggering. The amount of capability that comes through there and the innovation really is on the logistics and management for how they move, whether it's container, you know, container containers, the container terminal organization and how that whole orchestra is operated, and the capabilities from there is that the crane's getting stuff unloaded, then onto the trucks or rail or whatever. The mechanism to get it out and then get it distributed to wherever it's going is pretty incredible, and so we're fortunate to have them. We just hosted the new port CEO, charlie Jenkins, who's a phenomenal leader, has a career in service of the port, is the right guy to lead that organization into their next chapter. But he made this comment kind of in passing that the port's operations are about a $3 billion a day operation, you know, and you just go like a day of economic impact that go into that. The scale is really something impressive and that's all the trickle out and secondary effects. But it's amazing, the big thing that's going on with them right now is Project 11. That's the deepening and widening of the channel that'll allow additional capacity to go in there, and it's really writing the story for what the next chapter of the port's future is and Houston as a trading hub is, and so it'll allow for larger ships to come through. The additional investments they're making will allow faster turn and movement of all the goods that are on there. So a lot of good stuff going on. I guess the last thing I'll say is anybody who's driven 225 sees all those trucks and I drive it pretty regularly and see that too and as much as nobody likes driving next to a giant 18 wheeler, every one of those trucks is jobs and prosperity for our region, and so the next time you're driving there and you see a hundred trucks going down 225, that's our economic prosperity moving around our region and, candidly, around the country. It's good stuff. Chris: It's a good point. Yeah, I mean it's. You wouldn't want the roads to be empty and no trucks moving. I mean that's not a good sign. So feel blessed that we have all that you know in our area and driving all kinds of different prospects and opportunities for people. So when you are working with, let's talk a little bit about these member organizations and all the different moving parts you know what are you doing? How do you, I guess, keep things organized and people kind of moving in the same direction? Just, I would think that in itself is a full-time job. Brian: Yeah, it's a lot, but you know it's good stuff. I guess I'll start with a phrase that I kind of live by, which is we have a lot of stuff going on and so we'll find something to get on about. Right, we can always find something to work together on, and so, if you kind of start with that attitude, there's a lot of common issues that really require a lot of work but you can get maybe not perfect alignment, but general directional alignment. And so you know, one of the big issues we're working with right now is insurance. Right, we're all dealing with it. I'm sure you've gotten your insurance bill, but whether it's home or your business insurance, all those things, and so you can find a lot of commonality and ideas about hey, how can we work with our state leaders, potentially our federal leaders, with the insurance companies themselves, to try to manage the cost of doing that and find ways could it be grouping, doing kind of what they do in medical where you can have these larger groups or other mechanisms to try and help mitigate some of the costs? For that I'm getting a little granular, but you can find these little pockets where you can go move the ball down the field and get general alignment and so we spend a lot of time doing that. But we are very fortunate that our membership and generally this is kind of a Texan spirit type thing is hey, how do we go get some stuff done? Right, we want to go work on some stuff we want to go work on together. Generally it's a rising tide mentality and I spent a good portion of my career in industry and there are times where we compete like crazy and that's fun and, you know, makes great products and great opportunities for our customers. There are a lot of times where we need the tide to rise and finding alignment about that we try to be an outlet for that and keep things running. Right Is that we have not a big staff but a staff that can help make sure that. You know, our members are doing a lot of this stuff as volunteers, right, but they're bringing ideas to the table. So how can we make sure that they're staying engaged, that we're checking in on them, that we're helping carry these things and that we're creating a forum to have the right discussions and bring leaders together so we can invite in elected officials over relevant stuff, the right industry players, and bring them to the table and figure out what we can do, and then I guess the last thing I'll say is that manifests itself. We have a very active state legislative agenda. That we're going to be spending a fair amount of time in Austin, federal priorities. That we work with our congressional delegation and then very on the ground working with our municipalities and all the companies that are out down here to make movement. Probably talk all day about little one-offs. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Well it is. You know legislature is in session, so I know that creates a busy time for you. You talked a lot about some of the opportunities and I hope we can talk some more about that, but I do want to ask you at this point what are some of the headwinds that you see you know this region and specifically kind of where you are. You know that could be out there. That you see you know this region and specifically kind of where you are. You know that could be out there that you've got to try to deal with, to get ahead of or navigate through. Brian: I'll start with. It's a great time down here. Just the way that each one of those big five industry clusters is going about is that it's a. You know they're all doing well and have a lot of opportunity that's on the horizon or that they're in the midst of right now, but certainly you know, a few headwinds. One of the things that we're always worried about and we work actively is just natural disaster flood mitigation and storm surge and making sure that we're resilient and prepared for the future, and so the risk from some incident happening. I'm more excited to talk about, when it comes to that, all the things that we're doing to mitigate that. In terms of flood mitigation, the coastal barrier protection work that we've been spending a lot of time on. That's the Ike Dike. It has a lot of names, but most commonly known is that but a system to protect us from storm surge. So one is the risk of natural disaster I don't like it, but it's a real thing, right? The second is that we're in the you know how do we have responsible development? And so when you have a project that comes online, there are, you know, reasonable concerns from citizens saying, hey, is this the best thing to be doing with this piece of land, and so anytime you're talking about a development that's going to take a field and turn it into a thing, people get concerned about that and that's perfectly reasonable for them to be concerned and want to do that. And so part of what I spend time doing is addressing like, hey, here's why this is worthwhile, here's why this funds your local municipality and build more parks so we can have the resources and the tax base that justify expenditures that come elsewhere and make through that. But just the ability for the public's ability to impact development, as it happens, is important. But for them to do that knowing all the ground truth, knowing what the trades are and understanding that, so that if they are concerned about something that they come with that from an educated knowledge base and so that's out there. And then I certainly don't want to get political, but anytime there's an administration change, there's just priorities that get changed. And so we're still waiting to understand all of those. We're kind of watching how things are shaken out in Washington DC and we'll adapt and make sure that we're doing everything we can to put our region in a great posture with whatever those priorities are at the end of the day. Chris: So yeah, to that last point where you're kind of right in throws that change. Right now that's happening pretty fast, so you got to stay on your toes. Let me take you back to the Ike Dike, because that you know something to get after Harvey. Hurricane Harvey got talked about a lot. You don't hear much about it anymore. Any kind of updates for the listeners. That might be curious. Is it really going to happen and, if so, what's really going on down there to make sure it doesn't happen? Brian: And if so, what's really going on down there to make sure it doesn't happen? Yeah, so it's still moving along, you know, and with some enthusiasm. So a couple of big milestones. One is that in December of 22, it became a formal project of the US Army Corps of Engineers. It was authorized by Congress as a project, so that says, you know, they can now go focus on that. And so the next big question becomes how do we pay for it? To answer that, the state stepped up in a big way in the last legislative session and they had previously formed what's called the Gulf Coast Protection District. That is the local entity for that project. That will work with the US Army Corps of Engineers. So that group exists and has monthly meetings. They actually have an office in our suite. We lease an office to them them and they have their meeting in our conference room two out of every three months and then they do a rotation on that. Third, and they've been funded to the tune of about a half a billion dollars from the state of Texas. So they're ready to take significant action. We've been working with our federal partners about identifying where the big dollars come from for that project. It's going to be expensive and it's going to take a long time, but it will be likely done in phases and so that allows it. Where you don't need this one giant tranche of money all at once, you can do it sort of in a series and address the most important aspects of that, like the gates, some of the initial most highly populated areas, in phases. But we got to get federal appropriations for it. So in addition to the state entity being in our office, actually the US Army Corps of Engineers is on the fourth floor of this building and so all of the players for that project are in one building in our area right here, so that when what I'm hopeful for is if Corps moved in about six months ago, anytime an elected leader wants to come down and meet, they'll get every leader for that project in the same building and often meeting in our conference room or one of the core conference rooms. But a lot more can get done. There's sort of the opportunity for water cooler conversations between the state and the fed folks, and so I'm optimistic that the cadence just from that proximity will be helpful to that effort. Chris: Very good, that's good to hear. Let's change conversation a little bit. So, as I said, you're the president of BHEP. You mentioned your staff. Let's talk a little about leadership. How would you describe your leadership style and how do you think that's evolved kind of as you've been in this role? Brian: Yeah, well, I don't know that I can quantify terribly well, but I'm a kind of hey, all hands on deck and let's all just lean into wherever we're going. Right, and I kind of have that expectation of our team that we're have a clear set of priorities generally around the growth of this region and the projects that we're undertaking and that we're just leaning into them all the time and focusing. That I've been. You know I love getting down and into projects and so that's as I've been on this journey. That's been one of the big focus points to me is that you know you need a team to get this amount of stuff done and the size of these projects and the scope and so the ability to trust in the team and lean on them and let them go run with the ball is really important. I've been extremely fortunate that we have a great staff and we have a great membership base that we can lean on to help go bring those things to fruition. But it's a lot of fun coming to work. I think the team has a great time and enjoy the work that we do and you can see the difference that we make because there are buildings. We can point to that, wouldn't, you know, if not for the work of us and the leaders in this community wouldn't be there, and I'm looking forward to seeing that one on Saturn Lane with giant Texas A&M buildings sticking out of it coming through. Chris: It sounds like it's going to be impressive with the rockyards and all. But, you know, it made me think, though your team has a lot on its plate, I would think at times it may feel overwhelming. So, you know, what do you do to kind of help keep the motivation and keep the energy level up for a team that probably, at some points is, you know, starting to get to the end of the rope or run out of gas? Brian: Yeah, diversity of projects and lots of different stuff to work on. I'm guessing and actually I'd kind of turn that question on you, chris, because I can only imagine the type of stress that you guys live under, especially working big cases and big projects. There's one part that is, hey, we're just all in this together, right, and the esprit de corps that comes with. We're tackling big projects and that's just part of what comes with it. But there's another part where you just need to shift gears for a little bit and work on something different and give yourself a little recharge time. But how do you guys deal with it? I'm curious how? Chris: Boyer Miller, yeah that's a fair question to turn around on me. I would say it's similar. I think it's. You know to me that you can't underestimate the power of a team and if you have the right people on the team, there's some self-motivation just within that group, Right. And then I think it is the. We are fortunate to have very diverse type projects. We practice in all industries. So we may be doing a, a deal or a project, but it's in a different industry and there's different nuances that make it exciting. And at the end of the day I think it's the one point you highlighted on you can point to something and we're helping clients achieve their goals. So we can, you know, point to a deal that's been done or, you know, maybe it's a merger of two companies, or one that's grown and now has a new building and doing whatever. But you can point to those successes that you, where you've helped the client achieve, you know something really big for them and their business and their life. And so I think all of that continues the motivation. Yes, sometimes at the end of a big deal, you need just a little bit of a breather, but you just jump right back in and get going. So it makes it fun. Brian: Well, if you'll let me share. So you and I first met in person, had an opportunity to meet at one of your big forums, and that was a bunch of your customers and clients were there, and I love meeting new folks, as you probably saw, and I you know, walking around just saying, hey, I'm Brian, what do you do? And almost every one of them I would ask like, hey. So how do you know Chris, how do you know this group? You know, have you worked with them? And they all had a story. That was exactly that. You know, whatever thing it was that you helped them. We did XYZ project and it was awesome. We use them all the time for all these things. It was just very striking how passionate your customers, your clients, are with the help they've gotten from you guys, and so, anyway, that is extremely commendable and what I've seen from your team has just been amazing. Chris: Well, I appreciate the feedback. It's always good to get that, especially from different sources. So you know, like I think, we're always trying to create raving fans so that they'll keep coming back and tell their friends. So you get a unique seat and I think it's similar. You kind of analogize back to us. I think we get a unique seat to work with Texas entrepreneurs, and that's a pretty cool thing to do, in my view. What's, what would you or how would you describe the Texas entrepreneurial spirit if you could, based on your experience? Brian: Yeah well, I'm a native Texan. I have this hypothesis that part of the reason we're such a proud bunch is that when you go through I don't know if you grew up in Texas, chris but then also this sense of like we can do big things and big audacious things and we can make big asks and ask big questions and go get it done. And so we see a lot of that down here. And so you know, if you were sitting in I'll make this up Iowa and you said you know I want to have a space business and we want to go put hardware on the moon, and you know your neighbors would look at you and kind of scratch their head and in Texas they'd go oh yeah, that's intuitive machines and they're down the street, you should go. You know, go talk to them. They'd love to work with you. So that kind of spirit is really something special. When I was in industry I traveled all over the country working projects. There's something very special about this region, this community, this state, and that translates into why people want to come here. You know we keep Texas and Houston keep winning all these awards for business, new businesses coming here, people moving here, and that's not by accident, it's not by coincidence. It's because we have a great, great story to tell, whether that's workforce and the capabilities, the affordability of being here, the caliber of people you can work with and who your competitors are, and the level of intensity in the game that we play here is high and that creates the right ingredients for a really thriving community, for entrepreneurs, but also for industry any size. Chris: Right, very good. So what advice would you give to entrepreneurs out there that might be looking to start a business, let's say specifically, kind of within your region? If not, maybe beyond that in Houston? What's? Some of the advice you might give them if they wanted to get involved in some of the all the things you've been talking about. Brian: Yeah, dive in. It's a great community and a great ecosystem and there's a reason people are investing here and making a great run at it. We try to make that as easy as it can be. Now it is not easy. There's no illusions that starting a company you know scaling and growing a company all those things are very challenging. So the question I find myself asking I don't know that I'm in a position to give you know this immense amount of wisdom about these things, but what can we as a community and we as an organization be doing to help that entrepreneur? How do we help them build a relationship so that if they're having trouble with a permit, they know who to go ask, who to go talk to If they have a big idea, who might be good partners If they want to bounce something off, a retired executive who they might go talk to about that has the right skillset, so that we can create the conditions for them to be successful? And so that's really how we find ourselves interfacing that ecosystem is how do we put the right players together to go make things happen? Chris: Very good. So the other thing I'm curious to know is what do you see? You mentioned your five big industries. What have you observed of those industries working together to create innovative ideas to help each other? You got to move forward. Brian: Yeah, there's been a lot of. So workforce has been one of the biggest, especially over the last few years, where there's been this really high intensity competition amongst folks. And I wouldn't be surprised if you have been in some of that with, you know, recruiting and retaining high talent attorneys, right Is that? That's been, and so we've spent a lot of time and I've observed a lot of our members in this community go with that as a spirit of, hey, we're not really doing anybody any good If we're just poaching each other's people and you know, and creating pain points and friction between senior executives and those kinds of things. Let's go look at other communities and go figure out hey, what are the best universities and how do we get the professors that are training the students in it to send resumes to our area, right, and that we have a coalition of companies, not just one company has a relationship with one professor and that company benefits from that it's. How do we build that relationship as a community and say to them hey, we have a very strong demand signal, let's work together on things like that and so feeding that workforce pipeline so we're not divvying up the pie, we're growing it. And so, on the workforce side. I hate to be cliche because everybody's talking about AI, but we've had a couple of membership meetings about it. We've been working with partners about integration of it. We've adopted different technologies that have come out of it. But that stuff really, I mean it's the wave that we're living in right now, and so the integration of that into systems, both the how to do it and the mitigation of risk. I think I saw over the weekend that the new DeepSeek had a big not terribly surprised, but had a giant data leak and compromise, and so when you know when you're using that, I can only imagine, chris, I'd be curious how y'all are integrating it. But you know everything you put in there. You got to assume that at some point, somebody you don't want to have access will at least have the opportunity to have access to it, and so you have to be quite careful about how you integrate it. I, just as an aside, how are you guys using it much? Have you all banished it? What's the? Chris: Well, I'd say it's a little bit of both. I mean, we are definitely looking at and finding ways to integrate it. We've adopted a policy, but it starts with, as you mentioned, with us. It starts and stops with maintaining client confidentiality. So there's some systems out there through recognized kind of legal researchers. So Westlaw comes to mind, where they developed AI tool that is solely within their database. So it's secure, it's, it's all legal. You don't have to worry about we were still spot. You still have to check things right the human element of that. But if you're searching, for example, using the AI tool within Westlaw, you don't have to worry about the fake cases you've seen in the news. But our attorneys, you know, if you're going to use it, it has to be approved through the firm which are only a handful. You can't use anything outside and everything has to be double checked by a person to make sure for accuracy, etc. But so it is. I mean, the confidentiality side is a real concern, not just for law firms, for everybody, any company using it, and unfortunately that's just gonna be more and more what we see right. The more that we're moving everything to cloud, you're going to have people coming after it to try to. You know, on the bad side of that and certain countries it's not illegal to be a hacker. So it's just, you know, that's the world we live in now. Yeah Well, you know, brian, this has been a very interesting conversation and the you know, the last time we spoke I came away with the same feeling, and that is, we talked a lot about a lot of opportunity going on in the three to six o'clock region of greater Houston and we didn't even scratch the surface, I'm sure. But my takeaways have been it doesn't matter what industry again, I said earlier, you always kind of automatically think of space and NASA, but it's every type of business you could think of. An industry you could think of Sounds like you've got ample opportunity for businesses and entrepreneurs to start, grow, expand and be there and thrive. Brian: Well, perfectly said, and I think we get a recording. I may use that in some of our promotional material. Chris, that's exactly right. Great time, great place to be and welcome folks to reach out to us to help however we can if they're interested in looking at opportunities down here for that Before I lose you. Chris, one of the favorite questions that you had sent over that I wanted to ask you that you didn't get a chance to ask is what your favorite recreation vacation spot in the state of Texas is. Chris: Well, I'll answer that. I was about to ask you that. I would say if it's kind of a vacation spot in Texas, it would probably be anywhere along the Texas coast to relax a little bit and get some fishing in. Brian: Perfect. Chris: How about you? Brian: We are huge campers, like we love going camping. My kids are eight and 11 and we have state parks pass, and so any day I'm in a state park is a good day for me. But Inks Lake is one of my favorites and McKinney Falls between the two of those. Those are my top two right now, but we've probably been to Keene and we're just checking off the box to hit them all, and maybe we'll upgrade to National Parks as we get a little bit older. But I love our visiting our state park system. They're just absolutely wonderful. Chris: That's great. Okay, last question You're native Texan, so do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Brian: Oh, I feel like that question is going to get me in trouble, but if you made me choose, I'd pick barbecue. I'll eat it all day, every day, as it shows how about you, how about you? Chris: I think it's a tough one, so I've had some guests. You know, it depends on the day. I probably lean Tex-Mex more than barbecue. But I love the restaurants now that are combining the two, so brisket tacos or brisket nachos or something like that. It's a great combination. Brian: Yeah, there should be an answer all of the above there. Chris: So we're getting close to the rodeo time in Houston, so I have to go with barbecue for now and then back to Tex-Mex, I guess. Brian: Well, I look forward to seeing you at the kickoff event, where we get to go sample a little everything. Deal, that sounds good. Well, I look forward to seeing you at the kickoff event, where we get to go sample a little everything. Chris: Deal. That sounds good. Brian, thanks again for taking the time. Really appreciate your friendship and definitely appreciate what you and your team are doing for all the things business down in the Bay Area. Brian: Well, right back at you, Chris. Thanks for your leadership and all the great work you're doing with your team. Appreciate the opportunity to visit with you today. Thank you. Special Guest: Brian Freedman.

In episode 69, Chris and Emma talked with Lian Brook-Tyler, shamanic healer, teacher of unity, podcaster, and co-founder of the Be Mythical podcast. In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, we dive into the intersections of mysticism, neurodivergence, spirituality, transformation, and awakenings—connecting these profound experiences to Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration. We explore:* How neurodivergence can shape mystical and spiritual experiences.* The connection between shamanic practices, inner work, and positive disintegration.* The importance of doing the work of inner transformation and embracing the unknown.* The parallels between psychological and spiritual frameworks in understanding human development.Lian's mythical journey truly began when she was ruptured open to Spirit with the sudden death of her father—which led to her mysteriously recovering from 15 years of chronic pain, panic attacks and anxiety. That inexplicable transformation inspired her to leave a leadership role in the corporate world to immerse herself in discovering what creates pain and struggle, and conversely, how to create a life overflowing with love, magic, beauty and truthLian also shares how her work at Be Mythical, together with co-founder Jonathan Wilkinson, supports old souls and visionaries on initiatory journeys of self-discovery, using myth and ancient wisdom to find purpose and truth. Their work, Be Mythical, is an alchemy of ancient ways for modern days. It weaves together eclectic wisdom teachings and natural traditions such as rewilding, magic and animist spirituality, embodiment, and self-illumination into a soul-led, heart-centred, sovereign path of reclaiming your wildness, actualising your deepest gifts, to live fully and die complete.Here is the Tree of Life image Lian discussed during the episodeLinks from this episodeBe Mythical websiteBe Mythical podcastBe Mythical episodes we mentioned:* “Over-excitability”: A more truthful and constructive perspective on neurodivergence? (episode with Chris)* How to know if you're really "Doing The Work"? Sara J. Sanderson interviews Lian Brook-Tyler Positive Disintegration Episode 29: The Disintegrating DuckCourses: https://www.bemythical.com/godeeperFree fb group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1694264587546957Fb page: https://www.facebook.com/bemythicalYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BeMythicalInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/be.mythical/Moonly Newsletter: https://www.bemythical.com/moonlyConnect with usPositive Disintegration on SubstackVisit the Dabrowski Center websiteFacebookInstagramThe Positive Disintegration YouTube ChannelAdults with Overexcitabilities group on FacebookThe Tragic Gift blog by EmmaEmail us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.comPlease consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.Find Positive Disintegration MerchIf you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!Tuesday, December 10, 2024, is Colorado Gives Day. Please consider donating to the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, and help support the Dabrowski Congress, other events, and our archive. This year, a generous anonymous donor has pledged to match gifts up to $2,500 USD. Thank you for supporting our work! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.positivedisintegration.org/subscribe

Patrick discusses vestment protocol at Notre Dame in France, the Orthodox Church, transfer of Holy Days of Obligation, the fact that every hundred years the Earth gets new people, HAL 9000 spoof and more.   Bobby - Opening mass at Notre Dame Cathedral. Where did they get those multicolored vestments from?   Omar - The Orthodox Church is not really a Church as a whole. Really a bunch of Churches that are not in Communion with each other.   Greg – Is today a holy day of obligation since the feast was transferred from Sunday?   Chris – How do we talks with Protestants about Eucharist, Confession and Authority? It seems like there are heresies, the Church hasn't dealt with in the past.   Patrick played audio from a man talking about how we have to try and get along and a spoof off 2001 Space Odyssey   Pete – I want to debate on whether humanity deserves what we get in this life when it comes to technology.   Dave – Hal the computer. The letters H, A, and L, precede IBM. Coincidence?

n this episode of the Building Texas Business Podcast, we dive into the entrepreneurial journey of Summer Craig, founder of Craig Group, a strategic consulting firm. Summer shares how a vacation epiphany led her to start a business while caring for a newborn. Her firm now partners with private equity-backed companies, helping middle-market businesses transition from startups to structured entities ready for expansion. We explore the early challenges of entrepreneurship, including securing initial revenue from clients like Gulf States Toyota. Summer discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic unexpectedly fueled growth in the middle market and healthcare sectors. She emphasizes the importance of building high-quality teams through strategic hiring, focusing on complementary skills and an ownership mentality. Craig Group stands out with its hands-on approach and a patent-pending software platform for sales and marketing forecasting. Summer highlights the significance of creating a flexible work environment that prioritizes excellence and authentic client relationships. Her innovative approach to consulting demonstrates how companies can adapt and thrive in challenging business landscapes. The conversation reveals the delicate balance of cost-saving strategies and necessary investments. Summer shares insights into maintaining a remote work culture built on trust and continuous improvement. We learn about the power of problem-solving, client feedback, and the determination required to transform business challenges into opportunities. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Summer Craig, founder of Craig Group, shares her entrepreneurial journey that started with an epiphany during a vacation while caring for her newborn. Craig Group focuses on strategic consulting for private equity-backed middle-market companies, helping them transition from successful startups to structured entities. The early days of the business involved securing foundational clients like Gulf States Toyota, with initial revenues critical for startup success. Summer discusses the positive impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on business growth, particularly in the middle market and healthcare sectors. Strategic hiring decisions and fostering a company culture of complementary skills and flexible work environments are highlighted as key to building high-quality teams. Craig Group differentiates itself with a hands-on, results-driven approach and a patent-pending software platform that enhances sales and marketing forecasting. Building trust with elite clients through effective communication and personal interactions is emphasized as crucial for maintaining successful business relationships. The episode underscores the importance of collecting client feedback to ensure service excellence and continuous improvement. Summer uses her passion for mountain climbing as a metaphor for her entrepreneurial journey, highlighting the determination and vision required to navigate business challenges. The conversation concludes with reflections on the importance of strategic growth consulting and the ongoing journey of team building and client success. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Craig Group GUESTS Summer CraigAbout Summer TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Summer Craig, founder and CEO of Craig Group. Summer's passion for excellence has helped fuel her company's growth, and she and her team's authentic approach to delivering for clients has formed relationships built on trust. Summer, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast. Summer: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. Chris: So I know there's a lot for us to talk about. I want to start with giving you the opportunity to tell the audience who your company is and what are you known for. Summer: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I love your podcast. I love what you're doing, telling people's stories, so I'm glad to be here. Chris: Thank you. Summer: Yeah, my story is a unique one, very interesting. It actually started with an actual epiphany that I had. I had a true, you know, entrepreneurial lightning strike moment. That that moment was sitting in Frisco, colorado, on vacation, while rocking my three month old third child, which is never the time that you should start a company. But I but that was my I had an epiphany, and the epiphany really was this that I was always going to work very hard, I was going to outwork the people around me, I was going to outwork my peers and I was in a fantastic role, fantastic job. But I had the epiphany that if I was going to always work that hard, no matter what, I could create more value for myself and for the economy by starting my own firm. And I knew that I needed to start my own firm because of that that, if I'm going to always do this, why not build something instead of working for someone else and creating value for somebody else? So that was the epiphany, and it was a true anxiety ridden, sweat inducing moment when I knew that I was going to start a company, you know, despite having a newborn third child. But fast forward. And you know, we're five and a half years later, and you know, we have a firm of 32 people and it turns out the Epiphany was the right way to go for me, that's a really unique story. Chris: And I'm sure your husband thought it was part of brain fog, but you proved him wrong. Summer: Yeah, actually he's been nothing. I think he said okay, sure, you know a little bit, maybe a little more, thinking like oh, we'll see what, we'll see what actually happens here. Chris: Okay, so. So it sounds like the inspiration for you was I want to do this for myself and build something that's mine. Tell us what it is that you've built. Summer: Yeah, absolutely. So what we've built is we built a strategic consulting firm. So we consult with sponsor-backed typically private equity-backed portfolio companies. We really focus on the middle market, lower middle market. What we do with those companies is we come in at different phases in the hold period even pre, even in LOI and we support top line organic growth. So we've built a system of tools and a system of really smart people and a platform that creates a formulaic way to streamline processes, streamline people, streamline technology for growth in these companies. The solution is really right size for companies that have been really successful but haven't really worked on their operations and growth. So they're selling whatever they're selling widgets, whatever it is but have they truly really looked and said is there anybody else I could sell to? Could I be doing something better? Could I be faster, could I do this more cheaply? They haven't really had to do that, but when the PE sponsors come in, you definitely do have to do that and what we're finding is that in a lot of in-house and PE there is a trend of hiring operating partners, which is a newer trend. So some have expertise on top line growth, but for the most part, that expertise is not in-house. So the PE firms need to go outside of their doors to get support to help these firms grow. Chris: So it sounds like you take a company that's almost been successful, despite themselves. That's right and help them systemize that that's right, so that they can maybe leverage it for more success. Summer: Well, yeah, and I mean I hope some of my clients are listening, but many are in Texas and I'll say it's so impressive, a lot of industrial manufacturing it unbelievably successful, either family businesses or entrepreneur-led businesses. But you're right, they haven't really had to. I'm using, you know, using air quotes here, but try that hard because they've had a great product right they've had a great story. the entrepreneur, the founder, had a really great connected network right, so that gets you to a certain amount of growth. But then when you have, you know, pe dollars coming in who are betting on you, there's a growth mandate and the growth mandate that that activity to grow is not the same as what it takes to start a business, so growth is harder and it takes more structure, and that's exactly right. We come in and say, man, this is awesome, how can we take what's awesome, do more of what's awesome, and let's try to reduce some of the risk that you have in the business, probably because nothing's repeatable, nothing's written down, maybe there's no technology supporting system, so we help them build that structure. Chris: And it helps them go to scale. Summer: That's exactly right. Chris: So let me take you back to the beginning, right after the epiphany. What were some of the first things you remember doing to kind of start the business? And, as you said, you build this thing of your own. What were some of those basic building blocks and things you did? Summer: Yeah, Well, for me personally, it was. The first thing was, you know, pray, look for guidance and then talk to people. So I spoke to a lot of people in my network just saying, hey, I've got this crazy idea, I want to build a firm. And the initial idea, while still very similar to what we do, was really around looking at sales and marketing and being able to tie the two together and prove ROI. So that's the crux of what we do right is show your work, show that this works. And I have a long career of traditional marketing. Marketing and marketing has always struggled to tie themselves to results. And that was really, you know, the core idea, you know, back when I originally founded it. But at the time I was working for Gulf States Toyota best people in the world and I'll never work for another company again. That was the, I think I topped out working for them and being, you know, affiliated with the Friedkin family. They are just salt of the earth. So I was very lucky. At the time when I had my epiphany, I said, well, wouldn't this be great if I built my business plan and I started my company but I already had a client? Wouldn't that just make me feel better? Chris: For those of you listening, it's the ideal thing to do. Summer: It really is the ideal and I think, as an entrepreneur especially somebody that I wanted to do something, but it does mitigate some risk when you first file that paperwork and you know you've got some revenue coming in. So I was lucky enough to have Gulf States Toyota before I actually quit my job, they had agreed to hire my firm, which at the time was me, and we had a great relationship and we ended up entering into a contract where I was consulting with them and I was able to do that the day I officially opened, you know, opened Craig Group and opened my doors, and I think that gave me just a little bit of peace, knowing that there was revenue coming in while I was building all the structure that you have to do, which, honestly, is quite painful. Chris: Right, it's very painful. It's always more work than you even can think. Right, absolutely. Summer: And if you've not done it before, which? Who has? That's something, that's a skill set that you know. I mean, I guess you know lawyers do it all the time. You probably do it all the time, right, setting up entities. But if you I just had this, I you know, probably should have advised, got more advice, but I definitely was able to say, oh well, I can do this, I can. And what state do you incorporate and why, and what do you do, and who do you bring in, and is it all those questions? As an entrepreneur, you have to just do it. Chris: We advise on those issues all the time. I was in a conversation yesterday with someone on the same issues and always tell people look, because as the entrepreneur, the other thing you're doing at the very beginning is trying to save every penny you can, and people will maybe try to do it themselves on the legal side, and I try to counsel people. It's an investment in your business, not an expense, and but try, you have to keep it manageable you're exactly right, exactly right. Summer: And luckily I was at that juncture. It was a small enough entity where I was able to get by with it. I don't cannot today with. I have, you know, a wonderful legal team, but that time, you know, just as an entrepreneur, it's really a pain, it's overwhelming, just to figure out how do I, how do I get you know, a wonderful legal team. But that time, you know, just as an entrepreneur, it's really a pain, it's overwhelming, just to figure out how do I, how do I get you know, get started. But again, I was lucky that I had a client and so I had revenue coming in. It really enabled me to get a lot of things done because you didn't have to worry so much about that. And I remember thinking my first goal was, oh, you know, back half of the year, six months, if I could just, you know, make my salary back right, thinking like, oh, I'll just replace my income. Well, that I quickly got client two, client three, and that I blew past that goal. It was amazing. It was a little bit of a you know it, who you know. I really talked to people and got advice and those ended up being some of my clients eventually, when people that I was asking for advice. So that was great. But it was such a funny little goal, which was okay, because if I can do that, then it's like, okay, I've done something that hasn't been a detriment to my family. I'm adding to the family kitty. Well, we realized like, oh wait, now I can. There's more here. Chris: So I was just thinking as you were answering that question. You said it's been just over five years. Summer: So, given the calendar, that means you started in 2019 and then the world went upside down. Chris: So let's talk about, I mean, every business that starts out. It's going to face some headwinds and obviously this was a pretty big one. But just walk us through some of the challenges you faced and how you managed through that, given that you just had this new business. Summer: Absolutely Well, of course, like you know we. Business. Absolutely Well, of course, like you know we. I was just looking at right before COVID so COVID was in March and February I was just looking at expanding and getting some more office space because I'm hiring people. I was looking at leases. So that was hilarious, right, because the minute COVID hit, you know you don't sign the you don't sign the lease, which was great that we hadn't signed it yet, so that was just a fortuitous that was a God thing, but I will say there's a few good things that came out of COVID. In general, COVID was very good for Craig Group and here's why it was good for Craig Group. I think that middle market businesses that I was working with and we also work with healthcare companies as well, especially healthcare technology, B2B and B2C healthcare I think that what COVID brought to us was that people always did, but then they had to go and find your business online Right, and probably on their phone Right. So if you were not ready with a digital presence and for sales and marketing, so if somebody could not seamlessly buy something from you online or if they couldn't research your product online, you were toast in COVID. Chris: Very true yeah. Summer: And even B2B industrial manufacturing businesses that never cared a day in their life about their website. All of a sudden they need their spec sheets to be posted online because they can't drive over and drop them off in person right? They're not going to trade shows, right? So website, but not just the website, really the content, the interaction. And then how good is your email response? How good is your team on the phone? How good are they at working those leads that just got spotlighted? And on the healthcare side, as you can imagine, about COVID, people are scared to death. At that time, telehealth was nascent. Chris: Right. Summer: Pretty terrible still, kind of, and they realized we have to invest here. Patients don't know how to get in touch with us. Everybody's scared. People aren't coming into the doctor's office or the hospital because everyone's afraid that they're going to get COVID. So the messaging opportunity for what we do, which is growth, really about growth. We no longer had to convince our clients you need to take action, because before pre-COVID, and even either at the same time of COVID, there was also this shift with the markets too. Around PE also said oh wait, this has been like really good times and I actually need to start building organic growth instead of just buying another company and doing roll-ups. So this happened very right after COVID. So those two things we did not. We stopped having to tell people. People would ask us why are you doing growth support? We don't need that, right, and nobody says that now, right, no, there's no argument. So COVID, plus what was happening in kind of the deal-making PE market, which we can, that's another. That was another big change for us, but it just helped people say, oh my gosh, we need help. We need help right now. And that was a huge. It was a huge growth time for us. So we grew significantly in 2020 and 2021. Chris: Stars aligned, it sounds like. Summer: Stars aligned and again, it was just one of those who would have. There would have been no way to know. Chris: Forecast, foresee or plan no way. Summer: The only way that I was able to do is I said we were able to kind of make hay, which was okay. We have a door here, so how can I be really good about scaling in a smart way? So I didn't hire tons of people, I hired slowly. I never wanted to have layoff right, so I was able to say I have an opportunity, let's scale slowly. Due to that growth, we're also bootstrapped. So we were able to fund our whole company out of revenue which, especially at that time, I wasn't going to go fundraise. It was just so we were just. We're really lucky that we were able to build something, grow, but grow in a. We weren't growing too fast that we were getting out over our skis. We were able to service our clients, grow, you know, as needed. Then it ended up being a good time for us to kind of get our feet under us about who we are as a firm. Chris: It's a great segue when you talk about the growth you were seeing from the client revenue side forced you to start building your team. Yes, so let's talk about how you went about. One setting the strategy of not growing too fast, because you can fail when you do that, but really focusing on making sure you're making the right hires and adding to your team in the right way. Summer: Yeah Well, I'll say I don't always make the right hires and I've made so many mistakes. If you said that, we'd know you're lying, yeah if there was a thing that I think I could always do better at, it was being even better at hiring. I mean, to me it's the hardest thing that I think we do as business leaders, as CEOs and entrepreneurs. So that is something that I think you just get better at, but you still fail. So that's hard. I have no secret. I have a few things I've learned on that side, but I will say, on the growth side too. Before that, as a person, I'm just a fiscally conservative person in general, so I think some entrepreneurs can get especially more kind of visionary and I think I for sure hold the vision, but I'm very conservative. But that helped us. I think I've had to almost pull myself off of that, so I almost can be too conservative, right. So that's something that I've had to learn about myself, which is I need a counterweight to say you know, do this. But at that time it worked. It was a good way to scale. So I am conservative there, but I did realize in terms of people, if I was really going to grow and we have this value prop about growing with sponsored backed businesses. I myself while I am married to somebody that works in PE and I know a lot about PE. I never myself worked inside the doors of PE and I really had to have that in my firm in order to just have that credibility, you know, just to. Okay got it right and so I did decide very early on. We're growing, we're having a lot of success. I knew that I had to have somebody else at a partnership level that was going to be able to move us to the next level, and it had to be somebody that did not have my skills. Chris: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Summer: So I needed somebody that was very, you know, has a different background than me, had a different skill set than me, and so that was, you know, really a game-changing hire. So we brought on at that time Libby Covington. And again, she comes out of private equity, she was in-house at Cap street but also worked at law firms and then had also operated in-house with the Doggett family, so we had a lot in common in that sense. But I knew what she brought and what I brought were going to be complimentary to the market and that was ended up being true. You know that that was. But it was hard right, deciding to bring in, you know, somebody. It's really hard. Chris: You make it sound really easy. Summer: It's not. Chris: Because a lot of people entrepreneurs, maybe just humans in general we tend, you know people that we're like, so you tend to hire people like you Absolutely. Instead of doing. What you should be doing is what you did. And how do you hire someone that fills you out right the other side of the skill sets that you don't have to make the strong team. So you know, kudos to you for seeing that, and I know of Libby from her days at Cap Street. So so then you bring Libby on and there's 30 other people you've hired in a few years. Summer: That's right, that's right. Well, I have, you know, tricia Eaton. She started with me. She was actually my first employee, trisha Eaton, she started with me, she was actually my first employee. She now is in an operations role for me. She's been with me since day one. You can do anything. She's the person that can do anything. You just give her a problem and she just goes and solves it. So she has just been my right-hand woman and I couldn't do this without her. So we had her, we had Libby and then, quickly, we had to hire some subject matter experts. So me and Libby cannot keep delivering all the work. Patricia can't deliver all the work. So we really had to go and fill out the teams and I focused on hiring high-margin employees. So where could I bill and where could I charge for their expertise? Sure, right. And then if there was employees where we didn't really use them that much or it was really low margin, we would usually go with consultants. So I had a bench of 1099s. And we still do. We've less. So now we still do. And again, that was another way where we scaled more slowly. So it didn't, you know, have to get ahead of ourselves on building. When was it the right to have the full-time versus the part-time. That was also a benefit of COVID. So I think COVID and I'm seeing this today too it really, I think, enabled people to work the way that was better for them, like there was a new definition of work. Chris: For sure. Yeah, and it's being talked about every day. Summer: Of course, and especially in your industry too, in law firms with a very kind of traditional track, and I think there's people that say I want to work and do really good work, but I can't work in this way, and whether it was in the office or not, but even if it was maybe I want to do great work, but I need to do it 30 hours a week because I'm taking care of my aging mother or I want this lifestyle. I will make less money, but I need to work this much time from this location. So we leaned in hard on that Huge value prop for us. So I think that was one of my successes of being able to hire really great talent, because I was able to align with the times, because it was what it was but also to truly say I want your best work. I don't care if you need to live in Miami, right, I don't care. If you're telling me I really have to work 30 hours a week because I have personal responsibilities, I'm like great, give me your best 30 hours a week. To me that's better than any you know 40 plus hours a week person. That isn't maybe the best. Chris: Sure. Summer: Right. So I, we scaled that, we scaled through that way, we also would. We have a and we still do this today. We bring people on and we do a 60 day trial, and so and it's written, it's papered up and it says if this isn't a fit fit, we're going to separate fast. Chris: Yeah, there's a lot of value in that and it does help the saying of hire slow, fire fast, absolutely. So you get a test run at it. Summer: That's right, and sometimes you can't hire slow. Sometimes I wish I could. I've got I don't know four roles we're hiring right now and I need them to be filled yesterday. Chris: Right. Summer: But at least we've learned that we do have to have a trial period and we have to be eyes wide open about it. You know we're and I. Just part of our culture and it's part of our values is we do excellent work. So excellence is part of our culture. But also, if you can't meet that excellence, you will be let go, like we fire people, and it's not a scary thing, it's just. You know we're, we just have no tolerance. You know, and what we talked about we something we say in houses we don't have. Just you know we're, we just have no tolerance. You know, and what we talked about we something we say in house is we don't have middle managers. You know we don't have that. You're, you're, everyone's in the spotlight. It's that ownership mentality that's right and everybody's like that, so everyone's in the spotlight. There's no middle, you know. So you years, I mean there's been lots of not home runs you know, it's been you know there's hills and valleys there with hiring. Chris: Well, that's good for people to hear. Right, You're not always going to get it right. There's ups and downs, just like in life. But if you're, if you have a mission, like like Craig group does and like our firm does, then you know what your why is. And if something veers off from that, then you stay true to the why and then make those hard decisions. Summer: Yeah, and it always is. It's always hard. It's the hardest thing we do. Chris: No doubt. I want to talk a little bit about innovation, because clearly what your company's doing is innovative and for PE firms. But just in your space, how do you go about fostering innovation amongst your team and encouraging it within the company? Summer: Yeah, I mean, I think that it is who we are. Honestly, it has to do with every single person that we hire. Again, even going back to that, we don't have any middle managers mindset, which is there's no medium, there's no mediocrity, we're always how could you have done better? How could we have done something faster? Wait, what tools did we not use this time? So those questions are asked. Every engagement we have, I'll say we're doing something pretty different. We do have a few competitors out there not very many, but we do something unique. I mean, we are consultants, we do consult, but we're certainly not a consulting firm typically. You know, we're not an Accenture right, because? Why? Because our people actually get in and then they actually do the work, Not that we don't do at Accenture, but that's our model, it is what we do. So we're boots on the ground, so we actually do the work. So we're not an agency, but we do some agency work right. So and then on the technology side, we have a software platform. It's patent pending. It's all about forecasting and how do we get better at forecasting sales and marketing? And if we can forecast better, we can then make action and take action more quickly. And so those are the three things we do. And again, we have some competitors, but what we do as a company inherently is pretty innovative, Like we're doing something a little different, Like the skill set is a little different. We move faster, you know. We have a different, you know. So we are doing something different. I think everybody at the firm knows that and they're aware of it, it's just ingrained in your culture, it's just who they are. Chris: They know it, and I've been to your website so I'll tell you it absolutely comes across from your website, which I know is part of the thought that went into design of the website. Right, you show up different Yep, so it seems like that's part of when you're hiring these people you're looking for someone that can fit that. Summer: That's exactly right that DNA that innovative mindset. It's right and something that Libby and I talk about all the time and again, I fail on it. Sometimes I succeed, but we hire and we've really landed on this for Craig Group is we have to hire for people that just figure it out? They just get it done. It's like I don't really care what they're, you know exactly what they know or what they've done. It's like can you solve this problem? Just you know, almost like if you just did a business school case and put it in front of them and said solve it. Chris: Well, I'm curious because I've been reading a lot about this lately and we have some internal debate about it in our recruiting process. Summer: Do you do any kind of role play as part of your process to put them in the position or challenge them to see how they problem solve. You know, we don't do it formally and I think maybe we also thought about doing it formally like a formal case. We do it in an informal way, which is here's a situation that we're in Usually, it's a real, it's a real client situation and we say hey, what do you think about this? And let them, you know, talk it through. Right so we do it as part of our interview process, but we certainly don't have it formalized and I think maybe we should. Chris: I feel like there's a lot of value in it. I've heard people a lot smarter than me talk on it, and you know the question is and it is the question of does that scare a candidate away? And my answer that is well, if it does, and maybe we learned something early on we should have won't find out till a year later. Absolutely. I'm kind of at a mindset. It seems like a good idea. Summer: I think it's great. I would agree wholeheartedly. If somebody's scared of any kind of testing, then that's probably not a good. It's probably not a good choice. Chris: It was not going to be the person that says let me prove to you I can do this, I'll figure this out, right. So just interesting. You know people's mindsets on that so that always leads me, maybe, into the culture of Craig Group. How would you describe it and what are some of the things that you believe you're doing that help foster and allow it to grow? Summer: yeah, yeah, I'd say that our culture again, we you know excellence in our work is really the number one pillar. We have a thing on our on our mission also. This is no bs. What we mean by that is we show up authentically. We're real, we're real people, we're real humans. We have, you know, everybody that I work with either is caretaking for somebody else in their family, whether it be aging parents, children. They're passionate about volunteering and they're doing that. So we are whole humans and whole people and so I believe in like I don't want to if somebody shows up in an inauthentic way, it's like I'm fine, everything's fine, and I have no tolerance. So we have this real culture of authenticity, excellence, absolute excellence in client delivery. So everybody shows up with that. It's our culture, because we talk about it in hiring, we talk about it in our all-hands monthly meetings, we talk about it in the way we behave, which is we meet people where they are today. So it's okay in Craig group to be very authentically who you are. So that's just how I am, that's how I run the company, so, so we have an authentic culture. But what that also means is everyone at the company we're on, we're remote. We do have a lot of people in Houston, but we are remote. But that does require people to communicate with each other, which is are you okay, all right, picking up the phone and saying because you, if we're all going to have no bs and we're going to work hard, you have to know what your team how, what is your team okay? Chris: what's going on in their life? Summer: yeah, might impact their ability to deliver excellence 100, which is like tell me, do you need help? Chris: my follow-up question was going to be you sounded like a remote company. So, yeah, creating the, the connectivity of that culture, especially at that level that you're trying to achieve, has got to be challenging because you're not in person. Summer: It's so hard, it's so hard and again, I think it's. You know, we have a cameras on culture, you know, and everyone's cameras are on. I mean, I spend, we are all on. You know, video calls all day. Which pros and cons. Chris: Right. Summer: But I think that everyone's leaned into that. There know we can't be grumpy about that. We're not, you know, and everyone's also required to do really good work. But part from a training standpoint, and I think we're getting better at this, I think we can keep getting better. We're not perfect, but working asynchronously, which is what remote work is Right. Not everybody knows how to do that. Like you can't assume that everybody just knows how to work asynchronously. It's a skill set. Knowing when to do async work versus when do you need to have an in-person meeting, knowing when those workflows that is not something that I think you can just know. Chris: Sure. Summer: And so we definitely have an expectation that everyone works really efficiently asynchronously, and I love asynchronous work. Personally, I think it's way more efficient than getting in a big meeting full of people all at the same time and wasting everybody's time. But there is also this time to get everybody in the meeting and you know, sit together. But we are doing better at training people about asynchronous expectations. So we use you know, very technology heavy, very tool heavy. So we use a tool. There's a tool called Loom. It's a video tool. Basically, you can explain something really quickly on your own time and then send it to people so then they can go figure out what you're trying to explain to them. even if you couldn't meet in person. We use project management software. Basecamp is the one we use. Other people use Asana, so we use Basecamp, and all of our work is asynchronously matched. And so I think that culture though one thing that does it, we move really fast. So the culture is again with the excellence and you can move fast with async work. Sometimes it slows you down, sure, because you need to just pick up the phone Instead of you know, so you can. And that's a lot of times where I get into things Is, hey, let's stop doing this Call like call each other, you know somebody's not understanding, right, but our culture is really, we move really fast. Our clients have extremely, extremely high expectations. I mean our clients are you know? PE firms. They're, you know, there's no tolerance. Chris: And they're worried about the ROI and they want the growth yesterday. Yes. Summer: Yesterday and they, you know. So we work under that pressure with all of our clients high intensity, high growth. So we're high intensity, high. You know that we match our clients. We're yeah, that's what, that's who we are, and I think it works really well with a remote team. I think we've been able to hire people that want that, that high intensity work. If you don't want it, you can tell and it doesn't work with that. Chris: It shows up real quick, it shows up. Yeah, so you were talking about, you know, your base clients, the PE firms. Let's talk about what are some of the things you found to be successful for you and your company to kind of build and maintain those relationships so that you keep them and you get more. Summer: Yeah, absolutely so. I think it's challenging to, I think, sell anything which we're selling a service, right, but I think it's challenging to sell into. I don't want to put them all in the same basket. So not all PE or independent sponsors are sponsored, because they're not all created equal, right, so that's. I can say that but it is a tight group of people. It's a it's tight knit. It's a small group. I think it's an it's elite. Most people that have those roles are very well educated. They have great experience. I think you really have to be trustworthy, like they are not going to pull in a partner that has not been vetted. You know that, had that, that hasn't really been like. You know this is the real deal. So those relationships are really hard-earned. You know those are not easy to come by. I will say me and Libby both have our own sets of networks. That was enabled, sort of the catalyst. But the only reason why that's been able, we've had success, is because we've had to prove it. And when we prove it, you know, we then can build onto the next one and the next one. And I mean our model would be that we become a partner with the firm and that they bring us in on multiple portfolio companies and that's what happens, right. But it's hard. It's not something that you don't. You know we're not selling. You know something that's not high value, high stakes, and we really are a partner. We're not a, you know, a vendor and that takes a lot of trust. We have to spend a lot of time. Chris: Yeah, it's funny because I can totally relate. Our mindset here at the firm is the same. We want to be as we say this all the time the legal partner to our clients, an extension of the C-suite, not a vendor, not a commodity, but an actual value-added partner. Summer: Yes, that's exactly right. And it's hard to get there. You don't just say that and you know you're like oh, I want to be your growth partner. I want to be a member of your management team. It's like OK, prove it. Chris: Right. Summer: Right, and so I think that we do that. I think our team consistently delivers best in class results and best in class work. We're also right sized for the lower middle market and middle market, and I think that's what needs to happen. We can't you know it's not Bain, right? No, and they can't, they couldn't, they can't do it anyways Right, but we're also not, you know, your sister's brother that's going to help you with sales and marketing. That you know out of their garage. So I think we're right size and for our size, like for where we are in the market, I think we're an absolute best in class option and we've had to prove it and prove it and that's also why we have best in class talent, because we've proven it and proven it. But it's definitely been. You know it's a hard fought. It's hard fought. Chris: You know every single win is a hard you're only as good as the last one, that's right. Summer: I mean it's dig and ditches hard. You know, it's like we have to say. I mean we're making sure that every time we deliver the work product, the trust and then also the ability to immediately implement our plan, and that's one of we really stake our hats on that, like we don't just give you a here's some really great ideas that you can't implement, nor do you have the money to go hire the team to do it. So we really just hang our hat on, let's roll, let's go, and it's like ready to go, and so that's hard, it's hard work. You know this is tough and so that's exactly right We've got. You know we need that to be so good that the firm, the CEO of the port co and the firm are going to say man, that was really worth it. What would we do without that team? How would we, where would we be right now without that team? Chris: Where else can we use them? Summer: And that's what they. You know it's like we can't. We have to. You know, we have to keep. I think we can always get better. Chris: The results would suggest that. But to your point, the last word you just said right was if you don't have the mindset of continuing to, how can we improve? You're going to get left behind. Summer: That's right, and I think, a lot of my core team. You know one of my senior strategists, Macy Allen. I think every time she works on something, she comes up with another innovative idea about. You know what, if we would have done this or wait this tool, can we try out this tool? We're really leaned into that technology and AI in our work, but I think that what works so well is the answer is yes. Bring it in, let's try it, let's test it no-transcript and just your leadership style. Chris: How would you describe that and how do you think it's evolved since you started this five years ago? Summer: Yeah, well, I mean, I think it definitely has evolved, you know, I think that also going from having you know two people to this very large team. We're very flat organization so we don't have lots of hierarchy. So most people directly report to me probably too many, which is something we're working on. But I think I've got a very straightforward management style so there's really not a lot of dancing around things. There's not a lot of confusion. If I'm telling you something, it's probably going to be very clear. I also give feedback continuously. I believe in spot feedback so we don't wait and write it down and wait for the quarter end to go back and like report. I think that's just tiresome. So everyone is encouraged to give spot feedback both you know, positive and negative and do it in that moment. Sometimes I will do it in our project management tool and say spot feedback and just put it. And that way if it's written. Sometimes they can have some time to react. Chris: Right. Summer: As opposed to kind of. Chris: I like how you signpost it though. Yeah, I say spot feedback. Summer: Like prepare thyself. You are getting feedback. Yeah, and I put it and I just say it, and I think that I lead with kindness, always, always. I think that truth without kindness is cruelty and that's a direct quote from my husband, jason Craig, one of his themes and I think that being kind to people, even when you're frustrated and is, is the only way to be. So lead with kindness, but also tell the truth, which is this you know this went well, this didn't go well, you know, but it's not. It's not about you as a human. You know this isn't a. You know we're not making a personal judgment about you, but this work product, you know, wasn't what it needed to be or whatever it is. But I tend to give feedback. You know, again, it's rapid, it's in this, it's like I lead. You know, very, you know, crisply in the moment I've had to get even more efficient with that, with a lot of people you know, and I don't see all the things, and so I definitely try to speak to every a lot of people to get you know other people's opinions on work product. So I talked to a lot of people. I talked to clients ask for feedback and then go and manage my employees. That are what I heard from clients. So yeah, I think I'm a management style again. I think I get a lot of feedback, a lot information, but crisp, kind, but really Christmas and some compassion right, always, always. Chris: So that's something you mentioned. I don't think a lot of people think to do or they think to. They think about it but they're scared to do it, and that's get feedback from your clients. Summer: Yeah. Chris: Right, it's the most valuable feedback you can get because you're really trying to serve the clients. But if you're not delivering what they want in the way they want it, you're missing the mark. Right, you can work hard and you can believe it's excellent, but if they don't believe it's excellent, hard and you can believe it's excellent, but if they don't believe it's excellent. So anything you do this kind of systemize that, or is that just you know periodic check-ins with your clients, or I don't like that. Summer: You know people will disagree with me on that and there's a whole theory in marketing around, you know, net promoter scores, which is it's just a survey, essentially that we're just not big enough for that. Like I need to be able to call all my CEOs which I do and can, and I get feedback and write it down. I mean, you know, and I talked to all of my CEOs at least every other week and I asked them all every time, you know, and sometimes they would say I don't even know, go talk to the other team and I do which is great, because if the CEO doesn't know if if anything's good or bad, that's great. Chris: That means there's no problem excellent. Summer: But no, I do it continuously. I see that as really one of my roles in sort of steering the ship is talking and saying you know what's, you know and I want everything. I want silly stuff, little bitty, you know things. I got some of that last week. It was a really super small thing, but that you know it matters. That's right. You know I don't, you know I want all the things. So I just try to have a relationship that's very trustworthy. It's informal in the sense that we can talk. I want that kind of relationship. I don't need it to be something that's this big thing. Chris: You don't need an email saying click the button and fail the survey. Summer: I really hate it. I really do I mean again somebody's going to quote me on that in a few years when we do that and send the email but I just no thanks, We'll ask directly? Chris: I don't. I'm not in favor of them either, and I don't know that you get the most authentic feedback. Yeah, right now, at some point, if you're so big, maybe you don't have a choice. Summer: But yeah never lose the personal yeah, that's right, that's right. Chris: Summer, this has been such a fun conversation. I want to just end on a few lighter notes. Okay, what was your first job growing up? Summer: oh, lifeguard, life lifeguard. Out at pecan grove, country club, out in richmond texas, which might have been my most favorite job I've ever had. I still like love it taught because you had to wear. Chris: You got to wear a bathing suit. You were the most tan you ever did. I was the most tan. Summer: I also love to swim. I love teaching swim lessons and I was a swimmer, and it was just it was great very good. Native texan native texan born in odessa, texas. Yeah, native native Texan Lived in Oklahoma, lived in Illinois, but I'm back in Texas. Chris: Okay, so do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Summer: Tex-Mex, all right yeah. Chris: I usually ask people this question, but you have three young kids so I don't know. But if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where'd you go and what'd you do? Summer: Yeah, my husband and I, even though we live in the flattest part of Texas I think that's under sea level we really love to mountain climb. So we're hikers and climbers. We try to take a pretty big trip every year or so if we can. We did a really big trip this summer. It would be a no-brainer. I mean we would go and climb a really big mountain. Aconcagua in South America has been on his list. I can't quite get it on mine because it's a 30-day trip and I can't. I've got a 11-year-old, a nine-year-old and a five-year-old and I can't quite do that. But if I could wave a magic wand and I could be gone for 30 days, I would go climb Aconcagua and spend time in South America. Chris: How cool. That's a good one. Well, thanks again for taking the time. Love your story. Congratulations on the success that you've already achieved and that I know that's in your future. Summer: Thanks, Chris, appreciate having me on. Special Guest: Summer Craig.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I chat with Renee Morris, Chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter. We explore her path from management consultant to leading a national hair care brand. Renee shares her approach to maintaining business control by relying on personal savings and family support rather than external investors. She discusses forming partnerships with major retailers like Target and Walgreens while building a creative team to drive innovation. I learned how she tackles recruitment challenges and ensures brand visibility at a national level. Looking ahead, Renee explains her vision to expand into skincare and education, and serving communities of color in new ways. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Renee Morris discusses her journey from management consultant to Chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter, emphasizing her desire to balance career ambitions with family life. We explore Renee's decision to purchase an existing company rather than starting from scratch, leveraging her experience in sales and marketing strategy within the consumer products sector. Renee highlights the importance of having a financial safety net when transitioning to entrepreneurship, sharing her personal experience of not drawing a salary for years and relying on her husband's support. We talk about Renee's strategic decision to avoid third-party investors to maintain control over her business, focusing on conservative growth and solving customer problems. Renee explains her approach to forming strategic partnerships with major retailers like Target and Walgreens, discussing the role of distributors in helping small brands enter national markets. We discuss the challenges of recruiting and nurturing talent, emphasizing the importance of fostering a collaborative environment that encourages innovation and creative thinking. Renee outlines her vision for expanding the brand into adjacent areas such as skincare and education, aiming to serve the community of color more broadly. We explore Renee's leadership style, focusing on adaptability and learning from failures as she considers new business ventures. Renee shares personal insights from her early career and hiring experiences, emphasizing the importance of trusting one's instincts during the recruitment process. We examine the role of social media and influencers in maintaining customer confidence and visibility during brand transitions, particularly when changes are made to product packaging. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Uncle Funky's Daughter GUESTS Renee MorrisAbout Renee TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Renee Morris, chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter. Renee shares her passion for helping curly girls solve their hair problems with unique and innovative natural hair products. Renee, I want to thank you for coming on Building Texas Business. It's so glad, happy to have you as a guest. Renee: Thank you, I'm excited to be here. Chris: Okay, so you won the award so far for having the coolest and, I would say, funky, but that would be. Renee: Play on words Right. Chris: But as far as a name for a company, uncle Funky's Daughter, yes. Okay, tell us what is your company known for and what do you do? Renee: So Uncle Funky's Daughter is a hair products company. We're based here in Houston, texas. I bought the company, so the parent company is Rotenmore's Consumer Group. But I bought the brand Uncle Funky's Daughter 10 years ago from a husband and wife team. So Uncle Funky's Daughter curates natural hair products for women, men and children who choose to wear their hair naturally, and so that's shampoos, conditioners, curl definers, moisturizers, stylers, finishers. Shampoos, conditioners, curl definers, moisturizers, stylers, finishers you name it, we make it. We also have a thermal protection line for women who want to blow dry and style their hair with heat, and we're distributed nationally Target, walgreens, kroger, cvs, heb, locally, so you name it, other than Walmart, we're there. Chris: Beauty Easy to find, easy to find, easy to find well, I have to ask this because I have daughters. I mean Sephora or Ulta. Renee: No, Sephora or Ulta. Yet we've been working that line. We can talk about that as part of this deep dive, but we've been working that line and but no land in Sephora or Ulta just yet okay, very good. Chris: So how did you find your way into the hair care product world? Because you didn't start there. Renee: No, I am a former management consultant 20 years management consulting, advising clients multi-billion dollar companies on how to drive revenue growth and through sales and marketing. And I was a mother of three kids. At the time my son was probably three or four, my daughters were two and I was flying back and forth between Houston and New York for a client. And I had this realization that I didn't want to do that as a mom. I needed to be home, but I still wanted to be a career person. So I knew I am not built to be a stay-at-home mother. That is not who I am, and COVID taught me that with isolation. And so what I started deciding was I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do next and I realized I had some options. Right, it's that fork in the road that you go through. You start to look inwardly every time you have that fork in the road and I did that and I said okay, your option A is to go find a company based in Houston and be a VP or senior VP of some operation. Option B is you find a small company and you're like a big fish in a small pond kind of thing. Option C is you just go do your own thing. And after I kind of went through it, I realized I worked for the Coca-Colas, like in GE Capitals of the world, in my past. I didn't want to go work for a big company. I didn't think I wanted to work for a small company because of my personality style, right, um. And so I decided I wanted to go buy something and then or have my own company. And so then the question becomes do you build or do you buy my? I'm a management consultant by heart, so it's always go buy something. Why? Because I can take it, I can fix it and I can grow it. And so then it became all right, well, what are you going to go buy? And so, like most people out there, they're thinking about buying a company. I started reaching out to brokers, I started doing some networking, calling attorneys, people that work on deals, that kind of stuff, just putting my name out there, and I got all the things that you normally get when you're looking to buy a company the gym, the dry cleaner, the storage facility, the gas station, all the things that I didn't want to buy because I didn't have a passion for them. And so, also, for background, my consulting experience in sales and marketing strategy has been predominantly in consumer products. So I know consumer products, I know revenue growth, I know marketing strategy. So I was like okay, so I kept looking and I used this hair product called Uncle Funky's Daughter. I found it when I first moved here in 2000. Like all curly girls out there back then, that was almost 20 years ago, my goodness. But 15 years ago back then there weren't a lot of natural hair products out there for women of color and women of curly hair with curly hair specifically. And so I googled when I first moved here natural hair products, curly hair, houston and Uncle Funky Stoddard came up. I've never heard of this company right. So I go to rice village and buy this product and I start using it. Extra butter, start using it. And for those out there that are, you know, african American descent, you know thick, curly hair, we do this thing called two strand twists to what. I love it. Two strand twist. Chris: Okay. Renee: So, you take your hair and you twist it in like instead, instead of braiding it, you put it in twists, and there are single twists all over my head right. So that's how I would style my hair wear it, rock a two strand twist. Those out there will understand that, look it up and then Google it and then and so that worked on my hair really well. And so, again, for those with tight, curly hair, finding the right hair product that works for your hair is tough. It is not easy, as you know. One of your team members, courtney, was talking about. She's gone through all the products Because you go through this product journey trying to find something that works for you right. So found Extra Butter, worked, loved it, and then I would stop using it while I'm traveling because I would forget it right at home sure. I would go back to some other competitive brand and it didn't work for my hair. So I'm like, okay, uncle Funky's daughter is the only thing that works for my hair. So I go in to get my Uncle Funky's daughter one day, after I, you know, had braids and wash them out. And yada, yada, yada. I'm going in, I'm getting my extra butter and this guy behind the counter who I bought hair products from for the past at this point, five years, says yeah, my wife and I are going through a divorce and I'm like, oh, so I do have an MBA right. I'm not some, you know, trying to sound like a shark, but my MBA said distressed asset might be willing to sell stress asset might be willing to sell. Like literally, that is the voice that went in my head. And so I was like, oh really. So I stood there in that store and I just chatted with him for hours and about the company, you know what, you know personally what he was going through, because divorce, you know, for those that may have gone through it, can be an emotional, you know troubling time. So I was a listening ear. But as I'm listening, I'm also thinking about like, okay, what's the story behind the brand? Is this going to resonate? And I'm also watching people come in and out, right. And so I said, well, if you guys are you guys thinking about selling it? And he gives me a story about you know what's happening with the sell and cell and I said, well, if you're ever thinking about selling it, let me know. So I walk out, I Google, because you know this is horrible to say, but divorces are public right right. Chris: Is it filed in state court? Renee: it's a public record so I'm figuring out what's happening with the divorce and I find out that the company is in receivership. And for those who don't know, because I did not know at the time what a receivership was, a receivership happens when a divorce is happening and the husband and wife aren't operating, behaving appropriately. Chris: Well, they can't agree on the direction of the company and it can be not in a divorce. But basically, owners cannot agree and a court may appoint a receiver to run the company. Renee: Exactly. Thank you, that's why you're the attorney and a court may appoint a receiver to run the company Exactly. Chris: Thank you. That's why you're the attorney. Renee: Have a little experience with that yes, so the judge had appointed this guy to be the receiver. I reached out to the gentleman and I said I'm interested in the sale of Uncle Funky's daughter, if that so happens to be the case. And so the one thing I did learn and you can probably expound on this is oftentimes in a divorce, when the receiver comes in, at that point that receiver is really thinking about how to get rid of this asset. And so those are all the things that I learned during this process, and I was like, okay, so he wants to sell because he wants to get paid and he knows nothing about this business. Chris: He was, you know no offense, no emotional tie to it, for sure no emotional tie. Renee: He's an older white gentleman who knows nothing about black hair products and so I was like, okay, so he doesn't know, he doesn't have an appreciation for the value of the company. And so I reached out and I said, okay, here's a number. You wouldn't believe the number I gave him and he counted with some minor you, some minor adjustment, and we bought this company for less than $100,000. And they had a revenue at the time. When I saw their tax returns, I think it was maybe a million or so that they claimed in revenue. At some point they said, but at least for sure I think our first year of revenue was probably around and it was a partial year. Probably a quarter million dollars is what revenue they generated, and so we really, if you talk about a multiple of sales, we bought it on a tremendous it's a heck of a deal the deal. Okay, I can't find those deals these days. If anybody has one of those deals, you come let me know and so. So that's how we ended up buying this company ten years ago and shortly thereafter, target comes knocking at the door and says, hey, we were having this discussion with the owners about, you know, potentially launching. Would you be interested? And I'm like, absolutely. And it was because they were going through this divorce that they couldn't get over the finish line, right? And so shortly after we buy, we're launching in target. But before I did that, one of the first things I did was because, if you ever, if any, it's probably so old you can't find it. But the label. When I first bought the company, when I was buying it, it was this woman's face with a big afro on the front and it had a cute little 70s vibe on it and it was in this white hdpe bottle which, by the way, those aren't recyclable. So I said first, we need to change this, we got to change the packaging, we got to upgrade the label, we need to make it universally appealing to all curly girls, because if I look at a woman with a big afro, I think tight, curly hair like mine right and our products work across the spectrum from wavy, like Courtney, to really tight, like Renee, and that wasn't representative on the label okay so we redesigned the label, changed the bottle from an HDPE bottle to a PET bottle, which is recyclable, and then just upgraded this packaging to what I consider a sleeker new look. Chris: Very good, Great story, Thank you. So back up a little bit, share a little bit, because so you go from big corporate consulting job some comfort in there probably. You mentioned travel and you did mention the mom aspect playing a role. But let's talk a little bit about actually getting the courage to take that leap out of the big corporate role into. I'm going to buy something that's all on me now to either make it or break it. Yeah, that had to be scary. Renee: It was, and I am fortunate in that. You're right. I had comfort. We have financial security. I had a husband who was, who still is, who's a senior executive in medical devices has nothing to do with anything about consumer products, but you know, we have the luxury for him to say I can carry this load, financial load, and I think that's the big mix, right? I tell people all the time if you're going to take that leap, you got to make sure you've got cash flow, because for not only for your, you know, for the company, but for you personally, right? Because there were several years where my husband called my business a hobby Because I was contributing nothing to the financial plan. Chris: In fact, you were probably taken away. Yeah, I was taken away. Renee: So every year I mean. So I wasn't drawing a salary. I didn't draw a salary for a couple of years after I, I didn't draw a salary until our tax accountant said you have to draw a salary because we're changing you from whatever tax to an S-corp. And I was like oh, wow, really Okay. So what am I going to pay myself? Okay, and then he goes Well, you have, and it has to be reasonable. So for probably three or four years after I bought the company, I didn't draw a salary. I was paying my employees but I wasn't paying myself. And so I think and I say all that to say yes, it takes a leap, but it also takes the ability and the willingness to take that financial hit Right. So were there things that we probably wanted to do as a family that we didn't do? Probably so. Chris: Yeah. Renee: Because I'm growing this brand and was there times I went to my husband like I need another thirty thousand dollars? Probably so. And because one of the things I specifically had chosen is I did not want, and I currently still don't want, to pull in private equity, vc any type of third party investor funding. That is a personal decision I've made and it's because I am a former accountant and I'm extremely financially conservative and I also don't want different incentives to help influence how I run my business, different incentives to help influence how I run my business, and what I mean by that is I personally just didn't want to have a PE company saying you need to do these three things because your multi, your EBITDA needs to look like this and your revenue growth needs to look like that. Right, so I could have we could have easily grown really fast, like a lot of brands do, and grown themselves out of business, or, but I chose the path to grow really conservatively Now, and so I think I say all that to say I think, yes, financially speaking, having the bandwidth to be able to float yourself and your company for a while is critical, and so don't take the leap if you're still, if you're at your job today, living paycheck to paycheck right, you have to have a cushion. Your job today, living paycheck to paycheck right, you have to have a cushion. So what that means is, maybe if you're trying to start the company, then you're running your business while you're living paycheck to paycheck and oh, by the way, you gotta stop living paycheck to paycheck because you got to start to build that cushion, right. So some of the you got to make sacrifices and I think that's the hard thing. Not everyone's willing to make the financial sacrifice that it takes to really run and grow a business without third party support. Now, in today's world, you can go get bc capital funding and you know money is flowing, or at least it was, you know but there, but there's sacrifices, but there's sacrifices with that, and so, yeah, that's great advice, you know. Chris: The other thing that you mentioned, as you were evaluating companies is one of my favorite words when it comes to business is passion. You passed on a ton of things because you weren't passionate about it. Renee: Yeah. Chris: You found something you were passionate about, and I think that's a lesson for people too, right Is? It's not easy to do. As you mentioned. Sacrifices have to be made. So if you're not really passionate about that decision to go be an entrepreneur, start your own business. It's going to be tough. Renee: Yeah, it's going to be tough, and so, because I have to wake up every day, I my passion is really helping people solve problems, and I do that through hair, because hair is a problem in the curly hair community. How do I maintain frizz? How do I keep it under control? How do I keep it healthy so it doesn't break? How do I keep it healthy so it can grow? How do I stop the scalp irritation? There's so many problems that happen in hair and so I what I think about. Like literally yesterday I was with my marketing team and we're talking about a campaign for the next month for products etc. Or really November, and I said, OK, what problem are we helping her solve? And that's literally the way I think about stuff what problem are we helping her solve? Because if we're not helping her solve a problem, then I don't have anything to talk about. Chris: Ok, Right, yeah, it's not going to move off the shelf. Renee: It's not going to move off the shelf thing to talk about. Chris: Okay, right, yeah, it's not going to move off the shelf. It's not going to move off the shelf. So another thing that you kind of alluded to, you went through somewhat. It sounds like a kind of transforming the business that you took over, right? You mentioned the product label and packaging. Let's talk. What else did you, you know, in taking that business over, did you find yourself having to change, and how did you go about making those decisions? Are either prioritizing them and you know we can't do it all- at once yeah, so what walk? us through some of the learning you went through that well, you know what's interesting is. Renee: So it wasn't much of a transformation, but it was. If you think about learning from a marketing standpoint, if you're going to buy a business, especially a consumer product company, and you buy it in today's world where we're so used to knowing who the owner is the first people don't like change. So one of the first things I had to do was convince our current customers that nothing had changed other than the label. The minute your package changes and it looks different, they're like the formulas have changed, it's not the same be the same. It's not the same product. So the first thing I had to do was convince them that this is the same product. In fact, I brought back discontinued SKUs that the receiver had stopped selling because they were slow moving. **Chris: How did you go about convincing the existing customer base? Nothing changed. Renee: So news articles, facebook articles, facebook social ads, like having live conversations, going live on social media all of those were things that I had to go in and dispute or Dubuque being like I was the person respond. There was no team, it was me and one other person. The first person I hired was a social media person. Okay, wasn't a warehouse person, it was a social media person because I knew being the being in the face of the customer was so important. So being live and answering questions online, answering the phone and people would call they will go. I heard that this wasn't the same formula. No, ma'am, it's the same formula. And actually having those, it was me having those live, one-on-one conversations. And so I think really touching the customer and being personal with her was the key to our success in in gaining that confidence. And we also you know this was early in the days of influencers we also had to partner with people to be able to talk about. Like it's the same stuff, guys, this is the bottle. This is the old bottle. This is the new bottle. This is both sides of my hair, no change. Chris: Okay, okay, very smart to especially, like you said, I mean so many people now the social media influencers have such impact on what products get picked up in the mainstream. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Chris:So let's move forward a little bit. Part of changing things new products. There's a level. You mentioned your marketing meeting yesterday. What do you do within the company to help kind of foster innovation and inspire your people to be innovative about the products? Renee: That's a tough one because it's hard. Here's the challenge that we have as a small company. As a small company, it's hard for me to afford to pay me like the equivalent of a me right. The woman or a man with the MBA in marketing who's got, you know, 10 years at Coca-Cola. I am oftentimes recruiting talent, that's learning and I'm teaching, as they, you know, grow up in our company and so innovation is really. You know, I'm usually in that meeting asking the provocative question Like do these assets, does this story come together like cohesively, what problems are we helping them solve? Like, I am there helping them think through and push their thinking a little bit forward. We'll sit and we just do brainstorming with, you know, little toys in the room and stuff to play with, but it's really just helping them kind of. All right, just toss some ideas out there. Let's just throw like what is this, what does this mean? What's her brand voice? What does she sound like? What does she look like? Like asking those questions to help them just kind of think outside of the box. Now, if she looks like this, so what kind of tone is she going to have? All right, so what would she say then? Okay, so let's talk about, like how then that manifests itself and how it shows up creatively, and so just helping them kind of drill down to the so what is really kind of the role I like to play. It's the role I'm playing right now because I'm looking for a marketing director. Chris: Okay, yeah, anybody listening out there. Renee: Anybody listening out there? Submit resumes. Chris: So you talked about some major players as partners that you have right, yeah. Target and Walgreens and CVS, et cetera. So let's talk a little bit about that. How did you go about? You kind of you told a little bit about Target, but what have you done and what have you found to be successful? And maybe strategies that weren't successful in forming those relationships, but maybe, even more importantly, fostering and maintaining those relationships. Renee: So forming on the forming side retailers. For those who may or may not know the space, they want to come to you in one of two ways either direct or indirect through a distributor. For a small brand like mine, it's usually hey, I don't want to service direct, I want you to go through a distributor. And usually it's because when you first launch, you're going to be in a handful of their stores not full distribution is what they call it so not in all 1700 Target stores, but I think we started out in a hundred and so we had to go through a third-party distributor, and so that distributor then opened the door to other national retailers for us. So if you're thinking about launching into a national retail partner and you're a small company like mine, your best route to market is finding a distributor that represents your category in a national retailer. So whether that's peanut butter, hair products, lotions, flat tires, whatever, so you have to go and find that distributor. So that was step one. Once we got that relationship, our job is to grow it by driving traffic through the stores and getting that sell through. If it's not generating units per store per week, it gets pulled right. So one person wisely said a retail shelf space is like real estate. Once you buy your home, you don't want to lose it to foreclosure. So once you've got that slot, my job is to defend those two slots. And when I say we're national retailers, we're not like a P&G where P&G dominates the shelf. We've got sometimes two slots, sometimes four, but we're not, we don't have 10. So our slots are really important for us at a retailer and so for me, maintaining the relationship comes back to driving the traffic to the store. But, more importantly, supply chain. So when I talked about growing too fast for some brands and having measured growth, it was very important for me because I understood I came from a consulting company, although I did did sales and marketing most of what we did as an organization was supply chain. I wasn't the supply chain person, but I like to say I knew enough to be dangerous when I bought Uncle Plunky's daughter. So because I understood supply chain, I knew that not, we could not risk. We needed to have safety stock, we need to have inventory levels that look like x, and so that's why I did what I called measured growth. And so you know the distributor may come to me and go. I can get you into Kroger, walmart. Nope, we're going to do one retailer a year, one big guy a year, because I need to make sure I can scale, I need to make sure my contract manufacturers can scale, I need to make sure my team knows what to do and they know how to execute and fulfill the requirements of that specific retailer and so that we are successful. So that was the way that we grew and that's kind of the way we've continued to grow. Chris: That's so smart, that discipline right. It's easier said than done, because you just start a company and you go a couple years not making any money, or what you do make you put back in the company and then you got all these great opportunities. Come at you once. Renee: It's easy to say yes yes, yes, yes and yes, but you can't fulfill those promises, no one will come back. And there are horror stories where brands have been like yes, I'll go into Target, walmart, kroger, heb, cvs and Walgreens all at the same time and they can't meet the demand or they launch and they don't have enough awareness in the consumer market to be able to support and drive the traffic in all of those stores. So you really have to focus on how you're going to grow, where you're going to grow, and how you're going to drive traffic into these markets and into those stores. Chris: I mean any details you can put behind that, just as some examples to make it a little more tangible of things that you did, things that you thought about. Okay, we have to get this right to kind of prove that we can go to the next level. Renee: Yes. So for Target we did a lot of in-store events, so we took Target. So imagine if I was doing replicating this across like five different retailers. But for Target back in the day, for social media was much more organic and less pay-per-play than it is now, right, so we would do like it's a 10-day countdown. You know, to Target we're launching in 10, 9, 8, like on social media, it was like running ads. Then we did a find us in the Target, so we would do these fun games on social media and our followers would have to find us in their local Target and if they found us and they won a gift card, so we were doing anything we could. We would do in-store events where we would just have a table popped up where you can try products, give away products, get coupons, you name it. We were doing it. Gotcha, we were doing events outside the store. Inside the store. I was rogue because I didn't have permission from Target to do this. I mean because that would have cost me tens of thousand dollars, right, Target, I hope you're not listening and so we would literally just grab a camera and kind of come in and we would kind of sneak our little basket through the store down the hall and we would sit in there and the manager would come like, oh, we're just doing some footage, and I would say I just launched and I'm really trying to help my business and they would get it because you know, their local store manager, and so they would allow us to do like a little bit of a, a little bit of a pop-up shop kind of thing, and they would allow it. Now, today they probably wouldn't allow it because we're probably a lot more disciplined, but 15 years ago, 10 years ago, they would allow it and so, yeah, so those are the things that we had to do. So imagine if I was doing that for sally, for walmart, for kro, all in the same year, and I'm still trying to drive the traffic right, because we were still a small brand. Chris: Sure. Renee: I still call us a small brand because you know, if I go to you and I say, have you heard of Uncle Funky's Daughter? And your answer is no, then I'm a small brand, right. If I say you cause, everybody's heard of Clorox, coca-cola, pepsi, all the things, right, lacroix, you name it, they've heard of it, they haven't heard of Uncle Funky's Daughter. And so we're still in constant mode of brand awareness, and so trying to build that brand awareness and drive demand in every retail shelf at the same time would have been a daunting task for a brand like ours. Chris: Sure, do you still have the Rice Village? No, okay, shut that down we shut it down. Renee: I shut it down when I bought the company. That was the condition of the acquisition, because the day that I went and discovered who the owner was of the brand and I was sitting there chatting up the guy, in about a four hour period that I was there, maybe three people walked into that door okay so that you know, my brain said all right, that's a like a revenue killer. I'm not, you're not driving revenue right you need to focus on driving traffic on the retail shelf, and so are. We have no physical retail store now. Will we once again one day, maybe in a different format? Right, because now you, my friends? Other people have said you guys should open up a salon, and I'm like so maybe we'll open up a salon where the products are available and featured, but a retail store exclusively focused on our products will not be in a timeline. Chris: Okay. So there's an example right of an idea from friends. Maybe you thought about it, of branching out from what's core to your business. So far you've said no because you haven't done it. Maybe it's still out there. Why have you not done that? And I guess what could you counsel some listeners if they're faced with that? Or maybe they've done it and trying to make it work Again. That's another danger point, right Before you kind of branch into something different. Renee: So there are two things what I think about. Again. I always go from management consultant first right when I think about my business. I don't think about it personally, right, I think about it objectively. So I can go deep in my vertical or I can go wide horizontally, and I can do both. And so right now, where we are as a brand, honestly, is we need to go deeper in R&D and innovation. So we have not had an opportunity to launch a new product since COVID, and so we're in the process of developing a new product, so that's my primary focus. A new product line so we're developing a new product line, so that's my front focus. New product line so we're developing a new product line, so that's my front focus. Then, as I start to think about adjacency, about how do we take our core and expand and pivot beyond. Do you go to Skin next and stay in consumer products and go into Skin? Do you go in the two places that I'm more actively looking at Skin is out there as a product extension, but that's still core to Uncle Funky's Daughter. Do you go and do you buy another small company within Rote Morris Consumer Group and now you build a portfolio of brands? Because that's, really what I wanted to do when I started Rote Morris Consumer Group. My vision is to have a portfolio of consumer goods brands that meet the needs of the community of color, whether it's beauty, so for beauty. So that could be hair, that could be skin, it could be makeup, it could be a variety of different things that help her solve her problems every day. So that's really the vision. And then I bought this building a couple years ago and we have this wonderful, amazing space, and so and I open up this space I'm looking around. What are we gonna do with the rest of this space? We have this whole first floor, we have a whole second floor that's unoccupied, and even before I bought the building, this idea of building talent and a pipeline of funky junkies is what we call our followers funky junkies yeah that's what we call our followers, our customers. But how do you start to build not only a pipeline of loyal customers but a pipeline of loyal users? And so I started thinking about what if you actually had a trade school? What if you actually started? What if you were the next Paul Mitchell for African-American hair products, right when there's a Paul Mitchell school and you're teaching natural hair instead of you know other treatments that they do, and those exist outside of Texas. There's one that exists in Houston, but not focused on natural hair, but focused on beauty school. And so for those people out there who choose to have a different path in life and not go to college, but they're looking for a vocation or trade school and they want to be a hairstylist or barber, do you create a space for them to be able to do that? So that's the second adjacency. And then the third adjacency is then do you go the other end? So I know how to do hair, I'm learning how to do hair, I've got hair products, I'm doing hair on the other side and that's where the salon comes in. So in all both ends of the spectrum, I am a deep analytical person, so it's understanding what's happening in the market. So in the salon side, you look and you have to figure out and this is for anyone right. You never take a leap in adjacencies just because you think you have the money, the capability, the resources, whatever. You have to understand what's happening in the market because you're not smarter than the whole market. You might be smarter than a couple people in the market, but not the whole market. And so when I look at the hair salon space, I knew of several people in the Houston market that had launched salons and they had failed. They had failed within a three-year cycle and they had failed because the type of offering service offering that they wanted to provide was challenging. And that's the same service offering that we would need to provide as a brand. Chris: Right. Renee: And resources and talent. Going back to this other end of the pipeline I was talking about, in the supply chain, those can be sometimes challenging resources to recruit and retain in a salon side, and so when I do the analysis, it's looking at the risk versus reward. How am I smarter than the next person? How do I learn from those failures and ensure that I can recruit talent where I'm not? I don't have a high degree of turnover. I can create brand consistency. I can create service levels that meet the needs of not only what I want to offer, but what our customers expect. I need to exceed it, and so, because I haven't gotten that magic formula yet, we're leaving the salon right here in the marketplace. Chris: It's still on the drawing board right. Still on the drawing board, I like. I like it well, as it should be, until you figure it out, right? Yeah well, so let's turn a little bit and talk a little more about you yeah in leadership. How would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's changed or evolved in the last 10 years? Renee: so I am a type a, hardcore type a. I am a driver and I know that about myself. But I also know that one of my weaknesses as a leader is I don't micromanage. What I have learned to evolve because of my consulting background, right In a consulting world you know 20 plus years is how I was trained. I'm a former salesperson. You just go get it done right, you know. So that is that's kind of like my bread and butter, and you have a team of type A's that are pretty much driven just like you are. So when you guys have a clear plan and you've got the end goal, all you're doing is managing the type A's to make sure that they get to the goal right at a very high level. No one needs to. You set meetings to review the spreadsheet and the spreadshe's done right. Fast forward to Uncle Funky's daughter. You set meetings to review the spreadsheet and it's like, oh, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, what you wanted me to do, so it requires much more. What I'm learning is it requires me to evolve my leadership style from one that's hands off, that's a little bit more hands-on, to make sure that my team understands where the bar of excellence is what our customers want from us, what the implications are when we miss deadlines, what the implications are if we ship the wrong product to the wrong customer, and so showing them and teaching them is where I've kind of learned. That's where my role is as a leader, really helping them really understand the implications of behaviors. And so I've evolved to from a leader that's I'm still. I still tell my team hey, I don't micromanage. If I have to, if I know it before you do, that's probably a problem, and so so they understand that, and so I think I'm still evolving my leadership style to adapt to a smaller company with a different team that thinks differently from the type A consultants with the MBAs that I'm used to working with, to the ones who you know maybe they don't have the MBA or maybe they're going to get it, or maybe they have a desire to get there, and so it really has required. It's a growth opportunity for me that I'm still learning to grow in, to be able to shift my mental mindset away from I got a team of driven people to I got a team that needs to be inspired, you know. Chris: Yeah, that's great. So what have you done to try to help you in the hiring process? Make sure you're making the best decision you can make about who you're bringing on your team? Renee: You know it's the hire slow, fire quick. Chris: Yes, another easier said than done. Renee: Easier said than done and that's where I am right now. Even in this open marketing director job that I'm looking for, it's really making sure I've gone through I go through so many, I go through all the resumes. My assistant will filter out the trash. But once she's filtered out the trash, I'm looking at those resumes going okay, is this someone who's going to? Because I'll openly say the reason I'm looking for a marketing director. I'll tell you this story. So I hire this person and she's from Adidas. She comes from Adidas background in marketing and she's Under Armour in marketing and she was in Latin America director of Latin America markets and she's just moved from Houston. So I'm thinking I've got a Latina because it's part of my demographic. That's awesome. She's got this global brand experience that's awesome. All in athleisure but transferable skills. It's marketing. She quits three months later, found another job in athleisure. So I interviewed, interviewed and found this one and this woman, you know, sold me on. I mean we had multiple conversations. I was like you know, sold me on. I mean, we had multiple conversations. I was like you know, hey. Chris: I'm really concerned about whether or not you know you can migrate from big company to this small company Cause it is a very valid concern. Renee: It's a big change. Right, you don't have a team. Your team is a team of three, not a team of 20. Right, and so your role really changes. And so she. You know, she convinced me that, but the lesson learned was that you know my spidey senses. I didn't listen to them. Like my spidey senses said, she may not stay. Like there were little things that happened along the way you get enamored with all the other stuff. Right, but I was so hungry to have a big company, someone to come in to show my team other than me, for them to hear it from someone other than me that this is what marketing looks like, Right, this is the marketing discipline that we need to have. And so she came in. She brought some marketing discipline. She heard that, you know she brought some value in the three months, but it was. It's been really a painful learning process, right, because now I'm short of marketing director, I'm stepping in, yeah, yeah. Chris: Well, what you alluded to there, right, is just the cost hard cost and soft cost when you make a bad hiring decision yeah Because you know you're having to fill the role or someone else. Renee: Yep, so that distracts, you, it's me right now. Chris: It distracts you from doing your full-time else. Yep, so that distracts you. It's me right now. It distracts you from doing your full-time job. Yep, you're now spending time going through resumes and going to be interviewing and you wasted, if you will, all the time on the one that only lasted three months. Yeah, so there's a lot of cost there. There's a lot of cost there. Renee: And then you're sitting there and knowing I've got to restart this whole process, I've got to try to maintain the momentum within my team this is the second marketing person they've had in the past year so and so how do you start to just kind of manage through that and so, instead of and when you get burned, that one time, as I'm looking at resumes, I'm looking at people with deep experience in a particular industry and I'm going oh nope. Chris: Learn, that is, that there's that bias creep right you're. You have to not let yourself penalize these people you've never met, just as they might look the same on paper yeah, as the one bad actor in the group. Renee: Yeah, and so you and you're right, and so I'm going well, and I'm having these conversations and then yeah, so it's just. Yeah, I think that's like one hiring, firing, hiring slow, firing quick. Chris: Sometimes, even when you hire slow, you still get I tell people it's part science, it's part art and it's the more process I think you can put in place and follow the better. But you're never going to be 100 right and I think figuring out the characteristics that work in your organization is something that you can incorporate into your hiring process and know that this is the kind of background traits, characteristics that thrive here. Renee: Yeah, and even and I would also say, listening to that, you know, those spidey senses that are coming with those thoughts creep in like, and they were coming like there were things, there were triggers that happened through the hiring process. Then I was like I'm not sure she's going to be a good fit. Like you know, for example, she called and said hey, can I work from home? I was like no, you cannot work from home. So that was like that was. Oh, renee, we're gonna do a whole episode on work from home. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And so those were the triggers of like, okay, she might not be the good fit. And when those were the when that happens to you, you got to listen to it and like and be okay with backing out. But I didn't listen to the trigger because we were so far down in the negotiation and I should have just said, you know, I don't think this is going to work out Right, and rescinded the offer. But I had already extended the offer, right, and I didn't want to have egg on my face. Chris:Sure. Renee: So I mean I, what I should have done is just let my ego go, rescinded the offer and continue to look. Chris: Yeah, or at least be upfront about this is starting to give me concerns. Here's why. Renee: Yeah. But I you know you know it's which I did that I did that okay, she covered it up she covered that up. She told me exactly what I wanted to hear, but still the those doubts were in my head and I should have listened to my gut. And that gut is a powerful thing. You know that, maxwell Galt, maxwell Galt Gladwell, it's a powerful thing. And if, when you listen to it, you're usually right, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Chris: Renee, this has been a fascinating conversation. Just to wrap it up, I have a few just personal things. I always like to ask yeah, what was your first job as a kid? Renee: Newspaper. I was a newspaper girl. You had a newspaper route? Yes, Absolutely I did. I'll be darned. My sister got up in the morning and helped me through my newspapers. Chris: You're not the first guest. That was their first job it was fairly common. Renee: You had to make me dig deep for that one. Chris: Okay, you made me dig deeper on this one. Sometimes people say this is the hardest question. Yeah, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Renee: Barbecue no sauce Seasoned, very well seasoned, no hesitation. Chris: No, no hesitation and the woman knows what she wants. Yes, right. Renee: Don't bring me brisket with sauce on it. No. Chris: No sauce Extra seasoned. Renee: I want seasoned brisket, the moist kind. Okay, and, by the way, I'm not a Texan, but I moved to Texas and now I've been here 15 years and now it's like brisket barbecue. It's the only thing that I eat. Chris: I eat it's the only thing I want to eat. I might die of a heart attack, but it's the only thing I want to eat. I love it All right. So because you have four kids and I know your life's running crazy, this will be more of a fantasy. Renee: Yeah, if you could take. Chris: If you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go? What would you do? Renee: Oh, I would be somewhere, probably in South Africa, in the, probably on a safari. I would tour safaris. I would go South Africa, kenya. I want to see the migration of animals. I would do that. Chris: I love it. Renee: That's where I would be. Chris: Renee, thank you so much for being on. This has been just a pleasure getting to know you and hear your story. Renee: Thank you. This is awesome. I listened to NPR how I built this. So this is like my. I feel like I'm excited. I've kind of done the NPR check. I like the how I built this check. Do you listen to that? Chris: I do, I do, I love it. I love that analogy. Renee: Yeah, it's great. Chris: Thanks again. Renee: Thanks for doing this. Special Guest: Renee Morris.

Patrick delves into the humorous and insightful experience of a non-Catholic attending a Catholic Mass for the first time. From the priest's impressive singing and multitasking to the synchronized congregation and the perceived marathon length of the service—it's both amusing and enlightening. Remember, understanding different perspectives can enrich our own.   Hilarious Audio: A man shares his experience going to a Catholic Church for the first time (00:25) Steve – Comment about conspiracy theories and how we might be able to address the extremism that is dividing our nation (11:09) Alan – Thank you Patrick for your wide variety of wonderful words. I sometimes have to check the meaning in the dictionary. (18:12) Angelo - The shooting was on the 13th, and seems related to Fatima, and he survived just as JPII did. (20:48) Clare - If you wouldn't vote for Trump, is it better not to vote at all? (23:54) Chris - How can somebody be happy with an assassination attempt? Maybe they have an issue with their own dad? (43:06) Charles - I heard JD Vance is supporting Mifepristone. (49:31)

Listeners welcome back to the pod - today we will dive deep into the life of one of the most influential figures in the cruise line and maritime world. Our guest is a titan of the cruise line industry, a visionary entrepreneur, and a lifelong champion of global tourism his name is Manfredi Lefebvre d'Ovidio.  Manfredi has transformed his family business into a global leader in luxury cruising. Under his leadership, Silversea Cruises expanded its company offering travel experiences across all seven continents around the world. In a strategic partnership with Royal Caribbean Manfredi orchestrated the sale of a ⅔ stake in Silversea for a whopping $1 billion in 2018. This strategic partnership not only elevated Silversea's brand but also marked one of the most significant deals in the cruise industry's history. And lastly, Manfredi is the Chairman of The Heritage Group which is a private equity company that acquired 85% of one of the biggest luxury travel companies in the world Abercrombie & Kent - whose founder Geoffrey Kent was on the podcast just last month.  Today we are going to dive into the life and mind of Manfredi Lefebvre d'Ovidio.    00:12: Who is Manfredi Lefebvre d'Ovidio? 03:42: Manfredi's Recommended Books      05:56: Manfredi's Starts a Cruise Line 13:01: How this Billion-Dollar Founder Spends his Time 15:05: The Biggest Challenge Manfredi Experienced was September 11, 2001.  18:56: Manfredi Takes Over the Family Business 21:18: Manfredi Pioneers the Luxury Cruise Industry.  24:39: Why Manfredi Loves Being an Entrepreneur 26:13: Manfredi's Career Chapters 29:59: Manfredi Orchestrated the Most Significant Deal in the Cruise Industry.  32:47: Manfredi & Geoffrey Kent Built the First Expedition Cruise Ship 34:59: Manfredi's Daily Routine 37:13: Advice Manfredi Would Give His Younger Self 37:58: Things to Look for in Executives and Partners When You Bring Them On  40:25: What is Manfredi Most Proud Of?   Contact Info: https://www.manfredilefebvre.com/ https://heritagemonaco.com/ https://www.silversea.com/ Transcript:   [00:00:12] Chris: Listeners, welcome back to the podcast today, and we will dive deep into the life of one of the most influential figures in the cruise line and maritime world. Our guest today is a Titan in the cruise line industry, a visionary entrepreneur, a lifelong champion of global tourism, and his name is Manfredi LaFavre D'Ovidio. Manfredi has transformed his family business into a global leader in luxury cruising. Under his leadership, Silver Sea Cruises expanded its company, offering travel experiences across all seven continents around the world. In a strategic partnership with Royal Caribbean, Manfredi orchestrated the sale of a two third stake in Silversea for a whopping 1 billion in 2018. This strategic partnership not only elevated Silversea's brand, but also marked. One of the most significant deals in the cruise industry's history. And lastly, Manfredi is the chairman of the heritage group, which is a private equity company that acquired 85 percent of one of the biggest luxury travel companies in the world, Abercrombie and Kent, whose founder was actually on the podcast last month. So if you haven't listened to that interview yet, make sure you check it out. And today we're going to dive into the life and mind of Manfredi. Listeners, welcome to the show. Manfredi, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? [00:01:34] Manfredi: Not too bad. Not too bad. Can I add something to what you said? [00:01:38] Chris: Please do. Add or take away. Whatever you like. [00:01:41] Manfredi: Well, what happened is that as soon as I did my deal with Royal Caribbean, I did buy, uh, Abercrombie Kent, which recently I brought up to 100 percent shareholding, and I sold to Royal Caribbean subsequently one further that I owned, uh, in, uh, Silver Sea in exchange of Royal Caribbean shares and acquired another cruise line, which is called Crystal Cruises. [00:02:04] Chris: Ah, I did actually read about that. Forgive me for not putting that in there. [00:02:08] Manfredi: No, so it's just, the story goes on. And before Silver Sea, we had another cruise line, which was called Sydmar. Okay. [00:02:17] Chris: Was Sid, was Smar the one created by your father or was Silver Sea created by your father? Uh, [00:02:23] Manfredi: Sid Smar was acquired by my father with me because I was working with him at the time. And we bought, uh, the Cruise Line, which was one of the first cruise lines ever. And, uh, Sid Bar built the first free purposely built cruise ships, which were built in Italian shipyard fi can and LA in France. [00:02:42] Chris: Great. So that [00:02:42] Manfredi: was the beginning. Then we got an offer we couldn't refuse. We sold Smar. And we started Silversea together with my father, which I took over shortly after. [00:02:52] Chris: And that was in the 90s, correct? [00:02:54] Manfredi: That was, uh, we started in 92, we acquired in 86, Sidmar, sold it in 89, started in 92, uh, 91, Silversea, and, uh, we're ordering the ships, and then we started operating in 94. [00:03:10] Chris: Incredible. [00:03:12] Manfredi: So, and then in 2018, uh, we, I sold to Royal Caribbean and I bought in 2000, uh, actually was in 2019. The negotiation started earlier 2019. I bought Abercrombie & Kent. [00:03:27] Chris: That's right. Incredible. Um, so Manfredi, I was told by a mentor of mine a long time ago that the, uh, difference between a wealthy person and the average person is the information that we put in between the two ears that we have. and what we choose to do with it. And I hear you're an avid reader, so if it's okay with you, I'd like to ask about what you're reading right now and some of the more impactful, uh, books of your life. [00:03:59] Manfredi: Yeah, I tend to read two, three books in parallel. So now I'm reading the Silk Roads, number one, the old Silk Road and the new Silk Road. Then there is a new book which was written about the oil industry and the energy markets, which is very interesting. I don't remember now the exact title. And then, you know, other things which went back in time. An interesting View of the history of the United States of America, which is unconventional view. Ah, [00:04:34] Chris: do [00:04:34] Manfredi: you [00:04:34] Chris: know who, do you know who the author of that book was? [00:04:38] Manfredi: I can let you know. [00:04:39] Chris: Okay. [00:04:40] Manfredi: Um, it was recommended to me and I bought it and it's quite interesting. [00:04:44] Chris: Do you have two or three books that were the most impactful in your life? [00:04:50] Manfredi: Yeah, you know, but probably I'm, I, I had once, um, hepatitis, so I was stuck in bed for a long time and I managed to read all of War and Peace, the whole story. It's a massive book. In today's world, it's very difficult to read at all. [00:05:10] Chris: Yeah. Okay. Anything else, any others? [00:05:17] Manfredi: Oh, this is the one that comes to my mind immediately. The other ones are, you know, I try to always read something which will leave me something, uh, in knowledge. [00:05:27] Chris: Yeah. [00:05:28] Manfredi: A book that I loved was, uh, A Hundred Years of Solitude. [00:05:33] Chris: I've heard of that one. [00:05:35] Manfredi: There's a life in this village in Colombia, which goes through the civil wars in the country. It's quite interesting. [00:05:42] Chris: Nice. Um, so I kind of want to start this off about, uh, going back to your, your past and your childhood. And I'm curious about the first moment that you realized you had a passion for ships and cruise lines. Uh, do you remember that moment? [00:06:03] Manfredi: I can, uh, reconnected because when I was 14, my father told us, uh, he was We're going on a cruise. Now it's 14, it's uh, what is it, 56 years ago. It was really at the beginning. Nobody knew about cruises. And, uh, he, because his friend had his cruise line, which was called Sidmar, and so we went to all the way to Mexico, Los Angeles, took the cruise down the Mexico coast, and, uh, that was the first impact with, uh, uh, cruising. But I've been involved in shipping all my life, because my father was a ship owner, a professor of university of maritime law, and a lawyer, and he was always involved with shipping. So it's been all our lives that we've been involved with ships, we had yachts, and so on. We had shipping companies, we had ferry companies, we had all sorts of things. But that was a crucial moment because we sold this company, where I subsequently went to work. When I was 18. And then, uh, you know, we, we bought it. So it was a chapter here. You know, you go on a cruise and you work for them and then you buy them. Yeah. And then you see them. I hear your father was quite a, an interesting figure and he was a lawyer and he actually helped create the maritime law in Italy. [00:07:24] Chris: , and then You, you, did he start the cruise line, , the very first cruise line venture that you guys owned, or did he acquire it and then continue to run it and it became the family business? [00:07:39] Manfredi: He, we acquired it. [00:07:41] Chris: Okay. [00:07:42] Manfredi: And then, and when we acquired it, we built the new ships. And then they were so beautiful and were so, so innovative that we got a very good offer and we sold it. And then we started SilverSea. SilverSea is the first one that we started. In the past, you know, I had worked in other businesses. My father, with his, uh, partners had bought a big shipping company, which was listed on the UK Stock Exchange, which owned ships. It owned a very large, uh, Ship broker company and, uh, insurance broker company called Clarkson. It owned Maritime Insurance company. So he was always, uh, involved in that. He even had a fleet of tankers in Saudi Arabia at the beginning of the seventies. [00:08:26] Chris: Oh really? can you share about your father's influence on you? You know, as a young man, I could imagine, and a boy growing up, I could imagine, uh, a father who, I think about the influence my father had on me. Right. And I can imagine you and your father had a cruise lines. He is part of the maritime industry, um, or he was at least getting involved in cruise lines at the time. , How did that have an effect on you as a young man? [00:08:55] Manfredi: I mean, that's, uh, fundamental. He was an extraordinary person, an extraordinary father. And, uh, he was lucky he had a wife who always, uh, put him on a, uh, how do you say it when you put somebody on a pedestal? Pedestal for us. So we always had, and because he was working all the time, he was traveling a lot, working, and he would, his Sundays were because he would take Saturday to work always. On the Sundays, his vacation, his day was to pass the day working in our playroom. So he had a desk. His children were playing around and he was there working. And that was his, uh, his Sunday. So, uh, you know, it's an example of, uh, dedication to passion, to work dedication. And, uh, but he was still very present to us because he was a symbol. for us. So, uh, we always looked up to him. And then he would sometimes take one of the children. For example, he, when he had some, uh, launch of a new ship, would take one children with him. And so he created some moments for us, which he was pretty much always linked his life with his business, but he involved us. So he got us very much attached. And especially my two sisters, they were deeply in love with him and the same with me. I mean, I adored him. And, uh, when I was, um, uh, 18, he said, Okay, you go to university, you will have a desk in the office next to mine. You can listen to all my phone calls, join all my meetings, read all my papers. Asked me every question, and any day in the week, Saturday, Sunday, during the week, and so that I did, and then he would send me to his businesses. He had many businesses in various countries, Mexico, England, etc, etc. So I would go three months in his businesses. And then come back and study and go on with the university and then work with him. And, uh, so it was a very tight relationship. [00:11:10] Chris: What do you think was the most impactful lesson that you learned from your father? [00:11:16] Manfredi: You know, the most is to be very respectful of the others. He was, uh, the most, uh, Curtis person you can imagine with everybody, and it wasn't linked to the fact if you had anything to exchange with somebody, uh, somebody who was relevant for his business or for any other reason. He would be the same with anybody from the lowest level and, uh, business community or the people working for him in service to the highest level. It was true that everybody with extreme kindness and courtesy. And, uh, and would always be, uh, responding to anybody. So, it was this kind of attitude. Very humble, simple, very successful man. Uh, an incredible brain, but very humble and simple. [00:12:06] Chris: So let's switch to the roles that you play in your life now. So you're the chairman of the heritage group, which, uh, a heritage groups, a private equity group in a travel and tourism sector. Um, you're the chairman and orbital solutions, Monaco co chairman. And I guess you said, uh, are you no longer chairman at Amber Cromby Kent, or are you still co chair there? [00:12:27] Manfredi: No, I'm, uh, I'm the chairman. Geoffrey. sold me the steak, and he is the co chairman. I don't know what his exact title is. He's the founder chairman, let's say. Okay. He's not actively involved in the running of the business. He's very involved in everything, which is the product. [00:12:49] Chris: . And then you're a member of the board of Bucksense Incorporated, vice chairman of Monaco Chamber of Shipping, um, member of the executive community of World Tourism and Travel Council, and member of the board of SKULD Skold. Is that what that's pronounced? Skold? Skold. The maritime school in maritime insurance company based in Oslo. So I'm, I'm curious with all those, those titles and accolades, where do you spend the most of your time? [00:13:18] Manfredi: Well, first of all, they evolved, you know, some are gone and there's some new ones. [00:13:22] Chris: Okay. [00:13:23] Manfredi: And I spend most of the time, reality, I divide myself between three things. One is where I have the most relevant business opportunity where I focus a lot. [00:13:35] Chris: Okay. [00:13:35] Manfredi: Was like, I try to make sure that that things they are done well and they get my support. I, I cultivate very, uh, mature and capable management and then, and want them to, to, to drive, but I'm there to help them and to know everything which is going on. In any case, that's the first thing, which is very important. The second thing is whenever there's something which is not going that well, it happens to follow my laps. Because this is what happens with owners, you know. So there I dedicate with the team and to solve whatever there are some problems and something which is not going as I would wish to solve it. And the third thing is the things which give me satisfaction. So there are a number of things which give me satisfaction and I dedicate myself to. So now I've been recently appointed by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. as ambassador to UNESCO and for charity and philanthropy, which is something which is not going to earn me a cent. It's going to cost me, but it gives me satisfaction. I use my capabilities, my relationships, my, uh, dedication to, um, better cause. So it's a mixed, I have the freedom of choice. [00:14:51] Chris: That's good. I was going to ask, , you mentioned about, you know, if there's ever a problem in the business, it comes to you, it comes to your desk. [00:15:00] Manfredi: I didn't mention the new businesses. Of course, I mean, new investment. I follow also. [00:15:04] Chris: Yeah. Did you share with us maybe one of the biggest challenges that you've had in your career when it came across your table, , and how you decided to handle it? [00:15:17] Manfredi: Oh, there's a very clear example. September 11th. I was in a bank negotiating the refinancing of the financing. It's a new ships. And in the bank, they tell me, they come, somebody rushing in, come, come and watch on the television. So there, we were on television, in the bank, because CTF financing for the company. And we saw what happened. So you can imagine from that moment on, what can happen to the travel business. [00:15:51] Chris: Yeah. [00:15:52] Manfredi: The world shrinks. Every place which has a Muslim religion or Arab language, Is disappears from the world. You cannot go there. It's a small world and uh, uh, people don't wanna travel. If they want on a plane, they will look if there's anybody who looks suspicious. And, uh, actually for some time, planes were suspended. So that was a very tough time and you have to hold the company together. And, uh, going through, uh, you know, all sorts of difficulties. You dedicate your time there and, uh, and succeeded. And then, the cruise industry recovers very fast, so it bounced back. But for some time, it was tough. [00:16:39] Chris: How long was that time period? [00:16:42] Manfredi: There is, I think that you can, the turning point was when President No. 43 went on the aircraft carrier. [00:16:51] Chris: Okay. [00:16:52] Manfredi: It was like a liberating moment. [00:16:54] Chris: Ah, okay. [00:16:55] Manfredi: Confidence came back. It was like a fantastic case of how to rebuild confidence in the consumers. [00:17:06] Chris: And, , what are, what are some of the ways that you held the company together, at least the, the morale of the company together during that time? [00:17:20] Manfredi: You know, they, they, they have to see that you're on top of everything and you can find the solutions. And I think that my people were quite confident. I had additional resources of my own, which I could put in to support the company. But I was trying to have the company support itself as much as it could by itself. But I had good relationships, and I got some incredible, uh, support by people. Um, really incredible support by people based on their trust and confidence. [00:17:54] Chris: What do you think was harder on the cruise line industry, uh, 9 11 or COVID? [00:18:00] Manfredi: 9 11. [00:18:01] Chris: Yeah? How come? [00:18:04] Manfredi: Well, 9 11 was, uh, wasn't only a travel space. And during COVID, most of the businesses were still going well, if you think about it. Some businesses actually had an incredible success. During the electrical container business. Well, during 9 11, it was simply the world was paralyzed. And the governments did not find a way to intervene to support the businesses. It was very, very tough. [00:18:34] Chris: , I guess that makes sense. , so okay, let's shift gears a little bit and, and we talked about your father and his impact on your life. , can you tell us a bit about when you took the company over, , what was that moment like for you and what were some of the decisions leading up to that that made you guys decide it was time? [00:18:56] Manfredi: Well, the decision was because we made a family partition. So I got, uh, in the division of the family assets, I got that business, like several things. And how it felt, well, you know, I had already been working with it. So it wasn't something new. And we always been very close. So I was participating to everything. It became my baby, only mine. And, uh, of course it, it was, uh, it, I must say that, uh, that choice or that moment, the fact of taking over, so it changed my life. Because from being the son of a wealthy man with many businesses, taking care of them together with him, suddenly I had something that was mine and I had to grow. And so I identified myself a lot with that company, with that product, with that success. And it became, after all, today became my legacy. [00:19:53] Chris: I am [00:19:54] Manfredi: especially that I'm not the only the son of a wealthy man from a family which has because we are a family which with 200 years of industrial history. [00:20:05] Chris: Oh, really? [00:20:06] Manfredi: Yes. [00:20:07] Chris: I didn't know that. [00:20:08] Manfredi: It started in, uh, in Italy and, uh, at the beginning of the 19th century with paper industry, banking, a number of things. So I'm not only that, I'm, uh, and I'm not only the son of a very successful man. I had my thing and I did it successfully and I've become an expert in the field. , so which allowed me. When there was another opportunity to buy to, which was during the, at the end of COVID, the beginning of the Ukraine war, to buy crystal cruises, to do it with great confidence, because I, I knew all the levers of the business, I knew the people to choose to bring on board, I knew where to go to get support for the generating the revenue, etc, etc, to restructure the ships. So, I could do it very well because I had full confidence of my knowledge of that industry, and the people had confidence on my knowledge of the industry, so they give me a lot of credit. [00:21:06] Chris: A friend of ours, Mr. Geoffrey Kent, , told me to, that you pioneered the industry, , the luxury area in both normal and expedition. So I'd love to learn more about how you did that and your strategies behind it. [00:21:18] Manfredi: How we did that was, we had, Sittmer was a typical cruise line. At the beginning of the cruise lines, they were transatlantic operators. And when the transatlantic routes, uh, became dry, no more passengers because people were flying, and from Europe there was no more migration to the U.S or to Australia or to South America, those ships needed to have a new employment, and they were converted into cruise ships. So that was the, uh, the beginning of that industry. So when we bought it, we bought it in an industry which was at its beginnings. And we built these two ships, three ships, which were the first ones to be built purposely. So that was, uh, uh, the, the, really the moment in which, uh, we dedicated to that great, , vision, because it was my father's vision that that could have been a great industry and had a great future. And then so on. And then we bought into, uh, then we developed Silver Sea. And I remember when we asked my father, Daddy, what, what is it you? really wish for. And he was 92, I think. And he said, Oh, I wish that Silver Sea will have 12 ships. And I think that we had six, maybe. It was impossible for him to see 12 ships. [00:22:34] Chris: Yeah. [00:22:34] Manfredi: But it was part of the, of really the, the passion that he had and that he gave me, this passion of, uh, and, uh, looking forward always. Not making a calculation of what you're going to make out of it and how it's related to your life, but the project, the vision, what you're building was quite, uh, driving. [00:22:59] Chris: And how many ships do you guys have now? [00:23:02] Manfredi: No, now we just started again. So we have two ships. Now we have to grow it. We start a new chapter. You see what you do when you turn 70. Some people retire. [00:23:11] Chris: Yeah. [00:23:12] Manfredi: Not in my family. [00:23:13] Chris: You start another business. [00:23:15] Manfredi: You start another business. In our case, we started more businesses because we started . We bought Abercrombie & Kent, which we're growing very fast and very much. [00:23:25] Chris: Yeah. [00:23:25] Manfredi: And then we bought again, the cruise line that we have other businesses also, which we run. So it's, uh, it's simply the fact that, uh, what is it that you, that you gives you enjoyment? And, uh, is it to play golf or is it to have, uh, in the morning, wake up and think of the things that you're doing, the projects that you have, how you can accomplish things. And, uh, so in our case, that is because of my father, who started when he was a, who started when he was very young and at 92, he was, he lived until 98. So he was still, uh, when he was at 98, he would do, still the first thing he would ask me is how are the ships going? And so it's part of that. My, the first Lefebvre, the guy in the, uh, at the beginning of the 19th century. He died when he was 84, which for those times, that's a very old age. Because he got pneumonia coming back from the board of his shipping company. So it's in the DNA of the family to work, uh, until you, you go. And it's not a question you already have the money to live well. It's a question of money as an instrument of freedom and to, realize yourself, to to achieve the satisfactions that you're looking for. In my case, I give myself a lot of other satisfactions. But the number one. is to be an entrepreneur! [00:24:54] Chris: That's most important to you to, to be known for as an entrepreneur. [00:24:59] Manfredi: Not to be known to know myself, that I am, I wake up in the morning and I'm busy. I have a lot of things which, uh, interest me. [00:25:09] Chris: Yeah I have a lot of things which I do, which interests other people. If I wasn't an entrepreneur, I wouldn't be here with you. It's very true. So [00:25:16] Manfredi: it's a very strong connection with the living world instead of going into the. Sleeping world. [00:25:24] Chris: I'm curious if you weren't in the shipping business or anything related maritime, , what business do you think you would be in [00:25:33] Manfredi: investment banking? [00:25:35] Chris: Yeah. How come [00:25:37] Manfredi: I always liked it a lot, but investment banking, private equity. investing in businesses, selling businesses, advising people, uh, working on. I, I worked when my father sent me around. Uh, he sent me also to some investment banks for some time to learn, to learn how that work, that will work. I don't know [00:26:02] Chris: if you know, but, , on our podcast, we're interviewing founders, a hundred founders of a billion dollar companies. And I always ask each guest the same question. , and it is, if you're going to break your career into chapters, what chapters would they be? And what would you name them? [00:26:23] Manfredi: A chapter is number one is, uh, the chapter in which I was a golden boy. Which means I was, uh, living, uh, a very, uh, prosperous youth with a daddy who adored me and wouldn't deny me almost anything. [00:26:40] Chris: Okay. [00:26:40] Manfredi: So understanding this, I, uh, I kept and I developed a strong, uh, uh, desire of accomplishing by myself. [00:26:48] Chris: Okay. [00:26:49] Manfredi: That was the first part. Then the second part was, uh, being like, uh, uh, a stamp on my father's back. Okay. Following him everywhere and, uh, listening to him, et cetera, and working together with him. What [00:27:02] Chris: Were the ages for chapter two? [00:27:05] Manfredi: Yeah, you can say, you know, from when I started working with him when I was 19. So let's say 20. Okay. And 20 a decade. Then I started to have diversified investments. Then, uh, that's another age. And then there was the age, which I took over the, the Silver Sea. [00:27:29] Chris: How old were you then? Became [00:27:30] Manfredi: my baby. [00:27:31] Chris: How old were you then when you took over? Silver Sea? [00:27:35] Manfredi: We're talking about a year, 2000. So I was, uh, 47. Nice. [00:27:40] Chris: And any more chapters after Silver Sea? [00:27:44] Manfredi: Yes. It's a new chapter, which is the continuation in a way of Silver Sea, which is, uh, which is happening now. But now my chapter is entrepreneur, but my enterprise is The family wealth. I see myself as somebody who is, uh, administrating the family wealth, not only to increase it, or first of all, keep it as it is and possibly increase it, but also to make it such that it is well transmitted to new generations. So my following, and so this requires a number of choices, which are different in your, in your relationship with the business of themselves, because I was permanently on top of the business. Now I want to, uh, support the manager to grow so that they can deal independently for me, benefit from my presence, but eventually one day they can, the company can go by itself. Yeah. So I joined the company that way, and that's all I'm trying to do it. So I'm trying to diversify risk, enhance liquidity very much so that the liquidity is always there for the family. So it's a different vision. When you're an entrepreneur, you're 47 and you take risks, you want to expand, you have to grow, you have to make, you have to make a jump in the size of your business. You have to go from four ships to actually work two ships to 12, 14, 16 ships. Yeah. So the company is a hundred percent yours. You don't have a public markets, you have to compete with credit, you have to do this and that. So it's a, you know, I had to finance my ships, I had to fly to China because that was the best market. So you'll find always the solutions to get the things to function. But that's when you're the full entrepreneur, then now it's a, it's a much more stable approach. Yeah. [00:29:45] Chris: Makes sense. , your partnership with Royal Caribbean, it was marked as one of the more significant deals in the cruises history, uh, the cruise industry's history. can you tell us a little bit about the unfolding of that partnership? [00:30:01] Manfredi: Well, it was easy. I mean, it was, uh, it wasn't easy. I mean, it was a simple process. I was, I wanted to build more ships, so I decided to open the equity of my company to investors. I informed my competitors that I was doing it, so not to have gossips all the time around. And then, uh, someone from Royal Caribbean, uh, came and said, could we be your investor? They said, I thought about it and I said, why not? And then at a certain point in the process, it evolved from then buying the majority. And so that's, I did. And I had a, a, so a, a stake in the role in the company. But then Covid came and Covid made clear everything first, all that the company had to be absorbed into Royal Caribbean. Mm-Hmm. because of the financial situation. 'cause it was, uh, was not easy for cruise lines and uh, um, and because, uh. And when you are the full disponent of a business, then you can't learn and being somebody who just participates. Yeah. And so it was a good way. We find a great deal, great deal for them, great deal for me. And uh, I got a big chunk of Royal Caribbean shares, which I'm happy to have. And so that's how it evolved. And I could start, I could buy a Abercrombie & Kent and start my own business. [00:31:28] Chris: , was that a pivotable moment in your life? [00:31:30] Manfredi: Sure. I mean, you know, you, you decide that you don't want to be, uh, what was I saying? Sixty six year old retired person with all the banks calling you to invest your money and private equity funds and all of these people asking you to underwrite their funds. But having a very easy life. Uh, very comfortable and deciding now to challenge yourself and to do something new, which excites you every moment, which is exactly the opposite direction, no? You have a capital event. Capital events don't happen many times in the life of an individual. [00:32:10] Chris: Yep. [00:32:11] Manfredi: So it happens. At that point, you have to make a decision. Are you going to go into a new world, which is the world of the person who is either entirely or half retired? Yep. Or you'll find a way to go back into the world of being active in the colony. That's what I decided. I [00:32:33] Chris: think it was a good choice. , Geoffrey also told me, , to ask you about how you became his partner on the MS Explorer, um, which was the first expedition ship that was ever built. [00:32:47] Manfredi: Well, yeah, I mean, it was fantastic. Um, so Geoffrey had this company that he had developed, you know, Geoffrey, as you and your followers know, is a fantastic and unique person. And he wanted to go and send a ship to the Antarctic to propose, to offer to his guests, his clients, the opportunity to go and see the Antarctic. But he wasn't a ship owner. So, we were launch, starting to launch SilverSea at the time. And, uh, we were approached by his consultants, who were going to do the management of this ship, which is a company called V Ships, which is one of the major service companies in the shipping world. And they introduced us, so we made a partnership there, which lasted for two, three years. And then he kept it on his own, but by then we were good friends. And we became even more friends because, uh, then, uh, I, I was next to him and, uh, he was the chairman of WTDC, and I was like his right hand there. And then we developed all the segments for Abercrombie Kent doing services to the cruise industry. He started with us. So Abercrombie & Kent does a lot of the best quality, um, uh, pre post or excursions for cruise industries, part of its business. So that we did together and we became great friends and we always try to do something together. But he did some deals with other people in the meantime on the equity. And then one day, he told me, why don't you buy Abercrombie & Kent? And so that's what we did. And we still work together and, uh, we're, we're going tomorrow. We're flying on, uh, to one of the crystal ships. [00:34:39] Chris: Yeah. [00:34:41] Manfredi: We say two days on it and then we fly back. , so we were always, uh, we do a lot of things together. I mean, [00:34:48] Chris: nice. I'm curious on, you know, and I'm sure this is a hard question to answer, but, , I would imagine for most entrepreneurs, their day to day is very different. , I would imagine yours is similar. , do you have any regular structure you like to keep in your days, even though. You have a thousand things that are thrown at you every single day and you have to change up as much as possible. Some people, for example, you know, have the same waking time every day or the same sleep time or, , the same diet or, , All different types of things. Are there, are there any consistencies or daily rituals that you have in your life? [00:35:25] Manfredi: The daily ritual is a weekly ritual, which is doing the Luggage, so I'm always traveling. Yeah. What is a recurrent? I come back from a trip. I start packing That's the most Methodic thing I do all the time. [00:35:45] Chris: Pack. Pack and unpack. [00:35:47] Manfredi: Pack and unpack, pack and unpack. And then schedule from assistant, assistant, I have to do this, this, this, this, this. Work on the planning, work on how I'm gonna do this. I can fit, fit the meetings. That's the most thing. Um, I try to, if I can, to swim during the day, but uh, as I travel all the time, it's very difficult. [00:36:10] Chris: , what about, I'm curious about, you know, entrepreneurs, a lot of it depends on the entrepreneur. Some people sleep very little, , some people sleep, , a lot and then work hard throughout the day. How about yourself? Are you a heavy sleeper? Are you a light sleeper? Are you getting six, seven hours a night every night on the same time or is it fluctuate? [00:36:30] Manfredi: No, I'm basically going, trying to take six, seven hours every night, trying not to go to sleep too late. This morning I woke up at 6. 30. Yesterday I went to bed at 11. 30. It was seven hours. It was a very tiring day, so I was tired. Uh, but it can be six, it can be seven. Rarely goes above seven, unfortunately. I would like to have more sleep if I could. And, um, but it's normally very regular hours. [00:37:01] Chris: , any advice that you would give yourself, , your younger self that you didn't know when you were younger, say at the age of 20 or 30, that you know now that you wish you knew. [00:37:13] Manfredi: You know, and anything which is not real estate. Already built in the state business number one thing to look at is the people you're going to be working with as partners as executives, because that makes or breaks or fixes anything. So whenever you choose to deal with the wrong partners or whenever you, uh, appoint or go into a business without having the right person. You're going to have some problems. [00:37:45] Chris: Yeah. What are some things that you look for in a partnership or an executive when you, when you bring them on? [00:37:52] Manfredi: They have to be, first of all, they have to be trustworthy. They have to be honest, trustworthy. They have to be hardworking people. And if they're hardworking people competent, they can make a lot of money. [00:38:05] Chris: I'm not stingy. So you pay them well, [00:38:07] Manfredi: yes, they may. They, they have good incentives. [00:38:11] Chris: Have you ever noticed any, any, any ways that you identify individuals like that? You, you mentioned trustworthy, hardworking, is it through reputation that you hear from other people? Oh, this individual's trustworthy. Uh, he or she has built, you know, this business, or is it personal experience? Do you want to meet with them, get to know them really well, sit down with them, how they interact with you? [00:38:35] Manfredi: Well, you know, now the last, uh, oh, it's, what is it? 25 years more, 30 years. As I've been in the same business, it's much easier because I, I know the people that I'm going to retain, or I'm gonna promote, I'm going to delegate to. So it's, it's quite easy because 30 years since, uh, we started, uh, SilverSea Cruises now it's, uh, the same market. So the CEO of Abercrombie and Kent Travel Group, which includes Abercrombie and Kent. And Crystal Cruz is a person who has been working with me for 14 years. [00:39:13] Chris: Yeah. [00:39:14] Manfredi: She joined Silversea, and then when she was extremely young, now she's still very young, but she's in her beginning of her 40s, and she's the CEO of the group. I know her inside out, she knows me inside out. So just full trust, a hardworking person, work ethics are extremely strong. That's fundamental because mine are extremely strong. So I can't deal when people tell me balance of life. Balance of life is, is not compatible to be running a competitive business. [00:39:50] Chris: How many hours a day do you say you work from from the time you wake up to the time you go to sleep? [00:39:55] Manfredi: Yes, basically I work that seven, what is it called, seven days a week, , although I work always that it is divided between days in which I work more and days in which I work less. So there are some days in which I work less because it's a Sunday or it's a vacation. So I will be working less, but I will always be working. It doesn't, I think it never happens a day in which I don't take care of something. [00:40:25] Chris: what would you say you're most proud of? [00:40:27] Manfredi: Most [00:40:27] Chris: proud of my [00:40:30] Manfredi: friends, my friends. I am very proud of the fact that I have great friends with a strong friendship. And I tell myself there's something right that you can do if you have friends of such good quality that are so attached to you and you're so attached to them. [00:40:52] Chris: I think that's a fantastic answer. And a lot of people would probably want to know a little bit more about that. , When I would imagine trustworthy, , is something that's important when you look for friends. But what are some other things that when you look for friends or friendships that are important for you? [00:41:13] Manfredi: Well, you know, the first of all, there's a generosity in the relationship. [00:41:16] Chris: Yeah. [00:41:18] Manfredi: If the, if the relationships are transactional, there's something which compromises the friendship. So it's just, there can be transaction with friends, but that must not be the basis of a friendship. So trustworthy, uh, based on the sentiment of friendship, the, the interest of seeing each other because of what puts you together, that both have, uh, memories or of a present or of things that interest you, that you're interested in talking to them, uh, sharing with them. So this is, uh, the basic thing. [00:41:59] Chris: I think that's a great way to wrap up the interview Manfredi. , one more question. What else do you want to do? Say in the next 10 years of your life, what are your goals? [00:42:09] Manfredi: Is that there are three things in parallel. One thing I want to have this, Abercrombie & Kent travel group grow and, uh, become very interesting and I do fantastic things. It's such a beautiful business that we enjoy every moment of it. The second thing is. Organize the rest of the world and, and also Abercrombie & Kent ownership in such a way that it can survive me well. And the third thing is, besides doing these things, is enjoying many things that I like. I like to travel, I like to read. Uh, I like to be with my friends. And, uh, so. And I like to do things which are not only tied to a monetary benefit. You know, having been successful from a financial point of view has to buy you, first of all, freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is how you spend your time. So how I spend my time is important. And And spending it, developing the business that we have created, is a satisfaction. Spending it, organizing the wealth, in a way that it can then be at the benefit of the persons I love is a satisfaction. Doing other things, cultivating myself, traveling the world, visiting the world, etc., is a satisfaction. Having the freedom to dedicate part of the time to this without Having to be obliged by other things and having the substantial means to do it is part of the freedom of choice that success gives you. [00:43:45] Chris: Well said. Manfredi, I want to thank you so much for the interview and thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom with our listeners. I love how you wrap that up, talking about the freedom of choice and relationships in your life. So Thank you so much. We're, , honored to have you on the podcast and, we'll see you next time on the show. [00:44:05] Manfredi: Thank you so much. Bye bye. Ciao.  

In this segment Tim & Russ discuss with Chris HOW to pick the right bike for YOU and how the ebike technology is extending peoples riding years and keeping riding buddies or couples together!

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with Wes Cummins, CEO of Applied Digital, for an inside look at the company's revolutionary trajectory. Wes takes us behind the scenes of Applied Digital's evolution from Bitcoin mining infrastructure to leading the charge in specialized cloud and high-performance computing. Our discussion also tackles the grit of entrepreneurship. Wes reflects on Applied Digital's resilience amid regulatory shifts, sharing lessons from his upbringing on perseverance and hard work. As the company grows, so does its specialized workforce, prompting insights on fostering talent retention and aligning culture with business goals. Overall, Wes offers a compelling narrative of continuous innovation through adversity, partnership and calculated risk-taking. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Wes Cummins discusses the origin of Applied Digital, beginning with infrastructure for Bitcoin mining and pivoting to high-performance computing and specialized cloud services. We examine the company's strategic response to China's crackdown on Bitcoin mining and how this external challenge spurred a significant shift in Applied Digital's business model. I reflect on my own experiences with business pivots and emphasize the importance of seeking opportunities amidst market disruptions and regulatory changes. Wes shares insights from his upbringing on a family farm, including the values of hard work and resilience, and how these qualities have influenced his entrepreneurial journey. We talk about the rapid growth of Applied Digital, expanding from three to approximately 200 employees, and the operational challenges associated with scaling up. Wes outlines the importance of building a specialized team with the right skills, highlighting the role of strong human resources and recruiting in managing rapid company growth. The conversation delves into the significance of company culture in driving employee motivation, retention, and the cultivation of a spirit of empowerment and ownership. We discuss the energy challenges in powering AI technology, the use of renewable energy sources, and the potential of nuclear power to meet the increasing demand for data center capacity. Wes considers the future of Texas businesses within the energy grid, including the financial and infrastructural challenges of meeting the needs of hyperscalers. Finally, Wes and I touch on personal leadership styles, the evolution from micromanagement to autonomy, and the value of mentorship in fostering a productive work environment. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Applied Digital GUESTS Wes CumminsAbout Wes TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Wes Cummins, ceo of Applied Digital. Wes's company is building the next generation of digital infrastructure in the United States. He shares his thoughts on how building a strong company culture starts by providing opportunities for growth to your employees. All right, wes, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business and thanks for taking time to come on the show. Wes: Chris, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Chris: So let's start by just you introducing yourself. I'll at least say I know you're the CEO and founder of Applied Digital. Tell us a little bit about Applied Digital. What is that company and what is it known for? Wes: Sure. So. Applied Digital is a company that is building next generation digital infrastructure, and the company started by building infrastructure for Bitcoin mining back in 2021. Crypto mining, where a lot of the hash rate about 70% of the hash rate was in China at the time had to go elsewhere in the world. A lot of that came to the US. We assembled a team that had experience in the sector which there wasn't a lot of people in the US that had experience, given. I think it was sub 5% of the hash rate was actually in the US at the time Assembled a team, secured power sites because it takes a large amount of electricity and built data centers, which is the digital infrastructure for Bitcoin. We don't mine Bitcoin ourselves. We never have. We provide a data center service for Bitcoin miners, and the original business idea around that was anyone can be a Bitcoin miner if they come to us, so you need to have money to buy the miners, the servers, and you come to us and sign a contract. We put it in our facility, we run it for you and Bitcoin just starts hitting your wallet and you're a Bitcoin miner. So that was the original business idea. What it ended up being was we signed a few industrial scale Bitcoin miners that filled up all of our facilities Our largest customer being Marathon Digital, which I believe is the largest Bitcoin miner in the world and so that we built about 500 megawatts of data center capacity in about 24 months for Bitcoin mining. And then, in 2022, we started looking at what other products or services can we offer on our sites and with our assets, and what we landed on was high-performance computing, and at the time, high-performance computing was more of a niche market. That went after, like geotech analysis for oil and gas, aerospace design, automotive design, drug discovery, graphics rendering, and high-performance computing is typically GPU-based, typically requires significantly more power in a single rack, so much, much higher power density than traditional data centers. So we designed that in 22, started building it at the end of 22, our first facility, and then, in October of 22, we put a software layer in place to run a cloud service out of our facility, and we started running that cloud service in December of 22. Out of our facility and we started running that cloud service in December of 22. And the customers were initially small, mostly universities that were doing research, machine learning, deep learning out of that facility, and we put the cloud service in place to be our own first customer and our new style of data center, to show the data center work, and then we could lease out the data center capacity. And then, as everyone knows, the world has changed since December 22,. Really, it was when ChatGPT hit the scene, so everyone got their first taste of generative AI at a wide scale and what it does. And then, in March of 23, nvidia introduced the H100 GPU, which was their next big data center GPU upgrade from the A100. And it turned out that the data center we were building was kind of a perfect fit for the new NVIDIA gear and we were out marketing that and we landed our first actually cloud service customer in May of 20 character AI. And so we've leaned. Now we've done two things. We've leaned into the cloud services business and signed more contracts and more customers. There we're basically we own the compute and we provide a very specialized cloud service that's GPU based. And then the other thing we're doing is we went back and initially we were going to build five or 10 megawatt facilities on these sites and now we're back to building hundreds of megawatts of high performance computing, high power, density, data center capacity, mostly right now in North Dakota. But we, you know, this is a new kind of a new world on digital infrastructure and we can talk about that a lot more, but that's really what our company does is next generation digital infrastructure. Chris: That's an incredible story. Let me just kind of back up to the beginning. What was the inspiration for you to even start the business back when you did yeah, so? Wes: it's a little bit interesting. So the business model changed quickly after we started. So the initial business model was actually deploying you know kind of industrial scale GPU capacity to do altcoin mining. And that goes back a lot more to my background, which you know. I've been a tech investor for 25 years now and really what I saw was an opportunity in that market. So altcoins are anything but Bitcoin, basically, and the largest being Ethereum, and the idea was we were going to deploy a lot of GPUs and there were many different proof of work networks that require GPU capacity to run for different altcoins Again Ethereum being the largest when it was proof of work, before transitioning to proof of stake. And the idea was, as an investor, instead of putting money into these different altcoins, you could actually just aim the compute power at different networks depending on which one was most profitable. And so we were going to be a large scale GPU operator doing Ethereum and other altcoins, and we signed an agreement with a company called Sparkpool that was the largest Ethereum pool in the world I think it had roughly 25% of the entire hash for Ethereum at the time and we were going to deploy a lot of GPUs in China actually, and so we raised money for that in April of 21. And then, at the end of May of 2020, was when China cracked down on Bitcoin mining and our business model changed because the opportunity to build all this infrastructure in the US was basically presented to us. I'd already started to assemble the team that could go out and do that, and then we just accelerated that. So that was really the genesis of the company. But you know, when the world changes, you have to be accommodative to that, and so we have been. Chris: That's a great point to make and let's kind of stay on that for a minute. You start out with an idea and a plan and that was going to be in China. China, you know, without any control, you have changes, the laws and things, and you're forced to pivot. Walk us through, maybe, how that played out for you, the decision-making. Other entrepreneurs face that all the time, I think, and some successfully and, as you know, some unsuccessfully. So what are some of the things maybe you could share to help someone navigate through when market dynamics beyond your control change and force you to just totally pivot your business model? Wes: Yeah, it's an interesting position and, you're right, sometimes it's hard to make it through those. So what we did? We stepped back, because when the news first hit I remember it was I think it was the last Friday in May I was sick to my stomach. It was just like the entire business model we were going after has just been closed for us. But we spent some time over the weekend thinking about what opportunities does this create? And it became very clear the opportunity it created very quickly. The thing that was fortunate for us is I had already been in discussions about building sites for our GPUs in the US. We were looking at power sites. We were looking the US, we were looking at power sites. We were looking at, you know, construction, we were looking at that, and so there was a pretty clear path. And you know, our partners in China were looking for capacity outside of China very quickly and so we kind of had a natural customer base and we already had kind of the start of looking at these sites and what we could do there. So it was very helpful to have that. But you know, at the start it was a big gut punch when we found that out and it took us. You know, really over the weekend it became clear for us, but then it took us a couple of weeks to really change and take action on the new business opportunity and take action on the new business opportunity. But what I would say in general is typically if there's a big change, it definitely can wreak havoc with current businesses, but it's going to create some new opportunity. Chris: I think that's the idea. Wes: That's the idea of the opportunity, yeah. Chris: Yeah, I think that's the. The lesson I see consistent in talking to entrepreneurs is, you know, gut punch moments cause you to rethink the business model or where the weaknesses are, but it's about looking for the opportunity, because with every roadblock then I said, if you really take a close analysis of the situation, you can find opportunity, and then you just try to figure out how to pursue that. Wes: Yep, that's what we did, and, like I said, we were fortunate in that we'd already started putting some of these puzzle pieces in place prior to that news coming out, and so it was a little bit of an easier transition, but it wasn't an easy transition by any means. Chris: So you know it may be too a little bit of your makeup and I know I think a little bit about you. You grew up on a farm, I think in Idaho, and there have to be some lessons learned in growing up in a rural environment that teaches you that you just keep your head down and keep plugging away. Wes: Yeah, you know there's many lessons from farming and I was in kind of the last generation at least in Idaho of family farms where you know all the family members worked on the farm before it was much more commercial and so you know, generally around five to six years old we started working on the farm. I'm sure at that age we were zero help, but you know you have to get trained into it. But we, you know we did in Idaho. You do a lot of irrigating. You get up at 430 in the morning and go stand in a wet, cold potato field and move irrigation equipment around for about an hour and a half. Then you get to do it again in the middle of the day and again at night. So there was a lot of lessons. But our dad taught us being self-starters right. So self-starter was a big part of what else do I need to do, not just the task he gave me and then I have to wait for him to give me another task. Obviously hard work, but I always make the joke. The biggest thing that growing up on a potato farm taught me is that I did not want to be a farmer. That was probably the biggest takeaway for me, but it did instill, you know, very strong work ethic and that's. You know farming is a hard business. Just because you know, like many businesses or maybe it's the worst out of any business the predictability is just. It's just not there right, it's not predictable at all. You know, I always tell people when we used to do stock investments. You know, let me tell you how farming works is. Let's say that you're going to invest in a company that trades publicly. You give me all your money now, and let's call now being it's April, but let's say it was March, and then in October I'll tell you how many shares of stock you purchased, right, which would be your yield of your crop, and then you have, you know, five months to sell all those shares, no matter what the price, and that that's how farming works. You put all your money in up front. You have no idea what you have until your yield comes out, and then you don't know what the market's going to be after that, and maybe you're going to get zero shares because a hailstorm comes through or something. So you know there's a certain resiliency that it teaches you as well, because there's very lean years and there's very fat years. Chris: Yeah, interesting perspective and very true. So you know that's kind of turning back to kind of apply digital. So you know, kind of turning back to kind of apply digital, how has the company grown from a kind of a workforce and facility location in the last couple of years? Wes: So we went from three employees at the start to we're about 200 employees now. Our headquarters in Dallas, texas, and we have the second headquarters here where we run a 24-7 network operations center. And then we have sites, two sites in North Dakota. We recently divested a site in West Texas, so now we're down to two sites in North Dakota and we're really focused on those sites right now. Hyper-scale size data center deployments it is specifically our Ellendale North Dakota site. Data center deployments, specifically our Ellendale North Dakota site, where we have a significant amount of power contracted, so expect to continue to grow pretty significantly over the next few years just because of the market opportunity we see in front of us, it's a lot of growth in a short period of time. Chris: What are some of the things that you've done, kind of as a CEO, to help manage that growth, so that you know you're building a strong team to kind of execute on the company strategy? Wes: So one of the things I've done and I'm, you know, I've been an entrepreneur and investor for a long time, but as I've just, I guess the wisdom I've gained with age is making sure I put the you know the people around me that have the skills that I'm lacking. So I, you know, really focusing on the things that I do really well and putting the other you know other people in the seats around me that do things that I don't do well, extremely well. And so you know, as you grow, I would say the kind of the bigger one for me or for us growing this quickly is, you know, having strong human resources, having strong recruiting, so that we get the right people in the right positions and they're managed the right way and we put the right type of structure in place for all of our employees to be successful. And then so, so we have that. That's been a big one. And then you know, our financing team we're in a capital intensive business, and then so we have that's been a big one. And then you know, our financing team we're in a capital intensive business, and then so we have a great finance team, and then, you know, we have a tech team, so we're kind of a blend between a real estate and a technology business and we're on the leading edge of this new high power density. You know, really, ai workload technology, and so we've had to attract the right talent for that, because, similar when we were building the Bitcoin facilities, you know it was a really shallow talent pool in the US. And it's the same with, you know, large GPU deployments that, like I said earlier, that was a niche market going back to you know 22. And now it's just exploded. But finding the people that know what they're doing, managing these and you know deploying, operating, managing large scale GPU deployments is was difficult. We were early and we were able to attract you know good, really good talent in that space. But you had to go to, you know, national labs and universities to find people that had experience with really large GPU deployments, and so we've done a good job. But that goes back again to recruiting and HR and having a really strong team there to find the people that we need. But there's definitely growing pains, right, as you grow up as a company and you know putting the appropriate structures in place, because when you're, you know a three to five person startup, right, everyone's doing everything and as you grow, the people that were there originally doing everything need to become more specialized. You know, in a group of the company, so that's a that's kind of a harder transition as well. But if you, you know you find the right people and you, you know the team all works together, you're able to achieve that. But there's a in three years there've been a lot of changes at the company, a lot of new faces, and then you know, specializing people. That started, you know, doing everything. When we built our first facility, I think it was eight or nine of us at the company, right, and we're all doing everything to make that happen. And now it's gotten bigger and larger scale and we've added a lot of specialty inside the company. AD: Hello friends. This is Chris Hanslick. You're building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations, and business leaders. Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the at BoyerMiller. com. And thanks for listening to the show Chris: That's great. So you talk about kind of the importance in the recruiting process and, I think, equally important, in the kind of onboarding, integration process, anything that y'all have implemented that you believe that's innovative in that regard to kind of help customize and streamline that process. Wes: You know, I don't think there's anything particularly innovative about what we've done. It's what I will say about our company is, you know you it's kind of recruiting from two different pools. So you have nationwide recruiting for you know people that will come and sit in, you know whether it's exec or you know SVP type roles at the company, and then we have to do a lot of local recruiting. That's another one is you know, our sites are managed locally. We have the 24-7 NOC that sits here in Dallas, but there's been a big push because our sites are typically in rural areas and so that's probably one of the biggest challenges is recruiting and training all of the people and the talent that goes directly to the sites. So it's a unique mix for our company in that instance is that you know it's kind of two different styles of workforce but we have two different recruiters that manage that. Chris: How do you then bring it back together, as you mentioned, two different workforces and obviously two different geographic locations, different states. What are some of the things that you are doing as a CEO and maybe with your senior management, to build and nurture a culture at the company that everyone gets behind, to kind of further the mission? Wes: So I think one of the biggest things that I promote a lot at our company and a lot of the other management promotes is what you would expect at a small, fast growing company. There's a lot of upward mobility opportunities at a company like this and I love to highlight those success stories within our company and really encourage people with the upward mobility. That, I think, is just a big motivator and a big part of our culture. Chris: I think it's been my experience. If people don't see opportunity in your organization, then they're going to start looking somewhere else. Wes: Look we have Our site manager in Ellendale. He was. He was like the I don't know if he was the night manager or but he was. You know he was. He was working at Walmart at night in Jamestown, north Dakota, when he started as an operator at our site in Jamestown jobs that you could do for our company and a year later he was managing the site in Ellendale and he just you know his work ethic and he just shined through and he was able to move up very quickly and, you know, moved his family to Ellendale, north Dakota, and is running the site there for us now. And it's just, you know that we have many of those stories inside of the company, but we do. I think we're unique in that we do hire locally, we offer training for these technical jobs and you know they pay typically very well versus other jobs that are available in these locations and again, there's a lot of room for advancement inside the company and it creates a really nice culture for us. Chris: So you were talking about where the business, I guess is pivoted to in large part, is providing energy and power to fuel the AI movement. There's been a lot written and discussed about the idea that one of the limiting factors of the power of AI is the lack of power to run the centers or the computers needed to run the machines to do the learning and have that advance. What's your take on that? Because where do you see the industry from the power supply and how do you see that improving over time to try to keep up with the technology? Wes: Yeah. So it's a big issue issue now and it's going to become an even bigger issue as we go through this year and into next year. Just the power capacity in the US. So the ring in Virginia basically out of power. That's the most popular data center market in the US. Santa Clara, maybe the second most popular data center market out of power. Chris: If you want new power there, it's seven to 10 years and a lot of the other Wait a minute, say those two things again because I don't think people have an appreciation for that issue and the magnitude of what you just said. So in Virginia and the nation's capital-. Wes: Yep Santa Clara. Chris: And so. Wes: California, yes, silicon Valley, two big data center markets. They're effectively out of power. Chris: If you want new power there, it's a really long wait time seven to 10. Wes: Because you have to build the infrastructure right. You need power generation and you need transmission right, and generation can be built much faster than transmission can be built. It depends on where you are right. Some states are much friendlier to new power generation than others are. So what we have done to solve that is we focus on stranded power, which stranded power means there's a lot of power generation and maybe not enough transmission to move that power out of the location where it's being generated. And the way we solve for that is we take our product, our infrastructure, to the point of generation. And so there's some other things that you have to do. You have to make sure that there's a good fiber grid for fiber optic communications at the site as well. So not every site works for this, but there's a significant amount of stranded power around the globe, but we're focused mostly here in the US. And how do you get stranded power around the globe? But we're focused mostly here in the US. And how do you get stranded power? There's really two ways that I've seen that you end up with stranded power in the US, and one is renewables are a big source of that solar and wind and typically everything we have done has been located with wind farms and there's an incentive to build where the wind blows a lot for wind farms and land is cheap, and it's, you know, there's an incentive to build where the wind blows a lot for wind farms and, you know, land is cheap. And so North Dakota, I believe, is the sixth largest wind producing state in the country and they're 48th or 49th in population. That state generates over double the amount of power that they use inside the state, and so we, you know, at our Ellendale facility, I believe, it's about two gigawatts of wind that feeds into that substation, and that's where we are located. So finding strain of power that way the other way strain of power happens in the US and, I would assume, around the world too is a very power hungry. Industry goes out of business, company goes out of business or closes a plant or something in a certain area, and there's this massive amount of power infrastructure that's left behind. So, like Alcoa smelter plants, for example, that have been shut down, those have become Bitcoin mining sites and probably sites that are attractive for high power density data centers as well. So we focus on that. Now that can be a short and kind of medium termterm solution. Longer term, you know, it becomes a bigger issue and I've heard you know any kind of. There's been so many numbers thrown around. One of the hyperscaler CEOs last week, at a conference I believe, said that a hundred gigawatts of data center capacity would need to be built between now and 20, just to supply the hyperscale. And so to put that in perspective, the entire US market for data center capacity is like 22, 23 gigawatts right now built over the last 30 years, and you're saying there needs to be a hundred in the next six years. That's going to be pretty hard One to find the power and two permitting building all of the other things that go along with it. Maybe the number's not that high, but it's still going to be a very big number. And in the meantime, for electricity, you have competing priorities, right. So you have this new data center application, you have EVs becoming a bigger percentage of cars being driven, you have new things like green hydrogen generation, which requires a lot of electricity as well. So there's definitely competing priorities and it's going to be a bigger and bigger issue. And for me I've thought a lot about this that the only solution that I see the longer term for this. If we want to do it in an environmentally friendly way, which I think everyone's focused on is there needs to be a lot more nuclear generation for baseload. Chris: Okay, that's interesting. Baseload, okay, that's interesting. Not dissimilar from what I've heard and the other things that get talked about is a lot of power is generated through water, right, and then we have competing issues on the need for water. Is it going to be to power these centers or for human life? So we're going to be struggling with those over the years to come. Let's talk a little bit about, I guess, from where you sit. Where do you see this AI and power generation issue and what are the opportunities and or risks for the Texas business ecosystem, if you will? What are the opportunities where Texas and Texas businesses might thrive and what are some risks? Wes: So there's I think there's a lot of Texas businesses that will thrive. We actually source a lot of our components and equipment out of many local Texas businesses here. So there's that ecosystem and that includes, you know, transformers, switchgear a lot of the electric gear that's going into our facilities we source out of Texas. So there's a big opportunity there for Texas at large. Outside of us, you know one of the largest, you know, energy grids in the country here with ERCOT, and so there's a lot of opportunity there. You know there's a lot of there is stranded power opportunities specifically in West Texas that could feed into this. It needs a little bit better. You know fiber network. It depends on where you are in West Texas. So some of those work. But there's a large opportunity for infrastructure in Texas for certain, and it's a very attractive market for that. But there's a lot of other businesses in Texas that are feeding into this entire supply chain. You know it goes down, it's pretty, it's a pretty deep supply chain for this business. And if you think about so, let's say, a meg of data center capacity, we have our own costs, that we do. But if you're building tier three style data centers for this type of power application you $1.2 billion for a gigawatt. You're spending $12 billion on construction and equipment and so we're saying $12 billion for a gigawatt and, like I said, on the high end of the numbers I've seen out there, we need 100 gigawatts over six years. That's a lot of business to be done. A lot of investment by the way, chris, that doesn't include the compute gear inside of the data center. So yeah, so that the cost does not include, you know, the gpus or servers and networking gear to go inside the data center and you should think about that being kind of. You know two and a half to three x what the cost of the data center is, so it's just staggering numbers. Chris: You're talking 30 to 40 million per gigawatt per megawatt. Wes: And then times that by a thousand for a gigawatt, and then the number I gave early was again this is a number that was not provided by me, but 100 gigawatts over six or seven years. Yeah, it's a really big number. Chris: Wow, well, it's coming off of that. I want to turn back kind of towards you a little bit and I always like to kind of talk about leadership styles. I think that's helpful for business owners to kind of reflect on themselves about how you show up as a leader, knowing that can evolve over time. So how would you describe your leadership style today? How do you think that's evolved over time? Wes: Yeah. So my leadership style is, you know I mentor some people. I like to, you know, keep people constantly involved in what I'm doing so they see what I'm doing day to day. And you know again, as the company has grown right, that I don't interface with every employee on a regular basis. You know I have a leadership style, that is, I'm not a micromanager. I want people to be successful in their roles. I want them to take, you know, the authority in their roles and manage their part of the business for them. And I think that's how you know, over time, how you build a much more efficient. You know big company versus a small company. You know, when we were first starting out, I definitely was, you know, had to be more of a micromanager because I was involved in every single task of the business. But as you get the right people in places and I give them a lot of autonomy to run their groups, I think that fosters a good culture and company over time is, you know, people feeling empowered and then feeling like they have you know, the destiny of at least their group. And then what I really still like about being a small company, even though we're much bigger than we were is everyone can see their own direct impact on the company. Right, you can still make a big difference as one individual inside of the company and I really I foster that culture inside the company a lot and again, I always push on this upward mobility and the fact that you're at a place where there's a lot of opportunity. Here at this place, you don't need to look outside of it to find opportunity, and I think it creates a lot of excitement inside the company and we all kind of with a small business, you kind of all ride the roller coaster together because you constantly have setbacks and you constantly have victories Then and you know we've had stretches where we have, you know, setback after setback and that maybe comes on the heels of a lot of victories in a row too. So you know, riding that roller coaster is something that everyone has to get used to, but I think we do it really effectively. But hopefully that answers the question of kind of a leadership style. Chris: Yeah, no, definitely. And you alluded to something that's part of my next question and that is because it's just part of life Can you think of and share with us kind of a challenge or setback that you've encountered could be in your personal life, but or in business that you learned from? That made you better? Wes: Yeah. Chris: And those are always, I think, some of the best learning moments. Wes: I've. You know, in my career I've had many of those and those are, you know, those are definitely learning moments and it's been, you know, either investments or in other businesses, and this is where I was talking about earlier that. You know, one of the biggest lessons I've learned is surrounding myself with people that have the skill set I don't have right. That's probably the biggest one, but I would say the biggest as far as running this company. You know, as you run a company that's growing fast and you're doing a lot of different things, you know you have to be a problem solver, right. A lot of people get really down about issues that happen inside the company. You know we had some setbacks recently where we had some. You had some equipment issues on one of our sites that went down and then, while that was happening our Texas site we were notified by the power provider that they were taking it down, for I don't remember if it was 10 or 14 days, for improvements on their grid had nothing to do with us, and so you have all of this kind of hit at the same time and if you're the CEO or another executive company, you have to be a leader. Through that. You have to solve those problems. I'm not a person who goes and screams and yells at people because I don't find it productive, but that's been the biggest is, if you're starting a company, you're going to have so many challenges. You have to be a problem solver for those challenges and especially if you have employees around you, you have to be the problem solver. And I say this about most. We're kind of an interesting blend between real estate and tech as a business, but if you're like a tech entrepreneur, you have to be a perpetual optimist. Right, you just have to be, otherwise you won't last. So you have a lot of setbacks and you have to fix those and grow and become stronger from them. But, yeah, I would say that's probably the number one is being a problem solver. Chris: I like that. So many people I've talked to. The word I would use is as an entrepreneur, you have to have grit, and it's not as easy as you think it's going to be and expect the unexpected right. Wes: Definitely expect the unexpected. Chris: Kind of like when China shut your business model down. Exactly so you know, Wes, this has been a really great conversation. I think we could go on forever, but I want to just turn to a little kind of fun personal side before we wrap up that. You know, I think we've already answered this question, because I usually ask my guests what their first job was, and I think it sounds like yours was on a potato farm in Idaho. Wes: So yeah, my first job was working on the family farm and then my second job when I was in college was I was a service station auto mechanic from skills I had learned on the farm. And then I was finally able to get out of that with an internship institutional money management firm. I think it was my junior year in college I was able to do that. But and then I went to an investment bank in New York out of college and then it's kind of been you know some of those through that to here. But yeah, the I would say my first real job outside of working for my dad on his farm was auto mechanic at a service station. Chris: That's impressive. So how long have you been in Texas? I moved to Texas in 2013. Okay, so you've been here long enough to answer my next question, which is do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Wes: If the Tex-Mex is right, I prefer Tex-Mex. Chris: Okay, I like that qualification, so we'll wrap up with this one. If you could take the Tex-Mex is right, I prefer Tex-Mex. Okay, I like that qualification, so we'll wrap up with this one. If you could take a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Wes: Wow, that's a good question. It's never even crossed my mind that I would have the ability to do that 30-day sabbatical somewhere that is not a population center, probably has a beach, doesn't have to be anything specific and people can't find me on my cell phone. That would be the requirements. Chris: Those are good ones. I like those. Well, I do like the question, because most entrepreneurs never take the time to think about that right. Wes: Or have the liberty to. I have not thought about that one. Chris: Well, good, now you at least have a framework for it if it ever happens. So, wes, thanks so much for taking the time. I really appreciate getting to know you and hearing your story. It's fascinating stuff what you and your team at Applied are doing and have done already. Wes: Thanks for having me. I always love talking about our company.

In this week's episode, I tackle your questions regarding image, sex, and dating! From exploring things outside of your comfort zone to the importance of sexual compatibility in relationships,  this episode covers a variety of topics that you won't want to miss. Remember to embrace your authenticity, take care of your mental health, and put your best foot forward in dating! Please reach out and tell us your thoughts about the Q&A over on Instagram @celestemooreimage and don't forget to rate and review if you love the podcast! In this week's episode we discuss: [02:35] Question 1: (Gavin) - What role does fashion play in personal branding? [05:13] Question 2: (Jerome) - How do you navigate consent in a casual relationship? [06:40] Question 3: (Levi) - What is one thing that everyone should try at least once in their dating life?  [08:09] Question 4: (Chris) - How has the conversation around mental health changed in recent years?  [10:26] Question 5: (Daren) - What's the most unexpected lesson you've learned from past relationships? [12:39] Question 6: (Casey) - How do you maintain individuality while in a long-term relationship? [14:56] Question 7: (Philip) - What is the key to a successful first date? [18:04] Question 8: (Doug) - How important is sexual compatibility in relationships?

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, we sit down with Jerry Mooty, the CEO and Principal of @properties, Christie's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry takes us through his remarkable journey from managing partner at a law firm to heading a major real estate brokerage. He shares how resilience and adaptability allowed him to steer his business through the 2008 financial crisis and leverage opportunities arising from the pandemic. Jerry also provides insights into growing his firm through innovative hiring strategies and technological platforms that streamline agents' work. We explore lessons learned around overcoming adversity, strategic partnerships, and balancing operations with culture. His story offers a candid look inside one industry titan's challenges and triumphs in managing debt, acquisitions, and new ventures in sports and entertainment. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jerry Mooty shares his transition from being a managing partner at a law firm to creating and growing a real estate brokerage, including the challenges faced during the 2008 financial crisis and opportunities leveraged during the COVID-19 pandemic. We discuss Jerry's innovative business model that hires agent-attorneys and how it differentiates his brokerage in a competitive real estate market. The episode covers the technological advances at @properties, such as the Platform, which incorporates AI and a suite of tools to increase agent productivity. Jerry reflects on managing $60 million in personally guaranteed debt and the strategy behind transitioning to a debt-free business structure. Strategic partnerships and the process of acquisitions, especially in the technology sector, are explored along with Jerry's experience in due diligence and venture capital dynamics. Jerry discusses the significance of cultivating a company culture focused on employee well-being and the shift in his leadership style from operations to creating an enjoyable work environment. We touch on the importance of friendships in Jerry's professional journey and how they've influenced his career decisions and leadership approach. Challenges facing traditional real estate agencies like Remax are considered, with a focus on adapting to technological advancements and market changes. Jerry provides insights into his personal preferences, revealing his fondness for barbecue over tex-mex, adding a personal element to the conversation. The conversation highlights Jerry's efforts in expanding his business, including the recent launch of a sports and entertainment division and developer services to cater to specific client needs in the real estate market. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About @properties,Christie's International Real Estate GUESTS Jerry MootyAbout Jerry TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Jerry Mooty, ceo and principal of App Properties, christy's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry, by anyone's definition, is a serial entrepreneur, having started a law firm, credit card processing company, real estate development company and now a real estate brokerage firm. And Jerry tells aspiring entrepreneurs expect the unexpected. Jerry, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on and welcome you to building Texas business. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Good to see you too. It's been a while. Let's just start. You know you've done a number of things and we'll get into some of that, but currently, what's the business that you've started and you're currently today? Jerry: So Jerry Mooty from Dallas have a business now in the residential real estate brokerage industry. So I compete with Compass and some big national brands that most of the listeners will know about. Chris: And that company's called App Properties right. Jerry: Yes, sir, it's called App Properties Christy's International Real Estate. So we kind of have a working on that. Chris: And I know you're kind of got the Dallas area covered, but I think you've also recently expanded into Austin. Jerry: Yeah, so we started in Dallas proper with our headquarters, and then we opened a second office in Frisco, texas, and then we just recently, in the fall of 2023, opened up Austin, texas. Chris: So you know, as a recovering attorney, what was it that inspired you to get into the residential brokerage real estate business? Jerry: So, interesting enough, you kind of know my history, but I founded a law firm when I was 28 and I grew that into about 60 lawyers in four cities. As the managing partner, I started doing a lot of deals for the partners as opposed to practicing law, and I went down several paths. I had a litigation support company that I founded and grew that for the partners and then, you know, ironically got into a real estate development a little startup where I had a home building division building spec homes and I had a commercial division where I was doing some commercial projects. Raw land development had a resort under contract in Bernie, but, like a lot of people in real estate, 2009, 2010 came and that was the end of my glory days in real estate. All right. Chris: So then, what led you to? You know, get involved with app properties and then take this down, go down this rabbit trail. Jerry: Sure. So in 2012, I sold my interest in the law firm back to the partnerships. I didn't want to go back to practicing full time and then did quite a few different entrepreneurial things from about 2013 to about 2019. Any you know, I had a credit card processing company, backed by the Jones family, called Blue Star Payments that merged in with a tech company and we rebranded Blue Star Sports. We were backed by some pretty large VC firms Bain Capital and GenStar partners and Providence Equity and then obviously, the Jones family. So we acquired about 27 companies in about three years and then we sold that company in 2017. Then I was kind of looking for the next thing and I became the chief business and legal officer for a Silicon Valley tech company for a couple of years. They were in a big money raise and it wasn't going so well and I was deferring comp. So I started looking at what I was going to do next. One of the people in my network is a ex litigation real estate litigator. She had gone on and got married, had kids, got a real estate license and had a brokerage here in Dallas and her model was she was going and convincing unhappy lawyers to get the real estate license. So she had about 10 agents slash attorneys as her brokerage and she approached me to come in and run her brokerage for kind of like I did the law firm. So that piqued my interest enough so we went down that path. Sadly we didn't get to execute our documentation because they ended up having a divorce situation. And then two weeks later COVID hits and so I'm waiting to take my real estate license and not sure what I'm going to do after that. Come out of the first 90 days of COVID, the market's red hot, so I hang my license, I start doing deals for my network friends and start marketing myself as an agent. All the meanwhile I'm looking for something to buy or to own or start, and so that led me through developer relationship here in Dallas to the ownership group of at properties out of Chicago. They made that introduction, flew up and met with them and really fell in love with not only the brand and the culture but also the technology that they had built. Chris: Amazing story. There's a lot to dive into there. I may definitely want to go back some, but let's stay with that properties for now. And yeah, so you that's a. It's born out of COVID, I guess. Tell us, though you know, because I know just from you, know keeping up with you and then reading on the website you've experienced some like amazing growth in the last, I guess, three and a half years. Let's talk a little bit about that. And in talking about what you've done that you think has helped accelerate it, let's talk also about the maybe the pains with growing so fast. Jerry: Sure. So as I was looking to own something and this opportunity came up, I negotiated to purchase, you know, the North Texas territory. But I wasn't really prepared to launch because it was just me and I hadn't done a whole lot of recruiting. But I had some real estate deals in the pipeline that I needed to leave the current brokerage I was at before I papered those up. So I ended up launching at properties by myself just one agent, and got temporary space and, you know, true entrepreneurial spirit started recruiting, putting in my support team, landed a pretty big compass team right out of the gate and that kind of helped accelerate the visibility. And so the first, you know, six months we grew to 10 agents by Christmas. So it wasn't, we weren't a big brokerage, but we were putting things in place. By the next year we were about just under 40 agents. So we had a really good, successful year and, you know, quadrupling our size and then last year 2023, we doubled again to about 80 agents in Dallas. So we've been kind of there's been some faster growth brokerages, but we're very we're considered more luxurious. Our agents are more high producing agents and they take a little longer to transfer from one brokerage to another based on their pipeline and their restrictions. So now that we're three and a half years into this and Austin's really kind of been a little bit of a catalyst in the last six months because initially that territory wasn't available there was a Christie's affiliate there my corporate partner asked me if I wanted Austin about a year and a half ago. I said yes and so I started putting the play pieces in place and we launched that in September. We've added quite a few agents in the first 120 days over 70 something agents there. So all in we got about a hundred agents in Dallas, about 70 in Austin. So that's the good side of the business. The headaches, as you know as an entrepreneur, are several and many. Too many to list, but we'll cover a few. My most recent success story is I just hired a controller after three and a half years. So I've been doing the books, reporting to corporate, paying the royalties, paying the checks, paying the agents. So those are the things. As an entrepreneur, you really you put your blood, sweat and tears into these businesses and then you have to get to a certain level, to where you could start to relieve yourself of some of these pains. Chris: Yeah, that's so true, jerry. A lot of the people that I've had on before say exactly that that it's one when you're starting out, you're not big enough to outsource it or to hire for it, so you got to do it. But then it's getting to that point when you even when you are big enough and can afford it the level of trust and hiring the right person to hand off those key aspects of the business, so it frees you up to do the things as an entrepreneur or the visionary you want to be doing. So let's talk about that. What was it that you think helps get to a level of trust and comfort that it's time to hand off and it's the right person to hand off to? Jerry: Yeah, I think, based on my background of being an entrepreneur, you make a lot of friends and you kind of know. You learn the hard way. You hire the wrong person a few times and then, as you get older and more seasoned, you kind of know what to look for. In this instance, with that properties, I hired somebody I'd known for 35 years to come in and be my director of agents. I've known her since the SMU days, so the trust was already built in and then you're just very selective as you add the pieces to the puzzle to get those right people in place. So in half years we've let one or two people go, but we've been pretty successful in hitting the mark. Chris: That's great. So 70 agents or so you said. Have you started to implement any kind of processes that help with the integration process as you bring in these new people, so they understand kind of what the expectations are, what the benefits are for making the move? I mean, so where are you and what's the process you've gone through to kind of make that more institutionalized? Jerry: So the background for at properties and the corporate support we have is pretty important in how we've gotten here. They're a 25 year brokerage. They're the eighth largest in the country before acquiring the Christie's affiliate network, so they kind of had the processes in place. So it's buying. Whenever you buy a franchise and you wanna go down this path, you kind of get a little bit of assistance from and some help along the way on someone else putting the right pieces in place. I think what we've done a great job is integrate and implement those things that they've brought to the table, which I think revolves around a lot of our culture. You know, I think culture is so important in any business you have and so it's just we have fun things called at love, local events that came from corporate. So we'll pick a merchant somewhere in our geographical area, we'll partner with them, we'll send out a marketing campaign. Let's say it's a coffee shop and then whoever shows up at that coffee shop, our agents are there and we're running a tap for a coffee or a Danish in the morning. So that's kind of the community outreach piece. We use the word love strategically in all our marketing. So we say bringing the love to Dallas, bringing the love to Frisco and those types of things. So you know, recruiting is probably once you get the, once you get your overhead stabilized and your office space and those types of things. This is a business about relationships and recruiting. So I would say our two most important people outside of myself are our head of recruiting out of Frisco, head of recruiting out of the Dallas office, and so those have been very good hires. Chris: You know most, I think most businesses. It's hard to say they're not people, businesses or relationship, but certainly you know in the business you're in, where you're so customer facing right, you need good people that can go out and attract good customers, provide good service. But I have to imagine the last 18 months or so in residential real estate hasn't been the easiest. So can you talk a little bit about what you've done to help continue, promote one, promote the culture, to keep people positive and energized while managing through what has to have been a challenging time? Jerry: Yeah, absolutely so. Obviously we're all aware of how hot the market got, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, during COVID and post COVID. What that did in our industry is everybody wanted a real estate license because they saw all these transactions happen. So we had an influx of agents that came in that are young, inexperienced, but were here to make some money. And then, when the market turns, you kind of have the reverse effect. Those people were all eat what you kill, or 10, 9, 9 commissioned agents. They got to figure out how to pay the bills, and so we've had a pretty big exodus. Probably 15 to 20% of our agents across the nation have left the industry, and so that's been good for the sense of the people staying in it because you got less competition. But the ones that stayed in it most of them, have been through some of these ebbs and flows of the market, and so they kind of know how to prepare. And most of that revolves around when your transaction desk is slower, what are you ramping up to do? Are you ramping up your marketing, your postcard, social media content, are you revamping your website? And so those are all things that we, which the agents that work for us and part of our big, strong sales pitch based on the technology that we have. Chris: Got you Speaking of that on the marketing side, you know, are you seeing? I guess, one area or the other as far as marketing strategy work better, get more visibility or more return on investment. You see so much on social media, so it seems natural that that would be one, but I don't know if that's the leading one based on your experience or not. Jerry: Yeah, I think in pretty much every industry has been affected by the internet and no industry more so than real estate. I would say probably 10 years ago you saw a lot of print ads. You saw a lot of ads and you know business journals and those types of things trying to move property. But now it's really a digital world. We're using social media, we're using tools called AdWords, which is a retargeting tool to where it's essentially like if you went and looked at a pair of shoes at Nordstroms and then you left Nordstroms, those shoes are following you around. So we have the ability to target, geo track and geo target potential prospects and clients through our technology. Obviously, websites are important. Your collaboration tools that you're preparing a search for a prospect, like they're looking in this area for a certain price point. We have the ability to set those searches up and work with a prospect or a client on finding the home, ironically in the last price. I don't know when this started, but in the last year or so, almost 85% of buyers find the home they want before they hire an agent, or at least they zero it down based on how much information is on the internet. And so, really, as an agent, what you're trying to do is bring your expertise not only to get that transaction under contract, but then most of the work happens one second transactions under contract all the way through closing. Chris: Right, that is an amazing statistic 85%, but you're right. I mean, when everyone goes to the internet first, I think, to research or validate or do something. So it makes sense to me, but it's a big number. Sounds like you know here you use your work, technology and innovation and stuff quite a bit already since we started the interview. Some of this may have come from your franchise or some may have come from some things You're doing, but what are some of the things you believe are innovative in the way that you're operating the brokerage and helping your agents be successful? Jerry: Sure. So I think when you start understanding what different brokerages bring to the table in regards to support for their agent portfolio. Obviously marketing is a big one because they're pushing all the stuff out that we're talking about, but also the day-to-day operation of an agent is pretty important. Most brokerages large brokerages like Coldwell, banker, some of your biggest national brands are very antiquated when it comes to technology support. I would say there's two brokerages at the forefront. I'd say Compass is in second place and I think App Properties is in first place. And I say that because we've been building a technology stack called Platform, or our franchise or has, since 2003 and basically an agent logs in and does everything they need to do as an agent in one technology. When I interview agents and I show them the technology, they're blown away because they're in four or five, six different technologies throughout the day trying to get their social media posted or created, their transactions done over here, their docuSigns another technology they have to use, and we have everything in one place, and so that's been a real big selling point for us when we're recruiting these agents. Chris: Yeah, I mean anything to make your employees or, in your case, I guess, your contractor's life easier. Have you started to look into, or is this already incorporating any kind of versions of AI? Jerry: AI is already integrated. Nowadays, agents are always doing, as an easy example, they're doing descriptions of the properties. So now you can lean on AI to help you describe a $5 million house with five bedrooms, six baths by describing it into AI, and then it'll help you create that luxury description. So there's things like that. Obviously, our CRM has a lot of AI tied to it and so, yeah, that's the way of the future and it's getting more and more integrated and implemented into all our tools. Very nice, very nice yeah. Chris: All right. So I want to make you kind of reflect back. So yeah, this about, by your own description, not the first time you kind of started a new venture or stepped outside your comfort zone. So when you think about what you did I guess leaving, you know, maybe leaving the law firm or even some of the ventures you started while you were there, but going to credit card processing et cetera where are some of the lessons you learn through those ventures that you think prepared you for taking the step you did without properties and the steps you're taking now to grow so rapidly? Jerry: Yeah, I think if you're a serial entrepreneur like myself, I think the one thing you learn each time that you have an idea or you go down the path of starting something is you think you're going to get to the finish line a lot easier. It's your idea and you think you're going to do that. And I think probably in every instance including the law firm, including the credit card processing is one lesson is it just takes a lot to probably 10 times, 100 times more man hours and work and you got hurdles. That you're not expecting. But I think that's part of the reward too is why I'm built the way I am. You enjoy that when an obstacle comes and you get your way around it or over it. But I think you know frankly, it's probably what every entrepreneur says it's never as easy as you think it is. There's no get rich. You know we talked about most of what we do as lawyers and what I'm doing is a people game. You know you're hiring people and people disappoint, you know, and you're having to find different people sometimes, and so the lesson is just pride and expect the unexpected and you'll be okay and be able to sleep at night. Chris: I like that. Well, think about, is there a kind of a challenge or a failure setback that you can point to over the last, you know, 15 years, 20 years, whatever that you feel is maybe in some ways either a defining moment for you or one of the bigger learning moments that you got? You kind of got hit with a little headwind but you overcame it and because of that it's kind of helped propel you either in your own personal journey as a leader or, you know, in things you learned as an entrepreneur. Jerry: Yeah, I'd say you know, probably the biggest lesson learned of all time was me starting a real estate development company with a home builder and a commercial partner and, you know, diving into that with not a whole lot of experience, and so the challenge was obviously, in real estate, you're hoping to build something and sell it, and so the big challenges is if you build it and you borrow a bunch of money and you don't sell it. And so in 0809, 2010 is probably should have been my premier happiest days of my life. I'm on a law firm, I'm making some good you know coin on the law firm side, but I'm literally getting dragged through the mud financially on the real estate piece, and it's probably one of the reasons it's taken me 10 years to get back into it on the brokerage side, because I literally came out of that was some financial PSD. You know just could not sleep, you know got I mean health issues, depression, pretty much everything you can experience as an entrepreneur and so you figure out a lot about yourself when you're going through something like that, and you know you either stay in bed and talk about it or you pull up your socks and get out and try it again. Chris: That internal fortitude, you know I think any entrepreneurs got to have that or it's just not going to happen. I appreciate you sharing that. Were there some things that you did? You know that you know other than just I mean pure gutted out. You know, to help you kind of get through that. You know, leaning on family friends, I don't know. I mean I have to believe we've got some listeners and other people out there that you're going through the same thing. Jerry: Sure, I think where I lucked out was, you know, just to be frank, I was on about $60 million and personally guaranteed debt that was worth probably about 30 by the time I was trying to get out of it. So there wasn't going to be any family help. It was. It was hey with you, you know, in a loving way, of course. But when you dig a hole like that, you just got to figure out the best way out. And for me, where I benefited was I had a law degree and I was a lawyer and creditors could not touch the ownership interest in my law firm because it was tied to my license. So, through bankruptcy lawyers and all that stuff, I got educated on that and gave me the strategy to get through that situation and come out on the other end, which was one of the reasons I sold the interest of the law firm back to the partners, because that allowed me to have a little bit of a stream of income there in 2012, 13 and 14, while I got the credit card processing company going and getting these other things going. So there was, if there was, a silver lining, it was that fact, but it was still still pretty embarrassing financially and pretty embarrassing as a professional to really go through that over a three or four year period. Chris: You got to be hard but, like I said, I mean now that you've come through it, you know you can certainly appreciate the opportunities you have today and know that. You know I certainly probably learned some lessons of what to not do, going forward right. Jerry: Absolutely, I would say. The one lesson you learn in that scenario is you become a lot more frugal with your financial decisions and you know, especially in the banking industry, like one thing I'm proud of with that properties is we've never bought a bar to dollar. We got zero debt, and so those that's a probably a direct result of what I went through, you know, 15 years ago was I don't want to do another business where I got a bunch of debt and I'm trying to get that off and make money to live off of. Chris: That's great. So you mentioned earlier I think it was a credit card processing BlueStar, where you had some dealings with Bain Capital, and obviously you're dealing with a franchise or in this current business. So let's talk a little bit about maybe what you've learned through that. I kind of relate or maybe call those you know investors, partners, strategic partners. What have you learned as kind of some of the best ways to deal with them so you keep that relationship strong and healthy? And maybe it's something you know that happened that you're like I did this or they did. You know something that happened that soured the relationship, one they got to help our clients here at the firm you know, you know find themselves in those situations all the time, and so I'm curious you know what you know, what lessons you've learned through that process? Jerry: Yeah, so I would say getting involved in. And so when we had the credit card processing company, it was pretty a pretty simple model. We were going out and you know recruiting or or you know we're trying to sell merchants, you know restaurants Anybody who ran a credit card was it was a prospective client approached by a group who had an idea of buying up these technology companies in the youth sports space. So like, if you sign your kid up for soccer, you're there's usually a form and at the end of that form, whether it be the YMCA or anywhere else, you're paying a fee for your child to play that on that soccer team. So the model we had was take the credit card processing that we had built our own API and those types of things and bake it into a technology and go buy these companies. And interestingly, it was about how do you flip the model from a EBITDA and a multiple perspective. So these tech companies that weren't that large of companies because they were kind of geographically located, running different types of youth sports camps or whatnot, they weren't sophisticated enough and they were usually outsourcing their credit card processing to stripe or squares or something like that. So we would acquire these companies and bake in our own processing and from an ownership perspective, then that would change the multiple for maybe two times to 12 times because you have that reoccurring revenue stream coming into your business model. I literally probably learned more over that. First, 12 to 20 per month as we were acquiring these companies, doing due diligence on them, and I was the chief legal officer of the company, so I was in charge of all the due diligence. So we acquired 20 something companies and I bet I did due diligence on about 300 over two years. But it was really cool because I got to see what investors and power players in the venture capital market, how they looked at things and it's there's not a lot of emotion, it's numbers on paper and it's how do we make, how do we do this to this group of businesses, and then how do we sell it and make money. All about the return on investment, right. Chris: Exactly so. It's a. Jerry: It's very cutthroat which some businesses are, some aren't, but it was a great learning experience. I'd like to say I probably learned more in that two to three years Dealing with those big VC firms and listening to those meetings and kind of running point on due diligence than I probably learned in any other aspect of my life. Now, that's so, but that's so. Chris: Let's turn it back a little bit to app properties specifically. I know you've recently launched a new sports and entertainment division Tell us about that. What's going on behind that and what are you trying to accomplish so in the real estate brokerage? Jerry: world. There's different ways to market yourself right, and a lot of that boils down to your experience of your agent portfolio, and so some real estate brokerages are residential, some may just be commercial, but on our side we have, we've accumulated some agents that allowed us to create these divisions because of their experience levels. So land and ranch is one division, and then sports and entertainment is another division, and basically there's some criteria that we've put in place before an agent can say they're part of that team or that division dealing with professional athletes or celebrities on a number of occasions, some of the qualifications, but essentially, when somebody's moving like a professional athlete or a celebrity, there's a lot of sensitivity to that, or there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot more moving pieces, and so that specific division has agents who are, you know, experts in helping that transaction or that client Get from point A to B and solve a lot of problems along the way how to move their cars, how to move their kids into new schools, you know everything that comes along with kind of that type of transaction, as opposed to someone just buying a house and selling a house. So are we going to see? Chris: Super Bowl ads anytime soon, if I can at homecom I could afford it. Jerry: No, that's the goal is. We're really good because of how the clients affiliate network has come into play for us. I don't know if we mentioned this before the call or on the call, but you know our corporate partner ended up buying the Christie's affiliate network, which is a network of independently owned brokerages around the world. I think we have 900 offices in 54 countries, about 35,000 agents, and the reason Christie's the auction house, christie's the family who's owned that brand and that company for two hundred years. They sold the app properties because of the technology and we've been for two years bringing a worldwide global powerhouse network together into the technology to share referrals and data and information, and so that's been one of the one of the real keys to some credibility for us. Very cool. Chris: I think you just launched something else, maybe in the last week. Developer services Tell us about that. Jerry: So so again, we all know there's developers out here but we're not sure there's developers out here building multifamily building, you know, developing neighborhoods, multi-use, and so for a brokerage our size to have the ability to provide those services was kind of hard. So we ended up meeting a group of people out of Austin who came from Storybill and for those listeners who've heard about Storybill, that's a multi-billion dollar developer who went, ran out of money last summer. But we ended up negotiating their entire creative team to come over to Christie, our Christie's, and create this development services division. So starting with the chief marketing officer all the way down to their website development team, their on-site sales, so we've got a team of about 12 of superstars and they really fell in love with the Christie's brand to kind of move from Storybill into our umbrella, to kind of push those services out. So that'll be a huge win for us. Chris: So, as you sit there running all this, what is it that kind of triggers for you that this is an opportunity that makes sense, because not everybody can see that, and so there are things you're looking for. How do you go about making that decision and taking on the risk? Jerry: Yeah, so risk is a little less scary in our business because most everybody who works for our brokerage is a 1099 contractor. So we really have a pretty lean machine when it comes to we're running this right now with about seven full-time employees, three offices, so you got overhead from an office space perspective, but really you're kind of it's kind of a lean business model, which is one of the things that attracted me to it. And then obviously you have to have the people to be able to promote these different levels of services. So I think the thing that's been lucky for us is one our relationship and our network in Dallas to help get it started. And then obviously the people we've been able to add at such a young infancy of a company have given us the credibility and the numbers are reflecting that. Chris: Gotcha. So before I don't want to wrap this up without talking a little bit just about you and your leadership style, let's talk. You know, how would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's evolved over time based on the scars and other lessons learned? Jerry: You know you work at a law firm, so you know running a law firm is you got a lot of smart people, a lot of egos, a lot of staff, a lot of overhead, and so I learned a lot about you know the operational side of a business in that seat. And then I think my ownership style has probably changed completely since I left the law firm. I'm a lot more interested in the well-being of my employees, a lot more sensitive to the culture. I think. When you talk about people coming to work and going home, in my mindset now I want that to be a great experience. I kind of use the word experience a lot in the last couple of years for some reason, and I think it's just. My evolution is like everything in our lives is an experience and you can make it a good one or you can make it a bad one, and so I think my leadership style is I want every experience to be a good one. At the best I can make it. Obviously you're going to have your headaches and your issues pop up, but we have the music on in our offices every day. We have happy hours on Thursdays. We built bars in both of our offices in Dallas and Frisco, and then we're putting one in our location in Austin so that we can have happy hours with our agents and our clients and our prospects. We hold a lot of events and I think our interaction with the community and the philanthropic stuff that we're doing is really cool. So I think where I've gotten is you know I'm 54 now and you know I started that law firm at 28 and I had a whole different picture in my mind at 28, right Till 35, of what life was going to be for me, and now I'm kind of trying to enjoy it a lot more. Chris: I love that man. Happy for you. You know clearly you're on the right track and couldn't agree more about how important culture is to any company. And I think I've said similar to you. I think life is about experiences. I think they're only really down to learning experiences good experiences and learning experiences as though, rather than bad, just learn from them and don't repeat them. Jerry: Yeah exactly right. Chris: So let's turn a little bit on the personal side of things and not as serious. What was your first job? Jerry: First job, I was a clerk in a law firm. Chris: Okay. Jerry: I was working in law school. Okay, my first job in high school. Like most of us, I grew up in Missouri in a small town. I had a yard. You know service with my best friend and we had our lawn mowers in the back of his truck and we mowed yards. So that was probably my first experience as a having a job. There you go, and first is an entrepreneur was leaving a 250 person firm to start a law firm with two other guys and being 28 years old and that was pretty exciting. We had metal chairs and you know fold up conference room table and laid out of the movie. Chris: Love it. Well, I can relate to the a little bit to that, but definitely relate to the mowing yards. That's what buddy of mine and I did in high school. So you know good money then I guess. Okay, personal preference, tex-mex or barbecue? Well, that's a tough one Probably barbecue. All right. And if you could, take a 30 day sabbatical. Where would you go? What would you do? Jerry: You know, this is my two sons who are a senior and sophomore at University of Texas right now. They called a year ago about this time and said, dad, we're going to go to Japan. And I was like, okay, and they got on a plane, just the two of them went to Japan for three weeks and after hearing that I kind of want to do that. Chris: How cool is that. The two of us went and did it on their own. Jerry: They did it on their own, traveled around on trains and backpack and love it. They're experienced when they told the stories and went through the pictures. I mean it's just a really cool culture. I'd like to go experience that. Chris: Okay, jerry, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to come on. It's hard to believe that you know I don't. I might add the numbers we met at SMU and, as undergraduates, went to law school together, so we had a lot of years together. So it's great to see where you are today and what you're doing. So proud of you. Jerry: Man. I appreciate that. And the same back at you. I followed you your whole career and super, super proud of you. What kind of legal person you are and lawyer and leader and everything you're about. So appreciate having me on and proud of you too, my man. Chris: All right, we'll do it again. We'll find a reason to do it again sometime soon. Awesome Sounds good. Special Guest: Jerry Mooty.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, we sit down with Jerry Mooty, the CEO and Principal of @properties, Christie's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry takes us through his remarkable journey from managing partner at a law firm to heading a major real estate brokerage. He shares how resilience and adaptability allowed him to steer his business through the 2008 financial crisis and leverage opportunities arising from the pandemic. Jerry also provides insights into growing his firm through innovative hiring strategies and technological platforms that streamline agents' work. We explore lessons learned around overcoming adversity, strategic partnerships, and balancing operations with culture. His story offers a candid look inside one industry titan's challenges and triumphs in managing debt, acquisitions, and new ventures in sports and entertainment. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jerry Mooty shares his transition from being a managing partner at a law firm to creating and growing a real estate brokerage, including the challenges faced during the 2008 financial crisis and opportunities leveraged during the COVID-19 pandemic. We discuss Jerry's innovative business model that hires agent-attorneys and how it differentiates his brokerage in a competitive real estate market. The episode covers the technological advances at @properties, such as the Platform, which incorporates AI and a suite of tools to increase agent productivity. Jerry reflects on managing $60 million in personally guaranteed debt and the strategy behind transitioning to a debt-free business structure. Strategic partnerships and the process of acquisitions, especially in the technology sector, are explored along with Jerry's experience in due diligence and venture capital dynamics. Jerry discusses the significance of cultivating a company culture focused on employee well-being and the shift in his leadership style from operations to creating an enjoyable work environment. We touch on the importance of friendships in Jerry's professional journey and how they've influenced his career decisions and leadership approach. Challenges facing traditional real estate agencies like Remax are considered, with a focus on adapting to technological advancements and market changes. Jerry provides insights into his personal preferences, revealing his fondness for barbecue over tex-mex, adding a personal element to the conversation. The conversation highlights Jerry's efforts in expanding his business, including the recent launch of a sports and entertainment division and developer services to cater to specific client needs in the real estate market. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About @properties,Christie's International Real Estate GUESTS Jerry MootyAbout Jerry TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Jerry Mooty, ceo and principal of App Properties, christy's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry, by anyone's definition, is a serial entrepreneur, having started a law firm, credit card processing company, real estate development company and now a real estate brokerage firm. And Jerry tells aspiring entrepreneurs expect the unexpected. Jerry, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on and welcome you to building Texas business. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Good to see you too. It's been a while. Let's just start. You know you've done a number of things and we'll get into some of that, but currently, what's the business that you've started and you're currently today? Jerry: So Jerry Mooty from Dallas have a business now in the residential real estate brokerage industry. So I compete with Compass and some big national brands that most of the listeners will know about. Chris: And that company's called App Properties right. Jerry: Yes, sir, it's called App Properties Christy's International Real Estate. So we kind of have a working on that. Chris: And I know you're kind of got the Dallas area covered, but I think you've also recently expanded into Austin. Jerry: Yeah, so we started in Dallas proper with our headquarters, and then we opened a second office in Frisco, texas, and then we just recently, in the fall of 2023, opened up Austin, texas. Chris: So you know, as a recovering attorney, what was it that inspired you to get into the residential brokerage real estate business? Jerry: So, interesting enough, you kind of know my history, but I founded a law firm when I was 28 and I grew that into about 60 lawyers in four cities. As the managing partner, I started doing a lot of deals for the partners as opposed to practicing law, and I went down several paths. I had a litigation support company that I founded and grew that for the partners and then, you know, ironically got into a real estate development a little startup where I had a home building division building spec homes and I had a commercial division where I was doing some commercial projects. Raw land development had a resort under contract in Bernie, but, like a lot of people in real estate, 2009, 2010 came and that was the end of my glory days in real estate. All right. Chris: So then, what led you to? You know, get involved with app properties and then take this down, go down this rabbit trail. Jerry: Sure. So in 2012, I sold my interest in the law firm back to the partnerships. I didn't want to go back to practicing full time and then did quite a few different entrepreneurial things from about 2013 to about 2019. Any you know, I had a credit card processing company, backed by the Jones family, called Blue Star Payments that merged in with a tech company and we rebranded Blue Star Sports. We were backed by some pretty large VC firms Bain Capital and GenStar partners and Providence Equity and then obviously, the Jones family. So we acquired about 27 companies in about three years and then we sold that company in 2017. Then I was kind of looking for the next thing and I became the chief business and legal officer for a Silicon Valley tech company for a couple of years. They were in a big money raise and it wasn't going so well and I was deferring comp. So I started looking at what I was going to do next. One of the people in my network is a ex litigation real estate litigator. She had gone on and got married, had kids, got a real estate license and had a brokerage here in Dallas and her model was she was going and convincing unhappy lawyers to get the real estate license. So she had about 10 agents slash attorneys as her brokerage and she approached me to come in and run her brokerage for kind of like I did the law firm. So that piqued my interest enough so we went down that path. Sadly we didn't get to execute our documentation because they ended up having a divorce situation. And then two weeks later COVID hits and so I'm waiting to take my real estate license and not sure what I'm going to do after that. Come out of the first 90 days of COVID, the market's red hot, so I hang my license, I start doing deals for my network friends and start marketing myself as an agent. All the meanwhile I'm looking for something to buy or to own or start, and so that led me through developer relationship here in Dallas to the ownership group of at properties out of Chicago. They made that introduction, flew up and met with them and really fell in love with not only the brand and the culture but also the technology that they had built. Chris: Amazing story. There's a lot to dive into there. I may definitely want to go back some, but let's stay with that properties for now. And yeah, so you that's a. It's born out of COVID, I guess. Tell us, though you know, because I know just from you, know keeping up with you and then reading on the website you've experienced some like amazing growth in the last, I guess, three and a half years. Let's talk a little bit about that. And in talking about what you've done that you think has helped accelerate it, let's talk also about the maybe the pains with growing so fast. Jerry: Sure. So as I was looking to own something and this opportunity came up, I negotiated to purchase, you know, the North Texas territory. But I wasn't really prepared to launch because it was just me and I hadn't done a whole lot of recruiting. But I had some real estate deals in the pipeline that I needed to leave the current brokerage I was at before I papered those up. So I ended up launching at properties by myself just one agent, and got temporary space and, you know, true entrepreneurial spirit started recruiting, putting in my support team, landed a pretty big compass team right out of the gate and that kind of helped accelerate the visibility. And so the first, you know, six months we grew to 10 agents by Christmas. So it wasn't, we weren't a big brokerage, but we were putting things in place. By the next year we were about just under 40 agents. So we had a really good, successful year and, you know, quadrupling our size and then last year 2023, we doubled again to about 80 agents in Dallas. So we've been kind of there's been some faster growth brokerages, but we're very we're considered more luxurious. Our agents are more high producing agents and they take a little longer to transfer from one brokerage to another based on their pipeline and their restrictions. So now that we're three and a half years into this and Austin's really kind of been a little bit of a catalyst in the last six months because initially that territory wasn't available there was a Christie's affiliate there my corporate partner asked me if I wanted Austin about a year and a half ago. I said yes and so I started putting the play pieces in place and we launched that in September. We've added quite a few agents in the first 120 days over 70 something agents there. So all in we got about a hundred agents in Dallas, about 70 in Austin. So that's the good side of the business. The headaches, as you know as an entrepreneur, are several and many. Too many to list, but we'll cover a few. My most recent success story is I just hired a controller after three and a half years. So I've been doing the books, reporting to corporate, paying the royalties, paying the checks, paying the agents. So those are the things. As an entrepreneur, you really you put your blood, sweat and tears into these businesses and then you have to get to a certain level, to where you could start to relieve yourself of some of these pains. Chris: Yeah, that's so true, jerry. A lot of the people that I've had on before say exactly that that it's one when you're starting out, you're not big enough to outsource it or to hire for it, so you got to do it. But then it's getting to that point when you even when you are big enough and can afford it the level of trust and hiring the right person to hand off those key aspects of the business, so it frees you up to do the things as an entrepreneur or the visionary you want to be doing. So let's talk about that. What was it that you think helps get to a level of trust and comfort that it's time to hand off and it's the right person to hand off to? Jerry: Yeah, I think, based on my background of being an entrepreneur, you make a lot of friends and you kind of know. You learn the hard way. You hire the wrong person a few times and then, as you get older and more seasoned, you kind of know what to look for. In this instance, with that properties, I hired somebody I'd known for 35 years to come in and be my director of agents. I've known her since the SMU days, so the trust was already built in and then you're just very selective as you add the pieces to the puzzle to get those right people in place. So in half years we've let one or two people go, but we've been pretty successful in hitting the mark. Chris: That's great. So 70 agents or so you said. Have you started to implement any kind of processes that help with the integration process as you bring in these new people, so they understand kind of what the expectations are, what the benefits are for making the move? I mean, so where are you and what's the process you've gone through to kind of make that more institutionalized? Jerry: So the background for at properties and the corporate support we have is pretty important in how we've gotten here. They're a 25 year brokerage. They're the eighth largest in the country before acquiring the Christie's affiliate network, so they kind of had the processes in place. So it's buying. Whenever you buy a franchise and you wanna go down this path, you kind of get a little bit of assistance from and some help along the way on someone else putting the right pieces in place. I think what we've done a great job is integrate and implement those things that they've brought to the table, which I think revolves around a lot of our culture. You know, I think culture is so important in any business you have and so it's just we have fun things called at love, local events that came from corporate. So we'll pick a merchant somewhere in our geographical area, we'll partner with them, we'll send out a marketing campaign. Let's say it's a coffee shop and then whoever shows up at that coffee shop, our agents are there and we're running a tap for a coffee or a Danish in the morning. So that's kind of the community outreach piece. We use the word love strategically in all our marketing. So we say bringing the love to Dallas, bringing the love to Frisco and those types of things. So you know, recruiting is probably once you get the, once you get your overhead stabilized and your office space and those types of things. This is a business about relationships and recruiting. So I would say our two most important people outside of myself are our head of recruiting out of Frisco, head of recruiting out of the Dallas office, and so those have been very good hires. Chris: You know most, I think most businesses. It's hard to say they're not people, businesses or relationship, but certainly you know in the business you're in, where you're so customer facing right, you need good people that can go out and attract good customers, provide good service. But I have to imagine the last 18 months or so in residential real estate hasn't been the easiest. So can you talk a little bit about what you've done to help continue, promote one, promote the culture, to keep people positive and energized while managing through what has to have been a challenging time? Jerry: Yeah, absolutely so. Obviously we're all aware of how hot the market got, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, during COVID and post COVID. What that did in our industry is everybody wanted a real estate license because they saw all these transactions happen. So we had an influx of agents that came in that are young, inexperienced, but were here to make some money. And then, when the market turns, you kind of have the reverse effect. Those people were all eat what you kill, or 10, 9, 9 commissioned agents. They got to figure out how to pay the bills, and so we've had a pretty big exodus. Probably 15 to 20% of our agents across the nation have left the industry, and so that's been good for the sense of the people staying in it because you got less competition. But the ones that stayed in it most of them, have been through some of these ebbs and flows of the market, and so they kind of know how to prepare. And most of that revolves around when your transaction desk is slower, what are you ramping up to do? Are you ramping up your marketing, your postcard, social media content, are you revamping your website? And so those are all things that we, which the agents that work for us and part of our big, strong sales pitch based on the technology that we have. Chris: Got you Speaking of that on the marketing side, you know, are you seeing? I guess, one area or the other as far as marketing strategy work better, get more visibility or more return on investment. You see so much on social media, so it seems natural that that would be one, but I don't know if that's the leading one based on your experience or not. Jerry: Yeah, I think in pretty much every industry has been affected by the internet and no industry more so than real estate. I would say probably 10 years ago you saw a lot of print ads. You saw a lot of ads and you know business journals and those types of things trying to move property. But now it's really a digital world. We're using social media, we're using tools called AdWords, which is a retargeting tool to where it's essentially like if you went and looked at a pair of shoes at Nordstroms and then you left Nordstroms, those shoes are following you around. So we have the ability to target, geo track and geo target potential prospects and clients through our technology. Obviously, websites are important. Your collaboration tools that you're preparing a search for a prospect, like they're looking in this area for a certain price point. We have the ability to set those searches up and work with a prospect or a client on finding the home, ironically in the last price. I don't know when this started, but in the last year or so, almost 85% of buyers find the home they want before they hire an agent, or at least they zero it down based on how much information is on the internet. And so, really, as an agent, what you're trying to do is bring your expertise not only to get that transaction under contract, but then most of the work happens one second transactions under contract all the way through closing. Chris: Right, that is an amazing statistic 85%, but you're right. I mean, when everyone goes to the internet first, I think, to research or validate or do something. So it makes sense to me, but it's a big number. Sounds like you know here you use your work, technology and innovation and stuff quite a bit already since we started the interview. Some of this may have come from your franchise or some may have come from some things You're doing, but what are some of the things you believe are innovative in the way that you're operating the brokerage and helping your agents be successful? Jerry: Sure. So I think when you start understanding what different brokerages bring to the table in regards to support for their agent portfolio. Obviously marketing is a big one because they're pushing all the stuff out that we're talking about, but also the day-to-day operation of an agent is pretty important. Most brokerages large brokerages like Coldwell, banker, some of your biggest national brands are very antiquated when it comes to technology support. I would say there's two brokerages at the forefront. I'd say Compass is in second place and I think App Properties is in first place. And I say that because we've been building a technology stack called Platform, or our franchise or has, since 2003 and basically an agent logs in and does everything they need to do as an agent in one technology. When I interview agents and I show them the technology, they're blown away because they're in four or five, six different technologies throughout the day trying to get their social media posted or created, their transactions done over here, their docuSigns another technology they have to use, and we have everything in one place, and so that's been a real big selling point for us when we're recruiting these agents. Chris: Yeah, I mean anything to make your employees or, in your case, I guess, your contractor's life easier. Have you started to look into, or is this already incorporating any kind of versions of AI? Jerry: AI is already integrated. Nowadays, agents are always doing, as an easy example, they're doing descriptions of the properties. So now you can lean on AI to help you describe a $5 million house with five bedrooms, six baths by describing it into AI, and then it'll help you create that luxury description. So there's things like that. Obviously, our CRM has a lot of AI tied to it and so, yeah, that's the way of the future and it's getting more and more integrated and implemented into all our tools. Very nice, very nice yeah. Chris: All right. So I want to make you kind of reflect back. So yeah, this about, by your own description, not the first time you kind of started a new venture or stepped outside your comfort zone. So when you think about what you did I guess leaving, you know, maybe leaving the law firm or even some of the ventures you started while you were there, but going to credit card processing et cetera where are some of the lessons you learn through those ventures that you think prepared you for taking the step you did without properties and the steps you're taking now to grow so rapidly? Jerry: Yeah, I think if you're a serial entrepreneur like myself, I think the one thing you learn each time that you have an idea or you go down the path of starting something is you think you're going to get to the finish line a lot easier. It's your idea and you think you're going to do that. And I think probably in every instance including the law firm, including the credit card processing is one lesson is it just takes a lot to probably 10 times, 100 times more man hours and work and you got hurdles. That you're not expecting. But I think that's part of the reward too is why I'm built the way I am. You enjoy that when an obstacle comes and you get your way around it or over it. But I think you know frankly, it's probably what every entrepreneur says it's never as easy as you think it is. There's no get rich. You know we talked about most of what we do as lawyers and what I'm doing is a people game. You know you're hiring people and people disappoint, you know, and you're having to find different people sometimes, and so the lesson is just pride and expect the unexpected and you'll be okay and be able to sleep at night. Chris: I like that. Well, think about, is there a kind of a challenge or a failure setback that you can point to over the last, you know, 15 years, 20 years, whatever that you feel is maybe in some ways either a defining moment for you or one of the bigger learning moments that you got? You kind of got hit with a little headwind but you overcame it and because of that it's kind of helped propel you either in your own personal journey as a leader or, you know, in things you learned as an entrepreneur. Jerry: Yeah, I'd say you know, probably the biggest lesson learned of all time was me starting a real estate development company with a home builder and a commercial partner and, you know, diving into that with not a whole lot of experience, and so the challenge was obviously, in real estate, you're hoping to build something and sell it, and so the big challenges is if you build it and you borrow a bunch of money and you don't sell it. And so in 0809, 2010 is probably should have been my premier happiest days of my life. I'm on a law firm, I'm making some good you know coin on the law firm side, but I'm literally getting dragged through the mud financially on the real estate piece, and it's probably one of the reasons it's taken me 10 years to get back into it on the brokerage side, because I literally came out of that was some financial PSD. You know just could not sleep, you know got I mean health issues, depression, pretty much everything you can experience as an entrepreneur and so you figure out a lot about yourself when you're going through something like that, and you know you either stay in bed and talk about it or you pull up your socks and get out and try it again. Chris: That internal fortitude, you know I think any entrepreneurs got to have that or it's just not going to happen. I appreciate you sharing that. Were there some things that you did? You know that you know other than just I mean pure gutted out. You know, to help you kind of get through that. You know, leaning on family friends, I don't know. I mean I have to believe we've got some listeners and other people out there that you're going through the same thing. Jerry: Sure, I think where I lucked out was, you know, just to be frank, I was on about $60 million and personally guaranteed debt that was worth probably about 30 by the time I was trying to get out of it. So there wasn't going to be any family help. It was. It was hey with you, you know, in a loving way, of course. But when you dig a hole like that, you just got to figure out the best way out. And for me, where I benefited was I had a law degree and I was a lawyer and creditors could not touch the ownership interest in my law firm because it was tied to my license. So, through bankruptcy lawyers and all that stuff, I got educated on that and gave me the strategy to get through that situation and come out on the other end, which was one of the reasons I sold the interest of the law firm back to the partners, because that allowed me to have a little bit of a stream of income there in 2012, 13 and 14, while I got the credit card processing company going and getting these other things going. So there was, if there was, a silver lining, it was that fact, but it was still still pretty embarrassing financially and pretty embarrassing as a professional to really go through that over a three or four year period. Chris: You got to be hard but, like I said, I mean now that you've come through it, you know you can certainly appreciate the opportunities you have today and know that. You know I certainly probably learned some lessons of what to not do, going forward right. Jerry: Absolutely, I would say. The one lesson you learn in that scenario is you become a lot more frugal with your financial decisions and you know, especially in the banking industry, like one thing I'm proud of with that properties is we've never bought a bar to dollar. We got zero debt, and so those that's a probably a direct result of what I went through, you know, 15 years ago was I don't want to do another business where I got a bunch of debt and I'm trying to get that off and make money to live off of. Chris: That's great. So you mentioned earlier I think it was a credit card processing BlueStar, where you had some dealings with Bain Capital, and obviously you're dealing with a franchise or in this current business. So let's talk a little bit about maybe what you've learned through that. I kind of relate or maybe call those you know investors, partners, strategic partners. What have you learned as kind of some of the best ways to deal with them so you keep that relationship strong and healthy? And maybe it's something you know that happened that you're like I did this or they did. You know something that happened that soured the relationship, one they got to help our clients here at the firm you know, you know find themselves in those situations all the time, and so I'm curious you know what you know, what lessons you've learned through that process? Jerry: Yeah, so I would say getting involved in. And so when we had the credit card processing company, it was pretty a pretty simple model. We were going out and you know recruiting or or you know we're trying to sell merchants, you know restaurants Anybody who ran a credit card was it was a prospective client approached by a group who had an idea of buying up these technology companies in the youth sports space. So like, if you sign your kid up for soccer, you're there's usually a form and at the end of that form, whether it be the YMCA or anywhere else, you're paying a fee for your child to play that on that soccer team. So the model we had was take the credit card processing that we had built our own API and those types of things and bake it into a technology and go buy these companies. And interestingly, it was about how do you flip the model from a EBITDA and a multiple perspective. So these tech companies that weren't that large of companies because they were kind of geographically located, running different types of youth sports camps or whatnot, they weren't sophisticated enough and they were usually outsourcing their credit card processing to stripe or squares or something like that. So we would acquire these companies and bake in our own processing and from an ownership perspective, then that would change the multiple for maybe two times to 12 times because you have that reoccurring revenue stream coming into your business model. I literally probably learned more over that. First, 12 to 20 per month as we were acquiring these companies, doing due diligence on them, and I was the chief legal officer of the company, so I was in charge of all the due diligence. So we acquired 20 something companies and I bet I did due diligence on about 300 over two years. But it was really cool because I got to see what investors and power players in the venture capital market, how they looked at things and it's there's not a lot of emotion, it's numbers on paper and it's how do we make, how do we do this to this group of businesses, and then how do we sell it and make money. All about the return on investment, right. Chris: Exactly so. It's a. Jerry: It's very cutthroat which some businesses are, some aren't, but it was a great learning experience. I'd like to say I probably learned more in that two to three years Dealing with those big VC firms and listening to those meetings and kind of running point on due diligence than I probably learned in any other aspect of my life. Now, that's so, but that's so. Chris: Let's turn it back a little bit to app properties specifically. I know you've recently launched a new sports and entertainment division Tell us about that. What's going on behind that and what are you trying to accomplish so in the real estate brokerage? Jerry: world. There's different ways to market yourself right, and a lot of that boils down to your experience of your agent portfolio, and so some real estate brokerages are residential, some may just be commercial, but on our side we have, we've accumulated some agents that allowed us to create these divisions because of their experience levels. So land and ranch is one division, and then sports and entertainment is another division, and basically there's some criteria that we've put in place before an agent can say they're part of that team or that division dealing with professional athletes or celebrities on a number of occasions, some of the qualifications, but essentially, when somebody's moving like a professional athlete or a celebrity, there's a lot of sensitivity to that, or there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot more moving pieces, and so that specific division has agents who are, you know, experts in helping that transaction or that client Get from point A to B and solve a lot of problems along the way how to move their cars, how to move their kids into new schools, you know everything that comes along with kind of that type of transaction, as opposed to someone just buying a house and selling a house. So are we going to see? Chris: Super Bowl ads anytime soon, if I can at homecom I could afford it. Jerry: No, that's the goal is. We're really good because of how the clients affiliate network has come into play for us. I don't know if we mentioned this before the call or on the call, but you know our corporate partner ended up buying the Christie's affiliate network, which is a network of independently owned brokerages around the world. I think we have 900 offices in 54 countries, about 35,000 agents, and the reason Christie's the auction house, christie's the family who's owned that brand and that company for two hundred years. They sold the app properties because of the technology and we've been for two years bringing a worldwide global powerhouse network together into the technology to share referrals and data and information, and so that's been one of the one of the real keys to some credibility for us. Very cool. Chris: I think you just launched something else, maybe in the last week. Developer services Tell us about that. Jerry: So so again, we all know there's developers out here but we're not sure there's developers out here building multifamily building, you know, developing neighborhoods, multi-use, and so for a brokerage our size to have the ability to provide those services was kind of hard. So we ended up meeting a group of people out of Austin who came from Storybill and for those listeners who've heard about Storybill, that's a multi-billion dollar developer who went, ran out of money last summer. But we ended up negotiating their entire creative team to come over to Christie, our Christie's, and create this development services division. So starting with the chief marketing officer all the way down to their website development team, their on-site sales, so we've got a team of about 12 of superstars and they really fell in love with the Christie's brand to kind of move from Storybill into our umbrella, to kind of push those services out. So that'll be a huge win for us. Chris: So, as you sit there running all this, what is it that kind of triggers for you that this is an opportunity that makes sense, because not everybody can see that, and so there are things you're looking for. How do you go about making that decision and taking on the risk? Jerry: Yeah, so risk is a little less scary in our business because most everybody who works for our brokerage is a 1099 contractor. So we really have a pretty lean machine when it comes to we're running this right now with about seven full-time employees, three offices, so you got overhead from an office space perspective, but really you're kind of it's kind of a lean business model, which is one of the things that attracted me to it. And then obviously you have to have the people to be able to promote these different levels of services. So I think the thing that's been lucky for us is one our relationship and our network in Dallas to help get it started. And then obviously the people we've been able to add at such a young infancy of a company have given us the credibility and the numbers are reflecting that. Chris: Gotcha. So before I don't want to wrap this up without talking a little bit just about you and your leadership style, let's talk. You know, how would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's evolved over time based on the scars and other lessons learned? Jerry: You know you work at a law firm, so you know running a law firm is you got a lot of smart people, a lot of egos, a lot of staff, a lot of overhead, and so I learned a lot about you know the operational side of a business in that seat. And then I think my ownership style has probably changed completely since I left the law firm. I'm a lot more interested in the well-being of my employees, a lot more sensitive to the culture. I think. When you talk about people coming to work and going home, in my mindset now I want that to be a great experience. I kind of use the word experience a lot in the last couple of years for some reason, and I think it's just. My evolution is like everything in our lives is an experience and you can make it a good one or you can make it a bad one, and so I think my leadership style is I want every experience to be a good one. At the best I can make it. Obviously you're going to have your headaches and your issues pop up, but we have the music on in our offices every day. We have happy hours on Thursdays. We built bars in both of our offices in Dallas and Frisco, and then we're putting one in our location in Austin so that we can have happy hours with our agents and our clients and our prospects. We hold a lot of events and I think our interaction with the community and the philanthropic stuff that we're doing is really cool. So I think where I've gotten is you know I'm 54 now and you know I started that law firm at 28 and I had a whole different picture in my mind at 28, right Till 35, of what life was going to be for me, and now I'm kind of trying to enjoy it a lot more. Chris: I love that man. Happy for you. You know clearly you're on the right track and couldn't agree more about how important culture is to any company. And I think I've said similar to you. I think life is about experiences. I think they're only really down to learning experiences good experiences and learning experiences as though, rather than bad, just learn from them and don't repeat them. Jerry: Yeah exactly right. Chris: So let's turn a little bit on the personal side of things and not as serious. What was your first job? Jerry: First job, I was a clerk in a law firm. Chris: Okay. Jerry: I was working in law school. Okay, my first job in high school. Like most of us, I grew up in Missouri in a small town. I had a yard. You know service with my best friend and we had our lawn mowers in the back of his truck and we mowed yards. So that was probably my first experience as a having a job. There you go, and first is an entrepreneur was leaving a 250 person firm to start a law firm with two other guys and being 28 years old and that was pretty exciting. We had metal chairs and you know fold up conference room table and laid out of the movie. Chris: Love it. Well, I can relate to the a little bit to that, but definitely relate to the mowing yards. That's what buddy of mine and I did in high school. So you know good money then I guess. Okay, personal preference, tex-mex or barbecue? Well, that's a tough one Probably barbecue. All right. And if you could, take a 30 day sabbatical. Where would you go? What would you do? Jerry: You know, this is my two sons who are a senior and sophomore at University of Texas right now. They called a year ago about this time and said, dad, we're going to go to Japan. And I was like, okay, and they got on a plane, just the two of them went to Japan for three weeks and after hearing that I kind of want to do that. Chris: How cool is that. The two of us went and did it on their own. Jerry: They did it on their own, traveled around on trains and backpack and love it. They're experienced when they told the stories and went through the pictures. I mean it's just a really cool culture. I'd like to go experience that. Chris: Okay, jerry, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to come on. It's hard to believe that you know I don't. I might add the numbers we met at SMU and, as undergraduates, went to law school together, so we had a lot of years together. So it's great to see where you are today and what you're doing. So proud of you. Jerry: Man. I appreciate that. And the same back at you. I followed you your whole career and super, super proud of you. What kind of legal person you are and lawyer and leader and everything you're about. So appreciate having me on and proud of you too, my man. Chris: All right, we'll do it again. We'll find a reason to do it again sometime soon. Awesome Sounds good. Special Guest: Jerry Mooty.

Sam - Does the church have a teaching about the laying of hands by lay people? (7:25) Chris - How should I interpret some of the things going on in the Church? Like the blessing of same sex couples and the blessing of the African Bishops because of their Culture? (16:26) Break 1 Kate - I've had people tell me not to tell my catechism students that missing mass is a mortal sin. Is this something I should stress to my students or just not tell them. Marie - Don't know if you saw the news but Paul McCartney got his stolen guitar back. (32:20) Break 2 Lupe - When there has been a desecration in a church, is it safe to go to that church? (36:15) Daniel - Could you talk about nuclear weapons? If other countries have them, is it alright for us to have them? Marion - 22:90 in catechism the virtue of temperance - anyone who takes a risk of others' lives incurs great guilt - is speeding a mortal sin? Bill - after being translated so many times how do we know that what we are reading in the bible is true or the real translation? Mike - Our son and his wife are trying to have kids and every natural means has failed and they are going to try IVF - I told him that's not correct. If they have a child out of IVF would that child be created out of love?

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, fashion entrepreneur Elaine Turner is joining us to talk about her journey of launching Edit by Elaine Turner, her luxury boutique that emphasizes mindful consumption. She shares her experiences navigating the challenging retail industry and lessons from her previous ventures. Elaine gives advice on balancing your brand identity and adapting to changing customer expectations. Her stories highlight the difficulties of expanding business plans and finding community resonance. She also shares her views on building teams that align with the brand spirit, which can be valuable for entrepreneurs. Toward the end of the discussion, Elaine reflects on her personal experiences of living in Houston and Santa Fe. Elaine's gratitude for the hard-won lessons makes her a role model for navigating the industry's turbulence with empathy, vision, and agility. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Elaine shares her experience with Edit by Elaine Turner, a Houston boutique offering curated European luxury brands, emphasizing mindful consumption and the art of editing in fashion. We discuss Elaine's background in entrepreneurship within her family, her early interest in fashion, and the influence of her parents and mentors on her career. Elaine describes the lessons learned from launching a luxury line that failed, the importance of understanding brand identity, and the value of knowing your core customer base. Chris touches on the challenge of balancing novelty with accessibility in fashion and the pitfalls of expanding too quickly. We explore the importance of community focus in retail and the critical role of hiring team members who align with the brand's culture. Elaine recounts the transition from brick-and-mortar to digital commerce, noting the surprising speed of change and the recent shift back to a balance between digital and physical storefronts. Chris and Elaine discuss agile leadership, the importance of empathy, and the necessity of adapting to the needs of the workforce in the retail industry. Elaine reflects on personal transformation, the process of starting a second business, and the evolution of relationships during life's challenging phases. We chat about Elaine's personal side, including her preference for Tex-Mex over barbecue and her dream retreat to Santa Fe. Elaine shares her gratitude and excitement for her new venture, Edit by Elaine Turner, and the journey of crafting a life filled with purpose and passion. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Edit by Elaine Turner GUESTS Elaine TurnerAbout Elaine TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Elaine Turner, founder of Edit by Elaine Turner and Elaine Turner Designs. Elaine's entrepreneurial passion centers around fashion and lifestyle brands, but her true passions are serving her community and empowering and supporting women through education, connection and philanthropy. Alright, let's get going. I cannot wait for this episode. I'm so excited to have Elaine Turner here. Elaine, thanks for joining me today. Elaine: I love being here. Thanks for having me. Chris: One of the things I love about you is that you are a serial entrepreneur, and I think those are my favorite people to talk to. Let's talk about what you're doing today with Edit by Elaine Turner. Tell us what that is. Elaine: I just opened a new store concept here in Houston, in Tanglewood, and the store is called Edit by Elaine Turner. Really, the whole idea of the store was concepted from a place of renewal and redemption, because we can talk about my story beforehand. But it was all about this idea of curating hard to find European luxury, upscale brands for the Houston clientele who I felt like the art of discovery, like what else? She goes to Tutsis and she goes to Neemans and Saks and Nordstroms and we're lucky we live in this incredible cosmopolitan city full of all the options. But I wanted to offer her something that maybe wasn't so out there and so ubiquitous. Edit was really born from the art of creation. I will be your editor and I will go out and find these really unique pieces for you to engage in and add to your wardrobe. Chris: That's great. Elaine: There's actually some real meaning behind the word edit, then right, yes, so edit is about not only let me edit for you and find those unique, hard to find pieces, but it's also about, for me personally, sort of leaning into this idea of, as women and as consumers, we only ultimately need what's essential. And I think, as we age and we become more mindful about what we put on our bodies, what we put in our bodies, that it's not always about quantity, right, we don't have to buy, like you know, every trend that's ever offered to us. Like we can be more thoughtful about what we choose. And so it's about letting go of the unnecessary and really retaining what's of value to you, and so edit is supposed to be all about that. Like I'm saying, this is what's of quality to you. Chris: I love that. I love the thought behind it. Thank you, because you're right, you can go into any store and get stuff, so this is one. This is an episode where I'm like there's so many different directions to go with you, but I think you're right. You talked about renewal and redemption. You have an amazing story because this is your second go at it. Elaine: And the first was successful. Chris: Sometimes people second goes coming out of failure. Let's talk about your passion and what got you into the kind of the fashion industry. Talk a little bit about that first venture. I think in doing that I encourage you to start what was called a Lane Turner or Lane Turner designs back in what, 1999 to 2000. Yeah, exactly 20, almost 24 years ago. A while ago, chris, you must have been an infant. Elaine: I was 29 or 30 when I started a Lane Turner designs and really my story really comes from an origin story of entrepreneurship. That's the number one thing. I was born in a family of entrepreneurs and I'm kind of a believer that entrepreneurship is sort of passed on through DNA. I think you've got to be a little left of center to engage in being an entrepreneur, because it's high risk, you kind of, it's lonely. You know you're the one kind of putting yourself out there thinking of these ideas and visions and you're usually entrepreneurs are trying to solve problems, so they're thinking, hey, what's not out there that could be out there? And I watched both of my parents start companies and both of my siblings also at one time had their own companies, and so I feel like for me it was sort of osmosis. You know, I was very much inspired by my parents. They were my mentors growing up and so I always knew when I went to school, went to UT and I majored in advertising, marketing, but I always knew I wanted to do something in fashion because my mother always encouraged. You know, this is how you express yourself. And it was always done from a more thoughtful, deep way and I was like I'm not saying, not just fashion, you know, because of materialism. But she would literally watch me walk downstairs and say, oh, you have a gift. Like you should really think about something in fashion, Like this is the art of communication. Chris: She wasn't one of those moms that looked at you and goes you're not wearing that. Elaine: Yeah Well, maybe a couple of times. You know it's an evolution, Chris. I'm not saying that I came out of the gate putting all the outfits together, right, but she always encouraged me on a much deeper level that I think this is something that you should offer the world. You know, Even in my teens and my twenties I knew I wanted to do something in fashion, and so I went to UT and then I immediately called a mentor of mine. Joanne Burnett and said I really want to do something in the fashion industry. And she said, hey, there's this company out of Dallas you should talk to and they might give you kind of an assistant job in the design area or whatever. And so it just was a super, you know, very organic growth for me. Back when I was at UT there was no fashion merchandising program, so that was in it. So I had to learn everything in the job, you know, on the job, and have like mentors train me Right, but always knowing I wanted to start my own thing. Okay, and that was always there. It didn't really happen Like some people say. That sort of happened by happenstance. For me it was pretty intentional that I knew in my twenties I wanted to learn everything and then I wanted to start my own business. Chris: So I hear that story a lot, but you also hear the ones where, like you said, there's a problem to solve and someone says, okay, I'll do this. Let's talk about taking you back to that 28 to 29 year old self when you said, okay, now it's time. Some people are scared to take that step. Let's talk about and educate the audience. What was it like for you to get to the point where you're ready to take this risk? What was that like? What did you learn from that experience? Elaine: Yeah, I mean it's a great question. I think I knew when I was 29, I had learned a lot in New York. I went from Dallas to New York and worked for several companies in New York and I started recognizing in the market that accessories were really taking a much bigger, I would say, segment of the market. So, like the big designers at the time, like Donna Karen and Ralph Lauren and all that they were starting to do these handbag collections or accessory collections right when they were really starting to kind of form a look and a name for themselves in that area. And Kate Spade was just coming on the scene and I thought, oh, there's something there that I think that there was a void that I could fill like an accessible price point, and I really focused on novelty applications. So I was really known for this resort wear look where I did Raffia rat bags and tortoise shell handles and I did a lot of specialty leathers like Python leather leathers with multi-colored. So a lot of novelty right. Chris: From. Elaine: Texas, of color and bold, and so I started thinking to myself well, what if I did a small handbag collection and put it out in the market? And I really thought about my price point because I wanted it to be accessible luxury price point and started to see if I could sell my wares. You know, and I had just moved back from New York to Houston and my first literally I have this memory my first account was walking into Titsies and Mickey Rosemary and meeting with me in private and saying I'll carry all your collection on consignment for the first six months and if it does well, then I'll start buying it. Wow. So I said it's a deal and that was how I started. And the bags were made in Brooklyn and he really mentored me on price and segmentation of the market and who you're catering to and the look and feel of the bags, and he was a huge part of why the company grew, because he really helped me understand, I think, from a little bit more of a mass perspective, how to grow the business and not keep it so boutique, right, Right. Chris: How to be able to scale to it. Elaine: Exactly, and then I was able to get into Neiman Sax and Nordstrom and started growing a really large business from there. Chris: So okay, as you got this fashion mind and creative mind, I mean, what were some of the things that you had to learn to grow that business to scale? Let's talk about that. I mean, and if you think about something like a failure man that went horrible, it went horribly wrong but by gosh, I'm glad it did because I learned so much. Elaine: Many failures and challenges and opportunities along the way. But I mean, I think that what I learned is the idea was really about offering sort of this accessible lady like elegant accessory line to women who I felt like that wasn't really happening like. As much as I loved Kate's bag, it was very basic at the time. It was like nylon little shopper bags, right. Chris: No offense Kate. Elaine: We love Kate, but now it's very novelty. So we all evolved, but at that time, yeah at that time it was just this really simple kind of utilitarian shopper bag. So I felt like I had a niche and like let's add novelty into the handbag space and the handbags were really becoming this sort of individualistic part of fashion. It's like, you know, wear a dark suit but what's the special handbag that just pops off? You Like what makes it almost that final touch. And so, for me, the challenges. I think what I learned is okay how do I retain the novelty and the specialty part, retain the price, keep the price where it needs to be, but also have a product that is appealing to a lot of women? Because I was growing scale, I mean I was like I want to open stores, I want to be in wholesale. I mean I had my own New York showroom and so some of the challenges, like an example was I decided to spin off and do a real high end more I don't know coutures, not the right line, but a real high end luxury line in Italy, but to keep my more accessible. So, like the bags were in from like 195 to 500. Chris: That was kind of where I saw it. Elaine: Well then I thought let me go off and try these $1,000 bags. Well, it ended up being a huge flop, which is okay. But I realized that by doing that I grew too fast and I was trying to appeal to a different customer too quickly before the brand had really penetrated and distributed distribution enough in those places. So it was like I jumped the gun and then I don't think I had exhausted the price point that I was in. So that was one failure or challenge that I kind of pulled back on and thought well, I think I did that too soon because you know it's a big investment, you're investing in real Python lovers and you're doing it in Italy and these little family and factories. But you learn from it. You know. You learn like no, go back to your core, don't get away from it so quickly. But you know. Chris: That's to me, what's so fascinating is getting back, you know, staying and knowing your core, because the story you just told I've heard told in many different industries, right, so it is applicable across industries. So, you kind of confused the identity of the company. Elaine: Yes, yes, that's exactly right. Chris: And you have to be careful as an entrepreneur. Be careful not to do that and if you're going to make sure you know. I think it's a delicate thing to do and it's interesting that it can happen in any industry. So right in the handbag and fashion, you can dilute that core customer who's so loyal to you. Elaine: And I think what happens with entrepreneurs that we all fall a little bit victim to and I think speaking someone might relate to this is that you're constantly thinking of the next thing because that's just you're always feeling that void will like that. I don't see enough of that. At that price point let's make it ourselves, and sometimes those ideas and that vision can get ahead of you, and then you have to be able to pivot and save yourself. Wait a minute, I think I jumped too quickly because entrepreneurism is really about creation or vision and filling the void and solving the. But sometimes you can almost go so far that you go too fast. Chris: How did you regulate yourself in? That was it? Was it surrounding yourself with, with the team? Was it just learning from trial and error? You go and I need to learn what I need to pump the brakes. Elaine: I mean it's a combination. I was lucky. I've been very blessed. My husband's always been a deep, strong partner to me and he helped me with. At first he didn't really get involved. He ended up full-time working with me in the business about after seven years of me being in business and then he started really helping me. But he was always a more cautious one to be like let's just, let's really exhaust what we're doing right now, but then seemed to have a really deep understanding of timing, of like. For example, I got into the shoe business and I was really nervous about that after what happened with the high-end collection and the shoe business did incredible for me and in fact I think if you talk to women today, that was really the category that they were the most wedded to so it, but it was the timing. I had enough, you know. I had enough brand awareness. I had multiple stores at the time. She was the loyalty and also the trust was built up at that time, whereas when I jumped to the real high-end bags I don't think I was quite there yet. So a lot of things are timing. You know when to be. You know you have to be really thoughtful about when you do big expansion moves, and I think the shoes happened at just the right time that she was ready for that. Chris: Yeah, a lot of it is timing right. Let's go back kind of the high-end handbag. So another thing that's hard for people, especially entrepreneurs, to do is to kind of admit that failure. How hard and what and what good advice would you give to say you got to know when, and it's okay, cut it and say this just wasn't, this didn't work, whatever it may be. Elaine: I think it's some one of the most important things you can do being a business owner and I mean honestly just being in business at a certain level is to know when to look in the mirror, be accountable and look at it not as a failure but as a huge opportunity for growth. And also, when that stuff happens and it's happened to me multiple times it also models for the people before you that it's okay. It's okay to go. You know this worked, this didn't, so how do we get out of this in the most thoughtful way? Also, the less you know the way, economically that doesn't hurt us as badly, but it having that courage to know when to sell, when to get out of a lease, when to liquidate a product that didn't sell. You know, those are all just parts of being in business, and I think what happens with people who end up really struggling as their egos become so involved and the pride takes over that they aren't willing to take a step back and say this doesn't mean I failed. This means that I have an opportunity to change something that didn't go as expected. Yeah, and that's also personal, like forget business how about marriages and friendships and relationships and how we navigate the earth. I mean, sometimes we just gotta look in the mirror and say we gotta redefine this yeah and that's actually a beautiful thing, and it's to me like winning in life. It's not failure. Chris: I agree. I mean, I think it's a mindset, and so I say all the time no bad experiences, just learning experiences that's it. Elaine: I'm inspired. Yes, that's it. I think we you could have answered the question okay so you have this going. Chris: You expand the shoes, you have stores that took people. So how did you build a team and how would you, when you look back, how? How would you verbalize and describe the culture that you built at a length turn? That's such a nice. Elaine: I love. Well, I loved all of that and I especially loved the culture and the brick and mortar aspect. I think that we spent so much time and energy focusing on the community and we had we're I like to say we were one of the first retailers in Texas to build a charity platform within our brick and mortar where we had an event-based charity platform. So each month we would hold several events and team up with charities and sort of have a win situation where we donate a certain amount of proceeds and then they get to experience Elaine Turner and what we're making and creating. And you know and today you see it across the board, with Tori Burch as a women's foundation and Kendra Scott has a huge event platform. But it was something that the brick and mortar stores were really an integrated, intimate experience with the community and it meant that's probably one of the biggest things that I take away that I'm the most proud of, is what I created within those stores. I really created a place for women to connect one with one another, to educate one another, to inspire one another and to give back to the community. Chris: Yeah, so it's beautiful, but it takes more than you if it's going to transcend right into the different brick and mortar locations because you can't be everywhere all the same time and I didn't know so what were some of the? Things that you did as you hired, whether it was store managers or you know, whatever your involvement was, to make sure that the people you were hiring connected with that vision and that passion. Elaine: It's. You know, hiring your team is the most foundational, essential part of how you win as an entrepreneur and it's not easy and sometimes even within that you make mistakes and vice-over I'm talking like that person might make a mistake that they even chose to come work for me. And then I realize that when the right fit on our side, it's very reciprocal. There's no one that's above anybody else, it's just sometimes the fit's not there. But we had become so well versed in who we were culturally that we were all about you know intimate experience. Giving back fun. Luxury was one of our big. We're all about having fun, it's not. We don't take ourselves too seriously. You don't have to wait in some line where there's a you know bouncer. You don't have to act like we're not too exclusive for you. We are an enveloping culture. And so it became where we actually and I'm saying at the beginning there were some probably bumpy roads, especially as we started getting into retail, but as we really started building this store footprint across Texas, we got pretty good at those managers and had really low turnover. You know where we really built and we had a store director who had come from Michael Kors who really understood how to build that team culture. But I mean, some of my most prized employees at the time were the people who are running those stores. They just got it, you know, and then sometimes it didn't, and that's okay too. Chris: It is. I mean, you're hiring is an imperfect process, right, and I think, but if you have a core identity that you know and you'll know when there's a fit and when there's not, exactly. And then the key is if it's not a fit to move fast. Elaine: Yeah, and they've all gone on. I mean it's just interesting you've asked me this question because we're going pretty personal. But you know, as I was launching edit, I started looking for some of my older leaders that I loved and they, I mean I look at my head and I'm like, oh, they're running. One's running Carolina Herrera here in Houston. Another one's store, director of Kate Spade, another that Jim's like well, we, you know, help to give them that foundation and that's awesome. But I mean nothing makes me feel better about myself to see some of those women soar in the retail space like a proud parent right yeah, and beautiful people. Chris: So that's good, that's so good. So as you ran the company, I know you got to a point where you decided it was kind of time to put things down. Yes, and you the original a late turn. You closed over a period of time. That had to be a pretty difficult decision, an emotional decision, because it was born out of passion right, it was very people come to those, you know, face those roadblocks or those forks in the road. You know how did you go about kind of handling that and then coming to grips that it was okay. Elaine: I mean, I think, just like anything, it's been a journey to get to the acceptance, or for me to find that acceptance, around that initial a lane turner designs journey. But there was a lot of things it wasn't an overnight thing that were leading up to me realizing that I needed to hit button in my life. And just like anything else, chris, it's never just usually one thing, it's usually a series of things. You know, I mean it's kind of morbid, but they always say, like a plane crash doesn't just happen with one wheel falling off, it's usually a series of things and at the time you know that's been almost six years retail had really shifted dramatically from more of a brick and mortar clientele experience to kind of the Amazon age being very real, which is all about ease and convenience, right and so, and then I'm always very transparent and vulnerable about my business. The capital was really put into the brick and mortar experience and I was behind on the digital aspects. I was, and that you know. That's just. I can totally admit that today. It wasn't that I didn't have it, but I didn't have it near like some of my competitors had it right and so I had to really come to grips with that reality that the store traffic had started to dwindle and women were really calling for the digital experience and saying, look, I don't want to find parking at your store, I don't want to do that anymore. I'm really moving into this idea that the package has dropped, I can return it and put a sticker on it, and so my husband and I were just sort of playing catch up. And then, alongside that challenge, which was immense, I personally have an autistic daughter who was also reaching teen tween age and starting to really have a deep awareness of her differences and struggling mental health wise, so I needed to find out how I could intervene and get her in a better place. And then both of my parents were diagnosed with terminal illnesses at the same time oh, wow and that's when I said okay, god, like I hear you, I get you and I'm not a failure. I need to change my life and I have, and I took those years to caretake and get people what they needed, because, even though I'm a passionate business person, I am a very driven, very ambitious. I am also just as passionate and just as I mean it's my whole life or my is my family, yeah, and so I knew that at that time I couldn't just be everything I I couldn't do it all at the same time. I realized I couldn't be and do it all at the same time, but that was okay that you know it's a beautiful story. Chris: I know there those things aren't fun to go through. I'm so sorry here, but they're seasons in life, right, and I think you know one of the. There's always lessons in every story and there's a lesson in what you just said to me and that is as passionate as you are about your business keep your priorities straight yeah, family always comes first, yeah and you're right, it didn't define who you were to shut the store down right. So that's you know it's a beautiful thing and I'm sure it was hard to go through yeah, I want to take you back to something you said because I think there is some learning in and I always have a question for you because you said look, I realized I was behind in the digital right. I was in the brick and mortar. When you look back at that, was that a function of you just truly believed brick and mortar was the way to go and this digital was a flash in the pan? Or do you think you miscalculated the digital presence and how it was really going to affect the industry and change the industry? Elaine: It was not at all discounting digital. I had a very built up website, three full-time employees who worked on my end, so it was honoring that digital was real. I had no idea how quickly the digital consumer you know landscape would shift. It was one of the most massive market shifts, I think if you've studied it. Chris: Yeah. Elaine: That's ever happened. It happened so fast. I mean, the Amazon age is real. It just took over business. It was just all of a sudden you're buying on this interface and you're not walking into stores as much and it was happened so fast. I remember my husband was like we've got to hire more digital people when we started hiring him. But as quickly as we'd hire him, it was just like our competitors were starting to offer, you know, free returns, all this stuff, like you will just come pick it up for you. Like it was, just became like. It was literally the way people were doing business and I just had no idea how quickly. I thought it would just seamlessly fit into the brick and mortar footprint. Yeah, it took over. I mean, women were like, well, just ship it to me, even just living. Like you live right here, I live over in Tanglewood, like you're you know you're saying no, you need to ship it to me, like even today I saw. Chris: Sitting at your yeah, you know, in your kitchen. I'm not coming, right, I'm not coming yet. I don't think you're dressed up, I'm not. So In hour two you're returning. Elaine: Yeah, so even our Houston base, which is our Houston Dallas our largest they were ordering on my website online and not coming in anymore, but I still wasn't able to provide the type of service that I think they were used to, even online. I was struggling to keep up with that, but what's interesting is how things come around in life, is I think there's been a real balance now? I think that's a little bit over. I think digital is still a value and I know you ordered lots of Christmas presents online. Chris: Almost all. Elaine: Right, but I still think brick and mortar now has eased back into people wanting more human interaction and tangible experience of product, especially luxury product. Yeah, I think people still want that. Chris: That's. What is funny is that I tell people the story. They've seen it in Holly's, my two girls. They create, like these, powerpoint presentations with pictures of their Christmas list with hyperlinks to the website. So yes, I did a lot of all of them. Elaine: I love hyperlinks to the website, but the higher end things. Chris: I didn't have to go to the store for a few things. So there you go. I'm a living example of what you just said. Elaine: Okay, Good, because there is a place for brick and mortar and for human interaction and human connection and educating them on product and servicing them. Tell me where you're going, tell me about you know what you need, and I think that's all finding much more of a balance now than it was six years ago. Chris: Yeah, yeah so let's talk a little bit about you as a leader. How would you define your leadership style and how did you try to show up? You know, in that 20-something year you were running a line Turner as a leader. Elaine: I think my biggest gift as a leader is I think I'm a very empathic person. I so I'm very committed to putting myself in somebody else's shoes and I think that's helped me especially lead women, because my 99% of my employees were women, and women hold a very complex position in society because of the roles and responsibilities that we have and the opportunities that we now have and the dual income families that we're creating, and so women are holding a lot of hats and are trying to be in due for a lot of people in their life. I like to call it the impossible paradigm Right. So I think that I held space for that and I think that when I look back as a leader, I hopefully felt like most of the people who work for me knew that they could pretty much come in and be vulnerable with me about what they could and could not do within the role that they had at my company. I also think that I'm a. I think I have vision. I don't want to like be arrogant, so I'm a visionary, but I think I have a lot of vision so I can look at things really high level and not get so in the weeds where we forget what we're doing as a company and what we're providing. So I'm very passionate about looking at things very philosophically and like well, what is it we're ultimately trying to provide? What's our cut through line here? What are we trying to do? I think that's another attribute that I am proud of. I think there's also challenges and opportunities and things where I've had to grow. I kind of lack structure. I've had to really lean in and and to how do I build more structure? I think a lot of entrepreneurs are sort of impulsive and are like out there trying to fill the void, and I think I've had to really understand guardrails and understand how people need structure. If they're going to work for me, so that's a big opportunity for me it's like okay, how do I provide them what they need to feel like they're doing their job the best that they can, and that's something I've had to work on. So I mean, you know, as a leader, it's just like you may just being human. You know there's some things that come really naturally to you and to me, but then there's other things. I'm like oh yeah, she really wants to have an understanding of her roles and responsibilities. Let me write that down. Chris: Write that down. Elaine: So I think it's just an evolution, it's a growth, you know very good. Chris: So we kind of started with edit and we've gone. I love what's going on, so I want to bring you back to that. You know you take a hiatus. Elaine: Obviously there was a pandemic in there and you're raising, as you said, you know teenage daughter and. What was? Chris: it that told you it was time to get back in the game. Elaine: Yeah, it's such a profound question I had. No, I was really tunnel visioned for probably three and a half years there, where I was just in this mode of caretaking and frontline decision making for my parents and my daughter and just in my husband had just recreated his whole deal and he was sort of out there sustaining us, you know which we had never in our whole marriage, had never not both worked. So that was a real interesting how we were going to figure each other out with our roles changing so much. Like I went through a deep identity crisis of like well, who am I now If I'm not this owner and this fashion person. I'm like you know who am I. I had a big grief process over kind of unraveling that, and he did too with me, you know. So it was an interesting watching us try to figure each other out. But we actually made this decision to once our daughter transitioned to this therapeutic boarding school that we found for her that she's done beautifully well at. But it was really hard for my husband and I. We went and lived in Santa Fe for six months and sort of decided that we needed a healing opportunity. You know of her kind of letting leaving the home and edit was kind of born in that sacred space and I think it's because, chris, I had a moment that I could actually create space within myself for something new for me, because for so many years it was all about somebody else. Sure, I was trying to kind of save these people that I love so dearly. And so I started talking to my husband saying you know, I have some ideas of something that maybe we could think about, and he's hugely entrepreneurial too, which is a whole other conversation we can have. Chris: But he was. Maybe we'll have him on. Elaine: He is huge and he was like let's talk about it. And so we started brainstorming over you know, burritos and we sit in town and I started telling him kind of my thoughts about you know, tanglewood needs this new idea and we need to serve women and brick and mortar. You know things are coming back. So I read all the time about consumer, you know the product sector and retail, and he was like I'm in, I think we could do it, I think we need to bring that to the customer, and so it just slowly started seeping into me and then I started going to market and he would come with me and finding all these unique lines, esoteric lines that nobody had heard of, like a lady from Copenhagen was the first person to bring her to the US and doing all these things where I was like I'm going to take a risk, and she did great. I mean, we just had three months of selling with her, but anyway. So just really leaning into this idea of finding these really unique lines, and it took us about a year. I mean we did a year of like negotiating the lease and meeting the contractors and coming up with the store idea, the space, and I'd love for you to come by and see it. Chris: I've got to come by, so you know, tell where is the store now. Elaine: So it's on Woodway and Voss, right across from Second Baptist Church, so literally kind of in the heart of Tanglewood residential area right by that Krabah's over there. Chris: Oh, perfect. Yeah, Everyone knows what that is, I know so. So you second go around. You opened just recently, like a couple months ago. Elaine: Yeah, open October 9th. So, yeah, what's today's? Chris: January 10th. So yeah, you've just been a few months Going. Well, I take it. Elaine: It's great. I mean it was just a total whirlwind because it's funny, I opened the store of course holiday time period it's like you know I'm trying to get press, I'm opening up during the busiest season of the you know the year and retail, and so it went great and I we beat all the goals that we had. But it's been also kind of a internal reset for me to kind of what is that balance for me, being an owner again but not losing kind of my sense of equanimity, if you will. Like I can go real strong, real singular into my career. And I've had to kind of really do a lot of self-awareness work about in Kaling this was a lot, so don't lose yourself in it and because you don't want to lose the joy in it. And so there's been, you know, even in the three months, there's been some setbacks that have happened already. There's been some huge wins that have happened already. I've had to hire a new team, and so you know I'm not going to lie and say, oh, it's just all like, oh, this perfect law, I mean it's been where. I'm like, oh shit, I got to fix that, I got to do that. But you know I'm doing it and I wouldn't be doing anything else. Chris: So how would you compare kind of starting the first one to starting the second one? Elaine: I'll tell you what you know. I want you to answer that, but I'll tell you you know. Chris: I remember when we were about to have a second child and I looked at someone and they're like oh, people think, oh, you got this, you know what you're doing. And I said you told me something you've done for the second time in your life and you felt like an expert, right? Oh, my God, it's so true, I mean it's been so. Elaine: It's so funny because the first time I was so young and you know, with youth comes a nice amount of ignorance, and so you have no idea what you're about to do or the consequences of what you're about to do, and you're like, yeah, I got this. You know, I'm going to put some little money in, we're going to start this thing. And I started getting handbags shipped to me from Brooklyn in my living room and I had a baby at the time and I just thought, oh, I'm going to figure this out. But when you're young, you know, you feel good, your body works, you're like I've got it. And then, as you age and you understand what really the consequences are of choices that you make, you become much more thoughtful and mindful and cautious about what you're going to actually do and the choices that you make in your life. And so edit was very mindfully thought out before I did it, before I signed that lease. But with that said, it's been a whirlwind, you know, and so, and I'm older and so I don't have the reserves. I'd really believe that I don't have the reserves that I had. So it's funny that you asked me that, because my new year goal for edit was simplification. I need to kind of pull back a little bit, simplify some of these. You know, I get real ahead of myself, you know, and kind of look at it through a clearer eyes. And how do I build a sustainable business with a digital footprint and a brick and mortar footprint and how do those seamlessly go together? And so it's really been about how do I make this something that is balanced and joyful. And even in the hard stuff I can see the joy and it doesn't get away from me, it doesn't go off the rails, you know, but it's hard, I mean. The second one isn't necessarily easier. Chris: No, it's just different. That makes sense to me, right? That's probably the best way to put it. And what a wonderful story, and you're just a joy to be with. Elaine: So we're going to go a little personal to wrap this thing up what was your first job. My first job was working at Sugar Creek Country Clubs tennis shop, but are you selling tennis clothes? Well, I was streaming rackets as a big tennis player. Chris: And. Elaine: I was a teenager, but I guess, if you're saying my first kind, of real job. Chris: that was the job. That's what I was looking for, Like what you did when you had your first job to make a paycheck. Elaine: The tennis. I worked at the tennis shop. Chris: And so my favorite question, especially for the lifelong Texans, is what do you? Prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue. Elaine: Tex-Mex. Chris: Okay, no hesitation. Finally, we'll wrap this sort of on this question. If you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Elaine: I go to Santa Fe, I love Santa Fe, okay, and I would do grounding, healing nature Kind of. I feel like that place kind of resets your soul and so I'd engage in being outside and being in the food, the food there is so wonderful, but yeah, I do Santa Fe. Chris: Perfect, Elaine. Thank you so much for taking the time. Congratulations on the second go round with edit. Elaine: There we go, it's going to be successful right. Chris: So thank you, and we look forward to coming to the store and maybe we'll do it in there. Elaine: Oh, I'd love it, and thank you, I'm grateful. Special Guest: Elaine Turner.

Patrick takes queries from callers about specific meditative practices and their compatibility with Catholic teaching, from a Hawaiian meditative practice and the use of the word "chakra" in essential oils to using meditative tapes that were popular in the 80's. Patrick also offers guidance on dealing with personal and family matters, such as how to approach a son's behavior with his fiancée and whether it's appropriate to have a plot of land blessed for interring family members' remains. Mary Ann – Patrick, you have brought more clarity and I'm closer to God because of you. Thank you! Jessie - Ho'oponopono is a Hawaiian practice of forgiveness, is it okay for us to practice that? Jane - I am related to a Catholic woman whose ashes will be scattered on her property when she dies. If I am able to get the ashes, can I have a priest bless my land and keep the ashes here? Patrick responds to a listener who is disappointed in the show for missing an opportunity when talking to a young man who called in earlier today Mike - There is an ancient form of meditation by Roy Masters. Is that okay for me to do? Danna - My mom was thinking about getting buried in a Mormon cemetery. Is that okay? (25:47) Chris - How do you deal with a sister who lives in the past and is there a good bible verse about this? Judith – Should I use essential oils that use terms like “chakra”? Glenda - My daughter's father died and requested he be scattered in the black hills. What should we do? Maria - Instead of complaining today, people should be thankful that we have Relevant Radio and not to judge others but look inwardly. Mike - Blessing of same sex couples seems like the camel's nose under the tent. Vincent - Son is engaged to a woman who is disrupting the family. What should we do? (47:18)

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, we have an inspiring discussion with Tram Nguyen, the passionate founder of Living Good Candle Company. She shares her journey of launching a natural candle company and the power of her dedicated team. Tram describes the challenges of breaking into retailers like Amazon and Walmart and her three-month struggle that led to reinstating her Amazon account. We discuss her unique empathy-driven leadership approach and strategies for understanding the market. In wrapping up, Tram shares advice for aspiring entrepreneurs and her future plans. Additionally, we hear about her growth habits, first job at Chick-fil-A, and love of Texas barbecue. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS We discuss the entrepreneurial journey of Tram Nguyen, the founder of Living Good Candle Company, and her commitment to using natural ingredients in her products. Tram shares her experiences of getting her products featured on major platforms like Amazon and Walmart and the challenges that come with it. We delve into Tram's unique approach to leadership which emphasizes empathy, understanding, and active listening, contributing to her company's growth. Tram talks about the importance of a dedicated team and thorough market understanding for any budding entrepreneur. We touch upon Tram's strategies for budgeting and the difficulties she faces in accessing capital for her business. Tram offers advice for aspiring entrepreneurs, stressing the importance of hard work and life balance. We discuss Tram's personal habits for growth, including her love for reading and participating in a book club. She also shares her first job experience at Chick-fil-A. Tram shares her future plans for Living Good Candle Company, including product line expansion and increasing automation. We discuss the process of building relationships with big-name retailers like Amazon and Walmart and the importance of constant and timely communication. Tram talks about the setbacks she faced, including losing her Amazon account and her efforts to recover it, emphasizing the importance of resilience in entrepreneurship. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Tram Nguyen About Tram TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you'll meet Tram Nguyen, founder of Living Good Candle Company. Tram talks about the importance of understanding your market before starting a company and how the power of a team can help you realize your goals. Tram, I want to welcome you on to Building Texas Business. Thanks for being here today. Tram: Thank you, Chris. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be in this podcast. It's a really great to be here today. Chris: So tell us, you started a company on your own and it's a candle company. Tell us about Living Good Candle. Tram: Is that it? Yes, tell us about that. So I'm actually starting out my career as a chemical engineer. So I'm making many difficult products for lives, from plastic to car material, and now I'm making composite for airplane. So I've been making, producing so many useful products, and then suddenly, when I am a person that's really into candles I've burned a lot of candles throughout my whole life and then I got really bad headache from it and then I have to take a stop from burning any candle completely, and during that time I take a step back doing more research about what's going on in the candle industry and find out a lot of misconception or misunderstanding about different time material going to candles. And that's the reason why I decided to start a candle company that only make candles with be wires and only, and we make our own oil too. So we control everything into a product and we transparent about that to our customer, because I wanted the customer, when they burn the candle, not only feel good, but they know that they're not putting their health at risk. Chris: So your passion for candles is what kind of led you to start the company? Tram: Yeah, exactly. Chris: So you mentioned that. So what are the things that got you to? I guess you sound like you control the product mix so that it's more natural than having, I guess, bad chemicals in there. Tram: Yeah, it's 100% natural. Everything you make with be wires and we have the lab in Houston that make our custom oil. So I will come to the lab, I test all of them, reading or I smell them, go, improve all of the things going through with it and then approve them before we, you know, with them in the candle. So we also send our candle to the lab to test them to make sure no suit, no emission, no elegance, and because I have really bad allergy too. So that's the reason why I want a product that you know would my my at peace, knowing that it's not bringing bad chemical to my house. Chris: That's impressive. So when did you start the company? Tram: I started in last year. It took me a while to figure out the recipe. Seeing be wise a little bit difficult to handle, so I spent a lot of time testing it and work with a lot of vendor. So now all of our be was up from not Carolina and we have built trust with our vendor. And then you know, yeah, we've been around for a year and a half now. Chris: Okay, so your candles are all beeswax, and so what did you do to get the company started? Is it self funded? Tram: Yeah, it's actually self funded. So I spent all of my money from my night to five job with them all into the business. I work day and night, like weekend, no day off, and then, you know, put some of my seven on it. But as my plan for next year, we're working on some fund it. We're working towards some bank try to get the business fund it so we can spend them, because right now we focus on Amazon and Walmart, but my next year will be roll into the retail, so we will need a little bit more fun for that. Chris: Okay, so right now, the products excuse me are on. You find them at Walmart or Amazon yeah. What has that been like, dealing with those two to try to get into their system, and you know the logistics of having to be a vendor for Amazon and Walmart. Tram: You know what funny actually use the world for Amazon report. I use the world for Amazon. I used to be their operation manager, so I managed their warehouse and logistics, so I understand how it's work. That's why when I start the company, the first thing I do is I want my company as e-commerce because you know, I don't want to ship our product by myself, and the process again to Amazon is a hustle. You have to. You have to do everything right from day one with Amazon and we improve out the year, a year and a half. We get a lot of customers from all over the country. We do have some customers even from outside the country, but just our candle on Amazon and our Amazon sell it from 87% of previous customers. That's mean we build really big, you know, portfolio on our Amazon and then from there, when we're getting the profit from Amazon, we come back and talk to Walmart. Walmart will be a little bit harder to get in because they will require you to be at a certain revenue. So we come back, talk to them, convince them and now we like Walmart. Yeah, it's a lot of challenge dealing with, you know, those two big e-commerce website, because you have to do everything right and make sure that you know you don't get your company suspended and stuff. Chris: Very good. So let's kind of go back to this. Last year, or maybe even before you started business, you were doing a bunch of research. You said Talk to us about you know if there's entrepreneurs out there maybe that have just started what you're doing or thinking about it. What are some of the lessons that you learned? Maybe some bumps in the road that you encountered and how you got past those in starting this company. Tram: I think I make a lot of mistakes. I do think like that. The first thing I make mistake about is, you know, the lack of understanding of the market research Like even though I'm really good at production testing product but you know the lack of understanding of why people are looking forward. First Challenge Gina. For like three, four months we wasn't able to really push the sale up to where I wanted to be when I get started. So you know, if any intravenous want to start a side business or a business, the first thing to do we understand the market, understand your customer, and then the second thing will be understand your. You know the power of being in a team. I used to do everything by myself. I used to do candle pouring, production, packing, marketing, everything and then at one point I got burned out and that's the reason why I always say you cannot start a business by yourself. It's always needs help, you know from your teammate. And that's when we started bringing in more people, because my sale, my family and even my boyfriend got burned out. Everybody got burned out from helping me and that's why I'm like, okay, this is time for me to hire more people, and then I take in time, interview people and bring in some people to the team. Chris: So that's a great segue, so it does take a good team right at any company. So let's now talk about what were some of the things you did through, say, the interview process, to make sure you were hiring the right people to join your team. Tram: That's a hard question. Actually, I make a lot of bad hire at first because of the rushing feeling you know you got burned out and then I'm like, oh my god, I need help, I need help, and then we just take whatever. But then it's actually creating more problems down the line because I don't understand who I work with. And since I have my night to fight, I do looking for somebody that independent and can be at a warehouse by themselves. So in the interview I have conversation with them, I'm making sure that they okay. Working with the warehouse setting you know where it can hit can be a little bit of problem and it's you just have to look around for until you find a right one. So I, when I'm making so many bad hire, I take a step back. I say I'm not hiring more people. I try to do it by myself. I'm taking my time looking for a right person and then from there you know you just have to take your time talking to people, try to understand the goal. And one of my thing is I love hiring students because you know I used to be a student and working part-time, so I hiring them at part-time and right now we only have part-time worker. We didn't have anybody full-time yet. But you know I start with students because I like the curiosity of them and you know they want, they want to do the best. Chris: The young energy. Tram: I think so too. Chris: Well, I think you mentioned something that's true, I think, when you, when you're hiring out of what I'll call desperation, right, yeah you tend to overlook some things, and that yeah tends to lead to maybe bad hiring decisions as opposed to taking your time yeah and and really digging in to get to know someone and make sure they fit. You know the fundamental priorities of your company yeah, it's important it's very important. You only, you only figure that out if you slow down. Tram: I think so too. Yeah, you need to slow down to go far. This is what I take. Yeah, you need to slow down, take one step at a time so you can go for it. Chris: So let's talk a little bit about your process, I guess, and making your product. Do you, do you feel like what you're doing? It kind of in the candle manufacturing space is somewhat innovative. Tram: When I first started, it's actually was really manual. I actually took it out, like you know wasn't really innovative or efficient, and I'd good love it to be. But you know, of course, that I have to do everything by hand so I can figure out where I can twist stuff around. And the thing is I really listen to my teammate. So I talk to my candle maker almost every day and we ask you know, how was the process? Anything we can make them better. And then you know, from there I start looking more into automation stuff and my goal for next year is so right now we're working on the design not a machine, but a machine. But this can help us to pull the candles, so it can help us to minimize the mistake. But you know, when I first started it wasn't really innovative. It's really manual hand pull everything. But you know, one step at a time, and I always say we look into the process, talk to our people and see what we can improve. Chris: Well, I think at some level, just the fact that you're making such a clean candle is somewhat innovative as well like different than what your competition is. Tram: Of course, yeah, but it costs a lot of problem too because when they so natural, you cannot, you cannot control a lot of them. But then we, I always tell my customer, you know there will be some. The candle can cracking. So that's the biggest issue of BWAS. It cracked really bad and we have to do everything to control our temperature, but it still happened. And I always tell my, I tried to educate my customer that this is a clean product. We didn't put anything else. So there may be some imperfection, but you know it put you at peace. Chris: Yeah, what would have been some of the challenges on that kind of marketing this new product? Yeah, what are some of those challenges and how are you trying to overcome them? Tram: That's the tough question. Yeah, it is. It's a lot of maybe a lot of education for customers because you know you can just go to Walmart and buy some candle that I can never commit with them, you know, but I always tell people you know breathing is so important. You breathe in your air every day, so make sure you rent something clean to your house and it takes a lot of time for customers to get used to the product, understand some of the issues that might happen to be what and accept it. And the thing we do is, whenever a customer feel like you know the candle wasn't looked at, it's a. When it reached out to me, I addressed the issue immediately and tried to explain to them what's going on, and also some media is the same thing we post about our behind the scenes, some of the challenging that we encounter when we're making be what candle and you know, because of all of those issues, it actually make it unique. So we really stand out because we were looking at a product and say it's so natural. I have a customer about our candle on Amazon for a year and a half came to a farmer market to see me in person. Chris: Really. Tram: Just because she told me she's so impressed with the product she had to come all the way to the farmer market to see me. Chris: Well, that that had to make you feel good. Yeah, so you're dealing with two of the biggest companies in the world. What are some of the things that you do to try to foster and grow those relationships with the people you're dealing with at Amazon and Walmart? Tram: I think the first thing we do, we, we I don't always say like when you start out with them, you have to do right from the beginning, we from from even our account, you know reservation. We make sure everything is correct, no mistake, or you know, and we have actually have two people dedicated to just handling Amazon and Walmart. It's just because that this is a really bulky system from them and you need to have certain understanding and I feel like sometimes I'm in and out so much. That's why I'm dedicated to people. Don't do anything, spend four hours a day taking care of Amazon and Walmart for me and you make sure that you follow the rules. They have a lot of policy and rule. You make sure you understand it. You make sure that you you know update about the news because it changed up around a lot. So the thing is, you keep your communication with them. When something pop up, something doesn't, you know, sound right to you, you reach out to them immediately and they're actually very helpful when you calmly reach out to them, you know, and they will definitely get to you. I love working with Amazon and Walmart. Chris: Well, I think you hit on something. I mean that the key is communicating right yeah uh constantly and and timely uh yeah so let's talk about you. There's always learning and setbacks. What's what's a setback that you've encountered kind of along this journey that you know you maybe didn't think you could overcome, but but you did and it's made you stronger and better. Uh, can you, can you think of anything to share? Tram: yeah. So, um, we actually lost our Amazon account beginning of the year. Oh, we thought, we thought, we thought it for three months. It's, it's a. It's a disappointing feeling. You know, I just wake up. I just went too bad. Wake up in the morning, my account gone completely, amazon couldn't look, fired and there were so many people involved. Um, I was thinking that, all right, you know, maybe Amazon, you're not right for me. I have to be out Amazon, grow outside of Amazon. I was so I was really negative, you know, at that time, because you're losing a really big part of three months beginning of year. Sure, that's really hard for me. And we still have candle and a way hand needs to be sell. So, you know, I need to think about what do I want to do with it. So what we do is I reach out to so many people. I reach out to Amazon, prove multiple way. I send them a letter, I reach out from Twitter. I do everything I can make sure I'm in contact with a right person and then, when I'm in contact with them, we try to bring in an Amazon lawyer to just have some help from them, you know, to speed up the process and I really fight for it to get my account back. It's a three month. It's a long three month in my whole life, every day. You know we didn't get the answer we need. They say we cannot be an Amazon again. And then suddenly you know they, we just have to keep trying, send them more email, send them more message. Um, try to be kind with them. Even we be frustrated, but we need them help, they help. So we keep reaching out for three months and then finally they say, all right, we let we. They have to allow me to open a new account, so they allow me to open a new account, transfer everything, but the thing that you have to restart. We love all of our customers. Um, I thought that I would be out Amazon completely because of frustration that I have with Amazon. But, taking a look back now, we have so many great customers, like we have so many customers that reach out to me personally and send another message because just how much they love the candles and you know the fact that the people go out their way to go to the final market to see us, making me feel like Amazon, bring my product closer to more customers, and we actually have some wholesale order from customers on Amazon. So we roll really big on Amazon. Chris: That's right. So your persistence paid off, right. Tram: Yeah. Chris: But I have to imagine that was a pretty trying time for you as a young entrepreneur to lose an account like that. Tram: Yeah, and the thing is you cannot over new account. The moment you over new account, you shut it out completely. So you have to do the right thing. Chris: How did the rest of your team respond during this time? Tram: They actually work in hard with me. So at that time you know my Amazon team working hard every day with me. Sometimes I have to be at work so I wasn't being on the phone with them, so they help me to take on a call with Amazon, follow up with them every day. And the thing is, I'm really grateful for the people that I work with. We have awesome team. I have to tell you that we cheer every single wins, like, let's say, we have really great read, like Friday during this weekend, and it's when it's so great. So you know, that's the thing. You just have to put trust in your team and then know that they will do the best for the business and I just have them like hey, I don't care what you do, what long we, you know, can come back and run again. It should be good. Chris: Yeah. So that kind of leads me to the subject of talking. Maybe you as a leader of this team. How do you try to show up as a leader for your team? Tram: I think the thing is I show that I care in understanding and listening because, you know so we have one of my teammates recently have some of the things happen outside of work which you know affect the candle, because he dropped so many candles on the floor because of, you know, his mind was so busy. But instead of me yelling or upsetting what I tried to do, I tried to be calm and learn from it and ask hey, what's the issue, you know, do you have any problem that you want to share with me? So the thing for me is you'll be there for them when something happened, talk to them, listen to them, text them, like every day. Even I am not at the warehouse, I'm still calling. You know my people has, hey, are you doing good? Or I'm making sure they drink water, and you know we could text them hitting no joke for me. So I'm making sure that I'm taking care of them in everything I can Like. If they need a day off, you know I can cover for them. Or that's the reason why, you know, when I need help, when I need long hours, they will be there for me, because I'm be there for them and I listen to them and I go out of my way to help them, you know. Chris: That's right so it sounds, you know, someone likes servant leadership right, yeah. To make sure that they're taken care of when? How would you describe your leadership style? Where have you learned over the years in your other career maybe to develop these leadership skills? Tram: That's a hard thing, because I think that I see this improvement on my leadership. Chris: It's an evolving process. Tram: Yeah, it's a lot, but when I went to work, graduated walking I've been through it with so many it worked with so many bars, worked with so many managers and throughout the year I worked with them, I figured out what do I lie from them and what I don't lie from them. And now when I have my business, I try to do whatever I like from the manager. I have a boss that used to be there for me. He's so nice, he was helping me so much he could send me a card for Christmas or Thanksgiving and that's really something that, beyond our manager and work, a relationship he goes out of his way to help me when I need. And that's what I want to do for my people too. I want to be a type leader that if something happened at work, the people can feel okay to tell me what's going on, like there will be no upset or no being too aggressive. I want to be a good listener to them too, and I'm still working on that. Chris: Sure, so you're somewhat of an empathetic leader where they yeah. And have you seen that kind of take hold with your employees? The culture is forming where everyone feels safe to share if something's going on. Tram: Yeah, we have a worker just dropped like 20 candles on the floor the other day. If it's won't be before I have a business, I will be really aggressive, really angry. But with me dealing with my so many people, I try to become and try to clean up and I really don't mind to go to clean up their mess. That's what I normally say if I have to. So I really go out of my way to help people and that's actually make people want to work with me and stay longer. And we see that too. We see that even. You know we're small business, we're not big cooperation, so sometimes it's hard for us to keep people. But all of the people are working with us until this point in two years and I can see that they still want to work with me. Chris: Yeah, so you've talked several times at least referenced, kind of plans you have for the next year. So what are kind of, when you look to the next year or next three to five, what are the plans and strategies that you are putting in place and what you hope to accomplish and where do you see this company in the near future? Tram: So every year, like so, right now, I'm doing my six month plan. So I'm working better when I plan everything out and I would encourage all intravenous. You know, do nothing about it, write them down in the paper, do the chart, do everything you can you have. I think, like you can only achieve your goal when your mind is all about it. So right now, everywhere, I could sit everywhere and I could write down. You know how much revenue I want for every single platform. So so my year for next, go for next five years. You know I want that we will become the candle brand, that when customers want a clean candle they will say living, good candle code. So we want we, of course, that we want to become, you know, the goalie. Everybody wants to become a multi-million company, right, but for me, the goalie. You know, when you want something clean, you think about us and that's and that's something that I work hard every day and we and we have to do. You know, be what is so expensive. That's why so many brand cannot make a profit with them. And every day I have to continue, improve, to make, to make sure that a product is profitable. And another thing is you know, you just have to keep you know, thinking about what you want to do in your, what's your end goal of everything, all the hard work, and one of our next year I want to roll out a very, very new product on the market. We we don't want to disclose yet. Chris: That's fine you don't have to tell your secrets. Tram: Yeah, we, you know we will be rolling them out on January, but I think it's really right around the corner. Yeah, so it's really big hit for the market. Chris: So everyone should be looking out. It'll be on Amazon. Tram: Yeah, we Amazon and Walmart and our website Enough, we will be at a farmer market too. So if you locally to Houston, you know, stop by saying hi to us. Chris: Which farmers market. You mentioned that a couple times, so which farmers market are you at? Tram: We are the market for maker. Okay, so they in the highs. That's either only market I'm doing right now, but next year I would love to do, you know, more family market. I love the feeling of going there, going out there, talking to a customer and have them smell. I can't know. Yeah, but back to the question. We have a lot of go for next year. We want it to be more automation. We don't want people to manually apply every single label or every single jar. So we're working with a company, you know, to try to automate our process. We would love to hiring one or two person full-time with us, and that's something I'm working on. And we would love to increase our capital too. And it's really you know when, when you want to go, big capital can be a problem. So I try to get it ready for that. Chris: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that. What? What are some of the the things that you're doing to put in place to Access? Yeah additional capital. Tram: That's a hard question. So right now we still small and I, you know, and I mentioned I invest everything I make from nine to five into my psychic, like my kind of business all the money, all the serving. Another thing that I do a you know we sometimes we will ask help from friends and family and that's the only way that pretty much I'm doing right now to keep the company running. But of course it's still about us hustling. So we try to go to more farmer market, we try to do different things, expanding them on Amazon, like on tick tock we now have tick tock shop and Instagram. So we try to run, you know, expand them out to make a little bit money. But I'm very strict on how I spend it, so I'm budgeting everything. So right now I'm looking at the how much money I need for 2024 and that's helped me. That you know. Try to see where can I get all the old fun? Do I have to get it from the bank? Or you know, like it's a heart, I still try to figure out a capital part. Chris: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's a very important part of the new business right. I think what you mentioned a minute ago to budget very consciously and thoughtfully so you manage your expenses well. Yeah and that's gonna be important. When you go out for capital whether it's a bank or you know investor one wants to know you actually run in a good business. Tram: Yeah, of course I try to talk to some bank right now to to hopefully get a funded. Hopefully that will be, you know, something I can achieve next year. That's one of my goal. Chris: Okay, have you had any mentors kind of along the way in your career that have kind of Help, guide you or inspire you to do what you're doing now? Tram: I actually have a lot of mentor. I know so many people that I learned so much from them, and you know some people that they probably don't know me, but I learned them from their podcast. I listen some of your podcast to you, by the way. I try to know that, whatever the people do that I'm really enjoying. Like you, talk a lot about innovation and that is something that I really want us to be better at. I want us to be more. You know Concepts about how we can improve thing. So I guess one of my biggest mentor I have a mentor that meant to me how to sail on Amazon and he actually was the one that get me started. So I wish out to him, you know, talk to him about my desire, why I want to have this brain and why I want to start on Amazon, and he actually will help me from day one. So he guided me throughout the way and then I met some other mentor. You know, like we, I learned a lot from people more than most of me. More of the thing I learned is cell top. You know from YouTube. Chris: Well, you, I think, what you Find along the ways, you can kind of learn from everybody, right, I mean some more than others where there's a lot of you, if you're Observing enough and willing to pay attention, that there's always yeah sometimes learning is learning what not to do. Tram: Yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah, it's. We learn from our customers. We have customer that angry right, you know, because on Amazon, so people can just buy our product and change them up there by the next day. So we learn so much about our customer and the thing might go it to review our return rate to almost zero and, to be honest, we don't have a lot of return in the big market like that, but we still have some. And Every time that I have a customer return, I accept it, I reach out to them, I want them to tell me what's happened or what can I make them better, and I do think that dough feedback is something that you know make us better every day. Chris: That's good, I agree. So any One or two things you might tell an aspiring entrepreneur to to think about as they're About to step off and start a company, like you did a couple years ago. Any pointers? Tram: I did so. If I have, I would love to Tell this to all intrapreneur. I think having the business and actually running a business at two different things is a lot of hard work. You have to read yourself out there. I used to be so shy, you know, but I have to go out there hustling, selling stuff at family market, ringing my product out there for people to judging is, but the thing is, when you want to do great in your intrapreneur, you have to make sure that you, you know you just keep pushing, don't care about anybody else, just think about yourself and be in it. And the second one a do not ever think that you can do everything by yourself. It's impossible. They have to be balanced between your life, your work life and your family. And you want to make sure that you know when you at your high point in your career, you still feel happy because your family happy with you. So that's it. Two things that I would love people to think about when I started their internship. Chris: Those are two great things to share, so thank you for that. Listeners out there, well, thank you. Tram: So let's, let me ask you this what was your first job? My first job. I used to work in Chick-fil-A before. Okay, you know, so I can't learn a lot about value. Customer week my in my mind. Customer in my number one, my priority. Everything I do to make sure they happy. Chris: So if you, if you work there, you must have eaten the food a lot. Are you like, done with Chick-fil-A now? They get me every time yeah, yeah, what's not the like about it. So, keeping with the theme of food, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Tram: You. Chris: Very good. Who doesn't like good barbecue? Tram: and Texas yeah. Chris: So are there any things that you do to kind of keep yourself up, like reading or you mentioned podcasts any business related books or podcasts you like to listen to that you share? Tram: I listen to. I read a lot of books, so I actually attend to a book club, so we wake up at 5am in the morning picking the book that we read. So right now I'm reading a book called the Messy Truth from Alie Wab. So that's a really new book. Chris: The Messy Truth. Tram: Yeah, the Messy Truth. So she talks about the behind the scene of intravenous and every new intravenous will find themselves in there. She talks about lots of dark side of the business the busy, the doubt about your business yourself. So if anybody wants to start intravenous, I think that's a good book to start with, Because it will help you to see that everybody out there having a small business dealing with the same thing that you're dealing with. Chris: It takes hard work, it takes courage and a little bit of you know willing to take a risk, right yeah. So that's great, I'm going to have to go check that book out. Tram: Yeah, they actually just released. Yeah, they actually just released, like last week, I think. Okay, yeah, so just now yeah, they just out. Chris: Well, tramp, thank you so much for being on the show. Enjoy hearing your story. Best of luck as you continue to grow, living in good camel company. Tram: Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate the opportunity and, you know, really appreciate that you helping me here. Let me share my story and hopefully it can inspire many small business out there. Chris: No doubt it will Take care. Tram: Thank you. Special Guest: Tram Nguyen.

In today's episode, Julia chats to former Labour MP and broadcaster for Iranian backed channel Press TV, Chris Williamson.Chris served as a shadow minister under Jeremy Corbyn. Williamson was elected as Labour's MP for Derby North in 2010 and re-elected in 2017 after losing the seat to the Conservatives in 2015. He stood as an independent in 2019 after being suspended by the party in a row over antisemitism.Julia has a furious clash with former Labour MP Chris Williamson over his stance on the situation between Israel-Hamas.Chris: “How you can defend a regime which is behaving worse than Nazis?”Julia: “Why don't you just come on this show and shout ‘I hate Jewish people' and save everyone time?” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rudy - 1st Samuel Chapter 3 seems to point to the importance of praying for the dead when David prayed for Saul. What do you think? Susan - Can people other than God give grace? (06:35) Chris - How can I deal with friends and family who are homosexual but raised Catholic? (13:20) Madeline - Regarding the marriage debt, is it no longer a free choice to give yourself to your spouse after you are married since you have to fulfil it? Emily – My young adult son thinks communism is good. Why does communism reject religion? (25:45) Patrick recommends “The Black Book of Communism” and “1917: Red Banners, White Mantle” and “With God in Russia” and “Dedication and Leadership” by Douglas Hyde for books that shine a light on the horrors of communism Alex - People who are in favor of Palestine must not read and understand their bible. Cristina - I can't make it to Daily Mass for the First Saturday Devotions. Can I go to the Vigil Mass instead? Joseph - Do you know about the 7 Mountain Mandate and the New Apostolic Reformation which has loud music and impartations of grace. Kevin - What do you think of forced fatherhood? Rafael - Could you explain the meaning of the temple being rebuilt and the other things that Jews believe the Messiah must do?

Today's show features Chris and Mathew chatting about LIFE! Some of the topics they cover: Mathew turning 50, the show's shift into TRANSFORMATION themes and topics, addiction and recovery. Also in this episode: Mathew asks Chris: How has your life changed since starting this podcast? Both Chris and Mathew share their answers Mathew and Chris play a round of: Name That Tune Chris shares his battle with opioids in depth Go to https://betterhelp.com/ineededthat for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help #sponsored Try Neurogum over at: https://tryneurogum.com/ineededthat #sponsored Thanks for checking out our podcast and please don't forget to follow along on Instagram at www.instagram.com/ineededthat  Connect with Chris Powell, get links to his new app (coming soon) as well as products & speaking info at www.ChrisPowell.com Connect with Mathew Blades, and bring him into speak at www.learnfrompeoplewholivedit.com Bring movement to your company or school with Move 1 Million www.m1m.org Run the lululemon10k with us this November 12th, in Scottsdale, Arizona. Register HERE: https://lululemon10ktour.com/podcast

In today's episode, I chat with Amber Jones from Tangram Interiors about her company's move from California to Texas and how they foster innovation through their unique design process and showroom experience. Amber shares insights on staying ahead within the cyclical furniture industry through careful research and an emphasis on maintaining company culture during times of growth. We also discuss the challenges of managing virtual teams and leading with collaboration. Amber offers perspective on balancing work and family from Brené Brown and shares her wisdom on these topics. It was a thought-provoking discussion exploring transforming workspaces and ideas to enhance life beyond the job SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Amber Jones, the Vice President of Sales at Tangram Interiors, discusses the journey of moving their operations from California to Texas, and how they use unique tools like noise and digital maps to improve their showroom experience. She provides insights into the cyclical nature of the furniture industry, emphasizing the importance of staying ahead of the curve and fostering an environment of innovation within the company. Amber emphasizes the significance of maintaining company culture amidst expansion and managing a virtual team in a post-pandemic world. She highlights the importance of work-life balance, which differs from person to person, and shares Brené Brown's perspective on marriage and the importance of enjoying the people you work with while maintaining a balance with family life. The episode includes a fun chat about Amber's first job and her preference between Tex-Mex and Barbecue. Tangram Interiors creates innovative workspaces, making spaces where people can learn, work, and heal. They use technology and unique tools like noise maps and digital maps to improve their showroom experience. Amber believes in fostering a strong company culture, which she sees as vital when expanding into multiple offices. She emphasizes the importance of planning and research when entering new opportunities or meeting new people. Amber talks about the evolution of leadership styles and the challenges faced due to the pandemic. She highlights the importance of creating workspaces that allow productivity and foster collaboration. She discusses the potential of radical honesty in relationships and how it can foster growth and trust. She also talks about the importance of leading with a collaborative mindset and the need for self-awareness. The episode ends with a discussion on dreaming of a life in France and wishing Amber Jones the best of luck as she expands her business in Texas. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Amber JonesAbout Amber TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Amber Jones, vice president of sales at Tangram Interiors. Amber shares how Tangram uses innovative designs to create amazing places for people to work, learn and heal. Chris: So Amber, I want to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks for agreeing to join us. Amber: Thanks for having me. Chris: So let's talk about Tangram Interiors. I want you to at least start by telling the audience what is the company known for and what do you do. Amber: Yeah, so Tangram is a commercial interiors organization. Basically, we create amazing spaces where people learn, work and heal. So all of the interiors, from the flooring to the walls to the furniture, I'm just really creating spaces where people can go to work or go to learn in classrooms or education or, like I said, heal in hospitals and those types of environments that's great. Chris: How old is the company? When did it start? What was the inspiration for it? Amber: So Steelcase we are Steelcase dealership, which is a major mainline manufacturer, and so they've been around for a hundred years, and the Steelcase dealership that Tangram purchased was in 2000 in California, and so what brings us to Texas is that in 2021, we acquired a dealership here in the Dallas Metroplex, and so that is what's brought me to Texas via Tangram Interiors. Chris: Okay, so you're a transplant Californian, now Texan. I'm one of those. Amber: Yes, but you know I'm really enjoying this place and I you know it's not something that I would have like raised my hand and volunteered for, but honestly I feel so at home here, and I just know that the business world that we found ourselves in over the last two years is exactly where our business is supposed to be. Chris: That's great. Let's talk a little bit about that process of the move. What has it been like from your perspective? You know, moving a basically a California business I know it was by acquisition, but moving that California business to Texas, yeah. Amber: And so, what has it been? Chris: like. Amber: Interesting. You know, it's really it's. I want to say it was a challenge, but it wasn't. I think that the Metroplex is confusing in some ways in that it's large but there's a lot of really close knit relationships here and so we were able to bring on some really great people that had some really existing, really good, strong standing, existing relationships in the market, which helped us to position ourselves in the right way in the right place. But I definitely part of the reason for it and part of what made it so helpful and necessary is that the majority of our customers were looking at moving to Texas, and so when you start thinking about how can we do business in both states with you, it made sense for us to be able to send them away from California and then receive them as they arrived in Texas. So it was really, it was an obvious next step for us and when the position you know, when the dealership position opened itself up, it made sense for us to acquire them for sure. Chris: That makes sense. I can tell you, at least from the legal perspective. I've lost count of how many California companies we have represented and since, say you know, late 2000, early 2001, helping them set up shop in Texas. Amber: Well, it's interesting in that regard, you know. It's like where do you home them from right? Like, are you running your business as a California business that has an extension in Texas, or do you have a Texas business that has an extension in California? Or two independent companies. So, yes, some struggles, as we like learn to adjust about. You know where do we write the laws from as far as, like you know, labor laws, etc. Chris: So, yeah, I can tell you, most of our experience has been the we are doing Texas based entities, that basically converting the California entity into a Texas entity. Amber: There's a bajillion reasons why that makes the most sense. So, yeah, it's definitely the direction that we're heading in. Chris: So you've got this company. You create amazing spaces for your clients. What about for your people? I mean, I guess your showroom has to showcase your talent. So how do you go about designing your showroom and fostering, I guess, that creativity in the workplace for your employees? Amber: Yeah, so it's very important that we have spaces that reflect what we do. So we work in our showroom. So working showrooms are a little bit more interesting than just a regular like office place would be. Everything is pristine and there's lots of choice and control about how and where you work throughout the day. So maybe I'm coming in for a quiet day and so I would locate on the floor plan, on the digital map, as to where it's most quiet for the day in the space and then maybe that's where I want to work so that I have access to the resources, Whereas other days maybe I came into the office to have more of a social day. So I'm going to look on the kind of noise map for the space and decide where it's loudest and maybe that's where I'm going to go set up shop so that I can get that like extroverted you know full feel that I needed in coming into the office. So it's really exciting. I really it's almost like working in a zoo some days because there's just tours happening so regularly that it's. But it's cool because it gives us the opportunity to really use and show the product that we sell. Chris: So you mentioned two things that I've never heard of before. That was a noise map and a I forget the other one a digital map, I guess. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that. I'm just intrigued. So is that something that I guess that you offer your clients where you can and you use it there in the office to figure out what's? Amber: your debt on. So we have a technology arm of what we sell so furniture, technology, walls and we really feel like if you can plan a space that integrates the technology and the furniture together versus an afterthought, you're going to have a much better experience for your users. And so for us, we want we want anyone to come in all day and be able to work wherever they want. So part of that is that we are a view, sonic mood, sonic showroom, and that means that we have different zone maps throughout our space. So when you walk in, there's like literally a floor plan on a big digital screen and it shows you where it's loudest throughout the showroom and then where it's quietest, and then what the noise does and the little iPads is. It allows for you to adjust the soundscapes that pump into that area of the showroom to adjust to how much noise is happening there. I personally am a very loud human being, so we joke that color follows me throughout the showroom as I get louder and walk. But also that means that the white noise that's pumping into the space follows me, so that you can see that I'm talking, but you can't make out what I'm saying while you're on a video call across the room. So we really feel, as we get back, especially post COVID, to how many video calls that we're all having in our workplace. No matter what we do for a living, there must be something in your workplace that allows for you to have that hybrid experience and not have it be choppy. So there has to be a reason for you to leave your house Right and it has to be an office that works for you. And the office that we left pre-COVID, that we didn't do a lot of these video calls, didn't have to have the same things that the office today have, and we really feel like a lot of that is the addition of technology because of the communication that happens on screen. So much now. Chris: It's so true. I think anyone I know I can speak for myself but anyone that's been back in the office and we really came back to the office in May of 2020. Amber: Pretty quickly Very smartly, very carefully. Chris: Most people have their own private office here. Amber: Different experience. Chris: But the number of doors that are shut throughout the day for the reasons you just said to control the noise, because we're on Zoom or team calls can get frustrating because we are very open door policy, very great culture, but it's somewhat counterintuitive. So what you're talking about makes total sense to me. Amber: It's hard because it's like why am I leaving my home office, where I have everything set up and I don't have to drive, so that I can go sit in another private office in a conference in a big building where I had to drive in park, just to shut the door again? Like what am I getting from one or the other? What's the benefit to leaving the house? And so really the challenge is what's the pull? So we say you have to return to something better than you left. It can't be the same office. Chris: Yeah, that's great. So kind of on that topic and he's thinking about your company, the downturn. I mean, you're clearly in a business that requires personal interaction and connection. How did y'all manage through keeping the business going when your employees and probably your customers or potential customers did not want to be in person? Amber: Yeah, it's interesting. I would say that the vertical markets that we cover is one of the benefits of our organization, because when things got bad, hospitals still had a huge need, there was still healthcare requirements that were happening around. Covid Schools still needed to pivot and make changes, so there were still things that were happening in some of those other sections. But certainly furniture is something that people don't buy when they don't have to right, and certainly not when there's not people in the office, and so it was a weird time for sure. But I think that what happens in this industry, specifically with furniture, is it's very cyclical. You can look back at like the 2007, 2008,. Then you can look into like there was like this 2016. I mean, there's like times and moments in time where things like took a little bit of a dip, not as much purchasing was happening. I think those are moments in time where we can be strategic and really align ourselves with where do we see those next verticals growing? Right now, bioscience is huge. That's where we need to be focusing, as we move forward, some of the more opportunities to track the industries, versus just waking up and expecting the same type of business to be there every day, you know. Chris: Makes sense. So innovation's got to be a very important aspect for the well-being and growth of your company. What are some of the things that y'all do to instill or encourage innovative things to be fostered throughout the company and encourage your people to think and act innovatively? Amber: Yeah, so I guess two pieces. Obviously, it's very important that what we're selling is innovative. I think a lot of that is based out of absolute research 100% research-based organizations in Steelcase, and so they spend a lot of time trying to figure out what people need and why. And so when it hits the market and we're selling it, we've got so much history and so much research to back why we're bringing another chair or another table or another thing to the market. Otherwise it's just that right, another table and another chair and who needs those things. But I think internally within Tangram Interiors, we really are a super authentic organization. Anyone can walk up to my desk at any point in time. I don't work in a private office. None of us do. None of the executive leadership ever work in private offices, and really in all of our six offices, the only one that has a private office is the human resource team so that they can have the privacy of lockability. Past that I mean. Really there's no one within the organization that can't have an idea that could be implemented today. I think that's kind of the greatness of any organization is when you have that open door policy. Because there's not a door, they're never one right. It's like if you have an idea and it's something that is helpful to the progress of the organization, by all means, and I think those are things that we reward throughout the year. I mean, we have different focuses and different events, but we have a fact award. So we really want people to be focused, accountable, we want them to be strong culture, advocates that show strong teamwork and strong trust, and those are things that we are pillars of our success on a regular, daily basis, and when we talk about them and we look for those in employees, it is that we expect them to come up with ideas in their team meetings and we expect them to have the trust within themselves and the trust within us to bring those new ideas to us for implementation. So, honestly, I think this whole industry and this whole world is about change and choice and honesty. Like have an idea, let's chat. Chris: Yeah, let's talk about it, so OK. So you're touching on culture, one of my favorite topics. Amber: Mind you. Chris: So let's you know a couple, you know at least a couple of questions on that. For you, you know, one is I always ask all guests kind of, how would you define your culture? And I think for you a corollary to that is how has it migrated east from California to Texas, you know, have you maintained the culture that was built in the roots in California to the Texas office, or has there been some adaption to this new office in a new state, in a new city? Amber: Such good questions. Cultures is one of my favorite topics as well. So in California one of my roles there was on boarding all of the new hires and I think for me that was an opportunity to instill in them the culture that I found at Taingram and I really found it important that as they kind of graduated out of one on one training with me that they moved into the next portion of their organ, of their role in the organization. Really understanding the culture was the basis of it all, the foundation of who we were as a company, and so I think for me it was really hard to leave behind the culture that I feel like I was such a huge part of building in California. In fact, I remember standing in front of everyone here in Texas holding this piece of paper as we were about to like tell them that we just acquired their company, and I was so nervous and I think back now and it's like so funny to think that I was nervous in front of those people but because I didn't know what kind of culture I was walking into and I think it matters so much. So the longest way possible of answering that question is that I brought that culture with me and I spent the last two years trying to foster it here, and I would tell you that we absolutely are the same company in Texas that we are in California because of those kind of cross pollinations and making sure that we've got people flying back and forth from both locations and executive leadership, as well as like marketing and different sales people, and I think that we all have a lot to learn from one another that if we treat each other as like a bench for both cities as opposed to Dallas, tangram and California Tangram, just Tangram continue to have that culture be you know, exemplified in all of our offices. Chris: You really want you branch. I guess it could happen in one office. Amber: That's the thing, yeah. Chris: Yeah Well, once you branch out to more than one office, you really can't have the us versus them or you have a culture. It's just not a healthy one, Right? I mean yeah. Amber: Yeah, so it's actually. It's interesting we just did a company survey and we just got the results back and read them off to the whole organization verbatim for the way that they answered the questions with all of the comments and feedback, and it was such a delight to be able to read the results back to the organization and have results be in like the high 80s for how they felt about our culture and the way that we run our company and how they feel comfortable talking to us. Those are astronomically high percentages. I mean it felt like we should all clap. You know clap because genuinely that's not me or any of the other leadership, that is every single human being that wakes up and says they are part of 10 year materials every day. Chris: We all make sure Very impressive. I mean because you're right, I'm going to be proud of and usually yeah, okay. So we talked about this a little bit before we started recording. I'm going to ask you now so you can tell the story behind you are words to say start right, to finish right. Is that some type of pillar within the company? Or you know how is that? It's not there by accident, right? Amber: No, it's not. And I mean, I think with anything good goes planning, goes research. You know, I think we have a really great network in the people that we work with, and with every opportunity that hits the street, there's a way to go about doing it. That's the strong way, the smart way, that it starts with strategy, and so for us it's like you know, you can send off six emails while you're sitting in a meeting talking about a possible opportunity, or you can spend 10 minutes doing some research and figuring out who might be the warmest opportunity or person to connect. You do that right. There's ways to go about things. So I think, from an organizational standpoint, we look at it like take the time to do your research, to be prepared to show up and make sure that you earn the opportunity to win the business, versus just showing up, which is sometimes easier to do. Chris: Well, you mean it's always easier, or seems easier, to take the shortcut. But you're right being thorough and showing up there, there's no substitute for that. Amber: Sounds easier, until they ask you a question and you're like I don't even know what this company does. Chris: Yeah. Amber: And then you feel silly for an hour and a half in front of that person in person. Like I would rather do the research, find a computer to be prepared to not sound silly. Chris: So do you do some training around that? How do you instill that into your new hires? Amber: Yeah. So I mean I think like the true answer is that we're really good at using our AI and our tools that we have. There may be a little bit big brothery, but I think that there's a mentor that we have within our organization that always says that our network is equal to our network, or, sorry, our network is equal to our network. And it's true. We know so many people within the 400 people that work at Tangeram that there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to have a warm introduction to people that are chasing business in our markets, Whether that's our partners, whether those are GCs or those are, like you know, architect or design firms that we work with. There's got to be somebody that can make a warm introduction rather than you just like going and knocking on someone's door. Nobody likes that. Chris: Yeah. Amber: And so, I think, just be smart, use the tools that we have and use the resources that we have and be thoughtful and it you know we all get cold calls every day. What do you do with most of them? Ignore, yeah, you can tell what the difference is. So like, do you want to be the one that gets ignored, or how do you go about doing it a little bit differently, and it's generally because someone sends you an email that said you know, chris, you should meet Amber. Chris: That's actually how this happened, right? Someone sent an email and said right, so there's. So you know that you touch on a topic that I do like to talk about it, because there's there's always learning. So what do y'all do at Tangram to try to, you know, build and maintain these important relationships with customers, with your partners, with your stakeholders? I mean, they're all so important. So what are some of the things that y'all maybe talk about and try to put into practice to make sure you're building and maintaining those relationships? Amber: Yeah, good, I mean, I think there's kind of there's a million different ways, but I think there's three kind of pillars, if you were to boil it down. One, it's the social touch. Right, let's have a drink, let's go to dinner, let's just get to know each other as people because, truthfully, everybody wants to hang out and do business with people that they know right. Chris: People know what they like, that they like and then, ultimately, they've learned to trust right, exactly right. Amber: So, but the flip of that and it's a double edged sword is that nobody likes to do business with someone that goes out and has a bunch of drinks and doesn't wake up the next day Like no one wants to do business with the party animal either, right? So we say that when you're doing your social touches and you're entertaining and you're getting to know someone as a human being, then you also need to follow that up with. You know, research, information, like what are you doing to add value to what they're doing in their life or their job? And so for us, the ability to bring what other organizations are doing to the table for other companies that are in like situations is a huge benefit for us. So maybe you're a I don't know a science, I don't know. Let me think of something good. Maybe you're in the industry entertaining industry and you are trying to figure out what to do with your new space. Well, we've got five other companies that are in the same industry. So we'll pull together a round table and you guys can talk amongst yourselves about how you, what you're doing to bring people back or what you're doing. That's a little bit different. So I think it's utilizing our resources. It also helps to be able to prove that we've got some customers in that market or that industry right, that vertical, and we know what we're doing in that vertical. Let's bring those people together. So it's again, it's utilizing our network to really help teach each other and in doing that you become a trusted advisor. I think that's it, and consistency, right, just showing that over and over again and not when there's work. Just to say happy birthday, or I thought about you. How's your Tuesday going? Chris: Yeah, be genuine. Amber: The thing that we all want right that they say no one checks in on the strong people Like. Sometimes it's nice to just get a message that says hope, you have a great day. So I mean, I think that's the simplest way of just being human and authentic, but it is so underplayed in this world. Chris: Sad but true. So let's go back to, maybe, the office space. Yeah, I think there's obviously so much that's been discussed from the, you know, the work remote hybrid. Now you start seeing companies are mandating back in the office, so maybe you can talk some about what are some of the trends that you're seeing in, you know, in office space design concept, etc. That companies are asking for or coming to you with to try to create that environment. As you said earlier, that will make it compelling for someone to leave home to be back in the office. Amber: Yeah, I mean I would say number one there there's a lot less private offices that there used to be. If there are private offices, they're on the interior core of the building so that the light can be exposing to all of the stations and the other employees throughout the office space. We're seeing a lot of greenery being added to spaces and lots of areas that should make you feel like you have choice around where you work. So lots, a lot of maybe two employees to one desk type of environments, less dedicated desks so that you can walk in and say you know, today I want to work over in this corner in this little nook, or today I want to work at this desk. Those are the kinds of things that we're seeing a lot of. I think every single area has so much technology that we might have also started forgetting about the analog just whiteboard right. The ability to just pick up and just brainstorm versus having to create a flow chart on a PowerPoint right. So one doesn't cancel out the other. The need for both is still there, and so I think, when you're talking about these kinds of different spaces, when you get to the office it's like are there team breakout rooms that maybe I have whiteboards and monitors and desks that move around and I can set it up for my team for the week and then set it up for another team the next week. So just lots of things that are mobile and allow for the most amount of spaces to work harder than just with one purpose. Chris: Okay, yeah, so just kind of the flexibility. Amber: Massive right now flexibility and technology that's on casters, so it's also mobile right so everything is moving and I think part of that is realizing that, like that, when COVID hit and everything was fixed, it was like how are we going to rearrange, you know, when things then automatically went to casters and it was like we can move around wherever so that you really can't allow yourself to set up for the day the best that works for your goal, for the day at work. Chris: I like that. So I'm going to kind of change subjects a little bit. Amber: Would you like that though? Like, would you like if you didn't have to go into your office? Like, would you feel comfortable working out into the open floor plan? Because you just said you guys all go into your private offices when you get there and but you like having the doors open. If you found yourself in an open environment, do you think it would change the way that you work? Chris: I don't know. It's a great day. I like, well, see this one. I like coming into the office, I like the flexibility of, you know, working remote when it makes sense or when I can, and like to your point, there are some days when, at least given what I do, I get lots of interruptions throughout the day and if I need to not be interrupted, you know I may not come to the office to, so I can focus for four or five hours or whatnot. Amber: Isn't that interesting. And it's so funny because I don't know that I would have said that five years ago. Like if I have a focus day, I'm going to stay home. Chris: Yeah. Amber: Also to think about that, like, what it works for you might not work for the 30 year old mom. Right, they need five hours to focus. They can't do that at home, they're going straight to the office, right, and I have. Chris: We have some young mothers here that will tell you. They come to the office and please don't make me go home to get work done. The other thing that I'll say to you as an aside, that it is part of the younger generation which, unfortunately, I guess I'm not but earbuds while they work, listening not just to music, but they'll be listening to crime podcast or things, and I'm like how are you doing that and still focusing on what you're doing? I, you know, I don't know. Amber: Outwild. Yeah, so I think that's funny. We learned that while we were all in the same storm we were all in very different boats. Right, what your boat was and the size of your boat at home was very different than other people's with kids and talking to people's with kids and toddlers and kindergarten, and yeah, I got to the office and was like, oh, I want to drink hot coffee here in silence. This is heaven. But yeah, the micro or the multitasking and getting a lot of stuff done, it's interesting when we used to see the head, the earbuds that were more like hey, this is my cue to say that I'm doing heads down, quiet work, so don't interrupt me. I'm doing some furniture pieces that allow for you to like kind of pull out and it's a storage piece, but it basically, when it's out, it's the equivalent of your buds and like don't, I'm working, I'm in heads down road right now. For those of us that don't have the private office ability to shut the door. Chris: I think you know to you're asking about our space and it's hard because when we're not, that I mean everyone up here is kind of in a cone of confidentiality with our clients, business. But to be in a, you know, in a private, close space, to be able to have a conversation without a bunch of other people in open space, is, you know, kind of what works in our environment, in our industry related to law. Yeah, yeah, and the and I, you know I would work remote even before Kobe hit, you know, because it's just the nature of what I do and it's what I do and the demands. But I do believe the flexibility is a good thing. We also think we work and what we do, and it may be true for you, when we can collaborate together and, like you said, get on a whiteboard and actually brainstorm something together, you just can't do that on video. And the other thing that I know you're aware of that there's lots of been written you lose that social, there's a social piece that happens kind of before or after in between meetings. That when you're on scheduled zoom and you're going to the next and next, you lose. And that's to me really where culture gets built. Amber: Yes, it's the how is your weekend, which sometimes is grading, because it's small talk, but then it's like then learning that they like X and oh, me too, and right, and it creates a whole another conversation which then leads to brainstorming. And right, I mean like the Googles of the world created a 15 minute line on purpose in their cafeteria so that people from different buildings across the campus would cross pollinate intentionally while they waited for their food. It's exactly the same idea. It's like how do I get these people to stop and talk to other people within the office If they're never here? How do they create a relationship? There is no culture created on a web camera. Right, there's not just a bunch of people themselves in the camera. Chris: That's right. You're distracted by backgrounds and or or I was literally conducting an interview earlier this week via video and the person that was interviewing for the position had a dog barking and finally it was like it has to be, everyone else is on mute, right and but they didn't finally like 20 minutes in. They finally said you know, I'm sorry, my dog, but I was like, oh my gosh. Amber: I would be so mortified. I had a very awkward one early on where there was a naked moment. We'll leave it at that. And yeah, it's been a wild ride. These zoom backgrounds and so, anyway, blurring is best, if nothing else is the lesson. Chris: So let me talk a little bit about you and what the question is kind of you as a leader, how would you describe your leadership style? Let's say this as a today, but how has that evolved? Because I know where you are today is probably not where you were five plus years ago, because we all evolve as we go. Amber: Yeah, I try to be super authentic. I try to be the boss I always wanted to be, which I think if you do it like that, then it kind of keeps you human. I never try to ask anyone to do something that I wouldn't be willing to stay and do with them, and I think that comes with the history of starting in this business and working my way through it, so that there's not really any job here that I don't know how to help with. But I think the ability to know that I'm not just kind of hollowing down from the mountain top and willing to like roll up my sleeves and do it with you Gosh, how have they changed? I think that before I would have had things I would have wanted to say and I would have thought long and hard about how to say them, and I think over the years I've learned that rapid, radical honesty is play. So rather than spending a week and a half trying to come up with the exact way that I might say something that wouldn't offend someone and then dredge it all back up again, I'd rather just address it, talk about it. Hey, this didn't feel right. A better way to do that might have been this had this you know effect and you might not have realized that when you were doing it. Here's a different way. I think if you can address those things instantaneously, even though it might be a little raw in the moment, I think that for me that is really allowed for there to be a lot of growth and honesty in my relationships for people that work with me. Chris: I like that. Amber: And that statement right there people that work with me. That's the other piece the people that work with me. I think something happens when you get into a certain leadership place where you're like the people that work for me and I will never be that leader the people that work with me. Chris: It's a team mentality 100%. I think that's a very it may sound subtle to some, but I think it's a very big distinction and how your mindset is. If you could, if you approach it with the we versus the I and actually in a genuine way, that will your, the people you work with will feel that and sense that, and I think the way they respond to you is exponentially better. Amber: Yeah, you know it's funny because I had a conversation with a colleague recently that said you know, you might be too close to some of the people on your team. And it was funny because in the same way that I'll take the rat, I'll give the radical instant criticism. You have to be able to receive it as well. And I think I took it the other way. I swung the pendulum so hard and I cut all of these really strong relationships that I had made in a business way and kind of turned them into friends and started to try to draw this line. And it took me about six months to realize that I was very sad without those people in my world and I wanted to open back up again and be the person that I had been before. So back to the leadership piece. I think it's important for me to say that while I'm also willing to receive feedback, I'm also not willing to accept it all as fact. Good, that's all of it is stuff that you have to be able to process through and realize what you want to keep and what you want to discard, and then what you want to implement right. And so for me, I tried it and it didn't work and it was like nope, I'm going to go back to this other way. And I think that is what growth is is the willingness to change and change back. Chris: Sure, and I think, being self aware right Absolutely. I think that's that can apply in so many ways. I think to the willingness to try something different, the willingness to be honest about it, whether it's working or not, and it's okay as an example, it's okay. Well, that decision ended up not being right, so let's go back. Amber: For me. Right, it didn't work for me and that's good that it works for others. I think I appreciate that boundary. For other people it's. That kind of work life balance is a funny it's a funny conversation. For me I think that it's a joke, frankly, like some days we spend 90% of our effort and energy in the office and we only have 10% left at home. Sometimes it's like I can give 50 feet and you know it's not an issue. Some days I have got to deal with my familial obligations and it's going to maybe only be a 25 day for the work life and the business life is going to get the rest of it and I think that when you work yourself into an organization that you're happy and comfortable with, that, it allows for me as a leader to have that type of balance, but it also allows for me to provide and allow that type of balance to the people that work with us. Chris: Yes, but we can do a whole episode on work the myth of work life balance. You know it's to me the word balance is probably the worst word you could use for that. I think it's work life integration. Amber: Exactly. Chris: Yeah, it's a way you know there's no you know, and that it all changes depending on your stage of life as well. We used to have work-life balance in our core values. We changed that because what we realized is that's not really a corporate culture, it's more of a personal value or culture, right, because it depends on life. If you're in your late 20s versus your late 40s, your world is different and the way you balance things is going to be very different. Amber: Greatly different. It's so ironic that you say that we have. We used to have some meetings with new hires where we would tell them you know, this is kind of what's been working for their lives, some of the upper leadership and management and early on those 20-somethings we're hearing, if you just make all of your work friends, your own friends, then you'll be fine, which, they heard. Lose your friends because we're going to take over your life, right, and it's like that's not what we're saying. What we actually mean is that you will find a balance there where you do genuinely enjoy hanging out with people that you work with or people that you do business with, and you will find a balance in that and that's a little bit of the integration, but also that you'll be able to give and take where and when you need throughout the day and week. So yeah, it's a. The word balance, I just think in general, is hilarious. It's a funny word, but I do think it's great that we all keep trying. Chris: Well, that's the point, right. As you said, every day's a little different. Do you find the way to make it work and integrate both? And so, yeah, some days are 90 work, 10 families, some are 90 family, 10 work and everything in between. Amber: Yeah, it's funny Brené Brown talks about like in marriage it's not 50, 50,. Like she walks in at home and is like I got 70 today and he's like cool, I got your other 30. And it works like that and I feel like that very much in the office and I think if, if we could all just be honest and stop calling these workplaces families right. Like this is not our family. These are the company that we work for and we enjoy very much the people that we work with, but we all have families at home and you know it's important that they feel as much love as the people that we enjoy working with on a regular basis. And you know it's going to wave and it's going to ebb and flow, but I think that's part of what life is. Chris: That's so true. Okay, this has been really great conversation. I love the hearing in which all are doing to help companies you know, move forward, be innovative in their space. I want to turn now the last minute or so. Just some fun stuff to know about you. So tell us what was your first job. Amber: I ditched school at 14 to go get lunch at Subway and I left with a job. Chris: So, but instead of ordering a sandwich, you got behind the counter. Amber: I ate my sandwich. And then that on car sued offered me a job and I left at 14 as a Subway sandwich artist. My mom was not very pleased that she had to drive me to and from the subway on multiple times a week, but it was a great first job. I loved it. Chris: Okay, did you stay with school? Amber: Yeah, oh, of course yes. No it was an after school job. Chris: I got you. I got you All right. So you're new to Texas. But I ask all my guests do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Amber: Oh my gosh, I can't even say Tex-Mex, like I feel like I need there to be Mexican food here. So we're just going to default to barbecue, for sure, absolutely. Chris: So you have not adjusted to Tex-Mex. Amber: You know what? I'm 40 years, a Californian, and I don't know that I ever will. I was laughing because they were doing the best tacos in Texas. A little blurb the other day on the news and I was like they're in the wrong state for the best taco competition. This is not where they live, but I'm sorry, I do love your eyes as barbecue. Chris: That's okay. That's okay, we'll forgive you. We will agree to disagree on that. Amber: Okay, all right, you have bomb queso, though I'll give you that. Chris: Okay, we'll meet you, you all, don't have queso in California. Amber: Not like you guys do. You have it at like every Mexican restaurant. It's not a thing there really, oh sure. Chris: I mean, I think the first real food both of my daughters had like at a week old was queso. Amber: We started early. Chris: Yeah, so okay, If you could take a 30-day sabbatical, what would you? Where would you go? What would you do? Amber: Ooh, that's an excellent question. I feel like I would probably go just get an Airbnb in France and just spend a couple of weeks just living life there, cruising around on the bike, traveling with my family, working, painting, just being. I think we spend so much time following a calendar. I would love to just kind of float and see what happens when we're creative without the schedule. Chris: That's where. Amber: I come from and we don't do enough of it. Chris: Sadly, you're right, Amber. This has been awesome. It's been a pleasure, you know, hearing your story, tangram story. Thank you for all the insights you've provided and just wish all the best of luck as you grow your business here in Texas. Amber: Thank you so much, chris, we appreciate it. Chris: All right, take care.

Patrick answers listener questions about atonement of sins, cohabitation, prophecy, and where exactly in time and space is hell, Heaven, and purgatory? Helen (email) – When our spirit leaves our body, how do we atone for our sins? Ben - Am I supporting cohabitation of my son who is wanting to move in with his girlfriend? We are thinking about renting our house to a young couple that is not yet married. Is that okay? Gaby – My son wanted to move in with his girlfriend and we were adamant that he didn't. They are now married in the Catholic Church! Mac (email) – Is the Pope's upcoming visit to Russia a prophecy from the 1960s? Adam - Where are hell and heaven and purgatory located? Chris - How can Christ judge multiple people who die at once for the particular judgment?

Chris - Why do you think SaaS security is so overlooked in the conversation around cloud security, despite SaaS being so pervasive?Chris - SaaS obviously involves a lot of third-party integrations. What are the risks o f these ungoverned integrations and can they have a cascading impact if one of the providers has an incident?Nikki -  Chris and I have talked a lot about software security, SBOM's, and what does open source security look like. As a leader in the cybersecurity community, what are you most concerned with when it comes to third-party risk and software supply chain?Nikki - When we talk about SaaS and application management at organizations, what do you think about how SaaS applies to building relationships and working together with other organizations?  Nikki -  When it comes to integration between SaaS products and a cloud infrastructure, what do you think about as far as risk and how to manage risk within organizations? Chris - If we're trying to handle threats, how important is it to understand integrations from the perspective of who created it, why, what data it involves etc?Chris - How do organizations start to get a handle on governing SaaS and their third-party integrations to mitigate these risks? Nikki -  I see you posting recently about exercise/fitness - this is a topic Chris and I discuss often. The balance of physical well-being and being present at work. What do you think about the balance of physical and mental pursuits?  Nikki -  What does cyber resilience mean to you?

Today, I'm joined by Rob Carver for the weekly trend following conversation, where we reflect on the takeaways from the CTA series and the performance of the year so far. We discuss parameter and markets selection through research and testing and why Rob dislikes stops in moving average systems, what happens if a brokerage firm fails. We also discuss why you have to be cautious when using dynamic position sizing and Rob's advice for using backtesting, how articles from big financial media often creates a false or skewed narrative in the way they present data and information, why adding a lot of instruments to your portfolio is not as good an idea as it might seem. And finally we discuss Rob's latest article in the Financial Times and much more.----------EXCEPTIONAL RESOURCE: Find Out How to Build a Safer & Better Performing Portfolio using this FREE NEW Portfolio Builder Tool----Follow Niels on Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube or via the TTU website.IT's TRUE ? – most CIO's read 50+ books each year – get your FREE copy of the Ultimate Guide to the Best Investment Books ever written here.And you can get a free copy of my latest book “The Many Flavors of Trend Following” here.Learn more about the Trend Barometer here.Send your questions to info@toptradersunplugged.comAnd please share this episode with a like-minded friend and leave an honest Rating & Review on iTunes or Spotify so more people can discover the podcast.Follow Rob on Twitter.Episode TimeStamps: 02:19 - Reflecting on the TTU CTA series 04:57 - Performance update 09:59 - Q1, Gene: Question about underfitting and overfitting 16:47 - Q2, James: What types of stops are commonly used in moving average systems? 18:49 - Q3, Chris: How far back do you go in backtesting? 22:20 - Q4.1, Kyle: What happens if an FCM goes belly up? 26:37 - Q4.2, Kyle: Questions regarding "Following the Trend" by Andreas Clenow39:22 - Applying a commission rate for your backtest 44:22 - Q5.1, Matthijs: The optimal moment to roll a contract? 46:14 - Q5.2, Matthijs: View on adding a defensive strategy to a multi-strat CTA? 47:52 - Q5.3, Matthijs:

Patrick answers listener questions about novenas, how does the soul suffer in hell if there is no physical body, and he stresses the importance and responsibility of fulfilling our Sunday obligation Dan - What is the power of the novena? What is a novena? Jeff - Why are diocese inconsistent when it comes to the sin of missing Mass Marie - What should I say in a letter asking to take down a Gay Pride Board in the children's section at my local public library? Joseph – I turned on my radio 30 seconds before you mentioned something that really helped me and was an answer to my prayer. Relevant Radio is great! Chris - How will the soul feel suffering and/or joy after we die without having a physical body? Mike - I denied a friend, who had an abortion the ability, to stay at our house. Was that right of me to do? Nick - What is a reasonable effort to go to Mass? Patrick stresses the importance and responsibility of fulfilling our Sunday obligation Leo - My sister is dying right now but I don't feel anything it. She treated her kids badly, which I am upset about it. What should I do?

Today's show features the topic of REJECTION. Mathew asks Chris: How many times have you been rejected and what big idea that you had was rejected? Chris shares stories of rejection throughout the years. We assume that nobody has been rejected, specially with the social media highlight reel - but we all experience it and we have to learn to pivot. Also in this episode: Chris talks about the Maslow's hierarchy of needs and how it affects our lives Mathew and Chris discuss the difference between comparing ourselves to others and getting motivated by others Mathew and Chris go into the topic of failure Mathew shares what it's been like to work with inmates Chris talks about his mission to help others and how this resulted into Move 1 Million Go to https://betterhelp.com/ineededthat for 10% off your first month of therapy with BetterHelp and get matched with a therapist who will listen and help #sponsored Thanks for checking out our podcast and please don't forget to follow along on Instagram at @ineededthatpodcast

Are you letting fear hold you back from reaching your greatest goals? Let's talk about how to reverse that. In this episode of The Modern Man, I welcome Christopher Dedeyan, a peak performance coach, professional speaker, and advocate for learning disabilities. Chris specializes in helping top tier individuals and entrepreneurs hit peak performance in their personal and professional lives.   Chris is proof that people with learning disabilities or difficult upbringings are more than capable of creating a successful career for themselves. It takes resiliency and the willingness to uncover and utilize your biggest strengths.   Listen in as Chris shares his story with Dyslexia and tells us his secrets for confidently pursuing anything you want to succeed in. He describes the importance of habits and rituals in being your best self and how to use fear as a compass for your life.   Even if everyone thinks you're crazy or incapable of achieving your goals and dreams… if you step out of your comfort zone and build resilience within yourself, you CAN do it.   “Now, I can very confidently say the main reason why I succeeded is because I am dyslexic and I learned to be relentless.” – Christopher Dedeyan   Key Takeaways / What You'll Learn: [01:09] About Christopher Dedeyan. [02:59] His experience being diagnosed with Dyslexia & How he adapted to his learning disability and found his ideal career. [11:34] The powerful benefits of having an adaptable mindset when you're facing career/business challenges. [16:27] Why you need to do things that scare you. [20:41] If we increase our capacity for life, we're more likely to show up when life gets hard. So, how do you do that? [25:20] Success = Habits + Rituals (+ two days MAX of wiggle room) [29:11] Why Chris has 8 coaches and mentors. [34:34] How to connect with Chris + How to get a free 30-minute coaching call with him. [36:51] What life experience has shaped the way you view the world as a man?   If you enjoyed this episode, please SHARE it with a friend, then RATE/REVIEW The Modern Man on Apple Podcasts or Spotify!   Resources Mentioned: Schedule your FREE 30-minute coaching call with Chris: link needed Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555   Connect with Christopher: Visit his website: https://www.christopherdedeyan.com Listen to The Peak Performance Greatness Show: https://www.christopherdedeyan.com/tppgs   Follow him on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/christopherdedeyan Subscribe to his YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChYsxip-UNPFydaDReRjsVQ Connect with Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherdedeyan   Connect with The Modern Man: Visit our website: https://themodernmanshow.com Join our Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/244885633101820 Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheModernMan8 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_modernman_show Subscribe to our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnyA3-wtyv7xVqUbPyB0eOg   About The Modern Man: “The Modern Man” is a series focused on discussing the challenges and obstacles men face in today's society. It is an open forum of discussion where thoughts, strategies and ideas of men living a happy and fulfilled life are explored.   The Modern Man aims to create a community of men not only sharing and connecting on a deeper level, but also exploring how to thrive and tap into their limitless potential. This is done through intentional conversations strategically aimed at issues that men face in today's society.

Nikki: To start us off, I'm curious about your opinion on the current state of vulnerability management guidance and documentation available for organizations. There are some references from NIST, but a lot of it centers around compliance. Chris: How do you think things such as Cloud, DevSecOps and shift-left security have changed vulnerability management? Nikki: Can you talk a little bit about what organizations and their vulnerability management programs should be working on right now? With more sophistication of attacks by malicious actors, we have to create more Chris: Most of us know the Common Vulnerability Scoring System (CVSS) but many critique it saying CVSS scores alone aren't enough to drive vulnerability prioritization. What role do you think things such as Threat Intelligence should play?Chris: In addition to CVSS CISA recently has been making a push to evangelize the Stakeholder-Specific Vulnerability Categorization (SSVC) guide. Can you tell us a bit about it and your thoughts about how it fits into the conversation on vulnerability scoring and prioritization? Nikki: There is a renewed focus on exploitable vulnerabilities, with the Known Exploited Vulnerabilities catalog by CISA, as well as the EPSS, or Exploit Prediction Scoring System - do you think we're headed in the right direction with helping to prioritize vulnerabilities and not just remediate everything?

How can we best align the goals of employees and owners? It's an age-old problem of a principal-agent relationship. But there is a promising trend that could really align incentives between employees and owners. It's by making employees owners! We decided to invite two d.MBA alumni, Sandra Fernandez and Chris How to share how employee ownership works in their companies. We talked about: what even are employee-owned companies, what are the benefits and drawbacks for employees and companies, and the advice Sandra and Chris would give to others who are in the position to suggest or adopt the employee ownership program.   www.d.mba

The Bellingham Podcast is a listener supported podcast. For full show notes with links, photos, videos, and more be sure to support AJ & Chris and consider becoming a subscriber to the Bellingham Podcast on Substack | BellinghamPodcast.Substack.com. The Chatter AJMeeting a GPO

Patrick answers listener questions about going to a same-sex “wedding,” what are the different Rites of the Church and why do they exist, are Greek orthodox baptism valid, and if it's okay for the Mass orchestra to sound like Rock and Roll? Caesar - My niece is getting married to a woman. We are all Catholic but I don't know what I should do? Michelle (09:45) - What are the different Rites of the Church and why do they exist? George (18:29) - I bought a calendar with Rogation Days. What are Rogation Days? Angela - What day does the Sabbath fall on? Susan - Are Greek orthodox baptisms valid? Bill - What are your thoughts on the Mormon Church accepting same sex marriage? Raphael - The Mass here has an orchestra with a snare drum. It doesn't seem right. What should I do? Lynn - My nephew is not living as a Catholic and married a man. They are having a baby via in vitro with another family member and are having a baby shower. Can we attend? Leo - How should I reach out to politicians in respect to the Respect for Marriage Bill? Maribel - Why does the priest wash his hands after communion but the Eucharistic ministers don't? Peter - What are your thoughts on “Donor Egg Adoption?” Chris - How do Catholics traditionally celebrate the Feast of Christ the King?

[00:03:00] NEWS [00:03:19] Aircraft Accident Canadair CL-215-6B11 (CL-415) I-DPCN Linguaglossa, Sicily [00:11:08] Cuban Defector Flies Stolen An-2 To Florida [00:16:16] COPA B738 at Panama City on Sep 25th 2022, Runway Excursion on Landing [00:23:48] FINAL REPORT - Incident: Transcarga A30B at Bogota on Mar 11th 2021, Rejected Takeoff Due to Uncontained Engine Failure [00:29:28] Vaping Man Kicked Off Plane [00:35:26] FEEDBACK [00:35:38] Mohammed - ATC Day in Baghdad, Iraq [00:43:49] Sam - Dizzy Pilots [00:46:27] Brewcrafter John - Altimeter Settings [00:51:42] JJ Pittsburgh - Exercise on Layovers? [00:59:03] Greg - Future of Aircraft Engines [01:04:17] GETTING TO KNOW US [01:34:20] COFFEE FUND [01:36:39] Texas Charlie - Southwest Captain Strips Naked in "Prank" [01:46:14] Sam - It's All Ball Bearings [01:48:08] Alex from California- On the Subject of Rockets as Airliner Propulsion [01:54:15] Kevin - My Introduction and My First Trip With Acme [01:57:47] Texas Anla'Shok - Mickey Mouse One [02:06:22] Chris - How are Passenger and Baggage Weights Calculated? [02:15:11] Tim W - Security of Documents on Layovers Overseas [02:30:29] Anonymous - Student Locking on the Controls [02:32:07] Spencer - Students Locking Up on Controls [02:37:10] Bruce - Update on My Niece Christina [02:39:58] Keith Carlson and Tim Qualls - Meet Up @ North Little Rock Airshow VIDEO Don't see the video? Click this to watch it on YouTube! ABOUT RADIO ROGER “Radio Roger” Stern has been a TV and Radio reporter since he was a teenager. He's won an Emmy award for his coverage in the New York City Market. Currently you can hear his reporting in New York on radio station 1010 WINS, the number one all-news station in the nation. Nationally you can hear him anchor newscasts on the Fox News Radio Network and on Fox's Headlines 24-7 service on Sirius XM Radio. In addition Roger is a proud member of and contributor to the APG community. Give us your review in iTunes! I'm "airlinepilotguy" on Facebook, and "airlinepilotguy" on Twitter. feedback@airlinepilotguy.com airlinepilotguy.com "Appify" the Airline Pilot Guy website (http://airlinepilotguy.com) on your phone or tablet! ATC audio from http://LiveATC.net Intro/outro Music, Coffee Fund theme music by Geoff Smith thegeoffsmith.com Dr. Steph's intro music by Nevil Bounds Capt Nick's intro music by Kevin from Norway (aka Kevski) Doh De Oh by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) Source: http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1100255 Artist: http://incompetech.com/ Copyright © AirlinePilotGuy 2022, All Rights Reserved Airline Pilot Guy Show by Jeff Nielsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License

Summary Our guest is Chris Michael Harris, founder of StartupU and host of the StartupU Podcast. ABOUT THE EPISODE Chris Michael Harris is the founder of StartupU, an interactive, online learning platform that teaches entrepreneurs how to take an idea or an existing business and turn it into a highly successful and profitable company. But Chris wasn't always a successful leader. In his late 20s, Chris was suffering from severe health issues, which took a toll emotionally, physically, and mentally. His body was shutting down, and he struggled with suicidal thoughts. Doctors warned him he'd be gone by age 50 without making drastic changes to his lifestyle.   In this episode, Chris shares what it took to turn his life around, and find balance in his personal and professional life as well as some of the more experimental things he's tried to expand his consciousness and achieve his full potential. What We Discuss with Chris: How to avoid becoming too attached to your career Why your ego may be preventing you from being happy Why he believes some psychedelics are powerful tools that help his own mental health  Why meditation and breathwork are beneficial for mental health Gut health and how much serotonin in your brain is produced in your gut. Don't let the conversation end there. Join us in our Facebook Group where you and fellow Fit Mess listeners can connect for monthly challenges, accountability to reach your goals, and a supportive community.  Like this show? Please leave us a review here – even one sentence helps! Post a screenshot of you listening on Instagram & tag us so we can thank you personally! Resources: Guest Website Get your Free One Year Supply of Vitamin D + 5 Travel Packs from Athletic Greens! Contact Us IF YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE, CHECK OUT: Learn the Secret to Turning Your Pain Into Your Superpower with Jill McAbe

This is one you CANNOT miss! Lauren Tickner interviews Chris Voss. Chris Voss is best known for his work as the lead hostage negotiator for the FBI and writing the bestselling book “Never Split The Difference”. Lauren and Chris are going to share how you can ensure that you always get the outcome you want, or better. The negotiation skills you're going to learn in this episode are going to help you make more money, grow your business, broker bigger deals, and improve the quality of your life overall. In this episode, you'll hear: - Some of the key lessons Chris Voss has learned from his experience as an FBI hostage negotiator - Lauren's live hostage negotiation role play with Chris - How you can practice your tonality and mirroring in order to close more sales over the phone - How you can overcome objections on sales calls by understanding the foundational concepts of negotiation and psychology Time Stamps 0:00 - Introduction 02:50 - Chris shares a story about a time that he didn't get the outcome he wanted during a hostage negotiation and what he learned from that failure 06:15 - The importance of understanding the foundational principles of negotiation and not just negotiation tactics 07:20 - What content would Chris add to his book, “Never Split The Difference”, if he were to write it again today? 12:45 - Chris shares 2 of the most important questions you need to ask on sales calls 17:00 - How Lauren trains her sales team to effectively use doubt when negotiating with prospects 18:00 - Chris shares how you can practice your tonality in order to close more sales calls 20:40 - How does Chris stay calm when making high stakes calls and negotiations? 22:40 - How to keep your negotiation skills sharp through teaching and role play 25:00 - Lauren and Chris go through a hostage negotiation role play 37:30 - 3 strategies that you can use to negotiate more effectively 40:50 - Chris Voss - “In any business deal, getting a yes means nothing without a how” 45:05 - Lauren and Chris role play a sales call - how to overcome objections on a sale call when your prospect says they aren't able to invest in your offer Subscribe to Impact School on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2wJpmySw3FtVe5uvT2kaAR Subscribe to Impact School on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/impact-school-with-lauren-tickner/id1396015659 ► CONNECT WITH LAUREN TICKNER ON SOCIAL MEDIA: • Instagram: @laurentickner https://www.instagram.com/laurentickner • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurentickner • Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/laurentickner

Chris Chappell of UCS joins the podcast to discuss the recent World Championships and Mondo's new World Record! I ask Chris How it feels to be the company that provides the poles for so many record breaking performances. As always if you enjoy the podcast please subscribe and share! Also if you have any comments or questions please email us at apexvaulting@gmail.com

Today, we are answering more podcast questions during a Facebook Live. Many of these questions focus on your podcast production. We talk about intros, music, editing, length, video and more. If you would like to refine your podcast production process, there are surely a few tips in here for you. All of the production resources I mention in this episode are in the show notes at www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/podcasts. RESOURCES MENTIONS Podcast Talent Coach resources/affiliates - www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/jv Introduction template – www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/intro Editing services - www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/editing Royalty Free Music - https://royalty-free-music.bandcamp.com/ Launch your podcast in 30 days or less – July 24th – www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/podcastfast LAUNCH Before we start answering questions, let me invite you to my next training. Are you ready to launch your podcast? Or, do you know somebody that really wants to launch? I have a free training coming up that will show you how to get a show up and running in one month. If you want to launch your podcast in 30 days, join me for my free training "How to Launch a Podcast in 30 Days or Less to Attract Your Ideal Clients." It is free to register and it happens on Sunday, July 24th at 7p CDT. You can register at www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/podcastfast. EXPENSES AND INTERVIEWS How can you start a podcast for free? I need to quickly test out ideas before putting money and time into publishing one. What's the best way to do that? - Sean Any tips for interviews? - Ryan If your show is an interview-based show, what are the three things I need to think about when recruiting new guests? From the perspective of the ... the audience (benefit, engagement, transformation, emotion) the host (what do you want to accomplish? How will you incorporate you?) and the goals of the show? (how does it help your drive business? How does the guest add value) - Oscar PODCAST PRODUCTION Many asked questions about podcast production this week. As you work to refine your production process, these tips will help. Looking for advice on "live" editing. I record and edit my podcast in Audition. All episodes are scripted, because I learned that if I just wing it with a loose outline then I have a LOT of editing to do. But even when scripted the editing takes me forever. I record first and edit later, usually on another day. This isn't working. I don't like editing, and it's still hours of work to edit a 45 minute audio file. - Danny I'm only 6 episodes in. My first episode was rough, not real good. But it has 40 downloads and the next 5 have less than 20 each. So I'm thinking since that first episode was so weak, that I'm not getting repeat listeners. Should I just delete episode one? - Greg Do you post YouTube versions of your podcast? I've started doing this, just as a static image with subtitles. - Craig How important is a podcast name? - Cliff Do you recommend having someone else do you intro? Someone with a terrific speaking voice? - Chris How did you get your podcast music and intro outro? - Jennifer How did you determine the length of your podcast? - Danielle I'm in search of greater podcast revenue. I was wondering if you have done commission based ads? You read the ad w/ a unique discount code, every sale, you earn $xx? - Jim PODCAST LAUNCH If you want to launch your podcast in 30 days, join me for my free training "How to Launch a Podcast in 30 Days or Less to Attract Your Ideal Clients." It is free to register and it happens on Sunday, July 24th at 7p CDT. You can register at www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/podcastfast.   If you don't have a mentor who can take your hand and walk you every step of the way, go to www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/apply, click the button and apply to have a chat with me. We will develop your plan and see how I can help and support you to achieve your podcast goals.

About ChristinaChristina Conklin is an artist, researcher and writer. As a former religious studies major, she spends a lot of time exploring the intersections of belief systems and natural systems. She shares deep insights, stunning artworks, and terrifying research from her latest book, The Atlas of Disappearing Places. Show Notes At the very end of this podcast, AllCreation producer Chris Searles jumps in with a final question for Christina.  Click here to see the video of Christina's presentation, including the slides she shares from 12:00-38:00. References Deep Time Stephen Jay Gould The Life Timeline Deep Ecology Arne Naess Deep Adaptation The Atlas of Disappearing Places (book) Jeremy Lent The Deep Transformation Network  Deep Adaptation Network  Global Colab Transition Towns Breakthrough Communities Program0:00 Welcome & IntroTERMS1:40 What do “Deep Ecology, Deep Adaptation, and Deep Time” mean?THE OCEAN5:10 What important roles does the ocean play and how is everyone on Earth connected to it?8:30 What are some parallels between the Oceans, bodies of water, and our own bodies — also bodies of waterCHRISTINA'S SLIDE PRESENTATION 12:00 “THE ATLAS OF DISAPPEARING PLACES: OUR COAST AND OCEANS IN THE CLIMATE CRISIS"To see the video or this presentation go here (link coming later today).FOLLOW UP 36:00 If the ocean were a body, how sick would it be?38:45 How optimistic are you we can make the changes we need to?CHRISTINA'S ARTWORK44:00 It's stunningly beautiful, tell us more DEEP TRANSFORMATION46:00 What are your hopes from participating in the Deep Transformation Network?48:30 (An interruption from producer Chris) How does the metaphor of “restoring connective tissue” relate to your ecological work and understanding?52:00 Wrap UpQuotesWe're used to thinking in terms of decades and centuries, but really we're on this much bigger timeline of Life, and I like locating myself on that timeline, it's more grounding to me. Seeing the continuity between humans and other species, AlLL the way back into the algae, right? Let's go ALL the way back and see the continuity.We're pretty sick and headed toward the hospital.So much of what needs to happen is a paradigm shift where we re-member, Re-Member, like “belong again to the world,” and stop the idea of extraction, mastery of resources… All of these ideas came from a specific place and time in history. They have not always existed. It is not necessarily capital T, truth, in any sense.Every religion in the world has pointed to humanity's role as stewards of nature, as parts OF the natural order.In much of the Developing World this is real right now.The planetary systems are remarkably resilient. if you just leave them alone for a little while, they will find their homeostatic place again. We saw that with Covid. So, we really do have the opportunity to write new stories.I think it's about everybody waking up and doing everything they can. It's now. Now is the time.Thanks for listening. This podcast is 1 of 4 keynotes from our Summer Solstice 2022 collection, "Restoring Connective Tissue." It was produced and edited by Chris Searles. 

Another toaster strudel debate?! Plus, the results are in for the most listened-to podcast in the RoR community! :: drum roll :: Steph has a "Dear Gerrit" message to share. Chris has a follow-up on mobile app strategy. The Bike Shed: 328: Terrible Simplicity (https://www.bikeshed.fm/328) When To Fetch: Remixing React Router - Ryan Florence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95B8mnhzoCM) Virtual Event - Save Time & Money with Discovery Sprints (https://thoughtbot.com/events/save-time-money-with-discovery) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: STEPH: thoughtbot's next virtual event "Save Time & Money with Discovery Sprints" is coming up on June 17th, from 2 - 3 PM Eastern. It's a discussion with team members from product management, design and development. From a developer perspective, topics will include how to plan a product's architecture, both the MVP and future version, how to lead a tech spikes into integrations and conduct a build vs buy reviews of third party providers. Head to thoughtbot.com/events to register, the event is June 17th 2 - 3 PM ET. Even if you can't make it, registering will get you on the list for the recording. CHRIS: We're the second-best. We're the second-best. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: I'm very happy to report that I picked up a treat from the store recently. So while I was in Boston and we were hanging out in person, we talked about Pop-Tarts because that always comes up as a debate, as it should. And then also Toaster Strudels came up, so I now have a package of Toaster Strudels, and those are legit. Pop-Tart or Toaster Strudel, I am team Toaster Strudel, which I know you're going to ask me about icing and if I put it on there, so go ahead. I'm going to pause. [laughs] CHRIS: It sounds like I don't even need to say anything. But yes, inquiring minds want to know. STEPH: I think that's also my very defensive response because yes, I put icing on my Toaster Strudel. CHRIS: How interesting. [laughs] STEPH: But it feels like a whole different class of pastry. So I'm very defensive about my stance on Pop-Tarts with no icing put Strudel with icing. CHRIS: A whole different class of pastry. Got it. Noted. Understood. So did you travel? Like, were these in your luggage that you flew back with? STEPH: [laughs] Oh no. They would be all gooey and melty. No, we bought them when we got back to North Carolina. Oh, that'd be a pro move; just pack little individual Strudels as your airplane snack. Ooh, I might start doing that now. That sounds like a great airplane snack. CHRIS: You got to be careful though if the icing, you know, if it's pressurized from ground level and then you get up there, and it explodes. And you gotta be careful. Or is it the reverse? It's lower pressure up in the plane. So it might explode. STEPH: [laughs] Either way, it might explode. CHRIS: Well, yeah. If you somehow buy a packet of icing that is sky icing that is at that pressure, and you bring it down, then...but if you take it up and down, I think it's fine. If you open it at the top, you might be in danger. If you open icing under the ocean, I think nothing's going to happen. So these are the ranges that we're playing with. STEPH: I will be very careful sky icing and probably pack two so that way I have a backup just in case. So if one explodes, we'll be like, all right, now I know what I'm working with and be more prepared for the next one. CHRIS: That's just smart. STEPH: I try to make smart travel decisions, Toaster Strudels on the go. Aside from travel treats and sky icing, I have some news regarding Planet Argon, who is a Ruby on Rails consultancy regarding their latest published this year's Ruby on Rails community survey results. And so they list a lot of fabulous different topics in there. And one of them includes a learning section that highlights most listened to podcasts in the Ruby on Rails community as well as blogs and some other resources. And Bike Shed is listed as the second most listened to podcast in the Ruby on Rails community, so whoo, golf clap. CHRIS: Fantastic. STEPH: And in addition to that, the thoughtbot blog got a really nice shout-out. So the thoughtbot blog is in the number two spot for the most visited blogs in the community. In the first spot is Ruby Weekly, which is like, you know, okay, that feels fair, that feels good. So it's really exciting for the thoughtbot blog because a lot of people work really hard on curating and creating that content. So that's wonderful that so many people are enjoying it. And then I should also highlight that for the podcast in first place is Remote Ruby, so congrats to Chris, Jason, and Andrew for grabbing that number one spot. And Brittany Martin, host of the Ruby on Rails Podcast, along with Brian Mariani, Jemma Issroff, and Nick Schwaderer, are in the number three spot. And some people say that Ruby is losing steam but look at all that content and all those highly ranked podcasts. I mean, we like Ruby so much we're spending time recording ourselves talking about it. So I say long live Ruby, long live Rails. CHRIS: Yes. Long live Ruby indeed. And yeah, it's definitely an honor to be on the list and to be amongst such other wonderful shows. Certainly big fans of the work of those other podcasts. We even did a joint adventure with them at one point, and that was a really wonderful experience, so yeah, honored to be on the list alongside them. And to have folks out there in the world listening to our tech talk and nonsense always nice to hear. STEPH: Yeah. You and I show up and say lots of silly things and technical things into the podcast. The true heroes are the ones that went and voted. So thank you to everybody who voted. That's greatly appreciated. It's really nice feedback. Because we get listener responses and questions, and those are wonderful because it lets us know that people are listening. But I have to say that having the survey results is also really nice. It lets us know people like the show. Oh, but I did go back and look at some of the previous stats because then I was like, huh, so I'm paying attention. I looked at this year's, and I was like, I wonder what last year's was or the year before that. And I think this survey comes out every two years because I didn't see one for 2021. But I did find the survey results for 2020, which we were in the number one spot for 2020, and Remote Ruby was in the second spot. So I feel like now we've got a really nice, healthy podcasting war situation going on to see who can grab the first spot. We've got two years, everybody, to see who [laughs] grabs the number one spot. That's a lot of prep time for a competition. CHRIS: Yeah, I feel like we should be like, I don't know, planning elaborate pranks on them or something like that now. Is that where this is at? It's something like that, I think. STEPH: I think so. I think this is where you put like sky frosting inside someone's suitcase, and that's the type of prank that you play. [laughs] CHRIS: The best of pranks. STEPH: We'll definitely put together a little task force. And we'll start thinking of pranks that we all need to start playing on each other for the podcasting wars that we're entering for the next few years. But anywho, what's going on in your world? CHRIS: Let's see, what's going on in my world? A fun thing happened recently. I had a chance to reflect back on some architectural choices that we've made in the Sagewell platform. And one of those specific choices is how we've approached building our native mobile apps. We made what some listeners may remember is an interesting set of choices. In particular, in Episode 328, which we'll include a link to in the show notes, I shared with you the approach that we're doing, which is basically like, Inertia is great, web user great. We like the web as a platform. What if we were to wrap it in a native shell and find this interesting and somewhat unique hybrid trade-off point? And so, at that point, we were building it. We had most of it built out, and things were going quite well. I think we maybe had the iOS app in the store and the Android app approaching the store or something like that. At this point, both apps have been released to the store, so they are live. Production users are signing in. It's wonderful. But I had a moment in the past couple of weeks to reassess or look at that set of choices and evaluate it. And thankfully, I'm happy with the choices that we've made. So that's good. But to get into the specifics, there were two things that happened that really, really framed the choice that we made, so one was we introduced a major new feature. We basically overhauled the first-run experience, the onboarding that users experience, and added a new, pretty fundamental facet to the platform. It's a bunch of new screens, and flows, and error states, and all of this complexity. And in the process, we iterated on it a bunch. Like, first, it looked like this, and then we changed the order of the screens and switched out the error messages, and et cetera, et cetera. And I'll be honest, we never even thought about the mobile apps. It just wasn't even a consideration. And interestingly, we did as a final check before going fully live and releasing this out to the full production audience; we did spot check it in the mobile apps, and it didn't work. But it didn't work for a very specific, boring, technical reason that we were able to resolve. It has to do with iframes and WebViews and embedded something, something. And we had to set a flag. Thankfully, it was solvable without a deploy of the native mobile apps. And otherwise, we never thought about the native apps. Specifically, we were able to add this fundamental set of features to our platform. And they just worked in native mobile. And they were the same as they roughly are if you're on a mobile WebView or if you're on a desktop web, you know, slightly different in terms of form factor. But the functionality was all the same. And critically, the error states and the edge cases and the flow, there's so much to think about when you're adding a nontrivial feature to an app. And the fact that we didn't have to consider it really spoke to the choice that we made here. And again, to name it, the choice that we made is we're basically just reusing the same WebViews, the same Rails controllers, and the same what are Svelte components under the hood but the same essentially view layer as well. And we are wrapping that in a native iOS. It's a Swift application shell, and on Android, it's a Kotlin application shell. But under the hood, it's the same web stuff. And that was really great. We just got these new features. And you know what? If we have to rip that whole set of functionality out, again, we won't need to deploy. We won't need to rethink it. Or, if we want to subtly tweak it, we can do that. If we want to think about feature flags or analytics, or error states or error reporting, all of this just naturally falls out of the approach that we took. And that was really wonderful. STEPH: That's super nice. I also love this saga of like, you made a choice, and then you're coming back to revisit and share how it's going. So as someone who's never done this before, in regards of wrapping an application in the manner that you have and then publishing it and distributing it that way, what does that process look like? Is this one of those like you run a command, and literally, it's going to wrap the application and then make it hostable on the different mobile app stores? Or what's that? Am I oversimplifying the process? What does that look like? CHRIS: I think there are a lot of platforms or frameworks I think would probably be the better word like Capacitor is something that comes to mind or Ionic or Expo. There are a handful of them that are a little more fully featured in what they provide. So you just point us at your React Views and whatnot, and we'll wrap that up, and it'll be great. But those are for, I may be overgeneralizing here, but my understanding is those are for more heavy client-side bundles that are talking to a common API. And so you're basically taking your same rich client-side application and bundling that up for reuse on the native app, the native app platforms. And so I think those do have some release to the store sort of thing. In our case, we went a little bit further with that integration wrapper thing that we built. So that is a thing that we maintain. We have a Sagewell iOS repo and a Sagewell Android repo. There's a bunch of Swift and Kotlin code, respectively, in each of them, and we deploy to the stores manually. We're doing that whole process. But critically, the code that is in each of those repositories is just the bridge glue code that says, oh, when this Inertia navigation event happens, I'm going to push a WebView to the navigation stack. And that's what that is. I'm going to render the tab bar of buttons at the bottom with the navigation elements that I get from the server. But it's very much server-driven UI, is the way that I would describe it. And it's wrapping WebViews versus actually having the whole client bundle wrapped up in the thing. It's unfortunately subtle to try and talk through on the radio, but yeah. [laughs] STEPH: You're doing great; this is helping. So if there's a change that you want to make, you go to the Rails application, and you make that change. And then do you need to update anything on that iOS repo? It sounds like you don't, which then you don't have to push a new update to the store. CHRIS: Correct. For the vast majority of things, we do not need to make any changes. It's very rare for us to deploy the iOS or the Android app is a different way to put it or to push new releases to the store. It happens we may want to add a new feature to the sort of bridge layer that we built, but increasingly, those are rare. And now it's basically like, yeah, we're just wrapping those WebViews, and it's going great. And again, to name it, it's a trade-off. It's an intentional trade-off that we've made. We're never going to have the richest, most deep platform integration, smooth experience. We are making a small trade-off on that front. But given where we're at as an organization, given how early we are, how much iteration and change, we chose an architecture that optimizes for that change. And so again, like what you just said, yeah, I can...you know how it's really nice to be able to deploy six times a day on a web app, and that's a very straightforward thing to do? It is not so straightforward in the native mobile world. And so, we now have afforded ourselves the ability to do that. But critically, and this is the fun part in my mind, have the trade-offs in the controls. So if we were just like, it's just a WebView, and that's it, and we put it in the stores, and we're done, that is too far of an extreme in my mind. I think the performance trade-offs, the experience trade-offs, it wouldn't feel like a native app like in a deep way, in a problematic way. And so as an example, we have a navigation bar at the top of our app, particularly on iOS, that is native iOS navigation. And we have a tab bar at the bottom, which is native tab UI element. I forget actually what it's called, but it's those elements. And we hide the web application navigation when we're in the mobile context. So we actually swap those out and say, like, let's actually promote these to formal native functionality. We also, within our UI on the web, have a persistent button in the top right corner of your screen that says, "Need help? Reach out to your retirement advocate." who is the person that you get to work with. You can send questions, et cetera, et cetera. It's this little help sidebar drawer thing that pops out. And we have that as a persistent HTML button in the top corner of the web frame. But when we're on native, we push that up as a distinct element in the native UI section. And then again, the bridge that I'm talking about allows for bi-directional communication between the JavaScript side and the native side or the native side and the JavaScript side. And so it's those sorts of pieces that have now afforded us all of the freedom to tinker, and we don't need to re-release where we're like, oh, we want to add a new weird button that does a thing in the WebView when you click on a button outside the WebView. We now just have that built-in. STEPH: Yeah, I really like the flexibility that you're describing. When you promoted those elements to be more native-friendly so, like the navigation or the footer or the little get help chat, is that something that then your team implemented in like the iOS or the Kotlin repo? Okay, I see you nodding, but other people can't see that, so...[laughs] CHRIS: Yeah. I was going to also say the words, but yes, those are now implemented as native parts. So the thing that we built isn't purely agnostic decoupled. It is Sagewell-specific; a lot of it is low-level. Like, let's say we want to wrap an Inertia app in a native mobile wrapper. Like, 90% of the code in it is that, but then there are little bits that are like, and put a button up there. And that button is the Sagewell button. And so it's not entirely decoupled from us. But it mostly is this agnostic bridge to connect things together. STEPH: Yeah, the way you're describing it sounds really nice in terms of you're able to get out the app quickly and have a mobile app quickly that works on both platforms, and then you're still able to deploy changes without having to push that. That was always my biggest mental, or emotional hurdle with the idea of mobile development was the concept of that you really had to batch everything together and then submit it for review and approval and then get it released. And then you got to hope people then upgrade and get the newest version. And it just felt like such a process, not that I ever did much of it. This was all just even watching like the mobile team and all the work that they had to do. And I had sympathy pains for them. But the fact that this approach allows you to avoid a lot of that but still have some nice, customized, more native elements. Yeah, I'm basically just recapping everything you said because I like all of it. CHRIS: Well, thank you, friend. Like I said, I've really enjoyed it, and similar to you, I'm addicted to the feedback loop of the web. It's beautiful. I can deploy ten times or however many I want. Anytime I want, I can push out a new version. And that ability to iterate, to test, to explore, to tweak, to not have to do as much formal testing upfront because I'm terrified that if a bug sneaks out, then, it'll take me two weeks to address it; it just is so, so freeing. And so to give that up moving into a native context. Perhaps I'm fighting too hard to hold on to my dream of the ability to rapidly iterate. But I really do believe in that and especially for where we're at as an organization right now. But, and a critical but here, again, it's a trade-off like anything else. And recently, I happened to be out about in the town, and I decided, oh, you know what? Let me open up the app. Let me see what it's like. And I wasn't on great internet. And so I open the app, and it loads because, you know, it's a native app, so it pops up. But then the thing that actually happened is a loading spinner in the middle of the screen and sort of a gray nothing for a little while until the server request to fetch the necessary UI elements to render the login screen appeared. And that experience was not great. In particular, that experience is core to the experience of using the app every single time. Every time you use it, you're going to have a bad time because we're re-downloading that UI element. And there's caching, and there's things that could happen there to help with that. But fundamentally, that experience is going to be a pretty common one. It's the first thing that you experience when you're opening the app. And so I noticed that and I chatted with the team, and I was like, hey, I feel like this is actually something that fixing this I think would really fundamentally move us along that spectrum of like, we've definitely made some trade-offs here. But overall, it feels snappy and like a native app. And so, we opted to prioritize work on a native login screen for both platforms. This also allows us to more deeply integrate. So particularly, we're going to get biometric logins like fingerprints or face scans, or whatever it is. But critically, it's that experience of like, I open the Sagewell native app on my iOS phone, and then it loads immediately. And then I show it my face like we do these days, and then it opens up and shows me everything that I want to see inside of it. And it's that first-run experience that feels worth the extra effort and the constraints. Because now that it's native mobile, that means in order to change it, we have to do a deploy, not a deploy, release; that's what they call it in the native world. [laughs] You can tell I'm well-versed in this ecosystem. But yeah, we're now choosing that trade-off. And what I really liked about this sort of set of things like the feature that we were able to just accidentally get for free on native because that's how this thing is built. And then likewise, the choice to opt into a fully native login screen like having that lever, having that control over I'm going to optimize for iteration generally, but where it's important, we want to optimize for performance and experience. And now we have this little slider that we can go back and forth. And frankly, we could choose to screen by screen just slowly replace everything in the app with true native WebViews backed by APIs. And we could Ship of Theseus style replace every element of the app with true native mobile things until none of the old bridge code exists. And our users, in theory, would never know. Having that flexibility is really nice given the trade-off and the choice that we've made. STEPH: You said a word there that I missed. You said ship something style. CHRIS: Ship of Theseus. STEPH: What is that? CHRIS: It's like an old biblical story, I want to say, but it's basically the idea of, like, you have the ship. And then some boards start to rot out, so replace those boards. And then the mast breaks, you replace the mast. And slowly, you've replaced every element on the ship. Is it still the same ship at that point? And so it's sort of a philosophical question. So if we replace every single view in this app with a native view, is it still the same map? Philosophers will philosophize about it forever, but whatever. As long as we get to keep iterating and shipping software, then I'm happy. STEPH: [laughs] Y'all philosophize. That's that word, right? CHRIS: Yeah. STEPH: And do your philosopher thing. We'll just keep building and shipping. CHRIS: I don't know if I pronounced it right. It's like either Theseus or Theseus, and I'm sure I said the wrong one. And now that I've said the other, I'm sure both of them are wrong somehow. It's like a USB where there's up and down, and yet somehow it takes three tries. So anyway, I may have mispronounced it, and I may be misattributing it, but that's the idea I was going for. STEPH: Well, given I wasn't even familiar with the word until just now, I'm going to give both pronunciations a thumbs up. I also really like how you decided that for the login screen, that's the area that you don't want people to wait because I agree if you're opening an application or opening...maybe it's the first time, maybe it's the 100th time. Who knows? But that feels important. Like, that needs to be snappy. I need to know it's responsive. And it builds trust from the minute that I clicked on that application. And if it takes a long time, I just immediately I'm like, what are y'all doing? Are y'all real? Do you know what you're doing over there? So I like how you focused on that experience. But then once I log in, like if something is slow to log me in, I will make up excuses for the application all day where I'm like, well, you know, maybe it's my connection. It's fine. I can wait for the next screen to load. That feels more reasonable. And it doesn't undermine my trust nearly as much as when I first click on the app. So that feels like a really nice trade-off as well, or at least a nice area that you've improved while still having those other trade-offs and benefits that you mentioned. CHRIS: To highlight it, you used a phrase there which I really liked. Like, it's building trust. If something's a little bit off in that first run experience every single time, then it kind of puts a question in the back of your head, maybe not even consciously. But you're just kind of looking at it, and you're like, what are you doing there? What are you up to, friend? Humans say to the apps they use on their phone. That's normal, right? When you talk... But to name it, we've also done a round of performance work throughout the app. And so there are a couple of layers to it. But it was work that we had planned for a while, but we kept deferring. But now that we're seeing more usage of the native apps, the native apps experience the same surface area of performance stuff but all the more so because they may be on degraded network connections, et cetera. And so this is another example where this whole thing kind of pays off. The performance work that we did affects everything. It affects the web. It's the same under the hood. It's let's reduce the network requests that we're making in the payloads that we're sending, particularly the network requests to upstream things, so like the banking partner that we're using and those APIs, like, collating all the data to then render the screen. Because of Inertia, we only have a single sort of back and forth conversation via the API as opposed to I think it's pretty common to have like seven different APIs and four different spinners on the screen. We're not doing that, none of that on my watch. [chuckles] But we minimize the background calls to the other parties that we're integrating with. And then, we reduce the payload of data that we're sending on each request. And each of those were like, we had to think about things and tweak and poke, but again it's uniform. So mobile web has that now, desktop web has that now. Android, iOS, they all just inherited it sort of that just happened one day without a deploy or release, without a release of either of the native mobile apps. We did deploy to the web to make that happen, but that's easy. I can do that a bunch of times a day. One last thing I want to share as we're on this topic of trade-offs and levers, there was a really great conference talk that I watched recently, which was Ryan Florence of remix.run also React Router fame if you're familiar with him from that. But he was talking about the most recent version of Remix, which is their meta framework on top of React. But they've done some really interesting stuff around processing data, fetching data, when and how to sequence that. And again, that thing that I talked about of nine different loading spinners on the screen, Remix is taking a very different approach but is targeting that same thing of like, that's not great for user experience. Cumulative layout shift being the actual number that you can monitor for this. But in that talk, there are features that they've added to Remix as a framework where you can just decide, like, do we wait for this or do we not? Do we make sure we have all of the data, or do we say, you know what? Actually, this is going to be below the fold. So it's okay to defer loading this until after we send down the first payload. And then we'll kick in, and we'll do it from the client-side. But it's this wonderful feature of the framework that they're adding in where there's basically just a keyword that you can add to sort of toggle that behavior. And again, it's this idea of like trade-offs. Are we okay with more layout shift, or are we okay with more waiting? Which is it that we're going to optimize for? And I really love that idea of putting that power very simply in the hands of the developers to make those trade-off decisions and optimize over time for what's important. So we'll share a link to that talk in the show notes as well. But it was very much in the same space of like, how do I have the power to decide and to change my mind over time? That's what I want. But yeah, with that, I think that's enough of me updating on the mobile app. I'll continue to share as new things happen. But again, I'm at this point very happy with where we're at. So yeah, it's been fun. But yeah, what else is up in your world? STEPH: I have a dear Gerrit message that I wrote earlier, so I want to share that with you. Gerrit is the system that we're using for when we push up code changes that then manages very similar in the competitive space of like GitHub and GitLab, and Bitbucket. And so the team that I'm working with we are using Gerrit. And Gerrit and I, you know, we get along for the most part. We've managed to have a working relationship. [chuckles] But this week, I wrote my dear Gerrit letter is that I really miss being able to tell a story with my commit messages. That is the biggest pain that I'm feeling right now. So for anyone that's less familiar or if you already are familiar with Gerrit, each change that Gerrit shows represents a single commit that's under review. And each change is identified by a Change-Id. So the basic concept of Gerrit is that you only have one commit per review. So if you were to translate that to GitHub terminology, every pull request is only going to have one commit, and so you really can't push up multiple. And so, where that has been causing me the most pain is I miss being able to tell a story. So like even simple stories that are like, hey, I removed something that's not used. I love separating that type of stuff into its own commit just so then people can see that as they're going through review. Now, before I merge, I'm likely to squash, and that doesn't feel important that it needs to be its own commit. That's really just for the reviewer so they can follow along for the changes. But the other one, I can slowly get over that one. Because essentially, the way I get around that is then when I do push up my code for review, is I then go through my change request, and then I just add comments. So I will highlight that line and say, "Hey, I'm removing this because it's not in use." And so, I found a workaround for that one. But the one I haven't found a workaround for is that I don't push up my local work very often because I love having lots of local, tiny, green commits so that way I can know the progress that I'm at. I know where I'm headed. Also, I have a safe space to roll back to, but then that means that I may have five or six commits that I have locally, but I haven't pushed up somewhere. And that is bothering me more and more hour by hour the more I think about it that I can't push stuff up because it makes me nervous. Because, I mean, usually, at least by the end of the day, I push everything up, so it's stored somewhere. And I don't have to worry about that work disappearing. Now I am working on a dev machine. So there is that aspect of it's technically...it's not even on my local machine. It is stored somewhere that I should still be able to access. CHRIS: What's a dev machine? The way you're saying it, it sounds like it's a virtual machine, not like a laptop. But what's a dev machine? STEPH: Good question. So the dev machine is a remote server or remote machine that then I am accessing, and then that's where I'm performing. That's where I'm writing all of my work. And then that's also kind of the benefit is everything is not local; it's controlled by the team. So then that also means that other teams, other individuals can help set up these environments for future developers. So then you have that consistency across everyone's working with the same Rails version, or gems, or has access to the same tools. So in that sense, my work isn't just on my laptop because then that would really worry me because then I've got nowhere...it's not backed up anywhere. So at least it is somewhere it's being stored that then could be accessed by someone. So actually, now, as I'm talking this through, that does help alleviate my concern about this a bit. [laughs] But I still miss it; I still miss being able to just push up my work and then have multiple commits. And I looked into it because I was like, well, maybe I'm misunderstanding something about Gerrit, and there's a way around this. And that's still always a chance. But from the research that I've done, it doesn't seem to be. And there are actually two very fiery takes that I saw that I have to share because they made me laugh. When I was Googling, the question of like, "Can I push up multiple commits to one single Gerrit CR? Or is there just a way to, like, can I have this concept of like a branch and then I have many commits, but then I turn it into one CR? Whatever the world would give me. What do they have? [laughs] I'm laughing just looking at this now. One of the responses was, have you tried squashing your commits into one commit? And I was like, [laughs] "Yeah, that's not what I had in mind, but sure." And then the other one, this is the more fiery take. They were very defensive about Gerrit, and they wrote that "People who don't like Gerrit usually just hack shit together. They cut corners and love squashing commits or throwing away history. And those people hate Gerrit. Developers who care love it. It's definitely possible and easy to produce agile software." And I just...that made me laugh. I was like, cool, I'm a developer that cuts corners and loves squashing commits. [laughs] CHRIS: So you don't care is what that take says. STEPH: I'm a developer who does not care. CHRIS: You know, Steph, I've worked with you for a while. And I've been looking for the opportunity to have this hard conversation with you. But I just wish you cared a little more about the software that you're writing, about the people that you're working with, about the commits that you're authoring. I just see it in every facet of your work. You just don't care. To be very clear for anyone listening at home, that is the deepest of sarcasm that I can make. Steph cares so very much. It's one of the things that I really enjoy about you. STEPH: I mean, we had the episode about toxic traits. This would have been the perfect time to confront me about my lack of caring about software and the processes that we have. So winding down on that saga, it seems to be the answer is no, friend; I cannot push up multiple commits. Oh, I tried to hack it. I am someone that tries to hack shit together because I tried to get around it just to see what would happen. [laughs] Because the docs had suggested that each change is identified by a Change-Id. And I was like, hmm, so what if there were two commits that had the same Change-Id, would Gerrit treat those as patch sets? Because right now, when you push up a change, you can see all the different patch sets, so that's nice. So that's a nice feature of Gerrit as you can see the history of, like, someone pushed up this change. They took in some feedback. They pushed up a new change. And so that history is there for each push that someone has provided. And I wondered maybe if they had the same Change-Id that then the patch sets would show the first commit and then the second commit. And so I manually altered the commits two of them to reference the same Change-Id. And I have to say, Gerrit was on to me because they gave me a very nice error message that said, "Same Change-Id and multiple changes. Squash the commits with the same Change-Ids or ensure Change-Ids are unique for each commit. And I thought, dang, Gerrit, you saw me coming. [laughs] So that didn't work either. I'm still in a world of where I now wait. I wait until I'm ready for someone to review stuff, and I have to squash everything, and then I go comment on my CRs to help out reviewers. CHRIS: I really like the emotional backdrop that you provided here where you're spending a minute; you're like, you know what? Maybe it's me. And there's the classic Seymour Skinner principle from The Simpsons. Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong. [laughs] And I liked that you took us on a whole tour of that. You're like, maybe it's me. I'll maybe read up. Nope, nope. So yeah, that's rough. There's a really interesting thing of tools constraining you. And then sometimes being like, I'm just going to yield control and back away and accept this thing that doesn't feel right to me. Like, Prettier does a bunch of stuff that I really don't like. It shapes code in a way, and I'm just like, no, that's not...nope, you know what? I've chosen to never care about this again. And there's so much utility in that choice. And so I've had that work out really well. Like with Prettier, that's a great example whereby yielding control over to this tool and just saying, you know what? Whatever you produce, that is our format; I don't care. And we're not going to talk about it, and that's that. That's been really useful for myself and for the teams that I'm on to just all kind of adopt that mindset and be like, yeah, no, it may not be what I would choose but whatever. And then we have nice formatted code; it's great. It happens automatically, love it. But then there are those times where I'm like; I tried to do that because I've had success with that mindset of being like, I know my natural thing is to try and micromanage and control every little bit of this code. But remember that time where it worked out really well for me to be like, I don't care, I'm just going to not care about this thing? And I try to not care about some stuff, which it sounds like that's what you're doing right here. [laughs] And you're like, I tried to not care, but I care. I care so much. And now you're in that [chuckles] complicated space. So I feel for you, Steph. I'm sorry you're in that complicated space of caring so much and not being able to turn that off [laughs] nor configure the software to do the thing you want. STEPH: I appreciate it. I should also share that the team that I'm working with they also don't love this. Like, they don't love Gerrit. So when I shared in the Slack channel my dear Gerrit message, they're both like, "Yeah, we feel you. [laughs] Like, we're in the same spot," which was also helpful because I just wanted to validate like, this is the pain I'm feeling. Is someone else doing something clever or different that I just don't know about? And so that was very helpful for them to say, "Nope, we feel you. We're in the same spot. And this is just the state that we're in." I think they have started transitioning some other repos over to GitLab and have several repos in Gitlab, but this one is still currently using Gerrit. So they very much commiserate with some of the things that I'm feeling and understand. And this does feel like one of those areas where I do care deeply. And frankly, this is one of those spaces that I do care about, but it's also like, I can work around it. There are some reasonable things that I can do, and it's fine as we just talked through. Like, the fact that my commits are not just locally on my machine already makes me feel better now that I've really processed that. So there are lower risks. It is more of just like a workflow. It's just, you know, it's crushing my work vibe. CHRIS: Harshing your buzz. STEPH: In the great words of Queen Elsa, I gotta let it go. This is the thing I'm letting go. So that's kind of what's going on in my world. What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, first and foremost, fantastic reference and segue. I really liked that. But yeah, let's see, [laughs] what else is going on in my world? We had an interesting thing happen last week. So we had an outage on the platform last week. And then we had an incident review today, so a formal sort of post-mortem incident review. There are a couple of different names that folks have given to these. But this is a practice that we want to build within our engineering culture is when stuff goes wrong, we want to make sure that we have meaningful conversations around to try to address the root causes. Ideally, blameless is a word that gets used often in this context. And I've heard folks sort of take either side of that. Like, it's critical that it's blameless so that it doesn't feel like it's an attack. But also, like, I don't know, if one person did something, we should say that. So finding that gentle middle ground of having honest, real conversations but in a context of safety. Like, we're all going to make mistakes. We're all going to ship bugs; let's be clear about that. And so it's okay to sort of...anyway, that's about the process. We had an outage. The specific outage was that we have introduced a new process. This is a Sidekiq process to work off a specific queue. So we wanted that to have discrete treatment. That had been running, and then it stopped running; we still don't know why. So we never got to the root-root cause. Well, we know what the mechanism was, which was the dyno count for that process was at zero. And so, eventually, we found a bunch of jobs backed up in the Sidekiq admin. We're like, that's weird. And then, we went over to Heroku's configuration dashboard. And we saw, huh, that's weird. There are zero dynos processing this. That wasn't true yesterday. But unfortunately, Heroku doesn't log or have an audit trail around changes to those process counts. It's just not available. So that's unfortunate. And then the actual question of like, how did this happen? It probably had to be someone on the team. So there is like, someone did a thing. But that is almost immaterial because, again, people are going to do things, bugs will get shipped, et cetera. So the conversation very quickly turned to observability and understanding. I think we've done a pretty good job of instrumenting error reporting and being quite responsive to that, making sure the signal-to-noise ratio is very actionable. So if we see a bug or a Sentry alert come through, we're able to triage that pretty quickly, act on it where it is a real bug, understand where it's a bit of noise in the system, that sort of thing. But in this case, there were no errors. There was no Sentry. There was nothing; there was the absence of something. And so it was this really interesting case of that's where observability, I think, can really come in and help. So the idea of what can we do here? Well, we can monitor the count of jobs backed up in Sidekiq queue. That's one option. We could do some threshold alerting around the throughput of processed events coming from this other backend. There are a bunch of different ways, but it basically pushed us in the direction of doubling down and reinforcing the foundation of our observability within the platform. So we're just kicking that mini-project off now, but it is something we're like, yeah, we feel like we could add some here. In particular, we recently added Datadog to the stack. So we now have Datadog to aggregate our logs and ideally do some metric analysis, those sort of things, build some dashboards, et cetera. I haven't explored Datadog much thus far. But my sense is they've got the whiz-bang things that we need here. But yeah, it was an interesting outage. That wasn't fun. The incident conversation was actually a good conversation as a team. And then the outcome of like, how do we double down on observability? I'm actually quite excited for. STEPH: This is a fun moment for me because I have either joined teams that didn't have Datadog or have any of that sort of observability built into their system or that sort of dashboard that people go to. Or I've joined teams, and they already have it, and then nobody or people rarely look at it. And so I'm always intrigued between like what's that catalyst that then sparked a team to then go ahead and add this? And so I'm excited to hear you're in that moment of like, we need more observability. How do we go about this? And as soon as you said Datadog, I was like, yeah, that sounds nice because then it sounds like a place that you can check on to make sure that everything is still running. But then there's still also that manual process where I'm presuming unless there's something else you have in mind. There's still that manual process of someone has to check the dashboard; someone then has to understand if there's no count, no squiggly lines, that's a bad thing and to raise a concern. So I'm intrigued with my own initial reaction of, like, yeah, that sounds great. But now I'm also thinking about it still adds a lot of...the responsibility is still on a human to think of this thing and to go check it. Versus if there's something that gets sent to someone to alert you and say like, "Hey, this queue hasn't been processed in 48 hours. There may be a concern that actually feels nicer." It feels safer. CHRIS: Oh yeah, definitely. I think observability is this category of tools and workflows and whatnot. But I think what you're describing of proactive alerting that's the ideal. And so it would be wonderful if I never had to look at any of these tools ever. And I just knew if I got, let's say, it's PagerDuty connected up whatever, and I got a push notification from PagerDuty saying, "Hey, go look at this thing." That's all I ever need to think about. It's like, well, I haven't gotten a PagerDuty in a while, so everything must be fine, and having a deep trust in that. Similar to like, if we have a great test suite and it's green, I feel confident deploying the sort of absence of an alert being the thing that I can trust. But right now, we're early enough in this journey that I think what we need to do is stand up a bunch of these different graphs and charts and metric analysis and aggregations and whatnot, and then start to squint at it for a while and be like, which of these would I be really concerned if it started to wibble? And then you can figure the alerting around said wibble rate. And that's the dream. That's where we want to get to, but I think we've got to crawl, walk, run on this. So it'll be an adventure. This is very much the like; we're starting a thing. I'll tell you about it more when we've done it. But what you're describing is exactly what we want to get to. STEPH: I love wibble rate. That's my new measurement I'm going to start using for everything. It's funny, as you're bringing this up, it's making me think about the past week that Joël Quenneville and I have had with our client work. Because a somewhat similar situation came up in regards where something happened, and something was broken. And it seemed it was hard to define exactly what moment caused that to break and what was going on. But it had a big impact on the team because it essentially meant none of the bills were going through. And so that's a big situation when you got 100-plus people that are pushing up code and expecting some of the build processes to run. But it was one of those that the more we dug into it, the more it seemed very rare that it would happen. So, in this case, as a sort of a juxtaposition to your scenario, we actually took the opposite approach of where we're like; this is rare. But we did load up a lot of contexts. Actually, I was thinking back to the advice that you gave me in a previous episode where I was talking about at what point do you dig in versus try to stay at surface level? And this was one of those, like, we've spent a couple of days on getting context for this and understanding. So it felt really important and worthwhile to then invest a little bit more time to then document it. But then we still went with the simplest approach of like, this is weird. It shouldn't happen again. We think we understand it but then let's add a little bit of documentation or wiki page around like, hey, if you do run into this, here are some steps that will fix everything. And then, if you need to use this, let somebody know because this is so odd it shouldn't happen. So we took that approach in this case where we didn't increase the observability. It was more like we provided a fire extinguisher very close to the location in case it happens. And so that way, it's there should the need arise, but we're hoping it just never gets used. We're also in the process of changing how a lot of that logic works. So we didn't really want to optimize for observability into a system that is actively being changed because it should look very different in upcoming months. But overall, I love the conversations that you bring about observability, and I'm excited to hear about what wibble rates you decide to add to your Datadog dashboard. CHRIS: There's a delicate art and science to the selection of the wibble rates. So I will certainly report back as we get into that work. But with that, shall we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Chris switched from Trello over to Linear for product management and talks about prioritizing backlogs. Steph shares and discusses a tweet from Curtis Einsmann that super resonated with the work she's doing right now: "In software engineering, rabbit holes are inevitable. You will research libraries and not use them. You'll write code just to delete it. This isn't a waste; sometimes, you need to go down a few wrong paths to get to the right one." This episode is brought to you by BuildPulse (https://buildpulse.io/bikeshed). Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. Linear (https://linear.app/) Curtis Einsmann Tweet (https://twitter.com/curtiseinsmann/status/1521451508943843329) Louie Bacaj Tweet (https://twitter.com/LBacaj/status/1478241322637033474?s=20) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: AD: Flaky tests take the joy out of programming. You push up some code, wait for the tests to run, and the build fails because of a test that has nothing to do with your change. So you click rebuild and you wait. Again. And you hope you're lucky enough to get a passing build this time. Flaky tests slow everyone down, break your flow and make things downright miserable. In a perfect world, tests would only break if there's a legitimate problem that would impact production. They'd fail immediately and consistently, not intermittently. But the world's not perfect, and flaky tests will happen, and you don't have time to fix them all today. So how do you know where to start? BuildPulse automatically detects and tracks your team's flaky tests. Better still, it pinpoints the ones that are disrupting your team the most. With this list of top offenders, you'll know exactly where to focus your effort for maximum impact on making your builds more stable. In fact, the team at Codecademy was able to identify their flakiest tests with BuildPulse in just a few days. By focusing on those tests first, they reduced their flaky builds by more than 68% in less than a month! And you can do the same because BuildPulse integrates with the tools you're already using. It supports all the major CI systems, including CircleCI, GitHub Actions, Jenkins, and others. And it analyzes test results for all popular test frameworks and programming languages, like RSpec, Jest, Go, pytest, PHPUnit, and more. So stop letting flaky tests slow you down. Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. To learn more, visit buildpulse.io/bikeshed. That's buildpulse.io/bikeshed. CHRIS: Good morning, and welcome to Tech Talk with Steph and Chris. Today at the top of the hour, it's tech traffic hits. STEPH: Ooh, tech traffic. [laughs] I like that statement. CHRIS: Yeah. The Git lanes are clogged up with...I don't know. I got nothing. STEPH: [laughs] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Actually, I have a specific new thing that I can share, which is, as of the past week, I would say, switched from Trello over to Linear for product management. It's been great. It was a super straightforward transfer. They actually had an importer. We lost some of the comment threads on the Trello cards. But that was easy enough to like each Linear ticket has a link back to Trello. So it's easy enough to keep the continuity. But yeah, we're in a whole new world, a system actually built for maintaining a product backlog, and, man, it shows. Trello was a bunch of lists and cards and stuff that you could link between, which was cool. But Linear is just much more purpose-built and already very, very nice. And we're very happy with the switch. STEPH: I feel like you came in real casual with that news, but that is big news, that you did a switch. [laughter] CHRIS: How are you going to bury the lead like that? You switched project management...[laughter] I actually didn't think it was...I'm excited about it but low-key excited, which is weird because I do like productivity and task management software. So you would think I would be really excited about this. But I've also tried enough of them historically to know that that's never going to be the thing that actually makes or breaks your team's productivity. It can make things worse, but it can't make you great. That's the thing that I believe. And so it's a wonderful piece of software. I'm very excited about it but -- STEPH: Ooh, I like that. It can make you worse, but it doesn't make you great. That's so true, yeah, where it causes pain. Well, and it does make sense. You've been complaining a bit about the whole login with Trello and how that's been frustrating. But I haven't even heard of Linear. That's just...that's, I mean, you're just doing what you do where you bring that new-new. I haven't heard of Linear before. CHRIS: I try to live on the cutting edge. Actually, I deeply try to not live on the cutting edge at this point in my life. That early adopter wave, no, no, no, that's not for me anymore. But I've known a few folks who've moved to Linear. And everyone that I've spoken to who has moved to it has been like, "Yeah, it's been great." I've not heard anything negative. And I've heard or experienced negative things about every other product management tool out there. And so, it seemed like an easy thing. And it was a low-cost enough switch in terms of opportunity costs or the like, it took the effort of someone on our team moving those cards over and setting up the new system and training, but it was relatively straightforward. And yeah, we're super happy with it. And it feels different now. I feel like I can see the work in a different way which is interesting. I think we had brought in a Chrome extension for Trello. I think it's like Hello Epics or something like that that allows...it abuses the card linking functionality in Trello and repurchases that feature as an epic management thing. But it's quarter-baked is how I would describe it, or it's clearly built on top of existing things that were not intended to be used exactly in that way. So it does a great job. Hello Epics does a great job of trying to make something like parent-child list management stuff happen in Trello. But it's always going feel like an afterthought, a secondary feature, something that's bolted on. Whereas in Linear, it's like, no, no, we absolutely have the idea of projects, of course, and you can see burndown charts and things. And the thing that I do want to be careful about is not leaning too much into management. Linear has the idea of cycles or sprints, as many other folks think of them, or iterations or whatever you want to call them. But we've largely not been working in that mode. We've just continued to work through the next up list; that's it. The next up list should be prioritized and well defined at the top and roughly in priority order. So just pick up the next card and work on it. And we just do that every single day. And now we're in a piece of software that has the idea of cycles, and I'm like, oh, this is vaguely interesting. Do we want to do that? Oh, but if you're going to do that, you probably do some estimation, right? And I was like, oh no, now we're into a place that's...okay, I have feelings. I got to decide how to approach that. And so, I am intrigued. And I wonder if we could just say like ten carts that's how many come into a cycle, and that's it. And we use the loosest heuristics possible to define how we structure a cycle so that we don't fall into the trap of, oh, what's our roadmap going to look like six months from now? JK, what's anything going to look like six months from now? That's not a knowable fact. STEPH: I was just thinking where you said that you're moving into sprints or cycles, and then there's that push, well, now you got to estimate. And I just thought, do you? Do you have to estimate? [laughs] CHRIS: We need a burndown chart through 2024, and it must be meticulously accurate down to the hour. STEPH: I think meticulously wrong is how that goes. [laughs] CHRIS: Which is the best kind of wrong. If you're going to be wrong, be meticulous about it. STEPH: Be thorough about it. [laughs] Yeah, the team that I'm on right now, we have our bi-weekly planning, and we go through the board, and we pull stuff in. But there's never a discussion about estimation. And I hadn't really appreciated that until just now. How we don't think about how long is this going to take? We just talked about, well, what's in-flight? And how much work do people still have going on? And then here's the list of things we can pull in. But there's always a list that you can go back to. Like, it's very...we pull in the minimum and knowing that if we run out of work, there's another place to go where there's stuff that's organized. And I just love that cadence, that idea of like, let's not try to make guesses about the future; let's just have it lined up and ready for us to go when we're ready to pull it in. Although I know, that's also coming from a very developer's perspective, and there are product managers who are trying to communicate as to when features are going to get out into the world. So I get that there's a balance, but I still have strong feelings and hesitations around estimating work. CHRIS: Well, I feel like there is a balance there. And so many things in history are like, well, this is an overcorrection against that, and that's an overcorrection against this. And the idea that we can estimate our work that far out into the future that's just obviously false to me based on every project I've ever worked on that has tried to do it. And it has always failed without question. But critically, there is the necessity to sync up work and like, oh, marketing needs to plan the launch of this feature, and it's a critical one. What's it going to look like? When's it going to be ready? You know, we're trying to go for an event, it's not just know...we developers never estimate anything past the immediate moment where like, that's not acceptable. We got to find a middle ground here. But where that middle ground is, is interesting. And so, just operating in the sort of we do work as it comes up is the easiest thing because no one's lying about anything at that point. But sometimes you got to make some guesses and make some estimations. And then it gets into the murky area of I believe with 75% confidence that in three weeks, we will have this feature ready. But to be clear, I said with 75% confidence that means one-quarter of the time; we will not be there at that date. What does that mean? What does that failure mode look like? Let's talk about that. And can you have honest, open, transparent, useful conversations there? That's the space that it becomes more subtle if you need to do that. STEPH: You're reminding me of a conversation that I had with someone where they shared with me some very aggressive team goals. And it was a very friendly conversation. And they're like, "How do you feel about aggressive goals?" And I was like, "Well, it depends. How do you feel about aggressive failure?" Because then once I know where you stand there, then we can talk about aggressive goals. Now, if we're being aggressive, but then we fail to achieve that, and it's one of those, okay, we didn't meet the goal that we'd expected, but everything is fine, and it's not a big deal, then I am okay. Sure, let's shoot for the stars. But if it's one of those, we are communicating these goals to the outside world, and it's going to become incredibly important that we meet these goals, and if we don't, then things are going to go on fire, people are going to be in trouble, and it's just going to be awful, then let's not set aggressive goals. Let's not box ourselves into a space where we are setting ourselves up to fail or feel pain in a meaningful way. I agree that estimations are important, especially in terms of you need to collaborate with other departments, and then also just to provide some sense of where the product is headed and when things may be released. I think estimations then just become problematic when they do become definite, and they're based on so many unknowns, and then when I don't know is not an answer. So if someone asked, "What's your estimate for this?" And the very honest real answer is I don't know, like, we haven't done this type of work before, or these are all the unknowns, and then someone's like, "Well, let's just put an estimation of like two weeks on it," and they just sort of try to force-fit it into being what they want, then that's where it starts to just feel incredibly problematic. CHRIS: Yeah, estimation is a very murky area that we could spend entire episodes talking about, and in fact, I think we have a handful of times. So with that, Linear has been great. We're going to see just how much or how little estimation we actually want to do. But it's been a very nice addition to the toolset. And I'll let you know as we deepen our usage of it what the experience is like, but that's the main thing that's new in my world. What's new in your world? STEPH: Well, before we bounce over to my world, you said something that has intrigued me that has also made me start reflecting on some of the ways that I like to work. And you'd mentioned that you have this prioritized backlog that people are pulling tickets from. And I don't know exactly if there's a planning session or how that looks, but I have recognized that when I am working with a team, and we don't have any planning session, if everybody is just pulling from this backlog, that's being prioritized by someone on the team, that I find that a bit overwhelming. Because the types of work being done can vary so drastically that I find I'm less able to help my colleagues or my teammates because I don't have the context for what they're working on. It surprises me. I'm like, oh, I didn't even know we're working on that feature, or I don't have the context for what's the problem that we're trying to solve here. And it makes it just a lot harder to review and then have conversations with them. And I get overwhelmed in that environment. And I've recognized that about myself based on previous projects that were more similar to that versus if I'm on a project where the team does get together every so often, even if it's high level to be like, hey, here's the theme of the tickets that we're working on, or here's just some of the stuff, then I feel much more prepared for the work that is coming in and to be able to context switch and review. And yeah, so I've kind of learned that about myself. I'm curious, are you similar, or how does that work for you? CHRIS: I'm definitely similar. And I think probably the team is closer to what you're describing. So we do have a planning session every week, just a quick 30-minute scan through the backlog, look at the things that are coming up and also the larger themes. Previously, Epics and Trello now projects and Linear. But talking about what are the bigger pieces of work that we're moving on, and then what are the individual tickets associated with that that we'll be expecting to work on in the next week? And just making sure that everyone has broad clarity around what that feature set is. Also, we're a very small team at this point. Still, we're four people total, but one of the developers is on a break for a couple of weeks this summer. And so there are really only three of us that are driving on the code. And so, with three of us working on the projects, we try very intentionally to have significant overlap between the various...like, we don't want any one person to own any portion of things at this point. And so we're doing a good amount of pairing to cross-pollinate and make sure everyone's...not everyone's aware of everything, but at least one other person is sufficiently aware of everything between the three of us. And I think that's been working well. I don't think we have any major gaps, save for the way that we're doing our mobile architecture that's largely managed by one of the developers on the team and a contractor that we're working with to help do a lot of the implementation. That's a known we chose to silo that thing. We've accepted the cost of that for now. And architecturally, the rest of us are aware of it, but we're not like in the Swift code writing anything because I don't know how to write Swift at this point. I'd love to learn it. I hear good things about the language. [12:26] So yeah, I think conceptually very similar to what you're describing of still want to have people be able to review. Like, I don't want to put up a PR and people be like, I don't know, that looks like code, I guess. I'm not sure what it does. Like, I want it to be very...I want us all to be roughly on the same page, and thus far, we are. As the team grows, that will become trickier to maintain because there are just inherently probably more things that are moving, more different feature areas and surface area that we're tackling in any given week, or there are different ways to approach that. I know you've talked about having a limited number of themes for a given cycle, so that's an idea that can pop up. But that's something that we'll figure out as we get further. I think I'm happy with where we're at right now, so yeah, that's the story there. STEPH: Okay, cool. Yeah, all of that resonates with me, and thinking about it a little more deeply in this moment, I'm realizing I think something you said helped me put this together where when I'm reviewing someone's change, I'm not necessarily just looking to see does your code work? I'm going to trust you that your code works. I may have thoughts about design and other things, but I really want to understand more what's the change to the product that we're making? What's the goal that we're looking to achieve? How are we measuring this? And so if I don't have that context, that's what contributes to that feeling of like, hard context switching of not just context switching, but now I have to level myself up to then understand the problem that's being solved by this. Versus had I known some of the themes going into that particular cycle or sprint, I would have felt far more prepared for that review session versus having to then dig through all the data and/or tickets or talk to someone. Well, switching back to what's going on in my world, I have a particular tweet that I want to share, and it's one that Joël Quenneville brought to my attention. And it just resonates so much with all the type of work that I'm doing right now. So I'm going to read the tweet, and then we'll link to it in the show notes as well. But it's from Curtis Einsmann, and Curtis wrote: "In software engineering, rabbit holes are inevitable. You will research libraries and not use them. You'll write code just to delete it. This isn't a waste; sometimes, you need to go down a few wrong paths to get to the right one." And that describes all the work that I'm doing right now. It's a lot of exploratory, a lot of data-driven work, and finding ways that we can reduce the time that it takes to run RSpec on CI. And it also ties in nicely to one of the things that I think we talked about last week, where we discovered that a number of files have a high runtime variance. And I've really dug into the data there to understand, okay, is it always specific files that have these high runtime variants? Are there any obvious contributions to what's causing this? Are we making real network calls that then could sometimes take a long time to return? And the result is there's nothing obvious. They're giant files. The number of SQL commands that are being run for each file varies drastically. They're all high, but it's still very different. There's no single fact about these files that has really been like, yes, this is what's causing these files to have such a runtime variance. And so while I've been in the data, I'm documenting it, and I'm making a list and putting it all together in a ticket so at least it's there to look at later. But I'm going to move on. It's one of those I would love to know what's causing this. I would love to address it because it would put us in an ideal state for how we're distributing tests, which would have a significant impact on our runtime. But it also feels a little bit like chasing my tail because I'm worried, like with some of the other experiments that we've done in the past where we've addressed tentpoles, that as soon as you address the issue for one or two files, then other files start having the same problem. And you're just going to continue to chase and chase, and I don't want to be in that. So upfront, this was one of those; hey, let's look at the data. If there's something obvious, let's address it; if not, move on. So I'm at that point today where I'm wrapping up all of that data, and then I'm going to move on, move on to the next thing. CHRIS: There's deep truth in that tweet that you shared at the start of this segment. The idea like if we knew the work that we had to do at the front, yeah, we would just do that, but often, we don't. And so, being able to not treat it as a failure when something doesn't work out is, I think, so critical. I think to expand on the idea just a tiny bit, the idea of the scientific method, failure is totally an option and is part of science. I remember watching MythBusters, and Adam Savage is just kind of like, "Failure is always an option," and highlighting that as part of it. Like, it's an outcome. You've learned something. You have a new data point. You can take that and then carry it forward with you. But it's rough in the moment. And so, I do think that this is a worthwhile thing to meditate on. And it's something that I've had to revisit a handful of times in my career of just like, man, I feel like I've just been spinning my tires all week. I'm like, we know what we want to get done, but just each approach I take isn't working for one reason or another. And then, finally, you get to the end. And then you've got this paragraph-long summary of all the things that didn't work in your PR and one-line change sort of thing. And those are painful, but they're part of the game. Like, that is unavoidable. I have not found a way to just know how to do the work upfront always. I would love that. I would sign up for whatever seminar was selling that. I wouldn't. I would know that that seminar is a lie, actually. But broadly, I'm intrigued by the idea if someone were selling that, I'd be like, well, I mean, pitch me on it. Tell me why I should believe you; I don't, just to be clear. But yeah. STEPH: This project has really helped me embrace always setting a goal or a question upfront about what I'm wanting to achieve or what I'm looking to answer because a number of times while Joël and I have been spelunking through data...And then so originally, with the saga, we started out with why doesn't our math match reality? We understand that if these tests are distributed perfectly across the CPUs, then that should cut the runtime in half. But yet, we weren't seeing that even though we had addressed the tentpoles. So we dug into understanding why. And the answer is because they're not perfectly distributed, and it's because of the runtime variance. And that was a critical moment to look back and say, "Did we achieve the goal?" Yes, we identified the problem. But once you see a problem, it's just so easy to dig in and keep going. It's like, well, now I want to know what's causing these files to have a runtime variance. But it's one of those we achieved our goal. We acknowledged upfront that we wanted to at least understand why. Let's make a second decision, do we keep going? And I'm at that point where, frankly, I probably dug in a little more than I should because I'm stubborn. But I'm recognizing that now's the time to back away and then go back and move on to the next high-priority item, which is converting for funsies; I'll share. The next thing is converting Test::Unit test over to RSpec because we have, I think, around 25 tests that are written in Test::Unit. And we want to move them over to RSpec because that particular just step in the build process takes a good three to four minutes. And part of that is just booting up Rails and then running the tests very fast. And we're underutilizing the machine that's running them because it's only 25 tests, but there are 86 CPUs to run it. So we'd really like to combine those 25 tests with the rest of the RSpec suite and drop that step. So then that should add minimal time to the overall build but then should take us down at least a couple of minutes. And then also makes it easier to manage and help folks so that way, there's one consistent testing framework that's in use versus having to manage some of these older tests. CHRIS: It's funny; I think it was just two episodes back where we talked about why RSpec, and I think both of us were just like, well yeah. But I mean, if there are tests and another, like, it's fine, you just leave them with the exception that if there's like 2% of our tests are in Test::Unit, and everything else is in RSpec, yeah, maybe that that conversion efforts seem totally worth it. But again, I think as you're describing that, what I'm hearing is just like the scientific method, just being somewhat structured in the approach to what's the hypothesis? And what's the procedure we're going to use to determine if that hypothesis is true or false? And then what do we do? And then what are the results? And then you just do that on loop. But being not just sort of exploring. Sometimes you have to be on exploratory mode. But I definitely find that that tiny bit of rigor of just like, wait, okay, before I actually do anything, what do I think is going on here? What's my guess? And then, okay, if that guess were true, what would I be able to observe in the world? Okay, here we go. And just that tiny bit of structure is so...it sometimes feels highly formal to go into that mode and be like, no, no, no, let me take a step back. Let me write down my thoughts. I'm going to have a little checklist and do the thing. But I've never regretted doing it. I will say that. I have deeply regretted not doing it. I feel like I should make a list of things that fit that structure. I've never regretted committing in Git ever. That's been great. I've always been able to unwind it, but I've never been able to not unwind it or the opposite. I've regretted not committing. I have not regretted committing. I have regretted not writing out my hypothesis or approach. I have not regretted doing it. And so, yeah, this feels like it falls firmly in that category of like, it's worth just a tiny bit of structure. There's a reason it is the scientific method. STEPH: Yeah, I agree. I've not regretted documenting upfront what it is I look to achieve and how I think I'm going to answer the question. That has been immensely helpful. Because then I also forget, like, two weeks ago, I'll be like, wasn't there a question around why this was happening, and I need to understand? And all of that was so context-heavy that as soon as I'm out of the thick of it, I completely forget it. So if I care about it deeply or if I want to be able to revisit it, then I need to document it for myself. It's given me a lot of empathy for people who do more scientific research around, oh my gosh, like, you have to document everything you do and then still be able to prove it five years from now or however long. I'm just throwing out numbers. And it needs to be organized enough that someone, if they do question your research that, then you have it there. My research documents would not withstand scrutiny at this point because they are still just more personal notes. But yes, it's given me a lot of empathy and respect for people who do run very serious research, experiments, and trials, and then have to be able to prove it to the world. Pivoting just a bit, there's a particular topic that resonated with both you and I; in fact, it's a particular tweet. And, Louie, I do apologize if I mispronounce your last name, but Louie Bacaj. And we'll include a link in the show notes to the tweet, but Louis shared, "I managed multiple engineering teams before quitting tech. Now that I quit, I can speak freely. Here are 12 things your manager may not be telling you, but I know for a fact will help you." So there are a number of interesting discussions and comments that are in this thread. The one thing in particular that really caught my attention is number 10, and it's "Advocate for junior developers." So they said that their friend reminded them that just because you don't have 10-plus years of experience does not mean that they won't be good. Without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow. Help others grow; you'll grow too. And that's the part that I love so much is that without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow because that was very thought-provoking for me. It's something that I find that I agree with deeply, but I hadn't really considered why I agree with that so much. So I'm excited to dive into that topic with you. And then, as a second topic to go along with that is, can juniors start with a remote team? I think that's one of the other questions when you and I were chatting about this. And I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts. CHRIS: A bunch of stuff there. Starting with the tweet, I love elements of this. Some of it feels like it's intentionally somewhat provocative. So like, without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow. That feels maybe a little bit past the bar because I think we can technically grow, and we can build things and whatnot. But I think what feels deeply true to me is truly help others grow; you'll grow too. The act of mentoring, of guiding, of training, of helping someone on their journey will inherently help you grow and, I think, change the way that you think about the work. I think the beginner mind, the earlier in the career folks coming into a codebase, they will see things fundamentally differently in a really useful way. It's possible that along your career, you've just internalized things. You've been like, yeah, no, that was weird. But then I smashed my head against it for a while, and now I understand this thing. And it just makes sense to me. But it's like, that thing actually doesn't make sense. You have warped your mind to match the thing, not, quote, unquote, "come to understand it." This is sounding too judgmental to people who've been in the industry for a while, but I found this of myself. Or I can just take for granted things that took a long time to adapt my head to, and if anything, maybe I should have pushed back a little more. And so, I find that junior engineers can be a really fantastic lens for the complexity of a project. Like, the world is truly a complex place, and that's just true. But our job as software engineers is to tame that complexity and manage it. And so, I love the mindset that can come or the conversations that can come out of that. And it's much like test-driven development is a pressure on the complexity of your code, having junior engineers join the team and needing to explain how all of the different features work, and what the overall architecture is, and the message passing under this and that, it's a really useful conversation to have. And so that "Help others grow; you'll grow too" feels deeply, deeply true to me. STEPH: Yeah, I couldn't agree more in regards to how juniors really help our team and especially, as you mentioned, with complexity and ¬having those conversations. Some of the other things that have come to mind for me as well around the importance of having junior developers on your team...and maybe it's not specifically they're junior developers but that you just have a variety of experience on your team. It's going to help you lean into a culture of learning because you have people that are at different stages of their career. And so you want an environment where people can learn together, that they can fail together, and they can be public about it. And having people that are at different stages of their career will lead, well, at least ideally, it'll lead to more pair programming. It's going to lead to more productive code reviews because then people can ask more questions around why did you choose this, or why are you doing that? Versus if everybody is at the same level, then they may just intuitively have reasons that they think someone did something. But it takes someone that's a bit new to say, "Hey, why did you choose this?" or to bring up some other ideas or ways that they could pursue it. They may bring in new ideas for, like, why has the team always done something this way? Let's think about new ways that we could do this. Or maybe this is really unfriendly, the way that we're doing this, not just for junior people but for people that are new to the team. And then there's typically less knowledge siloing because then you're going to want to pair the newer folks with the more experienced folks. So that way, you don't have this more senior developer who's then off in a corner working by themselves. And it's going to improve your communication skills. There's just...I realized I'm just rambling because I feel like there are so many benefits that go along with having a variety of people on your team, especially in terms of experience. And that just leads to such a better learning environment and, ultimately, better software and better products. And yet, I find that so many companies won't embrace people that are newer to software. They always want the senior developers. They want the 10x-er or whatever those are. They want the people that have many, many years of experience. And there's so much value that comes from mentoring the next group of developers. And it's incredibly frustrating to me that one, companies often aren't open to it. But honestly, more than that, as long as you're upfront and honest about like, hey, this is the team that we need right now to build what we're looking to build, I can get past that; I can understand that. But please don't then mislead people and say that you're a junior-friendly team, and then not be prepared. I feel like some teams will go so far as to say, "Yes, we are junior-friendly," and they may even tweak their interview process to where it is a bit more junior-friendly. But then, by the time that person joins the team, they're really not prepared. They don't have an onboarding plan. They don't have a mentorship plan. And then they fail that person because that person has worked hard to get there. And they've worked hard to bring that person onto the team, but then they don't have a plan from there. And I've seen it too many times. And it just frustrates me so much because it puts that junior person in such a vulnerable state where they really have to be an incredible self-advocate to then overcome those hurdles from a lack of preparation on that company's part. Okay, I think that's my event. I'm sure I could vent about this a lot more, but I will cut it off there. That's the heart of it. CHRIS: I do think, like, with anything else, it's something that we have to be intentional about. And so what you're saying of like, yeah, we're a junior-friendly company, but then you're just hiring folks, trying to find folks that may work at a slightly lower pay grade, and that's what that means to you. So like, no, no, that's not what this is. This needs to be something different. We need to have a structure and an organization that can support folks at different points in their career. But it's interesting to me to think about the sort of why of it. And the earlier part of this conversation, we talked about some of the benefits that can come organizationally from it, and I do sincerely believe in that. But I also believe that it is fundamentally one of the best ways to find really talented people early on in their career and be in a position to hire them where maybe later on in their career, that just wouldn't happen naturally. And I've seen this play out in a number of organizations. I went to Northeastern University for my college, and Northeastern is famous for the co-op program. Northeastern sounds really fancy. Now I learned that they have like a 7% acceptance rate for college applications right now, which is wildly low. When I went to Northeastern, it was not so fancy. So just in case anyone's hearing that and they're like, "Oh, Northeastern, wow." I'm not that fancy. [laughs] But they did have the co-op then, and they still have it now. And the co-op really is a differentiating thing. You do three six-month rotations. And it is this fundamental differentiator in terms of when you're graduating. Particularly, I was in mechanical engineering. I came out, and I actually knew what that meant in the world. And I'd used Outlook, and I knew what a water cooler was and how to talk near one because that's a critical thing to learn in the world. And really transformative experience for me. But also, a thing that I observed was many of my friends ended up working at companies that they had co-opted for. I'm one of those people. I would say more than 50% of my friends ended up with a position at a company that they had done a co-op rotation with. And it really worked out fantastically. That organization and the individual got to try things out, experience. And then, I ended up staying at that company for a number of years, and it was a wonderful experience. But I don't know that I would have ended up there otherwise. That's not necessarily the way that would have played out. And similarly like, thoughtbot has the apprenticeship. And I have seen so many wonderful developers start at that very early point in their career. And there was this wonderful structure around them joining the thoughtbot team, intentional, structured, supported. And then those folks went on to be some of the most talented developers that I've ever worked with at a wonderfully talented organization. And so the story of like, you should do this, organizations. This is a thing that you should invest in for yourself, not just for the individual, like, for both. Everybody wins in this case, in my mind. I will say, though, in terms of transparency, I currently manage a team of three developers. And we hired very intentionally for senior folks this early on in where we're at. And that was an intentional choice because I do believe that if you're going to be hiring more junior developers, that needs to be something that you do very intentionally, that you have a support structure in place, that you're able to invest the time in where they're at and make sure we have sort of... I think a larger team makes more sense to bring juniors into broadly. That's the thing that I'm saying out loud that I'm like, I should push on that a little bit. Is that true? Do I really believe that? But I think so, my actions obviously point to it. But it is an interesting trade-off space of how do you think about that? My hope is that as we grow as an organization, that we would then very intentionally start hiring folks in a more junior, mid-level to junior and be very intentional about how we support them, bring them into the organization, et cetera. I do believe it is a win-win situation for everyone when done with intention and with focus. STEPH: That's such an interesting bit that you just said because I very much appreciate when companies recognize do we have the bandwidth to support someone that's more junior? Because at thoughtbot, we go through periods where we don't have our apprenticeship that's open because we recognize we're not in a place that we can support someone. And we don't want to bring someone in unless we can help them be successful. I very much admire that and appreciate that about companies when they can perform that self-assessment. I am so intrigued. You'd mentioned being a smaller team. So you more intentionally hire senior developers. And I think that also makes sense because then you need to build up who's going to be in that mentorship pool? Because then people could leave, people could take vacations, and so then you need to have that support system in place. But yeah, I don't know what that then perfect balance is. It's like, okay, so then as soon as you have like five people available to mentor or interested in mentorship, it's like, then do you start bringing in the conversation of like, let's bring in someone that we can help build up and help them be successful and join our team? And I don't know what that magical number is. I do think it's important for teams to reflect to say, "Can we take on someone that's junior?" All the benefits of having someone that's junior. And then just being very honest and then having a plan for once that junior person does arrive. What does their career path look like while they've joined that team, and who's going to be that person that's going to help them level up? So not only make that choice upfront of yes, we are bringing someone on but let's also think about like the first six months of their work here at the company and what that's going to look like. It feels like an important step that a lot of companies fail to do. And I think that's why there are so many articles that then are like, hey, if you're a junior dev, here's all the things that you should do to be the best junior dev. That's fabulous. And we're constantly shoring up junior devs to be like, hey, here's all the things that you need to be great at. But we don't have as many conversations around; hey, here's all the things that your manager or the rest of your team should be great at to then support you equally as you are also doing your best to meet them. Like, they need to meet you halfway. And I'm not completely unsympathetic to the plight; I understand. It's often where I've seen with teams the more senior developers that have very strong mentorship communication skills are then also the teammates that get pulled into all the meetings and all the different projects, so then they are less available to be that mentor. And then that's how this often fails. So I don't think anybody is going into this intentionally, but yet, it's what happens for when someone is new and joining a team, and it hasn't been determined the next six months what that person's onboarding and career path looks like. Circling back just a bit, there's the question around, can juniors start with a remote team? I can go first. And I'm going to say unequivocally yes. There's no reason a junior can't start with a remote team. Because all the things that I feel strongly about come down to how is your team going to plan for this person? And how are they going to support this person? And all the benefits that you get from being in an office with a team, I think those do exist. And frankly, for someone like myself, it can be easier to establish a bond with someone that you get to see each day, get to see in person. You can walk up to their desk and can say, "Hey, I've got a question for you." But I think all those benefits just need to be transferred into a remote-friendly way. So I think it does ratchet up how intentional you have to be with your team and then onboarding a junior developer. But I absolutely think it's doable, and we should do it. CHRIS: You went with unequivocally yes as your answer. I'm going to go with a qualified maybe as my answer. I want this to be true, and I think it can be true. But I think it takes all the more intentionality than even what we've been describing. To shift the question around a little bit, what does remote work mean? It doesn't just mean we're doing the work, but we're separate. I think remote work inherently is at its best when we also are largely async first. And so that means more structured writing. The nature of the conversation tends to be more well-formed in each interaction. So it's like I read a big document, and then I pass it over to you. And at your leisure, you respond to it with a bunch of notes, and then it comes back to me. And I think that mode of interaction, while absolutely wonderful and something that I love, I think it fits really well when you're a little bit further on in your career when you understand things a little bit better. And I think the dance of conversation is more useful earlier on and so forth. And so, for someone who's newer to a team, I think having the ability to ask a quick question over and over is really useful to someone who's early on in their career. And remote, again, I think it's at its best when it's async. And those two are sort of at odds. And so it's that mild tension that gives me pause of like, something that I think that makes remote work great I do think is at least a hurdle that you would have to get over in supporting someone who's a little bit newer. Because I want to be deeply present for someone who's newer to their journey so that they can ask a lot of questions so that I am available to be interrupted regularly. I loved at thoughtbot sitting next to someone and being their mentor and being like, yeah, anytime you want, just tap on my desk. If I got my headphones on, that doesn't mean I'm ignoring you; it means I just need to make the sounds go away for a minute because that's the only way my brain will work. But feel free to just tap on my desk or whatever and grab my attention for a moment. And I'm available for that. That's an intentional choice. That's breaking up my continuity of the day, but we're choosing that for a reason. I think that's just a little harder to do in a remote context and all the more so if we're saying, hey, we're going to try this async thing where we write structured documents, and we communicate in these larger, more well-formed, communicates back and forth. But I do believe it can be done. I think it should be done. I just think it's all the harder for all of those reasons. STEPH: I agree that definitely makes it harder. But I'm going to push a little bit and say that when you mentioned being deeply present, I think we can be deeply present with someone and be remote. We can reduce the async requirements. So if you are someone that is more senior or more accustomed to the team, you can fall back to more of those async ways to communicate. But if someone is new, and needs more mentorship, then let's just set up time where we're going to literally hang out for a couple of hours each day or whatever pairing environment works best for them because pairing can also be exhausting. But hey, we're going to have a check-in each day; maybe we close out each day and touchpoint. And feel free to still message me and interrupt me. Like, you're going to just heighten your availability, even though it is remote. And be aware, like, hey, this person could message me at more times, and I'm okay with that. I have opted into this form of communication. So I think we just take that mindset of, hey, there's this person next to me, and I'm their mentor to like, hey, they're not next to me, but I'm still their mentor, and I'm still here for them. So I agree that it's harder. I think it falls on us and the team and the mentors to change ourselves versus saying to juniors, "Hey, sorry, it's remote. That's not going to work for you." It totally works for them. It's us, the mentors, that need to figure out how to make it work. I will say being on that mentor side that then not being able to see someone so if they are next to me, I can pick up on body language and facial expressions, and I can tell when somebody's stuck. And I can see that they're frustrated, or I can see that now's a good time for me to just be like, "Hey, how's it going? What are you working on? Or do you need help with something?" And I don't have that insight when I'm away. So there are real challenges like that that I don't know how to address. I have gone the obnoxious route [laughs] where I just message people, and I'm like, "Hey, how's it going? How's it going? How's it going?" And I try not to do that too much. But I haven't found a better way to manage that other than to constantly check in because I do have less feedback from that person that I'm working with unless they are just incredibly open about sharing when they're stuck. But typically, when you're newer to a team or newer to a career, you're going to be less willing to share when you're stuck. But yeah, there are some real challenges, but I still think it's something for us to figure out. Because otherwise, if we cut off access for remote teams to junior folks, I mean, that's where we're headed. There are so many companies and jobs that are headed remote that not being junior friendly and being remote in my mind is just not an option. It's something that we need to figure out. And it's hard, but we need to figure it out. CHRIS: Yeah, 100% on we need to figure that out and that that's on us as the people managing and structuring and bringing folks into teams. I think my stance would be like, let's just be clear that this is hard. It takes effort to make sure that we've provided a structure in which someone newer to a team can be successful. It takes all the more effort to do so in a remote context, I think. And it's that recognition that I think is critical. Because if we go into this with the wrong mindset, it's like, oh yeah, it's great. We got this new person on the team. And yeah, they should be ready to go in like two weeks, right? It's like, no, no, this is a different thing. We need to be very clear about it. This is going to require that we have someone who is able to work with them and support them in this. And that means that that person's output will likely be a little bit reduced for the period of time that we're talking about. But we're playing a long game here. Let's make sure we're clear on that. This is intentional. And let's be clear, the world of hiring and software right now it's not like super easy. There aren't way more software developers than there are jobs; at least, that's been my experience. So this is something absolutely worth investing in for just core business reasons and also good for people. So hey, it's a win-win. Let's do it. Let's figure it out. But also, let's be clear that it's going to be a little tricky along the way. So, you know, let's be intentional about that. But yeah, obviously do it, got to do it. STEPH: Wait, so I feel like we might have circled back to unequivocally yes. [laughs] Have we gotten there, or are you still on the fence? CHRIS: I was unequivocally yes from the beginning, but I couched it in, but...yeah, I said other things. You're right. I have now come around; let's say to unequivocally yes. STEPH: [laughs] Cool. I don't want to feel like I'm forcing you to agree with me. [laughs] But I mean, we just so rarely disagree. So we've either got to identify this as something that we disagree on, which would be one of those rare occasions like beer and Pop-Tarts. CHRIS: A watershed moment. Beer and Pop-Tarts. STEPH: Yeah, those are the only two so far. [laughter] CHRIS: Not together also. I just want to go on record beer and Pop-Tarts; I don't think would be...anyway. STEPH: Ooh, I don't know. It could work. It could work. CHRIS: Well, there's another thing we disagree on. STEPH: I would not turn it down. If I was eating a Pop-Tart, and you're like, "Hey, you want a beer?" I'd be like, "Sure," vice versa. I'm drinking a beer. "Hey, you want a Pop-Tart?" "Totally." CHRIS: Okay. Well yeah, if I'm making bad decisions, I'm obviously going to chain them together, but that doesn't mean that they're a good decision. It's just a chain of bad decisions. STEPH: I feel like one true thing I know about you is that when you make a decision, you're going to lean into it. So like, this is why you are all about if you're going to have a Pop-Tart, you're going to have the highest sugary junk content Pop-Tart possible. So it makes sense to me. CHRIS: It's the Mountain Dew theorem, yeah. STEPH: I didn't know this had a theorem. The Mountain Dew theorem? CHRIS: No, that's just my name. Well, yeah, if I'm going to drink soda, I'm going to drink Mountain Dew, the nonsense nuclear option of soda. So yeah, I guess you're describing me, although as you say it back to me, I suddenly feel very, like, oh God, is this who I am as a person? [laughs] And I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm just going to spend a little while thinking about some stuff. STEPH: I mean, you embrace it. I think that's lovely. You know what you want. It's like, all right, let's do this. Let's go all in. CHRIS: Thank you for finding a wonderfully positive way to frame it here at the end. But I think on that note, should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Join us as we interview Chris D'Orso, Sr. Vice President of Sales and Operations for the Orlando Magic. Chris has been with the Orlando Magic for over 33 seasons and led them to #1 NBA Paternship Retention, #1 in Group Ticket Sales, and to serve over 1.4 MILLION visitors annually at their events. Chris and the Orlando Magic also believe in doing this to benefit the community, and it shows. The Orlando Magic Youth Foundation has distributed over $24 million to 500+ nonprofits, impacted 2 million+ children, and donated 14,000 tickets each year.  What you'll discover from Chris: How discovering the problem you solve and the experience you offer leads to delivering an excellent experience and driving sales. The path to partnerships and groups of people who don't know your business that drive sales around the experience and service you deliver. Leading yourself and others to generously give back to the community through your passions and skills that can help others Connect with Chris and the Orlando Magic: Check out the Orlando Magic: OrlandoMagic.com Connect with Chris: linkedin.com/chris-d-orso Email Chris directly: Chris's email

Nikki: I've spent a number of years studying vulnerability chaining and using low and medium vulnerabilities in combination to create very critical attacks. Do you see this as a common method for attacks in the wild?Chris: we're continuing to see the growth of bug bounty programs, such as HackerOne. How do you think these programs contrast (or compliment) companies internal pen test/red teams for example? Nikki: Vulnerability management is an incredibly complex topic for a lot of organizations. Do you think bug bounty programs and Vulnerability Disclosure Programs (VDP) are helping to mature those programs?Chris: How do companies have a level of assurance that the hackers will conduct the activities ethically? Nikki: I think there's still sometimes a disconnect between what hackers and pentesters know about vulnerabilities and the actual attack paths, and the remediation teams that are working to prevent these types of attacks. Do you think there's a need to educate more Blue teamers on specific types of attacks and how they are conducted?Chris: on the flip side, for hackers interested in bug bounty, how can they best go about getting started?Nikki: we're starting to see more development teams taking responsibility for security — we frequently hear the term "shifting left." Is that a trend you are observing as well?Chris: thoughts on log4shell?

Chris Powers is the Founder and Executive Chairman of Fort Capital (https://fortcapitallp.com/) and the host of The FORT podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fort-with-chris-powers/id1410549811). Chris is a serial entrepreneur with more than 16 years of real estate development and investment experience. Since founding Fort Capital, the company has invested over $1.4B in Class B industrial, commercial, multifamily, student housing, and residential and land development projects. His drive to always remain curious, desire to connect with and learn from others led Chris to start his podcast, The FORT. In the FORT, Chris talks with leaders of businesses across real estate and a variety of industries and dives deep into ideas and topics that are not regularly discussed. Chris covers each guest's story and explores in detail the critical moments that led to success, failure, growth, and confidence. He has successfully published over 200 podcast episodes. Standout Quotes: * "You only are going to be on this earth one time, you really are not coming back again after the first time; let's make the most of it" - [Chris] * "Everything that you were mad at your parents for when you were a kid, is everything you respect them for when you're an adult" - [Chris] * "Money never mattered to my dad, being content and serving others did" - [Chris] * "I think it's a very special thing in life to really want to be good at something" - [Chris] * "If you're a parent and you actually can't give your kids the things they want, it makes it almost easy; what's tough is when you can give them what they want and you choose not to" - [Chris] * "How can you expect someone that grew up with everything easy and given to them, to ever have that burning desire" - [Chris] * "Kids don't learn by words, they learn by actions, so I can say everything I want to my kids but they're going to be watching what I'm doing" - [Chris] * "You don't keep families together, particularly with the amplification of wealth, if you're not intentionally practicing the values" - [Mike] * "We're living in a really cool generation where I think we're going to be able to tell our stories to our kids like nobody's been ever been able to do it before" - [Chris] * "There's just very few people that matter in this world that you remember because of how much money they had, it's really about what they did… you will be defined by how much people remember you" - [Chris] * "The majority of businesses that do really well hit singles and doubles over and over" * "When's enough enough?... it depends on how big of an impact you want to have" - [Chris] * The first great business decision you're going to make is who you marry" - [Warren Buffet, Chris] * "There's things in life that are either giving us energy or taking away energy" - [Chris] Key Takeaways: * Chris Powers is the Founder and Executive Chairman of Fort Capital. He is also the host of the podcast, "The FORT", as well as a serial entrepreneur with over 16 years of experience in Real Estate Development and Investment Experience. Chris is a first-generation entrepreneur with stories that shaped him down to his relationship with his children. * Chris's dad was a lawyer who valued education, however, after 13 years of being a lawyer, He decided to become a doctor. With two kids and a wife at home, He left law and started medical school at the age of 39 which took place over 8 years with a financial toll on the family. The experience during those years created the foundation for the impression Chris has about money, feeling fortunate to have been more deprived of things than his peers. Chris also learned the importance of doing things in life that give fulfillment. * Because of the experience of not having money over those years, Chris became an entrepreneur at a young age to get the money he needed. However, Chris has a fear that his success allows him to skip the chances to deprive his kids of the things they should be deprived of. * Following the passing of his dad, Chris witnessed a turnout at the funeral and stories that depicted the level of impact people felt while his dad was alive. Although it was a traumatic unexpected event, Chris felt equipped at the time to take the reins in the family because his father had trusted him very early on to do things. This taught Chris that there's a level of transparency that is healthy with children, for them to start learning early on how the family operates. * "If you study people who are extremely successful in life endeavors, there is a common thread among them where they were in a position to really want something while growing up". This has made Chris understand that it is hard but necessary to deprive kids of certain things even when they can be gotten. He is trying to teach his kids not to be overly reliant on his wealth but to forge their path. Additionally, having the nature to treat people very well even from childhood is a good foundation to build on. * Raising great children amidst wealth is a challenge, and the importance of transparency cannot be overemphasised, especially when it comes to treating people well, or other issues affecting family values. This is important to note because kids learn by watching the actions of their parents, hence the teaching values has to be transparently done through actions. This transparency also translates to work, as Chris tries to make his work fun and appealing to his kids rather than intimidating. * Chris has been very intentional about leaving content for his children to learn from, especially in recordings and this is one of the motivations for his podcast, "The FORT". * Currently, Chris is working to create intentional family traditions that build the family experience. The first of these is an annual talk recorded and kept to give the kids later in life. * Starting Fort Capital: While in school, Chris wasn't particularly trying to make a lot of money but came across someone in Real Estate who helped him learn and start Real Estate deals which resulted in his company "Fort Capital". It is a Real Estate private equity company based in Fort Worth Texas. It is focused on buying Class B industrial and multi-tenant properties, functioning as value-add buyers. As time goes by the desire to sell lessens because there have been great liquidity events from sales and holding cash from sales isn't very impactful anymore. This is beneficial especially for newcomers because Real Estate is a great tax tool. * It is easy to get overwhelmed by other companies that seem to be doing immensely well, and be tempted to keep taking high chances. However, the majority of businesses succeed by surviving and growing incrementally. * To be an entrepreneur you need someone supportive even when things aren't so great. Chris recalls how selfless his mum must have been to be supportive of his father's unexpected decision to study medicine. This played a major role in the success of his dad just like his wife plays to get him to where he is today. * Concerning his view on generational wealth, Chris believes the easy route for a lot of folks with money is to let their kids assume that it's all going to be theirs, as soon as they believe it, whether it's true or not it can alter their lives. He is yet to decide on what he will leave for his kids but currently focuses on shaping their mindset on money. "I want my kids to have something but I want them to earn it and I don't want them to live a life dependent on it; not because I think it would be bad for them to have money but I think it would rob them the joy of living a fulfilled life" * From Chris to his kids: The way they will be judged when they leave earth is by the impact they've had on others. For them to live a fulfilled life, they need to think each day, "if it was all over tomorrow, what did I leave the world"? An exercise for listeners concerning this is "If you were at your 80th birthday party, write down what you would expect people you care about to say to you". You've got one shot, make it count. Episode Timeline: * [00:49] Introducing today's guest, Chris Powers. * [02:25] Chris describes inspiring life lessons from his dad. * [12:24] How did you deal with the loss of your father? * [16:30] How do you create balance with depriving your kids of some things for them to learn key values? * [28:45] Are you being intentional about creating lessons for your kids to come across one day? * [33:39] Do you have any intentional family traditions to build rituals around the family experience? * [35:50] Chris shares his journey to success in his business. * [45:33] Was there a breakthrough point where you knew you could breathe? * [48:58] What did you learn from your mother and wife in the role they play to support the family? * [53:04] Have you started to think about Generational wealth? * [55:53] A letter from Chris to his kids For more episodes go to BusinessOfFamily.net (https://www.businessoffamily.net/) Sign up for The Business of Family Newsletter (https://www.businessoffamily.net/newsletter) Follow Mike on Twitter @MikeBoyd (https://twitter.com/MikeBoyd) If you feel it's appropriate, I'd so appreciate you taking 30 seconds to Leave a Review on iTunes (http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1525326745), I receive a notification of each review. Thank you! Special Guest: Chris Powers.

Send a Voice Message to Chris How does one handle "grudges" against coaches? Let's be honest, sometimes it can be hard to not go into a game with a clean slate...after all, we're human. Right? Nevertheless, we must be cognizant of remaining professional and fair! One of the best ways to become a better referee is to utilize a mentor. Find a referee and start asking questions. If you find the advice is sound, and with context, you may have found your mentor! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thebetterreferee/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thebetterreferee/support

Title: Becoming a True Business Person with Chris Roberts   Founder and CEO of Sterling Rhino Capital, LLC. Chris Roberts has been a full-time entrepreneur and investor since 2007. He owns and operates a multimillion-dollar Sales and Marketing Company, property management business and is a partner in a Point-of-Sale software company (High Trek POS) Chris has renovated, flipped, built, or held 12 single-family residences and raw land with funds from private individuals and or with his own personal capital. Chris holds investments or shares in over 2137 units across the county. Chris and the Sterling Rhino team recently closed on a 112-unit value-add property in Georgia and 104-unit property in Virginia.   Let's tune in to his story!   [00:01 - 04:31] Opening Segment   Get to know my guest Chris Roberts A young entrepreneur turned successful businessman   [04:32 - 13:36] Becoming a True Business Person   Chris' game changing opportunity Attitude, Energy, and Relationships  Learning things outside of college Sales marketing to real estate Mindset, grit, and hustle     [13:37 - 19:19] Sales and Marketing alongside REI   The sales and marketing industry in the eyes of Chris How to Build Your Career with Lifetime Customers Making use of sales and marketing with real estate investing Just Show Up   [19:20 - 32:53]  People, Pandemic, and Problems   “Teams are so important.”  COVID, what a challenge!  How to Deal with People Mid-Pandemic A COVID Clause   [32:54 - 35:16] Closing Segment   Final words Connect with my guest, Chris in the links below Tweetable Quotes   “Most people are caught up in the hamster wheel, they can't get up on their way, we don't know what we don't know.  We're just milling along  and next thing you know, you look back and we're in our 80's.” - Chris Roberts “The people that had stuff, they put it  to work and that wasn't a hard thing to do, you just had to show up.” - Chris Roberts   “It doesn't matter how good you are.  Every successful CEO had other people around them.” - Chris Roberts   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Reach Chris through: chris@sterlingrhinocapital.com, Facebook, Youtube, or LinkedIn   Check out his website: https://www.sterlingrhinocapital.com/  WANT TO LEARN MORE?   Connect with me through LinkedIn   Or send me an email sujata@luxe-cap.com    Visit my website www.luxe-cap.com or my Youtube channel Thanks for tuning in!     If you liked my show, LEAVE A 5-STAR REVIEW, like, and subscribe!  

Take a look behind the curtain to see the software backstage. Katie Wishlade and Chris How see room for improvement.

Matty "Big Sex" V and Chris "How's Ya Father" Des are back with a completely impromptu episode after Matty lost power at 1 am on a Thursday. Sit back, relax, and enjoy a cig inside as the guys talk about their most recent softball game heroics, Matty's sauce day, their pizza pet peeves and ........ Reptilians???

We're back baby. Matty "Big Sexy" Vitale, Chris "How's Ya Father" Des, and Tommy "Hands" Holbrook are back with tales of Matty fighting adults as a youth, Holbrook's aunt and uncle not making it to the restroom and Des' Mets origin story. Plus, what's your favorite version of Coca Cola?

Sit back, relax and enjoy an cig inside as Matty "Big Sexy" V, Chris "How's Ya Fatha" Des and Tommy "Hands" Holbrook talk about the gambles of the day, broken ankle stories and Arthur Treachers

Guests: Brandon Hays: @tehviking | Blog Chris Freeman: @15lettermax In this episode, former Fronsiders, Brandon Hays and Chris Freeman join Charles and Taras to talk about the difference between a framework and a library, whether or not React + Redux a framework in itself, red flags to signal that you're actually building a framework, attributes of a good framework, how can you tell if you created a bad framework, and how you can make a bad framework better. Resources: Test Sizes by Simon Stewart This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. ** Transcript:** CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast. My name is Charles. I'm a developer here at Frontside and today, we're going to be talking about the things that go into making a JavaScript framework. Because, hey, there's not enough of those in the world today, so we're going to talk about that and with me is Taras. TARAS: Hello, hello. CHARLES: And we've got two very special guests, who have a lot of experience with this topic. Mr Chris Freeman and Brandon Hays. Hey, guys. CHRIS: Hi, there. BRANDON: Hi, there. We're talking about the poofberry framework, right? CHARLES: What's a poofberry? BRANDON: There's a tweet that's going around right now that one of them says, "I don't know what I should be doing," and the next person says, "Oh, just use poofberry." What is that? It's like fluffnuts but the [inaudible]. Hey, dot, dot, dot. Then, it integrates with log bungler. CHARLES: There's a reason that I'm dying laughing. BRANDON: It's so true. CHARLES: It's so true, laugh, cry, laugh, cry. Let's start with kind of a very basic assessment here. Because there's a lot of different things that you can use to compose the applications that you build but for some reason, some of these things are grouped and considered as libraries and some of them are considered frameworks. I don't know that the boundary is very clear like I'll know it when I see it type thing. Maybe, we can start with what is the difference between a framework and a library? CHRIS: I have some thoughts of these. I feel like this is one of those questions that could easily just turn into an infinite bike-shed but I remember reading something a while ago that stuck with me for a long time. I'm pretty sure it's related to Java but that makes sense because if anyone is going to talking about frameworks, it's Java developers. But it was saying that the difference between a library and a framework is inversion of control and the idea is a thing that's a library is a thing where you are in control. You bring the library code into your code and it's up to you what you do with it. In a framework, the framework code calls you as I think what it said. It's like, you call the library code, the framework code calls you and -- CHARLES: In Soviet framework. CHRIS: Yeah, exactly. A framework says, "Here are a bunch of open spaces for you to put your code in and I will take care of the rest," versus a library is just like... I don't know, "Here's some things that you can use. It's up to you. What do you want to do with them?" CHARLES: Right, so in kind of like [inaudible], that would be basically, a framework would be the thing that's got the main method. I think the same thing in JavaScript and when you call it, does it actually implement the main method. In JavaScript, it'll probably like in node. Under that definition, it would be like, "Are you the main scripts when you invoke node? Do you control the main script?" If you were doing your own command line parsing, for example, you're looking at the process.rb and pulling off the command lines and doing all the things but even if you're using something like Yargs or option parser in Ruby, that's more of like a framework. I guess Yargs is a library because you're still implementing the script. You're instantiating the Yargs thing. TARAS: React calls render to figure out what to convert to DOM. Does that make React the framework? CHARLES: I think React as a library. That's a good question. What's the equivalent of the main method on the web? CHRIS: I think there's a very clear distinction, especially if you look at React versus something like Ember and I'm sure Angular does this as well. In React, by default, to build a React thing, you're going to pull in React, you may write some components, you may import them elsewhere but the main method is that you have an index.html with some div in it and you are the one that has to call ReactDOM.render and you pass it like document.query selector or whatever and then, your top level component and that can be as simple as complicated as you like or you can have a webpack plugin do it or whatever else. But the onus is on you to actually take that React app and get it starting up on the page versus Ember, it's like, "There's an index.html. It's fully wired up." There is one point where you sit down and say, "Start my program here," like Ember abstracted all that away. To me, that's the main method for a frontend application. CHARLES: Right and if you actually look at something that Ember generates, then look at index.html, they generate a script tag for you that instantiate your application and mounts it on an element. If you want to change that element, that's actually a configuration option that you can change but it still a configuration option that's consumed by the framework. In that sense, there is that inversion of control. I see what you mean like in React, you're the one who flicks off the first domino, like who's the prime mover. Is it you or is it the framework that knocks over the first domino? BRANDON: I like Chris's explanation and I think it's elegant to say because I was thinking in terms of structure. If it imposes a structure on you but really, the structure is there, it's like one of those Ikea shelf systems for you to put stuff into. If you're trying to solve a problem, here's a shelving system for you to put stuff into, whereas a library is just the tool that you might get out to put something together. Something that's multi-purpose but doesn't impose any structure on you or a ton of structure on you. My question is what's the usefulness of distinguishing between the two? TARAS: I think what's interesting and I had experienced this in a last couple of projects is that people, especially React when they kind of assume, because a lot of people entering to React not understanding the context within which React emerged and so, they're getting into React assuming that it has everything you need to build application that you need to build. A lot of them haven't necessarily built a single page application from scratch before and so, the jump into building something with React and then, it takes about a year for them to realize the full scope of all of the features that their application actually has and then, they kind of take a retroactive look and look like, "Okay, what do I have now?" and what emerges is that they've actually over the last year, they may be creating a framework without realizing that this is actually happening. CHARLES: They've imposed the structure of saying, "Here's the shelving system. Books about geography go here. Books on English literature go there and so on and so forth." BRANDON: But when you rolled your own framework, that's not how it goes. It's like, "You have to launch this balloon into the stratosphere to put a book on the shelf from geology." Taras, to your point, it sounds like the importance is setting expectations properly for people, so that they know what they're in for because kind of calling back to Ryan Florence's post a few years ago, you can't not have a framework. At some point, you will have a framework in order to ship something. I would actually take it one step further. My friend, Kyle talks about this that library is the smallest unit that you're working within a framework but that still doesn't take your code to production and put it in a debugable state. You need a platform. It's arguable, if you're handling deployment tasks and debugging tasks and operating software in production, you now have a platform and it's fair to say that Rails crossed that threshold at one point. It's fair to say that Ember has probably crossed that threshold, if you combine Ember with CLI deploy and the CLI tooling and all of that stuff. This almost like acts as a platform if you're owning and maintaining the software in production. CHARLES: Now, can I play devil's advocate here and say, the platform, is that necessarily predicated on a framework? Is there a pyramid where it goes library, framework, platform and one is built on top of the other? Why couldn't I have a library? Because what I'm hearing is the scope of concerns is just rendering HTML based on a state is a very small chunk. The actual scope of things that you need to do to get that code in production and have it be reliable and do all of the features that you want to do is just massive but why is that predicated on a framework? For example, one thing you have is a bunch of libraries out there, like routing for managing the title tag, managing all these things that you have to do for managing deployment, for building your application, for compressing it. There's all these different libraries out there. What if there was one massive library that just picked a bunch of other libraries but I was still in control? TARAS: I've actually seen this happen in the last of the projects. When people jump into building, they will eventually realize that they're building a platform but what happens before that is that they take user's requirements and they break those up by sections and then they assign them to a bunch of development teams who go and actually start to build. On one platform, they end up building five or six or 10 of siloed, packaged applications that have, in some cases, have their own dependencies, they have similar architecture, might not have similar architecture. Each team kind of implements thing differently and there's an expectation that once you package these things as npm and then you install them into one package, to one application when you run build, it's just going to work together. That's where I think, with the framework, it does create a foundation for these verticals to be implemented using kind of common foundation. This is what a lot of times that as if you don't realize that what you're trying to set out to build, the way that the projects get managed quite often, especially for big applications, for big platforms is that, it creates this period of about two years, where there's a lot of confusion and there's a lot of duplication and then, you end up seeing code that it's hard to put in production. CHARLES: Yeah, I agree. I'm curious then, because we'd started out talking about library and framework and talked about it takes two years to recognize that you're building a framework or you're building not a framework but a platform. Brandon, you said something very interesting. Rails for example, crossed the threshold of being more than a framework and actually, being a platform. What are the concerns of a platform that are beyond a framework? We talked about and using the kind of loose definition of a framework as being something where the framework create spaces for your code, to run your code so you can just take little dollops of code and they have one concern but the framework manages the coordination of the concerns but what's the next level? BRANDON: For the purposes of this conversation, I may have muddied the waters a little bit because I think it's more interesting to talk about the transition and the level of which you've crossed the threshold from being a library or using libraries or collecting libraries, into maintaining a framework because it's where you're going to experience more pain more than likely, than to me, the idea from works on my machine, to deployed and supported across a lot of users, it sounds like it's more interesting but it's not where we experience most of our pain actually. From my experience, maintaining frontend single page applications most of the pain is actually getting the damn thing to work on your machine and getting the libraries to collectively work together and then, getting that to production, it kind of enters back into an area of more known unknowns. I think that's a surprisingly a more mature ecosystem, still getting from this thing works on my machine to getting it out the door. That wasn't true when Rails was invented and so, Rails had to invent a lot of its own ecosystem around this stuff. Like I said, I don't want to muddy the waters too much. I think to me, the interesting question is how do you know you've crossed this threshold? What pain points are exposed when you start crossing that threshold or when you're pushing the boundaries of that threshold? Because you should not be using a framework if you're using React to do a select dropdown. I think of it as, if you're using it the way to replace something you might do with a jQuery plugin five or 10 years ago, you're using React like it's a library. One of the questions that you brought up was is the combination of React and Redux is a framework and I would argue that it is but I kind of want to throw that out -- CHRIS: Oh, interesting. CHARLES: I would say, it's two libraries stuck together to make a bigger library. It's like a monolithic library. BRANDON: But by the time you're actually using that to do anything, maybe the third thing in there is like transitioning states when you transition routes. At what point is that threshold crossed? I didn't build most of the software that led me to some of the opinions that I have about this. This was actually Chris Freeman's, though. I may defer to you on this. CHRIS: I think React + Redux constitutes if you look at what it does. You have like this view layer and this state layer. There's a set of opinions on there that is useful and there is the foundation for doing quite a bit but in my experience, you've already kind of alluded to this a little bit. I don't think it's a framework because as soon as you start using those two things, suddenly the next thing you hit is, "Wait. How do I handle asynchronous things?" There's a lot of different options for that. "Oh, now, I need to do routing. How do I incorporate routing into my React app but also in a way, that is amenable to state transitions in Redux but also, that is aware of the async stuff that I'm doing, that is going to possibly be triggered by my routes and by my Redux actions or by some other side of things?" Suddenly, you are very quickly pulling out a bunch of other libraries but also, probably starting to build abstractions on top of them because you're already finding a lot of common patterns that you're repeating over and over as you incorporate more and more pieces of the stack and then, you're writing a lot of glue code. I think that's the point where suddenly, you look back and behind you is the footsteps of this framework that's been walking alongside you the whole time. BRANDON: That is where I carried you, then dropped you, then sort of drowned you. CHRIS: Yeah. CHARLES: And then, kicked your core. TARAS: I'd like to suggest a way to think about this. As you guys are talking about, it kind of occurred to me is that it seems to me that libraries concentrate on how and frameworks focus on the 'what.' CHRIS: Oh, I love that. TARAS: Because if you think about for example, React is how geostack efficiently update DOM, then Redux is how do you wire together state across multiple components that might be in different parts of state tree and if you look at, for example, a React router or a kind of a routing component is how do you choose which components you want to render when you navigates specific URL. Because those things by themselves are not a complete solution but when you combine them together, what you get is you have a way of saying, "When I navigate to specific URL, I'm going to load specific data, provide that data to components and then, I would have a way to navigate through a different URL when you click on a link." From that, I think what happens when you get to the framework level is you actually have a kind of a bigger umbrella and under that umbrella, you have ways to address problems that you did not have previously. I think that's what framework does it is over time, it's a way of addressing concerns that cannot be addressed with a solution. They have to address with a collection of solutions and then, they provide a specific solution. I don't know if that's -- CHARLES: That actually sparked off a train of thought in my mind that perhaps what you really want to do is say, "I'm going to go a little bit like Lisp on you all," in the sense of every code at some point is data, that maybe every library, at some point is a framework. It's just that you can look and say, "What is the scope of the 'what' that I'm tackling." For some point, you can say like React is a framework. It creates this space where I can put my JSx, AKA the render function and I'm basically inverting control and so, what it is, it is a framework for efficiently rendering HTML or efficiently mapping an object to a fragment of DOM and then the DOM that gets generated from your render function, patching that into the HTML. You don't have to worry about that. There's that inversion of control. It creates that space but that's the only space that it creates. From that perspective, React is a framework for generating HTML but that's all it is but it is a library for constructing applications. Does that make any sense? I think as you layer on concerns, your framework create spaces for you. You use your library code to put stuff in and so, in the same way, I think one of the key realizations, I'm going to call up like BigTest and I'm not going to take credit for this, which is actually a blog post that I read at Google. I can't remember what it is but we'll link to it in the show notes where he said, "There are no such thing as unit tests. There are no such thing as acceptance tests. There are just tests of varying scope." They're all acceptance tests. To use that one thing, they're all experiments. It's just what is the scope of the test that you're trying to accomplish and his argument was we want to make that scope as big as possible by default and then, where appropriate, you narrow down. Maybe, the framework library distinction is a little bit constructed, kind of a construction of our own minds and what really is there, there's just frameworks of varying scope. BRANDON: Agreeing on a shared scope is actually probably the most important part of this conversation. We're referring to building end-to-end an application from data access to rendering to testing -- CHARLES: To deployment to routing. BRANDON: Yeah. CHARLES: To one day accessibility. BRANDON: Yeah. Adding that into the discussion is like a baseline of what constitutes an application. It's the percentage of people that are able to actually use it, the people that are locked out from using it by ability. That's a very useful frame for the discussion. Let's agree on the scope of what an application is and then, coming back to what Taras was saying is basically, when you're talking about the 'how,' that's a decision point. You hear a lot of people talk about decision fatigue in JavaScript and it's almost a played out trope at this point but it hasn't gone away as a problem, so what frameworks are doing is they're making a series of decisions for you that allow you to basically connect the pieces from end to end. Basically, somebody threw a rope bridge across the canyon and it doesn't have to be the best solution to get end to end but we have to solve the problem end to end. If we agree on the places end to end and the problem is when you're building your own series of libraries, you're like, "I'm going to choose best in class of A, best in class of B, best in class of C," and that sounds really good but if you're trying to build a bridge across a canyon and you're building in 10 best of class sections, for the type of connection we're trying to make here in the middle, we're going to use the best in class here. The weak point is in the connections, so you had better be the world's foremost engineer if you're going to be the person connecting all these disparate pieces that are each best in class, in order to bridge this canyon. That's the thing that's interesting to me and it's not even agreed in our industry that JavaScript-based web applications are a good thing or that the browser is web application runtime, those are things that are up for debate. But I think if we make that assumption, this is sort of the founding principle of where Ember came from and it executed to the best of its ability at the time and that philosophy is, I think you can prove it out in terms of results based on if you have two different applications, one of them is built by somebody trying to jam together best in class components and the other person is starting with an end to end solution with a community of people rallied around that solution. It's been interesting to watch those approaches play out over time. I know Chris has a very specific hands-on experience of having done both of these. I'm curious to get your hot take. CHRIS: There's actually a concept that I think about a lot in relation to this question. It's something that I actually heard come up again recently so the timing was great but it's called hypocognition. The idea is hypocognition is when you either just like can't see or can't understand some kind of cognitive representation of something because you don't have the words for it. An example is in Western cultures, especially like in English speaking cultures, there are not that many words for the color blue but in a lot of other cultures, they have many, many words for the color blue. After doing a big study they found that these English speakers actually have a harder time recognizing different shades of blue, like more of them just look the same versus other cultures where their brains are actually wired to see all this variety because they actually have the linguistic representations for these ideas already. When you were talking about maybe a library is a framework at some point, I think that's right on. I think one of the things that I think about a lot when talking about frameworks and seeing these debates happen on the internet about, "What is a framework?" but also like, "Do you even need a framework?" is obviously, there's a lot of people who absolutely... Like Ryan Florence. Ryan Florence clearly knows what a framework is. He knows what it takes to build a web application and he does not lack the words to define a framework versus a library. He's just made that choice and it's a very informed choice but I wonder if there's also a lot of people who are getting into web development for the first time and they look at something like a framework and it seems just absurd to anyone would want all of the things that like in Ember or in Angular is talking about, when they can make a basic UI with React and it's easy and fun and really cool. But then this two-year path happens and they look back and they've learned a whole bunch and now it's like, "Ooh, you couldn't even have explained this to me before," because all of the words would have fallen on deaf ears but now suddenly, it makes a staggering amount of sense. CHARLES: Right. I love that. BRANDON: You have to make a bad one. CHARLES: Just so that you can inherit the vocabulary to understand why you made a bad one. Now, you guys actually have some experience with this. Brandon, you gave a talk about it, which I think you should give more widely because it's fantastic but for those folks who may or may not be aware that they are walking this to your path, I want to talk first about what are the signs that you're walking along this path and then two, what are the consequences in terms of the cost you're paying for walking this path. Let's start with that first thing. What are the signs? How can you tell that I am building a framework? CHRIS: I think one of the telltale signs and one of the biggest red flags that caused me and Brandon to have a very serious heart to heart about our own personal framework was when we hit the point where you could look at a set of tickets for features and all you saw was 'framework features' that you needed to write before you could build the feature itself. You know like, "Oh, we have basic routing setting and we have it set up so that if you have a route transition and you would like a data request to happen when a certain route transition happens, that will happen," but then someone would like infinite scroll and we want to use a query param. When a query param changes, I want to update the query and fetch more records, except that the glue code that we wrote to tie our router to our redux async stuff is not aware of query params. It has no concept of what a query param is or what to do when it changes. Also, it has no concept of refetching the data without a full route transition, so what do we do, this person wants infinite scroll but I first have to implement several layers of framework code before I build the UI feature that you want? CHARLES: The basic heuristic there is ratio of direct feature code to code that supports the direct feature code and code that supports the code that supports direct feature code. It's anytime you're anywhere above that first layer on the stack. CHRIS: Yeah, I think Taras nailed it like what's the 'what' versus the 'how.' If you're asked a question that is concerned with the 'what' and you spend more time focused on the 'how,' then you might have a framework. BRANDON: I think people will think of building an application like a recipe. If you think of it in those terms, people think of frameworks as very restrictive but I'm a big fan of Blue Apron, a sponsor of this podcast. Thank you. They pre-select the ingredients and they give you the instructions and you know what to do, you still have to do the effort but you know if you connect these pieces together properly that you're going to wind up having a good experience and then, it gives you a lot of freedom to experiment and be creative beyond that, should you choose to. I think one of the signs that you've done a crummy job is that you're staring down, like Chris Freeman said, you actually starting to restrict your choices like, "I can't actually build you that feature because we don't have time to take on the amount of work necessary to build the support structure, to build you that feature," or if you find yourself writing a test framework. CHRIS: Oh, yeah we did that too. BRANDON: You know, we were real deep in this. There are developers that are like, "I really want to feel like I'm walking into a grocery store and selecting all the things necessary for my recipe," and so it really depends on what the problem actually is. If you're working at a giant megacorp and you have a two-year timeline to deliver something and their goals are not about delivering stuff on a tight turnaround, that's usually a recipe for a software failure anyway but let's say, that you're in the 5% of those types of projects that's going to succeed, that might be a good place where you can say, "What we're trying to do here is so custom and we have such a long lead time and a long leash and such a high level of internal expertise here that we should be shopping in the grocery store and we should be selecting all these things and we should be solving these problems." Basically, when is it time to use a framework? Well, when you don't have 10 times the time you think you do, when you don't have the ability to spend 80% to 90% of your time in the first three to four months of your project, maybe six months, debugging you're glue code in between the different libraries that you're gluing together and then coming back and realizing that you've painted yourself into a corner and you have to re-architect your whole framework, then you could be so proud of this baby, 18 months to two years from now, when you actually have delivered both a framework that took about 70% of your time and an application that took 25% or 30% of your time. CHARLES: Yeah. I think it's important to realize that people think we'll do it and we'll build it as we go but I want to call out right there, you will be spending 80% of your time and you have to be upfront about it. Of this two years, 18 months of it is going to be spent building this framework and six months of it is going to be spent actually writing the feature code and you have to be 75% of your tickets or your issues, whoever track the work, 75% of that has to be dedicated to the framework. BRANDON: If you're going to bake in that kind of overhead purely for the satisfaction of a single or one or two developers that like inventing things, that is literally the worst possible reason you could do that. That is almost like a guaranteed recipe for failure. It has to be for some other business reason like, "We want to be the company that owns this." There has to be business value attached in making that kind of investment. If you can't justify that at the outset, then you should probably just go ahead and lean on an existing framework and join a community of people. CHARLES: Yeah and I think one good litmus test for that is, "Is this a 'what' for which there is currently no 'how?' One of the reasons we're writing BigTest is because for the general JavaScript community, there are a number of acceptance test frameworks out there but the market is very, very limited. When we look to actually acceptance tests, our React application, this thing does not exist. Now, we had experience with something that was very like Ember specific and so, we kind of knew what the 'what' was, we experienced the 'what' but there was no 'how' for our current situation. That's like a place where you might be called upon where makes business sense to actually invest in a framework. I'll tell you another thing too is if you have made the decision to kind of follow the beaten path on the other areas, then when a framework is called for, you have the bandwidth. You've allowed for the buffer, for the margin, for you to write in with that framework, whereas if you're already just by default, maintaining all the glue code in every single thing, then if some unique 'what' comes along, for which there is no 'how,' you're not going to have a bandwidth to tackle it. BRANDON: Yeah. That's a real bad situation to be in. TARAS: There's something else that I find interesting is because there's a certain point, like this two-year mark where everyone's like, "We want to fix this now." I think what is interesting what comes next which is the three years of undoing all the stuff that you made because the biggest challenge, especially in really big projects. When your projects has to borderline into platforms and a platform threshold is when you have a multiple teams working separately to write separate modules that run, maybe in a separate Git repo and maybe, packaged in separate npm package and assembled together. Then what happens at that point, the question arises like how do you actually make this changes in this environment. Answering that question is actually really difficult. I think if you look at frameworks like Ember, Ember has made it their business to figure out exactly how to make this happen and I think they've done it really well but it's a really challenging endeavor, especially in incorporate environments where they don't have an update. You have like upgrades are like a curse. It's like a thing that you don't really want to ever do and because most quite often, they don't have the right testing habits in place to be able to support the change if necessary. I think what a lot of times happens is that the team that made the framework in the first place, they end up trying to maintain a fort but you won't have like 10 people and they only have machetes, you know? All you can do is run around and try to chop down little twigs but at the end of day, the trees is still going to keep growing. I think that's the really challenging part of being two years into a project, where you realize that you actually need something much more comprehensive than initially thought you needed. CHARLES: On that, assuming that you have decided that you are going to make a framework, it's a good business decision for you. Based on the criteria of this discussion, how can you assess whether it's good? Chris, you talked about needing to integrate query params with routing and asynchronous data loading and making sure all of that coordination happened and worked together easily. What's the difference between your framework just missing features kind of having holes in it that can be filled in, versus something that's not good and it's going to cost you lots of money down the road. CHRIS: Yeah. TARAS: One thing, if you look at what makes a good library of any kind, it tends to be like how effectively and how much words to take the address the use cases that you need. The problem is that to build a good framework, you need to understand the use cases. This is what usually happens over time. Two years in, you've actually understood the use cases and now, it's time to change and so, I think if you want to build a good framework, you actually need to understand those use cases quite early on or account for understanding use cases over time and that's a big question -- how do you figure out how to know what you don't know. CHRIS: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think about what you were just saying Charles and Taras like one of the things that I think has a big impact on and what this process looks like is the completeness of vision for what's your project actually is. If you have a very, very clear idea of what the entire product you're building is going to be or, at least what the key money-making feature is going to be and you can understand the ins and outs of that, then I think that's the point where you can look at what you have and say, "Have I created a good or bad framework? Does this framework have the ability to solve this one very important thing that I have to be able to do? If the framework doesn't do it, then I need to build my own but I now know what very important features I need to front load my framework with." I kind of think of it as imagine that you're like Jeremiah Johnson, the Reverend Jeremiah Johnson and you're going to go trekking through the woods for some unknown amount of time and you have no idea yet. You don't actually know where you're going. You don't know what you're going to see. You don't even know what's out there because you haven't done the research or whatever and you need to be prepared for anything, so you bring just a hodgepodge of stuff. If that's you at the beginning of your company or the beginning of your product and yours is kind of like... I don't know, we got to get product market fit and that means that we may have to kind of pivot once or twice or we need to be very flexible, then I would think long and hard before you commit to writing your own framework because you don't even know what framework to build and you might as well take a broad array of tools and use what you need. There will be times where that's frustrating and there won't be exactly the right tool for the job but 80% of the time, it's going to do just fine but if you know you have to do this one very special thing and you know that a framework is going to give you a lot of stuff that you won't need and it doesn't really excel at the one thing you do need, then don't force the framework. There may be time to build your own but just know that you need to go in with a very clear idea of what you're doing before you start building the abstractions that constitute a framework, rather than just like a constellation of libraries. CHARLES: I have a question on that then. Going back to one of the things we were talking about like React plus Redux. Your opinion, Chris that it is not a framework, so the question is does a framework actually exist for React? CHRIS: My guess is that many frameworks exist for React. CHARLES: Is there a public framework? TARAS: There is one called Fusion but it's [inaudible] what you would have imagine. It is essentially Redux and React together conventionalized. They addressed a bunch of concerns around service rendering and such but it does exist. CHRIS: How about Next? Next.js? TARAS: I'm not familiar with its features from a single page application perspective. CHARLES: I think it does have a router. It does bundle with Redux and this is one of the things that when you first started using Redux, it's like, "How do I even get my store to my components?" Yes, I can connect them but there's actually a lot of stuff that you have to do. First, you have to say, "I'm going to put my reducers here and then when I create my store, I'm going to fold all my reducers. If I've got a whole bunch of reducers in my application, I've got to fold them all together. I've got to pass them off to the store. When I create the store, I have to inject the middleware and then, everybody else just imports my store and then, I have to put in a provider and then, I can connect my components." That's actually a lot of stuff that you have to do and I think that, for example, Fusion just says, "Put your reducers here and we'll take care of all that process," and so it makes that decision for you, right? It says, "For state management, you're going to use Redux. For your reducers, they're going to go here. For your actions, they're going to go here." I don't know exactly how it's laid out but I remember reading the ReadMe, it was basically layering conventions over that. That's definitely going into framework territory but that's the only one that I know of, which is really, really odd. TARAS: There's something interesting that's happening also and this goes to what Brandon was saying earlier is that choosing the best in class, there's this 10 things but then, what if one of the best in class stops being the best in class. The fact that the creators of Redux was essentially saying that we needed to basically provide a way to do Flux that was better than 10 different options that were available, so here's Redux. We've created Redux but we don't really think it's ultimately the solution. We need to have something else in React that provides a foundation for us to be able to deliver a better state management than what Redux is, so what happens when one of the best in class is no longer the best in class? The bridge is already standing. There's people walking across the bridge already. How do you replace one of the chains in it? CHRIS: Over the course of six months while you figure out the differences in API between Flux and Redux and all the custom route transition data loading stuff you did with your Ajax library in your state management software that you put in a case statement inside there that you now have to change over. It's easy. It's no big deal. Don't worry about it. BRANDON: Just a simple matter of programming. TARAS: At least 25 years of collective frontend development experience is laughing like hyenas about the simplicity of building a -- BRANDON: Yeah, I'm actually looking at some of the old code that Chris wrote for trying to glue together, Redux Saga. I've been out of the game long enough to not know whether that's been superseded by some new or best in class piece of technology and even then, it was really challenging. This is true for frameworks too, is they don't really optimize for best in class. They optimize, hopefully for best fit for purpose but the world has moved on since Ember launched obviously. A lot of things have changed and it's, at least as difficult to try to keep that up to date with evolving trends and technologies and updates for a core team at a framework level as it is for you, as an engineer on the team. The difference is you get to outsource that work to a core team for a framework. Ember has not done a fantastic job in keeping up with. They've done a good job and they've tried their best but if there were more people working on it or if there was more effort applied to it or if it was a higher priority, you would see Ember being a more up-to-date framework using more modern tools. As a framework author, if you stay too close to the bleeding edge, all you're going to do is change out your build system. You're going to replace a Broccoli with webpack, with Rollup, whatever's after that. What's new in Packer? CHRIS: Parcel? CHARLES: Parcel. BRANDON: Parcel. You should immediately go build your framework with that and have fun. I am excited by the new and interesting stuff that's happening in these ecosystems and I think it's important not to get lulled into the siren song if your goal is to actually ship a piece of software on a timetable or a budget. TARAS: One thing, if it's a red flag, if you think this is easy, if you think your decisions can be made in this isolation without talking to somebody else and actually kind of flashing it out, then you're probably doing something wrong because a lot of these things are not trivial. There's a lot of thought, there's a lot of considerations used to go into decisions that you make, especially when you're creating something that is going to be used by more than a few people. I think that's really one of those things where it's hard to know what you don't know but if you think you know and you haven't done this before, you haven't done this a few times before, you're probably missing some pieces. BRANDON: Yeah, I agree with that. CHRIS: I think one of the things that's really enticing about React and Taras, you just hit on it but I've never felt as clever as when I was writing a React app. If I'm clever, I mean, clever in the same way that I felt really clever when I wrote some unbelievably convoluted Scala one-liner that six months later, neither me nor anyone else could decipher what it meant but at that time, I felt like a god of programming. That's how it felt like, "Well, a lot of the React stuff is addicting." It felt so much fun. It was so much fun until I really had to do something and it mattered for my job and there was a deadline and people were depending on me and I've realized that the clever thing I had done a month later was not the right clever thing but I can see how, if you're like what Taras was saying, where you are at the point where these decisions are easy. These decisions make sense. We're going to be fine and you haven't done it enough to kind of like know where all of the pitfalls are. That cleverness that you feel is fantastic and I can see why it takes two years before you look back and if the cleverness was finally worn off and then, you're just mortified at what you've done. CHARLES: Pride cometh before the fall. CHRIS: Yeah. BRANDON: It's like being a dungeon master in Dungeons and Dragons, where you're like, "Oh, look at this fiendish world." All right, cool. Now, you actually live there though. I have to move into an apartment on Mordor. TARAS: You know what's the funny flipside to that is that coming from Ember world where it's so normal to leverage the work of other clever people, like really smart people who've invested a lot of time to solve a particular problem, is that there's no stronger sense of being dumb than having to write it from scratch in React. That first feeling of like, "I've actually never had to implement this from scratch," and I feel like a bunch of applications before but because I've leaned on for accessibility, I've leaned on something that someone else has done and it worked really well for me and it was perfect. But now, I need to implement autocomplete from scratch in React and I have no support. I'm basically learning as I'm going on this and it's that sense of discomfort that you get from having to do it from scratch and then, comes the euphoria of having to figure it out. But if you figured it out, you figured it out in the last month. You've written it for the first time in the last month and you now understand what all the things that the Ember implementation does for you. It's an interesting psychology of doing this -- CHARLES: Yeah, it gives you a lot of perspective but you have to ask as a business owner, who may or may not be technical and this is the hardest thing for technical people who are business owners is to be able to not see things through a tactical lens. Is what you really want to pay for is to basically give your programmers this kind of a-ha moment of their own shortcomings because that what you want to be buying. BRANDON: Yeah, you want to maximize leverage. Your goal with technology is to maximize leverage. It's like being hired as a chef and you walk in and then you're like, "I'm a terrific chef. I worked in these fancy kitchens in New York and I'm known as a great chef," and they're like, "Okay, cool. Here's some flint and steel and a spear." CHARLES: Go hunt. BRANDON: You're like, "Wait, what?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. Show me what you can do. TARAS: We had a conversation in one of the previous podcast with Michael Jackson and we asked him, "What is the one thing you wish like React community would do more of?" and he's like, "I really wish React community have more conventions." All of this is to kind of say as like, there is a place for frameworks in React world. There's a very strong place for it. The question is how and what it said and how do you actually build it and when do you --? BRANDON: So we need a framework for making framework. TARAS: Getting really meta here. BRANDON: I totally agree with that and that's a great observation and that was actually the point of my talk as well, which is if I could convince people just to use Ember and improve Ember, that would be great because I think it's a really great starting point. But the React community is much larger because it had such a great adoption story. The adoption of Ember was very difficult and the adoption of React was very easy and it expanded to include the scope of full end to end applications in terms of what people thought the problem spaces they were thinking of with React. Ember was built to solve that but it was hard to get into. React was really easy to get into but it's actually hard to build applications with. I would love to see a dedicated subset of the React community, except the idea of shared solutions and the philosophies that made Ember into sort of a powerhouse of value delivery but built out of tools that satisfy the React community and a little more modular and a little more available for people to customize and built in that ecosystem. I'd really love to see that that included all of the main components of what we accept as, "This is an application framework. It handles testing. It handles accessibility. It handles data loading," and it doesn't have to be best in class in every scenario but it does have to be a reasonable bridge across that chasm and have a group of people look at this the same way. I would love to see a collective subset of the React community dedicate themselves to this idea. I don't know if that's too culturally opposed or even orthogonal to what the value system inside the React community. I haven't been able to fish that out but I would really love to see that emerge. this is something I would love to push for and I'd love to see other people jump in and push for as like, "What if 20 of us got together and decided we're all building our applications in similar ways, instead of one person saying, 'I'm going to use --'" Even create React app is kind of a Band-Aid on that, it isn't useful past a certain stage of life. I would love to see a group of people, though, get together that are sort of like-minded like that, the Michael Jacksons and maybe even Dan Abramov or a group of people that shared that set of values or came into React from the Ember community. That's actually one piece of advice I would give to people. You said, "How do you convince this engineer that they've built a bad framework?" Use a decent one. That's the biggest guide. Use a decent one. Build something in Ember and ship it to production and go, "Oh, I get it." If you've used a good framework, you can't go back to rolling a crappy one. Your standards have been ratcheted up. CHRIS: I wholeheartedly agree that you should try something else and Ember is a great option but I don't want to dismiss just like, "React is cool as hell," and there's a lot of stuff in React that's really, really awesome and things that I wish that will show up in Ember and they are starting to show up in Ember but they're taking a while and it'll be nice in there but who knows when that will be but I would encourage even more so is both sides, like Ember folks who are listening to this podcast, if you have never messed around with React because you feel some kind of tribal affiliation that you can't betray, please set that aside and go do something in React because you will learn a lot about why Ember does what it does and you will see a lot of really interesting things that will probably jostle some ideas loose in your brain. The same thing goes for React developers. You, 100% should spend a weekend building something in Ember and nothing about that means that you have to switch or it's going to change the path that you're going on at work but I guarantee you, you will go back to your React application with some new and fair useful perspective that you didn't have before and that's okay. That's great. There's no identity crisis that will come about as a result of that. CHARLES: That is a fantastic advice, Chris. It will only stretch you. CHRIS: Yeah. BRANDON: I think developers have been sold this idea of a competitive landscape by authors of these frameworks because it helps sell the framework. You can build and strengthen a community by leaning into the tribalism that can surround the usage of a tool. The older I've gotten as a person who was deeply tribalistic about Ruby on Rails when I got into it and Ember when I got into it, because I love tribes, I think tribes are awesome and it's a way to make friends but when you really lean into that, the costs are too high and experimenting with other technologies and noticing flaws in your own technology is not only not a betrayal, it's actually critical to your growth as a developer. The more people that do that, like Chris was saying, the better both of those ecosystems will get. CHARLES: Absolutely because having spent as much time in React as I have, I really appreciate the precious things about Ember. It will make you appreciate the things that you hold dear. It will make you appreciate the really, really, really special things about the tool that you're using and at the same time, it will highlight the weaknesses which you can immediately use to feedback and make your tool better. It really is a win-win situation. TARAS: I just want to do a little plug before we close up. I think the feels of working with Ember is actually gone into microstates and we're still getting our things together to make microstates look accessible and usable by everyone but that feeling of pleasure that you get from working with Ember and just things just being there for you, like we really want to reproduce that and make that available in React community and the stuff that we do in microstates is actually really designed for that. CHRIS: Yeah, I see that in BigTest too as well. That's definitely another place where it's like, "These people definitely used to spend time in Ember and they're now in React-land." It's cool to see that stuff getting ported over. CHARLES: Absolutely because it fundamentally changes your taste. Working with an application that doesn't have like a bolted on testing framework is like eating water soup. You just can't enjoy your life. It really is flavored everything that we do. On that note, we can go ahead and wrap up. There actually is some pretty exciting news. We're actually going to be launching a BigTest launcher. Up until this point, you kind of had to roll your own using BigTest for your assertions but using something like Karma to actually launch the browsers and we're actually launching our own launcher. I guess we've written our own launcher and we're going to be pushing it to NDM, not to overload the word launch. You can look for that in the next couple of weeks. There's going to be a CLI that ships with BigTest to help you do even more set up, to make it so that you can just drop BigTest right into your application, whether it's jQuery, React, Ember, you name it. That should be really, really fun. Be looking for that and with that, if anybody has any other remarks... BRANDON: If people are coming through RubyConf this year, I'll be there talking about management stuff. That's my only near-future conference stuff coming up. Hope to see some of the more Ruby-flavored folks out there. CHARLES: All right-y. Definitely, go to every single talk that Brandon ever gives. You won't regret it. I can base that on very dear personal experience. You won't be disappointed. You know, not to put the pressure on or anything like that but you could never put any more pressure on Brandon than he puts on himself. With that, we will say good bye. Bye Chris, bye Brandon. Thank you so much. This is a great conversation. It certainly clarified a lot in my mind -- TARAS: Yes, same here. CHARLES: -- About these problems. With that, we will say goodbye. Thank you for listening The Frontside Podcast. Please get in touch with us at @TheFrontside on Twitter or contact at Frontside.io on email. We do a range of custom services from full stack project development to JavaScript mentoring, to as you go JavaScript help desks kind of stuff. If you need to reach out to an expert, please get in touch. Our podcast as always is produced by the inimitable, Mandy Moore. Thank you very much and we'll see you all next time.

This week's Q&A Episode features actor, comedian, and magician Chris Williams.His resume is as diverse as his performance credits. You may know him as Hoover from Silicon Valley, Krazee Eyez Killa from Curb Your Enthusiasm, or Dwight from Dodgeball. He also just happens to be related to former Miss America and actress Vanessa Williams.Regardless of where you may recognize him, after two and half decades in the industry, he has become a natural at gaining people's interest and getting noticed. In our conversation, Chris shares what he's learned about breaking the ice, making powerful impressions, how to handle rejection, and more. He also helps Johnny & AJ answer questions from our audience. “Own who you are as you enter a room, what you can contribute and what you bring to the table.” – Chris Williams CHEAT SHEETRemember! If you have a question you would like Johnny & AJ to answer you can reach them at 1-855-ART-OF-CHARM. Calling not your style? Tweet us or send a DM on Instagram to @theartofcharm. You'll learn about Chris… How his sibling rivalry inspired pride and drive to carve his own path.Why acting (and life) is like surfing - and why enjoying the wait for the perfect wave is not wasted time.How to use door frames to actually “frame” your first impression, and other techniques to make a powerful first impression learned from the auditioningWhat Toblerone chocolates and the power of acknowledgment have in common. And Chris helps Johnny & AJ tackle YOUR Questions: “What's the smoothest ice-breaking technique you can come up with? - Ben“Any good tricks for getting people to put down their phones and start talking?” - Matthew“What is the easiest way to eject out of a low-value conversation, that you realize you are not interested in talking to?” - Bruno“What are the signs to look for when someone finds a question uninteresting?” - Jeff“How do you identify if eye contact is meaningful or awkward?” - Trent There is no magical combination of words. In reality, it's taking an interest in the other person - AJ We weren't all born as confident and charismatic as Chris Williams. You'll hear in the episode, even he had to learn how to have faith in himself in his early career. From July 22 to July 28, we are hosting a 7-Day Sprint to Confidence Challenge. You can join by CLICKING HERE. You'll be surrounded by fellow confidence seekers and supported by our AoC Coaching Staff.BAKblade 2.0 – a DIY back shaver includes a curved ergonomic handle to reach all those hard-to-reach areas. Use discount code CHARM20 for 20% on all orders over $30.Art of Charm listeners can get ANY PREMIUM INDOCHINO suit for just $379 + FREE Shipping when entering “CHARM” at checkout. This is 50% off the regular price for a made-to-measure premium suit. Incredible deal for a suit that will fit you better than anything off-the-rack ever could. Resource LinksListen to other episodes in the Breaking the Ice Series:Episode 710: The Art of Breaking the IceEpisode 711: The Art of Talking to StrangersEpisode 712: The Like Switch with Dr. Jack SchaferStay connected to Chris Williams: Instagram | Twitter Keep up with The Art of CharmShare even your smallest victories with us! We love to celebrate the Art of Charm community at the end of every episode. Send us a message or tag us on your favorite social media platform - @theartofcharm on Instagram | Twitter | FacebookOther AoC Resources: The Art of Charm - 7 Day Sprint to ConfidenceThe Art of Charm ChallengeThe Art of Charm InsidersThe Art of Charm BootcampBest of The Art of Charm Podcast What do you love about Shownotes? The article-like recap? Key Questions? Quotes? Let us know what your perfect episode recap looks like here. Enjoying what you hear? Your reviews are so valuable to us and to those who haven't discovered The Art of Charm podcast yet. Click here to share your Art of Charm experience. A big thank you to Chris. We're grateful he was able to make the time to help us figure out how to break the ice and gain people's interest - which he practices daily as a working actor. AND for inspiring us to eat fermented shark while in Iceland… a memory we won't soon forget!