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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. Show references:  Anna Preedy, Director M+H Showhttps://show.museumsandheritage.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/annapreedy/Jon Horsfield, CRO at Centegra, a Cinchio Solutions Partnerhttps://cinchio.com/uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-horsfield-957b3a4/Dom Jones, CEO, Mary Rose Trust https://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jonesPaul Woolf, Trustee at Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-woolf/Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director, Stephen Spencer + Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/stephen-spencerSarah Bagg, Founder, ReWork Consultinghttps://reworkconsulting.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/sarah-baggJeremy Mitchell, Chair of Petersfield Museum and Art Galleryhttps://www.petersfieldmuseum.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-mitchell-frsa-4529b95/Rachel Kuhn, Associate Director, BOP Consultinghttps://www.bop.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuhnrachel/  Transcriptions:Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. You join me today, out and about yet again. This time I am in London at Olympia for the Museums and Heritage Show. Hotly anticipated event in everybody's diary. We all look forward to it. Two days of talks and exhibitions and workshops. Just a whole lot of networking and fun. And of course, we've got the M and H awards as well. So in this episode, I am going to be joined by a number of different people from across the sector, museum and cultural institution professionals, we've got some consultants, we've got some suppliers to the industry, all pretty much giving us their take on what they've seen, what they're doing and what their thoughts are for the year ahead. So, without further ado, let's meet our first guest. Andy Povey: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thank you for giving us some of your time on what must be a massively busy day for you. I wonder if you could just tell the audience who you are, what you do, a little bit about what museums and heritage is, because not everyone listening to the podcast comes from the museum sector. Anna Preedy: Andy, thanks. This is a great opportunity and always really lovely to see your happy smiley face at the Museums and Heritage Show. So M and H, as we're often referred to as, stands for Museums and Heritage and we're a small business that organises the principal trade exhibition for the Museums and Heritage sector that could be broadened, I suppose, into the cultural sector. We also have the awards ceremony for the sector and an online magazine. So we are Museums and Heritage, but we're often referred to as M and H and we've been around for a very long time, 30 plus years. Andy Povey: Oh, my word. Anna Preedy: I know. Andy Povey: And what's your role within the organisation? Your badge says Event Director today. That's one of many hats. Anna Preedy: I'm sure it is one of many hats because we're a very small team. So I own and manage the events, if you like. M and H is my baby. I've been doing it for a very long time. I feel like I'm truly immersed in the world of museums and heritage and would like to think that as a result of that, I kind of understand and appreciate some of the issues and then bring everyone together to actually get in the same room and to talk them through at the show. So, yeah, that's what we're about, really. Andy Povey: In a shorthand and obviously the show. We're in the middle of West London. It's a beautifully sunny day here at Olympia. The show is the culmination, I suppose of 12 months of work. So what actually goes in? What does a normal day look like for you on any month other than May? Anna Preedy: Yeah, it was funny actually. Sometimes people, I think, well, what do you do for the rest of the year? You just turn up to London for a couple of days, just turn up delivering an event like this. And also our award scheme is literally three, six, five days of the year job. So the moment we leave Olympia in London, we're already planning the next event. So it really is all encompassing. So I get involved in a lot. As I say, we're a small team, so I'm the person that tends to do most of the programming for the show. So we have 70 free talks. Everything at the show is free to attend, is free to visit. So we have an extensive programme of talks. We have about 170 exhibitors. Anna Preedy: So I'm, although I have a sales team for that, I'm managing them and looking after that and working with some of those exhibitors and then I'm very much involved in our awards. So the Museums and Heritage Awards look to celebrate and reward the very best in our sector and shine the spotlight on that not just in the UK but around the world. So we have a judging panel and I coordinate that. So pretty much every decision, I mean you look at the colour of the carpet, that which incidentally is bright pink, you look at the colour of the carpet here, who made the decision what colour it would be in the aisles this year it was me. So I, you know, I do get heavily involved in all the nitty gritty as well as the biggest strategic decisions. Andy Povey: Fantastic. Here on the show floor today it is really busy, there are an awful lot of people there. So this is all testament to everything that you've done to make this the success that it is. I'm sure that every exhibitor is going to walk away with maybe not a full order book, but definitely a fistful of business cards. Anna Preedy: I think that's it, what we really want. And we sort of build this event as the big catch up and we do that for a reason. And that is really to kind of give two days of the year people put those in their diary. It's a space where people can come together. So you know, there'll be people here standing on stands who obviously and understandably want to promote their product or service and are looking to generate new business. And then our visitors are looking for those services and enjoying the talks and everyone comes together and it's an opportunity to learn and network and connect and to do business in the broadest possible sense. Really. Andy Povey: No, I think that the line, the big catch up really sums the show up for me. I've been. I think I worked out on the way in this morning. It's the 15th time I've been to the show. It's one of my favourite in the year because it is a fantastic mix of the curatorial, the commercial, everything that goes into running a successful museum or heritage venue. Anna Preedy: I mean, it's funny when people ask me to summarise. I mean, for a start, it's quite difficult. You know, really, it should be museums, galleries, heritage, visitor, attractions, culture. You know, it is a very diverse sector and if you think about everything that goes into making a museum or a gallery or a historic house function, operate, engage, it's as diverse as the organisational types are themselves and we try and bring all of that together. So, you know, whether you are the person that's responsible for generating income in your organisation, and perhaps that might be retail or it might be catering, it could be any. Any stream of income generation, there's going to be content for you here just as much as there's going to be content for you here. Anna Preedy: If you are head of exhibitions or if you are perhaps wearing the marketing hat and actually your job is, you know, communications or audience development, we try and represent the sector in its broadest scope. So there is something for everyone, quite. Andy Povey: Literally, and that's apparent just from looking on the show floor. So with all of your experience in the museum sector, and I suppose you get to see. See quite an awful lot of new stuff, new products. So what are you anticipating happening in the next sort of 6 to 12 months in our sector? Anna Preedy: I mean, that's a big question because, you know, going back to what were just saying, and the kind of different verticals, if you like, that sit within the sector, but I think the obvious one probably has to be AI, and the influence of that. I'm not saying that's going to change everything overnight. It won't, but it's. You can see the ripples already and you can see that reflected out here on the exhibition floor with exhibitors, and you can also see it in our programme. So this sort of AI is only, you know, one aspect of, you know, the bigger, wider digital story. But I just think it's probably more about the sector evolving than it is about, you know, grand sweeping changes in any one direction. Anna Preedy: But the other thing to say, of course, is that as funding gets more the sort of the economic landscape, you know, is tough. Undeniably so. So generating revenue and finding new ways to do that and prioritising it within your organisation, but not at the expense of everything else that's done. And it should never be at the expense of everything else that's done. And it's perfectly possible to do both. Nobody's suggesting that it's easy, nothing's easy but, you know, it's possible. Anna Preedy: And I think the show here, and also what we do online in terms of, you know, news and features, all of that, and what other organisations are doing in this sector, of course, and the partners we work with, but I think just helping kind of bridge that gap really, and to provide solutions and to provide inspiration and actually, you know, there's no need to reinvent the wheel constantly. Actually, I think it was somebody that worked in the sector. I'm reluctant to names, but there was somebody I remember once saying, well, know, stealing with glee is kind of, you know, and I think actually, you know, if you see somebody else is doing something great and actually we see that in our wards, you know, that's the whole point. Let's shine a spotlight on good work. Well, that might inspire someone else. Anna Preedy: It's not about ripping something off and it's not absolute replication. But actually, you know, scalable changes in your organisation that may have been inspired by somebody else's is only a good thing as well. Andy Povey: It's all that evolutionary process, isn't it? So, great experience. Thank you on behalf of everybody that's come to the show today. Anna Preedy: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it, I really genuinely do and there is nothing like the buzz of a busy event. Jon Horsfield: Yeah, My name is Jon Horsfield, I'm the Chief Revenue Officer of Cincio Solutions. Andy Povey: And what does Cincio do? Jon Horsfield: We provide F and B technology, so kiosks, point of sale payments, kitchen systems, inventory, self checkout to the museums, heritage zoos, aquariums and hospitality industries. Andy Povey: Oh, fantastic. So I understand this is your first time here at the Museums and Heritage Show. Jon Horsfield: It is our first time. It's been an interesting learning curve. Andy Povey: Tell me more. Jon Horsfield: Well, our background is very much within the hospitality. We've been operating for about 20 to 23 years within the sort of high street hospitality side of things. Some of our London based listeners may have heard of Leon Restaurants or Coco Di Mama, we've been working with them for over 20 years. But we're looking at ways of bringing that high street technology into other industries and other Verticals and the museums and heritage is a vertical that we've identified as somewhere that could probably do with coming into the 21st century with some of the technology solutions available. Andy Povey: I hear what you're saying. So what do you think of the show? What are your first impressions? Give me your top three tips. Learning points. Jon Horsfield: Firstly, this industry takes a long time to get to know people. It seems to be long lead times. That's the first learning that we've had. Our traditional industry in hospitality, people will buy in this industry. It's going to take some time and we're happy about that. We understand that. So for us, this is about learning about know about how the industry works. Everybody's really friendly. Andy Povey: We try. Yeah. Jon Horsfield: That's one of the first things that we found out with this. This industry is everybody is really friendly and that's quite nice. Even some of our competitors, we're having nice conversations with people. Everybody is really lovely. The third point is the fact that I didn't know that there were so many niche markets and I found out where my mother buys her scarves and Christmas presents from. So it's been really interesting seeing the different types of things that people are looking for. We've sort of noticed that it's really about preservation. That's one of the main areas. There's a lot of things about preservation. Another one is about the display, how things are being displayed, and lots of innovative ways of doing that. But also the bit that we're really interested in is the commercialization. Jon Horsfield: There's a real push within the industry to start to commercialise things and bring in more revenue from the same people. Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's all about securing the destiny so that you're not reliant on funding from external parties or government and you taking that control. So what do you do at Centrio that helps? Jon Horsfield: Well, first of all. First of all, I would say the efficiencies that we can bring with back office systems integrations. We're very well aware of what we do, we're also aware of what we don't do. So, for example, we're not a ticketing provider, we're a specialist retail and F and B supplier. So it's about building those relationships and actually integrating. We've got a lot of integrations available and we're very open to that. So that's the first thing. But one of the key things that we're trying to bring to this industry is the way that you can use technology to increase revenue. So the kiosks that we've got here, it's proven that you'll get a minimum average transaction value increase of 10 to 15%. Andy Povey: And what do you put that down to? Jon Horsfield: The ability to upsell. Okay, with kiosks, as long as, if you put, for example, with a burger, if you just have a nice little button, say would you like the bacon fries with that? It's an extra few pounds. Well, actually if you've got an extra few pounds on every single transaction, that makes an incredible difference to the bottom line. From the same number of customers. Some of our clients over in the USA have seen an ATV increase above to 60% with the use of kiosks. Andy Povey: And that's just through selling additional fries. Jon Horsfield: Exactly. People will. I went to a talk many years ago when people started to adopt kiosks and the traditional thing is the fact that people will order two Big Macs and a fries to a kiosk, but when you go face to face, they will not order two Big Macs and a fries. Andy Povey: So you're saying I'm a shy fatty who's basically. Jon Horsfield: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, Andy. Absolutely not. So that's really what it's about. It's about using the sort of the high street technology and applying that to a different industry and trying to bring everybody along with us. Dominic Jones: And you need to listen to the Skip the Queue. It's the best podcast series ever. It'll give you this industry. Paul Marden: Perfect. That was a lovely little sound bite. Dom, welcome. Dominic Jones: It's the truth. It's the truth. I love Skip the Queue. Paul Marden: Welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul, welcome. For your first time, let's just start with a quick introduction. Dom, tell everybody about yourself. Dominic Jones: So I'm Dominic Jones, I'm the chief executive of the Mary Rose Trust and I'm probably one of Skip the Queue's biggest fans. Paul Marden: I love it. And biggest stars. Dominic Jones: Well, I don't know. At one point I was number one. Paul Marden: And Paul, what about yourself? What's your world? Paul Woolf: Well, I'm Paul Woolf, I've just joined the Mary Rose as a trustee. Dom's been kind of hunting me down politely for a little bit of time. When he found out that I left the King's Theatre, he was very kind and said, right, you know, now you've got time on your hands, you know, would you come over and help? So yeah, so my role is to support Dom and to just help zhuzh things up a bit, which is kind of what I do and just bring some new insights into the business and to develop It a bit. And look at the brand, which is where my skills. Dominic Jones: Paul is underselling himself. He is incredible. And the Mary Rose Trust is amazing. You haven't visited. You should visit. We're in Portsmouth Historic Dock blog. But what's great about it is it's about attracting great people. I'm a trustee, so I'm a trustee for good whites. I'm a trustee for pomp in the community. I know you're a trustee for kids in museums. I love your posts and the fact that you come visit us, but it's about getting the right team and the right people and Paul has single handedly made such a difference to performance art in the country, but also in Portsmouth and before that had a massive career in the entertainment. So we're getting a talent. It's like getting a Premiership player. And we got Paul Woolf so I am delighted. Dominic Jones: And we brought him here to the Museum Heritage show to say this is our industry because we want him to get sucked into it because he is going to be incredible. You honestly, you'll have a whole episode on him one day. Paul Marden: And this is the place to come, isn't it? Such a buzz about the place. Paul Woolf: I've gone red. I've gone red. Embarrassed. Paul Marden: So have you seen some talks already? What's been impressive for you so far, Paul? Paul Woolf: Well, we did actually with the first talk we were listening to was all about touring and reducing your environmental impact on touring, which is quite interesting. And what I said there was that, you know, as time gone by and we had this a little bit at theatre actually. But if you want to go for grant funding today, the first question on the grant funding form, almost the first question after the company name and how much money you want is environmental impact. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Paul Woolf: And so if you're going tour and we're looking now, you know, one of the things that Dom and I have been talking about is, you know, Mary Rose is brilliant. It's fantastic. You know, it's great. It's in the dockyard in Portsmouth and you know, so. And, and the Andes, New York, you know, everywhere. Dominic Jones: Take her on tour. Paul Woolf: Why isn't it on tour? Yeah. Now I know there are issues around on tour. You know, we've got the collections team going. Yeah, don't touch. But nonetheless it was interesting listening to that because obviously you've got to. Now you can't do that. You can't just put in a lorry, send it off and. And so I thought that was quite interesting. Dominic Jones: Two, it's all the industry coming together. It's not about status. You can come here as a student or as a CEO and you're all welcome. In fact, I introduced Kelly from Rubber Cheese, your company, into Andy Povey and now you guys have a business together. And I introduced them here in this spot outside the men's toilets at Museum and Heritage. Paul Woolf: Which is where we're standing, by the way. Everybody, we're outside the toilet. Dominic Jones: It's the networking, it's the talks. And we're about to see Bernard from ALVA in a minute, who'll be brilliant. Paul Marden: Yes. Dominic Jones: But all of these talks inspire you and then the conversations and just seeing you Andy today, I'm so delighted. And Skip the Queue. He's going from strength to strength. I love the new format. I love how you're taking it on tour. You need to bring it to the May Rose next. Right. Paul Marden: I think we might be coming sometimes soon for a conference near you. Dominic Jones: What? The Association of Independent Museums? Paul Marden: You might be doing an AIM conference with you. Dominic Jones: Excellent. Paul Marden: Look, guys, it's been lovely to talk to you. Enjoy the rest of your day here at M and H. Paul Marden: Stephen, welcome back to Skip the Queue. Stephen Spencer: Thank you very much. Paul Marden: For listeners, remind them what you do. Stephen Spencer: So I'm Stephen Spencer. My company, Stephen Spencer Associates, we call ourselves the Ambience Architects because we try to help every organisation gain deeper insight into the visitor experience as it's actually experienced by the visitor. I know it sounds a crazy idea, really, to achieve better impact and engagement from visitors and then ultimately better sustainability in all senses for the organisation. Paul Marden: For listeners, the Ambience Lounge here at M and H is absolutely rammed at the moment. Stephen Spencer: I'm trying to get in myself. Paul Marden: I know, it's amazing. So what are you hoping for this networking lounge? Stephen Spencer: Well, what we're aiming to do is create a space for quality conversations, for people to meet friends and contacts old and new, to discover new technologies, new ideas or just really to come and have a sounding board. So we're offering free one to one advice clinic. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Stephen Spencer: Across a whole range of aspects of the visitor journey, from core mission to revenue generation and storytelling. Because I think, you know, one of the things we see most powerfully being exploited by the successful organisations is that kind of narrative thread that runs through the whole thing. What am I about? Why is that important? Why should you support me? How do I deliver that and more of it in every interaction? Paul Marden: So you're Having those sorts of conversations here with people on a one to one basis. Stephen Spencer: Then we also are hosting the structured networking event. So all of the sector support organisations that are here, they have scheduled networking events when really people can just come and meet their peers and swap experiences and again find new people to lean on and be part of an enriched network. Paul Marden: Absolutely. So we are only half a day in, not even quite half a day into a two day programme. So it's very early to say, but exciting conversations, things are going in the direction that you hoped for. Stephen Spencer: Yes, I think, I mean, we know that the sector is really challenged at the moment, really, the fact that we're in now such a crazy world of total constant disruption and uncertainty. But equally we offer something that is reassuring, that is enriching, it's life enhancing. We just need to find better ways to, to do that and reach audiences and reach new audiences and just keep them coming back. And the conversations that I've heard so far have been very much around that. So it's very exciting. Paul Marden: Excellent. One of themes of this episode that we'll be talking to lots of people about is a little bit of crystal ball gazing. You're right, the world is a hugely, massively disrupted place at the moment. But what do you see the next six or 12 months looking like and then what does it look like for the sector in maybe a five year time horizon? Stephen Spencer: Okay, well, you don't ask easy questions. So I think there will be a bit of a kind of shaking down in what we understand to be the right uses of digital technology, AI. I think we see all the mistakes that were made with social media and what it's literally done to the world. And whilst there are always examples of, let's say, museums using social media very cleverly and intelligently, we know that's against the backdrop of a lot of negativity and harm. So why would we want to repeat that, for example, with generative AI? Paul Marden: Indeed. Stephen Spencer: So I heard a talk about two years ago at the VAT conference about using AI to help the visitor to do the stuff that is difficult for them to do. In other words, to help them build an itinerary that is right for them. And I think until everyone is doing that, then they should be very wary of stepping off the carpet to try and do other things with it. Meanwhile, whilst it's an immersive experience, it is not just sitting in, you know, with all respect to those that do this, A, you know, surround sound visual box, it is actually what it's always been, which is meeting real people in authentic spaces and places, you know, using all the senses to tell stories. So I think we will need to see. Stephen Spencer: I've just been given a great coffee because that's the other thing we're offering in the coffee. It's good coffee. Not saying you can't get anywhere else in the show, just saying it's good here. Yeah. I think just some realism and common sense creeping into what we really should be using these technologies for and not leaving our visitors behind. I mean, for example, you know, a huge amount of the natural audience for the cultural sector. You know, people might not want to hear it, but we all know it's true. It's older people. And they aren't necessarily wanting to have to become digital natives to consume culture. So we shouldn't just say, you know, basically, unless you'll download our app, unless you'll do everything online, you're just going to be left behind. That's crazy. It doesn't make good business sense and it's not right. Stephen Spencer: So I just think some common sense and some. Maybe some regulation that will happen around uses of AI that might help and also, you know, around digital harms and just getting back to some basics. I was talking to a very old colleague earlier today who had just come back from a family holiday to Disney World, and he said, you know, you can't beat it, you cannot beat it. For that is immersive. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But it's not sealed in a box. Stephen Spencer: No, no. And it really. It's a bit like Selfridges. I always took out. My favourite store is Selfridges. It still does what Harry Gordon Selfridge set out to do. He said, "Excite the mind and the hand will reach for the pocket." I always say. He didn't say excite the eye, he said, excite the mind. Paul Marden: Yeah. Stephen Spencer: The way you do that is through all the senses. Paul Marden: Amazing. Stephen Spencer: And so, you know, digital. I'm sure he'd be embracing that. He would be saying, what about the rest of it? Paul Marden: How do you add the human touch to that? Yeah. I was at Big Pit last week. Stephen Spencer: As they reopened, to see this. Yeah. Paul Marden: And it was such an amazing experience walking through that gift shop. They have so subtly brought the museum into the gift shop and blended the two really well. Stephen Spencer: Yes. And I think that raises the bar. And again, if you want to make more money as a museum, you need to be embracing that kind of approach, because if you just carry on doing what you've always done, your revenue will go down. Paul Marden: Yes. Stephen Spencer: And we all know your revenue needs to go up because other. Other sources of income will be going down. Paul Marden: Sarah, welcome back to Skip the Queue last time you were here, there was a much better looking presenter than, you were in the Kelly era. Sarah Bagg: Yes, we were. Paul Marden: It's almost as if there was a demarcation line before Kelly and after Kelly. Why don't you just introduce yourself for me? Tell the listeners what it is that you do. Sarah Bagg: So I'm Sarah Bagg. I'm the founder of Rework Consulting. The last time I spoke, it wasn't that long after our launch. I think like two and a half years ago. We've just had our third birthday. Paul Marden: Wow. Sarah Bagg: Which is completely incredible. When we first launched rework, were specifically for the visitor attractions industry and focused on ticketing. Paul Marden: Yep. Sarah Bagg: So obviously we are a tech ticketing consultancy business. In the last three and a half years we've grown and now have five verticals. So attractions are one of them. Paul Marden: And who else do you work with then? Sarah Bagg: So the art, the leisure industry. So whether it be activity centres, cinemas, bowling centres and then live entertainment. So it could be anything from sports, festivals etc and the arts, like theatres or. Paul Marden: So closely aligned to your attractions. Then things that people go and do but different kinds of things loosely. Sarah Bagg: Say they're like live entertainment. Paul Marden: I like that. That's a nice description. So this must be Mecca for you to have all of these people brought together telling amazing stories. Sarah Bagg: I think how I would sum up museum and heritage today is that I think we're kind of going through a period of like being transformed, almost like back. People are reconstructing, connecting with real experiences and with people. Paul Marden: Yeah. Sarah Bagg: And I would like to think that tech is invisible and they're just to support the experience. I think there's a lot of things that are going on at the moment around, you know, bit nostalgia and people dragging themselves back to the 90s. And there's a lot of conversations about people and customer service and experience. And although technology plays a huge part in that, I would still like to think that people come first and foremost, always slightly weird from a technology consultant. Paul Marden: Well, nobody goes to a visitor attraction to be there on their own and interact with technology. That's not the point of being there. Yeah. Interesting talks that you've been today. Sarah Bagg: I think one of my favourite was actually one of the first of the day, which was about. Of how do you enhance the visitor experience through either like music and your emotions and really tapping into how you feel through, like all your different senses. Which was one of Stephen's talks which I really enjoyed. Paul Marden: That's really interesting. Sarah Bagg: I think if people like look at the visitor industry and across the board, that's why I'm so keen to stay, like across four different sectors, we can learn so much pulling ideas from like hospitality and restaurants and bars.Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: Even if you think about like your best, there's a new bar there, so you can not very far from my home in Brighton and the service is an amazing. And the design of the space really caters for whether you're in there with 10 people or whether you're sat at the bar on your own. It doesn't exclude people, depending on what age you are or why you gone into the bar. And I think we can learn a lot in the visitor attractions industry because there's been a lot of talk about families today. I don't have children and I think that there, you need. Sarah Bagg: We need to think more about actually that lots of other people go to visitor attractions Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: And they don't necessarily take children and they might want to go on their own. Yes, but what are we doing to cater for all of those people? There's nothing. Paul Marden: How do you make them feel welcome? How do you make them feel like they're a first class guest? The same as everybody else. Yeah. So where do you see the sector going over the next few years based on what you've seen today? Sarah Bagg: I think there'll be a lot more diversification between sectors. There's definitely a trend where people have got their assets. You know, like if you're looking at things like safari parks and zoos, places that have already got accommodation, but maybe like stately houses where there used to be workers that were living in those cottages or whatever, that they're sweating their assets. I think it would be interesting to see where tech takes us with that because there has been a tradition in the past that if you've got like, if your number one priority to sell is being like your hotel, then you would have like a PMS solution. But if it's the other way around, your number one priority is the attraction or the venue and you happen to have some accommodation, then how is that connecting to your online journey? Sarah Bagg: Because the last thing you want is like somebody having to do two separate transactions. Paul Marden: Oh, completely drives me crazy. Sarah Bagg: One thing I would also love to see is attractions thinking beyond their 10 till 6 opening hours completely. Because some days, like restaurants, I've seen it, you know, maybe they now close on Mondays and Tuesdays so they can give their staff a day off and they have different opening hours. Why are attractions still fixated in like keeping these standard opening hours? Because actually you might attract a completely different audience. There used to be a bit of a trend for like doing museum late. So I was speaking to a museum not very long ago about, you know, do they do like morning tours, like behind the scenes, kind of before it even opens. And I think the museum particularly said to me, like, "Oh, we're fine as we are.". Paul Marden: I've never met a museum that feels fine where it is at the moment. Sarah Bagg: But I guess the one thing I would love to see if I could sprinkle my fairy dus. Paul Marden: Come the revolution and you're in charge. Sarah Bagg: And it's not like, it's not even like rocket science, it's more investment into training and staff because the people that work in our industry are like the gold, you know, it's not tech, it's not pretty set works, it's not like fancy display cases. Yes, the artefacts and stuff are amazing. Paul Marden: But the stories, the people stuff. Yeah. Sarah Bagg: Give them empowerment and training and make the customer feel special. Paul Marden: Yes. Sarah Bagg: When you leave, like you've had that experience, you're only ever going to get that from through the people that you interact with completely. Paul Marden: Jeremy, hello. Welcome to Skip the Queue. We are, we are being slightly distracted by a dinosaur walking behind us. Such is life at M and H show. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah. Paul Marden: So. Jeremy Mitchell: Well, anything to do with museums and dinosaurs, always great crowd pleasers. Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. So is this your first time at M and H or have you been before? Jeremy Mitchell: Been before, but probably not for 10 years or more. It was, yes. I remember last time I came the theatres were enclosed so they were partitioned all the way around. Paul Marden: Right. Jeremy Mitchell: But because it's so popular now that would not just not would not work. It's a long time ago. It shows how long I've been volunteering. Paul Marden: In museums, doesn't it? So for our listeners, Jeremy, just introduce yourself and tell everyone about the role that you've got at the Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: Okay, so I'm Jeremy Mitchell. I'm a trustee at Petersfield Museum now Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery. I'm actually now chair of trustees. Paul Marden: Paint a little picture for us of Petersfield Museum then. What could someone expect if they came to you? Apart from, as I understand, a very good cup of coffee. Jeremy Mitchell: A very good cup of coffee. Best in Petersfield. And that's not bad when there are 32 competitors. You'll get a little bit of everything you'll get a bit of. You'll get the story of Petersfield, but you'll get so much more. We've got collections of costume going back to the mid 18th century. We've got work of a local artist, Flora Torte, one of those forgotten female artists from between the wars. She's a story that we will be exploring. We've got, in partnership with the Edward Thomas Fellowship, a big archive of books and other artefacts by and about Edward Thomas, who was a poet, writer, literary critic. He's one of the poets killed in the First World War. But he's not well known as a war poet because he was writing about the impact of war on life at home. Jeremy Mitchell: So he's now more well known as a nature poet. Paul Marden: So you're telling the story not just of the place, you're telling the story of the people that have produced great art or had an impact on Petersfield. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. And their networks and how they might relate to Petersfield in turn. And we've got the costume collection I mentioned going back to the mid 18th century, which came from Bedale School. They've all got stories to them. Paul Marden: Interesting. Jeremy Mitchell: This came from Bedale School, which is a private school on the edge of Petersfield. It was actually collected by their drama teacher between the 1950s and the 1970s. Paul Marden: Wow. Jeremy Mitchell: Because she believed in authenticity. So if she was putting on a 19th century production, she would want genuine 19th century clothes. Paul Marden: Let me tell you, my drama productions in a 1980s comprehensive did not include authentic 19th century costumes. Jeremy Mitchell: If were doing something like that at school, their parents would have been, all right, go down to the jumble sale, buy some material, make something that looks something like it. Paul Marden: Yeah. Jeremy Mitchell: But no, she was, well, if you haven't got anything in your attic that's suitable, please send me some money because there's a sale at Sotheby's in three months. Time off costume from the period. Paul Marden: Excellent. Jeremy Mitchell: And we've got some lovely pieces in there. When we put on the Peggy Guggenheim exhibition, which is what were talking about earlier today here, were able to bring in costume from the 1930s, Chanel dress, other high quality, not. Not necessarily worn by Peggy Guggenheim, but her. Paul Marden: Authentic of the period. Jeremy Mitchell: Authentic of the period. But her son was at Bedale, so she could have been asked to donate. Paul Marden: So. Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Highly unlikely, but it was similar to items that she had been photographed in or would have been. Would have been wearing. Paul Marden: So tell me about the. The presentation. How was that? Jeremy Mitchell: It went so quickly. Paul Marden: Oh, yes. You get in the zone don't you? Jeremy Mitchell: You get in the zone. But it flowed and Louise was great. Louise had done the bulk of the. The work. She prepared the presentation that visually told the story of the exhibition and its outcomes and impacts. And I filled in the boring book, I call it the BBC, the boring but crucial. How we funded it, how we organised the project, management around it, the planning and getting buy in from the rest of the trustees at the beginning, because it was potentially a big financial commitment if we hadn't been able to fund it. Paul Marden: Isn't it interesting? So coming to an event like this is always. There's always so much to learn, it's always an enriching experience to come. But it's a great opportunity, isn't it, for a small museum and art gallery such as Petersfield? It feels a little bit like you're punching above your weight, doesn't it, to be invited onto this stage to talk about it. But really you're telling this amazing story and it's of interest to everybody that's here. Jeremy Mitchell: We want to share it. If we've been able to do it, then why can't they? Why can't you? Why can't we all do it? And yes, you need the story, but if you dig deep enough, those stories are there. Paul Marden: Absolutely, Absolutely. One of the things that is a real common conversation here, M and H, is looking forward, crystal ball gazing, talking. There's challenges in the sector, isn't there? There's lots of challenges around funding and I guess as a small museum, you must feel those choppy waters quite acutely. Jeremy Mitchell: Definitely. I mean, we're an independent museum, so we're not affected by spending cuts because we don't get any funding from that area. But the biggest challenge is from the funding perspective. Yes, we have a big income gap every year that we need to bridge. And now that so much more of the sector is losing what was its original core funding, they're all fishing in the same pond as us and they've got. Invariably they've got a fundraising team probably bigger than our entire museum team, let alone the volunteer fundraiser that we've got. So, yes, it is a challenge and you are having to run faster just to stand still. The ability to put on an exhibition like Peggy Guggenheim shows that we are worth it. Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Jeremy Mitchell: And the Guggenheim was funded by Art Fund Western loan programme and an Arts Council project grant. And it was a large Arts Council project grant. Paul Marden: So although everyone's fishing in the same pond as you're managing to yeah. To stretch my analogy just a little bit too far, you are managing to. To get some grant funding and. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. Paul Marden: And lift some tiddlers out the pond. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. But it was quite clear that with Peggy it was a story that had to be told. Paul Marden: So we talked a little bit about challenging times. But one of the big opportunities at M and H is to be inspired to think about where the opportunities are going forwards. You've had a day here today. What are you thinking as inspiration as next big things for Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: I'm finding that really difficult because we're small, we're a small site, Arkansas, I think has got to be a way forward. I miss the talk. But they're all being recorded. Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: So I shall be picking that one up with interest. But AR is something. We've got police cells. Well, we've got a police cell. Paul Marden: Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Now, wouldn't it be great to tell an augmented reality story of Victorian justice to kids? Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: While they're sat in a victory in a Victorian police cell on a hard wooden bench. That is the original bench that this prisoners would have slept on. Paul Marden: I've done enough school visits to know there's enough kids that I could put in a jail just to keep them happy or to at least keep them quiet whilst the rest of us enjoy our visit. Yes. I feel like I need to come to Petersfield and talk more about Peggy because I think there might be an entire episode of Skip the Queue to talk just about putting on a big exhibition like that. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah, no, definitely. If you drop me an email you can skip the queue and I'll take you around. Paul Marden: Oh lovely, Rachel, welcome to Skip the Queue. You join me here at M and H show. And we've taken over someone's stand, haven't we? I know, it feels a bit weird, doesn't it? Rachel Kuhn: I feel like we're squatting but I. Paul Marden: Feel a little bit like the Two Ronnies, cuz we're sat behind the desk. It's very strange. Which one are you? Anyway, just for listeners. Introduce yourself for me. Tell listeners what it is that you do at BOP Consulting. Rachel Kuhn: Yeah, so I'm Rachel Kuhn, I'm an associate director at BOP and we specialise in culture and the creative economy and kind of working across everything that is to do with culture and creative economy globally. But I lead most of our strategy and planning projects, particularly in the UK and Ireland, generally working with arts, heritage, cultural organisations, from the very earliest big picture strategy through to real nitty gritty sort of operational plans and outside of bop. I'm a trustee for Kids in Museums, where we love to hang, and also a new trustee with the Postal Museum. Paul Marden: Given what you do at bop, this must be like the highlight of the year for you to just soak up what everybody is doing. Rachel Kuhn: I love it. I mean, it's so lovely just going around, chatting to everybody, listening in on the talks and I think that spirit of generosity, you know, like, it just comes across, doesn't it? And it just reminds me why I love this sector, why I'm here. You know, everyone wants to, you know, contribute and it's that whole sort of spirit of what do they say? We know when the tide rises, so do all the boats or all the ships. And I feel like that's the spirit here and it's lovely. Paul Marden: It is such a happy place and it's such a busy, vibrant space, isn't it? What have been the standout things for you that you've seen today? Rachel Kuhn: I think probably on that spirit of generosity. Rosie Baker at the founding museum talking about the incredible work they've done with their events, hires, programmes. Obviously got to give a shout out to the Association of Cultural Enterprise. I've been doing a lot of hanging out there at their stage day. So Gurdon gave us the rundown of the benchmarking this morning. Some really good takeaways from that and Rachel Mackay, I mean, like, obviously. Paul Marden: Want to go into. Rachel Kuhn: You always want to see her. Really good fun, but lovely to hear. She's talking about her strategy, the Visitor Experience strategy. And you know what, I spend so much time going into places looking at these sub strategies, like visual experience strategies that just haven't been written in alignment with the overall strategy. So it's lovely to see that linking through, you know, and obviously I'm from a Visitor Experience background, so hugely passionate about the way that Visitor Experience teams can make visitors feel the organization's values. And that alignment was really impressive. So, yeah, really lovely and loads of great takeaways from all those talks. Paul Marden: I will just say for listeners, all of these talks have been recorded, so everyone's going to be able to download the materials. It take a couple of weeks before they were actually published. But one of the questions that I've asked everybody in these vox pops has been, let's do some crystal ball gazing. It's. It stinks at the moment, doesn't it? The, the, the economy is fluctuating, there is so much going on. What do you see 6 to 12 month view look like? And then let's really push the boat out. Can we crystal ball gaze maybe in five years? Rachel Kuhn: Yeah.  I mean, look, I think the whole problem at the moment and what's causing that sort of nervousness is there's just a complete lack of surety about loads of things. You know, in some ways, you know, many organisations have welcomed the extension for the MPO round, the current round, but for many, you know, that's just pushed back the opportunity to get in on that round that little bit further away. It's caused that sort of nervousness with organisations are having to ride on with the same funding that they asked for some years ago that just doesn't, you know, match, you know, and it's actually a real time cut for them. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Rachel Kuhn: So I think, very hard to say, I don't know that there's much I can say. I feel like as at sea as everyone else, I think about what the landscape looks like in the next six months, but I think that never has there been, you know, a better time than something like this like the M and H show. You know, this is about coming together and being generous and sharing that information and I think reaching out to each other and making sure that we're sort of cross pollinating there. There's so much good stuff going on and we've always been really good at that and I think sometimes when we're feeling a bit down, it feels like, oh, I just don't want to go to something like this and meet others and, you know, get into a bit of a misery cycle. Rachel Kuhn: But actually it's so uplifting to be at something like this. And I think, you know, what we've seen here is at the show today, I think, is organisations being really generous with their experience and their expertise. Suppliers and consultants and supporters of the sector being really generous with their time and their expertise and actually just shows just spending a bit of time with each other, asking things of each other. We've just got loads of stuff to share and we're all really up for it. And I think that generosity is so critical and I mean, obviously I'm going to plug, I've got to plug it. Rachel Kuhn: So, you know, if you are a supplier, if you are a commercial business working in this sector, it might be tough times for you, but it's certainly nowhere near as hard as it is for the arts and cultural heritage organisations in the sector. You know, reach out to them and see how you can support them and help them. I mean, you and I have both been on a bit of a drive recently to try and drum up some sponsorship and corporate support for kids in museums who, you know, an Arts council MPO who we're incredible, incredibly proud to represent and, you know, do reach out to us. If you've been thinking, oh, I just want to sponsor something and I'd love to sponsor us. Paul Marden: Exactly. I mean, there's loads of opportunities when you take kids in museums as an example, loads of opportunities for. And this is what Arts Council wants us to do. They want us to be more independent, to generate more of our own funding and we've got a great brand, we do some amazing work and there's lots of opportunities for those commercial organisations who align with our values to help to support us. Rachel Kuhn: So I think you asked me there about what's in the next year. So next year, six months, I don't know is the answer. I think it's just a difficult time. So my advice is simply get out there, connect, learn from each other, energise each other, bring each other up. Let's not get into that sort of doom cycle. That's very easy next five years. You know what, I've had some really interesting meetings and conversations over the last. Well, one particularly interesting one today, some other ones about some funds that might be opening up, which I think is really exciting. You know, we've seen this really big challenge with funding, you know, slowing funding going in much larger amounts to a smaller number of large organisations and that causes real problems. But I think there might be a small turnaround on that. Rachel Kuhn: I'm not crumbs in the earth. I think it's still tough times. But that was really exciting to hear about. I'm also seeing here at the show today. I've been speaking to a lot of suppliers whose their models seem to be shifting a lot. So a lot more opportunities here where it requires no investment from the attraction and a lot more sort of interesting and different types of profit share models, which I think is really interesting. So I think the other thing I'd say is if you're an attraction, don't discount partnering some of these organisations because actually, you know, go and talk to them. Rachel Kuhn: Don't just, don't just count them out because you think you haven't got anything to invest because many of them are visiting new models and the couple that I've spoken to who aren't, learn from your competitors and start doing some different models. And I think that's been really interesting to hear some very different models here for some of the products, which is really exciting. Paul Marden: It is really hard sitting on the other side of the fence, as a supplier, we need cash flow as well. We've got to pay bills and all of those sorts of things. But you're right, there are interesting ways in which we all want to have a conversation. As you say, don't sit back afraid to engage in the conversation because you've got nothing to invest, you've got an important brand, you've got an audience. Those are valuable assets that a supplier like us would want to partner with you to help you to bring a project to life. And that might be on a rev share model, it might be on a service model. There's lots of different ways you can slice it and dice it. Rachel Kuhn: And going back, on a closing note, I suppose, going back to that generosity thing, don't think because you haven't got any money to commission, you know, a supplier to the sector or a commercial company, that you can't reach out to them. Like, you know, we are in this because we really want to support these organisations. This is our passion. You know, many of us are from the sector. You know, I will always connect somebody or introduce somebody or find a way to get a little bit of pro bono happening, or, you know, many of my colleagues are on advisory committees, we're board members. And I think that's the same for so many of the companies that are, like, working with the sector. You know, reach out and ask for freebie, you know, don't ask, don't get. Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. Rachel, it is delightful to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us on Skip the Queue and I am sure, I'm sure we'll make this into a full episode one day soon. I do say that to everybody. Rachel Kuhn: Thanks so much. Lovely to speak to you. Paul Marden: Andy. Andy Povey: Paul.Paul Marden: We've just walked out of the M and H show for another year. What are your thoughts? Andy Povey: First, I'm exhausted, absolutely exhausted. I'm not sure that I can talk anymore because I've spent 48 hours having some of the most interesting conversations I've had all year. Paul Marden: No offence, Tonkin. Andy Povey: You were part of some of those conversations, obviously, Paul. Paul Marden: I was bowled over again by just the sheer number of people that were there and all those lovely conversations and everybody was just buzzing for the whole two days. Andy Povey: The energy was phenomenal. I worked out that something like the 15th show, M & H show that I've been to, and I don't know whether it's just recency because it's sitting in the far front of my mind at the moment, but it seems like this was the busiest one there's ever been. Paul Marden: Yeah, I can believe it. The one thing that didn't change, they're still working on Olympia. Andy Povey: I think that just goes on forever. It's like the fourth Bridge. Paul Marden: Talks that stood out to you. Andy Povey: I really enjoyed interpretation One led by the guy from the sign language education company whose name I can't remember right now. Paul Marden: Yeah, Nate. That was an amazing talk, listeners. We will be getting him on for a full interview. I'm going to solve the problem of how do I make a inherently audio podcast into something that's accessible for deaf people? By translating the podcast medium into some sort of BSL approach. So that was the conversation that we had yesterday after the talk. Andy Povey: I know. I really look forward to that. Then, of course, there was the George and Elise from Complete Works. Paul Marden: I know. They were amazing, weren't they? You couldn't tell at all that they were actors. Do you know, it was really strange when George. So there was a point in that talk that George gave where we all had a collective breathing exercise and it was just. It was. It was so brilliantly done and were all just captivated. There must have been. I rechon there was 100 people at theatre at that point. Absolutely. Because it was standing room only at the back. And were all just captivated by George. Just doing his click. Very, very clever. Andy Povey: But massively useful. I've seen the same thing from George before and I still use it to this day before going on to make a presentation myself. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Andy Povey: Just grounding yourself, centering yourself. Well, it's fantastic. Paul Marden: Yeah. But the whole thing that they were talking about of how do we create opportunities to have meaningful conversations with guests when they arrive or throughout their entire experience at an attraction so that we don't just talk about the weather like we're typical English people. Andy Povey: That's great, isn't it? Go and tell a Brit not to talk. Talk about the weather. Paul Marden: But training your staff makes absolute sense. Training your staff to have the skills and the confidence to not talk about the weather. I thought that was really interesting. Andy Povey: It's an eye opener, isn't it? Something really simple, but could be groundbreaking. Paul Marden: Yeah. Andy Povey: Then what was your view on all of the exhibitors? What did you take away from all the stands and everybody? Paul Marden: Well, I loved having my conversation yesterday with Alan Turing. There was an AI model of Alan Turing that you could interact with and ask questions. And it was really interesting. There was a slight latency, so it didn't feel quite yet like a natural conversation because I would say something. And then there was a pause as Alan was thinking about it. But the things that he answered were absolutely spot on, the questions that I asked. So I thought that was quite interesting. Other exhibitors. Oh, there was a lovely point yesterday where I was admiring, there was a stand doing custom designed socks and I was admiring a design of a Jane Austen sock and there was just somebody stood next to me and I just said, "Oh, Jane Austen socks." Paul Marden: Very on Trend for the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen, that all of the museums in Hampshire will be buying those up. And should funnily you should say that I'm the chief executive of Chawton Park House, which is one of the museums in the last place that Jane Austen lived. So very interesting, very small world moment at that point. Andy Povey: I do, it's almost an oxymoron to talk about Jane Austen socks. I don't imagine her having worn anything with nylon or Lycra in it. Paul Marden: Very true. I hadn't tweaked that. Andy Povey: There was a lot of AI there wasn't there AI this, AI that. Paul Marden: And there were some really good examples of where that is being used in real life. Yeah, yeah. So there were some examples where there's AI being used to help with visitor counts around your attraction, to help you to optimise where you need to put people. I thought that Neil at Symantec just talking about what he called answer engine optimisation. That was interesting. There were some brilliant questions. There was one question from an audience member asking, are there any tools available for you to figure out whether how well your organisation is doing at being the source of truth for AI tools? Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. So almost like your Google search engine ranking. Paul Marden: But exactly for ChatGPT. Andy Povey: And have you found one yet? Paul Marden: No, not yet. There's also quite a lot of people talking about ideas that have yet to find a home. Andy Povey: Yes. What a very beautiful way of putting it. Paul Marden: The people that have. That are presenting a topic that has yet to get a real life case study associated with it. So the rubber hasn't yet hit the road. I don't think on that. Andy Povey: No. I think that's true for an awful lot of AI, isn't it? Not just in our sector. Paul Marden: No. Andy Povey: It's very interesting to see where that's all going to go. And what are we going to think when we look back on this in two or three years time? Was it just another chocolate teapot or a problem looking for a solution? Or was it the revolution that we all anticipate. Paul Marden: And I think it will make fundamentals change. I think it's changing rapidly. But we need more real case studies of how you can do something interesting that is beyond just using ChatGPT to write your marketing copy for you. Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean it's all about putting the guest at the front of it, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the technology, let's look at what the technology is going to enable us to do. And back to the first part of this conversation, looking at accessibility, then are there tools within AI that are going to help with that? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there was definitely. There was an interesting talk by Vox. The people that provide, they provide all of the radio boxes for everybody to wear at M and H that provides you with the voiceover of all of the speakers. But they use this technology across all manner of different attractions and they were talking about using AI to do real time translation of tours. So you could. Andy Povey: Very interesting. Paul Marden: Yeah. So you could have an English speaker wandering around doing your tour and it could real time translate up to. I think it was up to four languages. Andy Povey: BSL not being one of those languages. Paul Marden: Well, no, they were talking about real time in app being able to see subtitles. Now, I don't know whether they went on to say you could do BSL. And we know from the other presentation that not everybody that is deaf is able to read subtitles as fast as they can consume sign language. So it's important to have BSL. But there were some parts of that Vox product that did it address deaf people. It wasn't just multilingual content. Andy Povey: So AI people, if you're listening, you can take the idea of translating into BSL in real time and call it your own. Paul Marden: Yeah, we very much enjoyed hosting our theatre, didn't we? That was a lot. And Anna, if you are listening, and I hope you are, because lots of people have said very nice things in this episode about M and H. Andy and I would love to come back next year. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Paul Marden: And host a theatre for you. Any other thoughts? Andy Povey: Just really looking forward to the rest of the week off. Yeah, it's a sign of a good show when you walk away with all that positive feeling and that positive exhaustion and you probably need a week to reflect on all of the conversations that we've had. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Next up we is AIM Conference at Mary Rose in June. I can't wait very much. Looking forward to that. Thank you ever so much for listening. We will join you again in a few weeks. See you soon. Bye Bye. Andy Povey: Draw.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

The Poet who lived in Steep has a birthday on 3 March and his memory is celebrated with a talk at the Petersfield Bookshop on Thursday 27 February (now fully booked!) and an Anniversary walk around Thomas's Steep, on Sunday 2 March. (meet at Bedale's car park.) Jeremey Mitchell from the Edward Thomas Centre, based at the Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery, spoke to Mike Waddington about the poet, his life and the work of the Edward Thomas Centre, which is also looking for volunteers so the Centre can extend its opening hours and have help cataloguing and researching papers they have there. Robert Frost is a poet very famous in America, he spoke for instance at the Inauguration of President J F Kennedy, but he was inspired by talks and walks around Steep with Thomas. Thomas was killed in France in the FIrst World War and as Jeremey explains, he wasn't a War Poet but rather wrote about the war.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We've been answering some listeners' questions and most of them are tropical in flavour! Martin's been to visit Snape Gardening Club in Bedale, North Yorkshire & the group asked Martin about some exotic plants! The P&T team discuss celeriac, aeoniums, cardamon and even an ornamental banana!Plus, what to do in your garden at this time of the year. Remember, if you email us your gardening question, we'll do our best to answer it on the podcast. #GardeningPodcast #Gardening #garden #Winter #GYO #GrowYourOwnVisit potsandtrowels.com for links to all the videos & podcast episodesEmail Questions to info@potsandtrowels.com Our weekly YouTube videos are here: Pots & Trowels YouTubeThe Pots & Trowels team:Martin FishJill FishSean RileyFind out more about Martin & Jill at martinfish.com Find out more about Sean at boardie.comPodcast produced by the team, edited by Sean, hosted by buzzsprout.com

Kert Variku ja Lari Kunnase hõbemedal on eestlaste parim tulemus külgkorvide motokrossi MM-sarjas. Lennujaamas oli neid vastu võtmas hulk rahvast ja saates on sellel vastuvõtul salvestatud intervjuud Kert Variku ja tema mentori ja eeskuju Are Kauritiga, kes 2004. aastal tuli samas sarjas pronksile.

In this episode we explore the wonderful green spaces we have and what they mean to us. We talk to Faith and about Thorp PerrowThe Arboretum covers 100 acres and is currently home to 5 National Plant Collections and 51 Champion Trees (recorded and designated by the Tree Register of the British Isles).Situated in the Yorkshire Dales, not far from the historic town of Bedale, Thorp Perrow is an exciting place to explore offering something for everyone, and is home to some of the largest and rarest trees and shrubs in England. The Arboretum also embraces the Milbank Pinetum planted by Lady Augusta Milbank in the mid-nineteenth century, and the medieval Spring Wood dating back to the 16th century.We talk to Neil Hind about Pinewoods of HarrogatePinewoods is about 96 acres of semi-natural woodland located approximately 1km south-west of Harrogate.The original Scots pines, from which the site takes its name, were planted in 1796. The pines are still in evidence today, although it's unlikely any of the originals still exist. The site offers informal recreational areas and sites of conservational interest. As such, the woodland is managed by ourselves and local volunteer groups to try to balance the recreation and conservation aspects of the site itself.We talk to Shipley College https://www.shipley.ac.uk/courses/categories/horticulture/Shipley College is a small, friendly place that really cares about every person that comes through the door and we pride ourselves on giving every student the individual support they deserve.Situated in the UNESCO World Heritage Site of Saltaire, it is a great place to study and easy to get to by bus, train and car. Whether you are a school leaver, mature student or employer, they confident to provide excellent opportunities to develop skills and qualifications. #gardening #trees #gardening-podcast #horticulture #nature #flowers #podcast #herbs #vegetables #festivals #college Support the show (https://trowelsandtribulations.buzzsprout.com/)

Sorry for the poor sound quality at the beginning . In this episode we walk around Thorp Perrow and see the amazing autumn colours and a walk around the famous Halloween Trail. Thorp Perrow is the most important Arboretum in the North of England and is unique to Britain, if not Europe, in that it was the creation of one man, Colonel Sir Leonard Ropner (1895-1977). His son, Sir John Ropner (1937-2016) and his wife, Niki, then went onto develop the Arboretum into the visitor attraction you see today. Sir Henry Ropner and his family are the current custodians.The Arboretum covers 100 acres and is currently home to 5 National Plant Collections and 51 Champion Trees (recorded and designated by the Tree Register of the British Isles).Situated in the Yorkshire Dales, not far from the historic town of Bedale, Thorp Perrow is an exciting place to explore offering something for everyone, and is home to some of the largest and rarest trees and shrubs in England. The Arboretum also embraces the Milbank Pinetum planted by Lady Augusta Milbank in the mid-nineteenth century, and the medieval Spring Wood dating back to the 16th century.The Arboretum is laid out in Sections, and identified as Section A to Section Z, plus Milbank Pinetum, and Springs Wood. Each Section inter-connects with its neighbour via paths, grass walks, glades, bays, or avenues. A walk around the Arboretum can be a journey of plant discovery that takes you around the continents of the world; with many of the tree and shrub genera and species planted having origins in China, Japan, North America, Chile, and Europe.Support the show (https://trowelsandtribulations.buzzsprout.com/)

Hello and welcome to Kitted Out Podcast, a podcast on football shirts. Each episode, I will take an in-depth look at a different shirt from throughout the years to discuss everything about it. The design, the materials, the story. For episode 5 I travelled up to North Yorkshire to talk with members of AFC Bedale to discuss their meaty kit. The team, sponsored by Heck Sausages, have a kit this year based on a hot dog, this shirt has a charitable side to it, making sure 25% of everyth shirt sale went to Prostate Cancer UK.  Myself, Bedale locals and Richard Johnson discuss the kits, the charitable causes as well as novelty kits throughout the years to see what is weird and wonderful about them.  If you enjoy the podcast then please rate and review the podcast, subscribe to A Team Of John O’Sheas. Feel free to follow me on Twitter, I can be found on @KittedOutPod, or email me on kittedoutpod@gmail.com (mailto:kittedoutpod@gmail.com) . While you’re on a following spree, don’t forget to to follow A Team Of John O’Sheas on @TOJOS_. Social Media Links @FootballAttic - Richard Johnson (Twitter) @AFCBedale - AFC Bedale (Twitter) @KittedOutPod - Kitted Out Podcast (Twitter) @TOJOS_ - A Team Of John O’Sheas (Twitter)

Matthew Sawyer is the MD of SEE Sustainability, a sustainability consultancy helping SMEs improve their triple bottom line. Nigel Parkin is the owner of Institution is a multi-award winning boutique cafe located in the Georgian Market town of Bedale. In this episode, Matthew shares his experience working with Nigel and they chat about their experience turning Institution into a more sustainable business. Highlights: Understanding of SDG and getting the team on board “Within a period of 6 weeks we were able to reduce our waste bill by 60%.” Using social media to shout about sustainability campaign SDG 12.3 Reducing Food Waste Reducing coffee waste, sourcing more local produce and reducing packaging Closing the information gap between knowledge Biggest challenge of reducing carbon footprint Useful link: Nigel Parkin https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigel-parkin-b139bb159/ Institution Cafe in Bedale http://cafe.thisisinstitution.co.uk/ Matthew Sawyer https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-matthew-sawyer-mb-bsc-gradiema-66325110b/ SEE Sustainability https://seesustainability.co.uk/ (https://seesustainability.co.uk/) Timestamp: [03:00] Understanding of SDGs [05:00] Improving waste management of the cafe [10:00] Environmental impact from the customer's perspective [15:00] Asking questions of suppliers [20:00] What has been the biggest struggle? [25:00] Once piece of advice to audience

Hello and welcome to Kitted Out Podcast, a podcast on football shirts. Each episode, Ollie Shepherd takes an in-depth look at a different shirt from throughout the years to discuss everything about it. The design, the materials, the story. For episode 5, he travelled up to North Yorkshire to talk with members of AFC Bedale to discuss their meaty kit. The team, sponsored by Heck Sausages, have a kit this year based on a hot dog. This shirt has a charitable side to it, with the club making sure 25% of every shirt sale went to Prostate Cancer UK. Myself, Bedale locals and Richard Johnson discuss the kits, the charitable causes as well as novelty kits throughout the years to see what is weird and wonderful about them. If you enjoy the podcast then please rate and review the podcast, subscribe to A Team Of John O’Sheas.  Feel free to follow Ollie on Twitter: he can be found on @KittedOutPod or emailed on kittedoutpod@gmail.com.  While you’re on a following spree, don’t forget to follow A Team Of John O’Sheas on @TOJOS_. **Social Media Links** @FootballAttic - Richard Johnson (Twitter) @AFCBedale - AFC Bedale (Twitter) @KittedOutPod - Kitted Out Podcast (Twitter) @TOJOS_ - A Team Of John O’Sheas (Twitter)

Welcome to the Inside Yorkshire Podcast, a podcast full of stories and tales from the people of Yorkshire. In today's episode Susan talks to Joe Willis, founder of Richmondshire Today, a news service provided online and in the monthly magazine. Joe realised that there was an increasing demand by consumers for online news and so began his internet news business with Richmondshiretoday.co.uk. His aim is to provide comprehensive coverage of community news, incidents and events, as well as producing interesting features and thought-provoking comment. Recent developments have seen him start up another news site covering Northallerton, Bedale,Thirsk and Stokesley. This is called Hambleton Today, featuring news items and events in the Hambleton district. About the Guest: Joe is a Richmondshire resident and former North-East Journalist of the Year. His work has been in regional press for more than 15 years. Initially he trained in Northampton ,writing for the Northamptonshire Evening Telegraph and then returned back to the area he grew up in,working on the Northern Echo and the Darlington and Stockton Times. Valuable Resources: www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk www.hambletontoday.co.uk About the Host: Susan has been living in Yorkshire for over 30 years. She is passionate about the county she has adopted as her home and she never ceases to be amazed at the wealth of talent ‘Inside Yorkshire’ and the tales that people have to tell. Contact Method for Inside Yorkshire  Susan Baty-Symes www.insideyorkshire.co.uk susan@insideyorkshire.co.uk  

Show notes (0:40) An introduction to Bedale’s and the wine team (3:10) Intro to pairing (6:45) First Pairing: Goat’s cheese and Riesling (12:12) Second Pairing: Blue cheese and Dessert wine Tasting notes Cheese #1 Fromage de Chèvre France - Raw goat's milk, Bloomy Rind Paired with - RIESLING Weingut Pfluger, Buntsandstein 2016, Pfalz, Germany Cheese #2 Colston Basset Stilton England - Pasteurised cow's milk, Blue Paired with - VIN SANTO Bonacchi, Vin Santo del Chianti 2006, Tuscany, Italy Contact details www.bedaleswines.com Events include: Wine & Cheese Pairing Workshop, The Pub Quiz for Wino's and Signature Wine Workshops Intro and outro music The New Investors http://newinvestors.dk/ Contact: glenn@velournet.dk Visit details Location: Bedales at Spitalfields Market Host: Dan Belmont, Wine & Cheese Specialist / Event Manager Date visited: 31 January, 2018

In part 2 of this Q&A, Chris and Jason discuss the market and demand for short term accommodation, hotel futures reports, pricing, chargebacks, handling and preventing bad reviews, meet and greets, serviced and cleaning fees, and scaleability. Tune in next week for the final part. Show Notes: The Serviced Accommodation Podcast is a show brought to you by Chris Poulter and Ritchie Mazivanhanga aimed at new and experienced property investors alike. With each show we help you Start, Systemise and Scale your Serviced Accommodation Business. If you would like to ask us a question or discuss anything in this episode, please join our Facebook group and ask away. To listen to more episodes or get more information go to www.thesapodcast.com.   Transcription: Hi I’m Chris   Hi I’m Ritchie   And welcome to the serviced accommodation podcast.   —   Welcome to part two of my Q and A with Jason Living. Hope you enjoy it. My only experience of serviced accommodation is a holiday let which when we took it on  serviced accommodation didn’t exist. It was a holiday let and it was abroad anyway so kind of irrelevant but in terms of managing something we understand that but we understand it from a holiday point of view so we’re looking at a load of property which we’ve got in different places, flats, houses mainly houses and we’re thinking so what’s the market for this stuff? Because we’re not in York so it’s not exactly the obvious person coming to York to indulge in some history,  this will be somewhere a bit rougher or whatever.   Give us a for instance location just out of interest.   A flat in Halifax, on the outskirts of Halifax. I mean I think the interesting thing is that you know because there are people who say oh it doesn’t work in some areas. I think in most areas there is a demand for short term accommodation and contractors is the obvious one. I didn’t want to pin it down to one.   To me I think your location very much drives your market and therefore you know you take any location and I think that that will then drive who the guest is. And you know because let’s face it you know we have hotels throughout the country and as I said we’re fishing in the same pond. So if there are hotels in that area there is clearly demand for short stay accommodation and if there’s demand for short stay accommodation there’s this demand for service type accommodation whether you call it holiday let because pretty much there is no other.   But you can’t follow the hotel world or the B&B world. Yeah and you know you’ve obviously got you’ve got your city centre market which is sort of higher end leisure, higher end corporate, you then get out into the more urban areas you’ve probably got more contractors and then you could go down to rural areas and provide they are nice rural areas you’d start to cross over into the holiday market and I live bottom end of Bedale and we have a cottage not far away which was a former house of ours and we’ve done that as holiday accommodation for the last 18 months and interestingly you know obviously it’s predominantly leisure but we still do get people working in the area whether for a week. We’ve got some people at the moment who are putting up a steel frame barn on a farm down the road you know. So even though if you like, it’s very obvious a holiday cottage, we actually get  contractors staying there and we’re not far from Catterick Garrison we had some guys doing an IT project up there for a while. So it’s it’s interesting. I mean I’m sure you have some great ways that you look at analysing demand and that sort of stuff?   No magic tricks or anything like that. It’s really about understanding the area. It sounds funny but actually a Wikipedia page is a really good place to start because that will give you an overall summary of the area, what kind of demographics is it, what kind of economics is it, a base for the area and then from there you can start to kind of explore and find out a little bit more. Every area is going to have different key drivers in the markets. I said there’s no magic tricks. Actually there are. So there’s something called a hotel futures report. So this is where basically the council’s will pay these consultants like £40-50k to go and do an absolute comprehensive study on the local market you know supply, demand, what the different segments of the market are, where the potential for growth is, what needs to change in the area and quite often they will actually show these reports publicly then because they’ve paid so much money for it so they might as well. Now that for me is a fantastic way to get real high quality research about an area, get an insight into the competition potentially. They even report you know average occupancy and pricing, seasonality, all the different areas you want to look at and even if they don’t have these hotel future reports for your particular area I think it’s a fantastic thing to go and read one and look at what the experts look at when they’re doing an analysis in an area because you inevitably pick up some tips, advice, oh I haven’t really thought about this I haven’t really thought about that. Now the one thing I find is that you might look at a city and go does it work here? Yes it works but that’s not really the picture you need to understand what customer segments are predominant in that particular area and therefore for what kind of product, which is what we’re doing with serviced accommodation is actually going to fit their needs better than the existing market. This is why it’s not just you get a property, you stick it on Airbnb and you’re done. You need to be a lot more tactical than that. You need to do the typical entrepreneurial thing which is find a problem and monetize the solution. So you need to kind of understand you know take the Southampton market because it’s obviously the one that I know best. You don’t just get a random studio or a one bed in Southampton because quite frankly unless it’s on the high street or within a couple of hundred yards you’re probably not going to make any money on it. But if you start to understand the contractor market then you realise that actually they’re not very location sensitive. So really anywhere within that city will work if you’ve got the right quality accommodation at the right price. You start to understand what they’ll pay extra for. So typically three or four bed properties perform really really well, two beds work as well that’s the bulk of our stock but actually people are willing to pay extra to have a little bit separation, a little bit more privacy, potentially a few more people in the property. You start to understand what their requirements are. So for instance when we started off we’d have one TV in the living room and we got quite a lot of feedback that actually the properties where we had one TV in each individual room as well was very popular because it gave them a bit more space. If one person wants to watch film and one person wants to watch football then that could go onl. So we started fitting out all the properties with TVs in all of the rooms. So again it’s look at the area, understand the customer segments but then produce a product which is going to fit their requirements and the closer that is in terms of area, location, property type, finish level, pricing that it is to what they need then the better that property is going to perform. I think the contractor market is a very interesting one because as Chris said they’re not very location sensitive. I mean we’ve had quite a lot of contractors over the last year who are working on sites that might be up to half an hour plus away from the accommodation and where we’ve won some of that business is because we’ve got a number of apartments in one location. So when they said we’ve got eight people and another five and we could accommodate all of that. One of the things we had to change was we had a number of two bed apartments that were two doubles and they just came to us and said can you provide accommodation? So you know rather than saying well we can only provide it in doubles, they basically said our guys are quite happy to share a room but obviously separate beds so we had to change all the beds and as I said you know they’re very price driven so you’re perhaps only charging you know in those instances you know £17-18 pounds per person per night which you know sounds quite low but then when you build that up and you say okay so in Sunderland that’s a two bed flat and it’s got four people in it, £68 per night, that’s £2000 a month on a property we would normally get £500 a month for. And okay you;ve got a lot of extra cost to come out of that because these are longer term bookings but you’ve got 100 percent occupancy and actually you know it’s good for them because they’re getting accommodation for say £17/18 a night, we have been down as low as £15 you know which suits them because they are very price driven and these are typically you know sort of Polish German European contractors you know. So obviously that’s got to come out as a cost from whatever project they’re working on. You know the example I always quote is a guy called Duncan Bolton who’s based on Teeside who’s been doing serviced accommodation for probably for about five or six years now and he has you know three bed semi detached ex council houses that he lets to contractors and he just keeps them on booking.com and AirBnB and he said it can be up and down you can have nothing, it’s empty but you’re making good enough money for two or three months that you’ve got three or four people living there again again it’s making that product appropriate to the market whereby you know it hasn’t got all the you know shiny furniture you know it’s just you know they’re just looking for somewhere clean and comfortable to stay for the period when they’re working whether that’s Monday to Friday or longer. It’s difficult because people say I’ll do test ads on Airbnb which Airbnb don’t like and they have closed accounts down and then that’s caused problems. But the other thing is I mean I’ve found in Sunderland that we get very very little from Airbnb anyway. So if I’d used Airbnb as the test model because you can’t test on booking.com because it’s got to be a real property and a live booking you know I’d never have done it so it’s actually in my view quite difficult to test market. Sometimes we use calendars on Airbnb if they are linked to calendars and they’re all synced if you look at the calendars and what the prices are and if the prices are too high, the calendars are empty. It does give you an overview but like you say dummy   Yeah I think they are of limited value.   So in your serviced accommodation units, you said you were kitting them out with TVs and all  have you had many times when people have gone in and nicked everything?   That’s what insurance is for.   Would you just use insurance for that then? We do checks now before we release keys, to check passports matching credit cards because that particular one was a stolen credit card, stayed for 6 days and then got a van and took all the furniture and everything out of the flat. So it was £1800 worth of gear gone and when we tried charging the card it was declined and the card company actually charged us back for the stay. If we’d had the ID that matches the passport to match the credit card they wouldn’t have got in. We’ve stopped maybe 3 or 4 since that. If the credit card doesn’t match the ID, you challenge them and they just clamp up   I mean the reality is those instances even without being very rigid about checks those instances are very very few and far between. I think you know you hear about them and I knew that happened to you. I remember again talking to Duncan Belton about this two or three years ago and someone had said to me you know you do an inventory and he said you know at that point he said in three years I’ve had one good microwave go missing he said.   But it’s one of those things I think you know you think people immediately think of you giving access to somebody that’s who they say they are.   I was just interested to see how often it happens.   Oh it’s very market dependent I think.I mean if I was in London then absolutely I’d be very hot on fraud prevention. We have had one in London with a television or two televisions. And again you know stolen credit card that whole thing was fraudulent.   I’ve had utensils taken recently, just all utensils. You know obviously if it’s a major thing then that’s a bit of a hiccup. But I think part of it is regarding some of those costs is just the cost of doing business. You will get you know okay there’s lots of ways you can mitigate it and you can cut it right down but you probably will still get fraudulent credit cards or you will get chargebacks that you try and defend it and you won’t defend and you will get people who do extra damage that you try and charge for and you can’t and to me it is just a cost of doing business. You know it’s like if you run a hire car fleet I’m sure there’s there’s a certain element of damage that is just you know it’s just very heavy wear and tear you know that you can’t charge for. And so whilst you know you can’t take it completely. I’m not saying you take a laissez faire attitude to it but it is just it’s a cost of doing business. You can spend your life chasing people for £100 here one you know. And you know most of the time is wasted energy and I’m sure if you speak to people in hotels you know they must get the same of you know people leaving stuff or damaging stuff or whatever and know I’m sure again you know they make an attempt to charge them but if you can’t you’ve just got to move on. The thing I think about all of that when you compare it to renting out property is it’s a very transient issue. You know we’ve had instances in Sunderland where the cleaners phone up and say oh it was a complete mess. What that actually means is two hours extra cleaning at £12 an hour whereas if you’ve got an idiot in an HMO that’s six to eight months of grief. Which would you rather have you know take a couple of hours extra cleaning on the chin and you know maybe they’ve broken a lamp you know maybe it’s a couple hundred quid at worst. I know what I’d rather have you know and I have experienced both and still do. You know I evicted a tenant three weeks ago you know we started that eviction last November and he’s not paid any rent since it’s like five grand of lost rent. Well where we have a guarantor we will pursue them you know it’s the thing I like about serviced accommodation is that by the time there’s a problem they’ve gone.   It’s very immediate isn’t it?   Yeah it is and I don’t think we’ve ever had a property that we couldn’t turn around within 24 hours in terms of you know because usually it’s just a party there’s you know it’s just a mess. It’s not often worse than that.   I think if we think about chargebacks which is very closely related because there’s two real risks to credit cards is that it was fraudulent you know or they just could do a chargeback anyway. And again every area is going to be different as to how you want to look at it. If I live in London I’ll be taking ID and matching card from every single person in Southampton we don’t have a massive issue with it. But I did the analysis for last year 2016 being about two to two thousand pounds worth of chargebacks out of about £500k. So if you’re talking like 0.4% of your turnover on chargebacks well how much would it have cost us to implement the procedures so that we would have won every single one of those chargebacks that’s probably about £4000 or £5000.  So to be doing that every single booking it wasn’t worth it for us but to some extent you’ve got to take a pragmatic view of it. Now I’ve said exactly the same to people, talking about you know meet and greet obviously can be part of that process but clearly there’s a cost to meet and greet everybody and you’ve got to as you say balance that. We have sort of you know probably similar figures across Sunderland. You know I was a while ago I was looking at it and said look we’ve probably had you know 800 bookings even if it costs you £10 each to administer sort of meet and greet and security checks and all the rest of it. And again simply we’d probably had £1500-2000 of losses whether that chargebacks or damage that we couldn’t charge for. So we’ve you know saved the £8000 we could have spent and it’s cost us £2000 and again it’s not in some ways how you want to operate a business of sort of taking that attitude of well it just happens. But you know you’ve got to look at that sort of a bigger picture I think.   How do you manage reviews? I mean obviously you want good reviews but you’re not necessarily going to get them and sometimes you get mischievous people. Is there a way of managing that and dealing with it? I mean I think the most important thing and it sounds so stupidly obvious but I guarantee 9 out of 10 people aren’t doing is asking every single guest for a review. Because what happens with reviews you think about it. When was the last time you left a good review for someone you know it doesn’t happen that often but if you’ve had a bad experience you go straight on and complaining about it. This is human nature. If we have a bad experience we’re much more likely to leave a review. So the simple process of asking every single guest for a review will mean that those get balanced out and you know even if people leave average reviews and some post amazing reviews, it balances out an awful lot and can have a big impact on what your review rating is. There’s lots of other stuff you can do around that but for me that’s the number one making sure you are asking every single guest for review and personally we combine that with Net Promoter Score and it’s a fantastic combination. Absolutely I’ll take you through exactly how it works it’s actually very very simple. So after every guest has left what it would do is 24 hours later we give them a call and the call simply goes on a scale of 0 to 10 how likely would you be to recommend a property to a friend or family. That’s what Net Promoter Score is, it’s literally asking that question they’re going to give you a number and based on that number you can do something different so if it’s nine or 10 you go well that’s fantastic. Glad you enjoyed your stay. Would you mind leaving us a review saying you enjoyed it so much and you’ve got the commitment of yes from most of them still won’t go and do it but you’ve actually increased the number who were going to go and write a review by maybe two or three hundred percent.   I had a property a couple of weeks ago and he was, this guy was doing serviced accommodation and in a very short period of time he had a very small place but he won the best reviews on I can’t remember which site it was but because exactly because he did that, obviously if you get someone who’s going to give you a 2 you’re not going to ask them for a review.   Is that automated?   No no we do that telephone call because of course because the thing is when someone’s made a commitment to another person a lot more drawn to actually follow through with that action actually you know basic basic psychology on that. So yeah yes it’s something you know we have the technology and we tested doing it by text message but what we found is that you know although you can make it nice and technical and automate stuff and that kind of thing it just doesn’t have the same impact. So doing the telephones, okay it’s intensive but actually the impact on your business by the higher review score that you get and therefore the higher occupancy and rates which you can charge more than pay for itself. It also gives you a fantastic way of kind of mitigating some of the bad reviews.   And that’s half of it, catching the bad stuff before it gets out.   Exactly and what’s the reason that you leave a bad review generally is because you’re frustrated that nobody’s listening to you so you kind of want to tell the world if you’re giving people an opportunity to cull events and explain the issue you’re going to listen you can apologize and you’re going to tell them how you’re going to rectify it. Generally people won’t leave you a bad review. I mean the ultimate I think you know one of the things that I think influences reviews quite significantly is that element of human contact and I guess in an ideal world you’d probably ring people before their arrival or at the point of arrival. In terms of nipping anything in the bud the probably the best point to contact them is the morning after they’ve arrived so if somebody’s got in at 6pm then to ring them at 9am/10am the next morning to say I wanted to check everything was okay you know and you know then they’re going to say actually something wasn’t clean or whatever and you’ve got the opportunity to rectify it. Obviously that’s quite labor intensive and you know that because I was saying to Lisa earlier obviously one of the frustrating thing is you have reviews coming through and it’s not uncommon if you haven’t had the contact to get certain for instance on booking.com to take the different elements to get a low staff review not because your staff have done anything wrong but just because there wasn’t any interaction, you know the only interaction they’ve had is via email so they won’t give you a 10 out of 10 for staff just because they’ve got nothing so rather than I think they probably can’t do not applicable. If they could do that but rather than do that they mark you down would choose which is frustrating. The other thing about review management is it’s very very important as to A) to reply to particularly bad reviews and you get that opportunity on most of the platforms and not only to reply but to reply in the knowledge that actually the reply, of the people you’re speaking to are not actually the person who stayed but the person who’s then reading that review and how you responded to it who might be wanting to book so to see if there is a problem it’s always you know thank you very much for drawing that to attention. You know we’ve ensured, we’ve now put a process in place so that it will never happen again. It shouldn’t take a slightly extreme but obviously it is. You know we’ve made the cleaning team aware of these issues and you know we’re now ensuring that that doesn’t happen or sort of paraphrasing you know so that when somebody somebody sees that bad review they can they can see that you’ve responded in an appropriate way and actually the problem that occurred isn’t going to occur if they come and book in your in your property. But the bottom line is you will get them I mean you just you get some people for whom there is there is just nothing you can do to appease them.   Some people don’t want to be appeased, they just want some money back. Yeah exactly. Sometimes it’s that and sometimes it’s like they’re just from a different planet.   So for example these days if you’ve got a mobile number for someone that’s stayed with you, you ring the number, I mean I now only answer calls that I know so what do you do. My question is what about international numbers, is it the same really? Do you send them a text for example to say I’m just going to ring you then ring them or? Sometimes international numbers are more likely to be answered because yeah they go OK it’s a UK mobile and I have lots of people like that, it’s not going to be a spam number. So yeah generally it would be a phone call, if they don’t answer the text goes out, that is just you know if it’s a text message it’s not the end of the world but you know you maybe do a follow up the next day to see if you can make contact with them. I think the one crucial element around the reviews and it’s very easy to miss is that this is really about feedback and the feedback is what’s going to drive your business forward, make it more profitable make it sustainable. The thing is, it’s feedback you’re probably not hearing yet because what do reviews tend to be they tend to be really good experiences where people have loved the property yet or they tend to be really bad experiences where something has gone wrong and that’s not the key feedback. They key feedback for your business is in the middle. It’s the things where ah well the microwave was a bit old or you know the boiler makes a noise in the middle of the night or a smoke alarm beeps every 30 seconds. Yes these are things all real stories. These are things which they’re not important enough for them to phone you up and tell them they’re not important enough to leave a bad review but they’re fundamentally affected the guest experience.   Yeah. Thank you very much, what you just said , I’m going put this in place because it is so fundamental. It’s like a lightbulb moment for me.   Those things will come up when people say seven or eight. Yes this is what’s so powerful. The 9s or 10s, they had a great stay. The 6 or below there’s something serious need to sort out, the 7s or 8s it was generally great but there’s some stuff which you can pick up on. Now the reason that NPS is so powerful is because people won’t give you this kind of feedback. You know it bothered them but it’s not important enough that they feel they have to feed it back to you. What you’re doing with NPS is essentially you’re giving them permission and you’re making it very hard for them not to do it because they say oh probably seven and you say well what one thing could we have changed which would have improved your recommendation to a friend. That’s when they are going to give you the key insight into something they wouldn’t think to tell you. Well actually the neighbours were quite noisy, actually it was a bit of a faff getting into the property you know the little issues which affect the customer experience. As we say, that intervention in a short period after they’ve checked in nips those things in the bud again doesn’t it. Because as you say it’s just not quite right. You know maybe it’s just not quite as clean as they would have expected or you know there’s some some minor issue. You know the chances are they’re not ring you up and tell you, they might still leave a review but if you’ve rung them first.   One of the problems with that is after that they just think oh I’ll just ring him and ask. You always get customers like that but any business you’re going to have problematic customers. But I think this is one of the real key things around serviced accommodation that maybe people don’t grasp is that review scores, yeah they’re important. And what are they reflection of? They’re a reflection of the guest experience, they’re not a reflection of the property. So you can have really cheap you know not particularly well decorated properties which get 10 out of 10 all the time. Well you can have a lovely high end properties which are beautifully decorated which get quite low scores. So you know it’s not fundamentally about the quality of the property it’s about the guest experience and you know that is so many different things that it’s the initial contact they get from you that are you know the check in procedure. It’s how they feel when they walk into the apartment. The little touches the things that put them off. Yeah it’s a lot more than just the quality of the property so whatever property you have even if it’s in not so  nice an area you can always have a great guest experience around it. It’s about small details and you have to pay real good attention to those small details if you want to work. And the great news is that doesn’t have to cost money. You don’t have to go and get you know a £1000 sofa bed or £8000 70” TV to get a great guest experience. It’s about the small things.   It’s like in higher end hotels, if you’ve got a problem you phone up and someone comes to fix it and then they call you after to say is everything ok? There’s always follow ups and they’ve been doing it for years.   And I think what that highlights the whole issue and that is what people need to understand this is a hospitality business it’s not a property rental business you know and I think you know there are examples of people who get on Facebook and rant about this and the other with their guests and all the rest of it. And whilst I’m sure they don’t necessarily rant entirely the same way at their guests, inevitably it must come through in the way they deal with people you know and the bottom line you know it is you know unfortunately sometimes it is one of those industries where up to a certain point the customer probably is always right. You know you’ve got to be seen to be, it is hospitality you know we’ve all stayed in hotels. But you know we’ve all stayed in hotels and had that really great experience and equally had that not so great experience of you know with the receptionist just having an off day and it does it colors you know and as you said it’s got nothing to do with the property but it just colors it so however you’re interacting with guests you know whether that is on the phone or in person or even via emails and those sort of things you know if you’re not careful it can come across as these are the rules you can’t do this you must do that. And that will color people’s whole experience. It’s getting back to that. You know it’s a hospitality business.   Based on that then would you say meet and greets are better or not? I think overall I think my view has changed and I think initially when I came into this I wanted to do and to be the not meet and greet has worked for us I have to say in Sunderland in the main. I think where we’ve had issues with it is a block we’re managing in Birmingham which is the branding block of 16 and they’ve had real sort of party problems on weekends. And so now they’ve got someone on site Friday and Saturday evenings sort of doing the meet and greet. And to me the issue then is okay that’s fine how do we cover the cost? And I think Chris I’d be interested in your take on this and increasingly I think we’re seeing people adopting the pricing model of charging a service charge on top so you have to have your nightly rate and then per booking there’s service charge. When I was working with a guy in Liverpool and he’s always done this, he charges you know £45 and that covers his meet and greet and his cleaning you know and his nightly rate is then his nightly rate. And I think people have become used to Airbnb you know because Airbnb was very much set up as a room in a house model. You know you pay for that and then there’s charge for cleaning on top and you know booking.com does facilitate that. You know I started from the point of view of well if you stay in a hotel you don’t get that but also if you had booked through booking.com, by the time you’ve got through and decided that’s the property you want to stay and that’s the reason not separate thing is probably going to say well I’ve decided that’s where I want to stay anyway. Have you charged any additional charges of that nature or do you just have an inclusive nightly rate?   We don’t typically, it’s very interesting because each market seems to operate virtually independently on that and if you’re the only person in your market charging a service fee or a cleaning fee you might find it hard to be competitive. Whereas if for instance you’re in London everyone does it and you would be leaving money on the table if you didn’t because it’s not a fair comparison. You’re looking at the nightly rates but with your property there’s no extra charges, on the other one there might be a £70/£80 cleaning fee. To kind of look at meet and greets are they better? Well not not to embarrass you I stayed at one of your clients properties in Westminster probably about two months ago now and I found it because I searched all of London for the highest rated properties and actually came up top. You know it had 10 out of 10 after 28 reviews, when I checked into the property of this Colombian guy very proud of the property who showed me all the features in here, showed me the most wonderful Colombian coffee which was the best in the world. And all these kind of things you know which was a nice touch but in all honesty I like a kind of two or three minute check in you know it was maybe 10-15 minutes, don’t get me wrong it was a really nice property, fantastic location it had views over Westminster Abbey you could see Big Ben in the background, so very nice. Was it a 10 out of 10 property?. Not really. It just had a few little things you know the main bed in there for instance was fold out bed you know which meant it wasn’t massively comfortable it looked a little bit strange there was no bedside tables or bedside lamps which didn’t make it practical. The TV was mounted above the sofa so I presume I’d get a bit of neckache! It was a nice property but like independently there’s no way I would have left a 10 out of 10 rating but actually you met up with this guy, he’s so proud about what he’s doing. You’re quite aware of the fact actually he’s got a very high rating. There’s no way you could leave anything but a 10. You’d feel like I’ve mortally wounded him! So yes, meet and greets can have a very positive impact on the review rating. The bottom line is it’s not scalable unless you’re in a line of business where you’re able to charge a real premium on your nightly rate. It’s not a scalable model you can’t get 20 or 40 or 50 units. I mean at the moment I think I’m not absolutely sure but I think those guys are just running two and they’re in the same block. All right. Well you know they were very keen to do that because I think they are very hospitality minded and I think his wife who I haven’t met, I think she’s very much the same but you know she wants to be there and schmooze people and all the rest of it.   When I stay somewhere I wouldn’t want someone to be messing about talking to me and that, I just want to get in, do my thing, do you know what I mean? I suppose in a way it could be subjective for each guest.   I’m exactly the same. So in all honesty I would have preferred a remote check in for that property but that’s not the same as what review would I have left it? Because even though my personal preference if you ask me would be to be remote check in I would still have given a higher review rating having had a think which I just think is really fascinating. It’s a kind of psychological impact it has. That’s it for part two. Make sure you tune into the next episode for the final part.   –   Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast to hear the latest on serviced accommodation. If you’re looking to start systemise or scale your serviced accommodation business visit www.thesapodcast.com to see how we could help you further.    

The newly formed Bedale & RAF Leeming branch of the RAF Association is looking for new members. The RAF Association offers friendship, help and support to the ‘RAF family’. This includes current and former serving RAF personnel, their spouses, widows, widowers and other dependants. From something as simple as a visit to chat, to financial support in a time of need, the Association is there to help. The majority of this support is delivered by local Branch members, on a voluntary basis. By becoming a member you can enjoy getting together with like-minded people and take part in a range of social events, from raising funds in support of the annual Wings Week Appeal to helping a veteran in his or her garden. Branch Chairman, Wing Commander Chris Thorpe, said: “I’d urge anyone who is serving or who has served in the RAF, or indeed anyone who is interested in supporting the Association, to come along to one of our meetings to see what we’re all about. It’s free to visit us and we’re always keen to meet new people.” There are many former RAF personnel and their families living in this part of North Yorkshire. This new branch, which includes many serving personnel, offers the opportunity for current and former RAF members to work together for the benefit of others.

Hot on the heels of Yorkshire Tea is Karl and Cathy Mason's Yorkshire Gin, A great Taste winner, made in Bedale. An just for good measure, there is a version with Yorkshire Tea added!

Cathy talks about the business, the product and BBC Good Food Show Spring