Podcasts about visitor experience

The crew visits Maker's Mark and sat down with Thomas Bolton, Senior Manager of Visitor Experience and Education. We discussed his journey to the bourbon world, Maker's Star Hill Farm and how it's built around sustainability and much more. We also tasted through Cellars Age, The Keepers and Heart releases and the most recent and brand new Star Hill Farm.  

In this Episode of The Bourbon Life Podcast, the Bourbon Life Crew (minus Chad) spend some time hanging out together in The Bourbon Life enjoying some great conversation and some great pours. The Crew kicks things off with Bourbon Life Jeopardy, inspired by Philip's idea to turn a love of trivia into a spirited game. From there, they dive into three big topics: the grand opening of the new RD1 Distillery and Visitor Experience in Lexington and what it means for the local bourbon scene, a preview of National Bourbon Week with a spotlight on the upcoming Beam Backyard Luau that's set to be one of the summer's biggest bourbon celebrations, and a heartfelt discussion about the recent devastating tornadoes that tore through Kentucky. They talk about how people can support those affected and share resources for getting involved with relief efforts. They also enjoyed three incredible pours that each sparked their own unique conversation: a vintage 1975 Seagram's Benchmark Bourbon, offering a nostalgic glimpse into bourbon's past; the brand new Star Hill Farm Wheat Whisky from Maker's Mark that showcased soft, sweet grain character; and a powerhouse Knob Creek Cask Strength Bluegrass Bartenders Fund Single Barrel Pick, selected to support a great cause while delivering bold, classic flavor. Each pour brought something different to the table and highlighted the diversity and richness of the whiskey world. This Episode of The Bourbon Life Podcast is sponsored by Three Chord Bourbon and The Kitchen Table at James B. Beam Distilling Co. Check out all of our amazing sponsors online at:  www.threechordbourbon.com www.visitthekitchentable.com

Trails report with Wasatch Trails Foundation, Summit County Councilmember Chris Robinson recaps Wednesday's council meeting, Park City Board of Education President Meredith Reed and Superintendent of Schools Lyndsay Huntsman share updates and Director of Exhibits and Visitor Experience at the Swaner Preserve and EcoCenter Hunter Klingensmith shares details on upcoming events and exhibits.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. Show references:  Anna Preedy, Director M+H Showhttps://show.museumsandheritage.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/annapreedy/Jon Horsfield, CRO at Centegra, a Cinchio Solutions Partnerhttps://cinchio.com/uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-horsfield-957b3a4/Dom Jones, CEO, Mary Rose Trust https://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jonesPaul Woolf, Trustee at Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-woolf/Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director, Stephen Spencer + Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/stephen-spencerSarah Bagg, Founder, ReWork Consultinghttps://reworkconsulting.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/sarah-baggJeremy Mitchell, Chair of Petersfield Museum and Art Galleryhttps://www.petersfieldmuseum.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-mitchell-frsa-4529b95/Rachel Kuhn, Associate Director, BOP Consultinghttps://www.bop.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuhnrachel/  Transcriptions:Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. You join me today, out and about yet again. This time I am in London at Olympia for the Museums and Heritage Show. Hotly anticipated event in everybody's diary. We all look forward to it. Two days of talks and exhibitions and workshops. Just a whole lot of networking and fun. And of course, we've got the M and H awards as well. So in this episode, I am going to be joined by a number of different people from across the sector, museum and cultural institution professionals, we've got some consultants, we've got some suppliers to the industry, all pretty much giving us their take on what they've seen, what they're doing and what their thoughts are for the year ahead. So, without further ado, let's meet our first guest. Andy Povey: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thank you for giving us some of your time on what must be a massively busy day for you. I wonder if you could just tell the audience who you are, what you do, a little bit about what museums and heritage is, because not everyone listening to the podcast comes from the museum sector. Anna Preedy: Andy, thanks. This is a great opportunity and always really lovely to see your happy smiley face at the Museums and Heritage Show. So M and H, as we're often referred to as, stands for Museums and Heritage and we're a small business that organises the principal trade exhibition for the Museums and Heritage sector that could be broadened, I suppose, into the cultural sector. We also have the awards ceremony for the sector and an online magazine. So we are Museums and Heritage, but we're often referred to as M and H and we've been around for a very long time, 30 plus years. Andy Povey: Oh, my word. Anna Preedy: I know. Andy Povey: And what's your role within the organisation? Your badge says Event Director today. That's one of many hats. Anna Preedy: I'm sure it is one of many hats because we're a very small team. So I own and manage the events, if you like. M and H is my baby. I've been doing it for a very long time. I feel like I'm truly immersed in the world of museums and heritage and would like to think that as a result of that, I kind of understand and appreciate some of the issues and then bring everyone together to actually get in the same room and to talk them through at the show. So, yeah, that's what we're about, really. Andy Povey: In a shorthand and obviously the show. We're in the middle of West London. It's a beautifully sunny day here at Olympia. The show is the culmination, I suppose of 12 months of work. So what actually goes in? What does a normal day look like for you on any month other than May? Anna Preedy: Yeah, it was funny actually. Sometimes people, I think, well, what do you do for the rest of the year? You just turn up to London for a couple of days, just turn up delivering an event like this. And also our award scheme is literally three, six, five days of the year job. So the moment we leave Olympia in London, we're already planning the next event. So it really is all encompassing. So I get involved in a lot. As I say, we're a small team, so I'm the person that tends to do most of the programming for the show. So we have 70 free talks. Everything at the show is free to attend, is free to visit. So we have an extensive programme of talks. We have about 170 exhibitors. Anna Preedy: So I'm, although I have a sales team for that, I'm managing them and looking after that and working with some of those exhibitors and then I'm very much involved in our awards. So the Museums and Heritage Awards look to celebrate and reward the very best in our sector and shine the spotlight on that not just in the UK but around the world. So we have a judging panel and I coordinate that. So pretty much every decision, I mean you look at the colour of the carpet, that which incidentally is bright pink, you look at the colour of the carpet here, who made the decision what colour it would be in the aisles this year it was me. So I, you know, I do get heavily involved in all the nitty gritty as well as the biggest strategic decisions. Andy Povey: Fantastic. Here on the show floor today it is really busy, there are an awful lot of people there. So this is all testament to everything that you've done to make this the success that it is. I'm sure that every exhibitor is going to walk away with maybe not a full order book, but definitely a fistful of business cards. Anna Preedy: I think that's it, what we really want. And we sort of build this event as the big catch up and we do that for a reason. And that is really to kind of give two days of the year people put those in their diary. It's a space where people can come together. So you know, there'll be people here standing on stands who obviously and understandably want to promote their product or service and are looking to generate new business. And then our visitors are looking for those services and enjoying the talks and everyone comes together and it's an opportunity to learn and network and connect and to do business in the broadest possible sense. Really. Andy Povey: No, I think that the line, the big catch up really sums the show up for me. I've been. I think I worked out on the way in this morning. It's the 15th time I've been to the show. It's one of my favourite in the year because it is a fantastic mix of the curatorial, the commercial, everything that goes into running a successful museum or heritage venue. Anna Preedy: I mean, it's funny when people ask me to summarise. I mean, for a start, it's quite difficult. You know, really, it should be museums, galleries, heritage, visitor, attractions, culture. You know, it is a very diverse sector and if you think about everything that goes into making a museum or a gallery or a historic house function, operate, engage, it's as diverse as the organisational types are themselves and we try and bring all of that together. So, you know, whether you are the person that's responsible for generating income in your organisation, and perhaps that might be retail or it might be catering, it could be any. Any stream of income generation, there's going to be content for you here just as much as there's going to be content for you here. Anna Preedy: If you are head of exhibitions or if you are perhaps wearing the marketing hat and actually your job is, you know, communications or audience development, we try and represent the sector in its broadest scope. So there is something for everyone, quite. Andy Povey: Literally, and that's apparent just from looking on the show floor. So with all of your experience in the museum sector, and I suppose you get to see. See quite an awful lot of new stuff, new products. So what are you anticipating happening in the next sort of 6 to 12 months in our sector? Anna Preedy: I mean, that's a big question because, you know, going back to what were just saying, and the kind of different verticals, if you like, that sit within the sector, but I think the obvious one probably has to be AI, and the influence of that. I'm not saying that's going to change everything overnight. It won't, but it's. You can see the ripples already and you can see that reflected out here on the exhibition floor with exhibitors, and you can also see it in our programme. So this sort of AI is only, you know, one aspect of, you know, the bigger, wider digital story. But I just think it's probably more about the sector evolving than it is about, you know, grand sweeping changes in any one direction. Anna Preedy: But the other thing to say, of course, is that as funding gets more the sort of the economic landscape, you know, is tough. Undeniably so. So generating revenue and finding new ways to do that and prioritising it within your organisation, but not at the expense of everything else that's done. And it should never be at the expense of everything else that's done. And it's perfectly possible to do both. Nobody's suggesting that it's easy, nothing's easy but, you know, it's possible. Anna Preedy: And I think the show here, and also what we do online in terms of, you know, news and features, all of that, and what other organisations are doing in this sector, of course, and the partners we work with, but I think just helping kind of bridge that gap really, and to provide solutions and to provide inspiration and actually, you know, there's no need to reinvent the wheel constantly. Actually, I think it was somebody that worked in the sector. I'm reluctant to names, but there was somebody I remember once saying, well, know, stealing with glee is kind of, you know, and I think actually, you know, if you see somebody else is doing something great and actually we see that in our wards, you know, that's the whole point. Let's shine a spotlight on good work. Well, that might inspire someone else. Anna Preedy: It's not about ripping something off and it's not absolute replication. But actually, you know, scalable changes in your organisation that may have been inspired by somebody else's is only a good thing as well. Andy Povey: It's all that evolutionary process, isn't it? So, great experience. Thank you on behalf of everybody that's come to the show today. Anna Preedy: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it, I really genuinely do and there is nothing like the buzz of a busy event. Jon Horsfield: Yeah, My name is Jon Horsfield, I'm the Chief Revenue Officer of Cincio Solutions. Andy Povey: And what does Cincio do? Jon Horsfield: We provide F and B technology, so kiosks, point of sale payments, kitchen systems, inventory, self checkout to the museums, heritage zoos, aquariums and hospitality industries. Andy Povey: Oh, fantastic. So I understand this is your first time here at the Museums and Heritage Show. Jon Horsfield: It is our first time. It's been an interesting learning curve. Andy Povey: Tell me more. Jon Horsfield: Well, our background is very much within the hospitality. We've been operating for about 20 to 23 years within the sort of high street hospitality side of things. Some of our London based listeners may have heard of Leon Restaurants or Coco Di Mama, we've been working with them for over 20 years. But we're looking at ways of bringing that high street technology into other industries and other Verticals and the museums and heritage is a vertical that we've identified as somewhere that could probably do with coming into the 21st century with some of the technology solutions available. Andy Povey: I hear what you're saying. So what do you think of the show? What are your first impressions? Give me your top three tips. Learning points. Jon Horsfield: Firstly, this industry takes a long time to get to know people. It seems to be long lead times. That's the first learning that we've had. Our traditional industry in hospitality, people will buy in this industry. It's going to take some time and we're happy about that. We understand that. So for us, this is about learning about know about how the industry works. Everybody's really friendly. Andy Povey: We try. Yeah. Jon Horsfield: That's one of the first things that we found out with this. This industry is everybody is really friendly and that's quite nice. Even some of our competitors, we're having nice conversations with people. Everybody is really lovely. The third point is the fact that I didn't know that there were so many niche markets and I found out where my mother buys her scarves and Christmas presents from. So it's been really interesting seeing the different types of things that people are looking for. We've sort of noticed that it's really about preservation. That's one of the main areas. There's a lot of things about preservation. Another one is about the display, how things are being displayed, and lots of innovative ways of doing that. But also the bit that we're really interested in is the commercialization. Jon Horsfield: There's a real push within the industry to start to commercialise things and bring in more revenue from the same people. Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's all about securing the destiny so that you're not reliant on funding from external parties or government and you taking that control. So what do you do at Centrio that helps? Jon Horsfield: Well, first of all. First of all, I would say the efficiencies that we can bring with back office systems integrations. We're very well aware of what we do, we're also aware of what we don't do. So, for example, we're not a ticketing provider, we're a specialist retail and F and B supplier. So it's about building those relationships and actually integrating. We've got a lot of integrations available and we're very open to that. So that's the first thing. But one of the key things that we're trying to bring to this industry is the way that you can use technology to increase revenue. So the kiosks that we've got here, it's proven that you'll get a minimum average transaction value increase of 10 to 15%. Andy Povey: And what do you put that down to? Jon Horsfield: The ability to upsell. Okay, with kiosks, as long as, if you put, for example, with a burger, if you just have a nice little button, say would you like the bacon fries with that? It's an extra few pounds. Well, actually if you've got an extra few pounds on every single transaction, that makes an incredible difference to the bottom line. From the same number of customers. Some of our clients over in the USA have seen an ATV increase above to 60% with the use of kiosks. Andy Povey: And that's just through selling additional fries. Jon Horsfield: Exactly. People will. I went to a talk many years ago when people started to adopt kiosks and the traditional thing is the fact that people will order two Big Macs and a fries to a kiosk, but when you go face to face, they will not order two Big Macs and a fries. Andy Povey: So you're saying I'm a shy fatty who's basically. Jon Horsfield: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, Andy. Absolutely not. So that's really what it's about. It's about using the sort of the high street technology and applying that to a different industry and trying to bring everybody along with us. Dominic Jones: And you need to listen to the Skip the Queue. It's the best podcast series ever. It'll give you this industry. Paul Marden: Perfect. That was a lovely little sound bite. Dom, welcome. Dominic Jones: It's the truth. It's the truth. I love Skip the Queue. Paul Marden: Welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul, welcome. For your first time, let's just start with a quick introduction. Dom, tell everybody about yourself. Dominic Jones: So I'm Dominic Jones, I'm the chief executive of the Mary Rose Trust and I'm probably one of Skip the Queue's biggest fans. Paul Marden: I love it. And biggest stars. Dominic Jones: Well, I don't know. At one point I was number one. Paul Marden: And Paul, what about yourself? What's your world? Paul Woolf: Well, I'm Paul Woolf, I've just joined the Mary Rose as a trustee. Dom's been kind of hunting me down politely for a little bit of time. When he found out that I left the King's Theatre, he was very kind and said, right, you know, now you've got time on your hands, you know, would you come over and help? So yeah, so my role is to support Dom and to just help zhuzh things up a bit, which is kind of what I do and just bring some new insights into the business and to develop It a bit. And look at the brand, which is where my skills. Dominic Jones: Paul is underselling himself. He is incredible. And the Mary Rose Trust is amazing. You haven't visited. You should visit. We're in Portsmouth Historic Dock blog. But what's great about it is it's about attracting great people. I'm a trustee, so I'm a trustee for good whites. I'm a trustee for pomp in the community. I know you're a trustee for kids in museums. I love your posts and the fact that you come visit us, but it's about getting the right team and the right people and Paul has single handedly made such a difference to performance art in the country, but also in Portsmouth and before that had a massive career in the entertainment. So we're getting a talent. It's like getting a Premiership player. And we got Paul Woolf so I am delighted. Dominic Jones: And we brought him here to the Museum Heritage show to say this is our industry because we want him to get sucked into it because he is going to be incredible. You honestly, you'll have a whole episode on him one day. Paul Marden: And this is the place to come, isn't it? Such a buzz about the place. Paul Woolf: I've gone red. I've gone red. Embarrassed. Paul Marden: So have you seen some talks already? What's been impressive for you so far, Paul? Paul Woolf: Well, we did actually with the first talk we were listening to was all about touring and reducing your environmental impact on touring, which is quite interesting. And what I said there was that, you know, as time gone by and we had this a little bit at theatre actually. But if you want to go for grant funding today, the first question on the grant funding form, almost the first question after the company name and how much money you want is environmental impact. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Paul Woolf: And so if you're going tour and we're looking now, you know, one of the things that Dom and I have been talking about is, you know, Mary Rose is brilliant. It's fantastic. You know, it's great. It's in the dockyard in Portsmouth and you know, so. And, and the Andes, New York, you know, everywhere. Dominic Jones: Take her on tour. Paul Woolf: Why isn't it on tour? Yeah. Now I know there are issues around on tour. You know, we've got the collections team going. Yeah, don't touch. But nonetheless it was interesting listening to that because obviously you've got to. Now you can't do that. You can't just put in a lorry, send it off and. And so I thought that was quite interesting. Dominic Jones: Two, it's all the industry coming together. It's not about status. You can come here as a student or as a CEO and you're all welcome. In fact, I introduced Kelly from Rubber Cheese, your company, into Andy Povey and now you guys have a business together. And I introduced them here in this spot outside the men's toilets at Museum and Heritage. Paul Woolf: Which is where we're standing, by the way. Everybody, we're outside the toilet. Dominic Jones: It's the networking, it's the talks. And we're about to see Bernard from ALVA in a minute, who'll be brilliant. Paul Marden: Yes. Dominic Jones: But all of these talks inspire you and then the conversations and just seeing you Andy today, I'm so delighted. And Skip the Queue. He's going from strength to strength. I love the new format. I love how you're taking it on tour. You need to bring it to the May Rose next. Right. Paul Marden: I think we might be coming sometimes soon for a conference near you. Dominic Jones: What? The Association of Independent Museums? Paul Marden: You might be doing an AIM conference with you. Dominic Jones: Excellent. Paul Marden: Look, guys, it's been lovely to talk to you. Enjoy the rest of your day here at M and H. Paul Marden: Stephen, welcome back to Skip the Queue. Stephen Spencer: Thank you very much. Paul Marden: For listeners, remind them what you do. Stephen Spencer: So I'm Stephen Spencer. My company, Stephen Spencer Associates, we call ourselves the Ambience Architects because we try to help every organisation gain deeper insight into the visitor experience as it's actually experienced by the visitor. I know it sounds a crazy idea, really, to achieve better impact and engagement from visitors and then ultimately better sustainability in all senses for the organisation. Paul Marden: For listeners, the Ambience Lounge here at M and H is absolutely rammed at the moment. Stephen Spencer: I'm trying to get in myself. Paul Marden: I know, it's amazing. So what are you hoping for this networking lounge? Stephen Spencer: Well, what we're aiming to do is create a space for quality conversations, for people to meet friends and contacts old and new, to discover new technologies, new ideas or just really to come and have a sounding board. So we're offering free one to one advice clinic. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Stephen Spencer: Across a whole range of aspects of the visitor journey, from core mission to revenue generation and storytelling. Because I think, you know, one of the things we see most powerfully being exploited by the successful organisations is that kind of narrative thread that runs through the whole thing. What am I about? Why is that important? Why should you support me? How do I deliver that and more of it in every interaction? Paul Marden: So you're Having those sorts of conversations here with people on a one to one basis. Stephen Spencer: Then we also are hosting the structured networking event. So all of the sector support organisations that are here, they have scheduled networking events when really people can just come and meet their peers and swap experiences and again find new people to lean on and be part of an enriched network. Paul Marden: Absolutely. So we are only half a day in, not even quite half a day into a two day programme. So it's very early to say, but exciting conversations, things are going in the direction that you hoped for. Stephen Spencer: Yes, I think, I mean, we know that the sector is really challenged at the moment, really, the fact that we're in now such a crazy world of total constant disruption and uncertainty. But equally we offer something that is reassuring, that is enriching, it's life enhancing. We just need to find better ways to, to do that and reach audiences and reach new audiences and just keep them coming back. And the conversations that I've heard so far have been very much around that. So it's very exciting. Paul Marden: Excellent. One of themes of this episode that we'll be talking to lots of people about is a little bit of crystal ball gazing. You're right, the world is a hugely, massively disrupted place at the moment. But what do you see the next six or 12 months looking like and then what does it look like for the sector in maybe a five year time horizon? Stephen Spencer: Okay, well, you don't ask easy questions. So I think there will be a bit of a kind of shaking down in what we understand to be the right uses of digital technology, AI. I think we see all the mistakes that were made with social media and what it's literally done to the world. And whilst there are always examples of, let's say, museums using social media very cleverly and intelligently, we know that's against the backdrop of a lot of negativity and harm. So why would we want to repeat that, for example, with generative AI? Paul Marden: Indeed. Stephen Spencer: So I heard a talk about two years ago at the VAT conference about using AI to help the visitor to do the stuff that is difficult for them to do. In other words, to help them build an itinerary that is right for them. And I think until everyone is doing that, then they should be very wary of stepping off the carpet to try and do other things with it. Meanwhile, whilst it's an immersive experience, it is not just sitting in, you know, with all respect to those that do this, A, you know, surround sound visual box, it is actually what it's always been, which is meeting real people in authentic spaces and places, you know, using all the senses to tell stories. So I think we will need to see. Stephen Spencer: I've just been given a great coffee because that's the other thing we're offering in the coffee. It's good coffee. Not saying you can't get anywhere else in the show, just saying it's good here. Yeah. I think just some realism and common sense creeping into what we really should be using these technologies for and not leaving our visitors behind. I mean, for example, you know, a huge amount of the natural audience for the cultural sector. You know, people might not want to hear it, but we all know it's true. It's older people. And they aren't necessarily wanting to have to become digital natives to consume culture. So we shouldn't just say, you know, basically, unless you'll download our app, unless you'll do everything online, you're just going to be left behind. That's crazy. It doesn't make good business sense and it's not right. Stephen Spencer: So I just think some common sense and some. Maybe some regulation that will happen around uses of AI that might help and also, you know, around digital harms and just getting back to some basics. I was talking to a very old colleague earlier today who had just come back from a family holiday to Disney World, and he said, you know, you can't beat it, you cannot beat it. For that is immersive. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But it's not sealed in a box. Stephen Spencer: No, no. And it really. It's a bit like Selfridges. I always took out. My favourite store is Selfridges. It still does what Harry Gordon Selfridge set out to do. He said, "Excite the mind and the hand will reach for the pocket." I always say. He didn't say excite the eye, he said, excite the mind. Paul Marden: Yeah. Stephen Spencer: The way you do that is through all the senses. Paul Marden: Amazing. Stephen Spencer: And so, you know, digital. I'm sure he'd be embracing that. He would be saying, what about the rest of it? Paul Marden: How do you add the human touch to that? Yeah. I was at Big Pit last week. Stephen Spencer: As they reopened, to see this. Yeah. Paul Marden: And it was such an amazing experience walking through that gift shop. They have so subtly brought the museum into the gift shop and blended the two really well. Stephen Spencer: Yes. And I think that raises the bar. And again, if you want to make more money as a museum, you need to be embracing that kind of approach, because if you just carry on doing what you've always done, your revenue will go down. Paul Marden: Yes. Stephen Spencer: And we all know your revenue needs to go up because other. Other sources of income will be going down. Paul Marden: Sarah, welcome back to Skip the Queue last time you were here, there was a much better looking presenter than, you were in the Kelly era. Sarah Bagg: Yes, we were. Paul Marden: It's almost as if there was a demarcation line before Kelly and after Kelly. Why don't you just introduce yourself for me? Tell the listeners what it is that you do. Sarah Bagg: So I'm Sarah Bagg. I'm the founder of Rework Consulting. The last time I spoke, it wasn't that long after our launch. I think like two and a half years ago. We've just had our third birthday. Paul Marden: Wow. Sarah Bagg: Which is completely incredible. When we first launched rework, were specifically for the visitor attractions industry and focused on ticketing. Paul Marden: Yep. Sarah Bagg: So obviously we are a tech ticketing consultancy business. In the last three and a half years we've grown and now have five verticals. So attractions are one of them. Paul Marden: And who else do you work with then? Sarah Bagg: So the art, the leisure industry. So whether it be activity centres, cinemas, bowling centres and then live entertainment. So it could be anything from sports, festivals etc and the arts, like theatres or. Paul Marden: So closely aligned to your attractions. Then things that people go and do but different kinds of things loosely. Sarah Bagg: Say they're like live entertainment. Paul Marden: I like that. That's a nice description. So this must be Mecca for you to have all of these people brought together telling amazing stories. Sarah Bagg: I think how I would sum up museum and heritage today is that I think we're kind of going through a period of like being transformed, almost like back. People are reconstructing, connecting with real experiences and with people. Paul Marden: Yeah. Sarah Bagg: And I would like to think that tech is invisible and they're just to support the experience. I think there's a lot of things that are going on at the moment around, you know, bit nostalgia and people dragging themselves back to the 90s. And there's a lot of conversations about people and customer service and experience. And although technology plays a huge part in that, I would still like to think that people come first and foremost, always slightly weird from a technology consultant. Paul Marden: Well, nobody goes to a visitor attraction to be there on their own and interact with technology. That's not the point of being there. Yeah. Interesting talks that you've been today. Sarah Bagg: I think one of my favourite was actually one of the first of the day, which was about. Of how do you enhance the visitor experience through either like music and your emotions and really tapping into how you feel through, like all your different senses. Which was one of Stephen's talks which I really enjoyed. Paul Marden: That's really interesting. Sarah Bagg: I think if people like look at the visitor industry and across the board, that's why I'm so keen to stay, like across four different sectors, we can learn so much pulling ideas from like hospitality and restaurants and bars.Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: Even if you think about like your best, there's a new bar there, so you can not very far from my home in Brighton and the service is an amazing. And the design of the space really caters for whether you're in there with 10 people or whether you're sat at the bar on your own. It doesn't exclude people, depending on what age you are or why you gone into the bar. And I think we can learn a lot in the visitor attractions industry because there's been a lot of talk about families today. I don't have children and I think that there, you need. Sarah Bagg: We need to think more about actually that lots of other people go to visitor attractions Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: And they don't necessarily take children and they might want to go on their own. Yes, but what are we doing to cater for all of those people? There's nothing. Paul Marden: How do you make them feel welcome? How do you make them feel like they're a first class guest? The same as everybody else. Yeah. So where do you see the sector going over the next few years based on what you've seen today? Sarah Bagg: I think there'll be a lot more diversification between sectors. There's definitely a trend where people have got their assets. You know, like if you're looking at things like safari parks and zoos, places that have already got accommodation, but maybe like stately houses where there used to be workers that were living in those cottages or whatever, that they're sweating their assets. I think it would be interesting to see where tech takes us with that because there has been a tradition in the past that if you've got like, if your number one priority to sell is being like your hotel, then you would have like a PMS solution. But if it's the other way around, your number one priority is the attraction or the venue and you happen to have some accommodation, then how is that connecting to your online journey? Sarah Bagg: Because the last thing you want is like somebody having to do two separate transactions. Paul Marden: Oh, completely drives me crazy. Sarah Bagg: One thing I would also love to see is attractions thinking beyond their 10 till 6 opening hours completely. Because some days, like restaurants, I've seen it, you know, maybe they now close on Mondays and Tuesdays so they can give their staff a day off and they have different opening hours. Why are attractions still fixated in like keeping these standard opening hours? Because actually you might attract a completely different audience. There used to be a bit of a trend for like doing museum late. So I was speaking to a museum not very long ago about, you know, do they do like morning tours, like behind the scenes, kind of before it even opens. And I think the museum particularly said to me, like, "Oh, we're fine as we are.". Paul Marden: I've never met a museum that feels fine where it is at the moment. Sarah Bagg: But I guess the one thing I would love to see if I could sprinkle my fairy dus. Paul Marden: Come the revolution and you're in charge. Sarah Bagg: And it's not like, it's not even like rocket science, it's more investment into training and staff because the people that work in our industry are like the gold, you know, it's not tech, it's not pretty set works, it's not like fancy display cases. Yes, the artefacts and stuff are amazing. Paul Marden: But the stories, the people stuff. Yeah. Sarah Bagg: Give them empowerment and training and make the customer feel special. Paul Marden: Yes. Sarah Bagg: When you leave, like you've had that experience, you're only ever going to get that from through the people that you interact with completely. Paul Marden: Jeremy, hello. Welcome to Skip the Queue. We are, we are being slightly distracted by a dinosaur walking behind us. Such is life at M and H show. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah. Paul Marden: So. Jeremy Mitchell: Well, anything to do with museums and dinosaurs, always great crowd pleasers. Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. So is this your first time at M and H or have you been before? Jeremy Mitchell: Been before, but probably not for 10 years or more. It was, yes. I remember last time I came the theatres were enclosed so they were partitioned all the way around. Paul Marden: Right. Jeremy Mitchell: But because it's so popular now that would not just not would not work. It's a long time ago. It shows how long I've been volunteering. Paul Marden: In museums, doesn't it? So for our listeners, Jeremy, just introduce yourself and tell everyone about the role that you've got at the Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: Okay, so I'm Jeremy Mitchell. I'm a trustee at Petersfield Museum now Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery. I'm actually now chair of trustees. Paul Marden: Paint a little picture for us of Petersfield Museum then. What could someone expect if they came to you? Apart from, as I understand, a very good cup of coffee. Jeremy Mitchell: A very good cup of coffee. Best in Petersfield. And that's not bad when there are 32 competitors. You'll get a little bit of everything you'll get a bit of. You'll get the story of Petersfield, but you'll get so much more. We've got collections of costume going back to the mid 18th century. We've got work of a local artist, Flora Torte, one of those forgotten female artists from between the wars. She's a story that we will be exploring. We've got, in partnership with the Edward Thomas Fellowship, a big archive of books and other artefacts by and about Edward Thomas, who was a poet, writer, literary critic. He's one of the poets killed in the First World War. But he's not well known as a war poet because he was writing about the impact of war on life at home. Jeremy Mitchell: So he's now more well known as a nature poet. Paul Marden: So you're telling the story not just of the place, you're telling the story of the people that have produced great art or had an impact on Petersfield. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. And their networks and how they might relate to Petersfield in turn. And we've got the costume collection I mentioned going back to the mid 18th century, which came from Bedale School. They've all got stories to them. Paul Marden: Interesting. Jeremy Mitchell: This came from Bedale School, which is a private school on the edge of Petersfield. It was actually collected by their drama teacher between the 1950s and the 1970s. Paul Marden: Wow. Jeremy Mitchell: Because she believed in authenticity. So if she was putting on a 19th century production, she would want genuine 19th century clothes. Paul Marden: Let me tell you, my drama productions in a 1980s comprehensive did not include authentic 19th century costumes. Jeremy Mitchell: If were doing something like that at school, their parents would have been, all right, go down to the jumble sale, buy some material, make something that looks something like it. Paul Marden: Yeah. Jeremy Mitchell: But no, she was, well, if you haven't got anything in your attic that's suitable, please send me some money because there's a sale at Sotheby's in three months. Time off costume from the period. Paul Marden: Excellent. Jeremy Mitchell: And we've got some lovely pieces in there. When we put on the Peggy Guggenheim exhibition, which is what were talking about earlier today here, were able to bring in costume from the 1930s, Chanel dress, other high quality, not. Not necessarily worn by Peggy Guggenheim, but her. Paul Marden: Authentic of the period. Jeremy Mitchell: Authentic of the period. But her son was at Bedale, so she could have been asked to donate. Paul Marden: So. Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Highly unlikely, but it was similar to items that she had been photographed in or would have been. Would have been wearing. Paul Marden: So tell me about the. The presentation. How was that? Jeremy Mitchell: It went so quickly. Paul Marden: Oh, yes. You get in the zone don't you? Jeremy Mitchell: You get in the zone. But it flowed and Louise was great. Louise had done the bulk of the. The work. She prepared the presentation that visually told the story of the exhibition and its outcomes and impacts. And I filled in the boring book, I call it the BBC, the boring but crucial. How we funded it, how we organised the project, management around it, the planning and getting buy in from the rest of the trustees at the beginning, because it was potentially a big financial commitment if we hadn't been able to fund it. Paul Marden: Isn't it interesting? So coming to an event like this is always. There's always so much to learn, it's always an enriching experience to come. But it's a great opportunity, isn't it, for a small museum and art gallery such as Petersfield? It feels a little bit like you're punching above your weight, doesn't it, to be invited onto this stage to talk about it. But really you're telling this amazing story and it's of interest to everybody that's here. Jeremy Mitchell: We want to share it. If we've been able to do it, then why can't they? Why can't you? Why can't we all do it? And yes, you need the story, but if you dig deep enough, those stories are there. Paul Marden: Absolutely, Absolutely. One of the things that is a real common conversation here, M and H, is looking forward, crystal ball gazing, talking. There's challenges in the sector, isn't there? There's lots of challenges around funding and I guess as a small museum, you must feel those choppy waters quite acutely. Jeremy Mitchell: Definitely. I mean, we're an independent museum, so we're not affected by spending cuts because we don't get any funding from that area. But the biggest challenge is from the funding perspective. Yes, we have a big income gap every year that we need to bridge. And now that so much more of the sector is losing what was its original core funding, they're all fishing in the same pond as us and they've got. Invariably they've got a fundraising team probably bigger than our entire museum team, let alone the volunteer fundraiser that we've got. So, yes, it is a challenge and you are having to run faster just to stand still. The ability to put on an exhibition like Peggy Guggenheim shows that we are worth it. Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Jeremy Mitchell: And the Guggenheim was funded by Art Fund Western loan programme and an Arts Council project grant. And it was a large Arts Council project grant. Paul Marden: So although everyone's fishing in the same pond as you're managing to yeah. To stretch my analogy just a little bit too far, you are managing to. To get some grant funding and. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. Paul Marden: And lift some tiddlers out the pond. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. But it was quite clear that with Peggy it was a story that had to be told. Paul Marden: So we talked a little bit about challenging times. But one of the big opportunities at M and H is to be inspired to think about where the opportunities are going forwards. You've had a day here today. What are you thinking as inspiration as next big things for Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: I'm finding that really difficult because we're small, we're a small site, Arkansas, I think has got to be a way forward. I miss the talk. But they're all being recorded. Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: So I shall be picking that one up with interest. But AR is something. We've got police cells. Well, we've got a police cell. Paul Marden: Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Now, wouldn't it be great to tell an augmented reality story of Victorian justice to kids? Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: While they're sat in a victory in a Victorian police cell on a hard wooden bench. That is the original bench that this prisoners would have slept on. Paul Marden: I've done enough school visits to know there's enough kids that I could put in a jail just to keep them happy or to at least keep them quiet whilst the rest of us enjoy our visit. Yes. I feel like I need to come to Petersfield and talk more about Peggy because I think there might be an entire episode of Skip the Queue to talk just about putting on a big exhibition like that. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah, no, definitely. If you drop me an email you can skip the queue and I'll take you around. Paul Marden: Oh lovely, Rachel, welcome to Skip the Queue. You join me here at M and H show. And we've taken over someone's stand, haven't we? I know, it feels a bit weird, doesn't it? Rachel Kuhn: I feel like we're squatting but I. Paul Marden: Feel a little bit like the Two Ronnies, cuz we're sat behind the desk. It's very strange. Which one are you? Anyway, just for listeners. Introduce yourself for me. Tell listeners what it is that you do at BOP Consulting. Rachel Kuhn: Yeah, so I'm Rachel Kuhn, I'm an associate director at BOP and we specialise in culture and the creative economy and kind of working across everything that is to do with culture and creative economy globally. But I lead most of our strategy and planning projects, particularly in the UK and Ireland, generally working with arts, heritage, cultural organisations, from the very earliest big picture strategy through to real nitty gritty sort of operational plans and outside of bop. I'm a trustee for Kids in Museums, where we love to hang, and also a new trustee with the Postal Museum. Paul Marden: Given what you do at bop, this must be like the highlight of the year for you to just soak up what everybody is doing. Rachel Kuhn: I love it. I mean, it's so lovely just going around, chatting to everybody, listening in on the talks and I think that spirit of generosity, you know, like, it just comes across, doesn't it? And it just reminds me why I love this sector, why I'm here. You know, everyone wants to, you know, contribute and it's that whole sort of spirit of what do they say? We know when the tide rises, so do all the boats or all the ships. And I feel like that's the spirit here and it's lovely. Paul Marden: It is such a happy place and it's such a busy, vibrant space, isn't it? What have been the standout things for you that you've seen today? Rachel Kuhn: I think probably on that spirit of generosity. Rosie Baker at the founding museum talking about the incredible work they've done with their events, hires, programmes. Obviously got to give a shout out to the Association of Cultural Enterprise. I've been doing a lot of hanging out there at their stage day. So Gurdon gave us the rundown of the benchmarking this morning. Some really good takeaways from that and Rachel Mackay, I mean, like, obviously. Paul Marden: Want to go into. Rachel Kuhn: You always want to see her. Really good fun, but lovely to hear. She's talking about her strategy, the Visitor Experience strategy. And you know what, I spend so much time going into places looking at these sub strategies, like visual experience strategies that just haven't been written in alignment with the overall strategy. So it's lovely to see that linking through, you know, and obviously I'm from a Visitor Experience background, so hugely passionate about the way that Visitor Experience teams can make visitors feel the organization's values. And that alignment was really impressive. So, yeah, really lovely and loads of great takeaways from all those talks. Paul Marden: I will just say for listeners, all of these talks have been recorded, so everyone's going to be able to download the materials. It take a couple of weeks before they were actually published. But one of the questions that I've asked everybody in these vox pops has been, let's do some crystal ball gazing. It's. It stinks at the moment, doesn't it? The, the, the economy is fluctuating, there is so much going on. What do you see 6 to 12 month view look like? And then let's really push the boat out. Can we crystal ball gaze maybe in five years? Rachel Kuhn: Yeah.  I mean, look, I think the whole problem at the moment and what's causing that sort of nervousness is there's just a complete lack of surety about loads of things. You know, in some ways, you know, many organisations have welcomed the extension for the MPO round, the current round, but for many, you know, that's just pushed back the opportunity to get in on that round that little bit further away. It's caused that sort of nervousness with organisations are having to ride on with the same funding that they asked for some years ago that just doesn't, you know, match, you know, and it's actually a real time cut for them. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Rachel Kuhn: So I think, very hard to say, I don't know that there's much I can say. I feel like as at sea as everyone else, I think about what the landscape looks like in the next six months, but I think that never has there been, you know, a better time than something like this like the M and H show. You know, this is about coming together and being generous and sharing that information and I think reaching out to each other and making sure that we're sort of cross pollinating there. There's so much good stuff going on and we've always been really good at that and I think sometimes when we're feeling a bit down, it feels like, oh, I just don't want to go to something like this and meet others and, you know, get into a bit of a misery cycle. Rachel Kuhn: But actually it's so uplifting to be at something like this. And I think, you know, what we've seen here is at the show today, I think, is organisations being really generous with their experience and their expertise. Suppliers and consultants and supporters of the sector being really generous with their time and their expertise and actually just shows just spending a bit of time with each other, asking things of each other. We've just got loads of stuff to share and we're all really up for it. And I think that generosity is so critical and I mean, obviously I'm going to plug, I've got to plug it. Rachel Kuhn: So, you know, if you are a supplier, if you are a commercial business working in this sector, it might be tough times for you, but it's certainly nowhere near as hard as it is for the arts and cultural heritage organisations in the sector. You know, reach out to them and see how you can support them and help them. I mean, you and I have both been on a bit of a drive recently to try and drum up some sponsorship and corporate support for kids in museums who, you know, an Arts council MPO who we're incredible, incredibly proud to represent and, you know, do reach out to us. If you've been thinking, oh, I just want to sponsor something and I'd love to sponsor us. Paul Marden: Exactly. I mean, there's loads of opportunities when you take kids in museums as an example, loads of opportunities for. And this is what Arts Council wants us to do. They want us to be more independent, to generate more of our own funding and we've got a great brand, we do some amazing work and there's lots of opportunities for those commercial organisations who align with our values to help to support us. Rachel Kuhn: So I think you asked me there about what's in the next year. So next year, six months, I don't know is the answer. I think it's just a difficult time. So my advice is simply get out there, connect, learn from each other, energise each other, bring each other up. Let's not get into that sort of doom cycle. That's very easy next five years. You know what, I've had some really interesting meetings and conversations over the last. Well, one particularly interesting one today, some other ones about some funds that might be opening up, which I think is really exciting. You know, we've seen this really big challenge with funding, you know, slowing funding going in much larger amounts to a smaller number of large organisations and that causes real problems. But I think there might be a small turnaround on that. Rachel Kuhn: I'm not crumbs in the earth. I think it's still tough times. But that was really exciting to hear about. I'm also seeing here at the show today. I've been speaking to a lot of suppliers whose their models seem to be shifting a lot. So a lot more opportunities here where it requires no investment from the attraction and a lot more sort of interesting and different types of profit share models, which I think is really interesting. So I think the other thing I'd say is if you're an attraction, don't discount partnering some of these organisations because actually, you know, go and talk to them. Rachel Kuhn: Don't just, don't just count them out because you think you haven't got anything to invest because many of them are visiting new models and the couple that I've spoken to who aren't, learn from your competitors and start doing some different models. And I think that's been really interesting to hear some very different models here for some of the products, which is really exciting. Paul Marden: It is really hard sitting on the other side of the fence, as a supplier, we need cash flow as well. We've got to pay bills and all of those sorts of things. But you're right, there are interesting ways in which we all want to have a conversation. As you say, don't sit back afraid to engage in the conversation because you've got nothing to invest, you've got an important brand, you've got an audience. Those are valuable assets that a supplier like us would want to partner with you to help you to bring a project to life. And that might be on a rev share model, it might be on a service model. There's lots of different ways you can slice it and dice it. Rachel Kuhn: And going back, on a closing note, I suppose, going back to that generosity thing, don't think because you haven't got any money to commission, you know, a supplier to the sector or a commercial company, that you can't reach out to them. Like, you know, we are in this because we really want to support these organisations. This is our passion. You know, many of us are from the sector. You know, I will always connect somebody or introduce somebody or find a way to get a little bit of pro bono happening, or, you know, many of my colleagues are on advisory committees, we're board members. And I think that's the same for so many of the companies that are, like, working with the sector. You know, reach out and ask for freebie, you know, don't ask, don't get. Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. Rachel, it is delightful to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us on Skip the Queue and I am sure, I'm sure we'll make this into a full episode one day soon. I do say that to everybody. Rachel Kuhn: Thanks so much. Lovely to speak to you. Paul Marden: Andy. Andy Povey: Paul.Paul Marden: We've just walked out of the M and H show for another year. What are your thoughts? Andy Povey: First, I'm exhausted, absolutely exhausted. I'm not sure that I can talk anymore because I've spent 48 hours having some of the most interesting conversations I've had all year. Paul Marden: No offence, Tonkin. Andy Povey: You were part of some of those conversations, obviously, Paul. Paul Marden: I was bowled over again by just the sheer number of people that were there and all those lovely conversations and everybody was just buzzing for the whole two days. Andy Povey: The energy was phenomenal. I worked out that something like the 15th show, M & H show that I've been to, and I don't know whether it's just recency because it's sitting in the far front of my mind at the moment, but it seems like this was the busiest one there's ever been. Paul Marden: Yeah, I can believe it. The one thing that didn't change, they're still working on Olympia. Andy Povey: I think that just goes on forever. It's like the fourth Bridge. Paul Marden: Talks that stood out to you. Andy Povey: I really enjoyed interpretation One led by the guy from the sign language education company whose name I can't remember right now. Paul Marden: Yeah, Nate. That was an amazing talk, listeners. We will be getting him on for a full interview. I'm going to solve the problem of how do I make a inherently audio podcast into something that's accessible for deaf people? By translating the podcast medium into some sort of BSL approach. So that was the conversation that we had yesterday after the talk. Andy Povey: I know. I really look forward to that. Then, of course, there was the George and Elise from Complete Works. Paul Marden: I know. They were amazing, weren't they? You couldn't tell at all that they were actors. Do you know, it was really strange when George. So there was a point in that talk that George gave where we all had a collective breathing exercise and it was just. It was. It was so brilliantly done and were all just captivated. There must have been. I rechon there was 100 people at theatre at that point. Absolutely. Because it was standing room only at the back. And were all just captivated by George. Just doing his click. Very, very clever. Andy Povey: But massively useful. I've seen the same thing from George before and I still use it to this day before going on to make a presentation myself. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Andy Povey: Just grounding yourself, centering yourself. Well, it's fantastic. Paul Marden: Yeah. But the whole thing that they were talking about of how do we create opportunities to have meaningful conversations with guests when they arrive or throughout their entire experience at an attraction so that we don't just talk about the weather like we're typical English people. Andy Povey: That's great, isn't it? Go and tell a Brit not to talk. Talk about the weather. Paul Marden: But training your staff makes absolute sense. Training your staff to have the skills and the confidence to not talk about the weather. I thought that was really interesting. Andy Povey: It's an eye opener, isn't it? Something really simple, but could be groundbreaking. Paul Marden: Yeah. Andy Povey: Then what was your view on all of the exhibitors? What did you take away from all the stands and everybody? Paul Marden: Well, I loved having my conversation yesterday with Alan Turing. There was an AI model of Alan Turing that you could interact with and ask questions. And it was really interesting. There was a slight latency, so it didn't feel quite yet like a natural conversation because I would say something. And then there was a pause as Alan was thinking about it. But the things that he answered were absolutely spot on, the questions that I asked. So I thought that was quite interesting. Other exhibitors. Oh, there was a lovely point yesterday where I was admiring, there was a stand doing custom designed socks and I was admiring a design of a Jane Austen sock and there was just somebody stood next to me and I just said, "Oh, Jane Austen socks." Paul Marden: Very on Trend for the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen, that all of the museums in Hampshire will be buying those up. And should funnily you should say that I'm the chief executive of Chawton Park House, which is one of the museums in the last place that Jane Austen lived. So very interesting, very small world moment at that point. Andy Povey: I do, it's almost an oxymoron to talk about Jane Austen socks. I don't imagine her having worn anything with nylon or Lycra in it. Paul Marden: Very true. I hadn't tweaked that. Andy Povey: There was a lot of AI there wasn't there AI this, AI that. Paul Marden: And there were some really good examples of where that is being used in real life. Yeah, yeah. So there were some examples where there's AI being used to help with visitor counts around your attraction, to help you to optimise where you need to put people. I thought that Neil at Symantec just talking about what he called answer engine optimisation. That was interesting. There were some brilliant questions. There was one question from an audience member asking, are there any tools available for you to figure out whether how well your organisation is doing at being the source of truth for AI tools? Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. So almost like your Google search engine ranking. Paul Marden: But exactly for ChatGPT. Andy Povey: And have you found one yet? Paul Marden: No, not yet. There's also quite a lot of people talking about ideas that have yet to find a home. Andy Povey: Yes. What a very beautiful way of putting it. Paul Marden: The people that have. That are presenting a topic that has yet to get a real life case study associated with it. So the rubber hasn't yet hit the road. I don't think on that. Andy Povey: No. I think that's true for an awful lot of AI, isn't it? Not just in our sector. Paul Marden: No. Andy Povey: It's very interesting to see where that's all going to go. And what are we going to think when we look back on this in two or three years time? Was it just another chocolate teapot or a problem looking for a solution? Or was it the revolution that we all anticipate. Paul Marden: And I think it will make fundamentals change. I think it's changing rapidly. But we need more real case studies of how you can do something interesting that is beyond just using ChatGPT to write your marketing copy for you. Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean it's all about putting the guest at the front of it, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the technology, let's look at what the technology is going to enable us to do. And back to the first part of this conversation, looking at accessibility, then are there tools within AI that are going to help with that? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there was definitely. There was an interesting talk by Vox. The people that provide, they provide all of the radio boxes for everybody to wear at M and H that provides you with the voiceover of all of the speakers. But they use this technology across all manner of different attractions and they were talking about using AI to do real time translation of tours. So you could. Andy Povey: Very interesting. Paul Marden: Yeah. So you could have an English speaker wandering around doing your tour and it could real time translate up to. I think it was up to four languages. Andy Povey: BSL not being one of those languages. Paul Marden: Well, no, they were talking about real time in app being able to see subtitles. Now, I don't know whether they went on to say you could do BSL. And we know from the other presentation that not everybody that is deaf is able to read subtitles as fast as they can consume sign language. So it's important to have BSL. But there were some parts of that Vox product that did it address deaf people. It wasn't just multilingual content. Andy Povey: So AI people, if you're listening, you can take the idea of translating into BSL in real time and call it your own. Paul Marden: Yeah, we very much enjoyed hosting our theatre, didn't we? That was a lot. And Anna, if you are listening, and I hope you are, because lots of people have said very nice things in this episode about M and H. Andy and I would love to come back next year. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Paul Marden: And host a theatre for you. Any other thoughts? Andy Povey: Just really looking forward to the rest of the week off. Yeah, it's a sign of a good show when you walk away with all that positive feeling and that positive exhaustion and you probably need a week to reflect on all of the conversations that we've had. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Next up we is AIM Conference at Mary Rose in June. I can't wait very much. Looking forward to that. Thank you ever so much for listening. We will join you again in a few weeks. See you soon. Bye Bye. Andy Povey: Draw.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 21st May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Museum Wales website: https://museum.wales/Big Pit National Coal Museum: https://museum.wales/bigpit/Catherine Pinkerton LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-pinkerton-b1905a110/Catherine Pinkerton is the Group Retail Manager at Amgueddfa Cymru - Museum Wales.Having worked in senior management positions for some of the high street's most recognisable brands such as Harrods, Selfridges, Dior and Guerlain to name but a few, Catherine spent 20+ years in London building her management career. Catherine is now the Group Retail Manager for Amgueddfa Cymru (Museum Wales). She is responsible for the management of all aspects of retail operations and development, across the national museums of Wales. Catherine is currently leading on a transformation project to create immersive retail experiences in each of the museum shops, reflecting the visitor experience and collections of each of the varied museums.Guests Also Featured in This Episode:Anya Kirkby, Freelancer - Anya Kirkby Ltd – Product Development and Graphic Design anyakirkby@gmail.comArantxa Garcia, Freelancer - Exibeo VM Creative Studio – Shop Design and Visual Merchandising Arantxa@exhibeovm.co.ukNia Elias, Director Relationships and Funding, Amgueddfa Cymru nia.elias@museumwales.ac.ukGuy Veale, Freelancer – Freelancer - Sound artist/designer - gbveale@gmail.comAmy Samways, Shop Supervisor, Amgueddfa Cymru - amy.samways@museumwales.ac.ukKate Eden, Chair, Amgueddfa Cymru - Members of Board | Museum Wales Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden. So today you join me on the top of a mountain in Blaenavon in Wales at Big Pit, the National Mining Museum. I'm here today for a really special event. I've been invited to the opening of Big Pit's new Museum Retail experience, which is a programme of work that's being done by the Museums Wales Group to improve the sense of place and the sense of feeling for what could be a blueprint for the rest of the group. We're going to be joined by a number of different people that have taken part in the project and without further ado, let's get started on our tour of Big Pit. Catherine Pinkerton: Morning, everybody. Hello, welcome. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome you all today and I know there's been a lot of you'd have travelled far and wide, so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming to see the amazing store that we've created and I hope you love it. We're just going to cut the river now. Paul Marden: First up I've got Catherine Pinkerton, Group Head of Retail at Museum Wales. Catherine, welcome to Skip the Queue. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. Paul Marden: Absolute pleasure. And this is a corker of an episode. I think everybody is going to be really interested in finding out about the retail, the gift shop experience that you guys have introduced at Big Pit and then you're going to go wider into. Into Museums Wales. This is a really weird episode because you and I are recording the morning after the day before. So yesterday was the big launch event and I was with you at Big Pit and I've met lots and lots of people and we're going to cut to them throughout the episode and hear from those people that were taking part in the project. But you and I have got the benefit of having enjoyed yester today's event and we can look back on what that experience was like and talk a little bit about the project. Paul Marden: Before we do that, I think it would be really lovely for you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Museums Wales and Big Pit specifically. Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. Okay. So I'm Catherine Pinkerton. So I head up all of the retail stores within Amgueddfa Cymru, which is National Museums of Wales. I've been with the museum just under three years and I'm good that Cymru hosts seven sites. It's an incredible establishment to be part of and I think, you know, coming from a very commercial background, this is very different for me, but I think it's given me lots of insights into bringing kind of. Lots of. Kind of different skill sets, I guess, to this cultural sector. I think when I first initially joined Amgueddfa Cymru, there were lots of challenges. And that's not to say that we still have those challenges as they are in many of our museums. And I think coming from a retail background, it's. It's looking at something that's not. That's commercial, Paul.Catherine Pinkerton: That's key. But actually, how can we make it very collection and story based on our amazing assets that we hold within our museums? And I think that I felt was probably the biggest thing that was missing because I thought we've got these amazing exhibitions, these amazing collections, amazing, you know, opportunities, and how are we putting that into the retail structure and how do we offer that to us, you know, to our visitors? And I think. I think sometimes it may be. Have forgotten that you go around these amazing spaces and it's very based on that visitor focus and how can we make that visitor feel very happy and engaged. But actually the end part of that process is nearly always coming through, exiting through the retail space. Right. Catherine Pinkerton: And if they've had this amazing opportunity to go and, you know, a lot of investment in these amazing spaces, and then they come through that retail space which has some elements, but not all of what our collections hold, there's a confusion there. You know, that end piece. And for me, customer service and visitor experience is absolutely key to how they. How they finish and how they end their day. And if they're ending their day with something, oh, okay, I'll just have a magnet then. Because there's nothing really else here. Yeah, that pains me. That really hurts me. I think, come on, guys, we can do better than this. We are in an element of. We have our own assets, our own elements to be able to kind of display that. Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think very much it would be very easy and to take the kind of easy road of having, you know, let's. Let's pop a dragon on a mug and yeah, we're a Welsh museum. No, we're not. We have assets here. We have beautiful exhibitions, we have beautiful spaces. And actually looking from further afield into. In terms of an emotional connection. And I think, you know, for me, from all of my past kind of previous work, I'm working with Amgueddfa Cymru. It's probably been the most challenging to get perhaps senior management to understand a crazy way of Catherine Pinkerton working into a. What's emotional retail? What does emotive selling mean? This lady is crazy. What's she talking about? But actually, it's really basic, isn't it? Catherine Pinkerton: Because for me, if I take my daughter or my husband to any kind of day trip, I want to take something emotional that I've connected with home with me, and that's so simple. But actually, sometimes it's not thought about in that way. And, you know, for me, I'm all about the emotional connection. And I think we put so much investment in curatorial teams to kind of give that to our visitors. We need to end that. That end part is so important for them to finish, you know, that journey with that emotional connection that they can take home as a souvenir. So, yeah, I've probably said more than I needed to there, Paul, but.Paul Marden: Absolutely. So I think you're capturing the need to curate the. The ending experience because, you know, the nature of. The nature of people's memory is they remember the beginning and they remember the end and the bit that is in the middle is hugely important to the storytelling experience they have whilst they're at the attraction. But if you don't end on a high, then their emotional connection to you and the space and the stories they've heard is not going to be as impactful for them. Catherine Pinkerton:  Absolutely, totally agree. I think it's really key, and not just in the kind of, you know, the cultural sector, but in any sector, really. I think it's really important that connection is instant, really, because that is what you need to. That's the hook, isn't it, of getting that person, you know, and. And actually understanding what the visitor needs. I mean, it's very easy for me to say on a personal level, I'd love to have this collection of products within the shop, but actually, that's not what data tells us. That's not what our demographic tells know, you know. And they are the ones that are important. Our local communities, our demographic is key for us to be successful. Paul Marden: You know, so one of the things that I took from yesterday was the importance that you were moving away from being just any other generic Welsh gift shop to being a gift shop associated with the place. Yeah, that. That's the. That was the nub of I think, what you were trying to get to how do you go about doing that? How did you make it feel so much like a gift shop? About Big Pit? Catherine Pinkerton: It's taken a process of really pulling everything back and getting under the skin, what is the detail and the personality of the site. But actually it's talking to people and being humour. And Paul, you know, I think, very much, as I say, it'd be very ignorant for me to say this is what I think will work. And that's absolutely not what we want. What we want is for the visitors to say, I really. I mean, what was really interesting, actually, is that we did quite a lot of data analysis in terms of the demographics of customers that come through our sites. But also what was really key is areas of the sites that were really kind of, you know, three key areas that they really enjoyed or they really loved. Catherine Pinkerton:  And actually, one of the top ones was the pit ponies that they all love the pit ponies, they love talking about it, they love the stories that the mining team would talk about. It was a really inspiring, you know, inspirational moment for them to think, oh, my gosh, the pit ponies lived underground. This is really so, you know, I think in some respects that was probably missed in terms of our retail offer, because what we did after that is that we had a workshop with all our retail team and we almost did a little bit like a Dragon's Den effect. We said, right, these are the products that we have, right? Can you pick up out of these products, which products represent the pit ponies? Which products represent the shower rooms? Catherine Pinkerton: And actually, when you're talking to the teams in kind of a literal sense, there wasn't a lot within our retail offer that we already had. And I think it was a bit of a light bulb moment, really, for the retail team and said, “Oh, Kath. Right, I see, Yeah, I understand what you mean.” That's not represented in our retail offer. So what's represented currently was wonderful things and lots of Welsh kind of products. But actually, what. What makes that relatable to our site? And so I think what I wanted to do originally is just go on a journey and to kind of really, from a very basic stage, is understand what the site's POS was and actually understand what their personality was and what the curatorial team were trying to push forward as being their identity. Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think once we got the identity, we then broke that down into themes in terms of there's pit ponies. That's a huge part of the, you know, the exhibition. The other huge part of the exhibition were the canaries. So, you know, that was something that was talked about. There's a huge story around that. And then, you know, the kind of mining history and the community was massive. And actually that element was so important to me and the retail team to make sure that we got right. Because this is history, right? And this is. I come from both my grandparents were miners. So for me it was very much a, you know, a very emotional time for me to make sure that we got it right and that it was respectfully done. Catherine Pinkerton:  So that was really key in terms of how do we deliver this. That's really. That we are not stepping on people's toes. We're not profiting from something that was, you know, the strike range is very significant within what we've offered, but we really wanted to make sure that was respectful and that it was done in a tasteful way that people felt they could take a souvenir away, but know that was actually part of the exhibition. So it was those kind of areas that we really wanted to work. So once we have those themes in place in terms of what those looked like, it was then developing that and how do we develop that into an actual concept? Paul Marden: Yeah, and you've drawn in lots of people. You've already mentioned the kind of wide team that you brought in from Big Pit itself, but from the wider team in the group. Talk a little bit about what that experience has been like as a team. Who have you brought into this? Catherine Pinkerton:  So originally, when we wrote the retail concept and the retail strategy, you obviously have to kind of involve quite a lot of internal candidates to be able to allow them to believe that this journey and vision is a good one. And I'm super thankful. I've got the most amazing manager, Marc Simcox. He's the head of enterprises and he is incredible. He's very commercial, but very trusting in terms of understanding what the business should look like and actually giving that freedom to say, yeah, I think this can work. Kath. So you, you go ahead and that. That's huge. Right. We're not talking about a small project here. So that firstly was great for me. And then I think having the, you know, the opportunity to be able to get some key people. Catherine Pinkerton: And Matthew Henderson we've worked with previously and we've, you know, I knew straight away, for me, Matthew Henderson has gotten. Got a very unique way of working and we work very well together. We've got quite similar kind of ways of working, but I think that development and concept phase is really key and I think it really got to the point where we just sat in a room and kind of really understood what are we trying to achieve here, how can we achieve that? And really just making it very basic in terms of the key themes. And then in terms of product development, we brought on Anya Kirkby. So she is an illustrator and a very clever lady indeed. And we have worked with lots of illustrators and lots of suppliers over the years. Catherine Pinkerton: But what we wanted something for Big Pit was to be quite different in terms of the illustration and the product development. Because what we wanted to deliver with Big Pit was something that had been my vision since the very beginning when I started with Amgueddfa Cymru. And that is, you know, going into the shop and having those guidelines, you know, pricing guidelines, information guidelines, those small details which would probably mean nothing to the average person walking through, but actually a price ticket on something that's been illustrated pains me to see, because the work that's gone on behind that is so key. Catherine Pinkerton: And, you know, for most people not understanding that a price ticket on that is so I think those details are really key, Paul, and I think she really worked stringently with me to make sure that was, was, that was kind of a massive aspect of that role. And then Arantxa Garcia, who is just the most incredible designer. She's, she's a genius in what she does. She's incredibly creative and sometimes you have to kind of pull her back and say, okay, you want this? Okay, can you deliver this rancher? Paul Marden: Yeah. Catherine Pinkerton: And what was really interesting with a rancher is that, you know, she's got a huge, amazing CV of working with lots of people within the cultural sector and designing amazing, incredible pieces. But I think were very nervous because the, the original kind of renders that she sent through to us were quite amazing and impressive. And I said, arantha, are you able to deliver this under the kind of, you know, the budget? We've got a tight budget here. Paul Marden: That's the challenge, isn't it? Catherine Pinkerton: I mean, isn't it? Paul Marden: You do not want to be paying, you don't want to be offered the picture of a Maserati when you have got a Ford Fiesta budget, do you need to know that you can afford it. Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. And I think with Aranta, she was very, again, super creative lady. And I think I, as soon as I saw that image, I did say to her, right, you need to deliver this now. You've, you've committed to it, Arantia, so this needs to happen. And then finally, Richard Evans, who has, is hugely respected in the cultural sector and he really supported in terms of project management and the, you know, I hate to say this, and you won't mind me saying this, but the kind of boring kind of financial Gantt charts and keeping me in line actually. Right, Cath, we haven't got a budget for that. You can't spend that. Come on, Richard, make it work. Move some things around, you know. Catherine Pinkerton: So I think that was kind of the main area and then internally, Tracy Lucas, who was kind of my right hand woman, is our operations manager within Amgueddfa Cymru and she really supported me along with Amy, the shop manager, shop supervisor to really look at the product development. So I think, you know, and I think it was really nice actually to have them on board because I think it gave an opportunity for them to see what could be. And I think, you know, definitely in terms of retail, it's been an opportunity for us to be able to say, look, this, the impossible can be possible. Catherine Pinkerton: Actually this is an amazing project and I think what was really incredible is that when we decided to work on Big Pit, the Big Pit team and all of the mining team actually just came on board, Paul, they took it on board and I think the reason why they did that is that one of the mining teams said to me, he said, kath, you know, we never get any funding here. It's always in this big cities, you know, we, the Cardiff and it's never here, you know, we're just in the middle of nowhere. And I was like, absolutely not. That is not what this is about. It's about, you know, making sure that the community in that area is solid. Catherine Pinkerton: And I think the mining industry and they're very proud of that in terms of who works there, they're incredibly proud of what they do. And so because we chose that as our first project, they were so helpful in terms of, yeah, we're going to make this work, let's make it a success. Cath, how can we do that? What do you need from me? I mean at one point we had two of the mining staff pulling one of the drums which we upcycled out of it was like a lake or, yeah, I suppose a lake with a tractor. And I was like, this is crazy. This is crazy but just amazing that these team members are willing to do above and beyond to kind of go and help and support.Catherine Pinkerton: Dwayne Smith, finally I have to mention him because he went above and beyond. He, he's an electrical engineer for Amgueddfa Cymru and no feat was kind of Too hard for him. He helped us massively. He's got a huge team of people and anything that we needed done, I'm not, you know, I'm not a trades person, so anything Trady. I was like, Dwayne, yeah, I'm on it, Kath, I'll do it. Which is great because I was like, okay, yes, that was massively helpful, but huge learning curve, Paul. I feel I've never been so excited about drums in my entire working career as I am now. Paul Marden: And I never heard of one until yesterday. But what I found interesting was you see them all the way through the underground experience. I went down in the. The cage to the bottom of the pit head, did the whole tour. You talk about these drams and the importance of them and the transportation of the coal from throughout the mine back up to the top. And then you walk into the shop and it's subtle. The way that you've blended the museum into the shop is a subtle experience. It doesn't feel, it doesn't feel crude. But you've got a dram in the middle of the workshop. Now, I know it's a real one because we talked about it yesterday and I know the pains that you went through, but it's very subtle placed in there so that it doesn't feel crude. Paul Marden: It doesn't feel like you're trying to overwork the metaphor of the mine in the shop. It's very cleverly done. Catherine Pinkerton:  Oh, that's great, great, great to hear. Because that's absolutely what we did not want. And I think in terms of visual merchandising, actually, and picking up on your point there, is that it's very easy for us and this is something that we're doing in a different shop. It's very easy for us to look at some of our assets and pop them on a tote bag and say, there you go, that's done, we'll sell that. But actually, no, what can we do that's different? That's more kind of innovative? That's more creative. That is a hint or perhaps an opportunity for us to show and display something that is. Is then part of the visitors question. So when they're coming into store and they're speaking to our retail teams, they're questioning, is this a real drum? Catherine Pinkerton:  You know, and that is a conversation opener, isn't it? You know, and I think Kerry Thompson, who is the curator for Big Pit, he's a really inspiring man. I could listen to him all day. And he told me lots about kind of the drums and the history of Big Pit and the strikes. He's such an interesting man, but I think having the inspiration from him allowed us to make sure that we did it not in a crude way, actually, Paul, but that it was representative of the site, but not in a way that's, I guess, too obvious, you know. Paul Marden: Look, Kath, we could carry on talking for ages, but let's cut at this point to hear about some of the voices from the team that you worked with, your internal team, some of the partners that you worked with, about the experiences that they've had on the project. Paul Marden: So let's hear from some of the internal team members involved in the project. Firstly, we have Amy Samways, the retail supervisor at Big Pit, followed by Kate Eden, the chair of Museum Wales. And lastly, Nia Elias, the Director of Relationships and Funding at the Museum of Wales. Hey, Amy, how you doing? Lovely to meet you. What's your role at the museum, Amy? Amy Samways: I'm the shop supervisor for Big Pit. Paul Marden: What have you been doing in this whole project? I guess you've been integral to the whole kind of making it all about the place. Amy Samways: Yeah, so I've worked with Anya, who did all the products for the new shop. So we walked around all the exhibitions. We did a lot of underground visits and a lot of museum visits and just put things together. I've done a lot of work before this project for the last two years to try and get things more relevant to us and not just a Welsh souvenir shop. So a lot of those products stayed and then we just expanded them then. Paul Marden: So how do you go about looking for those products that make it local to here? Amy Samways: Well, we've got a fantastic exhibition at the top of the hill. We've got obviously our ex miners and we also have a lot of events through the times as well. So this year was a lot about the strike because obviously it's the 40th anniversary and we've got a massive exhibition down in Cardiff and also there's a smaller one up year as well. So we just walked through the museum and obviously, you know that disasters are obviously a big issue. We didn't want to make a big issue about those, but obviously they need. They're part of history, aren't they? So more books. We made sure we had books around that. And as you walk through, there's a lot of signs that the staff liked as well, because a lot of our guys have been done about the new projects with those as well on. Paul Marden: So do you then go looking for local suppliers to help you with that? And where do you find those? Amy Samways: Etsy, Facebook. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Amy Samways: Yeah, a lot of them. And also online. And then we've also. Because we work with a lot of suppliers as well, I'll say we need this and then they'll say, oh, you should ask so and so, and then we'll go and ask both. Paul Marden: Brilliant. So one of the things that's really interested me this year is talking to people that are running museum retail and that kind of process that goes from you as a buyer, having an idea, what do you want? How do you stock the shop? I think is really interesting process to go through, but flip it on the other side, as a local creator, you've got your thing and you want it in the shop. How do you get it found? Well, yeah, sticking it on Etsy is something that they're going to do, but then that might help them get into the museum. Amy Samways: Even if there is something that we want. Like at the minute, we're looking for NCB soap. Paul Marden: For what? Amy Samways: NCB soap. Paul Marden: What's that? Amy Samways: It's either bright green or bright pink and they used to buy it in the canteen shop and it's just imprinted with NCB. The guides have been asking and asking for it, but we have actually found a supplier now who's going to be working on it. So that should be coming this summer. Paul Marden: Wowzers. Amy Samways: Yeah. That's really exciting for you. Paul Marden:  What was the highlight? What's the one thing about this space, about the whole experience of the project. Amy Samways: That jumps out for me is seeing all the stock we've worked on and somebody actually buying it. Paul Marden:  And what is it that people are picking up? What are they walking in and gravitating to? Amy Samways: Anything Big pet, really. The little enamel little mugs have gone really well. I think the wording on those are great because it says they must not be removed from the premises. So our guides are loving those. And also our retro sign, which we had for our 40th anniversary and three years ago, but we kept it because it's such a brilliant design. It was the original from 1983 and it was on the original road sign as you drove in. So we've had that recreated and that sells really well. Paul Marden:  That's really interesting. So my wife with the family about 25, 30 years ago, came on a family holiday and they had the original guidebook that they picked up when they were here with the kind of the retro. Retro signage on there. Amy Samways: Yeah, we're back selling it again. Kate Eden: Yes, So my name's Kate Eden. I'm chair of the board of Amgueddfa Cymru. Paul Marden:  Tell me a little bit about your involvement in this project. Kate Eden:  As the board, we've been tracking the development of commercial and enterprises over the past year. Really. And really thrown our way, weight and support behind what the team has been trying to do here as a kind of flagship, really, for what we would all like the new benchmark to be across all of the seven sites of anger for Cymru. So seeing it all come together this morning has just been such a special experience. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm going to bring the rest of the board here as soon as I can so the trustees can see this and see the reaction of staff and of visitors as well, because it's a fabulous achievement and it shows us what we can do now as a national museum. Paul Marden: How well does it tie back into the original pitch at trustees? So I'm a trustee of a charity as well. The pressures that we're all under in terms of reducing funding and having to generate our own funding is so hugely important. This must be integral to the conversations that you were having as trustees. Did you have this in mind when you were signing off the agreement to spend the money? Kate Eden: Yeah. So I don't think anybody realised just how successful this could be. We'd had some mock ups and we'd had a presentation, so there was a lot of excitement and there was sort of the fledgling idea years. So we've got a sense of what it could be. But I think importantly for us, it's about that marriage of financial sustainability because it's got to wash its face, it's got to provide a working profit that can go back into the running of Big Pit here.Kate Eden: But it's got to be authentic to this place. It can't be the add on the visitor should shop that you walk through at the end. And it's a bit of a tedious thing to get back to the car park. It's got to be an integral part of the whole visitor experience in this place. And I think that's what they've achieved. Paul Marden: It's so impressive. So impressive. You know, just the structure that they've built to give you the impression of the mine in a really subtle way. The product that they've chosen, the way that they've laid out that, the shop is amazing. I think they've done an amazing job. Kate Eden: That's it. I mean, this is my local site. Paul Marden: Okay. Kate Eden: I live about three miles over the mountain there. So I bring my friends and family here. This is our go to place when I've got visitors. And I think just the way they've opened up the room, they've removed the barriers, which is really important. It's a small thing, but really important so that people feel welcome. They can walk in or they can walk ground. Paul Marden: Yep. Kate Eden: And it's. And it just feels a little bit more inclusive. It feels a bit more kind of, you know, we're here, it's easy to come and see us, you know, and spend time and then spend a little. Paul Marden: A little bit of money. Yeah. So where do we go from here as trustees? Are you fully behind rolling this out now? Kate Eden: Yeah, I mean, I think now that we've seen what we can do and the type of data that's coming through from sales, this is now the new. This is the bar. Paul Marden: Oh. So it has made a discernible difference to say. Kate Eden: So early data from Easter is really promising. Yeah. So this is the benchmark now from all of the other sites. Nia Elias: Hi, Paul. Hi, I'm Nia. Paul Marden: Lovely to meet you. Tell me about your role at the museum. Nia Elias: I am Director of Relationships and Funding. It basically means I get to work with all of the teams across the museum that work on the reputation, the reach, but also the revenue of this wonderful charity and national museum that we are. Because as well as getting funding from Welsh government, we raise our own income so it can be invested.Paul Marden: What sort of split? Nia Elias: What sort of split? So the majority of the money that comes to us does come from Welsh government because we're a public service, we're here free of charge for the people of Wales and we look after the national collection, which is over 5 million items across seven museums and a collection centre. Nia Elias: But there's a proportion then of money that we raise ourselves about sort of 30%, which is from our cafes and our car parks and the experiences that people have, and most importantly, our shops. Paul Marden:  So what was the inspiration for this project? Why kick off a strategy project around the whole retail experience? Nia Elias:  Well, this whole project, in essence started three and a half years ago when the museum decided that it would bring a strategy together for all of its self generated income. So that means our philanthropic income generation and through our enterprise, including our retail. And from a retail perspective, we knew that what we wanted to achieve with all of the money that we raise ourselves is that it's really rooted in the collection, because we have an amazing collection. It tells the story of Wales and it's owned by the people of Wales. Paul Marden: Right. Nia Elias: And from a retail perspective, we knew if people could engage with that and could take away something from the wonderful experience that they've had on site, that it would be something that they would want and it would make it unique that it's only possible to have here. Developing a project like this is quite challenging. You need the time, you need the teams and expertise, some of which are on your permanent team, some of which are naturally not. And also you need investment. And so by starting the thinking and the route of where we wanted to get to three and a half years ago, it meant when we had the funding and the opportunity to do so here at Big Pit, we knew exactly what to do. Paul Marden: Okay, so you. You put all of those pieces together and then came here and did the first cookie cutter stamp. But what's interesting is it's not a cookie cutter stamp, is it? This totally feels like the gift shop for this museum, doesn't it?. Nia Elias:  Yeah. So we feel really strongly that we wanted the balance of knowing that you're at a National Museum Wales site, knowing that you're somewhere unique, but equally that it has a sense of a place. Because all of our seven museums together tell the holistic story of Wales, but you really get a sense of personality on all of those sites, not just from the collection and the buildings and the items, but also from the colleagues that work here as well. Paul Marden: Right. Nia Elias: They're very much a part of that in terms of the stories that they tell, their lived experiences, and we had a sense of responsibility and fun to bring that through in the shop. Not just the ambiance, but also the products themselves, so much of them, the majority of them actually, are grounded in being inspired by the collection in some way, and also has a really strong Welsh and local profit as well. What we think that will come through to our customers and visitors and guests is that because we've worked across all of the teams in the museum, so curators and people who care for the collection, our colleagues here at Big Pit, many of whom are former miners, and our colleagues front of house, it means that everybody will be able to speak about the product. Nia Elias: So as you're walking around picking things up, imagining them in your home or as gifts, our colleagues can talk about what they mean to the place. And that brings something additional that you can't really buy. Paul Marden: Yeah. There's a story to it. There's a background to it that roots it. Yeah. Lovely. For you, what's the standout experience from the whole project? What have you enjoyed the most? Nia Elias: Two things I think in terms of the way that it's been done, the fact that so many teams have worked together behind the scenes to make it happen. That means that as we want to change things or tweak things or improve things, we'll have all of the knowledge and expertise already baked in, especially learning from other suppliers who've come along and helped us. So we've got that baked in now, which is really exciting. And the second thing is that I can stand here knowing that this is the standard of a national museum that our guests and visitors expect and want to see. Paul Marden: And now let's hear from a few of the external partners that Kath brought into the project. Arantxa Garcia was the shop designer and visual merchandiser. Anya Kirkby was responsible for product development. And Guy Veal was responsible for sound design. Tell me about your involvement in the project. Arantxa Garcia: Sure. So I'm the shop designer and visual merchandiser. It's a freelance role, so. So I worked with the team, Matthew, Richard, Anne and Guy. Paul Marden: Excellent. Arantxa Garcia: So we kind of all came as part of a team and each one of us looked after different areas of the project. And my involvement was to kind of reinvent and reimagine what was already here. And the idea was to create a space that was connected to the experience and to the site itself. So we've basically ripped the space apart. We've kind of kept the structure, obviously, but we've opened up the space as well. Before the shop, it would be very separate. You'd have admissions and then you have the shop area, which meant that you were only really accessing the shop if you came to visit the site. But as a local, you wouldn't be able to come, for example. Or you could, but maybe not in such an open way. Paul Marden: Yeah, you wouldn't feel welcome. Arantxa Garcia: Exactly, exactly. You may not want to just because you didn't know, whereas now you can just come in and basically hang around and also browse the shop. Exactly. We took inspiration from life underground, from the mine itself. So before the building was white, the units were white, so it could be a shop anywhere. You know, it didn't really have a DNA, so to speak, or an identity that related it directly to the site. So when visiting down to the underground and King Call as well, the exhibition that we've got just up the hill, we took inspiration from basically sort of like the. The cladding that you've got on the walls. Cladding is not the right word. So if one of the miners hears me saying that, they'll be. Arantxa Garcia: That's not the word that we told you, but the idea is that all the materiality that we're using, it's really evocative of. Of the site and it's the materials that have been used underground. So even, like the safety lamps, they'll set authentic safety lamps. And the team on site, Dwayne Smith, has electrified them. So it means that now they work, obviously, as a normal light, but it's a safety. Paul Marden: But they are the original safety. Arantxa Garcia: They are the original safety. Paul Marden: Wowsers. And what about these styles? Arantxa Garcia: So, yes, I always like going for a hunt on the side. So basically the team took me to different rooms and we just found stuff, if you like. So they're like the pressure gauges, you know, we're gonna use them just to add, again, like, references to the site and the authenticity, of course. So you also find loads of tools that would have been used underground as well. Paul Marden: I would imagine that this has been a really enjoyable project for you. I can see it on your face, how much you've enjoyed it. Arantxa Garcia: It has. And I think for designers, sometimes there's projects that take a bit longer to emerge and you keep changing things because you just don't feel probably quite right. There's something. But with this one, it kind of. After the site visit, it was just. Paul Marden: I clicked immediately.Arantxa Garcia: It just clicked immediately. So we darkened the wall. So we've kind of given that sort of grey background just to kind of creating more of like a cosy and shrinking the space. Paul Marden: But you. It pops the orange. Arantxa Garcia: Exactly. And the orange is everywhere. So, like, we've also changed the lighting, so it's a lot warmer. So again, that hint of orange. Yeah, orange on the back, orange on the miners on here. And then it comes also from the products. So the identity is there, but without going fully corporate, if that makes sense. That's the colour that you remember, isn't it? You've just been on the ground. All our guides and miners wear the orange overalls and the sort of, like the blue jackets over it, whether it's a donkey jacket in the winter or then they wear the soft shells as well. So, yeah, it's all those details, like those hints to the experience that kind of are embedded in the design. And these are regional as well. The drums are regional, all the flatbeds. Arantxa Garcia:  So the team here took the metal sides off and then sort of like left the skeleton of the drum, varnished it. And then our shop fitters aren't here. They did all the sort of the cladding using reclaimed scaffolding boards. But the original Drums would have been made out of wood. Paul Marden: Beautiful. It's so tactile, isn't it? Arantxa Garcia:  It's tactile. Again, we're looking at the DNA all the time. And shops can be more than just shops. Shops can tell stories. You just connect with it in a very different way. And just having the time the team on site involved has been absolutely incredible. Like the sense of pride and belonging and provenance that this kind of has awakened, it's been great. It's your job done really as a designer. When you just feel like everyone owns it, that's your job, that's when you can walk away. Paul Marden: What an amazing testimonial for you and the work that everyone feels like that. Anya, lovely to meet you. Tell me, what was your involvement in the project? Anya Kirkby: So I mainly focused on product development. So we looked at where we could get inspiration from the site and how we could translate that really from the site experience into the shop experience as well. Paul Marden: Okay, so you're coming, you're experiencing what's going on and then looking to the outside world as to how you can source your products. Where do you go for the inspiration for the products? Anya Kirkby: Working with the team a lot. So Amy was a huge help on guiding us on what things would be very useful for visitors, what they really enjoyed when they were on site, what were their key take home messages that they experienced. And then working with Amy and Tracey as well to look at what products people like when they're in the shop anyway and how we can kind of marry those two up. Paul Marden: So what is it that people like when they come to Big Pit? Anya Kirkby: Well, unsurprisingly, the mine, they enjoy the mines, the mining experience. So that was just something that we already had in the shop. So we just expanded on that more if possible. But then we've also taken inspiration from signage. So they already had the original Big Pit signage and we looked at that and kind of again expanded on it. So then we've kind of expanded that to signage that you find in some of the other exhibits. So up in the showers, for example, in the canteen, signage, some of the original pieces from collections. We then translated that into products. So you'll see we've got the designs across mugs, original little metal signs, moved that across to prints, notebooks, postcards. Paul Marden: You've been developing a lot of the products yourself, so bringing that kind of the unifying feel to everything. Anya Kirkby: Yeah. So along with product development and making all the kind of the new things that we can have it's just bringing across the branding through the AC brand really strongly across everything. It's got such a strong message that we may as well have that on as many products as we possibly can do. Paul Marden: And how much of the stuff is actually locally sourced? Anya Kirkby: Oh, it's huge amounts. And the exciting thing is after speaking to Amy, the things that she needs to reorder are the local suppliers, which is so nice. So a lot of the confectionery that's locally sourced candles, soap, the coal figures, the wooden spoons, chocolate boxes, the biscuit boxes. So as much as possible. And then we've worked with local suppliers as well to do photography, to do some of the signage, to do the original signwriting in the shop as well. So beyond products, we've looked at the POS points like elements of the shop as well. So thankfully we've used as many local spires as we possibly can. Paul Marden: You've enjoyed this project, haven't you? Anya Kirkby: I absolutely loved it, yeah. It's fantastic to see it's absolutely amazing. Paul Marden: Yeah. Anya Kirkby: So yeah, it's really special. Paul Marden: And then from here you springboard on to the other seven sites. How do you, how do you come up with the ideas then? Anya Kirkby: Exactly the same process. So working with the teams to find out what it is that visitors absolutely love about their sites and bringing that into the shop experience. So again I get very lucky. I get to go around a lot museums and experience it. Paul Marden: It's a tough job, isn't it?Anya Kirkby: It's tricky. But basically finding out what they love and bringing that through the really things that visitors take home with them anyway and just making it into a product that they can actually physically take a piece of the museum home with them as well. Paul Marden: It's great because there are some pocket money items here because I take kids on school visits and it's a very expensive experience. You know, if they catch take a fiver with them, often they can't get anything with a fiver but they can walk in and they've got pencils, they've got rubbers and they'll walk out happy with those little bits. But at the same time you've got some beautiful stuff that the grown ups can come and pick up and really enjoy. Anya Kirkby: It's the same as any museum visitor. You kind of have to look at who's going to be visiting. It's all types of people that come and just gauging it from that as well. So having an offer for everyone that they can enjoy. Someone said to me once that children for the first time. It's often their first time having a transaction monetary wise. Is that a museum on a school trip? So it's just lovely to kind of have something for them to experience that as well. Paul Marden: Never thought of it like that. They're out on their own. They're not with mum and dad. So they've got the money themselves and they've got to make the decision. So we are at. I took some kids to the science museum last year. Anya Kirkby: Oh. Paul Marden: And the amount of time we took in the shop because of the indecision that they had. Anya Kirkby: It's the indecision decision and then the queue of all them having a five pound note and having all the change come back or not having quite enough. But I think it's such an important. If you can't do that in a museum, where can you do it? Paul Marden: Guy. Hi. Guy Veale: Hi. Paul Marden: I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about what was your part of the project? Guy Veale: I was sound designer for the soundscape which we can't hear when everyone's chatting. Paul Marden: I can hear some birds in the background. Is that. Guy Veale: Is that canaries? Living canaries. Not dead gas. Paul Marden:  Coal mine canary. Guy Veale: So I did a little bit of research sort of towards the end of the project after lots of stuff had been built in, when they decided that some low level sound would be a good part of the experience. And looking at the brief and the shape of the room, the acoustics, a lot of this new ducting that's gone in that was not then easy to put cables into. We had to go for a wireless solution. Paul Marden:  Okay. Guy Veale: As part of that I found a Swedish company that had a system that creates its own network which is like a weird dream because normally you've got to go the IT guys and then something goes wrong and there's some sort of address problems or. Bluetooth is not always reliable. This has been a revolution just in terms of. Guy Veale: Don't if you can see them. There's little. They look like light fixtures that are centrally over these panels. Paul Marden: Oh right. Guy Veale: And they're quite. Paul Marden: Oh. And so they're speaking speakers pointing down onto the panel to separate it. So what. What. The other kind of sound pictures that you're painting. We've got the canary. What else have you got? Guy Veale: So the whole idea is that you're trying to represent the industrial heritage of the site and have as many authentic sounds from the site as possible. Paul Marden: Right. Guy Veale: So we've reused some of the really high quality recordings that also feature at different parts of the site already. Paul Marden: Yep. Guy Veale: But then, also sourced about another 70 or 80 sound from the BBC archive. Paul Marden: Oh, wow. Guy Veale: Paid for. And so. But if you think about those sounds, they're quite punctuated and aggressive. You think of any industrial sound and like chipping away or different tipples working. You know, the idea is that you don't want to surprise someone that while they're shopping and leaning over next to a speaker and hearing. So it needed to be softened in some way. And you know, traditionally the way I've done work is music and sound design is using different textures and tonal design and like a drone, I suppose, is this as a sort of basis that can be moving and organic, not totally static? Paul Marden: Yeah. Guy Veale:  And the idea was to sort of try and include fragments of relevant songs using the male voice choir.Paul Marden:  Really.Guy Veale: And we tried several things and I looked at it and I realised that you might catch someone coming in for five minutes here and they catch a snippet and it's all well and good for them, but the staff and you've got to hear this eight hours a day, every day, you know, four weeks, a month, so forth. So even just one little identifiable recurring melody starts to get too much, even on quite a long five. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Guy Veale: And I found that it wasn't sustainable. So I, in the end, I ended up using the. Almost like the vocal warm ups and breaths of the choir artificially extended out so they're not breathing, just this constant low level, breathy sort of expulsion. I mean, if went quiet now, we'd hear it as the. As a backdrop and it's embedded with a few other little musical elements that just sort of try and soften and support. I think of it like the vowels of the track and then the consonants. Paul Marden: Or the industrial chipping noises and the harsher noises. Guy Veale: So they're harsher but they're there and they're a bit removed and reverberate and in the background. Paul Marden: But it's really interesting how you describe it in that kind of. Using the metaphor of the letters. Guy Veale: Yeah, that's what it felt like. Just trying to find something that was like a vocabulary of work that has to tick so many different boxes, including like a therapeutic retail experience. People leaving the site with a sense of well being. Also like summarising what they've been through, not sort of projecting them out the door with, you know, a completely new thing or somewhere that they haven't been through yet. So, you know, fair few things to try and fit in there and, you know, hopefully it works and we'll see how things are in a year's time. Paul Marden: Yeah. Cath, the last point I wanted touch on before we finish today is oh my God, how happy everybody was at that event yesterday. How positive the experience was for all of the team members. What was for you the big standout moment for the entire project? Catherine Pinkerton: I mean, there's so many, Paul. But I think for me it's an opportunity to see what can be achieved when people collaborate. And I think, you know, joining the museum three years ago is really collaborating with lots of different departments to achieve something as a team.Catherine Pinkerton: Teamwork is absolutely the key to kind of success and I think you can only achieve that by having that really product professional kind of embodiment with all of the collaborative teams to work together for the same goal. And I, I was really proud yesterday that it took a lot of work, but actually without a team of 40 people as well as the wider organisation, it would not have been, it was no mean feat, but it was certainly wasn't just down to one person saying this is my project because it was a team effort. Catherine Pinkerton: And I was so proud of everybody that was there to kind of thank them along the way to say, this is, we've done this and now onwards and upwards. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. You should be so proud. It really was. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you. Paul Marden:  It's a demonstration of what a museum gift shop experience can really be like when you work together like that, when you collaborate. So well done to all of you. It was such a lovely experience yesterday. Thank you for inviting me. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you so much for coming, Paul. I appreciate it. Paul Marden: Before we go though, I always ask for a book recommendation from our guests. Now it would have bankrupted me to have asked everybody yesterday for book recommendations. So you have to take the responsibility of a recommendation on behalf of everybody. What have you got for me? Catherine Pinkerton: The secret for me is, you know, that that book seems to be. I always go back to that book very often and I think it's a key one for lots of areas. So that's definitely a takeaway for me. But the other one I'm reading at the moment called A Monk's Guide to Happiness. I'm not sure if you've had enough to read it. Yeah, it's a 21st century take on A Monk's Guide. It's written by Gelong Thubten and he had a very high powered job and he had a burnout and interestingly he changed his whole mindset in terms of what makes him happy and really making it quite basic. Right. Catherine Pinkerton: So it's a, it's a real eye opener in terms of just pulling things back sometimes, you know, at the end of the day, come on, let's just live life and be happy but, you know, not stress out about things. I'm quite easy to do that. So this is very much a. Just breathe, Kath, get through it. But it's a good one. If you want to just strip it back and just kind of understanding the basics of being happy, then, yeah, he's great. Paul Marden: Oh, Cath, that's a great recommendation. If you go over to Bluesky and repost the show message that Wenalyn put out and say, I want Kath's book, then the first person that does that will get a copy of the book sent to them. Kath, it was absolutely delightful. I enjoyed my day wandering around Big Pit yesterday no end. Given that half my family is from the valleys and most of them were miners, I feel like I should have done this a very long time ago. But it was lovely. And to enjoy the experience of the celebration that you had yesterday, it was a real privilege. So thank you. Catherine Pinkerton: Oh, huge privilege to have you there. Paul. Thank you so much. I'm really appreciative. Did you purchase? Paul Marden: I did purchase on my way out. Catherine Pinkerton: Yay. Great, great, great.Paul Marden: Deal. Catherine Pinkerton: Deal. Thank you so much. Paul Marden: So after my trip 90 metres down to the bottom of the mine shaft, where I of course couldn't take microphones, I'm now back up on the surface, microphones back in hand and enjoying myself, wandering around currently in the winding house, which is where all the machinery is for lifting the cages that 90 metres down to the bottom of the pit head. I've had an amazing day here at Big Pit. It's been so interesting to see this museum and to talk to many of the amazing staff that have taken part in this big project to redesign their gift shops. Highly recommend a day trip to Big Pit. Really has been very enjoyable, if for no other reason, to see that amazing new gift shop experience. Paul Marden: Now, as always, if you'd like a copy of Catherine's book, head over to Blue sky and repost the show notice that Wenalyn will post out and say, I want a copy of Catherine's book and the first person to do that will get that copy sent over to them. So all that remains for me to say is thank you to Catherine for inviting me here to Big Pit today. And I'll see you again soon. Take care. Bye Bye. Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Send us a textIn this episode we meet John Lynch, founder of Context Studio based in Dublin, Ireland. John's career path has taken him from countries where design is part of everyone's mindset, to places where some businesses have yet to see the full value that design can bring.  He shares the approaches that he's used to gain traction and make the case for adopting Service Design and stories of how design-led approaches have helped his teams to engage diverse stakeholder groups and generate better service outcomes.We talk about the privilege of working with public sector folks, who's vocation is to make society better... and we talk of the impact of "better" vs. "new" and why Renovate often delivers more than Innovate when it comes to Service Design.About John.John Lynch is founder and director of Context Studio, a service design studio in Dublin, and a voluntary board director at the Institute of Designers in Ireland. With a background in software development, John is a committed advocate of design in the service of the public good.References from John's episode.Stratification of Design Thinking  -Stefanie Di RussoDanish Design LadderDark Matter and Trojan Horses  -Dan HillJohn Heskett Ireland's Action Plan for Designing Better Public Services.Service Design YAP is developed and produced by the Service Design Network UK Chapter.Its aim is to engage and connect the wider Service Design community. Episode Host: Stephen Wood Production Assistance: Jean Watanya

In this episode, Emily Ronquillo, Director of Marketing & Design, and Jason Moodie, Director of Learning & Visitor Experience, sit down with three SUU faculty members from different areas of the university to talk about how they engage with the museum in their courses.Kevin Koontz from Outdoor Recreation and Parks and Tourism tells us about how his classes visit SUMA to learn more about museum interpretation. Alex Bradshaw-Yerby from Dance shares how her students react to exhibitions through movement. And Susanna Herrmann from Graphic Design talks about how she uses the museum's collection to teach typography and poster design. We hope you learn more about how SUMA is an educational resource at SUU. If you want to bring a class for a tour at SUMA or learn even more about how to connect the museum to your syllabus, you can reach out to Jason at experiencesuma@suu.edu.

Sonia Winner is the CEO of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. In July 2018, she became the 10th director of the Museum in its more than 100-year history, dating back to 1920. Since then, she has spearheaded a $150 million reinvention of the institution—reimagining its campus and exhibits to highlight the interconnectedness of life on Earth.Under her leadership, the Museum continues its century-long legacy as one of the nation's top natural history institutions, stewarding over 12,000 acres of protected ecosystems and housing more than 5 million artifacts and specimens. It is supported by a nearly 60-member Board of Directors, 140 staff members, and approximately $282 million in assets.Before joining CMNH, Sonia built an impressive career in higher education and philanthropy. At Columbia University, she led record-breaking fundraising efforts, helping to secure $6.1 billion for the university. Prior to that, she held leadership roles at Case Western Reserve University, serving as associate dean of both the Weatherhead School of Management and the School of Law. A lawyer by training, she also served as Director of the Cleveland-Marshall College of Law at Cleveland State University.This was an amazing conversation! Sonia's passion for this work shines through as we explore the transformative power of museums, cultivating childhood curiosity, the Museum's rich history and legacy, her personal journey to leading a major cultural institution, the ambitious centennial project aimed at revitalizing the museum experience, the overall business of museums, and so much more.00:00:00 – The Magic of Museums and Childhood Curiosity  00:06:59 – Personal Reflections on Museums and Nature  00:09:07 – Sonia's Journey to the Museum Leadership  00:16:42 – Understanding the Cleveland Museum of Natural History  00:17:02 – The Museum's Legacy and Community Impact  00:19:56 – Honoring History While Embracing Change  00:25:50 – The Centennial Project and Its Vision  00:31:52 – The Business of Museums: Challenges and Opportunities  00:35:15 – Balancing Accessibility and Sustainability in Museums  00:36:28 – Creating Memorable Visitor Experiences  00:37:38 – Dinosaurs: The Gateway to Natural History  00:40:45 – The Role of Museums in Scientific Literacy  00:45:22 – Trust in Museums: A Reflection of Society  00:47:41 – Understanding the Value of Local Museums  00:50:04 – Personal Stories and the Impact of Museums  00:52:03 – The Future of Museums: Programming and Community Engagement  00:53:13 – Leadership Lessons in the Museum Sector  00:56:43 – Women in Leadership: Challenges and Opportunities  00:57:27 – Hidden Gem -----LINKS:https://www.cmnh.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonia-winner-2699123/-----SPONSOR:Roundstone InsuranceRoundstone Insurance is proud to sponsor Lay of The Land. Founder and CEO, Michael Schroeder, has committed full-year support for the podcast, recognizing its alignment with the company's passion for entrepreneurship, innovation, and community leadership.Headquartered in Rocky River, Ohio, Roundstone was founded in 2005 with a vision to deliver better healthcare outcomes at a more affordable cost. To bring that vision to life, the company pioneered the group medical captive model — a self-funded health insurance solution that provides small and mid-sized businesses with greater control and significant savings.Over the past two decades, Roundstone has grown rapidly, creating nearly 200 jobs in Northeast Ohio. The company works closely with employers and benefits advisors to navigate the complexities of commercial health insurance and build custom plans that prioritize employee well-being over shareholder returns. By focusing on aligned incentives and better health outcomes, Roundstone is helping businesses save thousands in Per Employee Per Year healthcare costs.Roundstone Insurance — Built for entrepreneurs. Backed by innovation. Committed to Cleveland.-----Stay up to date by signing up for Lay of The Land's weekly newsletter — sign up here.Past guests include Justin Bibb (Mayor of Cleveland), Pat Conway (Great Lakes Brewing), Steve Potash (OverDrive), Umberto P. Fedeli (The Fedeli Group), Lila Mills (Signal Cleveland), Stewart Kohl (The Riverside Company), Mitch Kroll (Findaway — Acquired by Spotify), and over 200 other Cleveland Entrepreneurs.Connect with Jeffrey Stern on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreypstern/Follow Lay of The Land on X @podlayofthelandhttps://www.jeffreys.page/

Art Bell - The Visitor Experience - Whitley Strieber

Travel Wrangell: Alaska's Hidden Gem and Rich Indigenous Culture.Welcome back to the Outdoor Adventure Series! Today, J.R Meek, the new Marketing and Community Development Coordinator for Travel Wrangell, and Ed Caum, the Tourism Coordinator for the Wrangell Cooperative Association, join us to share the wonders of Wrangell, Alaska.Situated in the breathtaking southeast region of Alaska, Wrangell is a hidden gem nestled in the heart of the Inside Passage. J.R and Ed reveal the rich history, culture, and unparalleled natural beauty that make Wrangell a must-visit destination for independent travelers and nature enthusiasts alike.Ed discusses the collaborative efforts of the local community, including the Tlingit and Haida tribes, to preserve and share their cultural heritage while welcoming visitors. With Wrangell's natural charm, personalized travel itineraries, and warmth of its residents, this episode promises to inspire your next adventure. So grab your virtual boots and prepare to discover why Wrangell, Alaska, is truly a place to travel outside the lines.DISCUSSIONWrangell and Tourism Overview: The geographical location of Wrangell in Alaska, its appeal to travelers, and its tourism dynamics.Cultural and Historical Aspects: Engaging with the Tlingit and Haida cultures through indigenous stories and totems.Visitor Experience and Tourism Practices: Preparing visitors for cultural engagement, an overview of Tourism Best Management Practices (TBMP), and balancing tourism with community respect and preservation.Visitor Access and Travel Options: Travel routes and accessibility to Wrangell, as well as the promotion and encouragement of independent travel experiences.Experiences to Have in Wrangell - Overview of fishing, hiking, and bear-watching activities, experiences with indigenous cultural performances, and exploring its iconic locations, like the Stikine River to the Anan Bear Wildlife Observatory.Food and Dining in WrangellCONNECT WITH TRAVEL WRANGELLVisit the Travel Wrangell website at https://travelwrangell.com/ for travel inspiration and to follow their social media: Facebook:  http://facebook.com/travelwrangellInstagram: http://instagram.com/travelwrangellYou Tube: http://youtube.com/travelwrangellLinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/travelwrangellNEXT STEPSVisit us at https://outdooradventureseries.com to like, comment, and share our episodes.KEYWORDSTravel Wrangell, Wrangell Cooperative Association, Tlingit, Haida, Anan Bear & Wildlife Observatory, Outdoor Adventure Series, Podcast#TravelWrangell #WrangellCooperativeAssociation #Tlingit #Haida #AnanBearAndWildlifeObservatory #OutdoorAdventures #Podcast My Favorite Podcast Tools: Production by Descript Hosting Buzzsprout Show Notes by Castmagic Website powered by Podpage Be a Podcast Guest by PodMatch

A pair of flimsy plastic headphones, a voice in your ears bombarding you with dates, names and historical periods, and a momentary pause at each work of art as you side-step the seemingly disinterested guided tour.If this sounds familiar, then museum facilitator and author Claire Bown is here to bring the museum alive for you! She reimagines the experience by making space for curiosity, conversation and participant-led interaction, turning passive presentations and fleeting glances into a treasure trove of stories, deep connection and meaning.Join Claire to slow down, welcome in a little more wondering, and discover what museum exploration can teach us about the art of participation.Find out about:The role of the museum environment in facilitating the experienceStrategies for engagement, from visual thinking to slow lookingWhy we must give space for observation, before jumping into explanationHow to achieve equal participation by re-designing group formationHow to acknowledge and invite in existing knowledge from the groupDon't miss the next episode: subscribe to the show with your favourite podcast player.Links:Watch the video recording of this episode on YouTube.Connect to Claire Bown:InstagramLinkedInPodcastNewsletterBookSupport the show✨✨✨Subscribe to our newsletter to receive a free 1-page summary of each upcoming episode directly to your inbox, or explore our eBooks featuring 50-episode compilations for even more facilitation insights. Find out more:https://workshops.work/podcast✨✨✨Did you know? You can search all episodes by keyword to find exactly what you need via our Buzzsprout page!

This episode examines the Missouri Botanical Garden's new Jack C. Taylor Visitor Center in St. Louis, winner of ENR's National 2024 Best of the Best Project Award in the cultural category. The LEED Gold project houses an event center, gift shop, meeting spaces, restaurant, and auditorium, and included the renovation of the historic Linnean House, the oldest continuously operated public greenhouse west of the Mississippi. Insight into the project is provided by guests Zach Carter of IMEG and Deniz Piskin, Vice President for Facilities and Construction at the Missouri Botanical Garden.  The decision to build the new center was largely driven by continual growth in the number of annual visitors; last year 1.3 million people visited the Garden, far more than the previous center could have comfortably accommodated. “The way the original visitor center was constructed, there were a lot of little bottlenecks in getting visitors through the center and into the garden,” Deniz says. The overall visitor experience was the other focus of the project. In addition to the vastly improved entrance and its accessibility, upon entering the new center, visitors are immersed in natural light as they view the exterior gardens through the facility's south wall of windows. An architectural lantern, or skylight, in the lobby includes a custom-designed scrim perforated in a pattern inspired by tree canopies. These and many other biophilic elements bring the outdoors in. “Everywhere you look, there's something related to nature,” says Deniz. Hidden from sight are the mechanical, electrical, plumbing, fire protection, and technology systems designed by IMEG. Key features include a 50,000-gallon rainwater collection cistern to provide water for the plants in the greenhouse (botanical garden staff consider rain “liquid gold”); displacement ventilation/natural stratification in the 50-foot tall lobby to improve occupant comfort; rooftop solar arrays; and a generator devoted to providing backup power to maintain the appropriate climate for the greenhouse, which features a variety of plants from the Mediterranean. Collaboration among all stakeholders was integral to the design-assist project, which was completed in multiple phases and included the construction of a temporary visitor center to keep the Garden open to visitors throughout construction. Deniz advises other organizations contemplating such a milestone project to “start with a clear understanding of what your goals and objectives are and check back throughout the design process to ensure you are not deviating from your goals. That's what this team did. We always kept in mind our visitors, always kept in mind the visitor experience.” See photos of the Missouri Botanical Garden's Jack C. Taylor Visitor Center and read the IMEG project case study. For further information and photographs, read this feature published by Metropolis.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 5th March 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: https://www.birminghammuseums.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zakmensah/Zak Mensah is the co-CEO of Birmingham Museums Trust. He is passionate about helping their service make an impact by focusing on the needs of over 1 million visitors. He is encouraging the organization to adopt a "digital by default" approach. Zak's mission is to ensure that their people, skills, and services remain adaptable to the rapidly changing landscape of the cultural sector. He is exploring new ways of doing things, including innovative business models, partnerships, and arts-related KPIs, while sharing as much as possible publicly.With a background in staff development and digital, Zak has been involved with the web since the late 90s and has seen its influence grow in all aspects of life. Prior to joining the arts sector in 2013, he helped small businesses, charities, Jisc, universities, and the Heritage Lottery Fund "do" digital well.Zak also runs his own consultancy to promote positive change and keep his skills sharp. His goal is to make a ruckus. https://www.vam.ac.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyakino-wittering/Amy Akino-Wittering is Head of Operations and Commercial at Young V&A, which opened July 2023 and recently won Art Fund Museum of the Year and Kids in Museums, Family Friendly Museum of the Year awardsResponsible for the general management of Young V&A she directly manages the visitor experience and teams, catering contract, volunteering and back of house operations, collaborating closely with central V&A colleagues to deliver operations and income for Young V&A. Previously Amy worked at V&A South Kensington as Senior Visitor Experience Manager-Sales and was on the opening project team leading on visitor experience and retail at Pitzhanger Manor & Gallery.She started her career at Imperial War Museums working across sites from assistant to management roles in Retail and Admissions and systems management.  https://www.hampshireculture.org.uk/​​https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-sapwell-b3b2a281/Paul Sapwell has been Chief Executive at independent arts and culture charity Hampshire Cultural Trust since 2018, having joined the trust in 2016 as Chief Operating Officer following an early career primarily in hospitality and leisure. Paul is a passionate believer in the transformative power that cultural experiences can have on the wellbeing of individuals and communities, and a prominent advocate for the role of commercial growth, underpinned by a flexible, entrepreneurial team culture, in sustaining museum and arts organisations. Transcription: Paul Marden: The museums and culture sector are facing unprecedented headwinds. Static or reducing funding from local government, fewer grants from trusts and foundations, all while dealing with increased people costs. The continued headwinds from cost of living crisis. But this sector continues to deliver more with less and support the cultural life of our country. Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden and in today's episode recorded the Science Museum at the Association of Cultural Enterprises View from the Top event. I'm joined by Amy Akino-Wittering, Head of Operations and Commercial at Young V&A. Zak Mensah, Co CEO of Birmingham Museums Trust, and Paul Sapwell, CEO of Hampshire Cultural Trust. Paul Marden: And we're going to talk about how the cultural sector can innovate in order to thrive. Anyone that's listened to the podcast before will know. And this is the nervous bit. Paul Marden: We always start with an icebreaker question which my lovely guests victims have not been prepared for. So, Zak, I'm afraid you go first, my friends. So if you were a cartoon character, which cartoon character would you be? Zak Mensah: That's easy. I think I would be the thing that gets chased by the. Is it the wild Cody who runs around all his home? But I'd be the. What's the little, the stupid Roadrunner. Yeah, so I would be Roadrunner because you constantly are literally running 100 miles an hour and then a giant piano lands on you at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon, but you respawn on the Monday and you start all over again. Pretty much feels like me. Paul Marden: I love that. I love that. Amy, you're next. Let's think of all of the inventions over the last hundred years that were offered. Flying cars, those sorts of things. What is the one thing were promised that you really miss and think we really need in our lives? Amy Akino-Wittering: I think a Time Turner, which is basically from Harry Potter. Basically you can just go and do things like six. They do six days all at once. Paul Marden: You can be Hermione if you've got a Time Turner. Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, great. Paul Marden: Excellent. I love that, Amy. Thank you. Paul. Paul Sapwell: You said these were going to be under no pressure. I wouldn't have liked. I wouldn't have liked either of those. Paul Marden: Oh, well, you're not going to like this one then. I'm sorry, mate, I'm, I, I live in Hampshire. Paul runs Hampshire Cultural Trust. Paul. Paul Sapwell:  Oh, even better. Paul Marden: Saints or Pompey? Paul Sapwell:  Oh, blimey. Okay, well that's, I'm an Arsenal fan. Paul Marden: So there we go. Paul Sapwell: I couldn't possibly answer Saints or Pompey? I mean, we border both. So I would just be in so much trouble if I pick one or the other. So I can. I've got to get out. Paul Marden: Are you dodging that one? Paul Sapwell: Yeah. I thought you might watch Arsenal regularly. Paul Marden: I thought you might. So we are going to start with a question from somebody from the audience, a young man named Gordon. Apparently he might be a millennial. And he says, After 15 years of turmoil, financial crash, austerity, Brexit, Covid, we face continuing cost of living issues, rising national insurance and a Trump presidency. Are we doomed in 2025? Or to put it slightly better, what are the biggest risks for your organisation and the wider sector, and what are you each doing to thrive in the year ahead? And I'm going to start with you, Paul. Paul Sapwell: That's an easy question, isn't it? Paul Marden: You can thank young Gordon. Paul Sapwell: Brilliant Gordon, Yeah. I mean, I think 2025 is going to be an incredibly tricky year, but to sort of look further than that. I'm certainly an optimist, but I think we're in a time of transition, particularly in terms of our sector, in the cultural sector, in terms of what's going to fund us and what's going to sustain us going forward. You know, I think the years of the level. I think a lot of the speakers have touched on it, but the years of the level of public sector funding is, whatever happens with this government and next is going to be going down and we just have to face that. I run an organisation which we started out in 2019. We're about 85% publicly funded. Now we're 34% publicly funded with the same turnover, I hasten to add. Paul Sapwell: And so we've made a good go of it, but I think the headwinds this year are really difficult. That said, I think that we have to be confident investing for the longer term and particularly, obviously, in this conference in areas of commercial growth. I think that, okay, the growth projections have been downgraded. I am confident that we will, as the decade continues, move into a period of growth. And we've got to be looking at the long term rather than the short term. The trick is, of course, not running out of money in the short term. And that's a really difficult place to be. Paul Marden: In the water, just here. Paul Sapwell: I don't have an easy answer to that, but I think fundamentally, you've got to give the customer what they want and the customer is still there. Paul Sapwell: And we have a fantastic product. But we've got to certainly pivot much further towards what customers want commercially, in my view, than putting as much emphasis as probably we did 10 years ago on trying to find more and more public funding, because I think that's going down. Paul Marden: Zak, have you got any thoughts on that? Zak Mensah: Yeah, I mean, in terms of money, just generally people want to back winners. So I think one of the difficult things that internally we can all say it's doom and gloom, because it does feel that doom and gloom. There are definitely days, weeks and months. I think it's right to say that it's doom and gloom. Like you can be optimist but still understand it's difficult time. And I think a lot of our, you know, a lot of our workforces certainly feel that, it can feel very difficult because every year they ask, will they have their job? Right. And that's a really fair question to ask. And we sometimes as leaders kind of say, “Oh, if we can get through the next two years, but two years for normal staff are sometimes a very long time to try and say, “You or may have not have a job to make life through.”Zak Mensah: So I think that's something I always think back in back of my mind. I think a lot of the difficulties, whichever flavour of government is about understanding how to be more savvy, about understanding the trends, about things that are fundable. Because there are lots of things that were funded 10, 20 years ago, that money has dried up. And so we've all got to think about, for example, a lot of people now looking at, well, being a speaker this afternoon was talking about more on EDI, for example, and how younger people certainly are interested in having more of a purpose driven business. Is how for us, we can make sure we're focused on the, what I was called, the user need. So the needs that people use us. Zak Mensah: Because if you can concentrate and focus on what they want, whether it be money, otherwise that ultimately does lead to a business model. Because there's no point saying just because museums and galleries have been around for 100 to 200 years, they have an absolute right to exist. The only way they exist is because every decade or whatever there's another crisis comes along and a group of people, including ourselves here, live in this room, but also listening to this make it happen. Like, we've got to convince councillors, government, businesses to be part of that journey. Because the funny thing I will say is that, you know, at Birmingham Museums, the art gallery was founded in 1885 by industry people. It was industry people that founded it. It was industry people who wanted the city to have great arts. Zak Mensah: And so now we're turning back to those same people and saying, "We need you to now step up and contribute." It doesn't always have to be money. It could be in kind support, could be advocacy. That's the kind of thing that we need to do as leaders right now, in addition to the normal making the money work and stretch as far as we can. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Amy, what are you doing at Young V&A to thrive in the year ahead and face some of these challenges? Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, absolutely. So we've now been open for just over two years, so I feel kind of, well, coming up to two years. And so I feel we're kind of in that stage where we kind of opened and sort of just try to make sure that we are operationally savvy. And last year was very much about refining that. And I think this year is very much about what's next and how can we build upon kind of success of opening, looking at ways in which we can innovate through doing new kind of commercial opportunities, but also how can we develop our audiences. And as well as part of kind of the wider V&A, we've got two more sites opening as well. Amy Akino-Wittering: So how as an organisation are we going to work together to kind of be in this new family of sites and work together through there? So I think for us in the kind of coming year is all about, what's next? We've opened the door. We started with a really strong foundation and a really strong vision, but then how can we keep on innovating and keep iterating that to improve? Paul Marden: Excellent. I'm going touch on stuff that Lewis talked about a minute ago. One of his reflections I really liked was thinking about how do we create a space for colleagues to engage with some of these really important issues that have been on the PowerPoints. Zak, maybe you could start. What do you think your organisation can do to act as bottom up catalyst for change as opposed to trying to drive these changes from the top down? Zak Mensah: I think the first thing is about understanding that there are a lot of people who do want to be able to voice their hopes and fears around a whole host of subjects, whether it be specifically around, if you're ethnic minority, about your fear of living in the UK, if you have climate, lots of important subjects people want to talk about. You know, I think certainly internally, and I'll be very clear about this, I think there's a very different view sometimes about the difference between internal and the external voice of the organisation. So what we see a lot of is staff individually believe that as a service there are lots of things we could and should be talking about publicly that may or may not directly align with how as a leader we see it. Zak Mensah: So, you know, there are lots of fights we do get into. We can't get into every single fight. And sometimes there's a real fine balance around what we decide to go for. So if you take during Black Lives Matter example, me and Sarah Shropshire started in November 2020, there was an expectation that immediately we would be like the spokesperson for the whole museum sector about black and brown issues. And like, it's really hard to say, actually. I am not speaking on behalf of every single person in the whole country. I do take it seriously and we set up internally ways people to talk about it, but didn't always feel appropriate. Zak Mensah: And I'll give another example is around, for example, war. Any one time there's something like 15 global conflicts happening and, you know, we talk and go backwards and forwards internally sometimes about, you know, do we talk about them publicly? If we talk about them internally, how we talk about them, do we single one out or do we talk about them all? Are they equal? How do you equally talk about things are very horrific for a number of people?Zak Mensah: And knowing that we've got staff from dozens of countries who all have different views on how their homeland or area they're interested in is impacted. Things are very horrific for a number of people. But I do think that there's always. It's always really tricky because the best conversations and the best conversations need care and a lot of the conversations happen in like, pockets that we have no control over. Zak Mensah: And so it's again, how do you set an environment as a leader that is allowing the bottom up to do their own thing, but in a way that isn't going to be detrimental to the whole workforce? Because I think it is. Again, I mentioned it's been. It's really tricky and that's the simple truth. It is no easy answer to these things because if it was easy, we'd all solved it. Yeah. But acknowledging it there, it's the elephant in the room, I think is really important and growing to be more and more important for us as leaders. Paul Marden: I think Lewis was saying it's really important to know where you stand on issues and it is okay for you to have a stance on issues that says, I'm not going to make a stand on this one issue. I thought that was a really interesting perspective. Imy's talk. I think were talking a lot about the journey of Titanic Belfast, which I love as a museum, to go to a museum that emotionally moved me as much with so very few actual artefacts. I just think it's an amazing storytelling experience. But you talked a little bit about the team and what you do to be able to nurture that team. And one of the things that we're talking about is trying to get 110% out of everybody getting to more with less, getting them to innovate. Paul Marden: How do you balance all of those challenges and not break the people and maintain a 98% retention rate like Titanic does? Paul? Paul Sapwell: Well, maintaining a 98 retention rate, I think fairly unprecedented and huge congratulations. I mean, I think it follows on a bit from what Zak was saying, actually. You know, it's tough, isn't it, being leaders in terms of whether you're making that kind of external message or whether you've got a tough internal message. I mean, I've always taken a stance that you've got to be as transparent as you possibly can be and people will go a long way with you if it doesn't appear that things are being taken in a dark room somewhere. And I think for us, what we've tried to do is to put in the mechanisms for that to happen. I've been really fortunate to work with a fantastic people director, Hampshire Cultural Trust. Paul Sapwell: One of the first things, I think you've also got to make a stance, by the way, on people being important. One of the first things I did as CEO was say we need a people director. It's quite rare in the heritage sector. I came from hospitality, it was the norm. It's an odd thing that people and HR doesn't always sit at the top table. Sometimes it's sort of delegated down in operations or even finance. So I think that's really important and we needed a strategy and part of that is putting in place a lot of the stuff that you talked about of the Titanic, which I think is really impressive. And we're somewhere on that journey, but not quite as far along, but proper employee forums where you listen. Paul Sapwell: I meet with an employee elected employee forum quarterly and talk to them about all issues with nothing off the table. We also have an EDI group with a mix, again, senior leadership on there talking about these issues. And I think that, you know, if there was one thing I would say it's, you're not always going to be able to give easy answers, are you? This year we're being hit with an enormous national insurance hit to the staff costs and that is going to affect pay. I can't pretend that it isn't. And if we're going to not run out of money in the next few years, we're going to have to give less of a pay increase this year than we would like to. Paul Sapwell: But we've been talking about that openly since it hit and I hope that our team will go, will understand, but obviously that doesn't make it, make it easy. And I think the same is true with the issues that you're talking about. You can't take a stance on every single issue that comes through each of these forums every quarter, but you have a conversation about it. And I think that's the most important bit for me. Paul Marden: Amy, I'm going to segue wide away from today's talks. Regular listeners will know that I'm a Trustee of Kids in Museums and I was chatting with my fellow trustees about today's event and we wondered, given the impact of the cultural sector, on the impact that it has on the lives of young people and how there are so many challenges at the moment for disadvantaged young people to engage in the sector. You know, we all know that post Covid, many schools have cut their school visits into museums and galleries. I pick you because Young V&A was the winner of Kids in Museums Family Friendly Awards last year. So let's just start with you and talk about what are the innovative things that you've done to break down barriers to encourage children and families to engage in the museum. Amy Akino-Wittering: Yes, of course. So Young V&A when we kind of opened its entire purpose is about engaging children. It's all about kind of that creative confidence in Generation Alpha. And so the whole museum has been designed with and for young people. So its target audience is between naught to 14 year olds. We spoke with over 22,000 young people in the development of the museum to hear what do they want from it. I think there's a survey which said that 40% of children thought that museums were boring and it weren't places for them. So, well, what can we do as we've got this opportunity to redevelop, to make sure that it is a place that people want to go and enjoy and be themselves. Amy Akino-Wittering: And so that was kind of like the North Star in terms of what every kind of decision in the kind of opening and making and running of Young V&A is really centred around this as well. And so it goes from the aesthetic in terms of the height of things, the bright colours from this swirling staircase that we have at Young V&A, which came from an idea that someone wanted to helter skelter in the space to the tone of voice in our interpretation and also how the objects are displayed. We've got objects from across the V&A, we've got over 2,000 objects. But it's not just the museum as was the Museum of Childhood collection, it's from across all of the different departments of the V&A. And it's been curated with that kind of child centred and child focused way. Amy Akino-Wittering: Co design is also a really kind of core part of it as well. So we kind of co designed with local audiences and children for various design displays and also co curation. So each gallery was co curated between the learning team and the curatorial team as well. And then obviously we've kind of got to actually open the building and have a team to deliver that visitor experience. And again, that is all very much fed through that audience lens. And so we looked at our structures of, you know, what types of people do we want in the space? You know, our core audience are children. We need people who want to engage with that audience. It's a very specific kind of audience, but also we are a hyper local organisation as well and so how can we encourage applicants from the local boroughs? Amy Akino-Wittering: So we drove a very inclusive recruitment process where we basically did a behaviour led process for recruitment, we redid all the job descriptions, went out into our local community, did workshops and CV surgeries and basically just made it as easy as possible for people to apply and get interview. And the kind of core things that were looking at was behaviours. We can teach people how to go on a till or to learn how to do fire evacuations, but actually it's much harder to get people because that's what the job is. You know, the majority, you know, all your visitors will come to a touch point with the front of house team. They are your most important ambassadors. Amy Akino-Wittering: So we need to make sure that we've got the best kind of resources and time and structure in place to support them, to give the best possible experience that we can. So we spent a lot of time doing that. We spent a lot of time as well working Kids in Museums come in and do training about specific family engagement training as well, which has been really beneficial. And then also we really believe that, you know, the customer experience, the visitor experience is directly impacted by the employee experience. You can't expect the team to deliver this amazing, joyful visitor experience if actually they're pretty miserable behind the scenes. So how can we make sure that the structures that we have and the environment that we have is reflective of how we want them to be on the floor as well? Amy Akino-Wittering: So we make sure that we have forums to make sure that, you know, people can have their say. We make sure. So we did this team charter, which was this sort of collaborative effort to see, like, how do you want to feel in the workplace, but also how do you want your visitors to feel? And actually, it was all very similar in terms of the outcomes that came from that kind of exercise. And it's these kind of agreement that we have together to how we're going to work together and those kind of things which we do to ensure. It's that kind of frequent communication and making sure that we're on the same page and it kind of brings that joy which then comes out to the visitors. Amy Akino-Wittering: And that is kind of I think all those things together has all really helped in terms of when someone comes into the space, children, they're front and centre. They really feel like it's a place for them and they've got kind of people around them which really get them and that they will help facilitate their curiosity and things like that. So that's what we've done. Paul Marden: Amazing. Paul, have you got some thoughts? Paul Sapwell: Yeah. I love what you're saying about the visitor. The visitor services guys on the front desk. I mean, they are the most important people, essentially, and that's why I was nodding vigorously. I think that's part of what I was talking about earlier in terms of pivot into more of a commercial view, because a commercial company completely relies on their customer who comes in. And I think my experience of being in an organisation that's moved out of being run predominantly by a council to one that's independent now was, I've got to be honest, at the start, that wasn't how it felt. Paul Sapwell: And actually you could produce big lists of visitor figures, but ultimately, if they went up or down, it didn't really matter because the funding was going to stay the same, whatever, and there would be other metrics, and I think that's the big shift in mentality, because if you don't give the customer what they want, and that means really valuing people on your front line. And, you know, we've had conversations at the Museum Association about it, about how there's almost been that divide in museums between the people who talk to your customers and the museum staff. And I think that's a really. Or people who would see themselves doing proper museum work. And I think that, you know, that's something we've got to. We're moving in the right direction, but we've got to move quicker. Paul Marden: All of our best memories, aren't they, of going to these places are not necessarily about the amazing artefacts, it's the stories that your team tell people when they interact with them. You feel so happy as a result of it. I think of some amazing experiences. Zak, have you got any thoughts on this? Innovative ways in which we make museums family friendly, how we encourage make them more children friendly? Zak Mensah: Well, the first thing is it's something like 50% of people have children. And so knowing that is in the UK is a thing. Just knowing that as a fact. Right. Means that thinking then about families who will come, but also the staff workforce. Because again, like, you know, if your staff, you're your biggest advocates we just talked about is making it friendly for people to have children in the workforce means that most people recommend it and word of mouth is the biggest way that you can influence people and then from that when people come. So we've got nine venues overall pre pandemic, have a million visitors a year. Zak Mensah: We say we're family friendly, but I've got two young children and quite often the experience, not just my place, but other places doesn't actually say match up with that because like just saying to a seven year old, you must love art, doesn't really work, right, if it's Blue. Paul Marden: Can't tell them. You can't just make them like, yeah. Zak Mensah: I can't tell anything because anyone in my family anything. If you convince about bluey=, then you've got another chance. But you know, you've got to think about actually what is their experience going to be. So, you know, have you got picnic area? Have you got toilets? Lots of toilets. Do you allow your staff, for example, in previous roles? We allow people, if they want to do potty training, they could do potty training in the gallery. Because the reality was if they didn't use the potty that they had in their bag, it was going somewhere else. And so I remember watching in horror as someone literally tried to scoop up a child and move their parent out of a gallery to start to go to the toilet. Zak Mensah: And I was like, there was no way they were going to make it out that door. I would love to have that CCTV footage because I bet that was quite interesting. But, you know, it sounds, you know, some sort of flippant and fun. Zak Mensah: But that's the little thing because like all those little things about making it, you know, enjoyable. Because if you can make it enjoyable for the. For the parent or the guardian, you can make it fun for the, you know, for the kids. You know, you have to have sharp crayons and pencils. Whatever it is, like always things that's really kids don't want much. That's the little thing because like all those little things about making it, you know, enjoyable. Right. Like, if you can give them almost that version of experience to make people think it's good. Because I think we sometimes dissociate the child's experience with the fact they're with someone else. So actually you've got to make it good for the people that they're with. And quite often people do it, you know, who take. Zak Mensah: They might take the extended family. So they'll say like, you know, I'll take my niece or whatever, I'm there. And they don't usually actually have to have the children. So sometimes they need help as well, you know, to make sure the experience. Paul Marden: Extra needs to be able to solve the kids' problems. Zak Mensah: Absolutely. So for me it's about making it that friendly from that perspective. So often with school trips, for example, it's how can you make the school trips fun? Because I see quite a lot of kids on school trips that they sort of being marched through and forced to go. So then they're less likely to recommend it to their parents and their parents just like to come. So for me, it's kind of like trying to use that learning visit which often people's first. Most people tell me, I've been to museum as a child and they usually get towards school age, secondary school, and they don't go anymore. Paul Marden: Yes. Zak Mensah: So it's like, how do we make sure that. I don't think as a sector where family friendly enough, other than those people who already are super engaged, they make the kids have fun. I'm probably talking about my trauma now. Paul Marden: Let's return today's speakers. Let's just talk a little bit about Mike's discussion of using behavioural models to influence buying decisions. Yeah. What are the biggest behavioural barriers that you see within your organisation? In terms of visitor experience, from kind of awareness through to decision making, what could you do? What could you change? Zak Mensah: So the first obvious one is a lot of people are terrified of being in spaces because they're not sure how to behave. There's this weird secret code that doesn't. It's not actually written down anywhere that people think the museum experience has got to be quiet, that it's got to be. That you've got to know what you're looking at. It can't just be fun. And actually having. Just having fun is a really important part of what you want to do. So for us, I think the problem is, as well as once you work in the sector, those barriers are invisible because you just work there. You feel comfortable now coming. Yeah. And so the behaviour part is super interesting. And so, for example, it's a phrase I sometimes use around, like. Zak Mensah: It's around this idea of, like, “People like us do things like this”, which I stole from Seth Godin. So, you know, what we did, for example, is w e now don't have staff uniform because we've got quite a diverse. We're dividing diversity in Birmingham and we want people to feel comfortable and recognise people outside the building who then might be going, like, sure, I might. Hoodies, for example. If you wear a hoodie, you might own. The museum's. Not for me, the museums for other people who wear suits, etc. So actually, if they see staffing. Yeah, if they see staff in hoodies or whatever, in hijabs or niqab, whichever outfit they want to wear, then that is a signal about those people are welcome. Zak Mensah: That's one example where that idea came from the team about how we can show and tell and do what we say we're going to do, rather than just saying, “Oh, but we're really friendly museums are great and come in.” Because actually they are intimidating from the outside. They're often intimidating intellectually. Paul Marden: Yep. Zak Mensah: The train, the media, all the time is being really high brow all the time. So it's like actually we. We have to find ways to accept that those barriers exist. And that often means finding people who don't use you to actually tell you that. And we've just finished a citizen's jury, for example, which had almost 30 people who are representative of the city come in and 80% of them at the first meeting said they didn't think the museum is relevant to them. Those are ordinary people who live in the city who. That's 80% of those people. Four in five people don't think the museum is relevant for them, even though we know that we could make it relevant to them. And that was a really sad, shocking figure, but also is motivating. Zak Mensah: And I think our job, you know, as leaders is how do we help people feel inclusive, to be an inclusive space and then like. And go for it. Paul Marden: Excellent. Thank you, Amy. Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, I think a lot of what we have done as well is to try and go out of our four walls of Young V&A as well. So we do a lot of kind of community engagement as well through kind of the learning team as well as for volunteering programme. Like we rocked up at stores at Whitechapel Market and kind of saying, “This is our kind of programme”, just chatting with people where they haven't heard of Young V&A even though it's down the road. And so it's like, how can we, yeah, kind of go out and about and also kind of advocate across as well. And then also it's like when people do kind of take that step to actually go onto our site and then come into the building making sure that the visitor experience is as inclusive, as welcoming as possible. Similar. Amy Akino-Wittering: We also just have aprons and they can wear whatever they want underneath and just again, so as people feel relaxed and they feel when our audiences come in, they say, oh yeah, no, that's something that I might wear. Or you know, they just feel more kind of settled and at home. So that's something that's really important that we kind of do as well. Paul Marden: Lovely, Paul. Paul Sapwell: The biggest challenge for us, I mean being a smaller organisation and a brand that isn't known. As well as it could be, I think our biggest challenge now is that customer journey from online through to what you get when you arrive and we're not consistent enough. And I know we'd all talk about this forever but you know, big commercial organisations do this really well. You know, you're going to sell a ticket within a couple of clicks from a social media piece, you're going to get a follow up email that looks exciting and you know, then your product is either going to arrive or you're going to arrive at it and it will be like you thought you were buying. And I'm not sure that we always do that. Paul Sapwell: I've got to be honest and I think to do that you've got to put a lot of investment in it. And that's what we're part of the strategy that we've launched, we launched back in November is about that. Paul Sapwell: And again, that comes back to, you know, commercial mindsets that matters. It matters that we put the right image in whatever way that is to the right customer who we're trying to attract. We've got to understand those customers better and then make sure that's, that's seamless. And, you know, we run 20 venues. They're really different. We've got everything from the Great Hall, Mediaeval Hall in Winchester, which is full of people on from travel trade have come off of cruises and things. And then we've got Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, which is a sort of family living history museum. Paul Sapwell: They don't get any international tourists. So having a really limited pot of marketing to be able to go all these sort of areas is really difficult. But I think that would be the challenge. But thinking about it holistically, really, because it's the same person who clicks on the social media ad to the person who ends up arriving in your venue. And that needs to be really consistent. Yeah, it sounds like cash is the barrier. We're going to try and work with it. But that's the important bit for me. Paul Marden: I'm grinning like the village idiot because this is what I advocate all the time. I'm looking at my marketing friends in the audience who would also share. Share your thoughts on this. We know from the Rubber Cheese survey that it's eight to 10 steps it takes people to checkout. I tried to buy tickets for an aquarium last year and they made me enter a password along with the names and addresses of everybody that was joining me and then told me off three times for getting the password wrong in the checkout process. I had to be really to buy those tickets and. Paul Sapwell: Well, yeah, you touch on. Yeah. I mean, we could have a whole conversation, but no, I mean, we love a complicated ticketing system in the cultural sector, don't we? I mean, with all the right intentions. I mean, even the list in some places of different concessions. I mean, you don't want to go. I think I'm that or I'm that. You know, and it's done with the right intention. But it's an enormous barrier. Paul Marden: Yeah, completely. Paul Sapwell: And you know, we make things so complex and I don't have the fix, but I know we've got to fix it. And that means putting sort of. Again, learn from companies who do this really well rather than. Yeah. Looking for ideas ourselves. Lots of people do it really well out there. That's what we got to do. Paul Marden: Thinking of lots of my team who might think that this is something somebody should solve. Zak Mensah: The fix is simple, isn't it? Because you just said then that there are other people doing it well. What we're not really good at artists actually copying people. Zak Mensah: Like just copy someone else who's done it better than us. It's really. It really does annoy me. Let's just say that what always happens is that we make decisions by committee, don't we? So it would have been two steps, but then someone from marketing said, but you've got to have a newsletter. And someone from another team would say, “You've got to also ask for this. And then you've got to do this. Then you've got to try and get the kids to come for school trip.” Before you know it, people mean well and they've made it really complicated. I think sometimes it's like, actually, let's just do the simplest thing. Let's do all the hard work to remove those barriers and then we can try and flog them stuff when they get there. Paul Marden: So friend of mine, Andy talks a lot about you don't go to a fine dining restaurant and walk up to the maitre d and he says to you, “Would you like a table, by the way, are you going to have dessert? And would you like a coffee? And what are you going to have for your starter main course and dessert? Oh, right, I'll take you to your table.” You have a conversation with people and you lead them and you don't try and pack everything into the very first time you ever talk to the potential client. Zak Mensah: Which is why Greg's does so well. Paul Marden: Yeah, look guys, I could carry on about this conversation, but we are the barrier to everybody getting to their drinks and nibbles and so we've got. Paul Sapwell: Including us. Paul Marden: I know, sorry. We've got a couple of things that I must cover. So we always ask our guests for a book recommendation. It can be a novel, it can be work related. So Zak, would you like to go first with yours? Zak Mensah: Yeah. Turn the ship around! I think it's David Marquet. It's a book about a nuclear submarine commander who basically realises all these stupid rules. And so he just said to everyone, just tell me you intend to. So say to him, I intend to turn the ship left, I intend to take holiday, etc, because he realised that there were so many stupid rules and I think museum will have loads of stupid rules. It's a really good thing. And I know most of you won't read the book because most people say, “Yeah, I'll read it. They don't read it.” There's a 10 minute YouTube video. Surely you can spend 10 minutes of time if you can't be bothered to do that. There is literally a 30 second Wikipedia article about it. But please don't do it. Paul Marden: Zak feels very strongly about this. Paul, your book recommendation, please. Paul Sapwell: Well, last year I read Wild Swans by Jung Chang and I'm trying to find a way of getting into a business conversation. I think there's so much that comes out of that book, but I think, yeah, striving for Utopia is often, you know, the book. Right. Most people in terms of living under communist China and we know we could go on about utopian things that haven't worked, but I think there's, for this conversation, that's perhaps where we need to think, you know, going forward here. There isn't a sort of utopian way that things should be done for our sector. There is, you know, we're making our way here and yeah. Obviously it's a fantastic book. Paul Marden: Excellent. Thank you, Paul. Amy, your recommendation? Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, so mine isn't linked to like professional development at all. Mine. Paul Marden: Well, you did have one. Amy Akino-Wittering: Well, I did have one and you were like, no, just go for your favourite one. So I was like, Persuasion by Jane Austen. It's a classic. Paul Marden: We've got, we've got big anniversary at the moment, haven't we? In Chawton where Jane Austen lived has got big thing about 200 years, 250 years? Amy Akino-Wittering: Celebration for the whole year. So I'm gonna go in. Paul Sapwell: Yeah, everyone's trying to get in on this, by the way. I just have to put this out there. You know, she was born in Hampshire. Paul Marden: I know. Paul Sapwell: Born in Hampshire, actually. Born Basingstoke. Paul Marden: I know.Paul Sapwell: Yes. Paul Marden: There's a lot of celebrations for Jane this year. Paul Sapwell: Yeah, everyone's trying. I've seen so many angles for her. Oh, she was here and she went to the toilet. Fair enough. I mean, it's a big celebration. Paul Marden: If you'd like a copy of the book or any of these books, head over to Bluesky and like and repost the show announcement saying, I want Zak, Paul or Amy's book. And the first person to do that will get the book sent to them. Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this episode, then please leave us a five star review. It really does help more people to find us and remember to follow us on Bluesky , X or Instagram for your chance to win the book. Thank you very much, everybody. Paul Sapwell: Thank you. Amy Akino-Wittering: Thank you. The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Can a small zoo in Michigan redefine the zoo experience and make a global impact? In this episode of Total Michigan, host Cliff DuVernois sits down with Jeremiah Tietz, the passionate director of Wilderness Trails Zoo. They delve into the zoo's interactive initiatives, conservation efforts, and Jeremiah's unique journey that led him back to Michigan. Discover how this sanctuary near Frankenmuth is creating immersive experiences for its visitors while contributing to worldwide conservation efforts. - Initiatives to Add More Public Interaction: Jeremiah emphasizes the zoo's focus on creating hands-on, memorable experiences for visitors, including a new rainforest building. - Global Conservation Efforts: Wilderness Trails Zoo engages in global species survival plans and has participated in success stories of reintroducing endangered species into the wild. - Jeremiah's Journey and Vision: From growing up with a passion for wildlife sparked at the Phoenix Zoo to becoming a Michigan-based director, Jeremiah aims to create a family-friendly destination that educates and inspires future generations.Links:Wilderness Trails Zoo Website: https://wildernesstrailszoo.org/Address:11721 Gera Rd, Birch Run, MI 48415Subscribe to our Email Newsletter: https://totalmichigan.com/join/Find us on Facebook: https://facebook.com/totalmichiganWatch on YouTube: https://youtube.com/@totalmichiganShow Notes:00:00 Introduction and New Initiatives01:14 Meet Jeremiah Tietz01:57 Wilderness Trail Zoo's Mission03:22 Zoo's Size and Scope03:59 Jeremiah's Background and Passion06:22 Veterinary Medicine and Zoo Career12:26 Conservation Efforts and Global Impact15:02 Challenges and Human Impact16:54 Returning to Wilderness Trail Zoo18:47 Future Plans and New Additions22:03 Reptile Rescue and Community Involvement24:21 Collaborative Efforts and Animal Care26:48 Visitor Experience and Goals28:17 How to Get Involved

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 19th February 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: https://www.yorkmaze.com/Tom Pearcy, Chairman of NFAN and Controller of Fun at York MazeTom is the "corntroller of fun" at York maze, the UK's most popular corn based attraction. Tom diversified from farming in 2001 with a small corn maze, and the business has quite literally grown year on year. York maze now has over 20 corn themed rides, shows and attractions. Tom was recently appointed chairman of the national farm attractions network, the representative body for the UK's farm attraction sector.   https://www.escapadegroup.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-bull-5907968/Helen Bull - Chief Executive Officer - The Escapade Group Ltd https://www.tulleysfarm.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartbeare/Stuart Beare, CEO, Tully's Entertainment GroupStuart has developed Tulleys Farm into one of the UK's best known seasonal attraction venues and operators. The Tulleys Farm Partnership includes retail, catering and venue hire.The Tulleys Productions arm has been developed from the operational and marketing experience in the UK Halloween, Haunted and Scare attractions sector, it comprises of three key companies. Stuart's company Screams Attractions Ltd focuses on overall event concepts, operational systems, mentoring, business planning and scare attraction design. Scream Park entertainments Ltd supports and advises on scare actor recruitment, training and management. FunFear Ltd design and install scare attraction technical solutions, from lighting, power, attraction safety through to sound.Stuart has spoken widely at conferences and seminars in the US, Canada and the UK on Agritainment, Agri-Tourism and seasonal attractions, especially focused on the UK Scare attractions industry and the Tulleys Farm Halloween Shocktober Fest event. https://www.innovativeleisure.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/phil-pickersgill-5a988010/Phil Pickersgill, MD, Innovative LeisurePhil has over 35 years' experience in the leisure and attractions industry and has plenty left to contribute!With a background in engineering coupled with his in depth knowledge of the industry, he founded Innovative Leisure with a vision to introduce new, adventure related products, from around the world to the UK and European markets.Phil plays an active role in a number of the trade associations that steer the leisure industry for example: as a Chair of Trade Members (from Jan 2023) and part of the BALPPA Management Committee (British Association of Leisure Parks, Piers and Attractions) for over 14 years (and a past member of the NFAN Management Committee (National Farm Attractions Network).Through these groups, and his extensive industry network, he is usually very close to the latest developments, issues and trends in the market. https://www.roarr.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-adam-goymour-5248832a/Adam Goymour, MD, Roarr! is one of our previous guests on the podcast.Check out his previous episode back in 2020 with Kelly Molson.https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/adam-goymour Adam proudly involved in my family owner/operator portfolio of businesses. Which owns and operates1. The leading day visitor attraction in Norfolk (ROARR!) West of Norwich, where it also hosts (PrimEvil) - Norfolks largest scare experience event. (UK's Best Scream Park

The Stowe Center for Literary Activism in Hartford is rethinking how they present the complex legacy of author Harriet Beecher Stowe and her best known work, Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Today, Erika Slocumb, Director of Interpretation and Visitor Experience at the Stowe Center joins us to talk about the changes this local museum is making to better showcase literary activism of the past, and how it influences the future. We’ll also hear from Possible Futures, an independent bookstore and neighborhood bookspace in New Haven. We learn about their efforts to promote works by diverse authors, and using books to promote change. GUESTS: Erika Slocumb: Director of Interpretation and Visitor Experience at the Stowe Center for Literary Activism in Hartford Grégory Pierrot: Associate Professor at the English Department at the University of Connecticut Lauren Anderson: founder and bookseller at Possible Futures independent bookstore in New Haven Support the show: http://wnpr.org/donateSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Latest Utah Avalanche Center forecast, top Sundance official says film festival is still evaluating potential move, Summit County Council Member Megan McKenna recaps Wednesday's council meeting, Park City Board of Education Members Meredith Reed and Nick Hill discuss this week's school board meeting, Swaner EcoCenter Director of Visitor Experience and Exhibits Hunter Klingensmith shares details about the "Amazing Butterflies" exhibit and other Swaner happenings and Park City School District says all children are welcome regardless of immigration status.

Looking for daily inspiration?  Get a quote from the top leaders in the industry in your inbox every morning.   The future of fun begins at IAAPA FEC Summit, January 19–21, 2025, in New Orleans, Louisiana. Join FEC and LBE professionals for an immersive experience packed with strategic insights, networking, and behind-the-scenes EDUTours of unique local facilities. Learn how to make your FEC stand out a crowded market and explore the latest trends designed to elevate your business. Build valuable connections and leave inspired with actionable strategies for success. Secure your spot today!   David Rosenberg is the Executive Vice President, Growth and Experience, for SSA Ventures. SSA Ventures, a division of SSA Group, focuses on enhancing visitor experiences, integrating sustainability practices, and leveraging innovative technology to elevate attractions globally. SSA Group has over 90 partnerships with cultural attractions, zoos, aquariums, and theme parks, providing food and beverage, retail, and admissions solutions. In this interview, David talks about next-level hospitality, trends in sustainability, and a frictionless visitor experience. Next Level Hospitality "452 Lyons Street was where hospitality came to life, where the front door was always open, food was always cooking, and the community came together in warmth and welcome." David shared how this personal story, recounted by SSA's CEO, Sean McNicholas, became a metaphor for SSA's hospitality ethos. “452 Hospitality,” as the concept is called, embodies the nostalgia and spirit of genuine connection. It inspires SSA's modern strategies for guest engagement, emphasizing warmth, personalization, and innovation. David elaborated on how SSA consistently strives to exceed current hospitality standards, using his experiences at Monterey Bay Aquarium as an example of adapting to guests' expectations and continually raising the bar to meet future demands. By identifying areas of friction and integrating cutting-edge practices, SSA ensures its partners offer more than just service—they create lasting impressions that align with both emotional connection and operational efficiency. Trends in Sustainability "Sustainability isn't just about reducing waste; it's about embedding it into the DNA of the organization and leveraging our scale to move the needle." David highlighted SSA's leadership in sustainability, noting their partnerships with cultural attractions that prioritize environmental conservation. SSA's purchasing power plays a key role in driving sustainable practices, from eliminating plastic water bottles across operations to exploring kitchen electrification to reduce emissions. He also emphasized aligning SSA's sustainability efforts with the missions of their partners, such as zoos and aquariums. David shared how these collaborations amplify impact, making SSA a catalyst for positive environmental change. He pointed to examples like the widespread adoption of sustainable seafood practices initiated at the Monterey Bay Aquarium and scaled across SSA's other venues. These initiatives showcase how SSA leverages its influence to meet and exceed the sustainability goals of its clients. Frictionless Visitor Experience "From the moment someone decides to visit to the time they leave and beyond, the goal is to remove barriers and create seamless, memorable experiences." David underscored the importance of eliminating friction in the guest journey. Drawing from his past experiences, he explained how integrating technology—such as touchless security screening and app-based navigation—has made visits smoother and more engaging. He emphasized that a frictionless experience isn't just about efficiency; it's about ensuring visitors feel connected and valued throughout their journey. SSA fosters a seamless blend between its staff and the institutions they serve, ensuring that visitors can't distinguish between SSA employees and the venue's team. This integration extends to training, uniforms, and shared values, guaranteeing a consistent and unified experience. David highlighted how SSA's commitment to innovation, such as adopting podium-style service points, enhances visitor engagement and satisfaction. To learn more about SSA Ventures, visit their website or connect with David Rosenberg on LinkedIn. SSA continues to redefine hospitality, sustainability, and visitor experiences, making every partnership a step toward a brighter, more innovative future. This podcast wouldn't be possible without the incredible work of our faaaaaantastic team:   Scheduling and correspondence by Kristen Karaliunas Audio and Video editing by Abby Giganan   To connect with AttractionPros: AttractionPros.com AttractionPros@gmail.com AttractionPros on Facebook AttractionPros on LinkedIn AttractionPros on Instagram AttractionPros on Twitter (X)

Ky Harkey joins Donald Forgione on the Tailgate to discuss their mutual love of Interpretation. Ky is the Founder/Principal of the Visitor Experience. Ky is a master storyteller and serves parks nationwide with all levels of Interpretation. Join Donald and Ky on the Tailgate to discuss the importance of Interpretation.   Ky@thevisitorexperience.org donald@tailgate-talks.com

Welcome to MuseNews, the BCMA's monthly museum sector news podcast. Each month we recap some of the latest breaking news, happenings, and announcements from museums, galleries, and heritage organizations across BC and beyond. November Stories: B.C. museum to honour Chinese Canadian troops who fought in war and for citizenship rights Wet'suwet'en delegation travels to Paris to reconnect with cultural treasure Rare 95-million-year-old dinosaur tracks found near Tumbler Ridge Louise Avery retires after 28 years at Kitimat Museum Margaret Chrumka Joins AGGV as Director of Visitor Experience and Programs All aboard!: North Pole Express returns to Squamish this holiday season   If you have news you want to share on this program, please email us at bcma@museum.bc.ca

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 11th December 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Our guests:https://www.wethecurious.org/ Chris Dunford, Sustainability and Science Director at We The Curious As Sustainability and Science Director, Chris Dunford has been responsible for Sustainable Futures at We The Curious since 2011. During that time, he has introduced a sector-leading programme of environmental best practice, innovative technologies, and organisational change. In 2019, We The Curious became the first science centre in the world to declare a climate emergency and pledged to meet ambitious decarbonisation targets in this decade, implemented alongside climate change adaptation.Beyond We The Curious, Chris has held positions as Head of Environmental Sustainability at UKRI, Elected Director of the Bristol Green Capital Partnership, Mentor of Arizona State University's ‘Sustainability in Science Museums' Global Fellowship, and Chair of the ASDC Decarbonisation Group. Chris' background is in science communication and stand-up comedy. https://w5online.co.uk/Victoria Denoon is the Head of Visitor Experience at W5 Science and Discovery Centre.Victoria joined W5 Science and Discovery Centre in March 2020 and has responsibility for all aspects of W5's operations. She is also currently an ASDC Trustee. Prior to joining the team at W5, she worked in Higher Education in the United States for 15 years with a particular interest in advancing the careers of women in STEM fields. http://www.aberdeensciencecentre.org/Bryan Snelling is the CEO of Aberdeen Science Centre. He's been in this position for five years having started in November 2019. Bryan has worked in the visitor attraction sector for 11 years having previously enjoyed 6 years as CEO at The Gordon Highlanders Museum in Aberdeen. Bryan has worked in many sectors during his career including education having worked across the UK in Portsmouth and London before moving to Aberdeen. Bryan is originally from South Wales and in his spare time he enjoys playing the guitar, playing cricket and reading. https://www.sciencecentres.org.uk/Shaaron Leverment is the Chief Executive at The Association for Science and Discovery Centres.Shaaron is the CEO of ASDC and has over 20 years' experience working in science engagement and education. She stands for the value of science centres and museums for social good, as community assets that are accessible and relevant for a more diverse public.Shaaron joined ASDC in 2016 as the Deputy CEO. She is also the co-founding director of 'Explorer Dome' that engages over 70,000 children and adults every year. She leads on a number of national and international programmes and collaborations that aim to improve the relevance and accessibility of STEM for a more diverse public. As a past president of the British Association of Planetaria, she is also currently the EDI co-chair of the International Planetarium Society. Shaaron is mum to two boys, and the owner of a large hairy Golden Retriever.She is part of varied networks, working with schools, universities, science centres, museums and volunteer groups, as well as nation-wide professional associations and Government agencies. She has created and directed national and international (EU) science engagement programmes, including leading the Horizon 2020 Hypatia programme in the UK to support greater gender inclusion in informal science education, and is the driving force behind Our Space Our Future, supporting participative practice in space science outreach.Through work with ASDC, Ecsite and other international partnerships, Shaaron is known for her work to support greater equity and inclusion within our STEM education and engagement organisations, with the ambition of embedding more equitable practice for transformative organisation-wide change. Transcription:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. A podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. Now, today's episode is a special one. A few days ago I was at the Association for Science and Discovery Centre's annual conference recording in front of a live studio audience. Joined by a panel of the great and good from the Science and Discovery Centre community, Victoria Denoon, Head of Visitor Experience at W5 Science and Discovery Centre. Bryan Snelling, the CEO of Aberdeen Science Centre. Chris Dunford at ASDC Sustainability Group Chair and Sustainability Director at We the Curious. And Shaaron Leverment, the CEO of ASDC. Now, I have to say, this was a bit of a proof of concept for us and we had a few technical gremlins, but whilst the sound quality isn't brilliant, the conversations absolutely were. Paul Marden: So without further ado, let's go over to that recording I took a couple of days ago. Why don't we start with our icebreaker questions? So this is a tradition for the podcast and nobody has been prepared for this. So, Victoria, you'll like this one. It's a really easy one. Bauble or custard cream? Victoria Denoon: You said it was going to be easy. Paul Marden: Oh, no, I could give you my answer straight away. It's a firmly held belief for me. Of course, it's the only answer to that question. Bryan, you have to live in a sitcom for the rest of your life. Which one? And why? Bryan Snelling: Oh God, can I have the ball? But do you know what? The only one that sprung to mind was Only Fools and Horses. I think, you know, a bit of dodgy dealing here and there. Can't go wrong with that, I think. Yeah, Wheeler dealing, you know what I mean? Paul Marden: One day Wanda's There'll be millionaires. Chris, play 10 instruments or speak 10 languages. Chris Dunford: Oh, horrible. I'm going to go for 10 instruments because I feel as if Google can do the rest. But 10 instruments? I can finally record my own albums. Paul Marden: And Shaaron, last but not least, control time like Hermione or Fly Like Harry. Shaaron Leverment: Oh, God, fly Like Harry, Paul Marden: Really? Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, yeah, 100%. Paul Marden: You don't need a time turner to be in every session. That wasn't the latest question at all. Okay, let's get cracking then with the main interview. Shaaron, first question is for you. This year and next sees the 25th anniversary of the millennium funded science centers which saw a huge amount of investments into science communic engagement across the country. What did that do to shape science in the last quarter of the century? And where do you think it will take us next. Shaaron Leverment: Great question. Paul Marden: Thank you. Shaaron Leverment: Like 25 years ago, as I mentioned in my talk, even no one really knew what science communication was. You know, now obviously there's masters in it, there's people who are doing PhDs in it and I think it's actually becoming a very important part of policy and recognised as strategically important in terms of the way in which nation engages with science. And I do believe that's because we have these amazing places across the U.K. now. Let's be honest, like a lot of them existed beforehand. There was at least 6, including Satrasphere, which is now Aberdeen Science Centre, which existed before the Millennium centers. And then suddenly all of these centers were. But now we've got 60, nearly 70 across the entire places. The Lost Shore is just open, which is all about surf and science. Shaaron Leverment: I think science, referring to one of our keynotes, is really becoming part of culture. And then we're no longer looking at sort of museums and centres as like cathedrals of science. We're looking at them as real kind of cultural and community assets. So that's where I think. I think that's where the trajectory is going for the next 25 years. I'll just wrap that into the end of that. Paul Marden: This is a follow up for that and really anyone can join in on this one. Thinking more about where we go in the next 25 years, let's talk about funding streams because we had a big lump of money back just before the millennium projects get them kicked off and we're unlikely to see that level of lottery funding again. So how can centres, after all, they are visitor attractions and charities in many cases. How do they diversify their income streams? Victoria Denoon: I think there's two things about that and one's really important from the ASDC perspective because there's what we can do individually, but there's also what we can do collectively as a network. So you know, we are looking at that particularly from the Millennium Science Centre perspective. Victoria Denoon: And obviously that's a bigger voice if we do that together. So that's really important to have those conversations. At W5 we do that by increasing what we do for corporate hire. We do a W5 late program, which is an 18 plus evenings for adults to come down. And because we're going to be 25 years old next year, there's that nostalgia that really helps sell that. So we're looking at key events to drive revenue across the year to really get more people in our door who wouldn't come to us otherwise. Bryan Snelling: Yeah, I think it's obviously very important to diversify our income. But what we're talking about here, in terms of the money we got in 2019, you're only really going to get that sort of money again from very large institutions or government. And I think whether you're trying to persuade an individual to come and visit your science centre or local, national, devolved governments to give you money, it's all about the message that you're sending. It's about the science centres are really important part, and we were talking about it earlier on, the culture of what we're doing here. So whether you're just one individual or a multinational that has big bucks, you've really got to try and make them understand that. Chris Dunford: I think it's. Yeah, I think it's almost as well as diversifying to new funders, it's also diversifying what the existing funders will be happy to fund, because I think the funders understandably want the shiny new exhibition, the lovely new outreach in the brand advance, the school workshop photo opportunity. And those are all good things. And we couldn't do those things without the funders. But they'll need to. As these buildings getting older, they need to recognize at some point that those things can take place in the building where the roof leaks and it closes in the summer because the heat wave and the cooling system can't keep up. So I think if you're saying to the funders, yes, you can support this workshop, but we will need some contribution towards the rooms that the workshop take place in. Chris Dunford: So I think it'd be helpful to understand that. And to do that, we just need to make the case better to our value. So it's not just this extra news thing, but day to day supporting us to literally keep the lights on and keep the rain out of the roof. Bryan Snelling: Can I just add, I think there's also an important thing here about mission drift. We should be true to our own mission. We should know where we're going, our direction, and not have as much as possible. Because I understand it's a balance. Not have as much as possible. The funder direct what we do. It should be the other way around, or at least. And one of the big words of this conference that I've heard is collaboration. And we shouldn't just be doing it all the money, we should be actually understanding this is what we should be doing and this is how we're going. You should be coming on board with us. Paul Marden: You risk the tail wagging the dog, don't you? If all you do is chase the sources of funding. And you do that in a haphazard way. It's got to follow, as you say, it's got to follow the mission and the core values of the centre. Victoria Denoon: And it is a relationship, you know, it's like philanthropy and, you know, universities doing their work with donors. I mean, you really do have to have mutual respect and understanding and be looking for sponsors or funders or partners who have the same mission and values that you do. That conversation becomes a lot easier. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Shaaron, any thoughts? Shaaron Leverment: I think I agree with what they're saying. It's really well put. Paul Marden: This is an audience question and this is from Kate Allen from Purple Stars. And she asked me, is the A in steam in cooperate and why it's not a binary question. Chris Dunford: Right. Bryan Snelling: Look it up. Victoria Denoon: Yes. Bryan Snelling: Did you see the inflection in that? Paul Marden: Absolutely. Bryan Snelling: I think it's a two way process. I think that the A is very important. And again, I'm gonna repeat myself, but I think it's been a big part of what the conference has been about and it's been about collaboration. Yes, it's important, but it's a two way process because it's not all about us incorporating the arts. It's also about the arts incorporating the st, the E and the M and the science elements. So I think it's a two way process at the moment. I feel this is just my own opinion that it's a little bit more give than take. Shaaron Leverment: I think there's an interesting, you know, there's an interesting conversation of like, do you need an artist for it to be art? What is art and what is science? You know, and actually, you know, so much of, you know, the engagements that we see involve huge creativity, kids making planets and things like that in science. I do think that we need to use all the tools to get across these massive ideas. And I don't actually even know what science is anyway, so I'm on the back. Shaaron Leverment: And I also noticed in Tom Crick, when he was looking at the curriculum, they separate mathematics and numeracy from science and tech, you know, and so in science, tech engineering is often considered the invisible E in stem. Maths is often considered the invisible M in STEM in science and discovery centres, you know, and so the arts as well. I fully believe that we need to be trans and multidisciplinary 100%. But you know, I think it includes, you know, the music and everything. I think includes absolutely everything. So maybe these acronyms, which is not, they're not useful at all. Paul Marden: I don't think it helps. One of the things that we talked about when we first. We were spinning ideas around this episode, weren't we? And you talked about the idea that you shocked me, that science matters to me and I care about it. And it's something that I enjoy doing with my family. And to consider that isn't for the government to consider. That's not really part of culture because they're funded quite separately. It offends my roles, I think. Shaaron Leverment: But also, you know, it's just another beautiful way of looking at the world. You might look up at a night sky, you know, like Mara or Kilda, like we're hearing by Este. And you might look at it with eyes where you're just wondering at the jewelry of creation or making pictures in the stars. Or you might also be wondering about, well, maybe there's a planet out there. Shaaron Leverment: And I think you can look with all eyes and you can. It's all in wonder. And the fact that they are segregated, it comes back to school science, I think. I think actually in the normal world, as human beings, we don't have to separate them, but it's just very hard, especially when these are crazy funding lines. Like Tom mentioned the difference. I did not know that festivals are considered part of culture, but science festivals aren't. It's madness. Chris Dunford: It also depends in a way what you're doing. So if you're putting the A into STEAM  because you say that as a society, as a cultural attraction, we want to involve ourselves, then obviously, yes, we don't want to. You know, it's inclusive because as Shaaron said, they can. They bring different things to the table. But if you're putting an A in there because you're saying that art is the same as the others, then they're no different. But that's good. It's good that art and science kind of behave in different ways. So. So they both start with an idea or a question. They can both be kind of curious or stimulated by something. But then whether we do night sky or whatever, the way that art might scrutinise the night sky would be different to the way that science will scrutinise. And that's fine. Chris Dunford: They can complement each other. It's not. You need to recognize the differences in those kind of, I don't know, the intellectual disciplines, so they can support each other rather than say, well, artists, science, design. It's not as simple as that. They're different, but that's okay. Victoria Denoon: I do think they play a part together in making things more accessible to people. So if you look at major technology companies, they focus just as much on the design and the look of some of their products as they do on the actual technology that goes into them. So there's a lovely added experience there with putting that together. I think it's very important, but for different reasons. Paul Marden: Absolutely. There's been a lot of talk at the conference about diversity and inclusivity. To a certain extent, inclusion is about understanding who your audience is and understanding what it is that they need. Paul Marden: So let's dig into that about your three science centres. What are the customer demographics, what does the audience look like and what areas of diversity and inclusion are important to them? Victoria Denoon: Well, I think that assumes we've actually asked our audiences, you know, what is important to them. And I don't, you know, I'd like to sort of throw that over to other representatives for science centres because we have done some of that, but we probably haven't done it enough to be able to actually answer that question. That's something we are really looking at because we have a lot of different information about the demographics, but not really what they want to see us do. So we're looking at different focus groups and how to involve more people in that to get a better picture of that for our particular science centre. Bryan Snelling: I think we were very lucky to receive a lot of well enough ISF funding plus local funding to completely overhaul our science centre four years ago. What happened four years ago, it was wonderful. But as Shaaron said, we're actually not a millennium sites and we've been going for 36 years. I think tech request, slightly longer than us, Shaaron Leverment: 38.Bryan Snelling: There we go. But not many longer than us. But over that time we've asked and we found out a lot of information about what our visitors wanted. And similar to what Victoria said, we don't necessarily ask enough. We recognise that's a bad thing. We need and we are putting in place and now to evaluate to get feedback more. But back then were very aware of sort of things that we needed to do. We needed to be wheelchair user friendly. Bryan Snelling: So everything is now accessible throughout the science centre. We're one of the lucky places that have a changing places facility which is incredibly good and it's gone down very well. We also have a sensory space which was retrofitted admittedly. But if you look at our feedback on the online, that's gone down fantastically well and it allows some of our neurosensitive visitors just to calm down, go there and just take a moment and then come back and I think the very fact that we're a science centre, it's very hands on, it's very stimulating. Bryan Snelling: So having that has been a real wonderful addition to what we've got. And I think we've also got to remember financial inclusion. So a lot of the sort of sponsorship that we look for is to work with in Scotland. It's called simd, the Scottish Index for Multiple Deprivation. Chris Dunford: I'm sure there's a similar thing in England, but I want to know what it is. Paul Marden: We'll talk about that in a minute. Bryan Snelling: But we a lot of again, it's not mission drift when you are also doing it. A lot of our funders want to give us money so we can support those maybe who don't have as much money as the rest of us. So all of these things we've taken into account and parts of what we do at the science centre. Chris Dunford: Yeah. I suppose the question ultimately is when we ask our visitors what does inclusion, diversity mean to them, we won't get the answer we need. And that's because if you have a certain demographic who are visiting and you ask them diversity, inclusion, then obviously they will speak from their own life experience. But actually the people need to ask the people who aren't visiting. So in that respect, I mean the things we draw upon, we work closely with things like local council, so we have access to their data of who's living in the city and who's facing areas of deprivation and that kind of thing. Chris Dunford: So you can kind of fairly accurately figure out who's around you in your community and who's around you in your community isn't mirroring who's coming through the door and straight away you know where your focus areas are and the reason they might not be visiting, it might be economic, but it could also because there's things that you do unintentionally. It makes it look like you're not for them. Paul Marden: Yes. Chris Dunford: So only by engaging with them, seeing you through their eyes, will you understand maybe why you've been doing a thing which wasn't encouraged when they through the door. I suppose the last thing to say on that is often it's very tempting to think the inclusion thing is going to be groups that can't afford to visit and therefore Chapel saying it may be then detracting from the purely commercial enterprise we need to do to keep the buildings open and running. Chris Dunford: And for some areas who cannot afford to visit, then yes, that's an important part of what you do. But there could be areas, community who aren't visiting. And they can afford to visit because for some reason you're not currently for them, you can become for them. And you've also opened up a whole other market as well. So whether you're looking at it because you want more visitors financially, or you're looking at it because you want to be able to reach everyone, you need to ask who's in the city, who isn't here currently visiting and can we find out why they're not visiting? And then we just work through those challenge at a time until you hopefully are truly reflecting those around you. Paul Marden: I was at a Museum and Heritage Show earlier this year. There was a really interesting talk about inclusivity and making places accessible. And one of the key facts was that people that need an accessible place to visit, if they don't know something is accessible because you haven't communicated it properly, they will assume you are not accessible. And so having the changing places toilet and the sensory room is amazing. But you also have to communicate that to people in order for them to come and feel like it is a place for them. And that's. You're right, it's not about the charitable end of the organisation. It can be just a commercial thing. When you tell that story simply and easily for people, all of a sudden you are not going to market. Shaaron Leverment: We're sort of encouraging people. We've got an accessibility conference coming up in May which will be hosted by Winchester. And hopefully between now and then we can really support people with some of these amazing visual stories. Because I think you're absolutely right that you do need to know if it's accessible. You need to know what facilities you need to have those opportunities to know that there's a quiet space and what to expect. And then someone, honestly, if they know what's there and what's not there, then that's enough. Paul Marden: I've talked about this example before podcast, but Skipton Town Hall is an amazing example. They've got a museum whose name escapes me, but they won last year's Kids in Museum's Family Friendly award. But they have an amazing page that talks about their accessibilities with photos and videos where you can see the entrance, every entrance to the building and where that entrance will lead you to. It shows you the changing places toilet. You know, they are making it super easy for you to be able to understand that. And it's on your page, but it's a page that's hugely valuable on their website. Victoria Denoon: I think just beyond what you can do on your own. Site for that. There are organisations you can work with that tell people the story about what attractions in their area are accessible. So making sure you know who those groups are and working with them to get your story out and how you can support that's really important. Paul Marden: I've got Tudor in front of me from Eureka and I know that's something that Eureka has done a lot of is communicating the accessibility of what they deeds the outside world. I'm going to take your Scottish index of multiple deprivation and take that back to the uk. I'm going to talk a little bit about Cambridge Science Centre because they've passed two weeks ago, they've just opened their new building and one of the things that they talked about on the podcast with me was that part of the motivation for locating it on Cambridge Science park was because it is cheap by jail with one of the areas of multiple deprivation within the city. Paul Marden: They run youth groups in that area and what they found was that even though these kids are in a youth group associated with the Science centre and they are right next door to the Science park, those kids don't feel that a career in Science in the UK's hotspot for tech is a place where they could end up. Paul Marden: They just don't feel like it is of them. So how do we help those kids and families in those areas feel like science centres are for them and a career in the future and in science and tech is an opportunity for them? Bryan Snelling: I think when were redesigning the Aberdeen Science Centre, as I said, the only thing that's still there because It's a Category 2 listed building is the outer walls. But what we looked at that time was we said, well, how can we make it relevant to the northeast of Scotland? So we have three zones in the Science Centre which relates to either the up and coming or very much mature economies up there. We have an energy zone, of course we do, but space, you know, Shetland is on our patch, big patch, so is Sutherland and those of you who know Scotland, very big patch. That sort of space is a big part of what's happening up in northeast Scotland, but also life sciences. So we made it relevant so that people on an everyday sort of and kids can sort of relate to things. Bryan Snelling: I think we're the only city and people will help me out here and bring me down to size if that's the case. We have hydrogen buses in Aberdeen. I think we're one of the only, let's go like that. One of the only cities that currently do that and they see these things travelling through the city centre every day. But you know, they want to know more about that. So it's about making it relevant, making it day to day obvious that this, you can work in this because actually it's there or it's that or it's yes. The other thing is about showing the other careers that you can link it, you can focusing on space, but there's more than just that. You somebody said, yes, you also need to have a chef in the Antarctica. Bryan Snelling: So show them the other careers actually link in with this sort of and just make it relevant. Chris Dunford: Yeah, and I think obviously if you've got sections of society where there's young people who feel that science isn't for them, I think the first thing to recognise obviously is that they are in their lives. They're obviously getting messages that are telling them that's the case in the way in which children from other backgrounds are getting messages telling them what science is for them. And you can see that through the lens of the science capital. You can't control all of those, but you can control how you interact with them. Now, obviously what Cambridge did is they were able to physically relocate. Most of us aren't in that position in terms of the whole building, although that reached us the ability to do that on a complete short term basis. Chris Dunford: But I think again it's recognising that inclusion work is so much more than just kind of saying, “Hey, we are free. Why don't you come along today and you can visit for free or whatever.” It's the diversity of your staff and that's across the organisation. Because if they visit and they see someone that looks like them and that tells them that it is for them in a way in which it's going to be very difficult to do with the people actually working there don't look like people they would recognise as being in that kind of group in that way. It's about the activities themselves. So again, the ideas of kind of co development. So if you develop activities, rather than guess what you think they would like, just find out what they would like and involve them in those activities. Chris Dunford: So inclusion is difficult and it takes a lot of time because you can't just kind of put a sign on the door and say work for you now. You need to change the organisation. So it is enabling them to visit and then to keep that relationship going. That's the other thing that's very difficult. But I think if you did one funded visit and they came once and that was it, that might not be Enough to make them go, “Oh, so I can't be a scientist.” You get some kind of relationship with them going on over time. So yeah, it's a long, drawn out process, which means you need to look very hard at yourself and be prepared and brave to make changes in your own organisation. Because unintentionally you are probably putting some of the barriers there yourselves. Shaaron Leverment: I just want to echo that it really is about building those relationships. We ran a program called Explorer Universe across eight centres. And you know, we were all about extra partnerships and being brave and making new engagement to people who would never have thought to come through your doors. And you know, it ended up being like a year long of partnership building and then those relationships and almost all the programs were outreach. Some of them ended up, you know, as a celebratory event coming through the science centre. But it was very much going to where the kids were going to their space, you know, physically and emotionally and mentally, whatever, and working in partnership. So if you don't have the staff that reflect that community, then you can work in partnership and create those moments. Shaaron Leverment: And then when they do come to the centre, be there at the front door to welcome them. You know, I know you and it's very much, you know, like an experience floor In North Wales. Were working in a playground, you know, and talking all about them jumping off the playground with like parachutes, talking about friction and stuff like that. And one of the best quotes from that was like, I didn't realise this was science. You're like turning what they are doing and saying that you are a techie, techie person, you are a sciencey person, you are an engineer. That's what it is. Shaaron Leverment: You know, it's not saying this is what science is, you know, it's changing the capital that they have already into science capital to know that they are already inherent, as Osley said, inherent sort of scientists anyway. Paul Marden: Yes. Shaaron Leverment: So, yeah.Victoria Denoon: I think science centres are in a really wonderful space here to be able to do that because, you know, we do build relationships with community groups and schools all the time. And research has shown that these young people, why they see themselves in relation to their peers, that will attract them more than anything else into potential careers in science. So having a space where people can come and, you know, we don't tell them, don't touch that, don't do that. Victoria Denoon: You know, they can really fully get hands on and engage in things and having that opportunity. We just opened two years ago, our Learning Innovation for Everyone Space. We offer free school programs there, particularly in partnership with Microsoft and do coding workshops and things like that and lots of other activities and you can also do OCN accredited programs with us there. So it's really about getting them together as a group of their peers and showing them what's possible in that space. Paul Marden: That's amazing. So I'm a dev by background. Telling the story of Computer Science is not something that you see in every science centre that you go to. The whole kind of the history of computing, it exists in places, there are pockets of it. But it's not something that I want to coding club as well. But how many of my kids could go to a local science centre and feel that what they're doing when they're coding the robot and building some Lego is related to something that they see when they're at the science centre and that there's a mental leap to go from this fun thing that we're doing with this robot to the career that is amazing that I could have in the future. It's really hard. Paul Marden: Talking of kids, I'm a trustee at Kids in Museum and we talk a lot about getting the voice of young people who visit attractions and young people, they're worthy, they're in their career and incorporating that into the decision making, strategic direction of museums and science centres. I think it's definitely really important when we talk about climate emergency to get that younger voice in so that trustees don't all look like me. Let's talk a little bit about the youth platform and how you incorporate the youth voice into what you guys do. Who wants to take that one first? I can spot who cracks first. Bryan Snelling: Okay. I'm not very good at this, am I? You are very good. No, but I'm actually quite proud of what we do at Aberdeen. We about a year and a bit ago introduced a STEM youth ball and we're very pleased with that. We actually work with a local festival so it's ourselves and Aberdeen Tech Fest that jointly I say support, but actually they support us. The youth board, it's made up of secondary school kids, young people and last year was a pilot year and it went very well. We're now looking at developing it further. But what they do is they look at what they want to do, they work out what they want to do within a board situation. Bryan Snelling: They've got all the usual bits, chair and the secretary, but they work out that they want to deliver this program and then they'll go away, work together on the delivery of that program. They'll also work out the marketing side of things. They'll also do all of that. But I also, and my counterpart with TechFest also bring our ideas and say what do you think about this? And they give us a very. Paul Marden: Take some of them and rubbish a few I guess.Bryan Snelling: That's what it's for. Paul Marden: Exactly. Bryan Snelling: I mean, let's get out of the way in a safe space before we then go ahead and spend money on this thing. Paul Marden: The most brutal focus could possibly bring together. Bryan Snelling: But we're very pleased with that. The other thing that we're currently looking at doing is working with local university, Robert Goldman University, especially the architecture school, to redevelop our outer area, the garden. It was the only area that wasn't developed when we did inside. And we undertook a number of brainstorming sessions with the youngsters and I mean your 5 to 12 year olds to get their input. And we did that a number of ways, remember drawing or talking or writing, whatever. And that was really interesting. We'd obviously, as the adults had done a similar thing but what they brought was a completely different point of view and it's wonderful. Paul Marden: Excellent. Victoria, you can't not look at teacher. It's only going to encourage me to. Victoria Denoon: No, I think you know, to what Bryan was saying there. We haven't started yet but we're looking at this idea of creating a Y suite, you know, which is our youth suite, which would be young people that will come in and kind of meet once a quarter to help us with some of those decisions. Bryan was talking about Inspiring Science Fund. We also did a huge renovation at W5 as a result of that and that involved a lot of consultation with young people, with teachers, et cetera. And we do a lot of youth led programs but we're looking at really how do we engage that in this more strategic direction going forward. Paul Marden: I think it's hugely valuable, isn't it? When you take it from a consultation point to something that is actually helping to drive the strategy of the organisation. It's transformational. Sharoon, do you have any thoughts about that? Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, I mean I sort of see it from a bird's eye view really, you know. But you know we have our Youth Voice Award because last year our volunteers award was won by. Part of our volunteers award was won by Winchester young group of environmental activists that were really doing great things down at Winchester Science Centre and influencing one seekers charity. And anyone who was at dinner last night, you might have seen the video from Zed King who has done so much work supporting Centre for Life and making massive changes there and not just there, like actually across the network. We are. So we've got this Youth Voice award as one of the only awards that we give because it is so important. We are all about. Not all about, but we are a lot about young people. Shaaron Leverment: So they need to have voice but it's very difficult to be sure how to do that and to make sure that we're not putting too much pressure. I mean here at this conference you can. There we've got some young people coming in showing their bio robots. We've got. Obviously we had the Esports award last night and our next keynote we've got two younger panel members to do a discussion about eco anxiety and how that feels for them to influence the way in which we think about our climate engagement from the voices of people who are experiencing it and experiencing this massive grief and anxiety about their own futures. So yeah, there's a lot of work going on obviously over in Armagh as well, you know, especially with autistic families and you know, I think it's. Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, it's a growing area and we're putting a lot of effort into encouraging like hearing these stories and different things and you know, I know we the curated. Well, with your authority sharing, I might just throw that over to you. I mean I think that's a great piece of work. Chris Dunford: Yeah. On the climate side especially. One thing we've done in the past is work with Bristol City Council, Youth Council, I think I might say most councils will have something like this because they then feed into the UK lean Parliament. I think that's really useful for two reasons. Firstly, because it gives them a space when you talk about climate issues. But secondly, it's helping them to understand the process of democracy, which young people's possibly more important now than ever. I think that's really key because I think what often happens, especially at events like cop, is that inside the room you've got the politicians and decision makers who are struggling with this really difficult challenge of how do we decarbonise and knowing there isn't an easy thing to fix it. Chris Dunford: It's going to be a lot of trailblazers, compromise, a lot of hard work outside where you've got the young people kind of screaming desperately do something, finally find the solution and then have these two different worlds. So I think if you could bring those together to bring the youth Voice into those conversations. What are the trade offs? What are the decisions? Because the consequence of decisions they inherit not us. But also it's useful for young people because it helps them understand that there isn't an easy solution and yes, there's going on strike and it's making the message clear, but there's getting into discussion of what are the trade offs, what are the compromises, and that's how a democracy works. I think that's really useful. Chris Dunford: But the other thing I'd say is if you're going to engage with young people on this and also be prepared for the fact that they're clear, they know what they want and they want the allies to take action. So if you say to them, great, there's time to change that, you're creating a youth board so you can learn about climate change, they'll say, yes, but what are you doing to reduce your carbon emissions? So we're doing this group and we're going to get your views on that. Thank you, that's fine. What are you doing to reduce your carbon emissions? So if you're going to enter into this space, they know what they want from us. They want to take action to create deep, radical and rapid decarbonisation. Chris Dunford: So be prepared for that question because they will ask it and it's the right to ask it. We need to do stuff as well as having board. At the same time, you've got to be taking the action to show that you're copying the agency, what they want. Shaaron Leverment: Have you seen the recent DCMS call as well? I mean, it's obviously strategically important at government as well. So all funders and DCMS in particular are making an election in this. So, yeah, leading the way. Paul Marden: A beautiful segue to my next question, which is what, Chris, this one's for you really is what are ASDC members doing ahead of national targets to reach net zero? Chris Dunford: Yeah. So it's probably worth just causing phone. So, in terms of the national target, for anyone who isn't aware, net zero for the UK is 2050. And net zero essentially means that your carbon emissions are down to zero or they're not zero, then you're offsetting what emissions you are creating. So the balance of the atmosphere is 2 0. And it's really hard. And the reason it's really hard, whether you're a government or an organisation, is you're following the greenhouse gas protocol, which means it's across all three scopes, which essentially means it's the stuff you expect. Chris Dunford: So it's the energy from the grid, it's your fuel and vehicles, it's burning gas in your home or places where, but it's also emissions from all the stuff that you buy and the investments from your bank and your pensions and it's the emissions from your business who travel to visit you. It's huge. It's very complex. So it's difficult. That's essentially what it means, the claim in terms of what sciences are doing. So it's a mixed back. There's plenty of science centers who still don't have a specific claim decarbonisation target, whether that be net zero or 2050 or sooner. So that's one issue I think we need to. Those who have done that piece of work have to work those who haven't to support them, enable them and encourage them to create a space where they can do. Chris Dunford: Because your Internet provider probably has a Net Zero pledge on their website, your supermarket certainly does. Your local council will, your university. So with science centres, it might seem strange that we're actually behind those players rather than leaving it. And of those that do have targets, there's probably about seven science centres in the network. This is student, big museum. So in terms of. In terms of the main science centres and then Tampa Gardens and museums, if you include them, there's probably about 11 organisations who have a kind of a decarbonisation net zero net neutral aimed before 2015. They're mostly around 2030. And again, that's really hard. And those organisations are now figuring out what that means and just how difficult that is. Chris Dunford: There is also even project who have boldly gone for a net positive to say they'll actually be removing more carbon than releasing by 2030. But it's really hard. And the reason it's hard for science centres is we're not Marks and Spencers. We can't just hire a stable team overnight and throw money at this problem. So we're renting some organisations who are tight on time and money who now to take on this huge challenge. That doesn't excuse us from the challenge. So there's no easy solution on the fact that we have to put resource into this. And I think that's why there aren't more Net Zero aims on websites for the centres at the moment. But I think we can get there. We need to recognise it's hard. Chris Dunford: And finally, if you are doing lots of engagement, as I said with schools, then again you need to be backing this up with some kind of Net zero. So it's a mixed bag of the network. There's probably about 10 or so that have specific net zero aims and they're mostly around 2030, 2040. But my prediction is in the coming years, those organisations are going to make some really hard choices and actually say how they're going to do that, because we know from experience it's really difficult. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing it. It means you have to push even harder than you were before. Paul Marden: Thank you. Bryan Snelling: Can I add something? Paul Marden: Of course. Bryan Snelling: I think decarbonisation is an important message, full stop, especially in Aberdeen, for obvious reasons. I hope we feel that we have an important duty almost to the visitors to the northeast of Scotland and beyond. Because I think how can we talk the talk about decarbonisation if we don't walk the walk? So there's an internal thing, which notwithstanding how difficult it is, we're just starting down that route. We've had an energy audit done of ourselves. We're now in the process of working out what that roadmap is, or maybe it should be a cycle path road towards net zero, but we need to work that out. But on the other side, we're also tasked with telling people, this is what you should be doing. This is the energy transition. Bryan Snelling: This is how you renewable energy in the future. So how can you do both? How can you do one without the other one? I mean, and I think we just need to be aware of that. And I think as the future goes back to the very first question about what's happening in the future, that's all big part of what we need to be looking at.Paul Marden: Conference is all about shaping future science together. What's your take home message from the different talks that you've been to, or possibly because we've not finished the conference yet that you're looking forward to. What's the standout moment? I know. So I would say for me, the standout moment was last night's awards. I mean, if you weren't overtaken by Zed's video, if you weren't moved by Hamish talking about. And for me, what they both demonstrated is that volunteering and engagement is a conversation. It's a two way street, isn't it? Because they weren't just there as a resource doing things, they were getting something from the relationship and giving back to the sense, etc. At the same time. For me, that bit was the most powerful. Shaaron Leverment: Yeah. And I think actually, you know, there's a lot of emotion there, you know, and it's incredible to someone stand up and say science and you saved my life. Paul Marden: Yes. Shaaron Leverment: You know, I think it was just incredible and very brave. And I think that kind of bringing that emotion into science, it's really important and remembering the people, even people. I think there's been quite a few messages about, you know, the safe spaces that we provide and that interaction with people and that genuine understanding. I think I'm really excited about. We're no longer sort of let science speak for itself and we're not going. Shaaron Leverment: You know, I think people are socially connecting and using emotion a lot more because first we feel right, first we feel and that is what our inclusive outcomes are all about. That it's what makes a difference for someone who is disengaged and doesn't feel that science and technology could be for them to feeling that maybe there's a place they need to feel they belong. So I'm really excited about that aspect of it. I also agree with everything that the elders are about. Bryan Snelling: Really. Shaaron Leverment: Yeah. Chris Dunford: I think several things yesterday for me resonated with the thing which Stephen Breslin said at the very start, which is that we come to these conferences anxious and slightly overwhelmed by the challenges we're facing and leaves feeling energized and positive with at least some of the solutions. And I think that's. That's a similar pattern that I experienced with these conferences. And I think through that lens I've been listening to all the challenges yesterday. And it's just our job is hard and potentially getting harder and as it gets harder, it's more important to society than ever. And I think that's the main thing I'm taking away. Chris Dunford: And I don't just mean things like the inclusion work and the decarbonisation work which we've spoken about during this session, but even things like one of the sessions that really stuck me yesterday was where the Science museum were talking in the lightning talks about their new AI exhibition and the fact that when all the many centers open they could have exhibits that explained Google of motion by pendulums and spinning things. A physical thing. And now we're having to have conversations about AI where there is no physical thing you can hold in your hands. Chris Dunford: There's a historical artefact, it's a circuit board doesn't tell you anything about what circuit board really does in terms of how it impacts society and how are we going to do science communication, science engagement around these challenging issues like AI which are then mounted up with all these kind of social problems with them, which again, the laws of motion that we come with. So, so I suppose I'm going away with that is the fact that our creativity is going to be tested more than before and our ingenuity and our ability to collaborate beyond our initial partners. So, yeah, for me, weirdly, it's about the science communication side and things like AI are going to make that really challenging. And how are we going to do that? Any of the answers other than the fact that we know we're not doing it alone, we're doing it as a network. And that's obviously big talk. Victoria Denoon: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. That remark by Stephen really is something that stuck with me because I did come here as well, thinking about the challenges we're facing, not just as a Science and Discovery centre, but also politically at the moment and just how pessimistic you can be about things. And really being in this conference with all of these amazing people makes you feel more optimistic about things and I think that's just really powerful and it carries you through. So for me, that's. And I think some of the conversations that have been happening here, I feel like since last year we've made a huge jump in terms of where the impact of our network is going with other people. And, you know, Tom's talk this morning really brought that home a little bit as well. So I'm feeling very optimistic. Paul Marden: Thank you. We always end our interviews with a book recommendation, which can be personal or professional. So, Victoria, do you want to share yours with everyone? Victoria Denoon: Well, I think when were talking about this, it was like, what's your favourite book? And for me, my favourite book is actually Pride and Prejudice. It's a book I would read over and could read over and over again. Jane Austen's musings. Paul Marden: Excellent. Bryan. Bryan Snelling: You know, this is the most difficult question that you're going to be putting to us. I've read, you know, fiction most of my life. I mean, you can't. I've always got a book, always looking at a book. So I don't actually have favourites. Why is it favourites? What I can say is my most recent book that I've read was the Thursday we're at the Club by Rich Lawson, which is quite nice. The most profound one was actually 1984. I read that when I was about 18 and I thought, wow. And that was really quite interesting. Followed swiftly by Animal Farm, of course. Paul Marden: So that's three recommendations bankrupt me over. Chris. Chris Dunford: So I've gone for War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells. I'm a big fan of, like, old sci fi books. It's different to modern sci fi. Sci fi books like Jules Byrne and H.G. Wells will just ramble on pages about scientific theories at the time. Things they read in nature. So it's genuinely kind of science fiction. But War of the Royals because it's just. It scares me every time I read it. Like it still scares me. Absolutely. And I quite enjoy that. And I don't know why. And there's something about the complete, you know, civilisation. Actually some shouldn't put on this thread too hard, but there's something fascinating about that. Kind of, as he describes it, the liquefaction of society is everything kind of falls apart and every time I pick it up, I'm terrified and I pick it up again, I'm still terrible. Paul Marden: Shaaron, lastly, yours. Shaaron Leverment: I had forgotten this is a question. Paul Marden: Chris had three books, so you can choose. Shaaron Leverment: I'll go for in my. In my head I go for I just off the cup. The Martian is great. When it's got a little bit tiresome with the whole potatoes, improve it. But it is a brilliant. Yeah, it's great. Paul Marden: We are done. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thank you to my guests Victoria, Bryan, Chris and Shaaron, and my amazing ASDC Live studio audience. Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm. The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Utah Avalanche Center forecast, Wasatch County residents can give budget feedback in December, Swaner Preserve and EcoCenter Director of Visitor Experience and Exhibits Hunter Klingensmith has details on the special exhibition ending this month and upcoming holiday art market, Park City Councilmember Ryan Dickey and Zion's Bank Public Finance Relations Manager Erik Daenitz discuss the Main Street Area Plan, Montage Deer Valley hotel manager Sean Casserly has details on a number of upcoming holiday events open to the public and Chris Lawing, Director of Sales and Marketing for the Pendry previews upcoming holiday events open to the public.

Steve and Jeremy talk to Jon Cecil of Bardstown Bourbon Company.   See Jon's Card Catalog Speakeasy: https://tinyurl.com/2c2re38h   Meet Steve's Challenge… Buy The Glencairn & Donate to To Jon's Charitable Work: https://tinyurl.com/2vs24akd   The Bourbon Show music (Whiskey on the Mississippi) is by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com).   Important Links: YouTube: https://bit.ly/3kAJZQz Our Club: https://www.abvnetwork.com/club Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theabvnetwork Check us out at: abvnetwork.com. Join the revolution by adding #ABVNetworkCrew to your profile on social media.

Janeane speaks with Susan Davidson, a curatorial advisor to Langson IMCA, and the curator of Picturing Summer. Over her distinguished career as a curator and art historian, Susan has served as a curatorial advisor to the Robert Rauschenberg Foundation and has worked at the Guggenheim Museums (New York, Venice, Bilbao, and Abu Dhabi) and The Menil Collection in Houston. Newest exhibition, Picturing Summer, opened on July 20 in the interim space at 18881 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 100 in Irvine. Curated by Susan Davidson with interpretive text written by Dada Wang. The selection of over 30 paintings depicts our state's unique geography and lifestyles across a range of eras and landscapes, ocean views, and leisure activities—all specific to the summer months. The student Gallery Guides and Visitor Experience colleagues are on site to greet you and introduce you to art-making activities inspired by the artworks on view. Please stop by, say hello, and tap into your own creativity! Admission is always free—we are open to all—and parking is validated for up to two hours in the adjacent Airport Tower parking structure. And when you visit, please take a moment to explore our new In Focus gallery, featuring work from The Buck Collection as well as recent art acquisitions. Our new Reading Lounge also awaits you and is ideal for learning more about the artists represented in our collection and their responses to the California experience. Langson IMCA produced a brief video about the exhibition. Get a sneak peak at the in-gallery visuals. The video is produced by Bower Blue and Mike Rosetti. Langson IMCA, "Picturing Summer" exhibition introduction more: getthefunkoutshow.kuci.org

The VLA and NRAO approved our content for release! Enjoy the first of a small series of interviews we conducted with scientific personnel this last March at the VLA and the NRAO. Kolby, Dawson, and Ben sit down on-site with NRAO STEAM Education Manager and Visitor Experience and Guided Tour Manager for the VLA, Summer Ash, to discuss the workings of the telescope, her favorite projects she's been a part of, and the way the VLA operates.

Coillte, Ireland's semi-state forestry company and leading provider of outdoor recreation has announced an exciting new pilot programme in partnership with Irish start-up HiiKER, creators of an innovative hiking app. This initiative will offer a new and innovative way for local and visiting outdoor enthusiasts to experience Coillte forests by offering walkers and hikers real-time forest and walking trail insights before and during their visits. Launching this summer, the pilot programme will introduce advanced features to HiiKER's "Parks and Recreation" functionality. New enhancements include trail distances, accessibility reports and difficulty levels. Users will also benefit from real-time updates on trail busyness, parking availability, food options and toilet facilities. The HiiKer app will, for the first time, give visitors a real sense of the various activities available in Coillte's forests and improve the overall visitor experience. This new technology will be piloted in seven Coillte forests across the country including: Cruagh Woods, Ticknock, and Tibradden Woods in Dublin, as well as Donadea Forest Park in Kildare, Portumna Forest Park in Galway, Farran Forest Park in Cork and Dromore Forest in Kerry. Visitors to these forests will be the first to experience the enhanced capabilities offered by HiiKER. HiiKER, is an Irish start up founded by Paul Finlay in Co. Meath. The app has helped over 1 million hikers to plan and navigate their hiking adventures all around the world. The app curates the best hikes on the planet, along with important points of interest to help users to plan the perfect hike. Most importantly, it works with the most notable map developers and cartographers to bring a wealth of verified route information to the public. Coillte and HiiKER will pilot the technology over a six-month period, utilising Coillte's extensive expertise. The collaboration will yield valuable insights into forest and trail usage, allowing Coillte to make data-driven decisions to further enhance the visitor experience for all. Daithi de Forge, Head of Recreation at Coillte, said, "Coillte forests attract an average of 18 million visits annually, and we are delighted to partner with HiiKER on this pilot, which aims to enhance the walking and hiking experience across several of our beautiful forests. This innovative programme supports our commitment to enhancing the recreational, social, and well-being benefits of our forests and making them more accessible and enjoyable for all. "By integrating Coillte's extensive knowledge of the natural environment with HiiKER's cutting-edge technology, we aim to provide visitors with an enriched, informed and seamless experience when they visit our forests. Paul Finlay, HiiKER CEO added, "We are excited to join forces with Coillte to launch this innovative pilot programme that will transform the way people explore Ireland's forests. Our new HiiKER Parks and Recreation functionality and Coillte's extensive database of recreational maps and data, enables the public to explore Coillte forests like never before. We're encouraging everyone to download the app for free and start exploring these forests today." Download HiiKER from the iOS App Store or Google Play Store and search for one of the pilot forests.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 19th June 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: Skipton Town Hall https://skiptontownhall.co.uk/accessibility/Noor & Katu https://noorandkatu.com/Survey mentioned by Paul:  https://www.euansguide.com/media/0uyju30y/final-23-euansguide-results-pdf.pdfKids in Museums Open Letter:  https://kidsinmuseums.org.uk/2024/05/dear-change-makers-an-open-letter-from-the-kids-in-museums-youth-panel/Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - https://rubbercheese.com/survey/ https://carbonsix.digital/https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn't know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile. https://rubbercheese.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/ Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII's personal man at arms. Outside of work he's a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids. Transcription:  Oz Austwick: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Oz Austwick. It's been a busy few weeks in the visitor attraction industry and the world at large. So in today's episode we're going to take some time to talk about what's happening, including the recent M+H Show, the upcoming election, the Family Friendly Museum Awards, and of course, the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey. Oz Austwick: So, Paul, where have you been recently? Paul Marden: So as we are recording, it is currently half term week, a little bit of a damp half term week, which is a bit of a shame when you're in mid May, but went to Longleat at the weekend and went specifically to go and see their Steve Backshall live event, which is happening at the moment. So for those of you that don't have kids watching CBBC at the moment, Steve Backshall does the deadly 60 telly programme, which is kind of animals and nature on CBBC. And Steve brought out some of the best animals on his event at Longleat. So it was really cool. We got to see some. We saw an armadillo, we saw massive, great python and a wolf. He brought a wolf out on stage, which was pretty awesome. Oz Austwick: Oh, wow. Paul Marden: Yeah, that was cool. So there was lots of oohing and ahring and everybody enjoyed it. Lots of fun, even though it was absolutely gushing down with rain whilst we were there on Monday. So we didn't. Typical english style. We did not let the weather get in the way of a good day. What about you? Where have you been recently, Oz? Oz Austwick: We had our bank holiday day out on Sunday, not on Monday. So we had amazing weather. We threw all the kids in the car and drove down to Dorset to Swanage, where I used to spend my childhood holidays. And the place that went was Swanage Pier. I love it there. I spent my childhood, you know, fishing off the pier and swimming in the sea. Sadly, the hotel I used to go to doesn't exist anymore. They knocked it down and turned it into a sewage treatment plant. Paul Marden: Attractive. Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. But it was absolutely amazing. The sea was very cold indeed. I did get in, had a bit of a swim, as did my eleven year old. The others all chickened out and just sat and watched. But it was lovely, you know, two p machines in the arcades. Paul Marden: Oh, I love it. Was it the pushers on the shelves? Coin drop ones? I love that. Yeah, gotta be the two p ones. Can't afford the ten p ones. That's too rich for me. Oz Austwick: Who can? I mean, that's vast amounts of money to win anything in those. Paul Marden: So Swanage for me just brings back memories of geography, field trips. I remember going there for about a week whilst I was at secondary school donkeys years ago, so. Oz Austwick: Right, well, we used to drive down from Yorkshire, where I grew up, and it would take all day to drive down to go to Swanage. I mean, it was, yeah, when we were there. Absolutely amazing. And the hotel was lovely before they knocked it down, obviously. So I have very fond memories and, yeah, nothing has happened to spoil those memories, thankfully. A very popular place for us to go. Paul Marden: Lovely day trip. Oz Austwick: Yeah, it really was. It really was. So the M+H show, let's talk about that, because that happened and it was quite a thing, wasn't it? Paul Marden: It really was. I had such a lovely time, so it was my first time at M+H show. It was. It was lovely event. They pitched it as the big meetup and it really was. I mean, it was absolutely jam packed with people. There were lots and lots of people there when I was there on Wednesday and so many people that I know that I was bumping into that were either running stands, presenting, or just being there and enjoying all the great content and meeting people. It was just such an awesome event. How was it for you as your first big attractions event? Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah. It wasn't just my first M+H. It was my 1st event. And, yeah, I was gobsmacked, to be honest. It was big. More than anything. I'm just genuinely surprised at how many companies sell museum display cases. Paul Marden: There was a lot of glass cabinets on show. Oz Austwick: Yeah, there really were. And they were beautiful. But, yeah, I mean, how do you differentiate yourself in that market, I wonder? Paul Marden: I would differentiate myself by going around and putting my greasy fingers over all the competition's glass and show how beautiful my cabinets could be. Oz Austwick: Yeah, just take my children. They'd make a mess of the glass within seconds of arriving. So did you get to any of the talks, any of the presentations? Paul Marden: I did, actually, yeah, I saw a few presentations. I thought they were really good this year. It was quite clever being given your headset that you could wear so that you could hear the presenters. Few people that have been in previous years telling me how great that was this time, because that was a new introduction this year. Oz Austwick: Can I just throw a slightly different perspective on that? I turned up late to one presentation and I didn't have the little box and the person who was handing them out was on the other side and couldn't get. So I missed it completely. Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to make sure you can hear what's going on. Paul Marden: It's tough. Isn't it? I felt it was a little bit. So when I had a similar experience where at one point I didn't have one, and it feels a little bit. It's hard, but it answers the problem they've had in previous years, where it was the same layout, where it's a big, noisy hall. And this did make it quite possible for people to be able to hear what was going on. But I would imagine as a speaker on stage, that's quite tough talking to people when you know they can't hear your voice. I don't know. I don't know how I'd feel about that. But there was one presentation that really stuck in my mind, and that was Spencer Clark from ATS and Steve Dering from Direct Access Consultancy. And they were talking about breaking down barriers and basically just giving a collection of essential accessibility tips for attractions. Paul Marden: And it was just such a great presentation. I always think that if I'm presenting at an event, if one person walks away, having heard one thing from me, I feel like I've kind of done my job. And to be fair to Spencer and Steve, they absolutely nailed that. I walked out of the room at the end of that, fizzing with ideas and walked away. And straight away that evening, I was writing a pitch for a client and things that I'd learned from what they were talking about made it into my pitch presentation. It's directly changing the way I think about accessibility. So I thought that it was a great achievement.Oz Austwick: And especially for that specific talk. It's not just a talk that says, “Oh, you can make some more money, do if you do this, or you can improve your response rate if you do this.” Actually saying, “This is a way you can help people.”Paul Marden: Yeah. Oz Austwick: And that's now changed the way that Rubber Cheese works and that. What an amazing result for them. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. There's a few things, few numbers that stuck in my mind and I kind of. I went and read about them afterwards and we'll put some links in the show notes to the survey that these stats are based on. But there was. There's two things that they said which really stuck in my mind. 59% of disabled people say, if a venue has not shared its disabled access information, I avoid going because I assume it's inaccessible. And 77% of disabled people say I'm more likely to visit somewhere new if I can find relevant access information about the venue. So these numbers, they caught me straight away and they got me thinking and made me realise that making a venue accessible is more than just meeting the website accessibility guidelines, which is kind of a key focus for us in the industry.Paul Marden: Lots of organisations will want to make sure that they follow the WCAG guidelines, the accessibility guidelines. Anyone that has a large amount of public sector funding will have a statutory obligation to meet those targets. So that's a big focus of people's attention. But just making it so that a screen reader can read your website, or making it so that you've addressed colour accessibility for people that are colour blind isn't enough to make the attraction itself accessible. So if you don't share the content about how your venue is accessible, people will assume you are not accessible. It was an eye opener for me. They gave a really great example. They talked about Skipton Town Hall up in Yorkshire, and they've got a webpage on their site all about the accessibility features of the building. And it was rich with photography. Paul Marden: So, you know, it's got pictures of all of the access points into the building, what the door looks like and which part of the building it gives level access into. They had pictures of all of the toilets that they've got and how they're accessible. They're fortunate. They've got a changing places toilet. So this is one of these accessible toilets with a large bed and usually with the equipment to be able to move somebody out of a chair and onto a bed to be able to change them. They've got photos of all of that on the website. So the accessibility information is right there. It's really clear and it gives loads of really good evidence that demonstrates this is somewhere that takes accessibility seriously. Oz Austwick: Yeah. Paul Marden: Interestingly, this didn't come out in the talk itself, but I found it interesting that the Craven Museum is based in Skipton Town Hall and they won the most accessible museum and the overall winner of the Family Friendly Museums award last year. And we interviewed them back a couple of weeks ago, back in March. So it kind of shows you that making places more accessible for disabled people makes them more accessible for all sorts of people as well. So, you know, it can make it more accessible for families with young children, it can make it more accessible for the elderly, it can make it more accessible for people with temporary access needs. Paul Marden: If you've breaking your leg or something like that, you know, you're not permanently disabled, but you need access into a building and making places more accessible to you for disabled people widens the access into the entire venue itself. I've since had a quick look at some of our clients and they're all writing about this. People are putting lots of information onto their website about this sort of thing. I saw Eureka had a special microsite all about it and Mary Rose have got information on their website about it. So this is really important content. And for me, sitting and listening to them talking, going back and thinking about it is really. It's really caught my attention and made me think and do things differently, which, you know, I feel like that's what these sorts of events are all about. Really? Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what a fantastic result for the event. If it opens up the industry to people who were struggling to access it, then, yeah, job done, right? Paul Marden: Yeah, completely. What about you? Oz Austwick: There were a few highlights for me, but I think one of the things that stood out the most was getting to meet some of the kind of movers and shakers within the community meeting Gordon from ACE, what a lovely guy. Had a fantastic chat to him and it really struck me how there are so many people and organisations who exist within the sector purely to try and improve the whole sector for everybody. I like it anyway because I've got a real interest in the historical side of things, museums and stately homes and castles that really talks to me and I take the kids out to places, so it's nice to know, but to actually be part of an industry where everyone's trying to help each other, I think is really lovely. Paul Marden: It really isn't it? Yeah. There were so many people like Gordon that you met at the event and they just make you feel good, they make you buzzy. There's a huge kind of collective recharge of batteries and fizzing of ideas that comes from these sorts of events, it was just brilliant. Oz Austwick: Yeah. That's what networking should be, right? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I was going to do a shout out for one person that had a stand. I've got a card that I picked up. This is a lady called Sonya Varoujian and she runs an organisation called Noor and Katu. They import these handmade crocheted little animals, finger puppets and toys and things. I went straight over to those because my daughter is crocheting like mad. She got taught by grandma a couple of months ago. It blows my mind. I have absolutely no idea what's going on as she's doing this and all of a sudden, out the other side comes a squid. But this little organisation Sonya was living and working in Armenia got the idea when she returned back to the UK and now imports these toys and they're for sale in a bunch of different attractions. Paul Marden: I just thought it was really lovely that these were fair trade, they were nice, creative things that I know my daughter would absolutely lap up at an organisation and it's completely sustainable and makes a big difference in communities that are not well served. Oz Austwick: Absolutely. And I know that you, like me, almost certainly get dragged into gift shops at visitor attraction sites on a regular basis and there comes a point where you've seen the staff and to have a company out there that's not only doing good things, but providing something a little bit different, a little bit unique that you can buy in a gift shop and actually feel like you've done something worthwhile and bought something that isn't just going to fall apart in a couple of weeks. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Oz Austwick: I think that. Yeah, yeah, it would be really nice to see more things like that. So, yeah, go and check them out if you're listening or watching. Paul Marden: Did you see any talks yourself that  caught your attention? Oz Austwick: Yeah, yeah, there were a couple that sprung to them. But firstly, I wanted to just briefly mention the talk that I didn't get to watch. I'm a YouTuber, not a massively successful one, but I'm part of a YouTube community. So when I saw that the Tank Museum was doing a talk about how they've used the YouTube creator community to boost their own social media and their own income, I thought, “Fantastic, I'll go along and see that.” Because my brother in law, who's a far more successful YouTuber than I am, was actually part of that. He got invited down to make a video about his favourite tank. So I turned up and obviously I thought I was on time. I was too late. It was hugely crowded, there was no seats, there was no space. So I was stood in the kind of the corridor. Oz Austwick: It's not really. Is it a corridor? The path, the walkway, I don't know what you call it. And, yeah, got moved on by the venue staff because.Paul Marden: Loitering in the corridors. Oz Austwick: We were effectively blocking the way through. And rightly so, you know, they need to make sure access is maintained. But, yeah, I didn't get to see that talk, which I was a little bit sad about, but a couple of talks that I did get to see, which stood out, was the Bloomberg panel discussion hosted by Kripa Gurung. They're doing some amazing work. And the fact that it's a completely philanthropic organisation, I think is quite amazing if you haven't come across what Bloomberg are doing with Bloomberg Connects the app. But, yeah, that was really interesting. Talking about what they're doing, how they're getting organisations online, having the museum at the home and English Heritage there, talking about what they're doing with Bloomberg Connects was great. Oz Austwick: But I think, if I'm being honest, my favourite talk was the Castle Howard Christmas events talk, partly because it was really interesting, talking about the marketing and how they've created this amazing Christmas event that has a real following and people come back year after year and they've done that on purpose and it's been hugely successful. But Abby from Castle Howard, she's just hilarious. She's been a guest a couple of times, talking about how she hospitalised an old man on his very last ever day at work and then how she sacked Santa. Just, yeah, if you get a chance to go and see their talks go along, because it's not only entertaining but informative, too. So, yeah, that's probably the highlight for me. Paul Marden: Cool. I saw a lovely presentation. Longtime listeners will know that I'm a Kids in Museums trustee. So I went over and watched the Kids in Museums Youth Panel and it was really interesting because they had a summit focused around young people and their needs in museums back last year. They had a webinar where they talked about it a couple of months ago and I was blown away by these people who are part of the Kids in Museums Youth Panel. You know, young people at early stages of their careers, some of them are at uni still. Some of them are in the early stages of their first jobs and just talking so articulately about their experience of museums, what they think museums should change, what's going well, what could be done better? Paul Marden: And so I wasn't disappointed when I saw them speaking in real life. They did a cracking job talking about the museum summit and what they think are the issues in the museum. So there was a couple of stats I pulled out of it. Over 90% of young people don't feel considered as an audience and represented in museums, which that blows my mind, because we talk a lot about audience with the people that we work with, and the needs of young people are central to many of the conversations that we have about audience. So there. That made me think, “Oh, is there a problem where the conversations that do get had are not being discussed in the right way? Is it a problem of perception? Paul Marden: Is it that young people don't perceive that they're being considered when in actual fact they are, or is it a lack of involvement and so they feel like it's being done to them rather than being done with them?” Yeah. Food for thought. If most young people feel that museums don't consider them as part of their audience, that's problematic. Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. Isn't it? I mean, I'd be amazed if the people that were running the museums had the same opinion. I suspect they clearly think they are doing things for young people and children, but maybe they're just not asking those young people what they want. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few things that the youth panel suggested could be done. So loads of kids go on school trips to museums. But have a guess what you think the minimum age is to go unaccompanied into a museum in some museums? Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, I'd expect that it would probably be 16. That feels like a reasonable age. Paul Marden: There are museums where you have to be 18 to go unaccompanied into the museum. Oz Austwick: Why? Paul Marden: You can go and get a job, you can go and pay your taxes, but you can't go into the museums on your own because you're not a responsible adult. That's interesting. And I use that word with a great deal of misuse. Oz Austwick: Yeah. I just struggle to work out how you could justify that. Paul Marden: I know. Oz Austwick: Well, obviously there are one or two museums out there where you probably need to be 18 to go in and have a look. Yeah. I mean, in general, why 18? Paul Marden: Yeah, I think standards of behaviour, you can expect people to behave in a certain way, but that doesn't. That's not dependent on age, that's dependent on your behaviour. Oz Austwick: And the sort of teenager that genuinely wants to go into a museum is probably going to behave pretty well when they're in that museum. Paul Marden: Yeah, you'd think. So the next thing I might play into this, but one of the things the youth panel want is to see more youth groups being represented in the decision making process in museums, so that they better represent communities and highlight career pathways for young people. Including more working class histories in museums would help people feel more represented. I thought that was quite interesting. We've been to a few recently where we did not necessarily see stories of our background being well presented at the museum. Oz Austwick: Yes. Paul Marden: Enough for both of us to have noticed it and commented it as we were wandering around. Oz Austwick: It's interesting because some do it really well. Paul Marden: Yeah. Oz Austwick: And coming from a historical background with a focus on arms and armour, there's a real issue that the sort of arms and armour that have survived from the mediaeval period are the unusual ones and they're the ones in the museum. So that's what people see. And you kind of assume that this fancy, ornate, decorated, enamelled armour is pretty standard, but the bog standard stuff didn't survive and maybe that's the issue when you're looking at furniture in a room, in a house, the fancy furniture is the one that survived because people cared about it. It wasn't being used on a day to day basis. Paul Marden: Yeah. Oz Austwick: Yeah. I don't know, but you're absolutely right, it does give you a slightly skewed view of what's actually out there. Paul Marden: Yeah. Look, if you're interested listeners, in finding out more about what the Kids in Museums Youth Panel are looking to achieve, they've just published an open letter to changemakers within the sector where they talk passionately about what they think the sector needs to do to change. There's a lovely video that goes alongside the open letter where these young people are using their voice to be able to advocate for change. It's great, it's really interesting and I highly recommend everybody goes and watches the video and reads the letter and then does something about it. Oz Austwick: So, anything else from M+H  that we need to talk about? Paul Marden: The lovely meal and drinks afterwards. The very lovely Bala McAlin and Stephen Spencer, both once of these parts, were hosting an event Wednesday evening, I think it was, which was absolutely lovely. Well attended. Drinks flowed, food came out. It was delightful. Very much appreciated. Oz Austwick: Yeah. And I have very mixed feelings about the fact that I decided to leave a little bit early. Paul Marden: But you got home at a reasonable time and I didn't manage to drag my backside in the front door until about half midnight. And it wasn't because I had a wonderful night, it was because I spent most of it in Waterloo station trying to get home. Oz Austwick: Yeah. A bit of an issue with the train. Paul Marden: Yes. I would much preferred if I'd actually stayed at the drinks event and then dragged myself into Waterloo later once they'd actually sorted themselves out. Oz Austwick: So I think at this point we probably need to talk about how the government have ruined our plans for the next few months of podcast content. Paul Marden: Yes.Oz Austwick: Because we've been thinking for a little while that it would be a really nice thing to do to talk to the main political parties about their idea for the visitor attraction industry in the future. And obviously our hands been forced a little bit. Paul Marden: It hasn't it? We're not the only ones. I think quite a few people were caught on the hop a little bit when Rishi announced the general election on the 4th of  July. So, yeah, events, dear boy, have somewhat overtaken us, haven't they? Oz Austwick: Yeah, just a little. So, yeah, we're probably not going to do that if for no other reason that the Labour Party shadow minister isn't standing again, for all the right reasons. But it does mean that there's a bit of an imbalance there and if we can't talk to all the parties equally and get their ideas, we probably shouldn't talk to any of them. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Oz Austwick: That being said, we can still talk about it, right? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. The lovely people at ALVA Bernard, who presented at M+H and talked about this very subject, amongst other things, they've done a lot of policy work and have prepared some thoughts around what they think is important to the sector, around strengthening the visitor economy, protecting arts and culture and heritage and supporting the natural environment, whilst at the same time looking after all of those people that either work or give up their time to support the sector. So, yeah, there's a few things in there that I thought it was worth us just touching on, because I think it's really important that we think about what the future of the sector could look like in just a very few weeks time as the country changes. They've got some interesting thoughts. Paul Marden: Unsurprisingly, the sector would probably benefit from some reduced taxation and there's quite a number of different areas within which ALVA think that the taxation burden on the sector could be lessened. And similarly, they've also got ideas around how funding for the various arts councils and support organisations around the different home nations would make a substantial difference, especially around capital funding would make a big difference to the sector. But there was a few very specific arts which jumped out as me, as being kind of. They really meant something to me. So there's one. ALVA says, “They ask all the political parties to ensure culture, life, performance, arts, heritage and nature are experienced by every child and young person and are within the national curriculum.” Yeah, I think this is so important. Yeah, I think I've talked on the podcast before. Paul Marden: This was one of the big COVID victims. So many schools during COVID had to stop taking kids out and experiencing the outside world and going to day trips and the like. And I just. I think it is so important. It's really hard for many schools. They've got such a burden around meeting the curriculum, budget cuts, all of the calls on the staff time is so hard for them to prioritise day trips. But I've seen him in my own daughter's school. Just the powerful impact it has on the kids. They're a school where the kids barely spend a whole week in class. They're usually out doing something outside of school, which I just think is brilliant. And I got to tag along with them. A few months ago. We went to London. Paul Marden: We did the trip to the Science Museum, took the kids up on the train and on the tube, which was, let me tell you, quite scary. Oz Austwick: Did you manage to bring them all back? Paul Marden: Counted them in and counted them out and it was all good. It was all good. But then went into parliament and that was just brilliant. Taking a bunch of ten and eleven year olds into parliament and bless them, it was the tail end of the day. So they were all shattered. But they were so completely engaged by it. They saw Priti Patel walking through the central lobby. They saw all of these different ministers, their advisors, and they got to sit in the chamber of the House of Commons and seeing debate going on. It was all about Horizon scandal. It was just. It was such a brilliant day trip for the kids and how much does it enrich them.Paul Marden: Yeah, okay, me and Millie go to these places all the time, but, you know, there might be one or two kids in that school for whom this is the only time that they get to experience a day trip into London and see one of the big national museums and go in and enjoy parliament. I never got to go into parliament when I was Millie's age. Oz Austwick: No. And I think it's really important to say that. I mean, both you and I live in the southeast of the country in a relatively rural and affluent area and that even here with the schools that we've got, they're struggling to do this. And then when you look at what the inner city schools are having to deal with and some of the northern cities and northern towns where they're really struggling with population poverty up there, how are those kids getting similar opportunities? Paul Marden: Yeah. Oz Austwick: And the fact is they're not. Paul Marden: No, no. Oz Austwick: And that's something that I can't agree with ALVA more on this, that this needs to be prioritised because this is the future. Paul Marden: Yeah. Another area where we've had direct experience, from conversations we've been having recently is around supporting local authorities in their care of civic collections and culture. I mean, you've spoken to so many places recently, haven't you, where cultural budgets are just being eviscerated. Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've always had a kind of a love of finding those little obscure rural town museums because you find some amazing things in them. My local museum, it's a tiny little market town and they've got like a special area of Egyptian relics. They've got a mummy in a sarcophagus in this little museum that's what, four rooms? But they've got no funding. And there's so many times we're talking to museums like this. They know what they need and they know what they want, but they just don't have the money to be able to do it. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Oz Austwick: They come to us looking for a website and they're just struggling for budget to do anything. Paul Marden: Yeah, which is where things like that Bloomberg Connect app comes in, because when you look on the Bloomberg Connect site, you've got big national museums like National Portrait Gallery in there using the Connect app. But there were some little ones in there as well that I saw, you know, small local town museums just like the ones that you're describing in there using that app. Oz Austwick: I was looking through the app last night and my eye was caught by, I think it was Beverly Town Hall. I was born in Beverley, up in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and I sort of thought, “Oh, I'll have a look at that.” And I just got drawn in and it was just this amazing experience. I didn't even know Beverley had a town hall that was open to the public, nevermind that had a collection that you could view through the Bloomberg Connect app. So, yeah, I guess maybe a little bit more in the way of awareness, but it shouldn't be down to a philanthropic organisation like Bloomberg to keep these museums and collections going. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So look, the ALVA kios of the political parties is up there on their main website. Really worth going and looking at. As the manifestos are published, you'll be able to see what the political parties are doing. There's already some information on the various different party websites around what they want to do within the culture and tourism sectors. But I think we've got a few weeks yet to wait until we see the actual cast iron commitments come out in manifestos. So that'll be interesting to see the direction that takes. Oz Austwick: And I suspect we're going to talk about this a little bit more over the next few episodes, perhaps. Paul Marden: Yeah, maybe. The other thing I will mention, this is a shameless plug because I work as a trustee at Kids in Museums. We're working on this flagship awards ceremony and it is absolutely delightful event lots of people enjoying themselves doing amazing work and there is a sponsorship opportunity. So if you're like us, one of those kind of sector supporting organisations that serve the attraction sector, and you'd like to support the good work of Kids in Museums and be associated with that amazing event, give me a shout, because I can point you in the direction of the right people to talk to get that sponsorship in place and I know it will make a massive difference to them. Have you been busy recently? What have you been up to? Oz Austwick: Do you know what? Weirdly, it's been a little bit busy. Yeah. I mean it feels like it's always a little bit busy, but it's been specifically a little bit busy because as of yesterday we've launched the third annual Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey. Paul Marden: Excellent. Oz Austwick: That's quite a mouthful, isn't it? It'd be really nice to find a catchier name for it than that. Paul Marden: I always talk about naming is the hardest problem in computing, but naming is the hardest problem in marketing, I think. Oz Austwick: Yeah, let's be honest, what it's actually known is pretty much new survey brackets two. So it's the third one. The first one was a bit of an eye opener, the fact that there wasn't anything already out there and we did this and it was amazing. The second one, we tried to refine it and we got some really nice, interesting data. This is probably the first time we've been able to sit and look at it and go, “Right, okay, now we've got a couple of years worth of results. We can look at what we actually need to be asking and what's just out there because we want to ask, because it's interesting and what information we're not actually getting.”Oz Austwick: So we've really cut back on the number of questions and I think it's probably safe to say that isn't going to have a massive impact on the quality of the information that we get, but it's also allowed us to add in a few extra little bits as well. So yeah, we're talking about sustainability and the use of AI and yeah, I'm really excited. Paul Marden: Yeah. Oz Austwick: I haven't actually looked to see if people have started filling it. Paul Marden: I can't look, I can't look. I just kind of want to look through my fingers. Oz Austwick: I'm not sure I want to know, but yeah. So if you are listening to this, if you've got this far into the podcast and you work at a visitor attraction, please go and fill this in. There's a link in the show notes. There's links on LinkedIn, on X. Everywhere we go. There will be a link for this. And if you can't find it, go to rubbercheese.com. And it's right there at the top of the homepage. There's a link. Paul Marden: Yeah. rubbercheese.com/survey, slip that right in there. Oz Austwick: Yeah. I think one of the things we've done differently is the advisory board. We talked about this a little bit in the last episode. We did what an amazing thing to have these guys on board. I think they've saved us months of work by just being clever. Paul Marden: They've improved the quality of what we've done. Asking us, what on earth are you asking that question for? Those answers are exactly the same answer. Can't you make it easier for me to know what I need to gather before I type my data in? Oz Austwick: Exactly, saying, “Oh, well, I wouldn't fill it in because you don't tell me what I need to do.” Okay, well, we'll do that. It's not a problem. Yeah. How amazing. So thank you to them and to Expian for sponsoring the advisory board. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. And we're working through now focusing on the kind of engagement plan to increase more people. And then, you know, whilst we have a lull as people are going to be filling in their survey, we'll start planning, looking at the data, seeing where the stories lie. We'll talk about that in some future episodes, but starting to gather together what the final report looks like and the stories that will be told. And, you know, we're really grateful to Convious for sponsoring us on the digital survey and the digital report that will follow and then a bunch of webinars that will run afterwards. So, you know, the call to action for us is get in there, find your data, read the guidance notes, go and fill in the survey. Paul Marden: But then once you've done that, come and talk to us because, you know, we'd love to know what you would like us to dig in to. It is amazing how this rich resource of data that we've got and people ask us questions that we've never even thought of, and we look at the data differently and we find a different story in there. So without your input, without you telling us what's interesting you, with what's bothering you, what's challenging you, we don't look at the data properly and we don't find those stories for you. So come and talk to us. Oz Austwick: Is this how it feels to kind of run a museum, to be the custodian of this amazing thing and just want people to come and engage with it. Yes, because that's kind of it. You know, we've got this amazing data and it's got all of these wonderful stories within it that are relevant to anyone in the industry and we just want to talk about it. So, yeah, please fill in the survey, talk to us about it and, yeah, with any luck, this one will be bigger and better than the last two. Paul Marden: There we go. Couldn't ask for more than that, could we? Oz Austwick: No. Before we go, because we're going to wrap up relatively soon, there's one thing that I noticed that we failed to do last time and we talk a lot about giving away a book and I think we even said we were giving away a book in the last episode and then never mentioned a book. So, Paul, do you have a book that you'd like to recommend? Paul Marden: Do you know what, Oz? It's funny you should say that. I absolutely do. I have this book Delivering the Visitor Experience by also previously of these parts, Rachel Mackay, who is, I believe, at Hampton Court Palace, and she's written an amazing book about what it is to create, manage and develop unforgettable vista experiences at museums. I don't want a museum, but it was really interesting for me to be able to read this book all about the process that people that do run museums go through to develop, craft and tell that story and give that amazing experience. It's a brilliant book. Heartily recommend it. And if you retweet the show note saying, “I want Paul's book”, then you too could get an amazing copy of Delivering the Visitor Experience by our friend Rachel Mackay. Oz Austwick: Amazing. Thanks very much. Paul Marden: Slightly out of breath because it will be edited out, I'm sure, but I had to run up the corridor and go find the book and take it off the shelf and bring it down because although I was completely organised with all my stuff from M+H show, did not have my book recommendation. Well, there you go. I think that just about wraps us up, doesn't it? It's been a busy few weeks for us with M+H show and all that's going on and that doesn't look to abate over the next few months as we get the survey into shape and find out what's happening in the sector. Oz Austwick: So I think it's only going to get busier. Paul Marden: It is. How is this your first time actually hosting? Oz Austwick: I think I prefer this one. Maybe that's because it's not my first one. Or maybe it's just because I. Paul Marden: Because you're power hungry and you took the captain's chair. Oz Austwick: Make it so. Yeah, definitely Picard rather than Kirk. But that's because he's a West Yorkshire man. Paul Marden: Is he really? You've got too much hair to be Picard. I'm sorry.Oz Austwick:  I'm not wearing my Star Trek uniform.Paul Marden: On that bombshell. Thank you very much, mate. Oz Austwick: Thank you. Oz Austwick: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on X for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm. The 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the report now for invaluable insights and actionable recommendations!

Andrew fills us in on what's happening at the Preserve.

“People can't fall in love with your park if they're lost." Key Moments 03:49 Law enforcement rangers use interpretation to influence. 07:05 Expanding park interpretive products for diverse experiences. 09:56 Framework for visitor experience in parks and its application across different contexts. 13:53 Problem-solving strategies for adaptation. 19:08 ROI of interpretive programs for park rangers. 21:54 The challenges of parks to increase diversity amid visitor influx. 23:14 Diversity and inclusion in State Parks for better representation. Connect with Ky The Visitor Experience website Ky Harkey on LinkedIn Resources www.parkleaders.com https://parkleaders.com/about/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/theparkleaders/ Finding the Return on Investment in Interpretation Interpretation plays a vital role in attracting, entertaining, and educating diverse users. One person with a lot of experience in this area is Ky Harkey, former director of interpretation for Texas State Parks and now founder of The Visitor Experience. His expertise in interpretation and visitor experience helps park leaders improve the relevance and inclusivity of their programs and services. During our conversation Ky shares some of the ways we can enhance the visitor experience, increase diversity in visitorship, and create a more engaging and impactful park environment for everyone. Key Takeaways from this conversation: Interpretation & Business: The concept of "entrepreneurial park rangers" reflects the need for the park industry to approach management and services as a business. This will help them effectively solve the challenges and drive impact. Stewardship Staircase: The framework of the "staircase of the visitor experience" encompasses the 5 core services along the Staircase to Stewardship. It provides a strategic way to guide visitors towards stewardship and reflects the diversity of the communities the parks serve. Diversity in Visitorship: Interpretation plays a vital role in attracting and engaging diverse users by sharing under-told stories of natural and cultural history, providing relevance, and fostering connections leading to moments of impact. Make sure you listen to the full episode to gain insights into the visitor experience and the influence of interpretation in shaping the future of parks. To learn more about Ky's work and get access to a self-assessment tool to evaluate your visitor services, visit thevisitorexperience.org. Consider ways you can embrace the transformative power of interpretation and entrepreneurial innovation to grow the experiences that have a positive impact of parks and conservation.

The Staircase To Stewardship Concept is a great way to think about visitor engagement. Ky Harkey joins Donald Forgione on the Tailgate to discuss this engaging concept.   Ky Harkey founded The Visitor Experience to spread joy and protect public lands through wildly successful visitor experiences. Ky honed his approach to Visitor Experience Design during a 10-year career serving Texas State Parks. As Interpretation Director, he led 35 program staff and 65 field Interpreters to develop projects and products which engage new audiences and improve 10 million annual visits. Ky facilitated the National Collaboration of State Park Interpretation Directors from 2017-2022. He's also spent time as a NOLS Backpacking Instructor, Wilderness EMT, and active leader in the Children in Nature Network. When he's not helping parks, he's playing in them. Ky has visited all 88 Texas State Parks, 26 National Parks, and he founded the longest backpacking route in Texas.  ky@thevisitorexperience.org   donald@tailgate-talks.com 

Join us on the latest episode of Northeast Newscast as we embark on an exciting journey with Michael Bushnell and Director of Visitor Experience and Public Programs, Paul Gutierrez. They take us through the dynamic developments at the Kansas City Museum Soda Foundation, specifically focusing on the intriguing Elixir. Immerse yourself in the vibrant atmosphere as we explore the happenings at the bar and delve into the behind-the-scenes of Elixir.But that's not all – Michael Bushnell collaborates with Culinary Associate Ernesto Canales to add a dash of fun to the episode. Together, they concoct a delightful cocktail that adds a flavorful twist to our podcast adventure. Don't miss out on the creative concoctions that await you on this episode of Northeast Newscast. 

Utah Avalanche Center forecast (3:33), Summit County Councilmember Chris Robinson recaps Wednesday's meeting (8:15), Director of Exhibits and Visitor Experience for Swaner Preserve & EcoCenter Hunter Klingensmith has details on the new snow exhibit (22:19), Park City wildlife activists hit roadblocks on their attempts to make SR 224 safer for drivers and animals (28:23), High Valley Transit bus overheats on morning commute (30:57), Heber temple referendum backers to pursue other methods after signature efforts (31:40),Park City water department calling for 10% rate increase (33:32), Former director of Women's Inspired Network (WIN) Kathleen Barlow and new director Kirsten Gunnerud talk about the upcoming re-emerging meeting February 6 (35:56), Deer Valley owner raises $3 billion to improve properties, acquire new ones (44:18), and Utahns can follow legislation through new media coalition project (45:58)

Making a museum accessible has become a popular topic of discussion throughout museums worldwide. In this episode, we share the varied accessibility efforts being made at SUMA. Our very own Alyssa Thomas, SUMA's Coordinator of Visitor Experience, has done great work making our space more welcoming and inclusive for all visitors. Alyssa shares the importance of continuous advocacy for the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), which faced national legislative opposition in 2018, however, did not get enough votes to pass. Join our host, Emily Ronquillo, and Alyssa, as they also discuss 'Breaking Barriers', a state-wide accessibility training in Utah (provided by the Utah Division of Arts and Museums), and why accessibility should be at the forefront of our efforts at SUMA. We found the following articles to add additional context to our conversation. We've also included a link for information about the Utah Division of Arts and Museums training 'Breaking Barriers': MuseumNext: Making Museums Accessible to Those With Disabilities American Alliance of Museums: Museum Accessibility: An Art and a Science NPR: The ADA was a victory for the disabled community, but we need more. My life shows why Utah Division of Arts and Museums: Breaking Barriers

Tech tourism- Google visitor experience Here is the pate de fruit. https://yanghaiying.etsy.com/listing/1610295614 Here is the bookmark: https://etsy.me/3RNhAXI Here is the passion fruit syrup: https://etsy.me/3QITU4l https://thecoldestwater.com/?ref=yanghaiyingyanghaiying Here is the lemon curd: https://bit.ly/3FS2o63 Here is my lemon curd class on skillshare: http://bit.ly/3FS2o63 Here is the Lemon curd: https://etsy.me/3Uh7jUg Here is the glass pots and cheese cloth: https://etsy.me/3dnFpF6 Here is my Etsy shop: https://www.etsy.com/shop/yanghaiying --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/haiying-yang/support

Whether you wake up to the roar of a lion in the morning or enjoy the serenity of the golf course, the visitor experience at Nemacolin is unmatched. On today's episode of the show, Adam talks with Christopher Baran, VP of sales and marketing, and Trey Matheu, managing director, about what it's like working at a five-star resort and what they do to ensure the visitor experience is fabulous. They also discuss the experience of being the filming location for a season of The Bachelor and what benefits they've seen come from that. “[Maggie] says she has two bosses: first is the guest, and second is the associates. When we start looking at things through that lens, it makes everything a lot clearer. We spend a lot of time talking to our associates, that's the most important job that I have as managing director, is to make sure that everybody that works at the resort has the tools necessary to do their jobs. -Trey Matheu Nemacolin Follow the Destination Marketing Podcast on social media: Instagram Twitter YouTube TikTok Do you want to be featured on the show? Send us a voice message! If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts! The Destination Marketing Podcast is a part of the Destination Marketing Podcast Network. It is hosted by Adam Stoker and produced by Relic. If you are interested in any of Relic's services,  please email adam@relicagency.com or visit www.relicagency.com. To learn more about the Destination Marketing Podcast network and to listen to our other shows, please visit www.thedmpn.com. If you are interested in joining the network, please email adam@relicagency.com.

Listen every weekday for a local newscast featuring town, county, state and regional headlines. It's the daily dose of news you need on Wyoming, Idaho and the Mountain West—all in four minutes or less. Fridays feature a roundup of KHOL's best stories of the week.

What if the best way to market an exhibition — wasn't marketing?What do we need to do better to help visitors find us in the first place? When they do, how do we engage them? When visitors arrive at our institutions, do they know where to go? What happens to the visitor's experience when we haven't thought enough about the restrooms, the stairs, or the endless line to get something to eat? Why do cultural institutions struggle with following up with visitors after they visit?Visitor experience expert Samir Bitar (The Art of Consulting) joins host Jonathan Alger (C&G Partners) to discuss The Visitor Engagement Lifecycle. Along the way: empathy training, why our technology ideas might not be what our visitors want, and how every project could use a visitors' advocate. (And the answer to that question about marketing.) Talking Points: Five main phases occur, spread along a journey before, during and after a visit.  For a visual, think of these phases arranged along a circle, not a straight line.  Phase 5 leads back to Phase 1, in a continuous cycle. Pre-Visit:1. Discover: Visitor is gathering information.2. Engage: Visitor is actively planning a visit, getting tickets, calling ahead. During Visit:3. Arrive: Visitor arrives on site, looking for orientation and direction.4. Experience: Visitor does the experience, uses amenities, makes purchases. Post-Visit:5. Followup: Visitor signs up for emails, gives feedback, becomes a member. Phase 5 now leads back to Phase 1. Guest Bio: Samir Bitar is a customer experience advisor, lecturer, and keynote speaker who helps organizations focus on the experiences of the people they serve. As the inaugural Director of Visitor Experience for the Smithsonian Institution he led a revitalization of the visitor experience across galleries, museums, and a zoo. In doing so, he helped transform an organization's relationship with its visitors. During his tenure, Samir pioneered the use of visitor journey mapping in museum planning and design, published a watershed study of visitors' museum experience, and produced the award-winning Hirshhorn Eye mobile app. In 2018, Samir stepped down from his position to open the National Veterans Memorial and Museum, and in 2019, founded The Art of Consulting. Through his firm, Samir works with organizations to embed new capacities that lead to a customer experience transformation.About:Making the Museum is hosted (podcast) and written (newsletter) by Jonathan Alger. This podcast is a project of C&G Partners | Design for Culture. Learn about the firm's creative work at: http://www.cgpartnersllc.comShow Links:Samir's Website:http://theartofconsulting.orgSamir's Email:samir@theartofconsulting.orgShow Contact:https://www.makingthemuseum.com/contacthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanalgeralger@cgpartnersllc.comhttps://www.cgpartnersllc.com  Newsletter:Like the episode? Subscribe to the newsletter! (It's the best way to know when a new podcast episode goes live.) Making the Museum is also a very short daily newsletter on exhibition planning for museum leaders, exhibition teams and visitor experience professionals. Subscribe here:www.makingthemuseum.com

In this week's episode, we have an extra large news roundup in place of our Deep Dive segment. We go over stories about Glacier officials responding to criticisms of their vehicle reservation system, Logan Health's integration with Billings Clinic, U.S. Rep. Ryan Zinke's latest trip to Whitefish and more. Visit DailyInterLake.com to stay up-to-date with the latest breaking news from the Flathead Valley and beyond. Support local journalism and subscribe to us! Watch this podcast and more on our YouTube Channel. Find us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Got a news tip, want to place an ad, or sponsor this podcast? Contact us!

Like wolves, orcas have been loved and loathed throughout history. What created this complicated relationship between humans and whales? And have we changed our attitudes toward them and their habitat needs in time to save them? Science writer and biologist Hanne Strager joins us to share: How a conversation in a cafeteria led her to remote corners of the world. Why her sister helped her be in two places at once. How she learned about whale dialects. Why the loss of a pod member matters so much. A discussion of the book The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2023). Today's book is: The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas, by Hanne Strager, which opens as intrepid biology student Hanne Strager volunteers to be the cook on a small research vessel in Norway's Lofoten Islands. This trip would inspire a decades-long journey to learn about the lives of killer whales—and an exploration of people's complex relationships with the biggest predators on earth. In The Killer Whale Journals, Strager brings us along with her as she battles the stormy Arctic seas of northern Norway with fellow biologists intent on decoding whale-song and dialects, interviews First Nations conservationists in Vancouver, observes Inuit hunters in Greenland, and witnesses the dismantling of black market "whale jails" in the Russian wilderness of Kamchatka. Featuring photographs from Paul Nicklen, The Killer Whale Journals reveals rare and intimate moments of connection with these fierce, brilliant predators. Our guest is: Hanne Strager, who is a biologist, whale researcher, and the future Director of Exhibitions and Visitor Experience at The Whale, a museum in Norway set to open in 2025. She cofounded a whale center in Norway and has served as the Director of Exhibitions at the Natural History Museum of Denmark. She is the author of A Modest Genius: The Story of Darwin's Life and How His Ideas Changed Everything, and The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas. Our host is: Dr. Christina Gessler, who holds a PhD in American history. She has served as creator and producer of the Academic Life since she launched it in 2020. The Academic Life is proud to be an academic partner of New Books Network. Listeners to this episode may also be interested in: This episode on wasps with Seirian Sumner This episode on Climate Change with Dr. Shuang-ye Wu This episode on why time spent in nature is good for you This episode on how our pets are family members This episode on gender bias in the study of science This episode on gender bias in medical school and the ER Welcome to the Academic Life! Join us here each week to learn from experts inside and outside the academy, and around the world, and embrace the broad definition of what it truly means to live an academic life. Missed any of the 150+ Academic Life episodes? You can find them all archived here. And check back soon: we're busy in the studio preparing new episodes for your academic journey—and beyond! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

Like wolves, orcas have been loved and loathed throughout history. What created this complicated relationship between humans and whales? And have we changed our attitudes toward them and their habitat needs in time to save them? Science writer and biologist Hanne Strager joins us to share: How a conversation in a cafeteria led her to remote corners of the world. Why her sister helped her be in two places at once. How she learned about whale dialects. Why the loss of a pod member matters so much. A discussion of the book The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2023). Today's book is: The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas, by Hanne Strager, which opens as intrepid biology student Hanne Strager volunteers to be the cook on a small research vessel in Norway's Lofoten Islands. This trip would inspire a decades-long journey to learn about the lives of killer whales—and an exploration of people's complex relationships with the biggest predators on earth. In The Killer Whale Journals, Strager brings us along with her as she battles the stormy Arctic seas of northern Norway with fellow biologists intent on decoding whale-song and dialects, interviews First Nations conservationists in Vancouver, observes Inuit hunters in Greenland, and witnesses the dismantling of black market "whale jails" in the Russian wilderness of Kamchatka. Featuring photographs from Paul Nicklen, The Killer Whale Journals reveals rare and intimate moments of connection with these fierce, brilliant predators. Our guest is: Hanne Strager, who is a biologist, whale researcher, and the future Director of Exhibitions and Visitor Experience at The Whale, a museum in Norway set to open in 2025. She cofounded a whale center in Norway and has served as the Director of Exhibitions at the Natural History Museum of Denmark. She is the author of A Modest Genius: The Story of Darwin's Life and How His Ideas Changed Everything, and The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas. Our host is: Dr. Christina Gessler, who holds a PhD in American history. She has served as creator and producer of the Academic Life since she launched it in 2020. The Academic Life is proud to be an academic partner of New Books Network. Listeners to this episode may also be interested in: This episode on wasps with Seirian Sumner This episode on Climate Change with Dr. Shuang-ye Wu This episode on why time spent in nature is good for you This episode on how our pets are family members This episode on gender bias in the study of science This episode on gender bias in medical school and the ER Welcome to the Academic Life! Join us here each week to learn from experts inside and outside the academy, and around the world, and embrace the broad definition of what it truly means to live an academic life. Missed any of the 150+ Academic Life episodes? You can find them all archived here. And check back soon: we're busy in the studio preparing new episodes for your academic journey—and beyond! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/environmental-studies

Like wolves, orcas have been loved and loathed throughout history. What created this complicated relationship between humans and whales? And have we changed our attitudes toward them and their habitat needs in time to save them? Science writer and biologist Hanne Strager joins us to share: How a conversation in a cafeteria led her to remote corners of the world. Why her sister helped her be in two places at once. How she learned about whale dialects. Why the loss of a pod member matters so much. A discussion of the book The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2023). Today's book is: The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas, by Hanne Strager, which opens as intrepid biology student Hanne Strager volunteers to be the cook on a small research vessel in Norway's Lofoten Islands. This trip would inspire a decades-long journey to learn about the lives of killer whales—and an exploration of people's complex relationships with the biggest predators on earth. In The Killer Whale Journals, Strager brings us along with her as she battles the stormy Arctic seas of northern Norway with fellow biologists intent on decoding whale-song and dialects, interviews First Nations conservationists in Vancouver, observes Inuit hunters in Greenland, and witnesses the dismantling of black market "whale jails" in the Russian wilderness of Kamchatka. Featuring photographs from Paul Nicklen, The Killer Whale Journals reveals rare and intimate moments of connection with these fierce, brilliant predators. Our guest is: Hanne Strager, who is a biologist, whale researcher, and the future Director of Exhibitions and Visitor Experience at The Whale, a museum in Norway set to open in 2025. She cofounded a whale center in Norway and has served as the Director of Exhibitions at the Natural History Museum of Denmark. She is the author of A Modest Genius: The Story of Darwin's Life and How His Ideas Changed Everything, and The Killer Whale Journals: Our Love and Fear of Orcas. Our host is: Dr. Christina Gessler, who holds a PhD in American history. She has served as creator and producer of the Academic Life since she launched it in 2020. The Academic Life is proud to be an academic partner of New Books Network. Listeners to this episode may also be interested in: This episode on wasps with Seirian Sumner This episode on Climate Change with Dr. Shuang-ye Wu This episode on why time spent in nature is good for you This episode on how our pets are family members This episode on gender bias in the study of science This episode on gender bias in medical school and the ER Welcome to the Academic Life! Join us here each week to learn from experts inside and outside the academy, and around the world, and embrace the broad definition of what it truly means to live an academic life. Missed any of the 150+ Academic Life episodes? You can find them all archived here. And check back soon: we're busy in the studio preparing new episodes for your academic journey—and beyond! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/academic-life

On this week's episode of the Northeast Newscast, we're discussing the KC Rainbow Tour. Publisher Michael Bushnell is joined in the studio by Kansas City Museum Director of Visitor Experience and Public Programming Paul Gutierrez, KC Rainbow Tour founder Joel Barrett, Kansas City Museum Curator of Collections Lisa Shockley, and Kansas City Museum Director of Collections and Curatorial Affairs Denise Morrison. They discuss the tour of LGBTQ+ history in Kansas City, launching this weekend at the Kansas City Museum from 2-3 p.m. on June 3.

A brand new café is opening today at Cape Spear. The Morning Show's Jessica Singer will be getting an exclusive first look at the café and all the sweet treats its serving. She speaks with the co-owner of Postmaster's Bakery, Mark Murphy. Following this, we talk about the project coming full circle with the manager of Visitor Experience and National Historic Sites at Park Canada, Glenn Keough.

Clare County Council has commissioned a property condition survey of the county's Shannon Heritage Sites. Lambert Smith Hampton Commercial Real Estate Consultants have been appointed to carry out a technical audit of Bunratty Castle & Folk Park, Craggaunowen, Knappogue Castle & The Cliffs Of Moher Retail unit. Upon completion at the end of the year, a report will be submitted to the local authority which will act as the guideline for all future investment in maintenance, remedial and conservation works at the attractions. Clare County Council Director Of Tourism, Leonard Cleary says the examination will ensure the enhancement of the visitor experience.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: https://twitter.com/ChelsPhysicGdnhttps://www.chelseaphysicgarden.co.uk/https://twitter.com/FSampershttps://www.linkedin.com/in/frances-sampayo-6a4939100/ Frances Sampayo is the Deputy Director of Chelsea Physic Garden. In her day to day role she leads visitor experience, learning & public engagement, volunteering and interpretation. Ensuring that these areas are central to the organisations strategic vision.  Frances has worked for galleries, museums, heritage attractions, palaces, and now a botanic garden. She brings to life completely unique events at each site, ensuring they are rooted in people. This includes visitors, staff and collaborators. For Frances, the places she works often have many barriers for visitors, and programming offers the chance to break these down. You may not feel a botanic garden is for you, but why not start with a music night instead? The more complicated and creative the event, the better.  Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode I speak with Frances Sampayo, Deputy Director (Visitor Experience) at the Chelsea Physic Garden.We discuss the transformative journey the garden has been on with it's public programming calendar, and the exciting and unexpected outcomes that's brought the organisation.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on itunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue.Kelly Molson: Frances, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming to join me. Frances Sampayo: Oh, thank you so much. A longtime listener. So thrilled to be here. Kelly Molson: Always lovely to hear. Well, will you be thrilled after the icebreaker questions? Who knows? Let's go. Right, I want to know, when you go out for dinner, are you a starter and a main kind of gal or main and a pudding, or all three? I mean, you can have all three. Frances Sampayo: I think it's pudding, especially if it's Tiramisu. That's it. Decision made. Kelly Molson: Okay, so Tiramisu is on the menu. That's the one you're going for. That's it. That's the focus.Frances Sampayo: Yeah, I'd probably just have that over the main, to be honest. Kelly Molson: Do you know what? There is a pudding. Yeah. So there are pudding restaurants, though, aren't there, where you can go and yeah, there's one in Cambridge. I walked past it last week while were in town and it's basically just puddings. Frances Sampayo: Oh, great. Kelly Molson: You can have a main pudding, a starter pudding and a pudding. Frances Sampayo: I will never go there. That's too dangerous for me. But, yeah. Kelly Molson: Open invite to come and join me. I would go crumble all the way. Frances Sampayo: Oh, nice. Kelly Molson: Okay, good. If you had to pick one item to win a lifetime supply of, what would you pick? Frances Sampayo: Probably something really boring like sunblock, because I am so pale to that. That would be really handy for me. Kelly Molson: Well, we should all wear sunscreen. Very important. Doesn't matter about being pale. More important to not have skin cancer. Frances Sampayo: Very true. Very true. Kelly Molson: Okay, good. Final one. If you could be any fictional character, who would you like to be and why? Frances Sampayo: That is a great question. I would love to probably go into, like, a Regency novel, but I wouldn't want to be a main character. I'd probably just want to be someone on the sidelines who gets to see everything and just kind of fly on the wall and kind of see everything that's happening in these amazing worlds.  Yeah, that would be great. I like it. Yeah. Kelly Molson: What's the draw to that kind of era? Is it the architecture? Is it the clothing? Frances Sampayo: Can I give a real kind of sector answer? Kelly Molson: Absolutely.Frances Sampayo: Part one would be we so often use as filming locations, so there's a lot of Regency dramas. That would be great to see something like this happening in one of these spaces. And the second is, I once duty managed a kind of 18th century themed party at a site I worked where everyone was in fancy dress from the era. And it was amazing sharing people were just sheivelling as the evening went on, stockings were falling down, men had rouge on, all of those amazing things. And just seeing that come to life was amazing. So I'd love to kind of get to see it kind of happening in actual Regency time period, as opposed to just kind of as an event in the 21st century. Kelly Molson: I love that. Really kind of sets the tone for what we're going to talk about today as well, the events. All right, that was an excellent answer. Thank you. Right, Frances, what is your unpopular opinion? Frances Sampayo: So I'm not a fan of false Jeopardy, which is a big component of reality TV, particularly cooking shows, where someone will take a bite of food and then just the camera pauses for what feels like five minutes and they do all the close up shots of everyone looking really tense, and I just, "Oh, I hate it". So I know it's something very popular, it's in all the reality TV shows, but I always skip that bit, look at my phone or do something else. Kelly Molson: Just get on with it. Just get on with it. Frances Sampayo: Get on with it. Kelly Molson: Or you don't we don't need the drama or the tense. Frances Sampayo: Just put this poor person out of their misery. And you think it's better than anything, like, I could have ever even imagined I cooked. And you just dragging this poor person's emotional journey out. So, yeah, just think just get over it. Just do it. Tell them whether it's good or not. Kelly Molson: I like it. Yeah, I would like that. I'd just like to know yes or no. Don't keep me hanging around. It's like it causes more anxiety than you need it to be. Kelly Molson: I'm definitely one of those people. If someone says, can we have a chat on Monday? I'm like, can we just do it now? Do we need to wait over the weekend? Is it good or is it bad? Because I will just think about this continuously now for the week. So let's just get it out of the way. Frances Sampayo: Let's do it now. Yeah. My team liked me to do if I book in a catch up. We had to catch up, good thing. Catch up, constructive thing, just to help.Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really useful.Frances Sampayo: Because, again, it is that forced Jeopardy thing of, "Yeah, oh, no, I've got to wait the whole weekend and I don't know what this meeting is about". “It's a good thing. Ten minutes. It's fine, don't worry.”Kelly Molson: That's a really good positive tip, isn't it? Yes, but what if it's not a good day?Frances Sampayo: Then I'll call it something else. Kelly Molson: Okay. Catch up. Not okay. Frances Sampayo: Yes, catch up. It's all gone wrong. Kelly Molson: Okay, that is an excellent tip, I can say that. Share that with the team after our call. Thank you. We've got so much to talk about today. I'm really excited about this chat. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what they can expect at the Chelsea Physic Garden and then just a little bit about what your role is as well? Frances Sampayo: So Chelsea Physic Garden is a four acre garden. We're in Chelsea, as the name suggests, and we've got over four and a half thousand plants that you can come and see. So we've got a living collection. Most collections in museums are behind glass, but us is living, we have to take care of it and we've got an amazing team of gardeners that do that. So we call ourselves London's oldest outdoor classroom because we've always been a place for people to come and learn about plants. So we've got a really fantastic learning team, but we've also got a really dynamic engagement programme, which helps people connect in different ways to plants, because it can be quite intimidating, I think, particularly if you grew up in a city you don't know much about nature, you might not have had a garden. Frances Sampayo: So we've got a really dynamic programme, giving people lots of different entry points. This year, we turned 350. So in September, we're opening glass houses that have all been restored with support of the National Heritage Fund. So if you're going to come and visit and you've got a restoration project coming up, September is a great time to come to the garden. But we always say, whatever day you come, that's the best day to come, because you're going to see something no one else gets to see, because flowers can change one day to the next 1 hour to the next. So it's a really special place to come and just connect with nature, really. So that's a bit about the garden now, a bit about my role. I've got quite a broad role. So we're a small site, we're a small team. Frances Sampayo: And I think when you have a small site and a small team, you get jobs that actually have quite a lot within their remit. So I, as Deputy Director of the organisation, was brought in to bring a cohesive visitor experience across the site. And that meant I lead different teams that look after all of our people touch points. So visitors learning, public engagement volunteers and then everything that sits behind that holistically to give people a great visit or to support them in a different way. So safety, security facilities interpretation, that comes under my remit as well, because it's supporting that visitor experience ultimately. So it's quite a kind of unique role. It's really dynamic. Every single day is different. Can go from planning our ten year strategy to what's going to happen in the next ten minutes because the toilets have all overflown. Frances Sampayo: So it's really dynamic role and just like the garden. So it's great fun here. Kelly Molson: Yeah, it sounds it as well. So I think that when we spoke a few weeks ago, I came away from the call just thinking, wow, the remit of what you have there is quite phenomenal, the different things that you can be doing all the time. But I also thought, what a privilege it must be to be there, because, like you say, it is a living museum and it just must be incredible to see it change, literally on a daily basis. Frances Sampayo: Yeah, it's amazing. So we're recording this just after our Easter weekend, and I had a great time on Sunday, were out in the garden helping people do their Planet Hero trail to learn about how to be more sustainable. And the tulips just got a little bit of sun and suddenly they all opened up and they were just really expressive, dancing kind of around, and then a cloud came over and they all closed up again and you just think, I don't have a garden, I didn't grow up with a garden, grew up in a flat. And so you just get to see things that you never get to see before. Frances Sampayo: And it's been a real privilege to get to learn how the garden operates over the year and to see there are plants now that I think I can't wait until May, because I'll get to see that in flower and it's really amazing. Kelly Molson: Wow. Well, that's kind of what we're going to talk about today, because as an organisation, you've been on a bit of a transformative journey with your public programming, and a lot of that is about kind of education and getting people to kind of understand what you have there and how things grow and how that all works together. But I kind of want to just go back and talk about, what the starting point for this journey? How did that come about, where did that start? Frances Sampayo: Yeah, and it really has been a journey. So I joined the garden back in 2018 and we had a really established programme of walks, talks and workshops. So quite a formal learning programme. And it was really great, really established, always sold well. And I went on a conference with LEAF, which is the London Environmental Education Forum, and as I was talking to people, they heard I was from Chelsea Physic Garden, and they go, “Oh, I love that workshop you do. We do one similar.” And I started to understand that actually, our programme had been an inspiration point for a lot of people, which is great, we love a bit of professional learning, but of course, that's our competitors. Frances Sampayo: So that was a starting point for me to think, we need to think about something new and then we have the kind of emergence of the experience economy. And we had retailers on the King's road, like Anthropology, running wreath making sessions, floristry sessions. And it really alerted me to the fact that, actually, if we didn't diversify our programme, if we didn't start thinking a bit differently, not only were our competitors going to catch up, but actually other sites that we would never have thought of as competitors because of the new kind of economic model. So, yeah, it was a really important moment for us to start thinking differently. Kelly Molson: That's crazy, isn't it? Because that's the comparison that was made quite a lot, I think, during and after the pandemic, is that attractions, you're now competing with things like Netflix, and you would never have considered that before. So that's really interesting to hear you make that kind of comparison to retail. And that's not something that I would have considered before either. Frances Sampayo: No, it was amazing. I wanted to sign up for a lot of these in person classes. I'm the kind of heritage person and I'm being taken by the retail model, so I've got to try and bring it back. So, yeah, that was a big starting point. And, yeah, as you say, kind of Netflix. You can sit and watch, you could sit on YouTube and just watch a plant grow and on a time lapse for 20 minutes and you say, “Oh, no, actually, you want to get out into nature. So how are we going to get those people here?”Kelly Molson:  Yeah. So what kind of objectives did you set for the programme? Frances Sampayo: So I've got to be honest, I'm not the best at kind of setting formal objectives, particularly, I think, because this programme was really around culture change and I think whenever you bring people into doing a cultural shift within an organisation, they're going to bring new ideas. So I didn't set kind of formal objectives and say, we're going to achieve 20% increase in this or that. I've done that in other areas, but it didn't feel right to do that with our public programme. So what we did instead was talk about giving people more kind of creativity to create new programmes. So kind of, what can we do that's new that we haven't done before? What have you always really wanted to try but haven't been able to? Because this is the time for us to try and fail and learn and adapt. Frances Sampayo: And actually, what sits behind that the kind of team don't always pick up on, is you're introducing a feedback cycle and you're saying, actually, we're going to evaluate everything. And we haven't necessarily had that culture where we listen to what people responded to within our sessions that they liked, that they didn't like. So we wanted to start that feedback loop and then ultimately, we wanted to future proof our programme. So we need new audiences, we've got to diversify our model, become financially sustainable. So those are the kind of key areas I really wanted to push, but I didn't kind of set them as specific objectives. They all kind of developed naturally as more people get involved, we're able to expand the ambition. Frances Sampayo: And now, five years on, we've got our own public programme manager, so it's really become embedded and they're going to again challenge us and push us up a whole other level. So it's been really brilliant to let it grow, but set a kind, of course, I guess, for how we want to deliver it and how we want to change. Kelly Molson: I'm really interested to know what's changed. So what was a kind of typical programme previously and what does your programme look like now? Like, how brave have people been? Frances Sampayo: Yeah, we've been pretty brave. It's been a big change. So I think the first area where there's really been a shift is moving away from an academic forum. So being a learning space for 350 years, that really carried into our learning programme and all of our public programmes. So even sessions where were getting people to do botanical soap making, that started with a formal lecture, really, about what the botanicals were you were going to use, why they were so brilliant. So we've really shifted away from that and we put that same information into our sessions, but not in a formal way. It's much more informal, much more exciting, and people learn through connecting with the plant itself, as opposed to being told with a presentation and some slides, this is how brilliant lemon is, or things like that. Frances Sampayo: So that shift away from the academic has been really fundamental, but you might not necessarily notice that kind of straight away with the session that's more in terms of the content. We've also looked at our accessibility, so we've got a broader range of price points now, a broader range of length of sessions. So we used to have sessions that were a full day or a half day and that was it. Now people are a lot more time poor, so we've got some sessions that are an hour, some that are 2 hours, a full day or even multiple days, but people can select now what they want and there's a much better variety. So we're seeing we get a lot more visitors come onto a kind of two hour session instead of a four hour half day. Frances Sampayo: And our youth panel also talked to us about the different price points and making the journey a lot easier to buying a ticket. So we've got lower price points now. And also you don't have to buy a ticket to the garden on top of buying a ticket to an event, which has been a big shift. So those are kind of some behind the scenes things, which are pretty bold, but not the kind of glamorous thing. But in terms of that kind of more dynamic programming, we did a lot during the pandemic because of being an outdoor attraction, so we had some ideas that were kind of on the back burner that were able to bring forward. So were able to launch Plant Fair when outdoor retail returned, which was brilliant. Frances Sampayo: We were able to introduce a series of concerts on the lawn called The Lawn Session, so those music nights have stayed, and also Family Theatre, which we hadn't done before in the garden, so we now do that every year. So were able to bring in some really new programming, which was really bold for us as a site, because we hadn't really connected with those audiences or felt like audiences that would go to a music night would come to the garden. So that was really great fun. But the most bold programme we launched was our Dash of Lavender programme, so that's LGBTQ plus History Month celebration, and that happens in February. So we've got an exhibition in the garden and then lots of different events, from poetry nights to drawing workshops. Frances Sampayo: And this year, our volunteer guides also got involved and they launched tours around the garden to tell people more about LGBTQ history and horticulture, which was really fantastic, because that, again, is an example of growing support for the programme bit by bit, and people saying, “Okay, now I understand what this is. I want to get more involved.” And we've been supported through that by an amazing partner called Sixto, who runs Queer botany, who's just a great presence within the sector and doing amazing things. I'm sure everyone wants to work with them now, which is really frustrating for us. Frances Sampayo: We love Six, though, but, yeah, that's been the kind of most dynamic programme that we've introduced and has had the biggest impact, but because we'd done all of those smaller steps, that it felt like a really natural progression for the site to do this and it's been really accepted and understood. Whereas previously, if we'd said we're going to do a History Month celebrating LGBTQ plus individuals, people really wouldn't have understood it. So it's made a huge impact. Kelly Molson: That is phenomenal to hear. It's really interesting. As you were talking, we just go back to the start of this section where you were talking about the soap making, and I thought, “Oh, that sounds really interesting. I'd probably like to do that.” But I probably wouldn't have booked onto the previous incarnation of it because I would have thought, "Maybe this is just a bit not for me". I'm kind of doing it because I'm interested in the fragrances and how you make them and that kind of side of it. I'm not sure I want to be lectured about the botanicals themselves, so it might put me off, so I guess it might put a lot of other people off. So have your audiences changed since you introduced the new programme? Kelly Molson: And it would be interesting to know if you set out and defined what you wanted those new audiences to be and how if you've achieved that. Frances Sampayo: Oh, great question. So we did do some kind of planning of new audiences and who we wanted to engage, but we also wanted to make sure we brought our existing audience and our members kind of along with us and make sure that they felt really taken care of. So, in terms of our existing audience, particularly our members, they're 50% of our visitor profile post pandemic, and they're predominantly white, female, cisgendered, able bodied, or potentially have kind of corrected sight through using glasses. They're retired. So that's our kind of core audience, if you will. So we wanted to make sure that we really supported them as well, so they have had some new benefits introduced, like a quiet hour at the garden in the morning, so kind of private access before everyone else comes in. Frances Sampayo: We also started running coffee mornings for them, social isolation is a really big challenge within the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. So we've got some older members of our membership community, so that helps them get involved. And they also get early access to a lot of our member events or a lot of our public programme events. So they feel like they're getting a lot of special treatment, but it's a lot of stuff that we would have been doing anyway. And I think that's helped them kind of come with us on the journey as we've brought in a lot of new audiences. So people under 40, families, people living within walking distance of the garden within a 30 minutes catchment, that's actually really quite a disruptive audience to bring in against that traditional model. Frances Sampayo: So we've got people who live in Wandsworth, Lambeth, Vauxhall, all really local to us, who wouldn't see the garden as a place for them. We've got people living in Battersea who are part of the new, amazing community in Battersea with all these developments, but they've got the park right next to them and we're on the other side of the Thames, so why do they want to come here? So it's really helped us establish we are here for local people. We've got things that interest under 40s, we've got things that interest families, but throughout all of that, we've really considered how we're going to bring our core audience on that journey with us. So, yeah, we've tried to balance it, but it has really changed. Kelly Molson: Were you worried about how, when you talked about what your existing kind of demographic was for your members and your audience, were you quite worried about how they might react to some of the new ideas that you were bringing in? Frances Sampayo: I wasn't really worried, if I'm completely honest. I think I knew that we were going to take care of them and I knew that some people would appreciate that and some people would really enjoy coming into the garden for a quiet hour in the morning or coming to a coffee morning. So I knew that some of the visitors that are part of that membership community would really enjoy that. And I thought, if they don't, that is kind of up to them to self select and not come to the garden. But ultimately we have to change because you can't exist for 350 years by standing still. And I think that is quite brave, I think, to say that. And it's not dismissive of our kind of core audience or our existing audience, it's just saying there's space for everyone, there's space for more people here. Frances Sampayo: And if you're not okay with that, you've got your quiet hour, you can come then. We're trying to accommodate you. But actually, if you want to come to Chelsea History Festival weekend, where we've got circus performers and a military band in the garden, come along to that. That's great. You're going to really have a good time if you want. So we kind of accepted that we might lose some visitors and I, unfortunately, sometimes get complaints from people about, "I've ruined the garden or I've ruined the atmosphere", but for every complaint I get like that, I get 20, "I would never have come here if you weren't doing this. And I discovered the garden because you had a poetry evening and I thought that was amazing, or I came on the lawn sessions for a date and now I'm coming back to see the collection in the day." Frances Sampayo: So it really is worth it and you just have to be kind of resilient and true to what you're doing and why and stick to it, because we're kind of here for people and we want as many people to enjoy the garden as possible. So there has to be a bit of disruption and a bit of change.Kelly Molson: Yeah. I mean, we all like to say that we don't like change, though, don't we? You're always going to get somebody who really don't like change and it's really uncomfortable for them, but you can't stay the same for those people. How do you think? Because this has all happened over quite a short period of time, really, hasn't it? I mean, we can throw COVID into the mix and I think it goes without saying, really, that everybody became a bit braver during that time, because it was a time of, "Well, let's just try it. What else could go wrong?" Right? But what do you think that you've been able to kind of change and adapt so quickly? Frances Sampayo: Yeah, so I think it's all about people. We've got a really amazing team here and they're really committed to what we're doing. I kind of label it as persistent, professional radicalism, which people enjoy, but that's kind of what we're doing. We want to make change, so we have to be persistent. We'll consider the fact that some visitors might not like it, but others will, and we've got data to support us and then we're kind of radical because that's just what we're doing, being really bold as we approach things. And this team of people that I get to work with, really kind of support that and want to work in that way. At the start, weren't all saying we're being radical at work and we're being really bold. People weren't necessarily comfortable with that. Frances Sampayo: So there were a lot of conversations that needed to have with people around, giving them permission to explore new things and say, "What are you excited about that we've never done in the garden before, that you think would be really cool that you'd want to come to, or what do you want to do?" And gradually people started understanding that actually there was permission for them to try new things and to work in new ways. So one of the learning team really wanted to learn more about podcasting. So brilliant. There's a training course on podcast. You go on that, you tell me why it would be good for the garden and if you can convince me, I'll back you up and we'll make sure that we kind of get this going and get you the equipment you need and the space you need. Frances Sampayo: So were able to do that and now we've got a really great podcast that's available in all good podcast places that you can listen to about the garden and it helps people that aren't here connect with it. And that just came from a mad idea from one of the teams saying, "Actually, I'd really like to learn a bit more about this, and were able to just kind of go with it." So empowering the team has been really key to that. And then also for me, I'm really lucky that our director, Sue Medway is really supportive of kind of what we're doing. And our trustee board as well have kind of become used to me coming in and saying, “Oh, we're now teaching children how to make broomsticks for Halloween.”Kelly Molson: It's such a great idea.Frances Sampayo: So it's so great and it's a sustainable way of using twigs, things like that. So we use all kind of organic well, all materials from the garden. They learn how to make them and yeah, cool, they get to pretend that they've got magic powers and can fly around the garden, but also they can take that home, they can help with the housework, they know a bit more about sustainable cleaning, don't have to buy a new broom. So there's all kinds of things that we're doing and people have just kind of accepted now that we're going to do things a bit differently. And when they open their kind of board papers, there might be something a bit mad in there, but they really enjoy it. So it's great. Kelly Molson: That is a brilliant idea and it kind of sums up the ethos of the whole place, right? You're teaching children to do something really fun with the things that you have there and they're learning about sustainability. It's absolutely perfect. Yeah, I really love that. I should probably book onto that podcasting workshop that you talked about as well. Add that to my list of things to do. When we talked a few weeks ago as well, I think you mentioned, I think you kind of mentioned, like, the 80 20 rule that we talk about quite frequently. About 80% of what you do is kind of in fixed once the programme is decided, but you have that kind of 20% of flexibility where if something is relevant, you can go, “Hey, we've got a little bit of space here, let's put something on.” So it's nice to be able to have that level of flexibility and kind of agileness about what you do. Frances Sampayo: Yeah, definitely. So, again, when I first joined, actually, that was something that were kind of not confident in. So by November, the whole following year would be planned and then the walks, talks and workshops, leaflets that were produced would talk you through the whole year. So we'd printed the whole year in advance. That was it. This is the programme, we're sticking to it. So now we kind of print only kind of two or three months in advance. And we also use QR codes a lot to say just check our website for what's happening. And that really gives us the space to be agile. So we now programme 80% and then it gives us that space that if you pick up a really amazing phone call from someone, can do an event. Frances Sampayo: We get a lot of really interesting artistic projects, we also get some really amazing kind of sell out events and it's actually we've got to have capacity to run that event again because it was so popular. So, yeah, that's been a really big shift, is just having that kind of 80 20 and it also helps the team with capacity management, I think, because sometimes when we get approached for things like we had this really amazing approach for kind of a shadow puppet theatre to come into the garden and it was a really interesting opportunity for us. It would have been a bit of a kind of learning curve, but we just didn't have capacity. Frances Sampayo: And it was really good to be able to say to the team, “Actually, we've already factored in five new events in the next four months, so do we think that we can build this one in as well? Because those are five new events that we haven't run before.” So it just made us a bit more kind of structured in our decision making process of what we could take on and couldn't. And so that went on the back burner and we said we potentially be available in the future. But yeah, it just makes us have decisions that are kind of really grounded, I guess, from what I'm saying. It seems like we just say yes to everything, but sometimes we do say no and think about whether something's right for us or whether we've got capacity for it. And 80 20 has really helped. Kelly Molson: Yeah, that felt like a considered no, not a reflex no, but actually with other things that we have on, we don't need to do this right now. We'd love to, but we don't need to. And that's a good position to be in, to be able to make that kind of decision. I would love to know what you've learned about it all and what's the one thing that surprised you the most about the process that you've been through? Frances Sampayo: Well, I've learned a lot. It's been a really amazing journey and obviously I've learned a lot just about our collection and from our horticultural team. But aside from that, it's really been about listening to people that your team are going to make you better, they're going to make your programme better, and sometimes you have to listen to challenge and critique just as much as you have to listen to positivity. I think that gives you a lot to learn from. And again, that's that feedback cycle and loop from earlier, I think it's really important to be excited and that makes your team excited about things and want to go the extra mile and put in the energy that it takes to get these things off the ground. Really about empowerment, that's been the key to the success, is just having an empowered team. Frances Sampayo: And I think particularly recently, I've been reflecting on just how important it is to be grateful. And I think I've learned a lot about being grateful not only to the team, but also to our visitors and our audiences that come here and the fact that they've chosen to come to us and making sure that we're grateful for that. So those have kind of been some recent learnings that I've been reflecting on. And then in terms of surprise, well, I think something that I wish I could have used as my answer to your earlier question about objectives and kind of what you set out to achieve actually came as a surprise to me. Frances Sampayo: So we've had at least three staff members and more volunteers cite the public programme as the way that they discovered the garden and also as part of their motivation for joining and wanting to apply. Yeah, so it's been really interesting, and I wish that I'd kind of gone into it at the beginning and kind of said, "Well, yeah, well, this is going to lead to an increase in applicants for jobs and diversity of applicants for jobs", but I just didn't really consider it as an outcome. And it's been great. And actually, one of our Cafe team who cited the Dash of Lavender programme as a motivation for joining went so above and beyond. During Dash of Lavender this year, they had the inclusive pride flag all over. Frances Sampayo: We had a whole range of lavender themed, like macaroons and desserts, and they really took it to another level, because they felt like we, as an organisation, were accepting of this programme and therefore would just really support them to deliver what they felt was their interpretation of the programme. And we did, even if that did mean having to have lavender themed macaroons every day, which is a really hard life. Kelly Molson: That sounds really tough. Frances Sampayo: Oh, no, what a shame. But, yeah, it was just brilliant because they really took it and ran with it and that just makes us better and hopefully our visitors will enjoy that as well. But, yeah, that was completely unexpected. Kelly Molson: That's such an amazing outcome, isn't it? And like you said, completely unexpected that they've really taken ownership of it. They've taken ownership of the programme and put more into it than you ever could have imagined. Frances Sampayo: Yeah, because I could never have done that. And I think I'm really lucky every single day here, because I work with such amazing people. I get to say, "Oh, brilliant. I get to represent everything that people have done and achieved and come up with". And that's just one of those completely unexpected outcomes, which is delicious and great fun. I think they even created a cocktail for out of hours events that transformed. So the cocktail started pink and then they poured in a blue gin and then it turned into a lavender colour. Kelly Molson: They really thought about it. Frances Sampayo: It was amazing. And then the visitors that came here, it's just such an added benefit. So, yeah, creativity comes from everywhere and it's brilliant to see.Kelly Molson: That is brilliant. Yeah, that's another question, actually, is unexpected outcomes. So that was one of the unexpected outcomes, which you had no idea that it could have been an objective that was achieved. But there's been some other things that have come out of this as well, hasn't there? Can you tell us a little bit about them? Frances Sampayo: Yeah, and it comes back to that idea that 80 20 and just having space to pick up the phone and have those conversations. So we do a lot more working in collaboration than we've ever done before. And I think it's maybe because we've caught people's attention as a partner and people are interested in what we're doing now, not just from that kind of LEAF forum, but a lot more dynamic organisations, not just kind of botanically rooted organisations. So many plant puns. I have to apologise, it's just what. Happens when you want to kit. Kelly Molson: We're pun agnostic on this brilliant show.Frances Sampayo: Yeah, one of my favourite activities that we've launched is the Chelsea History Festival, which we run in collaboration with the National Army Museum and the Royal Hospital, which are our neighbours along the Royal Hospital road. And the three of our sites are really different. We have really different audience bases, but we've come together for this week long festival each year and because of that, we've had a military band in the garden that would never have happened if we didn't collaborate and weren't open to collaborating. We've seen a real kind of increase in visitors because of that. And what's been interesting is a lot of visitors go to the National Army Museum because they have a soft play, so there's a lot of families that go there who now come here afterwards, and so they're actually going to both sites.Yeah. Kelly Molson: Oh, that's great.Frances Sampayo: Whereas before, they might have just gone to the Army Museum and not known that were here. So it's really brilliant for us to be doing that work in partnership. And the Royal Hospital are doing more and more to open up. Obviously, their primary function is to be a care home for the Chelsea Pensioners, that's their priority. But they are doing more to connect with the local community and so we're able to facilitate that, maybe host some things for them and just continue to work as a trio of sites as opposed to three independent institutions, which is really exciting moving forward. I think it's really going to change how we all operate. And so that's kind of one collaboration that we just wouldn't have happened if weren't open to working in that way. Frances Sampayo: And we've also launched Crossing the Floors with David Hingley, who's been on the podcast. I'm sure many people know that initiative to kind of link up front of house teams to get experience of working in different sites. Kelly Molson: Such a great idea. Frances Sampayo: It's such an amazing idea. And we're kind of completely different as a site, as an outdoor site. So a lot of people working in places might never have got to come to an outdoor site before. And they get to kind of see how we programme things, how we deliver activities in a very different way, very seasonal way, as opposed to kind of exhibition, programme driven. So that's been really interesting. And, yeah, other collaborations have just come from picking up the phone. We do a lot of work with the University of Westminster now to help blind and partially sighted people have a multisensory experience in a botanical garden, which doesn't sound you think? Well, yeah, of course it's multisensory being in a garden, but actually, you can't touch a lot of our collection. A lot of it's poisonous. Frances Sampayo: It's going to do you a lot of harm if you touch it. So, yeah, how do we kind of layer that in a safe way? So there's so much that can come from collaborating with different sites and, again, that just is going to improve everything we do here and we learn a lot. Kelly Molson: That's so good, isn't it? And I guess all of those things, by changing the programme, you've changed the profile of the garden and you've raised your kind of perception, or changed the perception of it to so many different audiences. And now those audiences will go to the attractions and the places that are next door to them, and yet you don't suffer any visitor loss from that. And likewise, because they're now coming to two of the different ones on the same day, it's just perfect. Frances Sampayo: Yeah, it's great. And hopefully in the future we'll be able to keep building on that as three sites and continue to work together. We're an independent charity, so every kind of penny we earn, we have to earn ourselves. NAM have got a different funding model, as have the Royal Hospital, so we've got a lot to learn as well from each other as organisations of how we approach things and what we need to consider, so it's even better for organisational learning as well. It's just going to help elevate everyone. And as you said earlier, I think people became a lot bolder following the pandemic in terms of sharing and wanting to help each other, whereas before were all very isolated, so that's really helped things. Kelly Molson: It's brilliant. Thank you for coming on to share this with us today. It's been so lovely to talk to you about it. We always ask our guests to share a book that they love, so have you prepared something for us today? Frances Sampayo: Yes, so that was a really hard question and I thought about the book that I've gifted the most. So last year I read Black Tudors by Miranda Kaufman. I don't know if anyone's recommended it previously. Kelly Molson: No, I don't think so. Frances Sampayo: So it's a really fantastic history book. And as someone who's worked at sites with kind of Tudor history in the past, it completely blew my mind to hear about how dynamic the range of black people were in Britain and beyond in the Tudor times, because we really don't get to hear about that. I think, kind of in traditional academic circles. So it's a great read and I think I gifted about five copies of it last year, so I think people would it's just brilliant and I hope someone gets to enjoy it. Kelly Molson: Well, listeners, as ever, if you want to listen, if you want to win a copy of Frances's book, you know what to do. Head over to our Twitter account. And if you retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Frances's book, then you might get the chance for us to gift you us to gift it to you, not Frances. She can save her pennies. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure. I don't know, you've sold it to me. I mean, I want to come and make a broomstick and some soap. Frances Sampayo: Yeah, soap and a broomstick. Kelly Molson: That's like my perfect day out. Frances Sampayo: That's our tagline for 2024, actually. Just visit garden. Soap and a broomstick. Kelly Molson: Sold. I'll order my ticket in advance. Thanks, Frances. Frances Sampayo: Thanks, Kelly. Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miloft/https://thebusinesscreative.com/ Mark Lofthouse is a themed entertainment creative and digital designer. During his 16-year career within the themed entertainment industry he's had the opportunities to work with theme parks, heritage sites and leisure facilities across Europe - creating fantastical experiences that wow audiences. His background spans varied roles from operations management of theme parks and head of business for a manufacturing business right through to the lead creative for scare mazes - this combination of creative and operational knowledge has helped him carve out a varied career that now sees him working with the biggest names in theme parks!The Business Creative are a Creative Agency specialising in entertainment experiences that connect an audience to a brand, in a real life environment. Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative and hopefully always interesting. In today's episode, I speak with Mark Lofthouse, an Immersive experience specialist. We discuss the career path Mark took to work in the sector and the four pillars you need to succeed as a creative designer in the theme park industry. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. Kelly Molson: It is so good to have you on the podcast. I feel like we've been talking about doing this for ages and we're finally here. Welcome. Mark Lofthouse: Thank you so much. Yeah, it does seem like it has been forever ago, doesn't it? Actually, that we started talking, but we're here, life is good. That is all we can ask for. Kelly Molson: Exactly. And we're going to have a good chat and good things are going to come from it. But first, I need to ask you some icebreaker questions. So what ingredients would you go for in your perfect sandwich? Mark Lofthouse: You know what I'm a bit of a fan of? I like chicken, but spiced chicken. I love a bit of cake in my life, so I'd have that. I'd have jalapenos on it, turkey, bit of lettuce, some onions, a bit of chorizo, if they've got it. Yeah, but that's like my perfect sandwich. And lots of chipotle sauce. The Southwest chipotle sauce is like to die for. It's my favourite thing ever. Kelly Molson: I love it. Mark likes a bit of hot stuff there. Yeah, you had me at chorizo. Not going to lie, you had me at chorizo. All right. Okay, good. If you could enter the Olympics for anything, what would you be Olympic level at? And when I say anything, I'm saying, like, the Olympics could be, like you could be like the Olympic baker or like, the Olympic complaining champion. What would you be like Olympic level at? Mark Lofthouse: I think I'd be like maybe jumping to conclusions. I think something like napping. Do you know what I think? Genuinely think that would be the best Olympic sport ever, wouldn't it? Kelly Molson: Olympic level napping? Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, because you know what, I work that much and I'm always on the go all of the time when I have a nap, I feel like I'm the best person ever at napping. So I think I genuinely would be the best at that. I'd win gold. Kelly Molson: Are you like one of these people that a nap anywhere? If I said to you, now you can go and have a 20 minutes nap if you want, you'd be like, yeah, I've done. And 20 minutes later you'd wake up, because it would take for me if someone gave me 20 minutes nap. I'd be like, oh, I've got to think about that for a while. And then I'll lay down. But I might look at my phone and then I might get a five minute nap out of that 20 minutes. Mark Lofthouse: Yeah. If you give me the opportunity to go and have a nap because it doesn't come around very often, I will be very good at that. I'm a very efficient napper. Kelly Molson: Okay, good. I like that. Efficient napper. Olympic level napper. Mark Lofthouse: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Gold medal. Kelly Molson: All right, final icebreaker. I would like to know what your favourite visitor attraction is. It's a really horrible question that I ask people who come on a visitor attraction focused podcast, but I'm intrigued to know what yours is. Mark Lofthouse: Right, I have two kind of contrasting ones. I'm always a fan of theme parks and specifically Fantasy Land in Germany is probably my favourite. And I think it's because it's quite hard to get that true immersive, which obviously that word is batted around so much, but to get that true escapism feel is really difficult to come by. But the park seems to do it seamlessly and I think I've always been such a huge fan and in admiration as well, of what they managed to achieve. So that is one of them. But I also love going to kind off the beaten track places that you think, you know what, let's give it a go, let's go and try and do it. And then it becomes one of the best places to visit. Mark Lofthouse: So one of them, as much as it's a visual attraction, it's kind of a natural attraction as well. So the fairy pools in the Isle of Skye, now, it's becoming more and more popular because of Instagram, but it's literally just a little ravine that comes through off the mountain with water coming through it. And it was the best day out I've ever had. Literally spent the entire day jumping in and out of natural pools and waterfalls. And honestly, it was just the best visitor attraction I've been to. But it was such a natural setting. It was completely natural. Wasn't man made at all, apart from the car park, that was it. And it was just the best. So if you're ever in the Isle of Skye, you have to go and do it. Kelly Molson: That sounds absolutely a bit of me, Mark. What an amazing place. Mark Lofthouse: Yeah. And the photos that I've got are just the best as well. I love them. I love looking back at them.Kelly Molson: Instagrammable moments it is all about. Oh, good. All right.All right. I like that. Okay. Your unpopular opinion I'm going to feel. Mark Lofthouse: About for saying this, and my connections on LinkedIn, please don't judge me for saying it. My unpopular opinion is that I'm much more excited about the products and experiences that Universal are creating over Disney. I know that it is quite controversial. So, again, this is kind of splitting hers because I love both of the companies, but I think from a proposition point of view, that the level of detail, the type of attraction, type of experiences that Universal are working on as a creative team. Not just in the park, but now they're opening this Halloween Horror Nights experience in Las Vegas, where it's nowhere near their park and the new park that they're opening in the States as well. I think it's just so exciting for that company. They just seem to be growing and growing and opening new avenues of business. Mark Lofthouse: And I think I love Disney, and that is an understatement. But I'm so much more excited about what Universal are putting out there at the moment. But it is an incredibly unpopular opinion when you voice that because there is such this tribe mentality between Universal and Disney. But there we go. I've said it. It's out there. Kelly Molson: All right, listeners, we need to know what your opinion is on Mark's. Are you agreeing with them or is this an unpopular opinion? Tweet us and let us know. Brave man, Mark, for the industry that you work in, brave. Mark Lofthouse: I probably just shot myself in the foot there. Kelly Molson: Maybe a tiny bit, but tell us what you do. Mark Lofthouse: I kind of a jack of all trades when it comes to visitor attractions and themed attractions, really. So, by heart, I'm a creative. I've been based in this for about 16 years now, working as a freelance creative for theme parks, heritage sites, leisure facilities. And that will be anything from coming up with marketing material, graphic design, digital design, right through to project management, event management, and overseeing creative concepts for them specifically in events, primarily. So, yeah, I've been doing that for 16 years now. So it covers such a wide variety of things to do. So one day I might be working with the Business Creative, who's an amazing creative agency who I work with a lot, and coming up with kind of concepts for Haven and Tui and these kind of leisure facilities. Mark Lofthouse: But then the day after, I might be working on a terrifying horror attraction in the USA, coming up with a branding, coming up with the proposition and what that is. So it's so varied, the work that I do, but I'm kind of an operational mindset in a creative body is the best way to explain it. Kelly Molson: It's a really weird combination. When we first got into contact, I kind of very much saw you as like a designer, like a graphic designer kind of thing. And I was like, “Oh, well, I can really relate to some of the stuff that you do because that was my background as well”. And then when we started talking, I was like, gosh, your role is really complex and quite unique in what you do. Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, absolutely. I think I've kind of just collected skills over the time that I've been working. So it's things from I've been a digital designer for a company and that's all I did. I created Decks, I did graphic design for companies and then the job I got after that was the operations manager of a theme park. So it's just that leap and that jump is really hard to explain to people. But I've got quite analytical mind and I've got quite a, like three put is my thing at theme park. So always having to look at efficiencies, especially in operations. So it was really weird for me to take the leap from creator to go, “do you know what, I'm going to go and do that”. And I just did it. Mark Lofthouse: I took a leap of faith, did it, thought I could do it, and it turned out really well for me. And it was such a I learned so many skills by doing it that it's kind of second nature now. So I've got a kind of desired skill set, which is operational mindset, but somebody who understands creative, who also understands the operations of it. Because it's the same with many companies where you have these incredible creative people who work there but it's really hard for them to understand how their creative idea can actually form a live experience because it's so different to go yet that works creatively on a piece of paper or on a computer. But then to actually go, well, that won't work because the corridors are too narrow to have that amount of guests passing through it and things. Mark Lofthouse: Whereas I kind of do all of it from beginning to end, which is a lot of work. But no, it's really good. It's just things that I've started to pick up and do and it's just kind of second age of doing now. It's just what I know. I don't know how to do any different apart from do that really it's brilliant. Kelly Molson: And I love talking to people about how they take their skills and how those skills kind of form their wiggly career path. What we're going to talk about today is about developing a creative career in theme park industry. And we're going touch a little bit on the mindset that you probably need for that as well. So my creative career started at I was at school. I had to pick what I wanted to do for my GCSEs. There was a media studies module that I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting for me". So there was an element of design. I was always kind of like into art very much on the kind of design, like the graphics and kind of illustration side. So there was a graphic design module, there was a photography module. There was like a media studies module. Kelly Molson: So I guess it was like really early filmmaking and things like that and all of those things. I was like, "Yeah, this is great". On from my GCSEs, I then focused on graphic design. So went to the local college, did my BTEC National Diploma. And then after you did that, I could either go and do the HND which was you apply to go to university or back then, this is quite a long time ago. It wasn't as difficult to get junior designer roles without those qualifications. So you could kind of, “What do you want to do? Do you want to go and do another couple of years at Uni or do you want to go and get a job? Kelly Molson: And I chose to go and get a job and kind of then my career went blah, blah, and we can talk about that another time. How did you with your mixed kind of bag of skills, how did you kind of start your creative career? Mark Lofthouse: It's really scary how similar we both are. So I in school was the same, got to buy options. I'd always since being a child, I've been obsessed with theme parks, always. And it always takes back to I always remember going to it was when Morecambe Frontierland was open, so we're talking early 90s. And I've got such strong core memories from that time going to theme parks. We used to go there quite a lot. Every summer we used to head over that way to the lakes and I've always been obsessed with it, so I always knew when I was in school I wanted to get involved somehow. Don't know how, I couldn't even predict how that was going to happen, but I was going to be involved. I was determined. Mark Lofthouse: I knew I was going to be involved within the themed attraction industry specifically. Don't know how, but I got to choose my options same as you pick graphic design, because I knew I was all right with the computer, I knew what I was doing, kind of found the way around. I did my entire coursework. Everything was on a theme park, branding theme park, obviously branding a theme park, currently park, marks park, collateral and that type of thing. I did really bad in my GCSE, I will admit. I didn't do the best. I didn't knuckle down when I needed to. I didn't spend the time regrettably. I wish I would have, I wish I'd have kind of focused more now, but I'm not hugely academic. I like to learn through experience and I do think it's just a mix, isn't it? Whether you're one or the other? Kelly Molson: Well, yeah, it is. And actually it's okay if you don't do that well in your GCSEs. And I think what we're going to talk about proves that it's absolutely okay to not do that well in your GCSEs. Mark Lofthouse: Absolutely. I've got two cousins at the moment and they're kind of going through that struggle, go with the like, “Oh, we did really well, but we can't find this and that and the other”. I'm like, everything works out. Everything happens for a reason. Everything works out. I'm a firm believer in it. Set school didn't do the best. And then I was like, right, I'm going to go to the local college. I did media production, funnily enough, and it was during them two years that I realised I hated it and didn't want to do it anymore. I finished, I got my coursework, but I was in that weird time there where I went, “What now what do I do? Where do I go? I didn't want to go to university”. I said, I'm not academic, didn't want to go. Mark Lofthouse: But what I had been doing, kind of simultaneous with the college work, was I got in touch with a company who produced Halloween attractions, because I love theme parks, I love Halloween events, halloween is my favourite time of year. So I got in touch with a company who was kind of prevalent in the UK, and they still are, called Atmosphere Scare Entertainment, and they just produce Halloween events primarily for clients all over Europe. And I got in touch with them and I became a performer for them for one Halloween, which was literally me sitting in some sheets, jumping out of people. That's my extent of performance. Everyone's got to start somewhere. Mark Lofthouse: But I got hooked and I got hooked into seeing visitors reactions to something that you'd worked on, something that you did and how you interacted with that, and I got really hooked in it. So I then got my qualifications, left college and then just started working with the company more and more. So it became I was a performer for the first year and then I had a bit of design work the year after. Bit more, bit more, and eventually ended up scaling up to I was working freelance for them, but I was the  Deputy Creative Director of the company by the age of 21. Kelly Molson: Gosh, wow. Yeah, that's a great turnaround from someone a minute ago was like, I did really badly in my GCSE. I'm Deputy Creative Director by 21.  Mark Lofthouse: The only thing that got me there was well, it was two things. And it was that undetermination. I knew I was going to do it. I enjoyed doing the work I was doing, I don't know, the same as everyone. When you enjoy doing something, you put more of yourself into it. There's a really beautiful Greek phrase called Meraki, which is to put yourself so much into something that it becomes part of you. And it's kind of just a philosophy I've always run with and I love the idea of it. So I kind of just scaled up with the company and that was kind of it. And that's how it happened. I left the company in 2017, I think it was where I became the event manager of a safari park, just because I had kind of event background and knew what I was doing. Mark Lofthouse: And then I had the opportunity after two years to go to Dreamland Margate to look at operations and have a look at guest experience. And I moved all the way down to Margate, lived in there for a season until the end of 2019 and then came home and the inevitable happened in February. So what happened to themed attraction? Isn't sure. What happened to entertainment? It just ceased to exist, obviously, when the pandemic hit. So I became the business operations manager of a manufacturing business, which I never thought I'd do, which was manufacturing hand sanitising liquid, which as you can imagine during that period was a very difficult job to be in. So, yeah, I did that and then that kind of leads me up to where I am now. Mark Lofthouse: I started working with the business creative a year back, looking after sort of the operations creative operations, and then now I'm a creative partner with them. So I develop the concepts, I work on branding, I work on decks, proposals, that type of thing for them, and help them kind of get into new business avenues, which themed entertainment, Immersive Entertainment, Immersive Theatre is primarily one that we're looking at. So that's kind of a little bit of a whirlwind tour of me. Kelly Molson: Gosh, I love that. Yeah, that's been really wiggly, isn't it, if we're talking about a wiggly career. What I liked is that one of my questions was going to be, did you always think that you would work in the sector, but obviously from a really early age you were quite focused on that was going to be your thing. And I think it's really interesting because a lot of it's not. It's definitely not what I did. I didn't ever think I thought I wanted to be a designer and I'd love to be a graphic designer, but I never actually pinpointed a specific sector or a specific role, even within graphic design. And it's interesting how something that you've focused on can really define where your career goes. Kelly Molson: But even if you don't, actually, you can kind of come to it a little bit later with the skill set that you gain along the way. Because if I look back now, if I hadn't worked in all the different roles that I had, I probably wouldn't have made it to running my own agency because I wouldn't have had the kind of variety of skill set that I needed to kind of do that, and I wouldn't have seen all the different ways that certain agencies run and how they operate to be able to get to that point. Mark Lofthouse: Definitely. I think you can't learn enough. You can always absorb, you can always take advice, you can always work on yourself. And I think you don't know who you're going to bump into along the way. Like, there's some clients that when I was 17 and 18, doing graphic designs from my laptop on my knee when I was watching TV, like, we've all been there. Some clients I met there are now just incredibly huge companies who are doing entertainment around the world. And I think you don't know who you're going to bump into. You've just got to make sure that you're presenting your positive, happy, good, self and reliable to work with. Because, trust me, the person you meet when you're 17, you don't know where they're going to be in ten years. Mark Lofthouse: They could be owning the biggest company on earth and you don't know. And I just think it's so important to make sure that any connections that you make, you try to keep them good. You try to keep a good connection with people, because you definitely meet people who you would never expect to see them again. But actually, they probably hire your services again in the future, or you might hire those. So it's so key, I think, just absorb and learn everything you possibly can from people. And so important. Kelly Molson: Yeah. So it's not just about what you're learning, it's about the connections that you're making along the way as well. That's really important from asking for feedback and asking for support from people. What I wanted to ask is, what kind of support did you get along the way? So you spoke really highly of your kind of ex manager that really supported you into that role at a considerably young age to be in that role. What kind of things did they do to support you on that journey? Mark Lofthouse: I think a lot of it was belief that actually they just believed in what I was doing. They believed that I could do that for the company and help them as well. And I think a lot of the time they mentor me. So actually, when I was designing things, when I was 19, 20, before I started getting more involved in it, I designed things a certain way, like, for example, a Halloween attraction, I'd be designing it and I'd think it was the most terrifying, scary thing ever. And it just wasn't realistic and feasible to deliver at all. And actually, I learned so much from them putting a helping hand on my shoulder and guiding me through that process and going, “Actually, if you change this way, it'll work, because this and this.”Mark Lofthouse: And I think having that mentorship from people and it wasn't just him. I've had it kind of through my life, and I know I've been fortunate to have that with people. But I think if you put yourself out there and say, “I need guidance, I need help,” the good people will come through and help you with it. And absolutely, I think we all work in this quite niche and small industry, and I know that there is competition for seeing companies, not a lot, but why not help people in need? And I think we've got this new generation of amazing artists coming through the ranks at the moment who have got a really good tech mind as well. And I think we need to nurture what they have. They've got this mindset that a lot of us don't have. We need to nurture that talent. Mark Lofthouse: We need to grow with it and help them out because they'll help us learn as well. I think it's just this whole learning circle that you might be helping someone, you might be, I was getting help at a certain age, but actually, then when I started to go back to say, but why are you doing it that way? And I kind of questioned, then he learned from me that way as well. And I think it's really key that actually it is a learning circle where if you question things as well, it really helps. And I think to kind of answer your question, I have been very fortunate. Mark Lofthouse: I know that I've had this kind of support throughout my career with people in so many different wide variety of industry, but it's about reaching out and connecting with them because how do they know that you need help? How do they know that you're there? You can't have this fear at all about connecting with people. And I've noticed, especially with on LinkedIn, people who are just coming out of university, people who are just going into university, they'll reach out on LinkedIn and say, "Can I have help with this?" Mark Lofthouse: Or "I didn't really want to ask, but can we just have a call?" And I was like, "Yeah, absolutely, go for it." Because I was in that position once and I think we all were. Mark Lofthouse: We've all had somebody who helps us in bad situations and I think we need to put that back out there because there's this kind of disconnect at the moment and it needs to go. We all need to help each other as much as possible to navigate the murky waters that we're currently in. Kelly Molson: Yeah, you're absolutely right. You've just reminded me of something that we spoke about when Danielle and Ross from Drayton Manor were on a few episodes back in. Danielle, she was super focused and she always knew that she wanted to work in the attraction sector, but she told a story about how she just basically just connected with everyone and anyone and everyone that she thought she could on LinkedIn in that sector and just asked them, just ask them for support. " "Can I come and do this for you? Can I come and do this? Or have you got any jobs? I'm really good at this. Help me." And I think that took me back a bit because I was like, it's absolutely the right thing to do. But how many, I think she was 17 at the time. How many 17 year olds would do that now? How many of them would put themselves out there to actually do that? And I think it's a good message to promote because somebody will help you. Of ten people that you contact, a couple of them will come back to you, right? That's a really good response rate and you will get that next step further along towards what you're trying to achieve. Mark Lofthouse: What's the worst that could happen? They ignore your message. Kelly Molson: Exactly. Mark Lofthouse: It's not the end of the world. You want to see my LinkedIn. If I want to connect with someone, or if I want to find out something or see if there's any collaboration efforts, I message every single person I want to connect with. Because why not? What is the worst that can happen? Someone's going to go, “Not today”. Doesn't affect me. Kelly Molson: It's what the platform's for connecting and chatting? Yeah, I've just done exactly the same. So a couple of weeks ago, I sent out about 30 DMs to people, all people that I'm connected with, but we've just never spoken. And I'm like, "Why have we never spoken? We should like, let's grab a virtual coffee." I've got calls booked in with, like, 15 of those people. I mean, shout out to the other 15 people who have ignored me, but, you know, that's fine. Like, what's the worst that can happen? They don't come back to you. People are busy, like, they're not always going to respond, but you might just hear at the right time with the right person. I've got a brilliant oh, my God, I've got a brilliant case study of that. Kelly Molson: So when we first started this podcast so we started this podcast in the middle of 2019. We did the first episode and that first season ran until, I think it was a thing, until the February March of 2020. And then were like, "Oh, my God, the world has ended. What is going on? Is anyone going to listen to a podcast without visitor attractions?" They're all shut and I was like, "no, actually, do you know what? People need something now. They need something uplifting, actually. If I can get people on that are willing to talk about the exact experience that they're going for, now, this is perfect, right? That's going to help loads of people.” Kelly Molson: And the people that I reached out to, genuinely, I was sending emails going, oh, God, I feel sick sending that email. They're going to look at it and go, who the h*** are they? Like, why would I go on your podcast? Everybody said yes. Honestly, everybody said yes. I messaged Lee Cockerel, the Ex VP of Disney on LinkedIn, and said, "Listen, just massive fan. We've got this podcast. Would you be up for chatting on it? It would mean the world to us." And he was like, "Yeah, absolutely." I could not believe it. Couldn't believe it. So you just take a chance. Mark Lofthouse: Do you know what? I think the fear of the unknown is worse than the fear of clicking send on a message and you need to get over it. Everyone does. And I think I've been in that position. I was. Like, "Oh, my, I can't connect with that. Imagine you're at Disney." That is, just say no.  And I think putting yourself out there is so important. I think there's obviously little tips and tricks that you can do on LinkedIn, but I do think you just need to put yourself out there and I think people will more than likely help and I think everyone's going to somewhere. And I think my advice for people starting in the industry wanting to get into it is connect with people, chat with people, ask for 10 or 15 minutes of their time. Mark Lofthouse: It's not a lot to jump on a call and if people say no, that's absolutely fine, move on to somebody else. I'll just do what we do and copy and paste the message and send it to loads of people. I'm joking. I don't really do that. Kelly Molson: I personalise all of my messages, Mark, thank you.  Mark Lofthouse: I do. Kelly Molson: You've defined that you have 4 pillars that you think you need to succeed in the industry. And I really want to talk about this. So we've got mindset, hard work, creativity and feedback. And we've talked a little bit about feedback, but I do want to come circle back to that. Can you kind of just talk us through those four pillars and explain kind of what you mean about those and why they're important for succeeding in a creative role in the theme park industry? Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, absolutely. I think we'll start with mindset. Let's face it, we're kind of in a doom and gloom place at the moment, where you read the news, you're in this dark place with the news, all you see online is social media, people representing themselves a certain way. You compare yourself to them. I think, especially in a creative world, you've got to take yourself out of your ordinary life, mindset wise. So if you're coming up with ideas, you're coming up with creative concepts. Forget everything that you know, forget everything that is going on in the world and just put yourself out there with it. I think it's so difficult as well. We all go through bad spells with our mental health, don't we? You think, nothing's getting done, I'm facing that brick wall. You will overcome it. Mark Lofthouse: And I think it's so easy, especially in the creative world, that when you get to a mental block, you can get really defeated by it. You think, I'm just not very good at this. I just don't know what I'm doing. I can't get over this. I've had it a couple of times with some storylines that I've been trying to write, some narratives that I've been trying to write, and it just won't come out. I know what I want to get to, I know where I want to get to, I can't get there. And then I had this kind of brainwave I used to get in really dark mindsets where I was thinking, “I'm not good at this anymore, I'm just going to give it up, I'm going to go, I'm working a supermarket, something, I just don't want to do it anymore”. Mark Lofthouse: And actually, I got into the mindset of, “Put it down, walk away, come back in ten minutes”. And it really helped me. And I know it sounds ridiculous, I know everyone's going to be thinking, well, obviously, but when you're especially when I was freelance, if I walked every ten minutes, I saw that as pound signs above my head, that was time gone, that was money wasted. But I was probably losing more money sitting there getting aggravated at my computer, staring at a blank screen than what I would be if I come back in ten minutes, refreshed, had a drink, had something to eat, and I was in a better place. So I think from a mindset perspective, if you're not feeling it that day, creative work, that's fine, just do something else. Mark Lofthouse: If you're not feeling creative, why not start working on an Excel sheet? Because a lot of the time, I find specifically for me, if I'm not feeling creative, I need to do something operations wise, or I need to do something finance or something that separates, exactly that. And even if you're literally doing something that is completely relevant, it's not actually anything that you should be doing. It really helps you separate yourself and then you get back straight into it. So I think from a mindset perspective, it's to analyse where you are. If you're not feeling it, go away for ten or 15 minutes, go back to it, otherwise you're going to waste a lot more time by sitting there doing that. Does that make sense? Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. Great advice. Mine's always just get outside. It feels like you get like that brain fog where you feel like nothing that you're doing is heading you in the right direction that day. So mind is always like, yes, get away from the desk, stick your head outside, take the dog out for a walk. If you happen to have a dog and a cat.Mark Lofthouse: That's literally what I do. I've got a dog, I take him out for 5-10 minutes just around the block, or I get the lizard out and play with I'll show you the lizard a bit, but I've got a lizard and I get him out and play with him in the front room. I just use something to separate myself. I know that sounds like euphemism. It is, genuinely. I'm just going to put that.  Kelly Molson: Pet podcast - we had Matthew on with Bug the Owl last week. Now we've got Mark and his bearded dragon. I've obviously put something out in the universe about guests with strange pets. Mark Lofthouse: We need more animals in our lives. Don't we need more animals? Kelly Molson: I totally agree, Mark. Yeah, good one. I love that. Okay, so hard work. Next one. Mark Lofthouse: It's not easy if you want to get involved in the creative world, it is not easy. And I'm not going to sell this under any illusion that it's an easy task to do. You're going to sit in an office, draw a couple of bits, and then you go home and get paid a lot of money. That's not how it works. I'm quite transparent as a person. I'm more than happy to tell people that because I think I was naive when I started, especially graphic design wise. I thought, it's great. I can sit at home. I can just do a couple of designs per week, and I'm done. That's not how it works. It really isn't. And I learned that quite quickly. Mark Lofthouse: And I think a lot of some people coming into this industry that I've met kind of are under either that illusion or under the mindset of, this would be great. I'm just going to be creative, and I'm going to have fun with work. Yes, it is fun, but there's a lot of hard work you need to put in. I think when I was starting out especially, it's really hard. Y You can prove that, you can write things. You can prove that you are good at customer service. How do you prove that you're creative? It's a really hard one to do. And I think when I started this, I started originally when I was 15, 16, when I started putting myself out there a little bit. But when I was 16, I used to think, "oh, this is fine. People are just going to believe that I've created". And it was a genuine mentality that went through my head. I was like, this is going to believe it. Yeah, this is going to know that isn't the case at all. Mark Lofthouse: And I think I had to put myself out there so much that I ended up doing fake case studies, not representing that they were real, but just to show what I could do. So I put together some propositions for attractions. I did a lot of concept artwork. I ended up spending so much time that I became a full time job for a little bit that I was just putting myself out there on a piece of paper, because how else are you going to get a buy in? Mark Lofthouse: And I think that's a lot of people kind of forget that with companies that they're purchasing your services. It is a business transaction, in essence, as well. So they've got to believe that you can do what you can do. If you went to Pesco and it was an empty wrapper and you took it out and you just had to believe that there was a sandwich in that, for example. Doesn't work that way, does it? You've got to prove that you can do what you can do. And my recommendation to anybody getting in it is spend time to work on your portfolio, spend time to work on creative concepts. Nobody might buy them. Mark Lofthouse: I still, to this day, work on things what are just kind of a labour of love process, that I work on them because I like the idea, I want to get it out my brain, I want to get it on paper because you never know where it's going to be. I had a couple of years back, I sold some skirma's concepts to a client that I had when I was like 18 and it took that long for them to get signed off, but they've eventually they've happened and they've been produced. But my emphasis is expect to put a lot of work in to get where you want to because it's not an easy process. Mark Lofthouse: And I think a lot of universities, a lot of kind of educational programmes will kind of instil the mentality a little bit of when you leave here, it'll be easy to get a job and you can do this, that and the other. Sometimes the harsh realities, that isn't the case sometimes. You've still got to put the effort in, you got to work so hard to get yourself out there and prove that you can do what you can do. Otherwise it's so hard, it's competitive to make it. You've really got to put yourself out there and put the effort into it as well. Kelly Molson: Yeah. There's a big thing about being noticed as well. Earlier when I said about back when I was deciding what I wanted to do and do I go to university or just try and get a junior job?  Kelly Molson: I went down the junior job route because just felt that suited me better at the time. But competition was still really high for junior jobs because you didn't need the qualifications back then. They weren't as rigid about needing a university qualification. But then obviously the competition was a lot higher because there were more people going for those jobs and so you've had to put a lot of hard work in to even stand out in that part of the process, let alone like, what your portfolio looked like. Exactly like you, I spent so much time on my portfolio on projects that weren't real because I had to prove that I could do that role. But the first part of it was actually getting the interview in the first place, so you had to put in a lot of hard work about how you were going to be noticed. Kelly Molson: What did your CV look like? In the end, I'll have to dig it out. I'll put it on Twitter, but my CV was like I wanted to be a packaging designer, so my CV was like the little mini boxes of Kellogg's, the special pack, what were they called? The pack that you get. So mine was one of those, but like the Special K, because obviously K for Kelly. So I did this special K box that had all of my information on it, but in the style of this little box of cereal. And then I put some cereal in it, put my covering note in it and popped like a gift in it as well, which sounds great, but then I got a few messages from people going, "Yeah, that just got battered in the post. And basically we opened the box, broken bits of cornflake everywhere." Okay. At least I made a statement right when you opened it. Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, at least you got in touch. I think that's such a key point, though, isn't it? That actually, it's so competitive nowadays and I think I really feel for people trying to get in it. Don't get me wrong, I still find it difficult to kind of get some of them jobs off the line, or especially with the business creative as well. There's so many agencies that people are looking at using it's competitive to get these jobs, isn't it? We're all after the same pot of money from a client. In essence, it is difficult. And like I said, under no illusions do I want to make it sound as though you can just get one of these jobs by people believing in you. I think it's really key to put the effort in and I think it'll help you as well develop as a person. Mark Lofthouse: When you talk about interviews, this is a true thing. I used to do fake interviews, so I used to get people that either relatives or distant relatives. It wasn't people that could throw me off or anything. I used to do fake interviews and things because how else are you going to get that experience? You can't, and those little tiny things, just get in touch with someone and say, “Could you set up a fake interview with me and you and ask me questions?” Because it's so different. Being in a scenario where you're faking it with friends and family, you're having a bit of a laugh, but actually sitting there, having that meeting with somebody and having that interview is so difficult. It's not a fun task, is it, for anyone? Mark Lofthouse: So I think even doing fake interviews with things like just relatives or people that you may just know of and things, it's so important to get that experience because how else are you going to get it otherwise? Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really good advice. Yes, good. What you said about all these things, it's all about building your personal brand, is it? It's all going into, like, how much effort you put in is what you're going to get out of stuff. All right, cool. Third pillar, creativity. Obviously, if you are trying to develop a creative career in the theme park industry, you need to have a level of creativity about you. But what do you mean specifically about this pillar? Mark Lofthouse: So, as you said, it's quite a key one, isn't it, to be a creative you need to have creativity. But I think what comes with it is exploration, research and doing so we can all have ideas. Every single person on Earth is creative to some extent. People can hone into that better than other people can, but everyone's got creativity inside them. It's so key to actually go and explore and do things and research and get other people's opinion on your creativity. Because I think we've all been there, where we've gone, “Oh, this is brilliant, it's a great idea”. And then someone else has looked at it and gone, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I don't get it at all. Mark Lofthouse: We've all been there and I think even I remember reading an article online and it was from an imagineer, and they were saying that actually sometimes that they've done it where they've gone, this is a brilliant idea. And all the team members have looked at it and gone, what on earth is that? I don't understand it at all from guest perspective. So in terms of creativity, it's about honing the creative skills that you have listening to and it kind of leads us onto the next one. But I think listening to feedback, getting that influence from people, but also going visiting attractions, going visiting places, absorbing everything from your surroundings and taking home key aspects of what was exciting about that. So think of the horse racing, for example. What can you take home? How did that make you feel watching that? Mark Lofthouse: What was it about the experience that excited you about it? Or equally, walking in a forest somewhere you feel a certain way and it's really key to understand those feelings that you have and what causes them, because that helps your creativity along the line. So, like I said, we walk in the dog. I sometimes feel really calm and I don't know why. And then I'll kind of try and work out why I feel so serene. I feel really calm because if you ever want to embrace that in any of your creative ideas going forward, how do you get that feeling across? So then I think it's because I've just looked at this and it was brilliant. I've listened to this and it was the sound of birds and above and the leaves rustling together and you've got to absorb everything to be a creative. Mark Lofthouse: I think you've got to just take inspiration from every single place that you can possibly get it from. And I think that's what is about a pillar to being creative. It's not to be ignorant and just believe in your creativity. You can always learn something, you can always get inspiration from other places. And it's really key to remember that, to just remember to spend time to focus on why you feel a certain way. If you enjoyed something, why, what caused it, how long did it last for? Why are you wanting to feel that again? How can you do that for other people? And it's just about creative owning on that creative. Does that make sense? It's a little bit of a waffle book. Kelly Molson: No, it's brilliant advice. I totally get it. When you said about if you're putting yourself into a certain state, that level of calmness, understand what it is that's making that happen, because then you can apply that to the other experiences that you're designing. That summed it up perfectly for me. Mark Lofthouse: I think it truly is the only way you could do it. I think, as creatives admittedly, I'm the same. Sometimes I think, "oh, this is brilliant, I'm on a roll." Now step away and come back and read what you've just wrote, because I've done it a couple of times. I look at it and go, “I haven't even got a clue what I'm talking about here. What on earth? What is happening?” And then I've thought it's because it's got no feeling down. I've just been writing down an idea because it sounds good, but what would I feel like if I was stood there? What would I see? What would I do? What would I hear? What would I smell? And it's really key to think about all that because then you can go, right, fundamentally, this is why that creative idea did not work, because it didn't have any basis to work. Mark Lofthouse: You've got to come up with all of these little idiosms and little ideas to think of why things have got to work in the future. But it's so key as a creative, I think sometimes we can all rely on just our creative brains going, yeah, I know that works from the past and all this works from the past. Think of something fresh every time you do it. Think of a different approach and put that feeling in there as well. Kelly Molson: And then our final pillar is feedback. So you touched on this a little bit earlier about asking for feedback. I think being open to the feedback that you receive is quite important as well. Right. I think there's definitely well, I mean, maybe I don't know. I don't want to be generalist about this, but I think that there has been kind of two mindsets about graphic designers. You often come across some graphic designers and can be a bit precious about what they've done. Kelly Molson: Like, we've all met them, Mark, many of them are my friends, and you spend an awful lot of time on some of these things. Sometimes you can be a bit precious about what you've done and you get some negative feedback on it and it can be soul crushing at the time. But I think you've got to be open to the feedback that you're receiving because you can always make something better. Mark Lofthouse: Absolutely. And like I said before, you can always learn from people as well. And it's so kind of key to remember that. I think there's two things, especially as a designer, you either go down the art route, where actually a lot of the work that you're putting out there is just your personal work and you want to just share your creativity and your art. In that case, you've got to remember that everyone has an opinion and they will earn it. That's number one thing. And I think the second one, if you're working for a client and a client comes back with feedback that you do not agree with, you've got to remember they're paying you. At the end of the day, they're the client. You might not agree with their comments, but you've got to take them on board. Mark Lofthouse: And I think we've all been in that position doing commercial design, whether that is a themed attraction, themed experience, or whether that is a graphic design or art, whatever that may be, where we've got feedback and just looked at it and gone, “You don't know what you're talking about.” Which is fine. They're not meant to. They're showing their opinion and saying, this doesn't work for me because of this reason. And they might not have your background in graphic design, they might not have your background in themed attractions, that doesn't mean their opinion is less valid than yours. And I think it's so key. I went through a phase where any critical feedback I got, “I was like getting the hoof over it.” But you know what? It didn't do me any well because I lost clients over it. Mark Lofthouse: I have clients that I loved working with that wouldn't use me again because of that phase that I went through. But I needed to go through that phase to get into the phase that I'm in now, which is take any feedback on board. That's fine, take it on. Because everyone has an opinion. And actually, what some people bring back, even if they're not qualified, so to speak, in what you do, I bet they've got some good ideas that actually you go, yeah, that's really good to work with. I think one way I always work with clients to kind of assist from the feedback point of view. And I know the business creative do it really well. Is it a collaborative approach with working. Mark Lofthouse: So at the beginning of the process, you will speak with a client and get their ideas on board at the beginning of it. And I think it's really good because then you get the buy in from the client as well. They'll say, "We like this colour, we like this design, we want this feeling from it." But by doing that, you get the basis of the client working with you at the beginning and not you working for them. And it's really key. I think creativity and collaboration go hand in hand. You need to have that collaborative effort, otherwise it becomes a dictatorship of creative beliefs. And that's not what anything should be. You should be working with a client on a collaborative level to say, “Yes, I'm working for you, but we're working together to get this outcome and that's where you need to be.”Mark Lofthouse: Whether that's graphic design, whatever is themed attraction, immersive experience. But by getting on board at the beginning of that process, you alleviate any of the pressure issues with the feedback along the way because you're working with them to develop these concepts. And by doing that, you're eradicating anything really contrasting towards the end of the project or any sign off periods that you have. Kelly Molson: Yeah, great. Mark, great advice. I think we've all been in the position where we have taken some feedback from a client before and taken it away, probably pulled her hair out, felt like we wanted to argue, but then had a little word of ourselves and gone, “Okay, well, how can we work with that?” And it's about evaluating every situation that you're in where you're receiving the feedback. And like you say, there are going to be elements of the nuggets from that feedback that actually will be really positive and we should talk about. But I think there is what you said earlier is absolutely right. You do have to take a step back and go, the client is paying for this. Ultimately we are in a commercial contract here and so how far do you take it? Kelly Molson: But I do think that there is always scope to push back if you genuinely think that the feedback that we received is going to have a negative impact on the outcome and the objectives that the client wants to achieve. So I think it is worth stating that, but you are absolutely right. There has been times in the past where you kind of forget that actually someone is paying for this and we really need to do the right thing here. Mark Lofthouse: Like you said as well, I think that when I talk about the collaborative approach, obviously that isn't just the beginning of a project that's through it. And by collaboration that does mean pushing back on certain elements as well. And that is part of a collaborative team. You aren't just say yes to everything, or no, full stop. You work with a client to say, "Okay, I'll get your idea, but how about if we did it this way instead?" So you still get your creative position in right? You still get the extent of what you want from a creative delivery, but the clients getting the product that they want and it's so key to kind of work that way. I used to be kind of critical with feedback. Mark Lofthouse: I used to, like I said at the beginning, think, “You don't really know what you're talking about. I know as a designer, I know what I'm doing. I've done this countless numbers of times. I know what I'm doing.” But sometimes people just need explanation as well as why have you come up with that. And sometimes you'll read an email and emails are the devil's work. And I will always say that, because you read much more into an email than you should do. Everyone does it, but you'll get feedback. And instead of looking at that and going, "Oh, what do they mean by that? Or is there any way that I can explain myself that you start to type back furiously". Don't do it. Always walk away from an email. And it's only in probably the past year that I've started doing it more. Mark Lofthouse: I'll get an email, come through and I think, I don't like the tone of that. I don't like this, that the other. And then I got, right, walk away from it. I'll come back and then go, “Actually, the tone is absolutely fine, I was overreacting.” Because you're not prepared to get that email coming in. So you're always on the back foot, you're always expecting the worst because you can never read what anyone's going to say. So I think with that as well, if you get any sort of feedback along those lines, try and jump on a call, try and jump on a Zoom call, try and jump on a Team's call, whatever that may be. Because seeing people's facial reactions as well really helps in terms of understanding where they're coming from with things. Mark Lofthouse: And you can obviously explain it a lot better. But, yeah, in terms of feedback, make sure you're getting the feedback, but also feeding back on that feedback to yourself to think, "Should I respond? Do I need to respond that way?" No, always have feedback on the feedback. That's what I think. Kelly Molson: I love it. And such good advice. Right, great. We've covered the four pillars. Mark, we're coming towards the end of the podcast. I've got two more questions for you. One, other than email is the devil's work, what would be the one piece of advice that you would like to share with anyone who really wants to start their creative career in theme park industry? Mark Lofthouse: This one is a bit controversial, but never fall in love with an idea that you have. So I learned this a long time ago now, when I first started, especially Danny Scare Mazes and Halloween events, because it's what I love. I absolutely adore into these type of events. I really fell in love with the ideas that I was creating and I just put my whole self into it and I thought, this is a brilliant idea. And some of the clients that I was working with didn't think that. And it hit me hard, really hard. And I think you have to obviously believe in what you are putting forward. Mark Lofthouse: I'm not saying that you've got to believe in the product that you're positioning to a client, but do not fall in love with it where you can't take this criticism on board because it hits you very hard. It's. Like getting punched in your stomach, isn't it, when you fall in love with an idea and then someone comes back going, “I really don't like this.” And you've really got to assess yourself with it. You've got to position yourself in terms of, yes, I believe in the product, but also it might not be right for other people because other people have different opinions, they see things from a different perspective. So I think, yeah, never fall in love with your own idea is probably a key one for me. And it's something I've stuck with for years, since learning that lesson long time ago. Kelly Molson: Learn it the hard way, Mark, but a good lesson to learn. Great, thank you. Right, we always end the podcast with a book that you'd love to share. So something that you love that you're really happy to share with our audience. What have you got? Mark Lofthouse: Yeah, so I've actually got it. I've got it behind me. I'll move my head. But it's the Immersive Storytelling book and I think it's been covered by so many people, but it is brilliant. It's written by an ex imagineer. I think, actually, she's still a Disney imagineer named Margaret, and she walks you through her vision of how to tell a story correctly in terms of an immersive environment. And it's just so well done, because she doesn't just say, it isn't a case study, this is what I do, this is how I do it. Because you can't do that storytellers, all tell stories in a different way. But what she does is tells you her philosophy of how to think about storytelling in an immersive environment. I literally got through neenoff the full book in an evening. It just engrossed me straight away. Mark Lofthouse: It's brilliantly written, really friendly approach to it, but I can't recommend it enough. It's called Immersive Storytelling. And it's brilliant. I really recommend it to anyone. Kelly Molson: Amazing. Great book. We have not had that one recommended on. We have some really good book recommendations recently. Listeners, as ever, if you want to be in for a chance of winning that book, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Mark's book, then we'll put you in the draw and maybe you could be the lucky recipient of it. Mark, it's been so good to chat today. Thank you. I feel like we've got a really similar background, so we should definitely chat again at some point about our horror stories of feedback and client feedback and falling in love with projects that clients should love and then they hate. Mark Lofthouse: Thank you so much for having me on as well. I think it's so good just to chat with people about what you do and about how you sort of think about things. I think we're all guilty, aren't we, of just going, “Oh, I work doing this and carrying on with it.” But it's really nice, actually, sometimes just to open up about where you started and hear other people's stories as well. So thank you so much for thinking of me and I really appreciate being on here as well. Kelly Molson: No, you're very welcome. It's been a great chat and we're going to put all of Mark's contact details in the show notes, so if you want to have a chat with him about any aspect of this, which he's really passionate to, talk about it. So if you're starting out or you happen to be a client that's looking for creative work, then you'll be able to contact Mark with all of these details in the show notes. So thank you. Mark Lofthouse: Thank you. Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Though today it is just a muddy field, the small hamlet of Yeavering was once a bustling centre of Anglo-Saxon power in the North of England. At its heart was a 7th century palace - known in Latin as Ad Gefrin - which was built by King Edwin in 616 AD, the first king of a united Northumbria.In today's episode of Gone Medieval, Dr Cat Jarman speaks to Dr Chris Ferguson, the Director of Visitor Experience at the newly opened Ad Gefrin museum and distillery. Located just outside Newcastle, the museum tells the untold story of this remarkable Anglo-Saxon palace and the part it played in Northumbria's golden age.This episode was edited by Joseph Knight and produced by Rob Weinberg.If you're enjoying this podcast and are looking for more fascinating Medieval content then subscribe to our Medieval Monday newsletter here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download, go to Android or Apple store Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: https://ats-heritage.co.uk/https://twitter.com/ATS_Spencerhttps://twitter.com/ATS_Heritagehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/spencerclark/ Spencer ClarkAs a newbie to the sector, I started my career in attractions back in 2012 when I joined ATS to help grow the business. There was so much to learn, but I used my experience in design and creative problem solving and a natural ability to understand clients needs quickly.Today I am in the privileged position of co-owning and leading the company as MD with a fantastic team and a reputation to match.My underlying passion is in creating value through great design and unrivalled customer service. I love nothing more than to listen to clients describe their problems and to be asked to help them overcome them, often in a highly creative yet pragmatic way.I love how we can use technology (thoughtfully) to elevate an experience. At ATS, we are pioneers of on-site and on-line digital visitor experiences across the cultural sector, delivering amazing audio & multimedia tours, digital apps/tools, films and tailored consultancy services.We help our clients to engage with millions of visitors and we're privileged to be trusted by attractions small and large across Europe, including St Paul's Cathedral, Guinness Storehouse, Westminster Abbey, Bletchley Park, Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, Titanic Belfast and Rembrandt House Museum.Outside of work, I'm busy keeping up with two active daughters and try to get on the water paddle boarding, on the hills mountain biking, or roaming around in our camper van.  Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode I speak with Spencer Clark, Managing Director of ATS Heritage.Spencer shares his insight into what the biggest pain points are for attractions when developing their stories, and the ATS methodology that helps bring out the very best experience for your guests.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, Spencer. It's lovely to have you on. Spencer Clark: Thanks for having me, Kelly. Kelly Molson: It's taken a while for me to persuade Spencer to come on. I'm not going to lie, I've had his arm right up his back for a while, but he's finally here. Spencer Clark: I've relented. Kelly Molson: He has relented, but he might regret it. Right, icebreakers. What's the worst gift that anyone's ever given you? Spencer Clark: Who's going to be listening to this? I'm not so much worse, but once you get, like, your third or fourth mug, it might be personalised and tailored to you, maybe they're quite amusing, some thoughts gone into it, but when you get a few too many mugs, that creates a little bit. Kelly Molson: Would you rather socks than mugs? Spencer Clark: Yeah, I'm getting into my socks now. Yeah, some nice socks would go down a treat, I think. Kelly Molson: Yeah, I'm with you on this. So this was a Twitter discussion, so the team at Convious sent me some lovely Convious branded socks the other week. They're great. And I had them on. I took them a little picture, I put them on social media and then everyone was like, "Oh, socks. Yeah, were going to do socks for giveaways", but everyone said, "No, socks are rubbish". And I was like, "Absolutely not". Socks are, like, low of the list of things that I want to buy myself. So if I get free socks, I'm going to wear them. Spencer Clark: That's it. And you get your favourites. Kelly Molson: Good. No mugs for Spencer. Okay, this is a random one. If you can only save one of the Muppets, which muppet do you choose and why? Spencer Clark: Oh, man, that's quite a good one. Miss Piggy is a little bit hectic for me. I don't think I could spend a lot of time with her. The chef's quite entertaining, though. The hoodie gordie chickens, I think is. Yeah, I think he was smiling face and, yeah, I like a good chef, so, yeah, I keep him. Kelly Molson: It's a good choice. And I wasn't expecting the impersonation either. Impressive. Spencer Clark: There you go.Kelly Molson: Really, we're taking this podcast to new levels, people. This one would be quite easy for you if you could only listen to one album for the rest of your life. What would it be? Spencer Clark: That's a good. That's really good. Back after Uni, 1999, I went travelling with my best friend and we had a little campervan and went around New Zealand for four weeks and we bought two tapes when we landed in Auckland and we had those two tapes and we listened to just those two tapes for four weeks in a camper van. And one was Jamiroquai Synchronised album, big Jay Kay fan. And the second one was Californication by the Red Hot Chilli Peppers. Kelly Molson: Excellent. Spencer Clark: And I can still listen to them over and over again now. Kelly Molson: I think I'll let you have the two because it's a great story and really good memories attached to those two. Spencer Clark: Oh, every time we put it on. And Dave is not a great singer, but it's a memorable voice he has. So we're travelling around, these tracks pop up and I'm taking straight back to a certain lovely mountain right here in New Zealand. It's Delcito. Thanks, Dave. Kelly Molson: Lovely. Thanks, Dave. Good memories, good story, good start to the podcast. Right. What is your unpopular opinion? Spencer Clark: So it's QR code, but in a particular setting. And that is where, in restaurants or places to eat, where the QR code is that's your menu. It's the way you pay and everything. And I think just sometimes it gets just a bit frustrating. It's not a great experience because I like a big menu, not necessarily with pictures on the food, I don't need that. But a good menu with everything on it, so you can kind of see the choices, but on your phone you can't really see the whole menu, so that's a bit annoying. And then you got to just order it and add it to your basket and then you think it's gone, then do all the payment. Spencer Clark: I know it's supposed to be easy, but in that environment, I prefer just chatting to a waiter or a waitress and just and having a good experience. Kelly Molson: I agree. When there was a need for, it was great. Obviously, during pandemic times, that was great that you could go in and you could do that. But, yeah, I want to ask questions. I can't decide between these three dishes. What would you pick? You want that conversation, don't you? That's the whole part. It's all part of the experience of eating out. Spencer Clark: It definitely is. And I did a lot of time as a waiter in my late teens and early twenties. And a great waiter makes your night. That's the way I see it. All your day. It's just under use. You don't want to cut them out, you want to go just all on the app. Kelly Molson: Right, listeners, that is a good one. Let me know how you feel. Are you up for having a little chat with your waiter? Straight waitress? Or do you just want to go QR code, cut them out, no chat. No chat. Let me know. Spencer Clark: Sometimes I have those moments as well, of course, but overall, I'd rather chat with someone. Kelly Molson: All right, tell us about your background before you got to ATS. It wasn't in the attraction sector, was it? Spencer Clark: No. So ATS where I'm at now, I've been eleven years and this is the first entry into attractions culture sector. So I did product design at uni and I was never going to be the best designer. It worked out, but I love design and I love the process of essentially being given a problem and find ways in which you can design something to solve it in the best possible way. So to design was definitely in my interests. And then after Uni, I had an idea. My sister is profoundly deaf and so we had an idea for some software, or had some ideas for some software that helped communicate with businesses using your PC. This is pre Messenger and pre WhatsApp all of that. Spencer Clark: So it's kind of when using modems, if anyone remembers those, I'm really sure my age when talking about modend dial ups and yeah, I went to the Princess Trust actually for a bit of funding, a bit of help, and kind of did that start up. So that was inspired by trying to find a solution for an issue that my sister was facing. But then, yeah, the internet really hit us and we had messenger and thankfully, communications with deaf people are far better now. And on almost any cool playing field we've got WhatsApp texts, all of that sort of stuff, and email everything, so it kind of levelled it a bit. Then I set up another business with her and it was deaf awareness training. So we would train healthcare professionals, predominantly. The front of house, health care, how to communicate better with deaf patients. Spencer Clark: Again, driven off of a pretty horrible experience that my sister had. And so, yeah, trying to sell something and making the experience better was really important to us. So that was really good. And through that, funny enough, I met ATS along that route because ATS were looking for some sign language tours. They were the first company to really start to do it on handheld devices. And yeah, that's how I met them, because they found us doing deaf awareness training and signing and asked us for some help. That was the seed. But then at the same time, when I was doing small business consultancy around childcare businesses, really random, but it was the same sort of thing. Spencer Clark: I love working a bit of entrepreneurial spirit in me and I loved helping organisations, smaller businesses, particularly with their cash flows and their marketing ideas, and just general small business help, really. And then I found ATS and that's a whole other story. Kelly Molson: I love that. Yeah, well, great story. I didn't realise that you had a startup and you've been part of all these quite exciting businesses and it's those businesses that kind of led you to ATS. Spencer Clark: Yeah, I had a moment and as many of us do, I suppose I was getting married and I was working in these different jobs and it was quite randomly kind of moved to different things and I was trying to find the focus, what do all these different businesses and these things do? And I was kind of looking at what I enjoyed, what I was good at, and I went through a bit of a career reflection and had someone help me do that. And we're looking, what's the common thing here? And it was creativity, it was working with people. It was definitely small business, not big corporates. And at the time, because I'd already known ATS through doing some of the sign language stuff, they went on my list as, “I need to have a chat with Mike about that one day”. Spencer Clark: He's the founder of ATS. And then yeah, eventually we sat down in the chat and invited me on board to try out. And that was eleven years ago. Kelly Molson: And that was eleven years ago. Tell us about ATS, tell us what they do for our listeners and what's your role there? Spencer Clark: Sure. So I'm now Managing Director ATS. So I've been there in that role for two and a half years now, two or three. Prior to that, I was Business Development and Sales Director, so driving new business. And yes, so ATS, we've expanded out now, but I guess we're a full service. From Creative Content so predominantly known for audio multimedia guides to on site interpretation and storytelling. So our core business is around coming up with brilliant stories, working with our clients to write scripts, and then looking at the creative ways in which we can tell that story to their target audiences. So whether it's families, adults, overseas, we then come up with all these great ideas. And whether it's audio or multimedia, with film or apps, with interactives and games, we try and find all the unique ways of telling that story, of that unique site. Spencer Clark: So we have predominantly in house, fantastic production team, editors, filmmakers, developers, we have interpretation specialists and script writers. So once we've done all the content, we've also got all the technology as well. So part of our business has we manufacture our own hardware, so multimedia guides, audio guides, we have software that runs on all of them. We also do apps and PWAs, and we have a tech support team as well, who are out managing all of our clients. So we have 45,000 devices out in the field at the moment, so there's a lot being used, a lot of experiences being had one of our devices, but they all need battery changes, servicing, all that sort of stuff. So we got a tech team for them as well. So complete end to end from consultation, content, hardware, support.Kelly Molson: Yeah, and great sector to work in. You talked about developing stories. Heritage organisations have the best stories, right? So it is an absolutely perfect fit. I want to talk about the process that you go through and how you make that happen for the heritage sector. What is the biggest pain? So I'm in the marketing team of a heritage organisation and I've got a pain and I know that ATS can probably help me solve it. What is that pain that I bring to you? Spencer Clark: There's a number that we get approached about and I guess the first one, though, is we've got great stories. So, yes, heritage and cultural sites naturally have loads of great stories, so the most prime problem really is them to say, "We want to understand which audience we want to tell our stories to", number one. And then number two, "once we know that, how do we tell the stories in the best memorable, entertaining, educational way?" So really, they're the starting point, really, is helping them understand who their audience is and then going, "Right, how are you telling that story?" I often say with a creative conduit between the site and its heritage and their audiences. And we're the guys in the middle. Spencer Clark: You go, Right, we're going to understand these really well and come up with really great ideas to tell that story to that person in that experience. And that's the prime too. But then it expands out because once you start chatting to them and you go, well, those stories can be told in different ways to different audiences, but also the experiences are very different across sites. So you could have a linear tool, so you kind of know that the story has to make sense stop after stop and it's kind of a narrative thread, whereas other sites are random access, so you're moving around. And so therefore, everything needs to make sense in that situation as well. Kelly Molson: Very interesting, isn't it? I hadn't thought about how the building itself or the area itself can have an influence on how the story is told. Spencer Clark: Absolutely. So we do guides at St Paul's Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, and you're thinking, "Right, big ecclesiastic sites, they must be very similar", but they're not. St Paul's random access. So once you've done the introduction, you can go wherever you like in St Paul's and access that content. The storytelling within that space, however you like. Westminster Abbey is very linear and so you start at point 1 and you have to go through and there's a fixed route to it. They're two very different buildings architecturally, so the challenges with that, for example, is when we're designing the scripts and designing the experiences, saying, "Well, what is the visitor journey here? And where are their pinch points?" I think in one spot in Westminster, we had 10 seconds to tell a story. Spencer Clark: People can't stay more than 10 seconds in that area because it just ends up backing up and then it's awful for everybody else. Whereas St Paul's is very different. You've got a lot more dwell time and a lot more space that you can sit and just listen. So two very different experiences that we design. Kelly Molson: That's really complex, isn't it? So you're not only thinking about how to tell the story in the best way to fit with the venue and the access and how people walk around it, but also from a capacity perspective, people can't stay in this area for longer than 10 seconds. So you've got to get them moving. Spencer Clark: Exactly. Kelly Molson: It blows my mind. Talk me through your methodology then, because I think that's quite interesting. Like, how do you start this process? They've come with the pain. We've got this great story, we're not telling it in the best way that we could. How can you help us? Where do you start? Spencer Clark: It's a good place. What we love is you get face to face and you walk the current experience and you walk through it. And it's great to talk to visitor experience teams, curatorial, front of house, as well as senior stakeholders and having a conversation with all of them to kind of really get a sense of what's the outcome I'm starting with what's wrong or what do you want to better? What do you want this outcome to be? And then we kind of work backwards because we have a lot of experience to share. And so there's things around this routing, wayfinding, dwell time. There's things around operations and logistics of handing out hardware or promoting an app if that's what clients are pushing out to their visitors. But we all got to understand there's lots of different models as well. Spencer Clark: So some sites, for example, you may pay to get in, but then you may pay for an audio or a multimedia guide or an app afterwards. So you're paying for your ticket and then you've got a secondary spend for a guide. I have seen a lot of our sites, especially some of the bigger ones, they have an all inclusive. So you buy your ticket and you get your guide included. But those two models means two different things because on the all inclusive, the majority of your audience are getting that guide. Therefore that story that we're going to create for you is being told to the biggest proportion of your audience, whereas those who buy additional, you know, the take up is going to be lower, therefore that message is not going to get to that many. But you don't need as many devices. Spencer Clark: And so we look at kind of whether they can handle a stop of hundreds or thousands of devices in some cases. Kelly Molson: Oh, you mean like where they're going to put them? Spencer Clark: Exactly. Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's all about that. Spencer Clark: These castles and heritage sites didn't really they weren't designed to hold racks or racks of guides, which is why they end up in some funny places, sometimes moat houses and whatever. So we start there, that's kind of walk it through. We want to listen and understand what everybody as a stakeholder, what they're wanting from it, but then we really kind of go, what does the visitor really need and want? What are they paying for? What are their expectations? And how can we have our impact on the visitor experience, which is essentially what it is. We're involved with storytelling content, visitor experience and technology, essentially the delivery method of it. Kelly Molson: What's a good case study, then, that you could share with us? I guess the proof of the pudding is in people being engaged with those stories. So it'll be about the feedback, right, that the organisation gets once people have been through the experience and they get good TripAdvisor recommendations and all that kind of thing. What's a good example that you can share with us of something where you've worked on it and it's made quite a vast difference to that experience?Spencer Clark: I'd like to say every single project. We generally want every client. We're passionate about making a difference. You're investing in time and money and we want to add as much creativity to it, but we want it to be as effective as possible, which is why I really want to understand what clients are wanting to get. If we look at this in a year's time, what do you want to see happen? And if it is better, TripAdvisor does that. I think we're hitting that really well, because not many sites, I'd say you have visitors kind of commenting on the audio or the multimedia guide back in the day. But when you look at a lot of our client sites, they get mentioned in TripAdvisor and how it's made a massive difference. Spencer Clark: So I was chatting with a client today, the guide is eight years old, a multimedia guide. We did a full film production for the introduction film, but then we also put that content into the guide, so it felt like this really the continuity in the storytelling. So once you arrive, you watch the film, you got the characters on the film, but they also feature in your guide. So as you've watched it, you go off and you go to a dinner party and we're just chatting today and they said, eight years on and it's still really good and getting reference to and we've got prospect clients and new clients who go over and check it out and they just love it. Just because we've designed it to last a long time, it shouldn't date because it's often our sector. Spencer Clark: They're not refreshing content like that every couple of years. It needs to last as long as it can and get its money's worth. The output is a great Visitor experience. Hopefully we're inputting on the NPS score, so hopefully people are saying, “yes, the overall, we're one part”. My colleague, Craig, he says it people don't go to a site for the multimedia guide. Right. They're not going, oh, we're here ATS are great, let's definitely go to one of their sites. They don't they go there? And then once they get this wonderful experience with the front of house with a fantastic audio multimedia guide that's been thought about and really designed well. Spencer Clark: And then the retail was great and the food and beverage was good and there was parking and whatever, and it was a sunny day because if it's a rainy day, everyone has a really bad experience. It's raining, which is obviously out of control of many sites. So, yeah, we're one element, but an important one, we feel, that really impacts on ATS and TripAdvisor and feedback and repeat visits. Kelly Molson: Do you get asked that question, actually, about how long this will last? So you said that guide has been around for about eight years now and I'm thinking, "yeah, that's good going, that's good return on investment, right?" We get asked that quite a lot about websites. "How frequently do you need to update your website? How frequently do we need to go through this process from redesign and development?" And I think it really depends on how well it's been done to start with. So we've worked with attractions where we did their website, like six or seven years ago. It still looks great because it was thought out really well, it's planned well, the brand was in place and it's the same, I guess, with your guide, if it's done well from the start, it's going to last longer. Spencer Clark: Absolutely. And to me, that's part of the brief, that's the design process, looking at the brief and the clients and asking those questions, "Well, you're, you can update this" and you kind of know they're not going to update it in a year. So how long was the shelf life of this product? What do you want it to last? And so once you know that at the beginning, you start producing it in a way that you say, well, that might date, you could have contemporary fashion, but that might look a bit dated in five, six, seven years time, whereas if we go animation, you can make things last a lot longer. But then, yeah, realistically you could be looking at how long does this last? Eight years, nine years? Spencer Clark: We've got clients up to ten years now. As long as you write it, you have an awareness that you don't mention potentially people's names who work there because they may move on and maybe even the job title might change. So you got to just be a little bit careful of kind of mentioning that, especially at site's consideration. When you've got 12, 13 languages, you make one change in the English, you've then got to change all that. So again, it's this understanding at the beginning saying, well, the risk of having a celebrity or whoever if you don't want them and they're out of faith or whatever, or they're not available to do any rerecords you got to think about that and say, well, that's going to have a knock on effect, and that will change then eventually. Spencer Clark: So, yeah, there's all these little secrets of the way in which things are, but we're aware of them. And that has a massive impact on the cost down the line. And the quality, of course.Kelly Molson: That's the benefit of the consultancy approach that you take as well, isn't it? Is it, that you are asking those questions up front and you're thinking long term about what's best for the organisation, not what's necessarily best for you? Is it better for me if they update this every three years or every eight years? But what you want is to get them the best experience from it and have the best product possible. So you ask all the right questions to start with. Spencer Clark: Absolutely. And sites are all different. The story at one place might not change, but they might have a different view on it and so or a different angle coming in. Well, there's a different story or theme within that place. So we did know National Trust site, so they had a big conservation project and so we've done the restoration conservation story. They've come back to a couple of years and now we're looking at different stories within them and telling stories very much around female stories at the house as well. So we're bringing that in. And what we can do, we're going to layer it and put in with the content so it will start to really. You have this lovely kind of layering of story and content that people can dip in and out of depending on what they're interested in. Spencer Clark: But that means it is evolving, but you're not recording loads of other stuff, you're just starting to build up on this nice kind of collection of content. But then you got sites such that you know they're going to have temporary exhibitions every year. So Buckingham Palace, we do their permanent tour, but then the exhibition changes every year, so we'll be going in there and rewriting content just for that element of it. So, yeah, most places don't change a lot of their content, but when you do, it's usually just elements of it, or adding languages or adding an access tool or something like that. Kelly Molson: Yeah, and I love that.  But actually what we're trying to do is just make something better. And that doesn't always mean that you have to spend a shitload of money on making something, you know what I mean? You don't have to start from scratch, you can make something really great with what you have. So we've been talking a lot with attractions about just making what they have better. They don't need a new website right now. What you could do is just add these things in and that would make your website 10% better than it is now. Amazing, right? You've saved yourself a lot of budget, but you've still got this brilliant project and that's the same with what you're talking about. It's not a start from scratch, it's just building on and improving what you have. That's a good place. Spencer Clark: It's a good offer to have. I think it is, because sometimes you just want a little refresh and actually just slightly dated or that's not the language or the tone we use completely. So we just want to change this intro and often the introduction is the beginning of the experience. So if you can tweak and change that can actually set the tone for the rest of it anyway. We often go and say, "Well, what have you gotten? What improvements can you make on a minimal budget?" And that's the honest conversation you have early on and you're going, "What do you want to happen realistically? What are your budgets, what's your time scales?" And then we'll come back to you with something that's tailored to you and see what we can do. Spencer Clark: And often a review of the current experience and will be constructive and we think you could just improve these bits at the moment. Kelly Molson: Yeah, I love that approach. And also, do you have a moathouse that you can keep all these devices in? And while we're on the topic of that, let's talk about something that you mentioned earlier, which is this app versus devices debate. So you mentioned, and it hadn't even occurred to me. Do people have the storage space for all of these devices? Are they going to be able to put them somewhere? And I bet you get asked us all the time, isn't it going to better if we have an app because people have got that phone in their back pocket all the time and so then you don't necessarily need as many of the devices as you might need. There's quite a big debate around this at the moment, isn't there? What's your take on it? Spencer Clark: Well, of course I've got my opinion on this one, Kelly. But you know, these questions when I joined the ATS, so I joined eleven years ago and I started going to the conferences and the shows and the exhibitions and you know, apps were around and it was the, "Oh yeah, they're going to be the death of the audio guide". So there's me, joined a company thinking, "Oh okay, I wonder how long I'll be around for". But what history has shown me is that what drives a really good product and a good solution, whether it's an app or a device, is really understanding those outcomes and visitor behaviours and COVID was obviously a point in time where people weren't touching things.Spencer Clark: And it was a concern at the time like, “okay, I wonder how long is this going to play out?”. But what we found is humans fall back into an ease of life and convenience and quality, I think is kind of where people say, "Oh, no, they won't use devices anymore and they won't use touch screens". And I remember chatting with Dave Patton from Science Museum and he said, “Yeah, in COVID, we turned all the touchscreens off”. Everyone kept going up to them and touching them because they thought they were off to turn them on, so they turned them off so that people wouldn't use them. And actually what they're doing was touching that device more. Do you remember the days people were wiping down all the trolleys? I'm quite an optimist, so I was sitting at the time. Spencer Clark: Once we passed this and through it, I feel we will kind of fall back into, you're not going to take your own cutlery to a restaurant a year, so that hasn't happened. And QR codes are less and less visible on those restaurants. Yeah. What it really is about for us is, and I touched upon it, there's a few things around why ultimately you can do everything. Our multimedia guides and audio guys can do pretty much one of these, but for a number of reasons, visitors aren't necessarily going straight over to these and dropping the hardware. If I rock up with my kids, got two kids, they don't have phones, so they're not going to download an app when they get there. My phone is my car key, it's my travel, it's my wallet, it's everything, so I'm using it all day. Spencer Clark: And there's obviously battery concerns there as well, so you kind of start getting kind of battery anxiety of that where you carry around a charger. But there is something and the more and more we work with clients and we compare, we put apps in places as well as multimedia guides or audio guides, and we look at the take up and we look at the behaviour of visitors. And even more recently, we're doing a site. At the moment, it's got temporary exhibition for six months. I'll be able to say a bit more about it once we've done the end of the review, but essentially we've had kind of AB testing and looking at how the take up is for guides versus apps and we're positively seeing big demand for devices for a number of reasons with the audience time who were there. There's the quality. Spencer Clark: As far as I've paid my ticket, especially on the all inclusive, I get my guide and it's really well designed and this is part of the experience designed for it. I'm not worrying about battery and the headphones are in there. I haven't got people walking around with audio blaring out because they've gotten their headphones, which is really annoying to all the other visitors that I've been to a few museums and seen that and heard that it's not a great experience. There's definitely a quality thing there about it's part of, this is part of. Kelly Molson: Do you think it's part of, it's escapism as well? So, like, for me, I'm terrible if we're out and about, if me, my little girl and my husband are out for the day, my phone is in my bag the whole time and I forget to take pictures. I forget to tell social media that I've been to a place, "Oh, God, what I've got for lunch”, because I'm too busy doing it. And I think with the kind of headsets thing, there's an element of escapism there, isn't there, where you don't have to have your phone. I like not having to be on my phone. I like that for the whole day. I've had such a great day, they haven't even thought about looking at my phone. So I don't know whether there's an element there. Kelly Molson: We're so tied to our phones all the day, all day, aren't we?  For work and things.  I'm just going to put these headphones on. I'm going to escape into a different world where I don't need to think about it. Spencer Clark: Yeah, don't get me wrong, there's definitely a place for apps and there's a use for them, which is why we've developed a platform that makes apps as well. But the devices over this recent exhibition, I'm just learning more from visitors and the staff who are there, and they're saying, "Yeah, you take your phone and you might have the tour going, but I don't turn my notifications off, so I'll still get interrupted by things". And you're right, I want to be in this experience. And my attention, I'm hoping, is mostly on what's there and the stories that are being told to me. So, yeah, there's a lot around there. There's also perceived value. Spencer Clark: I did a talk at Historic houses pre covered, but I had like 160 people in the Alexandra Palace and I asked them all, "how many of you just have downloaded an app in the last twelve months?" A few hands put up and then said, "Okay, how many of you paid for an app out of those?" and all the hands went down. There's this thing about, would you spend £5 on an app? Probably not a lot of people would. It's got to be really well promoted and maybe in the right circumstances, the right place, the right exhibition, you'd get someone doing that, but people will pay and you see it. They will pay £5 for a device that's being designed and put in there as part of the official experience of this site. Spencer Clark: So you've got to look at the take up and the reach that an app will bring over a device as well. So there is perceived value. See if you can charge for it great or if it's in ticket price, it just makes the whole value of the experience even better. I'm not sure what's your experience when was the last time you paid for an app, Kelly? Kelly Molson: Bigger question, as you asked it, I was thinking, and I can't remember. There must be something that I've paid a minimum value for, like it was like, I don't know, £0.69p or £1.29 or something like that, but I couldn't tell you what it was or when I downloaded it. Kelly Molson: I mostly have car parking apps on my phone. Honestly, I think at one point I counted I had seven different car parking apps on my phone because all of the car parks obviously stopped taking cash. I'm terrible with cash, I never have any of that. A lot of them. But they're all free.Spencer Clark: There's definitely something there around perceived value and what it means to the experience, I think. Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's really interesting, actually. Spencer Clark: The debate will continue for years, though, Kelly. The debate will carry on.  And if that's about telling a great story to as many people as possible. Right now, in our view and our data that shows across all these sites is devices that are doing a better job than apps at the moment. But there's still a choice. Some people will have them. And I think it's going to be a blend. It's going to be a blend, but overwhelmingly the device is more. Kelly Molson: But it's interesting because you mentioned and one of my questions is, how is ATS evolving? Because I guess that you didn't always have apps as an option for people. So that's probably one of the ways that you've evolved over the years, right? Spencer Clark: Yeah. So we started doing audio guides. That was the initial and then again, Mike, the founder, was really spotted multimedia as an opportunity, screen devices as we started coming through. Not everyone had smartphones at that point. And so to provide a screen device, it was great for putting additional content and film content and also accessibility, sign language videos and things like that, which is how I got into ATS, sign language videos. So putting them on a screen and you look at how much audio visual content we now all consume on a small handheld device, he definitely saw something. And that's where ATS kind of drove that element. A lot of our work was multimedia guides over audio guides. Spencer Clark: And it was about not just playing audio with an image on the screen, because that's not adding much for the sake of this device, you need to add a lot more to it. And that's where we grew our in house production team. So all the editors coming up with really good ideas and animations and videos or interface designs, all that sort of stuff, and interactives and games and things like that, you could be really just opened up a whole world of opportunity, really. Yeah. So we started pushing that. But again, part of that design process was, and going back to the kind of we only had 10 seconds to tell this story or whatever, it's the same with these devices, and when we're creating content, visual content, it's got to warrant the visitor's attention. Spencer Clark: If you've got an amazing masterpiece in front of you, then of course you don't want to be head down in the screen, you want to be looking at it. But what could that screen do, if anything? We may decide not to even put anything on there, just go audio. But there could be something there that you want to, a curator might be interviewed and show you certain details on the painting and you could point them out on the screen. That then allows you to look and engage with the art in front of you. But, yeah, we drove that kind of way of delivering interpretation on site through multimedia guys, but we do a lot of audio as well. Spencer Clark: I'm just plain, straight, simple audio, I say simple, but lovely sound effects, really nice produced, choosing the right voices, really good script, sound effects, that sort of stuff. So, yeah, it's quite a pure way, I guess you would say, with audio owned.Kelly Molson: Nice, you mentioned the word warrant back there. Which brings me to my next question, which I think is fascinating, because there aren't many organisations that are ever going to achieve this, but ATS has a Royal Warrant now. Spencer Clark: Yeah, yeah, we got it in March 22. Kelly Molson: Absolutely phenomenal. Tell us a little bit about that. Spencer Clark: Yeah, so we've worked with Royal Household for quite, well, a couple of sites for over 15 years. We provide audio multimedia guides across pretty much all of the raw sites now, which is a wonderful achievement, we're really proud of it. And, yeah, we applied for a Royal Warrant. They're awarded to about 800 businesses in the UK and they range from one person, sole trader, craftsman, craft people through, to multinationals and SMEs and everybody in between. And it's a mark of quality and excellence in delivery of service and sustainable as well over a long period of time. We applied for it and were awarded it in March. It was a really lovely accolade for us as a business and it was a great moment to get so we've got a hold of that now. Kelly Molson: That must have been lovely. So, again, at the start of the episode, you mentioned that you'd moved into the MD role, and that was a couple of years ago. Right. So you've been an MD through COVID times, which must have been a challenge for you. As a founder of an organisation myself, I know that was a big challenge, having to learn how to do things in a completely different way. That must have been a really lovely kind of success story of those times. Spencer Clark: Definitely. We have got such an amazing team and one that people stay with us, our team stay with us for a long period of time and it was also a point where I was taking over and the founder, Mike, was properly retiring. So for him, it was really great to get for him. And we had one made up for him as well, a plat, so you can have his own he's got his own rule warrant, but yeah, for the rest of the team, it is a recognition. What's really important for me is that everybody in the team is responsible for the quality of service that we deliver from picking up the phone and working on projects, the development team, the service team, the teams that go on site. Spencer Clark: We've got staff as well, so we staff at St Paul's Cathedral and Bucks Palace and Windsor Castle, so we got members team handing out guides and operations there. And it's everyone's responsibility in our business to offer a great service in everything we do. And it definitely was yeah, it was a really great recognition that we could share with the team. Kelly Molson: Amazing. Right, what is next for ATS? What exciting developments are they're coming up that you can share with us? Anything on the horizon? Spencer Clark: Yeah, I guess this year feels like many, and I've been speaking to, you know, it's nice to get back into conferences and exhibitions and stuff where you kind of chatting to the sector, but this feels a little bit more normal as a year. I think last year was still a kind of bounce back out of COVID but this year seems to be mor. There's tenders coming through. People are now doing new projects, so that's good to see. So there's an appetite. I think what it's really shown is there's an appetite in the sector to really improve the quality of visitor experiences. I think that's what's really that I'm seeing and something that we're well positioned to support clients in is that quality of a visitor experience. On the back of that, we're looking at always continuing to look at different ways in which to tell stories and the way in which we can engage with the visitor, which doesn't always mean the latest tech. Spencer Clark: We've looked at AR and things like that and we've tried it, but what you got to be careful, what you got to understand is, instead of when you've got visitors from 8 to 85 year olds, your solution has to be accessible to everybody. And as soon as you might put in something that might if the technology doesn't quite work in that environment because it's too dark or too light or whatever, or the tech just isn't there to do it, then it suddenly breaks the magic of that experience. Spencer Clark: And so you look at different ways of being innovative and that can just be through a really different approach to the script writing, or putting a binaural 3D soundscape instead, or having a really good interactive that just brings the family in to answer questions or something like that. We will always continue to innovate, but it's not necessarily about technology. But we love tech. But you've got to think about the practical implications of tech in the projects. And that goes back to earlier I said about sustainability in the budget and some organisations just don't have the appetite or the budget to invest in some of this tech, even though they see it and they say, “we want that”. Okay, “this is how much it's cost. And it's brand new”, so you'd be developing from scratch or whatever. Spencer Clark: And it's not always palatable with the budget holders. So, yes, you got to think about operationally sustainable. What's the best solution that reaches your outcomes, essentially? So, yeah, where else are we heading? Great content. We've got new products coming through, new devices, that sort of stuff, which has kind of been, like I said, our core business. But we're also doing a lot more online, so digital exhibitions, things like that. So we're taking our onsite storytelling experience and moving online. So we've done some virtual tours, but not just 360s where you've got hotspots. We add the ATS magic to it. What else can we add into those kind of online experiences? It's a different experience, but we can definitely add some lovely creativity to the storytelling on that. So we did that with a number of clients, including Glenn Palace. Spencer Clark: We did the Churchill exhibition, which was a full three day film shoot over COVID, which was a huge challenge. But yeah, there was a high risk factor there when your main star is a Churchill lookalike and if he got COVID, the whole shoot pretty much cancelled, but we managed to get through that, so that was good. So, yeah, more of that sort of stuff. So, looking at the online space, we're getting into 3D digitisation of collections, so we've got a partnership going on where we can photogram using photogrammetry to create 3D models. And then what we're saying is we add the ATS magic to that, where you got that model. Let's put it in context, let's tell that story around that actual object. Spencer Clark: It's a 3D model, so, yeah, we're playing around with areas on that and some other things that I'm sure I'll share in the future. We're not standing still. That's for sure.Kelly Molson: No. And I'm sure I'll hear about it at whatever conferences that we're at together at some point, Spencer. We always ask our guests about a book that they love that they would like to share with our listeners. What have you prepped for us today? Spencer Clark: I'm in the car a lot, so I do a lot of audio books, if anything. I don't know if it's an excuse, but I just don't find time to sit and actually read. Busy family life, busy work life, all that sort of stuff. So a lot of audiobooks. But also, I love business books, whatever you can learn from kind of business and marketing. And obviously I had that role previous to ATS, I was kind of supporting small businesses and stuff. So there's one I had, I attended a session by a marketeer called Bryony Thomas and she's got a book called Watertight Marketing. Her session was brilliant, it was really practical, it's really scalable. So it could be for a one person company, sole trader, up to an organisation that has multiple products online, wherever. Spencer Clark: It was just a really good book that just gives you clarity and thinking. And there's this takeaway straight away from it and a really good approach to kind of reviewing your marketing and how well it's working, and then just picking those things that are going to work quickest to find out where the weaknesses are, the leaks, essentially, she calls them. So, yeah, I'd really recommend it. I'm hoping quite a lot of your listeners are interested in marketing. We're all looking at trying to get visitors back in and what our service and products are. So I'd recommend Watertight Marketing by Bryony Thomas. Kelly Molson: Oh, I think that's a great recommendation. I've read that book, I've met Bryony once a very long time ago and it's so simple, it's ridiculous, isn't it? And you think, "how is this the first book that's talked about marketing in this way?" That's what blew my mind when I read it and it is, it's just about plugging the gaps, filling the holes in your bucket. It's absolutely brilliant concept, great book. Thank you for sharing. Right, listen, if you want to win a copy of that book, and I would recommend that you do, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words I want Spencer's book, then you might be lucky enough to win yourself a copy. Thankfully, it was only just one book today. Everyone else tries to kill my marketing budget and goes with two. Kelly Molson: So well done you, Spencer. Thank you ever so much for joining us on the podcast today. It's lovely that you came on, I'm really pleased that you did. Lots to think about there and loads of tips for our listeners if they're thinking about enhancing their stories. So thank you. Spencer Clark: It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Kelly. Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

On this special episode of The Green Tunnel, Dakota Jackson, Director of Visitor Experience at the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, talks with Mills Kelly about his new book, Virginia's Lost Appalachian Trail. Dakota and Mills explore the process of digging up the story of Virginia's Lost AT in the archives, and in the memories of the people who remember it. We hope you enjoy this deeper dive into the history of the old section of the trail, and learn a little about how historians recover and interpret the past. Don't forget to listen to "The Lost AT." https://www.r2studios.org/show/the-green-tunnel/the-lost-at/ Purchase your own copy of Mills Kelly's book. https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9781467153393