Skip the Queue

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Clive Morris, founder of CCM Consulting, to explore the financial realities facing visitor attractions. They discuss the recent UK VAT changes, why collecting the right operational and financial data matters, and how attractions can strengthen the case for future VAT reform. Clive also shares practical advice on connecting finance with day-to-day operations to support better business decisions. Topics Discussed The recent VAT changes affecting UK visitor attractions Why finance and operations should work more closely together The importance of collecting accurate visitor and revenue data Building the case for future VAT reform Using financial insights to improve operational decisions Common financial challenges facing attractions Practical advice for attraction leaders and finance teams How better reporting supports long-term business growth   Show references:    Clive Morris - founder of CCM Consulting https://cmm-consulting.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/clive-morris/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.   Credits: Written by Sami Entwisle  Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwisle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Dynamic pricing can be one of the most powerful tools available to visitor attractions but only when it's used well. Andy Povey is joined by pricing expert Adriaan Van Der Hek to discuss the practical realities of dynamic pricing, how it benefits both attractions and visitors, and why getting your pricing strategy right can drive higher revenue, better attendance and happier guests. Topics Discussed What dynamic pricing really means for visitor attractions The evolution of dynamic pricing over the past two decades Balancing revenue optimisation with guest satisfaction Using demand forecasting to influence ticket pricing Common misconceptions about dynamic pricing How attractions can introduce dynamic pricing successfully The role of technology and online booking platforms Managing peak and off-peak demand Pricing strategies for different attraction types Using data to make smarter commercial decisions Encouraging advance bookings through pricing Practical advice for attractions considering dynamic pricing   Show references:    Adriaan van der Hek - COO of HomeBuddy -  AI, SaaS, Data, Tech, Advertising, Dynamic Pricing, Operations, E-Commerce, Lead Generation https://contractor.homebuddy.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/homebuddycom/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajvdhek/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.   Credits: Written by Sami Entwisle  Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwisle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this Summer Special of Skip the Queue, guest host and attractions industry journalist Owen Ralph is joined by three theme park operators for a closer look at their new offerings for 2026. Lawrence Mancey discusses Paultons Park's £12 million themed area Valgard, the largest ever investment at the UK park, also home to Peppa Pig World. He explains how the viking theme was a ‘no-brainer', why the family-run park likes creating its own IP, and also tells us about Paultons' embryonic holiday park plans. Blackpool Pleasure Beach's James Cox highlights the famous park's new £8.7 million Aviktas thrill ride and its long-running Hot Ice show. He also explains how the team is trying to revitalise neglected areas of the seaside site and why its operating season is longer than most other British parks. Finally, Hogne Høstmælingen from Hunderfossen in Norway – celebrating its 40th anniversary this season – tell us about the Lillehammer park's troll roots and much more. We hear how an IP first introduced in 2014 has spawned three attractions including a rollercoaster, Thea Award-winning simulator experience and the new dark ride Rally Flåklypa. Topics Discussed Developing a new themed area Working with intellectual properties Increasing Paultons' appeal to older kids The flexibility of lodge accommodation Vs a hotel Choosing a new thrill and where to site it Revitalising a forgotten corner of Blackpool Pleasure Beach How an eye-catching ride can be an ‘attraction' even to those that don't ride it Live entertainment and its role in broadening a park's offering Squeezing a dark ride into a remarkably small building How Hunderfossen invested in a movie to extend an IP's life A unique troll-themed dining experience An enchanting winter park offer   Show references:    Guest host: Owen Ralph International Editor, Kirmes & Park International Regular contributor, Blooloop/World's Fair www.kirmesparkrevue.de www.wordsandattractions.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/owen-ralph/   Lawrence Mancey Marketing and Technology Director, Paultons Park, UK www.paultonspark.co.uk/themed-worlds/valgard-realm-of-the-vikings https://796f0761.flowpaper.com/GemiKirmes0726E150/#page=24   James Cox Director of Marketing, Sales and PR, Blackpool Pleasure Beach Resort, UK www.blackpoolpleasurebeach.com/aviktas www.blackpoolpleasurebeach.com/shows/hot-ice   Hogne Høstmælingen General Manager, Hunderfossen, Norway  www.hunderfossen.no/en/ www.boldmove-nation.com/rally-fl%C3%A5klypa   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.   Credits: Written by Owen Ralph  Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwisle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode, Matt Stubbs, Creative Director at Little Lion Entertainment, shares insights into the innovative world of immersive entertainment, from the origins of the Crystal Maze to the cutting-edge Arcade Arena concept. Discover how technology, storytelling, and experiential design are shaping the future of location-based entertainment. Topics Discussed The evolution of immersive experiences from theatre to tech-driven attractions The concept and development of Arcade Arena as a new entertainment category The integration of gaming, live performance, and technology Designing scalable and repeatable experiences like Pac-Man and Chaos Carts The importance of human interaction and storytelling in immersive entertainment Future trends in location-based entertainment and destination experiences The role of innovation, testing, and iteration in attraction development Balancing nostalgia with new technology to create engaging experiences   Show references:    Matt Stubbs - Director of Creative at Little Lion Entertainment https://littlelionentertainment.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/little-lion-entertainment-limited/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-stubbs-8869161b0/ Arcade Arena opening in September  https://www.rli.uk.com/little-lion-entertainment-unveils-arcade-arena/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.   Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode, Andy Povey is joined by Duncan Phillips, Founder and Managing Director of DP Leisure and DP Associates, the team behind 360 Play. They discuss the potential impact of Universal's proposed UK resort, the opportunities it could create for attractions, and how operators can adapt to changing guest expectations. Duncan shares his thoughts on destination thinking, collaboration, competition, and the priorities attractions should focus on over the next five years. Topics Discussed Universal's proposed UK destination resort and its potential impact How major attractions influence regional tourism Opportunities for existing attractions to benefit from increased visitor numbers The role of destination resorts in shaping visitor behaviour Collaboration versus competition within the attractions sector Lessons from international theme park destinations The importance of differentiation and unique experiences How family attractions can position themselves for future growth Infrastructure, accommodation, and wider economic impacts What operators should be doing now to prepare   Show references:    Duncan Phillips, Founder and Managing Director of DP Leisure and DP Associates https://www.dpassociates.uk.com/ https://360play.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/duncan-phillips-7b8962112/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, guest host Olly Reed from Navigate is joined by Rob Comley of Chester Zoo and Simon Townsend of the Eden Project to discuss the growing impact of weather forecasting apps on visitor attractions. They discuss how simple weather icons can influence consumer behaviour, with misleading rain forecasts causing significant drops in attendance even when poor weather never materialises. Rob shares the story behind Chester Zoo's campaign calling for improvements to how weather forecasts are displayed, a movement now supported by more than 100 attractions and businesses across the UK. They discuss changing visitor behaviour, the importance of value for money, the rise of last-minute booking habits, and the role weather perception plays in decision-making. The episode also looks ahead to the campaign's upcoming discussions with the Met Office and highlights exciting developments at Chester Zoo and the Eden Project. Topics Discussed The impact of weather app icons on visitor attraction attendance How weather perception influences consumer decision-making Chester Zoo's campaign for improved weather forecast presentation The economic impact of inaccurate weather perceptions on attractions Industry support from attractions, farm shops, events, and hospitality businesses Visitor behaviour changes and the rise of last-minute bookings The relationship between weather forecasts and value for money expectations Differences in how weather affects Chester Zoo and the Eden Project The role of the Met Office and discussions around forecast communication Alternative weather forecasting models used in Europe The importance of accurate communication rather than challenging weather science How attractions adapt to changing weather patterns and climate conditions Future plans for the weather forecast campaign New developments at Chester Zoo including Heart of Africa and The Reserve lodges The Eden Project's 25th anniversary celebrations and Eden Sessions Optimism for the future of the visitor attraction sector   Show references:    Guest Host: Olly Reed - Marketing Director of Navigate https://www.navigate.agency/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigate-agency https://www.linkedin.com/in/olly-reed/   Guests:  Simon Townsend of Eden Project http://www.edenproject.com https://www.linkedin.com/company/eden-project/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-townsend-10137914/ Rob Comley - Senior Policy and Advocacy Manager at Chester Zoo http://www.chesterzoo.org https://www.linkedin.com/company/chester-zoo/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/robcomley/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your guest host is Olly Reed. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Bala McAlinn, Managing Director Complete Works to discuss how visitor attractions can balance technology with authentic human interaction. Bala shares how storytelling, performance techniques and well-trained frontline teams can transform guest experiences, increase revenue and encourage repeat visits, while exploring why technology should support human connection rather than replace it.   Topics Discussed Balancing technology and human interaction in attractions Why storytelling improves guest experiences Using theatrical techniques in visitor attractions Training frontline teams to create memorable interactions How live experiences increase revenue and repeat visits The importance of authentic human connection Christmas and Halloween event production for attractions Creating immersive shows and seasonal experiences Why attractions should invest in people as well as technology The role of confidence and communication in guest engagement How attractions can improve experiences without major budgets Using staff feedback to improve visitor experiences The growing importance of experiential entertainment Networking and collaboration within the attractions industry Why events and live experiences encourage repeat visitation   Show references:    Bala McAlinn - Managing Director Complete Works www.complete-works.co.uk https://www.linkedin.com/company/completeworks/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/bala-mcalinn-05406683/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your guest host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Andy Povey is joined by Lawrence Roots to explore the growing importance of the UK Theme Park Awards and why they matter to operators across the visitor attraction industry. Lawrence shares how the awards recognise excellence across parks of all sizes, combine expert judging with public voting, and help raise standards across the sector. They also talk about the emerging trends in the UK theme park industry, the value of consistency and creativity, and practical advice for operators looking to create award-winning guest experiences. Topics Discussed The origins and evolution of the UK Theme Park Awards How public voting and expert judging combine to decide winners Why awards matter for marketing, recognition and team motivation The role of creativity, consistency and guest experience in judging New award categories, including Rising Star and Outstanding Achievement Trends shaping the UK theme park industry in 2026 Major upcoming projects and investments across UK parks Why smaller operators can compete alongside major brands The importance of understanding audience needs Practical ways attractions can improve experiences without large budgets Why investing in people is as important as investing in attraction   Show references:    Lawrence Roots, Founder of UK Theme Park Awards https://www.ukthemeparkawards.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/ukthemeparkawards/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawrence-roots/ Nominations for the UK Theme Park Awards 2026 are now open. Register to make nominations and vote in the UK Theme Park Awards. https://www.ukthemeparkawards.com/register   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your guest host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Dominique Bouchard, Heritage and Engagement Director at Leeds Castle and incoming Creative Director at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, to explore how artificial intelligence is transforming heritage storytelling. They discuss the creation of the world's first interactive historical AI avatar, how Leeds Castle brought Queen Eleanor of Castile to life, and what this innovation means for the future of visitor engagement across heritage attractions. Topics Discussed: How artificial intelligence is reshaping heritage storytelling The creation of Leeds Castle's interactive Queen Eleanor of Castile AI avatar Balancing historical accuracy with AI driven visitor interaction The design and development process behind the world first historical avatar Using AI to create personalised visitor experiences Audience reactions to experimental heritage technology Ethical considerations of AI in museums and heritage sites How AI can support interpretation and visitor engagement The challenges of introducing emerging technology in heritage settings Blending creative storytelling with digital innovation Practical advice for attractions exploring AI adoption The future of AI within museums and heritage organisations Dominique Bouchard's upcoming move to the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust The potential for future AI driven heritage experience   Show references:    Dr Dominique Bouchard, Heritage and Engagement Director at Leeds Castle. Soon-to-be Creative Director at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust. https://www.shakespeare.org.uk/about-us/news-media/press-releases/leading-uk-museum-appoints-its-first-creative-director/ Pilgrimage of Love: Eleanor of Castile https://www.leeds-castle.com/ https://www.leeds-castle.com/events/pilgrimage-of-love-eleanor-of-castile/ https://youtu.be/U29H_PHrh14?si=NDbHAwR0CTTIuApY Museum and Heritage show at Olympia London, Theatre 3 at 2:15 on Wednesday 13th May, 2026 https://show.museumsandheritage.com/     Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your guest host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this Skip the Queue podcast episode, our guest host Ruth Read, Director of blooloop and greenloop, is joined by Vero Celis, CEO and Founder of Valumia and Sustainability Advisor at Skutek Consulting, and Marie Rayner, Director of Project Development and Sustainability Lead at Storyland Studios, to discuss sustainability in the attractions industry, focusing on practical climate action, key risks, and how small, data-driven steps can create meaningful progress. Topics Discussed: what sustainability and climate action mean for attractions how to get started using existing data and simple steps integrating sustainability into storytelling and guest experience designing attractions with biodiversity and long term impact in mind attractions as spaces to test and showcase sustainable innovation risks of not acting including climate impacts and infrastructure challenges supply chain risks and ESG considerations growing guest expectations around sustainability practical operational improvements and quick wins barriers to progress including cost, alignment, and lack of clarity circular design and reducing waste across projects engaging and educating guests through visible sustainability efforts   Show references:    Guest Host:  Ruth Read, Director at blooloop, the go-to source for attractions news and its sustainability platform greenloop. https://blooloop.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/blooloop/about/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruthread/ Join the greenloop newsletter. https://mailchi.mp/blooloop.com/greenloops-reasons-to-be-cheerful   Veronica Celis Vergara, CEO and founder of Valumia and Sustainability Advisor at Skutek Consulting https://skutek-consulting.de/ https://www.valumia.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-celis-vergara/   Marie Rayner, Director of Project Development and Sustainability Lead at Storyland Studios https://www.storylandstudios.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/storyland-studios/about/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/marie-r-138b181b/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your guest host is Ruth Read. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Andy Povey is joined by Andy Zimmerman, CEO of Journey, the global design and innovation agency behind some of the world's most innovative immersive experiences. Andy shares how Journey blends storytelling, technology, and multidisciplinary creativity to transform everything from theme parks and observation decks to healthcare and live entertainment. They discuss the shift from digital to real-world experiences, the importance of designing every touchpoint in the guest journey, and why the most memorable moments often happen before the main event even begins.   Topics Discussed How Journey creates world-class immersive experiences across multiple industries Why storytelling is the foundation of every successful project Designing experiences beyond entertainment, including healthcare and hospitality The transformation of the Empire State Building visitor experience Lessons from Disney's MagicBand and pre-arrival guest engagement The growing demand for real-life, technology-enabled experiences How Journey combines diverse creative disciplines under one roof The future of immersive experiences and opportunities with influencer-led attractions Why every part of the guest journey, including queues, matters The shift from the experience economy to the transformation economy   Show references: Andy Zimmerman, CEO of Journey https://journey.world/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/journeydotworld/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewzimmerman1/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Andy Povey is joined by Debs Griffin, Director of Sundown Adventureland, to explore a family-run theme park shaped by three generations of women. The conversation covers its growth into a leading destination for young families, alongside insights on expansion, operations, and maintaining a clear focus on imaginative play for children under 10.   Topics Discussed Origins and growth of Sundown Adventureland Three generations of female leadership Expansion into rides, play areas, and accommodation Challenges in staffing and operations Importance of hands-on leadership Focus on under 10s and free play experiences Balancing growth while maintaining family values   Show references: Debs Griffin, Director of Sundown Adventureland https://sundownadventureland.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/sundown-adventureland/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/debora-griffin-924161120/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode, Andy Povey is joined by Matthew Philpott, Head of Marketing at Bristol Zoological Society to discuss the transformation of Bristol Zoological Society and the move from Bristol Zoo Gardens to the larger, conservation focused Bristol Zoo Project. They explore how the new site prioritises animal welfare through natural habitats, the challenges of relocating animals including gorillas, and the creation of immersive environments like the African Forest. The episode also touches on changing visitor expectations and the evolving role of zoos in global conservation.   Key Topics Discussed Transformation from city zoo to large scale conservation site Closure and legacy of Bristol Zoo Gardens Vision behind Bristol Zoo Project and modern zoo design Animal welfare and natural habitat creation Relocation of animals and logistical challenges Gorilla troop move and preparation process Design and features of African Forest habitat Multi species environments and enrichment Balancing visitor expectations with new experiences Branding and retaining the Bristol Zoo name Conservation breeding programmes and global collaboration Role of zoos in wildlife conservation Visitor engagement through immersive design and play Data driven decision making in attractions Industry trends and future zoo regulations Education and inspiring conservation action   Show references:   Matthew Philpott, Head of Marketing at Bristol Zoological Society https://bristolzoo.org.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/bristol-zoo-project/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-p-b82395b3/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Donna Speed, CEO of We The Curious, to explore how curiosity can transform visitor experiences. Following major challenges, including COVID-19 and a devastating fire in 2022, the organisation rebuilt with a strong community-first approach, taking science directly to people through outreach while the venue was closed. The conversation focuses on a shift from traditional, answer-led exhibitions to question-led experiences, highlighted by the “Project What If” exhibition built from over 20,000 public questions. Donna shares how co-creation, inclusivity, and audience-led design are reshaping engagement, and how attractions can balance education and entertainment, remain relevant, and inspire curiosity in new ways. Key Topics Discussed Designing visitor experiences around curiosity rather than content The transformation and rebrand of We The Curious Community-led decision making and co-creation Recovery and resilience after the 2022 fire Outreach strategies during closure and post-pandemic recovery Project What If and question-led exhibition design Differences between interactive science centres and traditional museums Inclusion and representation in science and learning spaces The role of curiosity in lifelong learning Balancing entertainment and education in attractions Building trust and relevance with audiences Collaboration across the attractions and museum sector The evolving role of museums in society Leadership through crisis and change Inspiring future generations through engagement and accessibility   Show references:   Donna Speed - CEO of We The Curious https://wethecurious.org/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/donna-speed-15252916/ https://www.wethecurious.org/news-blog/we-curious-reopening-project-what-if Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey speaks with Greg Hall from Universal Creative and Max MacEwan from Framestore about the creation of Dark Universe at Universal Epic Universe. Inspired by the legacy of Universal Monsters, they explore how storytelling, technology, and psychology come together to create a thrilling yet re-rideable attraction. The conversation highlights the importance of anticipation, immersive queue design, creative collaboration, and balancing innovation with guest experience. Key Topics Discussed Creating Dark Universe at Universal Epic Universe Reimagining Universal Monsters for a modern audience Designing immersive queues and building anticipation Balancing storytelling with new technology Collaboration between Universal Creative and Framestore Using cinema techniques in attraction design Guest psychology and re-rideable thrill experiences The role of experimentation and creative risk in theme park design     Maximilian Guy McNair MacEwan, Head of Strategic Partnerships - Immersive of Framestore https://www.framestore.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximilian-guy-mcnair-macewan-64809824/   Gregory Hall, Assistant Director, Creative Design of Universal Creative https://linktr.ee/universalcreative https://www.linkedin.com/in/gprodigy/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, host Andy Povey is joined by Robbie Jones from Katapult to discuss how guest insights and psychology shape the design of modern visitor attractions. Robbie shares how Katapult works with IPs, theme parks and destinations to create experiences that focus on guest behaviour, emotions and expectations. The conversation centres on a groundbreaking four-year research project with University of Birmingham and Drayton Manor Resort exploring how attractions can better support neurodivergent guests. The project aims to develop a global blueprint for neuroinclusive design that improves accessibility while maintaining exciting and immersive experiences. Key Topics Discussed: Insights-led design in themed attractions Neurodiversity and inclusion in theme parks A four-year research project with the University of Birmingham and Drayton Manor Breaking misconceptions around sensory experiences and neurodivergence Personalisation and guest autonomy in attractions Reducing friction in queues and guest journeys The role of analogue, interactive experiences in museums and parks The commercial and social impact of inclusive attraction design   Show References:   Robbie Jones, Insights Director at Katapult https://www.katapult.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrrobbiejones/ https://blooloop.com/katapult-neuroinclusion-research/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching 'Skip the Queue' or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.   Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this special International Women's Day episode of Skip the Queue, guest host Claire Furnival brings together four leaders from across the global visitor attractions industry to discuss progress, challenges and what comes next. Joining Claire are Emily Popovich of KMI International, Rachael Hamilton of Rise AV, Liz Sanchez Rasking of Looking Glass Strategies and Entertainment SHE-nanigans, and Ruth Read of blooloop. They share personal career journeys and discuss the ongoing barriers women face, including pay gaps, unconscious bias, burnout, safety at trade shows and confidence in leadership. The episode highlights practical initiatives driving change, such as mentoring programmes, representation in awards and panels, pay transparency advocacy and grassroots networking groups. The conversation reinforces the importance of community, allyship, visibility and self advocacy in accelerating equality across the sector, while recognising there is still work to do before women focused initiatives are no longer needed. Key Topics Discussed Career pathways in attractions, AV, media and themed entertainment Confidence gaps and self advocacy Burnout and workplace pressures Gender pay transparency Safety and inclusion at trade shows Mentoring and leadership development Representation on boards and industry awards The role of allyship Building safe and supportive networks Priorities for the next five years   Show References:   Claire Furnival, Client Success Manager of JP Showsystems & previously Head of Engineering of Merac http://www.jpshowsystems.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-furnival-exec/   Emily Popovich, Director of Global Business Development of KMI International https://www.kmiintl.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypopovich/   Rachael Hamilton, Managing Director of Rise AV https://www.rise-av.com/ https://www.iamrachael.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachael-hamilton-836a5825/   Liz Sanchez Rasking,  Founder | Director of Business Development, Looking Glass Strategies https://www.looking-glass.pro/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizsanchezrasking/   Ruth Read, Director of blooloop http://www.blooloop.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruthread/   There's an incredible line-up of events taking place for this year's #IWD that you can be a part of:

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Ray Hole of Ray Hole Architects for a wide-ranging and thought-provoking conversation about strategy, storytelling and the true economics of experience design. Key Topics Discussed The “Camelot” collaboration model in attraction development Experience economy vs. pure economics Primacy and recency effects in guest psychology Designing the departure experience Turning operational cost into experiential value Storytelling through architecture Instagrammable design and generational behaviour Empathy in ticketing and security Integrating accommodation into attraction strategy Converting capex into revenue-generating experiences   Show References:   Ray Hole, Managing Director of Ray Hole Architects https://www.rayhole-architects.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-hole-a6b7396/   Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.   Credits: Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster) Edited by Steve Folland Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this live episode of Skip the Queue, recorded at the Association of Cultural Enterprises Conference, Andy Povey is joined by Richard Paterson, Chief Operating Officer at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, to explore the delicate balance between commercial performance and heritage protection.Richard shares practical, real-world strategies for running sustainable cultural attractions in a challenging post-Covid landscape from improving ticket yield to rethinking discount strategies.Key Topics Discussed:Post-Covid financial pressures on cultural attractions Increasing income yield without increasing footfallSimplifying ticket structures at the Shakespeare Birthplace TrustReducing and rationalising discountsEncouraging online booking vs on-the-door salesUsing ticketing data to test and track performanceRe-engaging local audiences within drive-time marketsGrowing repeat visitationCommunicating conservation impact to visitorsTurning restoration work into part of the experienceLeveraging cultural moments like Hamnet to refresh storytellingShow References: Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey Richard Paterson, Chief Operating Officer at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trusthttps://www.shakespeare.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardpaterson1/ Cultural Enterprises ConferenceBirmingham on 9-11 February 2026https://culturalenterprises.org.uk/conference/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. Credits:Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)Edited by Steve FollandProduced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Mark Lofthouse, Creative Director and Business & Client Strategy Manager at RWS Global, a global entertainment company delivering experiences across attractions, live events and destination design.Mark shares his journey into the attractions industry, from starting out in haunted attractions as a teenager to leading creative strategy on IP-led experiences around the world. Andy and Mark talks about how brands and attractions can create meaningful emotional connections, why guest-first design is critical to commercial success, and how IP partnerships can help venues reach new audiences when done thoughtfully. The conversation also looks ahead to the future of immersive experiences, personalisation, and what regional and family attractions can learn from projects that are thriving today.Key Topics Discussed:Emotional connection as the core of great attractionsHow IP and brands can attract new audiencesWhy guest-first design matters more than visualsWhat makes IP partnerships succeed or failLessons for regional and family attractionsThe future of immersive and personalised experiences Show References: Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey Mark Lofthouse, Senior Manager, Business & Client Strategy at RWS Globalhttps://www.rwsglobal.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/markloftcd/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. Credits:Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)Edited by Steve FollandProduced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster) We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Simon Egan, Project Development Fellow at CAPCO, the creative studio behind some of the UK's most immersive and story-led play environments.Simon shares his unexpected journey into the attractions industry, from co-creating the much-loved BeWILDerwood to founding CAPCO and championing play as a powerful driver of social connection, wellbeing, and commercial success. Andy and Simon explore why play matters more than ever in a screen-dominated world, how storytelling can transform visitor experiences, and what attractions can learn from farm parks, schools, and international projects. Key Topics Discussed:Simon's route into the attractions industryThe creation and success of BeWILDerwoodWhy story and narrative are critical to play designGetting children (and parents) playing again outdoorsThe impact of play on wellbeing, inclusion, and social skillsDesigning for dwell time, food spend, and revenue growthLessons from farm parks in the UK and North AmericaWhy play is becoming just as important for adultsCAPCO's Royal Warrant and future projects Show References: Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey Simon Egan - Project Development Fella at CAP.CO (Creating Adventurous Places Ltd)https://www.wearecapco.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/simonpegan/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey. Credits:Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)Edited by Steve FollandProduced by Emily Burrows and Sammy Entwistle (Plaster), with Wenalyn Dionaldo (Skip the Queue HQ) We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey explores how visitor attractions can improve website performance in 2026 using insight from the 4th Visitor Attractions Website Survey.Andy is joined by two contributors to the report:Simon Jones, Managing Director at NavigateSteve Mills, Director at Decision HouseThey break down what visitors expect from attraction websites, how digital behaviour is changing, and where operators should focus to improve conversion, visibility and trust.Key Topics Discussed:AI search and how visitors are using it without realisingMobile-first design and poor mobile performanceWebsite speed and its impact on conversionVisitor confidence, risk and late booking behaviourPricing transparency and hidden feesFlexible ticketing and weather-driven decisionsReviews, social proof and AI-driven discoveryUsing first-party data more effectivelyThe rise of repeat visitors over first-time visits Show References: Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey Simon Jones - Managing Director of Navigatehttps://navigate.agency/https://www.linkedin.com/in/simontjones/ Steve Mills, Director at Decision Househttps://decisionhouse.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-mills-0528661b/ Mentioned:Olly Reed of Navigate Agency: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olly-reed/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

This special Monday release of Skip the Queue marks Blue Monday, often labelled the most depressing day of the year. But is Blue Monday real, or just clever marketing?Andy Povey is joined by Emma Newell, Chair of the TEA Wellness Council, to unpack the truth behind Blue Monday and explore a much bigger issue facing the attractions industry: burnout.Key Topics Covered: The truth about Blue MondayWhat burnout really looks likeThe Window of ToleranceWhy the attractions industry is uniquely challengingWhy burnout often feels “normal” in themed entertainmentSeasonal living and energy managementLeadership, boundaries and responsibilityThe role of the TEA Wellness Council Show References: Emma Newell, TEA Chair, and Strategy, Culture & Leadership Coach at Magnetic Moon Coachinghttps://www.teaconnect.org/https://magneticmooncoaching.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-newell-magneticmooncoachingltd/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Step into the woods with us for a behind-the-scenes look at one of the UK's most iconic winter light trails: Windsor Great Park Illuminated.In this episode of Skip the Queue, Paul Marden is joined on-site by Rob Paul, Design Director at LCI Productions, and Kathryn Stafford, Senior Events Manager at IMG Events, to discuss how this 2.2km light trail continues to evolve, surprise and delight hundreds of thousands of visitors each year.Rob and Kathryn reveal how they transform a natural woodland into a breathtaking immersive world — all while protecting wildlife and crafting stories that keep guests coming back year after year.You'll discover:What's new for the 2025 trailThe creative process behind reinventing the experience annuallyThe challenges of designing large-scale AV in a protected natural landscapeHow iconic Instagram moments are balanced with quieter storytellingBrand-new characters, narratives and festive surprisesTrends in repeat visitation and evolving guest expectations  Show References: Windsor Great Park Illuminated https://www.windsorilluminated.com/tickets/ Rob Paul - Design Director, LCI Productionshttps://www.linkedin.com/company/lci-productions-ltd/https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-paul-7a4ab417/ Kathryn Stafford - Senior Events Manager, IMG Events  / PWRhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/img/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathryn-stafford-7504241b/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Melissa Oviedo (TEA), Martin Palicki (InPark Magazine), and Ed Chih (ECA) to discuss the TEA Global Experience Index and trends shaping the attractions industry in 2026.Key Topics Covered:Overview of the TEA Global Experience Index and global attendance trendsShifts in guest expectations and evolving experiencesRise of immersive IP-driven experiencesImportance of reinvestment for long-term successStrategies to compete for guest attention and engagementRole of storytelling and brand integration in attractionsGrowth of cruise lines and location-based entertainmentInsights for operators, developers, designers, and storytellers Show References: Download the TEA Global Experience Index™ Report: https://www.teaconnect.org/tea-global-experience-indextm Melissa Oviedo, Chief Executive Officer, Themed Entertainment Association (TEA)https://www.teaconnect.org/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-oviedo-ruminot-90a63228/ Martin Palicki, Publisher of InPark Magazinehttps://www.inparkmagazine.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/inparkmagazine/Edmond Chih, Director, Entertainment & Cultural Advisors (ECA)https://www.entertainmentandculture.com/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.  We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Andy Povey is joined by two guests at the forefront of this space: Rob Liddell, Executive Producer at BBC Studios Science Unit, and Simon Clarke, Creative Director and Founder of Moonraker VFX. Fresh from announcing their new creative partnership, they're here to share what happens when world-class storytelling meets cutting-edge visual effects in the world of immersive experiences. Show References: Rob Liddell, Executive Producer at BBC Studios Science Unithttps://productions.bbcstudios.com/our-production-brands/the-science-unit/https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-liddell-171639137/ Simon Clarke, Creative Director and Founder of Moonraker VFXhttps://moonrakervfx.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-clarke-07ba9146/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.   We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

Today's attractions need to do more than look amazing — they need to feel, sound, and even smell unforgettable. In this episode, we explore how to go beyond the visual and bring audio, scent and motion to the forefront of the guest experience.  Paul Marden is joined by Liam Findlay, Theme Park and Museum Scenting Consultant from AromaPrime Themed Scents; David Wakefield Director and Co-founder of On the Sly; and Matt Clarkson, Creative Director of Simworx. Show References:Liam R. Findlay – Theme Park & Museum Scenting Consultant, AromaPrime Themed ScentsWhy smell is a form of mind control, with Liam Findlayhttps://aromaprime.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/liam-r-findlay/David Wakefield – Director & Co-founder, ON THE SLYhttp://www.onthesly.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/davidonthesly/Matt Clarkson – Creative Director, Simworxhttp://www.simworx.co.ukhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-clarkson-a42a95124/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.  We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

In today's episode, recorded live at the National Science and Media Museum during the Association for Science and Discovery Centres Annual Conference 2025, we're exploring what's on the horizon for Science and Discovery Centres right now, over the next 5 years, and looking even further ahead to the next 25 years.It's a throwback to the break between Seasons 6 and 7, when Paul Marden was invited to the ASDC National Conference in Bradford, at the height of the Bradford City of Culture celebrations. It was Paul's first time in Bradford, but not his first ASDC conference, and this one was an absolute standout.At the end of the first day, Paul gathered a brilliant panel of delegates to unpack the conference's central theme: the Now, Next, and Future for Science Centres.Joining Paul on the panel were:Jo Quinton-Tulloch, Director, National Science and Media MuseumDavid Jones, Community Engagement Manager, International Centre for LifeNatalie Whitehead, Founder and Director, Exeter Science CentreStephen Breslin, CEO, Glasgow Science Centre and Chair of the Association for Science and Discovery Centres ASDCShaaron Leverment, CEO, Association for Science and Discovery Centres ASDCLet's head back to Bradford for a fascinating conversation about innovation, engagement, and the long-term vision shaping the future of science discovery in the UK. Show references:  Jo Quinton-Tulloch - Director, National Science and Media Museumhttps://www.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-quinton-tulloch-22503791/David Jones, Community Engagement Manager, International Centre for Lifehttps://www.life.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-jones-031570198/Natalie Whitehead, Founder and Director, Exeter Science Centrehttps://exetersciencecentre.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalie-whitehead-17323ba9/Stephen Breslin, CEO, Glasgow Science Centre and Chair of ASDChttps://www.glasgowsciencecentre.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-breslin-b331135b/Shaaron Leverment - CEO, Association for Science and Discovery Centres ASDChttps://www.sciencecentres.org.uk/events/asdc-conference-2025/https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaaron-leverment-74b53b50/ Skip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth. Download your FREE copy here

This week on Skip The Queue we explore the science behind ensuring good visitor experiences, by looking at the role data has to play in thisJoining me are two experts in this field, Professor Jim Deegan, economist, tourism policy expert, and founder of the National Centre for Tourism Policy Studies at the University of Limerick, and Ernesto Sánchez- Batista, an expert in destination planning and digital transformation.Together, they have been instrumental in developing a new Tourism Data Dashboard. This has been utilised to transform the visitor experience at The Cliffs of Moher, one of  Ireland's most iconic landmarks.Let's find out how, and what they've achieved.  We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookSkip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.Show references:  Jim Deegan - PHD Scholar of Cliffs of Moer Projecthttps://www.cliffsofmoher.ie/https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41721501.htmlhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-deegan-94438b2a/Jim Deegan is the Director of the National Centre for Tourism Policy Studies (NCTPS), University of Limerick(UL), a member of the Economics Department( Head of department, 2011-2016) ) and Professor of Tourism Policy. He is an economist by training and his research interests and publications are in all facets of public policy for tourism. Jim is a highly cited author in tourism economics/policy papers and he acts as a referee for all the top rated international journals in tourism and has served on editorial boards of numerous journals that have included the Cornell Quarterly and Tourism Economics. As director of the NCTPS at UL he has raised more than €6 million through project research and philanthropic donations  that has funded research scholarships for more than 25 students to study tourism at postgraduate level. Jim has undertaken project research on behalf of the World Bank, The European Commission, Eurostat, The Irish Government, Failte Ireland, Tourism Ireland, the Marine Institute, the Law Society and many other public and private sector organisations across the world. He was the project lead for the team that delivered Ireland's first Tourism Satellite Account in 2004.Jim has served on numerous public and private sector committees/boards on tourism issues over the last 25 years and was a founding member of the Business Tourism Forum of Failte Ireland  from 2004 and was appointed to the Board of The National Tourism Development Authority( Failte Ireland) by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport in 2013. He is currently a board member of the Birr Scientific and Heritage Foundation. Jim was the founding chairman and a shareholder in Treaty Radio Ltd that was sold to UTV PLC for €15.7million in 2002. Ernesto Batista Sánchez - PHD Scholar of Cliffs of Moer Projecthttps://www.ul.ie/business/departments/department-economics/research/national-centre-tourism-policy-studieshttps://www.linkedin.com/in/ebats/Ernesto Batista Sánchez is a PhD researcher at the National Centre for Tourism Policy Studies (NCTPS), Kemmy Business School, University of Limerick, Ireland. Prior to this, he worked as an Assistant Professor in Tourism programmes at the University of Holguín, Cuba. He graduated with a first-class honours MA in International Tourism from the University of Limerick in 2020 and holds a PhD from the University of Holguín (2024). His research explores the application of technology and data analysis in tourism. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

We've got a frightfully good episode for you today on Skip The Queue. We're taking a trip to the dark side… where screams echo, shadows stir and the scare actors never seem to take a night off.We're joined by the team behind Avon Valley's FEAR Scream Park, a family-run adventure park with more than 35 years of experience, and now home to one of the UK's most terrifying Halloween events.Winners of Best Event Entertainment at the 2024 Thrill Nation Halloween Awards, Avon Valley has mastered the art of blending immersive theatre, multi-sensory scares and spine-tingling attractions that keep thrill seekers coming back for more.From scare zones to scream-worthy shows, and even a ‘scaredy-cat lanyard' for those who'd rather keep the monsters at arm's length, there's something for everyone who dares to step inside.Let's unmask what's new this year at FEAR… We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookSkip the Queue is brought to you by Crowd Convert. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.Show references:  FEAR Avon Valley Scream Parkhttps://www.fearscreampark.co.uk/Avon Valley Adventure Parkhttps://avonvalley.co.uk/Doug Douglas on LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-douglas-87826038/National Farm Attractions Network (NFAN)https://www.farmattractions.net/Halloween and Scare Attraction Association (HSAA)https://www.hsaa.uk/Avon Valley Adventure Park is a family business with 35 years of experienceWinner of Best Event Entertainment at the 2024 Thrill Nation Halloween Awards, Avon Valley's FEAR Scream Park offers a unique and thrilling experience for Halloween and adrenaline lovers across the UK and beyond. Re-opening on Friday 10th October, FEAR Scream Park will welcome visitors for 11 nights of scares. Boasting two zones, five multi-sensory and immersive scare attractions, it will also play host to fire and laser shows, street entertainment and a ‘bolt on' scare experience known as The Exorcism. Visitors will be challenged to hold their nerve as they navigate the attractions and enjoy a night that is as thrilling as it is terrifying.FEAR welcomes all who dare to experience its horrors but for those who prefer a less intense night the park offers a 'scaredy-cat lanyard,' which lets actors know to keep their distance allowing all guests to have a bloody good night. FEARless at Avon Valley Scream ParkFor those on half term, younger scare-lovers can experience the award-winning FEAR Scream Park with FEARless, a frightfully fun experience that invites under 16 year olds to navigate a tamed-down version of four attraction mazes with no major scares (but still plenty of spooks) along the way. With street performers, food stalls and fairground rides, the event is running for select daytime slots from Saturday 26th - Thursday 31st October.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Paul Marden and Andy Povey head to the VAC 2025 Conference at the Queen Elizabeth II Centre in Westminster, London, to explore the evolving world of attraction retail and e-commerce.With special participation from Skip the Queue's founding host, Kelly Molson, the conversation delves into practical steps for creating seamless, authentic and profitable online experiences.Joining him are industry experts Stephen Spencer, Director of Stephen Spencer and Associates, and Simon Jones, Managing Director of Navigate Agency, to discuss how attractions can create e-commerce gift shops that truly enhance the visitor experience.They discuss the Visitor Attraction Playbook and explore how storytelling, sustainability and smart integration can transform your retail offer from an afterthought into a powerful brand extension.This episode also marks the launch of our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop' — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbook Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director of Stephen Spencer and Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/Simon Jones, Managing Director of Navigate Agencyhttps://www.navigate.agency/https://www.linkedin.com/in/simontjones/Kelly Molson, Skip the Queue's founding host, Agency Advisor, Kelly Molson Consultinghttps://www.kellymolson.co.uk/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolson/ The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Paul Marden heads to the AVEA conference in front of a LIVE audience to find out why gift shops are such an important part of the attraction mix. Joining him is Jennifer Kennedy, Retail Consultant, JK Consulting and Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company. They discuss why your gift shop is an integral part of your brand and why it needs to be just as good as the experience you have on offer. This coinsides with the launch of our brand new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide To Going Beyond The Gift Shop', where you can find out exactly how to improve your online offering to take your ecommerce to the next level. Download your FREE copy here:  https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbookBut that's not all. Paul walks the conference floor and speaks to:Susanne Reid, CEO of Christchurch Cathedral Dublin, on how they are celebrating their millennium anniversary - 1000 years!Charles Coyle, Managing Director, Emerald Park, on how they are bringing AI integrations to enhance their booking processesRay Dempsey, General Manager of The Old Jamerson Distillery on how they offering more accessible touring optionsIt's a mega episode and one you'll not want to miss. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Jennifer Kennedy — Founder, JK Consultinghttps://jkconsultingnyc.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-kennedy-aba75712/Michael Dolan — Managing Director, Shamrock Gift Companyhttps://www.shamrockgiftcompany.com/Catherine Toolan — Managing Director, Guinness Storehouse & Global Head of Brand Homes, Diageohttp://diageo.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinetoolan/Máirín Walsh — Operations Manager, Waterford Museumhttps://www.waterfordtreasures.com/Dean Kelly — Photography & Visitor Experience Specialist https://www.wearephotoexperience.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dean-kelly-1259a316/Charles Coyle — Managing Director, Emerald Parkhttps://www.emeraldpark.ieSusanne Reid — CEO, Christ Church Cathedral Dublinhttp://www.christchurchcathedral.iehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/susannereid/Ray Dempsey — General Manager, Jameson Distilleryhttps://www.jamesonwhiskey.com/en-ie/visit-our-distilleries/jameson-bow-street-distillery-tour/https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-dempsey-37a8665a/ Transcription: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast that tells the stories behind the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. In today's episode, I'm at the AVEA 2025 conference in Waterford, Ireland, and we're talking about gift shop best practices. With Jennifer Kennedy from JK Consulting, a tourism and retail consultancy. And Jennifer led retail at Guinness Storehouse for more years than she would care to mention, I think. And we're also here with Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company, who has brought along the most amazing array of gift shop merchandise, which I'm sure we'll get into talking a little something about later on. And I've also got an amazing live audience. Say hello, everybody.Everyone: Hello.Paul Marden: There we go. So we always start with icebreaker that I don't prepare the two of you. Now this is probably a very unfair question for the pair of you, actually. What's the quirkiest souvenir you've ever bought? I can think of those little, the ones that you get in Spain are the little pooping santas.Jennifer  Kennedy: I have a thing for Christmas decorations when I go on travel, so for me, there always tends to be something around having a little decoration on my tree every year. That if I've had one or two holidays or I've been away, that has some little thing that comes back that ends up on the tree of Christmas. I have a lovely little lemon from Amalfi that's a Christmas decoration, and so you know, so a little kind of quirky things like that.Paul Marden: Michael, what about you? Michael  Dolan: One of our designers who will remain nameless? She has a thing about poo. So everyone brings her back to some poo relation. Paul Marden: Sadly, there's quite a lot of that around at the moment, isn't there? That's a bit disappointing. First question then, what's the point of a gift shop? If I put that in a more eloquent way, why are gift shops such an important part of the attraction mix?Jennifer  Kennedy: Okay, it was from my point of view, the gift shop in an attraction or a destination is the ultimate touch point that the brand has to leave a lasting memory when visitors go away. So for me, they're intrinsically important in the complete 360 of how your brand shows up— as a destination or an attraction. And without a really good gift shop and really good product to take away from it, you're letting your brand down. And it's an integral piece that people can share. From a marketing point of view, every piece of your own product that's been developed, that's taken away to any part of the world can sit in someone's kitchen. It can be in multiple forms. It can be a fridge magnet. It could be a tea towel. It could be anything. But it's a connection to your brand and the home that they visited when they chose to be wherever they're visiting. So for me, I'm very passionate about the fact that your gift shop should be as good as everything else your experience has to offer. So that's my view on it. Michael  Dolan: Sometimes it's neglected when people create a new visitor attraction. They don't put enough time into the retail element. I think that's changing, and a very good example of that would be Game of Thrones in Banbridge. We worked with them for two years developing the range, but also the shop. So the shop reflects the... I actually think the shop is the best part of the whole experience. But the shop reflects the actual whole experience.  Jennifer  Kennedy: The teaming.Michael  Dolan: The teaming. So you have banners throughout the shop, the music, the lighting, it looks like a dungeon. All the display stands have swords in them, reflecting the theme of the entrance.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, it's a good example of how a brand like that has incorporated the full essence and theme of why they exist into their physical retail space.Paul Marden: They definitely loosened a few pounds out of my pocket. Michael  Dolan: Another good example is Titanic Belfast. So they spent 80 million on that visitor attraction, which was opened in 2012, but they forgot about the shop. So the architect who designed the building designed the shop that looked like something out of the Tate Gallery. Yeah, and we went and said, 'This shop is not functional; it won't work for our type of product.' They said, 'We don't have anything in the budget to redevelop the shop.' So we paid a Dublin architect to redesign the shop. So the shop you have today, that design was paid for by Shamrock Gift Company. And if you've been in the shop, it's all brass, wood, ropes. So it's an integral part of the overall experience. But unfortunately... you can miss the shop on the way out.Paul Marden: Yeah, it is very easy to walk out the building and not engage in the shop itself. It's a bit like a dessert for a meal, isn't it? The meal's not complete if you've not had a dessert. And I think the gift shop experience is a little bit like that. The trip to the experience isn't finished.  If you haven't exited through the gate. Michael  Dolan: But it's the lasting memories that people bring back to the office in New York, put the mug on the table to remind people of when they're in Belfast or Dublin to go to. You know, storehouse or Titanic. So those last impressions are indelibly, you know, set.Paul Marden: So we've already said the positioning of the shop then is super important, how it feels, but product is super important, isn't it? What product you fill into the shop is a make or break experience? How do you go about curating the right product? Michael  Dolan: Most important is authenticity. You know, it has to be relevant to the visitor attraction. So it's not a question of just banging out a few key rings and magnets. So I brought you along some samples there. So we're doing two new ranges, one for Titanic and one for the Royal Yacht Britannia, and they're totally different. But reflect the personality of each attraction.Paul Marden: Absolutely.Michael  Dolan: I mean, a good example, we worked together or collaborated together on many, many projects in Guinness. But we also worked in St. Patrick's Cathedral.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah.Michael  Dolan: You were the consultant.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, yeah. So I suppose, again, from the product point of view. Yeah, if you can root product in why the experience exists. So in that example, a cathedral is a great example of how you can create really great product by utilising. Well, the main reason people are there is because this amazing building exists and the historic elements of it. So I suppose to make it real, some examples of products that connected with the audience in that environment are things like a little stone coaster. But the stone coaster is a replica of the floor you're standing on. So I suppose the other balance in attractions is realistic price points and realistic products. So there's no point in creating a range of products that's outside the price point of what your visitors are prepared to pay. So it's that fine balance of creating product that connects with them, which is, I'm using the cathedral as an example because you've got architraves, you've got stained glass windows, you've got stunning tiles. So all the elements of the fabric of that building. Can be utilised to create really beautiful products, but castles, you know, cathedrals, all of those sorts of spaces.Jennifer  Kennedy: When we start talking about product, always we go to, 'why are we here?' And also the storytelling elements. There's some beautiful stories that can, I can give you another really great example of a product that was created for another cathedral, which was... So in cathedral spaces, there's all these stunning doors that run the whole way through, like they're spectacular; they're like pieces of art in their own right. And every one of them has a very unique ornate key that unlocks each door. So one of the products that did one of the cathedrals was we wanted to create a ring of brass keys with replicas of all the keys in the cathedral. But as we were progressing, we forgot at the start— it was like we forgot to tell them to scale them down. They weren't the same size as all the keys in the cathedral. So it was a very intrinsically specific gift to this particular cathedral. And it's been used ever since as kind of the special gift they give to people who come to visit from all over the world. They get quite emotional about this particular gift because it's like this is the actual replica of all the keys to all the doors in the cathedral.Jennifer  Kennedy: So it's a product that's completely born. It can never be replicated anywhere else. And it's completely unique to that particular space. And I think that's the power of, for me, that's what authenticity feels and looks like in these environments. It has to be connected to the fabric of why you exist.Paul Marden: Yeah, so I was at Big Pit in Wales six months ago, I think it was. Museums Wales are redeveloping all of their gift shops and they are going through exactly that process that you're talking about, but bringing it back to the place itself because all, I think, it's six of their museums, the gift shops had much the same set of product. They described it as, you know, you were just walking into a generic Welsh gift shop with the dressed lady.Jennifer  Kennedy: And it's hard— like it really takes an awful lot of work— like it doesn't just happen, like you really have to put a lot of thought and planning into what our product should and could look like. And then, when you've aligned on with the team of people managing and running these businesses, that this is the direction you want to take, then it's the operational element of it. It's about sourcing, MOQs, and price, and all of that stuff that comes into it. Minimum order quantities.Michael  Dolan: That's where we come in. So, you know, we met Jennifer in St. Patrick's and we met Liz then, we met the Dean. So we really sat around and talked about what were the most important elements in the cathedral that we wanted to celebrate in product.Michael  Dolan: And St. Patrick obviously was the obvious number one element. Then they have a harp stained glass window. And then they have a shamrock version of that as well. So they were the three elements that we hit on. You know, it took a year to put those three ranges together. So we would have started out with our concept drawings, which we presented to the team in St. Patrick's. They would have approved them. Then we would have talked to them about the size of the range and what products we were looking at. So then we would have done the artwork for those separate ranges, brought them back in to get them approved, go to sampling, bring the samples back in, then sit down and talk about pricing, minimum order quantities, delivery times.Michael  Dolan: So the sample, you know, so that all goes out to order and then it arrives in about four or five months later into our warehouse. So we carry all the risk. We design everything, we source it, make sure that it's safely made, all the tests are confirmed that the products are good. In conformity with all EU legislation. It'll be in our warehouse and then it's called off the weekly basis. So we carry, we do everything.  So one stop shop. Paul Marden: So the traction isn't even sitting on stock that they've invested in. We know what we're doing and we're quite happy to carry the risk. So one of the things we were talking about just before we started the episode was the challenges of sourcing locally. It's really important, isn't it? But it can be challenging to do that.Jennifer  Kennedy: It can. And, you know, but I would say in recent years, there's a lot more creators and makers have come to the fore after COVID. So in kind of more... Specifically, kind of artisan kind of product types. So things like candles are a great example where, you know, now you can find great candle makers all over Ireland with, you know, small minimum quantity requirements. And also they can bespoke or tailor it to your brand. So if you're a museum or if you're a, again, whatever the nature of your brand is, a national store or whatever, you can have a small batch made. Which lets you have something that has provenance. And here it's Irish made, it's Irish owned. And then there's some, you know, it just it gives you an opportunity.Jennifer  Kennedy: Unfortunately, we're never going to be in a position where we can source everything we want in Ireland. It just isn't realistic. And commercially, it's not viable. As much as you can, you should try and connect with the makers and creators that they are available and see if small batches are available. And they're beautiful to have within your gift store, but they also have to be the balance of other commercial products that will have to be sourced outside of Ireland will also have to play a significant role as well.Máirín Walsh: I think there needs to be a good price point as well. Like, you know, we find that in our museum, that, you know, if something is above 20, 25 euro, the customer has to kind of really think about purchasing it, where if it's 20 euro or under, you know, it's...Michael  Dolan: More of an input item, yeah.Máirín Walsh: Yes, exactly, yeah.Paul Marden: And so when it's over that price point, that's when you need to be sourcing locally again. Máirín Walsh: It's a harder sell. You're kind of maybe explaining a bit more to them and trying to get them to purchase it. You know, they have to think about it.Jennifer  Kennedy: But it's also good for the storytelling elements as well because it helps you engage. So I've often found as well that even train the teams and the customer service. It's actually a lovely space to have, to be able to use it as part of storytelling that we have this locally made or it's made in Cork or wherever it's coming from, that it's Irish made.Máirín Walsh: We have, what have we got? We've kind of got scarves and that and we have local— we had candles a few years ago actually. I think they were made or... up the country or whatever. But anyway, it was at Reginald's Tower and there were different kinds of candles of different attractions around and they really connected with your audience.Michael  Dolan: So 20% of our turnover would be food and all that is made in Ireland. Virtually all of that is sourced locally here in Ireland. And that's a very important part of our overall product portfolio and growing as well.Paul Marden: Is it important to serve different audiences with the right product? So I'm thinking... Making sure that there's pocket money items in there for kids, because often when they come to a museum or attraction, it's their first time they ever get to spend their own money on a transaction. Yeah, that would be their first memory of shopping. So giving them what they need, but at the same time having that 25 euro and over price point. To have a real set piece item is?Jennifer  Kennedy: I would say that's very specific to the brand. Paul Marden: Really? Jennifer  Kennedy: Yes, because some brands can't actually sell products or shouldn't be selling products to children. Paul Marden: Really? I'm looking at the Guinness items at the end of the table.Jennifer  Kennedy: So it depends on the brand. So obviously, in many of the destinations around Ireland, some of them are quite heavily family-oriented. And absolutely in those environments where you've got gardens, playgrounds or theme parks. Absolutely. You have to have that range of product that's very much tailored to young families and children. In other environments, not necessarily. But you still need to have a range that appeals to the masses. Because you will have visitors from all walks of life and with all perspectives. So it's more about having something. I'm going to keep bringing it back to it. It's specific to why this brand is here. And if you can create product within a fair price point, and Mairin is absolutely right. The balance of how much your products cost to the consumer will make or break how your retail performs. And in most destinations, what you're actually aiming to do is basket size. You want them to go away with three, four, five products from you, not necessarily one.Jennifer  Kennedy: Because if you think about it, that's more beneficial for the brand. I mean, most people are buying for gifting purposes. They're bringing things back to multiple people. So, if I'm able to pick up a nice candle and it's eight or 10 euros, well, I might buy three of them if it's a beautiful candle in a nice package. Whereas, if I went in and the only option available to me was a 35-euro candle, I probably might buy that, but I'm only buying one product. And I'm only giving that to either myself or one other person. Whereas, if you can create a range that's a good price, but it's also appealing and very connected to why they came to visit you in the first place, then that's a much more powerful, for the brand point of view, that's a much more... Powerful purchasing options are available to have a basket size that's growing.Michael  Dolan: We worked together in the National Stud in Kildare, so we did a great kids range of stationery, which worked really well. We've just done a new range for the GAA museum, all stationery-related, because they get a lot of kids. Again, we would have collaborated on that.Jennifer  Kennedy: And actually, the natural studs are a really nice example as well, because from even a textile point of view, you can lean into equine as the, so you can do beautiful products with ponies and horses. Yeah. You know, so again, some brands make it very, it's easy to see the path that you can take with product. And then others are, you know, you have to think harder. It's a little bit more challenging. So, and particularly for cultural and heritage sites, then that really has to be grounded in what are the collections, what is on offer in these sites, in these museums, in these heritage sites, and really start to unravel the stories that you can turn into product.Paul Marden: But a product isn't enough, is it?Jennifer  Kennedy: Absolutely not.Paul Marden: Set making, merchandising, storytelling, they all engage the customer, don't they?Jennifer  Kennedy: 100%.Paul Marden: Where have you seen that being done well in Ireland?Michael  Dolan: Get a store is the preeminent example, I would think. I mean, it's a stunning shop. Have you met Catherine too? Paul Marden: No, not yet. Lovely to meet you, Catherine.  Michael  Dolan: Catherine is in charge of getting the stories. Paul Marden: Okay. Any other examples that aren't, maybe, sat at the table? Game of Thrones is a really good example and Titanic.Michael  Dolan: Game of Thrones.  I think Titanic's good. The new shop in Trinity College is very strong, I think. So it's a temporary digital exhibition while they're revamping the library. They've done an excellent job in creating a wonderful new shop, even on a temporary basis.Jennifer  Kennedy: I would say Crowe Park as well. The GAA museum there has undergone a full refurbishment and it's very tailored towards their audience. So they're very, it's high volume, very specific to their... And the look and feel is very much in keeping with the nature of the reason why people go to Crowe Park. I would say the Irish National Asteroid as well. And Colmar Abbey, Cliffs of Moher. We've got some really great offers all over the island of Ireland.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I was at W5 recently in Belfast and I think that is a brilliant example of what a Science Centre gift shop could be like. Because often there will be the kind of generic stuff that you'll see in any attraction— a notebook with rubber and a pencil— but they also had lots of, there were lots of science-led toys and engineering-led toys, so they had... big Lego section. It was like going into a proper toy shop. It was just a really impressive gift shop that you could imagine engaging a kid.Catherine Toolan: And if I could come in there for an example outside of Ireland, you've got the House of Lego in Billund. I don't know if anybody has been there, but they've got a customised range, which is only available. Really? Yes, and it's so special. They've got a really unique building, so the Lego set is in the shape of the building. They've got their original dock. But the retail store in that space, it's very geared towards children as Lego is, but also imagination play. So they've done a brilliant job on looking at, you know, the texture of their product, the colour of their product. And whilst it's usually geared to children, it's also geared to adult lovers of Lego. So it's beautiful. Huge tech as well. They've incredible RFID wristbands, which you get from your ticket at the beginning of the experience. So all of your photo ops and everything you can download from the RFID wristband. Very cool.Jennifer  Kennedy: Actually, I would say it's probably from a tech point of view, one of the best attractions I've been to in recent years. Like, it's phenomenal. I remember going there the year it opened first because it was fascinating. I have two boys who are absolutely Lego nuts. And I just— we went to the home of LEGO in Billund when it opened that year and I just was blown away. I had never experienced, and I go to experiences everywhere, but I've never, from a tech point of view and a brand engagement perspective, understood the nature, the type of product that they deliver. For me, it's, like I said, I tell everyone to go to Billund. Paul Marden: Really? We've got such amazing jobs, haven't we? However, as you're both talking, I'm thinking you're a bit like me. You don't get to go and enjoy the experience for the experience's own sake because you're looking at what everybody's doing.Jennifer  Kennedy: But can I actually just add to that? There's another one in the Swarovski Crystal in Austria.Paul Marden: Really?Jennifer  Kennedy: That is phenomenal. And in terms of their retail space, it's like, I like a bit of sparkle, so I'm not going to lie. It was like walking into heaven. And their retail offering there is world-class in that store. And the whole brand experience from start to finish, which is what you're always trying to achieve. It's the full 360 of full immersion. You're literally standing inside a giant crystal. It's like being in a dream. Right. A crystal, sparkly dream from start to finish. And then, every year, they partner and collaborate with whoever— designers, musicians, whoever's iconic or, you know, very... present in that year or whatever. And they do these wonderful collaborations and partnerships with artists, designers, you name it.Paul Marden: Sorry, Catherine, there you go.Catherine Toolan: Thank you very much. It's on my list of places to go, but I do know the team there and what they're also doing is looking at the premiumization. So they close their retail store for high net worth individuals to come in and buy unique and special pieces. You know, they use their core experience for the daytime. And we all talk about the challenges. I know, Tom, you talk about this, you know, how do you scale up visitor experience when you're at capacity and still make sure you've a brilliant net promoter score and that the experience of the customer is fantastic. So that is about sweating the acid and you know it's that good, better, best. You know they have something for everybody but they have that halo effect as well.  So it's really cool.Paul Marden: Wow. Thank you. I'm a bit of a geek. I love a bit of technology. What do you think technology is doing to the gift shop experience? Are there new technologies that are coming along that are going to fundamentally change the way the gift shop experience works?Jennifer  Kennedy: I think that's rooted in the overall experience. So I don't think it's a separate piece. I think there's loads of things out there now where you can, you know, virtual mirrors have been around for years and all these other really interesting. The whole gamification piece, if you're in an amazing experience and you're getting prompts and things to move an offer today, but so that's that's been around for quite some time. I'm not sure that it's been fully utilised yet across the board, especially in I would say there's a way to go in how it influences the stores in Ireland in attractions at the moment. There'll be only a handful who I'd say are using technology, mainly digital screens, is what I'm experiencing and seeing generally. And then, if there is a big attraction, some sort of prompts throughout that and how you're communicating digitally through the whole experience to get people back into the retail space. Paul Marden: Yeah, I can imagine using tech to be able to prompt somebody at the quiet times of the gift shop. Michael  Dolan: Yeah, also Guinness now you can order a pint glass with your own message on it in advance. It's ready for you when you finish your tour. You go to a locker and you just open the locker and you walk out with your glass. Catherine Toolan: Could I just say, though, that you just don't open a locker like it's actually lockers? There's a lot of customisation to the lockers because the idea came from the original Parcel Motel. So the locker is actually you key in a code and then when you open the customised locker, there's a Guinness quote inside it and your personalised glass is inside it. And the amount of customers and guests that we get to say, could we lock the door again? We want to actually open it and have that. whole experience so you know that's where I think in you know and one of the questions that would be really interesting to talk about is you know, what about self-scanning and you know, the idea of checkouts that are not having the human connection. Is that a thing that will work when you've got real experiences? I don't know. But we know that the personalisation of the engraved glasses and how we've custom designed the lockers— not to just be set of lockers— has made that difference. So they're very unique, they're colourful, they're very Guinnessified. And of course, the little personal quote that you get when you open the locker from our archives, make that a retail experience that's elevated. Paul Marden: Wow.Jennifer  Kennedy: But I would also say to your point on that, that the actual, the real magic is also in the people, in the destinations, because it's not like gift shops and destinations and experiences. They're not like high street and they shouldn't be. It should be a very different experience that people are having when they've paid to come and participate with you in your destination. So I actually think technology inevitably plays a role and it's a support and it will create lovely quirks and unusual little elements throughout the years.Paul Marden: I think personalisation is great.  Jennifer  Kennedy: And personalisation, absolutely. But the actual, like I would be quite against the idea of automating checkout and payouts in gift shops, in destinations, because for me... That takes away the whole essence of the final touch point is actually whoever's talked to you when you did that transaction and whoever said goodbye or asked how your experience was or did you enjoy yourself? So those you can't you can't replace that with without a human personal touch. So for me, that's intrinsically important, that it has to be retained, that the personal touch is always there for the goodbye.Dean Kelly: I'm very happy that you brought up the human touch. I'm a photo company, I do pictures. And all the time when we're talking to operators, they're like, 'Can we make it self-serve? Can we get rid of the staffing costs?' I'm like, 'I'm a photographer. Photographers take pictures of people. We need each other to engage, react, and put the groups together. No, we don't want the staff costs. But I'm like, it's not about the staff costs. It's about the customer's experience. So all day long, our challenge is, more so in the UK now, because we operate in the UK, and everybody over there is very, we don't want the staff.' And I think, if you lose the staff engagement, especially taking a picture, you lose the memory and you lose the moment. And photographers have a really good job to do, a very interesting job, is where to capture people together. And if you lose that person— touch point of getting the togetherness— You just have people touching the screen, which they might as well be on their phone.Paul Marden: And the photo won't look as good, will it? Anybody could take a photo, but it takes a photographer to make people look like they're engaged and happy and in the moment.Dean Kelly: Yeah, exactly, and a couple of other points that you mentioned— with the brand, personalisation, gamification, all that kind of cool, juicy stuff, all the retail stuff, people going home with the memory, the moment, all that stuff's cool, but nobody mentioned photos until Cashin, you mentioned photos. We've had a long conversation with photos for a long time, and we'll probably be still chatting for another long time as well. But photography is a super, super retail revenue stream. But it's not about the revenue, it's about the moment and the magic. Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, you're capturing the magic. Dean Kelly: Capturing it. And fair enough that what you guys do at Shamrock is very interesting because you talk to the operators. You kind of go, 'What gifts are going to work for your visitors?' And you turn that into a product. And that's exactly what we do with all the experiences. We take pictures.Dean Kelly: But what's your demographic saying? What's your price points? What's your brand? What's your message? And let's turn that into a personalised souvenir, put the people in the brand, and let them take it home and engage with it.Paul Marden: So... I think one of the most important things is how you blend the gift shop with the rest of the experience. You were giving a good example of exiting through the gift shop. It's a very important thing, isn't it? But if you put it in the wrong place, you don't get that. How do you blend the gift shop into the experience?Jennifer  Kennedy: Well, I would say I wouldn't call it a blend. For me, the retail element of the brand should be a wow. Like it should be as invaluable, as important as everything else. So my perspective would be get eyes on your retail offering sooner rather than later. Not necessarily that they will participate there and then.Jennifer  Kennedy: The visual and the impact it has on seeing a wow— this looks like an amazing space. This looks like with all these products, but it's also— I was always chasing the wow. I want you to go, wow, this looks amazing. Because, to me, that's when you've engaged someone that they're not leaving until they've gotten in there. It is important that people can potentially move through it at the end. And, you know, it depends on the building. It depends on the structure. You know, a lot of these things are taken out of your hands. You've got to work with what you've got. Jennifer  Kennedy: But you have to work with what you've got, not just to blend it, to make it stand out as exceptional. Because that's actually where the magic really starts. And it doesn't matter what brand that is. The aim should always be that your retail offering is exceptional from every touch point. And it shouldn't be obvious that we've spent millions in creating this wonderful experience. And now you're being shoehorned into the poor relation that was forgotten a little bit and now has ten years later looks a bit ramshackle. And we're trying to figure out why we don't get what we should out of it.Michael  Dolan: And it has to be an integral part of the whole experience.Jennifer  Kennedy: Yeah, and I think for new experiences that are in planning stages, I've seen that more and more in recent years. Now, where I was being called to retrofix or rip out things going, this doesn't work, I'm like, okay, well, we have to retro do this. Now, when people are doing new builds or new investments into new spaces, I'm getting those calls at the planning stages where it's like, we've allocated this amount of space to retail. Do you think that's enough? And I don't think I've ever said yes, ever. At every single turn, I'm like... No, it's not enough. And, you know, what's your anticipated football? Oh, that's the numbers start to play a role in it. But it's not just about that. It's about the future proofing. It's like what happens in five years, 10 years, 15? Because I've been very lucky to work in buildings where it's not easy to figure out where you're going to go next. And particularly heritage sites and cultural heritage. Like I can't go in and knock a hole in the crypt in Christchurch Cathedral. But I need a bigger retail space there.Jennifer  Kennedy: The earlier you start to put retail as a central commercial revenue stream in your business, the more eyes you have on it from the get-go, the more likely it is that it will be successful. Not now, not in five years, not in ten years, but that you're building blocks for this, what can become. Like it should be one of your strongest revenue streams after ticket sales because that's what it can become. But you have to go at it as this is going to be amazing.Catherine Toolan: I think it's important that it's not a hard sell and that's in your face. And, you know, that's where, when you think about the consumer journey, we always think about the behavioural science of the beginning, the middle, and the end. And people remember three things. You know, there's lots of other touch points. But if retail is a really hard sell throughout the experience, I don't think the net promoter score of your overall experience will, you know, come out, especially if you're, you know, and we're not a children's destination. An over 25 adult destination at the Guinness Storehouse and at our alcohol brand homes. But what's really important is that it's authentic, it's really good, and it's highly merchandised, and that it's unique. I think that uniqueness is it— something that you can get that you can't get anywhere else. You know, how do you actually, one of the things that we would have done if we had it again, we would be able to make our retail store available to the domestic audience, to the public without buying a ticket. So, you know, you've got that opportunity if your brand is the right brand that you can have walk-in off the high street, for example.Catherine Toolan: So, you know, there's so many other things that you can think about because that's an extension of your revenue opportunity where you don't have to come in to do the whole experience. And that is a way to connect the domestic audience, which is something I know a lot of the members of the Association, AVEA are trying to do. You know, how do we engage and connect and get repeat visits and and retail is a big opportunity to do that, especially at gifting season.Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah, sustainability is increasingly important to the narrative of the whole retail experience, isn't it? How do you make sure that we're not going about just selling plastic tat that nobody's going to look after?Michael  Dolan: We've made this a core value for Shamrock Gift Company, so we've engaged with a company called Clearstream Solutions, the same company that Guinness Store has. have worked with them. So it's a long-term partnership. So they've measured our carbon footprint from 2019 to 2023. So we've set ourselves the ambitious target of being carbon neutral by 2030.Michael  Dolan: So just some of the elements that we've engaged in. So we put 700 solar panels on our roof as of last summer. All our deliveries in Dublin are done with electric vans, which we've recently purchased. All the lights in the building now are LED. Motion-sensored as well. All the cars are electric or that we've purchased recently, and we've got a gas boiler. So we've also now our shipments from China we're looking at biodiesel. So that's fully sustainable. And we also, where we can't use biodiesel, we're doing carbon offsetting as well.Paul Marden: So a lot of work being done in terms of the cost of CO2 of the transport that you're doing. What about the product itself? How do you make sure that the product itself is inherently something that people are going to treasure and is not a throwaway item?Michael  Dolan: We're using more sustainable materials, so a lot more stone, a lot more wood. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Michael  Dolan: Yeah. Also, it begins with great design. Yeah. So, you know, and obviously working with our retail partners, make sure that the goods are very well designed, very well manufactured. So we're working with some wonderful, well, best in class manufacturers around the world. Absolutely.Jennifer  Kennedy: I think as well, if... you can, and it's becoming easier to do, if you can collaborate with some creators and makers that are actually within your location.Jennifer  Kennedy: Within Ireland, there's a lot more of that happening, which means sourcing is closer to home. But you also have this other economy that's like the underbelly of the craft makers market in Ireland, which is fabulous, which needs to be brought to the fore. So collaborations with brands can also form a very integral part of product development that's close to home and connected to people who are here—people who are actually creating product in Ireland.Paul Marden: This is just instinct, not knowledge at all. But I would imagine that when you're dealing with those local crafters and makers, that they are inherently more sustainable because they're creating things local to you. It's not just the distance that's...Jennifer  Kennedy: Absolutely, but in any instances that I'm aware of that I've been involved with, anyway, even the materials and their mythology, yeah, is all grounded in sustainability and which is fabulous to see. Like, there's more and there's more and more coming all the time.Michael  Dolan: We've got rid of 3 million bags a year. Key rings, mags used to be individually bagged. And now there are 12 key rings in a bag that's biodegradable. That alone is 2 million bags.Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it? When you look at something as innocuous as the bag itself that it's packaged in before it's shipped out. You can engineer out of the supply chain quite a lot of unnecessary packaging Michael  Dolan: And likewise, then for the retailer, they don't have to dispose of all that packaging. So it's a lot easier and cleaner to put the product on the shelf. Yes.Paul Marden: Something close to my heart, online retail. Have you seen examples where Irish attractions have extended their gift shop experience online, particularly well?Jennifer  Kennedy: For instance, there are a few examples, but what I was thinking more about on that particular thought was around the nature of the brand again and the product that, in my experience, the brands that can do that successfully tend to have something on offer that's very nostalgic or collectible. Or memorabilia and I think there are some examples in the UK potentially that are where they can be successful online because they have a brand or a product that people are collecting.Paul Marden: Yeah, so one of my clients is Jane Austen House, only about two miles away from where I live. And it blew me away the importance of their online shop to them. They're tiny. I mean, it is a little cottage in the middle of Hampshire, but they have an international audience for their gift shop. And it's because they've got this really, really committed audience of Jane Austen fans who want to buy something from the house. Then everybody talks about the Tank Museum in Dorset.Paul Marden: Who make a fortune selling fluffy tank slippers and all you could possibly imagine memorabilia related to tanks. Because again, it's that collection of highly curated products and this really, really committed audience of people worldwide. Catherine Toolan: The Tank were here last year presenting at the AVEA conference and it was such an incredible story about their success and, you know, how they went from a very small museum with a lot of support from government to COVID to having an incredible retail store, which is now driving their commercial success.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Nick has done a load of work. Yeah, that leads me nicely onto a note. So listeners, for a long time, Skip the Queue has been totally focused on the podcast. But today we have launched our first playbook. Which is hopefully the first of many. But the playbook that we're launching today is all about how attractions can focus on best practice for gift shop e-commerce. So we work with partners, Rubber Cheese, Navigate, and Stephen Spencer Associates. So Steve and his team has helped us to contribute to some sections to the guide around, how do you curate your product? How do you identify who the audience is? How do you create that collection? The team at Rubber Cheese talk about the mechanics of how do you put it online and then our friends at Navigate help you to figure out what the best way is to get bums on seats. So it was a crackpot idea of mine six months ago to put it together, and it is now huge.Paul Marden: It's packed full of advice, and that's gone live today. So you can go over to skipthequeue.fm and click on the Playbooks link there to go and download that. Thank you. So, Jennifer, Michael, it has been absolutely wonderful to talk to both of you. Thank you to my audience. You've also been fabulous. Well done. And what a packed episode that was. I get the feeling you two quite enjoy gift shops and retailing. You could talk quite a lot about it.Jennifer  Kennedy: I mean, I love it.  Paul Marden: That didn't come over at all. Jennifer  Kennedy: Well, I just think it's such a lovely way of connecting with people and keeping a connection, particularly from a brand point of view. It should be the icing on the cake, you know?Paul Marden: You're not just a market store salesperson, are you?Jennifer  Kennedy: And I thoroughly believe that the most successful ones are because the experiences that they're a part of sow the seeds. They plant the love, the emotion, the energy. All you're really doing is making sure that that magic stays with people when they go away. The brand experience is the piece that's actually got them there in the first place. Paul Marden: Now let's go over to the conference floor to hear from some Irish operators and suppliers.Charles  Coyle: I'm Charles Coyle. I'm the managing director of Emerald Park. We're Ireland's only theme park and zoo. We opened in November 2010, which shows you how naive and foolish we were that we opened a visitor attraction in the middle of winter. Fortunately, we survived it.Paul Marden: But you wouldn't open a visitor attraction in the middle of summer, so give yourself a little bit of a run-up to it. It's not a bad idea.Charles  Coyle: Well, that's true, actually. You know what? I'll say that from now on, that we had the genius to open in the winter. We're open 15 years now, and we have grown from very small, humble aspirations of maybe getting 150,000 people a year to we welcomed 810,000 last year. And we'll probably be in and around the same this year as well.  Paul Marden: Wowzers, that is really impressive. So we are here on the floor. We've already heard some really interesting talks. We've been talking about AI in the most recent one. What can we expect to happen for you in the season coming in?Charles  Coyle: Well, we are hopefully going to be integrating a lot of AI. There's possibly putting in a new booking system and things like that. A lot of that will have AI dynamic pricing, which has got a bad rap recently, but it has been done for years and years in hotels.Paul Marden: Human nature, if you ask people, should I be punished for travelling during the summer holidays and visiting in a park? No, that sounds terrible. Should I be rewarded for visiting during a quiet period? Oh, yes! Yes, I should definitely. It's all about perspective, isn't it? Very much so. And it is how much you don't want to price gouge people. You've got to be really careful. But I do think dynamic pricing has its place.Charles  Coyle: Oh, absolutely. I mean, a perfect example of it is right now, our top price is not going to go any higher, but it'll just be our lower price will be there more constantly, you know, and we'll... Be encouraging people to come in on the Tuesdays and Wednesdays, as you said, rewarding people for coming in at times in which we're not that busy and they're probably going to have a better day as a result.Susanne Reid: Hi, Suzanne Reid here. I'm the CEO at Christchurch Cathedral, Dublin. What are you here to get out of the conference? First and foremost, the conference is a great opportunity every year to... catch up with people that you may only see once a year from all corners of the country and it's also an opportunity to find out what's new and trending within tourism. We've just come from a really energising session on AI and also a very thought-provoking session on crisis management and the dangers of solar panels.Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, the story of We the Curious is definitely an interesting one. So we've just come off the back of the summer season. So how was that for you?Susanne Reid:Summer season started slower than we would have liked this year in 2025, but the two big American football matches were very strong for us in Dublin. Dublin had a reasonable season, I would say, and we're very pleased so far on the 13th of the month at how October is playing out. So hoping for a very strong finish to the year. So coming up to Christmas at Christchurch, we'll have a number of cathedral events. So typically our carol concerts, they tend to sell out throughout the season. Then we have our normal pattern of services and things as well.Paul Marden: I think it's really important, isn't it? You have to think back to this being a place of worship. Yes, it is a visitor attraction. Yes, that's an aside, isn't it? And the reason it is a place of worship.Susanne Reid: I think that's obviously back to what our earlier speaker was talking about today. That's our charitable purpose, the promotion of religion, Christianity. However, you know, Christchurch is one of the most visited attractions in the city.Susanne Reid: Primarily, people do come because it will be there a thousand years in 2028. So there is, you know, the stones speak really. And, you know, one of the sessions I've really benefited from this morning was around accessible tourism. And certainly that's a journey we're on at the cathedral because, you know, a medieval building never designed for access, really. Paul Marden: No, not hugely. Susanne Reid: Not at all. So that's part of our programming and our thinking and our commitment to the city and to those that come to it from our local communities. But also from further afield, that they can come and enjoy the splendour of this sacred space.Paul Marden: I've been thinking long and hard, and been interviewing people, especially people like We The Curious, where they're coming into their 25th anniversary. They were a Millennium Project. I hadn't even thought about interviewing an attraction that was a thousand years old. A genuine millennium project.Susanne Reid: Yeah, so we're working towards that, Paul. And, you know, obviously there's a committee in-house thinking of how we might celebrate that. One of the things that, you know, I know others may have seen elsewhere, but... We've commissioned a Lego builder to build a Lego model of the cathedral. There will obviously be some beautiful music commissioned to surround the celebration of a thousand years of Christchurch at the heart of the city. There'll be a conference. We're also commissioning a new audio tour called the ACE Tour, Adults, Children and Everyone, which will read the cathedral for people who have no sense of what they're looking at when they maybe see a baptismal font, for example. You know, we're really excited about this and we're hoping the city will be celebratory mood with us in 2028.Paul Marden: Well, maybe you can bring me back and I'll come and do an episode and focus on your thousand year anniversary.Susanne Reid: You'd be so welcome.Paul Marden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Suzanne.Paul Marden: I am back on the floor. We have wrapped up day one. And I am here with Ray Dempsey from Jameson Distillery. Ray, what's it been like today?Ray  Dempsey: Paul, it's been a great day. I have to say, I always loved the AVEA conference. It brings in such great insights into our industry and into our sector. And it's hosted here in Waterford, a city that I'm a native of. And, you know, seeing it through the eyes of a tourist is just amazing, actually, because normally I fly through here. And I don't have the chance to kind of stop and think, but the overall development of Waterford and the presentation from the Waterford County Council was really, really good. It's fantastic. They have a plan. A plan that really is driving tourism. Waterford, as a tourist destination, whereas before, you passed through Waterford. It was Waterford Crystal's stop and that was it. But they have put so much into the restoration of buildings, the introduction of lovely artisan products, very complimentary to people coming to here, whether it is for a day, a weekend, or a week. Fantastic.Paul Marden: What is it? We're in the middle of October and it's a bit grey and drizzly out there. But let's be fair, the town has been packed. The town has been packed.With coaches outside, so my hotel this morning full of tourists.Ray  Dempsey: Amazing, yeah it's a great hub, a great hub, and they've done so much with the city to enable that, and you see, as you pass down the keys, you know that new bridge there to enable extra traffic coming straight into the heart of the city, it's fantastic. We're all learning from it, and hopefully, bring it all back to our own hometowns.Paul Marden: I think it's been really interesting. We were talking earlier on, before I got the microphone out, saying how it's been a real mixed bag this year across the island of Ireland, hasn't it? So some people really, really busy, some people rubbish year.Ray  Dempsey: Yeah, I mean, I feel privileged the fact that, you know, we haven't seen that in Dublin. So, you know, there's a it's been a very strong year, a little bit after a little bit of a bumpy start in January, February. But, like, for the rest of the year onwards, it's been fantastic. It's been back to back festivals and lots of things, lots of reasons why people come to Dublin. And, of course, with the introduction of the NFL. That's new to us this year. And hopefully, we'll see it for a number of years to come. But they're great builders for organic growth for our visitor numbers. So I'm happy to say that I'm seeing a growth in both revenue and in visitor numbers in the Jameson Distillery. So I'm happy to see that. Now, naturally, I'm going to have to work harder to make sure it happens next year and the year after. But I'm happy to say that the tourism product in Dublin has definitely improved. And Dublin-based visitor attractions are doing well. Paul Marden: Exciting plans for summer 26? Ray  Dempsey: Yes, every year is exciting, Paul. And every year brings a challenge and everything else. But I'm delighted to say that our focus for 2026 really is on building inclusion. So we're looking at language tours.Ray  Dempsey: We're looking at tours for... you know, margins in society. And I think it's a really interesting way for us to be able to embrace accessibility to our story. And also, we have increased our experience repertoire to engage more high-end experiences, not private experiences. More demand for those. Okay. So we're delighted to say that we have the product in order to be able to do that. So that's exciting for us, you know, to be building into 2026. Great. Paul Marden: Thank you so much for joining us. I am the only thing standing in the way of you and a drink at the cocktail reception later on. So I think we should call it quits. Ray  Dempsey: And for sure. Paul Marden: If you enjoyed today's episode, then please like and comment in your podcast app. It really does help others to find us. Today's episode was written by me, Paul Marden, with help from Emily Burrows from Plaster. It was edited by Steve Folland and produced by Wenalyn Dionaldo. See you next week. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

This week on Skip the Queue, we're stepping into the turret and turning up the tension, as we explore one of the UK's most talked-about immersive experiences.Our guest is Neil Connolly, Creative Director at The Everywhere Group, who have brought The Traitors Live Experience to life. With over 10 million viewers watching every betrayal, backstab and banishment on the BBC show, expectations for the live version were nothing short of murderous.So, how do you even begin to transform a TV juggernaut into a thrilling, guest-led experience? Let's find out who's playing the game… and who's about to be banished…Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references: The Traitors Live website: https://www.thetraitorslive.co.uk/Neil's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-connolly-499054110/Neil Connolly is a creative leader of design and production teams focused on development, production and installation of live theatre, entertainment, multi-media and attractions for the themed entertainment industry worldwide.Neil began his career as a performer, writer, producer & artist in Londons alternative theatre/art scene. It was during this time Neil developed a love and passion for story telling through the platform of interactive playable immersive theatre.Having been at the vanguard of playable & immersive theatre since 2007, Neil had a career defining opportunity in 2019 when he devised, wrote & directed an immersive experience as part of Sainsbury's 150th Birthday Celebrations. Making him the only immersive theatre & game maker in the world to have HRH Elizabeth Regina attend one of their experiences.In a distinguished career spanning 20 years, Neil has brought that passion to every facet of themed entertainment in the creative direction and production of attractions such as; Handels Messiah, Snowman & The Snowdog, Peppa Pig Surprise Party, Traitors Live, The Crystal Maze Live Experience, Tomb Raider Live Experience & Chaos Karts, an AR go-kart real life battle. Other clients and activations include: Harrods, Sainsbury's, Camelot/The National Lottery, Samsung, Blenheim Palace, Land Rover and Warner Brothers.Neil has worked across 4 continents for many years with private individuals; designing, producing and delivering live entertainment on land, sea & air. A world without boundaries requires freethinking.Neil is currently working with Immersive Everywhere on creative development of show and attraction content for projects across U.K, Europe, North America & Asia. Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: This week on Skip the Queue, we're stepping into the turret and turning up the tension as we explore one of the UK's most talked about immersive experiences.Paul Marden: Our guest is Neil Connolly, Creative Director at The Everywhere Group, who've brought The Traitor's live experience to life. With over 10 million viewers watching every betrayal, backstab and banishment on the BBC show, expectations for the live version were nothing short of murderous. So how do you even begin to transform a TV juggernaut into a thrilling guest-led experience? Let's find out who's playing the game and who's about to be banished.Paul Marden: So, we're underground. Lots of groups running currently, aren't they? How did you make that happenNeil Connolly: Yeah, so now we're two floors under us. There's a lower basement and some other basement. So the building that we are in, there's a family in the 1890s who owned all of the land around Covent Garden and specifically the Adelphi Theatre.Paul Marden: Right.Neil Connolly: And they wanted their theatre to be the first theatre in the UK to have its lights powered by electricity. So they built their own private power station in this building. Like, literally like, all this, this is a power station. But unfortunately for these the Savoy had taken to that moniker, so they quickly built their important institution. The family had this building until the 1980s when the establishment was assumed through the important UK network.Neil Connolly: And then it was sat there empty, doing nothing for 40 years. And so the landlord that is now started redeveloping the building 10 years ago, added two floors onto the top of the building. So now what we're in is an eight-storey structure and we've basically got the bottom four floors. Two of which are ground and mezzanine, which is our hospitality area. And the lower two floors, which are all in the basement, are our experience floors. What we're looking at right now is, if you look off down this way to the right, not you people on audio, but me here.Neil Connolly: Off this side is five of the round table rooms. There's another one behind me and there's two more upstairs. And then I've got some Tretters Towers off to the left and I've got my show control system down there.Neil Connolly: On the floor above me, we've got the lounges. So each lounge is connected to one of the round table rooms. Because when you get murdered or banished, one of the biggest challenges that I faced was what happens to people when they get murdered or banished? Because you get kicked out of the game. It's not a lot of fun, is it? Therefore, for me, you also get kicked out of the round table room. So this is a huge challenge I face. But I built these lounge concepts where you go— it's the lounge of the dead— and you can see and hear the round table room that you've just left. We'll go walk into the room in a while. There's lots of interactivity. But yeah, super fun. Neil Connolly: But unfortunately for these the Savoy had taken to that moniker, so they quickly built their important institution. The family had this establishment until the 1980s when the establishment was considered through the important UK network.Paul Marden: Yeah. So we've got 10 million people tuning in to Traitors per episode. So this must be a lot of pressure for you to get it right. Tell us about the experience and what challenges you faced along the way, from, you know, that initial text message through to the final creation that we're stood in now.Neil Connolly: So many challenges, but to quote Scroobius Pip on this, do you know Scroobius Pip? Paul Marden: No. Neil Connolly: Great, he's amazing. UK rapper from Essex.Neil Connolly: Some people see a mousetrap and think death. I see free cheese and a challenge.Neil Connolly: There's never any problems in my logic, in my thinking. There's always just challenges to overcome. So one of the biggest challenges was what happens to people when they get murdered or banished. The truth of the matter is I had to design a whole other show, which happens after this show. It is one big show. But you go to the Lounge of the Dead, there's more interactivity. And navigating that with the former controller, which is O3 Media and IDTV, who created the original format in the Netherlands, and basically designing a game that is in the world and follows the rules of their game with some reasonable adjustments, because TV and live are not the same thing.Neil Connolly: It takes 14 days to film 12 episodes of The Traitors. Paul Marden: Really? Okay. Neil Connolly: So I was like, how do I truncate 14 days of somebody's life down into a two-hour experience and still deliver that same impact, that same power, that same punch?Paul Marden: Yep.Neil Connolly: But I knew from the beginning of this that it wasn't about time. There is a magic triangle when it comes to the traitors, which is time, space, atmosphere. And time was the thing that I always struggled with. I don't have a Scottish cattle show, and I don't have two weeks. No. So I'm like, 'Cool, I've got to do it in two hours.' So our format follows exactly the same format. We do a breakfast scene, then a mission, then a roundtable banishment, then there's a conclave where the traitors meet and they murder somebody. And I do that in a seven-day structure, a seven-day cycle. But it all happens within two hours around this round table.Neil Connolly: I'm the creative director for Immersive Everywhere. We're a vertically integrated structure in the sense that we take on our own venues. So we're now standing in Shorts Gardens in the middle of Covent Garden. So we've leased this building. We've got a lease that is for a number of years and we have built the show into it. But we also identify the IP, go after that ourselves, we capitalise the projects ourselves. We seek strategic partners, promoters, other people to kind of come involved in that journey. But because we're also the team that are licensing the product, we are also the producers and I'm the creative director for that company. So I developed the creative in line with while also getting the deal done. This is incredibly unusual because other producers will be like, 'Hey, I've identified this IP and I've got it.' Now I'm going to approach a creative agency and I'm going to get them to develop the product. And now I've done all of that, I'm going to find someone else to operationally put it on, or I'm going to find a venue to put it on in, and then I'm going to find my ticketing partner.  But we don't do that. We have our own ticketing platform, and we have our own database, so we mark our own shoulders.Neil Connolly: As well as other experiences too. Back, we have our own creative industry, we are the producers, we are the female workers. So we cast it, we hire all the front of house team, we run the food and beverage, we run the bars. The operations team is our operations team because they run the venue as well as the show at the same time. So that's what I mean. We're a vertically integrated structure, which means we do it, which makes us a very unusual proposition within... certainly within the UK market, possibly the world. It makes us incredibly agile as a company and makes us to be able to be adaptive and proactive and reactive to the product, to the show, to the market that we're operating in, because it's all under one roof.Neil Connolly: This show started January 24th, 2023. Right. It's very specific because I was sitting on my sofa drinking a lovely glass of Merlot and I had just watched... UK Traitors, Season One. Yep. Because it came out that Christmas. Immediately I was like, 'Oh my God, this is insane.' And then I got a text message that particular night from our head of licensing, a guy named Tom Rowe, lovely man. And he was like, Neil, I'm at a licensing event with some friends of mine and everyone's talking about this thing called Traitors. I've not watched it. Have you watched it? Sounds like it might be a good thing. And so I sat back and drank my Merlot. And about five minutes later, I text him back and I was like, Tom, get us that license.Neil Connolly: And then I sent him a bunch of other details of how the show in my head would work, both from a commercial standpoint, but also from a creative standpoint, because I'm a commercially minded creative. Right. So I instantly took out my notebook and I started writing down exactly how I thought the show was going to do, the challenges that we would face and being able to translate this into a live thing. But I literally started writing it that night. And then he watched the first episode on the train on the way home. And then he texted me the next morning and he was like, 'I love it.' What do we need to do? And I was like, 'Get us in the room.' Two days later, we were in the room with all three media who own the format globally.Paul Marden: Okay.Neil Connolly: So we sat down and then they came to see one of our other shows and they were like, 'Okay, we get it now.' And then that was like two and a half years of just building the show, getting the deal done and facing the myriad of challenges. But yeah, sometimes it just starts with the text message.Paul Marden: So they get to experience all the key parts of the TV.Neil Connolly: All the key beats. Like right now, I'm holding one of the slates. They're not chalkboard slates. Again, this is... Oh, actually, this is a good challenge. So in the TV show, they've got a piece of slate and they write on it with a chalkboard pen. This seems so innocuous and I can't believe I'm talking about this on a podcast.Neil Connolly: Slategate was like six months of my life. Not in its entirety, but it was a six month long conversation about how we do the slates correctly. Because we do... 48 shows a day, six days a week. And those slates will crack. They will bash. And they're kind of a bit health and safety standards. I was like, can't have them. Also, they write on them with chalk pens, white ink chalk pens. But in the TV show, you only do it once a night. Yeah.Paul Marden: And then you have a producer and a runner.Neil Connolly: They just clean them very, very leisurely and set them back for the next day. And I was like, no, I've got to do a whole bunch of roundtable banishments in two hours. So we talked a lot about material, about style, literal viewership, because if you take a seat at the table. Yeah. If you're sitting at the table here, you'll notice that we've got a raised bit in the middle. If I turn mine around, the other person on the other side can't see it. So I was like, 'Okay, cool.' So we had to do a whole bunch of choreography. But also, the room's quite dark. Yes. At times, atmospheric. Yeah. In that magic triangle time-space atmosphere. So anything that was darker, or even that black slate, you just couldn't read it. And then there was, and then I had to— this is the level of detail that we have to go into when we're designing this kind of stuff. I was like, 'Yeah, but I can't clean off these slates with the white ink because everyone will have to have like a wet cloth chamois. Then I've just got loads of chamois around my venue that I just don't need.' And so then we're like, 'Oh, let's use real slates with real chalk.' And I was like, 'No, because dust will get everywhere.' I'll get chalk just all over my table. It'll just ruin everything. It'll ruin the technology that's inside the table because there's lots of hidden tricks inside of it. Paul Marden: Is there really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Neil Connolly: There's loads of hidden tricks inside the table. So after a while, going through many different permutations, I sat down with Christian Elenis, who's my set designer and my art director. And we were, the two of us were nearly in tears because we were like, 'We need,' and this only happened like.Neil Connolly: I would say two, three weeks before we opened. We still hadn't solved how to do the slate, which is a big thing in the show. Anybody who's seen the show and loves the show knows that they want to come in, they want to write somebody's name on the slate, and they want to spell the name incorrectly.Neil Connolly: Everyone does it on purpose. But I wanted to give people that opportunity. So then eventually we sat down and we were like, Christian, Neil. And the two of us in conversation went, why don't we just get a clear piece of Perspex, back it with a light coloured vinyl. And then Christian was like, 'Ooh,' and I'll make it nice and soft and put some felt on the back of it, which is what I'm holding. And then why don't we get a black pen? And we were like, 'Yeah,' like a whiteboard marker. And then we can just write on it. And then A, I can see it from the other side of the table. Thing one achieved. Two. Every marker pen's got an eraser on the top of it. I don't know why everyone thinks this is important, but it is. That you can just rub out like that, and I'm like, 'There's no dirt, there's no mess, and I can reuse this multiple times, like dozens of times in the same show.' And I know that sounds really weird, but that's the level of design I'm going to need.Paul Marden: I was just about to say, and that is just for the chalkboard. Yeah. Now you need to multiply that. How many decisions?Neil Connolly: How many decisions in each game. But also remember that there are eight round tables in this building. Each round table seats 14 people. And we do six sessions a day. So first ones at 10 a. m. Then we do 12, 2, 4, 6, and 8 p. m. So we do 48 shows a day, six days a week.Paul Marden: I love the concept that these are shows. This is not this is not visitor attraction. This is theater repeated multiple times a day for multi audience is concurrently.Neil Connolly: And I've just spent five minutes describing a slate to you. Yeah. But like, I haven't even got— it's like the sheer amount of technology that is in the show. And again, theatrical, like, look above our heads. Yeah. You've got this ring light above every seat. It's got a pin light. There's also microphones which are picking up all the audio in the room, which again is translating to the lounge of the dead. Every single one of the round table rooms has four CCTV cameras. Can you see that one in the corner? Each one of them is 4K resolution. It's quite high spec, which is aimed at the opposite side of the table to give you the resolution in the TV. In the other room. Then you've got these video contents. This is constantly displaying secret information through the course of the show to the traitors when they're in Conclave because everyone's in blindfolds and they took them off. They get secret instructions from that. There's also a live actor in the room. A live actor who is Claudia? They're not Claudia. They're not pastiches of Claudia. They are characters that we have created and they are the host of The Traitor's Game. Right. They only exist inside this building. We never have them portrayed outside of this building in any way whatsoever.Neil Connolly: They are characters, but they live, they breathe— the game of Traitors, the world of Traitors, and the building that we have designed and constructed here. And they facilitate the game for the people. And they facilitate the game for the people. One actor to 14 people. There are no plants, even though everyone tries to tell me. Members of the public will be convinced that they are the only person that's in that show and that everyone else is a plant. And I'm like, no, because that would be insane.Neil Connolly: The only actor in the room is the host.Paul Marden: 14 people that can sit around this table. How many of them are in the same group? Are you with your friends or is it put together where there are other people that you won't know in the room? If you book together, you play together.Neil Connolly: Yes. Okay, so if you don't book 14 people... Ah, we also capped the number of tickets that you can purchase to eight. Right. So you can only purchase a maximum of eight tickets unless you do want a full table of 14, at which point you have to then purchase a VIP package because you are booking out a whole table for yourselves. The game doesn't work if there's less than 10 people at the table. So there has to be 10, 11, 12, 13 or 14 people sat at a round table for the show to actually happen, for it to work. By capping the number of tickets that you book for eight, then that guarantees that strangers will be playing together. And that is the basis of strangers. Yeah, yeah. Like, you need to be sat around a table with people you know, you don't know, that you trust and you don't trust. Yeah. Fact of the matter. And do you see people turning on the others in their own group? Every single time. People think genuinely, and I love this from the public, you would think that if you're turning up as a group of eight and a group of four and a group of two, that the bigger group would just pick everybody off to make sure that someone in their group gets through to the end game.Neil Connolly: I'm sure they think that and they probably plot and plan that before they arrive on site. As soon as this game starts, gloves are off and everyone just starts going for each other. We've been open nearly two months now. I have seen, like, children murdered of their mothers.Neil Connolly: Husbands murder their wives, wives murder their husbands. I've seen, like, three generations—like, we get, because it's so intergenerational, like our lowest, the lowest age that you can play this is 12. Right. And then it's upwards. I've seen three generations of family come in and I've seen grandkids murder their own nan.Neil Connolly: Absolutely convinced that they're a traitor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. Or they banish them. Like, it's just mental. I've also seen nans, who are traitors, murder their grandkids.Neil Connolly: Like, and this is in a room full of strangers. They're just like, 'No, I'm not going to go for Barbara, who I met two hours ago in the bar. I'm going to go for my own grandson. It's mental.'Neil Connolly: The very, very first thing that I always think about whenever I'm creating an experience or whenever I'm designing a show is I put myself in the position of 'I'm a member of the public.' I have bought a ticketNeil Connolly: What's the coolest thing that I am going to do for my money? What is my perceived value of my ticket over actually what is the value of that ticket? I wanted to give people the experience of knowing what it was like to be sitting in one of these chairs at this table and feeling their heart. The pounding in their chest and I mean, the pounding in their chest, that rush of adrenaline from doing nothing— from sitting in a chair and all you were doing was sitting in a room talking to people and your heart is going.Neil Connolly: Because you're either being accused of being a liar. And trying to defend against it. And trying to defend against it. Or you actually are lying and you're trying to whittle your way out of it. And that feeling is the most alive that you will ever feel. Not ever. Like, I'm sure they're... No, no, no. But, like, give people that opportunity and that experience, as well as, like, access to the world of traitors and the law and everything else. But also, it's like any other theme park ride. People go on roller coasters because the imminent fear of death is always there. Yeah. And you feel alive. You're like, you've got such a buzz of adrenaline. Whereas, arguably, we do exactly the same thing as roller coasters, but in a much more longer-drawn format and multiple times. Yeah. And people do feel alive. When people walk out of the show, you see them go upstairs to the bar, and they are... Yeah.Paul Marden: You've said to me already that you don't use the word 'immersive,' but you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sat. The company is called 'immersive' everywhere. I'm sat behind the scenes. Okay. I'm sat in the room and the room is hugely convincing. It's like the highest fidelity escape room type experience that I've ever sat in. It feels like I'm on set, yeah, yeah. Um, I can totally believe that, in those two hours, you can slip. I sat on a game. It was only a two-minute game at iApple, but I was being filmed by one of the team. But within 30 seconds, I'd forgotten that they were there because I was completely immersed in the game. I can believe that, sitting in here right now, you could forget where you were and what you were doing, that you were completely submerged in the reality of the land that you're in.Neil Connolly: Yeah, 100%. Like, the world does not exist beyond these worlds. And for some people, like, I have my own definition. Everyone's got a different definition of what immersive is. I've got my own definition. But... I can tell you right now, as soon as people enter this building, they're in the bar, they're kind of slowly immersed in that world because the bar is a themed bar. It's done to the same, like we designed and built that bar as well. But as soon as they start descending that spiral staircase and coming into the gameplay floors, into the show floors, they just forget the rest of the world exists. And especially when they sit down at this table, it doesn't matter. I'm sat next to you here, but you could be sat at this table with your loved one, strangers, whatever. The gloves come off and just nothing exists apart from the game that you're about to go through.Paul Marden: You've been open now for a couple of months. More success than you were anticipating, I think. So pre-sales went through the roof? Yes. So you're very happy with the results?Neil Connolly: Yeah, yeah, we were. Yeah, well, we still are.Neil Connolly: We were very confident before we'd even started building the show, like the literal structural build, because we did very well. But then that set expectations quite high because I had a lot of people that had bought tickets and I was like, 'OK, I need to put on a good show for these people. And I need to make sure that they get satisfaction relative to the tickets that they bought.' But I don't feel pressure. I do feel anxiety quite a lot. Creatively? Yeah. I mean, I meditate every day.Paul Marden: But you've created this amazing world and you're inviting people into it. And as a creative, you're opening yourself up, aren't you? People are walking into the world that you've created.Neil Connolly: Yeah, this was said to me. This is not something that I came up with myself, and I do say this really humbly, but it was something that was said to me. It was on opening day, and a bunch of my friends came to playtest the show. And they were like, 'Oh, this is your brain in a building.'Neil Connolly: And I was like, 'Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.' But yeah, it is my brain in a building. But also that's terrifying, I think, for everybody else, because I know what happens inside my brain and it's really quite chaotic.Neil Connolly: But, you know, this I am. I'm so proud of this show. Like you could not believe how proud I am of this show. But also a huge part of my job is to find people that are smarter than me at the relative thing that they do, such as the rest of my creative team. They're all so much smarter than me. My job is vision and to be able to communicate that vision clearly and effectively so that they go, 'I understand.' The amount of times that people on the creative team turn around to me and go, 'Neil, that's a completely mental idea.' If people are saying to me, 'No one's ever done that before' or 'that's not the way things are done.'Neil Connolly: Or we can do that, but we're going to have to probably invent a whole new thing. If people are saying those things to me, I know I'm doing my job correctly. And I'm not doing that to challenge myself, but everything that I approach in terms of how I build shows is not about format. It's not about blueprints. It's not like, 'Hey, I've done this before, so I'm just going to do this again because I know that's a really neat trick.' I go back to, 'I made the show because I wanted people's heart to pound in their chest while they're sitting in a chair and make them feel alive.'Paul Marden: Is that the vision that you had in your head? So you're articulating that really, really clearly. Is that the vision that you sold to everybody on, not maybe day one, but within a couple of days of talking about this? No, it was day one.Neil Connolly: It was day one. Everyone went, that's a completely mental idea. But, you know, it's my job to try and communicate that as effectively and clearly as I can. But again, I am just one man. My job is vision. And, you know, there's lighting design, sound design, art direction, there's game logic. We haven't even gotten to the technology of how this show works yet, or how this room works.Neil Connolly: Actually, I'll wander down the corner. Yeah, let's do that. But, like, there's other, like, lots of hidden tricks. Like, this is one of the games, one of the missions. In the world and the lore of the show, the round table is sacrosanct.Paul Marden: Yes.Neil Connolly: Traitors is the game. The game is in other people. I can do so many missions and there's loads of missions and they're really fun in this show. But the game is in other people. It's in the people sat on the other side of the room. But also I wanted to do a thing where people could interact directly with the set. And so I designed one of the missions to be in the round table itself.Neil Connolly: So there's a course of these moon dials, which you basically have to align through the course of it. And there are sensors built into the table so that they know when they're in the correct position. How you find out the correct position is by solving a very, very simple puzzle and then communicating effectively to a bunch of strangers that you just met.Neil Connolly: And the sensors basically read it all. And when that all gets into position, the lights react, the sound reacts, the video content reacts, the whole room reacts to you. So I wanted to give people something tangible that they can touch and they make the room react to them. Yes, it's. I mean, I've designed, I've got background in escape rooms as well, right? Um, so I've done a lot of that kind of stuff as well. So I wanted people to feel in touch, same, but like, there's more tangible props over here. Um, yeah, that is a model box of the room that we are stood in, yeah. Also, there's an exact replica of it on the other side of it. There are very subtle differences between it, and that informs one of the missions. So that is two model boxes in this roundtable room. There's one of these in every single roundtable room. So there's 16 model boxes of the show that you're stood in on the set. And again, theatre. It's a show. But it's one of the missions, because I wanted people to kind of go, 'Oh, there's a live actor in front of me.' I'm having fun. Oh, look at all these lights and all the sound. Oh, there's a model box over here. That's in theatre land and blah, blah, blah. But that is also a really expensive joke. It's a really expensive joke. And there's other, like, lots of hidden tricks.Neil Connolly: Let's go look at backstage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.Neil Connolly: I say backstage, like how we refer to it or how I always go. I use 'I' and 'we' very interchangeably. Like right now you're on the set. Like you're on the stage. Yes. We're just wandering around a long corridor. There are round table rooms off to either side. But like, you know, there's a green room upstairs where the actors get changed, where the front of house team are, where the bar team all are. But as soon as they go out onto the show floor, they're on stage—yes, completely. We'll very quickly have a look at the gallery—yes, show control. Hi, Robbo. Do you mind if I stand in your room for the purposes of the audio? I'm talking to the technical manager, Thomas Robson. We're recording a podcast.Paul Marden: Robbo, oh yeah, okay. My mind is absolutely blown. So you've got every single room up on screen.Neil Connolly: Yeah, so that's great. There's 164 cameras—something like that. But every roundtable room has four cameras in it. Each camera is 4K resolution. So we've got cameras on all of them. We've got audio into those rooms. That's two-way, so that if show control needs to talk directly to them, they just press a button here and they can talk directly to the room itself. Mainly just like, stop misbehaving, we're watching you.Neil Connolly: We've then got cameras into all of the lounges, all of the show spaces, all the front of house, all of the bar areas, the mezzanine and back of house. And then you've got QLab running across all of the different shows. We've got backups on all of these screens. So if one... of the computers goes down, we can very quickly swap it in for a backup that's already running. We've got show control, which is, there's a company called Clockwork Dog, who, they're an amazing company. What COGS, their show control system, is doing is pulling in all of the QLab from sound, all of the QLab from lighting, and also we built our own app. to be able to run the show. So there's a whole logic and decision tree based on the decisions that the public do through the course of the game. So yes, there is a beginning, a middle, and an end in terms of our narrative beats and the narrative story of the show that we're telling people. But also that narrative can go in. Hundreds of different directions depending on the actions and the gameplay that the people do during the course of the show. So, you haven't just learned one show— you have to learn like You have to learn a world, and you have to learn a whole game.Neil Connolly: Like, there's the server, stacks, which we had to build. You had to network and cable the entire building. So we have built an entire new attraction, which didn't exist before. And also we're pulling in information from the front of house system which is also going into the show itself because again, you put your name into the iPad when you arrive on site and then you tick a box very crucially to say, 'Do you want to be selected as a trader? Yes or No.' Because in the game, it's a fundamental rule. If you say no, you cannot be selected as a traitor by the host during traitor selection. That doesn't mean you can't be recruited.Paul Marden: By the traitors later on in the game. So you could come and do this multiple times and not experience the same story because there were so many different pathways that you could go down.Neil Connolly: But also, the game is in other people. Yes. The show is sat on the opposite side of the table to you because, like, Bob and Sandra don't know each other. They'll never see each other ever again. But Bob comes again and he's now playing against Laura. Who's Laura? She's an unknown quantity. That's a whole new game. That's a whole new show. There's a whole new dynamic. That's a whole new storyline that you have to develop. And so the actors are doing an incredible job of managing all of that.Paul Marden: Thanks, Robbo. Thank you. So you've worked with some really, really impressive leading IP, Traders, Peppa Pig, Doctor Who, Great Gatsby. What challenges do you face taking things from screen to the live experience?Paul Marden: Challenges do I face? We're wandering here.Neil Connolly: So we are in... Oh, we're in the tower.Neil Connolly: Excellent. Yep, so we're now in Traitor's Tower. Good time for you to ask me the question, what challenges do I face? Things like this. We're now stood in Traitor's Tower. Paul, let me ask you the question. Without the show lights being on, so we're just stood on a set under workers, what's your opinion of the room that we're stood in?Paul Marden: Oh, it's hugely impressive. It feels like, apart from the fact you've punched the fourth wall out of the telly, it does feel like you're on set.Neil Connolly: It's a really faithful reproduction of the set. So that's kind of one of the challenges is managing the public's expectations of what they see, do and feel on site. So that I don't change the show so that people come and play the game that they're expecting to play. But making reasonable adjustments within that, because TV and live are two very, very different things. So first and foremost was making sure that we get the format right. So the game that people play, which informs the narrative of the show and the narrative structure of the show. Breakfast, mission, round table, conclave. Breakfast, mission, round table, conclave. I've designed a whole bunch of new missions that are in this, taken some inspiration from missions that people know and love from the TV shows, whether that's the UK territory or other territories around the world. And also just other stuff is just clear out of my head. So there's original content in there. paying homage and respect to the world that they've built and allowing ourselves to also play and develop and build out that world at the same time. Other challenges.Neil Connolly: This is not a cheap project. No, no. I mean, the production quality of this is beautiful. Yeah, yeah, thank you. It is stunning. When people walk in here, they're like, 'Oh my God, this is... High end.' I am in a luxury event at a very affordable price.Paul Marden: Thank you. And then we're going back upstairs again. Yes. And in the stairwell, we've got the crossed out photos of all of those that have fallen before us.Neil Connolly: No, not quite. All of the people that are in this corridor, there's about 100 photos. These are all the people who built the show.Neil Connolly: So this is David Gregory. He's the sound designer. This is Kitty, who is Immersive Everywhere's office manager. She also works in ticketing. That is Tallulah and Alba, who work in the art department. Elliot, who's our lighting designer. So all of these people are the people who brought the show to life.Paul Marden: Amazing.Neil Connolly: And we wanted to pay homage to them because some of them gave years of their lives to building the show from literally the inception that I had in 2023. Through to now and others are the people who literally spent months of their life underground in these basements building hand-building this set and so we wanted to pay homage to them so we got all of their photos we did the iconic red cross through it yeah and we stuck them all up in the corridor just because we thought it'd be a nice thing to do.Paul Marden: You're in the business of trading and experiences and that ranges from art exhibitions to touring shows. There's always going to be a challenge of balancing innovation and profitability. What is the formula? What is the magic formula?Neil Connolly: I believe, first and foremost, going back to what I was telling you earlier about us being a collaborative organisation. We are not a creative crack that has been used for the show. We are also the producers of the show. And to make my point again, I'm a commercially minded creative. So I actually sit down with the producers and go, 'Okay, cool.' There are 112 seats in the show.Paul Marden: Yep.Neil Connolly: Therefore, how many shows do we need to do per day? How many shows do we need to do per week? How many shows do we need to do per year? Therefore, let's build out a P &L. And we build a whole business plan based around that.Paul Marden: By having everybody— that you need in the team— makes it much easier to talk about that sort of stuff. It makes it much easier for you to design things with the end result in mind. You don't have a creative in a creative agency going off— feeding their creative wants without really thinking about the practicalities of delivering on it.Neil Connolly: Exactly. So you've got to think like, literally, from the very, very beginning: you've got to think about guest flow. You've got to think about throughput. You've got to think about your capacities. Then you've got to basically build out a budget that you think— how much, hey, how much really is this going to cost? Yeah. Then you build out an entire business plan and then you go and start raising the money to try and put that on. And then you find a venue. I mean, like the other magic triangle, like the traitor's magic triangle is, you know, time, space, atmosphere. That's how you do a show. Like with my producer's hat on, the other magic triangle is show, money, venue.Neil Connolly: The truth of the matter, like I make no bones about it, I can design shows till the cows come home, but I'm always going to need money to put them on and a venue to put them in. Also, I want to stress this really important. I use the words 'I' and 'we' very interchangeably.Paul Marden: It's a team effort.Neil Connolly: You can see that in that corridor. I am not a one-man band. I am the creative director of a company. I am a cog that is in that machine, and everybody is doing... We are, as a team... I cannot stress this enough. Some of the best in the business are doing what we do. And everyone is so wildly talented. And that's just us on the producing side. That's immersive everywhere, limited. Then I've got a whole other creative team. Then we've got operations. Then we've got... It's just mad. It's just mad, isn't it? This is a job. Who would have thought, when you were at school, this was an opportunity? Not my principal or my maths teacher.Neil Connolly: So, sorry, just to balance the kind of economies of scale. That was the question, wasn't it?Paul Marden: Well, we were talking about what is the formula for making that an investment, but you know, the authority here is the effort you've put in to do this feels high, but at the same time, you have to find this thing. There is a lot of investment that goes into the front.Neil Connolly: But that comes back to creatives. Caring and I'm not saying the creatives don't, but I care. I care about building businesses. Yeah, not necessarily like building my own CV, like there's so many projects that across our desks. I'll be like, 'Yeah, that'd be really fun to work on.' But do I think that I can make that a touring product? Can it be a long-running location-based entertainment sit-down product? Can it be an art shop? Like you've kind of got a balance with what do you think is just creatively cool versus what can we do as a company that is a commercially viable and financially stable product? And so all that comes through in terms of the creative, but also in terms of the activities of how we run the building, how this model realizes. Because if you think about it, let's make Phantom of the Opera run in the West End. Yes. The show is very obvious, with many casts on a room, away, fruit team away, terrace, it's a big activity. If they haven't sold half that away, they have to use the whole show and play all those people.Neil Connolly: But if they haven't sold half that away from one of my shows... I only have to activate four of my rooms, not eight of them. Therefore, I don't have to call in four actors. I don't have to call in a bunch of the other front of house team and I can scale in the operations on the back. It's an entirely scalable process. Flexible, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%. But also, like, we've got eight rooms here. If we decide to take this to another territory, and that territory demands a much higher throughput, then instead of eight rooms, I can do 20 rooms, 30 rooms. As long as we know that the market is there to be able to kind of get people through it.Neil Connolly: I love this show and I'm so proud of it. The main reason why I'm proud of it is when the show finishes, let's go into one of the lounges. Have you been into one of the lounges?Paul Marden: I've had a nose around a lounge.Neil Connolly: There are different shapes and sizes. We won't go into that one. We'll go into this one down here. That one, that one. It's always such a buzz when you're stood in the bar and the shows kick out, and you see tables and tables of 14 people going up into the bar.Neil Connolly: Area and before they've even gotten a drink, they will run straight over to their friends, families, strangers, whoever they were playing with in that table of 14, and instantly be like, 'Right, I need to know everything that was going on inside your head, your heart, and your soul over the last two hours of my life because this was my experience.'Neil Connolly: And they'll just go, and they'll be like, 'And this is what I was thinking.' And then I thought it was you because you did this and you touched your nose in a weird way. And then I thought you were sending secret signals. And then everyone's like, 'No, that's not what I was doing.' I was just trying to be a normal person. And they were like, 'Well, why did you say that thing?' It sounded super weird. And they're like, 'That's just what I do.' And it's just totally mental. And then they all get a drink from the bar. And we call it the bar tab chat.Neil Connolly: It's another revenue stream.Neil Connolly: I do talk about this like it's a show. And it is a show. You've walked around, do you think it's a show? Completely. I talk to established houses all the time. Like, you know, the big theatres of the land. Organisations that are national portfolio organisations who receive a lot of Arts Council funding. The thing that they want to talk to us about all the time is new audiences. They're like, 'How do I get new audiences through my door?' What can I do? And I'm like, 'Well, firstly, make a show that people want to go and see.'Neil Connolly: Again, they're like, 'But I've got this amazing writer and he's a really big name and everyone's going to come because it's that name.' And I'm like, 'Yeah, that's wicked. That's cool.' And they can all go pay reverence to that person. That's really wonderful. Whereas when you look at the attractions landscape or the immersive theatre landscape or like anything like... Squid Game, or The Elvis, Evolution, or War of the Worlds, which has also laid reality, or any of that kind of stuff, across the landscape, it is nothing but new audiences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is nothing but actual ticket-buying audiences.Neil Connolly: And they come from all different walks of life. And what I love is that they do come in to this experience and we hit them with this like secret theatre.Neil Connolly: And they're like, 'Oh my God.' And often it's a gateway to them being like, 'Oh, I didn't realise that.' Maybe I'll go see a Western show or maybe I will go to the National Theatre and see something. Because that's the level of archery. Because those organisations, I love them and I've worked in a few of them, but those buildings can be quite austere, even though they're open and porous, but it's still very difficult to walk through that threshold and feel a part of it.Paul Marden: Whereas coming in here, coming into an event like this, can feel like a thing that they do.Neil Connolly: Because it's the same demographic as theme park junkies. People who love going to theme parks love going to stuff like this because it's an experience, it's an otherness, it's an other nature kind of thing. Because modern audiences want to play and do, not sit and watch. But we all exist in the kind of same ecosystem. I'm not taking on the National Theatre.Paul Marden: Gosh, no. I always talk about that. I think the reason why so many attractions work together in the collaborative way that they do is they recognise that they're not competing with each other. They're competing with sitting on your backside and watching Netflix.Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah.Paul Marden: Our job for all of us is to drag people away from their screens and drag people off of their sofas to do something. And then that's the biggest challenge that we all face.Neil Connolly: I think then that kind of answers the question that you asked me earlier, which I didn't answer. And I'm very sorry.Neil Connolly: is about identifying different pieces of IP. Like, yes, we largely exist in the world of licensing IP. And how do we identify that kind of IP to be able to translate? Not just how do we do it, but like, actually, how do we identify the right thing that's going to... How do you spot the winner? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that is one of the biggest challenges to your point of we're talking directly to people who consume arts, culture and media and technology in a slightly more passive way, whether that's just at home and watching Netflix and then bringing that to life. In a very, very different way. If you have a very clear marketing campaign that tells people what it is that they're buying and what they're expected to see or do on their particular night out, because that's what modern people really care about, what they do with their money. Yeah. And they want to have a good night out. And I'm in the business of giving people a good night out. We also happen to be murdering a lot of people in the course of the show.Neil Connolly: Still a good night out. Still a good night out. But I'm in a place where the dead sit. Yeah, exactly. Lounge of the dead. And like, you know, this is a really cool space. Oh, it's just beautiful. You know, we've got the telephone really works. There's lots of information that comes through that. The radio works, that does different things. The TV screen on the wall, that has the actual live feed into the round table room that you've just left. And there's other little puzzles and hints and tricks in this room, which means that after you've been murdered or banished and you come to the Lounge of the Dead, you're still engaged with the game to a degree. You just don't directly influence the outcome of the game. But you're still involved in it. You're still involved in it. It's super fun. Oh, and you can have a drink in here.Paul Marden: I don't let people drink in the round table. Even more important. What's this?Neil Connolly: The dolls, the creepy dolls. What this is, this is the void. Creatively speaking, this is where all the gold goes when people win or lose it. And the creepy dolls are from the TV show. Ydyn nhw'r un gwirioneddol o'r sioe? Felly, gafodd studio Lambert, sy'n gwneud y sioe tebyg, llawer o brops o'r sioe tebyg i ni eu rhoi ar y ddispleiddio yma. Felly, mae gennych chi'r Dolls Creepy o'r lles 3 yno. Rydyn ni'n mynd i fyny. Yn ôl yma, mae'r peintiwch Deathmatch.Paul Marden: Which is from season three.Neil Connolly: And they get the quill and they write the names and got the quill upstairs. We've also got over here, the cards that they used to play the death match with. Excellent.Paul Marden: So you began your career in theatre. How did that evolve into the world of immersive live experiences?Neil Connolly: Life story. I am the son of a postman and a cook. And if you haven't noticed already, I'm from Ireland. There was no theatre in our lives, my life, when I was growing up. And I stumbled into a youth theatre. It's called Kildare Youth Theatre. And the reason why I joined that is because there was a girl that I really fancied.Neil Connolly: She had just joined this youth theatre and I was like, 'Oh, I'm gonna join that as well' and that kind of opened the world of theatre for me. At the same time, I then got spotted by this guy, his name's Vijay Baton, his real name's Om, but he converted to Hare Krishnanism in the 90s. And he set up a street theatre company in Ireland. He just taught me street theatre. So he taught me stilt walk, he taught me juggling, he taught me how to build puppets. And so I spent years building puppets with him and going around Ireland doing lots of different street theatre while I was a teenager. And doing street theatre and doing my youth theatre and then kind of all of that kind of came to a head when I had to decide what I was going to do with my life. I applied to go to drama school. And I applied to two drama schools. One was Radha. Didn't get in. Didn't even get an audition. And the other one was Rose Bruford. And they took me. And the reason why they took me— I probably wasn't even that good. But on the day that I was auditioning to get into Rose Bruford was the same day as my maths exam for my final exams at school. You call them your A-levels, we call them the leaving certificate.Neil Connolly: And while all of my friends were back in Ireland doing their maths exam, I was in an audition room pretending to be a tree or the colour black.Neil Connolly: Who knows? And they kind of went, 'Well, if I fail my maths exam, I don't get into university in Ireland.' Like, it's just a blanket thing. And so I was like, 'I literally sat across the panel' and I was like, 'eggs, basket.' And they were like, 'cool.' So they let me in based off of that. So I got a classical training. Then what happened is I came out of university. I was living with two of my friends, Natalie and Joe. And we had our own little production company called The Lab Collective. And we just started making shows. In weird ways, we joined a company called Theatre Delicatessen. Let's get away from this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Neil Connolly: So Theatre Deli was a company set up to take over disused spaces in London and convert them into art spaces.Neil Connolly: Basically legalised squatting. It's the same as like a guardianship. But we weren't living in the buildings. We were just putting on shows and we put on art shows, we put on theatre shows. We did Shakespeare for a while. We wrote our own work and we just did lots of really, really cool stuff. And I worked in music festivals, classically trained actor. So I was trying to do shows. I did a lot of devising. I also joined an improvisation group. And kind of through all that mix, like those years at Delhi, which was making these weird shows in these weird buildings, were very, very formative years for us. The Arts Council wouldn't support the kind of work that we were making. We were like, 'Cool, how do we get space?Neil Connolly: How do we get or make money to support ourselves? And what are the shows? There's the magic triangle all over again. Space, show, money. And that's your apprenticeship, I guess, that brings you to here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, again, I make no bones about it. 10 years ago, I was selling programs on the door of the Royal Festival Hall while doing all of that stuff. So in one of the Theatre Daily buildings, we did a show called Heist, which is you break into a building and steal stuff. That's what the public do.Neil Connolly: And a bunch of us did that. I mean, it's so much fun— kind of doing it. And off the back of that, somebody else basically tried to chase down the crystal maze. And then they went away, and then they called me up and they were like, 'Hey, I've got the rights. Do you want to make the crystal maze?' And I was like, 'Yeah, sounds like fun.' So I got involved with that, did that for a while. And then, from there, this is the end of a very long story. I'm so apologised. Yeah, from there, all of those different things that I've done through the course of my life in terms of operations, designing experiences, being a creative, understanding business.Neil Connolly: Building a P&L, building a budget, talking to investors, trying to convince them to give you money. All of that stuff kind of basically came together. And over the last few years, like the wildest ride is that pre-2020.Neil Connolly: We were just a bunch of people doing a bunch of weird things, making weird shows and weird attractions in kind of different ways. And then that year happened. And I don't know what happened, but literally every single major studio, film, TV production, game designer, licensor in the world, suddenly just went— brand extensions, world extensions, and they all just started calling us. And they were like, 'Hi, I've got this thing.' Can you develop it into a thing? Because I need to extend my brand or I want to build a world and extend that for the public. And we were like, 'Yeah, okay, cool.' And we were just lucky, serendipitously, to be in the right place at the right time. To be those people that people can approach. And we're always, we're very approachable.Neil Connolly: As you can tell, I talk a lot. And, you know, so the last five years, it's just been a mad ride.Paul Marden: So look, Neil, it's been amazing. I have had the most fun. Last question for you. What's next? Are you putting your feet up now because you finished this? Or on to the next? Neil Connolly: Very much on to the next thing. So we're already in production with our new show, which is called Peppa Pig Surprise Party. And that is opening at the Metro Centre in Gateshead next year. Oh, how exciting is that? It's very exciting.Paul Marden: So quite a different demographic.Neil Connolly: The demographic for Peppa Pig is two to five year olds. It's been a really fun show to design and create. To go back to a question that you asked me very early on, there is no blueprint, there is no format. I have embraced the chaos tattooed on my arm. And always when I approach things, any new show or any new creative, I am thinking of it from a ticket buying perspective: 'I have paid my money.' What is the coolest thing that I can possibly do with that money? And so therefore, I'm now looking at families and, like, what's the coolest thing that they can do for that ticket price in the world of Peppa Pig?Paul Marden: Let's come back in the new year, once you've opened Peppa Pig, let's go to Gateshead and see that. That sounds pretty awesome to me. I reckon there's a whole new episode of Designing Worlds for two to five-year-olds that we could fill an hour on.Neil Connolly: Oh yeah, 100%. It's a totally different beast. And super fun to design.Paul Marden: Oh mate. Neil, it has been so wonderful having a wander around the inside of your crazy mind.Paul Marden: If you've enjoyed today's episode, please like it and leave a comment in your podcast app. It really does make it so much easier for other people to find us. This episode was written by Emily Burrows from Plaster, edited by Steve Folland, and produced by Sami Entwistle from Plaster and Wenalyn Dionaldo. Thanks very much. See you next week.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode, we chat with Choni Fernández, Chief Sustainability Officer and Customer at PortAventura World, the first carbon-neutral theme park in the world, and now proudly B Corp certified.Choni isn't just ticking ESG boxes, she's leading a cultural shift in how attractions operate. From zero-emissions hotels to renewable energy and deep supply chain work, PortAventura is setting the global standard.In this episode, we dive into the real work behind the headlines. How do you build a sustainability culture that actually sticks? Can you lead without a big green team? And what does digital sustainability really mean?If you're serious about sustainability, or wondering where to start, this is the conversation you need to hear.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  PortAventura World website: https://www.portaventuraworld.com/nosotros/trabaja-con-nosotrosChoni Fernández on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/choni-fern%C3%A1ndez-veciana/Choni Fernández is Customer, Sustainability and Communications Director at PortAventura World. With a background in Economics and over a decade at BASF, she joined PortAventura in 2007, where she has led Procurement, Logistics, and Sustainability. She spearheaded the company's sustainability strategy, achieving the milestone of B Corp Certification, and now leads the newly created Customer Department to drive a more customer-centric approach. Choni also serves as Catalonia Delegate at DIRSE and is Chair of the IAAPA EMEA Sustainability Committee. Plus, live from the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Jakob Wahl, President & CEO of IAAPAhttps://iaapa.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jakob-wahl/Elliot Hall from Expression Capital Partners LLPhttps://expressioncapitalpartners.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliot-h-1b804a6a/Matt Barton, CEO / Co-Founder CurtainUp Ltd. & President of Themed Entertainment Association TEA https://www.curtainup.livehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-barton-99a8039/Melissa Oviedo, Chief Executive Officer, Themed Entertainment Association TEA https://www.teaconnect.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-oviedo-ruminot-90a63228/Kevin Murphy, Senior VP, Kraftwerk Living Technologieshttp://www.kraftwerk.athttps://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-murphy-854439/Jacob Thompson, CX Director, Attractions.io https://attractions.iohttps://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-thompson-icap-151271149/ Transcriptions:  Welcome, skip the queue, to Barcelona.Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and along with my co-host, Andy Povey, and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're bringing you the latest news from IAAPA Expo Europe in Barcelona.Paul Marden: You join me today tired and just a little bit emotional at the airport after an amazing week at the show.Paul Marden: In this episode, we wrap up our time at IAAPA Expo Europe with a final look back at the show floor buzz. I catch up with Jakob Wahl, Chief Executive Officer of IAAPA, to get his reflections on an unforgettable week, from standout innovations to what's next for the global attractions industry. But first, Andy sits down with Choni Fernandez, Chief Sustainability Officer at PortAventura World, to explore what it really takes to become the first carbon neutral theme park on the planet and why sustainability must be at the heart of guest experience going forward.Andy Povey: So hello, everybody. I'm joined today by Choni Fernandez from PortAventura World. Choni is responsible for sustainability and guest experience and a number of other things, I believe, Choni. Hello and welcome to Skip the Queue. Hello. Choni Fernandez: Thank you very much for your invitation. Andy Povey: So, Choni, you guys at PortAventura World are really leading the industry and probably more than just our industry. In terms of sustainability, you were the first carbon neutral theme park in the world and in '24, the first theme park company to achieve a BCorp certification. Am I right?Choni Fernandez: Yes, you're right. It was, in fact, we are VCOPS since 2022. And yes, we were operational carbon neutral because we reduced our emissions during several years. And after that, we acquired some carbon credits to compensate the result of the balancing emissions. For scope one and two. Yes. So since then we are operational carbon neutral. That is not really an official name, but it's easy to explain what we are doing. Andy Povey: Okay. So what is the official name?Choni Fernandez: The official name, in fact, now that's interesting because it's a big discussion in the European community. We chat the terms we can use or not. In the new CCRG, that is going to change. Some words like green, sustainable, are probably forbidden, words that cannot be used any longer. And you need to speak properly about the impact of your activity without using these words that can lead to a type of greenwashing. And you need to be more clear about when you say, for instance, 'carbon neutral,' you need to say, 'we have reduced emissions, we compensate.' More explanation than just using one word that can be easily misunderstood.Andy Povey: Okay, yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Just buying carbon credits. You're actually doing something positive. Taking action. Like, is it Europe's largest solar farm?Choni Fernandez: It's the largest solar farm. That was one of the biggest at the source of Europe. And for sure, I guess, is still the biggest in Spain.Andy Povey: The biggest solar farm in Spain.Choni Fernandez: Sorry, in a holiday resort, yes. There are other very big solar plants that they produce energy for third parties, but they are not linked to a tourist industry.Andy Povey: No, that makes absolute sense. So you're generating your own power.Choni Fernandez: We generate 30%. The plant is not big enough and we have some restrictions of the government. So we cannot sell the surplus of energy we produce. So we could only make the plan as big as the low on consumption we have in a period of a year.Andy Povey: That makes absolute sense.Choni Fernandez: So that means that there are several months where we produce 100% energy we need. But then, obviously, in the peak of the season, we need extra energy. We buy from the net, but we always buy green energy from the net, too. Then 100% of the energy we consume is green energy, not coming from non-renewable.Andy Povey: It all becomes much more complicated as you dive into the detail, doesn't it?Choni Fernandez: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is much more complicated. And in Europe, yes, I would say even one step more complicated than the rest of the world because of all the regulations.Andy Povey: So what was it that inspired PortAventura World and how did you persuade PortAventura World to take sustainability so seriously?Choni Fernandez Okay, the history starts really with, I would say, a huge pain point, even when they were designing the park. And it was related to water. We are established in an area where we suffer from water scarcity many periods. So for those designers, they already designed the park with sustainability in mind. So they have created a complex system to recover all water rains in a big tank that is our Mediterranean lake.Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Choni Fernandez: So water was a treasure since the beginning. And they have also in a private-public investment. Take all the gray waters from the park, sending it to a water treatment plant several kilometres far away from the resort, and making the pipe bring the recycled water back to the resort for gardening. So PortAventura was using recycled water since 30 years ago. And that was really the starting point of sustainability at PortAventura. So we start with all the environmental impacts that the activity was going to have. And they created the park open doors in 1995. So in 1997, just two years after that, they have created the Green Team.Choni Fernandez: It's a team from different members of different departments who takes care of the environmental impacts and how they can reduce the use of water, energy and so on. And this team is still working nowadays and takes care of more complex things, certifications, but with the same, I would say, purpose, you know, that is to reduce the environmental impact of the resort, and now we start to regenerate different areas. So it's not producing impact, it's creating positive impact through regeneration.Choni Fernandez: And that was a starting point. But I like to repeat that sustainability has not fixed rules. So that is the story of Pota Aventura, because we are what we are. We are located where we are. But for instance, in the Global Sustainability Committee of IAAPA, SCARBRED was a member of that. And SCARBRED, the sustainability, had not begun for the water scarcity. They don't have this problem.Choni Fernandez: So sustainability there was more linked to the social sustainability, how to integrate communities in the project. So it really depends, again, in that moment, the momentum, you know, that we call. Where you are, who you are, what is your future footprint of your activity in your community and in the environment.Choni Fernandez: So we start with that. And year after year, we consolidate this beginning. So any new activity of PortAventura, it doesn't matter— new hotel, new park, convention centre has always followed the same philosophy that we started in 1997.Andy Povey: Very good.Choni Fernandez: Yes, because I think that this makes the project really coherent, consistent, and resilient. So it's something that we have not done from day to night, you know. It's something that we have. It's like a dish you have cooked in a low, low temperature, you know. Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slow cooker. Choni Fernandez: Slow cook. That is. Sustainable PortAventura is slow cook. But at the end, you know, the dish is very good cooked and it's good.Andy Povey: Absolutely. And then, as the person responsible for customer experience within PortAventura World, before talking to you, I wouldn't necessarily have put... sustainability and customer experience together in the same group.Choni Fernandez: You're right because, okay, that is something that has changed also through years, you know, so sustainability was linked and happened at PortAventura. It was totally linked to the environmental part. But that is only one third of what sustainability means. Sustainability is also the social impact and obviously the governance.Choni Fernandez: We call also ESG. Okay, it has some difference because it has more financial meaning. But what is clear when you talk, when we talk about sustainability, we talk about the environmental impacts and the social impacts. And the social impacts are the impacts that your activity, our activity has on people. And when we talk about people, we talk about employees, we talk about our community that's surrounding us, we talk about shareholders, we talk about suppliers, and we talk about guests or visitors. And the activity of any company should have a positive impact on these people that are affected by the activity, that they are also called stakeholders.Choni Fernandez: So, and here is the reason why we try to improve every year the guest experience in order to improve this positive impact. And at the end of the day, because we are not NGOs. We strongly believe that a positive impact on the guest experience is going to be translated in future revenues, more attendance for our parks, and makes our resort more resilient because it's more profitable in the long term.Andy Povey: So this really is a sort of a wheel or a cycle. Choni Fernandez: You are right. You are right. You are right. So we really differentiate at PortAventura. I mean, sustainability is also a new angle to see your business. There is the financial angle. And then there is the angle— how your activity affects the difference they hold up. But that is clear that both need to go together. I mean, business and sustainability. In fact... One of the reasons to become a BCorp company is to evolve our mission and vision with a purpose that integrates sustainability in the business model. So it is much easier for us to talk to employees, to talk to suppliers, to talk to guests. About what is the reason why it exists and why it's important to have sustainability included in order, again, to make our business resilient through the past of the years.Andy Povey: So we have a lot of listeners around the world. What would be your advice to someone running a venue that doesn't have the advantage of starting with sustainability right at the heart and from where they started their business? How do you make a start on this?Choni Fernandez: That is a very interesting question. And the first I think any company needs to do is really to understand the stakeholders they are affecting too. Because just with this complete transparent and dialogue with the different stakeholders, you really can understand what is the impact you are producing on them. And from this result, then you know where are your main pain points, where you need to focus first on. Obviously, there are some general rules. Your impact on the environment, as I told you before, normally a new venue has, for sure, clients, or at least customer guests, employees, probably shareholders, and then in another level, suppliers, community, etc.Choni Fernandez: So, and depends what is the situation, you need to start with that. You need to prepare a good analysis because, if not, what could happen? Imagine that you focus a lot on the environmental part and you start with that because you have seen that PortAventura has started with that.Choni Fernandez: But then that is not your problem because you are in an area where your resources are really well controlled or your resort has very good standards, very efficient, because it has done with high technology, but you have an employee problem.Choni Fernandez: You have problems perhaps to attract employees, to retain the talent, or really to make them happy working with you. Then you have to start the sustainability for not the most important topic in your company. So the most important is to understand what the stakeholders need from you and then to prepare. And it's also very interesting, I think, to start, you know, things small.Choni Fernandez: Making small projects that can be consolidated and embedded into the company. Because what is really important in a company is that each department, each area of the company, maintenance, procurement, human resources, marketing, and each of the departments really is doing the part of sustainability they need to, because it is impossible that one person on every team produces all the sustainability that the whole company needs to do.Choni Fernandez: So if sustainability is really not embedded in the activity of each Japan, it's really impossible to be a successful company in terms of sustainability. You know what I mean?Andy Povey: I know exactly what you mean. That rule is so true for so many things, isn't it? You could replace the word sustainability with guest experience or ride safety. Choni Fernandez: Yes, it's the same. Andy Povey: Any number of different things.Choni Fernandez: I always explain when people say, 'but you have done a lot, Choni.' I say, 'no, no, no, no, no.' Choni has not done a lot.Choni Fernandez: Many people are doing a lot, you know. And sustainability managers or directors normally are orchestra directors. But each one needs to play its own instrument so we have a nice music, you know. If not, it does not work at all, you know, like in orchestra. So we need the maintenance guy, really. or the energy manager to really take care of that. And human resources really to prepare inclusivity, et cetera, policies linked to employees. And marketing, doing really an ethic marketing to guests. So, and that is how everyone is really doing a part of the peak and sustainability of the company.Andy Povey: That sounds very familiar and I'm sure for our guests will ring true in many different areas. It's interesting you talk about really understanding where you are. What it is you're doing. We've done some work here in the UK on the sustainability of websites. So by not printing a park map, you obviously save resources, you save paper. But if you put that on a really inefficient webpage, then you're just consuming someone else's electricity. It doesn't make you any more sustainable.Choni Fernandez: And one thing I would like to tell you is that one of the big steps for us was when our investors make the management very clear that investors of the private funds that own PortAventura were asking for sustainable investments. So that was also a way, really, to receive more money from the investors to the owners. And that is very important because when the financial markets really recognise that sustainability is a plus for an investment, then, you know, things change. Things happen. And we had two moments in this company, in my opinion, for us, for sustainability managers, that make this big change in our mindset. Choni Fernandez: One is the world of our shareholders. And that was really a big, big step forward. Because we realised then, 'oh my God, we are sustainable. We can be sustainable. Our sustainability is a lever really to receive more funds to our business.'Choni Fernandez: And the second one was when we have two different businesses, really a B2C— final customer— and a B2E— travel agencies, companies who do their conventions in our convention, et cetera, et cetera. Once upon a time, a company came to PortAventura asking for a quotation for a big convention, European size, very big one.Choni Fernandez: And before receiving the quotation, they asked, 'Please, can you send us your sustainability report?' Because we would like to see if that's the venue where we want to go. Now, everything changed.Andy Povey: Absolutely.Choni Fernandez: Because at first time, sustainability was bringing business to the company. It was not a nice to have, something that we need to have. It was really part of the business. And that changed the history of the, I would say, the sustainability journey of this company when we have both shareholders' commitment and really request to continue on that. And on the other side, we were recognised for our sustainability activity in a business case.Andy Povey: It's very interesting when you get push or pull from both sides. Choni Fernandez: You're right. Then you realise that there is no other way to do that, you know, so you need pushing, pushing.Andy Povey: You're doing a lot of work about education, work, and working with schools, and having to engage them in your journey.Choni Fernandez: That's again the same case, you know. So in our guest segmentation, school groups are one of them. And it is a very important group for us and I guess for other operators too. As we receive many schoolers. But, you know, the teachers, not students, they thought that the trip to PortAventura was really 100% entertainment. And schools were looking for something more cultural, educational.Choni Fernandez: So then, at that moment, we prepare some workshops at the beginning of the day before the park opens. If the park opens at 10, we can deliver a sustainability workshop from 9 to 10. For instance, talking to kids about biodiversity, about waste management, how to produce green energy. So in the solar plant, we don't have only solar panels. We also have some instruments, some elements to explain children how to produce green energy with movement, with wind, with sun, with solar energy. And they can experiment with their hands. With this element, how to produce this green energy. And they understand very well because that is part of the curriculum that they have to study at school. But now they can put it in practice in a different way, in a way... that our industry delivers very well, that is entertainment, you know?Andy Povey: Yes, yeah, yeah.Choni Fernandez: And that is driving more schools to visit us. So again, there is another link with sustainability, more business, more attendance, more revenues.Andy Povey: We're back on the cycle.Choni Fernandez: Yeah, again, the cycle. We close the loop, you know.Andy Povey: Absolutely. Choni, is there something you'd like to leave as a sort of parting message or a final thought to everybody that's listening to the podcast? A single sentence about how they can emulate your success.Choni Fernandez: No, I think that, okay, sometimes in life, you know, for sustainability managers, I mean, and now in the world, perhaps you feel like Talmon, you know, coming up to the river.Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Choni Fernandez: In a difficult situation, but it doesn't matter. So the evidence is so strong that, if you really can close the loop, as we have been talking, if you can really demonstrate and we can close the gap. Between the sustainability impacts and the financial impacts, then sustainability is part of your business. I think that should be the goal— to really don't have sustainability as something nice to have additional to the business. Avoid that at all.Choni Fernandez: Sustainability is part of the business and makes the business more resilient and more profitable in the long term.Andy Povey: Lovely. That's a great message to leave us with. Paul Marden: Now let's hear some of the buzz from the show floor.Claire Furnival: So day three of IAAPA and I've just bumped into Matt Barton. Matt Barton: Hello. Claire Furnival: Matt, you wear many hats.Matt Barton: My day job is I'm the founder and CEO of Curtain Up. I'm also the owner of 7th Sense, a company that makes media servers and pixel management systems. But I'm also the president of the Themed Entertainment Association, better known as the TEA.Claire Furnival: Crumbs, the busy man. I hear you had a party last night. Matt Barton: We did. Yeah, we had a very successful mixer. We have a great relationship with IAAPA and we have a mixer at all of IAAPA's events around the globe. And we bring our members together, usually on the second or third night of the event.Claire Furnival: Anything announced last night at the party?Matt Barton: Yeah, so we announced our next SAIT conference, and SAIT stands for Storytelling, Architecture, Technology equals Experience. So it's a thought leadership conference where we talk about trends in the industry, best practices to follow, that kind of thing. We've just finished our SAIT Asia event just three weeks ago now, and that was in New Zealand this year. And we just last announced that we're going to be in Dubai next year. Again, building on that great relationship we have with IAAPA, we're actually doing it almost like a pre-conference event. So it's tied in with IAAPA Middle East, which is going to be in Abu Dhabi. We're going to be the week before. So people can then come to SAIT, enjoy SAIT with us, and then go straight down to Abu Dhabi for the IAAPA conference.Claire Furnival: What activities is it that the TEA do? What do you offer your members?Matt Barton: So a whole range of things. And what I'm going to do now is introduce our CEO, Melissa. Melissa Oviedo.Claire Furnival: Great to meet you, Melissa. So what is it that TEA offers its members?Melissa  Oviedo: We are really the connection community. The connection community for the design, the makers, the builders, the creators. Everybody who delivers world-class experiences around the world, that's really who we are and what we represent. That can be from theme parks to museums to cultural to location-based entertainment. Claire Furnival: So I understand that the TEA does an annual benchmark report. Melissa  Oviedo: Yeah, we've just rebranded this. This is the TEA Theme Experience Index. This is the 19th year that we're doing this benchmark study. Yeah, it's really exciting for us. And what this is, is this is the annual attendance report that tracks attendance data from around the globe for the top theme parks, water parks, and museums globally. It really looks at trends, so we can understand where are the guests going, where are they spending their time, how are the parks, especially as they're coming new on the market, how do they influence those trends? And we're actually going to be launching this on October 22nd.Claire Furnival: So a couple of questions spring to mind on that one. So first of all, can anybody access the report?Melissa  Oviedo: Yeah, sure can. It's a completely free resource. You can go online. If you're not a member, we just ask for you to fill out a quick form so we know who's downloading the report. And you will have full access to all of the data, and we will have actual books to hand out at IAAPA in Orlando in November.Claire Furnival: The sector's very, very, very lucky to have this piece of research. So can you give us any snippets as to what we might see in the report?Melissa  Oviedo: I think you'll see that the theme parks are really consistent. The big players are still the big players with Disney and Universal really driving the... main attendance data. And then China, with Chimalong Park, really still holding rank at number one water park in the world. We're seeing the attendance coming back in a fierce way in China.Melissa  Oviedo: Outlook is positive. Overall, though, you'll be able to find in the report a lot of the trends that we're seeing. A lot of what we're not only anticipating in 2025, but in the future as well, with all of the developments that are happening. So, really exciting, this year's report. Claire Furnival: And what about 2026? What does that bring the TEA? Melissa  Oviedo: Momentum is high, right? The community continues to look at how they diversify as an organisation or as a business. Theme parks is our core, but we're so much more than just that. So I think you're going to see. More people doing really cool and immersive things in new places. I think the definition of themed entertainment gets broadened and further defined. I think that you're going to see more activity and more collaboration because collaboration is really when the magic happens. And you're going to start to see that even more robustly in 2026 and beyond. Claire Furnival: Sounds exciting. So last thought from you, Matt.Matt Barton: Yeah, I just wanted to touch on a couple of things we've got left in 2025 before we look to 2026. So I mentioned SAIT earlier. We also have our SAIT conference in North America coming up. So that's in October. at Knott's Berry Farm, and that ties in with when we're launching the Global Experience Index. And then in November, we've got our mixer, our international mixer, combined with the IAAPA conference in Orlando. And so on the Tuesday night of IAAPA, we have our international mixer at the Isle of Berk attraction at Epic Universe. We've got the whole land, we've got dinner and drinks, and it's going to be a good one, so make sure you get your tickets in.Claire Furnival: One not to miss. Well, it's fabulous to catch up with both you, Matt, and you, Melissa. So thank you very much for your time.Matt Barton: Thank you.Melissa  Oviedo:  Thank you so much, Claire.Andy Povey: So we're on day three, and I'm sitting here with Elliot Hall, who's one of the founding partners behind Expression Capital Partners. Elliot, hello. Elliot Hall: Hi, Andy. Good to see you. Andy Povey: For our listeners at home, can you just tell me what Expression Capital Partners do and treat me like an idiot because I really don't understand the world of investment banking and all that kind of stuff.Elliot Hall: Okay, so Expression Capital Partners is the advisory firm to Entertainment Investments 1LP. Which is specialising in the entertainment industry. Andy Povey: Interesting. So I understand you're doing some work with Hasbro and in particular things like Monopoly.Elliot Hall: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. So we're looking to open monopoly-themed hotels and casinos around the world. Andy Povey: Wow. Elliot Hall: Along with many of the different types of brands, as we're rather across their 1000 plus brands. Andy Povey: I understand there's also some sporting connections. Tell us a little bit about, tell us what you can. Elliot Hall: Yeah, so what we can. We are working with some brands that have relationships and contracts for the IP for UEFA, FIFA and the FA. Yeah, so some really exciting products there and businesses. And we are in a position to be able to sign licenses and lease agreements and so on. And we're looking at bringing all of those brands together, either in the same cluster of IP attractions or within one building under one roof. Andy Povey: So, Elliot, you guys really are the people that are bringing the magic together. The IP, the operators, and then working out how someone funds it all.Elliot Hall: Yes, absolutely, yes. Andy Povey: Fantastic.Claire Furnival: So I'm here talking to Kevin Murphy from Kraftwerk Living Technologies. How are you finding the show this year and what do you see the trends for 2026 for you, Kraftwerk or also the industry?Kevin Murphy: I think in many respects, the trend at the moment is survival, which isn't being negative, but the world is a different place from how it was pre-COVID. The industry, though, is very, very alive. There's a lot happening out there. It's good to see the show for full. We actually tried to get a booth this year and couldn't. Everything had sold out. It's busy. People are wandering around with a very positive vein. But there's no doubt that there's— world tensions and there's problems with investment— and it does affect the industry and you know we're not immune from that. Kevin Murphy: But what's been good about this show is that a lot of the partners and Clients that we're working with are starting to announce their new projects. You have to bear in mind, for us, we do high technology behind the scenes in parks and museums and science centres. We can be working on them for many, many years. So we've had projects that have been brewing and they're just starting to get announced now. So what I'm seeing is, although there's concern about the industry, there is a slightly more positive vein coming through. I think the economy is improving out there, investors are starting to come out, and you can make money out of our industry.Claire Furnival: So what in particular have you got going on in 2026? Anything you can talk about and share with us?Kevin Murphy: Well, we're very, very pleased it's been announced, so I can talk about it. Plopsaland, which is a park in Belgium, are working with Mac. And I'm delighted to see that they've just announced, earlier than we expected, we're still working behind the scenes, but they've now announced their new flying theatre. Which will be ready and prepared at the end of 2026 for the 2027 opening.Claire Furnival: Congratulations, that's really, really exciting news.Kevin Murphy: Sadly, a lot of the other projects, I still can't say too, too much, because they may not have announced.Claire Furnival: Yeah, the dreaded NDAs.Claire Furnival: Just bumped into Jacob from Attractions. io. How's the show been for you?Jacob   Thompson: Great. This is my second time at IAAPA in Barcelona. It's been even better than the first time. So the weather's held out. Great conversations, great company. So overall, a success.Claire Furnival: And a little birdie has told me that you have a new feature coming out.Jacob   Thompson: That is true. So, yeah, we have launched a new product this month called GX Pulse. And the idea is it's enabling operators to make sense of all the noise of guest reviews and sentiment by breaking... reviews down from TripAdvisor, Google reviews, their own internal platforms to make sense and map that across a guest journey, specifically for attractions. So it's able to understand sentiment across things like queue management, your attractions, your food and beverage, give you scores and benchmark you against other venues. But most importantly, give you actionable insights to make improvements to the guest experience.Claire Furnival: Brilliant use of data there. Really, really, really good. So is this product now launched?Jacob  Thompson: Yes, yes it is. So we've been demoing it across some attractions at the trade show floor this week and it's had some really positive feedback. This product is completely separate from our core app platform and experience. So even if you don't have a mobile app and don't need a mobile app, this can be valuable for anybody that is looking to understand the sentiment and experience of their guests across their attractions.Claire Furnival: Fabulous. Guest will be seeing you in IAAPA Orlando.Jacob   Thompson: Yes, and I heard there's going to be a great party hosted by Skip the Queue.Claire Furnival: I'm not sure we'll be hosting a party, but we'll certainly be partying.Jacob   Thompson: Well, I'll be there to join you nonetheless.Paul Marden: So we're here for the final day of IAAPA Expo Europe. I've had a whale of a time and I'm sat here with Jakob Wahl, who amazingly, considering three days into this fantastic expo, is still looking fresh and bright. Jakob, please introduce yourself for our listeners who may not know you.Jakob  Wahl: I'm president and CEO of IAAPA, the Global Association for the Attractions Industry. I've done that now for two and a half years, but in total I've been with IAPA for, I think, nearly 15 years.Paul Marden: Wow, so man and boy almost.Jakob  Wahl: Yeah, you know, and I always say the kid in the candy store— I love doing what we do and bringing people together.Paul Marden: How could you not? So this is my first IAAPA. It has been fantastic and stood on the show floor. I think it was yesterday. I was on my own, done so many interviews. I've been bouncing around, but I just had a few minutes by myself and just stood in the middle of it all. Totally is like being a kid in a candy store, the Willy Wonka moment isn't it? Of what this place is like, because it is so fantastic.Jakob  Wahl:  It is and the most wonderful thing about it is, you know, we as an association, we create a framework, but it is actually all of you, our members, who fill it with life. Because everybody comes together. It's just a massive class reunion. People know each other. And the best thing about it is they're all willing to help and support each other. So obviously, the trade show floor is one component, but we have all those networking sessions, the education sessions, safety corners, we have places where people can exchange, depending on what they work in or where they work, and everybody comes together to share. That is so wonderful, because it's not only family-owned parks, small parks, big parks, but it's also the big private equity corporate players. They're all here to really benefit from this platform, and that fills me with pride.Paul Marden: Good. So, as the week draws to a close, what's been the real highlights for you?Jakob  Wahl: How much time do I have? First of all, the people. It's always the people. It's, you know, for me, it's my team coming together from all around the world, putting this together. And then it's... the people coming and creating those education sessions, creating those moments together, sharing their knowledge. That is just wonderful. There's not one specific moment like that, but it happens all the time. Jakob  Wahl: And then one of the highlights for me is always, always, always the opening reception. That is our Tuesday night event, which took place at Tibidabo, this classic historic amusement park on top of Barcelona. We were a little bit concerned Monday. Will it rain? Will it not rain? So we had to rent tents to make sure that everybody will stay dry. And what happens if you're intense? Obviously, it doesn't rain. Jakob  Wahl: There was an expensive insurance, but it turned out to be exactly that evening. And we have been to Barcelona three times now. We have been to the Tibidabo three times and I think I can be pretty sure that when we go back to Barcelona in three years, we will also go again to Tibidabo because, you know, it's just this evening filled with magic and good people.Paul Marden: Excellent. You've had some time wandering the show floors, I'm sure, talking to suppliers, getting a feel for what's happening in the industry. What have you heard from the show floor that you think is going to influence the sector over the year ahead?Jakob  Wahl: I would have loved to ask you that question, actually. What is your impression?Paul Marden: Oh, the blending of tech with real life I find really interesting. We all want to take our kids to attractions because we want to pull them away from their screens. But there's got to be a hook, I think. And in many cases, there are rides or there are amusements of some form that is a skillful blending of that tech with an in-life, in-real-life experience that I think is the hook to get the kids in. But then we're still wrenching them away from the screens. They're doing something for real with family.Jakob  Wahl: Yeah, I think technology enhances the experience. It doesn't replace the experience. I think that is something which is very clear on the show floor, that there are different ways of how you can combine existing attractions with new technology. And we sometimes call it fusion attractions, where you bring several elements into play with each other. And I think that is very important. What we have seen also is an increase in what I would call smart technology. How can you use technology... to improve the guest flow, to make it even smoother. We all want to have a smooth process. It should be easy on the phone. All those things, besides the classic coasters and water slides and inflatables, that is, I think, some area which has really grown on our trade show floor over the past years.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. If you can smooth that process from the moment that they hit the website all the way through, getting them to the experience and then back out the other side and encouraging them to want to return again is really important, isn't it?Jakob  Wahl: And the same is for operations and maintenance, the front of house for the customer, but also the back of house. And we learned some fascinating things. We talked in our leadership breakfast with the CEO of a large park group, and he said, 'There are tools that can now predict 93% of the attendance of every day.' And that is just fascinating because that helps operational planning, that helps food and beverage planning, that helps all those aspects in running a park successfully or running an attraction successfully.Paul Marden: Absolutely. So, as we come to the end of IAAPA Expo Europe, there are many US listeners, I'm sure, also quite a few Brits as well, anticipating IAAPA Expo Orlando in November. Have you got any insider tips or things that we can look forward to in Orlando? Jakob  Wahl: I can say it will be epic. There's quite a significant theme park which opened this year, Epic Universe, which is just down the road from the convention centre.Jakob  Wahl: And we actually have not only... Mark Woodbury is speaking in our keynote in our leadership breakfast. But we also have privatised the park on Thursday evening for the IAAPA Celebrates for four hours. So it is Epic Universe, just for IAAPA members, which will be amazing. I've had the luck to visit the park several times. And I can only tell you, you know, you should be there. The evening before the show opens on Monday, IAAPA has the Legends event, the honorary evening for the Hall of Fame. And this year we're actually inducting five inductees. Among them is Dolly Parton. So if you have ever wanted to meet Dolly Parton. Paul Marden: The real Dolly Parton. Wow.Jakob  Wahl: Yeah, Dolly Parton is getting into the IAAPA Hall of Fame, besides some other really fantastic candidates or inductees. And she will be there to receive that accolade. And as you said, you have many British listeners. Next year, IAAPA Expo Europe is in London.Paul Marden: Now, I'd quite like to do an edit for my family that might be listening, because that did sound quite epic. And we need to be absolutely clear that there's lots of hard work to be done in Orlando, as well as enjoying ourselves at Epic and seeing Dolly Parton.Jakob  Wahl: Yeah, I'm pretty sure we need to Skip the Queue on site for a podcast from Orlando.Paul Marden: Oh, there we go. There we go. I think we should end it there. Jakob, it has been delightful to meet you. I've really enjoyed it. I'm so grateful for being invited to come to IAAPA this year. Bring the podcast here. I've had so much fun. I've learned so much. It's been wonderful. Thank you.Jakob  Wahl: Oh, we love what you do. Thank you, you know, for making the attractions industry present in the digital space. And we are all great listeners of your podcast. So thank you for what you do for us.Paul Marden: Wow, what a week. A massive thank you to IAAPA for hosting us in Barcelona. It was an incredible few days of connection, innovation, and inspiration. We've absolutely loved being part of it. And who knows, maybe we'll see you again sooner than you think. If you liked today's episode, please like us or leave a comment on your podcast platform. It really does help people to find us. And lastly, thank you to all of the team that made these daily episodes and today's wrap-up session. A possibility without the team it could not have been possible to have done this— thank you to Emily and Sami at Plaster, Steve at Folland Co. Wenayn, Claire, and Andy back at Skip the Queue HQ. It has been a delight to be with you and I look forward to seeing you again next week. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

It's Day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe, and this episode of Skip the Queue brings you insights from industry leaders. Hear from Andreas Andersen (Liseberg), Peter van der Schans (IAAPA EMEA), Laura Read (Marwell Zoo), Aaron Wilson (ProSlide), and Robbi Jones (Katapult) on resilience, creativity, and the future of attractions.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.liseberg.se/en/https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-veilstrup-andersen/Andreas Veilstrup Andersen is the CEO and President of the Liseberg Group, Sweden – operating one of Scandinavia's most visited amusement parks. Andreas has a legal and financial background and has been working in the amusement park industry since 2000.  First in several capacities at Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen, Denmark, later as Vice President of European operations at IAAPA EMEA in Brussels, Belgium. Andreas was the 2018 Chairman of IAAPA. He currently holds board positions at Farup Sommerland and Alsik Hotel in Denmark, as well as Momentum Leisure and Leo's Lekland, Europe's largest chain of FEC's. Andreas is heading up IAAPA's sustainability initiatives, and occasionally blogs on https://reflections.liseberg.se/.Plus, live from the Day 3 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Aaron Wilson - Vice President, Business Development Europe & Latin America, Proslide Technologyhttps://www.proslide.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronlouiswilson/Robbie Jones - Insights Director, Katapaulthttps://www.katapult.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrrobbiejones/Peter van der Schans - Executive Director & Vice President, IAAPA EMEAhttps://iaapa.org/expos-and-events/expo-europehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-van-der-schans-87715717/Laura Read - Chief Executive, Marwell Zoohttps://www.marwell.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-read-she-her-98110726/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and together with my co-host, Andy Povey, and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe. On today's show, Andy talks to Andreas Andersen, CEO and President of iseberg Group, about resilience. I meet Peter van der Schans from IAAPA EMEA, and we catch up with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. First, let's go over to Andy.Andy Povey: So I'm joined now by Andreas Andersen, who's the chief exec of Liseberg, Scandinavia's most visited amusement park. Andreas, welcome to Barcelona. It's very good to see you here. Can you tell the listeners at home a little bit about Liseberg and what you do there?Andreas Andersen:  Sure. So I'm heading up one of the classic regional city-based parks in Northern Europe. So you have Liseberg, you have Tivoli in Copenhagen, you have Kornalund in Stockholm, and Linnanmaki in Helsinki. And we're part of this tradition of parks that have a very strong community base and a long history. Liseberg is 102 years old and three years old. And also parks that represent cultural heritage as well as reflect the cities we're located in. Lovely, lovely regional park in downtown Gothenburg. And if you haven't been, you should come visit.Andy Povey: Absolutely. I must admit, I haven't made it there myself yet. It's on the bucket list. So our theme for today's recording is about recovery and resilience. And recently, in your blog address, you wrote that you feel like for the past four years, you've been in constant crisis mode. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Andreas Andersen: Well, I think a lot of executives or just people working in this industry can recognise that the last four or five years have been very turbulent, very, very, very volatile.Andreas Andersen: It all started with the pandemic in March 2020, we were at Lisa closed down for 17 months, so we didn't have any any business at all for for 17 months. Then we reopened in the middle of '21, very very hard— you know, with a lot of restrictions and an organisation that had not been you know operating anything for a long time and we also had to let go a lot of people. Then in '22, I think everybody experienced this giant rush, you know, that everybody wanted to get back into the park. So we couldn't really keep up with demand. And that was stressful in a different way. In '23, the market in the Nordics really suffered for some reason. It was a wit, summer and inflation, and interest rates.Andreas Andersen: And everything that went with, you could say, sort of the beginning of an economic downturn. And then, in 2024, our biggest investment, our biggest project expansion in the last 100 years, a large new indoor water park burned down. So it feels like these four or five years has really been this chain of crisis that we've had to get over and manage, basically.Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean, what we're hearing from people on the show floor is that the economic and political unrest that we have all over the Western world is creating some turbulence in the market. So talk to us a little bit more about the fire at Oceania. What happened?Andreas Andersen: We had been building the water park for almost three years, and we were six, seven weeks away from handover. It was some of the last works on the right installation that went wrong. It was a plastic welding that overheated, and these things happen, as you know.Andreas Andersen: Unfortunately, we lost a colleague in the fire and that was basically, you could say, that overshadowed, I would say, everything, especially in the first weeks. Andreas Andersen: That was devastating to all of us and obviously, especially his family. But soon after, we also had to make some decisions. You know, did we want to rebuild? How did we want to rebuild? At what pace? How would we finance? etc. etc. So you also very quickly move into the next phase of a crisis management and that is recovery. And we've been in that phase ever since. Andy Povey: Interesting. It's a devastating situation. I mean, your concern obviously has to be for the team and the people involved— not just those affected directly, but everybody on the floor who feels an emotional impact from this situation. So what tips would you give, as a leader, going through a situation like that, to anyone else listening who may be facing their own challenges?Andreas Andersen:  Well, I think I learned a lot during those weeks and months. And I think I learned that in a crisis, especially of this magnitude, everything becomes very naked. Everything becomes very raw. And you cannot really play a role as a leader. You have to be yourself. You have to be authentic. And it's okay to also show emotions and be caught up in this process of figuring out what to do with the project and the team and yourself when you meet challenges of this severity. Andreas Andersen:  So I would say be yourself, but also recognise that I always say that leadership in a crisis is a little bit like your biggest asset is the confidence that people have in you. And that confidence is something you build up over years. It's a little bit like a bank account that you can then draw on when the crisis hits. But you really have to make sure that you have something on that bank account. You can't borrow confidence. It's not up for loan. So you really, you know, crisis management, from a leadership perspective, actually starts a lot earlier than the crisis. It's about, you know, building a team that works well together, that trusts you and has confidence in you. And then, when the crisis hits, you know, you can draw on that trust, draw on that confidence. So I think that's two of the learnings that I had during this process.Andy Povey: I love the idea of the bank that you can draw on. We're making deposits in our bank every day, not just as a commercial leadership level, but a personal level as well. You need to have that resilience built in yourself. A lovely analogy. And I really love the idea of authenticity. So, if we move on now to talking a little bit more about what we do in an attraction, I think authenticity plays a really big part in that. So, how important is it for you to keep innovating at Liseberg?Andreas Andersen: It's super important because we are in a regional market. I mean, if you look at how our guests are composed, you know, we have 90% Swedish people and then 10%, maybe 12% in a good year from other, especially Nordic countries. But the majority are Swedish and about 60% of our total volume is actually from the local market. And if you want to attract the local market and you want to drive revisitation, Gothenburg is a large city, but it's not a huge city. You have to keep the product fresh. You have to reinvest, reinvent, and constantly adapt. And I think that's actually... part of the, you could say, the formula for these Nordic city-based parks that we've actually had to all reinvent, you know, throughout our history. I mean, Tivoli, that was founded in 1843, it was built by this crazy entrepreneur called Geo Carstensen.Andreas Andersen: And when Tivoli opened on the 15th of August, it was late, it was over budget, and it was not quite finished. And he got a question from a journalist, you know, asking him, you know, when will Tivoli be finished? And his response was, 'Never.' Tivoli will never be finished. And I think, you know, it's almost 200 years ago that he said this, but I think it encompasses sort of the real DNA of our industry that we have to constantly evolve with our guests and reinvent ourselves. And I think, again, that the city, the Nordic city-based parks have really been quite good at that.Andy Povey: Obviously, I mean, Liseberg with 100 years, Tivoli with almost 200 years. There's something good there. You're doing something right. So more recently, you've taken a position with, I'm going to pronounce this awfully, Leo's Lekland. Compare and contrast Liseberg to Europe's largest chain of family entertainment centres?Andreas Andersen:  I mean, there are a lot of similarities and also a lot of differences. I think what is interesting for me, you know, working with Leos is that it's, in many ways, the model is the same. I mean, you pay an entrance fee, you spend a few hours with your family, you may eat a lunch or buy an ice cream or a plush animal. So in many ways, it's the same. But I think, when we're talking about these attractions that are really designed for shorter visits, there is a convenience perspective to them that it's slightly different than, you know, visiting an amusement park or a theme park for a full day. I remember once I had a conversation with one of our competitors in this market, not FECs as such, but, you know, these shorter visits, you know, two, three-hour visit attractions, very often midway attractionsAndreas Andersen: And he said, 'What we sell is actually not.' necessarily an experience, it is two hours spent and I think that's a little bit of a different perspective on an attraction that you actually also go to, Leo's Lekland, to have your kids, you know, be really really tired when they get home, you know, in today's world, where everything is a lot of a lot of stuff is digital and and the kids sit there with their with the tablets and their phones and or their game consoles or they're online with their friends. I think play has a huge and important role to play in the development of motoric and social skills for kids. I think physical play will be something we're going to discuss a lot in the decades to come, because I think we lost a couple of generations the last 20 years. And I think that's a super dangerous thing. So getting back to your question, a lot of similarities, but there are also some differences and I've learned a lot by working with them.Andy Povey: Fantastic. The talk about play really resonates. We lost a year, maybe 18 months through COVID. I have 11-year-old twin girls. I love the idea that me taking them to our local FEC on a Saturday morning so I could recover from a hangover while they went and played was a really positive, good parent thing to do. So thank you for that. We're at the show. What are you looking forward to seeing when you get out on the show floor, when we eventually let you go out on the show floor?Andreas Andersen:  Oh! I very rarely have a plan. I like to just stroll around. Actually, I see it a little bit like visiting an amusement park. You shop for experiences and you see what happens. I think one of the great things about these expos is the fact that, and that's probably what I look most forward to, is that you meet your industry colleagues.Andreas Andersen:  A company like ours, Liseberg, we do not exist; we do not operate within a chain structure. We do not have a corporate mother that knows a lot about what we do. We do not have other parks that we can benchmark with. So these shows is also a little bit a way for us to get out of the bubble and meet other people that work with the same thing as we do. So it's actually not as much the expo floor or the events or the educational program as it is meeting the people. I enjoy.Andy Povey: Andreas, it's been great talking to you. Thank you very much for your time and have a fantastic show.Andreas Andersen:  And I wish you the very same. Thank you.Paul Marden: Now let's head over to the show floor. So we are here on the ProSlide stand, and I'm here with Aaron. Aaron, introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about ProSlide.Aaron  Wilson: Hi, nice to meet you. Thanks for coming in. I'm Aaron Wilson, Senior Vice President, Business Development, EMEA, with ProSlide. I've been with ProSlide for nine years. We're focused really on the design and innovation of rides. That's where we really form the nucleus of who ProSlide is.Paul Marden: Okay, so what are you launching here at this year's IAAPA?Aaron  Wilson:  Yeah, so let's walk over here to our model table. Where we have a large model of our newest feature, which is the Hive. We actually opened up two rides this year, one at Chimelong in China, the most attended water park in the world. Paul Marden: Wow. Aaron  Wilson:  And that's with a five-person family raft, everyone seated facing each other.Paul Marden: That's amazing. So you're going through this on a five-person ring kind of thing?Aaron  Wilson:  Exactly, a five-person tube. So it's a tight radius helix curve. So as you enter, you're entering into a completely open, basically cathedral space. But as you're dropping and turning very quickly, you're staying really stuck along the outside of the wall, feeling those centrifugal forces. And you have a 360-degree global view. So you're able to look forward, backwards, upwards, down. See everywhere where you came from and where you're headed.Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it? Because you've got transparent sides on it. So you can see outside as well.Aaron  Wilson:  Absolutely. And there's a ton of theming potential here. In the middle is a support structure. And so we're working on theming there in the middle, if we can. Special effects around the outside. In this case, it's transparent. Exactly.Paul Marden: You've got some amazing models on the table here. This is one of those rides that you can't really bring to IAAPA and experience in real life because we'd all have to be in our swimmers.Aaron  Wilson:  Unfortunately, yes.Paul Marden: But some amazing, amazing models. What's innovative about this? What's this bringing to the market, which is unusual?Aaron  Wilson:  So you have that 360-degree helix turn. We've completely opened it up. So normally in a turn, you can only see a few meters in front of you. In this case, it's a feature that's completely open as you're making that turn. And so you can see everywhere, right? Up and down, forwards, backwards. And that's really part of the differentiation. But obviously the biggest sensation is actually that experience you feel as you have those centrifugal forces around the outside. With a five-person boat, you're looking at about 800 pounds, and you're whipping around the outside, gaining tons of speed throughout. So it's really exciting. The additional interesting thing about this element is we're also doing a two-person tube and a small compact footprint.Aaron  Wilson:  So it's very adaptable for indoor parks or even outdoor parks that don't have a ton of space. That compact footprint gives a lot of flexibility in the design.Paul Marden: So you've got this in China at the moment, you say?Aaron  Wilson:  Yep, and one in the US. And there are a lot more to come in the next one to two years already programmed and open. So we're really excited about this for the water parks.Paul Marden: That's amazing. So we've been asking everybody to get their crystal ball out and tell us trends for 2026. Where do you think the market is going? What do you think that we can expect to see this time next year at IAAPA? Aaron  Wilson:  Water coasters. Water coasters are the big thing. Paul Marden: What on earth is a water coaster? Aaron  Wilson:  Yeah, well, let's head over here to another model table. We have a couple of examples here. So I would say, like in the last couple of years, specifically speaking about Europe, we've seen an amazing response to our water coaster technology using water propulsion. We call it the rocket blast.Paul Marden: Right.Aaron  Wilson:  And so what you have is a series of injectors placed along the uphill sections that actually push the boat uphill. That's amazing. And so with that technology, we're able to do a number of things. And this actually, this ride opened about a year and a half ago at Land of Legends in Turkey. This is, you know, one of the biggest things that will stand out to you here is, as you're looking around all the models, what's very common with a water park is you have—gravity-fed rides, meaning you climb a tower and use gravity to go down. Paul Marden:  This is very flat and long. Aaron  Wilson:  Exactly. This is built essentially on grade. There's no tower here. So, I mean, the first thing is accessibility. So now, as you know, there's no steps. You know, water parks are historically very difficult to meet accessibility. Paul Marden: Yeah. Do you know, I've never thought of that before. But of course, you need to climb the stairs to be able to get to the top of the tower.Aaron  Wilson:  So this case, this is called Turtle Coaster. And this is at Land of Legends. Our guests can walk or, you know, walk or wheel.Paul Marden: Yep.Aaron  Wilson:  As they want up this ramp. This is about four meters off grade. We have a little bit of a drop here. So this is a closed-circuit coaster, right? Meaning the guests are finishing and ending in the same location. Also something different from a water ride. Normally you're going up a tower and finishing in a pool. Here you're finishing and starting at the same location, much like a mechanical dry-growing coaster.Paul Marden: And this, just for listeners' benefit, this has got eight or nine turns in there. It's really, you know. It's going to be a normal coaster-type ride, isn't it?Aaron  Wilson:  This is a 420-meter-long coaster. You're looking at about a minute-and-a-half water ride, which is crazy. Most water rides are about 30 seconds, you know? So it's a really long experience. You have eight uphill last sections, along with what else is unique with our technology is we're able to incorporate these flat last sections. So much like a mechanical coaster has that launch element to it. We're able to do that with water propulsion. So right off the stop, you have this completely flat launch blast. Up, you're getting the elevation. You go around for 420 meters, a series of flying saucer features, uphill sections. Coming back into a water channel.Aaron  Wilson:  And landing in the landing pool, it picks you up on a moving station conveyor. So this conveyor is actually moving at a very slow pace. Guests are cutting off and getting back on.Paul Marden: This is not a lazy river, is it? That you're just sat around for a little while. This is going to hair around.Aaron  Wilson:  Absolutely not. And then here at Siam Park is another coaster here. We opened up in '23. Doolin. So you had two lanes.Paul Marden: Oh, wow.Aaron  Wilson:  And you're racing side by side throughout the experience.Paul Marden: That is amazing. Well, Aaron, look— it's been wonderful to meet you. Find out more about what you're doing here. Looks super, super exciting. I want to get my swimmers on and go and try some, but maybe not whilst we're here in Barcelona, but maybe one time soon.Andy Povey: So we're on the show floor again and I'm with Robbie Jones from Katapult. Robbie, please tell the listeners at home a little bit about Katapult, what you do with them.Robbie  Jones: So we design themed attractions, experiences and destinations. So that can be anything from theme parks all the way through to museums. And our— I guess our core competency is design stage, so pre-concept designs. We get involved quite a lot in theme parks that are very early stages. And my role in that is quite unique within the team of creatives and designers, in that I look towards the insights. So sometimes I work with feasibility partners to kind of pull together the economic requirements for a theme park or an attraction to exist. But more often than not, it's about the guest journey, the guest behaviour, how can we make the guest experience as best as possible by understanding information research that we might have already but also doing some primary research as well to make sure we're creating like that amazing moment for every person that walks through the door.Andy Povey: Fantastic. That sounds really, really impressive. Looking back over 2025, what are your key takeaways from this year so far?Robbie  Jones: Goodness, me. I think I'll speak with a lot of what the industry would say, which is it's been a little bit sticky in places in 2025. There's certainly been more maybes than yeses or nos in terms of projects. But I think we're starting to see things beginning to move. Someone's put some oil in the engine somewhere, which is great. And there's some really exciting projects coming up. Obviously, as a UK-based company, seeing the likes of Universal, Poodie Foo, setting up shop. It's going to be really interesting to see how that impacts not just the UK, but the European market as well.Andy Povey: I couldn't agree more. I really, really look forward to seeing that anticipated improvement in quality of experience that we'll get across the UK. So looking forward to '26 now, what are you anticipating as being the exciting things we're talking about in 12 months' time?Robbie  Jones: Gosh, I mean, I think there will be an element of a quiet time, I think, especially with the new build theme parks, whether that's in the UK or, of course, in the Middle East. I think there'll be an element of quiet that we need to get used to in terms of waiting to see what the next big thing is or the next IP that's going to be in those rides. But I certainly see a lot more positive vibes coming out of the industry. I think we'll see more exciting local experiences, maybe not just big global ones. And yeah, just on the horizon, maybe plenty more opportunity and positivity.Paul Marden: It has been my first IAAPA Expo, and I've had a whale of a time. And I am joined here by Peter van der Schans, the VP and Exec Director of IAAPA EMEA. Peter. Tell me a little bit about what the show has been like for you because I've had an amazing time.Peter van der Schans: Well, so did I. The funny thing is we've always worked so hard on these expos. It takes a hell of a lot of time and it all comes back in this one week. And once you exit that plane or train or however you arrive, you start in a bus and then it's over before you know it.Peter van der Schans: And the week is done and you fall in this big black hole. That's where we're going now. So it's been a wonderful week and it's great to see all our members and every industry leader that is visiting us. We're a small team at IAAPA. We're not a huge organisation, but we have our members supporting us. It's a team effort from both IAAPA and our members, basically. And it's only pride.Paul Marden: One of the most important parts of the show, I think, is the educational side of what you do. There's been a big educational program. Are there any big themes that you've spotted coming out of that education strand?Peter van der Schans: So the education program actually is built with our members and by our members. So, of course, we guide it and shape it. But it's actually done by our members. So it's our members saying, 'Hey, this is where I have issues with. This is the trends I see. This is where I think this is going, which makes it always accurate because we have that industry knowledge by our members.' So in that sense, what we saw this year, there's a lot of focus on AI, obviously, the hot topic nowadays. Paul Marden: It's not a single interview I do where somebody hasn't dropped AI into it. So it's a hot topic.Peter van der Schans: It's a hot topic. And I'm very curious also to see where it's going because right now, if you see execution, the focus is much on back office. For example, Parks Reunidos for example, shared on stage, that they can now predict their next, the next day in visitor numbers with accuracy of 93% which is perfect. Things like that. But I'm curious exactly to see how it's going to evolve in the future to the front end. So what is that visitor going to see in the future? Whenever I go to a theme park, for example, will I be recognised by my name? And if I ride a ride, will the animatronic know my name, for example? Things like that. I think there's limitless possibilities.Peter van der Schans: And we're just at the verge of the beginning. And it's also so, so, so excited about that education program that we share what we know and we work together to get to that point to make it better. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. The collaboration in this sector is just amazing. And IAAPA is just the living proof of that. So many smiling faces. You know that there were competitors together on stands just chatting and enjoying. It's a really enriching experience seeing everybody work together.Peter van der Schans: It is, it is. And the funny thing is I've worked in this industry since I was 16. I started as a ride operator. I didn't know any better than when I had an issue when I became supervisor and manager that I could call the park at the other end of the country and ask, like, 'Hey, how are you dealing with this?' And they helped me. And then I worked at the cinema industry and suddenly I realised that that is not that common in all industries, to say it lightly. It was much more competitive and I didn't want to share anything and really opened my eyes in a way that I realised, like, 'hey, this is special'. And also made me realise that IAAPA plays a big part in that as well, as an organisation to bring all those people together, to provide that platform to work together.Paul Marden: Yes, the facilitators of the community, aren't you? I'm going to ask you a slightly controversial question here. Outside of show hours, what has been your favourite party or event? And you can name drop any one of them. It's absolutely fine. Nobody will be upset with you.Peter van der Schans: I must say the ballpark reception, obviously for the British people. Always good beers. The Tuesday events with the opening ceremony, where we really kick off the week. They made me dance again. I don't recommend watching that back, but that's always just a fun, fun morning where we really kick off the week with a big energy, with a nice connection to the host city as well. Peter van der Schans: It's always fun to work on that and to execute that, but also the evening event, the opening reception where we gather. Well, this year we had 1,400 industry professionals coming together and mixing, mingling in Tibidabo. Without rain, thankfully. Paul Marden: Well, yes, this is the thing. So I was watching the skies thinking this could go really badly wrong. The BBC weather forecasts were not looking good. Peter van der Schans: There's this tradition in Barcelona that you bring eggs to nuns and they make sure you'll have good weather. We did that. We brought three dozens.Paul Marden: Took a lot of eggs. There was a lot of eggs broken in the making of this party. But you did very well. We're at the end. And everybody gets to heave a big sigh of relief that the show's done. It's in the can. But there's also a touch of sadness and fondness looking forward to what comes next. So next year, what have you got coming up first? I understand there's something in the Middle East.Peter van der Schans: Yeah, absolutely. We actually last year at this expo in Amsterdam, we announced the launch of our newest expo, IAAPA Expo Middle East, which is actually the first time in IAAPA's history that we built a new expo from scratch.Peter van der Schans: Never done that before, our members and and people in the industry ask us year after year like, 'When is IAAPA coming to the Middle East?' Of course, there's a huge amount of investments going on in that region. It's crazy. And in that sense, we we simply listen to our members and decide that this is the time we need to go. And we're excited to get closer and closer to the actual launch of the event in March in 2026 in Abu Dhabi.Paul Marden: So March 2026, Abu Dhabi is our next event. But there is another event coming next year. IAAPA is coming to London, which I'm very pleased about. Tell me, is the planning all starting on Monday? Are you already a long way through planning? Plans you can share with me about what's coming up in London?Peter van der Schans: We will have an exciting program for sure, but we're not there yet with with the actual education programme. That takes a little bit more of time, but we do have the show Florencial already and that's looking to be another record-breaking show. What I think also remarkable is that we will have one third more education than we will have in our previous show. So we always had two conference rooms— we'll have three in London. So we'll have actually quite a big increase in our educational offerings as well.Paul Marden: That's amazing. I cannot wait. This has been my first IAAPA, but it won't be my last IAAPA. I think I can confidently say that. So grateful for you and the team inviting us along as Skip the Queue to be part of what you've been doing. We've had an amazing time and I cannot wait to see you again in London.Peter van der Schans: Thank you very much and happy to have you here.Paul Marden: We are here at the end of day three of IAAPA Expo Europe. We've had a wonderful time. Andy Povey: I'm broken. Paul Marden: Oh man, I'm going home a broken man. The voice is barely holding on. I am here with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. Welcome to Skip the Queue, Laura.Laura Read: Hello. Thank you for having me.Paul Marden: Laura, what's it been like for you? What's the benefit of coming to IAAPA for you?Laura Read: So this is my first IAAPA. For me, this was all around looking at what's new for visitor attractions, what's innovative, what's coming up, and what could we potentially bring to the visitors of Marwell Zoo that might be exciting and might drive more visitors to come to us, really, ultimately. It's all about, for us, diversification, keeping the zoo product at the core of our offer, obviously, but seeing how we can augment that with other things.Paul Marden: So what can we expect? Is it going to be a 4D immersive ride experience? Water slides? Or are you looking for something that enriches the in-real-life experience for you? And it's a bit more low-tech.Laura Read: Oh, I'd love to put in like a water park. Do you know what? That's something like the coolest stalls. Like going around going, 'oh, I'd love to design a water park. That's so fun. No, no'. So for us, it's really about looking at sort of smaller, lower-level, new attractions that we can bring in, you know, we're primarily a family audience. So it's what do kids want to play on? You know, I've seen some really cool little ride-on Jeeps that we think would work really, really well because we also want to stay true to our ethos. You know, Marwell's built its reputation on our conservation work, our hands-on conservation work in the field, you know, reversing species decline and also around sustainability. So sustainability is really core to our offer.Laura Read: This is not about turning Marwell into a theme park or a water park or anything like that, because the animals are still very much the stars of the show, as is the conservation work. But it's about how we can best utilise our space to provide that density of guest experience. And I think seeing all the things here today. That's where the inspiration comes in.Paul Marden: I think it's really interesting, isn't it? Because when you take your kids to the zoo, you need some space. You need a palate cleanser between the animals, don't you? To give the kids time to burn off some energy, to do something a little bit different. And then they come back re-energised and you're hiding the vegetables. You're teaching them about the conservation efforts and all the really important stuff that you do, but hidden around lots of things that keep them happy and engaged in what's going on.Laura Read: Exactly. The problem with zoos is the animals— they don't care that they're the exhibits.Laura Read: And, you know, we are a primarily outdoor attraction. Extremes of heat, rainy days, animals disappear. We know that. We know that the perennial problem is: I didn't see any animals because we have really, really high animal welfare levels and standards. And if those animals want to go off show and take themselves off to bed or away from the public view, they all can and should and do. So we need something that can keep kids particularly engaged and entertained, hopefully getting across a bit of education and messaging as well at the same time. That's a massive tick in the box. But, you know, it fills in the gaps when those animals just aren't playing ball.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Andy, what's been the highlight of day three for you, mate?Andy Povey: So I think it's actually talking to Laura.Paul Marden: Such a charmer.Andy Povey: Let me finish. Let me justify. It's really picking up the fact that this isn't just a theme park show. Yeah. There are elements for everything you could possibly do any day out any attraction, even in any shopping centre or any place you go to where there's large crowds of people— so it's all of that kind of stuff. I think is it's refreshing to see it through someone else's eyes, through our conversations.Laura Read: I was going to say, 'I have to say,'  Before I was chief exec at Marwell, I ran a really large, shopping centre like retail, leisure, events, and destination. And I'm amazed that this is not on more commercial real estate people's radar. I look to see if there's anyone from a previous company here, then there isn't on the attendees list. And I'm like, 'Wow,' this is all the stuff that we should have been thinking about five years ago, ten years ago, when we were realising that diversification from a retail point of view is so important because of online shopping. So that's really interesting what you say. It's not just the theme parks.Andy Povey: No, absolutely not. It's all about the day out. And ultimately, that's all. We're all here to do is we work in a fun industry, and fun doesn't have to just be an amusement park.Paul Marden: Yeah, I found it really interesting. Seeing the things that I've seen has stretched my definition of what a visitor attraction actually is, because it is more than just a theme park. As you wander around and you see the different exhibitors, I was expecting to see... The ride designers and some of the really cool tech that I've seen. But there was other stuff that I've seen that I just hadn't expected.Andy Povey: No, I mean, I was chatting yesterday to a guy who supplies park benches and litter bins.  You see them everywhere. Paul Marden: I say the park bench thing. I remember when I was working at the Botanic Gardens in Wales as it was being built, the importance of the park bench and sitting on them. And they were beautiful park benches, but they were also super comfy. The importance of a park bench, like a good toilet, can't be underestimated.Laura Read: You can always tell someone who works in visitor attraction operations, when they go to any other visitor attraction, they take pictures of the bins. I think that is an absolute giveaway. When I go places with my family and the kids are there, taking pictures of animals or taking pictures of each other or whatever they're doing. And I'm there. Oh, I'm just gonna take a picture of that sign. You know, like.Andy Povey: I have another confession to make. I had a conversation with my wife who took the kids to an attraction a couple of weeks ago. And I was most distressed that she hadn't taken a picture of the till for me.Paul Marden: Oh, you would know what the part number and everything about that till, wouldn't you? Such a retail geek.Paul Marden: Laura, thank you so much for joining us on Skip the Queue. It has been delightful. I feel that there might be a full episode coming on, talking about the zoo, if you'll have me.Laura Read: Yes, absolutely. Bring it on. Paul Marden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much.Andy Povey: Andy, take me to the airport.Paul Marden: If you enjoyed this episode, please like and comment in your podcast app. It really helps more people to find us. Show notes and links to all our guests this week are available on our website, skipthequeue.fm. It's been a massive team effort to take Skip the Queue to IAAPA. A huge thank you to Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle, Steve Folland and Wenalyn Dionaldo, Claire Furnival and Andy Povey, as well as Erica Washington-Perry and her team at IAAPA Global Communications.Paul Marden: Next week, we're wrapping up our IAAPA theme, talking to Choni Fernandez, Chief Sustainability Officer at PortAventura Entertainment, and Jakob Wahl, President and CEO of IAAPA. See you then.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey sits down with Jérôme Giacomoni, co-founder and Chairman of AEROPHILE, the world leader in tethered gas balloons and immersive aerial experiences. Jérôme shares the story of how AEROPHILE began with a simple idea, to “make everybody fly” and grew into a global company operating in multiple countries, including France and the U.S.Tune in to hear about the company's signature attractions, including tethered balloon flights, the innovative Aerobar concept, and high-profile projects such as how you can experience flying the Olympic cauldron in Paris. Jérôme also shares how AEROPHILE has leveraged its unique platform to explore scientific initiatives like air-quality and climate-change monitoring and how he Integrates unique revenue streams from sponsorship and advertising.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.aerophile.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerome-giacomoni-3074b7/Jérôme Giacomoni is co-founder of Groupe AEROPHILE and Chairman of AEROPHILE SAS. Since 1993, he has led the company to become the world leader in tethered gas balloons and balloon flights, operating iconic sites in France, the U.S., and Cambodia, and flying over 500,000 passengers annually. He also pioneered “flying food-tainment” with the Aerophare and Aerobar. Jérôme is a member of IAAPA, serves on the board of SNELAC, and is a Team France Export ambassador, earning multiple awards for entrepreneurship and innovation. Plus, live from the Day 2 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Rheanna Sorby –Marketing & Creative Director,  The Seasonal Grouphttps://theseasonalgroup.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/rheanna-sorby-seasonal/Sohret Pakis – Polin Waterparkshttps://www.polin.com.tr/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sohretpakis/Thomas Collin – Sales Manager, VEX Solutionshttps://www.vex-solutions.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-collin-18a476110/Peter Cliff – CEO // Founder, Conductr.https://conductr.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-cliff/Laura Baxter – Founder, Your CMOhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-baxter-4a756466/Josh Haywood – Resort Director, Crealy Theme Park & Resorthttps://www.crealy.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-haywood-68463630/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the people that work in them. I'm your host Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at IAAPA Expo Europe. In today's episode, I go on a trip on Santa's Enchanted Elevator with the Seasonal Group, and Claire meets Peter Cliff from Conductr. But before all that, let's head over to Andy.Andy Povey: Good morning, everybody. I'm joined today by Jerome Giacomoni from AEROPHILE for our French listeners. I hope I've got that right. Jerome is the chief exec of AEROPHILE and has been the co-founder and president of AEROPHILE. And AEROPHILE supply helium-based balloon observation opportunities. I probably got the marketing on that completely wrong, Jerome. So please, can you share with our listeners what AEROPHILE is all about?Jerome Giacomoni: So AEROPHILE is a company I created with Mathieu Gobbi, my partner, 32 years ago, with a very simple idea, make everybody fly, you know, and we use a balloon to fly. So we have a tethered balloon. We have a huge, big balloon inflated with helium, a gas lighter than air. And we go up to more or less 150 meters high. up to 30 passengers. So we are linked to the ground with a cable, and the cable is linked to a winch. So you have to imagine that you have a winch that— when we go up—pulls when we go down. This is the exact opposite of an elevator because the balloon wants to go higher and higher. We have a lifting force of four tons.Andy Povey:Wow.Jerome Giacomoni:Yes, it's a big one. And so we need a cable to keep it. And thanks to this lifting force, we can fight against the wind.Jerome Giacomoni: And so the balloon can swing when you have some wind because the balloon is just pulled by the cable itself.Andy Povey: And trust me, listeners, they look absolutely spectacular. Just before we started recording, I was admitting to Jerome that I'm scared of heights. So I've stood and watched. The dining balloon, Futuroscope, never managed to pluck up the courage to try it myself.Jerome Giacomoni: This is another concept, Andy. So we have built two concepts. One is a tethered balloon, a real one with helium, with a cable, with a winch, and we fly by ourselves. The balloon flies by itself, okay? We did another concept 20 years after we created our company, so 10 years before now, in 2013, which is what we call the aero bar. It's a flying bar, and you have an inflatable balloon. to cover the gondola, but it's a fake. This is a real elevator, and you have a gondola with some winches and a metallic structure, and you go up and down. So what you saw in Futuroscope is not a balloon. It's a real elevator.Jerome Giacomoni: And the one you can see in Disneyland Paris, Disney World, Orlando or San Diego Zoo are a real balloon named a tethered balloon. So I'm glad you fell down into the trick. You caught me. Yes, I'm glad about that. But we have really two different concepts.Andy Povey: But the concept, the thing that the guest is experiencing, isn't really related to whether it's a balloon or a lift.Jerome Giacomoni: No. i think it's very different okay i think the aerobar is fun and you have the feet in the sky you feel the thrill of height and everything but you stop at 35 meters it's it's quite high for a ride but it's not a real flight And I think the balloon is a real flight. We have a balloon in Paris. We have a balloon in Budapest, Berlin. And you see the city from the sky at 150 meters high, which is very high. So you really experience a flight. With the aerobar, you have a ride, okay? So both of them are related to the sky, are related to the view, but one is really a flight, the other one is really a ride.Andy Povey: That makes absolute sense.Andy Povey: It doesn't reassure me on my fear of heights anymore, that I would like to go up three times, four times taller, higher than the one I saw first. Very interesting. So, listeners, we're often talking about technology and attractions. There's a huge amount of talk about augmented reality, about AI, about motion simulators. The reason, Jerome, we asked you to come and talk to us is because you don't do any of that. No—your experience is fantastic and it's new and it's unique, but there's no technology or very little obvious technology.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, quite little. You know, it's amazing because we do this for now 32 years, as I told you. The first balloon was inflated in 1994. We have sold 120 balloons in more than 40 countries. And each time with the balloon, you have a magical effect, you know, because the balloon itself is very nice— because the balloon itself is a show from people looking at it from the ground. And because... The flight experience is amazing because you are really in the sky. You are really looking at the ground, at the landscape. You have no noise, you know, when you take a helicopter or plane. You have a lot of noise. You are in an enclosed airplane or helicopter. Here you are outside. You are on a balcony flying at 150 meters. And wherever we are, always we have like a magical effect of the flight. And with the flying bar, we decided to do something different— where we say, 'Why drink on ground where you can drink in the sky?'Jerome Giacomoni: So we add the drink to the ride, you know. So you are on a table and you have what we say in French conviviality. So we share a drink. We go at 35 meters and you have the thrill of the view of the height and also the conviviality of drinking. So this is another concept, but both of them are universal. And wherever we do it, we have sold 20 aero bars worldwide.Jerome Giacomoni: Everybody is very happy to have this kind of ride. I would say we are on the side of the main market. You know, we have two niche products. The balloon is a niche product. And the AeroBar is a niche product where we have another experience than a normal ride, like a roller coaster or a flume or a spinning coaster.Andy Povey: You say you're a nice product, but the balloon in Paris for the Olympics, where you lifted the cauldron, had phenomenal numbers of visitors watching. That wasn't something you could go on.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, it was an amazing opportunity. You know, sometimes life gives you some presents.Jerome Giacomoni: And imagine that we were contacted by the Olympic Organisation Committee one day, and we believed it was a joke. And they said, 'We need to talk to you.' And then we discovered that instead of flying humans, they asked us to fly a cauldron. So the Olympic cauldron. And we have like one year and a half of design and manufacturing.Jerome Giacomoni: And then, at 11 pm, 25, the balloon has to fly in front of everybody. I can tell you it was a very stressful time. But so nice and so amazing to have experiences. So, yes, the balloon suddenly was visible by everybody. And that's back now in Paris, isn't it? Yes. First of all, the balloon has to stay only twice— 15 days. You know, you have the Olympics and the Paralympics. So we were open only 30 days in total. And the success was so huge that every night, you have dozens of thousands of people coming to look at it. That's why the mayor of Paris and the French president decided to keep it.Jerome Giacomoni: And just after the deflation of the balloon, they call us back and say, 'Jerome and Mathieu, we would like to have the balloon back.' So we work again with the city of Paris and the French presidency, and we agreed to put the balloon.Jerome Giacomoni: Three times, three months. So from June 21st, in France, this is a music event, you know, the Day of Music. To September 14th, which is a day of sport. So every year until the Olympic game of LA, we will operate the balloon for three months in the summertime. Fantastic.Andy Povey: So, Jerome, you operate in lots and lots of different countries all over the world. I think it's 14 countries that you've been.Jerome Giacomoni: No, we sold, but we operate only in the US and in France.Andy Povey: Ah, okay. Interesting.Jerome Giacomoni: We own ourselves, we operate ourselves, six balloons in the 120 we have sold. So we operate three in Paris region. One, the Parc André Citroën, where we have the Generali balloon since 1999. One in Disneyland Paris since 2005. So we are in Disneyland Paris for now 20 years. Time is flying. And the last one, the Cold Run, which is a very specific event that we operate now for one year and for the next two years. And in the US, we operate Disney World Orlando in Disney Spring since 2009, and San Diego Zoo Safari Park since 2005, and Irvine. South of LA since 2007. So we operate now six balloons for a long, long time, except the cold run. And we keep selling balloons.Jerome Giacomoni: We sell more or less five to six balloons every year.Andy Povey: And how do you find the differences between the French culture and you're on either side of America, so the differences between the different coasts of America and France?Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, we... We are in the US, but we are also in Mexico, in a lot of countries in Asia. In the Middle East, we have a beautiful balloon in Dubai. We have a beautiful balloon in Seoul. So we work a lot with very different cultures. You know, it's very interesting to sell the same product to different cultures. So I would say... The main difference probably lies in the contract. It's very funny when you make the contract. I would say a 'yes' is not the same 'yes' depending on the culture. But everybody is, you know, you... You love people when you work worldwide. You learn a lot, you discover a lot. You have to learn with different cultures. And I have the chance in my professional life to experience that and to meet people from all over the world. And, you know, my job is to go on site, and discuss with someone, and see if it's possible or not to have a balloon at this place.Jerome Giacomoni: So it's always a beautiful job because I travel in a lot of countries in beautiful spots.Jerome Giacomoni: We don't succeed a lot because, if not, I would have sold thousands of balloons. We have always constraints with local authority, with food traffic, etc. But always, it's a pleasure to meet people. And once... The balloon is accepted by the local authority when the customer has a finance for it. Then start more or less a one-year work together between installation, work on site, inflation, and training of the team. And after... They fly with their own wings, even if we have no wings with our balloons.Andy Povey: Very good. And I imagine that you don't put balloons into ugly places.Jerome Giacomoni: We did, sometimes for specific contracts. Ugly, I won't use this name, but not very obvious, logical site. But it has happened. Sometimes we do for small events or for specific needs.Jerome Giacomoni: But yes, most of the time, the sites are very interesting.Andy Povey: So there are other things you're doing with the balloons. So the air quality messaging that you have above Paris. Tell us more about your opportunities to influence in other areas.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, you know, the balloon is not only a ride, a passenger ride, but it's also an amazing opportunity for communication and for advertisement. So in the city center, like Paris, Berlin, or Seoul, the balloon is used also as a giant advertising billboard. So you have two revenues. You have the revenue of the passenger, but you have also the sponsor revenue.Jerome Giacomoni: When we started the balloon in Paris, it was extremely difficult to get the authorisation to have a balloon in Paris centre. We are two kilometres south of the Eiffel Tower. But you remember, we had the famous Millennium, the Y2K. uh and and so the mayor faris was looking for a new idea and we propose a balloon And they gave us only a one year and a half contract. And the investment was quite huge. And we told him, OK, we can do it, but we cannot do it for only one year and a half. Except if you accept that we have a name on the balloon, a naming and a sponsor on the balloon. And the mayor say yes. And we start another business where we put sponsor on the balloon. And this is a very good business because it makes a... activity immediately profitable so we did that in Paris in 1999 and in 2008 the balloon was like 10 years old because when you fly you have your the balloon is huge we talk about a 32 meters high balloon we talk about like a 12-story building.Jerome Giacomoni: So everybody knows the balloon in Paris. Everybody can see it. And so, when we fly, we have 400,000 people who immediately see us. So we decided to give citizen aspect. And we start— pour changer le couleur de la balle selon la qualité de l'air. C'était en 2008. Et parce que nous l'avons fait, nous avons des scientifiques... coming to us and say, 'Hey, this balloon is a wonderful platform to measure air quality because you make like a carrot of the air from zero to 150 meters. Jerome Giacomoni:  Can we bring some scientist instrument on the gondola? And we say yes. And then we start to make science. And then we start to make scientific publications, scientific publications. And then we start a new business where the balloon is not only a tethered gas balloon for passenger, it's only... advertising billboard and now it's only a scientific platform and so this is very interesting and the last things we have done in 2024 no this year in 2025 is to use the balloon for global climate change. As you know, we have two main gas pollutants for the climate change, CO2 and CH4. And the balloon is a perfect platform to measure evolution on CO2 and CH4. So we are working with a European group named ICOS. gathering all the best laboratories in Europe, who are making a huge study on how CO2 and CH4 how they are in each city.Jerome Giacomoni: And Paris has been chosen as a pilot city. So we are very glad to work with them. And so now the Balloon is also working on climate change. And we will have big, big, big LED screen. So we make some technology sometime, as you said, to inform people on the temperature elevation in Europe and in the world. And the news are very bad, as everybody knows.Andy Povey: But that's fascinating. I love the integration you've been able to take from this unique proposition and apply it to different markets, different problems.Jerome Giacomoni: You know, Andy, I think we have to exit from the box. My message to... all people who are listening to us.Jerome Giacomoni: Okay, passenger rides is very important. It's a key market for many of us. But sometimes we can use... another way to find new flow of revenue, like advertising, and we can be also helpful to our other citizens, like working freely for scientists to make measurements on pollutants of the air. This helps with both air quality and also climate change.Andy Povey: It's a beautiful concept, Jerome. I love it. Love it.Andy Povey: So, final question. Your experiences are obviously very unique. What advice would you have for a venue and possibly a smaller venue that doesn't have the resources to be able to build something 150 metres high or put something 150 metres into the air? What advice would you give them on how to make a compelling experience for visitors?Jerome Giacomoni: I really believe that you have to stick on your roots, okay? I mean that people want authenticity.Jerome Giacomoni: And as you know, we are very keen on balloons, as you can imagine. So we make in our, you know, Paris, it's in Paris where you have the first flight. Yeah. In 1783. Montgolfier, brothers. Yes, with the Montgolfier brothers, with Charles, the scientist. So we really stick on our roots. And I think where you are in Brittany, where you are in Japan, you have to follow your own road and your own path. By feeling what could be the good idea, but also what is your feeling inside you. You need to have something different that you feel very confident with.Andy Povey: Beautiful final thought, Jerome, I like it a lot. So listeners, stay authentic and be passionate.Jerome Giacomoni: Exactly, the right word is passionate.Paul Marden: Next up, let's get some soundbites from the show floor.Rheanna  Sorby: My name's Rheanna. I'm Marketing and Creative Director for the Seasonal Group. We are curators of Christmas magic all year round. Wow, wow.Paul Marden: So you make Christmas special?Rheanna  Sorby: We're the Christmas elves.Paul Marden: Awesome, awesome. I can see you've got such a great set of stands. What have you got here that you're exhibiting for the first time?Rheanna  Sorby: We have Santa's Enchanted Express, which is a three-minute experience that transports customers and guests from a very festive train station to the North Pole in just under three minutes. So it's quite a Christmas miracle. And it also transports on nine pallets. So it's a great return on investment for customers there if it's 24 people on. We also have our elevator experience, which went viral last year. And then we have VR, animatronics, and a lot of our famous items, like the snowman here, just dressed as a little, it's some sort of operator.Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we don't have a lot of luck with lifts at the moment because the team got stuck in a lift yesterday for about 45 minutes. Stop it. We got rescued by the... Well, I didn't get in the lift. I walked because there wasn't enough room. But two of them had to be rescued by the fire brigadeRheanna  Sorby: Okay, so this might be triggering. Well, you know.Paul Marden: Oh, no, I found it hilarious.Paul Marden: I was hugely supportive on the outside, yelling into them.Paul Marden: But Santa won't let me get stuck in a lift today, will he? Absolutely not.Rheanna  Sorby: No, there's an emergency exit. Excellent.Paul Marden: So what's new and innovative then about the Santa Express? What are you bringing to market?Rheanna  Sorby: So a lot of our clients, we sell business to business. They're struggling to get people into shopping centres and we're finding that we need to create retail theatre. So that is something I see as a massive trend moving forward. People want nostalgia. They want an experience, something memorable. But also our customers need a way to return investment as well. So they hopefully will spend something with us and then ticket the experience. So that's something that we're pivoting our business towards. Trying to create a brand new experience every year. A lot of people are struggling nowadays, cost of living.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.Rheanna  Sorby: It's difficult, so we're trying to find a way that brings the Christmas magic to people's doors.Paul Marden: We are, where are we at the moment? We're in September, so we've still got a couple of months left before Christmas 2025, but that must be over for you.Rheanna  Sorby: No, the quality of the street is on the shelves. It's already happening. The install season starts literally on Monday for us. Really? Yes. When we get back, we land and then we start installing.Paul Marden: And so this is the busy time. So let's talk about Christmas 2026. What are the trends that you see coming along at that point?Rheanna  Sorby: Whimsical, whimsical. So we've got Wicked number two coming out. And we've also had all like the Whoville, that sort of style, the Grinch. So imagine pastels, furry trees, things that don't quite make sense, a lot of whimsical wonderland, I would say, trend-wise. But equally immersive experiences and how we can bring magic to you.Paul Marden: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you ever so much. Rheanna, it's been lovely to meet you. Thank you for coming on the podcast. And let's go and visit Santa in his lift, shall we? Yeah, excellent.Paul Marden: And here it is. So we are surrounded by suites in an old-fashioned lift. And there's our doors closed.Paul Marden: Oh, how amazing is this? We're going up.Paul Marden: Ice like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The Great Glass Elevator. This is amazing. We're up over the clouds. Just stunning. There's a train there. I think we're going to follow into the tunnel after the train. Yes.Paul Marden: Got cold, now we're underground. Now we're in the tunnel.Paul Marden: And I think this might be Santa's factory.Paul Marden: Let's get ready.Paul Marden: Merry Christmas. The big man's chair as well. Can I take a seat in the big man's chair? Ho, ho, ho.Sohret Pakis: Hi, Paul. My name is Shorhet Pakis. I'm the brand ambassador for Polin Waterparks.Paul Marden: What are you launching this year at IAAPA? What's new for you?Sohret Pakis:Last year, we have won two big awards for a themed water slide, which is... Stingray it was in Nantes in France and it was something big because you know it was like Europeans best water slide number one and I have a brass ring award winner about two million number one but last night in Porta Ventura Stingray has won the second time best water slide of Europe award. But we have something new about it. Last year when I was telling about Stingray, it was an eight-person slide. This year we have something new. Now the capacity went up to 10, especially when we're talking about all these queue management issues. So that's something wonderful. And also, you ask, what is new? This year, we have something very exciting. A parrot-themed stingray. It's the same slide, but it's parrot-themed.Sohret Pakis: It's coming to Dubai by January. It's going to be open.Paul Marden: So can I ask you, what makes that innovative? What's new about that?Sohret Pakis: Actually, it's a very specifically themed waterslide. You know that POLIN has been pioneer in RTM manufacturing and U-texture. It's kind of a composite material technology which we can make waterslides look.  Look like a character, actually. We are the company who did this first because we said that storytelling is very important. Yes, but you know, slides are just slides. So we just wanted the slides look like the characters in that story. Of course, behind that, there is huge material technology, composites technology, design technologies. Actually, that's the time when we introduced King Cobra years ago. And now with Stingray, we took it much further. So actually, the team looks perfectly like a Stingray, but at the same time, it's a water slide with so many features. It has two big towers and between the towers, there's a bridge. From each tower, two slides start with a very special mist roofing and very special bridge where you can just see what's happening all over the slide.Paul Marden: So the queuing experience is enriched so it doesn't feel quite so long and boring because you can watch what everyone is doing.Sohret Pakis: It is, yes.Paul Marden: Super impressive. So we have been asking everybody to think about what are their predictions for 2026?Sohret Pakis: Everybody is talking about AI. Everybody is talking about immersive. So AI, of course, will make a huge difference in operation, especially.Paul Marden: In what way?Sohret Pakis: Actually, in guest satisfaction, because personalisation is very important in our industry. Whoever comes to the park, they are the heroes at the park. And so actually, if the park can make them feel that they are the heroes, truly— if that's their birthday, if that's their wedding anniversary, so whatever. If the park can make you feel that you're special, and thanks to technology, now it's possible.Paul Marden: Absolutely. That's so interesting. Thank you so much for your insights and for joining us on Skip the Queue. Thank you.Thomas Collin: I'm Thomas, I'm from VEX Solutions, so we are a VR company at the start, and now we're going to the arcade with mixed reality as well. Okay, so that's a nice link. What are you launching here at IAFA? So here for the first time we are introducing VEX Party Dash. The Party Dash is a mixed reality arcade machine. So automated, people can go on it, play on it. You have two huge screens that are really highly interactive. You can walk on the screen, you can touch the screen. The goal is really to make you moving. So that's what we want to do with the Dash.Paul Marden: That's amazing, isn't it? So we're watching people at the moment. You can see lights up on the floor that they're stepping on and on the wall.Thomas Collin: What is really the key aspect of this product is that it's highly attractive. People, they just go around, they stop by it, they want to try it. Actually, we can say, 'Hey, come and try it,' because we watch you, we see you. So we can say, 'Hey, come and try it.' And people stop by, they play it. It's highly immersive, but also highly active. Yes. You're just not standing on an arcade, sitting down. No, you're really moving around. So, this is really good for kids and families. Absolutely. That's what we see.Paul Marden: So, where do you see this being used? What sort of attractions will take this?Thomas Collin: Actually, with this product, it can go either in the attraction side or either at the arcade side. So, you can play it as one game, and you can play a three-minute game like an arcade, or you can actually book for 15 minutes. Since there is not a single game, but multiple games, you can play different games, you can play different levels inside the main gate. So you have a high replayability. Because we want you to come back, we want to attract the gamers, and then make them come back.Paul Marden: 15 minutes with this much activity sounds like quite a tall order. It's a workout.Thomas Collin: It's a workout. It's a workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Peter Cliff: Hi, my name is Pete Cliff. I'm from Conductr. We're here in Barcelona and it's so exciting to be back at IAAPA. Now, what we're super excited about this year is talking about our collaboration with Norwegian Cruise Lines on Great Stirrup Cay. It's their new water park. It's a great project. We're excited to talk to people about it. It's also lovely to be back in Barcelona. It's been, I think, about six years since we were last back here, and it's always one of my favourite European cities for IAPA. It's great to meet with people from the industry, reconnect with old colleagues and friends, and really see what's happening. There's a huge amount of innovation and special projects that are launching all over the show floor. So yeah, great to be back, and can't wait to see what the future of the themed entertainment industry has to offer.Laura Baxter: My name is Laura Baxter. You may know me as the girl with the purple jumpsuit on LinkedIn. I am the head of marketing for Black Gang Shine, but have most recently just announced that I've gone into freelancing and I've launched your CMO.Paul Marden: And I have to say, the jumpsuits work because I was about 50 metres behind you earlier on and I spotted the Your CMO logo on the back of the jumpsuit, so well done for that. We've talked to a lot of suppliers with stands that are exhibiting. From your perspective, this is your first time stepping over to the dark side and coming to an IAPA. What's the experience like for you? What are you here to get out of the show?Laura Baxter: I'd say it's twofold. Mainly it is for networking. Obviously anybody who's anyone in the industry is here. But also, it's inspiration because I want to be able to talk about new and exciting stuff with... Potential clients that I may have and ideas still for Black Gang as well. So, when you walk around show floor, which is just so vibrant and there's so much going on everywhere—you turn, you can draw inspiration from so many of the suppliers here.Paul Marden: What have you seen that's innovative?Laura Baxter: There's a huge amount of stuff being done with tech and it's very interesting because I think that's where a lot of people are going to think that they need to go, because that's the way of the world now, and the next generation don't know life off of a screen and they're expecting to have these incredible digital experiences.Laura Baxter: I'm not convinced that is the way to go. But yes, it's still impressive tech. So for me, there are things that I stand back out and look at and I'm like, 'Whoa, that's really, really cool.'Laura Baxter: I'm not so sure it's potentially what consumers want, though, controversially.Paul Marden: It's really hard, isn't it? Because as a parent of young kids, you want them off the tech as much as you possibly can. But you need a hook. To be able to attract them, don't you? So there's been some amazing stuff here that bridges that gap between the real world and the tech world. So, summer season 2025 is over. What are your predictions about summer 26 and what operators should be thinking about right now?Laura Baxter: It's a really tough market, we all know that. Budgets are tight for households, so there is an awful lot more thought going into their spending and what they're doing and where they're choosing to take that little bit of disposable money that they do have. Therefore actually I don't think next year operators should be thinking about huge innovations or new attractions. I think they need to strip back to basics and nail their customer service. I think guest expectations now are so high. because they're parting with money that is a little bit more precious to them than perhaps if they don't leave at the end of that day having had a good experience they feel ripped off they're going to go straight to review platforms they're going to let it all out and actually you need to be focusing on making sure that every single touch point with that customer is bang on and we're talking pre-visit as well from the your website journey to buying it to the follow-up emails to the pre-visit emails to that first person they meet on front of house to the ride operators to the events team if you have that kind of entertainment on park if you are not nailing your experienceLaura Baxter: You are going to lose out well.Paul Marden: I think we should end it right there. That there is a nugget of gold.Paul Marden: So I am here with co-host Andy Povey and our good friend Josh Haywood from Crealy down in Devon.Josh Haywood: Hello.Paul Marden: It's the end of day two. What have you seen, Josh? What's blown your socks off?Josh Haywood: Good couple of days so far. We're probably into 40,000 steps, which is great. I think technology is the thing that struck me this week so far. Just the small changes that some of the operators and some of the manufacturers are putting into their existing kits. So, for example, I attended a seminar this morning about bowling. and normally temping bowling is temping bowling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now there's augmented reality, and they've got features on the lanes, and it's not about just taking all the pins down, it's taking pin one and six out, and all those things they're trying to do to reinvent older, more traditional attractions, which I think I find really interesting. Yeah. I think some of the seasonality stuff, the Christmas and Halloween stuff has been really good. We sat on a train and went on a journey and the seats rumbled and the sound and the visual effects, they were great.Paul Marden: I saw that. There was no room for me to go and sit on that train. It was amazing.Josh Haywood: I thought that was really good. And, you know, I've been really impressed with generally the show. I think you can get around it all as well. It feels really friendly. I think the sun shining always helps as well. It's not too tough, is it?Paul Marden: I mean, the last time we were in Barcelona, we were all wearing face masks. Absolutely, yes. So it's really refreshing to be back here. And not have that.Josh Haywood: Absolutely. And not have to queue to get in as well. I think that was interesting on the first day.Paul Marden: Oh, did they see you and then just wave you through?Josh Haywood: Red carpet was up for, of course, award-winning theme park and resort. Paul Marden: Mr. Hayward. Did you say award? Winnie and obviously you're on the back of your two awards in the theme park awards last week. How was that? And then we've got some really exciting news from Creeley.Josh Haywood: I saw it at the press this morning. Yes, so a couple of things happened last week. So first of all, we had our anniversary 25 years of Maximus the Coaster. The Vekoma Coaster, 25 years. The first coaster in Devon. It was Devon's first coaster, over half a million riders later. It's done 2 million miles around the track. It's great. So we did a sort of event for that, and we used it to sort of make some announcements about future attractions, which I'll tell you about in a minute. But then we went to the Theme Park Awards last week at Wickste Park, where... We've been the recipients of a few bronze and silvers, and we go being little old us and hope for the best. And then the award I really wanted to win was one of two: the best for families and the best for value. And when the family award came up, they said, 'In bronze is such and such, in silver.' And I was like, 'Well, there you go.' That's all that's left for another year. And then when they said the win at gold was cruelly for best for families, we were delighted. I got a bit emotional about it. I think we would just work so hard over the years to be the best in the Southwest, certainly. And certainly since we put Sootyland in as well. We won the award for Toddlers.Josh Haywood: So it was a double wham. And within 10 minutes as well. It wasn't separated. Within 10 minutes, I just got my breath back from the first one. And then we were up on stage again taking that second award. Oh, it's tough, isn't it? Which was great, yeah. Multi-award winning. Multi-award winning theme parking resort. Devon's finest. Most right in Devon. We're just going to... absolutely bleep the hell out of this for the next 12 months because who knows we may not win it again so we'll just shout from the treetops about this and then we also won thanks to martin rose and rose events uh silver for best entertainment event for the city show It's still very popular, the legacy brand. People love the Sooty show. And as I said at the awards, we sell loads of those puppets. People love a Sooty and a Sweep. So it's been a really good collaboration for us.Paul Marden: We were at our first away day for our Merak team back a few months ago down at Creeley, and I found a little sooty puppet underneath the lectern. I was absolutely chuffed to bits. And there he was, just sitting at the front of the away day, watching everything going on with Sue next to him.Josh Haywood: He's still popular. We understood when we put Cityland in, it wasn't going to be Peppa Pig. world and we didn't think for a minute we'd even sort of get to those heights of Thomas Land at Drayton Manor but it certainly hit a chord with the older market certainly the nannies and the granddads who remember such from when they were kids and you know it's a legacy brand and it works but what we have done really well is sort of corner that market for younger children and toddlers and we Sort of took some comments over the last 12 to 18 months that we may be missing the mark when it comes to the 8 to 12-year-olds, which we were pretty good at five or six years ago. So we've decided this year that we're going to invest in some thrill attractions. So we've just launched news that we've got two new rides going in next year. One, I can't tell you exactly because we're still going under. Got some planning issues, but we're going to have the Southwest tallest ride and the Southwest first inverted ride. So a multi-million pound investment going in and hopefully that will give us another boost that we need to kick on again. We've still got new accommodation going in. We'll still be doing new events and shows for next year.Josh Haywood: So it's going to be a bumper year for Crealy. Absolutely.  I really look forward to that.Paul Marden: I look forward to you being on the launch ride.Paul Marden: Me down on the ground watching and videoing.Josh Haywood: What they have said, which is really interesting, we spoke to an operator, there's only one other ride like it in the UK, and that operator said, whatever you do, make sure when you put the ride in, you fit a hose pipe and a tap right in. Because you may be washing the seats down more than you would usually on your current ride. So, yeah, it certainly will add that next level of ride experience to our family market.Paul Marden: Yeah, I think that's super important, isn't it? Mr. Povey, what have you seen today that has blown your socks off?Andy Povey: I'm really looking for the place to go and get some more soft, comfortable socks. I've walked so much. I've stood around and listened to so many fantastic talks, had so many brilliant conversations. I'm done. My feet hurt. I need to sit down and have a beer.Paul Marden: Well, I hate to break it to you, but there's another day left. And there's still more interviews to do. Still more opportunities for us to get some interesting stories on Skip the Queue.Andy Povey: Look forward to that.Paul Marden: Gentlemen, I think we're about done. So thank you ever so much. It has been a joy. And Mr. Povey, see you back here tomorrow. Josh, wonderful as always.Josh Haywood: Maybe see you at OrlandoPaul Marden: Oh. Absolutely, yeah.Josh Haywood: We'll do it againPaul Marden: Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you liked it, leave a comment in Spotify or Apple Podcasts. If you didn't, let us know on hello@skipthequeue.fm. Today's episode was a team effort for Sami and Emily from Plaster, Steve from Folland Co., as well as Claire and Wenalyn from Skip the Queue HQ. We're back again tomorrow for more fun from IAAPA, including Andreas Andersen from Liseberg, one of Scandinavia's most visited parks. See you all tomorrow. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

In this episode of Skip the Queue, host Paul Marden speaks with Andy Hadden, founder of the Lost Shore Surf Resort in Scotland. Andy shares the remarkable journey from his sporting background and early property career to discovering wave technology in the Basque Country, which inspired him to bring inland surfing to Scotland. Despite starting with no money and no land, Andy raised over £100 million and built one of the world's most advanced inland surf destinations. He explains how Lost Shore Surf Resort combines world-class waves with a strong community focus, sustainability initiatives, and partnerships with schools and universities to deliver real social and economic impact.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  Lost Shore Surf Resort website: https://www.lostshore.com/Andy Hadded on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-hadden-94989a67/Andy Hadden is the founder of Lost Shore Surf Resort, Scotland's first inland surf destination and home to Europe's largest wave pool. Opened in November 2024 near Edinburgh, Lost Shore is the country's largest sports infrastructure project since the Commonwealth Games and now attracts a truly international audience of surfers, families, and brands. With a background in insolvency and investment surveying, Andy led the venture from concept to completion - securing major institutional backing and building a multidisciplinary team to deliver a world-class destination. Long before 'ESG' was a buzzword, he embedded environmental and social value into Lost Shore's DNA, helping set new benchmarks for responsible development. As home to the Surf Lab with Edinburgh Napier University, Lost Shore also serves as a global hub for performance, product R&D, and surf therapy. Live from the show floor, we'll also be joined by:Bakit Baydaliev, CEO/ Cofounder of DOF Roboticshttps://dofrobotics.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/bakitbaydaliev/Hamza Saber, Expert Engineer at TÜV SÜDhttps://www.tuvsud.com/enhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/hamzasaber/David Jungmann, Director of Business Development at Accessohttps://www.accesso.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjungmann/Kristof Van Hove, Tomorrowlandhttps://www.tomorrowland.com/home/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristof-van-hove-2ba3b953/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about attractions and the amazing people who work with them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're coming to you from IAAPA Expo Europe. This is the first of three episodes from the show floor that will come to you over the next three days. Firstly, I'm joined today by Andy Hadden, the founder of Lost Shores Surf Resort.Paul Marden: Andy, tell us a little bit about your journey. You've opened this amazing attraction up there in Scotland where I was on holiday a couple of weeks ago. Tell us a little bit about that attraction. Why this and why in Scotland?Andy Hadden: Well, I grew up locally and I came from more of a sporting family than so much of a business family. My father was the international rugby coach for a while and I played a lot of sport. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Andy Hadden: Yeah, yeah. So we always had this thing about there wasn't enough facilities here in Scotland because Scotland is a place which doesn't necessarily have all the resources and the access to funds and everything else like that. But one thing we noted with, you know, if you created facilities, whether they be good tennis facilities, good 4G football pitches, whatever it was. It allowed the environment around it to prosper, the communities around it to prosper. And, of course, I was a charter surveyor by trade, so I worked in insolvency and then in investment. So I sold two sites to that market. Andy Hadden: But I always surfed. I always surfed. So whilst I was down in Birmingham in England, when I actually got an email in 2012 talking about some, you know, some surfy thing that might have been happening in Bristol, I called the head of destination consulting up and I said, 'this sounds like nonsense, to be honest', because I surf and you can't really be talking about real surfing waves here. It's got to be something, you know, different. He said, 'No, no, there's these guys in the Basque country.' So I took a flight over there and that day changed everything for me. Paul Marden: So what was it that you saw? Andy Hadden: I went to see what was back then a secret test facility in the mountains of the Basque Country. It was very cloak and dagger. I had to follow the guide and give me the email address. I found this all very exciting. When I went and actually saw this facility, I realised that for the decade before that, there'd been all these amazing minds, engineers and surfers working on what they believed could be, you know, a big future of not just the inland surfing movement that's now burgeoning into a multi-billion dollar global movement, but it could really affect surfing. And if it was going to affect surfing as a sport, and it's now an Olympic sport because of these facilities, they wanted to make sure that it was a very accessible piece of kit. So surfing, it could affect surfing if ran by the right people in the right ways and really communicate that stoke of the sport to the masses.Paul Marden: So what is it that you've built in Edinburgh then? Tell me a little bit about it.Andy Hadden: So we've delivered a wave garden cove, which is a 52-module wave garden, which is about the size of three football pitches, and it can run hundreds of waves an hour, touch of a button and it can run in skiing parlance anything from green runs right through to sort of black powder runs. And the beauty of it is you can have people that are the better surfers out the back and just like at the beach at the front you've got their kids and learning how to surf on the white water. So we're finding it to be a really amazing experience— not just for surfers who are obviously flocking to us, but already here in Scotland, eight months in, tens of thousands of new surfers are all coming back and just going, 'Wow, we've got this thing on our doorstep.' This is blowing our minds, you know. Paul Marden: Wowzers, wowzers. Look, I'm guessing that the infrastructure and the technology that you need to be able to create this kind of inland wave centre is key to what you're doing. That you've got to access some funds, I guess, to be able to do this. This is not a cheap thing for you to be able to put together, surely.Andy Hadden: Yeah, correct. I mean, you know, I have questioned my own sanity at times. But when I started 10 years ago, I had no money and no land. But I did have some property expertise and I wanted to do it in Edinburgh, a close-up place that I cared about. So we have excellent networks. For a few years, you know. Whilst we've ended up raising over  £100 million in structured finance from a standing start, it took me a couple of years just to raise £40,000. And then I used that to do some quite bizarre things like flying everyone that I cared about, you know, whether they were from the surf community or... Community stakeholders, politicians, and everyone over to the test facility to see themselves— what I could see to sort of—well, is it? Am I just getting carried away here? Or is there something in this? And then, on top of that, you know, we sponsored the world's first PhD in surf therapy with that first $5,000. So now we have a doctor in surf therapy who now takes me around the world to California and all these places. How does business actually really genuinely care about, you know, giving back? And I'm like, yeah, because we said we're going to do this once.Andy Hadden: We got to do it right. And it took us a decade. But yeah, we raised the money and we're very happy to be open.Paul Marden: So I mentioned a minute ago, I was holidaying in Scotland. I bookended Edinburgh— both sides of the holiday. And then I was in Sky for a few days as well. There's something about Edinburgh at the moment. There is a real energy. Coming up as a tourist, there was way too much for me to be able to do. It seems to be a real destination at the moment for people.Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, I think, coming from the background I came from, if I knew I was going to deliver a surfing park in the edge of Edinburgh, I then wanted to do it in the least risky way possible. So to do that, I felt land ownership was key and three business plans was also very key. Edinburgh's in need of accommodation regardless, and Edinburgh's also in need of good places, a good F&B for friends and family just to go and hang out on the weekends. And then, of course, you have the surfing, and we've got a big wellness aspect too. We also sit next to Europe's largest indoor climbing arena. And we're obviously very well connected in the centre of Scotland to both Edinburgh and Scotland. So, so many things to do. So, yeah, I mean, the Scottish tourism landscape has always been good, but it's just getting better and better as we see this as a future-proof marketplace up here. You know, we're not building ships anymore.Andy Hadden: Well, in fact, we got a contract the other week to build one, so maybe that's wrong. But the point is, we see it as a very future-proof place because the Americans are flagging, the Europeans are flagging, and they just want to feel like they're part of something very Scottish. And that's what we've tried to do in our own special way.Paul Marden: And when you think of coming to Scotland, of course, you think about surfing, don't you? Andy Hadden: Yes, who knows. Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. Look, you had some recent high-profile support from Jason Connery, the son of the late James Bond actor Sean Connery. How did that come about?Andy Hadden: Well, I think we've got, there's a real Scottish spirit of entrepreneurialism that goes back, you know, probably right the way through to the Enlightenment where, you know, I'm sure. I'm sure a lot of you know how many inventions came from Scotland. And this is, you know, televisions, telephones, penicillin. I mean, just the list goes on.Andy Hadden: Of course, you know, that was a long, long time ago, but we still feel a lot of pride in that. But there seems to be a lot of people who've had success in our country, like someone like Sir Sean Connery. These guys are still very proud of that. So when they see something— very entrepreneurial— where we're using a lot of local businesses to create something bigger than the sum of its parts. And to do it truly— not just to be a profitable private business, which is what it is, but to give back 18 million into local economy every year, to work with schools in terms of getting into curriculums. We've got Surf Lab. We work with universities, charities, and so on. They really want to support this stuff. So we have over 50 shareholders, and they've each invested probably for slightly different reasons. They all have to know that their money is a good bet, but I think they all want to feel like they're part of creating a recipe. For a surf resort, which we believe there'll be hundreds of around the world in the next few years. And we can create that recipe here in Scotland. That's hopefully another example of Scottish innovation and entrepreneurialism.Paul Marden: So you've got the test bed that happened in the Basque Country. You've got Scotland now. Are there surf resorts like this elsewhere in the world?Andy Hadden: Yeah, there are eight other open in the world. There's actually, there's various technologies. So there's about 25 different surf parks open at the moment. But there's... doesn't under construction. Pharrell Williams has just opened one in Virginia Beach a few weeks ago there in America. And what the equity, I think, is looking at quite rightly, the big equity, you know, the type that go right, if this really is a, you know, kind of top golfing steroids in that property developers can look at them as.Andy Hadden: You know, excellent ways to get through their more standardised property place, residential, office, industrial. Usually they have to do that in a kind of loss-leading way. But if you look at this as a leisure attraction, which councils and cities actually want because of the benefits, and it makes you money, and it increases the prices of your residential around it. I think developers are starting to realise there's a sweet spot there. So the equity, the big equity, I think, is about to drop in this market over the next couple of years. And it's just waiting for the data set to enable them to do that.Paul Marden: Wow. I guess there's an environmental impact to the work that you do, trying to create any big... a big project like this is going to have some sort of environmental impact. You've put in place an environmental sustainability strategy before it was mainstream as it is now. Tell us some of the things that you've put in place to try to address that environmental impact of what you're doing.Andy Hadden: Well, we're in a disused quarry. So it was a brownfield site. So already just by building on it and creating an immunity, we're also adding to the biodiversity of that site. And we're obviously there's no escaping the fact that we're a user of energy. There's just no escaping that. So the reality is we've got as much sustainable energy use as we can from air source heat pumps to solar. And we're looking at a solar project. So it becomes completely self-sustaining. But we also, the electricity we do access from the grid is through a green tariff. But you'll see a lot of the resorts around the world, this is going to become the sort of, the main play is to become sort of sustainable in that sense. Where we really fly is with the S and ESG. And like you say, the reason we were the world's first institutionally backed wave park, of course, we like to think it was purely down to our financials. But the reality is, they started saying, 'Wow, you're as authentic an ESG company as we've come across.'Andy Hadden: And it's the same with our mission-based national bank. So, because we didn't really know what that meant, we just knew it was the right thing to do. So we fit squarely into that ESG category, which I know is a tick box for a lot of funds, let's face it. There's a lot of them that really want to do that. There's a lot of investors out there that want to do it. But let's understand our place in the system, which is we're really market leading in that area. And I think that's very attractive for a lot of funds out there. But the S in ESG is where we really fly with all the work we're doing socially around the site.Paul Marden: So talk to me a little bit about that. How are you addressing that kind of the social responsibility piece?Andy Hadden: Well, two examples would be we're not just looking at schools to come here to surf. That's an obvious one. They'll go to any attraction to surf if you could go to Laser Quest, go up to visit the castle, do whatever. But we reverse engineered it. We got schools coordinated to go around the headmasters and the schools and say, 'Well, Look, you're all teaching STEM, science, technology, engineering, maths, for 9 to 13-year-olds. And you're all looking for outdoor learning now, which is definitely a big part of the future in education in general. Can you allow us to create some modules here? So we've got six modules that actually fit into that STEM strategy. For instance, last week, there was a school in learning physics, but they were using surf wax on a surfboard friction.Paul Marden: Amazing.Andy Hadden: So these kids so it works for schools and headmasters which is very important and for parents and it obviously works for the kids and they love it and the reason we do that and we give that it's all at discounted low times and everything is because it's a numbers game they come back at the weekend and so on so that's example one and another would be we've created a surf lab with Napier University, a higher education. So we sponsored the world's first doctor. It got a PhD in surf therapy, but then the university was like, 'hold on a minute, you know, this is good marketing for us as well'.Andy Hadden: This surf lab, which has the infrastructure to host great competitions, but also PhD students can come down and learn engineering. They can learn sustainable energy. So we've got more PhD students working there. And this higher university collaboration has not only led to Alder kids coming down but other universities in the area are now what can we do with lost shore now that's cool and fun so we're working with the other universities in town too so that's a couple of examples alongside the standard, employing local people and actually having the economics of putting money into the local economy.Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it? Because... So for many people, ESG, and especially the social responsibility piece, feels a little bit worthy. It feels an altruistic move for the organisation to go and do those things. But you've hit on the quid pro quo what do you get back for doing all of this stuff well you're bringing in these kids you're enriching their learning, you're helping them to learn valuable skills but you're also giving them a taster of what life is like at the the resort and seeing the benefit of the return visits that flow from that is crazy.Andy Hadden: You know, I like to think we've fought as hard as anyone to ingrain this stuff in your DNA because we're year one. And of course, we have our cash flow difficulties like everyone does. You know, you don't know how to... run the place for the first three months or that's what it feels like even though you've done all this preparation and so on and so forth but at no point does anyone turn around and go let's get rid of the schools program let's get rid of the university partnership and that's why i think it's very important to build it into your dna because it doesn't have to be this zero-sum game that people attribute you know or we're giving here so that means we have to take over here it's like there's cute ways to do everything you can do the right thing but also drive traffic for your business and it's very good right. It's good reputation, because the people that stay there, when they see that we're doing this stuff, they feel like they're part of it, and then they want to book again. So I believe it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, but it is a different way of creating a business— that's for sure.Paul Marden: For sure. So there's going to be a listener out there, I'm sure, with a crazy idea like you had a few years ago. What advice would you give for somebody just starting out thinking of opening a business in the leisure and attraction sector?Andy Hadden: I would just try your best to make it as simple as possible. I think it was Yves Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia, who said, 'One of the hardest things in life is to make it simple. It's so easy to make it complex.' And when you're dealing with a business plan, it's very exciting, right? Well, what if we get into this market? What if we do this? And splitting it all into those components. I think arm yourself with very good people around you. They don't even have to be part of the company. If you've been a good person in your life, I'm sure you've got friends who you can tap into. Everyone knows an architect. Everyone knows an accountant. Everyone knows a lawyer. You're a friend of a friend. Andy Hadden: And I think just overload yourself with as much information to get you to the point where you can be assertive with your own decisions. Because at the end of the day, it's going to come down to you making your own decisions. And if you've got a very clear path of what success and failure looks like, understanding that it ain't going to look like your business plan. As long as it's got the broad shapes of where you want to go, it can get you out of bed every day to try and make things happen. So, yeah, just go for it. Really, that's it.Paul Marden: See where it takes you. So look, in the world of themed entertainment, we talk a lot about IP and storytelling and creating magical experiences. Are any of these concepts relevant to a destination like yours?Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, you know, technically, from an IP perspective, you know, we're using the WaveGround Cove technology. You know, we've purchased that. So from a strictly business perspective, you know, we have access to their sort of IP in that sense and we deliver that. But I think for us, the IP is the destination. It's so unique, it's so big that it becomes defendable at scale. So it does sound like a bit of an all-in poker hand. But it would be more risky to go half in because these things are very hard to build. But when they are built, they're also very hard to compete with. So as long as your customer experience is good enough. You're going to maintain a kind of exclusivity in your locality for long into the future. So, yeah, there's obviously IP issues in terms of technologies. But for us, it was all about creating a destination with three business plans that's greater than the sum of its parts. And if we can do that in our location, then it's very hard to compete against, I would say.Paul Marden: Andy, it sounds like such an exciting journey that you've been on. And one year in, that journey has still got a long way to play out, doesn't it? You must be on quite the rollercoaster. Well, surfing quite a wave at the moment, if I don't mix my metaphors so badly.Andy Hadden: Yeah, we're just entering maybe the penultimate phase of the sort of 20-year plan. You know, we've gone through our early stages, our fundraising, our construction. We've gone through the very hard sort of like getting the team together and opening year one. And we're just starting to go, 'OK, we understand we've got data now'. We understand how to run this place now. So I think we now want to push through to stabilise the next two or three years. And then hopefully we've got a lot of irons in the fire globally as well. Hopefully we can go to the next phase, but we'll see what happens. Worst case scenario, I just surf a bit more and try and enjoy my lot.Paul Marden: Well, Andy, it's been lovely talking to you. I've been really interested to hear what you've been up to. This was only a short snippet of an interview. I reckon there's some more stories for you to tell once you're into year two. So I'd love for you to come back and we'll do a full-on interview once you've got year two under your belt. How's that sound to you?Andy Hadden: Absolutely, Paul, and thanks very much for the platform.Paul Marden: Next up, let's hear from some of the exhibitors on the floor. Bakit.Paul Marden: Introduce yourself for me, please, and tell me a little bit about where you're from.Bakit Baydaliev: We have two companies located in Turkey, Istanbul, and Los Angeles, USA. We develop attractions, equipment, but not just equipment— also software, AI, and content, games, and movies. Paul Marden: Oh, wow. So you're here at IAPA. This is my very first morning of my very first IAAPA. So it's all very overwhelming for me. Tell me, what is it that you're launching at IAAPA today?Bakit Baydaliev: Today we're launching our bestseller, Hurricane. It's a coaster simulator. In addition to that, we're also launching a special immersive tunnel, Mars Odyssey. We're sending people to Mars, we're sending people to space, and the story, of course, may change. After you install the attractions, you always can create different kinds of content for this attraction. It's completely immersive and what is very unique for this attraction is edutainment. Theme parks, science centres, space centres, and museums all benefit from it. It's not just to show and entertain, but also educate and provide a lot of useful information for people. Paul Marden: So what would you say is unique about this? Bakit Baydaliev: There are several factors. First of all, it's equipment. We have a very special software that amazingly synchronizes with the content and it doesn't create motion sickness at all. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Bakit Baydaliev: This is very important. Independently on the speeds, which is... We have very high speeds in our simulators. In addition to that, we have special effects, unusual effects, which feel like cold, heat, sounds.Paul Marden: So it is truly 4D, isn't it?Bakit Baydaliev: Completely. In addition to that, it's interactive content. It's not just the content which you can sit and... watch and entertain yourself and get a lot of useful information, but also you can interact. You can play games, you can shoot, you can interact. And of course, the most important thing which makes this attraction innovative is the educational aspect.Paul Marden: I find that really interesting that you could see this ride at a theme park, but similarly you can see it as an educational exhibit at a science centre or space centre. I think that's very interesting.Bakit Baydaliev: Very, very. Especially, you know, the standard experience for space centres, science centres, and especially museums, it's just walking around, touch some stuff. Some you may not even touch it. It's exponents which you can watch, you can read, it's very nice. But it's even better when you let people live it in real with a nice simulation atmosphere environment, like immersive tunnel.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Bekit, thank you so much for joining us on Skip the Queue, and I look forward to enjoying one of the rides.Bakit Baydaliev: Please ride, and you will be amazed.Hamza Saber: My name is Hamza. I work for TÜV SUD Germany. Our main job is to make sure attractions are safe, parks are safe. We do everything from design review to initial examination of rides, to yearly checks and making sure that we push the standards and the norm to the next level and cover everything that comes in new in the industry as well to make sure this industry stays safe and enjoyable for people. Paul Marden: It's so important though, isn't it? At an event like this, you don't have a sexy stand with lots of really cool rides to experience, but what you do is super important.Hamza Saber: Yes, I guess it's not one of the big colourful booths, but it's at the heart of this industry. It's in the background. If you look at the program for the education, there is a lot of safety talks. There is a lot of small groups talking about safety, trying to harmonise norms as well. Because if you look at the world right now, we have the EN standards. We have the American standards and we're working right now to try to bring them closer together so it's as easy and safe and clear for all manufacturers and operators to understand what they need to do to make sure that their guests are safe at the end of the day.Paul Marden: So Hamza, there's some really cool tech that you've got on the stand that's something new that you've brought to the stand today. So tell us a little bit about that.Hamza Saber: So as you can see, we have one of the drones right here and the video behind you. So we're trying to include new technologies to make it easier, faster, and more reliable to do checks on big structures like this or those massive buildings that you usually see. You can get really, really close with the new technologies, the drones with the 4K cameras, you can get very, very precise. We're also working on AI to train it to start getting the first round of inspections done using AI. And just our expert to focus on the most important and critical aspects. So we're just going to make it faster, more reliable.Paul Marden: So I guess if you've got the drone, that means you don't have to walk the entire ride and expect it by eye?Hamza Saber: No, we still have to climb. So what we do is more preventive using the drones. So the drones, especially with the operators, they can start using them. And if they notice something that does not fit there, we can go and look at it. But the actual yearly inspections that are accepted by the governments, you still need to climb, you still need to check it yourself. So the technology is not right there yet, but hopefully we're going to get there. Paul Marden: We're a long way away from the robots coming and taking the safety engineer's job then. Hamza Saber: Yes, exactly. And they don't think they're going to come take our jobs anytime soon. Using technology hands-in-hands with our expertise, that's the future.Paul Marden: It must be so exciting for you guys because you have to get involved in all of these projects. So you get to see the absolute tippy top trends as they're coming towards you.Hamza Saber: Yeah, for sure. Like we're always three years before the public knowledge. So it's exciting to be behind the scene a little bit and knowing what's going on. We're seeing some really fun and creative ideas using AI to push the attractions industry to the next level. So I'm excited to see any new rides that will be published or announced at some point this week.Paul Marden: Very cool. Look, Hamza, it's been lovely to meet you. Thanks for coming on Skip the Queue.Hamza Saber: Yeah, thank you so much.Kristof Van Hove: My name is Kristof. I live in Belgium. I'm working for the Tomorrowland group already now for three years, especially on the leisure part.Paul Marden: Tell listeners a little bit about Tomorrowland because many of our listeners are attraction owners and operators. They may not be familiar with Tomorrowland.Kristof Van Hove: Yeah, so Tomorrowland is already 20 years, I think, one of the number one festivals in the world. Actually, already for the last years, always the number one in the world. And what makes us special is that we are not just a festival, but we are a community. We create. special occasions for people and it starts from the moment that they buy their tickets till the festival we make a special feeling that people like and I think we create a world and each year we work very hard on new team that goes very deep so not only making a festival but we go very deep in our branding not only with our main stage but we also make a book about it we make gadgets about it so it's a completely.Paul Marden:  Wow. Help listeners to understand what it is that you're doing new here at the moment. You're blending that festival experience, aren't you, into attractions.Kristof Van Hove: Yeah, that's right. So because we are already 20 years on the market building IP, the more and more we really are able to create a complete experience, not only the IP as a brand, but also all the things around it. We have our own furniture. We have our own plates. We create actually all elements that are needed to build a leisure industry project. And that makes it magnificent. I think we are capable now, with everything that we do in-house, to set up and to facilitate water park and attraction park projects completely. Paul Marden: So, have you got any attractions that are open at the moment? Kristof Van Hove: Well, we have the Ride to Happiness, of course, the coaster that is built in Plopsaland three years ago. That is already now for five years the number one steel coaster in Europe and the fifth steel coaster in the world. So this is a project we are very proud of. Besides that, we have already a lot of immersive experiences. And we are constructing now a secret project that will be announced in the beginning of next year somewhere in Europe.Paul Marden: Give us a little sneak peek what that might look like.Kristof Van Hove: It's not that far from here. Okay, okay, excellent. So it's more an outdoor day project that we are constructing. That for sure will be something unique. Excellent.Paul Marden: So look, you're already planning into 2026. Help listeners to understand what the future might look like. What trends are you seeing in the sector for next year?Kristof Van Hove: Well, I think more and more the people expect that they get completely a deep dive into branding. I don't think that people still want to go to non-IP branded areas. They want to have the complete package from the moment that they enter. They want to be immersed. With everything around it, and they want a kind of a surrounding, and they want to have the feeling that they are a bit out of their normal life, and a deep dive in a new environment. And I think this is something that we try to accomplish. Paul Marden: Wow.David Jungmann: David Jungman, I'm the Director of Business Development here at Accesso, based in Germany. I'm super excited to be here at IAPA in Barcelona. We're exhibiting our whole range of solutions from ticketing to point of sale to virtual queuing to mobile apps. And one of the features we're calling out today is our Accesso Pay 3.0 checkout flow, which streamlines donations, ticket insurance, relevant payment types by region on a single simple one-click checkout page.Paul Marden: What impact does that have on customers when they're presented with that simple one-click checkout?David Jungmann: Well, as you guys know, conversion rate is super important. The number of clicks in an e-commerce environment is super important. And because we're at IAAPA Europe, we've got guests here from all over Europe. Different regions require different payment types. And it's important to not overload a checkout page with like eight different types for, let's say, German guests, Dutch guests, Belgium guests, is to be able to only offer what's relevant and to keep it short and sweet. And then rolling in additional features like donations, ticket insurance and gift cards, stuff like that.Paul Marden: Amazing. So get your crystal ball out and think about what the world in 2026 is going to be like.David Jungmann: I think this year was a little bit soft in terms of performance for the parks, certainly in Europe, what we've seen. I think what that will mean is that maybe some will consider, you know, really big capex investments. But what that also means is they will get creative. So I envision a world where, instead of buying new protocols for 20 million, maybe some operators will start thinking about how can we make more out of what we've got with less, right? How can we be really creative? And I think there's a lot to uncover next year for us to see.Paul Marden:  Sweating their assets maybe to be able to extend what they do without that big CapEx project.David Jungmann:  Yes, how can we keep innovating? How can we keep our experience fresh? Without just buying something very expensive straight away. And I think that's what we see.Paul Marden: What is going to be innovating for Xesso and the market that you serve?David Jungmann: Well, for us, it's really about that streamlined, consistent guest experience, but also tying into things like immersive experiences, right, where you could maybe change the overlay of an attraction and feed in personalised information that you have for your visitors and collect it during you know the booking flow when they enter the venue and feeding that into the actual experience i think that's something i'm excited about.Paul Marden: I think that there is a missed opportunity by so many attractions. There's so much data that we build and we collect the data, but oftentimes we don't bring it together into a central place and then figure out the ways in which we want to use it. There's so much more you can do with that rich data, isn't there?David Jungmann: 100% exactly. And I don't just mean from a marketing perspective. I mean from an actual experience perspective. Let's say you ride through Dark Ride and all of a sudden your name pops up or your favorite character pops up and waves hello to you. That's the type of stuff you want to do, not just market the hell out of it.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Look, David, it's been so good to meet you. Thank you ever so much. And yeah, thank you for joining Skip the Queue. David Jungmann: Thanks, Paul. Have a great day at the show. Paul Marden: Isn't it great? I mean, we have got such an amazing job, haven't we? To be able to come to a place like this and be able to call this work.David Jungmann: Absolute privilege. Yes, absolutely.Paul Marden: Now, before we wrap up, Andy and I wanted to have a little chat about what we've seen today and what we've enjoyed. Why don't we sit down? You have clearly returned to your tribe. Is there a person in this place that doesn't actually know you?Andy Povey: There's loads. I've been doing the same thing for 30 years. Paul Marden: Yeah, this ain't your first radio, is it? Andy Povey: I'm big and I'm loud, so I'd stand out in a crowd. I mean, there are all fantastic things that I should put on my CV. But this is really where I feel at home. This industry continues to blow me away. We're here, we're talking to competitors, we're talking to potential customers, we're talking to previous customers, we're talking to people that we've worked with, and it's just all so friendly and so personally connected. I love it.Paul Marden: It has been awesome. I've really enjoyed it. Although I'm beginning to get into the Barry White territory of my voice because it's quite loud on the show floor, isn't it? Andy Povey: It is. It's actually quieter than previous shows, so I don't know why, and I don't know whether... Maybe I'm just getting old and my hearing's not working quite so well, but... You used to walk out of the show and you could almost feel your ears relax as they just stopped hearing and being assaulted, I suppose, by machines pinging and blowing.Paul Marden: It really is an assault on the senses, but in the very best way possible. Andy Povey: Absolutely, absolutely. I feel like a child. You're walking around the show, you're going, 'Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.' Paul Marden: So what has been your highlight? Andy Povey: Do you know, I don't think I could give you one. It really is all of the conversations, the connections, the people you didn't know that you hadn't spoken to for two years.Paul Marden: So for me, my highlight, there was a ride that I went on, Doff Robotics.Andy Povey: I've seen that, man.Paul Marden: So it was amazing. I thought I was going to be feeling really, really sick and that I wouldn't enjoy it, but it was amazing. So I had Emily with the camera in front of me. And within 10 seconds, I forgot that I was being recorded and that she was there. I was completely immersed in it. And I came off it afterwards feeling no motion sickness at all and just having had a real good giggle all the way through. I was grinning like, you know, the Cheshire Cat. Andy Povey: A grinning thing. Paul Marden: Yeah. So, tomorrow, what are you looking forward to?Andy Povey:  It's more of the same. It really is. There's going to be some sore heads after tonight's party at Tribodabo. We're all hoping the rain holds off long enough for it to be a great experience. But more of the same.Paul Marden: Well, let's meet back again tomorrow, shall we? Andy Povey: Completely. Paul Marden: Let's make a date.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to today's episode from IAAPA Expo Europe. As always, if you've loved today's episode, like it and comment in your podcast app. If you didn't like it, let us know at hello@skipthequeue.fm. Show notes and links can also be found on our website, skipthequeue.fm. Thanks to our amazing team, Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle from Plaster Creative Communications, Steve Folland from Folland Co., and our amazing podcast producer, Wenalyn Dionaldo. Come back again tomorrow for more show news. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

We've well and truly kicked off season 7 in style as we welcome our first guest onto the show - IAAPA Board Chairman, Massimiliano Freddi. In this episode, Paul sits down with Massimiliano Freddi, the first Italian to ever hold the role of IAAPA Chairman in the association's 107-year history. From his early dream of running a theme park to founding Wonderwood and shaping Italy's unique attractions landscape, Massi shares how passion, storytelling, and a people-first mindset continue to drive his vision for the industry. Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we're announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn, or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 24th September 2025. The winner will be contacted via LinkedIn or Bluesky. Show references:  https://iaapa.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/freddi/Massimiliano Freddi  a leading figure in the amusement and entertainment industry, has been appointed president of the steering committee of IAAPA (International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions, the leading international association for attractions and theme parks) for 2025. This is the first time since the foundation of the World Association of Attractions (1918) that this position has been entrusted to an Italian.The appointment underscores his extensive experience and significant contribution to the global industry. Freddi brings a wealth of experience gained at some of the industry's most prominent companies. His career began in marketing and press office for the Italian market at Disneyland Paris. He subsequently joined Leolandia.A visionary entrepreneur, in 2018, Massimiliano Freddi founded Wonderwood, an adventure and amusement park for all ages, of which he is currently CEO, in his hometown of Trarego Viggiona, in the Verbano-Cusio-Ossola region on Lake Maggiore. This growing business has redeveloped several local facilities and provided employment to several young residents of the small towns in the area. His passion for the sector also extends to academia. Since 2016, he has been a member of the coaching staff of Seth Godin's Altmba and is a professor of marketing and experience design at IULM University in Milan. At the same university, where Italy's first course in theme park and attraction management was introduced, he teaches subjects such as consumer experience, marketing, and soft skills as an adjunct professor. Freddi was also one of the original founders of Parksmania, the first newspaper dedicated to amusement parks.Freddi will continue to bring his innovative vision and deep industry knowledge to the global association, helping shape the future of attractions internationally. Regarding Italy, he commented that he sees great potential and wants to help realise it. Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden, along with my co-hosts Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. Paul Marden: Today on Skip the Queue, I'm joined by someone who has been shaping the attractions industry in truly remarkable ways. Massimiliano Freddi is the first Italian ever to hold the role of chairman in IAAPA's 107-year history. A milestone that not only celebrates his career, but also shines a light on Italy's growing influence in the global attractions landscape. Massimiliano has worn many hats across his journey, from fulfilling his childhood dream of becoming a Theme Park Managing Director at just 28, where he grew guest numbers from 300,000 to over 800,000, to founding his own destinations like Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore and Wonderwood Spina Verde, overlooking Lake Como. Along the way, he's pioneered inclusive and eco-conscious practices, championing the power of storytelling and shown how attractions can thrive by creating meaningful experiences for every guest.Paul Marden: Beyond his leadership roles, Massimiliano is also a Professor of Marketing and Experience Design at IULM University in Milan, where he's passionate about nurturing the next generation of talent in our sector. Often described as both a dreamer and a doer, he brings together vision and practicality in a way that continues to inspire operators around the world.Paul Marden: Massimilliano, welcome to the show. It really is a pleasure to have you with us. We always start Skip the Queue and the kickoff of season seven, no less, is going to be no different. We always start with an icebreaker question. And I'm thinking back to, we're just back off of our summer holidays, aren't we? For your perfect holiday, would it start with planes, trains or driving.Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, that's a beautiful question. By the way, congratulations because you've pronounced Massimiliano in a very correct way. So that's unusual. I have a complicated name. I know, I know.Massimiliano Freddi: Hey, I would say train. Train is really, really part of the way that I love to travel with. And unfortunately, too often it happens by car, which I like a little bit less. I get dizzy, you know, and stuff. Train is my ultimate, ultimate way to travel.Paul Marden: I did a sleeper train to Scotland a couple of years ago, and it was amazing. I absolutely loved it. And what's brilliant is there's more of those sleeper trains hitting Europe, aren't there now? So there really is very few excuses for us not to be holidaying with the start with some elegant sleeper train. My only disappointment was that there was no murder on the train, so I couldn't have an Agatha Christie style novel themed around my train  journey, but uh, you know.Massimiliano Freddi: I mean, I mean, it could have been the Hogwarts Express, but apparently, it doesn't run every day, so.Paul Marden: That would be pretty cool as well. I've just come back from Edinburgh, actually, and we saw, you know, the viaduct where the train goes to Hogwarts, and completely unplanned, there was a steam train that went over the bridge whilst we were there. It was amazing.Massimiliano Freddi: Happy go lucky.Paul Marden: Yeah. So enough of my holidays. Let's kick off talking about you and IAAPA. What can international markets learn from attractions in Italy? Tell us a little bit about the attractions landscape over there in Italy at the moment.Massimiliano Freddi: Yes. So let's say that the attraction landscape is very similar, somehow, to how the restaurants or the retail landscape has always been, which means a lot of mom and pop stores. And I think that what people who travel to Italy love is to find something that is one of a kind that you can find only in Italy. I have a deep respect for Starbucks, but I'm always... questioning myself, you know, when somebody comes to Italy, do they really want to find Starbucks? Is this a real thing? So when it comes to parks and attractions, Italy has not faced a big concentration in players like it has happened in other countries. Of course, some big players are there. Parques Reunidos owns Mirabilandia, which is the second most important Italian park. And the most important Italian park is Gardaland, owned by Merlin Entertainment. Then we have a few other groups. Owning and operating some of the facilities, but let's say that, out of 250 parks between—or, you said, attractions— that's very correct now, if we talk about attractions, now the number is endless, because where is the border?Paul Marden: What is an attraction? Yeah, that's a big philosophical question.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, okay, so let's say that, once upon a time, we used to count parks. So when we talk about parks, we have roughly 250 parks in Italy, and most of them are tiny, tiny, tiny, and they are independently owned. That's my case. I own and operate two parks right now, and I'm about to open, a third location that will be an indoor one this November. And so, yes, I think that what what others can learn from Italy i think is to keep this respect for your roots and to make sure that you don't make every attraction look like another one, but you kind of keep it, you know, different.Massimiliano Freddi: And so it's a matter of the mix of how people can have fun and get entertained. But it's really also about retail and about food and about shows and festivals and you name it, you know. So there are these places that we see on Instagram and immediately we say, oh, that's, I mean, when I see a picture of the Empire State Building or of the Tower Bridge. I know immediately where it belongs to. And so I think that, with attractions, we need to think in the future always about this. Guests coming to visit us, they want to have the ultimate experience and they want to have something that's different from anything they've done before. So this is the responsibility we have.Paul Marden: And a big one it is. Let's talk a little bit about the experience economy. And especially when we think about, you know, beyond the parks, there's this... massive ecosystem around the outside of different ways that people can enjoy themselves. What does that experience economy mean to you, especially in Italy?Massimiliano Freddi: The experience economy, first of all, it truly matters to me, the book. Because in 1999, it was once upon a time, it was really difficult to find literature and scientific literature on the leisure industry. And so I think that at that time, we thought that everybody could take inspiration from the attractions industry. And it has happened because right now. Yes, definitely. You know, food is experience and travel is experience and lodging is experience. You name it, you name it. You know, even there is also a funeral house in Italy, which has become very famous because they are really based on the experience they will give, you know, not to the people who passed away, unfortunately, you know, but the people remain. So I think that it's very hard now to find an industry that doesn't think, that we are in the experience economy and that everything should be experienced and experiential. And so I think that when I go back to my example, I think that we as attractions, we need to be even more wise in how we choose to present ourselves and what we cater to our guests.Massimiliano Freddi: Because of course, we need to raise the bar. So right now, we know that some access... And some services to our attractions have become better with technology. But still, we are, you know, long lines sometimes. And we feel we are paying too much for what we are getting back.Massimiliano Freddi: I would say that in the end, experience economy starts with people and ends with people. And so we need to be people-centric. And only like this, we can be truly experiential. I don't think that an experience is about technology.  It's always, always about people.Paul Marden: Absolutely. I wonder as well, I'm always struck by this industry, how close we are, how we collaborate with one another. And really, the competition aren't the other parks or attractions. The competition is getting people out and doing something. There are so many things at home that could keep you at home, getting you out and about and visiting places and enjoying those experiences. I wonder whether collaboration is the answer to this.Massimiliano Freddi: I think you nailed it because it's crucial. Everybody who has not been working for this industry, when they enter the industry, because they might change jobs, everybody is so surprised that we collaborate so heavily. And I think that a key to this success has always been this big collaboration. I have almost always in my career been part of smaller facilities. And to me, IAAPA and the associations were, it's been crucial, you know, because you are alone. Very, very often your facility is in the middle of nowhere. No matter if you're part of a big group, because even big groups have facilities in the middle of nowhere, but for family-owned and operated attractions, that's almost the golden rule.Massimiliano Freddi: And so there are so many days in your life, in your career, in your profession, where you would benefit strongly from talking to somebody else who's been through something like you before and who's found a different solution and who can open up your eyes. So I think that's the beauty of our industries is getting together. Again, if we don't get together, how can we make people get together?Paul Marden: Yeah, I'm very excited about getting together because I've got my first IAAPA in Barcelona coming up. And I'm very excited about what this is going to be like.Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, you will be blown away.Paul Marden:  I can't wait. I absolutely can't wait. Now, look. Someone has once described you as a dreamer and a doer. One of your dreams was to be managing director of a theme park. Where did that inspiration come from?Massimiliano Freddi: So it comes from a terrible childhood. And so it comes from the fact that, yeah, the world around me when I was a kid was not a positive world. And my family had a lot of troubles. And I'm an orphan from the side of my mother. I mean, I went through several things. And so I think that the attractions industry, to me, it really meant this place that's always happy and where grownups can really take great care of kids and kids at heart.Massimiliano Freddi: So I think that my passion came out of that. Now, dreaming and doing, of course, we all have as a big myth and as a reference, Walt Disney himself, and he was the guy who first said, 'Dreamers and doers' talking about, what enterprises, so his imagineers. I think that whenever I see something, I want to say something. Everybody who knows me knows pretty well. But it means that I love to see the world in a constant improvement. So, if I check in at a hotel and I see that there is something in there that, you know, it even doesn't impact me. But with a small step, they could make it better and fix it. I just share it and I share it, you know, wherever I am. And so I think that maybe this was a bit of my secret weapon because I got involved in several things. I think because I'm curious and maybe because I'm generous in sharing.Massimiliano Freddi: And I don't know if there is a secret there. There is just that in the moment in which you accept yourself the way you are and you acknowledge that you have some talents, and you don't have some others, and some skills you can get better, some others no way—okay. I could never never be an attorney, I could never do a lot of jobs on the planet, but now I know, at the age of 44, that I know what I'm good at, and even if I'm good at that, I want to constantly improve. So I think that maybe the support that I could bring to the table to the companies I've worked for, to the associations, to my own business, and so on, it's always been this obsession with constant improvement every day.Paul Marden: I think it takes a certain vulnerability, doesn't it? To spot something that you think can be improved and to offer a suggestion. And I think it's so valuable. I was at an attraction recently and I got the email at the end of the day, saying, 'How was it?' Please leave us a review. I went to click it and it didn't work. I knew the head of marketing, so I just pinged him off a quick email that just said, 'Oh, I had such a brilliant time but I couldn't leave you a review. I wanted to give you a brilliant review, but I couldn't do it because it didn't work. And that led them to go and look at all of their outbound emails, and none of them were working properly. But you know, you could walk by and just leave that alone. But I can't do it. However, it is sometimes does make you feel really awkward, couldn't you? But when I get great services in a restaurant, when somebody looks after me while at an attraction, I want to tell them how good it was, and if I can see something they can do better, I want to tell them what they could do.Massimiliano Freddi:  Totally, totally. And I'm so much on the same page. I was about to say that it's equally important to call people out when they're doing well.Paul Marden: Yeah.Massimiliano Freddi: So to make sure that they are aware. And sometimes, you know, to say there was one day where I travelled during a bank holiday, and I arrived at the entire bank holiday, and I arrived to the airport, and I decided I wanted to thank each and every employee that I would meet because they were there that day. I mean. We got used that Sundays are no longer Sundays, but the bank holidays, these are the moments in which you spend time with your family and with your kids and so on. And if you're there and you're working, I mean, it's good that somebody sees you and tells you, 'Hey, thank you because you're working even today, you know?' And you can tell how everybody gets surprised. So I think that we learn so much more by positive reinforcement.Massimiliano Freddi: And so how important it is also to tell attractions, facilities, managers, CEOs. I mean, CEOs, they are so used to just getting... I can't use swear words. Yes, you can. Under those kind of storms, you know, all the time, all the time. And so when a CEO does something good, come on, let's tell her.Paul Marden: Yeah, it's a really lonely job. And all you get is... is the spankings and the tellings off. Isn't it? So when they get it right, they definitely need a pat on the back because they're not going to get it. They're not going to get it. So I can't believe this. At the age of 28, you made your dream come true and you were managing director of a theme park in Italy for Minitalia, which became Leolandia, in this role you took guest numbers from 300, 000 guests a year to over 800,000.Paul Marden: Tell us that story. How do you so dramatically increase footfall at the attraction?Massimiliano Freddi: I don't think it was me. I think it was a great teamwork because it's a great teamwork, you know, and you can grow this much. If your operation is working very well, if your safety is right on spot, if the park is clean, you know, and so on. I can tell you one thing that when we were at the basic level, so at the very beginning, of course, we couldn't afford to buy big attractions or too heavily themed. And we needed really, I remember that the first Halloween, we had a 10K budget, 10,000 euro budget for a whole month of Halloween. Okay, so we would go to the do-it-yourself stores and buy brooms and build everything. I mean, that was a magical moment because it created the capability of the team to envision that, if you want, you can do with the things you have. And of course, with a huge budget, you can do fantastic things.Massimiliano Freddi: But sometimes, you know, this helps. So in that moment... TripAdvisor was a true success still. We're talking about 20 years ago. So TripAdvisor was kind of the reference. That's even before Google Maps and all that. So I remember that I did an analysis and I understood that every restaurant or park who had over 4. 5 out of 5 was growing. And having 4 out of 5 was not enough. Now we call it NPS, we call it a different way. But there, in this practical way, so I remember this moment with my team saying, 'Hey, we need to be obsessed with getting five stars.' And this is the point. So what can we do? First of all, we can have the cleanest toilets on earth. Let's make sure that the smell is good, they are super clean, and so on. Because people, that's a level of service. Of course, this is not a driver of visit, but this is a driver of satisfaction. And in the same way, let's start to work with better suppliers when it comes to food and beverage.Massimiliano Freddi: Let's start to make things more comfortable. So I think that this was the first thing. The second aspect, again, it's very much linked to IAAPA because I think that attending the show every year and knowing the people. At that time, Jakob Wahl, he used to be one of the employees of IAAPA in Brussels. I don't think he was a manager at the time yet. He was in charge of keeping relationships with members. So I reached out to him. We are the same age. I reached out to him and I said, 'Hey, I would love to visit a few facilities in other countries because I need to get fresh ideas.' It was a very delicate moment. We came out of two bad seasons due to bad weather. Because then you know, you don't go from here to here as a straight line, but always as this roller coaster. And in a moment you think, 'Oh, I made it.' There's a dip.Paul Marden: Yeah.Massimiliano Freddi: You can never sleep. And so he put me in contact with several facilities. I visited some in Belgium, in the Netherlands, and in the UK. And in the UK, I visited this, at that time, small park still called Paulton's Park. You might know that. I remember it was a weekday with bad weather and the parking lot was packed. And I was like, 'How comes?' Kids are not at school today. What is the point? I enter the park. The park is, yeah, not so crowded. So I really suspect that they are, you know, keeping the people all shut down together in a place. I don't know. I don't know what the point was. And then I enter the Peppa Pig's World.Massimiliano Freddi: And it blows my mind. And again, what blows my mind is that it didn't have any huge attraction. But it had that feeling. And people were just so happy. It was magic. Little kids there with their families, a lot of strollers all over the place, traffic jams due to strollers. And so I came back and I said, 'Hey, we need to get Peppa Pig.' And I remember that the team was like, 'It can't happen.' It has happened. In the end, we were the second park in the world after Paulton's Park to get Peppa. And that reshaped the entire strategy of the park we had at that time, turning it into what we wanted to achieve, is to become the best park for the kids under the age of 10 in Southern Europe. And best means really the best, rated from the bottom of the heart. And so this is what has happened. So I think that, you know, before Leolandia, I had worked for Disneyland Paris and I'm a big Disney fan. So that was kind of the school I had attended and I just had to apply. The theory that I've learned, I had to apply it, and I had a fantastic team and the resources to do that.Paul Marden: Amazing. Now, fast forward to 2018, and you've taken the step from MD to founder and founded Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore. Now, let's test my Italian. You've also founded Wonderwood Spina Verde. Massimiliano Freddi: I'm speechless. I can't correct anything.Paul Marden: Wonderful. Overlooking Lake Como, both of which, by the way, were... So I've been to Maggiore and Lake Como for my honeymoon. So a beautiful, beautiful place. And you've put two parks there. How has that been?Massimiliano Freddi:  It has been crazy. So I remember that the first year, and I mean, we created the company at the end of 2018. We've opened our gates in the summer of 2019. Now, if we all remember what has happened at the beginning of 2020.Paul Marden: Yeah.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, so perfect timing. Now, I can tell you that the first season, every day, I would literally cry, but for real.Massimilliano Freddi: I was exhausted. My husband was exhausted. We thought that this was a nightmare, the worst possible nightmare. And if somebody had knocked on my door and asked me, 'Hey, could I just take it over?' I don't give you a penny. I will just take home the loans. I would have said yes. And that's because, of course, every project is over budget. Of course. No matter. No matter.Massimiliano Freddi: And when it's a family company and you don't have the money because you've contracted several loans and so on, it makes it super, super difficult. So in that moment, my call for action was because the possibility of Lake Maggiore was in the town where I spent every summer as a kid. So it was a love story. And I wanted to give back to the community. I wanted to do something in the nature that would inspire kids to hike more. To become more active and just not only to stay in front of a screen, but to do something different. So that came out of this kind of dream. And so it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare at the very beginning. Then COVID hit and we were very lucky, of course, because we didn't lose anyone from our families and friends. So I am very thankful for that. And at the same time, it gave us the possibility to stop for a second, rewind, and refine our strategy.Massimiliano Freddi: Because we had just closed the park in, I mean, the week before Christmas, and we were supposed to reopen in less than three months, but we were exhausted. So I'm telling this story because usually it's so nice to tell that the triumphs, you know, and say, 'Hey, it's been fantastic.' Yeah, we nailed it. We had, no, we made 200 mistakes.Massimiliano Freddi: And we paid for all the mistakes. So I think that in that moment, yeah, we were struggling at the beginning. We were reflecting in the middle part. And then three years ago, two to three years ago, I woke up one morning and I understood that I really loved what I was doing. And it had changed. It had changed. And seeing so many families happy and so many people visiting and seeing... How many young professionals or students started to work with us and then you see them leaping? I think that this is the most beautiful thing on earth. It's very empowering. So right now I'm in this situation where I am so grateful for this entire six years, even if they started in a way that was very, very heavy. But, you know, the Latins used to say 'per aspera ad astra.' It means... 'towards the stars through the asperities.' And so we need to go through that thing, that tunnel.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Now, as if founding your own parks wasn't enough, you also mix your time as a professor at the university. I can hear from what you were talking about, about bringing the young professionals into the park, that there's an element to you of apprenticeship almost, of teaching that next cohort of people that are going to come and take over the world.Paul Marden: How exciting is that for you to be able to mix that in at the university?Massimiliano Freddi: It's fantastic. It's fantastic. And again, it came out of passion. It came out. I didn't do a PhD after my university. My career wasn't supposed to be the academic one. And I didn't trust I would be able to do that. And then I got called for a lecture, then two lectures, and three lectures. And then, right now, I have several courses at university.Massimiliano Freddi: There's a point. The point is that, if we meet between our age of 14, 14, 15, until our 25, and if we narrow it down, it's between maybe 16 and 22, this is the moment in which it's more important to meet some mentors. And most of us don't meet mentors. They meet nice people around them, giving them very nice advice based on their experience and not seeing the talents they have in front of them. And in several cases, we are scared. We think that we are not enough. And so I really think that it's such a huge privilege for me to be able to be at university and to meet so many hundreds of students every year and to try to make my small impact so that, first of all, they can believe in themselves and they can believe that the world can be a better place, even if right now it's kind of a tough moment. But from tough moments, again, we can learn things.Massimiliano Freddi: Even at IAAPA, one of the things that I really am passionate more about is what are the spaces we can create for young professionals and students. So I want to give two very short examples. The IAAPA Foundation has evolved a lot over the last few years. We were able to collect so many more donations.Massimiliano Freddi: And now, this year, it will be a record-breaking year when it comes to scholarships to which students can apply in universities around the globe. So I think that's... But to me and to all of us in the board of the IAAPA Foundation, that's like the starting point. We are here celebrating because it's a big achievement and then we look each other in the eyes and say, 'Okay, now what's next?' Now, how can we make sure that the impact is even bigger? And if we go on the side of IAAPA, I think we are very... We pay a lot of attention to make sure that the membership fees are very low for the people entering. The word of leisure. Just a few weeks ago, it got launched on the IAAPA job board that whoever has a company and wants to post an internship, that's free to post. So that, you know, there could be thousands of internships available for students.Massimiliano Freddi: Of course, as a big association, we are used to talk to members and maybe older members because we visit facilities and we visit manufacturers and we need to deal with safety and stuff. But students and young professionals are not on the back of my head. They are like near and dear to my heart. And so my real question is: when this year ends in a couple of months, how can I dedicate myself even more to contribute to young people? Because I think that they are making a change. They will make a change. And we are learning so much from them because the work we are leaving you and me right now. I have bad news. It's no longer our world. We don't have the code to decode that. So we don't have the keys. We can just support people that are better than us and make sure that they can live, that they can teach, that they can learn.  That's a bit of what I see.Paul Marden: I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting because you talk about what you're giving, but you're also getting something back. This is not entirely altruistic, is it? The support that you're giving for these young people and early career professionals, you're getting something back, enriching yourself and learning new things from them.Massimiliano Freddi: Always, always. And I think that, you know, I don't always teach. Market leisure marketing and stuff— you know, I teach marketing at a at a Master's Degree in Management of Beauty and Wellness, total different industry, you know, food and wine. As I was telling, but what I bring home every time is how much young people need to feel seen and, and this is truly important because if we create for them not a safe zone, because of course we want them to get messy. We want them to take risks, but they need to feel safe as humans and they need to feel safe as seen. And so I appreciate a lot this because then the energy that I... And you know, when we talk about IAAPA, we have so many ambassadors that have been contributing to the IAAPA trade shows and events all over the globe. We have young people joining the committees.Massimiliano Freddi: Right now, there are a few, more than a few young professional task forces around the globe that are really helping us, old people, to understand what they need. So I think that we are at the very beginning. And if I could say a dream out loud, I wish that IAAPA in five or ten years, maybe in five years, can multiply the number of young engaged people in the association by 100. 10 is not enough. 20 is by 100. We need to make an impact. And I think we want to make an impact. So hopefully.Paul Marden: Well, there's an ambition for you. And I think every... worthwhile project— every it always starts with that kind of ambitious goal— at the very beginning of it you need to be driven by that  hundred times impact not the 10 times impact we we always like to finish our interviews with a book recommendation, fiction, non-fiction, industry-related or not, give us a view uh into your reading habits, okay, so can I mention more than one book? You bankrupt me because I always offer the book recommendation as a prize for people, but you can have more than one.Massimiliano Freddi: Okay. Okay. Thank you because I'm a big reader. So the first author that I would love to mention is J. K. Rowling because Harry Potter is not just a story of a kid or of magic, but it's a story of a woman who was a bit desperate. And then... She followed what she was feeling. She allowed her emotions to flow. And she has created a masterpiece. And she has impacted us all, you know, no matter business-related, non-business-related, and so on. So I think that, to read again, the first Harry Potter book, it's very important because it brings us back to some reason why, you know, and to some things. The second book that I would love to mention is a book written by Seth Godin. I have had the privilege to work for Seth for several years.Paul Marden: Really?Massimiliano Freddi: And yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's an amazing guy. And come on, he's such a generous person and he's amazing.Massimiliano Freddi: I don't have any other words that's amazing. He wrote a book maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago called Linchpin. And Linchpin is not his most famous book, but it's the book that changed my life because it really nudges you. In a gentle and not so gentle way sometimes. No, I'm saying in a gentle way. It nudges you to don't set for what you have, but to see your inner talents and to innovate and to be creative, be generous, and so on. So, Linchpin to me is the book that changed it all for me. So, I think that everybody, young, less young, everybody should read once in a lifetime.Paul Marden: I feel like I need to go and read this because that is one Seth Godin book I have not read. So there we go. Listeners, if you would like a copy of Linchpin, then the first person that heads over to LinkedIn and reposts our show notice and says, 'I want Massimiliano's book' and can spell Massimiliano correctly, will have a copy of the book sent to them. We've got IAAPA Europe taking place next week in Barcelona.Paul Marden: And we have a very special Skip the Queue announcement. We are going to be hitting the show floor on a daily basis. We are going to go live for daily episodes of Skip the Queue from the show floor. We're going to be talking to operators about what their challenges are like. Finding out what new supplier announcements are coming out. And the Skip the Queue team is going to be feverishly working away. We'll be recording during the day and Steve and Wenalyn will be editing and producing through the night, ready to post the show the following morning. So I'm very excited about that.Massimiliano Freddi: And I think we are super excited to have you guys on the trade show floor. And I recommend... Of course, visiting it, making the most out of it, and don't underestimate the fantastic education sessions that take place. There is a strong lineup of speakers that will impact the way that the industry will be in a few years. So, great opportunity.Paul Marden:  How's that for a trailer? That sounds amazing. Massimilliano, it really has been a pleasure to talk to you.Massimiliano Freddi: Thank you so much, Paul, for me as well. And see you in Barcelona.Paul Marden: Yes, how exciting. Looking forward to it.Paul Marden: Remember, if you'd like a copy of today's book, head over to LinkedIn and repost our show notice saying, 'I want a copy of Massimiliano's book.' If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on your podcasting platform. It really helps people to find the show. If you didn't enjoy it, or you've got ideas about how we could improve the show, then let us know at hello@skipthequeue.fm. My thanks to Massimiliano and his team at IAAPA for their help with this episode. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, the digital agency that creates amazing websites for ambitious visitor attractions. This episode was written by Emily Burrows, produced by Wenalyn Dionaldo and edited by Steve Folland. To Skip the Queue team, also includes Sami Entwistle, Sinead Kimberley, Claire Furnival, and Andy Povey. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we're announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden  and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm. Show references: Paul Marden The CEO of Rubber Cheese, Paul pairs two decades of digital expertise with a love of creative problem solving, making him the go-to guy for turning tricky tech into seamless guest journeys, all delivered with his trademark energy and wit.https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/ Andy Povey The Co-CEO of Crowd Convert, Andy brings sharp insights, deep industry knowledge and notorious anecdotes from decades in attractions.https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/  Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden. Along with my co-hosts, Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. In today's episode, Andy and I talk about what's coming up for Skip the Queue as we enter Season 7.Paul Marden: Seven seasons, hey? Good lord. How very exciting. We've had our summer holidays. We've had our little break, but there's no rest for the wicked, is there?Andy Povey: Absolutely not. You say it's a busman's holiday, really, isn't it?  Working in our industry.Paul Marden: I think it is, isn't it? Life has changed quite a lot for us recently, hasn't it? In the last few months, with the advent of Crowd Convert and Merac coming back to life again, we've been out on the road going everywhere, haven't we?Andy Povey: Absolutely everywhere. And I promise I'm not going to bitch about electric cars and charging.Andy Povey: That's the only thing I've found that annoys me more than a poor online ticketing experience.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So we have both been visiting lots of clients. It's been very exciting. But we've also both had our summer holidays. Which attraction is memorable for you from your recent holiday?Andy Povey: Do you know, there's so many. We took our girls to the longest named tourist attraction in the world, I think. Warner Brothers Studio Tour London, the making of Harry Potter. On their 11th birthday. Oh, how was that? We had a beautiful experience. They have this really smart trick there where if they note your birthday, they give you a badge that says, 'It's my birthday.'Andy Povey: It's modelled on the birthday cake that Hagrid gave Harry. So it's all completely in keeping and in theme. So my daughters were walking around with these and every member of staff we saw that saw the badge wished them happy birthday. The first member of staff that did it absolutely blew my girls' minds. They hadn't associated it with the badge that they were wearing and they thought that they were the most special people on the face of the earth.Andy Povey: Absolutely superb. And the experience itself is wonderful. So that was probably the most memorable. I did something else very recently that was a little bit unusual. So I'm a man in my 50s. I was a teenager, probably not even a teenager, a kid when Grease came out. And all my mates and all my friends raved about it, and I didn't go and see it. And I've been very proud of the fact that I've never seen Grease.Andy Povey: Until last weekend. When we went to the Secret Cinema showing of Grease in Battersea Park, wow, wow, what an experience. Live actors, live scenes with the film running in the background, the fairground sitting outside the auditorium, where the final set, if you've watched Grease ever, where they're in the fairground, went out there.Andy Povey: Such a fantastic experience. Really does make me wonder why we don't have more of our larger parks doing that kind of stuff in partnership with Secret Cinema. It would make you stay for the evening and really extend your day. Absolutely superb experience. So, if you get the opportunity to go and see it, please do.Paul Marden: How very cool.Andy Povey: Tell them Andy sent you, which will mean absolutely nothing.  How about you?Paul Marden: We recently went to Scotland. We spent a day, which was really not enough, in Edinburgh. And actually, as you're talking about the Harry Potter experience, we did a little Harry Potter thing because there is a graveyard, Greyfriars Bobby's graveyard.Paul Marden: It was the inspiration for many of the names in Harry Potter. And this graveyard was, I mean, it was chock full of every nationality of tourist you could possibly imagine, plus the three of us wandering around all trying to find Harry Potter themed gravestones. Yeah, so we found Tom Riddle's tombstone. We saw a McGonagall. Yeah, it was just, that was quite magical. But the thing that sticks in my head is we also visited the Real Mary King's Close. And when you walk along the Royal Mile, falling off the side of the Royal Mile are all of these tenement closes that three of them were capped over a couple of hundred years ago and completely forgotten about. Continuum attractions have turned them into an attraction that you can wander around. You get a guided tour of this time capsule of what life was like in a tenement block. In Edinburgh, it was rated last year as the best tourist attraction in Britain, according to TripAdvisor.Paul Marden: And it really, really was magical. It was such a fun visit. We were guided around by a tour guide in costume and in character the whole way around. And at the end of it, she introduced herself as coming from Philadelphia.Paul Marden: She was really really great guide, and I just loved it. I've seen them in the Rubber Cheese Survey for the last four years, and thought, 'What a funny name for an attraction? I wonder what that is?' And so, when I saw it, I had to go. I loved every minute of it, and it was brilliant.Andy Povey: I agree, it's a fantastic place. Did you see J. K. Rowling's handprints just around the corner?Paul Marden: No.Andy Povey: In the courtyard next to the entrance?Paul Marden: No, I didn't.Andy Povey: See, I think they were trying to do something like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, where there are famous people's handprints. I should have told you before. Is there something to go back for?Paul Marden: Oh, we'll definitely be going back. There was so much there in Edinburgh that we didn't get to see. You just couldn't do it in a day.Paul Marden: But so much fun. So much fun.Paul Marden: So we are into season seven. And just like the last few seasons, we've got lots of ideas, brimming with ideas, few changes. And we thought we would tease them for you here in this short non-episode, just to tell you about some of the things that are coming up. And yeah, shall we?Paul Marden: We'll talk about the first thing that you came up with, which was the move to weekly content.Andy Povey:  You're blaming me for this?Paul Marden: Absolutely. Absolutely.Andy Povey: I mean, the objective was to double the listenership of the podcast. And so you did that by doubling my work. And it seemed like it would be really, really easy to do that if we doubled the episodes.Andy Povey: So, yeah, we're going weekly. I'm sure we're going to have plenty to fill it. Because you look at all of the interesting stories we come across, the people that we talk to, the things that we want to talk about, and we end up editing and cutting things. So I'm convinced that we're going to have loads of really exciting things to talk about. We're also going to introduce a couple of different themes. So do you want to talk about the Millennium-funded projects?Paul Marden: Yes, so this is carrying on the theme that I started back at the back end of Season 6. When I spoke to another Edinburgh attraction, Dynamic Earth. They were a good example of a Millennium project that was obviously kicked off 25 years ago. And we had a lovely conversation about what has been the challenges, what has been the opportunities for them in the last 25 years, and what does the future look like? I'm off to the Association of Science and Discovery Centres conference next week. That episode will be out in a few weeks' time. And we're going to be talking a lot about science centres. and how they can thrive over the next 25 years. But we'll be talking to some other Millennium projects as well in the season ahead. So Charles Bishop from the National Space Centre, if you're listening, give me a call.Andy Povey: I'm going to try and hound you to appear on the podcast.Paul Marden: We've also, this is very self-indulgent, but we are going to be going through a little bit of a rebrand. The Skip the Queue brand has stayed the same for the six seasons. And our friends at Plaster Creative Communications have been working really hard. They're the only reason why we could possibly go weekly with our content because Emily and Sami are helping us to ramp up our content and working with us closely. But they've also helped us with our rebrand, which is also going to be an audio rebrand. So there's going to be some new audio tickling your ears coming up as well, which is very exciting.Andy Povey: It's not just the rebrand though, is it? Let's talk about the other things that we're going to be doing with Skip the Queue.Paul Marden: Yeah. Should we talk playbooks?Andy Povey: Absolutely. Tell me what it means.Paul Marden: So I, for a long time, thought that there was something that Skip the Queue could do because, you know. Yes, this is our baby, but it is a lot of hard work from across the industry that goes towards making the podcast the success that it is. And we're going to move that successful collaboration into a series of playbooks where we're bringing together people from across the industry to help guide attractions into... the state of the art and what's possible within the sector across a number of different subjects. And we're starting that with e-commerce. So we're currently collaborating with our friends at Stephen Spencer Associates and at Navigate. And we're producing the first in that playbook series all about what... What does it take to be able to build an amazing e-commerce experience for an attraction? How do you curate the products?Paul Marden: How do you come up with the ideas? How do you put the technology together? And then how do you get anybody to come and visit and buy from you? So that's very exciting.Andy Povey: So that's more of your gift shop. Retail e-commerce.Paul Marden: Absolutely. Absolutely. And there'll be room as well within the series for us to talk about other things as well. So we are completely open to ideas. So listeners, if you've got ideas of a playbook that you'd like to see, it could be about digital sustainability. It could be about ticketing. It could be about any aspect of operating an attraction. Come and tell us and come up with ideas of who we could work with and we'll put something together for you. So I think that's really exciting, and that will be coming out in a few weeks' time.Andy Povey: Very interesting. Look forward to that.Paul Marden: We were excited in Season 6 to break out of the four walls of our little dungeon offices, working via video conferencing and going out and about, weren't we? We absolutely loved visiting the NFAN Conference, ASDC.Paul Marden: We worked from the floor of so many different events, didn't we? And tried lots of formats. And we definitely, definitely want to do more of that. And there's an exciting turn because weekly isn't enough, is it?Andy Povey:  If you're going to do it, go big. Go big or go home.Paul Marden: We have been invited to the IAAPA Europe Conference Expo in Barcelona, no less. And we are going to be coming into your ears daily, not weekly, daily.Paul Marden: So we have got an amazing lineup of people that we are going to be talking to from the conference floor. But there's also so much time to fill. We don't know who we're going to talk to. We're going to be hitting the floor and just grabbing people, just like we did at NFAN. You'll be out, Andy, just hooking people. And we'll be talking to them. And we plan to do those interviews during the day, and Wenalyn and Steve, our long-suffering editorial and production team, will be working furiously through the night to publish the following morning.Andy Povey: Fantastic. So do we need to talk about our launch episode for Season 7?Paul Marden: Yes.Andy Povey: As this is just the trailer.Paul Marden: Yes. So in 29 minutes, I will be recording my launch episode. So I'm meeting with Massimiliano Freddi, who is the IAAPA board chairman. We're going to find out more about Massimiliano. Not only is he the first Italian chairman of IAAPA, which has been in existence for over 100 years, I believe. We are also going to find out about what he does in his day job and the attraction that he runs over in Italy. So that's a very exciting first episode. So we will be launching that episode 17th of September, and then we will be live from Barcelona starting on the 23rd and going out daily from there on for the rest of that week. I mean, what more could we want? Andy Povey: It's justification for the family for me going to Barcelona after just having returned from Menorca so daddy does a holiday work.Paul Marden: We've at least got to walk down Las Rambla and chat about the conference we can't just be within the expo location surely. A little vino tinto on.Andy Povey: I'm sure we will be at Tribudabo at what, in my experience, this is the third time I've been to IAAPA in Barcelona. But the opening night party in Tribudabo has always been one of the most fantastic events I've ever been to. The view over the city at night with rides and superb food, drink and entertainment going off behind you is just  out of this world.Paul Marden: But it's work just for anyone that's listening outside the door right now.Andy Povey: Very hard work for very important people.Paul Marden: Yes so we are still planning out the rest of season seven, obviously going weekly, lots of opportunities for us to talk to lots of people. If you've got ideas for themes or people that we could interview, we are absolutely all ears. So hit us up on LinkedIn, hello@SkiptheQueue.fm, or go to the website, skipthequeue.fm. Yeah, and you'll find all of our contact details and we'd love to hear from you with ideas of what we could do for the rest of this season. What would you find interesting? Apart from that, we're going to sign off. I've got an interview to go to in 25 minutes. We will be back with you on the 17th of September with our first episode and from IAAPA on the 23rd of September for the rest of that week.Andy Povey: You're going to be on IAAPA. Come and find us. Come and have a chat.Paul Marden: Looking forward to it.Paul Marden: Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, the digital agency that creates amazing websites for ambitious visitor attractions.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 23rd July 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references:  Sam Mullins, Trustee at SS Great Britainhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/sammullins/https://www.ssgreatbritain.org/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: What an amazing day out here. Welcome to Skip the Queue. The podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions, I'm your host, Paul Marden, and today you join me for the last episode of the season here in a very sunny and very pleasant Bristol Dockyard. I'm here to visit the SS Great Britain and one of their trustees, Sam Mullins, who until recently, was the CEO of London Transport Museum. And I'm going to be talking to Sam about life after running a big, family friendly Museum in the centre of London, and what comes next, and I'm promising you it's not pipes and the slippers for Sam, he's been very busy with the SSGreat Britain and with other projects that we'll talk a little more about. But for now, I'm going to enjoy poodling across the harbour on boat number five awaiting arrival over at the SS Great Britain. Paul Marden: Is there much to catch in the water here?Sam Mullins: According to some research, there's about 36 different species of fish. They catch a lot of cream. They catch Roach, bullet, bass car. Big carpet there, maybe, yeah, huge carpet there. And then your European great eel is here as well, right? Yeah, massive things by the size of your leg, big heads. It's amazing. It goes to show how receipt your life is. The quality of the water is a lot better now. Paul Marden: Oh yeah, yeah, it's better than it used to be years ago. Thank you very much. All right. Cheers. Have a good day. See you later on. So without further ado, let's head inside. So where should we head? Too fast. Sam Mullins: So we start with the stern of the ship, which is the kind of classic entrance view, you know. Yeah, coming up, I do. I love the shape of this ship as you as you'll see.Paul Marden: So lovely being able to come across the water on the boat and then have this as you're welcome. It's quite a.Sam Mullins: It's a great spot. Isn't it?Paul Marden: Really impactful, isn't it? Sam Mullins:  Because the amazing thing is that it's going this way, is actually in the dry dock, which was built to build it. Paul Marden: That's amazing. Sam Mullins: So it came home. It was clearly meant to be, you know,Paul Marden:  Quite the circular story.Sam Mullins:  Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Paul Marden:  Thank you. Wow. Look at that view.Sam Mullins: So that's your classic view.Paul Marden:  So she's in a dry dock, but there's a little bit of water in there, just to give us an idea of what's going on. Sam Mullins: Well, what's actually going on in here is, preserving the world's first iron ship. So it became clear, after he'd come back from the Falklands, 1970 came back to Bristol, it became clear that the material of the ship was rusting away. And if something wasn't done, there'd be nothing left, nothing left to show. So the innovative solution is based on a little bit of science if you can reduce the relative humidity of the air around the cast iron hull of the ship to around about 20% relative humidity, corrosion stops. Rusting stops. It's in a dry dock. You glaze over the dock at kind of water line, which, as you just noticed, it gives it a really nice setting. It looks like it's floating, yeah, it also it means that you can then control the air underneath. You dry it out, you dehumidify it. Big plant that dries out the air. You keep it at 20% and you keep the ship intact. Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it, because you go to Mary Rose, and you go into the ship Hall, and you've got this hermetically sealed environment that you can maintain all of these beautiful Tudor wooden pieces we're outside on a baking hot day. You don't have the benefit of a hermetically sealed building, do you to keep this? Sam Mullins: I guess the outside of the ship is kind of sealed by the paint. That stops the air getting to the bit to the bare metal. We can go down into the trigger, down whilst rise up.Paul Marden:  We're wondering. Sam, yeah, why don't you introduce yourself, tell listeners a little bit about your background. How have we ended up having this conversation today.Sam Mullins: I'm Sam Mullins. I'm a historian. I decided early on that I wanted to be a historian that worked in museums and had an opportunity to kind of share my fascination with the past with museum visitors. So I worked in much Wenlock in Shropshire. I worked created a new museum in market Harbour, a community museum in Leicestershire. I was director of museums in St Albans, based on, you know, great Roman Museum at Verulamium, okay. And ended up at London Transport Museum in the 90s, and was directed there for a long time.Paul Marden: Indeed, indeed. Oh, we are inside now and heading underground.Sam Mullins: And you can hear the thrumming in the background. Is the dehumidification going on. Wow. So we're descending into thevery dry dock.Paul Marden: So we're now under water level. Yes, and the view of the ceiling with the glass roof, which above looked like a lovely little pond, it's just beautiful, isn't it?Sam Mullins: Yes, good. It sets it off both in both directions, really nicely.Paul Marden: So you've transitioned now, you've moved on from the Transport Museum. And I thought that today's episode, we could focus a little bit on what is, what's life like when you've moved on from being the director of a big, famous, influential, family friendly Museum. What comes next? Is it pipe and slippers, or are there lots of things to do? And I think it's the latter, isn't it? Sam Mullins: Yes. Well, you know, I think people retire either, you know, do nothing and play golf, or they build, you know, an interesting portfolio. I wanted to build, you know, something a bit more interesting. And, you know, Paul, there's that kind of strange feeling when you get to retire. And I was retiring from full time executive work, you kind of feel at that point that you've just cracked the job. And at that point, you know, someone gives you, you know, gives you a card and says, "Thank you very much, you've done a lovely job." Kind of, "Off you go." So having the opportunity to deploy some of that long term experience of running a successful Museum in Covent Garden for other organisations was part of that process of transition. I've been writing a book about which I'm sure we'll talk as well that's been kind of full on this year, but I was a trustee here for a number of years before I retired. I think it's really good career development for people to serve on a board to see what it's like, you know, the other side of the board. Paul Marden: I think we'll come back to that in a minute and talk a little bit about how the sausage is made. Yeah, we have to do some icebreaker questions, because I probably get you already. You're ready to start talking, but I'm gonna, I'm just gonna loosen you up a little bit, a couple of easy ones. You're sat in front of the telly, comedy or drama?Sam Mullins: It depends. Probably.Paul Marden: It's not a valid answer. Sam Mullins: Probably, probably drama.Paul Marden: Okay, if you need to talk to somebody, is it a phone call or is it a text message that you'll send?Sam Mullins:  Face to face? Okay, much better. Okay, always better. Paul Marden: Well done. You didn't accept the premise of the question there, did you? Lastly, if you're going to enter a room, would you prefer to have a personal theme tune played every time you enter the room. Or would you like a personal mascot to arrive fully suited behind you in every location you go to?Sam Mullins: I don't know what the second one means, so I go for the first one.Paul Marden: You've not seen a football mascot on watching American football or baseball?Sam Mullins: No, I try and avoid that. I like real sport. I like watching cricket. Paul Marden: They don't do that in cricket. So we are at the business end of the hull of the ship, aren't we? We're next to the propeller. Sam Mullins: We're sitting under the stern. We can still see that lovely, gilded Stern, saying, Great Britain, Bristol, and the windows and the coat of arms across the stern of the ship. Now this, of course, was the biggest ship in the world when built. So not only was it the first, first iron ship of any scale, but it was also third bigger than anything in the Royal Navy at the time. Paul Marden: They talked about that, when we were on the warrior aim the other day, that it was Brunel that was leading the way on what the pinnacle of engineering was like. It was not the Royal Navy who was convinced that it was sail that needed to lead. Sam Mullins: Yeah, Brunel had seen a much smaller, propeller driven vessel tried out, which was being toured around the country. And so they were midway through kind of design of this, when they decided it wasn't going to be a paddle steamer, which its predecessor, the world's first ocean liner, the Great Western. A was a paddle steamer that took you to New York. He decided that, and he announced to the board that he was going to make a ship that was driven by a propeller, which was the first, and this is, this is actually a replica of his patent propeller design. Paul Marden: So, this propeller was, is not the original to the show, okay?Sam Mullins: Later in its career, it had the engines taken out, and it was just a sailing ship. It had a long and interesting career. And for the time it was going to New York and back, and the time it was going to Australia and back, carrying migrants. It was a hybrid, usually. So you use the sails when it was favourable when it wasn't much wind or the wind was against. You use the use the engines. Use the steam engine.Paul Marden: Coming back into fashion again now, isn't it? Sam Mullins: Yeah, hybrid, yeah.Paul Marden: I can see holes in the hull. Was this evident when it was still in the Falklands?Sam Mullins: Yeah, it came to notice in the 60s that, you know, this world's first it was beached at Sparrow Cove in the Falkland Islands. It had lost its use as a wool warehouse, which is which it had been for 30 or 40 years. And a number of maritime historians, you and call it. It was the kind of key one realised that this, you know, extraordinary, important piece of maritime heritage would maybe not last too many war winters at Sparrow cope had a big crack down one side of the hull. It would have probably broken in half, and that would have made any kind of conservation restoration pretty well impossible as it was. It was a pretty amazing trick to put it onto a to put a barge underneath, to raise it up out of the water, and to tow it into Montevideo and then across the Atlantic, you know, 7000 miles, or whatever it is, to Avon mouth. So it's a kind of heroic story from the kind of heroic age of industrial and maritime heritage, actually.Paul Marden: It resonates for me in terms of the Mary Rose in that you've got a small group of very committed people that are looking to rescue this really valuable asset. And they find it and, you know, catch it just in time. Sam Mullins: Absolutely. That was one of the kind of eye openers for me at Mary rose last week, was just to look at the kind of sheer difficulty of doing conventional archaeology underwater for years and years. You know, is it 50,000 dives were made? Some immense number. And similarly, here, you know, lots of people kind of simply forget it, you know, it's never gonna, but a few, stuck to it, you know, formed a group, fund, raised. This is an era, of course, you know, before lottery and all that jazz. When you had to, you had to fundraise from the public to do this, and they managed to raise the money to bring it home, which, of course, is only step one. You then got to conserve this enormous lump of metal so it comes home to the dry dock in which it had been built, and that has a sort of fantastic symmetry, you know about it, which I just love. You know, the dock happened to be vacant, you know, in 1970 when the ship was taken off the pontoon at Avon mouth, just down the river and was towed up the curving Avon river to this dock. It came beneath the Clifton Suspension Bridge, which, of course, was Brunel design, but it was never built in his time. So these amazing pictures of this Hulk, in effect,  coming up the river, towed by tugs and brought into the dock here with 1000s of people you know, surrounding cheering on the sidelines, and a bit like Mary Rose in a big coverage on the BBC.Paul Marden: This is the thing. So I have a very vivid memory of the Mary Rose being lifted, and that yellow of the scaffolding is just permanently etched in my brain about sitting on the carpet in primary school when the TV was rolled out, and it was the only TV in the whole of school that, to me is it's modern history happening. I'm a Somerset boy. I've been coming to Bristol all my life. I wasn't alive when Great Britain came back here. So to me, this feels like ancient history. It's always been in Bristol, because I have no memory of it returning home. It was always just a fixture. So when we were talking the other day and you mentioned it was brought back in the 70s, didn't realise that. Didn't realise that at all. Should we move on? Because I am listening. Gently in the warmth.Sam Mullins: Let's move around this side of the as you can see, the dry dock is not entirely dry, no, but nearly.Paul Marden: So, you're trustee here at SS Great Britain. What does that mean? What do you do?Sam Mullins: Well, the board, Board of Trustees is responsible for the governance of the charity. We employ the executives, the paid team here. We work with them to develop the kind of strategy, financial plan, to deliver that strategy, and we kind of hold them as executives to account, to deliver on that.Paul Marden: It's been a period of change for you, hasn't it? Just recently, you've got a new CEO coming to the first anniversary, or just past his first anniversary. It's been in place a little while.Sam Mullins: So in the last two years, we've had a, we've recruited a new chairman, new chief executive, pretty much a whole new leadership team.One more starting next month, right? Actually, we're in July this month, so, yeah, it's been, you know, organisations are like that. They can be very, you know, static for some time, and then suddenly a kind of big turnover. And people, you know, people move.Paul Marden: So we're walking through what is a curved part of the dry dock now. So this is becoming interesting underfoot, isn't it?Sam Mullins: This is built in 1839 by the Great Western Steamship Company to build a sister ship to the Great Western which was their first vessel built for the Atlantic run to New York. As it happens, they were going to build a similar size vessel, but Brunel had other ideas, always pushing the edges one way or another as an engineer.Paul Marden: The keel is wood. Is it all wood? Or is this some sort of?Sam Mullins: No, this is just like, it's sort of sacrificial.So that you know when, if it does run up against ground or whatever, you don't actually damage the iron keel.Paul Marden: Right. Okay, so there's lots happening for the museum and the trust. You've just had a big injection of cash, haven't you, to do some interesting things. So there was a press release a couple of weeks ago, about a million pound of investment. Did you go and find that down the back of the sofa? How do you generate that kind of investment in the charity?Sam Mullins: Unusually, I think that trust that's put the bulk of that money and came came to us. I think they were looking to do something to mark their kind of, I think to mark their wind up. And so that was quite fortuitous, because, as you know at the moment, you know, fundraising is is difficult. It's tough. Paul Marden: That's the understatement of the year, isn't it?Sam Mullins: And with a new team here and the New World post COVID, less, less visitors, income harder to gain from. Pretty well, you know, all sources, it's important to keep the site kind of fresh and interesting. You know, the ship has been here since 1970 it's become, it's part of Bristol. Wherever you go in Bristol, Brunel is, you know, kind of the brand, and yet many Bristolians think they've seen all this, and don't need, you know, don't need to come back again. So keeping the site fresh, keeping the ideas moving on, are really important. So we've got the dockyard museum just on the top there, and that's the object for fundraising at the moment, and that will open in July next year as an account of the building of the ship and its importance. Paul Marden: Indeed, that's interesting. Related to that, we know that trusts, trusts and grants income really tough to get. Everybody's fighting for a diminishing pot income from Ace or from government sources is also tough to find. At the moment, we're living off of budgets that haven't changed for 10 years, if we're lucky. Yeah, for many people, finding a commercial route is the answer for their museum. And that was something that you did quite successfully, wasn't it, at the Transport Museum was to bring commercial ideas without sacrificing the integrity of the museum. Yeah. How do you do that?Sam Mullins: Well, the business of being an independent Museum, I mean, LTM is a to all sets of purposes, an independent Museum. Yes, 81% of its funding itself is self generated. Paul Marden: Is it really? Yeah, yeah. I know. I would have thought the grant that you would get from London Transport might have been bigger than that.  Sam Mullins: The grant used to be much bigger proportion, but it's got smaller and smaller. That's quite deliberate. Are, you know, the more you can stand on your own two feet, the more you can actually decide which direction you're going to take those feet in. Yeah. So there's this whole raft of museums, which, you know, across the UK, which are independently governed, who get all but nothing from central government. They might do a lottery grant. Yes, once in a while, they might get some NPO funding from Ace, but it's a tiny part, you know, of the whole. And this ship, SS Great Britain is a classic, you know, example of that. So what do you do in those circumstances? You look at your assets and you you try and monetise them. That's what we did at London Transport Museum. So the museum moved to Covent Garden in 1980 because it was a far sighted move. Michael Robbins, who was on the board at the time, recognised that they should take the museum from Scion Park, which is right on the west edge, into town where people were going to be, rather than trying to drag people out to the edge of London. So we've got that fantastic location, in effect, a high street shop. So retail works really well, you know, at Covent Garden.Paul Marden: Yeah, I know. I'm a sucker for a bit of moquette design.Sam Mullins: We all love it, which is just great. So the museum developed, you know, a lot of expertise in creating products and merchandising it. We've looked at the relationship with Transport for London, and we monetised that by looking at TFL supply chain and encouraging that supply chain to support the museum. So it is possible to get the TFL commissioner to stand up at a corporate members evening and say, you know, you all do terribly well out of our contract, we'd like you to support the museum as well, please. So the corporate membership scheme at Transport Museum is bigger than any other UK museum by value, really, 60, 65 members,. So that was, you know, that that was important, another way of looking at your assets, you know, what you've got. Sometimes you're talking about monetising relationships. Sometimes it's about, you know, stuff, assets, yeah. And then in we began to run a bit short of money in the kind of middle of the teens, and we did an experimental opening of the Aldwych disused tube station on the strand, and we're amazed at the demand for tickets.Paul Marden: Really, it was that much of a surprise for you. And we all can talk. Sam Mullins: We had been doing, we've been doing some guided tours there in a sort of, slightly in a one off kind of way, for some time. And we started to kind of think, well, look, maybe should we carry on it? Paul Marden: You've got the audience that's interested.Sam Mullins: And we've got the access through TFL which, you know, took a lot of work to to convince them we weren't going to, you know, take loads of people underground and lose them or that they jump out, you know, on the Piccadilly line in the middle of the service, or something. So hidden London is the kind of another really nice way where the museum's looked at its kind of assets and it's monetised. And I don't know what this I don't know what this year is, but I think there are now tours run at 10 different sites at different times. It's worth about half a million clear to them to the museum.Paul Marden: It's amazing, and they're such brilliant events. So they've now opened up for younger kids to go. So I took my daughter and one of her friends, and they were a little bit scared when the lights got turned off at one point, but we had a whale of a time going and learning about the history of the tube, the history of the tube during the war. It was such an interesting, accessible way to get to get them interested in stuff. It was brilliant.Sam Mullins: No, it's a great programme, and it was doing well before COVID, we went into lockdown, and within three weeks, Chris Nix and the team had started to do kind of zoom virtual tours. We all are stuck at home looking at our screens and those hidden London hangouts the audience kind of gradually built yesterday TV followed with secrets of London Underground, which did four series of. Hidden London book has sold 25,000 copies in hardback, another one to come out next year, maybe.Paul Marden: And all of this is in service of the museum. So it's almost as if you're opening the museum up to the whole of London, aren't you, and making all of that space you're you. Museum where you can do things.Sam Mullins: Yeah. And, of course, the great thing about hidden London programme is it's a bit like a theatre production. We would get access to a particular site for a month or six weeks. You'd sell the tickets, you know, like mad for that venue. And then the run came to an end, and you have to, you know, the caravan moves on, and we go to, you know, go to go to a different stations. So in a sense, often it's quite hard to get people to go to an attraction unless they've got visitors staying or whatever. But actually, if there's a time limit, you just kind of have to do it, you know.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Everybody loves a little bit of scarcity, don't they? Sam Mullins: Should we go up on the deck? Paul Marden: That sounds like fun to me.Sam Mullins: Work our way through.Paul Marden: So Hidden London was one of the angles in order to make the museum more commercially sound. What are you taking from your time at LTM and bringing to the party here at the SS Great Britain?Sam Mullins: Well, asking similar, you know, range of questions really, about what assets do we have? Which of those are, can be, can be monetised in support of the charity? Got here, Paul, so we're, we've got the same mix as lots of middle sized museums here. There's a it's a shop, paid admission, hospitality events in the evening, cafe. You know that mix, what museums then need to do is kind of go, you know, go beyond that, really, and look at their estate or their intellectual property, or the kind of experiences they can offer, and work out whether some of that is monetisable.Paul Marden: Right? And you mentioned before that Brunel is kind of, he's the mascot of Bristol. Almost, everything in Bristol focuses on Brunel. Is there an opportunity for you to collaborate with other Brunel themed sites, the bridge or?Sam Mullins: Yeah. Well, I think probably the opportunity is to collaborate with other Bristol attractions. Because Bristol needs to. Bristol's having a hard time since COVID numbers here are nowhere near what they were pre COVID So, and I think it's the same in the city, across the city. So Andrew chief executive, is talking to other people in the city about how we can share programs, share marketing, that kind of approach.Paul Marden: Making the docks a destination, you know, you've got We the Curious. Where I was this morning, having coffee with a friend and having a mooch around. Yeah, talking about science and technology, there must be things that you can cross over. This was this war. This feels like history, but it wasn't when it was built, was it? It was absolutely the cutting edge of science and technology.Sam Mullins: Absolutely, and well, almost beyond, you know, he was Brunel was pushing, pushing what could be done. It is the biggest ship. And it's hard to think of it now, because, you know, you and I can walk from one end to the other in no time. But it was the biggest ship in the world by, you know, some way, when it was launched in 1845 so this was a bit like the Great Western Railway. It was cutting edge, cutting edge at the time, as we were talking about below. It had a propeller, radical stuff. It's got the bell, too,Paul Marden: When we were on, was it Warrior that we were on last week at the AIM conference for the first. And warrior had a propeller, but it was capable of being lifted, because the Admiralty wasn't convinced that this new fangled propeller nonsense, and they thought sail was going to lead. Sam Mullins: Yeah. Well, this ship had, you could lift a you could lift a propeller, because otherwise the propeller is a drag in the water if it's not turning over. So in its earlier configurations, it was a, it was that sort of a hybrid, where you could lift the propeller out the way, right, set full sail.Paul Marden:  Right, and, yeah, it's just, it's very pleasant out here today, isn't it? Lovely breeze compared to what it's been like the last few days. Sam Mullins: Deck has just been replaced over the winter. Paul Marden:  Oh, has it really. So say, have you got the original underneathSam Mullins: The original was little long, long gone. So what we have replaced was the deck that was put on in the in the 70s when the ship came back.Paul Marden: Right? You were talking earlier on about the cafe being one of the assets. You've done quite a lot of work recently, haven't you with the team at Elior to refurbish the cafe? What's the plan around that?Sam Mullins: Yeah, we're doing a big reinvestment. You always need to keep the offer fresh anyway, but it was time to reinvest. So the idea is to use that fantastic space on the edge of the dock. It's not very far down to where the floating harbour is really well populated with kind of restaurants and bars and an offer, we're just that 200 meters further along the dock. So perhaps to create an offer here that draws people up here, whether they visit the ship, you know, or not. So it's money, it's monetising your assets. So one of the great assets is this fabulous location on the on the dockside. So with early or we're reinvesting in the restaurant, it's going to go in the auto into after some trial openings and things, Paul, you know, it's going to have an evening offer as well as a daytime offer. And then it's been designed so the lights can go down in the evening. It becomes, you know, an evening place, rather than the museum's all day cafe, yes, and the offer, and obviously in the evenings would similarly change. And I think our ambition is that you should, you should choose this as the place to go out in the evening. Really, it's a great spot. It's a lovely, warm evening. We're going to walk along the dockside. I've booked a table and in the boardwalk, which is what we're calling it. And as you pay the bill, you notice that actually, this is associated with Asus, Great Britain. So, you know, the profit from tonight goes to help the charity, rather than it's the museum cafe. So that's the,Paul Marden: That's the pitch.Sam Mullins: That's the pitch in which we're working with our catering partners, Eli, or to deliver.Paul Marden: Andrew, your CEO and Claire from Eli, or have both kindly said that I can come back in a couple of months time and have a conversation about the restaurant. And I think it would be rude to turn them down, wouldn't it?Sam Mullins: I think you should test the menu really fully.Paul Marden: I will do my best. It's a tough job that I have. Sam Mullins: Somebody has to do this work. Paul Marden: I know, talking of tough jobs, the other thing that I saw when I was looking at the website earlier on was a press release talking about six o'clock gin as being a a partnership that you're investigating, because every museum needs its own tipple, doesn't it?Sam Mullins: Absolutely And what, you know, I think it's, I think what people want when they go to an attraction is they, they also want something of the offer to be locally sourced, completely, six o'clock gym, you know, Bristol, Bristol beers. You can't always do it, but I think, I think it's where you've got the opportunity. And Bristol's a bit of a foodie centre. There's quite a lot going on here in that respect. So, yes, of course, the museum ought to be ought to be doing that too.Paul Marden: I was very kindly invited to Big Pit over in the Welsh Valleys about 8 or 12 weeks ago for the launch, relaunch of their gift shop offering. And absolutely, at the core of what they were trying to do was because it's run by Museums Wales, they found that all of their gift shops were just a bland average of what you could get at any of the museums. None of them spoke of the individual place. So if you went to big pit, the gift shop looked the same as if you were in the centre of Cardiff, whereas now when you go you see things that are naturally of Big Pit and the surrounding areas. And I think that's so important to create a gift shop which has things that is affordable to everybody, but at the same time authentic and genuinely interesting.Sam Mullins: Yeah, I'm sure that's right. And you know I'm saying for you is for me, when I when I go somewhere, you want to come away with something, don't you? Yes, you know, you're a National Trust member and you haven't had to pay anything to get in. But you think I should be supporting the cause, you know, I want to go into that shop and then I want to, I want to buy some of the plants for my garden I just seen, you know, on the estate outside. Or I want to come away with a six o'clock gin or, you know, whatever it might be, there's and I think, I think you're more likely to buy if it's something that you know has engaged you, it's part of that story that's engaged you, right, while you're here. That's why everyone buys a guidebook and reads it afterwards.Paul Marden: Yeah, it's a reminder, isn't it, the enjoyable time that you've had? Yeah, I'm enjoying myself up on the top deck. Sam Mullins:  But should we go downstairs? The bow is a great view. Oh, let's do that. I think we might. Let's just work our way down through.Paul Marden: Take a sniff. Could you travel with these smelly passengers? Oh, no, I don't think I want to smell what it's like to be a cow on board shit. Sam Mullins: Fresh milk. Just mind yourself on these companion, ways are very steep now. This is probably where I get completely lost.Paul Marden: You know what we need? We need a very good volunteer. Don't we tell a volunteer story? COVID in the kitchen. Wow. Sam Mullins: The Gabby.Paul Marden: Generous use of scent. Sam Mullins: Yeah, food laid out pretty much based on what we know was consumed on the ship. One of the great things about the ship is people kept diaries. A lot of people kept diaries, and many have survived, right? You know exactly what it was like to be in first class or in steerage down the back.Paul Marden: And so what was the ship used for? Sam Mullins: Well, it was used, it was going to be an ocean liner right from here to New York, and it was more like the Concord of its day. It was essentially first class and second class. And then it has a founders on a bay in Northern Ireland. It's rescued, fitted out again, and then the opportunity comes take people to Australia. The Gold Rush in the 1850s. Migration to Australia becomes the big kind of business opportunity for the ships. Ships new owners. So there's more people on board that used to it applies to and fro to Australia a number of times 30 odd, 40 times. And it takes, takes passengers. It takes goods. It does bring back, brings back gold from because people were there for the gold rush. They were bringing their earnings, you know, back with them. It also brings mail, and, you know, other. Kind of car goes wool was a big cargo from. Paul Marden: Say, people down and assets back up again.Sam Mullins: People both directions. Paul Marden: Okay, yeah. How long was it taking?Sam Mullins: Well, a good trip. I think it did it in 50 odd days. Bit slower was 60 odd. And the food was like this. So it was steerage. It was probably a bit more basic. Paul Marden: Yeah, yes, I can imagine. Sam Mullins: I think we might. Here's the engines. Let's do the engines well.Paul Marden: Yes. So now we're in the engine room and, oh, it's daylight lit, actually. So you're not down in the darkest of depths, but the propeller shaft and all of the mechanism is it runs full length, full height of the ship.Sam Mullins: Yeah, it runs off from here, back to the propeller that we're looking at. Okay, down there a guy's stoking the boilers, putting coal into into the boilers, 24 hour seven, when the engines are running. Paul Marden: Yes, that's going to be a tough job, isn't it? Yeah, coal is stored in particular locations. Because that was something I learned from warrior, was the importance of making sure that you had the coal taken in the correct places, so that you didn't unbalance the ship. I mean,Sam Mullins: You right. I mean loading the ship generally had to be done really carefully so, you know, sort of balanced out and so forth. Coal is tends to be pretty low down for yes, for obvious reasons.Paul Marden: So let's talk a little bit about being a trustee. We're both trustees of charities. I was talking to somebody last week who been in the sector for a number of years, mid career, interested in becoming a trustee as a career development opportunity. What's the point of being a trustee? What's the point of the trustees to the CEO, and what's the benefit to the trustees themselves? Sam Mullins: Well, let's do that in order for someone in the mid part of their career, presumably looking to assume some kind of leadership role. At some point they're going to be dealing with a board, aren't they? Yes, they might even be doing, you know, occasional reporting to a board at that at their current role, but they certainly will be if they want to be chief executive. So getting some experience on the other side of the table to feel what it's like to be a trustee dealing with chief executive. I think he's immensely useful. I always recommended it to to my gang at the Transport Museum, and they've all been on boards of one sort or another as part of their career development.Sam Mullins: For the chief executive. What's the benefit? Well, the board, I mean, very directly, hold the chief executive to account. Yes, are you doing what we asked you to do? But also the wise chief executive recruits a board that's going to be helpful in some way or another. It's not just there to catch them out. Yeah, it's it's there to bring their experience from business, from IT, from marketing, from other museums into the business of running the place. So here we've got a range of Trustees. We've been we've recruited five or six in the last couple of years qquite deliberately to we know that a diverse board is a good board, and that's diverse in the sense not just a background, but of education, retired, still, still at work, young, old, male, female, you know, you name in.Paul Marden: In all of the directionsSam Mullins:  Yeah. So a diverse board makes better decisions than one that just does group think all the time. It's, you know, it's a truism, isn't it? I think we all kind of, we all understand and understand that now and then, for the trustee, you know, for me, I particularly last couple of years, when the organization has been through huge changes, it's been really interesting to deploy my prior experience, particularly in governance, because governance is what it all comes down to in an organisation. You do learn over the course of your career to deploy that on behalf, you know, this is a great organisation, the story of Brunel and the ship and and, you know, his influence on the railways. And I travel down on the Great Western railways, yeah, the influence of Brunel is, you know, is enormous. It's a fantastic story. It's inspiring. So who wouldn't want to join? You know what in 2005 was the Museum of the year? Yes, I think we'll just go back there where we came. Otherwise, I never found my way.Paul Marden: Back through the kitchen. Sam Mullins: Back through the kitchen. It looks like stew is on the menu tonight. You've seen me at the mobile the rat.Paul Marden: And also the cat up on the shelf. He's not paying a lot of attention to the ratSam Mullins: Back on deck. Paul Marden: Wonderful. Yeah. So the other great endeavor that you've embarked on is writing, writing a book. Tell us a little bit about the book.Sam Mullins: Yeah, I've written a history of transport in London and its influence on London since 2000 since the mayoralty, elected mayoralty was, was started, you know, I was very lucky when I was running the museum where I had kind of one foot in TfL and one foot out. I knew lots of people. I was there for a long time, yes, so it was, it was easy to interview about 70 of them.Paul Marden: Right? I guess you've built trust levels, haven't you? Yeah, I don't mean that you don't look like a journalist walking in from the outside with an ax to grind. Sam Mullins: And I'm not going to kind of screw them to the Evening Standard, you know, tomorrow. So it's a book based on interviews, oral reminiscences. It's very much their story. So it's big chunks of their accounts of, you know, the big events in London. So what was it like to be in the network control room on the seventh of July, 2005 when the bombs went off? What was it like to be looking out for congestion charge the day it started? Yep. What was it like to kind of manage the Olympics?Paul Marden: You know? So you're mentioning these things. And so I was 10 years at British Airways. I was an IT project manager, but as well, I was a member of the emergency planning team. Yeah. So I got involved in the response to September the 11th. I got involved in some of the engagement around seven, seven, there's seminal moments, and I can, I can vividly remember myself being there at that time. But similarly, I can remember being there when we won the Olympics, and we were all sat in the staff canteen waiting to hear whether we'd won the Olympics, and the roar that erupted. There's so many of those things that have happened in the last 25 years where, you know, you've got, it's recent history, but it's real interesting events that have occurred that you can tell stories of.Sam Mullins: Yeah. So what I wanted to get in the book was a kind of sense of what it was like to be, really at the heart of those, those stories. And there are, you know, there are, there are people in TfL who made those big things happen? Yes, it's not a big, clumsy bureaucracy. It's a place where really innovative leadership was being exercised all the way through that 25 years. Yes, so it runs up to COVID, and what was it like when COVID struck? So the book's called Every Journey Matters, and it comes out in November.Paul Marden: Amazing, amazing. So we have, we've left the insides of the ship, and we are now under, what's this part of the ship? Sam Mullins: We're under the bow. There we go, and a bow spread that gets above our heads. So again, you've got this great, hulking, cast iron, black hull, beautifully shaped at the bow. Look the way it kind of tapers in and it tapers in and out.Paul Marden: It's a very three dimensional, isn't it? The curve is, is in every direction. Sam Mullins: Yeah,it's a great, great shape. So it's my sort of, I think it's my favourite spot. I like coming to look at this, because this is the kind of, this is the business, yeah, of the ship.Paul Marden: What have we got running along the front here? These these images in in gold.Sam Mullins: This is a figurehead with Victoria's Coat of Arms only sua Kim Ali points on top with it, with a lion and a unicorn.Paul Marden: It's a really, it's not a view that many people would have ever seen, but it is such an impressive view here looking up, yeah, very, very cool. And to stand here on the on the edge of the dry dock. Sam Mullins: Dry Docks in to our right, and the floating harbor is out to our left. Yeah.Paul Marden: And much going on on that it's busy today, isn't it? Sam Mullins: Yeah, it's good. Paul Marden: So we've done full loop, haven't we? I mean, it has been a whistle stop tour that you've taken me on, but I've loved every moment of this. We always ask our guests a difficult question. Well, for some it's a difficult question, a book recommendation, which, as we agreed over lunch, cannot be your own book. I don't think, I think it's a little unfair Sam Mullins: Or anything I've ever written before.Paul Marden: Yes, slightly self serving, but yeah.Sam Mullins: It would be, wouldn't it look the first thing that comes to mind is, I've actually been reading my way through Mick Herron's Slow Horses series, okay, which I'm a big fan of detective fiction. I love Ian Rankin's Rebus. Okay, I read through Rebus endlessly when I want something just to escape into the sloughhouse series Slow Horses is really good, and the books all have a sort of similar kind of momentum to them. Something weird happens in the first few chapters, which seems very inconsequential and. Suddenly it turns into this kind of roller coaster. Will they? Won't they? You know, ending, which is just great. So I recommend Mick Herron's series. That's that's been the best, not best, fiction I've read in a long time.Paul Marden: You know, I think there's something, there's something nice, something comforting, about reading a series of books where the way the book is structured is very similar. You can, you can sit down and you know what's going to happen, but, but there's something interesting, and it's, it's easy. Sam Mullins: It's like putting on a pair of old slippers. Oh, I'm comfortable with this. Just lead me along. You know, that's what, that's what I want. I enjoy that immensely.Paul Marden: And should we be? Should we be inviting our listeners to the first book in the series, or do they need to start once, once he's got his, got his, found his way? Sam Mullins: Well, some people would have seen the television adaptation already. Well, that will have spoilt the book for them. Gary Oldman is Jackson lamb, who's the lead character, okay, but if you haven't, or you just like a damn good read, then you start with the first one, which I think is called Sloughhouse. They're all self contained, but you can work your way through them. Paul Marden: Well, that sounds very good. So listeners, if you'd like a copy of Sam's book, not Sam's book, Sam's book recommendation, then head over to Bluesky and repost the show notice and say, I want a copy of Sam's book, and the first one of you lovely listeners that does that will get a copy sent to you by Wenalyn. Sam This has been delightful. I hope listeners have enjoyed this as much as I have. This is our first time having a @skipthequeue in real life, where we wandered around the attraction itself and hopefully narrated our way bringing this amazing attraction to life. I've really enjoyed it. I can now say that as a West Country lad, I have actually been to the SS Great Britain. Last thing to say for visitor, for listeners, we are currently midway through the Rubber Cheese Annual Survey of visitor attraction websites. Paul Marden: If you look after an attraction website and you'd like to share some information about what you do, we are gathering all of that data together to produce a report that helps people to understand what good looks like for an attraction website. This is our fourth year. Listeners that are interested, head over to RubberCheese.com/survey, and you can find out a little bit more about the survey and some of the some of the findings from the past and what we're looking for for this year. Sam, thank you so very much.Sam Mullins: Enjoyed it too. It's always good to rabbit on about what you do every day of the week, and being here and part of this really great organisation is huge privilege.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 9th July 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Matthew Tanner, Vice President of AIM and Independent Consultant https://aim-museums.co.uk/Richard Morsley, CEO of Chatham Historic Dockyardhttps://thedockyard.co.uk/Hannah Prowse, CEO, Portsmouth Historic Quarterhttps://portsmouthhq.org/Dominic Jones, CEO Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/Andrew Baines, Executive Director, Museum Operations, National Museum of the Royal Navyhttps://www.nmrn.org.uk/ Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. The podcast of people working in and working with visitor attractions, and today you join me in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. I am actually in the shadow of HMS Victory at the moment, right next door to the Mary Rose. And I'm at the Association of Independent Museum's annual conference, and it is Wednesday night, and we're just about to enjoy the conference dinner. We've been told by Dominic Jones, CEO of Mary Rose, to expect lots of surprises and unexpected events throughout the meal, which I understand is a walking meal where we'll partake of our food and drink as we're wandering around the museum itself, moving course to course around different parts of the museum. So that sounds very exciting. Paul Marden:  Today's episode, I'm going to be joined by a I don't know what the collective noun is, for a group of Maritime Museum senior leaders, but that's what they are, and we're going to be talking about collaboration within and between museums, especially museums within the maritime sector. Is this a subject that we've talked about a lot previously? I know we've had Dominic Jones before as our number one most listened episode talking about collaboration in the sector, but it's a subject I think is really worthwhile talking about. Paul Marden: Understanding how museums work together, how they can stretch their resources, increase their reach by working together and achieving greater things than they can do individually. I do need to apologise to you, because it's been a few weeks since our last episode, and there's been lots going on in Rubber Cheese HQ, we have recently become part of a larger organisation, Crowd Convert, along with our new sister organisation, the ticketing company, Merac.Paul Marden:  So there's been lots of work for me and Andy Povey, my partner in crime, as we merge the two businesses together. Hence why there's been a little bit of a lapse between episodes. But the good news is we've got tonight's episode. We've got one more episode where I'll be heading down to Bristol, and I'll talk a little bit more about that later on, and then we're going to take our usual summer hiatus before we start the next season. So two more episodes to go, and I'm really excited. Paul Marden:  Without further ado, I think it's time for us to meet our guests tonight. Let me welcome our guests for this evening. Matthew Tanner, the Vice President of AIM and an Independent Consultant within the museum sector. You've also got a role within international museums as well. Matthew, remind me what that was.Matthew Tanner: That's right, I was president of the International Congress of Maritime Museums.Paul Marden: And that will be relevant later. I'm sure everyone will hear. Richard Morsley, CEO of Chatham Historic Dockyard Trust. I've got Hannah Prowse with me, the CEO of Portsmouth Historic Quarter, the inimitable chief cheerleader for Skip the Queue Dominic Jones, CEO of Mary Rose Trust.Dominic Jones: Great to be back.Paul Marden: I expect this to be the number one episode because, you know, it's got to knock your previous episode off the hit list.Dominic Jones: Listen with guests like this. It's going to be the number one. You've got the big hitters, and you've even got one more to go. This is gonna be incredible.Paul Marden:  Exactly. And I've got Andrew Baines, the Executive Director Museum Operations at the National Museum of the Royal Navy. That's quite a title.Dominic Jones: He loves a title that's a lot shorter than the last.Paul Marden: Okay, so we always have icebreakers. And actually, it must be said, listeners, you, unless you're watching the YouTube, we've got the the perfect icebreaker because we've started on Prosecco already. So I'm feeling pretty lubed up. Cheers. So icebreakers, and I'm going to be fair to you, I'm not going to pick on you individually this time, which is what I would normally do with my victims. I'm going to ask you, and you can chime in when you feel you've got the right answer. So first of all, I'd like to hear what the best concert or festival is that you've been to previously.Hannah Prowse: That's really easy for me, as the proud owner of two teenage daughters, I went Tay Tay was Slay. Slay. It was amazing. Three hours of just sheer performative genius and oh my god, that girl stamina. It was just insane. So yeah, it's got to be Tay Tay.Paul Marden: Excellent. That's Taylor Swift. For those of you that aren't aware and down with the kids, if you could live in another country for a year, what would Dominic Jones: We not all answer the gig. I've been thinking of a gig. Well, I was waiting. Do we not all answer one, Rich has got a gig. I mean, you can't just give it to Hannah. Richard, come in with your gig.Richard Morsley: Thank you. So I can't say it's the best ever, but. It was pretty damn awesome. I went to see pulp at the O2 on Saturday night. They were amazing. Are they still bringing it? They were amazing. Incredible. Transport me back.Matthew Tanner:  Members mentioned the Mary Rose song. We had this.Dominic Jones: Oh, come on, Matthew, come on. That was brilliant. That was special. I mean, for me, I'm not allowed to talk about it. It's probably end ups. But you know, we're not allowed to talk you know, we're not allowed to talk about other than here. But I'm taking my kids, spoiler alert, if you're listening to see Shawn Mendes in the summer. So that will be my new favourite gig, because it's the first gig for my kids. So I'm very excited about that. That's amazing. Amazing. Andrew, any gigs?Andrew Baines: It has to be Blondie, the amazing. Glen Beck writing 2019, amazing.Dominic Jones:  Can you get any cooler? This is going to be the number one episode, I can tell.Paul Marden:  Okay, let's go with number two. If you could live in another country for a year, which one would you choose? Hannah Prowse: Morocco. Paul Marden: Really? Oh, so you're completely comfortable with the heat. As I'm wilting next.Hannah Prowse: Completely comfortable. I grew up in the Middle East, my as an expat brat, so I'm really happy out in the heat. I just love the culture, the art, the landscape, the food, the prices, yeah, Morocco. For me, I thinkMatthew Tanner: I've been doing quite a lot of work recently in Hong Kong. Oh, wow. It's this amazing mix of East and West together. There's China, but where everybody speaks English, which is fantastic.Dominic Jones:  I lived in Hong Kong for a few years, and absolutely loved it. So I do that. But I think if I could choose somewhere to live, it's a it's a bit of cheating answer, because the country's America, but the place is Hawaii, because I think I'm meant for Hawaii. I think I've got that sort of style with how I dress, not today, because you are but you can get away with it. We're hosting, so. Paul Marden:  Last one hands up, if you haven't dived before, D with Dom.Dominic Jones: But all of your listeners can come Dive the 4d at the Mary Rose in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, as well as the other amazing things you can do here with our friends and National Museum of Portsmouth Historic Quarter, he will cut this bit out.Paul Marden:  Yeah, there will be a little bit of strict editing going on. And that's fair. So we want to talk a little bit today about collaboration within the Maritime Museum collective as we've got. I was saying on the intro, I don't actually know what the collective noun is for a group of Maritime Museum leaders, a wave?Hannah Prowse: A desperation?Paul Marden: Let's start with we've talked previously. I know on your episode with Kelly, you talked about collaboration here in the dockyard, but I think it's really important to talk a little bit about how Mary Rose, Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and the National Museum of the Royal Navy all work together. So talk a little bit for listeners that don't know about the collaboration that you've all got going. Dominic Jones:  We've got a wonderful thing going on, and obviously Hannah and Andrew will jump in. But we've got this great site, which is Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. We've got Portsmouth Historic Quarter that sort of curates, runs, owns the site, and I'll let Hannah come into that. We've got the Mary Rose, which is my favourite, amazing museum, and then we've got all of the museums and ships to the National Museum of the Royal Navy. But do you want to go first, Hannah, and talk about sort of what is Portsmouth Historic Quarter and the dockyard to you? Hannah Prowse:  Yeah, so at Portsmouth Historic Quarter, we are the landlords of the site, and ultimately have custody of this and pretty hard over on the other side of the water. And it's our job to curate the space, make sure it's accessible to all and make it the most spectacular destination that it can be. Where this point of debate interest and opportunity is around the destination versus attraction debate. So obviously, my partners here run amazing attractions, and it's my job to cite those attractions in the best destination that it can possibly be.Matthew Tanner: To turn it into a magnet that drawsDominic Jones: And the infrastructure. I don't know whether Hannah's mentioned it. She normally mentions it every five seconds. Have you been to the new toilets? Matthew, have you been to these new toilets?Paul Marden: Let's be honest, the highlight of a museum. Richard Morsley: Yeah, get that wrong. We're in trouble.Hannah Prowse: It's very important. Richard Morsley: But all of the amazing ships and museums and you have incredible.Paul Marden: It's a real draw, isn't it? And you've got quite a big estate, so you you've got some on the other side of the dockyard behind you with boat trips that we take you over.Andrew Baines:  Absolutely. So we run Victor here and warrior and 33 on the other side of the hub with the Royal Navy submarine museum explosion working in partnership with BHQ. So a really close collaboration to make it as easy as possible for people to get onto this site and enjoy the heritage that we are joint custodians of. Paul Marden:  Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing. So we're talking a little bit about museums collaborating together, which really is the essence of what we're here for conference, isn't it? I remember when we had the keynote this morning, we were talking about how important it is for everybody to come together. There's no egos here. Everyone's sharing the good stuff. And it was brilliant as well. Given that you're all maritime museums, is it more important for you to differentiate yourselves from one another and compete, or is it more important for you to collaborate?Richard Morsley: Well, from my perspective, it's there is certainly not competitive. I think there's sufficient, I was sufficient distance, I think, between the the attractions for that to be the case, and I think the fact we're all standing here today with a glass of wine in hand, with smiles on our face kind of says, says a lot, actually, in terms of the collaboration within the sector. And as you say that the the AIM conference today that for me, is right, right at the heart of it, it's how we as an independent museum sector, all come together, and we share our knowledge, we share our best practice, and once a year, we have this kind of amazing celebration of these incredible organisations and incredible people coming together and having a wonderful couple of days. Matthew Tanner: But if I could step in there, it's not just the wine, is it rum, perhaps. The maritime sector in particular is one that is is so closely knit and collected by the sea, really. So in the international context, with the International Congress, is about 120 museums. around the world that come together every two years into the fantastic Congress meetings, the connections between these people have come from 1000s of miles away so strong, it's actually joy and reminds us of why we are so excited about the maritime.Paul Marden: I saw you on LinkedIn last year. I think it was you had Mystic Seaport here, didn't you?Dominic Jones: We did and we've had Australia. We've had so many. It all came from the ICM conference I went with and we had such a good time, didn't we saw Richard there. We saw Matthew, and it was just brilliant. And there's pinch yourself moments where you're with museums that are incredible, and then afterwards they ring you and ask you for advice. I'm thinking like there's a lady from France ringing me for advice. I mean, what's that about? I passed her to Andrew.Hannah Prowse: I think also from a leadership perspective, a lot of people say that, you know, being a CEO is the loneliest job in the world, but actually, if you can reach out and have that network of people who actually are going through the same stuff that you're going through, and understand the sector you're working in. It's really, really great. So if I'm having a rubbish day, Dom and I will frequently meet down in the gardens outside between our two offices with a beer or an ice cream and just go ah at each other. And that's really important to be able to do.Dominic Jones: And Hannah doesn't laugh when I have a crisis. I mean, she did it once. She did it and it hurt my feelings.Hannah Prowse: It was really funny.Dominic Jones:  Well, laughter, Dominic, Hannah Prowse: You needed. You needed to be made. You did. You did. But you know, and Richard and I have supported each other, and occasionally.Richard Morsley: You know, you're incredibly helpful when we're going through a recruitment process recently.Hannah Prowse: Came and sat in on his interview.Richard Morsley: We were rogue. Hannah Prowse: We were so bad, we should never be allowed to interview today. Paul Marden:  I bet you were just there taking a list of, yeah, they're quite good. I'm not going to agree to that one.Hannah Prowse: No, it was, it was great, and it's lovely to have other people who are going through the same stuff as you that you can lean on. Richard Morsley: Yeah, absolutely.Dominic Jones: Incredible. It's such an important sector, as Matthew said, and we are close, the water doesn't divide us. It makes us it makes us stronger.Matthew Tanner: Indeed. And recently, of course, there's increasing concern about the state of the marine environment, and maritime museums are having to take on that burden as well, to actually express to our puppets. It's not just about the ships and about the great stories. It's also about the sea. It's in excess, and we need to look after it. Paul Marden: Yeah, it's not just a view backwards to the past. It's around how you take that and use that as a model to go forward. Matthew Tanner: Last week, the new David Attenborough piece about the ocean 26 marathon museums around the world, simultaneously broadcasting to their local audiences. Dominic Jones: And it was phenomenal. It was such a good film. It was so popular, and the fact that we, as the Mary Rose, could host it thanks to being part of ICM, was just incredible. Have you seen it? Paul Marden:  I've not seen Dominic Jones: It's coming to Disney+, any day now, he's always first to know it's on. There you go. So watch it there. It's so good. Paul Marden: That's amazing. So you mentioned Disney, so that's a kind of an outside collaboration. Let's talk a little bit. And this is a this is a rubbish segue, by the way. Let's talk a little bit about collaborating outside of the sector itself, maybe perhaps with third party rights holders, because I know that you're quite pleased with your Lego exhibition at the moment.Richard Morsley: I was actually going to jump in there. Dominic, because you've got to be careful what you post on LinkedIn. There's no such thing as I don't know friends Exactly. Really.Dominic Jones: I was delighted if anyone was to steal it from us, I was delighted it was you. Richard Morsley: And it's been an amazing exhibition for us. It's bringing bringing Lego into the Historic Dockyard Chatham. I think one of the one of the things that we sometimes lack is that that thing that's kind of truly iconic, that the place is iconic, the site is incredible, but we don't have that household name. We don't have a Mary Rose. We don't have a victory. So actually working in partnership, we might get there later. We'll see how the conversation, but yeah, how we work with third parties, how we use third party IP and bring that in through exhibitions, through programming. It's really important to us. So working at a Lego brick Rex exhibition, an exhibition that really is a museum exhibition, but also tells the story of three Chatham ships through Lego, it's absolutely perfect for us, and it's performed wonderfully. It's done everything that we would have hoped it would be. Dominic Jones: I'm bringing the kids in the summer. I love Chatham genuinely. I know he stole the thing from LinkedIn, but I love Chatham. So I'll be there. I'll be there. I'll spend money in the shop as well.Richard Morsley: Buy a book. Yeah.Paul Marden: Can we buy Lego? Richard Morsley:  Of course you can buy Lego. Paul Marden: So this is a this is a magnet. It is sucking the kids into you, but I bet you're seeing something amazing as they interpret the world that they've seen around them at the museum in the Lego that they can play with.Richard Morsley: Of some of some of the models that are created off the back of the exhibition by these children is remind and adults actually, but mainly, mainly the families are amazing, but and you feel awful at the end of the day to painstakingly take them apart.Richard Morsley: Where is my model?Dominic Jones: So we went to see it in the Vasa, which is where he stole the idea from. And I decided to, sneakily, when they were doing that, take a Charles model that was really good and remodel it to look like the Mary Rose, and then post a picture and say, I've just built the Mary Rose. I didn't build the Mary Rose. Some Swedish person bought the Mary Rose. I just added the flags. You get what you say. Hannah Prowse: We've been lucky enough to be working with the Lloyds register foundation this year, and we've had this brilliant she sees exhibition in boathouse four, which is rewriting women into maritime history. So the concept came from Lloyd's Register, which was, you know, the untold stories of women in maritime working with brilliant photographers and textile designers to tell their stories. And they approached me and said, "Can we bring this into the dockyard?" And we said, "Yes, but we'd really love to make it more local." And they were an amazing partner. And actually, what we have in boathouse for is this phenomenal exhibition telling the stories of the women here in the dockyard.Richard Morsley: And then going back to that point about collaboration, not competition, that exhibition, then comes to Chatham from February next year, but telling, telling Chatham stories instead of. Hannah Prowse:  Yeah, Richard came to see it here and has gone, "Oh, I love what you've done with this. Okay, we can we can enhance, we can twist it." So, you know, I've hoped he's going to take our ideas and what we do with Lloyd's and make it a million times better.Richard Morsley: It's going to be an amazing space.Dominic Jones: Richard just looks at LinkedIn and gets everyone's ideas.Andrew Baines: I think one of the exciting things is those collaborations that people will be surprised by as well. So this summer, once you've obviously come to Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and experience the joys of that, and then you've called off on Chatham and another day to see what they've got there, you can go off to London Zoo, and we are working in partnership with London Zoo, and we have a colony of Death Watch beetle on display. Paul Marden:  Oh, wonderful. I mean, can you actually hear them? Dominic Jones: Not necessarily the most exciting.Andrew Baines: I'll grant you. But you know, we've got a Chelsea gold medal on in the National Museum of the Royal Navy for collaboration with the Woodlands Foundation, looking at Sudden Oak death. And we've got an exhibition with ZSL at London Zoo, which I don't think anybody comes to a National Maritime Museum or an NMRN National Museum The Royal Navy, or PHQ, PhD, and expects to bump into tiny little animals, no, butDominic Jones: I love that, and it's such an important story, the story of Victor. I mean, look, you're both of you, because Matthew's involved with Victor as well. Your victory preservation and what you're doing is incredible. And the fact you can tell that story, it's LSL, I love that.Andrew Baines: Yeah. And we're actually able to feed back into the sector. And one of the nice things is, we know we talk about working collaboratively, but if you look at the victory project, for example, our project conservator came down the road from Chatham, equally, which you one of.Richard Morsley: Our your collections manager.Paul Marden: So it's a small pool and you're recycling.Andrew Baines: Progression and being people in develop and feed them on.Matthew Tanner:  The open mindedness, yeah, taking and connecting from all over, all over the world, when I was working with for the SS Great Britain, which is the preserved, we know, great iron steam chip, preserved as as he saw her, preserved in a very, very dry environment. We'll take technology for that we found in the Netherlands in a certain seeds factory where they had to, they had to package up their seeds in very, very low humidity environments.Paul Marden:  Yes, otherwise you're gonna get some sprouting going on. Matthew Tanner:   Exactly. That's right. And that's the technology, which we then borrowed to preserve a great historic ship. Paul Marden: I love that. Dominic Jones:  And SS Great Britain is amazing, by the way you did such a good job there. It's one of my favourite places to visit. So I love that.Paul Marden:  I've got a confession to make. I'm a Somerset boy, and I've never been.Dominic Jones: Have you been to yoga list? Oh yeah, yeah. I was gonna say.Paul Marden: Yeah. I am meeting Sam Mullins at the SS Great Britain next next week for our final episode of the season. Matthew Tanner: There you go.Dominic Jones: And you could go to the where they made the sale. What's the old court canvas or Corker Canvas is out there as well. There's so many amazing places down that neck of the woods. It's so good.Paul Marden: Quick segue. Let's talk. Let's step away from collaboration, or only very lightly, highlights of today, what was your highlight talk or thing that you've seen?Richard Morsley: I think for me, it really was that focus on community and engagement in our places and the importance of our institutions in the places that we're working. So the highlight, absolutely, for me, opening this morning was the children's choir as a result of the community work that the Mary Rose trust have been leading, working.Dominic Jones:  Working. So good. Richard Morsley: Yeah, fabulous. Paul Marden:  Absolutely. Matthew Tanner: There's an important point here about about historic ships which sometimes get kind of positioned or landed by developers alongside in some ports, as if that would decorate a landscape. Ships actually have places. Yes, they are about they are connected to the land. They're not just ephemeral. So each of these ships that are here in Portsmouth and the others we've talked about actually have roots in their home ports and the people and the communities that they served. They may well have roots 1000s of miles across the ocean as well, makes them so exciting, but it's a sense of place for a ship. Hannah Prowse: So I think that all of the speakers were obviously phenomenal.Dominic Jones: And including yourself, you were very good.Hannah Prowse: Thank you. But for me, this is a slightly random one, but I always love seeing a group of people coming in and watching how they move in the space. I love seeing how people interact with the buildings, with the liminal spaces, and where they have where they run headlong into something, where they have threshold anxiety. So when you have a condensed group of people, it's something like the AIM Conference, and then they have points that they have to move around to for the breakout sessions. But then watching where their eyes are drawn, watching where they choose to go, and watching how people interact with the heritage environment I find really fascinating. Paul Marden: Is it like flocks of birds? What are moving around in a space? Hannah Prowse: Exactly. Yeah.Paul Marden: I say, this morning, when I arrived, I immediately joined a queue. I had no idea what the queue was, and I stood there for two minutes.Dominic Jones: I love people in the joint queues, we normally try and sell you things.Paul Marden: The person in front of me, and I said, "What we actually queuing for?" Oh, it's the coffee table. Oh, I don't need coffee. See you later. Yes.Dominic Jones: So your favourite bit was the queue. Paul Marden: My favourite..Dominic Jones: That's because you're gonna plug Skip the Queue. I love it.Dominic Jones: My favourite moment was how you divided the conference on a generational boundary by talking about Kojak.Dominic Jones: Kojak? Yes, it was a gamble, because it was an old film, and I'll tell you where I saw it. I saw it on TV, and the Mary Rose have got it in their archives. So I said, Is there any way I could get this to introduce me? And they all thought I was crazy, but I think it worked. But my favorite bit, actually, was just after that, when we were standing up there and welcoming everyone to the conference. Because for four years, we've been talking about doing this for three years. We've been arranging it for two years. It was actually real, and then the last year has been really scary. So for us to actually pull it off with our partners, with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, with Portsmouth Historic quarter, with all of our friends here, was probably the proudest moment for me. So for me, I loved it. And I'm not going to lie, when the children were singing, I was a little bit emotional, because I was thinking, this is actually happened. This is happening. So I love that, and I love tonight. Tonight's going to be amazing. Skip the queue outside Dive, the Mary Rose 4d come and visit. He won't edit that out. He won't edit that out. He can't keep editing Dive, The Mary Rose.Dominic Jones: Andrew, what's his favourite? Andrew Baines: Oh yes. Well, I think it was the kids this morning, just for that reminder when you're in the midst of budgets and visitor figures and ticket income and development agreements, and why is my ship falling apart quicker than I thought it was going to fall apart and all those kind of things actually just taking that brief moment to see such joy and enthusiasm for the next generation. Yeah, here directly connected to our collections and that we are both, PHQ, NRN supported, MRT, thank you both really just a lovely, lovely moment.Paul Marden: 30 kids singing a song that they had composed, and then backflip.Dominic Jones: It was a last minute thing I had to ask Jason. Said, Jason, can you stand to make sure I don't get hit? That's why I didn't want to get hit, because I've got a precious face. Hannah Prowse: I didn't think the ship fell apart was one of the official parts of the marketing campaign.Paul Marden: So I've got one more question before we do need to wrap up, who of your teams have filled in the Rubber Cheese Website Survey. Dominic Jones: We, as Mary Rose and Ellen, do it jointly as Portsmouth historic document. We've done it for years. We were an early adopter. Of course, we sponsored it. We even launched it one year. And we love it. And actually, we've used it in our marketing data to improve loads of things. So since that came out, we've made loads of changes. We've reduced the number of clicks we've done a load of optimum website optimisation. It's the best survey for visitor attractions. I feel like I shouldn't be shouting out all your stuff, because that's all I do, but it is the best survey.Paul Marden: I set you up and then you just ran so we've got hundreds of people arriving for this evening's event. We do need to wrap this up. I want one last thing, which is, always, we have a recommendation, a book recommendation from Nepal, and the first person to retweet the message on Bluesky will be offered, of course, a copy of the book. Does anyone have a book that they would like to plug of their own or, of course, a work or fiction that they'd like to recommend for the audience.Paul Marden: And we're all looking at you, Matthew.Dominic Jones: Yeah. Matthew is the book, man you're gonna recommend. You'reAndrew Baines: The maritime.Paul Marden: We could be absolutely that would be wonderful.Matthew Tanner: Two of them jump into my mind, one bit more difficult to read than the other, but the more difficult to read. One is Richard Henry. Dana D, a n, a, an American who served before the mast in the 19th century as an ordinary seaman on a trading ship around the world and wrote a detailed diary. It's called 10 years before the mast. And it's so authentic in terms of what it was really like to be a sailor going around Cape corn in those days. But the one that's that might be an easier gift is Eric Newby, the last great grain race, which was just before the Second World War, a journalist who served on board one of the last great Windjammers, carrying grain from Australia back to Europe and documenting his experience higher loft in Gales get 17 knots in his these giant ships, absolute white knuckle rides. Paul Marden: Perfect, perfect. Well, listeners, if you'd like a copy of Matthew's book recommendation, get over to blue sky. Retweet the post that Wenalyn will put out for us. I think the last thing that we really need to do is say cheers and get on with the rest of the year. Richard Morsley: Thank you very much. Andrew Baines: Thank you.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. Show references:  Anna Preedy, Director M+H Showhttps://show.museumsandheritage.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/annapreedy/Jon Horsfield, CRO at Centegra, a Cinchio Solutions Partnerhttps://cinchio.com/uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-horsfield-957b3a4/Dom Jones, CEO, Mary Rose Trust https://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jonesPaul Woolf, Trustee at Mary Rose Trusthttps://maryrose.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-woolf/Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director, Stephen Spencer + Associateshttps://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/stephen-spencerSarah Bagg, Founder, ReWork Consultinghttps://reworkconsulting.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/sarah-baggJeremy Mitchell, Chair of Petersfield Museum and Art Galleryhttps://www.petersfieldmuseum.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-mitchell-frsa-4529b95/Rachel Kuhn, Associate Director, BOP Consultinghttps://www.bop.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuhnrachel/  Transcriptions:Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. You join me today, out and about yet again. This time I am in London at Olympia for the Museums and Heritage Show. Hotly anticipated event in everybody's diary. We all look forward to it. Two days of talks and exhibitions and workshops. Just a whole lot of networking and fun. And of course, we've got the M and H awards as well. So in this episode, I am going to be joined by a number of different people from across the sector, museum and cultural institution professionals, we've got some consultants, we've got some suppliers to the industry, all pretty much giving us their take on what they've seen, what they're doing and what their thoughts are for the year ahead. So, without further ado, let's meet our first guest. Andy Povey: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thank you for giving us some of your time on what must be a massively busy day for you. I wonder if you could just tell the audience who you are, what you do, a little bit about what museums and heritage is, because not everyone listening to the podcast comes from the museum sector. Anna Preedy: Andy, thanks. This is a great opportunity and always really lovely to see your happy smiley face at the Museums and Heritage Show. So M and H, as we're often referred to as, stands for Museums and Heritage and we're a small business that organises the principal trade exhibition for the Museums and Heritage sector that could be broadened, I suppose, into the cultural sector. We also have the awards ceremony for the sector and an online magazine. So we are Museums and Heritage, but we're often referred to as M and H and we've been around for a very long time, 30 plus years. Andy Povey: Oh, my word. Anna Preedy: I know. Andy Povey: And what's your role within the organisation? Your badge says Event Director today. That's one of many hats. Anna Preedy: I'm sure it is one of many hats because we're a very small team. So I own and manage the events, if you like. M and H is my baby. I've been doing it for a very long time. I feel like I'm truly immersed in the world of museums and heritage and would like to think that as a result of that, I kind of understand and appreciate some of the issues and then bring everyone together to actually get in the same room and to talk them through at the show. So, yeah, that's what we're about, really. Andy Povey: In a shorthand and obviously the show. We're in the middle of West London. It's a beautifully sunny day here at Olympia. The show is the culmination, I suppose of 12 months of work. So what actually goes in? What does a normal day look like for you on any month other than May? Anna Preedy: Yeah, it was funny actually. Sometimes people, I think, well, what do you do for the rest of the year? You just turn up to London for a couple of days, just turn up delivering an event like this. And also our award scheme is literally three, six, five days of the year job. So the moment we leave Olympia in London, we're already planning the next event. So it really is all encompassing. So I get involved in a lot. As I say, we're a small team, so I'm the person that tends to do most of the programming for the show. So we have 70 free talks. Everything at the show is free to attend, is free to visit. So we have an extensive programme of talks. We have about 170 exhibitors. Anna Preedy: So I'm, although I have a sales team for that, I'm managing them and looking after that and working with some of those exhibitors and then I'm very much involved in our awards. So the Museums and Heritage Awards look to celebrate and reward the very best in our sector and shine the spotlight on that not just in the UK but around the world. So we have a judging panel and I coordinate that. So pretty much every decision, I mean you look at the colour of the carpet, that which incidentally is bright pink, you look at the colour of the carpet here, who made the decision what colour it would be in the aisles this year it was me. So I, you know, I do get heavily involved in all the nitty gritty as well as the biggest strategic decisions. Andy Povey: Fantastic. Here on the show floor today it is really busy, there are an awful lot of people there. So this is all testament to everything that you've done to make this the success that it is. I'm sure that every exhibitor is going to walk away with maybe not a full order book, but definitely a fistful of business cards. Anna Preedy: I think that's it, what we really want. And we sort of build this event as the big catch up and we do that for a reason. And that is really to kind of give two days of the year people put those in their diary. It's a space where people can come together. So you know, there'll be people here standing on stands who obviously and understandably want to promote their product or service and are looking to generate new business. And then our visitors are looking for those services and enjoying the talks and everyone comes together and it's an opportunity to learn and network and connect and to do business in the broadest possible sense. Really. Andy Povey: No, I think that the line, the big catch up really sums the show up for me. I've been. I think I worked out on the way in this morning. It's the 15th time I've been to the show. It's one of my favourite in the year because it is a fantastic mix of the curatorial, the commercial, everything that goes into running a successful museum or heritage venue. Anna Preedy: I mean, it's funny when people ask me to summarise. I mean, for a start, it's quite difficult. You know, really, it should be museums, galleries, heritage, visitor, attractions, culture. You know, it is a very diverse sector and if you think about everything that goes into making a museum or a gallery or a historic house function, operate, engage, it's as diverse as the organisational types are themselves and we try and bring all of that together. So, you know, whether you are the person that's responsible for generating income in your organisation, and perhaps that might be retail or it might be catering, it could be any. Any stream of income generation, there's going to be content for you here just as much as there's going to be content for you here. Anna Preedy: If you are head of exhibitions or if you are perhaps wearing the marketing hat and actually your job is, you know, communications or audience development, we try and represent the sector in its broadest scope. So there is something for everyone, quite. Andy Povey: Literally, and that's apparent just from looking on the show floor. So with all of your experience in the museum sector, and I suppose you get to see. See quite an awful lot of new stuff, new products. So what are you anticipating happening in the next sort of 6 to 12 months in our sector? Anna Preedy: I mean, that's a big question because, you know, going back to what were just saying, and the kind of different verticals, if you like, that sit within the sector, but I think the obvious one probably has to be AI, and the influence of that. I'm not saying that's going to change everything overnight. It won't, but it's. You can see the ripples already and you can see that reflected out here on the exhibition floor with exhibitors, and you can also see it in our programme. So this sort of AI is only, you know, one aspect of, you know, the bigger, wider digital story. But I just think it's probably more about the sector evolving than it is about, you know, grand sweeping changes in any one direction. Anna Preedy: But the other thing to say, of course, is that as funding gets more the sort of the economic landscape, you know, is tough. Undeniably so. So generating revenue and finding new ways to do that and prioritising it within your organisation, but not at the expense of everything else that's done. And it should never be at the expense of everything else that's done. And it's perfectly possible to do both. Nobody's suggesting that it's easy, nothing's easy but, you know, it's possible. Anna Preedy: And I think the show here, and also what we do online in terms of, you know, news and features, all of that, and what other organisations are doing in this sector, of course, and the partners we work with, but I think just helping kind of bridge that gap really, and to provide solutions and to provide inspiration and actually, you know, there's no need to reinvent the wheel constantly. Actually, I think it was somebody that worked in the sector. I'm reluctant to names, but there was somebody I remember once saying, well, know, stealing with glee is kind of, you know, and I think actually, you know, if you see somebody else is doing something great and actually we see that in our wards, you know, that's the whole point. Let's shine a spotlight on good work. Well, that might inspire someone else. Anna Preedy: It's not about ripping something off and it's not absolute replication. But actually, you know, scalable changes in your organisation that may have been inspired by somebody else's is only a good thing as well. Andy Povey: It's all that evolutionary process, isn't it? So, great experience. Thank you on behalf of everybody that's come to the show today. Anna Preedy: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it, I really genuinely do and there is nothing like the buzz of a busy event. Jon Horsfield: Yeah, My name is Jon Horsfield, I'm the Chief Revenue Officer of Cincio Solutions. Andy Povey: And what does Cincio do? Jon Horsfield: We provide F and B technology, so kiosks, point of sale payments, kitchen systems, inventory, self checkout to the museums, heritage zoos, aquariums and hospitality industries. Andy Povey: Oh, fantastic. So I understand this is your first time here at the Museums and Heritage Show. Jon Horsfield: It is our first time. It's been an interesting learning curve. Andy Povey: Tell me more. Jon Horsfield: Well, our background is very much within the hospitality. We've been operating for about 20 to 23 years within the sort of high street hospitality side of things. Some of our London based listeners may have heard of Leon Restaurants or Coco Di Mama, we've been working with them for over 20 years. But we're looking at ways of bringing that high street technology into other industries and other Verticals and the museums and heritage is a vertical that we've identified as somewhere that could probably do with coming into the 21st century with some of the technology solutions available. Andy Povey: I hear what you're saying. So what do you think of the show? What are your first impressions? Give me your top three tips. Learning points. Jon Horsfield: Firstly, this industry takes a long time to get to know people. It seems to be long lead times. That's the first learning that we've had. Our traditional industry in hospitality, people will buy in this industry. It's going to take some time and we're happy about that. We understand that. So for us, this is about learning about know about how the industry works. Everybody's really friendly. Andy Povey: We try. Yeah. Jon Horsfield: That's one of the first things that we found out with this. This industry is everybody is really friendly and that's quite nice. Even some of our competitors, we're having nice conversations with people. Everybody is really lovely. The third point is the fact that I didn't know that there were so many niche markets and I found out where my mother buys her scarves and Christmas presents from. So it's been really interesting seeing the different types of things that people are looking for. We've sort of noticed that it's really about preservation. That's one of the main areas. There's a lot of things about preservation. Another one is about the display, how things are being displayed, and lots of innovative ways of doing that. But also the bit that we're really interested in is the commercialization. Jon Horsfield: There's a real push within the industry to start to commercialise things and bring in more revenue from the same people. Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's all about securing the destiny so that you're not reliant on funding from external parties or government and you taking that control. So what do you do at Centrio that helps? Jon Horsfield: Well, first of all. First of all, I would say the efficiencies that we can bring with back office systems integrations. We're very well aware of what we do, we're also aware of what we don't do. So, for example, we're not a ticketing provider, we're a specialist retail and F and B supplier. So it's about building those relationships and actually integrating. We've got a lot of integrations available and we're very open to that. So that's the first thing. But one of the key things that we're trying to bring to this industry is the way that you can use technology to increase revenue. So the kiosks that we've got here, it's proven that you'll get a minimum average transaction value increase of 10 to 15%. Andy Povey: And what do you put that down to? Jon Horsfield: The ability to upsell. Okay, with kiosks, as long as, if you put, for example, with a burger, if you just have a nice little button, say would you like the bacon fries with that? It's an extra few pounds. Well, actually if you've got an extra few pounds on every single transaction, that makes an incredible difference to the bottom line. From the same number of customers. Some of our clients over in the USA have seen an ATV increase above to 60% with the use of kiosks. Andy Povey: And that's just through selling additional fries. Jon Horsfield: Exactly. People will. I went to a talk many years ago when people started to adopt kiosks and the traditional thing is the fact that people will order two Big Macs and a fries to a kiosk, but when you go face to face, they will not order two Big Macs and a fries. Andy Povey: So you're saying I'm a shy fatty who's basically. Jon Horsfield: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, Andy. Absolutely not. So that's really what it's about. It's about using the sort of the high street technology and applying that to a different industry and trying to bring everybody along with us. Dominic Jones: And you need to listen to the Skip the Queue. It's the best podcast series ever. It'll give you this industry. Paul Marden: Perfect. That was a lovely little sound bite. Dom, welcome. Dominic Jones: It's the truth. It's the truth. I love Skip the Queue. Paul Marden: Welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul, welcome. For your first time, let's just start with a quick introduction. Dom, tell everybody about yourself. Dominic Jones: So I'm Dominic Jones, I'm the chief executive of the Mary Rose Trust and I'm probably one of Skip the Queue's biggest fans. Paul Marden: I love it. And biggest stars. Dominic Jones: Well, I don't know. At one point I was number one. Paul Marden: And Paul, what about yourself? What's your world? Paul Woolf: Well, I'm Paul Woolf, I've just joined the Mary Rose as a trustee. Dom's been kind of hunting me down politely for a little bit of time. When he found out that I left the King's Theatre, he was very kind and said, right, you know, now you've got time on your hands, you know, would you come over and help? So yeah, so my role is to support Dom and to just help zhuzh things up a bit, which is kind of what I do and just bring some new insights into the business and to develop It a bit. And look at the brand, which is where my skills. Dominic Jones: Paul is underselling himself. He is incredible. And the Mary Rose Trust is amazing. You haven't visited. You should visit. We're in Portsmouth Historic Dock blog. But what's great about it is it's about attracting great people. I'm a trustee, so I'm a trustee for good whites. I'm a trustee for pomp in the community. I know you're a trustee for kids in museums. I love your posts and the fact that you come visit us, but it's about getting the right team and the right people and Paul has single handedly made such a difference to performance art in the country, but also in Portsmouth and before that had a massive career in the entertainment. So we're getting a talent. It's like getting a Premiership player. And we got Paul Woolf so I am delighted. Dominic Jones: And we brought him here to the Museum Heritage show to say this is our industry because we want him to get sucked into it because he is going to be incredible. You honestly, you'll have a whole episode on him one day. Paul Marden: And this is the place to come, isn't it? Such a buzz about the place. Paul Woolf: I've gone red. I've gone red. Embarrassed. Paul Marden: So have you seen some talks already? What's been impressive for you so far, Paul? Paul Woolf: Well, we did actually with the first talk we were listening to was all about touring and reducing your environmental impact on touring, which is quite interesting. And what I said there was that, you know, as time gone by and we had this a little bit at theatre actually. But if you want to go for grant funding today, the first question on the grant funding form, almost the first question after the company name and how much money you want is environmental impact. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Paul Woolf: And so if you're going tour and we're looking now, you know, one of the things that Dom and I have been talking about is, you know, Mary Rose is brilliant. It's fantastic. You know, it's great. It's in the dockyard in Portsmouth and you know, so. And, and the Andes, New York, you know, everywhere. Dominic Jones: Take her on tour. Paul Woolf: Why isn't it on tour? Yeah. Now I know there are issues around on tour. You know, we've got the collections team going. Yeah, don't touch. But nonetheless it was interesting listening to that because obviously you've got to. Now you can't do that. You can't just put in a lorry, send it off and. And so I thought that was quite interesting. Dominic Jones: Two, it's all the industry coming together. It's not about status. You can come here as a student or as a CEO and you're all welcome. In fact, I introduced Kelly from Rubber Cheese, your company, into Andy Povey and now you guys have a business together. And I introduced them here in this spot outside the men's toilets at Museum and Heritage. Paul Woolf: Which is where we're standing, by the way. Everybody, we're outside the toilet. Dominic Jones: It's the networking, it's the talks. And we're about to see Bernard from ALVA in a minute, who'll be brilliant. Paul Marden: Yes. Dominic Jones: But all of these talks inspire you and then the conversations and just seeing you Andy today, I'm so delighted. And Skip the Queue. He's going from strength to strength. I love the new format. I love how you're taking it on tour. You need to bring it to the May Rose next. Right. Paul Marden: I think we might be coming sometimes soon for a conference near you. Dominic Jones: What? The Association of Independent Museums? Paul Marden: You might be doing an AIM conference with you. Dominic Jones: Excellent. Paul Marden: Look, guys, it's been lovely to talk to you. Enjoy the rest of your day here at M and H. Paul Marden: Stephen, welcome back to Skip the Queue. Stephen Spencer: Thank you very much. Paul Marden: For listeners, remind them what you do. Stephen Spencer: So I'm Stephen Spencer. My company, Stephen Spencer Associates, we call ourselves the Ambience Architects because we try to help every organisation gain deeper insight into the visitor experience as it's actually experienced by the visitor. I know it sounds a crazy idea, really, to achieve better impact and engagement from visitors and then ultimately better sustainability in all senses for the organisation. Paul Marden: For listeners, the Ambience Lounge here at M and H is absolutely rammed at the moment. Stephen Spencer: I'm trying to get in myself. Paul Marden: I know, it's amazing. So what are you hoping for this networking lounge? Stephen Spencer: Well, what we're aiming to do is create a space for quality conversations, for people to meet friends and contacts old and new, to discover new technologies, new ideas or just really to come and have a sounding board. So we're offering free one to one advice clinic. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Stephen Spencer: Across a whole range of aspects of the visitor journey, from core mission to revenue generation and storytelling. Because I think, you know, one of the things we see most powerfully being exploited by the successful organisations is that kind of narrative thread that runs through the whole thing. What am I about? Why is that important? Why should you support me? How do I deliver that and more of it in every interaction? Paul Marden: So you're Having those sorts of conversations here with people on a one to one basis. Stephen Spencer: Then we also are hosting the structured networking event. So all of the sector support organisations that are here, they have scheduled networking events when really people can just come and meet their peers and swap experiences and again find new people to lean on and be part of an enriched network. Paul Marden: Absolutely. So we are only half a day in, not even quite half a day into a two day programme. So it's very early to say, but exciting conversations, things are going in the direction that you hoped for. Stephen Spencer: Yes, I think, I mean, we know that the sector is really challenged at the moment, really, the fact that we're in now such a crazy world of total constant disruption and uncertainty. But equally we offer something that is reassuring, that is enriching, it's life enhancing. We just need to find better ways to, to do that and reach audiences and reach new audiences and just keep them coming back. And the conversations that I've heard so far have been very much around that. So it's very exciting. Paul Marden: Excellent. One of themes of this episode that we'll be talking to lots of people about is a little bit of crystal ball gazing. You're right, the world is a hugely, massively disrupted place at the moment. But what do you see the next six or 12 months looking like and then what does it look like for the sector in maybe a five year time horizon? Stephen Spencer: Okay, well, you don't ask easy questions. So I think there will be a bit of a kind of shaking down in what we understand to be the right uses of digital technology, AI. I think we see all the mistakes that were made with social media and what it's literally done to the world. And whilst there are always examples of, let's say, museums using social media very cleverly and intelligently, we know that's against the backdrop of a lot of negativity and harm. So why would we want to repeat that, for example, with generative AI? Paul Marden: Indeed. Stephen Spencer: So I heard a talk about two years ago at the VAT conference about using AI to help the visitor to do the stuff that is difficult for them to do. In other words, to help them build an itinerary that is right for them. And I think until everyone is doing that, then they should be very wary of stepping off the carpet to try and do other things with it. Meanwhile, whilst it's an immersive experience, it is not just sitting in, you know, with all respect to those that do this, A, you know, surround sound visual box, it is actually what it's always been, which is meeting real people in authentic spaces and places, you know, using all the senses to tell stories. So I think we will need to see. Stephen Spencer: I've just been given a great coffee because that's the other thing we're offering in the coffee. It's good coffee. Not saying you can't get anywhere else in the show, just saying it's good here. Yeah. I think just some realism and common sense creeping into what we really should be using these technologies for and not leaving our visitors behind. I mean, for example, you know, a huge amount of the natural audience for the cultural sector. You know, people might not want to hear it, but we all know it's true. It's older people. And they aren't necessarily wanting to have to become digital natives to consume culture. So we shouldn't just say, you know, basically, unless you'll download our app, unless you'll do everything online, you're just going to be left behind. That's crazy. It doesn't make good business sense and it's not right. Stephen Spencer: So I just think some common sense and some. Maybe some regulation that will happen around uses of AI that might help and also, you know, around digital harms and just getting back to some basics. I was talking to a very old colleague earlier today who had just come back from a family holiday to Disney World, and he said, you know, you can't beat it, you cannot beat it. For that is immersive. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But it's not sealed in a box. Stephen Spencer: No, no. And it really. It's a bit like Selfridges. I always took out. My favourite store is Selfridges. It still does what Harry Gordon Selfridge set out to do. He said, "Excite the mind and the hand will reach for the pocket." I always say. He didn't say excite the eye, he said, excite the mind. Paul Marden: Yeah. Stephen Spencer: The way you do that is through all the senses. Paul Marden: Amazing. Stephen Spencer: And so, you know, digital. I'm sure he'd be embracing that. He would be saying, what about the rest of it? Paul Marden: How do you add the human touch to that? Yeah. I was at Big Pit last week. Stephen Spencer: As they reopened, to see this. Yeah. Paul Marden: And it was such an amazing experience walking through that gift shop. They have so subtly brought the museum into the gift shop and blended the two really well. Stephen Spencer: Yes. And I think that raises the bar. And again, if you want to make more money as a museum, you need to be embracing that kind of approach, because if you just carry on doing what you've always done, your revenue will go down. Paul Marden: Yes. Stephen Spencer: And we all know your revenue needs to go up because other. Other sources of income will be going down. Paul Marden: Sarah, welcome back to Skip the Queue last time you were here, there was a much better looking presenter than, you were in the Kelly era. Sarah Bagg: Yes, we were. Paul Marden: It's almost as if there was a demarcation line before Kelly and after Kelly. Why don't you just introduce yourself for me? Tell the listeners what it is that you do. Sarah Bagg: So I'm Sarah Bagg. I'm the founder of Rework Consulting. The last time I spoke, it wasn't that long after our launch. I think like two and a half years ago. We've just had our third birthday. Paul Marden: Wow. Sarah Bagg: Which is completely incredible. When we first launched rework, were specifically for the visitor attractions industry and focused on ticketing. Paul Marden: Yep. Sarah Bagg: So obviously we are a tech ticketing consultancy business. In the last three and a half years we've grown and now have five verticals. So attractions are one of them. Paul Marden: And who else do you work with then? Sarah Bagg: So the art, the leisure industry. So whether it be activity centres, cinemas, bowling centres and then live entertainment. So it could be anything from sports, festivals etc and the arts, like theatres or. Paul Marden: So closely aligned to your attractions. Then things that people go and do but different kinds of things loosely. Sarah Bagg: Say they're like live entertainment. Paul Marden: I like that. That's a nice description. So this must be Mecca for you to have all of these people brought together telling amazing stories. Sarah Bagg: I think how I would sum up museum and heritage today is that I think we're kind of going through a period of like being transformed, almost like back. People are reconstructing, connecting with real experiences and with people. Paul Marden: Yeah. Sarah Bagg: And I would like to think that tech is invisible and they're just to support the experience. I think there's a lot of things that are going on at the moment around, you know, bit nostalgia and people dragging themselves back to the 90s. And there's a lot of conversations about people and customer service and experience. And although technology plays a huge part in that, I would still like to think that people come first and foremost, always slightly weird from a technology consultant. Paul Marden: Well, nobody goes to a visitor attraction to be there on their own and interact with technology. That's not the point of being there. Yeah. Interesting talks that you've been today. Sarah Bagg: I think one of my favourite was actually one of the first of the day, which was about. Of how do you enhance the visitor experience through either like music and your emotions and really tapping into how you feel through, like all your different senses. Which was one of Stephen's talks which I really enjoyed. Paul Marden: That's really interesting. Sarah Bagg: I think if people like look at the visitor industry and across the board, that's why I'm so keen to stay, like across four different sectors, we can learn so much pulling ideas from like hospitality and restaurants and bars.Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: Even if you think about like your best, there's a new bar there, so you can not very far from my home in Brighton and the service is an amazing. And the design of the space really caters for whether you're in there with 10 people or whether you're sat at the bar on your own. It doesn't exclude people, depending on what age you are or why you gone into the bar. And I think we can learn a lot in the visitor attractions industry because there's been a lot of talk about families today. I don't have children and I think that there, you need. Sarah Bagg: We need to think more about actually that lots of other people go to visitor attractions Paul Marden: Completely. Sarah Bagg: And they don't necessarily take children and they might want to go on their own. Yes, but what are we doing to cater for all of those people? There's nothing. Paul Marden: How do you make them feel welcome? How do you make them feel like they're a first class guest? The same as everybody else. Yeah. So where do you see the sector going over the next few years based on what you've seen today? Sarah Bagg: I think there'll be a lot more diversification between sectors. There's definitely a trend where people have got their assets. You know, like if you're looking at things like safari parks and zoos, places that have already got accommodation, but maybe like stately houses where there used to be workers that were living in those cottages or whatever, that they're sweating their assets. I think it would be interesting to see where tech takes us with that because there has been a tradition in the past that if you've got like, if your number one priority to sell is being like your hotel, then you would have like a PMS solution. But if it's the other way around, your number one priority is the attraction or the venue and you happen to have some accommodation, then how is that connecting to your online journey? Sarah Bagg: Because the last thing you want is like somebody having to do two separate transactions. Paul Marden: Oh, completely drives me crazy. Sarah Bagg: One thing I would also love to see is attractions thinking beyond their 10 till 6 opening hours completely. Because some days, like restaurants, I've seen it, you know, maybe they now close on Mondays and Tuesdays so they can give their staff a day off and they have different opening hours. Why are attractions still fixated in like keeping these standard opening hours? Because actually you might attract a completely different audience. There used to be a bit of a trend for like doing museum late. So I was speaking to a museum not very long ago about, you know, do they do like morning tours, like behind the scenes, kind of before it even opens. And I think the museum particularly said to me, like, "Oh, we're fine as we are.". Paul Marden: I've never met a museum that feels fine where it is at the moment. Sarah Bagg: But I guess the one thing I would love to see if I could sprinkle my fairy dus. Paul Marden: Come the revolution and you're in charge. Sarah Bagg: And it's not like, it's not even like rocket science, it's more investment into training and staff because the people that work in our industry are like the gold, you know, it's not tech, it's not pretty set works, it's not like fancy display cases. Yes, the artefacts and stuff are amazing. Paul Marden: But the stories, the people stuff. Yeah. Sarah Bagg: Give them empowerment and training and make the customer feel special. Paul Marden: Yes. Sarah Bagg: When you leave, like you've had that experience, you're only ever going to get that from through the people that you interact with completely. Paul Marden: Jeremy, hello. Welcome to Skip the Queue. We are, we are being slightly distracted by a dinosaur walking behind us. Such is life at M and H show. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah. Paul Marden: So. Jeremy Mitchell: Well, anything to do with museums and dinosaurs, always great crowd pleasers. Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. So is this your first time at M and H or have you been before? Jeremy Mitchell: Been before, but probably not for 10 years or more. It was, yes. I remember last time I came the theatres were enclosed so they were partitioned all the way around. Paul Marden: Right. Jeremy Mitchell: But because it's so popular now that would not just not would not work. It's a long time ago. It shows how long I've been volunteering. Paul Marden: In museums, doesn't it? So for our listeners, Jeremy, just introduce yourself and tell everyone about the role that you've got at the Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: Okay, so I'm Jeremy Mitchell. I'm a trustee at Petersfield Museum now Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery. I'm actually now chair of trustees. Paul Marden: Paint a little picture for us of Petersfield Museum then. What could someone expect if they came to you? Apart from, as I understand, a very good cup of coffee. Jeremy Mitchell: A very good cup of coffee. Best in Petersfield. And that's not bad when there are 32 competitors. You'll get a little bit of everything you'll get a bit of. You'll get the story of Petersfield, but you'll get so much more. We've got collections of costume going back to the mid 18th century. We've got work of a local artist, Flora Torte, one of those forgotten female artists from between the wars. She's a story that we will be exploring. We've got, in partnership with the Edward Thomas Fellowship, a big archive of books and other artefacts by and about Edward Thomas, who was a poet, writer, literary critic. He's one of the poets killed in the First World War. But he's not well known as a war poet because he was writing about the impact of war on life at home. Jeremy Mitchell: So he's now more well known as a nature poet. Paul Marden: So you're telling the story not just of the place, you're telling the story of the people that have produced great art or had an impact on Petersfield. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. And their networks and how they might relate to Petersfield in turn. And we've got the costume collection I mentioned going back to the mid 18th century, which came from Bedale School. They've all got stories to them. Paul Marden: Interesting. Jeremy Mitchell: This came from Bedale School, which is a private school on the edge of Petersfield. It was actually collected by their drama teacher between the 1950s and the 1970s. Paul Marden: Wow. Jeremy Mitchell: Because she believed in authenticity. So if she was putting on a 19th century production, she would want genuine 19th century clothes. Paul Marden: Let me tell you, my drama productions in a 1980s comprehensive did not include authentic 19th century costumes. Jeremy Mitchell: If were doing something like that at school, their parents would have been, all right, go down to the jumble sale, buy some material, make something that looks something like it. Paul Marden: Yeah. Jeremy Mitchell: But no, she was, well, if you haven't got anything in your attic that's suitable, please send me some money because there's a sale at Sotheby's in three months. Time off costume from the period. Paul Marden: Excellent. Jeremy Mitchell: And we've got some lovely pieces in there. When we put on the Peggy Guggenheim exhibition, which is what were talking about earlier today here, were able to bring in costume from the 1930s, Chanel dress, other high quality, not. Not necessarily worn by Peggy Guggenheim, but her. Paul Marden: Authentic of the period. Jeremy Mitchell: Authentic of the period. But her son was at Bedale, so she could have been asked to donate. Paul Marden: So. Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Highly unlikely, but it was similar to items that she had been photographed in or would have been. Would have been wearing. Paul Marden: So tell me about the. The presentation. How was that? Jeremy Mitchell: It went so quickly. Paul Marden: Oh, yes. You get in the zone don't you? Jeremy Mitchell: You get in the zone. But it flowed and Louise was great. Louise had done the bulk of the. The work. She prepared the presentation that visually told the story of the exhibition and its outcomes and impacts. And I filled in the boring book, I call it the BBC, the boring but crucial. How we funded it, how we organised the project, management around it, the planning and getting buy in from the rest of the trustees at the beginning, because it was potentially a big financial commitment if we hadn't been able to fund it. Paul Marden: Isn't it interesting? So coming to an event like this is always. There's always so much to learn, it's always an enriching experience to come. But it's a great opportunity, isn't it, for a small museum and art gallery such as Petersfield? It feels a little bit like you're punching above your weight, doesn't it, to be invited onto this stage to talk about it. But really you're telling this amazing story and it's of interest to everybody that's here. Jeremy Mitchell: We want to share it. If we've been able to do it, then why can't they? Why can't you? Why can't we all do it? And yes, you need the story, but if you dig deep enough, those stories are there. Paul Marden: Absolutely, Absolutely. One of the things that is a real common conversation here, M and H, is looking forward, crystal ball gazing, talking. There's challenges in the sector, isn't there? There's lots of challenges around funding and I guess as a small museum, you must feel those choppy waters quite acutely. Jeremy Mitchell: Definitely. I mean, we're an independent museum, so we're not affected by spending cuts because we don't get any funding from that area. But the biggest challenge is from the funding perspective. Yes, we have a big income gap every year that we need to bridge. And now that so much more of the sector is losing what was its original core funding, they're all fishing in the same pond as us and they've got. Invariably they've got a fundraising team probably bigger than our entire museum team, let alone the volunteer fundraiser that we've got. So, yes, it is a challenge and you are having to run faster just to stand still. The ability to put on an exhibition like Peggy Guggenheim shows that we are worth it. Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Jeremy Mitchell: And the Guggenheim was funded by Art Fund Western loan programme and an Arts Council project grant. And it was a large Arts Council project grant. Paul Marden: So although everyone's fishing in the same pond as you're managing to yeah. To stretch my analogy just a little bit too far, you are managing to. To get some grant funding and. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. Paul Marden: And lift some tiddlers out the pond. Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. But it was quite clear that with Peggy it was a story that had to be told. Paul Marden: So we talked a little bit about challenging times. But one of the big opportunities at M and H is to be inspired to think about where the opportunities are going forwards. You've had a day here today. What are you thinking as inspiration as next big things for Petersfield Museum. Jeremy Mitchell: I'm finding that really difficult because we're small, we're a small site, Arkansas, I think has got to be a way forward. I miss the talk. But they're all being recorded. Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: So I shall be picking that one up with interest. But AR is something. We've got police cells. Well, we've got a police cell. Paul Marden: Okay. Jeremy Mitchell: Now, wouldn't it be great to tell an augmented reality story of Victorian justice to kids? Paul Marden: Yes. Jeremy Mitchell: While they're sat in a victory in a Victorian police cell on a hard wooden bench. That is the original bench that this prisoners would have slept on. Paul Marden: I've done enough school visits to know there's enough kids that I could put in a jail just to keep them happy or to at least keep them quiet whilst the rest of us enjoy our visit. Yes. I feel like I need to come to Petersfield and talk more about Peggy because I think there might be an entire episode of Skip the Queue to talk just about putting on a big exhibition like that. Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah, no, definitely. If you drop me an email you can skip the queue and I'll take you around. Paul Marden: Oh lovely, Rachel, welcome to Skip the Queue. You join me here at M and H show. And we've taken over someone's stand, haven't we? I know, it feels a bit weird, doesn't it? Rachel Kuhn: I feel like we're squatting but I. Paul Marden: Feel a little bit like the Two Ronnies, cuz we're sat behind the desk. It's very strange. Which one are you? Anyway, just for listeners. Introduce yourself for me. Tell listeners what it is that you do at BOP Consulting. Rachel Kuhn: Yeah, so I'm Rachel Kuhn, I'm an associate director at BOP and we specialise in culture and the creative economy and kind of working across everything that is to do with culture and creative economy globally. But I lead most of our strategy and planning projects, particularly in the UK and Ireland, generally working with arts, heritage, cultural organisations, from the very earliest big picture strategy through to real nitty gritty sort of operational plans and outside of bop. I'm a trustee for Kids in Museums, where we love to hang, and also a new trustee with the Postal Museum. Paul Marden: Given what you do at bop, this must be like the highlight of the year for you to just soak up what everybody is doing. Rachel Kuhn: I love it. I mean, it's so lovely just going around, chatting to everybody, listening in on the talks and I think that spirit of generosity, you know, like, it just comes across, doesn't it? And it just reminds me why I love this sector, why I'm here. You know, everyone wants to, you know, contribute and it's that whole sort of spirit of what do they say? We know when the tide rises, so do all the boats or all the ships. And I feel like that's the spirit here and it's lovely. Paul Marden: It is such a happy place and it's such a busy, vibrant space, isn't it? What have been the standout things for you that you've seen today? Rachel Kuhn: I think probably on that spirit of generosity. Rosie Baker at the founding museum talking about the incredible work they've done with their events, hires, programmes. Obviously got to give a shout out to the Association of Cultural Enterprise. I've been doing a lot of hanging out there at their stage day. So Gurdon gave us the rundown of the benchmarking this morning. Some really good takeaways from that and Rachel Mackay, I mean, like, obviously. Paul Marden: Want to go into. Rachel Kuhn: You always want to see her. Really good fun, but lovely to hear. She's talking about her strategy, the Visitor Experience strategy. And you know what, I spend so much time going into places looking at these sub strategies, like visual experience strategies that just haven't been written in alignment with the overall strategy. So it's lovely to see that linking through, you know, and obviously I'm from a Visitor Experience background, so hugely passionate about the way that Visitor Experience teams can make visitors feel the organization's values. And that alignment was really impressive. So, yeah, really lovely and loads of great takeaways from all those talks. Paul Marden: I will just say for listeners, all of these talks have been recorded, so everyone's going to be able to download the materials. It take a couple of weeks before they were actually published. But one of the questions that I've asked everybody in these vox pops has been, let's do some crystal ball gazing. It's. It stinks at the moment, doesn't it? The, the, the economy is fluctuating, there is so much going on. What do you see 6 to 12 month view look like? And then let's really push the boat out. Can we crystal ball gaze maybe in five years? Rachel Kuhn: Yeah.  I mean, look, I think the whole problem at the moment and what's causing that sort of nervousness is there's just a complete lack of surety about loads of things. You know, in some ways, you know, many organisations have welcomed the extension for the MPO round, the current round, but for many, you know, that's just pushed back the opportunity to get in on that round that little bit further away. It's caused that sort of nervousness with organisations are having to ride on with the same funding that they asked for some years ago that just doesn't, you know, match, you know, and it's actually a real time cut for them. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Rachel Kuhn: So I think, very hard to say, I don't know that there's much I can say. I feel like as at sea as everyone else, I think about what the landscape looks like in the next six months, but I think that never has there been, you know, a better time than something like this like the M and H show. You know, this is about coming together and being generous and sharing that information and I think reaching out to each other and making sure that we're sort of cross pollinating there. There's so much good stuff going on and we've always been really good at that and I think sometimes when we're feeling a bit down, it feels like, oh, I just don't want to go to something like this and meet others and, you know, get into a bit of a misery cycle. Rachel Kuhn: But actually it's so uplifting to be at something like this. And I think, you know, what we've seen here is at the show today, I think, is organisations being really generous with their experience and their expertise. Suppliers and consultants and supporters of the sector being really generous with their time and their expertise and actually just shows just spending a bit of time with each other, asking things of each other. We've just got loads of stuff to share and we're all really up for it. And I think that generosity is so critical and I mean, obviously I'm going to plug, I've got to plug it. Rachel Kuhn: So, you know, if you are a supplier, if you are a commercial business working in this sector, it might be tough times for you, but it's certainly nowhere near as hard as it is for the arts and cultural heritage organisations in the sector. You know, reach out to them and see how you can support them and help them. I mean, you and I have both been on a bit of a drive recently to try and drum up some sponsorship and corporate support for kids in museums who, you know, an Arts council MPO who we're incredible, incredibly proud to represent and, you know, do reach out to us. If you've been thinking, oh, I just want to sponsor something and I'd love to sponsor us. Paul Marden: Exactly. I mean, there's loads of opportunities when you take kids in museums as an example, loads of opportunities for. And this is what Arts Council wants us to do. They want us to be more independent, to generate more of our own funding and we've got a great brand, we do some amazing work and there's lots of opportunities for those commercial organisations who align with our values to help to support us. Rachel Kuhn: So I think you asked me there about what's in the next year. So next year, six months, I don't know is the answer. I think it's just a difficult time. So my advice is simply get out there, connect, learn from each other, energise each other, bring each other up. Let's not get into that sort of doom cycle. That's very easy next five years. You know what, I've had some really interesting meetings and conversations over the last. Well, one particularly interesting one today, some other ones about some funds that might be opening up, which I think is really exciting. You know, we've seen this really big challenge with funding, you know, slowing funding going in much larger amounts to a smaller number of large organisations and that causes real problems. But I think there might be a small turnaround on that. Rachel Kuhn: I'm not crumbs in the earth. I think it's still tough times. But that was really exciting to hear about. I'm also seeing here at the show today. I've been speaking to a lot of suppliers whose their models seem to be shifting a lot. So a lot more opportunities here where it requires no investment from the attraction and a lot more sort of interesting and different types of profit share models, which I think is really interesting. So I think the other thing I'd say is if you're an attraction, don't discount partnering some of these organisations because actually, you know, go and talk to them. Rachel Kuhn: Don't just, don't just count them out because you think you haven't got anything to invest because many of them are visiting new models and the couple that I've spoken to who aren't, learn from your competitors and start doing some different models. And I think that's been really interesting to hear some very different models here for some of the products, which is really exciting. Paul Marden: It is really hard sitting on the other side of the fence, as a supplier, we need cash flow as well. We've got to pay bills and all of those sorts of things. But you're right, there are interesting ways in which we all want to have a conversation. As you say, don't sit back afraid to engage in the conversation because you've got nothing to invest, you've got an important brand, you've got an audience. Those are valuable assets that a supplier like us would want to partner with you to help you to bring a project to life. And that might be on a rev share model, it might be on a service model. There's lots of different ways you can slice it and dice it. Rachel Kuhn: And going back, on a closing note, I suppose, going back to that generosity thing, don't think because you haven't got any money to commission, you know, a supplier to the sector or a commercial company, that you can't reach out to them. Like, you know, we are in this because we really want to support these organisations. This is our passion. You know, many of us are from the sector. You know, I will always connect somebody or introduce somebody or find a way to get a little bit of pro bono happening, or, you know, many of my colleagues are on advisory committees, we're board members. And I think that's the same for so many of the companies that are, like, working with the sector. You know, reach out and ask for freebie, you know, don't ask, don't get. Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. Rachel, it is delightful to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us on Skip the Queue and I am sure, I'm sure we'll make this into a full episode one day soon. I do say that to everybody. Rachel Kuhn: Thanks so much. Lovely to speak to you. Paul Marden: Andy. Andy Povey: Paul.Paul Marden: We've just walked out of the M and H show for another year. What are your thoughts? Andy Povey: First, I'm exhausted, absolutely exhausted. I'm not sure that I can talk anymore because I've spent 48 hours having some of the most interesting conversations I've had all year. Paul Marden: No offence, Tonkin. Andy Povey: You were part of some of those conversations, obviously, Paul. Paul Marden: I was bowled over again by just the sheer number of people that were there and all those lovely conversations and everybody was just buzzing for the whole two days. Andy Povey: The energy was phenomenal. I worked out that something like the 15th show, M & H show that I've been to, and I don't know whether it's just recency because it's sitting in the far front of my mind at the moment, but it seems like this was the busiest one there's ever been. Paul Marden: Yeah, I can believe it. The one thing that didn't change, they're still working on Olympia. Andy Povey: I think that just goes on forever. It's like the fourth Bridge. Paul Marden: Talks that stood out to you. Andy Povey: I really enjoyed interpretation One led by the guy from the sign language education company whose name I can't remember right now. Paul Marden: Yeah, Nate. That was an amazing talk, listeners. We will be getting him on for a full interview. I'm going to solve the problem of how do I make a inherently audio podcast into something that's accessible for deaf people? By translating the podcast medium into some sort of BSL approach. So that was the conversation that we had yesterday after the talk. Andy Povey: I know. I really look forward to that. Then, of course, there was the George and Elise from Complete Works. Paul Marden: I know. They were amazing, weren't they? You couldn't tell at all that they were actors. Do you know, it was really strange when George. So there was a point in that talk that George gave where we all had a collective breathing exercise and it was just. It was. It was so brilliantly done and were all just captivated. There must have been. I rechon there was 100 people at theatre at that point. Absolutely. Because it was standing room only at the back. And were all just captivated by George. Just doing his click. Very, very clever. Andy Povey: But massively useful. I've seen the same thing from George before and I still use it to this day before going on to make a presentation myself. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Andy Povey: Just grounding yourself, centering yourself. Well, it's fantastic. Paul Marden: Yeah. But the whole thing that they were talking about of how do we create opportunities to have meaningful conversations with guests when they arrive or throughout their entire experience at an attraction so that we don't just talk about the weather like we're typical English people. Andy Povey: That's great, isn't it? Go and tell a Brit not to talk. Talk about the weather. Paul Marden: But training your staff makes absolute sense. Training your staff to have the skills and the confidence to not talk about the weather. I thought that was really interesting. Andy Povey: It's an eye opener, isn't it? Something really simple, but could be groundbreaking. Paul Marden: Yeah. Andy Povey: Then what was your view on all of the exhibitors? What did you take away from all the stands and everybody? Paul Marden: Well, I loved having my conversation yesterday with Alan Turing. There was an AI model of Alan Turing that you could interact with and ask questions. And it was really interesting. There was a slight latency, so it didn't feel quite yet like a natural conversation because I would say something. And then there was a pause as Alan was thinking about it. But the things that he answered were absolutely spot on, the questions that I asked. So I thought that was quite interesting. Other exhibitors. Oh, there was a lovely point yesterday where I was admiring, there was a stand doing custom designed socks and I was admiring a design of a Jane Austen sock and there was just somebody stood next to me and I just said, "Oh, Jane Austen socks." Paul Marden: Very on Trend for the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen, that all of the museums in Hampshire will be buying those up. And should funnily you should say that I'm the chief executive of Chawton Park House, which is one of the museums in the last place that Jane Austen lived. So very interesting, very small world moment at that point. Andy Povey: I do, it's almost an oxymoron to talk about Jane Austen socks. I don't imagine her having worn anything with nylon or Lycra in it. Paul Marden: Very true. I hadn't tweaked that. Andy Povey: There was a lot of AI there wasn't there AI this, AI that. Paul Marden: And there were some really good examples of where that is being used in real life. Yeah, yeah. So there were some examples where there's AI being used to help with visitor counts around your attraction, to help you to optimise where you need to put people. I thought that Neil at Symantec just talking about what he called answer engine optimisation. That was interesting. There were some brilliant questions. There was one question from an audience member asking, are there any tools available for you to figure out whether how well your organisation is doing at being the source of truth for AI tools? Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. So almost like your Google search engine ranking. Paul Marden: But exactly for ChatGPT. Andy Povey: And have you found one yet? Paul Marden: No, not yet. There's also quite a lot of people talking about ideas that have yet to find a home. Andy Povey: Yes. What a very beautiful way of putting it. Paul Marden: The people that have. That are presenting a topic that has yet to get a real life case study associated with it. So the rubber hasn't yet hit the road. I don't think on that. Andy Povey: No. I think that's true for an awful lot of AI, isn't it? Not just in our sector. Paul Marden: No. Andy Povey: It's very interesting to see where that's all going to go. And what are we going to think when we look back on this in two or three years time? Was it just another chocolate teapot or a problem looking for a solution? Or was it the revolution that we all anticipate. Paul Marden: And I think it will make fundamentals change. I think it's changing rapidly. But we need more real case studies of how you can do something interesting that is beyond just using ChatGPT to write your marketing copy for you. Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean it's all about putting the guest at the front of it, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the technology, let's look at what the technology is going to enable us to do. And back to the first part of this conversation, looking at accessibility, then are there tools within AI that are going to help with that? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there was definitely. There was an interesting talk by Vox. The people that provide, they provide all of the radio boxes for everybody to wear at M and H that provides you with the voiceover of all of the speakers. But they use this technology across all manner of different attractions and they were talking about using AI to do real time translation of tours. So you could. Andy Povey: Very interesting. Paul Marden: Yeah. So you could have an English speaker wandering around doing your tour and it could real time translate up to. I think it was up to four languages. Andy Povey: BSL not being one of those languages. Paul Marden: Well, no, they were talking about real time in app being able to see subtitles. Now, I don't know whether they went on to say you could do BSL. And we know from the other presentation that not everybody that is deaf is able to read subtitles as fast as they can consume sign language. So it's important to have BSL. But there were some parts of that Vox product that did it address deaf people. It wasn't just multilingual content. Andy Povey: So AI people, if you're listening, you can take the idea of translating into BSL in real time and call it your own. Paul Marden: Yeah, we very much enjoyed hosting our theatre, didn't we? That was a lot. And Anna, if you are listening, and I hope you are, because lots of people have said very nice things in this episode about M and H. Andy and I would love to come back next year. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Paul Marden: And host a theatre for you. Any other thoughts? Andy Povey: Just really looking forward to the rest of the week off. Yeah, it's a sign of a good show when you walk away with all that positive feeling and that positive exhaustion and you probably need a week to reflect on all of the conversations that we've had. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Next up we is AIM Conference at Mary Rose in June. I can't wait very much. Looking forward to that. Thank you ever so much for listening. We will join you again in a few weeks. See you soon. Bye Bye. Andy Povey: Draw.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 21st May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Museum Wales website: https://museum.wales/Big Pit National Coal Museum: https://museum.wales/bigpit/Catherine Pinkerton LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-pinkerton-b1905a110/Catherine Pinkerton is the Group Retail Manager at Amgueddfa Cymru - Museum Wales.Having worked in senior management positions for some of the high street's most recognisable brands such as Harrods, Selfridges, Dior and Guerlain to name but a few, Catherine spent 20+ years in London building her management career. Catherine is now the Group Retail Manager for Amgueddfa Cymru (Museum Wales). She is responsible for the management of all aspects of retail operations and development, across the national museums of Wales. Catherine is currently leading on a transformation project to create immersive retail experiences in each of the museum shops, reflecting the visitor experience and collections of each of the varied museums.Guests Also Featured in This Episode:Anya Kirkby, Freelancer - Anya Kirkby Ltd – Product Development and Graphic Design anyakirkby@gmail.comArantxa Garcia, Freelancer - Exibeo VM Creative Studio – Shop Design and Visual Merchandising Arantxa@exhibeovm.co.ukNia Elias, Director Relationships and Funding, Amgueddfa Cymru nia.elias@museumwales.ac.ukGuy Veale, Freelancer – Freelancer - Sound artist/designer - gbveale@gmail.comAmy Samways, Shop Supervisor, Amgueddfa Cymru - amy.samways@museumwales.ac.ukKate Eden, Chair, Amgueddfa Cymru - Members of Board | Museum Wales Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden. So today you join me on the top of a mountain in Blaenavon in Wales at Big Pit, the National Mining Museum. I'm here today for a really special event. I've been invited to the opening of Big Pit's new Museum Retail experience, which is a programme of work that's being done by the Museums Wales Group to improve the sense of place and the sense of feeling for what could be a blueprint for the rest of the group. We're going to be joined by a number of different people that have taken part in the project and without further ado, let's get started on our tour of Big Pit. Catherine Pinkerton: Morning, everybody. Hello, welcome. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome you all today and I know there's been a lot of you'd have travelled far and wide, so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming to see the amazing store that we've created and I hope you love it. We're just going to cut the river now. Paul Marden: First up I've got Catherine Pinkerton, Group Head of Retail at Museum Wales. Catherine, welcome to Skip the Queue. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. Paul Marden: Absolute pleasure. And this is a corker of an episode. I think everybody is going to be really interested in finding out about the retail, the gift shop experience that you guys have introduced at Big Pit and then you're going to go wider into. Into Museums Wales. This is a really weird episode because you and I are recording the morning after the day before. So yesterday was the big launch event and I was with you at Big Pit and I've met lots and lots of people and we're going to cut to them throughout the episode and hear from those people that were taking part in the project. But you and I have got the benefit of having enjoyed yester today's event and we can look back on what that experience was like and talk a little bit about the project. Paul Marden: Before we do that, I think it would be really lovely for you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Museums Wales and Big Pit specifically. Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. Okay. So I'm Catherine Pinkerton. So I head up all of the retail stores within Amgueddfa Cymru, which is National Museums of Wales. I've been with the museum just under three years and I'm good that Cymru hosts seven sites. It's an incredible establishment to be part of and I think, you know, coming from a very commercial background, this is very different for me, but I think it's given me lots of insights into bringing kind of. Lots of. Kind of different skill sets, I guess, to this cultural sector. I think when I first initially joined Amgueddfa Cymru, there were lots of challenges. And that's not to say that we still have those challenges as they are in many of our museums. And I think coming from a retail background, it's. It's looking at something that's not. That's commercial, Paul.Catherine Pinkerton: That's key. But actually, how can we make it very collection and story based on our amazing assets that we hold within our museums? And I think that I felt was probably the biggest thing that was missing because I thought we've got these amazing exhibitions, these amazing collections, amazing, you know, opportunities, and how are we putting that into the retail structure and how do we offer that to us, you know, to our visitors? And I think. I think sometimes it may be. Have forgotten that you go around these amazing spaces and it's very based on that visitor focus and how can we make that visitor feel very happy and engaged. But actually the end part of that process is nearly always coming through, exiting through the retail space. Right. Catherine Pinkerton: And if they've had this amazing opportunity to go and, you know, a lot of investment in these amazing spaces, and then they come through that retail space which has some elements, but not all of what our collections hold, there's a confusion there. You know, that end piece. And for me, customer service and visitor experience is absolutely key to how they. How they finish and how they end their day. And if they're ending their day with something, oh, okay, I'll just have a magnet then. Because there's nothing really else here. Yeah, that pains me. That really hurts me. I think, come on, guys, we can do better than this. We are in an element of. We have our own assets, our own elements to be able to kind of display that. Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think very much it would be very easy and to take the kind of easy road of having, you know, let's. Let's pop a dragon on a mug and yeah, we're a Welsh museum. No, we're not. We have assets here. We have beautiful exhibitions, we have beautiful spaces. And actually looking from further afield into. In terms of an emotional connection. And I think, you know, for me, from all of my past kind of previous work, I'm working with Amgueddfa Cymru. It's probably been the most challenging to get perhaps senior management to understand a crazy way of Catherine Pinkerton working into a. What's emotional retail? What does emotive selling mean? This lady is crazy. What's she talking about? But actually, it's really basic, isn't it? Catherine Pinkerton: Because for me, if I take my daughter or my husband to any kind of day trip, I want to take something emotional that I've connected with home with me, and that's so simple. But actually, sometimes it's not thought about in that way. And, you know, for me, I'm all about the emotional connection. And I think we put so much investment in curatorial teams to kind of give that to our visitors. We need to end that. That end part is so important for them to finish, you know, that journey with that emotional connection that they can take home as a souvenir. So, yeah, I've probably said more than I needed to there, Paul, but.Paul Marden: Absolutely. So I think you're capturing the need to curate the. The ending experience because, you know, the nature of. The nature of people's memory is they remember the beginning and they remember the end and the bit that is in the middle is hugely important to the storytelling experience they have whilst they're at the attraction. But if you don't end on a high, then their emotional connection to you and the space and the stories they've heard is not going to be as impactful for them. Catherine Pinkerton:  Absolutely, totally agree. I think it's really key, and not just in the kind of, you know, the cultural sector, but in any sector, really. I think it's really important that connection is instant, really, because that is what you need to. That's the hook, isn't it, of getting that person, you know, and. And actually understanding what the visitor needs. I mean, it's very easy for me to say on a personal level, I'd love to have this collection of products within the shop, but actually, that's not what data tells us. That's not what our demographic tells know, you know. And they are the ones that are important. Our local communities, our demographic is key for us to be successful. Paul Marden: You know, so one of the things that I took from yesterday was the importance that you were moving away from being just any other generic Welsh gift shop to being a gift shop associated with the place. Yeah, that. That's the. That was the nub of I think, what you were trying to get to how do you go about doing that? How did you make it feel so much like a gift shop? About Big Pit? Catherine Pinkerton: It's taken a process of really pulling everything back and getting under the skin, what is the detail and the personality of the site. But actually it's talking to people and being humour. And Paul, you know, I think, very much, as I say, it'd be very ignorant for me to say this is what I think will work. And that's absolutely not what we want. What we want is for the visitors to say, I really. I mean, what was really interesting, actually, is that we did quite a lot of data analysis in terms of the demographics of customers that come through our sites. But also what was really key is areas of the sites that were really kind of, you know, three key areas that they really enjoyed or they really loved. Catherine Pinkerton:  And actually, one of the top ones was the pit ponies that they all love the pit ponies, they love talking about it, they love the stories that the mining team would talk about. It was a really inspiring, you know, inspirational moment for them to think, oh, my gosh, the pit ponies lived underground. This is really so, you know, I think in some respects that was probably missed in terms of our retail offer, because what we did after that is that we had a workshop with all our retail team and we almost did a little bit like a Dragon's Den effect. We said, right, these are the products that we have, right? Can you pick up out of these products, which products represent the pit ponies? Which products represent the shower rooms? Catherine Pinkerton: And actually, when you're talking to the teams in kind of a literal sense, there wasn't a lot within our retail offer that we already had. And I think it was a bit of a light bulb moment, really, for the retail team and said, “Oh, Kath. Right, I see, Yeah, I understand what you mean.” That's not represented in our retail offer. So what's represented currently was wonderful things and lots of Welsh kind of products. But actually, what. What makes that relatable to our site? And so I think what I wanted to do originally is just go on a journey and to kind of really, from a very basic stage, is understand what the site's POS was and actually understand what their personality was and what the curatorial team were trying to push forward as being their identity. Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think once we got the identity, we then broke that down into themes in terms of there's pit ponies. That's a huge part of the, you know, the exhibition. The other huge part of the exhibition were the canaries. So, you know, that was something that was talked about. There's a huge story around that. And then, you know, the kind of mining history and the community was massive. And actually that element was so important to me and the retail team to make sure that we got right. Because this is history, right? And this is. I come from both my grandparents were miners. So for me it was very much a, you know, a very emotional time for me to make sure that we got it right and that it was respectfully done. Catherine Pinkerton:  So that was really key in terms of how do we deliver this. That's really. That we are not stepping on people's toes. We're not profiting from something that was, you know, the strike range is very significant within what we've offered, but we really wanted to make sure that was respectful and that it was done in a tasteful way that people felt they could take a souvenir away, but know that was actually part of the exhibition. So it was those kind of areas that we really wanted to work. So once we have those themes in place in terms of what those looked like, it was then developing that and how do we develop that into an actual concept? Paul Marden: Yeah, and you've drawn in lots of people. You've already mentioned the kind of wide team that you brought in from Big Pit itself, but from the wider team in the group. Talk a little bit about what that experience has been like as a team. Who have you brought into this? Catherine Pinkerton:  So originally, when we wrote the retail concept and the retail strategy, you obviously have to kind of involve quite a lot of internal candidates to be able to allow them to believe that this journey and vision is a good one. And I'm super thankful. I've got the most amazing manager, Marc Simcox. He's the head of enterprises and he is incredible. He's very commercial, but very trusting in terms of understanding what the business should look like and actually giving that freedom to say, yeah, I think this can work. Kath. So you, you go ahead and that. That's huge. Right. We're not talking about a small project here. So that firstly was great for me. And then I think having the, you know, the opportunity to be able to get some key people. Catherine Pinkerton: And Matthew Henderson we've worked with previously and we've, you know, I knew straight away, for me, Matthew Henderson has gotten. Got a very unique way of working and we work very well together. We've got quite similar kind of ways of working, but I think that development and concept phase is really key and I think it really got to the point where we just sat in a room and kind of really understood what are we trying to achieve here, how can we achieve that? And really just making it very basic in terms of the key themes. And then in terms of product development, we brought on Anya Kirkby. So she is an illustrator and a very clever lady indeed. And we have worked with lots of illustrators and lots of suppliers over the years. Catherine Pinkerton: But what we wanted something for Big Pit was to be quite different in terms of the illustration and the product development. Because what we wanted to deliver with Big Pit was something that had been my vision since the very beginning when I started with Amgueddfa Cymru. And that is, you know, going into the shop and having those guidelines, you know, pricing guidelines, information guidelines, those small details which would probably mean nothing to the average person walking through, but actually a price ticket on something that's been illustrated pains me to see, because the work that's gone on behind that is so key. Catherine Pinkerton: And, you know, for most people not understanding that a price ticket on that is so I think those details are really key, Paul, and I think she really worked stringently with me to make sure that was, was, that was kind of a massive aspect of that role. And then Arantxa Garcia, who is just the most incredible designer. She's, she's a genius in what she does. She's incredibly creative and sometimes you have to kind of pull her back and say, okay, you want this? Okay, can you deliver this rancher? Paul Marden: Yeah. Catherine Pinkerton: And what was really interesting with a rancher is that, you know, she's got a huge, amazing CV of working with lots of people within the cultural sector and designing amazing, incredible pieces. But I think were very nervous because the, the original kind of renders that she sent through to us were quite amazing and impressive. And I said, arantha, are you able to deliver this under the kind of, you know, the budget? We've got a tight budget here. Paul Marden: That's the challenge, isn't it? Catherine Pinkerton: I mean, isn't it? Paul Marden: You do not want to be paying, you don't want to be offered the picture of a Maserati when you have got a Ford Fiesta budget, do you need to know that you can afford it. Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. And I think with Aranta, she was very, again, super creative lady. And I think I, as soon as I saw that image, I did say to her, right, you need to deliver this now. You've, you've committed to it, Arantia, so this needs to happen. And then finally, Richard Evans, who has, is hugely respected in the cultural sector and he really supported in terms of project management and the, you know, I hate to say this, and you won't mind me saying this, but the kind of boring kind of financial Gantt charts and keeping me in line actually. Right, Cath, we haven't got a budget for that. You can't spend that. Come on, Richard, make it work. Move some things around, you know. Catherine Pinkerton: So I think that was kind of the main area and then internally, Tracy Lucas, who was kind of my right hand woman, is our operations manager within Amgueddfa Cymru and she really supported me along with Amy, the shop manager, shop supervisor to really look at the product development. So I think, you know, and I think it was really nice actually to have them on board because I think it gave an opportunity for them to see what could be. And I think, you know, definitely in terms of retail, it's been an opportunity for us to be able to say, look, this, the impossible can be possible. Catherine Pinkerton: Actually this is an amazing project and I think what was really incredible is that when we decided to work on Big Pit, the Big Pit team and all of the mining team actually just came on board, Paul, they took it on board and I think the reason why they did that is that one of the mining teams said to me, he said, kath, you know, we never get any funding here. It's always in this big cities, you know, we, the Cardiff and it's never here, you know, we're just in the middle of nowhere. And I was like, absolutely not. That is not what this is about. It's about, you know, making sure that the community in that area is solid. Catherine Pinkerton: And I think the mining industry and they're very proud of that in terms of who works there, they're incredibly proud of what they do. And so because we chose that as our first project, they were so helpful in terms of, yeah, we're going to make this work, let's make it a success. Cath, how can we do that? What do you need from me? I mean at one point we had two of the mining staff pulling one of the drums which we upcycled out of it was like a lake or, yeah, I suppose a lake with a tractor. And I was like, this is crazy. This is crazy but just amazing that these team members are willing to do above and beyond to kind of go and help and support.Catherine Pinkerton: Dwayne Smith, finally I have to mention him because he went above and beyond. He, he's an electrical engineer for Amgueddfa Cymru and no feat was kind of Too hard for him. He helped us massively. He's got a huge team of people and anything that we needed done, I'm not, you know, I'm not a trades person, so anything Trady. I was like, Dwayne, yeah, I'm on it, Kath, I'll do it. Which is great because I was like, okay, yes, that was massively helpful, but huge learning curve, Paul. I feel I've never been so excited about drums in my entire working career as I am now. Paul Marden: And I never heard of one until yesterday. But what I found interesting was you see them all the way through the underground experience. I went down in the. The cage to the bottom of the pit head, did the whole tour. You talk about these drams and the importance of them and the transportation of the coal from throughout the mine back up to the top. And then you walk into the shop and it's subtle. The way that you've blended the museum into the shop is a subtle experience. It doesn't feel, it doesn't feel crude. But you've got a dram in the middle of the workshop. Now, I know it's a real one because we talked about it yesterday and I know the pains that you went through, but it's very subtle placed in there so that it doesn't feel crude. Paul Marden: It doesn't feel like you're trying to overwork the metaphor of the mine in the shop. It's very cleverly done. Catherine Pinkerton:  Oh, that's great, great, great to hear. Because that's absolutely what we did not want. And I think in terms of visual merchandising, actually, and picking up on your point there, is that it's very easy for us and this is something that we're doing in a different shop. It's very easy for us to look at some of our assets and pop them on a tote bag and say, there you go, that's done, we'll sell that. But actually, no, what can we do that's different? That's more kind of innovative? That's more creative. That is a hint or perhaps an opportunity for us to show and display something that is. Is then part of the visitors question. So when they're coming into store and they're speaking to our retail teams, they're questioning, is this a real drum? Catherine Pinkerton:  You know, and that is a conversation opener, isn't it? You know, and I think Kerry Thompson, who is the curator for Big Pit, he's a really inspiring man. I could listen to him all day. And he told me lots about kind of the drums and the history of Big Pit and the strikes. He's such an interesting man, but I think having the inspiration from him allowed us to make sure that we did it not in a crude way, actually, Paul, but that it was representative of the site, but not in a way that's, I guess, too obvious, you know. Paul Marden: Look, Kath, we could carry on talking for ages, but let's cut at this point to hear about some of the voices from the team that you worked with, your internal team, some of the partners that you worked with, about the experiences that they've had on the project. Paul Marden: So let's hear from some of the internal team members involved in the project. Firstly, we have Amy Samways, the retail supervisor at Big Pit, followed by Kate Eden, the chair of Museum Wales. And lastly, Nia Elias, the Director of Relationships and Funding at the Museum of Wales. Hey, Amy, how you doing? Lovely to meet you. What's your role at the museum, Amy? Amy Samways: I'm the shop supervisor for Big Pit. Paul Marden: What have you been doing in this whole project? I guess you've been integral to the whole kind of making it all about the place. Amy Samways: Yeah, so I've worked with Anya, who did all the products for the new shop. So we walked around all the exhibitions. We did a lot of underground visits and a lot of museum visits and just put things together. I've done a lot of work before this project for the last two years to try and get things more relevant to us and not just a Welsh souvenir shop. So a lot of those products stayed and then we just expanded them then. Paul Marden: So how do you go about looking for those products that make it local to here? Amy Samways: Well, we've got a fantastic exhibition at the top of the hill. We've got obviously our ex miners and we also have a lot of events through the times as well. So this year was a lot about the strike because obviously it's the 40th anniversary and we've got a massive exhibition down in Cardiff and also there's a smaller one up year as well. So we just walked through the museum and obviously, you know that disasters are obviously a big issue. We didn't want to make a big issue about those, but obviously they need. They're part of history, aren't they? So more books. We made sure we had books around that. And as you walk through, there's a lot of signs that the staff liked as well, because a lot of our guys have been done about the new projects with those as well on. Paul Marden: So do you then go looking for local suppliers to help you with that? And where do you find those? Amy Samways: Etsy, Facebook. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Amy Samways: Yeah, a lot of them. And also online. And then we've also. Because we work with a lot of suppliers as well, I'll say we need this and then they'll say, oh, you should ask so and so, and then we'll go and ask both. Paul Marden: Brilliant. So one of the things that's really interested me this year is talking to people that are running museum retail and that kind of process that goes from you as a buyer, having an idea, what do you want? How do you stock the shop? I think is really interesting process to go through, but flip it on the other side, as a local creator, you've got your thing and you want it in the shop. How do you get it found? Well, yeah, sticking it on Etsy is something that they're going to do, but then that might help them get into the museum. Amy Samways: Even if there is something that we want. Like at the minute, we're looking for NCB soap. Paul Marden: For what? Amy Samways: NCB soap. Paul Marden: What's that? Amy Samways: It's either bright green or bright pink and they used to buy it in the canteen shop and it's just imprinted with NCB. The guides have been asking and asking for it, but we have actually found a supplier now who's going to be working on it. So that should be coming this summer. Paul Marden: Wowzers. Amy Samways: Yeah. That's really exciting for you. Paul Marden:  What was the highlight? What's the one thing about this space, about the whole experience of the project. Amy Samways: That jumps out for me is seeing all the stock we've worked on and somebody actually buying it. Paul Marden:  And what is it that people are picking up? What are they walking in and gravitating to? Amy Samways: Anything Big pet, really. The little enamel little mugs have gone really well. I think the wording on those are great because it says they must not be removed from the premises. So our guides are loving those. And also our retro sign, which we had for our 40th anniversary and three years ago, but we kept it because it's such a brilliant design. It was the original from 1983 and it was on the original road sign as you drove in. So we've had that recreated and that sells really well. Paul Marden:  That's really interesting. So my wife with the family about 25, 30 years ago, came on a family holiday and they had the original guidebook that they picked up when they were here with the kind of the retro. Retro signage on there. Amy Samways: Yeah, we're back selling it again. Kate Eden: Yes, So my name's Kate Eden. I'm chair of the board of Amgueddfa Cymru. Paul Marden:  Tell me a little bit about your involvement in this project. Kate Eden:  As the board, we've been tracking the development of commercial and enterprises over the past year. Really. And really thrown our way, weight and support behind what the team has been trying to do here as a kind of flagship, really, for what we would all like the new benchmark to be across all of the seven sites of anger for Cymru. So seeing it all come together this morning has just been such a special experience. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm going to bring the rest of the board here as soon as I can so the trustees can see this and see the reaction of staff and of visitors as well, because it's a fabulous achievement and it shows us what we can do now as a national museum. Paul Marden: How well does it tie back into the original pitch at trustees? So I'm a trustee of a charity as well. The pressures that we're all under in terms of reducing funding and having to generate our own funding is so hugely important. This must be integral to the conversations that you were having as trustees. Did you have this in mind when you were signing off the agreement to spend the money? Kate Eden: Yeah. So I don't think anybody realised just how successful this could be. We'd had some mock ups and we'd had a presentation, so there was a lot of excitement and there was sort of the fledgling idea years. So we've got a sense of what it could be. But I think importantly for us, it's about that marriage of financial sustainability because it's got to wash its face, it's got to provide a working profit that can go back into the running of Big Pit here.Kate Eden: But it's got to be authentic to this place. It can't be the add on the visitor should shop that you walk through at the end. And it's a bit of a tedious thing to get back to the car park. It's got to be an integral part of the whole visitor experience in this place. And I think that's what they've achieved. Paul Marden: It's so impressive. So impressive. You know, just the structure that they've built to give you the impression of the mine in a really subtle way. The product that they've chosen, the way that they've laid out that, the shop is amazing. I think they've done an amazing job. Kate Eden: That's it. I mean, this is my local site. Paul Marden: Okay. Kate Eden: I live about three miles over the mountain there. So I bring my friends and family here. This is our go to place when I've got visitors. And I think just the way they've opened up the room, they've removed the barriers, which is really important. It's a small thing, but really important so that people feel welcome. They can walk in or they can walk ground. Paul Marden: Yep. Kate Eden: And it's. And it just feels a little bit more inclusive. It feels a bit more kind of, you know, we're here, it's easy to come and see us, you know, and spend time and then spend a little. Paul Marden: A little bit of money. Yeah. So where do we go from here as trustees? Are you fully behind rolling this out now? Kate Eden: Yeah, I mean, I think now that we've seen what we can do and the type of data that's coming through from sales, this is now the new. This is the bar. Paul Marden: Oh. So it has made a discernible difference to say. Kate Eden: So early data from Easter is really promising. Yeah. So this is the benchmark now from all of the other sites. Nia Elias: Hi, Paul. Hi, I'm Nia. Paul Marden: Lovely to meet you. Tell me about your role at the museum. Nia Elias: I am Director of Relationships and Funding. It basically means I get to work with all of the teams across the museum that work on the reputation, the reach, but also the revenue of this wonderful charity and national museum that we are. Because as well as getting funding from Welsh government, we raise our own income so it can be invested.Paul Marden: What sort of split? Nia Elias: What sort of split? So the majority of the money that comes to us does come from Welsh government because we're a public service, we're here free of charge for the people of Wales and we look after the national collection, which is over 5 million items across seven museums and a collection centre. Nia Elias: But there's a proportion then of money that we raise ourselves about sort of 30%, which is from our cafes and our car parks and the experiences that people have, and most importantly, our shops. Paul Marden:  So what was the inspiration for this project? Why kick off a strategy project around the whole retail experience? Nia Elias:  Well, this whole project, in essence started three and a half years ago when the museum decided that it would bring a strategy together for all of its self generated income. So that means our philanthropic income generation and through our enterprise, including our retail. And from a retail perspective, we knew that what we wanted to achieve with all of the money that we raise ourselves is that it's really rooted in the collection, because we have an amazing collection. It tells the story of Wales and it's owned by the people of Wales. Paul Marden: Right. Nia Elias: And from a retail perspective, we knew if people could engage with that and could take away something from the wonderful experience that they've had on site, that it would be something that they would want and it would make it unique that it's only possible to have here. Developing a project like this is quite challenging. You need the time, you need the teams and expertise, some of which are on your permanent team, some of which are naturally not. And also you need investment. And so by starting the thinking and the route of where we wanted to get to three and a half years ago, it meant when we had the funding and the opportunity to do so here at Big Pit, we knew exactly what to do. Paul Marden: Okay, so you. You put all of those pieces together and then came here and did the first cookie cutter stamp. But what's interesting is it's not a cookie cutter stamp, is it? This totally feels like the gift shop for this museum, doesn't it?. Nia Elias:  Yeah. So we feel really strongly that we wanted the balance of knowing that you're at a National Museum Wales site, knowing that you're somewhere unique, but equally that it has a sense of a place. Because all of our seven museums together tell the holistic story of Wales, but you really get a sense of personality on all of those sites, not just from the collection and the buildings and the items, but also from the colleagues that work here as well. Paul Marden: Right. Nia Elias: They're very much a part of that in terms of the stories that they tell, their lived experiences, and we had a sense of responsibility and fun to bring that through in the shop. Not just the ambiance, but also the products themselves, so much of them, the majority of them actually, are grounded in being inspired by the collection in some way, and also has a really strong Welsh and local profit as well. What we think that will come through to our customers and visitors and guests is that because we've worked across all of the teams in the museum, so curators and people who care for the collection, our colleagues here at Big Pit, many of whom are former miners, and our colleagues front of house, it means that everybody will be able to speak about the product. Nia Elias: So as you're walking around picking things up, imagining them in your home or as gifts, our colleagues can talk about what they mean to the place. And that brings something additional that you can't really buy. Paul Marden: Yeah. There's a story to it. There's a background to it that roots it. Yeah. Lovely. For you, what's the standout experience from the whole project? What have you enjoyed the most? Nia Elias: Two things I think in terms of the way that it's been done, the fact that so many teams have worked together behind the scenes to make it happen. That means that as we want to change things or tweak things or improve things, we'll have all of the knowledge and expertise already baked in, especially learning from other suppliers who've come along and helped us. So we've got that baked in now, which is really exciting. And the second thing is that I can stand here knowing that this is the standard of a national museum that our guests and visitors expect and want to see. Paul Marden: And now let's hear from a few of the external partners that Kath brought into the project. Arantxa Garcia was the shop designer and visual merchandiser. Anya Kirkby was responsible for product development. And Guy Veal was responsible for sound design. Tell me about your involvement in the project. Arantxa Garcia: Sure. So I'm the shop designer and visual merchandiser. It's a freelance role, so. So I worked with the team, Matthew, Richard, Anne and Guy. Paul Marden: Excellent. Arantxa Garcia: So we kind of all came as part of a team and each one of us looked after different areas of the project. And my involvement was to kind of reinvent and reimagine what was already here. And the idea was to create a space that was connected to the experience and to the site itself. So we've basically ripped the space apart. We've kind of kept the structure, obviously, but we've opened up the space as well. Before the shop, it would be very separate. You'd have admissions and then you have the shop area, which meant that you were only really accessing the shop if you came to visit the site. But as a local, you wouldn't be able to come, for example. Or you could, but maybe not in such an open way. Paul Marden: Yeah, you wouldn't feel welcome. Arantxa Garcia: Exactly, exactly. You may not want to just because you didn't know, whereas now you can just come in and basically hang around and also browse the shop. Exactly. We took inspiration from life underground, from the mine itself. So before the building was white, the units were white, so it could be a shop anywhere. You know, it didn't really have a DNA, so to speak, or an identity that related it directly to the site. So when visiting down to the underground and King Call as well, the exhibition that we've got just up the hill, we took inspiration from basically sort of like the. The cladding that you've got on the walls. Cladding is not the right word. So if one of the miners hears me saying that, they'll be. Arantxa Garcia: That's not the word that we told you, but the idea is that all the materiality that we're using, it's really evocative of. Of the site and it's the materials that have been used underground. So even, like the safety lamps, they'll set authentic safety lamps. And the team on site, Dwayne Smith, has electrified them. So it means that now they work, obviously, as a normal light, but it's a safety. Paul Marden: But they are the original safety. Arantxa Garcia: They are the original safety. Paul Marden: Wowsers. And what about these styles? Arantxa Garcia: So, yes, I always like going for a hunt on the side. So basically the team took me to different rooms and we just found stuff, if you like. So they're like the pressure gauges, you know, we're gonna use them just to add, again, like, references to the site and the authenticity, of course. So you also find loads of tools that would have been used underground as well. Paul Marden: I would imagine that this has been a really enjoyable project for you. I can see it on your face, how much you've enjoyed it. Arantxa Garcia: It has. And I think for designers, sometimes there's projects that take a bit longer to emerge and you keep changing things because you just don't feel probably quite right. There's something. But with this one, it kind of. After the site visit, it was just. Paul Marden: I clicked immediately.Arantxa Garcia: It just clicked immediately. So we darkened the wall. So we've kind of given that sort of grey background just to kind of creating more of like a cosy and shrinking the space. Paul Marden: But you. It pops the orange. Arantxa Garcia: Exactly. And the orange is everywhere. So, like, we've also changed the lighting, so it's a lot warmer. So again, that hint of orange. Yeah, orange on the back, orange on the miners on here. And then it comes also from the products. So the identity is there, but without going fully corporate, if that makes sense. That's the colour that you remember, isn't it? You've just been on the ground. All our guides and miners wear the orange overalls and the sort of, like the blue jackets over it, whether it's a donkey jacket in the winter or then they wear the soft shells as well. So, yeah, it's all those details, like those hints to the experience that kind of are embedded in the design. And these are regional as well. The drums are regional, all the flatbeds. Arantxa Garcia:  So the team here took the metal sides off and then sort of like left the skeleton of the drum, varnished it. And then our shop fitters aren't here. They did all the sort of the cladding using reclaimed scaffolding boards. But the original Drums would have been made out of wood. Paul Marden: Beautiful. It's so tactile, isn't it? Arantxa Garcia:  It's tactile. Again, we're looking at the DNA all the time. And shops can be more than just shops. Shops can tell stories. You just connect with it in a very different way. And just having the time the team on site involved has been absolutely incredible. Like the sense of pride and belonging and provenance that this kind of has awakened, it's been great. It's your job done really as a designer. When you just feel like everyone owns it, that's your job, that's when you can walk away. Paul Marden: What an amazing testimonial for you and the work that everyone feels like that. Anya, lovely to meet you. Tell me, what was your involvement in the project? Anya Kirkby: So I mainly focused on product development. So we looked at where we could get inspiration from the site and how we could translate that really from the site experience into the shop experience as well. Paul Marden: Okay, so you're coming, you're experiencing what's going on and then looking to the outside world as to how you can source your products. Where do you go for the inspiration for the products? Anya Kirkby: Working with the team a lot. So Amy was a huge help on guiding us on what things would be very useful for visitors, what they really enjoyed when they were on site, what were their key take home messages that they experienced. And then working with Amy and Tracey as well to look at what products people like when they're in the shop anyway and how we can kind of marry those two up. Paul Marden: So what is it that people like when they come to Big Pit? Anya Kirkby: Well, unsurprisingly, the mine, they enjoy the mines, the mining experience. So that was just something that we already had in the shop. So we just expanded on that more if possible. But then we've also taken inspiration from signage. So they already had the original Big Pit signage and we looked at that and kind of again expanded on it. So then we've kind of expanded that to signage that you find in some of the other exhibits. So up in the showers, for example, in the canteen, signage, some of the original pieces from collections. We then translated that into products. So you'll see we've got the designs across mugs, original little metal signs, moved that across to prints, notebooks, postcards. Paul Marden: You've been developing a lot of the products yourself, so bringing that kind of the unifying feel to everything. Anya Kirkby: Yeah. So along with product development and making all the kind of the new things that we can have it's just bringing across the branding through the AC brand really strongly across everything. It's got such a strong message that we may as well have that on as many products as we possibly can do. Paul Marden: And how much of the stuff is actually locally sourced? Anya Kirkby: Oh, it's huge amounts. And the exciting thing is after speaking to Amy, the things that she needs to reorder are the local suppliers, which is so nice. So a lot of the confectionery that's locally sourced candles, soap, the coal figures, the wooden spoons, chocolate boxes, the biscuit boxes. So as much as possible. And then we've worked with local suppliers as well to do photography, to do some of the signage, to do the original signwriting in the shop as well. So beyond products, we've looked at the POS points like elements of the shop as well. So thankfully we've used as many local spires as we possibly can. Paul Marden: You've enjoyed this project, haven't you? Anya Kirkby: I absolutely loved it, yeah. It's fantastic to see it's absolutely amazing. Paul Marden: Yeah. Anya Kirkby: So yeah, it's really special. Paul Marden: And then from here you springboard on to the other seven sites. How do you, how do you come up with the ideas then? Anya Kirkby: Exactly the same process. So working with the teams to find out what it is that visitors absolutely love about their sites and bringing that into the shop experience. So again I get very lucky. I get to go around a lot museums and experience it. Paul Marden: It's a tough job, isn't it?Anya Kirkby: It's tricky. But basically finding out what they love and bringing that through the really things that visitors take home with them anyway and just making it into a product that they can actually physically take a piece of the museum home with them as well. Paul Marden: It's great because there are some pocket money items here because I take kids on school visits and it's a very expensive experience. You know, if they catch take a fiver with them, often they can't get anything with a fiver but they can walk in and they've got pencils, they've got rubbers and they'll walk out happy with those little bits. But at the same time you've got some beautiful stuff that the grown ups can come and pick up and really enjoy. Anya Kirkby: It's the same as any museum visitor. You kind of have to look at who's going to be visiting. It's all types of people that come and just gauging it from that as well. So having an offer for everyone that they can enjoy. Someone said to me once that children for the first time. It's often their first time having a transaction monetary wise. Is that a museum on a school trip? So it's just lovely to kind of have something for them to experience that as well. Paul Marden: Never thought of it like that. They're out on their own. They're not with mum and dad. So they've got the money themselves and they've got to make the decision. So we are at. I took some kids to the science museum last year. Anya Kirkby: Oh. Paul Marden: And the amount of time we took in the shop because of the indecision that they had. Anya Kirkby: It's the indecision decision and then the queue of all them having a five pound note and having all the change come back or not having quite enough. But I think it's such an important. If you can't do that in a museum, where can you do it? Paul Marden: Guy. Hi. Guy Veale: Hi. Paul Marden: I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about what was your part of the project? Guy Veale: I was sound designer for the soundscape which we can't hear when everyone's chatting. Paul Marden: I can hear some birds in the background. Is that. Guy Veale: Is that canaries? Living canaries. Not dead gas. Paul Marden:  Coal mine canary. Guy Veale: So I did a little bit of research sort of towards the end of the project after lots of stuff had been built in, when they decided that some low level sound would be a good part of the experience. And looking at the brief and the shape of the room, the acoustics, a lot of this new ducting that's gone in that was not then easy to put cables into. We had to go for a wireless solution. Paul Marden:  Okay. Guy Veale: As part of that I found a Swedish company that had a system that creates its own network which is like a weird dream because normally you've got to go the IT guys and then something goes wrong and there's some sort of address problems or. Bluetooth is not always reliable. This has been a revolution just in terms of. Guy Veale: Don't if you can see them. There's little. They look like light fixtures that are centrally over these panels. Paul Marden: Oh right. Guy Veale: And they're quite. Paul Marden: Oh. And so they're speaking speakers pointing down onto the panel to separate it. So what. What. The other kind of sound pictures that you're painting. We've got the canary. What else have you got? Guy Veale: So the whole idea is that you're trying to represent the industrial heritage of the site and have as many authentic sounds from the site as possible. Paul Marden: Right. Guy Veale: So we've reused some of the really high quality recordings that also feature at different parts of the site already. Paul Marden: Yep. Guy Veale: But then, also sourced about another 70 or 80 sound from the BBC archive. Paul Marden: Oh, wow. Guy Veale: Paid for. And so. But if you think about those sounds, they're quite punctuated and aggressive. You think of any industrial sound and like chipping away or different tipples working. You know, the idea is that you don't want to surprise someone that while they're shopping and leaning over next to a speaker and hearing. So it needed to be softened in some way. And you know, traditionally the way I've done work is music and sound design is using different textures and tonal design and like a drone, I suppose, is this as a sort of basis that can be moving and organic, not totally static? Paul Marden: Yeah. Guy Veale:  And the idea was to sort of try and include fragments of relevant songs using the male voice choir.Paul Marden:  Really.Guy Veale: And we tried several things and I looked at it and I realised that you might catch someone coming in for five minutes here and they catch a snippet and it's all well and good for them, but the staff and you've got to hear this eight hours a day, every day, you know, four weeks, a month, so forth. So even just one little identifiable recurring melody starts to get too much, even on quite a long five. Paul Marden: Oh, really? Guy Veale: And I found that it wasn't sustainable. So I, in the end, I ended up using the. Almost like the vocal warm ups and breaths of the choir artificially extended out so they're not breathing, just this constant low level, breathy sort of expulsion. I mean, if went quiet now, we'd hear it as the. As a backdrop and it's embedded with a few other little musical elements that just sort of try and soften and support. I think of it like the vowels of the track and then the consonants. Paul Marden: Or the industrial chipping noises and the harsher noises. Guy Veale: So they're harsher but they're there and they're a bit removed and reverberate and in the background. Paul Marden: But it's really interesting how you describe it in that kind of. Using the metaphor of the letters. Guy Veale: Yeah, that's what it felt like. Just trying to find something that was like a vocabulary of work that has to tick so many different boxes, including like a therapeutic retail experience. People leaving the site with a sense of well being. Also like summarising what they've been through, not sort of projecting them out the door with, you know, a completely new thing or somewhere that they haven't been through yet. So, you know, fair few things to try and fit in there and, you know, hopefully it works and we'll see how things are in a year's time. Paul Marden: Yeah. Cath, the last point I wanted touch on before we finish today is oh my God, how happy everybody was at that event yesterday. How positive the experience was for all of the team members. What was for you the big standout moment for the entire project? Catherine Pinkerton: I mean, there's so many, Paul. But I think for me it's an opportunity to see what can be achieved when people collaborate. And I think, you know, joining the museum three years ago is really collaborating with lots of different departments to achieve something as a team.Catherine Pinkerton: Teamwork is absolutely the key to kind of success and I think you can only achieve that by having that really product professional kind of embodiment with all of the collaborative teams to work together for the same goal. And I, I was really proud yesterday that it took a lot of work, but actually without a team of 40 people as well as the wider organisation, it would not have been, it was no mean feat, but it was certainly wasn't just down to one person saying this is my project because it was a team effort. Catherine Pinkerton: And I was so proud of everybody that was there to kind of thank them along the way to say, this is, we've done this and now onwards and upwards. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. You should be so proud. It really was. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you. Paul Marden:  It's a demonstration of what a museum gift shop experience can really be like when you work together like that, when you collaborate. So well done to all of you. It was such a lovely experience yesterday. Thank you for inviting me. Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you so much for coming, Paul. I appreciate it. Paul Marden: Before we go though, I always ask for a book recommendation from our guests. Now it would have bankrupted me to have asked everybody yesterday for book recommendations. So you have to take the responsibility of a recommendation on behalf of everybody. What have you got for me? Catherine Pinkerton: The secret for me is, you know, that that book seems to be. I always go back to that book very often and I think it's a key one for lots of areas. So that's definitely a takeaway for me. But the other one I'm reading at the moment called A Monk's Guide to Happiness. I'm not sure if you've had enough to read it. Yeah, it's a 21st century take on A Monk's Guide. It's written by Gelong Thubten and he had a very high powered job and he had a burnout and interestingly he changed his whole mindset in terms of what makes him happy and really making it quite basic. Right. Catherine Pinkerton: So it's a, it's a real eye opener in terms of just pulling things back sometimes, you know, at the end of the day, come on, let's just live life and be happy but, you know, not stress out about things. I'm quite easy to do that. So this is very much a. Just breathe, Kath, get through it. But it's a good one. If you want to just strip it back and just kind of understanding the basics of being happy, then, yeah, he's great. Paul Marden: Oh, Cath, that's a great recommendation. If you go over to Bluesky and repost the show message that Wenalyn put out and say, I want Kath's book, then the first person that does that will get a copy of the book sent to them. Kath, it was absolutely delightful. I enjoyed my day wandering around Big Pit yesterday no end. Given that half my family is from the valleys and most of them were miners, I feel like I should have done this a very long time ago. But it was lovely. And to enjoy the experience of the celebration that you had yesterday, it was a real privilege. So thank you. Catherine Pinkerton: Oh, huge privilege to have you there. Paul. Thank you so much. I'm really appreciative. Did you purchase? Paul Marden: I did purchase on my way out. Catherine Pinkerton: Yay. Great, great, great.Paul Marden: Deal. Catherine Pinkerton: Deal. Thank you so much. Paul Marden: So after my trip 90 metres down to the bottom of the mine shaft, where I of course couldn't take microphones, I'm now back up on the surface, microphones back in hand and enjoying myself, wandering around currently in the winding house, which is where all the machinery is for lifting the cages that 90 metres down to the bottom of the pit head. I've had an amazing day here at Big Pit. It's been so interesting to see this museum and to talk to many of the amazing staff that have taken part in this big project to redesign their gift shops. Highly recommend a day trip to Big Pit. Really has been very enjoyable, if for no other reason, to see that amazing new gift shop experience. Paul Marden: Now, as always, if you'd like a copy of Catherine's book, head over to Blue sky and repost the show notice that Wenalyn will post out and say, I want a copy of Catherine's book and the first person to do that will get that copy sent over to them. So all that remains for me to say is thank you to Catherine for inviting me here to Big Pit today. And I'll see you again soon. Take care. Bye Bye. Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 7th May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Dynamic Earth website: https://dynamicearth.org.uk/Dynamic Earth X: https://x.com/ourdynamicearthDynamic Earth LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/our-dynamic-earth-dynamic-earth-enterprises-ltd-dynamic-earth-charitable-trust-/Mark Bishop joined Dynamic Earth in the summer of 2022. The Edinburgh Science Centre & Planetarium provides science engagement to over 250,000 people a year at the centre and across Scotland. Prior to joining Dynamic Earth, Mark was a director at the National Trust for Scotland for seven years. In the 23 years Mark has been in the voluntary sector, he has also held senior roles at Prostate Cancer UK, Leonard Cheshire Disability and The Royal British Legion. His commercial sector experience includes roles at HarperCollins, Sky, and he co-founded two Internet start-ups. He continues to be a Trustee of Dads Rock, which is a charity dedicated to supporting men to be great parents. Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor Attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. The Millennium Commission was set up by the UK Government to celebrate the turn of the millennium. Funded by the National Lottery, not only did it fund the Millennium Dome, now the O2, it also funded many regional venues, including a number of science centres such as Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh, which was the first major millennium attraction in Edinburgh. In this episode, I'm talking to Mark Bishop, the CEO of Dynamic Earth, about those millennium babies and what the next 25 years looks for them. After a career in charity fundraising, Mark moved to the attraction sector in 2015 at the National Trust for Scotland, before becoming CEO of Dynamic Earth nearly three years ago. Now let's get into the interview. Paul Marden: Mark, welcome to Skip the Queue. Mark Bishop: Hi. Morning. How are you? Paul Marden: I'm very good. I'm very good on a very sunny morning here down in Hampshire at the moment. I don't know what the Easter holidays are like up there for you at the moment, Mark. Mark Bishop: Well, people always talk about the weather being different in Scotland, so here in Edinburgh, we had the most amazing first week of spring last week, and that made me sad because indoor visitor attractions often benefit from when it's cloudy or rainy. So I am delighted to say the second half of Easter is terrible outside, but amazing inside our building. Paul Marden: Oh, good. So, visitor numbers are good for you this Easter holiday, are they? Mark Bishop: Well, we had probably the best number of people in since COVID Yesterday. We had 1302 people in. Paul Marden: Wowsers.Mark Bishop: That's great, because to have families and groups in celebrating science in our building during their holiday time makes me happy. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, went. I've been doing day trips with my daughter just recently over the Easter break and you can definitely feel there's lots of people out and about and enjoying themselves over these Easter holidays. So good to hear that it's been kind to you as well. Longtime listeners will know that we always start our interviews with an icebreaker question that you cannot prepare for. So I think I've been kind to you. I've got a couple for you here. This is an A or B question. If you're going out for a night out, is it going to be a concert or is it going to be a museum nighttime exhibition? Mark Bishop: I think I'm supposed to, on behalf of the sector, go for the latter, but I am going to answer it in an authentic way and say A, a concert. So before I had kids, I'd probably go to about 150 concerts a year. Really, in the days when NME existed and it had a print edition and I'd pretty much just buy it, flick it and go, that looks interesting. And go without ever even hearing things because Spotify didn't exist and he goes to stuff and it was terrible or brilliant, but I loved it just from the variety and the surprise factor. Obviously, these days we kind of plan our music events a bit better. We know the artists and in theory we make better choices. But perhaps we don't do such good random things as well. Who knows? Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, now this one's a little bit more in depth. If there is a skill that you could master immediately, what would it be? Mark Bishop: Trying to understand how my three kids think and how I need to respond to that. But I don't think I'm the only parent on the planet that loves seeing the variety of ways they behave. But just question, how on earth did they come to be and think like that? Paul Marden: Yeah, it sounds like almost a kind of being able to speak child and become an interpreter, a child whisperer. Mark Bishop: And I think we, you know, sort of kind of be a bit more profound about these things. As an Earth Science Centre, that predominantly kind of has family audience, actually, some of the best questions we get are from younger people. So sometimes minds are probably more open and liberated. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a nice segue, isn't it? So why don't you tell us a little bit about the Dynamic Earth? What stories does the Dynamic Earth try to tell? Mark Bishop: So Dynamic Earth, for those who don't know it, is the Edinburgh Science Centre and Planetarium. And as I'm sure we'll talk about, we were the first out of the millennium babies to launch back on 2nd July 1999. Our building predates being a science centre. It used to be a Scottish and Newcastle brewery. So when people say, I can't organise the proverbial in a brewery, I go, possibly released half row. And in the mid-1990s, they stopped making beer and handed the land over to public benefit. And it's become the UK's leading Earth science centre. So we're very much a science centre, but we're a science centre with a very specific theme around our planet and our universe and the experiences are very deliberately immersive. Mark Bishop: So we allow people to experience in a safe way what it feels like to be in an earthquake, to see a volcanic eruption, to touch a real iceberg, to dive to the bottom of the ocean and then fly out to the outer reaches of space. And we do all of that because we think our planet is beautiful and fascinating and the wonders of the world need to be celebrated. But increasingly, we also want to showcase the perils we're placing on our planet, our only home. We have about a quarter million people come through our doors a year, and that would be families, that'd be tour groups. There'll be a lot of school groups coming in, 30,000 kind of school groups coming in, and then we have about 400 conferences and events a year. Mark Bishop: So we have everything from Arctic conferences, water resilient conferences, and electric aeroplane conferences. You name it, we have it in our building. And I think a lot of the conferences have keynote speakers that tend to be first ministers or senior politicians, because unless somebody can tell me otherwise, I think we are the closest science centre in the world to a seat of government, because the Scottish parliament is 10 yards across the road. Paul Marden: Excellent. So you have the year of government as well? Mark Bishop: We like to think so. Paul Marden: So I've not been to Dynamic Earth yet, and I need to solve that problem. Yeah. But I'm getting a picture in my mind of telling the story around the geology of the planet, and there's going to be lots of physics around. The planetary stuff that you talk about when you take that big zoom out. Are there other elements of the science, the different sciences, that you bring into this storytelling? Is there elements of biology and botany and things like that you bring into this? Mark Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, one of the galleries I didn't mention to you is a rainforest gallery. So you go into a tropical rainforest, regardless of what the weather is like outside in Edinburgh and Scotland, you come into a tropical rainforest, but the sounds and smells and sensations of that rainforest immerse you. And we do that because, you know, probably very few people will travel in their lifetime to a tropical rainforest. And there's lots of environmental reasons why you probably wouldn't encourage people to do that. But to be immersed in that space and to feel what it's like to be in a rainforest allows you to understand that it's humans' relationship with the world around them, and that we're not the only beings on this planet. And so hopefully we try and humble people by realising there are other habitats and species than ourselves. Paul Marden: Excellent. So today's episode, what we want to do, we've got a series of episodes that we want to do around the Millennium Project. I've got particular interest in this because my first job whilst I was still at uni was at the National Botanic Gardens of Wales, which was a millennium project. So I was there whilst they were digging. I can vividly remember it being a building site, and this dome where they built the gardens, sort of lifted out of the earth. So I felt, I can remember being there and feeling like this was something important, we were building something for the long term. It was an exciting opportunity. And we're at this kind of big anniversary, aren't we, this year, 25 years since many of those millennium projects opened. Paul Marden: And I wanted to kind of look back on those 25 years. Did it work out the way it was planned to work out? Did it turn out to be this exciting new opportunity, building a long term legacy for the country? Were there some growing pains, that kind of thing? And what does the future, what's the next 25 years and beyond look like for those millennium babies? So let's take a little step back because although I was wearing my wellies and walking around a building site, I didn't pay a lot of attention to what drove the investment in the first place. So there was a big explosion, wasn't there, through investment from the Millennium Commission in science centres. So what drove that in the first place? Why did these science centres come into being as a result, the Millennium Commission? Mark Bishop: Well, I think the thing that probably everybody felt in the 90s, from the mid-90s onwards, was you just heard about the millennium coming, as if this was going to be a significant zeitgeist kind of piece. We're all being told that every electronic device was going to break because of the millennium bug. Paul Marden: Yes. Mark Bishop: And that one didn't come to be kind of thankfully. But I think beyond that kind of anxiety piece around technology, there was a sort of spirit of looking to the future, thinking what might be. I felt like a time of optimism and hope. And so therefore it kind of made sense for government and other agencies to invest in thinking about the future, because a lot of museums and galleries and other institutions are fantastic custodians of the past. Mark Bishop: And of course galleries and museums reflect present times in terms of exhibitions and storytelling and interpretation. But there really weren't many science centres or organisations that were specifically existing to help each of us come to terms with what hasn't yet happened. So I think that's probably the kind of founding driving spirit behind it. And Dynamic Earth was very much part of that wave. Paul Marden: You talk a little bit about being a former brewery. How did Dynamic Earth come into being? What, what was the background story to it? Because these things didn't just appear on the high street in the year 2000. They were projects that ran up to that point, weren't they? Mark Bishop: Yeah. And I love going through our limited but really important kind of archive of documents to try and understand these things. And I sort of love heritage because my last job was working at the National Trust for Scotland. So therefore I'm kind of fascinated by the past as well as kind of looking to the future. And so when I go through our kind of archives and records, it shows that we stopped being a brewery in the early 1990s. Scottish Newcastle said to themselves, you know, we want to give the space over to public benefit. At the time, it wasn't defined to be a science centre. And this part of Edinburgh, the bottom end of the Royal Mile, had a royal Palace. It's had that for a long time. But it was pretty much run down housing and factories. Mark Bishop: And so this whole end of town was very down on its luck and everything kind of needed to be thought through again. So Edinburgh City Council and other agencies like Scottish Enterprise and major kind of funders all got behind thinking about this whole part of town in Scotland's capital, rather than just thinking about a side centre. Paul Marden: Right. Mark Bishop: So the land that Scotland Newcastle gave over to doing good things was partly sold off by dynavicarth to allow, you know, to allow flats to be developed next door we've got Rockstar North. The other side of me, we've got the Scottish parliament that opens 24 hours away from Dynamic Earth kind of stuff. So they opened the same week. So it's a whole story of kind of urban capital city regeneration that lies behind that. But very specifically, why did Dynamic Earth become an Earth Science Centre? Yeah, and you can't see it, but if I dramatically look out my window, I can see Arthur's Seat and the Salisbury Crags through Holyrood Park. Anybody who comes to Edinburgh, whose legs allow, will walk up the hill and experience an old volcano and a beautiful view of the city. Mark Bishop: And now the reason that's significant is that a guy called James Hutton, 300 years ago was a real leading light in the Enlightenment, and he managed to challenge all those kind of religious zealots in terms of the age of the planet by studying the rock forms right outside my window. And he went, “Guys, I've got a thought. This wasn't done in a day or seven days”. I'm telling you now, there's billions of years of laying down of rocks and stuff like that. And so, therefore, when we thought, what does this brewery need to become? Mark Bishop: A number of good people said, well, let's make this centre a homage to James Hutton, the idea that the Enlightenment is still alive with us today, the idea that you should be able to challenge existing hard set views by using insight and science to inform your thinking. And then the rest happened. Paul Marden: Excellent. So I didn't know that Edinburgh was the kind of the seat of that thinking around the geological history of the Earth and what drove the purpose for the centre. It makes lots of sense now. So let's talk about opening up. What was that experience like for the Dynamic Earth? I know there were lots of positives for many people. I know lots of millennium attractions didn't bring in the numbers of people that they were perhaps hoping for. What was that early life like at the centre? Mark Bishop: Well, so inevitably, anything that's new attracts a crowd of people who are curious. So the early couple of years were really good from a kind of visitor attraction side of things. But actually quite early on, within the first couple of years, my predecessors realised that you just can't, generally speaking, break even or make a profit from just running a visitor attraction, particularly when your purpose is educational rather than just pure entertainment. Paul Marden: Yes. Mark Bishop: And so our building had the answer built into it, in the sense we have an amazing set of conference suites for businesses, weddings and other kind of celebrations. And so quite early on, we started an events team and that now means we have 400 plus events here a year. Half of them, I would say, are kind of environmental science specific events. But that generates, you know, one and a half getting off £2 million of income ultimately for us. And that's very significant way of A, making sure that we are a place where ideas take place. Our convening power, if you want to call it that, but actually also the net contribution of that is a very significant way to fund any gap you have on the visitor side of things. Paul Marden: Yeah, I should imagine having the seat of Government 10 yards from the building helps with bringing in the events. And that's certainly not going to detract from the events portfolio, is it, being smack in the centre of the city like that? Mark Bishop: Well, if I think, I mean, in the space of what, the last three or four months, ie, 20, 25, we've had the first minister here two or three times, we've had the Deputy First Minister here the other evening. And so therefore, if you're a company or a conference organiser and you want to attract all the good and the great in terms of delegates, knowing there's a senior political figure to do the keynote address is a good way of making your marketing literature kind of really sing. I think, you know. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Mark Bishop: And also from a. I guess for the politicians as well, because their time is in demand, very precious. So the idea that they can reach their key stakeholders on pretty much any topic in the space of 10 yards, half an hour here and then back at your desk within the hour, that's quite attractive from a political perspective. Paul Marden: Absolutely. So, going back to those early days, as your predecessors were finding their feet, of figuring out what operating a science centre was going to be like, what were the growing pains? Were there some challenges along the way? Mark Bishop: So, inevitably, what is brand new doesn't stay new forever. And I think if you design a science centre and retrofit it into a brewery, there's obviously some trade offs in terms of layout and the design. And you have beautiful architects come in and do amazing things for you that look amazing at a kind of brochure, aesthetic level. But when you trade them day in, day out, you do sometimes question the infinite logic behind the design principle. So, for example, if you come through Dynamic Earth, we're a beautiful tented structure like the Millennium Dome or the O2 as it is today. And if you're coming in and you're buying a ticket in person, you would turn left and go to our ticket desk and join the queue there. But then the actual experience side of things is completely on the other side of the building. Mark Bishop: So the intuitive flow of coming in, getting a ticket and joining the experience is designed in a counterintuitive way where, in effect, audiences sort of meet in the middle to a certain extent. So that's probably an example of things that you just wouldn't have got right on day one, but kind of are a gentle living curse for you every day since. Paul Marden: I wonder, though, by retrofitting the centre into this old historic brewery, whether you may not have fallen foul of some of the other attractions that were built around that time, because many of them have got problems with the fabric of the building now, haven't they, these new buildings that perhaps were built with the same level of care and attention that we might lavish on them these days. Mark Bishop: Yeah, I mean, that's a good thing. I sit in this amazing sort office that basically looks like a castle turret. The walls are this thick, you know, they are very sort of stone and authentic. So it's a very authentic historic building, but with new ideas and thinking and experiences within it. So it's a trade off, I guess. Paul Marden: Yeah. So now that these centres are getting to early adulthood, how do you think they're doing? Mark Bishop: Well. Thankfully, the vast majority of science centres and other experiences that launched inspired by the millennium are still in existence. So survival in the first instance is a form of success. And I think that the fact that we're open shows we've all stood the test of time, which I think is an important achievement. I think what's clear from talking to all the science centres that I bump into is we all find it quite challenging to get that balance between your purpose and your profit, trying to get that balance between why you exist in the first place versus how you fund the building, your staff and your other bills. And so that's an ongoing kind of challenge that the original business plans are used to justify an investment probably don't reflect reality 25 years on. Mark Bishop: I think the other thing I would say that's a real shift is I think centres like Dynamic Earth were opened at the time when the Internet was absolutely in its infancy.Paul Marden: Completely. Mark Bishop: And I still remember from my homework and university work, going to libraries and getting books and using physical things to kind of acquire knowledge. And of course, the Internet now means that any facts and figures are available at the touch of a button. So if you want to know about a volcano, you can find as many facts and figures as you want on the Internet, Wikipedia or other sources. It means that Dynamic Earth and other science centres have kind of shifted from simply thinking about ourselves as a knowledge exchange centre to being a place where we inspire people to think for themselves and that. Mark Bishop: I don't know whether that happened on day 4009 or whatever it was, but I definitely think that when you look at what were doing on day one versus what we're doing in our 25th year, there's been a shift in emphasis and approach. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. You're right that all of these facts and figures are the fingertips of the young people who are completely immersed in that as a natural way for them to research. But I've done enough school party visits, I've taken kids to different science centres, and you can't replace the storytelling, you can't replace being immersed in the place that is so powerful. Mark Bishop: I think 100% agree, and you'd be surprised if I didn't say that. But the idea that you learn as a shared experience, either as a school group or a family or a tall group, you have some jokes, you bounce ideas off of each other. And I saw that recently when my daughter came here a few months back for her last primary school visit, aged just 11, coming at 12.  And she begs me over breakfast, she said, “Please, Dad, don't do anything to embarrass me.” And I absolutely, solemnly swore at breakfast, you know, I will not do anything to embarrass you today. And I maintain I kept my promise. Mark Bishop: But when her school bus pulled up outside our building, the doors open, the kids poured out, my daughter's friends all pointed up to the top of the stairs and went, “There's a dinosaur there, Autumn, that's your dad. It's going to be your dad. You know that.” And I hope that you know that their school group had an amazing experience through the galleries, an amazing experience with our learning team and a fantastic sort of outer space experience in the planetarium. But even that sort of jokey bit of Dad's a dinosaur stayed with the kids. So at the end of their year's show, one of them hired a dinosaur outfit and they reenacted my daughter's embarrassment. And so even that tiny, silly example shows that shared experience is what it's all about. Paul Marden: Completely. I think those experiences that kids have when they go out on their school trips, it's something that Bernard et ALVA talked about earlier on this year as being really important, key points for that ALVA was asking of the government, was to make those school trips integral part of the curriculum. I think they're so powerful and so many kids don't get to experience that well. Mark Bishop: I think the challenge we sort of see here that be the same across Scotland and UK wide is even when there are opportunities to have subsidised tickets and you do everything you can to make sure the price of entry for school groups is as low as possible, often the barrier is the cost of the coach hire. Paul Marden: So I'm a governor at my daughter's school and I was talking to the head and they're in a really lucky position because they've got us. They're a very small village school, so there's only 90, 95 kids in total anyway. But they've got their own minibus which makes them mobile, so it means that any. We were at the Horse Crest, like the local heritage railway, just recently because we got invited for a trip and it was dead easy for us to go straight away. Yes. Because the kids can just get there easily and that's a different kettle of fish if you've got to hire coaches, because it's so perilously expensive now. Anyway, we digress a little bit. You've been in post now for three years, nearly three years, I think it is. Yeah. Paul Marden: What does your plan look like in the short term, but also what do you think the next 25 years look like for Dynamic Earth? Mark Bishop: I think that question sort of speaks to the idea that while an organisation should be proud of its 25 years of existence and everything it's done in that time, and we've certainly had some lovely staff celebrations and public celebrations to celebrate that important milestone. It's too self indulgent to spend all your time looking back rather than thinking about and facing into the future. And that's probably more true of science centres than anybody else, because if you were founded on looking to the future, you get to 25 years. Mark Bishop: Yes, have a little look back, but bang, think about looking forward to the future again and ask yourselves brave questions like what do we need to do that honours the spirit of what our founders did and thought about to put us together in the first place and not to betray our roots, but equally not to be constrained by them. Because the world is very different 25 years on, and particularly around the climate emergency and planetary crisis. We at Dynamic Earth, as an Earth Science Centre, feel not just an opportunity, but a kind of absolute responsibility to play our part, to kind of really shift the dial around helping people understand their role and responsibility when it comes to protecting our only home planet Earth. And so that's the kind of challenge we've set ourselves. Mark Bishop: And I'm going to do a dangerous thing of involving a prop. About 18 months, two years ago, we launched our 10 year strategy from beginning to end, and it's a document at the end of. But the exact summary is this. And of course you can see there's a clock there and you might be able to see the kind of temperature, kind of pieces, and the 1.5 is the 1 that we know quite tragically we're going to reach sometime very soon. And what we've done with that 10 year strategy is say how do we honour what we've been famous for, but how do we push and pivot that towards climate kind of response storytelling? Mark Bishop: And so therefore what we are trying to work through for ourselves is how do you maintain a popular visitor attraction? How do you inspire people, bring entertainment and delight into people's lives, but how do you absolutely hit home with some really hard truths around what we are doing to destroy the beauty of our only hope? Mark Bishop: And I'm not sure I've quite got the answers to that because becoming sort of quite purposeful and, you know, risks being didactic. And being didactic takes away the idea that you're helping people to think for themselves and risks being a bit preachy. So there's a really good set of conversations going on at Dynamic Earth and I think a lot of other places across the UK, which is, how do you, how do you exist on the right side of history while still existing as a visitor attraction? Paul Marden: Yes, because it is a tough story to tell, isn't it? And that doesn't necessarily sit comfortably with being a lovely day out with the family, but that doesn't take away from the importance of telling the story and telling it well. Mark Bishop: And I think what we feel is, if there's one criticism I'd kind of make of the past is we probably overdefined ourselves as a visitor attraction and underdefined ourselves as an Earth science education charity that happens to run the visitor attraction. And that might feel semantic, but actually it's quite fundamental because if you realise that your purpose is about educating people inclusively across Scotland, including in Edinburgh, and now increasingly helping people come to terms with climate issues, then your visitor attraction is a tool, a prop, an asset to achieve a bigger thought than just visiting numbers. Paul Marden: So is there work that you do, outreach work that goes beyond the centre in Edinburgh? Are you talking to people outside of that centre? Mark Bishop: Absolutely. And some of the work that makes me most proud of being chief exec here at Dynamic Earth is the stuff you do not see day in, day out. So we have outreach work that goes into schools and community groups right across Scotland. There's about 10 regional science festivals that take place across the year. We're at every one of those with our pop up planetarium, it's got an inflatable planetarium. Unbelievably, 30 people can slip inside a big squishy tent, and the universe comes to life wherever you happen to be. And that's kind of pretty magnificent. We go into children's hospitals, we work with community groups, we do digital and in person delivery in schools. And so therefore what we do away from Dynamic Earth as a science centre is as important as what we do at the centre. Mark Bishop: Because probably the people who might not be able to come to us for geographic reasons or financial or cultural reasons are often the people we most need to reach. And if we really believe that everybody in Scotland should play their individual and collective part in responding to climate planetary emergencies, we can't just say, well, if you don't come to us, we're not going to come to you. Because the climate issues need all of us to respond. So we have the added burden opportunity to get out there and tell our story across Scotland with that in mind. Paul Marden: Is there a shake up that's going on in the centre as you move on to this next stage of the maturity of the organisation? Mark Bishop: So I think that the things that are different in our approach is thinking about channel mix and that we kind of music to your ears because I think that science centres absolutely pride themselves on that in person shared experience, and that shouldn't go away. But actually thinking about how a one off experience is part of a longer customer or supporter journey is really key. So how do you connect with people before they come? By setting them, I know, a kind of online quiz and say how many of these questions about our planet can you answer? And then ask people to redo the quiz afterwards and see whether a visit to Dynamic Earth or another science centre has enriched their kind of knowledge. Mark Bishop: How do you connect what a family does on a Saturday to what a school group do in a classroom on a Tuesday and Wednesday? How do you get to what I call a nudge strategy, a multiple engagement kind of model? Because it strikes me that most things that, you know, mean something to people are developed over time rather than just one off experiences. So that's a shift in thinking, and it's a shift in thinking by not thinking for yourself as a visitor attraction, but thinking for yourself as a charity that exists to promote learning and engagement more broadly. Paul Marden: That's really interesting. So I'm totally guilty of thinking about the visitor attraction first and the commercial elements of it, because I guess that's our job is to get bumps on seats and to drive revenue. But when you think of that visitor attraction as the tool, not the end, you're using that tool to meet your bigger goals, aren't you? And it changes your perspective on how you do that. Mark Bishop: Well, it does because it allows you to sort of exist in a dual way of saying at a customer, experiential level, digital attraction side of things. How do you make sure that the experience you offer to people is distinctive, compelling, exciting and all the basic service features of toilets, cafe, shop, all this car parking, all those sorts of things on the functional side are doing what they need to do and then it means on the other side that you're also saying, “So what? you know, what is that trip all about? What did somebody take away?” Mark Bishop: And part of what people take away is that sense of shared experience, fun, entertainment, something to do on a wet Saturday afternoon. And that's valuable. But if you fundamentally help even a small proportion of your audience think radically different about themselves and the world around them. You might be doing something that goes way beyond what this attraction could ever imagine. Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. So is that what you're aiming for? Is it the few minds that you can change radically, or is it the nudge of making small changes to the larger numbers of people that walk through the door? Mark Bishop: I mean, the answer to that is both, because we think every one of us has an opportunity and a responsibility to do basic things. So, I mean, the obvious good examples would be how you recycle stuff. And I look at my teenage boys, are they always recycling things in the best way or am I going through the bin resisting things? But then you ask more fundamental questions of, well, it's not just a case of recycling the bottle of plastic water. Why did you buy a bottle of plastic water in the first place? Yes, this stuff like that. Mark Bishop: And so a science centre like us helps people not just do the right thing in kind of lip service ways, but think more fundamentally about your role and relationship with what excites you at school, what studies you take, what degree you might go on to take, or what job are you going to go on to do? And how do you make sure that where you buy things from, where you work, where you spend your time is reinforcing the good rather than perpetuating the bad? And that's, you know, maybe I'm an idealist, maybe I'm a lack of realism, but actually I really do think that on our day, that's what we exist to do. Mark Bishop: And there will be maybe 1%, 2% of the people who come through our doors who are so inspired by science that they choose careers that are acting as environmental activists. I can think of a lovely lady I met the other day. I'll change her name to Laura. She told me that she came To Dynamic Earth 20 years ago for our Saturday science clubs and she used to come most Saturday mornings. And she so fell in love with science that she chose science subjects at school, went on to do a science degree and is now just finishing off a PhD in understanding volcanoes with a view that she wants to look at volcanic eruptions, where they happen and help think about where humans live alongside volcanoes. So all of that came from her coming here on Saturday mornings. Mark Bishop: So she is living proof that you inspire people young, and it can inform the whole direction of their studies and clear intention.Paul Marden: And deadline. Yeah, completely. What a lovely story to end on, but there's one more thing we have to do before we end today's Interview. We always end with a book recommendation. So, Mark, what book have you got for our listeners to maybe win today? Mark Bishop: So it will sound slightly sort of sanctimonious, but I've just started reading Mike Berners-Lee's book, A Climate of Truth. Now, Mike was in Edinburgh the other evening to do a talk as part of the Edinburgh Science Festival. Such an inspirational guy in terms of kind of climate, sustainability kind of issues. His mum must be very proud to have him. And you know, his, you know, one of the boys invents the Internet, the other one saves the planet. You sort of think to yourself, that ain't too bad. And I'm going to cheat slightly. And also just recommend one poem to people. It's Scottish poet Douglas Dunn. And it's a poem that I first heard when I was at school and I would say I read it probably 20 times a year. Mark Bishop: And the poem is called A Removal From Terry Street and it's only about 15 lines. And what I love about it is it finishes on that, on a beautiful line. That man, I wish him well, I wish him grass. And the context the poem is talking about a family removing, you know, working class family moving away from Hull and the neighbour is looking at them moving out and saying, you know, I wish him well, I wish him grass. And so I think that's just a lovely line that stayed with me. It speaks to the idea that we should all think the best of each other and hope for the futur, and think positive thoughts. Paul Marden: Well, Mark, it's been lovely talking to you. Thank you ever so much for coming on Skip the Queue, telling the story of dynamic Earth and looking forward to what happens next for your amazing attraction. Thank you very much. Mark Bishop: Thank you. Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 19th March 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: https://www.ajah.ae/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-griffiths-63432763/Kelly's final episodeThe transformation of Painshill Park, with Paul Griffiths, Director of PainshillWhat it really takes to launch a podcast. With Kelly Molson and Paul GriffithsPaul Griffiths has worked in the Heritage, Museums and Tourism world now for nearly 30 years.After spending 16 years working in various role for English Heritage, in 2012 he moved to the Mary Rose Museum as Head of Operations to oversee the opening and operations of the multi award winning museum, welcoming over one million visitors before in 2018 taking on moving to the Painshill Park Trust in the role of Director of Painshill. Paul spent 6 years there before his move in December 2024 to Ras Al Khaimah one of the seven Emirates that make up the UAE. In this exciting brand new role Paul is Chief Executive Officer of the Al Hamra Heritage Village, part of the Al Qasimi Foundation. Transcriptions: Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Visitor Attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.Longtime listeners will remember my guest today, Paul Griffiths, when he was CEO at Painshill Park, from when he was interviewed back in season one by Kelly. In today's episode, Paul comes back to talk about his new role as CEO of Al Jazeera Al Hamrah Heritage Village in Ras Al Khaimah in the UAE. Now, I'm always interested in the first 90 days of people's experience in a job, so we'll be talking more about that and his for the future. Paul Marden: Paul, welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul Griffiths: Hello. Thanks for having me, Paul. Great to be here. Paul Marden:  Long time. Listeners will know that we always start with an icebreaker question and our guests don't get to know that one in advance. I think this one's a pretty kind one. I was pretty mean to Paul Sapwell from Hampshire Cultural Trust a couple of weeks ago because I asked him whether it was Pompey or Saints and for political reasons, he felt that he had to abstain from that.Paul Griffiths: Testing his interest. I'd have gone Pompey at the time because that's where we live. Well, did live. Paul Marden: Oh, there you go. There you go. So you've moved over from Portsmouth. You're now in the UAE. Tell listeners, what is that one? Home comfort that after three months away from Blighty, you're missing? Is it proper English marmalade? Paul Griffiths: Do you know what? I've been able to get hold of most things, but I've not been able to get. I know people who cook properly, so I should be able to do this myself, but I haven't. Cauliflower cheese, one thing I'm missing from home, that doesn't sell it anywhere in a sort of pre pack or frozen form. I can even get hold of Yorkshire puddings in Spinny's supermarket, but I can't get hold of cauliflower cheese. Paul Marden: Can you get cauliflowers? Paul Griffiths: Can get cauliflowers. I'm sure I can make cheese sauce if I knew what it was doing. But you normally. I'm so used to normally buying a pack of cheese, cauliflower cheese to have in my Sunday roast. Paul Marden: Okay. So if I ever get to come out, I need to bring out a plastic wrapped, properly sealed so that it doesn't leak on the plane. Cauliflower cheese? Paul Griffiths: Yes, please. Yeah, absolutely. Paul Marden: So your last episode was actually. Or your last full episode was back in season one, episode 22. So five years ago and the world has changed a lot in five years, but most recently it's changed a lot for you, hasn't it? So why don't you tell listeners a little bit about what's happened to you since you were with us in season one? Paul Griffiths: Wow. Yeah, well, season one seems an age away, doesn't it, now with all the wonderful guests youu've had since on Skip the Queue, it's been a different program completely. But, yeah, no, well, back then I was at Painshill, were coming out of a pandemic and I remember, you know, Kelly and I were chatting over all the different avenues that everyone had gone and what we've done at Painshill and that continued brilliantly. And however, my life has taken a change in. In sense of where I am, but I'm still doing the same sort of work, so. Which is, you know, when our industry, and it's such a fabulous industry, it's great to stay in it. Paul Griffiths: So I am now over in the United Army Emirates in the Emirate of Ras Alhaima, which is the third biggest of the seven emirates that make up the UAE, behind Abu Dhabi and, of course, Dubai. So I was approached, God, nearly always, this time last year, about a call over here. Yes. My recruitment company got in touch and went through, you know, had a good look at the job description and thought, well, actually, we'll throw my hat into the ring. And applied, went for a series of online interviews with the recruitment company, then an online interview with the people over here at various departments within the Al Kassimme Foundation and the Department of Museums and Antiquities. Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, looking at this brand new job, which I'm now lucky enough to be in, I then was flown out in August for a round of interviews, met all the team. You know, one of those things that you later discover, the whole real four days was one big interview, although there was. There was a central one. But of course, everyone you were meeting along the way was being asked to feedback, And I love chatting to people and enjoying people's company. So actually went for dinners and lunches and all sorts, which was just a lovely four days and almost felt like a free hit in many ways, Paul. Well, this is going to be a brilliant experience. Paul Griffiths: If I don't get the job, I'm going to have a great four days in Rasta Taima, seeing it, meeting everyone, enjoying the time here. And, you know, the more time I spent here, the more time with the team, the more time, you know, going and visiting sites. I just became more and more that this would be an amazing job. Obviously gave my absolute everything, did loads of research, gave everything in the interview. The interview took a rather unusual turn. After the sort of hour and a half of questions and my questions, I was asked to leave the room for a short period. Not unusual in that sense because I was, you know, I wasn't just going to leave and go because obviously I was in their hands for four days. Paul Griffiths: But the doctor, Natasha Ridge, the executive director of the foundation, came out the interview and said, “Right, that's all gone really well. We're really pleased. We're now off to the palace for you to meet His Highness Sheikh Saud, who is the ruler of Ras Al Khaimah and on the Supreme Council of the UAE.” So I was sort of, I went to one of the small meeting rooms you. Now I know that. Now I know where I was, where I went. But at that point I had no idea. One of the lovely. There's a very much a service thing here. Paul Griffiths: So, you know, we have in the Heritage Village as well later we have a wonderful member of our team, Geraldine, who does lots of cooking, prepares stuff and just had a wonderful fish taco lunch because we're four hours ahead of you, of course, here in Alaihi. So, yeah, so one of the guys came in with, gave me an English breakfast tea and sort of, you know, sat there reviewing what, thinking what on earth was I going to be asked by His Highness. And then was put into one of the drivers and we drove up through Rat Sahma City, through into the palace, up the long driveway and there I was sort of eventually, after about 20 minutes, presented with. Presented to Sheikh Sword who asked me, chatted, asked various questions. Paul Griffiths: I don't think there could be many interviews that you end up with His Highness in the second half of it. You know, it's sometimes a presentation. Yeah. So that was. I was there for about half an hour and that's your time over and off he goes. And off I went back to then go and have dinner with some of the team. So it was a very surreal afternoon. Paul Marden: Being interviewed by royalty. But when you're not expecting that as part of the interview process, that must be quite unnerving. Paul Griffiths: I had a heads up that at some point in my trip I might meet him, but there was no formal arrangements. I had me had to get in a diary. So it hadn't even crossed my mind that's what was about to happen. When I was asked to leave the meeting room, I just thought maybe they wanted to come back with more questions or, you know, say I hadn't gone well, whatever. But, yeah, no, that was the. I took that as a good sign. I thought, well, actually, if I'm being whisked up there, the interview must have gone relatively well because I'm sure they would present me to shake sword if it hadn't gone so well. Paul Marden: Yeah. You'd hope that he would be towards the end of the cycle of the interview round. Paul Griffiths: Yeah. Paul Marden: Not doing the early sifting of CVs. Paul Griffiths: No. He certainly had seen who I was because he asked me some questions about where I'd worked and. Okay, things like that. So he'd obviously seen a CV. He's a very. I mean, I've met him subsequently a few times. I've been fortunate to be a dinner hosted by him a couple of weeks ago. But he is a very, very intelligent man. Works really hard. I mean, work. He, you know, for him, he spends every minute working on the emirate. He ruled, he. He's the ruler. But he's almost a. It's a sort of combo, I guess he's all Prime Minister at the same time as being the ruler. So he is constantly working. You know, I'm really committed and I'm lucky in many ways that where I am working at the Heritage Village is his real. Paul Griffiths: One of his real pet projects that he's really driving forward. So, yes, we come with sort of royal. Royal approval, if you like. So. Yeah. Paul Marden: Excellent. So I. I've not been to the Emirates before, so for those of us that have not been, tell us a little bit about Ras Al Khaimah, of course. Paul Griffiths: Well, Ras Al Khaimah is one of the quieter Emirates mentioned. Sheikh Saud there, he's really driving a sort of, you know, a sort of agenda of bringing in more tourists. But he wants to use culture and territory as part of that. So, you know, it's a more relaxed, low level, if that makes sense. It's not Dubai, it's not full on, it's more relaxed Emirate. It's relaxed in cultural and many of the ways it's not, as you know, some of the other Emirates are, for example, completely dry. Ras Al Khaimah has given licenses to hotels and big restaurants in hotels for serving drinks. And there are a number of sellers where you can purchase for your consumption your own home, whereas Sharjah, you can't purchase any alcohol, for example, so it's a bit more chilled like that. It's a lovely place. Paul Griffiths: We're very fortunate to have the heavier mountains go through the far side of Ras Al Khaimah. So where I'm based is more on the seafront but then not, you know, I can see the mountains behind and there's a number of drives up into the mountains which are absolutely fabulous. Up to the Jebel Jais, which is the highest point in the UAE, we have the world's longest and fastest zip wire. I have not gone anywhere near that yet. Goes up to 100km an hour and is the longest over from the top of the mountain, whisking you off to the other side. I think it looks terrifying. But my. Paul Marden: I'm more interested in cables that take you to the top of the mountain. Maybe with some skis on my feet than I am attaching myself to a cable and going down the mountain. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Paul Griffiths: There's a toboggan ride as well up there as well.Paul Marden: Oh, I'd love that. Paul Griffiths: So that's the toboggan ride's on my to do list when the family get off, I'll save it for then and take my son Barney on that. But you know, there's all this sort of venture sports up on the top of the mountain and driving up there is remarkable. They put a proper road in. It's not the scary driving up the Alps, terrified what's going to come around the other corner. It's very like driving up a road, you know, normal sort of dual carriageway, two lanes each way and then right going through the mountains to the other side to one of the other Emirates for Jazeera , for example. So you're over on the Indian Ocean side Gulf Vermont. That road is just beautiful. There's no traffic on it, you know. Paul Griffiths: So Ras Al Khaimah is only about an hour and hour to an hour and a half from Dubai airport. And Dubai is a sort of people go to Dubai in the same way that we, you know, you'd go to London, I'd go to London when I was in Port Soviet, we would. It's now, you know, it's not considered a. There's always someone from work who's in Dubai every day almost for some reason. So nipping up to Dubai, I was like, I went to a dinner there last week and you know, it just seemed very normal that he jumped in a car and drove up to Dubai and came back that evening. Whereas. Seems remarkable actually to be doing that. But yeah, so because of where we are, Abu Dhabi is about two and a half hours away.Paul Griffiths: And we are the northern point of the Emirate, So we border on to Oman, split into a number of areas. Again, I didn't know any of this till I got here, but there's a part of Oman that's at the top of Ras Al Khaimah. And so, yeah, so it's a beautiful Emirate with nature, with mountain areas, which does get a bit chillier when you go up the mountains. I looked quite silly in my T shirt and shorts when I went up there on a Sunday afternoon. People were going past me like they were going skiing. You know, people wore coats and hats and looking at me as if I'm really daft. But I was still. It's interesting that because it's winter obviously everywhere here at the moment and at home, but it's. Paul Griffiths: People here are often telling me it's a cold day when I'm still standing. I still feel really quite warm. But yeah, finding that sort ofPaul Marden: Talking 30s at the moment for you, aren't we? Paul Griffiths: Yeah, it's a little bit. The last couple days have been down in the lower 20s, really comfortable. But when we last weekend, people were getting a bit nervous that summer had come very early because it was hitting the early 30s last week. So I don't know how for me, when we get to August, when it's in the mid, late 40s with real high humidity, I think I'm just going to go from aircon building to aircon building to aircon building.Paul Marden: I am such a Goldilocks when it comes to that sort of thing. Not too hot, not too cold, it needs to be just right. So I would definitely struggle in that kind of heat. Look, let's talk a little bit about where you are in the new job. So you've taken on the role of CEO of Al Jazeera Al Hamra Heritage Village. So tell me a little bit about the village. Why is this village so historic? Paul Griffiths: Well, it's a really interesting one, Paul, because it is very important, but it's not that old. And that's why what coming to me about making it more alive is something that's going to be crucial to us. So the village has been lived in for many years. It was a pearl farming village. So most of the people who worked here were doing pearl farming, which is pretty horrible job to do. You were, again, learning about this. You were jumping off boats, going to the ocean depths for up to three to four minutes. No protection really, apart from a very light shirt and some little bits on your fingers. But actually you're nothing on your eyes. Paul Griffiths: So you're having to look through the salt water, find the pearls come up and they were going up and down sometime 15, 16 times or more a day. And there's a fascinating exhibition in Dubai at the Al Shindagha Museum which really does focus on how this worked and how these guys were living. So, so it's a real. So that was the village. So the village had that, it obviously had then had fishing men, merchants making boats, merchants selling, trading wares. And Ras Al Khaimah has been quite a strategic part as all of the UAE really for the sort of trades coming from the Middle east and out into the Gulf. So the villages was being lived in up until the very early 70s. Paul Griffiths: Up in the 1970s the Al Za'abi tribe who were based here were offered I guess a new life is the only way to look at it in Abu Dhabi with new jobs, with land, with housing and it's just a better way like pearl farming was now being done so much cheaper and easier in the Orient in Japan mainly. So that was, that dropped away. There wasn't the other merchant trading going on. So actually the oil boom basically led the tribe to almost one up sticks and head to Abu Dhabi. And in many ways good story because we're still in touch with quite considerable amounts of the tribes people who were here. Lots of the elders have done wonderful oral histories, videos talking about their lives here. But this village survived as just fell into ruins, but actually wasn't developed. Paul Griffiths: And where it becomes important is this would have been what all of the Gulf would have looked like before the oil boom. The UAE wasn't a wealthy nation before then. You know, when I went up to Dubai and spent some time at the Etihad Museum, which is based around which Etihad Union is the not Around Man City Stadium should point out very much around about how the UAE had come together and how, you know, so it wasn't the wealthiest nation, but actually they discovered oil. They then brought seven Emirates together. It then has flourished in the ways that we now know what Dabi and ifwe looks like and even Ras Al Khaimah in some parts and really quite glamorous. But this village survived. Paul Griffiths: So although it fell into ruin, all the other fishing, farmhome fishing, pearl farming villages across the Gulf had become, just got destroyed, knocked down, you know, turned into hotels and high rises. And actually when you visit the other Emirates, lots of them are now recreating their historic areas or re purposing some of the historic buildings and they're doing it very well. In Dubai, Sharjah has actually completely rebuilt. It's what it calls the Harp Sharjah, which is. Which was its historic sort of areas, but. Paul Marden: Right. Paul Griffiths: But this survived. Many of the buildings had fallen into disrepair. And what we've been doing for the last few years, as the Al Qasimi Foundation and the Department of Antiquities and Museums is restoring a number of these buildings, we've then sort of gone into a sort of activation so you can walk around. So we've got, you know, carving now. Only a year ago it was mostly sand. We've now got a path going through it, so you can walk in. And the job that I've really been asked to do initially on arrival here is to really push that activation forward and really look at my sort of. What I've done in the past and what we've seen other places do and think about what can we do to bring this bit more to life? Paul Griffiths: Because it's the sort of storage village is around the 1970s. Well, it was abandoned in the 1970s. Well, you know, for us from the UK, from lots of other nationalities, actually, something in the 70s isn't very old. It's in our lifespan. You know, we are looking at this going well, actually. So when I was talking to a lot of. So RAK TDA's basically visit RAK tourism authority. So they are really supportive in wanting to push Al Jazeera Al Hamra Heritage Village, which will from now on abbreviate to AJAH to save me. Keep saying that. Long tanned. So they are really keen that we're doing more stuff. So why would a tourist want to come? What is there to see once you're here? Paul Griffiths: On top of some abandoned and now beautifully restored houses, mosques, you know, things that you would have expected in a village of, you know, a thousand or so population, 500 houses, you know, so more than a thousand people, really. So that's the sort of plan in that way. So in many ways I've got a sort of blank canvas to play with. But, you know, money's not unlimited, so it's about. So working closely with local communities, working with, you know, local traders, looking at what could we bring into the village on the back of the art fair. I know we'll talk about later, but it's, you know, this has been a. This is a real challenge for me to. How do I take this sort of place forwards.Paul Marden: In my mind's eye, we go to the Weald & Downland Living Museum so open air museum, lots of houses recreating life through the ages. Is that the sort of experience that I'm going to get if I come to the village of I'm going to see the properties and I'm going to see this previous way of life come to life in front of me?Paul Griffiths: Well at the moment you'll see you just see in the houses and the buildings but you're walking around looking at historic buildings but we have got a number of the houses we've put in. Each video is at the moment showing the audio visuals so you can walk around and listen to members of the tribes chatting about their youth and what's happening and you can see the buildings in real life. I guess what I'm looking for this is telling the story a little bit of the village which we don't initially do that well at the moment that's no criteria. Yes, this is what we need to do going forward. There's been several stages of activation When I came last August part not many the paths weren't all finished. We didn't have anywhere for visitor services to be at the front.Paul Griffiths: We only had a very small sort officey area which has now been built up to where I'm. Where I'm sat today. So I think what you're going to get is a multi as a blend of traders who will be in our suitcase. The Souk is fully restored sooke and shopping market area so that's my first point is to move some people in there. So I've already got a goldsmith and move to her studio in got some handicrafts we've got some textile people moving in the. Paul Griffiths: The main gallery of Nassau Heyman Design Gallery which is the one big gallery where artists can go is going to have a sort of satellite shop if you like not shop a satellite so there will be pieces of work there are in here with their little souvenir store which they sell because they get people a lot of what the design gallery does is making souvenirs of Ras Al Khaimah that are all handmade so quite special gifts. So what we're hoping is tying up with our local hoteliers who many of which have not been so it's bringing them in and they need something more to see to send their guests here. Paul Griffiths: So you know talking to some of them over lunch when I hosted some of them on Saturday it was a case of you know actually, can they send their clients and say, you can do all your holiday shopping because at the moment they're sending people to the shopping malls which are just, you know, nice, but actually merchandise them to go to a heritage village, get that experience of what the golf would have been like and bags of shopping at the same time. Paul Marden: So who doesn't love a. A museum gift shop at the end? So, you know. Paul Griffiths: Exactly. And we don't really have that here at the moment from an Al Jazeera perspective. So on my plan for this year is to put in. We've got an info booth, as it's called at the moment. It's not a world. It's not the best customer service friendly. It's like a caravan but with some windows. And yeah, it's probably a better. Now it's got air conditioning. Yes. But it doesn't work very well for customers. You're trying to talk through little windows because you can only have small windows to keep the air con working, not have too much open to. It's just passing out. Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, so I'm looking at building this summer, hopefully. Fingers crossed, touch wood, a visitor welcome centre, which is something we're really pushing along with, which will be lovely because that will be that proper visitor welcome with a shop with an induction into an introduction. Sorry, into the Al Jazeera story. And then let people go. And then when they get to the far end, they'll be the souk full of. He says again, hopefully slowly filling them out, but full of traders and local craftspeople and people who are. Even if they're not originally local, they're based in rack, so they are considered local. The UAE is built up of a lot of expat population. When I say expats, I mean just English people from around the world. It's a really accepting, welcoming community. I've been really. Everyone says hello to you as you're walking into the supermarket shops. There's no. Whoever they are where you're from. Paul Griffiths: Everyone's talking to each other because the local population know they've had to bring people in because there's thousands more jobs than there are Emirati population in Ras Al Khaimah. So, you know, it's always been. And when you look at the foundation of the UAE, it was about, we will need to bring people in to bring this. To build this nation with us. So, you know, it's been always a sort of welcome and melting pot of different people. Paul Marden: Yeah, amazing. Look, you mentioned when we had our initial chat. You've been there now three months, you've been doing lots of visiting of other attractions. Because I think you said to me, which I thought was quite interesting, that you were. There's lots that you bring with you from the UK in your experience, but there's lots of best practice and good practice happening within the Emirates already. So you've been kind of going out and visiting a lot of cultural venues and attractions in the Emirates. Tell me a little bit about those. Paul Griffiths: Yeah, so it's been a minute of a manic last month in February, because we've had the art festival. I know we're going to keep hinting at it, we'll get to it at some point, but when I've had some time away, what's been fabulous, it's just sort of. And I think as well, because the family aren't here in my own at the moment, said, “All right, I've got some time off, let's go and explore.” Yeah. So I've sort of driven across to Fajera, spent time in Sharjah and took myself up for a weekend in Dubai, which was fantastic. Booked a very reasonably priced hotel and just spent a weekend flowering around everywhere and just really immersed in my. So and only scratch the surface. There's so much more to see. So, yeah, so I've been going and looking at. Paul Griffiths: Well, you know, I don't want to do something that's not. There'll be alien to, obviously, the culture here. And that's been really. What's been great fun in the last few months is it's not just going into a new job, you know, and learning that. It's actually been a terrifying, at some points, fabulous experience. I was learning new cultures, new working lives. You know, things are working. It's done very differently here. You know, there's a different hierarchical process we have in the UK and permissions are needed in different places. And that's not. I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing, it's just learning those different things. So I've been learning all these different cultures. You know, we're just coming into Ramadan, which I've had no real experience with before. And that is. That is a massive thing here. You know, it's the month. Paul Griffiths: Every billboard you go past is someone trying to sell something for Ramadan, whether it be a new chest of drawers, you know, your family needs this new dining table for Ramadan. It's a bit like, you know, you will see at Christmas at home, everyone catching on, you know, IKEA will be saying, new table and chairs for Christmas. You know, it's. It's not. It's a sort of different repeating itself. You know, those sort of signs you have around the supermarket. Christmas back home. They're all up now in supermarkets here for Ramadan. Paul Marden: Right. Paul Griffiths: Encouraging what people are going to buy for when they break the fast at sunset Iftar. So, you know, so it's all sort of promoting. You need this for. So it's a real. We're going to a massive thing. And that's been a real sort of learning, cultural thing for me, which has been great because actually I've always enjoyed, when I'm traveling, learning about other cultures, you know, it's always been for me, I always try and visit museums, galleries, learn about the place I'm at. And so actually living somewhere and learn about someone who's been. I think it's added to the fun of the experience. But back to your question. Paul Griffiths: Yes, I've been traveling wherever the possibility to start to look at other historic venues, looking at where they've, you know, restored historic markets and souk areas and what sort of things are going in there, what are people doing there. Up in Dubai, there is a place called Al Shindagar Museum, which is where they've. Some of the historic buildings that have been saved by the creek of Dubai have been turned into the most amazing series of museums, is the only way I can describe it, because each house is a different gallery or different theme. So you have the story of the creek being built up, the story of Dubai seafarers. There was a faith and. Faith and religion room, talking about Islam and different cultures, how that's worked around Dubai. Paul Griffiths: Dubai being built up as a city, lots about the rulers and families, but every house you went to is a different place. What was so impressive there from a visitor experience perspective was the training that Stafford had was sensational. You know, you go into someone, you think they're obviously being managed really well because obviously this is. You don't just train. So obviously someone oversees this really well. But clearly the training, everywhere you went, the customer service was exceptional. People coming out from behind counters, giving you introductions, making sure you had everything needed, you know, as you were leaving. Have you got any questions? All those things we try and all have tried to teach over the years, and in many ways we've all been different levels of success of that. Paul Griffiths: But what was amazing was they also got the security guards in on the act as well, because there's a real culture here that there's a separate, they're secure, they're very different. You know, there's, we've got them here, they're in very much brown security, clearly marked, you know, protecting places. But what they've done there is they had clearly trained those security guards as well, because every security guard you came across was getting in the act of chatting to visitors, even if their English wasn't brilliant, they were really keen to direct you to the next. Come this way. So the next place, oh, you finished that room, you must go upstairs. And you know, that sort of. Paul Griffiths: And whether they, you know, really just said, look, you can have a much more interesting day than just standing, staring at people walking around. You can actually chat to visitors from around the world and get talkative. And I just had the most amazing. I ended up in this museum for over five and a half hours or something silly like that. And I thought I was going to be there an hour because it was priced very reasonably. You know, when you judge a museum on, well, actually I paid this, I'm probably going to be here for that amount of time. And actually it was just, you know, I found myself stopping for a coffee, stopping for lunch. But I was so impressed by the way the staff interacted. Paul Griffiths: They also had a number of cultural local guides as well, who really were, you know, in the full sort of Emirati national dress, but wanted to press on. This is where. This is what I'm doing. So I've some, you know, I traveled across to Fujairah every week and was in a, an old, what was the ruler's summer house. And the guy, and the guy who ran it just took me on a tour. I didn't ask for a tour. He just said, would you. Well, he said, should I take you around? Yes, please. And we had this great hours experience as he was just chatting about all the rooms. And I think people here are very keen to share their culture and their heritage and very welcoming. Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, so I've done quite a bit traveling around the other parts of the UAE. I can't go out of the UAE because I've only got a hire car at the moment, so I can't go out to Omar, that's on my list. You get yourself a car. I can travel north of the border into Oman and explore that. But for now, seven emirates to. So no shortage of places. And I've not been up to Abu Dhabi yet, so still with that on my list. So yeah, Paul Marden: Wowzers. Okay. So I guess, and this is completely, what would I feel like if I was in your position of going to this new country, immersing myself in this relatively new place that you're leading? How do I say this without flattering you? You were a well connected guy. If I went to events, everybody knew you. You had this wide network of people having worked in the UK in the attraction sector for a long time and you've now jumped over to the UAE. What's happened to the network? How does that feel? I mean it must feel slightly kind of worrying or nerve wracking. What have you done to build the network in this new place? Paul Griffiths: There's a number of points to that. Right, so let's answer in a few minutes. So the world's a smaller place so I'm still occasionally having teams call zoom calls with really close ex colleagues, friends, you know, I'm sure, I mean I always say I'm sure but everyone keeps saying, “Oh I'm really loving the journey so please keep posting. So I am going to keep posting and probably going to start to annoy people after a while”, but the feedback so far is everyone saying we're loving the journey and following you with it and feel like we're on the journey. So I will carry on. I'm sort of keeping writing stuff up and sharing it and also I don't know how long I'll be here for. You know, probation is massive over here. I have to keep my fingers crossed. Paul Griffiths: I pass probation which is a six month period because it's a real right the UAE all not just off and across the UAE. It's a real big, you know, much more than at home, much more structured. On day one was given a series and this isn't a bad thing at all, a series of probation tasks, you know, around reports that are around other historic parts because the job that I've come over will eventually evolve into a wider heritage role. But at the moment the real focus is on Al Jazeera Al Hamra, which is great. Get one site, get it going, then see where we go next. So I think I'm still connected to lots of people back home. I'm still looking, seeing everyone's posts and enjoy. Paul Griffiths: I mean my usual jealousy of not being part of the ALVA network anymore as they're all having that great time in Belfast in the last couple of days and seeing everyone's post, not just one or two, but everyone you know, Bernard down with you know everyone's post. I wish I was there with them.Paul Marden: The FOMO was real. So I had Andy Povey in the office with me yesterday and we're both saying the FOMO about that ALVAe vent was very real for both of us having. Paul Griffiths: Having spent. You know I was at the Mary Rose few years where we joined ALVA and go experiencing those council weeks and knowing just hey how much they are great for networking A. You get very spoiled because every host wants to really show off what they can do and I think the Titanic always do that because we go there before for a council meeting but it's. Yeah. So you still see this stuff. So it's still sit home and there's still people I can reach out to.Paul Marden: Of course.Paul Griffiths: If we need to and I'm still calling on people things, you know, different projects we're doing here. But then again it's about slowly building up that network here and I think there's a slightly. You know, there's a. Within Ras Al Khaimah I've started making connections with lots of other people in the Heritage world and. And outside that. So we're already, you know, connecting up with different people from different parts of Ras Al Khaimah, the work we're going to do moving forward and for me I think it's been just a. I'm sort of still pinching myself I'm here and that sort of. So many things keep happening and you know. The weather's been gorgeous because I've come out of a grim English weather to this quite nice winter here where it's mostly been late mid-20s. Paul Griffiths: You're in she and shorts when you're off duty. You know, there's other things. The thing that really surprised me is how smart actually the dress code is for business over here. Paul Marden: Okay. Paul Griffiths: So I had to sort of all the usual brands that from home Mount Marks is next everything here so you could order online and get it delivered quite quickly. So I had sort of came out of one wardrobe thinking I was going to be far more in polo shirt and linen trousers are sort of very sort of summer at Painshill look, you know outdoor. But actually yeah my colleagues are still. Because of the aircon atmosphere. Lots of colleagues particularly in the head office are in suits. A bit like where I would have been when back in my London days. When we're in the office you were in a shirt tie. So yes, I had to sort of buy A back home wardrobe almost once I got traveled out with very lightweight clothing. So yes, it's a bit different in that sense. Paul Marden:  Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about life as an expat. How have you found the transition? Paul Griffiths: Fine so far. I say there's lots of bits around work and practice and you know, no amount of inductions will be able to help you on some little faux pas you can make about not realising where you need approvals for staff. And obviously coming from the. For the last six years of being director of Painshill and only from feeding into a board of directors, board of trustees who we'd see quarterly and you know, I chat to the chairman every week. There was a lot of me sort of making those sort of decisions instantly was here, you know, particularly as were part of the foundation and we are representing Sheikh Saud as his name's in the title of the organization now, making sure we're going through those tick sheets. Paul Griffiths: You know, if I want to do anything that needs to spend more money, that's out budget, that is going to his Highness to be signed off. So any projects we're doing, we're needing to make cases to the highest man in the country to actually get those, you know, sign offs and things. And I'm not, that's not a bad thing. But you know, it's just that from an expat I guess it's getting used to. Everything's available here. Not the big supermarket up the road sells Waitrose and Marxist products and has a room at the back for non Muslims where you push the button, door opens, it's like a little bit of a naughty boys room. Paul Griffiths: You push back door open, slides you walk in and there's the pork heaven, you know, there's bacon, there's pork scratching, patays, you know, all because it's a real, you know, it's not just there's so many expats here, particularly from the Philippines and stuff who obviously pork is a big part of their diet. So yeah, that's available. I said earlier on there's cellars where you can pick up a great beer or a couple of glasses of bottle of wine or whatever you want. So actually it's not that I found myself flying into this really different world and I'm not really. Paul Marden:  It's a melting pot, isn't it? Paul Griffiths: Yeah. And I'm not someone who's ever been since very young, you know, going off to nightclubs or anything like that. But if you wanted that There is that. The hotels. So actually, if you're a younger person coming out and you wanted that nightlife, the hotels, particularly on Margin island and Minnal Arab, the tubing hotels have really nice restaurants, fully licensed clubs and stuff. But, you know, actually I found sort of the work is busy. Everyone's, you know, lots going on, actually, just going back to, you know, I was in a hotel for the first two months, which wasn't a dreadful thing because it was an apartment hotel. So, yeah, I had enough and now we've moved. I've moved into a villa ready for the family. Come out hopefully in about a month's time.Paul Marden:  Oh, that'd be exciting. Paul Griffiths: Yeah. So that's nice. So we've got the back onto the golf course. It's quite, you know, it's a nice place to be. It's going to be nice and, you know. Paul Griffiths: Yeah, so I've not struggled adapting because it's not. It's not that, you know, normally I've got a wonderful team here, Asia, you know, so with one Emirati and some Filipinos and other people from around the. From around the world. So that's been nice. And it's melting pot of learning their cultures as well as the local culture and. Yeah. And then they eat rice with everything. So it's. Yeah. Every lunchtime there's a bowl of rice, big bowl of salad in the main course and there's me pouring on the one on the salad, everyone else on the rice. But, yeah, it's been great, Paul. I mean, I can't. It's been one of those. Every moment you think this is just a great place to be. Paul Marden: Good. Let's go back to Al Jazeera and talk a little bit about some of the events that have been going on. So I know you're coming to the end of the Ras Al Khaimah Art Festival. Tell me a little bit about that and how well that's gone. Paul Griffiths: It's been brilliant. I know. I had no idea what to expect. First time for this. So this is the 13th International Art Fair. It started off back in the small museum back in the city of Central Town, moved to here, I think, five years ago is what I'm saying, and slowly grown every year since then. So this is the biggest one we've done, really. Lots of massive sponsors on board from across the Emirates, actually fully supported by His Highness, who's been here at least four times, if not five, since we've had the vessel. He was here at the opening ceremony for the big launch, you know it was, and it was like a proper opening ceremony. Paul Griffiths: Everyone sat round with a band and speakers and you know like not quite Olympics but you know it was a proper event. This is the opening of it and it felt like a big event. Yeah. All my female members of my team had, were given time off in the day to do hair and makeup. It was proper. Everyone looked, everyone looked the business, it was lovely. You know everyone was scrubbed up from the maintenance team to, you know, our executive director looking fabulous in a brand new dress. You know it was really was. No, I've had a new suit, I got a new suit for the occasion. Paul Griffiths: So yeah, it was a lovely evening and then it's rolled ever since and for me it's been wonderful because I've seen people in this village which has been quite quiet since I'd arrived and it's sort of been okay, how are we going to get this? But actually clearly putting something on has attracted a complete cross spectrum audience. So you know, we have people coming in, absolutely fascinating, obsessed with the art, beautiful and it's artists I should say from around the world. It's all exhibited outside or inside the little houses. So you know lots of the pieces have been blown up quite big and quite impressive. I mean do look at it on the website, you know people, you know if you go to ajah.ae you can then click on from there.Paul Marden: We'll put the links and everything in the show notes so people be able to find that. Paul Griffiths: It's been, but it's been, for me it's been fabulous because we've seen so many people in, you know I was, you know, we've had, we've got pop up restaurants so this won't mean anything to people back home but the restaurant called Puro P U R O has a restaurant at the top of the mountain at Jebel Jais. Really almost impossible to get booking, you know you have to book months advance for lunch or dinner. It's the place that everybody, both locals, internationals and tourists want to see and often frequented by his Highness. They've got a pop up restaurant here which just is fabulous. Paul Griffiths: They we've had a lovely couple, Kelly and Paolo in running a restaurant called Antica which is a sort of the chef's Italian Paolo but he's lived in Australia so it's a fusion of Australian middle Italy, sort of historic villagey type cuisine with an Emirates twist. But you're just served four or five courses without there's not a menu. It's not a restaurant as such, so it's sort of a sharing experience. But you know, the food is amazing. So I was fortunate to have dinner. Well, I've actually been fortunate enough to have dinner in Antica twice and lunch there as well. But one of the dinners I was then wandering around the village about 10 o'clock at night was full of people, you know, families just. Paul Griffiths: There is a different culture over here that people do more stuff in the evenings because of the temperature and a different way of life because the local people aren't obviously, for obvious reasons, down the pub on a Friday night, they're doing stuff with the family and you go past cafes and even outside of the village, you know, 9, 10 o'clock on a Friday night, they're full of people sitting very beautifully dressed in their finest, drinking coffee and eating desserts. That's a big thing. People seem to love coffee and desserts. Paul Marden: Okay. Paul Griffiths: But, but then of course it's because because of the heat most of the year we'll spend more time indoors resting in the day and then ready to go out at night and do some more stuff. So yeah, so we've had this sort of here in the evenings. It's really fun. What was interesting is our hours for the festival were meant to be midweek. So Monday we always close. Tuesday to Thursday we're meant to be open till 6 o'clock and then Friday, Saturday, Sunday open to 11:00. Often struggling to get people out then the first night. So the Tuesday night was the first night. Medusa goes at 6:00. 5:45, I had a queue of at least 40 people trying to get in. So we just had to make an on the hooves decision. Paul Griffiths: We're going to stay open later. And then we just opened till 8:00 in the midweek. We didn't want to push it too much because of obviously from the staff welfare perspective, an hour's work. But actually that first night were just. Myself and Sikrat, who's the director of the festival, Emirati. Wonderful. Emirati has been my cultural bodyguard in many ways because he's been the person, my go to person for what should I do here? What about this person? How should I do this? So Spencer Crouch just stood there. Look at this crowd. We both just said, “Well we can't turf them away. This would be daft.” So yeah, so we've had. And we've had about 40, 000 visitors will have come through the door by the end of the festival in 28 days. Paul Griffiths: The artworks then going to stay up in place for Ramadan. So we'll be working different hours again during Ramadan and this is the first time Al Jazeera will ever do. Has ever done anything special for. Because before now it's just been a come and visit, walk in, do what you like, leave now. We're trying to structure that visitor experience. So we're going to be for Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays, because Thursday's the sort of Friday night in many ways. Because a lot of people have Fridays off here. Yes, because of the day of prayers and so a lot of people in Ras Al Hamah go to Dubai and Abu Dhabi for work. So Thursday nights they'll travel back. So actually we're going to be open till midnight on Thursday, Friday, Saturday for Ramadan. Paul Griffiths: So people will break the fast with the families and then they want to do the sort of head top of activity. They've now got food back in them and an energy source. And out they come. So again, first time we've done it, hopefully see numbers with the artwork will still be in place. We're then working on some different options around cuisine, food, coffee and hopefully get some musicians in as well, just to give a bit of an atmosphere. But it is a holy month, so it's not. It's not parties, but it's enjoying the family. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So what does the future look like for the Heritage Village and for tourism and attractions more generally in RAK? Paul Griffiths: I think for RAK itself, we're trying to bring more tourists in then trying to get the most hotels. Interestingly, as they had a lunch with five of our local big hotels at the weekend using. Using our Antico restaurant, this is excuse to have another lunch there and invite some people in and just take on their views, which is great. So just chatting and getting their thoughts on it. They were saying what. What happens in Iraq a lot at the moment is people are finding the hotels through travel agents, through, you know, searches. I know when were looking before I came out here, I know Ras Al Hamra came up on a Thomas Cumbin telescope. Yeah, similar. What am I thinking of? Probably Tui, I guess, or someone like, you know, someone like that. Paul Griffiths: I was doing a search for when went to Canary, but up came Ras Al Khaimah as a hotel and what they were saying. A lot of people will book that and have no idea really what Ras Al Khaimah is, other than it's part of the UAE. Some people think it's part of Dubai, you know, actually, because it's not, they don't realize it's seven emirates, etc. So a lot of people are booking their sort of tourists, their hotels. Our job is to try and then get them out and attract them to do other stuff. So there's lots of adventure tourism going on at the moment. We talked about the zip wire and lots of hiking, walking, camel rail, camel riding, you know, trips to the desert where you can zoom around in 4x Fours and go karts and stuff. Paul Griffiths: So from my perspective of the Heritage village is about bringing it more alive, bringing more people in, promoting it, more linking up with these sorts of hoteliers, concierges. And this is really early days for us because this has always been sort of slightly done but not really pushed yet. And sort of listening to what their advice is and seeing how we can act upon it, you know, and what sort of stuff we can take forward because, you know, there's a lot to be done. And there's lots of other heritage sites across rat about 90 on the list of actual heritage sites. And some of those are real ruins that you're never going to be able to do anything with. Paul Griffiths: Those sort of English Heritage free sites, you know, the ones you stumble across with a little brown sign and you pull up with a lay by, have a potter around and off you go without seeing anyone. There's a bit like that. But then there's a number of sites that will work well with some activation. You know, we've got Dyer Fort, which is on the World Heritage site tentative list and we're working on projects to slowly take that forward to World Heritage status. Touchwood because it's a really important for, you know, and it's perfect for visits. You climb up to the top, you get the most gorgeous views. You know, really is a gorgeous little site. So more interpretation, more things there is what's needed. But you know, again, this is all early days. Paul Griffiths: So it's all about sort of, you know, each day's excitement. What can we do, what can we push forward, who can we talk to? And what's been great is as the festival's gone on, more people have been coming and chatting to me. Mine have become more, well known. That sounds wrong, goes back to your sort of earlier question about, you know, people are sort of learning about, oh, this person's here now. Paul said, although people can call me sir or Mr. Paul, which is fine. I can deal with that. Keep saying now, people, I keep saying, please don't call me sir. You really don't need to. But it's so culturally great. But Mr. Everyone see everyone externally, she's called Mr. Paul, so I can put up with that. But I was there. Although when we host his. Paul Griffiths: His Highness hosted dinner that I was invited to, I then got even pushed up to His Excellency, which was a title. I want to go. Paul Marden: That's quite nice. Paul Griffiths: Yeah, I love that. Apparently. I always thought that someone else I knew was his title. His Excellency was part of the family, but actually it's. Once you get to a CEO director level in royal that circle, you immediately become His Excellency, so. Paul Marden: Well, there we go. I will correct myself in future communications. Paul Griffiths: Please do. Yeah, but I thought it was wonderful. That's why it's just been lovely, the funny comments coming from people back home saying, oh, well, I've amended my entry in my phone to now shake your he status. But yeah, so. But there's a sort of cultural things. It's just. Okay, right, lovely. That's fun. Paul Marden: It's been a whirlwind for you. It's been really interesting actually, talking about it and understanding more about. About what's happening there, about how exciting it is, this huge opportunity that you've got to make a something out of this beautiful historic village and then that, you know, the remit will grow from there. So I think. I think this has been lovely. We always wrap up our interviews with a book recommendation and you've had this privilege once before. So have you run out of recommendations or do you have something ready for me? Paul Griffiths: Well, I was going to recommend the Red island, an Emirati story, because it's based on Al Jazeera Al Hamra, but I thought that might be a little bit too niche. This guy. So, again, little things have come across. This guy's written a book, Adil, and he's going to be coming to Al Jazeera to do a book reading signing. These little opportunities. I have read the book, I promise. It was actually fascinating because it's all about local culture. It went off in a number of tangents, but actually from a point of view of how the Emirati local culture works and families, it was actually quite a really good induction. But now I've decided to go with a more book for management or book for running. And I don't think anyone's given this before, but if they have, I'm nervous. Paul Griffiths: But this book, Fish!, which is one of my favourite books. I've actually launched this as the Al Jazeera Book Club for the spring. So all the team have a copy. Book clubs are massive over here for work. Every department has one here in the foundation. So this book, Fish, is based around the Seattle fish market. My colleagues who've worked me in the past, both. I can hear them groaning now because they've forced everyone to read this, but it's basically around having fun when you're at work. And it talks about the story of the Seattle fish market, how they were just flogging fish, but actually one day decided, we need to liven this up. We need to want to be here. So introduced, sort of involving the crowd, fish flying through the air. Paul Griffiths: But It's a more of a story about a woman joins, it moves up in a company into a department that no one's been able to manage. She gets to the bottom of using the fish market. And it's just a really fun, easy reading book. And so I recommend it to. To listeners and viewers. Paul Marden: That's brilliant. So listeners, if you would like a copy of Fish,Paul Griffiths: It's quite a cheap book as well, Paul, so please, you have to give one away. So it's not too much money. It's just 9.99 in the non fiction section. So, yeah, cheaper. Paul Marden: Bargain. Bargain. That's the trouble with. So I've been doing a few live events where we have panels, four people with book records, recommendations. That's going to bankrupt me. No, not today. We got a bargain this time. So I like this. Yeah. If you'd like a copy of Fish, if you'd like a copy of Paul's book, head on over to Bluesky and when Wenalyn posts the show note, go over there and repost it and say, I want Paul's book. And the first person to do that will get a copy of the book. Paul, delightful as always. Three times on the podcast, at least. Paul Griffiths: I think this would be number. This would be number four because we had the original episode where Kelly grilled me about life at Painshill. Then we did the Turn the Tables episode when I grilled Kelly on setting up podcasts. And then we did. Then we did the Goodbye to Kelly, whatever it was. 100 episode. And then this. Yeah, four Skip the Queues. Which is always a pleasure and I'm so delighted as you're my favourite podcast, obviously.Paul Marden: It's, oh, you say the nicest things. That must be a record. I need to go back and check that I think four times on the podcast is pretty impressive. Paul Griffiths: I think I should get to add all mine up into one as a total so I can beat Dominic Jones, who's always had the biggest number, isn't he? Paul Marden: So, yeah, so he does and he still does. So, yeah, I think aggregating the number of listens for across all of your episodes, I think that might be within the walls. Let me see what I can do and I'll add everything up and we'll see if you can take Dom's crown. Paul Griffiths: Sorry, Dom. Paul Marden:  Because he's not competitive at all. Paul Griffiths: No, he's not, mate. He's a great guy, though. So, yeah, a friendly rival. Paul Marden: Exactly. Thank you very much, Paul. I would love to keep in touch. Paul Griffiths: Let's keep talking. Paul Marden: I want to hear what happens not just after the first 90 days, but I want to hear what happens in a year's time and two years time. So thank you so much for coming on and telling us about Ras Al-Khaimah and the Heritage Village. It's been lovely. Paul Griffiths: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great. Been a real pleasure. Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.    The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 13th March 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: Website: https://www.crowdconvert.co.uk/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/crowd-convert/Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/crowdconvert.co.ukCrowd Convert has been created to provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world class digital interactions that extend their incredibly moving physical experiences into the digital world. Very simply Crowd Convert is here to Rehmanise Commerce http://kellymolson.co.uk/Kelly Molson - The Lifestyle Agency AdvisorSupporting overwhelmed solo founders who crave long-term sustainable growth, through monthly advisory. Define your niche. Generate leads. Build your pipeline. Founding Rubber Cheese, a lifestyle web development agency in 2003, she grew the agency profitably for over 20 years transforming our success in 2019 by establishing it as the leading web design agency in the visitor attraction sector. She sold the business in 2024, and now support founders building specialist lifestyle agencies to find their own path – agency growth on their terms.• Gain clarity on direction, mission and positioning to win the right clients• Become confident in increasing prices and saying no to ‘stuff' that sucks time and energy• Feel the excitement of building strategic partnerships that deliver your dream clientsBuild an agency on your terms, choosing profitability over pressure, putting life before work.  Transcription: Kelly Molson: Well, look who is back. They've let me loose with the microphone again. I might never leave. Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. Kelly Molson: Can I just say that you pretty much called me a queen just before we began recording this, and I think I wear that crown appropriately today. Andy Povey: Podcast royalty. Kelly Molson: She is back where she belongs in her rightful place on her throne with her microphone. Wow. Thank you. You two have been cooking up something interesting, and I am back here to tease it out of you both today. But because I am in charge again, I get to do things my way, which means Icebreakers are back on the cards. Yay. Kelly Molson: I'm so happy to be back here doing this. Right? Paul Marden: I've never done one of these. This is so. In all of the time. I know. Andy Povey: So I've got something over you now, Paul. Kelly Molson: I can't believe this. Even when we did the sessions that were us two, the episodes that were us two. Paul Marden: You didn't ask me icebreakers. I am dodged that bullet for two and a half years. Kelly Molson:  That's outrageous. Okay, well, then we'll start with you. I would like to know who's your favourite podcast host? Why is it me? Paul Marden: Wow. Kelly Molson:  No. Genuine question. Genuine question. Okay, so, I mean, obviously it is me. We could put that aside. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. So put a pin in that one. Kelly Molson: Put a pin in that. So listen there, I have seen in the last. Well, since we started Skip the Queue back in 2019. Goodness, July 2019, there's been lots of different sector podcasts that have kind of popped up, and they are brilliant. And I'm all for more and more niche podcasts. They are the best kind of podcast. But I want to know, aside from Skip the Queue, what is your second favourite sector podcast? Paul Marden: Oh, oh. Attraction Pros is the one for me. I do like listening to the guys at AttractionPros. Kelly Molson: They are good. They were around before Skip the Queue. So they're like. For me, they're the ones that we are looking up to in terms of the podcast. Paul Marden: We were. Kelly Molson: Oh, oh, Podcast Beef. Josh is gonna hear this. He's not going to be happy. Andy, same question to you. What other podcasts you listen to sector wise? Andy Povey: So, I mean, that's a really difficult question because. Well, it's not. The answer's none. I don't listen to sector podcasts very much. I become a politics junkie, or I've been a politics junkie for years. Kelly Molson: Okay.Andy Povey: So my podcasts are just full of politics podcast, which in the past two weeks I've stopped listening to. I've turned off completely because the world of politics is just such a mess.Kelly Molson: It's a car crash.Andy Povey: Within two minutes of having been published. Kelly Molson: What would be normally your go to, like, the regular one that you would listen to? Andy Povey: Me being a reluctant remainer. It's all the stuff that hangs over from that. So there's. Oh, God, what now? Quiet riot. The two. Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. I can't remember what that one's called right now. Paul Marden: The rest is politics. Kelly Molson: Rest is politics. Yeah, cool. Paul Marden: What about the one with Ed Balls and George Osborne? Andy Povey: I tried it and haven't really got into it. Paul Marden: Yeah. So I'm the opposite way around. So that's the one I like. And I don't like Rest is politics. And I turned out that actually George Osborne is a human being and I quite like the guy. I'd go for a drink with him. Who knew? Kelly Molson: This is no news. Paul Marden: Yeah. Kelly Molson: I wonder if he'd like to go for a drink with you. Paul Marden: Probably no.Andy Povey: I'm sure he'll be delighted to hear that when he listens to this. Paul Marden: When these politicians, when they give up their day job and they return to normal life and then you hear them on programmes, they're actually quite relatable and you think, why could you not capture that relatability when you were actually doing the job? Andy Povey: Well, it's actually a key part of the job, isn't it? It's the only thing you need to be good at as a politician. Kelly Molson: You would think, “Oh, could I could make a good politician then?” I'm just generally nice to people. Andy Povey: Absolutely. What would be your policies, Kelly? What would you do? What would you bring in? Kelly Molson: Oh, new policies. Oh, well, that's a very good question. I have one about mobile phones and people walking and looking at them at the same time, which I would ban because I generally just want to kick people. Kelly Molson: You know when you, like on the tube and you've got to get somewhere and you've just got people walking up the stairs in front of you, like, whilst looking at their phone, like, I want to swipe their legs away. So something around that they would be useful. It would make me happy anyway. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Kelly Molson: Make some other people happy, too. Who knows? Good. Okay. Glad that went there. Second question. This is a good one. It's coming up to. Well, I mean, it's already started, isn't it? Conference season has kicked in well and truly. You're at NFAN. That's really the start of it. I am going to be at the Association for Cultural Enterprise Conference in March. So looking forward to seeing everybody. I'm going to be at the awards do as well. I've been judging the awards. Paul Marden: Have you really? Kelly Molson: Yes, there was a lot in my category, I'm not going to lie. That took a lot longer than I was expecting it, but it was really fun. And the short list of finalists is out now if you haven't seen it. And it's an amazing list. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing who the winners are. But I would like to know what is the worst food you've ever been served at a conference? Because let's face it, can be a bit dodge, can't it? Andy Povey: So this sticks in my mind. It was an awful experience. We were at Port Sunlight up in. Actually not that far from Liverpool where the ACE conference is going to be in March. And it was pretty close, pretty soon after lockdown and it was almost like the caterers just looked in the freezer to see what they've got left over and no other conference had been there and then just put it all out at the same time. And it was all beige and it was just such mixture. Kelly Molson: Hang on a minute, hang on a minute. Let's not dis beige food because I'm not gonna let. I am a bit of a fan of beige food. So if you. If there was a conference that basically the lunch was made up of like kids party food, that would be the best conference I'd ever been to. Like sausage rames. Andy Povey: As long as you can have half a grapefruit covered in tin foil with cocktail sticks with cheese and pineapple stuff in it. Kelly Molson: No pineapple, I'm allergic, that would kill me. Paul Marden: But cheese tinned pineapple, it's got to be. Kelly Molson: Oh, tin pineapple is actually okay. Weirdly, that wouldn't kill me. So yeah, I would be down. I know, it's weird, I know. It's just fresh pineapple. Who knew?Kelly Molson: So little classed. Paul Marden:  Still loves the sausage roll and a scotch egg. Andy Povey: That's fine. Sausage rolls and scotch eggs, absolutely no problem. It's when you mix them with onion barges and samosas and Chinese spring rolls and. Paul Marden: Sounds like every Boxing Day lunch I've ever been to. Kelly Molson: I'm not going to lie, it actually sounds like my dream conference. Paul, over to you. Paul Marden: Conferences that serve you food that you cannot eat with one hand. Andy Povey: Yes. Paul Marden: Yeah. So pasta with a sloppy sauce. Why would you do that to me? I mean, I am not the best eater. I need a bib at most times, but if I'm out in public, I don't want garlic bread, I don't want saucy food. I want stuff I can shovel crack quickly and politely. I mean, as politely as you can shuffle food, but, you know.Kelly Molson: I'm with you on this. Like, what is wrong with the sandwich? Yeah, genuinely, I don't feel like we need to push the boundaries of conference food. I'm happy with stuff that you can pick up with one hand and eat comfortably. Kelly Molson: Stuff that, you know, you're confident that you can sit because let's face it, you get quite upright cos. And personal to people at conferences, don't you, when you're trying to, you know, it's not. Let's not be overloading them with garlic or anything. Kelly Molson: Delightful, you know? Yep, exactly. I don't know, I still, I keep going back to the whole party food. I think kids parties have got the right idea. Party rings, sausage rolls, scotch eggs. Paul Marden: And what sits that you can put in your mouth like a walrus. Kelly Molson: Oh, you know my party tricks. Brilliant, guys. Okay, listen, unpopular opinions are back for one time only. So, Andy, what you've got for me? Andy Povey: So mine's food related and it's probably more unpopular in my house than it is anywhere else, but Chinese food is massively overrated. Paul Marden: Behave. Kelly Molson: Yeah, I'm very on the fence about this one. Andy Povey: My kids love it, but the things they love are all the stuff that come with the sugar sauces. So lemon chicken, the sweet and sour chicken balls, all that kind of stuff. We good? So we mean, I don't need dessert and the main meal at the same time. Paul Marden: So we're talking English approximations of Chinese food from the takeaway. Yeah.Andy Povey: Nothing very sophisticated. Kelly Molson: I'm afraid I feel like that is all the stuff that I used to like, but now if you served me up a big plate of all of that stuff, it'd be like, oh, God, I'm gonna, I'm this. I'm gonna really struggle with this and I'm gonna be up in the night, aren't I? Paul Marden: I'm basically just a nine year old. Because it sounds like my idea of heaven. Sweet and sickly, deep fried. What's not to love? Kelly Molson: All right, well, let's see how our listeners feel about the whole Chinese debate. Paul, what about you? What you got? Paul Marden: The best radio station, is in fact Radio 4. Andy Povey: I agree with you 100%. Paul Marden: So that's not a controversial opinion. I thought that was going to be massively controversial. They've been podcasting for about 100 years. They podcasted long before there was really a podcast. It's all just spoken voice. So if I got trapped on a desert island, my luxury would be a Radio 4 on a radio to listen to because there's always a variety of stuff that you can listen to. Kelly Molson: Do you not listen to any of the other? Paul Marden: I do quite like. I quite like Greg James in the morning. Kelly Molson: I love Greg. I am a Radio 1 fan. Paul Marden: So have you listened to Greg on Radio 4? Kelly Molson: No, I know he does do that. Paul Marden: But, yeah, he's got a program on Radio 4 where he delves through the BBC archives. Rewinder, it's called, and it's brilliant. I love it. It's Greg James. Funny, combined with the novelty of listening to new things on Radio 4. Kelly Molson: Okay, all right, well, I'll give that a go. Yeah. I'm not fully sold on the Radio 4. I do like it. Paul Marden: But if I've got three or four hours in the car, up to a meeting and then another three or four hours to drive back afterwards, I'd rather listen to Radio 4 than Radio 1 because I won't get repeats of stuff. Kelly Molson: Yeah, I definitely am with you on that. And I would not. Yeah, I would not listen to Radio 1 for that length of time for that reason. Well, I'm. I did used to like. What was the pop quiz? Was that on Radio four? No, that was radio. Paul Marden: That was Radio 2. Kelly Molson: It was two, wasn't it? Sorry, I'm getting my radios mixed up. Paul Marden: Getting your old person radio mixed up. Kelly Molson: If I'm honest, I quite like a little bit of magic every now and again, but that really does age me. It's quite gentle. It's calming. When you've had a three and a half year old toddler screaming at you in the car for a while, it's quite nice to put something neutral on. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Kelly Molson: Thank you. Thank you for indulging, actually. Paul Marden: That was enjoyable. Kelly Molson: You're welcome. Andy Povey: That's why she likes doing them. Kelly Molson: All right, listen, let's get to the good stuff. I mean, everyone likes that bit. Let's face it, they've missed it, they want me back. But let's get to the actual route of why we're supposed to be here. Andy Povey: So I have another unpopular opinion that sort of leads in as a segue to where we were going. Kelly Molson: Oh, for God's sake, who's in control of this podcast? Me. Go on, then. Andy Povey: So this unpopular opinion is that if you're an attraction operator, you don't want a ticketing system. Kelly Molson: Excellent segue. Andy Povey: We were just talking about conferences. There are sessions in conferences and one of my favourite conferences I go to is the Ticketing Professionals Conference. But there are sections in each of these conferences on how to find a ticketing system, how to choose your ticketing system supplier, how to get a better relationship with your ticketing system. And in my opinion, an attraction operator doesn't want one. They want happy guests who are giving them lots of money to come and have great experiences. They don't care how it happens. Kelly Molson: It's true. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, definitely. But are you dissing ticketing professionals and saying basically the sessions you're putting on a rubbish no one gives them? Andy Povey: No, no, no. There's a certain section of society that really enjoys it. So I describe this as. When I go to B and Q to look for a drill, I'm one of the geeks that actually wants to understand how the drill works and how fast it is and all that kind of stuff. But the majority of people going to buy a drill don't want a drill. They want a hole. Kelly Molson: Want a hole. Andy Povey: Yeah. So he's an attraction operator. You don't want a ticketing system. You want happy customers who are giving you lots of money and having great experiences. Kelly Molson: Okay, right. So that was a great segue into where I was going. Look, you two, you two have been thick as thieves for a good few months, if not longer, and there's been something cooking up between the two of you. Kelly Molson: I have had a little bit of privy to understand what's been going on, but this is the first time that you've actually got to the point of talking about it openly and publicly, isn't it? And that why you've got me back on, basically, is to grill you on what you're doing. So spill up, fess up. What have you been doing in the background, the two of you? Paul Marden: Well, this all came about after a lunch that Andy and I had in August of last year, where were putting the world to rights and figuring out what do attractions need to do with their ticketing, what do they need to do with their websites, and what could we do to try to improve things? And Andy had thought lots about this stuff and he prepared me. It's quite the lunch. He prepared me a PowerPoint presentation for lunch. Kelly Molson: Wow. Like when you want your mum and dad to get you a dog. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Can we make this happen? Paul Marden: Yeah, it was. It was his wish list. Clearly, this PowerPoint has been worked on for many years because there was lots of wishes, lots of ideas, and being the developer at heart that I am, I'm like, how hard can that be? It's only a website. Surely we can do this. Surely we can do it. We've done bits of it before and we started to think about where we could go with stuff that had long predates me. Yeah. There are elements of Rubber Cheese that you and Wag were working on for years, probably prior to the merger with Carbon Six. But it's been a really challenging market. Paul Marden: And getting out there and meeting people and talking about some of these elements of E commerce and ticketing, sales and personalisation and things like that we're going to talk about in a minute are quite hard to sell into people when it's a challenging market. And it seemed like, well, that was our first date and we thought that it could be a marriage made in heaven for the two of us, because Andy's got a lot of understanding of the sector and the needs and the challenges and who would benefit from this sort of technology. And I'm in the lucky position after having merged Carbon Six and Rubber Cheese, of having some of this technology that we could then develop. So it was a seed that grew from there, really, wasn't it, Andy? Andy Povey: Yeah. And he's carried on growing. I mean, the intent behind it all was that everything is just so disjointed at the moment. So if you're a big theme park with accommodation and a decent retail and decent catering, food and beverage offering, you're looking at seven or eight different systems that you need to run your business and someone needs to plug all of those together to get a good guest experience. And unless you're the size of Merlin or Disney or Universal, with lots and lots of resource to apply to plugging these systems together, it just doesn't happen. Which is why we're still not delivering the Best in class Omni Channel experience to people who are coming out for a day out. Kelly Molson: I think this is a really exciting conversation. And if I think back to some of the conversations that we were having prior to me leaving Rubber Cheese, Paul,it's exactly the challenge that they were having. You know, thinking back to a particular pitch where there's a historic house, there was a plague playground, there was a golf course, there was a spa, there was a hotel, there was something else. And all of these things had so many different systems that were running them and there wasn't really a way to facilitate bringing them all together. And that's the challenge because that's exactly what they need. But they weren't of the scale to be able to invest in the infrastructure to be able to do that. But it is exactly what they needed. Kelly Molson: So is this thing that you've built, or in the process of building and developing, going to solve that problem for people? Andy Povey: That's the objective. Paul Marden: That was a very guarded statement, wasn't it? That was a politician's answer. I think the answer that were just groping for then was yes. Kelly Molson: Yes, it is.Andy Povey: Yes. Kelly Molson: It's exactly the answer that I wanted. Andy Povey: We're forming a company that we're calling Crowd Convert and we'll put a link to the URL and website and all that kind of stuff in the show notes. And the objective behind CrowdConvert is that we will make this all work together. It's a journey. We don't have it today. It doesn't exist. I worked for Merlin Entertainment for the two source group for 18 years now. We had lots of resource in comparison to smaller attractions, but we still didn't make it happen. So it doesn't exist out there at the moment and we're going to build it. Kelly Molson: Okay, so we've got Andy, we've got an industry veteran. Hope you don't mind me. Andy Povey: Not at all. Kelly Molson: Kind of makes you feel, it makes you feel ancient, but you're not. But, you know, you've got all of this historic understanding and experience within the sector. Paul, yours is building, obviously we've built that over the years with Rubber Cheese. But you're, you know, you're the digital specialist that can come in and support facilitating building these and you've both come together under the Crowd Convert name. So this is the new company that the two of you have formed. I love the name. Andy Povey: Thank you. Kelly Molson: So I want to understand, like how then there's a story there. What I want to get a little bit of a deeper understanding is what is the offer? So, you know, what is the thing that you are actually building and does that thing have a name at the moment? What does it look like? So firstly, where did the name come from? Crowd Convert. Paul Marden: Weeks and weeks of effort. I hate choosing names for things, so hard. You come up with a brilliant idea and then you say it to your wife, “Oh my God, you can't call it that”. Or you come up with a name and then somebody's bought the domain name and by the end of It I was just like, please, somebody just put me out of my misery. I don't care what we choose. Andy Povey: It was actually the most torturous thing about getting this all together. There were a few others that came in very close second. But choosing the name and getting that together was really quite painful. Paul Marden: But it was the right process because we were so happy with the result at the end of it. Andy Povey: Absolutely. But it seems or it felt to me like the choosing the name, when we actually got to that part of the process took two or three minutes. And if we'd have thought of that name right at the start, then would we have rejected it or would we have carried on? Could we have saved two minutes? Kelly Molson: So you worked through the process, which means the name has more meaning. Paul Marden: Yeah. Kelly Molson: So what is the meaning behind it? What's the ethos behind between Crowd Convert? Like what? Andy Povey: So we've reverse engineered this one a little bit. And if you're in the world of attractions, you have a crowd. You hopefully you have a crowd. And as a visitor to an attraction, you want to be part of a crowd. You don't want to be the last person in the pub or the only person in theatre, because that just feels weird. But as an attraction operator, I want to have a relationship with you. I want to know who you are, I want to know what you want. I want to give you a great experience. I want to give you a membership. If I'm a charitable organisation, I want to convert you to a donor. If I'm not, then I want to turn you into an advocate at a superfan. Andy Povey: So Crowd Convert is giving you the tools to convert those crowds into individuals that you can create that know, like and trust relationship with. Kelly Molson: That's nice. So you talk a lot on the website about kind of humanising that process. And I think it is. It's taking it back to that kind of one on one that talking to people as individuals rather than talking to them as a mass. Andy Povey: Absolutely. That goes back to the. You don't want a ticketing system. Don't show me what goes in the sausage. Give me a great experience. Paul Marden: Mixing your metaphors there. Andy Povey: I know. Kelly Molson: You lost me at sausage. So, sorry. So I want to go back a little bit, Paul, to what you. Something that you said earlier about that this predates you and your part that you play in Rubber Cheese and your ownership of Rubber Cheese. So I'm going to make an assumption here that something that you're using is something that we already kind of started, but quite a long time ago. So we had almost like a product at Rubber Cheese that was in the ticketing space. And if I'm honest, as a small agency, you only have so much resource to work on things that are for you and ultimately the things that were for us and for you, like the podcast and the survey and the report, always took priority. Kelly Molson: And that was an awful lot of work for an agency that was, you know, before we merged, there were six or seven of us. You know, we weren't huge. We didn't have a whole lot of capacity and resources to give up to these things. But we did start to develop a product that kind of. We knew that it could be good, but it almost. We just, we had to shelve it and we just said, you know, one day we might get investment or one day we might be big enough that we could actually kind of focus on that. It feels like that's the product that you are now. Paul Marden: That is definitely the great grandparent of the idea that we've got now. Kelly Molson: I like that. Paul Marden: So there's, I guess there's two parts to some of the stuff that you had developed previously. Some of it was in the ticketing space. So for very small attractions, you developed a system that had an inventory of tickets that you could buy online and it would issue the ticket, create a barcode, send it to them. But there was also a piece that you did that integrated with existing ticketing systems. And that's the area where I think my mind was going is around building a best in class e commerce experience. Because people sat on the sofa on a Thursday night trying to decide what they're going to do at the weekend, want to be able to find an attraction, get their tickets, and then carry on watching the telly. They want quick and easy experience. We can build that experience. Paul Marden: We know from the survey that it's nine steps on average to be able to complete an attractions checkout, plus or minus a couple of steps. So there's ones that are even worse. And that checkout experience is torturous in many cases. They want to know when you're coming, what time you're coming, what type of ticket you want to buy. They want to know who's coming, the names, possibly the email addresses of all of your guests that you're bringing with you. They'll want to know what your home address is, what your billing address is. They'll then want to sell you a guidebook. They might upsell or cross sell some other products along the way. And that's how you end up with 12 steps in a process that just feels torturous. Paul Marden: I had one last year where they even made me enter a password for a site I was never going to return to and told me off twice for getting the password wrong. I mean, the process that many attractions go through to make you buy, it's a wonder anybody ever perseveres. What's stopping us from achieving an Amazon like one or two click experience? How can we go from that really extreme version down to something really simple and quick? And we've proven that it is possible to do that. It's possible to get down to a couple of clicks and we do that. I know you look surprised. Kelly Molson: Yeah, well, yes, I, well, I am surprised, but also quite excited by that because that is one of the issues that has come up year after year in the visitor attraction, you know, website report is the amount of steps and the aggravation it causes people, but also the cost that it could save attractions. Paul Marden: Yep. Kelly Molson: I mean you said nine steps. I thought were, I thought were aboutbbetween seven and nine steps is about the average. Kelly Molson: Right. So we know that can cost attractions a huge amount in lost revenue. You know, I'm just going back to the 2022 report, but it was something like 250k for one of our best performing attractions. But it's also tied to, you know, that excessive amounts of CO2 emissions, which I know you focused on really heavily for the current report. So you're saying that the product that you're building could essentially take those average steps down to two. Andy Povey: It's not good. It does. Kelly Molson: WowPaul Marden: It does. Yeah. So the way that we do that is a number of different core principles. Yeah. So we are not going to ask you for anything we do not need in order to affect the transaction. We are only going to ask you to share the data we absolutely need to complete the transaction. We are going to start to make some assumptions about you through personalisation technology. We will know roughly where you are and how far you are away from the transaction. If you're within an hour's distance of the place, chances are if you're looking on Thursday night, probably looking for this weekend. If you're on a different continent, you might be planning for a long term holiday. Paul Marden: If we know that you're quite local, let's assume the date that you want to travel based on our understanding of average behaviour of people at that particular attraction and then let people change it if it's not right. Yeah. Another thing Andy talks about a lot is not overselling. So a lot of ticketing systems are trying to upsell, cross sell and increase the average order value, but by cannibalising the conversion rate. And you talk, Andy, don't you, about the maitre d at the restaurant? Andy Povey: Yeah. So it's. It's like comparing a McDonald's experience to go to a fine dining place. So if I'm in the McDonald's world, I have to choose what drink I want, what dessert I'm going to have, what main course I'm going to have, all at the same point. And it's a really artificial transaction. It's almost like if you were walking into a fine dining restaurant with the maitre d at the front going, “Welcome, Andy, come in. Lovely to see you. Can you tell me what you'd like for your starter for your main course? For dessert? Will you like coffee after dessert? Would you like a liqueur after the coffee?” We still haven't got to the table and that's where we are with attractions, upsells. Andy Povey: Because we believe mistakenly, in my opinion, that's the only opportunity that we've got to sell guidebook or the teddy bear or whatever to the guest who's coming. We should stop all of that because it's stopping the transaction, it's interrupting the transaction, adding extra steps and causing people to leave. Kelly Molson: It's a really good point. I mean, I actually have in the past have advocated for adding in upsells in that journey. And because I have often been like, well, yeah, actually it's a really good opportunity for people to sell a little bit more, you know, whether it's a guidebook, whether it's an experience, whatever that might be. So what would you say to people who they still want to do that? Is that, are we then talking about, you know, there's options for you to do that or actually that becomes part of the pre visit, pre boarding. So it funnels down into like emails, comms and stuff. Andy Povey: It's both options, really. For an upsell to work really well, it needs to be at the time where it's most appropriate. So back to the restaurant analogy, offering me a coffee at the point I walk in the door is completely inappropriate. Andy Povey: Offering me a coffee after I've had a great meal and I'm feeling quite full and quite happy with myself is entirely the appropriate time to offer me the coffee. So let's make the offers on the upsells appropriate to the time and to the guest. So if you're an attraction that charges for car parking, for example, it might be that 9:00 in the morning on the day of visit when the family are just getting in the car to travel to the venue is the most appropriate time to offer the car parking upsell. Not at the point where I'm buying the ticket. It might be if you've got a VIP upgrade experience. So if you're a water park there's a cabana you can have. If you're a theme park it's a fast track experience. Andy Povey: If you're a museum then there's a guided Tour that upsell VIP type experience you offer 48 hours before the day of visit. Kelly Molson: Sure. Andy Povey: Memberships are another great thing. So there's still the majority of first time membership purchases are made as the consumer is leaving the attraction. Had a great day out. Get today's entry feedback against your membership and that's still go and join this queue with kids who are overtired and a little bit disappointed because they're leaving and I'm stressed because I've got a. I'm tired as well and I've got a long drive home and then I've got to work out what we're going to do for dinner when we get in. There's all these negatives. Don't try and sell me a membership then. Sell me the membership for the next seven days and hit me up with lots of different messages through appropriate channels. Andy Povey: So it might be that a WhatsApp message on the way home offering me a really simple way of upgrading to a membership is the most appropriate that time. But it might be that 9 o'clock on Monday morning when we can assume that a lot of people are going to be sitting behind a desk. Then it's the most appropriate to send me an email and then hit me up again Thursday when I'm thinking about what I'm going to be doing next this weekend coming remind me of the great experience I had and give me an opportunity then. So just be, make it much more human. Kelly Molson: It makes sense. And there's something that you. I've been able to have a sneak peek of the Crowd Convert website. So we'll talk a little bit later about where people can find out a little bit more about you. But I've been able to have a little look at that and there's something that you talk about which is about rehumanising commerce and there's a really lovely story on there that you talk about, which is the Shopkeeper's Wisdom. And I read that, I was like, this is really nice because I've always. The local shop is or did sit at the epicentre of the community at one point. And I have got really vivid memories. So we lived on a little estate near my school in Essex and across the road from us was the corner shop. Kelly Molson: And it was where everything happened, you know, like it was the post office, it was where you got your papers, where you got your sweets. At one point is where you got your videos, not your DVDs because they did not exist. You know, you got your VHS cassettes and you could go and rent, you know, everything kind of happened there. And they knew you, they knew your family, they knew your mum and dad, they knew your names, you know, and it was a really, it was just quite a wholesome experience. And you talk about that, the Shopkeeper's Wisdom. So you say, you know, the local shopkeeper knew everything that it was to know about their customers. And that is kind of taking it back to that level. That's, that's what this feels like. Andy Povey: And that's completely where we're trying to get to. We don't want to get to the level of creepiness where people are getting all upset about what were. Andy Povey: And we don't want to be intrusive. But we have a great opportunity in the attraction space. Our customers want to engage with us. They're going because they enjoy what we do. They're going to see us because they want to experience the thing that we're doing. It's not like we're selling insurance or car tires that you just got to have and it's really tedious. People want to engage, so let's make it easy for them to do that. Kelly Molson: Okay. So we're doing that by making it quicker for them and less friction to buy a ticket in the first place. Communicating with them at the appropriate times and in the ways that they want to be communicated to and offering them. Because we don't want to stop offering people extra things. We're doing it in the way and at the time that's appropriate for that audience. Paul Marden: We're absolutely convinced that moving some of these upsells and cross sell opportunities to later in your relationship will increase the likelihood of you closing the deal. Don't cannibalise the conversion rate at the initial conversation. You haven't built a trust relationship with someone, so don't keep throwing options at them. It's just too much. I'm a simple boy. If I go to a restaurant, I want a really simple menu, three or four things, and I'll make a choice. Yeah. If you give me too many options, I'll just sit there and I won't be able to decide. And I think that's what we do when we present people with nine steps and we want to know the email address of everybody, we want to know the postcode of where they live because we want to be able to market to them and that's important. Paul Marden: But there are other better ways of being able to identify where somebody is other than using their postcode and making them type something in. They don't need that hassle. Andy Povey: So this is all about the e commerce journey. Stepping back a little bit closer to what Rubber Cheese do. And the DNA behind Rubber Cheese is making attractions websites work really well. And it's back to the point about things being disconnected and attraction operators having to plug them together. How many websites are there or how many attraction e commerce journeys are there where you click on the button to buy a ticket and you're taken to a different page and that different page can have a completely different look and feel? Kelly Molson: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a massive bug. It's been a bugbear of mine for years. Andy Povey: But how many websites do you have where I can be sitting there looking at the tulip experiences coming up? We heard lots of that kind of stuff at the end fan conference. I'm on the tulips page. But then you take me to a page where I've got to pick the date that I want to visit. I've already told you, I'm on the tulip page. I want to come and see tulips. I'm not interested in Father Christmas. Kelly Molson: I'm just all about the tulips. Andy Povey: So don't make me choose twice. Make it work together. Kelly Molson: Okay, So I want to play devil's advocate here because I'm sitting here listening to this going, this sounds great. I'm going back to what Andy said about, you know, attractions, they don't really want a ticketing system. They just. They don't really care about the system. They just want it to work. Right, I get that. But there's going to be a lot of people that are listening to this podcast going, “bloody ticketing system”. There's a lot, right? Let's face it. Paul Marden: It's a busy space. Kelly Molson: You are. It is a busy space. And if you are an attraction sitting here going,”Oh my God, another one.” We know that another one. You know that we know what we've got isn't working for us. We've, we've got workarounds, we're doing what we can with what we already have. But you know, ultimately we can't grow with what we have and we know we need to change it. This is a big task, right? You know, your ticketing system is often embedded so deeply into your organisation that the process of selecting a new one and then implementing that change is so vast and overwhelming that one people declare we just won't bother. That's why I've got these workarounds in place or two, you know, overwhelmed with choice. And yes, I know there's specialists out there. Kelly Molson: You know, we work with a couple that will help you go through that process and select the right partners for you. But if someone like me is sitting here going, “Okay, why do I come to Crowd Convert?” Like, why is this, what is it the thing that your product is going to be stand out for that is going to sit above or is going to solve the problems I've got above all of the other options that I've got out there? Andy Povey: So this is back to the comment earlier about this being a concept, an ethos of philosophy. Our business will grow through either building solutions, acquiring other solutions that have already been built, or selecting partners to integrate with. And we will do the whole integration. So it doesn't matter what ticketing system you're using that you have today, if you want the better digital experience for your guests, we will integrate to your current ticketing system. Kelly Molson: Okay, so you're taking the pain of having to change something that's deeply embedded in your organisation and almost putting something, a layer on top of that will actually facilitate this better customer interaction, purchasing process without the need for all of the stressful change. Paul Marden: Do away with the whole monolithic solution that solves the operation of the entire business and start to turn it into LEGO bricks. I want a LEGO brick from a website. I want a LEGO brick for my ticketing. I want my LEGO brick for my e commerce experience. I want my LEGO brick for my online shop. We'll either build or acquire those LEGO bricks or partner with the best of breed LEGO bricks that exist. Other building blocks are available and we will help to plug those together and make them work effectively. But you can imagine, you know, I always talk about, we talked a lot about ticketing today, but I, whenever I talk to somebody about ticketing, changing your ticketing system is like open heart surgery on the business. Paul Marden: Yeah, it's something you don't necessarily do casually, although I have met people who have changed it casually. But it's often so difficult because it's so deeply ingrained across the entire operation. But if you start to. It's a horrible, boring technical term. If you start to build this composable set of systems that can plug together, then it becomes easier. If you plug in an e commerce online ticketing solution and it plugs into your current ticketing system, well then later on when you change that ticketing system, you won't necessarily have to change the online experience in order to be able to do that. Yeah, we'll be able to plug into the new one that you choose. It makes it easier for you to chop and change things and become less dependent on one single monolithic provider. Kelly Molson: Yeah, because that's the thing. Right. You know, I think the past dream has been one system that does everything and suddenly that one system goes down and you're absolutely screwed. Andy Povey: That's not the way the world works anymore. And the human world. I use analogy of a TV. I got a new TV a few weeks ago out of the box and turned it on and I was presented on screen with an option to get the remote control for my new TV to operate other devices in my house. And my kids could have set it up. Kelly Molson: Danger.Andy Povey: Absolutely. Why is integration so difficult? And that's the way the world is going. If you look at credit card processing two, three years ago, to be able to accept a payment by credit card, you had to sign into a five year agreement with a credit card process provider. I was in my local WIX yesterday and I could have bought credit card terminal off the shelf. Andy Povey: They were sitting on the shelf next to the suites at the checkout. For 50 quid I could have taken it home, unboxed it and I would be processing credit card transactions there and then. I'm not signing into a three year agreement. If I don't like it, I can take it back and get one in pink because I prefer pink to white. It's got to be much easier. The world is becoming much easier. The technology world is becoming much easier to make these things work together. So you won't need clever people like Paul to make it all work together. Crowd convert. Paul Marden: I'll be on the golf course, won't I? Kelly Molson: Do you play golf? Paul Marden: No. Never played golf in my life. Crazy golf. Kelly Molson: I like the analogy. I like the Lego brick analogy. I like this whole kind of the concept that it's, you know, like plug and play but you know, you haven't got. You're using the base of what you already have, but you can pop these things as part of it. That feels really understandable for people to get their head around the concept of what you're doing. Paul Marden: But still totally integrated. What we don't want is the solution that is that somebody, an attraction that we've been to recently, where to get in, you have to go through different turnstiles depending on whether you've got a day ticket or a membership ticket because the two different sets of systems can't talk to the same turnstile at the same time. And so then you need more double the staff to be able to man the turnstiles. Kelly Molson: And confusion, and it ruins that whole first impact of arrival because you don't know yet. Andy Povey: But we're exposing our dirty laundry to the consumer. Why? They don't care. Kelly Molson: Yeah, yeah. Andy Povey: It doesn't matter to them what ticketing system you've got. Paul Marden: That is the vision. And the vision is becoming reality as well. Kelly Molson: Okay, well, let's talk about that. So there is a website that I've had privy to and the product is in its, should we say it's in its infancy at the moment and it's being developed. Paul Marden: Yes. Kelly Molson: So this is the time to that you'll be having, I guess you'll be having conversations with people about what that product, you're almost building it for the people. Right. You're having conversations with them about this is what we see happening. This is how we see what we do. What are your needs? Paul Marden: Yeah. Kelly Molson: Okay, cool. So can people get involved with that process? Paul Marden: Exciting. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Paul Marden: Anyone can talk to Andy. He'll talk to anybody. Kelly Molson: It's true, he will. Paul Marden: I just get locked in a cupboard and told to design things. Andy Povey: Make it work, plug it together. Kelly Molson: Okay, so I've got a few questions about what does this mean for Rubber Cheese? What does this mean for Rubber Cheese? What does this mean for Skip the Queue. What does this mean for the report initiatives that we do? I guess that's all still happening. Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely no changes to Rubber Cheese at all. This is part of a wider, bigger family that Rubber Cheese is part of. And looking at different parts of the attraction operating experience. Paul Marden: Yeah. So Rubber Cheese is going to carry on almost single minded focus on websites that enable people to get to the buy button. Kelly Molson: I like that. Paul Marden: Getting them from being interested in the attraction to hitting that buy now button or get your ticket button. Yeah. That's our specialty and that will remain our specialty. The job of Crowd Convert then is to convert them. Kelly Molson: Pick up from that point. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Kelly Molson: That's lovely, isn't it? Andy Povey: And that's where the build, acquire and partner comes in. So there will be other organisations, other tools that we partner with and plug together. And that's the bit that Crowd Convert does. It's almost the umbrella, the glue that glues all of these things together. Kelly Molson: Okay, so what more do our listeners need to understand about Crowd Convert and how can they get involved? How can they be part of this conversation to define what this product actually looks like and does for them? Andy Povey: So we're launching the website. You can find Paul and me on LinkedIn. We've got a bunch of events and exhibition shows that we're going to be at over the next few months where we're actively going to be asking people to get involved. If you are interested, then pick up the phone and drop us an email. We'll have a chat. Paul Marden: Contact@crowdconvert.co.uk.Kelly Molson: I was going to say we need the domain name in there. Crowdconvert.co.uk is the place to go. Go and have a look, find out, have a little bit of a read through about the site. It's designed in a really nice way. I think that what I really liked as I was reading it through was kind of this real focus on building something for the greater good. It's not just another ticketing platform. It's not just about. It really is about working with the attractions to build something that is just, it just works. And it works for them in the way they need it to and it works for the visitors in the way they need it to. Andy Povey: And that's it completely. It's about putting the guest at the centre of everything we're doing. And looking at this from the consumer's perspective, does it make sense or am I going to have to work out where I bought my tickets? So I know whether I go through the right hand turnstiles or the left hand turnstiles, that's just rubbish. Kelly Molson: Yeah, okay, great. So website is launching.Paul Marden:  It is launched. It's up and running. Kelly Molson: Oh, it's out. It's out there all right. It's out there in the world already. So that's where you go, listeners, if you want to find out more about what's happening. And I would really recommend booking a call with Andy, booking a call with Paul, talking through, you know, if anything that we've talked about today has made you feel quite excited about what the prospect of this product could potentially be. Book a call with them. I mean, listen, if you're seeing Andy at a conference, you just need to up. And you'll find him. Or maybe it's just me.Paul Marden: Me, not so much. Kelly Molson: Oh, it's just me. Okay, listen, I always finish off my podcasts with a book recommendation for our listeners, so I'd like to ask you both if you've prepared a book today. Andy, what do you have for us? Andy Povey: So I pondered this for quite a while because I was expecting it and I think it's the third or fourth you've asked me for. So I'm actually not going to recommend a book at all. I told you that I've given up on podcasts earlier on and I found Audible. So at the moment the thing that's occupying all of my attention is that, The Day of the Triffids on Audible which is fantastic. Fantastic escapism from everything that's going off in the world at the moment. Paul Marden: Interesting. Kelly Molson: That's nice actually. That's really good. But audiobooks are really good for long drives that were talking about earlier. They're quite good. I got into. Sorry, Paul, just. I'll come to you in a minute. Paul Marden: It's all about you. Kelly Molson: It's all about me today. I really got into. Kelly Molson: Just before the pandemic and during it there was a BBC podcast called the Lovecraft. Oh gosh, what is it called? The Lovecraft's Tales. I'm gonna have to have to check this on my.Paul Marden: Sorry, listeners. Well, she's out of practice on this. Kelly Molson: So I am out of practice. Apologies, but you know me. The Lovecraft investigations. Don't know if anyone would listen to it. It's brilliant. It's based on the love. It's loosely based on on Lovecraft books but it was quite like it's about supernatural. But what I really enjoyed about it was linked to like local places that I kind of knew like Retend and Forest and there was a lot of like, kind of like Norfolk, Suffolk and Dunwich and stuff. And that was. They're really good for like long drives as well because you can really get into something on like a two or three hour journey. So I totally with you on the triffids thing. So I did bring it back to Andy in the end. Andy Povey: Thank you, Kelly. Kelly Molson: Paul, what have you prepared? Paul Marden: I am an absolute Fan of classic British crime novels. Love an Agatha Christie. Love, a  mystery of some sort. But I'm not going to recommend an Agatha Christie one. I'm going to recommend one that I've got on Audible as well, that I found originally from Audible. Paul Marden: And it is one of the British Library classic British crime series, where they're republishing stuff from, like, you know, the 20s and 30s, and it's called the Wintringham Mystery Anthony Barclay. It's a classic whodunit in a kind of locker room mystery in a massive stately home. It's just like a Poirot novel, but it's not Poirot. It's a different one. But I love it. It's a brilliant book. Kelly Molson: When you find stuff like that, it's really comforting, isn't it? It's like a little a warm hug and a cup of tea. Andy Povey: Absolutely. Kelly Molson: Lovely. Well, do our listeners still get to win copies of those books even though they're audiobooks? Paul Marden: Yeah, but they don't do it on X anymore because, you know, who wants to be posting on X? So if listeners. If you'd like a copy of Andy's. Well, no, you can't have Andy Lovecraft books but it was quite like it's about supernatural. On Audible or mine. On Audible or on Paperback, then head over to Bluesky and repost the shownotes where Wenalyn has announced the podcast and the first person that does that will get a copy of the book. Kelly Molson: Lovely. Well, it has been an absolute treat to be back on the podcast today. Thank you. Paul Marden: You're not coming back over again? It's still mine. It's mine there. Kelly Molson: Please let me come back. Please. Anything that we've talked about today will, as ever, be in the show notes. So you'll find links to the Crowd Convert website, you'll find links to Paul and Andy's LinkedIn profiles and email addresses, whatever. However, best to get in touch with them. But I highly recommend having a chat with them. Can I just say, because it is all about me. I've been very sad to not be part of the podcast moving forward. But I am also been really thrilled that you have taken completely up to the ownership of it. So I just. While I'm on here, and it is about me, I just wanted to congratulate you for taking over and making it your own, because you really needed to do that. And it's brilliant to see. Kelly Molson: And I've loved listening to the episodes. I think the bravery in doing some of the live ones. Paul Marden: Stupidity. Kelly Molson: Well, maybe a tad. Paul Marden: We won't talk about what happened at NFAN last week. Please let's not talk about that. Andy Povey: What happens in Blackpool stays in Blackpool. Kelly Molson: Next time I come on the podcast, I'm going to make you spill that as a guilty confession. Paul Marden: But you know what? I absolutely loved it. I came back afterwards and I listened to that episode and it's the first one where I've been. I really thoroughly enjoyed listening to the conversation. I'm finding my feelings only taken me a couple of years. Kelly Molson: Well, it only took me a couple of years as well. But you're there now and it's brilliant. So, like one, well done. I genuinely think that you're doing an excellent job and I'm very glad that I got to hand the baton over to you and you're doing it differently. Paul Marden: You can just come back as a guest star. Andy Povey: It was more of a temporary end, wasn't it, than a handover. Paul Marden: It's mine. It's mine. Kelly Molson: I think it was a, "Here you go, dumped on your lap." Paul Marden: Thank you for coming back and talking to us. It's been marvellous. Kelly Molson: Thank you for having me back. I've loved every minute. Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.  The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 5th March 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: https://www.birminghammuseums.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zakmensah/Zak Mensah is the co-CEO of Birmingham Museums Trust. He is passionate about helping their service make an impact by focusing on the needs of over 1 million visitors. He is encouraging the organization to adopt a "digital by default" approach. Zak's mission is to ensure that their people, skills, and services remain adaptable to the rapidly changing landscape of the cultural sector. He is exploring new ways of doing things, including innovative business models, partnerships, and arts-related KPIs, while sharing as much as possible publicly.With a background in staff development and digital, Zak has been involved with the web since the late 90s and has seen its influence grow in all aspects of life. Prior to joining the arts sector in 2013, he helped small businesses, charities, Jisc, universities, and the Heritage Lottery Fund "do" digital well.Zak also runs his own consultancy to promote positive change and keep his skills sharp. His goal is to make a ruckus. https://www.vam.ac.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyakino-wittering/Amy Akino-Wittering is Head of Operations and Commercial at Young V&A, which opened July 2023 and recently won Art Fund Museum of the Year and Kids in Museums, Family Friendly Museum of the Year awardsResponsible for the general management of Young V&A she directly manages the visitor experience and teams, catering contract, volunteering and back of house operations, collaborating closely with central V&A colleagues to deliver operations and income for Young V&A. Previously Amy worked at V&A South Kensington as Senior Visitor Experience Manager-Sales and was on the opening project team leading on visitor experience and retail at Pitzhanger Manor & Gallery.She started her career at Imperial War Museums working across sites from assistant to management roles in Retail and Admissions and systems management.  https://www.hampshireculture.org.uk/​​https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-sapwell-b3b2a281/Paul Sapwell has been Chief Executive at independent arts and culture charity Hampshire Cultural Trust since 2018, having joined the trust in 2016 as Chief Operating Officer following an early career primarily in hospitality and leisure. Paul is a passionate believer in the transformative power that cultural experiences can have on the wellbeing of individuals and communities, and a prominent advocate for the role of commercial growth, underpinned by a flexible, entrepreneurial team culture, in sustaining museum and arts organisations. Transcription: Paul Marden: The museums and culture sector are facing unprecedented headwinds. Static or reducing funding from local government, fewer grants from trusts and foundations, all while dealing with increased people costs. The continued headwinds from cost of living crisis. But this sector continues to deliver more with less and support the cultural life of our country. Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden and in today's episode recorded the Science Museum at the Association of Cultural Enterprises View from the Top event. I'm joined by Amy Akino-Wittering, Head of Operations and Commercial at Young V&A. Zak Mensah, Co CEO of Birmingham Museums Trust, and Paul Sapwell, CEO of Hampshire Cultural Trust. Paul Marden: And we're going to talk about how the cultural sector can innovate in order to thrive. Anyone that's listened to the podcast before will know. And this is the nervous bit. Paul Marden: We always start with an icebreaker question which my lovely guests victims have not been prepared for. So, Zak, I'm afraid you go first, my friends. So if you were a cartoon character, which cartoon character would you be? Zak Mensah: That's easy. I think I would be the thing that gets chased by the. Is it the wild Cody who runs around all his home? But I'd be the. What's the little, the stupid Roadrunner. Yeah, so I would be Roadrunner because you constantly are literally running 100 miles an hour and then a giant piano lands on you at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon, but you respawn on the Monday and you start all over again. Pretty much feels like me. Paul Marden: I love that. I love that. Amy, you're next. Let's think of all of the inventions over the last hundred years that were offered. Flying cars, those sorts of things. What is the one thing were promised that you really miss and think we really need in our lives? Amy Akino-Wittering: I think a Time Turner, which is basically from Harry Potter. Basically you can just go and do things like six. They do six days all at once. Paul Marden: You can be Hermione if you've got a Time Turner. Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, great. Paul Marden: Excellent. I love that, Amy. Thank you. Paul. Paul Sapwell: You said these were going to be under no pressure. I wouldn't have liked. I wouldn't have liked either of those. Paul Marden: Oh, well, you're not going to like this one then. I'm sorry, mate, I'm, I, I live in Hampshire. Paul runs Hampshire Cultural Trust. Paul. Paul Sapwell:  Oh, even better. Paul Marden: Saints or Pompey? Paul Sapwell:  Oh, blimey. Okay, well that's, I'm an Arsenal fan. Paul Marden: So there we go. Paul Sapwell: I couldn't possibly answer Saints or Pompey? I mean, we border both. So I would just be in so much trouble if I pick one or the other. So I can. I've got to get out. Paul Marden: Are you dodging that one? Paul Sapwell: Yeah. I thought you might watch Arsenal regularly. Paul Marden: I thought you might. So we are going to start with a question from somebody from the audience, a young man named Gordon. Apparently he might be a millennial. And he says, After 15 years of turmoil, financial crash, austerity, Brexit, Covid, we face continuing cost of living issues, rising national insurance and a Trump presidency. Are we doomed in 2025? Or to put it slightly better, what are the biggest risks for your organisation and the wider sector, and what are you each doing to thrive in the year ahead? And I'm going to start with you, Paul. Paul Sapwell: That's an easy question, isn't it? Paul Marden: You can thank young Gordon. Paul Sapwell: Brilliant Gordon, Yeah. I mean, I think 2025 is going to be an incredibly tricky year, but to sort of look further than that. I'm certainly an optimist, but I think we're in a time of transition, particularly in terms of our sector, in the cultural sector, in terms of what's going to fund us and what's going to sustain us going forward. You know, I think the years of the level. I think a lot of the speakers have touched on it, but the years of the level of public sector funding is, whatever happens with this government and next is going to be going down and we just have to face that. I run an organisation which we started out in 2019. We're about 85% publicly funded. Now we're 34% publicly funded with the same turnover, I hasten to add. Paul Sapwell: And so we've made a good go of it, but I think the headwinds this year are really difficult. That said, I think that we have to be confident investing for the longer term and particularly, obviously, in this conference in areas of commercial growth. I think that, okay, the growth projections have been downgraded. I am confident that we will, as the decade continues, move into a period of growth. And we've got to be looking at the long term rather than the short term. The trick is, of course, not running out of money in the short term. And that's a really difficult place to be. Paul Marden: In the water, just here. Paul Sapwell: I don't have an easy answer to that, but I think fundamentally, you've got to give the customer what they want and the customer is still there. Paul Sapwell: And we have a fantastic product. But we've got to certainly pivot much further towards what customers want commercially, in my view, than putting as much emphasis as probably we did 10 years ago on trying to find more and more public funding, because I think that's going down. Paul Marden: Zak, have you got any thoughts on that? Zak Mensah: Yeah, I mean, in terms of money, just generally people want to back winners. So I think one of the difficult things that internally we can all say it's doom and gloom, because it does feel that doom and gloom. There are definitely days, weeks and months. I think it's right to say that it's doom and gloom. Like you can be optimist but still understand it's difficult time. And I think a lot of our, you know, a lot of our workforces certainly feel that, it can feel very difficult because every year they ask, will they have their job? Right. And that's a really fair question to ask. And we sometimes as leaders kind of say, “Oh, if we can get through the next two years, but two years for normal staff are sometimes a very long time to try and say, “You or may have not have a job to make life through.”Zak Mensah: So I think that's something I always think back in back of my mind. I think a lot of the difficulties, whichever flavour of government is about understanding how to be more savvy, about understanding the trends, about things that are fundable. Because there are lots of things that were funded 10, 20 years ago, that money has dried up. And so we've all got to think about, for example, a lot of people now looking at, well, being a speaker this afternoon was talking about more on EDI, for example, and how younger people certainly are interested in having more of a purpose driven business. Is how for us, we can make sure we're focused on the, what I was called, the user need. So the needs that people use us. Zak Mensah: Because if you can concentrate and focus on what they want, whether it be money, otherwise that ultimately does lead to a business model. Because there's no point saying just because museums and galleries have been around for 100 to 200 years, they have an absolute right to exist. The only way they exist is because every decade or whatever there's another crisis comes along and a group of people, including ourselves here, live in this room, but also listening to this make it happen. Like, we've got to convince councillors, government, businesses to be part of that journey. Because the funny thing I will say is that, you know, at Birmingham Museums, the art gallery was founded in 1885 by industry people. It was industry people that founded it. It was industry people who wanted the city to have great arts. Zak Mensah: And so now we're turning back to those same people and saying, "We need you to now step up and contribute." It doesn't always have to be money. It could be in kind support, could be advocacy. That's the kind of thing that we need to do as leaders right now, in addition to the normal making the money work and stretch as far as we can. Paul Marden: Absolutely. Amy, what are you doing at Young V&A to thrive in the year ahead and face some of these challenges? Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, absolutely. So we've now been open for just over two years, so I feel kind of, well, coming up to two years. And so I feel we're kind of in that stage where we kind of opened and sort of just try to make sure that we are operationally savvy. And last year was very much about refining that. And I think this year is very much about what's next and how can we build upon kind of success of opening, looking at ways in which we can innovate through doing new kind of commercial opportunities, but also how can we develop our audiences. And as well as part of kind of the wider V&A, we've got two more sites opening as well. Amy Akino-Wittering: So how as an organisation are we going to work together to kind of be in this new family of sites and work together through there? So I think for us in the kind of coming year is all about, what's next? We've opened the door. We started with a really strong foundation and a really strong vision, but then how can we keep on innovating and keep iterating that to improve? Paul Marden: Excellent. I'm going touch on stuff that Lewis talked about a minute ago. One of his reflections I really liked was thinking about how do we create a space for colleagues to engage with some of these really important issues that have been on the PowerPoints. Zak, maybe you could start. What do you think your organisation can do to act as bottom up catalyst for change as opposed to trying to drive these changes from the top down? Zak Mensah: I think the first thing is about understanding that there are a lot of people who do want to be able to voice their hopes and fears around a whole host of subjects, whether it be specifically around, if you're ethnic minority, about your fear of living in the UK, if you have climate, lots of important subjects people want to talk about. You know, I think certainly internally, and I'll be very clear about this, I think there's a very different view sometimes about the difference between internal and the external voice of the organisation. So what we see a lot of is staff individually believe that as a service there are lots of things we could and should be talking about publicly that may or may not directly align with how as a leader we see it. Zak Mensah: So, you know, there are lots of fights we do get into. We can't get into every single fight. And sometimes there's a real fine balance around what we decide to go for. So if you take during Black Lives Matter example, me and Sarah Shropshire started in November 2020, there was an expectation that immediately we would be like the spokesperson for the whole museum sector about black and brown issues. And like, it's really hard to say, actually. I am not speaking on behalf of every single person in the whole country. I do take it seriously and we set up internally ways people to talk about it, but didn't always feel appropriate. Zak Mensah: And I'll give another example is around, for example, war. Any one time there's something like 15 global conflicts happening and, you know, we talk and go backwards and forwards internally sometimes about, you know, do we talk about them publicly? If we talk about them internally, how we talk about them, do we single one out or do we talk about them all? Are they equal? How do you equally talk about things are very horrific for a number of people?Zak Mensah: And knowing that we've got staff from dozens of countries who all have different views on how their homeland or area they're interested in is impacted. Things are very horrific for a number of people. But I do think that there's always. It's always really tricky because the best conversations and the best conversations need care and a lot of the conversations happen in like, pockets that we have no control over. Zak Mensah: And so it's again, how do you set an environment as a leader that is allowing the bottom up to do their own thing, but in a way that isn't going to be detrimental to the whole workforce? Because I think it is. Again, I mentioned it's been. It's really tricky and that's the simple truth. It is no easy answer to these things because if it was easy, we'd all solved it. Yeah. But acknowledging it there, it's the elephant in the room, I think is really important and growing to be more and more important for us as leaders. Paul Marden: I think Lewis was saying it's really important to know where you stand on issues and it is okay for you to have a stance on issues that says, I'm not going to make a stand on this one issue. I thought that was a really interesting perspective. Imy's talk. I think were talking a lot about the journey of Titanic Belfast, which I love as a museum, to go to a museum that emotionally moved me as much with so very few actual artefacts. I just think it's an amazing storytelling experience. But you talked a little bit about the team and what you do to be able to nurture that team. And one of the things that we're talking about is trying to get 110% out of everybody getting to more with less, getting them to innovate. Paul Marden: How do you balance all of those challenges and not break the people and maintain a 98% retention rate like Titanic does? Paul? Paul Sapwell: Well, maintaining a 98 retention rate, I think fairly unprecedented and huge congratulations. I mean, I think it follows on a bit from what Zak was saying, actually. You know, it's tough, isn't it, being leaders in terms of whether you're making that kind of external message or whether you've got a tough internal message. I mean, I've always taken a stance that you've got to be as transparent as you possibly can be and people will go a long way with you if it doesn't appear that things are being taken in a dark room somewhere. And I think for us, what we've tried to do is to put in the mechanisms for that to happen. I've been really fortunate to work with a fantastic people director, Hampshire Cultural Trust. Paul Sapwell: One of the first things, I think you've also got to make a stance, by the way, on people being important. One of the first things I did as CEO was say we need a people director. It's quite rare in the heritage sector. I came from hospitality, it was the norm. It's an odd thing that people and HR doesn't always sit at the top table. Sometimes it's sort of delegated down in operations or even finance. So I think that's really important and we needed a strategy and part of that is putting in place a lot of the stuff that you talked about of the Titanic, which I think is really impressive. And we're somewhere on that journey, but not quite as far along, but proper employee forums where you listen. Paul Sapwell: I meet with an employee elected employee forum quarterly and talk to them about all issues with nothing off the table. We also have an EDI group with a mix, again, senior leadership on there talking about these issues. And I think that, you know, if there was one thing I would say it's, you're not always going to be able to give easy answers, are you? This year we're being hit with an enormous national insurance hit to the staff costs and that is going to affect pay. I can't pretend that it isn't. And if we're going to not run out of money in the next few years, we're going to have to give less of a pay increase this year than we would like to. Paul Sapwell: But we've been talking about that openly since it hit and I hope that our team will go, will understand, but obviously that doesn't make it, make it easy. And I think the same is true with the issues that you're talking about. You can't take a stance on every single issue that comes through each of these forums every quarter, but you have a conversation about it. And I think that's the most important bit for me. Paul Marden: Amy, I'm going to segue wide away from today's talks. Regular listeners will know that I'm a Trustee of Kids in Museums and I was chatting with my fellow trustees about today's event and we wondered, given the impact of the cultural sector, on the impact that it has on the lives of young people and how there are so many challenges at the moment for disadvantaged young people to engage in the sector. You know, we all know that post Covid, many schools have cut their school visits into museums and galleries. I pick you because Young V&A was the winner of Kids in Museums Family Friendly Awards last year. So let's just start with you and talk about what are the innovative things that you've done to break down barriers to encourage children and families to engage in the museum. Amy Akino-Wittering: Yes, of course. So Young V&A when we kind of opened its entire purpose is about engaging children. It's all about kind of that creative confidence in Generation Alpha. And so the whole museum has been designed with and for young people. So its target audience is between naught to 14 year olds. We spoke with over 22,000 young people in the development of the museum to hear what do they want from it. I think there's a survey which said that 40% of children thought that museums were boring and it weren't places for them. So, well, what can we do as we've got this opportunity to redevelop, to make sure that it is a place that people want to go and enjoy and be themselves. Amy Akino-Wittering: And so that was kind of like the North Star in terms of what every kind of decision in the kind of opening and making and running of Young V&A is really centred around this as well. And so it goes from the aesthetic in terms of the height of things, the bright colours from this swirling staircase that we have at Young V&A, which came from an idea that someone wanted to helter skelter in the space to the tone of voice in our interpretation and also how the objects are displayed. We've got objects from across the V&A, we've got over 2,000 objects. But it's not just the museum as was the Museum of Childhood collection, it's from across all of the different departments of the V&A. And it's been curated with that kind of child centred and child focused way. Amy Akino-Wittering: Co design is also a really kind of core part of it as well. So we kind of co designed with local audiences and children for various design displays and also co curation. So each gallery was co curated between the learning team and the curatorial team as well. And then obviously we've kind of got to actually open the building and have a team to deliver that visitor experience. And again, that is all very much fed through that audience lens. And so we looked at our structures of, you know, what types of people do we want in the space? You know, our core audience are children. We need people who want to engage with that audience. It's a very specific kind of audience, but also we are a hyper local organisation as well and so how can we encourage applicants from the local boroughs? Amy Akino-Wittering: So we drove a very inclusive recruitment process where we basically did a behaviour led process for recruitment, we redid all the job descriptions, went out into our local community, did workshops and CV surgeries and basically just made it as easy as possible for people to apply and get interview. And the kind of core things that were looking at was behaviours. We can teach people how to go on a till or to learn how to do fire evacuations, but actually it's much harder to get people because that's what the job is. You know, the majority, you know, all your visitors will come to a touch point with the front of house team. They are your most important ambassadors. Amy Akino-Wittering: So we need to make sure that we've got the best kind of resources and time and structure in place to support them, to give the best possible experience that we can. So we spent a lot of time doing that. We spent a lot of time as well working Kids in Museums come in and do training about specific family engagement training as well, which has been really beneficial. And then also we really believe that, you know, the customer experience, the visitor experience is directly impacted by the employee experience. You can't expect the team to deliver this amazing, joyful visitor experience if actually they're pretty miserable behind the scenes. So how can we make sure that the structures that we have and the environment that we have is reflective of how we want them to be on the floor as well? Amy Akino-Wittering: So we make sure that we have forums to make sure that, you know, people can have their say. We make sure. So we did this team charter, which was this sort of collaborative effort to see, like, how do you want to feel in the workplace, but also how do you want your visitors to feel? And actually, it was all very similar in terms of the outcomes that came from that kind of exercise. And it's these kind of agreement that we have together to how we're going to work together and those kind of things which we do to ensure. It's that kind of frequent communication and making sure that we're on the same page and it kind of brings that joy which then comes out to the visitors. Amy Akino-Wittering: And that is kind of I think all those things together has all really helped in terms of when someone comes into the space, children, they're front and centre. They really feel like it's a place for them and they've got kind of people around them which really get them and that they will help facilitate their curiosity and things like that. So that's what we've done. Paul Marden: Amazing. Paul, have you got some thoughts? Paul Sapwell: Yeah. I love what you're saying about the visitor. The visitor services guys on the front desk. I mean, they are the most important people, essentially, and that's why I was nodding vigorously. I think that's part of what I was talking about earlier in terms of pivot into more of a commercial view, because a commercial company completely relies on their customer who comes in. And I think my experience of being in an organisation that's moved out of being run predominantly by a council to one that's independent now was, I've got to be honest, at the start, that wasn't how it felt. Paul Sapwell: And actually you could produce big lists of visitor figures, but ultimately, if they went up or down, it didn't really matter because the funding was going to stay the same, whatever, and there would be other metrics, and I think that's the big shift in mentality, because if you don't give the customer what they want, and that means really valuing people on your front line. And, you know, we've had conversations at the Museum Association about it, about how there's almost been that divide in museums between the people who talk to your customers and the museum staff. And I think that's a really. Or people who would see themselves doing proper museum work. And I think that, you know, that's something we've got to. We're moving in the right direction, but we've got to move quicker. Paul Marden: All of our best memories, aren't they, of going to these places are not necessarily about the amazing artefacts, it's the stories that your team tell people when they interact with them. You feel so happy as a result of it. I think of some amazing experiences. Zak, have you got any thoughts on this? Innovative ways in which we make museums family friendly, how we encourage make them more children friendly? Zak Mensah: Well, the first thing is it's something like 50% of people have children. And so knowing that is in the UK is a thing. Just knowing that as a fact. Right. Means that thinking then about families who will come, but also the staff workforce. Because again, like, you know, if your staff, you're your biggest advocates we just talked about is making it friendly for people to have children in the workforce means that most people recommend it and word of mouth is the biggest way that you can influence people and then from that when people come. So we've got nine venues overall pre pandemic, have a million visitors a year. Zak Mensah: We say we're family friendly, but I've got two young children and quite often the experience, not just my place, but other places doesn't actually say match up with that because like just saying to a seven year old, you must love art, doesn't really work, right, if it's Blue. Paul Marden: Can't tell them. You can't just make them like, yeah. Zak Mensah: I can't tell anything because anyone in my family anything. If you convince about bluey=, then you've got another chance. But you know, you've got to think about actually what is their experience going to be. So, you know, have you got picnic area? Have you got toilets? Lots of toilets. Do you allow your staff, for example, in previous roles? We allow people, if they want to do potty training, they could do potty training in the gallery. Because the reality was if they didn't use the potty that they had in their bag, it was going somewhere else. And so I remember watching in horror as someone literally tried to scoop up a child and move their parent out of a gallery to start to go to the toilet. Zak Mensah: And I was like, there was no way they were going to make it out that door. I would love to have that CCTV footage because I bet that was quite interesting. But, you know, it sounds, you know, some sort of flippant and fun. Zak Mensah: But that's the little thing because like all those little things about making it, you know, enjoyable. Because if you can make it enjoyable for the. For the parent or the guardian, you can make it fun for the, you know, for the kids. You know, you have to have sharp crayons and pencils. Whatever it is, like always things that's really kids don't want much. That's the little thing because like all those little things about making it, you know, enjoyable. Right. Like, if you can give them almost that version of experience to make people think it's good. Because I think we sometimes dissociate the child's experience with the fact they're with someone else. So actually you've got to make it good for the people that they're with. And quite often people do it, you know, who take. Zak Mensah: They might take the extended family. So they'll say like, you know, I'll take my niece or whatever, I'm there. And they don't usually actually have to have the children. So sometimes they need help as well, you know, to make sure the experience. Paul Marden: Extra needs to be able to solve the kids' problems. Zak Mensah: Absolutely. So for me it's about making it that friendly from that perspective. So often with school trips, for example, it's how can you make the school trips fun? Because I see quite a lot of kids on school trips that they sort of being marched through and forced to go. So then they're less likely to recommend it to their parents and their parents just like to come. So for me, it's kind of like trying to use that learning visit which often people's first. Most people tell me, I've been to museum as a child and they usually get towards school age, secondary school, and they don't go anymore. Paul Marden: Yes. Zak Mensah: So it's like, how do we make sure that. I don't think as a sector where family friendly enough, other than those people who already are super engaged, they make the kids have fun. I'm probably talking about my trauma now. Paul Marden: Let's return today's speakers. Let's just talk a little bit about Mike's discussion of using behavioural models to influence buying decisions. Yeah. What are the biggest behavioural barriers that you see within your organisation? In terms of visitor experience, from kind of awareness through to decision making, what could you do? What could you change? Zak Mensah: So the first obvious one is a lot of people are terrified of being in spaces because they're not sure how to behave. There's this weird secret code that doesn't. It's not actually written down anywhere that people think the museum experience has got to be quiet, that it's got to be. That you've got to know what you're looking at. It can't just be fun. And actually having. Just having fun is a really important part of what you want to do. So for us, I think the problem is, as well as once you work in the sector, those barriers are invisible because you just work there. You feel comfortable now coming. Yeah. And so the behaviour part is super interesting. And so, for example, it's a phrase I sometimes use around, like. Zak Mensah: It's around this idea of, like, “People like us do things like this”, which I stole from Seth Godin. So, you know, what we did, for example, is w e now don't have staff uniform because we've got quite a diverse. We're dividing diversity in Birmingham and we want people to feel comfortable and recognise people outside the building who then might be going, like, sure, I might. Hoodies, for example. If you wear a hoodie, you might own. The museum's. Not for me, the museums for other people who wear suits, etc. So actually, if they see staffing. Yeah, if they see staff in hoodies or whatever, in hijabs or niqab, whichever outfit they want to wear, then that is a signal about those people are welcome. Zak Mensah: That's one example where that idea came from the team about how we can show and tell and do what we say we're going to do, rather than just saying, “Oh, but we're really friendly museums are great and come in.” Because actually they are intimidating from the outside. They're often intimidating intellectually. Paul Marden: Yep. Zak Mensah: The train, the media, all the time is being really high brow all the time. So it's like actually we. We have to find ways to accept that those barriers exist. And that often means finding people who don't use you to actually tell you that. And we've just finished a citizen's jury, for example, which had almost 30 people who are representative of the city come in and 80% of them at the first meeting said they didn't think the museum is relevant to them. Those are ordinary people who live in the city who. That's 80% of those people. Four in five people don't think the museum is relevant for them, even though we know that we could make it relevant to them. And that was a really sad, shocking figure, but also is motivating. Zak Mensah: And I think our job, you know, as leaders is how do we help people feel inclusive, to be an inclusive space and then like. And go for it. Paul Marden: Excellent. Thank you, Amy. Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, I think a lot of what we have done as well is to try and go out of our four walls of Young V&A as well. So we do a lot of kind of community engagement as well through kind of the learning team as well as for volunteering programme. Like we rocked up at stores at Whitechapel Market and kind of saying, “This is our kind of programme”, just chatting with people where they haven't heard of Young V&A even though it's down the road. And so it's like, how can we, yeah, kind of go out and about and also kind of advocate across as well. And then also it's like when people do kind of take that step to actually go onto our site and then come into the building making sure that the visitor experience is as inclusive, as welcoming as possible. Similar. Amy Akino-Wittering: We also just have aprons and they can wear whatever they want underneath and just again, so as people feel relaxed and they feel when our audiences come in, they say, oh yeah, no, that's something that I might wear. Or you know, they just feel more kind of settled and at home. So that's something that's really important that we kind of do as well. Paul Marden: Lovely, Paul. Paul Sapwell: The biggest challenge for us, I mean being a smaller organisation and a brand that isn't known. As well as it could be, I think our biggest challenge now is that customer journey from online through to what you get when you arrive and we're not consistent enough. And I know we'd all talk about this forever but you know, big commercial organisations do this really well. You know, you're going to sell a ticket within a couple of clicks from a social media piece, you're going to get a follow up email that looks exciting and you know, then your product is either going to arrive or you're going to arrive at it and it will be like you thought you were buying. And I'm not sure that we always do that. Paul Sapwell: I've got to be honest and I think to do that you've got to put a lot of investment in it. And that's what we're part of the strategy that we've launched, we launched back in November is about that. Paul Sapwell: And again, that comes back to, you know, commercial mindsets that matters. It matters that we put the right image in whatever way that is to the right customer who we're trying to attract. We've got to understand those customers better and then make sure that's, that's seamless. And, you know, we run 20 venues. They're really different. We've got everything from the Great Hall, Mediaeval Hall in Winchester, which is full of people on from travel trade have come off of cruises and things. And then we've got Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, which is a sort of family living history museum. Paul Sapwell: They don't get any international tourists. So having a really limited pot of marketing to be able to go all these sort of areas is really difficult. But I think that would be the challenge. But thinking about it holistically, really, because it's the same person who clicks on the social media ad to the person who ends up arriving in your venue. And that needs to be really consistent. Yeah, it sounds like cash is the barrier. We're going to try and work with it. But that's the important bit for me. Paul Marden: I'm grinning like the village idiot because this is what I advocate all the time. I'm looking at my marketing friends in the audience who would also share. Share your thoughts on this. We know from the Rubber Cheese survey that it's eight to 10 steps it takes people to checkout. I tried to buy tickets for an aquarium last year and they made me enter a password along with the names and addresses of everybody that was joining me and then told me off three times for getting the password wrong in the checkout process. I had to be really to buy those tickets and. Paul Sapwell: Well, yeah, you touch on. Yeah. I mean, we could have a whole conversation, but no, I mean, we love a complicated ticketing system in the cultural sector, don't we? I mean, with all the right intentions. I mean, even the list in some places of different concessions. I mean, you don't want to go. I think I'm that or I'm that. You know, and it's done with the right intention. But it's an enormous barrier. Paul Marden: Yeah, completely. Paul Sapwell: And you know, we make things so complex and I don't have the fix, but I know we've got to fix it. And that means putting sort of. Again, learn from companies who do this really well rather than. Yeah. Looking for ideas ourselves. Lots of people do it really well out there. That's what we got to do. Paul Marden: Thinking of lots of my team who might think that this is something somebody should solve. Zak Mensah: The fix is simple, isn't it? Because you just said then that there are other people doing it well. What we're not really good at artists actually copying people. Zak Mensah: Like just copy someone else who's done it better than us. It's really. It really does annoy me. Let's just say that what always happens is that we make decisions by committee, don't we? So it would have been two steps, but then someone from marketing said, but you've got to have a newsletter. And someone from another team would say, “You've got to also ask for this. And then you've got to do this. Then you've got to try and get the kids to come for school trip.” Before you know it, people mean well and they've made it really complicated. I think sometimes it's like, actually, let's just do the simplest thing. Let's do all the hard work to remove those barriers and then we can try and flog them stuff when they get there. Paul Marden: So friend of mine, Andy talks a lot about you don't go to a fine dining restaurant and walk up to the maitre d and he says to you, “Would you like a table, by the way, are you going to have dessert? And would you like a coffee? And what are you going to have for your starter main course and dessert? Oh, right, I'll take you to your table.” You have a conversation with people and you lead them and you don't try and pack everything into the very first time you ever talk to the potential client. Zak Mensah: Which is why Greg's does so well. Paul Marden: Yeah, look guys, I could carry on about this conversation, but we are the barrier to everybody getting to their drinks and nibbles and so we've got. Paul Sapwell: Including us. Paul Marden: I know, sorry. We've got a couple of things that I must cover. So we always ask our guests for a book recommendation. It can be a novel, it can be work related. So Zak, would you like to go first with yours? Zak Mensah: Yeah. Turn the ship around! I think it's David Marquet. It's a book about a nuclear submarine commander who basically realises all these stupid rules. And so he just said to everyone, just tell me you intend to. So say to him, I intend to turn the ship left, I intend to take holiday, etc, because he realised that there were so many stupid rules and I think museum will have loads of stupid rules. It's a really good thing. And I know most of you won't read the book because most people say, “Yeah, I'll read it. They don't read it.” There's a 10 minute YouTube video. Surely you can spend 10 minutes of time if you can't be bothered to do that. There is literally a 30 second Wikipedia article about it. But please don't do it. Paul Marden: Zak feels very strongly about this. Paul, your book recommendation, please. Paul Sapwell: Well, last year I read Wild Swans by Jung Chang and I'm trying to find a way of getting into a business conversation. I think there's so much that comes out of that book, but I think, yeah, striving for Utopia is often, you know, the book. Right. Most people in terms of living under communist China and we know we could go on about utopian things that haven't worked, but I think there's, for this conversation, that's perhaps where we need to think, you know, going forward here. There isn't a sort of utopian way that things should be done for our sector. There is, you know, we're making our way here and yeah. Obviously it's a fantastic book. Paul Marden: Excellent. Thank you, Paul. Amy, your recommendation? Amy Akino-Wittering: Yeah, so mine isn't linked to like professional development at all. Mine. Paul Marden: Well, you did have one. Amy Akino-Wittering: Well, I did have one and you were like, no, just go for your favourite one. So I was like, Persuasion by Jane Austen. It's a classic. Paul Marden: We've got, we've got big anniversary at the moment, haven't we? In Chawton where Jane Austen lived has got big thing about 200 years, 250 years? Amy Akino-Wittering: Celebration for the whole year. So I'm gonna go in. Paul Sapwell: Yeah, everyone's trying to get in on this, by the way. I just have to put this out there. You know, she was born in Hampshire. Paul Marden: I know. Paul Sapwell: Born in Hampshire, actually. Born Basingstoke. Paul Marden: I know.Paul Sapwell: Yes. Paul Marden: There's a lot of celebrations for Jane this year. Paul Sapwell: Yeah, everyone's trying. I've seen so many angles for her. Oh, she was here and she went to the toilet. Fair enough. I mean, it's a big celebration. Paul Marden: If you'd like a copy of the book or any of these books, head over to Bluesky and like and repost the show announcement saying, I want Zak, Paul or Amy's book. And the first person to do that will get the book sent to them. Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this episode, then please leave us a five star review. It really does help more people to find us and remember to follow us on Bluesky , X or Instagram for your chance to win the book. Thank you very much, everybody. Paul Sapwell: Thank you. Amy Akino-Wittering: Thank you. The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.Competition ends on 19th February 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky. Show references: https://www.yorkmaze.com/Tom Pearcy, Chairman of NFAN and Controller of Fun at York MazeTom is the "corntroller of fun" at York maze, the UK's most popular corn based attraction. Tom diversified from farming in 2001 with a small corn maze, and the business has quite literally grown year on year. York maze now has over 20 corn themed rides, shows and attractions. Tom was recently appointed chairman of the national farm attractions network, the representative body for the UK's farm attraction sector.   https://www.escapadegroup.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-bull-5907968/Helen Bull - Chief Executive Officer - The Escapade Group Ltd https://www.tulleysfarm.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartbeare/Stuart Beare, CEO, Tully's Entertainment GroupStuart has developed Tulleys Farm into one of the UK's best known seasonal attraction venues and operators. The Tulleys Farm Partnership includes retail, catering and venue hire.The Tulleys Productions arm has been developed from the operational and marketing experience in the UK Halloween, Haunted and Scare attractions sector, it comprises of three key companies. Stuart's company Screams Attractions Ltd focuses on overall event concepts, operational systems, mentoring, business planning and scare attraction design. Scream Park entertainments Ltd supports and advises on scare actor recruitment, training and management. FunFear Ltd design and install scare attraction technical solutions, from lighting, power, attraction safety through to sound.Stuart has spoken widely at conferences and seminars in the US, Canada and the UK on Agritainment, Agri-Tourism and seasonal attractions, especially focused on the UK Scare attractions industry and the Tulleys Farm Halloween Shocktober Fest event. https://www.innovativeleisure.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/phil-pickersgill-5a988010/Phil Pickersgill, MD, Innovative LeisurePhil has over 35 years' experience in the leisure and attractions industry and has plenty left to contribute!With a background in engineering coupled with his in depth knowledge of the industry, he founded Innovative Leisure with a vision to introduce new, adventure related products, from around the world to the UK and European markets.Phil plays an active role in a number of the trade associations that steer the leisure industry for example: as a Chair of Trade Members (from Jan 2023) and part of the BALPPA Management Committee (British Association of Leisure Parks, Piers and Attractions) for over 14 years (and a past member of the NFAN Management Committee (National Farm Attractions Network).Through these groups, and his extensive industry network, he is usually very close to the latest developments, issues and trends in the market. https://www.roarr.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-adam-goymour-5248832a/Adam Goymour, MD, Roarr! is one of our previous guests on the podcast.Check out his previous episode back in 2020 with Kelly Molson.https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/adam-goymour Adam proudly involved in my family owner/operator portfolio of businesses. Which owns and operates1. The leading day visitor attraction in Norfolk (ROARR!) West of Norwich, where it also hosts (PrimEvil) - Norfolks largest scare experience event. (UK's Best Scream Park