Podcast appearances and mentions of barbara well

On this episode, my guest is Barbara from No Name Kitchen, an independent movement working alongside the Balkans and the Mediterranean routes to promote humanitarian aid and political action for those who suffer the difficulties of extreme journeys and violent push-backs.Their actions include medical care, distributions of food and clothes, legal support and the denunciation of abuses at the borders, where thousands of human beings keep suffering violence, fatigue and sickness during their migratory processes.No Name Kitchen was born in Belgrade by winter 2017 when a group of volunteers started cooking in Belgrade alongside the thousands of people who were fending for themselves after the closure of the Hungarian frontier. Since then, NNK supports those who suffer the lack of safe and legal pathways, collecting testimonies and denouncing the systematic use of institutional violence at the borders.Show NotesNo Name Kitchen: What's in a Name?Social Media as a Tool for OrganizingThe KitcheneersIt's a Border Crisis, not a Migration CrisisWhy do People Seek Asylum in EuropeHow the EU is Breaking its Own LawsBorder Violence in the BalkansWhat are Pushbacks?The Silence of Big-Name NGOsFrom Hospitality to Hostility: A Story in KladusaMigrants as Puppets in Political WarsThe EU's Racist Immigration ActionsThe Lives of NNK's Guests After the BorderHomeworkNo Name Kitchen Website - Facebook - Instagram - TwitterVolunteer w/ No Name KitchenLatitude Adjustment Program Podcast episode w/ No Name KitchenTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Welcome, Barbara, to the End of Tourism Podcast. Thank you for joining us on behalf of No Name Kitchen. [00:00:07] Barbara: Thank you very much, Chris.[00:00:10] Chris: I'd love it if we could start off with you telling us where you find yourself today, both geographically and perhaps emotionally as well. What does the world look like for you?[00:00:21] Barbara: So, actually in a very interesting place because I am visiting one friend who was living with me in Bosnia, who's one of the persons that started with me and developed with me the project of No Name Kitchen in Bosnia. And so I'm visiting her that we didn't see her for the last four years because we're all the time very busy with our lives and with our different projects.So I'm here with her these days with plan to head to Croatia next week. Because the political context changed in the borders a little bit in the last month and now there are people on the move in that are passing through Rijeka, this one Croatian city, and I want to go to see the situation there.And then maybe, if I find the time, I will also head Kladusa and Bihac that are the border areas of Bosnia where I used to live in the past and where I spend a lot of time with my life there. [00:01:14] Chris: Mm. Interesting. And you're from Spain originally, is that correct? [00:01:18] Barbara: Yeah, I'm from Spain and normally I, I spend the most of the time in Spain in the last years because sometimes you need a break from the border. Emotionally I feel very well as well because I'm with my friend who is a brilliant person and I adore her. She was a perfect colleague you know, when you're at the border, the life is very tough. You see a lot of people suffering.But having her as a colleague, it was beautiful thing because we gave too much support to each other. [00:01:44] Chris: What a blessing. What a blessing. Mm. [00:01:47] Barbara: I was very lucky. [00:01:49] Chris: Well, I know that a lot of the work that No Name Kitchen does is based in the Balkans and as well in Ceuta in Spain. And we'll come to those regions momentarily.But I'd like to ask you first why no name Kitchen? Why a kitchen without a name? [00:02:07] Barbara: It's a very nice story because No Name Kitchen was born in a very informal way. You know, it is not actually an organization. It's a movement of people. And there are different organizations registered in different countries, but itself No Name Kitchen is a movement of people helping people. And in 2017, so let's make a little bit of context. In 2016, European Union sent money to Turkey to close the border of the Balkans. Yeah. So, in the beginning of 2017, in the winter, many people found themselves in Serbia. They were trying to migrate to go to some country in Europe, and then they found themselves in Serbia with the borders of European Union closed. And many people like were activists that went to Greece to help people on the move because they knew the situation or what was happening since 2015.You probably remember in 2015 all this amount of people that were going from Turkey to somewhere in Europe to ask for asylum, to seek international protection. So many people were in Greece helping. They got information that in the city center of Belgrade, which is the capital city of Serbia, they were like more than 1000 people, mainly from Afghanistan at that moment, many of them minors with no parents, living in the old train station in a very bad conditions. And the weather was horrible. It was super cold. It was probably one of the coldest winters of the last years. So they just went there. They got some food from an organization. They went there and they saw a horrible situation where no one of the big institutional organizations were helping.So then, they, with these posts that they had and asking for, help in social media, in their own social media, people start sending money and they start cooking right away. So, then they found this group of activists from many countries found themselves cooking every day and also together with people on the move and distributing food every day, every night.And then one day, they were like, this seems like an organization. We actually are kind of organization. And then one guy, one from Afghanistan, he wrote on the wall with a spray kitchen. No, because it's like, we have a kitchen, we have an organization, but we have no name. And then it's the same guy.He wrote "No Name," and then it was like, "No Name Kitchen." And it just stay like this. I think it's amazing. It's a very pure name and it really shows what is the way No Name Kitchen movement works. Its informal way of people cooperating and doing things together and helping each other.[00:04:31] Chris: And so in that context, it was a spontaneous organization of people, or how did they, I mean, obviously people heard about this, but how did they come to organize together? [00:04:41] Barbara: Social media is most instant thing, right? So, they opened this facebook profile, and then they say, what is going on. Some journalists started going there because these activists started talking about the situation. So, journalism and photojournalists went there and start showing the images. Mm-hmm. Oh, because it was really like minus 20 degrees and things like that. And people were living in the old train station and were using this wood from the old train station that has this liquid that is toxic.So it was pretty awful. And also at the same time, the activists start hearing all these stories about the pushbacks, which is, yeah, something I would keep denouncing, since then, that is when people try to enter European Union, police will push them back to Serbia with violence, which is totally illegal.So yeah, it was just people that were in Greece trying to help people in Greece. Finally, everybody knows everybody in this activist world, and if you don't know anyone, then you contact someone and then this person will tell you, "Ah, there is this group of people doing that."Maybe you're interested. And then with the Facebook, they started to ask for donations. They started to call for more people to go and help because the situation was a big emergency and needed more, more people. Some other people will give interviews on newspapers, for example. I was not there at the moment. I arrived some months later. And how I met No Name Kitchen is because one girl told her situation to one Spanish newspaper. I read this interview. I found like amazing what they're doing. I found them on the social media and I contacted No Name Kitchen. And then I head to Belgrade few months after. So yeah, spontaneously. [00:06:11] Chris: Within the kitchens themselves, if we can call it that, within the No Name Kitchens, what kind of people end up showing up?Are these people who are already a part of the No name Kitchen Network? Or are they local people as well? [00:06:24] Barbara: Well, we call ourselves "kitcheners." It's many different kind of people. Like really it's, it's people. People want to help. People are good, despite all the politics that surround us, there is a lot of beautiful people in this world, and they can be someone who is. Retired and he was a lawyer in his life and now he finished his work and he's 66 years old and he wants to do something and he goes to Serbia and he spends there two months. He can be someone that's 22 years old and is doing an internship for the university and decided instead of doing a very easy internship, they will come with us and face what is really the situation in Europe? It's a very wide movement of people. Some of them can come to the borders and we have a policy of minimum one month cause it makes everything easier for the work, right? But then also a kitchener is a person that is in his home or her hometown gathering beautiful clothes to send to the border so people can dress nicely and is a person that is making some event in her or his town to raise money to share, to send to the activities. And there's really a lot of people, because many people are good and many people wanna help. They understand we cannot really be living in this Europe that they are making for us, the politicians. No, we need a more human place to live. Yeah. It's true. As you mentioned before, that is more people from the south of Europe and Germany also, not so much from the north of Europe.[00:07:45] Chris: Speaking of the issues in the Balkans, in between Serbia and Turkey and Greece, of course. Perhaps for our listeners, if you could, perhaps there's a way of summarizing briefly the main issues that are arising in Southern Europe regarding these immigration crises.Why is this happening? What are the major positions of the European Union, of organizations like No Name Kitchen, and what does that dynamic look like? From a distance, [00:08:15] Barbara: So first, I wanted to tell you in No Name Kitchen we don't say "migration crisis" because there are not really so many people who are migrating.So the crisis has been it's a border crisis, a political crisis. It's a humanitarian crisis. There are not so many migrants. And if the borders will be open, all this mess will not be happening. Right? So we don't call it migration crisis. So, basically according to the European Union law, if you wanna apply for asylum, if you come from a country that is in war or a country with a dictatorship, that when you complain about something or you can see yourself in jail from a country in conflict or whatever or you're from LGBTQ++ if you wanna apply for asylum is very, very few chances that you can get any visa to travel to Europe. So imagine you're in Syria, you're in Afghanistan, you're in Iraq, you're in Morocco, and you wanna apply for asylum to come to Europe or to get any visa that will allow you to come to Europe by plane.It's very, very, very few chances that they will give you any visa to come. But the European Union law also says that if you're in the European Union soil and you apply for asylum and you apply for international protection, it's your right that the country where you are, it starts a procedure to see and to understand if you really need this protection, which long legal procedure.And it takes a while. Yeah. So that basically is one of the main reasons why people are seeing themselves crossing borders in irregular manners and seeing themselves risking their lives as it just happened now from Libya, this shipwreck in Greece. So people are coming from Libya to Italy and now.A lot of people have died and others are in centers in Greece now. So this is the main point why people will cross the borders in irregular manners. But then there is a problem and it's like European Union is not following its own rules. So then when a person arrives in, for example, let's say Greece, let's say Bulgaria, I say this because they are more in the south, let's say Croatia or Hungary, countries that are bordered with other their countries, the people arrived there and then when they tried to apply for asylum, the most of common thing that can happen to them. And what we've been denouncing since the very beginning because people were explaining to us and we saw it was something very systematically. And it's something that is happening on a daily basis is that police take them back to this other country, which means a pushback. We call this a "pushback."And many times these pushbacks, which are illegal according to the European Union law, come with a lot of violence. Many times the police will steal the things from the people on the move. And many times they take, for example, their shoes when it's winter and then people to walk in the snow in the winter without shoes until they arrive to a safe place.So this is basically why people are crossing borders in this ways. Then another question that is very common, why a person will not stay, for example, in Bosnia, will not stay in Serbia, in North Macedonia, which are safe countries, which are very nice countries. Yeah. So, the problem is that if you look to the numbers, there are very few people, that get asylum there.So, there is people that tried too because it's like, okay, I'm in a safe place. There's no work here, and it's a beautiful place. But then if you look to the numbers, there are very, very, very few people every year that can access asylum. And while also you're waiting for your asylum to proceed, normally they keep you in those camps that really don't have the basic conditions to really have a decent life. I mean, these refugee camps, transit camps; it depends how they them in each country. [00:11:54] Chris: Wow. Thank you. And the major sites that no-name Kitchen operates in include Ceuta in Spain, which surprisingly, is actually on the African mainland. Mm-hmm. As well as in the Balkans in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Patras, Greece. [00:12:13] Barbara: Patras has just finished. Right. Basically many people are not going anymore to Greece as before because in Greek, the polices became very tough against people who are migrating. So, many times people are forced to be in detention centers, like in detention camps while they apply for asylum, while they wait for the asylum to proceed. It's like really a jail. Mm-hmm. So now many people go through Bulgaria and then Serbia.So in Greece there are not so many people anymore as it used to be. And we just close few weeks ago. But we're always open that there are more people start coming to Greece that we can reopen any project there. Okay. [00:12:47] Chris: And these other sites then in Ceuta as well as Serbia, Bosnia, and Bulgaria, these places are so important for No Name Kitchen in part because this is essentially where the movement of people flows through?[00:13:01] Barbara: We are basically in the borders because we do many things, not every day. We share food, clean clothes, provide tools that people can have hot showers, because also the many people don't have access to water. We have a health project that if someone needs a paid treatment because it's like, for example, dentist or for the eyes.And then in the hospital they don't wanna to give any of these treatments and we pay for the private doctors and so on. So it's many activities that we do every day about spending time with people in the movement, listening and spending and sharing our stories. But then all this also bring us to see how much their rights are attacked all the time.So then the aim is to denounce. The aim is that we don't need not to give this charity because there will be justice and then people don't need anymore. So the aim is to denounce what is happening all the time. So, in the place where we're is basically border areas. Mm-hmm. The border areas is where you can see how Europe is really not respecting the human rights.And because quite tough places, there is not so many movements on these areas. So for example, the humanitarian aid is pretty much criminalized. So normally police will disturb you just because you're giving jackets to people. Mm. So it's are places that are strategically for denouncing. And since it just started in Serbia, first it started in Belgrade, but three months after the team moved to Sid, which is in the border with Croatia because many people were there. And it was a point where you could really denounce on the pushbacks from Croatia. So then, all the other projects have been going very much together with the idea of reporting the border violence.Yeah. Mm. And in Ceuta, Spain, which is bordered with Morocco. It's like another border for people because even if it's a Spain, people are not allowed to take a ferry very easily to the mainland, it's very difficult. So there is a lot of bureaucratic problems in the middle, like barriers that are being pushed to the people, so then they don't have the chance to cross legally to the mainland.So many people also risk their life there. And at the same time, sometimes there are pushbacks from Ceuta to Morocco. We've denounced the pushbacks of minors and actually together with other organizations from Spain. And actually the former delegate of the government got investigated for that. And they are under, I dunno how you say in English, like invest. [00:15:27] Chris: Investigations. [00:15:29] Barbara: Yeah. So basically border areas are very much important for what we wanna denounce. Mm. And now we're starting operating in Ventimiglia, Italy, which even inside of Italy is very near France.And we visited the place there and then we saw how there are also pushbacks from France. So this is another place that it could, it could be interesting to denounce, because many, many times people would think like, ah, but this is happening there in Croatia and Serbia you know, like, Serbia is not European Union, so people sometimes think that when we are talking about the pushbacks and all this violence, like very far from us, and it's difficult to make people understand that it's actually with the money that comes from the European Union. That means that if you are from the European Union or you're working here and paying taxes here, your taxes are used to pay to torture people, basically.No. Mm wow. So it's also nice to be inside of Europe to show how this violence is systematic in the different borders. [00:16:23] Chris: Right. And in the context of these pushbacks I imagine they're happening in all different contexts and circumstances. Could you give us a little bit of an idea of what that looks like?I mean, I imagine a few different things. I imagine that people are in detention centers, people are in refugee camps. I imagine that in some instances people are simply on the street and then perhaps in others trying to get a meal. [00:16:51] Barbara: I mean, we don't see the pushbacks. Pushbacks are hidden. And also we are at the other side of the borders. We only can meet people after they got pushed-back.. Yeah. Mm. Okay. So for example, you're in Serbia and this person tells you, like, I just been pushback from Hungary.We're not in the border area. You cannot be at the border. We're in different towns near the border areas. Ok. So a pushback is like a person tries to cross the border in different ways. For example, walking the forest, hidden. It's very common.So these are the stories that people tell to us. And then at some points, police see them in maybe in Hungary or maybe in Bulgaria, or maybe in Croatia. Those are all European Union countries. And then either the police or it can be also neighbors that they believe they're patriots, they'll call the police.Mm-hmm. You can see the people on the move walking and then the police will can arrive there and can take the people back to the border by cars. Many times they need to sign papers that they don't know what is written on these papers. Many times they get lied by the police telling, like, if you sign this paper, you can access to asylum.And actually you're signing a paper that is making you a punishment for something or you're signing that you want to really go back to the other countries, so, you're signing something that you don't know. Many times people get put into detention places. It's very common in Bulgaria and in Croatia for example.And then when they leave these detention places, they are told that they need to pay for their days they've been sleeping there for the accommodation on the food, which is like normally according to what people explain to us, accommodation on food are awful. Many times, not even enough food. And many times we're talking that those are children or very young people, as well.And then police will take them to the border and then force them to come back to the country that is not European Union, which means maybe Bosnia, maybe Serbia, or maybe Turkey if they're in Bulgaria. And many times this comes with very huge violence. As you can see in our websites, we speak often about this. No Name Kitchen created one Network that is called Border Violence Monitoring Network. Border Violence Monitoring Network. Now we are not anymore part of it since last month, because we will report in other ways by ourselves and with other different partners. But there you can find all the testimonies we've been gathering since 2017.And it's how the people describe to us what happens to them. Many times, you can't really see, because many times the people describe to you one situation and then they show you their back and in their back you see the marks of the batons or the marks of sticks or things like that, so it's very obvious to see that the person is injured. Many times people can come with blood or with bruises in their faces because the police did them in their faces. Wow. And then other of the things that is very common is to steal their belongings. So like this, you make more difficult for them to continue their trip because then they take their phones, their clothes, money.So then if you see yourself, for example, in Serbia, again with no phone, with no money, with no shoes, with no basic clothes, then you cannot continue your trip. You need to find a way to get money again. You need to find, like, for example, that your family sends to you and then you can buy another phone and then you can buy new shoes.So you can continue, at some point, your way to try to ask for international protection to some European Union country. Wow. Wow. [00:20:11] Chris: I guess there's this aspect of the state that seems so deeply involved in the suppression and repression of these movements, especially from asylum seekers, right?Mm-hmm. And I think this is something that you hear about quite a bit in many parts of the world where there are these border crises, right? In regards to people who live in the borderlands who are for whatever reason against the movement or flows of people in this regard against asylum seekers in this obviously ends up or can end up with not just hostility, but violence, racism, et cetera.And I'm also curious about the possibility of hospitality in these contexts. And certainly no name kitchen appears to take on that role and that responsibility quite a bit. And it's one of the main themes of this podcast, as well, is hospitality. And I'm reminded of this story that, some years ago and at the beginning of the war in Syria around 2015, 2016, I heard a rumor that Syrian refugees were hiding in the abandoned houses in my grandparents' villages in northern Greece, right on the border with North Macedonia in the daytime and waiting until night to cross the border, mostly to avoid capture and persecution at the hands of either Greek or Macedonian authorities. And last year I was visiting my grandmother there. She confirmed the story and said that this 85 year old woman, she left her house in the daytime, in the same village, with trays and trays of food and jars of water to offer these travelers before they moved along.Since no name Kitchen relies largely on donations, I'm wondering about this notion of old time hospitality as opposed to the kind of industrial hospitality we hear about or we see in the hotels. One of the themes of this season is also about what kind of old time hospitality still exists in Europe, and I'm wondering what you and your team might have seen in this regard?[00:22:29] Barbara: so, this is a very interesting question because things have changed so much during the years, and basically because the authorities have criminalized so much. The people on the move in general, like being a migrant is like being a criminal according to general speech from the politicians, which comes from the European Union. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, it's being criminalized. The help. Humanitarian help is being criminalized. So imagine for example, I wanna tell you the story in Bosnia, because Bosnia is the project where I spent the most of my time in the last years. When I arrived in Bosnia, in Kladusa, that is in the north of Bosnia near Croatia. It was middle of 2018 and people will be very nice. And then people will be very nice with people on the move. So people on the move did not have a place where to stay cause there was no camp created there. And the mayor of the town say that they can use this field and stay. So there was a field. And then like independent organizations or independent movements like No Name Kitchen or others will be building tents, will be providing blankets and showers and so on, because the institutional organizations were doing pretty much nothing.And at the moment, they were like around 1000 people. There, it was already very difficult to cross and there were already a lot of pushbacks, so it was really difficult to cross. And some people stayed there for two years. So imagine how many wow pushbacks can it be that people can stay there up to two years.And the local people were also very nice. They will go to this camp, which is called... to this field. And will bring food, will bring clothes, will spend their cooking together, time with people because they were, lot of families, a lot of children from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco.And so. So it was actually very nice to see. And also from our side with the local people. Local people really welcome us very nicely, because they knew that we are going there to help and they were actually very worried to see all these people in the move suffering so much. You know, because also, it's very hard for them.You have to understand that in Bosnia was a very bad, cruel war, not so long time ago. Right. When you see yourself, that you need to see how children are walking in the night pretty much cold because they were just pushed back with their families. And then you see people with bruises in their faces and things like that.It is also very hard for the Bosnian people. Mm-hmm. But despite that, they were very welcoming and very nice. When the months start passing, the police start criminalizing the humanitarian aids. So, that means that, for example, there was this family that had some people in the move living in their place for free and then the police put them a fine of like, it was like 1000-2000 thousand Euro, which is lot of money for Bosnian income.Then if you have a bar and people can enter your bar, police will go to disturb you. So then in many bars, it started to be written and which is very sad to say and to imagine, but this happens, "migrants not allowed," in the door. Mm, [00:25:23] Chris: because the local people were also being harassed or under threat as a result.[00:25:28] Barbara: So the police will disturb very much the owners of the bars, right. ...where they welcomed people on the move. And then with the time also, because there are many places that do not accept people on the move. Then if you accept people on the move, many people will be there because there is not so many places anymore where they can spend the day.Like, having a coffee, being a pretty woman. So the criminalization of the people on the move started, like actually when the money from European Union came and then a camp was built, finally. A lot of money came. The institutional organizations obviously took over this money to build the camp, and then this speech started because there were like fights, who is going to manage the camps and so on. Then, for example, as it happens everywhere, because this is not exclusively in Kladusa, as it happens everywhere, whenever there are any elections, migrants are used for getting votes. No. So, for example, in 2020 after the lockdown, which was already a very hard period, there were elections in the north of Bosnia, and then the politicians used the migrants for their speech.And a lot of hate speech was spread. So, and even was local people would organize themselves to go and beat migrants. So, it changed from being super nice to the thought that these people are not good. European Union keeps exposing these people. European Union authorities send a lot of money to the borders to keep these people out of the European Union.So something might be wrong with them. European Union feels with the right to beat these people in their faces. To push them back and also with violence. So maybe these people are not so worth it. So, it's like how all these actions that come from all these European Indian countries are dehumanizing people.In a very bad way. Also, people will complain like, "ah, because the people are not clean," and of course they're not clean because the authorities cut the access to water, so they main access to water so you can have a proper shower was cut for a while. Things like that. So it seems very much from the moment that everybody was super welcoming to the opposite.And this is very much related with the speech that EU sends to the people who are trying to seek asylum. [00:27:33] Chris: Mm. So you think that this change in the way that people perceive these people on the move and the flows of people, it comes from the top down that it's a diffusion of EU based, state-based, language that then gets diffused as it rolls down the pyramid as it makes its way into social media, for example.[00:27:59] Barbara: Yeah, sure. The thing is that if the main authority, the main one is sending millions of euros and they say always, you can listen to Ursula von der Leyen for example, who is the president of the European Commission. She will say like, we're sending money to fight mafias of human trafficking.We're sending money to reinforce the borders, to protect our borders. You need to protect our borders because someone wants to attack the border, right? Mm-hmm. You're getting this work protection, right? Are we protecting from a six year old child from Syria? We're protecting from this actually. So, but when you're using these speech, you're making the people understand that we need to get protected from them.So that means these people are dangerous, right? Mm-hmm. And you're telling this. You're sending millions of euros every year to protect the borders and to fight against human trafficking mafias. This is what they say. It's not me. So, of course, a person who is sitting on her house and knows that some people that in her town, there is 800 people, for example, walking that she doesn't know, she would believe like, "ah, these people are dangerous" because what you, what what this woman who has authorities telling the television openly.Right? [00:29:08] Chris: I had an interview with Fiore Longo, who's a representative of Survival International, one of the oldest NGOs in Europe, in the world. And in that interview, she spoke at length about how the major NGOs in the conservation world, World Wildlife Fund, African Parks, and the rest of them, were essentially collaborating with state governments in Africa in order to push indigenous people off their traditional lands, in order to create national parks or national reserves or ecotourism organizations or companies. And I'm curious within the context of the border crises in Europe, how No Name Kitchen sees these much larger NGOs, the ones that I imagine getting money from governments and also helping to change government policy. [00:30:08] Barbara: We, as No Name Kitchen movement do not get any money from the European Union nor from governments. Why? Because if you as European commission are sending these millions of euros to "protect borders," how they say. To close the borders, while you are allowing the pushbacks because the pushbacks are being denounced.We brought this information to the European Parliament. It is there. It's not a secret. Everybody knows this happening. So, if you ask a European commission are sending all these big amounts of money, but then this European commission is sending also lots of money to these people that are rejected and that are abused at the borders, to create camps for them.Yeah, you can imagine how much this European Commission cares these people and how much nice might be these camps. Those camps are catastrophic, horrible. And many people have a lot of scabies. Many people have diseases from bedbugs and come to us actually to ask for cure because they are ignored.So the big institutional organizations, and I don't gonna say names because I'm talking on behalf of No Name Kitchen are many times inside of these camps and are getting money to manage these camps, which many times are like this. And sometimes there is no bedsheet at all. It's just this old, dirty mattress, what people can find when they entering the camp. And so you are getting these huge millions of money from the European Union and then you are keeping quiet about the abuses at the borders, what is this?Everybody can know which organizations they are because actually information is there. And normally they have these big advertisements showing people also, this is something that makes me very angry, because as I tell you, they are people. They're in different circumstances that we're, right now. They're same like you, and they were in their country, living a normal life until something happen.But they don't like to see themselves in this situation. Imagine that you are like now and then a war starts there, and then you need to see yourself asking for shoes, asking for food. This is catastrophe. This is very complicated. This is really difficult for them. But then they get these advertisements on the TV showing people like, "hi, these poor refugees, they need our help. Look these poor children, how much they need our help." But also you're kinda dehumanizing them a little bit. No, because you're showing them as these poor people that didn't know how to do the things by themselves when actually people on the move, in general, they are the bravest people I have ever met.Cause really this journey is something that you really, really need to be a brave person because the most of people will not do the journey. They stay in a calm area closer to their countries. And then they show them like these poor people, like if they will really not have power to change their situation and it's never like this.But then they make these advertisements, obviously. They not only get money from the European Union, but also from donors that with all their good intention want to support these poor people in their refugee camps. For example, Greece put this rule in 2020. This refugee camp, it was at the detention center, but like really like a jail of maximum security. That you really cannot leave this place. So if there is this government making these rules that against the human rights, keeping people into detention center, that's because you're applying for a asylum.But your asylum is, is being analyzed. Why, EU as an institutional organization are supposed to work for the human rights are supporting this and supporting these decisions from the government and then the government will say, "okay, now this kind of organization cannot be anymore in the camps." Then you don't denounce this publicly. You keep quiet about the situation inside of the camps. So are we really here for the people's rights? Or you're here because of your money.[00:33:37] Chris: Wow. And I'm curious about this notion of open borders in the context of tourism as well. Right. Because tourism operates largely on this notion of open borders. Those who can fly, those who can travel, those who have the right passports can go wherever they want.Although you have to go through customs, you have to go through security when you go to a new country, of course, and usually there's limits on how long you can stay and things like that. Generally, the pro-immigration movements there is also very much this kind of discourse, this fight for open borders in terms of asylum seekers and essentially making it easier to create that kind of hospitality that's needed for people in flight, people in exile.And so I'm curious about the dynamic between the two. Right? In a lot of places in southern Europe especially, you see graffiti that says, "migrants, welcome. Tourists, go home." Right? And so I'm curious what you think of these two major avenues or channels of movement in the world between tourism and then the movement of people in flight or in exile.[00:34:56] Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah, actually tourism is seen as a very positive thing. And then we already know that actually the reason doesn't necessarily need to be positive.It can make very expensive, your city. If we talk about some countries in the world, it can bring you some pedophiles too; misuse and abuse children. You know, like tourism can bring many good things, many bad things, like everything in life. No. Right. We always say that we don't cross borders, borders crossed us, separate us.So in Spain, for example. I say Spain because it's my country and we also operate there. To listen like, "ah, because we need more children because you know, like birth rate is pretty low," and it's true that we are not having so many children anymore. And we young people and then this and that, but then we have all these people who are, have migrated already, who are living in Spain from different countries, and who are young people that will be ready to study and to get education and to start working pretty fast because we are talking about people who are maybe like teenagers. And so, but the system doesn't try to help them. Doesn't really put any effort. You know, in a Spain, there is one term that is "MENA," to speak about people who have migrated, who are children. So, they normally the fastest called the MENA just to dehumanize one person, because you're using just these letters, you know, MENA means like "Menor Extranjera, Non-Acompanado" (Unaccompanied Underage Foreigner). So you're using just this term look out children, you know, so it's a way of criminalizing them and at the same time, there are no proper initiatives to integrate these people to the system, for example. Then at the same time, we have a lot of tourism and now we have this digital nomad visa.Hmm. So look, in order you get the digital nomad visa, you need to have a pretty high income. Yeah. Right. So, that means that actually this, okay, " these people come to my town and then they'll have a lot of money." But yeah, they can make very expensive here your city. I don't know if you've seen both in Libson and in Medellin there is already protest against digital nomads because they're making everything expensive. Also in Medellin, it seems that prositution Increases, so rich people are abusing people who are poor, women, of course, who are poor.And it raise the prostitution according to what I read and what I report because I also write about these kind of things with colleagues that I interviewed. So yeah, I know, like for example, it's not open borders. Open borders. Last year we were telling, that if we will allow the people who are in the Balkans to enter European Union and to ask for asylum, and also we're asking those of Europe to respect their own law.We're not asking for something very big. We're telling them respect your own law and your own international agreements and respect the human rights. Yeah. Which is basic. We always told like if these people who were in the Balkans were not so much, really, not so much would enter, there would not be crisis anymore.All this s**t would not be happening. And last year we could see when Ukrainian war started and selling millions of people who arriving into European Union countries and could get a house very fast. The children could go to study in short time. They could get integrated into the system in very few times.So this means that we are being racist because why we can host, I don't know how many millions of people born in Ukraine and keeping the war in Ukraine and we cannot host some thousand people who come from Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan. This is racism, basically. Mm-hmm. Because in the Balkans, you find families who are three years in the Balkans, who have children. Three years without going to school.People who are getting themselves poor. You know, people when they left, it's not so easy to do this, this trip. It's very expensive. It's very hard. They have a business, for example, in Afghanistan, and then they go threatened by the Talibans or the one that the children are taken by the talibans to fight whatever.And then they say, okay, let's sell our business. Let's sell our house, our lands. They call this money and let's go to search for the future for our family. Then, they see themselves three years and the children don't go to school, that they cannot work, that they spend all their money every day. Cause there is no way to really find a job or get an income.So finally, this is racism. All this difference between a person comes from Ukraine and a person that is coming from Syria. [00:39:20] Chris: Wow. In regards to the relationships that are built between the Kitcheners of No Name Kitchen and the asylum seekers, do any of those friendships end up developing once those people have found a place to settle, a place to stay?[00:39:41] Barbara: Yeah, yeah, of course. It's true that now, it's not so easy to be spend time together because the police is really much disturbing you because you're giving a jacket to someone. So, it doesn't allow you to spend so much time anymore, together. But in general, what we promote in No Name Kitchen and what is very important for us, that we are really together.No, because we are people. All of us, we are people, just in different circumstances. We're actually all of us migrants. Some of them are local people as well, that are supporting us. Cause many local people support our activities. Maybe not always so active because finance is very tired to be every day in your own hometown doing these things.I'm facing all these challenges. For us it's very important to create networks of trust and mutual understanding. So, it's not only you are helping someone. No, no, it is not about this. It's about, you are there, you are learning with a, with a person. We are spending time with a person.It's amazing for me being volunteer with No Name Kitchen is amazing because you can learn so much. You can meet so much amazing people. And I tell you that I'm here with a colleague that she was with me in Bosnia. And then next week, some friends who live in different European countries are gonna come to visit us. One is originally from Syria. The other originally from Pakistan. Mm-hmm. They're gonna come here to visit because now they are already have made their lives. One is living in France. The other is living in the Netherlands. They have their papers, everything, so now they can travel freely around European Union.So this is very, very, very important for us. And actually these networks are very valuable because maybe some person arrives later to some country and then this person has already friends in this country. Mm. [00:41:16] Chris: Right. And in some instances, some of the people do end up returning, or maybe not returning is the right word, but reuniting with No Name Kitchen and other places to help perhaps serve those on the move for a time.[00:41:30] Barbara: Yeah. Like taking papers in Europe, it takes very long, so it's not so easy. And we started only in 2017. So many of the people that we know, they're still on the way to get papers. Really long process. No, but for example, there is this friend of me who is from Iran and I met him in Kladusa, in Bosnia, and now he's living in France.And the other day he wrote me. He was with two colleagues of me that he also met them in Bosnia and he was visiting them and the newborn baby they have been. And he would really like to come to volunteer with No Name Kitchen because now he has documents that he could. But at same time, because of the working conditions finally in this racist work, sometimes cannot be the same for everybody.Right. So he doesn't have the chance to just get one whole month to come. But at some point, yeah, he's thinking about coming. It can be difficult cause then I tell you that police sometimes are chasing people who are not white. So, sometimes it can be difficult, but at the same time. But yeah. Well the idea is like many of our friends now at some point will start not getting, or are getting documents. So, this is a network of people with people and for people. Mm [00:42:31] Chris: mm Amazing. Yeah. It does remind me of the philosophies and practices of mutual aid, (of apoyo mutuo). [00:42:38] Barbara: But it's very important. The other day I was telling to my therapist because I go to the therapy because of the stress.Yeah. So, we're talking about. And last time I was on the field and then she was telling like, yeah, " who helps you when you're helping?" It's like no, you cannot imagine like people on the move have really tried to help you, as well.You know? Like they cannot help us with that distribution. They can help us giving a lot of support. For example, when I was living in Bosnia and I had like a free day, I would go to my friends, to their squats. They had a very warm stove there. And I would be as there, they would cook for me, know, we would be playing board games, we would be laughing and that was my holiday.And for me that was a great moment, where to spend my free day, with them, and they would be taking care of me because they knew I was very stressed and they wanted me to be spoiled one day.[00:43:28] Chris: It's beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah. The kind of hospitality that can arise in times of conflict, right? Mm-hmm. And so in a time of border crises seems to exist in so many parts of the world, so few people at least in my purview or my understanding actually know about these border crises or understand the complexity around them.And so I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for people who are either critical of immigration or people who want to understand the issues more deeply, and of course those who support asylum secrets. [00:44:16] Barbara: Yeah, I mean finally we're in the era of information, right? So if you wanna get information, good information, because you need to identify the misinformation sources.If you wanna get good information, there is a lot. So yes, please get informed and also go with people that have migrating and talk to them. Cause you'll meet them and you'll spend a lot of time with them and then you'll see how are their stories behind. And also, I really recommend people to get more information about this because I cannot believe that in the 21st century we are using the money of our taxes to pay for torture.This is just insane because this is torture, really, what is happening at the borders of the European Union. And I guess many people in European Union countries do not want their taxes to be spent like this. But at the same time, they don't get informed about this. There are so many sources of information. From us in our social media, we keep informing on a daily basis about the different things that are happening always. But in general, there are very good newspapers all over in different languages where you can get good information and also go to people and talk to people. [00:45:21] Chris: Yeah. It's I mean, go to people and talk to the people. The people that you know, you would perhaps not even talk to, just criticize, without having anything to do with.Right. And that most of those people that have an incredible unwillingness, like they're willing to criticize, but they're not willing to go and talk to the people who they're criticizing. Right. And it's really interesting because as you were talking about earlier, you know, Lisbon and Medellin and the backlash against digital nomads and things like that.This is happening as well in Oaxaca although against tourists in general. Some people ask me like, well, what do we do? And, and I say, well, why don't you go talk to the tourists? Ask them why they're here. Ask them what their life is like, because there's this image, this single or singular image of the tourist and it's a caricature, it's a stereotype, and it says that all tourists are exactly the same. They come for the same reasons. They do the same things. And they have nothing to do with us, right? They're totally the opposite of who we are and all of this stuff.And it's very, very similar to the way that people especially people who speak poorly of immigrants or people on the move also view this and just this unwillingness to speak with the other, right. Hmm. So much to consider. My plate is full with all you've offered today. And I'm deeply grateful to have been on the receiving end of your words today. I'm curious, Barbara how might our listeners get involved in No Name Kitchen?How might they find out more and follow your work online. [00:47:05] Barbara: Yeah, welcome everybody. We have Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter. And also now we started some months ago in TikTok. But yeah, we're on social media and also we try very much to always report everything we know, so people on the move know that they can rely on us if they want to denounce something publicly. And here we are for that. Welcome everybody to follow our task and to get to know more about the situation at the borders.[00:47:31] Chris: Thank you so much. On behalf of our listeners, it's been an honor to speak with you and, and to really get a deeper perspective onto these notions of exile and immigration and borders and border crises happening in the world now. So I'm really grateful for your willingness to speak with us today and to be able to add that layer to the conversation. [00:47:53] Barbara: Thanks very much to you for, invite us, for, invite me, for give voice to the situation and everybody welcome to follow what we do.Thank you very much. [00:48:01] Chris: Thank you, Barbara. Take care. [00:48:04] Barbara: Take care. Bye. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

What you'll learn in this episode:   How the artists represented by BABS translate their artistic vision to jewelry Why showing art and jewelry outside of the traditional gallery setting can make it less intimidating for non-collectors Why artist jewelry has yet to catch on with Italian consumers, and how Barbara hopes the industry evolves Why Barbara thinks there should be no division between art and art jewelry, and how she is trying to solve this issue What Barbara looks for in the pieces she selects for her gallery   About Barbara Lo Bianco Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists' jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Website: www.babsartgallery.it Artists Page: https://www.babsartgallery.it/maestri-gioiello-milano/ Barbara's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lo-bianco-a1330a/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babsartgallery/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/babsartgallery.gioiellidartista/ Twitter: @BabsGallery   Transcript   Barbara Lo Bianco's mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she's trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    We've had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor, but her passion has always been in art and jewelry. BABS stands for Beyond Art Before Sculpture. She opened a gallery which showcases artists she knew. They were doing sculpture, but she convinced them to do jewelry. They didn't know their creativity was also in this area until she gave them the space and encouragement to do it. We'll hear all about her art gallery today.   Barbara: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me again.   Sharon: I'm so glad that we connected. Why did you decide to locate in Milan?   Barbara: It's very normal. It's just that I live here. It's the easiest thing. Milan has a long tradition in artist jewelry. Actually, artist jewelry in Italy started in Rome right after World War II, when some of the sculptors were commissioned to do unique pieces in order to recreate an interest in our jewelry, which was not something necessary right after the war, when everything had to be reconstructed again. So, you had to make jewelry that was a little bit different.   Then, in the 60s, it moved to Milan. In Milan, there was GEM by Montebello, who has been the biggest and most famous editor of jewelry by artists in Italy. They worked with more than 50 artists and created more than 200 jewelry pieces. So, there is a tradition, but there had never been a gallery doing that. So, I was in Milan. Why not? Actually, I'm still the only gallery in Italy.   Sharon: In Italy?   Barbara: Yes.   Sharon: I'm thinking about Thereza Pedrosa. She gathers pieces she likes, not pieces that have been commissioned for the gallery.   Barbara: Yeah, this is a little bit different. We don't focus on contemporary; we focus on jewels made by artists, visual artists, painters, sculptors, photographers. We ask them to do a piece of jewelry. We also exhibit some historical pieces, but it's not our major business.   Sharon: I was wondering if you live in Milan. I don't know that much about Italy, but I've heard Milan is the fashion capital.   Barbara: It is. It's so busy.   Sharon: Did you have a reason to start there?   Barbara: It's the most motivational and vibrant city in Italy. It is very European, although in size, it's quite nice. It still has a local atmosphere although it's quite international. The other cities in Italy are more for tourists. This is one is more a business city, and it's more where you do things. It's the most business city we have, but it's nice.   Sharon: I've heard it's an up-and-coming city. It was industrial and now it's really changed.   Barbara: Yes, in the 70s, it used to be a little bit more industrial. Now, it's mainly services.   Sharon: Was that one reason you decided to open in Milan, besides the fact that you lived in Milan? Did you consider other places?   Barbara: No, honestly, I did not. I think it is quite a good location because a lot of the expertise, especially for goldsmiths, is in this area anyway. I would have had to work mostly from here. Plus, it is quite convenient if you do road shows or if you want to do exhibitions. It's very logistically easy. There are some cities in Italy which might be a little bit more artistic, like Florence or Venice or Rome, but I still think working in Milan would be the best place.   Sharon: Did you consider other artists you didn't know, or artists that were in other parts of Italy?   Barbara: Oh, yes. We do work with them. I started with just a few whom I knew. I had been buying their work because I am an art enthusiast. I did buy some pieces of artists I liked. That was just the beginning, but I'm still working and starting to get work from other artists, not only Italians, but also foreigners.    Sharon: Did you find it difficult to start because they didn't know who you were?    Barbara: Yes. I have to say yes, because at the beginning I was totally new and a very young gallery. It was the only gallery doing this in Italy, so it was quite strange to approach an artist and ask, “Excuse me, would you like to do this?” Second, it was because I don't come from the art world. I've not been in the system. My husband is not a collector. He's not a gallerist nor is my family. We've always been very enthusiastic about it, but we're not related to anyone and haven't worked with museums or galleries. So, connections were not that easy at the beginning.    I'm usually a little bit humble, but this time I have to say it because I've been having a lot of appreciation lately. I'm working a lot and trying to work well and consistently, so people are now approaching me, and once I approach them, they're willing to work with me. So, it's getting easier.    Sharon: What did you do during Covid, when nobody would talk to anybody?   Barbara: Well, we needed to work. We worked at trying to build up an archive. We were organizing, taking pictures and trying to exploit social media and what technology gave us. We were quite a young gallery because we opened in the autumn of 2018. After a year and a half, we were already closed for the pandemic, but that gave us some time to slow down a little bit. We had been doing exhibitions every two months, which was a lot. So, we had time to slow down and reorganize the archive, reorganize the website, reorganize the Instagram, and try to understand how all those types of media work, because I had never been using them. I didn't need them in my previous business. So, there was everything to learn.   Sharon: Is this what you focus on mainly, besides the gems? Have you given up the gems? Have you given up the real estate investing? Is this your main business?   Barbara: No, this is my main business. I gave up fitness. I'm still doing real estate and financial investments because that's a family company. I work for them, but that doesn't take too much time. I have to say that the gallery absorbs 90% of my working time.   Sharon: Wow! Do you have people who work for you in the gallery?   Barbara: Yes, I have a couple of assistants.   Sharon: How do you find new artists? Do they submit things to you?   Barbara: Sometimes they submit them. Sometimes I work with curators and consultants. I explore new artists and try to see what's new in this world, plus I go to classes. I'm doing a class with an art historian with a focus on contemporary artists. So, I see the artists I like or artists I might find interesting for what they have to say. I always get inspiration.    Sharon: Is that an official class, or is that something you do because you like to?   Barbara: No, that's just because I like to. At this time in my life, I'm doing things just because I like them. It's always been an interest, so I want to pursue it; I want to do it. I do study a lot of art because that's not my background. My background is in law and then taking classes for an MBA. I've been working in a totally different field, so there's always a need to learn more. Of course, I've grown up surrounded by art, but that's mostly ancient art. That helps you build a critical eye and makes you a little more curious about exploring things, but somehow you have to continue pursuing what you like. So, I do study.   Sharon: Do people send photos to you of things you've never heard of?   Barbara: Yes, artists do propose. There are not that many, I have to say. They propose themselves mostly if they are emerging artists. A lot of contemporary jewelers do promote themselves, but I do not work with them most of the time because that's not my business. That is a very nice type of art, but it's not what I'm focusing on. What I do in the gallery is work with regional artists that usually do not do jewelry. I ask them to create something with their poetic position, with their aesthetic eye, with their meaning, and with the message they usually try to correlate with their art. I propose that they exploit a new medium to convey the same type of art, which is a small sculpture.   Sharon: Do they understand what you're after?   Barbara: Yes.    Sharon: And if you're low on rings or bracelets, let's say, and you need more, you don't tell them that.   Barbara: No, usually not. I ask them to do something and leave them free—at least at the beginning, I let them feel free to explore, to draw, to create a prototype in paper, in concrete, in clay, in wax, in whatever they like. That's a starting point. From that starting point, we start creating things. Maybe we say, “O.K., this one doesn't work as a bracelet, but maybe we can transform it into a necklace or into a pendant,” or “This doesn't work as a ring, but it could be an earring or vice versa.” It depends.    Sharon: Are they open to your changes, if you have changes?   Barbara: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they do not want to change the work, but the work is not wearable, sometimes we discharge that project. We do another thing.   Sharon: If it's not wearable?   Barbara: Yeah, because there are some limitations. If you want to create a ring in gold and in a particular size, but it doesn't fit because it would be way too heavy, then I cannot make it. If you want to make an earring and it weighs too much so that your ear falls down, there is no way we can do an earring. We can do something else, or we can change the material and try to find something lighter. Sometimes they do accept it; sometimes we just don't do that piece.    Sharon: You mentioned that you like the fact that you can show your art and jewelry in different places where you don't usually see it, like a gym.    Barbara: Since I've always been passionate about art, I've always thought people are quite shy about walking into a regular art gallery, especially in Italy. You have some sort of fear. “What if they ask me to buy it and I cannot afford it? What if I don't understand and I ask the wrong question?” Especially with contemporary art, it's always harder to approach it.    I had a chain of very high-end fitness centers. Very nice people were coming to the gym, and they were coming quite often. I had a lot of walls, so I said, “Why not exhibit some young artists or some contemporary artists?” I did, and it was appreciated by other people. They did approach the art and they liked it. Twice a year, I was doing a bigger exhibition with sculptures. For the rest, I was just exhibiting flatworks. It was quite a successful experience for everyone. We had nicer spaces for the clients that were seeing something new, and the artists sold pieces quite a few times. It was a win/win situation.   Sharon: Wow! We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, back to the hospital, so, you were there all day, what do you do? Do you watch TV? I mean, do you play cards?Barbara: Well, at first I was in too much pain to do anything, and, well, after awhile friends came to see me. They brought me books. I read a lot of books. I had my portable CD player and listened to music and I guess the most important part of the hospital routine is when they bring the food around – the meal times, but I couldn't eat.Todd: Oh, no.Barbara: So I could just watch from the sidelines as the other people in my room, were, you know, getting ready for meals, and they would get out their chopsticks and they would be discussing what was on today's menu and, yeah, they really got into it, and I was left out, you know.Todd: That's terrible.Barbara: Not able to eat anything. And there were three old ladies in the same room as me, and they commented on the food that was served up and they often said things like, “Oh, you know, I could cook better than this at home” and “Oh, I don't think this is very good” but… so all of the talks of food just made me salivate, made my stomach constrict, and I was like dreaming about food all the time.Todd: So when you got out and you could actually eat food outside of the hospital for the first time, what's the first thing you had?Barbara: Soba.Todd: Soba.Barbara: Japanese soba noodles.Todd: Well, soba is pretty good.Barbara: Yeah. Yeah. And in a sense, I lost my interest in I guess junk food and high-calorie food.Todd: I guess there's a lesson to be learned.Barbara: Definitely.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Barbara, we're talking about your time in the hospital. You were in the hospital for some time. First of all, how long were you actually in the hospital?Barbara: Well, I was in two hospitals actually. At first, I was in a big hospital for three and a half weeks and I was on a drip for all of that time, and they didn't let me eat anything, and the first couple of days, they also didn't let me drink anything.Todd: Whoa!Barbara: Yeah.Todd: So you were on a drip… I'm sorry, how long?Barbara: Three and a half weeks.Todd: Whoa! No solid food for three and a half weeks.Barbara: No food for three and a half weeks.Todd: Man!Barbara: Yeah, I was dreaming about my mother's cooking, and I was dreaming about roast chicken and roast lamb and man, the smells and the tastes came back to me, but there was no food.Todd: But after like, say two weeks or something, does your body just get used to not having food?Barbara: Yeah. Yes, it does. Definitely. And I lost a lot of weight, but actually, I felt fine. Friends who came to visit me in the hospital were surprised and they were like, “Wow! Where's the rest of you?”Todd: You did lose a lot of weight. Actually, how much weight did you lose?Barbara: I lost, well, I started losing weight because I was changing my diet just before I got ill. In the last eighteen months, I've lost twenty kilos.Todd: Whoa! That's a lot.Barbara: That is, indeed, yeah.Todd: Twenty kilos… Wow! Well, you look great. You must feel great.Barbara: I feel much better. Actually, I think sick with that was probably a good thing. It made me take stock and reevaluate things and get healthy.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Now, Barbara, it's really good to see you. I heard that you were in the hospital.Barbara: Yes, I was. I got sick in August last year and luckily I was with my students and the lady was a nurse. She and her husband drove me to the hospital. I was doubled over. I was clutching my stomach. I had so much pain, a burning sensation in my chest. I didn't know what was happening. They took me to the hospital and they did some tests and they said, “ Well, you have gallstones.”Todd: Gallstones. What exactly are gallstones?Barbara: Well, next to your stomach, there is an organ called the gall bladder and the job of this organ is to hold some liquid which comes out of your liver and this liquid stays in your gallbladder and is saved for when it' needed, and when you eat something that contains fat or oil, the bile from the gallbladder is squirted out and goes into, perhaps your stomach or your intestine. I'm not sure which, and there it does something to help you to cope with the oil. Perhaps it binds with the oil or makes it easier for your body to get rid of it – to eliminate it.Todd: OK, so when you have these gallstones, do they give you medicine? Do they remove them through surgery?Barbara: There are a couple of different things to do. My gallbladder was working too hard because I was eating an unhealthy diet and not exercising enough, so inside my gallbladder, there were too big hard stones. Some people can have surgery to remove them. Some people have laser surgery, where the doctors aim a laser at the stones and shatter them, but the small pieces are still there and they have to be passed out of the body naturally and that is still a problem. With me, my gallbladder was inflamed and they looked at it and said, “No, it has to come out” so they took out the whole thing: the gallbladder and the two stones inside it. So now I have no gallbladder, so if I eat oily food… well, I have no gallbladder to contain the bile from my liver which I need to process the oil.Todd: Right, right.Barbara: So, if I eat anything with oil I feel sick, and I usually… yeah, it's not good. So, I avoid oil, which is healthier anyway.Todd: Well, I'm just glad that you're OK. That sound pretty awful.Barbara: Oh, well, I'm fit now. Yeah, everything's OK.Todd: Oh, good to hear.

What precipitated the Mountain Meadows Massacre?  In my conversation with Barbara Jones Brown, I learned something very interesting. It turns out that Mormons were stealing cattle from California-bound immigrants!  Was this part of Brigham Young's strategy to send a message to Washington that immigration was unsafe?  It seems that Brigham Young was encouraging Mormons (and Indians) to steal immigrant cattle!  Barbara tells about another raid on immigrant cattle at the same time the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbmO9UOf_PI Barbara:  We can't say for sure who did it. We don't know. That's all we have is this account from those immigrants on the northern route. But it takes place on September 8, 1857. They said, "It was clear they did not intend to kill anyone. It was clear they just intended to run off our cattle." That's exactly what happens with this other train. They have their cattle run off. They're strung out on the road and it's in the dark at night-time and they're in a ravine, a large wash. The Moapa Indians, led by five or six Mormon interpreters run off their cattle, and then the train goes on and makes it to California, to San Bernardino. That happens right after this other one. No one is killed. GT: Mormons have a history of cattle rustling it sounds like. Barbara: Well again, this was Brigham Young's strategy. His war strategy was to try and convince the federal government that if the government removed him as Indian Superintendent and Governor of Utah and ran the Mormons out, this is what would happen, that immigration would be no longer safe. GT: This is kind of his strategy, and so he's making it not safe, essentially. Barbara: Yeah. He's encouraging this cattle raiding. In all of the sources in which the cattle raiding is encouraged, you don't see any evidence of any killing to be encouraged at all, just to have the cattle raided. GT: So why do you think the killing happened in Mountain Meadows? Check out our conversation! Brigham Young encouraged Mormons (and Indians) to steal cattle from immigrants crossing through Utah. Don't miss our other episodes with Barbara! 258: Tackling Myths of Mountain Meadows (Jones Brown) 257: Revenge for Haun's Mill & Pratt's Murder? (Jones Brown) 256: Utah War & Mountain Meadows Massacre (Jones Brown)

Barbara and Andrew catch up on their 4th annual check in to discuss the state of the world. They talk about the way death has been a force in Barbara's life. How maybe being real is more important that being upbeat. The role of social media in both their lives. And Andrew's claiming of the term Magnificent Weirdo.  If you missed the previous interviews go check out episodes 44, 58, and 72 first.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Barbara can be found at her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book a reading or private lesson with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast, everybody. I am here today with Barbara Moore, and this is essentially our fourth annual check in and hang out. We started these conversations a number of years back, and just sort of fell into the habit of kind of following up and seeing where life has gotten to and what's going on. And you know, I think it's going to be an interesting episode because we're … For both of us, it's been a year of a lot of change, and, you know, a lot of transformation and [00:00:32] you know, so yeah, let's get to it.  Hey Barbara, what's going on? What's new?  BARBARA: (laughing) What's new … We have just celebrated our one-year anniversary in our new home. It's, like you said, been a year of a lot of change, you said transformation. I don't think that my stuff is actually in the transforming (laughs) [00:01:02] stage yet. It's still in the … Feels like it's still in the breaking down phase. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I really think it would be more the end of the transformation, like the butterfly stage by now, but that has not happened.  ANDREW: Uh-huh.  BARBARA: But I suppose, what's new? The biggest newest thing that's been kind of a theme this year for me has been death. Death has been new to me. I have not had a lot of death in my life. [00:01:34] And so, I've had a lot of it pretty close and intimate, really intimate, this year. In fact, the most intimate … wow, we're going to start right off with the big stuff … the most intimate connection with death on one level, I had just one week ago today. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And that was when …? Okay. So, the … how ... the place we live in is attached to a house on [00:02:04] property owned by a couple named Carol and Noel. I did mention them last year. And, and Noel died on Friday. And this is not unexpected. He was quite old, and was in hospice and dying for quite some time. And Carol knows that I have done a little bit of priestess work, little bit of ritual stuff. And so, the hospice caregiver was preparing Noel's [00:02:34] body. Oh, because they didn't take the body away to a mortuary or anything like that. They kept him at home, and—for a week—and he just went away on Thursday, and so he wasn't going to be embalmed or anything.  And so, the hospice caregiver asked, and Carol asked, if I would help prepare his body, which (laughs) was really freaky for me because I've never done anything [00:03:04] like that. I've never been a good, you know … Some people are good caregivers, you know, like if someone's sick, they're good at taking care of them and comforting and cleaning. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I've never been that. It's just not something that has been a strength for me. And, you know, but part of this whole year is doing things that scare me. And so, yeah, so I helped wash [00:03:34] him, and then we crumbled up lavender into some oil and anointed his whole body, and dressed him, and I … It's been a week and I still, I've told people I can't really talk about it yet, because I haven't fully processed what I think or feel about that situation, and even just talking about it, I can feel the fluttering in my chest, you know, like a sign of anxiety that [00:04:04] I haven't really finished processing that experience. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: But I guess we could say that that's really metaphoric for what this past year has been. I've been getting up close and personal with death in many forms and still sorting out my relationship with it. ANDREW: Death is one of those things that we don't … I mean, I consider [00:04:34] myself a person who's comparatively really comfortable with death. I'm very, you know, close and aware of death. You know, I mean, I've been through a lot of very close loss in my life, you know, my … Two of my brothers passing away, and, you know, the people that I've known passing away, and I think that … Death is always an uncomfortable companion. Even if you are, [00:05:04] relatively speaking, comfortable with it being around, you know, it's always … It's never, it's never entirely settled, and I think that, you know … Like grief, grief is never entirely settled, you know, it might be 20 years and some conjunction of things will kick some little pocket of it back up into the foreground again, you know. So. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah. I think what [00:05:35] has driven me for most of my life is making things, producing things, working, and I think whenever any kind of loss comes to me, into my life, I would just kind of pat it down and run over it and just keep going. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, like it's not affecting me. It happened. It's done, move on, move on, and this [00:06:05] year, the kinds of death have been really much larger, and I've been not working much. I mean, I've been doing my regular work like I explained in the last podcast. I did kind of have the year off, except for, you know, just the basic work, just keep feeding myself, but I've had a lot more downtime and quiet time, and it's almost like I needed training wheels to feel, [00:06:35] cause I'm not, I wasn't used to, what am I feeling? Even just even letting the feeling come to the surface, and then the next step, identifying it, and what you do with it, and how does it fit in with where you want to go with your life, or whatever, and cause I don't even know what order I should tell all the stories. But just this example of feeling the feelings associated with death, just met ... [00:07:05] my father also died. He died in September, and I just started … just like last night, actually. I started feeling the feelings of grief, you know, like, oh my God, I miss him so much, and you know, so it's been almost two months, and I … And it's just happening now, you know.  And my beloved [00:07:35] companion Whiskey, my golden retriever, died in June and I wasn't home to say goodbye to her. I was in Minnesota at the time. And you know, it took like a couple months for those feelings to come up. So, you know, I feel like even though I'm into my 50s, I have had little practice with this compared to most people my age. So, it has been real interesting.  Oh, and that [00:08:05] reminds me too, right before I moved, my friend Nancy and I were messing around with our cards and stuff, and she's like, “Well, let's pull a card and see, you know, what big theme you can expect from this move.” And she pulled the Death card, of course, and was like, “Oh, wow, this is going to change your life in more ways than you think!” And she pulled another card. And it was the Emperor. And she's like, you know, because I'm a very structured person, a very organized person. She's like, “It's going to really blow that part of you [00:08:35] to bits.” But what she couldn't have known, and of course hindsight is, you know … The Emperor, for a lot of people, is associated with a father figure, you know, so it's like “your father will die.” Okay, but again, it's all metaphor, and it's all tied together, and bigger themes, and then I was writing to one of my pen friends and I was giving her my new P.O. box number and she's like, “Oh, your P.O. box numbers add up to 13. It's a Death year for you.” I went, “Oh, wow. Okay.” So, [00:09:05] yeah.  ANDREW: Do you, do you follow the year card system? Are you ... For, you know, birth cards and year cards? Is that a thing for you?  BARBARA: I do ... My birth cards and the year cards, I don't, I do some years, and some years I don't. And I don't even know if I know what mine was. I didn't think I needed another one. Okay, I think I'll just ... The Death card wants to be my card this year. I think we'll just go with it. Of course, knowing ... You know, when you don't have a real [00:09:35] experience with it, it can feel like, “Ooh, it's exciting, things are going to change,” because in the past, in my life, when things have changed, it's always been like, good, and pretty easy, and exciting, and not involving all of this that we're having here. Yeah.  ANDREW: Well, you know, I think that death, death, death on all those levels is always such a complicated [00:10:07] companion, right? You know? I mean, coming to the endings of things is, you know, in some ways, a relief, especially for Noel. Right? I mean that's a, that's a relief, right? of that sort of, you know, slow movement across that line, you know? But the kind of change that it tends to bring isn't really, you know, it … Even if it's sudden, even if the change is sudden, [00:10:37] the energy of it sort of lingers, right? You know, like Crowley talks about the Death card as sort of … Sometimes it's the fall of the scythe and sometimes it's this, like, putrefaction, this slow breaking down and rotting of things, right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: And hang out and sort of watch elements of yourself or your life kind of decompose, right? Like we were talking about before we got on the line today, you know? It's like that black [00:11:07] phase, that nigredo phase, in alchemy, right? Where, you know, everything just starts to like, break down, and it's, you know, that's the long dark night of the soul time, right? Where all of a sudden, you're like, “I don't know where anything was going. I don't know what any of this means anymore. Does any of this matter?” Right?  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. The “does any of this matter?” has been a really strong push, or no, it's been a strong question in me this [00:11:37] year. You know, whenever I think of doing something or ... maybe I should take up a project, maybe I should get back to work, maybe I should do something, and like what, what's worth … What does it matter? ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And I really truly hope I don't stay in this space for much longer because it is not comfortable. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember when … In the months after my brothers died. And for those who don't know, two of my brothers passed [00:12:07] within six weeks of each other, it's about nine years ago now, and so it was … It was really intense the first time, and then it was just, double down, you know, sort of six weeks later. And you know, like, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Trying to, you know, like underst-, what does any of it even mean any more after this kind of situation? And all those kinds of questions. [00:12:37] And the thing I kind of kept coming back to was, Well, I've got to do something with my time regardless. So, what is it I want to do? (laughing) What is it ... Like, is it just eat a bucket of ice cream? That's fine too. Right? Is it, you know, something else? What is it? Cause I've got to do something with my time other than just sit and wonder if any of it means anything, you know? You know? You know? And so, that kind of ultimately, you [00:13:08] know, led me, led me out of most of it, you know, and back into sort of being in the world and being engaged in things, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, hopefully that will start happening with me. I have spent my fair share of time just laying on the bed, you know, being all angsty and eating ice cream and whatnot. [00:13:38] But I've also done, you know, I've been reading more fiction, nothing that's, you know, enlightening my mind or anything, and painting nothing worth showing anybody. I have stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff that is completely pointless, and I'm like, why am I doing this? It's the only thing I feel like doing so I'm doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: It feels really [00:14:08] indulgent in a weird way.  ANDREW: But isn't that part of what life is about? Like, I think that life as opposed to death is about indulgence, right? BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: No, maybe I'm too Sagittarian and too Jupitarian in that regard. But, you know, I think that life really is about indulging those things and you know, somewhat like the Fool, right? If we indulge those things, whatever meaning [00:14:38] there is will emerge over time. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, as opposed to this idea that I think that we often have that we can determine what the meaning is and then, you know, set on a course of embodying that. You know, I mean, it's like a thing that I think I said to you a long time ago, right? Like, you know, the road knows what star is yours, but you can't figure it out before you leave the house, right? You know? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Yeah.   BARBARA: Yeah. That's so contrary to the way I've lived [00:15:08] my life, and, as you're speaking those words again, I can feel the truth and beauty in them; at the same time, I feel part of myself resisting. ANDREW: Sure.  BARBARA: So. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, it is definitely the black phase of alchemy, man. This breaking down, this breaking down, like when I left social media, a lot of it was fueled by, I was shaping my self-image based [00:15:38] on how people on social media saw me or responded to me. And so, I wanted to not let that be driving how I was shaping myself. But, and so, taking that away, what's left? What's take what shaping myself is my work? It's always been my work. What am I doing? What am I putting out there? How much am I teaching, how many books am I publishing, how many decks am I creating, what am I doing? And [00:16:08] like you said, we can't always set the outcome and move toward it and embody it and manifest it. Sometimes it's just all something my friend Ricardo says, similar to what you said, is, you can't see the path in the woods until you're in the woods, you know? It's dark and you can't see it until you're there. And yeah, so, you know, what are all the [00:16:38] paintings? They're mostly portraits of strangers, people I don't know ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, just like stock images or, you know there are these sites that, where people post pictures for artists to use as reference ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And it's all I'm doing is painting these strangers. It's just very weird. ANDREW: Well, I think that's really interesting, cause you never really know what's gonna come back around. I have this painting on the wall in the shop that I did. [00:17:09] I don't even know how long ago. It has no date on it. Seven or eight years ago maybe? And it's of a ... it's of a red-wing blackbird. And you know, I I've been thinking about making art again and showing art. I was in a show recently and sort of thinking about sort of the idea of not just making sort of decks and stuff like that. I mean still making those things as well, but also making [00:17:39] art for the sake of making art to show and share, you know, and ... And I was looking at this painting which has been, you know, in my reading room the whole time since I made it, so for a long time now. And I was like ... And I was talking to an artist and talking about how inspired I was by Basquiat and their really large works that they painted. You know, [00:18:09] they had a showing here in Toronto awhile back and some of the paintings are like six-foot square and stuff like that. And I'm feeling this urge to work big, I'm like, but I don't really have space to work big, you know, all the excuses come in, and then like I was looking at this painting of a bird and I was thinking, and then immediately I was like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to photograph that, I'm going to blow it up, and then I'm going to paint on top of it and make it into a new painting through that process. And so, I [00:18:39] just got the prints, so they're two by two by three feet big, as opposed to like, five by eight or something like that, which the small thing is originally, and I'm going to mount it to some kind of board and then I'm going to start reworking on top of it, stuff like that. So, you just never know what comes back around, you know, like those strangers may emerge in some really new way or lead to something else, you know?  BARBARA: Are you going to use acrylics on top of that, or ... ? ANDREW: [00:19:10] I'm going to ... I'm going to use ... I have these acrylic markers. So, I'm going to use those. And I'm going to use ink, so I'm going to like go in and I want to do a mix of big scale stuff on it and really really super intimate things, like, you know, like the branch at the bird is sitting on because [00:19:40] it was painted small is essentially just a few very simple strokes of simple colors, right? But I'm going to go in embellish that, and then I'm going to go in and work with some varnish and stuff. So, some stuff will be really varnished and shiny from certain angles, and like I have a bunch of ideas about it. And then I feel like I can also feel there's some other birds like, “Hey, do me next. Do me next!” BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: So, you know, I feel like it's going to become a body of something, right? [00:20:10] But what that is, I don't really know, but you know, they've always been my companions, right? You know, I mean, I have this habit of I just go and follow the birds through the woods until they stop and then I realize where I need to be and stop and hang out with the Earth and that place and things like that, right? So, I have a very like strong connection to them. So, yeah. BARBARA: God, I can't wait to see. It sounds like it's going to be really really cool. I'm feeling excited for the process for you just hearing about it. ANDREW: Yeah. It's been [00:20:45] a long time since I ... since I had a sir purely process-driven thing and it's been a long time since I made ... Like I'm not even sure the last time I made a piece of art that wasn't for a deck, you know girls. It's been quite some time since I've since I did that. So. Yeah. Yeah.  BARBARA: I was just thinking, you know, we kind of led with the heavy stuff, which seems natural, it's been on my mind, [00:21:15] but I wonder maybe it wouldn't be nice to have a little interlude of a few happy or positive things that have already been kind of coming out of the ashes.  ANDREW: Yeah! BARBARA: Just so people don't get too depressed and quit listening. (laughs) But, you know, one of the things is ... I have two examples I'd love to share. The first is regarding my father's death. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, my father. He had [00:21:45] five kids: me and two sisters from my mom, and then my sister and brother from my stepmother. So there's five of us. And out of the five of us, three of us are really close, me and two of my sisters, and then the other two live in Michigan still and not quite as close. And one of the things my dad always said was he wished that we were all closer. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: That was super important to him and [00:22:15] he ... When things started getting bad for him in July, my siblings and I started a sibling text chain just so we could ... and just so we could keep up on stuff .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And all be fully informed. And throughout the process between July and October, that ... the time when he was like actively dying and in hospice and then planning the funeral and whatnot, my siblings and I worked [00:22:46] together, not like a well-oiled machine cause that sounds so cold, but like a bunch of dancers who know their steps and that complement each other. And so that was just really super amazing. And then when the funeral, which was in Michigan, all my siblings were already there and I was flying in, like the day before, and so I get to the Detroit airport and my [00:23:16] siblings text me and they're like, we're all here. Like, so it was just us five siblings, without spouses, without kids, without anything, just the five of us and I don't remember the last time the five of us were alone together and all in one place. So we stopped for a drink on the way home, and just you know, toasting dad and sharing stories, sharing intimate moments that we had with our dad that we'd never told anyone before .... ANDREW: Right. BARBARA:  You know and just got really really [00:23:46] close. And in that weekend of the funeral, it was like my dad's last gift to us. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: He made a situation where we all fell in love with each other. ANDREW: That's wonderful. BARBARA: It really, it really is wonderful. And you know, so I'm so grateful for that because we still have that text chain going and you know, at least once a week we're, you know, sharing things about our lives and you know, encouraging each other, so that was super awesome. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And [00:24:18] a real blessing. Then the other was, it's a little bit still close, but it was still like such a remarkable experience, was you know, like I said, Noel died. And so we kept him at home and people would come, you know, to just sit with him and be with people, you know, kind of like a wake kind of thing.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Oh, oh, but I do need to tell you this little local flavor thing, you know cause I do live here in this little tiny valley [00:24:48] and the technology is pretty sketchy. And you know, there's no like Potter Valley Facebook group or anything where people share what's going on. They do it the old-fashioned way. Like when the fires were happening this summer, there's this one kind of a park area where everyone who comes in and out of the valley drives past, and they had a big like a sandwich board sign where they had updates on the fire and a map of the evacuation areas and [00:25:18] stuff. You know, and that's how people found out stuff.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And so, for Noel's funeral, we wanted--or whatever. It wasn't really a funeral, we'll call it a funeral. We wanted to let people know, and so, Dylan and I made, you know, two really big cardboard signs saying, just saying, that Noel passed away. Community visiting at his home and the hours and hung one up at the corner store [00:25:48] and one on the corner of the street where we live. And that's how we communicated the information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And one time, you know, we were walking, Dylan and I were out walking out to visit the Pigs who live on the corner where the sign was, and you know a man was driving up the mountain. He stops and he's like, “Oh so, you know, Noel died.” Yeah, yeah, you know, just people talk more, it's more face-to-face or, very old school.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Well anyways, back [00:26:18] to the cool part was: when you're getting cremated, apparently, they give you this cardboard box that's, you know, you put the body in and so we left it out in a large area of the house with a bunch of art supplies and people decorated it.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: You know, so he ... By the time it was done, it was just like covered in pictures and symbols and Sufi prayers and all kinds of other prayers and blessings [00:26:48] and gratitude and things for him. So, you know, he was sent off to his, you know, final physical whatever before he got cremated in this, not a beautiful wooden brass box, but this cardboard, little, holy, humble, cardboard box decorated with all this love and amazement. It was just really different than anything I'd ever experienced before and just how loved he was by the community and it [00:27:19] was just a really really awesome experience. It's amazing.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Okay, happy interlude's done.  ANDREW: Happy interlude's done! (laughing) ANDREW: You know, I mean I guess, I think that there's something that I'm curious about. Now you're talking about social media again, right? You know? And like, are you going to go back? Do you ... is there anything [00:27:49] that you need from it? If you go back, how does it ... how does it impact your way of formulating your identity, you know and like those kinds of things? And I'm really, I'm really interested in this right now because .... Because in some ways, I feel like, you know, not, not recently but sort of historically, I've been somewhat absent from my social [00:28:19] media. You know, my social media has always been about the work or the things versus about me as a person. You know? And, not entirely but I mean, the podcast is definitely the place where, you know, I'm more visible, you know, or I'm more audible, I guess, as the case may be. And, you know, and I've been consciously changing that over the last while. You know? And changed [00:28:50] in part because of some conversations I had with, you know, Carrie and a few other people about stuff.  But mostly they're changing because I had this dream ... I often have dreams with Andy Warhol in them. And you know, he often comes to give me advice and tell me about stuff, and in some ways, my return to making art is also at his prompting. And the first dream that I [00:29:20] had, I was hanging out with Andy at his famous warehouse, you know, and we were there talking about making art and being seen and all of this kind of stuff. And he kind of like, we were talking, like, and he just stopped the conversation at one point in the middle of like something else, and he goes, “Andrew, you don't understand, you're a magnificent weirdo, and the world needs that right now. The world needs you to show everybody [00:29:50] your magnificent weirdness because that's what they're, what's important, and that's what's going to, you know, be significant about your work and your art and all of these things.” And I was like, in the dream I was like, “All right, Andy, I can do that. No problem,” right? And then we went on to talk about making art and other things and so on, right? And before we went on, though, he also turned around and sort of announced loudly to everyone's faces, you know, “Andrew's a magnificent weirdo, and you all should be paying attention to what he's doing,” right? [00:30:20] Something like that. And so, I've been thinking about Andy Warhol, and thinking about social media, and thinking about all of these kinds of things, and really endeavoring to sort of engage it on my own terms, you know, and really sort of share what I think is important or helpful. Helpful—helpful's the wrong word for it. Cause I'm not so interested in what's helpful. But share what [00:30:50] feels really real and what feels really particular to me, you know? And you know, I made this shirt up, that I started wearing around, that says “magnificent weirdo” on it.  BARBARA: Aw! ANDREW: Which I find particularly amusing. You know, it's kind of my talismanic t-shirt, so.  BARBARA: Oh! I love that! You ARE a magnificent weirdo. That's ... How wonderful to have Andy Warhol as your advisor and, well, maybe not muse, but your advisor ... (laughs) ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. [00:31:21] Does that mean you're starting to engage your social media more as ... more personally, then?  ANDREW: Yeah, definitely more personally. Definitely, I'm showing up there more. I'm sharing more of my life, you know, definitely, it's definitely a thing that's sort of continuing to emerge, you know, and especially as I'm getting into making art, like I don't know what these bird things are going to be, but I'm going [00:31:51] to share that process and journey along the way, you know. And, yeah, sharing more of my personal story and that kind of stuff. So, whereas in the past, I would sort of have tended to just leave stuff alone until it felt resolved and then share the resolved story of it, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I've always ... I haven't always successfully done but I've always tried. Like, I knew [00:32:21] this one teacher who was talking about, you know, public speaking, and writing, and you know, you and your audience and he said, “Don't work your shit out in front of your audience.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And you know, so I've always tried to not do that. You know, like these people aren't here to be my therapy session. They're here to learn what I learned, you know to get something helpful but--to use your word--but maybe [00:32:51] that's not the only way to think about sharing. Maybe the only purpose of sharing isn't only what you may deem as helpful or a nice clean process or technique that you can also use to change your life or fix your life or improve your life. Just sharing your unique and awesome weirdness might have value. I don't ... How would you say that? Because you said not [00:33:21] necessarily be helpful, cause you're not interested in that. So, what is the effect, then?  ANDREW: So, I mean, for me the effect is ... and you know, I think it'll be interesting what comes back for people who listen to this episode, right? You know, I think that what happens is there's this notion that people who are in positions like we're in, right? You know, like working as a [00:33:51] card reader, having a degree of success, having published and done other things, right? That somehow, we've all got our shit together and we don't struggle and nothing's difficult, you know, and I think that you know, sort of, “Wow, you know, I mean, Barbara Moore didn't just bounce right back after the death of her dad, I guess I can cut myself some slack.” Or, you know, look at that, we're all human, or you know, like these kinds of things, I think that that's [00:34:21] that that's part of it. And I also think that, particularly in the magnificent weirdo case, you know, I mean I was ... I hadn't realized that I used this phrase until someone started mirroring it back to me every time I used it, which is, you know, I would say, “Well, it's funny being me sometimes,” and then I would like say something [00:34:51] that was like, really really different about my life compared to many people's lives, right? And you know, and they were .... this person was always amused by it. But I started to realize that like, my, I don't see my life as a role model at all, but my life is super radically different than so many people's. You know? I mean, you know, we talked a little bit about but, before about this, I've mentioned before in the podcast, [00:35:21] I'm getting divorced right now, right? You know. Myself and Hanlon sort of both realized that you know, after quite a stretch of time, we've come to this place where what we want and who we've become is just different, you know? We really, you know, have a very different ... We have different goals and they don't really line up in ways that don't start to kind of curtail each other's possibilities, [00:35:51] right? Which is something that neither of us is really wanting to happen, right? You know. So, you know, so this year has been, has been, really, like the last six months has been working through that process and so on, right?  But, you know, I mean, I'm ... I've been in a non-monogamous relationship for, you know, the last three and a half, four years or something. And, you know, [00:36:21] before we had kids, almost the whole time of our relationship before that. So, I'm not ending this relationship and then figuring out who am I and how do I start dating again and you know, all of these kinds of things. You know, I mean, I have a relationship with, you know, this person, Sarah, who I've been seeing for two-and-a-half years, and there are other dates that I've gone on and other connections and so on. So, even just that: it's such a [00:36:51] different perspective than almost anybody that I know in that regard. Right? And doing what I do for a living, and you know, my religious practices, and like so many of the things that I do are just so radically different and, not that that is either a role model or the way in which people should see things or whatever, but I find that as I share those things, it's ... It [00:37:21] opens up people's ideas and sort of gives them permission to be like, huh? Well, what would I like to do that's maybe not the thing that's done. Or what would, you know, am I interested in these sort of ideas that I've been living? Do they serve me anymore? You know? Or maybe I've always wanted to be more this way or that way or whatever and so sort of seeing those things happen in other people's lives, you [00:37:51] know, to get ... It's a, it's a chance to inspire people not to be like me, but to be like themselves, right? So, yeah and again, not in a like, “I've got it figured out in this and that whatever way, cause it's not like that at all, right? But in a like, huh, you know, hang out with me as an invitation to be fully yourself, right? You know. [00:38:21] And for a lot of people, you know, that's not necessarily something that they get a lot of invitation to, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah! Right. Probably not nearly enough people get that invitation. There's so many other forces helping tell us who we should be and how to live. ANDREW: Right? Yeah. And internalized forces too, right? Like even if, even if they're not around us now, you know, those older voices, they can still kick around, right?  BARBARA: Oh, [00:38:51] and maybe even like instinctual survival impulses, you know, like to survive in the world you have to be successful and you have to be this .... ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, and so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot trying to box us in and very little inviting us out. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: But then we have an awesome weirdo to help us! ANDREW: (laughing) Yeah. BARBARA: (laughing) Yeah, I definitely get and [00:39:21] appreciate the value of that approach, and its budding up against one of my older, and perhaps, just society's older idea. You know, if someone's going to write a book or teach, you expect them, or this used to be true, or maybe it was just true for me and people like me, you expect them to be masters of what they're teaching. And therefore, we get all worked out and you [00:39:52] know, when a book comes out or a kit or a deck comes out, it's usually a really happy excited moment, like, “Oh, my thing has hit the world and it's out there.” And I didn't really have that same experience with one of my recent books, The Modern Guide to Energy Clearing? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Because, you know, I wrote the book based on my experiences. And now I'm, [00:40:22] this past year, I've been in a place where, I feel like, if I would have practiced everything I preached in that book, I'd be way further along than I am now, in terms of adjusting, and I don't know, not being in this black alchemical place. But it made me shy, maybe a little embarrassed, to go .... because there were a lot of publicity opportunities, unlike all my tarot stuff, [00:40:52] which there's hardly any, with this book there were invitations to radio shows and bookstores and all kinds of things, and I didn't do all of them. I did some of them because I felt like I owed it to the book and to my publisher. And you know, you have a responsibility when you're partnering with a publisher. It's not just your thing. It's their investment as well. And I think part of what made me really shy about it is cause I was in the midst of [00:41:23] “You guys, I have these tools, these techniques, these skills, this knowledge and I am too--I am too raw to do 'em.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And, it just felt almost hypocritical, and perhaps there needs to be another book, or maybe just an article that explains when you're doing energy work, sometimes you have to just let things sit and decompose and [00:41:53] you don't always get to control how fast that happens. So, yeah. ANDREW: I think that this idea of the ... like the wise teacher who's got their, all their stuff together. I think it's really a problem. I think it's really dishonest and [00:42:23] I think that it's why .... I think that it's one of the forces that allows so many problematic things to exist in a variety of communities, right? I think that it's one of the things that you know, at it ... at one of its worsts, right? encourages, you know, stuff that we could, you know, that the me too movement seeks to address, right? Because the perception is that these teachers [00:42:53] or leaders or community people or whatever, you know, in the spiritual communities have their stuff so together, right? And how could they not? And therefore this other person must be the problem? You know. I think it's one of the mechanisms which that happens under. And I think that ... I think that it sort of comes out of the sort of ... Well, I mean, I don't know where it originates from, but like in the ceremonial stuff in the more hierarchical [00:43:23] and initiatory things that I used to be involved in, in those ways. There was this notion that somehow, we would become perfect. Right? We would become enlightened. We would achieve these things. You know, but like, you know, my elders in, you know, in the Lukumí tradition, they're always like, “I'm just a person doing things. I'm doing my best, but like, I'm not perfect.” And there's no expectation to be perfect. [00:43:53] There's an expectation to cultivate character, to work on yourself, to you know, to grow, to be honest, and you know, and ideally to sort of continually seek out those things in yourself that you might need to work on in one way or another. But there's no expectation to sort of necessarily be perfect or, you know, be free of humanness, because it's not about transcendence, it's about living in this world, right? [00:44:23]  And I think that a lot of the, you know, especially the stuff that people might refer to as sort of the love and light movement, you know? It's so ... there's so much emphasis on sort of transcendence and so on that, you know, that we continually hear about these people whose humanness re-emerges or finally is seen in a certain way. And then ... and then what does that mean for those people, you know? From my point of view, It doesn't mean anything. Just like you being raw, of [00:44:53] course you're raw after all of these losses, right? Of course you are. Because you know, we shouldn't deny the reality or the shadow or you know, our suffering, because life is hard, but we can work at handling it easier, better, more consciously. You know? Maybe more consciously is the best way to frame it, but that doesn't mean that we're suddenly able to do everything, you know? I mean, I keep joking--and maybe it's not even a joke anymore, [00:45:23] maybe it's just a statement of what's going to happen. You know when the separation happens and we both have our own places and whatever. I'm like, I'm just gonna sleep for a week. It's going to  be like, the first week I'm just gonna be like, okay, shut everything off and just stay in bed and order pizzas and, you know, nap a lot and watch Netflix, cause, you know, I need some like nothing time. I need some recharging after all this work, you know? And I think that, you know, that's valid. [00:45:53] You know? That's not anti-spiritual. You know? Oh well. I feel like I'm ranting now so I'll stop. BARBARA: Yeah, no, you're preaching, preach it, brother! (laughing) I'm ... Congregation of one, right here!  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, no, it reminds me of a funny thing my ... one of my sisters would always say to me. Well, not always, it's happened a couple of times when I have like very obviously and [00:46:23] clearly fallen short of my own ideals and I'm all upset about it. And she's like, “I love it when this happens to you.” “What do you mean?” “Because you seem more human to me in these moments.” And this is my sister, you know, and I don't want any walls between her and I and I don't want to be on a higher place or on some transcendent plane or whatever. I [00:46:53] want to be with her. And so, when I screw up, that's when I'm with her more, at least on some level.  ANDREW: Yeah for sure. Well, it's, you know ... I've been doing ... For the last few years, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing. And you know, I've been sort of ramping back into it after being injured doing something else earlier in the year and climbing with some old friends, but some new climbing partners. And [00:47:23] the one, the guy was like, “It makes me so happy when I see you struggle on the wall. I'm sorry, but like usually you're just so graceful about it that I feel like it just looks so easy to you, and even though you come down and I can see that you're like panting cause it was so hard, you made it look so easy that it just makes me feel bad about myself. So, when you struggle it makes me feel better about myself!” And I'm like, that's fine. That's fair too. Right? Like, you know. I think that that's, that's part of it, right? [00:47:53] You know, when we get to see other people's humanity, then we get to see and make space for our own, in one way or another, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said the idea of the wise old teacher has some inherent problem. And maybe people in general, or maybe a new idea of the archetypal teacher is starting to emerge, or maybe a new facet of it, as we're starting [00:48:23] to explore, you know, or maybe things will change, maybe we'll expect different things from our teachers.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that what I expect of my teachers are really kind of two things. You know, you used the word mastery earlier, right? And I think that certainly knowledge, right? You know, I mean, I expect them to really deeply know what they're, like, I'm there to learn knowledge from [00:48:53] them. And, so that's one part of it. And then the other part is, you know, is like honest relationships, you know? And having honest relationships debate what's going on and what's going on with them and space for me to be honest about what's going on for me and so on. You know, I think that those things together are what I really expect, you know, and like, you know, it's I've had the chance to meet a lot [00:49:23] of people who, you know, in one way or other, people would see as sort of wise masters or whatever, you know? And they're lovely human beings, and they're still human beings. You know? And I think that that's never not going to be the case, right? You know? Yeah. BARBARA: Well, I told you earlier one of the things that I ... the only thing I did really to prepare for today's conversation was to [00:49:53] relisten to last year's podcast.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And, you were just ... sounded like you were just starting to explore something kind of new and interesting that I was excited to hear more about and now I'd love to hear more about the work with meteorites and moldavite.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that ... I think in some ways that [00:50:23] work was precipitation of the separation and divorce stuff, right? You know? I mean, I think that the idea of ... I mean, you know, it certainly wasn't consciously formulated, but, you know, the sort of idea of possibly, you know, I mean, the metaphor that I was working with of was like the idea of moving to [00:50:53] a bigger space, right? Leaving the planet and being an interstellar traveler and sort of engaging a bigger world, a variety of planets, you know, like this kind of idea, right? And I think that one of the things that that energy supported me through was and is through the idea of separating from my partner of 21 years, so that's definitely been a part of it.  I [00:51:23] also feel like this one's harder to talk about it because I feel like it's still underway, but I feel like the shop that I have, my work as a deck creator and author, and my work magically have all been sort of escalating into new places. And I feel like, [00:51:53] especially sort of going into next year, I'm going to be really living a completely different reality. And I imagine there's going to be a lot more space for my spiritual stuff in that newer reality. So, I think that that's a part of what's come of that transition.  And also, I think the other thing that I've sort of ... I'm [00:52:23] still working on sorting it out on a practical level, but there's this ... There's this software company, or company that makes a software called Basecamp, and they structure their company work around these eight-week cycles. So basically, they, one of the things that I heard about what they do is that they have a six-week [00:52:53] work cycle, one week of cleanup and planning the next work cycle, and then they take a week off. And I've been really sort of starting to think about how do I, in order to make the arts and the magic and the other things that I would want to be doing and feel called to be doing, I need more space, right? I need more time. And you know, so I've been, I also [00:53:23] feel like that changing notion of what my space and time is going to look like is also kind of come out of that work, right? This idea that I can be somehow in between things. You know? Now's the time where I'm on Mars doing Mars things, and now I'm back floating in the space of my in-between time, doing whatever that is, and then go back to the next place, and you know, and the metaphor doesn't entirely hold but I think the idea, you know, makes [00:53:53] sense, right? That, so it's really ... It's about allowing. Allowing for the space and letting go of all those sort of structures and ideas that sort of hinder that possibility and making space for that to happen, you know? And I mean, I'm not sure how long it's going to take for me to completely reorganize my life and work and other things into that, into that direction. You know, it might take another year or whatever. But it doesn't really matter. But I feel [00:54:23] like all of those pieces kind of come out of, come out of that work that started with the meteorites, you know, a year or so ago. BARBARA: Cool, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: Yeah, it's a work of shedding and becoming, right? You know, and I don't think that I was aware of the shedding of house. I was aware of the shedding at a sort of big picture level, but I wasn't aware of it as a sort of more personal [00:54:53] level when I started that. So, yeah. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, are you ... Do you think you're gonna find your way back to the to the wider world or do you think that you're ... I feel like you've been on a hermitage in the valley in the mountains. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, do you feel like that's something that's just going to continue? Or do you feel like it's time to shift that? BARBARA: That is a really good question, [00:55:23] really pertinent question at this point. I have just been starting to have, like, actual feelings about wanting to come out of my hermitage. It's super hard to do that cause it's my natural inclination. It's where I would be, always, if people who loved me weren't concerned about my mental and emotional health (laughs), but [00:55:55] living here, but like I said, it's so old school that it really feeds that. Like when I was in the cities and when I was involved in the wider world, it ... sometimes it felt like if it isn't seen by people on the Internet, it isn't real? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I'm sure that's just a me thing. I don't think it's like everybody has that feeling, but it was definitely affecting me like that. But there are, like there's [00:56:25] a women's circle here that meets every couple of weeks. It's, you know, not set, exactly, it's probably two or three weeks. And it's just some women who get together and just talk. And sometimes it's just casual talk, like book club level talk. And sometimes it's super deep. Then sometimes it's spiritual, sometimes it's scientific, and it's really great, but it's very small and it's just the valley, and it's not posted anywhere, and no one knows about it. It's not like [00:56:55] putting transcripts out for ... You know, it's not out there, it's just in, and like I said, just the cardboard signs, it's just all small and hidden away, kind of, and I really, it feels really safe, it feels really nice, it feels really authentic. It feels good to me. But, just over the past week or so, I have been like, I want to get out. I want to take a class. I want to [00:57:25] do something. But then I second-guess myself cause one of the things when I was in the midst of stuff this year, I kept wanting to sign up for a class or do this or do that and Dylan's like, “You know, you do have this tendency that whenever you're avoiding dealing with something, you want to take a class.” (laughs) You know, and ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Oh, okay, that makes sense. So now I'm in this space where I'm feeling this urge. Like I don't really know exactly what I want to do, but I want to get out of here. I want to have some [00:57:55] some regular contact with the outside world in some way. And I'm like, oh, does this mean I'm, you know, coming up against my emotions about my dad and haven't dealt with them yet and I'm trying to avoid that? So, yeah, I am feeling it. Yes. I think it's going to happen. I'm not exactly sure when or how it's going to happen. Earlier you had mentioned when you said you were gonna interview me and some people said to say hi and whatnot. It [00:58:25] make my heart really happy and also a little sad and very emotional. Many feelings were happening and it was like well, maybe I could be back on Facebook, and maybe I could just post about my life like I used to, and maybe that's okay. And I hadn't really been this close to thinking that in a couple of years. So.  And as far as like work, I mean I have still worked. Even though I said I [00:58:55] had the year off, I have written two books and designed a deck. So, it's not like I haven't been doing stuff to put out there, but I haven't been super publicity-oriented. I haven't been teaching. I've had invitations to workshops and to teach classes, which is more public, more connected with the world, and I keep turning them down. I still think I'm not interested in that. I think I did that a lot because it was expected. It was a natural part of this [00:59:25] work that you and I do, and I think I can be good at it. But I'm not sure if I love it. Yeah, so I'm still struggling about, you know, do I want to keep doing that or speaking at conferences or whatever. You know, especially these ones where it's like you have 50 minutes. Because I feel like a lot of the things I'm thinking about now .... They're not like, here's a simple technique that you can use. It's more like, here's a book [00:59:55] on what I thought about this one thing. You know, I just ...  So, yeah, but I would love to take an art class. I think that's what I would like. I think that's one thing my art is missing, is because I do love the process of it and that's more important than the outcome, but there's still something fulfilling about increasing your skill and being able to skillfully make what you're envisioning, you [01:00:25] know, so I would like that, and I think with that if I had some, you know, peers who are struggling as well as a teacher who's helping guide, that would probably be really good. So ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Of course, the nearest place to take art classes around here is an hour and a half away, but that's what happens when you live here in the mountains.  ANDREW: Right.  BARBARA: So.  ANDREW: I wonder if there are ... I wonder, are there are other artists in the community that you could hang out and have conversations with and so on, [01:00:55] you know? As somebody who went to art school, I'm always ... I'm cynical about art and art lessons and art school and formal training and all of those things because it basically, you know, in my experience, and my experience is very particular, but it basically just ruined all of that for me for a very long time, you know? So, but it depends on who you're working with and why, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah. [01:01:31] Well, and this wouldn't be like an art school or even a college art course, it's just workshops held at the local art store. You know. I don't know how that is, cause I've never taken, you know, an art school class. So I don't know. Yeah. That or, or, the other thing I'd been excited about when we moved here was the idea of pursuing interfaith ministry. I haven't ... I thought I'd be a year into those studies already, back in the days when I thought everything was going to be fine. And I haven't done anything [01:02:01] with it and I'm still thinking about that. I haven't really ... The only work ritual designing I've done this year was had to do with Carol and Noel, because they ... when Noel's end was getting really close, they were like, well, you know, most marriage ceremonies say, have the words “until death do us part,” and the marriage ceremony itself is a ritual. And yet when one of the partners dies, there's [01:02:31] no ritual, you know, to wrap it up because if it's till death do you part, then what then? What, you know? And how do we untie this bond that we've made or do we, and to what extent or whatever? So, you know, we talked about that for a while and you know, kind of came to grips with what they wanted to do with each other. And then, of course, the challenge, because Noel by this time was not always with us mentally, you know, so keeping it [01:03:01] short and simple, you know, just a little ceremony for them to both release each other and to reaffirm their eternal love, in whatever way is appropriate, in the next life, perhaps, because they believe in reincarnation, you know, so you tie up all their beliefs into this ritual and knowing that was really satisfying and fulfilling, you know, just like other ceremonies I have done, so that's still there too.   ANDREW: [01:03:31] Yeah. At some point in the next little bit, Hanlon and I are going to go back to the place where we, where we performed our marriage ceremony, because we basically married ourselves, right? And we're going to ... and we're going to release the relationship, right? You know, and we're going to ... You know, we have these relatively simple silver rings. We're going to break them and then we're going to take this over and we'll have them melted down into stuff for the kids. So we'll [01:04:01] make a pendant for each of the kids, and then they can have that, but it won't be the ring anymore, you know. And you know, we have some other things that are sort of remnants of the original ceremony and stuff like that, which we're going to, you know, release in one way or another at the place where we did the ceremony as a way of just basically being like, you know, all right, you know, we signed the papers, we've done whatever, but also, I release everything, like this is just gone now, you know? And I think that that [01:04:31] kind of stuff is really important, you know? And I think that around death, around this, around all of it. It's really important, right? That's why these rituals matter, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Good for you guys.  ANDREW: But first, it's also going to be winter, so it's out on the island in Toronto. It's gonna be very cold and it's not going to be inviting like when, you know, we got married in the summer and we went for a swim afterwards in the lake and stuff. I don't think any of that's going to be happening, but, yeah not really into hypothermia anyway. [01:05:01]   BARBARA: But, also, it's kind of symbolically significant.  ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, maybe that's a good place to wrap this up for today. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Pursue things that are symbolically significant, people, be human. BARBARA: (laughing) That's right! ANDREW: Be weirdos! Hang out! Have fun! Thanks. Thanks so much for following up. I know, I know that this is a challenging time and I think that, I think [01:05:31] that what I've come to think about social media and about these kinds of things like the podcast and so on is, there's so much cynicism about it all, you know, people are so cynical and hear so many things about how meaningless it is and so on, and yet, personally I have some tremendously deep connections with people that are fostered, born, supported, or whatever out of, you [01:06:01] know, out of these things, and I think that if we're able to show up there consciously, then it can become something quite different. If we, if we do that. Otherwise, yeah, sure, we can share cat memes till the cows come home and they're funny, but you know, I'm not sure how many of them I remember down the road, right? BARBARA: Exactly, exactly! ANDREW: For sure. So, in case you decide to start blogging again, or whatever, where should people come and follow you, Barbara?  BARBARA: Yeah. Okay. My website is still the same, tarotshaman.com. My email is on there, BarbaraMoore07@comcast.net. [01:06:37] Please feel free to write, reach out. I may not be on social media, but I still do like hearing people and connecting, and even, keep your eyes open, you never know. I might come back and join the land of the living, join the the Magnificent weirdness that ... ANDREW: Come down off the mountain, Barbara! Come back to the city. (laughing) BARBARA: Yes. Yes. Yes. Come hang out! We can have market days or something. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Awesome. BARBARA: [01:07:10] Well, thank you so much for having me. I am already looking forward to next year. ANDREW: Perfect! 

How to Integrate a Virtual Assistant into Your Business Successfully Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, we take a look at how to integrate a virtual assistant into your business successfully and the importance of having a sound on-boarding process. This episode is full of insights from Matt and Barbara into answering the common question of “What do I do to get my VA started?” Some of the areas covered include: The importance of a strong onboarding process Clearly communicating your expectations, in order to set your VA up to win Building a strong ‘human connection' with your VA from the outset Being clear on your preferred communication style Learning your VAs strengths so as to encourage them to work in their genius Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Resources mentioned in this show: VSS – How To Get Your Virtual Team to Ace Your Expectations In this episode: 01:02 – Integrating a VA into your team 03:07 – A strong onboarding process 05:14 – Communicating your expectations 07:50 – Being properly prepared to welcome your new team member 09:15 – Building a human connection with your VA 10:16 – Be clear on your communication style 12:18 – Learning your VAs strengths 13:46 – Process for onboarding your VA 15:55 – In summary… 16:56 – Wrapping things up Matt: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show. I'm joined by my co-host, Barbara Turley. Hey Barb. Barbara: Hey Matt. How's it going? Matt: Excellent, yourself? Barbara: Good, thanks. Good, thanks. I'm excited about today's show. Got another great case study style topic to cover. Matt: Absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, just before we get started, how's that little Ruby of yours? Barbara: She's great. She's just started walking, so for all of those people out there with young babies, well the fun has started. She's running around the house. Integrating a VA into your team Matt: Fantastic. Fantastic. Barb and I were just having a chat before the show and what came up in our conversation… I was just recently working with a client who was bringing on their first virtual assistant into his business. He's got a team of seven in his office, but it's his first virtual assistant. We were having a coaching session and he said, “Matt what do I do to get them started?” He was really puzzled and really unsure. It was like, he'd never onboarded a virtual assistant before. This guy's got an amazing business, an amazing team, and it was … I was actually just saying to him, I said, “What would you normally do with your current staff if someone was joining your office?” It sparked this conversation, and we're going to go through it today, but it's so interesting the mindset I see so often, and Barb I'm sure you see it as well, where we … there's this, a virtual team member is there and our team is here and because they're not in physical proximity there's this huge difference that needs to happen. It has to be done in a different way. Barbara: Well they don't even see … For example, we often see clients getting all excited through our on-boarding process and they interview the VAs and they're like, “Wow.” They pick someone and then we're like, “Okay. Over to you guys,” and then they're like, “What now?” We're just like, “Well, you start to forge a relationship and you're bringing someone in.” I think people still see … they just still don't see it as someone in their business. It's them and us, and that could be because of the distance and the virtual thing, I'm not sure, but it's … I guess I've got experience doing it now but I can remember when I got my first VA, I do remember feeling the same way, and I had no idea where to start on day one. It is a common problem. Matt, what did you advise this client to do? A strong on-boarding process Matt: What's interesting, I think this is a common problem whether it's ...

When Barbara Felix started her business, Felix the Cook, over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Finding her sweet spot with custom-made sugar cookies, Barbara has attracted big name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons. How can your business do the same? Listen as Barbara shares her best secrets for attracting and delighting clients. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Barbara: I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something. Dave: Meet Barbara Felix, owner of Felix the Cook. Like so many businesses owners, Barbara became her own boss to avoid a boring, cookie-cutter career. Starting a business of her own, Barbara has the freedom to spend her days as she likes — which in her case means delighting customers with custom-made sugar cookies. If you've ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business — or if you've already started and you're wondering how to take things to the next level, listen up. Today, Barbara shares her secrets for how a one-woman operation can use customer relationships to land big-name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons.More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Many small businesses start with a combination of passion and necessity. When Barbara started her business over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Listen as she describes her early attempts at finding the right fit and how an early mentor helped point her in the right direction. Barbara: Well, my dad was a cook. My dad always cooked at home. And I loved to play in the kitchen. I loved making things and my mother let me do whatever I want with butter, sugar and flour. So I have absolutely no fear of sweet stuff. And I grew up, got married, got divorced and decided I needed a career because I've been to high school, of course, but not much college. So there I was, a single mother with two children looking for something to do and I thought well, maybe I can take a cooking class and instead I decided to take the full program at the California Culinary Academy and do 16 months and come out as a chef. So I worked at a really fine restaurant for a couple years and then found it was just too difficult as a single mother to keep the hours of a kitchen, which were pretty brutal, and mind my kids. So I quit that and got into private chefing after a stint of making desserts for restaurants. There were a couple of small restaurants I worked for that didn't have the time or the space to do their own pastry. So I'd do that for them. Again, pastry was always my favorite. And with the kids, I would make cookies with them every holiday like Halloween. I can't get over it. That Halloween, I made black icing, my son was in heaven with black icing everywhere. So we'd do that and then one year one of my instructors was at the house for Christmas and she saw my cookies and she said, “Oh my God, Barbra, you have to sell these.” I said, “Really?” So because I trusted her, I pursued the cookies. I was private chefing at the time and I asked one of my clients what she thought. She suggested I get a year of cookies. So that was a great idea. So I designed 12 collections with 6 designs each to make up a dozen cookies for every month of the year, and got connected with a web designer, who started with that page, our cookies of the month. And from there it just grew. It was very word of mouth, very word of mouth. Dave: So, just talk us through kind of that inspiration for doing the cookies? Barbara: Oh! The inspiration was I can do this, and it's fun and people pay me! That's what it was. And that having someone whose opinion that I trusted told me they were wonderful. That's what I needed because I get in my own little bubble where I can't see outside. And if you go on cookies websites, it's amazing what people are doing. They're total artworks. And if you look at that, and then look at what I do and it's like, well I'd never measure up. The funny thing is, is that they're doing the same thing. Everybody is comparing, which is silly. But I wanted a way to make some money that wasn't as difficult, as private chefing can be. I wanted to do something that I was entirely comfortable with, which is pastry. And it's a fun job and it's a happy job. People are so happy when they can get on my schedule. They are happy to order their cookies they're anticipating, and they're happy when they get them. So I like happy uplifting things. That's why, I'm not curing cancer but I'm making people happy, nothing wrong with that. Dave: With cookie-making, Barbara found the sweet spot she was looking for. Now, she had to find something just as important — a loyal customer base.  Luckily, this wasn't Barbara's first business. Through her past endeavors, Barbara already had some ideas about her target market, what they wanted, and how best to reach them. Barbara: Now, I spent some time in Texas for 10 years and I had my own business there as well, making curtains and drapery and shades. And my first customer was a junior-league lady and I had learned very well. You tell a junior league lady, you're set because they all tell each other, they all call each other. So with that experience, with the cookies I thought, I got to donate to the junior league. And I did the same thing. I picked a couple different charities and I'd make a significant donation and people started calling. And that's how it started, with donations, because I had to get the word out. Dave: Did you set any goals for your business when you were first getting started? Barbara: Oh, I wish I could say yes! I wish I could say I followed my business plan to the T. I did not. My goal was to make some extra money. I'm a single mother with two kids, money was the ticket. So, with the help of friends, I thought it was important to get a website together and that was my first goal to get all those 12 months of designs made. Then to set up a photography booth or some way to get…I bought my first camera to do the photographs, my first little instant camera. And, to set up a business account, I set up a checkbook. The goals were very small and then to find charities where I could donate because I knew that's where my market was. See, I knew, from my experience of having my business in Texas, I knew what these ladies wanted. I knew what they were looking for and knew where they were. I knew my market. And I knew what they needed. And that's how I did it. Going for the upscale charity events and contacting people I knew in that area. Dave: What would you say makes your business different from others out there? Barbara: I would say the service. I mean, they love the taste of the cookies, there's that. They love the cookies, they love what I do. But I've had people tell me, “Oh, you're so flexible, and thank you” And it's personable, you know, people get excited when they can talk to the person who's actually making their product. It's not going through several layers. In fact, a few years ago, well in 2004, Gwyneth Paltrow put me on her Goop website for Christmas. And that's because I knew her driver. A friend of mine drove for her. I didn't even know he was driving for her but that was my connection. And I got a lot of orders and one person called to check on her order and it was so funny the way she spoke. It's like, “Can you go down on the factory floor and find the order?” and I said, “Ma'am I'm making your cookies.” And they're so excited. They're very excited to talk to the person. So I think that's it. There's no filter between me and the client. They call or they email or they talk to me. And that's the way I like it. And even as I grow, I don't know that I'll give away that part of the business. I think I'll still be the contact person. Dave: Barbara's success comes from giving her customers an experience they can't get anywhere else. By listening to her customers' advice, Barbara creates relationships that make other people feel invested in her success. It's no surprise that many of Barbara's best new customers have come directly from her existing customer base. Dave: Yeah. Is there, is there some place that you go for advice or guidance? Barbara: Oh gosh, yes! Gosh, yes! I guess I'm just a friendly person. But I know so many people who seem to be more successful than I am and their always eager to help me. I have one friend I met when I was doing cookies for a charity function and it was being held at Pixar. It was a very big deal and I got to see the Pixar office. I got to look at an Oscar, like two feet from my face, a real Oscar. That woman moved on to another company and another company and she's taken me with her every step of the way. So I've made cookies for her at every company and she's very into computers and marketing. And she helps me and she gives me ideas. Another friend of mine, again, it's a friend of a friend. He asked me if I could deliver cookies to his friend who manages a very big jewelry store downtown. And because of the timing, I thought, “Oh I'll just take him in myself.” And that was like a perfect thing to do. The fellow loved meeting me, he loved the cookies and he has sent me business and he has sent me a wonderful event planner that I work with constantly. And he's my buddy. He brings me to different events, he suggests things to do. He's got me working on a chocolate cookie now. He's determined to have a chocolate cookie place card with gold lettering. So I have ordered. I have been through the web top to bottom looking for a specific edible gold luster, which I've acquired. It's in the mail to me now. So they guide me, they tell me what you can do. Another friend of mine works at LinkedIn and he's helping me use that to meet other marketing people in different companies because that's where the cookie orders from companies come from. So, yes, I don't know, people like me and they talk to me and I talk to them and we chit chat. And yes, I have plenty of advisors. I've made cookies for Google Ventures and they're still customers. I did cookies for UPS. I did cookies for Tyler Florence a couple of times. And when he had his shop, my cookies were in his shop. Because one day, I walked in, and I happened to have my portfolio with me. And there was some sugar cookies for sale and I thought, “Oh my goodness! I can do better than that.” So I showed the sales girl. She got the marketing person to come down and we started a relationship and I had my cookies in there every holiday. Because I walked in and said, “Hey look at me.” Dave: Barbara's confidence in her product and dedication to her customer relationships have served her well in growing her business and reaching big-name clients. But that doesn't mean she's always as busy as she'd like. Dave: Was there ever a time that you felt like potentially the business wasn't gonna work? Barbara: Oh yeah! Oh gosh yes! Dave: Tell us about that. Barbara: Because I didn't have a budget for marketing. My budget was, “Can I pay my mortgage this month?” And some people would tell me, “Oh! You need to get better pictures. They don't do you justice.” And I didn't have the money to go up a notch. Packaging, when you start pricing packaging, you have to buy a lot for custom packaging. It's a huge investment for a small business. And there were times where I would get discouraged. And then the phone would ring and somebody would say so and so told me about you. And I would get all happy again. I really feed off my customer's happiness because it tells me I'm doing a good job. Dave: What have you found has been your most effective way to get or reaching customers? Barbara: Oh, really, Constant Contact because my email list consists of people who have already done business with me. They've already emailed me and bought purchased cookies so they're on my list. They're familiar with the product and the emails are just a reminder that I'm here, which is, as I said, for people that don't order cookies regularly. They need to be reminded, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something… Dave: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your approach with email, like what do you? What do you send out? Like what do you do, how often? Barbara: I want to do it once a month. I try to do it once a month and I like to put up pictures of cookies they haven't seen, something new. Like I believe I did an email about painted cookies now, there's a big demand now for watercolor. You use the food coloring as the paint. So I did that. Mostly it's seasonal, you know. It's like, “Oh this is August, I'll send out a picture of my watermelon cookies” or whatever. Trying to think of what they might be doing and what they might need them for. We're very seasonal. I don't ever have sales, so there's nothing like that to do. I made a decision very early on that I wasn't going to discount my work, at all. And I don't. I don't care if you're buying two dozen or two thousand. The price is the price and that's it. So, there's no sales to advertise. It's mostly a reminder. Get on the books now because September's full. So, think about me now. Mostly to remind people to, order ahead. That's what I use it for. The email marketing is entirely affordable, entirely affordable, $20 a month? I mean, come on. It's a bargain. It's a tremendous bargain. And what sold it for me is the online help because I'm of a certain age. I need to speak to someone. I don't want to just tap on the computer. And every time I call, I get someone who is willing to stay there and help me and I've never gone away unsatisfied from a phone call. And I need that because I'm not computer savvy. I am not going to invest time in learning how to run a computer because I run a cookie business. I'm not a computer person. Dave: Rather than focusing on finding new customers, Barbara stays in touch with her existing customers — the people she already has established relationships with. By reaching out and reminding her customers what she has to offer, she sparks new interest and gets the phone ringing again. Dave: What is it that you would say that really keeps you going and your business successful? Barbara: Pride in what I do, that I do it myself, that I don't have to answer to anyone except my customers. Like I've mentioned, this is not my first business. My first business was making curtains, draperies and shades and it was the similar thing. I worked alone, I made a beautiful product, everybody was happy at every stage. And I loved being my own boss. I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something, if I can't be refinishing furniture, or making a curtain or doing something creative. And the cookies give me all that. All my art, all my color, theory, everything I do is in there. And I love making people happy. I love making little kids smile when they get a cookie. I have pictures on my wall of the little kids holding my cookies, being happy. That's a nice thing. Dave: You'll notice Barbara's success is rooted in her own satisfaction, as well as her customers'. As she said earlier, she really feeds off her customers' happiness. While many small businesses are started by fiercely independent people — hungry to call the shots, make their own hours, and put their stamp on things — the successful ones never lose sight of the people they're trying to help. I'll leave you with Barbara's best advice for someone interested in starting their own business. Barbara: Oh, golly. Know your market. If you don't know where your market is and what they want, you have no chance. You need to know what people want. And once you figure that out, make what they need. It's the same classic advice, find a need and fill it. And because of my exposure to a certain crowd of people years ago, I knew what they were looking for. I knew what they liked to have and that's why I can still serve those people by making my product. You have to know your market, you can't just have a good idea that nobody wants to buy, if you're gonna do it for a living. I mean believe me, I love what I do, I love the art but make no mistake, and this is how I put gas in the car. I have to make money. Dave: We appreciate you listening and would love to hear what you think of the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher right now and leave us a review. Small Biz Stories is produced by myself and Miranda Paquet with editing by TwentyFourSound. You can contact us at podcast@constantcontact.com Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. The post Felix the Cook — Small Biz Stories, Episode 14 appeared first on Constant Contact.

When Barbara Felix started her business, Felix the Cook, over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Finding her sweet spot with custom-made sugar cookies, Barbara has attracted big name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons. How can your business do the same? Listen as Barbara shares her best secrets for attracting and delighting clients. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Barbara: I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something. Dave: Meet Barbara Felix, owner of Felix the Cook. Like so many businesses owners, Barbara became her own boss to avoid a boring, cookie-cutter career. Starting a business of her own, Barbara has the freedom to spend her days as she likes — which in her case means delighting customers with custom-made sugar cookies. If you've ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business — or if you've already started and you're wondering how to take things to the next level, listen up. Today, Barbara shares her secrets for how a one-woman operation can use customer relationships to land big-name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons.More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Many small businesses start with a combination of passion and necessity. When Barbara started her business over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Listen as she describes her early attempts at finding the right fit and how an early mentor helped point her in the right direction. Barbara: Well, my dad was a cook. My dad always cooked at home. And I loved to play in the kitchen. I loved making things and my mother let me do whatever I want with butter, sugar and flour. So I have absolutely no fear of sweet stuff. And I grew up, got married, got divorced and decided I needed a career because I've been to high school, of course, but not much college. So there I was, a single mother with two children looking for something to do and I thought well, maybe I can take a cooking class and instead I decided to take the full program at the California Culinary Academy and do 16 months and come out as a chef. So I worked at a really fine restaurant for a couple years and then found it was just too difficult as a single mother to keep the hours of a kitchen, which were pretty brutal, and mind my kids. So I quit that and got into private chefing after a stint of making desserts for restaurants. There were a couple of small restaurants I worked for that didn't have the time or the space to do their own pastry. So I'd do that for them. Again, pastry was always my favorite. And with the kids, I would make cookies with them every holiday like Halloween. I can't get over it. That Halloween, I made black icing, my son was in heaven with black icing everywhere. So we'd do that and then one year one of my instructors was at the house for Christmas and she saw my cookies and she said, “Oh my God, Barbra, you have to sell these.” I said, “Really?” So because I trusted her, I pursued the cookies. I was private chefing at the time and I asked one of my clients what she thought. She suggested I get a year of cookies. So that was a great idea. So I designed 12 collections with 6 designs each to make up a dozen cookies for every month of the year, and got connected with a web designer, who started with that page, our cookies of the month. And from there it just grew. It was very word of mouth, very word of mouth. Dave: So, just talk us through kind of that inspiration for doing the cookies? Barbara: Oh! The inspiration was I can do this, and it's fun and people pay me! That's what it was. And that having someone whose opinion that I trusted told me they were wonderful. That's what I needed because I get in my own little bubble where I can't see outside. And if you go on cookies websites, it's amazing what people are doing. They're total artworks. And if you look at that, and then look at what I do and it's like, well I'd never measure up. The funny thing is, is that they're doing the same thing. Everybody is comparing, which is silly. But I wanted a way to make some money that wasn't as difficult, as private chefing can be. I wanted to do something that I was entirely comfortable with, which is pastry. And it's a fun job and it's a happy job. People are so happy when they can get on my schedule. They are happy to order their cookies they're anticipating, and they're happy when they get them. So I like happy uplifting things. That's why, I'm not curing cancer but I'm making people happy, nothing wrong with that. Dave: With cookie-making, Barbara found the sweet spot she was looking for. Now, she had to find something just as important — a loyal customer base.  Luckily, this wasn't Barbara's first business. Through her past endeavors, Barbara already had some ideas about her target market, what they wanted, and how best to reach them. Barbara: Now, I spent some time in Texas for 10 years and I had my own business there as well, making curtains and drapery and shades. And my first customer was a junior-league lady and I had learned very well. You tell a junior league lady, you're set because they all tell each other, they all call each other. So with that experience, with the cookies I thought, I got to donate to the junior league. And I did the same thing. I picked a couple different charities and I'd make a significant donation and people started calling. And that's how it started, with donations, because I had to get the word out. Dave: Did you set any goals for your business when you were first getting started? Barbara: Oh, I wish I could say yes! I wish I could say I followed my business plan to the T. I did not. My goal was to make some extra money. I'm a single mother with two kids, money was the ticket. So, with the help of friends, I thought it was important to get a website together and that was my first goal to get all those 12 months of designs made. Then to set up a photography booth or some way to get…I bought my first camera to do the photographs, my first little instant camera. And, to set up a business account, I set up a checkbook. The goals were very small and then to find charities where I could donate because I knew that's where my market was. See, I knew, from my experience of having my business in Texas, I knew what these ladies wanted. I knew what they were looking for and knew where they were. I knew my market. And I knew what they needed. And that's how I did it. Going for the upscale charity events and contacting people I knew in that area. Dave: What would you say makes your business different from others out there? Barbara: I would say the service. I mean, they love the taste of the cookies, there's that. They love the cookies, they love what I do. But I've had people tell me, “Oh, you're so flexible, and thank you” And it's personable, you know, people get excited when they can talk to the person who's actually making their product. It's not going through several layers. In fact, a few years ago, well in 2004, Gwyneth Paltrow put me on her Goop website for Christmas. And that's because I knew her driver. A friend of mine drove for her. I didn't even know he was driving for her but that was my connection. And I got a lot of orders and one person called to check on her order and it was so funny the way she spoke. It's like, “Can you go down on the factory floor and find the order?” and I said, “Ma'am I'm making your cookies.” And they're so excited. They're very excited to talk to the person. So I think that's it. There's no filter between me and the client. They call or they email or they talk to me. And that's the way I like it. And even as I grow, I don't know that I'll give away that part of the business. I think I'll still be the contact person. Dave: Barbara's success comes from giving her customers an experience they can't get anywhere else. By listening to her customers' advice, Barbara creates relationships that make other people feel invested in her success. It's no surprise that many of Barbara's best new customers have come directly from her existing customer base. Dave: Yeah. Is there, is there some place that you go for advice or guidance? Barbara: Oh gosh, yes! Gosh, yes! I guess I'm just a friendly person. But I know so many people who seem to be more successful than I am and their always eager to help me. I have one friend I met when I was doing cookies for a charity function and it was being held at Pixar. It was a very big deal and I got to see the Pixar office. I got to look at an Oscar, like two feet from my face, a real Oscar. That woman moved on to another company and another company and she's taken me with her every step of the way. So I've made cookies for her at every company and she's very into computers and marketing. And she helps me and she gives me ideas. Another friend of mine, again, it's a friend of a friend. He asked me if I could deliver cookies to his friend who manages a very big jewelry store downtown. And because of the timing, I thought, “Oh I'll just take him in myself.” And that was like a perfect thing to do. The fellow loved meeting me, he loved the cookies and he has sent me business and he has sent me a wonderful event planner that I work with constantly. And he's my buddy. He brings me to different events, he suggests things to do. He's got me working on a chocolate cookie now. He's determined to have a chocolate cookie place card with gold lettering. So I have ordered. I have been through the web top to bottom looking for a specific edible gold luster, which I've acquired. It's in the mail to me now. So they guide me, they tell me what you can do. Another friend of mine works at LinkedIn and he's helping me use that to meet other marketing people in different companies because that's where the cookie orders from companies come from. So, yes, I don't know, people like me and they talk to me and I talk to them and we chit chat. And yes, I have plenty of advisors. I've made cookies for Google Ventures and they're still customers. I did cookies for UPS. I did cookies for Tyler Florence a couple of times. And when he had his shop, my cookies were in his shop. Because one day, I walked in, and I happened to have my portfolio with me. And there was some sugar cookies for sale and I thought, “Oh my goodness! I can do better than that.” So I showed the sales girl. She got the marketing person to come down and we started a relationship and I had my cookies in there every holiday. Because I walked in and said, “Hey look at me.” Dave: Barbara's confidence in her product and dedication to her customer relationships have served her well in growing her business and reaching big-name clients. But that doesn't mean she's always as busy as she'd like. Dave: Was there ever a time that you felt like potentially the business wasn't gonna work? Barbara: Oh yeah! Oh gosh yes! Dave: Tell us about that. Barbara: Because I didn't have a budget for marketing. My budget was, “Can I pay my mortgage this month?” And some people would tell me, “Oh! You need to get better pictures. They don't do you justice.” And I didn't have the money to go up a notch. Packaging, when you start pricing packaging, you have to buy a lot for custom packaging. It's a huge investment for a small business. And there were times where I would get discouraged. And then the phone would ring and somebody would say so and so told me about you. And I would get all happy again. I really feed off my customer's happiness because it tells me I'm doing a good job. Dave: What have you found has been your most effective way to get or reaching customers? Barbara: Oh, really, Constant Contact because my email list consists of people who have already done business with me. They've already emailed me and bought purchased cookies so they're on my list. They're familiar with the product and the emails are just a reminder that I'm here, which is, as I said, for people that don't order cookies regularly. They need to be reminded, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something… Dave: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your approach with email, like what do you? What do you send out? Like what do you do, how often? Barbara: I want to do it once a month. I try to do it once a month and I like to put up pictures of cookies they haven't seen, something new. Like I believe I did an email about painted cookies now, there's a big demand now for watercolor. You use the food coloring as the paint. So I did that. Mostly it's seasonal, you know. It's like, “Oh this is August, I'll send out a picture of my watermelon cookies” or whatever. Trying to think of what they might be doing and what they might need them for. We're very seasonal. I don't ever have sales, so there's nothing like that to do. I made a decision very early on that I wasn't going to discount my work, at all. And I don't. I don't care if you're buying two dozen or two thousand. The price is the price and that's it. So, there's no sales to advertise. It's mostly a reminder. Get on the books now because September's full. So, think about me now. Mostly to remind people to, order ahead. That's what I use it for. The email marketing is entirely affordable, entirely affordable, $20 a month? I mean, come on. It's a bargain. It's a tremendous bargain. And what sold it for me is the online help because I'm of a certain age. I need to speak to someone. I don't want to just tap on the computer. And every time I call, I get someone who is willing to stay there and help me and I've never gone away unsatisfied from a phone call. And I need that because I'm not computer savvy. I am not going to invest time in learning how to run a computer because I run a cookie business. I'm not a computer person. Dave: Rather than focusing on finding new customers, Barbara stays in touch with her existing customers — the people she already has established relationships with. By reaching out and reminding her customers what she has to offer, she sparks new interest and gets the phone ringing again. Dave: What is it that you would say that really keeps you going and your business successful? Barbara: Pride in what I do, that I do it myself, that I don't have to answer to anyone except my customers. Like I've mentioned, this is not my first business. My first business was making curtains, draperies and shades and it was the similar thing. I worked alone, I made a beautiful product, everybody was happy at every stage. And I loved being my own boss. I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something, if I can't be refinishing furniture, or making a curtain or doing something creative. And the cookies give me all that. All my art, all my color, theory, everything I do is in there. And I love making people happy. I love making little kids smile when they get a cookie. I have pictures on my wall of the little kids holding my cookies, being happy. That's a nice thing. Dave: You'll notice Barbara's success is rooted in her own satisfaction, as well as her customers'. As she said earlier, she really feeds off her customers' happiness. While many small businesses are started by fiercely independent people — hungry to call the shots, make their own hours, and put their stamp on things — the successful ones never lose sight of the people they're trying to help. I'll leave you with Barbara's best advice for someone interested in starting their own business. Barbara: Oh, golly. Know your market. If you don't know where your market is and what they want, you have no chance. You need to know what people want. And once you figure that out, make what they need. It's the same classic advice, find a need and fill it. And because of my exposure to a certain crowd of people years ago, I knew what they were looking for. I knew what they liked to have and that's why I can still serve those people by making my product. You have to know your market, you can't just have a good idea that nobody wants to buy, if you're gonna do it for a living. I mean believe me, I love what I do, I love the art but make no mistake, and this is how I put gas in the car. I have to make money. Dave: We appreciate you listening and would love to hear what you think of the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher right now and leave us a review. Small Biz Stories is produced by myself and Miranda Paquet with editing by TwentyFourSound. You can contact us at podcast@constantcontact.com Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. The post Felix the Cook — Small Biz Stories, Episode 14 appeared first on Constant Contact.

How Maria Golding, Founder of Intuitive Motherhood, Has Embraced the World of Virtual Teams to Achieve Her Business Goals Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Intuitive Motherhood & Embodied Parenting Coach & Speaker Maria Golding, talks us through how she has built a team of virtual specialists to assist her in achieving her business, and personal, goals.  This episode is full of insights from Maria on how she has played to her strengths and the things she loves doing, whilst surrounding herself with amazing virtual teams, to essentially do the rest.  Some of the areas covered include: The importance of not waiting too long to seek help Listening and implementing sound advice can definitely work in your favour Expanding, rather than contracting, your business when things seem tough Identifying your genius, and letting go of the rest Why having the right business tools is important to the overall success of your business Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group.   In this episode: 01:47 – About Maria 04:26 – Why Maria sought help 06:41 – Accepting sound advice 07:16 – The importance of having specialists on your team 09:45 – Expanding, rather than contracting, your business 10:46 – Business automation 11:27 – Having a VA with the correct training and support 13:04 – Identifying your genius…and letting go 14:15 – Transitioning to a new VA 17:20 – Following the success formula 20:30 – Facing your fears 23:08 – Maria's advice for overcoming your fears 25:43 – Wrapping things up   Barbara:  Hey everyone, and welcome to yet another episode of the Virtual Success Show, where I'm joined by my co-host Matt. Hey Matt, how's it going? Matt:  I'm well Barb, and yourself?   Barbara:  Very well, thank you. Sweating in this constant heat that we're having. We're still having this heat in Sydney as we record today.   Matt:  Yes, it's brilliant though. It's better than wet, freezing, or any other type of weather there could be. I love it.   Barbara:  Well, you know though, I'm just back … I had the joy of spending Christmas in Europe this year and I spent six weeks in Europe, and some of that was spent in the French Alps. It was minus 20, but blue skies and snowing. And it was amazing. It was a beautiful … like red wine, big fires, cold outside, very very nice. So there is joy in cold weather too.   Matt:  Beautiful. I'm looking forward to today's episode Barb.   Barbara:  Yeah. Me too, me too. I mean look, for listeners out there, hands up. I know so many people want to launch online programmes, and it can be… Product Launch Formula by Jeff Walker is probably the most overwhelming thing that you will ever do. I know I've done it. Lots of people try and pull it off, and it's a huge job to do. Particularly when you've got no real experience with technology, systems, VAs, strategists, or any of this sort of thing. About Maria   So today's show, we're going to talk to a Virtual Angel Hub member, Maria. And Maria runs a beautiful programme called Intuitive Motherhood. And she was someone who came to us looking for a VA, and I think she was just about to throw the towel in on all this online stuff, because it's so difficult. And we actually spoke on the phone. She very kindly sent in this support ticket asking for some help around platforms, and I spoke to her and I gave her some advice around the things that she needed to do if she wanted to launch her programme. She needed a strategist, a VA, and a system like Ontraport, which is what she ended up taking on. But the beauty of this story that we're going to share with you today is that then she told me her timeline for her launch, and she had announced that her launch was supposed to be the beginning of November. And this was the end of September that we were talking. So Maria, welcome to the show. Maria:  Thank you Barb.