Podcast appearances and mentions of barbara oh

What you'll learn in this episode:   How the artists represented by BABS translate their artistic vision to jewelry Why showing art and jewelry outside of the traditional gallery setting can make it less intimidating for non-collectors Why artist jewelry has yet to catch on with Italian consumers, and how Barbara hopes the industry evolves Why Barbara thinks there should be no division between art and art jewelry, and how she is trying to solve this issue What Barbara looks for in the pieces she selects for her gallery   About Barbara Lo Bianco Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists' jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Website: www.babsartgallery.it Artists Page: https://www.babsartgallery.it/maestri-gioiello-milano/ Barbara's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lo-bianco-a1330a/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babsartgallery/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/babsartgallery.gioiellidartista/ Twitter: @BabsGallery   Transcript   Barbara Lo Bianco's mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she's trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    We've had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor, but her passion has always been in art and jewelry. BABS stands for Beyond Art Before Sculpture. She opened a gallery which showcases artists she knew. They were doing sculpture, but she convinced them to do jewelry. They didn't know their creativity was also in this area until she gave them the space and encouragement to do it. We'll hear all about her art gallery today.   Barbara: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me again.   Sharon: I'm so glad that we connected. Why did you decide to locate in Milan?   Barbara: It's very normal. It's just that I live here. It's the easiest thing. Milan has a long tradition in artist jewelry. Actually, artist jewelry in Italy started in Rome right after World War II, when some of the sculptors were commissioned to do unique pieces in order to recreate an interest in our jewelry, which was not something necessary right after the war, when everything had to be reconstructed again. So, you had to make jewelry that was a little bit different.   Then, in the 60s, it moved to Milan. In Milan, there was GEM by Montebello, who has been the biggest and most famous editor of jewelry by artists in Italy. They worked with more than 50 artists and created more than 200 jewelry pieces. So, there is a tradition, but there had never been a gallery doing that. So, I was in Milan. Why not? Actually, I'm still the only gallery in Italy.   Sharon: In Italy?   Barbara: Yes.   Sharon: I'm thinking about Thereza Pedrosa. She gathers pieces she likes, not pieces that have been commissioned for the gallery.   Barbara: Yeah, this is a little bit different. We don't focus on contemporary; we focus on jewels made by artists, visual artists, painters, sculptors, photographers. We ask them to do a piece of jewelry. We also exhibit some historical pieces, but it's not our major business.   Sharon: I was wondering if you live in Milan. I don't know that much about Italy, but I've heard Milan is the fashion capital.   Barbara: It is. It's so busy.   Sharon: Did you have a reason to start there?   Barbara: It's the most motivational and vibrant city in Italy. It is very European, although in size, it's quite nice. It still has a local atmosphere although it's quite international. The other cities in Italy are more for tourists. This is one is more a business city, and it's more where you do things. It's the most business city we have, but it's nice.   Sharon: I've heard it's an up-and-coming city. It was industrial and now it's really changed.   Barbara: Yes, in the 70s, it used to be a little bit more industrial. Now, it's mainly services.   Sharon: Was that one reason you decided to open in Milan, besides the fact that you lived in Milan? Did you consider other places?   Barbara: No, honestly, I did not. I think it is quite a good location because a lot of the expertise, especially for goldsmiths, is in this area anyway. I would have had to work mostly from here. Plus, it is quite convenient if you do road shows or if you want to do exhibitions. It's very logistically easy. There are some cities in Italy which might be a little bit more artistic, like Florence or Venice or Rome, but I still think working in Milan would be the best place.   Sharon: Did you consider other artists you didn't know, or artists that were in other parts of Italy?   Barbara: Oh, yes. We do work with them. I started with just a few whom I knew. I had been buying their work because I am an art enthusiast. I did buy some pieces of artists I liked. That was just the beginning, but I'm still working and starting to get work from other artists, not only Italians, but also foreigners.    Sharon: Did you find it difficult to start because they didn't know who you were?    Barbara: Yes. I have to say yes, because at the beginning I was totally new and a very young gallery. It was the only gallery doing this in Italy, so it was quite strange to approach an artist and ask, “Excuse me, would you like to do this?” Second, it was because I don't come from the art world. I've not been in the system. My husband is not a collector. He's not a gallerist nor is my family. We've always been very enthusiastic about it, but we're not related to anyone and haven't worked with museums or galleries. So, connections were not that easy at the beginning.    I'm usually a little bit humble, but this time I have to say it because I've been having a lot of appreciation lately. I'm working a lot and trying to work well and consistently, so people are now approaching me, and once I approach them, they're willing to work with me. So, it's getting easier.    Sharon: What did you do during Covid, when nobody would talk to anybody?   Barbara: Well, we needed to work. We worked at trying to build up an archive. We were organizing, taking pictures and trying to exploit social media and what technology gave us. We were quite a young gallery because we opened in the autumn of 2018. After a year and a half, we were already closed for the pandemic, but that gave us some time to slow down a little bit. We had been doing exhibitions every two months, which was a lot. So, we had time to slow down and reorganize the archive, reorganize the website, reorganize the Instagram, and try to understand how all those types of media work, because I had never been using them. I didn't need them in my previous business. So, there was everything to learn.   Sharon: Is this what you focus on mainly, besides the gems? Have you given up the gems? Have you given up the real estate investing? Is this your main business?   Barbara: No, this is my main business. I gave up fitness. I'm still doing real estate and financial investments because that's a family company. I work for them, but that doesn't take too much time. I have to say that the gallery absorbs 90% of my working time.   Sharon: Wow! Do you have people who work for you in the gallery?   Barbara: Yes, I have a couple of assistants.   Sharon: How do you find new artists? Do they submit things to you?   Barbara: Sometimes they submit them. Sometimes I work with curators and consultants. I explore new artists and try to see what's new in this world, plus I go to classes. I'm doing a class with an art historian with a focus on contemporary artists. So, I see the artists I like or artists I might find interesting for what they have to say. I always get inspiration.    Sharon: Is that an official class, or is that something you do because you like to?   Barbara: No, that's just because I like to. At this time in my life, I'm doing things just because I like them. It's always been an interest, so I want to pursue it; I want to do it. I do study a lot of art because that's not my background. My background is in law and then taking classes for an MBA. I've been working in a totally different field, so there's always a need to learn more. Of course, I've grown up surrounded by art, but that's mostly ancient art. That helps you build a critical eye and makes you a little more curious about exploring things, but somehow you have to continue pursuing what you like. So, I do study.   Sharon: Do people send photos to you of things you've never heard of?   Barbara: Yes, artists do propose. There are not that many, I have to say. They propose themselves mostly if they are emerging artists. A lot of contemporary jewelers do promote themselves, but I do not work with them most of the time because that's not my business. That is a very nice type of art, but it's not what I'm focusing on. What I do in the gallery is work with regional artists that usually do not do jewelry. I ask them to create something with their poetic position, with their aesthetic eye, with their meaning, and with the message they usually try to correlate with their art. I propose that they exploit a new medium to convey the same type of art, which is a small sculpture.   Sharon: Do they understand what you're after?   Barbara: Yes.    Sharon: And if you're low on rings or bracelets, let's say, and you need more, you don't tell them that.   Barbara: No, usually not. I ask them to do something and leave them free—at least at the beginning, I let them feel free to explore, to draw, to create a prototype in paper, in concrete, in clay, in wax, in whatever they like. That's a starting point. From that starting point, we start creating things. Maybe we say, “O.K., this one doesn't work as a bracelet, but maybe we can transform it into a necklace or into a pendant,” or “This doesn't work as a ring, but it could be an earring or vice versa.” It depends.    Sharon: Are they open to your changes, if you have changes?   Barbara: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they do not want to change the work, but the work is not wearable, sometimes we discharge that project. We do another thing.   Sharon: If it's not wearable?   Barbara: Yeah, because there are some limitations. If you want to create a ring in gold and in a particular size, but it doesn't fit because it would be way too heavy, then I cannot make it. If you want to make an earring and it weighs too much so that your ear falls down, there is no way we can do an earring. We can do something else, or we can change the material and try to find something lighter. Sometimes they do accept it; sometimes we just don't do that piece.    Sharon: You mentioned that you like the fact that you can show your art and jewelry in different places where you don't usually see it, like a gym.    Barbara: Since I've always been passionate about art, I've always thought people are quite shy about walking into a regular art gallery, especially in Italy. You have some sort of fear. “What if they ask me to buy it and I cannot afford it? What if I don't understand and I ask the wrong question?” Especially with contemporary art, it's always harder to approach it.    I had a chain of very high-end fitness centers. Very nice people were coming to the gym, and they were coming quite often. I had a lot of walls, so I said, “Why not exhibit some young artists or some contemporary artists?” I did, and it was appreciated by other people. They did approach the art and they liked it. Twice a year, I was doing a bigger exhibition with sculptures. For the rest, I was just exhibiting flatworks. It was quite a successful experience for everyone. We had nicer spaces for the clients that were seeing something new, and the artists sold pieces quite a few times. It was a win/win situation.   Sharon: Wow! We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why being a jewelry artist is like being an engineer How Barbara got her jewelry in the hands of famous rock-and-rollers like David Bowie and the Rolling Stones  Why Barbara doesn't separate her jewelry into women's and men's lines Why talent is only a small part of what it takes to become a successful jeweler About Barbara Klar Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright. Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day. New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer! Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky. Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video. Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains." Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter Blog Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Barbara Klar's jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara's celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Welcome back.    So, is your studio inside your home now?   Barbara: Yes, it is. It always has been. One time, I tried to have my studio in the back room of my store in SoHo. That just didn't work at all. If they know I'm there, everybody is like, “Is Barbara here?” I could never get any work done. Eventually, I was able to get a building in Williamsburg and have my studios there. It was a great building because it had been a doctor's office in the 50s, so there was a little living space in the back and the front had been all the examination rooms. That worked out perfectly for my studio at the time.   Sharon: And you're in Woodstock, New York now?   Barbara: Yes, I am. I love it here.   Sharon: Had you moved there before Covid, or is that just an area you like?   Barbara: I've been here about six years now. I've been all over the Hudson Valley. I think I moved here prior to Covid. It's a very arty town and full of weirdos and like-minded people. It's a cool place. It has the history of Bird-On-A-Cliff, which was where all the Hudson Valley artists started. It started as an arts colony. So, it's got that history, and it's nice to be part of a history.    When I had my store—and I loved my store on 7th Steet in the East Village—I was so akin and felt such a vibe from the previous generations of jewelers that had stores on 8th Street in the West Village. It was a complete circle to me, and I feel that way now as well.   Sharon: So, you targeted Woodstock or this area to live in?   Barbara: No, I was going through a breakup. It was very painful. I found a place here. I knew it would be my home and my love. I was lucky. It's one of those guided journeys.   Sharon: Looking behind you, I can see you have quite a well-developed studio. You have all your tools. It doesn't seem like you'd be missing anything there.    Barbara: Definitely not. It's great.   Sharon: Did you start out that way? Did you collect the tools throughout the years?   Barbara: Since 1979, I've been collecting tools. There's always something else you need as a jeweler and a metalsmith. About 10 years ago I sold my house, which was a little bit south of Woodstock, and got rid of everything except my studio and my clothes. That's where I'm at now, and it feels so good to not be buried with stuff. I just have my workshop, and that's basically it.   Sharon: That's the important thing, having your workshop. I don't know if you still do, but you had a very successful line of men's jewelry.   Barbara: Yeah, I was one of the first to do men's jewelry. That was probably in the late 80s, early 90s. I've done a lot of men's. I had a lot of gay male clientele. They were always coming in, and they had a large disposable income. It worked out great. I love to see a man in jewelry. I love what's happened with the metrosexuals in the last eight or nine years. Even the nonbinary and straight males are feeling more comfortable with jewelry, and I think it's really great. Coming from a rock background, you see a lot of flamboyancy on stage, and you see a lot of guys flashing metal. I think it looks great.   Sharon: It that what prompted you to develop this line? Did you ever sell it? Was it a production line or was it one-off? How was it?   Barbara: It's limited production always. I had a friend ask me recently, “Barbara, on your website, why don't you have a category that's specifically men's jewelry?” I said, “I'll never do that because I can never tell what a man's going to like.” With all of this large spectrum of gender identity, I can't tell what somebody's going to like. That's not up to me, to decide what men's jewelry is. So, I never really bought into that, but I know men and kids seem to like my work.   Sharon: They look in your window and come in and say, “I'd like to try that on”?   Barbara: Yeah, especially some of the bigger rings. I was always surprised what was attractive to them. Also, there's a lot of word of mouth. I never relied on advertising. I got a lot of press, which didn't seem to do much, but mostly it's because of word of mouth that people come to me.   Sharon: Is the press how you developed your celebrity clientele? You were mentioning that you have quite a roster or that you've done a lot for celebrities.   Barbara: Yeah, that just kind of happened. In my store in SoHo, I used to have what I would call my “deli wall.” You know how you go into a deli in New York and you see all of the celebrities saying, “Oh, thanks for that corned beef sandwich. It was the best I had”? I had that in the background. Over time, celebrities would come in. A lot of stylists would bring celebrities. I developed the deli wall, and it was word of mouth again.   Sharon: I always wonder when I look at a deli wall if they ask people for their signatures, if they have a stack of photos in the back and say, “Would you sign this?” How did that work for you?   Barbara: I'd always ask them. It's hard to do sometimes. I don't want to overstep because every celebrity reacts differently to being recognized and interacting, but you've just got to do it. It's funny; I'm impressed, but I know they're human just like me. On my website, I sometimes look at the marketing stats, and that page is the most visited page. Here in America, we love our celebrities.    I know a lot of them had a big impact on me, so I get it. Once I waited in line for half a day because I made this belt for Tina Turner. She was signing records at Tower Records in New York City. I went up to her and showed her the belt, and I was so excited because she meant a lot me. She got me through a couple of breakups that were pretty devastating. So, I get it. I'm a fan. Definitely, I'm a fan.   Sharon: What did she say when she saw the belt?   Barbara: She was like, “Oh, I love it. I just love it.” She said, “I'm going to wear it.” I never saw her wearing it, but she was very kind and wonderful and gracious.   Sharon: That takes guts on your part, just to show a belt to a celebrity like that.    Barbara: It's not comfortable for me because I'm very shy. I'm really a shy person. I even tried being in bands. My friends were in bands. I work better behind the scenes, but sometimes you have to jump off that cliff. I'm one of these people that I might be shy, but I'm also brave. I'll take a risk. I think in these times, with the all the competition out there, especially for jewelry designers, you have to take a risk and you have to be brave.   Sharon: Yes, absolutely. It's amazing to me; so many people I talk to who make jewelry, they say they're shy, but you have to put yourself out there. You have to put your product out there. You can't just sit in your studio.   Barbara: You can't, and you also have to be able to talk about your work. There was a relationship I had at one time, and we had these arguments because he would make this incredible work. I would say, “What does it mean? How would you explain it? How would you define it?” and he would say, “Well, I'm not going to do that. If I have to do that, it negates everything. People should be able to draw their own opinions about what I'm saying.” I was like, “No, I don't agree. I think you should be able to say what your intention was, how you see it. If it's interpreted differently, that's an extra plus in my mind.” I think everybody should be able to talk about their work.   Sharon: Especially if you are doing what I'll call art jewelry. You're not walking into a place like Tiffany, let say. That's the only one of its kind.    Barbara: Exactly. The one-of-a-kinds are like that. When I had my store in SoHo, the greatest thing that was the most fun for me was making an inspirational thing that I thought nobody would ever wear or buy and putting it in the window, because that would get people to come in. They were outrageous; they were huge, and often I would sell those pieces. It was a shock to me.   Sharon: How did it feel to see celebrities, such as Steve Jordan, wearing what you made?   Barbara: It's pretty incredible. Once it leaves my hands, it takes on its own journey. It's an ego boost for a minute, but then you've got to make a living the rest of the time. I've been in this business so long, and you think, “Oh my God, I got my stuff on the Rolling Stones tour. It's so great.” It's impressive to people when you're at a party and you can say that. Ultimately, it means nothing. Has he mentioned my name or anything on the Rolling Stones tour? No. That may never happen, and that's fine. I don't care. It's fun.    Sharon: Is it validation to other people if you're showing your work or talking about it, and you say a certain celebrity wore it? Isn't that validation in a sense?   Barbara: It is. I try not to buy into that too much. The validation really comes from myself. I know what I'm doing. It's fine. I don't really need that, but that's an extra special perk, I must say.   Sharon: A validation for you, but also—I'm not sure it would sway me, but for a lot of people—it depends on who the celebrity is, but it could sway somebody. They might say, “If ABC person wore it, then I want one like it.”   Barbara: Oh yeah, definitely. It works that way. To a lot of my rock-and-roll friends, the fact that I've sold a lot of work to Steven Tyler or Steve Jordan means something. Sometimes they'll come to me with special commissions. One of my first commissions when I had my store in SoHo was for a client who had been to London, and he was obsessed with Keith Richards and the bracelet he always wears. He wears this incredible bracelet made by Crazy Pig Studios in London. He came to me and said he wanted me to make a bracelet like the one Keith Richards wears. I said, “Why would you have me do it? Why don't you dial Crazy Pig in London and get the same bracelet?” He said, “Oh, I was in there. They were mean. They were really intimidating. I don't want to give them my money.” So, I said, “All right. It's going to be a little different, but I'll make one for you,” and I made this incredible bracelet. I still sell it today. It's the Keith Richards bracelet. It's a fun story.   Sharon: Wow! Yeah, that is a fun story. You're also writing a book now. Tell us a little about the title.   Barbara: Titles are interchangeable, but this has been the title for a while. It's called “You're So Talented.” I'm not sure what the subtitle is going to be exactly, but it could be “It Takes More Than Talent” or “Confessions of a Worker Bee.” It's basically about my stories, my experiences not being a businessperson and being more of an artist, surviving New York. A lot of stories. It's geared towards kids who have a lot of talent, but that's not all it takes. Talent is like two percent of what it takes to be successful and to be creative and to be a survivor.    Surviving in New York City was such an incredible challenge, especially when you're living and working on the street level. You can't control what comes into your space. You don't know how business is done. I had just opened my store in the East Village. I was 24 or something, and this big bruiser guy comes into my store and is like, “You gotta pay me for sanitation pickup.” I said, “What? I have to pay for sanitation? I thought the landlord took care of that.” He said, “No, we pick it up.” I'm like, “Well, how much do you want?” He said, “We want $75 a month.” I said, “What? I can't pay that. I can barely pay my rent.” He said, “Well, how much can you pay?” and I said, “Well, I can pay like $15.” He said, “O.K.” and he walked out. Wouldn't you know, every month he was there for his $15. It was crazy.   Sharon: You were honest, but you had to become a businessperson over the years.   Barbara: It was such a challenge. I have to tell you, another successful designer once said to me, “Nothing teaches you about money like not having any.” I think that was one of the wisest words, because I learned how to become my own bookkeeper, my own press person, my own rep. I also had to pay all the employee taxes, navigate the business end of it, try to get business loans. That was such an experience. I heard 2Roses talking about this on your podcast, too, about how business should be included in art school training. I was totally thrown out there and totally naïve.   Sharon: It sounds like the school of hard knocks.   Barbara: Definitely.   Sharon: And that's what the book is about?   Barbara: Yes. People say, “You're so talented.” If I had a quarter for every time somebody said that to me, I'd be rich. No, it's not about that. It's about perseverance, and it's about hearing a lot of “no's.” It's about coming through the back door instead of the front door. The book is about things that were on my journey that were important and meaningful to me, and that I think young people could learn something from about moving to New York as an artist. It's very different now. I don't claim to know the ins and outs of New York City at this point in life, but I think my journey is still relevant.   Sharon: Definitely. I'm curious how you took the “no's,” because you must have heard a lot of “no's.”   Barbara: So many. It gets you to that next point. A no is actually good, because you're forced to meet up with another solution or another path. I'll never forget; I wanted to be like Robert Lee Morris, who had his work everywhere and bought a ranch in New Mexico and everything. I remember being tested for QVC in the 80s. They were having young designers on QVC. I did the test, and I heard them in the background saying, “I don't know if she works well on camera. She might be a little too quirky. Her work is a little too eclectic.” I was like, “Oh God, really?” So, I was like, “You know what? I don't care. That's my thing. Maybe I don't want to be a production person.”    I looked into having my work made overseas and all of that, and I realized, in the end, I would just be a manufacturer. For me, the art was more important. The hands-on making was more important. The person-to-person contact, communication with my clients and my employees was really important to me. I enjoy that way more than if I had been basically a business owner.    Sharon: It's having the mark of the hand on it. If I know that you crafted it or somebody crafted it, it has much more meaning, I think.   Barbara: Absolutely. It means a lot to me. Recently I had a client whose mother was a big jewelry collector and had a couple of Art Smith rings. The client had lost one of the rings in the pair in Provincetown. It went into the ocean, gone. I was able to hold the matching ring in my hand and look at it and see a signature, because the client wanted me to recreate this ring, which I did do. But the whole time I was making this ring, I kept imaging Art. The ring was covered in dots of silver and pink gold and yellow gold. It's a beautiful ring, very asymmetrical. The dots were raised like a half a millimeter off the band, and there were like 50 dots on this ring. So, I'm thinking of him making this ring in his studio. Every dot had to have a peg soldered onto the back before it was soldered onto the band. I did that 50 times, and I'm thinking, “My God, this guy was tenacious.” I had a lot of respect.   Sharon: How did you decide to start writing a blog?  You write a blog. How did that come about?   Barbara: I really enjoy writing, and there are things I wanted to say that the work couldn't say by itself. One of the things I've always been obsessed with since I was a child are charms. When I was five, Sherry Carr across the street from me had a shoebox full of charms, like the bubblegum charms, and I coveted that box. I was obsessed with that box. Every time I would see it, I would be like, “Show me the charms.” I wanted to knock Sherry out so I could get that charm. I started collecting charms at a very young age. They mean a lot to me, and they mean a lot to my clients. I talked about that in one of my blog posts. I think that was one of my first blogs, talking about charms and the meaning they hold for us. I think the spiritual side is important to me, the emotion you put to it and how it goes on the body. It's for the body.   Sharon: Well, you have very eclectic jewelry, very unique jewelry. Barbara, thank you so much for being here today.   Barbara: I loved it. Thanks so much.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: Why being a jewelry artist is like being an engineer How Barbara got her jewelry in the hands of famous rock-and-rollers like David Bowie and the Rolling Stones  Why Barbara doesn't separate her jewelry into women's and men's lines Why talent is only a small part of what it takes to become a successful jeweler About Barbara Klar Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright. Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day. New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer! Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky. Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video. Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains." Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter Blog Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Barbara Klar's jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara's celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.    Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Barbara began her work as a jeweler in 1980 in New York and has grown her business from there. She has a roster of celebrity clients. She has also developed a successful line of men's jewelry. Steve Jordan, who replaced Charlie Watts throughout a recent Rolling Stones tour, sported her jewelry throughout. Most recently, Barbara has become interested in reliquaries. She is also writing a book. We'll hear more about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the program.   Barbara: Thank you, Sharon. I'm so happy to be here talking about my favorite subject, jewelry.   Sharon: So glad to have you. I want to hear about everything going on. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you always like it?   Barbara: I was obsessed with my mother's jewelry box. She wasn't a huge jewelry collector, but she had some gemstone rings from the time my father and her spent in Brazil in the semiprecious capital, Rio. I just loved her selection and got obsessed.    Sharon: Did you decide you wanted to study jewelry then?   Barbara: No, I really didn't. My sister was the artist in the family, and I was always trying to play catch-up with her. Eventually I took a class at Akron University in Akron. Well, I made some jewelry in high school out of ceramics. I loved to adorn myself. I loved fashion. I loved pop culture. I was always looking at what people were wearing, and jewelry was so interesting to me because it was so intimate. It was something you could put on you body, like a ring. You could look at it all the time, and it became part of your persona, part of your identity. Sometimes it represented the birth of a child.    I used to go to the museum in Cleveland a lot, and I started seeing these top knuckle rings on women in the Medieval and Renaissance paintings. I ran home and went to my mother's jewelry box because I remembered she had my sister's baby ring in there. I put it on my little pinkie finger. She saw me wearing it and she got very upset, but I started scouting flea markets until I could find my own top knuckle ring. I wear a lot of them at this point in life.   Sharon: Wow! We'll have to have a picture of that. I can see your fingers. You have a ring on every finger, it looks like.   Barbara: Practically.   Sharon: So, you went to the Cleveland Institute of Art. Did you think you'd be an artist or a graphic designer? What did you think you'd do?   Barbara: Like I said, when I went to Akron University, I studied beginning jewelry. My teacher at the time noticed I had an aptitude, and he said, “If you really want to study jewelry making, you should go to the Cleveland Institute of Art.” At that point, I made an application and I got in.   Sharon: Did you study metalsmithing there? When you say jewelry making, what did you study?   Barbara: It was called metalsmithing. It was a metalsmithing program, and at that point in time, Cleveland had a five-year program. You didn't really hit your major until your third year, so you had a basic foundation of art history and drawing and painting. It was really a great education. I feel like I got a master's of fine arts rather than a bachelor of fine arts. When we studied, our thesis was to do a holloware project. A lot of people did tea sets. I did a fondue set and it took me two years to complete. It was a great training, but it was also very, very frustrating because it was a very male-dominated profession.   Sharon: Do you still have the fondue set?   Barbara: I do. I entered it into a show, and they dropped it and it got dented. I have yet to repair that. Over the years, the forks have gone missing, but I have incredible photographs of it, thank God.   Sharon: Wow! So, you were the only fondue set among all the tea sets.   Barbara: Yeah, I was. I had to be different.   Sharon: You opened your own place right after you graduated. Is that correct?   Barbara: Pretty much. All my friends were moving to New York City, so I said, “Hey, I'll go.” I'd been commuting there because my boyfriend at the time was Jim Jarmusch, and he had moved to Columbia to study. I had been going there off and on for a couple of years and when everybody moved to New York City. I was like, “Why not?” So, I went.   Sharon: How far is it from Cleveland or where you were going to school?    Barbara: It's about 500 miles.   Sharon: So, you would fly?   Barbara: No, I would drive. Those were the days you could find parking in the city.   Sharon: That was a long time ago. I'm impressed that you would open your own place right after you graduated. Some people tell me they knew they could never work for anybody else. Did you have that feeling, or did you just know you wanted your own place?   Barbara: No, I didn't. It took me a couple of years. I was in New York a couple of years. I moved in '79 and I opened my store in '84. One thing I did discover in those five years is that the jobs I did have—thank God my mother insisted that I should have secretarial skills to fall back on in high school. She said, “You're not going to depend on any man.” So, she got me those skills, and I became a very fast typist. I realized eventually that to save my creativity, I needed to have a job that was completely unrelated to jewelry work. I would work during the day, and I found a jewelry store where I could clean the studio in exchange for bench time. I started doing that. A lot of my friends were in rock-and-roll bands, and I started making them stage ware when I could work in the studio for free. It just evolved into that before I opened my store.   Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry business today. Do you still make it?   Barbara: Oh yes, I still make everything. I have one part-time assistant. I no longer wholesale. I do a little bit of gallery work. I wish there was more, but I consider myself semi-retired. I'm trying to work on my book. Mostly I do commission work, and I do maybe one or two shows a year. I like to say I have a cult following that keep me in business.   Sharon: When you say you have a cult following, do rock-and-rollers call you and say, “I need something for a show”? How does that work?   Barbara: Pretty much. I'm lucky enough to have been in this business since 1984, so a lot of my private clients, now their children are shopping with me and they're getting married. It's really nice. I feel very blessed to have that.   Sharon: Yeah, especially if it's a second generation.    Barbara: That means something to me because they have a different sense of style. The fact that they would find my work appealing moves me, makes my heart sing.   Sharon: Do you find that you go along with their sense of style? If you have one style you were doing for their parents, let's say, do you find it easy to adapt? Do you understand what they're saying?   Barbara: I do. I try to understand. First of all, I listen. I'm a good listener, but I'm still old-fashioned. I still like streetwear. I still love pop culture. A lot of times I'll ask them what they're looking for, and I can always tell. Even when I had my store, when somebody would walk into the store, I can get a sense of their style. I'm one of these designers who can design very different, very eclectic work, from simple and modern to intricate and whimsical. That used to be a problem for me in my early days because the powers that be—I had a rep. They were like, “Barbara, your work is so different. Why don't you try to make it coherent?” I couldn't. I tried to and I came up with beautiful lines, but for me, the joy is the variation and never knowing what I'm going to come up with.   Sharon: Is that what's kept your attention about jewelry?   Barbara: I think so. And being challenged by commission work and by getting an idea and trying to make it come to fruition. I actually think jewelry designers are as much architects and engineers as anything else, because you get an idea and you're like, “How am I going to make that happen?” That keeps me inspired and challenged.   Sharon: I remember watching a jeweler making a ring. This was several years ago, but they were talking about how jewelry is engineering because of the balance and all of that.    Barbara: Oh yes, totally. There was time when I really wanted to study CAD. I looked into it a bit, and I realized you also have to be able to draw in order to do CAD. It really helps if you have some knowledge of metalsmithing or jewelry making before you enter into a program like that, because you have to be able to visualize it and see how it's going to come together, how it's technically going to work. That interests me a lot.   Sharon: So, that's not a problem for you. You can do that in terms of visualizing or seeing how it would come together.   Barbara: It's a challenge. I'll find myself getting inspired by an idea and spending a couple of days or even a week thinking about how it's going to be engineered, how it's going to fit together. I made a tiara for the leader of a local performance group. He's very flamboyant, and he sings and has a beautiful band. I made him a crown out of a crystal chandelier that I got at a flea market. It was an engineering challenge. It was really fun.   Sharon: It sounds like it. I don't know if I could even imagine something like that. I wanted to ask you about something you said a little while ago, that you wished there were more galleries who wanted your work. What was it you said?   Barbara: I've been making my living doing limited-production items that sell very well. I have a classic piece—I call it the pirate, which is a lockdown mechanism earring that is kind of my bread and butter. But what I've been doing in my off time is making, like you mentioned in your opening, reliquaries or pieces that are more art than jewelry specifically. That's what I've been doing during Covid and everything. It's like a secret group of pieces I've been working on. It would be nice to have a gallery to show them in, but they're very unique and different, so I haven't found that yet.   Sharon: Tell us a little bit about the reliquaries. Tell us what they look like and what they're supposed to represent.   Barbara: I got obsessed with reliquaries when I was going to the Cleveland Institute of Art because right across the street was the Cleveland Museum of Art. I spent a lot of time there, and they have a fabulous armor hall for armor and a 17th century room that's filled with religious reliquaries. I was fascinated by how these fragments of bone or hair were incorporated into jewelry and what they represented as objects, how people would pray to these things or display these items with great meaning. It really moved me, and I started making them in college covertly. I continued that living through the AIDS crisis and now Covid.    I did some pieces recently for people who had lost their loved ones, incorporating pieces of hair or fragments of letters from their loved ones. I find that so meaningful because you have something to hold in your hands that gives you a link to this person whom you've lost. I made a beautiful reliquary for an ex of mine which was based on the dog they lost. Buddy was its name. I got a piece of the dog's tail when he died and made a little charm out of it. It was under a little window. Then I had another artist make this beautiful portrait of the dog when it was a baby. I made a little locket-type thing that could be put on your desk, or it could be hung on the wall or you could wear it. That's what I describe as tabletop jewelry.    Sharon: That's interesting. When I think of a reliquary, I think of exactly what you're saying, but without the jewelry—a piece of bone, hair, whatever, that people venerate.    Barbara: Yeah, absolutely.   Sharon: How do you incorporate it? You're saying for this piece you put it in a locket, but how else have you incorporated it?    Barbara: Pretty much lockets, things that open. I have another piece I made that was based on a monk. I found a little porcelain painter's image—it was about three inches tall—at a flea market years ago. I could hardly afford it. It was hand-painted porcelain. I kept it in my bench drawer for years, 20 years probably, and one day I pulled it out and thought, “You know, this monk needs to be seen.” So, I made a beautiful locket. It's probably about four inches long that you too can display it on your desk. It has little doors that open, and you can hang it on your wall or you can wear it. It's a very large piece, obviously, if you're going to wear it, but it's a statement piece and it's very precious.   I did this piece actually about 10 years ago after living through the AIDS crisis. My friend, one of my clients, looked at this monk and said, “I know who that is.” I did the research. It's on my blog. It is this monk who was from a very wealthy family that gave his life to treat lepers in Spain. He was the patron saint of healers. It touched me so deeply that I was creating this piece after everything I'd watched and lived through with Covid, with the AIDS crisis.   Sharon: Wow! Do pieces hit you as you're going through a flea market? Do they hit you and you say, “That would be perfect”? How is that?   Barbara: I'm a collector. I collect things. I'm fascinated. I love to look at things. One time at a flea market when I had my store in Soho, I found this—I didn't know what it was. It was like a little skeleton paw. It had no fur on it. It was a little skeleton about two inches long, probably a racoon's hands. I used to make incredible windows to get people to come into the store. It was Halloween. At the same flea market, I had gotten some of the old-fashioned glass milk containers that used to have the paper caps on top. So, I had gotten those, and I thought, “I'm going to do a Lizzie Borden window.” I made Lizzie this incredible watch fob, and hanging from that was this little skeleton paw inside the milk container. It was great. You never know. I sometimes hold onto things until it's like, “Whoa, O.K. Now's the time.”   Sharon: I'm imaging it. It's a drawerful of things, a shoebox full of things that you paw through and say, “Oh, this would be perfect.”   Barbara: Absolutely. That's the great thing about being an artist. You never know when it's going to hit. Like I tell people, I would never not have my studio inside my home, because you never know when you're going to be inspired and have to make something.

Paul and Donna are hired by Prince Waldo Charming to find his lost love - his only clue?  A shoe. Cast List Donna Bella - Julie Hoverson Paul Bette - Joel Harvey Goldy Taylor - Rhys Torres-Miller Prince Waldo - Morgan Brown Alexander - Will Watt Rumplestiltskin - Philemon Vanderbeck Miss Barbara - Robert Cudmore (YAP Audio) Espadrille - Reynaud LeBoeuf Music by  Somewhere Off Jazz Street      Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Julie Hoverson "What kind of a place is it? Why it's a private detective's office in a time sort of like the 1940s, can't you tell?" ******************************************** PUMPS AND SPECTATORS - B&B Investigates, episode 2 Cast: Announcer Donna Bella Paul Bette Goldy Tailor - secretary Prince Waldo Charming Baron Alexander/Cindy Espadrille gruff "stepsister" Barbara, housemother/fairy godmother OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a Detective Agency, can't you tell?  MUSIC Scene 1.    SOUND    PHONE RINGS, PICKS UP GOLDY    B&B Investigations, may I help you?  [beat, then turns belligerent]  Look, it ain't gonna happen.  ... No.  Because the boss don't help no one find tarts.  Nope.  Never. SOUND    HANGS UP DONNA    Another missing good time girl? GOLDY    Nahhh.  Queen of hearts.  Ya know. DONNA    Oh.  Patticakes.  Well, if anything real comes in, I can handle it.  [annoyed] Just 'cause Paul's not back from the enchanted brute convention as early as he was supposed to be doesn't mean the office shuts down.  He may be off doing who knows what with his furred and fanged cronies, but I'm sure he knows he can trust me to take on whatever-- MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER Scene 2.    GOLDY    Man, she had it bad.  A case of sea green envy for what the boss might be getting up to with his old college chums.  So what they were mostly frogs, bears, and the occasional walrus - she'd heard the sort of thing they used to get up to-- DONNA    What are you doing? GOLDY    Filling in.  The boss should be back any minute, and then -- DONNA    Look, I don't need anyone else horning in on my - our voiceovers. GOLDY    I just figured you might not want to be the one pouring your heart out in a narrative conceit.... DONNA    So you thought you'd pour it out for me?  [sarcastic] Thanx. Scene 3.    SOUND    DOOR OPENS, JINGLE OF BELL MUSIC ENDS ALEXANDER    Pardon the interruption, ladies.  May I announce Prince Waldo Charming? SOUND    STRIDES REGALLY IN, FOLLOWED BY AN ENDLESS ENTOURAGE. DONNA     Did you have to bring the whole box of toy soldiers?  The office is only so big. ALEXANDER    [consults with the prince, then]  Atten-hut!  About face!  March. SOUND     ENDLESS FEET LEAVE AGAIN ALEXANDER    The prince apologizes for the intrusion, but he prefers to keep this as informal and ‑ahem- low-profile as possible. DONNA    Sure.  I can see that.  Why don't you step into the office over here? MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER Scene 4.    DONNA    So this was the infamous prince Waldo - the biggest royal catch of the last eight fishing seasons, and far too wily to let himself get hooked.  Every princess, rich society dame, screen siren, and various other lesser gold diggers had set their bait for him, and he swam serenely past them all.  I'm not among the anglers myself, since I already had my own trophy in sight- my own partner, Paul Bette, away now drinking with his cronies and doing whatever they please in the name of "old times". GOLDY    [side of the mouth] You're staring. DONNA    Huh?  GOLDY    [side of the mouth] He's about to get a restraining order. DONNA    Oh, um--  Office, right. MUSIC OUT Scene 5.    SOUND    OFFICE DOOR CLOSES DONNA    Well?  What can I do for you? PRINCE    Coffee? DONNA    Certainly. SOUND    CLICK OF INTERCOM GOLDY     A package just came for you. DONNA    Busy now.  Goldy?  Three coffees, please?  One too hot, and two just right?  Yes. SOUND    INTERCOM OUT DONNA    So, what brings you to a private investigator? PRINCE    I don't think we need to discuss it until he arrives.  DONNA    [barely polite]  What?  [exasperated noise]  He is due back soon, but I can help you just as well.  My name's on the door too.  Well, my initial, anyway. PRINCE    [bland, disinterested] Oh?  Lovely.  I hope you don't mind, but I find this is really a masculine sort of problem. DONNA    There are potions for that, you know. ALEXANDER    [incensed]  Young lady, what are you intimating? DONNA    That maybe he doesn't live up to his name? ALEXANDER    What's wrong with Waldo? DONNA    I meant Charming. PRINCE    I'll have you know-- SOUND    DOOR SLAMS OPEN PAUL    Coffee?  Donna?  Why don't you let me deal with these good gentlemen.  DONNA    What? PAUL    [muttered] Go to voiceover. Scene 6.    MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    [spitting words] So I left the boys to it. PAUL    [vo] What Donna didn't know was that I'd been listening on the intercom and knew she'd been about to scratch the eyes out of a very powerful prince-- DONNA    It wasn't his eyes I'd be aiming for-- PAUL    And it wouldn't do us any good to get on his wrong side. DONNA    Does he have a right one? PAUL    So rather than subject her to more of the prince's royaler-than-thou attitude, I decided to step in and let her off the hook. DONNA    [softening] Oh! PAUL    Scoot. DONNA    Leave the intercom on.  [blows him a kiss] VOICEOVER MUSIC FADES Scene 7.    DONNA    I'll just scoot then and go get my nails done or something, shall I? PRINCE    While nothing could possibly enhance your already considerable beauty, I'm certain that's precisely what you need.  [kisses her hand] SOUND    FOOTSTEPS, DOOR Scene 8.    DONNA    Yup.  Definitely need to get my nails sharpened. GOLDY    Come on.  Let's hear what they have to say-- PRINCE    [on intercom]  Bit of a temper, has she, that girl? PAUL    [on intercom, fading to normal voice halfway through]  You don't know the half of it.  She's passionate about everything. PRINCE    Ah.  Well, then.  Let me get down to the problem at hand.  I think you will understand, Mr., um-- PAUL    Bette.  Paul Bette.  Just call me Paul if you like. PRINCE    Paul.  Quite.  And you may call me Prince Charming. PAUL    Charmed.  [waits for a laugh, nothing]  Ah.  Your case? PRINCE    Well, I have a passing acquaintance with an old school chum of yours, Prince Freddie Grenouille, and he says you are top of the line - both for cleverness and for ... ahem... discretion. PAUL    Absolutely.  Anything you say won't leave this room. PRINCE    Good.  I'm sorry to take so long to come to the point here, but this is a very delicate and stressful situation, and I am truly truly desperate. PAUL    Go on. Scene 9.    MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER PAUL    I'd seen it all, from paternity suits to clearing up the occasional "carriage under the influence" charge.  And the royals were often the worst.  They could get away with pretty much anything, as long as they were willing to risk the occasional fairy charm or gypsy curse.  MUSIC CHANGES DONNA    But Charming had never been a "bad boy" - at least not in any way that made it into the scandal rags-- PAUL    Hey, what's with the-- DONNA    My new voiceover music just arrived by special messenger.  I'm trying out a couple of different pieces.  What do you think? PAUL    Um... DONNA    You don't like it.  PAUL    It's a little ... perky. DONNA    Fine.  Go ahead and finish up.  PAUL    Are you ...annoyed? DONNA    [snapping] No.  VOICEOVER MUSIC CHANGES BACK TO NORMAL PAUL    Charming did have a nearly spotless record.  He was an athlete - Greco-roman wrestling, fencing, and polo, a supporter of the arts - even acted in a few charity plays from time to time.  A general bon vivant.  No dark side, or so everyone thought... VOICEOVER MUSIC OUT Scene 10.    PRINCE    [vibrant] So when I danced with her last night, it was like we'd known each other for ever! PAUL    Did you happen to catch her name? PRINCE    Only Cindy.  When I asked her last name, she merely smiled and changed the subject - she was so alluring! PAUL    And you want me to-- PRINCE    [desperate] Find her.  I must see her again.  You can't possibly understand the pressure a thirty-uh-something prince is under to find a bride.  PAUL    I can see that would be awkward. PRINCE    Women are constantly being shoved at me from all sides, and - frankly?  I can't stand most of them.  They're such insipid little birds.  They tell me how fascinating I am, and then proceed to show they know nothing at all about me.  They profess to like all the things I like, then don't even know how to spell jai-alai, let alone play it.  PRINCE    [continued] I've spent years carefully keeping clear of marriage, since it would mean I'd have to spend my entire life with  a silly little twit, and would be obligated to listen to her chirp. PAUL    And this Cindy? PRINCE    [raptured] Completely different.  She dressed marvelously, but didn't feel compelled to give me the names of all her tailors.  She danced like a dream, but didn't demand I take her for one more spin around the floor, or suggest we walk out on the balcony.  And when she said she liked the things I like, she - she actually did! PAUL    Can you give me a description? PRINCE    About my height - in heels - long glossy dark chestnut hair - a few shades darker than your young lady's auburn - rather like Alexander's here - huge luminous eyes, and long artist's fingers on very strong hands. PAUL    Hmm.  Alexander, was it? ALEXANDER    [slightly panicky] Sir? PAUL    Can you add anything? ALEXANDER    I wasn't--  I was with a sick friend last night. PAUL    Ah.  That's awkward.  [to prince] Do you have any other clue to her identity? PRINCE    Oh, yes.  Alexander, the bag. ALEXANDER    Sir. SOUND    BAG PLOPPED ONTO DESK, SOMETHING PULLED OUT PAUL    A... shoe. PRINCE    She ran away at the stroke of midnight, and left it behind. PAUL    Can I keep this? PRINCE    But - she'll need it, when I find her again. PAUL    I mean to go over it for clues.  I'll get it back to you. PRINCE    [sigh of relief] Well, yes, then.  I thought-- nevermind. PAUL    I have my own female troubles - I have no plans to try and horn in on yours. ALEXANDER    You think any woman would throw over [too warm] such a Charming price, for a big brute of a private eye? PAUL    [chastened] No.  [tries to chuckle]  Course not.  But I do have to warn you, sire-- PRINCE    Yes? PAUL    This girl.  If she deliberately made herself such a mystery, there may very well be a good reason. PRINCE    like what? PAUL    She could be anything - a commoner, a ghost, a transformed hedgehog-- ALEXANDER    Nonsense! PAUL    The point is, you need to face reality and understand that there could be something very shady about her. PRINCE    I don't care.  She's the only woman I've ever felt this way about, and I plan to marry her - come what may.  You find her for me.  I shall handle the rest. Scene 11.    MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER PAUL    Chauvinist or not, Charming was determined, in that way that only princes in love can be.  It was that particular brand of love that drives one to climb unclimbable mountains and fight unkillable dragons, and what do they get at the end?  Married. MUSIC CHANGES DONNA    Like Charming said, most princesses were simpering idiots with more hair than brains, and I should know - I may not be one myself, but I went to the same prep school. PAUL    This?  You decided on this? DONNA    Give me a break.  I can't tell how they're gonna sound until I try them out. PAUL    This is awful. DONNA    Fine.  Let me see the shoe, and we'll go on from there. MUSIC OUT Scene 12.    SOUND    SHOE SET ON DESK PAUL    There. DONNA    Nice. SOUND    HE SITS IN CHAIR PAUL    Do you think it's a little... large? DONNA    A bit bigger than mine. PAUL    Really, I guess I never really-- DONNA    Look at my feet? PAUL    [leering a bit] I never make it down that far... SOUND    SHE SITS UP ON DESK DONNA    Really? PAUL    Really.  [slight growl] DONNA    Question.  When I left, did the prince and his friend -uh- make it down that far? PAUL    What do you mean? DONNA    What were they looking at? PAUL    They just watched you leave. DONNA    I didn't hear you growl-- PAUL    Well, of course--  [suddenly worried] Oh-- you actually notice when I do that? DONNA    [dreamy]  Of course I do.  I don't mind when you-- um, get annoyed on my behalf. PAUL    [deep breath]  I think we're getting a bit off track here. DONNA    Right.  Shoe. PAUL    No, left.  Shoe.  Anything? DONNA    It's a Dolce-geppeto.  They're pricey, but not extortionate.  Too bad she didn't mention her dressmaker - that would have been a much better clue.  PAUL    Well, how many places sell these shoes? DONNA    Assuming she's local, maybe six of the big boutiques downtown. PAUL    You wanna take those, then?  Go ask questions? DONNA    Um... No.  PAUL    You don't want to go shopping for shoes?  I mean, [scared] you're going to leave me to hit all these fancy ladies' shoe shops? DONNA    I have some ideas of my own to follow up on, and the shoe isn't going anywhere.  Tell you what, if you don't get a hit on the shoe in 24 hours, I'll take it.  PAUL    But - but how do I even ask? DONNA    Here. SOUND    INTERCOM BEEP DONNA    Goldy, could you come in here? SOUND    DOOR GOLDY    Yeah? DONNA    Take this to Rose & Snow's and ask for the style number.  Then ask them if they have any record of someone buying this shoe in this size in the last two weeks. GOLDY    I don't do legwork.  I ain't as young as I used to be. DONNA    Buy yourself a pair of shoes - on the office - while you're there. GOLDY    Gimme that! SOUND    SNATCH, DOOR SLAMS PAUL    [brightening] So I could just send her round to every store? DONNA    Not at a pair of shoes per trip.  We'd run through our entire commission. PAUL    What? DONNA    I said they weren't cheap.  One pair we can add in as a legitimate expense - past that...  [shrug]  Once you get the style nunmber, you can phone the rest.  Well, I'm heading out. SOUND    JUMPS DOWN OFF DESK DONNA    Need anything? PAUL    [a bit lost, watching her]  Um, no... DONNA    Chow! Scene 13.    MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER PAUL    Wo.  [deep breath]  I thought over the content of our discussion and realized there was something she was keeping back - that secret smile, the strange questions - but while we were talking I couldn't take my eyes off her, sitting on my desk like that, one silk-seamed leg crossed over the other.  [growl]  She doesn't even seem to notice the effect she has on me, and I'm not sure whether that makes it worse or better - if I tell her, she might just stop, and then I won't even get this much of a-- MUSIC CHANGES AGAIN DONNA    What is this, a beer garden?  They sent me the wrong box, I'm sure of it. PAUL    It's not so bad - for a polka. DONNA    Hmph.  You done yet? PAUL    Uh, yeah - I'll talk to a few folks while I'm waiting for Goldy to get back. DONNA    [beat] There are things men just don't see, and which it's probably better they don't.  A picture was painting itself in my head, and while it wasn't a particularly tricky answer to the problem of find the girl, it also wasn't likely to have the happiest of endings.  Why?  I added up a size 11 shoe, a lady who could spell jai alai and a prince who didn't stare at my backside as I left the room, and I got a very queer answer indeed. MUSIC     STARTS TO FADE DONNA    And it was an answer I wasn't sure my wonderful he-man partner would be at all happy about, which is why I went alone to a boarding house we used to rather snottily call Gamma Alpha Ypsilon, back in my own sorority days.  SOUND    FEET ON PORCH, KNOCK ON DOOR Scene 14.    ESPADRILLE    Yes? DONNA    Hi, I'm a P.I. and I'm-- SOUND     DOOR SLAM DONNA    [sigh] SOUND    KNOCK ON DOOR DONNA    I'm not going away.  You can talk to me, or you can talk to my partner, and he ain't gonna understand. SOUND    DOOR FLUNG OPEN BARBARA    What do you want? DONNA    I'm looking for someone, and I think she might be known here. BARBARA    For this you come around annoying my girls?  Scaring poor Espadrille half to death? DONNA    I have no interest in making trouble for anybody.  Please.  I just have some questions and would rather not shout them to the entire world.  Can we talk? BARBARA    [deciding] You tell me what you need, I decide if I'll ask anyone else.  Come on - my parlor's over here. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER Scene 15.    DONNA    So I outlined the problem, and Miss Barbara was very upset by the whole situation - she said she was sure Cindy wasn't one of her ...boarders, but that she would ask around.  She didn't give me much hope, though. Scene 16.    MUSIC OUT BARBARA    Tell the poor boy it will never work.  Two worlds, all that.  He would have to be willing and able to take her as she is - warts and all, as they say - and the chances of that are - pfft! DONNA    You might be surprised. BARBARA    Honey, I ain't been surprised in years. VOICEOVER MUSIC CUTS IN Scene 17.    PAUL    Were you using the old music again? DONNA    I ...forgot.  Sorry.  But the new stuff is pretty cringe-worthy. PAUL    Keep trying, sweetheart.  You'll find something. DONNA    I hope so.  Did you need the voiceover? PAUL    Only if you're finished.  DONNA    [sigh] Yeah, I guess so.  I need to think. PAUL    So I checked with the photographers from last night's big bash - and found that the mystery just deepened.  This Cindy was a slick sister - seemed to always know where the snappers were and managed to keep her back to them all night.  Only once did they catch half a profile, head and shoulders with just a glimpse of the side of her face - I told him to blow it up and send it over, along with a dozen of the dress, figuring maybe Donna could play name that dressmaker.  Then I decided to catch up with an old friend... MUSIC OUT Scene 18.    SOUND    BANGING ON A DOOR RUMPY    [muffled, hung over] Bugger off! SOUND    CLINKING OF COINS PAUL    One, two, three-- SOUND    DOOR IS FLUNG OPEN RUMPY    If it ain't me old pal, Bette.  Git yourself inside here - that daylight's too damn bright. SOUND    SHUFFLING FEET PAUL    It's dark out. SOUND    A COUPLE OF STEPS RUMPY    Then what am I doing asleep?  SOUND    BONK PAUL    Ow! RUMPY     [amused] Gotta watch them rafters, you old beanstalk you. PAUL    [strained, cause he's bending over]  I need you to find out about someone for me.  A woman. RUMPY    Your sweet partner?  She running around with other ...dicks? PAUL    What?  What do you--? RUMPY    Nothing.  Just wondering maybe she plying her trade - and I do mean detecting, no offense, [sarcastic] my friend - elsewhere. PAUL    Of course she's not.  She wouldn't-- RUMPY     You're probably right.  So who did you want me to check over? SOUND    CORK OUT OF JUG PAUL    [musing] There wouldn't be time, anyway - though she didn't want to take on the shoe-- RUMPY    [gulping, then] Whazzat? PAUL    Nothing.  Um.  Right.  A woman who was spotted at the Prince's June Glam ball last night.  No one seems to know who she was, and she didn't, apparently, have an invite. RUMPY    [way sarcastic] Yeah, one look at me, and you just know I'm up on the society pages.  PAUL    I don't think this dame's "society."  I think she's working an angle on the prince, and I want to know if there's a whisper anywhere.  RUMPY    What's in it for me? PAUL    This, now-- SOUND    CLINK OF TWO COINS PAUL    And twice that if you can deliver. RUMPY    C'mon, Bette, old buddy, old pal - I'm gonna haveta drink around for this, maybe float some people.  Play the game. PAUL    Keep your receipts. SOUND    A COUPLE STEPS, THEN SOUND    BONK! PAUL    Ow! MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER Scene 19.    PAUL    I started the wheels in motion, but nothing would turn up for a couple of days - if ever.  [beat]  Donna?  Are you there?  [beat, then worried]  I figured she just didn't like the case - she certainly didn't seem to take a shine to that prince.  He was handsome, in that tall, cold, blonde princely sort of way, and she always says she hates those guys.  [beat]  Donna? DONNA    Busy now.  I'll fill in my part later. PAUL    Where are you?  Maybe I can come by and help? DONNA    Nope.  Just interviewing the prince's friend.  You go ahead and keep the--  Oops, gotta go! PAUL    The friend?  Dark haired, willowy, handsome, not so tall.  Not a good train of thought to catch, since like any other express, it runs non-stop.  [up]  I'll just go back to the office then, shall I? DONNA    [chuckling breaks off] Hmm?  Oh, sure.  See you in a bit. PAUL    [growls] MUSIC OUT Scene 20.    SOUND    DOOR SLAMS OPEN HARD GOLDY    I see someone's in a bright and shiny mood. PAUL    No calls. SOUND    STOMPING FEET, OFFICE DOOR YANKS OPEN, THEN SLAMS VOICEOVER MUSIC - new tune, not too bad. GOLDY    What did she do? DONNA    What? GOLDY    Oops - I'll get out of-- DONNA    Wait, what did who do? [waits a second]  Goldy?  Chicken.  Fine.  Music hold. SOUND    MUSIC CUTS SUDDENLY SOUND    TELEPHONE RINGS GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may--  DONNA    [filter] What were you saying? GOLDY    Oh.  Boss is kind of upset is all.  Figured, um... DONNA    [filter, warning] What? GOLDY    Well, when he starts slamming doors, he's usually annoyed... um... with-- you? DONNA    [filter, long breath to get her composure back] I am in the middle of something, but-- Soon as I'm back, we're going to have a-- GOLDY    Oops - call coming in.  buh-Bye! SOUND    PHONE HANGS UP Scene 21.    ALEXANDER    Were you finished with me?  DONNA    Not quite, but I don't think we can talk here.  I need you to come to my suite at the Andersen Arms.  Tonight at 7 p.m.  Alone. ALEXANDER    Really, miss Bella, I don't think-- DONNA    Sweetie, you're not my type.  But we need to talk somewhere a bit more private.  ALEXANDER    [cautious and concerned] Talk? SOUND    SCRIBBLING A NOTE ON PAPER DONNA    It's regarding the welfare of the prince, and you know how people leap on-- SOUND    HANDING PAPER OVER ALEXANDER    Hmm?  [reads, gasps, the a bit frightened] Yes, of course.  I'll-- I'll be there. Scene 22.    NEW MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER - KIND OF ROMANCEY DONNA     Now to figure out how to tell Paul I wanted to handle a denouement on my own.  GOLDY    You want I should tell him? DONNA    Will you stop jumping in on the voiceovers?  We have enough trouble sharing them as it is. GOLDY    Fine.  I was gonna tell you where the boss is.  But since you obviously have everything well in hand-- DONNA    Where is he?  [beat]  Goldy?  Hold. Scene 23.    MUSIC CUTS OUT SOUND    PHONE RINGS DONNA    Come on... PAUL    [on phone] Hello? DONNA    Oh, drat. PAUL    [on phone] What?  Donna? DONNA    Paul, I-- PAUL    [on phone] I've found Cindy. DONNA    You have?  Where? PAUL    [on phone] Well, a good solid lead.  Should have my hands on her by this evening, but she's a tough cookie to nail down.  DONNA    Crumbs! PAUL    [on phone] What? DONNA    If you nailed down a cookie.  Nevermind. PAUL    [on phone] Why are we talking on the phone?  Why don't you just come on into the office? DONNA    I - I've got a terrible headache.  Think I'll go home and lie down.  Be fresh in the morning.  Bye! PAUL    [on phone] Donna?  [normal]  Donna? SOUND    HANGS UP THE PHONE PAUL    Damn.  Headache, my eye. SOUND    PHONE RINGS, keeps ringing PAUL    Goldy?  You wanna get this? GOLDY    [off] Nah - it's probably her again. PAUL    But it's your job to answer the phone... GOLDY    [off] I'm on my break. SOUND    PHONE PICKED UP PAUL    [sighs, then tries to mimic Goldy's voice] B&B Investigations, how can I help you? GOLDY    [off] Oy... RUMPY    [on phone]  You got a cold, Bette?  Or just drinking alum? PAUL    [normal]  Stuff it.  What you got, Rumpy? RUMPY    [on phone]  [chuckles]  What you got for me? PAUL    I'll meet you tomorrow. RUMPY    [on phone]  Nuh-uh.  [sighs]  My expense account musta grown from magic beans - it's just about sky level now. PAUL    We didn't-- RUMPY    [on phone]  Oh, it'll be worth it.  Bring your wallet to the Andersen Arms right away.  I'm in the lobby. SOUND    PHONE HANGS UP Scene 24.    MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER - STILL THE LAST MUSIC DONNA WAS USING, ROMANTIC PAUL    What the--?  This is... Donna's music?  [gulps]  The Andersen Arms was a classic old building on Mermaid street, and Donna had lived there for-- RUMPY    Did you bring the clinkage? PAUL    I'm not there yet.  This is still the voiceover. RUMPY    [chuckles] Nice grooves.  You going soft, pal.  PAUL    It's Donna's new music. RUMPY    So she's going soft? Hmmm... PAUL    Look, I'll be there in a second! RUMPY    No skin off my nose. PAUL    [sigh] Fine.  I arrived.  Done. MUSIC FADES OUT Scene 25.    RUMPY    Took you long enough.  Cross my palm, and I'll tell you all. SOUND    COINS CLINK RUMPY    That's what I'm talking about.  I've got one interesting tidbit-- PAUL    Shh.  Hide! RUMPY    What? PAUL    That fellow, who just skulked in.  I know him. RUMPY    Friend of yours? PAUL    A client.  RUMPY    Hmm.  Is this a consultation? PAUL    Hold that thought.  I'll be back to get my coins' worth. SOUND    STORMS IN THROUGH REVOLVING DOOR RUMPY    [going off] I'll start you an account. ORIGINAL VOICEOVER MUSIC STARTS PAUL    Nope.  [beat]  Go away.  [beat] I'm not saying anything. MUSIC ENDS IN A HUFF Scene 26.    SOUND    ELEVATOR DOORS OPEN SOUND    HEAVY STRIDES, KNOCKING ON A DOOR DONNA    [off]  Huh?  Hello? PAUL    Open up. DONNA    [dramatic gasp] Paul?  SOUND    DOOR OPENS, HE PUSHES IN DONNA    What?  What's wrong with you? PAUL    It's highly unprofessional, you know. DONNA    Well, I should say so! PAUL    To just waltz in here like this-- DONNA    Ye-e-es. PAUL    And--  What? DONNA    Are you apologizing? PAUL    What?  No.  Where is he?  I saw him in the lobby-- DONNA    [gasp]  You came here because--  You thought - [gasp]! PAUL    What am I supposed to think? DONNA    I solved the case, but you're not going to like the answer. PAUL    What makes you think I won't? SOUND    WATER RUNS IN THE BATHROOM PAUL    [growls] DONNA    That's why.  Look, I was about to do the big unveil, but-- PAUL    [plaintive] Without me? DONNA    [softening] You'll understand.  Can you keep quiet? PAUL    Of course I can.  SOUND    BLOWDRYER RUNS PAUL    [growls] DONNA    Hmm? PAUL    [sheepish] O-k. SOUND    KNOCK ON THE DOOR DONNA    That will be the prince. SOUND    FEET, DOOR OPENS Scene 27.    DONNA    Come in, your royal highness. SOUND    HESITANT FOOTSTEPS PAUL    No entourage? DONNA    Ssh.  Thank you for coming alone. PRINCE    [upset] I haven't much choice.  Alexander is nowhere to be found. PAUL    Your pal from the office? PRINCE    We've been chums since childhood.  I feel rather exposed without him along. DONNA    It must have been awkward, then, that he couldn't make it to the ball. PRINCE    It was the first he ever missed.  Too bad,  I think he'll like Cindy. DONNA    They probably have a lot in common. PAUL    [suspicious]  They do...? DONNA    You better have a seat, sire.  This is likely to get a little awkward. PRINCE    But have you found my Cindy? DONNA    Yes. PAUL    [quiet] Yes? PRINCE    Where is she? SOUND    DOOR OPENS, HEAVY FOOTSTEPS BARBARA    Right here.  Come on out, honey. SOUND    SLOW BARE FOOTSTEPS SOUND    CHAIR ALMOST TOPPLES AS PRINCE SPRINGS UP PRINCE    Darling! CINDY    [vexed] Oh, dear!  Why did you bring him here? DONNA    Hold on!  Sorry I didn't warn you, Cindy.  Sit down, your highness. PRINCE    But my darling, don't you want--? I thought we-- we clicked. PAUL    [musing quietly, gets it] Like they'd known each other for years.  [groan, gets it]  Oh. DONNA    Shh.  PRINCE    But you're the only woman I've ever loved. CINDY    And you're about to despise me. PRINCE    That could never happen. CINDY    Yes it can.  [voice lowers to Alexander, then ruefully]  I'm just lucky you're a bit nearsighted, Waldo. PRINCE    What?  Alexander? BARBARA    She prefers Cindy when she's all dolled up. CINDY    [Cindy again] I really do. PRINCE    But... is it a spell? CINDY    No.  It's just-- BARBARA    Go on, hon.  There's no going back now. CINDY    I could probably spin you a grand story about being enchanted, or cursed, but none of it is true.  Unless you count love as some kind of magic. PRINCE    Love? CINDY    I never meant it to be more than one night.  One chance to dance... with you.  But you - you just had to [wistful] go all manly and try and find me!  Barbara convinced me it's better to let you know, rather than leave you searching forever. BARBARA    Trust me, he'd eventually find some clue to who you are.  The higher the hopes, the harder the fall, and all that. CINDY    Don't worry, I've already - I mean Alexander has already - applied for a quest permit, and I plan to absent myself from court for a decade or so. PRINCE    I say - I'm the prince here.  Don't I get any say? CINDY    Yes.  [deep breath, bracing herself]  BARBARA    [comforting] I'm right here. DONNA    Me too. CINDY    Go ahead. PRINCE    I-- I suppose I never thought about you that way, Alexander. CINDY    [wilting] Of course. PRINCE    Until I saw you at the ball. CINDY    [startled, perking up a bit] Oh? PRINCE    Perhaps there is some magic.  To love. CINDY    But you don't want me.  I mean you want this-- the surface-- when underneath, I'm-- PRINCE    My best friend?  What's so wrong?  I've met far too many beautiful girls I can't stand to be near.  You do something to me. CINDY    [gasps ecstatically] [their voices fade for a bit] Scene 28.    DONNA    I wish it could work for them. PAUL    Really?  It seems an odd match.  Really odd. DONNA    What's wrong with an odd match?  Love's all that matters.  Though I do have one concern.  Babs? BARBARA    [sniffling a bit at the romantic moment]  What?  Yes?  Oh, go on - I'm all verklempt. DONNA    I get choked up too.  But, what about when they're supposed to--you know-- have kids? BARBARA    Oh that's a piece of cake.  There's always a baby in a peach pit, or I have this deal with the marsh king.  You'd be surprised how often these kinds of things happen. PRINCE    [fading back in] But how will it ever work? PAUL    [clears throat]  May I? DONNA    What?  Really? PAUL    I'm not one to stand in the way of true love.  You said Alexander applied for a quest permit - no reason he shouldn't go, disappearing from court, about the same time Prince Charming-- PRINCE    Oh, you can call me Waldo. PAUL    Thank you, your highness.  [back to the point] At the same time that Waldo meets Alexander's distant cousin Cindy, who sneaked into town to surprise him and ran into the prince instead.  DONNA    Oh, and, if you can, you should do a little bit of almost being seen together, which will take a little quick change action, but we can help with that, right Barbara? BARBARA    Quick change is practically my middle name. PAUL    Alexander can send a letter now and then, eventually rescue a damsel in distress, and settle down in a kingdom far far away.  PRINCE    There's only one thing left to do! DONNA    Oh? PRINCE    I hope you remembered to bring that shoe.  It will have to do until we can get rings... BARBARA    [choked up] I'll start planning the reception! Scene 29.    OLD VOICEOVER MUSIC PAUL    So, the prince found his true love.  DONNA    Love's funny that way. PAUL    And all Alexander's-- DONNA    --Cindy's-- PAUL    --years of devotion paid off. DONNA    Waldo better appreciate all he's-- she's done. PAUL    There's just not enough pronouns-- DONNA    --Particularly since some of your friends are definitely "it"s. PAUL    Hah. Hah. DONNA    Speaking of those, how was the enchanted beasts reunion? PAUL    [down] Fine.  Every year there's less of us left - too many with their curses broken, or married with better things to do. DONNA    [hopeful]  It's in the air.  Love, I mean. PAUL    [growls, close] Yeah... [backing off] I mean, they make a cute couple... GOLDY    [exasperated] Oh, shut up and kiss her already. PAUL & DONNA    What? GOLDY    You heard me.  Think quick - I'm on double overtime just to be in this voiceover. CLOSING  

The one where the Doctor has way too much fun....a perfect serial to introduce Newbies to the First Doctor! Commentary and analysis for Doctor Who's  "The Romans"Team TARDIS has been chilling in a Roman villa when the Doctor and Vicki get bored and go to Rome to meet Nero! But there is conspiracy afoot. Meanwhile, Ian and Barbara are captured by slave traders and suddenly must survive their very own adventure. DOCTOR: On my arrival, I was rather under the impression that there was some sort of intrigue going on here, hmm?NERO: Well, nobody said anything to me. Nobody said a word and I am always informed of intrigues!______BARBARA: Oh, it isn't fair, Ian, is it?IAN: No it is not. Still, got a funny side to it, hasn't it.BARBARA: Yes.____William Hartnell, take a bow! We'll chat about how brilliant Dennis Spooner is at dark comedy, the horror the comedy conceals, how the lyre-scene reveals the truth, and what these pure historicals can do better than New Who historicals....NEXT TIME:  Hannah & Brianna Talk Doctor Who--a special podcast in which my friend Hannah and I chat over The Romans some more!The following week we will continue on with The Web Planet. Special thanks to Cathlyn "Happigal" Driscoll for providing the beautiful artwork for this podcast. You can view her work at https://www.happigal.com/ Do feel free to get in touch to share the love of all things Doctor Who: throughthevortexpodcast@gmail.com

This is the 6th annual episode with Barbara. Andrew and Barbara talk about making change. The challenges in trying to notice the end before feels like it has gone too far past us. The talk about the last year and the grand changes that are coming for both of them in 2020.  They also recorded a bonus for the Patreon on how to tell if something is fate or not. You can get access to that and all the great bonus material by signing up over here.  You can catch all the previous episodes here on my website. Or look up episodes 22, 44, 58, 72, and 90 where you listen to your podcast.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Barbara through her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. This week I am catching up with Barbara Moore just before the end of the year for our annual podcast episode where we check in on what's going on, what's changed, and, [00:00:17] you know, talk a lot about the shifting perspectives in our spiritual lives and practices and so on. You know, it's hard to imagine people don't know who you are, Barbara, certainly anyone in the tarot world, but for those who don't, who are you? [00:00:32] BARBARA: Oh, I forgot about this part of the interview. Yes. My name is Barbara Moore. I've been playing with tarot for, I don't know, maybe 30 years now. I'm probably best known for [00:00:47] a couple of things: one, creating tarot decks and writing books to go with them, and a few stand alone books as well, and I'm also the tarot acquisitions editor for Llewellyn, and I sometimes do some work for Lo Scarabeo as well. [00:01:02] And I teach here and there. ANDREW: Awesome. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, you know, one of the things that I wanted to talk about with you was, it seems like [00:01:17] for me, everything's changed, you know, since our last podcast, I have gotten divorced, and my ex has moved out. I had a fire that burned down my store, and I have since reopened and, you know, opened a studio [00:01:32] to see clients out of and opened a new store. And, so for me, it's been a massive year of change, you know, perhaps unsurprisingly, if you follow the tarot birth card, year card business, as my death card just ended [00:01:47] at the beginning of the month, but it's also been a year of or at least a time of change for you too, right? Like you're also, maybe not quite where I am on the other side of it, but really sort of [00:02:02] setting in motion a bunch of change for yourself as well. Right? BARBARA: [00:02:17] That is absolutely true. The cycle of change, I would say it started back in 2016, and it has ushered in a period of challenge and becoming stronger and having things ripped away to find out what really matters, [00:02:33] and, as your listeners, if they've been listening to our conversations know, that two years ago, I moved to California, my wife and I moved to California, and we've been having a great adventure as [00:02:48] well as a lot of challenges and struggles. And we have recently come to the conclusion that this has been a really fun adventure, and we're grateful that we had it, but it's time for the adventure to be over, and so we [00:03:03] will be moving sometime this summer. So that is a really big change that we can talk about. It's not like having a store burn down or having a divorce, a relationship, a marriage end, [00:03:20] but our relationship also has gone through some struggles, luckily came out the other end stronger and better, richer and deeper, but it's still, we're both like two different people now, so it's [00:03:35] almost like a new relationship because we're learning to be together in new ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know and one of the . . . one of the things that people always say is something like what you said, whenever they start talking with [00:03:50] their own things, like, it's not as bad as your situation or whatever, right? And, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, maybe, right, like I get that, but also I think it's . . . I think it's really real, [00:04:05] how difficult struggle is for people, right? And you know, I mean there is tragedy and loss and people dying and all, you know, all those kinds of things that you know, no joke are very difficult. Right? [00:04:21] But I think that it's really important to not diminish our own struggles too, especially in the face of that. Right? Like it's, there's no scale. There's no competition, you know? And maybe other people [00:04:36] feel differently, if they're in positions like mine, but I actually feel like just relating around stuff is so much better than when it starts to kind of slide into, you know, areas where it's like, [00:04:51] well, it's not as bad as your life, but you know, whatever. It's like, yeah, that doesn't feel so great. And now I feel like there's a sort of other element to it, that isn't, doesn't need to be there, you know? BARBARA: Like a competition [00:05:06] or something. ANDREW: Yeah, a competition, or a sense of apology, you know? I mean, I feel like if, if I know somebody well enough to talk about my life and their life, then we're on the same ground, right, you know? And everybody, I think [00:05:21] everybody understands that some things are more difficult than others, from a certain perspective, you know, but, but either way, I think it's . . . I think it's important to sort of just keep that relationship open, you know, and not, [00:05:37] I don't know, create that distance that sometimes comes with that for me. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting point. Like, how did we, as a people start doing that, because it really is a habit and I feel like it's a little bit like social [00:05:52] behavior niceties, because when I'm not talking publicly, like on a podcast, I would talk about what I went through in terms of now that I'm through it and I can see the other [00:06:07] side when I look back on it, it was so hard I don't even know how I got up every day. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, so to say to you, "Oh, it wasn't so bad." When, if I talk to you privately, I would be like, "Oh my God, I don't know how I did that," you know . . . so, you were right. We [00:06:22] are on equal terms here. It's been hard. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, and life is difficult, right? You know, I mean not all the time. Luckily there's great things, you know? I mean, one of the things that was interesting was being at the tail end of the summer, [00:06:37] and I was checking in with the kids, just before they went back to school this year, and I'm like, “How was your summer?” Right? And they were, they both gave it like rave reviews. And they were like, “Well, how was your summer, Dad?" And I was like, I'm like, you know, [00:06:52] “I don't give it an 8 a 10, and like those two missing points are cause like, relaunching the store during the summer was a ton of work and very stressful, you know? And like, just dealing with all the stuff that came with that was very stressful.” [00:07:07] And I was like, “Man, I'm doing pretty good at having a good time despite all this, you know, horrible stuff that's gone on and all the stress that comes with it,” right? You know?  But that also doesn't mean that there weren't days where I was like, “Oh my God, I have no idea, is that just [00:07:22] it, is this, you know, am I done having a store, is this over? Is that over?” You know, it's . . . Yeah, it's complicated when we lose that direction, right? I think it's . . . I think it's been challenging. And I think it's been a long time that you've been [00:07:38] sort of wrestling with this sense of direction, you know. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I'm thinking about . . . We talked somewhere in one of the past episodes about, probably before you moved out there, right? When I did that impossible reading for you, and you were like, “Oh, yeah, I'm [00:07:53] going to do all these things now,” you know? It's been, it's been a quite a while in some ways, I think, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I have, especially in terms of my tarot . . . well, in a lot of areas in my life, but in terms of my tarot career, [00:08:08] I have felt really lost. So, so lost and I . . . and there are a lot of elements to that. One, I should have wrote notes. [00:08:23] One thing that changed is I wasn't working with tarot for myself. Well, I wasn't reading for other people either. I quit doing that a while ago for, mostly because I didn't feel like I had enough [00:08:38] to bring, to give, I wasn't, my cup wasn't full. I couldn't fill anyone else's cup and I wasn't working with the cards for myself. So, starting in January, I started pulling a card a day, because that's like, what you tell beginners [00:08:53] to start and I would do it and I'd mark it in my daily journal and, but, and never did anything with them and so finally, but it was enough. I mean, I had, all I had energy to do was that. [00:09:08] And that was a start. I was touching my cards again and that mattered. Then when things started, mmm, taking an upturn, I added something like, "Okay, I want this daily draw to do [00:09:23] something more than just get marked down in my book and mean nothing, but use ink," and so I decided to start pulling two cards a day. And making them mean something. So the first card was [00:09:38] some energy that I was going to find myself into that day, you know, whether it was something that happened or my added something, just, just the energy of the day, something, and then with an eye to improving myself, [00:09:53] or becoming the person I want to be, more than I am. I pulled another card: "How can I interact with this energy?" To do that. And that has been super helpful. [00:10:08] That's made a big difference and made things more active for me in terms of like, doing something with the cards. So, you know, that's just a little thing but it's made a big, big difference. [ping from phone] I am so sorry about [00:10:24] . . . ANDREW: Well, that's okay. BARBARA: And I also had been thinking a lot about, like, I had been questioning the whole doing readings thing. Right? What do we do readings [00:10:39] for? What's the purpose? Oh, these mundane readings about our everyday problems. How boring is that? Or is that even the right thing to do? I mean, just very angsty, kind of pointless, spinning my wheels questioning, [00:10:54] and then, you know, when I was thinking about, we were going to talk, and I'd thought I'd like to talk about that, and I had a kind of a revelation. I'm not sure if it's going to stick, but it's a thought, that because I [00:11:09] want to do readings about different things, or in different ways, or with a different focus. I had to denigrate those readings, for some reason, you know, I think maybe it's human nature sometimes to make ourself feel better and more confident, we have to put [00:11:24] down something else for whatever reason. And so, even just that thought made me feel a lot better about things like, "Oh, well, just because I don't want to do that and just because I want to do this, [00:11:40] that doesn't mean the other is bad. I don't have . . ." You know? I mean, does that make any sense? ANDREW: I do. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, maybe a year, two years ago, [00:11:55] I was sitting during my, you know, not daily draw, but regular draws, and I was like, writing in my journal, and I found myself writing something like, "Well, when I'm free, blah blah blah [00:12:10] blah blah," right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And, and I, for whatever reason, on that day, as opposed to the various other days when I'd written something similar, I stopped and I looked at it. And I was like, [00:12:25] “Well, when is that going to be? And what does that look like?” Right? And I'm like, you know, at the time I was in an open relationship without a huge amount of limits on it. I mean some, but not, you know, I'm like, it's pretty darn free, I'm like, [00:12:40] you own your own store and you work for yourself. Like, what, what is it that other people are defining for you or that are limiting for you, right? You know? And the answer became pretty clear that it was very [00:12:55] little, right? Not nothing. But very little, right? I still have to pay taxes, I still have to, you know, whatever, there are certain things, but . . . And, I spent a lot of time sort of chewing on that for a while and realizing how [00:13:10] how often, movement, change, you know, these ideas were sort of created on continuing to define myself in relationship to other things [00:13:25] that actually had no sway or real say over my life, right? You know, I mean if I, if I decided, you know, I mean, I'm a, I'm a very fortune-teller-oriented card reader, but if I decided that I had enough of [00:13:40] that, and all I wanted to do was psychological readings, I could just change my website and filter people based on that and inform them, when they tried to book that, you know, this was the process going forward and that would be it. Like there's, there wasn't a lot of [00:13:55] things that prevented me from the various things that I was sort of waiting to become free enough to do. And so, since then I've spent a lot of time keeping my, keeping my definition and directions [00:14:10] in check, right? Like really looking at them, and saying, “Okay, am I, am I defining this relationally? Am I in relationship with some idea that I'm not actually interested in or don't want to live by," and so on, you know, and it's, [00:14:25] it's not always easy, but I think it's really helpful. Right? So look at those pieces and say, you know, your practice has no bearing on day-to-day type questions, right? Your practice doesn't need to have any relationship to the way I read or other people read [00:14:40] or the, you know, the whims of the tarot community and, you know, this year, next year, or 10 years from now, you know. BARBARA: Yep. Yeah, knowing [00:14:55] what you want, cleanly, and being realistic about it, and not just finding excuses, that takes a lot of self-reflection and honesty, [00:15:10] but will really make a big difference.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: In how you feel about your life in this moment. ANDREW: So, how do you, how do you generate that self-reflection? [00:15:25] You're talking about tarot, as one part, your tarot practice this year. How else do you talk--how else do you figure out? Because andone of the things that I think is--yeah, it's a bit of a theme, I think, with some episodes, it comes [00:15:40] up in various places, but this idea of like, how do you know when you're done? Right? How do you know when enough's enough? How do you notice that change, mark that change? You know? And so on, right? BARBARA: Yeah. [00:15:55] And, hmmm . . . Like, if we could come up with a format, a step-by-step format, on how to get yourself to that spot, we could probably be millionaires. Because everyone wants to know that, I [00:16:10] think. Because, at least for me, I have not come up with a method that, like, walks me to the spot where I can step over the line out of, you know, the mists of confusion into clarity. [00:16:26] I don't have that. For me, it has been, it has felt like waking up. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: Like, like I've been either asleep or underwater [00:16:41] or walking through Jello or something. And I don't realize it at the time for that. I mean, I know I don't feel right, I know I feel confused and unhappy, no energy, but [00:16:56] I don't really fully understand that state of being asleep or underwater until I start coming out of it. And then I see it. And then I start thinking, [00:17:12] I don't have to be that way anymore.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And so, when I can, it's like this pivotal point, this space where, like, a liminal space between what has been going on and what could be and [00:17:27] I have this opportunity to keep behaving the way I had been or changing the behavior. But before that, I don't know that I could have changed the behavior. I don't know that I was in a place where I could have [00:17:42] done that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, for me, it's this point where . . . Or at least how it feels for me right now, is, I can't wait to get started on the next phase and [00:17:57] I haven't had that excitement, energy, or enthusiasm in two years. So how . . . But how do I know? It's, it's, it's vague. I don't have . . . well, maybe as we keep talking, I'll think of more concrete things. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: But, to start the conversation, [00:18:13] it, that's what it feels like for me. What's that feel like for you? ANDREW: I mean, lately, so like in the last year, I've been noticing [00:18:29] where I'm not putting energy, that I officially think that I'm putting energy right? Where do I feel a difference between, you [00:18:44] know, something that I'm excited about, you know? It doesn't, it doesn't make it difficult for me. It's not difficult for me to show up and make art in my studio. You know, making art is great. I mean, [00:18:59] it requires, it requires having some time, you know, and it requires, you know, ideally not having sick kids at home or whatever, like certain things, but it's pretty easy to make that commitment. [00:19:15] You know, I've been sort of in and out of relationship in terms of polyamory this year a bit, and one of the things that I noticed around some of that was, where I was [00:19:30] willing to put in a certain kind of effort or show up in a certain way in one situation, but not in another. You know, and to me, that starts to be like, okay, so if I'm, if I'm willing to make the extra time or [00:19:46] hang out with them if they're sick or, you know, whatever, but with somebody else, I'm not feeling that as much, then those kinds of decisions start to be little flags for me. It's like, not necessarily that it's the end, but it's, something needs to change there, right? Or something has changed [00:20:01] there, and I need to sort of look at that. Right? And I think that, I don't know that we ever notice the moment, right? Like I don't know if there's a, you know, barring like, really, you know: And I said something and then they smack me in the face and I said [00:20:16] "We're done," like, you know, unless it's, like, ridiculous and dramatic, which is, you know, never really my life. I don't think that we ever notice explicitly those moments. I think that we notice, we can notice [00:20:31] when we're wobbling along that line, and then we can sort of reflect and see what's coming. Or what makes sense from that point, you know? BARBARA: Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes, you're right. It's, it is hard [00:20:46] in these things to pick a point, as you said, and for most of it's probably more like a process, you know, that it takes some time and, but, sometimes even within that process you can find like little mini points, you know, [00:21:01] like, I remember, I remember admitting to myself . . . Because we'd already started talking about how California wasn't right for us. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And, so, the next question was, where do we go next? ANDREW: [00:21:16] Mm-hmm. Is the answer Tijuana? BARBARA: The answer is not Tijuana. ANDREW: Okay. BARBARA: I found myself not being super excited about thinking about where to go next.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I knew I didn't want to be here. Didn't know where I want [00:21:31] to go So, I kind of made myself think about that, and in that moment, I had this realization that hit me very hard: I want to go home. [00:21:47] And that was hard to admit, and hard to feel, and hard to know, because I knew it wasn't going to fly for us, for us, my marriage, my, our family, our little, just the two of us were a family. [00:22:04] Because we didn't want the winters. We . . . The winters in Minnesota are just too, too, too much and we're not ready for that. But just knowing that, one of the things I learned during this adventure is my family [00:22:19] and my Minnesota friends are very important to me, like more important to me than I knew before I left. ANDREW: Hmm. BARBARA: And so that little, and that, so that was a mini, like, you know, moment. [00:22:35] And then, like, when I actually told Dylan that, that was another moment, because it was scary to say that, you know, for me, because it was like, I can't believe I'm gonna say this. Because one fear was, what if she says, “Okay, let's go [00:22:50] home,” and then I'm stuck in Minnesota winter again! But anyways, so, yeah, these little mini moments of, you know, revelation. Oh, and another thing that I have noticed. I don't know if you've had this too. But now that I feel like [00:23:05] I'm being more honest with myself, that we're on, we have some more clear direction on what the future is going to look like, synchronicities are happening.  Like, I can barely like, take a breath without something, like [00:23:20] helping me feel like I'm on the right path. You know, and I've heard people talk about that, like well, if you're looking for it, of course, you're going to find it. You know, like cynics might say that. And other people might say, [00:23:35] “Well, yeah, that's a sign that you're on the right path.” I don't know if I'd quite go that far, because I'm not sure what I believe about the right path thing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Fate and destiny, that's going to be a focus of study this coming year. I'm very excited about it. ANDREW: [00:23:50] Well, you know, it's funny. I have those as listed, at the top of my list of things I want to follow up on in this conversation: agency, force, death, destiny, and free will. So we can, [00:24:05] we can set some explorations on it in this conversation and then, you know, a year from now we can report back as to where it's gotten. So yeah. BARBARA: Absolutely. Totally. Yes, right. So synchronicities, you know, [00:24:20] they always, I find them comforting, and encouraging, so whether they're actually real or not, it doesn't matter to me right now. I'm taking my comfort where I can get it. It's helping. ANDREW: So, and I think that, [00:24:35] first of all, I think, you know, as the song says, you know, whatever gets you through the night. Like, I think that finding comfort where we can is always, you know, as long as it's not too self-destructive. [00:24:51] I think it's always a great move, right? I think that, you know, this year of sort of moving through the fire and doing that has definitely been a year of more indulging- and comfort-orientated behavior [00:25:07] than is usual for me. And I'm just like, you know what? Life is fricking hard right now, so I'm not going to worry about that too much. And I'm just going to, you know, lean into that wherever and whenever I need to, you know, so there's been [00:25:22] more naps, more ice cream, and more TV this year than would normally be a thing for me, because sometimes that, you know, for me anyway, that's part of getting through these times, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I think that, you know, [00:25:38] so, synchronicities are a thing that I am very interested in, especially because it's often touted as the explanation of how tarot works, also, right. You shuffle the cards and the universe [00:25:54] through synchronicity arranges them in a way that is meaningful. And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of fine and fun as an answer unless you try and like [00:26:09] say, “What does synchronicity mean? How exactly does that function? And you know, is there anything behind that?” And then all of a sudden you just like slide into utter chaos of inexplicable mystery, right? And I think that that's fine. I have, for me, I'm [00:26:24] like, you know, mystery is the answer, right? I'm like, tarot runs on mystery. That's all we need to know about it. BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Exactly, exactly, right? But, so, I think [00:26:39] that synchronicity is, you know, lots of people are really into numerology, and, you know, they're like . . . I've, you know, people come for readings, like, "I've been seeing lots of triple eight lately, or triple this, or triple . . ." [00:26:54] And I'm always like, "Well, that's cool. What does it mean?" And you know, it . . . And then they'll often say a thing followed by the question, which is usually, “So when is that going to manifest?” Right? [00:27:09] And so, you know, and I don't mean this to make fun of people, like I'm not at all, right? Like absolutely, there are those moments where like, “Oh, there's a sign. Okay, where's the, where's the product?” Right? “Where's, where's the actual outcome of that?” So, [00:27:24] sort of more and more over time, I've been, I've been looking at what it is that I believe, how I approach things, and thinking about . . . [00:27:39] You know, people always ask me, like, well, so “What's the, what's the astrology in the Orisha tradition?” Right? “What's the astrology in your Orisha practice?” And I'm like, there is none, it doesn't exist. Right? It's not a part of it at all. There's no, no consideration [00:27:54] given to it in any real sense. There, there is, notions around times of day, a bit, depending on what we're talking about, and if you practice in a syncretized kind [00:28:09] of way with the saints, then maybe certain Orishas have their day, right? You know,  where many people celebrate them extra, but there is no astrology. And, and I've been noticing the sort [00:28:24] of growing tension for me between, like, astrology, which I stopped reading this year, and stepped away from and decided that I was going to actively not engage any more, and [00:28:39] the way in which I was feeling stressed and tense around that stuff some, and the fact that it's not actually a part of my religious practice at all. Right? And I'm kind of the same with, like, some of the [00:28:54] synchronicity stuff, you know? There have been times in my life where I was very intense on that kind of stuff and, you know, thought about it and wrote about it, had a bunch of experiences with it. And now there's [00:29:09] basically only one symbol from the universe that I'm interested in. Well, there's a couple. One, but the synchronous thing, or the thing that I think fits this way, is if I find a playing card on the street, [00:29:24] then for me, that's a message, and I will interpret the card based on my knowledge of reading them and we'll go from there. Right? The other thing that is synchronous, you know, from a certain perspective, but I see it as more directly as a message [00:29:39] from spirit, which kind of has a different definition in my mind. So, like, three months ago, maybe a little less, I broke up [00:29:54] with someone that I'd been with for a long time. We decided to change the nature of our relationship. And it was very kind and very honest. And you know, and the relationship has changed into [00:30:10] a really good friendship, which is lovely. But about two days after I . . .  that happened, I found a robin's nest on the ground with three dead eggs in it like broken eggs, right? And I was [00:30:25] like, everyone's like, “Oh, that's just so . . .” I'm like “No, this is just sad and unpleasant,” right? You know? And I was just like, yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely acknowledging like the depth of the disruption that's happened here. And, [00:30:40] and so, you know, I took that, I picked up the nest, and I saved it, and you know, it's around still. And, and then, maybe three weeks ago, two weeks ago, [00:30:55] I was walking through this laneway that I identify with the spirit that I work with a lot. And there was a pigeon on, like sort of flopping around a bit, with this, what looked like a branch [00:31:10] wrapped around its neck, and I'm like, "Oh, how am I going to free this poor bird? Is it going to let me get close enough to liberate it?" And as I got a little closer, the bird, I realized, was actually holding onto the branch. It was not stuck by it. [00:31:25] And it flew up and it flew directly up over my head, circled maybe like five feet above my head, three times, and literally dropped the branch into my hands. BARBARA: No way! ANDREW: And I was like, "Perfect, now [00:31:40] there's a new nest. Now I'm going to build something new. Now I've moved on, internally, I've moved on," right? BARBARA: Ohhhh . . . ANDREW: So to me, these are events that I take as as close to synchronous as people usually mean by that, right? [00:31:55] You know, direct message from somewhere else, right? And to me, they are clear, and concrete, and so on, in a way that, you know, not to diminish anybody else's experience, but [00:32:10] that those other kinds of symbols, I'm not sure what they mean, right? At least in my life, you know? And so, yeah, but also, you know there have been plenty of times in my life, where I'm like, [00:32:25] "Oh, yeah, I saw that, I saw that number again. I'm on the right path. I'm on the right path," you know? And I think that that's fair too, I think I just have a different relationship to it now, and I have a different set of expectations maybe. So. BARBARA: [00:32:40] Yeah. Okay, great. It all makes sense. And I love the story about the pigeon. Oh my God, I'm still stuck on that. Anyways, yeah. So, synchronicity, like levels of synchronicity, or is it [00:32:55] synchronicity, or is it a message from the divine, are they two different things? Those are really great questions. I think I agree with you. I think there is a difference between them. And, like synchronicity, I mean, I think the actual definition of it is like two [00:33:11] disconnected things that seem to have a connection. And I think that we humans are the ones who give that connection or give that meaning, so, so maybe what, why it's comforting to me is because if I [00:33:26] see something that brings to mind something else that's connected with what I'm doing at the time, or going through or thinking about, it just helps remind me that that's where my attention is.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, you know, maybe it's just this, a [00:33:41] way of like stoking the fire, like, yes, this is what my intention is. This is what I want to think about. You know, but on a kind of more subtle level or something. And then, you know, messages from the divine, then, I think, are kind of different. [00:33:57] You mentioned finding the cards, playing cards, specifically playing cards on the street is pretty funny. It reminds me of . . . Dylan has something that she has always called parking lot divination, and she started it when she was [00:34:12] a book cover designer at Llewellyn. Now, as you could imagine, the trash cans, the big garbage bins outside of Llewellyn, sometimes would have cards in them, for, you know, if a package had been damaged or whatever. [00:34:27] And so, sometimes, I guess, they would blow around and she would always walk around the building, you know, for exercise every day. And so sometimes she would come across these random cards on the, you know, and she would always pick them up and they would mean, she would read them as [00:34:42] a divination, and she still does that to this day, and she finds a surprising number of playing cards just out and about in the streets. It's very strange. So, so yeah.  ANDREW: They're definitely around. BARBARA: Yeah.  ANDREW: The other thing [00:34:57] that's funny is I almost never find a whole deck. A couple times I have. Yeah, and often I'll find them clustered for periods of time, you know, like I will find [00:35:12] different, different cards in different places for a couple months, and then I'll find nothing for six months. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And then I'll start finding them again, which is also, to me, interesting. Yeah. BARBARA: Huh. I have another kind of [00:35:27] a symbol story, and you know, does it mean something? Or does it mean nothing? Or did I give it meaning or whatever? That . . . it's a story that I wanted to tell you, you know, any, at some point today, anyways . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Cause it's very, it was very significant [00:35:42] to me. So, So, okay. How to tell the story? Okay. So, Dylan is not going to be here at Christmas. She's actually flying back to Minnesota for Christmas. I'm going to be [00:35:57] here alone, which is great because I have a whole, you know, personal retreat planned and ritual, and all kinds of crazy great stuff, but because of that, we did our little personal celebration on Sunday. And, [00:36:12] but we had agreed on no presents because of reasons. And, but she said, "But, I do have one present that I actually started the process for it a few months ago. So, there'll be [00:36:27] the one present." I'm like, “Okay, I can, I can let you give me a present, no problem.” ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And so, well, so the back story that you need to know to understand the present [00:36:42] is: When we got married, she gave me a necklace, and it suited me perfectly, it was meaningful and beautiful and we both loved it. And it was just, it was [00:36:57] like a symbol, one of the many symbols of us.  ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And in May, we were, we were out at the coast. I was taking a watercolor class, and we'd gone together, and I brought the necklace but I didn't, [00:37:12] I don't sleep in it. So I, you know, just take it off, and I, you know, put it somewhere, then . . . Long story short, it got left in the hotel, and when we called the hotel, they're like, “No, it's not in the room.” You know? So, [00:37:27] I mourned that necklace. I cried, it felt, it felt symbolic. It felt like “Oh my God, our marriage is,” you know? It's, it just made me so sad because [00:37:42] things had been hard, we're working through some things, and I just took it as this horrible, horrible omen, and it just broke my heart. And the company, [00:37:57] we couldn't find, it looks like the company didn't make the necklace anymore, so I couldn't even get a replacement, and it was just horrible, horrible. Well, so Christmas comes, present time. She gives me a . . . Okay. So she brings me a card and a little, little present and I opened the card and I start [00:38:12] reading it and I start bawling because she's written some stuff that is breaking my heart in a good way. And she's like, “Well, since you're crying, hold on, we'll just keep going.” And she goes in the other room and brings out a different package [00:38:27] and I start opening it. And it's wrapped in this kind of a gift baggy thing that we've had for years and we only use it for a very special gift. And . . .  ANDREW: That's really sweet. BARBARA: It [00:38:42] is, it is, we haven't used it in a number of years because you know, it hasn't been like that. And so, she, I start opening it. And then inside it is a bag from Arthur's Jewelers, Arthur's Jewelers [00:38:57] is the Jewelers in St. Paul where we got like our wedding rings from, and if we ever get like actual real jewelry, which we don't have a lot of, but we get it from them, and as I saw the bag and I'm like, she got me jewelry, what? And, and, then all of a sudden [00:39:12] I knew what was in that bag and I have never ripped the package open so fast in my life, and it was the necklace. And I saw it, and I have, I cried like my [00:39:27] soul was, I don't know what was going on. But I've only cried like that like maybe three times in my life, and it felt like a symbol, you know, like a sign like, okay, like, you lost [00:39:42] it. You guys were in the like, the three days of death or the three days after death, like, you know, in the bowels of hell fighting the demon, and now you're done, and now you, you know, you have the same, it's a new necklace, but it's the same necklace. It, [00:39:57] so, it's kind of like our marriage. It's the same marriage, but it's a new marriage and it was hard won. And until I lost it, I didn't realize how much it meant to me, and, you know, so, [00:40:12] I felt like the necklace, was always symbolic, the loss of it was symbolic, the reacquiring of it was symbolic. So that's another thing entirely, you know, was that divine? Was that something we, [00:40:27] that . . . I don't know. How did that happen? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that the answer is probably always really complex, right? You know, I mean, people, [00:40:43] you know, people talk about like, the fire, right? Me having the fire. They're like, “Well, you know, maybe it happened for a reason so you could whatever.” And I'm always like, "I don't, I don't buy that answer at all.” Right? I mean, you know, that [00:40:58] said, right? I think that, like many things, I hold sort of contradictory ideas about it, right? And in myself, they seem fine to be contradictory, right?  I know that, [00:41:13] you know, in some ways, that the fire must have been a part of my destiny, in some sense, because of the advice of the Orishas in the time around it, right? You know, we have this [00:41:29] kind of source of negativity, which is Otonowa, which means that which we brought with you from heaven, right? And sometimes it means, sometimes it means that literally. Maybe sometimes [00:41:44] it stands for things that just can't be changed and we have to work through in one way or another, but, you know, this was part of my advice from the Orishas around that time. So, I'm like, well, fair enough, something was going on there, in that regard. [00:41:59] But also like, the idea that, you know, I talked about this, I think in the last episode too with Chiron Armand, you know, the idea that we are always progressing towards other things, or better things, and [00:42:14] so on. I don't necessarily believe that, either, right? I think that, you know, we can look at people's lives and see that that doesn't happen, sometimes, right? Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. And the reasons for that are, [00:42:29] you know, complex and, you know, and always a bit obscure as well. Right? Why does, why does one experience sort of break a person in a way that they don't recover from? And why does it, you know, [00:42:44] you know, just deeply bruise or wound or maybe not even apparently sort of injure another person, right? You know, there's such a diversity amongst us all and why that is the case, right? But for me, I look at [00:42:59] these situations and I think that it becomes a question of what do we, what do, you know, there's, if we want to call it fate or whatever, those, those experiences that are beyond our apparent control, right? [00:43:14] Or that are the unexpected byproduct of decisions that we have made, maybe in the case of a relationship, that might sort of give the appearance of fate, and might coincide with synchronicities, right? That moment when you lost the necklace and it cued you to, [00:43:29] you know, all of the bigger changes that were going on, right? And then there's the question of what do we do with it? Right? You know? And I think that that is also, you know, such a big distinction, [00:43:44] right? You know? And like, me ending up in the situation that I'm in now, which is in many ways more ideal than the situation I was in with the store. You know? Or where the store was at, at the time of the fire. You know, on the one hand, [00:43:59] yeah, that's, it's great that it's, that it's sort of working out really well, but also there's a, there's a lot of it that's really, was already in my two year plan. You [00:44:14] know? Like I was already thinking about these ideas and working on them. And so, some of this transformation, you know, I'm just going to take credit for, by saying, you know, like look, I had these ideas that because of the [00:44:31] concreteness of having the store were going to take me a long time to make shift, that in some ways the fire basically just liquidated my assets into cash and allowed me to transform it, you know, [00:44:46] and applying it towards those plans. You know? There's that, that sort of balance of agency, free will, and the intersection of fate, right? Because I think that what we, what we do when things happen is, [00:45:02] you know, is important, and makes a big difference in that, you know? And I think that the more we cultivate a capacity to, you know, to make good decisions during those times, [00:45:17] you know, the better that can go and so on, right? So, anyway, I don't know, I don't know if that makes any sense at all. But . . . BARBARA: Oh, yeah. Well, as you say, these things get confusing to talk about, so, yeah, I think yeah, insofar [00:45:32] as it can make sense, it totally makes sense. And, kind of, almost kind of connected with that is, you know, this, the idea [00:45:47] of like judging something as good or bad. Okay. It's, and it's kind of connected with the idea, “Oh, it happened for a reason.” Well, I mean first of all, almost everything does happen for a reason because cause and effect exists. And you know, so there was a reason, [00:46:02] but I know people are talking about a grander reason then electrical faultiness or whatever. So, things happen for a reason, maybe, you know, they . . . Things happen, [00:46:17] is what what it is, and trying to judge whether they're good or bad. I mean, we want to do that because that's what we do because we're binary beings, I guess, you know like, “Oh, that's good. That's bad.” I mean, people always say [00:46:32] what they think, but you can't always tell if something's actually good or bad in the long run until time has passed, because there have been things that I went through that I wouldn't want to go through again, [00:46:47] but I'm glad they happened, because then XYZ happened, not saying it happened for a reason, you know, like because it didn't magically do anything. It also ties kind of into what you're saying, your own agency and own preparedness, [00:47:02] your own, you know, strength of will, whatever you want to say, you know, you can bring that to it and turn things around.  But it's also one of the things that bothered me, puzzled me about these, you know, more everyday readings, you know, like, people are like, “Well, [00:47:17] you know, I'm thinking of taking this job. Should I take this job?” And you know, I mean, I don't know about you, but like if I'm looking into the future, I'm not real comfortable looking more than six months out. I just don't. [00:47:32] And you know, so if I'm, you know, do a reading and it's like, well, yeah, the job says this, this, and this, and maybe some things they consider not good and then they don't take it. But if they took it, then it would [00:47:47] have led to XYZ. So, you know, just, we don't always know. We think we know what we want in the short term. We think we know what our goals are. Oh, I want to manifest this, I want to do this, if the cards say it's all going to be positive. [00:48:02] I think we lose something in that, because not everything we do has to be completely positive or successful to be worthwhile or to be part of a larger journey that might be more worthwhile. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: Does that make sense? ANDREW: It does. [00:48:17] I mean, I think that, I think that the question of like, you know, one of the questions that I've been thinking about for a while, specifically around, you know, my work life, is like, what's enough? Right? [00:48:32] At what point, at what point am I successful enough? I mean, to put it in really basic terms, at what point am I making enough money? And what, what is it that I would like from going beyond that point? Right? You know? And I think [00:48:47] that, you know, working for yourself is not like kind of getting into a job description position that you like and just sort of like, "perfect, if I just stay in this job till I retire, that's great," because working for yourself doesn't really work that way, and I'm not sure the economy works that way [00:49:02] that much anymore anyway. But you know, but I think that we have these sort of notions of progress, of enlightenment, of, you know, all those kinds of ideas that are, you know, cultural [00:49:17] to capitalism and you know, like cultural to North America and so on, maybe, that, that I think are questionable how helpful they are, right? You know, like, [00:49:32] I don't, I don't know that . . . Like mostly what I'm interested in is making art, making more art, making more art, and doing the things that supports [00:49:47] that, right? And you know, like, I love running the store. I love doing readings for people. But I think that like, the idea of it sort of going anywhere. I'm like, well, I [00:50:02] don't know where, I don't know where it goes, and what the definition of where it goes, and what the grand plan is. I just want to, you know, do my practice, which is, you know, making art and reading cards for people, and just continue to do that. And I think that, you know, [00:50:17] that you're right, that it's hard to say, on a big arc of time, what might be good or what might be difficult. You know, like if we get, if we take a job, maybe it's crummy for six months and then it's great [00:50:32] after that, and so on. But I also feel like the idea of persevering through stuff towards an outcome. I'm really [00:50:47] less and less interested in that these days, you know? If something, if something, if the exchange isn't good in the short term, then I don't, you know, I don't, I'm not really that interested in sort of engaging in that [00:51:02] to get to a theoretically better long-term, you know? And, and I think that, I think a lot of people, especially around relationships, right, sort of work through, try to work through stuff, [00:51:17] you know, to get to . . . Especially newer relationships, right? Like maybe if you've been with somebody for a while as you have been, that, you know, there's a, there's a different math around, like, well, I was involved for this long. [00:51:32] And so now I'm willing to commit a longer stretch of time to working on things.  BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: But, but, I think that for me, I'm like, I'm not that interested in working on very much these days in those kinds of ways, you know, and if something isn't [00:51:47] flowing, I don't have the, I haven't seen the value of spending the resilience and capacity on working hard at stuff that is difficult [00:52:03] towards accomplishing longer term goals without making a change, right? You know, I think about it like Crowley talks about the Strength card or the Lust card in his tarot deck, right? And, and I think [00:52:18] that he draws a distinction in his writing on it, where he says that, you know, lust is not the absence of effort, right? It's not the absence of exertion. It is the absence of noticing the exertion, right? [00:52:33] Or something along those lines, right? And that idea that, you know, if we don't mind the work that we're not going to notice it, right?  BARBARA: Right.  ANDREW: And if we do mind the work, well, then, maybe we need to, maybe that's one of those cues to make a change, right? [00:52:49]  BARBARA: Yeah, that's gorgeous. And if you follow it, like if that's kind of a guideline that you're following for your life right now, as you were saying, then you probably [00:53:04] wouldn't be doing readings on things so much, because if you're like, I'm, I'm going with how things feel now, you are attune enough to yourself to know what you're . . . You know, [00:53:19] so you probably would need less readings because you're paying attention to your energy and how you're feeling and what you're doing and the effort and the payoff. Is that true or not true? ANDREW: That's true. [00:53:35] Trueish. I mean, I think that there are always practical considerations that are difficult, right? You know? [00:53:50] Dealing, dealing with insurance companies after having had a fire. It's like, man, nobody wants to insure you, right? It's like, it's difficult. And so, there are . . . For me, there are always practical questions, [00:54:05] and, you know, questions along the lines of, is there anything that I can do to make this better, to make it happen, especially because I have a very strong practical magical practice, right? You know, so there are those kinds of questions. [00:54:20] But really the question that I ask more often than not, these days, is either something along the lines of like well, should I run my Tarot de Marseilles class in January, or should I run my other course, [00:54:35] right? Like very sort of strategic business kind of things? Or a question, the question I go back to most of the time, is how do I show up fully today? How do [00:54:50] I show up fully in this situation? Right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And you know, and for me, that's a question that I've kind of come to answer by a sort of multi-step open-ended [00:55:07] kind of practice. Right? Like I don't, I no longer just kind of, if I'm going to read cards for myself in that way, I don't like just draw a card or two cards for the answer. I'll usually draw start with drawing a playing card, [00:55:22] checking in with my guides and ancestors, drawing three trumps from the, from a Marseilles deck, reading those in light of what's already been set in motion in the early part of the reading, and then [00:55:38] drawing a card from my Land of the Sacred Self Oracle that I self-published. And doing some writing on that, and then usually photographing that, and then drawing, doing, drawing back into it [00:55:53] and embellishing it further, and then at some point, that feels finished. So, like that's the, the process that I do when I do that stuff. And you know, it's all, if you, if people were to look at it, which I'm not [00:56:08] going to share it anywhere. But anyway, if people were to look at it, you'd be like, wow. I don't know what sense this makes a lot of time because a lot of it is very nonlinear and very, you know, like a lot of channeled reading, writing, you know, like, [00:56:23] and so on. But at the end of the process, I'm like, “Oh, now, now I'm aligned for the day, and now I know how I stay aligned for the day. You know for this project or whatever.” Right? So . . . yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, well and yeah, [00:56:38] that sounds like a good process, and I think like, some, I've heard people, you know, say, “Oh, I can't read for myself.” And I think sometimes part of that is they don't read for themselves the way they read [00:56:53] for somebody else. Like they give themself short shrift. You know, they won't go through the whole process, just throw the cards, look at them, go, and then pick them up and put them away. You know, it's different. I think if you treat [00:57:08] yourself as if you were, how you would treat a client . . . ANDREW: For sure and I think if you're going to read for yourself around practical considerations, you just need to have a lot of discipline, right? You know? For me when I read for myself [00:57:23] around practical considerations, it's actually usually really short because I'm like, like, you know, it's whatever. The Tower card says, this is a horrible idea. Don't go down this road. It's like, it's like, it's the end of the conversation. Just stop [00:57:38] there, you know, because the more I talk about it, the more I might try and talk myself into it or think that I have agency where, where the Tower says it doesn't, you know? And so on and so on, right? So but for me, yeah, it's like, you know, there's a short list of [00:57:53] sort of core meaning that I would attribute to every card that if I want to read for myself, I'm going to hold hard to that no matter whether I like it or not, whether it even makes sense or not to me, and be like, “All right, the card says that [00:58:08] someone's going to really betray you here, 10 of Swords. It's like, well, all right, let's not go there then.” Well, so I'm going to go instead, “What else can I do?” You know? Yeah. BARBARA: I think that's important too when you especially, well, like your first practice was more of [00:58:23] an internal deeper kind of a reading. And now we're talking about practical readings, and I think one of the reasons we want to do a practical reading is because we want to bypass our head, because we keep thinking [00:58:38] about it, and we keep justifying, and we know we're justifying, or making excuses and we know we're making excuses. So, you do this reading and keep it short and hold yourself to it. It helps bypass all of that, but you're right, if you start thinking about it, like, well, the Tower [00:58:53] can be, you know, how we can sometimes spin things. ANDREW: Carl Jung thinks of buildings as being a symbol of our ego and our persona in the world, maybe I just need to change the way I approach this, so that I can have a different experience of this and then I can learn [00:59:08] and grow and blah blah blah. It's like, no. Still gonna get hit by the lightning. Definitely don't like that. Thank you, but I'll pass. Right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: For sure.  BARBARA: Or someone wants to know, "Oh, I started dating someone, how is it going to go?" Five of Wands. "Oh, it's going to be so exciting [00:59:23] and fun!" And you know, it's like, one of the exercises I would give beginner students is, for reading for themselves, is okay, before you do a reading, the question, you know your question, and you know what answer [00:59:38] you want.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Go through the deck and just like, if you don't already have the meanings, like you have, for reading for yourself. This is new people, go through the deck and you know pull out the cards that you think would make that answer.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And then [00:59:53] shuffle your cards--and make note of them--shuffle your cards again, and then do your reading, and then if, you know, the Two of Cups, Ten of Cups, whatever doesn't come up. It can be like, "Well, okay. This isn't one of the answer cards. [01:00:08] This is a different answer." And it's a way to kind of discipline, discipline yourself, which is what you said when we started. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. No, exactly. Well. It's like, you know, I think that that approach is, you know, really [01:00:23] helpful for a lot of things, right? And especially for, you know, I mean not everybody reads for, for everything, you know, but I do. Right? Like I don't really have limits around what I'll read for, you know, for [01:00:38] the most part. So, like, if someone's like, well, am I going to get pregnant, right? Am I going to conceive? Well, I have a short, short list of cards that answer yes to that, right? There's only like three or four of them, [01:00:53] depending on the deck I'm working with, and if those cards don't show up, then I'm going to say, "The cards don't give you a solid yes." Right? And you know, the same with the question people are like, “Am I cursed?” I'm like, “It happens, magic is real. I believe [01:01:08] it,” you know. But there's, there's only a couple of cards in the deck that are going to answer affirmatively to, to me around that, and my expectation is that the mystery will surface those cards, so that the answer feels unequivocal, [01:01:24] you know. And I think that that's also a practice that is a bit hair-raising when people are starting, but I think that, you know, as we talk about it, I realize how many different kinds of questions I have a very short list of [01:01:39] cards that I would take as a solid answer to, you know, and I think that that's a really helpful way maybe to, to avoid feeling ambiguous about the readings that you're giving, right? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: So, yeah. [01:01:56] All right. Well, maybe, is there something else you want to add? I see you looking like you're gonna . . . BARBARA: Yes, I, there's one, like, I kind of said that I was going to be studying fate and destiny in the coming year. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: The other thing I'm [01:02:11] looking forward to is, over this past year, I've heard a couple of people refer to mythic living, like I should know what that means, and I don't, and I've asked a couple of people, you know, "Well, what do you mean by [01:02:26] that?" And I haven't gotten, I was, kept getting this idea that it was like, where you just live really big and loud and you know, mythically legendary, you know? And, but . . . I read something a couple weeks ago that made me think okay, you got that wrong, obviously, [01:02:42] and what this blog said was, it's when you understand the mythic rhythms of life, things that happen, the mythic, well, [01:02:57] anyways, you know what I mean. And when you understand them and when you can learn where you are in your life in terms of a mythic story, or cycle, then you can learn how to live within that. [01:03:12] Have you ever heard anything like that? What do you think of that?  ANDREW: I mean, isn't that how people feel about the hero's journey? BARBARA: It's the whole, yes, exactly. Okay. So similar thing. ANDREW: I think, right. I mean, I've my [01:03:27] own ideas about mythic stuff, but we'll save that for later, for another time, maybe. But I think that, I think that [01:03:42] the idea of sort of myths as true guides to our, to our lives, or as, you know, true models of experience, in the same way that I think of this sort of way in [01:03:57] which people sometimes default to astrology, and sometimes default to other ways of creating definition. I think they're, I think that there is value in them, and there are [01:04:12] values in those stories, you know?  And as a person who practices a religion that is based on, we could say, has a huge swath of it that's based on stories, right? You know, nobody, nobody [01:04:27] in my tradition would tell you . . . Well, no, nobody with a solid grounding in reality would tell you that, you know, as a child of Shango, I'm gonna live the life, live the myths of Shango, [01:04:42] right? You know? And you know, and I think that this idea that, that sort of these myths define the arc of human experience, right? I think [01:04:57] it's pretty questionable. I think that there is truth in it, right? You know, like the, the myth of Percival, which is so popular amongst, you know, Western initiatory stuff, [01:05:12] right? It's like, there are pieces of that that are true, and valuable, and you see most people encounter in some way, right? Like, you know, once the, once the hero decides to go on their journey, something arises to distract them, right? You know, [01:05:27] Kundria arrives to distract Percival from pursuing whatever, right? But the idea that every myth ends with, you know, “Oh, you are the person you were searching for all along and you had it with you the whole time.” [01:05:42] I don't think that's true at all. Right? I see lots of people whose lives are, are not that way, right? And, you know, and yet, the, the, questions that arise from looking at that myth a bit, like what would, what would distract you from your deeper commitment? [01:05:57] Right? In what ways are you not already acknowledging your gifts, you know? And so on, right?  Like those, those are powerful questions, but as sort of models for, for sort of promoting everybody's [01:06:12] experience, you know, it's like the hero's journey. I'm just kind of like, I'm like, "Yeah, maybe, for some people, some of the time," but then we're back to this question of like, agency and free will and how much does our expectation that is the course that we're going to [01:06:27] continue on then shape the course that we live afterwards, right? And I think that, yeah, so. But yeah, so I think that that's a really mixed bag [01:06:42] of things, you know, for me, you know? And probably because I did not come out of tarot from that sort of Angeles Aryan, sort of archetypes of people, you know, archetypes are what's behind [01:06:57] tarot piece, but came from a sort of practical magical and sort of ceremonial background into this stuff and then into a non-Western tradition religiously. I always look at those pieces, and I'm kind of like, eh? [01:07:12] I get it. I see it. Like I can see how you see it. And I can see how it's there, but it's like, what it's defined as, seems overstated or, or incomplete in some way to me, [01:07:27] in a way that I've never been able to reconcile it, or kind of close the loop on it. So yeah. BARBARA: I guess that's why there's a lot of different approaches because . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Some work for some people and some work for others [01:07:42]. ANDREW: Exactly, right, you know, and it's, of course, it's not to say that, you know, if people find value in that, fantastic, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, please, please don't write me, I don't need to have this conversation again. I've had it so many times, you know? But no, not [01:07:57] that, not talking, talking about you, but like, but yeah, it's like I've had many people, very smart people try to convince me. Or want to have conversations around convincing me about it. Like it's not my jam. I just, I just don't, I just don't jive with it, so we could just go [01:08:12] talk about other things instead, right? BARBARA: Right, or yeah, because that's not a really interesting conversation, because trying to convince someone who has, especially someone who has a perfectly workable system, you know, and they're not like [01:08:27] asking for advice or looking for a new way to live or think. It's just evangelizing, and why do you, why . . . Just because you believe something is true, the, the other person doesn't have to think it's true. [01:08:42] That doesn't diminish its worth for you. You know, you don't, everyone doesn't have to believe the same thing. ANDREW: Exactly.  BARBARA: You know, what might be more interesting would be to say, "Well, let's talk about what I think and what you think and see if there are any parallels and maybe talk about where they [01:08:57] differ. And isn't that interesting? And why is that?" You know. ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah. I'm curious to hear what your explorations of mythicness deliver to you, bring to you, over time, though, for sure. BARBARA: I [01:09:12] know. I have a feeling that next year, next fall, our conversation is going to be super interesting. I mean not that these haven't been, but these have been personal, and hard, and important, and [01:09:28] valuable, but I think for next fall, we might, our listeners might get a treat of something different. ANDREW: Or maybe they'll just get a lovely, what are we at now, fourth helping, fifth helping of, you know, [01:09:43] whatever this is. But yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll, time will tell. BARBARA: That's right. ANDREW: Well, thanks for making time again, Barbara. I appreciate it as always. BARBARA: I do too. I love these conversations. ANDREW: Me too!  

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Now, Barbara, it's really good to see you. I heard that you were in the hospital.Barbara: Yes, I was. I got sick in August last year and luckily I was with my students and the lady was a nurse. She and her husband drove me to the hospital. I was doubled over. I was clutching my stomach. I had so much pain, a burning sensation in my chest. I didn't know what was happening. They took me to the hospital and they did some tests and they said, “ Well, you have gallstones.”Todd: Gallstones. What exactly are gallstones?Barbara: Well, next to your stomach, there is an organ called the gall bladder and the job of this organ is to hold some liquid which comes out of your liver and this liquid stays in your gallbladder and is saved for when it' needed, and when you eat something that contains fat or oil, the bile from the gallbladder is squirted out and goes into, perhaps your stomach or your intestine. I'm not sure which, and there it does something to help you to cope with the oil. Perhaps it binds with the oil or makes it easier for your body to get rid of it – to eliminate it.Todd: OK, so when you have these gallstones, do they give you medicine? Do they remove them through surgery?Barbara: There are a couple of different things to do. My gallbladder was working too hard because I was eating an unhealthy diet and not exercising enough, so inside my gallbladder, there were too big hard stones. Some people can have surgery to remove them. Some people have laser surgery, where the doctors aim a laser at the stones and shatter them, but the small pieces are still there and they have to be passed out of the body naturally and that is still a problem. With me, my gallbladder was inflamed and they looked at it and said, “No, it has to come out” so they took out the whole thing: the gallbladder and the two stones inside it. So now I have no gallbladder, so if I eat oily food… well, I have no gallbladder to contain the bile from my liver which I need to process the oil.Todd: Right, right.Barbara: So, if I eat anything with oil I feel sick, and I usually… yeah, it's not good. So, I avoid oil, which is healthier anyway.Todd: Well, I'm just glad that you're OK. That sound pretty awful.Barbara: Oh, well, I'm fit now. Yeah, everything's OK.Todd: Oh, good to hear.

Barbara and Andrew catch up on their 4th annual check in to discuss the state of the world. They talk about the way death has been a force in Barbara's life. How maybe being real is more important that being upbeat. The role of social media in both their lives. And Andrew's claiming of the term Magnificent Weirdo.  If you missed the previous interviews go check out episodes 44, 58, and 72 first.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Barbara can be found at her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book a reading or private lesson with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast, everybody. I am here today with Barbara Moore, and this is essentially our fourth annual check in and hang out. We started these conversations a number of years back, and just sort of fell into the habit of kind of following up and seeing where life has gotten to and what's going on. And you know, I think it's going to be an interesting episode because we're … For both of us, it's been a year of a lot of change, and, you know, a lot of transformation and [00:00:32] you know, so yeah, let's get to it.  Hey Barbara, what's going on? What's new?  BARBARA: (laughing) What's new … We have just celebrated our one-year anniversary in our new home. It's, like you said, been a year of a lot of change, you said transformation. I don't think that my stuff is actually in the transforming (laughs) [00:01:02] stage yet. It's still in the … Feels like it's still in the breaking down phase. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I really think it would be more the end of the transformation, like the butterfly stage by now, but that has not happened.  ANDREW: Uh-huh.  BARBARA: But I suppose, what's new? The biggest newest thing that's been kind of a theme this year for me has been death. Death has been new to me. I have not had a lot of death in my life. [00:01:34] And so, I've had a lot of it pretty close and intimate, really intimate, this year. In fact, the most intimate … wow, we're going to start right off with the big stuff … the most intimate connection with death on one level, I had just one week ago today. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And that was when …? Okay. So, the … how ... the place we live in is attached to a house on [00:02:04] property owned by a couple named Carol and Noel. I did mention them last year. And, and Noel died on Friday. And this is not unexpected. He was quite old, and was in hospice and dying for quite some time. And Carol knows that I have done a little bit of priestess work, little bit of ritual stuff. And so, the hospice caregiver was preparing Noel's [00:02:34] body. Oh, because they didn't take the body away to a mortuary or anything like that. They kept him at home, and—for a week—and he just went away on Thursday, and so he wasn't going to be embalmed or anything.  And so, the hospice caregiver asked, and Carol asked, if I would help prepare his body, which (laughs) was really freaky for me because I've never done anything [00:03:04] like that. I've never been a good, you know … Some people are good caregivers, you know, like if someone's sick, they're good at taking care of them and comforting and cleaning. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I've never been that. It's just not something that has been a strength for me. And, you know, but part of this whole year is doing things that scare me. And so, yeah, so I helped wash [00:03:34] him, and then we crumbled up lavender into some oil and anointed his whole body, and dressed him, and I … It's been a week and I still, I've told people I can't really talk about it yet, because I haven't fully processed what I think or feel about that situation, and even just talking about it, I can feel the fluttering in my chest, you know, like a sign of anxiety that [00:04:04] I haven't really finished processing that experience. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: But I guess we could say that that's really metaphoric for what this past year has been. I've been getting up close and personal with death in many forms and still sorting out my relationship with it. ANDREW: Death is one of those things that we don't … I mean, I consider [00:04:34] myself a person who's comparatively really comfortable with death. I'm very, you know, close and aware of death. You know, I mean, I've been through a lot of very close loss in my life, you know, my … Two of my brothers passing away, and, you know, the people that I've known passing away, and I think that … Death is always an uncomfortable companion. Even if you are, [00:05:04] relatively speaking, comfortable with it being around, you know, it's always … It's never, it's never entirely settled, and I think that, you know … Like grief, grief is never entirely settled, you know, it might be 20 years and some conjunction of things will kick some little pocket of it back up into the foreground again, you know. So. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah. I think what [00:05:35] has driven me for most of my life is making things, producing things, working, and I think whenever any kind of loss comes to me, into my life, I would just kind of pat it down and run over it and just keep going. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, like it's not affecting me. It happened. It's done, move on, move on, and this [00:06:05] year, the kinds of death have been really much larger, and I've been not working much. I mean, I've been doing my regular work like I explained in the last podcast. I did kind of have the year off, except for, you know, just the basic work, just keep feeding myself, but I've had a lot more downtime and quiet time, and it's almost like I needed training wheels to feel, [00:06:35] cause I'm not, I wasn't used to, what am I feeling? Even just even letting the feeling come to the surface, and then the next step, identifying it, and what you do with it, and how does it fit in with where you want to go with your life, or whatever, and cause I don't even know what order I should tell all the stories. But just this example of feeling the feelings associated with death, just met ... [00:07:05] my father also died. He died in September, and I just started … just like last night, actually. I started feeling the feelings of grief, you know, like, oh my God, I miss him so much, and you know, so it's been almost two months, and I … And it's just happening now, you know.  And my beloved [00:07:35] companion Whiskey, my golden retriever, died in June and I wasn't home to say goodbye to her. I was in Minnesota at the time. And you know, it took like a couple months for those feelings to come up. So, you know, I feel like even though I'm into my 50s, I have had little practice with this compared to most people my age. So, it has been real interesting.  Oh, and that [00:08:05] reminds me too, right before I moved, my friend Nancy and I were messing around with our cards and stuff, and she's like, “Well, let's pull a card and see, you know, what big theme you can expect from this move.” And she pulled the Death card, of course, and was like, “Oh, wow, this is going to change your life in more ways than you think!” And she pulled another card. And it was the Emperor. And she's like, you know, because I'm a very structured person, a very organized person. She's like, “It's going to really blow that part of you [00:08:35] to bits.” But what she couldn't have known, and of course hindsight is, you know … The Emperor, for a lot of people, is associated with a father figure, you know, so it's like “your father will die.” Okay, but again, it's all metaphor, and it's all tied together, and bigger themes, and then I was writing to one of my pen friends and I was giving her my new P.O. box number and she's like, “Oh, your P.O. box numbers add up to 13. It's a Death year for you.” I went, “Oh, wow. Okay.” So, [00:09:05] yeah.  ANDREW: Do you, do you follow the year card system? Are you ... For, you know, birth cards and year cards? Is that a thing for you?  BARBARA: I do ... My birth cards and the year cards, I don't, I do some years, and some years I don't. And I don't even know if I know what mine was. I didn't think I needed another one. Okay, I think I'll just ... The Death card wants to be my card this year. I think we'll just go with it. Of course, knowing ... You know, when you don't have a real [00:09:35] experience with it, it can feel like, “Ooh, it's exciting, things are going to change,” because in the past, in my life, when things have changed, it's always been like, good, and pretty easy, and exciting, and not involving all of this that we're having here. Yeah.  ANDREW: Well, you know, I think that death, death, death on all those levels is always such a complicated [00:10:07] companion, right? You know? I mean, coming to the endings of things is, you know, in some ways, a relief, especially for Noel. Right? I mean that's a, that's a relief, right? of that sort of, you know, slow movement across that line, you know? But the kind of change that it tends to bring isn't really, you know, it … Even if it's sudden, even if the change is sudden, [00:10:37] the energy of it sort of lingers, right? You know, like Crowley talks about the Death card as sort of … Sometimes it's the fall of the scythe and sometimes it's this, like, putrefaction, this slow breaking down and rotting of things, right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: And hang out and sort of watch elements of yourself or your life kind of decompose, right? Like we were talking about before we got on the line today, you know? It's like that black [00:11:07] phase, that nigredo phase, in alchemy, right? Where, you know, everything just starts to like, break down, and it's, you know, that's the long dark night of the soul time, right? Where all of a sudden, you're like, “I don't know where anything was going. I don't know what any of this means anymore. Does any of this matter?” Right?  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. The “does any of this matter?” has been a really strong push, or no, it's been a strong question in me this [00:11:37] year. You know, whenever I think of doing something or ... maybe I should take up a project, maybe I should get back to work, maybe I should do something, and like what, what's worth … What does it matter? ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And I really truly hope I don't stay in this space for much longer because it is not comfortable. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember when … In the months after my brothers died. And for those who don't know, two of my brothers passed [00:12:07] within six weeks of each other, it's about nine years ago now, and so it was … It was really intense the first time, and then it was just, double down, you know, sort of six weeks later. And you know, like, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Trying to, you know, like underst-, what does any of it even mean any more after this kind of situation? And all those kinds of questions. [00:12:37] And the thing I kind of kept coming back to was, Well, I've got to do something with my time regardless. So, what is it I want to do? (laughing) What is it ... Like, is it just eat a bucket of ice cream? That's fine too. Right? Is it, you know, something else? What is it? Cause I've got to do something with my time other than just sit and wonder if any of it means anything, you know? You know? You know? And so, that kind of ultimately, you [00:13:08] know, led me, led me out of most of it, you know, and back into sort of being in the world and being engaged in things, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, hopefully that will start happening with me. I have spent my fair share of time just laying on the bed, you know, being all angsty and eating ice cream and whatnot. [00:13:38] But I've also done, you know, I've been reading more fiction, nothing that's, you know, enlightening my mind or anything, and painting nothing worth showing anybody. I have stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff that is completely pointless, and I'm like, why am I doing this? It's the only thing I feel like doing so I'm doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: It feels really [00:14:08] indulgent in a weird way.  ANDREW: But isn't that part of what life is about? Like, I think that life as opposed to death is about indulgence, right? BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: No, maybe I'm too Sagittarian and too Jupitarian in that regard. But, you know, I think that life really is about indulging those things and you know, somewhat like the Fool, right? If we indulge those things, whatever meaning [00:14:38] there is will emerge over time. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, as opposed to this idea that I think that we often have that we can determine what the meaning is and then, you know, set on a course of embodying that. You know, I mean, it's like a thing that I think I said to you a long time ago, right? Like, you know, the road knows what star is yours, but you can't figure it out before you leave the house, right? You know? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Yeah.   BARBARA: Yeah. That's so contrary to the way I've lived [00:15:08] my life, and, as you're speaking those words again, I can feel the truth and beauty in them; at the same time, I feel part of myself resisting. ANDREW: Sure.  BARBARA: So. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, it is definitely the black phase of alchemy, man. This breaking down, this breaking down, like when I left social media, a lot of it was fueled by, I was shaping my self-image based [00:15:38] on how people on social media saw me or responded to me. And so, I wanted to not let that be driving how I was shaping myself. But, and so, taking that away, what's left? What's take what shaping myself is my work? It's always been my work. What am I doing? What am I putting out there? How much am I teaching, how many books am I publishing, how many decks am I creating, what am I doing? And [00:16:08] like you said, we can't always set the outcome and move toward it and embody it and manifest it. Sometimes it's just all something my friend Ricardo says, similar to what you said, is, you can't see the path in the woods until you're in the woods, you know? It's dark and you can't see it until you're there. And yeah, so, you know, what are all the [00:16:38] paintings? They're mostly portraits of strangers, people I don't know ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, just like stock images or, you know there are these sites that, where people post pictures for artists to use as reference ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And it's all I'm doing is painting these strangers. It's just very weird. ANDREW: Well, I think that's really interesting, cause you never really know what's gonna come back around. I have this painting on the wall in the shop that I did. [00:17:09] I don't even know how long ago. It has no date on it. Seven or eight years ago maybe? And it's of a ... it's of a red-wing blackbird. And you know, I I've been thinking about making art again and showing art. I was in a show recently and sort of thinking about sort of the idea of not just making sort of decks and stuff like that. I mean still making those things as well, but also making [00:17:39] art for the sake of making art to show and share, you know, and ... And I was looking at this painting which has been, you know, in my reading room the whole time since I made it, so for a long time now. And I was like ... And I was talking to an artist and talking about how inspired I was by Basquiat and their really large works that they painted. You know, [00:18:09] they had a showing here in Toronto awhile back and some of the paintings are like six-foot square and stuff like that. And I'm feeling this urge to work big, I'm like, but I don't really have space to work big, you know, all the excuses come in, and then like I was looking at this painting of a bird and I was thinking, and then immediately I was like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to photograph that, I'm going to blow it up, and then I'm going to paint on top of it and make it into a new painting through that process. And so, I [00:18:39] just got the prints, so they're two by two by three feet big, as opposed to like, five by eight or something like that, which the small thing is originally, and I'm going to mount it to some kind of board and then I'm going to start reworking on top of it, stuff like that. So, you just never know what comes back around, you know, like those strangers may emerge in some really new way or lead to something else, you know?  BARBARA: Are you going to use acrylics on top of that, or ... ? ANDREW: [00:19:10] I'm going to ... I'm going to use ... I have these acrylic markers. So, I'm going to use those. And I'm going to use ink, so I'm going to like go in and I want to do a mix of big scale stuff on it and really really super intimate things, like, you know, like the branch at the bird is sitting on because [00:19:40] it was painted small is essentially just a few very simple strokes of simple colors, right? But I'm going to go in embellish that, and then I'm going to go in and work with some varnish and stuff. So, some stuff will be really varnished and shiny from certain angles, and like I have a bunch of ideas about it. And then I feel like I can also feel there's some other birds like, “Hey, do me next. Do me next!” BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: So, you know, I feel like it's going to become a body of something, right? [00:20:10] But what that is, I don't really know, but you know, they've always been my companions, right? You know, I mean, I have this habit of I just go and follow the birds through the woods until they stop and then I realize where I need to be and stop and hang out with the Earth and that place and things like that, right? So, I have a very like strong connection to them. So, yeah. BARBARA: God, I can't wait to see. It sounds like it's going to be really really cool. I'm feeling excited for the process for you just hearing about it. ANDREW: Yeah. It's been [00:20:45] a long time since I ... since I had a sir purely process-driven thing and it's been a long time since I made ... Like I'm not even sure the last time I made a piece of art that wasn't for a deck, you know girls. It's been quite some time since I've since I did that. So. Yeah. Yeah.  BARBARA: I was just thinking, you know, we kind of led with the heavy stuff, which seems natural, it's been on my mind, [00:21:15] but I wonder maybe it wouldn't be nice to have a little interlude of a few happy or positive things that have already been kind of coming out of the ashes.  ANDREW: Yeah! BARBARA: Just so people don't get too depressed and quit listening. (laughs) But, you know, one of the things is ... I have two examples I'd love to share. The first is regarding my father's death. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, my father. He had [00:21:45] five kids: me and two sisters from my mom, and then my sister and brother from my stepmother. So there's five of us. And out of the five of us, three of us are really close, me and two of my sisters, and then the other two live in Michigan still and not quite as close. And one of the things my dad always said was he wished that we were all closer. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: That was super important to him and [00:22:15] he ... When things started getting bad for him in July, my siblings and I started a sibling text chain just so we could ... and just so we could keep up on stuff .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And all be fully informed. And throughout the process between July and October, that ... the time when he was like actively dying and in hospice and then planning the funeral and whatnot, my siblings and I worked [00:22:46] together, not like a well-oiled machine cause that sounds so cold, but like a bunch of dancers who know their steps and that complement each other. And so that was just really super amazing. And then when the funeral, which was in Michigan, all my siblings were already there and I was flying in, like the day before, and so I get to the Detroit airport and my [00:23:16] siblings text me and they're like, we're all here. Like, so it was just us five siblings, without spouses, without kids, without anything, just the five of us and I don't remember the last time the five of us were alone together and all in one place. So we stopped for a drink on the way home, and just you know, toasting dad and sharing stories, sharing intimate moments that we had with our dad that we'd never told anyone before .... ANDREW: Right. BARBARA:  You know and just got really really [00:23:46] close. And in that weekend of the funeral, it was like my dad's last gift to us. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: He made a situation where we all fell in love with each other. ANDREW: That's wonderful. BARBARA: It really, it really is wonderful. And you know, so I'm so grateful for that because we still have that text chain going and you know, at least once a week we're, you know, sharing things about our lives and you know, encouraging each other, so that was super awesome. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And [00:24:18] a real blessing. Then the other was, it's a little bit still close, but it was still like such a remarkable experience, was you know, like I said, Noel died. And so we kept him at home and people would come, you know, to just sit with him and be with people, you know, kind of like a wake kind of thing.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Oh, oh, but I do need to tell you this little local flavor thing, you know cause I do live here in this little tiny valley [00:24:48] and the technology is pretty sketchy. And you know, there's no like Potter Valley Facebook group or anything where people share what's going on. They do it the old-fashioned way. Like when the fires were happening this summer, there's this one kind of a park area where everyone who comes in and out of the valley drives past, and they had a big like a sandwich board sign where they had updates on the fire and a map of the evacuation areas and [00:25:18] stuff. You know, and that's how people found out stuff.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And so, for Noel's funeral, we wanted--or whatever. It wasn't really a funeral, we'll call it a funeral. We wanted to let people know, and so, Dylan and I made, you know, two really big cardboard signs saying, just saying, that Noel passed away. Community visiting at his home and the hours and hung one up at the corner store [00:25:48] and one on the corner of the street where we live. And that's how we communicated the information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And one time, you know, we were walking, Dylan and I were out walking out to visit the Pigs who live on the corner where the sign was, and you know a man was driving up the mountain. He stops and he's like, “Oh so, you know, Noel died.” Yeah, yeah, you know, just people talk more, it's more face-to-face or, very old school.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Well anyways, back [00:26:18] to the cool part was: when you're getting cremated, apparently, they give you this cardboard box that's, you know, you put the body in and so we left it out in a large area of the house with a bunch of art supplies and people decorated it.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: You know, so he ... By the time it was done, it was just like covered in pictures and symbols and Sufi prayers and all kinds of other prayers and blessings [00:26:48] and gratitude and things for him. So, you know, he was sent off to his, you know, final physical whatever before he got cremated in this, not a beautiful wooden brass box, but this cardboard, little, holy, humble, cardboard box decorated with all this love and amazement. It was just really different than anything I'd ever experienced before and just how loved he was by the community and it [00:27:19] was just a really really awesome experience. It's amazing.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Okay, happy interlude's done.  ANDREW: Happy interlude's done! (laughing) ANDREW: You know, I mean I guess, I think that there's something that I'm curious about. Now you're talking about social media again, right? You know? And like, are you going to go back? Do you ... is there anything [00:27:49] that you need from it? If you go back, how does it ... how does it impact your way of formulating your identity, you know and like those kinds of things? And I'm really, I'm really interested in this right now because .... Because in some ways, I feel like, you know, not, not recently but sort of historically, I've been somewhat absent from my social [00:28:19] media. You know, my social media has always been about the work or the things versus about me as a person. You know? And, not entirely but I mean, the podcast is definitely the place where, you know, I'm more visible, you know, or I'm more audible, I guess, as the case may be. And, you know, and I've been consciously changing that over the last while. You know? And changed [00:28:50] in part because of some conversations I had with, you know, Carrie and a few other people about stuff.  But mostly they're changing because I had this dream ... I often have dreams with Andy Warhol in them. And you know, he often comes to give me advice and tell me about stuff, and in some ways, my return to making art is also at his prompting. And the first dream that I [00:29:20] had, I was hanging out with Andy at his famous warehouse, you know, and we were there talking about making art and being seen and all of this kind of stuff. And he kind of like, we were talking, like, and he just stopped the conversation at one point in the middle of like something else, and he goes, “Andrew, you don't understand, you're a magnificent weirdo, and the world needs that right now. The world needs you to show everybody [00:29:50] your magnificent weirdness because that's what they're, what's important, and that's what's going to, you know, be significant about your work and your art and all of these things.” And I was like, in the dream I was like, “All right, Andy, I can do that. No problem,” right? And then we went on to talk about making art and other things and so on, right? And before we went on, though, he also turned around and sort of announced loudly to everyone's faces, you know, “Andrew's a magnificent weirdo, and you all should be paying attention to what he's doing,” right? [00:30:20] Something like that. And so, I've been thinking about Andy Warhol, and thinking about social media, and thinking about all of these kinds of things, and really endeavoring to sort of engage it on my own terms, you know, and really sort of share what I think is important or helpful. Helpful—helpful's the wrong word for it. Cause I'm not so interested in what's helpful. But share what [00:30:50] feels really real and what feels really particular to me, you know? And you know, I made this shirt up, that I started wearing around, that says “magnificent weirdo” on it.  BARBARA: Aw! ANDREW: Which I find particularly amusing. You know, it's kind of my talismanic t-shirt, so.  BARBARA: Oh! I love that! You ARE a magnificent weirdo. That's ... How wonderful to have Andy Warhol as your advisor and, well, maybe not muse, but your advisor ... (laughs) ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. [00:31:21] Does that mean you're starting to engage your social media more as ... more personally, then?  ANDREW: Yeah, definitely more personally. Definitely, I'm showing up there more. I'm sharing more of my life, you know, definitely, it's definitely a thing that's sort of continuing to emerge, you know, and especially as I'm getting into making art, like I don't know what these bird things are going to be, but I'm going [00:31:51] to share that process and journey along the way, you know. And, yeah, sharing more of my personal story and that kind of stuff. So, whereas in the past, I would sort of have tended to just leave stuff alone until it felt resolved and then share the resolved story of it, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I've always ... I haven't always successfully done but I've always tried. Like, I knew [00:32:21] this one teacher who was talking about, you know, public speaking, and writing, and you know, you and your audience and he said, “Don't work your shit out in front of your audience.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And you know, so I've always tried to not do that. You know, like these people aren't here to be my therapy session. They're here to learn what I learned, you know to get something helpful but--to use your word--but maybe [00:32:51] that's not the only way to think about sharing. Maybe the only purpose of sharing isn't only what you may deem as helpful or a nice clean process or technique that you can also use to change your life or fix your life or improve your life. Just sharing your unique and awesome weirdness might have value. I don't ... How would you say that? Because you said not [00:33:21] necessarily be helpful, cause you're not interested in that. So, what is the effect, then?  ANDREW: So, I mean, for me the effect is ... and you know, I think it'll be interesting what comes back for people who listen to this episode, right? You know, I think that what happens is there's this notion that people who are in positions like we're in, right? You know, like working as a [00:33:51] card reader, having a degree of success, having published and done other things, right? That somehow, we've all got our shit together and we don't struggle and nothing's difficult, you know, and I think that you know, sort of, “Wow, you know, I mean, Barbara Moore didn't just bounce right back after the death of her dad, I guess I can cut myself some slack.” Or, you know, look at that, we're all human, or you know, like these kinds of things, I think that that's [00:34:21] that that's part of it. And I also think that, particularly in the magnificent weirdo case, you know, I mean I was ... I hadn't realized that I used this phrase until someone started mirroring it back to me every time I used it, which is, you know, I would say, “Well, it's funny being me sometimes,” and then I would like say something [00:34:51] that was like, really really different about my life compared to many people's lives, right? And you know, and they were .... this person was always amused by it. But I started to realize that like, my, I don't see my life as a role model at all, but my life is super radically different than so many people's. You know? I mean, you know, we talked a little bit about but, before about this, I've mentioned before in the podcast, [00:35:21] I'm getting divorced right now, right? You know. Myself and Hanlon sort of both realized that you know, after quite a stretch of time, we've come to this place where what we want and who we've become is just different, you know? We really, you know, have a very different ... We have different goals and they don't really line up in ways that don't start to kind of curtail each other's possibilities, [00:35:51] right? Which is something that neither of us is really wanting to happen, right? You know. So, you know, so this year has been, has been, really, like the last six months has been working through that process and so on, right?  But, you know, I mean, I'm ... I've been in a non-monogamous relationship for, you know, the last three and a half, four years or something. And, you know, [00:36:21] before we had kids, almost the whole time of our relationship before that. So, I'm not ending this relationship and then figuring out who am I and how do I start dating again and you know, all of these kinds of things. You know, I mean, I have a relationship with, you know, this person, Sarah, who I've been seeing for two-and-a-half years, and there are other dates that I've gone on and other connections and so on. So, even just that: it's such a [00:36:51] different perspective than almost anybody that I know in that regard. Right? And doing what I do for a living, and you know, my religious practices, and like so many of the things that I do are just so radically different and, not that that is either a role model or the way in which people should see things or whatever, but I find that as I share those things, it's ... It [00:37:21] opens up people's ideas and sort of gives them permission to be like, huh? Well, what would I like to do that's maybe not the thing that's done. Or what would, you know, am I interested in these sort of ideas that I've been living? Do they serve me anymore? You know? Or maybe I've always wanted to be more this way or that way or whatever and so sort of seeing those things happen in other people's lives, you [00:37:51] know, to get ... It's a, it's a chance to inspire people not to be like me, but to be like themselves, right? So, yeah and again, not in a like, “I've got it figured out in this and that whatever way, cause it's not like that at all, right? But in a like, huh, you know, hang out with me as an invitation to be fully yourself, right? You know. [00:38:21] And for a lot of people, you know, that's not necessarily something that they get a lot of invitation to, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah! Right. Probably not nearly enough people get that invitation. There's so many other forces helping tell us who we should be and how to live. ANDREW: Right? Yeah. And internalized forces too, right? Like even if, even if they're not around us now, you know, those older voices, they can still kick around, right?  BARBARA: Oh, [00:38:51] and maybe even like instinctual survival impulses, you know, like to survive in the world you have to be successful and you have to be this .... ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, and so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot trying to box us in and very little inviting us out. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: But then we have an awesome weirdo to help us! ANDREW: (laughing) Yeah. BARBARA: (laughing) Yeah, I definitely get and [00:39:21] appreciate the value of that approach, and its budding up against one of my older, and perhaps, just society's older idea. You know, if someone's going to write a book or teach, you expect them, or this used to be true, or maybe it was just true for me and people like me, you expect them to be masters of what they're teaching. And therefore, we get all worked out and you [00:39:52] know, when a book comes out or a kit or a deck comes out, it's usually a really happy excited moment, like, “Oh, my thing has hit the world and it's out there.” And I didn't really have that same experience with one of my recent books, The Modern Guide to Energy Clearing? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Because, you know, I wrote the book based on my experiences. And now I'm, [00:40:22] this past year, I've been in a place where, I feel like, if I would have practiced everything I preached in that book, I'd be way further along than I am now, in terms of adjusting, and I don't know, not being in this black alchemical place. But it made me shy, maybe a little embarrassed, to go .... because there were a lot of publicity opportunities, unlike all my tarot stuff, [00:40:52] which there's hardly any, with this book there were invitations to radio shows and bookstores and all kinds of things, and I didn't do all of them. I did some of them because I felt like I owed it to the book and to my publisher. And you know, you have a responsibility when you're partnering with a publisher. It's not just your thing. It's their investment as well. And I think part of what made me really shy about it is cause I was in the midst of [00:41:23] “You guys, I have these tools, these techniques, these skills, this knowledge and I am too--I am too raw to do 'em.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And, it just felt almost hypocritical, and perhaps there needs to be another book, or maybe just an article that explains when you're doing energy work, sometimes you have to just let things sit and decompose and [00:41:53] you don't always get to control how fast that happens. So, yeah. ANDREW: I think that this idea of the ... like the wise teacher who's got their, all their stuff together. I think it's really a problem. I think it's really dishonest and [00:42:23] I think that it's why .... I think that it's one of the forces that allows so many problematic things to exist in a variety of communities, right? I think that it's one of the things that you know, at it ... at one of its worsts, right? encourages, you know, stuff that we could, you know, that the me too movement seeks to address, right? Because the perception is that these teachers [00:42:53] or leaders or community people or whatever, you know, in the spiritual communities have their stuff so together, right? And how could they not? And therefore this other person must be the problem? You know. I think it's one of the mechanisms which that happens under. And I think that ... I think that it sort of comes out of the sort of ... Well, I mean, I don't know where it originates from, but like in the ceremonial stuff in the more hierarchical [00:43:23] and initiatory things that I used to be involved in, in those ways. There was this notion that somehow, we would become perfect. Right? We would become enlightened. We would achieve these things. You know, but like, you know, my elders in, you know, in the Lukumí tradition, they're always like, “I'm just a person doing things. I'm doing my best, but like, I'm not perfect.” And there's no expectation to be perfect. [00:43:53] There's an expectation to cultivate character, to work on yourself, to you know, to grow, to be honest, and you know, and ideally to sort of continually seek out those things in yourself that you might need to work on in one way or another. But there's no expectation to sort of necessarily be perfect or, you know, be free of humanness, because it's not about transcendence, it's about living in this world, right? [00:44:23]  And I think that a lot of the, you know, especially the stuff that people might refer to as sort of the love and light movement, you know? It's so ... there's so much emphasis on sort of transcendence and so on that, you know, that we continually hear about these people whose humanness re-emerges or finally is seen in a certain way. And then ... and then what does that mean for those people, you know? From my point of view, It doesn't mean anything. Just like you being raw, of [00:44:53] course you're raw after all of these losses, right? Of course you are. Because you know, we shouldn't deny the reality or the shadow or you know, our suffering, because life is hard, but we can work at handling it easier, better, more consciously. You know? Maybe more consciously is the best way to frame it, but that doesn't mean that we're suddenly able to do everything, you know? I mean, I keep joking--and maybe it's not even a joke anymore, [00:45:23] maybe it's just a statement of what's going to happen. You know when the separation happens and we both have our own places and whatever. I'm like, I'm just gonna sleep for a week. It's going to  be like, the first week I'm just gonna be like, okay, shut everything off and just stay in bed and order pizzas and, you know, nap a lot and watch Netflix, cause, you know, I need some like nothing time. I need some recharging after all this work, you know? And I think that, you know, that's valid. [00:45:53] You know? That's not anti-spiritual. You know? Oh well. I feel like I'm ranting now so I'll stop. BARBARA: Yeah, no, you're preaching, preach it, brother! (laughing) I'm ... Congregation of one, right here!  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, no, it reminds me of a funny thing my ... one of my sisters would always say to me. Well, not always, it's happened a couple of times when I have like very obviously and [00:46:23] clearly fallen short of my own ideals and I'm all upset about it. And she's like, “I love it when this happens to you.” “What do you mean?” “Because you seem more human to me in these moments.” And this is my sister, you know, and I don't want any walls between her and I and I don't want to be on a higher place or on some transcendent plane or whatever. I [00:46:53] want to be with her. And so, when I screw up, that's when I'm with her more, at least on some level.  ANDREW: Yeah for sure. Well, it's, you know ... I've been doing ... For the last few years, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing. And you know, I've been sort of ramping back into it after being injured doing something else earlier in the year and climbing with some old friends, but some new climbing partners. And [00:47:23] the one, the guy was like, “It makes me so happy when I see you struggle on the wall. I'm sorry, but like usually you're just so graceful about it that I feel like it just looks so easy to you, and even though you come down and I can see that you're like panting cause it was so hard, you made it look so easy that it just makes me feel bad about myself. So, when you struggle it makes me feel better about myself!” And I'm like, that's fine. That's fair too. Right? Like, you know. I think that that's, that's part of it, right? [00:47:53] You know, when we get to see other people's humanity, then we get to see and make space for our own, in one way or another, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said the idea of the wise old teacher has some inherent problem. And maybe people in general, or maybe a new idea of the archetypal teacher is starting to emerge, or maybe a new facet of it, as we're starting [00:48:23] to explore, you know, or maybe things will change, maybe we'll expect different things from our teachers.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that what I expect of my teachers are really kind of two things. You know, you used the word mastery earlier, right? And I think that certainly knowledge, right? You know, I mean, I expect them to really deeply know what they're, like, I'm there to learn knowledge from [00:48:53] them. And, so that's one part of it. And then the other part is, you know, is like honest relationships, you know? And having honest relationships debate what's going on and what's going on with them and space for me to be honest about what's going on for me and so on. You know, I think that those things together are what I really expect, you know, and like, you know, it's I've had the chance to meet a lot [00:49:23] of people who, you know, in one way or other, people would see as sort of wise masters or whatever, you know? And they're lovely human beings, and they're still human beings. You know? And I think that that's never not going to be the case, right? You know? Yeah. BARBARA: Well, I told you earlier one of the things that I ... the only thing I did really to prepare for today's conversation was to [00:49:53] relisten to last year's podcast.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And, you were just ... sounded like you were just starting to explore something kind of new and interesting that I was excited to hear more about and now I'd love to hear more about the work with meteorites and moldavite.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that ... I think in some ways that [00:50:23] work was precipitation of the separation and divorce stuff, right? You know? I mean, I think that the idea of ... I mean, you know, it certainly wasn't consciously formulated, but, you know, the sort of idea of possibly, you know, I mean, the metaphor that I was working with of was like the idea of moving to [00:50:53] a bigger space, right? Leaving the planet and being an interstellar traveler and sort of engaging a bigger world, a variety of planets, you know, like this kind of idea, right? And I think that one of the things that that energy supported me through was and is through the idea of separating from my partner of 21 years, so that's definitely been a part of it.  I [00:51:23] also feel like this one's harder to talk about it because I feel like it's still underway, but I feel like the shop that I have, my work as a deck creator and author, and my work magically have all been sort of escalating into new places. And I feel like, [00:51:53] especially sort of going into next year, I'm going to be really living a completely different reality. And I imagine there's going to be a lot more space for my spiritual stuff in that newer reality. So, I think that that's a part of what's come of that transition.  And also, I think the other thing that I've sort of ... I'm [00:52:23] still working on sorting it out on a practical level, but there's this ... There's this software company, or company that makes a software called Basecamp, and they structure their company work around these eight-week cycles. So basically, they, one of the things that I heard about what they do is that they have a six-week [00:52:53] work cycle, one week of cleanup and planning the next work cycle, and then they take a week off. And I've been really sort of starting to think about how do I, in order to make the arts and the magic and the other things that I would want to be doing and feel called to be doing, I need more space, right? I need more time. And you know, so I've been, I also [00:53:23] feel like that changing notion of what my space and time is going to look like is also kind of come out of that work, right? This idea that I can be somehow in between things. You know? Now's the time where I'm on Mars doing Mars things, and now I'm back floating in the space of my in-between time, doing whatever that is, and then go back to the next place, and you know, and the metaphor doesn't entirely hold but I think the idea, you know, makes [00:53:53] sense, right? That, so it's really ... It's about allowing. Allowing for the space and letting go of all those sort of structures and ideas that sort of hinder that possibility and making space for that to happen, you know? And I mean, I'm not sure how long it's going to take for me to completely reorganize my life and work and other things into that, into that direction. You know, it might take another year or whatever. But it doesn't really matter. But I feel [00:54:23] like all of those pieces kind of come out of, come out of that work that started with the meteorites, you know, a year or so ago. BARBARA: Cool, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: Yeah, it's a work of shedding and becoming, right? You know, and I don't think that I was aware of the shedding of house. I was aware of the shedding at a sort of big picture level, but I wasn't aware of it as a sort of more personal [00:54:53] level when I started that. So, yeah. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, are you ... Do you think you're gonna find your way back to the to the wider world or do you think that you're ... I feel like you've been on a hermitage in the valley in the mountains. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, do you feel like that's something that's just going to continue? Or do you feel like it's time to shift that? BARBARA: That is a really good question, [00:55:23] really pertinent question at this point. I have just been starting to have, like, actual feelings about wanting to come out of my hermitage. It's super hard to do that cause it's my natural inclination. It's where I would be, always, if people who loved me weren't concerned about my mental and emotional health (laughs), but [00:55:55] living here, but like I said, it's so old school that it really feeds that. Like when I was in the cities and when I was involved in the wider world, it ... sometimes it felt like if it isn't seen by people on the Internet, it isn't real? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I'm sure that's just a me thing. I don't think it's like everybody has that feeling, but it was definitely affecting me like that. But there are, like there's [00:56:25] a women's circle here that meets every couple of weeks. It's, you know, not set, exactly, it's probably two or three weeks. And it's just some women who get together and just talk. And sometimes it's just casual talk, like book club level talk. And sometimes it's super deep. Then sometimes it's spiritual, sometimes it's scientific, and it's really great, but it's very small and it's just the valley, and it's not posted anywhere, and no one knows about it. It's not like [00:56:55] putting transcripts out for ... You know, it's not out there, it's just in, and like I said, just the cardboard signs, it's just all small and hidden away, kind of, and I really, it feels really safe, it feels really nice, it feels really authentic. It feels good to me. But, just over the past week or so, I have been like, I want to get out. I want to take a class. I want to [00:57:25] do something. But then I second-guess myself cause one of the things when I was in the midst of stuff this year, I kept wanting to sign up for a class or do this or do that and Dylan's like, “You know, you do have this tendency that whenever you're avoiding dealing with something, you want to take a class.” (laughs) You know, and ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Oh, okay, that makes sense. So now I'm in this space where I'm feeling this urge. Like I don't really know exactly what I want to do, but I want to get out of here. I want to have some [00:57:55] some regular contact with the outside world in some way. And I'm like, oh, does this mean I'm, you know, coming up against my emotions about my dad and haven't dealt with them yet and I'm trying to avoid that? So, yeah, I am feeling it. Yes. I think it's going to happen. I'm not exactly sure when or how it's going to happen. Earlier you had mentioned when you said you were gonna interview me and some people said to say hi and whatnot. It [00:58:25] make my heart really happy and also a little sad and very emotional. Many feelings were happening and it was like well, maybe I could be back on Facebook, and maybe I could just post about my life like I used to, and maybe that's okay. And I hadn't really been this close to thinking that in a couple of years. So.  And as far as like work, I mean I have still worked. Even though I said I [00:58:55] had the year off, I have written two books and designed a deck. So, it's not like I haven't been doing stuff to put out there, but I haven't been super publicity-oriented. I haven't been teaching. I've had invitations to workshops and to teach classes, which is more public, more connected with the world, and I keep turning them down. I still think I'm not interested in that. I think I did that a lot because it was expected. It was a natural part of this [00:59:25] work that you and I do, and I think I can be good at it. But I'm not sure if I love it. Yeah, so I'm still struggling about, you know, do I want to keep doing that or speaking at conferences or whatever. You know, especially these ones where it's like you have 50 minutes. Because I feel like a lot of the things I'm thinking about now .... They're not like, here's a simple technique that you can use. It's more like, here's a book [00:59:55] on what I thought about this one thing. You know, I just ...  So, yeah, but I would love to take an art class. I think that's what I would like. I think that's one thing my art is missing, is because I do love the process of it and that's more important than the outcome, but there's still something fulfilling about increasing your skill and being able to skillfully make what you're envisioning, you [01:00:25] know, so I would like that, and I think with that if I had some, you know, peers who are struggling as well as a teacher who's helping guide, that would probably be really good. So ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Of course, the nearest place to take art classes around here is an hour and a half away, but that's what happens when you live here in the mountains.  ANDREW: Right.  BARBARA: So.  ANDREW: I wonder if there are ... I wonder, are there are other artists in the community that you could hang out and have conversations with and so on, [01:00:55] you know? As somebody who went to art school, I'm always ... I'm cynical about art and art lessons and art school and formal training and all of those things because it basically, you know, in my experience, and my experience is very particular, but it basically just ruined all of that for me for a very long time, you know? So, but it depends on who you're working with and why, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah. [01:01:31] Well, and this wouldn't be like an art school or even a college art course, it's just workshops held at the local art store. You know. I don't know how that is, cause I've never taken, you know, an art school class. So I don't know. Yeah. That or, or, the other thing I'd been excited about when we moved here was the idea of pursuing interfaith ministry. I haven't ... I thought I'd be a year into those studies already, back in the days when I thought everything was going to be fine. And I haven't done anything [01:02:01] with it and I'm still thinking about that. I haven't really ... The only work ritual designing I've done this year was had to do with Carol and Noel, because they ... when Noel's end was getting really close, they were like, well, you know, most marriage ceremonies say, have the words “until death do us part,” and the marriage ceremony itself is a ritual. And yet when one of the partners dies, there's [01:02:31] no ritual, you know, to wrap it up because if it's till death do you part, then what then? What, you know? And how do we untie this bond that we've made or do we, and to what extent or whatever? So, you know, we talked about that for a while and you know, kind of came to grips with what they wanted to do with each other. And then, of course, the challenge, because Noel by this time was not always with us mentally, you know, so keeping it [01:03:01] short and simple, you know, just a little ceremony for them to both release each other and to reaffirm their eternal love, in whatever way is appropriate, in the next life, perhaps, because they believe in reincarnation, you know, so you tie up all their beliefs into this ritual and knowing that was really satisfying and fulfilling, you know, just like other ceremonies I have done, so that's still there too.   ANDREW: [01:03:31] Yeah. At some point in the next little bit, Hanlon and I are going to go back to the place where we, where we performed our marriage ceremony, because we basically married ourselves, right? And we're going to ... and we're going to release the relationship, right? You know, and we're going to ... You know, we have these relatively simple silver rings. We're going to break them and then we're going to take this over and we'll have them melted down into stuff for the kids. So we'll [01:04:01] make a pendant for each of the kids, and then they can have that, but it won't be the ring anymore, you know. And you know, we have some other things that are sort of remnants of the original ceremony and stuff like that, which we're going to, you know, release in one way or another at the place where we did the ceremony as a way of just basically being like, you know, all right, you know, we signed the papers, we've done whatever, but also, I release everything, like this is just gone now, you know? And I think that that [01:04:31] kind of stuff is really important, you know? And I think that around death, around this, around all of it. It's really important, right? That's why these rituals matter, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Good for you guys.  ANDREW: But first, it's also going to be winter, so it's out on the island in Toronto. It's gonna be very cold and it's not going to be inviting like when, you know, we got married in the summer and we went for a swim afterwards in the lake and stuff. I don't think any of that's going to be happening, but, yeah not really into hypothermia anyway. [01:05:01]   BARBARA: But, also, it's kind of symbolically significant.  ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, maybe that's a good place to wrap this up for today. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Pursue things that are symbolically significant, people, be human. BARBARA: (laughing) That's right! ANDREW: Be weirdos! Hang out! Have fun! Thanks. Thanks so much for following up. I know, I know that this is a challenging time and I think that, I think [01:05:31] that what I've come to think about social media and about these kinds of things like the podcast and so on is, there's so much cynicism about it all, you know, people are so cynical and hear so many things about how meaningless it is and so on, and yet, personally I have some tremendously deep connections with people that are fostered, born, supported, or whatever out of, you [01:06:01] know, out of these things, and I think that if we're able to show up there consciously, then it can become something quite different. If we, if we do that. Otherwise, yeah, sure, we can share cat memes till the cows come home and they're funny, but you know, I'm not sure how many of them I remember down the road, right? BARBARA: Exactly, exactly! ANDREW: For sure. So, in case you decide to start blogging again, or whatever, where should people come and follow you, Barbara?  BARBARA: Yeah. Okay. My website is still the same, tarotshaman.com. My email is on there, BarbaraMoore07@comcast.net. [01:06:37] Please feel free to write, reach out. I may not be on social media, but I still do like hearing people and connecting, and even, keep your eyes open, you never know. I might come back and join the land of the living, join the the Magnificent weirdness that ... ANDREW: Come down off the mountain, Barbara! Come back to the city. (laughing) BARBARA: Yes. Yes. Yes. Come hang out! We can have market days or something. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Awesome. BARBARA: [01:07:10] Well, thank you so much for having me. I am already looking forward to next year. ANDREW: Perfect! 

How Testimonial Tree is Scaling Their Business With a Virtual Team Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest and founder of Testimonial Tree, Jason Dolle, shares with us how he is scaling his business with the help of a virtual team. Jason, who has an engineering background, started the Testimonial Tree to convert customer feedback and experiences into powerful tools that can help business owners grow their business, and in the process has grown a successful business of his own.                                                                                         Some of the areas covered include:   More about Testimonial Tree How Jason has grown his company by bringing the right people onboard at the right time The ways in which Jason communicates with his virtual team to keep everyone on a path for success The importance of planning now, for the future Let us know in the comments below what your key take out has been from this episode or why not join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Resources mentioned in this show: www.testimonialtree.com In this episode: 01:49 - What is Testimonial Tree? 03:26 - The power of stories 04:34 - How Testimonial Tree started out 06:55 - Funding helped grow the business 09:00 – Finding the right people… 11:49 - How do you run the company today? 13:12 - What is your communications plan? 18:54 - Have you had offshore staff? 20:25 - Tips for building a SaaS company 22:29 - Plan now for the future 25:35 - How long does it take to integrate a new recruit? 27:48 - Invest in your people 30:43 - How do I use VAs? 31:48 - Learn more about Testimonial Tree 36:04 - Wrapping things up Barbara: Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of the Virtual Success Show, where I'm flying solo today without my co-host Matt, but I've got an absolutely fantastic guest that I'm interviewing. Jason Dolle, who's the founder of Testimonial Tree. The beauty about this particular interview today is that Jason's background, he was actually an engineer, who started selling luxury real estate on the side. One of his clients flew in on a private jet and bought a $4.4 million home, and then flew out the same day. And Jason thought to himself, "How on earth do I get this guy to give me a testimonial?" Because testimonials are so strong. To cut a long story short, basically, Testimonial Tree was born out of that. From an engineer, it's now doing million dollar annual recurring revenue and has 95,000 customers with a 95% retention rate. And Jason's running a team of 10 people and is here to talk to us today about the challenges of growing a SaaS company and growing a team at the same time. Welcome to the show, Jason. Jason Dolle:  Yeah, thank you for having me. Barbara:  Cool. So, listen, Jason, give us a little bit of background first on Testimonial Tree. What is it? It's obviously a SaaS product out there in the market for people to get testimonials. But give us a kind of a feel of what it is. What is Testimonial Tree? Jason: Yeah, it's sort of evolved over the years. It started about 2013. I built it for myself just to mainly get my, like you said that one customer for example, to get him to share a testimonial on social media, because at least in US here, your licenced to sell real estate in a certain state, and you can't really do a lot of stuff outside the places you're licenced. So I was trying to get him to share his experience in a place where I normally couldn't get. So social media was the easiest way to do it. And that's how it started. And it's evolved since then, but what happened after that experience you just mentioned, some real estate broker here got wind of it, and said, "Hey, we can use this thing if you pay us." And it's grown exponentially since. Barbara:  Oh, so you had a business. Actually, it's a bit like Virtual Hope. Jason:  Yeah. Barbara:  I call it my accidental business. I didn't mean to launch it.

 How Brian Casel, Founder of Audience Ops, Has Built a Virtual Team of Specialists to Help Grow His Online Content Marketing BusinessWant the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest and founder of Audience Ops, Brian Casel, shares with us his experience of building a virtual team of content marketing specialists and how you may not always get it right the first time. Brian reveals that in order to grow a successful business in today's constantly evolving marketplace, business owners must remain responsive and ensure their own businesses continue to evolve. Some of the areas covered include:The initial challenges faced when building a virtual team of specialistsWhy systems and processes are so important in building your team up for successThe need for effective communication tools within your virtual teamEnsuring you have a sound onboarding and training process for new recruits Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Resources mentioned in this show:Audience OpsCasjamSlackTrelloHelp Scout  In this episode:02:28 – Who is Brian Casel?05:57 – Initial challenges with building teams09:55 – The importance of systems and processes12:14 – Do you need a VA or someone else?13:04 – Firing yourself from business processes14:48 – Business processes are constantly evolving16:50 – Brian's business processes22:30 – Challenges of bringing new people into your team25:42 – Getting the onboarding process right26:36 – How to deal with an underperforming team member27:48 – Have your team suggest ways to improve processes29:56 – Outsourcing a task that requires talent or expertise33:18 – The need for good online content35:37 – Brian's #1 tool that has streamlined his business40:20 – Wrapping things up Barbara:  Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of the Virtual Success Show, where today I'm flying solo without my co-host Matt Malouf. When we have guests on the show, which we do today, often we find it's easier to get really good guests if we can split the shows up and not have our own schedules getting in the way, so on today's show I'm really excited because I'm talking to Brian Casel, who is the founder of Audience Ops and also has a fantastic podcast called… it's called the Productize Podcast, Brian is it? Brian:  Yeah actually I have two podcasts, but yeah Productize Podcast and the other one that I co-host with Jordan Gal is called Bootstrapped Web. Barbara:  Oh fantastic, fantastic! So guys today we're going to talk all about all things content and managing team's when it comes to content and how to get content up on your site without it overwhelming you. I know one of the questions I get a lot Virtual Angel Hub is clients who have VA's through us will say, “Well how do I get a consistent stream of content?”, particularly when the VA's able to do quite a lot of work with that content but one of the challenges is trying to actually get consistency in this area. So Brian's going to talk to us all about this today and his own journey with managing teams in this area. So Brian, welcome to the show. Brian:  Well thanks Barbara. It's great to talk to you. I just love talking about this stuff, whether it's outsourcing, working with a team, collaborating, managing people, growing, yeah. Barbara:  Me too because I think one of the key things to actually growing or scaling is getting this right, cause so many people can't nail this and it will trip you up if you can't figure out how to manage a team once you start to grow, as you and I've just been talking about off air Brian. Brian:  Yep, absolutely. Barbara:  The whole challenge of it. Okay so to kick off the show, give us first a quick Audience Ops, the Productize Podcast, all about you so give us the quick what are you doing these days with your businesses. Who is Brian Casel? Brian:  Sure. Yeah I tend to like to work backwards in this story.

When Barbara Felix started her business, Felix the Cook, over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Finding her sweet spot with custom-made sugar cookies, Barbara has attracted big name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons. How can your business do the same? Listen as Barbara shares her best secrets for attracting and delighting clients. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Barbara: I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something. Dave: Meet Barbara Felix, owner of Felix the Cook. Like so many businesses owners, Barbara became her own boss to avoid a boring, cookie-cutter career. Starting a business of her own, Barbara has the freedom to spend her days as she likes — which in her case means delighting customers with custom-made sugar cookies. If you've ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business — or if you've already started and you're wondering how to take things to the next level, listen up. Today, Barbara shares her secrets for how a one-woman operation can use customer relationships to land big-name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons.More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Many small businesses start with a combination of passion and necessity. When Barbara started her business over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Listen as she describes her early attempts at finding the right fit and how an early mentor helped point her in the right direction. Barbara: Well, my dad was a cook. My dad always cooked at home. And I loved to play in the kitchen. I loved making things and my mother let me do whatever I want with butter, sugar and flour. So I have absolutely no fear of sweet stuff. And I grew up, got married, got divorced and decided I needed a career because I've been to high school, of course, but not much college. So there I was, a single mother with two children looking for something to do and I thought well, maybe I can take a cooking class and instead I decided to take the full program at the California Culinary Academy and do 16 months and come out as a chef. So I worked at a really fine restaurant for a couple years and then found it was just too difficult as a single mother to keep the hours of a kitchen, which were pretty brutal, and mind my kids. So I quit that and got into private chefing after a stint of making desserts for restaurants. There were a couple of small restaurants I worked for that didn't have the time or the space to do their own pastry. So I'd do that for them. Again, pastry was always my favorite. And with the kids, I would make cookies with them every holiday like Halloween. I can't get over it. That Halloween, I made black icing, my son was in heaven with black icing everywhere. So we'd do that and then one year one of my instructors was at the house for Christmas and she saw my cookies and she said, “Oh my God, Barbra, you have to sell these.” I said, “Really?” So because I trusted her, I pursued the cookies. I was private chefing at the time and I asked one of my clients what she thought. She suggested I get a year of cookies. So that was a great idea. So I designed 12 collections with 6 designs each to make up a dozen cookies for every month of the year, and got connected with a web designer, who started with that page, our cookies of the month. And from there it just grew. It was very word of mouth, very word of mouth. Dave: So, just talk us through kind of that inspiration for doing the cookies? Barbara: Oh! The inspiration was I can do this, and it's fun and people pay me! That's what it was. And that having someone whose opinion that I trusted told me they were wonderful. That's what I needed because I get in my own little bubble where I can't see outside. And if you go on cookies websites, it's amazing what people are doing. They're total artworks. And if you look at that, and then look at what I do and it's like, well I'd never measure up. The funny thing is, is that they're doing the same thing. Everybody is comparing, which is silly. But I wanted a way to make some money that wasn't as difficult, as private chefing can be. I wanted to do something that I was entirely comfortable with, which is pastry. And it's a fun job and it's a happy job. People are so happy when they can get on my schedule. They are happy to order their cookies they're anticipating, and they're happy when they get them. So I like happy uplifting things. That's why, I'm not curing cancer but I'm making people happy, nothing wrong with that. Dave: With cookie-making, Barbara found the sweet spot she was looking for. Now, she had to find something just as important — a loyal customer base.  Luckily, this wasn't Barbara's first business. Through her past endeavors, Barbara already had some ideas about her target market, what they wanted, and how best to reach them. Barbara: Now, I spent some time in Texas for 10 years and I had my own business there as well, making curtains and drapery and shades. And my first customer was a junior-league lady and I had learned very well. You tell a junior league lady, you're set because they all tell each other, they all call each other. So with that experience, with the cookies I thought, I got to donate to the junior league. And I did the same thing. I picked a couple different charities and I'd make a significant donation and people started calling. And that's how it started, with donations, because I had to get the word out. Dave: Did you set any goals for your business when you were first getting started? Barbara: Oh, I wish I could say yes! I wish I could say I followed my business plan to the T. I did not. My goal was to make some extra money. I'm a single mother with two kids, money was the ticket. So, with the help of friends, I thought it was important to get a website together and that was my first goal to get all those 12 months of designs made. Then to set up a photography booth or some way to get…I bought my first camera to do the photographs, my first little instant camera. And, to set up a business account, I set up a checkbook. The goals were very small and then to find charities where I could donate because I knew that's where my market was. See, I knew, from my experience of having my business in Texas, I knew what these ladies wanted. I knew what they were looking for and knew where they were. I knew my market. And I knew what they needed. And that's how I did it. Going for the upscale charity events and contacting people I knew in that area. Dave: What would you say makes your business different from others out there? Barbara: I would say the service. I mean, they love the taste of the cookies, there's that. They love the cookies, they love what I do. But I've had people tell me, “Oh, you're so flexible, and thank you” And it's personable, you know, people get excited when they can talk to the person who's actually making their product. It's not going through several layers. In fact, a few years ago, well in 2004, Gwyneth Paltrow put me on her Goop website for Christmas. And that's because I knew her driver. A friend of mine drove for her. I didn't even know he was driving for her but that was my connection. And I got a lot of orders and one person called to check on her order and it was so funny the way she spoke. It's like, “Can you go down on the factory floor and find the order?” and I said, “Ma'am I'm making your cookies.” And they're so excited. They're very excited to talk to the person. So I think that's it. There's no filter between me and the client. They call or they email or they talk to me. And that's the way I like it. And even as I grow, I don't know that I'll give away that part of the business. I think I'll still be the contact person. Dave: Barbara's success comes from giving her customers an experience they can't get anywhere else. By listening to her customers' advice, Barbara creates relationships that make other people feel invested in her success. It's no surprise that many of Barbara's best new customers have come directly from her existing customer base. Dave: Yeah. Is there, is there some place that you go for advice or guidance? Barbara: Oh gosh, yes! Gosh, yes! I guess I'm just a friendly person. But I know so many people who seem to be more successful than I am and their always eager to help me. I have one friend I met when I was doing cookies for a charity function and it was being held at Pixar. It was a very big deal and I got to see the Pixar office. I got to look at an Oscar, like two feet from my face, a real Oscar. That woman moved on to another company and another company and she's taken me with her every step of the way. So I've made cookies for her at every company and she's very into computers and marketing. And she helps me and she gives me ideas. Another friend of mine, again, it's a friend of a friend. He asked me if I could deliver cookies to his friend who manages a very big jewelry store downtown. And because of the timing, I thought, “Oh I'll just take him in myself.” And that was like a perfect thing to do. The fellow loved meeting me, he loved the cookies and he has sent me business and he has sent me a wonderful event planner that I work with constantly. And he's my buddy. He brings me to different events, he suggests things to do. He's got me working on a chocolate cookie now. He's determined to have a chocolate cookie place card with gold lettering. So I have ordered. I have been through the web top to bottom looking for a specific edible gold luster, which I've acquired. It's in the mail to me now. So they guide me, they tell me what you can do. Another friend of mine works at LinkedIn and he's helping me use that to meet other marketing people in different companies because that's where the cookie orders from companies come from. So, yes, I don't know, people like me and they talk to me and I talk to them and we chit chat. And yes, I have plenty of advisors. I've made cookies for Google Ventures and they're still customers. I did cookies for UPS. I did cookies for Tyler Florence a couple of times. And when he had his shop, my cookies were in his shop. Because one day, I walked in, and I happened to have my portfolio with me. And there was some sugar cookies for sale and I thought, “Oh my goodness! I can do better than that.” So I showed the sales girl. She got the marketing person to come down and we started a relationship and I had my cookies in there every holiday. Because I walked in and said, “Hey look at me.” Dave: Barbara's confidence in her product and dedication to her customer relationships have served her well in growing her business and reaching big-name clients. But that doesn't mean she's always as busy as she'd like. Dave: Was there ever a time that you felt like potentially the business wasn't gonna work? Barbara: Oh yeah! Oh gosh yes! Dave: Tell us about that. Barbara: Because I didn't have a budget for marketing. My budget was, “Can I pay my mortgage this month?” And some people would tell me, “Oh! You need to get better pictures. They don't do you justice.” And I didn't have the money to go up a notch. Packaging, when you start pricing packaging, you have to buy a lot for custom packaging. It's a huge investment for a small business. And there were times where I would get discouraged. And then the phone would ring and somebody would say so and so told me about you. And I would get all happy again. I really feed off my customer's happiness because it tells me I'm doing a good job. Dave: What have you found has been your most effective way to get or reaching customers? Barbara: Oh, really, Constant Contact because my email list consists of people who have already done business with me. They've already emailed me and bought purchased cookies so they're on my list. They're familiar with the product and the emails are just a reminder that I'm here, which is, as I said, for people that don't order cookies regularly. They need to be reminded, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something… Dave: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your approach with email, like what do you? What do you send out? Like what do you do, how often? Barbara: I want to do it once a month. I try to do it once a month and I like to put up pictures of cookies they haven't seen, something new. Like I believe I did an email about painted cookies now, there's a big demand now for watercolor. You use the food coloring as the paint. So I did that. Mostly it's seasonal, you know. It's like, “Oh this is August, I'll send out a picture of my watermelon cookies” or whatever. Trying to think of what they might be doing and what they might need them for. We're very seasonal. I don't ever have sales, so there's nothing like that to do. I made a decision very early on that I wasn't going to discount my work, at all. And I don't. I don't care if you're buying two dozen or two thousand. The price is the price and that's it. So, there's no sales to advertise. It's mostly a reminder. Get on the books now because September's full. So, think about me now. Mostly to remind people to, order ahead. That's what I use it for. The email marketing is entirely affordable, entirely affordable, $20 a month? I mean, come on. It's a bargain. It's a tremendous bargain. And what sold it for me is the online help because I'm of a certain age. I need to speak to someone. I don't want to just tap on the computer. And every time I call, I get someone who is willing to stay there and help me and I've never gone away unsatisfied from a phone call. And I need that because I'm not computer savvy. I am not going to invest time in learning how to run a computer because I run a cookie business. I'm not a computer person. Dave: Rather than focusing on finding new customers, Barbara stays in touch with her existing customers — the people she already has established relationships with. By reaching out and reminding her customers what she has to offer, she sparks new interest and gets the phone ringing again. Dave: What is it that you would say that really keeps you going and your business successful? Barbara: Pride in what I do, that I do it myself, that I don't have to answer to anyone except my customers. Like I've mentioned, this is not my first business. My first business was making curtains, draperies and shades and it was the similar thing. I worked alone, I made a beautiful product, everybody was happy at every stage. And I loved being my own boss. I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something, if I can't be refinishing furniture, or making a curtain or doing something creative. And the cookies give me all that. All my art, all my color, theory, everything I do is in there. And I love making people happy. I love making little kids smile when they get a cookie. I have pictures on my wall of the little kids holding my cookies, being happy. That's a nice thing. Dave: You'll notice Barbara's success is rooted in her own satisfaction, as well as her customers'. As she said earlier, she really feeds off her customers' happiness. While many small businesses are started by fiercely independent people — hungry to call the shots, make their own hours, and put their stamp on things — the successful ones never lose sight of the people they're trying to help. I'll leave you with Barbara's best advice for someone interested in starting their own business. Barbara: Oh, golly. Know your market. If you don't know where your market is and what they want, you have no chance. You need to know what people want. And once you figure that out, make what they need. It's the same classic advice, find a need and fill it. And because of my exposure to a certain crowd of people years ago, I knew what they were looking for. I knew what they liked to have and that's why I can still serve those people by making my product. You have to know your market, you can't just have a good idea that nobody wants to buy, if you're gonna do it for a living. I mean believe me, I love what I do, I love the art but make no mistake, and this is how I put gas in the car. I have to make money. Dave: We appreciate you listening and would love to hear what you think of the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher right now and leave us a review. Small Biz Stories is produced by myself and Miranda Paquet with editing by TwentyFourSound. You can contact us at podcast@constantcontact.com Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. The post Felix the Cook — Small Biz Stories, Episode 14 appeared first on Constant Contact.

When Barbara Felix started her business, Felix the Cook, over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Finding her sweet spot with custom-made sugar cookies, Barbara has attracted big name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons. How can your business do the same? Listen as Barbara shares her best secrets for attracting and delighting clients. Find us on Stitcher You can also read the transcript below: Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. Barbara: I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something. Dave: Meet Barbara Felix, owner of Felix the Cook. Like so many businesses owners, Barbara became her own boss to avoid a boring, cookie-cutter career. Starting a business of her own, Barbara has the freedom to spend her days as she likes — which in her case means delighting customers with custom-made sugar cookies. If you've ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business — or if you've already started and you're wondering how to take things to the next level, listen up. Today, Barbara shares her secrets for how a one-woman operation can use customer relationships to land big-name clients like Google Ventures, UPS, and The Four Seasons.More than fifty percent of small businesses fail within the first five years. These are the stories of those who beat the odds. My name is Dave Charest and I'll be your host as we share the stories of some of the bravest people you'll ever meet, small business owners. You'll hear how they got started, their biggest challenges, and their dreams for the future. Dave: Many small businesses start with a combination of passion and necessity. When Barbara started her business over ten years ago, she was looking for a way to provide for her family, while doing something she loved. Listen as she describes her early attempts at finding the right fit and how an early mentor helped point her in the right direction. Barbara: Well, my dad was a cook. My dad always cooked at home. And I loved to play in the kitchen. I loved making things and my mother let me do whatever I want with butter, sugar and flour. So I have absolutely no fear of sweet stuff. And I grew up, got married, got divorced and decided I needed a career because I've been to high school, of course, but not much college. So there I was, a single mother with two children looking for something to do and I thought well, maybe I can take a cooking class and instead I decided to take the full program at the California Culinary Academy and do 16 months and come out as a chef. So I worked at a really fine restaurant for a couple years and then found it was just too difficult as a single mother to keep the hours of a kitchen, which were pretty brutal, and mind my kids. So I quit that and got into private chefing after a stint of making desserts for restaurants. There were a couple of small restaurants I worked for that didn't have the time or the space to do their own pastry. So I'd do that for them. Again, pastry was always my favorite. And with the kids, I would make cookies with them every holiday like Halloween. I can't get over it. That Halloween, I made black icing, my son was in heaven with black icing everywhere. So we'd do that and then one year one of my instructors was at the house for Christmas and she saw my cookies and she said, “Oh my God, Barbra, you have to sell these.” I said, “Really?” So because I trusted her, I pursued the cookies. I was private chefing at the time and I asked one of my clients what she thought. She suggested I get a year of cookies. So that was a great idea. So I designed 12 collections with 6 designs each to make up a dozen cookies for every month of the year, and got connected with a web designer, who started with that page, our cookies of the month. And from there it just grew. It was very word of mouth, very word of mouth. Dave: So, just talk us through kind of that inspiration for doing the cookies? Barbara: Oh! The inspiration was I can do this, and it's fun and people pay me! That's what it was. And that having someone whose opinion that I trusted told me they were wonderful. That's what I needed because I get in my own little bubble where I can't see outside. And if you go on cookies websites, it's amazing what people are doing. They're total artworks. And if you look at that, and then look at what I do and it's like, well I'd never measure up. The funny thing is, is that they're doing the same thing. Everybody is comparing, which is silly. But I wanted a way to make some money that wasn't as difficult, as private chefing can be. I wanted to do something that I was entirely comfortable with, which is pastry. And it's a fun job and it's a happy job. People are so happy when they can get on my schedule. They are happy to order their cookies they're anticipating, and they're happy when they get them. So I like happy uplifting things. That's why, I'm not curing cancer but I'm making people happy, nothing wrong with that. Dave: With cookie-making, Barbara found the sweet spot she was looking for. Now, she had to find something just as important — a loyal customer base.  Luckily, this wasn't Barbara's first business. Through her past endeavors, Barbara already had some ideas about her target market, what they wanted, and how best to reach them. Barbara: Now, I spent some time in Texas for 10 years and I had my own business there as well, making curtains and drapery and shades. And my first customer was a junior-league lady and I had learned very well. You tell a junior league lady, you're set because they all tell each other, they all call each other. So with that experience, with the cookies I thought, I got to donate to the junior league. And I did the same thing. I picked a couple different charities and I'd make a significant donation and people started calling. And that's how it started, with donations, because I had to get the word out. Dave: Did you set any goals for your business when you were first getting started? Barbara: Oh, I wish I could say yes! I wish I could say I followed my business plan to the T. I did not. My goal was to make some extra money. I'm a single mother with two kids, money was the ticket. So, with the help of friends, I thought it was important to get a website together and that was my first goal to get all those 12 months of designs made. Then to set up a photography booth or some way to get…I bought my first camera to do the photographs, my first little instant camera. And, to set up a business account, I set up a checkbook. The goals were very small and then to find charities where I could donate because I knew that's where my market was. See, I knew, from my experience of having my business in Texas, I knew what these ladies wanted. I knew what they were looking for and knew where they were. I knew my market. And I knew what they needed. And that's how I did it. Going for the upscale charity events and contacting people I knew in that area. Dave: What would you say makes your business different from others out there? Barbara: I would say the service. I mean, they love the taste of the cookies, there's that. They love the cookies, they love what I do. But I've had people tell me, “Oh, you're so flexible, and thank you” And it's personable, you know, people get excited when they can talk to the person who's actually making their product. It's not going through several layers. In fact, a few years ago, well in 2004, Gwyneth Paltrow put me on her Goop website for Christmas. And that's because I knew her driver. A friend of mine drove for her. I didn't even know he was driving for her but that was my connection. And I got a lot of orders and one person called to check on her order and it was so funny the way she spoke. It's like, “Can you go down on the factory floor and find the order?” and I said, “Ma'am I'm making your cookies.” And they're so excited. They're very excited to talk to the person. So I think that's it. There's no filter between me and the client. They call or they email or they talk to me. And that's the way I like it. And even as I grow, I don't know that I'll give away that part of the business. I think I'll still be the contact person. Dave: Barbara's success comes from giving her customers an experience they can't get anywhere else. By listening to her customers' advice, Barbara creates relationships that make other people feel invested in her success. It's no surprise that many of Barbara's best new customers have come directly from her existing customer base. Dave: Yeah. Is there, is there some place that you go for advice or guidance? Barbara: Oh gosh, yes! Gosh, yes! I guess I'm just a friendly person. But I know so many people who seem to be more successful than I am and their always eager to help me. I have one friend I met when I was doing cookies for a charity function and it was being held at Pixar. It was a very big deal and I got to see the Pixar office. I got to look at an Oscar, like two feet from my face, a real Oscar. That woman moved on to another company and another company and she's taken me with her every step of the way. So I've made cookies for her at every company and she's very into computers and marketing. And she helps me and she gives me ideas. Another friend of mine, again, it's a friend of a friend. He asked me if I could deliver cookies to his friend who manages a very big jewelry store downtown. And because of the timing, I thought, “Oh I'll just take him in myself.” And that was like a perfect thing to do. The fellow loved meeting me, he loved the cookies and he has sent me business and he has sent me a wonderful event planner that I work with constantly. And he's my buddy. He brings me to different events, he suggests things to do. He's got me working on a chocolate cookie now. He's determined to have a chocolate cookie place card with gold lettering. So I have ordered. I have been through the web top to bottom looking for a specific edible gold luster, which I've acquired. It's in the mail to me now. So they guide me, they tell me what you can do. Another friend of mine works at LinkedIn and he's helping me use that to meet other marketing people in different companies because that's where the cookie orders from companies come from. So, yes, I don't know, people like me and they talk to me and I talk to them and we chit chat. And yes, I have plenty of advisors. I've made cookies for Google Ventures and they're still customers. I did cookies for UPS. I did cookies for Tyler Florence a couple of times. And when he had his shop, my cookies were in his shop. Because one day, I walked in, and I happened to have my portfolio with me. And there was some sugar cookies for sale and I thought, “Oh my goodness! I can do better than that.” So I showed the sales girl. She got the marketing person to come down and we started a relationship and I had my cookies in there every holiday. Because I walked in and said, “Hey look at me.” Dave: Barbara's confidence in her product and dedication to her customer relationships have served her well in growing her business and reaching big-name clients. But that doesn't mean she's always as busy as she'd like. Dave: Was there ever a time that you felt like potentially the business wasn't gonna work? Barbara: Oh yeah! Oh gosh yes! Dave: Tell us about that. Barbara: Because I didn't have a budget for marketing. My budget was, “Can I pay my mortgage this month?” And some people would tell me, “Oh! You need to get better pictures. They don't do you justice.” And I didn't have the money to go up a notch. Packaging, when you start pricing packaging, you have to buy a lot for custom packaging. It's a huge investment for a small business. And there were times where I would get discouraged. And then the phone would ring and somebody would say so and so told me about you. And I would get all happy again. I really feed off my customer's happiness because it tells me I'm doing a good job. Dave: What have you found has been your most effective way to get or reaching customers? Barbara: Oh, really, Constant Contact because my email list consists of people who have already done business with me. They've already emailed me and bought purchased cookies so they're on my list. They're familiar with the product and the emails are just a reminder that I'm here, which is, as I said, for people that don't order cookies regularly. They need to be reminded, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something… Dave: Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your approach with email, like what do you? What do you send out? Like what do you do, how often? Barbara: I want to do it once a month. I try to do it once a month and I like to put up pictures of cookies they haven't seen, something new. Like I believe I did an email about painted cookies now, there's a big demand now for watercolor. You use the food coloring as the paint. So I did that. Mostly it's seasonal, you know. It's like, “Oh this is August, I'll send out a picture of my watermelon cookies” or whatever. Trying to think of what they might be doing and what they might need them for. We're very seasonal. I don't ever have sales, so there's nothing like that to do. I made a decision very early on that I wasn't going to discount my work, at all. And I don't. I don't care if you're buying two dozen or two thousand. The price is the price and that's it. So, there's no sales to advertise. It's mostly a reminder. Get on the books now because September's full. So, think about me now. Mostly to remind people to, order ahead. That's what I use it for. The email marketing is entirely affordable, entirely affordable, $20 a month? I mean, come on. It's a bargain. It's a tremendous bargain. And what sold it for me is the online help because I'm of a certain age. I need to speak to someone. I don't want to just tap on the computer. And every time I call, I get someone who is willing to stay there and help me and I've never gone away unsatisfied from a phone call. And I need that because I'm not computer savvy. I am not going to invest time in learning how to run a computer because I run a cookie business. I'm not a computer person. Dave: Rather than focusing on finding new customers, Barbara stays in touch with her existing customers — the people she already has established relationships with. By reaching out and reminding her customers what she has to offer, she sparks new interest and gets the phone ringing again. Dave: What is it that you would say that really keeps you going and your business successful? Barbara: Pride in what I do, that I do it myself, that I don't have to answer to anyone except my customers. Like I've mentioned, this is not my first business. My first business was making curtains, draperies and shades and it was the similar thing. I worked alone, I made a beautiful product, everybody was happy at every stage. And I loved being my own boss. I've spent plenty of time working in offices thinking, “How can I get out of here?” I am not a paper person. I don't care what industry it's in, I cannot stand sitting behind a desk. So with cookies, I just love being the boss and being the creative person. I get physically ill if I cannot create something, if I can't be refinishing furniture, or making a curtain or doing something creative. And the cookies give me all that. All my art, all my color, theory, everything I do is in there. And I love making people happy. I love making little kids smile when they get a cookie. I have pictures on my wall of the little kids holding my cookies, being happy. That's a nice thing. Dave: You'll notice Barbara's success is rooted in her own satisfaction, as well as her customers'. As she said earlier, she really feeds off her customers' happiness. While many small businesses are started by fiercely independent people — hungry to call the shots, make their own hours, and put their stamp on things — the successful ones never lose sight of the people they're trying to help. I'll leave you with Barbara's best advice for someone interested in starting their own business. Barbara: Oh, golly. Know your market. If you don't know where your market is and what they want, you have no chance. You need to know what people want. And once you figure that out, make what they need. It's the same classic advice, find a need and fill it. And because of my exposure to a certain crowd of people years ago, I knew what they were looking for. I knew what they liked to have and that's why I can still serve those people by making my product. You have to know your market, you can't just have a good idea that nobody wants to buy, if you're gonna do it for a living. I mean believe me, I love what I do, I love the art but make no mistake, and this is how I put gas in the car. I have to make money. Dave: We appreciate you listening and would love to hear what you think of the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher right now and leave us a review. Small Biz Stories is produced by myself and Miranda Paquet with editing by TwentyFourSound. You can contact us at podcast@constantcontact.com Small Biz Stories is brought to you by Constant Contact. Constant Contact is committed to helping small businesses and nonprofits connect to new and existing customers with email marketing. You can be a marketer, all it takes is Constant Contact. Find out more at ConstantContact.com. The post Felix the Cook — Small Biz Stories, Episode 14 appeared first on Constant Contact.

How Nathan Chan Used Virtual Teams to Smash Foundr Magazine Out of the Park Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest Nathan Chan, who has had the pleasure of speaking with some of the world's leading and aspiring entrepreneurs, shares his experiences in building and using virtual teams to take Foundr Magazine to the next level.     This episode is full of insights and tips from Nathan on how he has built virtual teams to allow himself to focus on what he really enjoys doing in his business. Some of the areas covered include: What to keep in mind when building a virtual team The importance of delegating effectively How to fine tune your processes and why this is so important Effective communication with your team The need for a team or project leader Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode: 02:06 – How Foundr Magazine came to life 06:00 – What to keep in mind when building a virtual team 06:40 – How to delegate 07:28 – SOP – Standard Operating Procedure 08:03 – Tracking your time 09:08 – Be specific in your instructions 10:12 – Creating your list 11:54 – Creating videos for each task 16:35 – Building a virtual team 20:02 – Communication with your team 22:54 – There needs to be a leader of the project 24:22 – Wrapping things up Barbara:  Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Virtual Success. I'm your host, Barbara Turley today, and I'm not joined today by my co-host Matt Malouf who's normally on the show with me, but given I've just had a baby and Matt has taken on a whole raft of new clients and businesses, and as business goes, schedules are very hard to line up, so I'm doing the show solo today. I'm quite excited because somebody that I have been following online for quite a long time is Nathan Chan, who is the founder of Foundr Magazine, an absolute, amazing magazine for entrepreneur, with a huge Instagram following, and actually where I found Nathan was on Instagram. I'm very excited today to have Nathan on the show to talk about how he's using virtual teams in his business and has been using them to really scale a fantastic platform, both digitally and internally as well. Nathan, welcome to the show. Nathan:  Thank you so much for having me, Barbara. I also just realized, we have a mutual friend, Yaro Starak. Barbara:  Oh, Yaro. We'll have to get Yaro on the show actually. Yes, Yaro and I are really good friends, yes. It's a small world in digital land. Nathan:  Yeah, it is. He's a great guy. Barbara:  He is, indeed. He is, indeed. Nathan,  I found you probably, I think it was in the early days of when Foundr Magazine kind of first launched, and I did find you on Instagram because you had, you do have an amazing Instagram strategy and it's something I know that you talk a lot about. Can you tell me a little bit first, just let's start off with your sort of entrepreneurial journey, the quick two minutes on your background and how did Foundr Magazine come about? How Foundr Magazine came to life Nathan:  Yeah, sure thing. I started it March 2013 while I was working my day job just as a side hustle, passion project. I never thought it would be this big media start-up or any platform or anything of the sorts. Barbara:  Did you just, I love that, so you just started as a sort of a hobby sort of thing and had no plan for this big platform that it's become. Nathan:  No, not at all. Barbara:  Wow. Nathan:  I launched it while I was working my day job. I was looking for a job in marketing. I even took the first issue of the magazine from my iPad to some job interviews, but no one would hire me. Barbara:  I see. That was a stroke of luck, in hindsight. Nathan:  Yeah. Long story short, I just, I started this magazine. I identified that there wasn't really a publication in this space that spoke to aspiring and novice entrepreneurs and ...

How Matthew Barby, Global Head of Growth & SEO at HubSpot, Is Leveraging Specialist Virtual Teams To Drive Business Growth And Ultimately, Business Success Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest Matthew Barby, an award winning blogger, industry speaker, and lecturer, shares his experiences in creating and working with specialist virtual teams and how when you commit to making it work, can lead to exponential growth and success for your business.   Many entrepreneurs fall into the trap of ‘trying to do it all'.   When used effectively, virtual teams can be very powerful; and Matthew knows this all too well. This episode is full of tips and insights from Matthew on how to approach the task of building specialist virtual teams to perform tasks within your business and how to leverage these teams to their greatest potential. Some of the areas he covers are: Why having teams of specialists allows you to focus on things you love doing The importance of a having stringent screening process for team members Making sure you commit the time upfront to training team members so as to build rapport with them Understanding the value of Virtual Teams to your business His top three tips for anyone starting out with virtual teams   Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode: 02:48 – Trying to do far too much?! 04:20 – The challenges 05:51 – Cheapest isn't always best 07:58 – Commit to making it work 08:42 – Building teams of highly specialized people 11:28 – Prove the process can work for one small task 12:33 – Replicate the process 13:54 – Don't rush through training up team members 15:45 – Complementary skill sets within the team 17:55 – Document your processes 19:58 – How can specialist team members add value? 24:09 – Growing the team 26:28 – Refining the process 28:46 – Spend the time to find the right people 29:31 – Project-based roles vs. Retainer-based roles 32:04 – Key selection criteria 32:27 – Nice-to-haves 33:19 – Absolute deal-breakers 34:03 – Trying to find your ‘silver bullet' 36:09 – Understanding the value of virtual teams 41:06 – Matthew's three top tips when starting out 41:27 – One – Start off small 42:08 – Two – Strong selection criteria 42:49 – Three – “Treat people like people” 43:48 – Wrapping things up Barbara: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Virtual Success Show podcast. The show where we give you the inside tips on outsourcing success for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. As always I'm joined by my fantastic co-host Matt Malouf. Matt, how are you? Matt:   I'm well, how are you? Barbara: I'm really good. Long week, good week, as always. Matt: Excellent. Oh, that's good. That's good. Hey, tell me something interesting that's happened to you this week. Barbara: This week. Big lesson this week for me was refining processes, and I know we talk about this a lot on the show, but I've discovered that, you know, even when you have a great process you can still refine it, evolve it as little problems happen along the way. So I've been doing a lot of that this week. Big thing for me. How about you? What's been happening? Matt: I've got a little bit of a left-field, quick story to share. I was at home this evening before we're coming in to do this recording and my eight year old son says to me, “Daddy what are you doing tonight?” And I said, “I will be doing the podcast and recording.” He goes, “Daddy, is that the one where you teach people how to get other people to do work for you?” And I said, “Yes.” He said, “Can they do my homework?” Barbara: Oh, he's clever. (laughing) Tell him, “He doesn't need homework, he's clever.” Matt: And he said to me, “I've got the money to pay them as well.” So I was just blown away. Barbara: He's clever and savvy. Matt: Eight year old ready to leverage homework. I'm just like,

Why a Recurring Task list is the Ultimate Gamechanger with Virtual Teams Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, we dive into the nuts and bolts of the ‘recurring task list' concept and why it is such a game changer for those that want to achieve entrepreneurial freedom using virtual teams. This episode is jam packed full of actionable tips and tricks from Barbara on exactly why and how to build a rock solid recurring task list for your business …. So you can do more of the things you love. Why the recurring task list is THE ultimate game changer if you want to achieve entrepreneurial freedom Why keeping it simple and basic is the key to getting started with a rock solid recurring task list. Why delegating correctly actually gives you control rather than taking it away. How the belief that you can do it faster is the thing that's keeping you stuck in business. How to run multiple businesses and look super-human while doing very little yourself. Why this strategy will bring you more enjoyment, fulfillment and success in business. Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Today's Gift for listeners: Get ‘The Ultimate What to Outsource Guide' In this episode: 01:36 – Keeping it simple – The recurring task list 06:46 – Delegating correctly 08:15 – “…but I can do it faster myself” 10:00 – You can be superhuman 15:11 – Gain more enjoyment, fulfillment and success in business 18:23 – The ultimate ‘What to outsource' guide 19:24 – Wrapping things up Barbara: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Virtual Success where I am joined with my fantastic co-host, Matt Malouf Barbara: Matt how is it going? Matt: Well, how about yourself? Barbara: Fantastic, great this week. We've been punching out some amazing episodes this week and I have learnt so much myself, to be honest, from some of the people we've been interviewing and from you and the insights that we are sharing. Matt: It's always amazing! I love this time we spend together because even though we're sharing our own insights on what we've already learned, I find we learn so much along the way as well. It's a lot of fun, isn't it?! Barbara: Oh yeah, some of the insights that I have personally gained from some of the guests on the show and from you, have actually been shaping the business I am growing which is Virtual Angel Hub. You know, it's really helped me a lot. So I can only imagine how much it's helping those out there who are listening and maybe have just started with their first VA, you know just trying to get insights from people who've done it before. It's a constantly evolving thing. Matt: Absolutely, and lots of fun too. Keeping it simple – The recurring task list Barbara: Yes, I am excited about today's show because we are going to be talking about something that is very close to my heart and that I have spent a lot of time teaching our clients how to do. It's a concept called the ‘recurring task list'. It is something that is so pivotal that I feel, to get success with your virtual teams, it is something that I focus on a lot. It just alleviates a lot of the stress and pressure. The problem is though, that it is onerous to set up in the beginning and a lot of people avoid it. And when they avoid it, unfortunately, they can fall into massive holes later. So I always encourage people to really focus on this recurring task list as much as possible in the beginning, so you can have the freedom of using virtual teams later. Matt: So, I agree with you. I think this is probably one of the most critical areas for success with your virtual teams. So Barb, let's start with how did this evolve for you personally and then how it evolved with your clients. Barbara: Yes, that is a great question actually Matt, because I didn't wake up in the morning and decide, wow this is a great way to do it.

Barbara: Hi Liz, sorry to bother you. I know you're busy studying, I just wanted to double-check(1) the time that we're going to the basketball game. Liz: Uh, let's leave at about six thirty. It starts at seven thirty, but it'll be packed, so we'll need time to park and find seats. Barbara: Ok. Oh, I love what you've done(2) with the Christmas cards! Liz: Thanks. I like to arrange them on the wall and save them for at least a month. Look, I got several from my friends in York. This one is made from photos. See how snowy it is? And those are my three friends: Suzy, Jeff, and Peter. They took a selfie next to the(3) statue of Emperor Constantine. They look so goofy! Barbara: Oh that's great! That is definitely worth keeping! Click the link for the Android app