Podcast appearances and mentions of barbara yes

What you'll learn in this episode:   How the artists represented by BABS translate their artistic vision to jewelry Why showing art and jewelry outside of the traditional gallery setting can make it less intimidating for non-collectors Why artist jewelry has yet to catch on with Italian consumers, and how Barbara hopes the industry evolves Why Barbara thinks there should be no division between art and art jewelry, and how she is trying to solve this issue What Barbara looks for in the pieces she selects for her gallery   About Barbara Lo Bianco Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists' jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Website: www.babsartgallery.it Artists Page: https://www.babsartgallery.it/maestri-gioiello-milano/ Barbara's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lo-bianco-a1330a/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babsartgallery/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/babsartgallery.gioiellidartista/ Twitter: @BabsGallery   Transcript   Barbara Lo Bianco's mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she's trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    We've had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor. Welcome back.   I look at art. I give a cursory glance at the art that might not be at a gallery, let's say, but at a jewelry store. It's decoration, but it's not to sell.   Barbara: You see a lot of restaurants in Milan that exhibit artworks by artists that are just there for the exhibition, so I think Italians are more acquainted with it. They do see it, and they might even ask questions because it's another environment. They're talking to somebody that is not doing that for business. They knew I was not going to sell to them. I was just saying, “You like it? Look, this is the business card of the artist. Just call him.” They feel free to ask him questions about it.   Sharon: That is different. It's different from the experience I've had here. How do you divide historical contemporary from contemporary? I was surprised to see on your website what I would consider contemporary, but they were maybe historical. You had some Dalí. I can't remember exactly.   Barbara: Yeah, we have Dalí. You cannot say it's contemporary. He's dead, so I cannot work with him anymore, unfortunately. He was last century. He's modern; he's not contemporary. There is this small distinction between modern and contemporary. There are some artists that are modern and others that are contemporary. Contemporaries are the ones that are living now and the ones that are working still. Those who are no longer working cannot be called contemporary. They are modern, yes, but they're not contemporary.    Then there are some that are contemporary, but they're already established. Some others are emergent or mid-career. What I'm focusing on now is mid-career, moving a little bit towards established. I'm between that field. I don't do emerging, and I don't do contemporary jewels. I do contemporary art, yes.    Sharon: It seems like a tremendous incentive. They show their art and a jewel or two they have made for you, and they talk with people who are aficionados.    Barbara: Yes, what is nice is that when we finish the project with the artist, we do an exhibition. I do exhibit works the artist is usually known for so you can recognize his style; you can recognize his message alongside the jewels he or she created. You can see the starting point or the inspiration point and the actual work they did, the new project, which is not often just a small reduction. It is something else, but you can still recognize the style and the message of the artist.    They do come to the exhibition, of course; they do speak with the people, but during the period of the exhibition, I always try to organize another talk or some sort of small event by appointment. There are 20, 40 people at most, so they get a chance to talk with the artist and ask them questions if they want—even if, most of the time, artists like to have their works speak for them. They are not so keen on speaking, especially in a larger group. In a small group, it works better.   Sharon: Do people see the connection?   Barbara: Yes, once they see them outside, they do. You do understand it. If you see the work by itself, it probably is not that easy, but if you see the works alongside the jewels, you do see the same end, the same meaning. It is like a speech that works within different media.   Sharon: Would you give us an example where you saw the connection?   Barbara: For example, there is an artist we work with. She made a sculpture which is about two meters high. It was treated as if it were a mirror in a bronze cage in front that looked like a medieval prison. So, you walk in front of this sculpture and suddenly you see yourself within a prison. You should start asking yourself, “Am I free or not? Why do I see myself within a cage?”   The piece of work is called The Golden Cage, because even if we are free, we are actually closed in a golden cage, more or less, because of all the limitations we give ourselves, because of all the routine, because of all the relations we have, because of all the boundaries we give ourselves, because of where our family or our business or our everyday life leads us. We wanted to give the same idea within a jewel.    It was quite hard because of the sizes. You cannot reflect yourself entirely within a cage. We tried and it came out very nice, but then we had an idea, “O.K., why don't we put something precious in it?” We started putting in a precious stone, and that gave the message. The stone doesn't get any light from anywhere, so it doesn't follow the rules of jewelry where you have to give light to stone; you have to embellish it; you have to make it shiny; you have to show that it's worth it. In this case, we put this stone within a cage, and it doesn't get any light from anywhere. You can see it because it's huge. The message is no matter how beautiful you are, you can never shine if you are within a cage. So, you get the same feeling; you get the same taste of the poetry of the artist, but in a different way.   Sharon: Do the artists you exhibit have favorite stones that they work with more than others?   Barbara: It depends. Some of them don't want to work with any type of stone. Some work with stone. It depends. They are totally free. Another one is Alex Pinna. His bigger sculptures are usually made in big rope, like the ones for boats and other ships. We made the jewels with ebony, gold, silver, even rope. They give exactly the same feeling of his sculptures but made in a different way and with different shapes. He makes mixed sculptures. He's a little bit individual. He makes these very thin human beings, but not in detail, that are sort of waiting for something that will happen or just happened; you don't know. He captured exactly the same sense of being suspended in his sculptures and in his jewels.    Sharon: Do you tell the artist what you're looking for? Do you tell them, “I want bracelets”?   Barbara: No.   Sharon: You don't tell them. They have free reign.    Barbara: I tell them, “Don't try to do what is easy; try to do what you think would be good, and leave it to me and the goldsmith to try to figure out the way to realize it. Don't go for the easy thing.” The medallion would be the easiest way, but it's banal; it's something that has been seen tons of times. I think that in some way, art has to go beyond, has to go a little bit further. That's what I tell them.   Sharon: It's in your name, Beyond Sculpture.   Barbara: Yeah, that's right.   Sharon: When I hear the word unique, it means I won't see anything like it. Is that different at your gallery?   Barbara: No, that's right. We work with unique pieces, unique within a series, or we work with very small editions. That means if it is unique, it is just one piece and that's it. No way are we ever going to have another one again. If it is unique within a series—for example, we worked with one artist that made 13 rings which were all similar, but all very different. They are unique within a series. The series is of those 13 rings, but they are all different from one another. They differ in color. They differ in material. They are different in treatment. They are different because one might be made with enamel; the other might be without. It depends.    Otherwise, it can be a small series. We usually work with eight pieces because in the sculpture world it can still be defined as unique, but we do declare that it is one out of eight or two out of eight. In some cases, we talk with the artist, especially if they want to make the price a little bit lower. We might be working with a series of 20 or 30. In three cases, we did something for charity, so we worked in a series of 99.   Sharon: Do your artists care if it's a unique piece? Is it important to them that they have a small series of 12 or eight?   Barbara: Some of them do want to keep it unique or in a very small series because that's how they work with their art. Some others don't mind. For example, Emilio Isgrò, who is one of the most accredited artists in Italy now, didn't mind working with the larger series. So, we worked with 30 pieces. He doesn't really mind. If it helps spread it and makes it something people would wear more, let's do it. It depends.   Sharon: Do your clients come from all over Europe or from Italy?   Barbara: We have clients from Japan, from the U.S., from Canada, from the U.K., Belgium. We do work everywhere because with the technologies now, that's a little bit easier. With some clients, they ask us to ship it. We wear it and do some videos to show how the ring looks or how the necklace looks, and then we ship it. We are doing some fairs. Last year we did Basel, the design fair. We had great contacts and clients from all over the world. It depends.   Sharon: You did Design Basel?   Barbara: Sorry if I interrupted you. Actually, I might say that more clients are foreigners than Italians. The Italians are still a little bit more toward traditional jewels.   Sharon: I'm surprised to hear that.    Barbara: Yes, there's still not too much of a culture for artist jewelry.   Sharon: Do you see that changing?   Barbara: There's a little bit more interest, but it's still quite hard because in Italy there's the tradition. Jewelry is often a present, and jewels by artists is something you buy for yourself because it's a liaison between you and the artist and the piece of art. Usually if somebody gives it to you, it's because they know you very well; they know you like that artist. Otherwise, no. It is a little bit harder that way. Italian women especially don't buy too many jewels by themselves.   Sharon: So, most of the jewelry you're seeing is run of the mill, the kind you'd give as a gift. It's not what you carry.   Barbara: Yeah.   Sharon: O.K.   Barbara: What were you asking before?   Sharon: I was just going to ask what your dream would be for the business, what the next step is.   Barbara: The next step is to keep working with major artists. The thing I would really like is to make it easier to exhibit at fairs. Last year, as I was telling you, we exhibited at Basel, but we were in the bazaar in the pavilion, because the business was considered an applied art, which I don't think is fair. It is art. It is just a small size that can be worn. The same artists that were exhibiting their jewelry, they were in the art pavilion with other works of art. Why can't they stay together? That's one thing.    Another thing is that they often tell me, “No, you have to exhibit either the piece of art or the jewelry,” and I don't see why. Art should have no limits. If it is an art exhibit, it is art. That's something I'm really trying to make the curator of the fairs understand, but it's hard.   Sharon: That sounds like a big hurdle, a big one to get over and get past.   Barbara: Yeah, I don't see why. We had pieces from artists and their other artwork was on the other side. We had Gilardi, and Gilardi was on the other side. Why can't they be in the same space, in the same location? Applied art doesn't mean it's less valuable than normal art.   Sharon: That's interesting. It's been about four years since the first time we talked to you. I hope by the next time, you will have resolved a lot of these issues.   Barbara: Thank you. I'll try.    Sharon: Thank you very much.   Barbara: I'll keep trying. Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure to see you again.   Sharon: It's nice to see you. Thank you. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How the artists represented by BABS translate their artistic vision to jewelry Why showing art and jewelry outside of the traditional gallery setting can make it less intimidating for non-collectors Why artist jewelry has yet to catch on with Italian consumers, and how Barbara hopes the industry evolves Why Barbara thinks there should be no division between art and art jewelry, and how she is trying to solve this issue What Barbara looks for in the pieces she selects for her gallery   About Barbara Lo Bianco Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists' jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Website: www.babsartgallery.it Artists Page: https://www.babsartgallery.it/maestri-gioiello-milano/ Barbara's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lo-bianco-a1330a/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babsartgallery/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/babsartgallery.gioiellidartista/ Twitter: @BabsGallery   Transcript   Barbara Lo Bianco's mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she's trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    We've had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor, but her passion has always been in art and jewelry. BABS stands for Beyond Art Before Sculpture. She opened a gallery which showcases artists she knew. They were doing sculpture, but she convinced them to do jewelry. They didn't know their creativity was also in this area until she gave them the space and encouragement to do it. We'll hear all about her art gallery today.   Barbara: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me again.   Sharon: I'm so glad that we connected. Why did you decide to locate in Milan?   Barbara: It's very normal. It's just that I live here. It's the easiest thing. Milan has a long tradition in artist jewelry. Actually, artist jewelry in Italy started in Rome right after World War II, when some of the sculptors were commissioned to do unique pieces in order to recreate an interest in our jewelry, which was not something necessary right after the war, when everything had to be reconstructed again. So, you had to make jewelry that was a little bit different.   Then, in the 60s, it moved to Milan. In Milan, there was GEM by Montebello, who has been the biggest and most famous editor of jewelry by artists in Italy. They worked with more than 50 artists and created more than 200 jewelry pieces. So, there is a tradition, but there had never been a gallery doing that. So, I was in Milan. Why not? Actually, I'm still the only gallery in Italy.   Sharon: In Italy?   Barbara: Yes.   Sharon: I'm thinking about Thereza Pedrosa. She gathers pieces she likes, not pieces that have been commissioned for the gallery.   Barbara: Yeah, this is a little bit different. We don't focus on contemporary; we focus on jewels made by artists, visual artists, painters, sculptors, photographers. We ask them to do a piece of jewelry. We also exhibit some historical pieces, but it's not our major business.   Sharon: I was wondering if you live in Milan. I don't know that much about Italy, but I've heard Milan is the fashion capital.   Barbara: It is. It's so busy.   Sharon: Did you have a reason to start there?   Barbara: It's the most motivational and vibrant city in Italy. It is very European, although in size, it's quite nice. It still has a local atmosphere although it's quite international. The other cities in Italy are more for tourists. This is one is more a business city, and it's more where you do things. It's the most business city we have, but it's nice.   Sharon: I've heard it's an up-and-coming city. It was industrial and now it's really changed.   Barbara: Yes, in the 70s, it used to be a little bit more industrial. Now, it's mainly services.   Sharon: Was that one reason you decided to open in Milan, besides the fact that you lived in Milan? Did you consider other places?   Barbara: No, honestly, I did not. I think it is quite a good location because a lot of the expertise, especially for goldsmiths, is in this area anyway. I would have had to work mostly from here. Plus, it is quite convenient if you do road shows or if you want to do exhibitions. It's very logistically easy. There are some cities in Italy which might be a little bit more artistic, like Florence or Venice or Rome, but I still think working in Milan would be the best place.   Sharon: Did you consider other artists you didn't know, or artists that were in other parts of Italy?   Barbara: Oh, yes. We do work with them. I started with just a few whom I knew. I had been buying their work because I am an art enthusiast. I did buy some pieces of artists I liked. That was just the beginning, but I'm still working and starting to get work from other artists, not only Italians, but also foreigners.    Sharon: Did you find it difficult to start because they didn't know who you were?    Barbara: Yes. I have to say yes, because at the beginning I was totally new and a very young gallery. It was the only gallery doing this in Italy, so it was quite strange to approach an artist and ask, “Excuse me, would you like to do this?” Second, it was because I don't come from the art world. I've not been in the system. My husband is not a collector. He's not a gallerist nor is my family. We've always been very enthusiastic about it, but we're not related to anyone and haven't worked with museums or galleries. So, connections were not that easy at the beginning.    I'm usually a little bit humble, but this time I have to say it because I've been having a lot of appreciation lately. I'm working a lot and trying to work well and consistently, so people are now approaching me, and once I approach them, they're willing to work with me. So, it's getting easier.    Sharon: What did you do during Covid, when nobody would talk to anybody?   Barbara: Well, we needed to work. We worked at trying to build up an archive. We were organizing, taking pictures and trying to exploit social media and what technology gave us. We were quite a young gallery because we opened in the autumn of 2018. After a year and a half, we were already closed for the pandemic, but that gave us some time to slow down a little bit. We had been doing exhibitions every two months, which was a lot. So, we had time to slow down and reorganize the archive, reorganize the website, reorganize the Instagram, and try to understand how all those types of media work, because I had never been using them. I didn't need them in my previous business. So, there was everything to learn.   Sharon: Is this what you focus on mainly, besides the gems? Have you given up the gems? Have you given up the real estate investing? Is this your main business?   Barbara: No, this is my main business. I gave up fitness. I'm still doing real estate and financial investments because that's a family company. I work for them, but that doesn't take too much time. I have to say that the gallery absorbs 90% of my working time.   Sharon: Wow! Do you have people who work for you in the gallery?   Barbara: Yes, I have a couple of assistants.   Sharon: How do you find new artists? Do they submit things to you?   Barbara: Sometimes they submit them. Sometimes I work with curators and consultants. I explore new artists and try to see what's new in this world, plus I go to classes. I'm doing a class with an art historian with a focus on contemporary artists. So, I see the artists I like or artists I might find interesting for what they have to say. I always get inspiration.    Sharon: Is that an official class, or is that something you do because you like to?   Barbara: No, that's just because I like to. At this time in my life, I'm doing things just because I like them. It's always been an interest, so I want to pursue it; I want to do it. I do study a lot of art because that's not my background. My background is in law and then taking classes for an MBA. I've been working in a totally different field, so there's always a need to learn more. Of course, I've grown up surrounded by art, but that's mostly ancient art. That helps you build a critical eye and makes you a little more curious about exploring things, but somehow you have to continue pursuing what you like. So, I do study.   Sharon: Do people send photos to you of things you've never heard of?   Barbara: Yes, artists do propose. There are not that many, I have to say. They propose themselves mostly if they are emerging artists. A lot of contemporary jewelers do promote themselves, but I do not work with them most of the time because that's not my business. That is a very nice type of art, but it's not what I'm focusing on. What I do in the gallery is work with regional artists that usually do not do jewelry. I ask them to create something with their poetic position, with their aesthetic eye, with their meaning, and with the message they usually try to correlate with their art. I propose that they exploit a new medium to convey the same type of art, which is a small sculpture.   Sharon: Do they understand what you're after?   Barbara: Yes.    Sharon: And if you're low on rings or bracelets, let's say, and you need more, you don't tell them that.   Barbara: No, usually not. I ask them to do something and leave them free—at least at the beginning, I let them feel free to explore, to draw, to create a prototype in paper, in concrete, in clay, in wax, in whatever they like. That's a starting point. From that starting point, we start creating things. Maybe we say, “O.K., this one doesn't work as a bracelet, but maybe we can transform it into a necklace or into a pendant,” or “This doesn't work as a ring, but it could be an earring or vice versa.” It depends.    Sharon: Are they open to your changes, if you have changes?   Barbara: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they do not want to change the work, but the work is not wearable, sometimes we discharge that project. We do another thing.   Sharon: If it's not wearable?   Barbara: Yeah, because there are some limitations. If you want to create a ring in gold and in a particular size, but it doesn't fit because it would be way too heavy, then I cannot make it. If you want to make an earring and it weighs too much so that your ear falls down, there is no way we can do an earring. We can do something else, or we can change the material and try to find something lighter. Sometimes they do accept it; sometimes we just don't do that piece.    Sharon: You mentioned that you like the fact that you can show your art and jewelry in different places where you don't usually see it, like a gym.    Barbara: Since I've always been passionate about art, I've always thought people are quite shy about walking into a regular art gallery, especially in Italy. You have some sort of fear. “What if they ask me to buy it and I cannot afford it? What if I don't understand and I ask the wrong question?” Especially with contemporary art, it's always harder to approach it.    I had a chain of very high-end fitness centers. Very nice people were coming to the gym, and they were coming quite often. I had a lot of walls, so I said, “Why not exhibit some young artists or some contemporary artists?” I did, and it was appreciated by other people. They did approach the art and they liked it. Twice a year, I was doing a bigger exhibition with sculptures. For the rest, I was just exhibiting flatworks. It was quite a successful experience for everyone. We had nicer spaces for the clients that were seeing something new, and the artists sold pieces quite a few times. It was a win/win situation.   Sharon: Wow! We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why being a jewelry artist is like being an engineer How Barbara got her jewelry in the hands of famous rock-and-rollers like David Bowie and the Rolling Stones  Why Barbara doesn't separate her jewelry into women's and men's lines Why talent is only a small part of what it takes to become a successful jeweler About Barbara Klar Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright. Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day. New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer! Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky. Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video. Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains." Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter Blog Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Barbara Klar's jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara's celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Welcome back.    So, is your studio inside your home now?   Barbara: Yes, it is. It always has been. One time, I tried to have my studio in the back room of my store in SoHo. That just didn't work at all. If they know I'm there, everybody is like, “Is Barbara here?” I could never get any work done. Eventually, I was able to get a building in Williamsburg and have my studios there. It was a great building because it had been a doctor's office in the 50s, so there was a little living space in the back and the front had been all the examination rooms. That worked out perfectly for my studio at the time.   Sharon: And you're in Woodstock, New York now?   Barbara: Yes, I am. I love it here.   Sharon: Had you moved there before Covid, or is that just an area you like?   Barbara: I've been here about six years now. I've been all over the Hudson Valley. I think I moved here prior to Covid. It's a very arty town and full of weirdos and like-minded people. It's a cool place. It has the history of Bird-On-A-Cliff, which was where all the Hudson Valley artists started. It started as an arts colony. So, it's got that history, and it's nice to be part of a history.    When I had my store—and I loved my store on 7th Steet in the East Village—I was so akin and felt such a vibe from the previous generations of jewelers that had stores on 8th Street in the West Village. It was a complete circle to me, and I feel that way now as well.   Sharon: So, you targeted Woodstock or this area to live in?   Barbara: No, I was going through a breakup. It was very painful. I found a place here. I knew it would be my home and my love. I was lucky. It's one of those guided journeys.   Sharon: Looking behind you, I can see you have quite a well-developed studio. You have all your tools. It doesn't seem like you'd be missing anything there.    Barbara: Definitely not. It's great.   Sharon: Did you start out that way? Did you collect the tools throughout the years?   Barbara: Since 1979, I've been collecting tools. There's always something else you need as a jeweler and a metalsmith. About 10 years ago I sold my house, which was a little bit south of Woodstock, and got rid of everything except my studio and my clothes. That's where I'm at now, and it feels so good to not be buried with stuff. I just have my workshop, and that's basically it.   Sharon: That's the important thing, having your workshop. I don't know if you still do, but you had a very successful line of men's jewelry.   Barbara: Yeah, I was one of the first to do men's jewelry. That was probably in the late 80s, early 90s. I've done a lot of men's. I had a lot of gay male clientele. They were always coming in, and they had a large disposable income. It worked out great. I love to see a man in jewelry. I love what's happened with the metrosexuals in the last eight or nine years. Even the nonbinary and straight males are feeling more comfortable with jewelry, and I think it's really great. Coming from a rock background, you see a lot of flamboyancy on stage, and you see a lot of guys flashing metal. I think it looks great.   Sharon: It that what prompted you to develop this line? Did you ever sell it? Was it a production line or was it one-off? How was it?   Barbara: It's limited production always. I had a friend ask me recently, “Barbara, on your website, why don't you have a category that's specifically men's jewelry?” I said, “I'll never do that because I can never tell what a man's going to like.” With all of this large spectrum of gender identity, I can't tell what somebody's going to like. That's not up to me, to decide what men's jewelry is. So, I never really bought into that, but I know men and kids seem to like my work.   Sharon: They look in your window and come in and say, “I'd like to try that on”?   Barbara: Yeah, especially some of the bigger rings. I was always surprised what was attractive to them. Also, there's a lot of word of mouth. I never relied on advertising. I got a lot of press, which didn't seem to do much, but mostly it's because of word of mouth that people come to me.   Sharon: Is the press how you developed your celebrity clientele? You were mentioning that you have quite a roster or that you've done a lot for celebrities.   Barbara: Yeah, that just kind of happened. In my store in SoHo, I used to have what I would call my “deli wall.” You know how you go into a deli in New York and you see all of the celebrities saying, “Oh, thanks for that corned beef sandwich. It was the best I had”? I had that in the background. Over time, celebrities would come in. A lot of stylists would bring celebrities. I developed the deli wall, and it was word of mouth again.   Sharon: I always wonder when I look at a deli wall if they ask people for their signatures, if they have a stack of photos in the back and say, “Would you sign this?” How did that work for you?   Barbara: I'd always ask them. It's hard to do sometimes. I don't want to overstep because every celebrity reacts differently to being recognized and interacting, but you've just got to do it. It's funny; I'm impressed, but I know they're human just like me. On my website, I sometimes look at the marketing stats, and that page is the most visited page. Here in America, we love our celebrities.    I know a lot of them had a big impact on me, so I get it. Once I waited in line for half a day because I made this belt for Tina Turner. She was signing records at Tower Records in New York City. I went up to her and showed her the belt, and I was so excited because she meant a lot me. She got me through a couple of breakups that were pretty devastating. So, I get it. I'm a fan. Definitely, I'm a fan.   Sharon: What did she say when she saw the belt?   Barbara: She was like, “Oh, I love it. I just love it.” She said, “I'm going to wear it.” I never saw her wearing it, but she was very kind and wonderful and gracious.   Sharon: That takes guts on your part, just to show a belt to a celebrity like that.    Barbara: It's not comfortable for me because I'm very shy. I'm really a shy person. I even tried being in bands. My friends were in bands. I work better behind the scenes, but sometimes you have to jump off that cliff. I'm one of these people that I might be shy, but I'm also brave. I'll take a risk. I think in these times, with the all the competition out there, especially for jewelry designers, you have to take a risk and you have to be brave.   Sharon: Yes, absolutely. It's amazing to me; so many people I talk to who make jewelry, they say they're shy, but you have to put yourself out there. You have to put your product out there. You can't just sit in your studio.   Barbara: You can't, and you also have to be able to talk about your work. There was a relationship I had at one time, and we had these arguments because he would make this incredible work. I would say, “What does it mean? How would you explain it? How would you define it?” and he would say, “Well, I'm not going to do that. If I have to do that, it negates everything. People should be able to draw their own opinions about what I'm saying.” I was like, “No, I don't agree. I think you should be able to say what your intention was, how you see it. If it's interpreted differently, that's an extra plus in my mind.” I think everybody should be able to talk about their work.   Sharon: Especially if you are doing what I'll call art jewelry. You're not walking into a place like Tiffany, let say. That's the only one of its kind.    Barbara: Exactly. The one-of-a-kinds are like that. When I had my store in SoHo, the greatest thing that was the most fun for me was making an inspirational thing that I thought nobody would ever wear or buy and putting it in the window, because that would get people to come in. They were outrageous; they were huge, and often I would sell those pieces. It was a shock to me.   Sharon: How did it feel to see celebrities, such as Steve Jordan, wearing what you made?   Barbara: It's pretty incredible. Once it leaves my hands, it takes on its own journey. It's an ego boost for a minute, but then you've got to make a living the rest of the time. I've been in this business so long, and you think, “Oh my God, I got my stuff on the Rolling Stones tour. It's so great.” It's impressive to people when you're at a party and you can say that. Ultimately, it means nothing. Has he mentioned my name or anything on the Rolling Stones tour? No. That may never happen, and that's fine. I don't care. It's fun.    Sharon: Is it validation to other people if you're showing your work or talking about it, and you say a certain celebrity wore it? Isn't that validation in a sense?   Barbara: It is. I try not to buy into that too much. The validation really comes from myself. I know what I'm doing. It's fine. I don't really need that, but that's an extra special perk, I must say.   Sharon: A validation for you, but also—I'm not sure it would sway me, but for a lot of people—it depends on who the celebrity is, but it could sway somebody. They might say, “If ABC person wore it, then I want one like it.”   Barbara: Oh yeah, definitely. It works that way. To a lot of my rock-and-roll friends, the fact that I've sold a lot of work to Steven Tyler or Steve Jordan means something. Sometimes they'll come to me with special commissions. One of my first commissions when I had my store in SoHo was for a client who had been to London, and he was obsessed with Keith Richards and the bracelet he always wears. He wears this incredible bracelet made by Crazy Pig Studios in London. He came to me and said he wanted me to make a bracelet like the one Keith Richards wears. I said, “Why would you have me do it? Why don't you dial Crazy Pig in London and get the same bracelet?” He said, “Oh, I was in there. They were mean. They were really intimidating. I don't want to give them my money.” So, I said, “All right. It's going to be a little different, but I'll make one for you,” and I made this incredible bracelet. I still sell it today. It's the Keith Richards bracelet. It's a fun story.   Sharon: Wow! Yeah, that is a fun story. You're also writing a book now. Tell us a little about the title.   Barbara: Titles are interchangeable, but this has been the title for a while. It's called “You're So Talented.” I'm not sure what the subtitle is going to be exactly, but it could be “It Takes More Than Talent” or “Confessions of a Worker Bee.” It's basically about my stories, my experiences not being a businessperson and being more of an artist, surviving New York. A lot of stories. It's geared towards kids who have a lot of talent, but that's not all it takes. Talent is like two percent of what it takes to be successful and to be creative and to be a survivor.    Surviving in New York City was such an incredible challenge, especially when you're living and working on the street level. You can't control what comes into your space. You don't know how business is done. I had just opened my store in the East Village. I was 24 or something, and this big bruiser guy comes into my store and is like, “You gotta pay me for sanitation pickup.” I said, “What? I have to pay for sanitation? I thought the landlord took care of that.” He said, “No, we pick it up.” I'm like, “Well, how much do you want?” He said, “We want $75 a month.” I said, “What? I can't pay that. I can barely pay my rent.” He said, “Well, how much can you pay?” and I said, “Well, I can pay like $15.” He said, “O.K.” and he walked out. Wouldn't you know, every month he was there for his $15. It was crazy.   Sharon: You were honest, but you had to become a businessperson over the years.   Barbara: It was such a challenge. I have to tell you, another successful designer once said to me, “Nothing teaches you about money like not having any.” I think that was one of the wisest words, because I learned how to become my own bookkeeper, my own press person, my own rep. I also had to pay all the employee taxes, navigate the business end of it, try to get business loans. That was such an experience. I heard 2Roses talking about this on your podcast, too, about how business should be included in art school training. I was totally thrown out there and totally naïve.   Sharon: It sounds like the school of hard knocks.   Barbara: Definitely.   Sharon: And that's what the book is about?   Barbara: Yes. People say, “You're so talented.” If I had a quarter for every time somebody said that to me, I'd be rich. No, it's not about that. It's about perseverance, and it's about hearing a lot of “no's.” It's about coming through the back door instead of the front door. The book is about things that were on my journey that were important and meaningful to me, and that I think young people could learn something from about moving to New York as an artist. It's very different now. I don't claim to know the ins and outs of New York City at this point in life, but I think my journey is still relevant.   Sharon: Definitely. I'm curious how you took the “no's,” because you must have heard a lot of “no's.”   Barbara: So many. It gets you to that next point. A no is actually good, because you're forced to meet up with another solution or another path. I'll never forget; I wanted to be like Robert Lee Morris, who had his work everywhere and bought a ranch in New Mexico and everything. I remember being tested for QVC in the 80s. They were having young designers on QVC. I did the test, and I heard them in the background saying, “I don't know if she works well on camera. She might be a little too quirky. Her work is a little too eclectic.” I was like, “Oh God, really?” So, I was like, “You know what? I don't care. That's my thing. Maybe I don't want to be a production person.”    I looked into having my work made overseas and all of that, and I realized, in the end, I would just be a manufacturer. For me, the art was more important. The hands-on making was more important. The person-to-person contact, communication with my clients and my employees was really important to me. I enjoy that way more than if I had been basically a business owner.    Sharon: It's having the mark of the hand on it. If I know that you crafted it or somebody crafted it, it has much more meaning, I think.   Barbara: Absolutely. It means a lot to me. Recently I had a client whose mother was a big jewelry collector and had a couple of Art Smith rings. The client had lost one of the rings in the pair in Provincetown. It went into the ocean, gone. I was able to hold the matching ring in my hand and look at it and see a signature, because the client wanted me to recreate this ring, which I did do. But the whole time I was making this ring, I kept imaging Art. The ring was covered in dots of silver and pink gold and yellow gold. It's a beautiful ring, very asymmetrical. The dots were raised like a half a millimeter off the band, and there were like 50 dots on this ring. So, I'm thinking of him making this ring in his studio. Every dot had to have a peg soldered onto the back before it was soldered onto the band. I did that 50 times, and I'm thinking, “My God, this guy was tenacious.” I had a lot of respect.   Sharon: How did you decide to start writing a blog?  You write a blog. How did that come about?   Barbara: I really enjoy writing, and there are things I wanted to say that the work couldn't say by itself. One of the things I've always been obsessed with since I was a child are charms. When I was five, Sherry Carr across the street from me had a shoebox full of charms, like the bubblegum charms, and I coveted that box. I was obsessed with that box. Every time I would see it, I would be like, “Show me the charms.” I wanted to knock Sherry out so I could get that charm. I started collecting charms at a very young age. They mean a lot to me, and they mean a lot to my clients. I talked about that in one of my blog posts. I think that was one of my first blogs, talking about charms and the meaning they hold for us. I think the spiritual side is important to me, the emotion you put to it and how it goes on the body. It's for the body.   Sharon: Well, you have very eclectic jewelry, very unique jewelry. Barbara, thank you so much for being here today.   Barbara: I loved it. Thanks so much.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

The one where the Doctor has way too much fun....a perfect serial to introduce Newbies to the First Doctor! Commentary and analysis for Doctor Who's  "The Romans"Team TARDIS has been chilling in a Roman villa when the Doctor and Vicki get bored and go to Rome to meet Nero! But there is conspiracy afoot. Meanwhile, Ian and Barbara are captured by slave traders and suddenly must survive their very own adventure. DOCTOR: On my arrival, I was rather under the impression that there was some sort of intrigue going on here, hmm?NERO: Well, nobody said anything to me. Nobody said a word and I am always informed of intrigues!______BARBARA: Oh, it isn't fair, Ian, is it?IAN: No it is not. Still, got a funny side to it, hasn't it.BARBARA: Yes.____William Hartnell, take a bow! We'll chat about how brilliant Dennis Spooner is at dark comedy, the horror the comedy conceals, how the lyre-scene reveals the truth, and what these pure historicals can do better than New Who historicals....NEXT TIME:  Hannah & Brianna Talk Doctor Who--a special podcast in which my friend Hannah and I chat over The Romans some more!The following week we will continue on with The Web Planet. Special thanks to Cathlyn "Happigal" Driscoll for providing the beautiful artwork for this podcast. You can view her work at https://www.happigal.com/ Do feel free to get in touch to share the love of all things Doctor Who: throughthevortexpodcast@gmail.com

Commentary and analysis of Doctor Who's shortest serial "The Edge of Destruction!"The TARDIS crashes and the Team is trapped inside--and no one is quite themselves! Tensions run high as each member of the crew has to confront whatever force has come aboard the TARDIS....or is the real problem inside them all along?BARBARA: Yes. Or we're imagining things. We must be. I mean, how would anything get into the ship, anyway?SUSAN: The doors were open.BARBARA: Yes, but, but where would it hide?SUSAN: In one of us.I also use this episode to talk more generally about this specific Team TARDIS and why I think this Fearsome Foursome works so well in comparison to some of the other larger TARDIS crews, the significance of Susan and the Doctor's unique familial relationship, and the charge of "sexism" often labeled at Classic Who (my thoughts in short: "it's complicated.") NEXT TIME: Serial #4 Marco Polo (Episodes: "The Roof of the World," "The Singing Sands," "Five Hundred Eyes," "The Wall of Lies," "Rider from Shang-Tu," "Mighty Kublai Klan," "Assassin at Peking") ALL EPISODES ARE MISSING:-(To Watch:  Loose Canon's ReconstructionBBC's 30 Minute Condensed ReconstructionSpecial thanks to Cathlyn "Happigal" Driscoll for providing the beautiful artwork for this podcast. You can view her work at https://www.happigal.com/ Do feel free to get in touch to share the love of all things Doctor Who: throughthevortexpodcast@gmail.com

What you'll learn in this episode: How Barbara discovered she could combine gold leaf and enamel for jewelry that withstands daily wear What types of custom work has proven popular for Évocateur Why it was important for Évocateur jewelry to be made in the U.S. and sold at an affordable price point How Barbara moved from corporate finance to jewelry, even with no formal schooling or industry connections About Barbara Ross-Innamorati For ÉVOCATEUR Founder and Designer Barbara Ross-Innamorati, the love of fashion, art and design has always been hardwired into her creative DNA. Many years ago, Barbara became fascinated with and passionate about gold leaf, particularly the way it can transform even the most ordinary objects into something extraordinary and magical. As someone who always loved jewelry, Barbara went on a mission to adapt 22K gold leaf to jewelry design. After years of research and trial and error, she perfected the proprietary technique for which ÉVOCATEUR is now known. Today, these opulent designs are infused with inspiration from Barbara's extensive travels throughout the U.S., Europe, Africa and Asia. All of the designs have a sophisticated and unique spirit. From their Connecticut studio, Barbara and a team of skilled artisans design and individually craft each piece, wrapping them in 22K gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Using an intricate process, the jewelry is gilded and burnished by hand and is fabricated over a period of five days, resulting in an exquisite work of art, each piece finished to a rich patina. With only the finest materials used and impeccable attention to detail, ÉVOCATEUR celebrates the compelling relationship between art and fashion. The line, which includes cuffs, bangles, pendants, and earrings, can be found in premier jewelry retail stores throughout the United States and the rest of the world. Additional Links Évocateur Instagram Évocateur Website Photo: Transcript: For most of her life, Barbara Ross-Innamorati didn't think jewelry would ever be more than a hobby to her. Little did she know that she would later invent an entirely new category of jewelry. Her company, Évocateur, specializes in gilded jewelry covered in gold and silver leaf and artistic motifs. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her innovative technique, where she hopes her company will go next, and why she wants everyone to know that it's possible to start a second chapter in life. Read the episode transcript below.    Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Barbara Ross-Innamorati, designer and founder of the jewelry company Évocateur. Her jewelry features 22-carat gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Her line is sold around the world, and we'll hear about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the podcast. Barbara: Thank you, it's very good to be here. Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It sounds like you invented—it's not the right word, but we'll talk more about it. Barbara: No, that is close to the right word, Sharon. We're an 11 ½-year-old company. We were established in 2009, but my jewelry journey probably began decades ago. I trace it back to when I was a student in London. I went to an art exhibit, and it was a retrospective of Gustave Klimt, the famous expressionist artist. I saw the painting “The Kiss” there, and even being 20-something, I was struck by something I saw in the painting, and that was gold leaf. I didn't know what gold leaf was; I was just mesmerized by it and it stuck with me. I went on to finish college and got married, started work and had kids, and then I'd say about 12 or 13 years ago, the gold leaf came back to me, because I'd always loved jewelry. I had a wonderful collection of my own jewelry, and I got it in my mind, thinking, “Why can't we make jewelry that features gold leaf?” We have less expensive plated fashion jewelry, and then you have fine jewelry. There's got to be something in between, and there's got to be something we can use gold leaf on. Gold leaf is different than plating; it's actual sheets of gold. So, I went on in this fashion, to try and adapt 18-carat or 22-carat gold leaf to jewelry. It was a long process. I had no background in jewelry. I had never taken a jewelry class, not even an art class, although I loved art and I had a vision of what I wanted this to look like. 18 months later, through trial and error, I finally had a product, and I have to trace it back to that day at the National Gallery in London when I saw that painting.  We have, in the process, continued to evolve over the last 11 ½ years. It was something we couldn't read in a book; I couldn't read in a book. No one was doing it the way I was doing it, or at least getting the look I wanted. People had used gold leaf as accents on beads, but no one was wrapping it the way we had come up with through this process. I say “we” because over the years, even though I invented this process, my incredible team—and we're 100 percent woman owned and operated—has continued to progress and evolve and innovate to make this a much better process and product in the meantime. Even our signature flecking, which is little bits of gold, that was kind of an accident. The first time I was trying to get gold leaf on a cuff base, the little pieces of gold—gold leaf is as thin as a butterfly's wing—would break off and end up all over the image. That was an accident, but I looked at it and said, “That gives it a unique vintage, one-a-kind look.”  It's been a very interesting journey. We have brought together two materials that heretofore haven't been brought together, and that's gold leaf and enamel. In fact, when we have a product issue—and we've had many over the years, because we are blazing a trail in this process and product—I couldn't talk to my gold leaf guy in Florence, Italy, and I couldn't talk to my enamel guy in Rhode Island, because their materials had never been married together, so to speak. We had to solve things here, not in the tools that we use, but the entire process. So, that's how it began. I'm proud to say we've created this entire newly category of gilded jewelry, and it's been a long process. Sharon: It's an amazing story. Do you have metalsmithing or chemistry experience? Did you have any kind of background? Barbara: I have an MBA in corporate finance. I was an investment banker and corporate finance person before I did this, so no. I hope that's inspirational to people who think they can't do something. You just keep at it. I wasn't intimidated by not being from the industry. Sharon: Is that just your personality? It's intimidating. So many people grew up in jewelry families or they were chemists or something. Is that just you, you're not intimidated? Barbara: I think it was passion; I can't even tell you. I remember being up until 2, 3, 4 in the morning experimenting. The hardest part of this was not just getting the very thin gold leaf or silver leaf on a base, but how to seal it, because gold leaf heretofore has been used in the decorative arts. You see it on domes or churches. In New York, we have several buildings that have gold domes as well as gold statues. Those statues are covered with gold leaf, and when you put it on an object or even furniture, it's not sitting against someone's skin. It's gold; you don't have to seal it. Silver leaf, you have to seal because it will tarnish, so I had to find the right sealant that would protect it but not destroy it. It's sitting against a woman's wrist or her neck where there might be oils and sweat, and I had to find a way to protect that. I was passionate about gold leaf and loved art, and now we have a product that combines original art and gold leaf that's all made in the U.S. It's all made right here in Connecticut. Sharon: Wow! That's very unusual. Did you find people who knew how to seal it? Barbara: No, I tried many different materials, and I would wear it and stress test it. I remember finally the third material, which is a type of enamel, was the one that worked. It was hard because not only was I unschooled in this, but there was no school where I could learn this.  Sharon: You do the design of the jewelry. You're the designer, right? Barbara: Yes, we design everything here. We work with graphic artists and we have different types of designs. We also work with contemporary artists to put their artwork on our jewelry. You can go to our website and see Monet's Water Lilies or Van Gogh's Starry Night. These are all in the public domain, so we can use them without paying any type of royalty or rights. However, we also work with contemporary artists. We take their artwork and pay them a royalty to use their art on our jewelry. We also work with Erté, who was a famous—he did many things: costume designer, sculptor, artist. We work with a company that owns all of his artwork, and we have an entire line devoted to his art.  Sharon: Yes, that was surprising. I always think of the female statue—I don't know if it's in crystal, but that's what I think of when I think of him. He was a him, right? Barbara: Yeah, his actual name was Romain de Tirtoff. He was Russian-born, but when you said his initials, which are R and T, in French, it's pronounced Erté. Sharon: In today's world that's also unusual. You're looking at antiques like that, but not contemporary so much. They're beautiful. Tell us how you describe your jewelry to people when they ask what you do. What do you say to them? Barbara: We're obviously very art-driven jewelry, but I think we're colorful, whimsical, attainable. Everything retails for under $400. These are handmade pieces that take six to seven days to process. It is made, as in mentioned, in Norwalk, Connecticut, and it features 22-carat gold leaf. It's very artistic, but it's also travel jewelry in a way. That's another thing I point out; you get a lot of bang for the buck. It's bold, although we do have different widths. We go down to as narrow as a ¾-inch cuff. Earring silhouettes go from the smallest studs to the largest 2-inch tear drops. The same thing with our necklaces, but we do have that bold, gold look Sharon: It's beautiful. I happen to love cuff bracelets. You have some fabulous cuff bracelets. Barbara: Thank you. It's fun jewelry; whimsical, art-driven and unique. The other thing is that each piece is like a snowflake because it's handmade. The gilding will go on differently each time, especially the flecking, the little bits of gold or silver, so that each piece is really, truly like a snowflake. We can't replicate it. The image can be replicated, but the application of the gold leaf can't.  Sharon: That's amazing. Did you target that specific price point? Barbara: We launched our business in the middle of a recession, the 2008-2009 recession, and there was a lot of price resistance and price sensitivity. I tried hard to keep it under a certain price. There is a target, I guess. That's correct, that we try to be conscious of the price level. Sharon: It sounds like you had to go through so many iterations to develop the prototypes and find the one where you said, “O.K., we're ready to go.” How did you feel? Did you know when you saw it?  Barbara: Yeah, everything has to speak to me. I have to feel it.  Sharon: How did you feel then? Did you know when you saw it? Like, “I've done 400 prototypes, but this is it”? Barbara: The biggest challenge for me was finding the right enamel. It's what is called a cold enamel. It has to air cure. We can't fire it because of the gold leaf. When I got up the next morning and felt it and touched it after it had cured, I felt like, “Yeah, this is it.” Then, of course, I had to wear it. I would wear it for three or four weeks every day to stress test it because, as I said, we blazed a new trail here. There was no way for us to know if this was going to work. Sharon: I'm amazed that you've been so successful with it. It's so far afield from what you did before and what your education was in. l understand that you didn't study as an artist. You didn't study as a chemist or a metalsmith. Barbara: I had to learn a lot about chemistry while working with the enamels. We had problems, all kinds of issues that would—like if your studio is too humid, we've had issues with that. If the enamel doesn't cure correctly, then we have to file it off and start again. It's a laborious process. We've tried to short circuit it over the years, but the look is not the same.  Sharon: No, it sounds like a laborious process. Barbara: But it's very rewarding. Being relatively new to this industry, obviously there are a lot of challenges, but there's so much joy that we can be part of something happy and positive for the most part. I hear from customers and from our retailers what their customers are saying, especially when we do a custom cuff. I'm sure most jewelers and designers know what I'm talking about when you feel that “wow.” You made a difference. You're part of an important milestone. Maybe you're just part of someone's everyday life, but they get so much joy out of wearing something. That's something I never take for granted, because I never had a job like that, frankly, never. This is the first time. Sharon: What kind of custom work are people asking you for? To mark an anniversary or a trip? Barbara: We do so many different types of custom. This is probably our largest-growing segment right now. We can take any digital image—of course, we have to make sure it looks good—but we can take any digital image that any customer has and create a piece of jewelry from it that's embedded into the gold leaf or silver leaf. We do a lot of dogs. We do a lot of horses. Kids are a distant third behind pets. We've done cats. We've done a lot of map cups, mostly for our retailers. We'll find beautiful maps and we'll put it on a cup or a necklace, and then it becomes our retailer's signature piece. We've done Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston—you name the city, we have a map cup or earring or necklace to go with it.  We've done those types of customs, but then we've done very personal pieces for the retail customer as opposed to the retailer. It really is all over the place. We actually put somebody's car on one. She had a Ferrari, and she wanted a picture of her in her Ferrari on a cuff, so she sent this photo. She loved that. For a mother's day gift, one was a picture of somebody's childhood home. That was through one of our retailers. It was given to her mother. It was their home, and apparently the mother just wept when she got this cup. It's fun. It's very personal. If you can digitize it, we can generally create a beautiful piece of jewelry from it. Sharon: Wow! It's endless what you can do in terms of custom work. It's not surprising to me that pets are first. The first thing that flew into my mind was maybe a family picture, but when I think about things that make me smile—it sounds horrible—it's my dogs. Barbara: We've done a lot of dogs that have passed. When they pass, the owner really wants to commemorate them on a necklace or a cuff. There's always a story. That's the other thing; with all kinds of jewelry, there's always a story, and that's what I love. I like to think our jewelry has a strong narrative. In fact our name, “Évocateur,” means evocative. That's because when I started wearing my jewelry, when it was still just a hobby and I was trying to figure things out, people would ask me questions. They'd say, “That's really unique,” or “Why is there a butterfly on that cuff?” It would evoke conversations and connections, and for me it would evoke nice memories of a trip, for example. That's what I mean. Sharon: The Kiss is at the Neue Galerie right now, isn't it? Do you go visit that because it's so much closer than London right now? Barbara: Yeah, I've been to Neue Galerie on the Upper East Side of New York. It's a beautiful museum. Sharon: Oh, it's great. Barbara: Very inspirational. We also have the Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer, which is another famous painting of his. We put that on a cuff as well. Sharon: Beautiful! The price point is approachable, not off-putting, and you can customize so many things. What's one thing we haven't talked about? What's one thing I haven't covered that you think people should know? Barbara: This is definitely a second chapter for me. As I mentioned, my background was very different. Had I not lost my job—I had a really nice job and was downsized—this would have never happened. I think it's important for people to realize that sometimes great things come in not-so-nice packages. There's always a second chapter, no matter where you are or how old you are. Things can happen that may not look so great at the time, as I said, but I can guarantee you—because I had a great job, and there was no reason for me to leave that job—I can guarantee you that if my hand hadn't been forced and I hadn't started playing around with my hobby, that Évocateur would have never happened. I'd still be in that job, or maybe another job that's similar. That is an important message for anyone who finds himself in a less than desirable position or in something they didn't plan.  The other thing that's interesting is that the event that launched us was the lineup at Open See at Henri Bendel. Unfortunately Henri Bendel no longer exists in New York, but this was a semiannual audition, if you will, where any designer could line up, preferably between 5 and 6 a.m. if you wanted to be seen. The lines were long. Anyone could line up in certain categories, and the buyers at Henri Bendel would see them. It was called the Open See; it was very famous, and I decided I was going to go and present our collections. It was successful for us because they accepted us in, and that's really how we were launched. It gave me the commercial validation that I needed to turn this from a hobby into something more. That's the other interesting Évocateur historical info. Sharon: That's quite a launch. It's inspirational. I can see so many people saying, “Oh, they wouldn't be interested,” or they're not willing to be rejected. Barbara: Whenever you're an entrepreneur, you've got to realize that you're going to get rejections. It's par for the course, and you need a lot of internal fortitude. So much of what I've done is hard. There's no question. It's hard owning a business and creating something from nothing, which is what we did. Even when you start a business—maybe you have a product that does exist, but you still have to start it. Anytime you start something from nothing, you don't inherit it; you don't buy into it; but you're starting with zero, you're going to have rejection. You need a lot of passion for what you're doing and a lot of, like I said, internal fortitude to keep going. It's not easy, but it is rewarding. There are lots of highs, lots of lows. Sharon: It sounds very rewarding. It's the risk of living, but it sounds very rewarding. Thank you so much. It was a very inspirational story. I wish you continued success and growth, and it sounds like you'll have it in the future. It's coming; how can it not? Barbara: It's been an interesting ride. My biggest achievement to date, I think, is that we survived 2020. I'm serious. Sharon: I'm laughing, but I know— Barbara: My team is still here and we're still working away. Trade shows are coming back, and I'm optimistic for this year and the following year. Sharon: The fact that you're still here is quite an accomplishment. Thank you so much, Barbara, for talking with us today, and much luck as you move forward. Barbara: Thank you so much, Sharon. It's been a pleasure. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

This is the 6th annual episode with Barbara. Andrew and Barbara talk about making change. The challenges in trying to notice the end before feels like it has gone too far past us. The talk about the last year and the grand changes that are coming for both of them in 2020.  They also recorded a bonus for the Patreon on how to tell if something is fate or not. You can get access to that and all the great bonus material by signing up over here.  You can catch all the previous episodes here on my website. Or look up episodes 22, 44, 58, 72, and 90 where you listen to your podcast.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Barbara through her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. This week I am catching up with Barbara Moore just before the end of the year for our annual podcast episode where we check in on what's going on, what's changed, and, [00:00:17] you know, talk a lot about the shifting perspectives in our spiritual lives and practices and so on. You know, it's hard to imagine people don't know who you are, Barbara, certainly anyone in the tarot world, but for those who don't, who are you? [00:00:32] BARBARA: Oh, I forgot about this part of the interview. Yes. My name is Barbara Moore. I've been playing with tarot for, I don't know, maybe 30 years now. I'm probably best known for [00:00:47] a couple of things: one, creating tarot decks and writing books to go with them, and a few stand alone books as well, and I'm also the tarot acquisitions editor for Llewellyn, and I sometimes do some work for Lo Scarabeo as well. [00:01:02] And I teach here and there. ANDREW: Awesome. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, you know, one of the things that I wanted to talk about with you was, it seems like [00:01:17] for me, everything's changed, you know, since our last podcast, I have gotten divorced, and my ex has moved out. I had a fire that burned down my store, and I have since reopened and, you know, opened a studio [00:01:32] to see clients out of and opened a new store. And, so for me, it's been a massive year of change, you know, perhaps unsurprisingly, if you follow the tarot birth card, year card business, as my death card just ended [00:01:47] at the beginning of the month, but it's also been a year of or at least a time of change for you too, right? Like you're also, maybe not quite where I am on the other side of it, but really sort of [00:02:02] setting in motion a bunch of change for yourself as well. Right? BARBARA: [00:02:17] That is absolutely true. The cycle of change, I would say it started back in 2016, and it has ushered in a period of challenge and becoming stronger and having things ripped away to find out what really matters, [00:02:33] and, as your listeners, if they've been listening to our conversations know, that two years ago, I moved to California, my wife and I moved to California, and we've been having a great adventure as [00:02:48] well as a lot of challenges and struggles. And we have recently come to the conclusion that this has been a really fun adventure, and we're grateful that we had it, but it's time for the adventure to be over, and so we [00:03:03] will be moving sometime this summer. So that is a really big change that we can talk about. It's not like having a store burn down or having a divorce, a relationship, a marriage end, [00:03:20] but our relationship also has gone through some struggles, luckily came out the other end stronger and better, richer and deeper, but it's still, we're both like two different people now, so it's [00:03:35] almost like a new relationship because we're learning to be together in new ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know and one of the . . . one of the things that people always say is something like what you said, whenever they start talking with [00:03:50] their own things, like, it's not as bad as your situation or whatever, right? And, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, maybe, right, like I get that, but also I think it's . . . I think it's really real, [00:04:05] how difficult struggle is for people, right? And you know, I mean there is tragedy and loss and people dying and all, you know, all those kinds of things that you know, no joke are very difficult. Right? [00:04:21] But I think that it's really important to not diminish our own struggles too, especially in the face of that. Right? Like it's, there's no scale. There's no competition, you know? And maybe other people [00:04:36] feel differently, if they're in positions like mine, but I actually feel like just relating around stuff is so much better than when it starts to kind of slide into, you know, areas where it's like, [00:04:51] well, it's not as bad as your life, but you know, whatever. It's like, yeah, that doesn't feel so great. And now I feel like there's a sort of other element to it, that isn't, doesn't need to be there, you know? BARBARA: Like a competition [00:05:06] or something. ANDREW: Yeah, a competition, or a sense of apology, you know? I mean, I feel like if, if I know somebody well enough to talk about my life and their life, then we're on the same ground, right, you know? And everybody, I think [00:05:21] everybody understands that some things are more difficult than others, from a certain perspective, you know, but, but either way, I think it's . . . I think it's important to sort of just keep that relationship open, you know, and not, [00:05:37] I don't know, create that distance that sometimes comes with that for me. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting point. Like, how did we, as a people start doing that, because it really is a habit and I feel like it's a little bit like social [00:05:52] behavior niceties, because when I'm not talking publicly, like on a podcast, I would talk about what I went through in terms of now that I'm through it and I can see the other [00:06:07] side when I look back on it, it was so hard I don't even know how I got up every day. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, so to say to you, "Oh, it wasn't so bad." When, if I talk to you privately, I would be like, "Oh my God, I don't know how I did that," you know . . . so, you were right. We [00:06:22] are on equal terms here. It's been hard. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, and life is difficult, right? You know, I mean not all the time. Luckily there's great things, you know? I mean, one of the things that was interesting was being at the tail end of the summer, [00:06:37] and I was checking in with the kids, just before they went back to school this year, and I'm like, “How was your summer?” Right? And they were, they both gave it like rave reviews. And they were like, “Well, how was your summer, Dad?" And I was like, I'm like, you know, [00:06:52] “I don't give it an 8 a 10, and like those two missing points are cause like, relaunching the store during the summer was a ton of work and very stressful, you know? And like, just dealing with all the stuff that came with that was very stressful.” [00:07:07] And I was like, “Man, I'm doing pretty good at having a good time despite all this, you know, horrible stuff that's gone on and all the stress that comes with it,” right? You know?  But that also doesn't mean that there weren't days where I was like, “Oh my God, I have no idea, is that just [00:07:22] it, is this, you know, am I done having a store, is this over? Is that over?” You know, it's . . . Yeah, it's complicated when we lose that direction, right? I think it's . . . I think it's been challenging. And I think it's been a long time that you've been [00:07:38] sort of wrestling with this sense of direction, you know. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I'm thinking about . . . We talked somewhere in one of the past episodes about, probably before you moved out there, right? When I did that impossible reading for you, and you were like, “Oh, yeah, I'm [00:07:53] going to do all these things now,” you know? It's been, it's been a quite a while in some ways, I think, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I have, especially in terms of my tarot . . . well, in a lot of areas in my life, but in terms of my tarot career, [00:08:08] I have felt really lost. So, so lost and I . . . and there are a lot of elements to that. One, I should have wrote notes. [00:08:23] One thing that changed is I wasn't working with tarot for myself. Well, I wasn't reading for other people either. I quit doing that a while ago for, mostly because I didn't feel like I had enough [00:08:38] to bring, to give, I wasn't, my cup wasn't full. I couldn't fill anyone else's cup and I wasn't working with the cards for myself. So, starting in January, I started pulling a card a day, because that's like, what you tell beginners [00:08:53] to start and I would do it and I'd mark it in my daily journal and, but, and never did anything with them and so finally, but it was enough. I mean, I had, all I had energy to do was that. [00:09:08] And that was a start. I was touching my cards again and that mattered. Then when things started, mmm, taking an upturn, I added something like, "Okay, I want this daily draw to do [00:09:23] something more than just get marked down in my book and mean nothing, but use ink," and so I decided to start pulling two cards a day. And making them mean something. So the first card was [00:09:38] some energy that I was going to find myself into that day, you know, whether it was something that happened or my added something, just, just the energy of the day, something, and then with an eye to improving myself, [00:09:53] or becoming the person I want to be, more than I am. I pulled another card: "How can I interact with this energy?" To do that. And that has been super helpful. [00:10:08] That's made a big difference and made things more active for me in terms of like, doing something with the cards. So, you know, that's just a little thing but it's made a big, big difference. [ping from phone] I am so sorry about [00:10:24] . . . ANDREW: Well, that's okay. BARBARA: And I also had been thinking a lot about, like, I had been questioning the whole doing readings thing. Right? What do we do readings [00:10:39] for? What's the purpose? Oh, these mundane readings about our everyday problems. How boring is that? Or is that even the right thing to do? I mean, just very angsty, kind of pointless, spinning my wheels questioning, [00:10:54] and then, you know, when I was thinking about, we were going to talk, and I'd thought I'd like to talk about that, and I had a kind of a revelation. I'm not sure if it's going to stick, but it's a thought, that because I [00:11:09] want to do readings about different things, or in different ways, or with a different focus. I had to denigrate those readings, for some reason, you know, I think maybe it's human nature sometimes to make ourself feel better and more confident, we have to put [00:11:24] down something else for whatever reason. And so, even just that thought made me feel a lot better about things like, "Oh, well, just because I don't want to do that and just because I want to do this, [00:11:40] that doesn't mean the other is bad. I don't have . . ." You know? I mean, does that make any sense? ANDREW: I do. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, maybe a year, two years ago, [00:11:55] I was sitting during my, you know, not daily draw, but regular draws, and I was like, writing in my journal, and I found myself writing something like, "Well, when I'm free, blah blah blah [00:12:10] blah blah," right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And, and I, for whatever reason, on that day, as opposed to the various other days when I'd written something similar, I stopped and I looked at it. And I was like, [00:12:25] “Well, when is that going to be? And what does that look like?” Right? And I'm like, you know, at the time I was in an open relationship without a huge amount of limits on it. I mean some, but not, you know, I'm like, it's pretty darn free, I'm like, [00:12:40] you own your own store and you work for yourself. Like, what, what is it that other people are defining for you or that are limiting for you, right? You know? And the answer became pretty clear that it was very [00:12:55] little, right? Not nothing. But very little, right? I still have to pay taxes, I still have to, you know, whatever, there are certain things, but . . . And, I spent a lot of time sort of chewing on that for a while and realizing how [00:13:10] how often, movement, change, you know, these ideas were sort of created on continuing to define myself in relationship to other things [00:13:25] that actually had no sway or real say over my life, right? You know, I mean if I, if I decided, you know, I mean, I'm a, I'm a very fortune-teller-oriented card reader, but if I decided that I had enough of [00:13:40] that, and all I wanted to do was psychological readings, I could just change my website and filter people based on that and inform them, when they tried to book that, you know, this was the process going forward and that would be it. Like there's, there wasn't a lot of [00:13:55] things that prevented me from the various things that I was sort of waiting to become free enough to do. And so, since then I've spent a lot of time keeping my, keeping my definition and directions [00:14:10] in check, right? Like really looking at them, and saying, “Okay, am I, am I defining this relationally? Am I in relationship with some idea that I'm not actually interested in or don't want to live by," and so on, you know, and it's, [00:14:25] it's not always easy, but I think it's really helpful. Right? So look at those pieces and say, you know, your practice has no bearing on day-to-day type questions, right? Your practice doesn't need to have any relationship to the way I read or other people read [00:14:40] or the, you know, the whims of the tarot community and, you know, this year, next year, or 10 years from now, you know. BARBARA: Yep. Yeah, knowing [00:14:55] what you want, cleanly, and being realistic about it, and not just finding excuses, that takes a lot of self-reflection and honesty, [00:15:10] but will really make a big difference.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: In how you feel about your life in this moment. ANDREW: So, how do you, how do you generate that self-reflection? [00:15:25] You're talking about tarot, as one part, your tarot practice this year. How else do you talk--how else do you figure out? Because andone of the things that I think is--yeah, it's a bit of a theme, I think, with some episodes, it comes [00:15:40] up in various places, but this idea of like, how do you know when you're done? Right? How do you know when enough's enough? How do you notice that change, mark that change? You know? And so on, right? BARBARA: Yeah. [00:15:55] And, hmmm . . . Like, if we could come up with a format, a step-by-step format, on how to get yourself to that spot, we could probably be millionaires. Because everyone wants to know that, I [00:16:10] think. Because, at least for me, I have not come up with a method that, like, walks me to the spot where I can step over the line out of, you know, the mists of confusion into clarity. [00:16:26] I don't have that. For me, it has been, it has felt like waking up. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: Like, like I've been either asleep or underwater [00:16:41] or walking through Jello or something. And I don't realize it at the time for that. I mean, I know I don't feel right, I know I feel confused and unhappy, no energy, but [00:16:56] I don't really fully understand that state of being asleep or underwater until I start coming out of it. And then I see it. And then I start thinking, [00:17:12] I don't have to be that way anymore.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And so, when I can, it's like this pivotal point, this space where, like, a liminal space between what has been going on and what could be and [00:17:27] I have this opportunity to keep behaving the way I had been or changing the behavior. But before that, I don't know that I could have changed the behavior. I don't know that I was in a place where I could have [00:17:42] done that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, for me, it's this point where . . . Or at least how it feels for me right now, is, I can't wait to get started on the next phase and [00:17:57] I haven't had that excitement, energy, or enthusiasm in two years. So how . . . But how do I know? It's, it's, it's vague. I don't have . . . well, maybe as we keep talking, I'll think of more concrete things. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: But, to start the conversation, [00:18:13] it, that's what it feels like for me. What's that feel like for you? ANDREW: I mean, lately, so like in the last year, I've been noticing [00:18:29] where I'm not putting energy, that I officially think that I'm putting energy right? Where do I feel a difference between, you [00:18:44] know, something that I'm excited about, you know? It doesn't, it doesn't make it difficult for me. It's not difficult for me to show up and make art in my studio. You know, making art is great. I mean, [00:18:59] it requires, it requires having some time, you know, and it requires, you know, ideally not having sick kids at home or whatever, like certain things, but it's pretty easy to make that commitment. [00:19:15] You know, I've been sort of in and out of relationship in terms of polyamory this year a bit, and one of the things that I noticed around some of that was, where I was [00:19:30] willing to put in a certain kind of effort or show up in a certain way in one situation, but not in another. You know, and to me, that starts to be like, okay, so if I'm, if I'm willing to make the extra time or [00:19:46] hang out with them if they're sick or, you know, whatever, but with somebody else, I'm not feeling that as much, then those kinds of decisions start to be little flags for me. It's like, not necessarily that it's the end, but it's, something needs to change there, right? Or something has changed [00:20:01] there, and I need to sort of look at that. Right? And I think that, I don't know that we ever notice the moment, right? Like I don't know if there's a, you know, barring like, really, you know: And I said something and then they smack me in the face and I said [00:20:16] "We're done," like, you know, unless it's, like, ridiculous and dramatic, which is, you know, never really my life. I don't think that we ever notice explicitly those moments. I think that we notice, we can notice [00:20:31] when we're wobbling along that line, and then we can sort of reflect and see what's coming. Or what makes sense from that point, you know? BARBARA: Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes, you're right. It's, it is hard [00:20:46] in these things to pick a point, as you said, and for most of it's probably more like a process, you know, that it takes some time and, but, sometimes even within that process you can find like little mini points, you know, [00:21:01] like, I remember, I remember admitting to myself . . . Because we'd already started talking about how California wasn't right for us. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And, so, the next question was, where do we go next? ANDREW: [00:21:16] Mm-hmm. Is the answer Tijuana? BARBARA: The answer is not Tijuana. ANDREW: Okay. BARBARA: I found myself not being super excited about thinking about where to go next.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I knew I didn't want to be here. Didn't know where I want [00:21:31] to go So, I kind of made myself think about that, and in that moment, I had this realization that hit me very hard: I want to go home. [00:21:47] And that was hard to admit, and hard to feel, and hard to know, because I knew it wasn't going to fly for us, for us, my marriage, my, our family, our little, just the two of us were a family. [00:22:04] Because we didn't want the winters. We . . . The winters in Minnesota are just too, too, too much and we're not ready for that. But just knowing that, one of the things I learned during this adventure is my family [00:22:19] and my Minnesota friends are very important to me, like more important to me than I knew before I left. ANDREW: Hmm. BARBARA: And so that little, and that, so that was a mini, like, you know, moment. [00:22:35] And then, like, when I actually told Dylan that, that was another moment, because it was scary to say that, you know, for me, because it was like, I can't believe I'm gonna say this. Because one fear was, what if she says, “Okay, let's go [00:22:50] home,” and then I'm stuck in Minnesota winter again! But anyways, so, yeah, these little mini moments of, you know, revelation. Oh, and another thing that I have noticed. I don't know if you've had this too. But now that I feel like [00:23:05] I'm being more honest with myself, that we're on, we have some more clear direction on what the future is going to look like, synchronicities are happening.  Like, I can barely like, take a breath without something, like [00:23:20] helping me feel like I'm on the right path. You know, and I've heard people talk about that, like well, if you're looking for it, of course, you're going to find it. You know, like cynics might say that. And other people might say, [00:23:35] “Well, yeah, that's a sign that you're on the right path.” I don't know if I'd quite go that far, because I'm not sure what I believe about the right path thing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Fate and destiny, that's going to be a focus of study this coming year. I'm very excited about it. ANDREW: [00:23:50] Well, you know, it's funny. I have those as listed, at the top of my list of things I want to follow up on in this conversation: agency, force, death, destiny, and free will. So we can, [00:24:05] we can set some explorations on it in this conversation and then, you know, a year from now we can report back as to where it's gotten. So yeah. BARBARA: Absolutely. Totally. Yes, right. So synchronicities, you know, [00:24:20] they always, I find them comforting, and encouraging, so whether they're actually real or not, it doesn't matter to me right now. I'm taking my comfort where I can get it. It's helping. ANDREW: So, and I think that, [00:24:35] first of all, I think, you know, as the song says, you know, whatever gets you through the night. Like, I think that finding comfort where we can is always, you know, as long as it's not too self-destructive. [00:24:51] I think it's always a great move, right? I think that, you know, this year of sort of moving through the fire and doing that has definitely been a year of more indulging- and comfort-orientated behavior [00:25:07] than is usual for me. And I'm just like, you know what? Life is fricking hard right now, so I'm not going to worry about that too much. And I'm just going to, you know, lean into that wherever and whenever I need to, you know, so there's been [00:25:22] more naps, more ice cream, and more TV this year than would normally be a thing for me, because sometimes that, you know, for me anyway, that's part of getting through these times, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I think that, you know, [00:25:38] so, synchronicities are a thing that I am very interested in, especially because it's often touted as the explanation of how tarot works, also, right. You shuffle the cards and the universe [00:25:54] through synchronicity arranges them in a way that is meaningful. And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of fine and fun as an answer unless you try and like [00:26:09] say, “What does synchronicity mean? How exactly does that function? And you know, is there anything behind that?” And then all of a sudden you just like slide into utter chaos of inexplicable mystery, right? And I think that that's fine. I have, for me, I'm [00:26:24] like, you know, mystery is the answer, right? I'm like, tarot runs on mystery. That's all we need to know about it. BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Exactly, exactly, right? But, so, I think [00:26:39] that synchronicity is, you know, lots of people are really into numerology, and, you know, they're like . . . I've, you know, people come for readings, like, "I've been seeing lots of triple eight lately, or triple this, or triple . . ." [00:26:54] And I'm always like, "Well, that's cool. What does it mean?" And you know, it . . . And then they'll often say a thing followed by the question, which is usually, “So when is that going to manifest?” Right? [00:27:09] And so, you know, and I don't mean this to make fun of people, like I'm not at all, right? Like absolutely, there are those moments where like, “Oh, there's a sign. Okay, where's the, where's the product?” Right? “Where's, where's the actual outcome of that?” So, [00:27:24] sort of more and more over time, I've been, I've been looking at what it is that I believe, how I approach things, and thinking about . . . [00:27:39] You know, people always ask me, like, well, so “What's the, what's the astrology in the Orisha tradition?” Right? “What's the astrology in your Orisha practice?” And I'm like, there is none, it doesn't exist. Right? It's not a part of it at all. There's no, no consideration [00:27:54] given to it in any real sense. There, there is, notions around times of day, a bit, depending on what we're talking about, and if you practice in a syncretized kind [00:28:09] of way with the saints, then maybe certain Orishas have their day, right? You know,  where many people celebrate them extra, but there is no astrology. And, and I've been noticing the sort [00:28:24] of growing tension for me between, like, astrology, which I stopped reading this year, and stepped away from and decided that I was going to actively not engage any more, and [00:28:39] the way in which I was feeling stressed and tense around that stuff some, and the fact that it's not actually a part of my religious practice at all. Right? And I'm kind of the same with, like, some of the [00:28:54] synchronicity stuff, you know? There have been times in my life where I was very intense on that kind of stuff and, you know, thought about it and wrote about it, had a bunch of experiences with it. And now there's [00:29:09] basically only one symbol from the universe that I'm interested in. Well, there's a couple. One, but the synchronous thing, or the thing that I think fits this way, is if I find a playing card on the street, [00:29:24] then for me, that's a message, and I will interpret the card based on my knowledge of reading them and we'll go from there. Right? The other thing that is synchronous, you know, from a certain perspective, but I see it as more directly as a message [00:29:39] from spirit, which kind of has a different definition in my mind. So, like, three months ago, maybe a little less, I broke up [00:29:54] with someone that I'd been with for a long time. We decided to change the nature of our relationship. And it was very kind and very honest. And you know, and the relationship has changed into [00:30:10] a really good friendship, which is lovely. But about two days after I . . .  that happened, I found a robin's nest on the ground with three dead eggs in it like broken eggs, right? And I was [00:30:25] like, everyone's like, “Oh, that's just so . . .” I'm like “No, this is just sad and unpleasant,” right? You know? And I was just like, yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely acknowledging like the depth of the disruption that's happened here. And, [00:30:40] and so, you know, I took that, I picked up the nest, and I saved it, and you know, it's around still. And, and then, maybe three weeks ago, two weeks ago, [00:30:55] I was walking through this laneway that I identify with the spirit that I work with a lot. And there was a pigeon on, like sort of flopping around a bit, with this, what looked like a branch [00:31:10] wrapped around its neck, and I'm like, "Oh, how am I going to free this poor bird? Is it going to let me get close enough to liberate it?" And as I got a little closer, the bird, I realized, was actually holding onto the branch. It was not stuck by it. [00:31:25] And it flew up and it flew directly up over my head, circled maybe like five feet above my head, three times, and literally dropped the branch into my hands. BARBARA: No way! ANDREW: And I was like, "Perfect, now [00:31:40] there's a new nest. Now I'm going to build something new. Now I've moved on, internally, I've moved on," right? BARBARA: Ohhhh . . . ANDREW: So to me, these are events that I take as as close to synchronous as people usually mean by that, right? [00:31:55] You know, direct message from somewhere else, right? And to me, they are clear, and concrete, and so on, in a way that, you know, not to diminish anybody else's experience, but [00:32:10] that those other kinds of symbols, I'm not sure what they mean, right? At least in my life, you know? And so, yeah, but also, you know there have been plenty of times in my life, where I'm like, [00:32:25] "Oh, yeah, I saw that, I saw that number again. I'm on the right path. I'm on the right path," you know? And I think that that's fair too, I think I just have a different relationship to it now, and I have a different set of expectations maybe. So. BARBARA: [00:32:40] Yeah. Okay, great. It all makes sense. And I love the story about the pigeon. Oh my God, I'm still stuck on that. Anyways, yeah. So, synchronicity, like levels of synchronicity, or is it [00:32:55] synchronicity, or is it a message from the divine, are they two different things? Those are really great questions. I think I agree with you. I think there is a difference between them. And, like synchronicity, I mean, I think the actual definition of it is like two [00:33:11] disconnected things that seem to have a connection. And I think that we humans are the ones who give that connection or give that meaning, so, so maybe what, why it's comforting to me is because if I [00:33:26] see something that brings to mind something else that's connected with what I'm doing at the time, or going through or thinking about, it just helps remind me that that's where my attention is.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, you know, maybe it's just this, a [00:33:41] way of like stoking the fire, like, yes, this is what my intention is. This is what I want to think about. You know, but on a kind of more subtle level or something. And then, you know, messages from the divine, then, I think, are kind of different. [00:33:57] You mentioned finding the cards, playing cards, specifically playing cards on the street is pretty funny. It reminds me of . . . Dylan has something that she has always called parking lot divination, and she started it when she was [00:34:12] a book cover designer at Llewellyn. Now, as you could imagine, the trash cans, the big garbage bins outside of Llewellyn, sometimes would have cards in them, for, you know, if a package had been damaged or whatever. [00:34:27] And so, sometimes, I guess, they would blow around and she would always walk around the building, you know, for exercise every day. And so sometimes she would come across these random cards on the, you know, and she would always pick them up and they would mean, she would read them as [00:34:42] a divination, and she still does that to this day, and she finds a surprising number of playing cards just out and about in the streets. It's very strange. So, so yeah.  ANDREW: They're definitely around. BARBARA: Yeah.  ANDREW: The other thing [00:34:57] that's funny is I almost never find a whole deck. A couple times I have. Yeah, and often I'll find them clustered for periods of time, you know, like I will find [00:35:12] different, different cards in different places for a couple months, and then I'll find nothing for six months. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And then I'll start finding them again, which is also, to me, interesting. Yeah. BARBARA: Huh. I have another kind of [00:35:27] a symbol story, and you know, does it mean something? Or does it mean nothing? Or did I give it meaning or whatever? That . . . it's a story that I wanted to tell you, you know, any, at some point today, anyways . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Cause it's very, it was very significant [00:35:42] to me. So, So, okay. How to tell the story? Okay. So, Dylan is not going to be here at Christmas. She's actually flying back to Minnesota for Christmas. I'm going to be [00:35:57] here alone, which is great because I have a whole, you know, personal retreat planned and ritual, and all kinds of crazy great stuff, but because of that, we did our little personal celebration on Sunday. And, [00:36:12] but we had agreed on no presents because of reasons. And, but she said, "But, I do have one present that I actually started the process for it a few months ago. So, there'll be [00:36:27] the one present." I'm like, “Okay, I can, I can let you give me a present, no problem.” ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And so, well, so the back story that you need to know to understand the present [00:36:42] is: When we got married, she gave me a necklace, and it suited me perfectly, it was meaningful and beautiful and we both loved it. And it was just, it was [00:36:57] like a symbol, one of the many symbols of us.  ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And in May, we were, we were out at the coast. I was taking a watercolor class, and we'd gone together, and I brought the necklace but I didn't, [00:37:12] I don't sleep in it. So I, you know, just take it off, and I, you know, put it somewhere, then . . . Long story short, it got left in the hotel, and when we called the hotel, they're like, “No, it's not in the room.” You know? So, [00:37:27] I mourned that necklace. I cried, it felt, it felt symbolic. It felt like “Oh my God, our marriage is,” you know? It's, it just made me so sad because [00:37:42] things had been hard, we're working through some things, and I just took it as this horrible, horrible omen, and it just broke my heart. And the company, [00:37:57] we couldn't find, it looks like the company didn't make the necklace anymore, so I couldn't even get a replacement, and it was just horrible, horrible. Well, so Christmas comes, present time. She gives me a . . . Okay. So she brings me a card and a little, little present and I opened the card and I start [00:38:12] reading it and I start bawling because she's written some stuff that is breaking my heart in a good way. And she's like, “Well, since you're crying, hold on, we'll just keep going.” And she goes in the other room and brings out a different package [00:38:27] and I start opening it. And it's wrapped in this kind of a gift baggy thing that we've had for years and we only use it for a very special gift. And . . .  ANDREW: That's really sweet. BARBARA: It [00:38:42] is, it is, we haven't used it in a number of years because you know, it hasn't been like that. And so, she, I start opening it. And then inside it is a bag from Arthur's Jewelers, Arthur's Jewelers [00:38:57] is the Jewelers in St. Paul where we got like our wedding rings from, and if we ever get like actual real jewelry, which we don't have a lot of, but we get it from them, and as I saw the bag and I'm like, she got me jewelry, what? And, and, then all of a sudden [00:39:12] I knew what was in that bag and I have never ripped the package open so fast in my life, and it was the necklace. And I saw it, and I have, I cried like my [00:39:27] soul was, I don't know what was going on. But I've only cried like that like maybe three times in my life, and it felt like a symbol, you know, like a sign like, okay, like, you lost [00:39:42] it. You guys were in the like, the three days of death or the three days after death, like, you know, in the bowels of hell fighting the demon, and now you're done, and now you, you know, you have the same, it's a new necklace, but it's the same necklace. It, [00:39:57] so, it's kind of like our marriage. It's the same marriage, but it's a new marriage and it was hard won. And until I lost it, I didn't realize how much it meant to me, and, you know, so, [00:40:12] I felt like the necklace, was always symbolic, the loss of it was symbolic, the reacquiring of it was symbolic. So that's another thing entirely, you know, was that divine? Was that something we, [00:40:27] that . . . I don't know. How did that happen? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that the answer is probably always really complex, right? You know, I mean, people, [00:40:43] you know, people talk about like, the fire, right? Me having the fire. They're like, “Well, you know, maybe it happened for a reason so you could whatever.” And I'm always like, "I don't, I don't buy that answer at all.” Right? I mean, you know, that [00:40:58] said, right? I think that, like many things, I hold sort of contradictory ideas about it, right? And in myself, they seem fine to be contradictory, right?  I know that, [00:41:13] you know, in some ways, that the fire must have been a part of my destiny, in some sense, because of the advice of the Orishas in the time around it, right? You know, we have this [00:41:29] kind of source of negativity, which is Otonowa, which means that which we brought with you from heaven, right? And sometimes it means, sometimes it means that literally. Maybe sometimes [00:41:44] it stands for things that just can't be changed and we have to work through in one way or another, but, you know, this was part of my advice from the Orishas around that time. So, I'm like, well, fair enough, something was going on there, in that regard. [00:41:59] But also like, the idea that, you know, I talked about this, I think in the last episode too with Chiron Armand, you know, the idea that we are always progressing towards other things, or better things, and [00:42:14] so on. I don't necessarily believe that, either, right? I think that, you know, we can look at people's lives and see that that doesn't happen, sometimes, right? Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. And the reasons for that are, [00:42:29] you know, complex and, you know, and always a bit obscure as well. Right? Why does, why does one experience sort of break a person in a way that they don't recover from? And why does it, you know, [00:42:44] you know, just deeply bruise or wound or maybe not even apparently sort of injure another person, right? You know, there's such a diversity amongst us all and why that is the case, right? But for me, I look at [00:42:59] these situations and I think that it becomes a question of what do we, what do, you know, there's, if we want to call it fate or whatever, those, those experiences that are beyond our apparent control, right? [00:43:14] Or that are the unexpected byproduct of decisions that we have made, maybe in the case of a relationship, that might sort of give the appearance of fate, and might coincide with synchronicities, right? That moment when you lost the necklace and it cued you to, [00:43:29] you know, all of the bigger changes that were going on, right? And then there's the question of what do we do with it? Right? You know? And I think that that is also, you know, such a big distinction, [00:43:44] right? You know? And like, me ending up in the situation that I'm in now, which is in many ways more ideal than the situation I was in with the store. You know? Or where the store was at, at the time of the fire. You know, on the one hand, [00:43:59] yeah, that's, it's great that it's, that it's sort of working out really well, but also there's a, there's a lot of it that's really, was already in my two year plan. You [00:44:14] know? Like I was already thinking about these ideas and working on them. And so, some of this transformation, you know, I'm just going to take credit for, by saying, you know, like look, I had these ideas that because of the [00:44:31] concreteness of having the store were going to take me a long time to make shift, that in some ways the fire basically just liquidated my assets into cash and allowed me to transform it, you know, [00:44:46] and applying it towards those plans. You know? There's that, that sort of balance of agency, free will, and the intersection of fate, right? Because I think that what we, what we do when things happen is, [00:45:02] you know, is important, and makes a big difference in that, you know? And I think that the more we cultivate a capacity to, you know, to make good decisions during those times, [00:45:17] you know, the better that can go and so on, right? So, anyway, I don't know, I don't know if that makes any sense at all. But . . . BARBARA: Oh, yeah. Well, as you say, these things get confusing to talk about, so, yeah, I think yeah, insofar [00:45:32] as it can make sense, it totally makes sense. And, kind of, almost kind of connected with that is, you know, this, the idea [00:45:47] of like judging something as good or bad. Okay. It's, and it's kind of connected with the idea, “Oh, it happened for a reason.” Well, I mean first of all, almost everything does happen for a reason because cause and effect exists. And you know, so there was a reason, [00:46:02] but I know people are talking about a grander reason then electrical faultiness or whatever. So, things happen for a reason, maybe, you know, they . . . Things happen, [00:46:17] is what what it is, and trying to judge whether they're good or bad. I mean, we want to do that because that's what we do because we're binary beings, I guess, you know like, “Oh, that's good. That's bad.” I mean, people always say [00:46:32] what they think, but you can't always tell if something's actually good or bad in the long run until time has passed, because there have been things that I went through that I wouldn't want to go through again, [00:46:47] but I'm glad they happened, because then XYZ happened, not saying it happened for a reason, you know, like because it didn't magically do anything. It also ties kind of into what you're saying, your own agency and own preparedness, [00:47:02] your own, you know, strength of will, whatever you want to say, you know, you can bring that to it and turn things around.  But it's also one of the things that bothered me, puzzled me about these, you know, more everyday readings, you know, like, people are like, “Well, [00:47:17] you know, I'm thinking of taking this job. Should I take this job?” And you know, I mean, I don't know about you, but like if I'm looking into the future, I'm not real comfortable looking more than six months out. I just don't. [00:47:32] And you know, so if I'm, you know, do a reading and it's like, well, yeah, the job says this, this, and this, and maybe some things they consider not good and then they don't take it. But if they took it, then it would [00:47:47] have led to XYZ. So, you know, just, we don't always know. We think we know what we want in the short term. We think we know what our goals are. Oh, I want to manifest this, I want to do this, if the cards say it's all going to be positive. [00:48:02] I think we lose something in that, because not everything we do has to be completely positive or successful to be worthwhile or to be part of a larger journey that might be more worthwhile. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: Does that make sense? ANDREW: It does. [00:48:17] I mean, I think that, I think that the question of like, you know, one of the questions that I've been thinking about for a while, specifically around, you know, my work life, is like, what's enough? Right? [00:48:32] At what point, at what point am I successful enough? I mean, to put it in really basic terms, at what point am I making enough money? And what, what is it that I would like from going beyond that point? Right? You know? And I think [00:48:47] that, you know, working for yourself is not like kind of getting into a job description position that you like and just sort of like, "perfect, if I just stay in this job till I retire, that's great," because working for yourself doesn't really work that way, and I'm not sure the economy works that way [00:49:02] that much anymore anyway. But you know, but I think that we have these sort of notions of progress, of enlightenment, of, you know, all those kinds of ideas that are, you know, cultural [00:49:17] to capitalism and you know, like cultural to North America and so on, maybe, that, that I think are questionable how helpful they are, right? You know, like, [00:49:32] I don't, I don't know that . . . Like mostly what I'm interested in is making art, making more art, making more art, and doing the things that supports [00:49:47] that, right? And you know, like, I love running the store. I love doing readings for people. But I think that like, the idea of it sort of going anywhere. I'm like, well, I [00:50:02] don't know where, I don't know where it goes, and what the definition of where it goes, and what the grand plan is. I just want to, you know, do my practice, which is, you know, making art and reading cards for people, and just continue to do that. And I think that, you know, [00:50:17] that you're right, that it's hard to say, on a big arc of time, what might be good or what might be difficult. You know, like if we get, if we take a job, maybe it's crummy for six months and then it's great [00:50:32] after that, and so on. But I also feel like the idea of persevering through stuff towards an outcome. I'm really [00:50:47] less and less interested in that these days, you know? If something, if something, if the exchange isn't good in the short term, then I don't, you know, I don't, I'm not really that interested in sort of engaging in that [00:51:02] to get to a theoretically better long-term, you know? And, and I think that, I think a lot of people, especially around relationships, right, sort of work through, try to work through stuff, [00:51:17] you know, to get to . . . Especially newer relationships, right? Like maybe if you've been with somebody for a while as you have been, that, you know, there's a, there's a different math around, like, well, I was involved for this long. [00:51:32] And so now I'm willing to commit a longer stretch of time to working on things.  BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: But, but, I think that for me, I'm like, I'm not that interested in working on very much these days in those kinds of ways, you know, and if something isn't [00:51:47] flowing, I don't have the, I haven't seen the value of spending the resilience and capacity on working hard at stuff that is difficult [00:52:03] towards accomplishing longer term goals without making a change, right? You know, I think about it like Crowley talks about the Strength card or the Lust card in his tarot deck, right? And, and I think [00:52:18] that he draws a distinction in his writing on it, where he says that, you know, lust is not the absence of effort, right? It's not the absence of exertion. It is the absence of noticing the exertion, right? [00:52:33] Or something along those lines, right? And that idea that, you know, if we don't mind the work that we're not going to notice it, right?  BARBARA: Right.  ANDREW: And if we do mind the work, well, then, maybe we need to, maybe that's one of those cues to make a change, right? [00:52:49]  BARBARA: Yeah, that's gorgeous. And if you follow it, like if that's kind of a guideline that you're following for your life right now, as you were saying, then you probably [00:53:04] wouldn't be doing readings on things so much, because if you're like, I'm, I'm going with how things feel now, you are attune enough to yourself to know what you're . . . You know, [00:53:19] so you probably would need less readings because you're paying attention to your energy and how you're feeling and what you're doing and the effort and the payoff. Is that true or not true? ANDREW: That's true. [00:53:35] Trueish. I mean, I think that there are always practical considerations that are difficult, right? You know? [00:53:50] Dealing, dealing with insurance companies after having had a fire. It's like, man, nobody wants to insure you, right? It's like, it's difficult. And so, there are . . . For me, there are always practical questions, [00:54:05] and, you know, questions along the lines of, is there anything that I can do to make this better, to make it happen, especially because I have a very strong practical magical practice, right? You know, so there are those kinds of questions. [00:54:20] But really the question that I ask more often than not, these days, is either something along the lines of like well, should I run my Tarot de Marseilles class in January, or should I run my other course, [00:54:35] right? Like very sort of strategic business kind of things? Or a question, the question I go back to most of the time, is how do I show up fully today? How do [00:54:50] I show up fully in this situation? Right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And you know, and for me, that's a question that I've kind of come to answer by a sort of multi-step open-ended [00:55:07] kind of practice. Right? Like I don't, I no longer just kind of, if I'm going to read cards for myself in that way, I don't like just draw a card or two cards for the answer. I'll usually draw start with drawing a playing card, [00:55:22] checking in with my guides and ancestors, drawing three trumps from the, from a Marseilles deck, reading those in light of what's already been set in motion in the early part of the reading, and then [00:55:38] drawing a card from my Land of the Sacred Self Oracle that I self-published. And doing some writing on that, and then usually photographing that, and then drawing, doing, drawing back into it [00:55:53] and embellishing it further, and then at some point, that feels finished. So, like that's the, the process that I do when I do that stuff. And you know, it's all, if you, if people were to look at it, which I'm not [00:56:08] going to share it anywhere. But anyway, if people were to look at it, you'd be like, wow. I don't know what sense this makes a lot of time because a lot of it is very nonlinear and very, you know, like a lot of channeled reading, writing, you know, like, [00:56:23] and so on. But at the end of the process, I'm like, “Oh, now, now I'm aligned for the day, and now I know how I stay aligned for the day. You know for this project or whatever.” Right? So . . . yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, well and yeah, [00:56:38] that sounds like a good process, and I think like, some, I've heard people, you know, say, “Oh, I can't read for myself.” And I think sometimes part of that is they don't read for themselves the way they read [00:56:53] for somebody else. Like they give themself short shrift. You know, they won't go through the whole process, just throw the cards, look at them, go, and then pick them up and put them away. You know, it's different. I think if you treat [00:57:08] yourself as if you were, how you would treat a client . . . ANDREW: For sure and I think if you're going to read for yourself around practical considerations, you just need to have a lot of discipline, right? You know? For me when I read for myself [00:57:23] around practical considerations, it's actually usually really short because I'm like, like, you know, it's whatever. The Tower card says, this is a horrible idea. Don't go down this road. It's like, it's like, it's the end of the conversation. Just stop [00:57:38] there, you know, because the more I talk about it, the more I might try and talk myself into it or think that I have agency where, where the Tower says it doesn't, you know? And so on and so on, right? So but for me, yeah, it's like, you know, there's a short list of [00:57:53] sort of core meaning that I would attribute to every card that if I want to read for myself, I'm going to hold hard to that no matter whether I like it or not, whether it even makes sense or not to me, and be like, “All right, the card says that [00:58:08] someone's going to really betray you here, 10 of Swords. It's like, well, all right, let's not go there then.” Well, so I'm going to go instead, “What else can I do?” You know? Yeah. BARBARA: I think that's important too when you especially, well, like your first practice was more of [00:58:23] an internal deeper kind of a reading. And now we're talking about practical readings, and I think one of the reasons we want to do a practical reading is because we want to bypass our head, because we keep thinking [00:58:38] about it, and we keep justifying, and we know we're justifying, or making excuses and we know we're making excuses. So, you do this reading and keep it short and hold yourself to it. It helps bypass all of that, but you're right, if you start thinking about it, like, well, the Tower [00:58:53] can be, you know, how we can sometimes spin things. ANDREW: Carl Jung thinks of buildings as being a symbol of our ego and our persona in the world, maybe I just need to change the way I approach this, so that I can have a different experience of this and then I can learn [00:59:08] and grow and blah blah blah. It's like, no. Still gonna get hit by the lightning. Definitely don't like that. Thank you, but I'll pass. Right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: For sure.  BARBARA: Or someone wants to know, "Oh, I started dating someone, how is it going to go?" Five of Wands. "Oh, it's going to be so exciting [00:59:23] and fun!" And you know, it's like, one of the exercises I would give beginner students is, for reading for themselves, is okay, before you do a reading, the question, you know your question, and you know what answer [00:59:38] you want.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Go through the deck and just like, if you don't already have the meanings, like you have, for reading for yourself. This is new people, go through the deck and you know pull out the cards that you think would make that answer.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And then [00:59:53] shuffle your cards--and make note of them--shuffle your cards again, and then do your reading, and then if, you know, the Two of Cups, Ten of Cups, whatever doesn't come up. It can be like, "Well, okay. This isn't one of the answer cards. [01:00:08] This is a different answer." And it's a way to kind of discipline, discipline yourself, which is what you said when we started. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. No, exactly. Well. It's like, you know, I think that that approach is, you know, really [01:00:23] helpful for a lot of things, right? And especially for, you know, I mean not everybody reads for, for everything, you know, but I do. Right? Like I don't really have limits around what I'll read for, you know, for [01:00:38] the most part. So, like, if someone's like, well, am I going to get pregnant, right? Am I going to conceive? Well, I have a short, short list of cards that answer yes to that, right? There's only like three or four of them, [01:00:53] depending on the deck I'm working with, and if those cards don't show up, then I'm going to say, "The cards don't give you a solid yes." Right? And you know, the same with the question people are like, “Am I cursed?” I'm like, “It happens, magic is real. I believe [01:01:08] it,” you know. But there's, there's only a couple of cards in the deck that are going to answer affirmatively to, to me around that, and my expectation is that the mystery will surface those cards, so that the answer feels unequivocal, [01:01:24] you know. And I think that that's also a practice that is a bit hair-raising when people are starting, but I think that, you know, as we talk about it, I realize how many different kinds of questions I have a very short list of [01:01:39] cards that I would take as a solid answer to, you know, and I think that that's a really helpful way maybe to, to avoid feeling ambiguous about the readings that you're giving, right? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: So, yeah. [01:01:56] All right. Well, maybe, is there something else you want to add? I see you looking like you're gonna . . . BARBARA: Yes, I, there's one, like, I kind of said that I was going to be studying fate and destiny in the coming year. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: The other thing I'm [01:02:11] looking forward to is, over this past year, I've heard a couple of people refer to mythic living, like I should know what that means, and I don't, and I've asked a couple of people, you know, "Well, what do you mean by [01:02:26] that?" And I haven't gotten, I was, kept getting this idea that it was like, where you just live really big and loud and you know, mythically legendary, you know? And, but . . . I read something a couple weeks ago that made me think okay, you got that wrong, obviously, [01:02:42] and what this blog said was, it's when you understand the mythic rhythms of life, things that happen, the mythic, well, [01:02:57] anyways, you know what I mean. And when you understand them and when you can learn where you are in your life in terms of a mythic story, or cycle, then you can learn how to live within that. [01:03:12] Have you ever heard anything like that? What do you think of that?  ANDREW: I mean, isn't that how people feel about the hero's journey? BARBARA: It's the whole, yes, exactly. Okay. So similar thing. ANDREW: I think, right. I mean, I've my [01:03:27] own ideas about mythic stuff, but we'll save that for later, for another time, maybe. But I think that, I think that [01:03:42] the idea of sort of myths as true guides to our, to our lives, or as, you know, true models of experience, in the same way that I think of this sort of way in [01:03:57] which people sometimes default to astrology, and sometimes default to other ways of creating definition. I think they're, I think that there is value in them, and there are [01:04:12] values in those stories, you know?  And as a person who practices a religion that is based on, we could say, has a huge swath of it that's based on stories, right? You know, nobody, nobody [01:04:27] in my tradition would tell you . . . Well, no, nobody with a solid grounding in reality would tell you that, you know, as a child of Shango, I'm gonna live the life, live the myths of Shango, [01:04:42] right? You know? And you know, and I think that this idea that, that sort of these myths define the arc of human experience, right? I think [01:04:57] it's pretty questionable. I think that there is truth in it, right? You know, like the, the myth of Percival, which is so popular amongst, you know, Western initiatory stuff, [01:05:12] right? It's like, there are pieces of that that are true, and valuable, and you see most people encounter in some way, right? Like, you know, once the, once the hero decides to go on their journey, something arises to distract them, right? You know, [01:05:27] Kundria arrives to distract Percival from pursuing whatever, right? But the idea that every myth ends with, you know, “Oh, you are the person you were searching for all along and you had it with you the whole time.” [01:05:42] I don't think that's true at all. Right? I see lots of people whose lives are, are not that way, right? And, you know, and yet, the, the, questions that arise from looking at that myth a bit, like what would, what would distract you from your deeper commitment? [01:05:57] Right? In what ways are you not already acknowledging your gifts, you know? And so on, right?  Like those, those are powerful questions, but as sort of models for, for sort of promoting everybody's [01:06:12] experience, you know, it's like the hero's journey. I'm just kind of like, I'm like, "Yeah, maybe, for some people, some of the time," but then we're back to this question of like, agency and free will and how much does our expectation that is the course that we're going to [01:06:27] continue on then shape the course that we live afterwards, right? And I think that, yeah, so. But yeah, so I think that that's a really mixed bag [01:06:42] of things, you know, for me, you know? And probably because I did not come out of tarot from that sort of Angeles Aryan, sort of archetypes of people, you know, archetypes are what's behind [01:06:57] tarot piece, but came from a sort of practical magical and sort of ceremonial background into this stuff and then into a non-Western tradition religiously. I always look at those pieces, and I'm kind of like, eh? [01:07:12] I get it. I see it. Like I can see how you see it. And I can see how it's there, but it's like, what it's defined as, seems overstated or, or incomplete in some way to me, [01:07:27] in a way that I've never been able to reconcile it, or kind of close the loop on it. So yeah. BARBARA: I guess that's why there's a lot of different approaches because . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Some work for some people and some work for others [01:07:42]. ANDREW: Exactly, right, you know, and it's, of course, it's not to say that, you know, if people find value in that, fantastic, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, please, please don't write me, I don't need to have this conversation again. I've had it so many times, you know? But no, not [01:07:57] that, not talking, talking about you, but like, but yeah, it's like I've had many people, very smart people try to convince me. Or want to have conversations around convincing me about it. Like it's not my jam. I just, I just don't, I just don't jive with it, so we could just go [01:08:12] talk about other things instead, right? BARBARA: Right, or yeah, because that's not a really interesting conversation, because trying to convince someone who has, especially someone who has a perfectly workable system, you know, and they're not like [01:08:27] asking for advice or looking for a new way to live or think. It's just evangelizing, and why do you, why . . . Just because you believe something is true, the, the other person doesn't have to think it's true. [01:08:42] That doesn't diminish its worth for you. You know, you don't, everyone doesn't have to believe the same thing. ANDREW: Exactly.  BARBARA: You know, what might be more interesting would be to say, "Well, let's talk about what I think and what you think and see if there are any parallels and maybe talk about where they [01:08:57] differ. And isn't that interesting? And why is that?" You know. ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah. I'm curious to hear what your explorations of mythicness deliver to you, bring to you, over time, though, for sure. BARBARA: I [01:09:12] know. I have a feeling that next year, next fall, our conversation is going to be super interesting. I mean not that these haven't been, but these have been personal, and hard, and important, and [01:09:28] valuable, but I think for next fall, we might, our listeners might get a treat of something different. ANDREW: Or maybe they'll just get a lovely, what are we at now, fourth helping, fifth helping of, you know, [01:09:43] whatever this is. But yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll, time will tell. BARBARA: That's right. ANDREW: Well, thanks for making time again, Barbara. I appreciate it as always. BARBARA: I do too. I love these conversations. ANDREW: Me too!  

How Bean Ninjas CEO Meryl Johnston Built A Global Virtual Powerhouse Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Matt and Barbara speak to Meryl Johnston, the CEO, and founder of Bean Ninjas. Some of the areas covered include: Meryl's journey from a consulting firm to global, systemized, online business and the perils behind bringing in virtual contractors before you have your processes in place.   Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode: 1:20 Meryl Johnson the founder and CEO of Bean Ninjas 3:38 The power of systems and processes 4:29 Building a business to scale 8:38 Key Tools or Methods to manage your team 10:24 Wrike 12:06 Systems, tools, and Processes as the front driver 13:30 The Strength of the machine 14:01 Team Meetings 17:07 Concept of the Lunch and Learn 18:02 Virtual Christmas Celebration 20:43 Local knowledge vs Overseas Knowledge 24:39 Training Guide Procedures 29:27 Highlights of the show 33:14 External Leverage 35:09 Top 3 Learnings working with Virtual Team Intro: Do you find yourself running out of time to accomplish your work, are you spending time doing things that you're not that good at? There are effective ways to outsource these tasks so you can focus on your business. This is the Virtual Success Show, we bring the inside scoop on outsourcing success for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. And now here are your hosts Matt Malouf and Barbara Turley. Barbara Turley: Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of the Virtual Success Show. I'm joined by my co-host Matt Malouf as always. Hey Matt. Matt Malouf: Hey Barb. How are you? Barbara: I'm good. And you? Matt: I'm excellent. Yeah, I'm enjoying a sunny day here in Sydney after what's been a very, very wet sort of week down here. Barbara: Yes, unusually so for Sydney. But the Sydney sun is back, which is awesome. Matt: It is, it is. Barbara: Yeah. So we're back, guys, doing one of our interview series, which we love doing. We love when we find interesting business owners that are building virtual teams and can really add value to our listeners and to ask quite frankly about how they're doing things. So today's guest is someone who's become somewhat of a friend of mine, Meryl Johnston, and she is the founder and CEO of Bean Ninjas, which is a bookkeeping, financial reporting, and education business. She's also a chartered accountant. She's host up her own podcast, the Bean Ninjas podcast, which I definitely can recommend listening to. And she's also a big surfer living on the Gold Coast, the beautiful Gold Coast here in Australia. So welcome to the show Meryl. Meryl Johnson the founder and CEO of Bean Ninjas Meryl Johnston: Hi Barb. Hi Matt. Great to be here. Barbara: Good. So listen, why don't you just give us the quick rundown, Bean Ninjas. What is it? Why did you start it? Meryl: Well, Bean Ninjas is a bookkeeping and financial recording business, and before starting Bean Ninjas, I was running a consulting firm, not very cleverly named MCJ Consulting, my initials. And I was doing project accounting work and quite quickly found the business difficult to scale. It was hard from a cash flow perspective, with project work being lumpy, and it was difficult to build a team. And I looked at some other business models out there and the kind of business that I wanted to build, which was recurring revenue, it would have processes so I could scale the business and I wanted it to have global potential. And then I looked at my skill set, which is accounting and thought about how I could marry the two together, my skill set and the kind of business that I wanted. And that's where Bean Ninjas was born. I founded the business with a co-founder who had a similar vision of creating a global business and a business that we could run from anywhere in the world. So that was where it started.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Now, Barbara, it's really good to see you. I heard that you were in the hospital.Barbara: Yes, I was. I got sick in August last year and luckily I was with my students and the lady was a nurse. She and her husband drove me to the hospital. I was doubled over. I was clutching my stomach. I had so much pain, a burning sensation in my chest. I didn't know what was happening. They took me to the hospital and they did some tests and they said, “ Well, you have gallstones.”Todd: Gallstones. What exactly are gallstones?Barbara: Well, next to your stomach, there is an organ called the gall bladder and the job of this organ is to hold some liquid which comes out of your liver and this liquid stays in your gallbladder and is saved for when it' needed, and when you eat something that contains fat or oil, the bile from the gallbladder is squirted out and goes into, perhaps your stomach or your intestine. I'm not sure which, and there it does something to help you to cope with the oil. Perhaps it binds with the oil or makes it easier for your body to get rid of it – to eliminate it.Todd: OK, so when you have these gallstones, do they give you medicine? Do they remove them through surgery?Barbara: There are a couple of different things to do. My gallbladder was working too hard because I was eating an unhealthy diet and not exercising enough, so inside my gallbladder, there were too big hard stones. Some people can have surgery to remove them. Some people have laser surgery, where the doctors aim a laser at the stones and shatter them, but the small pieces are still there and they have to be passed out of the body naturally and that is still a problem. With me, my gallbladder was inflamed and they looked at it and said, “No, it has to come out” so they took out the whole thing: the gallbladder and the two stones inside it. So now I have no gallbladder, so if I eat oily food… well, I have no gallbladder to contain the bile from my liver which I need to process the oil.Todd: Right, right.Barbara: So, if I eat anything with oil I feel sick, and I usually… yeah, it's not good. So, I avoid oil, which is healthier anyway.Todd: Well, I'm just glad that you're OK. That sound pretty awful.Barbara: Oh, well, I'm fit now. Yeah, everything's OK.Todd: Oh, good to hear.

How To Successfully Recruit The Right VA Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Matt and Barbara talk about the importance of recruiting the right virtual assistant for your business.   During this episode, we talk about the in-depth process you need to have when recruiting from Overseas.   Some of the areas covered include: Barbara's personal recruiting process Why taking your time during the hiring process pays off in the long run Why you need to define the culture of your business so you can identify the characters that will thrive in your workspace Why it's important to have strong systems in place for your staff Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode: 1.17 - Recruiting the right VA 3.23 - Biggest fears around hiring an offshore VA 4.05 - Barbara's personal recruitment process 5.18 - Steps to successful recruiting 14.58 -Why a trial period is so important 15.43 - Hiring an expert to recruit your staff 18.02 - staff character and work culture 25.27 - Local insights into what's important when hiring a VA from the Philippines 27.10 - Recapping of the major steps 27.59 - Wrapping up Intro:  Do you find yourself running out of time to accomplish your work? Are you spending time doing things that you're not that good at? There are effective ways to outsource these tasks, so you can focus on your business. This is the Virtual Success Show. We bring the inside scoop on outsourcing success for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs, and now, here are your hosts, Matt Malouf and Barbara Turley. Barbara Turley:  Hey, everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show where I'm joined by my co-host Matt Malouf. Hey, Matt, how's it going? Matt Malouf:  Excellent, Barb. And yourself? Barbara: I'm good. Now, where in the world are you today? Because I know you're traveling a bit at the moment. Matt:  I am. I'm in the beautiful sunshine coast of Queensland ... Barbara: And is the ... Matt: ... up in Noosa. Barbara: The weather? Matt: It is, it is. I went for a beautiful walk this morning along the river there and it's balmy and humid as Queensland is this time of year. Recruitment Barbara:  Yeah, Noosa is an amazing spot. Well, I'm based in my hometown of Sydney at the moment so it's kind of wet and windy here today. Today's show look, I'm really excited about today show because it's a topic that's close to my heart and it is we're gonna tackle the difficulty in getting offshoring right and specifically the difficulty about recruiting because that is literally the first step to get right. I know I hear it all the time with clients coming to our business who sort of say, look I tried, I failed, you know, how are you different? That's kinda what they ... They're burnt out from the experience of trying this and I know, Matt, you've had some stories like this as well. Matt:  Even just yesterday. A lot of the business coaching that I do we're obviously trying to help people grow their business but also increase their margins and their profits and so using Virtual assistants is one great way of doing that. Getting great people to do things. Yesterday I'm in a meeting and as soon as I broached the subject the callers like, "Stop." He actually put his hand up, stop. I've done it, it doesn't work for me. I looked at him and I was like, this guys been in business for a long time. I'm like, "What do you mean it doesn't? I've tried it, I've tried it, I've heard it all, I've read the books, it doesn't work for me." Barbara: Absolutely, yeah. Matt: I think what we want to really get out of this episode today is to dispel this myth because Barb and I have a belief that it can work for everyone. It's simple but not easy. Barbara: Yes, and I guess what I really want to show today, is you know, I'm running ... We've got almost 120 employees now in the Philippines and I can t...

I Don't Know What My VA is Doing Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Barbara and Matt talk to listeners about a common anxiety felt by many business owners who work with VAs - “I don't know what my Virtual Assistant is doing” – and the strategies they can put in place to ensure they are always across tasks that their VA is working on.   During this episode, we take a look at the importance of communication and the setting of clear expectations within your team, to ensure that business owners and their VAs always know what each other is up to.   Some of the areas covered include: The importance of managing your team and flow of work Set clear expectations around what the deliverables are of each task How important project management tools are in keeping communication open and transparent Building solid systems within your business and ensuring you have the right systems and processes in place for your team Let us know in the comments below what your key takeout has been from this episode or why not join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode: 01:36 - “What is my VA working on?” 02:17 - How do I manage my VA? 02:45 - Set clear expectations 03:57 - Use project management tools 05:50 - Keep communication open 06:58 - Set clear deliverables 08:09 - Build a solid system 10:58 - Have I got the right systems and processes in place? 15:15 - Working within your ‘genius' 17:08 - Refining your systems and processes 20:58 - Wrapping things up Barbara Turley:  Hey everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show where I'm joined by my fabulous co-host, Matt Malouf. Matt, how is it going? Matt Malouf:  Excellent, Barb. How are you today? Barbara:  I'm good. Thank you. Loving doing this show as always. I'm always amazed of how many times we think we have no more topics to cover. Then, we go, "What about this question?" So many things to talk about. Matt: Absolutely, absolutely. We would come up with a list of I think half a dozen in the prep for this show. Barbara:  Exactly. I know. So, guys, what are the things we're going to talk about today on today's show? It's a very simple topic, but it's one I actually see quite a bit not just with clients, but people online talking about VAs, and the question that I get sometimes is... It's not really a question. More of an observation or a fear. "I don't know what my VA is working on," which is a tricky one. So, people feel a little bit almost disempowered because they feel like, "Well, I think my VA is working, but I don't actually know what they're doing." Now, Matt, is it just me, or do you hear anything similar in your coaching practice, right, your retreats, or any of your masterminds? “What is my VA working on?” Matt:  Yeah. It's very common. I hear, "I'm not clear or sure what they're doing," or it's, "How will I know if they're working all the time at their desk?" So, it's very, very common. Very common. Barbara:  Yes. Yes, and I think what happens is people start to feel, like I said, a bit disempowered, and then the fear comes in, and I even talked to our VAs about this actually. I say it's very important that you don't let yourself fall into this trap because the client in the back of their head won't be able to help themselves, but wonder, "What are they doing?" So, you got to try to be visible, and you got to try to be demonstrating what you're actually working on. How do I manage my VA? But at the same time, it does... I feel it comes back to the client and the way the client is managing their team and managing the flow of work that's going on in a business, which really is the responsibility of the owner or the person managing... You might have an operations person that's managing this. It's really their responsibility to know this kind of thing. So, Matt, what would you... As a coach, what's your take on this? What's your advice? Set clear expectations

Barbara and Andrew catch up on their 4th annual check in to discuss the state of the world. They talk about the way death has been a force in Barbara's life. How maybe being real is more important that being upbeat. The role of social media in both their lives. And Andrew's claiming of the term Magnificent Weirdo.  If you missed the previous interviews go check out episodes 44, 58, and 72 first.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Barbara can be found at her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book a reading or private lesson with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast, everybody. I am here today with Barbara Moore, and this is essentially our fourth annual check in and hang out. We started these conversations a number of years back, and just sort of fell into the habit of kind of following up and seeing where life has gotten to and what's going on. And you know, I think it's going to be an interesting episode because we're … For both of us, it's been a year of a lot of change, and, you know, a lot of transformation and [00:00:32] you know, so yeah, let's get to it.  Hey Barbara, what's going on? What's new?  BARBARA: (laughing) What's new … We have just celebrated our one-year anniversary in our new home. It's, like you said, been a year of a lot of change, you said transformation. I don't think that my stuff is actually in the transforming (laughs) [00:01:02] stage yet. It's still in the … Feels like it's still in the breaking down phase. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I really think it would be more the end of the transformation, like the butterfly stage by now, but that has not happened.  ANDREW: Uh-huh.  BARBARA: But I suppose, what's new? The biggest newest thing that's been kind of a theme this year for me has been death. Death has been new to me. I have not had a lot of death in my life. [00:01:34] And so, I've had a lot of it pretty close and intimate, really intimate, this year. In fact, the most intimate … wow, we're going to start right off with the big stuff … the most intimate connection with death on one level, I had just one week ago today. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And that was when …? Okay. So, the … how ... the place we live in is attached to a house on [00:02:04] property owned by a couple named Carol and Noel. I did mention them last year. And, and Noel died on Friday. And this is not unexpected. He was quite old, and was in hospice and dying for quite some time. And Carol knows that I have done a little bit of priestess work, little bit of ritual stuff. And so, the hospice caregiver was preparing Noel's [00:02:34] body. Oh, because they didn't take the body away to a mortuary or anything like that. They kept him at home, and—for a week—and he just went away on Thursday, and so he wasn't going to be embalmed or anything.  And so, the hospice caregiver asked, and Carol asked, if I would help prepare his body, which (laughs) was really freaky for me because I've never done anything [00:03:04] like that. I've never been a good, you know … Some people are good caregivers, you know, like if someone's sick, they're good at taking care of them and comforting and cleaning. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I've never been that. It's just not something that has been a strength for me. And, you know, but part of this whole year is doing things that scare me. And so, yeah, so I helped wash [00:03:34] him, and then we crumbled up lavender into some oil and anointed his whole body, and dressed him, and I … It's been a week and I still, I've told people I can't really talk about it yet, because I haven't fully processed what I think or feel about that situation, and even just talking about it, I can feel the fluttering in my chest, you know, like a sign of anxiety that [00:04:04] I haven't really finished processing that experience. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: But I guess we could say that that's really metaphoric for what this past year has been. I've been getting up close and personal with death in many forms and still sorting out my relationship with it. ANDREW: Death is one of those things that we don't … I mean, I consider [00:04:34] myself a person who's comparatively really comfortable with death. I'm very, you know, close and aware of death. You know, I mean, I've been through a lot of very close loss in my life, you know, my … Two of my brothers passing away, and, you know, the people that I've known passing away, and I think that … Death is always an uncomfortable companion. Even if you are, [00:05:04] relatively speaking, comfortable with it being around, you know, it's always … It's never, it's never entirely settled, and I think that, you know … Like grief, grief is never entirely settled, you know, it might be 20 years and some conjunction of things will kick some little pocket of it back up into the foreground again, you know. So. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah. I think what [00:05:35] has driven me for most of my life is making things, producing things, working, and I think whenever any kind of loss comes to me, into my life, I would just kind of pat it down and run over it and just keep going. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, like it's not affecting me. It happened. It's done, move on, move on, and this [00:06:05] year, the kinds of death have been really much larger, and I've been not working much. I mean, I've been doing my regular work like I explained in the last podcast. I did kind of have the year off, except for, you know, just the basic work, just keep feeding myself, but I've had a lot more downtime and quiet time, and it's almost like I needed training wheels to feel, [00:06:35] cause I'm not, I wasn't used to, what am I feeling? Even just even letting the feeling come to the surface, and then the next step, identifying it, and what you do with it, and how does it fit in with where you want to go with your life, or whatever, and cause I don't even know what order I should tell all the stories. But just this example of feeling the feelings associated with death, just met ... [00:07:05] my father also died. He died in September, and I just started … just like last night, actually. I started feeling the feelings of grief, you know, like, oh my God, I miss him so much, and you know, so it's been almost two months, and I … And it's just happening now, you know.  And my beloved [00:07:35] companion Whiskey, my golden retriever, died in June and I wasn't home to say goodbye to her. I was in Minnesota at the time. And you know, it took like a couple months for those feelings to come up. So, you know, I feel like even though I'm into my 50s, I have had little practice with this compared to most people my age. So, it has been real interesting.  Oh, and that [00:08:05] reminds me too, right before I moved, my friend Nancy and I were messing around with our cards and stuff, and she's like, “Well, let's pull a card and see, you know, what big theme you can expect from this move.” And she pulled the Death card, of course, and was like, “Oh, wow, this is going to change your life in more ways than you think!” And she pulled another card. And it was the Emperor. And she's like, you know, because I'm a very structured person, a very organized person. She's like, “It's going to really blow that part of you [00:08:35] to bits.” But what she couldn't have known, and of course hindsight is, you know … The Emperor, for a lot of people, is associated with a father figure, you know, so it's like “your father will die.” Okay, but again, it's all metaphor, and it's all tied together, and bigger themes, and then I was writing to one of my pen friends and I was giving her my new P.O. box number and she's like, “Oh, your P.O. box numbers add up to 13. It's a Death year for you.” I went, “Oh, wow. Okay.” So, [00:09:05] yeah.  ANDREW: Do you, do you follow the year card system? Are you ... For, you know, birth cards and year cards? Is that a thing for you?  BARBARA: I do ... My birth cards and the year cards, I don't, I do some years, and some years I don't. And I don't even know if I know what mine was. I didn't think I needed another one. Okay, I think I'll just ... The Death card wants to be my card this year. I think we'll just go with it. Of course, knowing ... You know, when you don't have a real [00:09:35] experience with it, it can feel like, “Ooh, it's exciting, things are going to change,” because in the past, in my life, when things have changed, it's always been like, good, and pretty easy, and exciting, and not involving all of this that we're having here. Yeah.  ANDREW: Well, you know, I think that death, death, death on all those levels is always such a complicated [00:10:07] companion, right? You know? I mean, coming to the endings of things is, you know, in some ways, a relief, especially for Noel. Right? I mean that's a, that's a relief, right? of that sort of, you know, slow movement across that line, you know? But the kind of change that it tends to bring isn't really, you know, it … Even if it's sudden, even if the change is sudden, [00:10:37] the energy of it sort of lingers, right? You know, like Crowley talks about the Death card as sort of … Sometimes it's the fall of the scythe and sometimes it's this, like, putrefaction, this slow breaking down and rotting of things, right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: And hang out and sort of watch elements of yourself or your life kind of decompose, right? Like we were talking about before we got on the line today, you know? It's like that black [00:11:07] phase, that nigredo phase, in alchemy, right? Where, you know, everything just starts to like, break down, and it's, you know, that's the long dark night of the soul time, right? Where all of a sudden, you're like, “I don't know where anything was going. I don't know what any of this means anymore. Does any of this matter?” Right?  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. The “does any of this matter?” has been a really strong push, or no, it's been a strong question in me this [00:11:37] year. You know, whenever I think of doing something or ... maybe I should take up a project, maybe I should get back to work, maybe I should do something, and like what, what's worth … What does it matter? ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And I really truly hope I don't stay in this space for much longer because it is not comfortable. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember when … In the months after my brothers died. And for those who don't know, two of my brothers passed [00:12:07] within six weeks of each other, it's about nine years ago now, and so it was … It was really intense the first time, and then it was just, double down, you know, sort of six weeks later. And you know, like, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Trying to, you know, like underst-, what does any of it even mean any more after this kind of situation? And all those kinds of questions. [00:12:37] And the thing I kind of kept coming back to was, Well, I've got to do something with my time regardless. So, what is it I want to do? (laughing) What is it ... Like, is it just eat a bucket of ice cream? That's fine too. Right? Is it, you know, something else? What is it? Cause I've got to do something with my time other than just sit and wonder if any of it means anything, you know? You know? You know? And so, that kind of ultimately, you [00:13:08] know, led me, led me out of most of it, you know, and back into sort of being in the world and being engaged in things, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, hopefully that will start happening with me. I have spent my fair share of time just laying on the bed, you know, being all angsty and eating ice cream and whatnot. [00:13:38] But I've also done, you know, I've been reading more fiction, nothing that's, you know, enlightening my mind or anything, and painting nothing worth showing anybody. I have stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff that is completely pointless, and I'm like, why am I doing this? It's the only thing I feel like doing so I'm doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: It feels really [00:14:08] indulgent in a weird way.  ANDREW: But isn't that part of what life is about? Like, I think that life as opposed to death is about indulgence, right? BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: No, maybe I'm too Sagittarian and too Jupitarian in that regard. But, you know, I think that life really is about indulging those things and you know, somewhat like the Fool, right? If we indulge those things, whatever meaning [00:14:38] there is will emerge over time. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, as opposed to this idea that I think that we often have that we can determine what the meaning is and then, you know, set on a course of embodying that. You know, I mean, it's like a thing that I think I said to you a long time ago, right? Like, you know, the road knows what star is yours, but you can't figure it out before you leave the house, right? You know? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Yeah.   BARBARA: Yeah. That's so contrary to the way I've lived [00:15:08] my life, and, as you're speaking those words again, I can feel the truth and beauty in them; at the same time, I feel part of myself resisting. ANDREW: Sure.  BARBARA: So. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, it is definitely the black phase of alchemy, man. This breaking down, this breaking down, like when I left social media, a lot of it was fueled by, I was shaping my self-image based [00:15:38] on how people on social media saw me or responded to me. And so, I wanted to not let that be driving how I was shaping myself. But, and so, taking that away, what's left? What's take what shaping myself is my work? It's always been my work. What am I doing? What am I putting out there? How much am I teaching, how many books am I publishing, how many decks am I creating, what am I doing? And [00:16:08] like you said, we can't always set the outcome and move toward it and embody it and manifest it. Sometimes it's just all something my friend Ricardo says, similar to what you said, is, you can't see the path in the woods until you're in the woods, you know? It's dark and you can't see it until you're there. And yeah, so, you know, what are all the [00:16:38] paintings? They're mostly portraits of strangers, people I don't know ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, just like stock images or, you know there are these sites that, where people post pictures for artists to use as reference ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And it's all I'm doing is painting these strangers. It's just very weird. ANDREW: Well, I think that's really interesting, cause you never really know what's gonna come back around. I have this painting on the wall in the shop that I did. [00:17:09] I don't even know how long ago. It has no date on it. Seven or eight years ago maybe? And it's of a ... it's of a red-wing blackbird. And you know, I I've been thinking about making art again and showing art. I was in a show recently and sort of thinking about sort of the idea of not just making sort of decks and stuff like that. I mean still making those things as well, but also making [00:17:39] art for the sake of making art to show and share, you know, and ... And I was looking at this painting which has been, you know, in my reading room the whole time since I made it, so for a long time now. And I was like ... And I was talking to an artist and talking about how inspired I was by Basquiat and their really large works that they painted. You know, [00:18:09] they had a showing here in Toronto awhile back and some of the paintings are like six-foot square and stuff like that. And I'm feeling this urge to work big, I'm like, but I don't really have space to work big, you know, all the excuses come in, and then like I was looking at this painting of a bird and I was thinking, and then immediately I was like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to photograph that, I'm going to blow it up, and then I'm going to paint on top of it and make it into a new painting through that process. And so, I [00:18:39] just got the prints, so they're two by two by three feet big, as opposed to like, five by eight or something like that, which the small thing is originally, and I'm going to mount it to some kind of board and then I'm going to start reworking on top of it, stuff like that. So, you just never know what comes back around, you know, like those strangers may emerge in some really new way or lead to something else, you know?  BARBARA: Are you going to use acrylics on top of that, or ... ? ANDREW: [00:19:10] I'm going to ... I'm going to use ... I have these acrylic markers. So, I'm going to use those. And I'm going to use ink, so I'm going to like go in and I want to do a mix of big scale stuff on it and really really super intimate things, like, you know, like the branch at the bird is sitting on because [00:19:40] it was painted small is essentially just a few very simple strokes of simple colors, right? But I'm going to go in embellish that, and then I'm going to go in and work with some varnish and stuff. So, some stuff will be really varnished and shiny from certain angles, and like I have a bunch of ideas about it. And then I feel like I can also feel there's some other birds like, “Hey, do me next. Do me next!” BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: So, you know, I feel like it's going to become a body of something, right? [00:20:10] But what that is, I don't really know, but you know, they've always been my companions, right? You know, I mean, I have this habit of I just go and follow the birds through the woods until they stop and then I realize where I need to be and stop and hang out with the Earth and that place and things like that, right? So, I have a very like strong connection to them. So, yeah. BARBARA: God, I can't wait to see. It sounds like it's going to be really really cool. I'm feeling excited for the process for you just hearing about it. ANDREW: Yeah. It's been [00:20:45] a long time since I ... since I had a sir purely process-driven thing and it's been a long time since I made ... Like I'm not even sure the last time I made a piece of art that wasn't for a deck, you know girls. It's been quite some time since I've since I did that. So. Yeah. Yeah.  BARBARA: I was just thinking, you know, we kind of led with the heavy stuff, which seems natural, it's been on my mind, [00:21:15] but I wonder maybe it wouldn't be nice to have a little interlude of a few happy or positive things that have already been kind of coming out of the ashes.  ANDREW: Yeah! BARBARA: Just so people don't get too depressed and quit listening. (laughs) But, you know, one of the things is ... I have two examples I'd love to share. The first is regarding my father's death. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, my father. He had [00:21:45] five kids: me and two sisters from my mom, and then my sister and brother from my stepmother. So there's five of us. And out of the five of us, three of us are really close, me and two of my sisters, and then the other two live in Michigan still and not quite as close. And one of the things my dad always said was he wished that we were all closer. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: That was super important to him and [00:22:15] he ... When things started getting bad for him in July, my siblings and I started a sibling text chain just so we could ... and just so we could keep up on stuff .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And all be fully informed. And throughout the process between July and October, that ... the time when he was like actively dying and in hospice and then planning the funeral and whatnot, my siblings and I worked [00:22:46] together, not like a well-oiled machine cause that sounds so cold, but like a bunch of dancers who know their steps and that complement each other. And so that was just really super amazing. And then when the funeral, which was in Michigan, all my siblings were already there and I was flying in, like the day before, and so I get to the Detroit airport and my [00:23:16] siblings text me and they're like, we're all here. Like, so it was just us five siblings, without spouses, without kids, without anything, just the five of us and I don't remember the last time the five of us were alone together and all in one place. So we stopped for a drink on the way home, and just you know, toasting dad and sharing stories, sharing intimate moments that we had with our dad that we'd never told anyone before .... ANDREW: Right. BARBARA:  You know and just got really really [00:23:46] close. And in that weekend of the funeral, it was like my dad's last gift to us. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: He made a situation where we all fell in love with each other. ANDREW: That's wonderful. BARBARA: It really, it really is wonderful. And you know, so I'm so grateful for that because we still have that text chain going and you know, at least once a week we're, you know, sharing things about our lives and you know, encouraging each other, so that was super awesome. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And [00:24:18] a real blessing. Then the other was, it's a little bit still close, but it was still like such a remarkable experience, was you know, like I said, Noel died. And so we kept him at home and people would come, you know, to just sit with him and be with people, you know, kind of like a wake kind of thing.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Oh, oh, but I do need to tell you this little local flavor thing, you know cause I do live here in this little tiny valley [00:24:48] and the technology is pretty sketchy. And you know, there's no like Potter Valley Facebook group or anything where people share what's going on. They do it the old-fashioned way. Like when the fires were happening this summer, there's this one kind of a park area where everyone who comes in and out of the valley drives past, and they had a big like a sandwich board sign where they had updates on the fire and a map of the evacuation areas and [00:25:18] stuff. You know, and that's how people found out stuff.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And so, for Noel's funeral, we wanted--or whatever. It wasn't really a funeral, we'll call it a funeral. We wanted to let people know, and so, Dylan and I made, you know, two really big cardboard signs saying, just saying, that Noel passed away. Community visiting at his home and the hours and hung one up at the corner store [00:25:48] and one on the corner of the street where we live. And that's how we communicated the information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And one time, you know, we were walking, Dylan and I were out walking out to visit the Pigs who live on the corner where the sign was, and you know a man was driving up the mountain. He stops and he's like, “Oh so, you know, Noel died.” Yeah, yeah, you know, just people talk more, it's more face-to-face or, very old school.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Well anyways, back [00:26:18] to the cool part was: when you're getting cremated, apparently, they give you this cardboard box that's, you know, you put the body in and so we left it out in a large area of the house with a bunch of art supplies and people decorated it.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: You know, so he ... By the time it was done, it was just like covered in pictures and symbols and Sufi prayers and all kinds of other prayers and blessings [00:26:48] and gratitude and things for him. So, you know, he was sent off to his, you know, final physical whatever before he got cremated in this, not a beautiful wooden brass box, but this cardboard, little, holy, humble, cardboard box decorated with all this love and amazement. It was just really different than anything I'd ever experienced before and just how loved he was by the community and it [00:27:19] was just a really really awesome experience. It's amazing.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Okay, happy interlude's done.  ANDREW: Happy interlude's done! (laughing) ANDREW: You know, I mean I guess, I think that there's something that I'm curious about. Now you're talking about social media again, right? You know? And like, are you going to go back? Do you ... is there anything [00:27:49] that you need from it? If you go back, how does it ... how does it impact your way of formulating your identity, you know and like those kinds of things? And I'm really, I'm really interested in this right now because .... Because in some ways, I feel like, you know, not, not recently but sort of historically, I've been somewhat absent from my social [00:28:19] media. You know, my social media has always been about the work or the things versus about me as a person. You know? And, not entirely but I mean, the podcast is definitely the place where, you know, I'm more visible, you know, or I'm more audible, I guess, as the case may be. And, you know, and I've been consciously changing that over the last while. You know? And changed [00:28:50] in part because of some conversations I had with, you know, Carrie and a few other people about stuff.  But mostly they're changing because I had this dream ... I often have dreams with Andy Warhol in them. And you know, he often comes to give me advice and tell me about stuff, and in some ways, my return to making art is also at his prompting. And the first dream that I [00:29:20] had, I was hanging out with Andy at his famous warehouse, you know, and we were there talking about making art and being seen and all of this kind of stuff. And he kind of like, we were talking, like, and he just stopped the conversation at one point in the middle of like something else, and he goes, “Andrew, you don't understand, you're a magnificent weirdo, and the world needs that right now. The world needs you to show everybody [00:29:50] your magnificent weirdness because that's what they're, what's important, and that's what's going to, you know, be significant about your work and your art and all of these things.” And I was like, in the dream I was like, “All right, Andy, I can do that. No problem,” right? And then we went on to talk about making art and other things and so on, right? And before we went on, though, he also turned around and sort of announced loudly to everyone's faces, you know, “Andrew's a magnificent weirdo, and you all should be paying attention to what he's doing,” right? [00:30:20] Something like that. And so, I've been thinking about Andy Warhol, and thinking about social media, and thinking about all of these kinds of things, and really endeavoring to sort of engage it on my own terms, you know, and really sort of share what I think is important or helpful. Helpful—helpful's the wrong word for it. Cause I'm not so interested in what's helpful. But share what [00:30:50] feels really real and what feels really particular to me, you know? And you know, I made this shirt up, that I started wearing around, that says “magnificent weirdo” on it.  BARBARA: Aw! ANDREW: Which I find particularly amusing. You know, it's kind of my talismanic t-shirt, so.  BARBARA: Oh! I love that! You ARE a magnificent weirdo. That's ... How wonderful to have Andy Warhol as your advisor and, well, maybe not muse, but your advisor ... (laughs) ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. [00:31:21] Does that mean you're starting to engage your social media more as ... more personally, then?  ANDREW: Yeah, definitely more personally. Definitely, I'm showing up there more. I'm sharing more of my life, you know, definitely, it's definitely a thing that's sort of continuing to emerge, you know, and especially as I'm getting into making art, like I don't know what these bird things are going to be, but I'm going [00:31:51] to share that process and journey along the way, you know. And, yeah, sharing more of my personal story and that kind of stuff. So, whereas in the past, I would sort of have tended to just leave stuff alone until it felt resolved and then share the resolved story of it, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I've always ... I haven't always successfully done but I've always tried. Like, I knew [00:32:21] this one teacher who was talking about, you know, public speaking, and writing, and you know, you and your audience and he said, “Don't work your shit out in front of your audience.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And you know, so I've always tried to not do that. You know, like these people aren't here to be my therapy session. They're here to learn what I learned, you know to get something helpful but--to use your word--but maybe [00:32:51] that's not the only way to think about sharing. Maybe the only purpose of sharing isn't only what you may deem as helpful or a nice clean process or technique that you can also use to change your life or fix your life or improve your life. Just sharing your unique and awesome weirdness might have value. I don't ... How would you say that? Because you said not [00:33:21] necessarily be helpful, cause you're not interested in that. So, what is the effect, then?  ANDREW: So, I mean, for me the effect is ... and you know, I think it'll be interesting what comes back for people who listen to this episode, right? You know, I think that what happens is there's this notion that people who are in positions like we're in, right? You know, like working as a [00:33:51] card reader, having a degree of success, having published and done other things, right? That somehow, we've all got our shit together and we don't struggle and nothing's difficult, you know, and I think that you know, sort of, “Wow, you know, I mean, Barbara Moore didn't just bounce right back after the death of her dad, I guess I can cut myself some slack.” Or, you know, look at that, we're all human, or you know, like these kinds of things, I think that that's [00:34:21] that that's part of it. And I also think that, particularly in the magnificent weirdo case, you know, I mean I was ... I hadn't realized that I used this phrase until someone started mirroring it back to me every time I used it, which is, you know, I would say, “Well, it's funny being me sometimes,” and then I would like say something [00:34:51] that was like, really really different about my life compared to many people's lives, right? And you know, and they were .... this person was always amused by it. But I started to realize that like, my, I don't see my life as a role model at all, but my life is super radically different than so many people's. You know? I mean, you know, we talked a little bit about but, before about this, I've mentioned before in the podcast, [00:35:21] I'm getting divorced right now, right? You know. Myself and Hanlon sort of both realized that you know, after quite a stretch of time, we've come to this place where what we want and who we've become is just different, you know? We really, you know, have a very different ... We have different goals and they don't really line up in ways that don't start to kind of curtail each other's possibilities, [00:35:51] right? Which is something that neither of us is really wanting to happen, right? You know. So, you know, so this year has been, has been, really, like the last six months has been working through that process and so on, right?  But, you know, I mean, I'm ... I've been in a non-monogamous relationship for, you know, the last three and a half, four years or something. And, you know, [00:36:21] before we had kids, almost the whole time of our relationship before that. So, I'm not ending this relationship and then figuring out who am I and how do I start dating again and you know, all of these kinds of things. You know, I mean, I have a relationship with, you know, this person, Sarah, who I've been seeing for two-and-a-half years, and there are other dates that I've gone on and other connections and so on. So, even just that: it's such a [00:36:51] different perspective than almost anybody that I know in that regard. Right? And doing what I do for a living, and you know, my religious practices, and like so many of the things that I do are just so radically different and, not that that is either a role model or the way in which people should see things or whatever, but I find that as I share those things, it's ... It [00:37:21] opens up people's ideas and sort of gives them permission to be like, huh? Well, what would I like to do that's maybe not the thing that's done. Or what would, you know, am I interested in these sort of ideas that I've been living? Do they serve me anymore? You know? Or maybe I've always wanted to be more this way or that way or whatever and so sort of seeing those things happen in other people's lives, you [00:37:51] know, to get ... It's a, it's a chance to inspire people not to be like me, but to be like themselves, right? So, yeah and again, not in a like, “I've got it figured out in this and that whatever way, cause it's not like that at all, right? But in a like, huh, you know, hang out with me as an invitation to be fully yourself, right? You know. [00:38:21] And for a lot of people, you know, that's not necessarily something that they get a lot of invitation to, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah! Right. Probably not nearly enough people get that invitation. There's so many other forces helping tell us who we should be and how to live. ANDREW: Right? Yeah. And internalized forces too, right? Like even if, even if they're not around us now, you know, those older voices, they can still kick around, right?  BARBARA: Oh, [00:38:51] and maybe even like instinctual survival impulses, you know, like to survive in the world you have to be successful and you have to be this .... ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, and so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot trying to box us in and very little inviting us out. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: But then we have an awesome weirdo to help us! ANDREW: (laughing) Yeah. BARBARA: (laughing) Yeah, I definitely get and [00:39:21] appreciate the value of that approach, and its budding up against one of my older, and perhaps, just society's older idea. You know, if someone's going to write a book or teach, you expect them, or this used to be true, or maybe it was just true for me and people like me, you expect them to be masters of what they're teaching. And therefore, we get all worked out and you [00:39:52] know, when a book comes out or a kit or a deck comes out, it's usually a really happy excited moment, like, “Oh, my thing has hit the world and it's out there.” And I didn't really have that same experience with one of my recent books, The Modern Guide to Energy Clearing? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Because, you know, I wrote the book based on my experiences. And now I'm, [00:40:22] this past year, I've been in a place where, I feel like, if I would have practiced everything I preached in that book, I'd be way further along than I am now, in terms of adjusting, and I don't know, not being in this black alchemical place. But it made me shy, maybe a little embarrassed, to go .... because there were a lot of publicity opportunities, unlike all my tarot stuff, [00:40:52] which there's hardly any, with this book there were invitations to radio shows and bookstores and all kinds of things, and I didn't do all of them. I did some of them because I felt like I owed it to the book and to my publisher. And you know, you have a responsibility when you're partnering with a publisher. It's not just your thing. It's their investment as well. And I think part of what made me really shy about it is cause I was in the midst of [00:41:23] “You guys, I have these tools, these techniques, these skills, this knowledge and I am too--I am too raw to do 'em.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And, it just felt almost hypocritical, and perhaps there needs to be another book, or maybe just an article that explains when you're doing energy work, sometimes you have to just let things sit and decompose and [00:41:53] you don't always get to control how fast that happens. So, yeah. ANDREW: I think that this idea of the ... like the wise teacher who's got their, all their stuff together. I think it's really a problem. I think it's really dishonest and [00:42:23] I think that it's why .... I think that it's one of the forces that allows so many problematic things to exist in a variety of communities, right? I think that it's one of the things that you know, at it ... at one of its worsts, right? encourages, you know, stuff that we could, you know, that the me too movement seeks to address, right? Because the perception is that these teachers [00:42:53] or leaders or community people or whatever, you know, in the spiritual communities have their stuff so together, right? And how could they not? And therefore this other person must be the problem? You know. I think it's one of the mechanisms which that happens under. And I think that ... I think that it sort of comes out of the sort of ... Well, I mean, I don't know where it originates from, but like in the ceremonial stuff in the more hierarchical [00:43:23] and initiatory things that I used to be involved in, in those ways. There was this notion that somehow, we would become perfect. Right? We would become enlightened. We would achieve these things. You know, but like, you know, my elders in, you know, in the Lukumí tradition, they're always like, “I'm just a person doing things. I'm doing my best, but like, I'm not perfect.” And there's no expectation to be perfect. [00:43:53] There's an expectation to cultivate character, to work on yourself, to you know, to grow, to be honest, and you know, and ideally to sort of continually seek out those things in yourself that you might need to work on in one way or another. But there's no expectation to sort of necessarily be perfect or, you know, be free of humanness, because it's not about transcendence, it's about living in this world, right? [00:44:23]  And I think that a lot of the, you know, especially the stuff that people might refer to as sort of the love and light movement, you know? It's so ... there's so much emphasis on sort of transcendence and so on that, you know, that we continually hear about these people whose humanness re-emerges or finally is seen in a certain way. And then ... and then what does that mean for those people, you know? From my point of view, It doesn't mean anything. Just like you being raw, of [00:44:53] course you're raw after all of these losses, right? Of course you are. Because you know, we shouldn't deny the reality or the shadow or you know, our suffering, because life is hard, but we can work at handling it easier, better, more consciously. You know? Maybe more consciously is the best way to frame it, but that doesn't mean that we're suddenly able to do everything, you know? I mean, I keep joking--and maybe it's not even a joke anymore, [00:45:23] maybe it's just a statement of what's going to happen. You know when the separation happens and we both have our own places and whatever. I'm like, I'm just gonna sleep for a week. It's going to  be like, the first week I'm just gonna be like, okay, shut everything off and just stay in bed and order pizzas and, you know, nap a lot and watch Netflix, cause, you know, I need some like nothing time. I need some recharging after all this work, you know? And I think that, you know, that's valid. [00:45:53] You know? That's not anti-spiritual. You know? Oh well. I feel like I'm ranting now so I'll stop. BARBARA: Yeah, no, you're preaching, preach it, brother! (laughing) I'm ... Congregation of one, right here!  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, no, it reminds me of a funny thing my ... one of my sisters would always say to me. Well, not always, it's happened a couple of times when I have like very obviously and [00:46:23] clearly fallen short of my own ideals and I'm all upset about it. And she's like, “I love it when this happens to you.” “What do you mean?” “Because you seem more human to me in these moments.” And this is my sister, you know, and I don't want any walls between her and I and I don't want to be on a higher place or on some transcendent plane or whatever. I [00:46:53] want to be with her. And so, when I screw up, that's when I'm with her more, at least on some level.  ANDREW: Yeah for sure. Well, it's, you know ... I've been doing ... For the last few years, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing. And you know, I've been sort of ramping back into it after being injured doing something else earlier in the year and climbing with some old friends, but some new climbing partners. And [00:47:23] the one, the guy was like, “It makes me so happy when I see you struggle on the wall. I'm sorry, but like usually you're just so graceful about it that I feel like it just looks so easy to you, and even though you come down and I can see that you're like panting cause it was so hard, you made it look so easy that it just makes me feel bad about myself. So, when you struggle it makes me feel better about myself!” And I'm like, that's fine. That's fair too. Right? Like, you know. I think that that's, that's part of it, right? [00:47:53] You know, when we get to see other people's humanity, then we get to see and make space for our own, in one way or another, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said the idea of the wise old teacher has some inherent problem. And maybe people in general, or maybe a new idea of the archetypal teacher is starting to emerge, or maybe a new facet of it, as we're starting [00:48:23] to explore, you know, or maybe things will change, maybe we'll expect different things from our teachers.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that what I expect of my teachers are really kind of two things. You know, you used the word mastery earlier, right? And I think that certainly knowledge, right? You know, I mean, I expect them to really deeply know what they're, like, I'm there to learn knowledge from [00:48:53] them. And, so that's one part of it. And then the other part is, you know, is like honest relationships, you know? And having honest relationships debate what's going on and what's going on with them and space for me to be honest about what's going on for me and so on. You know, I think that those things together are what I really expect, you know, and like, you know, it's I've had the chance to meet a lot [00:49:23] of people who, you know, in one way or other, people would see as sort of wise masters or whatever, you know? And they're lovely human beings, and they're still human beings. You know? And I think that that's never not going to be the case, right? You know? Yeah. BARBARA: Well, I told you earlier one of the things that I ... the only thing I did really to prepare for today's conversation was to [00:49:53] relisten to last year's podcast.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And, you were just ... sounded like you were just starting to explore something kind of new and interesting that I was excited to hear more about and now I'd love to hear more about the work with meteorites and moldavite.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that ... I think in some ways that [00:50:23] work was precipitation of the separation and divorce stuff, right? You know? I mean, I think that the idea of ... I mean, you know, it certainly wasn't consciously formulated, but, you know, the sort of idea of possibly, you know, I mean, the metaphor that I was working with of was like the idea of moving to [00:50:53] a bigger space, right? Leaving the planet and being an interstellar traveler and sort of engaging a bigger world, a variety of planets, you know, like this kind of idea, right? And I think that one of the things that that energy supported me through was and is through the idea of separating from my partner of 21 years, so that's definitely been a part of it.  I [00:51:23] also feel like this one's harder to talk about it because I feel like it's still underway, but I feel like the shop that I have, my work as a deck creator and author, and my work magically have all been sort of escalating into new places. And I feel like, [00:51:53] especially sort of going into next year, I'm going to be really living a completely different reality. And I imagine there's going to be a lot more space for my spiritual stuff in that newer reality. So, I think that that's a part of what's come of that transition.  And also, I think the other thing that I've sort of ... I'm [00:52:23] still working on sorting it out on a practical level, but there's this ... There's this software company, or company that makes a software called Basecamp, and they structure their company work around these eight-week cycles. So basically, they, one of the things that I heard about what they do is that they have a six-week [00:52:53] work cycle, one week of cleanup and planning the next work cycle, and then they take a week off. And I've been really sort of starting to think about how do I, in order to make the arts and the magic and the other things that I would want to be doing and feel called to be doing, I need more space, right? I need more time. And you know, so I've been, I also [00:53:23] feel like that changing notion of what my space and time is going to look like is also kind of come out of that work, right? This idea that I can be somehow in between things. You know? Now's the time where I'm on Mars doing Mars things, and now I'm back floating in the space of my in-between time, doing whatever that is, and then go back to the next place, and you know, and the metaphor doesn't entirely hold but I think the idea, you know, makes [00:53:53] sense, right? That, so it's really ... It's about allowing. Allowing for the space and letting go of all those sort of structures and ideas that sort of hinder that possibility and making space for that to happen, you know? And I mean, I'm not sure how long it's going to take for me to completely reorganize my life and work and other things into that, into that direction. You know, it might take another year or whatever. But it doesn't really matter. But I feel [00:54:23] like all of those pieces kind of come out of, come out of that work that started with the meteorites, you know, a year or so ago. BARBARA: Cool, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: Yeah, it's a work of shedding and becoming, right? You know, and I don't think that I was aware of the shedding of house. I was aware of the shedding at a sort of big picture level, but I wasn't aware of it as a sort of more personal [00:54:53] level when I started that. So, yeah. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, are you ... Do you think you're gonna find your way back to the to the wider world or do you think that you're ... I feel like you've been on a hermitage in the valley in the mountains. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, do you feel like that's something that's just going to continue? Or do you feel like it's time to shift that? BARBARA: That is a really good question, [00:55:23] really pertinent question at this point. I have just been starting to have, like, actual feelings about wanting to come out of my hermitage. It's super hard to do that cause it's my natural inclination. It's where I would be, always, if people who loved me weren't concerned about my mental and emotional health (laughs), but [00:55:55] living here, but like I said, it's so old school that it really feeds that. Like when I was in the cities and when I was involved in the wider world, it ... sometimes it felt like if it isn't seen by people on the Internet, it isn't real? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I'm sure that's just a me thing. I don't think it's like everybody has that feeling, but it was definitely affecting me like that. But there are, like there's [00:56:25] a women's circle here that meets every couple of weeks. It's, you know, not set, exactly, it's probably two or three weeks. And it's just some women who get together and just talk. And sometimes it's just casual talk, like book club level talk. And sometimes it's super deep. Then sometimes it's spiritual, sometimes it's scientific, and it's really great, but it's very small and it's just the valley, and it's not posted anywhere, and no one knows about it. It's not like [00:56:55] putting transcripts out for ... You know, it's not out there, it's just in, and like I said, just the cardboard signs, it's just all small and hidden away, kind of, and I really, it feels really safe, it feels really nice, it feels really authentic. It feels good to me. But, just over the past week or so, I have been like, I want to get out. I want to take a class. I want to [00:57:25] do something. But then I second-guess myself cause one of the things when I was in the midst of stuff this year, I kept wanting to sign up for a class or do this or do that and Dylan's like, “You know, you do have this tendency that whenever you're avoiding dealing with something, you want to take a class.” (laughs) You know, and ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Oh, okay, that makes sense. So now I'm in this space where I'm feeling this urge. Like I don't really know exactly what I want to do, but I want to get out of here. I want to have some [00:57:55] some regular contact with the outside world in some way. And I'm like, oh, does this mean I'm, you know, coming up against my emotions about my dad and haven't dealt with them yet and I'm trying to avoid that? So, yeah, I am feeling it. Yes. I think it's going to happen. I'm not exactly sure when or how it's going to happen. Earlier you had mentioned when you said you were gonna interview me and some people said to say hi and whatnot. It [00:58:25] make my heart really happy and also a little sad and very emotional. Many feelings were happening and it was like well, maybe I could be back on Facebook, and maybe I could just post about my life like I used to, and maybe that's okay. And I hadn't really been this close to thinking that in a couple of years. So.  And as far as like work, I mean I have still worked. Even though I said I [00:58:55] had the year off, I have written two books and designed a deck. So, it's not like I haven't been doing stuff to put out there, but I haven't been super publicity-oriented. I haven't been teaching. I've had invitations to workshops and to teach classes, which is more public, more connected with the world, and I keep turning them down. I still think I'm not interested in that. I think I did that a lot because it was expected. It was a natural part of this [00:59:25] work that you and I do, and I think I can be good at it. But I'm not sure if I love it. Yeah, so I'm still struggling about, you know, do I want to keep doing that or speaking at conferences or whatever. You know, especially these ones where it's like you have 50 minutes. Because I feel like a lot of the things I'm thinking about now .... They're not like, here's a simple technique that you can use. It's more like, here's a book [00:59:55] on what I thought about this one thing. You know, I just ...  So, yeah, but I would love to take an art class. I think that's what I would like. I think that's one thing my art is missing, is because I do love the process of it and that's more important than the outcome, but there's still something fulfilling about increasing your skill and being able to skillfully make what you're envisioning, you [01:00:25] know, so I would like that, and I think with that if I had some, you know, peers who are struggling as well as a teacher who's helping guide, that would probably be really good. So ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Of course, the nearest place to take art classes around here is an hour and a half away, but that's what happens when you live here in the mountains.  ANDREW: Right.  BARBARA: So.  ANDREW: I wonder if there are ... I wonder, are there are other artists in the community that you could hang out and have conversations with and so on, [01:00:55] you know? As somebody who went to art school, I'm always ... I'm cynical about art and art lessons and art school and formal training and all of those things because it basically, you know, in my experience, and my experience is very particular, but it basically just ruined all of that for me for a very long time, you know? So, but it depends on who you're working with and why, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah. [01:01:31] Well, and this wouldn't be like an art school or even a college art course, it's just workshops held at the local art store. You know. I don't know how that is, cause I've never taken, you know, an art school class. So I don't know. Yeah. That or, or, the other thing I'd been excited about when we moved here was the idea of pursuing interfaith ministry. I haven't ... I thought I'd be a year into those studies already, back in the days when I thought everything was going to be fine. And I haven't done anything [01:02:01] with it and I'm still thinking about that. I haven't really ... The only work ritual designing I've done this year was had to do with Carol and Noel, because they ... when Noel's end was getting really close, they were like, well, you know, most marriage ceremonies say, have the words “until death do us part,” and the marriage ceremony itself is a ritual. And yet when one of the partners dies, there's [01:02:31] no ritual, you know, to wrap it up because if it's till death do you part, then what then? What, you know? And how do we untie this bond that we've made or do we, and to what extent or whatever? So, you know, we talked about that for a while and you know, kind of came to grips with what they wanted to do with each other. And then, of course, the challenge, because Noel by this time was not always with us mentally, you know, so keeping it [01:03:01] short and simple, you know, just a little ceremony for them to both release each other and to reaffirm their eternal love, in whatever way is appropriate, in the next life, perhaps, because they believe in reincarnation, you know, so you tie up all their beliefs into this ritual and knowing that was really satisfying and fulfilling, you know, just like other ceremonies I have done, so that's still there too.   ANDREW: [01:03:31] Yeah. At some point in the next little bit, Hanlon and I are going to go back to the place where we, where we performed our marriage ceremony, because we basically married ourselves, right? And we're going to ... and we're going to release the relationship, right? You know, and we're going to ... You know, we have these relatively simple silver rings. We're going to break them and then we're going to take this over and we'll have them melted down into stuff for the kids. So we'll [01:04:01] make a pendant for each of the kids, and then they can have that, but it won't be the ring anymore, you know. And you know, we have some other things that are sort of remnants of the original ceremony and stuff like that, which we're going to, you know, release in one way or another at the place where we did the ceremony as a way of just basically being like, you know, all right, you know, we signed the papers, we've done whatever, but also, I release everything, like this is just gone now, you know? And I think that that [01:04:31] kind of stuff is really important, you know? And I think that around death, around this, around all of it. It's really important, right? That's why these rituals matter, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Good for you guys.  ANDREW: But first, it's also going to be winter, so it's out on the island in Toronto. It's gonna be very cold and it's not going to be inviting like when, you know, we got married in the summer and we went for a swim afterwards in the lake and stuff. I don't think any of that's going to be happening, but, yeah not really into hypothermia anyway. [01:05:01]   BARBARA: But, also, it's kind of symbolically significant.  ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, maybe that's a good place to wrap this up for today. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Pursue things that are symbolically significant, people, be human. BARBARA: (laughing) That's right! ANDREW: Be weirdos! Hang out! Have fun! Thanks. Thanks so much for following up. I know, I know that this is a challenging time and I think that, I think [01:05:31] that what I've come to think about social media and about these kinds of things like the podcast and so on is, there's so much cynicism about it all, you know, people are so cynical and hear so many things about how meaningless it is and so on, and yet, personally I have some tremendously deep connections with people that are fostered, born, supported, or whatever out of, you [01:06:01] know, out of these things, and I think that if we're able to show up there consciously, then it can become something quite different. If we, if we do that. Otherwise, yeah, sure, we can share cat memes till the cows come home and they're funny, but you know, I'm not sure how many of them I remember down the road, right? BARBARA: Exactly, exactly! ANDREW: For sure. So, in case you decide to start blogging again, or whatever, where should people come and follow you, Barbara?  BARBARA: Yeah. Okay. My website is still the same, tarotshaman.com. My email is on there, BarbaraMoore07@comcast.net. [01:06:37] Please feel free to write, reach out. I may not be on social media, but I still do like hearing people and connecting, and even, keep your eyes open, you never know. I might come back and join the land of the living, join the the Magnificent weirdness that ... ANDREW: Come down off the mountain, Barbara! Come back to the city. (laughing) BARBARA: Yes. Yes. Yes. Come hang out! We can have market days or something. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Awesome. BARBARA: [01:07:10] Well, thank you so much for having me. I am already looking forward to next year. ANDREW: Perfect! 

My Amazing Virtual Assistant Just Resigned …What Do I Do Now? Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Matt and Barbara discuss the reasons why business owners should never become dependent on any one person in any specific role and the common traps many fall into in this area. This episode focuses on some of the key areas that business owners need to stay on top of to ensure there is minimal impact to their business when that superstar VA leaves.   Some of the areas covered include:  The need for up-to-date and current systematisation and documentation Understanding that you need to slow down, in order to speed up your business It is the responsibility of the business owner to build and create the systems to ensure business success Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Resources mentioned in this show: The E-Myth by Michael Gerber   In this episode: 00:54 – My VA just resigned… 02:05 – Creating a turn key business 02:56 – You must document tasks 05:05 – Everybody is replaceable, including you 06:28 – Slow down to speed up 10:40 – Key takeaways 12:57 – Wrapping things up   Barbara:  Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show, where I'm joined by my co-host, Matt Malouf. Hi Matt, how's it going? Matt:  Well Barb, and yourself?   Barbara:  I'm really well, thank you. We've been flat out busy, both you and me in the last few weeks, up-leveling.   Matt:  Absolutely. And braving that it's very chilly here in Sydney today, but …   Barbara:  It is.   Matt:  But we've got a hot topic that we're going to be talking about. My VA just resigned…   Barbara:  Yes, definitely, definitely. One of the questions … I mean, I hear this quite a bit at Virtual Angel Hub, but I also see it online and I've heard it from people I've spoken to, who've had VAs or virtual teams before, what if my … Let's say you have an amazing VA, that just does epic work for you, is a massive asset to your business, and then they tell you that they're resigning for whatever reason, they may be going back to study, or whatever. They've announced you that they're resigning and you go into this total panic mode of, “Oh my god, what am I going to do now?” because this person is such a huge part of my business and knows all the processes and what we do.   And I find this really interesting, because in my business, I often move people around, I promote people. Thankfully nobody's ever really left me, but people often very quickly have to be moved into new roles, which means that I can't have a situation where they're indispensable in the previous role. So Matt, I'm really interested to talk to you about this as a business coach. How can people not fall into this trap of having somebody who is indispensable, I guess, in their business, and then you're left in chaos if they leave? Creating a turn key business Matt:  Yes. It was a really interesting conversation we were having just before the show, but I think that the person that put this best is probably Michael Gerber in The E-Myth, about you've got to create a turn key business. A business that can operate without you.   And I think that anytime in business, where knowledge is held with a person, without documented systems or processes, it's risky. And I know Barb, what I see, a lot of these business owners holding a lot of the IP in their head, and doing things just naturally in the natural course of business. Then they bring a team member on, and what they do is they download their brain into the team member's brain, without getting it all documented. So really what you're doing is transferring the risk, as opposed to de-risking the business. You must document tasks Barbara:  Yes. And you know what I find as well? Sometimes when a client comes to us, and we have a very high success rate as you know,

How Entrepreneur and Blogging Expert, Yaro Starak, Is Embracing ‘The Laptop Lifestyle' and How to Break Free From Emails in the Process Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest and online blogging expert, Yaro Starak,  takes us through how he has adopted what some may call ‘The Laptop Lifestyle' and how to break free from emails to focus on the things he loves. This episode is full of insights and tips from Yaro on how you can begin the process to ‘break free' from managing your emails and once mastered, can bring so much freedom and success to you as a business owner. Some of the areas covered include:Adopting The Laptop Lifestyle – having the right people on your team is paramount to making this happenThe importance of separating personal emails from business emailsHiring the right person to take on the task of your emailsThe value of setting up systems and processes for responding to emailsTips on training your new recruit Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group.  In this episode:02:05 – About Yaro03:22 – The laptop lifestyle04:15 – Having the right people on your team08:20 – Yaro's blog: Break free from emails13:10 – Steps to break free from emails13:25 – Separating personal from business emails14:35 – Hiring someone to take over your emails15:56 – Creating systems for dealing with emails19:07 – Emotions experienced when handing over emails22:35 – Key competencies needed to take care of emails25:48 – Tips on training your new recruit35:41 – Wrapping things up  Barbara:  Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show, where I'm joined by my co-host Matt Malouf. Matt, how are you? Matt:  I'm well Barbara, how are you? Barbara:  I'm good thanks. You must be having a good week. Finally, your book has come out. Your book has launched – The Stop Doing list. Matt:  It has. It's been really exciting over the last … it's been out for about a month now. Getting some really positive feedback. So really, really enjoying the journey. Barbara:  Yeah and probably a bit of rest time after all the push that was involved with pushing the book out. Matt:   Absolutely, absolutely. Barbara:  I can imagine. Matt:  There was a few things that I might stop doing years from now. Barbara:  Yeah. Well, I'm reading it at the moment and I'm thinking “Gosh, there's so many things I can still stop doing.” Anyway, one of the things that I do need to stop doing is my own email, and our guest today on the show, I'm very keen to talk to today's guest about this because he wrote a fantastic blog post about this a while ago which triggered me to bring him on the show. He's not only a friend of mine, but he's very big in the online marketing space online. I would call him sort of the King of people who would want to start a blog and figure out how on earth to get traffic to your blog. And get going with your blogging journey. Yaro Starak, welcome to the show. Matt:  Welcome Yaro. Yaro:  Thank you guys. Love to be here and looking forward to talking about something I don't really talk about on podcasts very much. Barbara:  Yes, obviously you would usually be interviewed about online marketing, getting started in blogging. Tell us a bit about your background, tell the listeners a bit more about your background just to get things going. About Yaro Yaro:  Yeah, you're quite correct. I do normally talk about blogging on I'd say, 95% of the podcast interviews I do. Primarily because that's what I teach and what I'm known for, and I've been blogging myself for, we're in year 12 now of blogging. I started in 2005, so it's been a career. I've pretty much had an online entrepreneurship career my entire adult life. It's been great to me. I have to really thank the Gods for being born in a time when I can use the internet as a way to run a business, and I've pretty much made my living entirely online.

How Women's Fitness & Nutrition Expert, Elle Kealy, Has Used a Virtual Assistant to Take Her Global Business To The Next Level Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest Elle Kealy, founder of Rebelle – an online women's fitness and nutrition coaching business – shares with listeners her experience of taking the plunge into the world of Virtual Assistants and how the experience of taking on a VA has been a liberating one. Elle takes us back to where it all began and how her decision to take her business online resulted in her engaging with a Virtual Assistant, which has resulted in her building a highly successful global business.   Some of the areas covered include: Don't wait till you are drowning before seeking help The importance of finding a VA that is well trained The value of having sound internal processes Why addressing issues with your VA as they arise is vital to business success How having a VA has allowed Elle to concentrate on the drivers of her business The need for an effective project management tool Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group.   Resources mentioned in this show: VSS Episode 17: How to Expand Your Business, Rather than Contract it, when Important Life Events or Business Goals Result in You Having to Take a Back Seat in the Day-to-Day Operation of Your Business The Four Hour Work Week Asana   In this episode: 01:42 – About Elle 03:10 – Taking the plunge into the VA world 05:18 – Challenges in the early days 09:37 – Challenges faced on-boarding a new VA 11:10 – Speak up when things aren't going well 12:06 – All processes are evolutionary 14:07 – More time to work on your business vision 15:44 – The importance of sound internal processes 18:40 – Communication is key 21:40 – The importance of using project management tools 24:38 – Wrapping things up     Barbara:  Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show. Today I am flying completely solo again, my co-host Matt Malouf is not going to be on this show today. He has been doing some epic work with some clients, and I am just doing a couple of shows by myself.   So it's Barbara Turley here and I'm delighted with the guest that we have on today because she is one of the longest standing members actually of Virtual Angel Hub, the company that I run where we recruit, train and manage VAs. Elle Kealy, she is the founder of Rebelle, which is an amazing online health and fitness coaching business for women. A beautiful platform that is just about to launch an on-demand video streaming platform, I guess, where we can find beautiful fitness and health strategies and tips online for ourselves as women. So Elle, welcome to the show. Elle:  Hi Barbara! Welcome, thank you so much for having me.   Barbara:  Yeah, and look, you know you're probably going to explain this a lot better than me, but I'm really keen first of all to kick off and, just tell us a little bit about the business and … You were raised up in Hong Kong, so tell us about …   Elle:  Yeah   Barbara:  …. tell us about, you know, your journey there and how this business started and where you're at now. About Elle   Elle:  Sure. So I'm actually originally from the UK if you can't guess from my accent.   Barbara:  Yes.   Elle:  Found myself living in Asia about 10 years ago, so, I've been here a while. But my business is actually a global business. I made the decision to go online because I am global, because I travel a lot, and now I run Rebelle, which is an online fitness and nutrition coaching business, exclusively for women, which I think you just mentioned.   Barbara:  Yeah.   Elle:  And you know the grand vision really for this business is to be able to support women from all over the globe, which is why we made the decision to launch an online business. In revolutionising,

The Evolution of The Virtual Success Show Podcast and How Barbara and Matt have Effectively ‘Fired' themselves from Podcast Management Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Barbara and Matt, share with you the evolution of the Virtual Success Show podcast and give us a behind the scenes look at how they have utilised their own virtual teams to bring the shows to life.  This episode focuses on the step-by-step process that Barbara and Matt followed to make their idea of co-hosting a podcast show, a reality.   Some of the areas covered include: Don't overthink an idea – sometimes it's best to adopt the approach of “Ready, Fire, Aim” Working out what the potential road blocks could be Finding the right person for the right task, in particular, specialist tasks Be aware that nailing a process takes time – they are not something you can create in one day Don't let yourself as the project or business owner be the bottleneck in the process.    Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group.   In this episode: 02:58 – How the Virtual Success Show started 04:36 – Ready, Fire, Aim 07:49 – Working out potential roadblocks 10:25 – Finding the right person for particular tasks 15:55 – How we fired ourselves from managing the podcast 17:09 – Great people, great process 18:09 – Nailing a process takes time 20:18 – It's up to YOU to set your team up for success 24:31 – The reason things work is because YOU make them work 24:52 – Wrapping things up Matt:  Welcome back, everybody to another show of the Virtual Success Show. I'm joined today by my co-host Barbara. How are you this morning Barb? Barbara:  Hey, Matt, really good. Enjoying the Sydney summer that's hit us all of a sudden the last few weeks. How are you?   Matt:  I'm excellent. Yeah, I'm enjoying this warmer weather, that's for sure. It's been awhile since we've been on the show together. You've had lots of wonderful things happening in your life with the new bub.   Barbara:  Yes, I have. I know I've been very busy with new baby, she's 3 1/2 months old now so we're “coming out of the fog,” as they say. She's very good, though. She's very good.   Matt:  Excellent. Excellent. You know, I'm really, really excited about today's show because, as we were talking about just before we started recording, the show we want to do for you all today is to share with you the evolution of the Virtual Success Show podcast and, actually, what's happened behind the scenes and how what we've experienced in utilising our virtual teams to bring this show to life. It was really interesting because we were just chatting a little bit pre-show talking about how things have just developed so well, particularly over the last six months and we wanted to share that in a show with you all because we believe there's absolute gold in what's going on.   Barbara:  Yeah, and I think I … Matt, I was saying to you and I want the listeners to hear this, that I was actually just … I was thinking about the show the other day, and I was thinking to myself, look, I don't even know … We just record, and I know it just goes in the Dropbox, and at this point I have no involvement, really, after that point and it just shows up bang on time on our iTunes account, on our website VirtualSuccessShow.com, at the promotions ground on social media, and it just all works like a well-oiled machine without us having to stress about it or even think about it. All we do is what we love, which is recording the show. I know some people listening are going to think, “How do I get to that point? How do I do that?” And that's exactly what we're going to talk about today on the show. Matt:  We wave our magic wand and it magically appears. Barbara:  Yeah, not quite, but yeah. I think both of us would probably say that having done this one, if we were to do another,

Setting up a Project – Part One: How To Set Your VA Up For Success When Executing a Day-to-Day or Small Scale Project Want the transcript? Download it here. In part one of our two-part special, we explore the world of project management and take a closer look at how to set up a project and what it really takes, from both you and your VA, to make those day-to-day and small scale projects really successful.  During this episode, Matt and Barbara step you through the methodologies that they themselves follow, and encourage and teach to others, when setting their VAs up with new, day-to-day or small scale projects. Some of the areas covered are: The importance of being clear in your own head around what the task or project is and what success looks likeTips on how to communicate your project goals clearly to your VAWhy it is crucial to have milestone check-in points throughout the project, not just a finish deadlineHow you can work with your VA to hold them accountable to check-in milestones and deadlines Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode:01:58- Steps for success in setting up a small project03:47 – Be clear on what you want06:27 – Clear communication is key10:18 – Case Study – sourcing notebooks for an event14:03 – A sense of control15:06 – “You can only expect what you inspect”15:40 – Overcoming project roadblocks17:35 – Having check-ins is not ‘micromanaging'18:28 – Wrapping things up  Matt: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another show of the Virtual Success Show. I'm joined with my wonderful co-host, Barbara Turley. Good morning, Barbara. Barbara: Hey, Matt. How are you? Matt: I'm well and yourself? Barbara: I'm really well. Thank you, thoroughly enjoying these shows that we're doing. Matt: They're lots of fun, aren't they? Barbara: Yeah, they are, lots of insights. Matt: Had a good week? Barbara: Yes, a bit of a crazy week for me. I'm mentoring new staff members. I'm actually putting some of our key people into more leadership positions at the moment, so there's obviously that transition from me directing them to them directing me, which is very interesting to do, actually. I've been enjoying it, but it takes time. Matt: Excellent. I'm really excited about today's show. Today is going to be part one of a two part series that Barbara and I were talking about in how to set up a project. As we were discussing just before the recording, we were saying that there's probably two distinct learnings here. One is around setting up a day-to-day task or a smaller task or project, and then there's the methodology behind setting up a larger project. What we want to do today in part one of this is just go through a framework and methodology on how to set up one of those day-to-day or smaller tasks or projects. Steps for success in setting up a small project Where this came from, just over the last few weeks, I've just noticed a lot of our clients that are working with VAs are having some challenges in like, “Well, I'm not sure if this VA thing is working for me.” A lot of it is that they're not communicating effectively enough upfront on what success looks like and how the VA needs to, effectively tick the boxes, in order to get the projects done. We thought it would be extremely valuable today to actually step you through the methodologies that Barbara and I use and that we encourage and teach, as part of today's show. Barbara: Yeah, I think Matt, I see that a lot with our clients, too. It's sometimes to get the simple things right. With hiring VAs, we often talk about the more complex things of how to get success with teams and various things, but the actual getting the simple bits right in the beginning, like what we're going to talk about today, can actually make or break your experience with a VA. All the other stuff then can augment that experience later, but if you get this stuff right in the beginning,

Communication – Part Two: Why Being Open To Giving And Receiving Effective And Constructive Feedback is Vital For Your Business And Personal Growth Want the transcript? Download it here. In episode two of our three-part special, we focus in on the area of giving and receiving effective feedback and why being open to this as a business owner is essential for the growth of your people and your business, as well as your own personal growth.   Giving constructive feedback can be quite a challenging experience, especially when the feedback may be somewhat negative and so a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with this, or may shy away from it completely. To help solve this, in this episode we share: Real-life case studies on the dos and don'ts of giving effective feedback. Why giving feedback doesn't necessarily have to be a horrible conversation. When done correctly, the feedback process can be collaborative and rewarding. How important it is to give feedback to your VA in order to refine systems and processes going forward. How the feedback process extends beyond that initial conversation. Why seeing you and your VA as a team is paramount to a successful working relationship. Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode: 03:18 – It's a two-way street 04:17 – Resistance as a result of fear 06:01 – Client case study – “Please don't tell my VA, but…” 06:46 – Lose-lose strategy 08:04 – Be clear with your feedback communication 09:48 – It's not a blame game 11:56 – Be mindful of cultural differences 13:13 – The use of video communication 14:00 – Feedback is more than one conversation 15:55 – Be willing to invest the time up front 17:43 – Some practical steps to put in place 20:03 – See yourselves as a team 21:14 – The mindset for success 22:36 – Being mindful of how you communicate your feedback 23:50 – Make your intentions clear 25:25 – Wrapping things up Barbara: Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of virtual success, where I'm joined by my fantastically insightful co-host, Matt. How are you, Matt? Matt: I'm well, Barb, how are you? Barbara: I say that because every week I just get so many insights from you that I've implemented into my business, so I'm stealing tips along the way, as we do these podcasts together. Matt: I'm writing, “Note to self, think of opening for Barb.” Barbara: Did I catch you off guard, there? Matt: My magnificent co-host. Barbara: Yes, you can use that for the next show. This is episode two, everyone, in our communication series. So if you haven't listened to the last episode, where we discussed that we were going to talk about this topic of communication – such a huge topic – that we've decided to split it into three shows. This is episode two, where we're going to deal with how to give effective feedback, with emphasis on the word effective, because giving feedback can be quite a challenging experience, especially when the feedback has negatives in it. To set this up, really, with communication, it's a three-part show that we're doing. In episode one, we discussed how to set up a task for success in the first place, and your communication from day one. It's really worth listening to that episode, if you haven't been there yet. Today, obviously, we're going to be talking about giving effective feedback, and then in episode three, coming up soon, we're going to talk about how to have the tough conversations which everybody shies away from, naturally but it's really important to know how to do that effectively. So Matt, I'm excited about today's one, yet again. Matt: Me too. I guess, just to set up today's show on providing effective feedback, I think, as a business owner, you need to be open to giving effective and constructive feedback, and receiving constructive feedback, as well. As you're learning the skill of this, it's really,

Why a Recurring Task list is the Ultimate Gamechanger with Virtual Teams Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, we dive into the nuts and bolts of the ‘recurring task list' concept and why it is such a game changer for those that want to achieve entrepreneurial freedom using virtual teams. This episode is jam packed full of actionable tips and tricks from Barbara on exactly why and how to build a rock solid recurring task list for your business …. So you can do more of the things you love. Why the recurring task list is THE ultimate game changer if you want to achieve entrepreneurial freedom Why keeping it simple and basic is the key to getting started with a rock solid recurring task list. Why delegating correctly actually gives you control rather than taking it away. How the belief that you can do it faster is the thing that's keeping you stuck in business. How to run multiple businesses and look super-human while doing very little yourself. Why this strategy will bring you more enjoyment, fulfillment and success in business. Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Today's Gift for listeners: Get ‘The Ultimate What to Outsource Guide' In this episode: 01:36 – Keeping it simple – The recurring task list 06:46 – Delegating correctly 08:15 – “…but I can do it faster myself” 10:00 – You can be superhuman 15:11 – Gain more enjoyment, fulfillment and success in business 18:23 – The ultimate ‘What to outsource' guide 19:24 – Wrapping things up Barbara: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Virtual Success where I am joined with my fantastic co-host, Matt Malouf Barbara: Matt how is it going? Matt: Well, how about yourself? Barbara: Fantastic, great this week. We've been punching out some amazing episodes this week and I have learnt so much myself, to be honest, from some of the people we've been interviewing and from you and the insights that we are sharing. Matt: It's always amazing! I love this time we spend together because even though we're sharing our own insights on what we've already learned, I find we learn so much along the way as well. It's a lot of fun, isn't it?! Barbara: Oh yeah, some of the insights that I have personally gained from some of the guests on the show and from you, have actually been shaping the business I am growing which is Virtual Angel Hub. You know, it's really helped me a lot. So I can only imagine how much it's helping those out there who are listening and maybe have just started with their first VA, you know just trying to get insights from people who've done it before. It's a constantly evolving thing. Matt: Absolutely, and lots of fun too. Keeping it simple – The recurring task list Barbara: Yes, I am excited about today's show because we are going to be talking about something that is very close to my heart and that I have spent a lot of time teaching our clients how to do. It's a concept called the ‘recurring task list'. It is something that is so pivotal that I feel, to get success with your virtual teams, it is something that I focus on a lot. It just alleviates a lot of the stress and pressure. The problem is though, that it is onerous to set up in the beginning and a lot of people avoid it. And when they avoid it, unfortunately, they can fall into massive holes later. So I always encourage people to really focus on this recurring task list as much as possible in the beginning, so you can have the freedom of using virtual teams later. Matt: So, I agree with you. I think this is probably one of the most critical areas for success with your virtual teams. So Barb, let's start with how did this evolve for you personally and then how it evolved with your clients. Barbara: Yes, that is a great question actually Matt, because I didn't wake up in the morning and decide, wow this is a great way to do it.