Podcast appearances and mentions of barbara it

On this episode, my guest is Barbara from No Name Kitchen, an independent movement working alongside the Balkans and the Mediterranean routes to promote humanitarian aid and political action for those who suffer the difficulties of extreme journeys and violent push-backs.Their actions include medical care, distributions of food and clothes, legal support and the denunciation of abuses at the borders, where thousands of human beings keep suffering violence, fatigue and sickness during their migratory processes.No Name Kitchen was born in Belgrade by winter 2017 when a group of volunteers started cooking in Belgrade alongside the thousands of people who were fending for themselves after the closure of the Hungarian frontier. Since then, NNK supports those who suffer the lack of safe and legal pathways, collecting testimonies and denouncing the systematic use of institutional violence at the borders.Show NotesNo Name Kitchen: What's in a Name?Social Media as a Tool for OrganizingThe KitcheneersIt's a Border Crisis, not a Migration CrisisWhy do People Seek Asylum in EuropeHow the EU is Breaking its Own LawsBorder Violence in the BalkansWhat are Pushbacks?The Silence of Big-Name NGOsFrom Hospitality to Hostility: A Story in KladusaMigrants as Puppets in Political WarsThe EU's Racist Immigration ActionsThe Lives of NNK's Guests After the BorderHomeworkNo Name Kitchen Website - Facebook - Instagram - TwitterVolunteer w/ No Name KitchenLatitude Adjustment Program Podcast episode w/ No Name KitchenTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Welcome, Barbara, to the End of Tourism Podcast. Thank you for joining us on behalf of No Name Kitchen. [00:00:07] Barbara: Thank you very much, Chris.[00:00:10] Chris: I'd love it if we could start off with you telling us where you find yourself today, both geographically and perhaps emotionally as well. What does the world look like for you?[00:00:21] Barbara: So, actually in a very interesting place because I am visiting one friend who was living with me in Bosnia, who's one of the persons that started with me and developed with me the project of No Name Kitchen in Bosnia. And so I'm visiting her that we didn't see her for the last four years because we're all the time very busy with our lives and with our different projects.So I'm here with her these days with plan to head to Croatia next week. Because the political context changed in the borders a little bit in the last month and now there are people on the move in that are passing through Rijeka, this one Croatian city, and I want to go to see the situation there.And then maybe, if I find the time, I will also head Kladusa and Bihac that are the border areas of Bosnia where I used to live in the past and where I spend a lot of time with my life there. [00:01:14] Chris: Mm. Interesting. And you're from Spain originally, is that correct? [00:01:18] Barbara: Yeah, I'm from Spain and normally I, I spend the most of the time in Spain in the last years because sometimes you need a break from the border. Emotionally I feel very well as well because I'm with my friend who is a brilliant person and I adore her. She was a perfect colleague you know, when you're at the border, the life is very tough. You see a lot of people suffering.But having her as a colleague, it was beautiful thing because we gave too much support to each other. [00:01:44] Chris: What a blessing. What a blessing. Mm. [00:01:47] Barbara: I was very lucky. [00:01:49] Chris: Well, I know that a lot of the work that No Name Kitchen does is based in the Balkans and as well in Ceuta in Spain. And we'll come to those regions momentarily.But I'd like to ask you first why no name Kitchen? Why a kitchen without a name? [00:02:07] Barbara: It's a very nice story because No Name Kitchen was born in a very informal way. You know, it is not actually an organization. It's a movement of people. And there are different organizations registered in different countries, but itself No Name Kitchen is a movement of people helping people. And in 2017, so let's make a little bit of context. In 2016, European Union sent money to Turkey to close the border of the Balkans. Yeah. So, in the beginning of 2017, in the winter, many people found themselves in Serbia. They were trying to migrate to go to some country in Europe, and then they found themselves in Serbia with the borders of European Union closed. And many people like were activists that went to Greece to help people on the move because they knew the situation or what was happening since 2015.You probably remember in 2015 all this amount of people that were going from Turkey to somewhere in Europe to ask for asylum, to seek international protection. So many people were in Greece helping. They got information that in the city center of Belgrade, which is the capital city of Serbia, they were like more than 1000 people, mainly from Afghanistan at that moment, many of them minors with no parents, living in the old train station in a very bad conditions. And the weather was horrible. It was super cold. It was probably one of the coldest winters of the last years. So they just went there. They got some food from an organization. They went there and they saw a horrible situation where no one of the big institutional organizations were helping.So then, they, with these posts that they had and asking for, help in social media, in their own social media, people start sending money and they start cooking right away. So, then they found this group of activists from many countries found themselves cooking every day and also together with people on the move and distributing food every day, every night.And then one day, they were like, this seems like an organization. We actually are kind of organization. And then one guy, one from Afghanistan, he wrote on the wall with a spray kitchen. No, because it's like, we have a kitchen, we have an organization, but we have no name. And then it's the same guy.He wrote "No Name," and then it was like, "No Name Kitchen." And it just stay like this. I think it's amazing. It's a very pure name and it really shows what is the way No Name Kitchen movement works. Its informal way of people cooperating and doing things together and helping each other.[00:04:31] Chris: And so in that context, it was a spontaneous organization of people, or how did they, I mean, obviously people heard about this, but how did they come to organize together? [00:04:41] Barbara: Social media is most instant thing, right? So, they opened this facebook profile, and then they say, what is going on. Some journalists started going there because these activists started talking about the situation. So, journalism and photojournalists went there and start showing the images. Mm-hmm. Oh, because it was really like minus 20 degrees and things like that. And people were living in the old train station and were using this wood from the old train station that has this liquid that is toxic.So it was pretty awful. And also at the same time, the activists start hearing all these stories about the pushbacks, which is, yeah, something I would keep denouncing, since then, that is when people try to enter European Union, police will push them back to Serbia with violence, which is totally illegal.So yeah, it was just people that were in Greece trying to help people in Greece. Finally, everybody knows everybody in this activist world, and if you don't know anyone, then you contact someone and then this person will tell you, "Ah, there is this group of people doing that."Maybe you're interested. And then with the Facebook, they started to ask for donations. They started to call for more people to go and help because the situation was a big emergency and needed more, more people. Some other people will give interviews on newspapers, for example. I was not there at the moment. I arrived some months later. And how I met No Name Kitchen is because one girl told her situation to one Spanish newspaper. I read this interview. I found like amazing what they're doing. I found them on the social media and I contacted No Name Kitchen. And then I head to Belgrade few months after. So yeah, spontaneously. [00:06:11] Chris: Within the kitchens themselves, if we can call it that, within the No Name Kitchens, what kind of people end up showing up?Are these people who are already a part of the No name Kitchen Network? Or are they local people as well? [00:06:24] Barbara: Well, we call ourselves "kitcheners." It's many different kind of people. Like really it's, it's people. People want to help. People are good, despite all the politics that surround us, there is a lot of beautiful people in this world, and they can be someone who is. Retired and he was a lawyer in his life and now he finished his work and he's 66 years old and he wants to do something and he goes to Serbia and he spends there two months. He can be someone that's 22 years old and is doing an internship for the university and decided instead of doing a very easy internship, they will come with us and face what is really the situation in Europe? It's a very wide movement of people. Some of them can come to the borders and we have a policy of minimum one month cause it makes everything easier for the work, right? But then also a kitchener is a person that is in his home or her hometown gathering beautiful clothes to send to the border so people can dress nicely and is a person that is making some event in her or his town to raise money to share, to send to the activities. And there's really a lot of people, because many people are good and many people wanna help. They understand we cannot really be living in this Europe that they are making for us, the politicians. No, we need a more human place to live. Yeah. It's true. As you mentioned before, that is more people from the south of Europe and Germany also, not so much from the north of Europe.[00:07:45] Chris: Speaking of the issues in the Balkans, in between Serbia and Turkey and Greece, of course. Perhaps for our listeners, if you could, perhaps there's a way of summarizing briefly the main issues that are arising in Southern Europe regarding these immigration crises.Why is this happening? What are the major positions of the European Union, of organizations like No Name Kitchen, and what does that dynamic look like? From a distance, [00:08:15] Barbara: So first, I wanted to tell you in No Name Kitchen we don't say "migration crisis" because there are not really so many people who are migrating.So the crisis has been it's a border crisis, a political crisis. It's a humanitarian crisis. There are not so many migrants. And if the borders will be open, all this mess will not be happening. Right? So we don't call it migration crisis. So, basically according to the European Union law, if you wanna apply for asylum, if you come from a country that is in war or a country with a dictatorship, that when you complain about something or you can see yourself in jail from a country in conflict or whatever or you're from LGBTQ++ if you wanna apply for asylum is very, very few chances that you can get any visa to travel to Europe. So imagine you're in Syria, you're in Afghanistan, you're in Iraq, you're in Morocco, and you wanna apply for asylum to come to Europe or to get any visa that will allow you to come to Europe by plane.It's very, very, very few chances that they will give you any visa to come. But the European Union law also says that if you're in the European Union soil and you apply for asylum and you apply for international protection, it's your right that the country where you are, it starts a procedure to see and to understand if you really need this protection, which long legal procedure.And it takes a while. Yeah. So that basically is one of the main reasons why people are seeing themselves crossing borders in irregular manners and seeing themselves risking their lives as it just happened now from Libya, this shipwreck in Greece. So people are coming from Libya to Italy and now.A lot of people have died and others are in centers in Greece now. So this is the main point why people will cross the borders in irregular manners. But then there is a problem and it's like European Union is not following its own rules. So then when a person arrives in, for example, let's say Greece, let's say Bulgaria, I say this because they are more in the south, let's say Croatia or Hungary, countries that are bordered with other their countries, the people arrived there and then when they tried to apply for asylum, the most of common thing that can happen to them. And what we've been denouncing since the very beginning because people were explaining to us and we saw it was something very systematically. And it's something that is happening on a daily basis is that police take them back to this other country, which means a pushback. We call this a "pushback."And many times these pushbacks, which are illegal according to the European Union law, come with a lot of violence. Many times the police will steal the things from the people on the move. And many times they take, for example, their shoes when it's winter and then people to walk in the snow in the winter without shoes until they arrive to a safe place.So this is basically why people are crossing borders in this ways. Then another question that is very common, why a person will not stay, for example, in Bosnia, will not stay in Serbia, in North Macedonia, which are safe countries, which are very nice countries. Yeah. So, the problem is that if you look to the numbers, there are very few people, that get asylum there.So, there is people that tried too because it's like, okay, I'm in a safe place. There's no work here, and it's a beautiful place. But then if you look to the numbers, there are very, very, very few people every year that can access asylum. And while also you're waiting for your asylum to proceed, normally they keep you in those camps that really don't have the basic conditions to really have a decent life. I mean, these refugee camps, transit camps; it depends how they them in each country. [00:11:54] Chris: Wow. Thank you. And the major sites that no-name Kitchen operates in include Ceuta in Spain, which surprisingly, is actually on the African mainland. Mm-hmm. As well as in the Balkans in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Patras, Greece. [00:12:13] Barbara: Patras has just finished. Right. Basically many people are not going anymore to Greece as before because in Greek, the polices became very tough against people who are migrating. So, many times people are forced to be in detention centers, like in detention camps while they apply for asylum, while they wait for the asylum to proceed. It's like really a jail. Mm-hmm. So now many people go through Bulgaria and then Serbia.So in Greece there are not so many people anymore as it used to be. And we just close few weeks ago. But we're always open that there are more people start coming to Greece that we can reopen any project there. Okay. [00:12:47] Chris: And these other sites then in Ceuta as well as Serbia, Bosnia, and Bulgaria, these places are so important for No Name Kitchen in part because this is essentially where the movement of people flows through?[00:13:01] Barbara: We are basically in the borders because we do many things, not every day. We share food, clean clothes, provide tools that people can have hot showers, because also the many people don't have access to water. We have a health project that if someone needs a paid treatment because it's like, for example, dentist or for the eyes.And then in the hospital they don't wanna to give any of these treatments and we pay for the private doctors and so on. So it's many activities that we do every day about spending time with people in the movement, listening and spending and sharing our stories. But then all this also bring us to see how much their rights are attacked all the time.So then the aim is to denounce. The aim is that we don't need not to give this charity because there will be justice and then people don't need anymore. So the aim is to denounce what is happening all the time. So, in the place where we're is basically border areas. Mm-hmm. The border areas is where you can see how Europe is really not respecting the human rights.And because quite tough places, there is not so many movements on these areas. So for example, the humanitarian aid is pretty much criminalized. So normally police will disturb you just because you're giving jackets to people. Mm. So it's are places that are strategically for denouncing. And since it just started in Serbia, first it started in Belgrade, but three months after the team moved to Sid, which is in the border with Croatia because many people were there. And it was a point where you could really denounce on the pushbacks from Croatia. So then, all the other projects have been going very much together with the idea of reporting the border violence.Yeah. Mm. And in Ceuta, Spain, which is bordered with Morocco. It's like another border for people because even if it's a Spain, people are not allowed to take a ferry very easily to the mainland, it's very difficult. So there is a lot of bureaucratic problems in the middle, like barriers that are being pushed to the people, so then they don't have the chance to cross legally to the mainland.So many people also risk their life there. And at the same time, sometimes there are pushbacks from Ceuta to Morocco. We've denounced the pushbacks of minors and actually together with other organizations from Spain. And actually the former delegate of the government got investigated for that. And they are under, I dunno how you say in English, like invest. [00:15:27] Chris: Investigations. [00:15:29] Barbara: Yeah. So basically border areas are very much important for what we wanna denounce. Mm. And now we're starting operating in Ventimiglia, Italy, which even inside of Italy is very near France.And we visited the place there and then we saw how there are also pushbacks from France. So this is another place that it could, it could be interesting to denounce, because many, many times people would think like, ah, but this is happening there in Croatia and Serbia you know, like, Serbia is not European Union, so people sometimes think that when we are talking about the pushbacks and all this violence, like very far from us, and it's difficult to make people understand that it's actually with the money that comes from the European Union. That means that if you are from the European Union or you're working here and paying taxes here, your taxes are used to pay to torture people, basically.No. Mm wow. So it's also nice to be inside of Europe to show how this violence is systematic in the different borders. [00:16:23] Chris: Right. And in the context of these pushbacks I imagine they're happening in all different contexts and circumstances. Could you give us a little bit of an idea of what that looks like?I mean, I imagine a few different things. I imagine that people are in detention centers, people are in refugee camps. I imagine that in some instances people are simply on the street and then perhaps in others trying to get a meal. [00:16:51] Barbara: I mean, we don't see the pushbacks. Pushbacks are hidden. And also we are at the other side of the borders. We only can meet people after they got pushed-back.. Yeah. Mm. Okay. So for example, you're in Serbia and this person tells you, like, I just been pushback from Hungary.We're not in the border area. You cannot be at the border. We're in different towns near the border areas. Ok. So a pushback is like a person tries to cross the border in different ways. For example, walking the forest, hidden. It's very common.So these are the stories that people tell to us. And then at some points, police see them in maybe in Hungary or maybe in Bulgaria, or maybe in Croatia. Those are all European Union countries. And then either the police or it can be also neighbors that they believe they're patriots, they'll call the police.Mm-hmm. You can see the people on the move walking and then the police will can arrive there and can take the people back to the border by cars. Many times they need to sign papers that they don't know what is written on these papers. Many times they get lied by the police telling, like, if you sign this paper, you can access to asylum.And actually you're signing a paper that is making you a punishment for something or you're signing that you want to really go back to the other countries, so, you're signing something that you don't know. Many times people get put into detention places. It's very common in Bulgaria and in Croatia for example.And then when they leave these detention places, they are told that they need to pay for their days they've been sleeping there for the accommodation on the food, which is like normally according to what people explain to us, accommodation on food are awful. Many times, not even enough food. And many times we're talking that those are children or very young people, as well.And then police will take them to the border and then force them to come back to the country that is not European Union, which means maybe Bosnia, maybe Serbia, or maybe Turkey if they're in Bulgaria. And many times this comes with very huge violence. As you can see in our websites, we speak often about this. No Name Kitchen created one Network that is called Border Violence Monitoring Network. Border Violence Monitoring Network. Now we are not anymore part of it since last month, because we will report in other ways by ourselves and with other different partners. But there you can find all the testimonies we've been gathering since 2017.And it's how the people describe to us what happens to them. Many times, you can't really see, because many times the people describe to you one situation and then they show you their back and in their back you see the marks of the batons or the marks of sticks or things like that, so it's very obvious to see that the person is injured. Many times people can come with blood or with bruises in their faces because the police did them in their faces. Wow. And then other of the things that is very common is to steal their belongings. So like this, you make more difficult for them to continue their trip because then they take their phones, their clothes, money.So then if you see yourself, for example, in Serbia, again with no phone, with no money, with no shoes, with no basic clothes, then you cannot continue your trip. You need to find a way to get money again. You need to find, like, for example, that your family sends to you and then you can buy another phone and then you can buy new shoes.So you can continue, at some point, your way to try to ask for international protection to some European Union country. Wow. Wow. [00:20:11] Chris: I guess there's this aspect of the state that seems so deeply involved in the suppression and repression of these movements, especially from asylum seekers, right?Mm-hmm. And I think this is something that you hear about quite a bit in many parts of the world where there are these border crises, right? In regards to people who live in the borderlands who are for whatever reason against the movement or flows of people in this regard against asylum seekers in this obviously ends up or can end up with not just hostility, but violence, racism, et cetera.And I'm also curious about the possibility of hospitality in these contexts. And certainly no name kitchen appears to take on that role and that responsibility quite a bit. And it's one of the main themes of this podcast, as well, is hospitality. And I'm reminded of this story that, some years ago and at the beginning of the war in Syria around 2015, 2016, I heard a rumor that Syrian refugees were hiding in the abandoned houses in my grandparents' villages in northern Greece, right on the border with North Macedonia in the daytime and waiting until night to cross the border, mostly to avoid capture and persecution at the hands of either Greek or Macedonian authorities. And last year I was visiting my grandmother there. She confirmed the story and said that this 85 year old woman, she left her house in the daytime, in the same village, with trays and trays of food and jars of water to offer these travelers before they moved along.Since no name Kitchen relies largely on donations, I'm wondering about this notion of old time hospitality as opposed to the kind of industrial hospitality we hear about or we see in the hotels. One of the themes of this season is also about what kind of old time hospitality still exists in Europe, and I'm wondering what you and your team might have seen in this regard?[00:22:29] Barbara: so, this is a very interesting question because things have changed so much during the years, and basically because the authorities have criminalized so much. The people on the move in general, like being a migrant is like being a criminal according to general speech from the politicians, which comes from the European Union. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, it's being criminalized. The help. Humanitarian help is being criminalized. So imagine for example, I wanna tell you the story in Bosnia, because Bosnia is the project where I spent the most of my time in the last years. When I arrived in Bosnia, in Kladusa, that is in the north of Bosnia near Croatia. It was middle of 2018 and people will be very nice. And then people will be very nice with people on the move. So people on the move did not have a place where to stay cause there was no camp created there. And the mayor of the town say that they can use this field and stay. So there was a field. And then like independent organizations or independent movements like No Name Kitchen or others will be building tents, will be providing blankets and showers and so on, because the institutional organizations were doing pretty much nothing.And at the moment, they were like around 1000 people. There, it was already very difficult to cross and there were already a lot of pushbacks, so it was really difficult to cross. And some people stayed there for two years. So imagine how many wow pushbacks can it be that people can stay there up to two years.And the local people were also very nice. They will go to this camp, which is called... to this field. And will bring food, will bring clothes, will spend their cooking together, time with people because they were, lot of families, a lot of children from Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco.And so. So it was actually very nice to see. And also from our side with the local people. Local people really welcome us very nicely, because they knew that we are going there to help and they were actually very worried to see all these people in the move suffering so much. You know, because also, it's very hard for them.You have to understand that in Bosnia was a very bad, cruel war, not so long time ago. Right. When you see yourself, that you need to see how children are walking in the night pretty much cold because they were just pushed back with their families. And then you see people with bruises in their faces and things like that.It is also very hard for the Bosnian people. Mm-hmm. But despite that, they were very welcoming and very nice. When the months start passing, the police start criminalizing the humanitarian aids. So, that means that, for example, there was this family that had some people in the move living in their place for free and then the police put them a fine of like, it was like 1000-2000 thousand Euro, which is lot of money for Bosnian income.Then if you have a bar and people can enter your bar, police will go to disturb you. So then in many bars, it started to be written and which is very sad to say and to imagine, but this happens, "migrants not allowed," in the door. Mm, [00:25:23] Chris: because the local people were also being harassed or under threat as a result.[00:25:28] Barbara: So the police will disturb very much the owners of the bars, right. ...where they welcomed people on the move. And then with the time also, because there are many places that do not accept people on the move. Then if you accept people on the move, many people will be there because there is not so many places anymore where they can spend the day.Like, having a coffee, being a pretty woman. So the criminalization of the people on the move started, like actually when the money from European Union came and then a camp was built, finally. A lot of money came. The institutional organizations obviously took over this money to build the camp, and then this speech started because there were like fights, who is going to manage the camps and so on. Then, for example, as it happens everywhere, because this is not exclusively in Kladusa, as it happens everywhere, whenever there are any elections, migrants are used for getting votes. No. So, for example, in 2020 after the lockdown, which was already a very hard period, there were elections in the north of Bosnia, and then the politicians used the migrants for their speech.And a lot of hate speech was spread. So, and even was local people would organize themselves to go and beat migrants. So, it changed from being super nice to the thought that these people are not good. European Union keeps exposing these people. European Union authorities send a lot of money to the borders to keep these people out of the European Union.So something might be wrong with them. European Union feels with the right to beat these people in their faces. To push them back and also with violence. So maybe these people are not so worth it. So, it's like how all these actions that come from all these European Indian countries are dehumanizing people.In a very bad way. Also, people will complain like, "ah, because the people are not clean," and of course they're not clean because the authorities cut the access to water, so they main access to water so you can have a proper shower was cut for a while. Things like that. So it seems very much from the moment that everybody was super welcoming to the opposite.And this is very much related with the speech that EU sends to the people who are trying to seek asylum. [00:27:33] Chris: Mm. So you think that this change in the way that people perceive these people on the move and the flows of people, it comes from the top down that it's a diffusion of EU based, state-based, language that then gets diffused as it rolls down the pyramid as it makes its way into social media, for example.[00:27:59] Barbara: Yeah, sure. The thing is that if the main authority, the main one is sending millions of euros and they say always, you can listen to Ursula von der Leyen for example, who is the president of the European Commission. She will say like, we're sending money to fight mafias of human trafficking.We're sending money to reinforce the borders, to protect our borders. You need to protect our borders because someone wants to attack the border, right? Mm-hmm. You're getting this work protection, right? Are we protecting from a six year old child from Syria? We're protecting from this actually. So, but when you're using these speech, you're making the people understand that we need to get protected from them.So that means these people are dangerous, right? Mm-hmm. And you're telling this. You're sending millions of euros every year to protect the borders and to fight against human trafficking mafias. This is what they say. It's not me. So, of course, a person who is sitting on her house and knows that some people that in her town, there is 800 people, for example, walking that she doesn't know, she would believe like, "ah, these people are dangerous" because what you, what what this woman who has authorities telling the television openly.Right? [00:29:08] Chris: I had an interview with Fiore Longo, who's a representative of Survival International, one of the oldest NGOs in Europe, in the world. And in that interview, she spoke at length about how the major NGOs in the conservation world, World Wildlife Fund, African Parks, and the rest of them, were essentially collaborating with state governments in Africa in order to push indigenous people off their traditional lands, in order to create national parks or national reserves or ecotourism organizations or companies. And I'm curious within the context of the border crises in Europe, how No Name Kitchen sees these much larger NGOs, the ones that I imagine getting money from governments and also helping to change government policy. [00:30:08] Barbara: We, as No Name Kitchen movement do not get any money from the European Union nor from governments. Why? Because if you as European commission are sending these millions of euros to "protect borders," how they say. To close the borders, while you are allowing the pushbacks because the pushbacks are being denounced.We brought this information to the European Parliament. It is there. It's not a secret. Everybody knows this happening. So, if you ask a European commission are sending all these big amounts of money, but then this European commission is sending also lots of money to these people that are rejected and that are abused at the borders, to create camps for them.Yeah, you can imagine how much this European Commission cares these people and how much nice might be these camps. Those camps are catastrophic, horrible. And many people have a lot of scabies. Many people have diseases from bedbugs and come to us actually to ask for cure because they are ignored.So the big institutional organizations, and I don't gonna say names because I'm talking on behalf of No Name Kitchen are many times inside of these camps and are getting money to manage these camps, which many times are like this. And sometimes there is no bedsheet at all. It's just this old, dirty mattress, what people can find when they entering the camp. And so you are getting these huge millions of money from the European Union and then you are keeping quiet about the abuses at the borders, what is this?Everybody can know which organizations they are because actually information is there. And normally they have these big advertisements showing people also, this is something that makes me very angry, because as I tell you, they are people. They're in different circumstances that we're, right now. They're same like you, and they were in their country, living a normal life until something happen.But they don't like to see themselves in this situation. Imagine that you are like now and then a war starts there, and then you need to see yourself asking for shoes, asking for food. This is catastrophe. This is very complicated. This is really difficult for them. But then they get these advertisements on the TV showing people like, "hi, these poor refugees, they need our help. Look these poor children, how much they need our help." But also you're kinda dehumanizing them a little bit. No, because you're showing them as these poor people that didn't know how to do the things by themselves when actually people on the move, in general, they are the bravest people I have ever met.Cause really this journey is something that you really, really need to be a brave person because the most of people will not do the journey. They stay in a calm area closer to their countries. And then they show them like these poor people, like if they will really not have power to change their situation and it's never like this.But then they make these advertisements, obviously. They not only get money from the European Union, but also from donors that with all their good intention want to support these poor people in their refugee camps. For example, Greece put this rule in 2020. This refugee camp, it was at the detention center, but like really like a jail of maximum security. That you really cannot leave this place. So if there is this government making these rules that against the human rights, keeping people into detention center, that's because you're applying for a asylum.But your asylum is, is being analyzed. Why, EU as an institutional organization are supposed to work for the human rights are supporting this and supporting these decisions from the government and then the government will say, "okay, now this kind of organization cannot be anymore in the camps." Then you don't denounce this publicly. You keep quiet about the situation inside of the camps. So are we really here for the people's rights? Or you're here because of your money.[00:33:37] Chris: Wow. And I'm curious about this notion of open borders in the context of tourism as well. Right. Because tourism operates largely on this notion of open borders. Those who can fly, those who can travel, those who have the right passports can go wherever they want.Although you have to go through customs, you have to go through security when you go to a new country, of course, and usually there's limits on how long you can stay and things like that. Generally, the pro-immigration movements there is also very much this kind of discourse, this fight for open borders in terms of asylum seekers and essentially making it easier to create that kind of hospitality that's needed for people in flight, people in exile.And so I'm curious about the dynamic between the two. Right? In a lot of places in southern Europe especially, you see graffiti that says, "migrants, welcome. Tourists, go home." Right? And so I'm curious what you think of these two major avenues or channels of movement in the world between tourism and then the movement of people in flight or in exile.[00:34:56] Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah, actually tourism is seen as a very positive thing. And then we already know that actually the reason doesn't necessarily need to be positive.It can make very expensive, your city. If we talk about some countries in the world, it can bring you some pedophiles too; misuse and abuse children. You know, like tourism can bring many good things, many bad things, like everything in life. No. Right. We always say that we don't cross borders, borders crossed us, separate us.So in Spain, for example. I say Spain because it's my country and we also operate there. To listen like, "ah, because we need more children because you know, like birth rate is pretty low," and it's true that we are not having so many children anymore. And we young people and then this and that, but then we have all these people who are, have migrated already, who are living in Spain from different countries, and who are young people that will be ready to study and to get education and to start working pretty fast because we are talking about people who are maybe like teenagers. And so, but the system doesn't try to help them. Doesn't really put any effort. You know, in a Spain, there is one term that is "MENA," to speak about people who have migrated, who are children. So, they normally the fastest called the MENA just to dehumanize one person, because you're using just these letters, you know, MENA means like "Menor Extranjera, Non-Acompanado" (Unaccompanied Underage Foreigner). So you're using just this term look out children, you know, so it's a way of criminalizing them and at the same time, there are no proper initiatives to integrate these people to the system, for example. Then at the same time, we have a lot of tourism and now we have this digital nomad visa.Hmm. So look, in order you get the digital nomad visa, you need to have a pretty high income. Yeah. Right. So, that means that actually this, okay, " these people come to my town and then they'll have a lot of money." But yeah, they can make very expensive here your city. I don't know if you've seen both in Libson and in Medellin there is already protest against digital nomads because they're making everything expensive. Also in Medellin, it seems that prositution Increases, so rich people are abusing people who are poor, women, of course, who are poor.And it raise the prostitution according to what I read and what I report because I also write about these kind of things with colleagues that I interviewed. So yeah, I know, like for example, it's not open borders. Open borders. Last year we were telling, that if we will allow the people who are in the Balkans to enter European Union and to ask for asylum, and also we're asking those of Europe to respect their own law.We're not asking for something very big. We're telling them respect your own law and your own international agreements and respect the human rights. Yeah. Which is basic. We always told like if these people who were in the Balkans were not so much, really, not so much would enter, there would not be crisis anymore.All this s**t would not be happening. And last year we could see when Ukrainian war started and selling millions of people who arriving into European Union countries and could get a house very fast. The children could go to study in short time. They could get integrated into the system in very few times.So this means that we are being racist because why we can host, I don't know how many millions of people born in Ukraine and keeping the war in Ukraine and we cannot host some thousand people who come from Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan. This is racism, basically. Mm-hmm. Because in the Balkans, you find families who are three years in the Balkans, who have children. Three years without going to school.People who are getting themselves poor. You know, people when they left, it's not so easy to do this, this trip. It's very expensive. It's very hard. They have a business, for example, in Afghanistan, and then they go threatened by the Talibans or the one that the children are taken by the talibans to fight whatever.And then they say, okay, let's sell our business. Let's sell our house, our lands. They call this money and let's go to search for the future for our family. Then, they see themselves three years and the children don't go to school, that they cannot work, that they spend all their money every day. Cause there is no way to really find a job or get an income.So finally, this is racism. All this difference between a person comes from Ukraine and a person that is coming from Syria. [00:39:20] Chris: Wow. In regards to the relationships that are built between the Kitcheners of No Name Kitchen and the asylum seekers, do any of those friendships end up developing once those people have found a place to settle, a place to stay?[00:39:41] Barbara: Yeah, yeah, of course. It's true that now, it's not so easy to be spend time together because the police is really much disturbing you because you're giving a jacket to someone. So, it doesn't allow you to spend so much time anymore, together. But in general, what we promote in No Name Kitchen and what is very important for us, that we are really together.No, because we are people. All of us, we are people, just in different circumstances. We're actually all of us migrants. Some of them are local people as well, that are supporting us. Cause many local people support our activities. Maybe not always so active because finance is very tired to be every day in your own hometown doing these things.I'm facing all these challenges. For us it's very important to create networks of trust and mutual understanding. So, it's not only you are helping someone. No, no, it is not about this. It's about, you are there, you are learning with a, with a person. We are spending time with a person.It's amazing for me being volunteer with No Name Kitchen is amazing because you can learn so much. You can meet so much amazing people. And I tell you that I'm here with a colleague that she was with me in Bosnia. And then next week, some friends who live in different European countries are gonna come to visit us. One is originally from Syria. The other originally from Pakistan. Mm-hmm. They're gonna come here to visit because now they are already have made their lives. One is living in France. The other is living in the Netherlands. They have their papers, everything, so now they can travel freely around European Union.So this is very, very, very important for us. And actually these networks are very valuable because maybe some person arrives later to some country and then this person has already friends in this country. Mm. [00:41:16] Chris: Right. And in some instances, some of the people do end up returning, or maybe not returning is the right word, but reuniting with No Name Kitchen and other places to help perhaps serve those on the move for a time.[00:41:30] Barbara: Yeah. Like taking papers in Europe, it takes very long, so it's not so easy. And we started only in 2017. So many of the people that we know, they're still on the way to get papers. Really long process. No, but for example, there is this friend of me who is from Iran and I met him in Kladusa, in Bosnia, and now he's living in France.And the other day he wrote me. He was with two colleagues of me that he also met them in Bosnia and he was visiting them and the newborn baby they have been. And he would really like to come to volunteer with No Name Kitchen because now he has documents that he could. But at same time, because of the working conditions finally in this racist work, sometimes cannot be the same for everybody.Right. So he doesn't have the chance to just get one whole month to come. But at some point, yeah, he's thinking about coming. It can be difficult cause then I tell you that police sometimes are chasing people who are not white. So, sometimes it can be difficult, but at the same time. But yeah. Well the idea is like many of our friends now at some point will start not getting, or are getting documents. So, this is a network of people with people and for people. Mm [00:42:31] Chris: mm Amazing. Yeah. It does remind me of the philosophies and practices of mutual aid, (of apoyo mutuo). [00:42:38] Barbara: But it's very important. The other day I was telling to my therapist because I go to the therapy because of the stress.Yeah. So, we're talking about. And last time I was on the field and then she was telling like, yeah, " who helps you when you're helping?" It's like no, you cannot imagine like people on the move have really tried to help you, as well.You know? Like they cannot help us with that distribution. They can help us giving a lot of support. For example, when I was living in Bosnia and I had like a free day, I would go to my friends, to their squats. They had a very warm stove there. And I would be as there, they would cook for me, know, we would be playing board games, we would be laughing and that was my holiday.And for me that was a great moment, where to spend my free day, with them, and they would be taking care of me because they knew I was very stressed and they wanted me to be spoiled one day.[00:43:28] Chris: It's beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah. The kind of hospitality that can arise in times of conflict, right? Mm-hmm. And so in a time of border crises seems to exist in so many parts of the world, so few people at least in my purview or my understanding actually know about these border crises or understand the complexity around them.And so I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for people who are either critical of immigration or people who want to understand the issues more deeply, and of course those who support asylum secrets. [00:44:16] Barbara: Yeah, I mean finally we're in the era of information, right? So if you wanna get information, good information, because you need to identify the misinformation sources.If you wanna get good information, there is a lot. So yes, please get informed and also go with people that have migrating and talk to them. Cause you'll meet them and you'll spend a lot of time with them and then you'll see how are their stories behind. And also, I really recommend people to get more information about this because I cannot believe that in the 21st century we are using the money of our taxes to pay for torture.This is just insane because this is torture, really, what is happening at the borders of the European Union. And I guess many people in European Union countries do not want their taxes to be spent like this. But at the same time, they don't get informed about this. There are so many sources of information. From us in our social media, we keep informing on a daily basis about the different things that are happening always. But in general, there are very good newspapers all over in different languages where you can get good information and also go to people and talk to people. [00:45:21] Chris: Yeah. It's I mean, go to people and talk to the people. The people that you know, you would perhaps not even talk to, just criticize, without having anything to do with.Right. And that most of those people that have an incredible unwillingness, like they're willing to criticize, but they're not willing to go and talk to the people who they're criticizing. Right. And it's really interesting because as you were talking about earlier, you know, Lisbon and Medellin and the backlash against digital nomads and things like that.This is happening as well in Oaxaca although against tourists in general. Some people ask me like, well, what do we do? And, and I say, well, why don't you go talk to the tourists? Ask them why they're here. Ask them what their life is like, because there's this image, this single or singular image of the tourist and it's a caricature, it's a stereotype, and it says that all tourists are exactly the same. They come for the same reasons. They do the same things. And they have nothing to do with us, right? They're totally the opposite of who we are and all of this stuff.And it's very, very similar to the way that people especially people who speak poorly of immigrants or people on the move also view this and just this unwillingness to speak with the other, right. Hmm. So much to consider. My plate is full with all you've offered today. And I'm deeply grateful to have been on the receiving end of your words today. I'm curious, Barbara how might our listeners get involved in No Name Kitchen?How might they find out more and follow your work online. [00:47:05] Barbara: Yeah, welcome everybody. We have Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter. And also now we started some months ago in TikTok. But yeah, we're on social media and also we try very much to always report everything we know, so people on the move know that they can rely on us if they want to denounce something publicly. And here we are for that. Welcome everybody to follow our task and to get to know more about the situation at the borders.[00:47:31] Chris: Thank you so much. On behalf of our listeners, it's been an honor to speak with you and, and to really get a deeper perspective onto these notions of exile and immigration and borders and border crises happening in the world now. So I'm really grateful for your willingness to speak with us today and to be able to add that layer to the conversation. [00:47:53] Barbara: Thanks very much to you for, invite us, for, invite me, for give voice to the situation and everybody welcome to follow what we do.Thank you very much. [00:48:01] Chris: Thank you, Barbara. Take care. [00:48:04] Barbara: Take care. Bye. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

What you'll learn in this episode:   How the artists represented by BABS translate their artistic vision to jewelry Why showing art and jewelry outside of the traditional gallery setting can make it less intimidating for non-collectors Why artist jewelry has yet to catch on with Italian consumers, and how Barbara hopes the industry evolves Why Barbara thinks there should be no division between art and art jewelry, and how she is trying to solve this issue What Barbara looks for in the pieces she selects for her gallery   About Barbara Lo Bianco Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists' jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Website: www.babsartgallery.it Artists Page: https://www.babsartgallery.it/maestri-gioiello-milano/ Barbara's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lo-bianco-a1330a/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babsartgallery/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/babsartgallery.gioiellidartista/ Twitter: @BabsGallery   Transcript   Barbara Lo Bianco's mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she's trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    We've had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor. Welcome back.   I look at art. I give a cursory glance at the art that might not be at a gallery, let's say, but at a jewelry store. It's decoration, but it's not to sell.   Barbara: You see a lot of restaurants in Milan that exhibit artworks by artists that are just there for the exhibition, so I think Italians are more acquainted with it. They do see it, and they might even ask questions because it's another environment. They're talking to somebody that is not doing that for business. They knew I was not going to sell to them. I was just saying, “You like it? Look, this is the business card of the artist. Just call him.” They feel free to ask him questions about it.   Sharon: That is different. It's different from the experience I've had here. How do you divide historical contemporary from contemporary? I was surprised to see on your website what I would consider contemporary, but they were maybe historical. You had some Dalí. I can't remember exactly.   Barbara: Yeah, we have Dalí. You cannot say it's contemporary. He's dead, so I cannot work with him anymore, unfortunately. He was last century. He's modern; he's not contemporary. There is this small distinction between modern and contemporary. There are some artists that are modern and others that are contemporary. Contemporaries are the ones that are living now and the ones that are working still. Those who are no longer working cannot be called contemporary. They are modern, yes, but they're not contemporary.    Then there are some that are contemporary, but they're already established. Some others are emergent or mid-career. What I'm focusing on now is mid-career, moving a little bit towards established. I'm between that field. I don't do emerging, and I don't do contemporary jewels. I do contemporary art, yes.    Sharon: It seems like a tremendous incentive. They show their art and a jewel or two they have made for you, and they talk with people who are aficionados.    Barbara: Yes, what is nice is that when we finish the project with the artist, we do an exhibition. I do exhibit works the artist is usually known for so you can recognize his style; you can recognize his message alongside the jewels he or she created. You can see the starting point or the inspiration point and the actual work they did, the new project, which is not often just a small reduction. It is something else, but you can still recognize the style and the message of the artist.    They do come to the exhibition, of course; they do speak with the people, but during the period of the exhibition, I always try to organize another talk or some sort of small event by appointment. There are 20, 40 people at most, so they get a chance to talk with the artist and ask them questions if they want—even if, most of the time, artists like to have their works speak for them. They are not so keen on speaking, especially in a larger group. In a small group, it works better.   Sharon: Do people see the connection?   Barbara: Yes, once they see them outside, they do. You do understand it. If you see the work by itself, it probably is not that easy, but if you see the works alongside the jewels, you do see the same end, the same meaning. It is like a speech that works within different media.   Sharon: Would you give us an example where you saw the connection?   Barbara: For example, there is an artist we work with. She made a sculpture which is about two meters high. It was treated as if it were a mirror in a bronze cage in front that looked like a medieval prison. So, you walk in front of this sculpture and suddenly you see yourself within a prison. You should start asking yourself, “Am I free or not? Why do I see myself within a cage?”   The piece of work is called The Golden Cage, because even if we are free, we are actually closed in a golden cage, more or less, because of all the limitations we give ourselves, because of all the routine, because of all the relations we have, because of all the boundaries we give ourselves, because of where our family or our business or our everyday life leads us. We wanted to give the same idea within a jewel.    It was quite hard because of the sizes. You cannot reflect yourself entirely within a cage. We tried and it came out very nice, but then we had an idea, “O.K., why don't we put something precious in it?” We started putting in a precious stone, and that gave the message. The stone doesn't get any light from anywhere, so it doesn't follow the rules of jewelry where you have to give light to stone; you have to embellish it; you have to make it shiny; you have to show that it's worth it. In this case, we put this stone within a cage, and it doesn't get any light from anywhere. You can see it because it's huge. The message is no matter how beautiful you are, you can never shine if you are within a cage. So, you get the same feeling; you get the same taste of the poetry of the artist, but in a different way.   Sharon: Do the artists you exhibit have favorite stones that they work with more than others?   Barbara: It depends. Some of them don't want to work with any type of stone. Some work with stone. It depends. They are totally free. Another one is Alex Pinna. His bigger sculptures are usually made in big rope, like the ones for boats and other ships. We made the jewels with ebony, gold, silver, even rope. They give exactly the same feeling of his sculptures but made in a different way and with different shapes. He makes mixed sculptures. He's a little bit individual. He makes these very thin human beings, but not in detail, that are sort of waiting for something that will happen or just happened; you don't know. He captured exactly the same sense of being suspended in his sculptures and in his jewels.    Sharon: Do you tell the artist what you're looking for? Do you tell them, “I want bracelets”?   Barbara: No.   Sharon: You don't tell them. They have free reign.    Barbara: I tell them, “Don't try to do what is easy; try to do what you think would be good, and leave it to me and the goldsmith to try to figure out the way to realize it. Don't go for the easy thing.” The medallion would be the easiest way, but it's banal; it's something that has been seen tons of times. I think that in some way, art has to go beyond, has to go a little bit further. That's what I tell them.   Sharon: It's in your name, Beyond Sculpture.   Barbara: Yeah, that's right.   Sharon: When I hear the word unique, it means I won't see anything like it. Is that different at your gallery?   Barbara: No, that's right. We work with unique pieces, unique within a series, or we work with very small editions. That means if it is unique, it is just one piece and that's it. No way are we ever going to have another one again. If it is unique within a series—for example, we worked with one artist that made 13 rings which were all similar, but all very different. They are unique within a series. The series is of those 13 rings, but they are all different from one another. They differ in color. They differ in material. They are different in treatment. They are different because one might be made with enamel; the other might be without. It depends.    Otherwise, it can be a small series. We usually work with eight pieces because in the sculpture world it can still be defined as unique, but we do declare that it is one out of eight or two out of eight. In some cases, we talk with the artist, especially if they want to make the price a little bit lower. We might be working with a series of 20 or 30. In three cases, we did something for charity, so we worked in a series of 99.   Sharon: Do your artists care if it's a unique piece? Is it important to them that they have a small series of 12 or eight?   Barbara: Some of them do want to keep it unique or in a very small series because that's how they work with their art. Some others don't mind. For example, Emilio Isgrò, who is one of the most accredited artists in Italy now, didn't mind working with the larger series. So, we worked with 30 pieces. He doesn't really mind. If it helps spread it and makes it something people would wear more, let's do it. It depends.   Sharon: Do your clients come from all over Europe or from Italy?   Barbara: We have clients from Japan, from the U.S., from Canada, from the U.K., Belgium. We do work everywhere because with the technologies now, that's a little bit easier. With some clients, they ask us to ship it. We wear it and do some videos to show how the ring looks or how the necklace looks, and then we ship it. We are doing some fairs. Last year we did Basel, the design fair. We had great contacts and clients from all over the world. It depends.   Sharon: You did Design Basel?   Barbara: Sorry if I interrupted you. Actually, I might say that more clients are foreigners than Italians. The Italians are still a little bit more toward traditional jewels.   Sharon: I'm surprised to hear that.    Barbara: Yes, there's still not too much of a culture for artist jewelry.   Sharon: Do you see that changing?   Barbara: There's a little bit more interest, but it's still quite hard because in Italy there's the tradition. Jewelry is often a present, and jewels by artists is something you buy for yourself because it's a liaison between you and the artist and the piece of art. Usually if somebody gives it to you, it's because they know you very well; they know you like that artist. Otherwise, no. It is a little bit harder that way. Italian women especially don't buy too many jewels by themselves.   Sharon: So, most of the jewelry you're seeing is run of the mill, the kind you'd give as a gift. It's not what you carry.   Barbara: Yeah.   Sharon: O.K.   Barbara: What were you asking before?   Sharon: I was just going to ask what your dream would be for the business, what the next step is.   Barbara: The next step is to keep working with major artists. The thing I would really like is to make it easier to exhibit at fairs. Last year, as I was telling you, we exhibited at Basel, but we were in the bazaar in the pavilion, because the business was considered an applied art, which I don't think is fair. It is art. It is just a small size that can be worn. The same artists that were exhibiting their jewelry, they were in the art pavilion with other works of art. Why can't they stay together? That's one thing.    Another thing is that they often tell me, “No, you have to exhibit either the piece of art or the jewelry,” and I don't see why. Art should have no limits. If it is an art exhibit, it is art. That's something I'm really trying to make the curator of the fairs understand, but it's hard.   Sharon: That sounds like a big hurdle, a big one to get over and get past.   Barbara: Yeah, I don't see why. We had pieces from artists and their other artwork was on the other side. We had Gilardi, and Gilardi was on the other side. Why can't they be in the same space, in the same location? Applied art doesn't mean it's less valuable than normal art.   Sharon: That's interesting. It's been about four years since the first time we talked to you. I hope by the next time, you will have resolved a lot of these issues.   Barbara: Thank you. I'll try.    Sharon: Thank you very much.   Barbara: I'll keep trying. Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure to see you again.   Sharon: It's nice to see you. Thank you. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How the artists represented by BABS translate their artistic vision to jewelry Why showing art and jewelry outside of the traditional gallery setting can make it less intimidating for non-collectors Why artist jewelry has yet to catch on with Italian consumers, and how Barbara hopes the industry evolves Why Barbara thinks there should be no division between art and art jewelry, and how she is trying to solve this issue What Barbara looks for in the pieces she selects for her gallery   About Barbara Lo Bianco Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists' jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Additional Resources: Website: www.babsartgallery.it Artists Page: https://www.babsartgallery.it/maestri-gioiello-milano/ Barbara's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-lo-bianco-a1330a/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babsartgallery/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/babsartgallery.gioiellidartista/ Twitter: @BabsGallery   Transcript   Barbara Lo Bianco's mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she's trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    We've had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor, but her passion has always been in art and jewelry. BABS stands for Beyond Art Before Sculpture. She opened a gallery which showcases artists she knew. They were doing sculpture, but she convinced them to do jewelry. They didn't know their creativity was also in this area until she gave them the space and encouragement to do it. We'll hear all about her art gallery today.   Barbara: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me again.   Sharon: I'm so glad that we connected. Why did you decide to locate in Milan?   Barbara: It's very normal. It's just that I live here. It's the easiest thing. Milan has a long tradition in artist jewelry. Actually, artist jewelry in Italy started in Rome right after World War II, when some of the sculptors were commissioned to do unique pieces in order to recreate an interest in our jewelry, which was not something necessary right after the war, when everything had to be reconstructed again. So, you had to make jewelry that was a little bit different.   Then, in the 60s, it moved to Milan. In Milan, there was GEM by Montebello, who has been the biggest and most famous editor of jewelry by artists in Italy. They worked with more than 50 artists and created more than 200 jewelry pieces. So, there is a tradition, but there had never been a gallery doing that. So, I was in Milan. Why not? Actually, I'm still the only gallery in Italy.   Sharon: In Italy?   Barbara: Yes.   Sharon: I'm thinking about Thereza Pedrosa. She gathers pieces she likes, not pieces that have been commissioned for the gallery.   Barbara: Yeah, this is a little bit different. We don't focus on contemporary; we focus on jewels made by artists, visual artists, painters, sculptors, photographers. We ask them to do a piece of jewelry. We also exhibit some historical pieces, but it's not our major business.   Sharon: I was wondering if you live in Milan. I don't know that much about Italy, but I've heard Milan is the fashion capital.   Barbara: It is. It's so busy.   Sharon: Did you have a reason to start there?   Barbara: It's the most motivational and vibrant city in Italy. It is very European, although in size, it's quite nice. It still has a local atmosphere although it's quite international. The other cities in Italy are more for tourists. This is one is more a business city, and it's more where you do things. It's the most business city we have, but it's nice.   Sharon: I've heard it's an up-and-coming city. It was industrial and now it's really changed.   Barbara: Yes, in the 70s, it used to be a little bit more industrial. Now, it's mainly services.   Sharon: Was that one reason you decided to open in Milan, besides the fact that you lived in Milan? Did you consider other places?   Barbara: No, honestly, I did not. I think it is quite a good location because a lot of the expertise, especially for goldsmiths, is in this area anyway. I would have had to work mostly from here. Plus, it is quite convenient if you do road shows or if you want to do exhibitions. It's very logistically easy. There are some cities in Italy which might be a little bit more artistic, like Florence or Venice or Rome, but I still think working in Milan would be the best place.   Sharon: Did you consider other artists you didn't know, or artists that were in other parts of Italy?   Barbara: Oh, yes. We do work with them. I started with just a few whom I knew. I had been buying their work because I am an art enthusiast. I did buy some pieces of artists I liked. That was just the beginning, but I'm still working and starting to get work from other artists, not only Italians, but also foreigners.    Sharon: Did you find it difficult to start because they didn't know who you were?    Barbara: Yes. I have to say yes, because at the beginning I was totally new and a very young gallery. It was the only gallery doing this in Italy, so it was quite strange to approach an artist and ask, “Excuse me, would you like to do this?” Second, it was because I don't come from the art world. I've not been in the system. My husband is not a collector. He's not a gallerist nor is my family. We've always been very enthusiastic about it, but we're not related to anyone and haven't worked with museums or galleries. So, connections were not that easy at the beginning.    I'm usually a little bit humble, but this time I have to say it because I've been having a lot of appreciation lately. I'm working a lot and trying to work well and consistently, so people are now approaching me, and once I approach them, they're willing to work with me. So, it's getting easier.    Sharon: What did you do during Covid, when nobody would talk to anybody?   Barbara: Well, we needed to work. We worked at trying to build up an archive. We were organizing, taking pictures and trying to exploit social media and what technology gave us. We were quite a young gallery because we opened in the autumn of 2018. After a year and a half, we were already closed for the pandemic, but that gave us some time to slow down a little bit. We had been doing exhibitions every two months, which was a lot. So, we had time to slow down and reorganize the archive, reorganize the website, reorganize the Instagram, and try to understand how all those types of media work, because I had never been using them. I didn't need them in my previous business. So, there was everything to learn.   Sharon: Is this what you focus on mainly, besides the gems? Have you given up the gems? Have you given up the real estate investing? Is this your main business?   Barbara: No, this is my main business. I gave up fitness. I'm still doing real estate and financial investments because that's a family company. I work for them, but that doesn't take too much time. I have to say that the gallery absorbs 90% of my working time.   Sharon: Wow! Do you have people who work for you in the gallery?   Barbara: Yes, I have a couple of assistants.   Sharon: How do you find new artists? Do they submit things to you?   Barbara: Sometimes they submit them. Sometimes I work with curators and consultants. I explore new artists and try to see what's new in this world, plus I go to classes. I'm doing a class with an art historian with a focus on contemporary artists. So, I see the artists I like or artists I might find interesting for what they have to say. I always get inspiration.    Sharon: Is that an official class, or is that something you do because you like to?   Barbara: No, that's just because I like to. At this time in my life, I'm doing things just because I like them. It's always been an interest, so I want to pursue it; I want to do it. I do study a lot of art because that's not my background. My background is in law and then taking classes for an MBA. I've been working in a totally different field, so there's always a need to learn more. Of course, I've grown up surrounded by art, but that's mostly ancient art. That helps you build a critical eye and makes you a little more curious about exploring things, but somehow you have to continue pursuing what you like. So, I do study.   Sharon: Do people send photos to you of things you've never heard of?   Barbara: Yes, artists do propose. There are not that many, I have to say. They propose themselves mostly if they are emerging artists. A lot of contemporary jewelers do promote themselves, but I do not work with them most of the time because that's not my business. That is a very nice type of art, but it's not what I'm focusing on. What I do in the gallery is work with regional artists that usually do not do jewelry. I ask them to create something with their poetic position, with their aesthetic eye, with their meaning, and with the message they usually try to correlate with their art. I propose that they exploit a new medium to convey the same type of art, which is a small sculpture.   Sharon: Do they understand what you're after?   Barbara: Yes.    Sharon: And if you're low on rings or bracelets, let's say, and you need more, you don't tell them that.   Barbara: No, usually not. I ask them to do something and leave them free—at least at the beginning, I let them feel free to explore, to draw, to create a prototype in paper, in concrete, in clay, in wax, in whatever they like. That's a starting point. From that starting point, we start creating things. Maybe we say, “O.K., this one doesn't work as a bracelet, but maybe we can transform it into a necklace or into a pendant,” or “This doesn't work as a ring, but it could be an earring or vice versa.” It depends.    Sharon: Are they open to your changes, if you have changes?   Barbara: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they do not want to change the work, but the work is not wearable, sometimes we discharge that project. We do another thing.   Sharon: If it's not wearable?   Barbara: Yeah, because there are some limitations. If you want to create a ring in gold and in a particular size, but it doesn't fit because it would be way too heavy, then I cannot make it. If you want to make an earring and it weighs too much so that your ear falls down, there is no way we can do an earring. We can do something else, or we can change the material and try to find something lighter. Sometimes they do accept it; sometimes we just don't do that piece.    Sharon: You mentioned that you like the fact that you can show your art and jewelry in different places where you don't usually see it, like a gym.    Barbara: Since I've always been passionate about art, I've always thought people are quite shy about walking into a regular art gallery, especially in Italy. You have some sort of fear. “What if they ask me to buy it and I cannot afford it? What if I don't understand and I ask the wrong question?” Especially with contemporary art, it's always harder to approach it.    I had a chain of very high-end fitness centers. Very nice people were coming to the gym, and they were coming quite often. I had a lot of walls, so I said, “Why not exhibit some young artists or some contemporary artists?” I did, and it was appreciated by other people. They did approach the art and they liked it. Twice a year, I was doing a bigger exhibition with sculptures. For the rest, I was just exhibiting flatworks. It was quite a successful experience for everyone. We had nicer spaces for the clients that were seeing something new, and the artists sold pieces quite a few times. It was a win/win situation.   Sharon: Wow! We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why being a jewelry artist is like being an engineer How Barbara got her jewelry in the hands of famous rock-and-rollers like David Bowie and the Rolling Stones  Why Barbara doesn't separate her jewelry into women's and men's lines Why talent is only a small part of what it takes to become a successful jeweler About Barbara Klar Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright. Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day. New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer! Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky. Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video. Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains." Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter Blog Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Barbara Klar's jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara's celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Welcome back.    So, is your studio inside your home now?   Barbara: Yes, it is. It always has been. One time, I tried to have my studio in the back room of my store in SoHo. That just didn't work at all. If they know I'm there, everybody is like, “Is Barbara here?” I could never get any work done. Eventually, I was able to get a building in Williamsburg and have my studios there. It was a great building because it had been a doctor's office in the 50s, so there was a little living space in the back and the front had been all the examination rooms. That worked out perfectly for my studio at the time.   Sharon: And you're in Woodstock, New York now?   Barbara: Yes, I am. I love it here.   Sharon: Had you moved there before Covid, or is that just an area you like?   Barbara: I've been here about six years now. I've been all over the Hudson Valley. I think I moved here prior to Covid. It's a very arty town and full of weirdos and like-minded people. It's a cool place. It has the history of Bird-On-A-Cliff, which was where all the Hudson Valley artists started. It started as an arts colony. So, it's got that history, and it's nice to be part of a history.    When I had my store—and I loved my store on 7th Steet in the East Village—I was so akin and felt such a vibe from the previous generations of jewelers that had stores on 8th Street in the West Village. It was a complete circle to me, and I feel that way now as well.   Sharon: So, you targeted Woodstock or this area to live in?   Barbara: No, I was going through a breakup. It was very painful. I found a place here. I knew it would be my home and my love. I was lucky. It's one of those guided journeys.   Sharon: Looking behind you, I can see you have quite a well-developed studio. You have all your tools. It doesn't seem like you'd be missing anything there.    Barbara: Definitely not. It's great.   Sharon: Did you start out that way? Did you collect the tools throughout the years?   Barbara: Since 1979, I've been collecting tools. There's always something else you need as a jeweler and a metalsmith. About 10 years ago I sold my house, which was a little bit south of Woodstock, and got rid of everything except my studio and my clothes. That's where I'm at now, and it feels so good to not be buried with stuff. I just have my workshop, and that's basically it.   Sharon: That's the important thing, having your workshop. I don't know if you still do, but you had a very successful line of men's jewelry.   Barbara: Yeah, I was one of the first to do men's jewelry. That was probably in the late 80s, early 90s. I've done a lot of men's. I had a lot of gay male clientele. They were always coming in, and they had a large disposable income. It worked out great. I love to see a man in jewelry. I love what's happened with the metrosexuals in the last eight or nine years. Even the nonbinary and straight males are feeling more comfortable with jewelry, and I think it's really great. Coming from a rock background, you see a lot of flamboyancy on stage, and you see a lot of guys flashing metal. I think it looks great.   Sharon: It that what prompted you to develop this line? Did you ever sell it? Was it a production line or was it one-off? How was it?   Barbara: It's limited production always. I had a friend ask me recently, “Barbara, on your website, why don't you have a category that's specifically men's jewelry?” I said, “I'll never do that because I can never tell what a man's going to like.” With all of this large spectrum of gender identity, I can't tell what somebody's going to like. That's not up to me, to decide what men's jewelry is. So, I never really bought into that, but I know men and kids seem to like my work.   Sharon: They look in your window and come in and say, “I'd like to try that on”?   Barbara: Yeah, especially some of the bigger rings. I was always surprised what was attractive to them. Also, there's a lot of word of mouth. I never relied on advertising. I got a lot of press, which didn't seem to do much, but mostly it's because of word of mouth that people come to me.   Sharon: Is the press how you developed your celebrity clientele? You were mentioning that you have quite a roster or that you've done a lot for celebrities.   Barbara: Yeah, that just kind of happened. In my store in SoHo, I used to have what I would call my “deli wall.” You know how you go into a deli in New York and you see all of the celebrities saying, “Oh, thanks for that corned beef sandwich. It was the best I had”? I had that in the background. Over time, celebrities would come in. A lot of stylists would bring celebrities. I developed the deli wall, and it was word of mouth again.   Sharon: I always wonder when I look at a deli wall if they ask people for their signatures, if they have a stack of photos in the back and say, “Would you sign this?” How did that work for you?   Barbara: I'd always ask them. It's hard to do sometimes. I don't want to overstep because every celebrity reacts differently to being recognized and interacting, but you've just got to do it. It's funny; I'm impressed, but I know they're human just like me. On my website, I sometimes look at the marketing stats, and that page is the most visited page. Here in America, we love our celebrities.    I know a lot of them had a big impact on me, so I get it. Once I waited in line for half a day because I made this belt for Tina Turner. She was signing records at Tower Records in New York City. I went up to her and showed her the belt, and I was so excited because she meant a lot me. She got me through a couple of breakups that were pretty devastating. So, I get it. I'm a fan. Definitely, I'm a fan.   Sharon: What did she say when she saw the belt?   Barbara: She was like, “Oh, I love it. I just love it.” She said, “I'm going to wear it.” I never saw her wearing it, but she was very kind and wonderful and gracious.   Sharon: That takes guts on your part, just to show a belt to a celebrity like that.    Barbara: It's not comfortable for me because I'm very shy. I'm really a shy person. I even tried being in bands. My friends were in bands. I work better behind the scenes, but sometimes you have to jump off that cliff. I'm one of these people that I might be shy, but I'm also brave. I'll take a risk. I think in these times, with the all the competition out there, especially for jewelry designers, you have to take a risk and you have to be brave.   Sharon: Yes, absolutely. It's amazing to me; so many people I talk to who make jewelry, they say they're shy, but you have to put yourself out there. You have to put your product out there. You can't just sit in your studio.   Barbara: You can't, and you also have to be able to talk about your work. There was a relationship I had at one time, and we had these arguments because he would make this incredible work. I would say, “What does it mean? How would you explain it? How would you define it?” and he would say, “Well, I'm not going to do that. If I have to do that, it negates everything. People should be able to draw their own opinions about what I'm saying.” I was like, “No, I don't agree. I think you should be able to say what your intention was, how you see it. If it's interpreted differently, that's an extra plus in my mind.” I think everybody should be able to talk about their work.   Sharon: Especially if you are doing what I'll call art jewelry. You're not walking into a place like Tiffany, let say. That's the only one of its kind.    Barbara: Exactly. The one-of-a-kinds are like that. When I had my store in SoHo, the greatest thing that was the most fun for me was making an inspirational thing that I thought nobody would ever wear or buy and putting it in the window, because that would get people to come in. They were outrageous; they were huge, and often I would sell those pieces. It was a shock to me.   Sharon: How did it feel to see celebrities, such as Steve Jordan, wearing what you made?   Barbara: It's pretty incredible. Once it leaves my hands, it takes on its own journey. It's an ego boost for a minute, but then you've got to make a living the rest of the time. I've been in this business so long, and you think, “Oh my God, I got my stuff on the Rolling Stones tour. It's so great.” It's impressive to people when you're at a party and you can say that. Ultimately, it means nothing. Has he mentioned my name or anything on the Rolling Stones tour? No. That may never happen, and that's fine. I don't care. It's fun.    Sharon: Is it validation to other people if you're showing your work or talking about it, and you say a certain celebrity wore it? Isn't that validation in a sense?   Barbara: It is. I try not to buy into that too much. The validation really comes from myself. I know what I'm doing. It's fine. I don't really need that, but that's an extra special perk, I must say.   Sharon: A validation for you, but also—I'm not sure it would sway me, but for a lot of people—it depends on who the celebrity is, but it could sway somebody. They might say, “If ABC person wore it, then I want one like it.”   Barbara: Oh yeah, definitely. It works that way. To a lot of my rock-and-roll friends, the fact that I've sold a lot of work to Steven Tyler or Steve Jordan means something. Sometimes they'll come to me with special commissions. One of my first commissions when I had my store in SoHo was for a client who had been to London, and he was obsessed with Keith Richards and the bracelet he always wears. He wears this incredible bracelet made by Crazy Pig Studios in London. He came to me and said he wanted me to make a bracelet like the one Keith Richards wears. I said, “Why would you have me do it? Why don't you dial Crazy Pig in London and get the same bracelet?” He said, “Oh, I was in there. They were mean. They were really intimidating. I don't want to give them my money.” So, I said, “All right. It's going to be a little different, but I'll make one for you,” and I made this incredible bracelet. I still sell it today. It's the Keith Richards bracelet. It's a fun story.   Sharon: Wow! Yeah, that is a fun story. You're also writing a book now. Tell us a little about the title.   Barbara: Titles are interchangeable, but this has been the title for a while. It's called “You're So Talented.” I'm not sure what the subtitle is going to be exactly, but it could be “It Takes More Than Talent” or “Confessions of a Worker Bee.” It's basically about my stories, my experiences not being a businessperson and being more of an artist, surviving New York. A lot of stories. It's geared towards kids who have a lot of talent, but that's not all it takes. Talent is like two percent of what it takes to be successful and to be creative and to be a survivor.    Surviving in New York City was such an incredible challenge, especially when you're living and working on the street level. You can't control what comes into your space. You don't know how business is done. I had just opened my store in the East Village. I was 24 or something, and this big bruiser guy comes into my store and is like, “You gotta pay me for sanitation pickup.” I said, “What? I have to pay for sanitation? I thought the landlord took care of that.” He said, “No, we pick it up.” I'm like, “Well, how much do you want?” He said, “We want $75 a month.” I said, “What? I can't pay that. I can barely pay my rent.” He said, “Well, how much can you pay?” and I said, “Well, I can pay like $15.” He said, “O.K.” and he walked out. Wouldn't you know, every month he was there for his $15. It was crazy.   Sharon: You were honest, but you had to become a businessperson over the years.   Barbara: It was such a challenge. I have to tell you, another successful designer once said to me, “Nothing teaches you about money like not having any.” I think that was one of the wisest words, because I learned how to become my own bookkeeper, my own press person, my own rep. I also had to pay all the employee taxes, navigate the business end of it, try to get business loans. That was such an experience. I heard 2Roses talking about this on your podcast, too, about how business should be included in art school training. I was totally thrown out there and totally naïve.   Sharon: It sounds like the school of hard knocks.   Barbara: Definitely.   Sharon: And that's what the book is about?   Barbara: Yes. People say, “You're so talented.” If I had a quarter for every time somebody said that to me, I'd be rich. No, it's not about that. It's about perseverance, and it's about hearing a lot of “no's.” It's about coming through the back door instead of the front door. The book is about things that were on my journey that were important and meaningful to me, and that I think young people could learn something from about moving to New York as an artist. It's very different now. I don't claim to know the ins and outs of New York City at this point in life, but I think my journey is still relevant.   Sharon: Definitely. I'm curious how you took the “no's,” because you must have heard a lot of “no's.”   Barbara: So many. It gets you to that next point. A no is actually good, because you're forced to meet up with another solution or another path. I'll never forget; I wanted to be like Robert Lee Morris, who had his work everywhere and bought a ranch in New Mexico and everything. I remember being tested for QVC in the 80s. They were having young designers on QVC. I did the test, and I heard them in the background saying, “I don't know if she works well on camera. She might be a little too quirky. Her work is a little too eclectic.” I was like, “Oh God, really?” So, I was like, “You know what? I don't care. That's my thing. Maybe I don't want to be a production person.”    I looked into having my work made overseas and all of that, and I realized, in the end, I would just be a manufacturer. For me, the art was more important. The hands-on making was more important. The person-to-person contact, communication with my clients and my employees was really important to me. I enjoy that way more than if I had been basically a business owner.    Sharon: It's having the mark of the hand on it. If I know that you crafted it or somebody crafted it, it has much more meaning, I think.   Barbara: Absolutely. It means a lot to me. Recently I had a client whose mother was a big jewelry collector and had a couple of Art Smith rings. The client had lost one of the rings in the pair in Provincetown. It went into the ocean, gone. I was able to hold the matching ring in my hand and look at it and see a signature, because the client wanted me to recreate this ring, which I did do. But the whole time I was making this ring, I kept imaging Art. The ring was covered in dots of silver and pink gold and yellow gold. It's a beautiful ring, very asymmetrical. The dots were raised like a half a millimeter off the band, and there were like 50 dots on this ring. So, I'm thinking of him making this ring in his studio. Every dot had to have a peg soldered onto the back before it was soldered onto the band. I did that 50 times, and I'm thinking, “My God, this guy was tenacious.” I had a lot of respect.   Sharon: How did you decide to start writing a blog?  You write a blog. How did that come about?   Barbara: I really enjoy writing, and there are things I wanted to say that the work couldn't say by itself. One of the things I've always been obsessed with since I was a child are charms. When I was five, Sherry Carr across the street from me had a shoebox full of charms, like the bubblegum charms, and I coveted that box. I was obsessed with that box. Every time I would see it, I would be like, “Show me the charms.” I wanted to knock Sherry out so I could get that charm. I started collecting charms at a very young age. They mean a lot to me, and they mean a lot to my clients. I talked about that in one of my blog posts. I think that was one of my first blogs, talking about charms and the meaning they hold for us. I think the spiritual side is important to me, the emotion you put to it and how it goes on the body. It's for the body.   Sharon: Well, you have very eclectic jewelry, very unique jewelry. Barbara, thank you so much for being here today.   Barbara: I loved it. Thanks so much.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: Why being a jewelry artist is like being an engineer How Barbara got her jewelry in the hands of famous rock-and-rollers like David Bowie and the Rolling Stones  Why Barbara doesn't separate her jewelry into women's and men's lines Why talent is only a small part of what it takes to become a successful jeweler About Barbara Klar Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright. Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day. New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer! Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky. Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video. Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains." Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Twitter Blog Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Barbara Klar's jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara's celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.    Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Barbara began her work as a jeweler in 1980 in New York and has grown her business from there. She has a roster of celebrity clients. She has also developed a successful line of men's jewelry. Steve Jordan, who replaced Charlie Watts throughout a recent Rolling Stones tour, sported her jewelry throughout. Most recently, Barbara has become interested in reliquaries. She is also writing a book. We'll hear more about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the program.   Barbara: Thank you, Sharon. I'm so happy to be here talking about my favorite subject, jewelry.   Sharon: So glad to have you. I want to hear about everything going on. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you always like it?   Barbara: I was obsessed with my mother's jewelry box. She wasn't a huge jewelry collector, but she had some gemstone rings from the time my father and her spent in Brazil in the semiprecious capital, Rio. I just loved her selection and got obsessed.    Sharon: Did you decide you wanted to study jewelry then?   Barbara: No, I really didn't. My sister was the artist in the family, and I was always trying to play catch-up with her. Eventually I took a class at Akron University in Akron. Well, I made some jewelry in high school out of ceramics. I loved to adorn myself. I loved fashion. I loved pop culture. I was always looking at what people were wearing, and jewelry was so interesting to me because it was so intimate. It was something you could put on you body, like a ring. You could look at it all the time, and it became part of your persona, part of your identity. Sometimes it represented the birth of a child.    I used to go to the museum in Cleveland a lot, and I started seeing these top knuckle rings on women in the Medieval and Renaissance paintings. I ran home and went to my mother's jewelry box because I remembered she had my sister's baby ring in there. I put it on my little pinkie finger. She saw me wearing it and she got very upset, but I started scouting flea markets until I could find my own top knuckle ring. I wear a lot of them at this point in life.   Sharon: Wow! We'll have to have a picture of that. I can see your fingers. You have a ring on every finger, it looks like.   Barbara: Practically.   Sharon: So, you went to the Cleveland Institute of Art. Did you think you'd be an artist or a graphic designer? What did you think you'd do?   Barbara: Like I said, when I went to Akron University, I studied beginning jewelry. My teacher at the time noticed I had an aptitude, and he said, “If you really want to study jewelry making, you should go to the Cleveland Institute of Art.” At that point, I made an application and I got in.   Sharon: Did you study metalsmithing there? When you say jewelry making, what did you study?   Barbara: It was called metalsmithing. It was a metalsmithing program, and at that point in time, Cleveland had a five-year program. You didn't really hit your major until your third year, so you had a basic foundation of art history and drawing and painting. It was really a great education. I feel like I got a master's of fine arts rather than a bachelor of fine arts. When we studied, our thesis was to do a holloware project. A lot of people did tea sets. I did a fondue set and it took me two years to complete. It was a great training, but it was also very, very frustrating because it was a very male-dominated profession.   Sharon: Do you still have the fondue set?   Barbara: I do. I entered it into a show, and they dropped it and it got dented. I have yet to repair that. Over the years, the forks have gone missing, but I have incredible photographs of it, thank God.   Sharon: Wow! So, you were the only fondue set among all the tea sets.   Barbara: Yeah, I was. I had to be different.   Sharon: You opened your own place right after you graduated. Is that correct?   Barbara: Pretty much. All my friends were moving to New York City, so I said, “Hey, I'll go.” I'd been commuting there because my boyfriend at the time was Jim Jarmusch, and he had moved to Columbia to study. I had been going there off and on for a couple of years and when everybody moved to New York City. I was like, “Why not?” So, I went.   Sharon: How far is it from Cleveland or where you were going to school?    Barbara: It's about 500 miles.   Sharon: So, you would fly?   Barbara: No, I would drive. Those were the days you could find parking in the city.   Sharon: That was a long time ago. I'm impressed that you would open your own place right after you graduated. Some people tell me they knew they could never work for anybody else. Did you have that feeling, or did you just know you wanted your own place?   Barbara: No, I didn't. It took me a couple of years. I was in New York a couple of years. I moved in '79 and I opened my store in '84. One thing I did discover in those five years is that the jobs I did have—thank God my mother insisted that I should have secretarial skills to fall back on in high school. She said, “You're not going to depend on any man.” So, she got me those skills, and I became a very fast typist. I realized eventually that to save my creativity, I needed to have a job that was completely unrelated to jewelry work. I would work during the day, and I found a jewelry store where I could clean the studio in exchange for bench time. I started doing that. A lot of my friends were in rock-and-roll bands, and I started making them stage ware when I could work in the studio for free. It just evolved into that before I opened my store.   Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry business today. Do you still make it?   Barbara: Oh yes, I still make everything. I have one part-time assistant. I no longer wholesale. I do a little bit of gallery work. I wish there was more, but I consider myself semi-retired. I'm trying to work on my book. Mostly I do commission work, and I do maybe one or two shows a year. I like to say I have a cult following that keep me in business.   Sharon: When you say you have a cult following, do rock-and-rollers call you and say, “I need something for a show”? How does that work?   Barbara: Pretty much. I'm lucky enough to have been in this business since 1984, so a lot of my private clients, now their children are shopping with me and they're getting married. It's really nice. I feel very blessed to have that.   Sharon: Yeah, especially if it's a second generation.    Barbara: That means something to me because they have a different sense of style. The fact that they would find my work appealing moves me, makes my heart sing.   Sharon: Do you find that you go along with their sense of style? If you have one style you were doing for their parents, let's say, do you find it easy to adapt? Do you understand what they're saying?   Barbara: I do. I try to understand. First of all, I listen. I'm a good listener, but I'm still old-fashioned. I still like streetwear. I still love pop culture. A lot of times I'll ask them what they're looking for, and I can always tell. Even when I had my store, when somebody would walk into the store, I can get a sense of their style. I'm one of these designers who can design very different, very eclectic work, from simple and modern to intricate and whimsical. That used to be a problem for me in my early days because the powers that be—I had a rep. They were like, “Barbara, your work is so different. Why don't you try to make it coherent?” I couldn't. I tried to and I came up with beautiful lines, but for me, the joy is the variation and never knowing what I'm going to come up with.   Sharon: Is that what's kept your attention about jewelry?   Barbara: I think so. And being challenged by commission work and by getting an idea and trying to make it come to fruition. I actually think jewelry designers are as much architects and engineers as anything else, because you get an idea and you're like, “How am I going to make that happen?” That keeps me inspired and challenged.   Sharon: I remember watching a jeweler making a ring. This was several years ago, but they were talking about how jewelry is engineering because of the balance and all of that.    Barbara: Oh yes, totally. There was time when I really wanted to study CAD. I looked into it a bit, and I realized you also have to be able to draw in order to do CAD. It really helps if you have some knowledge of metalsmithing or jewelry making before you enter into a program like that, because you have to be able to visualize it and see how it's going to come together, how it's technically going to work. That interests me a lot.   Sharon: So, that's not a problem for you. You can do that in terms of visualizing or seeing how it would come together.   Barbara: It's a challenge. I'll find myself getting inspired by an idea and spending a couple of days or even a week thinking about how it's going to be engineered, how it's going to fit together. I made a tiara for the leader of a local performance group. He's very flamboyant, and he sings and has a beautiful band. I made him a crown out of a crystal chandelier that I got at a flea market. It was an engineering challenge. It was really fun.   Sharon: It sounds like it. I don't know if I could even imagine something like that. I wanted to ask you about something you said a little while ago, that you wished there were more galleries who wanted your work. What was it you said?   Barbara: I've been making my living doing limited-production items that sell very well. I have a classic piece—I call it the pirate, which is a lockdown mechanism earring that is kind of my bread and butter. But what I've been doing in my off time is making, like you mentioned in your opening, reliquaries or pieces that are more art than jewelry specifically. That's what I've been doing during Covid and everything. It's like a secret group of pieces I've been working on. It would be nice to have a gallery to show them in, but they're very unique and different, so I haven't found that yet.   Sharon: Tell us a little bit about the reliquaries. Tell us what they look like and what they're supposed to represent.   Barbara: I got obsessed with reliquaries when I was going to the Cleveland Institute of Art because right across the street was the Cleveland Museum of Art. I spent a lot of time there, and they have a fabulous armor hall for armor and a 17th century room that's filled with religious reliquaries. I was fascinated by how these fragments of bone or hair were incorporated into jewelry and what they represented as objects, how people would pray to these things or display these items with great meaning. It really moved me, and I started making them in college covertly. I continued that living through the AIDS crisis and now Covid.    I did some pieces recently for people who had lost their loved ones, incorporating pieces of hair or fragments of letters from their loved ones. I find that so meaningful because you have something to hold in your hands that gives you a link to this person whom you've lost. I made a beautiful reliquary for an ex of mine which was based on the dog they lost. Buddy was its name. I got a piece of the dog's tail when he died and made a little charm out of it. It was under a little window. Then I had another artist make this beautiful portrait of the dog when it was a baby. I made a little locket-type thing that could be put on your desk, or it could be hung on the wall or you could wear it. That's what I describe as tabletop jewelry.    Sharon: That's interesting. When I think of a reliquary, I think of exactly what you're saying, but without the jewelry—a piece of bone, hair, whatever, that people venerate.    Barbara: Yeah, absolutely.   Sharon: How do you incorporate it? You're saying for this piece you put it in a locket, but how else have you incorporated it?    Barbara: Pretty much lockets, things that open. I have another piece I made that was based on a monk. I found a little porcelain painter's image—it was about three inches tall—at a flea market years ago. I could hardly afford it. It was hand-painted porcelain. I kept it in my bench drawer for years, 20 years probably, and one day I pulled it out and thought, “You know, this monk needs to be seen.” So, I made a beautiful locket. It's probably about four inches long that you too can display it on your desk. It has little doors that open, and you can hang it on your wall or you can wear it. It's a very large piece, obviously, if you're going to wear it, but it's a statement piece and it's very precious.   I did this piece actually about 10 years ago after living through the AIDS crisis. My friend, one of my clients, looked at this monk and said, “I know who that is.” I did the research. It's on my blog. It is this monk who was from a very wealthy family that gave his life to treat lepers in Spain. He was the patron saint of healers. It touched me so deeply that I was creating this piece after everything I'd watched and lived through with Covid, with the AIDS crisis.   Sharon: Wow! Do pieces hit you as you're going through a flea market? Do they hit you and you say, “That would be perfect”? How is that?   Barbara: I'm a collector. I collect things. I'm fascinated. I love to look at things. One time at a flea market when I had my store in Soho, I found this—I didn't know what it was. It was like a little skeleton paw. It had no fur on it. It was a little skeleton about two inches long, probably a racoon's hands. I used to make incredible windows to get people to come into the store. It was Halloween. At the same flea market, I had gotten some of the old-fashioned glass milk containers that used to have the paper caps on top. So, I had gotten those, and I thought, “I'm going to do a Lizzie Borden window.” I made Lizzie this incredible watch fob, and hanging from that was this little skeleton paw inside the milk container. It was great. You never know. I sometimes hold onto things until it's like, “Whoa, O.K. Now's the time.”   Sharon: I'm imaging it. It's a drawerful of things, a shoebox full of things that you paw through and say, “Oh, this would be perfect.”   Barbara: Absolutely. That's the great thing about being an artist. You never know when it's going to hit. Like I tell people, I would never not have my studio inside my home, because you never know when you're going to be inspired and have to make something.

Barbara Dalle Pezze, Ph.D. is a coach that changes lives.An internationally recognized global leadership coach, facilitator, speaker andauthor, Barbara distinguishes herself for her capacity to inspire and empower,and for her unique ability to connect and tune in with people from highlydiverse cultures, ages, and backgrounds.John Mattone, the global authority in Intelligent Leadership, world #1 authority inexecutive coaching and former coach of Steve Jobs, says of Barbara: “It israre in the world of leadership coaching to have a coach who combinesincredible intellect, heart, passion and instinct. Barbara Dalle Pezze is a raretalent indeed.” With over 18 years of global experience living and working in China, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, Europe, and United States, Barbara has partnered with global leaders, entrepreneurs, C-Suite Executives of Fortune 500 companies, and members of family-owned businesses, to help them make key paradigm shifts and breakthroughs so that they can effectively create large scale impact in their organization, society, and the world. Barbara has partnered with family law firms and multi-family offices, to support high-net-worth clients to develop leadership competencies (next generation), manage conflicts and enhance cohesiveness within the family. Barbara holds a Ph.D. in Philosophy from The University of Hong Kong, a Masters in Counselling (CBT) from Monash University (Australia), and a Postgraduate Certificate in Human Resources Management and Organization from LUISS Business School, (Italy). Barbara is currently a member of the Leadership Development Faculty for the APEC Region at a top Fortune 500 financial institution. She is Relationships Head at Qineticare (Hong Kong) world's first Family Health Office, President of Intelligent Leadership Coaching International - (ILCI)-Italy and ILCI Board of Directors Member (USA). Barbara is visiting professor at SFU, Beedie School of Business (Canada), where she teaches Negotiation and Conflict Resolution at the MBA program. Barbara is I.L. certified Executive Coach and Master Trainer (JM Global LLC, USA), a certified Behavioral Assessor and Primary Interviewer in assessment and development centers for top executives (A&DC, UK), a certified Resilience Feedback Coach (A&DC- UK), a certified NLP Master Practitioner (The NLP Center of New York – USA), a certified Generative Coach (NLP School of London), a Brain Health Coach (certified with Dr. Daniel Amen, USA), a certified Havening Techniques Practitioner (USA), and a Certified Divorce Specialist (The NADP, USA). In 2021 Barbara has published her third book, «The Unexpected Gift. Emerging Anew After The Unthinkable», a powerful memoir that reveals the inspiring true-life story of one woman's journey to self-discovery and renewal after the implosion of her marriage. Barbara is currently writing her new book «Reinventing yourself. 7 Steps to renewal and transformation». Barbara has presented at conferences in Asia, Australia, Europe, Africa and the US, and she is passionate about changing the conversation about women, diversity and inclusion, to one that inspires gender and intergenerational collaboration. Contact: bidi@barbaradallepezze.com +39 3773503646 To learn more go to:https://linktr.ee/rebeccaewhitmanThis is The Quickest & Easiest Way To Your Own Side Hustle!Show me how----->https://balancedbeautifulabundant.com/

Barbara Dalle Pezze, Ph.D. is an internationally recognized coach, leadership development expert and author, distinguished by her capacity to inspire and empower, and by her unique ability to connect and tune in with people from highly diverse cultures and backgrounds. John Mattone, global authority in Intelligent Leadership, world #1 authority in executive coaching and former coach of Steve Jobs, says of Barbara: “It is rare in the world of executive coaching to have a coach who combines incredible intellect, heart, passion and instinct. Barbara Dalle Pezze is a rare talent indeed Let's see how she Get up, Dress up, and Show up! CONNECT WITH HER https://www.barbaradallepezze.com/ Personal transformation takes time, subscribe now, and let's grow together!  ----------------------------------------­­­­­­­----------------

Barbara Dalle Pezze, Ph.D., is an internationally recognized coach, leadership development expert, and author. She is distinguished by her capacity to inspire and empower and by her unique ability to connect and tune in with people from highly diverse cultures and backgrounds.John Mattone, global authority in intelligent leadership, world's No. 1 authority in executive coaching and former coach of Steve Jobs, says of Barbara: “It is rare in the world of executive coaching to have a coach who combines incredible intellect, heart, passion, and instinct. Barbara Dalle Pezze is a rare talent indeed.”With over 18 years of global experience living and working in China, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, Europe, and the U.S., Barbara has partnered with executives, CEOs, entrepreneurs, members of family offices, and young talents, to help them make key paradigm shifts and breakthroughs, so they can effectively create large-scale changes in society and the world.Barbara believes there are rarely solutions to problems that do not begin in the hearts and minds of people; hence, she focuses her work on the inner workings of leadership.https://www.barbaradallepezze.com/Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/The_Josh_Bolton_Show)

What you'll learn in this episode: How Barbara discovered she could combine gold leaf and enamel for jewelry that withstands daily wear What types of custom work has proven popular for Évocateur Why it was important for Évocateur jewelry to be made in the U.S. and sold at an affordable price point How Barbara moved from corporate finance to jewelry, even with no formal schooling or industry connections About Barbara Ross-Innamorati For ÉVOCATEUR Founder and Designer Barbara Ross-Innamorati, the love of fashion, art and design has always been hardwired into her creative DNA. Many years ago, Barbara became fascinated with and passionate about gold leaf, particularly the way it can transform even the most ordinary objects into something extraordinary and magical. As someone who always loved jewelry, Barbara went on a mission to adapt 22K gold leaf to jewelry design. After years of research and trial and error, she perfected the proprietary technique for which ÉVOCATEUR is now known. Today, these opulent designs are infused with inspiration from Barbara's extensive travels throughout the U.S., Europe, Africa and Asia. All of the designs have a sophisticated and unique spirit. From their Connecticut studio, Barbara and a team of skilled artisans design and individually craft each piece, wrapping them in 22K gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Using an intricate process, the jewelry is gilded and burnished by hand and is fabricated over a period of five days, resulting in an exquisite work of art, each piece finished to a rich patina. With only the finest materials used and impeccable attention to detail, ÉVOCATEUR celebrates the compelling relationship between art and fashion. The line, which includes cuffs, bangles, pendants, and earrings, can be found in premier jewelry retail stores throughout the United States and the rest of the world. Additional Links Évocateur Instagram Évocateur Website Photo: Transcript: For most of her life, Barbara Ross-Innamorati didn't think jewelry would ever be more than a hobby to her. Little did she know that she would later invent an entirely new category of jewelry. Her company, Évocateur, specializes in gilded jewelry covered in gold and silver leaf and artistic motifs. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her innovative technique, where she hopes her company will go next, and why she wants everyone to know that it's possible to start a second chapter in life. Read the episode transcript below.    Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Barbara Ross-Innamorati, designer and founder of the jewelry company Évocateur. Her jewelry features 22-carat gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Her line is sold around the world, and we'll hear about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the podcast. Barbara: Thank you, it's very good to be here. Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It sounds like you invented—it's not the right word, but we'll talk more about it. Barbara: No, that is close to the right word, Sharon. We're an 11 ½-year-old company. We were established in 2009, but my jewelry journey probably began decades ago. I trace it back to when I was a student in London. I went to an art exhibit, and it was a retrospective of Gustave Klimt, the famous expressionist artist. I saw the painting “The Kiss” there, and even being 20-something, I was struck by something I saw in the painting, and that was gold leaf. I didn't know what gold leaf was; I was just mesmerized by it and it stuck with me. I went on to finish college and got married, started work and had kids, and then I'd say about 12 or 13 years ago, the gold leaf came back to me, because I'd always loved jewelry. I had a wonderful collection of my own jewelry, and I got it in my mind, thinking, “Why can't we make jewelry that features gold leaf?” We have less expensive plated fashion jewelry, and then you have fine jewelry. There's got to be something in between, and there's got to be something we can use gold leaf on. Gold leaf is different than plating; it's actual sheets of gold. So, I went on in this fashion, to try and adapt 18-carat or 22-carat gold leaf to jewelry. It was a long process. I had no background in jewelry. I had never taken a jewelry class, not even an art class, although I loved art and I had a vision of what I wanted this to look like. 18 months later, through trial and error, I finally had a product, and I have to trace it back to that day at the National Gallery in London when I saw that painting.  We have, in the process, continued to evolve over the last 11 ½ years. It was something we couldn't read in a book; I couldn't read in a book. No one was doing it the way I was doing it, or at least getting the look I wanted. People had used gold leaf as accents on beads, but no one was wrapping it the way we had come up with through this process. I say “we” because over the years, even though I invented this process, my incredible team—and we're 100 percent woman owned and operated—has continued to progress and evolve and innovate to make this a much better process and product in the meantime. Even our signature flecking, which is little bits of gold, that was kind of an accident. The first time I was trying to get gold leaf on a cuff base, the little pieces of gold—gold leaf is as thin as a butterfly's wing—would break off and end up all over the image. That was an accident, but I looked at it and said, “That gives it a unique vintage, one-a-kind look.”  It's been a very interesting journey. We have brought together two materials that heretofore haven't been brought together, and that's gold leaf and enamel. In fact, when we have a product issue—and we've had many over the years, because we are blazing a trail in this process and product—I couldn't talk to my gold leaf guy in Florence, Italy, and I couldn't talk to my enamel guy in Rhode Island, because their materials had never been married together, so to speak. We had to solve things here, not in the tools that we use, but the entire process. So, that's how it began. I'm proud to say we've created this entire newly category of gilded jewelry, and it's been a long process. Sharon: It's an amazing story. Do you have metalsmithing or chemistry experience? Did you have any kind of background? Barbara: I have an MBA in corporate finance. I was an investment banker and corporate finance person before I did this, so no. I hope that's inspirational to people who think they can't do something. You just keep at it. I wasn't intimidated by not being from the industry. Sharon: Is that just your personality? It's intimidating. So many people grew up in jewelry families or they were chemists or something. Is that just you, you're not intimidated? Barbara: I think it was passion; I can't even tell you. I remember being up until 2, 3, 4 in the morning experimenting. The hardest part of this was not just getting the very thin gold leaf or silver leaf on a base, but how to seal it, because gold leaf heretofore has been used in the decorative arts. You see it on domes or churches. In New York, we have several buildings that have gold domes as well as gold statues. Those statues are covered with gold leaf, and when you put it on an object or even furniture, it's not sitting against someone's skin. It's gold; you don't have to seal it. Silver leaf, you have to seal because it will tarnish, so I had to find the right sealant that would protect it but not destroy it. It's sitting against a woman's wrist or her neck where there might be oils and sweat, and I had to find a way to protect that. I was passionate about gold leaf and loved art, and now we have a product that combines original art and gold leaf that's all made in the U.S. It's all made right here in Connecticut. Sharon: Wow! That's very unusual. Did you find people who knew how to seal it? Barbara: No, I tried many different materials, and I would wear it and stress test it. I remember finally the third material, which is a type of enamel, was the one that worked. It was hard because not only was I unschooled in this, but there was no school where I could learn this.  Sharon: You do the design of the jewelry. You're the designer, right? Barbara: Yes, we design everything here. We work with graphic artists and we have different types of designs. We also work with contemporary artists to put their artwork on our jewelry. You can go to our website and see Monet's Water Lilies or Van Gogh's Starry Night. These are all in the public domain, so we can use them without paying any type of royalty or rights. However, we also work with contemporary artists. We take their artwork and pay them a royalty to use their art on our jewelry. We also work with Erté, who was a famous—he did many things: costume designer, sculptor, artist. We work with a company that owns all of his artwork, and we have an entire line devoted to his art.  Sharon: Yes, that was surprising. I always think of the female statue—I don't know if it's in crystal, but that's what I think of when I think of him. He was a him, right? Barbara: Yeah, his actual name was Romain de Tirtoff. He was Russian-born, but when you said his initials, which are R and T, in French, it's pronounced Erté. Sharon: In today's world that's also unusual. You're looking at antiques like that, but not contemporary so much. They're beautiful. Tell us how you describe your jewelry to people when they ask what you do. What do you say to them? Barbara: We're obviously very art-driven jewelry, but I think we're colorful, whimsical, attainable. Everything retails for under $400. These are handmade pieces that take six to seven days to process. It is made, as in mentioned, in Norwalk, Connecticut, and it features 22-carat gold leaf. It's very artistic, but it's also travel jewelry in a way. That's another thing I point out; you get a lot of bang for the buck. It's bold, although we do have different widths. We go down to as narrow as a ¾-inch cuff. Earring silhouettes go from the smallest studs to the largest 2-inch tear drops. The same thing with our necklaces, but we do have that bold, gold look Sharon: It's beautiful. I happen to love cuff bracelets. You have some fabulous cuff bracelets. Barbara: Thank you. It's fun jewelry; whimsical, art-driven and unique. The other thing is that each piece is like a snowflake because it's handmade. The gilding will go on differently each time, especially the flecking, the little bits of gold or silver, so that each piece is really, truly like a snowflake. We can't replicate it. The image can be replicated, but the application of the gold leaf can't.  Sharon: That's amazing. Did you target that specific price point? Barbara: We launched our business in the middle of a recession, the 2008-2009 recession, and there was a lot of price resistance and price sensitivity. I tried hard to keep it under a certain price. There is a target, I guess. That's correct, that we try to be conscious of the price level. Sharon: It sounds like you had to go through so many iterations to develop the prototypes and find the one where you said, “O.K., we're ready to go.” How did you feel? Did you know when you saw it?  Barbara: Yeah, everything has to speak to me. I have to feel it.  Sharon: How did you feel then? Did you know when you saw it? Like, “I've done 400 prototypes, but this is it”? Barbara: The biggest challenge for me was finding the right enamel. It's what is called a cold enamel. It has to air cure. We can't fire it because of the gold leaf. When I got up the next morning and felt it and touched it after it had cured, I felt like, “Yeah, this is it.” Then, of course, I had to wear it. I would wear it for three or four weeks every day to stress test it because, as I said, we blazed a new trail here. There was no way for us to know if this was going to work. Sharon: I'm amazed that you've been so successful with it. It's so far afield from what you did before and what your education was in. l understand that you didn't study as an artist. You didn't study as a chemist or a metalsmith. Barbara: I had to learn a lot about chemistry while working with the enamels. We had problems, all kinds of issues that would—like if your studio is too humid, we've had issues with that. If the enamel doesn't cure correctly, then we have to file it off and start again. It's a laborious process. We've tried to short circuit it over the years, but the look is not the same.  Sharon: No, it sounds like a laborious process. Barbara: But it's very rewarding. Being relatively new to this industry, obviously there are a lot of challenges, but there's so much joy that we can be part of something happy and positive for the most part. I hear from customers and from our retailers what their customers are saying, especially when we do a custom cuff. I'm sure most jewelers and designers know what I'm talking about when you feel that “wow.” You made a difference. You're part of an important milestone. Maybe you're just part of someone's everyday life, but they get so much joy out of wearing something. That's something I never take for granted, because I never had a job like that, frankly, never. This is the first time. Sharon: What kind of custom work are people asking you for? To mark an anniversary or a trip? Barbara: We do so many different types of custom. This is probably our largest-growing segment right now. We can take any digital image—of course, we have to make sure it looks good—but we can take any digital image that any customer has and create a piece of jewelry from it that's embedded into the gold leaf or silver leaf. We do a lot of dogs. We do a lot of horses. Kids are a distant third behind pets. We've done cats. We've done a lot of map cups, mostly for our retailers. We'll find beautiful maps and we'll put it on a cup or a necklace, and then it becomes our retailer's signature piece. We've done Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston—you name the city, we have a map cup or earring or necklace to go with it.  We've done those types of customs, but then we've done very personal pieces for the retail customer as opposed to the retailer. It really is all over the place. We actually put somebody's car on one. She had a Ferrari, and she wanted a picture of her in her Ferrari on a cuff, so she sent this photo. She loved that. For a mother's day gift, one was a picture of somebody's childhood home. That was through one of our retailers. It was given to her mother. It was their home, and apparently the mother just wept when she got this cup. It's fun. It's very personal. If you can digitize it, we can generally create a beautiful piece of jewelry from it. Sharon: Wow! It's endless what you can do in terms of custom work. It's not surprising to me that pets are first. The first thing that flew into my mind was maybe a family picture, but when I think about things that make me smile—it sounds horrible—it's my dogs. Barbara: We've done a lot of dogs that have passed. When they pass, the owner really wants to commemorate them on a necklace or a cuff. There's always a story. That's the other thing; with all kinds of jewelry, there's always a story, and that's what I love. I like to think our jewelry has a strong narrative. In fact our name, “Évocateur,” means evocative. That's because when I started wearing my jewelry, when it was still just a hobby and I was trying to figure things out, people would ask me questions. They'd say, “That's really unique,” or “Why is there a butterfly on that cuff?” It would evoke conversations and connections, and for me it would evoke nice memories of a trip, for example. That's what I mean. Sharon: The Kiss is at the Neue Galerie right now, isn't it? Do you go visit that because it's so much closer than London right now? Barbara: Yeah, I've been to Neue Galerie on the Upper East Side of New York. It's a beautiful museum. Sharon: Oh, it's great. Barbara: Very inspirational. We also have the Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer, which is another famous painting of his. We put that on a cuff as well. Sharon: Beautiful! The price point is approachable, not off-putting, and you can customize so many things. What's one thing we haven't talked about? What's one thing I haven't covered that you think people should know? Barbara: This is definitely a second chapter for me. As I mentioned, my background was very different. Had I not lost my job—I had a really nice job and was downsized—this would have never happened. I think it's important for people to realize that sometimes great things come in not-so-nice packages. There's always a second chapter, no matter where you are or how old you are. Things can happen that may not look so great at the time, as I said, but I can guarantee you—because I had a great job, and there was no reason for me to leave that job—I can guarantee you that if my hand hadn't been forced and I hadn't started playing around with my hobby, that Évocateur would have never happened. I'd still be in that job, or maybe another job that's similar. That is an important message for anyone who finds himself in a less than desirable position or in something they didn't plan.  The other thing that's interesting is that the event that launched us was the lineup at Open See at Henri Bendel. Unfortunately Henri Bendel no longer exists in New York, but this was a semiannual audition, if you will, where any designer could line up, preferably between 5 and 6 a.m. if you wanted to be seen. The lines were long. Anyone could line up in certain categories, and the buyers at Henri Bendel would see them. It was called the Open See; it was very famous, and I decided I was going to go and present our collections. It was successful for us because they accepted us in, and that's really how we were launched. It gave me the commercial validation that I needed to turn this from a hobby into something more. That's the other interesting Évocateur historical info. Sharon: That's quite a launch. It's inspirational. I can see so many people saying, “Oh, they wouldn't be interested,” or they're not willing to be rejected. Barbara: Whenever you're an entrepreneur, you've got to realize that you're going to get rejections. It's par for the course, and you need a lot of internal fortitude. So much of what I've done is hard. There's no question. It's hard owning a business and creating something from nothing, which is what we did. Even when you start a business—maybe you have a product that does exist, but you still have to start it. Anytime you start something from nothing, you don't inherit it; you don't buy into it; but you're starting with zero, you're going to have rejection. You need a lot of passion for what you're doing and a lot of, like I said, internal fortitude to keep going. It's not easy, but it is rewarding. There are lots of highs, lots of lows. Sharon: It sounds very rewarding. It's the risk of living, but it sounds very rewarding. Thank you so much. It was a very inspirational story. I wish you continued success and growth, and it sounds like you'll have it in the future. It's coming; how can it not? Barbara: It's been an interesting ride. My biggest achievement to date, I think, is that we survived 2020. I'm serious. Sharon: I'm laughing, but I know— Barbara: My team is still here and we're still working away. Trade shows are coming back, and I'm optimistic for this year and the following year. Sharon: The fact that you're still here is quite an accomplishment. Thank you so much, Barbara, for talking with us today, and much luck as you move forward. Barbara: Thank you so much, Sharon. It's been a pleasure. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Keys to a Healthy Marriage Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Barbara Rainey likens intimacy in marriage to a secret garden—a place that only a husband and wife go together. She says it's a risky place.Barbara: It is a place of raw exposure. It is a place of being real with one another. It is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship, so we need the walls of a commitment. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place.Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 6th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today about how a husband and wife can work together to cultivate the secret garden of their marriage. Stay with us.1:00And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. It's been almost a year now since the release of your wife's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're finally getting around to Chapter 6— Dennis: You've got— Barbara: —which rhymes with—[Laughter] Dennis: —you've got a cheesy grin on your face. Bob: You—you know, Chapter— Dennis: The listeners can't see your face! [Laughter] Bob: —six!—six. If you replace one letter in “six,” you get an idea of what we're going to be talking about— Dennis: Well— Bob: —today. Dennis: Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, has flown off the shelf. It's really doing well. I understand why, because I think this is Barbara's best book ever. It is certainly a very honest look at our marriage. I want to welcome her back to the broadcast. Thanks for coming back in, Sweetheart. Barbara: I'm happy to be here. Dennis: I know you are. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I know you are. Since we're going to talk about s—s—s— Bob: Sex. Just say it—sex. Dennis: Chapter 6. Barbara: It is not that hard for you to say! [Laughter] 2:00 Bob: You've heard him say it before?  Barbara: I don't think it's that hard for him to say! [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to pray for our audience; because as I was preparing to come in here, reading Barbara's book, I thought: “You know? Oh my! How broken are we as human beings—how many different perspectives we come at this subject.” There are some listeners who've been hurt deeply by their past choices and some are in present relationships. I just want God to intervene and minister to—whether they're single, married, divorced, single parents—I just want to ask God to meet every person where they are:  Father, You made us, male and female. There is no surprise in terms of how we function. You made us to merge together and become one.  3:00 Yet, what You designed, man has degenerated and has twisted. You know that as well.  You know where each listener is, who is tuning in to our broadcast today. I just would ask You to be gentle with each of them. Use these broadcasts, I pray, to minister to them just where they are. Produce some hope, some help, and some encouragement to each person listening. For the guys, who are listening in, Father, I pray that they might listen with some understanding. We tend to be too quick to judgment on this subject. I pray for all of us just to be wise in terms of what we hear and what we apply. In Christ's name I pray. Amen. Bob: Amen. Barbara this is a subject that obviously is personal—it's intimate—it really does get to the core of who we are as human beings. It can be threatening for a lot of people.  4:00 I was very interested—as you invited your daughters and daughters-in-law to ask questions about marriage, the first question you got related to this—I'm just going to read it from the book——it says: “So yeah. Sex. You gave me “the talk,” and we had our pre-wedding conversation that was pretty short and hurried. No offense; it was busy. I get it. But now I'm married. And it's um…different. Fine. FINE. But, well, I have to ask this…what's the big deal?” I thought that was an interesting question from a daughter to say, “I'm in the midst of it, but I'm not sure I understand why it's as big a deal as people say it is.” Barbara: It's a great question. You know, it was one that I just had to think about a lot. Actually, I had to think about all these questions a lot because, as Dennis prayed, this topic—this part of our marriage relationship—is not easy.  5:00 It's not simple. It's not cut and dry / it's not black and white. It's very complicated; and even though it's very good, it's very complicated. My short answer to “What is the big deal?” is that it takes a long, long time to understand what God has built into us, as men and women. It takes a while to understand the purpose of sex. It takes a while to undo things that we've brought into our marriage. It just takes time. I think, in our culture today, more than in any other generation, we expect instant results in every area of our lives. We're so used to having instant access to information. We just don't know how to wait—we don't know how to persevere. We don't know how to have patience.    I think, in this area of marriage, our expectation for change to happen quickly and for results to be mastered fast, is a misplaced hope; because I think, in the long run, the goal of marriage is a marathon—  6:00 —it's a lifetime race. Figuring out why it's a big deal takes a lot of time. It's me getting to know my husband, as a man, and him getting to know me, as a woman. That isn't going to take place quickly. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, as it describes two people becoming one—there was a progression that God declared. He said, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one [emphasis added].” One of the problems, Bob—and many of our listeners may be experiencing this right now—we have reversed the order. Bob: Yes. Dennis: We're trying to become one without the leaving and the cleaving—the commitment that really bonds two broken human beings hearts to one another and gives you the only chance of two broken people experiencing marriage for a lifetime, as Barbara was talking about here.  7:00 Bob: Barbara, explain to our listeners why, for a wife / for a woman this issue of a solid commitment is so critical when it comes to intimacy. Barbara: In the book I tell the story of a book that we used to read when our kids were growing up, called The Secret Garden. It's the story of a young woman / a young girl, who grew up in a huge manor estate in England. As she was growing up there, she discovered this garden; and it was a secret garden. It had walls all the way around it that were six to eight feet tall, brick or stone walls. As she dug though the ivy, she found a door. The door was locked and she couldn't get in. Over time, she began to continue to dig around. One day, she found a key and was able to unlock the door and go in.  I use that story in the book because I liken this area of our marriage—this intimacy / this sex in our marriage—to a secret garden.  8:00 It's a place that only a husband and wife go together—no one else is allowed. It is for them only. I think the reason commitment is so important is because it is a place of raw exposure—it is a place of being real with one another—it is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship. We need the walls that that secret garden had. We need the walls of a commitment. We need that security, as women in particular, but men need it as well for us to experience what God intended for us to experience in marriage. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place. Bob: You're talking about something that goes far beyond just the biological experience of intimacy— 9:00 Barbara: Absolutely! Bob: —because the biology may not need that, but the oneness we're talking about here— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —really requires that we can trust one another— Dennis: Yes. Bob: —in order to be vulnerable with one another. Dennis: In fact, Bob, I think what you're hitting on here is so important. I think one of the least understood passages in Scripture—there's a reason why we can't understand it—Genesis, Chapter 2, verse 25. I'm going to read it and then I'm going to explain why we don't understand it—it says, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” That verse comes right after the leave, cleave, and become one. The reason we can't understand what that means—we have never experienced what Adam and Eve did in the garden before the fall. Barbara: That's right; yes. 10:00 Dennis: Two people, totally naked, totally exposed, totally transparent with one another—and there was no shame. There was joy / there was delight—there was the experience of God and one another—there was no hiding in a marriage back then.  When it comes to the subject of sex, I think we're trying to get to that point of being naked and unashamed; but we don't know how to get there. So a lot of single people are co-habiting—they're thinking they can experience the sexual delights of marriage without the commitment— Bob: Right. Dennis: —and they can't! Barbara's talking about a commitment that creates safety around this garden. Bob: There is something about being able to say: “You're safe. I'm not going anywhere. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I will not expose what happens here. You can be who you are and still be loved.” That's what we long for— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —and that is what is supposed to be going on in intimacy in a marriage relationship. 11:00 Barbara: That's what we get married for—we get married to be loved unconditionally. That's our expectation and our hope when we say, “I do”; but we don't realize that it's not just the physical oneness that produces that. It's all of the conversations—it's learning to be, as Dennis just said, naked and unashamed. That does not happen quickly. If you'll think about what happened in Genesis—after that verse where Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed—and then, when the fall happened, what was the first thing that Adam and Eve experienced?   Bob: Their shame. Barbara: Their shame and they were afraid. Bob: Yes. Barbara: I think we vastly underestimate the fears that we bring into marriage. All of us come into marriage with fears, even if we don't have past experiences that were negative or were difficult. We still have the fear of rejection; we have the fear of exposure; we have the fear of being known—  12:00 —just the question, “If you really knew me as I am inside—as I know I am inside—would he still love me?” A man thinks the same thing, “If she really knew what I thought—if she really knew who I was—would she still accept me?”  I think that fear—that we all bring into a marriage—takes time to expose those fears because it's a risk to do so. It takes time to work toward that place of being unashamed. It doesn't ever totally go away, because it won't until we go to heaven; but we can make great progress / we can make great strides in that comfort level that we all long for when we get married. Dennis: That's exactly right.  I have to use a present-day illustration, Bob, of something that really makes me sad—but immediately after the evening news / the local news here, there's one of these Hollywood reports. It always is telling of some breakup of some Hollywood marriage.  13:00 I really feel a great deal of compassion, because they don't understand the God who made this relationship and how He made them to function. In their lost-ness, they're just trying to reach out to one another and experience that oneness and experience the intimacy of a great relationship.  But I've got to tell you—Barbara and I have been married 44 years—and there have been a lot of incredible highs and sadly, some tough, tough lows. The thing that has kept us safe and secure in our relationship is we've never/ever used the “D” word—divorce. It has never crossed our lips. We have used the “C” word—covenant-keeping love for a lifetime. In the process of doing that, two imperfect people are wobbling their way to the finish line, attempting to represent how God designed marriage to proclaim His love to the world; because a marriage is to be a model of Christ and the church.  14:00 It is representative of a husband who loves, serves, leads, and gives his life on behalf of his wife—and a wife who supports her husband and loves him back. One of the ways they both do this is through the gift of sexual intimacy in marriage. Bob: Barbara, I had to smile when I read this letter from your daughter, saying, “So, what's the big deal?” for two reasons. One is because there is a stereotype that says: “This is how women view sex in marriage.” Men are very different. I stop to think to myself, “Would a man ever write to his father, ‘So Dad—' Barbara: “What's the big deal?” [Laughter] Bob: —“'What's the big deal? We're married now. I don't get it—what's the big deal?'” I also smiled because there's a sense in which the mystery of marital intimacy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —is just beginning to unfold in the early days of marriage; right? 15:00 Barbara: That's a word that I use a lot in my book—is the word, “mystery,”—because I think it helps us be more at peace with the process. When we realize that marriage is a mystery—that we will never, totally understand it—because, as Dennis just said, it is a picture of Christ's relationship with us. Just accepting the fact that marriage is a mystery kind of gives you a sense of: “Ah! I can rest. I can relax.” It is a mystery and it is a process of beginning to discover what God has built in this, all along, from the very beginning. As we've been saying, it's about getting to know one another and being transparent with one another. Dennis: When we think of a mystery, we think of an unsolved murder case or a crime. Bob: —a puzzle. Dennis: Yes; exactly. This mystery is going to be revealed—[Laughter] —in heaven, in eternity, with Jesus Christ and the church at the wedding feast of the bridegroom and the bride—the church being the bride.  16:00 In between time, between now—this thing called “time”—and eternity, here you are, as a couple, hammering out your commitment and attempting to be naked and unashamed in a way that honors God. It's tough, and it's hard. I would ask you, Barbara, as a young wife might come to you—what would you say is the most important thing she needs to know as she approaches this most intimate area of the marriage relationship? What does she need to know and do? Barbara: I think the first thing she needs to know—and she may already know this—but I think it bears repeating—and that is that marriage is holy. I think that when we see it as—not just a gift, not just a privilege, not just something we get to experience—but there is an element of marriage that has a holy aspect to it; because God created it and because He lives in our lives, there is a holiness there.  17:00 I think that helps us put it in right perspective—it helps us go: “Well no wonder it's so hard! No wonder it's a challenge to discover the kind of oneness that we got married for.” Secondly, from there, I want to say, too, that I would strongly encourage any young wife to remember that it's an important part of the relationship. It's really a mirror of the rest of your relationship. You may feel like you're having good sex; but if you're not really becoming one—if you're not really being transparent with one another—then you're not going to be really growing together in other areas of your relationship.  It's important that you keep that area of your marriage healthy and growing and keep it alive. The temptation is—when it gets hard, is to just say, “Well, forget it!” but you can't give up on it because it's one of the important parts that God has built into a marriage. Because God created it and God sanctioned it, then we need to learn what He wants us to do with it—we need to figure it out. 18:00 Bob: You know a lot of wives, who are saying, “I hear you and I agree with you; and if I was not tired all the time,— Barbara: Yes. Bob: “—I would give more attention to this! But I am tired all the time! How do I make this a priority, and how do I make it important when I'm exhausted?” Barbara: Did you read that in my book? Bob: Well, I did. Yes! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; I talk about that in the book, because that is such a common complaint for women. I get it! I was tired all the time—and Dennis used to say he would be a very wealthy man if he had a dollar for every time I said, “I am so tired!” [Laughter] Right? Dennis: Right! [Laughter] Barbara: But even if we are so tired—and we are—and a lot of women are exhausted all the time because of the responsibilities of jobs and kids—and just the emotional weight of being in life. There are just so many ups and downs that we feel so deeply; and yet, it's learning to prioritize your life.  19:00 It's deciding, during a particular day, that you're going to take a nap so you've got more energy for your husband at night or it's choosing not to add these things to your schedule so that you can have more energy and more focus for your marriage. It's choosing to keep your marriage a priority—make it a priority. That's hard to do sometimes. There were plenty of times when I would take a nap in the afternoon and I'd still be exhausted at night. Dennis: That's correct! [Laughter] Barbara: It's not a quick and easy solution. [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to insert something. There are men, who are listening right now: “That's right! She's just tired too much.” To which I would say to the guys: “Are you cleaning up the kitchen— Bob: Yes. Dennis: “—after dinner? Are you helping to get the kids ready for bed?—brush their teeth, read them a story, pray with them. Get down on your knees, next to them, and look them in the eyes and ask them how their day was,”—but take some of your wife's load off of her and assume it yourself!  20:00 There is a concept in the Bible called “bearing one another's burdens.” I do think some guys—they want sex, but they don't want the process of loving—that means nourishing, which is creating growth—and cherishing, which is creating value— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —they don't want to do that with their wife. When you help your wife with her household duties, with the kids and all—you're making a statement of value to your wife that she ultimately will hear. Bob: I have to ask you about the wife, who would say, “This is a priority for me— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“but it's less a priority for my husband.”  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Let me first of all, though, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of the book that you've written, which is called Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You address, not only this subject, but you address a variety of subjects—letters that your daughters and daughters-in-law have written to you over the years, asking questions about being a godly wife and how you've responded to those letters that they've written.  21:00 You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of the book; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order by phone. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Dennis: Bob, I just want to say a word to our listeners. When you buy a book from FamilyLife Today, you're helping to keep this radio broadcast on the air. I've got to tell you—the people who really float this ship right here, to keep FamilyLife Today broadcasting, are Legacy Partners. They're people who give, every month, and who say: “I want to keep this kind of right-thinking—a biblical approach to marriage, to sex, to intimacy—I want to keep this on the air in my community; because this is going to make a difference in a lot of people's lives.” I just want to say, “Thanks,” to Legacy Partners right now: “Thank you for making this broadcast possible.” Bob: If you'd like to join the Legacy Partner team, we could use more Legacy Partners.  22:00 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link, where it says, “Donate.” There's information available there about becoming a Legacy Partner. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Barbara Rainey has joined us today. We've been talking about Chapter 6 in her book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara, we started the conversation with a letter that you got from one of your daughters, saying, “What's the big deal?” There are some wives, who have been listening to us have this conversation, and they have said, “My question is: ‘Why isn't this a bigger deal— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“'for my husband? I'm ready. In fact, I feel robbed, or starved, or like there's something wrong with me! What do I do?” Barbara: I interviewed a couple of young women when I wrote this particular portion of the chapter because I wanted to know what they thought, and what they felt, and what they were experiencing. It's interesting—I don't have statistics to back this up—but I did do some research and talked to a number of different counselors and different people.  23:00 I think, oftentimes, there are issues in a young man's life that are keeping him from wanting to have sex with his wife; and typically, it's pornography.  In the women that I talked to—when I was preparing to write this chapter—that was the issue with most of these young men. There was so much shame attached to them as men / as young men because they were exposed, when they were children or when they were teenagers, and they just didn't know how to handle it—they still don't know how to handle it. That shame is keeping them from wanting to be one, sexually, with their wife.  Whether it is pornography or whether it is something else, the encouragement that I got from those that I talked to and that I would offer to you is that this is a concern that you need to carry with him. Dennis just mentioned, a minute ago, the verse, “Bear one another's burdens.” Once you become married, your burdens become one another's. You need to carry those burdens together. 24:00 I would encourage a wife, who is in that situation, to say to her husband: “You know, I know this is hard; and this is hard for me too. Let's go find someone who can help us; because I'm committed to you for a lifetime, and you agreed to be committed to me for a lifetime. Let's figure out what we need to do. Let's find what challenges we need to face. Let's do the work together to make our marriage what God intended it to be.” I know—from talking to these women—that it can change / it can be redeemed. God can change those broken places in both of our lives and bring you to a place where marriage is what you wanted it to be and where sex, in particular, is as God designed it to be. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. 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This is the 6th annual episode with Barbara. Andrew and Barbara talk about making change. The challenges in trying to notice the end before feels like it has gone too far past us. The talk about the last year and the grand changes that are coming for both of them in 2020.  They also recorded a bonus for the Patreon on how to tell if something is fate or not. You can get access to that and all the great bonus material by signing up over here.  You can catch all the previous episodes here on my website. Or look up episodes 22, 44, 58, 72, and 90 where you listen to your podcast.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Barbara through her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. This week I am catching up with Barbara Moore just before the end of the year for our annual podcast episode where we check in on what's going on, what's changed, and, [00:00:17] you know, talk a lot about the shifting perspectives in our spiritual lives and practices and so on. You know, it's hard to imagine people don't know who you are, Barbara, certainly anyone in the tarot world, but for those who don't, who are you? [00:00:32] BARBARA: Oh, I forgot about this part of the interview. Yes. My name is Barbara Moore. I've been playing with tarot for, I don't know, maybe 30 years now. I'm probably best known for [00:00:47] a couple of things: one, creating tarot decks and writing books to go with them, and a few stand alone books as well, and I'm also the tarot acquisitions editor for Llewellyn, and I sometimes do some work for Lo Scarabeo as well. [00:01:02] And I teach here and there. ANDREW: Awesome. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, you know, one of the things that I wanted to talk about with you was, it seems like [00:01:17] for me, everything's changed, you know, since our last podcast, I have gotten divorced, and my ex has moved out. I had a fire that burned down my store, and I have since reopened and, you know, opened a studio [00:01:32] to see clients out of and opened a new store. And, so for me, it's been a massive year of change, you know, perhaps unsurprisingly, if you follow the tarot birth card, year card business, as my death card just ended [00:01:47] at the beginning of the month, but it's also been a year of or at least a time of change for you too, right? Like you're also, maybe not quite where I am on the other side of it, but really sort of [00:02:02] setting in motion a bunch of change for yourself as well. Right? BARBARA: [00:02:17] That is absolutely true. The cycle of change, I would say it started back in 2016, and it has ushered in a period of challenge and becoming stronger and having things ripped away to find out what really matters, [00:02:33] and, as your listeners, if they've been listening to our conversations know, that two years ago, I moved to California, my wife and I moved to California, and we've been having a great adventure as [00:02:48] well as a lot of challenges and struggles. And we have recently come to the conclusion that this has been a really fun adventure, and we're grateful that we had it, but it's time for the adventure to be over, and so we [00:03:03] will be moving sometime this summer. So that is a really big change that we can talk about. It's not like having a store burn down or having a divorce, a relationship, a marriage end, [00:03:20] but our relationship also has gone through some struggles, luckily came out the other end stronger and better, richer and deeper, but it's still, we're both like two different people now, so it's [00:03:35] almost like a new relationship because we're learning to be together in new ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know and one of the . . . one of the things that people always say is something like what you said, whenever they start talking with [00:03:50] their own things, like, it's not as bad as your situation or whatever, right? And, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, maybe, right, like I get that, but also I think it's . . . I think it's really real, [00:04:05] how difficult struggle is for people, right? And you know, I mean there is tragedy and loss and people dying and all, you know, all those kinds of things that you know, no joke are very difficult. Right? [00:04:21] But I think that it's really important to not diminish our own struggles too, especially in the face of that. Right? Like it's, there's no scale. There's no competition, you know? And maybe other people [00:04:36] feel differently, if they're in positions like mine, but I actually feel like just relating around stuff is so much better than when it starts to kind of slide into, you know, areas where it's like, [00:04:51] well, it's not as bad as your life, but you know, whatever. It's like, yeah, that doesn't feel so great. And now I feel like there's a sort of other element to it, that isn't, doesn't need to be there, you know? BARBARA: Like a competition [00:05:06] or something. ANDREW: Yeah, a competition, or a sense of apology, you know? I mean, I feel like if, if I know somebody well enough to talk about my life and their life, then we're on the same ground, right, you know? And everybody, I think [00:05:21] everybody understands that some things are more difficult than others, from a certain perspective, you know, but, but either way, I think it's . . . I think it's important to sort of just keep that relationship open, you know, and not, [00:05:37] I don't know, create that distance that sometimes comes with that for me. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting point. Like, how did we, as a people start doing that, because it really is a habit and I feel like it's a little bit like social [00:05:52] behavior niceties, because when I'm not talking publicly, like on a podcast, I would talk about what I went through in terms of now that I'm through it and I can see the other [00:06:07] side when I look back on it, it was so hard I don't even know how I got up every day. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, so to say to you, "Oh, it wasn't so bad." When, if I talk to you privately, I would be like, "Oh my God, I don't know how I did that," you know . . . so, you were right. We [00:06:22] are on equal terms here. It's been hard. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, and life is difficult, right? You know, I mean not all the time. Luckily there's great things, you know? I mean, one of the things that was interesting was being at the tail end of the summer, [00:06:37] and I was checking in with the kids, just before they went back to school this year, and I'm like, “How was your summer?” Right? And they were, they both gave it like rave reviews. And they were like, “Well, how was your summer, Dad?" And I was like, I'm like, you know, [00:06:52] “I don't give it an 8 a 10, and like those two missing points are cause like, relaunching the store during the summer was a ton of work and very stressful, you know? And like, just dealing with all the stuff that came with that was very stressful.” [00:07:07] And I was like, “Man, I'm doing pretty good at having a good time despite all this, you know, horrible stuff that's gone on and all the stress that comes with it,” right? You know?  But that also doesn't mean that there weren't days where I was like, “Oh my God, I have no idea, is that just [00:07:22] it, is this, you know, am I done having a store, is this over? Is that over?” You know, it's . . . Yeah, it's complicated when we lose that direction, right? I think it's . . . I think it's been challenging. And I think it's been a long time that you've been [00:07:38] sort of wrestling with this sense of direction, you know. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I'm thinking about . . . We talked somewhere in one of the past episodes about, probably before you moved out there, right? When I did that impossible reading for you, and you were like, “Oh, yeah, I'm [00:07:53] going to do all these things now,” you know? It's been, it's been a quite a while in some ways, I think, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I have, especially in terms of my tarot . . . well, in a lot of areas in my life, but in terms of my tarot career, [00:08:08] I have felt really lost. So, so lost and I . . . and there are a lot of elements to that. One, I should have wrote notes. [00:08:23] One thing that changed is I wasn't working with tarot for myself. Well, I wasn't reading for other people either. I quit doing that a while ago for, mostly because I didn't feel like I had enough [00:08:38] to bring, to give, I wasn't, my cup wasn't full. I couldn't fill anyone else's cup and I wasn't working with the cards for myself. So, starting in January, I started pulling a card a day, because that's like, what you tell beginners [00:08:53] to start and I would do it and I'd mark it in my daily journal and, but, and never did anything with them and so finally, but it was enough. I mean, I had, all I had energy to do was that. [00:09:08] And that was a start. I was touching my cards again and that mattered. Then when things started, mmm, taking an upturn, I added something like, "Okay, I want this daily draw to do [00:09:23] something more than just get marked down in my book and mean nothing, but use ink," and so I decided to start pulling two cards a day. And making them mean something. So the first card was [00:09:38] some energy that I was going to find myself into that day, you know, whether it was something that happened or my added something, just, just the energy of the day, something, and then with an eye to improving myself, [00:09:53] or becoming the person I want to be, more than I am. I pulled another card: "How can I interact with this energy?" To do that. And that has been super helpful. [00:10:08] That's made a big difference and made things more active for me in terms of like, doing something with the cards. So, you know, that's just a little thing but it's made a big, big difference. [ping from phone] I am so sorry about [00:10:24] . . . ANDREW: Well, that's okay. BARBARA: And I also had been thinking a lot about, like, I had been questioning the whole doing readings thing. Right? What do we do readings [00:10:39] for? What's the purpose? Oh, these mundane readings about our everyday problems. How boring is that? Or is that even the right thing to do? I mean, just very angsty, kind of pointless, spinning my wheels questioning, [00:10:54] and then, you know, when I was thinking about, we were going to talk, and I'd thought I'd like to talk about that, and I had a kind of a revelation. I'm not sure if it's going to stick, but it's a thought, that because I [00:11:09] want to do readings about different things, or in different ways, or with a different focus. I had to denigrate those readings, for some reason, you know, I think maybe it's human nature sometimes to make ourself feel better and more confident, we have to put [00:11:24] down something else for whatever reason. And so, even just that thought made me feel a lot better about things like, "Oh, well, just because I don't want to do that and just because I want to do this, [00:11:40] that doesn't mean the other is bad. I don't have . . ." You know? I mean, does that make any sense? ANDREW: I do. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, maybe a year, two years ago, [00:11:55] I was sitting during my, you know, not daily draw, but regular draws, and I was like, writing in my journal, and I found myself writing something like, "Well, when I'm free, blah blah blah [00:12:10] blah blah," right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And, and I, for whatever reason, on that day, as opposed to the various other days when I'd written something similar, I stopped and I looked at it. And I was like, [00:12:25] “Well, when is that going to be? And what does that look like?” Right? And I'm like, you know, at the time I was in an open relationship without a huge amount of limits on it. I mean some, but not, you know, I'm like, it's pretty darn free, I'm like, [00:12:40] you own your own store and you work for yourself. Like, what, what is it that other people are defining for you or that are limiting for you, right? You know? And the answer became pretty clear that it was very [00:12:55] little, right? Not nothing. But very little, right? I still have to pay taxes, I still have to, you know, whatever, there are certain things, but . . . And, I spent a lot of time sort of chewing on that for a while and realizing how [00:13:10] how often, movement, change, you know, these ideas were sort of created on continuing to define myself in relationship to other things [00:13:25] that actually had no sway or real say over my life, right? You know, I mean if I, if I decided, you know, I mean, I'm a, I'm a very fortune-teller-oriented card reader, but if I decided that I had enough of [00:13:40] that, and all I wanted to do was psychological readings, I could just change my website and filter people based on that and inform them, when they tried to book that, you know, this was the process going forward and that would be it. Like there's, there wasn't a lot of [00:13:55] things that prevented me from the various things that I was sort of waiting to become free enough to do. And so, since then I've spent a lot of time keeping my, keeping my definition and directions [00:14:10] in check, right? Like really looking at them, and saying, “Okay, am I, am I defining this relationally? Am I in relationship with some idea that I'm not actually interested in or don't want to live by," and so on, you know, and it's, [00:14:25] it's not always easy, but I think it's really helpful. Right? So look at those pieces and say, you know, your practice has no bearing on day-to-day type questions, right? Your practice doesn't need to have any relationship to the way I read or other people read [00:14:40] or the, you know, the whims of the tarot community and, you know, this year, next year, or 10 years from now, you know. BARBARA: Yep. Yeah, knowing [00:14:55] what you want, cleanly, and being realistic about it, and not just finding excuses, that takes a lot of self-reflection and honesty, [00:15:10] but will really make a big difference.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: In how you feel about your life in this moment. ANDREW: So, how do you, how do you generate that self-reflection? [00:15:25] You're talking about tarot, as one part, your tarot practice this year. How else do you talk--how else do you figure out? Because andone of the things that I think is--yeah, it's a bit of a theme, I think, with some episodes, it comes [00:15:40] up in various places, but this idea of like, how do you know when you're done? Right? How do you know when enough's enough? How do you notice that change, mark that change? You know? And so on, right? BARBARA: Yeah. [00:15:55] And, hmmm . . . Like, if we could come up with a format, a step-by-step format, on how to get yourself to that spot, we could probably be millionaires. Because everyone wants to know that, I [00:16:10] think. Because, at least for me, I have not come up with a method that, like, walks me to the spot where I can step over the line out of, you know, the mists of confusion into clarity. [00:16:26] I don't have that. For me, it has been, it has felt like waking up. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: Like, like I've been either asleep or underwater [00:16:41] or walking through Jello or something. And I don't realize it at the time for that. I mean, I know I don't feel right, I know I feel confused and unhappy, no energy, but [00:16:56] I don't really fully understand that state of being asleep or underwater until I start coming out of it. And then I see it. And then I start thinking, [00:17:12] I don't have to be that way anymore.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And so, when I can, it's like this pivotal point, this space where, like, a liminal space between what has been going on and what could be and [00:17:27] I have this opportunity to keep behaving the way I had been or changing the behavior. But before that, I don't know that I could have changed the behavior. I don't know that I was in a place where I could have [00:17:42] done that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, for me, it's this point where . . . Or at least how it feels for me right now, is, I can't wait to get started on the next phase and [00:17:57] I haven't had that excitement, energy, or enthusiasm in two years. So how . . . But how do I know? It's, it's, it's vague. I don't have . . . well, maybe as we keep talking, I'll think of more concrete things. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: But, to start the conversation, [00:18:13] it, that's what it feels like for me. What's that feel like for you? ANDREW: I mean, lately, so like in the last year, I've been noticing [00:18:29] where I'm not putting energy, that I officially think that I'm putting energy right? Where do I feel a difference between, you [00:18:44] know, something that I'm excited about, you know? It doesn't, it doesn't make it difficult for me. It's not difficult for me to show up and make art in my studio. You know, making art is great. I mean, [00:18:59] it requires, it requires having some time, you know, and it requires, you know, ideally not having sick kids at home or whatever, like certain things, but it's pretty easy to make that commitment. [00:19:15] You know, I've been sort of in and out of relationship in terms of polyamory this year a bit, and one of the things that I noticed around some of that was, where I was [00:19:30] willing to put in a certain kind of effort or show up in a certain way in one situation, but not in another. You know, and to me, that starts to be like, okay, so if I'm, if I'm willing to make the extra time or [00:19:46] hang out with them if they're sick or, you know, whatever, but with somebody else, I'm not feeling that as much, then those kinds of decisions start to be little flags for me. It's like, not necessarily that it's the end, but it's, something needs to change there, right? Or something has changed [00:20:01] there, and I need to sort of look at that. Right? And I think that, I don't know that we ever notice the moment, right? Like I don't know if there's a, you know, barring like, really, you know: And I said something and then they smack me in the face and I said [00:20:16] "We're done," like, you know, unless it's, like, ridiculous and dramatic, which is, you know, never really my life. I don't think that we ever notice explicitly those moments. I think that we notice, we can notice [00:20:31] when we're wobbling along that line, and then we can sort of reflect and see what's coming. Or what makes sense from that point, you know? BARBARA: Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes, you're right. It's, it is hard [00:20:46] in these things to pick a point, as you said, and for most of it's probably more like a process, you know, that it takes some time and, but, sometimes even within that process you can find like little mini points, you know, [00:21:01] like, I remember, I remember admitting to myself . . . Because we'd already started talking about how California wasn't right for us. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And, so, the next question was, where do we go next? ANDREW: [00:21:16] Mm-hmm. Is the answer Tijuana? BARBARA: The answer is not Tijuana. ANDREW: Okay. BARBARA: I found myself not being super excited about thinking about where to go next.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I knew I didn't want to be here. Didn't know where I want [00:21:31] to go So, I kind of made myself think about that, and in that moment, I had this realization that hit me very hard: I want to go home. [00:21:47] And that was hard to admit, and hard to feel, and hard to know, because I knew it wasn't going to fly for us, for us, my marriage, my, our family, our little, just the two of us were a family. [00:22:04] Because we didn't want the winters. We . . . The winters in Minnesota are just too, too, too much and we're not ready for that. But just knowing that, one of the things I learned during this adventure is my family [00:22:19] and my Minnesota friends are very important to me, like more important to me than I knew before I left. ANDREW: Hmm. BARBARA: And so that little, and that, so that was a mini, like, you know, moment. [00:22:35] And then, like, when I actually told Dylan that, that was another moment, because it was scary to say that, you know, for me, because it was like, I can't believe I'm gonna say this. Because one fear was, what if she says, “Okay, let's go [00:22:50] home,” and then I'm stuck in Minnesota winter again! But anyways, so, yeah, these little mini moments of, you know, revelation. Oh, and another thing that I have noticed. I don't know if you've had this too. But now that I feel like [00:23:05] I'm being more honest with myself, that we're on, we have some more clear direction on what the future is going to look like, synchronicities are happening.  Like, I can barely like, take a breath without something, like [00:23:20] helping me feel like I'm on the right path. You know, and I've heard people talk about that, like well, if you're looking for it, of course, you're going to find it. You know, like cynics might say that. And other people might say, [00:23:35] “Well, yeah, that's a sign that you're on the right path.” I don't know if I'd quite go that far, because I'm not sure what I believe about the right path thing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Fate and destiny, that's going to be a focus of study this coming year. I'm very excited about it. ANDREW: [00:23:50] Well, you know, it's funny. I have those as listed, at the top of my list of things I want to follow up on in this conversation: agency, force, death, destiny, and free will. So we can, [00:24:05] we can set some explorations on it in this conversation and then, you know, a year from now we can report back as to where it's gotten. So yeah. BARBARA: Absolutely. Totally. Yes, right. So synchronicities, you know, [00:24:20] they always, I find them comforting, and encouraging, so whether they're actually real or not, it doesn't matter to me right now. I'm taking my comfort where I can get it. It's helping. ANDREW: So, and I think that, [00:24:35] first of all, I think, you know, as the song says, you know, whatever gets you through the night. Like, I think that finding comfort where we can is always, you know, as long as it's not too self-destructive. [00:24:51] I think it's always a great move, right? I think that, you know, this year of sort of moving through the fire and doing that has definitely been a year of more indulging- and comfort-orientated behavior [00:25:07] than is usual for me. And I'm just like, you know what? Life is fricking hard right now, so I'm not going to worry about that too much. And I'm just going to, you know, lean into that wherever and whenever I need to, you know, so there's been [00:25:22] more naps, more ice cream, and more TV this year than would normally be a thing for me, because sometimes that, you know, for me anyway, that's part of getting through these times, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I think that, you know, [00:25:38] so, synchronicities are a thing that I am very interested in, especially because it's often touted as the explanation of how tarot works, also, right. You shuffle the cards and the universe [00:25:54] through synchronicity arranges them in a way that is meaningful. And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of fine and fun as an answer unless you try and like [00:26:09] say, “What does synchronicity mean? How exactly does that function? And you know, is there anything behind that?” And then all of a sudden you just like slide into utter chaos of inexplicable mystery, right? And I think that that's fine. I have, for me, I'm [00:26:24] like, you know, mystery is the answer, right? I'm like, tarot runs on mystery. That's all we need to know about it. BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Exactly, exactly, right? But, so, I think [00:26:39] that synchronicity is, you know, lots of people are really into numerology, and, you know, they're like . . . I've, you know, people come for readings, like, "I've been seeing lots of triple eight lately, or triple this, or triple . . ." [00:26:54] And I'm always like, "Well, that's cool. What does it mean?" And you know, it . . . And then they'll often say a thing followed by the question, which is usually, “So when is that going to manifest?” Right? [00:27:09] And so, you know, and I don't mean this to make fun of people, like I'm not at all, right? Like absolutely, there are those moments where like, “Oh, there's a sign. Okay, where's the, where's the product?” Right? “Where's, where's the actual outcome of that?” So, [00:27:24] sort of more and more over time, I've been, I've been looking at what it is that I believe, how I approach things, and thinking about . . . [00:27:39] You know, people always ask me, like, well, so “What's the, what's the astrology in the Orisha tradition?” Right? “What's the astrology in your Orisha practice?” And I'm like, there is none, it doesn't exist. Right? It's not a part of it at all. There's no, no consideration [00:27:54] given to it in any real sense. There, there is, notions around times of day, a bit, depending on what we're talking about, and if you practice in a syncretized kind [00:28:09] of way with the saints, then maybe certain Orishas have their day, right? You know,  where many people celebrate them extra, but there is no astrology. And, and I've been noticing the sort [00:28:24] of growing tension for me between, like, astrology, which I stopped reading this year, and stepped away from and decided that I was going to actively not engage any more, and [00:28:39] the way in which I was feeling stressed and tense around that stuff some, and the fact that it's not actually a part of my religious practice at all. Right? And I'm kind of the same with, like, some of the [00:28:54] synchronicity stuff, you know? There have been times in my life where I was very intense on that kind of stuff and, you know, thought about it and wrote about it, had a bunch of experiences with it. And now there's [00:29:09] basically only one symbol from the universe that I'm interested in. Well, there's a couple. One, but the synchronous thing, or the thing that I think fits this way, is if I find a playing card on the street, [00:29:24] then for me, that's a message, and I will interpret the card based on my knowledge of reading them and we'll go from there. Right? The other thing that is synchronous, you know, from a certain perspective, but I see it as more directly as a message [00:29:39] from spirit, which kind of has a different definition in my mind. So, like, three months ago, maybe a little less, I broke up [00:29:54] with someone that I'd been with for a long time. We decided to change the nature of our relationship. And it was very kind and very honest. And you know, and the relationship has changed into [00:30:10] a really good friendship, which is lovely. But about two days after I . . .  that happened, I found a robin's nest on the ground with three dead eggs in it like broken eggs, right? And I was [00:30:25] like, everyone's like, “Oh, that's just so . . .” I'm like “No, this is just sad and unpleasant,” right? You know? And I was just like, yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely acknowledging like the depth of the disruption that's happened here. And, [00:30:40] and so, you know, I took that, I picked up the nest, and I saved it, and you know, it's around still. And, and then, maybe three weeks ago, two weeks ago, [00:30:55] I was walking through this laneway that I identify with the spirit that I work with a lot. And there was a pigeon on, like sort of flopping around a bit, with this, what looked like a branch [00:31:10] wrapped around its neck, and I'm like, "Oh, how am I going to free this poor bird? Is it going to let me get close enough to liberate it?" And as I got a little closer, the bird, I realized, was actually holding onto the branch. It was not stuck by it. [00:31:25] And it flew up and it flew directly up over my head, circled maybe like five feet above my head, three times, and literally dropped the branch into my hands. BARBARA: No way! ANDREW: And I was like, "Perfect, now [00:31:40] there's a new nest. Now I'm going to build something new. Now I've moved on, internally, I've moved on," right? BARBARA: Ohhhh . . . ANDREW: So to me, these are events that I take as as close to synchronous as people usually mean by that, right? [00:31:55] You know, direct message from somewhere else, right? And to me, they are clear, and concrete, and so on, in a way that, you know, not to diminish anybody else's experience, but [00:32:10] that those other kinds of symbols, I'm not sure what they mean, right? At least in my life, you know? And so, yeah, but also, you know there have been plenty of times in my life, where I'm like, [00:32:25] "Oh, yeah, I saw that, I saw that number again. I'm on the right path. I'm on the right path," you know? And I think that that's fair too, I think I just have a different relationship to it now, and I have a different set of expectations maybe. So. BARBARA: [00:32:40] Yeah. Okay, great. It all makes sense. And I love the story about the pigeon. Oh my God, I'm still stuck on that. Anyways, yeah. So, synchronicity, like levels of synchronicity, or is it [00:32:55] synchronicity, or is it a message from the divine, are they two different things? Those are really great questions. I think I agree with you. I think there is a difference between them. And, like synchronicity, I mean, I think the actual definition of it is like two [00:33:11] disconnected things that seem to have a connection. And I think that we humans are the ones who give that connection or give that meaning, so, so maybe what, why it's comforting to me is because if I [00:33:26] see something that brings to mind something else that's connected with what I'm doing at the time, or going through or thinking about, it just helps remind me that that's where my attention is.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, you know, maybe it's just this, a [00:33:41] way of like stoking the fire, like, yes, this is what my intention is. This is what I want to think about. You know, but on a kind of more subtle level or something. And then, you know, messages from the divine, then, I think, are kind of different. [00:33:57] You mentioned finding the cards, playing cards, specifically playing cards on the street is pretty funny. It reminds me of . . . Dylan has something that she has always called parking lot divination, and she started it when she was [00:34:12] a book cover designer at Llewellyn. Now, as you could imagine, the trash cans, the big garbage bins outside of Llewellyn, sometimes would have cards in them, for, you know, if a package had been damaged or whatever. [00:34:27] And so, sometimes, I guess, they would blow around and she would always walk around the building, you know, for exercise every day. And so sometimes she would come across these random cards on the, you know, and she would always pick them up and they would mean, she would read them as [00:34:42] a divination, and she still does that to this day, and she finds a surprising number of playing cards just out and about in the streets. It's very strange. So, so yeah.  ANDREW: They're definitely around. BARBARA: Yeah.  ANDREW: The other thing [00:34:57] that's funny is I almost never find a whole deck. A couple times I have. Yeah, and often I'll find them clustered for periods of time, you know, like I will find [00:35:12] different, different cards in different places for a couple months, and then I'll find nothing for six months. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And then I'll start finding them again, which is also, to me, interesting. Yeah. BARBARA: Huh. I have another kind of [00:35:27] a symbol story, and you know, does it mean something? Or does it mean nothing? Or did I give it meaning or whatever? That . . . it's a story that I wanted to tell you, you know, any, at some point today, anyways . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Cause it's very, it was very significant [00:35:42] to me. So, So, okay. How to tell the story? Okay. So, Dylan is not going to be here at Christmas. She's actually flying back to Minnesota for Christmas. I'm going to be [00:35:57] here alone, which is great because I have a whole, you know, personal retreat planned and ritual, and all kinds of crazy great stuff, but because of that, we did our little personal celebration on Sunday. And, [00:36:12] but we had agreed on no presents because of reasons. And, but she said, "But, I do have one present that I actually started the process for it a few months ago. So, there'll be [00:36:27] the one present." I'm like, “Okay, I can, I can let you give me a present, no problem.” ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And so, well, so the back story that you need to know to understand the present [00:36:42] is: When we got married, she gave me a necklace, and it suited me perfectly, it was meaningful and beautiful and we both loved it. And it was just, it was [00:36:57] like a symbol, one of the many symbols of us.  ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And in May, we were, we were out at the coast. I was taking a watercolor class, and we'd gone together, and I brought the necklace but I didn't, [00:37:12] I don't sleep in it. So I, you know, just take it off, and I, you know, put it somewhere, then . . . Long story short, it got left in the hotel, and when we called the hotel, they're like, “No, it's not in the room.” You know? So, [00:37:27] I mourned that necklace. I cried, it felt, it felt symbolic. It felt like “Oh my God, our marriage is,” you know? It's, it just made me so sad because [00:37:42] things had been hard, we're working through some things, and I just took it as this horrible, horrible omen, and it just broke my heart. And the company, [00:37:57] we couldn't find, it looks like the company didn't make the necklace anymore, so I couldn't even get a replacement, and it was just horrible, horrible. Well, so Christmas comes, present time. She gives me a . . . Okay. So she brings me a card and a little, little present and I opened the card and I start [00:38:12] reading it and I start bawling because she's written some stuff that is breaking my heart in a good way. And she's like, “Well, since you're crying, hold on, we'll just keep going.” And she goes in the other room and brings out a different package [00:38:27] and I start opening it. And it's wrapped in this kind of a gift baggy thing that we've had for years and we only use it for a very special gift. And . . .  ANDREW: That's really sweet. BARBARA: It [00:38:42] is, it is, we haven't used it in a number of years because you know, it hasn't been like that. And so, she, I start opening it. And then inside it is a bag from Arthur's Jewelers, Arthur's Jewelers [00:38:57] is the Jewelers in St. Paul where we got like our wedding rings from, and if we ever get like actual real jewelry, which we don't have a lot of, but we get it from them, and as I saw the bag and I'm like, she got me jewelry, what? And, and, then all of a sudden [00:39:12] I knew what was in that bag and I have never ripped the package open so fast in my life, and it was the necklace. And I saw it, and I have, I cried like my [00:39:27] soul was, I don't know what was going on. But I've only cried like that like maybe three times in my life, and it felt like a symbol, you know, like a sign like, okay, like, you lost [00:39:42] it. You guys were in the like, the three days of death or the three days after death, like, you know, in the bowels of hell fighting the demon, and now you're done, and now you, you know, you have the same, it's a new necklace, but it's the same necklace. It, [00:39:57] so, it's kind of like our marriage. It's the same marriage, but it's a new marriage and it was hard won. And until I lost it, I didn't realize how much it meant to me, and, you know, so, [00:40:12] I felt like the necklace, was always symbolic, the loss of it was symbolic, the reacquiring of it was symbolic. So that's another thing entirely, you know, was that divine? Was that something we, [00:40:27] that . . . I don't know. How did that happen? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that the answer is probably always really complex, right? You know, I mean, people, [00:40:43] you know, people talk about like, the fire, right? Me having the fire. They're like, “Well, you know, maybe it happened for a reason so you could whatever.” And I'm always like, "I don't, I don't buy that answer at all.” Right? I mean, you know, that [00:40:58] said, right? I think that, like many things, I hold sort of contradictory ideas about it, right? And in myself, they seem fine to be contradictory, right?  I know that, [00:41:13] you know, in some ways, that the fire must have been a part of my destiny, in some sense, because of the advice of the Orishas in the time around it, right? You know, we have this [00:41:29] kind of source of negativity, which is Otonowa, which means that which we brought with you from heaven, right? And sometimes it means, sometimes it means that literally. Maybe sometimes [00:41:44] it stands for things that just can't be changed and we have to work through in one way or another, but, you know, this was part of my advice from the Orishas around that time. So, I'm like, well, fair enough, something was going on there, in that regard. [00:41:59] But also like, the idea that, you know, I talked about this, I think in the last episode too with Chiron Armand, you know, the idea that we are always progressing towards other things, or better things, and [00:42:14] so on. I don't necessarily believe that, either, right? I think that, you know, we can look at people's lives and see that that doesn't happen, sometimes, right? Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. And the reasons for that are, [00:42:29] you know, complex and, you know, and always a bit obscure as well. Right? Why does, why does one experience sort of break a person in a way that they don't recover from? And why does it, you know, [00:42:44] you know, just deeply bruise or wound or maybe not even apparently sort of injure another person, right? You know, there's such a diversity amongst us all and why that is the case, right? But for me, I look at [00:42:59] these situations and I think that it becomes a question of what do we, what do, you know, there's, if we want to call it fate or whatever, those, those experiences that are beyond our apparent control, right? [00:43:14] Or that are the unexpected byproduct of decisions that we have made, maybe in the case of a relationship, that might sort of give the appearance of fate, and might coincide with synchronicities, right? That moment when you lost the necklace and it cued you to, [00:43:29] you know, all of the bigger changes that were going on, right? And then there's the question of what do we do with it? Right? You know? And I think that that is also, you know, such a big distinction, [00:43:44] right? You know? And like, me ending up in the situation that I'm in now, which is in many ways more ideal than the situation I was in with the store. You know? Or where the store was at, at the time of the fire. You know, on the one hand, [00:43:59] yeah, that's, it's great that it's, that it's sort of working out really well, but also there's a, there's a lot of it that's really, was already in my two year plan. You [00:44:14] know? Like I was already thinking about these ideas and working on them. And so, some of this transformation, you know, I'm just going to take credit for, by saying, you know, like look, I had these ideas that because of the [00:44:31] concreteness of having the store were going to take me a long time to make shift, that in some ways the fire basically just liquidated my assets into cash and allowed me to transform it, you know, [00:44:46] and applying it towards those plans. You know? There's that, that sort of balance of agency, free will, and the intersection of fate, right? Because I think that what we, what we do when things happen is, [00:45:02] you know, is important, and makes a big difference in that, you know? And I think that the more we cultivate a capacity to, you know, to make good decisions during those times, [00:45:17] you know, the better that can go and so on, right? So, anyway, I don't know, I don't know if that makes any sense at all. But . . . BARBARA: Oh, yeah. Well, as you say, these things get confusing to talk about, so, yeah, I think yeah, insofar [00:45:32] as it can make sense, it totally makes sense. And, kind of, almost kind of connected with that is, you know, this, the idea [00:45:47] of like judging something as good or bad. Okay. It's, and it's kind of connected with the idea, “Oh, it happened for a reason.” Well, I mean first of all, almost everything does happen for a reason because cause and effect exists. And you know, so there was a reason, [00:46:02] but I know people are talking about a grander reason then electrical faultiness or whatever. So, things happen for a reason, maybe, you know, they . . . Things happen, [00:46:17] is what what it is, and trying to judge whether they're good or bad. I mean, we want to do that because that's what we do because we're binary beings, I guess, you know like, “Oh, that's good. That's bad.” I mean, people always say [00:46:32] what they think, but you can't always tell if something's actually good or bad in the long run until time has passed, because there have been things that I went through that I wouldn't want to go through again, [00:46:47] but I'm glad they happened, because then XYZ happened, not saying it happened for a reason, you know, like because it didn't magically do anything. It also ties kind of into what you're saying, your own agency and own preparedness, [00:47:02] your own, you know, strength of will, whatever you want to say, you know, you can bring that to it and turn things around.  But it's also one of the things that bothered me, puzzled me about these, you know, more everyday readings, you know, like, people are like, “Well, [00:47:17] you know, I'm thinking of taking this job. Should I take this job?” And you know, I mean, I don't know about you, but like if I'm looking into the future, I'm not real comfortable looking more than six months out. I just don't. [00:47:32] And you know, so if I'm, you know, do a reading and it's like, well, yeah, the job says this, this, and this, and maybe some things they consider not good and then they don't take it. But if they took it, then it would [00:47:47] have led to XYZ. So, you know, just, we don't always know. We think we know what we want in the short term. We think we know what our goals are. Oh, I want to manifest this, I want to do this, if the cards say it's all going to be positive. [00:48:02] I think we lose something in that, because not everything we do has to be completely positive or successful to be worthwhile or to be part of a larger journey that might be more worthwhile. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: Does that make sense? ANDREW: It does. [00:48:17] I mean, I think that, I think that the question of like, you know, one of the questions that I've been thinking about for a while, specifically around, you know, my work life, is like, what's enough? Right? [00:48:32] At what point, at what point am I successful enough? I mean, to put it in really basic terms, at what point am I making enough money? And what, what is it that I would like from going beyond that point? Right? You know? And I think [00:48:47] that, you know, working for yourself is not like kind of getting into a job description position that you like and just sort of like, "perfect, if I just stay in this job till I retire, that's great," because working for yourself doesn't really work that way, and I'm not sure the economy works that way [00:49:02] that much anymore anyway. But you know, but I think that we have these sort of notions of progress, of enlightenment, of, you know, all those kinds of ideas that are, you know, cultural [00:49:17] to capitalism and you know, like cultural to North America and so on, maybe, that, that I think are questionable how helpful they are, right? You know, like, [00:49:32] I don't, I don't know that . . . Like mostly what I'm interested in is making art, making more art, making more art, and doing the things that supports [00:49:47] that, right? And you know, like, I love running the store. I love doing readings for people. But I think that like, the idea of it sort of going anywhere. I'm like, well, I [00:50:02] don't know where, I don't know where it goes, and what the definition of where it goes, and what the grand plan is. I just want to, you know, do my practice, which is, you know, making art and reading cards for people, and just continue to do that. And I think that, you know, [00:50:17] that you're right, that it's hard to say, on a big arc of time, what might be good or what might be difficult. You know, like if we get, if we take a job, maybe it's crummy for six months and then it's great [00:50:32] after that, and so on. But I also feel like the idea of persevering through stuff towards an outcome. I'm really [00:50:47] less and less interested in that these days, you know? If something, if something, if the exchange isn't good in the short term, then I don't, you know, I don't, I'm not really that interested in sort of engaging in that [00:51:02] to get to a theoretically better long-term, you know? And, and I think that, I think a lot of people, especially around relationships, right, sort of work through, try to work through stuff, [00:51:17] you know, to get to . . . Especially newer relationships, right? Like maybe if you've been with somebody for a while as you have been, that, you know, there's a, there's a different math around, like, well, I was involved for this long. [00:51:32] And so now I'm willing to commit a longer stretch of time to working on things.  BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: But, but, I think that for me, I'm like, I'm not that interested in working on very much these days in those kinds of ways, you know, and if something isn't [00:51:47] flowing, I don't have the, I haven't seen the value of spending the resilience and capacity on working hard at stuff that is difficult [00:52:03] towards accomplishing longer term goals without making a change, right? You know, I think about it like Crowley talks about the Strength card or the Lust card in his tarot deck, right? And, and I think [00:52:18] that he draws a distinction in his writing on it, where he says that, you know, lust is not the absence of effort, right? It's not the absence of exertion. It is the absence of noticing the exertion, right? [00:52:33] Or something along those lines, right? And that idea that, you know, if we don't mind the work that we're not going to notice it, right?  BARBARA: Right.  ANDREW: And if we do mind the work, well, then, maybe we need to, maybe that's one of those cues to make a change, right? [00:52:49]  BARBARA: Yeah, that's gorgeous. And if you follow it, like if that's kind of a guideline that you're following for your life right now, as you were saying, then you probably [00:53:04] wouldn't be doing readings on things so much, because if you're like, I'm, I'm going with how things feel now, you are attune enough to yourself to know what you're . . . You know, [00:53:19] so you probably would need less readings because you're paying attention to your energy and how you're feeling and what you're doing and the effort and the payoff. Is that true or not true? ANDREW: That's true. [00:53:35] Trueish. I mean, I think that there are always practical considerations that are difficult, right? You know? [00:53:50] Dealing, dealing with insurance companies after having had a fire. It's like, man, nobody wants to insure you, right? It's like, it's difficult. And so, there are . . . For me, there are always practical questions, [00:54:05] and, you know, questions along the lines of, is there anything that I can do to make this better, to make it happen, especially because I have a very strong practical magical practice, right? You know, so there are those kinds of questions. [00:54:20] But really the question that I ask more often than not, these days, is either something along the lines of like well, should I run my Tarot de Marseilles class in January, or should I run my other course, [00:54:35] right? Like very sort of strategic business kind of things? Or a question, the question I go back to most of the time, is how do I show up fully today? How do [00:54:50] I show up fully in this situation? Right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And you know, and for me, that's a question that I've kind of come to answer by a sort of multi-step open-ended [00:55:07] kind of practice. Right? Like I don't, I no longer just kind of, if I'm going to read cards for myself in that way, I don't like just draw a card or two cards for the answer. I'll usually draw start with drawing a playing card, [00:55:22] checking in with my guides and ancestors, drawing three trumps from the, from a Marseilles deck, reading those in light of what's already been set in motion in the early part of the reading, and then [00:55:38] drawing a card from my Land of the Sacred Self Oracle that I self-published. And doing some writing on that, and then usually photographing that, and then drawing, doing, drawing back into it [00:55:53] and embellishing it further, and then at some point, that feels finished. So, like that's the, the process that I do when I do that stuff. And you know, it's all, if you, if people were to look at it, which I'm not [00:56:08] going to share it anywhere. But anyway, if people were to look at it, you'd be like, wow. I don't know what sense this makes a lot of time because a lot of it is very nonlinear and very, you know, like a lot of channeled reading, writing, you know, like, [00:56:23] and so on. But at the end of the process, I'm like, “Oh, now, now I'm aligned for the day, and now I know how I stay aligned for the day. You know for this project or whatever.” Right? So . . . yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, well and yeah, [00:56:38] that sounds like a good process, and I think like, some, I've heard people, you know, say, “Oh, I can't read for myself.” And I think sometimes part of that is they don't read for themselves the way they read [00:56:53] for somebody else. Like they give themself short shrift. You know, they won't go through the whole process, just throw the cards, look at them, go, and then pick them up and put them away. You know, it's different. I think if you treat [00:57:08] yourself as if you were, how you would treat a client . . . ANDREW: For sure and I think if you're going to read for yourself around practical considerations, you just need to have a lot of discipline, right? You know? For me when I read for myself [00:57:23] around practical considerations, it's actually usually really short because I'm like, like, you know, it's whatever. The Tower card says, this is a horrible idea. Don't go down this road. It's like, it's like, it's the end of the conversation. Just stop [00:57:38] there, you know, because the more I talk about it, the more I might try and talk myself into it or think that I have agency where, where the Tower says it doesn't, you know? And so on and so on, right? So but for me, yeah, it's like, you know, there's a short list of [00:57:53] sort of core meaning that I would attribute to every card that if I want to read for myself, I'm going to hold hard to that no matter whether I like it or not, whether it even makes sense or not to me, and be like, “All right, the card says that [00:58:08] someone's going to really betray you here, 10 of Swords. It's like, well, all right, let's not go there then.” Well, so I'm going to go instead, “What else can I do?” You know? Yeah. BARBARA: I think that's important too when you especially, well, like your first practice was more of [00:58:23] an internal deeper kind of a reading. And now we're talking about practical readings, and I think one of the reasons we want to do a practical reading is because we want to bypass our head, because we keep thinking [00:58:38] about it, and we keep justifying, and we know we're justifying, or making excuses and we know we're making excuses. So, you do this reading and keep it short and hold yourself to it. It helps bypass all of that, but you're right, if you start thinking about it, like, well, the Tower [00:58:53] can be, you know, how we can sometimes spin things. ANDREW: Carl Jung thinks of buildings as being a symbol of our ego and our persona in the world, maybe I just need to change the way I approach this, so that I can have a different experience of this and then I can learn [00:59:08] and grow and blah blah blah. It's like, no. Still gonna get hit by the lightning. Definitely don't like that. Thank you, but I'll pass. Right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: For sure.  BARBARA: Or someone wants to know, "Oh, I started dating someone, how is it going to go?" Five of Wands. "Oh, it's going to be so exciting [00:59:23] and fun!" And you know, it's like, one of the exercises I would give beginner students is, for reading for themselves, is okay, before you do a reading, the question, you know your question, and you know what answer [00:59:38] you want.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Go through the deck and just like, if you don't already have the meanings, like you have, for reading for yourself. This is new people, go through the deck and you know pull out the cards that you think would make that answer.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And then [00:59:53] shuffle your cards--and make note of them--shuffle your cards again, and then do your reading, and then if, you know, the Two of Cups, Ten of Cups, whatever doesn't come up. It can be like, "Well, okay. This isn't one of the answer cards. [01:00:08] This is a different answer." And it's a way to kind of discipline, discipline yourself, which is what you said when we started. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. No, exactly. Well. It's like, you know, I think that that approach is, you know, really [01:00:23] helpful for a lot of things, right? And especially for, you know, I mean not everybody reads for, for everything, you know, but I do. Right? Like I don't really have limits around what I'll read for, you know, for [01:00:38] the most part. So, like, if someone's like, well, am I going to get pregnant, right? Am I going to conceive? Well, I have a short, short list of cards that answer yes to that, right? There's only like three or four of them, [01:00:53] depending on the deck I'm working with, and if those cards don't show up, then I'm going to say, "The cards don't give you a solid yes." Right? And you know, the same with the question people are like, “Am I cursed?” I'm like, “It happens, magic is real. I believe [01:01:08] it,” you know. But there's, there's only a couple of cards in the deck that are going to answer affirmatively to, to me around that, and my expectation is that the mystery will surface those cards, so that the answer feels unequivocal, [01:01:24] you know. And I think that that's also a practice that is a bit hair-raising when people are starting, but I think that, you know, as we talk about it, I realize how many different kinds of questions I have a very short list of [01:01:39] cards that I would take as a solid answer to, you know, and I think that that's a really helpful way maybe to, to avoid feeling ambiguous about the readings that you're giving, right? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: So, yeah. [01:01:56] All right. Well, maybe, is there something else you want to add? I see you looking like you're gonna . . . BARBARA: Yes, I, there's one, like, I kind of said that I was going to be studying fate and destiny in the coming year. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: The other thing I'm [01:02:11] looking forward to is, over this past year, I've heard a couple of people refer to mythic living, like I should know what that means, and I don't, and I've asked a couple of people, you know, "Well, what do you mean by [01:02:26] that?" And I haven't gotten, I was, kept getting this idea that it was like, where you just live really big and loud and you know, mythically legendary, you know? And, but . . . I read something a couple weeks ago that made me think okay, you got that wrong, obviously, [01:02:42] and what this blog said was, it's when you understand the mythic rhythms of life, things that happen, the mythic, well, [01:02:57] anyways, you know what I mean. And when you understand them and when you can learn where you are in your life in terms of a mythic story, or cycle, then you can learn how to live within that. [01:03:12] Have you ever heard anything like that? What do you think of that?  ANDREW: I mean, isn't that how people feel about the hero's journey? BARBARA: It's the whole, yes, exactly. Okay. So similar thing. ANDREW: I think, right. I mean, I've my [01:03:27] own ideas about mythic stuff, but we'll save that for later, for another time, maybe. But I think that, I think that [01:03:42] the idea of sort of myths as true guides to our, to our lives, or as, you know, true models of experience, in the same way that I think of this sort of way in [01:03:57] which people sometimes default to astrology, and sometimes default to other ways of creating definition. I think they're, I think that there is value in them, and there are [01:04:12] values in those stories, you know?  And as a person who practices a religion that is based on, we could say, has a huge swath of it that's based on stories, right? You know, nobody, nobody [01:04:27] in my tradition would tell you . . . Well, no, nobody with a solid grounding in reality would tell you that, you know, as a child of Shango, I'm gonna live the life, live the myths of Shango, [01:04:42] right? You know? And you know, and I think that this idea that, that sort of these myths define the arc of human experience, right? I think [01:04:57] it's pretty questionable. I think that there is truth in it, right? You know, like the, the myth of Percival, which is so popular amongst, you know, Western initiatory stuff, [01:05:12] right? It's like, there are pieces of that that are true, and valuable, and you see most people encounter in some way, right? Like, you know, once the, once the hero decides to go on their journey, something arises to distract them, right? You know, [01:05:27] Kundria arrives to distract Percival from pursuing whatever, right? But the idea that every myth ends with, you know, “Oh, you are the person you were searching for all along and you had it with you the whole time.” [01:05:42] I don't think that's true at all. Right? I see lots of people whose lives are, are not that way, right? And, you know, and yet, the, the, questions that arise from looking at that myth a bit, like what would, what would distract you from your deeper commitment? [01:05:57] Right? In what ways are you not already acknowledging your gifts, you know? And so on, right?  Like those, those are powerful questions, but as sort of models for, for sort of promoting everybody's [01:06:12] experience, you know, it's like the hero's journey. I'm just kind of like, I'm like, "Yeah, maybe, for some people, some of the time," but then we're back to this question of like, agency and free will and how much does our expectation that is the course that we're going to [01:06:27] continue on then shape the course that we live afterwards, right? And I think that, yeah, so. But yeah, so I think that that's a really mixed bag [01:06:42] of things, you know, for me, you know? And probably because I did not come out of tarot from that sort of Angeles Aryan, sort of archetypes of people, you know, archetypes are what's behind [01:06:57] tarot piece, but came from a sort of practical magical and sort of ceremonial background into this stuff and then into a non-Western tradition religiously. I always look at those pieces, and I'm kind of like, eh? [01:07:12] I get it. I see it. Like I can see how you see it. And I can see how it's there, but it's like, what it's defined as, seems overstated or, or incomplete in some way to me, [01:07:27] in a way that I've never been able to reconcile it, or kind of close the loop on it. So yeah. BARBARA: I guess that's why there's a lot of different approaches because . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Some work for some people and some work for others [01:07:42]. ANDREW: Exactly, right, you know, and it's, of course, it's not to say that, you know, if people find value in that, fantastic, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, please, please don't write me, I don't need to have this conversation again. I've had it so many times, you know? But no, not [01:07:57] that, not talking, talking about you, but like, but yeah, it's like I've had many people, very smart people try to convince me. Or want to have conversations around convincing me about it. Like it's not my jam. I just, I just don't, I just don't jive with it, so we could just go [01:08:12] talk about other things instead, right? BARBARA: Right, or yeah, because that's not a really interesting conversation, because trying to convince someone who has, especially someone who has a perfectly workable system, you know, and they're not like [01:08:27] asking for advice or looking for a new way to live or think. It's just evangelizing, and why do you, why . . . Just because you believe something is true, the, the other person doesn't have to think it's true. [01:08:42] That doesn't diminish its worth for you. You know, you don't, everyone doesn't have to believe the same thing. ANDREW: Exactly.  BARBARA: You know, what might be more interesting would be to say, "Well, let's talk about what I think and what you think and see if there are any parallels and maybe talk about where they [01:08:57] differ. And isn't that interesting? And why is that?" You know. ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah. I'm curious to hear what your explorations of mythicness deliver to you, bring to you, over time, though, for sure. BARBARA: I [01:09:12] know. I have a feeling that next year, next fall, our conversation is going to be super interesting. I mean not that these haven't been, but these have been personal, and hard, and important, and [01:09:28] valuable, but I think for next fall, we might, our listeners might get a treat of something different. ANDREW: Or maybe they'll just get a lovely, what are we at now, fourth helping, fifth helping of, you know, [01:09:43] whatever this is. But yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll, time will tell. BARBARA: That's right. ANDREW: Well, thanks for making time again, Barbara. I appreciate it as always. BARBARA: I do too. I love these conversations. ANDREW: Me too!  

Developing Relationships For Winning Partnerships with Barbara Jaynes Barbara Jaynesis the founder of Positively-Funded. A Business Development firm focused on making nonprofits THRIVE. Barbara came to the nonprofit sector after having spent over fifteen years in large scale commercial real estate development. Bringing with her savvy negotiation skills and durable relationship development between the private and public sectors. Positively-Funded assists nonprofits with creating authentic community allies. Engaging for profit partners in nonprofit missions to increase their revenue, decrease employee turnover and create sustainable resilient communities. Barbara focuses on winning relationships for the long-term. More about Jayne http://www.positively-funded.com  The Interview Transcript Hugh Ballou: Greetings, folks. It's Hugh Ballou in central western Virginia, where today the flowers are coming out, the sun is shining, it's absolutely a gorgeous day. These are the old mountains in the Appalachians. You got all the young, pointy mountains out there in Denver, Russell. Russell Dennis: We haven't filed them down yet. We have a lot of them, too. Hugh: You have a lot of them. We have a good guest that you actually talked to and got her on board today. It's an important topic people don't talk about globally, or even around the corner in their own communities. There is a lot more we can do. Barbara Jaynes, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Barbara Jaynes: Hello, Hugh. Hello, Russ. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Hugh: Tell our listeners a little bit about Barbara, your history, and why you're doing what you're doing now. Barbara: I'd love to, Hugh. Thank you. In 2006, my family and I moved to Superior, Colorado right outside Boulder. Before that, I lived in Cleveland and did inner city redevelopment. I worked in some of the toughest neighborhoods in the country and did urban renewal. I did some hospitals, large scale, ground up shopping centers and grocery stores. I loved what I did. It was my vocation. When I came to Denver, it wasn't as old, and people weren't as interested in my vocation and developing strong communities.  So I decided to go to the nonprofit sector and take my vocation and business skills there. I went to one of the most well-known nonprofits in Denver. I would bring them these incredible partners. They didn't know how to develop the relationships. They just wanted the check. You can't do that. Target doesn't want you to burn through a gallon of milk one time; they want you to do it 1,000 times. Nonprofits need to start thinking like businesses. I realized that. They needed to learn how to develop these relationships and know they are a value add. That's how Positively Funded was founded. Hugh: Positively Funded. That's your business and website? Barbara: It is. Positively-Funded.com. Hugh: What's that about? Barbara: I wanted nonprofits to think of a positive way to fund themselves. What I do is beneficial to both parties. It's not about give me, give me, give me. It's about going out and developing relationships that work. In the business sector you find your community allies and ask, “What is it that you need? Are you having a hard time engaging millennials? Are you having a hard time keeping employees? Do you need a better market profile? Do you need sales increased?” You work with the nonprofit to benefit yourself to help your business grow and benefit the nonprofit at the same time. Hugh: Russell, did you hear that? There is a synergy between for-profit and for-purpose businesses. What did you hear in that, Russ? Russell: It's all about collaboration. We had a great discussion on that. I have been wanting to get Barbara on the show for a while. We just started having discussions. There are people I am meeting all over the place right here in town that Barbara and I will be talking with soon. It never ceases to amaze me how when you are vibrating at a certain frequency, people start to turn up. I had a good friend who did therapy for veterans who is recently retired. Just ran into her this morning. We were having coffee. She said, “What can I do?” That is somebody Barbara needs to meet and other people around here need to meet. We can get a lot more done together. The traditional models of each thing don't seem to fit. I am starting to see people who are creating hybrid businesses, socially responsible businesses. They are taking their for-purpose enterprises in new directions and looking at mission-based revenue. It's all exciting. It starts with partnerships and being able to talk to each other. Barbara and I met for lunch one day. She is so easy to talk to. It could be that we are vibrating on the same frequency. It could be a mild form of group psychosis. Either way, the results will be the same if we collaborate. Barb's masterful at putting these partnerships together. She is from my hometown. It's not surprising. Hugh: It's the thin air there that helps inspire you, I'm sure. Russ, we preach the song of working together, of collaborating. The town where I live, Lynchburg, the University of Lynchburg, is launching a center for nonprofit leadership around the theme of collaboration. We have lots of nonprofits that distribute food to hungry people, and some who provide meals in addition to that. There is no overarching umbrella of how they can work together. If somebody is hungry on a Friday night, none of them are available for food. If someone is bound at home and can't use transportation, there is no way they can get to this food bank. We are putting together an umbrella organization for people to know that other ones exist, and where can we have a meaningful conversation? Barbara, let's start from the beginning. We have these different entities. From where I sit, I've been in history longer than you guys, today it's more important for the work of our nonprofits, whatever we call ourselves, our work is more important today because the world is so splintered and fragmented and toxic. We do the substantive work of doing good. But really, it works better if we work together. Where is the starting point? Suppose the scenario I have just outlined. There are a bunch of medical facilities that are free clinics. How do you start this conversation? How do you paint this paradigm of benefit? How do you take people who are interested and make them allies? Barbara: Hugh, the scenario that you put out is very common. One nonprofit does this, and another one does that. The nonprofits need to come together and collaborate as well. They need to look at where are the gaps that we need to fill in. We both do amazing things. No one nonprofit can be everything to the world. You might take a scenario and take those gaps and go out and find a community partner. Say, “We have this need. Here is what it is. We are not serving-” Take your example on a Friday night. While we both have food, we're not available to serve them. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have the bodies to do it ourselves. How could we work with you to help solve this problem? Ask for the mentorship from those companies. When you work with a company, it's so important that you are working from bottom to top, top to bottom, hitting everyone. So go to their development people, their operations people, their finance people in the C-suite and say that you need mentorship in these areas. We have this problem. Help us solve it. Go to their new employees. Say, we could use some volunteers. The company you work for is amazing because they are helping to support the community and feed those who are hungry. We need your support as well. Talk about employee retention and the mental health benefits from volunteering. And engaging millennials. Millennials don't just want what's in the envelope at the end of the week. They want a purpose and a reason to be there. You the nonprofit can help give them that purpose.   Hugh: Connecting those dots is essential. There is this fear factor where we have our group of volunteers, and we don't want people to take them. We have our group of donors. Volunteers commonly work with several organizations, and donors donate to a bunch of organizations. Speak to this fear of having these conversations. How do we get people to the table to even explore the potential? Barbara: That is so true. When it comes down to donors and volunteers and corporate champions, suddenly everyone turns into 12-year-old mean girls. You have to stop that mindset. You cannot come from the mindset of scarcity. You have to come from the mindset of, I am a value added. Don't you want volunteers and donors who are passionate about what you're doing? If they're not passionate about you, they're not really your volunteers or donors. They might just be there for the day. Don't you want someone for the long haul to create an authentic long-term relationship with them? Shouldn't you find the right people for your mission that have the passion for it who are truly going to become your partners? Hugh: Russ is thinking on that one. He is bubbling up. Russell: You have to get the right people on the bus. That involves speaking to them in a way that resonates with them. It's finding that spot where you connect, and they get that. One of the things we were thinking about is running an organization, when do you come to the realization that you need allies in the community? Barbara: I'll tell you my life philosophy, which is how I raised my girls. The strongest trees have the most branches. I gave my girls a lot of branches. We don't have family here in Colorado. We moved to the other coast away from everyone. I gave them branches at church. We have branches in the neighborhood. They have branches at school. They had branches at sports. They had a lot of strength because they had a lot of different people in their lives to help nurture them because it does take your village. You should look at your nonprofit the same way. Do you have enough branches? Are you a strong four-legged stool? Do you have grants? Do you have community allies? Do you have individual donors? Do you have a fundraising program? You can't just rely on one leg to be a strong stool. You need a little bit of everything. If you think about how you diversify your personal financial portfolio, we're all told to do that, do that with your nonprofit funding. Is your portfolio diversified? Do you have four strong legs to hold you up? Or are you one grant away from closing your door? If you don't have those four strong legs, go out and make partners. Go out and find community allies. Bring the for-profit sector in to you and share your passion and your story. Russell: What does that process look like? People realize they need partners, but how do I start figuring out which ones I need and how to go about getting them? Barbara: That's a great question. For a lot of people, that is a conversation stopper. They're like, I know I need partners, but I don't know what to do. Then someone comes to your door and needs help, and it ends right there. You have to take some time out to focus on yourself and care for yourself and nurture your own nonprofit before you go the way of blockbustering by the dinosaurs. Look at your board and tell them, “We have this winning partnership idea that we want to collaborate with the for-profit sector for. Can I look at your LinkedIn contacts and see there might be someone there who you could introduce me to?” I am making it perfectly clear that I am not calling that person to ask for a check. I am looking for a true, authentic business partnership where I can increase their brand and community power, and they can help support us.” That is one starter right there. Russell: That is going right through the table and doing something for them first. Where can we add value? That is what a partnership is all about. It's not one-sided. It's about people bringing value. A lot of nonprofits have trouble looking at things that way when they are speaking with donors or potential donors. It's not a hat in hand kind of thing. We can together provide a value that is going to make a change in our community. If we can do that, then we will be able to make some impact. In terms of allies or partners, what qualities do we look for in a good ally, and what do we do to make ourselves good allies for people we want to partner with? Barbara: One of the things I always coach nonprofits on is look at the mission statement. Look at the values of the company. What they're doing right now, before you approach them. We really seem to have similar thought processes here and similar value traits. That would be someone I can approach. Look at their press releases. What are they growing? What are they talking about? When you do reach out to them, you can say, I read that press release and heard this, and this. That really aligns with what we're doing, too. Maybe we can help each other get where we want to be. Russell: You can do that. The difference isn't necessarily- if you have two or three organizations, you multiply your resources exponentially instead of sequentially. Barbara: Absolutely. That's important. When you go out and start this, my philosophy where I found, whether I was doing real estate development or nonprofit business development, is the 30/10/3 rule. I am going to call 30 people. 10 of them want to talk to me. 3 want to say yes, I like that, let's talk some more. Hugh: That's a great ratio. 30/10/3. Talk to 30. 10- Barbara: Call 30. 10 will want to talk to you. I hear about this. 3 of them want to bite into it and say, “This is a good idea. I can see where this is helpful to me and helpful to you. Let's talk.” Hugh: That's an important routine. Russell: Talk to ten for every one you want to secure. That works for any customer base: donors, volunteers, potential board members. I love the idea of making sure that you check that alignment. People like to talk with people who have done some homework and know a little bit about their organization or them as a person. You start asking questions about them. LinkedIn is a good platform. Everybody's favorite subject is them. They're their own favorite subject. It's finding a way to lift them up, and not blowing smoke. People can tell if you're just blowing smoke. If there is an authentic connection, leveraging that and talking about that. Hugh: This is what we call ROR, Return on Relationship. That 30/10/3 rule is ongoing. I hear people say, “I talked to an organization about it, and it didn't work.” I talked to an organization. I say, “I tried working out one day last year, and it didn't work either.” Underneath what I'm hearing you say, there is a continuity. You have to stick with it. There is persistence. Speak to that. We think we're bothering people. No, we're not. We're giving them an opportunity. Help reverse that paradigm, would you? Barbara: You need to have tenacity, just like a business would. I want this. I know I'm making a difference. I know my product is helping the community. You need to have the tenacity, the passion to go out with that and know you're not bothering people. You don't know what problems that business has. You have something to offer to help them with those problems. Do people know your brand? Do you need brand recognition? Do you need a new platform? Are you struggling in the hiring process? You can put a letter from us in your New Hire packet so when people interview with you, you're right there to talk about it. In your follow-up emails, we are right there to say how amazing you are in a video. We're your partnership in everything from sales to hiring. We don't know who we know who might want your products in their stores. Truly embed yourself in that culture. Make it a give-give. Hugh: Russell, do you have your head around what Barbara Jaynes does? Can you explain it for people who are listening to her for the first time? Russell: What she does is bring people together from multiple sectors to solve social problems and put good systems in place and help people have conversations. The conversation that we rarely have, when you're talking with people in nonprofits, is about value, the dreaded V word. That's what we're all bringing to the table. It's helping people understand that they bring value, and to quantify that in terms that makes sense to other people. She helps in bringing business systems. Thinking of your organization as a business, as a producer of value, and approaching it from that place so that you're out there offering everybody you come in contact with something of value, whether they are donors, providing pro bono work, a socially responsible business looking to support a cause, or a nonprofit looking to get support. It boils down to a couple of things: money and people. If you are short on either, at some point, you're going to fold. Hugh: Barbara, how did he do? Barbara: He did great. He is true. I am called the connector. That's important because I connect for winning relationships. He is right about the value add. I like to play the game, “Bigger and Better” in business. Did you ever play the game as a kid where you start off with a paper clip and go door to door? I have a paper clip – what will you trade me that is bigger and better? Then you go to the next door with what they give you and trade for something else. I do the same thing, with my nonprofits and business partnerships. I had a nonprofit I was meeting with and said, “A church came and built our fence a couple weeks ago.” “How did you thank them? How did you follow up?” We are going to send them a letter. “No, no, no. They have parishioners. You go and ask their pastor, ‘We want to thank your congregation in person. Could we have five minutes to stand up after your announcements and personally thank them and let them know what building this fence meant to us and talk about your charity?'” You have a captive audience of 300 or more people. Don't walk away from that. That's not a thank-you letter. Go get them. Hugh: Whoa. Did you hear that? Maybe we should do that. Russell: We have to work on this. When we do get you here to town, we will take you to McDonalds. Then we will swap that from Morton's or something like that. That is too far. The idea is now firmly planted. It's like toothpaste. It's not going back in once it comes out. Hugh: You know who your friends are, don't you? Russell, I heard her talk about installing or teaching business principles to nonprofits. I'm not sure that all businesses have those skills either. They think they do. They have some cash flow that masks their ignorance. That's what Russ and I spend our life doing: helping nonprofit organizations think in terms of cash flow and budgeting and marketing and all the things businesses need. I find sometimes that even businesses that donate or buy sponsorships for nonprofits don't know how to get the benefit of that sponsorship. They donate, but they don't know how to say, “What's this money going to create? What difference will it make?” They don't know how to ask that. When they make a business decision to use marketing money to sponsor an event, they don't know how to get a return on that investment. Is that part of what you help both sides explore? Barbara: It absolutely is, Hugh. It's so important because I teach this to both sides. You need to say, for every $10 we bring in, we provide a box of groceries to a family that will feed them for a week. What nonprofits do with money is magical. For every $20 we can take care of 10 new dogs in our shelter. When you quantify it like that, it lets the business know, Oh, I am donating $5,000. It translates to 500 dogs. This is what I can do. On the nonprofit side, you should always be talking numbers. Numbers ring true with millennials and with businesses. When you say to someone, “This is what $50 can do,” I didn't know you could do that with $50. I would have donated $500; I didn't realize I would have upped my ante. Let them know from the beginning, if you're doing an event, this is how much we want to raise. This is what it breaks down into. For every $20 increment, this is what it will change. Same on the business side. Let people know, Hey, this is what we did last year for nonprofits. Here is the impact for each one of them. Hugh: There is a lot in the ask. I served a church in Atlanta of 12,000. The preacher raised $18 million for the next phase of the building program, to double the size of the facility. He did that in 14 lunches. I was sitting in his office one day, and he had the cash before they dug any dirt. He is reading the newspaper where one of the people he had talked to had given $4 million for a building at one of the local universities. He called that guy up and said, “I'm sorry I asked you for such a small amount.” Russell: When you hit that sweet spot, we underestimate ourselves. It's important to set those expectations. What is it that you want? I think the way to do that would be approaching a foundation or corporation is to look at it that you want to try to get, but find out what they want. Barbara is good at helping them find that because they don't always know what they want to get. She sits with them and works with them and asks them what they want to try to do. You can't get goodwill out of a Madison Avenue magazine spread. It comes with being connected with people, making a difference. If everyone is clear on the common goals, you can set some measures. With donors, it's important to keep in touch with them. After they have written a check, let them know what the money is doing. The money should be quantified not just numerically, but in terms of story, in terms of people who are getting your services. How far those dollars are going. Thanking them. Highlighting some of them. This is what your support is making possible. They hear from you much more frequently than when you need money. if the only time they hear from you is when it's time to write a check, they will run for the hills. Barbara: You are so right. That is not the thing to do. It shouldn't be, I've gotten my check. Life is beautiful. Make that relationship true. Ask them, Can we do a quarterly updated video for your staff? Every quarter, let's update them and let them know the impact and what is going on. You want to triple their Roladex, and they want to keep your employees. You want to embed yourself into the culture to support them and support your nonprofit. You do a video that goes out in an email link to every employee, thank them, let them know what you have done with their money. It's amazing we have these wonderful programs, and we are able to serve so many more people. Last month, we had 50 people come in with this problem. We have to figure out how to solve this. Will you roll up your sleeves and help me solve it? You engage them beyond money. Sweat equity, mentorship, be there for me. I want to hit on something Russ said before about knowing who your audience is. I firmly believe you don't just go out and throw stuff against the wall to see what sticks. So many people will say, “You're a big company. Write me a check.” You have to have a reason. Start with a why. I really researched you. I know what you do. We have the same vibe. We're good for each other. Let's talk about this. Russell: A lot of that goes into the psychology of their branding. You have Nike that says, Just do it. If your message resonates with something along those lines, you get an idea of you look at who is in their commercials. Who are the people they are trying to reach, attract? How many of those people are in your tribe? They want that exposure, that goodwill. It's important to look at that to see how we align with them. Just as importantly, to use language that resonates with them to start a conversation. I think the conversation starts with trying to find the right person. That may not always be somebody with a sponsorship label. It may be somebody in marketing, or have another title. They have different pockets of money. Only a certain number of dollars are earmarked for sponsorship. They could support you elsewhere. It's having that conversation and asking them questions with what you have in mind, and bouncing something off of them. It's trying to dig up information that's not in their literature to get a feel for the person and start building that relationship. After you have an idea of where they're going in that particular point in time, then you tell them about your project. After you have gathered enough information, you ask if it's okay to send a proposal. But these folks are busy. You want to get a 15-mintue interview. Nothing will annoy them more than asking questions that are on their website that they spent money to make. Doing that homework is important. That is what Barbara is masterful at helping you do. Barbara: They have to know that you know who they are. They have to know why. Why have you called me? You need to have a good answer. I went to a meeting with one of my clients. The owner of the company across the table said, “Why did you call on us?” I could tell them exactly why. You belong to this association, and this technology association aligns with what this charity does. He's like, Thank you. You know who we are. We walked out with a check. It made the difference in the world. To take that time, to know who you're talking to, and why you're talking to them. Russell: You don't always expect to walk out with a check on the first visit, but if that's the end result, be open to receiving that. Barbara: My client was very happy. It really opened their eyes to the way that I do my things. I relaly want my clients to learn from my playbook and to be able to run with it and do it on their own. I don't want to be there permanently from them. As your community needs change, you will be able to go out and meet those needs. Russell:We get back to this discussion on value. A lot of businesses quantify that by their products and services. How can a nonprofit do that? A lot of people will sit there and actually have a limited view of what's valuable to other people? What are some things they can do to demonstrate value? Barbara: Know your data. Know who you're helping and how many people you're serving. When you are meeting with that person, you have your numbers and alignment. When you ask that company what they need, do you need us to write a thank you letter that you can send to your vendors to let them know what a community ally you are and support you are? Do you need us to do a video to your vendors to let them know what you're doing? It triples the Rolodex for the nonprofit and puts new eyes on them as well as help the business. Do you need us to do a video for your customers so when they purchase something and get the receipt, I am there to thank them personally and let them know how important you are in the community? They are not getting a pair of shoes; they are getting someone who makes a difference in the world. That's who they're buying from. Tell us what you need. Russell: You mentioned vendors, and I don't know that people think that. Part of the value of your board of directors is the relationships they have. I don't know if people think in terms of we don't have a relationship with XYZ, but we have people on our board who have relationships with W company who is a vendor of XYZ. Do you frequently find that is a good way to approach an organization? Barbara: It is. Using vendors is important. They want that winning relationship with their internal customers. It creates even greater synergy. It gives the company that you want to ally with a better story that they can tell to their vendors. We are not buying copy paper from just anybody; we are buying copy paper from the company that does this. You have their community story, and you have their back. Make sure you are wearing each other's jerseys. Russell: What do you think of that, Hugh? Are you ready to go out and buy a Cleveland Browns jersey and a Denver Broncos jersey just in case it all goes sideways for the Redskins? Hugh: I gather those are football teams. I am not much of a football fan. I am a NASCAR guy. I am in the South. This is intriguing. Let's talk about your organization, Positively-Funded. How did you come to that name? Barbara: I wanted to change the way that nonprofits thought about funding. Not to think that you have to go out with your tail tucked between your legs and grovel and I gotta go out and beg because the lights are getting turned off. No. You have a value add. You have something positive to give to the business world beyond the community that you provide services for. Get out there and be positive with it. I have something to offer. I want to be your partner. I want to make your business thrive so that my community thrives also.   Hugh: It's a win-win proposition. I heard Russ say earlier in the conversation about finding out what other people want. It's something that he introduces to a conversation on finding board members or donors. It would occur to me the same thing would happen here. Find out what the business is interested in. You had done your homework, so you walked out with a check. You had studied what that company was about. I can't tell you how many times that doesn't happen with companies I know. They misspell the person's name in a pitch. That is not a good start. How did you get the name for this company? How did you think of that name? Barbara: It's what I just came up with. I wanted to make a difference in the way and change the mindset of how nonprofits felt they needed to be funded. You don't need to beg. This is a positive thing. You are offering something positive to those financially investing in you, sweat equity investing in you, pro bono. You have something great to offer. Hugh: Let's do a summary here. What are the top three to five mistakes that nonprofits make when they approach a company for some sort of connection, partnership, funding? What is the remedy to those mistakes? Barbara: I think the very first thing is do your homework. Study who you're going after, and know why you're going after them. Don't go in cold. Hugh: The mistake is they don't know what the company does, or who the person is. They have not honored that person at all. Barbara: When you talked about when you're sending out a letter and misspelling the name, I advise to never blindly send out a letter. Do not do that. I research my companies. Call them first. Have a conversation. Then send a follow-up email. Thank them for their time. If you leave a voicemail, send an email. I left you a message this morning, and I want you to know why I left that message. Hugh: When you call a company, who do you ask for? Barbara: It depends on what the nonprofit really needs. You typically look at who is doing their community investments? Most companies have a community investment team. They have an employee engagement team. You ask for those things. Those types of departments. Hugh: The first mistake is know your enemy. You need to know your prospect. The problem is they don't know who they are, know about them, know the personality. The remedy is study who they are and get educated before you even make the first call. Barbara: Absolutely. That is your very first thing. Know your audience. Hugh: Give us a few more. What is a mistake nonprofits make? Barbara: The other thing is going in for the kill, and I just want the check. No. Develop the relationship. You don't just want that check. You need more than that check. You need partners. You need support. You need a strong four-legged stool. Ask for it. I need mentorship. Your CFO, I need help with my books. I need to understand how to financially run better. Give me mentorship. I need from your operations department. We are going to replace our roof in three years. I don't know the first thing about getting a roofing contractor. I need to start saving for that now. I need to know what to look for. What is my best roof to have in the long term? Ask for the help. Ask for the right people. Go bottom to top. Go for their C-suite. Go for their board. Know those people. Research them. Know that you need more than just a check. You need sweat equity and volunteering, too. Hugh: Not knowing your prospects. Get to know them. Go in there thinking it's one and done. Not working on long-term relationship. What's another? Barbara: Not doing your follow-up and diligence. Not keeping that relationship fire stoked. Not staying in touch and saying, What can we offer you? I see that one of your goals is that you want to hire 10 new people. How can I help you with that? Do you want a letter from us saying how amazing you are that goes into your interview packets? Do you want a video for a thank you? How can we help? Do you want an opportunity, so on that person's first day of work, I know a person who does this, every employee's first day of work, they don't show up at the company. This is our charity. You will go there and stock the shelves of this food back and spend the day with them. Tomorrow, you show up here. Hugh: That is great. That's three really good ones. Do you want to float another one? Or is that good? Barbara: I really think it's important that you have your number ducks in a row. Know your numbers. Know your numbers internally. Know how they work. Know your company's numbers. I want to know what your turnover rate has been since we have started this partnership. I want to know your brand recognition. I want to know about your sales. I want to know about your customer satisfaction. I want to know that we have impacted you in return. Hugh: This is also reciprocal. When you are asking for money, you want to ask for a specific amount. There are some people who say, “I want $20-30,000.” That's not specific. There is a $10,000 spread; it doesn't sound like you're careful with my money. It's their money until they give it to you. Russell: Specificity is important. The universe will hear $20,000 if you say $20-30. $20,000 will show up. That's what you put out there. That's what you want. It helps to be specific. It sounds like all of these things, as far as looking for ways to be of service, can help build the long-term relationship with a business or between a business and nonprofit. What are some other things? What are the most important things, say for the business to do, or for the nonprofit to do? Maybe two or three things that are important for each of them to do to make sure that you can build and maintain a long-term relationship. Barbara: I think the very first thing in your follow-up plan is have a regular communication strategy. We're going to talk. Whatever department is your go-to person, have a standing monthly conversation. Update each other. This is how things are going on our side, and here is your impact. Great. This is how things are going on our side, and here is your impact. Keep that communication going. Offer to spend time with their employees. Do a lunch and learn quarterly. Talk about how what seniors need. Here are the latest stats in America for seniors. Here is their food scarcity, transportation problems. Let us come in and talk about our wisdom in our sector, and how you can overcome these things, and how we work together. Hugh: Brilliant. Barbara: Invite us to come to your association. Whatever your trade association is, bring us along. Let us be your dog and pony show. We're there for you. Hugh: That's also part of top of mind marketing. They don't forget you because you're there, and you are always looking to add value to the other. There are business leaders who see nonprofit as their duty. I wrote my check, and I'm done. Rather than looking for the win-win, which takes time. I like your set of questions. Do you work just in Colorado? She has a superior attitude, Russell. I don't know why. Just in Superior. Do you work all over? Barbara: I go beyond Superior, Colorado. Boulder County is my home, that's for sure. I have worked with international nonprofits. I have worked with national nonprofits. I have worked with statewide nonprofits. I work with little babies with a staff of four. Everyone starts somewhere. Everyone can create winning partnerships, no matter what your size is. Hugh: Is there a place on your website where people can ping you and have a conversation with you to explore possibilities? Barbara: Absolutely. My phone number is on there. My email. There is a Contact form you can fill out. Whatever medium is your comfort zone, be it phone or email. Hugh: This is good stuff. I'm a conductor by trade. Musical conductor. Not railroad conductor. The composer/conductor Ralph Long Williams from Britain is known to have said, “Music did not reveal all of its secrets to just one person.” We can say that about funding, partnerships, leadership. It's good. We have gotten some wisdom from a lot of people over the four years. Thank you for your time today. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* The messages you have shared today are close to our heart. We wish people in every community would have some wisdom to share. Barbara, I am going to throw it to you for a closing tip or challenge. Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. This is wonderful to be able to share the good news of you have something to offer. Go out and be positive in your funding. Don't tuck your tail between your legs. I'd like to challenge nonprofits to look at your stool. How many legs do you have? How strong are they? Go find your community allies. Look beyond your traditional scope. What can I do? What do I have to offer? How can I collaborate? How can I be a good community collaborator, not only with the for-profit sector, but with other nonprofits? There is strength in numbers. Go out and be positively funded. Russell: Thanks always, Barbara. I am looking forward to having lunch with you later this week. That is the beauty of the bonus I get, Hugh. Barbara is in my backyard, and we are going to talk to people here and do what we can to come together and make some impact. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There are still a lot of myths surrounding the Massacre at Mountain Meadows. How many were killed?  Historian Barbara Jones Brown says it could be a few dozen lower than original estimates. https://youtu.be/qCENNRBC2uE Barbara: You know what's really interesting about that number is that number comes from Jacob Hamblin who buries the bodies later....He tells federal army officials, federal officials, that it was 120, and then they go with that number. What's interesting is the earliest sources, the earliest body counts, put the number at 95, 96, which surprised me when started getting into those earliest primary sources because I said, "No, it's supposed to be 120." So then I just thought, "Well, where does this number come from?" I looked at all of the sources and they are what I just described to you. So the earliest body counts say about 95 or 96. The number of people who've been identified in the train is about the same. It's about that. GT: So, it might not be as bad as we thought. Barbara: It is as bad as we thought. Even if one person, a massacre [is bad.] GT: That's true. Barbara: Yeah. I mean 95, 120--either way. It still is as bad as we thought. GT: It's terrible. Were children under age 8 spared due to Mormon theology?  Barbara Jones Brown will give us some of the latest information surrounding the massacre, and it likely is different than you've heard. GT: The other question I wanted to ask, so you said that the oldest child that lived was six? I know that there's some Mormon theology. Why six years old? Barbara: So the non-Mormon attorneys that investigated and talk about it later. It says, "Because they were too young to give evidence in court." GT: Oh really? Oh, I always thought it was because children under eight are not capable of sin. Barbara: That theory came much later. GT: Oh, okay. Barbara: It's a modern theory. It doesn't hold up because babies were killed. Some babies were killed in the massacre and seven year-olds were killed. Again, the oldest survivor was six. So, what all of the perpetrators said was they were too young to tell tales. Again, there's a federal district judge named John Cradlebaugh, and he says they were spared because they were too young to give evidence in court. GT: Okay. So it was a legal issue. It wasn't a theological issue. Barbara: That's what the historical sources say. Yeah. I can't find a single historical source that says, "Oh, we're not going to kill them because they're not eight yet." There's not a single historical source that says that. Find out what other myths Barbara can dispel!  Check out our conversation…. Public Domain photo of painting from 1800s of Mountain Meadows. Here are our other conversations with Barbara: 257: Revenge for Haun's Mill & Pratt's Murder? (Jones Brown) 256: Utah War & Mountain Meadows Massacre (Jones Brown)

Barbara and Andrew catch up on their 4th annual check in to discuss the state of the world. They talk about the way death has been a force in Barbara's life. How maybe being real is more important that being upbeat. The role of social media in both their lives. And Andrew's claiming of the term Magnificent Weirdo.  If you missed the previous interviews go check out episodes 44, 58, and 72 first.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Barbara can be found at her website here.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book a reading or private lesson with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast, everybody. I am here today with Barbara Moore, and this is essentially our fourth annual check in and hang out. We started these conversations a number of years back, and just sort of fell into the habit of kind of following up and seeing where life has gotten to and what's going on. And you know, I think it's going to be an interesting episode because we're … For both of us, it's been a year of a lot of change, and, you know, a lot of transformation and [00:00:32] you know, so yeah, let's get to it.  Hey Barbara, what's going on? What's new?  BARBARA: (laughing) What's new … We have just celebrated our one-year anniversary in our new home. It's, like you said, been a year of a lot of change, you said transformation. I don't think that my stuff is actually in the transforming (laughs) [00:01:02] stage yet. It's still in the … Feels like it's still in the breaking down phase. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I really think it would be more the end of the transformation, like the butterfly stage by now, but that has not happened.  ANDREW: Uh-huh.  BARBARA: But I suppose, what's new? The biggest newest thing that's been kind of a theme this year for me has been death. Death has been new to me. I have not had a lot of death in my life. [00:01:34] And so, I've had a lot of it pretty close and intimate, really intimate, this year. In fact, the most intimate … wow, we're going to start right off with the big stuff … the most intimate connection with death on one level, I had just one week ago today. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And that was when …? Okay. So, the … how ... the place we live in is attached to a house on [00:02:04] property owned by a couple named Carol and Noel. I did mention them last year. And, and Noel died on Friday. And this is not unexpected. He was quite old, and was in hospice and dying for quite some time. And Carol knows that I have done a little bit of priestess work, little bit of ritual stuff. And so, the hospice caregiver was preparing Noel's [00:02:34] body. Oh, because they didn't take the body away to a mortuary or anything like that. They kept him at home, and—for a week—and he just went away on Thursday, and so he wasn't going to be embalmed or anything.  And so, the hospice caregiver asked, and Carol asked, if I would help prepare his body, which (laughs) was really freaky for me because I've never done anything [00:03:04] like that. I've never been a good, you know … Some people are good caregivers, you know, like if someone's sick, they're good at taking care of them and comforting and cleaning. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I've never been that. It's just not something that has been a strength for me. And, you know, but part of this whole year is doing things that scare me. And so, yeah, so I helped wash [00:03:34] him, and then we crumbled up lavender into some oil and anointed his whole body, and dressed him, and I … It's been a week and I still, I've told people I can't really talk about it yet, because I haven't fully processed what I think or feel about that situation, and even just talking about it, I can feel the fluttering in my chest, you know, like a sign of anxiety that [00:04:04] I haven't really finished processing that experience. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: But I guess we could say that that's really metaphoric for what this past year has been. I've been getting up close and personal with death in many forms and still sorting out my relationship with it. ANDREW: Death is one of those things that we don't … I mean, I consider [00:04:34] myself a person who's comparatively really comfortable with death. I'm very, you know, close and aware of death. You know, I mean, I've been through a lot of very close loss in my life, you know, my … Two of my brothers passing away, and, you know, the people that I've known passing away, and I think that … Death is always an uncomfortable companion. Even if you are, [00:05:04] relatively speaking, comfortable with it being around, you know, it's always … It's never, it's never entirely settled, and I think that, you know … Like grief, grief is never entirely settled, you know, it might be 20 years and some conjunction of things will kick some little pocket of it back up into the foreground again, you know. So. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah. I think what [00:05:35] has driven me for most of my life is making things, producing things, working, and I think whenever any kind of loss comes to me, into my life, I would just kind of pat it down and run over it and just keep going. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, like it's not affecting me. It happened. It's done, move on, move on, and this [00:06:05] year, the kinds of death have been really much larger, and I've been not working much. I mean, I've been doing my regular work like I explained in the last podcast. I did kind of have the year off, except for, you know, just the basic work, just keep feeding myself, but I've had a lot more downtime and quiet time, and it's almost like I needed training wheels to feel, [00:06:35] cause I'm not, I wasn't used to, what am I feeling? Even just even letting the feeling come to the surface, and then the next step, identifying it, and what you do with it, and how does it fit in with where you want to go with your life, or whatever, and cause I don't even know what order I should tell all the stories. But just this example of feeling the feelings associated with death, just met ... [00:07:05] my father also died. He died in September, and I just started … just like last night, actually. I started feeling the feelings of grief, you know, like, oh my God, I miss him so much, and you know, so it's been almost two months, and I … And it's just happening now, you know.  And my beloved [00:07:35] companion Whiskey, my golden retriever, died in June and I wasn't home to say goodbye to her. I was in Minnesota at the time. And you know, it took like a couple months for those feelings to come up. So, you know, I feel like even though I'm into my 50s, I have had little practice with this compared to most people my age. So, it has been real interesting.  Oh, and that [00:08:05] reminds me too, right before I moved, my friend Nancy and I were messing around with our cards and stuff, and she's like, “Well, let's pull a card and see, you know, what big theme you can expect from this move.” And she pulled the Death card, of course, and was like, “Oh, wow, this is going to change your life in more ways than you think!” And she pulled another card. And it was the Emperor. And she's like, you know, because I'm a very structured person, a very organized person. She's like, “It's going to really blow that part of you [00:08:35] to bits.” But what she couldn't have known, and of course hindsight is, you know … The Emperor, for a lot of people, is associated with a father figure, you know, so it's like “your father will die.” Okay, but again, it's all metaphor, and it's all tied together, and bigger themes, and then I was writing to one of my pen friends and I was giving her my new P.O. box number and she's like, “Oh, your P.O. box numbers add up to 13. It's a Death year for you.” I went, “Oh, wow. Okay.” So, [00:09:05] yeah.  ANDREW: Do you, do you follow the year card system? Are you ... For, you know, birth cards and year cards? Is that a thing for you?  BARBARA: I do ... My birth cards and the year cards, I don't, I do some years, and some years I don't. And I don't even know if I know what mine was. I didn't think I needed another one. Okay, I think I'll just ... The Death card wants to be my card this year. I think we'll just go with it. Of course, knowing ... You know, when you don't have a real [00:09:35] experience with it, it can feel like, “Ooh, it's exciting, things are going to change,” because in the past, in my life, when things have changed, it's always been like, good, and pretty easy, and exciting, and not involving all of this that we're having here. Yeah.  ANDREW: Well, you know, I think that death, death, death on all those levels is always such a complicated [00:10:07] companion, right? You know? I mean, coming to the endings of things is, you know, in some ways, a relief, especially for Noel. Right? I mean that's a, that's a relief, right? of that sort of, you know, slow movement across that line, you know? But the kind of change that it tends to bring isn't really, you know, it … Even if it's sudden, even if the change is sudden, [00:10:37] the energy of it sort of lingers, right? You know, like Crowley talks about the Death card as sort of … Sometimes it's the fall of the scythe and sometimes it's this, like, putrefaction, this slow breaking down and rotting of things, right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: And hang out and sort of watch elements of yourself or your life kind of decompose, right? Like we were talking about before we got on the line today, you know? It's like that black [00:11:07] phase, that nigredo phase, in alchemy, right? Where, you know, everything just starts to like, break down, and it's, you know, that's the long dark night of the soul time, right? Where all of a sudden, you're like, “I don't know where anything was going. I don't know what any of this means anymore. Does any of this matter?” Right?  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. The “does any of this matter?” has been a really strong push, or no, it's been a strong question in me this [00:11:37] year. You know, whenever I think of doing something or ... maybe I should take up a project, maybe I should get back to work, maybe I should do something, and like what, what's worth … What does it matter? ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And I really truly hope I don't stay in this space for much longer because it is not comfortable. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember when … In the months after my brothers died. And for those who don't know, two of my brothers passed [00:12:07] within six weeks of each other, it's about nine years ago now, and so it was … It was really intense the first time, and then it was just, double down, you know, sort of six weeks later. And you know, like, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Trying to, you know, like underst-, what does any of it even mean any more after this kind of situation? And all those kinds of questions. [00:12:37] And the thing I kind of kept coming back to was, Well, I've got to do something with my time regardless. So, what is it I want to do? (laughing) What is it ... Like, is it just eat a bucket of ice cream? That's fine too. Right? Is it, you know, something else? What is it? Cause I've got to do something with my time other than just sit and wonder if any of it means anything, you know? You know? You know? And so, that kind of ultimately, you [00:13:08] know, led me, led me out of most of it, you know, and back into sort of being in the world and being engaged in things, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, hopefully that will start happening with me. I have spent my fair share of time just laying on the bed, you know, being all angsty and eating ice cream and whatnot. [00:13:38] But I've also done, you know, I've been reading more fiction, nothing that's, you know, enlightening my mind or anything, and painting nothing worth showing anybody. I have stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff that is completely pointless, and I'm like, why am I doing this? It's the only thing I feel like doing so I'm doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: It feels really [00:14:08] indulgent in a weird way.  ANDREW: But isn't that part of what life is about? Like, I think that life as opposed to death is about indulgence, right? BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: No, maybe I'm too Sagittarian and too Jupitarian in that regard. But, you know, I think that life really is about indulging those things and you know, somewhat like the Fool, right? If we indulge those things, whatever meaning [00:14:38] there is will emerge over time. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, as opposed to this idea that I think that we often have that we can determine what the meaning is and then, you know, set on a course of embodying that. You know, I mean, it's like a thing that I think I said to you a long time ago, right? Like, you know, the road knows what star is yours, but you can't figure it out before you leave the house, right? You know? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Yeah.   BARBARA: Yeah. That's so contrary to the way I've lived [00:15:08] my life, and, as you're speaking those words again, I can feel the truth and beauty in them; at the same time, I feel part of myself resisting. ANDREW: Sure.  BARBARA: So. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, it is definitely the black phase of alchemy, man. This breaking down, this breaking down, like when I left social media, a lot of it was fueled by, I was shaping my self-image based [00:15:38] on how people on social media saw me or responded to me. And so, I wanted to not let that be driving how I was shaping myself. But, and so, taking that away, what's left? What's take what shaping myself is my work? It's always been my work. What am I doing? What am I putting out there? How much am I teaching, how many books am I publishing, how many decks am I creating, what am I doing? And [00:16:08] like you said, we can't always set the outcome and move toward it and embody it and manifest it. Sometimes it's just all something my friend Ricardo says, similar to what you said, is, you can't see the path in the woods until you're in the woods, you know? It's dark and you can't see it until you're there. And yeah, so, you know, what are all the [00:16:38] paintings? They're mostly portraits of strangers, people I don't know ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, just like stock images or, you know there are these sites that, where people post pictures for artists to use as reference ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And it's all I'm doing is painting these strangers. It's just very weird. ANDREW: Well, I think that's really interesting, cause you never really know what's gonna come back around. I have this painting on the wall in the shop that I did. [00:17:09] I don't even know how long ago. It has no date on it. Seven or eight years ago maybe? And it's of a ... it's of a red-wing blackbird. And you know, I I've been thinking about making art again and showing art. I was in a show recently and sort of thinking about sort of the idea of not just making sort of decks and stuff like that. I mean still making those things as well, but also making [00:17:39] art for the sake of making art to show and share, you know, and ... And I was looking at this painting which has been, you know, in my reading room the whole time since I made it, so for a long time now. And I was like ... And I was talking to an artist and talking about how inspired I was by Basquiat and their really large works that they painted. You know, [00:18:09] they had a showing here in Toronto awhile back and some of the paintings are like six-foot square and stuff like that. And I'm feeling this urge to work big, I'm like, but I don't really have space to work big, you know, all the excuses come in, and then like I was looking at this painting of a bird and I was thinking, and then immediately I was like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to photograph that, I'm going to blow it up, and then I'm going to paint on top of it and make it into a new painting through that process. And so, I [00:18:39] just got the prints, so they're two by two by three feet big, as opposed to like, five by eight or something like that, which the small thing is originally, and I'm going to mount it to some kind of board and then I'm going to start reworking on top of it, stuff like that. So, you just never know what comes back around, you know, like those strangers may emerge in some really new way or lead to something else, you know?  BARBARA: Are you going to use acrylics on top of that, or ... ? ANDREW: [00:19:10] I'm going to ... I'm going to use ... I have these acrylic markers. So, I'm going to use those. And I'm going to use ink, so I'm going to like go in and I want to do a mix of big scale stuff on it and really really super intimate things, like, you know, like the branch at the bird is sitting on because [00:19:40] it was painted small is essentially just a few very simple strokes of simple colors, right? But I'm going to go in embellish that, and then I'm going to go in and work with some varnish and stuff. So, some stuff will be really varnished and shiny from certain angles, and like I have a bunch of ideas about it. And then I feel like I can also feel there's some other birds like, “Hey, do me next. Do me next!” BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: So, you know, I feel like it's going to become a body of something, right? [00:20:10] But what that is, I don't really know, but you know, they've always been my companions, right? You know, I mean, I have this habit of I just go and follow the birds through the woods until they stop and then I realize where I need to be and stop and hang out with the Earth and that place and things like that, right? So, I have a very like strong connection to them. So, yeah. BARBARA: God, I can't wait to see. It sounds like it's going to be really really cool. I'm feeling excited for the process for you just hearing about it. ANDREW: Yeah. It's been [00:20:45] a long time since I ... since I had a sir purely process-driven thing and it's been a long time since I made ... Like I'm not even sure the last time I made a piece of art that wasn't for a deck, you know girls. It's been quite some time since I've since I did that. So. Yeah. Yeah.  BARBARA: I was just thinking, you know, we kind of led with the heavy stuff, which seems natural, it's been on my mind, [00:21:15] but I wonder maybe it wouldn't be nice to have a little interlude of a few happy or positive things that have already been kind of coming out of the ashes.  ANDREW: Yeah! BARBARA: Just so people don't get too depressed and quit listening. (laughs) But, you know, one of the things is ... I have two examples I'd love to share. The first is regarding my father's death. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, my father. He had [00:21:45] five kids: me and two sisters from my mom, and then my sister and brother from my stepmother. So there's five of us. And out of the five of us, three of us are really close, me and two of my sisters, and then the other two live in Michigan still and not quite as close. And one of the things my dad always said was he wished that we were all closer. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: That was super important to him and [00:22:15] he ... When things started getting bad for him in July, my siblings and I started a sibling text chain just so we could ... and just so we could keep up on stuff .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And all be fully informed. And throughout the process between July and October, that ... the time when he was like actively dying and in hospice and then planning the funeral and whatnot, my siblings and I worked [00:22:46] together, not like a well-oiled machine cause that sounds so cold, but like a bunch of dancers who know their steps and that complement each other. And so that was just really super amazing. And then when the funeral, which was in Michigan, all my siblings were already there and I was flying in, like the day before, and so I get to the Detroit airport and my [00:23:16] siblings text me and they're like, we're all here. Like, so it was just us five siblings, without spouses, without kids, without anything, just the five of us and I don't remember the last time the five of us were alone together and all in one place. So we stopped for a drink on the way home, and just you know, toasting dad and sharing stories, sharing intimate moments that we had with our dad that we'd never told anyone before .... ANDREW: Right. BARBARA:  You know and just got really really [00:23:46] close. And in that weekend of the funeral, it was like my dad's last gift to us. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: He made a situation where we all fell in love with each other. ANDREW: That's wonderful. BARBARA: It really, it really is wonderful. And you know, so I'm so grateful for that because we still have that text chain going and you know, at least once a week we're, you know, sharing things about our lives and you know, encouraging each other, so that was super awesome. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And [00:24:18] a real blessing. Then the other was, it's a little bit still close, but it was still like such a remarkable experience, was you know, like I said, Noel died. And so we kept him at home and people would come, you know, to just sit with him and be with people, you know, kind of like a wake kind of thing.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Oh, oh, but I do need to tell you this little local flavor thing, you know cause I do live here in this little tiny valley [00:24:48] and the technology is pretty sketchy. And you know, there's no like Potter Valley Facebook group or anything where people share what's going on. They do it the old-fashioned way. Like when the fires were happening this summer, there's this one kind of a park area where everyone who comes in and out of the valley drives past, and they had a big like a sandwich board sign where they had updates on the fire and a map of the evacuation areas and [00:25:18] stuff. You know, and that's how people found out stuff.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And so, for Noel's funeral, we wanted--or whatever. It wasn't really a funeral, we'll call it a funeral. We wanted to let people know, and so, Dylan and I made, you know, two really big cardboard signs saying, just saying, that Noel passed away. Community visiting at his home and the hours and hung one up at the corner store [00:25:48] and one on the corner of the street where we live. And that's how we communicated the information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And one time, you know, we were walking, Dylan and I were out walking out to visit the Pigs who live on the corner where the sign was, and you know a man was driving up the mountain. He stops and he's like, “Oh so, you know, Noel died.” Yeah, yeah, you know, just people talk more, it's more face-to-face or, very old school.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Well anyways, back [00:26:18] to the cool part was: when you're getting cremated, apparently, they give you this cardboard box that's, you know, you put the body in and so we left it out in a large area of the house with a bunch of art supplies and people decorated it.  ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: You know, so he ... By the time it was done, it was just like covered in pictures and symbols and Sufi prayers and all kinds of other prayers and blessings [00:26:48] and gratitude and things for him. So, you know, he was sent off to his, you know, final physical whatever before he got cremated in this, not a beautiful wooden brass box, but this cardboard, little, holy, humble, cardboard box decorated with all this love and amazement. It was just really different than anything I'd ever experienced before and just how loved he was by the community and it [00:27:19] was just a really really awesome experience. It's amazing.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  BARBARA: Okay, happy interlude's done.  ANDREW: Happy interlude's done! (laughing) ANDREW: You know, I mean I guess, I think that there's something that I'm curious about. Now you're talking about social media again, right? You know? And like, are you going to go back? Do you ... is there anything [00:27:49] that you need from it? If you go back, how does it ... how does it impact your way of formulating your identity, you know and like those kinds of things? And I'm really, I'm really interested in this right now because .... Because in some ways, I feel like, you know, not, not recently but sort of historically, I've been somewhat absent from my social [00:28:19] media. You know, my social media has always been about the work or the things versus about me as a person. You know? And, not entirely but I mean, the podcast is definitely the place where, you know, I'm more visible, you know, or I'm more audible, I guess, as the case may be. And, you know, and I've been consciously changing that over the last while. You know? And changed [00:28:50] in part because of some conversations I had with, you know, Carrie and a few other people about stuff.  But mostly they're changing because I had this dream ... I often have dreams with Andy Warhol in them. And you know, he often comes to give me advice and tell me about stuff, and in some ways, my return to making art is also at his prompting. And the first dream that I [00:29:20] had, I was hanging out with Andy at his famous warehouse, you know, and we were there talking about making art and being seen and all of this kind of stuff. And he kind of like, we were talking, like, and he just stopped the conversation at one point in the middle of like something else, and he goes, “Andrew, you don't understand, you're a magnificent weirdo, and the world needs that right now. The world needs you to show everybody [00:29:50] your magnificent weirdness because that's what they're, what's important, and that's what's going to, you know, be significant about your work and your art and all of these things.” And I was like, in the dream I was like, “All right, Andy, I can do that. No problem,” right? And then we went on to talk about making art and other things and so on, right? And before we went on, though, he also turned around and sort of announced loudly to everyone's faces, you know, “Andrew's a magnificent weirdo, and you all should be paying attention to what he's doing,” right? [00:30:20] Something like that. And so, I've been thinking about Andy Warhol, and thinking about social media, and thinking about all of these kinds of things, and really endeavoring to sort of engage it on my own terms, you know, and really sort of share what I think is important or helpful. Helpful—helpful's the wrong word for it. Cause I'm not so interested in what's helpful. But share what [00:30:50] feels really real and what feels really particular to me, you know? And you know, I made this shirt up, that I started wearing around, that says “magnificent weirdo” on it.  BARBARA: Aw! ANDREW: Which I find particularly amusing. You know, it's kind of my talismanic t-shirt, so.  BARBARA: Oh! I love that! You ARE a magnificent weirdo. That's ... How wonderful to have Andy Warhol as your advisor and, well, maybe not muse, but your advisor ... (laughs) ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure, right?  BARBARA: Mm-hmm. [00:31:21] Does that mean you're starting to engage your social media more as ... more personally, then?  ANDREW: Yeah, definitely more personally. Definitely, I'm showing up there more. I'm sharing more of my life, you know, definitely, it's definitely a thing that's sort of continuing to emerge, you know, and especially as I'm getting into making art, like I don't know what these bird things are going to be, but I'm going [00:31:51] to share that process and journey along the way, you know. And, yeah, sharing more of my personal story and that kind of stuff. So, whereas in the past, I would sort of have tended to just leave stuff alone until it felt resolved and then share the resolved story of it, you know, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I've always ... I haven't always successfully done but I've always tried. Like, I knew [00:32:21] this one teacher who was talking about, you know, public speaking, and writing, and you know, you and your audience and he said, “Don't work your shit out in front of your audience.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And you know, so I've always tried to not do that. You know, like these people aren't here to be my therapy session. They're here to learn what I learned, you know to get something helpful but--to use your word--but maybe [00:32:51] that's not the only way to think about sharing. Maybe the only purpose of sharing isn't only what you may deem as helpful or a nice clean process or technique that you can also use to change your life or fix your life or improve your life. Just sharing your unique and awesome weirdness might have value. I don't ... How would you say that? Because you said not [00:33:21] necessarily be helpful, cause you're not interested in that. So, what is the effect, then?  ANDREW: So, I mean, for me the effect is ... and you know, I think it'll be interesting what comes back for people who listen to this episode, right? You know, I think that what happens is there's this notion that people who are in positions like we're in, right? You know, like working as a [00:33:51] card reader, having a degree of success, having published and done other things, right? That somehow, we've all got our shit together and we don't struggle and nothing's difficult, you know, and I think that you know, sort of, “Wow, you know, I mean, Barbara Moore didn't just bounce right back after the death of her dad, I guess I can cut myself some slack.” Or, you know, look at that, we're all human, or you know, like these kinds of things, I think that that's [00:34:21] that that's part of it. And I also think that, particularly in the magnificent weirdo case, you know, I mean I was ... I hadn't realized that I used this phrase until someone started mirroring it back to me every time I used it, which is, you know, I would say, “Well, it's funny being me sometimes,” and then I would like say something [00:34:51] that was like, really really different about my life compared to many people's lives, right? And you know, and they were .... this person was always amused by it. But I started to realize that like, my, I don't see my life as a role model at all, but my life is super radically different than so many people's. You know? I mean, you know, we talked a little bit about but, before about this, I've mentioned before in the podcast, [00:35:21] I'm getting divorced right now, right? You know. Myself and Hanlon sort of both realized that you know, after quite a stretch of time, we've come to this place where what we want and who we've become is just different, you know? We really, you know, have a very different ... We have different goals and they don't really line up in ways that don't start to kind of curtail each other's possibilities, [00:35:51] right? Which is something that neither of us is really wanting to happen, right? You know. So, you know, so this year has been, has been, really, like the last six months has been working through that process and so on, right?  But, you know, I mean, I'm ... I've been in a non-monogamous relationship for, you know, the last three and a half, four years or something. And, you know, [00:36:21] before we had kids, almost the whole time of our relationship before that. So, I'm not ending this relationship and then figuring out who am I and how do I start dating again and you know, all of these kinds of things. You know, I mean, I have a relationship with, you know, this person, Sarah, who I've been seeing for two-and-a-half years, and there are other dates that I've gone on and other connections and so on. So, even just that: it's such a [00:36:51] different perspective than almost anybody that I know in that regard. Right? And doing what I do for a living, and you know, my religious practices, and like so many of the things that I do are just so radically different and, not that that is either a role model or the way in which people should see things or whatever, but I find that as I share those things, it's ... It [00:37:21] opens up people's ideas and sort of gives them permission to be like, huh? Well, what would I like to do that's maybe not the thing that's done. Or what would, you know, am I interested in these sort of ideas that I've been living? Do they serve me anymore? You know? Or maybe I've always wanted to be more this way or that way or whatever and so sort of seeing those things happen in other people's lives, you [00:37:51] know, to get ... It's a, it's a chance to inspire people not to be like me, but to be like themselves, right? So, yeah and again, not in a like, “I've got it figured out in this and that whatever way, cause it's not like that at all, right? But in a like, huh, you know, hang out with me as an invitation to be fully yourself, right? You know. [00:38:21] And for a lot of people, you know, that's not necessarily something that they get a lot of invitation to, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah! Right. Probably not nearly enough people get that invitation. There's so many other forces helping tell us who we should be and how to live. ANDREW: Right? Yeah. And internalized forces too, right? Like even if, even if they're not around us now, you know, those older voices, they can still kick around, right?  BARBARA: Oh, [00:38:51] and maybe even like instinctual survival impulses, you know, like to survive in the world you have to be successful and you have to be this .... ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, and so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot trying to box us in and very little inviting us out. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: But then we have an awesome weirdo to help us! ANDREW: (laughing) Yeah. BARBARA: (laughing) Yeah, I definitely get and [00:39:21] appreciate the value of that approach, and its budding up against one of my older, and perhaps, just society's older idea. You know, if someone's going to write a book or teach, you expect them, or this used to be true, or maybe it was just true for me and people like me, you expect them to be masters of what they're teaching. And therefore, we get all worked out and you [00:39:52] know, when a book comes out or a kit or a deck comes out, it's usually a really happy excited moment, like, “Oh, my thing has hit the world and it's out there.” And I didn't really have that same experience with one of my recent books, The Modern Guide to Energy Clearing? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Because, you know, I wrote the book based on my experiences. And now I'm, [00:40:22] this past year, I've been in a place where, I feel like, if I would have practiced everything I preached in that book, I'd be way further along than I am now, in terms of adjusting, and I don't know, not being in this black alchemical place. But it made me shy, maybe a little embarrassed, to go .... because there were a lot of publicity opportunities, unlike all my tarot stuff, [00:40:52] which there's hardly any, with this book there were invitations to radio shows and bookstores and all kinds of things, and I didn't do all of them. I did some of them because I felt like I owed it to the book and to my publisher. And you know, you have a responsibility when you're partnering with a publisher. It's not just your thing. It's their investment as well. And I think part of what made me really shy about it is cause I was in the midst of [00:41:23] “You guys, I have these tools, these techniques, these skills, this knowledge and I am too--I am too raw to do 'em.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And, it just felt almost hypocritical, and perhaps there needs to be another book, or maybe just an article that explains when you're doing energy work, sometimes you have to just let things sit and decompose and [00:41:53] you don't always get to control how fast that happens. So, yeah. ANDREW: I think that this idea of the ... like the wise teacher who's got their, all their stuff together. I think it's really a problem. I think it's really dishonest and [00:42:23] I think that it's why .... I think that it's one of the forces that allows so many problematic things to exist in a variety of communities, right? I think that it's one of the things that you know, at it ... at one of its worsts, right? encourages, you know, stuff that we could, you know, that the me too movement seeks to address, right? Because the perception is that these teachers [00:42:53] or leaders or community people or whatever, you know, in the spiritual communities have their stuff so together, right? And how could they not? And therefore this other person must be the problem? You know. I think it's one of the mechanisms which that happens under. And I think that ... I think that it sort of comes out of the sort of ... Well, I mean, I don't know where it originates from, but like in the ceremonial stuff in the more hierarchical [00:43:23] and initiatory things that I used to be involved in, in those ways. There was this notion that somehow, we would become perfect. Right? We would become enlightened. We would achieve these things. You know, but like, you know, my elders in, you know, in the Lukumí tradition, they're always like, “I'm just a person doing things. I'm doing my best, but like, I'm not perfect.” And there's no expectation to be perfect. [00:43:53] There's an expectation to cultivate character, to work on yourself, to you know, to grow, to be honest, and you know, and ideally to sort of continually seek out those things in yourself that you might need to work on in one way or another. But there's no expectation to sort of necessarily be perfect or, you know, be free of humanness, because it's not about transcendence, it's about living in this world, right? [00:44:23]  And I think that a lot of the, you know, especially the stuff that people might refer to as sort of the love and light movement, you know? It's so ... there's so much emphasis on sort of transcendence and so on that, you know, that we continually hear about these people whose humanness re-emerges or finally is seen in a certain way. And then ... and then what does that mean for those people, you know? From my point of view, It doesn't mean anything. Just like you being raw, of [00:44:53] course you're raw after all of these losses, right? Of course you are. Because you know, we shouldn't deny the reality or the shadow or you know, our suffering, because life is hard, but we can work at handling it easier, better, more consciously. You know? Maybe more consciously is the best way to frame it, but that doesn't mean that we're suddenly able to do everything, you know? I mean, I keep joking--and maybe it's not even a joke anymore, [00:45:23] maybe it's just a statement of what's going to happen. You know when the separation happens and we both have our own places and whatever. I'm like, I'm just gonna sleep for a week. It's going to  be like, the first week I'm just gonna be like, okay, shut everything off and just stay in bed and order pizzas and, you know, nap a lot and watch Netflix, cause, you know, I need some like nothing time. I need some recharging after all this work, you know? And I think that, you know, that's valid. [00:45:53] You know? That's not anti-spiritual. You know? Oh well. I feel like I'm ranting now so I'll stop. BARBARA: Yeah, no, you're preaching, preach it, brother! (laughing) I'm ... Congregation of one, right here!  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, no, it reminds me of a funny thing my ... one of my sisters would always say to me. Well, not always, it's happened a couple of times when I have like very obviously and [00:46:23] clearly fallen short of my own ideals and I'm all upset about it. And she's like, “I love it when this happens to you.” “What do you mean?” “Because you seem more human to me in these moments.” And this is my sister, you know, and I don't want any walls between her and I and I don't want to be on a higher place or on some transcendent plane or whatever. I [00:46:53] want to be with her. And so, when I screw up, that's when I'm with her more, at least on some level.  ANDREW: Yeah for sure. Well, it's, you know ... I've been doing ... For the last few years, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing. And you know, I've been sort of ramping back into it after being injured doing something else earlier in the year and climbing with some old friends, but some new climbing partners. And [00:47:23] the one, the guy was like, “It makes me so happy when I see you struggle on the wall. I'm sorry, but like usually you're just so graceful about it that I feel like it just looks so easy to you, and even though you come down and I can see that you're like panting cause it was so hard, you made it look so easy that it just makes me feel bad about myself. So, when you struggle it makes me feel better about myself!” And I'm like, that's fine. That's fair too. Right? Like, you know. I think that that's, that's part of it, right? [00:47:53] You know, when we get to see other people's humanity, then we get to see and make space for our own, in one way or another, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said the idea of the wise old teacher has some inherent problem. And maybe people in general, or maybe a new idea of the archetypal teacher is starting to emerge, or maybe a new facet of it, as we're starting [00:48:23] to explore, you know, or maybe things will change, maybe we'll expect different things from our teachers.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that what I expect of my teachers are really kind of two things. You know, you used the word mastery earlier, right? And I think that certainly knowledge, right? You know, I mean, I expect them to really deeply know what they're, like, I'm there to learn knowledge from [00:48:53] them. And, so that's one part of it. And then the other part is, you know, is like honest relationships, you know? And having honest relationships debate what's going on and what's going on with them and space for me to be honest about what's going on for me and so on. You know, I think that those things together are what I really expect, you know, and like, you know, it's I've had the chance to meet a lot [00:49:23] of people who, you know, in one way or other, people would see as sort of wise masters or whatever, you know? And they're lovely human beings, and they're still human beings. You know? And I think that that's never not going to be the case, right? You know? Yeah. BARBARA: Well, I told you earlier one of the things that I ... the only thing I did really to prepare for today's conversation was to [00:49:53] relisten to last year's podcast.  ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And, you were just ... sounded like you were just starting to explore something kind of new and interesting that I was excited to hear more about and now I'd love to hear more about the work with meteorites and moldavite.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that ... I think in some ways that [00:50:23] work was precipitation of the separation and divorce stuff, right? You know? I mean, I think that the idea of ... I mean, you know, it certainly wasn't consciously formulated, but, you know, the sort of idea of possibly, you know, I mean, the metaphor that I was working with of was like the idea of moving to [00:50:53] a bigger space, right? Leaving the planet and being an interstellar traveler and sort of engaging a bigger world, a variety of planets, you know, like this kind of idea, right? And I think that one of the things that that energy supported me through was and is through the idea of separating from my partner of 21 years, so that's definitely been a part of it.  I [00:51:23] also feel like this one's harder to talk about it because I feel like it's still underway, but I feel like the shop that I have, my work as a deck creator and author, and my work magically have all been sort of escalating into new places. And I feel like, [00:51:53] especially sort of going into next year, I'm going to be really living a completely different reality. And I imagine there's going to be a lot more space for my spiritual stuff in that newer reality. So, I think that that's a part of what's come of that transition.  And also, I think the other thing that I've sort of ... I'm [00:52:23] still working on sorting it out on a practical level, but there's this ... There's this software company, or company that makes a software called Basecamp, and they structure their company work around these eight-week cycles. So basically, they, one of the things that I heard about what they do is that they have a six-week [00:52:53] work cycle, one week of cleanup and planning the next work cycle, and then they take a week off. And I've been really sort of starting to think about how do I, in order to make the arts and the magic and the other things that I would want to be doing and feel called to be doing, I need more space, right? I need more time. And you know, so I've been, I also [00:53:23] feel like that changing notion of what my space and time is going to look like is also kind of come out of that work, right? This idea that I can be somehow in between things. You know? Now's the time where I'm on Mars doing Mars things, and now I'm back floating in the space of my in-between time, doing whatever that is, and then go back to the next place, and you know, and the metaphor doesn't entirely hold but I think the idea, you know, makes [00:53:53] sense, right? That, so it's really ... It's about allowing. Allowing for the space and letting go of all those sort of structures and ideas that sort of hinder that possibility and making space for that to happen, you know? And I mean, I'm not sure how long it's going to take for me to completely reorganize my life and work and other things into that, into that direction. You know, it might take another year or whatever. But it doesn't really matter. But I feel [00:54:23] like all of those pieces kind of come out of, come out of that work that started with the meteorites, you know, a year or so ago. BARBARA: Cool, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: Yeah, it's a work of shedding and becoming, right? You know, and I don't think that I was aware of the shedding of house. I was aware of the shedding at a sort of big picture level, but I wasn't aware of it as a sort of more personal [00:54:53] level when I started that. So, yeah. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, are you ... Do you think you're gonna find your way back to the to the wider world or do you think that you're ... I feel like you've been on a hermitage in the valley in the mountains. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, do you feel like that's something that's just going to continue? Or do you feel like it's time to shift that? BARBARA: That is a really good question, [00:55:23] really pertinent question at this point. I have just been starting to have, like, actual feelings about wanting to come out of my hermitage. It's super hard to do that cause it's my natural inclination. It's where I would be, always, if people who loved me weren't concerned about my mental and emotional health (laughs), but [00:55:55] living here, but like I said, it's so old school that it really feeds that. Like when I was in the cities and when I was involved in the wider world, it ... sometimes it felt like if it isn't seen by people on the Internet, it isn't real? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I'm sure that's just a me thing. I don't think it's like everybody has that feeling, but it was definitely affecting me like that. But there are, like there's [00:56:25] a women's circle here that meets every couple of weeks. It's, you know, not set, exactly, it's probably two or three weeks. And it's just some women who get together and just talk. And sometimes it's just casual talk, like book club level talk. And sometimes it's super deep. Then sometimes it's spiritual, sometimes it's scientific, and it's really great, but it's very small and it's just the valley, and it's not posted anywhere, and no one knows about it. It's not like [00:56:55] putting transcripts out for ... You know, it's not out there, it's just in, and like I said, just the cardboard signs, it's just all small and hidden away, kind of, and I really, it feels really safe, it feels really nice, it feels really authentic. It feels good to me. But, just over the past week or so, I have been like, I want to get out. I want to take a class. I want to [00:57:25] do something. But then I second-guess myself cause one of the things when I was in the midst of stuff this year, I kept wanting to sign up for a class or do this or do that and Dylan's like, “You know, you do have this tendency that whenever you're avoiding dealing with something, you want to take a class.” (laughs) You know, and ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Oh, okay, that makes sense. So now I'm in this space where I'm feeling this urge. Like I don't really know exactly what I want to do, but I want to get out of here. I want to have some [00:57:55] some regular contact with the outside world in some way. And I'm like, oh, does this mean I'm, you know, coming up against my emotions about my dad and haven't dealt with them yet and I'm trying to avoid that? So, yeah, I am feeling it. Yes. I think it's going to happen. I'm not exactly sure when or how it's going to happen. Earlier you had mentioned when you said you were gonna interview me and some people said to say hi and whatnot. It [00:58:25] make my heart really happy and also a little sad and very emotional. Many feelings were happening and it was like well, maybe I could be back on Facebook, and maybe I could just post about my life like I used to, and maybe that's okay. And I hadn't really been this close to thinking that in a couple of years. So.  And as far as like work, I mean I have still worked. Even though I said I [00:58:55] had the year off, I have written two books and designed a deck. So, it's not like I haven't been doing stuff to put out there, but I haven't been super publicity-oriented. I haven't been teaching. I've had invitations to workshops and to teach classes, which is more public, more connected with the world, and I keep turning them down. I still think I'm not interested in that. I think I did that a lot because it was expected. It was a natural part of this [00:59:25] work that you and I do, and I think I can be good at it. But I'm not sure if I love it. Yeah, so I'm still struggling about, you know, do I want to keep doing that or speaking at conferences or whatever. You know, especially these ones where it's like you have 50 minutes. Because I feel like a lot of the things I'm thinking about now .... They're not like, here's a simple technique that you can use. It's more like, here's a book [00:59:55] on what I thought about this one thing. You know, I just ...  So, yeah, but I would love to take an art class. I think that's what I would like. I think that's one thing my art is missing, is because I do love the process of it and that's more important than the outcome, but there's still something fulfilling about increasing your skill and being able to skillfully make what you're envisioning, you [01:00:25] know, so I would like that, and I think with that if I had some, you know, peers who are struggling as well as a teacher who's helping guide, that would probably be really good. So ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Of course, the nearest place to take art classes around here is an hour and a half away, but that's what happens when you live here in the mountains.  ANDREW: Right.  BARBARA: So.  ANDREW: I wonder if there are ... I wonder, are there are other artists in the community that you could hang out and have conversations with and so on, [01:00:55] you know? As somebody who went to art school, I'm always ... I'm cynical about art and art lessons and art school and formal training and all of those things because it basically, you know, in my experience, and my experience is very particular, but it basically just ruined all of that for me for a very long time, you know? So, but it depends on who you're working with and why, right? So.  BARBARA: Yeah. [01:01:31] Well, and this wouldn't be like an art school or even a college art course, it's just workshops held at the local art store. You know. I don't know how that is, cause I've never taken, you know, an art school class. So I don't know. Yeah. That or, or, the other thing I'd been excited about when we moved here was the idea of pursuing interfaith ministry. I haven't ... I thought I'd be a year into those studies already, back in the days when I thought everything was going to be fine. And I haven't done anything [01:02:01] with it and I'm still thinking about that. I haven't really ... The only work ritual designing I've done this year was had to do with Carol and Noel, because they ... when Noel's end was getting really close, they were like, well, you know, most marriage ceremonies say, have the words “until death do us part,” and the marriage ceremony itself is a ritual. And yet when one of the partners dies, there's [01:02:31] no ritual, you know, to wrap it up because if it's till death do you part, then what then? What, you know? And how do we untie this bond that we've made or do we, and to what extent or whatever? So, you know, we talked about that for a while and you know, kind of came to grips with what they wanted to do with each other. And then, of course, the challenge, because Noel by this time was not always with us mentally, you know, so keeping it [01:03:01] short and simple, you know, just a little ceremony for them to both release each other and to reaffirm their eternal love, in whatever way is appropriate, in the next life, perhaps, because they believe in reincarnation, you know, so you tie up all their beliefs into this ritual and knowing that was really satisfying and fulfilling, you know, just like other ceremonies I have done, so that's still there too.   ANDREW: [01:03:31] Yeah. At some point in the next little bit, Hanlon and I are going to go back to the place where we, where we performed our marriage ceremony, because we basically married ourselves, right? And we're going to ... and we're going to release the relationship, right? You know, and we're going to ... You know, we have these relatively simple silver rings. We're going to break them and then we're going to take this over and we'll have them melted down into stuff for the kids. So we'll [01:04:01] make a pendant for each of the kids, and then they can have that, but it won't be the ring anymore, you know. And you know, we have some other things that are sort of remnants of the original ceremony and stuff like that, which we're going to, you know, release in one way or another at the place where we did the ceremony as a way of just basically being like, you know, all right, you know, we signed the papers, we've done whatever, but also, I release everything, like this is just gone now, you know? And I think that that [01:04:31] kind of stuff is really important, you know? And I think that around death, around this, around all of it. It's really important, right? That's why these rituals matter, so.  BARBARA: Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Good for you guys.  ANDREW: But first, it's also going to be winter, so it's out on the island in Toronto. It's gonna be very cold and it's not going to be inviting like when, you know, we got married in the summer and we went for a swim afterwards in the lake and stuff. I don't think any of that's going to be happening, but, yeah not really into hypothermia anyway. [01:05:01]   BARBARA: But, also, it's kind of symbolically significant.  ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, maybe that's a good place to wrap this up for today. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Pursue things that are symbolically significant, people, be human. BARBARA: (laughing) That's right! ANDREW: Be weirdos! Hang out! Have fun! Thanks. Thanks so much for following up. I know, I know that this is a challenging time and I think that, I think [01:05:31] that what I've come to think about social media and about these kinds of things like the podcast and so on is, there's so much cynicism about it all, you know, people are so cynical and hear so many things about how meaningless it is and so on, and yet, personally I have some tremendously deep connections with people that are fostered, born, supported, or whatever out of, you [01:06:01] know, out of these things, and I think that if we're able to show up there consciously, then it can become something quite different. If we, if we do that. Otherwise, yeah, sure, we can share cat memes till the cows come home and they're funny, but you know, I'm not sure how many of them I remember down the road, right? BARBARA: Exactly, exactly! ANDREW: For sure. So, in case you decide to start blogging again, or whatever, where should people come and follow you, Barbara?  BARBARA: Yeah. Okay. My website is still the same, tarotshaman.com. My email is on there, BarbaraMoore07@comcast.net. [01:06:37] Please feel free to write, reach out. I may not be on social media, but I still do like hearing people and connecting, and even, keep your eyes open, you never know. I might come back and join the land of the living, join the the Magnificent weirdness that ... ANDREW: Come down off the mountain, Barbara! Come back to the city. (laughing) BARBARA: Yes. Yes. Yes. Come hang out! We can have market days or something. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Awesome. BARBARA: [01:07:10] Well, thank you so much for having me. I am already looking forward to next year. ANDREW: Perfect! 

Right People, Right Seats, Right Time — Part 2 Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Barbara and Matt take a closer look at some of the human resources roadblocks that business owners may come up against when taking on the task of growing their business. During this episode, we take a look at the importance of not only finding the right people for roles within your business but making sure they are the right fit for the role and bringing them onboard at the right time. Some of the areas covered include:   Understanding which seats you are going to need and when you are going to need them The importance of mapping out your organisational chart and understanding not only where your business is now, but more importantly, where you want to take your business in the future – and planning for this Deciding whether you have the time and resources to train up an existing employee or bring on board someone who already has the skills you're looking for Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group.   This episode is the second part of a 3-episode series. You can listen to the other parts here: Part 1: Do I need a VA, Project Manager or Operations Manager…or all three? Part 3: The Stepping Stone to Hiring an Operations Director with Sarah Noked, OBM In this episode: 01:02 – Right people, right seats, right time 02:14 – Right people 04:24 – Skilled people vs training people 05:58 – Right seats 07:15 – Which seats you need to fill and when 13:00 – Right time 16:13 – It's easy to do and easy NOT to do 20:18 – Wrapping things up Matt:  Hey everyone. Welcome back to another show of the Virtual Success Show. I'm joined today by my co-host, Barbara Turley. Hey, Barb. Barbara:  Hey, Matt! How's it going? Good to do another show with you. Matt:  It certainly is, yeah. It's such a beautiful winter's day here in Sydney today. Barbara:  It is. Matt:  It's clear blue skies and can you believe, 23 degrees in the middle of July, or beginning of July. Barbara:  I have to admit, I love… The Australian blue skies are just to die for. You get blue skies all the time, pretty much all the time here. It's very rare that it's not blue skies. I just love that. Right people, right seats, right time Matt:  Certainly is. And it's a really exciting day to be doing this topic as well, titled ‘Right People, Right Seats, Right Time,' and this is a follow-on show from the last show we did where we talked about VAs or project managers or ops manager, which should you choose? And it was really interesting conversation that Barbara and I were having as we were preparing for these shows, and this topic sort of just popped out for us, because what we've been finding is so many of our respective clients have the mindset that they need to put people in their businesses to help them grow, but they're not taking enough time to number one, choose the right people for what they need done. Secondly, putting them into the right roles or seats in the business, but also then it's about the timing of all this, and that's what we wanted to talk to you today. So, let me get started. Barb, right people. What's your experience as far as right people in your business and some of the challenges you've had over the time? Right people Barbara:  Yeah. So, look, a lot of the things that I share on this podcast I learned myself through the hard way and not having anyone really to sort of advise me on it, but I guess a lot of these things you do learn by experience. So, in terms of the right people, I think… Look, with VAs, I felt it was a bit easier for me, because I was very clear on that boundary of what a VA does and what a VA doesn't do. Barbara: When I tried to… I had some VAs though that were very, very good and I realised I needed, sort of, project management help and I thought, “Well, they can do it. I mean, they're really good.

My Amazing Virtual Assistant Just Resigned …What Do I Do Now? Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, Matt and Barbara discuss the reasons why business owners should never become dependent on any one person in any specific role and the common traps many fall into in this area. This episode focuses on some of the key areas that business owners need to stay on top of to ensure there is minimal impact to their business when that superstar VA leaves.   Some of the areas covered include:  The need for up-to-date and current systematisation and documentation Understanding that you need to slow down, in order to speed up your business It is the responsibility of the business owner to build and create the systems to ensure business success Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. Resources mentioned in this show: The E-Myth by Michael Gerber   In this episode: 00:54 – My VA just resigned… 02:05 – Creating a turn key business 02:56 – You must document tasks 05:05 – Everybody is replaceable, including you 06:28 – Slow down to speed up 10:40 – Key takeaways 12:57 – Wrapping things up   Barbara:  Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Virtual Success Show, where I'm joined by my co-host, Matt Malouf. Hi Matt, how's it going? Matt:  Well Barb, and yourself?   Barbara:  I'm really well, thank you. We've been flat out busy, both you and me in the last few weeks, up-leveling.   Matt:  Absolutely. And braving that it's very chilly here in Sydney today, but …   Barbara:  It is.   Matt:  But we've got a hot topic that we're going to be talking about. My VA just resigned…   Barbara:  Yes, definitely, definitely. One of the questions … I mean, I hear this quite a bit at Virtual Angel Hub, but I also see it online and I've heard it from people I've spoken to, who've had VAs or virtual teams before, what if my … Let's say you have an amazing VA, that just does epic work for you, is a massive asset to your business, and then they tell you that they're resigning for whatever reason, they may be going back to study, or whatever. They've announced you that they're resigning and you go into this total panic mode of, “Oh my god, what am I going to do now?” because this person is such a huge part of my business and knows all the processes and what we do.   And I find this really interesting, because in my business, I often move people around, I promote people. Thankfully nobody's ever really left me, but people often very quickly have to be moved into new roles, which means that I can't have a situation where they're indispensable in the previous role. So Matt, I'm really interested to talk to you about this as a business coach. How can people not fall into this trap of having somebody who is indispensable, I guess, in their business, and then you're left in chaos if they leave? Creating a turn key business Matt:  Yes. It was a really interesting conversation we were having just before the show, but I think that the person that put this best is probably Michael Gerber in The E-Myth, about you've got to create a turn key business. A business that can operate without you.   And I think that anytime in business, where knowledge is held with a person, without documented systems or processes, it's risky. And I know Barb, what I see, a lot of these business owners holding a lot of the IP in their head, and doing things just naturally in the natural course of business. Then they bring a team member on, and what they do is they download their brain into the team member's brain, without getting it all documented. So really what you're doing is transferring the risk, as opposed to de-risking the business. You must document tasks Barbara:  Yes. And you know what I find as well? Sometimes when a client comes to us, and we have a very high success rate as you know,

How Annette Lackovic, Australia's #1 Female Sales Expert Is Building On Her Success With The Help Of Virtual Teams  Want the transcript? Download it here. In this episode, special guest Annette Lackovic, Australia's #1 Female Sales Expert, shares her first-hand experience in working with virtual teams and how they have contributed to the growth of her business. This episode is full of insights and tips from Annette on how to overcome some of the common traps entrepreneurs can fall into when onboarding new virtual team members. Some of the areas she covers are:Why perseverance is key in those first few weeks of having a VA?Why it's important not to shy away from those ‘tough' conversations?Why open and honest communication is pivotal in building a solid working relationship with your virtual teams?How important the connection is that you have with your virtual team and ensuring there is an element of fun in your work day?Understanding your VAs skills and passions and fostering these to help them grow within your business, and ultimately grow your business?Why it is important to take the time to train your virtual team from the outset, to remove any unrealistic expectations you may have of them and their abilities, and vice versa?When's the right time to bring a VA on board part-time vs. full-time?Why you really can't afford NOT to have a VA? Let us know what your key takeout has been from this episode and join the continuing conversation over in the Virtual Success Facebook Group. In this episode:01:24 – Perseverance is key05:33 – Tough conversations06:33 – Open and honest communication09:05 – Let's have some fun10:45 – Helping your VA grow in the role15:30 – Avoiding unrealistic expectations19:10 – Part-time vs. full-time23:28 – You can't afford NOT to have a VA27:00 – Wrapping things up  Barbara: Hey everyone and welcome back to another Virtual Success Show! Matt, how's it going? Matt: Going well and yourself? Barbara: Great, thank you! Another fantastic week as always, you know, learning virtual success with my teams. Matt: It's always an interesting week, isn't it? Barbara: It's a journey! It's a journey. And look, I'm actually really excited about today's show because I have one of my favorite people on the planet on the show. Annette Lackovic, welcome to the show! Annette: Thank you! Favorite people; I love that. Perseverance is key Barbara: You do, you like that a lot especially on social media. Annette, I really wanted to get you on the show because as you and I both know, your virtual assistant was one of the first that we placed at Virtual Angel Hub when I started the business and what I just love, and what I want to share this story with the listeners, was that we got this VA and I was really excited about this particular person because I thought she was perfect for Annette and so she started working with Annette and within, I think it was week 2, maybe week 2 or 3… Annette: I think week 1 or week 2 (*laughs) Barbara: An email comes through from Annette to me and there were probably a couple of expletives in it. There were a couple of words in capital and I think, as I recall, something like ‘she's so not worth the money' things like that. So it basically wasn't going well, it wasn't a good email. Barbara: It wasn't a good email but you weren't having a good experience, let's be honest and this is something a lot of people face in those first few weeks of working with a VA but the good news is that now, you and gorgeous Gemely, absolutely adore each other, work really well together and you've made the relationship really work. So I really wanted to talk to you about, first of all, how you got through those first few weeks, how you went from failure to success, I guess. Maybe to kick things off, just tell us about that first day, you know the first week when you met. Annette: The hardest bit is most entrepreneurs, we need somebody in our business because it grows, and we tend to put them in at the wrong time,