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In this episode of The IC-DISC Show, I delve into the journey of Kripke Enterprises from its humble beginnings to its current status as a leader in the scrap metal and recycling industry. Founded by a husband-and-wife team in 1993, the company has grown significantly with the involvement of their son, Matt. They discuss the strategic moves that helped propel their business forward, including key acquisitions like Mid-South Aluminum and a strong focus on aluminum trading. Matt and Scott highlight the importance of relationship building and trust in the scrap metal industry. They share insights into how their reputation and values, like keeping promises and problem-solving, have been instrumental in their success. The episode delves into the symbiotic relationships they have fostered with aluminum suppliers, emphasizing the value of maintaining strong personal connections in business dealings. We also hear about the transformative leadership styles within Kripke Enterprises. The discussion covers how innovative thinking and diverse perspectives, including contributions from those outside the traditional industry, have reshaped the company's culture. Matt and Scott talk about the balance between a hands-off leadership approach and active collaboration with executives to navigate industry changes. Finally, the episode touches on the future of the recycling industry, highlighting the role of technology and innovation. The Kripke team shares stories of employee growth and empowerment, including unique programs aimed at helping employees become homeowners. They reflect on the potential of a younger workforce and the exciting developments in material sorting and AI within the aluminum sector.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I delve into the inspiring transformation of Kripke Enterprises from a small family venture into a major player in the scrap metal and recycling industry, led by brothers Matt and Scott. I explore the strategic acquisition of Mid-South Aluminum and discuss how building trust and maintaining strong relationships have been key to Kripke's success, emphasizing the unique dynamics of their coil distribution business. We discuss the innovative leadership styles within the company and how they've transformed company culture, with insights into how diverse perspectives, especially from non-traditional industry backgrounds, contribute to their growth. There's a focus on employee empowerment and personal growth stories, such as Eric Phillips' rise from warehouse manager to COO, highlighting Kripke's commitment to fostering leadership and financial education for employees. I cover the positive outcomes from switching to a specialized service provider, which resulted in improved efficiency, response times, and significant tax savings, underscoring the value of expertise in business operations. Advice is shared for younger generations entering the workforce, emphasizing the benefits of starting a career in smaller companies for broader exposure and discussing the impact of technology, especially AI, on the industry. The episode wraps up with a reflection on the excitement surrounding JJ Spahn's US Open victory and the anticipation of future events, providing a light-hearted end to a comprehensive exploration of Kripke Enterprises' journey.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Matthew Kripke (https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-kripke-b225969/) LinkedIn - Scott Chaffee (https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-chaffee-63429bb/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Kripke Enterprises Inc GUEST Matthew KripkeAbout Matthew Scott ChaffeeAbout Scott TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good afternoon, scott and Matt. How are you? Matt: Fantastic. How are you doing? Dave: I am doing great. I get to talk to one of my favorite scrap metal company representatives, so it's always a good day for me. So let's get started. Where are you guys calling in from today? Matt: We are at Crypto Enterprises headquarters in Toledo, Ohio. Dave: Okay, and I believe that's made famous by the Mudhens right. Isn't that Toledo's claim to fame? Matt: That is correct, the Mudhens which Jamie Farr in MASH used to wax poetic about. Dave: Yeah, his character was Slinger, I believe. Matt: Yeah, you're showing all of our age that. That's how we're starting this interview. We're referencing a show from the 1970s and early 80s, agreed, agreed. Dave: Well, hey, matt, why don't you give us some background? What's the history of kripke, what year was it founded, who founded it and kind of how we got to today? Matt: sure, so kripke enterprises was started on january 4th 1993, which that date is important because that was my mom, or is my mom's birthday. Next year, on January 4th, it will be the 30, let's see 33rd anniversary of Kripke Enterprises and at the same time my mom will be turning 80 years old that day. She'll be thrilled that I shouted out her age in the beginning of this podcast. But the company was founded by my mom and dad. They started out with the two of them and one administrative assistant and the goal was to create a non-Ferris brokerage company where my dad could just put food on the table for him and my mom. They had their third kid at the time in college. Two of their kids had already graduated college and really not very grandiose ambitions. It was just going to be a small little trading company to capitalize on what my dad's career had been, which had been in the scrap metal. I know we call it the recycling industry today, but back then we did not. We called it the scrap metal company Sure, but back then we did not. We called it the scrap metal company Sure Industry and that was their goal and plan. I don't think that really in his mind he was ever going to grow it beyond those three people and I joined them in October of 1994. So the company was a year and a half old at the time. I had no intention of ever joining the company but my my dad got very ill and I came in and kind of kept the company going while he was spending 60 days in and out of the hospital and, um, at the end of 60 days we agreed to find a position for me and then he said to me point blank he said I really don't want to grow this company, but if you ever decide you want to grow it, I'll support you. It's just you have to do it. And okay, that was kind of the beginning and it took a while for me to get the confidence to begin to grow the company. But that process started from me being the fourth employee and today we're just under 70 employees and locations in Toledo, Jackson, Tennessee. We have a trading office in Florida and then we have a few people that work remote in different cities around and what's your commodity focus? Our specialty is aluminum, but we do trade in most metals, but still 95% of our volume is aluminum. Maybe even Scott's going to correct me with the numbers, but maybe even 98 percent is aluminum okay, does that sound right, scott? Dave: yeah, actually 99 okay, that sounds, that sounds good, and so you've had quite a bit of growth. Matt: Yeah, I think you know I would attribute a lot of it to just finding good people and then ultimately getting out of the way. You know, as an example, scott, who's in this interview. He came in in 2011 with us and was instrumental in setting up systems so that we could scale our business, and you know, one of the things people take for granted is that you really need to. You really need good systems in place in order to scale. You really need good systems in place in order to scale. You can grow your business a little bit at a time if you're doing it with spreadsheets and duct tape and super glue and you're MacGyvering it together, but you really need a good CFO and you really need a good IT person in today's day and age as well. Scott: Yeah, and to piggyback off of that, I mean the infrastructure is so important, whether it's the IT infrastructure, the bank line of credit, I mean there's a number of different things and once that's in place, I mean it becomes fairly easy. And I would say that you know we've been able to do that several times now. You know we acquired Mid-South Aluminum in 2017. And the single biggest thing that we were able to help out there was the infrastructure, the line of credit, the system, the line of credit, the system. We were able to, you know, bring them onto our system, and you know it took a company and we were able to increase that at quite a multiple so the hopline sales number when we acquired Mid-South in 17 was about what Scott? Call it about 30 million, and we were able to take it after we joined forces. We were able to take it all the way up to like about 150 million. Dave: Wow, in a short period of time. That is amazing. And so, Scott, how did you end up here? Did you grow up with a lifelong desire to be in the scrap metal business? Matt: He did Next question. Scott: No, go ahead, Scott. You know I can still remember the day. Yeah, so I've been here since 2011. You know, I tell people all the time it was the best move I've ever made, Including marrying his wife. Well, yeah, I'd worked for three large corporations, three international corporations, and even did a lot of international travel. For, and you know it, I can remember I had a mutual friend with Matt and Larry and I can still to this day remember going out to breakfast with them and at the restaurant here in Toledo, and from there I knew, you know, it was a good feeling. You could just, you could tell, I mean, it's got a, we got a great culture here that comes from there. I knew, you know it was a good feeling. You could just, you could tell, I mean, it's got a, we got a great culture here that comes from the top and makes all the difference in the world. Sure, yeah, Sure. Dave: So tell me more about this Mid-South acquisition. What was it about it? Acquisition, what was it about it? Because you know, so many times you do acquisitions, mergers, and you have these grand plans of all the synergies and growth and everything, and oftentimes it doesn't come to fruition, but it sounds like it did in your case. Matt: What would? Scott: you say, made that transaction so successful. What do you think, scott? Well, I, you know, I, I think I think there was a lot for both of us to benefit from. You know it was. The company was basically run on Excel spreadsheets at the time and you know we we had, we had access to a large line of credit with the banks, and so we were able to, you know, tap into that. We had the infrastructure, we brought them onto our system. I think that was probably the relationship that we'd had, or I should say the relationship that Larry and Matt had with the Salih family, and that went back many, many years. I don't know Matt how far back? 20 years before that yeah. Matt: Yeah, I think that's where it really started. So I think Scott tapped on what made it work from a logistics point of view logistical point of view. But that relationship piece is, you know, when you get into a negotiation, a lot of times they stall out because you start the conversation and people get a little freaked out about well, wait a minute. I'm just not sure that I want to do this because I don't know that I can fully trust you and we both had this longstanding trust of each other. We had been business partners for a long time. What made it really interesting to us was, you know, if you think about Mid-South Aluminum is a coil. It's an asset light coil distributor, which essentially means coil broker. But where I say coil distributor, our niche is we buy mill finish coil, bare coil, and we have relationships with various paint lines paint lines and we will get it painted to specific colors for our customers and then ship them. You know painted coil that would be used mainly in the bnc market, sometimes into producing signs, and sometimes mill finish that might go into like hurricane shutters or florida rooms or things like that. Where it's interesting for us is if you think about where coil is sourced from. Those are the same people that we're selling recyclable aluminum into. So we become customers of theirs, supplying them on the scrap side of the business. And then we're a customer of theirs on the other side of the business, buying coil from them. Oh wow, full circle. And so there's times in the cycle where they treat us really well because they really need us to supply them with scrap. And then there's times in the cycle where getting scraps easy but they really need us over here to help them out to take out quill. So interesting we've, because, you know, we kind of have a little bit more leverage, um, in those relationships. And that's become, you know, now, when we acquire mid-south, we, oh, this is going to be great, we're just going to do a ton of tolling. Well, that doesn't always work and, as a matter of fact, more often than not the tolling piece doesn't work. But when it does, it's great, for you know, two different parties. Now that's great. Dave: And this is one of the reasons that. Now, that's great and this is one of the reasons that you know I picked up. You probably know my very first scrap metal client, Arnie Gashman. You probably know Arnie. Everybody knows Arnie, Right. I think he was in college, at TCU, when his father or grandfather became ill. It may have been his grandfather, Maybe his father wasn't very interested in the business, and then I believe his grandfather passed somewhat suddenly. So Arnie was kind of thrust in to take him the place over at like 22 years old. So yeah, and same thing, he stuck around. But one of the things I love about the industry and I've I tried telling friends who aren't in the industry that I said I've never seen an industry where your reputation matters more than in this industry. And I said and I tell them, I said I believe my clients will buy and sell a million dollars of scrap metal on a phone call, like no formal contracts. I mean there may or may not even be an email, that that that documents it. But I said, can you, can you believe that they do transactions just on a handshake? And it's one of the things that I find just great about the industry. Matt: That is a hundred percent true. You know, I would say you know we have three core values that we run our business and we run our business on them, and everyone in our organization can recite them, and they also know that every decision they make needs to be filtered through these three things okay, one is. One is we do what we say, which you're referring to. You know your reputation. That's how you build your reputation by following through on what you say. Two is we provide solutions. And you know where we try to differentiate ourselves is people are used to at least in the recycling side of the business. They're used to rejections and downgrades. I mean, things go wrong and my dad's big thing was always don't call up a customer and say, hey, you got a rejection down in Kentucky, because that's what everyone else does. He said let's differentiate ourselves. Instead of saying that, let's call them up and say, hey, we have an issue, a little bit different verbiage, but before you call them already have worked out two to potentially three solutions of this, and they'll keep it. Two is we ran the freight to bring it up to our warehouse in Toledo is blank and we'll go through and clean it for you and evaluate the load. And a third option is we found this other place that is willing to buy it. If you go that direction. We're still going to owe this metal on the original contract, but this gives you an opportunity to. You know, get out of this loop. And that's the second one. The third one is also what you're referring to. The third core value Relationships are the backbone of our business. Backbone of our business and I think, while unique when we discuss other industries, that is not unique in the scrap metal industry. You know that we will put relationships ahead of making money, that we will say to you know, our employees, employees hey, if you have an opportunity to cement a relationship, don't worry about whether you make money on that particular deal, it'll come back to us many times playing the long game, playing the long game well. Dave: And I just find life's more fun when you do business with people you know as a customer or supplier. It's just more fun when you do business with people you like and trust. And, just like my wife and I have a saying we don't do transactions, we only do relationships. And that even means because everybody wants like a customers, right, don't complain, pay your bills right Easy to work with. Like a customers right, don't complain, pay your bills right Easy to work with. But my wife and I's theories we aspire to be a customers for all of our vendors because we just find it's more fun when you have a problem and the vendor calls you back right away because you're one of their better customers. And it's just more fun when you're you have great working relationships with your vendors, rather than them feeling like you're going to beat them up on price every time you talk to them. Scott: Right, but that's another relationship, you know, it goes way back and there is a lot. I mean, it can't emphasize enough how important relationships are. You know, this weekend I listened to a couple of the podcasts that you've done and there was somebody else that mentioned the importance of the relationship, and it is. I mean, that is definitely the case in everything that we do, even with the banks, like, for example, you know, we go through periods where, okay, maybe we're carrying a little bit more inventory than what we typically carry, or maybe the price is a lot higher than what it was six months ago. It's great to know that we can pick up that phone and say, okay, we've got a temporary situation, maybe it doesn't quite work with our reporting, what can we do? And we'll start talking, talking through some, some options, and I think, because we have a relationship like that with our banks and and others, I mean it makes it makes business a lot easier to do too. And the other thing you touched on was, uh, you know the integrity that is so important and we do what we, you know. And that goes back to another one of our three core values that Matt mentioned is we do what we say. I can remember when I started years ago, larry always used to say, okay, pay on time, pay on time, pay on time. Because, that is a really important thing. It builds trust, it builds a relationship, adds to the integrity. I mean it is really important and you know it goes a long way. Matt: That's the other thing, that pay your bills on time. You know it's's. Yes, there's many industries where that is an issue. But when I have friends and in other industries and I'm like, oh yeah, we pay our bills on time, they look at me like why is that unique? You know, everyone pays their bills on time. Dave: I'm like not in our industry. Matt: I mean there's, you know there's, unfortunately, uh, you know the road is littered with um, a lot of people who give you the highest price and then make you chase them for, uh, that last dollar and, um, you know, that's one of the. You know, if you say, what is our secret sauce and why do people like to do business with us? One of those things is they never have to track our CFO down and say why am I not getting paid? I mean they, they can set their clock to when the payment comes. Dave: Sure, well, you talked about the relationships. I remember when I ran into you guys in San Diego last month, you know, I had a chance to introduce you to a professional who might be able to help you all in a way, and then I happened to sit down and have breakfast with you guys and you were, you all were kind enough to introduce me to some, some guys who I didn't know and some others who I hadn't talked to in a long time. So, uh, yeah, in fact I leave tomorrow to go to san antonio for the gulf coast regional event. Matt: Yeah, I do my guess is there'll be some people from our. I don't even know anymore who goes to which event, but my guess is we have some people who are going to that event. Dave: I would suspect. So I also suspect it'll be warm, so that's my other suspicion. So, Matt, I believe that a few years ago you kind of changed your role with the company. Is that correct? Matt: That is correct. So, in trying to think of the year that we named Chad the president, was that three years ago, so 22. So, so for a number. So let me backtrack a little bit further. In 2012, I worked out an agreement with my dad that was going to be a 10-year buyout of his and my mom's shares in the company. As part of that we agreed that I think right before then I took over as president of the company and my dad became the CEO of the company and he maintained that CEO role almost all the way through that buyout, even though I would say the last five years I would call him he was much more of like our lovable founder than he was really leading the company strategy anymore. Everyone would love when he would come back from Florida and come in the office and and spend time here. I took over the CEO role maybe in 2019 or 20 and was president CEO for a few years, and then we identified my cousin, chad Kripke, as president, or that we're developing him to become the president of the company. Chad is really really strong at risk management and a lot of the. I mean he was one of our rainmakers probably towards the end of his trading career, our largest rainmaker and would put together these monster deals and really good at building relationships. He, you know, I say to people all the time I felt like I was a really good president of a company for a long time, but Chad is 14 years younger than me and Chad is so much better than I ever was at that age I mean he's he's probably better than I was towards the end of when I was president, but he's still learning. He's still learning many things, but he's done a great job in really leading the day-to-day of the company. I'm still learning what it means to. You know, I've been really, really careful about not wanting to step on Scott's toes as CFO, not wanting to step on Andy Golding's toes as our chief strategy officer, eric Phillips as our COO and wanting to give Chad the freedom to lead. That I probably have erred too much on, you know, kind of a laissez faire attitude of you guys make all the decisions and some of them, actually, almost every single person has come back to me and said, hey, we see what you're trying to do. We'd like you to maybe stay involved a little bit more than you have been and we'd like you to voice your opinion a little bit more forcefully than you have been, and it's a tough mix to figure that out, so I'm still learning what that means to lead more on the longer-term strategy side and less on the day-to-day side. But it's really been fun and then, also in 2022, I told you January of 2023, these guys that I mentioned, they all came in and wrote a check to buy some equity in the company, and they are now my partners in the company, which has been fun as well, and you know it's. Dave: that's been a learning experience too, because my only partner prior to this was my dad, okay, oh, that's that is great, and, and I believe that andy is on track to be, uh you know, the chair of uh rima in a couple years right, or three years next year, next year, next year, yeah, okay yeah, so so next, next year, uh, andy's reign of terror begins and, yes, you, I think that it will be very exciting for the industry because Andy thinks differently. Matt: The reason that he's so valuable to us is, I think, very black and white. Yeah, chad is pretty creative, eric is very black and white, scott is very black and white, andy thinks in all these different technicolor ways, okay, and he is going to bring that to the entire REMA board and it will be uncomfortable. I can guarantee you this. The board will be uncomfortable for a couple of years because he will push the boundaries and will get them to think of hey, yes, I acknowledge we've done it this way forever, or we've done it this way for a long time. I just think this is a great idea over here and I'm going to challenge everyone and there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be very uncomfortable, but the industry is going to be better off for it and I can tell you our company is certainly better off because of how creative he is and the way that his mind works. Dave: Yeah, because what do you think about that? Matt: although Scott's the CFO, and I will tell you that sometimes those creative types are not the best at details. What do you think, scott? Scott: It's funny, andy and I have have like a long running joke that you know he always jokes. He'll say, well, I'm extremely detailed, I'm not, you know, we laughed about it. So, but, yeah, I, you know, I think, I think Andy's going to be great for rima. I think that, uh, you know he's gonna, he's gonna bring a lot to the organization and uh, uh, they'll probably be looking at a lot of things a whole lot differently when, uh, yeah that's into the chair position so, matt, you know, I I believe that that Andy does not have a traditional scrap metal background. Matt: What was it? Dave: about him that made you think kind of outside the box and bring in somebody from outside the industry. Matt: Well, in 2004, my dad and I so 2001, we hired our first trader who was not family and that was Marvin Finkelstein in Florida, and Marvin is our senior vice president of domestic sales and trading and Marvin's been with us since 2001. And Marvin's been with us since 2001. 2004, we had a guy hired who was supposed to start like essentially January 1 of 25. And he called us. I think Christmas Eve, called my dad and he said I really appreciate the offer, I really appreciate getting to know you guys even better. I've gotten cold feet and I have this other opportunity and I'm going to take the other opportunity and I think that's the safer way for me to go. And so we knew that we needed to add someone. At the same time, andy was part of a family business that unfortunately ran into some tough times. They were in the auto glass industry and, similar to the way that, like doctor's reimbursement, changes on the whims of the way the insurance companies want to treat different procedures, that industry was having a seismic shift and they were a big enough company. They couldn't move quick enough to get out of the way, and so andy was uh, andy at the time, in september of 2004, had twins, so he then had four kids under four years old and his family business was kind of disintegrating and and I knew andy, we, we had known each other since we were kids and and, um, my dad had known andy probably since close to when he was born and I I pulled my dad aside and I said, hey, this, this thing with this other guy didn't work out. You know, andy is out there looking and he doesn't have any experience in our industry, but this guy is really creative and could be a great sales guy for us. My dad said if you think you can work with him and you don't, and you're not nervous about your friendship getting ruined, then bring him in, let's talk to him. And by February of 2005, we had an agreement worked out. He started and he was was. I mean, he had to learn the metals, he had to learn the industry, but one thing he didn't have to learn was how to be a salesman and how to be creative and okay it. It probably took me maybe three or four years until I started getting comfortable with his crazy ideas. That and they weren't. They weren't crazy, they were crazy to me. But once I got comfortable with, hey, this stuff that he's suggesting it's working. Maybe we should, maybe I should get out of the way and maybe I should get out of the way, and, and you know that success and him being successful encourage us to add Eric Phillips and encourage us to add Chad Kripke. And then we grew to the point that we needed a real CFO and, you know, instead of my dad just coming back from Florida and saying, all right, what do you guys, you know, where are we at, what should I do? And so that, really, you know, starting with Marvin, going to Andy and then adding the others, those were all key moments and, um, a lot of the people we've added did not have, uh, scrap metal or recycling experience prior to joining here, and I think that has actually worked a lot to our advantage to get fresh eyes on things. And instead, instead of someone saying, well, here's the way you do it in your industry, someone coming in and saying, why do you do it this way and can we do this differently? Dave: No, that makes sense. I can appreciate that different perspective that he was able to bring Scott. What do you enjoy the most about your role with Kripke? Scott: Well, I'll tell you what I mean. I think you know I mentioned my background and you know it's just, it is so refreshing to be here compared to, I mean, we're, you know, we got a great culture. I mean we stress that all the time. You know it's so different than you know, what I had previously. I mean we're still, you know, we're still, you know, reasonably small in the grand view of things, so we can change on a dime, you know, we're, we're, we're nimble, we're, you know, and that's the great thing. So we find, we find that if something isn't working, let's, let's do something, try something else. And you know, I I would say between between being able to to quickly change and, you know, I would say, between between being able to to quickly change and, you know, have make a real difference, um, that in just being someplace where the culture is so important, you know and and people feel part of the team. I mean, I, I, you know. I would say that that those are probably two of the biggest things that I enjoy, you know, working here. Dave: So OK, that makes sense. Scott: It goes throughout the entire organization. Dave: So, yeah, I like it. So, Matt, how about you? Same question to you in your current capacity what do you find most enjoyable or satisfying or gratifying in your current role? Matt: I love seeing growth in other people. I love seeing people grab opportunity. Seeing people grab opportunity, and you know I love the stories of someone coming in as a. You know I'll use Eric Phillips as an example. Eric Phillips, in 2008, gets hired to be our warehouse manager. As we decided we were going to move more into. You know, on top of the brokerage, we were going to concentrate also on having a physical operation for reworking and consolidating loads. And he comes in and within probably eight months, my dad pulled me aside and said you know, we really need to bring him up front. He needs to be a trader. He's got everything. He's got all the skills to do that. My dad was really, really good at warehouse manager. You know currently is a COO and a partner in the company, and you know I love seeing that. And then you know we have some other programs that are a little bit unique. We have we want to make people's lives better, not just our customers, but I'm talking about, you know, where Scott references the culture. We put together a program five years ago, I guess, that we put together a new homeowners program and we want to help any of our employees who have never owned a home. We want to help them get a home, and so we put together a six-month financial education course where they do, like these, lunch and learns, and we have a local credit union that comes in and leads these classes, and as long as they go through those courses and as long as they've been with us for one year, then we'll uh, we'll, give them a twenty five hundred dollar uh, at least they have to put up at least twenty five hundred themselves, which, of course, you're gonna have to do that to buy a home, but we'll match up to $2,500 and then we'll give them a hundred dollars a month for three years towards their mortgage. How cool is that? So, you know, keep in mind we're we're pretty small, but we've had five people in the program. We currently have another four that are in classes right now in a series of classes, and of those, I believe that as soon as three of them, as soon as they're done with the course, are going to be ready to buy their first home. So it's, it's exciting and you know, you know, of course, the side benefit of that is it does act a little bit as a golden handcuff. Sure, you know, let's face it, someone's not staying on a job for 100 bucks a month. Yeah, but it does give them something to think about. These guys help me with this and, and if they help me with this, what else are they going to help me with down the road? Dave: Now, that's awesome. So did all five of that first group buy houses then? Matt: We have, we've done. I think this is our fourth different class yeah, so we've had, we haven't had. Sometimes we've had people go through it and say I just want the financial education piece of it because I don't really understand. I hear people talk about credit score, but I don't really understand what it is or how I could affect it. That might be one of them. I hear people talk about what a mortgage is, but what is a mortgage and how does it work? And you know, and then some other people. One of the classes is how do you set up a budget so that you don't, you know, you, you, you don't think getting the house is the finish line. The finish line is making sure you can afford the house. Dave: Yeah, of course, of course. So you have had some people buy houses from the program. Matt: We've had five people. We have five people that we have put in new houses. Dave: Yes, that's awesome. I mean heck, that's almost 10 of your workforce yeah, that's, uh, that's a little under that. Matt: Yeah, a little you know, I would hope you're an account you. You do our icy disc. Your numbers have to be your. Your math skills have to be better than that, david. Well, that was a bit of. It's about seven percent. Well, that's where my that's where my marketing angle came in right. Dave: Just it sounded more appealing to say nearly 10 there you go. But if we look at, but if we look at the percentage of your employees who'd never bought a house before. Now we're talking, you know 20, right? Because some of your employees you know already owned a house before you know they came to work here. I think that is awesome. So, scott, I'd like to just digress just a bit. And so you had another service provider for the IC desk before we came along, and I think I you know, we talked to you for several years. I'd known Matt for a long time, and one of the things we talked about was that I thought we could do a better job from service, kind of turnaround time. And then I also said that we bring a more thorough kind of calculation to the table. And I'm just curious I know this is kind of unscripted, but how and this has been a few years how has that been? Did we live up to the expectation? Is there anything that you were disappointed by? Scott: Yeah, no, for sure, I mean we, we, we can't thank you enough, dave, um, if, if I think back, I think we have. We moved our icdiscs over to you. What three years ago I can remember, we met in nashville yeah, something like two years ago, and I think you'd already had our disc for a year at that point. Does that sound right? Dave: Yeah, I think so. Scott: Yeah, so you know we, I know that you and Matt had been in touch. I think I, you know we, I think you and I had been in touch. You know, before we made that move for for some time move for, uh, for some time, we, you know with, with our previous provider, you know, maybe the response times weren't quite what we had been looking for or expecting and okay, you know we had a couple years of that and uh, and then I can remember matt and I started talking and uh, um, I remember I, uh, I, and I remember I sent you a note at some point and then we started the discussions then and you know we made the move and it's worked out really well for us, not only with the response times and, you know, moving quickly through all the work that needs to be done, because you know it always comes up, the disc always comes up around around the tax deadline date of April 15. So you know it a little bit of a time crunch of the turnaround you know with your firm is is great, but the other, the other important thing here is the additional calculations that that you've been able to do the last couple of years. We've it's it, it. It takes a little bit more detail, but you take it to the next step and you're able to find some additional tax savings with those additional steps that you do Over the years going back, yeah, since 2011, our tax savings with the ICDIS has been anywhere from, say, a few thousand dollars up to the $60,000 to $70,000 range. Okay, and it's been interesting since you took it over, dave, we've been. The last two years have been in the $60,000 to $70,000 range for tax savings. Matt: So I do think it's interesting. I referenced that Scott became a partner in the company right around that time, dave. So I think, now that some of his money, his personal money, is at stake, look at what he's doing. He's really trying to, you know, maximize all these relationships to make sure so it worked. Dave: It worked, matt. It worked exactly like you hoped it would Well. Thank you for your kind words. The team will enjoy hearing that. Your kind words. The team will enjoy hearing that. I know when we were first talking, you'd said that the turnaround time with the prior provider was maybe as long as several months, and I told you that our guaranteed turnaround time is one week from the time we get all the data, and I think you were skeptical One week. Matt: Yeah. Dave: I think the most recent year with some of the more detailed stuff. It may have been a little more back and forth, but kind of from the time we get the final numbers we uh until we turn around the disc return because you know it's kind of like paying your bills on time, right. So we manage over 500 ic discs and whether we take a month to do them all or we take a week to do them all, it's still the same amount of work. The only difference is if we take a week, our clients on average get the work done three weeks sooner than if we take a month. Just like when I was in college I had these friends that were always paying their bills five days late and I'm like you know it costs the same amount of money to pay them five days early Actually less, because you know there's no late payment fees and stuff. So yeah, no we and the other provider, I believe, didn't specialize in just the IC desk. When all you do is one thing, you know, you develop some efficiency. So then anyway, I don't want to make this too much about me. Thank you again for your kind words and your feedback. And you know anything ever not to your satisfaction. You'd be sure to let me know. I can't believe how the time is flying by. I've got a couple other questions as we wrap up, guys, and I'll start, I'm going to start with Scott first. That way you can't steal Matt's answer. So if you could go back in time and give advice to like your 25-year-old self, Scott, what advice might you give yourself, knowing what you know now? Scott: yeah, it's, it's for myself personally. Uh, our, our younger daughter is going to be graduating maybe as soon as a year, and she graduated from college with a finance degree, not not. I have an accounting degree a little bit different, uh-huh. Um, my, my advice to her is probably don't start out with a large corporation I would. Actually I would. I've had a discussion with her a couple of times. I think there's can learn a lot more working at a smaller company whatever, whatever kind of company that is you get. You get a lot more exposure to, uh, to different things. I mean if, if I were to say to do one thing differently, I'd probably say that that would be, uh. Dave: My advice is go to work to my my younger, 25 year old self is to maybe don't over uh, don't over in index on large companies because that's their pitch. Right, you'll be exposed to more stuff you can rotate around, but that you might have considered a smaller operation sooner. Is that about? Scott: something, yeah, exactly. Dave: No, great great advice. Scott: Okay. Dave: Mr Kripke, how about you? What advice might you give to your 25 year old self? Matt: So I would say, I would tell my 25 year old self that in 2025, you should bet the farm on JJ Spahn to win the US Open to when the US opens, no one will have seen it coming. You'll make millions of that. Just mortgage the house, do everything, whatever you can throw at it. The real answer would be don't worry so much. I think we all have a tendency when we're young that everything feels like a big deal and everything feels like the end of the world, and things just have a way of working out. It doesn't mean that life is perfect. It doesn't mean that you're not going to have challenges. You know, kripke Enterprises had its share of challenges over the years that we've had to fight through. My wife and I have had our share of times where we had to band together as a team to get our family through difficult times and those aren't easy. But don't worry so much. Things have a way of working out as long as you put your, you know, as long as you put your nose down and go to work, to work through it. Dave: That's great. I think it was Mark Twain that said I'm an old man and I've known a great number of troubles, most of which never came to be Something to that effect. I've always loved that. Well hey, what did I not ask you guys that you wish I had? Matt: um, I would say I thought you did a really, uh, good job as an interviewer. I think maybe, if we want to talk a little bit about the, the future of the industry, yeah, let's do that. The the other thing that I'm, you know, obviously, obviously technology, you know, not just AI, but AI is going to change every industry, including our industry. People are going to find a way to harness it and put it to work and technology is going to change our industries for the better, which is exciting. Scott: Change our industries for the better, which is exciting which is exciting, but yeah, it's exciting but scary. Matt: The way that we're going to be able to. You know, the dream for years, at least on the aluminum front, has been the ability to really dig deep and really be able to sort material to the nth degree, it back to specific alloys, and it feels like we are almost there. We're really. We're probably 90 to 95 percent of the way there and I think that is going to be really awesome for aluminum. Scary, because any change is scary, and but there's always going in. People say well, you know what does that mean? Does that mean that there's going to be the haves and the have nots? People can afford this new technology and people who can't. My guess is that's what they were saying years and years ago about shredders and years before that about whatever the new equipment was that the industry is constantly evolving. It has to evolve to get better from a technology perspective. What I'm very excited about is, over the last I'd say, six, seven years, scott, we've really added some new traders and most of them are younger than you know. We had an older trading team and most of these people are younger, so good, and so they learn things so quickly and they're interesting and they really the future is bright. And because they're so young, I've gotten to know the people that they meet in the industry who are also younger, and I know a lot of times we're guilty, as I was at one point that young, hungry guy. Now I'm the guy with gray in my beard and no hair in my head and um. And a lot of times we are guilty as old people saying the young people, they don't like to do this or they don't do this sure. I will tell you there may be things that they don't do, but there's so much better and so many other things and I think the future is bright for our industry. We've got really good young people who have entered it and are leading it now. Dave: Oh, that is. That is great. Thank you for for adding that. It was actually on my list and I think I just was sidetracked. Scott, how about you? Anything we should have talked about or that you wish I'd asked you about? Scott: Yeah, I mean you know Matt touched on it briefly I mean, I think the whole AI thing is going to make a huge difference. Maybe five years from now, seven years from now. We're not there yet, but but I mean I see that being a huge, a huge change for us in the not so near future. I mean it's you know, some of the stuff that they're working on right now it's going to get us there. But you know, on the financial administrative side, I think that is going to be the biggest change that we're going to see in the future. Dave: And we see it and we all see it every day. And since we drive the same brand of cars, you know I drove, I drove a,400 mile trip with my wife a couple of weeks ago and this was the first time ever that she sat in the passenger seat the whole time. She didn't need to spell me to give me a break and I people don't believe me I drove about four miles of the 2,400 miles and that was probably a dozen times that I intervened for five to 10 seconds, mostly for convenience and politeness. You know I needed to get over three lanes and the exit was a mile away and I just, you know, wanted to just make it happen. But yeah, we've all seen that AI firsthand, haven't? We Sure have Well, excellent, Well, guys, I really appreciate your time and I also really appreciate the trust that you've shown in us and our team, giving us a chance to demonstrate the value, and just really want to let you know how much we value the relationship. So I really appreciate that right back at you. Matt: We value the relationship with you. Thanks for giving us a chance to talk. Dave: Today was fun yeah, that that sounds great. Well, you guys have a great day. In case the listeners haven't figured it out, so yesterday was the US Open, the JJ Spahn victory that Matt was talking about. What an amazing, amazing win that was. That was exciting, that last after the rain delay was. Matt: I mean it wasn't. I'm sure it wasn't fun for any of them, but boy was that fun to watch. Dave: It was. It was at that, well, hey. Well, thank you guys very much, and if I don't see you sooner, I'll see you in St Louis or in Las Vegas next year, all right, Great Thanks. Dave. Special Guests: Matthew Kripke and Scott Chaffee.

Salih Çaktı'nın hazırlayıp sunduğu Startup Dünyası programına İstanbul Topkapı Üniversitesi, İşletme İngilizce Bölümü, Araştırma Görevlisi Safa Tankişi konuk oldu.

Salih Çaktı'nın hazırlayıp sunduğu Startup Dünyası programına İstanbul Topkapı Üniversitesi, İşletme İngilizce Bölümü, Araştırma Görevlisi Safa Tankişi konuk oldu.

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (29 Haziran 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (22 Haziran 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programının yeni bölümü yayınlandı.

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programının yeni bölümü yayınlandı.

Wir rennen immer dem neuesten Hype hinterher, haben 80 Trillionen Würfel, 7 Armeen, 3 Transportsysteme, 4 Spieltische…. und zu wenig Zeit, Platz und Geld sowieso… Das ist alles andere als Minimalistisch, also reden wir heute mal über ein minimalistisches TableTop Hobby… was brauchen wir wirklich und wie könnte man es umsetzen… und vor allem was spricht dagegen?Minimalismus ist ein Lebensstil, der darauf abzielt, das Wesentliche zu erhalten und sich von Überflüssigem zu trennen. Es ist eine bewusste Entscheidung für weniger Konsum, weniger Besitztümer und eine vereinfachte Lebensweise. Der Fokus liegt auf der Qualität des Lebens, der Freiheit von materiellen Bindungen und der Schaffung von mehr Raum und Zeit für das, was wirklich zählt.Dies und vieles mehr erfahrt ihr in dieser FolgeHeute mit : Fabian, Salih und HasiPaintKEYWORDSHoly, Holysquad, Freebooter Miniatures, Freebooters Fate, Star Wars ShatterPoint, Asmodee, Games Workshop, Warhammer 40k, Werkelkeller, Star Wars Legion, Age of Sigmar, Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Warhammer the old World, Minimalismus, Gelände, Community, Spielerkreis, Disziplin, Marie Kondo, Boshuda, Spearhead, Mythic BattlesWir sind der Podcast aus dem (Ruhr)Pott mit interessanten Themen und Gästen rund um das Thema TableTop, Brettspiele, Gesellschaftsspiele, Miniaturen, Geländebau, TableTop News.Weitere Informationen auf ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.tablepott.de⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  oder in unserem Linktree : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/TablePott⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠------- Links -------Webseite ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.tablepott.de ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spenden ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/TablePottcast ⁠⁠⁠Mörtsch ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.getshirts.de/tablepott ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Linktree : ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/TablePott⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠------- Shownotes -------Partner: HOLY ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://de.weareholy.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Ab sofort habt ihr 5€ Rabatt mit dem Rabattcode TABLEPOTT5 oder 10% Rabatt auf eure Bestellung mit den Code TABLEPOTT.Freunde:Feldherr: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.feldherr.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠------- Folgen-Shownotes ------⁠⁠⁠Mythic Battles KickstarterMythic Battles: Pantheon by Monolith Board Games SARL — KickstarterMythic Battles : Ragnarök by Monolith Board Games SARL — KickstarterMythic Battles: Isfet by Monolith Board Games SARL — Kickstarterhttps://utopia.de/ratgeber/minimalismus-methoden-fuer-einsteiger_28954/ https://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/2025/cmon-zombicide-an-asmodee-verkauft/ ------- Disclaimer -------The following music was used for this media project:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/TablePott⁠⁠⁠⁠

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (14 Haziran 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programının yeni bölümü yayınlandı.

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programının yeni bölümü yayınlandı.

Buket Calp'ın hazırlayıp sunduğu İçimizdeki Yenilik programına İnovasyon Stratejisti Salih Keskin konuk oldu.

Buket Calp'ın hazırlayıp sunduğu İçimizdeki Yenilik programına İnovasyon Stratejisti Salih Keskin konuk oldu.

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (01 Haziran 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (25 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (24 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programının yeni bölümü yayınlandı.

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programının yeni bölümü yayınlandı.

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (18 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programına PatiLabs Teknoloji Ar-Ge ve İnovasyon Merkezi Aş. Kurucu / Ceo Dilek Kelleci konuk oldu.

Meral Dal Keskin ve Salih Keskin'in hazırlayıp sunduğu Ya Olsaydı programına PatiLabs Teknoloji Ar-Ge ve İnovasyon Merkezi Aş. Kurucu / Ceo Dilek Kelleci konuk oldu.

Salih reste till Köpenhamn för ett möte med Ivan Olausson Klatil, allmänt känd som General Knas. Under deras djupgående samtal öppnar sig musikartisten om sin andliga resa, sin konvertering till islam, sitt passionerade engagemang för ett fritt Palestina samt flera andra personliga reflektioner. Följande är Salihs exklusiva intervju med General Knas, där artisten delar med sig av sina tankar och erfarenheter.

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (11 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (10 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (10 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (4 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (3 Mayıs 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (27 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (19 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (26 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (20 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (13 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (12 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

In this episode, I go into depth on the prophethood of Salih (as) and how his life was.

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (6 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (05 Nisan 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (30 Mart 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Muslims around the world are observing the Holy Month of Ramadan - the month in which the Holy Quran was revealed. Every morning at 5am EST during this month we gather on this podcast to reflect on the revelation of Allah through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (29 Mart 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (23 Mart 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (22 Mart 2025) by Kafa Radyo

I denna intervju samtalar Salih med Klas Grinell, en idéhistoriker som har skrivit en bok om profeten Muhammed ﷺ. Grinell delar med sig av sina insikter från över 20 års arbete med den muslimska traditionen och diskuterar sin strävan att skapa en balanserad och lättillgänglig bild av Muhammeds ﷺ liv för både muslimska och icke-muslimska läsare.Muhammed av Klas GrinellDet sista Sändebudet av Salih Tufekcioglu

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (16 Mart 2025) by Kafa Radyo

Salih'le Mevzu Bahis (15 Mart 2025) by Kafa Radyo

WARNING: Do not listen to this episode unless you have seen the 2025 Marvel Animation release "Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man" or do not mind hearing key plot points. Spider-Man is a character that has an extensive animation history. Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man is the newest entry in animation of the wall-crawler. When the show was originally announced, it was supposed to be a “prequel” of the Spider-Man character portrayed by Tom Holland in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. However, during production, the decision was made to have this show exist in its own universe. Still, there are many similarities and easter eggs referencing the MCU. Does this add or detract from this animated series? Swara Salih returns to the podcast and is named the Hall of Justice “Spider-Man” insider. Salih is a freelance writer and podcaster who has written for But Why Tho?, io9, Polygon, The New Arab, and The Nerds of Color, and co-hosts The Middle Geeks podcast. In this episode, they discuss the disconnection yet similarities from the MCU. They also discuss the fantastic artwork and voice acting. They discuss various supporting characters and their role in the show.

Niko Kovac is Borussia Dortmund's new head coach. Carney Chukwuemeka, Daniel Svensson, Diant Ramaj, Salih Özcan all arrive at BVB while Rayan Cherki does not.

In this episode of the Sumud Podcast, we are honored to host Tai Salih, also known as Red Ma'at—a Sudanese Pan-African abolitionist, womanist, and social justice educator. Forced to flee Sudan during the second civil war and later settling in Canada as a refugee, Tai has dedicated her life to dismantling oppressive systems, advocating for healing justice, and addressing the deeply rooted structures of colonialism and anti-Black racism. Throughout our discussion, Tai unpacks the following: ➡️ Colonial structures that uphold systemic anti-Black racism ➡️ Western exploitation of Sudan and Africa ➡️ The interconnections between global struggles for justice—from Palestine to Sudan and beyond.  She also shares her personal journey of healing, resistance, and activism, and why self-care is a radical act of revolution in the face of oppression.

In this episode of Season 6 I am chatting with guest expert, Louise Salih all about the village. You will hear us talk about: what the “village” looks like for modern-day mothers the history around the change how this is a barrier to self-care for mothers   Meet Louise Salih, the host of the popular podcast "Mums Work and Chaos." At 36 years old, Louise is not just a seasoned podcaster but also a dedicated mother of three lovely girls, ages 2, 3, and 7. Her journey as a mum has inspired her to create a space where the chaos and beauty of motherhood converge. Louise Salih, originally from London (now living in Essex), brings a wealth of personal experiences and insights to her role as the host of "Mums Work and Chaos." With a background in Marketing, she seamlessly blends her professional expertise with the everyday challenges and triumphs of being a mother. As a mother of three young girls, Louise understands the intricacies of balancing work, family, and personal growth. Her passion for motherhood is evident in every episode, where she fearlessly tackles topics ranging from parenting tips and career advice to self-care and maintaining sanity in the midst of chaos. Louise is an advocate for working mums, and her podcast reflects this commitment. She frequently features inspiring stories of mothers who have successfully juggled career aspirations with the demands of family life. Through "Mums Work and Chaos," Louise encourages her listeners to embrace their unique journeys and empowers them to thrive both in the workplace and at home.   Find out more about Louise ~ Website: https://mumsworkandchaos.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mumsworkandchaos/ Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWe_pMB-8aMYd1RdxwhcHhdk3R6rOQCL   To see more of Emma, the Mums Club, Journals and Coaching Sessions, on demand courses, resources and workshops head to: Join the Rest and Refuel Mums Club Membership ~ https://emmabenyoncoaching.co.uk/rest-and-refuel-mums-club Grab a copy of the Review and Reflect Journal to start your reflection on your 2024 - https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Ms-Emma-Benyon/author/B0DMM7KKTG Facebook - @emmabenyon.coach Instagram - @emmabenyon.coach Website - https://emmabenyoncoaching.co.uk/ Email - emma@emmabenyoncoaching.co.uk Monthly self care circles ~ https://emmabenyoncoaching.co.uk/coaching-with-emma/restandrefuelmonthlycircles   Sign up to the newsletter and get your Wellness Life Check for Busy Mums and review your life right now ~ https://dashboard.mailerlite.com/forms/851037/114640934069601722/share

In this episode of the Blood Brothers Podcast, Dilly Hussain speaks with the the co-founder and editor-in-chief of 5Pillars, Roshan Muhammed Salih. Topics of discussion include: The Arab Spring and the Syrian revolution. Dilly and Roshan's past and current positions on Syria. Dilly's trip to Syria, interviewing Ahmed Alsharaa (al-Julani) and online rumours. HTS, Israel and the future of Syria. Responding to Dan Cohen, Tim Anderson, Craig Murray and Sulaiman Ahmed's slanderous accusations about 5Pillars and Dilly. Roshan's relationship with pro-Axis of Resistance Shia and Press TV. Should 5Pillars cut ties with all anti-imperialist leftists and pro-Axis of Resistance Shia? FOLLOW 5PILLARS ON:  Website: https://5pillarsuk.com YouTube: https://youtube.com/@5Pillars Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/5pillarsuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/5pillarsnews Twitter: https://x.com/5Pillarsuk Telegram: https://t.me/s/news5Pillars TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@5pillarsnews

Last time we spoke about the complicated story of Xinjiang. Xinjiang, though part of China since the Han dynasty, has a distinct cultural and geographic identity aligned more with Central Asia than China's east. Its remote, mountainous landscapes divide its regions and isolate its ethnic groups, which include Uyghurs, Kazakhs, and Hui Muslims. Yang Zengxin, Xinjiang's Republican governor, ruled with shrewd, divisive tactics, maintaining peace by balancing loyalties but alienating many. His rule ended in 1928, when an ambitious subordinate, Fan Yaonan, assassinated him, marking a turning point. Yang attended a banquet hosted by Fan, where disguised soldiers fired on him, mortally wounding him. Fan seized power but was soon defeated and executed by Jin, who succeeded Yang as ruler of Xinjiang. Jin enforced strict policies, favoring Han Chinese officials and worsening the economy. He raised taxes, restricted Muslim customs, and monopolized industries. His annexation of the Kumul Khanate in 1931 incited unrest among the local Uyghurs, setting the stage for rebellion.   #132 The Beginning of the Kumul Rebellion Welcome to the Fall and Rise of China Podcast, I am your dutiful host Craig Watson. But, before we start I want to also remind you this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Perhaps you want to learn more about the history of Asia? Kings and Generals have an assortment of episodes on history of asia and much more  so go give them a look over on Youtube. So please subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry for some more history related content, over on my channel, the Pacific War Channel where I cover the history of China and Japan from the 19th century until the end of the Pacific War. So last we left off, things had reached a boiling point in Kumul. The explosion at Kumul would begin mostly as a result of a religious and cultural slight against the Muslim population both Turkic speaking and Tungan. They became offended and banded together against the Chinese officials. As a result of the new administration and annexation of the Kumul Khanate, a young Han named Chang Mu from Gansu, was appointed tax collector and chief of police over the small village of Xiaopu, lying due north of Kumul. According to the Nanjing official Wu Aichen “this Chang Mu was a 'wastrel' whose conduct soon became a public scandal”. In early 1931, Chang Mu met a pretty Turkic Muslim girl in Xiaopu and tried to force her father, a Uyghur called Salih, to give him her hand in marriage. Now for those unaware shari law specifically prohibits marriage between Muslim women and men of other religions. What followed is described in two differing accounts. The first account has it that on April 4th of 1931, Chang Mu was invited to eat at the girls house, allegedly in honor of the forthcoming wedding. During the dinner, Chang Mu was attacked by Uyghur's and slaughtered alongside 32 members of his personal bodyguard. It was further implied by our friend Wu Aichen, Chang Mu had already seduced the girl and that the ulama, those being islamic scholars who act as a sort of authority under shari law, upon discovering so, took it upon themselves to correct the situation. On the night of the proposed ceremony a mob appeared in the streets of Xiaopu. Chang Mu and his guard detail were already thoroughly drunk and easily overcome by the pissed off Uyghurs. All were killed, including the poor Uyghur girl. The Uyghurs then took 30 rifles from the dead and turned their attention towards the Gansu Chinese who were said to number in about a hundred families in the area. All of them were massacred and “had their heads buried in the soil of their farms”. Following this the Uyghurs marched upon the Chinese outposts at Tuluhu and Laimahe killing their garrisons and tax collectors while acquiring even more weapons. Better armed, the Uyghurs elected to make a move against Kumul. Kumul held an overwhelming Uyghur majority and easily fell into the hands of the rebels with little to no fighting. Most of the Han fled into the fortified Old City barring its gates. The Han caught outside the Old City were massacred brutally. Soon the rebel forces controlled Kumul's Muslim part of the city and the surrounding countryside, but the provincial forces remained secure within the Old city and its key arsenal. It is unclear whether the Xiaopu incident was carefully planned prior or simply just came into being. Regardless it was a spark that ignited a much larger rebellion. According to Mildred Cable and Francesca French, two members of the China inland Mission, who resided in Xiaopu at the time, it was indeed a systematically planned rebellion. “While officials surreptitiously transferred their wealth to a place of safety, the instigators of trouble were equally persistent in their secret preparations for war. Camels and mules were requisitioned to transport weapons, ammunition and stocks of food over little-known tracks, that they might be stored in mountain caves known only to the few. Steady streams ofsmall caravans carrying ammunition to the mountains came from the South Road, from Tunhwang and across the most lonely tracks of the desert connecting Kansu with Barku!. All these converged on the Khan's summer palace grounds in AraHim, and the stronghold of Bardash was stocked with huge supplies of food and firearms”. Yulbars Khan, the former chancellor of Maqsud Shah claimed he was in the Tien Shah escaping heat when the fighting began. Many speculate he had a hand in planning the uprising. Cable and French argued the Tungan population of Kumul also joined the rebellion early on. The insurgents of Kumul were quickly joined by neighboring Kirhiz of the Karlik Tagh who also held grievances against Jin as he had imposed Chinese officials upon them in 1929. According to Wu Aichen the Barkul and Kazakhs in the area also joined the rebellion. Thus Jin had succeeded in alienating the Turkic speaking peoples of northeastern Xinjiang now had a full scale Muslim rising on his hands.  Jin reacted with a strong show of force despite his Commissioner of Education Liu Wenlung and Commissioner for Reconstruction Yen Yushan both arguing for a policy of conciliation. Jin ordered troops to crack down on the rebels without mercy. Meanwhile back in Kumul the rebels were unable to breach the Old City so they fanned out into the countryside hunting Han settlers and soldiers down. According to the British Vice Consul General at Kashgar, R.P Watts, an initial detachment of 300 troops sent by Jin relieved Kumul Old City were ambushed and killed nearly to a man. Its also implied they had lost so easily because many of them were sleeping off the effects of opium. Despite the initial success, the rebels were unable to prevent provincial forces led by Zhu Juiqi, the Taoyin of Aksu from relieving the Old City. By late April the siege was lifted, Zhu Juiqi occupied the Old City and ordered his second in command Xiong Fayu to occupy Kumul's Muslim quarters. The rebels still controlled the countryside and were harassing Zhu's forces whenever they strayed a bit too far from their forts, but overall were not much of a match. Meanwhile Chinese troops under the leadership of Xiong Fayu began a series of reprisal massacres against Muslim civilians in Kumul and the surrounding villages. The Uyghur leaders quickly determined they needed external help in their rebellion against Jin. According to testimony from Yulbars Khan, they sent an appeal to the KMT government in Nanjing. Then in June of 1931 Yulbars was chosen, most likely because he was fluent in Mandarin, to head out secretly to Nanjing to carry the appeal. Along the way, Yulbars went to Suzhou to meet with Ma Chongying, known as the youngest and most extreme of the 5 Ma Tungan warlords. Ma Chongying was a Gansu native. Very little is known about his early years nor about his father, but he shared the same paternal grandfather of the Gansu/Qinghai warlords Ma Puqing and Ma Pufang. He was also distantly related to the Gansu/Ningxia warlords Ma Hongkuei and Ma Hungpin. Altogether the 5 were known as the 5 Ma warlord clique. Ma Congying entered military service in 1924 at the age of 14 when he joined a local Muslim militia. A year later the Guominjun forces of Feng Yuxiang invaded Gansu, but the Tungan warlords of western Gansu remained for the most part untouched. Ma Chongying became an officer for the forces of his uncle Ma Kechong and laid a siege and captured the important city of Huzhou on his own initiative. His troops easily defeated reinforcements sent to relieve the city under the command of Ma Lin. With this great victory, at the age of 16, Ma Chongying earned the reputation of a military genius and the nickname Ga Ssuling or “little commander”. His triumph would be short lived however for his superior Ma Kuchung had not ordered the seizure of Huzhou and dismissed his nephew for insubordination. Thus Ma Chongying took his men to Xining in Qinghai and there began building a private army.  The Guominjun eventually left Gansu after devastating it. In 1927 the northwestern parts of Gansu was hit by a massive earthquake and this combined with Feng Yuxiang's regional commander Liu Yufen using much of its land for opium cultivation led to a mass famine. In the spring of 1928, the northwestern Tungans began a revolt against the Guominjun led by the Muslim General Ma Tingxiang. Ma Chongying tossed his lot into the fighting leading to three successive attacks against the Guominjun at Huzhou. According to Robert Ekvall, an American traveler in the region “The revolt had by this time assumed all the aspects of a holy war. Chanting prayers, forty or fifty thousand fighters went into battle with fanatical zeal ... the young rebel leader Ma Chong-ing [sic] seemed to bear a charmed life and by his reckless courage gained the utmost in obedience and devotion from his ruffian troops. The Chinese were panic-stricken at the desperate courage of the Moslems, but eventually, by machine gun fire and light artillery, proved superior”. Alongside this American diplomats reported that the famine and war in Gansu had reduced many to cannibalism with a possible two million people dying between 1926-1929. One of the many to die was Ma Chongyings father who was executed by Liu Yufen as a reprisal against him for his actions in 1929.  That year Ma Chongying had strengthened his position by defeating several Guominjun forces. He traveled to Nanjing where he enrolled briefly at the military academy there. Rumors had it there he offered his services to the KMT on the understanding that if he could win control over Xinjiang that they recognize him. After departing Nanjing he traveled to Chongwei along the Yellow River where he joined his army before marching across the southern friends of the Ala Shan desert to head into northwestern Gansu. There he seized control over 4 districts; Kanzhou, Suzhou, Anxi and Tunhuang. Thus by the time of the Kumul uprising in April of 1931, Ma Chongying had established himself the Tungan warlord over northwestern Gansu. In June of that year, Yulbars Khan visited him at Suzhou while enroute to Nanjing. After a dinner, Ma Chongying asked Yulbars what was going on with the Kumul rebellion and the state of Kumul. Ma Congying then proceeded to criticize Jin Shujen whom he thought was unfit to govern Xinjiang. Upon hearing this Yulbars disclosed why he was going to Nanjing. Yulbars told him that many in Gansu did not support Jin and that he was appealing to Nanjing to see if Jin could be replaced with a new governor. Ma Chongying sat silently for some time before asking if Yulbar's had any personal contacts in Nanjing, to which he replied he did not. He then advised Yulbars to not go to Nanjing because of three reasons: 1) The Kuomintang had just completed its Northern Expedition and was in need of stability, so it was not in a position to replace its frontier governors, despite any shortcomings they had.2) Even if the Nanking government agreed to remove Chin Shu-jen, implementing the decision would likely take two or three years due to the vast distances involved. 3) Furthermore, Chin's greed would likely make him unwilling to step down, and he might even seek support from a foreign power to secure his position. Under these conditions, Sinkiang could potentially come under foreign control. The points were sound, however Yulbars stated the people had sent him to Nanjing, what should he do if he failed? Ma Congying replied “I have a way ... I can meet the needs of the Uighurs of Ha-mi ... In the name of Muslim brotherhood, I shall take my army into Sinkiang. First I shall alleviate the suffering of the Uighurs of Ha-mi, then I shall drive Chin Shu-jen from the stage by force of arms.” A lot of this is conjecture, as it would seem impossible Ma Chongying spontaneously decided to invade Xinjiang over dinner. Ma Chongying was interested in the Kumul uprising long before the arrival of Yulbars in Suzhou and based on other sources it seems Yulbars was well aware of this prior to his visit. Ma Chongying most likely had decent information on the political ongoings of Xinjiang as two Muslim Turks from Istanbul had traveled to northwestern Gansu from Urumqi in early 1931 and entered Ma Chongying's military HQ. One was Kamal Kaya Efendi who went on to become his chief of staff. Ma Chongying was also gun running to places like Kumul, meaning he would have a lot of intel. Ma Chongyings powerbase in Kanzhou was also temporary. As pointing out by Mildred Cable and Francesca French “based on the assumption of the paralysing effect of frightfulness in action, and as a method of temporary invasion it answered his purpose well, but it never served him as a basis of true conquest, nor did he ever establish rule over one single acre of the land which he invaded. His was the method of the locust. . . and his army was always viewed as a plague. It came, it devoured, and when it had passed over, the patient, constructively minded peasants instantly began to repair the damage done to their fields, and to begetsons to replace those who had been swept away in his train” In 1931 Ma Chongyings private army was not a large one, it was perhaps no more than 1000 men and given the account of Mildred Cable and Francesca French, his army had to roam around like locusts to survive. Ma Chongying was a very ambitious and young warlord who like many in this part of China dreamed of carving out a Muslim empire in central asia. In the spring of 1931, Ma Chongying had only two possible directions to take. One was through China proper where he would most likely face his uncle Ma Pufang, whom at the time he was in this sort of propaganda war with. The other was to go through Xinjiang, where it seemed he could receive aid from other Muslim groups seeking to be rid of Jin Shujen. Ma Chongying assembled a force of 500 Tungan cavalry and swiftly crossed the desert between Anxi and Kumul during the full heat of midsummer, arriving in the oasis on the 28th of June, at around the same time as the French Citroen expedition. The French Citroen expedition got to see an encounter between Ma Chongyings Tungan Cavalry and some Chinese machine gun detachment outside of the village of Yikoshu. The French account indicated the Chinese forces also had some Mongol soldiers with them decisively beating back the Tungan riders. After witnessing this the French headed for Kumul's Old City which they found in a state of chaos. Everyone within the city was busy organizing defenses. The French were taken immediately to the local Chinese commander, Zhu Juichih. As they made their way they could see anxious Muslims peering out of their windows and on telegraph poles were heads, hearts and livers, most likely from captured insurgents. Commander Zhu gave the French permission to continue to Urumqi, stating they could do so at their own risk. Most of the French departed on July 1st, leaving behind 3 members at the Old City who would become eyewitnesses to Ma Chongyings attack.  On July 3rd, Ma Chongying dispatched two messangers to Zhu Juichich baring the following message. “By order of the National Government of China I have been appointed commander-in-chief of all military forces of Kansu and Sinkiang. Having assumed my new occasional pistol shot could be heard as hand-to-hand fighting began on the wall Its self ... Just when the place seemed to be doomed a machine gun, which up to this had been silent ... suddenly came to life. Emplaced in a blockhouse flanking the wall, It opened fire, mowing down the assault, and the glacis was soon cleared except for heaps of corpses”.  Ma Chongyings Tungan cavalry force lacked heavy artillery necessary to breach the Old city walls. Three separate attacks were made on the night of the 3rd, all beaten back. Zhu Juichih, a military veteran had zero intention of surrendering to the so called “little commander” whom he dismissed as a “thieving cub”. Ma Chongying seemed to have little stomach for siege warfare so on the 5th he led a large portion of his Tungan cavalry away from Kumul Old City. By doing so he had left roughly 1000 Uyghur insurgents with a handful of Tungans to continue a siege against the Kumul Old City who had 2000 provincial troops. Zhu Juichih was unaware of Ma Chongyings true purpose so he elected not to sortie fearing a trap. Meanwhile Ma Congying led his riders over the Karlik Tagh to Barkul surprising its defenders. Barkul would end up surrendering without much of a struggle. The commander at Barkul named Hedin handed over 2000 rifles and opened the Barkul arsenal to Ma Chongying. Ma Chongying left a hundred man garrison to capture the town as he turned south. According to Wu Aichen, the sudden small victories of the young commander emboldened other groups to join his cause such as the Kazakhs and Tungans north of Karlik Tagh. By mid-July Muslim insurgents were effectively controlling the entire territory of the Old Kumul Khanate, from Xingxingxia to Iwanquan. Groups of invading Tungans from Gansu formed an alliance with the Muslims of Xinjiang, notably from Xingxingxia and Barkul to hold the siege of Kumul Old City. Ma Chongying seemed to also hold the full support of indigenous Muslims of the area whether it be Hazakh, Kirghiz, Uyghur or Xinjiang Tungans.  Jin Shujen's received word of the young commander leading a force of Tungan cavalry attacking various places. It seemed his next target was to be Qiqiaoqing. Jin appointed his chief secretary, Lu Xiaozu to be his commander in chief of the provincial forces; Tu Qikuo and Sheng Shihtsai were to be his joint chiefs of staff. Lu Xiaozu was a younger brother to Jin Shujen, a civilian with little to no military experience and was the bitter rival of the current commissioner for military affairs at Urumqi, Jin Shuxin. Lu Xiaozu mustered a force roughly 1000 strong of men almost all lacking any military training or experience. They were immediately tossed over to Qiqiaoqing with orders to halt the Tungan advance pending further reinforcements. Shortly after their arrival, the troops were met by a surprise night attack and killed nearly to a man. Their commander Tu Qikuo committed suicide in disgrace. According to Kamal Kaya Efendi, the Tungans were led personally by Ma CHongying during the daring attack. He had taken his forces into the oasis through little known trails in Karlik Tagh and Bogdo Ula after his capture of Barkul.  Following this victory, Ma Chongying returned to Kumul Old City to see if the siege was providing any results. This was a rather bizarre decision as Jin Shujens capital of Urumqi was basically open for the taking, but perhaps the young commander had overestimated his enemy. When Ma Congying arrived at Kumul Old City, the besiegers' morale improved greatly. Between July 3rd to October 16th over 43 attacks had been levied against the Chinese garrison. The Tungans dug trenches and built barricades trying to storm the walls. Meanwhile within the old city walls the besieged people were forced to eat their camels, horses and mules to survive. By October 1st the defenders were reduced to a ration of 750 grammes of kaoliang floor per day and were expected to run out by the end of the month. Likewise ammunition was running low, prompting Zhu Juichih to resort to more archaic weapons such as fire arrows and Dao swords that the men had found preserved in the arsenal going back to the time of Zuo Zungtang's campaign in the 19th century. One of the French expeditionaries reported the only thing being sold in the bazaars was opium. One could not even obtain oil as it was boiled and hurled over the walls at the attackers. The Tungans attempted numerous times to breach the walls using mines, but they lacked sufficient powder to create large enough explosions. On one occasion a breach was made in the walls, but the defenders were quickly able to block the hole with wool before the attackers could get through. Afterwards a ditch was dug around the walls and flooded so the Tungan trenches would be unable to continue mining. Siege warfare is neat isn't it? Horrible to be sure, but so much ingenuity. By Mid-October the defenders were very desperate. According to the French expeditionaries inside after 108 days of siege, the defenders sortied out of the town on October 16th and tried to reach Urumqi. “What sustained the men was opium. They could not have held out without it, and so long as it lasted and no strenuous effort was demanded of them, they could get along on practically no food. At night the opium lamps of the sentries could be seen sparkling like little stars the length of the ramparts. The whole garrison was in fact intoxicated. It was fantastic!” It is quite probable the defenders chose to make a break for it because they were a majority Han Chinese and greatly feared their fate if the Tungans got in. If you know Islamic history, well you know. Ma Chongying had refused any terms other than unconditional surrender and given the feelings of Kumuls Muslim insurgents, it seemed highly unlikely any prisoners would be taken. Regardless, the siege had delayed the Tungans for a long time, allowing Jin Shujen to hastily organize provincial forces at Urumqi. After his first military campaign had failed horrendously, Jin now orderedTsetsen Puntsag Gegeen, the “living Buddha” of Xinjiang of the Torgut Mongols to lead his famous Torgut Cavalry regiment against the Tungans at Kumul. The Turgot troops were by far the best available at the time to Jin, and the most capable to go one on one with Tungan cavalry. However Tsetsen Puntsag Gegeen was one of the many Torguts who had grievances with Jin over his policy of enforcing Han Chinese officials upon his people to take positions of leadership. Moreover a plot had recently been discovered that one of his subordinates had been paid off to assassinate him. Tsetsen Puntsag Gegeen suspected Jin Shujen to be the culprit to the plot and when the said assassins fled to Urumqi, Jin refused to hand them over for justice, all but confirmed his suspicions.  Thus Tsetsen Puntsag Gegeen refused to become involved in the war over Kumul and instead took his forces to Kara Shahr as a demonstration of power. Lacking sufficient numbers or reliable Han Chinese troops, Jin turned next to the White Russian community. Lu Xiaozu who proved himself an imbecile at military matters was replaced with Chang Peiyuan, the Military commander of the Ili Region which also happened to be the region where most White Russians resided. Chang Peiyuan went to work rallying White Russian volunteers who more or less refused to fight for the Chinese, until Jin threatened to repatriate them to Stalin's USSR. In late September Chang Peiyuan had a force headed by 250 White Russians under the leadership of Colonel Pappengut with the mission of relieving Kumul Old City. During this time Ma Chongying decided to march upon the capital, drawing most of his Tungan cavalry away from Kumul heading westwards along the Qiqiaoqing road. This took him directly into the path of the advancing White Russians who began skirmishing around the village of Liaotun. At some point Ma Chongying was seriously wounded, shot through both of his legs. Despite this both sides had negligible casualties. Yet as a result of his grievous injury a large portion of Ma Congying's Tungan riders retreated back into northwestern Gansu. Rumor has it, at this time Ma Congying was bought off by Jin Shujen, regardless he had to take a prolonged time to recuperate and was away from the front lines. Once safely across the Gansu-Xinjiang frontier, Ma Chongying handed control of his four districts of Tunhuang, Anxi, Yumen and Suzhou to his uncle Ma Pufang. Meanwhile Chang Peiyuans forces with Pappenguts White Russians in the spearhead were still advancing towards Kumul Old City. They managed to relieve it on November 1st. The victorious Chinese troops sacked Kumul as a reward, that was denied to the White Russian forces. The provincial troops then performed a systematic destruction of large parts of Kumul, levelling entire villages and terrorizing the population. Zhu Juichih had returned to Urumqi, but his Lt Xing Fayu had remained at Kumul and began a series of mass executions. The reprisals were so heinous, all of the Uyghurs who had remained neutral during the ordeal threw their lot in with the rebellion. Refugees began to pour westwards towards Turfan while Uyghur insurgents withdrew to Karlik Tagh, notably to their well stocked mountain fort at Bardash. Those who went to Bardash unleashed a guerilla war against Jin troops in collaboration with Ma Chongyings Tungans who awaited their leader in Xinjiang. A communication network led from Bardash and Anxi for this purpose. While Ma Chongying was licking his wounds he reorganized his forces. I would like to take this time to remind you all that this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Please go subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry after that, give my personal channel a look over at The Pacific War Channel at Youtube, it would mean a lot to me. Thus the Kumul Rebellion had just been unleashed. Those who were oppressed were gradually forming a rebellious coalition against Jin Shujen. Although Ma Chongying had literally been cut down at the legs so to say, he was not down for the count. The Rebellion had only just begun.