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In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Brian Schwam to discuss how Interest Charge Domestic International Sales Corporations (IC-DISCs) can help businesses save on taxes. With over 35 years of experience, Brian shares how IC-DISC has evolved since 1972 and why it remains a valuable tool for U.S. exporters. He explains how businesses, particularly in the aerospace industry's Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) sector, can take advantage of this incentive to improve their financial position. We walk through a hypothetical example to illustrate how an exporting business could benefit from IC-DISC. Brian explains how companies involved in manufacturing, repairing, or trading parts can qualify and why many eligible businesses overlook this opportunity. We also discuss the annual MRO conference in Atlanta, where industry professionals gather to share insights and best practices. This event highlights the ongoing impact of IC-DISC within the aerospace sector and beyond. Despite the clear benefits, many businesses hesitate to implement IC-DISC due to a lack of awareness or expertise. Brian talks about how our firm partners with CPA firms to integrate IC-DISCs into existing tax processes, making it easier for businesses to take advantage of these savings. He also highlights the underutilization of IC-DISC and why more companies should consider it as part of their tax strategy. We wrap up by discussing the upcoming MRO America's Conference in Atlanta, where exporting aviation maintenance companies can connect and learn more about IC-DISC applications. Whether you're new to IC-DISC or looking to refine your approach, this conversation provides useful insights for businesses considering this tax-saving opportunity.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I discuss the intricacies and benefits of Interest Charge Domestic International Sales Corporations (IC-DISC) with tax attorney Brian Schwam, who has over 35 years of experience in the field. We explore the historical context of IC-DISC, including its origins in 1972 and the significant changes it underwent following international scrutiny and U.S. tax reforms, such as the 2003 Bush tax cuts and the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Brian provides insights into how IC-DISC can serve as a valuable tax incentive for U.S. exporters, particularly those in the aerospace industry's Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) sector. Through a detailed hypothetical example, we illustrate how companies can leverage IC-DISC to maximize export profits, highlighting specific benefits for pass-through entities and closely held C corporations. We address common apprehensions businesses face regarding IC-DISC implementation and discuss how collaboration with CPA firms can facilitate a seamless integration into existing tax processes. Despite the clear benefits, IC-DISC remains underutilized, and we emphasize the potential missed opportunities for businesses not taking advantage of this tax-saving strategy. The episode also covers upcoming industry events, such as the annual MRO conference in Atlanta and the ICDISC Alliance Conference, which offer valuable networking and professional growth opportunities.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Brian Schwam (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-schwam-b6026a3/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About WTP Advisors GUEST Brian SchwamAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, brian, welcome to the podcast. Brian: Thanks, dave, good to be here. Dave: So where on planet Earth are you calling in from today? It's hard to tell by looking at your background. Brian: Outer space. I am in the sunny South Florida. Dave: Okay. Brian: Breezy, south Florida, okay. Dave: Now are you a native of Florida. Brian: I am not a native of Florida. I spent 50 years of my life in the upper Midwest in Wisconsin. Okay, I had to move to Sunbelt. Dave: Okay, Now were you educated in the Midwest then too. Brian: I was. I'm a proud alum of the University of Wisconsin, both for an undergraduate degree in accounting and also my JD from the law school Okay. Dave: So you've and I take it and I've known you a while, so I think that's been several decades ago that your career was started. Is that about right? Brian: Several would be a good good approximation. Yes, I've been at this for 38 years. I know it doesn't look like it, right, okay? Dave: And so, and how long have you been involved in ICDISC? Then Most of that time 38 years, oh, 38 years in ICDISC. Then most of that time, 38 years, oh, 38 years in the disc, wow, yeah. So how does that do you know? Do you have any way to quantify that? Like how many you know ICDISC returns you've, you know, signed or reviewed or prepared, or Boy, it's a big number, dave. Brian: It's probably five figures. Okay, probably, so you know, somewhere north of 10,000 for sure. Okay, over that time period. Dave: Well, and that is why I'm glad that you are one of the founding members of the IC Disc Alliance with me that when I had a chance to partner up with you and some of your team when we created the IC Disc Alliance, I was really excited because in my book I pretty much knew all the players in the IC Disc space and once the famous Neil Block retired after 50 years to me you were without peer in the IC Disc space. Brian: So I really enjoyed collaborating with you through the years here in the ICDISC space, so I really enjoyed collaborating with you through the years. Dave: Thank, you for that, Dave. I hope to be able to follow Neil into that 50-year stratosphere. Yeah, that's big shoes to follow. So let's just talk a bit about the ICDISC. What the heck is it? Why does everyone use that silly acronym? Brian: Because what it really stands for is a mouthful. Dave: Okay. Brian: Discharged Domestic International Sales Corporation and that is what the ICDISC stands for, short right ICDISC. And I don't know if we'll get into. I'll get into what the IC stands for and everything. But basically this is an export incentive that's been in the Internal Revenue Code since 1972. Okay, in various forms. Initially it was an export incentive that just about any company could use, that was exporting goods that were manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US. It came under some fire from our trading partners and in 1984, it was transformed into the ICDISC. It started out just as the DISC in 1972 for the Boston International Sales Corporation and it, like I said, came under scrutiny. Our trading partners said hey, you're a, you can't have an exemption from income because you're not. You know you tax things differently in your country. This flies in the face of the other incentives you give your taxpayers. So they changed it into the ICDIS, which made it into, instead of a permanent tax savings, at least on its face, into a temporary savings where, to the extent a taxpayer saved tax and deferred income from tax, they were required to pay an interest charge to the IRS on that deferred tax. Hence the IC. Dave: Okay, okay. Brian: That rate changes every year. It's based on the one-year average TBLO rate as of September 30th annually. And at the same time they instituted something called the Foreign Sales Corporation, which was widely used by thousands of companies, and that came under attack and eventually became the extraterritorial income exclusion which was immediately attacked and eventually, a couple of years later, it just went away. In the meantime, the disk floundered for quite a number of years. In fact, in the year 2000 there were only 787 disks in existence. Dave: Wow, it seems like a shockingly small number. Brian: Well, the tax laws weren't real conducive to benefiting from the disk at that time. Then, in 2003, the Bush tax cuts brought in the concept of qualified dividend income and it took the disk off of life support and really put it on robust territory for pass-through entities, because they could now, to the extent that they could qualify and we'll get into that, to the extent they could qualify and to the extent that they could benefit it provided a 20% rate benefit between ordinary income and qualified dividend income, so it was a significant savings. Now that's been whittled away over time, where it's been reduced here and there. Various tax law changes and probably the largest or the next biggest reduction came in in 2017 with the Trump tax bill, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which reduced the rate on qualified income on non-qualified income. So it reduced the rate on S-corp income partnership income in an individual's tax return to a 29.6% level, and so now the spread between the qualified dividend rate and the ordinary rate just isn't as great as it used to be. It's approaching 6%. So where it used to be 20, then it went to 15, and now it's 6. But it's still a permanent savings for these past three entities and it's not something that they should ignore, because it can save significant taxes, depending upon the level of export activity. Dave: Okay, and now to be clear, depending on a company-specific fact pattern, that spread could be greater. Right For a pass-through. It could be as high as what like? Brian: 13% or so For a pass-through it could be as high as what like, 13% or so For a pass-through business. Dave: It could be as high as 13.2%, okay, but in general we see that it and it could even be somewhere between that, depending on. Brian: Anywhere in between 5.8 and 13.2. Dave: And our experience has been that most companies tend to gravitate more toward the lower end of the savings than the higher end. Brian: Yes. Dave: Yes, okay. Now what about for a C-Corp? Brian: C-Corp is a different animal. Okay, a C-Corp can't use an disc to pay deductible dividends to its owners if it's a closely held C corp. This is not something that a public company can benefit from. But if a closely held business C corp is paying dividends to its shareholders and would like to be able to deduct those payments, rather than not being able to deduct those payments, using an ICDIS can transform the dividend into a deductible dividend. Now, it doesn't save the shareholders any tax, because they're paying tax on the dividend regardless of where it comes from, but it would eliminate the corporate level tax on the C corporation, so that benefit could be as high as 21%. Dave: Okay. Brian: Okay, another manner in which certain C corporations use the disc is to fund bonuses for shareholders and key employees, and then that saves the shareholders 17% tax the difference between a tax on a wage and a tax on a dividend, qualified dividend. So that's a 17% savings for the shareholder. In that case the C-Corp doesn't save any tax. They're getting a deduction either way wages or commission to the disk. And now that I've mentioned the word commission, that's probably a good segue into how does a disk earn income? Yeah, and what is its income? So most discs are what we call commission discs. They earn a commission when a operating business that's related to that disc makes an export sale of qualified export property. So let's dig down into that first. What's qualified export property? Well, that's property that has been manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US. So if I'm manufacturing in Mexico or Canada or China and I'm simply selling what I've made in those other countries, you know the disc is not something that's going to benefit that type of a business. Dave: Okay. Brian: It is there to spur US manufacturing, create US jobs, right in line with the America First proposition that's headlining Washington in 2025. Dave: Okay. Brian: So it should be on safe ground, everything that's going on there. So if a company has property that's been manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US and they sell it for export outside the United States and not to a US possession, then that sale can potentially generate an ICDIS commission that would be paid to the ICDIS. And keep in mind this ICDISC is not an entity that the outside world sees or understands or knows about. It's simply an entity that does business, if you will, internally with the operating company, so customers don't know about it. It's really transparent to the world. It's just there to help US exporters save tax. Dave: Okay, it's just there to help US exporters save tax. Okay, and the logistics of it. Like say a company has just for simple math, let's say they have $10 million of export, of qualified export revenue, and the ICDIS commission that's calculated to say 10% of that. Brian: Okay. Dave: So 10% of that would be a million dollars, and so walk me through kind of the that's correct and it accrues the deduction, assuming it's not a cash basis taxpayer. Brian: It accrues that deduction at the end of the year, the DISC accrues the income at the end of the year and then by statute the DISC does not pay income tax. So now we've gotten a deduction on one side, we have non-taxable income on the other side and then when the disc pays a dividend to its owners, that becomes a qualified dividend and is taxed at a lower rate. Dave: Okay, so then, effectively, that million dollars gets reclassified from being taxed at ordinary dividend rates to qualified dividend rates. Brian: From ordinary income rates to qualified dividend rates. Dave: yes, Yep, thank you for that. And where that shows up for a pass-through is going to be on the individual shareholders, k-1, right. That box up near the top that shows ordinary taxable income would basically go down. Let's say there was one shareholder, that number goes down by a million dollars. And then there's a box further down on the K-1 for qualified dividend income and that's where the number's being shifted to right. Brian: Right. Assuming the disc is owned by the operating company, which most of the time it is in the pass-through business context, then the ordinary income gets reduced on the K-1 and the dividend income will increase on the K-1, not necessarily in the same year, but that will be the result over time. Dave: And then that tax savings then will show up on the individual shareholders. 1040, right, because their ordinary income line is a million dollars less. The qualified dividend income line is a million dollars more, and that's where that arbitrage. Brian: They pay less tax if they're getting a distribution from the company to cover their taxes, which is often the case, the company doesn't have to distribute as much cash, therefore increasing the working capital of the business. Dave: Okay, well, thank you. Thank you for that. Now, what I want to drill down into a little more today is looking at the aerospace industry, specifically what's called the MRO space in aerospace. Do you know what MRO stands for? Brian: I believe, I do, I believe maintenance, repair and overhaul. Dave: That's my understanding as well. Brian: That's a significant area in the aviation space. Dave: yes, Okay, and I believe that there's a big conference in Atlanta in April with like something like 17,000 expected attendees. Brian: Yeah, just a small gathering. Dave: A small gathering. Brian: For sure. Yes, that's my understanding as well. In fact, I'll be there. Dave: Yeah, I believe we'll both be there, yeah we'll both be there A few of our colleagues. Brian: Yeah, so it's a one a year significant gathering of companies that operate in this MRO space, supporting airlines and other aviation companies, and basically MRO is important because it keeps planes able to fly. Yeah, and we actually have a booth there. Dave: Yeah, and we actually have a booth there. 1818 BC and it makes it sound like it's a date from a long time ago. But yeah, we'll be there and this will be our first year in attendance or exhibiting. And this has come from, in recent years, I'd say, a big ramp up in the number of MRO companies who we are helping with their IC disk. Is that right? Brian: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, one of the sponsors of the conference was a company I was doing some work with and I asked them if he thought it would be a good idea for us to attend, and it was a resounding absolutely that he thought that we could meet a lot of companies that could benefit from this ICDISC similar to his company. Dave: Okay. What are the elements in the MRO space or the characteristics of the companies that make them a good fit for the ICDISC, because my understanding is it's probably only one out of a hundred of like all the registered corporations in the US are really a fit for the disc. Brian: Yeah, so it takes a specific fact pattern to really benefit. So the companies in the service side of the business so let's say they're carpet cleaners or something to that nature they're not going to be able to benefit from the disk. But let's say it's a repair center and airlines will ship in parts to the repair center because they've worn out and they need it. They need a replacement part so that they can fly this plane. So what happens is maybe the repair center takes their part and repairs it, but they previously repaired another part that's identical and then to the customer and that plane gets back in the air right away. So in that scenario, even though it's a different part that's going back out versus what was coming in, that type of activity qualifies as long as what they're doing qualifies as manufacturing and that repair is occurring in the US. Dave: Okay. Brian: Then that type of a company could definitely benefit Other companies. I don't want to use this term, but it's kind of like horse trading. Sometimes companies will buy a surplus of parts, knowing that eventually they're going to be used by somebody and they hang on to these parts, or they find them from somebody who says I don't want these parts anymore, I haven't been able to sell them. So they take a flyer, they take a risk and they buy these parts and they hang on to them and maybe they sell them at a significant profit and maybe they don't. But there's that space as well that can benefit from the disc, and there's some misconception out there that some of the companies that are similar to what I just described can't benefit from a disc, and so, for example, if parts are obtained outside the US, they stay outside the US. They stay outside the US and they're repaired, recertified and resold. Those aren't going to qualify for the ICBITS. But sometimes parts are acquired outside the US and they're brought into the US, they're repaired, put it back into inventory in the US and then sold for export, and that activity does qualify for the ICs, and so it's very important to know where this refurbishment or remanufacturing is taking place. Dave: Okay and yeah, and there's a US content piece to it, right, like if they buy a part from China and all they do is they just put a little lubricant on it and throw it in a box. Brian: that may not qualify and then they export it. The test is what's the customer's value when that part comes into the US. So if it's a burned out hot engine part, for example, yeah there's no value or very little value and it comes into the US, its customers value is close to zero. It gets repaired, it's going to easily meet the content test and it's easily going to be considered manufactured in the US. It's rare, I think, that we'll find that somebody will buy a new part from outside the US just to inventory it here for export. Dave: Okay, yeah, because there's that it's a 50% US content test, right which? Is also, I think confusing on the surface if you don't really dive down into the rules, right, I mean, the layperson may find it. Brian: How do you know what's 50% US content? Well, the cost of good, I mean. Think of it the other way. The foreign content can't be more than 50%. And the foreign content is the cost, the customs value when it was imported. So if I'm selling something for $100, I imported it for as much as $49.99. That's going to qualify as long as I did something, you know, remanufactured it once it got to the US and once it got to the plus, more often than not, I think the value of those things coming in because they're used and worn and damaged parts, they're going to have a low customs valuation where there'll be no problem meeting that content. Dave: Okay, I can see that. Well, I find and my listeners tell me they really like kind of case studies, little mini of case studies, little mini, you know, client case studies On an anonymous basis. Do you have an example or two of some of the types of companies we've worked with, just to give people a flavor of them and, again, you know, being anonymous to you know? What company it is, but just a sense of like the sense of the size of the company, what the benefit might have been. Brian: The size is sort of across the board, right. So some of them are someone on the smaller side. They might have export sales between $5 and $10 million, and then some of them might have export sales of $100 million. It all depends on the size of their business and the benefits are kind of all over the map. Because we don't just do a simple calculation of the benefits. And the reason we don't is because in this industry what we find is there's a lot of margin variability in the companies that are exporting, and then a transaction-by-transaction analysis of the disk commission is what makes the most sense. That allows us to benefit from the margin variability, allows them to benefit from a higher disk commission and obviously then they're going to save more tax. And in some cases the commission grows by 10x by using the T by T. Sometimes it's two or three x, sometimes it's. You know, I've seen you know where it would have been zero because there was an overall loss in the company, but we were able to get a significant discommission with a T by T approach. So it's hard to pinpoint an exact number, but generally speaking it's 15 to 20, you know the commission ends up being 15 to 20% of sales. And if you look at the statutes, one of the statutes says oh, the commission can be 4% of sales, and another implies that it could be anywhere from 4% to 10%, but we generally see in this industry at least 15% on average. It's significantly higher. Dave: Yeah, and I'd like to drill down into that because I tell, and based on my understanding, we may manage more IC disks than any other organization of the country. I mean we I think our number is somewhere north of 500 companies now that we're helping out, and when I'm having these conversations, you know. So I'm, as you know, I'm more focused on the sales side. You know, and you and your team are more focused kind of on the technical aspect of producing these returns, and what I tell people is that our real value isn't being able to produce an IC disk return. Our value is the incremental benefit that the transaction by transaction calculation yields. That the transaction by transaction calculation yields. Because you know just about any any cpa firm you know most of them their software includes the ic disk return. You know, if they just go do a four percent calculation, it's a, you know, reasonably straightforward calculation. But we find that you know they're capturing only a fraction of the total benefit. Brian: That's true, and while I've seen a good number of interesting looking disc returns, I tend to agree that if you follow the directions, anybody can probably prepare a disc return. We do that as well. That's not where we add the most value. Where we add the most value, adding the value comes in unlocking the highest commission possible so that the tax savings are as great as possible. Yeah, and a lot of businesses that are high margin I'm sorry, low margin high volume businesses. When you look at the disc, on its face it looks like oh, there's not much benefit here, we're only making 2% or 3% of sales on our bottom line. So our disc commission would be 2% or 3% of sales. But, like I said, with the transactional approach, if the commission approach is 15%, well now we've taken the company into a tax loss which could potentially save additional taxes for the owners over and above that 5.8%, because now we're offsetting that loss against other income wages, interest, et cetera and being taxed just on the qualified dividend income of the disc. And so you can't just look at the overall margin or overall profitability of the company and project what that, what it's going to look like, Because they vary all over the place. Dave: Based on this transactional approach, yeah, and I would like to talk a bit about. Oftentimes, when I'm talking to a company that's considering a disk, oftentimes they've never even heard of it. Their CPA firm may not have even mentioned the idea. And they'll say, and they'll ask me hey, does this mean my CPA, you know, screwed up by not telling me about it. In my response, you know I try to be generous and I explain it that, look, you know, in our experience only about one out of 100 companies are a candidate. And so let's just say you have a large local CPA firm and they have 100, you know midsize corporate clients. Statistically we find that only one of them, you know, would be a fit for the disk. And your experience may be a little different, you know, feel free to correct me. And so when you think about it from the CPA's perspective, if there's a special part of the tax code and they only have one client that benefits, it's a difficult economic dynamic for the CPA firm to invest in a whole team and expertise to serve one client, right? Isn't that like part of the challenge that the and I know you've worked at a number of large CPA firms Is my understanding correct? That's part of the problem is just their clientele. There aren't enough of them. That makes it worth doing yeah. Brian: Yeah, I think that's a fair characterization. I might phrase it a little bit differently. I mean, there are thousands of CPA firms and they're all excellent generalists. This is not an area where you can be a generalist. Cpa firms often outsource R&D, tax credit work, cost segregation work. This, to me, falls right in that same category. You don't want to dabble in this, and if you're not sure what you're doing, you can get you and your client in trouble. Have good intentions, but if you don't execute it properly, it can be more of a headache than it's worth. And so, like most people, I think people gravitate towards what they know and understand, and things that they don't know and understand can look and sound scary. Dave: Yeah. Brian: So it's like, oh my God, an IC disc. I've never heard of that. I'm not sure I can bring that to my client because I don't really know what I'm doing. Well, I wish I knew somebody I could call to him. He's not a competitor right who could help me through this and help my client through this, and so that's really one of the reasons why we exist, because, as you stated, you don't want it to be a competitor that you call, and so, because we are so hyper focused on what we do and we don't do the things that I'll call the cpa's generalists, that the generalists do, we're an excellent partner because we're not looking to take away anybody's tax return or any of the other type of work that the CPA might be doing for that client. We just want to play in our space. Dave: Yeah, sometimes I'm sorry. Sometimes you know clients or potential clients will say, yeah, but you know our CPA firm does. You know all of our work. It's a one-stop shop thing and I'm afraid having you do the disc return and then doing the corporate return yeah, but our CPA firm does all of our work, it's a one-stop shop thing and I'm afraid having you do the disc return and then doing the corporate return it's just going to be a nightmare for you all to coordinate your efforts. It just sounds like too much trouble. What would your response be to that? Brian: My response is I work with over 500 companies. Generally we do the disk work for those companies. The regular mainstream CPA does everything else. We coordinate our work with that CPA and it's never a problem. We say, look, we're going to need X number of days to turn this around, so please have a draft of the operating company return by a particular date, and then they work towards that date. They give us the return, we get data from the company and we turn the number around so they can finish their tax return and then we go ahead and finish the disc return and I would say 99.9% of the time it works like we're all part of the same thing. Dave: Yeah, because really the CPA they prepare that final draft corporate return. They then pull two numbers from the disk return that goes into the corporate return and then they're done, basically right. Brian: And they're done and they can go ahead and finish up their disk return, I mean their operating company return and their state returns and everything. And then we just have to get the disc return done. And sometimes you know they file their tax return in april and you know the disc returns aren't due till september. So one might say, oh, you could just sit on them until september. But you know, we try to get them done at the same time. Sure sure Everybody can rest easy. But I mean we think of ourselves as a bolt-on resource to that CPA firm while we're working with that and we work with probably 50 to 75 CPA firms around the country in that role- yeah. It works well. I mean, you can talk to any one of them about what it's like to work with us, and I'm sure you'd get a glowing recommendation for how we work with them and for their clients. Dave: Yeah, no, I'm with you. So, as we're nearing the end here, the other thing that people find interesting you'd mentioned in 2003, there were 700 IC disks under 1,000. Yeah, 787. And then, according, if my recollection is correct, the most recent IRS stats that updated that were published, I think, in 2010. And I believe in 2010, there were like 2000 disks. Brian: Yeah, something like 1926. Okay, To be exact, and that number I'm sure has grown dramatically since then. I would guess there's somewhere between eight and 10,000 disks out there now. Okay, yeah. Dave: Yeah, now what's interesting? This is what people find interesting. I believe there's about 50 million business organization, you know business entities in the country, and so let's just assume that's the number, 50 million. Brian: I mean it's tens of millions. Dave: I'm certain of that. For some reason, I think it's 50 million. Does that sound reasonable? Brian: It does so let's think it's 50 million, does that? Dave: sound reasonable. It does. So let's say it's 50 million and on your average, you know we find around one out of a hundred. You know, maybe one out of 200 companies are fit for the disc. So if we run through the math, you know one percent of 50 million, I believe, is 500, 000. You know approximate companies that we think would benefit from a disc. Yet most recent stats, there's only 2000, you know, and maybe it's 4,000, 6,000, you know. Even, let's say it's 10,000 that exists now. So if you divide 10,000 by 500,000, what is that? Like 2%, I think, of the projected eligible company actually have a disc yeah, and people can't. They always are surprised by that and I usually tell them it might. And tell me if your numbers are consistent. I say about 100. One out of 100 benefit or could benefit. The ones who could benefit 90 percent of them have never heard of the disc, maybe 95%, and the 5% of the 1% who have heard of it, even once they hear about it, they usually haven't implemented it. Brian: Right. Then there's a percent that have implemented it. They're not getting out of it what they can. Dave: Right right. Brian: So it's so. There's a lot of missed opportunities by taxpayers and everyone's always trying to save some taxes. It helps fun, you know. It might help hire another employee might help, you know, if the savings are moderate and it's 50, 6070, 1000 of tax savings that still could pay for an employee to come work at the company. Why do? Dave: you think that utilization is so low? I mean because it'd be shocking if only 2% of the companies who did research and development took advantage of the RMD tax credit. Brian: I think it's just not well known. I mean it's very esoteric, it's been in the tax code for ages and ages and it just doesn't you. You know, there were so many years where it just wasn't relevant when you think that it's not something people think about. And then if you know, if you're a small exporter and you're exporting a half a million dollars a year a million dollars a year unfortunately it probably doesn't benefit you to have a disc and so maybe someone will look at it whether that size and they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't benefit you to have a disk and so maybe someone will look at it whether that size and they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't work. And then they grow and they forget that it might work once they've grown. So once a company hits about three million of export sales really should look at it again, because that's where it starts to have economic relevance that's where it starts to have economic relevance. Dave: Do you think some of it could be that? I mean, in general, public companies don't use disks, right? Brian: They just simply don't. Dave: Okay, and so I've found that oftentimes small to mid-sized privately held companies receive a lot of their sophisticated business knowledge from their Fortune 500 suppliers or clients. You know they'll hear from them about something and you know, like the payroll protection program during COVID, you know I suspect some of those might have heard about that from you know some of their large customers. Maybe that's not a good example, but you know that could be another reason. Right, there's just a dearth of knowledge that the CPAs aren't focused on it because the economics don't make sense. The large sophisticated public suppliers and clients don't use it, so they don't hear about it from them. Right, it's not really in the news, it's just. It just kind of flies below the radar screen, doesn't it? Brian: It definitely does, and that's certainly a reason why it's not as utilized as it probably could be. Dave: Yeah, and it seems like you know most of our, you know virtually all of our clients come as a referral from either an existing client or an advisor who we've worked with other clients you know, like a CPA or attorney or banker. So yeah, it's just a yeah, even though you know the podcast is called the Icy Disc Show. I don't get the sense that I'm ever going to. You know, reach Joe Rogan's audience size. It just seems to kind of fly below the radar screen. Brian: Yeah, and the potential audience is probably a little smaller than Joe's. Dave: Probably Well. So the last thing, the other thing people tell me they're surprised about the first year of the disk return. When they set up a disk is to get everything done. And we tell them the disk return's ready and they say, super good, and e-file it for me, like the CPA does the corporate and personal returns. And what is our response when they tell us to go e-file it for them? Brian: The response is unfortunately, the IRS doesn't provide for e-filing of disk returns and we'll need to send you a paper return. You're going to need to sign it and file it with the IRS and the unfortunate thing there is gosh, I don't know what percent of the time, but it's a growing percentage of the time the IRS loses the return Right and then sends a notice saying, hey, we never filed or whatever. And some of these disk returns are quite large. The fact that they because when you do the transaction by transaction analysis, there's a lot of paper that gets produced and filed and it's shocking to me that the IRS would lose those what they do. Dave: So it's interesting what they do. So it's interesting. I like to say that not only does the ICDISC fly under the radar screen of most everything, it even, in some ways, it's almost like it flies under the radar screen of the IRS itself. Brian: Yeah, and they put some things in place with regard to the ICDISC in 1984 and have never changed it. For example, if you're in the situation where you have to pay interest on deferred tax, which often occurs. First of all, a lot of times taxpayers don't realize it and they don't do it. Secondly, if they do it. It's so antiquated that the instructions to the form where you calculate the interest it says please staple a check to this form and mail it in. I mean, who does that in 2020, right? Nobody. People, businesses prefer to do things electronically to avoid checks being stolen, fraudulent activity, so on and so forth. But here the IRS is saying staple a check to this form and mail it to Kansas City, missouri. Dave: Yeah, and I guess it kind of makes sense that you know if there's only a few thousand of these disks in existence. In the same way, you can't expect the CPA firms to make it a heavy focus, I suppose even the IRS. You know there's a hundred other tax incentives or a thousand other tax incentives that are more highly utilized that you know they maybe are spending their time on. Brian: Yeah, as I like to say, the people at the IRS that understood the disc were working there in the 70s and 80s, OK, and they're long retired. Yeah, and they're long retired. There's really not a lot of bodies at the IRS that understand the DISC and certainly when you're doing a transaction by transaction study and calculating the commission on each individual transaction, there's nobody there that understands that. Dave: Nobody Well, and it's kind of the same thing outside the IRS, right? Nobody Well, and it's kind of the same thing outside the IRS, right? I mean I have this joke that nobody makes partner at a big four firm being the IC disk expert. Oh, that's true, so it even especially nowadays. Yeah, and so it seems like like the average age of IC disks experts is about the same as the average age of the average Fortran computer language programmer. It just seems like you know new people are not coming into the disk and there's just a dearth of knowledge all around. Brian: Right, right. And I myself learned COBOL, which is a choice between Fortran and COBOL, when I was in business school, both equally non-usable. Dave: Is it part of that? Because since the disk came on in 1972, it seems like since 1973, people have been talking about the IC disk going away. So is that maybe part of it? People think, well, why should I learn something if it's going away? Brian: Maybe part of it. People think, well, why should I learn something if it's going away? There's always been a fear that it's either going to go away or that there's a technical correction coming that the disk dividend is not a qualified dividend. But the bottom line is politically, I just don't see that happening. Dave: It stands for too many things that are positive for the US Job creation export sales for too many things that are positive for the US Job creation, export sales, us companies being more competitive in the global market. Brian: So it doesn't really lend itself to be repealed. What can be repealed are some of the tax rates. Some of the tax rates can change and that can change the benefits of the disc. The concept of the disc itself and what it stands for really is very consistent with our country. Dave: Yeah, wow, I can't believe how the time has flown by, brian. Is there anything else that you want to mention about the IC disc or the MRO industry? Brian: No, I can't think of anything specifically other than I'm looking forward to being there and meeting many of the attendees and other exhibitors that are there and spending some time with you and our colleagues in Atlanta. Dave: Yeah, it will be fun. So it's the ICDISC Alliance. If you want to look us up on the website for the conference or stop by 1818BC. We also have a LinkedIn page for the ICDISC Alliance, and so I'd love to meet with any of you who are going to be at the conference. Awesome, well, thank you very much for your time, Brian. This has been really useful. Brian: You're welcome. You're very welcome. Special Guest: Brian Schwam.

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Tim Loney about his transition from airline industry professional to IT services entrepreneur. He shares his path from working at Continental Airlines through major mergers to establishing Solutions Information Systems, explaining how his experience with severance packages motivated his shift into entrepreneurship. We discuss the importance of business continuity planning, particularly for companies in hurricane-prone areas. Tim tells me about a Houston client whose facilities experienced severe flooding, highlighting how proper data recovery systems made a crucial difference in their ability to resume operations. Managing sensitive data is a key topic in our conversation, as Tim's company works with high-net-worth families, family office sectors, as well as companies in a variety of industries. He explains how word-of-mouth referrals have helped build trust with these clients who require careful handling of confidential information. The conversation turns to Tim's approach to business acquisition, where he focuses on purchasing IT firms from retiring owners. He describes his method of maintaining and growing these businesses post-purchase while sharing insights about how remote management tools have transformed IT services over the past 35 years.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Tim's career evolution from working in the airline industry with Continental Airlines and American Express to establishing his own IT services firm, Solutions Information Systems, in Houston, Texas. Tim shared insights on how his managed IT services company has established a national presence by utilizing robust remote management tools and enterprise-class processes. We explored the importance of business continuity and rapid data recovery, highlighted by a story of a Houston-based company that faced severe flooding and required effective disaster recovery solutions. Tim's firm specializes in managing sensitive data for high-income families in construction and family office sectors, emphasizing the importance of trust and credibility built through word-of-mouth referrals. We discussed Tim's strategy for acquiring small businesses from retiring owners, focusing on enhancing the value of these businesses post-acquisition to ensure continued growth. Tim reflected on his entrepreneurial journey from modest beginnings, emphasizing the significance of diversifying income sources and the evolving importance of data protection in the digital age. The episode concluded with an exploration of the evolution of office communication over the last 35 years, showcasing the technological advancements that have redefined the IT industry.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Tim Loney (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sis-tloney/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Solutions Informations Systems GUEST Tim LoneyAbout Tim TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, good afternoon, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. Tim: Hi, Dave, good to see you. Dave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Tim: I'm in Houston, Texas, just north of Houston, in the Tomball area. Dave: Okay. Tim: Up in our corporate headquarters for the company. Dave: Okay, and now are you a native Houstonian. Tim: I am not. I'm not a native Houstonian. I should be probably classified as a native Houstonian because I've been here for about 35 years or more. Dave: Okay. Tim: But my background is I migrated from Canada the day before my 21st birthday. Dave: Oh, you did. Tim: Yeah, I became a permanent resident here in the United States. And what caused you to want to do that? The economy was pretty bad in Canada at that time and I was working for a commercial airline that had gone through a severance package and they released me with my severance package and I said you know, maybe I should try another country, not just a job, but maybe another country. Dave: Okay, so when you came to Houston then did you stay in the airline? Tim: business I did. I worked for one of the large international airlines called Continental Airlines at the time, which has since been acquired by United Airlines. Dave: You know, to this day I can still tell a legacy Continental flight crew from a legacy United flight crew. Very different cultures, very different cultures, or, as I say, the Continental folks are nice and the United folks are not so nice. Tim: Correct, yeah, I was there during the heavy competition years between Continental Airlines and United. I was actually there in the process with Continental Airlines during a very large merger and acquisition of multiple carriers. We acquired Frontier, people Express and New York Air and put them all under the umbrella of Continental Airlines. So I was there during those years. Dave: Okay, so were you there in the late 90s. So were you there in the late 90s. Tim: I was there from 1985 to 1990. Dave: Okay, yeah, I was only asking because I'd worked at an executive search firm in the late 90s and we worked with Continental during their like, go forward initiative or move forward initiative. Tim: Yep the go forward plan with Gordon Blithoon. He was Yep. Dave: Yep, that was it. So then you left the airline business. What did you decide to go do then? Tim: So I left the airline business and I went to work for one of the largest credit card companies in the world called American Express. Dave: Okay, I think I've heard of them. Tim: Yep and because I had a lot of automation knowledge of how the airlines work. From an automation standpoint, American Express was interested in me and understanding the automation behind the airlines and travel agency systems and they brought me in to be a systems person for the airlines to help them in kind of standardizing a lot of procedures within American Express. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds like a fun opportunity. Tim: Yeah, very rewarding, very educational. I learned so much during my term at American Express. Dave: Okay, but you decided that at some point you wanted to unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Tim: unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Yeah, you know now that I look back at it. You know I was. I grew up in a family where you were encouraged to go work for a large organization and a big fortune 100 firm, and through your entire life, and leave with a gold Rolex watch and have a great retirement plan. Dave: Yeah. Tim: But as I followed that path, I found myself continuing to get severance packages over and in my experience with the Fortune 100s I received three or four severance packages and those packages kind of educated me on that. It was maybe not the right gig for me and, you know, I was smart enough to be able to exit out of the Fortune 100s and do something on my own, and that's when I decided to start my organization. Dave: Okay, and what's your company called? Tim: So my company is Solutions Information Systems Solutions IS to abbreviate it and we are a managed service provider of IT services across the United States, managing about 175 customers across the US oh wow. Dave: That's interesting. I would have thought you'd have your clients would all be in the Houston area. I guess this newfangled internet thing lets you serve clients remotely. Is that, I guess, how it works? Tim: Yeah, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about what makes us so successful, but the ability to manage and monitor and remediate issues remotely has come a long ways over the years that I've been in IT. Now it's pretty much if you can't do that, why are you in this industry, right? So yeah, and you know it's a lot of like the entire work from home program that the whole world has kind of moved to. We have that ability to do exactly all of that stuff, not only from our corporate headquarters, but remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do that as well. So it requires a massive tool set, and I'll refer probably to our tool set a lot, because that's what makes us successful, right Is the tool set that I've been able to put together and build a toolbox full of tools to be able to manage, secure, maintain these infrastructures that we're responsible for. Dave: Well. Tim: I thought IT service firms were. Dave: I thought that was a commodity service. I thought they're all the same. Tim: Oh no, there's quite a bit of difference in how these managed service providers operate and I'll tell you, I would consider us probably in the top 100 nationally and probably the top three in our region of service providers, and the reason I kind of give us that grade and that's a grade that I've given us is that we've been at this for 25 years. I started this practice 25 years ago. I started this practice 25 years ago and over those 25 years I not only brought in enterprise class processes and procedures from my 10 years at American Express, but I've improved upon those processes and procedures over those 25 years. Dave: And we continue to improve on those processes. Okay. Well, what? Yeah, I'm guessing that you're. The clients tend to stay with you for a pretty long time. Is that like until they sell or go out of business or some significant event occurs? Absolutely. Tim: Yeah, and that and that's the type of client that we want to have in our portfolio, right? This is not a consumable product that you go and buy once and go away this is a partnership with our customers. Dave: It really is. Tim: You have to think about the IT infrastructure of any business out there. It's number one, a foundational piece of the business, and it is an instrumental piece in continuing to do business right. A lot of conversations I have are around data protection and security, and that's a lot of what we do right Is how do we protect the data that the customer has and how do we make sure that it remains secure and that nobody compromises that data or extracts that data or modifies that data that's on their infrastructure. Dave: Okay, and I'm guessing you're not trying to be the low-cost provider. Tim: We are not the low-cost provider. I wouldn't say we're the most expensive organization out there, but we are in the higher side, and the reason that we're the higher side is we bring a huge value to an organization. There is a lot of components within the IT support model that our lower competitors don't provide or don't understand, and those are the weaknesses within an organization that will cost them considerable damage to an organization if they get exposed right. Dave: Yeah. Tim: And then kind of go through those if you want to cover some of that stuff. Like let's just give an example of a business continuity plan right. If a company doesn't have a business continuity plan, that should be something that they should have in place, and they should have worked with their IT service provider or internal IT team to make sure that they've got a business continuity plan. If they don't, when an event happens, it's a total dumpster fire right, because they don't know what to do and they're very disorganized and it takes them an extremely long time to be able to recover, if they recover at all. So that's one example. Another example is compliance. There's a lot of compliance that's out there and that compliance is in place for a reason. Compliance is in there because somehow something got compromised and this is a compliance requirement that you now have to be in compliance with. It may be an access control compliance thing. It might be a reporting compliance to a legal agency. Dave: So talk to me about the first thing you refer to as the disaster recovery plan or the disaster recovery and business continuity. Okay, so my listeners love stories, so could you give me an example, like of one of your clients you know anonymously, that maybe went through a situation or maybe a company who was not a client but after they had an issue they hired. You guys give us a sense of like the elements of a really good you know continuity plan. Tim: Sure. So I'll give you an example. I had a neighbor that was in my neighborhood that you know. We would see each other at the neighborhood community pool. Our kids would play together, you know weren't real close to them. But you know you get into the conversation of having hey, what do you do by? The way, and you know, I told him I ran a managed service provider, an IT service firm, and we manage customer networks and we keep them secure. Dave: And he goes oh, okay, okay, Well, we got a guy. Tim: We got a guy he's good, he's been with me for five years. At that point, and you know, and wow, that's great. Well, if we need anything we'll call you, right, the conversation went away and that was about 15 years later. So the guy had been working for him for 20 years managing his stuff, managing his infrastructure, managing his backups, making sure again going back to data protection and security making sure that everything was safe and secure and we could recover it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up, not him, but his wife calls me up, and his wife, you know, worked in the business for a period of time but it exited out. She called me up. She said by the way, I still have your cell phone number. I'm wondering if you're still doing IT, was their question. Dave: Okay. Tim: And I returned back and I said absolutely, I'm still doing IT. What's going on? She goes well. He was afraid to call you because he's embarrassed and we were in a very bad situation. This is a second generation builder supply company, probably doing annual revenue about $10 to $15 million in annual revenue. Dave: I said OK, what's going on? Tim: And she goes. Well, we've been ransomed and our data has been held for ransom and we don't know what to do. And our IT guy doesn't know what to do and he is really stressed out. And so the next step was is like well, I can jump in and I can help you. Let me know if you need my assistance. But these type of scenarios we've worked with before and we know how to be able to either negotiate with the criminals and negotiate the ransom to a point where you can actually pay it. If that's your only option, that's your worst option. But if we can recover your data from some sort of backup, we can go through the recovery process. Kind of summarize it we spent that particular client was not a client at the time and so they didn't have any of our backup or recovery procedures in place. They didn't have any kind of policy in place. They didn't have retention policies, they didn't have off-site backups. They had a lot of things. They didn't have offsite backups. They had a lot of things that were missing in that internal IT person's procedure. So what happened was is we came in and we immediately got on site and determined that they were using tape backup, and this is like way tape backup had expired like a long time ago. They had tape backup, they had ancient equipment, it was really. They obviously had put no money investment into their IT. Okay, the recovery for that client was about a week and a half and we were able to recover about 90% of their data. So it comes down to what we call RTO or recovery time objective. The recovery time objective is how long will it take us to recover your network based on our backup and recovery procedures? That particular customer we were able to get back up. Like I said, it was an extended period of time that they were out and they weren't able to do stuff. They were writing sales orders on paper and going back to a paper process. So they could continue their business, but we did get them back up and operational. We got them recovered and they became a customer and today we run very successful trials of the recovery system, as well as continue to make sure that their data is protected and secure. Dave: Did they end up paying the ransom they? Did not Because you got them close enough to 100%. Tim: We got them close enough where they had physical paper backup of the information that they were able to put back into the system. Dave: Okay, now help me understand the other end of that spectrum with somebody who was a current client that something like that happened to, and what was the difference as far as how long it took before you had them up and running? Tim: Well, you know, our current clients knock on wood have not experienced that. Dave: Because they've got a tighter IT infrastructure. Tim: Right, we've got the security and controls and again going back to the tool set to detect and have early detection of these type of events before they happen. So we have the security operations center that is constantly monitoring the security of the networks and the access to the networks and they look for anything that's kind of out of order. Dave: When something's out of order. Tim: then we identify it. We either isolate that system or we investigate it further and see is this a normal procedure that should be going or not? A normal procedure and a lot of this stuff is becoming part of AI now. Part of the AI capabilities is to be able to identify those things very early and stop them before they get any further into the network. So prevention is obviously a whole lot better than remediation. Right and that's what companies hire us to do is to prevent anything like that, a catastrophic event, from happening. Dave: Okay. Well, what about something that's more like a hurricane hits and wipes out their building? I assume you've had some kind of like natural disaster kind of thing where you've had to enact a continuity plan. Tim: Yep, yep, yep, absolutely so. Hurricanes here in the Gulf Coast of Texas, with the Gulf Coast of Texas being in a hurricane zone, we've had customers that their facilities have gone underwater. So one particular customer was on the south side of Houston and their facility went about five feet underwater. They, interestingly enough, had the server on a brick, thinking it was high enough. Well, it wasn't quite high enough, it was a foot off the ground, but it needed to be five feet off the ground. So that server went underwater and it was on when it went underwater. So it shorted out a lot of the components on the server, in which case, you know, they were like we don't know what to do In that scenario. We actually brought the hardware to our facility and we found out what component had failed and we replaced that component on the system and we were able to recover that system oh, wow, okay yeah, that's what we always want to do, is we want to try to use local recovery as much as possible just because of bandwidth or um, no, because of the time it takes to get the data transferred over from a replication process right. Gotcha If you're dealing with terabytes of data. You have to transfer that terabytes of data from either our data center facility or a cloud infrastructure, and that can be time consuming. That can be hours, if not days, depending upon the data. Okay, so some great stories. I mean, obviously we've had events happen. It's not uncommon for events to happen, but how we handle those events and how quickly we can recover from them is critical to a business to continue business for our customers and they can get back to business and be doing what they're doing selling things, manufacturing things, distributing things, whatever it is Okay. Dave: And are there any particular industries that you have, like you know, kind of particular expertise in where you know you would say that people in this industry might look out to you for yeah? Tim: There is. We're a very horizontal organization so we do have multiple industries that we play in. So we do play in the construction industry A lot of construction firms are in our portfolio, but also kind of an area where we've proven to have not only expertise in what we do but also the trust factor is in family offices. Dave: Oh, really Okay. Tim: Yeah, either high income families or ultra high income families. Obviously the privacy of those organizations, the privacy of the families, absolutely critical, and then the data that they're working with has high confidentiality. So, you know again, if that information was to leak out of the network or leak out of the system, then it would be a serious issue. So we've dealt with some of the highest wealth families in the world, oh interesting. Yep Obviously can't name them, but some brands that you would know, some organizations that you would know. It's amazing when I look at our portfolio, the amount of business like when I'm driving around town and I see companies around town and I'm like been in that building, worked in that customer, handled that particular customer, things like that. So yeah, you know, it's our high income or ultra high income. Families are probably a good percentage of our business. Okay, because they have multiple entities that we can support, consistent across all of those entities. So it's very standardized the way we do our business and very proceduralized so it makes it easy for them to understand. They get a quarterly report that provides them with the details and data that they know what we did for them previously and then we also forecast with a forecasting budget in the October November timeframe to provide them with a forecast so they can budget for their future IT needs and know what they're going to need replaced in the future. Dave: Okay, so was this just a case? You happened to stumble across, you know one of these family offices and then you know they run in the same circles and we're just got around that you guys were the go-to folks. Tim: I will say it has helped right In the. You know, in that particular market referrals are a huge thing. Our first family office we did stumble across. We didn't know we were working with an entity, one of their businesses, and then we, you know, they introduced us to another piece of their business and then they introduced us to the family office. You know we're having troubles with, you know, my buddy, my other firm over here, and we'd like you to kind of help in that area. So that expanded out quite a bit. And you know, again, there couldn't be. Our organization has to be the most trusted organization as a vendor that any company is going to hire, right? Sure, because you have to think about the access to the data that we have. We have access to absolutely everything. We're the administrator of your network, right? We have access to your email account. We have access to your email account. We have access to your employees' email accounts. We have access to your data, your financial data, your payroll data, your bonus data, all of the data that's out there on the network we have full access to. So you have to trust our team to the utmost in order to keep that information private, and I always approach a customer with. We're here responsible to secure and maintain that data. We're not here to look at what that data is. We don't know what that data is. Okay. Dave: Well, that's interesting here. I thought I figured you picked up that first client when you were on your mega yacht at the Cannes Film Festival. It didn't work that way. Tim: Huh, no it didn't work that way. No, it didn't work that way. I don't have a mega yacht and I wasn't at the festival, so okay, okay, yeah, not that I don't enjoy that stuff. I do have a house over at tpc, sawgrass and the players club and I do enjoy the country club life. You know I probably have the least expensive house in the neighborhood but I do enjoy the life. Dave: So nice, nice, I like it. So what do your clients tell you that makes your firm unique, like folks that have moved from another firm to yours, then they've been with you a while and I imagine you'll have a conversation hey, how's it going from your end? Are we meeting your expectations? I imagine you have conversations like that. What are they? What are? Are there any common themes? When they end up comparing you to the prior provider, they had, or how does that go? Tim: Yeah, there's a couple of scenarios there on why customers come to us and leave their current service provider right. One of the biggest things that I found with a customer that may be using a smaller service provider is they are really good at the tech stuff. They're not good at the business or the accounting side of the business, sure. So there's a delay in billing or an inaccuracy in billing and it's all of a sudden they get a stack of invoices three months later for work that was performed that they have no idea whether it got performed or what, and so there's a huge problem with the office operations of those particular service providers. So there's a pain point there and they're like I'm done, they come to me and they go, I'm done, this guy doesn't bill me. And then he bills me all at once, and then I got to try and back that information back into my financials and it totally screws up my forecast and my monthly reporting. So that's one reason that customers come to us. The other one is they don't get a response or the response is like unpredictable. So when they call in, they may get the guy right away, they may get the person like return their call the next day or three days later, so response time is really huge. I have a service desk here that is operated 24 hours a day, so our first level response is within minutes. So if you call my office, you'll get a response within minutes. If not on the first ring, it'll probably be the second or third ring. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, very rarely does any of our calls sit on hold or back up in the queue, so that's one way that customers come to us. The other way that customers come to us is that we have acquired eight other companies in the past 25 years. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, we completed our last acquisition in 2024. And we've gone out and found other service providers that may be struggling. They may not have the right business acumen to be able to run the business, so they're either marginally making money or they're losing money because they don't have the standard operating procedures that we have in place and the true business acumen to be able to run the service as a company. They've got customers, they're doing the work, they're getting paid, but they're not profitable. So we end up with firms like that that have come in through acquisitions. Dave: So yeah, I can see that and that's probably where your American Express background was helpful. Right Because you've had exposure to, you know, enterprise grade operations billing HR. Right operations billing HR right To where? Because American Express strikes me as just a well-run, well-oiled machine? Tim: Absolutely yeah, and I will say yeah, I will give them credit for that. You know it was a great run over there for 10 years and I learned not only about you know my job role and continuing to build on my experience in my job role, but how a company operates from a branding perspective, in branding your organization and keeping that brand consistent, but also in standard operating procedures and standardized deployment of systems. Right. I always refer back to not only my American Express days but the Southwest Airline days of standardization. If you can standardize the particular piece of your business that you're running, then it makes it so much easier. So we have standard software applications that we put out from a security tool set. We have standard equipment that we sell out to our customers, all on the Dell platform. My team is trained on the Dell hardware. They're trained on the tools that we use. The security tools, the management tools and all of those things integrate together to make a successful business. Dave: And again it goes back to enterprise level policies and procedures and way things that are, you know, repeating things that are successful you know, repeating things that are successful, okay Well, it sounds like like the first two parts of your success just seem mind blowing to me how you thought of this. But answer the phone when clients call and invoice timely Wow, I mean that's, that's quite a that's quite as. I mean I can't believe, to be honest, that you shared that secret sauce with me. I mean, my goodness, I mean that's. If you're not careful, there'll be other companies will start answering the phone and invoicing timely with that, you know inside knowledge. Tim: Yeah, I hope that we can improve the rest of the service providers out there, right. Dave: Sure. Tim: Competition is good. I like competition. It keeps us going. It gives us something to work towards as well. Dave: Yeah, so you talked a bit about some of the acquisitions and it sounds like you're kind of in a place where you're always open to the right acquisition. What are kind of the ideal characteristics of like the ideal acquisition? I'm guessing you're not going to try to acquire like E&Y's consulting group. I'm guessing you're looking for smaller operations than that. Tim: Yeah for sure you know. So an organization, the organizations we have acquired, have been anywhere from a half a million dollars to two million dollars in revenue. Those organizations the owners may be getting older, they may be getting ready to retire and they're not sure what they want to do with their business. What they do know is that they don't want to continue to run it Right and that it's marginally. They're making the same amount of money or less than if they had a corporate job Right. So it's sad to see, because they love what they do right and they want to place their customers in with a firm that has a similar culture, that takes care of their customers and really make sure that they're doing the right thing for their customers. So a firm that might be in a half million dollars to two million dollars in annual revenue, or the firm might be a five employee firm or smaller, and that they're getting to that point where they're kind of tired of running the organization and they'd like to transfer. They've taken care of their customers over the years and they've made relationships with those customers over the years and they like to put them with an organization that will take care of those customers and make it a seamless transition for the customer base sure, and I bet, I bet these sellers would probably be shocked if they were able to come in and look at the finances of their business like two years after you've acquired it. Dave: Right, because I'm guessing? Tim: Historically, yes, I will tell you, in probably at least half of those transactions that we've done in the either 12-month or 24-month payout period, they've made more money in that 12-month or 24-month period than they've made in the last three to four years. Dave: Oh, because that earn out ends up being a function of how much you bill over those 12 to 20. And you dramatically increase the revenues, so they're automatically getting participation in that. Absolutely. If they'd known that they would have sold to you 20 years earlier. They just wanted to work for you had their payout and then just become an employee. Right, they want to come out way ahead. Exactly, yeah. Tim: Yeah, now it's really good to see that. I mean, you know, that's one of the things that my competitors don't do. They try to come in and offer this ridiculous number for a business and then the earn out. They beat them up on the earn out and end up with anything. They end up with an initial payment and then maybe they'll get an earn out, maybe they they'll get an earn out, maybe they won't get an earn out, but they're going to tell them how horrible their organization was and how bad the customer base was and how it's not profitable and you know, it's just not how I do business. Dave: Yeah, and I'm having done. Did you say eight acquisitions? Correct, yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now. That now you have the ability Correct? Yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now that now you have the ability, the same way that I understand you know when Berkshire Hathaway acquires a at that same point. Now You've got enough success stories that you can point to those as another differentiator, right? Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're not at the Berkshire Hathaway point, but we got a couple under our belt and a couple of examples that we can refer back to and have some validation around our acquisition process. Dave: Yeah, because I'm just like, as I'm just playing through some hypothetical numbers, like you know, if a company had, say and you don't have to confirm these, but say a company was doing half a million in revenue, the profit is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, and it wouldn't surprise me if, like, two years later, you know that revenue number doubled and the profitability number like quintupled probably, and or you just you know dramatic increase. Just because you know I mean, quite frankly, you just have a better run business model but they had you're able to plug them in and so that's absolutely our goal. Tim: Yeah, and so your win isn't so much we like to see play out right. Dave: Yeah, and so your win isn't like other folks where you promise the moon and then you figure out all of these ways to not pay them. It sounds like your process is just like hey, because in your mind, being a strategic buyer, that business is worth way more to you. You know two years later, once you've done your magic to it, that business is worth way more and so you're okay paying them on an earn out, on a growing revenue number that maybe they didn't even contribute to, because at the end you know, as a I mean like on the front end you might pay, say you know, one times revenue, let's say just to pull a number out but by the time you get to the end of it, if the business is doubled and the profitability is quadrupled, you really ended up paying only one third or one half revenue. And so all of a sudden, whether you know found a way to squeeze them to where the imputed value you paid was one third annual billings or it was half of annual billings really doesn't matter, because the real value for you is like, year three after the earn out. You've got this great profitable book of business that you know you didn't pay much for in comparison to what it's worth two, three years later in your enterprise. Is that right that's? correct, yep, absolutely but the reason you didn't pay much, though, in in all honesty, was because the business wasn't very valuable. Tim: And it really wasn't right. Dave: Yeah, I mean they had owner value. Tim: Street value had a zero valuation on it right. Dave: Yeah, they had probably owner concentration risk. They may have had customer concentration risk, poor processes systems. You know the type of company that you know. There weren't people beating their door down to buy their because, effectively, you're just buying a job. If you bought that business, all right. How much do you pay for a job? Most people don't want to pay very much for a job. Now, what do you look for in an employee, just like you know the most techie person you can find. Is that really all that matters? Tim: No, it's not necessarily you know the most skilled technical guy out there, right? So one of the strategies that we have and maybe I shouldn't share that because my competitors may hear it, but we are a strong supporter of our veterans, so we have veterans that work in our organization. We're probably a 75 percent veteran organization. Dave: Oh, wow, ok yeah. Tim: Yeah, and we enjoy that. They come to us with technical skills and abilities but we build upon those we really do Right and we develop those particular individuals to be much better at what they do. But having our veterans on our team has been hugely successful from a reliability standpoint, as well as a dedication standpoint and the understanding to be able to follow orders as given, right Okay. So that's how we've been able to do that and our retention rate is extremely high. I would say that our culture is very good. We're very family oriented. We're very you know when work has to get done, work has to get done. But we also realize that the family comes first and there's family things that come in the way that need to be addressed. Right. You can't. Your kid gets sick. You have to go take care of your kid, you can't be at your job, right? Those kinds of things and being able to balance that. That was one of my challenges at American Express. I was a new father in my ninth year at American Express and I realized that, even though it was written in the book and preached on the values of the company, when it came time to actually exercise that it wasn't as flexible as I had hoped I was like you know. This is another reason I kind of need to get out. I need to raise my daughter and I need to, you know, and I plan to have other children. So family values and longevity of employees, it makes a huge difference you have to think about. If you have an IT guy in your organization and they're only there for a year or two years, they've gained a little bit of knowledge about your business and how it operates and what computer systems are, what systems and software you're using in your business. They get intellectual knowledge right that walks out the door when that employee leaves or you release that employee. Dave: Yeah. Tim: With maintaining our staffing. I've got people on my team that have been with us 15 plus years and they have a history of our customers that is like you can't buy that right. Sure, you've got that knowledge of that network, of when it was built, like we've built some of these companies, so we know it from day one and what we've done to different applications and how we've modified them over the years. So just having that knowledge be maintained with your service provider is huge, so, and we can go back and look at you know, oh, here's a ticket from 15 years ago that I worked, that I resolved this issue, wow. Dave: And how do you know? You know, cause it sounds like the company has been growing both organically and through acquisition. How do you know when it's time to hire? Do you wait till? Like people are working a hundred hours a week in complaining and quitting. Tim: Is that? Dave: the point you say oh geez, we probably should get somebody hired and we should probably hire in a hurry. The first person we come across Is that your growth strategy? Tim: for your people? No, definitely not, definitely not. So we have a lot of KPIs in the business that we can measure the performance of our organization, and mainly that's around resource utilization. Okay, so we have a lot of tools in our toolbox that give us an indication of when an employee is overloaded or when they have too much on their plate, so we can shuffle that within the business and be able to see who's got the workload and who doesn't have the workload, be able to move things around within the organization. But then we can also look at our utilization levels and, number one, make sure that we're profitable with those utilization levels but also staff appropriately to those utilization levels and know when it's time right. It's like okay, we acquired a company with five big customers and we didn't get any employees with it. Do we have the bandwidth or do we need to increase our staffing? So we really have a lot of KPIs around measuring that to make sure that we don't stress our existing resources and we balance it out that our people are profitable but they're not overworked. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then how do your new employees come to you? Is it referrals from other employees mostly, or no, we do have. Tim: I sit on the board for one of the technical colleges and I use that technical college as our you know more or less recruiting platform. We find the best of the students. You know the kids that are shining. You know they kids that are shining. You know they're showing up on time for their classes, they're interested in developing their skills and they're really, you know, the top students in the tracks right Okay. Yeah, and then we recruit them out of there. We recruit them in at our first level, our entry level, on our service desk team and we build them up in our organization over a period of time, so lots of opportunity for them to grow once they come into our organization. Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great way to bring new folks on. You can train them the way you want trained with your processes and systems. Tim: And then keep them right. Keep them you can give them a growth path and keep them so that they can be. They can get better at what they do, get a higher compensation, be successful in life. There's nothing makes me happier as an owner than to see an employee grow from where they came in the day they started with us to being successful in life. Buying a home buying a car, having a family, all of those kinds of things right, those are really important for me. They're kind of like energy for me to see a person develop over the course of their career with our organization. Dave: Some of my guests. When I ask them, like what's the most satisfying or gratifying part of the job, it seems to fall into two categories. It's either the satisfaction they get from serving the customer or the satisfaction they get from watching their team grow. It sounds like you're probably more on that watching the team grow and that and then they. I think it was Herb Keller that had the idea of take care of your employees, and your employees will take care of your customers Absolutely. Is that right, that your satisfaction comes more from taking care of the employees, and then the happy customers are just an expected outcome? Tim: Yeah, that is a result, right, absolutely. So you know, when I started started this organization, I started in the spare bedroom of my house. Oh okay, I had two analog phone lines. One was for my phone and the other one was a backup phone line, but it was also used for my dial-up internet to be able to help, oh wow, remote into into customers. Right, and looking back, I walk in now to our operations center and we have a pretty impressive organization and a pretty impressive facility that we own. And walking in now I'm like, holy crap, what the heck did I build? Dave: right that's awesome. That's super satisfying right, super yeah I can imagine well I cannot believe how the time is flying by. I always tell my guests it's like the fastest hour of their life is being on the podcast. Tim: How are we going to fill that hour, Dave? Dave: Yeah, I know. So I've got just two questions just to wrap up. If you had a time machine and could go back and give some advice to like your 25 or 30 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Tim: Ooh, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What do I give myself? I probably would have started my organization sooner. Dave: Bingo. That's the answer that 90% of the people have. Tim: Yeah, I would have started my organization sooner. I needed that enterprise expertise, but I would have started it sooner. Dave: Sure, yeah, it's yeah, because the funny thing when you're an employee and if you follow the career path that your family suggested is actually they think it's a low risk, safe career path. But it's actually a high risk path because you have a customer concentration issue, meaning you have one customer, your employer and, as you learned three or four times that if they decide they don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. They don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. So it's actually less risky to have you know, even if you're just doing like consulting and all yours, just like a contract employee working 10 hours a week for four different companies, doing whatever. I find that that's far less risky, because if one of the companies doesn't need you, then you know you've only lost a quarter of your revenue. Tim: Yeah, I call it a scenario of I get hired multiple times a month. I hope I never get fired, but occasionally I get fired. But it should have an impact. I like it Well. Dave: so here's my last question. So you're a naturalized Houstonian, like I, am Tex-Mex or barbecue. Tim: Ooh, I like both really well. But yeah, tex-mex thing. If I don't have Mexican at least once a week, I'm going through withdrawals okay, so Tex-Mex? Dave: yeah, now, one person answered that question. I borrowed this from somebody else. One person answered it. They told me about a Mexican restaurant that has great brisket and they make like brisket enchiladas and brisket tacos and brisket quesadillas and he said that was like the best of both worlds there. And I thought, boy, that sounds like it. Tim: Yeah, there's nothing better than a brisket taco, for sure. Dave: That is awesome, I make some of those myself. That is great. Well, hey, as we wrap up, is there anything? I did not ask you that you wish I had Tim. Tim: No, I'd like to close by saying I shared with my team today and I'm always trying to come up with something that I share with my team every day and today I came up with solutions as a defense system designed to protect the most critical assets of your business the data. I like to just kind of close with solutions I as a defense system designed to protect your most critical assets your data, think about think about if your business lost access to its data, regardless of the circumstance. If they lost access to the data, what would that do to your organization? That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from happening. Dave: Yeah, Charlie Munger talks about the number one key to recognizing a great business opportunity is finding a company who's riding a wave that's only going to grow and increase over time, Because really all they have to do is just stay on the wave. Well, that certainly has applied to you, right? Because 25 years ago you probably had some companies that said ah our data is not that important. You know, I've got a Rolodex with all my clients' phone number and email, and you know, so the importance of data has only increased during that time, right? Tim: Oh yeah, it's dramatically increased yeah. Dave: Well, it's also. Tim: Everybody trusts that data will be there when they're ready to use it. Dave: Yeah, well, and also the other fact is digitization right 25 years ago, most of their data may not have been digital, it may have been analog or paper or whatever, but now virtually everything is digitized, which makes the data even more important. Tim: I go back 35 years in this industry and when I go back and look at it, I replaced the inner office envelope. Oh yeah, people would type up a memo on a typewriter, put it in an inner office envelope and put whoever was going to and put it in their outbox and the mail guy would come by and pick it up. I replaced that guy. That's true? Dave: Well, that is awesome. Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time. This has really been fun and you've really given me kind of an insight into what makes a really well-run IT services firm operate. So I really appreciate your time. Tim: Yeah, I appreciate your time as well, Dave. Always good to chat with you and good to catch up and appreciate your time today as well. Thanks so much. Dave: All, right, yeah, you too. Special Guest: Tim Loney.

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Susanne Cook, a senior partner at Denton's Cohen and Grigsby, exploring the world of international trade compliance. Based in Pittsburgh, Susanne chairs the firm's International Business Team and provides insights into import regulations and export control classifications. We dive deep into the complexities of U.S.-China trade relations, examining Section 301 tariffs and their impact on small-value imports. She shares practical strategies companies use to navigate these challenges, such as China's establishing factories in Mexico to counter tariff restrictions. The conversation highlights the critical importance of accurate prior disclosures to regulatory agencies. Through a compelling case study, Susanne illustrates how businesses can effectively manage compliance, demonstrating that U.S. agencies can be forgiving when companies approach disclosure with transparency and comprehensiveness. Beyond trade compliance, we touch on personal development. I share insights on work-life balance and the significance of building a capable team. Susanne's expertise provides a unique lens into how professional challenges can be navigated with strategic thinking and thorough preparation.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Susanne Cook, a senior partner at Denton's Cohen and Grigsby, shares her expertise on international trade compliance, focusing on the import side of the practice. The episode discusses the importance of accurate prior disclosures to regulatory agencies and the potential consequences of incomplete disclosures. We explore the challenges and strategies related to U.S.-China trade relations, specifically regarding Section 301 tariffs and the implications for small-value imports. Susanne provides a case study on determining export control classifications, highlighting the role of full disclosure and the forgiving nature of U.S. agencies when proper steps are taken. The conversation covers the growth of Denton's trade practice, emphasizing their specialization in assisting foreign companies entering the U.S. market. We examine China's strategy of building factories in Mexico to circumvent tariffs through USMCA and the role of trade experts in advising businesses. The discussion touches on the characteristics of an ideal client for trade advisory services, including large companies with sophisticated internal traffic groups and growing businesses. We highlight the importance of early compliance to avoid potential pitfalls and the necessity for companies to understand their import-export responsibilities. Susanne and I delve into personal growth and team building, discussing the significance of surrounding oneself with a capable team and achieving work-life balance. The episode offers practical advice on personal and professional development, emphasizing teamwork and strategic client selection.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Susanne Cook (https://www.linkedin.com/in/susanne-cook-722a239/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Dentons GUEST Susanne CookAbout Susanne TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hello, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Susanne Cook, and Susanne is a senior partner and she chairs the Denton's Cohen and Grigsby International Business Team, so her practice is all international trade and one of the fun things we got into was on the import side, which I know little about. So, although our firm has an export focus, it was really interesting hearing about the import side, because many people assume that if we have exporting capabilities and expertise, that we have comparable capabilities on the inside, or the import in which we don't comparable capabilities on the inside, or the input, in which we don't. So this was a wide-ranging interview and Susanne is a really interesting person and she's from the Pittsburgh and in the Pittsburgh office of the firm and I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Good morning, Susanne. How are you today? Susanne: I'm doing well in sunny Pittsburgh. Dave: Oh, that is great. Now are you a native of Pittsburgh. Susanne: No, Pittsburgh is my adopted city. You may detect an accent I am German. Dave: I attended law school in the United. Susanne: States. I attended law school in the United States and Pittsburgh is my adopted city and I am a fan. Dave: Okay, that is great. Well, I know that you chair your firm's international business team. Susanne: What does that tell me about what that entails? Tell me about the international business team at DIMMS. It really consists of two pieces and maybe going into it historically kind of explain the development of that team. Being German, I've always had an interest in international law and I liked Pittsburgh and decided to practice international law from Pittsburgh, heading out of law school, and in those days it was a little bit more unusual than it is today. We lived through COVID and can connect from wherever we are. 10, 20 years ago it was more unusual to practice international law in Pittsburgh, but that's what we decided to do so. We tend the group tends to international clients coming to the United States to do business here and have developed what we call the soft landing program. And that grew the trade practice, the export-import trade practice that, frankly, within the last five years or so has quadrupled in size. We engaged additional attorneys in that field as trade. Dave: Everybody reading the paper can see how we impose additional tariffs, how we impose additional expert control measures and so, responding to that need, that part of our practice has grown incredibly of our practice has grown incredibly Okay, and so it's mostly I guess they would call this inbound business mostly foreign companies trying to do business in the US, or is it split pretty evenly between that and US companies like on the export controls work and such? Susanne: I'm glad you're asking. We do both, but the majority is really inbound. Yes, we do assist companies, do business overseas, but really what that entails is finding somebody in that country who is like the Susanne Cook overseas to do what we do here, and ultimately we just hand it off to a good resource. Now I think that's valuable for a client, but really where we are more engaged is on the inbound side. And then for on the trade side, it's also companies who do business internationally and need US export control advice. Dave: Okay, that's helpful and so help us understand. I love case studies, examples. Could you give us an example? And if you need to anonymize the client's name, of course feel free to do so but maybe give us an example of like a couple engagements that might be representative and maybe kind of lay out sort of the fact pattern and again, you know, anonymize as appropriate. Susanne: Right, of course. Of course, a simple case study would be a client who is engaged in exporting and at one point wonders whether the software or a hard product is export controlled and reaches out to us and we look at the product and assist in classification as to whether this item is controlled or not. If we determine it's not controlled, that's wonderful, the end of the story. The next step may be that it is controlled and at that point we look at okay, point, we look at okay. We look at past exports to see if any of those should have been pursued under a license, and that could be a license through commerce, it could be a license under ITAR, which is military, and ultimately, depending on the circumstances, that may lead to what we call a prior disclosure, where the client approaches through us, the regulatory agency in charge, and discloses the issues in the past. And I have to say that generally US agencies are pretty forgiving. Us agencies are pretty forgiving. If the prior disclosure is done well, the circumstances aren't too egregious. Generally, I have to say, our prior disclosures we've had great success in coming clean and the client then can walk away knowing that this is not in their past and could pop up any moment. Dave: Well, I'm really just, as a us citizen, I'm really pleased to hear that, because it would seem like like that's the system that we would want, that now I'm. I'm presuming, though, the flip side of that if the client does not identify the issue and the government agency somehow identifies it then the consequences are maybe not as favorable to the client. Is that a fair assumption? Susanne: That is, yes, that is the dynamic here and really also I always say there's one thing worse than not doing a prior disclosure and doing a bad prior disclosure At that point doing a prior disclosure means full disclosure, because if a partial disclosure is done and the agencies find out that this was really a very calculated prior disclosure, with keeping in the background some of the items that the client wasn't ready to share, that is actually viewed as an aggravating effect an aggregating, aggravating effect. Dave: So it's all, it's almost so. In the sequence, the worst thing to do is a prior, an incomplete prior disclosure, and then the next verse would be no disclosure and the agency comes calling and, just you know, plead ignorance. So you actually get in. Typically, the client would get in less trouble for just being clueless, if you will, than for strategically disclosing only some stuff. Susanne: Oh, absolutely, that goes to knowledge right. It is negligence, gross negligence, or this now goes to intentional misconduct. And with respect to intentional misconduct, even if the client decides not to do a prior disclosure for whatever reason and there are reasons what we consistently counsel the behavior cannot continue because once it has been determined that something should be corrected, if the client continues doing that now it becomes with knowledge intention. And so, yes, it has to change one way or the other. Okay, yes, yeah way or the other. Okay, yes, yeah, so that is on the export side. We also in the trade, we do the importation side and it's rather similar and again, like the export side, we like to stay ahead of trouble. I always say we can do it this way or this way. And this way is prospectively working with a client, developing a program where violations are likely not to occur, or we can assist after a violation occurred, and we much prefer to be on the front end and I think really the client is served better. Dave: Now, on the import side, where does the trouble lie? Susanne: Is it failing to pay like an import tariff, or and there I can tell you, we used to have tariffs averaging of maybe 0.4 to 0.6 percent. There were a few, maybe two, three percent duties, and companies, and the regulatory agencies as well, did not pay a whole lot of attention to payment of duties. But now we have the Section 305, 20 percent duties that are imposed on pretty much all goods from China. We have other tariffs, similar to the Section 232, imposed on most of steel that we import. So now everybody pays attention, as you can imagine, and so the incentive of trying to find a legal way to not pay those is, you know, much greater than it was a couple of years ago. At the same time, yes, customs pays attention much more than they did five years ago, because we're talking real money now. Dave: Yeah, yeah, it's much more material. So I'm really not familiar with the import tariffs. How do they logistically work? Does the importing company that's subject to the 25% tariff? Are they responsible for like remitting that to like volunteer? You know, I say voluntarily, but but is it their responsibility or is there somehow like a? Is that basically how it works? Susanne: Yes, the system works through customs brokers. Okay, so it's rare that a company will perform their own entry, so they engage a customs broker and the customs broker is like the intermediary in this system. And, yes, all duties are being paid through that system. Okay, all duties are being paid through that system. A significant part of determining what duties are due is what we call the harmonized tariff schedule classification of the product. Believe it or not, it's kind of mind-boggling, but anything, any product in the world has an HTS classification. Dave: Okay. Susanne: So, and it can get tricky, particularly sometimes products evolve. They were not even there when the HTS was developed. But still somehow we interpret it for those products to be classified in this HTS system. Sometimes reasonable people can disagree on classification and there's a ruling system. One can go approach customs and request a ruling. But really it's like anything garbage in, garbage out. If there is an incorrect determination on the HTS classification, only bad things can follow. Dave: Yeah, and I'm guessing the reason that you know that there may be a difference of opinion in the classification is because one product may have a higher import tariff than another, so thus the client seeks to make the case that it should fall under the lower tariff classification. Susanne: Absolutely, absolutely. And even when we submit rulings it's a little bit like you know, even court filings, you kind of make your best case as to why we believe this product falls in the category that we would prefer it to be in. Of course we have to be accurate and correct, but, yes, we stress the factors that would make it more likely for a product to be classified in our desired classification. Dave: Okay, and so, and again the process. So the customs broker is actually the one doing the classification of the product. Susanne: They do. However, they work on very, very small margins. Dave: Right. Susanne: And so in difficult cases, yeah, they will make a suggestion, but ultimately it's always the importer's responsibility. It's kind of like a tax return you engage your CPA, but if something goes wrong, it's the taxpayer, and here it is the importer of record who would be on the hook. So in difficult cases or if there is a whole lot of money involved, we get involved as a law firm in classification as well, and it's you know. The sums of money could be staggering. Dave: Yeah, yeah. And so the product comes in. The customs broker, either proactively or independently, will do a classification of the item, or maybe a preliminary classification, or, if it's not clear, they'll perhaps reach out to the client for guidance. Is that my right? So far, that's right. And then the product comes in. And then how soon does the company have to remit those tariffs? Is it a weekly process? A? Susanne: monthly process, quarterly. It's a simultaneous process. Dave: Simultaneous okay. Susanne: Simultaneous process. Dave: It's a simultaneous process, simultaneous. Okay, simultaneous process, obviously, but I'm guessing if they receive the product, if the product lands at 4 pm on a Tuesday, they don't have to remit the money at 4 or 1 pm on Tuesday. I assume there's some. Susanne: There's some leeway and there is a customs bond in the background. Dave: Okay. Susanne: Backing up the payments so as I increase their imports or they may not even increase them. But there is now all of a sudden a dumping duty applied to the product or a 25% additional tariff because the items are shipped from China. The bond may have to be increased because it doesn't cover the standard amounts anymore. Dave: I see, and the bond is that required by customs? Yes, and every company has to have one, or when they get to a certain size. Susanne: Every company has to have one, or when they get to a certain size, it's through the broker. The broker always yes, it's part of the system. Dave: Okay, yes. Susanne: So every product that gets imported is somehow falls under the umbrella of a particular bond. Unless, it's a one-off like you and I just importing things. We're not under that bond system but in professional companies who import as a business. Yes, a bond would be involved. Dave: So is there a threshold where those tariffs come into play? Like if I buy a hundred dollar item from China and I'm buying it with the intent of selling it in the US and I sell it for $150. I mean, is there a minimum threshold? Dollars $800. Susanne: Okay, yes, and this is actually subject to scrutiny, political scrutiny by now, at this point. To scrutiny, political scrutiny by now, at this point, because these de minimis entries are subject to no duties and in this age where everybody is ordering stuff online, and sometimes these are big businesses who are shipping entries, hundreds of entries every day into the United States to the ultimate customer under the $800 exclusion limitation, and a lot of them are country of origin, china, which is under scrutiny. China is a country that is under scrutiny. These de minimis shipments are currently scrutinized and I would frankly expect there to be additional regulations by the end of this year or beginning of next year, just cutting back on these exclusions, because you can see the Congress is suspicious that this is being abused by larger companies. Dave: Yeah, and is the 800 per order, or is it a cumulative amount for a period of time? Susanne: It's per entry per day, so if the US consumer are the recipient of I don't know what you ordered online, that would be, let's say, $600 worth. Dave: So the strategy if I imported $20,000 of goods annually from China and I divide that by you know 250 business days, I think that's like about $100, like a day. If I'm doing my math right, 250, 2500. Yeah, so that's about $100 a day. So if I had that, my strategy then would be to ensure that the imports are staggered such that no one day $800 is imported. Right, and that's the strategy. I can imagine where that'd be a complicated thing to try to pull off, you know the coordination and the timing and it wouldn't be so much there. Susanne: And it wouldn't be so much there. But if you're doing like $200,000 a year, or you divide that by $250, and you're approaching $800 a day, then I would imagine that it would be very difficult to try to manage the timing of all of that. And it's also an issue, frankly, on custom side, because those small orders typically are not scrutinized, and now, if we are scrutinizing them, that's also an increased bureaucracy. So there are considerations here on all sides. At the same time, there are in place, as we all know, increased regulations on imports from China. All these Section 301 tariffs are mostly from China, on goods from China, and one of the proposals is that these de minimis items still would be subject to the 25% Section 301 duties, which they currently are not. Dave: I see. So you're saying that $800 threshold would no longer apply. So if you import, an item that costs $2, you still have to pay 50 cents. Susanne: But then again the bureaucracy right. So there is a real it's not an easy issue, but yes, it's mostly targeted really at China. Dave: Yeah, so one of the things I follow closely it's just a hobby of mine is the electric vehicle space, and I don't know if that's something you pay much attention to, but China produces like I think the latest stats I heard 70 or 80% of the electric vehicles produced in the world are produced in China, and they have tremendous excess capacity. I want to say they produce like 100% 15 to 20 million electric vehicles a year, but they have capacity for like 15 months. So of course they're looking to export them, and so one of the ways that they're looking to get around this is to take advantage of NAFTA or whatever the new NAFTA name is. What's the name? Susanne: USMCA yes. Dave: So what they're doing then is they're building factories in Mexico. Yes, so what they're doing then is they're building factories in Mexico and then importing that way, and what's interesting is that's like historically seemed to be appropriate because it's been a Mexican produced product. It just so happens to be owned by a Chinese company. But the, the talking or the, the suggested proposals, I think by both parties, certainly by the Trump administration is to disallow those products to be exempt from the import tariffs. I'm just curious have you heard anything about this? Not particularly, I have not followed the electric vehicles. Susanne: But that doesn't surprise me at all because those issues are always raised and trying to fight circumvention, where the country of origin is being changed artificially or legitimately right, and that decision and determination is always in the eye of the beholder and there are significant incentives to try to deviate from the country of origin determination of China and at the same time, the United States is investigating these issues all the time. And yes, there are exclusions I'm aware of, for country of origin or to no longer benefit from USMCA for certain specific items, for example. Another item is steel from Russia. We impose more restrictions on that, even if it's channeled through Mexico, and really I mentioned that our group, trade group, has increased. Well, as these issues increase, it really requires more attention and more expertise to advise clients on what is permitted and what is not permitted. And, of course, as a US importer, you always want to import items with the least amount of tariff. Dave: Yeah, of course. Yeah, no, that makes sense, well, good. Well, that's really helpful, because the funny thing is, you know, our practice is all export driven, but the average person thinks export is a part of a compound word called import-export and they just assume that we're well-versed in all the import rules and I always have to keep telling people it's just, that's not what we're focused on. So my knowledge of import rules is now infinitely higher than it was an hour ago. So thank you for that, Susanne. Susanne: You're welcome. You're welcome, and I can see how clients view that. To them, it's just things that cross the border. Dave: Whichever way, yeah, it's all the same to them. So what would you say are the characteristics for you of like an ideal client? Because, like I'm guessing, somebody who imports you know $2,000 a year of stuff from outside the US and they have a business that does $50,000 a year in revenue, I'm guessing that's like you all. That's not a good fit for you. It's just like overkill, right, there's just not. So help me understand what just like. Maybe you just pick the perfect client. What would the characteristics be? Susanne: There are really two buckets, I would say. The one is, of course, we like working with large importers and exporters who do this all the time, who have a traffic department who manages these functions and, as it gets to be, let's say, like you mentioned, the electric vehicle to a very specific case where they need outside assistance, that would be then our role and that is an ideal client. There is another bucket, and the other bucket is really the growing business. You know, if you are the company that imports $100,000 a year, okay, often, really, the company doesn't even realize they're importing and they often do not pay a whole lot of attention to that. Dave: Sure. Susanne: In the way our international world is going, they probably will increase the imports and their exports over the next couple of years and to me it's always best to counsel that company on how to develop a department that looks at these issues and remains compliance, not when they are now importing or exporting 100 million. You want to catch them before that. I don't know when that ideal spot is to where they don't get into trouble. As I said, we always want to counsel companies before they get into trouble. Counsel companies before they get into trouble. The function is a little bit on how precarious the items is. If everything let's say half a million dollars all imports from China, I would take a look at that, the imports that will be scrutinized. Or if you export, and you export half a million of items that are export controlled, you need to pay attention. So there is a little bit of an overlay. How controlled is the item? But and if it's just, I always use the example of brooms where you import brooms or export brooms not regulated of course then the threshold would be higher. You're really not under much of a scrutiny at all Not that there are none, but it's much less and really I would love to get all these companies at the sweet spot. Sure they grow appropriately and have a system in place, because it's always harder If you get somebody with 100 million of imports. They don't even have a good system. That's a difficult task. Dave: Yeah, yeah. So just to recap, so kind of the two perfect types are one would be like a large company with a relatively sophisticated internal traffic group, that's, you know that you know is basically set up for success and you know, they kind of know what they're doing. And then they call on you for specific arcane cases or situations where they can pull you in, you know, kind of as the expert. Now do you actually do you do opinion letters? You all do opinion letters in your practice. Susanne: We do, we do, and opinion letters is really on both sides export control and on customs. It's only the agencies who can give a binding ruling on how these items are classified. We will give opinions. What that will do? It will mitigate culpability. It doesn't mean we say we are 100% right all the time, because only the agencies can give these rules. Dave: Of course. Susanne: But it will go a long way to mitigating any exposure because the company obviously went out of their way. Dave: Yeah, well, and they relied. I think the key term is the reliance. They relied on your opinion and so, like you said, that then gives them, you know, protection from you know the extreme impacts of regulatory rulings. Susanne: Correct, correct and, yes, we will give opinions. Of course, a better way, if it's possible, is to get a binding ruling, because it's actually, in a way, often less work to get a binding ruling. Dave: Oh, is it? Yeah, I can see why Because you only have to provide enough data to satisfy the regulatory agency, Whereas for an opinion letter you maybe have to be more comprehensive to encompass all these different factors Correct. Correct. Yeah, that makes sense. So this is where, as we're nearing the end here, so I'm going to put you on the spot with this one. Okay, Are you ready? So I'm guessing that Denton's is not the only law firm in the world that's involved in international trade. Is that probably a fair assumption? So why, when your clients select you specifically, or the firm, if you've ever asked them, hey, you know how did you choose us. Why did you choose us? You know why do you keep using us? What's the response you get from your clients as far as why they they use the firm? Susanne: I believe that they use us because we are extremely business oriented and a lot of the other trade outfits are much more theoretical and okay professorial and really I going back full circle to my introduction how we got into this. We got into this because we have had clients in that space that we wanted to assist. Dave: Okay. Susanne: So we're a little bit more of like an in-house legal department. How we look at this, we're very practical. What can the company do to implement these rules and regulations with undue burden? We don't just counsel. These are the rules. This is what you have to do. We always take it a step further and assist the client in finding the best way to be compliant. Dave: Okay. Susanne: And that's in our blood. Dave: Okay. Susanne: Any piece of advice we give, we always ask ourselves, when we look at it from the perspective of the client, the company Okay, how can they do that? How can they do that? Because one can give all kinds of theoretical advice, which is good advice, but it just doesn't work, and we always ask that question. So I think that's an advantage. The other advantage is just the location Pittsburgh. Our cost structure tends to be more competitive than a you know, yes, our competitors often sit in new york, manhattan, in chicago, miami, the big trade centers now Trade Center. So now yes, so our cost structure is a Pittsburgh cost structure. Dave: Yeah, and then I suppose for a client who's actually based in Pittsburgh, it's a you know kind of a bonus or that makes you uniquely attractive to have a local resource with the international capabilities that you all have. Susanne: Correct, correct. Dave: Okay, so I've got only two more questions. One's an easy one. One's gonna be the hardest that you're gonna have. So the easy one is is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had asked you? Anything we didn't cover? Susanne: No, I would say that the one area we all believe that trade compliance will continue on this trajectory of increased attention and I think duties will continue to increase Export control requirements will increase as well. So I think this trajectory, will continue for anybody doing business internationally, and really this is one of the areas where it does not matter how our election will turn out, that's the trajectory Our world is more complicated and increased trade rules will continue to apply. Dave: Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because for the listener who's thinking, well, yeah, this is kind of a problem now, but I'm sure it's just temporary. If the right person wins the election, then this is going to go away. So thank you for saying that, that they need to get that naive thought out of their mind, right, it's only going to increase. Susanne: It's continuing. Dave: Yes, yeah, and so it sounds like the real takeaway is the the company companies involved in international trade should just accept that and expect the increase in it and just basically be prepared for that. Susanne: And for business it's always a cost-benefit analysis right. Dave: Of course, of course. Susanne: And the cost will not go away. Dave: Exactly Yep, no, that makes sense. Cost will not go away. Exactly Yep, no, that makes sense. So the last question. So this is the tougher one, and it's okay if you need to take a bit to think about it. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25-year-old self, what advice might you give to yourself? Susanne: When the 25-year-old myself was mostly interested always in international trade but I was interested in outbound transactions doing joint ventures in. Brazil, in Russia, in travel and really being in private practice in Pittsburgh. That turned out to be a bad business plan Because if I did my job well, like I said, I would find the perfect match in those countries to tend to the client and I might continue having a supervisory role or occasionally advise the client. But if it was the perfect match, even that would start being less and less. So, yes, the more focusing on the inbound transaction is, the better business. Dave: Okay, so you would have. The advice you'd give is focus more on that import transactions earlier, sooner than later. Susanne: That's right. And on export transactions dealing with US companies. But don't expect on the outbound side to continue to do the work if they form a company, if they outside of the United States and it's logical, very logical, but the 25 year old me did not see that sure, and what about? Dave: and what about, like on a maybe a more personal perspective advice you might give yourself of just you know kind of lessons you've learned more on the personal side? You know work, more work, less travel more. Travel, less eat, eat more desserts, eat less desserts. Any advice you you'd have for your 25-year-old self personally? Susanne: The advice is you need a good team. Dave: Okay. Susanne: You just need a good team and pay attention to building that team, and it also you alluded to it balance of life kind of situations One person can't do it all. It's the team that performs. Dave: Understood Well that is really great advice. Well, Susanne, this has really been fun for me, and I've learned so much about import items that I didn't know anything about, so I really appreciate your time and I hope you have a great afternoon. Susanne: Well, thank you, David, you too. Special Guest: Susanne Cook.

The U. S. is the largest importer of aquatic foods, which includes fresh and saltwater fish, crustaceans, mollusks, and aquatic plants served in restaurants and homes. A critical piece of this global market is the cold chain, keeping these foods chilled or frozen during storage and transport to market. With 44 percent of aquatic foods sold live or fresh globally, the percentage of fresh over frozen aquatic foods creates an extra logistical cold chain challenge. What's more, most aquatic foods become, well, fishy from cold chain disruptions, which can cause perceived food safety concerns, potentially resulting in food getting tossed into the bin. Until recently, research to understand just how much aquatic food gets wasted or lost has been spotty. However, in a recent Nature Food article, researchers argue that aquatic food loss and waste in the United States is actually half of earlier estimates. And that's good news that we'll explore today. This interview is part of an ongoing exploration of food loss and waste. This episode is co-hosted by environmental economist, Martin Smith at Duke University's Nicholas School of the Environment. Interview Summary Martin Smith - So I'm really pleased to introduce our guests for today. First up from University of Florida, a natural resource economist, Frank Asche. Frank is a long-time collaborator of mine and a good friend. And he's also one of the world's leading experts in seafood markets and trade. And honestly, Frank has taught me just about everything I know about aquaculture. Also today, we have Dave Love from the Johns Hopkins Center for a Livable Future. Dave is someone whose work I'm also very familiar with and is a leading expert in food systems and sustainability. And recently in my classes, I have often said out loud to some student questions that I don't know the answers to. I'll bet Dave Love knows the answer to that question. Norbert Wilson - So Dave, let's begin with you. Why was it important to develop better estimates and methods of aquatic food waste in the US? Why did your team pursue this research question? Dave Love - Great question. So, the US government has a goal of cutting food waste in half by 2030. And if you want to know how much you need to cut, you really need to go out and measure. And that's one of the areas of food waste that we really don't know a lot about for many different types of foods. We know the production data. We know how much is produced. We have a pretty good sense of what's consumed, whether that's in an economic sense of being consumed or actually eaten. But we really don't know how much is wasted. And groups come to the table with different numbers, different estimates, and they, they make their way into reports, into national guidelines. But for seafood in particular, the estimates haven't been refreshed in a while. So, it was about time to do that. And this study aimed to tackle that issue from all the stages of the supply chain, from production to consumption, looked at different forms of seafood and among the top 10 species. So, we rolled those species estimates and stage estimates into a national number. So yeah, that that's, that's why we did it. And we were really surprised at what we found. Norbert - Well, what surprised you? Dave - Well, earlier estimates were that about half of seafood was lost or wasted in the US and that came from UN Food and Agriculture Organization data. And when we actually crunched the numbers for the US supply, we thought it was more like 22.7 percent is wasted. So, a lot less than the FAO estimate. Which means we're doing a good job in some areas, but there's also room for improvement in others. Martin - So, Frank, maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the key takeaways from this Nature food paper are? Frank Asche - It's really that it's important to recognize that we are consuming a lot of different species and they have very, very different characteristics. For instance, the filler yield of a salmon is about 65 percent while for a cod it is about 40%. That makes your starting point really important. Moreover, this thing of looking at the whole supply chain is important because there are different ways to organize it, and there are a lot of potential uses for what food is sometimes wasted. And to look into what different types of producers are actually doing. What different companies that are operating these cold chains that Norbert spoke about are doing. And what they are doing when these things break apart. Kind of, there's all these people in the supply chain that may help us, and some of them do. Some of them aren't very good at it. But it's really nice to find that there are best practices that can really help us a lot of people take the trouble to figure that out and follow that up. Martin - That's really interesting. And it makes me wonder with all this heterogeneity that you're describing, are large producers better positioned to manage or, or reduce food waste than small producers? Or is it the other way around? Frank - Oh, I'm a good researcher. So it depends. Martin - It depends. Of course it depends. It depends! Frank - If we're going to say anything general then, in wealthy countries, large producers are better. In poor countries, small producers are better. In the sense that when labor cost is low, and food is relatively expensive people are much more willing to eat a fish that is not the best quality. While, if you're a small-scale producer in a wealthy country where labor is really scarce, you tend to focus on your main production process, which is the fillet. While if you become a big producer, then the quantities that potentially gets weighed that become so large that they actually are a useful raw material for new products. And we see big producers developing new products that it doesn't make sense for smaller producers to look at. You've all eaten your hamburgers. One of the more popular products in recent years is different kinds of seafood burgers. And they are great because they are trimmings and cutoffs and slices that doesn't fit well into that fillet that you're normally thinking about when you're consuming a chunk of fish. Martin - Yeah, and I think many seafood consumers have had that experience of being at the fish counter and saying, 'Oh, I only want this much,' and they put too much in there and like take a little off. And then you start to ask yourself the question, who's going to eat that little, little bit that gets sliced off. That's really interesting and enlightening. I had another question for Frank. Before we go back over to Norbert. So, in this paper, you describe different points along the food supply chain where the seafood might be lost or wasted. Can you talk a little bit more about that in different points in the supply chain and why there are some of these differences between species? You mentioned the sort of, yield of salmon and cod for a filet being a little different. And so, I'd like you to talk a little more about why different species might, might get different rates of loss. Frank - I think it starts with this thing here that for most seafood species, there's a choice part that is sort of your preferred chunk of meat. Most species it's a filet, but for a mussel, you eat everything that is within the shell. But it's different. But even for all those species, kind of, there are shrimps with small heads, there are shrimps with big heads, there are fish that gives you really good fillet yield, fish that doesn't. There are fish where there's a lot of useful meat that, say, the head or in the tail, that normally doesn't make it to a store, but it's useful if somebody chooses to use it. And then you have the quality issues. If a fish, say, falls to the floor during the production process, what do you do with that? And, yeah, that's one of those things we learned that in Vietnam, they will give it to a worker, and they will eat it. And Norwegian salmon, they will typically put it into some kind of acid where they use it to make animal foods. Small scale producers will just throw it into the bin. Other producers have good systems which, within the right hygienic control systems, are using what they can and not what they cannot. In general, producers have been getting better, but producers are still one of the key points in the chain. The companies from the producer of the raw fish to the consumer is generally pretty good. And there's fairly little waste in transportation and processing and so on. Then there's a bit more waste in the store. One of the cool little episodes I learned during this project was that one of the biggest items of food loss for fish in US grocery stores were people buying shrimp for the salad, and then deciding that they didn't want the salad anyway, and they are putting it in a shelf somewhere else. But you and I are the biggest problems. That is, what do we do with what we do not eat when we come home? What do we do with this portion that we put out of the freezer, and we didn't eat all of it. And we are pretty bad when we go to a restaurant too. And too often we don't eat our full portion. We may wrap it, but, but do we actually eat it the next day? In general, we do not. Norbert - Dave, I have a question. I recognize you as a sustainability expert. So how does understanding the pinch points for aquatic food losses and waste help households, the food industry and, and policymakers? Dave - Seafood is one of the most expensive proteins. If you go to the grocery store, it's going to be, you know, $9, $10 up to $15 or $20 a pound. And really, consumers don't have that amount of money to throw out. If they're going to buy it, it's in their best interest to eat it. So, we're looking at ways that the seafood industry can package and sell products that are going to help consumers, you know, stretch that dollar. One of the ways is through frozen seafood. Selling prepackaged individual units frozen. And, through this project, I've started to buy a lot more of that type of type of seafood. And you can also buy it now for other kinds of meats. And you just, whatever you want to prepare probably that, that next night you, you know, cut out the packaging, put it in the fridge and a little bowl in case from food safety standpoint in case it leaks. And then you don't want to leave it on the counter overnight or leave it out for a couple hours. But so, there are ways that you can package products that perceive what consumers are going to ask for. And you can still get that freshness in seafood, even if it's frozen. Because a lot of frozen seafood is frozen on board the vessel. It's frozen sooner than it actually would be if it was processed in a processing plant. So, you know, I think it's kind of a win-win. We've been exploring cook from frozen as a not just food waste, but also for other angles of sustainability. Because of course when there's waste is also the embodied energy and the embodied water and all the things that go into making that food. And when it gets to the consumer, it's got a lot more of those steps involved. Norbert - Thanks, Dave. I will say from some of my own research looking at package size, and package configuration that smaller, more readily used products are less likely to be wasted. I can appreciate that kind of innovation in seafood products could also be beneficial. And my family, we're big users of frozen seafood, and the quality is good. So, these are really helpful ways of thinking about how we as consumers can make adjustments to our behavior that can actually mitigate some of the food waste that you all observed. And so, because of this research, what new insights do you have about loss along the supply chain for aquaculture versus wild capture fisheries? Dave - That's a really good question. I can speak to the production stage. That's one of the areas we looked at where you see the most amount of food loss - at the production stage anyway. But we sort of split it out as the fisheries losses were either discards or bycatch. And from aquaculture, people had not really estimated what food loss looked like in aquaculture. But we looked at disease and mortality as a cause of food loss. We asked farmers, what's your typical mortality rate when you're raising shrimp or salmon or tilapia? We got back their mortality rate, we did some modeling, some estimation and found out when a certain percent of that harvest dies. Not just when they're babies, but when they die close to the harvest period, we'd count that as, as food waste. Because there are ways to control disease in aquaculture. You know, it's not going to be zero. There are always going to be some animals that die. But, if you do control disease, you can cut down on some of this kind of perceived food waste in the process. So, we counted those two things differently. I would think a good example would be Alaska sockeye salmon. Over the last 10 or 15 years, they've instituted a lot of new methods for reducing damage to fish when they're captured. For example, now you get incentives as a fisherman to put down rubber mats. So, when the fish come off nets, they don't hit the boat hard, they'll hit a rubber mat. Their incentive is to bleed the fish, which helps with quality. And of course, to ice them when they're caught. You know, a lot of the catch of sockeye salmon in the '80s - '90s, didn't necessarily get refrigerated after it was caught. It went to a canning line. And folks eating canned salmon, they couldn't tell the difference. But as the salmon industry in Alaska transitioned to more of a value-based fishery, they increase the quality, increase the percentage of fillets compared to canned. I think a lot of these things go hand in hand with value. As you decrease food waste, increase food quality, you can sell it for more. I think that's a nice transition point for a lot of farms and producers to think about. Martin - Since we're on salmon, I have a quick follow up on that. I noticed in the paper there is some differences in the rate of food waste for wild caught sockeye and for farmed Atlantic salmon. And in my mind, I immediately went to, well is that because most of that wild caught sockeye is ending up frozen? Maybe it's sold at the fresh counter, but it's been previously frozen. That's certainly my experience as a seafood consumer. And most of that farmed Atlantic salmon is actually sold directly as fresh and never frozen. And so, I'm wondering how much of that is a driver or how much it's really the disease thing? Dave - It's probably a little bit of both. At the retail stage, if you're going to a grocery store and you're looking at that fresh display case, the rate of waste there is somewhere between five and 10 percent of what's in that display case. It's going to end up in the garbage. They want to just have a nice presentation, have a lot of different products laid out there and they don't all get purchased. Some grocery stores will prepare that and sell it on a hot bar. Others, their principle is we just want to provide the freshest thing and they are okay with a little bit of waste. For canned and frozen seafood, the rate is more like 1%. And as Frank alluded to, sometimes people pick up a frozen item and they get to the checkout counter and they go, you know, I didn't really want to buy that. And they might slip it into you know, another aisle where it shouldn't be. That middle of the chain, there's not a lot of waste that we saw. You know, wholesalers and distributors, that's their job to deliver food and they really do a good job of it. And then at the upstream stage, the production stage, there's a big range in waste. And it depends on the product forms and at what point is the fish cut and frozen. Martin - So, I have a question for both of you now, maybe changing topics a little bit. So, reducing food waste, food loss and waste, is an important element of environmental sustainability. I think we all agree on that. And that's particularly in response to climate change. We know that Greenhouse gas emissions associated with our food system are a major contributor to climate change. I'm wondering, sort of looking ahead, what role do you see seafood in general playing in a future in which we might price carbon emissions. We might actually make it costly to buy products that have a lot of that embodied greenhouse gas emissions in it. Frank - Yeah, pretty well actually. But it depends a little bit on what's your current diet. If it has lots of red meat, seafood is going to do really well because red meat in general have significantly higher carbon emissions. If you're a vegetarian, maybe not that much. So, in the bigger scheme of things, seafood looks pretty good in the category of animal proteins, largely together with chicken. The difference between most seafoods and chicken is not too big. And of course, there's a little bit of variation within the seafood. They of course have a problem though in that nature produces a limited quantity of them. And if the amount completely takes off, there's no way you can increase the supply. So, then it must be aquaculture. And then you are more than slightly better or approximately chicken. Dave - And I'd say you know, if you want to learn more about this topic, stay tuned. We've got a paper coming out about that. It should be out fall 2024 or early 2025. Similar to the waste piece, we've done the energy footprint, the greenhouse gas footprint, and the water footprint of all the products you see in the Nature Food paper. And we're really excited to share this finding soon. Martin - That sounds really exciting and I can't wait to see it. Norbert - I'm curious about your thoughts on how trade incentives or restrictions could be used to remote access to aquatic foods in addition to climate resilience of the food system? Frank, could you give us your thoughts? Frank - Oh, there's a short answer to that or a complicated answer. So, the short is, of course, you can do like you're done with some other challenges. You also have dolphin-safe tuna and turtle-safe shrimp and so on. And you could basically make it hard to enter the market for people with bad practices. And you can make it easier to enter the market for producers with good practices. But if you go to the more complicated thingy, and particularly if you are also interacting with domestic supply chains, then we do know really well that eating beef is a real environmental challenge. But I still cannot see a world, at least within the foreseeable future, where US policy is going to sort of suggest that we're going to import more seafood so that we can produce less beef. And when you get to all those complicated interactions, yes, you can use trade policies to advance some agendas. But they are certainly going to run into some others, and it's a challenge when there's so large heterogeneity when it comes to what do you think a good food system is. Norbert - Dave, what about you? Dave - Well, I sort of come at this from a different angle. You're thinking about local; you know. What's the value of local food and local and regional food systems? And so, in principle, I'd like to suggest that to people to buy their food from regional markets. Because of the connection to place and that's really important. Once you have that connection to place, then you start to value the environment where it comes from. You get a little bit closer tied to the labor market and the folks who grow and produce that food. So, I like to kind of come at it from that perspective. Invariably we're going to have some internationally traded seafood. Right now, 70 percent of seafood is imported. But I think looking at opportunities to support your local and regional fisheries, and your local and regional aquaculture, I think there's a lot of merits to that. Some of them could be climate arguments. And there's lots of other good arguments for it as well. Frank - I agree with that, but I really think that you should have the caveat that producing your seafood, or really any food under good microclimatic conditions, with good soils or water for that product, gives you food with a much smaller footprint than what you have necessarily locally. And particularly if you're producing something that doesn't really belong that well locally. And it's also really important that, except if you fly your food by air the carbon footprint of transports is tiny. Dave - Yes, that was, that was one thing we found. With air cargo be really careful. You want to buy live seafood or fresh seafood that's air freighted, that's going to be a big piece of the carbon footprint. And really for consumers, an easy way to chip away at their environmental impact is to cut out stuff that's flown in fresh. But, you know, that flies in the face of what restaurants and grocery stores are trying to sell, which is 'the freshest.' ‘We're going to give you never frozen super fresh.' So there's a bit of a disconnect there. And I think unlocking that is going to be getting into some of these chefs' minds and talking to them about - you know fresh is important, but how do you want to spin this in a way that you can have it fresh today, but you also can have it fresh in the future. Not just today, but a few generations down the road when it is possible to fly in food from all over the world that have that perfect plate. And you know, this is something that we need to engage with lots of different people on. Martin - It sounds a little bit like you're suggesting a, a world in which we, we seek to consume fresh local, and frozen global. In the sense that, that you cut down all those, those transportation, greenhouse gas emissions, if you're doing frozen seafood, and you can exploit that sort of natural comparative advantages of different places to farm and different places to catch seafood with those global markets. But, but for the real fresh stuff, there might be some benefits to eating locally, including those, those greenhouse gas emissions. Dave - When we looked at the trade from Asia, 99 percent comes by container ship. You know, almost nothing's being flown in. And then when you look at closer markets to the US. What was Europe... it was maybe closer to 50 /50 for flown versus shipped by water. And yes, I think South America was similar. I guess the closer you get to the US market, you know, there's that incentive to kind of fly it in and get the price premium. There's definitely a reason to do it, but it does come with a part of the carbon footprint, you know. It's, it's maybe a quarter, maybe a third, you know? Frank - But as Marty alluded to, as long as there's no cost associated with the carbon footprint as is the case now, nobody will really care. It's first when you actually have a system where there's a price to it that you would expect to see any real change. Dave - Yes. And, we did some work, sort of a spinoff to this. We looked at the US seafood industry and then they become more carbon neutral. We teased that out for a couple of different sectors: farmed catfish in Alabama and wild caught salmon. And there are steps that producers and fishers can do, but a lot of it's going to have to depend on their local utility. What's the energy mix of the utility? Because that utility energy mix is what feeds the plant. It feeds the energy going to a catfish farm. And they use a lot of electricity, but they don't have a big say in what the Mississippi Electric Cooperative or Alabama Electric Cooperative chooses as its energy mix. So, I think there's, it's really a 360 issue that when you start trying to unpack energy and climate, it goes well beyond the seafood sector really quickly. So, we can be a voice. But it's going to take a lot of people to make systematic change. Martin - Great. So, I had one final question to ask each of you. And that's really about what's next? And I know we have this other paper that's coming out to look deeply into the life cycle of the different species featured in your food waste paper. But I'm wondering specifically what's next on seafood waste and, and what kinds of things will affect what kinds of policy changes might be on the horizon, what kinds of things will affect change, short of, I guess, what we've already talked about. Which is some, you know, sweeping carbon legislation that, that prices carbon. But short of that, what other kinds of things are going to affect change and what else do we need to know? Let's start with you, Dave, and then then we'll go to Frank. Dave - I think we sort of laid out the big picture. The estimates for the US supply for different production stages. But I think we really need to drill down into case studies where folks, us and, and colleagues, I know Ronnie Neff is exploring this with you Norbert, but really drill down into case studies that try out some of these ideas that we have. Some of the innovations being implemented and see how they work and maybe scale up the best ones. Frank - Right. And beyond that is like companies are doing what companies always have been done at all stages in supply chain. As long as new technology makes it profitable for them to be more sustainable, they're going to be more sustainable. So, there's going to be a lot of new packaging and new ways of chilling and so on that will help. But at the end of the day, the biggest challenge is you and I as consumers, and what we both buy. Because that determines what products is going to be on offer. And then how we treat them after we have purchased them. This podcast is co-sponsored by the Recipes Food Waste Research Network Project, led by American University and funded by the National Science Foundation. BIOS Dave Love is a Research Professor at the Johns Hopkins Center for a Livable Future. Dave's work focuses on aquaculture and fisheries and the environmental, social, health and food system issues related to those industries. He also engages in a wide range of food-related topics including food waste, veterinary drugs and drug residues in foods, antimicrobial resistance, and CAFO worker and community health. In 2012 he founded a research and teaching farm at the Cylburn Arboretum in Baltimore and oversaw the facility from 2012 to 2015. The farm is now called the Food System Lab and is a place where students of all ages learn about urban agriculture. The Food System Lab is a member of the Farm Alliance of Baltimore and sells produce at the Waverly Farmers Market. Prior to joining Johns Hopkins Dave was a postdoctoral fellow with Dr. Kara Nelson, working at the interface of engineering and microbiology, in the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of California Berkeley. Frank Asche is a professor of natural resource economics at the University of Florida School of Forest, Fisheries, and Geomatic Sciences. He is a natural resource economist with a research focus on seafood markets, production of seafood from fisheries and aquaculture and the sustainability of these production processes. Frank is president of the International Association of Aquaculture Economics and Management (IAAEM), editor for Aquaculture Economics and Management and associate editor for Marine Resource Economics. He was also a member of the team that developed the Fish Price Index of the United Nation's Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO).​  

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, we welcome Deanna Walker, CEO of Venturity Financial Partners, to discuss the world of outsourced accounting. Deanna reflects on transitioning from banking to leading an accounting firm committed to transparency and team-based client service. We explore Venturity's unique approach to addressing private businesses' administrative and strategic needs. From supporting founder-led ventures to navigating COVID disruptions, Deanna shares insights into competently enhancing clients' capabilities. Our conversation considers the evolving role of CPA firms and the benefits of mentorship in this field. This episode offers not just information but valuable perspectives on outsourcing in today's accounting landscape, enlightening you on the potential strategies and solutions available.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed outsourced accounting services with Deanna Walker, CEO of Venturity Financial Partners, exploring their commitment to open book management and "The Great Game of Business" principles. Deanna shared her journey from a decade-long banking career to leading Venturity, highlighting her experiences in business development and the firm's team-based approach. We examined a case study involving a multi-entity dental service organization where Venturity's offshore team significantly improved financial reporting and reduced errors. The conversation included how Venturity supports founder-led companies by maintaining institutional knowledge while enhancing accounting capabilities amid a nationwide shortage of qualified accountants. We delved into the importance of quality work, proactive collaboration, and consistent communication with clients in financial services, emphasizing a team-based approach to outsourcing. Deanna discussed the evolving role of CPA firms in the outsourcing space and the impact of regulations like Sarbanes-Oxley on their services. We explored Venturity's advisory practice, which includes a team of CFOs and COOs providing operational expertise and strategic planning support to clients. Deanna highlighted the significance of mentorship, particularly for women in accounting, and the positive impact of open book management on team engagement and service quality. We addressed the challenges Venturity faced during the COVID-19 pandemic, including capacity issues and the necessity of prioritizing client relationships based on mutual value. The episode concluded with a lighthearted debate on the merits of Texas barbecue versus Tex-Mex cuisine, revealing a shared passion for Tex-Mex.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Deanna C Walker (https://www.linkedin.com/in/deannacwalker/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Venturity Financial Partners GUEST Deanna WalkerAbout Deanna TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hello, this is David Sprey and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today Deanna Walker, the CEO of Venturity Financial Partners in. Deanna: Dallas. Dave: And Venturity is a outsourced accounting consulting firm and they've also grown into outsourced CFO, coo type work. We had a really great conversation talking about a variety of different things. One of the most interesting is they're committed to open book management and following the framework from the book the Great Game of Business framework from the book the Great Game of Business, and over time they've even gotten to where they are consulting with their clients on implementing open book management and all the benefits to it. So we went into some details there and I asked my standard questions, of course, about what they wish they had known when they were 25. And so it was a really great interview. Deanna has a really great story and we also got into a little bit of UT and A&M rivalry. So it was a fun conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Good morning, deanna. How are you today? Deanna: I'm great, David. How are you? Dave: I am doing great. I have my Yeti Whataburger cup and you'll see it as we talk. Deanna: There we go, let me some Whataburger. Dave: I know. So where are you located today? Deanna: I'm actually in Dallas, Texas. Dave: Okay, great, and I am in Houston, where I typically am. Hey, before we get started, I want to just address something that may cause this to be a very short podcast, so I noticed that you appear to be a proud graduate of Texas A&M University. Is that true? Deanna: Very true Well. Dave: I am a proud graduate of another large Texas State University in Austin. So I just thought, if this is going to be a problem. We should probably, you know get it out of the way right away. Deanna: I don't think it'll be a problem. I've already addressed this similar issue about 30 years ago. My husband went to the University of Texas, so we are divided. And I've got one graduate of there already and is soon to be graduate in May, and I can also probably say I am one of very few individuals, if not the only one, that has graduated with a degree from A&M that has a license plate currently that says hook'em. Dave: Yeah, you better not let too many Aggies hear about that, they may disown you. Deanna: Yeah, no. Well, we also have a text exchange that's called UT3 and a wannabe. So I would say I'm old Southwest Conference because I've got ties to SMU and Arkansas. So that may date me a little bit, but that's how far back I go with our Texas football. Dave: That's. That is awesome. So are you a native Texan then? Deanna: I am Born and raised in San Antonio, okay. Dave: Yeah, I grew up just east of San Antonio, so I know that part of the state. Well, let's get started. Tell me about Venturity Financial Partners. What the heck do you all do? Deanna: Well, we help business owners, CEOs, management teams solve problems that relate to their accounting back office, including the office of the C-suite. The CFO and the COO relate an alternative to becoming an in-house accounting and finance group. Dave: Okay, and where you see that you've been the CEO for a little, while not a long time. What's the background? How did you end up there? Did you start your career there? What's the story? Deanna: Yeah, no good question. I had about a 10-year banking career. So, coming out of A&M, moved to Dallas and worked in the investment banking field and corporate lending, acquisition financing field for about 10 years or so. Took a little bit of a break when my kids were younger and then got introduced to Chris McKee, the founder of Venturity, in 2001. I really fell in love with the business model and the opportunity to, like I said, help business owners, ceo-led teams, really focus on their back office accounting and bring expertise to the table, and so mainly grew up on the side of the business. That was, the business development side of the house. So most recently, before taking over CEO, I was the CRO. Dave: Oh okay, Chief revenue officer. Deanna: Yes. Dave: Okay, so who? What are the characteristics of the companies that you're kind of best suited to to serve then? Deanna: Yeah, Privately held companies really ranging in size from 10 to 500 million in revenue. Companies, like I said, people don't come to us generally because everything is working great in their finance and accounting department. They usually come because they're frustrated, can't get the right teams in place, not comfortable with their information, and so we can bring a lot of that expertise and partner with them. Dave: Okay, and what is that? And how does that look like? Is it, like you know, consulting engagements? Do they just completely like outsource their back office to you? Is it a mix? Deanna: It's a mix, it's a little bit of both At our core on the accounting outsourcing side. It's, like I said, an alternative to having an in-house team. It's a team-based approach and then we can augment that solution with special project resources, either on the accounting side and then, most recently in the last three and a half years, we added a COO advisory team that can really round out that finance function. And whether it's for an ongoing type of service there or popping in for a project either way. Dave: Okay, got it. Okay, I think I'm with you so far. Well, I love stories and I think our audience does too. Do you have some like client, like success stories that you can tell us about? And I realize you may have to have them anonymous, but I think that helps people understand, understand better with stories and examples. Do you have some stories? Deanna: I do. You know, I guess before I would launch into that I would say is just to add on a little bit to the concept of people don't come to us because their accounting is going well. You know, we're system agnostic, which I also think is a benefit. We work with a variety of industries and so just a lot of times people will come because they're very frustrated in terms of being able to attract and retain top talent where there's been a transition in their business and they're looking to augment and get information. So one that comes to mind in particular it's a family-run business, a wholesale distribution company, and they knew they wanted to sell second generation, but they really knew they wanted to sell. The CEO was not a family member. There was a family member that was still involved in the company and so they brought us on to help get their accounting ready for sale. I'm sure processes really make sure that they are adherence with GAP and so we worked with them probably for I don't know about a year and a half or so working through all of that, getting good cadence, with their month in close and their financial reporting really all in preparation to be put up for sale. Excuse me, they went through a successful transition. This one happened to be purchased by a private equity group, but we really help companies get ready for sale in all areas, but this one was private equity back and I think the interesting thing to note there is that this company has become now the platform for additional add-on acquisitions. So what we've also been able to do is augment to help the due diligence with this group in bringing the special project resources to bear, as well as CFO consulting and advisory. You know when it's needed. Dave: Okay, no, that's, that's great, did? I'm a big fan of John Wierlow's podcast. You know John. He wrote the book Built to Sell and he has a great podcast where he interviews every week an entrepreneur who had a successful exit and they kind of debrief on everything. Do you think that deal would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, to get done if they had not engaged you for the prior year and a half? Do you think it would have just been a non-starter for the private equity firm without that, or do you think it would have just been a lower price? Deanna: That's it lower price. There's a lot of capital out there that people have been to deploy, so I don't know that. I would say I think the accounting, when it's really bad, it may delay. I don't think it keeps the deal from getting done. But I think what we have seen and what our investment bankers and private equity folks will tell us, that having good information and your ducks in a row can really be the equivalent of two to three times turn on an EBITDA. So it's definitely an enhancer to valuation. Dave: Okay, give me one second. Hey, my dog is over in the corner. He woke up and decided his bed wasn't quite comfortable. He was just scratching around. Sorry about that, yeah, and that's, and that is what it comes down to, right, and then the due diligence was probably less painful. I'm guessing as well. Deanna: Yeah, it is. You know we have a product called an accounting assessment and it really sits in front of the Q of E reporting that is in either on behalf of the company or the private equity group and really just kind of what I'll call kick the tires on the accounting and it may seem like basic things but it can be very important. Are they really gap compliant? Are they matching revenue and expenses? Do they have an accounts payable process? Is there a revenue recognition need? That's out there for the type of company they are, and are they adhering to the right treatments there? So those are things where we can really go a little bit deeper into the accounting pretty quickly and that really helps with that Q of E and just helps the process move along to identify what might need to be shored up. Dave: Okay and Q of E quality of earnings. Deanna: Quality of earnings yes. Dave: Yes, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, okay. Well, that's a cool one. You have some other client stories. Deanna: Yeah, another one a little bit larger company. So we're, you know, like I said, we can work with companies 10 to 500 million in revenue, and this one was a multi-entity dental service organization and this one in particular had grown through acquisition. The CEO, when they came to us, was pretty frustrated and heavily involved in the accounting. They had a team in place, four or five person team, some offshore, some onshore and it just wasn't getting the information that he needed and instead of using the time when the financials were generated to analyze and look forward, a lot of time was spent checking for errors. This particular company had outside reporting to an investor group as well as to a bank, and so there was just a lot of eyes in different constituencies looking at the information. And there's just a lot of eyes and different constituencies looking at the information and there's just a lot of time checking for mistakes. And so we were able to come in and map out the very seamless transition over a period of a few months. We tapped into our offshore team as well that we've had since 2006. And we were able to transition to the accounting to our team really short processes and procedures move up the month-in-close timeframe so we could get information into the hands of the management team sooner and then hence out to the external reporting constituencies. And now the time is spent really looking at the operations of the business, figuring out what needs to be drilled down on getting information out to those individual locations more analysis and forward looking than looking for errors. Dave: Okay, did they end up just eliminating that internal team then? Deanna: There was a transition. A couple of people on their India side were kept and moved over to. We don't handle the billing, because insurance billing had a different team, but a couple of those folks were moved over to that team and then the others were transitioned out. We don't handle the billing, because insurance billing had a different team, but a couple of those folks were moved over to that team and then the others were transitioned out. We don't always have to be a situation where we transition team members out. A lot of times it's really based on sort of the level of talent and what the opportunity is there. We kind of round out that function if there's resources that need to remain in-house. Dave: Okay, so you had a situation here where, let me just recap because of the bank and the investor group, the accounting team was hyper-focused on not being in the uncomfortable position where the bank or an investor would say, hey, what's this expense? Then they look at it and then they come back and say, oh, that was a mistake, we had miscoded that, and which just crushes the confidence that those investors and users have. So it sounds like they were hyper-focused on preventing that and they probably got to that hyper-focused because they'd been burned, probably in the past. So they got to that position to burn probably in the past. So, yes, so they got to that position and because of that that slowed down the close and it just had them really devoting a lot of time and resources to just that. You know, no, no errors financial. Deanna: Yes, and also getting the senior management team involved and kind of running down those errors, spending way too much time in the higher level I mean, because the trust wasn't there and they were the ones that were putting their faces on the front lines right to the investor group and to the banks, and there was, you know, debt on the books and you know, and so they really wanted to kind of just glitched up sort of the roles and responsibilities and freed up the CEO to really, like I said, focus on more of the analysis once the team was able to start trusting in the numbers again. Dave: Okay, well, that's okay. That's another great story. Do you have a third one? Deanna: Let's see. You know, I think we've had lots of situations where we can come in, so these were involved, sort of taking over everything that. We have lots of situations, though, where we can come in, so these were involved, sort of taking over everything that. We have lots of situations, though, where we can come in. And you know the thing about some, especially the founder led companies they have really great people on their team that have grown up with them over time and they become family members, right, and so it can be difficult or challenging sometimes when you've got a really longstanding, committed team member, but maybe the company has grown to the point where it's maybe outstripped the skill sets of that individual or individuals, and so those team members bring a lot to the table in terms of institutional knowledge, but they may not have what's needed to take the company to the next level from the accounting standpoint, especially if there's complexity in the business. Sure, mentory management, manufacturing processes or, for construction, clients work in process. So we do this quite a bit. Actually, we'll come into scenarios where those types of team members are on the ground and a lot of times the business owner, the management team, really want to keep those folks and elevate them into new roles because of their operational expertise. So we can come in and augment and work with those types of team members so they don't have to be displaced and they can get more on the analytical side of it, or they can be a bridge between operations and accounting and then we can come in and do that blocking and tackling on the accounting and really get the books closed and make sure that we bring that type of product to the table for them, but that those individuals stay in place and are supported by us but also elevated and coached by us if need be too. So I don't have a specific particular client on that one, because that's a lot of what we do for clients. Dave: Yeah, no, that's great A representative example, because that's a lot of what we do for clients. Yeah, no, that's great A representative example. So the CPA firms we work with, you know, so basically all of our clients because we do just one, we do just one part of the tax process that we coordinate with their longtime CPA firms so we have interactions with hundreds of CPA firms each year. Firms so we have interactions with hundreds of CPA firms each year and, of course, a common theme is just the shortage of qualified people, and I'm guessing that's a similar problem in-house as well, not just in public accounting. Is that accurate? Does there seem to be a shortage of talented people? Deanna: Yes, we've had a shortage of accounting folks for quite some time, really even pre-COVID, but it's definitely been exacerbated by COVID and the opportunity for accounting folks to work remotely to service companies all over the country and, in fact, from all over the world. I think we've been doing outsourcing since 2000, and so we were a little bit on the cutting edge of, hey, you can get your accounting done and not be in the office, you know, sitting there. But now it's really opened all of that up, and so it has created some challenges in attracting and retaining folks. So for us we're not immune from that. But we offer our team members the ability to work with a lot of different clients and be promoted from within and a career path and, you know, in training as well, and so they're first and foremost employees of Venturity, which we are a 20% ESOP owned company and we're also open book management. So we invest a lot in our culture, which I believe helps us to attract and retain folks. We also have an offshore partner that we have worked with since 2006. And so we partner with them and so we divide and conquer on scope of resources between our two groups as well, which just helps us in terms of being able to, if an opportunity comes to us, especially if it's a large one, mobilize quickly to serve that client. But you're right, it's been tough for several years now. Dave: But it sounds like in on balance it's been more of an opportunity for you because you're better able to navigate that shortage than what your client is probably. Is that accurate? Deanna: Yes, I would say so. I think you know that's very true, and we can provide that ongoing training as well, and we have 50 accountants that come to the office every day. So there's a lot of collaboration, team-based approach, resource sharing, things like that, and so that's enticing to a lot of people, as well as the ability to get exposure to a lot of different companies and a lot of different industries. So being system agnostic, working in a lot of different systems as well as industry, provides a lot of opportunity for folks in the accounting field and the opportunity to be promoted as well. Dave: Okay, and you all don't like audit financial statements or prepare tax returns, correct? No? Deanna: that's a really great question. So we're really structured as a professional services company and we like to say we sit on the same side of the table as our clients. So while we have CPAs on staff and our founder is a CPA, our clients get audited by outsourced CPA firms and we don't do tax work either. So we're more of that internal accounting department resource and we partner a lot of times with the tax CPAs and the auditors in terms of giving them the information they need to discharge their services. Dave: Okay, what do your clients say? Or what would you think your clients would say if I said, hey, what makes Venturity so great to work with? What are the things that your clients tell you differentiate you in the marketplace or make you such a valuable partner? Deanna: Yeah, I would say the quality, two things the quality of our work as well as the proactive focus we have on collaboration and communication with our clients. We're consistent. We deliver our financials on time. We send out weekly updates to our clients that they even though we're not going on site to do the work on a regular basis they know at any given point in time where they stand. We're in constant communication with them. We do have onsite meetings it's not like they never see us by any means, but it's very reliable, very consistent. It's very process and team-based versus a people-based solution where you have, maybe you know, all of your accounting is done by one individual and it's tied up in the head and knowledge of that one person. We bring a team to the table and divide and conquer on skill sets, and that's a little bit unique in terms of the way outsourcing. We bring a team to the table and divide and conquer on skill sets, and that's a little bit unique in terms of the the way outsourcing it has been done. Dave: I know some of our the CPA firms. We know, because of the shortage of talent, they've had to make some hard decisions. You know which clients you know they can serve and they've had to actually, you know, disengage with clients just because they didn't. You know they just don't have enough people to really serve everybody. Have you all had to go through a similar process where there's just you know some of your smaller clients you just realized you just don't have the capacity for? Has that been a challenge for you as well? Deanna: We definitely have gone through that in various periods of time. You know we had a couple of things during and coming out of COVID. There was just more work to be done than you can have people for, and so you know there was at one time at our not proud of this, but we had a wait list of like six to eight weeks to bring on a new client and that's super challenging. And so at that point in time we, you know, we were working to have the most efficient client relationships that we can, and you know we want to make sure we have partnerships with our clients where there's mutual value in the relationship. We're more than just bookkeepers and ticking and tying on transactions. So our clients that really that we both collectively benefit the most from, are those that really value that collaboration that we were talking about getting together once a month and having financial summits or we call it getting the call, the ones that are going to pick up the phone and call us and include us in decision-making. And so when we have to have those times that are unfortunate, when we go through some of those analysis to make sure what's the best fit, we take all those things into consideration. So we have had to do it. We don't like to do it necessarily, but at the end of the day we're looking for the right fit on both sides, and so generally that works itself out in the way that it's supposed to. Dave: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. As far as new business the business that's referred does it come mostly from current clients, investors, cpa firms, banks, a mix of all of them, and are there any? There have been any trends in the last few years where it's shifted one way or another? Deanna: way or another, the answer is yes, it comes from all of those. We've got a really great business development team. So we're a referral-based, relationship-based selling organization. We do very little cold calling. We're keeping our eye on things that are out there in the market and definitely are opportunistic. If we come across a company that we may think that is looking for someone or could use our services, and we'll reach out. But yes, we, we develop a group of center of influence. You know relationships and they are comprised of everything you just mentioned. You know bankers, cpa firms, lawyers you know, other professional services providers that really have the ear of that client. You know as well. I would say, one of the things that's been an interesting trend as of late and I would say late, maybe four or five years is the CPA firms are more and more focusing on the client accounting outsourcing space Used to be they would do bookkeeping as a means to an end for the tax work and they weren't so much focused on providing what I would call ongoing accounting services to clients, but we've definitely seen a focus in that area in the last five or six years, but it's pretty popular right now and so, but there's still so many companies that need expertise. We don't often go up against five or six at a time when we're looking at a new relationship. It's still very rare, and mostly what we're competing against is companies choosing to build an internal team, but we're definitely the CPA firms putting more emphasis on it. We still have maintained those referral relationships because if you are auditing those companies, you generally don't want to necessarily be doing the accounting for them, and so we partner with folks that really want to put the best interest of the client first and foremost, and so our referral partners. You know there's sometimes overlap in terms of what maybe they can do and what we can do, but when we take that honest approach to what's the best in the best interest of the client, that tends to work itself out. So we want to have partners as well. When we come across something that is not going to be a great fit for us, that we can send and know that they're going to get taken care of in the way we would. Dave: Okay, no, I like it and that's interesting that evolution of the CPA firms really doing more and more outsourced accounting. It makes sense and I think back when I was at Arthur Anderson like a long time ago well, they'd been out of business for 25 years, so it's been a long time ago but I think back then the accounting firms could actually do consulting for clients they audited and I think that was part of the shakeout or the fallout from that and I think that's what led to Sarbanes-Oxley and some of that stuff. Deanna: Now you're getting a little technical on me, but it's actually true. So, public companies if you're a public company you really can't do it. If you are private, technically you can have that separation. The onus is on the CPA firm to make sure that if they're doing an audit and also doing the accounting, that they put the proper separation in place. But a lot of them just won't mess with it. You know because of things that have happened in the past. In certain situations it might make sense, but we oftentimes find that they like to maintain those relationships and so if they've got a strong audit relationship and there's an accounting need there, they generally will refer it out. Dave: Okay, well, that is excellent. We have covered a lot quickly as we're kind of nearing the home stretch. Is there anything I have not asked you that you wish I'd asked you? Deanna: You asked some really good questions. I mean, I think we haven't talked too much. We talked a lot about accounting. We haven't talked too much about our advisory practice. Dave: Yeah, let's talk about that. Deanna: It's relatively new. So our company is 23 years old and I've been with the firm for about 20 and off and on throughout that time. Actually, during all of that time our focus up until about three and a half years ago was the outsourced accounting piece and to get specific about, that's what I would call the controller level and down. So you know our relationships are rooted in that month in close in the financial reporting. We can also pay bills, invoice clients. We don't do actual payroll processing but we do payroll coordination. So a lot of balance sheet reconciliation work, that type of thing, and over the years there would be times where a client may need that forward looking piece or some additional consultation or an advisor to the CEO or what have you, and so we would bring in a CFO generally fractional CFO partner from the outside. So we would maintain those relationships as well and have good referral network there and that's worked really well and we've maintained those relationships. But about three and a half years ago we established our practice internally as well and we have five what we'll call CXOs. But the reason we have the CXO in there is because it's a combination of CFOs and a couple of folks that are COO, executive type individuals that are 25 plus 30 years plus of experience in the marketplace that can bring that expertise and knowledge to the table to really round out our accounting function and really have what we call that seat at the table with the management team. What that does is it allows us to go deeper with our clients and bring operational expertise to the table or kind of merge and mesh the operations in the accounting. Accounting is the ultimate scorecard. So if you're doing your accounting correct and you're analyzing your information, then you can take it back to what's going on in the operations right, whether it's a process you need to revamp or sales you need to focus on or handling something slightly different way, so that team can help. Those individuals can help bridge that gap and then take that information and look forward with the client as well, and get more into forecasting and budgeting. And how do we prepare for a sale, or where should we go next? A new market, that type of thing. So it brings that operational focus in, you know, to the forefront too. Dave: And that service? Was that more an augmentation of existing relationships or adding that piece? Or is that actually grown to be where you're actually bringing clients in through that service path and then sometimes adding the accounting outsourcing or not? Deanna: Yeah, that's a really great question. It's been a little bit of both. So, you know, we've been able to expand our existing client relationships and bring that level of you know of service to the table. But then we have a lot of opportunities that we may not have been able to do the accounting if it were not for that C-suite individual to lead the charge of the team. And those are usually, the more you know, david, the more complex situations where and it's generally not the complexity related to the accounting, it's the complexity related to the relationships, the management team folks, the constituencies, whether external reporting, things like that to have that C-suite individual to help manage all of that allows us then to come in and do what you do, what we do, really well, which is the accounting. It can be challenging for our controllers to have to manage multiple relationships at the client level because of the way that our teams are set up. So to have that extra level of expertise who can get in there and have those conversations and be a right hand to the CEO or other members of the management team, allows us to have a more expanded relationship in certain situations. Dave: OK, yeah, I can see why you all have gotten into that service line. And then how do you know when to still use one of your longstanding fractional CFO relationships, maybe industry expertise or something like that? Deanna: relationships, maybe a industry expertise or something like that. Yes, thank you for bringing that up, because I'm particularly proud of the fact that when we started the practice, we went to the folks that we had existing relationships with and it's you know, it's a variety and we said, hey, we're getting into this, but we don't want to displace our relationships with you know, with you for that very reason because they're you know, as I said before, our focus is to make sure that we've got the client's best interest in mind, and you know our folks are generalists that we have on our team, and so if there's a particular expertise that is needed, say, and really deep restructuring knowledge, or you know just something where we don't have that expertise, we want to be able to refer it out to someone that we know and can trust. So we've maintained all of those relationships. You know that if it doesn't make sense for us, then we know exactly where to go with it. Dave: OK, no, I'm glad that you mentioned that and I'm sorry I didn't ask you about that. What else? Is there anything else that you wish we'd covered, that we didn't get to? Deanna: I think a couple of things that might be unique about us that I think allow us to really bring a high quality service to the table is that we're a group of accountants, so we definitely know accounting, but we went open book management in 2017 through a relationship with an organization called the Great Game of Business I don't know if you're familiar with it, I do. Dave: Yeah, the Springfield remand. I forget his name, jim, something. Jack Stack, jack Stack, yeah. Deanna: Yeah, and so we really we went open book management, not because our folks didn't know how to do accounting, but we wanted them to be able to have a stake in the outcome and to really feel empowered, to know that they can make an impact in our business, and it's been very successful for us. As you can imagine, it's a process-oriented kind of system and a communication system, and so our folks love process and so we follow it. What I would say letter to the law. We huddle every week. We know where we stand at any given time in our financial situation, and the benefit to that is our folks are constantly having conversations and engaging themselves and services farm where the new deals come from. So it's much more expansive than just, hey, how do you calculate gross margin or net income. So that type of conversation really allows us to even be better and bring more of that type of conversation to the table with our clients as well, and we have clients that are becoming more and more interested in that, and so we can help with that as well in terms of helping them if they want to start thinking about how they can get their team members involved. Dave: That's great. Yeah, that was going to be. My next question was whether, having done that for seven years, you're advising clients who are interested in that as well. So that's great, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. That's great. Well, as we wrap up, I have just a couple of fun questions here at the end, Some curveball questions. Are you up for some curveballs? I am, let's see so if you'd mentioned that you've got a recent graduate of UT and then another one that's there. So the question almost could be a two-part, but I'll ask it the way I normally ask it. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give? Like, with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how things turned out, is there any advice you might give to your 25 year old self? Deanna: Yes, absolutely so. I also have a 26 year old, so I have three children. So, I am tempering myself every single day on how much advice to give and how much to support. Sure, sure, I have evidence by my dinner conversation, even last night, with our oldest who is, you know, looking to make a career move. So I would say the advice I would give to myself is to I was someone who wanted, was very eager, to go to that next step. Have this planned out, have that planned out, get to this next step. And I think the advice that I would give to myself back then would be to take a little bit of time and try something new and not worry so much about if it doesn't go the way that you need it to, or think you might want it to, or you think it might should, and not be so worried about what happens if it doesn't work out, and that can translate to switching a career or maybe even moving away, or you know, for a period of time and just not being so planned out. Dave: Okay, yeah, I intentionally asked the question because it seems like we would be more amenable to advice from our future self than other people might be amenable to our insights. Deanna: Yeah, for sure, and you know, from my young career standpoint you didn't have this question, but I think you know I often get asked the question. I would say as soon as you can get a coach or a mentor, get one, even if you think you can't afford it. I would say invest in somebody who's going to really be objective, push you out of your comfort zone, you know, to someone that you can really rely on to to help you push yourself to grow. Dave: Okay, well, and maybe. Deanna: I've given you an opening there. Dave: So so now you, the next time you want to give advice, you can say hey, I was on this podcast and they asked what advice I would give to myself when I was your age and this is the advice I would have given to me. But I'm not saying you should take it, but this is if I knew then, what I knew now. This is what I would have told myself to do. So maybe I'll give you a new tack that you can take. Deanna: Yeah, I think, as long as it's not your kids. I do mentor a lot of women who are earlier in their career and trying to figure out how to navigate and manage and you know ebb and flow, the things that come with with life and so I really enjoy that and it's one of my, one of my passions, quite honestly. Dave: I think kids your own kids. Deanna: Having that separation is also the advice I would put out there. As we all know, we learn from that and I continue to learn that lesson. Dave: It's ironic. You could have an unrelated person who's virtually a carbon copy of you, and they could have a carbon copy family, yet their kids would take much more value from your advice, and vice versa it's something about you can't be a prophet in your own homeland, I guess you can't be a prophet in your own home either. Deanna: Yes, no for sure. Which is you know the benefit of like having a strong community. You know growing up and having kids and you know investing in your community because that part does help, yeah, but no that's absolutely true. Dave: All right. So the final question. This is the fun one, so I'm going to ask you a question and you just need to give your gut answer, right? So don't think too much about it. Okay, so we're both in Texas, barbecue Tex-Mex. Deanna: Oh, tex-mex hands down. Tex-mex hands down. I can eat beans and rice for every single meal. I actually love barbecue. Five or 10 minutes in it starts to get too much. No, but beans and rice, mexican, all day long. Dave: Yeah, I'm with you. Well, Dina, this was really fun. I appreciate you taking the time to join me this morning and I hope the rest of your week goes great. And again, it was a real treat and I appreciate you making the time. Deanna: No, I enjoyed it very much, thank you. Special Guest: Deanna Walker.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Andy Hein of Patent Veritas. Andy shares his impressive journey from chemical engineering and law firms to establishing his firm. He reveals how Patent Veritas helps businesses secure their intellectual property through strategic patent licensing. I learn how industries like restaurants and stock trading benefit from robust patent protection. Andy demystifies securing patent licenses through the secondary market, allowing businesses access to a vast portfolio. Tailored solutions are key to understanding clients' needs. For business owners, Andy discusses using patent licensing for long-term investment and coupling it with Private Placement Life Insurance. Andy offers valuable insights as we discuss real cases that illustrate high stakes, even in seemingly simple industries. We also touch on ethical considerations in competitive landscapes and ensure personalized services.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Andy Hein shares his background in chemical engineering and patent law, discussing his experience at Skadden Arps and Sidley Austin before founding Patent Veritas. We discuss the role of Patent Veritas in helping businesses secure their intellectual property through strategic patent licensing, particularly focusing on mitigating litigation risks from patent trolls. Andy explains how Patent Veritas acquires patents from the secondary market and licenses them to clients, allowing companies to preempt costly legal battles and enhance their IP portfolios. We delve into the benefits of understanding clients' revenue streams and technological processes to offer tailored patent protection solutions, applicable to various industries, including non-high-tech sectors like restaurant chains and stock trading operations. Andy elaborates on the concept of Private Placement Life Insurance (PPLI) for accredited investors, highlighting its dual benefits for business owners in protecting both their business and personal interests. We explore real-world cases, such as a litigation involving used car sales companies, to illustrate the high stakes of patent protection and the strategic moves companies can make to safeguard their operations. Andy discusses the ethical considerations and strategic advantages of having a robust patent portfolio to counteract competitor lawsuits, emphasizing the value of being proactive rather than reactive. We reflect on the rewarding aspects of offering personalized legal services and the importance of ensuring a good fit between clients and Patent Veritas' offerings, with a unique fee structure based on patent licenses rather than hourly rates. Andy provides insights into the competitive dynamics of the patent marketplace, explaining how companies can leverage patent licensing as a long-term investment to enhance their business value. We conclude with advice for entrepreneurs and business owners, stressing the importance of being hardworking, available, and respectful in building successful client relationships, and offering complimentary initial consultations to make the first step towards collaboration accessible.   Contact Details Email Andy (mailto:ahein@patentveritas.com) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyhein1) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Patent Veritas GUEST Andy HeinAbout Andy TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC-DISC Show. My guest today is Andy Hein, a founder of a company called Cotton. Andy has a legal background. He's an attorney and worked at some of the top law firms in the world out of law school and then he saw an opportunity and started this business and it's really fascinating. And started this business and it's really fascinating. Apparently, almost every company, every privately held company, has exposure to being sued by patent trolls or competitors that use patents as a tool to extract money out of a company, and virtually every privately held, closely held company is at risk for this. And they have a solution that addresses this, by which the company can license or have a subscription that allows them to have access to tens of thousands of patents in the company's portfolio. So you don't need to own the patents, you can just license the necessary ones to protect you and your company. Andy: Anyway. Dave: Andy's a really dynamic guy, interesting guy, interesting service, and they can also wrap it in an estate planning wrapper to make it even more appealing. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good afternoon Andy. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, good afternoon Dave. Andy: How are you doing? Dave: I'm doing great, thank you. So where are you calling in from today? Andy: You know I'm in the great town of Carmel, Indiana, so just right outside Indianapolis. Dave: I think you have more roundabouts than any city in the country, if my knowledge is correct on that. Andy: We do. I think we still have one or two stop signs and stoplights to take out, but they're getting thinner by the day. So, yeah, we have a lot of them Now are you a native of Indiana? Dave: I am, yeah, I'm originally from Crown Point, which is in Northwest corner of Indiana, and then eventually migrated our way down to central Indiana here, okay, well, my my all-time favorite basketball player is from Southern Indiana. Andy: Oh, who's that? Dave: That would be Larry. Andy: Legend, of course, yeah, no, obviously a great player, pretty famous around these parts too. Dave: Now you, you're an attorney. Where did you go to law school? Andy: So I went over to Georgetown Law Center over in DC and studied there, focusing mostly on patent law, but a bit on finance as well. Dave: And your undergraduate degree, I believe, is in engineering. Is that right? Andy: It is. Yeah, it's in chemical engineering from Trine University, which is a school just in northeast Indiana. Dave: Okay, yeah, it seems like most IP attorneys I know have a technical undergraduate degree. It seems to kind of go together. Yeah, it's like peas and carrots. Andy: You know, especially when you go to law school, they ask well, what do you study? A lot of folks study history or philosophy, and when you say engineering, they say you know you should think about being a patent attorney. And so you go into that and you think that's kind of interesting. Actually it's a lot of fun. So yeah, we all kind of end up there for the most part. Dave: Now, right after law school. Did you launch your own firm then, or did you take a different path? Andy: Yeah, no, I took a kind of a traditional path. So I started my career at a firm called Skadden Arps and I was in the Chicago office. There I worked on actually finance work, doing supporting M&A and chapter 11 bankruptcy, and then also did litigation there as well. So spent a few years there and then went over to another firm called Sidley Austin and there I concentrated just on patent litigation. Doing deals and litigation work is a lot of fun on paper but eventually you have to pick a horse to ride on. So I picked the litigation one, so just stuck with patent litigation and worked there for a number of years before setting out on my own. Dave: Yeah, and those are I mean arguably two of the top 10 law firms in the country, right by many metrics or top 20, you know very kind of traditional white shoe law firms right by many metrics or top 20, you know very kind of traditional white shoe law firms right. Andy: Yeah, they're up there for sure. So yeah, great place, great experience at both firms. It was a wonderful time there. Dave: So let's come up to the current time. So tell me about and off the top of my head, I don't even remember the name of the company. Tell me the name of the company and why you started it and what you guys do. Andy: Yeah, so our company is Patent Veritas. What we do is we help, for the most part, privately held businesses of all sizes with their IP litigation risk as well as enhancing their IP functionality within their business. It's kind of the culmination of what I've been doing over a number of years. We're very client focused and this is one where it kind of pulls together a lot of the past experience and work that I've done and my colleague Nick Stabinski and partner Nick Stabinski has done. So we formed that and the neat part about that is it addresses a real concern that some companies know about. Just actually had a conversation this morning where someone was very aware of what we're trying to do and trying to help the company with and others haven't heard of it. But it's a risk that's out there and a very real one that we're trying to help companies with. Dave: So I know what patent means. Veritas, I think is Latin, but I don't recall off the top of my head what does Veritas mean? Andy: So it's just patent truth. It just sounded pretty good Good Latin word in there, so we have to. We put it in there. Dave: That is great and it sounds like that you saw some opportunity in this space based on your prior experience or clients. Like was there a specific situation that made you say, hey, you know there needs, there's a hole in the market here and I think I'm the guy that needs to fill it. Was there anything in particular? Andy: Yeah, no, that's a great question and there was, it's. Mostly clients were coming to us. Two things we noticed over the years, and then also, more directly, folks were asking us On the patent side. Two things would happen, because what we do is the particular IP risk is against patent trolls. These are folks that buy patents. They don't make a product or otherwise, they just buy buckets of patents and they sue operating companies for licensing revenue. So we saw a number of clients getting sued that way, and patent lawsuits are expensive. I mean a cheap one. According to the AIPLA, which is an association of IP attorneys, a relatively lower cost one, or average one, is about $6 million if you're going to trial, which is, yes, it's a lot of money. We've had clients upwards of 50, spend 50 million plus on legal fees. So patent litigation is not cheap, and so a lot of the folks that are the patent trolls are also called non-practicing entities. These folks, they know that arbitrage costs right and so they'll come in, they'll buy the patents. A lot of times then they go to these companies and they ask for a license that's below the cost of the litigation and so that's their business model. So we saw that happening to a number of our clients and these are especially targeted now are oftentimes small and medium enterprises right, privately held businesses, because that's their money right, and so they're going to make a decision, perhaps different than a bigger company like a Samsung will make or otherwise, to say hey we have the money. Dave: Yeah, they may just make a more pragmatic decision, right, because they may not have $6 million to spend. Andy: Exactly so. The decision process by an Apple or Samsung, which has a much larger litigation budget, is a lot different than when you're targeting, say, privately held manufacturer or maybe a restaurant chain or something like that Very successful businesses and oftentimes making many millions of dollars, but their decision with that money is a lot different than an Apple. As to saying I'm just going to fight all this, we're just going to fight everything that comes our way which isn't really possible for these companies because they don't have that deep of pockets, and so we thought of a solution for that, which I'm sure we'll talk about soon. But it came from that. And then also in our work, we buy and sell patents. That's how we kind of got into forming Patent Veritas, and that comes into play here as well, where we see this secondary market of patent purchases and sales going through and oftentimes those patents ending up in the hands of these non-practicing entities or patent trolls, and then they go off and license that. So we see that market as well, and I think we're able to. We formed a company here to kind of make a difference for that and help folks out. Additionally, what we also saw a lot of times were our privately held clients again, successful businesses, all ranges of things but they didn't necessarily devote the resources or have the capability really in the IP space and so we also address that with Patent Veritas, which is helping companies have almost an instant patent portfolio when they work with us. That's also expensive to develop. You know it can cost several millions of dollars to develop your own patents organically and grow it, which is a great thing to do, but it takes money and time. It often takes several years as well. So our company kind of marries all that together, the experiences we've had with our privately held business clients, and put this together in a really neat service that we can provide to people. Dave: Okay, so I think, if my recollection is correct, I think it was in 1899 that the head of the patent office announced everything that could be invented had already been invented. Is this true? I think it was a moratorium on new patents for some period of time. Andy: Well, I think he wanted to. I don't know if he did, he might have, but that was definitely said and everyone always points to that as oh geez, you know, when everything is done, everything all the inventions are made, they point to this, you know. Some other interesting things were the patent office had kind of a list I think they still do of potential inventions or products that are impossible. One was heavier than air flight impossible right Until the Wright brothers came up with it. That didn't happen, so that was on the list. Another one that was on the list was I think this is funny hair growth for men. Almost impossible, right Until someone created it. So yeah, I think since 1899, we've had one or two inventions that have really helped us out, so I'm glad. Dave: Oh, that's funny. So you're saying so to kind of simplify things. The patent examiners just kind of had a cheat sheet of the 50 kinds of impossible things that some scam artist is going to try to patent and you can just automatically reject those when you just look at the impossible. Andy: That's right yeah. Dave: Well, talk to me about the patent, the secondary patent market. Andy: How large? Dave: like how many patents change hands a year, or what's the? How do you measure the size of that market? Andy: You know, honestly I'm not sure it's a private market. It's one where it's not there's metrics. But you know, this is one where companies buy and sell patents for strategic reasons. So it's not like the NYSE where you can go in and see how many million shares were traded. So it's one where it really is kind of a bespoke market. There's, I would say, several hundred thousand patents change hands maybe, or tens of thousands of patents maybe each year. It's quite a few, yeah. But it's a mixture between strategic players your Samsungs, your Apples, your Googles of the world maybe filling holes and doing deals with each other or other companies. And then it's also a combination of, say, these non-patent, non-practicing entities or patent trolls purchasing patents and that kind of makes this whole marketplace go. And it's a global market. People are buying and selling, especially you know some of the changes in Europe where they have a new patent court for the entire European Union, you know. So that made all these European patents change hands more often. So it really is one where there's no marketplace, single marketplace you go to and say I want to buy a patent. It's more of just folks brokering patents and just being part of the marketplace more of just folks brokering patents and just being part of the marketplace Gotcha. Dave: And then, in addition to the actual tens or hundreds of thousands of patents that are changing hands, you then have licensing deals, which are probably of a similar magnitude, I'm guessing. Andy: Yeah, oh, definitely. So there's a lot of licenses, yeah, and those now the patents, don't necessarily change hands, but certainly value does, right. So you'll see a lot of companies cross-license patents where they can have access to each other's portfolio, and then there's different degrees of licensing where, for example, at a university, you can license patents out on an exclusive basis. So you have every right as the licensee, almost every right except ownership of the patent itself, and so that too, even though that's a license, that's really closer to being a sale because of how many rights transfer over to the person. So, yeah, the patents are it's a little bit of a complicated business. Just because it's property, but it's intangible properties, you can do a lot of different things without actually changing hands, or you can change, actually have the property change hands. Dave: Fascinating. I wanted I'm really anxious to dive into this. I know you speak on the subject a lot. How do you want to kind of lay this out for the listeners? Andy: What kind of? Dave: sequence of events. Andy: You kind of want to go through to explain in more detail your services, your product and such yeah, we can just take it from the top of how we normally or folks will approach us because there's some, as you know, there's some interesting estate planning opportunities as well that we can put together with this. So, on the front end, with the businesses, a lot of times we'll be approached or we'll approach clients, or what have you usually referred over to? They're referred over to us and the ideal client is someone who's a privately held business, successful privately held business and it can be of a variety of. You know, a lot of times people think that the folks who need patents or use them are high tech, and that's not necessarily the case, especially in the fact of the non-patent. You know, the patent trolling side right, the patent trolls really like to have kind of simpler businesses to target, because even those simpler businesses use a lot of technology today. So our clients come to us all the way from their restaurant owners, successful restaurant chains, all the way to maybe trading operations where they're doing stock trading and they have their own software or sell software in that To, of course, you know your traditional high tech companies that are privately held, of which there's many, and then some people in between, so the metal benders of the world that you know are very. We have in the Midwest right A lot of manufacturing companies, so all those are great clients because they all use technology. Even real estate developers nowadays are using some really high-tech stuff and they're not just digging dirt and building houses. So really any of those clients are interesting folks to talk to and could use our services. So what we do is we'll sit down with them, talk about what we do, like we're doing, and then also just understand some of the risks they face, namely like what do you do to make money? How do you earn income? So we figure that out, because that's where the patent trolls are going to target. Then what we'll be able to do is match up. We have patents and then we can also purchase patents in the secondary market if we don't have the right ones for them. And then for the most part we'll figure that out and then we'll right size the license amount to see, okay, how many services of ours can we really help? What can we do? And then we'll get a patent license over to them, or the license or the patents from us. Because what we do is I didn't even mention this, I skipped ahead but we go in the marketplace, our marketplace that we're in every day, and we see these patents that are there that might be good patent, troll patents or targets, and we'll buy them before the trolls do. And then we own those patents, we put them essentially can think of in a bucket and then we license those out to our clients. So we have access whether we own them or have access to many tens of thousands of patents that can work for the client's purposes. So we do that client gets a license to this, and the longer they subscribe with us, the better. The value is because we'll charge a flat fee and we're going out there and buying patents all over the place for them. Also, what we'll do is kind of understand, okay, what are the risks that you face from competitors and what are some of your goals in the IP space. Like, do you have a patent portfolio? Do you want one? Should we have one? And then we can also use our own patents to provide that kind of starting point for them if they want to build their own portfolio or if they're sued by a competitor, which happens a lot, which is one of the reasons why we formed Patent Veritas, because we can instantly help them out and say hey, we have the following three or four patents you should probably use. You can sue the competitor, because the worst thing you can have is to be sued for patent litigation and not have a patent to sue back to somebody. They have a gun, you don't? That's a pretty bad fight and we get called a lot of times Again. One of the impetus, one of the reasons we started Patent Veritas we were getting calls from people to say hey, we have a patent lawsuit against us. I don't have any patents. Usually the lawyers would call us and say can you get us patents quickly? How fast do you need them, like in a day or two? Well, that's not going to happen. It takes a while to get these patents, to purchase the right ones. So now we can have these patents available in case they're sued by a competitor, and that really helps out a case. Dave: So that's on the front end. I was going to ask you, so your clients, are they licensing, like your whole portfolio of patents or just certain patents? How do you typically do that? Andy: Yeah, just the ones that are going to be of value to them. So we'll have groups of patents that are of value to almost any companies. I call them process workflow patents. So almost every business has some sort of process workflow that they go through, and it usually involves software. These are the most typical ones, but that's almost every company everything from a restaurant where you're purchasing you know you don't think about it, but if you order from a restaurant online on your phone, there's a process workflow that goes from start to finish, or even when you sit down. A lot of times restaurants are automated, especially some of the bigger, not necessarily publicly changed, but some of the better, even kind of privately held chained restaurants. They're going to have a process workflow from when you sit down, you order, you do this and there's going to be software and automation involved in that. So those sorts of patents, generally everybody should probably have a license to, and we're on the lookout for those all the time, because those are prime patent troll patents. So we want to buy those and at the same time then there's going to be some that are a little more bespoke to their industry, right. So if you're in the manufacturing business, you're going to have a certain need of different patents versus if you do, say, crypto trading, right, you're going to have a different set of patents that are more crypto specific. The metal benders of the world, the manufacturers of the world, are going to be over here. They're going to have a different group of patents, so we'll include those as appropriate. Or, if you're a restaurant, you're going to have different online ordering patents that are probably very relevant to your business, not so much to the crypto guys. So that's how we usually do that and kind of right size, which ones are going to work best for who? Dave: And you mentioned the scenario that an attorney representing a defendant will call you saying, hey, my client needs some patents. Can you help us out? It seems like, from what I know about litigation, it seems like it's almost too late by then. Is that true? Is it better, even if it was the day before they were sued, if they had the license in place? Yeah, oh yeah. Andy: Whenever, if you're the defendant and you're calling us looking for patents, it's on the late side and that's tough to get in place. We can do it, but it's going to take a while and that's not the position you want to be in, because the case isn't going to be stayed just because you don't have any defenses. It's going to keep moving. In fact, the plaintiff is going to be really happy. The adversary is happy that you don't have patents and to move that case along quickly because it's going to force you into a settlement. That's not very favorable. So yeah, so that's why we always try and get the word out, try and talk with people, like we're doing here, like, hey, guys, we can offer this, let's talk now, as opposed to when you're sued by a patent troll or you're sued by a competitor. Let's talk now and get this in place and let's get that access to the IP in place now. Dave: Okay, so let me just recap to make sure I have it. So you're having proactive conversations with these privately held companies and you're kind of assessing their current IP portfolio and then you're deciding if it should be supplemented with some patents licenses to patents that you own and then you kind of get them set up as a client to patents that you own. And then you kind of get them set up as a client and then over time you'll acquire more patents that they may just automatically benefit from. And then if they then do get sued, they have a really strong defense because they have access to all of the licenses or all the patents that they've licensed from you. So now, all of a sudden, instead of coming back saying, hey, you've infringed on the plaintiff's patent, they can say no, we haven't, and in fact we actually have intellectual property that protects what we're doing. Is that kind of the idea? Andy: Yeah. Well, it's even more than that they can use the patents to sue the other party. It's not so much it protects what they're doing, it's more of hey. They're going to say. The plaintiff is going to say, hey, you're using my patent. Look at this, You're manufacturing tires a certain way. That's fine. What they're going to say is now our client is going to be able to say fine, but we have five other patents that you're using right now, so we're going to sue you back, so we can either go through with this. We can either go through with this whole lawsuit and I'm probably going to make more money off this than you are or we can resolve this suit, Because the goal is to actually bring the suit to a close as quickly as possible for our client. And by doing that by having your own weapons, you can do that. Dave: Now with a patent troll, you won't have as much of an offensive approach. Right, that's really more if it's a competitor suing you. Andy: That's correct. Yeah, if it's a competitor, you have that. If it's a patent troll, the goal here is to try and starve the trolls of as many patents as possible and minimize that risk. So it's a double part that we're able to provide for that. Dave: Okay, okay, all right. Well, let's move on to kind of the next part of the process or the business. Andy: Yeah, no, I mentioned some really neat tax and estate planning opportunities here as well. So the way the business is structured is that, if we're able to allow our clients, this is kind of a longer term solution for them with their IP side, and that allows us to do some really neat things as well, because the most common, most popular thing is for us to actually then look at insurance and insuring our deal, if you will, and that is. There's a couple of different ways to do it and it really depends on the client's own estate planning. A lot of the folks that we work with are pretty well-off folks, pretty affluent folks from their businesses, but the simplest thing would be that we could take out a life insurance policy on the business owner who's of the company, and the reason we want to do that is because we want to make sure our deal goes through. So a lot of clients are going to sign a multi-year deal, three five-year deals, ideally even longer. We'll have you as a client as long as you want, but something in that order and then we're able to take out a policy and purchase a policy where we pay the premiums, and this is a whole life policy, and so the cash value is going to accumulate in that as we pay those premiums, and then if at a certain time the client decides to end the relationship with us, we're able to transfer that policy over to them in an efficient way however that works for them. Again, that's kind of bespoke to the particular client, but we can move that policy over to them. So the advantage is twofold. Now is that by working with us, their business is getting access to all these different patents, access to our portfolio able to counterclaim against adversaries if they're threatened or sued threatened or sued and at the same time now we can help them out with a life insurance policy where they name the beneficiaries, they do those sorts of things and then ultimately that policy will be sent over to them when our relationship with us ends. And so now they have a hopefully fully paid up whole life policy with cash value that they can use for whatever purpose they want. So it's a really neat way that it's structured. There's some other types of insurance as well. If folks qualify for that, it's called private placement life insurance, and with private placement life insurance that's for accredited investors. But that's another possibility where we can work with them via PPLI, or some of our clients have PPLI it's private placement life insurance is called PPLI. They have that in place already and so we can do something similar with that slightly different structure for our backend. But again, if it's already set up or if they want to set that up, that's a different form of life insurance and it really depends on what the client. What's best for the client as to their particular situation. But the neat part about that is is that they get a double. You know, they get both benefits, not just the. Their business gets the benefit and then they get the benefit as well. Personally for some of these in life insurance. So it's a neat system. We're able to work with that and to offer our clients. Dave: Okay. So let me just let me check for understanding there. So the client signs some, some contract with you, you know you, for some period of time three, five more years to basically have a subscription to the various bespoke combination of patents that they are licensing Because of that contractual relationship and the receivable that your company has, that gives you an insurable interest, because if the owner of that business were to die suddenly, that might jeopardize the ongoing nature of the business, which might jeopardize your ability to collect on this long-term contract, right? So that's what creates the insurable interest. And then, in theory, every client wants your product. They just maybe don't want to pay for it. Well, and it's not just your product, it's a lot of things, right? Most people want lots of stuff, they just don't want to pay for it. And so by using this structure, by adding the additional layer of the life insurance, it makes it a more attractive value proposition for them, and not only in the short run, but even in the long run. Andy: That does no well, said Absolutely, because, yeah, this is an extra benefit from working with us. It's not just, you know, especially privately held businesses, right, it's again, this is those owners money, right, and they're working hard for that. So they may want this service, but they say, like you said, geez, this is kind of expensive, because patent licenses are not cheap. There's several hundreds of thousands of dollars often. So this is a way, though, to provide an additional incentive for working with us over the long haul. Right, making a commitment with us will help make a commitment with you as well and provide a real benefit to you and your family from working with us, in addition to a client for the long term. And that's where the value can really accumulate for the business as well, because each year, we're going out, we're buying, we're bird dogging more patents, we're buying more patents, so that bucket, so to speak, just keeps getting bigger for that price. So it's a great thing for their business too, because the longer you work with us, the more patents you're going to have a license to, and the more value you're going to realize for your license, the more patents you're going to have a license to and the more value you're going to realize for your license. Dave: How do you decide, like, let's look at a hypothetical industry that has 10 players in it? Let's say it's some niche industry and there's 10 companies that all manufacture something similar? Well, obviously you can't go sell your solution to all 10 of the companies. I mean, I guess you could. It would at least protect all of them from the patent trolls, right? Give them any protection from one another. How do you? What's your strategy there? Is it kind of a once you know? In a situation like this, once you have one client in this space, do you not take on any more? Or by yeah, and I guess it depends on which risks they're trying to ensure. If it's the patent troll risk, in theory the 10 of them are all better off teaming up, if you will, to combine their resources, and it would be more cost-effective for you to license the same group of patents 10 times or sell 10 subscriptions instead of just one. Tell me about how you strategically look at that situation. Andy: Yeah, situations like that I mean you have to be careful on because you don't want to have where you know you start having kind of clients suing each other and both of them coming to you for patents to use against each other. So it's a great point made and we assess that on kind of a case by case basis. But it really is looking out for kind of a conflict of interest. We haven't had that happen, but if it is, we would look at that and say, okay, we'd be careful about what rights each party would have. Like you said, if they all want patent troll protection, that's not as big of a deal. But if folks want to have that access as well to the patent portfolio, now we really need to look at it and say, okay, what could happen if these guys sue each other and what should we do? And the right answer there is to not take conflicting positions. That's a pretty straightforward thing. Dave: Well, that's another reason. When you're talking to a potential client in this hypothetical scenario of 10 players in this industry, the fact that you're talking to one of them implies you don't have the other nine as a client. And if they say no to you in the back of their mind they have to be thinking well, you know who are they going to call next. Right, yeah no, that's. Andy: Yeah, we've had something not exactly similar but like that happened in other, and that's right. You know it's a Coke or Pepsi thing, so if Coke says no, we go to Pepsi, then Coke knows that. Well geez, that wasn't maybe the best thing. So yeah, that's absolutely right. It's a little incentive, I guess, for the client who we're talking to to sign up for us, in addition to all the benefits we just talked about. Maybe they don't want to see we'll be behind the scenes and all of a sudden get whacked over the head with some patents. That's never a fun day, sure. Dave: So can you for the listeners. I find that, like case studies, examples are really helpful to help learn. Do you have like an example or two you could give us and I'm sure you'll? You know they'll be anonymous, but maybe just an example of you know of maybe somebody who was a client who got sued and the outcome because of this? Or could you give us some kind of examples or a blended example of several things, a hypothetical, whatever you're most comfortable with? Andy: Yeah, we can do a couple different ones. I mean, we haven't had yet where a client was sued and had to access the portfolio. We haven't had that yet, but we have had in the past where we will get. As I mentioned, folks are sued, they don't have patents, their adversary does, and this was in an area where you wouldn't even think of as being like there's patents on this. Car sales, okay, used car sales, oh wow. No one thinks of this like that. But there is actually. There are patents out there. I know for a fact there are patents out there in the used car sales market at reaching pricing and reaching distribution and how to optimize inventory, all that. Those are real patents and they were issued by the United States government. And we were in the middle of that case won't name parties but where two competitors used car salespeople, big ones, very large companies, both privately held one sued the other. Not surprisingly, we got a phone call from their attorney and they said listen, we have a bit of a situation on our hands. These two companies are suing each other. Their competitor just sued them. They have a patent that pretty much covers 100% of their revenue, which is never a good position to be in, because that means that all of your businesses is at risk. We need patents. We need them now. We were able to help them and we were able to locate and find used car patents which was a great win. And they were very happy and were able to do that in a way that, in a timely fashion. However, that was a fire drill that I don't ever want to go through again and really did set this whole business of patent veritas in motion. One of the reasons because Nick and I Nick Stabinski and I looked at each other and thought there has to be a better way than this and so we formed this. So that's a great case study. Because, again, if I were to tell you before Dave, hey, a great case study. Because, again, if I were to tell you before Dave, hey, there's patents on used car sales, you'd think I'm crazy. But there is, and there's a lot of them out there. So that's a great example of that. And then, in terms of other folks just clients of signing up, how that works, sure, there's one. I'll give a more traditional role. They do they sell software, partially as a reseller of software and partially their own, and they have different process workflows that they have. They realize the value. I talked with these folks. They realize the value of our services and, fairly straightforward, just what I mentioned, which is you look, we sit down and say how do you earn your revenue, how do you make your money, what does your workflow look like? And you get a license in place relatively quickly. That only takes a license after we understand how the business works. It really only takes if the client's ready a day. It's very simple to have that we have, you know, our licenses we like to use. It's very simple to put one of these up and running, and so that was great. And then they also realized the value of the life insurance. And now that of course takes a little longer but the two can be done separately. We can get the license in place first and then let the process play out for the life insurance piece, because of course there's some underwriting for our client there personally to do and I should mention, there's at the same time depending on the carrier and provider. You know cause. Sometimes the question is well, what if I can't get insurance? Excuse me, there's actually ways, there's actually carriers that you can insure different groups and the like and still receive the benefit of some of those insurance things like cash value and the like that they might care about. You don't get all the benefits, but you can get some of the value still out of it. So you know, that wasn't this instance, the folks are going through the underwriting, no problem, but that's out there. So that's a fairly straightforward situation. Dave: Now, you're probably not going to like this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway, In this hypothetical example of the 10 companies in this one niche, and you're talking to one of them and they think might this be a strategy for me to weaken my other nine competitors? Might I be a little patent trollish, like, but this is at least a legitimate operating company and the patents that we would be seeking to enforce, I mean, actually revolve around our business. They're not the non. What did you call the patent trolls? Non-operating entities. Andy: Yeah, non-practicing entities Sure. Dave: So if somebody did that and let's just say they didn't even have the conversation, or a year into it, this idea suddenly strikes them and they get an aggressive attorney and they start suing these other folks. Is that a problem on your end, or whether they use their service offensively or defensively? Are you neutral to? Andy: that. So if they're a client and they come to us and say, hey, we want to use the patents offensively, we'd have to look at it and really think it might be best to even just sell them the patents at that point. So there's different ways. Yeah, we would talk with the client and understand their goals as to why they need it or otherwise, because, again, that's a competitive position. You know, it's obviously like in the example I gave with used car sales. The one company felt strong enough that they wanted to sue another used car sales company because maybe, it's you know, they're gaining market share or a whole bunch of reasons why companies might use patents, right. So you know, that's really a conversation we'd have to have with the client to understand is this the best way? Is this what you need for your goals? And then we'll kind of help them out as best as possible. Dave: Yeah, and especially with the Department of Labor. I think it was the Department of Labor that basically invalidated non-competes. So it could be, if this competitor is very good at stealing their top car sales people and they can't really use a non-compete to stop that any longer, maybe this would be another way to shut that off. Andy: Yeah, it could. I mean, these are kind of case-by-case examples that you want to really talk with the client. But yeah, that's correct. Especially it would be one where maybe they've stolen the IP that you have, they're implementing it in their system or whatever. Then you know, you really that's something that you, that's what patents are for, right, that's what we're here for. So we want to have that conversation, we want to talk with them and work with them to help our clients. Dave: What do you enjoy most about what you're doing now with Patent Veritas and your role within the company? What do you enjoy most? Andy: and a lot of money. And it's neat to see a lot of these folks grew the business from the ground up. Most of our clients are so. They started their businesses and have grown it the entire time, and in a whole bunch, like I said, everything from restaurants all the way to really complicated software that just boggles the mind when you look at it. But every single person is interesting because they all have some insight into their work that really has allowed them to be successful. And it's neat working with people like that. It's really a privilege. It's really fun because you learn something and you say why didn't I think of that? But then we're able to help them out and really help their business, protect their business with this and then help them personally as well, right With some of their estate planning, their tax and estate planning, with some of these insurance needs. So it's pretty cool to combine all that together. And it's never a dull day On the patent side, even you know, when we're out there in the market bird dogging and trying to buy patents, it's always interesting because you know you're always learning something off the patents themselves too. You get to read through those and kind of see is this something that's going to work for us, is it not? And you know, have the team kind of weigh in on all that, and that's a lot of fun too. So it's a really neat. It's a really neat business. It's every day is a little different. Every company definitely is a little different and every client's a little different, so it's always kind of cool. There's no, it's not a cookie cutter business where every day we're just like, okay, I mean, we have a nice workflow to get folks signed up, but it's always interesting to meet them and to learn more about what they do, like everything from the used car sales guys to, you know, the more traditional software folks and guys that manufacture, you know, boats. Dave: So it's kind of cool to just see like I can appreciate it, because that's really what I love about my role. You know, with my companies I'm working with the same type of clients. You are Mine just are in a niche where they export at least a portion of their product, and I love working with those folks because you know they're the lifeblood of our economy. You know there's just a, they're dynamic, you know ambitious, they're visionaries, they're successful. I mean just. You know there's a saying that you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, and I can think of no better group of five people to spend the most time with than successful entrepreneurs. So I love that as well. Andy: It really is the best. I mean people I tell other, my friends or whatever, and I'm like it's pretty, it's just pretty cool, it's inspiring, like you said, just to be around these folks and to and then be able to help them. It's kind of neat Like hey, we're able to help your business just a little bit be more successful. That's pretty cool, it's a real privilege. Dave: Sure, Okay. So then that's the one side, that's the part you like some of the things your clients tell you. You know, like, once they become a client, you know they've started working with you. What are the things they tell you that they say that they really like working with your firm? What do they tell you makes your firm special and unique? Andy: You know, I we've been told a couple of different things. One is we're very, we're very hardworking. We're always working on their behalf, always going hard for them. That's always good, available. You know, we're very available to call folks like that and punctual, and also just actually had a nice award and they said you know, we treat people with respect and so it's. I think that's a big deal nowadays especially, so that's a wonderful thing. So folks like that as well, just I guess it's just we're hardworking, put our nose down for them and treat the folks with respect and be there for them. I think that's what I've heard. Dave: So that's great. That is great. Well, as we wrap up, I have three more questions. One is if somebody wants to reach out to you to explore the services, what's the best way for them to reach you? Linkedin, call you, email you. Andy: You know, email is always good, or a phone call, or LinkedIn, any of those. Dave: So I'll give you all three, yeah, the LinkedIn we'll put in the show notes so they'll have access to that. So what's the email? Andy: Sure, it's ahin ahein@patentveritas.com P-A-T-E-N-T-V-E-R-I-T-A-S.com, and then you can also phone. If you're so inclined to give a call, you can do so. It's oh geez, I just blanked that number because I don't call my own number. Dave: I know. Andy: But I'll give you another one 312-371-6578 is a direct number for me, so you can call that as well. Dave: It's kind of funny. I don't call myself, so I hear you Okay. Well, that's one of the three questions. The second one is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had? Andy: No, I think we covered a lot of information, so this is great. I'm sure I'll think about that an hour from now, but no. I think it's good Okay. Dave: Well, the last one. It's kind of a fun one and it's a question you may be don't get asked every day. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25-year-old self, when you were graduating from law school, what advice might you give to yourself? Andy: Wow, those are always that's tough to look back. I'd say you know it's going to. It all works out It'll work out Some things that happen to you. You don't realize why they do, but then later on, looking back, you understand that needed to happen. So some really good things happen later. Dave: So it works out and just keep moving forward, I and Well, that sounds like great advice for anybody, not just your 25 year old self. So that is great. Well, andy, I and Well, that sounds like great advice for anybody, not just your 25 year old self. So that is great. Well, andy I, this has really been fun and I've learned a lot and I think our listeners and my clients could really benefit from from knowing your company. Oh, I guess. The one other question so if somebody is interested in your service, you know you can take the law you're out of the law firm, but can you take the law firm out of the attorney? Does the clock start ticking, you know, the moment they call you, or how does your process work there? Do you have an introductory conversation? That's complimentary, or what's your? Andy: We don't. I mean we don't charge by the hour or anything like that. So all of this is the upfront work is done, just upfront work, just to see. Is this a good client? Is this a the person we're talking with? Would this be a good client, right? Would we be a good fit for them? Are we going to be able to provide the value that I just talked about and we just talked about? Are we going to be able to provide that value for you? Occasionally, the answer is no, because the business might not support it, and so that's simple. But no, our fees come from the patent license. That's how we make our money, and so we want to make sure that this is the right person that we're working with, because the right person. We can provide value to that person, we can actually add to their business. So there's no hourly rate, there's no anything that you know just to understand their business and otherwise have plenty of conversations, and if we're not the good fit, we'll tell you it's not going to be good for anybody. So we let folks know. Dave: That is great. Well, andy, again, thank you so much for your time. This has really been fun and you know, being from the Midwest myself, I'm from another one of those. I states Iowa. I always joke that, even though I've been in Texas for 40 years, I always joke. People in the West or the South, they all think Iowa, idaho, ohio and Indiana are the same place. All those states that start with a vowel end with a vowel somewhere up in the Midwest. They think they're all like the same place. Andy: Yeah, I've been asked if I like to ski in Colorado before, even though it's about a 12-hour drive, which the answer is yes, but I don't get there too often Understood. Dave: Well, hey, thanks again, Andy, and I hope you have a great afternoon. Andy: Cool Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me, really appreciate it. Special Guest: Andy Hein.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Jane Howze, founder and managing director of executive search firm Alexander Group. Jane shares her remarkable transition from commercial lending and law into this male-dominated industry. Her insight into culture, growth, and talent acquisition provided invaluable counsel for aspiring leaders. We explore nuanced career shifts and hiring new teams, emphasizing integrity's strategic importance. Jane highlights fact-checking credentials for ethics and vetting, referencing a shocking case of credential fabrication. Our conversation sheds light on work evolutions, from mentorship changes to communication innovations over the years.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jane Howze shares her career transition from a commercial lending officer and lawyer to the founder and managing director of the Alexander Group, a top retained executive search firm. We discuss the early challenges Jane faced in a male-dominated industry and her experiences at Korn Ferry, emphasizing her success in executive search. Jane and I reminisce about shared history at Korn Ferry, including nostalgic and entertaining stories from the early days of our careers. li>Jane emphasizes the importance of integrity during career transitions, particularly when handling professional references and avoiding misrepresentation. We touch on the strategic advantages of honesty and the repercussions of fabricating qualifications, as highlighted by a CEO's false claim of a computer science degree. The episode covers the evolution of workplace dynamics, mentorship, and the practical advice Jane offers for aspiring paid board members. Crazy industry tales are recounted, such as an adventure with a $700 car in LA and setting realistic client expectations in executive search scenarios. Jane provides insights into networking and career strategy, especially relevant during the Great Resignation and for those aiming for public company board positions. We explore Dave's innovative client communication strategies and the impact of networking, as well as the significance of crafting a board-specific resume. The episode concludes with a light-hearted exchange about "tours of duty" within a firm, comparing it to conscription, and reflects on the demanding but rewarding nature of our work experiences. Contact Details Email (jhowze@thealexandergroup.com) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhowze1950/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About The Alexander Group GUEST Jane HowzeAbout Jane TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today was a very special guest. Jane Howes is the founder and managing director of one of the world's top retained executive search firms, the Alexander Group. Jane was actually my boss two different times about 25 years ago. As we talked about on the episode, she was both the greatest boss I'd ever had and my least favorite boss I ever had, sometimes in the same day. Jane has a wealth of knowledge on all aspects of culture building all aspects of culture building, firm building, growing a firm, picking the right people. We also took some stories down memory lane back from the days we worked together and when the firm was very young. This episode has a lot of great information for any executive or business owner who has any hiring responsibilities. Finally, if you've ever considered becoming a board member, jane has some great insights and tips on how to start your career as a paid board member. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Jane, welcome to the podcast. Jane: Well, Dave, it's wonderful to be with you. Dave: This is so. I was so excited for this, so I think I've told you this before. Jane, you were my all-time favorite boss and my least favorite boss, sometimes in the same day. Jane: And probably sometimes within 10 minutes of each other right. Dave: Perhaps, but you're the only boss I ever had twice. So I had left. I was gone a couple of years and then I was in a spot where I needed some contract work. This was before Uber, so I couldn't just go start driving my car around and you all were gracious enough to have me come back and it was wonderful. But I just want to thank you for all the opportunities you've given me, all that you've taught me. I've learned. I learned so much about business, communication, ethics, client service, so that served me the rest of my career. So thank you, jane. Jane: Dave, when you came back the second time, I was like our ship has come in. Dave Spray is back for more punishment, more reward, and I just feel really honored that our paths have crossed, because you could have been a great, you were a great recruiter, could have and still could. Dave, You're the best. Dave: Well, that's very nice of you to say so. Yeah, I enjoyed a lot of my time at the firm, so where are you calling in from today? Jane: I am in our Houston office today. As you know, we have offices in California, new York and DC. As you know, we have offices in California, new York and DC, but I will work out of Houston until it gets too impossibly hot to work out of Houston, as you know, and we'll head west. Excellent, well, that sounds great. Dave: Now, are you a native Houstonian? Are you one of those rare people born here that lives here? Jane: No, what's the saying? I got here as soon as I could, but I am from Birmingham Alabama and went to college in Memphis, tennessee, and my roommate from college was Houstonian and back in the day, you know, the Galleria had just been built and Houston was just this huge boomtown and I was glad to come here back in the infancy almost. Dave: Wow, and what did you do for work when you got here? Jane: I worked as. Are your listeners mainly in Houston, or are they scattered all over? They're all over the country in Houston or are they scattered all over? They're all over the country. Yeah Well, I worked for the largest bank in Houston and I was a commercial lending officer and attended law school at night. And then the story goes I practiced law and I left Houston and went to California and practiced law and then came back. So you know, kind of roads lead back to Houston. Dave: Ultimately, Okay, and then what? Did you just like have a dream or a vision or something that you needed to leave the law business and get into executive search? What prompted that? Jane: Well, a lot of practicing law, as I'm sure your listeners know, a lot of it is very compliance oriented, very regulatory oriented, and I'm not a regulatory kind of person. And I had gone from being a commercial loan officer, where my job was to deal with people all day, to being stuck in a law library reading compliance regulations. Oh my goodness, this is not good, this is not my personality. And read an article in Fortune magazine about Korn Ferry, the largest executive search firm in the world, and it was like the proverbial bolt of lightning went off. Dave and I was oh my gosh, I would be fabulous at this. I need to go work for Korn Ferry. And they had an opening back in Houston. So I left the practice of law in California and joined Korn Ferry in Houston. Dave: Wow, and you were, and I'm guessing that you were one of many women at the firm. I'm sure, right, this was the 80s executive search. Jane: Let's see there were 200 partners and two women, and the minorities were all in the Hong Kong office. Dave: Okay, I mean diversity was achieved, but there were like six men in the Hong Kong office. Jane: Okay, I mean diversity was achieved, but there were like six men in the Hong Kong office and that is not a knock on Korn Ferry that the executive search business was oh, we want to give a CEO search to somebody we've served in the military with, or somebody that we go hunting with, or somebody on our bowling, you know that kind of thing, and women just weren't in that place then. So it was definitely an early time and a good time to get into executive search. In retrospect at the time it seemed a little challenging. Dave: And you. So how did it go, did you? Was it all you hoped it would be? Jane: You know, the minute I started recruiting I was happy I knew I had found my calling. Before I got into search, I had always been one of the people that said I'd love to introduce you to this person, I'd love to fix you up with this person, and so I finally got in a position that you got paid for it which is great by two partners from KPMG who wanted to do recruiting of C-suite positions for their KP clients, and K wouldn't let them do it. So they formed Korn Ferry, and so I was lucky. It was kind of the early days of Korn Ferry they were maybe 15 years old by the time I joined them and global, so it was a really great move to learn the search business. Dave: You weren't there too long, right Before you felt the need to unfurl your own wings. Jane: Yes, that is true. I was wow. There are not many women partners here and I know I'm good at this and I know I can be successful at this. So, dave, I hooked up with another woman at Corn Ferry and the other big search firm is Russell Reynolds and we were like, well, let's start our own search firm, and I don't know that I would have done it by myself. But we started, really got going in 19, which is 40 years ago now. I feel like I'm the oldest living person alive still doing it. But we started and back then you didn't have the internet to do research and our first client was Grant Thornton the public accounting firm and the number two person at Grant met us and we went walking in their offices and there were no women audit partners then, or tax partners, and we went strolling in and he goes. Well, I believe in you all and I want you to help me build the firm. I'm going to do acquisitions, I'm going to do partner searches, I'm going to do campus recruiting, and we rode along for over 50 searches and practice acquisitions in our first years, which made it really a great foundation upon which to build. Dave: Oh, that's awesome. That is awesome, and that's been 40 years ago. Jane: Yeah, Dave, I probably tried to recruit you back in the days you were at Arthur Anderson. You were probably one of my recruits, even not knowing it. Dave: Yeah, you never know, you never know. And one of the is that when you started, the billing by the hour approach, or did that come later. Did you do that from the beginning? Jane: We started because, having been with a law firm where you're basically selling your time, we thought, well, we're going to be a different kind of search firm, we're going to bill by the hour. And it proved to be a great thing. And, dave, we were so cheap that people would go, you'll do, you'll take over all our campus recruiting for $50 an hour. And we were like, oh great, well, here's 10 colleges we don't want to go. You guys go, just do our recruiting for probably 10, 12, 13 years, which made it challenging because not everybody wants to fill out timesheets to the 10th of an hour, which we were. Dave: Yeah, no, but I remember when we would talk to potential clients, that was part of the pitch and the fact that they could do we could do all a card search for them. It's wrong as the source candidates, you know, we would just do that. And the other thing I loved was the independence that gave, because I know there were times that right late in the search we had three finalists and they would say, hey, we identified somebody on our own, can we throw them into the mix? And of course we were very receptive because we were just paid by the hour, like we didn't care. Whereas I think a lot of other firms, especially if there was a success fee component you know, would be very resistant to that, so I always thought that was great. What caused you to move away from that? Jane: Just the cumbers of it or just the greater tendency to do fixed. But you know, we started out doing lower level positions and as we built our reputation we were, frankly, we were leaving. Frankly we were leaving. We weren't great timekeepers and we kind of thought, well, let's still provide a win for our clients Because the big search firms you are obligated to pay the fee. Even if they find their own candidate, you're obligated to pay the fee. So what we decided was we will do a fixed fee. We will tell the client at the beginning of the search this is what your fee is. So it's not really tied to the compensation but the complexity of the search. So, for example, if we were doing a search in Fargo, north Dakota, in December, that might be a harder search. You know, with the pain in the bottom 10% of compensation ranges, that might be a harder search than doing a search in December in Florida, for example, or with the time. So we just pivoted I think it was in 2001 that we'll give you a fixed fee for the search, but it will be less usually than a third of total comp. So even if you put your own candidate into the process, you're still paying for it, but you're paying for a process, not a candidate. So we still had a competitive advantage. And it's interesting. Here we are today, in 2024, and some of the other search firms are now doing what we do. Some of our biggest competitors are going. Well, we'll give you a fixed fee if the Alexander Group's giving you a fixed fee. So it's interesting how it's turned out. Dave: But you were a disruptor in a number of ways in the industry. Jane: I mean it didn't seem like it at the time but now that I see other firms doing the same thing to try and compete effectively, they don't want to. They'd rather just get a third. But one of the things we tell our clients when they retain us is for your budgeting purposes, you're going to know how much the fee is and we'll have no reason to present the most expensive candidates because our fee is already in your budget and we're just going to be on your side of the table trying to find the best person at the most cost-effective salary compensation package. So I think it's a win and it's something that has worked for the clients. And you know the thing that and I know you know this we said it when you were there and we still say it 85% of our business every year is the same people and we're really proud of that because most search firms their repeat business is 6%. And why is that? And you know we laugh and say, well, we have an unstable product. You know and you know there's so many things that can go wrong when you're dealing with people, but we try and provide very I want to say a really strong relationship focus. I mean I tell clients. I don't want to just see you one time. We want a long-term relationship with you and that's really important to us and I think it makes a difference and I think the clients feel like we really care about being part of their team and that's really important to us. Dave: Yeah, that's great and I did experience that, and life's just more fun when you have happy repeat customers and clients Instead of people you try to squeeze for every last dollar for one time transaction. Jane: And you're well. I hope we don't have to see each other again. Right, you know it's like no, we want to be around for the long haul and I know you know this because but our first client from Grant Thornton, who's now 88 years old, is still a friend and a client and a mentor of the firm and we wouldn't really have it any other way. That means a lot to us. Dave: You know, one of the most valuable lessons you taught me was when I went into your office after I worked there about a year and a half and I just said, jane, I don't think this is for me and I don't know what I'm going to do, but I just want to set expectations. And you said hey, as long as you continue to do good work, you can stay. You know, as long as you want, right, I mean, just keep doing good work. And then the other thing you told me do you remember what you told me? You said, and it was very, it was good advice, but it was also clever on your end too. What did you tell me? Jane: I told you, no one will remember the job that you did, but everyone will remember how you leave. Dave: Yep, yep, that's so true and it's such simple advice, right? Because you work someplace for years and then all you really have to do to even make up for mistakes you made is just end on a really high note, right, you could have been a average employee, but just end on a high note and they'll all say, oh yeah, that change, she was great. She was great. We loved having her around. Jane: No, I remember that Because I mean I tell people I was not the best lawyer in the world, but I left, left. Like how do I transition my clients? How do I help train the new person? Can I be available after I'm gone? If I need to come in on a Saturday to help out? And I tell people when I make speeches no one will. You could be really bad at your job, but you can be a good, a great departing employee if you aren't a current employee. And that is just so true. And you know today, you never know when you're going to need a reference. Today, with everything so transparent, even if you don't give somebody as a reference, people will look on LinkedIn and say, oh well, I'm going to call this person and see how Betty was as an employee. So you're going to be found out, good or bad. So you might as well be the best ex-employee you can possibly be. Dave: I love it. Yeah, I know one of the things we did when I was with the team was we would do reference checks, and I think we would oftentimes do them even before the offer was extended. I forget. I think we did it both ways. Sometimes we did it subject to reference checks, sometimes we did the references first and I was always surprised. Every so often you'd find out people lied on their resume or exaggerated. But I imagine with social media and such, that's probably all gone away, right, nobody tries to get away with that anymore, I suppose do they? Jane: You know, dave, it's really interesting. Somebody asked me the other day what surprises you the most. That happens today, that happened 20 years ago. And the answer is exactly as you say. People still try and fudge. They'll say, well, I received an MBA when they did the coursework but didn't write the final paper. Or they'll be credit short of a college degree. Just last month we weren't at the final stages. But we try and check educational background and someone had on their resume they had on their LinkedIn received a bachelor's degree. And we check and there's no bachelor's degree. And they say, oh well, but I was only four hours short and I go. But four hours short does not a degree make, and I'm always surprised that. And people will have maybe a year gap where they're unemployed. And it's okay with COVID and all the changes that we have all gone through as a country, as a business community, it's okay that you have gaps, but it's not okay to misrepresent the gaps and sometimes you'll have people go. Oh well, you know, it was during COVID, I'll just kind of fudge it a little bit. And you're always going to be found out almost every single time, and I'm always surprised that people still do it, though, but even at the highest levels, dave, they still do it Like even like at the C-suite level, you mean. Yeah, at the C-suite level. You know, I wrote an article as a commentator for MSNBC 10 years ago because the CEO of, I think, hp said he had a degree in computer science, but it was a degree in history, you know, which is a pretty big difference. And I wrote an article saying and this was even before the proliferation of social media 10 years ago and I said you will be found out. This guy did, and it was very public and it was he got fired from H. It was a big deal and I was like do not let it stand. If you fudged, go fix it, fess up. Dave: The irony was, if he was, you know, at that level, he probably had graduated at least 25 years earlier. So the irony was his degree had no nothing to do with his current level. Yeah, nobody cared, except that he lied about it. If somebody lies about something that can be checked. What are they lying about that can't be checked, right? Jane: Exactly Well. And the other thing is, when you think about somebody's personal branding, wouldn't it make a great story? Hey guys, I don't know. I had a history degree and look how good I am. I'm running HP now and I had to leave the hospital. But to say he had a computer science degree. I mean it made no sense. But people do that still and I always tell people I know some of your listeners are small businesses where they don't have huge departments but one of the most important things you can do is do background checks and reference checks, unofficial and official, because people they never will stop doing it and no matter how many commentators tell them don't do it, they do it. Dave: Well, you know, I guess it's time for me to go update my LinkedIn. For all these years, jane, I've been telling the world that I was the CEO of the Alexander Group and you worked for me, so I think I'd better go fix that before it backfires. Jane: Well, you know, people always say how did you get the name the Alexander Group? And we, truly the name Alexander kind of has a masculine kind of connotation and you know, even when you were with us, dave, we would get calls once a week going Mr Alexander, please, yeah, and so so. So I think you just, I think not only did you say you were CEO, I think your name you've been passing off your name is David Alexander, right. Dave: That could very well be and I learned so much about presentation because, you know, when I was there, a lot of the the recruiters were young, you know, fresh out of college. The recruiters were young, you know, fresh out of college, and you know you and John did a great job of mentoring these folks and developing them. But it was always so interesting that, you know, we had a pretty casual environment and back then you would leave a message for a candidate and they would call back the main switchboard. I don't know we've, I don't think we even had direct dial numbers back then and they'd call back and switchboard. I don't know, I don't think we even had direct dial numbers back then. And they'd call back and here's this scruffy 23-year-old unshaven guy wearing, you know, birkenstocks to work, named you know Tom, let's say. And when the person would call back and they'd say, yeah, tom Smith, please you train the receptionist to say, oh, hold on. May I ask Mr Smith, you know who's calling you? know, just to I mean there's no harm in saying Mr Smith because that is his name, but why say, oh yeah, let me see if Tommy Boy's you know done, you know done having his afternoon tequila shot, right, I mean there's no use in. Jane: No, it was all about. It was all about the, you know, because we were so small in Scruffy and the other thing we would do would be to say I'd train the receptionist to go never say Mr Smith is not at his desk. Dave: Right, he is not at his desk. Jane: Right, he is not in his office and I will have one of his assistants call you back. Dave: Nice, nice, one of them. I like that. Jane: I know, I mean, you know, I just am blushing, thinking about what we did to make ourselves sound substantial. And there's Tommy Smith back in the back office, sound asleep at his desk, you know. Dave: Exactly. Jane: And sometimes I go, oh well, and sometimes you know candidates would call back. Well, is Tommy Smith calling me? And if I happen to be at the office late at night, you know some of it is the smoke and mirrors of making yourself sound like you're Well, I remember when I would like when you or John would be like traveling. Dave: I would try to book the mother BD. Right, you're interviewing folks in Kansas City, what other companies are headquartered in Kansas City or just other things. And one of the things that the things I did that I learned a lot about this is that even though you and John were based in Houston, if I was trying to set up Houston appointments, I would act as if you and John were based in San Francisco, like I'd say oh, you know Miss Howes will be in, you know she'll be in Houston for two days next week. You know she'll. she won't be in the San Francisco office, she'll be in the Houston office for two days Now the reality is you were going to be there for two weeks, but you were going to be there for those two days and it was what's the biblical saying you can't be a prophet in your own homeland. And I think it's still true to this day that expert from out of town and they rearrange their schedule for the person from out of town. Jane: Well, you know, there's a Buddhist saying that says the visitor from afar brings knowledge and I like that. Dave: I like that. Jane: And you know, sometimes I get asked to talk to college students about how our young people, about how do you find jobs, and my clients, kids, want to know how do we find a job. And I don't I'm not a career counselor but what I tell them is the further like if you went to NYU, say you're going to have more success calling NYU alums in Houston trying to get them to help you than you will in New York City. If you're a University of Houston graduate and you're in San Francisco, there's probably only 20 of you in the whole town and all people are hardwired to help people who come from afar. If there's a limited population and it goes kind of with that thing of being unique, like you know how many people come from Houston to San Francisco for a meeting. 20 years ago I mean it happened, but it wasn't every day that a head of human resources got that phone call right. Dave: In my business that it's easier for me to get an appointment in Syracuse, New York, if I'm going to be up there for business anyway. It's easier to get that appointment than it is with somebody in Houston, Because in Houston they're just like I'm busy this week, you know. Call me next month, you know, because you're so available. It's just like it seems like if you're meeting somebody for dinner, the closer the restaurant, the more likely you are. The closer the restaurant, the more likely you are to be late, or the more likely I am to be late, because if I'm driving 30 minutes I'm going to allow 45 for traffic and stuff, but if it's three minutes away, I'm going to leave two minutes before the dinner and then exactly a stoplight pot ad and then the parking lot's full and yeah no, it is, but it is something about the further something is away. Jane: And I remember one of the ways I built up our and some of our first clients. Most of our first clients were California companies because California had more. They were more used to women in doing C-suite searches. But you know, I was in California every two weeks for probably 30 years and I would call and go well, I'm from Houston, I'm a woman-owned search firm, I'm going to be in LA, can I come see you? And we got a lot of great clients like Wells Fargo, warner Brothers, yeah, a lot of McKesson company, because they were like oh, the visitor from afar they're coming to, they're coming from Houston and they're women in the search business Great, they're coming from Houston and they're women in the search business Great, you know. And I I spent a lot of time where people would go well, I have time tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock and I'm going to be there. And I quickly hung up the phone and called United and called Continental Airlines and started booking that airline ticket as fast as I could. Dave: Yeah, I do remember my listeners love stories. What are some stories of just interesting or amusing or candidate screw up things that come to mind where, yeah, I don't know a candidate showed up intoxicated or a candidate showed up and forgot to put pants on that day, you know. I don't know a candidate showed up intoxicated, or a candidate showed up and forgot to put pants on that day. Jane: You know, I remember way back in the early days one of my first big searches was a senior lending officer for a regional bank here and the candidate was great and it was. I was so excited and so I called the CEO of the bank after the interview and I said Rex, how did the interview go? He goes, jane, he didn't come. I said he didn't come. What the hell? Why didn't he come? He said, oh, it was okay. He drove through the teller window and passed a note to the teller to pass to me that he wouldn't. He changed his mind, you know, and you just go, who drives through the go in for the interview but drives through and says will you give this note, handwritten note on a scrap of paper I'm not coming. And so that was kind of the early days. A second story, and I mean it's crazy what we did back in the early days but one client wanted us to live in LA and take over all their staffing for it. This is when we were hourly billing and we were pretty cheap and they said, yeah, we'll get your room at the Biltmore Hotel in downtown LA. We want you there for a month and we're trying to figure out how to save money, because back then, you know, we just wanted to be and so we bought Dave a $700 car so we wouldn't have rental car charges, and we called it the gray ghost. It was a delta 80 and we drove this car and I am embarrassed to tell you, and I hope your listeners will think we were really creative rather than really cheesy but when we were done with the car, when we finished the search and the client actually is still a client in other iterations we just left the car at a Friday's Marina Del Rey and that was it, because it was on its last legs, you know, and we just that was it. We just left the keys in the car and that was it. Dave: That was it. We just left the keys in the car and that was it. You know you reminded me of something. A good friend of mine owes you his job because you just reminded me of something and I know I learned this from you. So it's really good friend of mine. Cpa, a classic, stereotypical CPA, introverted, not very outgoing but very technically sound, and he was working at a public accounting firm and he was kind of stuck at the senior level. He couldn't get promoted to manager, which usually happens after like five years. And there's a firm in town that I knew a guy there and they were looking for like a first year audit manager. So he was perfect for it. Looking for like a first year audit manager, so he was perfect for it. And so the three of us met for a drink at Papa Do's on Westheimer, over in the Galleria. But I told him ahead of time. I said Pete, he is. I'm just going to tell you right now, he's not Mr Personality. If you're looking for a glad handing, you know, outgoing salesman type, he's not the right guy for you. And so, of course, what did he say? No, we're not looking for a salesman, we're looking for a manager, right, somebody technically solid. So we met and afterwards we had a good time. And afterwards I said so what'd you think? And he said I'm glad you told me that he wasn't Mr Personality, because I was kind of prepared for it. And he did the same thing when they met with the people at the firm. He told them on the front end hey, this guy's not Mr Personality, but he's really smart. I think he can do the job. And 30 years later he's a senior partner at this Houston CPA firm and I know I learned that line from you. Now let me just tell you this person's not Mr Personality. Does that sound like something you might've said for? Jane: Yeah, well, you know what I mean. Part of what I look at a recruiter's job, an executive search person's job, is you tell the client what's wrong or what's missing, because they're smart and they're going to get it themselves. And if you tell them, you are adding value, you're being a consultant and you've managed expectations. So when we do a search, we write a paper, basically a report. These are the things that might not exactly fit, but these are the things that overcome what you are looking for. And which reminds me of one more story. I remember doing a audit partner search, for I think it was Grant Thornton up in St Louis and it was in Chicago actually, and so, as you recall, we would fly to the cities, park ourselves at a hotel restaurant and just sit there and make that our office. It was pretty soon, and so I got to O'Hare sitting down and my 3 o'clock appointment comes up at one o'clock and I go buddy, you're here a little bit early. He said, oh, yeah, yeah, I've heard great things about the Alexander group and I'm just going to sit at this next table and watch you in action. And I'm like, well, buddy, that's just not going, not gonna. And mentally I'm thinking well, buddy is no longer a candidate, but he wanted to sit and listen in on every other interview so he could get some good tips of how to interview himself, and anyway not a bad idea if he had just simply kept that information to himself. Right and not done it when I'd already started the interview. You know, I mean, I kind of lost two candidates right in one sitting. You know, you can't make this stuff up. Dave: That is something. I got a question somewhat related to search. Some of this conversation is about executive search. Right, we probably should have at least maybe a third of it about search. What about board members? So you know, I've got clients who ran, built, ran, sold $50 million revenue successful privately held companies, sold $50 million revenue, successful privately held companies. And they maybe think, yeah, I might like to be serve on a board. Now for somebody to be on a public company board do they need public company experience? Jane: You know, Dave, I think the question as I'm kind of rounding third base in my career and a lot of my peers are in their 60s and they're finishing, They've sold their private company, they retired from a public company. They, for whatever reason, they say well, you know, I'm going to retire, I'm going to, I want to be on a board. Can I get on a board? My answer is always this yes. However, it's a question of how much time do you want to spend to get on your first board? Once you get on one board, even if you're a private company executive, can you get on a public board, Asterisk, if you're willing to really work hard on at that. The average board tenure is 10 years. Board positions don't really turn over that much of a healthy company. So people get on a board and especially if it's a public board, there's incentive comp, there's options. It's not a hard gig for a lot of companies. So the answer is yes. And then what do you do if you want to get on a board? If you want to get on a board? Probably 70 percent of all board positions are not gotten through search firms. Does that surprise you? Dave: Maybe, yeah, maybe some. It's the network, the network of the other board members. Jane: Yeah, yeah, because people will say, oh well, I know somebody I'm going to, I'll go back to my UT alum group and see if they, you know, kind of knows around there. Or I'll see if, oh, I know a guy that works at Goldman Sachs, Maybe he knows somebody. I know a friend that's a part retiring from Ernst Young and I'll ask her. And so there's a lot of you know, with the call for diversity, search firms are becoming more involved but and doing more and 30% is still a lot to be putting out to search. But so the things that if any of your listeners are interested, I tell people, If any of your listeners are interested, I tell people, do a board resume. A board resume is different than a job resume. It's talking about your experience assessing risk, building a company, governance compliance, things that a board member would look at, governance compliance things that a board member would look at and the board members not looking at the details of you know, do you get two weeks or three weeks for vacation? They're looking at what's our strategic plan, the being the boss of the ceo, representing shareholders. So you want a board, one page board resume that talks about what you've done. That would be analogous to that. And then you really want to get on. A not-for-profit board Helps because, especially if it's big enough, there will be other corporate people there and you will make contacts. But it's really about making contacts. A lot of investment banks they don't use search firms when they take a company public. They have databases, they go through their contacts. Bankers know people. It's all about the three sources. I would say. If any of your listeners are saying I want to be on a board one day, do you know anybody in investment banking, private equity, public accounting, M&A law firms anybody like that and tell everybody you're looking for those recommendations. And then the last thing is a lot of your listeners are successful people who've had roles in companies that are entrepreneurial in nature, and a lot of them I know people that have taught an entrepreneurship class or a lecturer at Rice University here. And there's a lot of smart kids who are starting businesses. Let's not forget Google, Facebook, some of these companies that started from college kids, and I think that's a great avenue to think about when, if you're thinking about ways to get on a board. Dave: I like it. That's really cool. Well, speaking of rounding third base, I can't believe how the time has flown by. I have just a couple other questions for you. One is I've heard about this great resignation. For you One is I've heard about this great resignation. What has been your experience? Is this trickled up to the C-suite and the board level, or is this a problem that those people are having to deal with? People lower in the organization? Tell me about the great resignation from your perspective. Jane: Well, one thing hasn't changed. If you look at CEOs of Fortune 500 companies that are recruited from the outside, I would say they have a 50% chance of being there two to three years out. And why is that? Culture fit so the top. You will always have CEO changes, especially if they come from outside and they don't fit with the culture. What I think we are seeing and we see from our clients is post-COVID. There's been so many obvious changes but a lot of things that aren't obvious. People don't want to relocate as much as they might have pre-COVID. Why is that? Well, covid scared people in terms of my parents I've got to take care of my parents, I may have to have my kids at home for high school, and do I want to go to someplace new and have something like that happen? So I think you're having that we're coming out of. But you're also having middle range employees who aren't as loyal, and you know I always tease that a lot of the younger people today. If they have a bad Monday, they may be somebody someplace else by Friday. So I think there's not quite that dickiness of what you grew up with and I grew up with. Hey, you know we want to. You know we don't want to be a quote job hopper and I think people today don't care if they're job hoppers quite as much. And there's not that people are more willing. I think in COVID accentuated that where they're more willing to take risk. And, you know, maybe I'll be without a job for a month, two months, and yeah, I think we're seeing that. And what I tell small businesses that you know be focusing on long how do you make a culture that will keep people invested long term? And there've been a lot written on that and it's different for every company depending on where your location is and what your employee mix. But I think that's a really important thing that everybody's got to do in a bigger way. And also, lastly, dave, the emphasis on mental health, something that has changed dramatically in the last three years, where you know we've got to take care of people financially. And also, how are they doing? Because so many people were isolated during COVID and had mental health issues and people talk about that more, which we never did back in the day. You just bucked it up and, you know, kept making those source calls, dave, you know. Dave: For every six you made, you got to check off a tenth of an hour of work. Jane: Exactly. You had to make a left message with 10 people to get that six. I had it backwards. Dave: It was even harder than I remembered. That's why you get so excited if somebody answered the phone because that, even if you only talk 30 seconds, you got to put them down as a yeah, no, that's right they go no, I'm not interested and you go, that's OK. Jane: Awesome, ten minutes ahead here. Dave: That is great. So so I think the two questions left, so one. Is there anything that I did not ask you that you wish I had? Is there anything we did not talk about that you think we should have? Jane: No, you're a really good interviewer, Dave, which? Dave: I learned it from you. I learned it starts with interviewing candidates and it translates to other things. Jane: Well, I'm, you know, I'm really honored to be here, dave, because the people that you serve and that you do work for. I think it is much harder to run a smaller private company than it is a big company, because you've got to have employees who are multifaceted, You've got to have employees who have an entrepreneurial mindset, you've got to have employees who have an entrepreneurial mindset. So my hat is off to the work you do the clients that you serve, because it is a hard business. Dave: Well, I appreciate that. I love serving entrepreneurs, that is for sure. So here's the last question. This is a curveball one you may remember. When you asked if you need to do any preparation, I said no, we're just going to talk about your life story and you don't need any prep. But I promise you one curveball, and here it is. Are you ready? If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 or 28 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Jane: Yeah, oh, that is a great. That is a great question. Don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff. Dave: Okay. Jane: And the things that you worry about about 90% of them do not materialize. Dave: Was that? Was it Mark Twain or Will Rogers? I always get their two quotes conflated. But one of them said I'm an old man, man, and in my life I've known a great many. I've known a great many difficulties, most of which never came to pass, or something to that effect yes, that's right. Jane: And Mark Twain, as you will recall from our time together, said I didn't have time to write a short story, so I wrote a long story, right? Dave: Exactly. Yeah, I learned a lot about incise writing and just I'm always amazed that people that just the simplest stuff that I never picked up in English class. Like you know, bob is a person who does XYZ, he's not. It's not Bob that does something, it's Bob. Bob's not a that, he's a who. Jane: That's, that's right and word choice, and. But you know I, you know I sound like a geezer, but you know stuff like that is. I mean a lot of people today really don't know that. I mean even you know I see at the executive ranks a lot of people who, who just, and you know, I think one of the things when I talk to people early in their career is learn to write, learn business writing out there. I mean especially now with Zoom and you can do business with people by email A lot of people. And if I get a resume from somebody that doesn't spell check or anything else. Dave, one final story, and it's so good and it reminds me. It does remind me of you for obvious reasons, but I don't know if you remember that we sent a letter out one time when you joined, maybe when you rejoined us, and we said Dave is from you know, arthur Anderson, a leading public accounting firm, but we left out the L of public. Do you remember that? Dave: I remember that does sound familiar. I remember somebody saying well, I don't know what it is, but we want some right, that's funny because, yeah, when you send out as many, as much written correspondence as the firm has for so long, it can't try as you might, it can't all be perfect. Just like I'm amazed when I read, like a bestselling book that sold 20 million copies and you find a typo. You're like but you know, when I talked to an author about that they said, yeah, there's, you know, 100,000 words in here, like you, just sometimes they slip through the cracks. Jane: Well, Dave, I the thing I remember about you and I always feel like I can learn something from everybody, even though there's an you're younger than I am. But even back when you were really young and with us, you were so effective at client communication and getting business. And do you remember that? You are the ones that taught us that people are hardwired to want to help, but you have to give them a way to help you. And you would come up with a list, Like, do you know people from any of these five companies? And people would look at and go, oh yeah, I can help you, I do know somebody from here. And what a great way to teach someone how to develop their own clients as to teach the client how to help the potential client or source how to help them. Dave: Well, that's one of the benefits of being a bad employee who changed jobs every year is I was exposed to a lot of things. I learned that in the financial services business and what made it so powerful was because in the financial services business you're always trying to get you know referrals to folks and if you just say, hey, jane, you know who, do you know who's looking to buy life insurance, probably nobody comes to mind. Nobody, because nobody's come up and said hey, I need life insurance. Do you know anyone? But what I learned in that is still helpful today. But instead, if you give somebody a list of 10 people and you say, jane, I'm going to be calling these 10 people next week, I'm just curious, can you tell me, is there anyone on this list you think's particularly great or you think really highly of? And they'd say, oh sure, let me borrow your pen. They check off the before names, you're like great. And then I would say, hey, by chance, if you happen to talk to them before next week, will you tell them I'm going to call them and they, of course, would say, sure, I haven't talked to this guy. I went to law school in five years. It's unlikely I'm going to talk to him this week, but sure, I'll tell him, okay. And then, finally, jane, when I talked to John Lamar, is it appropriate to mention that you know that we had a conversation? You know that he came up in conversation? Sure, yeah, no problem. So then, when I would call the person, it was so easy. Hey, john Lamar, by chance did Jane Howes tell you I'd be calling? No, how's Jane doing? I haven't seen her since law school. Boy, she's really wonderful, I like Jane. And so, yeah, you know Jane. Huh, yeah, I haven't known her a long time. I haven't known her as long as I've known you. Meaning I've met her for 10 minutes, but all of my dealings with her were first rate, all of them. And then just say, hey, you know, jane had some nice things to say about you and she thought we might benefit from knowing meeting one another. You know, know, when are you? It was amazing how well that. But it all started with just having a list to start with, because there's a difference between if somebody like, let's say, that conversation went poorly and john lamar called you back and said, hey, why'd you have? that dave spray guy call me. Well, if you can say, I didn't tell him to call you. He already had your name. He was going to call you anyway he just asked me. Jane: Anyway, great guy, yeah right. Dave: He just wanted to know if you were a jerk or not. And apparently I was wrong because you're gonna give me a hard time. All I did was say you were a nice guy and and now you're giving me a hard time, but yeah and and dave. Jane: What I remember the funny thing was john lamar are my 30 year partner. He went to a meeting with you and he said jane, dave pulled out the list. And I said he pulled out the list. And he said yes, and it worked and we just like we were so nervous about the list. But, Dave, it really worked. Dave: It is funny. And the irony is, the time you pull the list out is when the meeting doesn't go well. You know, like it's a brief meeting and they're like no, my best man at my wedding is a partner at Horn Fairy. That's where all of our search goes. We'll never give it to anyone else. Well, now you have nothing to lose by pulling out the list. I mean, if they on the spot want to sign you up for some searches, well, just keep the list in your pocket. But and the irony was the worse the meeting goes, the more helpful. Jane: They would seem to be right because they kind of feel bad that you flew away from houston. Dave: You flew all the way from houston out to see them and they can't help you. So now, sure, I'll look at your list. I'll give you some. Jane: But it's true, the list, dave, I mean that is a course in business development and we were like God, that list is not going to work. But it works, it absolutely does. Dave: Well, and you know when I first used that this shows what how I approach business development when I was in the financial services business right at Arthur Anderson attorneys were my best prospects. So this was like 1990, excel hadn't even been invented, they were using Lotus one, two, three. And I bought the Martindale Hubble legal director. You remember this thing? The blue, yeah. Maybe it was an yeah, but it was a blue thing and what I did that I was so proud of myself. I went through that and I created a spreadsheet and I knew one attorney in Houston and he was like a second year attorney at some place and he went to U of H and I played basketball with him and I went and I had lunch with him and I pulled out the graduates from like the top 20 law firms in Houston and I'm sorted by year in college. So the first list I gave him was all of the people who graduated from law school, the ones in his start class. And then I gave him a list of all the other U of H grads who were like a couple of years older to a year younger Same thing, who do you know? And then I made the call to them and then, jane, it got to be so crazy. I would go to like V&E and I would be there like I'd have like 12 meetings in a row, like, and they would literally walk me from one office to the next and they'd be like, hey, so who's next on your list? Oh, bob. Oh, he's a hoot, yeah, you'll enjoy meeting him. And so they would escort me into the office. It was like it was this introduction from one stranger to another one, but then the new person I would meet with. So you know, lauren introduced me to a guy who started with him that went to UT, so I would have all the other UT guys at his firm and at the other firms in town and it just exploded. Like in three or four months I was like the guy for all the third year attorneys at Baker Botts and V&E and Fulbright, but anyway, that is so fun, but it works, dave, and it's something you know. Jane: 15, 20 years later I still remember. Quote the list. Dave: Yeah, yeah, some great times. So, jane, thank you so much for not only inviting me to the 40th anniversary party that was just spectacular. Seeing some of my former colleagues, that was just great and just having the ability to be friends with you and your husband and John Lamar all these years is very special. I like to say there's only one ex-girlfriend I keep in touch with and there's only one ex-employer I keep in touch with, and that's you all when you are a VIP favored status. Jane: you work for us twice and we keep hoping that phone will ring the third time, dave, and it'll be the charm. Dave: Yeah, you never know. And I would jokingly say I did two tours of duty which you know doesn't really sound very complimentary to the firm. I must say, tour of duty has a certain negativity to it in a way, you know, conscription drafted. Jane: Yes, it's. At least it's not like prison sentence. You know I'll give you that. Dave: That is awesome. Well, Jane, I could talk all day to you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate everything. Jane: Oh, my pleasure, Dave. How much fun this has been. Dave: It has been have a great day. Jane: Thanks, Dave Bye. Special Guest: Jane Howze.

Wrap me in felt and stick your hand up my backside! We're Movin' Right Along through Musicals Month and this week is special birthday pick from Dave: It's The Muppet Movie! This movie holds a special place in Dave's heart and it helps Bryan remember where the sun rises and sets. So you know, pretty important. How long until we do a Ray Romano impression? Tune in to find out! *The Muppet Movie © 1979 Disney

About Dave Kahle: Dave Kahle is the President of Kahle Way Sales Systems, a company where they help CEOs and VPs of Sales for Wholesale Distributors increase sales, gain market share, and significantly increase the ROI from their salespeople in 15-30 minutes a week. He is a B2B sales expert and Christian business thought leader. Dave helps his clients increase their sales and improve their sales productivity. He's written twelve books, presented in 47 states and eleven countries, and has helped enrich tens of thousands of salespeople and transform hundreds of sales organizations. Sign up for his free weekly Ezine. Three international entities recognized his book, How to Sell Anything to Anyone Anytime, as "one of the five best English language business books." Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Dave.In this episode, Nancy and Dave discuss the following:The importance of sales processesImportance of sales processes: big picture vs. day-to-dayStrategies to make prospects comfortable: first impressions, appropriate dressing, sharing personal details, effective questioningInvesting in sales managers: their impact on salespeople's behaviorsVirtual selling: increased need for thorough preparationUse of "snippets" in sales conversations and their value in everyday life Key Takeaways: Sharing something personal and unique about yourself breaks the barriers between you and the customer.The depth and detail of your question have a lot to do with how you make people comfortable with you.The sales managers are the in-between step between management and salespeople.Everybody can sell better if they choose to. They can."In that book, we talk about two different levels of sales process. The big-picture sales process is what a sales organization and the salesperson do over time. And then what I call the day-to-day or the nitty-gritty sales process is what a salesperson does with a customer or a prospect. […] Let me talk about the nitty-gritty sales process and how it relates to everyday activity. So, the first step in the prospect is to engage with the right people. And that can trump everything else. If you spend your time with the wrong people, no matter how well you do everything else, it's a waste of time. So, step one is to engage with the right people. Step two is to make them comfortable with you. Because if they're uncomfortable with you, they won't react transparently and honestly. Step three: find out what they want. And again, there's a whole body of content surrounding each of these. I mean, a couple of days' training for each of these. The next step is to show them what you have given them and what they want. And again, that applies to anything, anywhere, anytime. That's why it's the title of the book. Then, you agree on the next step. And again, each one of these can be at least a couple of training days. At that point, you follow up because the decision is typically made in the business-to-business world. The decision to buy is typically made when you're not there. So, you follow up and leverage satisfaction with this, which salespeople often neglect to do but to leverage satisfaction into additional internal or external opportunities. And then you know what? You're back where you started from. So that's the process. That's the process that an individual salesperson uses to relate and sell anybody, anything. You have to do all those things regardless." – DAVE"There's a whole lot of things, like number one, that is so often overlooked, and that is to make an excellent first impression—to look like you, to sound like someone that people can talk to and relate to. So that's step one. And then there are so many things, like, for example, how you dress. I have a rule—you should dress like your customer, only a little better. So, if you're a man wearing a suit and tie, calling on farmers, I mean, your suit and tie is separating you from connecting with that farmer, from making that customer comfortable with you. So, you dress like the customer, only a little bit better. And that's the rule for everybody. And then, there's sharing. I like to share something personal. It forces the customer to see you as a human being, not just a role player. You're not just a salesperson; you're a real person.- DAVE"It's here to stay, and it's growing, and it has, and it required. It requires not necessarily something new, but the salespeople who are selling virtually have to be much better. For example, you cannot make an appointment to talk with somebody on a Zoom call and not be thoroughly prepared. You know, like so, the pressure to be thoroughly prepared so you're not wasting time looking foolish on a Zoom call is far greater than if you stop by. You're just going to stop by and see them, and sometimes you're not fully prepared, but you cannot do that on a Zoom call. Now, it's increased by a multiple. So, number one, they must be far more prepared. You know, with agendas and objectives of every sales call. That's always been a best practice, but many have ignored it. You can't ignore that anymore. And so, you know, that's a big one. And then there are lots of things that kind of fall underneath that, things that you need to do when you're selling virtually that you don't necessarily need to pay that much attention to when you're selling live." – DAVEConnect with Dave Kahle:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davekahleWebsite: https://www.davekahle.com/Housing Lessons: www.thesalesresourcecenter.comTry Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/  Connect with Nancy Calabrese: Twitter:https://twitter.com/oneofakindsalesFacebook:https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/Website:https://oneofakindsales.comPhone: 908-879-2911 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com 

This episode we speak with Dave and Tina, parents whose son, Craig, struggled with his mental health from a young age. As he got older, substances entered the picture as well. When Dave and Tina tried to help, they found themselves ping-ponging between worlds. Addiction providers told them that their son needed mental health support, while the mental health programs said he needed to treat his substance use issues first. All of this left Dave and Tina floundering as they desperately tried to help their son.Dave and Tina eventually found a different approach (a combination of CRAFT and the ITC) which helped them learn communication skills and positive reinforcement strategies to help their son and keep their family connected.   “We can't climb inside their heads and take over the controls and steer them away from their drugs, but we can be the reason they choose recovery.”    [2:06] Dave and Tina's 43 years together began with a cancer battle, infertility treatments, and the adoption of their two sons Craig and Sean. [4:02] Early signs that Craig's development wasn't progressing like other children. [7:15] It was Craig's girlfriend who first alerted Dave and Tina to his substance abuse. [8:10] The impact of complex co-occurring issues on the entire family. [9:50] A lack of support from the school compounded Dave and Tina's struggles. [10:53] Each family member will have their own reaction to a loved one's addiction problems. [12:20] The 5-Step Model helps families understand how they can support and meet their loved ones where they currently are, rather than where they are. [14:15] “Things got worse before they got better.” [16:40] Dave found what he needed in support groups, but neither Tina nor Dave knew how to communicate their struggles at work. [21:02] After being diagnosed with autism, Craig's behaviors slowly began to stabilize. [23:55] The point when increased self-awareness and communication skills allowed natural consequences to also play a part in Craig's recovery. [25:22] CRAFT and the Invitation to Change are designed to help teach communication skills and reinforcement strategies that help everyone involved. [29:13] The positive influence that Dave and Tina have had on Craig has allowed him to problem-solve on his own and support other people in his life. [32:46] The importance of trust in healing a broken relationship. [34:20] Dave and Tina's son Sean has experienced his own strides in growth over the years. [36:10] Tactics that Dave and Tina have learned to support each other. [38:30] Advice from parents who have navigated through years of turmoil in a mental health crisis.   Additional Resources: Dave and Tina's Support Groups: https://www.alternat-i-ves.org/index.html CMC: Foundation For Change Beyond Addiction Workbook Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change Invitation to Change: A Short Guide  SpiritWorks Foundation National Autistic Society Support for Families with Autistic Child   Tweetables: “It's no rock bottom for the family members. It's a constant rollercoaster ride.” — Dave “It was almost like he was a pressure cooker waiting to go off, and until that steam had gone, he just couldn't cope with his frustration and anger.” — Tina “When you know you're doing the right thing and people put seeds of doubt in your mind, you start to think, ‘Am I doing the right thing?'” — Tina “I realized that it didn't actually matter what the drug of choice was. Alcohol, gambling,  heroin. The family's going through exactly the same.” — Dave “Sometimes you, some of those natural consequences really do work and you don't really know which one's going to work. You just have to try things.” — Dave “I'm gonna be the best dad I can possibly be for him. And if I have to learn some tools about it to get there, then I will learn those tools.” — Dave “I've never wanted him to say sorry. I've just always wanted to see him get better and get healthy.” — Tina “It's important to be together, supporting each other as well as giving each other a little bit of space and encouraging you to do things for yourselves as well.” — Tina “I don't need to know all of the answers to these problems and that's been really helpful.” — Dave “There needs to be more family support so that when people leave recovery, their families are on their side.” — Dave

On today’s episode, the well known author, Kyle Benson joins Dr. Dave and Dr. Liz todiscuss the simple principles that make marriage last. Kyle discusses the profound effectiveness of Emotion Focused Therapy in the stabilization of relationships. In addition, he recognizes the benefits of using the research by John and Julie Gottman to maintain a healthy relationship. Timestamps: 0:00 – Introduction: Who is Kyle Benson?3:00 - Combination of Gottman Method and Emotional Based Therapy8:36 – What is the longing for attachment?10:15 –Am I enough? Am I worthy of love and care?12:50 – Attachment Strategies/Styles16:03 – Emotion Focused Therapy20:15 – Conflict is fire22:43 – One sided partner effort26:10 – What is the key to a stronger marriage connection?27:25 – Kyle’s resources28:40 – Takeaways About Kyle Benson: Kyle studies how partners in healthy relationships intentionally –talk to each other, have passionate sex, stay emotionally connected, and more – to uncover the tools and perspectives that make love last. His work has been featured in dozens of major media channels including The Gottman Institute, Business Insider, U.S. News, The Chicago Tribune, Huffington Post, and more. Insights: Liz: The healthy “We” starts with a healthy “Me.”Kyle: Underneath every criticism is a longing for attachment.Dave: It is not necessarily a poor partner but a poor pattern. Invites:    -    Join Kyle Benson’s email list to get free and easily acceptable tips to make marriage last.   -    Take 10 minutes to write down how you are going to change the unwanted patterns in your relationship. Kyles’s Links: https://www.kylebenson.net/ FB @Kyle Benson: https://www.facebook.com/kylebenson.net Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: Strongermarriage.org podcast.strongermarriage.org Facebook: StrongerMarriage.orgInstagram: @strongermarriagelifeTikTok: @strongermarriagelife Dr. Dave Schramm: https://drdaveschramm.com https://drdavespeaks.com Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/DrDaveUSU Facebook Marriage Group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579 Facebook Parenting Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/542067440314642 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdaveschramm/   Dr. Liz Hale: http://www.drlizhale.com/ 

On Today's episode of the Stronger Marriage Connection, we dive deep into disagreements with our guest, Laura Silverstein, who is a certified Gottman couples therapist. Discover with Dave and Liz all kinds of tips to help couples manage differences in their marriage shared by Laura. Timestamps: 0:00 – Introduction: Who is Laura Silverstein 1:47 – Conflict is not a bad thing in marriage 4:00 – The number one communication problem in couple relationships 6:21 – Two parts to establishing new habits 11:11 – Four horsemen – John Gottman 14:55 – What to do when both partners continue to be critical 18:27 – How to repair damages within a partnership 23:50 – Ownership, humility and kindness 27:05 – A little about Laura's book workbook 29:07 – Key to a stronger marriage connection 31:35 – Takeaway's About Laura Silverstein: Laura Silverstein is Certified Gottman Couples therapist as well as a recognized thought leader in the field of relationship wellness, sought out for her expert advice from media outlets such as, the New York Times and the today's show. In her book, Love is an action verb, Laura helps couples focus on their strengths instead of their problems and guides them with small step by step action plans. Insights: Dave: It takes humility, compassion, understanding and awareness when rebuilding something that has fallen. Take the time to slow things down and really look at things from a wider perspective Liz: Take ownership, be humble and stay kind when working through a repair in couple relationships Laura: It is important to have humility and stay humble when we enter loving relationships, no matter the challenges at hand Invites:    •    Take ownership, have humility and be kind. Those are key things to effectively repair a relationships    •    When things start to escalate, it is good to ask for a break – take a time out and revisit later    •    Two parts to learn – learning how to avoid conflict in the first place, if possible, and understanding how to get out of it once you are stuck Laura Silverstein Links: https://laurasilverstein.co Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: Strongermarriage.org podcast.strongermarriage.org Facebook: StrongerMarriage.orgInstagram: @strongermarriagelifeTikTok: @strongermarriagelife Dr. Dave Schramm: https://drdaveschramm.com https://drdavespeaks.com Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/DrDaveUSU Facebook Marriage Group:https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579 Facebook Parenting Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/542067440314642 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdaveschramm/   Dr. Liz Hale: http://www.drlizhale.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Firewalking is the ultimate challenge. Designed to break through subconscious barriers and harness the power within. Dave takes us on a journey from being an alcoholic to becoming one of the authorities facilitating firewalks. The journey was rough. His life changed when he attended his first Tony Robbins event and participated in a firewalk. Shownotes:    Dave's journey into the world of fire walking began with his own transformative experience. Inspired by the profound impact it had on his life, he embarked on a mission to share this empowering practice with others.   In this episode, we discussed:  Dave's journey of going through the AA process to overcome his alcoholic addiction Dave's first time experience with firewalking How Dave started FireWalk Adventure   Connect with Dave Albin:  Dave Albin on LinkedinDave Albin Website Connect with Sabine Kvenberg:  Sabine Kvenberg on FacebookSabine Kvenberg on Instagram Sabine Kvenberg on Linkedin Sabine Kvenberg on YouTube BECOME Podpage Sabine Kvenberg Resources [00:00:00] Dave: We're either motivated by inspiration or desperation. And I remember thinking, well, I'm pretty desperate. And, you know, he's right. He said, he said, you know, we'll, we'll do more to avoid pain than we will to gain pleasure. And so a lot of the things he was saying resonated with me. So he was selling a program called Personal Power. [00:00:19] And to date this, it came on little white things called cassette tapes. Right. And so it was a 30, it was, it was a, it was a 30 day program, and this is what I, you know, this is why I really love being here with you and your audience is in terms of becoming, because that's where it really started to open my mind up to, you know, I, I remember thinking one time, it looks like, you know, the two most important times of my life we're the moment I was born and the moment I figured out why, and that all started, you know, as far as the becoming for me. Started with Tony Robbins.  [00:00:52] Sabine: Hello, my name, Sabine Kvenberg, founder and host of Become. The Content will inspire you to reach your [00:01:00] aspirations and become the best version of yourself. I feature interviews with successful individuals from various industries, delving into their personal and professional journeys and their strategies to achieve their goals. [00:01:16] We have to become the person we are meant to be first, so we can live life, we are destined to live. That means we must overcome challenges and work through difficult times to learn, grow, and become the new, more fabulous version of ourselves. I'm so glad that you are here. Let's get on this journey together. [00:01:44] Hello and welcome Dave. I'm so excited to have you on the show today.  [00:01:50] Dave: I'm great. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks, Sabine, it's really always an honor to have somebody like you to have me on your show. So great to be  [00:01:56] Sabine: oh. Oh, fantastic. Thank you. And you know, just [00:02:00] I read your bio and see all the things that you've done. [00:02:06] You worked with Tony Robbins, did the fire walk and organized it or helped, organizing it or leading it. I definitely want to talk about that with you later on in the show because I did the firewalk myself. So I wanna get some perspective from you. But before we go there, I just would like for you to, to share with my audience, your upbringing because you were actually adopted. [00:02:38] So yes. What happened, with your birth parents or with your birth mother, and what was your past in the upbringing?  [00:02:46] Dave: Well, thank you for asking that question because I, I'm always honored to share it because I. You know, my life was really blessed as a result of being adopted in what happened with all that. [00:02:55] So my mother, my biological mother, was what you could refer to back in World War II as [00:03:00] Rosie the Riveter. In other words, when the men went off to war, the women stayed home and built tanks and airplanes and guns and, and you know, to defend the nation during World War ii. So she worked for McDonald Douglass and she literally built air airplanes. [00:03:12] Well, after the war, she went to work at the Roosevelt Hotel, which is in downtown Hollywood, California. And she met my biological father. And two months before I was born, my biological father was a pilot in Korea. And we don't know exactly what happened, but we know that he had some kind of injury to his head and in an attempt to save his life, they put a plate in his head. [00:03:36] Well, it also took his life. He had really intense pain apparently from that plate. So he kept telling my mom that he didn't know how much longer he could take this pain. Well, two months before I was born, he said he was gonna go to the grocery store and we never saw or heard from him again. So my mom was left with the two other boys that she had from a different father and then myself.[00:04:00]  [00:04:00] And though she tried really hard to keep me, we were living very close to Hollywood High School, you know, in Hollywood. And when I was five years old, she couldn't make it anymore. She couldn't make ends meet. So she put me up for adoption and her sister. Adopted me, which would've been my aunt and uncle. [00:04:17] And so when they adopted me at the age of five, they, both of them, had sworn off drinking Bob and Pat Albin, my adopted parents. And when I was 11, things took a, you know, right turn, made a heck of a change in my life. And they both started drinking. And again, things got pretty, pretty ugly, pretty fast. Well, in my curiosity, one day when they were both gone, you know you could do that back then. [00:04:41] Right? You know when we were living in Long Beach, right. You know, an 11 year old kid, if you wanted to leave them, you just told the neighbor across the street, Hey, I'm going to the store. If David needs you, can he come over? And of course the neighbor would say, yeah, of course he can. Right? And so parents did that back in those days, believe it or not. [00:04:57] And so they left me one day and I knew where the [00:05:00] booze was and I, and I knew that when they were drinking it, that they changed, there was something about them that was just, you know, things got ugly. And I'm like, what is this stuff? Mm-hmm. And Sabine, I poured it into a glass right? And I, and into a cup actually, and, and about half full. [00:05:13] And I drank it. And that was it. I mean, I, I never had a chance. I believe that I was an alcoholic. Right on the spot. Literally.  [00:05:21] Sabine: Wow. Wow. And so, so lemme ask you this, when you are 11 years old, you wanted to try out what happened. So, and you pour it in a glass. I can only imagine. It must have tasted terrible because kids really,  [00:05:35] Dave: It was horrible. [00:05:36] It was disgusting.  [00:05:37] Sabine: So what, what made you do it again then?  [00:05:40] Dave: It was like it didn't matter because the feeling that I got was brandy, and you're right, it tasted horrible. However, here's the challenge. The challenge was it made me feel invincible. I had, I mean, it was like pouring rocket fuel into my body. [00:05:57] And again, I never had a chance. I, I, you know, again, I, I, [00:06:00] I never drank normally. I, you know, the old saying once too many and a thousand's not enough. And that applied to me from the very beginning that I, you know, tasted alcohol for the first time because immediately after drinking it, I wanted more. [00:06:13] And I would, you know, steal it. I would hide it, you know? And this is at 11 years old. 11, 12 years old. Wow. I was moving into junior high school and then that just led to hard drugs. And then once I got with hard drugs, then my whole peer group changed. Right? I started hanging around people that I shouldn't. [00:06:29] And I mean all of it. Prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, drug addicts, the streets, gangs, all of that violence, and I turned into a very horrible person.  [00:06:41] Sabine: Wow. Let me ask you, did your parents knew that you were drinking secretly?  [00:06:49] Dave: Not in the beginning. No. Uhhuh, I was pretty, they were so engulfed in their own alcoholism that they weren't really paying a much attention to what's was going on with me. I was able to hide [00:07:00] it and mask it pretty easily. Now, they found out later, once I was in my teens. Yeah. But they never really put two and two together that, you know, th they've never heard this story cuz my parents have been gone for a long time. [00:07:10] Mm-hmm. So what developed there is that, you know, I just got to a point one day I got, you know, when I was in my early thirties and I woke up one morning and said, we're done. I'm not doing this anymore. I was in such physical, emotional, and spiritual pain that all I wanted, all I cared about is that day the pain's gonna stop. [00:07:29] We're done here. I'm out. And I literally put a pistol in my mouth. I, I put it in there twice. I was gonna end my life. And I was married to a woman who had three kids. They were my stepkids. And I remember thinking, oh man. When you do that, these kids are gonna see that they're gonna have to live with that. [00:07:45] And so from a, a compassion standpoint to me, and I said, you know, I, I can't do that to them. So the alternative was you call this organization called Alcoholics Anonymous. And I did, and I went to my first meeting on [00:08:00] June 8th, 1988. Well, actually with the four meetings that day, they sent a guy to come pick me up and I went to a 12:30, a 4:30, a 6:30 and an 8:30 meeting, and it stuck. It worked. And though the first year of my life, you know, in, in AA was horrible. I had withdrawals like you wouldn't believe the guys were back in those days. They were like, drink orange, juice, fresh, squeezed orange juice, eat a lot of chocolate to try to balance your blood sugar. I probably should have been in rehab. [00:08:28] I was probably close to delirium, tremors though I never really got there. Mm-hmm. Cause delirium, tremors will kill you. You know, alcohol, when you come off alcohol, you can actually die from withdrawals.  [00:08:38] Sabine: Really? I did not know that. So the aria trimmers, why would they kill you?  [00:08:45] Dave: It can send you into cardiac arrest, number one. Number two, sometimes you're shaking so bad if you ever seen an alcoholic who's shaking trying to get alcohol in them. Yes, yes. They'll shake so bad. You, you literally shake your internal organs apart. Wow. It's bad. And that's why they call 'em [00:09:00] tremors because you're sh you know, and I could, I can remember times where, Lots of times where I'd wake up in the morning, well, I'd wake up, let's put it that way. [00:09:07] Not necessarily in the morning, but I'd wake up and you have to have a drink to get back to normalcy. Right. You know, and I'd have to, I'd be literally sitting in the, in the bathroom on the toilet, you know, naked with a bucket in one hand and a bottle in the other, trying to drink enough vodka to get it down. [00:09:24] And I'd throw it up in the bucket. But eventually you'd take a sip and you'd, you'd drink it and it would stay down. And then you go from shaking like this to shaking like this, and then next thing you know, you drink a little more and next thing you know, the shakes stop. Next thing you know, you drink a little more and now you're, you think you're feeling normal. [00:09:45] I remember saying things to myself like, I keep doing that until I would stop shaking and I'd like breathe. And I'm like, okay, you know, it's not so bad. What, what do what? Dave? You're sitting, you're [00:10:00] sitting in the bathroom naked with a bucket, with a bottle of vodka. How can you, you know what I mean? So you lie to yourself at a level that's pretty much unbelievable. Yeah. you know, telling yourself, oh, it's not so bad. Yeah. Right. Well,  [00:10:13] Sabine: it's, you know, it's, it's that the two voices that we have in our heads, right. That, that one that always comes up to make excuses, to help you feel better, and for, for one reason, it's also a savings mechanism. [00:10:29] hey, absolutely you have to do it, otherwise you may be dead because you're shaking so much. Right. So there's, right. Yeah. It's, it's just so, so challenging, so difficult, and I can only imagine what you went through those times. Now, your wife, how did she and the children for that matter, how did that work out? [00:10:52] Dave: it, well, it, it, it didn't, you know, I was at a point in my life where it just wasn't gonna work. She was a [00:11:00] bartender and so when I married her, guess why I married her, right? And when I married her, she had three kids and I thought that would help calm me down. I thought that would, you know, put me on the road to start to living, you know, a decent life. [00:11:11] But it didn't, that didn't work. So we ended up in divorce and then later, once I was in AA and living that lifestyle, I met my, the wife of my children who I was married to for 23 years and have two kids with, and again, we met an aa so she was, she was the only wife I had where I was actually sober, and that made a big difference in my life. [00:11:34] It was sustainable.  [00:11:35] Sabine: Yeah. May is stroke awareness month. Lifeline screening can help detect someone's risk of having a stroke or cardiovascular disease. Each year, more than 700,000 people attend one of those screenings for peace of mind or early detection, and I am one of them. You see, my mother passed away [00:12:00] from cardiovascular disease and I want to do everything I can to feel. [00:12:05] Safe. So join me and schedule your screening today to book your appointment. Simply click the link in my show notes. [00:12:19] Have you ever tried to build your own website, start a newsletter, or build a course and charge for it? Have you ever wanted to make money online but are totally confused by all the different systems you need to have? That's why I use Kajabi. You can build your webpages, blogs, and membership sites. You can create offers, check out pages, and collect money. You can host your videos. You can start your newsletter list, capture emails, start your marketing funnels all in one place. It makes it fun and easy with awesome tutorials and [00:13:00] support. Since I've joined Kajabi from the beginning, I have a special affiliate link that I would like to share with you. [00:13:07] A 30 day free trial. So nothing to lose, but everything to gain. Just go to my link that's in the show notes sabinekvenberg.com/resources and we will redirect you to the free trial page. And if you are just starting out and want to get your offer out for sale in just three days. Let me help you do that. [00:13:34] Visit my webpage by the way that I build on Kajabi and apply to making it happen. Now, let's get back to the show.  [00:13:46] What happened after you went through that challenging period? What went through your head and how did your life expanded from there?  [00:13:57] Dave: Well, what AA opened me up to was [00:14:00] the personal development industry. My sleep patterns were all over the place. You know, I would sleep all different times and I was up late at night all the time. Well, one night I'm up late and there's an infomercial by Tony Robbins, right? He's a, here's a young, vibrant Tony Robbins, and he's all motivated and he's talking about. How we do things in life, right? [00:14:20] We're either motivated by inspiration or desperation. And I remember thinking, well, I'm pretty desperate. And, you know, he's right. He said, he said, you know, we'll, we'll do more to avoid pain than we will to gain pleasure. And so a lot of the things he was saying resonated with me. So he was selling a program called Personal Power. [00:14:39] And to date this, it came on little white things called cassette tapes. Right? And so it was a 30, it was, it was a, it was a 30 day program, and this is what I, you know, this is why I really love being here with you and your audience is in terms of becoming, because that's where it really started to open my mind up to, you know, I, I remember thinking one time, it looks like, you know, the [00:15:00] two most important times of my life were the moment I was born and the moment I figured out why, and that all started, you know, as far as the becoming for me started with Tony Robbins. Well, after I went through his program for 30 days, I did everything that man taught me to do and it worked well. What happened from there is I loaned, I had a buddy in AA and I, and he's dude, man, you're really changing. I really like your attitude. I like what you're saying in the meetings. [00:15:25] You sound very encouraging and. And you know what's going on. I said, well, you know, I'm, I'm listening to this guy by the name of Tony Robbins. I went through his program, I read his book, and he said, wow, that's really cool. I'd love to get into it. And I said, Hey man, I'm here. Let me, you can borrow my tape program. [00:15:40] And so he said, really? Sure, absolutely. Here, take it. You go, well, he did. He went through it just like I did. Well, seven years later, he calls me on the phone and says, oh my gosh, Tony Robbins is coming to town. We can go see him in person. Come on man, you got me into this. Let's go. And I said, all right, sure. [00:15:58] I'm available that date, those [00:16:00] dates, let's do this. And then, and just as he gets ready to get off the phone, he goes, oh, wait, wait, wait. By the way, I need to tell you something. We're gonna be doing a fire walk. And I remember thinking, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Maybe you are, but I'm not gonna do that. And you know what's so interesting about that? [00:16:21] I didn't even know what a fire walk was. I had no reference for that. I didn't know, but it sounded like there was, it was nothing. I was interested because I'm coming from a very fear-based, you know, position in my life at that moment. So, you know, we, we get to the event. We get on our seats. Tony takes the stage at two o'clock in the afternoon, and the next thing I know, it's after midnight. [00:16:42] We've been in a room for 10 hours with Tony Robbins. Yep. Dear God, help help us. Right. Well, about that time around midnight, he says, take your shoes off. And I'm like, oh boy, here we go. And now he's been prepping us for this fire walk. Right. [00:17:00] Well, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna take my shoes off. Why? [00:17:04] Because I'm not doing it. And then I thought, well, wait a minute. All these other people are taking their shoes off and if you don't take your shoes off, they're gonna know that you're a coward. And I went, oh my gosh. Well we can't have that can we? So I'll fake it. I'll take my shoes off, which I did well. [00:17:23] From there, he takes you out of this giant parking lot. Now I'm with 3,500 people at this event. And when you go outside, he is got everybody chanting. Yes, yes, yes. Clapping their hands and, and when, right. And when you get outside, he's got African drummers to kick up the ambience a little bit. Right? So now it's everybody's clapping and it's dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun dun. [00:17:49] And you know, you, you can feel the vibrations. I mean, it is intense. Well over in the corner of this giant parking lot. They had built the fire probably starting around [00:18:00] three o'clock in the afternoon, and they let it burn all night. And so what it does is it renders, right, the coals burn all day, all night, and then you have this giant bed of coals. [00:18:09] Well, what they did, because there's so many people at this event, they loaded those coals in a wheelbarrow and then they'd pull a wheelbarrow and they'd lay two lanes of saw of grass, as you know. Mm-hmm. On both sides, right about three feet wide. 15 to 18 feet long and they just took a shovel and they would shovel the coals out on, on that grass. [00:18:29] And that's what you walked on? Well, when I got out there, I'm like, well, I'm not doing this. And so I got separated from my buddy and I said, well, I'm just gonna go hide out in the back. Nobody's gonna know except for me. Right? We we're gonna know. Well, hiding out in the back. You think it's a good idea? [00:18:48] Think it's a good strategy? Nope. Not. Not a good one at all. Why? Because Tony's people know where all the cowards are. Right? And they're trained to come get you. Oh, is said. So [00:19:00] well, I'm hiding out in the back. All of a sudden, here comes the sky and he makes eye contact with me. And I think Tony trains him. [00:19:07] Look, once, don't you make eye contact, don't take your eyes off of him. And so, yeah, he's looking at me, big's eye contact, and he gets like maybe 20 feet from me. And he looks at me and he goes, are you okay? And I, of course I lie. We all lie, right? I go, yeah, no, I'm fine and I'm not fine. And he said, well, are you gonna walk tonight? [00:19:27] And I said, absolutely not. And he goes, oh. And I said it to him with a lot of, you know, Get away from me kind of energy. And he said, Hey. And he said, Hey man, that's okay. We don't want you to do anything you don't want to do. And I thought, wow, okay. I like this guy. He's gonna be my ticket out of here. [00:19:46] And then this stranger, this guy I've never met, don't know, he asked me a question that changed my life forever. And he said, well, wouldn't you at least like to watch. And I said, well, [00:20:00] actually I'm thinking, yeah, I'd love to watch these people burn their feet off. Let's go do that. And he said, well, you know, I was a hundred yards away from where they were doing it sabine, I couldn't see anything. And he said, well, you're gonna need to just get in line. Right. And, and and his defense, he was telling the truth. He was being congruent cuz I couldn't, I was a hundred yards away. I couldn't see anything. I had 3,500 people in front of me. I couldn't see anything. And, and so I got in line. [00:20:26] And after I'm just kind of walking along, walking along, the next thing I know, this guy comes up and he whispers in my ear and he says, he knows when you're ready. When he says, go, you go. And I went, what? And then that guy just disappeared into the night, and I'm kind of walking along and all of a sudden I get to a point I can't see in front of me, but I can see at an angle and I'm looking and I'm going, they're doing this. [00:20:47] Look at them. I mean, every race, creed in color is walking on fire and my brain is freaking. I'm like, what in the heck is going on? What are, what are they doing? Why are they doing it? You know, metaphorically, I'm trying to figure all this out, [00:21:00] and as I'm watching and watching and watching and watching, and all of a sudden, boom, guess what? [00:21:04] Sabine: You are in the front row.  [00:21:05] Dave: I'm in front of the line. That's right. I'm in the front row and now I'm staring down into these and I'm looking at these calls on this lane and there's a wheelbarrow there and you can feel the heat. And my heart's going just, it's just I'm outta my mind with fear. And there's a trainer standing there and all of a sudden he goes, eyes up. [00:21:25] And I went, oh. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Eyes up. Well, when, when, when I was in the, when I was in the room with Tony for 10 hours, guess what? He teaches you? Eyes up. Keep your eyes up. Mm-hmm. Eyes up. Don't stare at what you fear. Look at the celebration end. That's where the reward is. So now my eyes up and he said, squeeze your fist and say, yes. [00:21:42] And I went, yes. And he went stronger. And I went, yes. So he could tell I wasn't in a peak state at all. Mm-hmm. Right. I was over here in fear and then he screamed at me. He got like in my face and he said, stronger. And now I'm like ticked off. Right. So now I got adrenaline and I threw my [00:22:00] hands in the air and I went, I screamed at the top of my voice. [00:22:02] Yes. And he goes, go, go. Go. I took off. Yeah. Well, wow. As you know, they put two people at the end of the lane, two guys, and they, you know, they lock arms mm-hmm. So that they can stop you. And they're like, stop, wipe your feet and celebrate. Right. And a girl reaches in and pulls me and grabs me and gets me out of the way. [00:22:20] Right. Going, you did it. You did it. You did it. Well, they do that because he got somebody coming in behind you. Right. Well, here's the first thing I learned about fire walking. Great lesson, great metaphor for life. When you take that first step onto those coals, oh, you'll take the second, third, fourth, and fifth, I guarantee you. [00:22:37] Right? You're not gonna stop in the middle of that fire lane. Well, that was it.  [00:22:42] Sabine: So you did the fire walk, and what happened then? What changed?  [00:22:48] Dave: Well, what changed was, you know, again, that night it was spectacular. It was one of the most unbelievable experiences of my entire life. And the next day, this is where it really [00:23:00] got interesting for me. [00:23:01] I'm in a foyer with 3,500 people getting ready to go into the venue, and I'm looking around Sabine and I'm watching all these people, and they were communicating unlike anything I'd ever been, been around. I've never seen or experienced anything like this. They were laughing, they were crying, they were hugging, they were engaging, they were telling their story. [00:23:22] It was just like, it was like story time everywhere. 3,500 people just were completely transformed the night before and now here's how they show up the next morning. And so it was, what was happening is this, what's your podcast is about? They were becoming, And so I'm watching all this and looking at all this, and I'm thinking to myself, really is this, did this happen? [00:23:42] Did we drink a Kool-Aid? I mean, did this happen because of the fire walk? And the answer is yes. Now, I've, I've since studied fire walking pretty intensely, and it's been around for a thousand years. It's been used by cultures everywhere. The Phehisians the people of India use it, the Polynesians, the [00:24:00] Hawaiians, the India Europeans, the Native American Indians, and they use it as a very spiritual growth. [00:24:06] They use it for graduation. They use it for rite of passage. Tony was using it to get leverage on people, right? So that if you could walk on fire, What else can you do? So I, I got involved with the, as a volunteer, and then from there I got asked to be a subcontractor. I had a security background and in the military, so I got recruited to help with some of Tony's celebrities. [00:24:27] And then I got put on the fire team and I got offered a, a subcontracting position. And I started working for Tony in 1990. It was 1995 E, either late 95, 96, and then 2003, my life forever changed. Tony offered me the fire captain's position, which meant that I would take over all of his fire walks globally, which I did. [00:24:50] 2014 is when things took another turn. Yeah, so 2014, I'm driving down the road, my phone rings, and guess who it is? A little company [00:25:00] called Google. Google's calling me and they're like, you know, I'm like, hello? And they're like, hi, this, my name is so and so. My name is Anne. I'm with Google. And are you the Dave Alba that does the fire walks for Tony Robbins? [00:25:11] Yes. Why? What? How can I help you? And they said, well, we'd like to talk to you about you coming to, mountain View, and we have 148 executives are gonna graduate and we want to create an incredible experience. We understand you're the, you're the guy to talk to about that. And so they ended up hiring me. [00:25:29] And, you know, they were like, you know, if you're not under any non-compete or contractual obligation, yeah. You know, we, we'd like to have you on such and such a date. And I looked at my calendar, yeah, I'm available. And then I said, so what's your budget for this? Right. And they, they wrote it down and they said this. [00:25:46] And I looked at it and went, okay, I can work with you guys. No problem. Let's do this. So once I got to Google, I knew, well, actually two of the executives pulled me aside at lunch after the event [00:26:00] and they were like, Hey, you know, you know, we wanna share something with you. You might want to consider doing this, you know, on your own as well. [00:26:08] Cuz there's a heck of a marketplace in corporate America for this because CEOs and business owners need some kind of experience to create a huge shift in their people. And we don't know that there's anything out there. Anything like fire walking? We don't think there is. I mean, we're Google, you know, we, we, we have the information available to us, right? [00:26:30] And I'm like, okay, well Google's telling you there's a marketplace, there probably is. And they were right, of course, obviously. Because I went from Google to NASA. I went from NASA to Notre Dame, to Virginia Tech, to Microsoft, to Heineken, to Remax, to Chick-fil-A, to the entrepreneur organization. I mean, I just, it just kept growing organically. [00:26:51] And so here we are, you know, and I'm still, I'm still doing it today. The cool thing today is what I, what's happened for me now is I'm running the Dave Alban Fire Walk [00:27:00] Academy. And what we do there is we bring in people who wanna either come as a life coach and they want to enhance, you know, what you know their, what they offer to their clients. [00:27:11] And or a company will send somebody from the HR department, we'll teach them how to do fire walking, glass walking, board breaks, arrow brakes, rebar, bending, a whole bunch of different things. And then they take those experiences back to their company and can facilitate, you know, for their own company.  [00:27:29] Sabine: If you could give one piece of advice to my audience, what would that be? [00:27:36] Dave: Stop looking for heroes and be one.  [00:27:39] Sabine: Oh, I love it. I love it all. Thank you so much. If somebody wants to get in touch with you to become a firework facilitator to go through your academy, how can they do that?  [00:27:52] Dave: They can go to www.firewalkadventures.com. Perfect and schedule a, [00:28:00] schedule a discovery call. They will personally talk to me and I'll take them through the interview process. [00:28:06] And if we think it's a match and you've got good intentions and you're there to serve and you're there for love and connection and to really, really, Help change people's lives on a grand scale. You might find yourself at our academy next October.  [00:28:21] Sabine: This was such an eye-opening, delightful, inspiring conversation. Dave, thank you for being on this show today.  [00:28:31] Dave: It was my pleasure. Thanks, Sabine  [00:28:33] Sabine: That was my interview, and if you enjoyed it, give us a five star review, leave a comment and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening until I see you again. Always remember, serve from the heart, follow your passion, and live the life you imagine.

Video game acting is a unique art form that requires strong acting skills & an imaginative approach to storytelling. Anne is joined by special guests Dave Fennoy & Randall Ryan to discuss all things Game VO. Voice actors must bring their characters to life in a way that's authentic & impactful for players. Believe it or not, the average age for video game players is 40 years old, and these people have been playing games for 15+ years. These players are seeking a high level of story sophistication & depth of character when playing games. For a voice actor, Game VO recording is often a solitary and non-linear process due to logistics, but it still requires a deep understanding of the character you're playing, the world they inhabit, and their relationship to other characters. Invent as you go. Know your character, the world, and how your character would react in the moment. As with any genre, it's best not to overthink things too much before recording, but instead trust yourself as an actor and allow yourself to get creative during the session itself. And if you want to work with the pros, stay tuned for a unique opportunity to relax, recharge, and level up your game VO skills with Dave & Randall…   Transcript    It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.   Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am pumped to level up my BOSS knowledge about Game VO, and I am so excited and honored to have the best in the industry, Dave Fennoy and Randall Ryan. Dave is a renowned voice actor and instructor based in LA with a vast portfolio of work in commercials, narration, TV promo, animation, and of course video games. He's best known for his character, Lee Everett in the Walking Dead Game, and has voiced characters for more than 500 games on some of the industry's biggest titles. And IMDB has named him one of the 20 best male game voices of all time.   Randall Ryan began his career as a musician in touring rock bands, and today is an award-winning composer and producer of gaming and commercial music scores. He co-founded Hamster Ball Studios back in 1995, where he's been directing talent and producing game audio for more than 20 years and has since contributed to numerous high profile video game titles. Also, co-host of Let's Talk Voiceover podcast and still performs the occasional live gig and thinks dogs make the best people. And I of course, think cats, but maybe that's for another podcast discussion, Randall, I'm not sure.   Randall: Who's your animal spirit podcast?   Anne: There you go. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. I am so excited to talk to you today,   Dave: Oh, it's our pleasure. Happy to be here.   Randall: Absolutely.   Anne: So what I love, BOSSes, is that I have both sides of the glass here today so that we can get a really comprehensive view of game VO as it exists today. So I'd like to start off with Randall and ask you as a casting director, can you give the BOSSes an idea of the game VO market as it stands today, let's say, compared to 20 years ago when you first started?   Randall: Well, yeah, that's almost an unfair comparison. I think what I would say is 20 years ago, games were just kind of coming into their own as even an art form. And now as I think a lot of people know, it is the gorilla of the industry. I mean, last year games sold more than film and music combined.   Anne: Wow.   Randall: Which is just amazing. And the other thing that I see that's very different from 20 years ago is 20 years ago, it was certainly the wild west when it came to voice acting. It was often like the person of the cubicle next to the developer, and they were just throwing some voices in. And if they hired actors, there was not a lot of, I don't know if I would use the word respect. It just wasn't really truly a real part of -- VO was an afterthought. And I think the difference is, is now is not only has gaming VO reached a really high place as art form, but the thing that I really see and, and it's the reason that I think you don't pay attention to game voice as your own peril if you're a voice actor, is it is changing every other genre.   Commercials are different because of gaming acting, and even for the people that don't know it that are writing copy, they've been growing up with games. They've been playing games, and they, and they also see other commercials that have been going to more gaming acting principles. And so even if they don't know that, that's where that creative is driving from -- bottom line is that is where that creative is driving from. So even if you're not going to be in games, I think it's really important as an actor to understand what it takes to be a VO game actor. It's kind of like, even if you're gonna be on film, you really need to understand theater. You need to understand all the principles of it. It's very much the same kind of thing. You may not wanna be a Broadway actor, but you don't study theater kind of at your own peril. I think it's kind of the same idea.   Anne: Well, probably if I had to count the amount of times you said acting --   Randall: Yeah. Well   Anne: Right, in that response? So acting is so very important. Not just I think to game view, but just to voiceover in general, especially now. And I'd like to ask you, Dave, let's talk a little bit about acting and your thoughts on why it's so important that voice talent today really have that acting prowess. Dave: You know, when we talk in the general world of voiceover, acting is important, but it's more important when you are looking at video games. We become a good actor in voiceover to be able to be ourselves or a character similar to ourselves for commercials and narration, or even TV promos. But we're looking for something wider range, a much wider range of who these characters are and with a different purpose. If you're doing TV promos or commercials, your job is to get people to buy a product, watch a TV show.   As an actor in a video game, your character drives the story forward. Whoever your character is, whatever it is they are doing, they are part of a story, not part of trying to sell you something or get you to do a particular act. And what the audience for video games is now, one, they're averaging about 40 years old, and they've been playing video games for 15 to 20 years. And they want an adult experience, and they don't mean adult like chicka chicka wow wow.   Dave: But they're looking for cinematic performances, which means more subtle, more real. Your performance has to fit into the world that these games are in. It's not about your voice, no matter what your voice sounds like. It's about can you let this character inhabit you and bring this character to life with just words on a page and a microphone? And there are various techniques that really are founded in acting principles that'll help you get there.   Randall: And, Anne, I'm gonna add one thing to what you said too. You are right that your primary job in a commercial is to, I guess you could say, is to sell a product. But really in essence, even as an actor, is that really your job? Your job is still to inhabit that scripts, and, and this is where I think some of the changes are coming from. And so in the same way that there are certain people who are spokespeople that the whole celebrity thing has happened, but a lot of times you're putting the celebrity in because people like them. They aren't really selling --   Dave: Because people like them and believe them.   Randall: And believe them. Absolutely. And so people are putting him in there not to actually sell. You know, did Matthew McConaughey sell Lincoln? He didn't. He drove around and said some talking. But he's playing in essence, even though it's him, he's playing this character. And I think even in commercial, to understand what that character is supposed to be that the writing is, you still have to be that character more now than you ever did before.   Dave: Which brings us back to your point, Randall, that learning to be a good video game actor or good actor will help you across the board in voiceover.   Anne: Yeah. I'm just gonna say, with my experience working with students for not just commercial, but a lot of the long format narration, like corporate narration and explainers and, and medical, I mean, even then there is a role. It may not be as dynamic or as long played out as, let's say, a video game, but there is still that acting that has to come into play. And I'm gonna talk about how important I think it is, especially now with the advancements in technology. But I wanted to ask you about the story. Okay, so the story for a video game is a lot different than, let's say, a story that's laid out in front of you.   So like a story, if you're assuming that you're gonna be in a commercial, you're gonna be selling a product, there's a character backstory you can develop. Like you want it to end up that the person agrees with you and says, yes, this is a great product for me. If it's corporate narration, it's kind of a nicely wrapped up little story about a corporate story about their brand. But with video games, it's ever changing, and it's not necessarily all laid out in front of you. And I was gonna also do the example of an audiobook where you've got the entire book and the story's laid out in front of you. But yet with a video game, do you know the entire story right away? Or is it something that develops?   Dave: Chances are you will never ever see the entire script. The video game industry is very secretive. We have all in the video game industry signed hundreds of NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, because they're very secretive. They don't want anybody to know or share what's going on in their game. So even when you audition, sometimes you have to sign an NDA before you can even do the audition or send it in with your audition. And you're gonna get a few lines of whoever this character is, maybe a little bit about the game itself, but never "this is what the entire storyline is and this is what happens." You will never see that script. If you're an actor in a movie, in a play, in a television show, you'll see the whole script. You'll know your character's arc. Being a character in a video game is much more like being who you are. You have certain tendencies, a world, a belief system. But when you walk out the door every day, you don't know what's gonna happen to you.   Anne: That's a very different skillset, I would think. Because each and every time you are getting that script or that little tiny portion of it, you're either developing the scene, the backstory, and the emotion. And so that's like constant, like I would think acting requirement for that just is through the roof .   Dave: Well, you developed the character in that audition. But when you get there, say you did five, maybe ten lines, now you've got 100, maybe 500 lines. And some of them may be paragraphs or monologues. And it's a matter of being in character and going with what is this character thinking, feeling, doing, being, who are they talking to in this particular moment in time?   Randall: Yep. God, there's so many things that that just brings to mind, but, well, what is Mark Dale's quote, a mutual friend of ours, he's a director in London. Yeah.   Dave: This is the exhaust of the acting engine.   Randall: That's one. And then he is got that little spy thing, which I think when you're talking about how do you deal with a video game character, that to me is like, yes, that's actually it.   Dave: One of the things Mark likes to talk about is the spy who is in another city, another country, another place using a different name, dressing different, pretending to be this other person. And his life or her life depends on how well they roll with the punches, roll with a different situation, somebody else asking them particular questions, and it's constant improvising in character.   Randall: Yes.   Anne: I love that. That's such a different way to look at that. Okay, so when you're talking about how to, I guess, evolve that character is sometimes the story -- well, I imagine you would know this -- developed as you also developed the character and then the story might change?   Dave: Well, you know, it's interesting. Uh, during the Walking Dead game, sometimes I would arrive at the studio, and the script got there 20 minutes before me. So yes, actually sometimes the writing is right there with you. So sometimes they wouldn't have been able to tell you anyway because certain things hadn't been written yet. Especially in something that's ongoing, episodic like that, but whether they know it or not, you as an actor are not going to see the entire script. You are gonna live this character moment by moment. So you are living in the world of, what am I reacting to? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I doing? Who am I talking to? And what's that relationship? Which we do as actors anyway, but now it's moment by moment.   Anne: Now Randall. So then in terms of directing a talent, right? What is that like for you? Because you also probably don't get the script right away either, and so you're directing and so what's that process like?   Randall: Well, I usually get it a little bit sooner than the actors, but you're right. It's not like I've been sitting there with it for months or weeks or anything like that. So everybody has got a different philosophy. I guess I'll tell you mine, but I think most directors I talk to will probably tell you something very similar to this. I think this is true of other genres, but video games, it almost has to be true. You cannot go in with this voice in your head or character in your head. Like, this person is going to be like this. It has to be a collaborative process, because you haven't, as a director, haven't had time to absorb all the stuff. But even if you did, even those occasions where you do, writers write, and there has to be a translation, and that actor is coming in with sometimes, you know, you're looking at Dave says 500, sometimes you're looking at maybe 500 lines for that character. You're looking at thousands of lines of script, and we're not gonna put people together, ensemble. And there are a lot of reasons for that. I, you know, I know that's a sticking point for a lot of people, but there are a lot of reasons that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon.   Long and the short of it is I have to trust the actor. So the actor and I both have to be working together to come up with this character. They come in with an idea, I come in with an idea, the writer comes with an idea. At some level check your ego at the door. We're gonna work this out as we go. And that's a lovely process when it works well because once it starts clicking, everybody's discovering, and that's where you get this magical performance that you couldn't have scripted it like that. But that also really derives more than anything else from actors who are comfortable with this, who aren't thrown by change, who are able to invent as they go.   And I think so much of that invention is that understanding what Dave said, where are you? What happened before you got here? What are you reacting to? How do you feel the other person? These are acting principles, but I think they're also just mindset principles that you have to get into as you're observing humanity and everything else. And some people do that extraordinarily well.   Dave: You know, one of the things I find working with students is generally they don't realize how much time and effort they need to spend in discovering everything about this character and everything about a particular scene that they're gonna do. I like to tell people, well, look, we've got words on a page or screen and a microphone, and we have to stay on mic and we have to read the words. An actor on stage, an actor on set has memorized their script. They are in costume. They have another actor that they're bouncing energy off of. There is blocking, they're gonna move from this place to this place. They know what the action is that they're going to do and they can do it. Once again, we're reading words on a page in front of a microphone.   But we have to bring the same level of acting to those words that are on a page through that microphone. And the only way to do that is to put yourself in the place of that actor, say on set, on scene.what am I wearing? You know, what does it look like around me? Am I sitting, am I standing? Am I walking? This person I'm talking to, what's my relationship with this person? Where are they in relationship to me? Or where are they when there's more of them in relationship to me? What just happened, I mean, in the last couple of seconds, that I'm saying or doing what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling? It's that type of preparation and using your imagination that brings you to believable performances.   Anne: So Dave, when you're creating your character, before you're going into record -- and that might evolve, right, as you do that -- what sort of steps are you taking to envelop that character in a believable way for the script that you have?   Dave: Well, just the things I was talking about, you wanna take in the whole script. Too many people I think wanna start, oh, what are my lines? Oh, is my line, my line. Bullshit. Bullshit. My line, my line.   Dave: And we wanna start with the big picture. If there is a description of what the game is, take that in. Video games are very much like movies. As a matter of fact, they're like 70-hour movies. And whatever genre you can think of, including romcom, for a movie, there is an analogous one in video game. So where does this game live? What kind of world does it live in? Then who is your character? And as much information as they give you, take that all in. Now I realize sometimes it's three paragraphs of information about your character and then five lines. You can't fit everything about that character into those lines. But you can find how this character would react in this situation. What is their worldview? Create that. One of the things I suggest to people from time to time is before you read the lines, read the character description, and then ad lib the character, talking about himself based on those descriptions. He was born here, his parents died, he was kidnapped, he was made a slave, he met a wizard. Tell your story, but without reading it; just off the cuff, improvise it based on the few things that are said there before you get into the script. And once you're in the script, you gotta pay attention to all the alternate lines besides your own and the stage direction. I'm amazed how often actors will -- they'll get their lines, but the alternate lines and stage directions they ignore. All of those are clues that you've, you've gotta take in.   Anne: Yeah. I say actually to my students that even for like something that may seem dry or boring like a corporate narration, the words are there for a reason. Somebody was paid to write those words, and every word has to have a meaning. And I think that there's so many people that just rush in to their studios, and like you were saying, just line by line, and they don't take in the whole story or try to imagine the story, that moment before. There's a moment before even I think in every piece of voiceover copy, there's a moment before. And I think if you can take the time, right, to develop that story, it will help. Let's talk a little bit about -- because I know you've got something happening, Dave, at Voiceover Atlanta, an efforts class, I think, or an X-session.   Dave: Yeah.   Anne: Let's talk about maybe not necessarily efforts, but body and how important your body is to be able to, I guess, express better acting.   Dave: Your body informs your voice. Once again, it doesn't start here. It starts with all of this. It starts with the look on your face. It starts with your honest reaction, your honest thinking, and those thoughts, those feelings will trigger a physicality that makes what you're saying come out in a certain way. Randall had mentioned something, we are translating the written word into the spoken word. They are not the same thing. I actually go so far as to tell myself, look, I'm not that into the words. They're not the most important thing. If you're crying or screaming, and there's a dialogue that's going on through it, and I can't quite understand what you're saying, for me, that's okay. Because what I really wanna understand is what this character's going through in this particular time. Now, if it's something very vital that has to be said, that leads to something else, yeah, we'll want to hear.   But voiceover 101, you wanna sound like you're smiling. What do you do? Put a smile on your face. You wanna sound like you're a little more important? Stand up just a little bit straighter and suddenly there it is. You wanna seem like you're a little bit more tired or something? Let your body relax, and there it is. How a character with a limp, or with a hunchback, or with a injury to their face, how they're gonna express themselves, or they're of a certain age and, and the voice has gotten tired from smoking and drinking alcohol -- these are what we're trying to find.   A lot of people will say, well, I'm putting on this voice, but why? There's nothing wrong with creating a voice, but why? How does this voice serve the character? What is it about this character that that voice is there? So your physicality, if you're somebody, maybe your head's off a little side from an old injury, or maybe you're that guy that's really tough and you're always got your chest out and ready for action. That's what changes your voice. Not something that you're putting on, but something that you allow to happen based on so many other things: your thought, your feeling, your action, your relationship and who you are, what your natural physicality or the natural physicality of that character is.   Randall: When you're talking about the body and you're talking about the voice -- I'll pull all three of these together, what I think at least is kind of simply -- you are acting in your emotions have nothing to do with your character voice. That voice that you put on is a filter. And where people get confused -- because historically this would happen. That voice that you're doing is somehow your character, and then that becomes caricature. That's not true. That voice is a filter. And when you talk about body parts, all the things that Dave just talked about, you could be the age you're at, and if you've got a hip injury, or you've got a limp, or you've got a lung issue, it's gonna sound a certain way.   So all you're doing after that with that voice is, it's a filter. If it's a guitar, it's, you're just turning the overdrive up a little bit on the distortion. But what you play is still gonna be what you play. It might make you play a little bit differently,'cause you got a little more sustain if we're gonna use the guitar thing. But ultimately you're gonna play what you play. And that's, I think the mental process it has to be. You are acting that emotion, you are acting that injury, you're acting that malady, you're acting that physical trait that you have. And then if it calls for it, change your voice placement, change your register, change your nasality, you know, all of that stuff.   Anne: Now Randall, you mentioned something earlier that I wanted to ask you, about when you're recording the characters, they're not typically done in ensemble format, right?   Randall: Right.   Anne: And typically the talent is recording from their studio or in a studio with you. Right?   Randall: Yeah.   Anne: Why is that? Why is there not -- because I would think if you're bouncing off other characters it might --   Randall: Yes, there would be. And sometimes you get that opportunity, but there are two reasons really. One, you have non-linear stories. In a movie and a TV and something of that nature, you have a beginning and an end. So it actually becomes very easy to say, well, we'll put these actors together -- we'll say a movie more than a tv. 'cause I think for TV set, you know, everybody shows up the same time. But we know we're gonna need you on these days 'cause you get at all your scenes that these people and they're gonna need you on these other days. When you have 50 characters that are all speaking. And when you have interactions with any and all of them, the time to actually do that, the logistic issue to do that is almost impossible. And that's one of your absolute biggest reasons right there. When it really comes down to logistics, if I'm going to have Dave come in and do 500 lines, do 1000 lines, and in those lines he's got soliloquy lines, he's got 20 that are interacting with this one person, you just can't really pull that together in the same way. And the other thing in a movie that's different than, than a video game is there's all this back end -- of course movies are more than just about filming, about having the actors there. But that is so much of a focus, where in the game there's all this other stuff you have to construct. You know, think about a movie. If you actually had to construct the world in which you live, now make it non-linear, now make it so that there're branching storylines, or that if you go this way this happens, it actually becomes logistically almost impossible to do.   Anne: That makes a lot of sense. Now, in terms of, let's say the flow of what you do as a director, once you cast something, is it mostly just when the actors available they record their lines? I mean there's gotta be so many things, I would think that the story's gotta be there, right? The game writers have to have the story written. and then you have to get all of the characters to record their lines. And then -- so tell me a little bit about that process.   Randall: Well, that's a big thing. I'll try to make it kind of short. So one of the things you really have to do is at some point you gotta lock the script down. And trust me, that can sometimes be an issue. But you just do, you have to lock the script down, and you have to get everything that you're going to get. Of course there has to be some when the actor's available, if I, if an actor not available for a week 'cause they're on set doing something else, of course you can't use 'emthen. But really that becomes the puzzle piece that comes on this end of scheduling everybody. Dave, I've got this time on Monday and Tuesday. I don't have anything till Thursday. Do any of those fit with you? Bam. You lock it down, you, you do that.   The other thing that is also different about games that -- I mean as budgets go up, maybe this will change, but at least for now, again, some of it is logistics and some of it is budget -- I cast Dave to do a role. By the way, when Dave shows up, sometimes he knows ahead of time, but a lot of times it's like, hey, there're probably gonna be a couple more, just letting you know. And he shows up and because you've got soldier numbers 1 through 10 and townsperson number 1 through 20, it's like, Dave, can you pick up a townsperson? Can you pick up a soldier? By the way, they can't sound like the character that you're actually in here to do. You know? So that's another thing that happens all the time.   Anne: Yeah. And I always like for talent to understand what happens like outside of their little bubble of just voicing something. And so that's why I think it's wonderful to have the two of you there, 'cause it can kind of see how you really have to work together in order to produce and do something successfully together. So it's good to know like what you have to do as a producer or director. And of course the talent has to really, I think, be able to perform pretty much on demand, is what I'm thinking. That's what it's sounding like to me.   Dave: Exactly pretty much on demand. . And it's interesting from my perspective, whether I'm in my home studio or I go into another studio, there will be a producer there, the writer might be there, the director might be there. And I, I think the director's job is, the director's the person who knows how to communicate with actors. The writer may be able to tell you, well this is what's going on and so forth. But they have a tendency to keep talking too much, and they're more invested than they need to be to get the performance you want, whereas the director is your guide. When you are at home doing your audition, you are your own director. You have to make choices. But when you arrive on your gig or the gig arrives at your house, and you're on camera there, now you have somebody to take some of that weight off. And maybe they've listened to your audition and said, well you know, you made a good acting here, but that was the wrong choice. What actually is happening is this, and our job as actors is to be able to create the thought, feeling, attitude, movement of a character, and if it's something different, it's up to us to just make it different.   Anne: I love that you said that cause there's so many people I know that seem to be afraid of making that decision whether it's right or wrong and committing to the acting, because they don't necessarily know what's happening and so therefore they just play it safe.   Dave: And beyond playing it safe, they don't really know. They haven't made a definite decision. And the person who is listening to that audition come in, it doesn't say anything to them. You're probably going to do better making wrong strong choices than no choices.   Randall: Absolutely. Or safe choices. Absolutely.   Anne: I love that. I love that. I got so excited that you said, 'cause I was just like totally connecting with that. Let's talk a little bit about talent that might wanna get into video game voiceover and maybe the demo, which I think is probably an important part of helping them maybe get their foot in the door. Let's talk about what's important in a game demo.   Dave: It's interesting. We were talking about this with each other just the other day. I always liken video game acting --I always tell my students, look, I want you to think of yourself as a character actor. When we think about character actors, and even movie stars who started as character actors, there's something about them, the way they speak, the rhythm of it, their look that we have a reaction to, an emotional reaction to. And every one of us has some of that. You may not feel like you are ABC to yourself, but people who encounter you, that's what they see. So we wanna find out who you are, and now we wanna display that character, that you, the truth of you in a variety of characters from a variety of times in a variety of places with a variety of points of view. So we might be in space, we might be medieval, we might be futuristic, we might be post-apocalyptic, we may be a doctor, a lawyer, a soldier, a wizard, a swordsman, a thief. We wanna bring all these characters with dissimilar energies, dissimilar worlds together to demonstrate all the things that you can do.   Randall: Yeah. Be authentic first. I mean, I like to listen to a demo. I have a 1 and a 1A. 1 is be authentic. That has to be it. I have to stop listening to you as an actor 'cause there's time for that after the demo's done. When I hear a snippet, whatever your 12 seconds or whatever the time is with that character, ideally, and I know you, you can't always do this, but ideally when that clip stops, you're like, no, wait, what happens? 'Cause you got invested in it, you know? And then the second thing is a certain amount of versatility. Now, I think unfortunately to most people, versatility they think means different voices. And it is true that that is part of it. There's no question that you have to be able to demonst --'cause if there're gonna be three characters in a game, I can't hear the same voice. So yes, you do have to be able to learn to change your register, to change your voice placement, to change accents, to do all this other kind of stuff.   But ultimately it really comes out of your attitude difference and your emotional difference. And being -- if you're hyped, if you are just in this manic place, your voice is just gonna sound different than if you are at the bottom of the well depressed, even being the same person. So find those things, not just the emotions of them, but what does your voice do when it does that? How are you delivering things in a different way when you find that? And that's where you get all this variance and you hear different people out of it. So that is definitely 1A. If you, if you're a one trick pony, if it's a good trick, you might get booked a lot, but you're just gonna up your game and up your bookings the more legitimate tricks you can show. I probably shouldn't use the word trick. The more legitimate shades of yourself that you can show, the more legitimate shades of what you do, the better it's gonna play for you.   Dave: And let me just say this, there are people who can do lots and lots of accents, lots and lots of different voices, and sometimes that can kind of hurt you on your demo. If you've done so many different things that they don't come away with a sense of who you are.   Randall: Right.   Dave: You might not remember the name of so-and-so who did all these voices. None of them were the same. They may have all been really good, but you don't remember who this person is.   Randall: Right.   Dave: So I always say, look, start with who you are and keep coming back to who you are. You may have some in different accents and different voices, but start with you and keep coming back to you.   Randall: Yep. I agree.   Anne: So is there a time period -- I know that I work with so many students that are new, and they always wanna know, well, how long will I have to study? Or how long will I have to do this before I can create a demo? If you had to give your experience, how long would it take for someone to -- I don't even wanna think that it's all about the demo because really it's about the acting. Right? And it's about who you are as a voice actor. How long should a student expect to study acting in video game VO? Is it the same for everybody? Is there a length of time that you think, oh, after five years, this will be great? Or after one year, what do you guys think?   Randall: Absolutely depends on the person. I think mentally, if you're talking to people who are getting into the business or are wanting to get into, even just, I've been doing commercial, I wanna do video games. Even if it's that, so somebody who has been working. I think if you mentally think two years of hard work, that's a good baseline. Now there are gonna be people who have all the tools that they need, and in six months they're just rocking and rolling. There are gonna be people that after two years, they're just now starting to figure it out. And it's gonna take 'em five. How do you know? But I think you need to be mentally prepared. Kinda like if you start a business up, I think this is gonna take me a $100,000 in a year. Double it or triple it and then you're probably safe. I think it's the same thing.   Dave: And in so many ways, I think people getting into voiceover and not just for video games or animation, but for the various genre, each of the genres calls for something a little different. There are some rules of the road for all of them. I just think when you get to video games especially, from the smallest whisper to the loudest shout, from characters who very much might be like the disc jockey you used to be, or to the used car salesman that maybe you remember -- you're gonna see all those kinds of characters. If you come with some characters, with some idea of playing like you were when you were a kid, when you were playing cops or robbers or spaceman and aliens -- whatever it was, you weren't judging yourself. You were having a good time. And you put yourself completely into it.   One of the big things I see with a lot of grown up people who now suddenly wanna do this, or maybe they've wanted to do it for a long time, but there's a timidity. Oh, I'm a little, I'm a little scared. I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't want anybody to think this is silly or -- you gotta give yourself to it and that holds people back. Your ability to read can hold you back. Because especially in video games and voiceover in general, we are reading in the moment. We've gotta take the words off the page and connect them to somebody. So I have run into people who've come to me, not often, but a couple people, I've said, look, you don't need me. You've got this. Get your demo done, you can do it with me or somebody else. But you're ready. There's some other people I've worked with for a long time, and I see improvement, but it's slow. But if that's where you really want to go, and you are getting better and getting better, stay on the road.   Randall: Yeah.   Anne: Yeah. It's a journey. It's a journey. So you guys have an exciting event coming up at the end of April I saw for Game VO. Tell us a little bit about that.   Randall: Well, this really came out of an outgrowth of Dave and I; we talk a lot. We've known each other for a long time. And one of the things that we have not seen along the way is what I would call a throughput. There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, there's some wonderful things to do this, but you go to most conferences or retreats or whatever you want to call them, and there's not a real throughput. You get the promo person, you got the commercial person. And there's, there's some real value to that, you know, especially if you're working in multiple genres. But what we don't see anybody doing is, okay, we're gonna strip this down to the basics and take you through -- you know, you don't get to cherry pick. We're gonna take you through this whole thing. Okay. You went to drama school and you're like, and you wanna roll your eyes? I don't know about going back to drama school.   I had a student, I shouldn't even call him a student, an extremely well known voice actor who took one of my recent two-day workshops. And when I saw his name on there, I was like, really? Well, that's interesting. I wonder why he's doing this. And you know, the thing that was really interesting is there was a technique that really truly went back to original acting. And this is a guy who's a drama school, totally trained, accredited, all this other kind of stuff. He's done so much other stuff that he literally had -- now it was easy to getting back in there, but he had forgotten to some degree like, no, you have to start here. He's got all these voices that he can do. He's a wonderful actor. You know, if you had mentioned your name, maybe he'd be like, really? Well that's the point. Somebody like that even didn't have that beginning. So all this throughput we have not seen. And so the idea that we wanna do is take people all the way through what it takes to really truly be a video game voice actor, from let's start with basics of acting all the way up to we're gonna do sessions, and you can't skip the steps along the way. You've gotta do this to this, to this, to this.   Dave: I have to echo the same thing, that I've worked with students who have been on camera, on stage. And for them, the world of voice acting is completely different. And because they're used to memorization, and being in costume, and having another actor that they're working with, they are lost all too often when it's words on a page and a microphone. And sometimes it's just coming from this genre to that genre. If you're doing promos, TV promos, you can have a style. If you're a narrator, you can have a style. If you're doing commercials, you can have a style and work and do very well. With video games, style isn't gonna carry you but so far. You have to be an actor.   Randall: It's a bigger thing. You know, it's, it's actually a bigger thing. You can't have a style.   Dave: Style can be this big, but if you're gonna be an actor --   Randall: No, that's true. It's a range. It's not just a style, it's a range.   Dave: Yeah. And learning how to connect to that, to your range.   Anne: And now, so when is this event and how long is this event?   Dave: Well, it's called Game VO Mexico 2023. It is happening in Akamal, Mexico. That's on the Yucatan Peninsula. And it's the 27th through the 30th of April.   Anne: Okay. Three days.   Randall: Three days.   Dave: Three days.   Anne: All right. Three days of intensive classes, sessions?   Dave: Intensive classes, sessions, and it's gonna be fun. And in one of the most beautiful places in the world. We were doing some location scouting a couple of months ago. I was down there with Randall, and we went to a restaurant, and that night they said, oh, come back and watch the sea turtles make their little baby walk to the sea. It's those kinds of --there's iguanas around and toucans. You'll hear the monkeys in the tree. I mean, it's, it's an amazing place and it's very much outside of your norm. I don't know about you, but have you ever been someplace, you got outside of your house, outside of your city, a different place, and suddenly you could think differently?   Anne: Oh yeah. It'll change your life.   Dave: This is gonna be one of those places, one of those events that you'll be able to shed some things that have been holding you back and embrace some things that are gonna carry you forward.   Anne: I love it. So end of April, where can people find out more information and sign up for this?   Randall: Well, it's the website. It's gamevomexico.com. So just like it sounds.   Dave: Gamevomexico.com.   Anne: All right. Awesome. And for the BOSSes out there, you guys are going to give us a special coupon?   Randall: That is correct.   Anne: Just for the BOSSes. So if you guys want to, you are definitely getting a discount.   Randall: It's a $500 discount. So it's, it's basically 10%. It's a sizable discount.   Anne: That's awesome. Woo. So a $500 discount, you guys can go to that website and enter a coupon code, VO BOSS, to get that discount. That's amazing. So gamevomexico.com. Coupon code VO BOSS to get that discount. And how can BOSSes get in touch with either one of you? Let's say Dave, if they wanna get training?   Dave: Oh, I'm so easy to find, they can email me at davefennoy@mac.com. They can go to my website, davefennoy.com and get in touch with me, and they can check me out every Wednesday at 6:00 PM Pacific for Ask Dave Fennoy anything. I promise I will talk about this.   Randall: This is true.   Anne: Yay. And Randall, what about you? How can people get in touch with you?   Randall: The two easiest places, and I say easy because I've got the long email addresses. My company, what I do the direction through, is Hamster Ball Studios. So it's Randall, randall@hamsterballstudios.com. But on the other side, the stuff that I do as far as teaching and coaching and consulting, I probably shouldn't say coaching 'cause I don't, you know, Dave's the one on one guy. I'm more big macro, big picture, hey, wow, dude. But it's randall@thevoicedirector.world.   Anne: Awesome. Thank you, guys, so very much. This was so informative, so wonderful, and we so appreciate that discount. BOSSes, check that out. Gamevomexico.com. Use that code of VO BOSS, get yourself a discount. BOSSes, I want to ask you a question. Do you have a local nonprofit that is close to your heart? Did you ever wish that you could do more to help them? Well, you certainly can. And visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. Big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes like us three today. Thank you, guys ,so much again, find out more at ipdtl.com. Everyone, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.   Randall: Take care, Anne.   Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

A conversation between Jim Schleckser and Dave Warren Jim: Today we going to talk about several important business topics for CEOs with a long-term member of The CEO project and a friend of mine, Dave Warren. Dave is a serial entrepreneur. He started and owned, a couple of different businesses, but he's kind of a student of business. Dave really appreciates business as much as I do. Tell us a little bit about that business and why you started that business versus any other business you might get into. Dave: From the time I graduated from college, I was looking for a business to buy. The day I graduated, I found a partner and tried to buy the bookstore I had been working at, but quickly realized that, even with the best of intentions, if you didn't have a little capital. Then, contrary to my dad's advice, who had a 40-year career in the oil industry. His advice was, whatever you do, don't get into this business. And of course, like every good son, I just ignored him and got into it. At the end of the day, it's what you've seen and what you grew up with. So I got into the oil field, started out in field service, then got into manufacturing, and then into distribution. And then in 1995, I was working for a company in steel distribution and went to them and said, I think there's a different way to structure this business. At the time it was very transactional. I said I think there's a different way to put supply chains in place other than this transactional model that everybody's been using. I went to the owners of that business and said, what do you think? And they said we like what we're doing. But I felt compelled to try this and so I started it with two partners. We just started doing what we did, servicing the heck out of the customers and providing solutions. And they knew they could come to us, with issues or problems or things that they were trying, to solve, and we would come up with an answer. We kept reinvesting in the business. We got up to about 70 million in revenue over about an eight- or nine-year period. At the time, there was a lot of talk about the oil industry not going to be a domestic industry anymore. So, we figured we needed to get into, either needed to be a good, small regional business or we needed to expand the business and go global. So over about a period of 24 months, we did two acquisitions, one in the US and one a UK subsidiary of a French conglomerate. We tripled the size of the business. Each one of those was doing about 70 million in revenue. We basically put together a global footprint and looked at kind of the geographies of the products on the customers, and we did a three-dimensional matrix on what we wanted the acquisitions to solve. By the time we finished that 24-month period, we had solved most of what we wanted as far as what our vision was on how to service the market. We put in supply chains, support for manufacturing and operations on a global basis for people globally building, equipment for drilling, and downhill tools. Jim: Interesting. Follow the customer, right? If I see the customer migrating, I go with them, or I don't. What was the competitive advantage compared to the transactional companies that could do exactly what you could do? They could buy and they could sell, but what made what you did differently? Was it, was there an engineering element? What were the pieces that made that business different? Dave: Back to the partnering idea. We convinced customers to let us behind the curtain, we would talk to them about their forecast, and their bill of materials, and then tried to rationalize because every part was designed kind of as a unique part. With its own unique raw material. What we tried to do was, was rationalize and consolidate their spending into a smaller number of raw material SKUs. Then we would consolidate that demand over multiple customers and try to drive everything to a consistent supply chain inventory. So, we were able to buy by doing that and with the scale that we had, we were able to look at various customer demand points by region and then work with the mills and the suppliers to bring in higher volume. Plus, we were able to give the customer value by lowering their individual transactional costs. Jim: Did that translate into loyalty because you're trying to move from transactional to relational? Did it work or did they say, thanks for all the help, now let's talk about your price Dave: It worked for a while. But competitors started catching up. The business as you see now, even the oil industry cycles dramatically. It goes from a period of oversupply to undersupply quickly. In times when they were having trouble getting material, there was a lot of loyalty in times when there was a business downturn. There was kind of a diminishing loyalty on both the supplier and the customer side, depending on where we were in the cycle. Jim: Let's go over the capital structure, this is expensive stuff and you're holding a lot of inventory for these people. So, talk and tell us how you financed all that inventory. Dave: We financed it primarily with debt with the idea after we got things kind of rationalized, we got the synergies out of the business. We would deal by bringing in a partner to take some of the debt out. Unfortunately, it happens quickly, and demand falls off quickly. There's a huge supply chain requirement in place, and it doesn't happen overnight. There's a lot of capital that must be deployed and people need to have a comfort level that it's safe to deploy it and the industry's going to continue to be supported over an investment time. Jim: So, you brought in partners, was that debt and then later equity, and obviously it's a cyclical business, so you hit a downturn. How did your equity partners or your debt partners react? And what did that look like? The reason why I want to go down this path, Dave, is there's some learning in here I think for people about what can happen good, what can happen bad in that, and maybe what you want to do before that to protect it. For more of this conversation about business models, capital structure, and managing investors, listen to this episode of The Lay CEO Podcast. Thank you to our guest, Dave Warren Helping companies position for growth and scale-ability, Dave has led diverse and multimillion-dollar revenue streams with businesses in Texas, Mexico, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Edmonton (Canada), the UK, Dubai, Singapore, and Korea. With expertise in capital formation, capital raises, and scaling, Dave founded a global family distribution and manufacturing company in the mid-90s growing it from zero to $500M in sales and 800 employees at the peak of our business. They grew exponentially in the alloy metals industry in the highly volatile oil and gas sector. In this journey, Dave has built and scaled businesses and led great people. Dave has driven growth organically and through acquisitions. His expertise includes growing early to mid-stage businesses with an established track record and adding product lines, growing the customer base, and expanding global operations.

This week we're exploring the fascinating and controversial topic of flat earth theory....again. This ancient belief, once relegated to the fringes of society, has seen a resurgence in recent years thanks to the power of the internet and social media. On this episode, we'll take a deep dive into the history of the flat earth movement and examine the arguments made by its supporters.  We'll explore the evidence (or lack thereof) supporting the idea that the earth is not a globe, but rather a flat, disc-shaped plane. Whether you're a believer or a skeptic, you won't want to miss this revisit. Join us as we challenge our assumptions about the world around us and explore the flat earth phenomenon. Did we change our minds? *Intro sound clip features comedian Dan Cummins If you have any questions or topics you'd like to see the society cover, please reach out at Contact@hushhushsociety.com   You can find all our audio, blogs and drop sweet ratings at www.hushhushsociety.com Find our Video Content on our Rokfin Leave us a review on Apple, our website, Podchaser or GoodPods You can grab Hush Hush merch and help support the show on Patreon Link up with the society on social media:   Facebook   Instagram   Twitter    Join our Discord and chat with us   TRANSCRIPT Flat Earth 2   [00:01:00]  Dave: Greetings, Hushlings. Welcome back to the Hush Hush Society Conspiracy Hour. Mike: Where we journey into the world of conspiratorial mysteries and dark truths Dave: I'm Declassified Dave Mike: and I'm Mystery Mike and as though is we're joined by our fellow globetard Slick Fronk Sanders. Fronk: The Earth is probably round how you doing? Dave: it's going. Are things going around today? Mike: Quick question flat Earthers. How do boomerangs work on your flat plane? Fronk: Boomerangs are flat.  Dave: that got him. If you didn't notice today, we returned to the great debate in this episode. Is the Earth round? Is the Earth flat? Fronk: Hushling's, uh, in case you weren't [00:02:00] aware, we visited this topic in season three and completely shat all over the flat plane and we believe we should revisit this mother of all modern conspiracies, seeing as though it's such a big part of conspiracy culture. Dave: it's getting even bigger, even though you guys probably most definitely are gonna take a second dumping in this one. Mike: not as bad as the first. Dave: Not  Fronk: Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Mike: we've discussed how there are different phases to being a flat earther. I'm guess I'm still in stage zero and we were in stage one in May of 2021. let's go up around to stage two But before we search for the horizon and fall off the flat plane and search for God in the sky under the spotlight sun, you can always find us on our social medias, Facebook, [00:03:00] Instagram, and Twitter Dave: You can also find everything hush hush society on our website, www.hushhushsociety.com. From episodes to links to merchandise, and the ability to drop a review or leave us a voicemail. We hope we get some after this episode. Mike: Hmm. Please do. Dave: Yeah. Fronk: And we keep mentioning that we are now also a video podcast. You can not only. To us, but you can watch us, you can see our faces. You can get that expressional action that you might not get from just an audio recording. And to find those episodes, you just gotta go to Rock Fin. It's, it's very simple. Rock fin.com. There's even an app. And in the search bar you just put in Hush Hush Society. You'll find us nice and easy. And there you can find all of our videos. you hit the notification button. You get notifications when our videos come out. Check it out. Mike: And just one last thing before we move on to the flat plane, we just [00:04:00] want to give a quick shout out to our newest patron, Gabrielle May. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. Fronk: Just in case you're new to this, we're gonna do a quick little recap for you on what Flat Earth theory is, and essentially, in a nutshell, the earth is flat rather than round. Pretty self explanatory, although it's made its appearance throughout history. The theory gained popularity around 2009 and has continued to grow ever since. Dave: It is regarded as one of the most controversial conspiracy theories in existence. Why claim that our earth is flat and not a globe easy? That's because it looks flat and feels flat and is surrounded by 200 feet of ice blocking us from traversing across an infinite plane or falling off the edge. Sounds correct, right? Fronk: I mean, yeah, that's what I've been made to believe. That's that's what it seems like Mike: Yeah. Riding on the back of a turtle through the cosmos, but the cosmos [00:05:00] doesn't exist, so where's the turtle going? Anyways,  according to believers, NASA and the ruling elite protect the ice walls from people attempting to climb over and fall from the disc. Can't make it up. They also believe that earth's gravity is an illusion, and that objects are driven up by a mysterious force called dark energy, rather than spinning and being stuck to a surface, Fronk: But on the other hand, there are countless photographs, videos, and images from astronauts and the International Space Station that kind of seem like evidence to show that the Earth is round. But these are not considered real evidence and are allegedly faked by the government or the ruling elites Dave: Now before we move on, flat, earthers already pissed off at our description in the beginning, Fronk: probably. Dave: we wanted to pull you in, but we'll make it as [00:06:00] fair as possible with some of the talking points that we're going to go over.  Now, Hushlings, there is the flat Earth Society as well as thousands of others from around the globe in groups. In addition to independent researchers, even though there is evidence to contradict some of these arguments, they are dismissed as fabrications of around earth conspiracy, along with stars, planets, galaxies, space, and gravity, all being a part of the facade of where we live. Mike: That is my biggest thing when it comes down to a debate between a flat earth and someone who believes that we live on a globe, is that it always results. In a flat earth are saying, well, that's what you've been told. You've been lied to. You're believing a lie that's being told to you, which is the old faithful of all conspiracy theorists, is that you're being lied to. That's all well and good, but at what point do you turn around and say, the [00:07:00] science is being lied to you. Nasa, we know lies to us. We know they fabricate images. We know what they do. But again, that's more of an argument that NASA is filled with bunch of liars. But at what point do you look at it maybe there is evidence that it's a globe or maybe there is evidence that it's a flat plane. There has to be a certain cutoff point where you stop saying, well, you're being lied to. That's what they want you to believe. That's what they're fabricating the science. They're fabricating this. They're fabricating that. How, and this has always been my issue, how do you talk to a flat earth and say, what piece of evidence would it take for you to say that it's a globe Dave: Pictures. Mike: pictures? , but then you show them a picture of this is what our earth looks like. It's a globe. Or you show them video or you show them anything. Well, that's been fabricated. It's always like this deniability to go against what they believe in. Like you, you have to deny [00:08:00] it. You have to deny it because it shakes the entire foundation of what their belief system is, especially when it comes to a flat earth. But then they always revert back to, that's what the Bible says. That's what the Bible says. I'm sorry, we, we've been over the Bible many times. We all know that it's been changed a thousand times and it's a book.  Fronk: not only that, but that's what they're making the Bible say. That's what certain people are interpreting the bible to say, and you can make the Bible say a lot of different things depending on how you decide to interpret it as a person. And if you're interpreting it as, they're telling me about the flat earth and so be it, Dave: This episode is gonna focus a little bit more heavily on some of the things that Mike and Fronk just mentioned, talking about NASA and the why would they lie and why would they fake and indoctrinated us as kids to believe that it's a ball. , and these are major [00:09:00] talking points that I've learned over the last year and a half since we've done this, other than just the physical evidence. We have the physical evidence if you're going to go by the, mainstream. we'll go through a bunch of stuff. I think we'll talk about religion too. So Mike, save those nails, buddy. Mike: We'll look into some of what we just listed and more throughout this episode, and it strongly suggested you listen to our first crack at this crust to understand where some of the historical beliefs come from and a lot of other things about this theory, mainly the science. But let's give this another oscillation, shall we? We're gonna literally hit some of the proposed theories and then firmly spit some facts. be prepared to, uh, confirm or deny your belief. Fronk: Before we completely dive into the flat plane, we're gonna talk about the planet as we've been taught in a traditional sense. Our Native [00:10:00] Earth is a terrestrial rocky planet, correct? Yes or no? I mean, whether it's flat around truth,  It has a dynamic and active surface with mountains, valley, canyons, you name it. All the different geographical structures and a variety of other features. It has water covering 70% of its surface, as well as harboring thousands of life forms, and it has a unique orbiting satellite arm. Dave: it has a circumference. Remember this number Hushlings 24,901 miles. And it shares our solar system with eight, sorry, Pluto, eight other planets and is rotating at around thousand miles an hour while orbiting our home star. Now this is where flat Earthers start to deny our existence on a spinning ball. we're orbiting around our sun at 67,000 miles an hour, all while zipping around the center of the Milky Way, roughly at [00:11:00] around 490,000 miles an hour. And the biggest claim, you can't feel it.   Mike: Well, that's just what we're taught in school. Unfortunately, most of us didn't escape the clutches of the Rockefeller Education System. There's that name again. Yep. He created the General Education Board in 1902 at the cost of 129 million. It's a lot of money back in 1902. It's a lot of money today and provided major funding for schools across the nation and was very influential in shaping the school system. Also, he's quoted as saying, I don't want a nation of thinkers. I want a nation of workers. Sounds like my pause. Fronk: And that speaks some deep truth because school does indoctrinate the nation into the trap of society. Once you hit like 10th grade, you're already filling out college applications, colleges that you're gonna be in debt to for the rest of your life, that you're gonna have to work for the majority of [00:12:00] your life to pay off for that job that you'll be working for the rest of your life. And it's this endless cycle. So that's definitely perpetuated by some global elitist. I get that to an extent, maybe the indoctrination portion of it. Dave: Well, from the beginning. Which classroom have you ever been in that didn't have a globe?    Fronk: In 1928, John D Rockefeller Jr. Financed an expedition to the South Pole as a British secret service. Agent Rockefeller knew perfectly that no South Pole existed, but people were curious about the true shape of the world. From 1956 onward, Antarctica was completely controlled by the Pentagon. Hence the Antarctic Treaty. And anybody visiting this chunk of land without permission was shot on site. Admiral by who we've talked about extensively, died mysteriously in 1957 and perhaps had a timely demise before he could tell the truth about what the South Pole. Mike: When it comes to the[00:13:00] Antarctic treaty and being shot on sight, who is shooting these people on sight? Fronk: Snow snipers. Those drones from Star Wars that landed on Hoth Mike: , that's a lot of land to patrol in order to watch for people.  Dave: remember. Antarctica is 5.2 million square miles as well. Mike: That's what doesn't make sense to me. You're gonna be shot on sight and that's another part of the Antarctic treaty that I also don't understand. Who is physically stopping you from going there? The only thing that's physically stopping you from going to Antarctica is it costs a lot of money. To either charter a boat that would go there. most people don't go there. Most charter boats don't go there. You could do a flyover, but that's only partial. Who is physically stopping you besides your bank account? Dave: I did see a video recently of some guys on a boat that were stopped. I think they were stopped by the New Zealand Navy [00:14:00] or the Australian Navy, and they were turning him around and you can see like. Ice in the distance or something like that. And I don't know if there was just like an iceberg that was out there that they were near, but the allegations on TikTok was got turned around at the bottom of the world, cause I believe it's, there's some degree, and I'm gonna sound uneducated saying this, but I don't know the degree, I think, but there's some degree at the bottom of the world. That you can't go. But the Antarctic treaty, it contradicts itself because the Antarctic treaty was supposed to be a demilitarized zone. No military stuff. No commercial, nothing. It was supposed to be strictly for research. Fronk: So why is the Navy there? Of who? New Zealand? Dave: It was either New Zealand or Australia Fronk: So what is the New Zealand or Australian Navy doing there? Dave: Well, they're close to Antarctica Fronk: Yeah, but isn't a non-military zone. Dave: But there's only military scientists maybe not all military scientists. You got like, Noah [00:15:00] scientists and stuff, and I'm sure NASA is down there, the Nazis, they're all down there. You know, you  got everybody. Antarctica looks like a continent to me, and there's a lot of pictures of it. And are they fake? I am. I'm not on the plane, so I don't know. . Why would it matter and why would they lie? The largest argument of why these elites would lie to us is most likely there's more land, more resources, maybe even unlimited resource. And lands beyond the ice shelf or walls, as well as the suppression of how powerful of beings we are, which can kind of be a different argument that has nothing to do with flat earth as well. thoughts on that? Fronk: I could get behind both of those points to an extent in the shoes of a flat Earth, for example. Yes. If you told me that there was unlimited resources, we're talking oil, we're talking the purest water in the world. We're talking minerals that are used to power the world's [00:16:00] electronics, whatever, energy generating methods that we might have unlimited supply of that which would completely destroy not only the US dollar, but the world economy, which is what the alleged elites thrive off of. And if it's not money that they thrive off of it is leaching our fucking energy. And we've talked about that a lot. And if we were to unlock some sort of crazy. Secret about ourselves or humanity as a whole. That might be incredibly enlightening to a lot of people or disturbing. I could see it going either way, but if, if a bunch of people woke up and they were incredibly enlightened, that could be bad for the reptilian negative energy blood suckers. Dave: I don't think it would go well for anybody. I think we always do ask this question a lot when we talk about this as is, would it change our everyday lives? And we usually say no, but it would, because we [00:17:00] probably have a massive economic shutdown. religions would collapse. There'd probably be some type of total anarchy that would happen and then we'd have our own epiphanies of being like, not really upset that I was wrong, but shit I was lied to as well, part of the Doy group. And that would be a shitty day. would it end everything for me? No, it would change everything for sure. But I think the unlimited resources part, I could see somebody hiding that, , we did talk about Admiral Byrd and Admiral Byrd went through, supposedly into the hollow earth, could he have misinterpreted and gone through a crack and found more land. Who knows? In the writing The Iron Republic, written by EW Barrington and published also in 1902, another one of that year with the education system. It was published in Florida Magazine, and it said that an explorer went through a crack in the ice walls and found an advanced civilization after being lost for over a month at sea. So that [00:18:00] means he went through the ice walls and there was more ocean,  Mike: Have there ever been any, any pictures or video of the ice wall or beyond it? Fronk: Uh, people take pictures of. Ice shelves and try to say that they're the ice walls, but at the same time, those could very well just be ice shelves or very large icebergs Mike: Makes sense. Makes sense.  Dave: I wanna see a flight going around the whole whatever, 76,000 miles it's supposed to actually be. Just banking around the whole rim. But you can't go there because the military will shoot you down in a de militarized. Mike: I still think that there's plenty of ways to get there. And we talked, who do we talk with? That had went to Antarctica? Was it Mark Fronk: on a cruise with like their father. Yeah. Mark O'Connell. Yeah. Dave: Yep. Mike: O'Connell said that , he went to Antarctica with his family. Dave: San Diego Padre's pitcher's there right now.  Fronk: Yeah, but he, he also mentioned that it was like the only [00:19:00] part of Antarctica that they'll let a civilian on and it's like this tiny little peninsula and they've got the little, novelty pole.  Like you could go up and touch it and take a picture with it. Yeah. And they got little stuff, penguins and shit. Dave: could it just be a simple explanation why we don't bring people there? One, you'll die  Fronk: , yes, it's very extreme terrain, there's tons of extreme terrain that we're allowed to go to that you would probably die in if you weren't very well equipped. Mike: Yeah, it makes sense that the only reason that they would be stopping people from going there, besides the massive, endless amounts of resources that they're hoarding from us, would be that they just don't want people going out there and fucking dying.  This brings up another allegation that even the word extraterrestrial means extra terra or more land. Trying to hold some weight to the notion this has been taught to us. We see in the film The Next Level by David Weiss. [00:20:00] He meets with an older woman named Ruth. She's 102, God bless her, from Connecticut, who was in tears claiming that she was taught flat Earth in school, in Hamden, Connecticut, and now feels vindicated and better because of his truths. Dave: she was like, lost it. Mike: like real, real emotional about it. Dave: Yeah. Really emotional about it Mike: Okay. We just mentioned the Rockefeller education system and him saying that he doesn't want a nation of thinkers. He wants a nation of workers. , in the 1920s, if she was taught that the earth was flat, She would've been learning from that education system. Dave: True. Yeah, but I don't think that there's actually, I've looked and looked and looked and couldn't find any definitive evidence that was saying that they actually taught that in schools. Because even in 2022 curriculums across the country are not the same, even across the [00:21:00] same states, depending on the size of your state, they're not the same, especially when you get to advanced levels like college professors are teaching what they want within that curriculum, How in 1920 were they all taught the same thing when there was still tons and tons and tons, tons of schools. , that's the thing that gets me,  she's 102. Could she have just been like, yeah, I saw that once and she saw it on a cartoon in the seventies while she was in her sixties,  Fronk: nonetheless, I do find it difficult to wrap my head around because it was David Weiss who did that interview or whatever, and he brings up a lot of stuff about flat Earth. I listen to a bunch of his talks and shows that he went on to and whatnot, and he brings up all of these points and , he tells people to just, look into it. You gotta look into it yourself. You gotta do your research. , you go to do this research and obviously if you're looking into stuff like this, you're not going to [00:22:00] Google. You're not using Bing, like the go to search engine for anything that you can't find is duck, duck go. And he's been saying that Duck, duck go is starting to censor things of this nature. So, like Dave, I went looking for what the global education was like in the 1910s, the 1920s, and. Again, like you said, no definitive proof. Is it a censorship thing or is it the fact that it was just not taught as flat in the 1920s? Dave: There's also allegations that say that, it was the thirties and even in the sixties through certain education systems. , I almost bought David Weiss's app now. David had contacted us and let us know how he thought about us. I think in the next level, , it almost looks like somebody's trying to sell something and maybe this woman really did feel vindicated Ruth if she's still alive or not. but I don't know, check out the next level. It's an interesting take on flat earth and [00:23:00] there's a bunch of other proponents that I'd never even heard of that have some interesting talking points. Mike: my beef when it comes to David is he did reach out to us. He reached out to us a couple times, especially after our flat Earth episode. And essentially just berated us through email it's the usual argument that I, especially for some odd reason am on the receiving end of arguments with flat earthers is just yelling and anger and just being pissed off consistently. and he was not too happy, as Dave said with how we covered it in our talking points. He said, oh, it's the same talking points. Well, it's the same talking points with flat Earthers too. you talk about the Bible, you talk about nasa, you talk about, it's like, it's, it's the same talking points because we're talking about the same fucking topic.  Of course we're gonna have our sides to it and of, and flat earthers are gonna have their sides to it. It's just the way that it is. That's how you have constructive. [00:24:00] Conversations that go back and forth with conflicting beliefs. Dave: I feel like it's a lot of frustration that , you're just not getting it. Fronk: I feel like he rails Coke and like smashes Globes in his free time, like buys globes from Goodwill and just fucking destroys them in the parking lot and then drives home  Dave: beats them with Louisville slugs. Just smack. Smack.  Mike: I can't wait for our next email correspondence after this one. Fronk: dude. It's not gonna be an email. It's gonna be a voice message and he is gonna be all fucking jacked up out of his mind.    Dave: Before we move on to like the major talking points we gotta talk about what Mike mentioned earlier where a lot of the stuff that is talked about goes back to biblical cosmology and creationism.  Mike: Yeah. And that's always been my biggest talking point with discussions with flat Earthers is explain it to me I will give you my counterpoints and you'll give me your points and we can go [00:25:00] back and forth, but complete your, persuasion of trying to make me see that it's a flat plane. Complete your argument without using the Bible. Every single fucking time. Every single time it ends in, well, it says this in the Bible and it says this, it always ends up being that let's put it this way. I've never met a flat earth that wasn't also at the same time a Bible thumper. Dave: I've met two types. I feel like there are conflicting points to, flat earthers even they step on each other's toes a little bit. They might not, not get along, but I think there are some folks that definitely don't believe in the biblical cosmology and it's just a physical thing. But every time you go back to, if it's a physical thing, that's a structure that's not a planet. It brings me to the question, even a non-religious person. It brings me to the question, well then we're talking about who created it, [00:26:00] not just the science of planets and, gas and particles coming together for, from a accretion. We're talking a whole different thing. Now. We're talking about, well, if it's a structure , and this is not what we think it is and this is not what I think it is, then it had to have been manufactured structure. We build structures. using that type of verbiage, brings even me to being like, , now we're in the religious realm or the faith realm. Fronk: You want me to blow your mind right now? you know what's easier than creating a whole universe writing fucking lines of code. Bam, bam.  Mike: Yeah, there it is. There it is. We should just bring all arguments of flat earth back to simulation theory. Fronk: That's where I, that, yeah. Prove to me that it's even physical and then maybe I'll consider whether, the shape is round or flat. Dave: Let's talk about curves. Fronk: Right. All right. Let's talk about the voluminous crevices and curves that our mother Earth provides. Right. The idea of a flat [00:27:00] earth stems from a number of viewpoints, and the most fundamental is to rely on one's own sense, to determine the true nature of one's surroundings. The world appears flat. Clouds, bottoms look like they're flat. Water looks like it's flat, and the sun moves. The stars are always the same positioned exactly how they always were, and all of these sensory cues indicate that we do, in fact, live on a flat. Dave: I'm not an astrophysicist and I'm not a  Fronk: Are you  sure?  Dave: Maybe, maybe, maybe in my other existence, the 500 of 'em. I'm a failed astrophysicist, but I do have a telescope and I've had it for quite some time and I'm pretty good with it. And it's Fronk: the fuck? Dave: eh, the stars not moving. I know that there's a difference between absolute, uh, motion. A difference between [00:28:00] relative motion, and I'm pretty sure that the way that the stars move, but their whole argument is, is that since everything's spinning at astronomical speeds every night, we would see different stars because we're just whipping around and seeing different things. So why are the stars the same? And it does get you thinking, well, why are the stars the same? Well, I'm not a professional astronomer, so I can't really explain that. But I would say it has something to do with relative motion where everything's moving in conjunction instead of just this vortex of insane speeds..  Fronk: In my peanut globetard brain, I'm more so thinking the speed of light and how long it actually takes for the light from the stars that we're seeing to travel here. I mean, yeah, we've been seeing the same stars for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, but at what point were those stars emitting that light? How long have those stars been dead for, and how long is it gonna take for us to see new stars again? [00:29:00] I can't answer any of those questions for you, but I'm pretty sure that's. Dave: Valid point. Mike: Also in the grand scheme of time, humanity has been around a fucking blink in universal time. again to Fronk's point here, we're seeing the same stars because we're living 80 years and that's it. As opposed to the billions and billions and billions of years that the universe has existed and that that light has traveled and those stars have either been born, exploded, died, and disappeared. , we're seeing nothing, nothing. Dave: Well, that goes back to you being an insignificant being and that being suppressed. There's that argument. We'll have that later. We'll fight about it. Mike: there, there won't be an argument. We are insignificant beings.  Even if you took it back to a creationist argument, we are fucking insignificant. We are insignificant, we're [00:30:00] nothing. If we were something we would still commune with Gods, we would still commune with universal spirits. We would be. Something more than fucking meat sacks traveling through the world going, oh, I wonder what job I'm gonna have next, that I'm gonna work fucking 40 hours a week at and pull in a menial salary and take care of my 5.2 fucking kids, and then eventually retire at the ripe old age of 70 years old. And that's my life. How special am I Dave: Well, that's the system that you're locked in. Mike: system or not? Even if I had no job, even if I was just wandering, enjoying my life, going to these wonderful, exotic places, just doing everything that I wanted to do. At the end of it all 70 to 80 years, that's what I get. That's fucking it. in those 70 to 80 years, when am I seeing God? When am I [00:31:00] seeing a hint of any extraterrestrial, any, any extra dimensional, any religious, fucking spiritual guide? Anything. Anything.  when I'm not, fucked up on drugs, Dave: psychedelics. Fronk: God tier moment. Mike goes, have you ever given an ant food? Throw that bitch in there.  Dave: A lot of people see that as negative, and I don't really see it as negative that we're that insignificant. It's kind of the same argument that I make about the flight paths, which we'll quickly touch on is, well, the, the plane has to keep dipping down to keep going. Have you seen how small a plane is to how big the earth is? Mike: That's one thing that they don't understand is fucking perspective. You don't understand  perspective.  Dave: I'm glad you brought that up because what Frankie said a couple minutes ago about viewpoints perspective, seeing, if the clouds appear flat, water is flat, that's called using an empirical approach or an approach that relies on information [00:32:00] on your senses.  What's your feeble little human garbage eyes can see? And if you can't see the curve, then it doesn't exist. They use mathematics. I am. Stupid with math. The math is if the earth is round, there should be a degree of curvature, eight inches per mile squared. one mile would be eight inches, two miles, 32 inches, three miles, 72 inches, four miles, 128, and so on.  128 inches is about 10 feet of curvature. So that would be, four miles away now? 10 feet. A considerable amount when you're looking at a boat on. Water the water line to the top, say, let's say an aircraft carrier is probably 60 to 90 feet. You'd have to be at least around 20 miles to not just see the flight deck of that ship going over the horizon.  Then you got the whole, you got the bridge, you got everything else. You got all the radar you're probably looking at 120 feet at least to the top of, all of the structures on that ship. How many miles is that? . That's the thing. Another thing with the insignificance is [00:33:00] that we're tiny as fuck. Like how can we see anything? If you're five foot 10 and you're looking at something how far are you actually gonna see Mike: but what about the Zoom, Dave? What about the Zoom? Some of those cameras, they can zoom way, way, way, way in. They take those cameras and they zoom, zoom, zoom, and they go, well, that city is 150 miles away. There's no way that I should see it because of this curvature. And this camera is picking it up perfectly. So how do they work? Dave: I think they use the Chicago skyline for example. And I didn't do the experiment and look on Google Maps , and see the different distances, but you gotta remember the Sears Tower, whatever the fuck it's called now, it's like well over a thousand feet tall. and they're like, well, you can see the whole thing you. In those pictures that are shown as examples, you cannot see the entire Sears Tower. There is hundreds of feet of displacement in Chicago. Like New York has a [00:34:00] very tall fucking skyline. But you could still see those buildings and they're there, and on top of it, you're getting atmospheric disturbance. You're getting a layer of almost a mirage layer.  Mike: Dave was just going over the math of the entire situation, it's 67 feet per 10 miles. Now, before we move on, we have to mention that there are ball earthers or globes or globe tards that do argue that this equation is misused by flat earthers. And is the equation of calculating a parabola, not a full sphere. Dave: The guy who said that this is Misused was something that was found on the Michael Stata podcast and apparently himself and another guy that were on there, one was like an F 18 pilot, and then he's got certain hundreds and hundreds amount of hours as being a pilot. he had mentioned that the equation was misused and used the parabola as an example, that you're talking [00:35:00] about something like this instead of something that's a full circle even if you're talking about it on the curve, , it's still a parabola, even on that surface. Even though the equations are right and the math is right to calculate the curvature of the earth with its circumference that's known.  Might not be accurate. And uh, who did that? Aristophenes did that. And I know Flat Earthers is gonna say that guy didn't even fucking exist. which maybe he did, maybe he didn't. That was 2000 years ago. Who knows? Fronk: just to be fair to the flat earthers, right? We can't nitpick what false history we believe and don't, we do tend to say that history could have been falsified many times. If history has been erased at any point in time there is the possibility that this dude was made. Mike: using this model, a person standing on a spherical surface with eyes five feet, 11 inches above the ground, can [00:36:00] hypothetically see the ground up to about three miles away, but a person at the top of the Eiffel Tower at 896 feet can see the ground up to 36.6 miles away. Dave: Well, they're higher in altitude, Mike: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.  Dave: but the argument is that you can't see using the calculation, you wouldn't be able to see because it's dipping. I think the argument is wrong, and I'm not a mathematician and I'm not good at math, but from what my I see is that almost like some of these people are seeing it smaller than what it is. I don't think they're really getting how big this thing is and how small we are. So even at a 900 feet, Yes, you can see almost 10 times as much in distance, but you're also almost a thousand feet in the air,  Mike: Again,  perspective.   Fronk: If the degree of the [00:37:00] curvature is found to be the same everywhere on earth's surface, and the surface is in fact large enough, the constant curvature demonstrates that the earth is a. Now what about water? James Underdown, executive Director for the Center for Inquiry, Los Angeles worked with the Independent Investigations Group, a nonprofit dedicated to investigating exceptional claims using scientific methods. A boat based target with horizontal stripes was used in one of these tests. Dave: He's quoted as saying we sent a boat out on the water, and the farther it goes, the more the stripes disappear. That was supposed to demonstrate the curvature of the planet, but most flat earthers disagreed generating considerable debate. The biggest reason for these arguments with flat earth, obviously it comes from flat Earth, Dave(David Weiss), and it's all about perspective, as we said. The ground would never obscure distant objects on a flat earth. It should be possible to see all the way to the edge of the [00:38:00] world, right? That is the question that we would be asking. The answer we get is the atmosphere is opaque. Now, using the vernacular atmosphere is almost a conundrum in itself, and you ask, well, why did you use that? Well, we don't have another word for it.  Mike: Why not just make up a word like you fucking make up your own beliefs?  Just fucking do it. Just do it. . Make up a new word. It's very easy. It's done every day.   [00:39:00] Ad break [00:40:00]    Mike: Let's move on to another major fight in this, the position of the sun, sunrise and sunset. In case you were wondering, the sun is always above the Earth's surface in both models, Yet in the flat model, it travels in circles around the Earth's north pole, which is also, its. The seasons are caused by the expansion [00:41:00] and contraction of these circles. What about latitude?  Dave: What about latitude? I mean,  that would  Mike: about latitude  Dave: right? Mike: Hmm. Dave: The largest circumference of latitude on this planet would be the equator. Correct?  Mike: Yep. Dave: And then you have the tropic cancer and the tropic of Capricorn. The midpoints. I don't know that seems pretty, easy to explain. Maybe I'm just stupid. Could  be,  Mike: Globetard Dave: yeah. Fronk: Fucking idiot. Do some research Mike: Look into it. Fronk: where, show me where, show me where I could read about this that isn't on the app.  Mike: In the Bible, Fronk: Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Here we go with the fucking Bible again. Mike: and books from the  17 hundreds  Fronk: They considered the sun to be much closer than 93 million miles and possibly even as far as 3000 miles or as close as 300 miles and moves in a circle or a helix pattern because the earth is supposedly accelerating upward, obviously toward the sun [00:42:00] at 9.8 meters per second because they don't believe in gravity, and that explains gravity away. with that being said, the sun must also be accelerating in the same direction as this hypothetical earth vortex. Make sense? You guys got that? Dave: instead of us spinning with things spinning around us and us spinning around something else and then that spinning around something else, which is relative there's a really big graphic that's always shown on every documentary, every video, and it's like the sun being shot out of a. With everything else just like around it, it looks like a DNA strand, most globe tards, know that that's not how motion works with celestial bodies. that one got me and always gets me, is every time that's shown. I'm like, oh God.  Fronk: other astronomical bodies moving in such a pattern? We have like really high powered telescopes Mike: Because space is not real.  Fronk: [00:43:00] Oh, shit. I forgot. I'm, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You got me.  Okay. All right. All right. Right. All right. Dave: no space. No space. We have to remember that throughout this whole episode, there's no space. Fronk: Yes. Yes. Mike: if you take space out of the equation, introduce God in the Bible, and just ignore all known fucking science for the past like 300 years, you can be a flat earther. Fronk: wait is it no space or it's just the sun and the moon and the earth, or , is it None of that and it's just plain earth with our spinning moon, sun clock sort of thing happening, Which one is it? Do flat earthers believe either the barrel bore theory or the plate theory? Dave: Everything's contained in a system. Fronk: It's one in the same Dave: and everything above us is, I guess, the abyss, because there's a lot of arguments that, like with this Artemis program, whether it's fake or not, we'll talk about NASA in a little bit, but whether it's fake or not, Rockets [00:44:00] don't work in a vacuum apparently. but they're actually using, their own inertia to move in a vacuum. But I guess things don't work that way according to some. That brings us to sunrise and sunset. I don't want to get too far into this cuz this can take hours and hours and hours to argue about, let's talk about sunrise and sunset real quick.  Fronk: Unlike a bunch of these other points, the day and night cycles are actually kind of easily explained on a flat plane. The sun theoretically would move in circles above the North Pole. Or around the North Pole, and when it's over your head, it's day, and when it's not, it's nighttime. The light of the sun is then confined to a limited area on the earth, right? Because it's right above you. This claim never held any weight for me in particular because it can be debunked with science.  On top of this, all of the planets and stars aren't actually what they appear to be like [00:45:00] big rock balls in space or giant balls of gas, but they're actually luminaries. Yet. We also hear a lot of people say, well, we don't know what they. Dave: Stars and planets are one of the biggest things that cannot be explained yet. We can explain them with telescopes. We've been talking a lot about movement. We have to talk about heliocentric model, which is the one that we supposedly live in and not the geocentric model, which is the one that flat earthers live in. When we are confronted with the question of how the earth is able to orbit the sun, and it's not a sphere it's pretty simple. The earth actually doesn't orbit the sun, as we've been saying. This is so, because instead of the sun being the center of our solar system, our planet is actually the center of our solar system or controlled environment. Mike: In reality, we have Helio Centrism, also known as the Heliocentric Model. It's the astronomical model in which the earth and planets revolve around the sun at the center historically, [00:46:00] Helio Centrism was opposed to geo centrism, which placed the earth at the center. now we've hit the firmament. Fronk: In the cosmology of the flat earth. The disc shaped planet is covered by a dome whose edges stopped just beyond the roughly 145 foot high ice wall of Antarctica. And these stars are fixed on this dome while the sun and moon, which are only about 31 miles in diameter, revolve about a 3,100 miles above the earth. Dave: Now, as we said before in biblical cosmology, the firmament is a vast, solid dome or semi solid dome created by God during his creation in the first six days To divide the primal sea into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear, which surrounds the earth or frozen water, I've heard this a lot with the biblical cosmology stuff, is that it's explained during day one, day two, day three, and they even say in the Bible, God created the firmament. I [00:47:00] believe it's on ver bran's headstone, as we've mentioned previously. I think it's a lot of wordplay and interpretation,  Mike: We also mentioned back in Hollow Moon, if you've listened to that episode about the Zulu tribe, where the firmament or atmosphere rained down to earth.  Our flat earthers saying that the sky is liquid possibly. Clearly, we know that the Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% argon and 0.1% of other gases. Dave: Now, quickly, recently, I've heard a lot of arguments in quite a few different shows and videos not just one proponent, but multiple proponents on this theory. And a lot of 'em will say, well, the atmosphere itself is just a different version of water as it is up in space, a whole different version of water. Because they use the example of if you go to the deep oceans or certain lakes, there's different [00:48:00] salinities of water. You'll have heavier water on the bottom, different pockets of water. the atmosphere works the same way and they say, because it has the same elements in it. Now, if our atmosphere is made up of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, yes, there's hydrogen in that, because if we need water, we need H two O, which does happen in the atmosphere, Fronk: shit. That's why they sent U-boats to space it's water. Dave: oh. Fronk: Oh, Dave: That's it.  You got me.  Mike: done. We're done.    Final thoughts, boys? Fronk: Thank you Hushlings. Dave: Yeah, that's it. Mike: Okay, so we're talking about the firmament currently. Now I just want everyone to know the actual definition of a firmament. So the firmament is the vault or arch of the sky. The firmament isn't necessarily something that is physical. It is something that is viewed. the [00:49:00] arch from one horizon to the other is the sky. That is the firmament. So when everybody's saying, oh, firmament, they're talking about the firmament, they're talking about something that's physically there. No, that's a viewpoint. The firmament refers to horizon. To horizon. The arch of the sky as you see it from one end of your viewpoint to the other Dave: Makes sense. There's a lot of that too, where it said that you're, uh, you have a personal viewing bubble and I think that's misinterpreted as what you're actually, what you can see you go up a 1500 foot mountain, you look around, you can see 360 degrees.  Mike: that's your firmament. Dave: that's your firmament. Fronk: One bar from Suicide Boy's last album. One of them goes Dome. So good. I think she think the earth is flat mouth like the fucking firmament. She got my eyes rolling back. There you go.  Mike: it says it all. Fronk: [00:50:00] It says it all, it says it all your, your mouth has a firmament. Mike: Show me what that firmament do. Fronk: land ho. We have hit the ice walls and the absence of the poles along the edge of our local area exists a massive 150 foot ice wall. This ice wall is on the coast of Antarctica, and The wall is absolutely gargantuan, made up of solid water, ice that surrounds our world and holds our world's oceans in.   And the South Pole does not exist, whereas the North Pole is just a giant mountain called a hyperly that you can't visit. Dave: The ice walls were discovered by Sir James Clark, who was a British naval officer and polar explorer who was amongst the first adventure to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the south magnetic pole between 1768 and 1779. [00:51:00] Upon confronting the massive vertical front of ice heat famously remarked. Mike: "It was an obstruction of such character as to leave no doubt in my mind as to our future proceedings for we might as well sail through the Cliffs of Dover as to penetrate such a mass. That's what she said. It would be impossible to conceive a more solid looking mass of ice. Not the smallest appearance of any rent or fisher. Could we discover throughout the whole of its extent and the intensely bright sky beyond it, but too plainly indicated. The great distance to which it wreaths, southward " Dave: apparently it took him three years or so to do one of the journeys and he circumnavigated the globe at 77,000 miles. what if he did it three times and did [00:52:00] 77,000 miles? That's the one thing that I've always thought is that, was it one trip  Fronk: And he just didn't know Mike: But again, in the 18 hundreds, let's say that this guy goes and he encounters an ice shelf, would he not think that was an ice wall? Dave: yeah, Fronk: like, oh shit. Well this is the edge of the world I suppose. Mike: there's no going past this. My ship can't go through that. Dave: I mean, yeah, that would be logical. Mike: I think this is what we said in the first one, a lot of these arguments for a flat earth revert back to like this 18 hundreds knowledge. Let's look at this book from the 18 hundreds. Look, they mentioned the firmament. Let's look at this. they talk about ice stones and blah, blah, blah. Fronk: The future is a lie. . The truth lies in the 18 hundreds. Reject modernity, Now all of this would of course, imply that Antarctica isn't at all what they say. And we've [00:53:00] mentioned this quite a bit about the Antarctic treaty already and the Antarctic bases and all of the secrets that they hide and you can't go there. You're not allowed There. Only scientists. Yeah. That's where they're hiding the edge of the.  Dave: Let's board a plane real quick and try to go to Antarctica. I know we say we can get there by ship, but two major arguments about airplanes with the flat earth theory is one, there's no round trip flights to Antarctica. And I think we covered this briefly in our first one where we had said, Antarctica fucking sucks. And that's probably why there's no round trip flights and how a lot of the Southern Hemisphere flights cannot be explained. And I believe we went over that a lot in our first episode. And I still stick by all of what I thought about that. Now, the other question that comes up with this theory  one, can you see curve in a commercial aircraft? And two, the aircraft always has to be pitching nose down after a [00:54:00] certain amount of time. Those two arguments come up major in this theory. So I wanna get your thoughts on do planes always have to tip downward as you're flying? Cuz you've all been on flights before, Fronk: No, the plane isn't nose diving or it doesn't feel like it anyway. It doesn't seem like it's nose diving by any means. Dave: but you would feel it. You can feel drop in altitude when you're starting to descend and you feel that, whew, almost that weird weightlessness when they drop a couple hundred feet or a thousand feet pretty quickly. You can feel turbulence, obviously. , I don't think that it necessarily pitches downward after a certain distance because I think, like I said earlier, planes are tiny and the earth is huge. So I don't think there's that much effect of a plane having to move when it's floating on top of a surface of air. Fronk: If a plane pitched downwards while at like max [00:55:00] altitude, wouldn't it just start losing altitude? Wouldn't you just be going towards the ground or am I being peanut brained? Dave: If planes were going in the straight path following the Earth's curve, then they would fly off into space. That's what they say. And I think it's simpler than that. Planes fly in a certain area from 35,000 to 50,000 feet, especially commercial aircraft in a certain layer of air that's thinnest. Which is why they can move as fast as they can, but I don't believe that they're pitching because they're so tiny that everything is going to appear flat at 35,000 feet cuz the earth is so big. Mike: , they're maintaining a certain altitude from the ground, so they're not pitching anything. They're just going with the natural atmosphere of the earth. Dave: Gravity.  Mike: Yeah.    Dave: The plane thing never, never made too much sense to me, especially with the flying off into space. If you didn't compensate for curvature, it's because the Plains Center [00:56:00] mass is always perpendicular with the ground and the plane is so insignificantly small. That you will not notice those changes. You notice left and right banks on planes, , you take a direction moving towards another city, you see it, you feel the whole plane go and you're looking towards the ground. If you're ascending, you feel that inertia you're getting pulled up into the air, especially on takeoffs. Or if you're descending, you feel that, oh, the pilot goes, we're gonna be descending in a couple minutes, and all of a sudden you feel that that drop, you feel that motion left, right, and vertical but you don't feel those nudges that they say that they're doing. So I don't think that that happens. I just think the center mass of that plane is fighting against gravity to keep it up. It's a boat in the sky. Mike: even if they did, that's a continuous compensation. So it's not like they're flying a certain distance and then going, oh, well I'm eight inches above where I was before. I need to adjust. Even if that was the truth, they would just make manual [00:57:00] adjustments as they went. So over that period of time, a half inch, a quarter inch, whatever you wouldn't even be able to tell in the first place if that was the case. Fronk: And that would only be if you were flying like across the world. I'm sure it's even less so if you're flying from somewhere on the east coast down to like Minnesota or something, it's gonna be even less noticeable if you're traveling somewhere that local. Dave: You're only traveling a couple hundred miles. Fronk: Yeah, exactly. Mike: I'm sure the figures are out there, but how many flat earthers are from America versus from the rest of the world? Dave: Good question. Mike: just wondering. Dave: I don't know the answer to that. I would say there's a lot in America. America is a very conspiracy driven country at the moment, and flat earth boils down to every other conspiracy. If you believe wholeheartedly in this, you believe everything else, the lies, everything is fake. Your entire [00:58:00] existence is fake. that's from what I get Fronk: That sucks. And then, and then from that point where do they go with that? They yell at other people about it or We're gonna briefly go over the eclipse aspect of flat earth theory. Now, we all obviously know what eclipses are. That's when the moon aligns with the sun and the earth and blocks out the sun. You know the deal. and remember that the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun. It's also about 400 times closer to the earth than the sun is. Is that coincidence that this astronomical phenomenon happens? Uh, Dave: Well, I can tell you from the flat earth side that that is almost impossible.  Mike: It's pretty impossible either way. Like it's pretty coincidental. I will give it to them that when you're talking about the sun and the moon being these like perfect distances and these perfect sizes and these per that's intriguing to say the least. I will give them. Dave: Which we did go over[00:59:00] Hollow moon theory if the moon was placed here, it was placed here on purpose, but then that would give weight to some type of, maybe not creationism, but some type of external control or external observation, which I think all of us are on the fence with that.  That could be, it could not be, Mike: Again, prove to me that any of this is real Dave: So there's two types of eclipses. There's solar and lunar eclipses. Now, the way solar eclipses work is that the moon orbits in between the sun and the earth. And when that occurs, obviously the moon blocks out the sunlight. You see the corona bought a bing. You have a solar eclipse, and the moon also casts a shadow on the earth. Now, a lot of the times it's told that the moon can't cast this little tiny pin prick shadow that goes across the earth. But if the moon is relatively 200,000 miles away, why couldn't it?  Mike: According to flat Earth theorists, this astronomical phenomenon is [01:00:00] actually a glimpse of a mysterious shadow object that orbits the sun and occasionally passes in front of the moon. From our point of view, could it be planet X Nibiru? No. This object is known as the anti moon. That's new Dave: another random object in our solar system. We could go on and on about eclipses, but we have to talk about one of the biggest fallacies of our education system. Gravity, Mike: not real. Dave: not real. Now, one of the most well agreed upon theories is general relativity. And it is the theory of gravitation developed by our boy Albert Einstein, who was apparently a conman according to flat earthers. And between 1907 and 1915, he figured all this out. The theory of general relativity says that an observe gravitational effect between masses results from their warping of space time. Gravity is still just a theory to us. I guess we can all be on the fence [01:01:00] on it cause we really don't get it. And I think scientists have , admitted that they don't get it,  Mike: Well, didn't recently they say that they had to like rework that entire thought process for some discovery that they had found that the theory of relativity had to be, had to be rethought or it was not necessarily wrong entirely, but partially, I guess., it had to do with the way that a black hole was working, where for the first time they saw a star coming out of a black hole. Fronk: Yeah, I saw that it was being regurgitated. They saw light coming out of a black hole. That's right. Mike: Things are happening, man. Whether you believe in space or not, it's. Pretty wild. Fronk: Newton's love gravitation states every point Mass attracts every single other point mass by a force acting along the line intersecting both points. I don't know what that means. The force is proportional to the product of the two [01:02:00] masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Exactly. That's what I've been saying this whole Mike: Sounds about right. Thanks boys. Well, what is gravity? According to this theory, it's stated that the earth isn't pulled into a sphere because the force known as gravity exists in a greatly diminished form compared to what is commonly taught, which is that we're being pulled down to the center of the earth while. The flat Earth is constantly accelerating up at a rate of 32 feet per second squared or 9.8 meters per second squared. As we had previously mentioned, this constant acceleration causes what you think of as gravity, but it's actually caused by a universal accelerator known as dark energy or Etheric wind. Never heard of Etheric wind. That's interesting, Fronk: time's that post Taco Bell shit's my etheric wind. Dave: [01:03:00] Furthermore with this we hear words like density and buoyancy a lot in these theories arguments, which is why things fall to the ground that are heavier and explains rockets, which are thought to actually be filled with helium and have a pyrotechnic show. that proves that all things fall at 9.8 meters squared.   Dave: All right boys, we're getting towards the end of our flat earth expedition here. But we have to go back in the sky. That brings us to rockets and satellites. As we just mentioned. Proponents of flat earth theory believe that satellites totally exist, but cannot be seen from the ground and are actually held in the atmosphere by helium balloons. Hence why NASA is the largest consumer of helium and they sometimes crash into the planet, which we call them weather balloons. And I guess that would explain the weather balloon phenomenon.  Fronk: Satellites in low earth orbit are constantly fighting gravity. According to science, some are geographically fixed and keep their [01:04:00] orbit by balancing two factors, their velocity, which is the speed required to travel in a straight line and their gravitational pull to the earth. To resist the stronger gravitational pole, a satellite orbiting closer to the earth requires more velocity. And of course, we're not going to get out of this debriefing without a little bit of NASA sprinkled in that bitch. Mike: Yes, good old nasa, our friends over there, professional cgi. It's widely assumed that humans have never left the Earth's atmosphere. In fact, we've never left earth and entered space because we lack the ability to do so in the first place unless you're a Nazi and a U-boat. Most of what society has been taught about space is completely made up or greatly exaggerated. By the government and or the elites. There's also the claim that humans have never landed on the moon. I'm with that, and that the infamous moon landings witnessed by the entire world in [01:05:00] 1969 were a sham. Fronk: Okay. I'll give them that. A major claim is that any pictures from the Apollo 11 mission that show that our planet as a sphere in the distance were fabricated by the government and nasa and NASA's mission is not to hide the shape of the earth or trick people into thinking it's round or anything else of the sort. Dave: Well, that's what NASA says, right?  We obviously know that there's some type of space travel conspiracy, whether it's more advanced or it doesn't exist. Possibly Nasa's mission is to create the illusion of space travel in order to, cover for the military, and their dominance in space. One thing we forgot to mention that I thought of real quick when you guys were talking is the quick notion on gravity. There's a lot of flat earthers that will say, well, can you jump, when you jump off the earth, you a hundred, 200 pound person jumping off the earth. Do you come back [01:06:00] down? And was it easy to jump? Then why is gravity so strong? Fronk: that's the whole argument of like, why does Gravity hold our planet's, oceans On  Dave: Yeah. Yeah. If it can  hold all this water and all this mass,  why can you jump off your roof and hit the ground? Mike: Because there is a different pull depending on the mass of the object.  Dave: Mike wins a gold star Fronk: gold sticker for you. Mike: boys, let's get into our final thoughts. Everything that was on Reddit, we've been through, we've done this whole thing. I wanna know the final thoughts as we get into stage two of becoming a flat earth. are we now believing that gravity is not real? The sun is a, lamp and uh, and we live on a flat plain, surrounded by an ice wall. Dave, are you a flat earther? Dave: No. sadly, I am not a flat earther. I think it's an [01:07:00] interesting theory that opens up a lot of more conspiracies and there are some valid questions, but I think a lot of it has to do with our lack of actually being able to see things because we are restricted beings. Uh, the one thing about flat earth theory that I find really fascinating is the suppression of information, the hidden things. And I think that's the conspiratorial part that really pulls me, believing that it is a different shape or an infinite plane or a snow globe, or, flatterers is gonna get so mad at me for saying that because we don't believe it's a snow globe. It doesn't look like a pancake. They all have different theories and a lot of it goes back to religion. A lot of it goes to creationism. A lot of it goes back to every other conspiracy you've ever heard of. So for me, still, I still think we live on a planet. the definition of planet is what we live on. Is it a perfect sphere? I think that's proven that it's not a perfect sphere.[01:08:00] I'm not a scientist, but I've done research and research and research and supposedly it takes up to two weeks or so to become a flat earth. I've been doing this research since like the end of July, and I'm still not convinced. wanted to give it a fair shake. Didn't wanna be a douche bag. Would invite any flat earth to come on and talk to us. We'd love to have you on, but You didn't get me yet. Mike: I will take my final thoughts, a complete left turn here. I don't care. I don't care whether it's a giant paella pan or if we live on a dodge ball. I, I don't care. I don't care. Maybe it's the blue pilled part of my brain that still exists. I don't give a shit. It doesn't change anything. I'm still gonna wake up in the morning and have to go to work, have to pay my taxes, and eventually I'm gonna fucking die. That's just the way that it is. I don't care if we live on a flat plane, I don't care if we live on a globe. It's just the way that [01:09:00] it is. but I don't think that we live on a fly plane. I'm just gonna say that I don't think that I, I do think that there is a lot of cover up of our former history. That much I believe is true. I do believe that NASA is filled with a bunch of liars and they do fabricate things including, setting up these videos where they're watching astronauts float around, but the water stays in a cup. That's an interesting one. , I do think that they do composite images together and they are a bunch of liars that I completely agree with. . I love you whether you're a flat earth or not, but no, it's a no for me. Fran, give us your final thoughts. Did you become a flat earther in this episode?   Fronk: No, I didn't. , I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say that I tried to give flat earth theory, the benefit of [01:10:00] the doubt, but I tried to stay open-ended, especially towards like the beginning of the episode. I was just trying to like see it from both sides and I still do to an extent. And you're right in saying that their best argument is the space shit and nasa, but, that can't be all you're going off of here, because that, lends to so much other shit besides just the shape of the planet.  And not only that, if you're like sold on the shape of the planet, then you've been deceived. You know what, I'm gonna pull a flirter and tell you what you've been taught on. The internet is wrong, and it's all code. You've been tricked into thinking that what we live on is physical and that it has shape. There is no shape. I've never even been out of the country. You can't even convince me that Australia's real, let alone the, the, the fucking shape of the  Mike: you're partial flat earther because they don't believe that Australia is real either. Fronk: [01:11:00] Oh, no. Australia's not real Mike: listen, if you're in Australia and you, uh, you live there full time, reach out to us. Send us an email. Even better a voicemail, because I just want to hear the accent. Send us a voicemail and say, Hey, yeah, I exist. I'm here. This is a real place. Dave: Clearly they exist. They're number three on our Spotify Mike: That's right. Thanks Australia. Fronk: No, I, I never tried to doubt Australia. It was a metaphor, but Dave: Our Hustralians down under, Mike: That's hilarious. Dave: , if we offended you we're sorry. Well, I partially am. Mike: I, I, listen, I tried this episode. I think that I was better than the first episode. I didn't sit there and say anybody was an idiot or any of that stuff. like I said, you believe what you wanna believe, but on, at the end of the day, I don't think that it really matters. Fronk: And if it makes you feel [01:12:00] special, by all means,

What can I do today to make my partner’s life more worth living? In this week’s episode, Dave and Liz discuss the importance of celebrating anniversaries in our relationships. Marital drift happens to the best of us. Liz shares these 4 tips; be authentic, attentive, appreciative and affectionate for improving your connection and making anniversaries more meaningful. Insights: Dave: It’s important for couples to come up with their own rituals or celebrations to create ways to connect. Liz: I am grateful that my parents stayed married. They could have easily divorced but I am grateful they didn’t, they showed me what it takes.  Invites:    • Couple's conversation: Discuss the anniversaries that are important in your relationship and how you can be more intentional about how you celebrate them.   •   Be authentic –Refrain from comparing your marriage to another. Celebrate what makes your marriage unique and then “vow to keep the vision alive.”    •   Be attentive –Explore the following questions with your partner: “What was the best part of last year?” “What can we improve from the past year?” “What do you hope to see me do different in this next year?”    •   Be appreciative –Create a couples’ gratitude journal. Take turns writing something you appreciate about your spouse and leave it out for them to read.    •   Be affectionate –Talk with your partner about ways they would like you to express affection. What will you do to improve those areas?   Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: strongermarriage.org https://podcast.strongermarriage.org   Facebook: StrongerMarriage.orgInstagram: @strongermarriagelifeDr. Dave Schramm:https://drdaveschramm.comhttps://drdavespeaks.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrDaveUSU Facebook Marriage Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579 Facebook Parenting Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/542067440314642 Dr. Liz Hale: http://www.drlizhale.com/   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Check out more from The Junkees on Nearly.com.au Cheerio to Wonthaggi, but not here to talk about that. However, here's the FB video Kitty and Dave mention. Later on there's some behind the scenes stories from Fisk Season 2.   Feature Act - Whittaker's Creamy Caramel Very good. Sophisticated. Good enough to go in "Just Get Some".   Sub-feature Act- Cadbury Dairy Milk More with Nuts and Toffee   Blind Tests Dave for Kitty - A Twistie from the vending machine from a university Kitty for Dave - It's kind of like a Duo   Sweet Sweeeet Memory Jogger - Big Boss Cigars/Candy Sticks No longer "cigars". Confined to history like so many lollies whose names' were from another time.   Facebook Group for The Junkees is here - so many great photos!   Big shout out to Audio Technica - The Junkees use Audio Technica AT-BP40 microphones. Sounding good!   Follow Kitty! Instagram / Facebook / YouTube Follow Dave! Twitter / Facebook   Tell a friend about the show or leave a review wherever you can.  Get in touch with a suggestion for Dave and Kitty - hi@nearly.com.auMore about the show: https://www.nearly.com.au/the-junkees-dave-and-kitty/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dave Inglis, CEO of Threshold Leadership, joins the podcast to talk with Dr. Laura about the magic of strategic solitude and how we can honor our deep yearning for effortless belonging by paying attention to our non-traditional currencies and asking ourselves the right questions. Dave talks about his journey into this work and how he is deeply passionate about sharing what he's learned about success at the intersection between life and business. Through his Strategic Solitude experiences and coaching for individuals, couples, and groups he show leaders how to turn foundational business systems and strategies into deeply transformational personal practices. Throughout the episode Dave talks about the triple bottom line, how we can start to live our “eclectic millionaire” life now, how to become aware of your triple bottom line, and how all of the best relationships start with the one you have with yourself.  What You'll Hear In This Episode: Dave talks about the turning points in his own intersection of business and family where he shifted his reality and saw a need for creating a strategic solitude experience for leaders. Why we need solitude and the magic of getting strategic about when, how, and why we do it. How Dave moves through any resistance to change and growth from the executive teams that he works with. What a triple bottom line is and how we can expand our vision when we tap into it. What it looks like to create space in our life for ceremony for self. How there is always a very primitive yearning for this sense of connection and unity. Strategic solitude as a homecoming of authenticity; space to be able to come back to and be in the presence of your trustest self. The key ingredients behind sustainable and impactful leadership. What effortless belonging looks and feels like in both our community and the relationship with ourselves. How there are non-traditional currencies in life worth building wealth in and to know with authority, what investments you are making.   Quotes: “Once you start to understand how to come back to yourself and meet yourself, I believe you can do that in so many different ways. And it's really about attuning to the practice.” — Dr. Laura “When you raise the bar for yourself, you show other people that it's possible.” — Dave “It's deeply important to embrace the place of curiosity.” — Dave “In my experience, there is always a very primitive yearning for this sense of connection and unity.” - Dave   Take Dr. Laura's Free Quiz! — What's your Divine Feminine Sovereign Style? This quiz will help to reveal your soul-guided sovereign style so that you can harness your feminine spark with more confidence and courage than ever before. The quiz is quick but the results are epic — potent, robust, and exactly what you'll need to harness your unique feminine style in a way you've never done before. Get ready to speak your truth, walk in your fire, and own your gifts like never before.   10-Week Signature Program for Women: ROOTS + The Sisterhood ROOTS will help you tap into your feminine superpowers and remember who you are, why you are here, and why it matters. This dynamic program walks through intuition, connecting with your inner knowing, healthy boundary-setting, personal core values, finding your voice, speaking your truth, expansion, self-compassion, identity, your future self, and the frequency of your rise. You were never meant to do this alone. Are you ready to do the best work of your life?   Sovereignty, Self-Compassion, and Standing In Your Personal Power. It's time to walk your path. Get on the WAITLIST here.   Continue On Your Journey: Soul Inspired Gurl / Instagram / Book A Coaching Discovery Call With Me   Dave Inglis: Website | Instagram | LinkedIn   Giveaway: The Triple Bottom Line Playbook   Dave's Bio: Dave has taught thousands of leaders the methods and mindsets of innovation and personal transformation at organizations including the Royal Canadian Air Force, Canon, General Motors, Manulife, Wawanesa, the Globe & Mail, Fairfax, Morneau Shepell, and many others. His contagious energy, candor, and vulnerability allow him to connect with the hearts and minds of executive teams and leaders across sectors.   After exiting his first business, Concussion Toolbox, Dave studied entrepreneurship and innovation with Stanford faculty and co-founded Wilfrid Laurier University's campus-linked accelerator, Laurier LaunchPad. This success led to Dave building the corporate innovation training practice for Canada's largest innovation center, Communitech, where he worked with executive leaders to commercialize opportunities for innovation and growth and build teams that thrive during digital transformation and benefit from uncertainty.   Today, Dave is CEO of Threshold Leadership. Dave's one-of-a-kind expertise at the intersection of positive psychology, corporate innovation, and high-performance, guides leaders and teams through Strategic Solitude experiences to grow their health, wealth, and relationships.  

When we find any kind of success in our business, we tend to stick to what we know to keep ourselves in the black. But sometimes to reach those levels of success we started out looking for, it takes a whole change of perspective. My guest this week is Dave Zajdzinski, and he's all about sharing his superpower of scaling our business to reach those superhuman numbers we all hear about. One part of that perspective shift is ridding yourself of that limiting belief that you as the rainmaker need to do everything yourself, or that your clients expect and demand to do business with only you. Having a team is about building truest, not only with your associates but with your clients as well. Dave and I have a great conversation about what scaling looks like, how we apply it to our teams, and what it's done for our business and our work/life balance. Listen in! About Dave Z:   Dave Zajdzinski brings 13 years of real estate experience to home buyers and sellers throughout Arizona. He has helped hundreds of sellers and buyers meet their real estate goals and is consistently ranked one of the top realtors in the Valley. As a Certified Distressed Property Expert, Dave specializes in short sale transactions as well as traditional home sales, from raw land to multi-million dollar properties.   Quotes and Takeaways:   “What I want to do is deliver is an amazing experience for our people. I've realized that I can do that through other people. But instead of making it so that somebody else handles all of it, you still retain control of it when you are using a showing partner. You're delivering a high-quality experience for that client, and that's what they really want. It's really all about what the consumer wants.” – Dave   Using this system, I tell people that this will inspire you to go prospect. Once the process becomes so much more enjoyable, it'll inspire you to get more clients.” – Dave   “It's just a mindset shift. When you find out that this is an option then how do you execute it? When do you execute it? How do you build that right model? I'm a big believer in the process, so I'll only build with somebody who wants me to help them build a team, because there's only one way I'm going to do it.” - Dave     You can reach out to Dave though his team's Facebook page at: https://www.facebook.com/ZTEAMAZ/

Episode 17: Dave Atkins Salesforce Career Conversation with ROD. Dave has worked in IT since 2003 and moved into Salesforce in 2017. Dave shares his story as both a candidate and employer in the technology space and why money shouldn't be the main motivator when it comes to your career. Lee Durrant: Hello, it's Lee Durrant here with another episode of RODcast where, as you know by now, we dive into people's Salesforce careers to find you little nuggets of inspiration that might help you in your Salesforce career. I'm pleased to say that joining me today is Dave Atkins, who I've known for a long, long time. Hi, Dave.   Dave Atkins: Morning Lee, are you well?  Lee: Good, good, good. Thank you so much for agreeing to share your Salesforce career with us or your career before Salesforce as well, and then obviously, any little tips you've got along the way will be brilliant. I was thinking perhaps you can, I know you and I go back a long way, perhaps you can give us a high-level intro about you and then before we dive into where it all began, and then bring us up to date. A little intro would be great.  Dave: Sure, yes. Okay, where it all began? Well, I came through a software background, usual sort of development and design way back in the day. I was introduced back in the mid-'90s, to something called CRM. Now, I'd never heard of it. Nobody else appeared to have heard of it, and it was something entirely new. It took some time for that to, shall we say, come to fruition and it was quite weird, really because the first real introduction to Salesforce I had, I was working for a software company, and they wanted to try out CRM. I did a bit of research and came across this thing called Salesforce, which was in its very, very early stages then.  Lee: Yes, if you're talking mid-'90s, they didn't start til '99.   Dave: It was '99. Yes, '99 they started. I think this by then was probably about 2000, 2001 something like that. Strange thing was that one of my colleagues in my present company said the same thing and he described it as when Salesforce was nothing more than a glorified address book which was way, way back.  We adopted that and obviously, in those days, you didn't have the infrastructure around it that you have today so everything we did, we did ourselves, we found that it was very customisable and it worked well, it worked well as a sales tool. Something that we could track customers on, track their purchases, and their prospects but it was a very, very simple system then. I just moved on through.  Dave: This was a company called GAVS. Which I think you may remember.  Lee: I remember GAVS.   Dave: That's right and I was working with them and really, it was an internal system we needed to use something to track sales. That's how I got my first taste of CRM and of Salesforce.  Lee: It fell on to you that it's to be that person to get it to work?  Dave: Yes, I was literally chief cook and bottle washer. Everything, I had to do. We did it ourselves and obviously coming from a software background, it was interesting for me to do that and interesting for me to become involved in the business side of it. How we use CRM.  Lee: As I said before to you, I'm going to go off on tangents here, but I looked at your profile even though I've known you for a long time and I kind of know your profile well because obviously we've worked together for so many years in terms of me either recruiting for you or finding new jobs so I know your profile. More often than not you refer to yourself as a project manager.  Dave: Yes.  Lee: T  hat leads to my first question that is a bit off-topic in terms of your career anyway. If you're called a project manager but you're doing what you did with Salesforce, there's so many different things you can call yourself because obviously to do what you've done just to build that from nothing for GAVS, sorry, it's so much more than project management, isn't it? 

Check our Dave's book, Lesson Planning for Language Teachers, at https://amzn.to/31HJtpkWhat happens if the important decisions about planning get left to coursebook writers rather than teachers? How much of the coursebook should schools tell teachers to use? And what can you do if your school doesn't let you deviate from the prescribed materials? Dave Weller, author of “Lesson Planning for Language Teachers” and friend of the podcast discuss.Ross Thorburn: Welcome back, Dave.Dave Weller: Hurrah! Nice to be back.Ross: Thanks. Dave and I were having a conversation a couple of nights ago, and we got talking about teachers uses of materials, right?Dave: Yes, perhaps in the over‑reliance of materials in the classroom.Ross: It reminded me of this quote from Ian McGrath, who says, "It's been argued that if teaching decisions are largely based on the textbook and the teacher's book, this has the effect of deskilling the teacher. If the person doing the teaching cedes to the textbook rights have responsibility for planning, he or she gradually loses the capacity to exercise the planning functions."He says, "The teacher's role is trivialized and marginalized to that of a mere technician." [laughs]Dave: It seems over my many year's teaching and training, one observation is that when I see teachers who have been encouraged to use, only use and teach from the materials they have. They seem to develop habitual actions in the classroom that they do without thinking without reflection. There is definitely a parallel there between the quotation from the graph that you read.The teachers executing their plan without really understanding or taking into account some of the learners. [laughs]Ross: At the same, it's quite obvious from a management point of view, why is a school you'd want to provide as much support as possible for your teachers? Both in terms of maybe getting teachers to teach as many hours as possible. You could minimize the planning. You want to ensure some minimal level of quality.Dave: Exactly. It comes from a good place to provide more materials, and more support is a wonderful thing for the schools to want to do. Especially from the terms of the quality of the class that the students have. At least if you know the teachers are using materials and following a strict pattern, then at least the students will reach some minimum level.It seems to be that there's a limit to downsides of perhaps hiring newer or less skilled teachers. It also can limit the upside, I believe, of letting those teachers then develop over time, because they're not allowed to.Ross: Absolutely. Over the next few minutes, how about we talk about how to find that balance between giving enough support, and then just limiting teachers to technicians?Dave: Sounds good.Ross: Great. From what you were describing earlier, obviously every teacher starts off as a new teacher, and every teacher, therefore, needs a lot of...Dave: I was born ready, Ross.[laughter]Dave: Not everyone's Dave Weller, though, are they?Ross: Obviously, there's an advantage to new teachers getting a lot of support, isn't there?Dave: Absolutely, yes. We often forget how intense an experience it is for teachers who travel halfway across the world. They're dealing with culture shock, new environments, new colleagues, and they're thrown into the classroom, the day after they arrive, when they still [laughs] have jet lag.In those situations, there's a lot to be said for the school providing a lot of support for those teachers until they can find their feet.Ross: I guess typically, what might that look like to describe so we're all on the same page here, something that's becoming more and more common in my experiences is giving the teachers not even like a recipe book, but like a PowerPoint or something to follow that your job as a teacher is to flick through this.You don't even necessarily even have to read the instructions because they're already on the PowerPoint for you. You might have suggested timings for just about everything, really almost like idiot‑proofing, teaching.At the extreme end, I've had managers asking me, "Can you write a script for the teachers?" The teachers, all they have to do in the class is read out the script. It's impossible for anyone to teach a bad class.Dave: That's interesting. Remember, that's with technology. Back in the day, I remember, when I first started, you were given the course book, and that was it. You had to pick things from there. You were given a certain guideline. Maybe each unit takes three lessons. There were six pages, so you do the math.[laughter]Dave: You went from there. You had a lot of autonomy over what to choose, how to sequence a lesson, you can move things around. You did have to rely a lot on your more experienced colleagues, which perhaps taught that course. Before, to give you ideas, it encouraged a definite interaction and collaboration, the staff from the people sharing ideas.Then I remembered a few years later, when maybe an update happened, course books are suddenly accompanied by teachers notes. First, people, the experienced teachers didn't use them at all. I just flicked through and pfft.[laughter]Dave: You turned your nose up at the book. We found that newer teachers would arrive and be very, very interested in pulling it out and teaching those lessons, as is until they became used to it. Then they found that they began with collaboration with input from their more experienced colleagues.They had more interesting ideas to try newer ideas, and they saw the benefit and the effectiveness of those in class. It naturally moved away from the teacher's notes. It's like training wheels on a bike, I guess.Ross: Obviously, the issue here is if the training wheels remain forever, then...Dave: Or mandated.Read the rest of the transcript here

As designers or developers — even product makers — when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail. WordPress is certainly in an inflection point. Where as the software is evolving, read: gutenberg + fullsite editing, the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is. I feel like that's a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years now. When you unlock it's power of custom post types and fields with a dash of REST API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data. Yet with an interface that I struggle to drag a single block into the 3 column of my page layout. Today's guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress, specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years but that usability struggle I mentioned earlier? Yeah…that's caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform you may have heard of before on the show before — Webflow. Welcome today's guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of designing a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it. Episode transcript [00:00:00] Dave: switching tools is, is not for the faint-hearted, it's quite an expensive process, isn't it? In terms of well sunk cost in terms of what you've already. [00:00:08] Put into the amount of time and energy that you've put into learning tools that you've previously used. I also had have still, a multiple six figure a year business teaching WordPress teaching, very specific tools, WordPress and elements are, that combination elements or page builder. [00:00:25] Matt: This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by foo plug-ins or specifically foo plugins, foo gallery. You can find it@foo.gallery. There's a new pro commerce plan, and it gives you two way integration into WooCommerce. So if you want to sell photos, you can sell photos with foo.gallery and woo commerce. [00:00:47] It makes your job. Super easy, especially if you're a photographer. I just had family photos taken the other day and I looked at the big conglomerate website that my photographer sent me. He said, man, it would look so much better if you. Right through WooCommerce, especially if you use something like foo gallery, check out food, art gallery, and learn more about their pro commerce plan. [00:01:09] Check out their WooCommerce integration. They have a great way to watermark and protect your photo galleries. Check them out and thank them for sponsoring the show. It's food, art gallery go-to food art gallery today. Start selling images with foo gallery and. [00:01:27] As designers or developers, even product makers when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail. WordPress is certainly in an inflection point right now. Whereas the software is evolving Reed Gutenberg in full site, editing the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is. I feel like that's a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years. [00:01:50] When you unlock its power custom post types and fields with a dash of rest API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data yet with an interface that I struggle to drag and drop a single block into a third column of my page layout today's guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years. [00:02:12] But the usability struggle that I just met. Yeah, that's caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform. You may have heard of before on the show web. Welcome today's guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of devising a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it. [00:02:34] You're listening to the Mer report, a podcast for the resilient digital business builder. If you'd like to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/matt report. And buy me a digital coffee or joined the membership to jump into our private discord server with others. Chatting it up about the. [00:02:48] And greatest in our crazy WordPress world, that's buy me a coffee.com/maryport. And thanks to Fu plug-ins for supporting today's show. Check out food gallery food art gallery for more. Okay. [00:03:00] Here's my interview with Dave.  [00:03:01] Dave: I had a lot of resistance, a lot of inner resistance to partly because, switching tools is, is not for the faint-hearted, it's quite an expensive process, isn't it? In terms of well sunk cost in terms of what you've already. [00:03:15] Put into the amount of time and energy that you've put into learning tools that you've previously used. But I mean, I also had have still, but, I had at the time, like a multiple six figure a year business teaching WordPress teaching, very specific tools, WordPress and elements are, that combination elements or page builder. [00:03:35] And so it, it really was kind of. It, it, it was, it was a real kind of crunch time for me for thinking that I have got to the point where I cannot use these tools anymore. I'm finding that I actually I'm finding that. I'll talk about the details in a moment, but I can't in all conscience recommend this particular combination of tools that I am well-known for and, very well paid for I can't carry on. [00:04:05] So, believe me, it was quite a, quite a risk. I think I remember one of my students say, and I've mentioned it's something in, in the, in the little private Facebook group that I've got for one of my courses. And he just said career suicide. Nice. So, [00:04:23] Matt: for thanks for the vote of confidence. [00:04:25] Dave: Awesome. I mean, it, it probably had a point, you probably had a point  [00:04:29] Matt: What was that? Oh, just real quick. What was that concern for you to say? You know what, I don't feel like I can recommend these tools anymore. Was it more a, an ELA mentor thing? Was it more a WordPress thing? I mean, we're in this chaotic times where it's like, Gutenberg is still trying to get better full site editing's coming in. [00:04:48] You layer on the complexity of a piece of software that wants you to build a website a certain way? Are we just hitting a perfect storm here? Or was there something specific? [00:04:57] Dave: Yeah, possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I had got to the point where I started, well, I've, I've been using WordPress since 2007, something like that, so for my own personal projects and my own client projects, I'd use WordPress for, for a good long time. It was when I actually decided to teach online. I long story, I think we've covered this plenty of times before, but for 10 years I was actually a school teacher. [00:05:23] I'm a, I am a qualified teacher, so I was a qualified teacher, teaching young children in the, in the UK. Like in the nineties and early two thousands. And I then got into web design and build up a great business, but it just decided that I just miss teaching so much. So for me, around 2016 ish, I decided I actually want to get back into teaching, but I want to teach the thing that I've been, I've been working with the web design tools that I'll be working with for, for, for many years, what, what a perfect combination. [00:05:54] So, I did a lot of research, long story, but I'd discovered elements or which was [00:06:00] just in its earliest stages at the time. And thought this combination of tools is brilliant for, for my target market. My target market is always non coders. People who don't want to code and probably feel a bit nervous about the prospect of. [00:06:14] Th they, they want to build websites, but web design technology, web design tools, web development, isn't something that is natural to them. It's not something that they are completely off-air with. And. So I always see my job as taking people who look at all this stuff and think, oh, wow, this is so complicated. [00:06:35] And possibly quite scary. It's my job to say, it's all fine. Just do this, this and this. And it all works out. So in a sense, I'd particularly chosen WordPress and elements or that particular combination, because it just seemed right for my target. Now over the gears, elements or has added on features and features and features WordPress itself, as you say, is changing dramatically. [00:07:02] I think ultimately that will be for the good of WordPress. Definitely. I know a lot of people complain about Gothenburg, but I think it is getting there, but it got to the point where I started to think would I in, in, in all kind of conscience, I suppose, would I, conscious now. Recommend to somebody who once frost-free hassle-free stress-free web design experience, where basically stuff just works. [00:07:30] All of the scary kind of hustle behind the scenes all the kind of configuration, all the. The, the stuff that people complain about WordPress, which is actually a strength at the same time, which is it's plugin plugin system, plugin architecture, but I'd got to the point where, for my own use of WordPress, but also just being sensitive to the needs of my students and the needs of the people who I work with day in, day out to help with this stuff. [00:08:01] I just saw massive frustration. Massive massive frustration with constant plugin updates, constant issues with plugins. It's not new in WordPress at all, obviously, but you know, updating plugins to find that something's broken, there's a conflict with something else, finding websites that now this is, I think, quite a bit of elemental issue cause they do, they have had a history of releasing some quite buggy releases in in more recently. [00:08:30] But you know, finding that a website that worked perfectly well, last time they logged in now, suddenly it doesn't work in, in some way there's some functionality broken or there's a, there's the layout that's suddenly off. Issues with hosting and all the RS, all manner of different things. It's kind of like that little drip, drip trip, the, the Chinese water torture, I think is called, the, the drip, drip, drip, drip of, of, of, of constant issues where I just thought there's, there's gotta be a better [00:09:00] way. [00:09:00] I know that, for instance, like I use Thinkific for my online course. And it's just all done for me. I can get on with actually creating courses, uploading the courses and teaching, there are, there are, I don't know, email marketing platforms where that the heavy lifting and the stuff that I don't need to know is done in the background so I can get on with my job. [00:09:22] And I started to think that there must be something better than this constant stress and worry and, and hustle. And maintenance and all of these other things, which is what led me to start looking at other possible or the solutions.  [00:09:39] Matt: I've seen the love, hate relationship with Gutenberg, how fast this piece of software has been iterated on. And just all the changes you couple that with ELA mentor, which is also on a rocket ship ride, they're growing, they're adding new features. They've hit a bout of turbulence, I guess is probably the nicest thing that I could say. [00:10:01] I know I've seen you and Paul on Twitter really hammering it home with element or for good reason. And they have to be conscious, I think, of element or they have the conscious of just not throwing the kitchen sink at everything for the sake of the kitchen sink.  [00:10:17] I feel like folks who are looking for a web flow solution understand that they should invest some money in a platform. That's just going to do it without the FOS updates, hosting issues. Incompatibilities with other plugins, like I will pay the, have that done on Webflow versus the WordPress side of it where it's like, man, there's so many variables that, that can be thrown at this. [00:10:46] Where are you getting that feedback from your audience?  [00:10:48] Dave: Yeah, it was it was, as I said, at the beginning, it was a very, very reluctant look looking for something else for very, very lots of, lots of reasons. I didn't want to be looking anywhere else. Yeah. Partly it was, it was my. And it was partly because of elements or boogie releases. So I got on with, for instance, I needed to build a new website for myself late last year, and they installed a new instance of WordPress and elements. [00:11:14] I was like, global colors just didn't work at all, just broken. And so, so w there were several issues like that just personally for myself, as it was like, oh, what, what is it now? There was not, and it's not just, it's not just elements or, I think. Lots and lots of other, other plugins as well, but let's, I'm probably focusing on elements are maybe a bit too much, but, but yeah, it certainly wasn't a good feeling from my audience and students by, by any means. [00:11:43] I mean, my, my group, I sort of private group was just every day there was just something of like, why isn't this working? Why is this thing broken now? Or it wasn't just necessarily as WordPress. It was like hosting as well, or. I think because. Because the, [00:12:00] because of the plugin architecture and there are plugins coming down the pipe every single day as you. [00:12:04] And I know constantly with, with new features and, potentially solving problems with SEO and page speed and everything else. So th th there were those issues with stuff just being broken and being hard. And, people struggling just to keep up with a frantic pace of change. I think that that was partly the thing, but I think also it was just, I think, yeah, just, just, I, I suppose people just I'm just trying to think of the best way to put it really. [00:12:33] Yeah, just, just gen general kind of anxiety about, about stuff being broken and stuff. Just not being easy, I think is the easiest way to put it. Yeah. [00:12:43] Matt: I want to ask you this question. This is going a little bit deeper in sort of like the creator in the, in the creator mindset, the, the business of being a creator and monetizing on, let's say YouTube and affiliate sales. It probably wasn't an easy decision to make either because one would imagine knowing what I did with affiliate sales, for elements. [00:13:06] Which was a flea on an elephant's ass, probably compared to what you and maybe others have done. It was probably a tough business decision to write, to be like, look, I'm making money. And I think you and Paul and, and, and the other folks that I communicate with on, on YouTube, you do affiliates. Right. I think of immediately when peoples think affiliates are like, oh, what are you trying to sell me? [00:13:29] What kind of cloaking device are you using on these, on these links? Like at one point in your, in your career, you're like, Elementor is a fantastic tool at this time. And they have an affiliate program. Why not recommend this and make money? It's a legit way when you're doing it a legit way. I don't have any other better way of saying that. [00:13:49] So I'd probably, at some point you were like, oh man, like I will be turning off this. Potentially of money. What was that like? And did you have, do you have any thoughts or feelings around affiliate sales and how this helps make the decision  [00:14:01] Dave: Yeah, well, I mean, affiliates, the affiliate business model was never ever my intention when I first started my thing was I'm going to sell courses and affiliate sales were have always just been a bit of a nice to have. When I first started my YouTube channel started making videos about this fairly brand new tool called elements or at the time I happened. [00:14:22] I mentioned my affiliate link. I think it just dropped it in the description. Sometimes I would, occasionally when elements I had an offer, I would let my email list know which was regrowing. My, my business model was growing my email list to sell courses in a nutshell. That's it. And it still is. Grow the email list to sell courses. [00:14:41] But thank goodness that I was an affiliate for elements or in those early days, because in the first kind of nine months of me getting to the point where I even had the confidence to make a course and to feel like I could sell it at all, we're going back to 2017 now, which seems so long [00:15:00] ago, it was only a few years, but yeah, the, the, the, the affiliate income from I was an affiliate for very, very few. [00:15:07] Elements or generate press. I don't know, maybe a hosting platform as well. Well, the income from that was better than I'd been making, working full-time as a web designer. And it absolutely saved my ass because if I hadn't have had that income I think the whole online course thing probably would have failed. [00:15:28] Now. I say that because I. Way too long to actually make a product and offer it to my, offer it to my audiences, to my MLS. So these days when I mentor and help people create products and make online courses, one of my first things is to say, is this a build. As a small and email list, as you can get away with find a hundred people and sell something, make something to sell. [00:15:55] It can be very low value, not low value, low, low price. It doesn't matter, but start making something and start selling something straight away, because it's only then that you can start getting true feedback about what people actually want, what they're prepared to pay for and where you? [00:16:11] should put your energies. [00:16:13] But yeah, the affiliate thing was, was massive, but. W my, the income of saying about, I'm not, I'm not saying it's a brag, but it's a multiple six figures a year. Business is mostly from courses. It's mostly from selling courses. I'd say 90% is from selling courses about WordPress and elemental, specifically about using those tools. [00:16:36] And yeah, to say that it's career suicide, there's the phrase, career suicide. [00:16:42] Matt: And you were, you were lucky enough to get to a point. Did you turn ads on, on your YouTube  [00:16:48] Dave: No, no, no, no. Never never had no, no, no,  [00:16:51] Matt: Just because you didn't want the experience or the user to have that experience of ads, or you were never looking at it  [00:16:59] Dave: I think, I think what I wanted to do was just to make sure. The foolishly probably, this is, this is not a savvy business head talking, but I think I just want to, just to make sure that when people watch my videos, that we're just not being interrupted by ads and, they could just actually enjoy the experience of, of watching the videos. [00:17:18] And I suspected that probably the income from that wasn't particularly going to be too great anyway. So I just always kept monitorization off for that reason. Really.  [00:17:27] Matt: My YouTube story is like, how do I get into this game? How do I create this content? And I quickly, but I don't say quickly, it took me six months to burn out, doing like three videos a week or maybe three or four videos a week. I had this ambitious goal of doing it like every day. And I just flatlined burned out. [00:17:46] I didn't literally didn't touch it for a year. And then all of a sudden. Ad sent, sent me the first check for a hundred bucks. Right. Then I logged in and it was, I had tripled my audience without uploading a video in a year, just because of SEO. [00:17:58] The light bulb went off. [00:18:00] Like you fool, you shouldn't have given up, you should have done it less. So you didn't burn yourself out, but you shouldn't have given up. And again, like life gets in the way YouTube stuff is so far away. My daily routine that I haven't uploaded episodes. And, but I still am making three or 400 bucks a month in ads. [00:18:19] And I have a lot of kids, so diapers are expensive. So I leave the ads on, but I, I, I can certainly, I can certainly see in your world where these bigger products, bigger prices, the brand, the value, there is a target for you to focus on. [00:18:34] Dave: Yeah. [00:18:35] definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I was the one that I think I wanted that sense of kind of trustworthiness. Yeah. just that experience. Really. I was not to say that people with ads, I watch, oh, I've got YouTube premium now, so I don't see any ads, but seeing ads on people's videos, I actually don't, I don't personally tie that into a decision that's made by the creator of the video at all. [00:18:55] It doesn't, I understand how it works as well, but I don't ever think, oh, they've, they've got ads turned on. They obviously don't care about my experiences as a viewer. It doesn't enter my head, so  [00:19:06] Matt: side note, I also signed up recently for premium, like late was finally one of those things where, you know, before you sign up for premium, every time you logged into YouTube, they'd be like, do premium, do premium, do premium. And I'm always like clothes, clothes, clothes. And I tell you, Dave, I am like, screw it. [00:19:23] I'm going to do it. Right. Like finally, you got me YouTube, literally a thousand pop-ups later is probably what my conversion metrics were. You finally got me and I signed up and I watched my first video with no ads. And I was like, wow,  [00:19:41] Dave: Yeah, well, consider the side.  [00:19:43] Matt: brain, because my brain was trained so much now with like their three pre-roll ads and then the, the pop-up in the middle of the banner and then like the mid roll. [00:19:53] And when I'm doing work for Casto, sometimes I'm in the Castle's account and I'm uploading my videos for Casos and I'll be watching something. And I'll be like, what is this ad? Like, my brain is like, what is this? Like, it was happening. And like, oh yeah, I'm not in my premium account. [00:20:08] Dave: It is awesome. I think it's. worth every single  [00:20:11] Matt: It is, it's. it is.  [00:20:13] Dave: Yeah, definitely.  [00:20:15] Matt: when I go on vacation with my children and recently w we're going to, we were in Florida and they're watching TV, cable, TV, and there's commercials. And my kids are literally asking me what dad, what is this? Why, why isn't the show playing? Because they're so used to Netflix and Disney plus. [00:20:33] Dave: Yeah.  [00:20:34] Matt: And they see a commercial and they are freaking out. They're like, what, what is a show? Where's the show? And I'm like, it's just a, it's a thing called commercial kids that you didn't grow up with. Welcome to my world.  [00:20:46] Dave: Oh, wow.  [00:20:46] Matt: All right. As we get into the back half of this conversation, web flow, did you, you said like, I want to find a platform that is easy, all encompassing. [00:20:59] Was Webflow [00:21:00] is in the back of your mind or did you start doing some homework and then you settled on Webflow? [00:21:04] Dave: Yeah, Well, I had, I'd actually been recommended Webflow several times over at least two years, probably more. And every time somebody said to me, you've got dude, you've got to check web flow out. And these were people that are trusted and respected friends of mine, colleagues, people all over the place. [00:21:19] And people who had never looked back, it would just adopted it for their agency as their go-to tool. And they moved from WordPress. And every single time somebody recommended it. I said, well, yeah, I've heard of that. I'll check it out. And then I would immediately toss the idea in the bin and think there is literally no way I am looking at any of the tools because I've got a lot of, as we've said, a lot invested in, in WordPress and everything. [00:21:44] So yeah. Yeah. So, so actually choosing Webflow. I, I had a little look around to see anything else. I obviously don't, didn't bother looking at the Squarespaces and the Wix and things like that. But yeah, the web flow was pretty much, pretty much the only one that I considered now, I actually tried it and gave up three times, like completely just thought, right, come on, come on. [00:22:07] You can do this. I mean, how hard can it be and gave up three times because it's not actually. It's not actually, it's not a beginner's platform. It's not designed for people who that, that Squarespace is designed for. You don't get a lot of pre pre-made designs and in fact, it's harder to use done. [00:22:26] I would say a WordPress page builder, probably not oxygen because oxygen is based very, very, very much on web flow as I understand. But yeah, it was, it was hard. And what I also found as well is. I well, partly so, so what would happen is I'd give it a try and think, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. I just, haven't got time. [00:22:46] I'll persevere with what I'm using. And it was the third time there was like the straw that broke the camel's back. I've got to figure this out. And in some ways it really appealed to me because when you start, well, we'll go into the details too much. But when you style anything in Webflow, you literally click on it. [00:23:04] A podcast doesn't make this a very good visual medium for me to explain this. But when you click on anything in web flow and you want to style it, it could be literally any element whatsoever. You give it a name, like a class, a, you give that class, whatever styles you like. You've got all the styles at your disposal, really easy, nice UI. [00:23:23] And then you just use that class on anything else that you want to give that, that that's those, those same styles. The sense of having literally on, con on limited global styling, not having to go to some separate styling panel somewhere to constantly kind of keep going back and sort of adjusting things. [00:23:46] And also not being out there, I suppose. Th the page, whatever the page builder developers decided the global styles are that you're going to have is what you're stuck with. You're limited by that. [00:24:00] Usually we web flow. You can just do what you like now as a, as an, actually like a dinosaur old school, HTML and CSS hand coder back in the day, this really appealed. [00:24:12] Because I used to write CSS and I'd have one single CSS file, which I could just create as many styles as I liked, and I could control them all from one place. So it was that particularly about web flow. That just super appealed to me, the lack of the lack of limits, really. I'm not being, I'm not being, I'm not being hampered by. [00:24:32] I mean, it's great. For instance, elements are just as an example, the whole load of widgets and know there are probably a million different third-party add-ons as well. It will all bring a load more widgets as well. And it is amazing. You can drag a widget on the screen, just onto the canvas. It just produces, your tabs or your, your posts Lao or whatever it is. [00:24:53] But you still fairly limited by the styling options that that developer has decided to give you where it was with Webflow is just completely open-ended. The problem, the problem it's like everything in life, concentrate offs. The problem with that beautiful open-endedness is that you can make a real mess. [00:25:14] If you're not careful, if you've not kind of got a system and a workflow and a, an a way that you decide that you're going to name classes and use them and reuse them, it can be a bit of a mess. And that's the issue that I hit immediately. The wet floor. The Webflow university, which is web flows own a free training is absolutely brilliant. [00:25:36] I mean, as, than, as an educator myself, as a teacher myself, I mean, I, I just think those videos are astounding. They're incredible. And I think it speaks volumes about a company like that who have invested so much time and energy into training their users. So that stuff was helpful. and it kinda got me got, definitely got me so far, but I was, I think because my teaching in WordPress and other mentor was all about, you've got all these tools, you've got all the colors in there, all the crayons in the box, but you need a system, you need a workflow, you need it. [00:26:16] You need, you need to set yourself limits. So. Yeah, you can produce sites really quickly, really productively, profitably and not have to think too much, you've got a system and you just do it and you just build them. So I, that was, that was the, that was the sticking point with Webflow. And it's what I ended up actually building a framework myself though. [00:26:36] There isn't anything really, there are web flow frameworks out there, but they all had issues for me. So I ended up building my own, [00:26:43] Matt: I've tried Webflow before. And me it's as much more of a like shiny object syndrome and a little bit of like this whole, like no code. Movement where it's like, I don't know. Sometimes I've thought of sat back and be like, man, if I could just have like a database that I use, like connected with Zapier [00:27:00] and I could like automate these things, I see all these other people do it, like in two seconds on the back of a napkin. [00:27:04] And I'm like, I want to do that too. And then like, I jumped into like web flow and I'm like, oh God, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just going to sound, I'm going away from this, this leads. And what I'm getting out of here is like, You tried it three times, whatever failed. And you're like, ah, somebody could just teach it my way you built it. [00:27:22] Right. You built the course to like, get people over that hump quite literally coming from WordPress to web flow. The name of your course is there a particular. Cut like a WordPress user or WordPress stack that somebody might be using. Who's like the perfect fit to, for your course number one, but for web flow, like certainly somebody who's us, I'm just a simple lowly WordPress blogger is probably not gonna need your course is probably not going to need web flow, but is there a certain, a certain avatar that is a perfect fit for your course, but for also to, to, to reap the benefits of web. [00:27:59] Dave: . I would say that people who I mean, if somebody is a WordPress developer, right? So we'll, we'll, we'll discount those people immediately, people are building their own themes and things like that then. Absolutely. Definitely not. I'm sure that WordPress gives you all of the, all of the control and the power and everything that you need. [00:28:14] So I would say more people who are trained to be. I'm trying to build full, fully functional websites using WordPress under page builder. I would say the people who definitely need a page builder of some kind. Now, when I'm in Gothenburg , is a page builder and it's developing fast as well. So I would say people who are using those tools particularly you, I, as I said, in a sense, web flow is a bit more complicated. [00:28:42] So it's, it's not just the. It is in some ways, but there isn't, the, the pre-built here is everything done for you. Aspect of quite a lot of the stuff that comes with a page builder. So there are certain things that you need to understand in the background. You need to understand what's going on. You need to understand a little bit about. [00:29:03] HTML and CSS as well. So just an, an understanding of just like how HTML interacts with CSS, just on a very basic level to understand things like inheritance, so when you set a style on the body, for instance, that is going to trickle down to everything underneath it, all the content and everything underneath it all, unless you override it. [00:29:26] So there are, there are concepts like that, that in a page builder, those people. I don't really even need to ever think about particularly, you can just eat just budge, something together quite, quite easily. I would say though that I, I do know of quite a lot of, of from end developers I suppose, backend developers as well, who really enjoy using web flow because it allows them to effectively write HTML and CSS without having to actually write HTML and CSS. [00:29:54] Cause like a graphical user interface for, for. Well, for me, [00:30:00] I am more than happy to recommend web flow to my audience, which are, as I said, non coders, they need a page builder and they're a little bit nervous about, all the multitude of different tools and, and, and things that they need to know. [00:30:15] Matt: I'm curious. I mean, I know the, as of, as of this time, which is September 17th at 11:30 AM Eastern standard time in new England, which is where we, we won't get into the  [00:30:28] Dave: I mean I'm in the old one.  [00:30:30] Matt: in the old one. You're in the original one. The, I know the course is not for sale yet. I'm curious. And I've seen it. [00:30:37] I think I've gone through the first two modules and, and, and, for the listener out there, like when Dave says he takes time, like it took me so long to do this. Yeah. But the quality is just mind blowing and I can't even imagine Dave, how much time you've spent on it. I don't, I don't know if you have a number of hours counted or if you even want to admit how long you've been into it. [00:30:57] I know it's not for sale yet. Do you, as of this recording, but maybe when we launch this recording do you anticipate. The some turbulence there. Right? So people in WordPress they're very much used to free or low cost web flows, paid the pain for your course. What are your thoughts? What's the gut tell you on promoting this as a business owner. [00:31:17] Dave: The first thing I would say is that when I started thinking about building a business, making online courses at all, my first thought was who on earth is going to pay any money for the learning, any of this stuff? And there's, there's this thing called YouTube. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's just full of all the free advice and tutorials and walkthroughs. [00:31:37] You could, you could ever hope for I purposefully, actually, I got over that mindset issue quite quickly, it's nonsense, but people are prepared to pay and they're prepared to pay good money as well for an investment in their career and their time and their stress levels and everything else. So, in terms of me worrying too much about people paying for a course or even paying for a platform, doesn't really worry me too much because the people who buy. [00:32:04] My course is our people. They are. I always think that out of my email list, probably, I don't know what the numbers are. 5% will buy something that I'm I make and those people are prepared to pay. I don't know how much my courses have been. I think, I think, I think the highest price, no stress WordPress was, which is discontinued now. [00:32:26] Not in know fairly indefinitely. I think there was about 800. For that. So, between sort of 4, 5, 6, 7, 800 bucks for a course, those people are absolutely. I mean, the web flow, cause it isn't that at all. I think it starting at two nines. So that's, that's, that's a bit lower just to, just to get started with at the moment. [00:32:48] But I'm, I'm, I'm fairly convinced and I am delighted to appeal to people who are willing to invest in their education and their professional development and the tools [00:33:00] that they use as well for an easier life. And so actually ultimately get a return on that investment, in terms of faster builds and not having to worry. [00:33:10] About updating plugins and maintenance and stuff, breaking and having to fix things and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't really worry me. It's all. [00:33:19] Matt: Yeah. I mean, when you have somebody who's already, I did an article. I, again, if I was a professional podcaster, I would have this up, I think element or web flow. Let's just see if my site ranks first. It  [00:33:31] Dave: Oh, oh, harsh,  [00:33:33] Matt: Element or web. Oh yeah, it does. I'm on the first page. Okay. A little, a little bit down on the first page, if you Google element or web flow, but I say in defense of element or versus web flow, and this site publish this February of this year, God man, you just, I didn't even understand time anymore. [00:33:48] February 11th, 2021. When folks were talking about the price hike of element, or now I'm not here to argue whether or not the. The approach of what Elementor was doing with bugs and features and whatnot is fair or not. I didn't have anything against the price hike, if you will, for ELA mentor, because man, I feel like so many people are making money with elementary or. [00:34:12] That even if you bought their $1,000 a year for a thousand websites, I mean, if you're somebody who's producing a thousand websites, you're at least charging $2 for one of those websites, right. You're selling these websites for at least $2, you've doubled your money. Right? So I was never against the raising of the price because hopefully that raises value of all things WordPress. [00:34:34] But my point here is people are already spending money in the web flow world. Whereas. Hats off and kudos to you. You're selling courses in the WordPress world where a majority of people are used to free. So you already were fighting a battle that I've not been able to solve  [00:34:51] Dave: Yeah, there is. I mean, there is a sense isn't there because WordPress is open source. Everything should be. And you, you hear that all the time. And I think that's just going to be a constant issue. Really. One thing that when I actually looked at certainly for, certainly for the people that I'm M in my course out, and the people that I kind of want to help when you actually look at the price of Webflow, cause people say, God, man Webflow is so expensive. [00:35:13] I think, well, if you look at it, you pay an account. I won't go into all the massive details, but you pay an account plan fee, which is basically a single monthly families, about 24 books. Which allows you to build, buy all, to build onstage on a, on a web flow.io domain all your web flow sites you've got in development, and you can share those with clients and you could even just make those live on the S on the staging sub domain, if you didn't want to point a live domain of them. [00:35:41] So that's 24 bucks a month. It's basically similar to, if you've got like an Adobe creative cloud subscription or you've got an elemental license on it and a theme license, and it just allows you to use the platform. So that to me is like, well, that seems perfectly fair. And then you [00:36:00] pay a per site site plan fee as well, which I think is about 20 bucks a month. [00:36:05] Now people who are hosting. Crumbing websites onto, I could attend books a month hosting plan, and they're quite happy with all the configuration and the setup and everything that, that entails and possible performance issues and whatever, then absolutely. I mean, knock yourself out. [00:36:23] Brilliant. But if you compare to, I mean, let's just take a WordPress managed host, like Insta, for instance, I think Ken stir last time I looked, it was 20 bucks a month. Now w so, so for each live site, you've got a domain pointed to, to web flow. You're paying 20 bucks a month for that. I mean again, if you're not making at least $20 a month back from the website, then there's something wrong. [00:36:48] You, you, you really should be a book. Also with that. You also get like the CDN, you get all of the page speed stuff set up for you, and it's all done for the, the sites are blazing fast, absolutely brilliant. All green, like top of the range, kind of page speed scores, the host inside and out for you. [00:37:07] Security. So sorted out for you. All of the functionality seems to me in many ways, if you were a person who would appreciate managed hosting, and it seems to me that that is actually a pretty good deal overall,  [00:37:21] Matt: I tend to agree things get a little crazy when you start getting into the e-commerce world with web flow the way that they do pricing, I broke it all down in this, in this post. Although this post is now a few months old and I'll link that up. I'll try to link that up in the, in the show notes. [00:37:34] But  [00:37:34] Dave: was a simplified.  [00:37:36] Matt: Yeah. At the end of the day, like the trade-off again is support all in one platform. If you really wrestled with, I want to own everything for the sake of owning it, and it's a whole mind, it's hard to make that mental leap and appreciation leap. I don't have a better word right now, but like, it's hard to make that leap from WordPress if you're really stuck in that, in that  [00:38:01] Dave: Yeah, absolutely. And I would, I would say to anybody that it's not like, I certainly don't set say to everybody, you must use Webflow is far better than WordPress. That's actually not what I'm saying. He probably comes across that way. There are trade offs with everything, and if ownership. Or certainly a feeling of ownership anyway and having control over every single aspect of that, of your website and website workflow and everything else, if that is important to you, for whatever reason, that's great, but there's a trade off in the maintenance and the plugin updates and stuff, breaking and everything else. [00:38:37] That's the that's that's, that's the deal, you w you can't have your cake and eat it kind of thing. I think he's just true of everything in life. Same with Webflow, yep. You don't have all of those hustles, but Yeah. [00:38:48] you've got a platform where you are in a way renting the site from, from Webflow. [00:38:53] What if Webflow disappears overnight? There were all these concerns. I mean, I've got, I've got kind of, answers for all these [00:39:00] objections, but There are also just very, very quickly. One of the biggest objections is she's quite funny to me is about recurring income from care plans. [00:39:10] So people will say I've got a pretty good business making recurring easy money every month by charging clients to keep the website updated the WordPress website update. And make sure it doesn't, it doesn't break for them. What am I going to do about that with Webflow? Because he just works, what's the, what, what, what, where am I going to make this money? [00:39:29] My short answer is always, well, first, if all things were equal and you could build a website in WordPress or web flow, and let's also say that either of them would be appropriate for the project, Really recommend WordPress because it's prone to problems, it's prone to problems and it, and it breaks. [00:39:51] And you can charge the client forever in order to, just to be basically lightly. No, let them have a working website. It sounds a bit harshly. It sounds like I'm kind of over again things, but that's kind of how it is really. Now my view is the client, your clients don't care. About how you did something, all that, how long it took you, all the steps you took, they are, they only care about the result on all the clients are paying you for, for, for a care plan, just in terms of the maintenance side of it, not talking about anything else. [00:40:24] Well, the maintenance side of it, they are paying you so that their website is rock solid. Isn't down works perfectly, and it just doesn't have any issues. Well, why can't you charge the client for the. You've found a better or the best platform that you think for their particular needs for their project that has all that in place. [00:40:46] You've spent all this time and money learning the platform. Why not charge clients for that? I, I don't think clients particularly cared that you've got to update plugins. You've got to spend X amount of time doing that. I think it's a bit of a non argument, rarely.  [00:40:59] Matt: I think at some of the tiers on web load, there's a little phone number you can call, right. So good luck. Yeah. Calling yeah. Calling you got a dozen plugins doing. Things, you're not going to call PIP in and, and, WooCommerce, you're not going to call these people and get them on a conference call to figure out what your site is at the end of the day. [00:41:18] You look, you're paying for that support. And web flows. As far as I know, in the news web flows slated to be a IPO and, and be a publicly traded company here in the states. And they're a private company now, but they've raised over 140 million. So they're probably valued at billions. I don't even know what money is these  [00:41:33] Dave: Probably, yeah, exactly. yeah, MailChimp is worth what was it? 12 billion, or something like  [00:41:37] Matt: half the half the banana industry or the entire globe?  [00:41:41] Dave: So, so w what is money.  [00:41:43] Matt: yeah. What is money via Canva? Just raised Canva just got another 400 million valued@fortybillioncanva.com. It's just, I don't know, Dave, what are we doing wrong here? [00:41:57] Dave: Well, I'm I think I'm going to hang these [00:42:00] headphones up.  [00:42:01] Matt: I'm going to make a canvas course. What am I doing with Webflow? Here's how to make a template in Canva. Oh man. It's called WordPress to web flow. His name is Dave Dave for you can search for Dave for you can go to date for.com. You can search him on YouTube. You can go to WP two w f.com or pressed a web flow. [00:42:21] Dave, anything else that any other place that people should find you? Yeah. [00:42:24] Dave: The other thoughts that you've covered up. So everything there, my friend. Yeah. [00:42:27] Brilliant. Thank you very much.  [00:42:29] Matt: Fantastic stuff. It's my report. My report.com my report.com/subscribe. Hey, if you want to support the content happening here at the Matt report, go to buy me a coffee.com/matt report. You can join the membership there and be part of the, the news right now. It's about the, the WP minute. If you want to be involved in the news, you wanna have your hand in shape. [00:42:49] Our weekly WordPress news, the five minute dose of WordPress news every week@wpminute.com. Go to buy me a coffee.com/matt report. Buy me a coffee.com/matt report. Support the show. Thanks for listening. 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Dave Pell has been writing online for almost as long as the internet has existed. His popular newsletter, NextDraft, has over 140,000 subscribers. NextDraft covers the day's ten most fascinating news stories, delivered with a fast and pithy wit.Dave has been a syndicated writer on NPR, Gizmodo, Forbes, and Huffington Post. He earned his bachelor's degree in English from U.C. Berkeley, and his master's in education from Harvard.Besides being a prolific writer, Dave is also the Managing Partner at Arba, LLC. For more than a decade, Arba has been angel investing in companies like Open Table, GrubHub, Marin Software, Hotel Tonight, Joyus, and Liftopia.In this episode, you'll learn: How Dave merged his two writing passions into a successful product The key to building a strong relationship with your audience How Dave dramatically increased signups to NextDraft Links & Resources Flicker Unsplash Fareed Zakaria Jim Rome The Skimm Morning Brew The Hustle Spark Loop Sam Spratt Dave Pell's Links Dave Pell on Twitter NextDraft newsletter Dave's new book: Please Scream Inside Your Heart NextDraft app PleaseScream.com Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Dave:If you have something to say in one way or another, the internet is a great place for people to figure out a way to receive it. So, that's pretty powerful and still excites me. I still press publish with the same enthusiasm now than I did when the internet first launched.[00:00:23] Nathan:In this episode I talk to Dave Pell, who has been writing for basically as long as the internet has been around. He's been an investor since the early days. He's been writing since the.com bust, and even before then. He writes his popular newsletter with 140,000 subscribers called Next Draft.We have this really fun conversation about writing. His writing process. How he grew the newsletter. Bunch of other things that he cares about. Even a few things that I was interested in, like he doesn't have his face in photos on the internet very much. He has his avatar instead. So, just getting into why that is.He also has a book coming out soon. It's called Scream Inside Your Heart, which is a fun reference to some memes from 2020. So, enjoy the episode. There's a lot in there.Dave. Welcome to the show.[00:01:12] Dave:Thanks a lot for having me on.[00:01:14] Nathan:Okay. So you've been doing this for a long time. You've been writing on the internet since the .com era. So, I'm curious maybe just to kick things off, what have you seen—I realize this is a giant question.What have you seen change? What are some of those trends that you've seen, that you either really miss from the early days, or some of those things that you've held onto from the early days of the internet, that you're really still enjoying?[00:01:46] Dave:Yeah, that is a pretty huge question, but I'll give it a shot. The thing I miss from the early days of the internet is that our democracy was not being destroyed by the internet in the early days of the internet. So, everything we thought we were building, basically it turned out to be the opposite of what actually happened.The part about the internet that I still feel is there, although a little bit less so because of the big companies have sort of taken over all the platforms and stuff, is just the idea that someone can have a passion or a creative output that they want to share with the world, and they can mold internet tools to fit their skills, and then use the internet to broadcast that out, and still become sort of pretty popular withour the “OK” of some gatekeeper at a publication, or at a television studio, or whatever.The indie spirit of the internet still lives on. It ebbs and flows, and has a lot of different iterations. But that was the thing that excited me the most when I first played with the internet. And that's the thing that continues to excite me the most now.[00:02:57] Nathan:I always think of the newsletter, and your newsletter in particular, is that indie spirit. Is that what you see most commonly in newsletters? Or are you seeing it in other places as well?[00:03:10] Dave:I see it in podcasts. I see it in newsletters. I see it in people sharing their art, sharing their photography on Flicker, and up through the more modern tools. I go to a site called Unsplash all the time to look at images, and it's just basically regular people sharing their images.Some of them are professional photographers, some aren't, and they're getting their work out there, and then some of them probably get jobs out of it and stuff like that. So, just the idea that you can have some kind of creative output and have a place to share it. And try to get an audience for that is really inspiring.It's a lot harder than it used to be because there's a few billion more people trying to get attention also, and because there are more gatekeepers now. So, you have to, hope that your app meets Apple's guidelines, or that different products you might want to share on the internet have to meet certain classifications now, whereas they might not have in the very early days of the internet. But in general, if you have something to say in one way or another, the internet is a great place for people to figure out a way to receive it.So, that's pretty powerful, and, still excites me. I still press published with the same enthusiasm now that I did when the internet first launched.[00:04:32] Nathan:Yeah. So let's talk about the main project that you have right now, which is Next Draft. Give listeners the 30-second pitch on Next Draft, of what it is.[00:04:46] Dave:Sure. Basically I call myself the managing editor of the internet. What I basically do is a personality-driven news newsletter where I cover the day's most fascinating news. I cover 10 stories. A lot of times in each section there's more than one link. I give my take on the day's news, each individual story, and then I link off to the source for the full story.When I first launched it, I called it Dinner Party Prep. I provided enough information for you to sort of get the gist of the story. And if there's topics you want to dig deeper, you just click and, you know, go get the story yourself. So that's sort of the overview of it.[00:05:27] Nathan:Nice. And you said that you're obsessed with the news maybe in a somewhat, even unhealthy way. why, where did that come from?[00:05:36] Dave:Yeah. Well, nothing, nothing about my relationship with the internet is only somewhat unhealthy. it's all extremely unhealthy, but, both my parents are Holocaust survivors and, when I was growing up, news was just a very big part of our daily lives, especially when my three older sisters moved out and it was just the three of us, that was sort of our mode of communication.We talked about the news. We watched the news together. Fareed Zakaria is basically the sun my parents always wanted. but so I got really into the news and being able to connect the news to, our everyday lives, which of course my parents had experienced as children and teens and Europe during world war II.And also reading between the lines about why certain politicians might be saying something, why stories are getting published a certain way. So I just got really into that and I've always been into a and college, you know, I, I majored in English, but if we had minors at Berkeley, I would have minored in journalism.I took a bunch of journalism courses. I've always been really into the media, but not so much as quite an insider where I go to work for a newspaper, but more observing, the news and providing sort of a lit review of what's happening and what has momentum in the news. So I sorta got addicted to it and, Also as a writer.My favorite thing to do is counter punch. I like to have somebody give me a topic and then I like to be able to quickly share my take, or make a joke or create a funny headline about that content. So I sorta took those two passions of the way I like to write. I like to write on deadline. I like to write fast and I like to counter punch and the content that I like, which is news, and I sort of merged those two things and created a product, and a pretty cool suite of internet tools to support that.[00:07:35] Nathan:Yeah. So that makes sense that you've identified the constraints that match your style and made something exactly that fits it. the deadline, like having, he, you know, coming out with something on a daily basis, is more than a lot of creators want to do. so what's your process there?[00:07:55] Dave:Yeah. I mean, I should emphasize that I do it every day. Not because I think it's some incredible draw for readers to get Daily Content. I do it every day because I'm addicted to it. If my newsletter had five stories in it, instead of 10, it would do better. If my newsletter came out three days a week instead of five days a week, I'm sure it would do better.If it came out once a week, it would do even better then you know, also if I had a more marketable or not marketable, but a more, business-oriented topic that was more narrow, it would do better. I used to write a newsletter that was just on tech and it was. Really popular in the internet professional community back in the first boom, I had about 50,000 subscribers and there were probably about 52,000 internet professionals.So I just like writing about what I want to write about and I'm addicted to pressing the publish button and I'm just addicted to the process. So I do it because of that. I'm not sure that would be my general advice to somebody trying to market or promote a newsletter.[00:09:01] Nathan:Yep. Are there other iterations, either ever before or things that you tried that you realized like, oh, that's not a fit for your personality, your writing style?[00:09:09] Dave:Yeah. When I first started it, I actually, I'm an angel investor also and have been since, probably right after Google and Yahoo launched. so a while, and I used to, my passion has always been writing, so I wanted to mix writing into that, process. So I would send out 10. Daily stories, but they were all tech news related to the CEOs of the companies I worked with and a few of their employees, so that they wouldn't have to spend their time reading the news or worrying about competitors or worry about what the latest trends in tech, where I would give it to them.And they could focus on doing their jobs and that sorta got shared and got out. so I did that for a few years. really, that was my iteration. I should've kept the brand. It was called David Netflix. not that it was a great name, but I've shifted brands about 40 times in my life. Cause I love branding and naming.I that's another, maybe this is more of a cautionary tale than a lesson and newsletter marketing. I would stick with a brand if anybody has the possibility of doing that, that was a big mistake I've made over the years is having multiple brands. But when the bus came, the first internet bust, I basically was writing an obituary column every day and about companies that had failed.So I just decided, I wanted to expand it and I knew I was interested in much broader topics than just tech news. So I expanded it to all news, a critical point that, really changed Next Draft and got it to catch on and become more popular was when I decided to focus on making it more personality driven and less, less overwhelmingly, providing an overwhelming level of coverage.I used to think that I had to provide all the news in the day because people would sort of, depend on me to provide their news. I was sort of selling myself as your trusted news source. So I would include a lot of stories that I didn't have anything to say about because they were huge news, you know, an embassy closed in Iran or whatever.That was huge international news, but I didn't necessarily have anything to say about that that day. So after a while I decided, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to limit it to 10 items. And I'm going to focus that on what I think is the most fascinating and think of it less like a curation tool and more like, a, modern day column.I think if the column newspaper column were invented today, it would look a lot like Next Draft people would sort of share their takes and then provide links off for more information. once I did that, it was a big change. People started signing up much more readily and, once I stopped trying to be exhaustive.[00:11:56] Nathan:That makes a lot of sense to me. I think that that's something you see from a lot of creators is that they're, they're trying to find some model. That's like, this is my idea of what people should want, you know, rather than what they end up doing, eventually it's coming to, it's like, okay, forget all of that.This is what I want. And I'm going to make that. And then people like me can find and follow it. And people who don't can, you know, do their thing. Can you go find one of the other million sources on the internet?[00:12:21] Dave:Yeah. When I think of the people that I like to follow or have followed forever on the internet, all of them are that ladder. They just do it their way. They have a design, they want, they stick to their guns. They say what they feel like saying. they decide. what the personality of the product is.And, they move within that. I always find that to be the most interesting thing, especially when it comes to something like newsletters. I really think newsletters are more like a radio talk shows than they are like other internet content, podcasts to a certain degree as well. But I always feel like I listened to are used to listen a lot to this radio, sports caster named Jim Rome.And whenever he would have a new city that he was launching and he would always give the same speech on the Monday that they launched saying, just give me a week. You might not.Get the vibe of what we're doing today. You might think it's okay, but not great, but just give it a week and listen, and then decide if you like it or not.And I sort of feel like that's how newsletters are your relationship with your readers sort of creates this, sort of insider-y voice and communication that, you, it takes a little while to get into the rhythm of getting it. But once you do, then it's like this familiar voice or this familiar friend that you feel like, even if you didn't read it for a few weeks, you can start a conversation with that person right away easily.That's how I think the voice of a newsletter is most effective. So that's why I've always thought of it. More of what I do is sort of a textual talk radio, more so than a blog or some other format[00:14:01] Nathan:What do you think, or what would you say to someone who maybe had 10 or 20,000 subscribers and felt like their newsletter had gone a bit stale and maybe their relationship to it had gotten a bit stale or they're in this, this position of writing things that no longer have their voice, how would you coach them through like bringing their voice and personality back into it?[00:14:22] Dave:I mean, it's definitely hard. it's hard doing something that you do alone and, something that is often hard to really get off the ground or get to grow, especially when you're on a platform like the internet, where every day, somebody does something and 10 seconds later, they're like internet famous and you're trying day after day.So, I mean, the first thing. Is that you really have to be interested in what you you're passionate about. and focus in on that, because that will alleviate a lot of that stress. Like, do I feel like sending it today? I'm a too burnt out. What's the point? I mean, not that those feelings don't happen. I had those feelings as recently as an hour ago, when I press publish, I have those feelings and disappointments constantly, you know, that's part of being a creator of any kind.Maybe that word is sort of, sort of goofy, but anybody who's putting themselves out there and putting content out, you know, you have that feeling all the time. If you're an indie, and you're doing it all day in front of the computer by yourself, then that's even more powerful because, you know, if you work at a big company or everybody's working on the same goal, or even in a small group, you can sort of support each other and, maybe even bullshit each other at some cases where, oh, no, this really matters.You know, where, if you're by yourself, that has to be pretty self-sustaining or self-sustaining. I do have a friend or two that I always share blurbs with who, one of my friends Rob's, he proves almost all of my blurbs, so it's nice to have that virtual office mate. He's not really officially part of Next Draft, but you know, I don't think I would do it as easily or as, for as long if it weren't for him because he's like my virtual friend on the internet that says, oh, come on, let's get it out today or whatever.So I think that's helpful to have a support team or a couple people you can count on to sort of give you a boost when you need it. But the key really is, is that it's gotta be something that you are passionate about, both in terms of the product and in terms of what you're focusing on, because if you feel strongly about it, then it really.I don't want to say it doesn't matter if people enjoy it, you should take cues from your readers. What are they clicking on? What are they reading? What are they responding to? But at the core, it's gotta be you because that's what gets you through those down points? you know, I had a weird thing because I write about news.The general news, world basically benefited dramatically from the Trump era because everybody was habitually turning on their news, 24, 7, and refreshing and Whitey and Washington post and checking Twitter every two seconds to see what crazy thing happened next. And we're all poor sorta,[00:17:01] Nathan:Wreck to watch.[00:17:02] Dave:So everybody was really into it and it created.Unbelievable platform for people to become media stars. You know, Trump was bad for democracy, but he was great for media. Great for creating new voices out there. whether we like it or not. for me, it was different because I wrote about all news. I wouldn't say I was apolitical, but I wasn't heavily political.The Next Draft had plenty of readers from both sides of the aisle. when Trump came around, it was like one story every day, basically. So it really limited. I would get emails from longtime readers all the time that said, Hey, can't you cover something other than Trump every day?And I say, Hey, if you can find the story for me, I'll cover it. This is what every journalist is on. Now, the people who used to cover the secret service around Trump, the people who used to cover sports are not talking about Trump because of a pandemic relation ship to it. The people who aren't entertainment are talking about Trump because they can't believe that anybody voted for him, whatever the issue was, every dinner party was about Trump.So it was really a bummer for my brand and my product. Actually, it became boring in some ways to me to have the same story every day. And it became, I think frustrating to my readers.But during that era, when it was happening, I had to make a decision. Do I become more political and go full on with this?Or do I sort of try to. Do what I would call a falsely unbiased view or a, you know, false equivalence view that we saw in the media where there's both sides to every story. And you have to pretend they're both accurate, including one guy saying to put disinfectant into your veins. And the other person's saying to wear a mask and take a vaccine, but those things get treated as equal somehow because the president said it.And I really decided, you know, more important than keeping readers is that I'm true to my own sort of ethical standards. In a moment that called for it, at least for me. So I became more political. went into it and I said, what I believe and still believe is the truth, you know, about what was happening with Trump and Trumpism and our slide towards authoritarianism.And I know that this is a podcast more about newsletterish than it is about politics or news, but I'm just sharing that because that's the kind of thing that kept me going. and the people who really cared about what I was writing, appreciated it and would email me and say they got something out of that.And most importantly, my mom would say, yeah, you made the right call. Or my dad would say, yeah, you got that. Right. And ultimately, When it became a sort of a bummer period for me, which I would say 2020 was because of all the horrible news. And, I was writing a book about the year. So I was like living, July of 20, 20, well writing about March of 2020, which I don't recommend for anybody's emotional health.And I just had to think like, what's really important to me. Yes. I want to be funny, which I try to be in my newsletter every day. I want to be read my narcissism is as strong as ever, but ultimately I want to be able to look myself in the reflection of the, darken screen on the rare times that it is dark and say like, yeah, you told the truth and that kept me going there.So I think whatever your brand is, you know, it can be a newsletter about guitars, but if you have that sort of passion, And you have something you want to say, and you think is important to say it sort of gets you through those levels and your motivation. And if it's not getting you through the lows and the motivation, there's nothing wrong with saying, Hey man, this is not worth it.I'm going to go try to make something else. You know, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to beat a dead horse.[00:20:51] Nathan:On the political side. Are there specific things that you felt like it costs you opportunities that it lost you? Because I think a lot of creators, whether they talk about, you know, finance or photography or whatever, I'll see these things. And they're like this either directly relates to me and my audience and I feel like I should take a stand on it.Or it's like a broader macro issue that I feel like we should talk about. And when you do, then there's immediately, you know, somewhere between three and 300 responses of like, we didn't follow you for the politics, you know, or like something like that. And your Instagram, DMS, or newsletter replies or whatever.[00:21:24] Dave:Yeah. it costs me a lot. Definitely it costs me readers or subscribers. It costs me, psychic pain because I was locked into a story that was just overwhelmingly, emotionally painful, really, and shocking and difficult to understand all the things that cause you sort of emotional exhaustion. We're in the Trump story, especially in 2020, when it became a story about our own health and our kids' health.And the frustration level just went through the roof. for me, professionalizing that content actually helps create a bit of a barrier to the feelings about it. Some of my good friends were probably more bummed during 2020 than I was because when the latest crazy story or depressing story would happen, I felt I had to. Ingest that content and then come up with, something cogent to say about it. And maybe hopefully funny to make it a little bit of sugar to take the medicine and then get it out to people. So I've always felt that being able to do that, sorta created a barrier between myself and actually feeling something.So that's another thing I like about the newsletter probably at least unconsciously. but yeah, there was a lot of costs in terms of readers, for sure. Hate mail. but there always is, you know, Today. I would say I get much more hate mail from the far left. If that's what you want to call them. People who feel like every joke is like an incredible triggering a front to their existence or any hint that you mentioned somebody as attractive.I've gotten hate mail because I implied that Beyonce is appearance was part of her brand. I mean, it's totally crazy, but, It's those extremes. You have to be able to turn off. You know, a friend of mine used to work at a major, be the editor of a major American newspaper. And he said every Friday they would get together and they would play the craziest, calls to the editor.They had a call line. In addition to, you could send a letter or you could call, leave a voicemail about something you were upset about in the coverage. And they would just gather around and have drinks on Friday. Listen to this because of course the people who are calling this line are almost self-selecting themselves as a little bit wacko and their takes were usually pretty extreme.The internet, Twitter, social media, Provides, greases the wheels for those people to be more prevalent in our lives. But I think it's really important to know that that's a real minority of people, somebody who sent you a hate mail, that your joke was so offensive, or they can't believe you mentioned that people ever watch pornography on the internet or any of these other things, it's this tiny minority of people.And then it's one step crazier that they felt like they had to contact you. So that's a really hard thing. I think about being split, particularly the newsletter game, because anybody can hit reply and you're going to get many more replies from people with crazy complaints, than you are from people with really thoughtful responses.Not that those don't come and those are valuable and I love getting those, but you get many more from people that just have really bizarre. I mean I could list probably for hours to crazy things that people send me that they're mad about, you know,[00:24:50] Nathan:Is there something specific that you do? Like one thing when I get those replies, if they're just like completely off the wall or abusive or something like that, I just scroll down and then click their unsubscribe link because, you know, they're never going to know, and then I just have to show up in their inbox[00:25:07] Dave:Right.[00:25:08] Nathan:There's something that you do.[00:25:09] Dave:That's not a bad strategy. I like that. I do do that occasionally for sure. occasionally I'll just go to Gmail and just, create a filter for that email to automatically go to my trash. if it's like a hardcore right-winger, that's telling me how stupid I am about ivermectin and that, you know, people should be taking horse dewormer and I'm just not getting the truth.And that Trump is awesome and that, Whatever. I usually just delete, honestly, because I don't see a big benefit to replying to somebody, especially if it's like a rabbit email, you know, they're looking for a reply, they want the conflict. A lot of people sleep easy with conflict. That's one of the lessons of the internet that I learned when I was first starting on the internet, you know, David edix sort sorta became popular because somebody that had a blog with a similar name, that I hadn't heard of, complained that I sort of stole his name because his name was also Dave.And I had got like, probably about three or 400 emails saying, you know, with expletive saying what a horrible person I was. And I also got about 3000 subscribers and at the time I had about 30, so. I didn't know how to respond. I felt like, wow. Number one, I didn't know that guys had the product with the same name.Number two. My name was different enough. Number two or three were both named Dave. I mean, who cares? You know, and plus I don't want to be attacked by anybody. So your first reaction is to respond and a slightly older, although not noticeably these days with my gray beard, slightly older friend of mine who had been in tech a little longer, said, don't respond.This guy lives for conflict. You guys are going to fight. There's going to be this public thing. You're going to be up all night and he's going to never sleep so easy. So, I took that to heart and didn't respond. And I, I think about that a lot when I get rabid emails from people, Mike exception, actually probably my weak point really is from, more my side of the political spectrum, where people who are generally liberal, but are just so extreme for me.In terms of being triggered or having a joke, be every joke, be inappropriate. That those people, I actually do feel like I want to respond to because, I, I don't think I can really motivate or move, somebody who was on the opposite end of the spectrum and is sending me hate aggressive, hate mail, but maybe I can move somebody who's just a little bit different than me, or a little bit more extreme.I will respond to those, although I'm usually sorry. The one other thing I always respond to is if people have been reading, they say, oh, I've been reading you for years. And, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about this book that you wrote before ordering it. And I'm like, just order the damn book. that's probably my most common email to people these days. It's actually remarkable how many people says, wow, I I've been reading you for years. I share you with all my friends. something, when my sons come home from college where it's always talking about, Dave said this, Dave said that, before I buy your book, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions to make sure it's going to be for me.I'm like I worked on something for an hour and it's like, your family is talking about it. What, just by the thing I worked on for a year, you know? So those kind of things, personal frustration, I respond.[00:28:37] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. okay. I'd love to talk about the book some more, but before we get into that, there's two things I want to talk about. The first one is like, how do you measure success for the newsletter? What's the thing that you'd like to, cause I don't think it's, you're pursuing the monetary side for this.It sounds like the monetary side comes from investing and, and then what's success for the newsletter.[00:28:59] Dave:I mean, I have had right now, I I'm just marketing my, my own stuff. And during the pandemic I marketed non-profits, but, that had to do with either the pandemic or, the democracy issues that we were facing. but I have made decent money from selling straight sponsorships. Year-long sponsorships to people, which I highly recommend.I think some of the ads that people put into his letters that go by clicks or whatever, unless you have a massive audience, it's hard to make much money, but if you pitch to some company that is a like-minded brand, Hey, you're going to be my only brand for a year. And anytime you have special events, I'm going to mention it.Then you can say, okay, you have like, you know, 20,000 readers or a hundred thousand readers that can make a difference to a brand to say, yeah, it's like a rounding air show. We'll give you 20 grand or a hundred grand or wherever it comes in there that you can actually make a decent. Living in terms of writing.So that always worked better for me, but no, my, my internet life is really all about narcissism and, clicks, you know, the dopamine, I just want reads. I'd rather you subscribe to my newsletter than pitch me your startup company. I just, that's what I want the most. So more numbers, more opens, more reads, more subscribers.And unfortunately that's probably the hardest thing to get also, especially in a product that is sort of viral. I think newsletters are sort of viral, but it's better if you have a team and some tools to really get it going. That's, you know, sites like the Skimm morning brew and the hustle. They have teams that are really growth hacking and focusing on that and having rewards programs and ambassador programs.The reason you see that is because.Newsletters themselves are not really inherently that viral. Yes. Somebody can forward it to one person or whatever, but it's not as viral as a lot of other forms of content where you can click a button and share it with all of your followers, like a Facebook post or a tweet.So yeah, the thing that matters to me most is probably the hardest to get in the newsletter game, but that's the truth[00:31:10] Nathan:Yeah. Well, I think the, the point on like newsletters don't have a distribution engine. There's no Facebook newsfeed, YouTube algorithm equivalent for newsletters. And so it really relies on either you posting your content somewhere else, whether it's Twitter or YouTube or medium or something that has an algorithm or your readers saying like, oh, I read Next Draft.You should too. There's not really something else in there. Have you looked at, or I guess if you have thoughts on that, you comments on it, but then also have you looked at launching an ambassador program or, or an actual referral program?[00:31:44] Dave:Yeah, I've thought about him. And now over the last year, there's been a few tools that have come out a few. I think X people from sites like morning view Ru, and some other sites that have sort of perfected some of these marketing programs have, sort of come out with these tools. I've messed around with them a little bit.Some of them still require I find, some technical ones. so I, I have like an engineer who works with me on Next Draft, like as a freelance basis every now and then, but it's not always easy for me to launch stuff that requires a lot of a moment to moment technical support, and management, because it's just me using a lot of, they're customized, but they're over the counter tools.So I've thought about a lot of them, but I really haven't tried it that much.I want to though I do want to do that. I would like to do one of those programs, especially where you get credit for referrals. I think that's the best kind of model. So there's one called spark loop.[00:32:51] Nathan:Yeah, we actually, I invested in spark loops, so we[00:32:54] Dave:Okay.[00:32:55] Nathan:Decent portion of that business, so good.[00:32:58] Dave:Oh, nice. Yeah. That one, if it was just slightly easier, I know that it's probably difficult to make it easier because, there's so many pieces. They have to have your subscribers. I have to have my subscribers, but that is, does seem like a good product. And especially if they can, I think expand into like letting a person sell a product or whatever, get credited for sharing products that can be even bigger.But yeah, that kind of stuff is really powerful for sure. And I, I do want to get into that. it's more just inertia that I it's just a matter of sitting there for the, an amount of hours that it requires to get it going.But I do think that's a great thing for newsletter writers to do, and I'm pretty surprised that more newsletter platforms don't build it right in.I think that'll probably change over time too. Maybe you guys will get acquired by.[00:33:48] Nathan:Yep. No, that makes sense. I know for convert kit, we wanted to build it in, it looks at the amount of time that it would take and then said like let's invest in a , you know, and then roll it into our offering.[00:33:59] Dave:Yeah, it's hard. It's hard not to take that stuff personally, too, you know, for people that do newsletters, you think you're going to put a thing on there and say, Hey, you know, it's just me here and you always read my newsletter and click. I know you love me so much. Can you just do this to get a free whatever?And it's, you know, sometimes not that many people click, you know, or other times like they click just as long as there's the free item. So there's a lot of ways to get depressed. Like I had things where I say, Hey, the first a hundred people who do this, get a free t-shirt or whatever next strap t-shirt.And those hundred people will literally do what I asked them to do in like 34 seconds, you know? And then it like stops after that. The next time you ask them, if there's not a t-shirt. But it's not you, you know, if you go to a baseball game or a lawyer game or whatever, you know, people sit there, they don't even cheer as much for the team as they cheer when the guy comes out with the t-shirt gun.So it's like, people love t-shirts more than they're ever going to love you. And you have to go into these things with that in mind. there's no way, even if it's, even if you're XX large and the t-shirt is, you know, petite, it's still worth more than you are. And the average mind of the average person.So you have to go into all of these things thinking, I hope this works like crazy, but if it doesn't tomorrow, I open up the browser and start writing.[00:35:19] Nathan:Yeah. That's very true. I want to talk about the growth of the newsletter. I was reading something, which I realized later was back in 2014, that you were at around 160,000 subscribers. I imagine it's quite a bit larger than that now. And then I'd love to hear some of the inflection points of growth.[00:35:35] Dave:Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure. I might've, I don't know if I lied in 2014, but now I have about,[00:35:41] Nathan:Quoted it wrong.[00:35:42] Dave:No, you might've got it right. I might've exaggerated. Maybe that was a including app downloads and a few other things. Yeah. I have about 140,000 or so now, so that would be making that a pretty horrible seven years now.You're depressing me.Your listeners should just stop, stop writing newsletters. It's not worth the depression[00:36:02] Nathan:Just give up now[00:36:03] Dave:Yeah. And by all means if Nathan goals do not pick up. no, yeah, I probably have it 140,000 on newsletter. Made my newsletter. It's hard to believe in this era of newsletters actually, but when I first launched Next Draft, I noticed that even people who would send in testimonials or that I would ask for testimonials would say, basically something to the extent that even though email is horrible, this is the one newsletter I I'd sign up for whatever.And I kept thinking, man, that's a bummer that I'm starting out at this deficit, that people have a negative feeling about the medium. So I, since then I've always made it my goal to. Have the content available wherever people are. So the newsletter is certainly the main way that people get next job, but there's an app for the iPhone and the iPad there.That's the first thing I launched because I wanted to have an alternative for people who just hate email too much. So now you go to the landing page, it's like, Hey, if you don't like email, here's another version. I have a blog version. I have an apple news version. I have an RSS version. I'm lucky enough to have a really good, WordPress custom WordPress install that I just push one button and it pushes it out to all of those things.But I am, I'm a big proponent of just meeting people where they are. even, as an example, I recently launched a sort of a substance. Version of my newsletter under the radar. but when I redo my site, I'm going to make that more clear because if people already subscribed to like 10 sub stacks and they're using their aggregator and they already have their email saved and they can just click a button, it's like, I don't care.You know, it takes me five extra minutes to paste my content into sub stack. So I just want the reads. I don't really care about how they read it or whether they read it.[00:37:55] Nathan:Yeah. That's fascinating. So then let's shift gears a little bit. I want to hear about the book. first I wanna hear about the title. Would you have it on your shirt?[00:38:03] Dave:Yeah. That's pretty embarrassing. I swear. I didn't know it was video today, but I do have a shirt[00:38:06] Nathan:You're good.[00:38:07] Dave:Otherwise I wouldn't have worn. This would have worn my Nathan Barry's shirt.[00:38:12] Nathan:That's right. It's in the mail actually. It's[00:38:15] Dave:Oh, good, good.[00:38:16] Nathan:Big photo of my face.[00:38:17] Dave:Yeah. Convert kit. My wife converted to Judaism before we got married. So I have my own convert kit.[00:38:23] Nathan:There you go. Exactly. so I want to hear like what the book is about and then particularly where the title came from,[00:38:30] Dave:Sure.[00:38:31] Nathan:It made me laugh a lot when I heard it.[00:38:33] Dave:Oh, cool. That's good. That's a good start then. yeah, the title comes from, in July of the, of 2020 when the pandemic was really setting in and becoming a reality for everybody. this amusement park outside of Tokyo in the shadow of Mount Fuji called the Fuji queue. amusement park reopened.And they found that even though everybody w everybody was wearing masks, people were screaming so much on some of the rides, especially the Fujiyama roller coaster, which was their scariest ride, that they were worried about germs spread. So they sort of put signs around the amusement park saying, no screaming, you can come, you can ride and have fun, but keep your mask on adults scream.And it sort of became a little minor social media thing in Japan, where people were sort of making fun of them like, oh, they're telling us not to scream. How can anybody not scream on the Fujiyama roller coaster? So in response, the, park management had to have their executives with perfectly quaffed hair and tie and colored shirts and masks on ride the roller coaster with a webcam facing them the whole time without moving a muscle.Cracking a smile or grimacing or screaming. And then at the end of the ride, when the rollercoaster stops, it says, please Scream Inside Your Heart.And that was always my favorite meme of, 2020. It went really viral. There was like t-shirts. aside from mine, there were posters memes. It sort of went crazy for about a week or two, which by 2020 standards is a pretty long time for a meme to last.And I just thought that made sense as a title for the book, because that's sort of how we felt, all year that I dunno if we were screaming in our heart, but we were certainly screaming into a void. Like no matter what we sat or yelled on social media or complained to our family members or friends, it just kept getting worse.The year just kept getting worse. And, so the idea is that this book sort of, now you're free to sort of let out the scream. And the book is it's about 2020, certainly, but it's really about the issues that led us to 2020. There's a ton about our relationship to media and including my own relationship to media and how that got us into trouble.Some of the stuff we're talking about today, how, technology has impacted our lives stuff. I've been sort of thinking about it, writing about for the last few decades, and a lot of the political hate that emerged. and, but it's all within this time capsule of the craziest year.[00:41:12] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. And so that's coming out early in November, November 2nd. so you're, it looks like you're just starting the, you know, mentioning the promotion tour and all of that. is there a big, big push that comes with it or are you kind of, I, I'm always curious with people's book launches, what strategy they take.[00:41:30] Dave:Yeah. I mean, I'm a newbie, so it's, the whole process has been interesting to me working with a publisher, working with others, is not my forte. so I got used to that or I'm getting used to that and they're probably getting used to it also because working with grouchy 50 something in these is probably not ideal, but, yeah, I've just been promoting it so far in Next Draft, but I've been doing, I have a PR company that's helping me and I've been doing a ton of podcasts and I'm marketing it to my own readers.And then as it gets a little bit closer to the November 2nd date, I have a lot more stuff planned rut, a lot of influencers have early copies of the book, and hopefully they'll promote it. And, I'll call out a few favors from bloggers and hopefully newsletter writers. I feel like that should be my in theory.That should be my secret weapon because, in addition to being fun and creative, nothing moves traffic, except maybe Facebook, nothing moves traffic more than newsletters. I know a lot of people who run e-commerce companies and newsletters are always second, if not first, in terms of traffic drivers.So, I really think that, if some of my friends out there at morning brew in the hustle and the scam and all these other sites that sort of, have surpassed my size by quite a bit, put the word out that, one of their fellow warriors is, has a book out. That'll probably move the needle even more. The media, I'm hoping to get stuff like that, but I really don't know. I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much because, unlike a newsletter, it's not just one day's work, you know, you like worry about one word or one sentence in a book for like three weeks and then you put it out there and people are like, oh yeah, I'll check it out sometime.Thanks. So, you know, that's, you know, whatever that's life as a, you put yourself out there, that's how it goes. So I'm hoping it sells well. And, the more people that get it, I think some people, their first reaction is, oh my God, 2020. I don't want to relive that again. But, hopefully people who know my brand and those that they share it with, know that it's, you know, there's a lot of humor and there's, it's probably 30 pages before we even get into the first event of 2020.So it's, there's a lot more to it and it's sort of fun and crazy and tries to have the pace of a roller coaster. that was the other thing I took from the Fujiyama roller coaster.[00:43:59] Nathan:Yeah. So one thing that I'm always curious about with people who have like a prolific newsletter, you know, in your case of writing every day, and then like, for a lot of people, that would be a lot to handle of staying on top of a daily newsletter. And then you're writing a book on top of that. How did you schedule your time?Were you blocking off like, oh, these afternoons are specifically for book, book writing. Cause you turned it around relatively fast.[00:44:24] Dave:Yeah. the newsletter is sort of like a full-time job. People always ask me, you know, when do you work on, or how many hours do you spend on it? I mean, I'm, I'm always looking for news, whether it's on Twitter or friends, emailing me stuff or texting me stories, or just in conversations with people to see what they're into or what stories are interesting them or what I'm missing.In terms of actual time spent like where I'm dedicating time. I probably do like about an hour every night, because the story has changed so quick. So I'll do an hour of looking for stories every night. And then the next day I sort of lock in from about nine to one, usually, or nine to 12, where I'm finding stories, saving those stories, choosing what stories I want to go with and then actually writing the newsletter.All of that takes about anywhere from like two and a half to four hours, depending on the day I go pretty fast. When it came to the book, that was tricky. It was actually more emotionally tricky because like I said before, I was like, had to go back and write about, you know, Briana Taylor while I'm living another horrible act, you know, or even more so the Trump, you know, one crazy Trump thing and another crazy Trump thing and seeing the pandemic getting worse and worse.So that was stressful. But I found at the beginning I would try to write a lot at night and that was okay. But I found actually if I just kept going, in the day when I was already rolling and had written the newsletter and I was already in the group just to add on an hour or two to that was actually easier and more effective for me than trying to get going.But that's just me. I mean, I just go by my it's almost like my circadian rhythm or something like that, I almost never eat or consume anything before I'm done with next job except for coffee. I would keep that going, you know, once I would like, sort of have a sandwich or whatever, then it's like, oh, let me just take a quick nap and then whatever.So, yeah, I tried to just keep it going. I always find the more consistently busy I am, the less I procrastinate. And if I take a day off or I take a few hours off, even then, between writing, it just, it takes me longer to get going.[00:46:37] Nathan:Yep. That makes sense. The habit that I'm in right now is starting the day with 45 minutes to an hour of writing and that's working much better for me than like slotting it in somewhere else. So I think like w what I hear you saying is like, experiment and find the thing that works well for you.[00:46:54] Dave:Yeah. I mean, if you're going to start experimenting almost every writer, I know not like newsletter writers, but just general writers, all do what you just described. They sort of pick a time in the morning and they get their output done. then the rest of the day, if ideas come to them or whatever, they jot it down, but they're sort of powering in that morning hours.[00:47:13] Nathan:Yeah.[00:47:14] Dave:That's probably a good one to try. Although, you know, some people just do it better at different hours. I'm sure.[00:47:19] Nathan:Yeah. another thing I realized, I've always you for years, and until we got on this video call, I had no idea what you looked like. and which is kind of an interesting,[00:47:28] Dave:Well, I'm sorry.It's by design. I have a face for Panda.[00:47:32] Nathan:Tell me more about, well, I guess two sides, one, has there ever been an interesting interaction? You know, because you're like, Hey, I'm, I'm Dave and people are like, I wouldn't have ever recognized you. Or has there been any other benefits and thought behind, you know, why it have an avatar?[00:47:49] Dave:If by interesting you mean horrible? Yes. There's been many interesting interactions with people. I mean, before, before I had my current, avatar, which is, pretty awesome, actually, a guy named Brian Molko designed it. I had this incredible drawing of a character that looked like me that, had sort of ether net, Machinery and cord going into his head and it was like me, but my head was actually lifted.The top of my head was lifted off and you could see all this machinery and it was an incredible graphic, by this guy named Sam Spratt. Who's now done, album covers and book covers. He's like a super talent. If you want to follow somebody fun on Instagram, he's just incredible. And it was a drawing, even though it looked photo realistic.And I used that for a while and then I would go places and people would be like, you are so much fatter and grayer than I imagined. And so instead of having Sam sort of ruin his artwork, I went back with the more, cartoonish or animated, avatar. So since then I don't get too much of that, but, that was a good move.Although that's the best thing about avatars and the internet is that your avatar never ages. It always looks the same. It stays the same weight. My avatar never overeats he exercises right here. Angie really gets along well with others and doesn't have any kind of social anxiety either. So he's pretty cool.Yeah, it goes a little downhill with me in person. So[00:49:21] Nathan:Yeah. So is it, that's something that like, it gives you some distance between you and readers, or it gives you some anonymity that, you know, you don't want to be recognized in the streets?[00:49:32] Dave:No, no, it's, it's, basically just what I described. It's like, I literally prefer the, the attractiveness of my avatar versus me, but also actually my avatar is really awesome. my logo, so it's also iconic and scalable. so it looks awesome on t-shirts even people who don't know what Next Draft is when they see, by son wearing his t-shirt, whatever, it just looks awesome.So that that's that's as much of it as anything. I thought your response was going to be mad. You seem perfectly attractive to me. I don't know what the issue is, but no, you went with, am I doing that for some other reason? Yeah. So, I get this all the time.Cause my wife is a very attractive person also. So when people meet me, they're always like, whoa, we were once a very famous celebrity came up to me and I said, oh, I'm Gina's husband. And she was like, wow, you did well. Oh, you know? So I'm like, thanks a lot. That helps. So just gave her a picture of my, my icon and walked away.[00:50:31] Nathan:Then that worked. I'm sure that she has it framed in her office, from now on. it's just interesting to me. You're you're sort of at this intersection between personal brand and, like media brand. And I think the avatar helps push you over into the media brand side. and I don't have any real commentary on it other than I find it interesting.[00:50:53] Dave:Yeah, no, I think there probably is some of that. I I've never really been a fan of using my actual face, or my actual person as a logo. I love the process of designing or working with people to design logos and taglines and all that. But yeah, probably at some point there was a, a goal with Next Draft to make it seem bigger than it is.I know a lot of people that are solo operators. They regularly say we, when they're talking about their brand to make it seem bigger, I actually think that's sort of been flipped on its head though. in the last few years where so many people are coming into the space, it's very clear that what they're doing is leaving a big brand, leaving a we and going to an eye.And I think it's actually a selling point in a lot of ways. So, I mean, I, I still get a lot of emails that say, I don't know if anybody at Next Draft is going to read this email, you know, or if you do, can you get this message to Dave? He's an asshole or whatever. And it's like, I'm the only one here, you know, or the other one I always get is when I email back to people that go, oh, I can't believe you actually emailed back.I didn't think this would get to anybody. It's like, you hit reply. And it had my email, like where else would it go? Exactly. You know? But I think actually having people thinking of you as a person, instead of a brand, Is a benefit today. Whereas if you would ask me when I was younger, I probably would have said, make it seem like you have a big company behind you.[00:52:24] Nathan:Yeah. And I think that that indie shift overall, like people are looking for that.[00:52:29] Dave:Yeah,[00:52:29] Nathan:Want to ask about the intersection between your investing and the newsletter. like, are you still actively investing today and doing author.[00:52:38] Dave:Yeah, yeah, no, I, I still invest a ton. I usually follow along with people who are a little more in tune with today's companies than I am. I don't really go out there and brand myself as an investor much, but I've been really lucky. I have very little intersection actually, if any, with my newsletter and my investing and I definitely want people to. To think of me as a writer first, for sure. Not as an investor who has this hobby, because that's definitely not in terms of time or passion, the reality. but I've been really lucky over the years that, I've invested with people or co-invested with them that were cool with me. branding myself as a writer first, but still looking at deals that came through their brands because they were branded as BCS or investors or angels.That's probably a bigger deal now than when I first started. There were like five angel investors, basically. Nobody really did small, early stage seed deals. you know, I mean, we all knew each other that did it and now there's like thousands of them. So you really have to be either a really pretty well-known entrepreneur or you have to. Sort of attach yourself to our organization or two who are really branding themselves well, getting out there and building a stable of companies,[00:53:58] Nathan:Yeah.[00:53:59] Dave:It's pretty different, more, much more has changed about that than the newsletter game, actually, which is pretty much the same as it was the day I started actually.[00:54:07] Nathan:Are there a few of those I'm curious who are a few of those, people that you would tag along with, you know, when they're investing where like, oh, this person puts money into something I'd like to be right there with them.[00:54:19] Dave:I mean, I have some people that are like entrepreneurs and former entrepreneurs that do it, and if they like it I'll do it. but generally I co-invest with, at any given time, a different group of people, used to be a larger group. When I first started out, my whole investing career, I've co-invested with this guy named Bob zip who's much smarter and much wiser than I am about all things business and.Startup world. So that was really great. And he used to work at a company called venture law group in the first boom, and they represented Google, Hotmail. eGroups all the big, huge, early internet companies, and so he really knew the space well. And when he became, I used to get deals from him.That's how you used to get deals actually was by a couple of law firms that focused on startups. I've been co-investing with him all along and he's been generous enough to, he left the law firm a long, long time ago and became an investor primarily. And he had a fund and was well-known guy and well-respected guy.So I got to sit in when he would hear pitches. and we sort of, we weren't investing together out of the same fund, but we would sort of make our decisions together. And we still do that a lot. these days, I almost always follow along with a guy named run-on barn Cohen and a really good friend of mine.He was for many years at WordPress, basically, most of the things that make money at WordPress, he did. and now he's a investor at a VC called resolute. If anybody's looking for a good VC, he's like incredible, like Bob zip much, much smarter than I am about this stuff. Unbelievably ethical, great business sense.Great technical sense. so I mostly just follow him. So if he does something that's usually good enough for me. And if I see something that I think it's good, I'll pass it along to him, but it's mostly that, but I've been really fortunate. I can't express that enough, that I've been able to invest in companies without having to spend all of my time, branding myself as an investor.That's just been unbelievably lucky. So, I've been able to focus a ton of my energy on my six.[00:56:31] Nathan:That's right. I'm writing a newsletter about the news. I guess, as you're looking to grow and continue on, right? Like the next phase of readers and, and all of that, since we can just say directly that we're all narcissists and we do this for the attention. what's what's sort of that next thing that you're looking for, it's going from 140,000 subscribers to say 200,000 and beyond.[00:56:54] Dave:Yeah, well, I'm, I'm hoping that, I'm not just trying to sell my book here. I'm hoping that the book and the newsletter will sort of have, a coexistence with them because the new the book is really an extension of the brand and the brand is that icon to Next Draft. So I'm hoping that the tricky part about writing about marketing a newsletter, like we discussed earlier, there's not really a natural virality to them.So. You Have this piecemeal growth from people telling each other or their friends or forwarding it to somebody or maybe occasionally tweeting or sharing a Facebook link. Oh, you should check this out. But it's all sort of small little blips. If you get a news story or a big blog story about it, or another newsletter recommending you, that's probably the fastest way people grow these days is by, co-sponsoring each other's newsletters or co-promoting them.Those big hits are more rare and they usually require like, I've had a ton of stories written about Next Draft, but most of them a long time ago, because it's basically a similar product to what it was when they wrote about it the first time. So they're like, Hey, I'd love to write about it, but what's the hook.What's the new thing, you know? so I'm hoping that the book provides that emphasis. It's like, we're doing now a ton of people who may by either been on a podcast in the past, or they've wanted to do a podcast with me say, okay, now's a great time. I'd probably want to move your book and, we can set something up.So it's sort of as an impetus. So I'm hoping that that will be the next big newsletter thing that most, most people who write about the book will also write about the newsletter and the two things can sort of grow together.[00:58:35] Nathan:I think that's spot on.[00:58:36] Dave:That's in terms of, you know, marketing and promotion, otherwise, I do want to try, one of these referral programs because people definitely do like products.And, I am lucky that my icon looks really good on shirts so that people actually really want them. And I have a great designer named Brian Bell who makes all of my shirts.[00:58:58] Nathan:There's something like when creators thinking about products, often if you spread yourself too thin, you're like into the newsletter, the book, the podcast, and like the 14 other things that you could make all at once you sort of hinder the growth of each thing, but then if you really build one of them up to a significant level, then at that point it can start to stall out and by shifting to another medium or have it like launching another product in this case, the newsletter to a book, then that book can have a bunch more momentum that feeds back into it.And so there's just sort of this interesting balance of like, no, When to like, keep pushing on the thing that you have versus when to add the next thing that like, then they feed off of each other and go from there. So I think you're doing it with good timing.[00:59:45] Dave:Hopefully it'll work. All that kind of stuff is the tricky part of doing this stuff. Especially stuff like podcasts and newsletters that are—it's really a ton of word of mouth, unless you get lucky and get some press, and word of mouth is just slow.There's some point where you're going to hit a tipping point where you're going to go from five or 10,000 to like 50,000 much quicker, more quickly because instead of three people going home and saying, “Hey, did you ever hear of this newsletter?” there's like 30 people going home and saying that. But, even with that they hit a plateau, and then you figure out what's the next thing. That's why doing something you're into is so important.And I don't think it's bad to try those other mediums or stretch yourself out, because you never know you might've been writing a newsletter three years, and then you do a podcast and it catches on. For some reason, you're like awesome. Less typing, more talking, let's go. So, but it's tricky. I wish I was better and had better advice for people on promotion and marketing.I'm not awesome at it, and it's not in my nature. So, begging for favors or telling people, even in my own newsletter, to buy my own book is very painful for me. I'm very sensitive to criticism about it. So, if people just all bought it and then made everybody else buy it, that would be a huge relief for me.[01:01:13] Nathan:That would be great. Well, along those lines, where should people go to subscribe to the newsletter, and then follow you on your preferred channel, and then ultimately buy the book?[01:01:24] Dave:I don't want like two or 300,000 people taking my site down. So let's go with if your last name starts between A and M you can start by going to NextDraft.com and sign up for the newsletter there. Or, you can also just go to the App Store and search for Next Draft. If you're N through Z, you can start with the book, and that's at: PleaseScream.com.It has links to all the various audio, and Kindle, and hardcover versions.[01:01:50] Nathan:That's good. I liked how you split the traffic, that way there's no hug of death, and we'll do well there.[01:01:57] Dave:I don't want to get fireballed.[01:01:58] Nathan:That's right.Dave. Thanks for coming on. This was really fun.[01:02:01] Dave:Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.

Enjoy part three of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed episodes 1 and 2 of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club where he was telling the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you are enjoying this interview series so far, and I hope also this motivates you guys to go over to the mixergy podcast and subscribe to everything that Andrew does. Like I said, he is my favorite interviewer and I think that what he does is second to none. So I hope that you guys enjoy him as well, and go subscribe to the mixergy podcast. But with that said, I'm going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back we will start into part 3 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview. Andrew: I actually got, I did see, I don't know, I didn't see the video you mentioned, but I did see what it looked like. Here's one of the first versions. He compared it to Clickfunnels, he said, I mean to Lead Pages. He said, “Look at how Lead Pages has their stuff all the way on the left, all the controls.” Oh you can't see it. Oh, let me try it again, let me see if I can bring up the screen because this is just, it's just too good. Hang on a second. I'm just constantly amazed how you're able to draw people to you. So this is the article from Lead Pages, this is the first landing page from Clickfunnels, this is what he created before, this is what you guys did together. This is your editor and h e said, “Look, if you're on Lead Pages, their controls, their editor is all the way on the left and it's just moving the main content to the right, which is not looking right. And I prefer something that looks like this, with a hundred pixels on the left, a hundred pixels…” I go, who knows a hundred pixels, it's like you, what is this? Russell: Dylan is obsessed with that type of stuff, it's amazing. Andrew: Obsessed. And you draw people like that. You draw people like Dave, who is just phenomenal. Dave, the traffic and conversion event that he was just talking about, is that the one that you went to? Dave: The one after that. Andrew: The one after that. Okay, we'll come back to that in a second then. So this became your next version, you brought on a new partner, and then you did a webinar with this guy. Who is this guy? Russell: It's Mike Filsaime, one of my first friends online. It actually wasn't a webinar, it was a live event. He was doing a live event in San Diego and he was like, “You have to come and sell Clickfunnels.” And I was like, “Nobody's buying Clickfunnels.” We had a free trial and like, we couldn't give it away. It was crazy. And he's like, “Well, you're on this website, you're picture is there, you have to come and sell Clickfunnels, and I need you to sell it for at least $1000.” Because the way it works, if you speak at someone's event, you sell something, you split the money 50/50. So he's like, “It needs to be at least $1000.” And I was all bummed out. I didn't want to do it. And the event actually started, but they were streaming it live online, so I was actually sitting at our office in Boise, watching it as I'm putting together my slides to create Clickfunnels, and then flew out to the event. And then we had a booth, and I don't know if I told you this, we had a booth and Lead Pages had a booth right across the little hallway, skinny hallway. And Todd's wife was manning our booth and then Lead Pages was right there, and it was so funny because she was not shy at all about talking about Lead Pages. She's like, “Yeah, we're like Lead Pages except for way better. We can do this and this.” And the other guy is sitting there like, right in front of her as she's telling them everything. And it was..anyway, I digress. It was pretty funny. Andrew: By the way, she's still at it. I saw a video that you guys created, you were talking to her and she goes, “I will be Clickfunnels.” I go wait a minute, you still had that fire, okay. So you were at that event. Russell: So we're at the event and there's probably, I can't remember, 150-200 people maybe in the room. So I got the slides up and Dylan was there and he was like, when we got to the funnels he was going to demo the editor, so I did the whole thing, showed the presentation and we demo'd Clickfunnels and at the end of the thing I sold. And I've been good onstage, but by far, that was the first time in probably 8 years that I'd seen a table rush, where people are stepping over the things, jumping around, trying to get to the back to buy as fast as they could. Andrew: What did you say to get them to want to do that? Russell: We made a really, I mean we gave the presentation, and gave a really good offer at the end. They get a year of Clickfunnels for free, plus they get training, plus they were going to get all these other things for $1000. Andrew: It was $1000 training and a year of Clickfunnels for free, and then they become long term members. And it was also called, Funnel Hackers? Russell: Funnel Hacks, yeah. Andrew: Funnel Hacks. And that's the thing that became like… Russell: The culture. Andrew: This culture, this tribe. It wasn't just they were signing to learn from you, they were becoming funnel hackers. That's it. Russell: I mean, that wasn't planned though. It was like, I was trying to think about a sexy name for the presentation, so I'm like ah, Funnel Hacks. And somebody owned FunnelHacks.com, and I'm like, I'm still doing the presentation that way. And then later we made t-shirts that said, “Funnel Hackers” and then now we got 4 or 5 people have tattooed that to their bodies, it's really weird. But anyway, that's what happened. We did that and we sold it and I remember going to dinner that night with the guys who were there, and Todd and his wife and everything. And we were all excited because we made some money finally. But I was just like, “You guys don't understand, like I've spoken on a lot of stages, and I haven't seen a table rush like that.” And I remember back, there was a guy, he passed away a couple of years ago, his name was Fred Catona. And he was a radio guy. He was the guy who did the radio commercials for, do you guys remember, it's got the guy from Star Trek, what's his name? Audience member: Priceline. Russell: Priceline. He did the Priceline radio commercials and made that guy a billionaire. And he told me when we were doing the radio ads, “This is what's going to happen. We're going to test your ad and if it works, I'm going to call you on the phone and let you know you're rich. Because if it works, it means you're going to be rich.” So I remember going to dinner that night and I told the guys, “Just so you guys know, we're rich.” And they're like, “What do you mean? We made $150,000.” I'm like, “No, no, no. The way people responded to that, I've never seen that in my life. We're rich.” The response rate from that, I've never seen. Andrew: And then you went to webinar after webinar after webinar. Russell: On the flight home that day I'm texting everybody I've ever met. “I got a hot offer, this webinar crushed it. We just closed whatever percent of the room at Filsaime's event. Who wants to do it?” And we started filling up the calendar. Andrew: And the idea was, and you told me you did 2 to 3 some days. And the idea was, they would sell somebody on a course, and then their members would then hear how your software and your funnel hacking technique would help up what they just bought and then they would sign up. You're still excited, I can see it in your face. And then this thing took off. And then you started doing an event for your culture, your community, and this guy spoke, Tony Robbins. Russell: Oh yeah, there's Tony. Andrew: One of the first ones. Was he at the very first one? Russell: No, he came to the third one, was the first one we had him come to. Andrew: Yeah? Why do an event? Why do your own live event? Russell: So we've done events in the past. I know events are good, but I'd sworn off them because the last event we did, I think we sold 3 or 400 tickets and less than 100 people showed up and I was so embarrassed. I was like, “We'll never do events again.” And as soon as this, as soon as Clickfunnels launched and it was growing, everyone's like, “We want to do a meet up. We should do an event.” All the customers kept asking. And against my, I didn't really want to do it, but at the same time I was launching my book, and I had won a Ferrari in this affiliate contest so I was like, “What if we did an event and we had the Ferrari there and we gave it away and then we're…” we had other ideas for giving away other cars and it became this big, exciting thing that eventually turned into an event. And that was the first Funnel Hacking Live event in Vegas, and we had about 600 people at that one that showed up. And that's where it all kind of, it all started. Andrew: And it built how much, how many people are you up to now? Russell: Last year we had 3500 people and we're on track to have about 5000 at this year's event. Andrew: 5000? Yeah. Russell: Those aren't free tickets. Each ticket's $1000, so it's…. Andrew: So how much is that in total revenue? Russell: From the event? Andrew: Yeah. Russell: So ticket sales, last year was $3 ½ million, this year will be over $5. But at the event we sell coaching so last year we made $13 million in coaching sales at the event as well. Andrew: Wow, would you come up here for a second, Dave? Do you guys know Dave? Yeah, everyone knows Dave. You know what's amazing… {Audience catcalls} Andrew: That's amazing. Dave: I don't know who that is. Andrew: A catcall. I saw a video, you guys have this vlog now, a beautifully show vlog. You guys went to sales force's conference, you're looking at the booths and in the video, do you remember what you did as you saw the different booths? Dave: I think that one I went and asked what the prices for each of the booths were. Andrew: Yes, and then you multiplied. And he's like, you're not enjoying the event, you're calculating ahead, how much. “10,000 that's 100,000….” It's like wow, right. You do this all the time? Dave: Yeah. It's a lot of money in an event like that. Andrew: And you think, and if this was not your event, you would be doing the same calculation trying to figure out how much they brought in today. Wowee. Alright when you went to sales force did you calculate how much money they probably did from their event? Dave: We were doing that the whole time, absolutely. Andrew: You saw the building, you had to know… Dave: Oh my gosh. 61 stories. Andrew: Why? Why do you guys want to know that? Why does, how does that… I want to understand your drive as a company and I feel like this is a part of it. Figuring out how much money other people are making, using that for fuel somehow. Tell me. Dave: I think it actually goes back to Russell and his wrestling days. We had the experience of going to Chicago right after that, and super just exhausted. And it was one of those things where he literally landed, we walked down and we're underneath the tarmac and all the sudden Russell goes from just being totally exhausted to a massive state change. Where he's literally right back where he was with his dad and he and his dad are walking that same path to go to, I think it was Nationals. And I saw Dan Usher, who was doing the filming, capturing that moment and it's that type of a thing for Russell. Where all the sudden it's the dream, where as soon as you see it, it can then happen. And Russell's just been amazing at modeling, and again the whole idea as far as just going at a rapid, rapid speed. I mean it's “Ready, fire, aim.” Andrew: It's not you gawking at the sales force, what's the sales force event called? Dave: Dream Force. Andrew: Dream force. It's not you gawking at how well Sales Force's event, Dream Force is doing, it's not you having envy or just curiosity, it's you saying, it's possible. This is us. That's it. Dave: It's totally possible. Andrew: It's totally possible. We could get there. And when you're sizing up the building, you even found out how much the building cost. Who does that? Most people go, “Where's the bathroom?” How much does the building cost? Dave: There's a number. Andrew: It's you saying, “We could maybe have that.” Dave: We can have that, yeah. Andrew: Got it. And so let's go back a little bit. I asked you about Traffic and Conversion because the very first Traffic and Conversion conference you went to, you guys were nobodies. Nobody came and saw you. Dave: We were put out in North 40 pasture, way, way far away. Andrew: And some people would say, “One day I'll get there.” you told Russell, “Today we're going to get there.” Dave: Well Russell wanted, he was speaking and so whenever you're speaking at an event, it's important that you fill a room, like this. And there's nothing worse than having an event and having no one show up. It's just the worst feeling in the world. And so he's like, “All we need, I gotta find some way of getting people into the event. I wish we had like some girls who could just hand out t-shirts or do something.” And I was like, we're in San Diego, that's like my home town. Russell: Dave's like, “How many do you need?” That's all he said. Dave: It's just a number. It comes down to a number. How many do you want? So we ended up having, within an hour or so we had 5 girls there who were more than happy to dance around and give out t-shirts and fill the room. Andrew: and the room was full? Dave: Packed. Andrew: Packed. And why wouldn't you say, “One day, the next time we come to Traffic and Conversion, the tenth time we're going to do it.” Why did it have to be right there? Dave: It's always now.   Andrew: It's always now. Dave: It's always now. Andrew: It's always now. It's never going to be the next funnel, it's never going to be the next product launch. I'm going to do whatever we can right now, and the next one, and the next one. That's it. That's who you are. Dave: That's how it works. Andrew: And now you're a partner in the business. $83 million so far this year, you got a piece of that. Dave: Yes. Do i? Russell: Yeah. Dave: Just checking. Andrew: Do you get to take profits home now? Dave: We do. Andrew: You do, you personally do? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Are you a millionaire? Dave: Things are really good. Andrew: Millionaire good from Clickfunnels? Dave: yes. Andrew: Really? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Wow. And you're another one. I was driving and I said, “What was it about Russell that made you work for him? What was it?” and you said, “I've never seen anyone implement like him.” Give me an example of early days, something that he implemented…you know what, forget that, let's not go back to Russell. As a team, you guys have gotten really good at implementing. Give me an example of one thing that you're just stunned by, we did it, it came out of nowhere, we could have been distracted by funnel software, we could have distracted by the next book, we did this thing, what is it? Dave: You're here on this stage with JP, and this was what 6 weeks ago? Andrew: and this whole thing just came from an idea I heard. You use Voxer. Why do you use Voxer? Russell: I don't know. Andrew: Because you like to talk into it. Russell: Yeah, and you can fast forward, you can listen at 4x speed, you can forward the messages to people really easily, it's awesome. Andrew: and it's just train of thought, boom, here's what I think we're going to…No, it's not that. I heard it's, “I have a secret project…” Russell: “I'll tell you guys about it later.” And they all start freaking out. “Tell us now.” Andrew: “Secret project. I don't know what it, it's going to be exciting.” They don't know what it is, going to be excited. Russell: Do you know how it started, this one? I was cleaning my wrestling room listening to you, and you were, I don't know whose event it was, but you were at the campfire, it sounded like. And you were doing something like this and I was like, I want my own campfire chat to tell our story. And then I was like, “Dave, we should do it.” And now we're here. So thanks for coming to our campfire…. Dave: That's how it happens. Andrew: And that's exciting to this day. Alright, thank you. Give him a big round, thank you so much. You know what, I didn't mean for this to come onstage, but I'm glad that it is. This made you laugh when you accidentally saw it earlier too. Why is this making you laugh? What is it? Russell: So we're not shy about our competitors, even when they're our friends. So one of the companies we're crossing out is his. That's why it's funny. Andrew: It's one of my companies. That's Bot Academy there. It's also a company I invest in, that octopus is ManyChat, I've been a very big angel investor and supporter of theirs. I'm not at all insulted by that, I'm curious about it. You guys come across as such nice, happy-go-lucky guys. Dave asked me if I want water, I said “Dave I can't have you give me any more things. I feel uncomfortable, I'm a New Yorker. Punch me, please.” So he goes, “Okay, one more thing. I'm going to give you socks.” So he gave me socks. Really, but still, you have murder in your eyes sometimes. You're crossing out everybody. This is part of your culture, why? Russell: It comes back, for me its wrestling. When I was wrestling it was not, I don't know, there's different mentalities right. And I did a podcast on this one time and I think I offended some people, so I apologize in advance, but if you're in a band and everyone gets together and you play together and you harmonize, it's beautiful. When you're a wrestler you don't do that. You know, you walk in everyday and you're like, those are the two guys I have to beat to be varsity. And then after you do that, you walk in and you're like, “Okay who are the people I have to beat to be in the region champ, and then the state champ, and then the national champ?” So for me, my entire 15 years of my life, all my focus was like, who's the next person on the rung that I have to beat? And it's studying and learning about them and figuring their moves and figuring out what they're good at, what they're bad at so we can beat them. Then we beat them and go to the next thing, and next thing, and next thing. So it was never negative for me, it was competition. Half the guys were my friends and they were doing the same thing to me, we were doing the same thing to them. I come from a hyper competitive world where that's everything we do. And I feel bad now, because in business, a lot of people we compete against aren't competitive and I forget that sometimes, and some people don't appreciate it. But that's the drive. It's just like, who do we, if I don't have someone to, if there's not someone we're driving towards, there's not a point for me. Andrew: And even if they're, even if I was hurt, “I accept it, I'm sorry you're hurt, Andrew. I still care and love you. We're going to crush you.” That's still there. Russell: And I had someone, so obviously InfusionSoft was one of our people we were targeting for a long, long time and I had a call with Clayton and someone on his team asked me, “Why do you hate Infusion Soft so much?” I was like, “I don't, you don't understand. I don't hate, I love Infusion Soft. I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for Lead Pages, I'm grateful for….” I told them, have you guys seen the Dark Knight, my favorite movie of all time? And it's the part where Batman and the Joker are there and Batman is like, asks the Joker, “Why are you trying to kill me?” And the Joker starts laughing and he's like, “I'm not trying to kill you. The reason I do this is because of you. If I didn't have you, there's no purpose behind it.” So for me it's like, if I don't have someone to compete against, why are we playing the game? So for me, that's why we're always looking… Andrew: It's not enough to say, it's not enough to just say “we're playing the game because we want to help the next entrepreneur, or the next person who's sick and needs to create…” no, it's not. Russell: That's a big part of it, but like, there's something… Andrew: Yeah, but it's not enough, it's gotta be both. Russell: My whole life there's, the competition is what drives me for sure. Andrew: And just like you're wrestling with someone, trying to beat them, but you don't hate them. You're not going to their house and break it down… Russell: Everyone we wrestled, we were friends afterwards. We were on the same Freestyle and Greco teams later in the season, but during, when we're competing, we're competing and everyone's going all at it. Andrew: Everyone's going all at it. That's an interesting way to end it. How much more time do we have? How much more time do we have? I'm going to keep going. Can I get you to come up here John, because I gotta get you to explain something to me? So I told you, I was online the other day, yeah give him a big round. I was online the other day, I don't even know what I clicked, I clicked something and then I saw that Russell's a great webinar person, everyone keeps telling me. Well, alright, I gotta find out how he does it. So I click over, “Alright, just give your email address and you can find out how..” Alright, I'll give my email address to find out how he became such a great webinar presenter. “Just give a credit card. It's only $4.95, so it comes in the mail.” It comes in the mail, that's pretty cool. Nothing comes in the mail anymore. Here's my credit card. It goes, “Alright, it's going to mail it out. Would you also like to learn how to use these slides? $400.” I go, no! I'm done. Russell: Welcome to the funnel. Andrew: Welcome to the funnel. I'm done. But I'm going to put in Evernote a link to this page so I don't lose it so I can come back. I swear. I did it. And this is my receipt for $4.95. Don't you ever feel like, we're beyond this? We're in the software space now, we're competing with Dropbox, we're not competing with Joe Schmoe and his ebook. And you're the guy who sold the, who bought the ad that got me. John: I know. Andrew: I asked you that. Do you ever feel a little embarrassed, “We're still in the info market space.”? John: No, I think it's the essence of what we do, of what Russell does. We love education. We love teaching people. I mean, the software is like the backend, but we're not software people. I mean, we sell software, but we teach people. All these people here and all the people at all of our events, they just want to learn how to do it better. Andrew: I don't believe it. John: Okay. Andrew: I believe in him. I don't believe in you. I believe that for you it's the numbers. Here's why I don't believe it. I'm looking in your eyes and you're like, “I'm giving the script. I'm good, I'm doing the script.” I see it in your eyes, but when I was talking to you earlier, no offense. This is why he does what he does. When I was talking to you earlier, you told me about the numbers, the conversion, how we get you in the sales funnel, how we actually can then modify…That's the exciting part. Don't be insulted by the fact that I said it. Know that we have marketers here, they're going to love you for being open about it. What's going on here? What's going on, keeping you in this space? John: Okay, from my perspective. Okay so, initially it was self liquidation on the front, which is what I was telling you. It was the fact that we were bootstrapped, we didn't have money to just like throw out there. We had to make sure we were earning enough money to cover our ads. And Russell had all the trust in the world in me, I don't know why he did, but he did. And he's just like, “Spend money, and try to make it self-liquidate.” I'm like, “Okay.” So we just had to spend money and hope that we got enough back to keep spending money. Andrew: And self-liquidate means buy an ad today and make sure that we make money from that ad right away and then software. John: Yeah. Andrew: And then you told, and then software's going to pay overtime, that's our legacy, that's our thing. And you told me software sucks for selling. Why? John: Software sucks, yeah. Andrew: Why? Everyone who's in info, everyone's who in education says, “I wish I was a software guy. Software is eating the world, they're getting all the risk back.” I walked through San Francisco; they think anyone who doesn't have software in their veins is a sucker. John: I asked the same thing to myself, you know. I was running ads, I'm like why can't I just run ads straight to the offer? Why do I have go to these info products? I want to get on the soft…. And then I was like, I feel like it's kind of like marriage. Like it's a big thing to say like, “You probably already built websites, but come over, drop everything you're doing and come over here and build websites over here on our thing.” And it's like, that's a hard pull. But “Hey, you want to build webinars? Here's a little thing for $5 to build webinars.” Now you're in our world, now we can talk to you, now you can trust us, now we can get you over there. Andrew: Got it. Okay, and if that's what it takes to get people in your world, you're going to accept it, you're not going to feel too good for that, you're just going to do it and grow it and grow it. John: Yeah. Andrew: What's your ad budget now? See now you're eyes are lighting up. Now I tapped into it. John: We spend about half a million a month. Andrew: half a million a month! John: Yeah. Don't tell the accountant. Andrew: Do you guys pay with a credit card? Do you have a lot of miles? John: Yeah, we do. In fact…. Andrew: You do! How many miles? John: In fact, the accountant came into my office the other day and said, “Next time you buy a ticket, use the miles.” Andrew: Are they with Delta, because I think you guys flew me out with Delta. John: Yeah, American Express is where we're spending all our money. Andrew: Wow. And you're a partner too? John: Yeah. Andrew: Wow, congratulations. John: Thank you. Andrew: I don't know you well enough to ask you if you're a millionaire, I'm just going to say congratulations. Give him a big round. John: Thank you. Andrew: Wow, you know what, I actually was going to ask the videographers to come up here. I wrote their names down, I got the whole thing and I realized I shouldn't interrupt them, because they're shooting video. But I asked them, why are you, they had this career where they were flying all over the world shooting videos for their YouTube channel. I'm sorry, I forgot their name, and I don't want to leave them out. Russell: Dan and Blake. Andrew: They were shooting YouTube videos, they were doing videos for other people. I said, “Why are you now giving it up and just working for Clickfunnels all the time? More importantly, why are you so excited about it?” And they said, “You know, it's the way that we work with Russell.” And I said, do you remember the first time that you invited them out to shoot something? What was it? Russell: It was the very first Funnel Hacking Live we ever had, and probably 2 weeks prior to that, one of our friends had an event and Dan had captured the footage, and he showed me the videos. “Did you check out my Ven Video?” I'm like, “Oh my gosh, that was amazing.” And I said “Who did it?” and he told me. So I emailed Dan and I was like, “Hey, can you come do that for Funnel Hacking Live?” And he's like, “What's Funnel Hacking Live?” So I kind of told him, and he's like, “Sure.” And it was like 2 weeks later and he's like, “What's the direction?” and I was like, “I don't know, just bring the magic man. Whatever you did there, do that here.” And that's kind of been his calling card since. He just comes and does stuff. Andrew: Bring the magic. He wants to have those words painted on the Toronto office you guys are starting. Literally, because he says you say that all the time. And the idea is, I want to understand how you hire. The idea is, “I'm going to find people who do good work, and I'm going to let them do it.” What happens if they wouldn't have done it your way? What happens if it would have gone a different direction? Russell: I see your question, and I'm not perfect. So I'm going to caveat that by, some of the guys on my team know that I'm kind of, especially on the design and funnel stuff, I'm more picky on that, because I'm so into that and I love it. But what I've found is when you hire amazing people like Todd for example, doing Clickfunnels. The times I tried to do Clickfunnels prior, build it was like, me and I'm telling developers, “here's what to do and how to do it.” And like there's always some loss in communication. With Todd, he's like, “I know exactly what I would build because I want this product too.” And then he just built it and he showed me stuff. And I'm like, “That's a good idea.” And he's like, “I did this too.” And I'm like, “That's a good idea.” And it's so much easier that way. So when you find the right people, it's not you giving them ideas, it's them coming to you with the ideas. And you're like, “that is a good idea. Go do it.” And it just makes, takes all the pressure off your back. So for us, and it's been fun because I look at, man, the last 15 years of all those different websites and the ups and the downs, the best people have always stuck. So we've got 15 years of getting the cream of the crop. It's kind of like, I'm a super hero nerd, but it's like the Avengers, at the end of, when Clickfunnels came about we had this Avenger team of people. And we're like, now we've put in our dues, now it's time to use all of our super powers to do this thing, and it all kind of came together. Andrew: Build it and build it up. And then as you were building it up, you then went to Sales Force. You guys invited me, you said, “Hey Andrew, we're in San Francisco, you're home town. Do you want to come out?” I said, “I'm going to be with the family.” And you said, “Good. Being with the family is better than hanging out with us.” But I still said, “What are you guys doing in San Francisco at Sales Force?” Because sales people don't need landing pages, yet you guys will probably find a way for them to need it. Then I saw this, this is the last video that I've got. There's no audio on it. I want you guys to look at their faces as they're looking up at these buildings, walking through the Sales Force office. Look, they're getting on the motorcycles in the lobby. They're looking all around like, “Oh gee.” Counting the buildings that are Sales Force labeled. Look at that! What are they doing? Not believing that this is even possible. And then just stopping and going, this is dream force. This is your dream. What did you get out of going to sales Force's event and seeing their office? Russell: Honestly, prior to Sales Force, I was kind of going through a weird funk in my business, because it was like, again there was the goals. So it was like, okay, we're going to do a million bucks, and then we did that. And then it's like, let's make 10 million a year. And then 50, and then this year we'll hit a hundred. And like, what's the next goal?  A billion, because a hundred million, 2 hundred million is not that big of a difference. And it was just kind of like, what's the point, what's the purpose? We've grown as big as any company that I know. And then last year, Dave and Ryan had gone out there and they were telling me stories like, “There's 170,000 businesses here.” And they were telling me all these things, and it sounded cool, but I didn't, and they were going crazy. You have to see this so you can believe it. But there's something about the energy about seeing something that makes it real. So this year I was like, I want to go and I want to see Benioff speak. I want to see the thing, the towers, I want to just understand it, because if I understand it, cool. Now we can reverse engineer and figure out how we can do it. So for me it was just like seeing it. I think in anything, any, as entrepreneurs too, if you're people believe that you can do it, you'll do it. If you believe you can lose weight, you'll lose 3eight. If you believe you can grow a company, and I don't feel like I believed that the next level was possible for us until I saw it. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is not ridiculous. Benioff's not, none of these guys are any smarter than any of us. It's just like, they figured out the path. It was like, okay let's look at the path. And then let's look at it and now we can figure out our path. Andrew: And seeing it in person did that for you? Russell: Oh yeah. It makes it tangible, it makes it like, it's like your physiology feels it, versus reading a book about it or hearing about it. It's like you see it and you experience it, and it's like it's tangible. Andrew: I told you, I asked people before they came in here, “What are you looking for?” and a few of them frustrated me because they said, “I just wanted to see Russell. I just want to see the event.” I go, “Give me something I could ask a question about.” But I think they were looking for the same thing that you got out of there. And I know they got it. I'm going to ask them to come up here and ask some questions, and I want to know about the future of Clickfunnels, but first I've got to just acknowledge that, that we are here to just kind of pick up on that energy. That energy that got you to pick yourself back up when anyone else would have said, “I'm a failure of a husband, I can't do this.” Go back. The tension that came from failing and almost going to jail as you said, from failing and succeeding, and failing again. And still, that is inspiring to see. I want to give the whole Clickfunnels family a big round of applause, please everybody.

My conversation with business owner John Towne about 2021 and the future. Today, I'm here with John Towne of Christian Companion Senior Care. John's a friend of mine, a staple in this community, and his business has taken incredible care of my family members and a lot of people we've referred his way. Dave: It's been a while since we last talked about your business. We've had a global pandemic. How have you navigated that, and how are you doing today? John: We've done pretty well despite the pandemic. Our business is slightly down around 10%, but through it all, we've remained open and kept all of our schedules without missing a beat so it's been very good for us and our clients. Dave: What are you most excited about doing for the rest of this year? John: Having the opportunity to grow and fulfill more people's needs. We've had to turn business away for 10 months, but now it's time to expand again. “John is a local business owner and provides a great service to the community.” Dave: I know you have lots of demand for your business. You have a lot of clients who are looking for a companion in their lives, and you are on the lookout for great people who are looking for a flexible work schedule. If there's somebody out there that would like to set up a conversation and join your team to help people in the community that could use their care, how can they best reach you to set up that conversation? John: The best way to reach me is our office phone at (717) 249-1700. You can also go on our website at christianseniorcarenetwork.com. Dave: I understand you want to give a shout-out to another business in the community. John: Yes, Brian Gobind of Quality Care Pharmacies is a fellow member of the Brand Ambassador program. He has done a terrific job of organizing and getting vaccinations spread across the county, and I think it's a wonderful thing that he's doing. It's been very helpful to our business, clients, and the whole community. Dave: John, thanks for being on with here with us today. John is a local business owner and provides a great service to the community.  If you know somebody who could use care or is interested in working with a great, giving company in the community, give John a call. They'll follow up and take great care of you, just like they have for me and many of my family members over the years.  If you have any real estate questions, please feel free to contact me at (717) 216-0806 or dave@davehooketeam.com. I'd love to help you. Talk to you soon.

Do you ever pay much attention to your feet? Our feet are our first point of contact with the ground, and we walk around on them all day. But most people just wear shoes and call it a day. And if you’re a runner, then all the more reason to maintain good foot health! So how do we take care of our feet? Dave Liow, an exercise physiologist and holistic movement coach, joins me in this episode to discuss feet and how to optimise foot health. We talk about some common foot conditions, and he also shares advice on selecting the right shoes and improving foot mechanics. For runners and everyone else, don’t miss this episode and learn how you can achieve good foot health!   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Find out how to take better care of your feet. Discover the benefits of going barefoot. Learn how to select the right shoe for you.   Resources Holistic Movement Coach on YouTube The HMC Footy Show, foot exercises on YouTube How to start looking after your feet on YouTube Exercises for bunions on YouTube Holistic Movement Coach website   Episode Highlights [03:29] Why Feet? When he started looking at movement, Dave noticed that the feet were one of the areas trainers had no idea about. People have 28 bones in the feet and 55 articulations from below the knee. Over a third of the bones here are in the feet, which tells us how important they are. It’s an area largely being neglected by movement experts and professionals. [05:45] What Shoes Do to Our Feet So much space in the brain is devoted to our feet and hands, and if you walk around with sensory deprivation chambers on them, you’ll lose that space. The bottom of the foot (plantar fascia) is extremely precarious, full of reflectors that send information to your brain about how you’re moving and interacting with the ground. By wearing shoes, we break that link. [09:56] Improving Foot Mechanics and Foot Health Keep your feet out of shoes as much as possible. Whenever Dave has the chance to go barefoot, he does. By going barefoot, you are giving as much information to your feet as you possibly can. Shoes provide a lot of support for your feet. Not wearing shoes will improve your feet’s strength. A healthy foot is a mobile foot. If you can’t do a lot with your toes, it shows you need to do some conditioning on your feet to make them smarter and stronger. Plantar fasciitis is one of the most common foot problems runners encounter. Listen to the full episode to learn more about some of the most common foot conditions! [17:21] Bunions and How They Affect Your Foot Health The exact cause of bunions is up for debate, but there is certainly a genetic and environmental component to it. A bunion is when your big toe starts to go in and some calcification forms around the joint. Bunions cause compressions in the foot, leading to problems in the nerves between the bones of your foot. There should be adequate space between your toes, allowing your foot to move and breathe. This also applies to your footwear—your shoe should have a wide toe box to give your toes enough space. You can do foot exercises for bunions to prevent the need for surgical treatment. [24:10] How to Deal with Plantar Fasciitis Typically, people who have plantar fascia issues will feel the bottom of their foot locked up, especially in the morning. Increasing your running distance too quickly and incorrect foot mechanics are common causes of plantar fasciitis. Icing the foot takes some of the pain away. Applying light pressure on the affected area can hydrate the tissues and make them healthier. Adding the right kind of load to it will help line up the fibres and make it strong again. Movement issues can disappear if you keep your body balanced. [29:55] On Running Shoes Dave and Lisa talk about a shoe that reportedly takes 4% of your running time. More track records are broken lately due to the improvement in the technology used to create running shoes. These new shoes are all about sports and performance, not health. There are different types of shoes for different purposes. Being barefoot all time can also cause issues because what goes on your skin can absorb what goes on it. [37:11] The Truth about High Heels When you add an incline to your heel, it lifts you and pushes you forward, breaking your kinetic chain. To avoid falling on their faces, people who wear high heels adjust by pushing their posture forward and arching the lower back more. When you’re in high heels, you’re effectively pointing your toes. This shortens the calf muscles, which can end up reducing the motion in your ankle, pulling you into pronation, and collapsing the arch. Wearing high heels often can change the way your muscles work. [44:21] Supplementation for the Cartilage and Joints Dave reads up on what he thinks is useful and what’s not, and he uses it on an individual basis. A decent multivitamin is a good place to start. Dave is a fan of probiotics and fish oil. However, if you’re sensitive to histamine, do your research first before taking probiotics. He also recommends working fermented food like kimchi and sauerkraut into your diet if it suits you. [51:08] Dave’s Take on Orthotics Dave thinks if you have a foot without a structural issue or a neurological deficit, you can do without orthotics. Orthotics provide support and are often prescribed to block motion. Foot mechanics change when you have your foot on the ground versus in the air. A lot of the mechanics that are put into orthotics aren’t done in a closed chain, which changes the whole way the foot works. If you think you may need an orthotic, consult first with someone who knows how they work and can give you proper advice. Dave takes a holistic approach when it comes to foot health [1:00:06] Dave’s Experience with Reflexology There are different types of reflexology, but it’s often associated with feet. The idea is your body is represented in smaller areas of your body that you can access. Dave has tried reflexology on himself, and it worked well. He particularly had some good results with the sinus points around the toes, which help to clear the sinuses. He finds it relaxing, because looking after your feet is looking after your whole body—it’s all connected. [1:02:52] How to Select the Right Shoe Be careful of the marketing of shoe science. In reality, it isn’t the shoe that makes the difference. Pick a neutral shoe that feels good. Research shows the more comfortable your shoe is, the more efficient you are. Get the lightest and the most minimalist shoe that you are happy with.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘I’m constantly dumbfounded by how little care people have taken on their feet’. ‘The foot and the ankle are a huge player in my model and certainly one that I think having a very big impact on how people move well’. ‘Shoe choice doesn’t start and finish when you’re done running—it’s throughout the day’. ‘Be careful where you expose your feet to because it will go in you and then we'll take it into your health. There's time and place for everything’. ‘It’s not about speed and power… It’s keeping everything as best as you can in optimal performance and stopping things before they fall down the cliff and being in that preventative space’. ‘If you think you can get everything out of your diet, even if you’re eating organic, you probably can’t… So certainly, some supplementation is useful’. ‘It’s not the shoe that does the running; it’s the person that does the running. Technique and conditioning and looking after yourself and your health has much more effect than a shoe ever will’.   About Dave Liow Having mentored many coaches and trainers in New Zealand and Australia, Dave Liow is following his passion for sport and health and love for teaching. As a health professional, exercise physiologist and the founder of the Holistic Movement Coach Programme, he is constantly striving to find ways to be healthier and move better. You may connect with Dave on LinkedIn or Facebook. You can also visit his website or watch his YouTube videos to learn how to take better care of your feet.   Enjoy the Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can know how to achieve good foot health. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast! Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Pushing The Limits this week. So I have two guests. Dave Liow this time. Now Dave is a repeat offender on the show, and I love having him to guest. He is one of my great mentors. And I hope you're gonna get a lot out of today's session.  Today, it's all about feet or so. This is one for the runners out there for sure. But also for just optimizing your foot health and also the whole kinetic chain, your feet where you connect with the ground obviously, and it affects your whole body. So we go to a deep dive into looking after yourself in regards to your feet. For the runners out there, it's all about playing for charters and bunions and picking the right running shoes. But there's also a whole lot of need for people to just have—want to know about good foot health.  Before we head over to the show, Christmas is coming. So if you want to grab one of my books, or one of my jewellery pieces, I’ll love that. You can head over to lisatamati.com. All the things are on there. And we're gonna be having a little break over the Christmas period. Maybe one, maybe two weeks from the show. I'm not quite sure at the stage, depending on the team's requirements over that period. So I hope you do have a good time of the Christmas. If you're listening to this afterwards, I hope the New Year's starting off really well for you. Before I go over to the show, just a reminder, I do have a couple of places left. We're nearly full on our one-on-one consultations, health optimization coaching. If you have a problem that you'd like to get help with, whether it's a high performance, whether you're a top athlete and wanting to get to the next level, whether you're wanting to work on your mindset, or maybe you've got a really complicated health challenge that you're just not getting any answers for, or you're having trouble sifting through all of the information and getting the right stuff—then please reach out to me, lisa@lisatamati.com. Right. Now over to the show with Dave Liow from the Holistic Movement Coach.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back. Today I have the amazing, the incredible, awesomest, Dave Liow on the show. Dave, welcome back, repeat offender.  Dave Liow: Hi Lisa. Lisa: I'm super stoked to have you today. Dave Liow: For the podcast you mean, right? Lisa: You’re a repeat offender for the podcast. Coming back to give us more. Not an offender in any other way.  Dave is an expert that I've had on before and he's definitely one of my mentors. And he's been to—Neil, my business partner for many years. And he is a mentor to many of the coaches and top trainers in New Zealand and Australia. So that's Dave's background. And you've got a background in physiology, don’t you Dave? Dave: Yes.  Lisa: You have a company called the Holistic Movement Coach. And will you—we're going to talk today about feet. People are like, ‘Wow, that's really interesting topic to talk about’. But it is. It's really, really exciting. Last time we had you on the show, we talked about the science of life, and that was one of the most popular episodes. So I'm really…  Dave: Great! Lisa: …happy to have you back on and to share some more of your absolute amazing wisdom. So today we've picked feet. What are we gonna to talk about, Dave? What are we going to share about feet and what you need to be aware of? Dave: Well feet’s one of those interesting ones. So from—as a movement professional, which is really my background. Though, being a holistic movement coach, if you just look at movement, you're gonna come unstuck pretty soon. So when I started looking at movement though, one of the things that I noticed that was one of the areas that were neglected were feet.  So we're seeing or looking at people's lumbar spines all the time and come to wideness not losing link from the top of the head. But a lot of trainers and movement professionals weren't even looking at people's feet. They had no idea what was going on, underneath those shoes of theirs. So for those of you who might think about maybe the back, whatever. Imagine if someone was wearing a big potato sack over their whole body, and you couldn't see where the spine was at trying to train them. So trying to work with someone and get them to move well without looking at their feet is to me just crazy.  Lisa: Yes, nonsensical. Dave: Yeah. And we've got 28 bones in the feet. So 28 bones, and we've got 55 articulations from below the knee. Lisa: Wow. Dave: So over a third of the bones are in the feet there. So that tells you about just how important that area is there. We have a look at the muscles that run down below the knee too. We've got 50 muscles. So added it, 276 ortho muscles, I think that's about right muscles. We have 50 below the knee so that shows you just how important there is. And it's an area that I think has been largely neglected by moving professionals. Lisa: Yes, it makes the total amount of sense. And we are on them all day, and we just shove them in a pair of shoes. And sometimes those shoes, you know, like ladies' high-heeled shoes, and tight shoes, and badly shaped shoes and don't do a lot barefoot—going out barefoot. Let’s start there, let’s start like—what does shoes do? When we put a pair of shoes on our feet? What sort of things are we taking away from our brain? Like, I always liken it to going around with a pair of gloves on my hands all day. I'm not going to be able to paint a picture and initiate anything, am I? Because I've just taken away all my proprioception and my ability to coordinate those fine motor controls with my hands. So we get that sort of analogy but actually, we do that to our feet all the time. Dave: And that's a wonderful analogy, Lisa. And so the representation in your brain of your body is called homunculus. So your brain has representations of all your different body parts. And some body parts are represented very, very—have a very large representation in the brain because they may have a lot of sensation and require a lot of fine movement.  So there's a huge representation in your brain of your face because if you look at the number of expressions you can do, and the articulations you can do with your tongue, your lips—there's a lot of area in the brain devoted to the face. Same with the hands as well. So you look at the fine movements you can do in your hands, isn't it? And how pink your hands are say compared to your elbow. It's incredible how much space in the brain is devoted to the hand.  Now one other is the feet. The feet have a massive representation in the brain as well. But with that, though, we know the brain is plastic. It can evolve and it will adapt to whatever environment you're putting it into. If you're walking around with that, the gloves on your hand, or in this case as one of my mentors Phillip Beach would say, ‘With sensory deprivation chambers on your feet’… Lisa: Wow. Dave: ‘…you will lose that representation in your brain’. And the bottom of the feet is extremely propiocept. Isn’t it? So many on that plantar fascia, that part of the foot there, is full of receptors which send information up to your brain. Giving you information about where you are, how you're interacting with the ground, and how you're moving. And without that, and by breaking that link there, there's a price to pay. Lisa: Yes, yes. And we just willy nilly wear shoes from the day we're born, pretty much. And if we're lucky in childhood, we might have run around bare feet a little bit. But most of us have got his feet and shoes all day. So you're saying that the—what did you call it? the munculus? Dave: Homunculus. Lisa: Humunculus? Dave: Homunculus.  Lisa: I never heard one before. I did, like, hear the representations. Like I don't know where I picked this up, some podcasts, some ways, something. If you have two fingers that you tape together for say a month. Dave: Yes. Lisa: When you untape them, you are unable to move them separately because the brain has wired them as being one unit. Another example of this is where people—they lose a limb. The brain still has the representation of that limb, even though the limbs are gone and they feel the pain of that limb. And this is like, the brain is like, ‘Hey, why? Where's my arm gone? Where's my leg gone’? or whatever.  And we're doing this to much lesser degree but when we don't need our toes and our things wiggle and wobble and do the proprioception. Okay, and we can improve our performance. Now, as runners are listening to us, let's talk about a little bit why this is important for runners to be able to sense the grounds and have good proprioception. So what are some of the advantages of having good—taking good care of our feet and maybe going bare feet a little bit. Dave: Oh, massive. One of my buddies, one of the things he has around feet—he has a lot of background in horse training. And he says, ‘No foot, no horse’. If you have a horse which damaged his hoof, then that's pretty much the end of that horse. They can't do a lot. And for you being an ultra-runner, Lisa, I'm sure you understand when your foot goes wrong.  Lisa: Oh, yes. I'm in trouble.  Dave: Yes, you are, you're in a lot of trouble. So I'm constantly dumbfounded by how little care people have take on their feet. I work on my feet every day without fail.  Lisa: Wow.  Dave: I'm certainly not an ultra-runner. I'm not the same class as you guys. But the amount of care that I take on one of my major movement teachers… I know this time when I lift… Lisa: So okay, what are some of the things that you would do to improve your foot mechanics and your proprioception and stuff? I mean, obviously, it's a little bit difficult with our podcasts and we can't show. I’ve got some video but… Dave: So there's that saying, ‘use it or lose it’. If your foot’s in a sensory deprivation chamber, you're gonna lose it pretty quick. So I like my foot to be out of things as much as possible, though... Lisa: Like right now? Dave: Yes. Quite a surprise, no shoe. Yes, I don't really wear shoes much. I wear [10:14 unintelligible] more than other shoes. If I'm running off-road, I'll certainly—and on concrete—I’ll wear some shoes. And we'll kind of talk about the shoe design a bit later on. But whenever I can go barefoot, I will. So if I can give as much information to my feet as possible—that's going to keep them smart, but also gonna keep them strong because shoes add support. That's what they are.  Lisa: Yes. Dave: You will not believe how much support shoes add. And you'll notice when you take them away, if you try and run barefoot, if you've been wearing sickly shoes with a lot of stability that added in there. So by going barefoot a fair amount of time, you get a very strong foot as well. So that doesn't come down to running shoes. And I guess we'll talk about running shoes in a bit.  But if you're wearing running shoes all day, even when you're not running, well, you're adding support there 24/7. I understand that some people might want more support when you're running, when you've got high forces going through your feet, but walking around and running shoes all day or highly-supportive shoes. You're basically walking around with. Lisa: Crutches. Yes, and making yourself lazy. You're making yourself lazy. Yes. Dave: Yes, right. So you're certainly going barefoot as much as possible. Now I do a lot of work at night to make sure that my foot’s mobile. A healthy foot is a mobile foot. So one of the things that they’ll often say is ‘the foot is not a hoof’. A hoof is rock solid and hits the ground and off the coast. So look at what you can do with your hand. Okay, you should do an awful lot with your toes as well and get them moving. So if you've lost the ability to do that, it really shows that you need to do some conditioning work on your feet and get them smarter and stronger.  Lisa: And if you don't, this is where some problems come up. If you can wiggle your toes and all that sort of stuff, you can prevent issues like yes—let's look at a couple of a common running problems that people get. Things like plantar fasciitis is a biggie, or even going up the leg a little bit. Like shin splints, and the problems in the calf, in the Achilles. Are these coming from the feet at all? Dave: Well, they’re coming from running. And there's some sort of mechanics going on there. But think of the foot, that's your first contact with the ground. When that goes wrong, everything in the chain will [12:37 unintelligible]. And if we think about something like a marathon, you've got 30 to 50,000 impact on the ground. That's a lot of race. So something's going wrong. This repetition over and over and over again. That's gonna end up breaking you.  And we're talking about forces, which you can't—two to five times your body weight depending how you're running. Now that’s a hell of force, a hell of a repetition. If something's not working right there, you will pay the price. Will you pay that price? Well, it depends.  But if we look at running injuries, straight off the top. Probably 15% of those will be at the knee. So the knee is normally the one that pays the price. But you know, I often say this in my lectures. Knee’s a dump. I knew that they kind of extracted and they've been—they have a little bit of rotation. But you see that one too much. And they have a little bit of sideways motion, but you don’t want too much of that either. So the knees are dump. So it's not only the knees fault that the knee gets some problems. It's normally the foot and ankle, or it's normally the hip, that's normally where I'll go.  And if you're a runner and you're getting knee pain, I'd be looking at either the foot and ankle. After the foot and ankle I will be looking at their hips straight away. There's something going wrong in those areas there. So about 50% of people will get knee pain more common in females than males by a long shot. Now, we look at kind of around, kind of Achilles as well. That's another area that can get a fair bit of problems as well. That's probably around… Lisa: That's mum, as usual. Ringing in the middle of the podcast. Dave: Calling mum. So around 10% of people get Achilles issues. That's another really common one and that's more a male thing. So that's the case, the 40 plus male is that actually the shoe. But then you'll get your IT band and touch that, which is probably around like 5% of the injuries. [14:32 unintelligible] can be in the foot or your tibia as well. And that's probably around 5% too.  So those are the main injuries. You'll see that getting running back, but knees if I was gonna go after one injury in running, knees are normally the one that pay the price. And there's certainly a big relationship between the foot and the knee. Ginormous. Lisa:  Right. So it's not always go up. Mechanics of the knees is the actual problem is down, or above, or below.  Dave: Yes. Almost always. Unless you've had an impact at the knee? Yes, you can treat the knee and always look at knee because if people come and see you for a knee injury, if you start playing the beat straight away, they'll go, ‘Well, hang on’.  Lisa: ‘What's this going on’? But it does make sense that the kinetic chain and the linking together and trying to find out where the original problem was coming from. Not just where—because like Neil's always said to me, ‘You know, like, if you've got a problem with your ankle, it can affect your shoulder’. And I’m like, ‘How does that work’? You know? Dave: Absolutely. Yes. Where it goes, nobody knows. Lisa: And how do you trace it back? How do you trace up a back problem to the ankle? Or the piriformis? Dave: If you know what it should look like and it doesn't look like what it should look like, well, what happens if you change and make it look more like it should? How does that change things? And that's normally in a nutshell the approach that I'll take. I guess that’s where you need to have a reasonable reference library of saying that, nothing more than my fair share of runners. And I'm sure you have too. I mean, if you feel someone running down the street, now you go, ‘That's not a very experienced runner’, or ‘Oh, boy, that's very experienced runner’. Well, you know that because you've seen so many runners.  So having that, I guess, experience in that database to draw from, and then understand the mechanics, and really add into it what you got. And I know what you gotta do in your Running Hot business. Well, you understand your body and you understand running technique, you can put that together and solve some wonderful problems.  Lisa: Yes, absolutely. But it is like a bit of a counterintuitive thing. I had a guy like, ‘Oh my piriformis’. Like Neil said to me the other day when he saw me, ‘Oh my God. Your bunions are getting really out of control. We got to do something about that’. And I'm like, ‘Oh, is it’? Sometimes you don't notice the things because you're just seeing them every day. You know? So let's talk about—let’s say some specific type of things that we are looking at. So let's look at bunions for that. What are bunions? And what effect can they have on the mechanics of your feet and up the body? Dave: Yes. So bunions—the quarter bunions is up for debate. There is certainly a genetic component to it. So either your mum probably has bunions. I guess. Lisa: Yes. Yes. Yes, you're right on money.  Dave: But that there’s also a big environmental part to it as well. So bunions, when your big toe starts to go in, then you'll end up with normally some calcification around that, well, that first joint—the joint in the big toe—that's probably a better way of saying it, around there as well.  What that does too is compresses the foot. The big toe goes sideways compared to it goes to the next [18:02 unintelligible], that compresses the foot, as well. So we get a lot of compression in that foot. They cause a number of problems. In between those bones in your foot. You've got a lot of nerves that run through there. So when those toes get compressed together, those nerves can get very irritated. Next, become very, very painful.  So and probably just as a little sideline here, if you were to pop your hands just in front of you there—if you're driving a car, listen to this, it's probably not such a good idea. But try this later on, you just put your hand down and look at your hand. So notice the space between your fingers there, that you put your foot down and have a look at your foot, you should also see space between your toes as well. Spacing’s really important to allow that room for the foot to move, to breathe. And also to get those space for all those straps in your foot to go. Lisa: And that’s with you naturally just having the foot there and not trying to spread them but just... Dave: Just naturally you should see space between your toes.  Lisa: Oh, wow. Dave: That you see a nice wide foot there. I love it. I love a good wide foot. Yes, so compression in those toes. And that can be a footwear choice thing too. So if you have shoes, and we've talked about toe box, that's the front part of a shoe. So we go out the toe box, this area through here. So the step front pair of shoes give a wide toe box in a shoe design that lets the foot spread out versus one that narrow and pushes the toes together. Lisa: Gosh. I should know about that. Yes. A lot of the shows that I get, I get sponsored by some brand or whatever. And then like I couldn't wear them.  Dave: Yes, the kiwi foot. Yes, and also this is a column that does this as well.  Lisa: Yes.  Dave: And with me, I've got a nice wide foot. I will not wish you for the narrow toe. It caused me nothing but problems. So footwear choice can be one of the things they also drive a bunion.  Now the other part too is that, when you've got that big toe and that big toes moving sideways, rather than going through the foot, you will often go inside the foot and fall into it. You get more pronation than what you normally have. So we lose the arch of the foot because the way the foot’s designed to move is your desire to move through and move through the big toe.  So, when we talk about the cycle of walking and running, we even have a phase of that called toe off. Because that's a really important part with a big toe pushes off. So if your big toe is going sideways, it's going to be—when you can't go through the toe, we’ll have to go around the toe. And that will cause a lot of wear and tear that can, after a while, that will start to break that foot down.  Now that may require you to drink, unless you do some exercises. In Sydney, we have some real bunion experts and my team, some of my guys love working with bunions. And you can certainly bring that foot back if you have surgery to repair bunions. So if you don't do the work, well the same thing is going to happen again. You just go straight across and they'll end up having to cut your foot open. Lisa: Yes, yes. Dave: My mum had bunions. But I gave her a little exercise program, and I'm pretty sure that's on my—that may be on my YouTube channel.  Lisa: Okay, we might get the link off here.  Dave: And yes, if not, I'll put it on there. And yes, she had some exercise to do for bunions. Her bunions pain disappeared and my mum's in her 70s. So you can certainly reverse that and have her feet are straighter. I’ve had some people come back from their podiatrist and I go to say, ‘What the hell have you been doing? What have you been doing? Keep doing it. Because your toes are straightening, and your foot in better condition’. Lisa: So you can sometimes avoid surgery. Wow, that's pretty amazing. That's pretty amazing. Dave: Well, and even if you have surgery, if you don't do the follow up, you're gonna end up having it again. It’s a huge amount of work with a huge amount of things you can do to help out your bunions. Lisa: Okay, that's really good because I have—got a very neglected bunion. I've always like, ‘Oh, it’s not causing me major troubles yet’. You know? Now I'm thinking, ‘Shoot. I need to address it’, because it's getting, like, Neil noticed that last time I was with him, it's getting worse. And I'm, ‘Oh, this is it? I thought it was the same old, same old’. Neil exclaimed no. And I've got troubles with piriformis. And I'm like, ‘I've been looking at piriformis trying in working on that’. And that could be, could be, could be, might not be, could be a knock on the feet there. Dave: So thinking about how that could relay. If you've got that bunion here, and your foot’s falling into pronation and it’ll take the knee with it, and it will take that whole hip and will rotate in and everything will rotate in there. What stops it? Well piriformis can stop that. So if piriformis is having to make up for a foot function issue there, well, that's worth working.  If you release piriformis, and get that guy—well, now you've got nothing holding your foot together. So where's that guy next to the public often deal on the spine? That's probably where we're going next. And then it could be somewhere else too, or it could travel to the knee. Lisa: Yes.  Dave: So, you know, we talked before about finding the source. Fixing the foot would be a really useful one. And if you're still on your feet, a fair amount, which knowing who you are, you certainly want that contact with the ground. Lisa: Yes. Yes. Yes. Dave: Sort it out. Lisa: Like paying attention to the little changes that are happening in your body because sometimes you think, ‘Oh, no, you know, it's all the same’. And then you don't see changes in your own body when you don't, when you see yourself every day, or your loved ones. Or sometimes you just like got your own little blind spots. Okay, so if we can dig that video out, we'll put that in the show notes for sure.  Let's talk about plantar fasciitis because this is a major problem. One of the most common running problems, especially the people who have up the distance very quickly or done some things here, what is plantar fasciitis and what can we do to deal with it one? Dave: So the left part of fascia is a layer of fat or connective tissue that goes right along the bottom of the foot. And as I mentioned before, that has a lot of receptors on it. So it's very rich in receptors, though can get extremely painful. And typically people who have plantar fascia issues will get out of bed and they'll try to put their foot down, and take a snack, or walk, and start walking, and the whole bottom their foot will be locked up. It'll take a while for that to loosen up so they can use that foot.  More often, you'll get that around the front of the heel, so none of them pointed the heel back in towards the centre of the foot. And sometimes that'll run up in bands as well. Now, the change in volume too quickly is your number one culprit which you mentioned. And that centre area. But certainly some foot mechanics can also have an issue there as well. So the plantar fascia is—in your foot, you've got well, definition you got 50 muscles that run below their knee—all could help control that foot. Your plantar fascia is there, it winds up, and plucky when you bend your big toe. It helps wind up that panic factor to help make the foot rigid to make it to leave so you can push off it.  That's one of the—there’s sort of two main functions of a foot. The first one is to allow the foot to splat is my technical term. Hits the ground and conforms to the surface that it goes to, number one function. Second one is it becomes a rigid lever so you can repel off it. Well, that's pretty much what a foot does. If you have kind of with a narrow down.  So we've got an issue there with that timing between backing and becoming a rigid lever. And the plantar fascia is wearing it somewhere there. Now there's—we can look at the plantar fascia, and you can try and treat the plantar fascia. But there's a lot of layers of muscles and a lot of timing that happened before that plantar fascia that’s been beaten up. So there's something gone wrong with the timing of how you're going from flat to rigid lever that's causing that.  And particularly if you overload into that. So if you've increased your volume too much, that's often the last well, kilometre, or 1000 footsteps that broke the camel's back. So I want to look at what's happening with the ankle and the foot, and I'm always interested in the big toe when it comes to plantar fascia. Lisa: Right, so that's your big lever. Point, really big toes when you push off and you get that elasticity sort of wound up. Dave: Massively important part that big toes. The amount of bones you have in that big toe, and for those of you with bunions, or pinchy injuries in that big toe joint as well. That's a really important one to get looked at. That can have a massive effect on everything up the chain.  Lisa: Wow. Yes. And what can you do about it? Are there some exercises that you recommend? Like, you might have fascia release, you make your ball rolling, that type of thing for the actual plantar fasciitis itself, the stretching and icing, and all that jazz? Dave: Icing can be nice, and that takes some of the pain away because it’s very painful. Having some light pressure in those areas too can help hydrate the tissues and get them healthier again. Because during—if you have some sore spots in their plantar fascia, often they won't have the hydration and the movement, because it's still layers and layers of tissue. Now, if you can get those moving better and hydrated, that will heal better.  Adding some load to it can be useful too, you just need to be careful where you are in their injury spectrum. But it actually does require some loading because the loading will help actually line up the fibres and get that strong again. But it needs to be the right type of loading starting slowly and building up. That sort of mechanics. In big toe, you'd be wanting to have a look at and also what's happening with the ankle. Check that you've got enough dorsiflexion to get into more. How much can you bring your ankle? If you've got a restriction on the ankle and a restricted big toe, your plantar fascia—well, everything in the foot but the plantar fascia, may end up wearing that one. Lisa: Yes, yes. And there's a couple of tricks to do with the dorsiflexion that I can link to another video there that Neil's done. Where you can push that—I’ve forgotten it—talus bone. Where you pushing it back into—because sometimes there’s some sort of a line. Yes, this one,  this one. Trying to find the words. Dave: Restoring their ankle dorsiflexion will be critical. I think that the foot and ankle, I'll look at three main zones in the body. In terms of my model for looking at movement. If you get the torso moving really well, that's very important for rotation. If you're running, you get the pelvis and hips moving really well, that would be my second zone. And the third zone would be the foot and ankle. So if you can get those three zones working well, normally I take 85% of the movement issues will just disappear. Right? And so the foot and ankle are a huge player in my model, and certainly one that I see having a very big impact on how people move well or done don’t move well. Lisa: Yes. Now, that's really good. So the torso, the pelvis, and the feet. So working on those areas in trying to get things balanced.  Dave: Yes, well, the big thing on that that's where I missed them.  Lisa: And those are the three areas—the key areas—and obviously it's the score a lot of work Dave but yes. It's everything from drills and exercises and it's what we do, what you do.  Let's look at now, for runners, talking about running shoes, and buying running shoes, and picking a shoe that's good for you and what you're doing. You were showing me some running shoes before and for people on the podcast, you can't see, but says Kipchoge ones, what do you call them? What are those shoes? Dave: So these are Nike's Zoom Fly shoes. So for those of you who are listening to this, rather than watching it, so this is the shoe that Kipchoge wore to get his sub-2-hour marathon. And they have fibre placement, which have an awful lot of recoil. And also, it is over four centimeters of foam here, but the foam has incredible amount of recoil.  Lisa: Wow.  Dave: So the theory is these will take 4% of your running time.  Lisa: Wow, that’s messed up.  Dave: There’s actually a spreadsheet, which I got hold up to. We can actually look at your running times and calculate how much of a difference it would make to your running performance. And yes, I mean, who wouldn't pay for 4%?  Lisa: Yes. Dave: Mostly runners, my straight line runners, will compete in these. And you'd be a magnet to, if you want to run fast on straight lines. These are extremely high and extremely unstable. If you wouldn’t run on trail with these, no way.  Lisa: Like the HokaOnes, you know, like really deep into the thing that a big sole...  Dave: No, these are high. And they're incredible amount of recoil. They do push you very much, your forefoot style. So what I’ve noticed for days, I totally didn't want to like these. Lisa: Cause you want more people to go bare feet. Dave: I ran in them last week. This is ridiculous.  Lisa: Ridiculously good.  Dave: The speed and ease is something else. And certainly most of my runners who run straight liner, competing in these and certainly in the meantime and now, unless athletes have sponsors, those are the shoes they are picking up. And why wouldn't you if you can—I mean getting 4% improvement in performance is there's something else, even with training. If you can get that by paying for it, why wouldn't you? Lisa: So basically, it's elasticity that they're using. It’s the spring, it's the coil, it's the ability to bounce you off the ground, it's like being on a trampoline. So you're gonna get more force.  Dave: Right.  Lisa: Taking your foot. Dave: Well, yes. The energy is returned a lot more efficiently. So you'll notice that there's a whole host of track records been broken lately, and then closed the marathon. And yes, the technology had a big part in playing it. I think that the next Olympics, the shoe feature extremely heavy. And a lot of a lot of other manufacturers are using this technology now. And they have a lot stricter with the technology they can use in those events now. So there's the level playing field.  Lisa: If you want to level the playing field, it's a thing—if we start having an unlevel playing field, and that's where it becomes a bit problematic.  Dave: And they're recouping broken now. And there'll be more broken with this sort of new technology coming through. Lisa: And from a foot health perspective, are they okay, in that respect, or you just didn't want to like them?  Dave: No, it's not about—it’s sports. Sports is not about health. Lisa: Performance is not about health. No Dave: No. Lisa: It should be but it depends… It’s not always the case. Dave: That's the point, though. I mean, if you wear these around all throughout the day, why would you do that? And having four centimeters of foam between you and the ground can  be put to sleep. So look, I would—if I'm wanting to do a fast run and I don't really do much of that anymore—but if I was doing a faster training run with them, with a buddy of mine who runs pretty quick, I would definitely wear these.  I'm walking all day barefoot. I'm doing full exercises throughout my day. I'm waking up my feet all the time to look after my feet in-between. So you know, this foot choice, shoe choice doesn't stand finished when you're running. It's throughout the day. And that way, you'll choose a different type of shoe. If I was wearing a shoe during the day, my normal shoe would be something that's very minimal, which allows my foot to feel the ground and do things, if I need to wear footwear. Lisa: Yes. And sometimes you don't, you know?  Dave: Yes. And I think that's an important thing too. We've always—there's always extremes. Yes. So I'll see the odd person is taken to the extreme, and they'll go barefoot all the time. And I think you need to be careful of that too. So from a health point of view, yes. So where I live, you wouldn't run—I have run some trails barefoot but there are sharp rocks around there. But also we have snakes there which is a bit of a problem. So I've done the odd barefoot run, but it makes you pretty nervous. The other part too, is what goes on your skin, goes in you. Lisa: Yes, me too. You talked about that on—what was it on? Something you were talking about the other day. You were talking the skin and your feet.  When your lectures that I was learning from you, right? And you were saying how your daughter was barefoot, which was great, but you went to get some picture with the car.  Dave: Yes.  Lisa: And she wanted to run across the full court bare feet and you said, ‘No, put your shoes on’. Dave: Yes. Gotta have shoes. If you go into public toilets, or you're going on a forecourt of a petrol station, if you're walking barefoot on those, those chemicals are getting into your thing.  Lisa: Yes. So also, if you're walking barefoot too, and certainly in Asia and I have an Asian background, you bringing into your house when you go in there too. So be careful where you expose your feet to, because it will go in you, and then we'll take it into your house. Lisa: Yes. Dave: So yes, there's time and place for everything. Lisa: Yes, yes, that's so true. And this is where some other minimalist shoes come in. So and like, social etiquette and stuff, you don't—you can't go to the gym without some sort of footwear on. Most places will tell you off. Well, gym maybe. Dave: My gym, we actually have a gym shoes off policy, right? If we want people to move well, we need all the sensors working well. So we want as much information from those shoes from those feet as possible. So people understand where they are on the ground. Then we have covered where people put their shoes in.  And now not everyone is trying to barefoot. And we have some people who have some structural foot issues who do require some footwear, as well tend to move well. So, if you drop a dumbbell on your foot, having a shoe isn't really going to help you. But as one of my main etiquette contains the meat. Lisa: And most gyms prescribe that you have to have shoes on when you go to them. They do. And these social situations, you can't go to the opera with bare feet. It's not cool. And that brings me to ladies in high heels. What are we doing to our bodies when we wear… Dave: Oh boy. Lisa: …lovely, elegant? We look very elegant in high heels. What the hell are we doing to ourselves? Dave: Okay, so yes, you mentioned that word kinetic chain before. And the idea there is when you change one part, it will change something else with. That's what a kinetic chain does. Okay, a closed kinetic chain. So when you add an incline to your heel, and lift yourself up there, that pushes you forward. So if you have a stiletto on or something very high, you’ll fall on your face unless you adjusted. So where will you adjust? You'll normally do that by pushing your pose forward, by arching your lower back more. So often, the problem that you'll see with high heels will be it changes up the chain.  As well as that when you're in high heels, you're effectively pointing your toes. So if you're in a flat shoe, you'd have been in your ankles. In a high heel, your toes are pointed more. So what that does is that will shorten the calf muscles. And that’s why, if you look at a woman in high heels, she has more definition in the calves because those calf muscles are shortened up. But if you're wearing high heels an awful lot there, what that will do is shorten up that calf, it may make it harder for you to bend that ankle again, which will cause you some different issues, and for those of you who are a bit more technical minded too, peroneus longus, okay, will be one of the muscles which is a part of the action which will be shortened. The peroneus longus comes around a riff underneath the foot and a wrench into the base of that big toe. So it pulls you down into pronation so it collapses the arch. So if you've been wearing high heels an awful lot, that peroneus longus can shorten, which can end up reducing your amount of bend in your ankle and also will pull you into more pronation. Apparently, the good thing that allows you to splat, but remember we also want to make the foot rigid after that so it can repel often.  But if you end up mucking around with muscles, and changing the way they work, and certainly by placing a high heel, and you're certainly going to do that, that will do that. And it will change the way the peroneus longus works and wears out the muscles, which will change that timing, that intricate timing that we need to have in the foot. Lisa: Wow. And so ladies, keep your high heels for special occasions and not everyday use if you can. And I mean I—working with mum and she was in the bed for a long time, bedridden. Drop foot, you know, same thing basically. But just on a horizontal because she couldn't stand so she couldn't get that dorsiflexion happening, and then I was not aware of it at the time that this was a problem when it was happening, and I caught it quite late. And then we had to have her in a boot to try and straighten that out and now she's got a rigid ankle pretty much. So she's got no dorsiflexion, therefore she can't roll over the front of your foot and off nicely. So her whole gait is more flat footed. And these things knock on very early. And then it happens quite quickly that you start to get dropped foot.  Even if you think about life, wake up in the morning and that first time the foot hits the floor, and you've got like, ‘Oh yes, stuff. Stuff on the calf muscles feeling scuffles within the Achilles. And this is a—getting onto the Achilles toe’. If you're getting that initial stiffness when you get up in the morning, there's something brewing and maybe start to look at it. Achilles is a good—that's a good indicator that so step in the morning. How are you feeling? If you're bouncing out of bed and you can get out of bed and run down the hallway and you find you've got nothing, then you probably, not too bad. Dave: I think that's a great point here. You should wake up feeling reasonably good. I mean it’s not a margarine commercial. You shouldn't jump out of bed, ‘Hey. Hello world’. That's probably the only thing you'd be happy about if you're eating that stuff. But that's a whole other conversation.  I had a professional athlete who I was working with, and we were talking one morning and was actually helping, deciding—standing up, deciding we were gonna go with him. And he said, ‘Yes. So how things young is young? What’s your story? I didn't have a car stand up. And then I go, ‘Sharon district’. About 40 minutes later, I'm ready to move. That's normal, right? ‘No, no, that's not normal. Your body normal is not being in pain and struggling to move. That's not normal..  Lisa: Oh but it's age, Dave. That's the next thing, he’ll tell you. It’s just normal aging. Dave: So now I think too, you know. Let’s you've got a—sorry for those of you who are in different hemispheres. But a classic car in the southern hemisphere was a Ford Cortina. Now imagine you've got a 1984 Cortina in your garage, and it's chrome. It's beautiful. And you've looked after it wonderfully. That car drives fantastically in your own town, you think this is the best car ever. But if you take a 1980 Ford Cortina, and you don't maintain it, and you just drive it hard, you won't have it here today.  Lisa: Yes.  Dave: Okay. So if you've got a classic car, it can run really well. But you need to put some extra care and maintenance into it.  Lisa: Absolutely. Dave: That's all it is. So, but you can have a young—you can have a new sports car. You can trash it's probably gonna be a little bit better. But yes, so the older you are, the more keen you’re taking care of your classic car. Lisa: We fit into the classic category now.  Dave: That's another spin on that too. You know, ages is one thing.  But I kind of look at these young athletes, I think you're—you can you can keep up with me. You haven't got the experience I've got. Play that card. It's not there's not just physical is a lot more that goes on to it. And take a look at the outer world. And know that certainly, the more of a mental game that's required, the better it suits your experience.  Lisa: Yes, in Roman times, like, it's not about speed and power after a 100k, it sort of starts to come down to… Dave: Yes. Lisa: So yes, it is. It's an attitude for life. There's a number of rounds on the clock, but it's keeping everything as best as you can in optimal performance and stopping things before they fall down the cliff, and being in that preventative space. And that's what we're both all about. And that's why you’re taking good care of your joints, and your muscles, and your hydration, and all of those exercises is really, really key. Let's talk a little bit now around, what's your take, I'd like to hear just on general and for joints and cartilage and stuff? Things like sulfur, MSM, conjugated salt, and so Glucosamine, that sort of supplementation for cartilage and joints you know anything about this? If it’s a cool thing or not? Dave: It's really cool at one of my key areas. Look, supplements are strange one. And certainly my take on that really changed over the last few years. And now if you think you can get everything out of your diet, even if you're eating organic, you probably can't. So there's certainly some supplementation useful. I'm very big on getting an evidence base on that though.  So there's this push where we've almost seen our science as lying now. We need to be able to do our supplementation, to what you want to choose. But what I found now is basically you become a victim to marketing now. So there's a fine line between the two. So I read up on what I think is useful, and what's not, and I use it on an individual basis. But I'd like to cover the basics first, and often think that we're thinking they're tasting things like curcumin. Another problem with curcumin by the way, as well some other some other supplements here when you're not even looking at the basics. So do the big rocks first. Lisa: Yes, I'm big on those pretty you know those ABCD. Selenium, zinc, magnesium-type base. Not sexy, but very essential for genetic functions. Yes. Dave: A decent multivitamin is probably a bloody good place to start, and then you can start fine tuning from there. Sure. I take a few other things, as well. I'm a big fan of a decent probiotic, and veering those probiotics around. I think that's really important. And I use that as a food source as a supplement. I do like my fish oils. I think there is a part to play in that.  Lisa: Yes. Those are wild. Dave: Wild, wild, wild small fish is the way you want to go and watch out for the processing on those as well, they can get... Lisa: Very very important to get the right fish source, you get right fish source ,and you'll be doing the opposite to what you need to kick the company out especially... In our next conversation. I know we're getting a bit off topic but probiotics, I've done quite a lot of study around the probiotics, and some of the problems of probiotics, and has domains, and causing inflammation and allergic reactions. Have you found any one in particular that you'd say, ‘Yes, that one's been really good for a lot of people’. This got a good clinical base to it? Dave: Yes. There's a few brands that I tend to like. These… Lisa: Deep in here without any proof on that question, but I was interested for myself because I'm looking at our probiotics. Dave: Syntol is a brand I quite like. Syntol, S-Y-N-T-O-L iis a brand that I've used for probably the last decade. That's an industrial strength one which works really well. Also Bio-Heal is another one, which I think is a pretty decent one. And the reason I like those brands is that they don't need refrigeration. And the Syntol is more spore one so it can be a bit bitter as well. Lisa: Yes. Because it's got to get through the digestive, the stomach, the action, into the lower. And I know like the science in this area is still a very much an evolving space. And a lot of this, I have had a couple of clients been on probiotics that you get out of off the shelf or supermarket type thing. They ended up with histamine reactions and things like that because they do have often—so if you're sensitive to histamine and you might want to check it out a little bit more, and just be toe in the water and find out. So it's a little bit hard to know because I think the jury's still out in some regards. But I think but the spore based ones… Dave: Yes, there seems to be built in there. I feel like most fermented foods, they won't suit everyone, for sure. They served me really well. So I make my own kimchi. I make my kombucha. I make my own sauerkraut. Do some water kefir as well. I often use a little bit of fermented foods to help my gut work. And every culture and everywhere in the world has some form of fermented food. And we realize as developing communities that we need to look after our gut health needs, and we didn't have refrigeration was probably the other thing as well. Then those are very health giving. And it still exists in most cultures today, and it's certainly something that I'd recommend if it suits you to work into your diet. Lisa: Yes, and that is where I know—working with the PH-316 epigenetics programme that we do that there are certain biotypes. And one of them that can miss to watch the amount of fermented foods because it can again—cause histamine problems in inflammation in the body—so that is a bit of a bit more a personal genetic thing too, as rather than across the board.  But to be fair, I think that's everything needs to be personalized nowadays. And we've got a lot I wouldn't say we've got an all sass but there is a lot of science around what type of thing for what person and which genes, for which foods, and I don't think it's by any means perfect yet. The science behind it, but we can get a bit of an idea on some of these things. So just because it's healthy for Dave doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be healthy for Lisa, you know? So a little bit of experiment, and I'm a big experimenter, versus showing one of my athletes into my pantry. And it looks more like a cumulus isn't well supplement shop rather than a...  And I don't take on things all the time but I'm always experimenting on my own body, and trying to optimize, and to see what sort of things are having which effect and then trying to take note of it, and keep track of it, and trying to work out. A little bit hard when you keep chucking 100 variations at things. It's not exactly a clinical study where you do one variation. But… Dave: Eating is one.  Lisa: Eating is one. Yes, exactly. And keeping testing. But back to the whole foot scenario talking that—I mean, you and I can end up in bloody all sorts of areas. What's your take on orthotics? I wanted to ask that again. Jury's out of my mind on orthotics and I'm not sure. Dave: That’s a real polarizing one. I'm gonna make myself unpopular with some people here, but here's my take on it. I'm not—I'm not a [51:17 unintelligible]. If you have a foot that hasn't got a structural issue, or a neurological deficit, you can work without orthotics. Okay, so orthotics add support, and they will normally block motion. Okay, that's what they're pretty much designed to do.  So normally, when they describe orthotics, they'll look at, ‘Okay, there's too much motion. We will block that motion so that the foot can do its thing’. You block motion, some way though. What we know is that motion will be taken up somewhere else. And in that closed chain, where that motion goes will often have problems.  So let's have a look, if you've got a foot that doesn't dorsiflex well, so the ankle doesn't bend well. Now what will happen is the only way you can bend their ankle now is to roll inside or to over pronate. That's the only way you can go there. But rather than go through the foot, you go around the foot now. So what may happen is, if you have no thoughts to stop that pronation, go, ‘What's happened now’? Okay? Now you can't pronate the foot, you can't work at the ankle, what's going to go next? You may end up taking up a knee. But now you'll end up with a knee issue, when you may come in with a foot issue. You may end up with a knee issue, or it may end up going into the hip or the lumbar spine, or as far as into the neck, which is a common thing or even to the head.  I've seen from people who've had a foot issue and they get hit out when they start hitting the pavement because it goes right through the chain. And that's it ends up tearing them up. So when you enter [52:53 unintelligible], if you've got a painful foot, it can be very useful temporarily to change what's going on, or a structure or neurological deficit. Otherwise, think of a crutch.  Okay, if I break my leg, ‘Oh, I want to break around my knee without smashing my knee to smithereens. I want to break around my knee and I want to wear crutches to start with’.  Now, oh boy that feels so good having extra support in there. And I've restricted that range around my knee because it's too painful to move. But 10 years later, I wouldn't want to be still be wearing that same brace on my knee with a crutch. And I wouldn't want to go in there each year and get that brace changed a little bit and realtered. So I look at some of your thoughts that come into me and I look at that foot and I look at your foot and I go, ‘I have no idea’. I kind of—foot mechanics is tricky stuff. But I've put a fair bit of work into it. Like I understand how feet generally work, I think. I look at that foot and I look at that person, and I think, ‘I can’t see what’s that relating to at all’. I don’t know what you’re seeing, but that's not what I see.  And there’s a few things around some of the theory of orthotics which are a little bit tricky around foot mechanics change when you have your foot on the ground versus when you—whether your foot in the air.  Lisa: Of course.  Dave: A lot of the mechanics that are put into orthotics aren't done in a closed chain, which changes the whole way the foot works. Though, there is some stuff there. I've had piles of orthotics thrown away over the year. I have products come into me and I go, ‘What?’ And I'll test them. It'll take people with them, without them, and they'll go better without them. I had some people that do need them though, because they had some neurological issues for their head structural foot issues, where their foot is broken beyond repair, where it does need some help.  And making good orthotics, definitely—for those of you who maybe have a diabetic foot or have had some issues around there. Some of the orthotics I've seen that have come and have been worked about and are amazing, though there is some there are some amazing work on orthotics. And that's probably my outtake on this one. So finding someone who's very good at that, and looking after a foot in trouble is a real skill. Lisa: It is. I've got a friend, Lisa Whiteman, who owns a China podiatry clinics, right, throughout New Zealand, and their stuff is next level. But the science and technology that they have in order to get the right things for that. So if you're thinking of doing it, make sure you go to somebody who really knows this stuff, and not just any sort of orthotic. And test it, and try it, and see whether you're getting something through up the train, fix that. And question with the immediate, long term—I've never had any benefit out of an orthotic. And I've only got, again, one anecdotal in me.  But we're not—like dealing with someone like my mum with a neurological problem, and limited dorsiflexion. I am considering the next opportunity I get to take down to Wellington to go and see my friend and go into her clinic and get her an assist, that might be, for example, a situation where something like that could be called for, because she's lost that motion and the ankle, so we haven't got it to work with. Dave: So we do have problems from the bottom up. So the foot can cause a problem going up, but also it can probably be going

Welcome to the recruiting hackers podcast. A show about innovation, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Hello, and welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. Today I have a very special guest on the show. I normally talk to people from the practitioner side. But today  I have the pleasure, the awkward pleasure of talking to what may be perceived by others as a peer or competitor as the chief of staff for Wade and Wendy.Wade and Wendy is one of  the early companies that got into the conversational AI for recruitment space and I first heard about this company, I think five years ago at the very beginning. Dave Mekelburg is the chief of staff and joining us today  for chats, which will be a little different and a little bit more about, I suppose, about chatbots. Right Dave? If that's okay with you. Welcome to the show!Dave: Great to be here. Always excited to talk about chatbots. I don't get to do it enough. Especially in this context. And I will say, you know, I cheat a little bit. So I'm our chief of staff and also our head of people. So I am technically a practitioner.I do oversee our recruiting and hiring. So I can speak a little bit to that. So I won't be a total foreigner, but I'm very excited to talk about chatbots and talk about, you know, what's happening in the recruitment mission: “hacking”. Max: Awesome. Were you the guy who came up with a job title conversational designer?Dave: Oh, that's a good question! Max: I picked that out from a blog post. By your CEO. And I saw that conversational designer and I fell in love with it so much that I immediately posted for that job, myself at Talkpush, you know, within a week. And I started collecting applications. We hire a bunch now, and it has taken off, and I always thought maybe you guys came up with the term.Dave: Oh, I would love to take credit for that. Let me think where we first probably encountered it. So there were some early, going way back in time, like PullString, which was like a Pixar backed, conversation design platform. We had met their team and they had somebody, they call it a conversation designer. I think Apple, in Siri, I think a lot of this Siri team was starting to use that phrase. But you know, certainly when we posted that job it got some ice, because people were like, conversation designer? I've never heard of that. Max: Yeah. We got the same thing. And I also... One of my heads of conversational design, she said that when she changed her job title from product manager to conversational designer, the volume of interest she got on LinkedIn also showed up. Considerably. So it's, it's not a good retention strategy, maybe a good hiring strategy. Conversational designer. Great place. A great way to advertise, but also not a great retention strategy because people will come out and try to hire them away from you.And so maybe if I'm lucky, I'll find out who came up with that term. And I'll be on a goose chase, Dave  I'll start looking at the people at Siri or at Apple to see if I can find the person who coined that. But yeah. Definitely chatbots have been around for longer than we've been around.Dave: That's definitely true, but they've, It's the rate of change... And I think you've probably seen us over the last few years. The rate of change has been astronomical and just in terms of the penetration, the familiarity from the average person that's interacting with the chatbot. When we first started, we were doing user testing and, you know, having people chat with the bot about work. Like talk to me about what it is you want to do and what it is you'd like to do.And it was such a novel experience for people. And now, you know, really up and down the... You know, across the country, in every corner. Everyone has some experience with a chabot, whether it's, you know, through a bank teller or through a customer service bot, you know, the depth of penetration has gotten beyond people that are interested in technology or people that are interacting with, you know, the hot new FinTech startup, things like that. And really gotten into the hands of the average person so that, you know, when we started, we built so much into the experience to make sure that this was intuitive and, it didn't scare people that, you know, might have some emotional, anxiety about talking to a bot about AI and automation in their lives. And get them to put, you know, trust in helping us get them the right opportunity and we're in between them and, you know, the right job.And that's the responsibility that we take really seriously. And we had to build an experience where people would trust and believe that we would guide them appropriately. Given that it's a technology experience. And I do think over the last few years, that comfort, that familiarity just looking at the feedback that we get and things like, that there's way less like, wow I've never  seen this before, too what a high quality conversational experience. We get feedback about the conversation design and that's just something that I think a few years ago, your average, you know, sales person and applying for an entry level job wasn't leaving feedback about our bots conversations design. Max:  I got completely thrown off. You're putting me back to 2018 or 2017, I was in India meeting with, I think it was Expedia, and I was presenting our technology chatbots for recruitment. And this gentleman, this engineer that I met started showering me with questions about natural language processing and how intensely have we mapped that out? And what is our taxonomy of not being tense? And I thought, where did I step into, I don't know, half the words he's using. But I haven't had that experience too often. Still most people  they're past the point of, I've never worked with a chatbot before. They still feel like it's a bit of a dirty word, and that it may ruin the candidate experience, but obviously if they're working with us they are past that as well. I guess it's a bit of a marketing job to change the perception and say, well it's not a chat bot, it's a conversational agent or, you know, it's a virtual agent, just different ways  of renaming it.  Our system is very much built on the handover to the human and having a hybrid experience, I think, and this is perception. I haven't really tested your product, but I think Wade and Wendy comes from a deep tech expertise where you have PhDs who work in your company. And so you're building intelligence that works without the human intervention, perhaps. Dave: Yeah. So, the notion of human intervention is a really interesting one. So let me lay out for you, a little bit of how we approach this problem. Right? And where we started from. We started from a place of recruiting that we saw. Our CEO and founder is pretty adventurous for deep tech and wearables for manufacturing and farming, you know, deep marketing tech in the early days of that industry. His first job out of college was as a recruiter, and he felt that pain of I love the problem. And everyone at our organization to a T, it's something that we screened for in our hiring process, is really excited about solving the hiring problem. Which is getting people the right opportunity as fast as humanly possible.And that experience kind of started it, you know, it is what bubbled this up. And there's so much wasted space when it comes to the recruiting process. So much time spent looking up email addresses and a dozen tools. And you know, spending all your time on LinkedIn, crafting the perfect email, you know, having the same 15 minute conversation over and over again, only to find out that the candidate, actually moved two years ago and they're not really, you know, they're not open to working in your location, all this kind of running in place.And you're never sure when you're a human recruiter connecting with a candidate, if this is the right fit. And as a candidate, you're not sure, like is it worth my time to even connect with this recruiter? And you have this kind of core problem in place, that we wanted to take that deep tech and automation approach to, which was, we want to clear out all of the road recruiting tasks that get in the way of humans coming together. So, when you say human intervention, our goal is to have as little human intervention in the bot, the chat experience itself. So, you know, in terms of what we do, our platform helps automate. And for an enterprise company it helps automate three core functions. Sourcing. So identifying a candidate for a role, engaging them in an informational interview. Getting them excited about the opportunity, a few basic qualifying questions, and if they're a fit, bringing them into the hiring process. Screening, so somebody applies to a job. They go through a first round, deep dive interview with our bot, all kinds of written texts.And the last is coordination. So scheduling, messaging, you know, don't forget your interview is tomorrow at 1:00 PM that kind of work. Our goal is to do all that. So recruiters can come in and see, okay, this candidate is excited, they check off all the boxes. Here's the AI recommendation that is leading to me to believe they're a fit. And I'm sure that this candidate is worth my time. Now let me as the recruiter, build a relationship, guide them to the hiring process and, you know, help get them across the finish line. We do believe that ultimately recruiting is still always going to boil down to a human decision making process. On the other side of the equation, we have a candidate facing a bot. So Wendy works at the enterprise and Wade, we put out into the world as kind of an AI career guide, and you chat with Wade about what you've done in the past, what you'd like to do there, and personality tests. So you can get a real sense of who you like to work with, how you like to work, why you work?Is it a matter of, I just want to grow my career in whatever way possible. I want to maximize my salary because I want to be able to take... Max: Wait, wait… Is this Wendy or Wade?Dave: This is Wade. Max: I would actually open up more to a Wendy than I would to  Wade but fine. Dave: So this is one of the things. And, I'm going to ask you a question, which I hope is not too uncouth because, you know, I'm on your show. One of the things that we saw from the beginning, which we were not ready for was. There's something about when you know you're chatting with an AI personality, and I know for you and for us,  that's key to the experience. Is letting people know, hey, this is not an immediate personality.There is a level of trust, people don't feel judged. And not everyone wants to open up to it necessarily, but we had in our early days, we had candidates sharing stories that recruiters, you know, that have been doing it for 20 years had never heard. People surviving, you know, terrorist attacks, people going into depth about a personal tragedy that they had overcome, and how it related to the job that they were applying for. And these really deeply personal stories. And when we would conduct, you know, surveys and user interviews afterwards, there's this theme of, you know, I wasn't sure about this, but once I started talking, I realized, you know what? I can just tell my story. And I can get it out of the way, and there's no judgment.And, you know, work is such a personal, specific context. Right? And I would love to hear from your side of the table, like what do you see when people are interacting with Talkpush? Like, how do they feel about it? Max: Well, first, to your points, I think it's a good medium for getting stuff out that would be sensitive. So, an exit interview would be a good medium to use chatbots because, you know, you're talking to an AI. And so you can say things as they are a little bit more, perhaps than if you're talking to HR. Because HR can pull back your salary, but the AI is not gonna hold back, hopefully.And on the matter of people opening up. We do, you know, very large volumes and most of it is you organizing, and sourcing, and screening, and coordinating. But really, we try to keep the sourcing bids, which is like asking questions directly to the job as lean as possible.And then screening is also quite lean and this is the bulk of the volume. And we collect answers that are text, but also audio and video. So a video is the chance for people to express their creativity and we see some nice things there, of course. And on text it's usually a little bit faster, because people are on their mobile phones and they're not going to go on forever.So yeah, that's how I would describe it, but there are  different pools of population because we work in eight or ten countries that have different reactions. So in some markets, the people are more warm and they try to convince the bots to, you know, treat them nice and put them at the top of the list. Then there's more flowery language. Dave: Yeah. I'll never forget. The first time we had, you know, Wendy the chat bot personality that is doing the interviewing basically, “she's the recruiter”. And, we had somebody go through an interview and at the end, you know, we have a little wave emoji and Wendy says, you know like, thank you so much the hiring, you know, the human hiring team will get back to you. Something like that, something from the early days, whatever it said. And people were responding, Thanks, Wendy. Hope you have a great day! And people know Wendy is a robot. We had like robot jokes in some of the early chats, like people knew. But you know, there's that notion of, well if I'm going to chat with it, I'm going to treat it like a, you know, like it's a thing, like I'm going to call it by its name. It's Wendy!Max: We got the same thing. I mean, it got to the point of like, Oh I really hope that you're going to get back to me sooner because I really need this job because blah, blah, blah my daughter needs a surgery something like this.Dave: Oh my goodness. Yeah...Max: At the end of the application process. Which, you know, I mean it makes my heart bleed, of course, but the bot doesn't have a heart! Dave: Sorry. There's nothing in our evaluation algorithm about, you know…Max: Additional circumstances. Dave: Yeah.Max: All right. Well, let's switch gears a little bit, and maybe it sounds like we should have a separate podcast where we put our bot people with your bot people and sharp out stories. That would be fun. It would be for a different kind of audience, my audience are mostly TA professionals, and  they could get a little bit bored. So, one thing that... We kind of started at the same time, right? So when did you launch a Wade and Wendy? Dave:  Wade and Wendy started in, you know, like on the couch, like a dollar and a dream idea in 2015. And we've been building ever since. Max: Yeah. So around the same time, I may be a few months older, but we only did our first text bot in 2016. After our initial run was doing IVR voice collection over the phone. Dave: Awesome. Max: And sometimes people ask me, are you still a startup? And I don't know what to tell them because, yeah, the company is more mature five years in, but people want to work in a startup because it's cool and exciting. How do we keep it cool and exciting by, you know five years in, when we have not yet totally taken over the world? Certainly our numbers are very high and, you know, we have purpose around that, but yeah, what are your thoughts on how to keep it fresh? And I'm also curious, you know, to extend a little bit the conversation, on the retention number, which is too high. Dave: Oh, interesting. Max: Because I think like the company from 5 years ago did not need the same people as it does now.Dave: Yep. So that's... What a question! I'll work backwards. I'll enter that first because I think that will help inform sort of, how do you keep it fresh? You know, I think. I completely agree with your point, which is that, you know, at every stage of a company you need different types of personality.The reality on the ground was really different. When we were tackling an incredibly difficult idea in an immature tech space and market, you know, in 2015, 2016, really up until probably like early 2019. It was when we would talk to prospective clients, we had to explain what a chatbot was, what AI was, why HR was going to benefit from AI and what that even meant. When it came to the problems that we were solving and  just the ability to manage a chat conversation and what that took. And understanding from a design and conversation perspective, through the hard tech of, you know, how do you build for the future with this? It was so much open field, just an empty meadow with grass in every direction. And we had to walk forward. Right? And that is not for everybody, that level of uncertainty of rapid rate of change, of you know, chaos to a degree because I'll never forget when we went live with the first customer, because you know I'd been on a zero to one startup journey before, so I had a distinct memory then of what happened and how disruptive and special having a client like was to, you know, an organization that was, you know, under the hood, trying to solve these deep tech problems.Certainly we had user testing all the time, but it's so different when you're actually live. So you know, the person that is engaged and excited, with that chaos, and certainly we do have a chunk of our core team that has been with us from those early days, you know, when you get to a level of, okay this is a thing, and there's still so much green grass and there's still so much to do, but there is a clear pathway and the people that we have now, you know, there are people that I think if they had joined the organization four or five years ago, it would have been miserable. You know, being the fifth person on a team, trying to solve this as a really different lived experience than, you know, being an employee 12 or 15 or 20 or whatever it is. And that changes as you go.Max: Some people would be addicted to startup after startup after startup. And you see those resumes where people spend 6 to 12 months and, you know, you're thinking, okay either this person has serious ADD and is not reliable or perhaps, that's just the way gear. They just have to go at the earliest stage and just keep doing that over and over again. Dave: I call it. I have this notion, that we talk about a lot, which is startup time. And the earlier you are at a startup, both in terms of company size and like development life cycle, if it's a tech startup. Those early days, every month, you should count as six months!So, you know, six months at an early stage startup, when it's five people, feels like three years of sort of life experience. And as the company grows, as things become more predictable, that starts to flatten out. We're like, okay, five years at, you know, a late stage tech company is five years. But if you're part of that first year, there's so much emotion and complexity and raw hours that go into those early days that it's almost as if you're operating on a different calendar.And certainly there are people, you know, that were on our journey for six months, you know, we have a couple of those, especially some junior folks that were interns and things like that. And you know, to this day we have relationships as if we've worked together for a decade, just because those six months really forged that time. And it was a really wonderful kind of moment for all of us. Max: So, your alumni, your best alumni, they stay in the startup world for the most part? They moved on to their own thing? Dave: It depends. And we've watched people go to a giant company and then realize like, you've been at it for long enough where a couple of people now in the second thing afterwards, worked for, you know, a fortune 50 company for a couple of years, and we're like, no I missed that! So most went on to start ups, in some capacity, but a handful went to the big places where everybody else is.Max: Yeah it paid the bill!Dave: Yeah, what motivates you is different for everybody. And if it's an awesome paycheck, which you can really get at a giant company, then, you know, by all means go after it. Max: I think so, right? I was saying conversational designers will find jobs and you can go work for Microsoft anytime, and probably get something there. Well, other tips, that I can appropriate, on how to keep the excitement strong? Especially in these troubled times where we cannot see each other in person? Dave: So this is the advice that I got.  Hopefully you can use it. Both you Max and you felt listener at home, or wherever you're listening to this. You know, when one of the things that... The entire employee life cycle is tied together. Right? So from the first time you hear about a company that you might work for in the recruiting process to, you know, 20 years down the line, when you're an AVP and just continuing to kind of move up the ranks, whatever it might be.But the best organizations that I've seen, really do illuminate their entire process with that organization's mission. Right? And, you know, I think about, you know, companies where I've gotten to see this up close are organizations like, you know... And I'm not... Some of these are clients, some of these are just companies where I've gotten the chance to talk to leaders and hear what they have to say. But I think about companies like PepsiCo or Comcast that have a real kind of message infused in what being an employee there means. And what the goals of that organization mean to kind of the broader world. Max:  wait a minute! PepsiCo, is the mission to sell more sugar? Dave: So it's, it's fascinating. PepsiCo has a wide range, and I have no affiliation with PepsiCo. So, I've just heard people at PepsiCo speak about their culture. So PepsiCo's internal mission is really oriented around diversity and personal development. So yes, they are selling corn chips and sugary drinks, and, a whole bunch of other things, which is, you know these are the complexities in the modern world, but internally in terms of their company's culture and what they do. They are deeply engaged with bringing their workforce into the community with service projects. They are one of the most diverse, leadership organizations. The fact that I even know this stuff just tells you see how, and again, I have no connection to PepsiCo whatsoever.The way they communicate that brand, the way it filters out throughout the organization keeps people, you know, not just engaged and motivated in a kind of transactional way, but in a deep way, people are committed to the development of the organization. Now selling sugary drinks isn't necessarily what drives me every day, you know, but for us, we're lucky and I'm sure you feel the same way. We're oriented towards this really powerful problem. Right? Every day I get to come to work and I get to work on. Chipping away at the massive unemployment crisis that is affecting, you know, hundreds of millions of people across the globe.I get to work on issues of representation and diversity by trying to remove bias in the hiring process. I mean, if your work, if you're a recruiter, if you're a TA person and you're thinking about your team. Your team is on the front lines of some of the most important decision making that human beings make. where do they choose to work. Where they choose to spend their time. Max: It affects society.Dave: It's such an important thing. And, you know we do a lot to remember that. And to talk about that, we have an internal mantra, that we call 60 to 6, which is, today the average job search in America, and it's different the world over, but the majority of our team is based in the US. So this is the number we use.The average job search takes 60 days. So when you're looking for work, whether you're unemployed or you've decided it's time for a change, the average job search takes 60 days. We want to create a world where it takes 6. We want to make hiring 10 times faster, where you're not spending all your time searching and trying to eliminate the right and wrong job. We want the right job to come to you, and you are able to just opt in. For the recruiter, they don't have to spend all this time searching for candidates and putting people to the process. You just get the right candidate, you know they're the right candidate because you have all this data to suggest that it's the right candidate, and how it maps on to their future work at your organization. This notion of 60 to 6 and removing, you know, 54 days of not knowing how you're going to pay your bills, not knowing what you're going to be doing with yourself, just going crazy, sitting by yourself, like that is so powerful and illuminating. And, you know, I think that really helps keep things fresh. And for a startup, this is a little more specific to startup context, you keep hitting milestones along the way, right? You're never done. It's never like, okay, this is over. It's like we got this contract, or we're able to release this functionality, or this thing that we've been talking about for five years, since this was an idea on the couch, is now about to go live because of the work of dozens of people across the globe.That is so cool. and when you get to celebrate those kinds of victories, you know, it's just a reminder of why you get up and do all the unglamorous things that being at a startup requires. Cause it's not, I'm probably making it sound all, you know, sunshine and lollipops, but you know, it's a lot. And there's a lot of work that a big team in money can solve that you have to be scrappy and you have to find your clever way around it. And just one at a time. Max: Yeah. I think we're lucky or maybe not lucky. We picked the industry we chose to go after. And that was one of the reasons I would personally not be motivated to sell sugary drinks. But, you know, I'm gonna use what you said about PepsiCo and go chase some sponsorship money from Mountain Dew for this podcast. Dave: Yeah. A really extreme podcast!Max: Yeah. Great. Well, we could go on all day on these topics, and maybe we'll talk again, and maybe we'll have our bot people have a separate chat, but it was a real pleasure, a real treat having you on the show. Dave, thank you so much for sharing and, all the best  to you and your 60 to 6 mission! I'll see if I can tweak it and personalize it for my team.Dave: I would love that. Look, this is a, you know, one of the things that we talk a lot about, is that this is a community, right? And, you know, if you're solving these problems, these problems are bigger than any group, any company, things like that. And it's always exciting to talk to other people who care about these issues.So thank you so much for having me. I am excited to get to talk with you about this in this setting. And yeah, hopefully people are ready to chat with a bot about work now.Max:  All right. Awesome. Thanks Dave. Dave: Thanks Max. Max: I had such a great time interviewing Dave Mekelburg Chief of staff.Head of people at a Wade and Wendy. It's often an experience running a startup, which is very competitive, where  you're trying to grab the headlines and grab market share from your competition. And it's so refreshing and so nice to meet the competition. And remember that you are working on problems that are much bigger than your own. And much bigger than your own company. And then we had so much to learn from each other. So thanks Dave for participating. I hope you enjoyed our conversation, and I hope it didn't get too geeky for you, that you'll sign up for more on the recruitment hackers podcast.

Today, Dave “It’s-not-delivery-it’s-Dave'' VanVickle and I talk about how we can bring people to the faith with beauty, from classic Christian films, to Lord of the Rings, to marriage prep. Snippet From the Show Beauty pulls us up out of ourselves, up into the realm of the transcendental. Eventually you will see what truly makes us beautiful, and that is God who is wild beauty. Throw yourself into excellence. We want to hear from you! Email us at eksb@ascensionpress.com with your questions/comments and don't forget to text “EKSB” to 33-777 to get the shownotes right to your inbox! You can also find the full shownotes at www.ascensionpress.com/EveryKneeShallBow

Dave Nobs is the Managing Director and Chief Growth Officer at Lavidge, a highly awarded, employee-owned, full-service advertising agency with ever broadening horizons. Lavidge started in traditional advertising in 1982, then added public relations in the 90s, digital marketing in the 2000s, and multicultural marketing about 5 years ago. A couple years later, the agency broke down the walls between what had been its divisional siloes. Subject matter experts now look at the totality of a client's issues holistically. Dave notes that the agency's work focuses on projects that meet client-specific and industry-specific benchmarks, most commonly tracked through brand awareness and sales. He explains that his agency strives to make a difference for clients, employees, and the community. Lavidge added multicultural marketing to address cross-cultural messaging needs in a state with a strong Hispanic presence . . . but multicultural marketing is not just about language differences. Dave says marketers serving a specific cultural market need to be aware of the different, and almost intangible. “tones,” strategies, and tactics needed for a client to gain credibility within that community. “Truth, inspiration, and action” drive the agency's projects:  Truth “happens” when the agency and a client collaborate to research issues, develop strategy, evaluate data and analytics, and go through the give-and-take-process of participating in focus groups, interviews, consumer intercepts, and experiential observation – and synthesize all that market and client information to understand what the client is “about,” and what the client “needs.” In the inspiration phase, the agency and the client work “hand-in-hand” on the marketing story, the design and art direction, and the feel of the narrative.  The action part includes media and channel placement and assessing responses and brand impression dynamics – getting the message to the masses and hearing their reply.  As Chief Growth Officer, Dave generates new business, grows existing client business, attends to agency marketing issues, and develops strategic client innovations. In this interview, he lists assets that he attributes to Lavidge's success:  An attitude of positivity  Daily communication with clients large and small The agency's focus on the client . . . and on using “every experience, tool, trend, skill and insight at our disposal to create immediate and lasting connections between brands and human beings.” Over the years, Lavidge has evolved to concentrate on a number of core verticals: healthcare, education, retail services, homebuilders, and sports. Dave discussed re-reading a Harvard Business Review article on how to market in a recession. The article's author asserted that tough economic times were “not the time to cut advertising.” Historically, brands increasing advertising during a downturn, while their competitors cut back, “can significantly improve market share and return on investment.” Dave reminds us that “It's also important to be aware of tonality . . . to be authentic . . . to be helpful” and highlighted several companies that are taking action to do just that. Dave is available on his company's website at: https://www.lavidge.com/. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Dave Nobs, the Managing Director at Lavidge based in Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome to the podcast, Dave. DAVE: Thank you, Rob. It's a pleasure to be here. ROB: Fantastic to have you here, Dave. Why don't you explain to us where Lavidge really excels and what you're known for? DAVE: Sure. We are a full-service advertising, digital, public relations, and multicultural agency here in Phoenix. We've been in business since '82. We were founded in the '80s as an advertising agency, added PR in the '90s, digital in the 2000s, and then multicultural marketing about 5 years ago. We are one of the largest agencies in Arizona, and certainly one of a handful of full-service agencies, meaning all of our services are in-house under one roof. ROB: Perfect. You've been around for the addition of that multicultural line of business; what were some of the things you saw in the market that pulled you in that direction and caused you to commit to that line of business? DAVE: We're always looking at innovative client solutions, and multicultural marketing, particularly Hispanic marketing here in the Southwest, is particularly important to our clients. We started with McDonald's, which was a big client of ours, and then we added multicultural marketing to a number of our other clients, particularly in healthcare, like Banner Health, Blue Cross Blue Shield, and others just because it was a need that they have. Multicultural marketing is very different than general market in tone and some strategies and tactics specifically geared to accomplish results in that area. ROB: How in particular? What are some of the ways you would say in detail that things need to be different when you're speaking to that sort of audience? DAVE: I think different strategies and tactics resonate with the Hispanic market better than others. Obviously, digital is very important. Events, immersive/experiential marketing sometimes is more important than others. But really, for us, it's more a client solution than it is anything else, particularly for our clients that has that audience, and that's important for them. ROB: I would imagine a part of that is really almost subjective in the eyes of the person being marketed to. It's this overall sense I think we all have when someone knows and understands us versus where someone's intruding into our world but doesn't really belong at the party. Is there an intangible dimension to it, do you think? DAVE: I think that's accurate. ROB: Perfect. Tell us a little bit about how the agency started, if you can get into some of that, and then how you came into the picture as well. DAVE: Sure. As I mentioned, we were founded in '82. We have a staff of just over 70 people. We have $70 million in capitalized billings, and we're employee-owned. I believe we're the only agency in Arizona that's employee-owned. We're proud of the fact that we've been voted Best Place to Work eight times and the Top Agency in Arizona six times, Best Place to Work for Women, and just recently – this month, as a matter of fact – we were named AZ Big Media's No. 1 Advertising Agency for the ninth year in a row. We're very proud of that. For us, it's really about solving client problems with strategic thinking and sharp creative views that go well beyond producing ads. Our agency mantra is “be creative, work smart, and have fun.” We live and breathe that every day. ROB: With an agency that's been there for a while, and you said it's also employee-owned, how do you think about leadership transitions within that environment? Because 33 years, you didn't start the thing but you're running a lot of the show there now, and someone will supersede you. How does that work in that sort of environment? DAVE: Good question. My role is that of a Chief Growth Officer, so my focus is generating new business, growing existing client business, agency marketing, strategic client innovations. I've been here 10 years, and I'm part of a management team of eight people. If you can believe it, I'm the newbie. The rest of the management team members have been with Lavidge for more than 10 years. The industry has changed so much. It certainly has become more project focused. What we need to do, and what we're focused on, is really – our purpose is to make a difference for our clients, our employees, and in the community. Our beliefs are really around truth, inspiration, action. What I mean by that is for our clients – and we're very collaborative; we like to involve the client at every step of the process, from the outset of the campaign to the strategies and tactics to the implementation and to measuring the results. So when I mention our purpose, making a difference, we're looking for truth. You hear a lot in our industry about finding insights, but the truth for us is really strategy, research, the conversation with our clients, including the hard conversations, looking at the data, analytics, focus groups, interviews, consumer intercepts, the experience. All that we put into place to gather these insights. The next step for us is really the inspiration, which is the motivation, the motion, the design, the art direction, the experience, the usability, the feel – to tell those stories, because for us, like most agencies, it's all about storytelling. Then it's the action, getting the results that our clients need. That's looking at media, looking at the channels, looking at loyalty, all of the brand impressions, clicks, visits, awareness, decision, movement, all generating the results our clients are looking for. ROB: It sounds like quite a range of things to think about. I appreciate what you're saying about the insights and having some of those hard conversations around the insights. In some ways, coming into digital, even coming into PR before that, in some ways the numbers that you can present to a client have changed, but the bottom line of business in terms of doing well for your clients, doing well for the business, doing well for your employees – those haven't changed. What are some of the key numbers you see that are really relevant to clients today, that help them understand and help them come to grips with maybe a hard conversation? DAVE: That's a good question. Most of our clients – and this is historically true for the industry as well – are looking at two things at the end of the day, usually: brand awareness and sales. The trick is to develop programs that are specifically geared toward our clients' benchmarks. They're different by industry and they're different for each client. I think it's particularly important these days to develop tailor-made solutions because each client is different, each challenge is different. Oftentimes, there are different projects for some of our bigger clients, and they all have different metrics. ROB: Yeah, especially when the clients are significantly larger. It can make a difference. When it comes to Lavidge, is there any particular sweet spot for you in terms of industries and client size that you maybe see a cluster of clients around that helps develop some particular excellence in that area? DAVE: Some of our core vertical experience – healthcare, certainly we have a number of healthcare clients such as Blue Cross Blue Shield, Delta Dental, SimonMed, Sonora Quest, Banner. So healthcare is certainly a specialty of ours. Another one is education. Arizona State University is one of our larger clients. It's interesting – I say Arizona State University; it's really 12 or 14 different clients because we work with their enterprise marketing hub and all the different schools and divisions, such as Barrett Honors College, Thunderbird, Cronkite, the Alumni Council, the athletics department. It's a number of different clients under that one banner. So healthcare, education. Retail services is another core area of expertise for us. We do a lot of franchise marketing in the retail space. We worked with Massage Envy for years and years and years in virtually every year of marketing and communications. Re-Bath is another significant retail service client of ours. If I had to mention three, those would be it. Healthcare, education, retail services. We also do a lot with homebuilders. We've done a lot in the sports area as well. We're a full-service general market agency, but those are some of our core areas of expertise. ROB: Very interesting. It makes sense. Some of those are very familiar, although even with the educational focus, in some ways it maybe looks more like enterprise than ever before, because what you're describing to me sounds almost – you mentioned their marketing hub – it sounds like a center of excellence that any enterprise brand might have. Do you think they have had some inspiration from that world, or some learnings from the center of excellence approach? Or maybe even the enterprises learned from them. DAVE: Yeah, I believe so. For ASU, it's really all about innovation. They're proud to be named the most innovative university. Obviously Michael Crow, their president, deserves a great deal of the credit for that. But ASU, for us, that's a great example of our collaborative approach. We really do work hand-in-hand with them. It can get messy at times, and we like that because we think involving them, again, early in the process and working with them – daily communications, weekly status calls, monthly reporting – that helps generate best results as possible on their behalf. ROB: It's really interesting because you jammed through that cadence of the daily, weekly, monthly. A lot of times when we talk to even very successful agencies, especially because I think maybe people come from a creative place, they don't mention that sort of process. How do you, with I think you said around 70 some employees, think about establishing that as a standard? How do you communicate those standards of cadence and make sure they're listened to and followed throughout the organization? Because they come from a place of wisdom. DAVE: Right, and that's really our commitment to our clients because things change so often. Daily communication is vital – not only for our big accounts, but also for some of our smaller accounts. We have, like a lot of agencies, larger agency of record relationships, and then we also have standalone public relations clients or website clients or creative services clients. It's important, no matter how big or small they are, to communicate daily. Again, that's part of our commitment. Then the weekly calls keep everybody on track – not only us, but also our clients. Particularly helpful for the larger clients. One of the things that we like to do is have one point of contact for our clients so they're not making four different calls. They're calling one person who can marshal the internal resources that are needed. One of the things we did that I think is interesting, a couple years ago – we used to have a standalone advertising division, a standalone interactive division, a public relations division, a multicultural division. We broke down those walls and those silos a couple years ago and implemented a more unified approach. It's not about whether they're an advertising client or a PR client; it's much more about what that client needs. Does it need strategy? Does it need creative? Is it a user experience website/responsive design approach that's needed? Is it content? Is it social? Is it search? It could be a number of things, and it's really about answering clients' needs and offering one-stop client solutions on their behalf. ROB: When you made that transition, did they have an account manager in each of those divisions before and you were able to streamline that to one trusted point of contact? How did that realign when you made that switch? DAVE: It was actually fairly seamless. We had, obviously, experts in each one of those areas, and we had a head of advertising and a chief creative officer and the head of our interactive division. Breaking down those silos – we still have subject matter experts, but it's about bringing them to bear on our clients' behalf rather than looking at it division by division, if that makes sense. ROB: For sure. DAVE: The reason for that is we found that it's like – what's the old saying? Trying to force a square peg into a round hole. We were slotting different clients into different divisions, and that's not always the case. They could be primarily a public relations client, but they're going to need a website or they're going to need a special event or they're going to need print or digital magazine execution, video. It's really about being more client-service-focused than anything else. ROB: Dave, what are some things you've learned as a marketing agency leader that you might do differently if you were starting again 10 years ago, or even further back in your career? DAVE: That's a very good question, Rob. I think the one thing that I would've done differently is I would have taken one of the client side opportunities that came my way over the years, because I've been in the agency business – all my career has been spent on the agency side of the business. Talk about a glutton for punishment. [laughs] But I probably would have taken one of the client side opportunities that came my way. I think I would've liked to have that experience, sitting in the client's chair and having the final say and making decisions on which campaigns run and why. In fact, one of those opportunities was in your neighborhood, with Turner Broadcasting System, interestingly enough. ROB: Oh, interesting. It's very common, I think, for people to bounce from brand side to agency side, sometimes drifting over to the vendor side. I think there is value in that empathy. I'm sure you have had plenty of people on your team that have had that experience, right? DAVE: Yeah. I think it's useful. I also teach a sports marketing class at ASU at the Cronkite School, and that question comes up a lot with students, because of course, they're thinking primarily, in sports marketing, “I want to work for a league or a team,” and they don't really understand all the other avenues of career development, whether it be in an agency like ours or a corporate sponsor or some of the other suppliers that are involved in sports marketing. But I do always recommend having both experiences, and again, I would have probably done that differently, to answer your question. ROB: You can also see quite often how many agencies, some of their longest running clients come from the relationship you're talking about. You have a relationship with the university, and the university is also a client. It's not a quid pro quo, but it's a relationship business. Someone who spends 5 years inside Coca-Cola, 5 years inside Home Depot, 5 years inside Blue Cross is going to have some very longstanding relationships to pull on. Not to say that you don't have those from being a trusted agency partner for people; it's just in some cases, it's different because you may have a former agency you can't pull that client from the same way you can if you left the brand and you're on the agency side. DAVE: That's a good point. I remember when I was general manager of Rogers & Cowan in Los Angeles, which is the big entertainment publicity firm, we had a number of different divisions, like television, film, music, product placement, consumer, etc. It was interesting; I always talked to the CEO about how there were really, really expert people, but they were what we call an inch wide and a mile deep, meaning they knew everything in the world about music, but it was hard to transfer those skills to say consumer marketing or corporate communications. I think this is true of clients as well. They get so deep into their area of expertise. I think it's the role of the agency to really bring best practices and other solutions, perhaps from other industries, to the table to get them to thinking beyond just what works in a specific market. ROB: One thing I imagine that's probably relatively new for Lavidge, and you're learning a little bit, but maybe you also have some lessons to learn, is this thing that many of us are doing perhaps not by choice right now, which is working in distributed teams, working remotely. You can't even get in a room if you want to, or at least you probably shouldn't amidst this coronavirus/COVID-19 crisis. What are some things you're learning, especially since you mentioned these cadences that you had? Are you learning some different habits that are helpful for teams that are at a distance now? DAVE: That's a great question, particularly given the challenging times that are upon us. I think one overriding principle is to be determined in what you do and not be fearful. Despite the current circumstance, there are opportunities. I'm very proud of our agency, as an example, because we quickly, a couple weeks ago, switched over to working remotely. It's been seamless. We just had an all staff meeting on Wednesday that we did remotely, and it worked remarkably well. We're doing that for our client teams. So there are some opportunities. I think in general, one of the things that I'm seeing is that brands can use this opportunity to step up and take action. There seems to be a common thread around brand purpose. You hear a lot of words like “authentic,” “useful,” “helpful,” “purposeful,” but I think it's really about leveraging brand power for good. ROB: It's a good reminder. You mentioned “helpful,” and I think if we all take a step back as marketers and as people who are communicating into the lives of other people, we probably realize – we should always be helpful, but I think it can get a little bit hard to remember that sometimes. When people are just out there spending money, everything's fine, people are looking to buy stuff, I think we can lose some of that helpfulness and get a little bit flashier. I think we maybe realize right now, this is not the time to ask for stuff from people, but it's time to be helpful to them. DAVE: Yeah, no question. Just the other day I was rereading the Harvard Business Review, an article about how to market in a recession, and maintaining marketing spending is important. It's not the time to cut advertising. It's well documented that brands that increase advertising during a recession or a situation like this when their competitors are cutting back can significantly improve market share and return on investment. But your point is well taken. It's also important to remember tonality. It's important to be authentic. It's important to be helpful. You think about some of the recent examples, like Ford and Tesla are using their factories to make ventilators, or Anheuser-Busch are using their distilleries to make hand sanitizer. Just a couple of examples of being authentic, being useful, being helpful. ROB: For sure. In some cases, with Budweiser, with Anheuser-Busch, I'd imagine that's even coming to them a little bit at the expense of their actual business. Ford may not be needing to make as many trucks, but if my social feeds are anything to be believed, Anheuser-Busch and their competitors are doing pretty well right now. A lot of people seem to be buying their product and talking about it. [laughs] DAVE: That's right. That's very true. But again, I think it's really about their brand purpose. I imagine they are doing very well, but it's also about being helpful and being purposeful in what they're doing to consumers at large. ROB: Perfect. Dave, when you're looking ahead – you mentioned in this time, you see opportunity. This is a time to seize opportunity. This is certainly not a time to be shy right now. We all feel probably some moments when we want to just chill out and check our brains out, but when we're done with that, what are some things that are coming up for Lavidge that you're excited about? DAVE: I think we're very excited about a number of areas. In this particular situation, the coronavirus/COVID-19, crisis communication is obviously important. We're staying very busy in that area, public relations experts. Two other areas that we're looking at are certainly ecommerce, given the remote learning and the remote situations that both we and our clients are facing, and then cause marketing – again, really talking about what you and I were just discussing: brand purpose, connecting a brand purpose with their business goals and making sure they stand for something that their consumers care about. So those are three areas that we're looking at. Before this came upon us, we were also looking at a number of other areas. One was the rise of experiential marketing as a strategy to engage consumers, using branded experiences, live marketing, event marketing. The whole idea is creating a memorable impact on the consumer. Obviously, two other areas that our digital team has really focused on is increased artificial intelligence, in-depth information about what consumers want and how that can be personalized and how that can personalize the buying experience based on someone's preferences. And then one of the areas that I'm really interested in personally is the whole brand solving business challenges by engaging young consumers through their passion for e-sports, gaming, as an example. Those are the areas we're looking at. ROB: It's really fascinating because a lot of times a 30-some-year-old agency would be very steeped in things they've done, but it sounds like, especially with that leadership team that you have around you, this company has been through multiple downturns and has grown and is still one of the largest in Arizona. I can hear in your description of the things you were thinking about, the things you're thinking about now, it's intentional but it's not opportunistic. It is tied to things you've been dong, but it's not overly tied to the plan that you had, and you're still trying to push really hard to find some way to do branded experiences. There may be something that emerges from that, but you're not going to do a big brand activation in a physical place right now. DAVE: Correct. I do think, to your point, it's important to be flexible. I think that's one of the reasons we've been extremely successful for almost 40 years. We do have a number of client innovations that we've developed for our clients, whether it's introducing new services such as account-based marketing or programmatic digital media, but it's also about improving traditional marketing methods. Innovation is not just about coming up with new solutions, but it's also about improving marketing and advertising, digital, public relations, social, website design and development, etc. So I think innovation comes in two areas: both coming up with new solutions as well as improving solutions that you've employed for clients in the past. ROB: Excellent. Dave, when people want to find you and they want to find Lavidge, where should they look? DAVE: We are in the Biltmore area of Phoenix, which is right on Camelback very close to the Biltmore Hotel, if you know where that's at. Certainly centrally located. Again, we're a full service agency, and I think that's important. Not that we don't have standalone clients, but usually we like to think of ourselves as a one-stop client solution. Those services include strategy. We do a lot of branding work, a lot of corporate communications work. That includes market research and customer segmentation. And then we have our creative services, so that's TV, radio, print, digital advertising. We have our own in-house video production capability, so it's not just TV ads. We're doing a number of videos, whether it's corporate videos, product videos, training videos, only videos. Then our digital expertise is really in two areas. One side of it is the website design/development, microsites, landing pages, mobile apps. The other side of that is all forms of digital marketing – search, both paid and organic, email marketing, lead gen, lead nurturing, ecommerce that I mentioned before. We even do custom loyalty programs for some of our clients. That's helped by the fact that we have our own in-house analytics department as well. Then in the public relations area, it's both traditional corporate communications and product publicity, but also content. As a number of agencies do, we're doing more and more content creation/content management, whether that be videos, blogs, infographics, whitepapers, etc., and mapping that out to make sure it syncs with traditional public relations. It's nice to have all those client solutions, if you will, under one roof and available to our clients. Now, some of our clients are using all those services; some are using the services that are most needed for them. ROB: Got it. That's excellent, Dave. It looks like they should also probably, if they're looking for you online, go to lavidge.com. Is that right? DAVE: That's correct. Lavidge.com. You'll see on our website a lot of the information that I just talked through. You had asked about some of our core areas of expertise, and in three of those areas – there's more, but certainly using healthcare as an example, we did our own marketing report. We literally conducted research to determine which messages are most resonating with consumers, which marketing tactics are more successful than others. So we did a whole research study, which is available on our website. Additionally, that's reinforced by a number of whitepapers that were written by our subject matter experts, whether it be digital, creative, strategy, to really walk through and bring to life some of those findings. All of that is available on the website, Lavidge.com. ROB: Perfect. Thank you so much, Dave. It's been great to have you on the podcast, and I'm grateful for all you shared about the journey of Lavidge and how sustained that business has been in a really admirable way. DAVE: It's my pleasure, Rob. Thank you very much for the time. I enjoyed it. ROB: Take care. Thank you. DAVE: Thank you. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

The PWR Spot Show is back on the air with a full house & a special guest! John and Richard welcome Jonathan back in the cohost spot while Ray Garner joins in the discussion. Their special guest is none other than Dave “It's still real to me, dammit” Wills who is also known as the crying wrestling fan from years back. Dave & Jonathan were able to go to the first tapings for NWA's new studio show available on YouTube awesomely named Powerrr. The guys have a great discussion about this throwback wrestling show that should be seen by wrestling fans both old and new! If you like the podcast, spread the word on social media & tell your friends about the show and to check us out on Podbean and iTunes!

What Have You Changed Your Mind About? With Carol Lethaby, Dave Weller, Karin Xie, Matt Courtois, Paul Nation Simon Galloway - TranscriptTracy Yu: Hi, everyone.Ross Thorburn: Welcome to the podcast. This, as you probably noticed, is our third‑anniversary episode. To celebrate, we're doing a special long podcast, the longest one we've ever done. We've got six special guests for you, and all of them are going to answer the same question. That question is, "What have you changed your mind about?"Tracy: First, we've got Dave Weller and Simon Galloway. Dave currently works as an online diploma and TESOL tutor and blogs at barefootteflteacher.com. Simon runs his distance learning courses for teachers and managers. Both of them have been on our podcast multiple times before.Ross: The second up is Paul Nation, emeritus professor in the School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. Paul's one of the most influential writers and researchers in vocabulary acquisition in the world. You'll have heard him before in our second‑anniversary episode about reading last year.Tracy: The third is Matt Courtois, who currently works as an academic director in a young learner language school, and Karin Xie, who works as an academic manager at Trinity College London in China. You might remember Karin from our previous episode about applying learning, and Matt from episodes about observations, minimalism, and also teaching writing.Ross: In the fourth segment, we'll hear from Carol Lethaby, who's a teacher, a teacher trainer, and materials writer based in the US and Mexico. You might remember Carol from our episode about neuroscience. You can learn more from her on her website, www.clethaby.com.Tracy: Finally, Ross and myself will talk about what we have changed our minds about over the years.Ross: Great. Enjoy the podcast, the longest one ever.David Weller & Simon GallowayRoss: Dave Weller, Simon Galloway, you've both been involved in English education for what, 12, 15 years?Dave Weller: It's 15 years for me.Simon Galloway: Same, pretty much.Ross: What have you changed your mind about? There must be one thing, Dave.[laughter]Dave: You're talking about since the beginning of my teaching?Ross: It could be at any point at all.Dave: The biggest thing I've changed my mind about since I began ‑‑ for myself, and for students, trainees, and everything ‑‑ is I used to think in quite a fixed mindset. I used to think, "Well, some teachers are good, some teachers aren't. And some students are smart and some students are not."The more I do this the more I realize what it's really about. Attitude and effort are going to be the things that make the difference. It's a bit of a cliché because I know everyone starts to think that way these days. Is it a bit of a...Ross: I don't know. I think that's still true to an extent, isn't it? I'm not sure. I ultimately do think in those terms that, for trainees for example. You find some at the beginning of the course, and you probably think these guys are the stars, the A‑People, the B‑People, and the C‑People.I almost think that fixed mindset, growth mindset is one of those things that I know as a fact but I'm not sure the extent to which I'd genuinely apply it or really believe in it deep down. Have you seen courses where people who you thought they were the weakest people at the beginning, ended up becoming the strongest at the end?Dave: I don't think the courses long enough for that, but there are definitely teachers that start at about that level and end about that level because they're not really trying to grow. There are other people that actually use the effort.I can see that through my distance learning courses, too. There are some people that start with a pretty bad first assignment and by the end, they're way up here. There are other people that just...Ross: I think of people on diplomas that we run. We, for example, observe them at the beginning before they got on the course. Some people that we thought, "They're not good enough to get on the course." There was a big kerfuffle. Eventually, they got on the course and they did really well.I've also seen the opposite of people that we said, "Yep you'll have no problems on this course," and the people go on to fail.Dave: Yeah, and I wonder if actually what we're saying to them is even affecting that. If we tell them, "You're going to do great," then that actually fosters a fixed mindset in them.Simon: It goes back to what we were saying earlier about praising the effort. If you tell someone, "You'll have no problem in this course" you, in a way, set them up to fail. Maybe they won't put the effort in as much because they think they're intrinsically or naturally intelligent enough or they're already at that skill level ‑‑ they won't need to put as much effort ‑‑ and they struggle.Dave: It certainly happens with some people.Ross: It's almost like there's an unspoken assumption that these people are going to put in X amount of effort. That's the bit that doesn't get said. "You'll be fine. You're going to do really well in this course."Dave: Assuming that you spend 10 hours a week?Ross: Yeah, but a lot of people don't know. Dave, let me guess. You didn't used to believe in learning styles but now you do?[laughter]Dave: No, actually. I think that when I was a new teacher, perhaps one year or two years in, I was always so certain of everything. On my original course, I took everything as gospel. I held my opinions so strongly, and I was so sure about everything. I knew I had a lot to learn, but what I did already know, I was certain that this is just the way things are.Since then, I've changed my mind and been exposed to new ideas, new evidence. I've changed everything so many times over the years. I can't remember who said it, it was something like, "You have strong ideas, held lightly," something like that. The longer I'm in this industry, the more I fully agree with that.I fully believe in what I do and how I do it, but if you show me some evidence or a compelling study, or show me a different way of doing things, I'll willingly change and try something new. That willingness to change, I guess that's [inaudible 06:13] . My willingness to change and to be shown to be wrong, I actually welcome now.Ross: That sounds like a perfect description of the Dunning‑Kruger effect. After your cert course, you believed a hundred percent in everything, like it was the gospel. The more you learned, the less confident you've become in those things.Do you think there's a problem then in how we present information to trainees on cert courses? I always find that maybe it's at diploma level that we maybe encourage people to think critically about the things that are being shown to them. The emphasis on introductory courses is, "Here's what you need to just be OK in the classroom and survive your first year."Maybe we're giving people false confidence. Maybe the more effective learner autonomy, long‑term strategy to teach people is, "I'm going to show you these things, these principles, but you also need to be able to question them."Simon: That goes back to something I've said before. You can take it to the wider education industry as a whole. In the language class, should we even be teaching language? Should we just be teaching skills and applying motivation? If you give someone the motivation to learn and the skills to be able to do so independently, then they're inevitably going to be able to learn a language.It's the same with any course, almost. I think the days of the tutor being gatekeeper to information are long gone with the advent of the Internet. Sure, a curated course is much easier to work through step‑by‑step because you can trust the authority of the source. It's broken down and spoon‑fed to you in a certain way.I do think that, in most courses that we run, there is that lack of teaching meta‑skills at the beginning or teaching to think critically. I think every course assumes that a course before has done that, even going back to initial education from 5 to 18. It's something, I think, missing in that, but that's a much larger issue.Dave: Yeah, we assume that everyone's got a degree or whatever, so they must know this. Then the university course, "They must have learned it before."[laughter]Dave: At secondary school, "They must have learned this at primary school."Simon: They thought, "Oh, parents must have...Dave: "The parents must have taught them that."[laughter]Simon: It might make a flip‑side argument. We're saying this from a position of 10, 15 years in the industry. As a new teacher, I can still vividly remember going, "Just tell me what to do next. I just want to get through my next lesson. I want to survive."I think it is a responsibility for initial teacher training courses to be able to provide that to teachers, so they can go into the class with the confidence that the learners will probably learn something. If you just give them a bunch of meta‑skills to work with, and then throw them into a highly pressured environment, they're going to fall to pieces. They need to have something to fall back on.Ross: Maybe there's an advantage of the Dunning‑Kruger effect. If you know almost nothing and you're really confident in it, that will overcome your lack of skill. If you're a new teacher and you said, "I'm telling you all these things, but maybe they're true. Maybe they're not."You maybe go into the classroom, and you wouldn't have the confidence to make up for your lack of skills. Maybe that Dunning‑Kruger effect, maybe there is some benefit to having that and believing in something even when you don't know much about it ‑‑ as a new teacher.Dave: It is to some extent, but every time, just keep on reminding the trainees that they can make their own...Simon: "This is the best way to do something. Or is it?[laughter]Dave: Just keep on pushing for deeper questions, like, "Was that effective in your lesson today? How do you know that? What real evidence were you going on? I saw the student do this. Why do you think that was? Do you think the same thing would work in another class?"Simon: What's the point of life? Why are you here?[laughter]Simon: Yes. Is anything even worth it?Ross: It's interesting. There must be a point where it would become counter‑productive and you just end up with...[crosstalk]Dave: Yeah, there's in so much doubt.Simon: No, it's true. Again, as a good trainer or a good manager, you should be able to spot when your teachers are ready, if they're not been challenged. When I was at [inaudible 10:14] you could see teachers that are ready to be pushed to the next level. People reach plateaus, and you could see when somebody goes, "Well I know everything now."Ross: That's a good point.Simon: "Actually, you don't. [laughs] Let me introduce you to some new ideas, like differentiation in the classroom or some of the higher‑level teaching skills." They go, "Oh wow! I had no idea you could do this." When their ability to implement what they know reaches what they know, then that's the time to give them more knowledge so they then turn that knowledge into skill.Dave: I like this idea of that plateau. If someone's already on like a slope, you don't want to stick them on a much steeper slope just for the sake of it.[crosstalk]Dave: ...just pick a Sisyphean boulder something. But if you're on a plateau already, you've got to get them on the slope.Ross: If you've had a trainee at the beginning of the course who's really struggling to give instructions, and you're like, "OK, here's a three‑step way of doing it," tell them in simple language, model it, and then ask questions.Dave: Show them, tell them, ask them, give them, Ross.Ross: Right, but then you wouldn't want to do afterward, "Well, when would that not be effective?" Do you know what I mean? You're just trying to get that person to that basic level.Simon: When you're observing them, you wouldn't want to sidle up to them and, "Sorry, um, you know that, according to Vygotsky, that's actually [inaudible 11:27] what you shouldn't have really done that there. This kid's ZPD is way off.[laughter]Ross: That might be too much.Paul Nation Ross: Hi, Paul. Welcome back. You published your first paper on language teaching in about 1970. You've had a very long career as well as a fascinating one. Can you tell us what's one thing that you've changed your mind about during your time from being a teacher all the way up to the present?Paul Nation: First of all, I like to think I always got it right from the beginning, [laughs] but I guess the main change that has occurred to me is the idea of the roles of the teacher and how the role of the teacher as a teacher becomes an important role but not the major role of the teacher.I say there's four or five roles of the teacher, and I always forget one of them. You know the number one role is the planner. The number two role is the organizer of activities and opportunities to learn. The third role's something like the trainer who trains the learners in strategies to learn, vocabulary and strategies to deal with the language learning.The fourth role would be the teacher as the tester who's giving learners feedback about their progress and showing them how much vocab they know and so on. The fifth role is the teacher as the teacher who actually gets up in front of the class or guides them through an intensive reading passage or something like that.I think that those roles are sort of ranked in the order of planner, organizer, trainer, tester, and teacher. That probably would be the major change I've come to during my reading of research, doing research, and so on. On the other hand, I also have to say that just about every PhD student I've had, and I've had a lot, have proved me wrong about the topic that they were working with.That's virtually without exception, sometimes proved me spectacularly wrong. I remember, for example, Teresa Chung doing research on technical vocabulary. I'd said in the first edition of "Learning Vocabulary in Another Language" that technical vocabulary probably made up about 5 percent of the running words in text.When she did her research, she found it made between 20 and 30 percent of the running words in the text, which is quite a bit different, one word out three compared to one word out of twenty. [laughs] That was sort of major changes, once people have done the research, to say, "Wow! I think I'm going to step back and change my ideas about that."I would say that the biggest one is the idea of you need a balanced approach to vocabulary learning and you need to see that teaching is a part of that, but only a part of it. You've got to make sure that the others are there. I would've given a much greater role to teaching very early on in my career.Matt Courtois Ross: Matt, what's something that you have changed your mind about, and why did you change your mind?Matt Courtois: What haven't I changed my mind about?[laughter]Matt: Looking back to my first year in Korea compared to now, I don't think there's a single belief that I still have that I had then. The biggest underlying thing that has changed in me was, at first when I was a teacher, I kind of thought the more knowledge I had about the language I could acquire, the better teacher I would become.I actually don't think that's really necessary. Being able to discuss any grammar point at the drop of the hat to me is not what makes a good teacher anymore. Having some of the skills to draw that from people, to run a good activity, and to facilitate improvement is much more essential to being a teacher than just knowing the subject matter.Ross: Can you remember when you changed your mind about that? Was it a long process?[crosstalk]Matt: It was a really long process. I taught in Korea and Russia, and probably my first year within China, I looked at teaching language in this way. Within my first year of teaching at my last company, there's a job opening for a content developer, content writer, something like that.I remember I took one of my favorite grammar skills lessons ‑‑ I think it was about the passive voice ‑‑ and I submitted it to the manager of this department. He sent me back an email that was three pages full of criticisms. The most positive things he said were basically about some of the animations that I had in my PPT...[laughter]Matt: ...not about the content of this deep analysis of the passive voice. He was just saying, "The method in what you're doing it, it's not about the grammar itself. It's how you present it," and stuff like this. I think I improved so much when that manager sent me such a critical feedback.I started approaching teaching grammar from, "What context am I going to use?" rather than having this giant scope of understanding the passive voice, every tense in English, rather than looking at myself as somebody who analyzes language. That's not my job.So many English teachers talk about how being prescriptive is so bad, but they're teachers. That's what they're doing. They're not writing dictionaries. They're not contributing to the corpus. We're not describing the language here. We're taking what those guys have and then presenting it to students in a way that they can practice it.Once I got over that mindset that, "I'm holding the key to the language, and I'm the person who's defining the language," and said, "No, I'm coming up with situations and facilitating situations in which they can use it," I think I improved a lot as a teacher and a trainer.Karin XieKarin: Teachers used to just think, "Well, my English is good, so I can teach English," or "I'm not confident in teaching English because I'm not confident in my English." Language awareness, like your knowledge in phonology, lexis, and grammar, they are important and are very helpful. It's just the teaching skills, they are very important, and they should be emphasized more.Ross: You need both, don't you?Karin: Yeah.Ross: If you don't know any English and you're the best teacher in the world, you can't teach English. Equally, if you're amazing in English and you can't teach at all, that's not going to work, either. You need a bit of both. At some point, especially for lower levels, the knowledge of English becomes less important than the skill to put it across.Karin: Because I was trained in the CertTESOL, DipTESOL way, I always believed that I need to build the classes around the learners, and I need to train teachers a reflective coaching way. I believed that was more effective than any other ways.Recently, I just come to realize that not necessarily, and use that as good challenge or good chance for me to try out different things, or give people different options and see how things goes. It's not one way better than the others. It's just there are different ways of doing things.Ross: This is one of the dangers of just working in one environment for a very long time. You're often only exposed to one way of doing things. You get transposed to another place, and you automatically just assume, "Well this isn't the right way to do things. This is wrong. This isn't the most effective." But is that true? Is there any evidence?Karin: Exactly. I think all the things that I've tried out shaped how I do training and classes now. They're definitely not the same as when I was in the old environment for such a long time.Carol Lethaby Tracy: Hi CarolRoss: Hi Carol. I think you're very well known for integrating ideas from research into your practice. We'd love to hear from you about what was one of the most important or the most interesting things that you've changed your mind about over the years.Carol Lethaby: I think the example that came to mind here certainly was not using the mother tongue in the classroom. I did my PGCE in the UK in learning to teach French and German. This was mid‑'80s, and the communicative approach in foreign language teaching then had a big hold on the profession.We were explicitly taught not to use English at all when we were teaching French or teaching German. Of course, I carried this on when I started teaching English. I did my Delta and the same thing, it came up all along the way. I remember it seemed to go against my intuition, but as I know now, don't always rely on your intuitions, because they might not be right.I actually did some research into this as a part of my master's degree here in Mexico and found out that, when you ask learners, one of the things I asked them in a piece of research I did, was, "Do you want your teacher to have English as their first language? Do you want your teacher to be a native speaker of English?" a list of pedigrees.The one that came out top at all levels, especially at beginner level, was they don't care if their teacher is a native speaker. They want a teacher who can speak their first language, who knows their first language.It made me think about, "Why then are we telling people you don't need to speak the learners' first language, you don't need to know the learners' first language, and you don't use the learners' first language. It's better not to"? Obviously, I was reading the history of English language teaching, Phillipson's Linguistic Imperialism.You realize how this happened and how this idea was transmitted and perpetuated. Now, knowing more about the brain and how we learn, I really don't believe that. I am convinced that we need to use the learner's first language in order to teach them another language.Ross: How would that look like in the classroom then, Carol? Do you have any examples of what that might look like with a group of students?Carol: I remember trying to teach the difference between first and second conditionals when I was teaching the younger Mexicans in Guadalajara here. There was this explanation that I was trying to work with them with levels of probability. It depended if you were an optimist or a pessimist whether you would use the first conditional or the second conditional.How confusing that was and how unsatisfactory that was for a learner, I'm sure. Now I would just tell those learners, "This is how you say it. The first conditional corresponds to this in Spanish and the second conditional corresponds to this in Spanish."Spending ages trying to define a word or an expression when just a quick translation could really help in that case, using the learners' language for effective reasons.I remember I didn't speak a word of Spanish when I first arrived here. I was given beginner's classes precisely because it was the idea that this would be a genuine communication situation, etc. I couldn't get to know my students.It means I couldn't ask them, "How are things going? How are you getting on in these certain situations?" Or, "What things are worrying you about learning English? Don't worry about this [inaudible 23:43] . It just means this. I can help you with this later."All these kinds of things that really enhanced language learning, I wasn't able to do because the idea was that we couldn't speak each other's language and only think in monolingual situations. It's just ridiculous not to take into account and use the learner's mother tongue.Ross Thorburn & Tracy Yu Ross: We heard there from a bunch of our favorite guests over the last couple of years about things that they have changed their minds about. Tracy, to finish the podcast, what have you changed your mind about?Tracy: There are a lot of things I have changed over the last few years. One thing is how I can connect on education‑related either theories or practice and into what I'm doing, my work in context. In the past, I remember when I started being a trainer, I read a lot of books about teaching, training, and theories in ESL, TESL, exactly related to this industry.Then, I realized maybe I just focused too specific to this industry, to this area. When I listened to podcasts and watch TV, or read other books, magazines, or journals, sometimes I realize that actually something that relates to this industry could really help what I'm doing. I need to give you an example, right?Ross: Give us an example, yeah.Tracy: I read a book about how marriage works. The book is "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work." When I started reading this book, I didn't expect any connection to work, but the more I read about it, I realize actually there were a lot of principles [laughs] can apply to work, to manage a team.For example, there's one thing mentioned about criticism versus complaint. You can see the difference between these two. You can say...Ross: What's the difference? Do you want to give us an example of each?Tracy: A complaint, you can say, "Oh, you didn't do this very well," or "You didn't complete this on time," for example, at work. Criticism, it's like, "Oh, you always did this this way. You're not able to do this," something like that.Ross: It sounds like more you're talking about the person rather than the actions that they've taken or not taken.Tracy: Yeah. Of course, people can complain. You can give constructive feedback to the other person. You can talk about the facts, you can talk about the behavior, but you don't jump into conclusion and say, "Oh, this person is not able to," or "This is always like this." You're not giving the person another chance to reflect and then to make things better.When you're working with colleagues or you're managing a team, it's really important to distinguish the difference between a complaint and a criticism. Another thing is super, super useful, when I had a difficult conversation or tried to give feedback to our staff, just try not to have a harsh start‑up when you're having a conversation.Even though before you start a conversation, you knew it's probably towards some kind of a conflict or uncomfortable situation, still try to avoid a harsh start‑up in a conversation. Maybe you want to ask this person how they feel, what's going on, and what happened, and find out more information.Then provide more specific information to the person. Then give the feedback and then action plan, rather than at the beginning is said something very negative. It's difficult for the person to receive your feedback.For you, Ross, you work in different roles for the last 12, 13 years. You were a civil engineer, and then you work in education. Anything that you've changed over the last few years?Ross: Something I'm in the process of changing my mind about is a lot of the things that we talk about here and we do on teacher training courses in materials design and management is we concentrate so much on what goes on in the classroom as that's where the learning and everything takes place. That's fundamentally the most important thing.I used to believe that, but I'm coming to believe more that what happens in the classroom might not be the most important part of their learning process. What might actually be more important is what happens before the class and what happens after the class.I found a nice quote yesterday from someone called Ausubel, hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. He says, "If I were to block out and reduce all of education's psychology to just one principle, I would say this. The most important single factor influencing learning is what the learner already knows. Ascertain this and teach them accordingly."That was really cool. How much time do we ever spend actually finding out what students already know? I would guess, generally, not very much time or not a lot of time. Certainly, on this podcast, we don't talk about that very much.I think the same thing for what happens after class. We tend to assume that things finish once the students walk out the door. We know from memory curves and things, if students don't revise what they've already learned, then they forget the vast majority of things that happen in classroom.That's something I've changed my mind about. I think we need to spend more time focusing on what happens outside the classroom every bit as much, if not more, compared to what happens inside the classroom.Tracy: How can you do that then, to find out more information before the class about the students?Ross: I don't have all the answers to it, but I think it's more important that we think, like ascertaining what students already know before lessons, finding out what problems do they have, and designing our lessons to try and solve specific issues that students have.What normally what happens is students get placed in a certain level. Then they just work through a course book, which roughly approximates what they know and what they don't know.We don't go into enough effort to find out what are the holes and the gaps, or the peaks and the troughs, in students' current ability and knowledge, and try and smooth over the troughs, to make sure what we're doing in class fills those in.Tracy: Have you ever seen any examples or some teachers who were able to focus on what happened before the class or after the class?Ross: Some things, like the whole flipped classroom principle, goes towards that. Some educational technology works towards aiming to find out what students know before the class. It has them answering questions and makes sure that they reach a level of mastery before they move on to the next topic.I don't think that's the norm in most scenarios. It's something that we don't talk about enough, and I think those things are every bit is important probably as what goes on in the classroom and deserve our attention a lot.Everyone, I hope that was interesting. I presume for a lot of people that the reason that you're listening to this podcast in the first place is so that we can change your minds about some issues that are important. Hopefully, it was useful hearing how some of our favorite guests have changed their minds about different things over the years.Tracy: Thanks very much for listening.Ross: For the last three years, thank you. Good‑bye.Tracy: Bye.

Find Lesson Planning for Language TeachersPrinciples of Task Design (With Dave Weller) - TranscriptionRoss Thorburn: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. Today, our favorite guest is with us, Dave Weller.Dave Weller: Hurrah!Ross: [laughs] Today, Dave and I are going to talk a bit about Task Design. Before we jump into that, why is Task Design useful or important, or worth thinking about?Dave: Good question. Mainly because when we first become teachers or, at least, I know when I did, I just ran with whatever activities were suggested to me, or games that other teachers have worked very well to get the students engaged and motivated.It was only later [laughs] that I started to question, "Hang on, are my students actually learning anything?" Then shamefully, I didn't think about that soon enough.Dave: That's when you start to realize that, is what I'm doing actually helping the learners, or is it just using time. That's where Task Design pops up, and I think, "OK, the way I run my activity, the way I've structured my activity, it can make a huge difference to what students think about, the language they use, and the practice they get."Ross: There's also maybe something about evaluating what you're already doing there, isn't there? That first step that you mentioned maybe is looking at, "What am I doing now? How good is it?" Maybe before I start designing anything else.Today, we're going to run through Dave's six top tips for ways to design tasks. We're going to look at aims, gaps, load, materials, thinking, and rehearsal. Tell us the first tip tasks should support aims.Dave: When you think about the task, think about what language is it likely to get students to produce. Is that the same as your target language? Often, especially if you're just looking for an activity or a game to fill time, you start running that activity, and the language that comes out of the student's mouth is very different.I'm using different grammar, different lexis, different from maybe that you were expecting. Sure, that is practice, but it might be something they already know really well. They default to something that they are confident using. It's not pushing to use things they're not comfortable with. Therefore, growing or getting better at the language doesn't really happen.Ross: I think as well this, it's maybe when you're lesson planning, it can also be worth thinking about changing your aim to reflect the task as opposed to just changing the task to reflect the aim. A lot of people maybe tend to start off with the aim and work forward from that. It's like forward planning, whereas, something I sometimes encourage people to do is reverse planning.Starting at the end of the class, what's a great task that you think is going to be useful for the students, and then trying to make sure that your aim, and everything you teach matches the task.Dave: If you have the luxury of doing that, that's almost the best way to do, but it depends where you're working and the context you're in. Some schools are quite strict about the syllabus they're using, or the course book you have to follow. You have to tick off certain grammar points or sets of vocabulary.If you would just let me free a context where maybe a class works, just like an English corner, then, sure, coming up with an activity you know will work well for that group and working backwards from that is freer.Ross: Again, maybe as well with that aim, it's easier practically to add things to it than to take things away from it. You're probably less likely to get a complaint if you've taught an extra few things that have gone beyond what's in the syllabus. The issue is usually when you cut things from it.Dave: Yes, totally.Ross: The next step is tasks need a gap. What's a gap, for those unfamiliar?Dave: [laughs] It doesn't mean you just stop half‑way through, and you freeze.[laughter]Dave: If there's no input for five minutes at all, you just have to take your little nap.[laughter]Ross: It's the same as a break.Dave: Yeah, I wish. Now, surprisingly, I don't see much written about this. There's an author, Prabhu, and he mentioned that in any type of communication, there are gaps. The three are the information gaps, where perhaps you and I have different information about subjects.Maybe, I want to get to the train station, and you know the way, and I don't. Then, there might be a reasoning gap. Perhaps we all have the same information, but we're trying how to use that information to achieve an objective.For example, planning a night out or choosing where to go on holiday. We're using our logic and our reason to pick the best option, and we can do that collaboratively.The last gap is an opinion gap, where students would agree or disagree with each other based on their personal preferences. Debates are a good example.Ross: I choose a new picture for the classroom or something like that, and here's a choice, which ones do you like, and justify it, why, that kind of thing.Dave: Yes. Exactly.Ross: I've also seen people add to this experience gaps or getting people to talk about what they personally have experienced in their own lives, and how that might be different between students and [inaudible 4:39] to that.Dave: For me, a lot of that could fall under the information gap because you're just talking about life experience, and I have that, and you don't. That's really good in more adult classes if you have a nice mix of students with different experience in the classroom.Ross: Do you want to talk about this for young learners for a second? Because I think with these, it's easier to think of examples for adults than for kids. For kids, we're talking about, for example, what might be a reasoning gap for young learners that would work?Dave: Sure. I'll start with the information gap. That could be, you give pairs different pictures. Student A has a picture of a toy or a character, and person B has a blank piece of paper. They're taking turns to describe that character to them, and then they got to draw it. Then I'll [inaudible 5:26] get, "Sky" and they've got a big head, they've got small eyes, or whatever it might be.Ross: [inaudible 5:31].[laughter]Dave: Yes. No hair.[laughter]Ross: It is something that is worth talking about is this classroom management aspect. When I see this going wrong, a lot of the time, someone's had this idea that student A will have this information, student B will not, and they have to talk, but what just ends up happening...Say, if it's a running dictation that the student whose gone outside to look at the picture, we detect just ends up writing the answer, or are going to find someone who activity...I've got my sheet with...Find someone who can speak more than two languages, and then I just give you the pen. Tell you to write your name in there.I've also seen one where students have to find a way from A to B on a map, but these students show each other the map, so there's no gap there. With that, it's really worth thinking about how it's actually going to play out in the reality of the classroom. How, as a teacher, are you going to make sure that students don't just take the short‑cut of showing the other person the information?Dave: Oh, absolutely. An example, just stay with the A and B describing pictures to each other, I might line mapping roads. We'll have them get one road to [inaudible 6:36] and face the other road, and fixed seats somewhere. They will have to visibly hold up their paper in front of them.As a teacher, you can immediately see if someone's not doing what you've asked them to do, and it's a point of frown on them, whatever your behavior management system is.Ross: Sure.Dave: Or even making a favorite toy, or you're going to have to design a new character when you've watched a very short clip of a monster movie, a cartoon monster, and they have to make you a monster. You give them a certain set of features.Like, you can choose from these body parts. There's a selection of ears and eyes, your legs and arms, and body types, and then they have to put them together to create the scariest monster they can.Ross: I love those. One of the problems you often get with that is that teachers assume that, because I've taught, say, body parts, that that type of task is going to work really well. What I think the actual language you get in a task like that is like, "No, I disagree. I want this one. This is better. I don't like that."I think often with those, that's something that's really worth thinking about. Like what is the language that's going to come up? Because, really probably a lot of time what you're doing is just pointing to something and say, "I want this one," or "I like that one."Dave: Sure. The trick is, again, that's just shouldn't be the main task. That should be the pre‑task almost. Actually, it's really nice. It's another one of the criteria for task design, which is, think about or consider what students are going to think about.Cognitive psychology does show us that what students think about, they will remember. There's a really nice quote that memories erases your thought. You probably heard that on here before.Ross: No, actually I think that will be the first time, but Daniel Willingham, right?Dave: Yes, from his book, "Why Don't Students Like School?" If students are over‑excited, if the task is too stimulating, I always revert to the first language, especially young learners, and start using first language to complete the task.Ross: Because almost with kids there's this maybe lack of being able to self‑regulate in both your own behavior, but I guess, also in what language you're going to use. If you've got them dialed up to 11 on the excitements scale, then the chance that you're going to be able to decide to use your second language to do this thing is pretty unlikely.Dave: Exactly. Yes.Ross: Taking that also links back to what you're saying at the very beginning, that, as a new teacher or as new teachers, I think a lot of us assume that if the students are smiling and having fun and they're excited, then it's a great class, but maybe sometimes dialing that back a bit is actually beneficial.Dave: Absolutely. The opposite is entirely true, as well. If they're bored, I'll be talking in the first language but probably off topic.Ross: It's some sweet spot in the middle [laughs] between utter boredom and complete excitement.Dave: Yeah, exactly. That thing, that example you gave of, if they are making or creating something, maybe drawing or making something out of Play‑Doh, or whatever they're doing, they won't be using the language to do that. They'd taken a product of that task and then using it to use the language that you want to. That's where the learning's going to happen.Ross: Sorry to start jumping around there, but I think this relates to your last point of mentally rehearsing the tasks and thinking about like, what is actually physically going to happen here? I think that's one example.Another one is maybe, we took the farm animals and then for the last hour people are going to make their own farm, but, of course, what language are you using there? You're probably saying things like, "Can I have a red pencil, please?" Or, "Please, pass me the scissors," which is completely unrelated to the farm animals. The students won't be thinking about that at all.Dave: Exactly. It's so simple to avoid that by very quickly putting yourself in the student's shoes and thinking, what language do I need to use to complete this task?Ross: To take us back maybe to a minute if we're teaching adults. I think if it's a very high stakes class, if you're being observed for something that's really, really important, and you've got a task. You can always just find maybe two or three students wandering around the school and trying to do the task within 15 minutes.Not the students that will be in your class later, but just to see how actually it pans out, or just turn around to the person next to you in the teacher's room and go, "Can you do this with me for two minutes?"Dave: Jump out from behind and photocopy it.[laughter]Dave: I need your help with a task.Ross: Yes, covering this farm.[laughter]Ross: How about going back to number three then, cognitive load? That's a term that certainly I was not familiar with until relatively recently. What's cognitive load?Dave: Cognitive load is the challenge of the task itself. How difficult will learners find it? If you are expecting to use language that is far above what they can do, they'll look at the task or start to think about, realize it's well beyond what they can do, and you'll see engagement just drop like a stone.Again, the idea of picking a sweet spot between something that they're able to do with help, and this is almost like scaffolding of all the idea of what they can do. [inaudible 11:20] what I can do with help today, they'll be able to do without help tomorrow.Ross: I guess, here, as well, we're not just talking about necessarily how difficult the language is, but we might be thinking about how cognitively tough the task is. Earlier, for example, we were talking about information gaps, reasoning gaps, and opinion gaps.Maybe a reasoning gap where you've got this much money, these are some different options, these are some different preferences of people in the groups. That sounds like there's going to be a lot more thinking going on there from the students than an information gap where you described...[crosstalk]Ross: Right. When that happens, maybe it's worth thinking about how the processing power and the student's brain is going to be used to be maybe more thinking about the problem rather than for producing language.You might get less accuracy and less fluency. Just like me on this podcast, I stumble over words when I'm trying to explain a difficult concept.[crosstalk]Dave: That happens to all of us, right? You can see when someone's very familiar with the topic because they're fluent, they're calm, they're confident. They're not using discourse markers like, "um," "uh," and so on. When we're trying to think about how best to explain it, we slow down, we stumble over our words.Another thing that is very worth mentioning is that this level of challenge can also apply to the incidental language in class, like teachers giving instructions. I've observed classes where the students are frazzled by the time they get to the task, because the teacher speaks very quickly, they're not creating their language appropriately for the level.The students are leaning forward, trying to follow the thread of the teacher, and then they finish, they have to clarify with their friends next to them. "Did she say this?" "Did she say that?" Then by the time they get to the task, "I've just spent five minutes of intensive listening practice," and now you can get a listening to do that.Ross: It's almost like what students will think about. It sounds like in your example there they were thinking about what on earth could the instructions be rather than what was in the lesson.[laughter]Ross: Well, Dave, thanks for joining us. All of those tips were from just one tiny part of one chapter in "Lesson Planning for Language Teachers ‑‑ Evidence‑Based Techniques for Busy Teachers" by our very own, Dave Weller. Dave, where can people get a hold of it?Dave: Thanks to the plug, Ross. This is a brand new book for me. You can find it on Amazon as an e‑book or a paperback. Planning should support learning. It should use evidence‑based best practices, and it shouldn't take long.[laughter]Dave: Yeah. I think that's the key point. With those principles in mind, I've created 9 or 10 chapters in the book using current research, tested techniques so teachers can end up planning better, faster, and with less stress.Ross: Great. All right. Dave, thanks for joining us.Dave: It's been a pleasure.

Dave Woodward helped shape the entire affiliate program at ClickFunnels. He's a personal mentor, friend, and brother.   It's long overdue that I invite him to come on Sales Funnel Radio to share his wisdom...   I'm really pumped about this. Frankly, it's been in the planning for, like, seven months now…   I have wanted to get interview Dave Woodward  for a very, very long time.     If you guys don't know anything about him, he is one of the backbones of ClickFunnels...   … so you’re in for a treat.   I think it was October-ish 2018, just after the 30-Days Book went out. I was approached by ClickFunnels to write a chapter for a NEW book...   And, NEWS FLASH…   In case you’re slow to catch on ;-) this is me, announcing the release of the NEW Affiliate Bootcamp Book!   And of course, in true Steve Larsen fashion, I'm gonna over-deliver bonuses to the hilt, so you’ll wanna buy the book through my link…   THE NEW AFFILIATE BOOTCAMP BOOK   The book asks the question:   “How would you retire as a ClickFunnels affiliate in a hundred days?”   I spent pretty much all of my Christmas break writing my chapter.   ...it's NOT straight theory kinda stuff.   This is A LOT of the strategies I’ve used to crush it in affiliate contests.   So, I'm really excited about this.   For the 30-Days Book, I interviewed Russell…   For this one, I thought I would interview one of the backbones of Clickfunnels and the reason why:   Stuff gets done   There's an affiliate program that's run well.   The Dream 100 program is killin’ it.   ...and the name of that individual is Dave Woodward. He's a beast. He's the man...   Dave has become one of my favorite people on this planet, a mentor, a friend, a brother, and I look up to him like crazy.   I care dramatically what Dave Woodward thinks about me.   Maybe I shouldn't... I'm NOT supposed to say that, but it's true.   I really appreciate him, and everything he's done for me, and my family.   I am very, very excited, and completely, (in full transparency), extremely honored, to have our guest today.   This has been an interview I have been planning, and looking forward to, for a little over a year and a half now. I'm excited and to be completely honest, a little bit nervous.   I have tremendous respect for Dave Woodward. - tremendous respect.   If you guys don't know who Dave is, you should!   INTRODUCING DAVE WOODWARD   Dave is one of the cornerstones and keystones of all of ClickFunnels, and why it works…   ...please take that from a guy who sat across, and watched, and was very much a part of the intimate workings of what ClickFunnels is, and how it works.   Dave is one of the reasons why ClickFunnels is where it is.   He is one of the reasons why relationships are the way they are.   And,  in my honest opinion, the reason why Russell can even get his message out there…   I have a ton of respect for Dave and for what he does.   He has gone from a friend to an incredible mentor to me. I so appreciate and love him, and I'm very honored to interview him today.   Dave, thanks for being here.   DAVE: Well, I'm extremely honored, and I'm very nervous myself, so that makes two of us.   Thank you for allowing me to come on your show. I have such huge props for you, and I just admire all your work, and everything that you've done…   No one implements like you implement.   I love seeing it, you're such a role model to my kids, it's just fun, and I love seeing the impact that you're literally having across the entire world... so, it's an honor to be here. STEVE: Oh thank you very much, man. I'm glad to have ya.   Now a lot of people may not know….   Dave sits, literally across from his seat, he literally is looking into Russell's office - I mean he's like right there…   There's this tradition, (at least when I was there), it looked kinda like this…   So Dave and I, right, we're working, Melanie's there, we're getting our stuff done. Usually, there's some music going.   We're sitting around, and then all of a sudden Russell goes,”“UHHH!”   Which means…   “Get up and run to my desk.”   So Dave and I, would get up and run over to Russell's desk, and we'd basically watch the zeroes and ones God pour down wisdom into Russell's marketing brain…   https://media.giphy.com/media/3JSGn9bSDpzAFutb6W/giphy.gif ... and gold would just fall out. Dave and I, would both try to keep up, while at the same time validating, “Oh my gosh, that is a cool idea, better catch on to it...”   ... it's like really, really fun. One of the funnest environments. I miss it terribly.   Now, but a lot of people don’t know that you had a history with Russell and, pre-ClickFunnels. Right?   I mean, what were you doing before coming into ClickFunnels?   HOW DAVE MET RUSSELL   DAVE: I had my own marketing consulting agency for years.   In fact, I actually met Russell…   So, I come from the direct response marketing days…   Old Dan Kennedy, Bill Glazer, copywriting type of stuff... years and years and years ago.   And at the time I had a lot of clients who were in either the insurance, the health field, or else mortgages.   A lot of them were trying to figure out this whole online thing… (this is like 2007, 2008).   And it was that point where I thought, I gotta figure out this whole internet stuff. I've got too many clients who are wanting information about it.   I'd been on Russell's list, I'd been on other lists, and Russell was coming to do a seminar in affiliate marketing, not far from where I lived in Southern California…   So I thought, “Oh great, I'll just go, and go and listen there.”   I'm a huge believer of either working your way in, or buying your way in. And I've always preferred buying your way in, if it's at all available, it's faster. So it was Russell and Stu McLaren, and Russell got up and said:   "Hey, you know what? If you guys would like to take us out to lunch or dinner or anything, to just kinda pick our brains, go to the back and sign up."   I literally jumped out of my chair, ran to the back, and I signed up for EVERY breakfast, lunch, and dinner that Russell had.   I'm like, “The guy's either gonna hate me, or we're gonna become friends through this thing.”   I wanted to get to know him better, and so I literally signed up for EVERYTHING!   I'm sure when he first got it he was like, “Who in the world is this Dave Woodward guy? What have I gotten myself into?”   I can guarantee you, Russell would never do that now. You could never take him to lunch or dinner, but he was just getting started.   … and so we created a deep friendship.   I ended up setting up his 10th anniversary for Collette. They flew down to Southern California and went out to dinner, then flew to Catalina...   Russell is more than a friend, he's like a brother.   He's probably, in all honesty,  the closest friend I have aside from my wife.   There's nothing I wouldn't do for him.   Over the years, we've had the opportunity of doing a ton of different projects together, some in the real estate niche, some in the network marketing niche, some in the fitness niche.   Some made money, some lost money.   My very first product was with Russell - it was Legendary Marketers.   STEVE: No way.   DAVE: Yeah.   STEVE: Oh, I didn't know that was. Cool.   DAVE: And so, that was the very first product that I ever did...   Again it was one of those things where I saw, just his desire to help others grow, and, at whatever the cost. Just, just pour so much into people, and I was just drawn to him…   … and we've just literally become lifelong friends.   When we started ClickFunnels, I was still in Southern California. I was flying up here every other week, and Russell was like, “You just need to move up here..”   I'm like…   Dude, listen, we've been through a lot of things over the years, and NOT all of them have worked…   Before I uproot my family, I wanna actually make sure this whole ClickFunnels thing is actually gonna take off.   And then, as you can tell right now, it'll be three years this August.   So we moved up here after ClickFunnels was up and running for about a year and a half.   STEVE: I remember that. Only because it was like two months before, you flew in, that's when I moved my family up.   Russell was like, “You know Dave Woodward?” ...and I had just started seeing your majesty in the inner workings of ClickFunnels - all the stuff you're doing with Dream 100, the affiliate stuff…   … and Russell was like,  “He's gonna move on up,” and I was like, “No way, that's awesome.”   You moved up, and I kid you not…   We were already kind of naturally high energetic people, you, and I, and Russell, but the overall energy, it was like one plus one equals twelve when you came in!   I was like, “This is awesome,”...it's not a classic business office…   We were running around barefoot in t-shirts, shorts... music going all the time…   it's such a fun place to work and try to change the world also.   So, how did you end up doing stuff for Russell's people - the affiliate manager was your first role, right?   DAVE: Actually, no. I was in charge of all our business development. So one of the pieces of it was the affiliate plan.   STEVE: That's right, my bad.   DAVE: Yeah, so, what happened was, so …   My coming into ClickFunnels, (as far as, one of the things), we were at TNC, (we’ve just come back from TNC 10, so this must have been TNC, like five, or six), and it was ClickFunnels' first booth, at TNC, and they had put us in the far back corner…   I was like, “This just sucks. We can't do this. No one's gonna see us.”   Russell was actually speaking at TNC, and he was like, “Gosh, I just wish we had some way of getting attention to us, no one's gonna come to us…”   ...because it wasn't in the main ballroom…   He was like,  I wish we could just get some of those like showroom girls, you know, event girls, whatever it is.”   I'm like, “Dude, you're in my city. This is San Diego. I promise you, I will get you some girls.”   And sure enough, within about two hours, we had about five girls there, basically handing out t-shirts and directing people where to go...       And that's, I guess when Dillon and Todd were like, “We definitely need him more full-time than he is currently,” and that's how it started.   STEVE: Oh, man. Yeah, yeah. There have been multiple times where you've done stuff like that. Russell flies in, you fly in, you know.   Guys, Dave, Dave is the one that protects Russell emotionally when we travel as well. Multiple times, just protecting him.   Making sure, “Hey, we need to get somewhere,” or making sure Russell is where he needs to be, and protecting him from people who may be, respectfully, somewhat of a time suck.   There are just so many stories that are just popping into my head.   Oh my gosh…   You guys flew in once, and Russell didn't have any time to sell, or didn't get order forms, and you literally, in the lobby…   What's this story again? It's awesome.   DAVE: A friend of ours, basically in the health space, flew into Denver…   I love to sell, which is weird because for years I hated selling. It was like the worst thing in the world.   I would never, ever sell. I would never associate myself with selling...   … NEVER, dirty, bad!   But, I remember, we flew in, and I was sitting there talking to the promoter, and he basically said:   “Well, you know what, I thought we were gonna have more time. we ran over, we only really have about 25, 30 minutes, and you can't sell”   I'm like, “Dude, we flew all the way to Denver. We're not here NOT to sell.”   And he says, "No you really can't sell."   So I said, "Well, how much time do we have?" He said, "Well, you've only got 30 minutes."   I'm like, “Well we need at least 45.” He said, "Okay, 45 minutes."   I said, "If I just have a little tiny offer, would that be okay?" He said, "Yeah, but I don't want a full pitch." I'm like, “No problem.”   So I literally went into the little business center, and I created an order form on the computer they had there, (I'm sure it's so completely non-compliant)...   It was, honestly, just name, email, address, phone number, credit card - that's it.   It was printed off black and white and there was nothing fancy to it. I don't even know if they knew what they were buying.   But, just like Russell does, he was able to get up and he spoke... I could tell the promoter at the back was just getting antsy.   He's like, “You gotta hurry, you gotta hurry, gotta hurry.”   I'm like, “Russell let's just go a little bit faster.”   So, all of a sudden, he gets to the pitch.   He's like, “Listen, I don't have time to go through this, but you're gonna get this, this, this, this, and this…   ...and if you want, Dave's got some order forms, just take the order form and give them to us, and we'll process it.”   I literally had someone come back there and grab it out of my hand, write on it, and slap it down right in front of Russell on the stage.   Usually, we get table rushed at the back, but we had this massive podium rush. Everyone went to the front, and it was hilarious.   We out the room and we just laughed.   It's those types of moments, where I'm like, “No matter what it takes when you have an opportunity, we're gonna sell...”   And we sold, and it did very well.   STEVE: You guys knocked out the house, is what I heard. Just blew it out on a whim. I mean, come on! That's the kind of team that you guys are. It's just awesome.   Hey, so I wanted to ask a little bit about this Affiliate Book that's coming out - you have such unique eyes from where you are, and where you get to sit.   I know you get to work a lot with:   Biz Dev   Bringing in new Dream 100 people   All the affiliate stuff as well   … what is this New Affiliate Book, by the way?   DAVE: Oh, it is super, super cool… so this whole idea behind affiliate marketing ... First of all, for those of you who aren't familiar with affiliate marketing, it's probably the easiest way to get started online, because you don't have to have your own product.   You are literally promoting someone else's product.   And for us, they're promoting ClickFunnels.   We have a whole bunch of front end products because it's really hard to promote just a free trial -  one of those was 30days.com. Another one is OFA…   If you're not on OFA, my gosh, the One Funnel Away Challenge, Steven is just crushing it -  so you definitely need to be in that.   We had so much success with 30days.com - the idea behind that summit was, Russell went out to a lot of our Two Comma Club award-winning people, like Steven, and basically said:   “Hey, if you were to lose everything, and all you had was ClickFunnels, and your marketing know-how, what would you do in the next 30 days, to make money?”    ..and they put together a 540-page book, and it became a front-end for the One Funnel Away Challenge.   Well, as we were looking at that model, it became super, super successful, and we realized...   Steven actually helped build out Affiliate Bootcamp, which has been the primary product we've used to train our affiliates over the last year and a half, and we're at a point right now where we're trying to think…   If we were to update it, how would we do it best?   And we thought, instead of us doing it…   Why not reach out to the people who've been the most successful doing affiliate marketing inside of ClickFunnels, and have them tell their stories…   ... and use somewhat of the same premise as the 30 Day Book…   Not necessarily, if you lost everything and only had 30 days, but, “If you were to start over as an affiliate, what are the things that you would wanna do?”   What are the different things that would actually provide the greatest return in the shortest amount of time?   Because for a lot of affiliates, it's like, “Ah, I've got my own job, I don't have a whole bunch of time, ” and it was just fascinating.   Bailey Richert is the one who basically put it together for us, she went out, and interviewed 17 of our top affiliates…   I was literally talking to her today, and she goes, “You know, Dave, the 30days.com was really cool, but the real secret sauce was on the back end after you bought the product you got behind the scenes of their actual funnel…”   She said, "I don't know what it was with these affiliates? They literally gave every single thing on the front end."   So those people who actually get involved in our New Affiliate Launch, or Summit are going to get the very best of 17, (we may actually get to 20, but 17 right now), people who have literally been crushing it as an affiliate for ClickFunnels sharing EVERYTHING:   YouTube strategies   How to do an offer?   What is a bridge funnel?   How do you build a list?   How do you build a product that ties into your list to provide even greater value so that people fall in love with you, as well as the new product that you might be introducing them to?   So, the whole idea behind this is really to have a person create their own product/ business on the front-end without having to create all the products, (and everything else), on the back end...   … and NOT have to worry about the support.   So, I'm so excited about it...  because it’s literally going to be the BIGGEST game changer for us.   Currently, Steve, we have five people who have done over a million dollars in affiliate commission so far.   Five people who have hit the two comma club as an affiliate for ClickFunnels.   STEVE: Oh man.   DAVE: It's just insane.   You know, when we first started this thing, we came up with this idea of the dream car…   The idea behind it is, if you got a hundred people, we'd pay $500 for your lease or purchase of your dream car.   At 200 people, we'd pay $1,000.   I thought, “No one's ever gonna get to 200 people!”   ...and now we have people who have thousands of affiliates...   Thousands of ClickFunnels accounts because of it.   So the idea behind affiliate marketing:   It's the easiest way to get started online.   This new affiliate summit is literally gonna give you, truly, the step-by-step program from 17 of the top affiliates that we have.   They're gonna break down, NOT only just affiliate marketing, but how they actually get traffic, how do they actually build an offer, how they build a bridge page.   And you’ll actually see some of their actual bridge pages, as well.   We were sitting there trying to price this thing out, and I'm like, “You understand this is like a $500 product,” and Bailey's like, “Yeah, but summits only sell for like $47 to $67.”   And I'm like, “Oh my gosh, alright, we'll do it, whatever price.”   I don't know what price point we're gonna settle at  - somewhere between $47 and $97, I don't know...   But it's people like you, Stephen, who literally said, "Alright, let me show you exactly what it really takes. Let me go through and break it down step by step, how you actually can make tens of thousands of dollars a month, as an affiliate."   And I know we pay you a pretty hefty cheque, just in affiliate commission.   STEVE: Yeah, it's, uh ...   And what's funny everybody, is that it's kinda on the back-end of my business and it's just because of the strategy.   I gotta tell you, I loved writing the 30 Days chapter, but the affiliate chapter... oh my gosh, I took all of Christmas, like three or four days, to write that thing - it was beautiful.   DAVE: Well actually Bailey, (just between you and I), even though anyone who listens to this will now know it, Bailey actually said yours is the best one…   … honestly, because it was so detailed, Stephen.   The way you did it, she actually wants to lead with yours to set the stage for the other ones...   Because of the way you talked about:   Bridge Funnels   Offers   Bonuses   I mean, you were our top affiliate for 30days.com, and it was just crazy. And, I've seen you do that multiple times, even in our One Funnel Away Challenge.   And the crazy thing about the One Funnel Away Challenge was you came in dead last and didn't start until like three days left. It was crazy.   STEVE: That 10X Secrets thing...   DAVE: That's what it was.   And you were right in the middle of OfferMind, I think. Was that it?   STEVE: Yeah, yeah.   DAVE: And I was asking you to teach some of our speaker training, and you had no time. No time at all. And yet, to see you come in, and use this strategy that you now taught in that chapter, it was just brilliant to see.   The thing that I love most about the chapter that you wrote, is your chapter actually goes in through, literally, step by step…   It's how you teach -  you're so very methodical in teaching practical steps - literally, it's ‘paint by numbers.’ It's the easiest way you can do it…   I mean, step one, step two, step three.   And because you've been through it, you lived through it, and you started with nothing…   ...and NOW, you're one of our top affiliates!   It's just neat that you were so kind and so generous with spending as much time as you spent on that chapter.   It's probably going to be one of our leading chapters.   STEVE: Oh man, I appreciate that a lot.   Well,  what can somebody do ... What's a favorite way ... I mean, you have such a unique area that you get to see all these different affiliates…   If somebody’s new and doesn't have much of a following, what should they be doing if they want to become an affiliate?   DAVE: I think, it goes back to, probably your secret sauce, and that's publishing.   I think, honestly, and as much as people hate it, I think it’s one of the coolest things.   People wanna find someone they can connect to, so documenting your journey as an affiliate, is probably the best thing that you can do, because later you’re gonna be able to sell that journey.   And it may take a little bit of time, but if I was a brand new affiliate, just starting off, I would start publishing on a regular basis.   You could pick:   Dotcom Secrets   Expert Secrets   30 Days   ….I don't care which product you want.   I would literally go in, I would make it your own, I would teach what you learn, on a Facebook live, on an Instagram story, whatever it might be, and refer people to it:   “This is what I've learned.”   Because people love understanding the take a way that you got and seeing how that you're actually using that.   So, I think that's probably one of the things that I would look at.   Where MOST affiliates go wrong is, they think they're just gonna take the affiliate link and just promote it directly, and that's why I love your chapter… because you were so anti that.   You're like, “You can't do that! Let me show you what you can do.”   And I think, as an affiliate just getting started, just pick one thing…   And, again, as you mentioned before, just go all in on it. Study it. Make it your own.   And that way when you're teaching it, people are going, “Oh, that's how that works. Oh, okay, now I understand,” and then people can connect with that… and they'll love the journey as well.   STEVE: Oh man, that's awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time.   You know, I have such respect for you, and what you do, and just love your family -  my wife and I talk about you guys a lot.   We love your sons, they're all awesome and incredible - we just love your family and everything that you guys do.   And I really mean what I say,   I really believe that half the reason Russell can do what he does is that he’s got you in his corner, just fighting battles he didn't even know about.   You know what I mean?   Just going to bat, getting all the dirties away that are out there trying to take advantage, you know, stuff like that.   It's just this role that is like so, I don't even know, it's special. And it's fun to see it.   DAVE: Thank you.   STEVE: So I just, anyway. Any parting advice or words before we end up here?   DAVE: You know, for me, I think the one thing I would tell people is just don't give up.   I think the hardest part for affiliate marketing, or even for a lot of the online marketing is just, you have a dream out there, and you see it, and you want it so bad…   ... and yet things don't go exactly the way that you want.   You can joke around about this idea, being one funnel away, but you truly are…   You just don't know which funnel that's gonna be.   And so, I would just say:   If this is what you wanna do, don't let anything get in your way.   It's possible, things happen... it doesn't go as fast as you want, I'll let everyone understand, I'm totally transparent...   It never works as fast as you want   ,...but for those who stick it out, you get to this little corner and you literally hockey stick and life takes off for you.   I saw the same thing with you last year, where you got going and you’re putting forth all this effort, and all of a sudden you get to this little corner, and you literally hockey stick, and life just takes off for you.   And I think the problem is, most people aren't willing…   Again it's that, 99 yards does not a touchdown make…   You gotta be willing to go all the way   As long as you don't quit, and just realize that you're in that phase of learning…   There are two parts…    You have the:   Learning phase   Earning phase   Too often people wanna jump into the earning phase, without paying their dues in that learning phase.   If you'll spend the time in that learning phase, the money that will come later in life - it's just crazy. Astronomical.   STEVE: Oh, man. Well, thank you so much. You're a friend, a mentor, a brother, and just, I love and appreciate you. Thanks for being on.   Awesome episode, right?   Hey, bear with me for just a moment while I tell you about makeaffiliatesgreatagain.com.   Probably one of the most fragile phases of being an entrepreneur is that tender spot where you have just enough cash coming in to get excited, but expenses also increase a little while you take on new tools and new systems, new teams.   It can be heart pounding, and frankly, nerve-wracking.   Well, one of the ways I've kept ownership of my companies and NEVER picked up any debt or used any of our family finances to grow the business, was through affiliate marketing.   My first dollar online actually came from affiliate marketing, ONLY a few years ago.   So I often get asked the question:   “Steve, how can you have been bootstrapping this and scraping by so hard just a few years ago, but now have a business that makes millions in revenue?”   … that's a fair question.   So besides having kick butt products, when I've needed to get some extra cash for an expensive project, I have a very specific method of affiliate marketing that gets me paid to sell other people's products.   You wanna see how I do it? Just go to makeaffiliatesgreatagain.com.   ClickFunnels actually wants to know how I've been doing this as well…   So I just wrote a chapter in ClickFunnels new book called Affiliate Bootcamp... and if you wanna see my chapter, and be shown how I treat affiliate cash in my business, just go to makeaffiliatesgreatagain.com…   You'll get a bunch of other cool stuff from me - like, the actual Make Affiliates Great Again Funnel…   The one you're gonna see there - it’s pre-built - it’s awesome - and you can download it.   You also get my audio chapter on how I create affiliate offers. You get the actual video of me training my team on how to build Make Affiliates Great Again - it's crazy valuable.   Plus you also get several my other stage speeches.   How I launched my affiliate offers…   And you'll even get a discount ticket to OfferMind… + the Make Affiliates Great Again Mini-Course…   Is it okay if I over deliver???   If you want ALL that for free... plus other things, literally just sign up at makeaffiliatesgreatagain.com... and then, sign up for the New Affiliate Bootcamp through my affiliate link. Go figure.   My friends, get rich, give back.

On today’s episode you will hear part 3 of 4 of Russell’s interview with Andrew Warner about the Clickfunnels start up story. Here are some of the awesome things you will hear in this part of the story: Hear how selling Clickfunnels at a Mike Filsaime event got Russell his first ever big table rush at the end of his presentation. Hear from both Dave and John about how they feel about Russell and what they do for the company. And find out how going to Dream Force this year, renewed Russell’s passion for growing his business. So listen here to find out more about the Clickfunnels start up story. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you enjoyed episodes 1 and 2 of the interview with Andrew Warner at the Dry Bar Comedy Club where he was telling the Clickfunnels startup story. I hope you are enjoying this interview series so far, and I hope also this motivates you guys to go over to the mixergy podcast and subscribe to everything that Andrew does. Like I said, he is my favorite interviewer and I think that what he does is second to none. So I hope that you guys enjoy him as well, and go subscribe to the mixergy podcast. But with that said, I’m going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back we will start into part 3 of the Clickfunnels startup story interview. Andrew: I actually got, I did see, I don’t know, I didn’t see the video you mentioned, but I did see what it looked like. Here’s one of the first versions. He compared it to Clickfunnels, he said, I mean to Lead Pages. He said, “Look at how Lead Pages has their stuff all the way on the left, all the controls.” Oh you can’t see it. Oh, let me try it again, let me see if I can bring up the screen because this is just, it’s just too good. Hang on a second. I’m just constantly amazed how you’re able to draw people to you. So this is the article from Lead Pages, this is the first landing page from Clickfunnels, this is what he created before, this is what you guys did together. This is your editor and h e said, “Look, if you’re on Lead Pages, their controls, their editor is all the way on the left and it’s just moving the main content to the right, which is not looking right. And I prefer something that looks like this, with a hundred pixels on the left, a hundred pixels…” I go, who knows a hundred pixels, it’s like you, what is this? Russell: Dylan is obsessed with that type of stuff, it’s amazing. Andrew: Obsessed. And you draw people like that. You draw people like Dave, who is just phenomenal. Dave, the traffic and conversion event that he was just talking about, is that the one that you went to? Dave: The one after that. Andrew: The one after that. Okay, we’ll come back to that in a second then. So this became your next version, you brought on a new partner, and then you did a webinar with this guy. Who is this guy? Russell: It’s Mike Filsaime, one of my first friends online. It actually wasn’t a webinar, it was a live event. He was doing a live event in San Diego and he was like, “You have to come and sell Clickfunnels.” And I was like, “Nobody’s buying Clickfunnels.” We had a free trial and like, we couldn’t give it away. It was crazy. And he’s like, “Well, you’re on this website, you’re picture is there, you have to come and sell Clickfunnels, and I need you to sell it for at least $1000.” Because the way it works, if you speak at someone’s event, you sell something, you split the money 50/50. So he’s like, “It needs to be at least $1000.” And I was all bummed out. I didn’t want to do it. And the event actually started, but they were streaming it live online, so I was actually sitting at our office in Boise, watching it as I’m putting together my slides to create Clickfunnels, and then flew out to the event. And then we had a booth, and I don’t know if I told you this, we had a booth and Lead Pages had a booth right across the little hallway, skinny hallway. And Todd’s wife was manning our booth and then Lead Pages was right there, and it was so funny because she was not shy at all about talking about Lead Pages. She’s like, “Yeah, we’re like Lead Pages except for way better. We can do this and this.” And the other guy is sitting there like, right in front of her as she’s telling them everything. And it was..anyway, I digress. It was pretty funny. Andrew: By the way, she’s still at it. I saw a video that you guys created, you were talking to her and she goes, “I will be Clickfunnels.” I go wait a minute, you still had that fire, okay. So you were at that event. Russell: So we’re at the event and there’s probably, I can’t remember, 150-200 people maybe in the room. So I got the slides up and Dylan was there and he was like, when we got to the funnels he was going to demo the editor, so I did the whole thing, showed the presentation and we demo’d Clickfunnels and at the end of the thing I sold. And I’ve been good onstage, but by far, that was the first time in probably 8 years that I’d seen a table rush, where people are stepping over the things, jumping around, trying to get to the back to buy as fast as they could. Andrew: What did you say to get them to want to do that? Russell: We made a really, I mean we gave the presentation, and gave a really good offer at the end. They get a year of Clickfunnels for free, plus they get training, plus they were going to get all these other things for $1000. Andrew: It was $1000 training and a year of Clickfunnels for free, and then they become long term members. And it was also called, Funnel Hackers? Russell: Funnel Hacks, yeah. Andrew: Funnel Hacks. And that’s the thing that became like… Russell: The culture. Andrew: This culture, this tribe. It wasn’t just they were signing to learn from you, they were becoming funnel hackers. That’s it. Russell: I mean, that wasn’t planned though. It was like, I was trying to think about a sexy name for the presentation, so I’m like ah, Funnel Hacks. And somebody owned FunnelHacks.com, and I’m like, I’m still doing the presentation that way. And then later we made t-shirts that said, “Funnel Hackers” and then now we got 4 or 5 people have tattooed that to their bodies, it’s really weird. But anyway, that’s what happened. We did that and we sold it and I remember going to dinner that night with the guys who were there, and Todd and his wife and everything. And we were all excited because we made some money finally. But I was just like, “You guys don’t understand, like I’ve spoken on a lot of stages, and I haven’t seen a table rush like that.” And I remember back, there was a guy, he passed away a couple of years ago, his name was Fred Catona. And he was a radio guy. He was the guy who did the radio commercials for, do you guys remember, it’s got the guy from Star Trek, what’s his name? Audience member: Priceline. Russell: Priceline. He did the Priceline radio commercials and made that guy a billionaire. And he told me when we were doing the radio ads, “This is what’s going to happen. We’re going to test your ad and if it works, I’m going to call you on the phone and let you know you’re rich. Because if it works, it means you’re going to be rich.” So I remember going to dinner that night and I told the guys, “Just so you guys know, we’re rich.” And they’re like, “What do you mean? We made $150,000.” I’m like, “No, no, no. The way people responded to that, I’ve never seen that in my life. We’re rich.” The response rate from that, I’ve never seen. Andrew: And then you went to webinar after webinar after webinar. Russell: On the flight home that day I’m texting everybody I’ve ever met. “I got a hot offer, this webinar crushed it. We just closed whatever percent of the room at Filsaime’s event. Who wants to do it?” And we started filling up the calendar. Andrew: And the idea was, and you told me you did 2 to 3 some days. And the idea was, they would sell somebody on a course, and then their members would then hear how your software and your funnel hacking technique would help up what they just bought and then they would sign up. You’re still excited, I can see it in your face. And then this thing took off. And then you started doing an event for your culture, your community, and this guy spoke, Tony Robbins. Russell: Oh yeah, there’s Tony. Andrew: One of the first ones. Was he at the very first one? Russell: No, he came to the third one, was the first one we had him come to. Andrew: Yeah? Why do an event? Why do your own live event? Russell: So we’ve done events in the past. I know events are good, but I’d sworn off them because the last event we did, I think we sold 3 or 400 tickets and less than 100 people showed up and I was so embarrassed. I was like, “We’ll never do events again.” And as soon as this, as soon as Clickfunnels launched and it was growing, everyone’s like, “We want to do a meet up. We should do an event.” All the customers kept asking. And against my, I didn’t really want to do it, but at the same time I was launching my book, and I had won a Ferrari in this affiliate contest so I was like, “What if we did an event and we had the Ferrari there and we gave it away and then we’re…” we had other ideas for giving away other cars and it became this big, exciting thing that eventually turned into an event. And that was the first Funnel Hacking Live event in Vegas, and we had about 600 people at that one that showed up. And that’s where it all kind of, it all started. Andrew: And it built how much, how many people are you up to now? Russell: Last year we had 3500 people and we’re on track to have about 5000 at this year’s event. Andrew: 5000? Yeah. Russell: Those aren’t free tickets. Each ticket’s $1000, so it’s…. Andrew: So how much is that in total revenue? Russell: From the event? Andrew: Yeah. Russell: So ticket sales, last year was $3 ½ million, this year will be over $5. But at the event we sell coaching so last year we made $13 million in coaching sales at the event as well. Andrew: Wow, would you come up here for a second, Dave? Do you guys know Dave? Yeah, everyone knows Dave. You know what’s amazing… {Audience catcalls} Andrew: That’s amazing. Dave: I don’t know who that is. Andrew: A catcall. I saw a video, you guys have this vlog now, a beautifully show vlog. You guys went to sales force’s conference, you’re looking at the booths and in the video, do you remember what you did as you saw the different booths? Dave: I think that one I went and asked what the prices for each of the booths were. Andrew: Yes, and then you multiplied. And he’s like, you’re not enjoying the event, you’re calculating ahead, how much. “10,000 that’s 100,000….” It’s like wow, right. You do this all the time? Dave: Yeah. It’s a lot of money in an event like that. Andrew: And you think, and if this was not your event, you would be doing the same calculation trying to figure out how much they brought in today. Wowee. Alright when you went to sales force did you calculate how much money they probably did from their event? Dave: We were doing that the whole time, absolutely. Andrew: You saw the building, you had to know… Dave: Oh my gosh. 61 stories. Andrew: Why? Why do you guys want to know that? Why does, how does that… I want to understand your drive as a company and I feel like this is a part of it. Figuring out how much money other people are making, using that for fuel somehow. Tell me. Dave: I think it actually goes back to Russell and his wrestling days. We had the experience of going to Chicago right after that, and super just exhausted. And it was one of those things where he literally landed, we walked down and we’re underneath the tarmac and all the sudden Russell goes from just being totally exhausted to a massive state change. Where he’s literally right back where he was with his dad and he and his dad are walking that same path to go to, I think it was Nationals. And I saw Dan Usher, who was doing the filming, capturing that moment and it’s that type of a thing for Russell. Where all the sudden it’s the dream, where as soon as you see it, it can then happen. And Russell’s just been amazing at modeling, and again the whole idea as far as just going at a rapid, rapid speed. I mean it’s “Ready, fire, aim.” Andrew: It’s not you gawking at the sales force, what’s the sales force event called? Dave: Dream Force. Andrew: Dream force. It’s not you gawking at how well Sales Force’s event, Dream Force is doing, it’s not you having envy or just curiosity, it’s you saying, it’s possible. This is us. That’s it. Dave: It’s totally possible. Andrew: It’s totally possible. We could get there. And when you’re sizing up the building, you even found out how much the building cost. Who does that? Most people go, “Where’s the bathroom?” How much does the building cost? Dave: There’s a number. Andrew: It’s you saying, “We could maybe have that.” Dave: We can have that, yeah. Andrew: Got it. And so let’s go back a little bit. I asked you about Traffic and Conversion because the very first Traffic and Conversion conference you went to, you guys were nobodies. Nobody came and saw you. Dave: We were put out in North 40 pasture, way, way far away. Andrew: And some people would say, “One day I’ll get there.” you told Russell, “Today we’re going to get there.” Dave: Well Russell wanted, he was speaking and so whenever you’re speaking at an event, it’s important that you fill a room, like this. And there’s nothing worse than having an event and having no one show up. It’s just the worst feeling in the world. And so he’s like, “All we need, I gotta find some way of getting people into the event. I wish we had like some girls who could just hand out t-shirts or do something.” And I was like, we’re in San Diego, that’s like my home town. Russell: Dave’s like, “How many do you need?” That’s all he said. Dave: It’s just a number. It comes down to a number. How many do you want? So we ended up having, within an hour or so we had 5 girls there who were more than happy to dance around and give out t-shirts and fill the room. Andrew: and the room was full? Dave: Packed. Andrew: Packed. And why wouldn’t you say, “One day, the next time we come to Traffic and Conversion, the tenth time we’re going to do it.” Why did it have to be right there? Dave: It’s always now.   Andrew: It’s always now. Dave: It’s always now. Andrew: It’s always now. It’s never going to be the next funnel, it’s never going to be the next product launch. I’m going to do whatever we can right now, and the next one, and the next one. That’s it. That’s who you are. Dave: That’s how it works. Andrew: And now you’re a partner in the business. $83 million so far this year, you got a piece of that. Dave: Yes. Do i? Russell: Yeah. Dave: Just checking. Andrew: Do you get to take profits home now? Dave: We do. Andrew: You do, you personally do? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Are you a millionaire? Dave: Things are really good. Andrew: Millionaire good from Clickfunnels? Dave: yes. Andrew: Really? Dave: Yes. Andrew: Wow. And you’re another one. I was driving and I said, “What was it about Russell that made you work for him? What was it?” and you said, “I’ve never seen anyone implement like him.” Give me an example of early days, something that he implemented…you know what, forget that, let’s not go back to Russell. As a team, you guys have gotten really good at implementing. Give me an example of one thing that you’re just stunned by, we did it, it came out of nowhere, we could have been distracted by funnel software, we could have distracted by the next book, we did this thing, what is it? Dave: You’re here on this stage with JP, and this was what 6 weeks ago? Andrew: and this whole thing just came from an idea I heard. You use Voxer. Why do you use Voxer? Russell: I don’t know. Andrew: Because you like to talk into it. Russell: Yeah, and you can fast forward, you can listen at 4x speed, you can forward the messages to people really easily, it’s awesome. Andrew: and it’s just train of thought, boom, here’s what I think we’re going to…No, it’s not that. I heard it’s, “I have a secret project…” Russell: “I’ll tell you guys about it later.” And they all start freaking out. “Tell us now.” Andrew: “Secret project. I don’t know what it, it’s going to be exciting.” They don’t know what it is, going to be excited. Russell: Do you know how it started, this one? I was cleaning my wrestling room listening to you, and you were, I don’t know whose event it was, but you were at the campfire, it sounded like. And you were doing something like this and I was like, I want my own campfire chat to tell our story. And then I was like, “Dave, we should do it.” And now we’re here. So thanks for coming to our campfire…. Dave: That’s how it happens. Andrew: And that’s exciting to this day. Alright, thank you. Give him a big round, thank you so much. You know what, I didn’t mean for this to come onstage, but I’m glad that it is. This made you laugh when you accidentally saw it earlier too. Why is this making you laugh? What is it? Russell: So we’re not shy about our competitors, even when they’re our friends. So one of the companies we’re crossing out is his. That’s why it’s funny. Andrew: It’s one of my companies. That’s Bot Academy there. It’s also a company I invest in, that octopus is ManyChat, I’ve been a very big angel investor and supporter of theirs. I’m not at all insulted by that, I’m curious about it. You guys come across as such nice, happy-go-lucky guys. Dave asked me if I want water, I said “Dave I can’t have you give me any more things. I feel uncomfortable, I’m a New Yorker. Punch me, please.” So he goes, “Okay, one more thing. I’m going to give you socks.” So he gave me socks. Really, but still, you have murder in your eyes sometimes. You’re crossing out everybody. This is part of your culture, why? Russell: It comes back, for me its wrestling. When I was wrestling it was not, I don’t know, there’s different mentalities right. And I did a podcast on this one time and I think I offended some people, so I apologize in advance, but if you’re in a band and everyone gets together and you play together and you harmonize, it’s beautiful. When you’re a wrestler you don’t do that. You know, you walk in everyday and you’re like, those are the two guys I have to beat to be varsity. And then after you do that, you walk in and you’re like, “Okay who are the people I have to beat to be in the region champ, and then the state champ, and then the national champ?” So for me, my entire 15 years of my life, all my focus was like, who’s the next person on the rung that I have to beat? And it’s studying and learning about them and figuring their moves and figuring out what they’re good at, what they’re bad at so we can beat them. Then we beat them and go to the next thing, and next thing, and next thing. So it was never negative for me, it was competition. Half the guys were my friends and they were doing the same thing to me, we were doing the same thing to them. I come from a hyper competitive world where that’s everything we do. And I feel bad now, because in business, a lot of people we compete against aren’t competitive and I forget that sometimes, and some people don’t appreciate it. But that’s the drive. It’s just like, who do we, if I don’t have someone to, if there’s not someone we’re driving towards, there’s not a point for me. Andrew: And even if they’re, even if I was hurt, “I accept it, I’m sorry you’re hurt, Andrew. I still care and love you. We’re going to crush you.” That’s still there. Russell: And I had someone, so obviously InfusionSoft was one of our people we were targeting for a long, long time and I had a call with Clayton and someone on his team asked me, “Why do you hate Infusion Soft so much?” I was like, “I don’t, you don’t understand. I don’t hate, I love Infusion Soft. I’m grateful for it. I’m grateful for Lead Pages, I’m grateful for….” I told them, have you guys seen the Dark Knight, my favorite movie of all time? And it’s the part where Batman and the Joker are there and Batman is like, asks the Joker, “Why are you trying to kill me?” And the Joker starts laughing and he’s like, “I’m not trying to kill you. The reason I do this is because of you. If I didn’t have you, there’s no purpose behind it.” So for me it’s like, if I don’t have someone to compete against, why are we playing the game? So for me, that’s why we’re always looking… Andrew: It’s not enough to say, it’s not enough to just say “we’re playing the game because we want to help the next entrepreneur, or the next person who’s sick and needs to create…” no, it’s not. Russell: That’s a big part of it, but like, there’s something… Andrew: Yeah, but it’s not enough, it’s gotta be both. Russell: My whole life there’s, the competition is what drives me for sure. Andrew: And just like you’re wrestling with someone, trying to beat them, but you don’t hate them. You’re not going to their house and break it down… Russell: Everyone we wrestled, we were friends afterwards. We were on the same Freestyle and Greco teams later in the season, but during, when we’re competing, we’re competing and everyone’s going all at it. Andrew: Everyone’s going all at it. That’s an interesting way to end it. How much more time do we have? How much more time do we have? I’m going to keep going. Can I get you to come up here John, because I gotta get you to explain something to me? So I told you, I was online the other day, yeah give him a big round. I was online the other day, I don’t even know what I clicked, I clicked something and then I saw that Russell’s a great webinar person, everyone keeps telling me. Well, alright, I gotta find out how he does it. So I click over, “Alright, just give your email address and you can find out how..” Alright, I’ll give my email address to find out how he became such a great webinar presenter. “Just give a credit card. It’s only $4.95, so it comes in the mail.” It comes in the mail, that’s pretty cool. Nothing comes in the mail anymore. Here’s my credit card. It goes, “Alright, it’s going to mail it out. Would you also like to learn how to use these slides? $400.” I go, no! I’m done. Russell: Welcome to the funnel. Andrew: Welcome to the funnel. I’m done. But I’m going to put in Evernote a link to this page so I don’t lose it so I can come back. I swear. I did it. And this is my receipt for $4.95. Don’t you ever feel like, we’re beyond this? We’re in the software space now, we’re competing with Dropbox, we’re not competing with Joe Schmoe and his ebook. And you’re the guy who sold the, who bought the ad that got me. John: I know. Andrew: I asked you that. Do you ever feel a little embarrassed, “We’re still in the info market space.”? John: No, I think it’s the essence of what we do, of what Russell does. We love education. We love teaching people. I mean, the software is like the backend, but we’re not software people. I mean, we sell software, but we teach people. All these people here and all the people at all of our events, they just want to learn how to do it better. Andrew: I don’t believe it. John: Okay. Andrew: I believe in him. I don’t believe in you. I believe that for you it’s the numbers. Here’s why I don’t believe it. I’m looking in your eyes and you’re like, “I’m giving the script. I’m good, I’m doing the script.” I see it in your eyes, but when I was talking to you earlier, no offense. This is why he does what he does. When I was talking to you earlier, you told me about the numbers, the conversion, how we get you in the sales funnel, how we actually can then modify…That’s the exciting part. Don’t be insulted by the fact that I said it. Know that we have marketers here, they’re going to love you for being open about it. What’s going on here? What’s going on, keeping you in this space? John: Okay, from my perspective. Okay so, initially it was self liquidation on the front, which is what I was telling you. It was the fact that we were bootstrapped, we didn’t have money to just like throw out there. We had to make sure we were earning enough money to cover our ads. And Russell had all the trust in the world in me, I don’t know why he did, but he did. And he’s just like, “Spend money, and try to make it self-liquidate.” I’m like, “Okay.” So we just had to spend money and hope that we got enough back to keep spending money. Andrew: And self-liquidate means buy an ad today and make sure that we make money from that ad right away and then software. John: Yeah. Andrew: And then you told, and then software’s going to pay overtime, that’s our legacy, that’s our thing. And you told me software sucks for selling. Why? John: Software sucks, yeah. Andrew: Why? Everyone who’s in info, everyone’s who in education says, “I wish I was a software guy. Software is eating the world, they’re getting all the risk back.” I walked through San Francisco; they think anyone who doesn’t have software in their veins is a sucker. John: I asked the same thing to myself, you know. I was running ads, I’m like why can’t I just run ads straight to the offer? Why do I have go to these info products? I want to get on the soft…. And then I was like, I feel like it’s kind of like marriage. Like it’s a big thing to say like, “You probably already built websites, but come over, drop everything you’re doing and come over here and build websites over here on our thing.” And it’s like, that’s a hard pull. But “Hey, you want to build webinars? Here’s a little thing for $5 to build webinars.” Now you’re in our world, now we can talk to you, now you can trust us, now we can get you over there. Andrew: Got it. Okay, and if that’s what it takes to get people in your world, you’re going to accept it, you’re not going to feel too good for that, you’re just going to do it and grow it and grow it. John: Yeah. Andrew: What’s your ad budget now? See now you’re eyes are lighting up. Now I tapped into it. John: We spend about half a million a month. Andrew: half a million a month! John: Yeah. Don’t tell the accountant. Andrew: Do you guys pay with a credit card? Do you have a lot of miles? John: Yeah, we do. In fact…. Andrew: You do! How many miles? John: In fact, the accountant came into my office the other day and said, “Next time you buy a ticket, use the miles.” Andrew: Are they with Delta, because I think you guys flew me out with Delta. John: Yeah, American Express is where we’re spending all our money. Andrew: Wow. And you’re a partner too? John: Yeah. Andrew: Wow, congratulations. John: Thank you. Andrew: I don’t know you well enough to ask you if you’re a millionaire, I’m just going to say congratulations. Give him a big round. John: Thank you. Andrew: Wow, you know what, I actually was going to ask the videographers to come up here. I wrote their names down, I got the whole thing and I realized I shouldn’t interrupt them, because they’re shooting video. But I asked them, why are you, they had this career where they were flying all over the world shooting videos for their YouTube channel. I’m sorry, I forgot their name, and I don’t want to leave them out. Russell: Dan and Blake. Andrew: They were shooting YouTube videos, they were doing videos for other people. I said, “Why are you now giving it up and just working for Clickfunnels all the time? More importantly, why are you so excited about it?” And they said, “You know, it’s the way that we work with Russell.” And I said, do you remember the first time that you invited them out to shoot something? What was it? Russell: It was the very first Funnel Hacking Live we ever had, and probably 2 weeks prior to that, one of our friends had an event and Dan had captured the footage, and he showed me the videos. “Did you check out my Ven Video?” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that was amazing.” And I said “Who did it?” and he told me. So I emailed Dan and I was like, “Hey, can you come do that for Funnel Hacking Live?” And he’s like, “What’s Funnel Hacking Live?” So I kind of told him, and he’s like, “Sure.” And it was like 2 weeks later and he’s like, “What’s the direction?” and I was like, “I don’t know, just bring the magic man. Whatever you did there, do that here.” And that’s kind of been his calling card since. He just comes and does stuff. Andrew: Bring the magic. He wants to have those words painted on the Toronto office you guys are starting. Literally, because he says you say that all the time. And the idea is, I want to understand how you hire. The idea is, “I’m going to find people who do good work, and I’m going to let them do it.” What happens if they wouldn’t have done it your way? What happens if it would have gone a different direction? Russell: I see your question, and I’m not perfect. So I’m going to caveat that by, some of the guys on my team know that I’m kind of, especially on the design and funnel stuff, I’m more picky on that, because I’m so into that and I love it. But what I’ve found is when you hire amazing people like Todd for example, doing Clickfunnels. The times I tried to do Clickfunnels prior, build it was like, me and I’m telling developers, “here’s what to do and how to do it.” And like there’s always some loss in communication. With Todd, he’s like, “I know exactly what I would build because I want this product too.” And then he just built it and he showed me stuff. And I’m like, “That’s a good idea.” And he’s like, “I did this too.” And I’m like, “That’s a good idea.” And it’s so much easier that way. So when you find the right people, it’s not you giving them ideas, it’s them coming to you with the ideas. And you’re like, “that is a good idea. Go do it.” And it just makes, takes all the pressure off your back. So for us, and it’s been fun because I look at, man, the last 15 years of all those different websites and the ups and the downs, the best people have always stuck. So we’ve got 15 years of getting the cream of the crop. It’s kind of like, I’m a super hero nerd, but it’s like the Avengers, at the end of, when Clickfunnels came about we had this Avenger team of people. And we’re like, now we’ve put in our dues, now it’s time to use all of our super powers to do this thing, and it all kind of came together. Andrew: Build it and build it up. And then as you were building it up, you then went to Sales Force. You guys invited me, you said, “Hey Andrew, we’re in San Francisco, you’re home town. Do you want to come out?” I said, “I’m going to be with the family.” And you said, “Good. Being with the family is better than hanging out with us.” But I still said, “What are you guys doing in San Francisco at Sales Force?” Because sales people don’t need landing pages, yet you guys will probably find a way for them to need it. Then I saw this, this is the last video that I’ve got. There’s no audio on it. I want you guys to look at their faces as they’re looking up at these buildings, walking through the Sales Force office. Look, they’re getting on the motorcycles in the lobby. They’re looking all around like, “Oh gee.” Counting the buildings that are Sales Force labeled. Look at that! What are they doing? Not believing that this is even possible. And then just stopping and going, this is dream force. This is your dream. What did you get out of going to sales Force’s event and seeing their office? Russell: Honestly, prior to Sales Force, I was kind of going through a weird funk in my business, because it was like, again there was the goals. So it was like, okay, we’re going to do a million bucks, and then we did that. And then it’s like, let’s make 10 million a year. And then 50, and then this year we’ll hit a hundred. And like, what’s the next goal?  A billion, because a hundred million, 2 hundred million is not that big of a difference. And it was just kind of like, what’s the point, what’s the purpose? We’ve grown as big as any company that I know. And then last year, Dave and Ryan had gone out there and they were telling me stories like, “There’s 170,000 businesses here.” And they were telling me all these things, and it sounded cool, but I didn’t, and they were going crazy. You have to see this so you can believe it. But there’s something about the energy about seeing something that makes it real. So this year I was like, I want to go and I want to see Benioff speak. I want to see the thing, the towers, I want to just understand it, because if I understand it, cool. Now we can reverse engineer and figure out how we can do it. So for me it was just like seeing it. I think in anything, any, as entrepreneurs too, if you’re people believe that you can do it, you’ll do it. If you believe you can lose weight, you’ll lose 3eight. If you believe you can grow a company, and I don’t feel like I believed that the next level was possible for us until I saw it. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is not ridiculous. Benioff’s not, none of these guys are any smarter than any of us. It’s just like, they figured out the path. It was like, okay let’s look at the path. And then let’s look at it and now we can figure out our path. Andrew: And seeing it in person did that for you? Russell: Oh yeah. It makes it tangible, it makes it like, it’s like your physiology feels it, versus reading a book about it or hearing about it. It’s like you see it and you experience it, and it’s like it’s tangible. Andrew: I told you, I asked people before they came in here, “What are you looking for?” and a few of them frustrated me because they said, “I just wanted to see Russell. I just want to see the event.” I go, “Give me something I could ask a question about.” But I think they were looking for the same thing that you got out of there. And I know they got it. I’m going to ask them to come up here and ask some questions, and I want to know about the future of Clickfunnels, but first I’ve got to just acknowledge that, that we are here to just kind of pick up on that energy. That energy that got you to pick yourself back up when anyone else would have said, “I’m a failure of a husband, I can’t do this.” Go back. The tension that came from failing and almost going to jail as you said, from failing and succeeding, and failing again. And still, that is inspiring to see. I want to give the whole Clickfunnels family a big round of applause, please everybody.

I’m awful when it comes to building websites and any other tech wizardry. The learning curve is steep, and things can get pretty complicated, quickly. But when someone introduced me to the drag and drop funnel software, ClickFunnels, I was hooked immediately. I bought everything they had to offer and began building and refining my funnels until they worked! Today I have Chief Revenue and Business Development Officer Dave Woodward of ClickFunnels joining me to talk about their 6 figure success story, and what went into the massive and sustained results they’ve been getting. We talk about company culture, paid advertising and of course we get into some juicy conversation about funnels as well.   In This Episode What is the best way to approach funnel building? Why competition isn’t really a concern for Clickfunnels Why company and product culture matters so much Cutting your teeth on a practice business Who has a longer attention span, humans or goldfish? What is the most fun funnel to launch?   “I’ve never had more fun in my life doing anything” - Dave “You’re only one funnel away” - Dave “Where are we going? How do we want to effectively outclass the market?” - Jess “There’s nothing wrong with getting started and learning it” - Dave “It’s all about evolution” - Jess “We are the number one consumer of our products” - Dave “Not everybody's opening just email” - Dave “I believe a lot of people feel like they always have to start with the lowest price point first” - Dave “It’s about reverse engineering the process. Make life easy for yourself” - Jess “There’s other people who have gone before me who have already had success” - Dave   More ClickFunnels   The Dotties! https://smartleaderssell.com/the-dotties/   More Jess! https://smartleaderssell.com/the-dotties/ http://bit.ly/SLSGroup https://jessicalorimer.com/supersize-your-sales https://jessicalorimer.com/list-building-legend Content DisclaimerThe information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this article, video or audio are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article, video or audio. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article, video or audio. Jessica Lorimer disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article, video or audio.Disclaimer: Some of these links are for products and services offered by the podcast creator

We discuss the differences between theory and practice in teacher development and the most effective was to learn from theory and learn from practice.Ross Thorburn: Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast. No Tracy today, but instead we have Mr. Dave Weller.Dave Weller: Hurrah! I have to say hurrah. It's become my tradition.Ross: Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on the podcast. What do you want to talk about today?Dave: One thing I've been thinking of a lot recently is the difference between theory versus practice in teacher development. There's that classic quote from that baseball dude, Yogi Berra, saying that, "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice."In practice there is...[laughter]Dave: ... which is really nice. It got me thinking about have I used theory or practice? Which one have I used more to develop myself over the years? What is the difference? Why are they different? Is there a better one or is there a worse one? What are the best methods of learning theory or the best methods of learning through practice?Ross: Awesome. The three questions we're going to try and answer today are, what's the difference between theory and practice in teacher development?Dave: How teachers can learn from theory?Ross: And three, how can teachers learn from practice?What's the Difference Between Theory and Practice in Teacher Development?Ross: Again, I remember when I was doing my diploma a few years ago and reading about what teacher development should be, like reflection, team teaching, peer observations and all this kind of bottom‑up stuff. What I found in the place that I was working was it was a complete opposite. It was just top‑down observations and teacher workshops.Largely, pretty much everywhere I've worked, pretty much everywhere I've heard about, there is that huge difference between the theory and practice in teacher development. Why do you think that happens?Dave: It's just the different management style. Again, essentially, they're doing the same thing. They're recognizing patterns in what they've seen work before in teacher development. That's been quite charitable. It could just be that's the way they've always done it. No one's actually bothered to put in the thought or the time to test that out, to see if it actually is true.Ross: Another thing with those things is it's probably what is easiest to implement. I've found before, a previous company trying to implement much more bottom‑up ideas for teacher training. It just seemed to be too abstract for senior managers to understand.For them, it was like bums on seats in the training. They could see that. They could understand what it was, but if it was a teacher peer observing someone else or doing an online teacher training course, those senior managers couldn't see that and couldn't understand what it was.Dave: My personal belief is that if you have a bunch of newer teachers, say, first and second‑year teachers, normally top‑down is more effective because they don't know what they need to develop so they need that quite directive input. Go and read a chapter on this, teaching listening, or teach how to do an error correction.OK, great. Then they can try that again, that side that we talked about earlier. Once you get to those teachers, the majority of teachers in your school, they've been there a while, they're very self‑directive. They end up resenting that top‑down approach. They want to take things new directions.Their passions or their interests in teaching naturally develop from their time in the classroom. In which case, those are the guys you give free rein to go, "You develop, however, you like. Just come in to chat with me once a month about what you've been doing. We can bounce ideas off of each other. Of course, in the meantime, I'm here for input and ideas."Ross: That's interesting because you're almost dividing their quality control and development as two separate things. That's often one of the problems that we have with observations in teacher development. We lump these two different things into the same category.From a business point of view as a school, you have your students and you've promised them a minimum level of service from these teachers. If you're the manager and you're responsible for quality control, then your job is to get teachers to be able to deliver that quality of service. That's not optional.If you work there, your job is to get to that level. My job as a manager is to make sure that you get to that level. Once you're beyond that, it's a lot more open‑ended, isn't it? That's when it can open up.Dave: Exactly.Ross: Who knows where that could lead to? It could lead to you doing a podcast regularly. What have you learned from doing this one, in your development? Has it been helpful for you?Dave: Yes, absolutely. Incredibly.Ross: In some ways it means I have more conversations like this one. Maybe, you and I would normally talk about this in a bar, but I don't think we go down the rabbit hole quite as much as we do when there's a microphone recording. You're right. You wouldn't put this in someone's action plan, would you? Record it and make a podcast.Dave: [laughs] As iTunes gets flooded with podcasts in the next year.[laughter]How can teachers learn from theory?Ross: Let's talk about then how teachers can learn from theory.Dave: Sure. There's not as many ways as [inaudible 05:17] . I do think that some of these will overlap when we talk about how people learn from practice, as well. Again, it's normally seen as a slightly more buoyant one. It's typical, pick up a book, or read this, read that.I also think learning from theories is something as simple as talking to your colleagues after work, when you go for dinner with them after a long day or you find out what they worked. Find out if there's an idea behind it, or it was just something they were trying.It doesn't need to be an established theory. It can be, "Oh, I tried this." "Why did you try that?" "I don't really know." For engagement purposes, I think that the delivery channel is really important.Oftentimes, authors can be quite dry. That's a bit of a barrier to people, to picking up a book and reading through it. Whereas, if you have a YouTube channel, like a short snippet video or a podcast even, where you can multitask while you're doing that almost. You commute to work, you can get three good ideas to try in class that day.Ross: There's something very interesting about how so much of our profession is about grading your language, so that you can have people who are learning a language understand you.There seems to be a massive disconnect between our ability to do that as teachers and authors' abilities to put across ideas about teaching in language that's simple and accessible to all the English teachers in the world. Especially, when you take into the fact that most of the English teachers out there in the world are not native speakers.To quote or paraphrase Charles Bukowski, he says, "An academic is someone who takes a simple idea and makes it complicated. An artist is someone who takes a complicated idea and makes it simple." We need to be a lot better in this industry of becoming artists, as opposed to academics.Dave: I would fully agree, absolutely. I've read those same books, and guilty of reading through a page and stopping. I have no idea what I've just read.Ross: Yes, what did that say? [laughs]Dave: That's actually something I try and do on my website, barefootteflteacher.com. When I sat down to write it, I thought, "Well, who am I writing all this for?" I thought, I'm going to write this for first or third‑year teachers. Therefore, I'll keep the language simpler.I'm not going to name‑drop every single concept or idea. I'm going to try and break it down, and, basically, explain it like I'm five, using simple words, diagrams, visual aids. It's something I hope you're doing very well with this podcast as well, actually, opening these ideas, concepts, and theories to a wider world as well.Ross: What do you do running the Diploma in TESOL to help teachers apply theories more easily?Dave: Well, that's something that, hopefully, the tutorials will take care of because I always ask the students on the course to not think of it in modules. We have 10 modules. I say, "Don't think of it like a module." You start learning and then finish, then start something else and finish it. I say, "Try and think of as layers or threads running throughout."As I mentioned, we do a teacher test to start with. We do a video lesson which is observed. We pull out several points to work on based on the examination criteria, "That's OK. Pick one lesson a week. That's your experimental class. Try one of these. Do a bit of research on that aspect."Say it's error correction, learn all the different types, where the pros and cons to using that, and test it out. That will carry on throughout the rest of the course with all the other criteria.Ross: Of course, with that Dave, anyone could do that, right? You don't have to be on a teacher training course to do that.Dave: Shhh! [laughs]Ross: You could even film your own class, observe it, and figure out what things you're bad at, and you could do all those things yourself. I love that idea, by the way, of having an experimental class. I think that's such a cool idea. What do you think?Dave: The learners aren't quite so happy about that. [laughs]Ross: What are the ethics of it? Actually, I listened to a podcast the other day. They were talking about how, in Finland, they wanted to run an experiment on universal basic income.They had to change the Constitution because the Constitution says everyone gets treated equally. As soon as you run an experiment, you're no longer treating people equally. We can play that quote for you.Man 1: All the constitutions of democratic countries in the world, they say that you have to treat people equally.Man 2: By definition, if you're running experiments, you're not treating people equally...Ross: ...because they, the people who are part of the experiments, are not being treated equally.Dave: The ethics of it, as long as you're not doing something completely bonkers, doing something where it doesn't have much value, it's, in the long‑term, benefit for those learners in your class.Otherwise, every time you get a new teacher you're doing the ethic...You shouldn't let them teach until they're a wonderful teacher, because every teacher is constantly learning.How can teachers learn from practice?Ross: Let's talk about learning from practice.Dave: Sure. This is the one that everyone naturally does [laughs] because you have no choice. When you're a new teacher, it's survival mode. You end up, hopefully, just responding to the learners. You try and carry out your lesson plan.When the class finishes and the adrenaline [laughs] gets out of your system, you can hopefully reflect and go, "What went well and what didn't go well?" You do a little bit more of what did go well and a little bit less of what didn't. Over time, you learn from practice.After that survival period of, maybe, three to six months, you can start thinking a little bit more objectivity about what you're doing and spot the patterns. In the meantime, I'm sure most people have sympathetic colleagues that you can rush into the classroom at break time and go, "Ahh! Help."[laughter]Dave: They go, "Try this, try that." You get lots of useful suggestions, but I think there's no substitute from practice except to keep practicing, keep trying new things.Ross: There's a huge danger with that, though. I'll give you an example. I did this as well, in my first year. A colleague was recently telling me about this idea that you start off teaching and everyone has problems with managing students' behavior.For a lot of people, the thing that they do is they go, "OK, I'm going to be angry. I'm going to be there's going to be really strong discipline. There's going to be lots of punishment in my class." Their practice leads them down this road, which for me is really going in completely the wrong direction from what the theory would actually tell you to do.There is obviously a danger or you could learn, for example, I don't know. I tried giving instructions in English. I find that the students couldn't understand. What I learned from that is I'm going to give all instructions for all activities in the students' first language. Have you seen that?Dave: I have, and I would argue, that's just a growing stage. Hopefully, people don't become fossilized in that theory. If you continue to develop, you will discover that that does not work for a long time, or there are better ways to approach it. As a developmental stage, we've got no problem with that.Obviously, if that works better than something they were doing previously, where they had simply no control in the classroom, it was a riot. They went in a little bit too strict, but the students were able to sit down and learn something as a result. That's still better than the first thing.We can't expect people to become perfect immediately. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to learn bad theories. I remember giving a workshop on learning styles.[laughter]Dave: Along the way, you will make mistakes. You will learn incorrect theories or theories that have become outdated. They do stick in your mind.Talking the talk and walking the walkDave: I still think there's this idea about theoretical knowledge, which you have in your head. It's not being applied. Then you have this huge body of tacit knowledge, or the knowledge you gained through experience in the classroom. I really feel that's more valuable, that idea of when you speak to someone, they can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk.Ross: I almost think it's surprising that we find that surprising, like if you take a different context...Dave: I'm surprised you think that way.Ross: [laughs] Say, you talk about football. You could be an expert on football and know so much about it. You could have watched thousands and thousands of games. You could be a commentator. You could be very, very respected. You could even be a manager, but you might not actually be able to kick a football.We, for some reason, assume in teaching the crossover between knowledge and skill is very, very small. Just by reading about something or being able to talk about something, you'll be able to apply that skill.Dave: In some cases, that's fine. The best boxers in the world have coaches who aren't the best boxers in the world, but they have the knack.Ross: The same as football, all these things.Dave: They have a knack of being able to pass on knowledge and break down technique and do that, which is fine, but they still, again, have a minimum level of that ability, as well.Ross: Dave, thanks very much for coming on. For anyone that's interested, where can they find you online?Dave: Thanks for having me, Ross. It's a pleasure as always. If you want to find out more, you can visit my blog at www.barefootteflteacher.com.Ross: Wonderful. Thanks again.Dave: Welcome.

KERI: Hey guys, it’s Keri TV, and we have a very special guest here today.  This is Dave White, who is a big real estate investor, and also happens to be my father.  So excited to have him here for our special episode.  We were talking about this when we were in Palm Desert last weekend, about proposition 10 and proposition 5 and what it means.  I said, hey dad, will you film an episode with me?  So here we are.  KERI: As you know, the mid-term elections are coming up on the sixth of November.  It’s really important to get out there and vote, of course, whatever your views are.  We thought it was important for us to share a little bit about what these propositions mean in regards to real estate.  For our clients, this is our PSA.  First of all, we have proposition 10, which is the repeal of the Costa-Hawkins rent control act.  That is one of the propositions among the ballot.  Dave, tell us a little bit about what that means and what that means to homeowners. DAVE: Well, Costa-Hawkins brought rent control in.  Rent control is not really what everybody thought it was supposed to be.  It’s supposed to help the housing prices.  It’s been proven that rent control doesn’t help that at all.  Now, with Costa-Hawkins, every property is now going to come under rent control.  Your single-family home, your condominium, and your townhome.  The other sad thing about this is, at the present time, with the current system we have, when you rent your property, if your property’s under rent control, you rent it out for 1200 a month, and the other units in the building might be renting out for 2000 a month, in the current system, if those people paying 1250 move out, we can now rent that unit for the 2200, or whatever. KERI: Market value. DAVE: Market value. KERI: Right. DAVE: When they get rid of Costa-Hawkins, they’re going to make it so that if those people move out of that unit paying 1250, the next person coming in only has to pay 1250 as well. KERI: What about people who can’t really afford to live in buildings like this?  They’d love to live in a place for 1250.  Wouldn’t that be considered a good thing? DAVE: Well, it would be a good thing if all the people who couldn’t afford it could get into those buildings.  What happens is the lucky few who do end up in one never move out of them.  Now, all of a sudden after ten, fifteen, or twenty years you show up and here’s the guy renting the unit or the girl pulling up in their nice Ferrari. KERI: [laugh] DAVE: It’s an actual fact.  It’s supposed to be for low-income people.  The system just doesn’t work as it is.  It’s sad.  The lack of housing is caused because of supply and demand.  When you’ve got more supply than demand, as in other states, where the vacancy factor’s fifteen percent, what happens there is the landlords are having to offer moving expenses or one month free to get people into their units.  But out here in California, where it’s probably four percent, there’s no need for landlords to offer anything and everybody’s squirming to get into the unit. KERI: What happens when there are people paying low rents the other units get pushed up even more in costs, because there’s nothing available to rent.  When these people stay in these units and they never move out, it stops the flow of inflation in society and values going up, because property owners don’t want to have buildings where people are paying low income, because it doesn’t increase their value.  They tend to become slum lords, because they want market value rates and market value renters in there. DAVE: The other thing that happens is if you can only get 1250 dollars a month for your unit, which should be getting 2200, then it’s not even worth leasing it out.  You’d probably take it off the market. KERI: That’s exactly what happens.  Yeah. DAVE: Values drop.  When the value drops, that means there’s less property tax coming in.  What happens to the streets and everything the city has to look after when there’s less money coming in? KERI: With these new laws going in, it’s actually going to cost the taxpayers more money because they’re paying for these new rules.  If property values are decreasing, the city’s going to lose money.  There’s actually less money going towards emergency services, schools, and it actually will not create the low-income housing that they’re saying that it will. DAVE: Back East, many years ago, they brought rent control in.  All the students decided they wanted to get low-income.  What happened?  All these students never moved out of the units.  All of a sudden, they decided, this doesn’t work.  They changed the rules and got rid of the rent control. Now all those people who have been there for years finally went and bought homes and moved out of the apartments. KERI: Yeah.  That’s another thing that’s so important.  It happens a lot here in Santa Monica.  Someone will be paying 800 or maybe 1200 for a one-bedroom or two-bedroom, or even 2200 for a two-bedroom near the beach, they don’t have motivation to move because they’re getting such a good deal.  Then what happens when ten, twenty, or thirty years go by, sure, they’ve been living with low-rent, they don’t own anything.  They haven’t built any equity.  They don’t have anything to show for themselves.  You could be in a place that has grown five hundred, seven fifty, in equity and have a great retirement or invest in other buildings that make you more money.  Isn’t the whole goal to one day be sipping margaritas on the beach?  Right dad? DAVE: Two years ago, I met a guy on a party on a boat. KERI: Oh. DAVE: That’s what you do, right, when you have real estate? KERI: That’s what you do. DAVE: Anyway, I talked to this guy and he said I’d like to buy something.  He was sixty-two years old.  I said to him, well, what do you own now?  He said, I don’t own anything.  Unfortunately, I got caught up by rent control. KERI: What did he say? DAVE: He said, I got tied up with rent control. KERI: Caught up with rent control, did you hear that?  Tell us more. DAVE: Because he thought he was on a great bargain because he was only paying a thousand dollars a month. KERI: Right. DAVE: For this unit in Santa Monica that everybody else was paying 3000 dollars a month for.  He said, I watched all my friends who couldn’t get into rent control go out and buy homes and he said, now, they’re all worth a lot more money than me because their homes have gone up in value. KERI: There’s nothing wrong with paying a low rent, of course.  But the long-term game is to make money, to invest, and to retire.  The short side of that vision is that rent control’s a good thing when in fact it decreases property values, it lessens the money going to the government, and it creates slum lords. DAVE: It creates a shortage. KERI: And a shortage. DAVE: Who is going to build more buildings when you can’t make money on them?  Because the other thing that we haven’t made a way yet, when or if Costa-Hawkins gets voted out, that means that now the government can come in and tell you how much you can rent your home out for, your unit.  They can decide what you get for it. KERI: So, you know how your relator tries to tell you what price you should rent one of your units or your houses?  Now, instead of listening to the advice, you’re going to get told.  Well, this is what you can rent it for and we don’t care what you think.  So, does that sound like a fun thing for anybody?  Probably not.  Of course, do your research, investigate everything you can about proposition 10, but when it comes to real estate and building equity and building wealth, which is what we’re proponents of, we’re saying vote no on proposition 10. DAVE: Hey, let’s imagine that prop 10 doesn’t pass, we’re going to go and buy another building! KERI: [cheer] Yay!  We’re going to buy a building.  To summarize, we vote no on proposition 10, because we want to keep our property values increasing, we want to keep the market stable with the right market value rents and we don’t want to increase our taxpayer dollars, do you?  Now, the other proposition we want to highlight that has to do with real estate and our clients, of course, is proposition 5.  This is super exciting because right now, as it exists, if you are 55 or older, you can take your tax basis with you one time for one move.  What this is going to do is allow people that are over 55, plus people who are disabled or victims of natural disasters to take their tax basis more than once and for any price point.  This is super exciting because of all the people that get stuck in their homes because they can’t afford another twenty grand a year on taxes.  Dave, tell us a little bit more about why you think we should vote yes on proposition 5. It’s yes, right?  Yes on 5? DAVE: Yes, it is. KERI: Okay, yes on 5. DAVE: Like 10 is bad for real estate, 5 is excellent for real estate. KERI: So good for real estate.  DAVE: It is. KERI: And old people. DAVE: Right. KERI: We like old people. DAVE: But remember one thing.  When you purchase your home for 200,000 and your property tax is below, they only go up one percent a year. KERI: I calculated a hundred grand.  1800. DAVE: Okay.  But the problem is when you go to buy a house that’s a million dollars, now your taxes are going to be way up there.  That’s what stops a lot of people from selling their homes.  Here’s the other thing that hurts the older people like me.  We can’t sell.  We’ve got this big house that’s got a pool and huge gardens, and we’re wasting all our money. KERI: Unused bedrooms. DAVE: Now, with prop 5, we can sell, move to a beautiful home on the beach, and only pay the low taxes.  The biggest change with this is, the way it is now, you can only do this once. KERI: Once. DAVE: You can move once and get the property tax saving.  The other big thing is, in the old way, if you sold your house for a million and you had to buy something, you could only go three percent above.  Now you can go and pay whatever you want for a house. KERI: Yeah. DAVE: You could pay two million, if you wanted to. KERI: Which is so great.  Yeah. DAVE: Well, the big thing is, most people, when they’re older, they’ve paid their houses off.  So, it’s all cash. KERI: All cash.  Cash, cash, money.  That’s the thing too.  They can take all that cash, buy something with cash, and then they only have a low property tax.  Say they bought their house for a hundred grand.  They’re selling it for a million or a million five.  They move into a cool condo on Ocean Avenue or a little house somewhere nearby.  They’re not paying anything monthly, which is the whole point, because they can’t afford it, and the property taxes don’t change.  Their lifestyle remains the same.  You get to have mom and dad around for raising the grandkids.  It’s also really great for people who are disabled, same thing.  They need to move into something that works for their disability, whether it’s one-level or smaller.  Then, the other factor is for people who are victims of natural disasters that happened this year.  Floods, fires. DAVE: Grandkids?  I’m excited to hear grandkids.  Grandkids, wow. KERI: Get excited dad. DAVE: Sounds great! KERI: Got to get married first.  Anyways.  Sh.  So, we know that proposition 5, a vote yes on proposition 5 will help even a lot of our clients who are trying to buy a property, and there’s more people that would sell if they could take their tax basis with them, and then these awesome young couples or young couples with babies could move into their houses, to their four and five bedrooms with pools.  So, overall, it will stimulate the economy, stimulate housing, open up inventory which we all know, we’ve had a shortage of inventory, right? DAVE: Right.  Let’s help these older people that worked all their lives to support the community they live in.  Let’s help them out, now that they’re old and retired and enjoy life. KERI: Yes!  And help the disabled and help the natural disaster victims.  Proposition 5!  Vote yes!  Again, if you have any questions about proposition 5 or proposition 10, do your research.  We always vote for real estate wealth and real estate economy and your wealth, and that is why we are giving these tips today on Keri TV. DAVE: Fantastic. KERI: Fantastic.  Thank you for joining me.  

Panel: Dave Kimura Eric Berry Nathan Hopkins David Richards Special Guest: Jason Swett In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panel talks with Jason Swett who is a host of the podcast show, Ruby Testing! Jason also teaches Rails testing at CodeWithJason.com. He currently resides in the Michigan area and works for Ben Franklin Labs. Check-out today’s episode where the panelists and the guest discuss testing topics. Show Topics: 0:00 – Sentry.IO – Advertisement! Check out the code: DEVCHAT @ Sentry.io. 1:07 – I am David Kimura and here is the panel! Tell us what is going on? 1:38 – Jason: I started my own podcast, and have been doing that for the past few months. That’s one thing. I started a new site with CodeWithJason.com. 2:04 – You released a course? 2:10 – Jason: Total flop and it doesn’t exist, but I am doing something else. 2:24 – I bet you learned a lot by creating the course? 2:34 – Jason: The endeavor of TEACHING it has helped me a lot. 2:50 – Tell us why we should drink the Koolaid? 3:02 – Jason: What IS testing? Good question. Whether is it is manual testing or automated testing. We might was well automate it. 3:25 – If we are testing our code what does that look like? 3:34 – Jason: Not sure what you mean, but I am doing tests at a fine grain vs. coarser grain. 4:00 – Show of hands who has...? 4:19 – What different tests are there? 4:20 – Jason: Good question. One term that one person uses is different to a different person. Let’s start with unit tests vs. integration tests. Jason dives into the similarities and differences between these 2 tests (see above). There are different tests, such as: featured tests, acceptance tests, etc. 5:45 – What tests are THE best? 5:50 – Jason: Good question. The kind of tests you are writing depends on what type of coverage you are going for. If I had a sign-up page for a user, I would... 7:36 – What anti-patterns are you seeing? What is your narrative in teaching people how to use them? 8:07 – Jason talks first about his background and his interaction with one of his colleagues. 8:58 – Question. 9:00 – Jason continues with his answers from 8:07. 9:32 – Jason: Feel free to chime-in. What have you done? 9:42 – I often ignore it until I feel bad and then I say: wait-a-minute I am a professional. Then I realize I ignored the problem because I was acting cowardly. 10:29 – For me it depends on the test that it is. One gem that I found is: RSpec RETRY. 11:16 – Jason: The test is flapping because of something is wrong with the database or something else. Since you asked about anti-patterns let’s talk about that! Rails and Angular are mentioned. 13:10 – Do you find that you back off of your unit testing when you are using integration? 13:22 – Jason: It depends on the context we are talking about. Jason talks about featured testing, model-level testing, and more. 13:58 – What is your view on using MOCKS or FAKES. What should we be doing there? 14:10 – Jason: Going to the Angular world I understand Mocks better than now. There was a parable that I think is applicable here about the young and the old fish. 16:23 – Jason continues talking about testing things in isolation. 16:36 – Question.  16:39 – I have been looking for an area to specialize in and I wrote an eBook. (Check out here to see the articles and books that Jason has authored.) Then I was looking around and I wanted to see what people’s issues are with Rails? They have a hard time with testing. I wanted to help them feel competent with it. 18:03 – In your course you have how to choose a framework. I know Ruby has several options on that front – how do you choose? 18:24 – Jason: There are 2 factors to consider. Jason tells us what those two factors are. Jason: Angular, React and Vue. 19:52 – Panelist: I had a conversation with a beginner and we were talking about the different tests. He said the DSL really appealed to him. The surface area of the AI made it approachable for him. 20:27 – Jason: I wished I had figured out DSL out a little better. Understanding the concept of a block. The IT is just a function and you can put parentheses in different areas and... 21:01 – That makes sense. Let’s revisit the Tweet you wrote. 21:35 – Jason: There are certain use cases where it makes sense. Where Gmail was the thing out there. At some point the Internet formed the opinion that... 22:39 – Old saying: Nobody gets fired for using Microsoft and then it was IBM. Nothing wrong with those things if that’s what you are trying to do. Sometimes we make decisions to not be criticized. We try to grab big frameworks and big codes so we are not criticized for. 23:48 – Jason: I think developers have this idea that OLD is OUTDATED. Not so. I think it’s mature, not necessarily outdated. I think it’s a pervasive idea. 24:31 – I think it suffers a bit when all the mind shares get lumped into one thing. The panelist continues... 24:53 – Jason: I don’t know if I like this analogy. 26:00 – I agree with that sentiment. It’s crazy that the complexity has become so pervasive. 26:18 – I think of SPAs as... 26:37 – Jason: Going back to the Tweet I wrote, I am pulling in JavaScript but I am preferring to sprinkle Java into Rails. 27:02 – Absolutely. I think that’s where we agree on. Late in 2017 we had the guest... “Use JavaScript sprinkles.” 27:49 – Panelist chimes-in. 28:37 – Jason: That make sense. Use your preexisting... I am afraid of committing to a single framework. I don’t have anything against JavaScript but I am afraid of using only one thing when something else becomes fashionable. 29:30 – Have you found that Java sparkle approach is easy to test? 29:38 – Jason: I think it’s easier. Client server architecture... 30:10 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 30:41 – Shout-out to the Rails team! What other testing frameworks are there? What if you are not the developer but you are the Quality Assurance (QA) person. They have been given the task of testing on the application. 31:30 – Jason: So someone who is not a developer and they want to test the application. I don’t want to get out of my role of expertise. I did talk to a QA engineer and I asked them: What do you do? All of his tests are manual. He does the same stuff as a Rails developer would do. 32:52 – Panelist talks about pseudo code. 34:07 – Jason: I am curious, Dave, about the non-programmer helping with tests what is the team structure? 34:23 – Dave: You will have one QA per three developers. 34:44 – Jason: If you have a QA person he is integrated within the team – that’s what has been the case for me. 35:02 – Dave: It’s a nice thing to have because we need to crank out some features and we have a good idea what is wrong with the app. We can go in there and see if our application is good, but they are combining different scenarios to do the unit tests and see what they are lacking. They are uncovering different problems that we hadn’t thought of. 36:07 – The organization has to have the right culture for that to work. 36:35 – If it’s a small team then it will help to see what everyone is doing – it’s that engagement level. If the team is too large then it could be a problem. 37:15 – Jason: Engagement between whom? 37:27 – Both. Panelist goes into detail about different engagement levels throughout the team. 38:10 – Jason: Yeah that’s a tough thing. 38:49 – It’s interesting to see the things that are being created. Testing seems to help that out. We are getting bugs in that area or se didn’t design it well there... We see that we need some flexibility and getting that input and having a way to solve the problems. 39:32 – Jason: Continuous deployment – let’s segue into this topic. 41:17 – Panelist: Do you have recommendations on how often we should be deploying in that system per day/week? 41:40 – Jason: We would deploy several times a day, which was great. The more the better because the more frequently you are deploying the fewer things will go wrong. 42:21 – More frequently the better and more people involved. 42:45 – Jason continues this conversation. 42:51 – Panelist: Continuous integration – any time you were say to forgo tests or being less rigid? 43:14 – Jason: I don’t test everything. I don’t write tests for things that have little risks. 43:56 – I think it is a good segue into how you write your code. If you write a code that is like spaghetti then it will be a mess. Making things easier to test. 44:48 – Jason: This is fresh in my mind because I am writing an app called Green Field. 46:32 – Uniqueness Validations, is mentioned by Jason. 47:00 – Anything else to add to testing a Rails application? 47:08 – Jason: Let’s talk about 2 things: walking skeleton and small stories. This book is a great resource for automated testing. Last point that I want to talk about is small stories: continues deployment and continuous delivery. If you make your stories smaller then you are making your stories crisply defined. Have some bullet points to make it really easy to answer the question. Answer the question: is this story done or not done? Someone should be able to run through the bullet points and answer that question. 50:02 – I am in favor of small stories, too. Makes you feel more productive, too. 50:14 – Work tends to lend itself to these types of stories and running a sprint. 51:22 – You don’t have to carry that burden when you go home. You might have too big of a chunk – it carries too much weight to it. 51:47 – Book the Phoenix Project. Work in progress is a bad thing. That makes sense. You want to have fewer balls in the air. 52:17 – Anything else? 52:22 – Jason: You can find me at: CodewithJason.com also Twitter!  52:45 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 1:01:50 – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Erlang Ruby Ruby Motion Ruby on Rails Angular Single Page Application (SPA) RSpec – Retry Ruby Testing Podcast The Feynman Technique Model Book: Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests (1st edition) Jason Swett’s Twitter Jason Swett’s LinkedIn Parable: Young Fish and Old Fish – What is Water? Jason’s articles and eBook Jason’s Website Sponsors: Sentry Get a Coder Job Course Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: David This is Water The Feynman Technique Model Nate Taking some time off Pry Test Eric Fake App Ruby Hack Conference Dave Brooks Shoes Jason The Food Lab Growing Object-Oriented Software

Panel: Dave Kimura Eric Berry Nathan Hopkins David Richards Special Guest: Jason Swett In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panel talks with Jason Swett who is a host of the podcast show, Ruby Testing! Jason also teaches Rails testing at CodeWithJason.com. He currently resides in the Michigan area and works for Ben Franklin Labs. Check-out today’s episode where the panelists and the guest discuss testing topics. Show Topics: 0:00 – Sentry.IO – Advertisement! Check out the code: DEVCHAT @ Sentry.io. 1:07 – I am David Kimura and here is the panel! Tell us what is going on? 1:38 – Jason: I started my own podcast, and have been doing that for the past few months. That’s one thing. I started a new site with CodeWithJason.com. 2:04 – You released a course? 2:10 – Jason: Total flop and it doesn’t exist, but I am doing something else. 2:24 – I bet you learned a lot by creating the course? 2:34 – Jason: The endeavor of TEACHING it has helped me a lot. 2:50 – Tell us why we should drink the Koolaid? 3:02 – Jason: What IS testing? Good question. Whether is it is manual testing or automated testing. We might was well automate it. 3:25 – If we are testing our code what does that look like? 3:34 – Jason: Not sure what you mean, but I am doing tests at a fine grain vs. coarser grain. 4:00 – Show of hands who has...? 4:19 – What different tests are there? 4:20 – Jason: Good question. One term that one person uses is different to a different person. Let’s start with unit tests vs. integration tests. Jason dives into the similarities and differences between these 2 tests (see above). There are different tests, such as: featured tests, acceptance tests, etc. 5:45 – What tests are THE best? 5:50 – Jason: Good question. The kind of tests you are writing depends on what type of coverage you are going for. If I had a sign-up page for a user, I would... 7:36 – What anti-patterns are you seeing? What is your narrative in teaching people how to use them? 8:07 – Jason talks first about his background and his interaction with one of his colleagues. 8:58 – Question. 9:00 – Jason continues with his answers from 8:07. 9:32 – Jason: Feel free to chime-in. What have you done? 9:42 – I often ignore it until I feel bad and then I say: wait-a-minute I am a professional. Then I realize I ignored the problem because I was acting cowardly. 10:29 – For me it depends on the test that it is. One gem that I found is: RSpec RETRY. 11:16 – Jason: The test is flapping because of something is wrong with the database or something else. Since you asked about anti-patterns let’s talk about that! Rails and Angular are mentioned. 13:10 – Do you find that you back off of your unit testing when you are using integration? 13:22 – Jason: It depends on the context we are talking about. Jason talks about featured testing, model-level testing, and more. 13:58 – What is your view on using MOCKS or FAKES. What should we be doing there? 14:10 – Jason: Going to the Angular world I understand Mocks better than now. There was a parable that I think is applicable here about the young and the old fish. 16:23 – Jason continues talking about testing things in isolation. 16:36 – Question.  16:39 – I have been looking for an area to specialize in and I wrote an eBook. (Check out here to see the articles and books that Jason has authored.) Then I was looking around and I wanted to see what people’s issues are with Rails? They have a hard time with testing. I wanted to help them feel competent with it. 18:03 – In your course you have how to choose a framework. I know Ruby has several options on that front – how do you choose? 18:24 – Jason: There are 2 factors to consider. Jason tells us what those two factors are. Jason: Angular, React and Vue. 19:52 – Panelist: I had a conversation with a beginner and we were talking about the different tests. He said the DSL really appealed to him. The surface area of the AI made it approachable for him. 20:27 – Jason: I wished I had figured out DSL out a little better. Understanding the concept of a block. The IT is just a function and you can put parentheses in different areas and... 21:01 – That makes sense. Let’s revisit the Tweet you wrote. 21:35 – Jason: There are certain use cases where it makes sense. Where Gmail was the thing out there. At some point the Internet formed the opinion that... 22:39 – Old saying: Nobody gets fired for using Microsoft and then it was IBM. Nothing wrong with those things if that’s what you are trying to do. Sometimes we make decisions to not be criticized. We try to grab big frameworks and big codes so we are not criticized for. 23:48 – Jason: I think developers have this idea that OLD is OUTDATED. Not so. I think it’s mature, not necessarily outdated. I think it’s a pervasive idea. 24:31 – I think it suffers a bit when all the mind shares get lumped into one thing. The panelist continues... 24:53 – Jason: I don’t know if I like this analogy. 26:00 – I agree with that sentiment. It’s crazy that the complexity has become so pervasive. 26:18 – I think of SPAs as... 26:37 – Jason: Going back to the Tweet I wrote, I am pulling in JavaScript but I am preferring to sprinkle Java into Rails. 27:02 – Absolutely. I think that’s where we agree on. Late in 2017 we had the guest... “Use JavaScript sprinkles.” 27:49 – Panelist chimes-in. 28:37 – Jason: That make sense. Use your preexisting... I am afraid of committing to a single framework. I don’t have anything against JavaScript but I am afraid of using only one thing when something else becomes fashionable. 29:30 – Have you found that Java sparkle approach is easy to test? 29:38 – Jason: I think it’s easier. Client server architecture... 30:10 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 30:41 – Shout-out to the Rails team! What other testing frameworks are there? What if you are not the developer but you are the Quality Assurance (QA) person. They have been given the task of testing on the application. 31:30 – Jason: So someone who is not a developer and they want to test the application. I don’t want to get out of my role of expertise. I did talk to a QA engineer and I asked them: What do you do? All of his tests are manual. He does the same stuff as a Rails developer would do. 32:52 – Panelist talks about pseudo code. 34:07 – Jason: I am curious, Dave, about the non-programmer helping with tests what is the team structure? 34:23 – Dave: You will have one QA per three developers. 34:44 – Jason: If you have a QA person he is integrated within the team – that’s what has been the case for me. 35:02 – Dave: It’s a nice thing to have because we need to crank out some features and we have a good idea what is wrong with the app. We can go in there and see if our application is good, but they are combining different scenarios to do the unit tests and see what they are lacking. They are uncovering different problems that we hadn’t thought of. 36:07 – The organization has to have the right culture for that to work. 36:35 – If it’s a small team then it will help to see what everyone is doing – it’s that engagement level. If the team is too large then it could be a problem. 37:15 – Jason: Engagement between whom? 37:27 – Both. Panelist goes into detail about different engagement levels throughout the team. 38:10 – Jason: Yeah that’s a tough thing. 38:49 – It’s interesting to see the things that are being created. Testing seems to help that out. We are getting bugs in that area or se didn’t design it well there... We see that we need some flexibility and getting that input and having a way to solve the problems. 39:32 – Jason: Continuous deployment – let’s segue into this topic. 41:17 – Panelist: Do you have recommendations on how often we should be deploying in that system per day/week? 41:40 – Jason: We would deploy several times a day, which was great. The more the better because the more frequently you are deploying the fewer things will go wrong. 42:21 – More frequently the better and more people involved. 42:45 – Jason continues this conversation. 42:51 – Panelist: Continuous integration – any time you were say to forgo tests or being less rigid? 43:14 – Jason: I don’t test everything. I don’t write tests for things that have little risks. 43:56 – I think it is a good segue into how you write your code. If you write a code that is like spaghetti then it will be a mess. Making things easier to test. 44:48 – Jason: This is fresh in my mind because I am writing an app called Green Field. 46:32 – Uniqueness Validations, is mentioned by Jason. 47:00 – Anything else to add to testing a Rails application? 47:08 – Jason: Let’s talk about 2 things: walking skeleton and small stories. This book is a great resource for automated testing. Last point that I want to talk about is small stories: continues deployment and continuous delivery. If you make your stories smaller then you are making your stories crisply defined. Have some bullet points to make it really easy to answer the question. Answer the question: is this story done or not done? Someone should be able to run through the bullet points and answer that question. 50:02 – I am in favor of small stories, too. Makes you feel more productive, too. 50:14 – Work tends to lend itself to these types of stories and running a sprint. 51:22 – You don’t have to carry that burden when you go home. You might have too big of a chunk – it carries too much weight to it. 51:47 – Book the Phoenix Project. Work in progress is a bad thing. That makes sense. You want to have fewer balls in the air. 52:17 – Anything else? 52:22 – Jason: You can find me at: CodewithJason.com also Twitter!  52:45 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 1:01:50 – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Erlang Ruby Ruby Motion Ruby on Rails Angular Single Page Application (SPA) RSpec – Retry Ruby Testing Podcast The Feynman Technique Model Book: Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests (1st edition) Jason Swett’s Twitter Jason Swett’s LinkedIn Parable: Young Fish and Old Fish – What is Water? Jason’s articles and eBook Jason’s Website Sponsors: Sentry Get a Coder Job Course Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: David This is Water The Feynman Technique Model Nate Taking some time off Pry Test Eric Fake App Ruby Hack Conference Dave Brooks Shoes Jason The Food Lab Growing Object-Oriented Software

Panel: Dave Kimura Eric Berry Nathan Hopkins David Richards Special Guest: Jason Swett In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panel talks with Jason Swett who is a host of the podcast show, Ruby Testing! Jason also teaches Rails testing at CodeWithJason.com. He currently resides in the Michigan area and works for Ben Franklin Labs. Check-out today’s episode where the panelists and the guest discuss testing topics. Show Topics: 0:00 – Sentry.IO – Advertisement! Check out the code: DEVCHAT @ Sentry.io. 1:07 – I am David Kimura and here is the panel! Tell us what is going on? 1:38 – Jason: I started my own podcast, and have been doing that for the past few months. That’s one thing. I started a new site with CodeWithJason.com. 2:04 – You released a course? 2:10 – Jason: Total flop and it doesn’t exist, but I am doing something else. 2:24 – I bet you learned a lot by creating the course? 2:34 – Jason: The endeavor of TEACHING it has helped me a lot. 2:50 – Tell us why we should drink the Koolaid? 3:02 – Jason: What IS testing? Good question. Whether is it is manual testing or automated testing. We might was well automate it. 3:25 – If we are testing our code what does that look like? 3:34 – Jason: Not sure what you mean, but I am doing tests at a fine grain vs. coarser grain. 4:00 – Show of hands who has...? 4:19 – What different tests are there? 4:20 – Jason: Good question. One term that one person uses is different to a different person. Let’s start with unit tests vs. integration tests. Jason dives into the similarities and differences between these 2 tests (see above). There are different tests, such as: featured tests, acceptance tests, etc. 5:45 – What tests are THE best? 5:50 – Jason: Good question. The kind of tests you are writing depends on what type of coverage you are going for. If I had a sign-up page for a user, I would... 7:36 – What anti-patterns are you seeing? What is your narrative in teaching people how to use them? 8:07 – Jason talks first about his background and his interaction with one of his colleagues. 8:58 – Question. 9:00 – Jason continues with his answers from 8:07. 9:32 – Jason: Feel free to chime-in. What have you done? 9:42 – I often ignore it until I feel bad and then I say: wait-a-minute I am a professional. Then I realize I ignored the problem because I was acting cowardly. 10:29 – For me it depends on the test that it is. One gem that I found is: RSpec RETRY. 11:16 – Jason: The test is flapping because of something is wrong with the database or something else. Since you asked about anti-patterns let’s talk about that! Rails and Angular are mentioned. 13:10 – Do you find that you back off of your unit testing when you are using integration? 13:22 – Jason: It depends on the context we are talking about. Jason talks about featured testing, model-level testing, and more. 13:58 – What is your view on using MOCKS or FAKES. What should we be doing there? 14:10 – Jason: Going to the Angular world I understand Mocks better than now. There was a parable that I think is applicable here about the young and the old fish. 16:23 – Jason continues talking about testing things in isolation. 16:36 – Question.  16:39 – I have been looking for an area to specialize in and I wrote an eBook. (Check out here to see the articles and books that Jason has authored.) Then I was looking around and I wanted to see what people’s issues are with Rails? They have a hard time with testing. I wanted to help them feel competent with it. 18:03 – In your course you have how to choose a framework. I know Ruby has several options on that front – how do you choose? 18:24 – Jason: There are 2 factors to consider. Jason tells us what those two factors are. Jason: Angular, React and Vue. 19:52 – Panelist: I had a conversation with a beginner and we were talking about the different tests. He said the DSL really appealed to him. The surface area of the AI made it approachable for him. 20:27 – Jason: I wished I had figured out DSL out a little better. Understanding the concept of a block. The IT is just a function and you can put parentheses in different areas and... 21:01 – That makes sense. Let’s revisit the Tweet you wrote. 21:35 – Jason: There are certain use cases where it makes sense. Where Gmail was the thing out there. At some point the Internet formed the opinion that... 22:39 – Old saying: Nobody gets fired for using Microsoft and then it was IBM. Nothing wrong with those things if that’s what you are trying to do. Sometimes we make decisions to not be criticized. We try to grab big frameworks and big codes so we are not criticized for. 23:48 – Jason: I think developers have this idea that OLD is OUTDATED. Not so. I think it’s mature, not necessarily outdated. I think it’s a pervasive idea. 24:31 – I think it suffers a bit when all the mind shares get lumped into one thing. The panelist continues... 24:53 – Jason: I don’t know if I like this analogy. 26:00 – I agree with that sentiment. It’s crazy that the complexity has become so pervasive. 26:18 – I think of SPAs as... 26:37 – Jason: Going back to the Tweet I wrote, I am pulling in JavaScript but I am preferring to sprinkle Java into Rails. 27:02 – Absolutely. I think that’s where we agree on. Late in 2017 we had the guest... “Use JavaScript sprinkles.” 27:49 – Panelist chimes-in. 28:37 – Jason: That make sense. Use your preexisting... I am afraid of committing to a single framework. I don’t have anything against JavaScript but I am afraid of using only one thing when something else becomes fashionable. 29:30 – Have you found that Java sparkle approach is easy to test? 29:38 – Jason: I think it’s easier. Client server architecture... 30:10 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 30:41 – Shout-out to the Rails team! What other testing frameworks are there? What if you are not the developer but you are the Quality Assurance (QA) person. They have been given the task of testing on the application. 31:30 – Jason: So someone who is not a developer and they want to test the application. I don’t want to get out of my role of expertise. I did talk to a QA engineer and I asked them: What do you do? All of his tests are manual. He does the same stuff as a Rails developer would do. 32:52 – Panelist talks about pseudo code. 34:07 – Jason: I am curious, Dave, about the non-programmer helping with tests what is the team structure? 34:23 – Dave: You will have one QA per three developers. 34:44 – Jason: If you have a QA person he is integrated within the team – that’s what has been the case for me. 35:02 – Dave: It’s a nice thing to have because we need to crank out some features and we have a good idea what is wrong with the app. We can go in there and see if our application is good, but they are combining different scenarios to do the unit tests and see what they are lacking. They are uncovering different problems that we hadn’t thought of. 36:07 – The organization has to have the right culture for that to work. 36:35 – If it’s a small team then it will help to see what everyone is doing – it’s that engagement level. If the team is too large then it could be a problem. 37:15 – Jason: Engagement between whom? 37:27 – Both. Panelist goes into detail about different engagement levels throughout the team. 38:10 – Jason: Yeah that’s a tough thing. 38:49 – It’s interesting to see the things that are being created. Testing seems to help that out. We are getting bugs in that area or se didn’t design it well there... We see that we need some flexibility and getting that input and having a way to solve the problems. 39:32 – Jason: Continuous deployment – let’s segue into this topic. 41:17 – Panelist: Do you have recommendations on how often we should be deploying in that system per day/week? 41:40 – Jason: We would deploy several times a day, which was great. The more the better because the more frequently you are deploying the fewer things will go wrong. 42:21 – More frequently the better and more people involved. 42:45 – Jason continues this conversation. 42:51 – Panelist: Continuous integration – any time you were say to forgo tests or being less rigid? 43:14 – Jason: I don’t test everything. I don’t write tests for things that have little risks. 43:56 – I think it is a good segue into how you write your code. If you write a code that is like spaghetti then it will be a mess. Making things easier to test. 44:48 – Jason: This is fresh in my mind because I am writing an app called Green Field. 46:32 – Uniqueness Validations, is mentioned by Jason. 47:00 – Anything else to add to testing a Rails application? 47:08 – Jason: Let’s talk about 2 things: walking skeleton and small stories. This book is a great resource for automated testing. Last point that I want to talk about is small stories: continues deployment and continuous delivery. If you make your stories smaller then you are making your stories crisply defined. Have some bullet points to make it really easy to answer the question. Answer the question: is this story done or not done? Someone should be able to run through the bullet points and answer that question. 50:02 – I am in favor of small stories, too. Makes you feel more productive, too. 50:14 – Work tends to lend itself to these types of stories and running a sprint. 51:22 – You don’t have to carry that burden when you go home. You might have too big of a chunk – it carries too much weight to it. 51:47 – Book the Phoenix Project. Work in progress is a bad thing. That makes sense. You want to have fewer balls in the air. 52:17 – Anything else? 52:22 – Jason: You can find me at: CodewithJason.com also Twitter!  52:45 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! 1:01:50 – Cache Fly! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Erlang Ruby Ruby Motion Ruby on Rails Angular Single Page Application (SPA) RSpec – Retry Ruby Testing Podcast The Feynman Technique Model Book: Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests (1st edition) Jason Swett’s Twitter Jason Swett’s LinkedIn Parable: Young Fish and Old Fish – What is Water? Jason’s articles and eBook Jason’s Website Sponsors: Sentry Get a Coder Job Course Fresh Books Cache Fly Picks: David This is Water The Feynman Technique Model Nate Taking some time off Pry Test Eric Fake App Ruby Hack Conference Dave Brooks Shoes Jason The Food Lab Growing Object-Oriented Software

Panel: Charles Max Wood Dave Kimura Eric Berry In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panel talks amongst themselves the topic: “When to Build, or When to Buy.” They discuss how time is limited, and whether it is worth their time to build their own app/software or to just purchase. They discuss the pros and cons of each. Check-out today’s episode for more details! Show Topics: 1:40 – Chuck: Anything that prompted choosing this topic? 2:13 – Dave: I am not a huge stickler of keeping tracks of things. With a new car, I wanted to start this off right. I wanted an app to show history of car. I wanted a simple view and wanted to take pictures of receipts. I didn’t find anything out there that I liked. Do I want to write a web application? 3:29 – Dave: I am going to write this app. There is a lot of the new technology, so I can keep up-to-date with real world technologies, with the act of storage. Keeping my skills sharp. Solving a real world need that I have. 4:06 – Panelist: Funny thing. That is a decision that has evolved with me. As a younger developer I would build everything that I could. I thought: “I have to own this,” I thought I have to have total control of this. This is for me. I try to buy everything that I can. There is only so much time in the day. Let’s point the question back to Dave. Are you more in the process of creation? 5:19: Dave: It fits to my needs. I don’t need something overly complicated. I think we often find situations where there is a justifiable case to build it then to buy it. If you buy it you have little control over the features and other things. What’s important to you is not important to others. So you will have to find a company that will meet your needs. You bring up an interesting topic and that’s data. 7:29 – Chuck: You are talking about the level of control. Eric this might sound familiar with sponsorship and so on. Eric said: Dude you are a developer. There is nothing out there that I need so I have to build it. I opt to trying to buy it if I can. 8:35 – Panelist: Yes, definitely. By focusing all of my attention on an application that won’t give me an ROI. Leave that other stuff to much smarter than me in that domain. 9:24: Panelist: I agree. If it is a core part of your business than, if you are buying, that might be a disadvantage. For example... I used a service called IMPROVLY. 12:00 – Chuck: it might not give you the control that you want, but if it can get you most of the way there then it will eventually move up in priority. 12:33 – Panelist: Look at utilities that support you, then that’s where MVPs can come into play. One limited, viable product. For example, the app tracker for my cars. I just wanted something simple. Some of the extra bells and whistles can come later. Something like code fund – there is a lot of expected features. There is so much business that goes into it. When I have time to build that stuff in then I will do that later. If it is too feature-rich then they will overwhelm themselves. They try to do everything today. Often that could lead to bad code, things not working properly. You save time by doing it right the first time. I think you have to really gauge what is your MVP? What can I do to make this functional? Then add in the features within the application. 15:19 – Panelist: When you decide to build – how much influence past products to drive your development. 15:38 – I say a ton, because then you are going to be reinventing the wheel. You OWN interpretation to things is fine. There is only so many ways to build something. See what people want and what they need. 16:15 – Panelist: It tends to muddy the developing waters a bit. I like to approach things not knowing what the competitors are doing. Then you aren’t constrained by past examples. I approach it as: How would I want to approach this by an individual so I am not blurred by competitors.  18:05 – Chuck: I build a feature I need and then ask myself: How do I put this together? What I need – I know what the outcomes need to be. At the end of the day I am looking for a model to provide what I need. In both of those cases. 18:44 – Panelist: Yes, having a good knowledge of the domain is good. It is more fun to build, right? 19:37 – Is it fun to build or is it to integrate? I like integrations better. 20:13 – Chuck: I have recently been integrating ZAPIER. 21:12 – Panelist: There are some things I will stay away from. I want to keep things with the specialists. If that means I am paying for the fees to use a third-party. 21:56 – Yes, 100%. You have to ask yourself: How lazy are you with X? 23:08 – If Twitter goes down then what? Have multiple options. You need to have other ways to authenticate in that area. So that means you have to be developing in... I think that will come down to your business needs. It will help the workflow, and help you make decisions If you are pinning yourself into a corner on time and resources. I think it’s sad that that has to be said. But look at other applications out there that are pinned into corners. People didn’t think of what they would need in the future. I am not saying that my products aren’t exempt form that. 25:52 – How do you qualify a good buy? This hits my criteria for the buy. 26:06 – If it’s providing a value. Not just this month but the following month – is this going to be worth the value. Mail hosting. This is worth it to me. There is so much hassle that goes into it. Then I have to maintain it. My business is hurting because I am focused somewhere else. I want to be able to answer emails from people. Focusing on the products that I am providing. Do I need to pay someone to support 27:35 – Panelist: The speed to integration and the speed to usage. It’s all about the pain. How much pain will there be to build one? Hire the laziest person possible. I pride myself being an extra lazy developer. I can I build the best thing in the least amount of time. Time with my brother in the past has shown me this. Perhaps the type of developer we are determines the answer to that question. I like to get code out the door more than create the code. What about you guys? 28:56 – Chuck: I like building it but I LOVE shipping it. 29:07 – I like creating it. Shipping part is the “I finished it.” Getting from nothing to something. Shipping is like the celebration for me. 29:32 – Digital Ocean Advertisement.  30:10 – It’s not to say that I don’t buy things, cause I do. The amount of software that I buy outweighs the ones I build. My time is limited. I do need control over the data. We were struggling a few years ago financially. I need a thumb drive and we fought on whether or not we could buy that. Finances are intimate details. If that information was stolen, so I built my own we application in my business to hold our finance data records. We wanted complete control over that. I saw that that it was a wise investment of my time. I had insecurities about that information leaked or stolen. Now we have too many thumb drives. 32:31 – I bought a thumb drive years ago for it and paid $50-60 for that. Which is insane. 32:55- Chuck: Build vs. Buy topic has been covered very well, so far. When you are building, which features to prioritize? Building features – which one to prioritize? 33:47 – It would be less impactful to your client base. You have sponsors and signing up for the show. The listeners could be returning guests. But your sponsors are coming on ALL the time. Feature rich platform for them. You want them to enjoy using your product. I think that would be the most important. Having something for your scheduling. It doesn’t have to be feature rich. But 34:43 – Chuck: I understand the trade-offs. Anything I can do to make the system automatic then that helps. Some people want some LIVE episodes. That leads the sponsorship into the content production stuff. Beyond telling Eric, my editor, where to put the ads within the episode. 36:52 – Panelist chimes in. 37:15 – They want the testimonial. The other end to that when we started off we got sponsors because we were novel. We were a different take on Ruby. The market has changed. Things change. Then it was okay well Ruby Rogues was a great way to meet developers. You can do conferences but you reach a lot of people in one week. Some of our sponsors early on - they past their ROI. Podcast market has changed. Some of this feedback has made me rethink things. The market has changed. People want to hear the personal touch and the personal message. They want to hear how these things are being run and how to fix the bugs. Just being aware of the needs and how the needs change. It is easy to get comfortable. Then it turns out jQuery doesn’t always cut the mustard anymore. But maybe it does? If you get comfortable then you will pay for it. 39:58 – So true. Like Code Fund. Blog Post: What is Keeping Me Up At Night? 41:11 – Chuck: Even their needs have changed. That feedback is crucial. It’s not just about keeping tabs on this stuff. Why are you loosing the publisher? Are you getting the feedback that you need. I am have gotten critiques from Eric and other people. Oh ok, let me change the packing to serve their needs. Kind of roll with the punches. If you aren’t talking back to your customers then there will be issues. 42:18 – Panelist: Side topic of how do you receive feedback? Some people there is a small minority that will bash you. They won’t give you constructive feedback. They are being a mean person. Having a good attitude is going to help with the feedback to make your product better. 43:15 – Chuck: Nobody wants to have that confrontation. 43:30 – I have grown to appreciate humanity. When you are asking them about: why did you leave? I see that they’ve read it 4-5 times but they didn’t hit reply. Am I doing this? Am I not doing this? 45:11 – Getting the opinions out there can help you if you can find the positive twist to even negative comments. 45:44 – How can this feedback make me a better person, podcaster or better in general? You can find that in the nastiest feedback that you may receive.    46:29 – But on the flipside – if you decide to buy – make the feedback constructive. Honestly 46:56 – I had a similar experience. Geekbot. I just bought it and I love it. They do daily standups on Geekbot. They kept skipping days. But they asked for me to try again, I di and I am glad that I did! 48:49 – Panelist: When you are talking about building your own software and you get that feedback it’s important not to be a person pleaser. If it doesn’t help ALL then it’s something you might NOT wan to build it. I t has to be globally beneficial. Do the right thing. I 50:49 – Chuck: Anything else? 51:01 – To UNSUBSCRIBE make them fill out a long form before you leave. One more kick to the groin. 51:17 – Chuck: Subject Line: Please Piss Me Off. How can we make this more effective? 51:40 – I send them weekly stats. I solicit through that e-mail. 52:00 – I think the point is that most people who buy software are HEARD and that they are a valuable customer. Their voice does matter. You want to solve their problems in a least expensive way. 52:36 – Chuck: Making it SUPER easy for them. 53:18 – Final thought about building: if someone has to leave your application, to do the task at hand, then your app is missing some core feature(s) that your users are wanting. 54:27 – Picks! 54:32 – Advertisement for Get a Coder Job! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Zapier Sponsors: Sentry Digital Ocean Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Dave Shapeoko Eric Geekbot Polymail Airbrake Charles My Ruby Story Podcasts Orlando -  FinCon or Microsoft Ignite MeetUp Park City Meetup

Panel: Charles Max Wood Dave Kimura Eric Berry In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panel talks amongst themselves the topic: “When to Build, or When to Buy.” They discuss how time is limited, and whether it is worth their time to build their own app/software or to just purchase. They discuss the pros and cons of each. Check-out today’s episode for more details! Show Topics: 1:40 – Chuck: Anything that prompted choosing this topic? 2:13 – Dave: I am not a huge stickler of keeping tracks of things. With a new car, I wanted to start this off right. I wanted an app to show history of car. I wanted a simple view and wanted to take pictures of receipts. I didn’t find anything out there that I liked. Do I want to write a web application? 3:29 – Dave: I am going to write this app. There is a lot of the new technology, so I can keep up-to-date with real world technologies, with the act of storage. Keeping my skills sharp. Solving a real world need that I have. 4:06 – Panelist: Funny thing. That is a decision that has evolved with me. As a younger developer I would build everything that I could. I thought: “I have to own this,” I thought I have to have total control of this. This is for me. I try to buy everything that I can. There is only so much time in the day. Let’s point the question back to Dave. Are you more in the process of creation? 5:19: Dave: It fits to my needs. I don’t need something overly complicated. I think we often find situations where there is a justifiable case to build it then to buy it. If you buy it you have little control over the features and other things. What’s important to you is not important to others. So you will have to find a company that will meet your needs. You bring up an interesting topic and that’s data. 7:29 – Chuck: You are talking about the level of control. Eric this might sound familiar with sponsorship and so on. Eric said: Dude you are a developer. There is nothing out there that I need so I have to build it. I opt to trying to buy it if I can. 8:35 – Panelist: Yes, definitely. By focusing all of my attention on an application that won’t give me an ROI. Leave that other stuff to much smarter than me in that domain. 9:24: Panelist: I agree. If it is a core part of your business than, if you are buying, that might be a disadvantage. For example... I used a service called IMPROVLY. 12:00 – Chuck: it might not give you the control that you want, but if it can get you most of the way there then it will eventually move up in priority. 12:33 – Panelist: Look at utilities that support you, then that’s where MVPs can come into play. One limited, viable product. For example, the app tracker for my cars. I just wanted something simple. Some of the extra bells and whistles can come later. Something like code fund – there is a lot of expected features. There is so much business that goes into it. When I have time to build that stuff in then I will do that later. If it is too feature-rich then they will overwhelm themselves. They try to do everything today. Often that could lead to bad code, things not working properly. You save time by doing it right the first time. I think you have to really gauge what is your MVP? What can I do to make this functional? Then add in the features within the application. 15:19 – Panelist: When you decide to build – how much influence past products to drive your development. 15:38 – I say a ton, because then you are going to be reinventing the wheel. You OWN interpretation to things is fine. There is only so many ways to build something. See what people want and what they need. 16:15 – Panelist: It tends to muddy the developing waters a bit. I like to approach things not knowing what the competitors are doing. Then you aren’t constrained by past examples. I approach it as: How would I want to approach this by an individual so I am not blurred by competitors.  18:05 – Chuck: I build a feature I need and then ask myself: How do I put this together? What I need – I know what the outcomes need to be. At the end of the day I am looking for a model to provide what I need. In both of those cases. 18:44 – Panelist: Yes, having a good knowledge of the domain is good. It is more fun to build, right? 19:37 – Is it fun to build or is it to integrate? I like integrations better. 20:13 – Chuck: I have recently been integrating ZAPIER. 21:12 – Panelist: There are some things I will stay away from. I want to keep things with the specialists. If that means I am paying for the fees to use a third-party. 21:56 – Yes, 100%. You have to ask yourself: How lazy are you with X? 23:08 – If Twitter goes down then what? Have multiple options. You need to have other ways to authenticate in that area. So that means you have to be developing in... I think that will come down to your business needs. It will help the workflow, and help you make decisions If you are pinning yourself into a corner on time and resources. I think it’s sad that that has to be said. But look at other applications out there that are pinned into corners. People didn’t think of what they would need in the future. I am not saying that my products aren’t exempt form that. 25:52 – How do you qualify a good buy? This hits my criteria for the buy. 26:06 – If it’s providing a value. Not just this month but the following month – is this going to be worth the value. Mail hosting. This is worth it to me. There is so much hassle that goes into it. Then I have to maintain it. My business is hurting because I am focused somewhere else. I want to be able to answer emails from people. Focusing on the products that I am providing. Do I need to pay someone to support 27:35 – Panelist: The speed to integration and the speed to usage. It’s all about the pain. How much pain will there be to build one? Hire the laziest person possible. I pride myself being an extra lazy developer. I can I build the best thing in the least amount of time. Time with my brother in the past has shown me this. Perhaps the type of developer we are determines the answer to that question. I like to get code out the door more than create the code. What about you guys? 28:56 – Chuck: I like building it but I LOVE shipping it. 29:07 – I like creating it. Shipping part is the “I finished it.” Getting from nothing to something. Shipping is like the celebration for me. 29:32 – Digital Ocean Advertisement.  30:10 – It’s not to say that I don’t buy things, cause I do. The amount of software that I buy outweighs the ones I build. My time is limited. I do need control over the data. We were struggling a few years ago financially. I need a thumb drive and we fought on whether or not we could buy that. Finances are intimate details. If that information was stolen, so I built my own we application in my business to hold our finance data records. We wanted complete control over that. I saw that that it was a wise investment of my time. I had insecurities about that information leaked or stolen. Now we have too many thumb drives. 32:31 – I bought a thumb drive years ago for it and paid $50-60 for that. Which is insane. 32:55- Chuck: Build vs. Buy topic has been covered very well, so far. When you are building, which features to prioritize? Building features – which one to prioritize? 33:47 – It would be less impactful to your client base. You have sponsors and signing up for the show. The listeners could be returning guests. But your sponsors are coming on ALL the time. Feature rich platform for them. You want them to enjoy using your product. I think that would be the most important. Having something for your scheduling. It doesn’t have to be feature rich. But 34:43 – Chuck: I understand the trade-offs. Anything I can do to make the system automatic then that helps. Some people want some LIVE episodes. That leads the sponsorship into the content production stuff. Beyond telling Eric, my editor, where to put the ads within the episode. 36:52 – Panelist chimes in. 37:15 – They want the testimonial. The other end to that when we started off we got sponsors because we were novel. We were a different take on Ruby. The market has changed. Things change. Then it was okay well Ruby Rogues was a great way to meet developers. You can do conferences but you reach a lot of people in one week. Some of our sponsors early on - they past their ROI. Podcast market has changed. Some of this feedback has made me rethink things. The market has changed. People want to hear the personal touch and the personal message. They want to hear how these things are being run and how to fix the bugs. Just being aware of the needs and how the needs change. It is easy to get comfortable. Then it turns out jQuery doesn’t always cut the mustard anymore. But maybe it does? If you get comfortable then you will pay for it. 39:58 – So true. Like Code Fund. Blog Post: What is Keeping Me Up At Night? 41:11 – Chuck: Even their needs have changed. That feedback is crucial. It’s not just about keeping tabs on this stuff. Why are you loosing the publisher? Are you getting the feedback that you need. I am have gotten critiques from Eric and other people. Oh ok, let me change the packing to serve their needs. Kind of roll with the punches. If you aren’t talking back to your customers then there will be issues. 42:18 – Panelist: Side topic of how do you receive feedback? Some people there is a small minority that will bash you. They won’t give you constructive feedback. They are being a mean person. Having a good attitude is going to help with the feedback to make your product better. 43:15 – Chuck: Nobody wants to have that confrontation. 43:30 – I have grown to appreciate humanity. When you are asking them about: why did you leave? I see that they’ve read it 4-5 times but they didn’t hit reply. Am I doing this? Am I not doing this? 45:11 – Getting the opinions out there can help you if you can find the positive twist to even negative comments. 45:44 – How can this feedback make me a better person, podcaster or better in general? You can find that in the nastiest feedback that you may receive.    46:29 – But on the flipside – if you decide to buy – make the feedback constructive. Honestly 46:56 – I had a similar experience. Geekbot. I just bought it and I love it. They do daily standups on Geekbot. They kept skipping days. But they asked for me to try again, I di and I am glad that I did! 48:49 – Panelist: When you are talking about building your own software and you get that feedback it’s important not to be a person pleaser. If it doesn’t help ALL then it’s something you might NOT wan to build it. I t has to be globally beneficial. Do the right thing. I 50:49 – Chuck: Anything else? 51:01 – To UNSUBSCRIBE make them fill out a long form before you leave. One more kick to the groin. 51:17 – Chuck: Subject Line: Please Piss Me Off. How can we make this more effective? 51:40 – I send them weekly stats. I solicit through that e-mail. 52:00 – I think the point is that most people who buy software are HEARD and that they are a valuable customer. Their voice does matter. You want to solve their problems in a least expensive way. 52:36 – Chuck: Making it SUPER easy for them. 53:18 – Final thought about building: if someone has to leave your application, to do the task at hand, then your app is missing some core feature(s) that your users are wanting. 54:27 – Picks! 54:32 – Advertisement for Get a Coder Job! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Zapier Sponsors: Sentry Digital Ocean Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Dave Shapeoko Eric Geekbot Polymail Airbrake Charles My Ruby Story Podcasts Orlando -  FinCon or Microsoft Ignite MeetUp Park City Meetup

Panel: Charles Max Wood Dave Kimura Eric Berry In this episode of Ruby Rogues, the panel talks amongst themselves the topic: “When to Build, or When to Buy.” They discuss how time is limited, and whether it is worth their time to build their own app/software or to just purchase. They discuss the pros and cons of each. Check-out today’s episode for more details! Show Topics: 1:40 – Chuck: Anything that prompted choosing this topic? 2:13 – Dave: I am not a huge stickler of keeping tracks of things. With a new car, I wanted to start this off right. I wanted an app to show history of car. I wanted a simple view and wanted to take pictures of receipts. I didn’t find anything out there that I liked. Do I want to write a web application? 3:29 – Dave: I am going to write this app. There is a lot of the new technology, so I can keep up-to-date with real world technologies, with the act of storage. Keeping my skills sharp. Solving a real world need that I have. 4:06 – Panelist: Funny thing. That is a decision that has evolved with me. As a younger developer I would build everything that I could. I thought: “I have to own this,” I thought I have to have total control of this. This is for me. I try to buy everything that I can. There is only so much time in the day. Let’s point the question back to Dave. Are you more in the process of creation? 5:19: Dave: It fits to my needs. I don’t need something overly complicated. I think we often find situations where there is a justifiable case to build it then to buy it. If you buy it you have little control over the features and other things. What’s important to you is not important to others. So you will have to find a company that will meet your needs. You bring up an interesting topic and that’s data. 7:29 – Chuck: You are talking about the level of control. Eric this might sound familiar with sponsorship and so on. Eric said: Dude you are a developer. There is nothing out there that I need so I have to build it. I opt to trying to buy it if I can. 8:35 – Panelist: Yes, definitely. By focusing all of my attention on an application that won’t give me an ROI. Leave that other stuff to much smarter than me in that domain. 9:24: Panelist: I agree. If it is a core part of your business than, if you are buying, that might be a disadvantage. For example... I used a service called IMPROVLY. 12:00 – Chuck: it might not give you the control that you want, but if it can get you most of the way there then it will eventually move up in priority. 12:33 – Panelist: Look at utilities that support you, then that’s where MVPs can come into play. One limited, viable product. For example, the app tracker for my cars. I just wanted something simple. Some of the extra bells and whistles can come later. Something like code fund – there is a lot of expected features. There is so much business that goes into it. When I have time to build that stuff in then I will do that later. If it is too feature-rich then they will overwhelm themselves. They try to do everything today. Often that could lead to bad code, things not working properly. You save time by doing it right the first time. I think you have to really gauge what is your MVP? What can I do to make this functional? Then add in the features within the application. 15:19 – Panelist: When you decide to build – how much influence past products to drive your development. 15:38 – I say a ton, because then you are going to be reinventing the wheel. You OWN interpretation to things is fine. There is only so many ways to build something. See what people want and what they need. 16:15 – Panelist: It tends to muddy the developing waters a bit. I like to approach things not knowing what the competitors are doing. Then you aren’t constrained by past examples. I approach it as: How would I want to approach this by an individual so I am not blurred by competitors.  18:05 – Chuck: I build a feature I need and then ask myself: How do I put this together? What I need – I know what the outcomes need to be. At the end of the day I am looking for a model to provide what I need. In both of those cases. 18:44 – Panelist: Yes, having a good knowledge of the domain is good. It is more fun to build, right? 19:37 – Is it fun to build or is it to integrate? I like integrations better. 20:13 – Chuck: I have recently been integrating ZAPIER. 21:12 – Panelist: There are some things I will stay away from. I want to keep things with the specialists. If that means I am paying for the fees to use a third-party. 21:56 – Yes, 100%. You have to ask yourself: How lazy are you with X? 23:08 – If Twitter goes down then what? Have multiple options. You need to have other ways to authenticate in that area. So that means you have to be developing in... I think that will come down to your business needs. It will help the workflow, and help you make decisions If you are pinning yourself into a corner on time and resources. I think it’s sad that that has to be said. But look at other applications out there that are pinned into corners. People didn’t think of what they would need in the future. I am not saying that my products aren’t exempt form that. 25:52 – How do you qualify a good buy? This hits my criteria for the buy. 26:06 – If it’s providing a value. Not just this month but the following month – is this going to be worth the value. Mail hosting. This is worth it to me. There is so much hassle that goes into it. Then I have to maintain it. My business is hurting because I am focused somewhere else. I want to be able to answer emails from people. Focusing on the products that I am providing. Do I need to pay someone to support 27:35 – Panelist: The speed to integration and the speed to usage. It’s all about the pain. How much pain will there be to build one? Hire the laziest person possible. I pride myself being an extra lazy developer. I can I build the best thing in the least amount of time. Time with my brother in the past has shown me this. Perhaps the type of developer we are determines the answer to that question. I like to get code out the door more than create the code. What about you guys? 28:56 – Chuck: I like building it but I LOVE shipping it. 29:07 – I like creating it. Shipping part is the “I finished it.” Getting from nothing to something. Shipping is like the celebration for me. 29:32 – Digital Ocean Advertisement.  30:10 – It’s not to say that I don’t buy things, cause I do. The amount of software that I buy outweighs the ones I build. My time is limited. I do need control over the data. We were struggling a few years ago financially. I need a thumb drive and we fought on whether or not we could buy that. Finances are intimate details. If that information was stolen, so I built my own we application in my business to hold our finance data records. We wanted complete control over that. I saw that that it was a wise investment of my time. I had insecurities about that information leaked or stolen. Now we have too many thumb drives. 32:31 – I bought a thumb drive years ago for it and paid $50-60 for that. Which is insane. 32:55- Chuck: Build vs. Buy topic has been covered very well, so far. When you are building, which features to prioritize? Building features – which one to prioritize? 33:47 – It would be less impactful to your client base. You have sponsors and signing up for the show. The listeners could be returning guests. But your sponsors are coming on ALL the time. Feature rich platform for them. You want them to enjoy using your product. I think that would be the most important. Having something for your scheduling. It doesn’t have to be feature rich. But 34:43 – Chuck: I understand the trade-offs. Anything I can do to make the system automatic then that helps. Some people want some LIVE episodes. That leads the sponsorship into the content production stuff. Beyond telling Eric, my editor, where to put the ads within the episode. 36:52 – Panelist chimes in. 37:15 – They want the testimonial. The other end to that when we started off we got sponsors because we were novel. We were a different take on Ruby. The market has changed. Things change. Then it was okay well Ruby Rogues was a great way to meet developers. You can do conferences but you reach a lot of people in one week. Some of our sponsors early on - they past their ROI. Podcast market has changed. Some of this feedback has made me rethink things. The market has changed. People want to hear the personal touch and the personal message. They want to hear how these things are being run and how to fix the bugs. Just being aware of the needs and how the needs change. It is easy to get comfortable. Then it turns out jQuery doesn’t always cut the mustard anymore. But maybe it does? If you get comfortable then you will pay for it. 39:58 – So true. Like Code Fund. Blog Post: What is Keeping Me Up At Night? 41:11 – Chuck: Even their needs have changed. That feedback is crucial. It’s not just about keeping tabs on this stuff. Why are you loosing the publisher? Are you getting the feedback that you need. I am have gotten critiques from Eric and other people. Oh ok, let me change the packing to serve their needs. Kind of roll with the punches. If you aren’t talking back to your customers then there will be issues. 42:18 – Panelist: Side topic of how do you receive feedback? Some people there is a small minority that will bash you. They won’t give you constructive feedback. They are being a mean person. Having a good attitude is going to help with the feedback to make your product better. 43:15 – Chuck: Nobody wants to have that confrontation. 43:30 – I have grown to appreciate humanity. When you are asking them about: why did you leave? I see that they’ve read it 4-5 times but they didn’t hit reply. Am I doing this? Am I not doing this? 45:11 – Getting the opinions out there can help you if you can find the positive twist to even negative comments. 45:44 – How can this feedback make me a better person, podcaster or better in general? You can find that in the nastiest feedback that you may receive.    46:29 – But on the flipside – if you decide to buy – make the feedback constructive. Honestly 46:56 – I had a similar experience. Geekbot. I just bought it and I love it. They do daily standups on Geekbot. They kept skipping days. But they asked for me to try again, I di and I am glad that I did! 48:49 – Panelist: When you are talking about building your own software and you get that feedback it’s important not to be a person pleaser. If it doesn’t help ALL then it’s something you might NOT wan to build it. I t has to be globally beneficial. Do the right thing. I 50:49 – Chuck: Anything else? 51:01 – To UNSUBSCRIBE make them fill out a long form before you leave. One more kick to the groin. 51:17 – Chuck: Subject Line: Please Piss Me Off. How can we make this more effective? 51:40 – I send them weekly stats. I solicit through that e-mail. 52:00 – I think the point is that most people who buy software are HEARD and that they are a valuable customer. Their voice does matter. You want to solve their problems in a least expensive way. 52:36 – Chuck: Making it SUPER easy for them. 53:18 – Final thought about building: if someone has to leave your application, to do the task at hand, then your app is missing some core feature(s) that your users are wanting. 54:27 – Picks! 54:32 – Advertisement for Get a Coder Job! Links: Get a Coder Job Course Zapier Sponsors: Sentry Digital Ocean Get a Coder Job Course Picks: Dave Shapeoko Eric Geekbot Polymail Airbrake Charles My Ruby Story Podcasts Orlando -  FinCon or Microsoft Ignite MeetUp Park City Meetup

Mark Wellman is a nationally acclaimed author, filmmaker and motivational speaker. Despite being paralyzed in a mountain climbing accident, Mark has inspired millions to meet their problems head-on and reach for their full potential. A two-time Paralympian and former Yosemite Park Ranger, Mark's NO LIMITS philosophy encourages individuals to adventure into new horizons; to go beyond the seeming unreachable. Mark is used to being on the road since he travels throughout the year, bringing his adaptive climbing wall to companies, organizations, and schools. We caught him during one of his road trips and he agreed to swing by Golden, Colorado to the No Barriers podcast studio and catch up with his old friends, Jeff, Dave, and Erik. Mark is unbelievably accomplished but also reserved and humble. He talks about his legendary, groundbreaking athletic achievements with the same tone most use to describe what they had for lunch. But there was a time in Mark's life where he was unsure, depressed, and hopeless with no clear path ahead. Mark discusses his near-death injury that he sustained on a climb that left his paralyzed from the waist down. He spent months in the hospital unsure of how to go forward and lost. That was, until he received some wisdom. I had this one physical trainer, she was from Germany, and she said: “You need to train like your training for the Olympics!” And I just really took that to heart.” Mark first was determined to find employment where he could stay connected to the outdoors. So, he went back to school and got his degree in Park Management. He worked as a Park Ranger in various capacities, already shattering people's ideas of what he was capable of, but that was just the beginning. He soon discovered the world of adaptive sports and threw himself into learning more and designing his own adaptive equipment to get back out into the field. It was then he came up with the crazy idea of climbing the sheer granite face of El Capitan. He found a partner, built an ascending rope pulley system, and started to train. Now, folks of many different abilities have climbed El Cap, but until Mark, this was unthinkable. He pulled it off and became the first paraplegic to make the ascent. “Are you crazy to take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid idea. Something could go wrong,’ but fortunately we didn’t really listen to that.” Mark went on to gain tons of media attention, made national and international news, met the President, lit the flaming torch up a 120-foot rope at the Paralympic games in Atlanta; a fun story he shared with us, and continued on to break even more records of athletic achievement, like being the first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevadas. Listening to Mark describe his epic achievements it's easy to forget he has a disability or about all the struggle that led him to this point in his life. But for Mark, it's about mindset. “I learned my disability wasn’t a death sentence - let’s get on with life, dude!” But Mark wanted to share what he learned with others. He details the spark of an idea he had with a friend that led to the formation of the nonprofit, No Barriers, and the humble beginnings of an organization that is now becoming a movement. He uses his time to speak to groups and offer inspiration, as well as lead hands-on adaptive activities that get people out of their comfort zones. “Let’s get out and enjoy life.” Read Mark's Autobiography Here Visit Mark's website: No Limits Learn more about No Barriers autobiography Climbing Back. The first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range, --------------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ------------------------- Dave: Well welcome to our No Barriers podcast. We are thrilled today to have Mark Wellman with us, who's one of the founders of No Barriers. Can't wait to hear some of his stories about what this organization was founded upon. He's really the heart and soul behind why many of us are here at the organization. Before we get into that conversation, Erik, you just came back from a really interesting experience, why don't share with our listeners a little bit about it? Erik: [00:00:30] Yeah, I was at a conference with all these authors. There were four of us, and the first was a lady, she was the author of Hidden Figures, this great book that was made into a movie, these African American women who were behind getting us to the moon, didn't get any credit at first, but then their stories were really illuminated by her book. And this guy who is falsely sent to death row for 30 years. He was incarcerated- Dave: Wow. Erik: In a five by [00:01:00] seven room, had to kind of go into his mind and think about how to expand his mind. He said in his mind he married Halle Berry. They were married for 25 happy years. Dave: When was this set? Erik: Recently. Literally just got out of ... he got out of jail, no apology from Alabama. But he wrote this amazing book, so ... And then a lady who wrote a book called Beauty Sick, mostly [00:01:30] about girls who struggle with body image, and how much productivity is lost in the world because girls are having to pay attention to makeup, and weight, and all the things that they worry about. Guys too, but mostly the focus was on girls, and I have a daughter, so I was sitting there just hanging on every word, thinking about my daughter and her struggle, so it was really book because it was four very No Barriers... Dave: That's a lot of No Barriers. Erik: ...authors right there. [00:02:00] Maybe we'll get them on the podcast at some point. Dave: That sounds like perfect fit for the kinds of topics we explore. Erik: Yeah. And I am totally thrilled... this is great. I'm so psyched to have my friend, all our friends, Mark Wellman on the podcast today. Dave: The legend. Erik: The legend, the dirt bag... is that okay to say? Mark: Yeah, yeah. Dave: You embrace it, right? Mark: It's great to be here. I embrace everything. Erik: Mark almost doesn't need an introduction, but Mark is [00:02:30] a world class adventurer, and an innovator, and is the key founder of No Barriers. Has done amazing things that blow your mind as an adventurer. Has skied across the Ruth Gorge. Has traversed the Sierra Nevada mountain range. Has mountain biked the White Rim Trail. Has climbed El Capitan, Half Dome. We were just talking this morning, your Half [00:03:00] Dome ascent was 13 days? Mark: Yeah, it was. Erik: On the wall. Just, Mark, a hero of mine for sure. You're a few years older than me. When I was a teenager and you were just a little bit older climbing El Capitan and doing all these amazing adventures, you were a huge part of my motivation, so I'm psyched right now. Mark: It's great to be here, thanks a lot Erik. Yeah I guess I could [00:03:30] start off with... 35 years ago I was an able bodied climber and we were climbing a peak called Seven Gables, which is pretty close to the Mount Whitney area. We had a 20 mile backpack to get into the base, and this is back in 1982, I was 22 years old. My good friend Peter Enzinger and I were back there to do this climb. [00:04:00] We set up a base camp about 10,000 feet, and the next morning we got up pretty early, grabbed our technical rock climbing equipment and left most of our provisions at the base camp, our sleeping bags. Sure would have been nice to have that sleeping bag with us but didn't have it. And we climbed Seven Gables. It was sort of technical, kind of a mixed route. There was a little bit of ice, a little bit of rock, and made [00:04:30] the ascent. By the time we topped of it was a little bit late in the afternoon, about five o'clock. We just embraced this beautiful view from the summit. American Alpine Club places sometimes these cairns, or climbing registers, at the top of the mountain. It was kind of cool to see this. In this case it was just a pile of rocks with a Folgers coffee can. And I opened up the Folgers coffee can and dumped out the little pieces of paper, and there's my [00:05:00] hero Royal Robbins had climbed it. "Cool man, I'm gonna put my name next to Royal." Did that, and then we decided we're gonna go down a class four descent on the backside, just scrambling, not roped. We were just kind of walking down a tail of slope. I'll be the first to kind of admit my guard was down. My partner said, "Hey, maybe we should put a rope on [00:05:30] this one section here." I go, "No, no. I wanna get down to base camp, I'm really hungry. There's some really good freeze-dried food I wanna eat." You know that wonderful Mountain House stuff. Erik: And 35 years ago. Dave: Delicious. [crosstalk 00:05:44] Mark: So next thing I knew, I slipped on some scree, and I pitched forward and I started rolling. I made a couple of somersaults and I rolled off about a 100 foot cliff. When I landed I broke my lower back at T 11, T 12. Of course at the time I didn't know it. [00:06:00] I was 22, I didn't even know what a wheelchair was. That happened, and my partner thought I possibly could have been killed. But he heard me yell back at him. He got down to where I was... he said he spent a couple hours with me stopping some bleeding on my legs, and some other stuff. Jeff: What's your recollection of that period of time... Mark: He said he was with me for two hours, it felt like ten minutes. Erik: Right. Mark: And then he left. [00:06:30] He left an orange, an extra jacket, and some trail mix and said "Man, I gotta get out and get some help." So after 30 hours, the best sound I've ever heard in my whole life was the sound of this... [helicopter sounds] ...coming up the canyon. Erik: You almost froze to death. Mark: It was cold that night. Yeah it was real cold. I was laying on some ice. That probably helped because it kept the swelling down in my back. So I'm an incomplete [00:07:00] para. I have a little bit of movement in my legs. They said that might have helped me, the swelling. But the helicopter got up there, it was actually a ship from the Forest Service. They were gonna just go up and see if it was more of a body recovery, but fortunately I waved to them and the helicopter disappeared. About an hour later, a second helicopter came up and this time was from Lemoore Navy Base, and they did [00:07:30] a technical rescue. Flew in, brought the rotors within several feet of the cliff surface, lowered a navy medic, got me in a stokes litter, got me back up into the ship. I was down at a trauma center, they were cutting my clothes off, and a nurse said, "Who's your insurance company?" And fortunately I did have insurance, I had Kaiser. I went through stabilization of my back with Harrington rods. I was in the hospital in 1982 for seven months. Dave: [00:08:00] Wow. Erik: Including rehab? Mark: Including rehab and the whole nine yards. And nowadays, a paraplegic if you go to Craig Hospital, it's kind of the factory up here in the west. A paraplegic will be in the hospital for about six weeks. It's pretty dramatic... in those days, it was a much longer hospitalization. Learning how to take care of yourself. And then... Erik: More time is better, right? I mean, [00:08:30] would make sense right? You can develop more time? Mark: Yeah, a little bit. I think seven months was a little excessive. Erik: Right. Mark: But you know, there's a lot to learn. Your life has really changed. Your spinal cord runs your body, and you're paralyzed from your waist down. You have bowel and bladder issues. You have skin issues you have to be careful about. So all those things were really important, and I had this one [00:09:00] physical therapist who was from Germany and she goes, "You need to train like you're training for the Olympics." I just really took that to heart and started lifting weights. Was ambulating with long leg braces. This was sort of the beginning of the wheelchair revolution where wheelchairs weren't a stale piece of medical equipment, they were a lightweight piece of aluminum that was more of an extension of your body. And the wheelchair [00:09:30] could take you from point A to point B. Fortunately, in 1982 was really when these wheelchairs... they started making lightweight chairs. And I was a part of that. Erik: Not the clunky Vietnam-era things, right? Mark: Exactly. The old Everest and Jennings chairs were more obsolete, and they were using... well there was a woman who started Quickie wheelchairs, Marilyn Hamilton, she got hurt in a hang gliding accident. They took hang gliding technology, clevis pins, aluminum, powder coat. [00:10:00] And they kind of messier of manufacturing these wheelchairs sort of like... taking the technology from hang gliders and applying it to wheelchairs. Erik: We're still less than ten podcasts in here, but we've already heard a lot of stories of people... these No Barrier stories of people who go down deep into these dark places. I don't want to bring you down, but you have a lot of experience right now and so you can look back. You went to a dark [00:10:30] place, obviously. Mark: Yeah. It was close to saying goodbye to this Earth. Fortunately I made it through. I remember getting back into rehab, then I met a state rehab counselor who said, "You know Mark, you have this great love, this great passion for the outdoors, why don't you become a park ranger?" And I'm thinking, "How's somebody in a wheelchair gonna be a park ranger?" I'm thinking [00:11:00] law enforcement, search and rescue, and she goes "No, there's many hats in the National Park Service, or many different jobs." She took me down to Fort Funston where I met a ranger who kind of showed me the ropes and said "Hey, you could maybe do a job, this would be an entry level position, but you could help us plant dune grass and work in the nursery, or you could go to the entrance gate and help out there." [00:11:30] So I did that for a summer and then I went back to school and went to West Valley College and studied park management. Erik: Cool. Mark: And became a ranger at Yosemite. I remember my first job wasn't exactly my idea being a ranger. There I was sitting in this little kiosk, this little booth, at Big Oak Flat, the entrance to Yosemite. In those days it was a three dollar entrance fee and I'd collect the money and be breathing in auto fumes all day long. That really wasn't [00:12:00] my idea of being a ranger. But it was entry level. The next summer I went down to Yosemite Valley and started working at the visitor's center doing interpretation. Interpreting the natural processes of the park, the public. Bear management, geology, climbing was a big subject too. I'd give programs on climbing, talk about A climbing versus free climbing. Jeff: Were you transparent with people that would come through the park, with how your injury took place? [00:12:30] When you'd talk about the [crosstalk 00:12:31] Mark: I was, I was. I would start my climbing program off with my accident, actually. And bring that in, because I think that was a big part of it. They might say, "Well who's this guy in a wheelchair, what does he know about climbing?" I'd kind of bring that in. That was before I climbed El Cap, I was doing those things. Jeff: Were you percolating on doing something like that when you were there? Mark: I was. It's kind of an interesting story. There was a magazine called Sports And Spokes, it was a wheelchair [00:13:00] athletic magazine. On the front cover on that magazine was a DSUSA chapter, a woman who was being lowered down a cliff in a wheelchair on a river rafting trip. The river went over a waterfall, and then you did portage all the equipment around the waterfall. They had a swami belt and a climbing rope and they had a helmet, I guess they wanted to put a helmet on her for safety, sounded like a good idea. And they lowered her down this cliff in this wheelchair, [00:13:30] and it was on the front cover of this magazine, Sports And Spokes. I got the magazine at my little cabin in Yosemite and I had it on my lap. I was wheeling over to the visitor center to open it up in the morning, and I bumped into my future climbing partner Mike Corbet. And Mike's nickname was Mr. El Cap back in the 80s, he had climbed El Cap more than anybody else in the world, over 50 times. And Mike had never really talked about climbing to me because he knew that's how I got hurt. But when [00:14:00] I showed him this picture, Mike's eyes got really big, and he got really excited. He goes, "You know what Mark, I wanna start climbing with you, but what I really wanna do is climb El Cap." And we had no idea how we were gonna do it. Dave: That's great. Mark: That evening, we were sitting at the mountain room bar, we might have had a beer or two. Dave: Or three. Jeff: That's where all good decisions are made. Mark: Where all good decisions are made. So we had a little beer napkin and we started writing down notes. We said, "Okay, [00:14:30] we're gonna take a jumar..." A jumar is a rope ascender, this was back in the day, kind of like what Kleenex is to tissue. So we took a jumar, and we mounted a pull up bar and a jumar, and then we had a second ascender on a chest harness. And we put a rope up right by the Ahwahnee Hotel. Church ball tree. It was an oak tree. We had this rope and we started ascending up into the tree and then he'd lower me back down. So we go, "Okay, [00:15:00] so a paraplegic can ascend a rope using their upper body strength. Now to get on El Capitan, we got to actually protect your lower extremities from the granitic rock." We knew we were gonna be up there at least a week. I don't have feeling in my legs, so I really needed to protect my legs from any kind of abrasion or any kind of sore that could have occurred up there. We went down to this hardware store in Fresno, California outside [00:15:30] of the park. We bought some leather, a speedy stitcher, some closed cell insulation foam, and we just started making these rock chaps and they sort of evolved over a course of six months. We were climbing Jam Crack, Warner's... Erik: Weren't they... what was the material of those? I've felt your chaps before. That sound's weird... Dave: The truth comes out. Jeff: Hey, we're all friends here. Mark: The original [00:16:00] rock chaps were made out of leather and canvas. But the pair of rock chaps you felt were actually made out of some kind of silky material. No, no... Dave: Oh that was lingerie? Not chaps. Jeff: This was the first No Barriers improv meeting, what you're talking about, with your buddy Mike. Mark: Absolutely. Jeff: That was it, that was the genesis of what... fast forward to today, that was the beginning. What [00:16:30] year was that? 1980... Mark: That was 1988. Jeff: 88. There you go. Mark: Yeah 88. I was 28 years old. Erik: So if you think about it that way, No Barriers began in the Ahwahnee bar. Jeff: Yeah, on a bar stool. On a bar napkin. Dave: I know you guys are all dirt bag climbers. I'm not a dirt bag climber. For our listeners who are not dirt bag climbers, someone paint a picture, because we're getting to the El Cap story. Which is a phenomenal story. Paint a picture of El Cap for us, because not everyone knows what that is. Jeff: Yeah, well. El Cap [00:17:00] is probably the most revered, iconic, monolith in North America if not the world. Uninterrupted, over 3000 feet of granite. It is... when you're in Yosemite, you look up at it and it's got this perfectly symmetrical flank apron on both sides that comes out into this promontory called the nose. And [00:17:30] you can't take your eyes off it. If you look away for a minute, you have to look back at it just cause it's so magnificent and powerful. And it represents so much too. If you want to call yourself a climber, you kind of have to climb El Cap at some point. Erik: When you stand in the meadows below, which is just clogged with tourists just all driving by gawking. What I've heard, is you have to look up and up and up, way higher than [00:18:00] you think you have to. Dave: And if you see a person climbing, as a person who's not a technical climber speaking, you think "Those people are crazy. They're insane. What are they doing up there?" Jeff: Erik and I climbed El Cap. And his dad, Erik's dad, and future wife were down there in the meadow with telescopes watching us. We had one of those little lighty things, little sticks, and we were shining our headlamps down at everybody. It's [00:18:30] a magnificent thing, but it's also very intimidating. It can be very cool when you stand up and look at it, but then the idea of going and climbing it I think is a whole different story. Erik: And as a quote on quote gimp, and that's a word by the way that Mark taught me. I never even heard that word before. It's one of those words I guess you somehow have the license to use if you are... Mark: If you are. Erik: If you are in a chair or you are blind. So what did, when you talked about this out loud, what did people [00:19:00] think? Are people like, "You're nuts." Mark: Yeah, we had kind of a mixture of both. People that knew us, were "Oh yeah you guys should go do this." Mark's been training, he's always skiing, always riding his bike, hand bike around... well in those days it was more of a row cycle. And then we had people say, mainly not to me so much but more to Mike, "Are you crazy? Take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid [00:19:30] idea. Something could go wrong." But fortunately, we didn't really listen to that. We just started training, we made these rock chaps. Like I said, they kind of just evolved over about a six month period. We kind of have a little circuit in Yosemite Valley that we climbed together. We did Jam Crack, the Prude, Warner's Crack, The Rostrum, we went over there. Erik: Oh, wow. Mark: So we did some stuff in the Valley [00:20:00] just to really warm up. And then I actually went up and spent a night on El Cap. Because we wanted to feel what that was like. Jeff: Up at sickle? Mark: We actually went to Heart Ledge. Erik: Wow. Jeff: Over on the south. Mark: Yeah, over on the south. The route we were gonna climb was a shield. So... Jeff: Cause it's overhanging. Mark: It was overhanging... once you get over the shield roof it's overhanging. The beginning of it's not. It's pretty low angle. Jeff: Were you scared at all before you did this or [00:20:30] were you just super fired up and kind of naïve? Mark: I was scared the night before. Jeff: You were. Mark: Yeah. Jeff: Like really scared? Mark: Yeah I was... couldn't sleep. This kind of what happened was... really Mike, about two weeks before we're gonna blast off, Mike goes, "Man we've trained so hard for this, I'm gonna write a letter to Tom Brokaw..." who is the national NBC News guy, who is a climber too, a little bit. And, I'm going, "Okay... " so basically [00:21:00] Corbet just wrote out a note with a pencil. He was a janitor at the Yosemite Medical Clinic to support his addiction to climbing. He just wrote a little note to Tom Brokaw, and I think three or four days later he's talking to... Tom Brokaw called the medical clinic and talked to Mike, and said "We want to come out and do this story." Erik: Gosh. Mark: And all of a sudden the pressure was on. That's when I really was thinking, "Wow you're telling national news, this is gonna add [00:21:30] a lot more pressure for myself." But as soon as we got to the base of El Cap and I touched that granite, all that training and preparation really got into par, and I got relaxed. I started doing pull up after pull up, dragging myself up the largest unbroken granite cliff in North America, El Capitan, and the first night... we do something called, we fix pitches. So we were fixed [00:22:00] up about 800 feet. So we had... Mike used to say, "It's always nice to kind of have a jumpstart." Erik: Right. Mark: You know, fix those lines, get all your water, we had 250 pounds... Erik: It's like a trail of ropes that go up 800 feet so you can just... Mark: The next morning... Erik: Start on the ground and zip up 800 feet and have like a jumpstart on this gigantic monolith. Mark: Exactly. And have all your water, all your gear up there. So he had to work three or four days to make that happen prior to us [00:22:30] leaving. Once we left Mammoth Terrace, we were on our own. We went through the Gray Ledges, and we went over... the roof was really tremendous. Because Mike is basically climbing upside down, and then gets up onto the pitch above it and fixes a rope. Then I kind of untied myself and I swing underneath that roof, and you can hear the cheers of the people down below. It's like [00:23:00] what Jeff was saying, It's quite a scene at the El Cap meadow. You really have to have binoculars. It's hard to see climbers up there, because they're so tiny, they're like little ants up there. If you don't know what to look for, it's hard to see these people. The crowd was yelling, and the green dragon would come by. It's a tour vehicle that has it's open air shuttle. Erik: "If you look upright you will see a nutcase [00:23:30] climbing El Capitan." Mark: We could actually hear them talking about "Mike Corbet, Mark Wellman, first paraplegic..." So that was kind of interesting. Finally when we topped out, it was seven nights, eight days of climbing. This was before digital technology on El Cap, when national news came out. They had a mule train, they brought out a satellite dish that was like five feet wide, and we were live on top of El [00:24:00] Cap talking to Tom Brokaw. Jeff: Sick. Mark: And we've got... between the Today Show and NBC News, and in a week we were on TV for like several hours if you took all the time that they played this. There wasn't really much going on in the news, so they really kind of played this story up in a big way. As soon as we got off that climb, about a week later, we're sitting in the Oval [00:24:30] Office talking to President Bush. It was myself, Mike Corbet, "Writtenaur" who was Secretary of the Interior, and Jack Morehead, superintendent of Yosemite. The four of us are in the White House, in the Oval Office, talking about bone fishing because President Bush loved to bone fish and we presented him with a flag that we took with us on the climb, and it changed my life. Erik: Mark, so you're not that old, but I see [00:25:00] you sort of as the father of adventur e sports for people with disabilities. I want people to understand that the idea to climb El Cap back in the 80s... nowadays, I think... how many people have climbed El Cap in chairs, paras? Mark: Oh the chairs? Erik: Dozens, right? Mark: Yeah, dozens. Erik: But you sort of unleashed that. You opened up this door. And now, quote on quote gimps are doing everything, right? Mark: Every summer there's [00:25:30] a paraplegic. Erik: But you opened that door for all of us. So, it's sort of a crazy thought to me. Mark: It is. You can't take the first ascent of El Cap, you can't take that away from me. That's something I'll always remember. It was a huge accomplishment for both Mike and I, and there's been different paraplegics who have gone up it. A gentleman with cerebral palsy, Steve Wampler, was probably the most [00:26:00] disabled person that's been up there. Lots of amputees. I call them amputees, hardly disabled. Paraplegics wanna be amputees. Erik: Those will be our first complaint letters. Dave: Exactly. [crosstalk 00:26:15] Mark: Quadriplegics wanna be paraplegics. Everybody has their differences. There's been a quadriplegic, incomplete quadriplegic, climbed El Cap with Tommy Thompson, good climber. [00:26:30] Steve Muse. Erik: There's that kid who climbed The Chief, he was inspired by you. Mark: Yep. Erik: He was a quad, and he climbed The Chief. He invented kind of this, almost like a contraption with wheels if I remember right, that kind of rolled up the face. Mark: Yeah it was... the premise was taking the Dolt cart. A climber by name of Dolt had this cart and he used to use it for a hauling system on El Cap. Brad "Szinski", the Canadian guy you're talking about, he came up with this [00:27:00] cart. His hands didn't really work as well as a paraplegic, he lost some muscle mass in his hands and fingers. So he had a different type of system where he could ascend a rope using a crank, and developed that. So there's been all kinds of different adaptations that allow people that are wheelchair users to go rock climbing. Jeff: This sort of set you [00:27:30] on this course to being an improvisational pioneer, those are my words. Were you like that always or do you feel like your accident cued you up for this opportunity to then over the past thirty years... Mark: Thirty five. Jeff: Yeah thirty five years. Now you've continued this trajectory of being this pioneer when it comes to just making it work. You make it work, right? Mark: I was so young. When I got hurt [00:28:00] I was 22. I wasn't climbing big walls, I hadn't got to that point yet of climbing El Cap. Finally, when I did have my accident it kind of made sense. The steeper the climb for somebody in a chair the better. Mountaineering is gonna be really tough. There are ways of doing mountaineering. We got four paraplegics on top of Mount Shasta. Erik: Yep. Mark: And there was a guy named Pete "Rikee". It's funny... people [00:28:30] come to me if they've got an idea, a lot of times they'll want me to be a part of the project. Least... Erik: That was a pod that they were in, that had almost like tractor wheels, right? Mark: Exactly. What we did is we took a snowmobile and cut the snowmobile track in half and made a tractor stance. So you have two tracks and a seat with a bicycle crank, and we actually crank our way up Mount Shasta. We had to get special permit from the Forest [00:29:00] Service. You can only be on Shasta for three days, and we knew we were gonna be up there for a week. So I had to drive up... I was trying to explain to this district ranger on the telephone, he really wasn't getting it. Erik: Sometimes they don't get it. Mark: And he wasn't getting it at all. He was thinking mechanical device... Jeff: Motorized... Mark: Right. He knew who I was, so he said "Come up and bring the machine with you so I can take a look at it." So I brought one of the snow pods up there and I met with the district ranger [00:29:30] and a couple of his back country rangers, and they got it. They said, "This is cool man, we'd like to let you guys do this." They gave us a special use permit. The big thing about the Forest Service and wilderness, or National Park Service wilderness, you cannot take... supposedly mechanized devices cannot go into the wilderness. But if you have a disability, your bicycle could almost be considered a wheelchair, or your snow pod can be considered [00:30:00] a wheelchair. Long as it doesn't have a Briggs and Stratton engine on it. That was the big thing, it has to be a manual piece of a gear that's human powered. So we got that, and we got four paraplegics on top of Mount Shasta. Erik: And El Cap really launched you into being able to do all these amazing things, right? You pretty much became a professional climber, adventurer, doing these things around the world. I know you lit the torch for the Paralympics, right? Mark: I did, I lit the Paralympic torch in Atlanta in 1996. [00:30:30] Muhammad Ali lit it for the able bodied Olympics. They had this torch, and the night before we're training for it... it's a big surprise, they don't want to see the person light the torch the night before, no media, so we're out there. I was gonna climb an 80 foot rope doing rope ascension, doing pull up after pull up. And North Face made me a little, kind of a... we envisioned this Robin Hood thing with... behind [00:31:00] my shoulders, this arrow quiver where I put the actual torch in. I didn't wanna burn my hair, what's left of it, so... Erik: You had a lot more hair... Mark: So I said, "Let's make this torch holder so it comes off your legs." So they made that for me. That night we're training, I get up the 80 foot rope, and I lit the fuse and the fuse blew out. Erik: Oh no. Mark: And the pyrotechnics guy goes, it was windy, and the [00:31:30] next day it was gonna be windy too. So the pyrotechnics guy guys... "Okay Mark, I'll make sure this fuse doesn't go out the night you do it." And I go, "Great." So I get up there in front of 80,000 people, I'm climbing up this rope. Liza Minnelli is singing this song and she's going "Go Mark, Go Mark." The whole stadium of 80,000 people is going nuts. So I lit this fuse, and literally the thing blew up. There was fire all over me. And I'm leaning back, hoping I'm not gonna catch [00:32:00] on fire. Then the fuse went up and lit the actual cauldron, and that was the start of the 1996 Summer Olympics. Jeff: You did not combust. Mark: I did not combust. I had the best seat in the house. Erik: You'd be like a Motley Crue drummer. Mark: Exactly. So that was fun. Erik: Takes us on a little tour of what you did. All those amazing adventures that you did after that. Takes us on a little tour around the world. Mark: What a lot of people don't realize, which I think is harder than climbing [00:32:30] El Cap, or spending 13 days on Half Dome was another big ascent we did years ago... but was doing the Trans Sierra ski crossing. I've done it twice now. I did it in 1993, it was a big winner, and I did it in 2011. So we took a cross country Nordic sit ski. You sit low to the ground, you have two skis mounted underneath a frame with a seat, and you're sitting maybe a foot off the snow. And you have two [00:33:00] poles, and you actually double pole. So you're double poling to make this device go down the trail. I was on the US Disabled Nordic Ski Team. Competed in two Paralympics, in France and in Norway. Got beat up by the Finns, the Norwegians, they're so passionate about that sport. Jeff: And they're vikings. Mark: And they're vikings, man. They're so tough. My best finish out of 30 guys was of fifth place, that was in France. [00:33:30] In Norway, I got even more beat up. I wanted to actually get into Nordic ski racing because I had other things I wanted to do. I wanted to try to get into the back country in a Nordic ski. Back in 93 a guy named Jeff Pegles and myself was also on the US disabled Nordic team. We took sleds, little polks, behind our rigs. We had our bivy gear. And we skied 55 miles from Snowline [00:34:00] on the east side of the Sierra on Tioga road, we got someone to open up the gate. Guy that worked for the power company opened up the gate. We got up to Snowline and we skied from Snowline to Crane Flat, which is 55 miles. Jeff: Wow. Mark: Following the Tioga road. Jeff: Just the two of you? Mark: Well we also had Pearlman with us too. Erik: Filming. Mark: He was filming, yeah. Erik: And, you gotta tell the story about the White Rim. So you biked the White Rim, I think you were on one off mountain bikes? Mark: [00:34:30] Yep. Erik: Or some kind of devices, hand crank mountain bikes. And it was so sandy, the story I heard, you had to get out and you had to pretty much pull yourself on your arms and pull your chair, did you pull the other guys chairs too? Or were the other guys' bikes... Mark: It was an epic, groveling adventure. Seems like everything I do turns into that. Jeff: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:34:50] Mark: If you're not suffering, you're not having a good time. That's kind of how it is out there. We had these one off mountain bikes and [00:35:00] we actually did a Jeep tour to kind of check it out a couple years prior. We did have it a little easier, we didn't carry all our water and food with us, we had a swag wagon out there. Suburban, follow the four paraplegics. Myself, Bob Vogel, and Steve Ackerman. We rode this, 52 miles is the full circumnav of the White Rim. There was times, [00:35:30] yeah, it was an interesting experience out there because some of these washes were like moon dust. We couldn't get our bikes through it. So I had a pair of rock chaps with me and I threw the rock chaps on and did some crawling. Had an 11 mil static rope and dragged the guys behind me. Did a few epic things like that. Jeff: I mean, If I'm riding my mountain bike and I come up on that scene in the middle of the White Rim, who knows what to make of that? Mark: [00:36:00] You can walk man, so best thing to do is just walk your bike. Jeff: Like, "You guys are good right?" and they'll be like "Yep, we're good man." Erik: Leave us alone. Jeff: Leave us alone. Mark: Don't touch me. Jeff: There's nothing to see here. Yeah. Erik: Yeah. Jeff: Wow, that's rad. Mark: And then recently, just a couple of years ago... in the winter we had a drought in California and Tahoe, so I circumnaved Lake Tahoe in a kayak in winter. And that was a really amazing adventure. It was 72 [00:36:30] miles, two nights of camping. But the cool thing was, and it was cool at night, it was really cold at night. There was no power boats. In the winter you don't have any power boats on Lake Tahoe, it was kind of like being out there in the 1800s. Seeing bald eagles, none of the tourists were on the water, it was really a fantastic trip. Dave: So Mark, you are someone who really embodies the spirit of No Barriers and you helped [00:37:00] start the organization. So tell us, all these adventures, all these things you've done to challenge what's possible, what people think is possible. Why No Barriers? Tell us that story. Mark: You know, No Barriers... I did a movie called No Barriers, and I got a poster out called No Barriers. It was a word that really meant a lot to me. My wife and I, we were down in San Francisco at a fundraiser... in those days it was called Yosemite Fund, now it's called Yosemite [00:37:30] Conservancy. We were at this dinner, and I met this kind of wild old character named Jim Goldsmith. And Jim came up to me, knew who I was... we started talking. He had a cabin in the subdivision I live in called Tahoe Dawner. So Jim and I, and Carol, and his wife Connie would get together, we had a couple of dinners together. And then Jim started talking about the Dolomites, and his [00:38:00] son-in-law and daughter. And he said, "Man, it would be really neat to kind of do something for disabled people and able bodied people if we did something in the Dolomites." And I go, "Man, I know a couple of guys who I've done some stuff with, a guy named Hugh Herr, double amputee who's done some rock climbing with him, and Erik Weihenmayer." This was probably after your Everest... Erik: Yeah, after. Mark: This was after your Everest climb. And I said "Hey, these [00:38:30] guys..." we did a climb out in Moab Utah, the three of us, it was kind of gimp helping gimp, it was this real magical event out there. Which was really cool... Erik: Climbing the Fisher Tower. Mark: Yeah. The Fisher Tower. Ancient Ark. Erik: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mark: And it was this really fantastic climb. I'd like to get these two guys involved with what we're talking about. SO I called Erik, I called Hugh, and we ended up putting our first [00:39:00] little... in those days, it was more of a festival, we called it, instead of a summit. We did it in the Dolomites. It was a very obscure little place up in the mountains, this real beautiful location, but nothing was really accessible. The hotels weren't that accessible, everything was kind of difficult to put this together. But it was this real magical place in the mountains... Erik: I remember the chair operators didn't even know how to get people with disabilities on the chairs. Mark: They didn't have [00:39:30] an idea. They didn't... yeah. Erik: On the ski lifts. Thank you. Yeah. Mark: They weren't doing adaptive skiing in those days in that little village. It was actually the home of the 1956 Olympics. SO that was kind of my envision was to start this, and who knew it was gonna get into what it is today. It's just amazing what you guys have done, and all the different things No Barriers has to offer people. Erik: What do you think about when you think about the evolution? You had this little germ [00:40:00] of an idea to go to this town and start talking about accessibility and innovation, and some of your lessons about how you've broken through barriers, or how the three of us had broken through barriers. And now, when you look at it today... Mark: [sighs] It's kind of mind boggling how it's grown so big and how many different people it affects, it's not just the disabled community, it's able bodied community bringing everyone together. Trying new experiences. The youth programs [00:40:30] that you guys have been doing is tremendous over the years. Soldiers to the summit. We're having all these guys coming back doing ten tours, they're not adjusting back into society very well, and taking them out into the outdoors with Jeff and different mountain guides, it just changes their lives. Brings them more back into a reality where they can really kind of adjust back into society. And then the summit is just... I love [00:41:00] coming to the summits. I've been to every one now, I haven't missed one since the beginning. It's gonna be fantastic in New York, I'm really looking forward to that. Erik: And you bring your climbing wall, your portable climbing wall. Mark: I'll have... Erik: Almost to every summit. So that's your mission now, right? To go around and use your climbing wall as a No Barriers tool to help people break through barriers. Tell us about that. Mark: Absolutely. Climbing has been such a big part of my life, that I just like to introduce different [00:41:30] people to the sport. A lot of times, somebody that's... we don't say electric chair, electric chair is something you die in. Power chair. A power chair takes you from point A to point B. A power chair user, a lot of times doesn't have all the... there's not as many things out there for a power chair user to participate in. Climbing on my wall, they can. We have these harnessing systems [00:42:00] that support your core. It's almost like a Bosen's chair, pulley system. If you have the desire to get on the climbing wall, we can facilitate that. We don't turn anybody away. We've had people that weigh 500 pounds on my wall before. Very obese wheelchair users... it doesn't matter. I had a gentleman that had spina bifida and he was unfortunately caught up in the American society of drinking a lot of soda, [00:42:30] and became really big. We got him on the wall, it was really difficult for him. We would talk to him and he wouldn't really look at you eye to eye as we were talking. I saw him a year later, he dropped 150 pounds, quit the soda, got into a training, cut his hair in a mohawk, and it just changed his life. Got out of the power chair and was in a manual chair. So climbing was kind of the responsibility of really changing this guys life, and now I see [00:43:00] him down in Los Angeles. I probably take the wall to Southern California maybe seven or eight times a year, San Francisco, Bay Area. I sort of have different groups hire me year after year, once they experience the wall they really want to have it be part of their event. We bring in, mini El Cap I call it, and we get people on it and we have a great time. Erik: And you're traveling around with your wall, full time. People bring you in to create this experience for their [00:43:30] rehab hospital or organization or team, right? Mark: Exactly. All those venues... I do adaptive climbing seminars. So a gym might call me and wanna know, "how do we get an adaptive climbing program going?" So I do that. And a lot of times I'll do not only a seminar on adaptive climbing, but then maybe that evening do a show and tell about adventure sports and where adventure sports have taken the disabled in the last 35 [00:44:00] years. Erik: And you are like Kleenex now, because... you talk about the pulley system, it's not a pulley system, pull up system, a lot of people say, "Oh yeah, Mark Wellman system." Mark: Yeah, it's... yeah it's kind of getting that way. Jeff: You're like Beyonce now. Mark: I'm like Beyonce. It's just kind of neat that my passions over the years... everybody should have a passion. And my passion has always been [00:44:30] to be out camping, doing something in the outdoors, coming up with new ideas, new technologies... and some of these technologies are more like a backyard technology. It's not that fancy. Sometimes some of the most simplest things can change something. Like mountain bike tires on a wheelchair can change a chairs getting into the back country tremendously. Mounting a pull up bar in a sender can allow a paraplegic [00:45:00] to do 7000 pull ups in eight days to go up El Cap. Just simple little technologies can really change peoples' lives, and you can take that backyard technology, garage technology, put something together that works for you that can help a whole bunch of people. Dave: I'd like to go back to that... You've told us a story, sort of the arc of your life, and when I look at you Mark and think about what you've accomplished I think "God, this is incredible. [00:45:30] This is an incredible human being that very few people who had what happened to you would ever have chosen the path that you have chosen." And I think, when I think about our No Barriers community, every so often you get folks who will say "Yeah, that's Mark Wellman but that couldn't have been me. You're putting someone in front of me that's so incredible, how could I possibly do this?" Erik: Yeah, you're de motivational. Mark: Right, right. I know, I get it. Dave: I'd love to hear, what do you think we can... 'cause this is what we do at No Barriers. We... If you're [00:46:00] listening to this, it's not like we take everyone up mountains, but we try to remind them about something in their spiri t... Mark: Yeah. Dave: ...that teaches them anything is possible. So talk to us a little bit about, Mark, how did you get to that point? Is it just sort of who you were from the beginning, was it an evolution? It just seems like everything you encountered, you are like, "I can do more." Mark: I think it's really important for people to get out of their comfort zone. Nowadays, it's so easy for young people to get... they get into gaming. And they [00:46:30] just, you know... it's stagnant. You're not getting out of your comfort zone. And the outdoors has a way of getting you out of your comfort zone. And you can make it safe... you don't need to think about what I do, it's more about finding, maybe getting some different experiences. And that's what's so cool about the summit. You have all these different activities going on where you just get a little taste of it. And hopefully [00:47:00] that little taste will inspire your imagination to want to try it again. And that's where I think it's really important if you're facilitating skiing or climbing, or whatever you're facilitating, you have to make sure that these people, their first experience is a good one. If they don't have a good experience, most likely they're not gonna go back to it. And, it's really important that the very first time... One of our board members, Sasha. [00:47:30] He was an academia guy, a professor. He came to the No Barriers event in Squaw Valley, the first one. Never had tried climbing before, and we took him to Donner Summit and got him up on this road cut climb that's 80 feet with big exposure, and it changed the guys life. It was something he was real nervous about, but it was getting him out of his comfort zone, and him [00:48:00] really having, you know... it was exciting for him, it was thrilling, it was challenging not only physically but mentally challenging at the same time. All those things combined. Kind of changed his life. And he became a board member of No Barriers because of that. Dave: Yeah. Mark: And there's stories like that all the time. Or Mandy, I remember her... wonderful singer. She got on my wall, it was 25 feet, and she [00:48:30] was really scared. It was a really scary moment for her where she had this big fear of heights. It wasn't like she was on a 1000 foot rope, she was on a 24 foot wall. But she might have well have been. Jeff: Relative for her. Mark: Could have been a 1000 foot climb. But she made it through. And came down... I got a guy that helps me, Wes, he's a search and rescue guy, kind of a big guy. He's just magical with [00:49:00] people, and really helped her a lot. So, you have all these different experiences... Erik: And I think that experience, by the way, gave her the courage to go out and do something completely non-climbing related, which was to write music and to go on to America's Got Talent, and... Mark: Exactly. Erik: Get into the finals, and now skyrocket into stardom. Mark: To fame. Absolutely. Making a better quality life for herself. [00:49:30] A lot of times when you say, somebody that's a wheelchair user... what is it, like 90 percent of the people in wheelchairs don't have jobs. And it's always kind of bummed me out, I'm thinking, "Wow." Why would you wanna be caught in a system like with Social Security and be basically poor your whole life, because "Oh I have Medicare, I have my Social Security disability," So you're trying to live on six to eight hundred dollars a month. And you're caught [00:50:00] in this kind of vicious circle. You've got to get away from that somehow, and get into the workforce, be productive. You're gonna feel better, you're gonna be a more productive citizen in this country, and you're not gonna be wrapped up in this vicious circle of never getting ahead and always having the government thumb you down, so to speak. Erik: Last question for [00:50:30] you from my end, this is Erik, and I wanna know, I've made it kind of clear that I look up to you. Tell me, who are the people that you look up to? Tell us about that guy Larry, tell us about some people who influenced your life. Mark: Oh man. There's been a lot for sure. There was a guy named... actually I think you're thinking of a guy named Mark Sutherland. When I first got hurt, Mark was a quadriplegic ten [00:51:00] years post to my injury. And he was back in the hospital. He had a bone spur, the spur was touching his spinal cord, and he was losing some of his action. Some quadriplegic can move their arms and they can push manual chairs, and he was one of those. But he was losing some of his arm strength, so he was in the hospital, and my room was next to his. We would talk at night. 'Cause I was really bummed out when I was first injured. To me, being a paraplegic was a fate [00:51:30] worse than death. I was on the sixth floor, if I could have crawled over to the window and jumped out I would have cause that's how bad I felt. I was just thinking, "Not having the use of my legs, I'm not gonna ski again, I'm not gonna climb." I was 22, I was just like, "Why didn't the mountain just take me." Those were the kind of thoughts I was having. But then I would go into this guys room, Mark Sutherland, and he would talk about, "Oh I had this milk truck that I converted, and I had a stool. One time I was driving it with my hand controls [00:52:00] and I fell off the stool, and I was on the ground and I had to throw my hand on the brake to stop it so I didn't kill anybody." Jeff: And you were like, "That's the greatest story ever." Mark: Yeah. I wanna do that. So I was just hearing this stuff from this guy, and he was talking about girlfriends, and how he was running around doing this and doing that, and I'm going, "Man, this guy has a life." And it was really inspiring to be... so where I was really depressed and laying in the hospital bed, and couldn't feel [00:52:30] my lower extremities, and "What's a catheter?" And I'm just like, "Man, this is horrible, what did I get myself into." And this guy was really upbeat and uplifting... Jeff: Showed you it wasn't a death sentence. Mark: Yeah. Showed me it wasn't a death sentence, and let's get on with life, dude. And it was like, boom. That just changed me. Then we went into rehab together, we were more in a hospital setting and then we both went into our physical rehab. That's [00:53:00] when it just started clicking for me, and that was it. Dave: Well, just to wrap up this excellent conversation that we're having about the history of No Barriers and all that you've done as well just individually, you've seen No Barriers be this thing that started in the Dolomites in 2003, we're 15 years into this. What's your dream for what it becomes? Mark: Wow. I would just consider it to be... I'd like to see maybe a couple summits a year, possible. [00:53:30] More, smaller clinics would be really cool too. I think you guys are really on a good, good path. But maybe some smaller events too. Just keep growing it. Keep doing more of these kinds of things. More technology. Bringing in more people, better speakers. Better people that are... or people that are doing more things that inspire others that give the ideas [00:54:00] to do more things. I'm amazed in 15 years where it's come to. Who knows where it's gonna go. Another 15 years from now, man this could be a huge, huge organization that could affect a lot of people and bring a lot of people together. This whole family, bringing the tribe together. It's always fun at the summits, and seeing people I haven't seen for a year, [00:54:30] spending time with them. I love getting people out climbing, so that's my passion. Erik: What if people want to learn how to get in touch with you, how to work with you, how to bring your wall to their organization? Mark: Yeah. Google Mark Wellman or just go to my website, No Limits Tahoe dot com. Give me a call. Erik: Although they won't talk to you, 'cause you're never home. You're always out [crosstalk 00:54:55] or something. Dave: Always on the road, right. Mark: Well, no, yeah I'm easy to get a hold of. Talk to my wife, Carol, [00:55:00] and I can get back to you. Erik: Right. Mark: Send me an email. I'm better on the phone, I don't like to email tons. Love to talk to you, if you have ideas lets talk about, lets see you at the summit. Lets get out and enjoy life. Erik: Cool. Well thank you so much Mark. Jeff: Listen Mark, I know you well enough to know you don't need to hear what I'm about to tell you, but, I think it's important for you and the listeners to know [00:55:30] in conversations like this, it becomes so clear how you are sort of the upside down pyramid. And you're the point on the upside down pyramid. And it all sort of funnels up from you, really. And I know there's others, but you're the man. And I know it's important for you, it is important for me to know that you know how many thousands of lives you've impacted. Erik: Tens of thousands. Jeff: Thousands of lives dude. You have been the kick starter [00:56:00] and the imputes. And you're just one of the most wonderful pioneers. I know you know it, but you need to hear it more, because you're the man. Mark: I appreciate it man, it's humbling. And, to take a passion that I had and a dream... and like I said, just simple adaptations, a pull up bar on a jumar. Man, how that changed other people to go climb up El Cap, or do Castleton, or whatever [00:56:30] mountain you want to get up, it's been a pretty cool experience. It's been fun to work with other companies. We're making more adaptive climbing equipment now. It's really kind of evolved from just handmade rock chaps to a real sophisticated pair of rock chaps that allows people to get out there and do a lot of cool stuff. Dave: Well it's been an honor to have you here Mark, I know many of our listeners are part of that No Barriers tribe. Many of them will know you, but a [00:57:00] lot of them won't. The movement has grown so big that it's well beyond you. But per what Jeff was saying, it's so important I think for the people of our community to know where this began. Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dave: And you are the point that Jeff mentioned where it began, and so, thank you so much for joining us, we appreciate having you. Mark: My pleasure. Erik: What did you guys take away from that? Might take us a while. Dave: Yeah. Exactly. Jeff: Might be a lengthy debrief on that one. Dave: I guess for me, as someone who's helping to build [00:57:30] this movement, like I was ending with there, just to remember the roots of where No Barriers began which is individuals coming together in small communities around creative ideas to do stuff that people didn't think was possible. And as we start to move to tens of thousands, maybe millions over the next ten years of people that we impact, that there's something in that special sauce that's still about the [00:58:00] individuals getting together having a fun, creative idea and going out and pushing their comfort zone. Erik: Yeah. I think that, No Barriers recipe is sort of hidden right in the story of El Capitan, which is... Mark's a smart guy, but he's not a scientist or anything, he's not Hugh Herr, who's inventing stuff where you go, "I could never do that." What he said is a pull up bar and a jumar. These are commercially available things. I think he had to adapt a few things, but [00:58:30] not all that crazy technology. Pretty simple. You combine that series, that innovation with the human spirit and a great friend or great support system, a great rope team, you do this amazing thing that opens up the door for a lot of people. It's a pretty simple recipe. Dave: It is. Jeff: All the big things that have happened with regards to our species all started with this small [00:59:00] germination of somebody sitting in their theoretical garage just being like, "How do I do this? Hmm?" And head scratch, and start piecing these things together, and then, boom, the movement begins. I think Mark embodies that, and what a great cornerstone for this organization. Dave: Well, and the movement continues. So if you're sitting there listening saying, "I wanna be a part of this organization, I wanna be a [00:59:30] part of No Barriers," please go to our website, No Barriers USA dot org. You can join us at the summit that Mark mentioned that's coming up in October in New York. There are many more ways you can join us but please, No Barriers USA dot org is our website. You can also share our podcast with your friends and colleagues and families, and follow us on our Facebook page. Thank you so much for listening. Erik: Live No Barriers. Dave: Thanks.

Links DaveAdamson.tv Dave on Twitter Dave on Instagram Dave on YouTube Chasing the Light book Today, we’re joined by our friend Dave Adamson, who is a former TV sports reported from Australia. Dave serves as the social media pastor for North Point Community Church in Atlanta and is a social media expert. Dave and his wife Meg have three daughters.  Conversation with Dave What does a social media pastor look like week to week? It’s beyond social media. I deal with a lot of people who connect with our church digitally. People connect with your church before they connect in your church, and most of the time they do that through social media. We want to make sure we have a great presence there, that we’re involved in the community and that we’re connecting people from social media to our other areas and hopefully eventually to our church. That doesn’t sound like a real job, Dave. It’s funny, since I took this job we’ve heard from other churches who have hired social media directors. It’s become a bit of a thing. Social media is everywhere; we’re all on it and connect with people that way. In the U.S., church attendance is declining. But I don’t say it’s declining; I say it’s decentralizing. People don’t need to come to church anymore to get the content.  How does technology and social media impact our marriages? Social media does impact, but it has the ability to be a wedge or to bring us together. I could use technology to contact my wife in a way I couldn’t when we were first married 20 years ago. But at the same time, when I come to bed at night and Meg’s been to bed for an hour and I see the glow from her side of the bed it doesn’t seem like a good thing. Why isn’t it a good thing? It can create a separation—instead of spending the end of the day talking we’re on social media and turn it off to go to sleep. Do you feel that tension in your relationship with your spouse, especially toward the end of the day? Or is that just part of your natural rhythm? Afton: We actually started charging our phones in a different room when we go to bed. We actually started it to help us sleep better, but it does help relationally because you talk when you go to bed. Ted: We have three teenagers, and we can’t be on ours all the time if we’re telling them not to be. So there’s the accountability there. We’re pretty conscious about it. Dave: We have a rule in our house that all phones get turned off at 8pm and all phones get charged in our room. We used to charge them in the kitchen but we found one of our daughters would get up and go find it at night. This also means that we, the parents, have access to your phones. The second rule is that every device in our house is on the same password, so I can open up their phones and scroll through it. But they can also do it to us. We also have a rule that Friday night till Saturday night is a device free zone in our house.  What would you say to the couple that doesn’t think they have an issue? How might social media be impacting them without them realizing it? There are positives and negatives to it. The device/social media itself isn’t the enemy. There’s a stat that says the average American touches their phone 300 times a day. I always think to myself – how would my relationship with my wife be different if I held her hand or stroked her hair 300 times a day? It can be a negative thing but we can make it positive too. I even find with my daughters. I follow their Instagram accounts and it keeps me connected with what’s going on.  How does awareness help us control the impact technology has on our marriage? Once you make that switch and start to use technology for good, it actually means more. There’s a book by Reggie Campbell called What Radical Husbands Do and he says that for the first five minutes when you get home, stay five feet from your wife. I’m usually walking in ending a phone call or reading/posting something. Now, I will park around the corner, finish my phone call and then put my phone in my bag and drive in. I try to spend that first five minutes with her and then with my girls. How have you used technology to make your relationship better? Afton: We have one Spotify account, so when Hudson is listening to it I like to get on my phone and steal it so he can’t listen anymore. Dave: That’s a good point, because we have one Audible account and we often read the same books now.  CJ: We like to try to go an entire day only texting each other GIFs to talk about our day. It’s entertaining. Ted: Texting is a great thing for us during the day. I love the fact that we can connect that way Dave: My wife travels with a missionary, and we use FaceTime to stay in touch. Another great way we use technology is we watch Netflix together and have regular family movie nights on Friday. Technology has done a lot to bring our family together. What do you say to someone whose spouse is always glued to their phones and they’re having a hard time connecting with them? I think it’s making people aware of certain statistics. That idea that we’re touching our phones 300 times a day or spending 2-2.5hrs/day on our phone. It’s the realizing of the time we’re wasting. Have some statistics so you’re ready to give them information that helps them make the decision. What’s the payoff for people being on their phones all the time? That’s a huge cultural and societal question more than anything else – we do it because everyone is, but it’s also how we stay in touch. As to the why, I think it’s partly the dopamine hit, part is marketing. We’re told we’re missing out if we don’t have this in our life. I think it’s also because it’s a way to enhance relationships. I always look at it from the point of view of how many people I’m still in contact with from Australia because of technology. I’m also leveraging my social media as a tool to pass my faith on to my kids. I started writing out all my thoughts on Instagram in the form of devotionals. My daughters read them and they may or may not have heard it otherwise. Do you have any closing thoughts for us, Dave? It’s all about awareness—how often you are on the phone and not on the phone. How often you’re leveraging technology for good and how often it’s driving a wedge between you. I’ve found birthday and anniversary gifts for my wife from her Pinterest. It’s all about being aware and using it for a positive outcome and not letting it drive a wedge. Your one simple thing for this week: Go 24 hours without any phone – your whole family. Put them in a basket and put them away for the whole day. Show Closing Thanks for joining us for the Married People Podcast. We hope you’ll subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and leave a review. They help us make the podcast better. We want to hear from you! Two things: first, let us know what you do on social media or technology to connect with your spouse and second, let us know how your 24-no-technology day goes.  Share with us on Facebook, Instagram or our site.  You can find more from Dave on his Instagram, website or his book – Chasing the Light. If you want more resources, check out Your Best Us.

We meet with Dave Weller to discuss the issues surrounding native and non-native English teachers such as attitudes of parents and teachers, the responsibilities of language schools and how to change opinions.Tracy: Hello, everyone.Ross Thorburn: Hi, folks.Tracy: Today, we've got our regular podcast guest...Both: Dave Weller.Ross: Hello, Dave.Dave Weller: Hello, everybody. I was trying not to say hurrah again.[laughter]Dave: Regular listeners will know what I mean.Ross: Dave's here this week to talk with us about a rather controversial issue...Tracy: Which is native English speaking‑teachers versus non‑native English‑speaking teachers.Ross: Today, we've got three questions. The first one is what's all the fuss about? Second...Tracy: What do the parents and the students think about it? The third one...Ross: What can managers and schools do about it?What’s the “Native” / “Non native Teacher” debate about?Ross: Guys, what's the debate about?Tracy: Based on my understanding, just schools, parents, teachers and students feel a different mode of English ‑‑ native or non‑native...They've got advantages and disadvantages. So it seems more people, native English‑speaking teachers and have a better model of English.Ross: As well as that, it seems like there's a bit of a tendency in the industry that native speakers who are teachers will tend to get paid more. Native speakers who are teachers will tend to be given more opportunities.Dave: Actually, I read about a study that looks at higher education institutions in the UK. They found over 70 percent of them made hiring decisions for staff based on whether they were native or non‑native speakers.Ross: That doesn't surprise me a lot. It's almost like our whole methodology and approach to teaching language, doing everything in the students' L2, is almost based around having native‑speaking teachers, right?Dave: Definitely. It goes really deep. Again, there's different levels of it. It's fine if it just stayed as an opinion, but once it turns into action, policy and systems, that's where discrimination kicks in. It becomes distinctly unfair and entrenched within our industry. Despite being what a lot of people think of as a very nice and liberal industry, it hides quite a lot of trade dark secrets.Ross: Interestingly, if you do any reading on this, you find that it becomes very difficult to define what a native speaker actually is. One thing that you can't deny is that the person grew up speaking English, but when you start to look at other criteria, they're very, very woolly.It tends to be things like they can be creative with language, they don't have a foreign accent, they're aware of the culture of the language. All these things, which clearly, it's possible...Dave: Of course. Non‑native speakers have that as well.Ross: Ultimately, you get to this point where, really, the only difference between the two is that one of them grew up speaking English, and one didn't. Which, if you're learning English from someone, is pretty irrelevant, isn't it, what language or what they did in their childhood. Who cares about that?Dave: Precisely. All you really care about is how good they are as a teacher, how well then can connect with you in the classroom, they can motivate you, and all the other things that go into making up a good teacher.This whole argument actually needs to be rephrased into clearer lines. Silvana Richardson mentioned in her IATEFL that we need a new word for non‑native speakers. For me, that word would just be English teachers.There's no point devolving that word into finer detail. You should actually go back up the chain. We're all English teachers. Just some of us have different skills and backgrounds than others.If we were to do that, it would solve a lot of these problems. When you talk about a teacher, you can, "OK, which language can they speak and at what level?" That way, you can say, "Well, in the old parlance, there's this native‑speaking teacher who can speak a little bit of the learner's L1, but not to their level."Then there's a native speaker who can't speak any. Then there's a non‑native speaker who is local to the area. Then there's a non‑native speaker that isn't local from the area."Ross: Part of it is linguistic determinism. The Sapir‑Whorf hypothesis, made famous by the recent movie ‑‑ "Arrival." This idea that because of the language that we use, that we have to describe the teachers as native and non‑native teachers or speakers, that's the thing that we end up focusing on.If we changed it, and say, we called them monolingual or bilingual teachers, then which of those would you have a preference for?Dave: I agree to a point, but this is why I might be against that. I can't say everything goes as you plan. Then in 20 years' time, you actually might get a reverse situation where there's prejudice against native speakers because of the bilingualism versus monolingualism.All I think you should do is revert back to the phrase teachers and then what skills does that teacher have.What do parents and the students think about “Native” / “Non- native Teachers”?Ross: Interesting in that the research I've done on this and the survey where I looked at parents, students, teachers, and sales and service staff, and asked every group, I had a bunch of different attributes in there.For example, attitudes, qualifications, personalities, relationship with students, being native speakers, what people look like, their nationality, and their ability to speak the student's L1.The number one thing was definitely not being a native speaker. That ranked about number three or number four in people's preference. The native or non‑native speaker is...people use that as a proxy.It's something that if you don't know anything about the industry, then you can relate to that very, very easily, but if you're a parent and you don't know anything about language learning, you're not going to know what qualifications the teachers should have.It's very difficult to see what the teachers' attitudes are or their personalities, if any, or of those things. It is quite simple to check. Is this person a native speaker or not?Dave: I find it fascinating. To go back to non‑native speakerism for a second, I was reading some of Adrian Holliday's work. He said that it started out as almost a marketing ploy from various aid agencies back in the '60s to propagate the idea that native speakers were the best model.In which case, that obviously links up to the idea that Silvana Richardson said in her plenary that we can change the perception in the industry. All it takes is a little time.With research that backs this up ‑‑ research coming out that actually says that it's not just OK, but beneficial to use L1 in the classroom ‑‑ you put those things together, then this is the way forward to actually eradicate bias in our industry.Ross: Let me play you that quote from Silvana now.Silvana Richardson: Employers always have choices. Collusion with inequality and prejudice is a choice. Discrimination is a choice. As Rajagopalan says, "In our neoliberal world, who will dare challenge what the market dictates?"The answer to this is, just because the market is demanding certain things, it does not mean that the market itself cannot be made to perceive things differently.Ross: Do you think that's true? Is that realistic though, that the market can be made to perceive...Dave: Of course, it is. Yeah, definitely. If you look on an individual on a mass scale, how many times have we changed our minds over the course of our professional development over the last 10, 15 years?Precisely, it's the same thing with the industry. Industries change, ideas change, views change. It happens usually, I would argue, from the ground up rather than direct from above, especially in an industry such as ours which is quite fragmented and has no overarching body to dictate the standards.Tracy: I still think there is a huge market, because you just look at the education companies doing online or offline. The business...they create the scenario, and having native English teachers is the better choice.Ross: In that case, do you think it's an easier or difficult or a long or short task to change the way that Chinese parents and students see local teachers?Tracy: It's going to be a long way. I have to say all the non‑native teachers need to work really hard, because if you constantly made the mistakes, and you constantly misspell the word, and you constantly use the utterances or expressions that people don't normally use, and use those language to teach your students, there is a problem.Ross: It's so unfair, because I see a lot of really bad native‑speaking teachers [laughs] who don't get picked up on making teaching mistakes or methodological mistakes.Dave: Or even language mistakes of teaching language which is highly improbable, possible but doesn't often get used. They end up teaching...It's, maybe, not going technically wrong, but you'll hear people teaching language that never gets used.Ross: They're from one particular part of the Deep South in America and they use a phrase that only them and their family and the people in that village use and are like, "I've never heard it before."I don't see them getting picked up on those mistakes. They tend to get a free pass because they're a native speaker. That's really unfair.Tracy: A lot of teachers or parents always say, "Oh, I want my student or my child to speak Standard English," or "All the students should learn Standard English."Dave: There's no such thing anymore, is there?Ross: I don't think so. Is that a cultural concept that exists in China? There is a standard Chinese, but there's no Standard English.Dave: Let's play devil's advocate just for a second. I can clearly understand what they mean though. Even though we're looking at it from a technician's point of view, we're looking at it from a point of view of professionals in the industry. What parents mean...it's almost like the shadows on Plato's cave, to take it deep for a second.The concept of a horse, despite all horses can look slightly different...Again, they're using that term as a proxy of an English that will be understood around the world. No matter where they go, it'll be effortless to be able to communicate with other English‑speaking teachers and not be hindered in any way through pronunciation or grammar or phrase. That's shorthand for what they're trying to say.Ross: Indeed, but is it not also the case that a very, very small percentage of learners will learn English or an accent or something to the point where they're at that level of, "Oh, I want to sound English" or "I want to sound American," but, really, for most of the students I've taught, even after years, they sound Chinese, because...Dave: Maybe your students, Ross.[laughter]Dave: Sorry, that's such a flippant answer. No, I completely agree with your point. In fact, I'd even add to that and say, it's not about increasing their level. It's about teaching the skills to grade their language if they do encounter another non‑native speaker who has trouble understanding their accent, maybe because they're from a quite different culture. Again, you're arguing against a perception and a belief.What can managers and schools do about “Native” / Non-native Teacher” discriminationRoss: Can we talk for a minute about language schools and, maybe, what language schools can do about that? I've got another Silvana quote for you. Do you mind if I play this briefly?Dave: Please do.Silvana: This is part of the California/Nevada's position paper opposing discrimination against non‑native English speaking teachers. It says, "Teaching job announcements that indicate a preference or requirement for a native speaker of English trivialize the professional development teachers have received and teaching experience they have already acquired.Such announcements are also discriminatory and ultimately harm all teachers ‑‑ native or not ‑‑ by devaluing teacher education, professionalism, and experience.Ross: To what extent do you guys agree or disagree with that?Dave: 100 percent. Again, I really speak with authority from my background, which is as a native speaker. Again, it does trivialize my experience and the amount of work I've put in over the last 15 years of professional development, studying...Ross: Getting qualifications and things...Dave: Precisely. The extra work I've put in ‑‑ thousands of hours ‑‑ and then to be reduced to being called, "He's a native speaker. He'll do."Ross: It still happens so often. Tracy, you had something like that a few weeks ago over organizing a teacher training thing here. Again, you've obviously got your diploma, you're studying your MA, you've been a tutor and a course director on accredited courses.The people running the course said, "Oh, can you make sure there's a native speaker or foreigner for at least half the course?"Dave: Who's just finished a 40‑hour online course, perhaps.Ross: Or maybe not even that. Isn't it fascinating that that still persists?Tracy: They even didn't care about what qualifications or experience they have. Also interesting, the person from the organization even asked me, "Can you tell me more about this trainer?"I said, "OK. Maybe I can ask this person to send the CV, send the training, teaching experience." She said, "We really don't care about it. Just tell me his age, which country he's from, and also if he's white or black."Ross: What about on the flip side for a minute then, Dave? As someone who used to be a director of studies before in a school where you had to make hiring decisions, where's this balance? Were you ever in some tough situations there?Dave: [laughs] Yes.Ross: How did that work out then?Dave: The thing is, as a manager ‑‑ anyone who's been a manager, I'm sure, can relate to this ‑‑ you have to pick and choose your battles. That was the one that I'll actually go to bat for.If you had several candidates and various degrees of discrimination in different things as one that Tracy mentioned earlier about someone's skin color, also about non‑native speaking teachers, you just go and not actually ask if these persons' qualified, they're capable, they've gone through the interview process, and that they would be a good fit for this team, they'd be a good fit for this country, and they'd be a great fit for our school.Then you'd put your foot down. You'd have an argument, almost, with the culture of the school. If you won ‑‑ sometimes you did, sometimes you didn't ‑‑ often, unfortunately, it depended on how badly the school needed teachers, and how many classes waiting you had, how many students waiting to start class.Unfortunately, it was usually the deciding factor. Once the teacher arrived, whereas the students after a few lessons, would be delighted with the experienced teacher, the parents would turn and become delighted and insist on having that teacher as a future teacher for their children.What’s does the future hold for “Non-native English teachers”?Dave: It's always sad that we actually have to do this, or that it's something that we do have to get passionate about. Do spread the word on.I'm very optimistic about it. I like to think there are enough people out there that people will go back, spread the word, and take small actions. There will be this groundswell of people that do this.Ross: All right, Dave, thanks very much for coming on. It was a pleasure talking to you again.Dave: It's a pleasure to be here, as always. Thank you.[background music]Tracy: Thanks, Dave. Bye, everybody.Ross: Bye.Tracy: For more podcasts, videos, and blogs, visit our website...Both: Www.tefltraininginstitute.com.Ross: If you've got a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss, leave us a comment...Tracy: If you want to keep up to date with our latest content, add us on WeChat @tefltraininginstitute.Ross: If you enjoyed our podcast, please rate us on iTunes.

Bass is tricky for on-stage sound. How do you avoid getting lost in the mix? Let’s define it… What does it feel like to be lost in the mix? Dave: It feels like waking up in the middle of the night to make a PB&J sandwich but you forget to …

Listen in on this unique conversation after a late night mastermind outside the Clickfunnels headquarters. On this episode Russell talks about contrast with Dave and Steven. Here are some interesting things to listen for in today’s episode: Why having contrast creates desire in customers. And what kinds of things about contrast Russell, Dave and Steven learned from the Chatbooks viral video. So listen here to find out why contrast in your marketing is so important. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell, I’m here with Dave and Steven, what’s up guys? Welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast, we got a special edition happening right now. Okay, so we just got done. We had a little Boise Mastermind group, they meet every month around different places, and we never had a chance to go. But we actually hosted it here in the Clickfunnels offices tonight. So we put the kids to bed and come here and we’re here for 4 hours or so, talking about tons of stuff. So we just had a really cool conversation while Dave went back in to go to the bathroom and he missed it. Dave: It’s Alex Charfen’s fault. Russell: Alex did this podcast about the number one supplement for entrepreneurs and it ends up being water and then… Dave: 3 gallons later. Russell: It’s really convincing, you guys should listen to it. We’re all obsessed, have you listened to it yet? Steven: Well I know enough that I’m just drinking a lot of water. Russell: It kind of freaked us out so we’re drinking insane amounts of water. It’s like bathroom breaks every 30 seconds. Dave’s like, “I gotta go to the bathroom.” And then he missed this huge conversation. So I gotta retell it and I might as well retell it right now with you guys because it was actually really interesting. So what we’re talking about…I got a black face, let me come here in the light. Let there be light. Alright so what we’re talking about. So those who are listening you have no idea what’s happening, but those watching the video, we’re in front of the Clickfunnels offices at nighttime, we’re under the streetlight. So I was listening to a podcast that Ryan Deiss did on the perpetual traffic talking about the Chatbooks viral video and he basically played it, paused it, talked about the before state and the after state of the woman in that video. Which you guys have seen the video obviously. If you havne’t seen the video go to harmonbrothers.com and click on the Chatbooks video. Probably the best, I would say probably their best viral video, it’s really, really good. But he’s talking about the before state and the after state and how good that video did. Here’s where she was at before, here’s where you’ll be after the product. Before, after, before, after.  We started talking about how the big secret to copy and sales is contrast. I was telling them ten years ago I went to a course with Matt Furey, he talked about contrast. He said contrast is the key to everything. Because you have the contrast of where they’re at and where they want to go and then your message in the middle there is what creates the desire for them to go from this to this. He talked about an email that’s like, in the course I was studying with Matt Furey it was email marketing, he was like, “Every good email has tons of contrast. Light and dark, happy, sad, fat, skinny, rich, poor. The contrast is what makes it interesting and then it’s what creates the desire to go from the before state to the after state. That’s the whole key, the contrast. A lot of people never think about that, but as you’re writing the emails, think about the contrast. The before state, again the way Ryan Diess explained it, the before state and after state, which was brilliant. In fact, I had never watched the Chatbooks video through that lens before, but if you watch it through that lens of the before state and the after state you see it over and over again. You see that she’s in the tub at first and she’s the smiling mom in the bathtub, so it’s like, this is a nice thing. Then she stands up and she’s fully clothed and the kids in the tub with her and she’s like, “I fell in while timing him holding his breath.” There’s the before and it keeps transitioning back and forth. So in any of your communication, whether you’re doing storytelling, or writing emails, or sales letters, or videos, whatever, the contrast is the key. So with the contrast you’re thinking about that, if you told a story about how fit you are, nobody cares, there’s no contrast. It’s like, “I was fat, I was sick, I was unhealthy, I was whatever.” You tell that first and then you tell the contrast to the other thing and the contrast is what creates the desire for somebody to change, which is what they need to have to give you money and that kind of stuff. So the contrast is a secret, in the before state and the after state, that’s the magic. We gotta rewrite the Expert Secrets book, stop the presses. Let’s add in this thing. So yeah, we just kind of had that epiphany as we were talking. So there you go. Contrast, add it in everything you do to create the before states and the after states. And it’s really fascinating. So watch that. Watch it in the viral videos, watch it in email. As you’re watching good marketers, try to notice the contrast. Because the better the contrast, the more desire is created. So watch how they do it, watch how I do it, watch how other people do it, that’s the secret. There you go guys, marketing secret number whatever we’re on, hope you guys like that. With that said, it’s time for us to go home and go to bed. So bye everybody.

Listen in on this unique conversation after a late night mastermind outside the Clickfunnels headquarters. On this episode Russell talks about contrast with Dave and Steven. Here are some interesting things to listen for in today’s episode: Why having contrast creates desire in customers. And what kinds of things about contrast Russell, Dave and Steven learned from the Chatbooks viral video. So listen here to find out why contrast in your marketing is so important. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell, I’m here with Dave and Steven, what’s up guys? Welcome to the Marketing Secrets podcast, we got a special edition happening right now. Okay, so we just got done. We had a little Boise Mastermind group, they meet every month around different places, and we never had a chance to go. But we actually hosted it here in the Clickfunnels offices tonight. So we put the kids to bed and come here and we’re here for 4 hours or so, talking about tons of stuff. So we just had a really cool conversation while Dave went back in to go to the bathroom and he missed it. Dave: It’s Alex Charfen’s fault. Russell: Alex did this podcast about the number one supplement for entrepreneurs and it ends up being water and then… Dave: 3 gallons later. Russell: It’s really convincing, you guys should listen to it. We’re all obsessed, have you listened to it yet? Steven: Well I know enough that I’m just drinking a lot of water. Russell: It kind of freaked us out so we’re drinking insane amounts of water. It’s like bathroom breaks every 30 seconds. Dave’s like, “I gotta go to the bathroom.” And then he missed this huge conversation. So I gotta retell it and I might as well retell it right now with you guys because it was actually really interesting. So what we’re talking about…I got a black face, let me come here in the light. Let there be light. Alright so what we’re talking about. So those who are listening you have no idea what’s happening, but those watching the video, we’re in front of the Clickfunnels offices at nighttime, we’re under the streetlight. So I was listening to a podcast that Ryan Deiss did on the perpetual traffic talking about the Chatbooks viral video and he basically played it, paused it, talked about the before state and the after state of the woman in that video. Which you guys have seen the video obviously. If you havne’t seen the video go to harmonbrothers.com and click on the Chatbooks video. Probably the best, I would say probably their best viral video, it’s really, really good. But he’s talking about the before state and the after state and how good that video did. Here’s where she was at before, here’s where you’ll be after the product. Before, after, before, after.  We started talking about how the big secret to copy and sales is contrast. I was telling them ten years ago I went to a course with Matt Furey, he talked about contrast. He said contrast is the key to everything. Because you have the contrast of where they’re at and where they want to go and then your message in the middle there is what creates the desire for them to go from this to this. He talked about an email that’s like, in the course I was studying with Matt Furey it was email marketing, he was like, “Every good email has tons of contrast. Light and dark, happy, sad, fat, skinny, rich, poor. The contrast is what makes it interesting and then it’s what creates the desire to go from the before state to the after state. That’s the whole key, the contrast. A lot of people never think about that, but as you’re writing the emails, think about the contrast. The before state, again the way Ryan Diess explained it, the before state and after state, which was brilliant. In fact, I had never watched the Chatbooks video through that lens before, but if you watch it through that lens of the before state and the after state you see it over and over again. You see that she’s in the tub at first and she’s the smiling mom in the bathtub, so it’s like, this is a nice thing. Then she stands up and she’s fully clothed and the kids in the tub with her and she’s like, “I fell in while timing him holding his breath.” There’s the before and it keeps transitioning back and forth. So in any of your communication, whether you’re doing storytelling, or writing emails, or sales letters, or videos, whatever, the contrast is the key. So with the contrast you’re thinking about that, if you told a story about how fit you are, nobody cares, there’s no contrast. It’s like, “I was fat, I was sick, I was unhealthy, I was whatever.” You tell that first and then you tell the contrast to the other thing and the contrast is what creates the desire for somebody to change, which is what they need to have to give you money and that kind of stuff. So the contrast is a secret, in the before state and the after state, that’s the magic. We gotta rewrite the Expert Secrets book, stop the presses. Let’s add in this thing. So yeah, we just kind of had that epiphany as we were talking. So there you go. Contrast, add it in everything you do to create the before states and the after states. And it’s really fascinating. So watch that. Watch it in the viral videos, watch it in email. As you’re watching good marketers, try to notice the contrast. Because the better the contrast, the more desire is created. So watch how they do it, watch how I do it, watch how other people do it, that’s the secret. There you go guys, marketing secret number whatever we’re on, hope you guys like that. With that said, it’s time for us to go home and go to bed. So bye everybody.

Here's the Transcript of the Interview Hugh Ballou: Hey, it’s Hugh Ballou. Welcome to Orchestrating Success. I have a new friend, and man, we’ve connected on lots of different levels. I want to introduce my new friend, Dave Anderson. Dave, welcome to my podcast. Dave Anderson: Hugh, thank you for having me. I definitely appreciate it. Thank you so much for taking the time. Hugh: Oh yeah, you have been fighting traffic in Philly. I’m not far away. I am down in the middle part of Virginia, just moved from southwest up a little bit. Dave, I’m quite impressed with some of the things you have done in your life. Give my listeners a little glimpse into what is your secret sauce, your superpower, your special wisdom that you bring to leaders in your coaching and your work. Tell us where you got to where you are, a little bit about your background, and what it is that you do to help people be successful. Dave: I started my career at the age of nine, making me one of the youngest people ever to have a radio contract. I retired from the radio industry after working with Les Brown, Rickey Smiley, George Wallace, and a bunch of folks. I realized that there was only so much that I could do. It was time for me to get to that next level. That is when I decided to retire because through the course of my career, I found that people kept coming to me for advice. Salespeople would come and have me go close their sales calls for them. I’m like, I’m not getting a percentage of your commission. There is something wrong with this. I realized that I was making companies a whole lot of money, like millions upon millions of dollars, but I wasn’t getting 10% of this. I knew there was a better way. I decided to strike out on my own. I have written several bestselling books. My most successful book is called Pitch, Close, Upsell, Repeat. It breaks down my entire sales process. I would say my superpower is getting people out of their own way and into success using a combination of tough love and actionable information. That is what I do. I believe that the best way to make this country great is to focus on entrepreneurship, get back to growth, getting back to creating our own economies and building things that allow us to thrive, to spend time with our kids, to be with our families again as opposed to saying, “Oh, I hate my boss. My boss is a little 20-year-old snot who doesn’t know anything about anything. I know I could run this company, but I won’t ever have the opportunity.” I am pulling people out of their cubicle matrix into the reality of their greatness. That is what I do. Hugh: Whoa. That is a power-packed bunch of words. You let a few things slip in there. Your book, give us that title again so I can capture it on the notes. Dave: It’s called Pitch, Close, Upsell, Repeat. It’s my four-step process to sales success. If you want to dominate anything when it comes to your business, you need a great sales process. I think if you focus on those four things, you can do anything. When I write books, I write books to make sure that people can actually digest them. You can get it anywhere major books are sold. Any bookstore, Amazon, all that good stuff. It’s still on the bestseller list. It’s a great book. I am very proud of it because it makes the idea of sales not this scary thing, and it allows anyone, even shy people, to find techniques that are going to work for them in order to increase their revenue. Hugh: I love Garrison Keeler’s definition of shy people. He says shy people are people who are radically polite. Dave: I love that. Hugh: The book is Pitch, Close, Upsell, Repeat. Is it David Anderson or Dave Anderson? Dave: It says David. I decided to go by Dave a little bit later on after I wrote the book because there were a bunch of David Andersons as well as Dave Andersons, but still. There is only one Business Bully, and that’s me. It works for me. I’m not really caught up on names. I am caught up on the experience people have when they reach me. Hugh: Great. You’re an inspiration. It’s interesting. You and I are in different generations. I am an old boomer. What generation are you in? Dave: I am at the end of Gen X. I am a Gen Xer. Hugh: A Gen Xer? Dave: Yes, sir. Hugh: It’s amazing that we have so much in common as far as our vision of leadership and empowerment. You and I have had a few conversations, but I am smarter than I look. I figured that you got some real superpowers. That is why I invited you on this podcast today. I don’t know about you, but I got a lot of people who want to be on my show. Just yesterday I turned down 27 invitations of people who want to be on. You have cut through the noise. The Business Bully? Is that what you said? Dave: Yes, indeed. Hugh: That is the name of your podcast. Dave: Yes, it is. Hugh: What is that about? Dave: What it’s about is two things. I am a big believer in having a distinct message or what people like to call a unique selling proposition. I also believe that we are very polite and very politically correct, and I don’t believe in those things. I believe that people get really emotionally attached to their businesses, and they treat their businesses like their babies. I gave a talk in Baltimore a couple years back, and this one woman said, “My business is my baby.” I said, “Ma’am, do you have children?” She said, “Yes, I do.” I said, “Imagine that I’m a genie, and I can take your business and turn it into a child who has the same familial resemblance as the rest of your children.” She said, “Okay.” I said, “Now, I am going to ask you to choose which one of these children has to die: your daughter, your son, or your business? One of them has to go.” She said, “Shoot the business all day.” I said, “That’s why your business is not your baby. Get your feelings out of it, and let’s talk about what’s really ugly in your business so we can fix it. How can I heal you as a doctor if you don’t let me examine you or diagnose the problem, let alone get to the point where I can treat it? We have to get over this emotional attachment to a thing that can be built and destroyed like that.” I think that that is what it is. Someone on Facebook famously said, “I don’t like Dave Anderson because Dave Anderson is a business bully.” I went to the trademark office, and here we are. Hugh: Here you are. That is like turning it around, man. Dave: Absolutely. Hugh: That is fascinating. I want to alert our viewers to the fact that you are getting over being bashful. Dave: It’s a process. I’m struggling. Hugh: That’s another thing we have in common. You dropped another phrase in there, being politically correct. Oh my word, is that toxic or what, being politically correct? Speak more about that. Dave: It’s very toxic because you eliminate the ability to be honest. The reason that I cut through above most people is that you know where you stand with me. I told my wife, “Honey, if I unfortunately die before you, two things will happen. 1) You will have a great insurance check. 2) I am going to need you to put at the base of my urn—because I want to be cremated, I don’t want to waste money on a casket—‘Here are the remains of Dave Anderson. You always knew where you stood with him.’” There is no guessing. I am very black and white. I am very this or that. I am very yes or no. My favorite book says, “Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no.” There is no mistaking how I feel about something. But we don’t do that. We like to dance around and then go talk behind somebody’s back about how horrible their business is. No, I am going to tell you because that is going to free you. You might not like it. I don’t like tetnus shots. I don’t like rectal exams for prostates. I am sure you can relate to that. I just had my first; it wasn’t a pleasant experience, Hugh. You could have given somebody some insight, but I would rather know that I have a really bad PSA count. I would rather know that I have prostate cancer. I would rather not have the flu than walk around feeling good and living a beautiful lie. I think that’s what’s happening. We all are a bunch of beautiful liars instead of telling people the ugly truth in love. Hugh: I love it. You heard it right here on the Orchestrating Success podcast. Right here. We resonate on that as well. Your podcast is on iTunes and many other platforms. Where can people find more about you? Where is your website? Dave: My website is businessbullyshow.com. Just like it sounds. I have a T-shirt that says it. That is where you can find my podcast. That is where you can talk about advertising and see where my next events are, things of that nature. I also do discovery calls, and people can sign up for those by going to bit.ly/bullycall. I am all about being as transparent as possible. If you are on YouTube there is 2.4 million viewers who watch what I do. If you are on iTunes or Spotify or iHeartRadio, you can find me. I am just about being there. One thing I have realized, and I am sure way before the Internet happens because I was probably the first generation who had access to the Internet, you had to get out here and shake hands and kiss babies and campaign for business. A big part of it is that the tool has changed. That is what we need to do. Just get out here and be as present as we possibly can to help as many people as we possibly can. Hugh: You are passionate. It’s really hard to come back to what you said earlier, to be politically correct and honest. Be direct, be passionate. This podcast is called Orchestrating Success: Converting Your Passion to Profit. There is some substance underneath your passion. You got a direction. You have products. You’ve got value that you give people. I think it’s really important to move past the polite talk and to challenge people. You know what? You and I have talked about this before, but you’ve carefully screened people before you are willing to give them your time. Just because people give you money does not mean you have to engage with them. You are very careful in screening people and making sure it’s a good fit, which is very refreshing. You’re online and see so many people out there going, “Hire me, hire me, hire me, I’ll change your life.” Well, I’m sorry. That doesn’t work. We have to find people who are going to excel, who are really going to take value from what we have to offer. We are going to die someday. What are they going to say about us? What are we going to put on our tombstones or our little urn there? I want something profound. As we write, when I start working with people, I got this from my colleague Ed Bogle, he says, “What will they say at your funeral? What is your epitaph?” Dave, why do people need you? Dave: I think people need me because they are spending too much time listening to people who love them to death. Your mom is not going to tell you the truth because you come from her, and if she tells you that you fail, she is basically admitting to her failure. Your daddy just wants you to be happy and get out of his face so he can watch football. Your siblings don’t care one way or the other; they have their own problems and their own families. Your friends don’t mind you being well, but they don’t want you to do better than they are. So you have all these people around you who love you to death and don’t want to see you succeed, or they want you to succeed but they don’t know anyone in their family who has done that. My parents both were entrepreneurs to a certain extent. My father had a corner store with his brothers. My mom had a hair salon in Philadelphia. But my father was in law enforcement by trade, and my mother was a teacher by trade. I am one of the first full-time entrepreneurs of my generation in my family. I am the weirdo; I am the oddball. But if you go back three generations, my great-great-grandfather migrated here from India, and he opened himself up a barber shop. You have all of these different experiences, but people need me because I’m not going to lie to them. I don’t need your money. I don’t care about you emotionally. I’m married to a gorgeous woman. I have beautiful children. My mother loves me, and my father sits in an urn at my brother’s house. I’m good. I don’t need any more friends. I have the greatest friends anybody could ever imagine. So why am I doing this? Because I actually care. Sometimes, love does not show up with saying, “You know what? Here is a participation trophy just because you decided to suit up.” That’s not how this works. I am here to create champions. There is a champion inside of you that needs to be developed. I am not going to give you a trophy because you said, “Hey, I have a business. Come buy my stuff.” For what? Why should I part with my hard-earned money? Give me some reasons. That is why people need me. I am going to give you reasons to give your consumer base and your audience that you are so busy searching for and doing all the wrong things for, listening to these gurus. I am going to give you the tips to go get the audience that needs your service, that needs to see you, that needs for you to show up. I think passion needs to make a comeback. Passion is the new sexy. Hugh: Oh man. How do I call you every morning and get a shot in the arm? Wooo. Dave: You are going to have a sore arm after a while, brother. Hugh: A whole host of people who have checked in on Facebook, including our friend Joe who connected us. We record this podcast live for people listening on Orchestrating Success. We record it live at random, and people join us on Facebook. I’m blessed to be in this conversation with you, man. You have a manner about you that you connect with the listener with very specific points in very tangible information. Very tangible results face thinking. Let’s cut out the BS. Let’s get to the point. I like that. That is awesome. That is awesome. Who needs you? Why do they need you? Who is the best person to work with you? Dave: The best person to work with me is somebody who really is in one of two places. Either they are entrepreneurs currently but they’re struggling. Or they are at a certain level and can’t get past that. When I say entrepreneurs who are struggling, some of them have businesses that are doing well, or they have a little side hustle or hobby, but they haven’t figured out how to do that and break the chains of the cubicle matrix they are stuck in. I am here to show you how to realistically do this. I am not going to sit up here and do what most radical rebel coaches do and say, “Oh, go burn the boats. Go in there and quit today.” No, that’s stupid. You still have to eat. But if we have a six-month exit strategy where I am showing you, “This is where you ramp up your advertising. This is the message you need to convey. These are the types of videos you need to do. This is why, even though I don’t like Snapchat, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, any of these social media platforms, you need to be on them because you want to be where the people are.” I am here to show you these things that are my gifts. Listen, I don’t tell you how to be a fitness trainer. I am not a fitness trainer. Look at me, Hugh. I don’t know if you know this or not, but I like a sandwich. I live in cheesesteak land for a reason. It’s convenient to go grab one. I can pull one outside of my door and eat it right now. But what I am good at is identifying when you are making excuses and identifying how your unique selling proposition is going to change the lives of the people who hear it. That’s important. We need to understand that until we begin to get inside of ourselves, and what my good friend Les Brown calls our power voice, and have that resonate with people, people are going to lose. I’ll give you this. I get maybe a good 50 emails each week from people in South Africa, Amsterdam, Switzerland, Wisconsin, Philadelphia, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina saying, “I saw a video you did,” or “I heard a podcast you were on,” or “I saw this article about you, and I want to let you know that when I started doing some digging, you made me look at myself. Because of you, you helped me change my life.” But if I was arrogant, Hugh? What if I just sat back and said, “I am going to do the same thing I’ve been doing since I was nine years old. I am going to spin records and interview rappers. That is what I want to do.” If I did that, there would be a bunch of people who would not be living in their purpose. That would be selfish. It’s not about Hugh Ballou. It’s not about Dave Anderson, the Business Bully. It’s about who we are here to serve. Jesus wasn’t here for Jesus. Jesus was here for the people, for God to love the world. Moses was here to free slaves. David was here to kill Goliath and be king. You can’t do these things if you don’t show up. Martin Luther King, it wasn’t about the dream, it was about moving forward civil rights and debunking systemic white supremacy for black people and people of color and oppressed people in America. It’s not about the man; it’s about the message. It’s about making sure all the messengers who resonate with those particular messages can get out there. That’s why I’m here. Hugh: Wow. You know, you have this unique ability to focus on the essential messages. There is no noise in what you’re saying. It’s very strategic. I think people who qualify to work with you are quite blessed because you can impact their lives and then they can impact lots of other lives. It must be really satisfying to you to know that you impact a whole lot of people through the people that you empower. Am I right? Dave: Absolutely. My favorite client story is a woman named Kelly. I met Kelly at a business meeting. There were a bunch of entrepreneurs sitting around a round table, and I was asked to give some advice to these people. This woman says, “I have this business, but I am spending this money on this, that, and the other thing.” I don’t know what it is for you, Hugh, but my process, because I am working in my gifts, I black out. I will go on a stage and speak, and I will ask the presenter. Our friend Joe will tell you. I ask, “Was that good?” He’ll go, “Are you kidding me? Look at them. They’re happy.” I’m like, “What did I say?” He’s like, “What do you mean what did you say? You said this that and the other thing.” I’ll go back and watch the tape. Wow. It’s not me; it’s something inside of me that comes through me. I blacked out on this girl, and when I came to, my buddy tapped me on the shoulder and I broke out of whatever it was I was spitting at her. Her tears were just falling down her face; I felt so bad that I handed her a tissue. I said, “Look, I’m not here to hurt you, but I guarantee you that if you listen to me, you will make more money than you will ever make.” Sure enough, she went from having a business that was doing $800-900 a month to $10-20,000 a month selling lingerie for plus-size women. She did not realize her power. While that may seem like a very slow sub-niche of a niche market, there is a whole lot more women who are qualified as plus-size than there are who can fit in the Victoria’s Secret line. You have to have somebody come along and show you that. I did not come out of my mother’s womb knowing how to speak and tie my shoes. I learn those things. I am the son of a teacher, so I want to teach. I think that that’s impactful. When people get satisfied, when people are able to tell their bosses to jump off a bridge, they feel empowered. They are in control of themselves. They are not subject to all the many things that are out here in the world. They are able to really be free and breathe and spend time with their kids. I do what I do so I can take my kid to daycare and pick her up every day because I’ll be damned if either of my children don’t know that their daddy was there for them. That’s why I do this. I am not the only daddy or parent, I am not the only husband or wife out here who wants that for themselves. I am there to get those people, and those people will reach other people, and then at the end of the day, people will truly live in their purpose. That’s all I want out of life. I can die happy knowing that people have lived in their purpose because of some small thing I said or did. Hugh: Wow. I’ve clarified- I work with so many people who cannot articulate why people need them. You are very clear on your target market. You are very clear on the impact of your work. Those are what I find missing in a lot of thought leaders like you, people who are authors, coaches, consultants, speakers. There are a lot of people doing those things. Very few of those people can cut through to the chase like you’re doing right now. Do you realize how rare these gifts are? Dave: You know, I’m coming to that the longer I do this, the more I realize how rare it is. I am going to say this really quickly because this is your interview, not mine. There are a bunch of people out here who are frauds. There are a bunch of people who are snake salesmen or saleswomen. There are a bunch of people out here who are as fake as a $3 bill covered in honey mustard. I don’t know why people don’t do the research, but if you Google the Business Bully or Dave Anderson, you will find things. You will find that everything I am saying is true. I don’t have to lie because I don’t have good memory. I don’t. I know what it is that I do. The problem with this industry—Hugh, I am going to say it because you are too polite and kind, and maybe one day in a couple of years, I will be like you. But right now, I am full of fire and vinegar. The great thing about the Internet is that anybody can get on here and express themselves. The problem with the Internet is that anybody can come on here and express themselves. Any chucklehead can write a book and any dumb schmuck can build a website. Anybody can call themselves a coach. What happens is you and I, who are legitimate individuals, who actually give geometric and definitive results for our clients day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, get lumped in with the rest of these charlatans. Nobody wants to call them out. Hello, that day is over. I am calling you out when I see you. I don’t care. Most of you are not worth the paper you were printed on, and most of you ought to be ashamed of yourselves and should jump off a bridge immediately, with zero bungee cord, so that you can make room for those of us who are actually out here trying to impact people. I’m sorry. It’s not nice, but it’s the truth. Hugh: No, no. You don’t want to be polite. I’m sorry you think I’m polite because I’m not. I’m an equal opportunity offender. I’m just trying to be a good, faithful interviewer. But thank you. That’s a compliment. I do respect people. However, my favorite quote is by a Christian theologian, “Comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable.” Dave: Amen. Hugh: I commonly do that in my keynotes. I like for people to be uncomfortable. That is where we are going to grow. That is where we’re going to grow. Tell us another story of somebody you worked with that really touched you, and they took your wisdom and did something significant. Give us another story. Dave: There was a kid I knew. Let’s call him Chuck. Chuck was a personal trainer. Chuck had amazing skills. He was handsome. He was smart. He was very talented in helping people achieve results with their bodies and nutrition, the whole nine. He was working for a company, and that company had him as a trainer, but he could only work so many hours. He couldn’t get into the gym after hours. He couldn’t work with clients. I built out a structure for him, and within 90 days, he quit his job and is making six figures, going on seven, helping high-end clients with their businesses. The reason we’re not working together right now is that there were certain things that took time. Because there were certain things that happened very quickly, he thought everything should happen very quickly. I said, “If you just hang in there, you will see something great.” He wouldn’t hang in there; he thought he could go off on his own. He is doing very well, don’t get me wrong. Once you feel like you’ve got what you need, cool. But be prepared to deal with that. He got what he needed, he left, and the next day, I was on national television. He hit me up and said, “I didn’t know.” I said, “You should have listened.” I believe in helping people do what they do. I’m not out to create an army of Dave Andersons. I wouldn’t want that. My wife would beg you to kill me if I did that. I’m a big believer in, like Les Brown said, if you have somebody that is fighting for their limitations, you let them keep them. Yes, he is making money. Yes, he is doing well. Could he be bigger? Yes. Could he have several bestselling books? Yes. Could he have had a growth in his online fitness program? Yes. But he chose not to. Even in success, sometimes a taste of success overpowers the hunger for a global domination perspective. I think that that’s important. I could sit up here and tell you success stories all day in that it is a success story. But I am also going to have to temper the success stories with the reality of what happens when people get a little too gung-ho. Hugh: Amen. Les Brown is a dear friend of mine as well. There is an interview I did with him on thenonprofitexchange.org. You might be interested in checking out thenonprofitexchange.org. I had to follow Les on stage twice in my career. We talked about that. He chuckles about it, Okay, yeah, Hugh Ballou, you’re on stage, and Les Brown was your opening act. He’s a brilliant man. We’re doing the Les Brown Foundation. He is going to have programs to prevent people from going back to prison over and over again. This is intense stuff, and I have learned that people listen to shorter podcasts more, so we’re going to taper it off here. You and I have a lot more conversations to have. Dave: Absolutely. Hugh: We will schedule things we can do together in tandem. It’s just inspiring to be in your presence. I’d like you to think about a closing tip or thought or challenge for people. So Dave, what do you want to leave with people? Dave: I would say this. Most people are not honest, especially with themselves. So I challenge you to be honest as to why it is that you’re not showing up in all the places you want to. Mostly, it’s not because you’re scared of the camera. It’s not because you’re worried about the way that you look. What you’re really worried about is there are a bunch of people who are going to show you, hear you, get that message, and you won’t be able to control the narrative on how they talk about you. We have to get over that. On the other side of people’s opinions is your destiny, is your passion, is your freedom, is your money. So I challenge you if you’re ready to make something happen. You can feel free to reach out at bit.ly/bullycall. I am very easy to find. Bit.ly/bullycall. Or you can text “business bully” to 31996. That is “Business bully” to 31996. Hugh: 31996. The word is business bully. Dave Anderson, you are brilliant. I am pleased to know you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with my audience today. Dave: Thank you for allowing me to share. This has been very therapeutic. Now I am going to go murder a sandwich.

Hugh Ballou Interviews Dave Lucas about his Misfit Entrepreneur concepts and systems. The Interview Transcript Ep 53, Interview with Dave Lukas Hugh Ballou: Dave Lukas has this podcast called the Misfit Entrepreneur. Dave, you and I met virtually, and we are getting acquainted. What I have seen so far is quite impressive. Say a little bit about your background and your business, and then about this podcast, this Misfit Entrepreneur. Talk about yourself and your background and what the inspiration was for launching this great podcast you have. Dave Lukas: Thanks, all good stuff. Thanks for having me, and thanks everyone for tuning in. A little bit about my background just so you guys know. I have always ben an entrepreneur, ever since I was a kid. Like most people, I did the lawn thing, but I did a direct sales business at my college and took it to another business after college that I brought to Columbus, Ohio, where I live now. I split time between Columbus and San Diego. I am in the health and wellness arena. I did that for a year. Then I had this crazy idea. I either wanted to run or own a Fortune 500 someday. So early 20s, right? Everything you can accomplish. I got to get up from the ground floor with one of these and really understand it. One of the best places to do that is on the sales side of things. If you look at a lot of CEOs, a lot of them are salespeople. Sales is a skill that no matter who you are in life and no matter what you do, you really need to understand and utilize. One of the things I talk about when I do speeches is that sales is one of the most innate, natural abilities we all have. If you have a spouse or a significant other, you sold yourself to them, and they sold themselves to you. It’s something that we do naturally. We don’t think of it to be more deliberate at it. I went to school essentially. I worked for a top 50 training program, Fortune 500. Spent a number of years there. Had a lot of success. I was Rep of the Year and all that in my early days. Then I became a turnaround manager and a trainer nationally for all of their rookies. During that time, I continued my entrepreneurial efforts. I continued to invest. I continued to build up other businesses. When you are successful in sales, that gives you autonomy, which allowed me to do that. One of those companies I invested in and helped to guide and mentor in my free time was a company called Grass Technologies. It was a very unique company in the data intelligence space in the travel industry. Anything can be learned. That is one thing I learned. Going from where I was and going to the travel sector is a completely different world. We grew that business from basically nothing to- Nowadays I spend a lot of time there, and it is my largest business. Inc 5000 multi-year winner. We do business in over 100 countries. It’s been a lot of fun. We have that. I do some other things, where I teach and speak and train. I work in the investment side of things, and I am part of a small hedge fund. Then I started this podcast. It’s called the Misfit Entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur, that makes sense. People are like, “Oh yeah, you’re an entrepreneur. You started a podcast to learn the unique traits of entrepreneurs.” The reason I did it is not what most people think. The reason I did it came about three years ago when my wife and I went to China to adopt our daughter. We adopted our daughter, and we get home, and she is 18 months old at that time. In my youth, I spent a lot of my extra time, weekends and evenings, learning. I trained with Zig Ziglar, God rest his soul; Brian Tracy, who wrote the cover quote for my bestselling book; and Tony Robbins, all of these guys, billionaires and millionaires. I spent about five years spending every waking moment that I had learning from these people. That is how that book came about. Fast forward multiple years later, and I have this 18-month-old. I am a dad now. As we are starting to become a family, all of these things are bubbling up that I forgot that I had learned throughout time. I learned from this person or that person. I’m going, Oh my gosh. How much of this stuff have I forgotten over the years? The idea for the Misfit Entrepreneur came about because at that point I said, “I have to have a way where I can immortalize these lessons and this amazing advice from people like you and others throughout the world for her to have even after I am dead and gone.” That is how it started. Do I do a blog? Do I do a video blog? Do I do an email address that she get when she’s older that there is all this stuff in there for her? I am a big listener of podcasts; I know a lot of people are. They are pretty mainstream nowadays. I love the medium because you can take it anywhere. You can take it to the car, to the gym, while you work. You can have it anywhere, which is different than a video or a blog where you have to be present in viewing and reading. You can’t take it to all these places. So that is why we settled on a podcast. We launched in September of last year. It’s been a blessing. Now we are in over 50 countries, and we have had amazing guests. It’s been a lot of fun, and it’s helped to bring this amazing information that these people have, these secrets, their misfit trades that set them apart and helped other people learn and put to use in their lives. That is a brief background on all that fun stuff. Hugh: That’s a very different paradigm than a lot of people I talk to, as you might imagine. I love that. We had a conversation before we went live today and discovered that we have a lot more synergies. I am glad to have you today as a guest. My audience I would classify as social entrepreneurs. They are running a business, or they are running a church, synagogue, or local community foundation. The commonality is that we all are establishing good, sound business principles in the organizations that we run. I want to probe some of that with you because the things that make us independent as entrepreneurs also cripple us so we don’t fit. Some of the things we need to learn are things we don’t yet know we need to learn. I love what you talked about in keeping track of all the things we have been exposed to. We have learned so many things we have forgotten a lot of them. I love the podcast. Like you mentioned, I love keeping current on my skills. You may know that I spent 40 years as a musical conductor. The composer/conductor Ralph Vaughan Williams said that music did not reveal all of its secrets to just one person. I get tidbits from a lot of other people, which is great. As entrepreneurs, we tend to go to the shiny object when we need to stay focused. I think podcasts are a focus for me. I am an entrepreneur. I am guilty. Seems like you have this bestselling book. What is the book about? What’s the title of it? Dave: The book is called The Ten-Year Career. It came out in 2012/2013. The idea behind that book was, Okay, I spent all this time learning all this stuff. How do I condense it down so it’s useful? It came about because I had this giant binder of all these lessons, notes that I have learned along the way. When I was working on one of my businesses or with someone else or just in general, I would pull this thing out and go, “Hey, I learned that from Tony. Check this out. Here is what we can do here with this.” Eventually, enough people said that I should distill it down and put it in a book. The biggest challenge for a lot of people is where to start. Where do I start, and how do I get that momentum? The book was written as a way to help people, whether you are just starting out, or maybe you have lost your way and are looking for that road map or path to help guide you to get yourself to higher levels of achievement. The book title, The Ten-Year Career, is based upon the fact that my goal was always to be at a position to where if I wanted to, I didn’t have to work within ten years. I am happy to say that I achieved that two years ago. To me, that was my goal. But it was the principles that had to be put into place consistently done over time to do that. One thing I found about success in very high achieving and high-performing people that consistently win, it’s not that they do one thing extremely better than anyone else—sometimes you have those cases—but really it’s they do a lot of things just incrementally better than the others. And they do that consistently. That is what’s in here. It starts off with: Who are you? How can you find clarity and purpose in who you are? Then it goes to helping you set goals for yourself so that you have something to go after and achieve. A lot of people don’t write down what they want. They don’t know what they want. You have to have that clarity to find it. Then we go into helping you get the skills you need along the journey. I talk about sales earlier. There is a chapter on that in there. There is a chapter on managing your finances. Productivity and time. Structure = freedom. I know that sounds weird, but the more structure you put into your life, the more freedom you will gain by it. That is something that is important. A lot of people don’t plan anything. They don’t plan their days or weeks, and they don’t plan for their success. We have all heard that cliché that if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. That is really true because being structured, understanding where you are going and how you are going to get there, makes it so much easier. That’s all in there. Then we have traits of highly sucessful people I have met along the way that are really stand-out things like what it means to be tenacious and what that looks like and examples of that, what it means to be committed. We go through all that. At the end, we share some unique ways—even from 2012 or 2013, they are still relevant today–that you can start a business before, if you have never started or created a business before, here are some unique things you can be doing. Ways of looking at things that are different to help you get ahead. Hugh: I am laughing because you were so in sync with these messages. We have talked very little. It’s like in James Allen’s book A Man Thinketh, he says, “We don’t attract what we need. We attract what we are.” The reason failing to plan is a cliché is because it’s true. I want to make sure people know. Is it ten number or ten word? Dave: Word. Hugh: The Ten-Year Career. Is it Dave Lukas? Dave: It’s D. M. Lukas. Hugh: D. M. Lukas. Dave: I am the weird guy that spells it with a K. I am the one guy out there still, I think. Hugh: I misspelled you. How did I do that? Dave: No worries. It’s very common. Hugh: I’m sure they can find it on Amazon. It’s been a bestseller. What is a link to find you online? Dave: You can type in Dave Lukas in Google and find a lot of things. I am on all the social media as themisfitentrepreneur. Misfitentrepreneur.com. You will find everything if you go there. Hugh: People ask me how to find you. Did you try to Google me? I’m all over, as are you. A couple of interesting things. Thank you for explaining about the book. I got to get me one. There is a journey in writing a book of self-discovery. It’s self-empowering when you are trying to share with other people. Did you find that true? Dave: It’s my first book. It took me two years. Advice for writing a book if you are going to write a book: Ready, fire, aim is okay. You can always revise it. I really wanted it to be perfect in every way, so I went around and around and around. My wife knew me pretty well. In the beginning, I would dabble in it a little bit and go away from it. She knew me pretty well and said, “When you are truly committed to it, you’ll do it.” On those words, that was literally about a year. A little less than a year later, it was done, published, out. It is a journey. You discover things about yourself and who you are. You learn about things that you didn’t even think about. Especially when you are learning to write, most people aren’t professional authors. I’m not either. But you start to study how to get a message across succinctly. That transfers into other areas of your life. When you are on a meeting like this, don’t say too many words; only a few will do to get a message across. It’s interesting going through that process. You learn a lot, you grow a lot, and you discover some things in yourself you never knew you had. Hugh: Those are good words. That book seems like it would be valuable. As soon as I hang up, I’m getting it. In that explanation, there is something that came to my mind. A month ago, I had on a colleague of mine, Dr. David Gruder, organizational and developmental psychologist. We were talking about the shadow, that part of us that holds us back. You and I talked a little bit about mindset. This whole thing about sales, it requires a different mindset because we have the wrong idea about sales. I do work with lots of different kinds of entrepreneurs, including those who are clergy. They don’t believe in sales. What is evangelism if it’s not selling something you believe in? You have a need, you find value, and you connect people with that value. One of the people I want to have on here who is a friend of mine is Bob Circosta, who sold over $11 billion worth of stuff on the home shopping channels. He hates to sell, but he teaches people how to sell, and he is brilliant at it. It’s about the transfer of feelings, but it’s also offering people value. Would you speak to this? How do we reframe our thinking? The book that I referred to As a Man Thinketh has a lot of really meaty stuff. What does Dave Lukas have to say on how we need to reposition our thinking no matter what kind of entrepreneur we are and what kind of organization? I think it starts with us reframing our thinking. Would you agree? Dave: It is. This is one of my favorite topics to talk about because it’s where most people struggle the most. They actually don’t realize a lot of things about the way that they think. It’s funny you just mentioned a pastor or priest having trouble selling. What are you doing giving a sermon? When you are giving a sermon and doing the verse of the day and explaining that and trying to connect that with people’s lives so they take it and make a difference with it, that’s what you’re doing. You’re selling them on understanding that sermon. You don’t look at it that way, but that’s what you’re doing. We’ll take a step back from that and a step back even from sales. Here is the thing that a lot of people don’t realize about the way that they think. I’ll ask you: When the baby comes out of the womb, is their success and path in life already predetermined? When they get out of the womb, do they say, “Beautiful baby. Too bad they will never make more than $35,000.” Hugh: We tend to do that as irresponsible adults. We put limits on others, which sometimes they accept and sometimes they don’t. Dave: What you just said makes a lot of sense. If you guys think about that, you really come out with a clean slate, but we actually are conditioned to be who we are in life. A lot of that conditioning is great. Sources: parents, friends, media, culture, school, religion, everything has an impact on who we are. The thing that people don’t realize is that we have two minds. We have our subconscious mind and our conscious mind. Our conscious mind is what you use when you think to give an answer, like I am thinking it through now. That is your conscious mind. But your subconscious mind is actually the most powerful part of the brain. It is the animal part of the brain. It is the part that runs you without you even knowing it. How else do you think to drive a car or throw a ball? In a lot of situations, you just react. What you say is a reaction. You don’t really think. You say it, you do it. That is your subconscious. What the subconscious gets its information from is all that conditioning over the years. Basically it files that away in your brain, and when scenarios or instances come up, it takes that reaction or that way of thinking and applies it. You at home, how many things do you say because that is what you learned from your parents, or maybe things you do because that is what my parents did. That is all conditioning. The cool thing is there are a lot of cool things that come from that, cultural things, traditions, etc. But there are things that come into our lives that if you stopped and thought about it, you may not actually accept about yourself. You may think that $50,000 is a lot of money, or you say that, but when you step back and think about it, you say, “That is actually not a lot of money. I think $500,000 is a lot of money.” Or so on. The trick that people have to learn is what I call really the awareness factor. Awareness is the catalyst to change. Once you understand that you have been conditioned to be certain ways, then you have the choice to keep them and keep using them in your life or recondition yourself for what you want. I’ll give you a great example as to how the mind can quickly be reconditioned. Have you ever wanted or saw a car that you really like? Maybe a cherry red whatever. It’s amazing how after you put that to memory and say, “I really like that car. I want that car in that color,” how much you see them on the roads. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience before or seen that, but it happens. I remember when I first saw an Aston Martin on the roads here, I said, “That’s the car.” It’s the Vanquish. I went home and looked it up. That is on the goal board. That is the car. I had never seen an Aston Martin before that. But the next week, I saw four of them on the roads. That is your subconscious. Once you give it something, for all the credit we give it, it’s actually pretty dumb. It’s the animal part of the brain. It filed it away and started looking for it and pointing it out to me. It’s the same in all aspects of your life, from your financials to your relationships to everything. This is where once you are aware of this, you can start to do a few things. The first thing that I talk about with people is you have to develop what I call your inner coach. This is that little voice inside of your head that catches you when you go to start saying something or you go to start doing something that you don’t agree with in your life. It could be something that you learned from somewhere else or you have done over and over again but you realize that it’s not you. That’s not who I want to be. And you start to realize it. It doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a lifelong skillset that you have to do with this to start to change the way you think. What you do is you do what I call stop, ask, and choose. You stop yourself in the moment, ask yourself, “Is this the thought or reaction I want to have?” and choose the path forward that you feel is best for you. When you start to do that, you recondition that brain. When it comes to finances, if your success and wealth path is set to a certain number, you can start to retrain your brain to set it to a higher number. Ask yourself how you will get there. That activates the side of the creative brain and allows you to start growing and learning and taking the steps you need to go to those higher levels. It’s not easy for anybody. But you look at a lot of the most successful people in the history of the world. You will see that this trait runs common with them. Whether they figured it out or were just naturally gifted at it, this is something that they truly understand. They truly understand how to have true choice and gain control over their thoughts and the way they do things. I have a couple more points to that, but I will stop there if you have any questions. Hugh: Well, I do. I do. Or some observations. I am still in sync with all of that. Three weeks ago, on an interview like this, I was at the Napoleon Hill Foundation, which is a two-hour drive from me, speaking to the executive director, who used all of Napoleon Hill’s philosophies, running a bank or other businesses. He is now the executive director for the legacy of Napoleon Hill with his foundation. What you are talking about, the things that Napoleon Hill discovered when he interviewed all of these famous people, I never thought about whether they were aware of it or not, but they all had this trait as positive image failure was not an option. It was the subconscious that you program with your conscious. Bob Proctor speaks about that a lot. You are sort of springboarding on Napoleon Hill’s writings and philosophies, aren’t you? Dave: None of this stuff is new. In fact, it was around way before Napoleon Hill. Aristotle was talking about this stuff. Hugh: Amen. Dave: It’s been packaged in different ways over the years that at the time made the most sense for people to understand it based on where they were in life. Napoleon Hill was a wake-up call to a generation essentially. When he wrote that, he packaged it in a way that really helped people to grasp it and be in sync with it and become aware so they really could put it into effect in their lives. We have seen it in other ways. We have seen The Secret and other things that have been packaged around this concept. But at the very root core of it, it comes down to a very simple process: your beliefs lead to the way you think. The way you think leads to the way you feel, the way you feel leads to your actions, and ultimately your actions lead to your results. Now if you take out the middle of that, you get beliefs lead to your results. What you truly believe ultimately becomes your results. What you focus on in life becomes your life. This is where the clarity is so important to understand what you truly believe. How many people take the time to stop and ask themselves what they truly believe? What do I truly believe about my life? What do I truly believe about my finances, my relationships, my family, my spirituality? What do I truly believe? We live in such a fast-paced society nowadays. We stop the microwave with three seconds left, I often joke. We can’t wait those three seconds anymore. Ding on the phone and we are automatically trained. Talk about subconscious conditioning. The phone dings and we are automatically on it. When do we have time? Or does it not feel like we don’t have time to stop and ask ourselves what we truly believe in life? Take two hours and put pen to paper on what you truly believe. It will change your life. What you truly believe will turn to actions in your life. You have to constantly remind yourself of this stuff. You can’t just do it once and be done with it. Again, what happened in the news yesterday? Anybody remember? It moves that fast. A great thing for you to do is remind yourself of these things. I will give you a simple one. I know it sounds goofy, but I have been doing it almost every day for a decade now. I have a white board in my office. When I walk in every single day, it says, “What type of attitude will I choose to have today? Great, fair, or poor.” Every morning, I have to come in and take a marker and circle which one of those I am going to have. I know it sounds rudimentary, but remember the subconscious is the animal, rudimentary part of our brain. Every day, I come in and not once in ten years have I circled fair or poor. It’s always great. When something doesn’t go right or I feel myself starting to react, that bubbling up inside you that we have, I look up there and saw that I circled I am going to have a great attitude today. I stop myself, ask myself how I want to go forward, and then choose the way that I want to do it. I can’t count how many times how having a simple board in front of me has made a difference and saved a deal or relationship or allowed me to better coach someone or make the right decision at the right times because just like everybody else, it’s a work in progress in life. I still react to things. I am not perfect; ask my wife. Little things like that make such a huge difference. Remember we started this by talking about the high-performing and successful people, they do little things incrementally better consistently. That is an example of one little one that works really well for me. Hugh: Consistently. I love that word you just slid in there. You’re talking about the structure. I laughed when you were talking early on in the conversation about having a structure in place. I am a musician. It’s a very ridged discipline. It’s mathematical and exacting. We have a structure. But because we have the structure, now we can be creative within that structure. Now we can spend our energy letting it happen. We are not spending energy trying to figure out what happens next. You’re hitting a lot of universal truths. What Napoleon Hill did was understand the laws of nature that have always existed, but he did what I would call original research by interviewing people who actually employed it. Like you said, he put it into a system that people could replicate that goes back to Aristotle and Biblical writers and other points in history. It is very consistent with all of that. He lists the attributes of true wealth. Money is the last one because it is the least important, but it is the result of all the value. The law of attraction came out of that. We are talking about that. We are also talking about programming your subconscious. That was a big part of that. Bob Proctor speaks about a lot. I don’t know if you understand or know the work of Murray Bowen. It is leadership methodology, understanding ourselves from our family of origins. We have this DNA that is imprinted into us, like software that is loaded into our computer. Unfortunately, a lot of people just use the defaults with the software and haven’t learned to program it appropriately. A whole lot of the things you are saying really ring true, no matter where we are working. I call my audience social entrepreneurs because we are not doing the corporate things. We are doing something independent. However, we have lots of liabilities. Our assets are our liabilities. The things that make us independent also penalize us. The mindset difference. You also talk about consistency. That is a huge one in my book. You also talked about having a structure in place so you know what you’re supposed to do. Your white board thing is brilliant. Napoleon Hill talks about that. Read your goal and set your attitude. He found that all these people could not hold a positive and negative idea simultaneously. You’re hitting a lot of the strong points. These are all in your book, are they? Dave: Yeah, a lot of this is discussed. I have expanded upon it since then, but much of what I just said is in there. Even the structures side of it, you mention the structure. Once you understand this stuff, you have to have a way to systematically input it in your life. That is how you plan things and how you do little things. Every morning, Tony Robbins does something similar like this. I have my own spin on this. I do what I call my 10-minute prime. It’s ten minutes to center yourself before the day starts, especially in today’s age. We are getting hit from all sides of all kinds of things throughout the day. It moves so much faster than it did in Napoleon Hill’s time or even ten years ago. It’s funny. A lot of people don’t even think about this, but the iPhone is 10 years old just this year. Doesn’t it seem like it’s been a lot longer than that? It’s amazing where we have come and even more amazing where we are going to be a few years from now, let alone ten years from now. Having the ability to put that consistent structure in your life, that is what I do with my ten-minute prime. I do three things I’m grateful for for the day. I center myself around gratitude and start my day with gratitude. That makes such a huge difference. If you have ever had a day where you start off late and it snowballs from there, and everything seems like nothing goes right throughout the day, it’s because that negative start has compounded in your subconscious and continues into everything else throughout the day. Having a process like a ten-minute prime where you stop and say I’m thankful for this or that, I believe in this, and this is a great thing for those in the world today, that gets your mind in a whole different way. It stops that negative thinking and stops things from happening like that. Hugh: That’s huge. You are slipping in some gems. I want to highlight that. You begin with a position of gratitude. There is abundance we are not grateful for, and it’s there for us to claim. I want to highlight that. Sorry to interrupt you. But that is so key. Dave: No, not a problem. I fly a lot. I am in the travel industry. I do everything from speaking. I split time between here and San Diego or my biggest office is for Grass. I am back and forth. I do a lot of flying. I am still amazed at how annoyed people get flying. You are in a seat going 550 miles an hour through the air on your laptop working or watching a movie or whatever. Come on! 100 years ago, you were on horseback trying to cross the Rocky Mountains. Come on! It’s just amazing what we have at our disposal that we take for granted. Hugh: It’s amazing. You have a lot of nuggets in this. We will transcribe this so there will be places for us to underline all of this great stuff. Dave, I knew you were great. I didn’t know you were this great. This is awesome. I could talk to you all day, but I don’t think people are going to listen to us all day. So I try to keep these interviews to a manageable length. We are on the downside of an hour here. As we wrap this up, think about what are some of the key points you want to leave people with? We are serious about changing the world. We got great stuff. We are entrepreneurs, but we are compromised by all of these things you have highlighted. What are some thoughts you’d like to leave people with so they can continue thinking? What are some things you’d like to leave people with as final thoughts? Dave: The first thing is be deliberate about your success. Take some time to plan and write down what you want. Get clear on what you want. Be deliberate about it. If you have ever had a day where you feel you have worked really hard and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it, that is pretty common. That happens because we don’t plan for it. We don’t sit there and say, “What do we need to accomplish today?” The other half of my ten-minute prime is I do the three things I need to thrive for the day. These are the three things that are going to make the biggest impacts on my world, my businesses, family, relationships, whatever it may be for that day. I take the time to think through the three most important things I can do today to further our mission and what we are doing. If you do nothing else but that, it will make such a huge difference. Be deliberate about your success. The second thing is you can never stop learning. I always say your education begins after school, whether that’s high school or college. Whatever it is, your education begins when you decide that it really begins. Take that time. I knew in today’s fast-paced world, get on a regular regiment. Read, listen to podcasts, seek out things. Anything can be learned. Whatever you don’t know, you can learn. Seek out those that have done it. The beautiful thing about today’s world is you can access all of it. Whatever you want to learn is at your fingertips, and it’s probably free. Get yourself into a mode where you are consistently learning and growing. If you are not growing, you are dying. If you are not growing yourself and your knowledge and your capabilities, then you are kind of dying. You are not reaching your true potential. Those are two things that I think are really important to anybody in success, no matter what you do, whether you are a nonprofit or in business, whether you are an athlete or in school, whatever it is. The last thing is look for those little things. Look for those little things that you can do just a little bit better than anybody else. Think about it. The 100-meter dash in the Olympics is won by 1/100/100 of a second. That makes the difference. You take inventory of your strengths, understand what you are really good at, and be deliberate there. Look for those ways to get incrementally better so it translates to a big difference for you. You will be amazed at how fast you can grow if you do that. Hugh: Wow. I loved everything that you have said in this interview, Dave. Dave Lukas, D. M. Lukas, author of The Ten-Year Career, thank you for sharing your brilliance with my audience today. Dave: Thanks for having me on. It’s been a pleasure to be with you. Any questions anybody has, I am always open. I respond to all emails that are sent to me. www.misfitentrepreneur.com. Any way that we can help, let us know. Hugh: Here we are. I sent an inquiry. Thank you so much, Dave.

In this episode, we start a new series on the different roles in Big Data. Purely by coincidence, it turns out that the winner of our raffle started a new job as a Data Engineer at the beginning of this month, so naturally we decided to invite Marcel-Jan on the show to talk about the how and why of his career move. 00:00 Recent events Dave It’s morphing time: Apache Ranger graduates to a Top Level Project https://hortonworks.com/blog/morphing-time-apache-ranger-graduates-top-level-project-part-1/ https://hortonworks.com/blog/morphing-time-apache-ranger-graduates-top-level-project-part-2/ Data-Driven User Engagement https://www.svds.com/data-driven-user-engagement/ Driving Product Engagement with User Behaviour Analytics https://www.svds.com/driving-product-engagement-user-behavior-analytics/ Jhon Using Apache Spark for large-scale language model training https://code.facebook.com/posts/678403995666478/using-apache-spark-for-large-scale-language-model-training/ Big data pioneer Cloudera reportedly planning an IPO later this year http://siliconangle.com/blog/2017/02/28/cloudera-reportedly-planning-ipo-later-year/ Google is acquiring data science community Kaggle https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/07/google-is-acquiring-data-science-community-kaggle/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/08/google-confirms-its-acquisition-of-data-science-community-kaggle/ How to use blockchain to build a database solution http://www.zdnet.com/article/blockchains-in-the-database-world-what-for-and-how/ 42:00 Big Data Roles: The starter Interview with Marcel-Jan Krijgsman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBWlpm3Sx4), winner of our raffle and by pure coincidence starting a dedicated Hadoop role on the first of this month . Ratiings for MOOCs https://www.class-central.com Hadoop safari : Hunting for vulnerabilities http://archive.hack.lu/2016/Wavestone%20-%20Hack.lu%202016%20-%20Hadoop%20safari%20-%20Hunting%20for%20vulnerabilities%20-%20v1.0.pdf Open Circle Solutions http://www.opencirclesolutions.nl/en/ 01:22:58 End Please use the Contact Form on this blog or our twitter feed to send us your questions, or to suggest future episode topics you would like us to cover.

Stand-up comedian and author Dave O'Neil talks to host Elizabeth Harris at his office at The Grandview Hotel, Fairfield, against a backdrop of motorcycles revving their engines, doors opening and closing, and phones ringing, about: His latest book, The Summer of '82, a tribute to post-VCE life in the 80s and the shenanigans of his youth How to get started as a stand-up comedian Tips for dealing with hecklers when you're performing His days performing in the band Captain Cocoa, the Devo "Energy Dome" train encounter, and how he feels about being recognized in public His upcoming TV show. Find out more about Dave's work at DaveONeil.com.au. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes or Spotify, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. Today I’m thrilled to introduce one of the funniest and most entertaining men I’ve ever had the pleasure to meet – Dave O’Neil. Dave: Gee, that’s a big introduction. I’ve met funnier. Elizabeth: There’s more Dave. Dave O’Neil has been in the business of comedy for 20 years, and is one of Australia’s most recognizable stand-up comics, having put in 15 Melbourne international comedy festivals and dozens of comedy clubs nationally. On screen you will have seen Dave as Team Captain in the ABC TV comedy quiz show Tractor Monkeys, as well as dishing out life advice in The Agony of Life, The Agony of Modern Manners, The Agony of The Mind, Can of Worms, plus messing about on Adam Hills In GorDave Street Tonight and Good News Week. He is probably most well-known for the honour of being the guest with the most appearances (over 50) on ABC TV’s ever popular Spicks & Specks. Dave O’Neil, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Dave: Welcome. Thank you. Lovely to be here. Pleasure to be called a writer, as opposed to a comedian. Elizabeth: Well, isn’t this your fifth book? Dave: Yeah yeah, two were kids’ books. My partner and I did them in Australia before we had kids. Elizabeth: When you had more time. Dave: We had more time, that’s right. And one’s called Lies That Parents Tell You, so I wouldn’t write that now. My daughter sits up in bed reading it and quotes it back to me. Elizabeth: How old is she? Dave: Ten. Yes, it’s tough. Elizabeth: I was at Kaz Cooke’s book launch about … Dave: On girl power? Yeah, she’s great. I’ve got to buy that book! Elizabeth: So Dave, you’ve been through so much in your career, but today I want to concentrate on your hilarious book, The Summer of ’82. Dave: Sure. Elizabeth: It’s a real feel-good book, and you cover some intense themes. Discipline. Masculinity. Sexuality. Mateship. Stalking. Dave: Stalking – that’s right. I followed a girl in Mildura. Back then it wasn’t known as “stalking”; it was known as “unrequited love”. Sexuality – there’s not much sexuality going on in there, I can tell you that. There’s a lack of activity in that department, that’s for sure. Elizabeth: You were talking about how you were giving advice to 17-year-old virgins. Dave: That’s right. A little girl at school would ask me for romance advice. I was like, that’s not who you go to for romance advice. You see, I was a nice guy, so the girls talked to me. Elizabeth: We like nice guys. So getting back to this book: What inspired you to write it, and what’s your favourite memory from summer? Dave: I always wanted to write a memoir from the 80s, and I wrote a few chapters and put it aside. I saw that TV show This is England on SBS, about the young guys growing up in the Housing Commission area, and I thought I’ve got to write something like that, because that’s in my era. But their show ended with incest and murder, whereas that never happened to me, so I thought why not write a more positive recollection of that time. So I wrote a few chapters and put it aside. And then my son started high school, and so you go to the local high school and it brought back all these memories from when I was in high school. Elizabeth: At Mitcham High? Dave: I went to Mitcham High, yeah. Back then we had a choice of the tech or the high school, and if you were Catholic, you went to Catholic school. We weren’t Catholic. So now, and I’m talking about the government schools, not the private schools – you can choose from 3 or 4 around here, so you go to this school or that school, and they’re all the same basically. They haven’t changed much since 1982. They look the same. You’ve got the oval, the canteen, big classrooms, kids sitting around, so they haven’t changed at all, so I thought I should write that book again. It brought back all those memories, and so my son started school, and that’s why I did it. That’s why. Elizabeth: Now we know. Dave: It’s just something to do. As comedians, we’ve got to have something to do, apart from studio gigs. Elizabeth: That’s good. So talking a bit about your children, you mentioned your parents Kev and Joyce – “Joyce the Voice”. Dave: Yep, “Joyce the Voice”. Elizabeth: And what I’m wondering now is, are you parenting your children differently from how you were parented then? Dave: Definitely, definitely. We got hit for a start. Elizabeth: What with? Dave: A belt. So Kev would get very angry – it’s in the book – he would get very angry, come running in in a singlet, trying to hide his nether regions, swinging a belt above his head, and whack us in the ... Elizabeth: My dad had a strap up on the fridge. I think we had a very similar upbringing. Dave: I don’t hit my children, but obviously parenting your kids back then was a bit easier, because you’d just say “I’ll hit you”, and that was a full stop to the conversation, whereas all I can do is yell at them. Elizabeth: How about cracking some jokes – does that work? Dave:  Yeah, crack some jokes, try and alleviate the situation, but my daughter in particular doesn’t like that. Elizabeth: Is that because she’s heard them all before? Dave: Yeah, she’s heard them all before. “It’s not funny Dad!” My mum and dad were pretty involved with us. My dad was a Scout leader and staff, so we spent a fair bit of time with him. He was a good role model, and Joyce was introvertly involved in our lives. But he’s even more involved these days – at school pickup and all that. There’s a lot more dads involved now. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic, so you’ve got that support as well. When we met at your book launch, you told me that you only know comedians. Dave: It’s true. I don’t know any writers really. Elizabeth: Well, you know me. Dave: I know you. And I know Arnold ... who lives around here, who wrote Scheherezade Cafe. He's famous! (Ed: Cafe Scheherazade by Arnold Zable) Elizabeth: Maybe you can introduce me to Arnold. Is that like Arnold on Happy Days? Dave: (Laughs) He’s had a book out called Fido – the Box of the Fido. Elizabeth: I can’t believe I made Dave O’Neil laugh. Dave:  So I see him on the street here, in Fairfield, and I talk to him about writing and stuff. Elizabeth: That brings me to something about fame. You’re a very famous star. Dave: Not that famous. Elizabeth: Well, we think you are. So, what we want to know is, do you like being recognized when you’re out and about, or does fame have a downside? Dave: No, my level of fame is pretty small, so people like Dave Hughes or Glenn Robbins, or Carl Barron for instance – they can get hassled all the time. Elizabeth: Well, in my network, I have a number of people who would love to meet you. Dave: Really? Well, tell ’em I’m around. Elizabeth: And they’re going to be really disappointed that here we are, at the Grandview in Fairfield – it’s a stunning place, gorgeous building, lovely people. Dave: They’re nice people here. Elizabeth: Michael? Dave:  Michael and Noah, yep. Elizabeth: Jenny? Dave: Michael, Noah and Jenny – they’re all the higher level management here. Elizabeth: They are, and they made me feel very, very welcome. Made me a coffee. Smiled and when I offered to pay, wouldn’t take my money. It’s fantastic! Dave: Ah that’s good. I didn’t tell them – you tell someone and they pass it on. It’s all on my tab, probably. My level of fame is not that high. Occasionally when you go interstate – the more you go interstate like Queensland – people get excited about you, but certainly around Fairfield Road, no one cares about you. Elizabeth: Well, they could have chimed some…”Captain Cocoa”… Dave:  What, with the band? That’s right. Well when the band broke up, someone did say, “How is Dave O’Neil going to be famous now?” Ambition for fame… Elizabeth: Let’s stop right there. Was it to meet girls? Dave: Probably. Definitely not music. We went and saw bands, and just thought: Why can’t we be in a band? And the guy at high school was … famous 80s band … “hands up in the air”…I didn’t see it. And so we thought, that’s the way to meet girls, get up on stage. Elizabeth: Did it work? Dave: Well, I met Sonia, who…but anyway, definitely does work. Being in a band definitely does give you the attention you want as a teenager. We used to play at Catholic girls’ schools …dances …You didn’t have to be good; we weren’t good musicians. Elizabeth: I want to talk about Sonia. You did invest a lot of time and you write about that in your great book. Then you say you end up having a better relationship with her younger brother. Dave:  Well, that’s right. What happened was that I hitchhiked to Mildura to see her on New Year’s Eve to surprise her. And she was surprised, particularly her dad. And they gave me a lift to the caravan park where I stayed for New Year’s Eve. And the younger brother – I can’t remember his name – he was a great kid, and so we got on really well. He’s probably a year, two years younger than me. Was it Shane – Shane? So we ended up hanging out together. Elizabeth: Was it Malcolm? Dave:  Malcolm, that’s right. And we got on really well, whereas Sonia and me didn’t get on well. Elizabeth: Well, that might have something to do with the boyfriend too. Dave: She had a boyfriend who I also got on well with. Probably married, those guys. So, yeah, good times. Elizabeth: So getting back to that, I just want to know, for all those young men who think they’ll never get a date, much less have a child: you’ve had three, haven’t you? Dave: Yes. Elizabeth: What dating advice can you offer? Dave:  Dating advice? That’s a good one. It’s been so long since I’ve gone on a date…not since the 80s. Surprise question – dating advice. Ask someone out – you know a good thing is to ask someone out for a drink or for something during the day. That’s what I read on some dating websites. Ask someone out during the day where there’s no pressure. At night I think there’s a fair bit of pressure. I reckon ask them out for a drink during the day or late afternoon. Elizabeth: What about a play date? Dave: Well, if you’re parents, definitely. Elizabeth: That seems to work well. Dave: Yeah, I think in our age group - I Dave’t know how old you are, but I’m middle-aged – there’s definitely a bit of that going on with divorce and separated parents. And fair enough. Elizabeth: And there’s a really good place to go in St Kilda called St Kilda Adventure Playground. Dave: Oh, I’ve never been there! Elizabeth: It’s great. Dave: That’s great. Elizabeth: And there’s a fellow who runs it – he’s a youth worker but he’s also a musician. Adrian Thomas. Check him out – he’s fantastic. So what do you like to do in your spare time? Dave: I like to watch TV. Elizabeth: Yourself perhaps? Dave: Not myself. I don’t like watching myself. I did a spot on one of those comedy galas this year. I hadn’t seen it; I watched it, I thought it was pretty good. I’m pretty happy … I was judge of myself. Elizabeth: Of course it’s good. Dave: What happened is…so I spend a lot of time with 3 children. Once I get them to bed at night, or if I’m home during the day, I do like to watch a bit of TV. And I watch a mixture of – I watch a few movies but more serious these days. There’s a mixture of comedies and drama. I do like a good drama, you know like Vikings or something like that. Elizabeth: I’m a fan of Doc Martin myself because I’m a nurse. Dave: Oh ya Doc Martin. Is he Aspergers? Yeah, must be Aspergers. I’ve been watching … the comedy show … it’s quite funny … so I watch that, get some laughs out of that. What else have I been taping…oh yeah…West World on Foxtel. Elizabeth: Oh yes. More fun to watch yourself, you know. Dave: Watch yourself? Yeah, no thanks. Elizabeth: What I’d love you to do is share an excerpt from your great book. Dave: Sure. Do you want me to read it to you or tell you it? Elizabeth: Whatever works for you. Dave: I’ll tell you a story. This is the story of The Bomb, the laying of The Bomb. Basically, what happened was we finished school and we went home. No, we went and registered for the dole, and then we went home. Elizabeth: As we all did. Dave: And my kids said to me, “How did you know how to make bombs before the internet?” Well, we didn’t need the internet. We had this chap called Brian every night, 6 o’clock. He used to tell us everything we needed to know on the Channel 9 news every night. Elizabeth: Can you sing the song? Dave: (Sings) “Brian told me, Brian told me, Brian told me so I know everything I need to know, cos Brian told me so.” Elizabeth: Great tone. Dave: Great tone, yeah, I wasn’t just a comedian; I was a singer. So you can imagine these four teenage boys and Mum and Dad, and we couldn’t see the TV – Dad was the only one who could see the TV – we could hear it. He positioned himself in the chair that sits there. So we could hear it. We heard this Brian guy say: “Two boys were arrested today in suburban Adelaide for making homemade bombs.” We were like, oh my God, you could hear a pin drop in the house. Then he told us how to make it, by using chlorine and brake fuel. We were looking at each other, like, we’ve got chlorine – we’ve got a pool – and we’ve got brake fluid; Dad’s a Trades teacher. “So can we please be excused from the table, Dad?” Within 10 minutes we were making bombs. So the next day we got my mates together and we made – we decided to up the ante and make some really big bombs. And we made this great bomb, but we didn’t want to throw it; we were gutless like any terrorist organization, so we recruited younger, stupider people like Phil, who lived in the house backing here on the paddock. He stuck his head over and said, “What are yous guys doing?” So we got him to throw the bomb, and he threw it. And it bounced – boom, boom – and it sat there, and then it went BANG! Real loud explosion, the biggest one we’d made. It showered us with dirt, and we were all laughing, and the neighbours came out. An old lady said, “It shook the foundations of my chook shed!” And we’re like “It works!” And then the cops turned up. We heard it. The car screeched up, the doors go, a cop pulls out, and we recognized him – he went to our high school, he was one of my Dad’s Scouts from his Scout trips – obviously he was in his twenties now. Darren, his name was. And he gets out, and it was the easiest case he’d ever solved. He looked at the bomb, then he looked at our house, and he was like “Oh yeah, case solved.” And then Dad had rocked up. Dad thought Darren had just dropped in to see his former Scout leader, and Dad goes up to him and goes, “G’day Darren, how are you?” And Darren goes, “Ah, this is no social visit Kevin. Do you recognize these containers?” “Yeah, they are my sons’, sitting in the garage.” And we were like, “Oh no…” So we went to the police station. And the bomb expert from India was on the site, and he couldn’t work out what was in the bombs. And he said, “What’s in the bombs?” “Chlorine and brake fluid.” And he’s like “How’d you know how to do that?” And we went, “Brian told me.” “RIGHT, WHO’S BRIAN?!” So we sang: “Brian told me, Brian told me, Brian told me so”. I love that story. Elizabeth: Such a great tune, isn’t it. Dave: Yeah, it’s a great tune, and they used it in Sydney too, you know. Brian Henderson. Value for money. That’s in the book – lots of detail about the 70s and 80s in The Summer of ’82. Elizabeth: See, that crime history continued because being from a family of four boys … your brother Mark captured my attention. Dave:  Yeah Mark’s quite a character in the book. That’s what my mum said the other day: “You were the worst, and now you’re the best.” He’s very good with Mum and Dad. Elizabeth:  He was a slow starter. Dave: He was a slow starter, classic middle child out of four boys, and he was very naughty. Got in trouble a lot with the police and he got kicked out of school for setting fire to the chemistry lab. He was meant to be getting changed for Oklahoma I think it was, and he set fire to the lab, and got kicked out. Elizabeth: See, I’d actually like to read this – I know you don’t like to, but I do. Dave:  Go on. Elizabeth: Page 88 – you write: “We’re talking about a kid who’s kicked out of school for setting fire to the chemistry lab while he was meant to be getting changed for his part in the school musical. Hmm, there’s young Mark in the lab where he’s supposed to be putting on his farmer’s overalls to sing in Oklahoma. Wait! The chemicals are too tempting, so it’s time for a quick experiment. Va-voom! Up in flames the lab goes.” See, I have a brother who is an illustrator. His name is Bernie Harris, and he’s going to illustrate my second children’s book which will be out next year. But he’s similar to Mark in that he used to enjoy lighting the Bunsen burners in the chemistry lab. Dave:  Ah yeah, they’ve still got Bunsen burners too. Yeah, Mark was very naughty. Elizabeth: So the difference between our brothers was that he wasn’t caught. Dave:  Yeah, right, Mark was caught. Elizabeth: But you had your own way of managing Mark when your parents were away. Do you call it “MYOB Night” or “M.Y.O.B. Night”? Dave: Oh. Make-Your-Own? Make-Your-Own. Elizabeth: You were very inventive Dave, and strategic in managing your brother. Dave: Yeah, he was put in charge of us when Mum and Dad went on holidays, and at that stage he was an apprentice at Telstra. And so he would invite his mates over for a card night. And I was working in a factory and I had to get up early. And he was like … Elizabeth: You get Endangerment, don’t you? Dave: Yeah, I was working in a factory and you look at the pay packet and we got Heat Allowance and Dust Allowance. It wasn’t a great job but it was certainly a wakeup call. If I’d done the job at the start of Year 12, I probably would have studied more, I think. Should have done that. But Mark … Elizabeth: There was something about connectors and fuses, I think. Dave: Ah yeah. He invited his mates over for cards and they were having this big party, and I pulled the fuse out of the fuse box, threw it out on the lawn, and went back to bed. And the music went (mimics sound of music dying out suddenly)… And he blamed the neighbor of course. So I think when he read the book, he found out it was me. Elizabeth: It was brilliant. So that job, crawling through those … crawling through those tunnels. And the hot dog … Dave: Hot dog shop. Elizabeth: With Cindy. Dave: With Cindy. So I got a job in a hot dog shop: Alecto Hot Dogs on Toorak Road. People from Melbourne may remember. Elizabeth: Sorry I don’t remember. Dave: You don’t remember Alecto Hot Dogs ’92? Yum. So I worked at Alecto Hot Dogs with a girl named Cindy, whom I eventually went out with. She was dressed up like Boy George or Hazie Fantazie and she had all these outrageous outfits. Turned out she was from Mitcham where I lived; I’d just never met her. She was a Catholic and I was Protestant. Different sides of the railway track. So that was very exciting. But I eventually got sacked from the hot dog shop because the owner accused me of stealing the rolls and selling them to an opposition shop, when in fact I was just eating them. Elizabeth: Was there proof of that? Dave: Yeah, I was eating them. But then my twin brother was also working there – I have a twin – and he got a full-time job so I just took his job, the part-time job, and kept turning up as him. Elizabeth: Are you identical? Dave: Yeah. And they’d say “Didn’t I sack you?” And I’d say “No, that’s my brother.” He’d probably be 20 kilos lighter than me now. He lives in Switzerland; he works for Red Cross. He’s the good twin; I’m the bad twin. He’s doing good stuff. Elizabeth: The ability to make people laugh is such a gift, and not everybody can do it. Dave: Not everybody can do it. It takes practice. Eizabeth: So tell me about that. Dave: Making people laugh? When I was at school, I was pretty funny, and when I was at uni and stuff, a few girls said “You should be a stand-up comedian – you’re quite funny.” Now when you’re in your twenties and girls say that, that’s a call actually. Elizabeth: Means something, doesn’t it. Dave: Yeah it’s a call actually. You should do it. And so I always wanted to do it; I didn’t know it was a job. I had no idea, especially in the 70s – comedy wasn’t prevalent, it was fringe. There are a few comedy clubs that have started, but maybe one work function with comedians. We’ve seen comedians on Scout camps; we used to have comedians turn up to do gigs on Scout camps. So it was definitely something I wanted to do; I just didn’t know how to do it. I thought it was something too out of my reach, but turned out anyone could do it, if you wanted. Elizabeth: For those that want to launch their comedic careers, is it really the hard slog of gigs and being heckled? And if so, what’s the best way of dealing with the heckling? Dave: Well I don’t get heckled much anymore, but certainly when you start out, and you’ve got to do a lot of bad gigs – they call them “Open Mic Nights “. Anyone can get up and do it – and if you have an inkling, there’s plenty of them around now, more so than when I started. I would advise people to go and have a look first, and then approach the person running the night and ask to go on the next week and just jump up – write some stuff down and jump up and do it. The hecklers? Best thing to do with hecklers: repeat what they say. So they say: “You’re a fat idiot.” And you say “What did you say, mate? I’m a fat idiot?” Which lets everyone in the room hear what they say. Because a lot of hecklers do it so no one else can hear what they say, especially in a big room. “You’re a blah-blah.” “Oh really, mate.” And so you repeat what they say, and then you think of something really quick to say back. It doesn’t even have to be that funny; it just has to be quick. I can’t think of any Elizabeth: On the front cover of this great book, you are pictured wearing a Devo Energy Dome, Dave. Can you explain the impact it had in your life, and what the proclamation “Are We Not Men?” means? Dave: “We are Devo”. I don’t know what it means – just something they say in one of their songs – album name. Elizabeth:What it means more so on the train? Dave: Oh on the train! We went and saw Devo. They had a 9-day tour; they had a few No. 1 hits in Australia. Elizabeth: What were they? Dave:  “Whip It”. “Girl U Want”. Elizabeth: You’re not going to sing to me. Dave:  No. “Whip It cracked that whip…one sat on the greenhouse tree…” Elizabeth: Did you bring your guitar? Dave: No. I play the bass. Anyway, so we went and watched Devo. It was a great night and we were all dressed up in our best; we were slightly alternative kids. Elizabeth: Does that mean you used to wear makeup? Dave: No, I didn’t wear makeup, but I had makeup on that night because I’d been rehearsing for The Game Show, which is a TV show. They’re really cool people…and so we dressed up in our best trendy gear: nice jeans and lemon vintage jumpers. Elizabeth: Lemon. Dave: Lemon vintage; might have had a pink one if someone was in a brave mood. Then we had these homemade Devo hats, these red flower pots Mum had made. Elizabeth: Joyce made them! Dave:  Joyce made them. Crafty. And so we were on the train. We were on a high, singing these Devo songs. Unfortunately for us, The Angels and Rose Tattoo were playing the Myer Music Bowl that night, and all their fans had gone on to Richmond, so this was a classic case of “last train out”. Elizabeth: For those that weren’t kids in the 80s, tell me about The Angels and Rose Tattoo and Henry Anderson. Dave: Yeah, bald-headed guy, tattoos. They’re basically hard rock; they’re a great band. They have fans who are hardcore bogans, so guys from the outer suburbs in mullets, stretch jeans, moccasins – tough guys. Elizabeth: What sort of suburb are we talking about? Dave:  We’re talking about Moroolbark, Lilydale, Ringwood. I grew up in Mitcham – there are plenty of them in Mitcham, so they would get on the train and they would look at us and be like, “What the … who are these guys?” And so we were like their enemy. And so one of them came over and he didn’t know where to start, so he started at the shoes. “Where did you get your shoes from?” And I’m like “The shoe shop.” And he’s like “No, you got them from the op shop.” Like that was an insult. I wanted to ask “Where did you get your language from? Your nan’s wardrobe?” But I didn’t say that. I was hoping my Energy Dome would transform itself and he would get picked up and thrown out of the window. Elizabeth: But it didn’t work. Dave:  It didn’t work. And he’s like “Do you have makeup on?” And I went “Why would I have makeup on?” I did have makeup on. So I had come from The Game Show rehearsal and I did have foundation and lipstick on, and I had forgotten to take it off. And he goes “I’m going to bash you!” And at that point in the book – when I do it live, it’s different – … came through the carriage. He was the tough guy from high school – he’s now a lawyer – and he came through the carriage, and he was a big Greek guy, and he was a big Devo fan so we got on very well. And he was like “What are you…?” and he pushes this guy aside – “What are you doing to him?” And then these guys “Yeah, nah, nah…” and then we pull up at the station. They pull the door open and he fell out on the wrong side of the track - the tough guy. Classic tough guy move – they pull the door when they’re not meant to, and then jump out. He jumped out on the wrong side of the tracks and fell on the tracks so all his mates laughed: “Yer, Gary!” Elizabeth: Oh, his name was Gary. Dave:  Yeah, Gary, classic name. And then everyone was like “Are we not men?” And then we were like “Yeah, we are Devo!” and we were chanting on the train. Good times. Elizabeth: Well, the whole book’s great, cause I’ve read it cover to cover. Dave:  Oh, good on you. You’re the only one. Elizabeth: No, I’m sure many, many people will be reading it, especially after our podcast goes live. Dave: Cool. Elizabeth: No, truly. What’s your next project, Dave? Dave:  I’ve written a TV show that I’m going to film soon. I’m just doing a pilot though; it’s based on my life as a stand-up and dad, so we’re going to film it soon, in December. Elizabeth: Can you talk about the people involved in it? Dave:  Oh yes of course, it’s based on my life as a comic, so I play myself. Glenn Robbins is in the first episode - he plays himself, because I’m always trying to get him to do charity gigs. He plays himself. Brendan Fevola - he plays himself. Well, it’s all based on an incident where I did a football club gig 15 years ago, where I insulted … I didn’t know Lance Whitnall - Carlton legend – came from that club – that was his original … and his mum was there when I made it. So I’m using Brendan Fevola in this. I’m too scared to ring Lance Whitnall, let’s be honest. So I know Brendan Fevola and I rang him, and he’s like “Yeah, yeah, no worries!” So that’s going to be out next year. I’m also working on a comic novel – I’ve written a chapter of a comic novel. I had no plans to do it at all, but I got this idea, so I started writing it, and I think it’s pretty funny. Elizabeth:  Of course it’s funny – it’s you. What else would it be? Dave:  And again it’s a satire based on the entertainment industry. Elizabeth:  That would be interesting, and funny. Dave:  I’ve got to change everyone’s name. Elizabeth: Are these people going to be recognizable? Dave:  Yes. Elizabeth: Of course they are. (Laughter) Dave:   There’s an amalgamation of people in there – part me, and other people, you know. Elizabeth:  Composite characters. Dave: Composite characters, so you don’t get sued. Elizabeth: So do you have a website or blog where my listeners can find out more about your work? Dave: Yes. Just go to my Facebook page. I update my Facebook page a lot. It’s “Dave O’Neil”. But if you just go to my website – dave-o-neil-dot-com-dot-au - there’s a link to my Facebook page. I don’t update my website that much, but I do update Facebook a lot because it’s so easy. I’ve got a public page, like a fan page. I don’t spend any time on my personal page at all. Elizabeth: So Dave, this is a signature question I ask all my guests because of my book, Chantelle’s Wish: What do you wish for, for the world … Dave:  World peace. Elizabeth:  … and most importantly, for yourself? We’ll start with you. Dave:  For the world? Well, as Rodney King once said, why can’t we all just get along? Elizabeth: Good point. Dave: That’ll be good, if everyone got along. I don’t see wars stopping, but if we just looked after the – I saw this great documentary about astronauts, and this astronaut, when he was up in space, he looked at the earth and he said, “It’s like an oasis, and we’re killing it.” So, interesting from an astronaut, ‘cause they’re like military guys, you know what I mean? So if we could look after the planet, that would be good, but I don’t know what I can do, you know. I do the occasional benefit. Elizabeth: I was going to say you mentioned fundraising; let’s talk about that. Dave: More of my benefits are for schools - local schools and kinders, that’s what I do, just because I’m in that world. Elizabeth:  They must love that, though. That really helps them. Dave:  I do benefits, and I’ll tell you what, if the benefit’s no good, I just get up on stage and I say: ‘I’m here to support the cause. See you later!” Some of the people have benefits in bars, and people are talking and not listening, and I think, “What’s the point?” Elizabeth: Well, I’d like to invite you to help us out. Pat Guest – he’s a children’s author, and he has a son, Noah, who has Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy, and we are creating an event where Rosalie Ham, author of The Dressmaker, will be there. Dave:  Oh wow. Elizabeth: She’s got a book out called There Should Be More Dancing. Aric Yegudkin and his wife Masha will be dancing, so he would like to do a bit of … Dave:  Sure. Elizabeth:  And all the donations will go to Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy to help those kids, because unfortunately that is terminal. Dave: Alright. Elizabeth: And I’ve nursed a couple of those children, so it’s … Dave: Full on. Elizabeth: It is full on. Dave: Yeah, I can help with that. Elizabeth: Thank you. So thank you Dave O’Neil. Dave:  Thank you for having me. Elizabeth:  It’s been an absolute delight. Dave O’Neil, thank you very much for guesting on Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Dave:  Thank you. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]