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Service excellence emerges when businesses solve problems others avoid tackling. This week I spoke with Zohra Shroff from Sealink Logistics, a freight forwarding company that started in 2005 from a one-bedroom apartment in LA. Zohra joined the family business in 2006 and has helped grow it into a comprehensive logistics provider. Our conversation walked through the complete journey of shipping a container from Houston to India. Zohra detailed every step of the freight forwarding process, from initial customer vetting through final container return at destination. Their technology platform allows customers to book shipments, track cargo, and manage payments through their mobile app, maintaining this edge for over six years with live tracking and monthly rate updates. Their approach evolved from simply moving freight to becoming a complete logistics partner handling sea freight, air freight, and domestic transportation under one portal. When customers face problems like container mix-ups or space constraints, Zohra's team works directly with steamship lines to resolve issues rather than leaving customers stranded. This service model applies to any business where customer problems become your competitive advantage. When others walk away from complex situations, stepping in to solve them builds lasting relationships and premium pricing power. The freight forwarding industry reminded me that behind every simple transaction sits a web of coordination most people never see. Zohra's passion for helping customers navigate these complexities shows why service businesses thrive when they embrace the hard parts.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore Sealink's journey as a logistics company founded in 2005, emphasizing its deep family roots and innovative approach to the shipping industry. I discuss the complexities of the international shipping process, including filing shipping instructions with US Customs and securing an AES number. We highlight the challenges and financial implications for shippers when consignees refuse to pick up shipments, emphasizing the importance of financial due diligence. In our conversation, we examine the role of freight forwarders and the critical importance of service levels and customer support in the logistics industry. We delve into Zohra's entrepreneurial journey, from the jewelry industry in India to co-founding Sea Link in the U.S., illustrating the courage and determination required for such ventures. She provides insights into maritime routes and their impacts on transit times, including the choice between the Panama Canal and the Cape of Good Hope.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Zohra Shroff (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zohra-shroff-383276172/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Sealink International Inc GUEST Zohra ShroffAbout Zohra TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good morning Zohra. How are you today? Zohra: Good morning, I'm well. How are you I? Dave: am good Now. Are you calling in from San Francisco, or is that just a background you have? Zohra: No, it's just a background I have. Dave: Where are you calling in from? I am San. Zohra: Antonio Texas. San Antonio Texas. Dave: Yeah, soft spot for me. I went to high school in a suburb of San. Zohra: Antonio, oh, that's really nice. It's a great city, you know, small growing, not too big yet, but I guess eventually getting there. Dave: Yeah, Now are you a native of San Antonio. Zohra: I've been here almost 22 years now, so I think I am. Dave: Okay, and what about originally when? Zohra: are you from? Originally from India, Migrated to the US in the early 2000 and came into Jersey. Stayed there for a couple of years and then moved to San Antonio, Got married and moved to San Antonio. Dave: That's awesome. Zohra: So been here since then. Yes, so it's home now. Dave: That is great. So my wife is a native Texan. I'm what I choose to call a naturalized Texan. We have a saying. I got here as quick as I could. Zohra: I think I can say that now too. You know it's been wonderful, and it's home now. So yeah, it's great. Dave: That is great. So tell me about SeaLink. When did the company start? What prompted it to start? Who started it? Kind of a whole story. Zohra: Sure, sure, definitely. So. Sealink was started by Shaizad. He is my cousin and the forwarding business has been in our family for three generations now. Okay, india. And then my father took it over in the early 80s and 90s and then Shaizad joined him as well after he graduated from college. So he worked in the Indian market on at that point we used to do a lot of brick bulk vessels and we used to do containerized vessels as well. So that's how it all began. And then when Shaizad moved to the US I want to say in 2001, he was working for one of the forwarders and stuff for a few years and then he decided that we should, that he should start on his own. So he started Sealink in 2005 from LA, from his one bedroom apartment, just handling freehand cargo that our sister company back in India was anyways consigning to different agents in the US. And so then we took over that business and that's how we started. And then from there we are here today, grown to a fully export plus import oriented forwarder. So I think that's awesome. Dave: And when did you join the company? Zohra: I joined very early on 2006. So it was yeah, not very late on, so started in 2005. I joined in. I think we were September 2005,. If I'm not mistaken, I think I joined March 2006. Dave: Okay, so Shaizad gets credit for the first six months. Zohra: Yes, Shaizad gets credit for it. Dave: But you get credit for all the growth starting in 2006, right? Zohra: I wish I could take all the credit, but he is a visionary. He is a visionary and without his vision or without his farsightedness on you know what like, we don't want to just be called a forwarder. I don't like saying Sealink is just a forwarder. Because of that, because of his vision, I think we are so ahead of the market in terms of our competitors also and in terms of our vendors also, like overall, I think, for the shipping industry. I think we have it one notch up at, I think, at any given point. You know, just because we have because of his vision. I should again say that, because of Shaizad's vision of not only moving freight but making sure that we are giving service with the service industry and also making sure that we are making sure that we are giving the standard of service with the competitive rates at all time, and I think that is one thing that puts Seelink above. Of course, our technology is our greatest selling point. We've had our app I think so for over six years now six to seven years and you can do everything on our Seelink app you can book, you can give your documents, you can download an invoice, you can download an invoice, you can pay an invoice. You can track and trace your cargo. You can do everything on that app so you are not stuck to see that. Okay, what is going on on my shipment? You know where is my shipment. Why do I need to like hassle bustle and call somebody and someone's not answering the phone? So we have live tracking and tracing that shows on your website that your that your shipment has been delayed or there is a vessel delay or there is a longer transshipment hold. All of that information is available on our app, ready to go. Every month we update our rates so the customers know that in February, if my rate from place A to place B was $500, then we know that March 1st that rate is either going to be $400, depending on the market, or $600. So they have visibility of all of this, which is giving them ease of business. They can make their deals. They can look and then get a figure that, okay, you know what, my freight is going to be so much and my material is going to cost so much. This is what I need to do and this is how I can sell. So we give them all that information. Also, not only we are providing a sea, water services or sea services, we are even providing air freight, we are providing domestic, we are providing trade services. So, for example, if I have a customer who wants to move from Atlanta, atlanta into into Moondra, so I have a rate through the vendor from Atlanta to Moondra to Mundra, so I have a rate through the vendor from Atlanta to Mundra. But if he has a facility in Duluth, atlanta, and then wants to get into on the rail, so we provide that drage service as well. So he can put in his zip code that I need to pick up from so and so zip code, take it to the rail and then it'll go out, you know. So we provide that part of draGE as well, which is really helpful for our customers if they want to go ahead and offer that to their suppliers or to their clients as well. So everything is under one portal and easy access. That's what I can say. Dave: That sounds great. So even though I've been in this business for 20 years, working with exporters, I never really understood how the freight moved. So what I would love for you to do is let's imagine that I'm a brand new scrap broker, scrap metal broker, and I have my first load ready. It's in a container and it's at the Port of Houston. And so let's just imagine like, help me just understand all the steps. So I call you up and I say, zohra, how I've got this uh load of uh of scrap metal at the port in houston and I need to get it to uh, um, what would be a good, a good port in india. Zohra: That that, mundra, let's say. Dave: Let's say, so, walk me through like all the things that that like, just walk me through all the steps that have to happen okay. Zohra: So initially, if I'm onboarding a new scrap customer, we we have an onboarding process that goes into place. You know we we run their credit scores. We, you know, ask for references, we make sure the company is in good standing. Because we do all these thorough checks? Because in the end we don't want a long standing container in some other country where then Seelink is responsible. So we have a thorough vetting process. So it's not like you know, somebody didn't just come to me and say, hey, you know what, I want to move one box of scrap and please help me. It doesn't work like that anymore Because you know there has been so many people who have not done the right thing while moving metal scrap. You know they say that it is metal scrap, but they load something else and it happens. It's just the way the industry is right. So, first and foremost, when we onboard a customer, there is a whole onboarding process. We go ahead, we make sure that the customer is vetted completely. For some reasons, if there is no scores, we ask them for their financials, three years financials and sometimes we even ask for a deposit, depending on the situation of the customer. That's how our onboarding process works. Once the onboarding process is done, then they can go on the website or the app and they can see what port pairs they are moving this freight on. Now, for example, if they are buying from Houston and they want to move from Houston to Moondra, they will plug in on my website Houston to Moondra 120 footer metal scrap and they will see all the steamship lines that I have rates on. It could be MSC, maersk, capagloid, you know all of these top three, four lines where I can say that, ok, this is what your price will. If you want to ship with Maersk, your price is A. If you want to ship with MSC, your price is B. It will give them the transit time. Some of the shippers are very, very, very, very concerned about the transit time. Shippers are very, very, very, very concerned about the transit time. It depends on what they're shipping. If they're shipping ferris and it is, like you know, maybe five boxes they might not be very concerned. But if they're shipping non-ferris, they might be like okay, zohra, I need a 45 day transit. So then I'm telling them okay, choose Maersk or MSC, because their transit is somewhere between 45 to 46 days, you so so let's say so. Dave: Let's say I pick mursk mursk. Zohra: Yes, so then you go on my app and then you hit book. Once you hit book, I get a notification saying abcd has made a booking request from houston to mundra for next week's cutoff for 120 footer. I come inside, I come into play, my team goes ahead, makes the booking on Maersk and turns it around and about. I want to say we want to try to keep it under two hours, so we go ahead and we send a booking confirmation that has all the information of this load. So, the customer exactly knows that, okay, this load needs to get picked up, the empty container needs to get picked up at Bayport Terminal. Okay, once the trucker picks it up at Bayport Terminal, they go to their facility, they get it loaded If the customer is doing their own trucking. If the customer says, or I don't have a trucker in Houston, do my trucking, then I'll offer him, I'll say give me your zip code in Houston, I'll give you a dredge rate and then I can go pick up, schedule your trucking. So I will schedule the trucking, get the container loaded, bring it back to the port, return it loaded at the port and then from there it will sit on the port on the day of the cutoff and then from there we will go ahead and make sure that it gets loaded on the ship. There. We will go ahead and make sure that it gets loaded on the ship. Now, that is where the whole process is working in terms of getting this container into the port. Now, once it's into the port, then it is the customer's responsibility to go ahead and send me shipping instructions. Who is he shipping to? Who is his shipper? Who is his consignee? What is the container number? What is the weight. What is the weight? What is the seal? Dave: is there a name for that set of documents? Zohra: yes, it's called shipping instructions the shipping instructions. So those shipping instructions are given to, given by the, the customer, to us. We go ahead and we put it. Dave: I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. I just really want to make sure understand yeah so those instructions? Is that done electronically through your website? Zohra: We can do it electronically. There are lots of customers who send us emails also, so, however, they are comfortable. Dave: Okay. Zohra: If they feel comfortable, there is a way on our website to go ahead and save their shipper and consignees as well, so they can just click, click and say that, okay, this is my shipper, this is my consignee, and then they just change the container name or the container number and weight and seal number. Dave: Okay, so I've given you the shipping instructions. Zohra: Yes, Now you've given me the shipping instructions, I'm going to go back and send you. I'm going to put everything on the BL and I'm going to send you a draft bl. I'm going to say, hey, this is what your draft, a draft bl will look. So you will go ahead and get a draft bl from ceiling and you will check everything your shipper, your consign what is bl? a bill of lading okay yes, the bill of lading, but this is a draft copy, okay, so we, so we can still make changes. If you say, oh, you know what, I don't want to write metal scrap, I want to write heavy metal scrap. So can you edit that for me? Or if your consignee says you know what, I want to add a notify party, so we're going to be like, ok, we'll add a notify party. So we send you a draft copy and stuff like that and we tell you that, okay, please look at it thoroughly, this is what your draft, this is what your bl is going to look like. Okay, so once they check everybody is in order, we go ahead, we take and we file those shipping instructions with the us customs. We tell them that, hey, this person is shipping this cargo from here to here. These are the details. And then we file the entry into the US Customs. They come back with an AES number for us where it is that OK, you know what. The customs has approved your shipment. This is your AES filing number and now you're good to go. Dave: And what does AES stand for? Zohra: It's an automated uh-oh export system export uh automated export documentation okay, yeah yeah. So it's like uh, it's like an ams that you file from the import side, and where does the and then the uh container number? Is that going to be? Dave: in shipping instructions yeah, so it'll still end up on the bill of lading. Zohra: Yes, yes, everything. All this information, shipper consignee, container number, weight, seal, what commodity you have shipped. Everything will appear on the bill of lading, All of this instructions, so everybody has clarity on what has shipped, who has shipped and where is it going. Dave: Okay. Zohra: Also, and if Seelaling has done the trucking for this customer, then I'm not even asking him for the container number because the trucker will give me. He's my trucker, so he's going to be like hey, I pulled this container number. Once I load it, I'll give you the weight and seals. So once we send out the draft BL, it is approved, we go ahead and we send all the information to the Steam ship line, whichever vendor you chose, and we file everything. Dave: We ask the Now where does it, I'm sorry. When does it ship? From being a draft to being a final After the customs process? Zohra: After sailing, after sailing. So once the customs is processed, we have all our information. Once the shipment is sailed, then the steamship line will be like okay, your shipment has sailed, Everything looks good. This is your original bill of lading. Dave: And sailed is a reference to 200 years ago, right With ship that sails Does it? Just mean it's departed the port. It has departed the port, yes. Zohra: So once it is sailed and then after, I think most of the time, they give us a draft in two days of sailing. The original bill will come out in two days of sailing and then from there, once we have the original bill, the customer does have a choice that if he wants a complete set of original bill of ladings, so that means that's a paper copy, or else he wants a telex, which would be an electronic copy. And then he can say that oh, you know what, I don't mind, my consignee doesn't mind a telex release. So if you can go ahead and update this to a telex release, and is the telex? Dave: is it truly going through the old telex system or is it just being electronic? Zohra: It's through the old telex system or does it just mean electronic? It's just meaning electronic. There's no funny how the language just stays around. Right, yeah, okay, all right, so go ahead. Yeah, so once. So then they have a choice to either have some of the guys if they have an lc, they would like the obl so that way they have control on the cargo, they have control on the money, and then they release the bills once they get paid and if they are confident, if they are a regular shipper and a regular consignee, they might go in for a telex release which is just electronic Gotcha. Dave: So then it leaves Houston, and I'm guessing does it go through the Panama Canal. Zohra: Depends on the routing. Some go through the Panama Canal, some do not, so it just depends on what route the steamship line is taking. Dave: I'm just curious. So if it's going from Houston to Moondra, I mean it's got to get around South America. Zohra: Yeah, yeah. So it would go through the canal and if not, because of all the issues that we're going through now, a lot of steamship lines have been routing it to the Cape of Good Hope. Dave: So they've been going that direction, that direction Around Africa. Zohra: Okay, yes, yes, so that makes it a little bit transit longer, but just the safety was more important at that point. Dave: So a lot of routes. Zohra: At least it's a predictable amount of time even though it's longer, and so if it goes, around Houston to Mondra by the Cape under Cape of Good Hope. Dave: How many days does that typically I? Zohra: think it added. I think it added 15 days to the transit. Dave: So what would that? Be total transit so about 60 days about 60 days. Zohra: Yeah, so I think first it was 45 days and then it became 60 days when they were doing, uh, the cape of good hope. Um, I and you know what, sometimes it even is a little bit shorter. I did see a couple of vessels that were doing 55 days also. So I think it just depends on you know how, how how delayed the vessel is, or if there is any any issues on any transshipment ports and stuff like that. So sometimes it's hard to say if it's going to be like anywhere between 40 to 60 days okay, so now it's on the water, is there just no activity at this point? Dave: is there any? Zohra: hopefully you don't want any activity, you just want everything to be good. But there are things that happen, like you heard about the Baltimore issue that happened early last April. I want to say it's going to be a year that everything was good to go. The vessel was ready to sail and it hit the bridge right and that was disastrous and that lasted for six months. Containers, fellers, fell in the water and you know some got damaged and then you know those things. Yeah, we don't want those things to happen, but of course it is. It is an inevitable. Like you know, hazards happen sometimes, so you would want that. Dave: Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I know you know this really well and so I'm sorry I have to keep stopping you for such basic questions. Zohra: No, no, not at all Do the containers these days. Dave: Do they have any electronic tracking on the containers? Zohra: Some do and some don't. Okay, so the ones that do like. Dave: Is it RF tracking or a different type of electronic tracking? Zohra: I don't believe they have an RF tracking. Most of our containers do not have a tracker because the lines will only give us 10 plus old, 10 plus year containers to load scrap, I see. So we don't get the nice fancy containers. So, most of us are not trackable. Okay, so my scrap load, load. Dave: It's not being tracked but it's on the boat it's on the boat, and so it's sailing, and then now it shows up in mundra. And what happens now? Zohra: so once it shows up in mundra, the steamship line that you have picked is going to send an arrival notice, five to seven days, to your consignee in India or your forwarder in India, whoever you have put on the BL instructions, so you will get an arrival notice. Dave: Now will you be? Will you be the forwarder in India? Zohra: No, no, we do have our own office in India, but most of metal scrap moves on a master bill, so there is really no requirement of a forwarder per se needed when your shipment reaches destination. Dave: They just need a broker and they can clear their shipment and pick it up at the port. Okay, so the ship arrives, and then that starts the arrival notice. Time clock. Zohra: Yeah. Dave: From the time it's actually lands. No, so the arrival notice you will get from the time it's actually lands? Zohra: no, so the arrival notice you will get five to seven days before arrival. So it gives you it gives you ample of time to say that okay, you know what my shipment is coming in. Let me get my docks ready and file it with the Indian customs. Because you can file, I want to say, four days before your shipment is arriving. Dave: So you're not scrambling, and how do we know that the ship is five to seven days away? Zohra: Is there tracking of the ship? Yes, yes, you can track it. Dave: Does the captain get on the radio? Call Zohra. Yeah, hey, I'm about five days away. Zohra: Yeah, no, so the shipment can be tracked on the steam ship lines website also, and plus on ceilings, on ceilings website as well. so you, will see, definitely that your shipment is arriving in three days or five days. If there is a delay, it will blink red and say that hey, there is a delay. And then when you get your arrival notice from the steam ship line, also it will have a date of arrival. It will be like, okay, you know this shipment is arriving on so and so date, so you are prepared that. Okay, you know what. My shipment's coming in five days. Let me get all my documents ready. Dave: Let me have it send it to my broker, you can start and you can start the process with the india customs four days before. I want to go four to five days before so that way, when the ship lands, the you can you already have your entry done and you already know that. Zohra: You know there are no holds of customs and you've paid your freight and you can go along and say that, okay, you know what, I just need the ship to berth. Once they unload my containers, then you know I can just send my trucker to go pick it up. Everything will show green released. You know, unless they have not paid ceiling, then I'll hold the cargo. Dave: Yeah, okay, and help me understand, because I'm an accountant by training. Help me understand the payment of the shipping. At what point do I pay for the shipping? Zohra: Okay, so we have. I want to say 90% of our customers are cash customers. So, when they need their original bill of lading after sailing. We generate an invoice after two days of sailing most of the time, because the line will give us a BL and an invoice in a couple of days. We go ahead, we generate that, we give it to the customer and when he wants to release his shipment he makes a payment to us. So whether it is an OBL or a DELEX, it doesn't matter. When he will tell me okay, zohra, he can go on my website and say release bill. He can go ahead and it will show him that you owe so-and-so amount for this shipment in order to get your release. He can go make a payment and then within 24 hours he will get a release from us. Dave: Okay, Because without that release will the Indian customs not unload. Zohra: No, the Indian customs doesn't really have any control on that. The Indian customs is only getting involved, saying, okay, I have a vessel that has 200 containers coming into India. I need documents to just make sure that it is what they are claiming it is. So they don't have anything to do with our BL release. They only work with customs release. So if I said that I have moved metal scrap and if there is battery in that box, that's a flag for the US customs and I mean for the Indian customs and they will be like I'm going to hold this box. So at that point that box is on a customs hold. Customs will not worry about a BL hold. There are two types of hold. One is a BL hold where either I or the steamship line is holding it for payment, holding it for payment, and then the customs hold is because there is an exam or there is some kind of uh inspection they want to do on the container or if they find some misdeclarations and stuff like that okay yeah, okay, yeah and then, so it shows up, it goes through customs. Dave: Uh, the freight forwarder there puts it on a truck, yeah, and then the truck goes to the warehouse or wherever they need to originally drop. Zohra: They go ahead, they unload the goods off the container. They make sure everything is weight and the weight is matching to what they had claimed it was. Sometimes the weight has shifted or sometimes they feel like, okay, the weight is less, then internally they will file a claim. It doesn't happen a lot, but some things sometimes do happen. And then, once the shipment has been unloaded, they have to make sure it is their responsibility to return the empty container back to the depot. So, once this empty container is returned back in India, that's when my shipment is closed here. Dave: That okay, you know what. Zohra: My empty container has been returned. This has been picked up. Everything is good, payment is good. We are good to close this file. Okay so one file can be open anywhere from 45 days to 60 days, okay, and then if you have issues with that shipment, then it can go longer. If the consignee refuses to pick up the shipment, the consignee abandons, you know, the shipment and says, oh, I don't, I don't have money to pay for it, I can't pick it up. That's when we get into different problems. You know that. Okay, then we need to figure out what we want to do and we all have to keep in mind that every country, every destination country, gives you a few days of free days. So when my shipment arrives in India with my contracts I have 14 free days. So for 14 days I'm not going to get billed for that container sitting at the port. But on that 15th day the clock will start and then, you know, all those charges for demurrage will start occurring for port charges, and then that becomes an expensive, you know, charge that will be billed back to the shipper here because he will have to take accountability of why his consignee didn't pick up the shipment or whatever happened. Dave: You know, and this is part of why you do your financial due diligence on the customers, because you need to make sure that they're a solid business. Solid business, the customer is going to pick it up. Yeah. Zohra: And sometimes we do the due diligence on the shipper part and you know we don't really know what the consignees are in different countries. So now we've started even collaborating with the US customs and you know we run the consignees also through our AES system and if there is like a faulty consignee, then that gets flagged in our system. This is something very new that we have started and we are proud to say that now we are going to run them also to make sure that you know what. There is utmost ease in this process, you know, not to say that when I run the check he's a good consignee and then in the 30 days or the 60 days of the transit something went wrong. Right, I'm not saying that's not going to happen, but at least at the time of the shipment we know everything is a green check, you know. So that's one extra step that we have started taking now, because of so much long standing in different countries are happening due to consignee abandonments. You know, people not paying the banks, lc issues, frauds, people have said that, oh, they are going to do it and then they don't do it. So because of that we are trying to do this extra check where at least the shipper is also at ease. We are also at ease at the time of shipment, and we have this great tool that the US customer is offering us, and so we've started using that as well. Dave: Okay, yeah. So let's instead imagine that this first container is by a friend of mine. Let's say he tells me oh Dave, these freight forwarders are just so expensive, I'm just going to do this all myself. Sure, I would say to them good luck, yes. I would say good luck, because this sounds like an impossible thing to try to do on your own Virtually impossible. Zohra: So a lot, a lot of customers or BCOs that I can say is like the direct shippers, like, of course, the Walmarts and the targets they have, they have a shipping department that does this, of course. But if you have, like, a small trader who's sitting out of Houston or probably New York, it is not worth his headache to do this, because there are lots of small nitty gritty things that are happening along the way, like, for example, I gave you this booking, okay, from Houston to Moondra. Now you have arranged for a trucker, the trucker is trying to pull an empty and my booking is not on file. Okay you are sitting and making a phone call to that line saying, oh, my booking is not on file. I have a trucker. Your trucker is charging you $65 because he's in line for an hour, gets to the terminal and the booking is not on file. I have a trucker. Your trucker is charging you $65 because he's in line for an hour, gets to the terminal and the booking is not on file. They're not going to let him wait there. He will have to go back in the line. So doing business with a forwarder is bringing you ease of these kind of kinks that are going to cost you financially. It is going to cost you a $65 dry run fee or a $65 detention fee for that guy to turn around and stand back in the line With us. We go ahead and we make sure that their booking is on file. Most of the time the depots are filled with containers. And again, I'm not saying that things don't happen. Of course things happen. But if you are a guy who's moving five to seven boxes a week, you don't have the time to sit and call for every booking and say, hey, is my booking on file? Is my trucker standing there? Do we have chassis, you know? Do the container depots have containers mounted on chassis? Do I have to take my own chassis? What's going on, at least with with us? We are telling them okay, your pickup is here, your booking is on file, go ahead, send the trucker again. Sometimes, when the trucker is there, some things happen. Then we can go ahead and fix it. I just feel like, because we are, our relationships are so much more deeper with the lines, you know what we can try to solve problem faster than someone trying to do this first time on their own or even if they've been in the business. Because these are painstaking things you know, like getting appointments to return. Like APM terminal in New York, it is a nightmare right now. It is a nightmare to get an appointment to return your box. So think about it. It. You pulled a box, you loaded it. Now you need to return it and your trucker is trying to get an appointment right and everything is showing full. Your cutoff is tomorrow. So you know those kind of hassles come in, which all come with the financial costs, and I'm not saying that you know what. Every time we will be coming to the rescue, but I feel like we have. So we have a good leverage to come to solve your problems, to make it easy to ship for you guys. You know our job is to make it easy to ship and you can have, you can have, you can be stress-free and you can concentrate on the growth of your business instead of worrying about how one container is going to move. You know yeah now, that's where we come in well, you've sold me. Dave: When I, if I ever get into the scrap metal business and ship to mundra, you'll be the first call thank you now I understand this now. This may be shocking, but I understand that there are other freight forwarders besides Sealink. Oh yes, oh yes, but help me understand, though I imagine that on the surface it's funny. Every business like when you're an outsider, it looks like a commodity, right, you know, it just looks like they're all the same. So if you don't know anything about, I don't know whatever like, let's say, farming equipment. To me, all farming equipment looks the same. I'm sure there's differences between them. Some do better at some things than others. Some are more expensive, some are cheaper, and so I'm sure that it's like that in the freight forwarding world. So give me an example that it's like that in the freight forwarding world. So give me an example. I'm sure that from time to time you get a call from somebody and says Zohra, my current freight forwarder dropped the ball once again and I'm fed up with them. I want to start using you all. Let's think back to maybe an example of that. And of course you don't mention the customer name or the prior freight forwarder. But what's a typical fact pattern that makes them shift from somebody else to you all? Zohra: so in in all these years of of me being at ceiling, the the majority people turn back to us is because of service levels. If there is a problem, I'm not going to run away. I'm going to sit with my customer, explain to them that this is an issue and we need to work together. It is going to cost. Let's come to that understanding that it is going to cost. Am I going to do my very best to make the cost minimal? Yes, yes, of course, though I know that the customer is at fault or the trucker is at fault, it doesn't matter. But we at Sealing believe that we are not going to haggle our customers when they are in problems to make a quick buck. We're not going to do that. We are never going to do that. So we make sure that if a customer is stranded like I'll give you an example right now, I have a situation I have a booking from A-Line Okay, and we got a container loaded. Okay, we got a container loaded. When the container got returned at the port, we got an email from the A-Line saying hello, this container doesn't belong to us. So then we started digging. We started digging, we found out that my customer had used another forwarder's booking for a line that ceiling doesn't work with. Okay. So there are seven, eight vendors we work with and two, three vendors we don't work with. Okay. So now I have a situation where I have a container loaded sitting in the port which my line is saying Zohra, I can't move it, it's not my box, I can't on hire this box because they won't let me. Though it is a partner box, they won't let me. You need to go to this line and figure out what you want to do. Now, zohra or ceiling doesn't work with this line. And my customer is frustrated because his forwarder, who gave him this booking, is saying oh, I can't do anything. You pulled a box now and my booking I gave it to somebody else so that booking is full. Now okay so now he has no space to accommodate this box here, okay, okay. So I'm not going to tell my customer. Oh, you know what? You got a booking from another forwarder on a line that ceiling doesn't work with. You figure out your stuff, because this container here is already accumulating demurrage, sitting sitting on the boat, which is $250 a day. So now yesterday what I did is I called the line that I don't work with and I gave them the whole rundown. I gave them the container number. I told them see, this is what is going on. I understand we don't work with you guys, but can you go ahead and help us? So yesterday they said okay, you know what, we can help you all. We are going to try to see we can reach out to the other forwarder and increase his booking and make sure that this can get returned at that point. Would that that other forwarder should have taken that step to help his customer, who is also my customer, but because of the service failure, or because maybe he doesn't, he was not able to understand how to problem solve this or troubleshoot this, or probably he just didn't have the resources to do it? I don't know. But if my customer came to me and is stranded. I am going to offer that help. I'm not going to be looking here to make a quick buck and say, hey, I don't work with this guy. Pay these 200 demurrage or go ahead and dray out the container. Pay $900 to dray out the container and then go back reloaded in my Steam Ship Lines box. Dave: I see so what happened in that scenario? Zohra: So now today I mean this is very live. This just happened like two days ago. So now today, hopefully you know, the line that I'm not working with has talked to that forwarder and hopefully we have increased his original booking and now we can attach this container to his booking. Go ahead and tell that line. Okay, please move this. Tell my customer. Go ahead, I have increased your booking. Please go to your forwarder, submit your shipping instructions and make sure your container gets on water on the next vessel. You will have some demerit charges which you will have to settle directly with the port, so they had to find space on the line that owned the container. Yes. Dave: Okay. Zohra: Yeah, the line that owned the container. So right now, because of so much of vessel shiftings, right, every vendor in the market whether it is Maersk, hapag, lloyd, zim, msc, all these lines are relocating services, they're readjusting services. Someone is coming into a new alliance, someone has come out of an alliance. There are lots of new vessels come into the market, larger ships come into the market, so everyone is adjusting a lot of vessels. So that is why it is very space, a space constraint. Right now. There are blank sailings, you know, to make sure that these new services are well adjusted for april. So, uh, so that is why there is this space issue. If there was no space issue, right, there wouldn't be a problem I see the other forwarder could pick up the phone and get it right right and the containers are owned by the shipping lines yes, the container. Dave: That's why, when I see a railroad when I'm sitting at a rail stop yeah comes by. Zohra: I see the maersk yeah, the big blue, because that's one of their containers yes, a musk or any, or a costco hat bag, they they all they all own their containers. Yes, correct, wow. Dave: So how, uh, it sounds like you have to work 168 hours a week, I mean, if you're in the service business yeah, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think moondraw is on a different time zone. Zohra: Yes, yes, yeah it's almost end of working day for them right now. Actually, before this, I was on my india office call. We have our own office in india as well, so we have a call with them once a week to just see what's going on, how's business, what can we do to support from here. So they were already, like you know, getting ready to go home, because it's almost eight o'clock in the night over there so is it safe to assume that you, that eight to five is not the sole hours that you work? there is no eight to five in this industry. No, there isn't. Dave: No, I mean my business you know, is to somewhat the same way. I mean, what I tell my clients is all you need to know about the ic disc is my mobile number. Yeah, that's it. That's all you need to know. Just call me, I'll take care of it. Zohra: Yeah, that's how we are, that's how we are. Customers call us, whatsapp us, email us and we try to service. We try to service. We are in the service industry. We believe our service is, is on top and if, and and I'm not saying c-link is the cheapest, I'm not saying that even at but we thrive on it because we know that. You know our customers, and hats off to our customers. Their support has got us here and they are willing to pay us an extra $25 for what we offer. We offer the app, we offer the service. All my sales reps are very in touch with the customers. They just don't sell and then you never see them. It's not. That doesn't work here. You know we do trade shows. We see our customers there make it a point at least two times a year. We are seeing our customers. We have FaceTime with them. So it's not like you're going to like have a salesperson. Dave: They sell you a rate and then they are gone. It's not going to be like that. Zohra: Your point of contact is your salesperson. Of course we don't want our salespeople to get in operations which they don't. Their work is to sell. But customer is not going to feel like isolated saying that, oh you know what. So, and so was my salesperson at ceiling. They sold me a rate and now have all these problems and I don't know who to go to. You know that problem will never arise. Like you say that problem will never arise like you say that, uh, your cell phone number is what they need for us. It's just just email email me or email one of my reps, and you will get a response, like I can promise that well, you all have a booth at the rima san diego show. Dave: I'll be sure to stop by, will you be wow? Yes, I'm gonna be there I'll be sure to stop by. Oh, that'll be awesome, yeah, we do rima every year? Yeah, we've been doing it for the past several years now okay, yes, so uh, uh, wow, I can't believe how the time has flown. Zohra: Yeah, it's um, it wasn't that bad, like I thought it would, I know. Dave: So, so a couple, so last couple questions what? What do you enjoy the most about your job, like what's the most satisfying part of your role within C-Link. Zohra: Helping my customers. Dave: Okay, I had a feeling that was it? Zohra: I really, really find it satisfying when I see an email saying you know, thanks, Zohra, you saved my life, you know, or you know like. Dave: Chad, he's our sales director. Zohra: You know, thanks, zohra, you saved my life, you know, or you know, like Chad, he's our sales director. You know he'll send out an email saying, okay, you're a miracle worker, not to me, but to my teams as well, right, because sometimes it's, it's very frustrating to get small things done right, and when that small thing gets done, then everything flows. So I feel like once you get them that ease, that, okay, now their cargo is going to flow. I feel, I feel satisfied, my teams feel satisfied, right. So I think, just helping out and making sure we are there, that's, you know, that's, I think, is very important, because if you're missing in this chain, your customer is just going to be stranded, you know. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes makes sense. So last two questions. So one's kind of serious and the last one's fun. So the serious one is um, if you could go back 20 years, and what year did you say you came to the uS? Zohra: I came in 2000. Dave: Okay, so if you could go, if you had a time machine and you could go back and you could give advice to yourself back in the year 2000, what advice or pep talk or insight, would you tell yourself? Zohra: you tell yourself that I should have started this earlier. I did. Dave: I don't know why I waited till 2006, okay, so yeah that you know that's the answer that every client gives yeah, that they, they didn't start the business, or they didn't do this because they were afraid or there was risk or whatever. And the advice they always, almost always, give is don't be afraid, take the risk, do it. Zohra: Yes, yes, I agree. So I'll give you a little background. So before I joined Shaizad, I was working at a wholesale jewelry place. We had, you know, huge wholesale and we had a lot of mexican um imported jewelry. You know, we used to sell a lot like. It was a very different, different field altogether. We used to supply to all the big stores and stuff like that. And then when shazad started this, you know, he told me he's like I don't know if I can, like we'll be able to afford a salary, or you know how it's going to be, because I'm just starting and and and we don't know. You know how it's going to work because right now I don't have overhead expenses. So think about it, right. So, like I said, he's a visionary, right. And he just told me one thing he's like I promise you that you will not regret, right. And at that point I feel he, he was all. He already taken the risk, he had already taken the risk, he had left his job at at another forwarder and taken the risk to start this. And when he told me that you know you won't regret, I just I just took the leap of faith and said you know what? This is it. If I think I would have like thought a little bit more and said, oh, I won't. I don't know how I'm going to replace my income or what's going to happen. I don't know if this is going to work. I feel like maybe we wouldn't be here. So I think sometimes you just take that leap and then leave it up to the big man up and I think it all works out with your hard work. But you have to put in the work, I feel. Dave: Sure, that is great. Well, my last question, a fun one. So in Houston we have a thriving Indian community and I have a lot of great Indian restaurants to choose from. So two questions. One if you want really good Indian food in San Antonio, do you have to go to your kitchen? Zohra: Or are there some good Indian restaurants in San Antonio? Actually, now there are a couple of good Indian restaurants in San. Antonio, I can say that you know. Dave: Because I'm guessing the Indian population in San Antonio is a lot smaller than Indian. Zohra: Yes, it is a lot smaller, but I can now say if you would ask me this five years ago, I would be like nothing my kitchen but, now I can say actually we just went to one day before yesterday and it was pretty nice. Dave: So yes, yeah, I think I am heading to Houston, uh, next week. Zohra: so I'm going to make it a point to go to one of the nice restaurants Indian restaurants to know, get some food, that's great, which I think. Dave: I think the yellow curry is my favorite. What's your favorite curry? Zohra: I think I'm not very fond of curries, but I think I'm not a big. I'm not a big curry person, so, but I think my favorite Indian food would be biryani. Dave: Okay. Zohra: Yeah, the rice with the meat. Yeah, yeah, I think that that is awesome. Dave: Well, Zohra, thank you again for coming on the show sharing your story, the SeaLink story and uh and sharing your passion. It really comes through that you and uh and Shaizad both have a passion for serving your customers, and that's really. It's always fun to hear that somebody's just really enjoying what they do. Zohra: Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you for having me and thank you for letting me talk about sealing, and I hope that whoever listens to this, you know, comes to us and uses us. Thank you. Dave: That sounds great. You have a great day. Zohra: You too, you too. Special Guest: Zohra Shroff.

Finding what you love doing beats chasing money every time. Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John Sacco, owner of Sierra International Machinery, a trailblazer in the recycling industry. Starting as an agri-packaging business, John transformed the company into a recycling equipment powerhouse, moving from marketing Italian made machines, to designing their own balers and conveyors, and now offering a comprehensive range of recycling equipment with renowned service quality. He's been a lifelong industry advocate. Serving as past ISRI chairman and creating the "Repurposed" docuseries on Prime Video, a series showcasing how 75% of new American steel comes from recycled materials. Activities that help companies recruit talent by highlighting the environmental benefits of an industry often misunderstood by policymakers and the public. It's a great conversation revealing how critical recycling is for disaster recovery, processing debris, and supplying rebuilding materials. Listen in to hear why John believes finding your passion, as he did at age 59, brings more satisfaction than any bank account.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS We explore Sierra's transformation from a leader in agri-packaging during the 60s and 70s to a pioneer in recycling machinery, sparked by the introduction of an Italian machine in the 1980s. John discusses the significance of Sierra's involvement with trade associations like ISRI, now REMA, emphasizing the role of advocacy in correcting industry misconceptions and celebrating milestones such as serving as chairman. John and I delve into Sierra's innovative marketing approach, highlighting their docuseries on steel recycling that unexpectedly gained popularity on Prime Video, enhancing the industry's image. He addresses the broader industry challenge of attracting and retaining talent, drawing parallels to Mike Rowe's advocacy for essential yet undervalued jobs. We highlight the environmental advancements in the U.S. steel industry, including its leadership in recycling and the significant role of recycled aluminum in the automotive sector. John shares advice on prioritizing passion over profit, emphasizing personal growth and the rewarding aspects of the journey, including attending industry conferences and personal milestones. He reflects on Sierra's collaborative team effort in expanding product offerings, driven by customer needs and market opportunities, while maintaining a strong reputation and high-quality service.   Contact Details LinkedIn - John Sacco (https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-sacco-8a8a1b10/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Sierra International Machinery GUEST John SaccoAbout John TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) John: And there's a lot of misconceptions about our industry. So staying involved is, you know, I've done it and that's kind of why I've also done a lot in regards to the docuseries on our industry and stuff like that. Dave: Good morning John. How are you today? John: Doing good. Doing good, that's awesome, not bad. Dave: How are you today Doing good? John: Doing good. That's awesome, not bad. How are? Dave: you doing Dave. That's good, I'm doing great Now are you a? Native of California. John: Yeah, I was born and raised in Bakersfield, California. Dave: Oh, wow, Okay. So did you grow up around the scrap business? John: Well, actually I grew up more in the agri-packaging side of Sierra. We used to have a company called Sierra Bag and we used to supply agri-packaging products. We were at one point the leader in selling bagging and ties to the cotton industry. Years ago in the 60s and 70s, there used to be over 2.2 million bales a year of cotton grown in the San Joaquin Valley and we used to sell the bagging and use bags and make potato bags and onion bags. We had the recycled materials facility but I really wasn't involved with that. I was more involved during the summers as a kid working in the bag plant. Dave: Okay, so how did the transformation then go on your end to where you get more involved in the recycling space. John: Well, it started when my dad had found a machine out of Europe, out of Italy, and he thought that the market in America could use these machines. Which he was right. And at 19, by late 1985, his partner, 42 years, a buddy of his, who he met during World War II, was, he was ready to retire, he had some health issues and he was just ready to call it quits. And so, in early 1986, what he did was sold the Jagger packaging, bought his partner out and had me start marketing the machines. So, not knowing a whole lot about Ferris and non-Ferris, quite frankly, I was forced to learn it kind of on the fly and getting involved with selling the equipment. Dave: Okay, and did you get involved with the company right after you graduated from USC? John: I did. For two years I was on the agri-packaging side, traveling around to potato sheds, onion sheds, selling the products that we had, and then in 85, started going to the cotton gins. Also, we held a at the time a patent on the cotton module which when they harvested cotton in the field they'd make these big well, for lack of a better word a big log of cotton before they sent it into the cotton gin and we had a tarp for it into the cotton gin and we had a tarp for it. So when it if it rained because the harvesting of cotton was late September, early October and so if it rained it could ruin the grade so we had this cotton module cover and we had a patent. So we sold a lot of those throughout America to the cotton industry. Dave: Okay, and then it was shortly after that that you got more involved in the recycling machinery. John: That's correct. Yeah, when my dad sold all the agri-packaging in 86, all of that went away. So that was when he wanted me to market the machines, because I had taken marketing at USC. So I just basically said, hey, market these machines. Dave: That's what I've been doing ever since and there's a little more to it than that because at some point you all started developing your own machinery. Is that correct, that's? John: correct. We you know our clientele base also was in need of two-ram balers for the processing of non-ferrous materials, you know, aluminum, copper, and also in the fiber industry for paper. And so we decided to start building two-ram balers and hired an engineer who was at the time unemployed and got involved and built a plant down in southern Georgia and expanded today. So we finished, we opened up in October of 2008 and building two ram balers and conveyors for the metal side and also the waste sector. So that's grown nicely over the years. Dave: That is great. And then you guys have expanded your product offering. Then beyond that to other aspects, right? John: That's correct. Yeah, so you know, for recycled materials facilities we offer a wide variety of products from 2-ram balers, conveyors, shears, shear balers, portable balers, grapples and material handlers, so it's a wide variety of equipment that can go into a lot of different aspects of the waste sector and the recycled material sector. Dave: Okay, and then at some point, you became involved in the Trade Association. Was it ISRI then, or was that? John: Yeah, it was ISRI back. It was in the late 1990s that I got involved and you know I got involved, I enjoyed and it was fun for me on a personal level and then in two I was elected to be secretary-treasurer of at the time it was ISRI. It's now REMA, the Recycled Materials Association. So I did that stint, you know, as secretary-treasurer and you move up to chair, and I was chairman in 2011, 2012,. But have stayed involved with the Trade Association because I believe in having a strong voice for an industry in the states and in, you know, in the nation's capital. You know policymakers don't really know what we do and there's a lot of misconceptions about our industry. So staying involved is you know there's a lot of misconceptions about our industry. So staying involved is, you know, I've done it and that's kind of why I've also done a lot in regards to the docu-series on our industry and stuff like that. Dave: Okay, I can't believe that it's been 12 years ago. 13 years ago I guess that you were the chair. I think that's when I first met you in San Diego, I think on the aircraft carrier at a social function. John: Yeah, when we met on the aircraft carrier, that was 2010. Excuse me, that was 2000. Yes, it was 2010. And that was the final night party of ISRI at the time on the USS Midway, and at that party I was officially at that moment, the chairman of ISRI. So yeah, as long as it was, it does seem just like yesterday, david, and it was a great party. But yeah, it just seems like yesterday. Yeah, the sound of it is a long time ago. Dave: Wow, yeah, the time does go by. Now I'm curious, as your product line expanded, I'm curious was that more of a case of you just saw an opportunity and that's kind of what drove it, or was it more your customers coming to you saying, hey, we really need help in this area. Would you guys develop something? Or is it a mix of the two? John: Well, it's a little bit of everything. I have a great team here and the people at the time who was on the team, you know, said well, we should get involved with this type of equipment because we have a need for it. You know our customer base asked for it and you know I won't take the credit for it and you know it's I won't take the credit for it because in the end it's a team here at Sierra and you know I have a brother involved who's my partner now, his son, my nephew's involved and so over the years it's just it's about discussing what we can do, how we grow. How do we you know you got to grow your revenue. How do we grow it? And by adding different products into the mix. And then the manufacturer out of Italy, the Tabarelli family, they have a wide, they had the material handler. So we just started just a couple years ago starting to really, you know, push into that market and you know we'll gain our traction. It takes a little time but it's a team effort here and it's just a lot of people have. You know my general sales manager has been with us since 1988. And you know he has a lot of great ideas as well. So, as a team, we've worked together to develop the products we needed to come into the market. And what's really unique is when you deal with our company. There's, like I say, a wide variety of equipment that you can handle or you can purchase from Sierra and that we service. So we have the ability to sell a lot of different machines, yet we have the ability to service each and every one of those machines with the same intensity. So it's been good. Dave: No, that's excellent. With the same intensity, so it's been good. No, that's excellent. Do you? Is it that aspect of that ability to you know service, all that equipment? Is that one of the main reasons your clients choose you? What's the feedback you receive from your customers, as far as you know why they end up choosing you? John: Well, there's a lot of reasons. We have built, you know, a really good reputation and we work on it every day to improve. In our service department we carry the parts and we have the technicians, but we also have a very high quality piece of equipment. Series repurposed season one, season two really tells the story of our industry and, as the former chairman of israel, now rima, I keep advocating for the industry with what I do with our social media and you know, when you have two seasons on prime video, people notice that. So there's a lot of things involved. We have good people, we try to do the right thing at all times and that's our motto the Sierra way is the right way. It's not fancy. So I think there's a lot of things that we do that enhance our image and you know people like to do business with us because of all the above. You know, is it just one thing? You know, one customer may like the service, one customer may like our advocacy, which I've heard. A lot of people like our equipment per se, and there's just a lot of things that go into it. So I think it's multifaceted, dave, and it's just not one item. We try to just try to build everything we do, improve our marketing, our brand, improve our service. You know that's our motto is to try to get better every day. We don't want to be the best, we just want to be better, because being better is a journey that every day, if you come in the office and you say how can we be better, you don't rest on what you did yesterday. So it's, you know, we got a good culture, we got great people. You know our technicians also are a great face to the company, our salespeople as well. So I think it's just a multitude of things. Dave: Well, that's an insightful answer. I appreciate that. As far as that docuseries, I've always been curious what's the story behind that? Did you just wake up one day and say you know what I want to be on TV, or was it a little different than that? John: Oh, it's a lot different than that. Interesting how it all came about. A gentleman I've worked with Darren Doan for over a decade on creating content and stuff we've done together. We had this idea back I don't know 22, early 22, to do a thing called the Sierra Summit. We were going to bring in Mike Rowe and the top 100 metal processors in America have this big event and the Ukraine war broke out and what happened with that is a lot of processed steel out of Europe was handled through in Ukraine and our supplier of the Shears, portable balers, had a supply chain issue plus a pricing increase. That was dramatic. And so we decided well, we better keep our powder dry and not spend this money for the summit. And so about a month later things you know, the steel market for europe started settling, and I don't know. I just had this idea of doing this docuseries on steel making being made from recycled steel and start changing the narrative, because I got tired of hearing the word junk, waste, trash. And I think that was one of the biggest obstacles to our industry. And I don't know, I've been in front of the camera with my social media posts, so being in front of a camera didn't bother me. But telling the story of a steel mill using recycled steel as the raw materials coming from out facilities like our own here at Sierra was a fun thing. So I thought, well, you know, we could put our equipment in this, we can tell the story. We're going to advocate for the industry, we can get this out there. I never had any intention of getting it out to Prime Video. My whole intention was to tell a fun story in a cinematic way that people would like and find entertaining and educational. And it turned out to be just that. And so we did season two, where we actually what we learned from season one. So then we weren't focused on the output of rebar at cmc and the construction projects needing rebar, so we showed a lot of projects that had rebar. And where did the rebar come from? So you backtrack it all into the recycled materials and so, uh, it just kind of grew from that. I don't mind being in front of a camera, you know, wanting to be in front of a camera or not minding it, or I think are two different things, but the fact is that I enjoy creating the content. It's fun for me to get into a steel mill. It's fun to tell the story, to talk to people and you, you know, when I released the series, there's so many people who've used it to show their families what they do. You know there's so many people who don't understand what our industry is about. And then you got schools and you know companies using it, even like SAB they were season one. They used it for recruiting and safety and telling their story and CMC is the same as well as telling their story of how their steel mill is really the foundation of infrastructure, because you have to start with rebar and any hospital and school and manufacturing plant. You've got to start with rebar in any hospital and school and manufacturing plant and you know you got to start with rebar and rebar comes from recycled metal, so it's a good story and they've been able to educate people to draw, you know, to attract and retain talent. Our industry isn't the sexiest, so it's shed a light on our industry that our industry actually is doing more to reduce CO2 emissions than any other industry in the world today and it attracts people who want to do something good for the mother earth and have a good paying job at the same time. Dave: That's awesome. Did that surprise you when, like CMC and some other companies, use that as like a recruiting and education of themselves? John: No, that was part of my sales pitch to them. Dave: Okay, okay. John: I knew, for whatever reason, why I knew that our industry has we have an image problem this I know, and it was still there. And attracting and retaining talent is a struggle, and it's not just our industry. If you talk to any facility, any company in America today, they all have the same issues. You know, I've just finished filming at the Toyota Motor Plant in Troy, missouri, where they make cylinder heads and their number one issue is attracting talent in the mechanics. They can't find them. And steel mills same thing. Every industry in America is struggling to find talent, and so I know that if you don't tell your story, if you don't make your company look cool, who wants to come to work for you? Dave: Yeah yeah, it seems like Mike Rowe is kind of on a similar mission from a little different perspective, really trying to encourage, you know, more people to come into the trades. John: Well, mike Rowe, yes, and you know, look, mike Rowe is an incredibly successful human being and you know, he has to show. You know, dirty jobs and I think kind of that's what we are. We're dirty jobs but we're networked. You know, I don't say we're essential. Essential is a COVID word that the government used to pick winners and losers. You know, you go to the hospital, david. Do they take your essential science or do they take your vital science? Sure, they take your vital science, right. So our industry is vital for the health of the nation. You don't build a hospital with us, right? You know, if you build a hospital, expand a hospital, you got to start where, on the ground floor, you have to start with the foundation, and that starts with rebar that starts. That comes from our industry. You want to build a school? Same thing. You want to build a highway. You know the steel used in the highway. You know, when you think this, 75% of all new steel in America is made from recycled steel Three quarters, that is a monstrous percentage and it's only growing. And you know another thing that is vital to national security is a vibrant steel industry. Okay, you don't build Navy ships with plastic. You don't build a military without steel, right? So you better have a very vibrant and strong steel industry, at the same time saying that America's steel industry is the cleanest steel industry in all the world. Over 75% of our steel mills are EAS electric arc furnace steel mills that use recycled steel to make new steel. Well, why is that important One? We're producing the steel a country needs for our infrastructure, for our military, healthcare, education and our farming and food industry. We also do it in the cleanest way, because recycled steel at EAF reduces CO2 emissions in the 60 percentile. And now that there's more micro mills coming online, more straight line casting of products and steel mills, with the new mills coming online, which reduce the energy consumption and reheating and continuous casting, so you're actually starting to see the numbers improve versus the BOF furnaces that you see that are heavy in China and India and Russia and Europe, south America yes, there are new EAFs going to those parts of the world, but their main steel production comes from the integrated steel mill that uses coking coal and iron ore, which is far greater pollutant, gives us far greater CO2 emissions. So not only is our steel industry vibrant in the United States, we are the cleanest in all the world. So we really are leading the way and I think people. That's kind of why I want to tell the story because people don't. You know we did man on the streets. You know you get me started on this, but you know people don't know steel's the most recycled item in America today. People don't even know what a steel mill is. They don't even know where new steel comes from. You drive a car. You don't have any idea. The majority of the metal in that car comes from recycled steel or recycled aluminum, for that matter. So people don't know this. So it's been kind of fun telling the story with Repurpose and we're getting ready to. We just finished filming everything we need for season three of repurpose. It's going to be on aluminum recycled aluminum and our focus will be on driving the auto industry okay, because you know this, david, that you cannot build an aluminum motor block transmission housing or casings differential casings with virgin aluminum I did not know that. Dave: And it has to be made from recycled aluminum. John: So see this. People don't know this and why is that? because of the alloys, the strength of the material. To take virgin aluminum and then make all, put in all the additives to make the motor block the strength, you, um, you can't do it. So they use recycled aluminum, and you know toyota is a big user. And also recycled aluminum, you know it goes into the light weighting of um automobiles, which gives you much greater miles per gallon and you know produces co2. So again, people don't know this and so I'm enjoying telling the story and getting it out there. Dave: I can tell you have a real passion for the education and helping change or improve the image of the whole industry. John: Well, I think that our policymakers, like in California, we have a real problem in the state of California the automobile shredder they want to deem it hazardous waste facilities and that's just not fair. It's not accurate to recycle for recycling in its own right, but it's hugely detrimental to the raw material supply chain for our industry here in america. That makes all these products that we need. You know we talk about when you take it in the life of an automobile, what do you do with it? And the end of life of an automobile. When you shred it, you gain the, the steel, the aluminum, the copper, stainless and plastics. And what do you do with that? You recycle it and that gets repurposed into new steel, new aluminum, new copper products, new stainless, and it's so. You know. It's just detrimental because our image, because I'll guarantee you, if you walk the halls in Sacramento and you told people, do you know the car you drive that has aluminum transmission housing, that has the aluminum motor block can't be made with virgin aluminum, they wouldn't know that. And this is part of the education process and I think once people know more about what our industry is, they'll realize how vital we are and that's really been a lot of fun for me and you know season three, as we're getting ready to do it gonna use. You know our facility here in bakersville is. You know where we process aluminum? We bail it in the bailers we make. And it's a lot of fun to be able to say the bailers we sell, that process that bail aluminum, are made from steel that comes from recycled steel from ssab. That we did in season one. So it really shows the circularity of our industry and what real sustainability really is. You know it's a buzzword and people, quite frankly, just have no clue what it really means. So I'm trying to bring out the real identity of our industry and try to really change the narrative because it needs to be changed. Once we were heroes during world war ii by supplying the mills with all the metals they needed to fight tyranny, and now we're the bad guys. Dave: Um, that's, we got to get back to being the good guys again I agree, could I mean I, you know just general building anything in California has become more challenging and regulatorily limited. Do you think somebody could even put in like a new shredder operation today, or would it just take? Them Wouldn't even be able to do it Because it's considered hazardous waste Is this considered hazardous waste? John: Yeah well, it's just the process. Nobody, you know, it's just a really crazy process, but you know you reminded me of something. So we have these just absolutely horrific, devastating fires in LA right, and we saw the whole Pacific Palisades and Altadena, the Pasadena area just devastated. What industry is going to rebuild those neighborhoods? Dave: Yeah, the steel industry. John: Well, so when you clean up these neighborhoods and we have a new piece of equipment down there processing the metals and sending it down to a company at Long Beach to process, it's our industry that's going to rebuild these neighborhoods. We're cleaning it up because what's what is left after the fires? Metal products, and all these metal products are being processed and going to be repurposed and sent to mills, steel mills, aluminum copper foundries, and all this new material that they're making from that raw material is what's going to go into rebuilding these neighborhoods. And you can't rebuild a neighborhood without us because we're the raw material suppliers for all that stuff that goes into the housing from the rebar, from the foundation, steel stuff. Now you're going to see a lot more steel being used in the manual in the building of houses in this area because of the fire. What about appliances? You don't build appliances with plastic. Easy-bake ovens aren't how you build refrigerators and ovens and toasters and coffee pots. And all the copper that's going to go into the electrification of these neighborhoods will have 36% recycled copper content into it. All the window panes that'll have aluminum windows and brass, you know, forurposing in it, getting into the consumers to make new products so you can rebuild, wow that's. I haven't thought about that for a second. Dave: Yeah. John: You know. And so the policymakers need to hear this. They need to understand that this is what we do. They need to understand this the most vital. Because, let's say, we don't exist in California. Well, what would you do with all that material? Can't ship it to China. China doesn't take containers of steel anymore. They don't buy bulk loads of steel anymore from the West Coast of the United States. They don't. That's just a misnomer. People, oh, you're sitting in China. They don't, that's just a misnomer. People, oh, you're sitting in China. No, we're not. And people think that, again, it's the ignorance Not calling people ignorant in a negative way. They just don't understand what we do. They don't understand where our materials are going, and I like to say CO2 emissions have no borders. So if Our materials are exported to an EAF steel mill somewhere maybe Malaysia, vietnam, korea, japan, if you will Well, our materials are also going into EAF. So what is that doing? It's reducing CO2 emissions. So our raw materials, be it used here in the US or be it used anywhere in the world, is actually helping to reduce the CO2 emissions in the world. Sure, actually helping to reduce the CO2 emissions in the world? Sure, you know, aluminum reduces CO2 emissions and energy consumption in the 90 percentile, copper's in the 80 percentile. You tell me an industry that's doing that today. You can't the recycled material industry. It's our raw materials that we process. So this is why this narrative, this is why these type of conversations, hopefully are heard by people who will now understand. Wait a minute, I've got this industry all wrong. Dave: Yeah, yeah. No, that's your your passion for trying to educate as many people as possible. It really shows through and you can see it really. It really drives you, so I appreciate it. Well, I can't wait to see season three. I can't believe how the time has flown by. Just wrapping up, I have just three remaining questions. John: Yes, sir. Dave: One is in your role with Sierra. What gives you the most satisfaction and enjoyment? John: Great question. Well, I think we have some great people here and I enjoy the people in the company I've seen in our, for instance. This is an example only and this is, you know, this could be had in every department, but we just have some really high quality people who really are fighting for the same cause. You know fighting, I call it fighting for the same right. And you know I get great satisfaction seeing these young kids who are growing. You know are technicians, for instance, who are growing, who've committed themselves to this culture and you see them growing and they're growing in their abilities and they're growing in their pay scales and you see their cooperative nature and how nature and how they have the can-do spirit. That gives me great pleasure. I enjoy doing this content as well. This gives me great pleasure making the REAP series. So those are my answers to that. Dave: That's great. That's not surprising. So the second of the three is imagine if you had a time machine and you could go back and give some advice to the 25-year-old John. What advice might you give with the benefit of hindsight? John: look, I didn't find what I really loved doing until I was about 59 years old. I'm 63, okay, so find what you love doing, that that beats money all day long. Yeah, and the money I just think, chasing money. You know it's great. You know I mean sure it's. You know I've done well, I'm not gonna begrudge it. But I think the one who smiles and is happiest wins the game of life, not the one with the biggest bank account. I look at Warren Buffett a guy worth just oodles and oodles. I've never seen that dude smile. He is just a grumpy old man. That's my perception of him, my point. And maybe he is a gregarious guy in person, but God, his persona is just grumpy. And my point to you is money doesn't buy happiness. Sure, it makes misery more tolerable, as my dad used to say. But I would tell a 25-year-old me stop chasing money and find happiness through what you love doing. Dave: A great answer. So the last question is is there anything that we did not discuss today that you wish we had? John: Well, no, I you know, I think, david, you know your, your company, with what you do, with your IT desk and helping with consulting. You know that's important. You know there's so many facets of our industry that people can improve upon, and I guess what we didn't talk on are areas in which how can an individual who sees this and is in the recycled materials industry capitalize on stuff that they don't know exists and what you do? I mean, I get what you do and so how do people really, where do they go to learn more about this industry and how they can improve their business? You know there's a lot of things that can be done. You got to be careful how you say this, because you know taxes are burdensome, especially when you live here in California. How can you have a legitimate business concern that can reduce your taxes legally? Because you know avoiding taxes is one thing, evading is illegal. You go to jail for evading taxes, and so you know it's hard because I'm not an accountant and I don't understand the whole time. But there's so much more, I think, for people to learn about our industry and I think, david, with what you're doing, with your setting up companies that are exporters, to understand the benefit of the laws that are out there for companies that export. People need to learn more about that, and I think that's you know. I wish I could have touched more on it. I don't know it like you do, but it is something that I think that's what I would say is to help people learn. There's other avenues to make your business grow and save some of your money, and when you save legally on taxes, you're saving money, so you can invest that in your company. Dave: No, I appreciate you mentioning that. And you know, my most satisfying part of my role is helping our entrepreneurial clients, you know, increase their after-tax income. It's really just. It's such a privilege to be, you know, kind of in the stands watching these amazing entrepreneurs do their magic. And you know, we have scrap metal clients who have, you know, the last decade have, you know, increased their business 10X. And I'm not saying that's because of the IC disc, it probably has little to do with it, but it's just a great. It's just very enjoyable to see the best and the brightest entrepreneurs, just, you know, do their magic. So that's why I love, why I'll be at the REMA conference in May. I can't spend enough time with those people. It's a blast. Well, john, thank you again for your time and I look forward to seeing you in San Diego in a couple of months. John: I presume, yes, sir, I'll be there. I'll be coming for my son's graduation at TCU, so I'll arrive. I'll miss some of the governance you know, as a former chair you're always involved with that but I'll be there for the show and I'll have my. My son is will be a graduate and I will have no more kids going to school. Dave: That's awesome. Well, that's also a landmark event. Well, hey, john, thank you again for your time. I really appreciate it, Thank you. Special Guest: John Sacco.

L'idée d'annexer le Canada aux États-Unis, évoquée avec insistance par Donald Trump, est farfelue en apparence, mais elle a de profondes racines historiques. L'historien et journaliste Dave Noël raconte comment, dès la naissance de la République américaine, des tentatives d'annexion du Canada ont eu lieu.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, we had Scott Abels on the show to discuss his work as the owner of Precision Valuation Services. Scott has been in the business valuation game for over a decade and has helped over a hundred companies with business valuations. He fills us in on his two-part strategy for boosting a business's value. First, Scott runs the numbers to give owners an accurate picture of where they stand today. Then, he guides them through personalized steps to substantially increase that worth over time. Beyond the valuation nuts and bolts, we also dig into Scott's role as a business coach. How he really takes the time to understand each client's unique situation and goals. Plus, Scott keeps things straightforward with transparent, flat fees. All in all, If you want to learn how assessing and growing your business from the inside out can pay off big time, give it a listen.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Scott Abels specializes in business valuations and operates Precision Valuation Services, aiming to increase a company's value through a two-step process. We discuss Scott's expertise in conducting over a hundred business valuations and his 13 years of experience in the field. Scott's approach involves a formal valuation to determine current business worth followed by a strategic process to enhance that value. We cover Scott's background as a CFO and how it provides a unique perspective on business valuation compared to traditional CPA views. Scott shares real-life examples, such as identifying profit leakage due to incorrect pricing and over-delivering on customer service. Scott details how a comprehensive valuation and growth coaching can help businesses plan for a more profitable future and prepare for potential exit strategies. We explore the value of Scott's flat fee structure for his services, which helps eliminate surprises and empowers clients financially. Scott offers an initial consultation to deeply understand client needs and is willing to invest his own time to assess the potential to help them. Scott is open to answering listener questions about his services and expresses a strong passion for helping entrepreneurs grow their businesses. We highlight the joy of working with business entrepreneurs and the fulfillment that comes from helping them succeed and contribute to economic growth. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Precision Value Services GUEST Scott AbelsAbout Scott TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, my name is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Scott Abels. Scott owns a company called Precision Valuation Services and they work with privately held entrepreneurial companies who are wanting to increase the value of their organization. Scott does it with a two-step approach. The first is he does a formal valuation to see what the current value of the business is, and then he has a process that he takes his clients through to help them increase their enterprise value. It was an interesting conversation. Scott's got a great background and he's laser focused on helping entrepreneurs be even more valuable and have more valuable companies. Good morning Scott. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning Dave. It's good to be with you. So are you in the mountains somewhere or are you here in Texas somewhere? Scott: No, I'm just bragging about my summer trip to the Smoky Mountains. Here as the background, I'm talking to you from Flugerville, Texas which is just outside of Austin. Dave: Awesome. Well, I'm glad that you could make it. So let's get right to it. You are. I believe you call yourself, or some of your clients call you, a enterprise growth coach, or did I butcher that description? How do you describe yourself? Scott: Yes, the growth coach. That's exactly how I describe it. And what does that? Dave: mean, do you help them, like go to the gym and lift weights and get bigger and stronger, or is there something different? Scott: Well, it's kind of lifting weights for your business. Is that maybe a way to finish that analogy? So what I try to do is to help business owners first of all figure out what their business is worth today and then figure out how to make it worth more in the future. And this is especially helpful, as you can imagine, for a business owner who is maybe planning to exit his business. You know, eight or 10 years, whatever down the road, that's going to be his retirement, and so he knows what he wants his retirement income stream to look like. But maybe it's not quite there today, Maybe the value of his business is not quite where he needs it to be. And so the growth coach program is to help business owners like that or any other business owner who just wants to take his business today and grow it and make it more valuable in the future. Dave: Okay, and is it a whole comprehensive program, or can they just start by having you do the valuation first and see where it goes from there? Scott: Yes, dave, usually where we start is with the valuation to see where the business owner is today, and then the growth coach program is done on a month by month basis, but there is a structure to it where we walk the business owner through working on the key drivers of their business that drive value, that either improve value or that help to eliminate negative value, if you will. So it really is done on a month by month basis. It's not a long-term commitment or anything like that, and I find, dave, that really puts the focus on me helping them to achieve results quickly. So if they're not seeing the results that they want, they don't have to continue with the program. But it is very helpful and it definitely helps business owners to get to where they want to be Okay. Dave: And so if they want to just start with the valuation and then go from there, they can right. Scott: Yes, and actually a lot of clients do come to me for the valuation first for various reasons. It could be to buy or sell their business, it could be to transfer shares of interest to family members or to key employees. It could be for any variety of reasons, and often what happens is the natural discussion that we have about hey, here's the value of your business, mr Business Owner, and here's a couple of things that I see in your business, using my CFO background, that if we could improve these, your business could be worth even more. And oftentimes then it involves into, it evolves into a growth coach program or a growth coach opportunity. Dave: Okay, and it seems like one of the biggest complaints of that our clients have shared with me when they have the valuation done is that it just seems to take forever. They needed the valuation yesterday. They really don't have 60 days to do it, which I understand that 60 days is kind of a normal turnaround time, but do you have any options where you can have, like an expedited turnaround time? Scott: Yes, absolutely, and so I should go back, I think, first Dave, and just also add so my background is really as a CFO, as a leader of a financial leader, a executive of a business division of a larger business, so really in corporate America Dell and Motorola. So my background is kind of unique in that I approach that business valuation from the perspective of a CFO as opposed to the perspective of a CPA, who may be a tax CPA or something. To answer your question, the typical turnaround time you're right for the industry is probably 60 to maybe even 90 days. But we really strive to be able to provide expedited delivery to these business owners because oftentimes there's some kind of an event, there's some kind of a deadline that they have. So I offer pricing that is pressing for a standard valuation with a 45 day delivery timeframe, and then I also offer pricing for expedited delivery as little as two weeks, and of course the prices is more when you need that kind of option, but it is there for the business owners who need it and who are really pressed for time. Dave: Okay, well, that is good to know. Okay, so have you done many valuations? I mean, is it a couple, is it a dozen, is it more than a hundred? I mean, is this your first rodeo at doing this valuation stuff? Scott: Actually, I've done more than a hundred of these things and I've been doing business valuations for about 13 years, when I originally I left corporate America after about 25 years, started my own business and initially I started out as a fractional CFO and I enjoyed that work. What I found was it was very competitive and very price sensitive, very much driven by the price. But I had clients who needed help with business valuation and so I went off and got the CPA credential which is essentially a CPA for business valuators went off and got the credential and started doing business valuations for some of my clients and figured out a couple of things. I really enjoy doing these. The valuation is like a business puzzle and having a CFO's mindset. It just naturally fits with what I enjoy doing, and there's also not nearly as many people who can do these things and do them well. There are some folks who dabble in these, but there's very few folks like myself who do nothing but business valuation. That is solely what I do, so I spend almost 100% of my time working on either business valuation or the growth coach which evolves out of that. Dave: Okay, so what are the characteristics of a company, who you are best positioned to help and add value? You're either kind of revenue size or other characteristics that somebody's listening to this they think, oh, he's describing me. Scott: I need to call Scott, so I would say that the size, the kind of the sweet spot is maybe from two to $10 million, is where I see the revenue yes, that's annual revenue. That's where I see the majority of my clients, but I see some there smaller for sure, and I see a number that are bigger as well. This is for the valuation is usually driven by some kind of a need that the client has and again, like I said, it may be a buy-sell need, it may be a tax-driven need, it could be a divorce, it could be any number of reasons that they need that. So oftentimes it doesn't so much matter even the size of the business if they really have that need to get the business valued and they have to have a third-party valuation. That's what really kind of drives the valuation side of things On the growth coach though what we're really, what we really are most successful there is. As I said, business is probably between two and $10 million generally, but they could be larger and businesses that are maybe doing good today, but they'd like to do even better, and ideally they're looking down the road and saying, hey, my business is $2 million in sales today, but I'd like to get it to $10 or $20 million and more profitable than it is today. How do I do that? And so growth coach is a perfect solution for those types of business owners who maybe they're doing okay, but they'd like to figure out how to do better, especially with an eye towards the future. Dave: Okay, that is helpful. Do you have an example that you could share with someone, either just on the peer valuation side or the growth coach side, somebody who came to you with a challenge and you were able to, you know, add value? Just, I just find personalizing and having stories helps the whole message resonate better. Do you have a success story or two you can share? Scott: Yeah, I've got a couple I've got one on each side there today that I can share. Let's talk about the growth coach side first. So I think about a client recently that has a service business, and they are here. They were here in Austin and it was an established business that was making several million dollars a year. They had a couple of different product lines or service lines, I should say and they had been pretty profitable for a number of years. And just over the last 18 months or so their profitability had just started to dry up and they were doing more revenue than ever. So the business owners came to me and they said hey look, our revenue is growing and we got this new cool service that's really profitable but for whatever reason, we're just not seeing the bottom line profit. Can you help us figure this out? And so by doing some analysis for this business, we were able to quickly help them figure out a couple of things. Number one this new service that they were really touting and trying to sell as much of this as they could. It was not priced. It was actually priced at below break even. Dave: Oh no. Scott: And the reason was because, obviously, the business owners are not cost accountants, so they figured out what the direct costs were that were related, you know, the technicians and their time, but they didn't factor in any of the overhead or some of the other indirect costs, and it was a pretty significant amount that they were missing, and so they weren't fully collecting the you know the fully burdened cost for this service. And so the answer and they're busy bidding these projects as fast as they can, and so the answer was really very simple. For that we were able to calculate a new, better hourly rate. They would bid these projects based on the number of hours and an average hourly rate. We were just able to say, hey look, your hourly rate was X, and so you need to add this much to it, and if you do, then you're going to be profitable again. The second thing that they had going on, though, was on the other revenue stream, the old revenue stream. They had one customer that was pretty big part of that, and this was their quote, unquote their great customer, you know their cornerstone customer, and what I found out is I did the analysis was I found out that they were selling this customer a certain level of service, maybe here, but the actual service they were providing was way up here and as you talk to the actual technicians and the folks who served that customer, you realize that the customer is getting whatever you want to call it deluxe level service, but they were paying for standard level service. So this customer is really not profitable at all. Dave: No wonder the customer, no wonder the customer loved them so much, no wonder they're their favorite, most happy customer. Scott: So I was able to show them, you know, that this customer was really not again, was not profitable, and they thought this was their poster boy, if you will, customer. And this had just happened over time. Is what we noticed, dave, was that over time, you know, the technicians or the folks who serve these customers had just kind of been, you know, just generously adding in a little bit of this and a little bit of that, a little bit more of my time, and so over time, this customer really evolved into an unprofitable account. So the combination of those two things made a huge difference for this business and they quickly found their profitability again, even better than it was before, and as they were growing, you know, their profits really accelerated quickly. So that's an example on the growth coach side of things. Dave: That's great, I can give you one on the valuation side please. Scott: This was a lot quicker. So I had a client who the client was the I guess it was the surviving children. The father had owned a business interest it was like a 1.9% interest in a successful electronics business there in Houston, and so the father had passed away and the children were just simply trying to liquidate his interest so that they could just divide his estate up and close out the estate. Well, the business had some super high-powered attorneys I think it was Vincent and Elkins actually was their attorneys and they came back to this family with a value for that interest of like $40,000. That's what they wanted to pay him. And so the family said, okay, well, if that's what it is. And so luckily, their attorney talked them into getting evaluation and what I found very quickly was the value that business interest was over $400,000. So it was a 10x difference in value. Dave: Maybe it was an honest mistake. Maybe they just forgot a zero. You know those honest mistakes never seem to be to the benefit of the person not making the honest mistake. Scott: Well, I'm not going to say that there was ill will, there was negative will there on the side of the business, but I will say that the difference was huge and for the cost of evaluation, for a few thousand dollars, they were able to realize a 10x return on that, which was a fair return in the first place. So you know, stories like that are there especially make you feel really good when you're able to really help people that they wouldn't have been able to do this on their own. Dave: Sure, yeah, those are two great examples. I like that. That first example their most profitable line and their most profitable customer that they're so excited about, turned out to be not their most profitable customer and not their most profitable service line. Scott: Yeah, and you know, dave, the thing that I find in working with business owners is, like I said, that unprofitable customer evolved over a number of years so that customer started out being their best customer. Maybe they're only customer, I don't know, but over the years it just the pricing and the service, the way that they provided the service, just got a little sloppy. And a lot of businesses that I see don't have a lot of discipline in the way that they price their services. They priced it at whatever it was priced at 10 years ago when they made it up, and plus 10% or something. But they haven't taken the time, maybe lately to go through there and really say, okay, what should it be priced at today? Is it at a reasonable price or not? And maybe if their bottom line is positive, relatively positive, they may feel like it's that it's where it needs to be. But a lot of times when you do that kind of analysis around pricing which is one of the things that we would do in the growth coach program you may find areas of opportunity there that they didn't even know existed. Dave: So it sounds. I hear your enthusiasm and passion for this work. What is it about this? You know, just aside from the dollars and cents, did you find so satisfying about serving these clients? Scott: Well, I like I may have said this earlier to me this is a business puzzle and I just enjoy the challenge of being able to unravel what may seem like a really complicated thing to the business owner, but to unravel it for them, to explain to them what's going on and then to help them, to help them to be better off at the end of the day. And so part of it is just, intellectually, I enjoy the challenge of these, of the business puzzle, if you will. And secondly, it's just it's nice to be able to to walk away from helping a client knowing that you've done something for them that is added value, that they're ecstatic about, that they couldn't have done for themselves. And so, just like you and I, would go to a specialist for whatever it is that we might be doing, business valuation for a lot of people is a specialization that they really need. They need somebody on their side, somebody to help them understand this stuff, and I just enjoy doing that. Dave: Yeah, that really resonates with me because that's how our business is, that, yeah, we add value. But the part I find most satisfying is just the sense that you've made a difference, you've helped. And, of course, my heroes are entrepreneurs. So the fact I get to work with entrepreneurs all day is I find to be just very satisfying that I feel like I'm helping the heroes of the economy. You know, just do a little bit to help them, be a little better at it. Scott: Yeah, let me add. I want to add on that too, dave, I completely with you on that. You know, having spent 25 years the majority of my career really in corporate America, I saw some really sharp people and some hardworking people. But I can tell you now, having spent 13 years with business entrepreneurs, people who they don't get a paycheck from some company on a, you know, bi-weekly basis, they have to go out and do it themselves, and I can't tell you how enjoyable it is to work with these types of people. They're usually, they're usually intelligent or they're, you know, studious people. They're driven and passionate about what they do. They're very positive and upbeat people and it just feels like a good crowd to hang with. Right, I mean, it's a positive, uplifting experience working for these clients, as opposed to, you know, working in a post office or something like that. Dave: Right, yeah, just being a cog. Scott: Exactly, I can really understand your point about working with these entrepreneurs and just how, how enjoyable it is. You know, it's just good to work with people like that. 0:19:01 - Dave: Yeah, and I think, if I'm correct, I think the data shows that the vast majority of new jobs in this country come from those smaller entrepreneurial companies. It's not the Fortune 500 companies that are creating the net jobs, and I hesitate to think that an additional government job is progress towards anything. Scott: Yeah, agreed. Dave: So what's the best way? If somebody wants to reach out to you, can they reach out on LinkedIn? Is that a good way to? Scott: LinkedIn is a great way. I've got all my email and the phone numbers and things on there on email on LinkedIn, on my profile page. That's probably the easiest way. I've also got a website that they could visit precisioncfosolutionscom, and that's, like I said, linkedin is probably the easiest way to reach out to me. Dave: If they just want to cut to the chase and just give you a call, what's the number they should call? Scott: 5.30 and that's my cell number. It comes directly to me, okay. Dave: Now, if somebody calls you, though, do they need to be careful that the clock's going to start ticking after the first minute and they're going to get a big bill for you if they only talk to you for half an hour? Scott: 45 minutes, no, and that's another pet peeve of mine, Dave. I think you and I may be on the same page on this one too. I don't charge for the initial consultation and, frankly, I don't charge the client until we both agree on the scope of work, whatever that is, and we both agree that we want to do it. And oftentimes that means that I have invested some of my time already to get there. Things like an initial phone call just to understand whether or not I can even help them with what they've got, or whether we need to maybe refer them to someone else if I can't. Things like initially looking at their financials. So oftentimes, to figure out the fee structure for the particular client, I need to see what the financials are and ask a few questions about what's going on there, how complex is the business entities and that sort of thing, and I don't charge the clients for that. So the other thing that I really I think is really beneficial to my clients as well is everything we do is based on a flat fee Okay what the fee is going to be, and it will never be more than that. It may be less than that, but it will never be more, and I think this really empowers the client because they know what they're going to spend. It's not going to be a penny more unless we both agree that we want to add something to the scope of the work. But otherwise I believe the flat fee structure really empowers the client, gives them a good feeling that they know what the cost is going to be. The other thing is it does. Is it really? Again, I think it incentivizes me to get my work done as efficiently as I can. But ultimately, like your original question, there's going to be there'll be a fair amount of conversation I may have with these clients before we ever even talk about what the fees are and the fee actually starts Okay. Dave: And if you're anything like me, that's probably your. Maybe the favorite part of your day is getting a phone call from somebody out of the blue that starts with hey Sunso, gave me your name. They said you might be able to help me. All right, don't you love those calls because you're like what's going on? Tell me what's up, what's the story, drill down, figure out if you can help them or not. Scott: Yeah, exactly Exactly. I enjoy getting those kinds of calls and you know, dave, I just tell my clients look, if a 10 minute conversation with me will save you a couple of hours trying to figure it out on your own, I'm happy to do that. Whether it's on the front end of engagement, whether it's on the back end of an engagement later on, or whether it's a client that I'm not even going to do work for, I'm happy to give a few minutes of my time because I think it. Number one, I just enjoy being able to help people solve problems and number two, you know, as we know, it all you know evens out. In the end it all kind of pays, pays itself forward. I think when you do the right thing for the clients, they can't wait to tell their friends hey, this guy did this for me and he didn't even charge, you know. And ultimately, you and I are looking for happy clients who get what they need done. Dave: Yep, I agree. Well, as we're around in the home stretch, I've got a couple of questions for you that I'm hoping will be a little bit curveball likes. I'm hoping to kind of put you on the hot seat. All right, go. So the first one. It's real simple, it's one sentence. I'm not going to clarify what I mean. You just have to give me your gut answer. Okay, tax max or barbecue? Scott: That is really close. I'd say tax max. But barbecue is probably 1B, so yeah, tax max. That's where I usually go for on the weekends. Dave: The best answer I received to that question. I'm going to get who it was and they said it depends. If I know it's going to be like top 10 percentile barbecue, I'll take the barbecue. If I know it's just going to be average, I'll take the Mexican food, because the tax max has more tolerance for imperfection. Would have to agree with that. Scott: It sounds like an engineer's answer to me. Dave: I mean a tough old piece of brisket. That's like chewing an old piece of leather. Scott: I mean no matter how tasty it is. Dave: it's not a great experience, but, heck, I can go to Taco Bell and make do right, if I'm hungry. It doesn't have to be world class, okay well, that one was pretty easy. This one's a little tougher. This one may make you think so. If you had a time machine and you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self with the knowledge that you've had over the last you know, few decades, what advice might you give to yourself? You? Scott: know I get to do that, something similar to that, with my kids who are of that age now. The advice I would give to myself is I would have started my own business much sooner, when I was younger, you know, before I had kids to provide for and such. Start early building the value of that business. Whatever it is, you're going to learn so much from that. You may fail along the way You're going to learn, but you're going to learn a tremendous amount and by the time you get to be our age now, the benefits of that would just pay off dramatically. I think my background in corporate America is really good, but a background as a business owner, I think, is it cannot be matched. If you want to do the things like you and I, you want to run your own business and ultimately, if you want to generate wealth. You need to own your own business right Because if you're working for somebody else you're generating wealth for them, and then you have an income stream that will end when you stop working. And if you own a business, you have generated wealth and you have other options. You can. You know you could sell that business if you want and take the equity you built. But yeah, I would. That's what I would do. I would have started my own business much sooner and learned the ropes. Dave: That is probably the most common answer to that question oh, interesting, yeah, they had struck out on their own sooner. Well, I think we've covered a fair amount. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you think we should talk about? Anything that you think we should have? Scott: I think we've covered. I think we've covered most everything and I appreciate you having me, having me on the podcast with you here, and I would love to you know, to help any of your listeners If they've got questions, however big or small, I'd love to be able to help them with that or point them in the right direction. So thank you so much for having me and my pleasure, I enjoyed it. Dave: My pleasure. I appreciate you carving time out of your day and I hope you hope the rest of your day is great and I'll look forward to catching up with you another time. Thank you, Dave. Thanks for having me All right. Special Guest: Scott Abels.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I spoke with Geoff Bruskin of White Tiger Connections. Geoff provided his unique perspective on how a martial arts background influenced his visionary approach to accounting. He emphasized niche specialization as a winning strategy and offered case studies on recruiting and M&A success stories. Geoff also addressed the talent crisis through remote hiring. Additionally, the discussion delved into the evolving landscape of accounting firm acquisitions and metrics key for private equity interest. Lastly, Geoff highlighted critical steps for transitioning to remote operations, leveraging outsourcing to boost efficiency, and preparing firms for future selling opportunities.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I interviewed Geoff Bruskin, founder of White Tiger Connections, who shared his insights on niche specialization in the public accounting sector and how his martial arts background influenced his business approach. Geoff discussed the current talent crisis in accounting and highlighted remote hiring as a strategic solution, offering case studies to illustrate successful recruiting and M&A projects. We explored the four main types of buyers in accounting firm acquisitions: small accounting firms, regional or national firms, financial services firms, and private equity buyers, along with key metrics like EBITDA and gross revenue that attract private equity interest. Geoff emphasized the importance of transitioning to a remote client model to make accounting firms more appealing to potential buyers and discussed the benefits of training clients in remote interactions. We talked about outsourcing high-volume, low-value tasks to international teams to enhance efficiency and allow domestic talent to focus on more complex and high-value work. Geoff shared a case study of a rural firm struggling with debt due to hiring challenges and inefficiencies, suggesting an overseas model for high-volume work to improve financial health. We discussed the synergy between accounting and financial services firms, especially in light of the significant wealth transfer occurring as baby boomers retire. Geoff invited listeners to explore networking opportunities with White Tiger Connections, directing them to their website and LinkedIn profile for more information. Throughout the episode, Geoff provided actionable strategies for accounting firm owners to navigate acquisitions, improve efficiency, and prepare for a successful future. We concluded the episode with Geoff's insights on how accounting firms can position themselves for growth and potential mergers and acquisitions by adopting innovative operating models.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Geoff Bruskin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoff-bruskin-14184865/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About White Tiger Connections GUEST Geoff BruskinAbout Geoff TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, my name is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Geoff Ruskin, the founder of White Tiger Connections, and he has a really interesting business in that he's hyper-focused on serving mid-market CPA firms in three ways recruiting, mergers and acquisitions work and other consulting. This was a broad ranging conversation and he had some interesting client stories of success and other outcomes with a variety of different CPA firms. So if you manage a CPA firm or own a CPA firm, this is a really interesting interview and there's a lot to take away from it. And even if you don't. If you use the services of a CPA firm, there's probably some interesting things to keep in mind from the customer side, so I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Hi, Geoff, welcome to the podcast. Geoff: Thanks, David, glad to be here with you. Dave: Yeah, it's my pleasure. So where are you calling into from today? Geoff: I am in Long Island, new York, right in the heart of Nassau County, east of Brooklyn, in a little town called Massapequa. Dave: Okay, I've actually been to Long Island visiting some potential clients at the, I think, the far near the Eastern tip. Geoff: Yeah, the island's a great place. It's got something for everybody. The traffic is terrible, as it is around any major Metro. It used to be that if you were reverse commuting into the city from the Island it was fine, but now everywhere is congested. But I take that as a good sign. People like living here. Dave: Yeah, I would agree. Now, are you a native of Long Island? Geoff: From Connecticut originally and found my way to Long Island when my wife and two kids and I were looking for a place to call home. Dave: Oh, that's awesome. So tell me about your company. I see you're involved in several things, but let's talk about White Tiger. So where did the name come from? What do you? Geoff: guys do. How did it get started? Tiger style martial arts. It saved my life on more than one occasion. That's a story for another day. But as a way of showing respect to everything I had learned in the martial arts, which is not only things which are self-defense oriented, but definitely things that one can use in the boardroom as well, decided to name the company after the tiger style. And so what we do? So we are, as of today, january 16, 2024, we're about a four and a half year old company, founded in August of 2019, right before COVID started, and we do pretty much everything for public accounting firms except for public accounting. Okay, accounting Found our way into this space from the recruiting ecosystem. So my background is I did executive recruiting for venture and private equity-backed tech companies when I started my career and started my firm, as I said, four and a half years ago, and we started off as just a recruiting firm doing mostly middle market recruiting David for financial services and tech companies. And very shortly after founding, I was blessed to be introduced to Emeritus PWC guy who, in his retirement, was doing strategy work for $100 million public accounting firms. So companies like Marks Paneth, which was recently acquired by CBiz, friedman, which was recently acquired by Markham Anshin Block and Anshin PKF O'Connor Davies. These were really prestigious nine-figure public accounting firms in the New York metro area and he did two things for these clients. He did executive recruitment for them and he also did mergers and acquisitions for them. And so I came in with him to help him with his partner level recruiting projects for those large accounting firms and I got to ride shotgun to him on some very cool M&A projects learn how to do diligence, learn how to do integration, learn what not to do, and there are plenty of things that we should all avoid in an M&A capacity. And I haven't looked back. So that mentor of mine he retired to Israel. He's safe and sound in Tel Aviv today, and my business partner and I she's in Georgia, I'm here in New York we decided we wanted to be subject matter experts in accounting and we haven't looked back so just a few short years ago. But we've built a pretty formidable practice doing recruiting and M&A and consulting for accounting firms in the last three years. Dave: Okay, well, thank you. That's a great, a great overview and I love the niche focus right. So many you know search firms. You ask them, you know what specialization they have, and they're like oh no, we do everything. Any industry, secretaries to CEO of a fortune 10 company, we just do it all. Just call us with anything, which means you call them with nothing. Geoff: I like the niche it's. You know I can appreciate the diversity because you want to. You know, I guess for me personally, I never want to get bored. I always want to stay stimulated and having fun. But all people are different. So I might talk to 10 or 15 accounting firm owners a day, which we usually do, and every single one of those conversations is vastly different. So I have a lot of fun with it. Dave: That's awesome. So myself and my listeners love case studies. So can we go through two or three examples? And I understand if you'll need to keep the names anonymous, but let's through these case studies, let's give examples of the type of projects you all are really well positioned to take on. Sure. Geoff: So I'll start with a recruiting project and then I'll go to two M&A projects and then we'll talk, maybe just briefly, about consulting at the end. So there's a lot of talk about the talent crisis in accounting today. That's a really big thing. One of the mechanisms that I've seen a lot of success in is hiring remote employees. It doesn't mean that in-office staff is a thing of the past, but I think that business owners, accountants in particular, because there are simply not enough accountants in the sector. I've read statistics like 80% of CPAs are retiring by 2031. I don't know if I believe that. I think that's maybe a little far-fetched, but needless to say, there are not enough young people to do the mid-level work and there are not enough college people to do the low-level work and there are not enough hungry and competent middle-aged people to do the higher work. So we have to be creative. So a lot of my clients will say, well, it sounds great, but it can't be done. And I have one client which is an example of the opposite. They're about a 50 person firm based in a major metro area. They exclusively do tax work for ultra high net worth individuals. So personal tax, no entity tax on families that have more than nine figures in wealth. They are a 100% remote company. Dave: And I love the niche. I love the niche focus. Geoff: Totally niche focused, yeah, which I think you know is great, and I don't think it's required that accounting firms be totally niche, but it certainly helps, right, and you know that's another topic. But but so we, you know we were engaged by them to find them a strong manager, senior manager who had experience working with clients at that level in a tax capacity and had the cultural gravitas that they could be a self-starter, which is necessary in a remote environment. You can't have somebody who is not motivated, not self-motivated. So, and it took us about 90 days and we found a phenomenal person on the opposite coast who, seven months later, is still very happy, and I know that they're happy and the client is happy because they engaged us for a second project a couple of weeks ago. Dave: That's awesome. Geoff: So, so that's great so. Dave: I'm just curious about that project. Sure, so, being on opposite coasts, does the person ever meet in person with the team, or is it always been remote? Did they come to New York to interview or to the East Coast to interview? Geoff: So I think that I think they do a once annual offsite, but there was no in-person interviewing at all. I have to say I think their interviewing process is something that other firms should follow. It was so crisp and neat. They had people subordinates of this person, contemporaries of this person and seniors of this person, as well as HR interviewing them in 20 to 25 minute blocks and 60 to 90 minute meetings and it was just so crisp and it left the candidate feeling really taken care of and, like this firm, had their act together and a lot of candidates are repelled from accounting firms because it can feel very chaotic process, which I understand. You're managing internal stakeholders, your own concerns, but this firm just did a phenomenal job. Dave: That is awesome. Offline, I may want to get an introduction from you to this firm, because many of our clients would fall into that category for this, and I'm not really aware of another firm that has that, that has that focus, so so that's really. That's really interesting because it's. I heard somebody to say that Zoom is not a communications platform. It's a transportation alternative platform the way to travel anywhere in the world from without leaving your desk. Geoff: And you know, within a few years. And this we're not talking about technology, but you know, beam me up, scotty the. You know the Star Trek program, you know it's. You know it's a slow walk to our craziest imagination. So you know, I have conversations regularly with guys and gals who are in their seventies and talk about how their father or mother retired from the business, when usually it's father, you know, in the 19,. You know, whatever the invention of the calculator, even you know computer, but the calculator, so you know it's. We're going through leaps and bounds of change. I think the change is happening faster than it's ever happened. And you know, innovator or perish is the truth. Dave: Sure, I remember when I started Arthur Anderson in Houston in 1987, that there were partners there who remembered when it was mandatory to wear a hat to work, Like when you think about movies from like the thirties, forties, 50s men, that was just part of their attire. Right, it's part of the suit, and if they're in a tuxedo then they had, you know, a more formal hat. But like, have you ever seen the show? Leave it to Beaver. The father would come home. he would, you know, always take the hat off and hang it up, so it's interesting just to see you know the changes and so, yeah, so that is interesting, okay, so that's on the recruiting front. Let's talk about. Let's talk about some of the M&A stuff. M&a always sounds sexier than recruiting, so it does and it's David it's. Geoff: It sounds sexier. It seldom is so I. So first I'll share with you kind of a war story and then I'll share with you one which is probably about as sexy as it sounds. So one of the major things that my firm does now is there's a lot of non-accounting buyers of accounting firms. Yeah, I've heard that. So we certainly. So. I guess there's kind of four classifications for buyers. One would be the small accounting firm buying an even smaller accounting firm. One would be the regional or national accounting firm buying a smaller accounting firm. Then you have the financial services firm buying an accounting firm, which has really emerged onto the scene in a very big way in the last 12 months, and I think we're going to continue to see velocity there, and it's a topic that I'm fascinated with and would love to talk more about it. And then the fourth is more of the private equity buyer, and a lot of firms are too small to really, or, too, you have to either be a certain level of size and a certain level of niche to draw interest from the private equity buyer Typical. Dave: Let me just interrupt. What's a typical size or metric in either partner count or revenue size to have interest from a PE buyer? Geoff: It's much more driven by EBITDA and gross revenue secondarily than it is partner account or staff operating model of the firm. I mean a lot of people will say 3 million in EBITDA is the number. I think it's a little less than that. The reason why that number is considered market standard is because below that number in free cash flow, the burden of replacing the C-level people who may or may not be retiring, as well as other critical people in the organization, engaging consultants and vendors to backfill it makes the unpredictability of what you're buying too risk-heavy if you don't have enough freestanding cash to justify whatever changes could be necessary. If things go belly up for the buyer and then gross top line and this is more of an objective comment we like to see firms that are kind of a healthy class of firms or doing north of 40% EBITDA. 30 to 40 is considered moderate, acceptable to a lot of buyers for sure. And then you know less than 30% EBITDA and you know it's considered that you have room for improvement Doesn't mean nobody will buy your practice. A lot of people buy houses that need some work. It just you know kind of at the objective level how the market is looked at. Financial services are very interested in as you can Clients probably. Well, very interested in the clients tax-driven firms, I was going to say because the clients exactly to your point. There's a significant cross and upselling opportunity for them. It's not that they're opposed always to accounting work, cfo work, bookkeeping, entity work, but in financial services firms can sell employee benefit plans, they can sell all kinds of vehicles that are beneficial to an entity and if you have CFO level relationship, great. But the main vehicle for driving revenue to most financial services firms, at least that I've worked with successfully, is their asset management capability. And one of the reasons it's sexy not only for the buyer but for the seller as well to consider if you have a tax driven practice, to consider selling to a financial services firm, is because we're in the largest wealth transfer in history, as all of the baby boomers in all categories are preparing to exit trillions of dollars to their dependent, excuse me, to their heirs. The four or fifth generation family office client that you're working with may not have a successor and if your clients are planning a liquidity event, you, as the person with all of that relationship equity, mr Accountant has the opportunity to participate in some of your clients' liquid assets being managed by your financial advisory buyer and there's some nuances legally to how you can collect on that, but they are surmountable nuances. So there's a lot of synergy, especially if you have clients who are impending an exit or are on the higher net worth side for partnering with a financial advisory firm in an M&A capacity. And that is actually the first scenario I want to talk about, david. So I have a financial advisory client in the Northeast Like traditional financial advisory, AUM driven, comprehensive wealth management. Exactly, they're a four partnerpartner consortium inside of a four-advisor RIA. Okay and phenomenal culture, really nice guys. And they had tapped a young guy who was working on a trading desk for them to go and get his CPA license. So this young guy, at the age of 29, is a CPA. He's built organically a $100,000, $150,000 book of tax business, both individuals and entities nothing crazy. Very smart, very motivated. And they were looking for a practice for him to acquire so that with them, participate in the acquisition, help him fund it and obviously the channel opportunity on both sides. So we found I found a firm, my firm found a firm with a little less than a million in revenue. It was, it's in a very affluent town in the Northeast and perfect synergy. Owners. Retiring made a lot of sense. Younger partner was at this firm as well. Retiring made a lot of sense. Younger partner was at this firm as well and you know the younger partner was not going to be the successor to the older guy was more of a back office person than a radio worker, if you will, very competent, but back office and it was perfect. And six to eight months later, just a few of the hiccups that occurred, the young guy when we once we started conversations and it got real to him that in his mid-30s he would be going through a transfer of some kind, he left the accounting firm and took the largest client with him and did that because he actually went in-house. He joined them and it's a name that everybody listening to this podcast will know, and I will, of course, and it's a name that everybody listening to this podcast will know and I will, of course, not breach confidentiality and share it. But you know, mega client, you know, perhaps a good career move for him, perhaps not. The younger guy Totally convoluted the situation and it just made a lot of other hairy bats come out of the bag. But as of last Friday, that deal finally closed half the size of what we thought it was going to be. And you know, I guess, bragging about myself for a minute, one of the things that I do that's a little different than other brokers in the market, david is I am a neutral referee to these transactions. Brokers will either just represent the buyer or the seller. My firm represents both parties. We take half of our fee from both parties. Interesting, and we do that because we in accounting and accounting, m&a specifically unlike, say, real estate or manufacturing, where you have very hard asset driven purchases what someone is buying in accounting is an intangible asset. They're buying a book of relationships, perception of. There's nothing tying the client to your firm except for goodwill. Because of that, in traditional transactions the seller is expected in the open market to bear the majority of the burden on M&A. Dave: Yeah, it's usually done on more like an earn out type basis and tied to collection. Geoff: So, with that in mind, it's really important that you know, in my opinion, if I was selling a firm, I would want an advisor, a broker, whatever you want to call it who whose success was tied to my success. So not only do we take half of our fee from each party, david we take, we take our fee pro rata as the seller is being exited. So unless the seller receives their maximum earn out, we don't get our payment. Dave: I see Interesting, so it also motivates you to hang around after the transaction closes. Geoff: Yes, sir, we are, and there's no consulting fee associated with that. That's part of you know. We really look at ourselves as advisors and we try to put ourselves in the shoes of you accountants, who you know. Everybody wants a slice of the pie, right? You guys get hit up by bankers, by lawyers, by financial advisors, by consultants, because you've got great relationships with your clients. So I guess it's our way of saying you know, we don't want to treat you like everybody else does. We want to be, you know, very motivated by your success rather than you know just what you can give to us. Dave: That makes sense. Wow, I've got so many follow-up questions, so one was I was curious about. You know, when I came into the profession the normal rule of thumb was when it came to profits they called it the one-third, one-third, one-third model that you've probably heard of, where a third of the revenue goes to pay the staff to have the work done, a third goes to pay overhead and a third goes to profit. And my friends that I have in public accounting, my sense is that for a lot of firms that's drifted down from a 33% EBITDA to more like 25%. And then the other thing was it was a third, a third, a third, and then an average firm was worth one times revenues or three times EBITDA. I mean, it was just nice, easy rule of thumb. So you've answered my first question that apparently some of the folks I know that are partners in CPA firms maybe they're not in the top quintile in performance by their peer group, if you know of firms that are approaching 40% EBITDA margins. So that's the first thing. And then the second is what are the multiples then? Typically, what are the ranges, either on an EBITDA or gross revenue? Geoff: So I'm going to try to answer the question in a gigantic circle that adds the most value to your network Perfect, perfect. Dave: I like it when guests take my clumsy question and go ahead and answer the question I meant to ask. Not at all. No, it's all right, so go ahead. Geoff: Thank you. So the first thing is, if you are planning to sell your firm in the next decade and a lot of people won't like what I'm about to say, but it is the truth the very first thing that you should do right now, today, is you should start thinking about making your firm as remote as possible. Now, what do I mean by that? I don't mean you have to take all your in-office employees and let them work remotely. What I really mean is about your client's behavior. If you have clients who are coming in to meet with you at your office, if you have clients that are physically dropping off paperwork unless they are clients that are very niche and very high value to your firm, which is a strong exception to the rule which I am sharing you really should be working towards training your clients into the behavior where they are remote, where they do not need to see you. If they're older and they don't like the computer and they want to mail you all their documents, that's better than them coming into the office to drop it off. Best of all is if they're using a portal. A Zoom meeting, as David and I were saying at the beginning of this call, can go a long way, especially if you're working with an $800 1040, right, if you've got a $10,000 1040, or if you've got something, you've got a lot of K-1s, or you have complex audit work or you have serious CFO work that you do for clients. There's exceptions to this rule, but understand that buyers, if they are not in your backyard, are very seldom going to be interested in purchasing a firm which, from a client perspective, involves a lot of physical collateral. So if you're looking at a sale in the future, the biggest thing that you can do to help yourself down the road is starting to train your clients on remote behavior. The more remote client behavior you have, the more salient your firm is, even if you have a 25 or a 20 or a 15% EBITDA. Dave: So that's the first thing. I like it, and it makes so much sense I can understand it. Yeah, so it makes all the sense in the world, okay. So you're saying, even if you sacrificed EBITDA to get to that point. In the long run, it'll still be more valuable. A 15% EBITDA, totally remote firm is likely more valuable than a 25% EBITDA all in person. The employees have to come in the office, the clients have to come into the office. Is that what I'm hearing you say? Geoff: More valuable? Yes, but probably not for the reason you think. The firm that's 25% in EBITDA and 100% in office and its culture is probably going to be valued at zero. It's probably not going to be saleable. You know, unless you're talking about you know, if your firm is $6 million, a million, five of that is EBITDA and it's split between two partners who are taking home $750,000 a year including ad backs and the rest of the staff and the real estate and the technology makes up the four and a half million in spend. I could sell that firm. But if you're saying a $25 million firm is one guy who's running a million dollar book of business and he's taken home 250 a year including everything and his practices. You know, you know he's kind of a slave to his practice. Dave: Yeah, that's not worth anything. Geoff: I can't. I'm going to have a really hard time selling that to anybody. Now, that guy that I just mentioned, that guy that I just mentioned his dream is usually to have me hire someone who wants to sit in his chair. But understand this Number one there are very few talented, young, hungry people in accounting period, let alone somebody who has that profile and wants to inherit your mess. Very politely, I say that honestly, so you know these are things that we can talk about, you know, but I'll always be honest. I never want to hurt anybody's feelings, but I don't want to waste your time either. Dave: Yeah, that's, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So about the only way that practice is really sellable is if he happens to know a guy in town who has a similar type practice that's maybe a little bigger, that you know, that happens to be, like down the street, similar enough clientele and they basically will take the practice off his hands, you know, make him a partner for a couple years in their firm, as he kind of does his phase out. Short of that there's not even really an exit, is there? Geoff: It's possible. It is possible, but I would say less than a 10% chance and that deal is mostly going to happen. I would say 99% of the 10% of the time that deal happens, david, it happens because the buyer and the seller have a relationship. They're golf buddies, they're cigar buddies, they're drink buddies, their wives are friends the wife being a friend is probably the most powerful, because the deal from the buy side doesn't make sense. If I have a, say, $3 million firm with similar clients but I have enough emotional capacity that I can absorb another million dollars in business, if I'm talking to me right, I'm not going to advise that person to take the practice which is a million dollars of chaos. I'm going to advise that person to let me start helping them develop a remote line of their business and to take something which is going to be massively streamlined. Now let's talk for just a minute about overseas. Everybody is terrified of the overseas conversation when it comes to delivery, especially if you're in a tax business because you have to inform clients that someone out of country will be working on your return. There's a tremendous amount of fear about it. David, in my experience, clients who make the transition lose less than 10% of their clients and the 10% or less of their clients that they use, that they lose are clients who are the 80% of their headache anyway. Now there's a major exception to this rule in my professional opinion, which is you do not outsource work which is complex or high value. If it's over a $1,000, 1040, you don't outsource it. If it's something that's more complex accounting work than simple bookkeeping, you don't outsource it. But if it's high volume, low value work, your valuable domestic people in this talent shortage market should not be working on high volume compliance work in any way, shape or form. Those people should be retrained to be doing management of firms in, let's say, india, for example, to review the work that they do before it goes out the door. It can be done in environments that are equally secure as to here. That's objectively true. I know it scares everybody, but it's true. And the other thing is that it equips a firm to be looking at growth rather than just managing all of the chaos that's happening around them. So a major piece of what I just say, for example, would advise that $3 million firm to do instead of buying the $1 million firm, is if you start to rethink the way that your operating model is conducted, your M&A prospects become much more dynamic. You have more internal capacity. You have the ability to acquire firms that are 100% remote. Today already I can't tell you how many $500,000, a million dollar fully remote firms are on the market in specific niches. And these aren't all people who are retiring. These are some people who don't want to do admin work, hiring and firing. They just want to sell business and serve clients all day. So they're looking to join up with another firm. And then the other thing is if that 3 million firm takes my advice, then he can actually acquire the million dollar book of business where everything's chaotic but it's still essential. Then a part of that acquisition is going to be well, mr $1 million firm, you have to now start training your clients into this behavior anyway, because nobody who I can get my hands on is going to have continuity in the in-person model for their low value clients. It just doesn't make sense. You're actually disrespecting yourself by doing it. You could talk all day about wanting to have a fantastic culture and provide a really warm and fuzzy feeling for your clients, but if you look at your balance sheet excuse me and your P&L, and you see you've got EBITDA. That is not where you want it to be. You shouldn't be sacrificing your well-being for culture, right? Dave: There's a balancing act here and I think we need to be realists about it that is so interesting how well you understand the situation going on in these firms, even though you yourself are not a CPA and, I'm guessing, never spent a day working in a CPA firm. Geoff: I couldn't do it. I couldn't do my simple 1040 to save my life, David. Dave: Understood, understood. So, man, we have really covered a lot. You'd mentioned the final piece, the consulting piece, that you may have an example of that, sure. Geoff: So let's see, I'll tell you. This is a great example. I'll tell you about someone who decided not to work with me recently, saltingside. So this is a lovely woman in a rural part of the country. She runs about a $500,000 firm about a $500,000 firm. And, by the way, my clients predominantly range in size between as low as 100,000 in gross revenue, david, and up to about 10 to 15 million. I have relationships with firms larger than that certainly many of them, but because it's so hard to have advisory level influence at those larger firms, they just see me as totally transactional, which right, making money, but it's not what gets me out of bed every day. So I like the smaller firms because we can have more impact there. Dave: Yeah, I understand. Geoff: So this woman runs a half a million dollar firm and she's in a tremendous amount of debt and the reason that she's in so much debt is because she can't find talent. That she's in so much debt is because she can't find talent. She doesn't like the outsourcing model and the talent that she has found, david has been people who you know. She'll hire them, she'll train them. Maybe they have some experience, maybe they don't, but then she ends up spending more time redoing their work than if she had just done the work herself to begin with. And this cyclical thing which is happening, where she places trust and hope in people and then gets burned, has manifested in her financial situation and she's got a load of debt. It's not insurmountable debt, but if I was to help her, it would take some significant movements on her part. Now her client roster is perfect for implementing this overseas model that we've talked about. She has about a quarter of her practice is high value and three quarters of her practice is really volume. If we look at this with just business lenses on for a second doesn't mean she can't provide the clients with an excellent experience. And Christmas cards, have a holiday party, you know. A summer bash, you know, be in the community with them. But when it comes to the workflow of, you know, 30 to 50 meetings a week this woman is doing in office during tax season, she can't get any of her work done because her clients are explaining the documents that they bring into her that she could be done with in 20 minutes. So what I said to her is what I will do in a consulting capacity is we're going to get into your firm and we're going to dissect everything. How is everything happening now? Where do we want to be from a financial aspect, and how can we get there without alienating the culture of your company? Because, you know, especially in rural geographies, you guys, you actually care about people, which is a lost art in this world. I don't want to. You know, I'm not trying to be soulless about this. I want to respect you and enable you to treat your clients well without it being at your expense. That's the goal here. And at the end of the day, she took the weekend. She spoke to her husband. She said this is a little bit too dramatic for me. I'm, admittedly, a little bit too afraid to do this. I appreciate your candor, but I'm going to have to figure out another way, and I said you know that's fine and I wish you all the best. I'm so glad, david, that we got to that outcome quickly, because where a lot of people would have taken her money or would have led her down a rosy road, I was very honest with her and I think I was understanding as well, but this woman needs someone to be truthful with her. She doesn't need more people to smoke and it is sad. Dave: I mean, it's a really sad story, because if her clients understood how hard she worked and she not only is not making money, she works hard and she's going backwards financially they would like offer to rally around her Right Fees, right, they would, right, they would. So that's the really, and she's stuck. There's really no hope to get out. She's going to probably just work until she has a health issue and that's yeah. That's a sad story. Geoff: And here's and here, you know, let's look at it from the and this is the last thing I'll say here If we look at it from the client's perspective for just a second, you know all of us. I talked to so many accountants who don't like the overseas model, even for their high volume work, and I know I'm talking a lot about volume. It's a very different conversation on the niche side that maybe we'll talk about another day. But just to conclude, the irony is that there are very few firms, when this woman does eventually stop working hopefully by her choice and not because she got sick who will take and now manage these clients at anywhere near I mean even double the fee that this woman is charging. The regional firms are like four or five times this woman's rate is their minimum. Yeah, maybe three times, if you know you'd be told, but you know three times is a minimum. So the irony is this woman's doing right by people there's, but there's nobody else locally who can perform in the same way she can. There's. She has, like one competitor within like a 50 mile, one other accounting firm within a 50 mile radius of where she is. Wow, it's a lot of people, you know, I mean it, where she is? Wow, it's a lot of people, you know, I mean, it's not like a Metro, but it's a lot of people need accounting. So who are all these people going to be serviced by? At the end of the day, h and R block tax, or, you know, it might not be what they were all using. We're all using either AI or overseas workers to have it done anyway and if this woman was doing the right thing, david, where you know, in my opinion, where she was she could provide them essentially with the same service she's providing them now, rather than having them talk to someone over there. They're talking to her, they're interfacing with her, they're interfacing with her managed operation, but she's using this resource, and I lied. I will say one more thing. I am a red-blooded American, I believe in this country. I have very dear people in my life who fought for this country. I am not a veteran. I wish I actually would have rather gone into the military than do college. If I could do it again, I would do it. That way, I would have learned more about the world, which would have benefited me in my 20s. Dave: Sure. Geoff: But I believe that what made this country great in the 50s and 60s and 70s in the wake of World War II was the American spirit and this desire for the layman to move from the lower class into the middle class. It's what gave us all of our gusto as the economy became the strongest in the world. Now, you know, we have a very different environment, but that human spirit is not lost. India is now the fastest growing economy in the world and by no means am I saying I don't want, you know, the United States to remain the main player. I do, I'm, you know, number one USA. But we have to be realists and there's not talent, we have no talent here. So we, you know, anyway, that's my opinion on the topic. Dave: No, that is really good. I cannot believe how the time has flown by. I have just two rapid questions, so give me the the characteristics of a perfect client for you. And I'm going to kind of force you to like really narrow, like you can only pick one. And the reason this matters is because a week from now, when I forget a lot of the details of our conversation, give me the one thing to remember the pain point, because we have hundreds of clients and they all have a CPA firm that we work with. So I know hundreds of CPA firms and most, most of them are in that you know five to $25 million size, so kind of in your sweet spot. So paint a picture for the person who you can best help and would most like to help. Geoff: So I have a prospect. Who's my probably my favorite prospect. He does about 6 million in revenue. He wants to get to 30 million. He's 45 years old. He wants to sell at 60. So the next 10 years his growth plan is 6 million to 30 million. And then he's going to ride the bus for five years. He wants to become an absentee owner, david. He wants to sit on a beach and run the firm from his cell phone and maybe a laptop for an hour or two a day and drink his margaritas and hang out with his family. And his practice is. He has a couple of key niches and he also does some volume work. So him and I are working together in a consulting capacity. We will be in short order. We have a great rapport and, in addition to the consulting work, I'm going to be doing transactional work for him. So hiring people fully remote, domestically, to help with some of these niche areas of growth, who will start off often as managers and ultimately become partners overseeing departments. And we validate that by hiring people, like I talked about with the first example, who have very strong character and are very self-motivated, with a niche pedigree from a larger firm where they weren't treated well, there are people who exist there. You know they're in the single digit percentile, but that's what we specialize in recruiting, finding those people. We'll be doing a strategic M&A for him. We'll be implementing overseas resourcing for him. So that's a client where I get to throw everything that I offer and the kitchen sink at him and it adds value. And the biggest piece of it is that he has one partner who's more of a service partner, less of a strategist and senior partner strategist and senior partner, even though they're 50-50 partners in the firm. He's really you know to hear him talk about it and I believe him, based on our relationship, he's really the driver of the firm and its growth. The biggest thing of all in that situation is our relationship. We have mutual trust for each other because in a retainer capacity, I'm not going to be taking a lot of money from him. You know, my success is his success and that's on recruiting, that's on M&A, that's on growth, top line and bottom line. And then you know I'm incentivized, of course, because 10 years from now, or 10 to 50, I'm going to sell his firm, right, right, I'm going to make millions of dollars selling this firm that I've helped him to grow. Dave: So I love it. I've helped him to grow, so I love it. He sounds like a great client. So, if I could distill what I think the elements are, it's a person, an ambitious person in the middle part of their career who wants to grow both personally and economically and wants you as their key partner over the next 15 years to accomplish that. Geoff: One of them. I mean I'm you know I'm not Jesus Christ David, but I appreciate the you know to be trusted enough to be listened to as one of the people who they take seriously. That's correct, yeah that is awesome. Dave: Well, as we wrap up, Geoff, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I had? Geoff: No, this has really been a pleasure, you know, getting to talk about myself for a minute, so thank you for the opportunity. Dave: My pleasure. If people want to learn more, where should they go? Where are you going to send them to LinkedIn your website. Geoff: Both is fine, so website is whitetigerconnections.com. Geoff Bruskin, or you can find us at White Tiger Connections on LinkedIn too. Dave: Perfect. Well, Geoff this has really been fun. I really am excited about the stuff you're doing, and I think there are some synergies between our practices that I want to continue to explore in the future. So thanks for taking time, and I hope you have a great day. Geoff: Thank, you, you too, and to your listeners, bye-bye.

Invités : Dave Noël, historien et journaliste au Devoir et Félix Mathieu, professeur en science politique à l'Université de Winnipeg En juin 1774 (il y a 250 ans), le Parlement britannique dotait le Québec d'une première constitution reconnaissant le droit civil français et le libre exercice de la religion catholique. Les Britanniques l'ont-ils fait par magnanimité? On tente de répondre à la question, et on expose les multiples implications de l'l'Acte de Québec avec l'historien et journaliste aux Devoir Dave Noël et le politologue Félix Mathieu.Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with estate planning expert Jonathon Morrison. Listen in as he shares strategic guidance for business owners worth $10+ million on safeguarding wealth in the changing tax landscape. With the looming December 2025 deadline, Jonathon explains trust structures and exemptions that can freeze business value to minimize estate taxes. From revenue crunching to complex legislation, his expertise cuts through financial jargon. For those growing rapidly or concerned about legacy, this conversation provides nuanced counsel on leveraging sophisticated legal mechanisms.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jonathon Morrison, an estate planning expert, discusses strategies for business owners to preserve their wealth and protect it from potential estate tax changes expected by December 31st, 2025. We examine the importance of proactive estate planning for business owners, especially those with assets ranging from $10 to $100 million, to minimize estate tax implications. Jonathon emphasizes the benefits of sophisticated trust structures that can 'freeze' a business's value for tax purposes while providing robust defense against unforeseen events. The conversation covers the urgency for business owners to engage in estate planning before the anticipated decrease in estate tax exemptions in 2026. We explore how transferring business ownership into special trusts can help business owners maintain control of their assets while reducing their taxable estate. A case study is presented, demonstrating how strategic valuation discounts and transferring minority interest to a gift trust can result in significant estate tax savings. Jonathon outlines his unique business model, which includes direct engagement with clients, flat fee structures, and comprehensive annual reviews, to provide personalized estate planning services. The episode touches on the financial benefits of estate planning, such as savings on estate taxes and protection of inheritances from creditors, lawsuits, and divorce. During the podcast, Jonathon shares his personal background, including his passion for car collecting and his roots in Arizona. We delve into the complexities of funding designs for gift trusts, stressing the importance of optimizing both the trust structure and the funding strategy for maximum effectiveness. Contact Details Email (jmorrison@frgalaw.com) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathonmorrison/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Frazer Ryan Goldberg and Arnold LLP GUEST Jonathon MorrisonAbout Jonathon TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hello, my name is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Jonathon Morrison, a senior partner at the law firm of Fraser Ryan Goldberg in Arnold. Jonathon is a highly specialized estate planning attorney for people with large estates, Jonathon has a unique approach and covers a variety of different strategies. I think the biggest takeaway is that if you believe in hyper-focused specialists and you own a privately held business, then Jonathon is probably the guy for you. We covered again a number of different strategies and the urgency of December 31st 2025, why that's so significant for estate tax planning and he also encouraged everybody to address this year rather than waiting until next year. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Jonathon, welcome to the podcast. Jonathon: Thank you, David. Thanks for having me. Where are you? Dave: connecting from today. Jonathon: I'm down here in Scottsdale, arizona. I'm a senior partner with Frazier, ryan, goldberg and Arnold. We're the largest trust and estate firm in Arizona. I'm a senior partner focusing on advanced estate planning for large, complex estates. Dave: Awesome. So I know you went to Arizona undergrad. Are you from Arizona? Jonathon: Yeah, I grew up here, all 18 years of my life in the same house. I've got a nice-. Dave: You're like the only one. You're the only that's right, a lot of yeah. Jonathon: Yeah, so I went to U of A studied finance accounting, and then I went up to law school in San Francisco. I lived in the heart of the city for about 11 years and met my wife, and then we came back to raise kids here in 2015. So I've got a six-year-old Jack and a three-year-old Rose. Dave: That's awesome, and I love Scottsdale. I go there every January for the Barrett-Jackson auctions. I always enjoy being there. Jonathon: Well, you probably saw my bio I am a car enthusiast, collector, track driver. Oh, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that. I know cars are like kids, you can't really have a favorite. But if you did have a favorite, what's your favorite? Over the years I've had a lot of cars, but I primarily drive and collect bmws, porsches and ferraris. Dave: Okay, yeah do you have a 2002? Jonathon: no, I don't have a classic 2002, mostly modern stuff. Okay, all the modern sort of m2s, m3s. I usually I only have about three or four cars at a time, unlike a lot of guys, but I swap them every six, twelve months I'm changing them in and out understood, so I drove a tesla model s plaid three years ago and my enthusiasm for gasoline engine just kind of went away. Dave: I always said I was brand agnostic and powertrain agnostic. So at one point I had the Tesla Model S Plaid, I had a Camaro ZL1 convertible six speed and I had a Jeep diesel Grand Cherokee which I had a special order to get the three liter diesel. So I'm like three brands, three propulsion types, but I'm down to actually one vehicle for the first time in a long time, a Rivian R1S, which is by far the best vehicle I've ever owned. My biggest concern with them is just whether they're going to be in business in another year or not. Jonathon: Right, right. It's like Fisker they keep coming in and out and I just saw news today they're not doing well. Yeah, I've never driven the Plaid, although my one of my Ferraris is faster than that Plaid, believe it or not? Oh wow. Dave: That's great. Well, we'll have to talk about it more and I'll be sure to look you up next January on Scottsdale, please do so. We're going to talk about estate planning and I know enough to be dangerous. My listeners and clients are privately held business owners with enterprise values between probably $10 and $100 million. The business represents the majority of their net worth and I understand there's some things going on that have some deadlines that create some urgency, so why don't we get into it? So just start wherever you want to. Jonathon: Sure, yeah. So those clients are really my clients, mid-market business owners for the most part. My practice, again, we call it advanced estate planning. What that means is the net worth, including business real estate, is high enough to warrant planning beyond just the will and living trust, powers of attorney, the core estate documents that everybody needs. Once you get to a certain wealth level or income level, then you need to start focusing on advanced planning, which encompasses we joke all the acronym planning, all of those acronyms you hear about in the estate and gift world. So for mid-market business owners, right now generally you're looking at $10 million minimum enterprise value. That warrants a good look at estate planning. We have the urgency at this point it's not as urgent quite yet which is the time to catch us because there's a limited number of Jonathon Morrisons in any state other than, you know, california I practiced up in Silicon Valley for about a decade or Manhattan you know there's about 50 of us, but in most of the smaller any other state there's maybe five, maybe that really you know, do this day in and day out. It's like a heart surgery. I've done this over 500 times transactions, design, implementation, and you've got to have at least 200, 250 reps before you really know what you're doing, mastering the vehicles themselves and then being able to distill it and communicate it to clients and be able to then get it done very quickly without you know. Business owners they hate this stuff. This is complex, it's annoying. They don't want to talk about death and taxes. They want us to operate their business. So I've done a very unique model that we can get into a little bit. I wanted to focus on the urgency, but a very unique model that's really custom tailored for busy business owners that need to get this done quickly, with high quality and low stress. But the urgency back to the urgency. So I think most of your listeners probably know that the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the Trump tax reform, is going to expire or sunset as of January 1st 2026. Dave: Okay, Less than two years. Jonathon: Yeah, yeah. So you know a year and nine months and as part of that, in the estate planning world, really the biggest change, perhaps the only significant change, is the reduction in the federal gift and estate tax exemptions. Okay, what are those? Well, right now there are all-time highs, okay, there are all-time highs, okay. Right now you can gift during life or at death up to $13.5 million if you're single, without any gift or estate tax. Or if you're married, you can give to about $27.2 during life or at death, and above that, if you go over that, there's a 40% gift tax. If you gift during life or at death, a 40% inheritance tax paid by your children, and so that exemption amount is scheduled to be cut in half on January 1st 2026. We don't know quite yet the number. It's probably going to be somewhere around 7 million for a single and 14 million for a married couple. So significant amount less that you can gift to individuals children, grandchildren, anybody else in 2026, unless you lock in that exemption before then. So upon so. Let me just interject one second. Dave: So just understanding numbers that I do. If you consider a population one, everybody within a state over 27 million is group one and group two is everybody between 13 and 27 million of a state size. I'm guessing that group two is probably way larger than group one, even though on absolute dollars there's folks from 26 million all the way to billions. But I'm guessing is that assumption correct that a multiple of people who needed to worry about exceeding the exemption, those number of people, are now being multiplied. Is that right? Jonathon: Yeah, once exemptions go down. You've got a lot of people now that have to worry about estate taxes. So in 2026, there's going to be a lot more people that need my services. But between now and 26, it's really. You know, if I had to pick a number, it's somebody that either already has about 10, $15 million or more, because you're doubling every 10 years, assuming the rule of 72. Yep, those people need to look at this planning. But, more importantly perhaps, are a lot of your listeners. These are business owners and their businesses are on fire. They're just going out there. Ebit is jumping every year. Multiples might be getting higher and so between now and their death they might be in their 40s, 50s, 60s. They got a long life expectancy. They're likely going to have a lot of them over $100 million net worth at death. That's when you have to measure this tax. You file a federal estate tax return within nine months after death and the government wants valuations and they want to see what you're worth and there's a 40% tax imposed at that time and that's due within nine months. There's a huge check that gets written. The good news is a Harvard professor famously said the federal estate tax is optional as long as you plan for it. I don't care what you're worth If you've got 20, maybe 30 years to live, unless you're like over a half billion dollars of net worth. I can usually wipe out the federal estate tax through proactive planning and I've got, like I said, a finance and accounting background. I've got financial models that I run free of charge all up front to show you Like I just did one for a $100 million business owner and it showed that he had about 20 million of other assets. But it showed and he was 55, it showed that if he was willing to transfer 60% of his business into the special kind of trust that we were going to wipe out his $200 million projected estate tax in 30 years it was going to go to zero and he had totally stabilized cash flow and liquidity between now and year 30. So the name of the game is to figure out how much do we need to transfer, and you got to run financial models. Most attorneys don't do that, but for a business owner there's so much that we can do because we can value the business at less attractive values at the time of gift number one. So valuations in the tax code say the valuation firm has to look at it from a discounted cashflow perspective, not a strategic buyer perspective. I just had a $600 million company that just sold a year ago. We got a value to $80 million because it wasn't valued from a strategic buyer standpoint. So if you come to me and you're 80 and you've got $100 million of cash, it's a lot harder to wipe out the estate tax versus a business owner that's got a EBIT of $5, $10 million. But they're in their 50s. We can transfer some of that business out and rely on a number of other mechanisms to wipe out that estate tax and get asset protection while they're living Very easily. They keep total control over their estate if you do it right and the business so I'm intrigued. Tell me more do it right and the business. So I'm intrigued, tell me more. Yeah, I'll tell you the exemptions going away when you run the financial models out 30 or 40 years for a lot of your business owner clients. Okay, there's, the exemption is prompting a lot of this planning and I'll explain one of the reason. But the exemptions are going down. It's use it or lose it. Okay. So let's say you've got a nice boring balance sheet $50 million stocks and bonds. Okay, single guy, you guys should definitely gift his $13.6 million exemption before 2026. We'll talk about you know, just gift it to kids. I've got a special vehicle that's done over 200 of these without an audit, making the cover of the state national state planning journal in May. So you've got a trust receptacle. If you do it right, that client could gift $13 million and keep total control and access while they're living. Again, if you know what you're doing and that irrevocable trust is designed from the outset correctly, which a lot of them aren't, I call that the optimized gift trust. So, again, that's a boring $50 million cash, stocks, bonds. So, business owners, we got the exemptions going away. That's prompting some of this. Here's the more important impetuses for reasons to act. Number one, the business keeps going up in value. We want to freeze that appreciation on that business, gift it out of the estate. So all that post-gift appreciation on the business when they sell, all of that is soaked up off balance sheet. You don't your clients, my clients are too wealthy and we don't want them getting any wealthier because there was creditor and lawsuit exposure while they're living and then at death the government takes the estate tax. So the sooner we can get a client before the business takes off, transfer some or all of that business to that special type of optimized gift trust. Get them all the control, but start building wealth off balance sheet. Rockefeller famously said you want to own nothing but control everything. If you do it right, they won't own that business anymore but they can control and access that gift trust in so many different ways. The IRS has lost so many cases in the last several decades. That allows us to pack those optimized gift trusts with so many cases in the last several decades. That allows us to pack those optimized gift trusts with so many controls. So again, number one urgency is really the fact that a lot of business owners are going to continue to grow their business and we want to shelter it. The second major reason is we have a lot of legislative risk right now. I mentioned how over the last 40, 50 years, the IRS has pretty much been on the losing end of all the cases in estate and gift. In the old days you couldn't pack that much control in these gift trusts. The IRS has lost cases or given up or acquiesced in rulings that now, if you do it right, these gift trusts that you put in your business or other assets into, there's pretty much nothing we can't. It's technically irrevocable if you don't own it anymore. But if you do it right, like you'll see in my paper, my materials for the gift trust, they have so much control In 2021, they almost patched it. Remember that building back better bill yeah. A lot of its owners were worried about. While there was a little piece nobody was paying attention to except for us in the state and gift tax eight pages it would have killed all of these flexible trusts that we use. Any quote, grant or trust would have been abolished unless you got it funded before Biden signed it into law. So I did 160 deals, $3 billion of gifts, those 18 month period. It didn't pass because remember there were two senators, manchin and Sinema, that didn't vote for it but with and this is covered in my paper in the journal they could. There's always rumors they could take another stab at trying to kill off Grand Tour Trusts. We also have interest rates that could keep going up. A lot of what we do leverages those interest rates. So there's a lot of headwinds in the near future, next few years perhaps. And the lowered exemptions this is sort of the golden age of estate planning. That's kind of fleeting because they're trying to kill off the trust. Exemptions are going down, interest rates are going up. If you're a business owner, this is the time to act. If you haven't already, okay. Dave: Yeah, because I'm assuming, since you're talking about valuations being discounted cashflow, that these higher interest rates are creating bigger discounts. Jonathon: That's part of it, I mean the major reason for interest rates being relevant is you can gift assets to these types of trusts. But you're limited by that exemption $13 million. There's another way you can actually get up to 10 times that amount in these trusts and that's the so-called sale to a defective grantor trust. What does that mean? It means I put $13 million of cash in this trust. I can then actually transfer another 130 million 10 times in exchange for a note back to me. Okay, that note. The IRS requires a minimum interest rate pretty much tracks the 10-year treasury. So the higher the interest rate, the more this trust is feeding back into your name, your taxable estate. So we want low interest rates, we want to be able to-. I see, a couple of years ago we were lending so much money at the 1% interest only 30 year fixed Right Gift trust is arbitraging and we froze that client's estate at that note value with 1%. So there's other strategies like GRATS and CLATS that are interest rate dependent. But bottom line it's one headwind is. So why don't we talk a little bit? So we talked about sort of the urgencies, business value going up. These cool trusts that we've been using for decades might be gone soon. If you don't get it done, you'd be great to put it in under everything we've ever seen. So this is the time to act. Now let's talk about the importance of that gift trust being flexible. Okay, I developed this thing in 2020. I call it I just I call it an optimized gift trust. Okay, it's. If you know any of my gift trusts and many of your podcast listeners, I've probably heard of idgits or generation skipping trusts or dynasty trusts or slats, all these things. All those things basically mean is, hey, they're features of a gift trust that give you either tax benefits or retained control. So what if you create a gift trust and you just put all those things into one? I call it a hybrid. It's nothing new. If you go to Manhattan or Silicon Valley, they're not going to call an optimized gift trust. It's just how we do it there. But you go to smaller markets like where I live, phoenix or it isn't even a small market but there's attorneys that aren't just getting. They're just not getting enough repetitions over the years. So these gift trusts a lot of the ones I review locally, for example just don't have the maximum strengths and controls that your business owner client can have if they're gifting. And it's a big deal because if you run the financial model, the majority of wealth is going to be in these gift trusts. If they're not done from the outset, you might never be able to get that money back or change the beneficiaries or access it or do many, lots of different things. And I clean up bad, irrevocable gift trusts all the time. So in 2020, I developed this thing called the Optimized Gift Trust. Three page in out overview. I got a seven page frequently asked questions. I try to productize things. I've done this 500 times. I try to take all this complexity and put it into a nice, easy to go package for business owners that are way too busy, and so this gift trust has all the bells and whistles and I mentioned. I was just asked by the National Estate Planning Journal, the top journal in my field. I made the cover back in 2020 with a different product. This one, in May 2024, in a couple of months will be on the cover, the full legal citations. It was peer reviewed, everything. There wasn't a single change. So it all checks out, never been audited. It's audit defensible as well. We've got an army of lawyers here at this firm, about three or four of them that are former IRS trial attorneys that can defend it. But my point is is these business owners need to make transfers here soon and you better darn have your gift trust within that 60 page document. It's irrevocable, meaning you can't change it, the terms of that trust, once it's done, and so if it's not optimized from the outset, that can be a big problem. So, yeah, you really want a flexible, accessible trust. If you do it right, the business owner, literally there's no downside. We can get it back in four or five different access points make changes, especially if they're married. You can include slot powers, spousal life access, trust powers which give the marital unit even more control. So that's the again number one, the urgency to act, and the number two, making sure you've got a strong gift trust to receive that gift and make changes down the road. Dave: Okay, yeah, that sounds that makes a lot of sense. So could you give us maybe a case study example, like anonymously. Sure, you know just to kind of give some color to some of this yeah, sure. Jonathon: So I mentioned I have a unique process and as part of that, what I do is I prepare. I built out this financial model. Okay, if you go to any of the top I mean, I haven't found a bank yet that I really like their financial model. Even the top banks in the world. They've got these financial models that will illustrate what it looks like to gift into these gift trusts and they'll run it out 30 years and it'll show you cash flows and tax savings. But all the models I've reviewed are really developed by financial people, not estate and gift attorneys like me. So about 10 years ago I developed this bespoke model. It's Excel-based and we can input all you know. I basically have it custom tailored to what I like to do. So I put in spending, you know assets, asset performance, business assumptions, how long you're going to live all of these things and you put in. Really, it's determined. The goal of this is to output for me. How much does my client need to gift into this gift trust to cause it so that they I joke die poor? We want them burying life. If you get sued, you don't own it anymore. That objective, the competing objective, is we don't want them to put too much in the gift trust, because the IRS doesn't like if you're poking and prodding and grabbing the assets out of there. Ideally they'll never need to touch it. Okay, we've got all these access points that they need to get back in emergency Great, but I want to make sure that they haven't given it away too much. They've still got plenty of liquidity, stabilized cash net of expenses, net of taxes, net of spending over here. So that's the output. So you wanted a case study. You wanted a case study so I just did one of the sample model. That's client business owner. He's got about $5 million of liquid assets, cash stocks, bonds. He's got $10 million of investment, real estate. He's got a $5 million home. So you know 20, 25 million, but the bulk of his net worth is in the business. It doesn't have to be that way. A lot of business owners have a lot less. But the assumption was it was you could sell the business to a strategic for $100 million in two years. We went and got a valuation, looked at the company from the worst possible lens defensively low top valuation firm, looked at EBITDA, looked at the markets and also applied minority interest valuation discounts. So a lot of times we're gifting minority interest in the company to the gift trust. You get further discounts Bottom line. It's not atypical for a $100 million company to be valued at maybe $20 million when all the discounts are applied. Okay enterprise discount, maybe down to 40, and then maybe another 40, 50% discount on that for minority interest. So we put all this in the model. He's spending 750 grand a year and then you've got inflation adjustments and everything. But the model showed that if he gifted 60% of the shares in his company to this special gift trust, that over the next 30 years, rather than his estate just growing, I think he has about $500 million in 30 years on these assumptions, causing a $200 million inheritance tax at death 40% of 500. By gifting that 60% interest we froze his estate tax. I think about $15 million. So he always had about $50 million in his hands. But all but because he had that sweet spot, all of that future value, even when the business is sold and reinvested, we froze his net worth at about 50 over here and effectively, because of all the thing that's going on, the gift trust was worth $450 million at death. That gift trust is not only exempt from 40% of state tax at his death but it's generation skipping, meaning it's totally out of, permanently out of the federal 40% gift inheritance tax for generations. In Arizona we got 500 years Depends on which state you live in or you set it up but we wiped out $200 million state tax and it made sure he had plenty of money to spend. Totally accessible gift trust if he ever needed to access it Controlled the business units that he gifted away. We can still make changes to beneficiaries or give it all to charity or some of the charity. Down the road he could borrow from the gift trust all sorts of stuff. His wife could take distributions out, so that's a great. I mean this is a very common example of the power that state attorneys that know what they're doing can do for a business owner for relatively small fees very small fees compared to that type of savings. Dave: Sure, and I presume that's where the word optimized comes in, because you're talking about that modeling and you're kind of trying to find that sweet spot of him having enough cash flow, enough control, right? Is that kind of what the optimization means? Jonathon: You hit it on the head. There's two optimizations okay. The first is making sure that gift trust has optimized his retain and control right. We've given as much as the irs case law allows with minimal risk. We're not going over the edge and there's a ton of stuff we can pack in there. So if he needs to do anything with the gift trust, we've got that optimized. And then the second thing is making sure exactly that the transfer into trust I call it the funding design, how it's transferred. Is it a gift? Is it a sale? For a note back, are we loaning additional assets? Modeling that out so that the funding design is optimized? I have to put a disclaimer in here. I'd say 95% of trusts and designs that I review probably less than that are totally optimized. There's a lot of attorneys out there that are going to seminars. They're reading about certain gift trusts, especially SLATs, spousal Life Access Trusts and they think they can get on their computer and go on some document program and start pushing buttons and making it work. This is dangerous. I didn't know what I was doing until probably about 200 transactions. I was at the top firm in Silicon Valley took public Apple, google, facebook, amazon, tesla and I was training for 10 hard years before I knew what I was doing. So making sure that your gift trust is prepared by somebody that specializes in the field has done it many times, and not just the trust being done right. Maybe you can get those buttons right if you're pushing them. The funding design is much more complex and I don't know many attorneys that can the no numbers backwards and forwards. They usually rely on the financial advisor usually doesn't really know how to apply their financial modeling to estate planning. It's just, it's a concern. So, anyways, that's enough of that disclaimer. But yeah, you got to optimize the trust and the funding design, which is my journal article 15 pages, goes into everything I'm talking about in detail. Dave: No, thank you very much. That is very helpful and we'll want to link some of that information that I'll get from you after we finish recording. Jonathon: Excellent, yeah, happy to. I'll share the overview. Frequently asked questions and I'm not sure if I can share that journal article. It's in the final peer reviewed draft but once that comes out, I'm bulk of their wealth is in the business. Dave: Now what about? So is it safe to assume that, say, somebody has a? They have a business that's worth $5 million. They have another $3 or $4 million outside the business. They don't anticipate huge growth in the business. Do they have a need for this planning? Jonathon: Yeah, I think I mean. Again, it depends on what the value of the business If you pass away, the IRS is going to require a valuation of that company within nine months If you're over the exemption amount again in a couple of years. Here you know, exemption is $7 million for single, $14 for married. So yeah, I think if the value of the company and all the assets are $10 million or above, I think it's at least worth a conversation. There's a different design for a $15 million contract individual or couple than 100 million dollar. You might, for example, you know a lot of 20 or 30 million dollar cases I come across not all business owners. But, like the design there is, you want to consume one spouse's exemption you don't need and then preserve the second spouse's exemption. So gift out of that spouse's exemption, lock, lock that in at least before 26. Right, partial forfeiture of the other spouse there's lots of things you can do. But yeah, I think I'd say it's probably closer. You know, 15 million is kind of net worth level all in real estate business. If you die tomorrow it's worth talking about and running it, you know, and see if it's worthwhile. Dave: Yeah, and because, like you're saying, one of the biggest risks of that scenario is, let's say, this hypothetical person is married and you know, let's say the exemptions drop in 27 to what you're thinking they will be, yeah, but let's just say, though, that the year before. And then let's say he dies in 2029, but let's say the year before he dies he just has a huge year, a record year, yeah, and then the business gets valued. Within nine months of when he dies, he might have a surprise valuation, right? So so, like that's, another piece of it too is you're locking in this valuation at the most conservative value and it sounds like postmortem. Some of those tools may be limited. Jonathon: They're gone. Yeah, once somebody passes away, we can't do any estate tax savings for them. Yeah, you're right, locking in low valuation. So, for example, I just I represented these famous restaurateurs and you know definitely a couple hundred million dollars of restaurants. 2020 happened and all the restaurants shut down and I remember I was just I tried so hard they ended up not pulling a trigger. I said look guys, I said your value of your restaurants because of the COVID pandemic is like probably 20% of what it used to be. Nobody knows how long this pandemic's going. I said let's get these restaurants transferred out of your estate at a depressed gift value. By the way, we got a file the only filing for this is a one-time gift. Federal gift tax return said hey, here's our valuation, irs, here's what we transferred. There's only there's a less than 1% reported audit rate on those. Okay, IRS has three years to challenge the value. If they don't which they never do then you've cleansed that gift and that valuation At death. Right now, there's almost 100% chance that an estate tax auditor at least somebody's going to look at it from the IRS. They might not do a full audit, but somebody's going to look at it. So if you've got attractive valuations, especially if it's a depressed year on your EBITDA. For whatever reason, that's the year to get it in. It's like buying low, selling high. Similar you want to transfer that into the gift trust. When it's low, use a minimal amount of your exemption and soak up all that post-gift appreciation out of the estate. Two more things. Life insurance is a big deal. It's not something I sell, but for business owners it's just good estate planning. Dave: Yeah, just to have the liquidity to pay the estate tax. Jonathon: Exactly yeah, because there's a section of tax code the good news that says if you pass away and more than 35% of your estate is trapped up in a business, or even if you're a real estate professional, real estate business can qualify and you get to pay that estate tax actually over up to 15 years. Okay, section 61. Here's the problem. The IRS wants liens. You've got now IRS as your partner or you died and your partner's now the IRS liens and all the headache. So here's what I tell clients. I say look, I can, if you live long enough, I can almost certainly wipe out your estate tax without you ever having to, you know, lose control or give up a penny, essentially. But until, like, if you've already come to me, you've got a hundred million dollars, say well, or a business worth a hundred, say it's going to take some, there's some time component. Can't immediately wipe out the death tax, but there's a time component, usually by like year 10, 20, we're getting close. So buy a big old policy of life insurance. We get it into the gift trust, irre. We get it into the gift trust, irrevocable life insurance trust or an islet, at least the death benefit isn't getting included in the estate. And then if you get a flexible life insurance policy, you can always scale down that death benefit as I'm doing my job over the years in the estate tax. You can reduce that death benefit, but if you have an unexpected death, at least we've got some liquidity to get the IRS out of the way and you don't got liens on the business for 15 years, right, yeah, so that's critical. We've got a few more minutes, unless you have something else, I want to talk about my process, yeah, so again, this is very unique. Attorneys drive me as crazy as they drive most businesses. What's the complaints about? In fact, in 20 minutes I'm going to present to all my attorneys here at the firm on best practices, on efficiencies and productivity, because I've got all these systems down. But what are the knocks? Right, attorneys, they never get back to you. They don't use email, hourly billing, some range, you know. I remember a famous quote. You know some attorney said oh, it's going to cost I don't know $5,000 to $10,000. And it was a construction, a builder, and I remember the builder said wait a second, I can quote a $20 million project down to the penny and you can't quote a darn estate plan to give me a $5,000 to $10,000 range. Anyways, hourly billings, all this talking over their head. It takes five meetings to get anything done. It's complicated. So I solved all this Five years ago. I went to just kind of revamp the whole model and I do a number of things. First, I don't have any junior lawyers. Okay, you think it's hard to hire in your industry for your business? Try the neurosurgery of the law in a small market it's impossible even find senior lawyers that are really good at this at the advanced planning. So it's driving me crazy. You know quality control and delays, where who's on which client stuff comes back. It's a mess. I got a red line in it, lots of control lock with control, caseload control and quality control and delay. So I'd only use no junior lawyers. I take a limited number of cases. I charge a premium fee but I joke that you buy my brain. You don't buy some 30 year lawyers. Brain number two it's a flat fee model. I've got a scheduled flat fee model, almost always tax deductible against the business income as a legal expense get. You get a 40, 50% discount right after that One-time fee. So we go through this process and we get it set up. Most people they need a will trust update. They need the optimized gift trust. Maybe they need this other charitable trust for income tax planning. But if you do it right, the structure is simple and it's easy to operate. At the very end of my process I've got an instruction manual. I call it. It says, hey, the lawyer set all this stuff up, but here's how you operate it. Copy the CPA, copy the investment advisor. Here's six pages. Here's what you did. Here's how to operate it. Let's have annual reviews. I don't charge for annual reviews. I don't charge for phone calls. After they've done it, they want to add some minor assets in there. We don't charge for that. You get a one-time fee and you'll get all these hourly billings. And then the third thing that I do that's pretty unique, although probably in the next two years I'll be buried, so I don't know if I can do this part always, but right now, when it's slow years, we don't have a tax law change. If I have a conversation with a new prospective client 30, 45 minute call I then get all the information I need. I work for free initially, come back about four weeks later with a full roadmap recommendation about 10 pages. So here's your objectives, here's your background. Here's exactly what I would do if I were you. Include a diagram, include those financial projections. I give it all away for free, picks me maybe eight, 10 hours, but because I've it all away for free, it takes me maybe eight, 10 hours, but because I've got all the processes, it usually takes other lawyers a lot longer than that. And then it has the fee, quote one-time fee. I'd say three out of four times people say maybe one of that. People say I like this lawyer. I see I've gotten to know him, I've gotten to see his work. I like the plan and here's what it costs one-time fee. He's not relying on junior lawyers. He's going to get this done in three phone calls, maybe two, and so they like to probably get to sample the process without having to pay 20 grand in hourly fees find out this lawyer isn't going to do it. Dave: Yeah, lots of that is really. And the thing is, even if they took your roadmap to another attorney, unless they had your level of expertise, they really couldn't execute on that roadmap anyway, right. Jonathon: Yeah, that's the thing I joke. Sometimes I say I can give you the key to my Ferrari, but I don't know. It doesn't mean you can drive it right, you could turn it on, but you're not going to know how to really use it. So that happens every now and then and I'm straight up I say look, if you shop this around, you can probably get it for half a third of the cost. Dave: But you're going to get a junior lawyer. Jonathon: You're not going to get somebody that's done this 500 times Top firm in Silicon Valley. You know you're not going to get it in two or three. I mean you just I'm doing all the drafting over time. I mean iron sharpens, iron, you get those reps. Senior lawyers are lazy, they're just sourcing business and sending it down the hall to a junior and they don't know what's going on in those documents. And if it's not done right. You're building a house for all of your wealth $450 million my client projected. If that trust isn't done right, we have client, like a lot of our clients myself, we'll spend 20, 30 grand on a kitchen remodel. But I have clients that say wait a second, I don't want to spend 50, 100 grand on this, I can get it done for 15 or 25. And I'm like do you know how important this is? This is not the area to skimp. You want to experience lawyer drafting because you can't change it later if it's not done right. Dave: Yeah Well, and then the fact that it's a, fact that it's a, it's an upfront payment. Jonathon: Like you know that they get the annual reviews for you know, right? No ongoing billings and you're working? Dave: yeah, there's huge value. It's unique it shouldn't be unique. Jonathon: In my industry it sounds like you know most industries they've come a long way. The law is still behind the times, at least in the state. Dave: Yeah, the law and in the accounting profession too. Yeah, right, so the other thing that I think people don't realize is that folks really don't need a pure custom estate plan. My sense is they need a standardized plan, right? Because I'm guessing that all of those 500 estate plans you've done fall into a small number of categories, fact patterns, right. Jonathon: I agree. There's probably about five fact patterns. You've done enough. You know this is this bucket, this is the design and then when you go through, there is customization, right, Once we go through I send out the draft gift trust. It goes out with an explanatory memo. There's 15, 20 custom decision points usually that we go through. So there's customization. But generally you're right, the design, the funding design, most of the time goes in four or five buckets. Dave: Well, it's the same reason that you know, for better, for worse, a Toyota objectively has better big build quality than a hand-built exotic car because of the repetitions and the standardizations and the perfection, and you know six Sigma, you know defect measurement, and now so I can appreciate the value of starting with a framework that's proven. I mean even just something as simple as you know when you're, if you start with standardized documents that you can search and replace, you know stuff with you're far better off than just starting with a clean slate or something that's very different than what you're going to end up. Jonathon: You're right. Yeah, I mean my process, my documents I put hundreds of hours into and I'm constantly. That's again, a benefit of doing it myself and not relying on junior lawyers is I'm constantly tweaking my forms. At least once a week there's something in a memo or something I'm going to add this or change this, and so you're constantly improving it. That happens at a lot of law firms, but again, it's usually junior lawyers that are updating, doing all that, and you don't have senior lawyers doing this over and over. Dave: So yeah. Jonathon: And again, the times suck for business owners. They, like you know, you know when I've done. Probably each of these cases takes me I don't know 10, 20 hours, all in right. If you multiply that by my billable rate, you know it's more expensive. You're buying the premium of making sure something that's been done. You know, optimized right and so yeah there's a premium. I have a buddy that jokes, or he's always asking me well, I've got this document model, this software that I can just push the buttons, like you know. Why are you charging so much? Like I said, it's so much more than just even if you get a good document. It's the funding design, it's being able to immediately respond with answers, being able to simplify complex things like we've had during this call, and spit it out in a digestible, understandable format. It's the process. It's the backend instruction manual and the front understandable format. It's the process. It's the back-end instruction manual and the front-end memo. It's all of that. That's where the value is. And again, I'm going to tell my lawyers in about 10 minutes. I'm going to talk about all this with them, because lawyers don't do this right. They don't do it. Dave: Yeah, they're really paying you not for your time, but for your expertise, knowledge, best practices, all of that. Well, hey, I know we're running up against our time limit. If somebody wants to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to reach out? Linkedin email phone. Jonathon:Email's best. jmorrison@frgalaw.com. So Frazier Ryan, goldberg, arnold, f-r-g-a-l-a-wcom, and again reach out say hey, here's my situation. Heard you on the podcast and I've got a forum process. I respond here's all the materials, here's where I think hop on a 45-minute Zoom. A paralegal usually gathers some 10 minutes of information before that. We'll run the numbers on the fly. We'll look at the stuff on the fly and see if it makes sense and I tell clients look, I make a good living. I say if this doesn't work for you, I'm happy to talk myself out of a job and tell you doesn't. But if it does, you know let's get going. Because there's so much there's no other industry that you can get thousand to one return. I mean $200 million of estate taxes saved for less than a hundred grand. No other any good financial advisor knows to run to the estate attorney, cause that's where the that's a low hanging fruit, it's the best money you can spend. And then making sure we also make sure all your kids inheritance protected from creditors. Lawsuits and divorce like that may be more important than the tax savings. Making sure that the kids inheritance is well-managed and protected, even if they have control over it. We can do it, so it's all protected so a lot of there's a lot of benefits to what I do. I love what I do and it's easy to sell because it's something I believe in. Dave: Yeah, there's a lot of. Well, Jonathan, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking time out of your day. I know you have a meeting to get to, so why don't we wrap it up and again, thank you so much for your time and have a great day. Jonathon: Thank you Wonderful, appreciate it.

Tracy Hates Dave...No, Really 05/06/24

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: The Broken Screwdriver and other parables, published by bhauth on March 4, 2024 on LessWrong. previously: The Parable Of The Fallen Pendulum The Broken Screwdriver Alice: Hey Bob, I need something to put this screw in the wall. Bob: OK, here's a screwdriver. Alice starts trying to hammer a screw in using the butt of the screwdriver. Alice: I think this screwdriver is broken. Bob: You're not using it correctly, you have to fit the other end inside the screw and twist the screw in. Alice tries doing that. Alice: It's still not working. Bob: You're using the hex bit, you need to swap it for the Philips head. Alice: Bob, this screwdriver has already failed to work twice, and each time, I did a Bayesian update against it being a working screwdriver. It seems pretty likely that it's actually broken. Bob: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. Some tools are so difficult to use that they require years of study to operate. You should only be updating towards the screwdriver being broken to the extent that you're confident you're using it correctly, and from what I've seen, you should have low confidence in that. Alice: I can only judge the chance that I'm doing things wrong from my results with other tools. I've been very successful at using hammers with nails, and nails seem similar to screws to me. The Finicky Car Bob is buying a used car from Carol. Bob: I want to see the car running, to make sure it works. Carol: Sure, I'll take you for a short drive. The car leaks oil. Unbeknownst to Bob, Carol adds oil to the car immediately before the drive. Carol then takes Bob for a short drive, avoiding using the broken 3rd gear. Bob buys the car, takes it home, and it soon stops working. Bob: Carol, you sold me a broken car. Carol: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. It's not my fault you weren't using this one correctly. Bob: We live in a society that has social expectations about the ranges of conditions in which things are normally expected to work. Carol: Yeah, well, in my culture, people don't expect stuff to work beyond the extent to which it's demonstrated. The Suspicious Math Professor Bob signs up for an advanced math class from Professor Dave at a university. He arrives at the first class, and finds that he's the only student there. Bob: Hello professor. So, what will we be covering today? Dave: Hello! The ultimate goal here is teaching you all about inter-universal Teichmüller theory, but to truly understand it, we must start by understanding Zazen meditation. Light that incense and we can get started. Bob: I'm not sure about this. It doesn't seem like the kind of math classes I've had before. It actually seems kind of...crackpot. Dave: No no no. Bob, a crackpot is someone who proposes new theories without being a professor. As you know, I am a professor. You can disagree, but we live in a society that has a social consensus about such things. You simply aren't qualified to make such judgements. Bob: I could accept that argument if you were starting with, say, Diophantine equations or lattice theory, but Zazen meditation isn't even math. I might not be a professor, but you're pitting your credibility against a social consensus of the math-ness of topics, and that outweighs the social consensus of the credibility of professors. Thanks for listening. To help us out with The Nonlinear Library or to learn more, please visit nonlinear.org

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: The Broken Screwdriver and other parables, published by bhauth on March 4, 2024 on LessWrong. previously: The Parable Of The Fallen Pendulum The Broken Screwdriver Alice: Hey Bob, I need something to put this screw in the wall. Bob: OK, here's a screwdriver. Alice starts trying to hammer a screw in using the butt of the screwdriver. Alice: I think this screwdriver is broken. Bob: You're not using it correctly, you have to fit the other end inside the screw and twist the screw in. Alice tries doing that. Alice: It's still not working. Bob: You're using the hex bit, you need to swap it for the Philips head. Alice: Bob, this screwdriver has already failed to work twice, and each time, I did a Bayesian update against it being a working screwdriver. It seems pretty likely that it's actually broken. Bob: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. Some tools are so difficult to use that they require years of study to operate. You should only be updating towards the screwdriver being broken to the extent that you're confident you're using it correctly, and from what I've seen, you should have low confidence in that. Alice: I can only judge the chance that I'm doing things wrong from my results with other tools. I've been very successful at using hammers with nails, and nails seem similar to screws to me. The Finicky Car Bob is buying a used car from Carol. Bob: I want to see the car running, to make sure it works. Carol: Sure, I'll take you for a short drive. The car leaks oil. Unbeknownst to Bob, Carol adds oil to the car immediately before the drive. Carol then takes Bob for a short drive, avoiding using the broken 3rd gear. Bob buys the car, takes it home, and it soon stops working. Bob: Carol, you sold me a broken car. Carol: Tools are only expected to work within a narrow range of conditions. It's not my fault you weren't using this one correctly. Bob: We live in a society that has social expectations about the ranges of conditions in which things are normally expected to work. Carol: Yeah, well, in my culture, people don't expect stuff to work beyond the extent to which it's demonstrated. The Suspicious Math Professor Bob signs up for an advanced math class from Professor Dave at a university. He arrives at the first class, and finds that he's the only student there. Bob: Hello professor. So, what will we be covering today? Dave: Hello! The ultimate goal here is teaching you all about inter-universal Teichmüller theory, but to truly understand it, we must start by understanding Zazen meditation. Light that incense and we can get started. Bob: I'm not sure about this. It doesn't seem like the kind of math classes I've had before. It actually seems kind of...crackpot. Dave: No no no. Bob, a crackpot is someone who proposes new theories without being a professor. As you know, I am a professor. You can disagree, but we live in a society that has a social consensus about such things. You simply aren't qualified to make such judgements. Bob: I could accept that argument if you were starting with, say, Diophantine equations or lattice theory, but Zazen meditation isn't even math. I might not be a professor, but you're pitting your credibility against a social consensus of the math-ness of topics, and that outweighs the social consensus of the credibility of professors. Thanks for listening. To help us out with The Nonlinear Library or to learn more, please visit nonlinear.org

Avec le battage autour du film Napoléon de Ridley Scott, notre ami historien Dave Noël nous parle des traces de Napoléon au Québec. Dave rappelle également l'époque où Jacques Parizeau, Jean Lesage et le Parti québécois d'avant 1976 ont fait la promotion de ce type d'énergie au Québec. Discussion avec Dave Noël, c'était notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres d'une récente biographie de Chartier de Lotbinière (Boréal)Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Dave Noël nous fait ses actualités de l'histoire, il nous parle notamment du Château Vaudreuil, lieu de pouvoir célèbre, demeure —malheureusement disparue— des gouverneurs de la Nouvelle-France, en plein cœur de Montréal.  Discussion Dave Noël, c'était notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres d'une récente biographie de Chartier de Lotbinière (Boréal)Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Discussion avec Dave Noël, c'était notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres d'une récente biographie de Chartier de Lotbinière (Boréal), qui vient de temps à autres nous visiter.  Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

On parle beaucoup d'une députée poète ces temps-ci. Notre ami historien Dave Noël nous parle de la biographie de Gérald Godin de Jonathan Livernois Entrevue avec Dave Noël, historien et journaliste.Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Guillaume Lavoie fait deux propositions pour enrichir les débats à l'Assemblée nationale. Notre ami historien Dave Noël nous parle de la biographie de Gérald Godin de Jonathan Livernois. Dans cet épisode intégral du 14 novembre en entrevue :  Guillaume Lavoie, expert en politique publique Dave Noël, historien et journaliste Une production QUB Radio Novembre 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Un nouveau livre sur le FLQ dans la cinématographie du Québec et un invité spécial remplace Guillaume Lavoie. Dans cet épisode intégral du 6 novembre en entrevue :  Rémi Nadeau, chef de bureau parlementaire à l'Assemblée nationale pour le Journal de Montréal et le Journal de Québec. Dave Noël, historien et journaliste. Une production QUB Radio Novembre 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Trois ans après le 50e anniversaire de la crise d'Octobre, l'historien du cinéma québécois Sylvain Garel lance Le FLQ dans la cinématographie québécoise (éditions Somme toute). C'est un ouvrage massif de 600 pages qui répertorie plus de 200 œuvres, dont la série documentaire Le dernier felquiste de 2020, auquel ont travaillé Dave Noël et Antoine Robitaille. Entrevue avec Dave Noël, historien et journaliste.Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

The conspiracy podcast that eeeeeeveryone's talking about. This week's conspiracies went as follows: Dave: No information on the JFK assassination. Will: A case for whether or not Taylor Swift did dr*gs at the 2023 VMAs Dillon: The giant volcano under Yellowstone. Let's ride. If you'd like to listen to the entire episode, look no further — patreon.com/circlingbackpodcast --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/circling-back/message

Une nouvelle série documentaire disponible dès maintenant Vrai sur lequel notre collaborateur Antoine Robitaille a travaillé : René Lévesque a-t-il été trahi par Claude Morin? Entrevue avec Antoine Robitaille et Dave Noël, journaliste et historien.Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Un épisode riche en confidences pour Benoit Dutrizac. Au-delà des anecdotes cocasses, l'animateur s'attarde aux sujets chauds de l'heure comme les femmes trans dans les sports de compétition et la situation catastrophique dans les rues de Montréal.   Dans cet épisode intégral du mardi 19 septembre, en entrevue : Lyne Bessette, ancienne championne de cyclisme Phil Chu, résident du quartier Chinois de Montréal Antoine Robitaille et Dave Noël, journaliste et historien Une production QUB radioSeptembre 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Identité de genre à l'école : la controverse au Canada anglais est en chemin vers le Québec, estime Patrick Taillon. Chronique historique avec Dave Noël !    Dans cet épisode intégral du 5 septembre en entrevue :    Patrick Taillon, notre chroniqueur constitutionnel et accessoirement professeur de droit à l'Université Laval. Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien, journaliste et auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).    Une production QUB Radio Septembre 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Dave Noël publie un au Boréal l'essai Chartier de Lotbinière Sur tous les fronts 1723-1798, personnage haut en couleur. Le livre présente un portrait détaillé de cet aristocrate canadien qui a fréquenté l'antichambre du pouvoir au XVIIIe siècle, du château Saint-Louis de Québec au château de Versailles, en passant par le palais de Westminster et le Congrès de Philadelphie. Entrevue avec Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien, journaliste et auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal). Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

We bring you a "What Have You Been Watching?" mega episode with discussions about...Season 4 of 'Barry'BlackberryCreed 3Season 3 of 'Dave'Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among ThievesFlamin' HotNo Hard Feelings& MUCH MORE!!!We also discuss the 'Superman: Legacy' casting news!Join the conversation on Twitter: @MACandGUpodcast

The latest episode of the podcast which asks; Whoops Scotties, Tasty Tarts Foster Grants or Allied For Carpets For You?Oh yes – it's back to the Eighventies we go, Pop-Crazed Youngsters, to a year where everyone was loaded into a cannon and fired into the dress-up box, or so we're led to believe. One look at Peter Powell – who has turned up looking like he's booked a week's holiday on a canalboat through Hoseasons – will remind you it wasn't quite like that.It's a boom time for TOTP, is early '81: they're pulling down Crossroads-level ratings week after week and they've got the Music TV field entirely to themselves, but – as this episode demonstrates – we're not in the Yellow Hurll era just yet, and there's a lot of dead wood to clear out. And, as the bill of fare tonight demonstrates, the Seventies are not done quite yet. Musicwise, it's a proper melange of young and old. Sharon Redd tries to be sexually overpowering in front of a grim tableau of gormless youths in visors doing the hand jive. The true icon of 1981 – The Man of Denim – spells out his five-year plan to tackle the social housing crisis in a special filmed broadcast. A punk lad gets dead excited at the sight of someone taking the stage in a PiL t-shirt, only to discover that it's Dave ‘No, the other one' Stewart.The show takes a severe turn towards the elderly when The Who – fresh from their new LP being absolutely coated down in the music papers – followed by Legs & Co ‘neath a giant Scotch egg, and an encore performance of that paint pot on Phil Collins' keyboard. But then! It's the fresh, virile sound of Bucks Fizz in their first ever TOTP performance, followed by an actual video that looks like Proper 1981, by Strange The Clock. Duran Duran pop up for a repeat of their TOTP debut, and then, Oh God, it's Toyah again, followed by Bryan Mirror and his new single, I Remember Johnny Lennon. Neil Kulkarni and Taylor Parkes join Al Needham in order to throw some bricks and petrol bombs at 1981, pausing along the way to discuss Masonic tombolas, Grange Hill tube station, the career of The Who in egg form, the damage that the American Syd Little wrought upon the charts, and – unfortunately – Breakfast television-related masturbatory shame. SWEARING! AND A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT!Video Playlist | Subscribe | Facebook | Twitter | The Chart Music Wiki | PatreonGet your tickets for Chart Music at the London Podcast Festival HERE Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Feux de forêt : on s'entretient avec deux députés dont les régions sont profondément affectées par la crise des feux de forêt. Quel est le rôle de l'élu dans de telles circonstances? Le stade municipal : un leg sportif de Duplessis à découvrir. 6e édition des Rendez-vous d'histoire de Québec. 79e anniversaire du débarquement de Normandie.    Dans cet épisode intégral du 6 juin, en entrevue :    Dave Noël, chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste et auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal.) Denis Lamothe, député d'Ungava et avec Daniel Bernard, député de Rouyn-Noranda-Témiscamingue.    Une production QUB Radio Juin 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Le stade municipal : un leg sportif de Duplessis à découvrir. 6e édition des Rendez-vous d'histoire de Québec. 79e anniversaire du débarquement de Normandie.  Chronique de Dave Noël, chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste et auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal.)Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Mardi chronique d'histoire ! Parce que l'histoire et le passé sont toujours d'actualité en politique. On parle des patriotes et du régime seigneurial.  Entrevue avec Dave Noël, chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal). Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

On parle des patriotes et du régime seigneurial avec notre chroniqueur d'histoire Dave Noël. Hausse du salaire des élus : est-ce que Québec solidaire vient de perdre toute crédibilité? Monsef Derraji est d'avis que oui.   Dans cet épisode intégral du 30 mai, en entrevue :    Dave Noël, chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).  Monsef Derraji, leader parlementaire de l'opposition officielle libérale.        Une production QUB Radio Mai 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Dave est avec nous tous les mardis parce que l'histoire et le passé sont toujours d'actualité en politique. Parlons des patriotes de 1837-1838, c'était le jour férié en leur honneur hier. Entrevue avec Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

À Ottawa, le rapporteur spécial David Johnston a déposé son rapport et il conclut qu'aucune commission sur l'ingérence chinoise n'est pas nécessaire. Dave Noël est avec nous tous les mardis parce que l'histoire et le passé sont toujours d'actualité en politique. Parlons des patriotes de 1837-1838, c'était le jour férié en leur honneur hier.   Dans cet épisode intégral du 23 mai, en entrevue :    Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).  Patrick Taillon, notre chroniqueur constitutionnel et accessoirement professeur de droit à l'université Laval.  Une production QUB Radio Mai 2023  Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Dave Noël célèbre 2 anniversaires historiques avec nous. Est-ce que nos partis politiques manquent d'intelligence?   Dans cet épisode intégral du 16 mai, en entrevue :    Dave Noël, chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien, journaliste et auteur. Michel Kelly-Gagnon, président fondateur de l'Institut économique de Montréal et entrevue avec Simon Tremblay-Pepin de l'Université St-Paul.   Une production QUB Radio Mai 2023  Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

On célèbre le 300e anniversaire du château Vaudreuil, situé à Montréal. On souligne également le 150e anniversaire du décès de l'autre père fondateur : George-Étienne Cartier. Entrevue avec Dave Noël, chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien, journaliste et auteur.Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

La fête des Patriotes s'en vient : on parle de Papineau avec notre chroniqueur d'histoire. Loi 25 : le gouvernement a déposé son projet pour lutter contre l'hébergement touristique illégal. On en discute avec la ministre du Tourisme.   Dans cet épisode intégral du 9 mai, en entrevue :    Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien, journaliste et auteur.  Caroline Proulx, ministre du Tourisme.     Une production QUB Radio Mai 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

La fête des Patriotes s'en vient : on parle de Papineau avec notre chroniqueur d'histoire.  Entrevue avec Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien, journaliste et auteur.   Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Flat Earth Dave conspiracy week Be honest do you never exercise Jake Maddock – you should never go on a break Dad refuses to give 3 year old a birthday party Spanish word for tourists EV Cars with Paul Maric  Aussies don't take winter seriously   Mike E & Emma are live on RnB Fridays Radio, on DAB and the LiSTNR app, weekdays 7-10amSubscribe on LiSTNR: https://play.listnr.com/podcast/mike-e-and-emmaSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

100e anniversaire du décès de l'ancien premier ministre du Québec Louis-Olivier Taillon. Chronique de  Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal)Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Spécial livres à l'occasion du Salon du livre de Québec. Chronique de Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Québec a subi en 1759 une attaque comparable à ce que subissent les villes ukrainiennes depuis un an. Décès de l'ancien felquiste Pierre Schneider. Chronique de Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

On se penche sur une archive qui vient de surgir sur Internet: c'est le discours du budget de Parizeau (1979). Chronique avec Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement historien et journaliste, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

In this episode, we detour from miniatures to chat to Marc Rodrigue, Montreal-based designer of the award-winning French and Indian Wars boardgame, Bayonets and Tomahawks, published by GMT Games.   We talk about Marc's abiding interest in the French and Indian War, and the design process that led to his game.   Marc's also a FIW reenactor, and has some interesting insights to the period from portraying a soldier of the Franche de la marine.   Marc's current projects include an interesting looking WW2 armour game, reflecting his love of tanks, and some other fascinating projects. After we said au revoir to Marc, James and I chatted about the ups and downs (and legalities) of 3D printing, getting ready for Hot Lead in less than two week's time, playing Napoleon in a tactical game, James' initial thoughts on Osprey's new SF rules, Xenos Rampant, and an early look at Sam Mustafa's Nimitz, along with some opinions as to why destroyers are cool. Links to things we discussed: Marc Bayonets and Tomahawks: https://www.gmtgames.com/p-978-bayonets-tomahawks-2nd-printing.aspx B&T on BGG: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/206509/bayonets-tomahawks Academy Games:  1754 FIW game: https://www.academygames.com/pages/1754 FIW reenactors in Montreal: https://atmmontreal.com/en/who-are-we/ Other Stuff: Nimitz by Sam Mustafa: https://sammustafa.com/nimitz Xenos Rampant by Osprey Publishing: https://ospreypublishing.com/ca/xenos-rampant-9781472852366/   Marc's Book Contributions to the CWP Virtual Library: Peter McLeod, Backs to the Wall: the Battle of Sainte-Foy and the Conquest of Canada, https://www.amazon.ca/Backs-Wall-Battle-Sainte-Foy-Conquest-ebook/dp/B01LX5EN7P/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1PVU4K375ZT6A&keywords=backs+to+the+wall+the+siege+of+quebec&qid=1679105042&s=digital-text&sprefix=backs+to+the+wall+the+siege+of+quebec%2Cdigital-text%2C76&sr=1-1 Peter MacLeod:  Northern Armageddon:  the Battle of the Plains of Abraham and the Making of the American Revolution ,https://www.amazon.ca/Northern-Armageddon-Peter-MacLeod-author/dp/1101973501 Fred Anderson:  Crucible of War:  The Seven Years and the Fate of Empire in British North America, 1754-1766, https://www.amazon.ca/Crucible-War-British-America-1754-1766/dp/0375706364 David Preston:  Braddock's Defeat:  The Battle of the Monongahela and the Road to Revolution, https://www.amazon.ca/Braddocks-Defeat-Battle-Monongahela-Revolution/dp/0190658517 La petite guerre et la chute de la Nouvelle-France" by Laurent Nerich, a French military analyst.  It blows away the myth of the French “forest Rambos” and describes very well the capabilities and limitations of “Canadien" light troops.   "Montcalm, général américain” by Québécois historian Dave Noël. Like Preston's book “Braddocks Defeat” book does for the British general, it gives a more proper portrayal of how that French general was adapted to the North American theater.    Closing Music:  Aupres de ma blonde, sung  by Olivia Chaney, https://youtu.be/lY2izR3fN_U Contact Us (We Love Hearing From You!): Canadian Wargamer Podcast Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/canadianwargamerpodcast Mike: madpadre@gmail.com @MarshalLuigi www.madpadrewargames.blogspot.com James: jamesmanto@gmail.com @JamesManto4 www.rabbitsinmybasement.blogspot.com      

Retour sur la parution d'un livre d'Alain Lavigne sur Jacques Parizeau.Chronique de Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement journaliste au Devoir, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Les actualités de l'Histoire du 7 mars 2023. L'esprit révolutionnaire de 1775. Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement journaliste au Devoir, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal).Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

On fait un tour dans le temps avec une archive de René Lévesque datant de 1978 | On jase féminisme avec la ministre responsable de la Condition féminine  Dans cet épisode intégral du mardi 7 mars, en entrevue :  Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire Martine Biron, ministre des Relations internationales et de la Francophonie et ministre responsable de la Condition féminine Une production QUB radioMars 2023Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Les souverainistes écossais vivent leur déprime post-référendaire. Lucien Bouchard présente Louis-Hyppolyte La Fontaine. Dave Noël, notre chroniqueur d'histoire et accessoirement journaliste au Devoir, auteur entre autres de Montcalm, général américain (Boréal). Il est avec nous tous les mardis parce l'histoire et le passé sont toujours d'actualité en politique.Pour de l'information concernant l'utilisation de vos données personnelles - https://omnystudio.com/policies/listener/fr

Festival Project A Saga S Ū P A © R E E ™ One World. | PEACE. LOVE. UNITY. RESPECT. | Lifelong friends navigate the infinitely incredible world of rave culture, journeying together (and sometimes, apart) into the PLUniveRse© in fantastical, philosophical, and third-eye-opening adventures--the likes of which have never been seen (or foretold.) Festival Project™ is a multi-genre, mystifying and magical cross-genre series, set against the backdrop of modern rave culture-- combined with historical and futuristic elements-- across expansions of space-and-time, unifying with The Universal Consciousness in a multidimensional and explorative ensemble of Films, Episodic Series, Music Videos, Extended Playlists, and Concept Albums. A perpetual symphony of artistic storytelling though a cavalcade of wonderful and whimsical characters along high-intensity, off-the-map adventures--showcased through Music, Film & Interactive Art Explorations--set upon the dreamlike actual reality of an unravelling fabric of time-and-space. Enter The Multiverse: Anything Is Possible. This explosive and expansive wave of enigmatic, chaos-colliding, charismatic [ and often comedic] kinetic energy, reflects a shared experience throughout all time in human connection; Journey beyond the unknown, to Worlds Within--and Without. Everything is Everything. The Festival Project Saga is a multi-media Music, Film and Television saga that offers a new perspective on the ever-changing and recently popularized culture of dance music; it touches on the history of the culture as a whole, as well as a variety of other societal issues this generation faces—friendship, connectivity, communication—the dawn of social media, America's education system and justice system, immigration, and emerging mental health and drug crisis—while also taking a look at a history of counter culture as a derivative of the rapidly evolving technology of today's society. Through its characters and storylines, we dive deeply into a conglomerate of generational growth and exponentially educational topics, lightheartedly touching tales of friendship, family through blood and through bond, and exploring fields, of Astrology, Philosophy. Festival Trip- Two lifelong friends take a two-week-long trip across the country, to attend two major music festivals—one on the west coast (Among Aliens, in California), and one on the east (Ultimate Music Festival) Chava Hoffs Sala Emillio Gunther Ross- The more than interesting circus-act of a plug/one of Sala's romantic interests, who just happens to be in the same place at the same time, once Sala and Chava arrive in California. Solomon Dominguez- Chava's “homie-lover-friend”, a DC native transplanted to LA who hustles and bustles the 3-job life to live the California dream—a surprisingly dedicated and loyal friend to Chava, who considers him the “king of fuckboys”—which, is not entirely untrue. Johnny McEntire- An eclectic and friendly photographer who stumbles upon Sala during a vulnerable moment—a sweet, humble, and vibrant personality, Chava mostly dismisses him as just another victim of Sala's constantly-inconstant romantic gestures and affiliations. Grace Williams (Chava's Super-Christian (but very sweet) Aunt) Billy Williams- Chava's very dorky, southern Baptist uncle who can't help but throw in a (praise-jesus) Krista DeVaunte- Bride-To-Be—Noah's Fiance Noah Williams- Chava's Cousin, the groom to be Naomi Williams- Chava's salty Cousin, and freinemy since birth—Noah's younger sister Sonny Johnson— Chava's ex-fiance Dustin Roberts—Sala's ex-boyfriend Juan Manuel Jose Melendez Gutierrez-Rodriguez—Sala's current boyfriend, with whom she lives & works with. Running Jokes: -Ridiculous DJ names and Absurd Fictional Festivals -Speaking Spanish with a Mandarin-inflenced dialect—speaking/yelling in awful Spanish-sounding-Mandarin—speaking “Mandarish” or “Spandarin” -Every time Chava mentions Sonny (her ex), Sala interjects with “Fuck Sonny!” -Cop Jokes (due to Chava's occupation) “Go climb broke-bitch mountain!” ACT I- The Wedding Bashers/It's Festival Season “Save-The-Date” Inciting Incident—Plans to attend a destination wedding that Chava and her lifelong. long- distance best friend Sala, have been planning for almost a year are abruptly halted when Chava learns via a very eventful FaceTime call (‘Meet The Williams') that her +1 invitation had apparently only applied to her now-ex-fiance [whom her stuck-up family adored because of his abhorrent Christianity], and that the bride-to-be would not allow Sala to take his place on the guest list—as her vivid memories of Sala from Chava's engagement party are severely grotesque. Flashback: Chava + Sonny's engagement party. Chava: Yeah dude, they got all, mad-butthurt that I was bringing you instead of Sonny. Sala: Fuck Sonny! [The Break-Up] Sala: FUCK YOUR BIRTHDAY! CHAVA: I'M SURE YOU WOULD IF YOU COULD, IF MY BIRTHDAY HAD A PENIS. Sala: YOUR BIRTHDAY DOES HAVE A PENIS—IT'S YOU, DICK. CHAVA: THEN SUCK ME, SALLY MAE. SALA: YOU WISH, WANDA. CHAVA: Can't make a wish with no fucking candles, Kandace. SALA: Huh. I would have thought there were candles just judging by hard you fucking BLOW, Bonnie! CHAVA: Then drive off cliff, Clyde. A remote, unnamed city near the North Pole, in the Alaskan Arctic Circle. It is severely cold, even visually so. ACT II- Sunny California ACT III- Sunny Florida In the scene where random ravers find Sala's backpack in the parking lot, debut Rave Dora [Backpack SupaCreeMixx] “I'm a backpack loaded up with things and Knick-knacks too—anything that you might need, I got inside for you...” Festival Trip One-Liners/ Slang/ Phrases Keep up, Kassandra Hold Up, Heather Be back, Becky Back up, Barbra Shut up, Susan/ Shut Up Sandra/ Shut Up Sharon/ Sit Down, Sally Shove It, Shelly Stop It, Stella Chill, Chelsea Cheer Up, Charlie (a reference to Willy Wonka) Get out my biz, Liz Really Billy? Excerpt, Act III Chava: Dude, your energy is killing me. Sala: So. Chava: Soo, fix it. Sala: What do I look like—Bob the Builder? Chava: More like Wreck-It-Ralphed-All-Over-Yourself Sala: Fuck you. Chava: Off limits. I'm the last person on earth you haven't fucked. Sala: Jealous? Chava: Of the super-massive black-hole that is your vagina? No. I just wish my camera had a better low-light filter so I had actual photographic proof of an 8th world wonder. Sala: …fuck you. Chava: ‘No' Means ‘No'. [blows whistle] Get up. Sala: Ahhhhh—Get fucked! Chava: I was—and you ruined it being a hoe—but I'm willing to look past that, because its a beautiful fucking day in Miami and we're about to get lit. C'mon. S'day one. Sala: Day 1 of rave 2, I'm over it. Chava: Hoe, I'm over you. Sala: Get over me, then, bitch— Chava: I already said I am. Get with it. Sala: Get with this dick. Chava: What's a dick without some balls, bro? Pussy. Sala: … Chava: You mad? Sala: I been mad. Chava: Stay mad, then. Sala: How about I just stay here. Chava: Pay here, stay here, bitch—this trip ain't free. Sala: This trip ain't me. Raves are your thing. I'm not a “festival chick.” Chava: You are for the next three days. Sala: …Three…?! Chava: And counting. Get. Some. Motherfuckin' balls. Here, have some Jesus Juice. [She extends her arm, holding the bottle in front of Sala] Sala: Ughhh. Chava: Come on, man. I'm tryna see Cow Turds. Sala: You're engaged to one. Chava: Shut the fuck up and drink. Here, I'll have one with you. The Epic Trip – ‘Girl—Meet World'. After breaking up with both her ex-fiance and her best friend, a depressed and anxious Chava decides to take a last-minute trip to another one of her bucket list destinations: The Epic Music Festival in Las Vegas, Nevada. F*ckFest: The Origins (Prequel) 21-year-old Chava Hoffs, a longtime raver and lover of all things dance culture, finally convinces her bar-scene best friend to accompany her to a regional event in her area, ‘F*ckfest', Sala's first ever festival/rave where—to both her and Chava's surprise, she connects with other longtime friends she had no idea were immersed into the culture. Sala, having been “rave-retired” since entering her first serious relationship, becomes overly-excited and branches off on her own, reconnecting with her true self after spending too long in her own shell—she discovers her love for an up-and-coming new artist (‘Shluggy') who magnetizes her with a newly-created sound (‘PukeRock'—a play on “VomitStep”) Vibes [Mini Series, Prequel]- A sequel-in-installments to the shenanigans following F*ckfest, where Chava returns to visit Sala and return to ‘one of her favorite venues', which now hosts GoF*ckYourself (GFY), the biggest summertime festival in the region. Festival Trip II [First Sequel ]- It's been a magical year and the breakup is over; A 20-something's imaginary friend returns, a decade after disappearing, just as she finds herself on the brink of ‘real adulthood', and has settled into the mundane and mediocre—as he leads her on a journey of self-discovery, she internally struggles with whether to tell her therapist—after deciding (or rather, being convinced) she shouldn't, she begins a desperate search for answers in what seems like a downward spiral into (Use- I'm on my way to heaven, for trailer.) A group of friends decide to form their own society after discovering an “uncharted” island—what they don't know [understand] is that the world government is observing at every angle—and as their population increases, they struggle as the popularity of their culture and lifestyle explode— Craig's world- an ensemble about the good old days of craigslist Ū [Amnesia/Working Title] Miami (Ami) A fashion designer and music enthusiast who attends festivals in her spare time, seeking inspiration for her fashion and design blog; she shares an apartment with her lesbian best friend from college, who works as a freelance writer and photographer. Crystal (Chrys) A short-haired-yet-feminine gender-non-conforming lovable with a dry sense of humor and an eye for art; Music lover and fan of festivals, Miami's “convert” into the rave world. Serra- A high-matinence instagram model who supports herself through social media promotion and influencing, modeling Miami's fashion line and sugar-babying/arm-candying to make her way through life, usually attending festivals as someone's date or just to take pictures/show face. Samuel/Donnie- Sensei Samurai: An award-winning world-renowned music artist and specialty DJ, the soul-headliner of ‘Magic's Mountain art and Music Festival' Daz- Sam/Donnie's Manager- (Antagonist) Lazers, pyrotechnics, strobes, and confetti light the night sky as Sensei Samurai, a medium-build white guy sporting two long braids and a samurai cut (his signature style), dances atop the table which supports a state-of-the-art DJ set-up; The stage is massive, the crowd is wild--but he is at home--or rather, at work, and at the top of his game. He jumps down from the table, drinking from a red solo cup, before he picks up the microphone to speak to his audience: Samuel: LET ME SEE YOU FUCKING JUMP. He dances around, flailing his arms to gesture to the crowd, drinking again from his red solo cup . He moves to the beat of the music as he focuses to adjust the mixer, structuring a build-up. His manager watches from backstage, carefully eying his every move. Samuel: --ARE YOU GUYS READY? [He lights a ciggarette, sips from his cup again as he continues to mix. He nods along to the beat, grooving as he plots his next move, looking into the crowd with hunger in his eye.] Dez: (speaking into a earpiece) Sammy, take it easy... [He glances stage left, to where Dez is situated and watching him like a hawk; He nonchalantly shrugs, blowing out a plume of smoke into the air, decisively irritated with the instruction.] Dez: (Cont'd): I mean it, chill. [Samuel sticks his finger into his ear, wiggling it profusely--and dislodges the hidden inner-earpiece, eyeing Dez as he pulls up his headphones, deep in the mix; He takes a long drag from his ciggarette, master-minding as he feverously twists the knobs and dials of the mixer.] Samuel (over the mic) NO CHILL MOTHERFUCKERS. [The music speeds as he prepares for the drop.] Dez: (forgetting momentarily that he will not be heard) Sam, don't--! [Too late. Samuel Drops the bass so hard, it hurts, ripping off his headphones and running straight into the crowd, head first to crowd surf. The crowd goes massively, insanely wild.] Through the lens of Crystal's camera, we see a series of still photos, capturing Sam's wild plunge into the crowd, just off-center in the front row. Miami looks to her right, giving her a nod of approval; Crystal shoots her a hand signal for “ok”. Miami looks to her left, lifting an eyebrow and smirking at Serra, who bounces off-beat against a tall wooky gentleman who has his arms around her through the sleeves of a spirit hood, tilting her head from side to side as she poses for selfies. Miami happily sways to the motion of the music, putting one hand over the rail and pulling up her mask with the other, as she watches Samuel be lifted back onto the stage and take his place behind the decks. The set continues, the crowd, the lazers, and the effects go wild: The backdrop reads ‘SENSEI SAMURAI' His backup dancers are acrobatic ninjas. Samuel: Thank you Magical Mountain, I Love You Guys!! The crowd goes wild as Samuel exits the stage, ignoring Dez as he breezes past him. Dez: (following after him) I thought I said, “No more crowd surfing, no more stage diving.” Samuel: I thought you said that, too. Dez: Do you recall “OhMyLanta?” Samuel: (sarcastically) Oh, you mean that festival in Atlanta? Dez: Yes. Samuel: How creative. Dez: ‘Creative' would describe the legal team's very expensive, very strenuous tactical strategy which weaseled you out of a very serious lawsuit. Samuel: What? When was this? Dez: This was when you decided to stage dive wearing goth-pants and your chains got stuck in that kid's earholes Samuel: They're called Tripp pants. Dez: Oh yeah...what do you call them after mutilating a teenager with them? Samuel: Tripp pants I can sell on eBay. I made that kid a star. Dez: You made him a cripple. Samuel: --we still talk. [EXT. A FARAWAY FOREST] Bass blasts through the christmas-lit forest, a festival set in the meadow against the lush and natural forest scenery; Attendees come-and-go to-and-from the lines of tents and out into the festival grounds, where DJs headline stages, dancers and performers interact with spectators, vendors practice their unique salesmanship, and the wild and true nature of ravers is unleashed. Frozen breath leaks from the laughing mouths of three young individuals, running through the forest; Twigs crush and leaves crackle underfoot of their prancing and galloping feet, clad in combat boots, tennis shoes, and platforms, respectively. Ripped fishnets hug the thighs that sweep together rapidly, swooshing as the legs that bare them race forward; a pashmina trails behind one's back, acting as a cape of sorts. A thud, in the darkness of the forest. Crystal and Serra continue forward, unaware their friend has fallen for a few short moments, leaving Miami behind. Miami confusedly looks for the obstruction which caused her to trip, discovering under a pile of brush and leaves, a man (Samuel) lying face down on the ground; her eyes widen and she draws slightly back, frightened, before squinting and leaning in to get a closer look; She turns on a glow toy for added light, she pants heavily under her breath, shaking slightly as she brushes away debris and leaves, uncovering his head and shoulders, revealing he is wearing a mask. She examines him. His glasses are broken, lying on the ground under his face--His hair is wet; he appears dead. Crystal: ...I told you not to wear those. Miami: Yo… Crystal: Yo--*gasps* (she grabs Serra by the shoulder, holding her back.) Serra: (She notices the body, under her pashmina, spirit hood, and glasses) Ohwhatthefuck. (she takes a few steps back) Crystal: Don't move. Serra: Yeah, fuck that. Fuck this. (she wraps the pashmina tightly around her face) [muffled] Fuck this. Crystal: ...Ami, we should get out of here. Miami: We should help him. Crystal: He may be beyond help, honey. Serra: He's fucking dead. Whatthefuck. Fuck this! Crystal: ...Is he dead? Miami: (she looks at him closely, there are no signs of life. she checks for breathing with her hand.) ...I don't know. (she checks again, leaning in closer. she grabs his wrist to check a pulse) Serra: Don't touch it! Miami: Shut up, I'm trying to get a pulse (beat) ...he's super cold. Serra: He's super dead! Miam: No, no...I don't think so. Crystal, come here--help me turn him over. Crystal: Are you sure? What if he--wakes up and tries to--?? Miami: (urgently) What if it was you? Crystal fishes for a flashlight and switchblade in her fanny pack, places the flashlight in her mouth and positioning the knife under her kandi cuffs. She cautiously inches forward. Crystal: Serra, try to get some cell service so we can call for help. The girls carefully turn him onto his back, wide eyed and bewildered. He is completely lifeless, clamy and pale--covered with dirt, and forestry. Miami continues to check for a pulse, shaking her head as he continues to appear dead. Crystal: Do you feel anything? Miami: …(shaking her head) I can't...he's like…(as she pulls up the sleeve of his hoodie and notices a familiar tattoo. she pauses for a moment, thinks, and then looks towards his head) Do you still have my mirror in your fanny pack?) Crystal returns to her fanny pack, digging for the mirror. Miami carefuly leans in towards the man, examining him once more; she notices a necklace, also familiar--she thinks, as she moves to remove first the excess hair, and then the mask from his face, very carefully. She peels off his mask, immidiately shocked as she reckognizes his face--It is Samuel, who she knows as Sensai Samurai. She yeeps (imploded gasp, making Crystal look up; she, too recognizes him; she gasps. They look at eachother, then at him--then back to eachother.) Miami: ...Give me your mirror. Crystal: Dude, is this…? Miami: Your mirror. (she holds the mirror under his nose--a subtle cloud of fog appears; he is, in fact, alive.) Crystal: Oh, my God. Miami: He's breathing. Serra! Crystal: ...This is Sensai Samurai. Miami: (trying to convince herself) It probably just looks like him…. Crystal: I just took one-hundred close-up photos, dude--like, less than an hour ago-- Miami: Shhhhh! (she frantically begins to check his pockets) He's gotta have a wallet. Crystal: What, you were going to save him--now you wanna roll him? Miami: An ID. He's got to have an ID. (she frantically searches him) Hey Serra! (Crystal lifts the other sleeve of his sweater, revealing a brightly colored wristband, and one singular kandi bracelet, which reads “Sensai” Simoltaneously, Miami has found something in one of the pockets--she produces a small box from one of the pockets of his cargo pants) Crystal: Holy fuck. Look. (she gestures the wrist band and bracelet.) Miami: ...Artist's wristband. Fuck. It is him. Crystal: [Samuel is slumped lifelessly over both Crystal and Miami's shoulders, head hanging downward and hair flailing and dangling in his face as the girls struggle to support him. His oversized light-up sunglasses begin slipping, almost revealing his eyes.] Girl:(looking over, concerned) ...Is your friend okay? [He is clearly not. Serra slides her finger up his nose to adjust his glasses, eyeing the girl suspiciously.] Crystal: [flatly] Yes. [Samuel's dead-weight pulls him towards the ground, as he slips; the girls struggle to readjust; he seems heavier by the minute. They all three stare back at the girl, awkwardly; Miami fakes an ‘everything's fine' smile, while Crystal stares blankly through her sunglasses and Serra shoots a look of dissatisfaction. [INT. KITCHEN. DAY.] The three girls gaze in awe of Donnie, multitasking busily in the kitchen, hair pinned neatly atop his head with chopsticks, wearing a neatly-pressed (as in, freshly ironed) apron, as he removes one baking mit with his mouth and works about, happily consumed and bouncily, humming. -...He's so...domestic. Crystal -You'd think he'd carry a better tune. Miami- Cause you'd be belting melodies after waking up out of a drug-induced coma? Crystal- No--I guess I'd open a bake shop in some random girls' kitchen. Miami: Donnie? Donnie: Hmm, yes? Miami: We...we have some news for you. Donnie: Oooh! Is it celebrity news? Miami:...sort of. Donnie: I hope it's juicy gossip. Crystal: Believe me--it'll be the talk of the town. Donnie: This town? Crystal: Any town. [ She refills her wine glass first, then prepares two more, never breaking eye contact with donnie; His lighthearted excitement turns to slight confusion, as he furrows his brows,] Miami: (sighs, taking his hand) Here, lets sit down. Donnie: But, the macaroons-- Serra-What? That's what you're making? [Donnie nods.] Serra-...(to the side) maybe we should let him finish the macaroons, first...what if this like, fucks him all up. Miami: No, it's time. I feel like we've already waited too long. Serra-...I feel like he makes really good macaroons. Miami: Yeah? Like grammy-award-winning macaroons? -If by ‘Grammy', you mean my Grandmother would approve… Miami: Your grandmother died of complications from diabetes. Serra-...and you think macaroons had absolutely nothing to do with that? [Crystal has already finished her first glass of wine, and begins to reach for the second glass, when Miami, out of the corner of her eye, catches her, snatching the glass from her gracefully, as she floats it to Donnie, sitting beside him, crossing her legs.] Donnie: Before noon? Crystal- Oh, so you know that rule? Donnie: I know some things. A 20-something's imaginary friend returns, a decade after disappearing, just as she finds herself on the brink of ‘real adulthood', and has settled into the mundane and mediocre—as he leads her on a journey of self-discovery, she internally struggles with whether to tell her therapist—after deciding (or rather, being convinced) she shouldn't, she begins a desperate search for answers in what seems like a downward spiral into A group of friends decide to form their own society after discovering an “uncharted” island—what they don't know [understand] is that the world government is observing at every angle—and as their population increases, they struggle as the popularity of their culture and lifestyle explode— Craig's world- an ensemble about the good old days of craigslist Blue Story A wayward security officer drunkenly fills out an application to join the police academy, and is accepted—both to his surprise, and dismay. #SQUAD OUT!- A Mockumentary-Style Comedy following several “tribes”, “squads”, “rave families”, and even solo-ravers surrounding a large group of ravers and friends. Ū [Amnesia/Working Title] Amnesia [Working Title] Three girls at a camping festival find an incapacitated man in the woods and take him back to their campsite for safety—when one of the girls discovers that she recognizes the mysterious man, actually a headliner at the festival they're attending—two of the girls keep it a secret from their friend who would certainly take advantage of the situation. After discovering a “butt-load” of mind-altering substances on his person, Miami, the ring leader, makes a ‘judgement call' not to call the authorities, deciding instead to attempt to take him back to his trailer—however—when the girls haul him back to his campsite, they discover his manager, Dez, rifling through his belongings. When Samuel awakens, he has no memory of himself—and so a journey begins: a test of friendship, and a race against the clock. Miami (Ami) A fashion designer and music enthusiast who attends festivals in her spare time, seeking inspiration for her fashion and design blog; she shares an apartment with her lesbian best friend from college, who works as a freelance writer and photographer. Crystal (Chrys) A short-haired-yet-feminine gender-non-conforming lovable with a dry sense of humor and an eye for art; Music lover and fan of festivals, Miami's “convert” into the rave world. Shane- A high-matinence instagram model who supports herself through social media promotion and influencing, modeling Miami's fashion line and sugar-babying/arm-candying to make her way through life, usually attending festivals as someone's date or just to take pictures/show face. DONNIE “*giggles* what's a rave?” Miami (takes a deep breath) Crystal (facepalm) Shane (purses her lips) C-Is Giving drugs to somebody with amnesia bad? M-I don't know what's bad for amnesia S-Well maybe, it's not giving it to him that would be bad—like, they were already in his system, probably wouldn't he go like, into withdraw or something. You're probably right S-(I'm probably not) Samuel/Donnie- Sensei Samurai: An award-winning world-renowned music artist and specialty DJ, the soul-headliner of ‘Magic's Mountain art and Music Festival' Daz- Sam/Donnie's Manager- (Antagonist-) Lazers, pyrotechnics, strobes, and confetti light the night sky as Sensei Samurai, a medium-build white guy sporting two long braids and a samurai cut (his signature style), dances atop the table which supports a state-of-the-art DJ set-up; The stage is massive, the crowd is wild--but he is at home--or rather, at work, and at the top of his game. He jumps down from the table, drinking from a red solo cup, before he picks up the microphone to speak to his audience: Samuel: LET ME SEE YOU FUCKING JUMP. He dances around, flailing his arms to gesture to the crowd, drinking again from his red solo cup . He moves to the beat of the music as he focuses to adjust the mixer, structuring a build-up. His manager watches from backstage, carefully eying his every move. Samuel: --ARE YOU GUYS READY? [He lights a ciggarette, sips from his cup again as he continues to mix. He nods along to the beat, grooving as he plots his next move, looking into the crowd with hunger in his eye.] Dez: (speaking into a earpiece) Sammy, take it easy... [He glances stage left, to where Dez is situated and watching him like a hawk; He nonchalantly shrugs, blowing out a plume of smoke into the air, decisively irritated with the instruction.] Dez: (Cont'd): I mean it, chill. [Samuel sticks his finger into his ear, wiggling it profusely--and dislodges the hidden inner-earpiece, eyeing Dez as he pulls up his headphones, deep in the mix; He takes a long drag from his ciggarette, master-minding as he feverously twists the knobs and dials of the mixer.] Samuel (over the mic) NO CHILL MOTHERFUCKERS. [The music speeds as he prepares for the drop.] Dez: (forgetting momentarily that he will not be heard) Sam, don't--! [Too late. Samuel Drops the bass so hard, it hurts, ripping off his headphones and running straight into the crowd, head first to crowd surf. The crowd goes massively, insanely wild.] Through the lens of Crystal's camera, we see a series of still photos, capturing Sam's wild plunge into the crowd, just off-center in the front row. Miami looks to her right, giving her a nod of approval; Crystal shoots her a hand signal for “ok”. Miami looks to her left, lifting an eyebrow and smirking at Serra, who bounces off-beat against a tall wooky gentleman who has his arms around her through the sleeves of a spirit hood, tilting her head from side to side as she poses for selfies. Miami happily sways to the motion of the music, putting one hand over the rail and pulling up her mask with the other, as she watches Samuel be lifted back onto the stage and take his place behind the decks. The set continues, the crowd, the lazers, and the effects go wild: The backdrop reads ‘SENSEI SAMURAI' His backup dancers are acrobatic ninjas. Samuel: Thank you Magical Mountain, I Love You Guys!! The crowd goes wild as Samuel exits the stage, ignoring Dez as he breezes past him. Dez: (following after him) I thought I said, “No more crowd surfing, no more stage diving.” Samuel: I thought you said that, too. Dez: Do you recall “OhMyLanta?” Samuel: (sarcastically) Oh, you mean that festival in Atlanta? Dez: Yes. Samuel: How creative. Dez: ‘Creative' would describe the legal team's very expensive, very strenuous tactical strategy which weaseled you out of a very serious lawsuit. Samuel: Law-Suit? I've never worn one of those. Black-Label? Dez: More like ‘black-book' with your name written on and in it. It took me weeks clean up. Samuel: When was this? Dez: When you decided to stage dive wearing goth-pants and one of your chains got stuck in that kid's earhole. Samuel: They're called ‘Tripp' pants. Dez: Oh yeah...what do you call them after mutilating a teenager with them? Samuel: Tripp pants I can sell on eBay. Dez: You made him a cripple. Samuel: --we still talk. Bass blasts through the christmas-lit forest, a festival set in the meadow against the lush and natural forest scenery; Attendees come-and-go to-and-from the lines of tents and out into the festival grounds, where DJs headline stages, dancers and performers interact with spectators, vendors practice their unique salesmanship, and the wild and true nature of ravers is unleashed. Frozen breath leaks from the laughing mouths of three young individuals, running through the forest; Twigs crush and leaves crackle underfoot of their prancing and galloping feet, clad in combat boots, tennis shoes, and platforms, respectively. Ripped fishnets hug the thighs that sweep together rapidly, swooshing as the legs that bare them race forward; a pashmina trails behind one's back, acting as a cape of sorts. A thud, in the darkness of the forest. Crystal and Shane continue forward, unaware their friend has fallen for a few short moments, leaving Miami behind. Miami confusedly looks for the obstruction which caused her to trip, discovering under a pile of brush and leaves, a man (Samuel) lying face down on the ground; her eyes widen and she draws slightly back, frightened, before squinting and leaning in to get a closer look; She turns on a glow toy for added light, she pants heavily under her breath, shaking slightly as she brushes away debris and leaves, uncovering his head and shoulders, revealing he is wearing a mask. She examines him. His glasses are broken, lying on the ground under his face--His hair is wet; he appears dead. Miami is horrified, speechless, breathless. Crystal: ...I told you not to wear those. Miami: Yo… Crystal: Yo--*gasps* (she grabs Shane by the shoulder, holding her back.) Shane: (She notices the body, under her pashmina, spirit hood, and glasses) Ohwhatthefuck. (she takes a few steps back) Crystal: Don't move. Serra: Yeah, fuck that. Fuck this. (she wraps the pashmina tightly around her face) [muffled] Fuck this. Crystal: ...Ami, we should get out of here. Miami: We should help him. Crystal: He may be beyond help, honey. Shane: He's fucking dead. Whatthefuck. Cystal: ...Is he dead? Miami: (she looks at him closely, there are no signs of life. she checks for breathing with her hand.) ...I don't know. (she checks again, leaning in closer. she grabs his wrist to check a pulse) Shane: Don't touch it! Miami: Shut up, I'm trying to get a pulse (beat) ...he's super cold. Shane: He's super dead! Miam: No, no...I don't think so. Crystal, come here--help me turn him over. Crystal: Are you sure? What if he--wakes up and tries to--?? Miami: (urgently) What if it was you? Crystal fishes for a flashlight and switchblade in her fanny pack, places the flashlight in her mouth and positioning the knife under her kandi cuffs. She cautiously inches forward. Crystal: Shane, try to get some cell service so we can call for help. The girls carefully turn him onto his back, wide eyed and bewildered. He is completely lifeless, clamy and pale--covered with dirt, and forestry. Miami continues to check for a pulse, shaking her head as he continues to appear dead. Crystal: Do you feel anything? Miami: …(shaking her head) I can't...he's like…(as she pulls up the sleeve of his hoodie and notices a familiar tattoo. she pauses for a moment, thinks, and then looks towards his head) Do you still have my mirror in your fanny pack?) Crystal returns to her fanny pack, digging for the mirror. Miami carefuly leans in towards the man, examining him once more; she notices a necklace, also familiar--she thinks, as she moves to remove first the excess hair, and then the mask from his face, very carefully. She peels off his mask, immidiately shocked as she reckognizes his face--It is Samuel, who she knows as Sensai Samurai. She yeeps (imploded gasp, making Crystal look up; she, too recognizes him; she gasps. They look at eachother, then at him--then back to eachother.) Miami: ...Give me your mirror. Crystal: Dude, is this…? Miami: Your mirror. (she holds the mirror under his nose--a subtle cloud of fog appears; he is, in fact, alive.) Crystal: Oh, my God. Miami: He's breathing. Shane! Crystal: ...This is Sensai Samurai. Miami: (trying to convince herself) It probably just looks like him…. Crystal: I just took one-hundred close-up photos, dude--like, less than an hour ago-- Miami: Shhhhh! (she frantically begins to check his pockets) He's gotta have a wallet. Crystal: What, you were going to save him--now you wanna roll him? Miami: An ID. He's got to have an ID. (she frantically searches him) Hey Shane! (Crystal lifts the other sleeve of his sweater, revealing a brightly colored wristband, and one singular kandi bracelet, which reads “Sensai” Simultaneously, Miami has found something in one of the pockets--she produces a small box from one of the pockets of his cargo pants) Crystal: Holy fuck. Look. (she gestures the wrist band and bracelet.) Miami: ...Artist's wristband. Fuck. It is him. Crystal: [Samuel is slumped lifelessly over both Crystal and Miami's shoulders, head hanging downward and hair flailing and dangling in his face as the girls struggle to support him. His oversized light-up sunglasses begin slipping, almost revealing his eyes.] Girl:(looking over, concerned) ...Is your friend okay? [He is clearly not. Serra slides her finger up his nose to adjust his glasses, eyeing the girl suspiciously.] Crystal: [flatly] Yes. [Samuel's dead-weight pulls him towards the ground, as he slips; the girls struggle to readjust; he seems heavier by the minute. They all three stare back at the girl, awkwardly; Miami fakes an ‘everything's fine' smile, while Crystal stares blankly through her sunglasses and Serra shoots a look of dissatisfaction. [INT. KITCHEN. DAY.] The three girls gaze in awe of Donnie, multitasking busily in the kitchen, hair pinned neatly atop his head with chopsticks, wearing a neatly-pressed (as in, freshly ironed) apron, as he removes one baking mit with his mouth and works about, happily consumed and bouncily, humming. -...He's so...domestic. Crystal -You'd think he'd carry a better tune. Miami- Cause you'd be belting melodies after waking up out of a drug-induced coma? Crystal- No--I guess I'd open a bake shop in some random girls' kitchen. Miami: Donnie? Donnie: Hmm, yes? Miami: We...we have some news for you. Donnie: Oooh! Is it celebrity news? Miami:...sort of. Donnie: I hope it's juicy gossip. Crystal: Believe me--it'll be the talk of the town. Donnie: This town? Crystal: Any town. [ She refills her wine glass first, then prepares two more, never breaking eye contact with donnie; His lighthearted excitement turns to slight confusion, as he furrows his brows,] Miami: (sighs, taking his hand) Here, lets sit down. Donnie: But, the macaroons-- Serra-What? That's what you're making? [Donnie nods.] Serra-...(to the side) maybe we should let him finish the macaroons, first...what if this like, fucks him all up. Miami: No, it's time. I feel like we've already waited too long. Serra-...I feel like he makes really good macaroons. Miami: Yeah? Like grammy-award-winning macaroons? -If by ‘Grammy', you mean my Grandmother would approve… Miami: Your grandmother died of complications from diabetes. Serra-...and you think macaroons had absolutely nothing to do with that? [Crystal has already finished her first glass of wine, and begins to reach for the second glass, when Miami, out of the corner of her eye, catches her, snatching the glass from her gracefully, as she floats it to Donnie, sitting beside him, crossing her legs.] Donnie: Before noon? Crystal- Oh, so you know that rule? Donnie: I know some things. Under The Mask —A superstar DJ and his best friend embark on a series of festivals under cover as non-celebrity citizens to first-handedly experience the other side of his world. Grandma's Girl- A funeral turns into an accidentally epic week-long house party, after the ‘favorite grand child' becomes disappointed in the traditional send-off given by the family; While grieving and going through her late-grandmothers belongings, Serra discovers journals and an old phonebook, containing the life and times of her wildly adventurous grandma and her close friends—when she realizes that none of the people from her grandmother's life ‘before the family' are in attendance of her funeral (or even aware of her passing), she links up with her best friends to organize a ‘proper goodbye'. All heaven breaks loose, when ‘ravers of old' begin showing up to pay their respects to Silvia—things get a little out-of-hand when the gathering explodes due-to-word of mouth, as it turns out Grandma Silvia had a few more connections than expected—and they've all come from near-and-far to say their goodbyes. Deathwish—A series about a woman who makes a death wish—but the stakes are raised wen all her wildest dreams come true, and death lurks just around the corner at every turn. ((M3))- A collection of silent films, by SupaCree Enter: World of Music Ascension- Set in a parallel universe, Father TIme and Mother Nature are reconnected on Earth, as the dawn of a new-era arises at the peak of mankind's evolutionary journey. Series is set in a parralell universe, a seperate realm where humans have met faced dark ages, technological or technological setbacks they live harmoniously and peacefully within— live spiritually and intuitively with the planet, and can gain/ strengthen certain abilities through higher learning, strength training, conditionig, and meditation; We begin at the dawn of a new age, where beings ('God Bodies' [working])acended from higher plains of conciousness walk amongst the living in 'humanform', guided and led to higher forms of being through teachings of the Acended sorcerers and masters belonging to the universal collective conciousness of light; Also amongst the living, in 'humanform', Costumes: Modern-Futuristic da ‘Thieo' makes his final wish (for his truest and ever lasting love) to his appointed Acceded Sorcerer; but there are trials he must endure and obstacles to be met before his wish come true— C'Esmett— A warrior princess raised to rule is on on the brink of going rouge, after she is betrayed by her betrothed —her calling to become queen is imminent; yet she must overcome boundaries set by tradition, facing the powers-that-be to strengthen and master her own. Her ancient knowledge, ascended sorcery, and intrinsic healing mysticism— amongst other gifts of nature (a seer, fortune of truths; being of light) “I'm sorry, but it's out of my control.” “NOTHING Is out of your control." "--Except for you." She scorns him, and turns away swiftly, as her cape sweeps across the floor, as it flutters and whips behind her “I'm sorry, but it's out of my control.” “NOTHING Is out of your control." "--Except for you." She scorns him, and turns away swiftly, as her cape sweeps across the floor, as it flutters and whips behind her--she turns again, eyeing him directly, pointing to him with dismay as she takes in a breath; catching herself in anger, she deflates, keeping eye contact (though her gaze suddenly softens as she arrives ‘ACENSION' Ascension- Set in a parallel universe, Father TIme and Mother Nature are reconnected on Earth, as the dawn of a new-era arises at the peak of mankind's evolutionary journey. CHARACTERS Thïeo {Petrutheïo} Godform Spiritclad Cross-Bodied sorcerer; Humanborn earthbound in his most recent incarnation to rule in the new age…(t b c) C'Esmétt {Ch'Esmett X'oxįl Nazari is the most powerful being on planet Earth, and throughout multiple dimensions, through which she presides over, in various forms and figures; She possesses the universe's oldest Soul. a Godform Spiritclad Ascended Sorceress who possesses rare “Creation Energy”—the ability to form and shape matter, bend and travel through time, and control aspects of reality; Youthful and fiery, she is praised as a God of Light; Supporting: Kï'yara—Fireborn, Earthbound Rai'ayn—Loveborn, Multi-Dimentional Onyyxx—Rooted, Tri-Dimentiinal The elements: Love Matter Earth -Of Ground -Of Water -Of Fire -Of Air ...there are more but I'm tired right now. The realms: Now Then (points in the past to which time bending bodies may access) The past (inaccessible points on past timelines to those in human form or bound to earth, besides Godform; even so, the process is strenuous and dangerous. Love Self (to self, to travel inward and reflect a physical presence of the world within, outwardly; true self exists freely and ideally—you are able to converse with self as others see you [appearing as an identical twin with ideal aspects. Light therapy Frequencies Vibrationally energizing Body waves are Paralyzing Lines of Broken harmonies Inside of me. Crying on the clock; Rocking back and forth Stocking full of coal Greetings from the North Pole If Santa Clause is real Maybe we can make a deal; If my heart is made of steel You can't steal it—I can feel it Winter is here The world is money hungry (So am I) The world is simply starving (So am I) The world is so alarming (So am I) The world is just evolving. (So I am.) Cause I've been going crazy Stuck inside myself And I've been feeling lazy Just beside myself And I've been thinking lately That just maybe, someday maybe I'll be It's all connected— The reason we disconnect Is we're neglected I wonder what you'd expect You can't express it Just repress it. Repression syndrome— Came up too fast; Compression syndrome Suck it in Suck it up, You stupid fuck Dive deeper Ū (EP) 1. Thank U 2. I'm Sorry 3. I Love U 4. I miss U I like your vibe Come join my squad Curiosity killed the cat Carbohydrates killed the queen Don't cry “I'll try...” 50 Shades of Blue Don't pick up the phone Don't pick up the phone Don't pick up the phone Don't pick up the phone And here you are: 8 years later, With a baby on your back and— Bills to pay You have to decide (What the fuck) what the world is all about today. Don't want to be Cree For a really long time I just need I just need I just need a whole mind I was me the whole time I never left And yet There I was—looking at myself from above, All the love in the world; Just a lonely little girl Trapped in her Head Never got out of bed, that day: But I went away somewhere, And there I was—looking at myself from above, All the love in the world, Just a lonely little girl Trapped in her Head And I said “why are you waking me up?” But I wasn't asleep— I just wanted to fuck And sometimes, it's too much Too much is, never enough I've never been in love (with me) But I've always been in love (with you) And if you had seen it It wouldn't have been the death of me. Deeper I'll go: Deeper to find How I crossed white lines To become Colorblind How did you find me, here My deer? How did you know Where to go? How did you know, I would Follow you there, Once you finally showed me the road? I've seen both the frog, and the toad; You've already left me exposed, And I'm frozen in time Just to find Just to find Paradise— I tried. But love is a blind bat, Diving into a vat of Darkness; a hat is only a hat, If only there was more— And there is. There always is more— You just have to live more, And once you've been through the cycles, you could be Recycled. Ruined. Rebuilt. Guilt is only ever, Created after pleasure... With immense imploding pressure - [ ] You were born EP-GA [2K19] Mother Earth and Father Time are Making love right By the fire You are motion— I am sickness I am goddess; Be my witness. And I'll probably run for President— Just like I tend to run from everything; not because I want to do it, but because I have to... And just as I run from everything, I run to everything— As is the vicious cycle of life, unrepeated. I should have seen it coming, when he kicked my puppy—I didn't, but my mother did, and it might have been the same day. If not, it was definitely on the same porch—the same porch where...my adolescence began, and ended. There is no cure When your spirit is broken There is no cure—when you suffer in silence There is no cure— When you've seen all the violence It's only you. Breadcrumbs— I'm not dumb, I'm just muted. The dragon I'm chasing is me, And I just... Set the world on fire— I just—need to— I just—adjust. Translucent and transparent I am the thing that happens when you Parent your own parents. And I just I been waking up randomly, Panicking— Wishing I was dancing In the moonlight I'm vanishing without a trace And maybe I just hate this place, Maybe I'm just displaced I hate this I been waking up randomly Filling the void Avoiding my eyes in reflections I fell in love at a festival She came to dance, she was solo oh-oh ...took my hand, sack let's go- oh—oh-oh She didn't care She didn't care I'm a tax write-off I'm a meal ticket I'm a grasshopper; Or maybe, a cricket— Ricochet rabbit Why am I like this? “Why do you fight this?” I was not invited to mingle This ‘tingle' I get is more than A threat—I regretted, The moments I never forget The secrets you keep The stories you never will tell— This is hell, you're not dreaming It's only a nightmare. Too much to think about So I don't Dissociative, I associate everything Within—without I reflect everything I've been about, Stuck beside myself I am just a clone, A lone shadow of my Own All alone, and— I never planned to leave this planet But I have. You're out of my league Out of my league Why can't you see that It's so hard to be Paying the price for this Quarter-life crisis I don't mean to write this So bad, but I can't trust myself anymore I can't trust this world anymore Life is just Too complicated I'm jaded—I'm faded out Phased out, going about in this Town like I'm drowning in Insecurity Or rather, a diamond in the rough I've got enough stuff I just need love. You're out of my league I can see that I can't be that, thing What you want is perfection I just like who you are and thats— Never enough. I have nothing but love to give, love So forgive this: I didn't think I'd live this long But I was wrong And it was longer than I thought Ago Life is just Too complicated I'm jaded—I'm faded out Phased out, going about in this Town like I'm drowning in Insecurity Do you wanna know what it's like to be lonely like me I can tell you better than show you Once I get to know you good luck AMNESIA NOTES Miami Wade Crystal Brooks Donder (Donny) “we'll just call you Donny” “Why?” Uhhh...Because...we found you in the woods. “What?” “You know, like—the wild thornberrys” “Sounds tasty” “Uhhh—wasn't Donny found in the Jungle” “Uhhh—isn't the jungle just a denser version of the woods?” “I guess. It's like an earth-remix” “What's a remix?” Miami wells up—Crystal jumps up excitedly “Awwwwri And I've been stuck on Abbot Kinney, Thinking about Will Rodgers and Thinking that I'm a dodgers fan— But I'm not, I just like crowds. And LA makes me proud Of everything I need to be: And if the world were watching me She'd think she was herself. I was never sleeping, I'm just here And I was never reading, I just Put the bookmark where I left off... I could drift off into, The taste of ink And as it dries in my palm— I know it won't take long until I'm Drifting back into—sifting back into Space—grains of sand. You'll know when you've reached the promised land. Hello, Good Friend: ‘It's time to fall in love...with yourself.' The world has the most to learn from its elders and it's youth—fever disrespect the sometimes even subtle wisdom of a child or your elders. A1 (Lost in the Sauce) Break beats Ruffneck Bass: That's what I like in my face Drop that shit, don't make me wait Make me dance off all this waste I like chocolate, give me cake Wednesday mornin' wake-n-bake Star Jones—Oprah—Ricky lake Which is real and which is fake? Pick the right one, no mistake River—ocean—crater lake “White girl: can I touch your hair? Is it fake??” Out of order— Order steak. [ Sample: The Epic Trip] [interlude- two friends at a festival//a phone call] “Where the fuck are you?” “I can't hear you!” “Hello?” “BRO. Where are you?” “I'm by the—WAIT—hello?!” “WHAT? ” “HELLO?” [the call drops] “Yo. Where the fuck is she?” “I don't know man, probably lost in the sauce...” Sample Lost In The jungle//Kendrick Boo Boo Friends that say that they “gotchu” and then don't Ain't your friends— they're enemies Keep them close Nobody gives a fuck about you— Except you— Remember that. And if you can't remember Make a habit of forgetting Cause you're just another member of society With social anxiety Your sense of propriety Probably shouldn't be Anything I'd give anything Just to take back all my fucks Put them in a bucket, Throw it over my shoulder And wish the world “Good fucking luck” I'm so done with it This is the last chance you get So have fun with it There's no pleasure, no smiles— No love in it I'm just driving for miles Above the shit Transitions- Silent Film/EP Kandi moves to a new city from far, far away—and finds herself lost trying to find her own vibe. ❤️ 1. The Bus Song 2. Pretty Girls (SupaCreeMixx) 3. DOD (Phoenixx remix) “Holy infected fuck!” [thats my vibe right now] North Star After an EMP attack, an unlikely leader becomes a guide to a group of survivors to find the way northward to Alaska. Festival Trip Chava Hoffs- A Voluptuous Dark-Skinned Alaska Native-Black Mixed fashionista who (to her disdain) earns a living as a correctional officer in a juvenile detention facility in Arctic Alaska, daydreaming her long nights away and stacking her money, saving up for an escape to someplace warm and sunny. She is bright and quick-witted, but sometimes awkward—truly a ball of energy, whether good or bad. Sala Emilio (Stax) A tall, olive skinned hottie from Utah of Native American and Mexican decent who works as head chef in a gourmet Chinese food restaurant—a phenomenally functional alcoholic with a free spirit, questionable morals, good values, a loving heart—and a dry sense of humor. Childhood best friends with Chava, I hope you're okay with the character I based off you. I'm not going to copy the story exactly (cause it's a movie, duh) so—I came up with the story that your character runs the kitchen of a classy gourmet 5-Star Chinese restaurant in Utah that has an all-Mexican staff of mostly illegals; my character is a CO at a youth correctional facility in remote Alaska—I felt like those two extremes would play funnier on camera than to replicate our actual situations. I also made them not parents, because I would rather take the whole issue of parenting and raving into a completely separate film idea, I'm thinking of calling it Festival Project A Film Saga by SupaCree Inspired by True Events Festival Trip- Two lifelong friends take a two-week-long trip across the country, to attend two major music festivals—one on the west coast (Among Aliens, in California), and one on the east (Ultimate Music Festival) The Epic Trip – After breaking up with both her ex-fiance and her best friend, a depressed and anxious Chava decides to take a last-minute trip to another one of her bucket list destinations: The Epic Music Festival in Las Vegas, Nevada. F*ckFest: The Origins (Prequel) 21-year-old Chava Hoffs, a longtime raver and lover of all things dance culture, finally convinces her bar-scene best friend to accompany her to a regional event in her area, ‘F*ckfest', Sala's first ever festival/rave where—to both her and Chava's surprise, she connects with other longtime friends she had no idea were immersed into the culture. Sala, having been “rave-retired” since entering her first serious relationship, becomes overly-excited and branches off on her own, reconnecting with her true self after spending too long in her own shell—she discovers her love for an up-and-coming new artist (‘Shluggy') who magnetizes her with a newly-created sound (‘PukeRock'—a play on “VomitStep”) Vibes [Mini Series]- A sequel-in-installments to the shenanigans following F*ckfest, where Chava returns to visit Sala and return to ‘one of her favorite venues', which now hosts Festival Trip II- After reconciling, Chava and Sala unite again to journey to uncharted territories—after Chava is invited along as a journalist to cover artists belonging to an up-and-coming record label based in Alaska, she invites Sala as a tag-along, knowing that her “weird hoe-magic” will attract—as always—even more interesting personalities and circumstances than she could dream to on her own. Chava Hoffs Sala Emillio Gunther Ross- The more than interesting circus-act of a plug/one of Sala's romantic interests, who just happens to be in the same place at the same time, once Sala and Chava arrive in California. Solomon Dominguez- Chava's “homie-lover-friend”, a DC native transplanted to LA who hustles and bustles the 3-job life to live the California dream—a surprisingly dedicated and loyal friend to Chava, who considers him the “king of fuckboys”—which, is not entirely untrue. Johnny McEntire- An eclectic and friendly photographer who stumbles upon Sala during a vulnerable moment—a sweet, humble, and vibrant personality, Chava mostly dismisses him as just another victim of Sala's constantly-inconstant romantic gestures and affiliations. Grace Williams (Chava's Super-Christian (but very sweet) Aunt) Billy Williams- Chava's very dorky, southern Baptist uncle who can't help but throw in a (praise-jesus) Krista DeVaunte- Bride-To-Be—Noah's Fiance Noah Williams- Chava's Cousin, the groom to be Naomi Williams- Chava's salty Cousin, and freinemy since birth—Noah's younger sister Sonny Johnson— Chava's ex-fiance Dustin Roberts—Sala's ex-boyfriend Juan Manuel Jose Melendez Gutierrez-Rodriguez—Sala's current boyfriend, with whom she lives & works with. Running Jokes: Speaking Spanish with a Mandarin-inflenced dialect—speaking/yelling in awful Spanish-soundingMandarin—speaking “Mandarish” or “Spandarin” Every time Chava mentions Sonny (her ex), Sala interjects with “Fuck Sonny!” Cop Jokes (due to Chava's occupation) ACT I- The Wedding Bashers/It's Festival Season “Save-The-Date” Inciting Incident—Plans to attend a destination wedding that Chava and her lifelong long distance best friend Sala, have been planning for almost a year are abruptly halted when Chava learns via a very eventful facetime call (‘Meet The Williams') that her +1 invitation had apparently only applied to her now-ex-fiance [whom her stuck-up family adored because of his abhorrent Christianity], and that the bride-to-be would not allow Sala to take his place on the guest list—as her vivid memories of Sala from Chava's engagement party are severly grotesque. Flashback: Chava + Sonny's engagement party. Chava: Yeah dude, they got all, mad-butthurt that I was bringing you instead of Sonny. Sala: Fuck Sonny! A remote, unnamed city in the Alaskan Arctic Circle. It is severely cold, even visually so. Ch ACT II- Sunny California ACT III- Sunny Florida Excerpt- Festival Trip I As chava blasts away, Sala and Johnny laugh hysterically Sala: Dat ass tho! Their laughter fades in the distance as she speeds up, other onlookers also commenting about her ass, as she blows past a group of men in black, she turns a man's head as she catches his attention. Man: Daaaaaamn. 3.31.19 —Later— The same man from earlier looks out the window of his high rise penthouse suite, across from Chava's hotel—and sees Chava levitating—he pauses, looks around, and raises his eyebrows, drunkenly and assumingly otherwise intoxicated in his appearance. Man: Daaaaamn. Chava is freaking out, remaining motionless as she floats above the bed—she looks out the side of her peripheral, afraid to move—looking up at the ceiling, her eyes widen. She blinks, and takes a deep breath. He questions what he is seeing, as he pours himself a drink. 4.1.2019 As Chava dances through the crowds, she connects and trades Kandi, moving to the beat with intricate motion and flare—people are loving her (a musical dance number)—from backstage, a man pouts and purses his lips, wondering why she is familiar—he is momentarily lost in thought, as he gazes at her and the crowd. Man: (under his breath) Daaamn... Lackey: c'mon man, let's get the fuck out of here Man: But— Lackey: don't worry, you know there's gon' be hoes at the spot. Man: ...but look at her viiibe...and that ass tho—damn! Lackey: eehhhh. You wanna ass, I got a specific folder in my contacts titled “fat ass” with 300 bitches in it— Man: *women* Lackey: whatever—look—I could get you an ass twice as fat, on a dime twice as fine—in 10 minutes flat. Man: (eyes shining, like domo) but look at her aura... Lackey: —I think I got an Aurora in here Man: No, like— Lackey: (pulling at him) let's *go*, the fuck is you trippin..? His eyes won't move away, but he is led by the lackey by his arm, confusededly pouting as he is dragged along. Man: Damn. He feels like he knows her. Cut back to: CHAVA'S ENTRY DANCE scene ACT 1: Wedding Bashers Here we meet Chava Hoffs and Sala Emillio; Two life-long long-distance best friends who love eachother--for the most part--for better or worse. Sala (Pinky) and Chala (The Brain) are planning a tropical mexican vacation to a destination wedding Chava's been invited to as an excuse to celebrate Chava's upcoming birthday (held the same weekend as the wedding) in style--However, when Chava's exclusively classist family alerts her that her plus-one invitation only extended to her on-again-off-again fiance and absolutely excludes Sala, they desperately search for another way to escape their mundane and excruciatingly boring circumstances. Chava internet-searches events around her birthday and finds that there are two music festivals within the same week--running the numbers, she concludes that this alternative plan would actually cost less than the original--”so why not?” The young women keep their escapade-to-be a complete secret, disguising all the preliminary details as “wedding planning” They plan to ‘meet in the middle', Los Angeles being centrally located to both their respective homes. They meet at LAX excitedly and reuinte in happy (and drunken) tears. ACT 2: Sunny California Chava wants to visit old friends and reminisce as a “wannabe tourist” in an all-too-familiar city, which she used to call home--she's built a list of things to do and prepared an itinerary for the week; Sala wants to get riddegy-wrecked sun-up to sundown; Worlds collide as somewhat by-the-book Chava nervously nativages around, typically babysitting Sala and often falling victim to being steered off-course by her shenanigans. Within their first few moments under the California moonlight, Sala's smartphone helps her discover that she has a nearby group of friends--conveniently banded-together by her circus act “master plug”, who is devastatingly in love with her. They spend night one of the first festival tracking him down--Sala finds herself already exhausted by Sala's timing and drunken unsubtlety (“My friend's a COP!”) They finally meet him at the end of the first day, they allow him to tag along--until he becomes almost-suddenly dysfunctionally inebriated and Chava must make a fight-or-flight decision to leave him behind, after he begins drawing attention to their vulnerable crew, and she is approached at random by a mysterious character in a gas station convenience store, where she appears to be the most sober person. On day two, after running at top-speed to catch the shuttle, Sala drunkenly makes friends with a group of young people (fresh out of high school), who to Chava are quite “wookish”, but she plays along anyway. However, by the time they exit the shuttle and Chava has finallybecome comfortable being invited into their squad; Chala decides to ditch them--unknowing that they will re-meet later in the night. Excerpt- Festival Trip I As chava blasts away, Sala and Johnny laugh hysterically Sala: Dat ass tho! Their laughter fades in the distance as she speeds up, other onlookers also commenting about her ass, as she blows past a group of men in black, she turns a man's head as she catches his attention. Man: Daaaaaamn. 3.31.19 —Later— The same man from earlier looks out the window of his high rise penthouse suite, across from Chava's hotel—and sees Chava levitating—he pauses, looks around, and raises his eyebrows, drunkenly and assumingly otherwise intoxicated in his appearance. Man: Daaaaamn. Chava is freaking out, remaining motionless as she floats above the bed—she looks out the side of her peripheral, afraid to move—looking up at the ceiling, her eyes widen. She blinks, and takes a deep breath. He questions what he is seeing, as he pours himself a drink. 4.1.2019 As Chava dances through the crowds, she connects and trades Kandi, moving to the beat with intricate motion and flare—people are loving her (a musical dance number)—from backstage, a man pouts and purses his lips, wondering why she is familiar—he is momentarily lost in thought, as he gazes at her and the crowd. Man: (under his breath) Daaamn... Lackey: c'mon man, let's get the fuck out of here Man: But— Lackey: don't worry, you know there's gon' be hoes at the spot. Man: ...but look at her viiibe...and that ass tho—damn! Lackey: eehhhh. You wanna ass, I got a specific folder in m

This week we're exploring the fascinating and controversial topic of flat earth theory....again. This ancient belief, once relegated to the fringes of society, has seen a resurgence in recent years thanks to the power of the internet and social media. On this episode, we'll take a deep dive into the history of the flat earth movement and examine the arguments made by its supporters.  We'll explore the evidence (or lack thereof) supporting the idea that the earth is not a globe, but rather a flat, disc-shaped plane. Whether you're a believer or a skeptic, you won't want to miss this revisit. Join us as we challenge our assumptions about the world around us and explore the flat earth phenomenon. Did we change our minds? *Intro sound clip features comedian Dan Cummins If you have any questions or topics you'd like to see the society cover, please reach out at Contact@hushhushsociety.com   You can find all our audio, blogs and drop sweet ratings at www.hushhushsociety.com Find our Video Content on our Rokfin Leave us a review on Apple, our website, Podchaser or GoodPods You can grab Hush Hush merch and help support the show on Patreon Link up with the society on social media:   Facebook   Instagram   Twitter    Join our Discord and chat with us   TRANSCRIPT Flat Earth 2   [00:01:00]  Dave: Greetings, Hushlings. Welcome back to the Hush Hush Society Conspiracy Hour. Mike: Where we journey into the world of conspiratorial mysteries and dark truths Dave: I'm Declassified Dave Mike: and I'm Mystery Mike and as though is we're joined by our fellow globetard Slick Fronk Sanders. Fronk: The Earth is probably round how you doing? Dave: it's going. Are things going around today? Mike: Quick question flat Earthers. How do boomerangs work on your flat plane? Fronk: Boomerangs are flat.  Dave: that got him. If you didn't notice today, we returned to the great debate in this episode. Is the Earth round? Is the Earth flat? Fronk: Hushling's, uh, in case you weren't [00:02:00] aware, we visited this topic in season three and completely shat all over the flat plane and we believe we should revisit this mother of all modern conspiracies, seeing as though it's such a big part of conspiracy culture. Dave: it's getting even bigger, even though you guys probably most definitely are gonna take a second dumping in this one. Mike: not as bad as the first. Dave: Not  Fronk: Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Mike: we've discussed how there are different phases to being a flat earther. I'm guess I'm still in stage zero and we were in stage one in May of 2021. let's go up around to stage two But before we search for the horizon and fall off the flat plane and search for God in the sky under the spotlight sun, you can always find us on our social medias, Facebook, [00:03:00] Instagram, and Twitter Dave: You can also find everything hush hush society on our website, www.hushhushsociety.com. From episodes to links to merchandise, and the ability to drop a review or leave us a voicemail. We hope we get some after this episode. Mike: Hmm. Please do. Dave: Yeah. Fronk: And we keep mentioning that we are now also a video podcast. You can not only. To us, but you can watch us, you can see our faces. You can get that expressional action that you might not get from just an audio recording. And to find those episodes, you just gotta go to Rock Fin. It's, it's very simple. Rock fin.com. There's even an app. And in the search bar you just put in Hush Hush Society. You'll find us nice and easy. And there you can find all of our videos. you hit the notification button. You get notifications when our videos come out. Check it out. Mike: And just one last thing before we move on to the flat plane, we just [00:04:00] want to give a quick shout out to our newest patron, Gabrielle May. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. Fronk: Just in case you're new to this, we're gonna do a quick little recap for you on what Flat Earth theory is, and essentially, in a nutshell, the earth is flat rather than round. Pretty self explanatory, although it's made its appearance throughout history. The theory gained popularity around 2009 and has continued to grow ever since. Dave: It is regarded as one of the most controversial conspiracy theories in existence. Why claim that our earth is flat and not a globe easy? That's because it looks flat and feels flat and is surrounded by 200 feet of ice blocking us from traversing across an infinite plane or falling off the edge. Sounds correct, right? Fronk: I mean, yeah, that's what I've been made to believe. That's that's what it seems like Mike: Yeah. Riding on the back of a turtle through the cosmos, but the cosmos [00:05:00] doesn't exist, so where's the turtle going? Anyways,  according to believers, NASA and the ruling elite protect the ice walls from people attempting to climb over and fall from the disc. Can't make it up. They also believe that earth's gravity is an illusion, and that objects are driven up by a mysterious force called dark energy, rather than spinning and being stuck to a surface, Fronk: But on the other hand, there are countless photographs, videos, and images from astronauts and the International Space Station that kind of seem like evidence to show that the Earth is round. But these are not considered real evidence and are allegedly faked by the government or the ruling elites Dave: Now before we move on, flat, earthers already pissed off at our description in the beginning, Fronk: probably. Dave: we wanted to pull you in, but we'll make it as [00:06:00] fair as possible with some of the talking points that we're going to go over.  Now, Hushlings, there is the flat Earth Society as well as thousands of others from around the globe in groups. In addition to independent researchers, even though there is evidence to contradict some of these arguments, they are dismissed as fabrications of around earth conspiracy, along with stars, planets, galaxies, space, and gravity, all being a part of the facade of where we live. Mike: That is my biggest thing when it comes down to a debate between a flat earth and someone who believes that we live on a globe, is that it always results. In a flat earth are saying, well, that's what you've been told. You've been lied to. You're believing a lie that's being told to you, which is the old faithful of all conspiracy theorists, is that you're being lied to. That's all well and good, but at what point do you turn around and say, the [00:07:00] science is being lied to you. Nasa, we know lies to us. We know they fabricate images. We know what they do. But again, that's more of an argument that NASA is filled with bunch of liars. But at what point do you look at it maybe there is evidence that it's a globe or maybe there is evidence that it's a flat plane. There has to be a certain cutoff point where you stop saying, well, you're being lied to. That's what they want you to believe. That's what they're fabricating the science. They're fabricating this. They're fabricating that. How, and this has always been my issue, how do you talk to a flat earth and say, what piece of evidence would it take for you to say that it's a globe Dave: Pictures. Mike: pictures? , but then you show them a picture of this is what our earth looks like. It's a globe. Or you show them video or you show them anything. Well, that's been fabricated. It's always like this deniability to go against what they believe in. Like you, you have to deny [00:08:00] it. You have to deny it because it shakes the entire foundation of what their belief system is, especially when it comes to a flat earth. But then they always revert back to, that's what the Bible says. That's what the Bible says. I'm sorry, we, we've been over the Bible many times. We all know that it's been changed a thousand times and it's a book.  Fronk: not only that, but that's what they're making the Bible say. That's what certain people are interpreting the bible to say, and you can make the Bible say a lot of different things depending on how you decide to interpret it as a person. And if you're interpreting it as, they're telling me about the flat earth and so be it, Dave: This episode is gonna focus a little bit more heavily on some of the things that Mike and Fronk just mentioned, talking about NASA and the why would they lie and why would they fake and indoctrinated us as kids to believe that it's a ball. , and these are major [00:09:00] talking points that I've learned over the last year and a half since we've done this, other than just the physical evidence. We have the physical evidence if you're going to go by the, mainstream. we'll go through a bunch of stuff. I think we'll talk about religion too. So Mike, save those nails, buddy. Mike: We'll look into some of what we just listed and more throughout this episode, and it strongly suggested you listen to our first crack at this crust to understand where some of the historical beliefs come from and a lot of other things about this theory, mainly the science. But let's give this another oscillation, shall we? We're gonna literally hit some of the proposed theories and then firmly spit some facts. be prepared to, uh, confirm or deny your belief. Fronk: Before we completely dive into the flat plane, we're gonna talk about the planet as we've been taught in a traditional sense. Our Native [00:10:00] Earth is a terrestrial rocky planet, correct? Yes or no? I mean, whether it's flat around truth,  It has a dynamic and active surface with mountains, valley, canyons, you name it. All the different geographical structures and a variety of other features. It has water covering 70% of its surface, as well as harboring thousands of life forms, and it has a unique orbiting satellite arm. Dave: it has a circumference. Remember this number Hushlings 24,901 miles. And it shares our solar system with eight, sorry, Pluto, eight other planets and is rotating at around thousand miles an hour while orbiting our home star. Now this is where flat Earthers start to deny our existence on a spinning ball. we're orbiting around our sun at 67,000 miles an hour, all while zipping around the center of the Milky Way, roughly at [00:11:00] around 490,000 miles an hour. And the biggest claim, you can't feel it.   Mike: Well, that's just what we're taught in school. Unfortunately, most of us didn't escape the clutches of the Rockefeller Education System. There's that name again. Yep. He created the General Education Board in 1902 at the cost of 129 million. It's a lot of money back in 1902. It's a lot of money today and provided major funding for schools across the nation and was very influential in shaping the school system. Also, he's quoted as saying, I don't want a nation of thinkers. I want a nation of workers. Sounds like my pause. Fronk: And that speaks some deep truth because school does indoctrinate the nation into the trap of society. Once you hit like 10th grade, you're already filling out college applications, colleges that you're gonna be in debt to for the rest of your life, that you're gonna have to work for the majority of [00:12:00] your life to pay off for that job that you'll be working for the rest of your life. And it's this endless cycle. So that's definitely perpetuated by some global elitist. I get that to an extent, maybe the indoctrination portion of it. Dave: Well, from the beginning. Which classroom have you ever been in that didn't have a globe?    Fronk: In 1928, John D Rockefeller Jr. Financed an expedition to the South Pole as a British secret service. Agent Rockefeller knew perfectly that no South Pole existed, but people were curious about the true shape of the world. From 1956 onward, Antarctica was completely controlled by the Pentagon. Hence the Antarctic Treaty. And anybody visiting this chunk of land without permission was shot on site. Admiral by who we've talked about extensively, died mysteriously in 1957 and perhaps had a timely demise before he could tell the truth about what the South Pole. Mike: When it comes to the[00:13:00] Antarctic treaty and being shot on sight, who is shooting these people on sight? Fronk: Snow snipers. Those drones from Star Wars that landed on Hoth Mike: , that's a lot of land to patrol in order to watch for people.  Dave: remember. Antarctica is 5.2 million square miles as well. Mike: That's what doesn't make sense to me. You're gonna be shot on sight and that's another part of the Antarctic treaty that I also don't understand. Who is physically stopping you from going there? The only thing that's physically stopping you from going to Antarctica is it costs a lot of money. To either charter a boat that would go there. most people don't go there. Most charter boats don't go there. You could do a flyover, but that's only partial. Who is physically stopping you besides your bank account? Dave: I did see a video recently of some guys on a boat that were stopped. I think they were stopped by the New Zealand Navy [00:14:00] or the Australian Navy, and they were turning him around and you can see like. Ice in the distance or something like that. And I don't know if there was just like an iceberg that was out there that they were near, but the allegations on TikTok was got turned around at the bottom of the world, cause I believe it's, there's some degree, and I'm gonna sound uneducated saying this, but I don't know the degree, I think, but there's some degree at the bottom of the world. That you can't go. But the Antarctic treaty, it contradicts itself because the Antarctic treaty was supposed to be a demilitarized zone. No military stuff. No commercial, nothing. It was supposed to be strictly for research. Fronk: So why is the Navy there? Of who? New Zealand? Dave: It was either New Zealand or Australia Fronk: So what is the New Zealand or Australian Navy doing there? Dave: Well, they're close to Antarctica Fronk: Yeah, but isn't a non-military zone. Dave: But there's only military scientists maybe not all military scientists. You got like, Noah [00:15:00] scientists and stuff, and I'm sure NASA is down there, the Nazis, they're all down there. You know, you  got everybody. Antarctica looks like a continent to me, and there's a lot of pictures of it. And are they fake? I am. I'm not on the plane, so I don't know. . Why would it matter and why would they lie? The largest argument of why these elites would lie to us is most likely there's more land, more resources, maybe even unlimited resource. And lands beyond the ice shelf or walls, as well as the suppression of how powerful of beings we are, which can kind of be a different argument that has nothing to do with flat earth as well. thoughts on that? Fronk: I could get behind both of those points to an extent in the shoes of a flat Earth, for example. Yes. If you told me that there was unlimited resources, we're talking oil, we're talking the purest water in the world. We're talking minerals that are used to power the world's [00:16:00] electronics, whatever, energy generating methods that we might have unlimited supply of that which would completely destroy not only the US dollar, but the world economy, which is what the alleged elites thrive off of. And if it's not money that they thrive off of it is leaching our fucking energy. And we've talked about that a lot. And if we were to unlock some sort of crazy. Secret about ourselves or humanity as a whole. That might be incredibly enlightening to a lot of people or disturbing. I could see it going either way, but if, if a bunch of people woke up and they were incredibly enlightened, that could be bad for the reptilian negative energy blood suckers. Dave: I don't think it would go well for anybody. I think we always do ask this question a lot when we talk about this as is, would it change our everyday lives? And we usually say no, but it would, because we [00:17:00] probably have a massive economic shutdown. religions would collapse. There'd probably be some type of total anarchy that would happen and then we'd have our own epiphanies of being like, not really upset that I was wrong, but shit I was lied to as well, part of the Doy group. And that would be a shitty day. would it end everything for me? No, it would change everything for sure. But I think the unlimited resources part, I could see somebody hiding that, , we did talk about Admiral Byrd and Admiral Byrd went through, supposedly into the hollow earth, could he have misinterpreted and gone through a crack and found more land. Who knows? In the writing The Iron Republic, written by EW Barrington and published also in 1902, another one of that year with the education system. It was published in Florida Magazine, and it said that an explorer went through a crack in the ice walls and found an advanced civilization after being lost for over a month at sea. So that [00:18:00] means he went through the ice walls and there was more ocean,  Mike: Have there ever been any, any pictures or video of the ice wall or beyond it? Fronk: Uh, people take pictures of. Ice shelves and try to say that they're the ice walls, but at the same time, those could very well just be ice shelves or very large icebergs Mike: Makes sense. Makes sense.  Dave: I wanna see a flight going around the whole whatever, 76,000 miles it's supposed to actually be. Just banking around the whole rim. But you can't go there because the military will shoot you down in a de militarized. Mike: I still think that there's plenty of ways to get there. And we talked, who do we talk with? That had went to Antarctica? Was it Mark Fronk: on a cruise with like their father. Yeah. Mark O'Connell. Yeah. Dave: Yep. Mike: O'Connell said that , he went to Antarctica with his family. Dave: San Diego Padre's pitcher's there right now.  Fronk: Yeah, but he, he also mentioned that it was like the only [00:19:00] part of Antarctica that they'll let a civilian on and it's like this tiny little peninsula and they've got the little, novelty pole.  Like you could go up and touch it and take a picture with it. Yeah. And they got little stuff, penguins and shit. Dave: could it just be a simple explanation why we don't bring people there? One, you'll die  Fronk: , yes, it's very extreme terrain, there's tons of extreme terrain that we're allowed to go to that you would probably die in if you weren't very well equipped. Mike: Yeah, it makes sense that the only reason that they would be stopping people from going there, besides the massive, endless amounts of resources that they're hoarding from us, would be that they just don't want people going out there and fucking dying.  This brings up another allegation that even the word extraterrestrial means extra terra or more land. Trying to hold some weight to the notion this has been taught to us. We see in the film The Next Level by David Weiss. [00:20:00] He meets with an older woman named Ruth. She's 102, God bless her, from Connecticut, who was in tears claiming that she was taught flat Earth in school, in Hamden, Connecticut, and now feels vindicated and better because of his truths. Dave: she was like, lost it. Mike: like real, real emotional about it. Dave: Yeah. Really emotional about it Mike: Okay. We just mentioned the Rockefeller education system and him saying that he doesn't want a nation of thinkers. He wants a nation of workers. , in the 1920s, if she was taught that the earth was flat, She would've been learning from that education system. Dave: True. Yeah, but I don't think that there's actually, I've looked and looked and looked and couldn't find any definitive evidence that was saying that they actually taught that in schools. Because even in 2022 curriculums across the country are not the same, even across the [00:21:00] same states, depending on the size of your state, they're not the same, especially when you get to advanced levels like college professors are teaching what they want within that curriculum, How in 1920 were they all taught the same thing when there was still tons and tons and tons, tons of schools. , that's the thing that gets me,  she's 102. Could she have just been like, yeah, I saw that once and she saw it on a cartoon in the seventies while she was in her sixties,  Fronk: nonetheless, I do find it difficult to wrap my head around because it was David Weiss who did that interview or whatever, and he brings up a lot of stuff about flat Earth. I listen to a bunch of his talks and shows that he went on to and whatnot, and he brings up all of these points and , he tells people to just, look into it. You gotta look into it yourself. You gotta do your research. , you go to do this research and obviously if you're looking into stuff like this, you're not going to [00:22:00] Google. You're not using Bing, like the go to search engine for anything that you can't find is duck, duck go. And he's been saying that Duck, duck go is starting to censor things of this nature. So, like Dave, I went looking for what the global education was like in the 1910s, the 1920s, and. Again, like you said, no definitive proof. Is it a censorship thing or is it the fact that it was just not taught as flat in the 1920s? Dave: There's also allegations that say that, it was the thirties and even in the sixties through certain education systems. , I almost bought David Weiss's app now. David had contacted us and let us know how he thought about us. I think in the next level, , it almost looks like somebody's trying to sell something and maybe this woman really did feel vindicated Ruth if she's still alive or not. but I don't know, check out the next level. It's an interesting take on flat earth and [00:23:00] there's a bunch of other proponents that I'd never even heard of that have some interesting talking points. Mike: my beef when it comes to David is he did reach out to us. He reached out to us a couple times, especially after our flat Earth episode. And essentially just berated us through email it's the usual argument that I, especially for some odd reason am on the receiving end of arguments with flat earthers is just yelling and anger and just being pissed off consistently. and he was not too happy, as Dave said with how we covered it in our talking points. He said, oh, it's the same talking points. Well, it's the same talking points with flat Earthers too. you talk about the Bible, you talk about nasa, you talk about, it's like, it's, it's the same talking points because we're talking about the same fucking topic.  Of course we're gonna have our sides to it and of, and flat earthers are gonna have their sides to it. It's just the way that it is. That's how you have constructive. [00:24:00] Conversations that go back and forth with conflicting beliefs. Dave: I feel like it's a lot of frustration that , you're just not getting it. Fronk: I feel like he rails Coke and like smashes Globes in his free time, like buys globes from Goodwill and just fucking destroys them in the parking lot and then drives home  Dave: beats them with Louisville slugs. Just smack. Smack.  Mike: I can't wait for our next email correspondence after this one. Fronk: dude. It's not gonna be an email. It's gonna be a voice message and he is gonna be all fucking jacked up out of his mind.    Dave: Before we move on to like the major talking points we gotta talk about what Mike mentioned earlier where a lot of the stuff that is talked about goes back to biblical cosmology and creationism.  Mike: Yeah. And that's always been my biggest talking point with discussions with flat Earthers is explain it to me I will give you my counterpoints and you'll give me your points and we can go [00:25:00] back and forth, but complete your, persuasion of trying to make me see that it's a flat plane. Complete your argument without using the Bible. Every single fucking time. Every single time it ends in, well, it says this in the Bible and it says this, it always ends up being that let's put it this way. I've never met a flat earth that wasn't also at the same time a Bible thumper. Dave: I've met two types. I feel like there are conflicting points to, flat earthers even they step on each other's toes a little bit. They might not, not get along, but I think there are some folks that definitely don't believe in the biblical cosmology and it's just a physical thing. But every time you go back to, if it's a physical thing, that's a structure that's not a planet. It brings me to the question, even a non-religious person. It brings me to the question, well then we're talking about who created it, [00:26:00] not just the science of planets and, gas and particles coming together for, from a accretion. We're talking a whole different thing. Now. We're talking about, well, if it's a structure , and this is not what we think it is and this is not what I think it is, then it had to have been manufactured structure. We build structures. using that type of verbiage, brings even me to being like, , now we're in the religious realm or the faith realm. Fronk: You want me to blow your mind right now? you know what's easier than creating a whole universe writing fucking lines of code. Bam, bam.  Mike: Yeah, there it is. There it is. We should just bring all arguments of flat earth back to simulation theory. Fronk: That's where I, that, yeah. Prove to me that it's even physical and then maybe I'll consider whether, the shape is round or flat. Dave: Let's talk about curves. Fronk: Right. All right. Let's talk about the voluminous crevices and curves that our mother Earth provides. Right. The idea of a flat [00:27:00] earth stems from a number of viewpoints, and the most fundamental is to rely on one's own sense, to determine the true nature of one's surroundings. The world appears flat. Clouds, bottoms look like they're flat. Water looks like it's flat, and the sun moves. The stars are always the same positioned exactly how they always were, and all of these sensory cues indicate that we do, in fact, live on a flat. Dave: I'm not an astrophysicist and I'm not a  Fronk: Are you  sure?  Dave: Maybe, maybe, maybe in my other existence, the 500 of 'em. I'm a failed astrophysicist, but I do have a telescope and I've had it for quite some time and I'm pretty good with it. And it's Fronk: the fuck? Dave: eh, the stars not moving. I know that there's a difference between absolute, uh, motion. A difference between [00:28:00] relative motion, and I'm pretty sure that the way that the stars move, but their whole argument is, is that since everything's spinning at astronomical speeds every night, we would see different stars because we're just whipping around and seeing different things. So why are the stars the same? And it does get you thinking, well, why are the stars the same? Well, I'm not a professional astronomer, so I can't really explain that. But I would say it has something to do with relative motion where everything's moving in conjunction instead of just this vortex of insane speeds..  Fronk: In my peanut globetard brain, I'm more so thinking the speed of light and how long it actually takes for the light from the stars that we're seeing to travel here. I mean, yeah, we've been seeing the same stars for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, but at what point were those stars emitting that light? How long have those stars been dead for, and how long is it gonna take for us to see new stars again? [00:29:00] I can't answer any of those questions for you, but I'm pretty sure that's. Dave: Valid point. Mike: Also in the grand scheme of time, humanity has been around a fucking blink in universal time. again to Fronk's point here, we're seeing the same stars because we're living 80 years and that's it. As opposed to the billions and billions and billions of years that the universe has existed and that that light has traveled and those stars have either been born, exploded, died, and disappeared. , we're seeing nothing, nothing. Dave: Well, that goes back to you being an insignificant being and that being suppressed. There's that argument. We'll have that later. We'll fight about it. Mike: there, there won't be an argument. We are insignificant beings.  Even if you took it back to a creationist argument, we are fucking insignificant. We are insignificant, we're [00:30:00] nothing. If we were something we would still commune with Gods, we would still commune with universal spirits. We would be. Something more than fucking meat sacks traveling through the world going, oh, I wonder what job I'm gonna have next, that I'm gonna work fucking 40 hours a week at and pull in a menial salary and take care of my 5.2 fucking kids, and then eventually retire at the ripe old age of 70 years old. And that's my life. How special am I Dave: Well, that's the system that you're locked in. Mike: system or not? Even if I had no job, even if I was just wandering, enjoying my life, going to these wonderful, exotic places, just doing everything that I wanted to do. At the end of it all 70 to 80 years, that's what I get. That's fucking it. in those 70 to 80 years, when am I seeing God? When am I [00:31:00] seeing a hint of any extraterrestrial, any, any extra dimensional, any religious, fucking spiritual guide? Anything. Anything.  when I'm not, fucked up on drugs, Dave: psychedelics. Fronk: God tier moment. Mike goes, have you ever given an ant food? Throw that bitch in there.  Dave: A lot of people see that as negative, and I don't really see it as negative that we're that insignificant. It's kind of the same argument that I make about the flight paths, which we'll quickly touch on is, well, the, the plane has to keep dipping down to keep going. Have you seen how small a plane is to how big the earth is? Mike: That's one thing that they don't understand is fucking perspective. You don't understand  perspective.  Dave: I'm glad you brought that up because what Frankie said a couple minutes ago about viewpoints perspective, seeing, if the clouds appear flat, water is flat, that's called using an empirical approach or an approach that relies on information [00:32:00] on your senses.  What's your feeble little human garbage eyes can see? And if you can't see the curve, then it doesn't exist. They use mathematics. I am. Stupid with math. The math is if the earth is round, there should be a degree of curvature, eight inches per mile squared. one mile would be eight inches, two miles, 32 inches, three miles, 72 inches, four miles, 128, and so on.  128 inches is about 10 feet of curvature. So that would be, four miles away now? 10 feet. A considerable amount when you're looking at a boat on. Water the water line to the top, say, let's say an aircraft carrier is probably 60 to 90 feet. You'd have to be at least around 20 miles to not just see the flight deck of that ship going over the horizon.  Then you got the whole, you got the bridge, you got everything else. You got all the radar you're probably looking at 120 feet at least to the top of, all of the structures on that ship. How many miles is that? . That's the thing. Another thing with the insignificance is [00:33:00] that we're tiny as fuck. Like how can we see anything? If you're five foot 10 and you're looking at something how far are you actually gonna see Mike: but what about the Zoom, Dave? What about the Zoom? Some of those cameras, they can zoom way, way, way, way in. They take those cameras and they zoom, zoom, zoom, and they go, well, that city is 150 miles away. There's no way that I should see it because of this curvature. And this camera is picking it up perfectly. So how do they work? Dave: I think they use the Chicago skyline for example. And I didn't do the experiment and look on Google Maps , and see the different distances, but you gotta remember the Sears Tower, whatever the fuck it's called now, it's like well over a thousand feet tall. and they're like, well, you can see the whole thing you. In those pictures that are shown as examples, you cannot see the entire Sears Tower. There is hundreds of feet of displacement in Chicago. Like New York has a [00:34:00] very tall fucking skyline. But you could still see those buildings and they're there, and on top of it, you're getting atmospheric disturbance. You're getting a layer of almost a mirage layer.  Mike: Dave was just going over the math of the entire situation, it's 67 feet per 10 miles. Now, before we move on, we have to mention that there are ball earthers or globes or globe tards that do argue that this equation is misused by flat earthers. And is the equation of calculating a parabola, not a full sphere. Dave: The guy who said that this is Misused was something that was found on the Michael Stata podcast and apparently himself and another guy that were on there, one was like an F 18 pilot, and then he's got certain hundreds and hundreds amount of hours as being a pilot. he had mentioned that the equation was misused and used the parabola as an example, that you're talking [00:35:00] about something like this instead of something that's a full circle even if you're talking about it on the curve, , it's still a parabola, even on that surface. Even though the equations are right and the math is right to calculate the curvature of the earth with its circumference that's known.  Might not be accurate. And uh, who did that? Aristophenes did that. And I know Flat Earthers is gonna say that guy didn't even fucking exist. which maybe he did, maybe he didn't. That was 2000 years ago. Who knows? Fronk: just to be fair to the flat earthers, right? We can't nitpick what false history we believe and don't, we do tend to say that history could have been falsified many times. If history has been erased at any point in time there is the possibility that this dude was made. Mike: using this model, a person standing on a spherical surface with eyes five feet, 11 inches above the ground, can [00:36:00] hypothetically see the ground up to about three miles away, but a person at the top of the Eiffel Tower at 896 feet can see the ground up to 36.6 miles away. Dave: Well, they're higher in altitude, Mike: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.  Dave: but the argument is that you can't see using the calculation, you wouldn't be able to see because it's dipping. I think the argument is wrong, and I'm not a mathematician and I'm not good at math, but from what my I see is that almost like some of these people are seeing it smaller than what it is. I don't think they're really getting how big this thing is and how small we are. So even at a 900 feet, Yes, you can see almost 10 times as much in distance, but you're also almost a thousand feet in the air,  Mike: Again,  perspective.   Fronk: If the degree of the [00:37:00] curvature is found to be the same everywhere on earth's surface, and the surface is in fact large enough, the constant curvature demonstrates that the earth is a. Now what about water? James Underdown, executive Director for the Center for Inquiry, Los Angeles worked with the Independent Investigations Group, a nonprofit dedicated to investigating exceptional claims using scientific methods. A boat based target with horizontal stripes was used in one of these tests. Dave: He's quoted as saying we sent a boat out on the water, and the farther it goes, the more the stripes disappear. That was supposed to demonstrate the curvature of the planet, but most flat earthers disagreed generating considerable debate. The biggest reason for these arguments with flat earth, obviously it comes from flat Earth, Dave(David Weiss), and it's all about perspective, as we said. The ground would never obscure distant objects on a flat earth. It should be possible to see all the way to the edge of the [00:38:00] world, right? That is the question that we would be asking. The answer we get is the atmosphere is opaque. Now, using the vernacular atmosphere is almost a conundrum in itself, and you ask, well, why did you use that? Well, we don't have another word for it.  Mike: Why not just make up a word like you fucking make up your own beliefs?  Just fucking do it. Just do it. . Make up a new word. It's very easy. It's done every day.   [00:39:00] Ad break [00:40:00]    Mike: Let's move on to another major fight in this, the position of the sun, sunrise and sunset. In case you were wondering, the sun is always above the Earth's surface in both models, Yet in the flat model, it travels in circles around the Earth's north pole, which is also, its. The seasons are caused by the expansion [00:41:00] and contraction of these circles. What about latitude?  Dave: What about latitude? I mean,  that would  Mike: about latitude  Dave: right? Mike: Hmm. Dave: The largest circumference of latitude on this planet would be the equator. Correct?  Mike: Yep. Dave: And then you have the tropic cancer and the tropic of Capricorn. The midpoints. I don't know that seems pretty, easy to explain. Maybe I'm just stupid. Could  be,  Mike: Globetard Dave: yeah. Fronk: Fucking idiot. Do some research Mike: Look into it. Fronk: where, show me where, show me where I could read about this that isn't on the app.  Mike: In the Bible, Fronk: Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Here we go with the fucking Bible again. Mike: and books from the  17 hundreds  Fronk: They considered the sun to be much closer than 93 million miles and possibly even as far as 3000 miles or as close as 300 miles and moves in a circle or a helix pattern because the earth is supposedly accelerating upward, obviously toward the sun [00:42:00] at 9.8 meters per second because they don't believe in gravity, and that explains gravity away. with that being said, the sun must also be accelerating in the same direction as this hypothetical earth vortex. Make sense? You guys got that? Dave: instead of us spinning with things spinning around us and us spinning around something else and then that spinning around something else, which is relative there's a really big graphic that's always shown on every documentary, every video, and it's like the sun being shot out of a. With everything else just like around it, it looks like a DNA strand, most globe tards, know that that's not how motion works with celestial bodies. that one got me and always gets me, is every time that's shown. I'm like, oh God.  Fronk: other astronomical bodies moving in such a pattern? We have like really high powered telescopes Mike: Because space is not real.  Fronk: [00:43:00] Oh, shit. I forgot. I'm, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You got me.  Okay. All right. All right. Right. All right. Dave: no space. No space. We have to remember that throughout this whole episode, there's no space. Fronk: Yes. Yes. Mike: if you take space out of the equation, introduce God in the Bible, and just ignore all known fucking science for the past like 300 years, you can be a flat earther. Fronk: wait is it no space or it's just the sun and the moon and the earth, or , is it None of that and it's just plain earth with our spinning moon, sun clock sort of thing happening, Which one is it? Do flat earthers believe either the barrel bore theory or the plate theory? Dave: Everything's contained in a system. Fronk: It's one in the same Dave: and everything above us is, I guess, the abyss, because there's a lot of arguments that, like with this Artemis program, whether it's fake or not, we'll talk about NASA in a little bit, but whether it's fake or not, Rockets [00:44:00] don't work in a vacuum apparently. but they're actually using, their own inertia to move in a vacuum. But I guess things don't work that way according to some. That brings us to sunrise and sunset. I don't want to get too far into this cuz this can take hours and hours and hours to argue about, let's talk about sunrise and sunset real quick.  Fronk: Unlike a bunch of these other points, the day and night cycles are actually kind of easily explained on a flat plane. The sun theoretically would move in circles above the North Pole. Or around the North Pole, and when it's over your head, it's day, and when it's not, it's nighttime. The light of the sun is then confined to a limited area on the earth, right? Because it's right above you. This claim never held any weight for me in particular because it can be debunked with science.  On top of this, all of the planets and stars aren't actually what they appear to be like [00:45:00] big rock balls in space or giant balls of gas, but they're actually luminaries. Yet. We also hear a lot of people say, well, we don't know what they. Dave: Stars and planets are one of the biggest things that cannot be explained yet. We can explain them with telescopes. We've been talking a lot about movement. We have to talk about heliocentric model, which is the one that we supposedly live in and not the geocentric model, which is the one that flat earthers live in. When we are confronted with the question of how the earth is able to orbit the sun, and it's not a sphere it's pretty simple. The earth actually doesn't orbit the sun, as we've been saying. This is so, because instead of the sun being the center of our solar system, our planet is actually the center of our solar system or controlled environment. Mike: In reality, we have Helio Centrism, also known as the Heliocentric Model. It's the astronomical model in which the earth and planets revolve around the sun at the center historically, [00:46:00] Helio Centrism was opposed to geo centrism, which placed the earth at the center. now we've hit the firmament. Fronk: In the cosmology of the flat earth. The disc shaped planet is covered by a dome whose edges stopped just beyond the roughly 145 foot high ice wall of Antarctica. And these stars are fixed on this dome while the sun and moon, which are only about 31 miles in diameter, revolve about a 3,100 miles above the earth. Dave: Now, as we said before in biblical cosmology, the firmament is a vast, solid dome or semi solid dome created by God during his creation in the first six days To divide the primal sea into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear, which surrounds the earth or frozen water, I've heard this a lot with the biblical cosmology stuff, is that it's explained during day one, day two, day three, and they even say in the Bible, God created the firmament. I [00:47:00] believe it's on ver bran's headstone, as we've mentioned previously. I think it's a lot of wordplay and interpretation,  Mike: We also mentioned back in Hollow Moon, if you've listened to that episode about the Zulu tribe, where the firmament or atmosphere rained down to earth.  Our flat earthers saying that the sky is liquid possibly. Clearly, we know that the Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% argon and 0.1% of other gases. Dave: Now, quickly, recently, I've heard a lot of arguments in quite a few different shows and videos not just one proponent, but multiple proponents on this theory. And a lot of 'em will say, well, the atmosphere itself is just a different version of water as it is up in space, a whole different version of water. Because they use the example of if you go to the deep oceans or certain lakes, there's different [00:48:00] salinities of water. You'll have heavier water on the bottom, different pockets of water. the atmosphere works the same way and they say, because it has the same elements in it. Now, if our atmosphere is made up of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, yes, there's hydrogen in that, because if we need water, we need H two O, which does happen in the atmosphere, Fronk: shit. That's why they sent U-boats to space it's water. Dave: oh. Fronk: Oh, Dave: That's it.  You got me.  Mike: done. We're done.    Final thoughts, boys? Fronk: Thank you Hushlings. Dave: Yeah, that's it. Mike: Okay, so we're talking about the firmament currently. Now I just want everyone to know the actual definition of a firmament. So the firmament is the vault or arch of the sky. The firmament isn't necessarily something that is physical. It is something that is viewed. the [00:49:00] arch from one horizon to the other is the sky. That is the firmament. So when everybody's saying, oh, firmament, they're talking about the firmament, they're talking about something that's physically there. No, that's a viewpoint. The firmament refers to horizon. To horizon. The arch of the sky as you see it from one end of your viewpoint to the other Dave: Makes sense. There's a lot of that too, where it said that you're, uh, you have a personal viewing bubble and I think that's misinterpreted as what you're actually, what you can see you go up a 1500 foot mountain, you look around, you can see 360 degrees.  Mike: that's your firmament. Dave: that's your firmament. Fronk: One bar from Suicide Boy's last album. One of them goes Dome. So good. I think she think the earth is flat mouth like the fucking firmament. She got my eyes rolling back. There you go.  Mike: it says it all. Fronk: [00:50:00] It says it all, it says it all your, your mouth has a firmament. Mike: Show me what that firmament do. Fronk: land ho. We have hit the ice walls and the absence of the poles along the edge of our local area exists a massive 150 foot ice wall. This ice wall is on the coast of Antarctica, and The wall is absolutely gargantuan, made up of solid water, ice that surrounds our world and holds our world's oceans in.   And the South Pole does not exist, whereas the North Pole is just a giant mountain called a hyperly that you can't visit. Dave: The ice walls were discovered by Sir James Clark, who was a British naval officer and polar explorer who was amongst the first adventure to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the south magnetic pole between 1768 and 1779. [00:51:00] Upon confronting the massive vertical front of ice heat famously remarked. Mike: "It was an obstruction of such character as to leave no doubt in my mind as to our future proceedings for we might as well sail through the Cliffs of Dover as to penetrate such a mass. That's what she said. It would be impossible to conceive a more solid looking mass of ice. Not the smallest appearance of any rent or fisher. Could we discover throughout the whole of its extent and the intensely bright sky beyond it, but too plainly indicated. The great distance to which it wreaths, southward " Dave: apparently it took him three years or so to do one of the journeys and he circumnavigated the globe at 77,000 miles. what if he did it three times and did [00:52:00] 77,000 miles? That's the one thing that I've always thought is that, was it one trip  Fronk: And he just didn't know Mike: But again, in the 18 hundreds, let's say that this guy goes and he encounters an ice shelf, would he not think that was an ice wall? Dave: yeah, Fronk: like, oh shit. Well this is the edge of the world I suppose. Mike: there's no going past this. My ship can't go through that. Dave: I mean, yeah, that would be logical. Mike: I think this is what we said in the first one, a lot of these arguments for a flat earth revert back to like this 18 hundreds knowledge. Let's look at this book from the 18 hundreds. Look, they mentioned the firmament. Let's look at this. they talk about ice stones and blah, blah, blah. Fronk: The future is a lie. . The truth lies in the 18 hundreds. Reject modernity, Now all of this would of course, imply that Antarctica isn't at all what they say. And we've [00:53:00] mentioned this quite a bit about the Antarctic treaty already and the Antarctic bases and all of the secrets that they hide and you can't go there. You're not allowed There. Only scientists. Yeah. That's where they're hiding the edge of the.  Dave: Let's board a plane real quick and try to go to Antarctica. I know we say we can get there by ship, but two major arguments about airplanes with the flat earth theory is one, there's no round trip flights to Antarctica. And I think we covered this briefly in our first one where we had said, Antarctica fucking sucks. And that's probably why there's no round trip flights and how a lot of the Southern Hemisphere flights cannot be explained. And I believe we went over that a lot in our first episode. And I still stick by all of what I thought about that. Now, the other question that comes up with this theory  one, can you see curve in a commercial aircraft? And two, the aircraft always has to be pitching nose down after a [00:54:00] certain amount of time. Those two arguments come up major in this theory. So I wanna get your thoughts on do planes always have to tip downward as you're flying? Cuz you've all been on flights before, Fronk: No, the plane isn't nose diving or it doesn't feel like it anyway. It doesn't seem like it's nose diving by any means. Dave: but you would feel it. You can feel drop in altitude when you're starting to descend and you feel that, whew, almost that weird weightlessness when they drop a couple hundred feet or a thousand feet pretty quickly. You can feel turbulence, obviously. , I don't think that it necessarily pitches downward after a certain distance because I think, like I said earlier, planes are tiny and the earth is huge. So I don't think there's that much effect of a plane having to move when it's floating on top of a surface of air. Fronk: If a plane pitched downwards while at like max [00:55:00] altitude, wouldn't it just start losing altitude? Wouldn't you just be going towards the ground or am I being peanut brained? Dave: If planes were going in the straight path following the Earth's curve, then they would fly off into space. That's what they say. And I think it's simpler than that. Planes fly in a certain area from 35,000 to 50,000 feet, especially commercial aircraft in a certain layer of air that's thinnest. Which is why they can move as fast as they can, but I don't believe that they're pitching because they're so tiny that everything is going to appear flat at 35,000 feet cuz the earth is so big. Mike: , they're maintaining a certain altitude from the ground, so they're not pitching anything. They're just going with the natural atmosphere of the earth. Dave: Gravity.  Mike: Yeah.    Dave: The plane thing never, never made too much sense to me, especially with the flying off into space. If you didn't compensate for curvature, it's because the Plains Center [00:56:00] mass is always perpendicular with the ground and the plane is so insignificantly small. That you will not notice those changes. You notice left and right banks on planes, , you take a direction moving towards another city, you see it, you feel the whole plane go and you're looking towards the ground. If you're ascending, you feel that inertia you're getting pulled up into the air, especially on takeoffs. Or if you're descending, you feel that, oh, the pilot goes, we're gonna be descending in a couple minutes, and all of a sudden you feel that that drop, you feel that motion left, right, and vertical but you don't feel those nudges that they say that they're doing. So I don't think that that happens. I just think the center mass of that plane is fighting against gravity to keep it up. It's a boat in the sky. Mike: even if they did, that's a continuous compensation. So it's not like they're flying a certain distance and then going, oh, well I'm eight inches above where I was before. I need to adjust. Even if that was the truth, they would just make manual [00:57:00] adjustments as they went. So over that period of time, a half inch, a quarter inch, whatever you wouldn't even be able to tell in the first place if that was the case. Fronk: And that would only be if you were flying like across the world. I'm sure it's even less so if you're flying from somewhere on the east coast down to like Minnesota or something, it's gonna be even less noticeable if you're traveling somewhere that local. Dave: You're only traveling a couple hundred miles. Fronk: Yeah, exactly. Mike: I'm sure the figures are out there, but how many flat earthers are from America versus from the rest of the world? Dave: Good question. Mike: just wondering. Dave: I don't know the answer to that. I would say there's a lot in America. America is a very conspiracy driven country at the moment, and flat earth boils down to every other conspiracy. If you believe wholeheartedly in this, you believe everything else, the lies, everything is fake. Your entire [00:58:00] existence is fake. that's from what I get Fronk: That sucks. And then, and then from that point where do they go with that? They yell at other people about it or We're gonna briefly go over the eclipse aspect of flat earth theory. Now, we all obviously know what eclipses are. That's when the moon aligns with the sun and the earth and blocks out the sun. You know the deal. and remember that the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun. It's also about 400 times closer to the earth than the sun is. Is that coincidence that this astronomical phenomenon happens? Uh, Dave: Well, I can tell you from the flat earth side that that is almost impossible.  Mike: It's pretty impossible either way. Like it's pretty coincidental. I will give it to them that when you're talking about the sun and the moon being these like perfect distances and these perfect sizes and these per that's intriguing to say the least. I will give them. Dave: Which we did go over[00:59:00] Hollow moon theory if the moon was placed here, it was placed here on purpose, but then that would give weight to some type of, maybe not creationism, but some type of external control or external observation, which I think all of us are on the fence with that.  That could be, it could not be, Mike: Again, prove to me that any of this is real Dave: So there's two types of eclipses. There's solar and lunar eclipses. Now, the way solar eclipses work is that the moon orbits in between the sun and the earth. And when that occurs, obviously the moon blocks out the sunlight. You see the corona bought a bing. You have a solar eclipse, and the moon also casts a shadow on the earth. Now, a lot of the times it's told that the moon can't cast this little tiny pin prick shadow that goes across the earth. But if the moon is relatively 200,000 miles away, why couldn't it?  Mike: According to flat Earth theorists, this astronomical phenomenon is [01:00:00] actually a glimpse of a mysterious shadow object that orbits the sun and occasionally passes in front of the moon. From our point of view, could it be planet X Nibiru? No. This object is known as the anti moon. That's new Dave: another random object in our solar system. We could go on and on about eclipses, but we have to talk about one of the biggest fallacies of our education system. Gravity, Mike: not real. Dave: not real. Now, one of the most well agreed upon theories is general relativity. And it is the theory of gravitation developed by our boy Albert Einstein, who was apparently a conman according to flat earthers. And between 1907 and 1915, he figured all this out. The theory of general relativity says that an observe gravitational effect between masses results from their warping of space time. Gravity is still just a theory to us. I guess we can all be on the fence [01:01:00] on it cause we really don't get it. And I think scientists have , admitted that they don't get it,  Mike: Well, didn't recently they say that they had to like rework that entire thought process for some discovery that they had found that the theory of relativity had to be, had to be rethought or it was not necessarily wrong entirely, but partially, I guess., it had to do with the way that a black hole was working, where for the first time they saw a star coming out of a black hole. Fronk: Yeah, I saw that it was being regurgitated. They saw light coming out of a black hole. That's right. Mike: Things are happening, man. Whether you believe in space or not, it's. Pretty wild. Fronk: Newton's love gravitation states every point Mass attracts every single other point mass by a force acting along the line intersecting both points. I don't know what that means. The force is proportional to the product of the two [01:02:00] masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Exactly. That's what I've been saying this whole Mike: Sounds about right. Thanks boys. Well, what is gravity? According to this theory, it's stated that the earth isn't pulled into a sphere because the force known as gravity exists in a greatly diminished form compared to what is commonly taught, which is that we're being pulled down to the center of the earth while. The flat Earth is constantly accelerating up at a rate of 32 feet per second squared or 9.8 meters per second squared. As we had previously mentioned, this constant acceleration causes what you think of as gravity, but it's actually caused by a universal accelerator known as dark energy or Etheric wind. Never heard of Etheric wind. That's interesting, Fronk: time's that post Taco Bell shit's my etheric wind. Dave: [01:03:00] Furthermore with this we hear words like density and buoyancy a lot in these theories arguments, which is why things fall to the ground that are heavier and explains rockets, which are thought to actually be filled with helium and have a pyrotechnic show. that proves that all things fall at 9.8 meters squared.   Dave: All right boys, we're getting towards the end of our flat earth expedition here. But we have to go back in the sky. That brings us to rockets and satellites. As we just mentioned. Proponents of flat earth theory believe that satellites totally exist, but cannot be seen from the ground and are actually held in the atmosphere by helium balloons. Hence why NASA is the largest consumer of helium and they sometimes crash into the planet, which we call them weather balloons. And I guess that would explain the weather balloon phenomenon.  Fronk: Satellites in low earth orbit are constantly fighting gravity. According to science, some are geographically fixed and keep their [01:04:00] orbit by balancing two factors, their velocity, which is the speed required to travel in a straight line and their gravitational pull to the earth. To resist the stronger gravitational pole, a satellite orbiting closer to the earth requires more velocity. And of course, we're not going to get out of this debriefing without a little bit of NASA sprinkled in that bitch. Mike: Yes, good old nasa, our friends over there, professional cgi. It's widely assumed that humans have never left the Earth's atmosphere. In fact, we've never left earth and entered space because we lack the ability to do so in the first place unless you're a Nazi and a U-boat. Most of what society has been taught about space is completely made up or greatly exaggerated. By the government and or the elites. There's also the claim that humans have never landed on the moon. I'm with that, and that the infamous moon landings witnessed by the entire world in [01:05:00] 1969 were a sham. Fronk: Okay. I'll give them that. A major claim is that any pictures from the Apollo 11 mission that show that our planet as a sphere in the distance were fabricated by the government and nasa and NASA's mission is not to hide the shape of the earth or trick people into thinking it's round or anything else of the sort. Dave: Well, that's what NASA says, right?  We obviously know that there's some type of space travel conspiracy, whether it's more advanced or it doesn't exist. Possibly Nasa's mission is to create the illusion of space travel in order to, cover for the military, and their dominance in space. One thing we forgot to mention that I thought of real quick when you guys were talking is the quick notion on gravity. There's a lot of flat earthers that will say, well, can you jump, when you jump off the earth, you a hundred, 200 pound person jumping off the earth. Do you come back [01:06:00] down? And was it easy to jump? Then why is gravity so strong? Fronk: that's the whole argument of like, why does Gravity hold our planet's, oceans On  Dave: Yeah. Yeah. If it can  hold all this water and all this mass,  why can you jump off your roof and hit the ground? Mike: Because there is a different pull depending on the mass of the object.  Dave: Mike wins a gold star Fronk: gold sticker for you. Mike: boys, let's get into our final thoughts. Everything that was on Reddit, we've been through, we've done this whole thing. I wanna know the final thoughts as we get into stage two of becoming a flat earth. are we now believing that gravity is not real? The sun is a, lamp and uh, and we live on a flat plain, surrounded by an ice wall. Dave, are you a flat earther? Dave: No. sadly, I am not a flat earther. I think it's an [01:07:00] interesting theory that opens up a lot of more conspiracies and there are some valid questions, but I think a lot of it has to do with our lack of actually being able to see things because we are restricted beings. Uh, the one thing about flat earth theory that I find really fascinating is the suppression of information, the hidden things. And I think that's the conspiratorial part that really pulls me, believing that it is a different shape or an infinite plane or a snow globe, or, flatterers is gonna get so mad at me for saying that because we don't believe it's a snow globe. It doesn't look like a pancake. They all have different theories and a lot of it goes back to religion. A lot of it goes to creationism. A lot of it goes back to every other conspiracy you've ever heard of. So for me, still, I still think we live on a planet. the definition of planet is what we live on. Is it a perfect sphere? I think that's proven that it's not a perfect sphere.[01:08:00] I'm not a scientist, but I've done research and research and research and supposedly it takes up to two weeks or so to become a flat earth. I've been doing this research since like the end of July, and I'm still not convinced. wanted to give it a fair shake. Didn't wanna be a douche bag. Would invite any flat earth to come on and talk to us. We'd love to have you on, but You didn't get me yet. Mike: I will take my final thoughts, a complete left turn here. I don't care. I don't care whether it's a giant paella pan or if we live on a dodge ball. I, I don't care. I don't care. Maybe it's the blue pilled part of my brain that still exists. I don't give a shit. It doesn't change anything. I'm still gonna wake up in the morning and have to go to work, have to pay my taxes, and eventually I'm gonna fucking die. That's just the way that it is. I don't care if we live on a flat plane, I don't care if we live on a globe. It's just the way that [01:09:00] it is. but I don't think that we live on a fly plane. I'm just gonna say that I don't think that I, I do think that there is a lot of cover up of our former history. That much I believe is true. I do believe that NASA is filled with a bunch of liars and they do fabricate things including, setting up these videos where they're watching astronauts float around, but the water stays in a cup. That's an interesting one. , I do think that they do composite images together and they are a bunch of liars that I completely agree with. . I love you whether you're a flat earth or not, but no, it's a no for me. Fran, give us your final thoughts. Did you become a flat earther in this episode?   Fronk: No, I didn't. , I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say that I tried to give flat earth theory, the benefit of [01:10:00] the doubt, but I tried to stay open-ended, especially towards like the beginning of the episode. I was just trying to like see it from both sides and I still do to an extent. And you're right in saying that their best argument is the space shit and nasa, but, that can't be all you're going off of here, because that, lends to so much other shit besides just the shape of the planet.  And not only that, if you're like sold on the shape of the planet, then you've been deceived. You know what, I'm gonna pull a flirter and tell you what you've been taught on. The internet is wrong, and it's all code. You've been tricked into thinking that what we live on is physical and that it has shape. There is no shape. I've never even been out of the country. You can't even convince me that Australia's real, let alone the, the, the fucking shape of the  Mike: you're partial flat earther because they don't believe that Australia is real either. Fronk: [01:11:00] Oh, no. Australia's not real Mike: listen, if you're in Australia and you, uh, you live there full time, reach out to us. Send us an email. Even better a voicemail, because I just want to hear the accent. Send us a voicemail and say, Hey, yeah, I exist. I'm here. This is a real place. Dave: Clearly they exist. They're number three on our Spotify Mike: That's right. Thanks Australia. Fronk: No, I, I never tried to doubt Australia. It was a metaphor, but Dave: Our Hustralians down under, Mike: That's hilarious. Dave: , if we offended you we're sorry. Well, I partially am. Mike: I, I, listen, I tried this episode. I think that I was better than the first episode. I didn't sit there and say anybody was an idiot or any of that stuff. like I said, you believe what you wanna believe, but on, at the end of the day, I don't think that it really matters. Fronk: And if it makes you feel [01:12:00] special, by all means,

We're graced by a dangerous duo of mecha/mahjong enthusiasts this time around: Dave Cabrera (@Sasuraiger on Twitter) and Carl (@SDShamshel) join us for a convention report of Otakon 2022 which was held in Washington D.C. Visit www.animeworldorder.com for full show notes and supplemental links.

La bannière de Carillon fait 213 cm de largeur et 307 cm de longueur sur un fond vert très pâle qui fut peut-être du bleu, comme le fleurdelisé. Elle aurait flotté pour la première fois à la bataille de Carillon de 1758, remportée par Montcalm. Le journaliste et historien Dave Noël départage le vrai du faux concernant ce drapeau.

As designers or developers — even product makers — when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail. WordPress is certainly in an inflection point. Where as the software is evolving, read: gutenberg + fullsite editing, the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is. I feel like that's a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years now. When you unlock it's power of custom post types and fields with a dash of REST API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data. Yet with an interface that I struggle to drag a single block into the 3 column of my page layout. Today's guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress, specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years but that usability struggle I mentioned earlier? Yeah…that's caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform you may have heard of before on the show before — Webflow. Welcome today's guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of designing a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it. Episode transcript [00:00:00] Dave: switching tools is, is not for the faint-hearted, it's quite an expensive process, isn't it? In terms of well sunk cost in terms of what you've already. [00:00:08] Put into the amount of time and energy that you've put into learning tools that you've previously used. I also had have still, a multiple six figure a year business teaching WordPress teaching, very specific tools, WordPress and elements are, that combination elements or page builder. [00:00:25] Matt: This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by foo plug-ins or specifically foo plugins, foo gallery. You can find it@foo.gallery. There's a new pro commerce plan, and it gives you two way integration into WooCommerce. So if you want to sell photos, you can sell photos with foo.gallery and woo commerce. [00:00:47] It makes your job. Super easy, especially if you're a photographer. I just had family photos taken the other day and I looked at the big conglomerate website that my photographer sent me. He said, man, it would look so much better if you. Right through WooCommerce, especially if you use something like foo gallery, check out food, art gallery, and learn more about their pro commerce plan. [00:01:09] Check out their WooCommerce integration. They have a great way to watermark and protect your photo galleries. Check them out and thank them for sponsoring the show. It's food, art gallery go-to food art gallery today. Start selling images with foo gallery and. [00:01:27] As designers or developers, even product makers when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail. WordPress is certainly in an inflection point right now. Whereas the software is evolving Reed Gutenberg in full site, editing the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is. I feel like that's a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years. [00:01:50] When you unlock its power custom post types and fields with a dash of rest API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data yet with an interface that I struggle to drag and drop a single block into a third column of my page layout today's guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years. [00:02:12] But the usability struggle that I just met. Yeah, that's caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform. You may have heard of before on the show web. Welcome today's guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of devising a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it. [00:02:34] You're listening to the Mer report, a podcast for the resilient digital business builder. If you'd like to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/matt report. And buy me a digital coffee or joined the membership to jump into our private discord server with others. Chatting it up about the. [00:02:48] And greatest in our crazy WordPress world, that's buy me a coffee.com/maryport. And thanks to Fu plug-ins for supporting today's show. Check out food gallery food art gallery for more. Okay. [00:03:00] Here's my interview with Dave.  [00:03:01] Dave: I had a lot of resistance, a lot of inner resistance to partly because, switching tools is, is not for the faint-hearted, it's quite an expensive process, isn't it? In terms of well sunk cost in terms of what you've already. [00:03:15] Put into the amount of time and energy that you've put into learning tools that you've previously used. But I mean, I also had have still, but, I had at the time, like a multiple six figure a year business teaching WordPress teaching, very specific tools, WordPress and elements are, that combination elements or page builder. [00:03:35] And so it, it really was kind of. It, it, it was, it was a real kind of crunch time for me for thinking that I have got to the point where I cannot use these tools anymore. I'm finding that I actually I'm finding that. I'll talk about the details in a moment, but I can't in all conscience recommend this particular combination of tools that I am well-known for and, very well paid for I can't carry on. [00:04:05] So, believe me, it was quite a, quite a risk. I think I remember one of my students say, and I've mentioned it's something in, in the, in the little private Facebook group that I've got for one of my courses. And he just said career suicide. Nice. So, [00:04:23] Matt: for thanks for the vote of confidence. [00:04:25] Dave: Awesome. I mean, it, it probably had a point, you probably had a point  [00:04:29] Matt: What was that? Oh, just real quick. What was that concern for you to say? You know what, I don't feel like I can recommend these tools anymore. Was it more a, an ELA mentor thing? Was it more a WordPress thing? I mean, we're in this chaotic times where it's like, Gutenberg is still trying to get better full site editing's coming in. [00:04:48] You layer on the complexity of a piece of software that wants you to build a website a certain way? Are we just hitting a perfect storm here? Or was there something specific? [00:04:57] Dave: Yeah, possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I had got to the point where I started, well, I've, I've been using WordPress since 2007, something like that, so for my own personal projects and my own client projects, I'd use WordPress for, for a good long time. It was when I actually decided to teach online. I long story, I think we've covered this plenty of times before, but for 10 years I was actually a school teacher. [00:05:23] I'm a, I am a qualified teacher, so I was a qualified teacher, teaching young children in the, in the UK. Like in the nineties and early two thousands. And I then got into web design and build up a great business, but it just decided that I just miss teaching so much. So for me, around 2016 ish, I decided I actually want to get back into teaching, but I want to teach the thing that I've been, I've been working with the web design tools that I'll be working with for, for, for many years, what, what a perfect combination. [00:05:54] So, I did a lot of research, long story, but I'd discovered elements or which was [00:06:00] just in its earliest stages at the time. And thought this combination of tools is brilliant for, for my target market. My target market is always non coders. People who don't want to code and probably feel a bit nervous about the prospect of. [00:06:14] Th they, they want to build websites, but web design technology, web design tools, web development, isn't something that is natural to them. It's not something that they are completely off-air with. And. So I always see my job as taking people who look at all this stuff and think, oh, wow, this is so complicated. [00:06:35] And possibly quite scary. It's my job to say, it's all fine. Just do this, this and this. And it all works out. So in a sense, I'd particularly chosen WordPress and elements or that particular combination, because it just seemed right for my target. Now over the gears, elements or has added on features and features and features WordPress itself, as you say, is changing dramatically. [00:07:02] I think ultimately that will be for the good of WordPress. Definitely. I know a lot of people complain about Gothenburg, but I think it is getting there, but it got to the point where I started to think would I in, in, in all kind of conscience, I suppose, would I, conscious now. Recommend to somebody who once frost-free hassle-free stress-free web design experience, where basically stuff just works. [00:07:30] All of the scary kind of hustle behind the scenes all the kind of configuration, all the. The, the stuff that people complain about WordPress, which is actually a strength at the same time, which is it's plugin plugin system, plugin architecture, but I'd got to the point where, for my own use of WordPress, but also just being sensitive to the needs of my students and the needs of the people who I work with day in, day out to help with this stuff. [00:08:01] I just saw massive frustration. Massive massive frustration with constant plugin updates, constant issues with plugins. It's not new in WordPress at all, obviously, but you know, updating plugins to find that something's broken, there's a conflict with something else, finding websites that now this is, I think, quite a bit of elemental issue cause they do, they have had a history of releasing some quite buggy releases in in more recently. [00:08:30] But you know, finding that a website that worked perfectly well, last time they logged in now, suddenly it doesn't work in, in some way there's some functionality broken or there's a, there's the layout that's suddenly off. Issues with hosting and all the RS, all manner of different things. It's kind of like that little drip, drip trip, the, the Chinese water torture, I think is called, the, the drip, drip, drip, drip of, of, of, of constant issues where I just thought there's, there's gotta be a better [00:09:00] way. [00:09:00] I know that, for instance, like I use Thinkific for my online course. And it's just all done for me. I can get on with actually creating courses, uploading the courses and teaching, there are, there are, I don't know, email marketing platforms where that the heavy lifting and the stuff that I don't need to know is done in the background so I can get on with my job. [00:09:22] And I started to think that there must be something better than this constant stress and worry and, and hustle. And maintenance and all of these other things, which is what led me to start looking at other possible or the solutions.  [00:09:39] Matt: I've seen the love, hate relationship with Gutenberg, how fast this piece of software has been iterated on. And just all the changes you couple that with ELA mentor, which is also on a rocket ship ride, they're growing, they're adding new features. They've hit a bout of turbulence, I guess is probably the nicest thing that I could say. [00:10:01] I know I've seen you and Paul on Twitter really hammering it home with element or for good reason. And they have to be conscious, I think, of element or they have the conscious of just not throwing the kitchen sink at everything for the sake of the kitchen sink.  [00:10:17] I feel like folks who are looking for a web flow solution understand that they should invest some money in a platform. That's just going to do it without the FOS updates, hosting issues. Incompatibilities with other plugins, like I will pay the, have that done on Webflow versus the WordPress side of it where it's like, man, there's so many variables that, that can be thrown at this. [00:10:46] Where are you getting that feedback from your audience?  [00:10:48] Dave: Yeah, it was it was, as I said, at the beginning, it was a very, very reluctant look looking for something else for very, very lots of, lots of reasons. I didn't want to be looking anywhere else. Yeah. Partly it was, it was my. And it was partly because of elements or boogie releases. So I got on with, for instance, I needed to build a new website for myself late last year, and they installed a new instance of WordPress and elements. [00:11:14] I was like, global colors just didn't work at all, just broken. And so, so w there were several issues like that just personally for myself, as it was like, oh, what, what is it now? There was not, and it's not just, it's not just elements or, I think. Lots and lots of other, other plugins as well, but let's, I'm probably focusing on elements are maybe a bit too much, but, but yeah, it certainly wasn't a good feeling from my audience and students by, by any means. [00:11:43] I mean, my, my group, I sort of private group was just every day there was just something of like, why isn't this working? Why is this thing broken now? Or it wasn't just necessarily as WordPress. It was like hosting as well, or. I think because. Because the, [00:12:00] because of the plugin architecture and there are plugins coming down the pipe every single day as you. [00:12:04] And I know constantly with, with new features and, potentially solving problems with SEO and page speed and everything else. So th th there were those issues with stuff just being broken and being hard. And, people struggling just to keep up with a frantic pace of change. I think that that was partly the thing, but I think also it was just, I think, yeah, just, just, I, I suppose people just I'm just trying to think of the best way to put it really. [00:12:33] Yeah, just, just gen general kind of anxiety about, about stuff being broken and stuff. Just not being easy, I think is the easiest way to put it. Yeah. [00:12:43] Matt: I want to ask you this question. This is going a little bit deeper in sort of like the creator in the, in the creator mindset, the, the business of being a creator and monetizing on, let's say YouTube and affiliate sales. It probably wasn't an easy decision to make either because one would imagine knowing what I did with affiliate sales, for elements. [00:13:06] Which was a flea on an elephant's ass, probably compared to what you and maybe others have done. It was probably a tough business decision to write, to be like, look, I'm making money. And I think you and Paul and, and, and the other folks that I communicate with on, on YouTube, you do affiliates. Right. I think of immediately when peoples think affiliates are like, oh, what are you trying to sell me? [00:13:29] What kind of cloaking device are you using on these, on these links? Like at one point in your, in your career, you're like, Elementor is a fantastic tool at this time. And they have an affiliate program. Why not recommend this and make money? It's a legit way when you're doing it a legit way. I don't have any other better way of saying that. [00:13:49] So I'd probably, at some point you were like, oh man, like I will be turning off this. Potentially of money. What was that like? And did you have, do you have any thoughts or feelings around affiliate sales and how this helps make the decision  [00:14:01] Dave: Yeah, well, I mean, affiliates, the affiliate business model was never ever my intention when I first started my thing was I'm going to sell courses and affiliate sales were have always just been a bit of a nice to have. When I first started my YouTube channel started making videos about this fairly brand new tool called elements or at the time I happened. [00:14:22] I mentioned my affiliate link. I think it just dropped it in the description. Sometimes I would, occasionally when elements I had an offer, I would let my email list know which was regrowing. My, my business model was growing my email list to sell courses in a nutshell. That's it. And it still is. Grow the email list to sell courses. [00:14:41] But thank goodness that I was an affiliate for elements or in those early days, because in the first kind of nine months of me getting to the point where I even had the confidence to make a course and to feel like I could sell it at all, we're going back to 2017 now, which seems so long [00:15:00] ago, it was only a few years, but yeah, the, the, the, the affiliate income from I was an affiliate for very, very few. [00:15:07] Elements or generate press. I don't know, maybe a hosting platform as well. Well, the income from that was better than I'd been making, working full-time as a web designer. And it absolutely saved my ass because if I hadn't have had that income I think the whole online course thing probably would have failed. [00:15:28] Now. I say that because I. Way too long to actually make a product and offer it to my, offer it to my audiences, to my MLS. So these days when I mentor and help people create products and make online courses, one of my first things is to say, is this a build. As a small and email list, as you can get away with find a hundred people and sell something, make something to sell. [00:15:55] It can be very low value, not low value, low, low price. It doesn't matter, but start making something and start selling something straight away, because it's only then that you can start getting true feedback about what people actually want, what they're prepared to pay for and where you? [00:16:11] should put your energies. [00:16:13] But yeah, the affiliate thing was, was massive, but. W my, the income of saying about, I'm not, I'm not saying it's a brag, but it's a multiple six figures a year. Business is mostly from courses. It's mostly from selling courses. I'd say 90% is from selling courses about WordPress and elemental, specifically about using those tools. [00:16:36] And yeah, to say that it's career suicide, there's the phrase, career suicide. [00:16:42] Matt: And you were, you were lucky enough to get to a point. Did you turn ads on, on your YouTube  [00:16:48] Dave: No, no, no, no. Never never had no, no, no,  [00:16:51] Matt: Just because you didn't want the experience or the user to have that experience of ads, or you were never looking at it  [00:16:59] Dave: I think, I think what I wanted to do was just to make sure. The foolishly probably, this is, this is not a savvy business head talking, but I think I just want to, just to make sure that when people watch my videos, that we're just not being interrupted by ads and, they could just actually enjoy the experience of, of watching the videos. [00:17:18] And I suspected that probably the income from that wasn't particularly going to be too great anyway. So I just always kept monitorization off for that reason. Really.  [00:17:27] Matt: My YouTube story is like, how do I get into this game? How do I create this content? And I quickly, but I don't say quickly, it took me six months to burn out, doing like three videos a week or maybe three or four videos a week. I had this ambitious goal of doing it like every day. And I just flatlined burned out. [00:17:46] I didn't literally didn't touch it for a year. And then all of a sudden. Ad sent, sent me the first check for a hundred bucks. Right. Then I logged in and it was, I had tripled my audience without uploading a video in a year, just because of SEO. [00:17:58] The light bulb went off. [00:18:00] Like you fool, you shouldn't have given up, you should have done it less. So you didn't burn yourself out, but you shouldn't have given up. And again, like life gets in the way YouTube stuff is so far away. My daily routine that I haven't uploaded episodes. And, but I still am making three or 400 bucks a month in ads. [00:18:19] And I have a lot of kids, so diapers are expensive. So I leave the ads on, but I, I, I can certainly, I can certainly see in your world where these bigger products, bigger prices, the brand, the value, there is a target for you to focus on. [00:18:34] Dave: Yeah. [00:18:35] definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I was the one that I think I wanted that sense of kind of trustworthiness. Yeah. just that experience. Really. I was not to say that people with ads, I watch, oh, I've got YouTube premium now, so I don't see any ads, but seeing ads on people's videos, I actually don't, I don't personally tie that into a decision that's made by the creator of the video at all. [00:18:55] It doesn't, I understand how it works as well, but I don't ever think, oh, they've, they've got ads turned on. They obviously don't care about my experiences as a viewer. It doesn't enter my head, so  [00:19:06] Matt: side note, I also signed up recently for premium, like late was finally one of those things where, you know, before you sign up for premium, every time you logged into YouTube, they'd be like, do premium, do premium, do premium. And I'm always like clothes, clothes, clothes. And I tell you, Dave, I am like, screw it. [00:19:23] I'm going to do it. Right. Like finally, you got me YouTube, literally a thousand pop-ups later is probably what my conversion metrics were. You finally got me and I signed up and I watched my first video with no ads. And I was like, wow,  [00:19:41] Dave: Yeah, well, consider the side.  [00:19:43] Matt: brain, because my brain was trained so much now with like their three pre-roll ads and then the, the pop-up in the middle of the banner and then like the mid roll. [00:19:53] And when I'm doing work for Casto, sometimes I'm in the Castle's account and I'm uploading my videos for Casos and I'll be watching something. And I'll be like, what is this ad? Like, my brain is like, what is this? Like, it was happening. And like, oh yeah, I'm not in my premium account. [00:20:08] Dave: It is awesome. I think it's. worth every single  [00:20:11] Matt: It is, it's. it is.  [00:20:13] Dave: Yeah, definitely.  [00:20:15] Matt: when I go on vacation with my children and recently w we're going to, we were in Florida and they're watching TV, cable, TV, and there's commercials. And my kids are literally asking me what dad, what is this? Why, why isn't the show playing? Because they're so used to Netflix and Disney plus. [00:20:33] Dave: Yeah.  [00:20:34] Matt: And they see a commercial and they are freaking out. They're like, what, what is a show? Where's the show? And I'm like, it's just a, it's a thing called commercial kids that you didn't grow up with. Welcome to my world.  [00:20:46] Dave: Oh, wow.  [00:20:46] Matt: All right. As we get into the back half of this conversation, web flow, did you, you said like, I want to find a platform that is easy, all encompassing. [00:20:59] Was Webflow [00:21:00] is in the back of your mind or did you start doing some homework and then you settled on Webflow? [00:21:04] Dave: Yeah, Well, I had, I'd actually been recommended Webflow several times over at least two years, probably more. And every time somebody said to me, you've got dude, you've got to check web flow out. And these were people that are trusted and respected friends of mine, colleagues, people all over the place. [00:21:19] And people who had never looked back, it would just adopted it for their agency as their go-to tool. And they moved from WordPress. And every single time somebody recommended it. I said, well, yeah, I've heard of that. I'll check it out. And then I would immediately toss the idea in the bin and think there is literally no way I am looking at any of the tools because I've got a lot of, as we've said, a lot invested in, in WordPress and everything. [00:21:44] So yeah. Yeah. So, so actually choosing Webflow. I, I had a little look around to see anything else. I obviously don't, didn't bother looking at the Squarespaces and the Wix and things like that. But yeah, the web flow was pretty much, pretty much the only one that I considered now, I actually tried it and gave up three times, like completely just thought, right, come on, come on. [00:22:07] You can do this. I mean, how hard can it be and gave up three times because it's not actually. It's not actually, it's not a beginner's platform. It's not designed for people who that, that Squarespace is designed for. You don't get a lot of pre pre-made designs and in fact, it's harder to use done. [00:22:26] I would say a WordPress page builder, probably not oxygen because oxygen is based very, very, very much on web flow as I understand. But yeah, it was, it was hard. And what I also found as well is. I well, partly so, so what would happen is I'd give it a try and think, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. I just, haven't got time. [00:22:46] I'll persevere with what I'm using. And it was the third time there was like the straw that broke the camel's back. I've got to figure this out. And in some ways it really appealed to me because when you start, well, we'll go into the details too much. But when you style anything in Webflow, you literally click on it. [00:23:04] A podcast doesn't make this a very good visual medium for me to explain this. But when you click on anything in web flow and you want to style it, it could be literally any element whatsoever. You give it a name, like a class, a, you give that class, whatever styles you like. You've got all the styles at your disposal, really easy, nice UI. [00:23:23] And then you just use that class on anything else that you want to give that, that that's those, those same styles. The sense of having literally on, con on limited global styling, not having to go to some separate styling panel somewhere to constantly kind of keep going back and sort of adjusting things. [00:23:46] And also not being out there, I suppose. Th the page, whatever the page builder developers decided the global styles are that you're going to have is what you're stuck with. You're limited by that. [00:24:00] Usually we web flow. You can just do what you like now as a, as an, actually like a dinosaur old school, HTML and CSS hand coder back in the day, this really appealed. [00:24:12] Because I used to write CSS and I'd have one single CSS file, which I could just create as many styles as I liked, and I could control them all from one place. So it was that particularly about web flow. That just super appealed to me, the lack of the lack of limits, really. I'm not being, I'm not being, I'm not being hampered by. [00:24:32] I mean, it's great. For instance, elements are just as an example, the whole load of widgets and know there are probably a million different third-party add-ons as well. It will all bring a load more widgets as well. And it is amazing. You can drag a widget on the screen, just onto the canvas. It just produces, your tabs or your, your posts Lao or whatever it is. [00:24:53] But you still fairly limited by the styling options that that developer has decided to give you where it was with Webflow is just completely open-ended. The problem, the problem it's like everything in life, concentrate offs. The problem with that beautiful open-endedness is that you can make a real mess. [00:25:14] If you're not careful, if you've not kind of got a system and a workflow and a, an a way that you decide that you're going to name classes and use them and reuse them, it can be a bit of a mess. And that's the issue that I hit immediately. The wet floor. The Webflow university, which is web flows own a free training is absolutely brilliant. [00:25:36] I mean, as, than, as an educator myself, as a teacher myself, I mean, I, I just think those videos are astounding. They're incredible. And I think it speaks volumes about a company like that who have invested so much time and energy into training their users. So that stuff was helpful. and it kinda got me got, definitely got me so far, but I was, I think because my teaching in WordPress and other mentor was all about, you've got all these tools, you've got all the colors in there, all the crayons in the box, but you need a system, you need a workflow, you need it. [00:26:16] You need, you need to set yourself limits. So. Yeah, you can produce sites really quickly, really productively, profitably and not have to think too much, you've got a system and you just do it and you just build them. So I, that was, that was the, that was the sticking point with Webflow. And it's what I ended up actually building a framework myself though. [00:26:36] There isn't anything really, there are web flow frameworks out there, but they all had issues for me. So I ended up building my own, [00:26:43] Matt: I've tried Webflow before. And me it's as much more of a like shiny object syndrome and a little bit of like this whole, like no code. Movement where it's like, I don't know. Sometimes I've thought of sat back and be like, man, if I could just have like a database that I use, like connected with Zapier [00:27:00] and I could like automate these things, I see all these other people do it, like in two seconds on the back of a napkin. [00:27:04] And I'm like, I want to do that too. And then like, I jumped into like web flow and I'm like, oh God, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm just going to sound, I'm going away from this, this leads. And what I'm getting out of here is like, You tried it three times, whatever failed. And you're like, ah, somebody could just teach it my way you built it. [00:27:22] Right. You built the course to like, get people over that hump quite literally coming from WordPress to web flow. The name of your course is there a particular. Cut like a WordPress user or WordPress stack that somebody might be using. Who's like the perfect fit to, for your course number one, but for web flow, like certainly somebody who's us, I'm just a simple lowly WordPress blogger is probably not gonna need your course is probably not going to need web flow, but is there a certain, a certain avatar that is a perfect fit for your course, but for also to, to, to reap the benefits of web. [00:27:59] Dave: . I would say that people who I mean, if somebody is a WordPress developer, right? So we'll, we'll, we'll discount those people immediately, people are building their own themes and things like that then. Absolutely. Definitely not. I'm sure that WordPress gives you all of the, all of the control and the power and everything that you need. [00:28:14] So I would say more people who are trained to be. I'm trying to build full, fully functional websites using WordPress under page builder. I would say the people who definitely need a page builder of some kind. Now, when I'm in Gothenburg , is a page builder and it's developing fast as well. So I would say people who are using those tools particularly you, I, as I said, in a sense, web flow is a bit more complicated. [00:28:42] So it's, it's not just the. It is in some ways, but there isn't, the, the pre-built here is everything done for you. Aspect of quite a lot of the stuff that comes with a page builder. So there are certain things that you need to understand in the background. You need to understand what's going on. You need to understand a little bit about. [00:29:03] HTML and CSS as well. So just an, an understanding of just like how HTML interacts with CSS, just on a very basic level to understand things like inheritance, so when you set a style on the body, for instance, that is going to trickle down to everything underneath it, all the content and everything underneath it all, unless you override it. [00:29:26] So there are, there are concepts like that, that in a page builder, those people. I don't really even need to ever think about particularly, you can just eat just budge, something together quite, quite easily. I would say though that I, I do know of quite a lot of, of from end developers I suppose, backend developers as well, who really enjoy using web flow because it allows them to effectively write HTML and CSS without having to actually write HTML and CSS. [00:29:54] Cause like a graphical user interface for, for. Well, for me, [00:30:00] I am more than happy to recommend web flow to my audience, which are, as I said, non coders, they need a page builder and they're a little bit nervous about, all the multitude of different tools and, and, and things that they need to know. [00:30:15] Matt: I'm curious. I mean, I know the, as of, as of this time, which is September 17th at 11:30 AM Eastern standard time in new England, which is where we, we won't get into the  [00:30:28] Dave: I mean I'm in the old one.  [00:30:30] Matt: in the old one. You're in the original one. The, I know the course is not for sale yet. I'm curious. And I've seen it. [00:30:37] I think I've gone through the first two modules and, and, and, for the listener out there, like when Dave says he takes time, like it took me so long to do this. Yeah. But the quality is just mind blowing and I can't even imagine Dave, how much time you've spent on it. I don't, I don't know if you have a number of hours counted or if you even want to admit how long you've been into it. [00:30:57] I know it's not for sale yet. Do you, as of this recording, but maybe when we launch this recording do you anticipate. The some turbulence there. Right? So people in WordPress they're very much used to free or low cost web flows, paid the pain for your course. What are your thoughts? What's the gut tell you on promoting this as a business owner. [00:31:17] Dave: The first thing I would say is that when I started thinking about building a business, making online courses at all, my first thought was who on earth is going to pay any money for the learning, any of this stuff? And there's, there's this thing called YouTube. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's just full of all the free advice and tutorials and walkthroughs. [00:31:37] You could, you could ever hope for I purposefully, actually, I got over that mindset issue quite quickly, it's nonsense, but people are prepared to pay and they're prepared to pay good money as well for an investment in their career and their time and their stress levels and everything else. So, in terms of me worrying too much about people paying for a course or even paying for a platform, doesn't really worry me too much because the people who buy. [00:32:04] My course is our people. They are. I always think that out of my email list, probably, I don't know what the numbers are. 5% will buy something that I'm I make and those people are prepared to pay. I don't know how much my courses have been. I think, I think, I think the highest price, no stress WordPress was, which is discontinued now. [00:32:26] Not in know fairly indefinitely. I think there was about 800. For that. So, between sort of 4, 5, 6, 7, 800 bucks for a course, those people are absolutely. I mean, the web flow, cause it isn't that at all. I think it starting at two nines. So that's, that's, that's a bit lower just to, just to get started with at the moment. [00:32:48] But I'm, I'm, I'm fairly convinced and I am delighted to appeal to people who are willing to invest in their education and their professional development and the tools [00:33:00] that they use as well for an easier life. And so actually ultimately get a return on that investment, in terms of faster builds and not having to worry. [00:33:10] About updating plugins and maintenance and stuff, breaking and having to fix things and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't really worry me. It's all. [00:33:19] Matt: Yeah. I mean, when you have somebody who's already, I did an article. I, again, if I was a professional podcaster, I would have this up, I think element or web flow. Let's just see if my site ranks first. It  [00:33:31] Dave: Oh, oh, harsh,  [00:33:33] Matt: Element or web. Oh yeah, it does. I'm on the first page. Okay. A little, a little bit down on the first page, if you Google element or web flow, but I say in defense of element or versus web flow, and this site publish this February of this year, God man, you just, I didn't even understand time anymore. [00:33:48] February 11th, 2021. When folks were talking about the price hike of element, or now I'm not here to argue whether or not the. The approach of what Elementor was doing with bugs and features and whatnot is fair or not. I didn't have anything against the price hike, if you will, for ELA mentor, because man, I feel like so many people are making money with elementary or. [00:34:12] That even if you bought their $1,000 a year for a thousand websites, I mean, if you're somebody who's producing a thousand websites, you're at least charging $2 for one of those websites, right. You're selling these websites for at least $2, you've doubled your money. Right? So I was never against the raising of the price because hopefully that raises value of all things WordPress. [00:34:34] But my point here is people are already spending money in the web flow world. Whereas. Hats off and kudos to you. You're selling courses in the WordPress world where a majority of people are used to free. So you already were fighting a battle that I've not been able to solve  [00:34:51] Dave: Yeah, there is. I mean, there is a sense isn't there because WordPress is open source. Everything should be. And you, you hear that all the time. And I think that's just going to be a constant issue. Really. One thing that when I actually looked at certainly for, certainly for the people that I'm M in my course out, and the people that I kind of want to help when you actually look at the price of Webflow, cause people say, God, man Webflow is so expensive. [00:35:13] I think, well, if you look at it, you pay an account. I won't go into all the massive details, but you pay an account plan fee, which is basically a single monthly families, about 24 books. Which allows you to build, buy all, to build onstage on a, on a web flow.io domain all your web flow sites you've got in development, and you can share those with clients and you could even just make those live on the S on the staging sub domain, if you didn't want to point a live domain of them. [00:35:41] So that's 24 bucks a month. It's basically similar to, if you've got like an Adobe creative cloud subscription or you've got an elemental license on it and a theme license, and it just allows you to use the platform. So that to me is like, well, that seems perfectly fair. And then you [00:36:00] pay a per site site plan fee as well, which I think is about 20 bucks a month. [00:36:05] Now people who are hosting. Crumbing websites onto, I could attend books a month hosting plan, and they're quite happy with all the configuration and the setup and everything that, that entails and possible performance issues and whatever, then absolutely. I mean, knock yourself out. [00:36:23] Brilliant. But if you compare to, I mean, let's just take a WordPress managed host, like Insta, for instance, I think Ken stir last time I looked, it was 20 bucks a month. Now w so, so for each live site, you've got a domain pointed to, to web flow. You're paying 20 bucks a month for that. I mean again, if you're not making at least $20 a month back from the website, then there's something wrong. [00:36:48] You, you, you really should be a book. Also with that. You also get like the CDN, you get all of the page speed stuff set up for you, and it's all done for the, the sites are blazing fast, absolutely brilliant. All green, like top of the range, kind of page speed scores, the host inside and out for you. [00:37:07] Security. So sorted out for you. All of the functionality seems to me in many ways, if you were a person who would appreciate managed hosting, and it seems to me that that is actually a pretty good deal overall,  [00:37:21] Matt: I tend to agree things get a little crazy when you start getting into the e-commerce world with web flow the way that they do pricing, I broke it all down in this, in this post. Although this post is now a few months old and I'll link that up. I'll try to link that up in the, in the show notes. [00:37:34] But  [00:37:34] Dave: was a simplified.  [00:37:36] Matt: Yeah. At the end of the day, like the trade-off again is support all in one platform. If you really wrestled with, I want to own everything for the sake of owning it, and it's a whole mind, it's hard to make that mental leap and appreciation leap. I don't have a better word right now, but like, it's hard to make that leap from WordPress if you're really stuck in that, in that  [00:38:01] Dave: Yeah, absolutely. And I would, I would say to anybody that it's not like, I certainly don't set say to everybody, you must use Webflow is far better than WordPress. That's actually not what I'm saying. He probably comes across that way. There are trade offs with everything, and if ownership. Or certainly a feeling of ownership anyway and having control over every single aspect of that, of your website and website workflow and everything else, if that is important to you, for whatever reason, that's great, but there's a trade off in the maintenance and the plugin updates and stuff, breaking and everything else. [00:38:37] That's the that's that's, that's the deal, you w you can't have your cake and eat it kind of thing. I think he's just true of everything in life. Same with Webflow, yep. You don't have all of those hustles, but Yeah. [00:38:48] you've got a platform where you are in a way renting the site from, from Webflow. [00:38:53] What if Webflow disappears overnight? There were all these concerns. I mean, I've got, I've got kind of, answers for all these [00:39:00] objections, but There are also just very, very quickly. One of the biggest objections is she's quite funny to me is about recurring income from care plans. [00:39:10] So people will say I've got a pretty good business making recurring easy money every month by charging clients to keep the website updated the WordPress website update. And make sure it doesn't, it doesn't break for them. What am I going to do about that with Webflow? Because he just works, what's the, what, what, what, where am I going to make this money? [00:39:29] My short answer is always, well, first, if all things were equal and you could build a website in WordPress or web flow, and let's also say that either of them would be appropriate for the project, Really recommend WordPress because it's prone to problems, it's prone to problems and it, and it breaks. [00:39:51] And you can charge the client forever in order to, just to be basically lightly. No, let them have a working website. It sounds a bit harshly. It sounds like I'm kind of over again things, but that's kind of how it is really. Now my view is the client, your clients don't care. About how you did something, all that, how long it took you, all the steps you took, they are, they only care about the result on all the clients are paying you for, for, for a care plan, just in terms of the maintenance side of it, not talking about anything else. [00:40:24] Well, the maintenance side of it, they are paying you so that their website is rock solid. Isn't down works perfectly, and it just doesn't have any issues. Well, why can't you charge the client for the. You've found a better or the best platform that you think for their particular needs for their project that has all that in place. [00:40:46] You've spent all this time and money learning the platform. Why not charge clients for that? I, I don't think clients particularly cared that you've got to update plugins. You've got to spend X amount of time doing that. I think it's a bit of a non argument, rarely.  [00:40:59] Matt: I think at some of the tiers on web load, there's a little phone number you can call, right. So good luck. Yeah. Calling yeah. Calling you got a dozen plugins doing. Things, you're not going to call PIP in and, and, WooCommerce, you're not going to call these people and get them on a conference call to figure out what your site is at the end of the day. [00:41:18] You look, you're paying for that support. And web flows. As far as I know, in the news web flows slated to be a IPO and, and be a publicly traded company here in the states. And they're a private company now, but they've raised over 140 million. So they're probably valued at billions. I don't even know what money is these  [00:41:33] Dave: Probably, yeah, exactly. yeah, MailChimp is worth what was it? 12 billion, or something like  [00:41:37] Matt: half the half the banana industry or the entire globe?  [00:41:41] Dave: So, so w what is money.  [00:41:43] Matt: yeah. What is money via Canva? Just raised Canva just got another 400 million valued@fortybillioncanva.com. It's just, I don't know, Dave, what are we doing wrong here? [00:41:57] Dave: Well, I'm I think I'm going to hang these [00:42:00] headphones up.  [00:42:01] Matt: I'm going to make a canvas course. What am I doing with Webflow? Here's how to make a template in Canva. Oh man. It's called WordPress to web flow. His name is Dave Dave for you can search for Dave for you can go to date for.com. You can search him on YouTube. You can go to WP two w f.com or pressed a web flow. [00:42:21] Dave, anything else that any other place that people should find you? Yeah. [00:42:24] Dave: The other thoughts that you've covered up. So everything there, my friend. Yeah. [00:42:27] Brilliant. Thank you very much.  [00:42:29] Matt: Fantastic stuff. It's my report. My report.com my report.com/subscribe. Hey, if you want to support the content happening here at the Matt report, go to buy me a coffee.com/matt report. You can join the membership there and be part of the, the news right now. It's about the, the WP minute. If you want to be involved in the news, you wanna have your hand in shape. [00:42:49] Our weekly WordPress news, the five minute dose of WordPress news every week@wpminute.com. Go to buy me a coffee.com/matt report. Buy me a coffee.com/matt report. Support the show. Thanks for listening. See you in the next episode. [00:43:01] If you like what you heard today, don't forget to thank our premier sponsor foods. Gallery. Check them out at food gallery. Check out their new woo commerce integration for selling photos with foo gallery, you want to support the show and you want to support WordPress news every week. Go to buy me a coffee.com/matt report. [00:43:18] Buy me a coffee.com/matt report. Join the membership. Join our discord. Take part in the conversation around WordPress news. Buy me a coffee.com/matt report. Thanks a foo gallery for supporting. ★ Support this podcast ★

Myself and Jack have some serious banter when Dave decided to no show, we chat about whatever we want