CONFLICTED

The MoU with Iran has broken down, war has returned to the Middle East, and so Aimen walks us through the events since the war re-ignited on 7th July. More than anything, the fighting now focuses on the Strait of Hormuz. In Iran's eyes, it has won control of the Strait as a spoil of war. In the rest of the world's eyes, freedom of navigation through the Strait remains a cast-iron principle of international law. Aimen and Thomas discuss: Why the US–Iran MoU collapsed over control of the Strait of Hormuz Iran's attacks on Gulf shipping and the return of the US naval blockade US strikes on Bandar Abbas and Iran's coastal military infrastructure GCC retaliation: Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE and Jordan confront Iran Trump assassination threats and divisions inside the US administration Saudi Arabia's internal debate over Iran and renewed war with the Houthis Houthi threats to close Bab al-Mandab and attack Saudi infrastructure Oman, NATO and Israel's roles in the widening Iran war Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this latest Conflicted Conversation, Thomas talks with Yaakov Katz, the former editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post and co-author of ⁠While Israel Slept: How Hamas Surprised the Most Powerful Military in the Middle East⁠. Yaakov explains: October 7 intelligence failure and Israel's missed warnings Hamas's ‘Jericho Walls' plan and ignored Unit 8200 alerts The Israeli conceptzia: why leaders believed Hamas was deterred Netanyahu's Gaza containment strategy and Qatari money policy Hamas as a political asset against Palestinian statehood Israel's overreliance on technology, SIGINT and border barriers Unit 504, HUMINT failure and the absence of agents in Gaza Gaza's tunnel network and Hamas's hidden underground military city Operation Guardian of the Walls and Israel's exaggerated ‘Metro' success Netanyahu's responsibility, Israeli division and the post–October 7 media war **PLUS: Yaakov answers listener questions! FOR SUBSCRIBERS ONLY!** Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find Yaakov on X: ⁠https://x.com/yaakovkatz⁠ And on Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/yaakov.katz⁠ And on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaakovkatz⁠ Yaakov's website: ⁠www.yaakovkatz.com⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this latest Conflicted Conversation, Thomas talks with retired US lieutenant general Ben Hodges, former commanding general of US Army Europe. Drawing on his experience at the heart of NATO's military leadership, Hodges explains: His proposed path to Ukrainian victory Ukraine's deep strikes on Russian oil and gas infrastructure Ukraine's campaign to isolate and recover Crimea Why Hodges overestimated the speed of Ukraine's victory The risk of Russia using nuclear weapons in Ukraine America's failure to define clear political objectives in war Ukraine's emergence as a European defence-industrial centre Why Western armies have been slow to learn from Ukraine Pentagon procurement and the military-industrial complex The NATO summit in Ankara and support for Ukraine The damage Trump has done to trust between NATO allies The geopolitical importance of Ukraine to Europe and the United States Why the Kremlin fears a successful democratic Ukraine Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As Aimen works hard to uncover the truth of what's going on in the region now that the MoU has been torn to shreds — or so it seems — and in recognition of Syria being taken off the State Sponsor of Terrorism list, we are rerunning this episode from last year where Aimen tells the story of his nephew who joined the jihad against the Assad regime. Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas discusses the true foundations of modernity with Clifton Crais, author of The Killing Age: How Violence Made the Modern World. Clifton explains: The Mortecene as an alternative to the Anthropocene Why global violence accelerated after 1750 How firearms destabilised traditional political orders The role of credit and debt in expanding slavery Global complicity beyond a simple West-versus-rest narrative The industrial destruction of whales, elephants and bison Vodun and other religious responses to predatory power What muskets can teach us about drones and AI Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special episode, we bring you an exclusive audio episode of ‘Undiscovered' the new YouTube-first documentary series from Conflicted's executive producer and Message Heard founder, Jake Warren. Jake sits down with the legendary journalist Robert Young Pelton to discuss the infamous battle of Qala-i-Jangi, which he experienced first hand, and how it changed the war on terror forever. In this episode they discuss: How Robert became a journalist and documentarian Robert's documentary ‘Heavy D and The Boys' Meeting and spending time with General Dostum The rumours and myths about General Dostum Being an eyewitness to the battle of Qala-i-Jangi Finding John Walker Lindh, the American Taliban The death of CIA officer Johnny Micheal "Mike" Spann Where the US went wrong in Afghanistan Find Robert on X: https://x.com/RYP__ And on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_robert_young_pelton_ And on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmfzgtljwtgY1IgXt2YGiFg Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Ross Field. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas sweats his way through a personally revealing exchange with Quinn Slobodian, Professor of International History at Boston University and the author of Hayek's Bastards: The Neoliberal Roots of the Populist Right. Quinn explains: Friedrich Hayek's “knowledge problem” and his defence of markets over central planning. Hayek's later theory of cultural evolution, inherited institutions, and the limits of universal market society. The split between “cultural Austrians” at George Mason University and “racial Austrians” around the Mises Institute. Murray Rothbard's move from courting anti-war hippies to building alliances with paleoconservatives and racial nationalists. Hans-Hermann Hoppe, anarcho-capitalism, secession, and racially homogeneous private communities. The Bell Curve, Charles Murray, IQ research, and the politics of scientific claims about race and inequality. The difference between ideas that are empirically false and ideas rejected because they are morally disturbing. The post-Cold War transformation of neoliberal enemies from communism to environmentalism, affirmative action, feminism, and welfare. The divide between neoconservatives and paleoconservatives over US foreign policy, nationalism, and the Iraq War. Whether Hayek's Bastards reveals a major genealogy of the modern Far Right—or exaggerates the influence of a provocative fringe. Visit Quinn's website: www.quinnslobodian.com Find Quinn on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/quinnslobodian.com And on Substack: https://zeithistoriker.substack.com Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As the Middle East wakes up to an unnerving new normal following the signing of the M.O.U., Aimen and Thomas turn their attention to something truly cutting edge: the AI Arms Race that is rapidly transforming the Gulf into the front lines of a truly global U.S.-China confrontation. Aimen and Thomas discuss: Iran's drone attacks on Gulf data centres. AI in missile defence and military targeting. The physical infrastructure behind cloud computing. Cheap Gulf energy and rapid data-centre construction. The UAE–Saudi competition for AI leadership. Sheikh Tahnoon, G42 and MGX. Saudi Arabia's HUMAIN strategy. The US–China global AI rivalry. Israel's cybersecurity and military-AI role. Whether AI-generated art can be genuinely creative. Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Yeganeh Torbati, the Iran correspondent for the New York Times, discusses her excellent new book Stolen Revolution: Betrayal and Hope in Modern Iran. Yeganeh explains how: The 1979 revolution promised justice but created clerical authoritarianism. Islamic law was subordinated to preservation of the supreme leader. Institutions created to help the poor became engines of economic corruption. The IRGC became a military-economic oligarchy. Khatami-era reformism failed by refusing to challenge the constitutional source of authoritarian power. Ahmadinejad promised to overthrow corrupt elites but merely installed new ones. Rouhani promised economic normalization but enabled even greater corruption. The destruction of all sources of organized opposition left protesters exposed to overwhelming violence. Foreign powers encouraged expectations they did not possess the strategy or commitment to fulfil. Iranian society continues to resist socially and culturally, making the future unstable rather than settled. Find Yeganeh on X: https://x.com/yjtorbati And on Instagram: ⁠www.instagram.com/yjtorbatireports Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, George Osborn draws on his excellent new book Power Play: Video Games, Politics and the Battle for Global Influence to reveal the hidden political power of video games. Once dismissed as a niche hobby, gaming has become one of the largest social environments ever created: a vast digital third space where billions of people form identities, build communities, and increasingly encounter politics — often aligned with authoritarian agendas. George explains: The history of video games: from arcades to global digital networks How gaming helped drive the modern technology revolution Why video games became the ‘third spaces' of the internet age Steam, online gaming, and the rise of digital communities How China controls and regulates gaming culture Saudi Arabia's investment strategy in gaming and esports Russia, information warfare, and influence operations in gaming Gamergate and the politicisation of gaming communities Steve Bannon, online culture, and the rise of populist politics Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find George on Bluesky: https://bsky.app/georgeosborn.bsky.social And on Instagram: www.instagram.com/george_e_osborn And his Newsletter: www.videogamesindustrymemo.com Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the wake of the recently published Memorandum of Understanding between the White House and the Iranian regime, Aimen and Thomas explore what the MoU means and reflect on everything they got wrong about the Iran War. They discuss: How the MoU is a strategic lifeline for the Islamic Republic How it legitimises Iran's proxy network, from Hezbollah to the Houthis How billions in frozen Iranian funds have already been released through Qatar — with American approval How the proposed $300 billion reconstruction fund for Iran has corruption written all over it How it enshrines the principle that Iran can charge for access to the Strait of Hormuz Whether Netanyahu lured Trump into a war he did not fully understand The collapse of the Abraham Accords' vision for a new Middle East If Conflicted itself has misread Trump, populism, and the future of American power Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Elizabeth Tsurkov returns for another Conflicted Conversation. This time, the conversation turns to Israel after October 7th. Elizabeth traces her own political journey from the Israeli right to a hard-won humanism, then explains how Israel's old security doctrine collapsed — and why the new one may lead not to safety, but to permanent war. Elizabeth and Thomas discuss: Israel's security doctrine after 7 October Israel's shift from deterrence to pre-emption Why deterrence without a political endgame failed Gaza, Hamas and the limits of military victory Hezbollah, Lebanon and Israel's buffer-zone strategy Israel's new "buffer zone" security perimeter Iran's missile threat and Israel's war with Tehran The Abraham Accords, IMEC and bypassing Palestine Why real Israeli fears may be producing the wrong answers Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Elizabeth's personal website: ⁠https://elizabeth-tsurkov.net/en/⁠ Find Elizabeth on X: ⁠https://x.com/LizHurra⁠ Find Elizabeth on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-tsurkov-79491b15/⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aimen returns to bring us up to date on all the latest manoeuvrings in the Middle East. Aimen and Thomas discuss: Trump's chaotic, micromanaged Iran diplomacy and reliance on inexperienced “real estate” advisers. Pakistan, Qatar, Oman, Turkey, and Egypt as flawed or compromised mediators with “skin in the game.” Why Aimen thinks Switzerland would be the proper neutral US–Iran mediator. Oman's tilt toward Iran amid assumptions of American decline and future Iranian regional weight. The UAE–Saudi split over Iran: Emirati hawkishness versus Saudi caution and strategic bruising. Saudi resentment over Yemen, Houthi attacks, Israel's freer hand, and lack of US security guarantees. Israel, Hezbollah, Lebanon, and Iran: efforts to decouple the Lebanon front from the US–Iran track Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hamza Abu Howidy returns for another Conflicted Conversation. Last time he appeared, he told us his personal story of growing up in Hamas-ruled Gaza, how he was imprisoned and tortured by Hamas for speaking out against their oppression, and how he entered into exile in Germany just before the 7 October attacks changed everything. This time he switches from Gaza to the West Bank, telling Thomas all about the other side of Palestine — a side which goes overlooked, but which is increasingly becoming a zone of almost unbearable conflict. Hamza and Thomas discuss: Settler violence as settler terrorism How Israeli settlements undermine the Oslo process Settlement expansion as a strategy to prevent a Palestinian state The shift from a two-state ideal to a one-state reality The Hardal movement and Smotrich's political world The Hilltop Youth: origins, ideology and violence The dual legal system in the West Bank The Yehuda Shmuel Sherman incident and the revenge attacks that followed E1 and the threat to a viable Palestinian state The West Bank economy after 7 October Palestinian municipal and national elections Israeli elections and the lack of hope for political change Israel's post-7 October security doctrine The Board of Peace and the problem of Hamas disarmament Arab disillusionment with resistance ideology Find Hamza on X: https://x.com/HowidyHamza Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm Find us on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠ ⁠And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Because Aimen is still away, we're taking this opportunity to introduce you all to our executive producer Jake Warren. A journalist and programme-maker, Jake not only had the idea for Conflicted, he is also the founder of Message Heard, the company that produces the show. Jake and Thomas discuss: Conflicted's origin story Jake's Hungarian-Jewish grandfather who escaped on the Kindertransport His early work for Vice Media in North Korea, Rwanda, and Lebanon How he won the trust of notorious Islamist preacher and organiser Anjem Choudary while covering his story Visiting the family of murdered soldier Lee Rigby How Jake first came across Aimen's story How Thomas and Aimen became friends Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/ Find Jake on X: https://x.com/TheJakeWarren Find us on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod And YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ConflictedYoutube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this latest Conflicted Conversation, Thomas talks with Tory MP Sir Jeremy Hunt. Over fourteen years of Conservative government, Hunt served as Culture Secretary, Health Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer. But in this discussion, Jeremy draws especially on his eventful year running the Foreign Office to argue against Western defeatism and to make the case for liberal democracy. Sir Jeremy discusses: The view from inside power during Britain's 2010–2024 crisis years Britain's imperial inheritance, post-Brexit identity, and the “Global Britain” problem Trump's 2018 NATO shock and Hunt's case for higher European defence spending China, Russia and Iran as the new autocratic challenge to liberal democracy Yemen and the Stockholm Agreement as a tragic test of humanitarian diplomacy Iran, hostage diplomacy, the JCPOA and the limits of Western coercive power Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm Find us on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small and Ross Field and edited by Mariana Ramirez-Zablah. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Is Donald Trump mad? Or is a practitioner of the Madman Theory — and therefore not mad at all? James D. Boys, author of ⁠⁠U.S. Grand Strategy and the Madman Theory: From Nixon to Trump⁠⁠, argues that the Madman Theory is not madness, but the performance of madness: a tactic by which a sane leader feigns irrationality to make an adversary believe there is even a one percent chance of overwhelming, disproportionate force. In this new Conflicted Conversation, Boys explains: What the Madman Theory means Donald Trump, unpredictability and Trump Derangement Syndrome Nuclear strategy, Eisenhower, and Cold War brinkmanship Barry Goldwater, the Cuban Missile Crisis and the politics of nuclear fear Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger and the Madman Theory in Vietnam Trump's use of Madman tactics against North Korea, Iran, NATO and trade partners Whether Trump's second-term grand strategy is chaos, coercion or calculated geopolitical pressure Follow James on X: ⁠https://x.com/jamesdboys⁠ Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠ *** ⁠⁠DONATE to Thomas's fundraising campaign!⁠⁠ *** *** ⁠⁠WATCH the campaign's documentary film! ⁠⁠*** Find us on X: ⁠⁠https://twitter.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. ⁠⁠Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

*** ⁠⁠DONATE to Thomas's fundraising campaign!⁠⁠ *** *** ⁠⁠WATCH Thomas's documentary film!⁠⁠ *** Aimen is back with a huge amount of behind-the-scenes information on what's been happening in the Middle East in the past three weeks—especially on the real reasons the UAE withdrew from OPEC, and what's been going on inside Donald Trump's head as he tries to chart a course to victory in the Iran War. Aimen and Thomas discuss: The recent discovery of HUGE shale oil reserves in the UAE The Mar-a-Lago deal the UAE struck with Trump Why the recent OPEC shake-up had NOTHING to do with Saudi Arabia The truth about UAE and Saudi attacks on Iran Did the UAE, Saudi, and Qatar really beg Trump not to resume the war? How Iran's military capability remains STRONGER than people think The corruption behind Pakistan's mediation efforts in the Iran War The benefits and liability of Trump as a War Leader Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas talks to Marc David Baer, Professor of International History at the London School of Economics, about his new book Children of Abraham: The Story of Jewish-Muslim Relations. Marc discusses: The recent stabbing in Golders Green, North London The myth of utopian co-existence and the counter-myth of total antagonism The earliest encounters of Jews and Muslims in Arabia The Qur'an's mixed messaging about Jews The reality of Sharia dhimmitude laws Jewish-Muslim relations in the Khazar Kingdom, in Al-Andalus, and in the Ottoman Empire Colonialism and the rupture of Jewish-Muslim relations Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and Jewish-Muslim solidarity today Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠⁠⁠ Find Marc on X: https://x.com/MarcDavidBaer1 Find Conflicted on X: ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠ And YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As we eagerly await Aimen's return to Conflicted next week, today Wassim Nasr returns to the show. As only Wassim can, he draws on his expertise of the Sahel to explain the remarkable events in Mali over the past several weeks — events which Aimen forecast on the show back in January. Wassim explains: France's failed counterterrorism strategy in Mali JNIM's emergence from AQIM and local insurgencies Iyad Ag Ghaly's political and jihadist leadership The junta's repression and strategic miscalculations The JNIM–FLA alliance in northern Mali The 25 April 2026 coordinated attacks Negotiating with Islamists after the War on Terror Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Wassim on X: https://x.com/SimNasr Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas talks to Sir Vince Cable, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats in the UK, about his new book Eclipsing the West: China, India and the forging of a new world. Sir Vince discusses: Postcolonial state-building, development economics, and his formative experiences in Kenya Globalisation, financialisation, and the legacy of the 2008 financial crisis The rise of China and India as “superstates” in a new tripolar world Geo-economics, US–China rivalry, and the breakdown of the liberal international order Democracy versus authoritarianism and the crisis of liberal governance Ideology, nationalism, and the limits of rationality in geopolitics Multipolarity, global disorder, climate crisis, and the future of world order Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠ And YouTube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small & Ross Field and edited by Lizzy Andrews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aimen's in the thick of it this week so isn't able to appear on the show. Sitting in for him is Elizabeth Tsurkov, a Russian-Israeli researcher and analyst, and a doctoral student at Princeton University. During field research in Iraq in 2023, she was kidnapped by Kata'ib Hezbollah and held in captivity for over two years, suffering torture and solitary confinement. In what we hope will be the first of many appearances on Conflicted, Elizabeth discusses: Saddam Hussein's faith campaign and the rise of Shia religious politics in Iraq The Sadrist movement in Iraq and Muqtada al-Sadr The politicisation of sectarian identity in post-2003 Iraq Iraqi militias as criminal-political enterprises engaged in in theft, extortion, oil smuggling, and dollar smuggling The difference between Iraqi militias and Lebanese Hezbollah The impact of militia rule on ordinary civilian life Iraq's extreme inequality despite its oil and gas wealth The 2003 Iraq War and the debate over American responsibility Iraqi elite agency and the failures of Iraq's political class The 2010 Iraqi election crisis and Nouri al-Maliki's return to power The Iraqi constitution and the failure of constitutional democracy Iraq's dependence on oil revenues and the Strait of Hormuz The impact of the current Iran war on Iraq's economy Iranian attacks on Iraqi oil exports and oil tankers The U.S. military presence in Iraq after ISIS American influence over Iraqi prime ministerial politics Nouri al-Maliki, Mohammed Shia al-Sudani, and Ali al-Zaidi Fa'iq Zaidan and the power of Iraq's judiciary Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Elizabeth's personal website: https://elizabeth-tsurkov.net/en/ Find Elizabeth on X: https://x.com/LizHurra Find Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabeth-tsurkov-79491b15/ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to journalist Tim Weiner about his new history of the CIA in the 21st century, The Mission, and about the enduring tension between intelligence gathering and covert action. Drawing on four decades of reporting, Weiner argues that the CIA's greatest failures arise when it abandons its core purpose of understanding the world in favour of trying to change it. Weiner explains: How he began covering the CIA during the Reagan era and what drew him into intelligence reporting Why the CIA is best understood as an instrument of presidential power, not an independent actor The agency's post–Cold War collapse and its loss of mission before 9/11 How the War on Terror transformed the CIA into a global counterterrorism and paramilitary force The origins, logic, and consequences of torture, black sites, and the failure of interrogation The intelligence failures behind the Iraq War and how ‘facts were fitted around the policy' The rise of drone warfare under Obama and the normalization of targeted killing Covert operations from Peru to Syria, including the limits and dangers of programs like TIMBER SYCAMORE The difference between espionage and covert action—and why only the former can prevent war and save lives Why the greatest danger today is a president who ignores intelligence while using the CIA's coercive power Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠ And YouTube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small . Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thomas expresses his growing conviction that President Trump has utterly mishandled the Iran War, while Aimen describes: how the final, fatal phase of the Islamabad peace talks was a utter humiliation for Trump; what's going on inside the heads of GCC leaders regarding the White House's leadership; and the Islamic Republic's new delay tactics. Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to bestselling novelist and historian Jack Carr. A former Navy SEAL sniper, Carr talks about his phenomenal book Targeted: Beirut: The 1983 Marine Barracks Bombing and the Untold Origin Story of the War on Terror as well as his upcoming novel The Fourth Option. Jack describes: His path from childhood fascination with war to becoming a U.S. Navy SEAL sniper SEAL training: Hell Week, mental fortitude, and what separates those who quit from those who don't Boarding Iraqi oil tankers: enforcing sanctions at sea and policing the post–Gulf War international order His experience as a sniper in Iraq and Afghanistan The 1983 Beirut barracks bombing and its role in shaping modern terrorism and U.S. foreign policy The mistakes in US counter-terrorism policy: how limited responses can shape enemy strategy over time From warfighter to writer: how Carr's military experience informs his novels and nonfiction on the War on Terror Jack Carr's official website: https://www.officialjackcarr.com/ Find Jack on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jackcarrusa/ Find Jack on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jackcarrusa/ Find Jack on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JackCarrUSA Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠ And YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small and edited by Alan Leer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aimen describes the counter-coup which has taken place inside the Islamic Republic against Mohammad-Bagher Ghalibaf, Speaker of the Iranian Parliament, the key to understanding the failure of the Islamabad peace talks. Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to journalist Jason Burke about his new book The Revolutionists: The Story of the Extremists Who Hijacked the 1970s. Jason explains: Why the origins of modern terrorism lie earlier than the Afghan jihad of the 1980s The global revolutionary ferment of the 1960s and 70s Why early terrorist attacks were often designed to attract attention rather than cause mass casualties The role of Palestinian militant groups in pioneering modern tactics like hijacking Connections between European radicals, Japanese militants, and Middle Eastern groups How states adapted to terrorism through new counterterrorism measures The shift from theatrical violence to mass-casualty and suicide attacks The relationship between secular revolutionary movements and later Islamist militancy The Iranian Revolution as a turning point in the evolution of political violence Why many common narratives about the origins of jihadism are incomplete Find Jason on X: https://x.com/burke_jason Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm Find Conflicted on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod And YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small and edited by Lizzy Andrews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After the peace talks in Islamabad fail as expected, the United States adopts Plan B: a complete blockade of all Iranian maritime trade. Aimen explains this latest move in the Iran War. Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aimen does his best to explain the sudden and somewhat unexpected ceasefire between the United States and Iran which was announced early on Tuesday. Aimen and Thomas discuss: Pakistan's role: what game are they playing? Russia's delicate balancing act between Iran and the GCC How GCC leaders cope with President Trump's erratic shifts in messaging and policy Did Netanyahu know about the ceasefire in advance? The potential coup in Lebanon which Israel's intervention stopped Whether Lebanon is included in the ceasefire or not What U.S. military hardware is on its way to the region Why European politicians and diplomats still support containment when it comes to Iran while being gung-ho against Russia How energy dependence helps explain the posture of Pakistan, Egypt, and Turkey How the Islamabad talks between Vance and Ghalibaf are likely to go down Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to journalist Oliver Bollough about his illuminating new book ⁠Everybody Loves Our Dollars: How Money Laundering Won⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Oliver and Thomas discuss: Iranian oil money flowing into London property Russian oligarch wealth parked in Western banks Al Capone to Miami: evolution of money laundering Jeffrey Epstein and elite financial fixers network $100 bills fuelling global criminal cash economy White House insiders profiting from crypto and stablecoins Chinese gangs laundering cartel money worldwide Hawala and ancient trade-based money transfer systems Find Oliver on Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/olbullough/⁠ Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠ And YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small and edited by Lizzy Andrews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to journalist and author Anand Gopal about his wonderful new book Days of Love and Rage, a profoundly moving and intellectually stimulating history of the Syrian revolution told from the perspective of the northern town of Manbij. Anand and Thomas discuss: Anand's first-hand witnessing of 9/11 How Anand embedded with the Taliban Revolution as a crisis of faith and collapse of social reality Manbij as a microcosm of the tensions of Syrian modernity The failure of Manbij's democratic experiment and the limits of liberalism How ISIS exploited both material grievances and liberal norms Baathism: egalitarian ethos vs authoritarian reality Find Gopal on X: https://x.com/Anand_Gopal Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠ And YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small and edited by Lizzy Andrews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As all sides in the Iran War escalate their attacks, another spectre looms on the horizon: Iran-backed sleeper cell agents across the world launching terrorist attacks against strategic assets — including in the West. Aimen opens the lid on this little-known dimension of the IRGC's activity. Aimen and Thomas discuss: How the U.S. will deal with the problem of Bandar Abbas before launching an amphibious assault on islands in the Gulf The recent escalation: the Houthis join the war, an AWACS plane destroyed in Saudi Arabia, a desalination plant attacked in Kuwait The history of the sleeper cell as a tool of revolutionary subversion The five types of Iranian sleeper cell Aimen's experience embedded in sleeper cells as a double agent How Iranian sleeper cells launder money The prevalence of sleeper cells in South America Aimen's work investigating the finances of sleeper cells How London restaurants are secret IRGC fronts Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aimen's back after a few days away uncovering the secret info and true motivations behind the Iran War. Today he and Thomas focus on the Lebanon front in the war, telling the story of how the Lebanese state was progressively undermined over several decades, as non-state actors acted like a cancer on the body politic — with the largest tumour being, of course, Hezbollah. Aimen and Thomas discuss: The method behind the madness of Pres. Trump's chaotic messaging. The likelihood of a U.S. assault on Iran's islands in the Gulf. Whether Gulf leaders are really egging the U.S. on to bring an end to the regime. The U.S.'s objective of 'regime destruction' and how that differs from 'regime change'. The failure of energy traders to price risk properly. Abdul Malik al-Houthi's speech on 26 March and what it reveals about his intentions The long history of Lebanon's experience of militant non-state actors and foreign intervention How Hezbollah was able to re-arm and re-build after the catastrophe of autumn 2024. How deep corruption within the Lebanese government and military is preventing the state from disbanding Hezbollah. What to think about all those seasoned analysts who are convinced that America will lose this war. Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Aimen has been called away for important last-minute insider meetings, so sitting in for him on today's episode is Nadwa Al-Dawsari, veteran researcher, conflict analyst, and policy advisor with 20 years of field experience in Yemen and the broader Middle East. Nadwa and Thomas discuss: How Yemeni tribalism really works The IRGC agents who are in control of Houthi war policy Houthi eschatological beliefs When the Houthis are likely to join the Iran War in force What the military capabilities of the Houthis really are The long shadow of the Stockholm Agreement Houthi techniques of indoctrination and control The growing Houthi presence in the Horn of Africa How the Houthis and Al Qaeda are now effectively allies Why Western decision-makers get the Middle East so disastrously wrong Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Find Nadwa on X: ⁠⁠https://x.com/Ndawsari⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to Harvard professor Sven Beckert about his new book Capitalism: A Global History. Sven explains: Why the history of capitalism matters for understanding the present How most histories of capitalism are too Eurocentric How merchant communities in the medieval Muslim world and other regions laid the foundations of capitalism How European merchants learned from and interacted with merchants in the Muslim world Trust networks in global trade, including family, religious, and city-based merchant networks How capitalism and state power grew together European divergence: why Europe became central to capitalism Effects of Ottoman control and European geopolitical weakness on Atlantic expansion Role of conquest, slavery, and colonial expansion in building capitalist societies Tension between capitalism's drive for unlimited growth and nature's limits Challenges to neoliberalism from the left and the populist right Find Sven on Bluesky: @svenbeckert.bsky.social Visit Sven's personal website: svenbeckert.com Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm Find Conflicted on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod And YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All eyes are on the Strait of Hormuz and Kharg Island as the United States and its allies struggle to wrest full control of the Arabo-Persian Gulf from the Islamic Republic of Iran. Aimen and Thomas lay out the whole story of this geostrategically vital region, from ancient times all the way up to this very morning—explaining why this war is happening, and how it is almost certainly to end. Aimen and Thomas discuss: How the Strait of Hormuz caused Noah's Flood The medieval Kingdom of Hormuz How the Gulf is always caught up in the Iranian plateau's endless boom-and-bust political cycle How Europeans staked a claim on Hormuz in 1507—and never really left The fact that the U.S. did indeed go into this war with a plan for Hormuz How the U.S. will take Kharg Island—and what they will do with it The ingenuity of Gulf Arab leadership in planning workarounds for the eventuality of the Strait being closed How European powers and other allies are really contributing to the war effort Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks with Ali Ansari, Professor of Modern Middle East History at the University of St Andrews. Prof. Ansari discusses: The depth and antiquity of Iranian culture His childhood experiences inside the Shah's inner circle The Shah's biggest mistake How the revolution could have better built upon what it inherited The huge incompetence and corruption that has undermined Iran's political economy How the new Supreme Leader is the IRGC's man The clarity of America's military aims alongside the opacity of its political aims The real weaknesses of the Iran Nuclear Deal How Iranians inside Iran feel about the regime and the war Follow Prof. Ansari on X: ⁠https://x.com/aa51_ansari Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm ⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠ And YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Iran has chosen its new Supreme Leader: Mojtaba Khamenei, son of the recently assassinated Ayatollah Khamenei. Who is he? What does he believe? And most importantly, is his coming to power the fulfilment of ancient prophecy? Aimen and Thomas discuss: Mojtaba's youth and his experience fighting in the Iran-Iraq War as a 17 year old How he became his father's primary gatekeeper, and how he used this to amass great power and wealth Mojtaba's self-belief: that he is "the Khorasani", a long-expected End Times figure in Shia eschatology The long story of Islamic apocalypticism and how the Islamic Republic has used medieval prophecies to justify its ambitions Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠⁠ Find us on X: ⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to two friends of the show about how Europe is responding to the war with Iran. In the first half, the Rt Hon Tom Tugendhat MP — former chair of the UK Foreign Affairs Select Committee and former UK Security Minister — discusses Britain's confused response to the conflict, and in the second half, French journalist Wassim Nasr explains France's position. Sir Tom and Wassim explain: The UK government's uncertain response to the Iran war What politicians mean when they talk about the ‘legal basis' for military action The lessons of the Iraq War and whether they are being misunderstood Iran's role in the insurgency against Western forces in Iraq The debate over designating the IRGC as a terrorist organization in the UK The state of the British military after decades of defence cuts The strategic controversy surrounding Diego Garcia and the Chagos Islands France's historic Arab Policy and its effort to maintain strategic independence in the Middle East France's military agreements with the UAE, Qatar, and Kuwait The E3 framework (France, Germany, UK) and its role in negotiations with Iran Macron's attempt to expand France's nuclear deterrent to cover Europe The evolving situation in Lebanon and Hezbollah's weakening position Intelligence cooperation between France, Israel, and regional partners Whether Europe is entering a new era of strategic independence Follow Sir Tom on X: https://x.com/TomTugendhat Follow Wassim on X: https://x.com/SimNasr Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm Find Conflicted on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod And YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With missiles streaking across Middle Eastern skies and the assassination of Iran's Supreme Leader sending shockwaves through the region, Aimen joins Thomas from a Dubai under fire to unpack a historic turning point. They discuss: Iran's unprecedented drone and missile strikes across the GCC and Israel Life under bombardment in Dubai and the regional military response The assassination of Ayatollah Khamenei and what it means for Iran's future Whether this war marks the death of the 1979 Islamic Revolution The internal dynamics of the Iranian regime at this critical moment The United States' strategic calculus and the question of escalation Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/⁠ Find us on X: ⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠ And Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Thomas Small. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this very special Emergency Episode, Aimen and Thomas discuss the Iran War, which began this morning with wide-ranging air strikes carried out by Israel and the United States against IRGC and Iranian regime targets, and which almost immediately resulted in Iranian counter-strikes against seven states in the region — including in Dubai, where Aimen lives. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to former BBC journalist Martin Plaut about his new book Unbroken Chains: A 5,000-Year History of African Enslavement, which tells the whole story of African slavery, a story far older and more global than the one that focuses only on the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Martin explains: How Africa's slavery story begins in the Nile Valley around 2900 BC Why the trans-Saharan slave routes remain less examined than Atlantic slavery What Islam did — and didn't — change about slavery in practice Indian Ocean slavery Oman's slave market in Zanzibar and its caravans that penetrated deep into central Africa Indigenous African slavery in Ethiopia and the Sokoto Caliphate The role of racial hierarchies and ‘slave blood' stigma within societies Barbary corsairs and European so-called ‘white slavery' Contemporary chattel slavery in Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Sudan, and Libya Why major institutions still prefer commemorating slavery in the past to confronting it in the present Follow Martin on X: https://x.com/martinplaut And his personal website: https://martinplaut.com/ Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm Find Conflicted on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod And YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced by Thomas Small and edited by Lizzy Andrews. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As Saudi Arabia celebrates Founding Day, and as the murky underbelly of GCC geopolitics is on everyone's minds, we're re-releasing this classic Conflicted episode from early 2022. Thomas & Aimen discuss: The deep history of Arabia The first foundations of Saudi Arabia The transition from British to American dominance in the Middle East Aimen's family history within the British imperial system The 1920 Iraqi revolt St John Philby (Abdullah Philby) The consolidation of Saudi Arabia under Ibn Saud Oil politics and the American-Saudi partnership Cold War spy-craft and intelligence networks in Saudi Arabia Espionage culture in the region The murder of Jamal Khashoggi Join the Conflicted Community here: https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm/ Find us on X: https://x.com/MHconflicted And Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted And Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod And YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ConflictedYoutube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. Produced and edited by Rowan Bishop. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices