Podcasts about World Trade Center

Vous aimez Home(icides) le podcast Bababam Originals ? Vous allez adorer nos autres créations originales ! Aujourd'hui, on vous invite à découvrir La Traque, le podcast qui raconte les courses poursuites les plus haletantes de l'histoire. Dans cette saison de La Traque, revivez l'une des plus grandes chasses à l'homme du 21e siècle, celle du terroriste Ben Laden. À la tête d'Al-Qaïda, l'une des plus grandes associations terroristes du début du 21e siècle, il a commandité les attentats des tours du World Trade Center qui marqueront pour toujours l'histoire de l'occident. Ennemi public numéro 1, sa traque restera l'une de celles qui marquera pour toujours l'histoire. Recherché par plusieurs forces armées pendant de nombreuses années et à travers le monde entier, revivez son incroyable traque.  Crédits : Production : Bababam  Textes : Cyril Legrais Voix : Anne Cosmao, Aurélien Gouas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Andrew Pudalov spent 15 years working his way up the ladder in the competitive ranks of NYC's financial industry. But the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center changed everything. "I was traumatized. My wife too. We have little kids. I lost good friends. One jumped. I could not believe the towers came down." Andrew, his spouse and their young family were ready for a change. So they headed west to Boulder, Colorado with very little idea what was ahead. With zero experience in the retail food industry, Andrew started Rush Bowls a company  that specializes in all-natural acai bowls and smoothies. Over the past 20+ years, the company has grown to over 50 locations across the United States with another 20 stores in development.  

 Clayton Morris is on a 9/11 Truth run! He's interviewed 9/11 Pilot Whistleblowers' Captain Dan Hanley; Int'l Center for 9/11 Justice's Ted Walter; Former Congressman Curt Weldon; Senator Ron Johnson, Firefighters Raul Angulo & Erik Lawyer, and now, RichardGage911 — all on the formerly taboo 9/11 truth subject.  We thank each of you who contributed to our successful fundraising campaign to hire a top PR consultant to get us out there. And it's working!! We got on Jimmy Dore with 345K Rumble subscribers, garnered 44.6K views, and got 923 thumbs-up! Now, here on Redacted, which has 2.7M YouTube subscribers, we have already reached 160K views with 13K thumbs up and 3K very positive comments — all in one day! The truth of 9/11 is finally Turning the Tide!And on Rumble, Redacted has 614K followers and the RG911 interview/presentation reached 51K viewers — in a day!  I told Clayton when he invited us to his platform that this is a graphically intense set of information and that his audience will want to see ALL of these hundreds of powerful images and videos.  Here's how he introduced us on his platform:“What really brought down the Twin Towers, the World Trade Center, on 9/11? Was it airplanes as they've led us to believe, or was it actually a controlled demolition? I think all evidence now points to the truth, that it was in fact a controlled demolition of the main Twin Towers and Building 7.No one perhaps knows more about this in the world than our next guest. You are really, I think, at the center of all of the evidence that's been compiled to prove that these were controlled demolitions. And yes, this material is extremely important for everybody to be aware of, so thank you for bringing it and having the courage, for so long, to bring this material out in pieces to your audience.And yeah, without the help of yourself and others, helping us put all of this information together over the years, it used to be a really taboo topic. It used to be, ‘oh, 9/11 Truther, you're a conspiracy theorist.' And I think overwhelmingly, most Americans believe that something massively fishy happened on that day. They do not believe the official narrative.Can you share this with everyone, because what we're going to go through today is deep evidence? We're going to talk molten metal, we're going to talk specifics with these buildings. So buckle up! But before we get there, before I turn things over to Richard to walk us through all of this evidence, I might interject, but I'm going to be watching. So for the next 45 minutes, Richard is going to take us through a deep dive of exactly how this happened.”And then, I went off, and he just took it all in! Support the show

Meet Tricia Copeland. She is an award-winning author of books for youth and young adults. Mostly she writes fantasy books, but as we learn during this episode, she also does write some romance books.   Tricia says that as a child she hated writing. Even so, she went to school and eventually she went to college where she received a degree in Microbiology. She also attained a Master's degree. She then went to work for a chemical company. After four years she found herself beginning a journey of technical writing and writing patterns and supporting materials.   After a few years Tricia became a stay-at-home-mom for a time. She tells us how she loved to tell stories and entertain her children.   We learn how she wrote her first fiction book series in 2015-16 about her time facing anorexia. In real life, she faced this and overcame it. She then began writing fantasy youth books and realized not only that she could write, but that she did not hate writing at all. She has written several series and has plans for more.     About the Guest:   Tricia Copeland is the critically acclaimed and award-winning author of Kingdom of Embers, To be Fae Queen, Lovelock Ones, and Azreya, Aztec Priestess, and dozens of other titles. She is the host of the Finding the Magic Book Podcast who weaves magical stories about love, courage, and finding your passion.   Tricia began her author journey with a women's fiction series, the Being Me series, which is an adaptation of her experience with anorexia. Afterwards she quickly pivoted to her favorite genre, fantasy. Her young adult fantasy series highlight themes including resilience, perseverance, faith, loyalty, trust, friendship, family, and love. They include the Kingdom Journals and Realm Chronicles series that find witches, vampires, and fae fighting an evil spirit determined to end them all. She tempers the high stakes drama in these books with her fun rom coms in the Perfect romance series.   Tricia Copeland believes in finding magic. She thinks magic infuses every aspect of our lives, whether it is the magic of falling in love, discovering a new passion, seeing a beautiful sunset, or reading a book that transports us to another world. An avid runner and Georgia native, Tricia now lives with her family and four-legged friends in Colorado. Find all her titles including contemporary romance, now penned under Maria Jane, young adult fantasy, and dystopian fiction at www.triciacopeland.com.   Ways to connect with Tricia:   https://triciacopeland.com https://www.facebook.com/TriciaCopelandAuthor/ https://www.instagram.com/authortriciacopeland/ https://twitter.com/tcbrzostowicz https://www.tiktok.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.youtube.com/@triciacopelandauthor https://www.amazon.com/stores/Tricia-Copeland/author/B00YHN5Q4G https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/14055439.Tricia_Copeland https://www.bookbub.com/authors/tricia-copeland     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hello everyone. We're really glad to have you here, wherever you may happen to be listening in from. We're really glad that you're listening to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Michael hingson, and our guest today is Tricia Copeland. Tricia is a prolific author. I use that word absolutely without any any concern, a prolific author of children's books, especially in the fantasy world. So she has been doing this a while and and also has an interesting story just of her life to tell. So we're going to go into all of that and delve in and see where we go. So Tricia, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Tricia Copeland ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael, I appreciate you having me, and I do want to make a little edit to that intro. Okay, go ahead. My books are young adult to New Adult books, so ages 13 plus mostly, all right,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 so young adult to new adult. All right, that's fair. So how do you feel that your books fall into the range of things like the Harry Potter series and so on, sort of the same age groups,   Tricia Copeland ** 02:40 right? Genre adjacent, I have a series, The Kingdom Journal series, which includes three witches that have to break a curse on the witch lines. So the witches have to find each other as well as figure out how to break the curse using various forms of magic. So not really the same as Harry Potter, but definitely with with the witches, and the kind of contemporary world that Harry Potter is. But actually, I won't say that, because I haven't I think Harry Potter is mostly in the contemporary world, right? I didn't read all the books. I have to admit that he's   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 somewhat in the contemporary world, but, but I was thinking more of from a standpoint of the same type of age group.   Tricia Copeland ** 03:25 Yes, I think a younger reader. I think people started reading Harry Potter maybe around 10 or 11. And these books have older teenagers to start, age 1718, so 13 Plus is a good indicator. I think the other   Michael Hingson ** 03:42 thing I would observe about Harry Potter is that there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily teenagers or young adults, including me, who have read them and enjoyed them. I think that that Harry Potter certainly brought an interesting dimension to reading for teenagers especially, and hopefully young adults, because a lot of people did catch on to them, and they they had a great theme, and you do some of the same sorts of things by virtue of the fact of what you're writing and who you're writing it for,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:17 right? They definitely caught adult eyes and hearts and minds too   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 well, tell us somewhat about the early Trisha growing up and so on. Love to learn a little bit more about you, and then we can talk about whatever we feel is relevant to talk about the early Tricia,   Tricia Copeland ** 04:35 right? Well, I grew up in rural South Georgia, small town in south Georgia, and always loved reading and hiking and the outdoors, and very quickly, knew that maybe I didn't want to be in a small town forever. So I went to college in Atlanta, and I got a degree in microbiology, and from there, I got a master's. Degree, and I started my career in Central Research and Development at a chemical company, a large chemical company. So I was looking at making chemicals from microbes. And that was very exciting. That was my dream job that I'd always wanted. So that was very cool to be able to achieve that goal, and I actually didn't like writing until I started doing more technical writing with papers and patents.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 Technical writing can be boring, but people could make it more exciting than oftentimes they do. I would say I've had to do some of it. I understand   Tricia Copeland ** 05:39 well, you have to like the topic, right? If you don't like the topic, you're not going to like the paper,   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 right? But also, I think that a lot of technical writers write and it's all very factual, but I think even in technical writing, it would be better if writers could do some things to draw in readers. And I've always felt that about textbooks. For example, my master's degree and bachelor's degree are in physics, and I've always maintained that the the physics people who write these books, who are oftentimes fairly substantial characters in in the genre, if you will, or in the field, could do a lot more to interest people in science and physics by rather than just doing these technical books, telling some stories along the way, and bringing people in and making people relate more to the topic. And they don't do that like I think at least that they should.   Tricia Copeland ** 06:36 I guess that can be said, maybe for every technical Yeah. Area,   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 yeah, it would be nice if technical writers spend a little bit of time, but of course, then the other side of it is that the industry doesn't want that. So what do you   Tricia Copeland ** 06:54 do? It may be a catch 22 on that one   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 might be, but that's okay. So how long did you stay working at the tech at the chemical companies and so on?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:06 I was in the lab for four years, and then I moved into the patent Legal Group. So I began my career as a Patent Agent, and now that's what I do for a living. My day job is that I help clients draft and file their patent applications.   Michael Hingson ** 07:22 So you have your own business doing that. I do, yes, oh,   Tricia Copeland ** 07:28 well, I write by day and I write by night.   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 Yeah, well, that can be pretty exciting, though. You get all sorts of interesting things to write about. I   Tricia Copeland ** 07:40 do I meet a lot of cool people that are inventing cool things.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So here's the question, do you ever find that what you write about during the day influences you, and you want to use some of that, or the general concepts of some of that, at night, when you're doing your your fiction writing?   Tricia Copeland ** 07:58 I haven't done that yet, I did write one dystopian fiction about a viral pandemic, and that touched on a little bit of my background in microbiology and genetics, but not anything that my clients have done   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 well. So you got into the patent field when you when you started doing that initially, were you doing it for a company, or did you just leap out on your own and start to have your own business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:30 Yes, I was doing that for a company. Okay? And how long did you do that? I was at that company   Tricia Copeland ** 08:35 about a year and a half. And at the time, we lived in Pennsylvania and outside of Philly. So then we had a job change, and we moved to Denver, so I took a little time off to be with my kids before I started my business.   Michael Hingson ** 08:53 So how long ago did you start the business?   Speaker 1 ** 08:57 In 2012 so 13 years doing it a while? Wow,   Michael Hingson ** 09:01 okay, and obviously you're having some success because you're still doing it.   Tricia Copeland ** 09:05 I am. Yes, I love helping my clients, and feel like I can definitely give them a value add   Michael Hingson ** 09:14 if you're not giving something away. What's probably the most interesting patent that you helped somebody work on attaining   Tricia Copeland ** 09:24 I will say, I worked with an inventor a year ago, and amazing man, he had had his career in education and teaching, and he developed a set of blocks to help people or Help kids. I should say, learn the parts of speech so you could put the together, the blocks, whether it was a subject, verb, pronoun, noun, adjective, adverb, and I learned parts of speech that I never knew existed from helping them with this application, and I was very excited. To help him get his patent. That's kind of cool.   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Yeah, I am fair. I'm not sure I know all the parts of speech, but I remember being involved in high school well and in elementary school and diagramming sentences and learning a lot about the different or a number of the different parts of speech. Not sure I necessarily remember all of them extremely well, so I probably split infinitives and well, what do you do?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:28 Yes, I hated sentence structures.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, so what got you started then, since you were writing patents for people and so on, and helping people in securing patents. What got you then started in dealing with fiction writing, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 10:49 Well, when my kids were very young, I was a stay at home mom, and most of my days were spent chasing them around, occupying them, entertaining them, shuttling them from one place to another. So I realized in the evenings I was bored. I did my mind didn't have enough to occupy it. And I was about, I think it was about 38 and, you know, looking at my 40 year old birthday and thinking, huh, well, and I maybe it was like my 20 year high school reunion. I don't know why it coincide coincided, but I started thinking about my early college years I developed anorexia, and thinking about that time in my life and how poignant it was that I was able to recover from that disease and really gain some life skills from that experience. So I started a story that was a fictionalized account of my experience with anorexia and recovering for anorexia. So my first series, called the being me series, is a four book series about a character named Amanda who develops anorexia and then is able to recover.   Michael Hingson ** 12:01 So what caused if you understand, or, man, I don't know a lot about anorexia, Anorexia, and probably have some misconceptions about what I'm about to ask, but what, what caused it? Why did you develop that condition?   Tricia Copeland ** 12:16 Well, there's a lot of I mean, it happens differently for a lot of people, I think anorexia is a lot about control and having control over your environment. And I got there was a number of factors that I was depressed and not happy about not feeling like I was achieving, maybe what I should be achieving, and instead of someone might have turned to alcohol or drugs to alleviate those stressful feelings. I channeled all that into Okay? Well, if I'm just thin and if I just look good enough, then everything will be fine. And obviously, once your brain starts to get in that cycle, it just compounds on itself. You can't stop yourself from thinking that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and what helped you get out of doing that? Was it writing or what? What really caused you to realize that ain't the way to go?   Tricia Copeland ** 13:16 Yeah, I almost died. That was it very it was a low point. And really, you know, if I didn't do something different, if I didn't let people help me do something different, I would not have made it. So really, you know, a lot of that is like educating people how serious eating disorders are, as well as how helpless sometimes the person that is experiencing them is in being able to help themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 And you said that this happened somewhat in your your college years.   Tricia Copeland ** 13:53 Yes, I was 20.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Were there a lot of pressures were, were people criticizing you in any way that helped contribute to it, or was it sort of really   Tricia Copeland ** 14:04 internally? Part of it was internally. Part of it was, you know, what I thought people's expectations I was in. I was at a engineering school and I was a biology major, so maybe that wasn't the best place for me. Everybody was very high in performing. Yeah, yeah. There are many, many factors, I think, and just my my brain that was not processing things, maybe as realistically as they could have been processed.   Michael Hingson ** 14:33 But what you eventually did about it was to write a series about it, so clearly you were able to move beyond it, and then, if you will, talk about it,   Tricia Copeland ** 14:45 right, right? So I went into inpatient recovery, and then was able to get the help that I needed with therapist and psycho psychiatrist and support groups, and that was a big help. And then, yes, 20 years later, I. Wrote a series about it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:02 Well, that's pretty cool. And again, it's I'm always one who admires people who are able to and willing to talk about things. I went to an event last year was the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, and the Cherry Blossom Festival, which happens every April, is a celebration of American history, and they'll bring people in who have some relationship to an historic event, or who have relatives who were so for example, the great grandson of President Grant was at this event, but one of the people who was there was a former secret service agent who rode in the car behind John Kennedy when he was in Dallas and assassinated, and it took him 45 years to get to the point where he could come out of his experiences enough to start to talk about it, and I just have always admired people who do that. For me, being in the World Trade Center on September 11 and getting out, I never really viewed it as all that traumatic, but I guess it was, but my way to deal with it was, and I realized it much later, but we had so many newspaper reporters who wanted to know about the blind guy who got out of the World Trade Center. I talked about it, I mean, answered everyone's questions. And that was ironically, I love to pick on the media, but ironically, it was the media that really probably helped me move forward from September 11 the most.   Tricia Copeland ** 16:41 Yeah, I can imagine that was a lot of processing that you were able to do, as you talked about it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:48 People asked all sorts of questions, some really good questions, some not so good questions. And we got to observe all sorts of different types of press people. We had one Italian film crew who came to our house, there were 13 people, most of whom didn't really seem to do a whole lot, but they were there. And then there was a Japanese crew that came. And I think there were two people. It's just amazing what you see and what you learn. And for me and my wife, both now my late wife, but both, both of us love to observe and study and really think about what all these people are doing and how they do it, and we use it as ways to help us learn more about things, if you will, studying and being a student. I think of life as always an important thing,   Tricia Copeland ** 17:39 right, yeah, and I guess everybody reacts different to trauma and how you can process that everybody needs a little bit different. But yes, if you could look at things through a learning lens, that can definitely help too.   Michael Hingson ** 17:52 So you wrote the being me series. How many books are in that series? Four books, four books. Okay, and so, how long ago did you write those?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:03 I published them between 2015 and 2016   Michael Hingson ** 18:07 Okay, did you self publish or I do? Yes, you still do. Okay, great. Well, all right, and then what? What made you decide to then continue and start going into sort of teenage and so on, fiction and fantasy and so on, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 18:31 I realized that I just loved writing, and it was something that I didn't want to stop doing. So when I looked around for my next genre to write in, it was very obviously fantasy. For me. I read fantasy from a very young age. I loved Merlin and King authors legends and the Lord of the Rings and all of those books as a young person and a young adult, and that's just what I wanted to write. So my first book, interestingly enough, my editor sent it back to me and said, This is not fantastical enough. You need to make it more paranormal. So it took a minute to make that switch. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:15 book was that   Tricia Copeland ** 19:16 that is drops of sunshine and it is mirrored off an experience I had. I was a camp counselor at a camp for the blind when I was in I guess after my freshman year of college, and the campers in my story have these extra sensory skills where they can read people's minds. That was the paranormal aspect of my book, and that's not known in the beginning the story to our main character, and then she discovers that these kids have this special talent, and that was how my fantasy books started out. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 Then where did it go from   Tricia Copeland ** 20:01 there? Then I jumped into the witches with the kingdom Journal series. I developed a character that was a vampire or is a vampire witch hybrid, and so she has a vampire mother and a witch father, but she doesn't know who her father is. She's never met him. And to make things a little bit harder, vampire witch Hyderabad are not allowed, but either the witch lines or the vampires, so both the vampires and the witches got together and said, these beings are too dangerous. We're not going to allow them in our society. And if she's discovered, then she'll be killed. That was the first character, Alina, and she's and to give her just a little more stress, I put her in a human High School, so now she pretends, you know, can't pretend to be a witch. Can't pretend to be a vampire. She needs to be human too. And, yeah, so that was a really fun book to write, and that's the series where the trinity of witches has to come together, so she has to find the other two witches of the Trinity, and they each get to tell their story in the books too. So that's why it's called the kingdom journals. It's a little bit of a journal format, so each character gets to tell their own story as well as telling the overall plot line of the series. How   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 do you come up with these characters and create these stories? I mean, it's very imaginative. I wouldn't have thought of it. How do you, and I'm sure other people say that, but how do you create the characters? How does all that   Tricia Copeland ** 21:32 work? Yeah, I set out, funny enough, I set out to write a vampire series that was my vampire is my favorite fantasy characters. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna write a vampire series. It's not you don't want to do it too far out from what most people write or most people think of vampires. But I wanted my vampires to be a little bit different from the other vampires and other series. So I had this idea of making the vampire witch hybrid and her set in a human High School, and what would that look like? And then the challenge? I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with the challenge, but somehow I came up with this curse, and the curse was on the witch line, so it very quickly morphed into more of a witch book and the magical side of things, but the vampire characters are still there, and I explore them a little bit, although not as much as the witches.   Michael Hingson ** 22:27 Do you find that the characters essentially tell you what they want to be and who they are and why they do what they do. How much are the characters involved in your writing process? I've heard other authors say that that in some of the fiction things, the characters really create the story   Tricia Copeland ** 22:47 they do. I feel like my books are very character driven. So how I usually start with the idea for a character and think of their personality, their challenges, what I want, what themes I want to show with that character and then build the world sort of around that character. So it shows those themes and those character traits and what they're overcoming, either in their personal life or in their their physical life, right? But I do have characters that go off script. In the second book, kingdom of darkness. I have a character who we're not sure if he's a good guy or a bad guy. The main character thinks that he may be trying to delude her into thinking he's good when he's not really good. But I wrote him so well, like he was so nice that I couldn't make him a villain. So he became, I rewrote the story a little bit. I'd written it in my mind, I guess, but I rewrote it a little bit. So he did end up being a villain. And then somehow he got his whole own book, so he gets to star in his whole book after that.   Michael Hingson ** 23:54 And does he stay a villain? No, he   Tricia Copeland ** 23:57 didn't stay. He didn't was never, I mean, I kind of wrote it so the main character thought he was a villain, but in the end, I didn't make him a villain.   Michael Hingson ** 24:06 Well, I like books like that. I yeah, I think that most creatures are generally pretty nice.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:14 We would hope so,   Michael Hingson ** 24:16 although I don't know that that bears necessarily are overly generally nice to people, but, you know, who knows? Yeah, that doesn't mean they're evil either. Well, no, yeah.   Tricia Copeland ** 24:27 I mean, they're just living their life, right? That's they need their food sources. Is just like we need our food sources. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 I'd rather not be their food source, though, but that's okay, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 24:39 Yeah, and I don't know. I do struggle with, like, evil or antagonistic characters, because I'm, I don't like the idea that there's a character that is purely evil for no reason. So that is, that's always a grapple in an author's mind. I think,   Michael Hingson ** 24:56 well, and you know, I'll go back to Harry Potter. Modern Of course, we have Lord waldemart, who was definitely evil. But even so, the way she created the characters and the way she crafted the books, which probably in some ways, are similar, just in a process of what you do, it's not necessarily overly graphically evil. Even if there's evil, it isn't so graphic that you you you become totally adverse or against it. Evil or bad things are there, but it's all on how you present it. That's why I like books that are essentially puzzles, if you will, because they leave a lot of things to your imagination, and they give you the ability to as a reader, think about it, but as a writer, you also are essentially drawing the reader in to where you want the reader to go, but, but they're puzzles, rather than just some graphic thing, talking about all these horrible, mean, nasty things that a character may do.   Tricia Copeland ** 26:08 That's true, and it's all perspective, right? So the quote, unquote villain in my series is out to destroy all the vampires. But then you meet vampires that are good vampires, right? And you think, Huh, well, maybe this one vampire shouldn't be destroyed, because this vampire is not acting in a mean or hurtful way. So many sides to those questions,   Michael Hingson ** 26:33 yeah. Well, so the Kingdom series. How many books are in that one?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:38 There are four books in the main series, and there's a prequel to that series, okay?   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 And then what happened? What happened after that series?   Tricia Copeland ** 26:48 So in the finale, kingdom of war, my witches were going to have this huge battle against a vampire army that the evil witch created to, you know, battle the good witches. Yeah, she put which souls in the vampires. So that made them sort of like super vampires. But anyway, my witches needed an army, and I thought who would be a good character to be, to have an army that can come help the witches. So, yeah, the beings I thought of were fairies, and I created a queen Titania, is her name, who had an army who would come help the witches battle these vampire witch soul hybrid be. And when I created her, she just kind of took on her own character, and I quickly morphed that into what was her backstory, what were struggles? Where was she living? Where would the spay army come from? And that is what kind of launched my realm chronicle series, that the finale is coming out next month. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:10 that's that's pretty cool, and that that answers, again, the question we talked about earlier. The character actually took over, if you will, the writing, which is always cool, because that really shows how deeply you're invested in the characters and you let them have their voices, right?   Tricia Copeland ** 28:26 And I couldn't really give up the characters from my kingdom Journal series. They not, you know, not to give too much away, but they do complete their first quest and but this evil witch who's trying to destroy the vampires is still out there somewhere, so I couldn't completely let them go. So the witches from my kingdom Journal series come into the round Chronicles series, and the fairies and the witches are continuing to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Well, that's cool. Well, it's kind of neat to even though it's a new series, and I assume you can read one without reading the other, but still, it's neat that you, you follow on and help to craft and expand the world.   Tricia Copeland ** 29:11 It's been a lot of fun. And I, you know, selfishly, I didn't want to let go the characters. I felt like they had a little bit of story left in them, and I was able to do that through the round chronicle series. And yeah, it it was a lot of fun for me to   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 write. And now, of course, the question is, will there be a lot more story with them, which is part of the adventure that will come next? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 29:33 Yes, I'm, I'm thinking of that. I put my characters through a lot. So after I finished the finale, I felt like I just had to let them rest. I'm not really sure if I will continue with those same characters or or either pull out some different characters from that book to have their own stories. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 well, it's, it's going to be an adventure. No question about. It   30:00 definitely so   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 with your books. Do you have themes in your books? That is, are you? Are you trying to convey messages? Do you have themes and things that you want people to think about as they go through reading your books?   Tricia Copeland ** 30:16 I do. I feel like I like that in the book, and so I kind of embed that in my books too, but it's really more about what is the character grappling with. Not only, like I said in their physical world, maybe Queen Titania is the first female queen in her realm, and some of the old guard, other monarchs are not sure that a female should be able to rule, So that's sort of an out, outside challenge. But she also has inner conflict and challenges where she's not really trusting that she really can do it and she's really supposed to do it, and should she, you know, hand the crown to someone else who may be older or wiser or and so it does she have faith in herself. You know, would sort of be that theme there. And so each of the books have, I mean, it's not like I say, hey, the theme of this book is you need to believe in yourself, yeah, but just showing that the character arcs and how they overcome their challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 31:22 How do you again create those? How do you work those in what? What's the process that allows you to to put those themes in and and add them to the book and bring that value out? Right?   Tricia Copeland ** 31:37 I guess it's just how, the way I the challenges I choose to put in front of my characters and showing them fail at times, and showing them I do write first person, so you're getting a very up close view of what the character is thinking and feeling at all times. So I think that helps with a little bit of that, knowing that the character is struggling with whatever their um, XYZ, inner, inner turmoil that they're struggling with. And then, you know, just having other characters bounce things off of them, because the character themselves might not realize, hey, I I get anxious when I'm not in control of situations. So, you know, somebody might say, Hey, you're doing this again, stop.   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 That's why we have editors,   32:30 right,   Michael Hingson ** 32:33 and other people to help well, so you are you, but you clearly talk with your characters and you let them have a voice, which is, I think, something that adds a really great dimension to the writing that you do. And I think it's very important to do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 32:51 I hope so. I have very detailed character sheets for each of my characters. I create much bigger back stories than, probably, than really makes it into the books, just to be able to know, like, how my characters will react in situations, what their growth needs to be, where areas that I want to show that growth, and what's most important in their values, And how would they react to all the different challenges?   Michael Hingson ** 33:24 What caused you to bring fairies into it again? I think that's pretty imaginative. You were writing about witches of vampire. Fairies are are different. How did that come about?   Tricia Copeland ** 33:34 Honestly, I was at a book event, and a person was walking around with these postcards, and they were trying to get authors to write a short story for an anthology, and it had to be a fantasy genre, and it had to be a character with a mental health challenge. But the image on the postcard was of a fairy, and she was hunched in a meadow in these grasses, and she looked kind of anxious or scared, maybe even a little timid or worried. And I thought, Oh, that's a cool image. It was very striking with the green grass and her fairy wings and just her eyes were like had just a lot of feeling behind them. So it caught my eye. I never thought I'd write about fairies. I was looking for the Army for my witches, and I thought, well, you know, the fairies could be like the characters the witches go to. So it was just kind of happenstance that I happened to see this fairy character on a postcard and think, Huh, I could, you know, the fairies could be the answer.   Michael Hingson ** 34:44 And turns out, they were, they were Yes. So are all fairies girls? No, okay.   Tricia Copeland ** 34:51 I mean, fairies are much like humans in my world, except that my fairies have wings. They in. Middle Earth, which is just below earth. So they share our same bedrock. It kind of mirrors our Earth in my world. And they have rings where they can come back and forth between the fae and the human realm, and they live in our contemporary times. I like those themes of there might be witches, there might be vampires, there might be fairies that walk alongside us every day, and we don't know it.   Michael Hingson ** 35:24 And do they know Bill Bo Baggins, since we're talking about Middle Earth, just   Tricia Copeland ** 35:29 they do, well, they might have read the book. I don't know that they met him personally.   Michael Hingson ** 35:35 Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another, another story, but it's but it's cool. What other kinds of characters are you thinking of for maybe future books, outside of witches, vampires and fairies,   Tricia Copeland ** 35:49 right? So I won't give too much away, but no, in order to perform some of the spells that they need to perform in, I guess in two of my books in this series, to be a Fae legend, which is the third book of the series, and to be a Fae which is the finale, The last book of the series. My witches and fairies need to perform these spells. So they need a great amount of power or energy, and they have to assemble different kinds of beings. And in the finale, they have to assemble 12 different kinds of beings. If you try to make a list of different kinds of being, you actually in ones that the witches and the fairies could find in the human realm, like so I had an elf and the werewolves and nicks and selkies like so the Nicks are shape shifters that shift into fish, and then the selkies are shape shifters that shift into now I'm blanking not walruses seals, sorry. So yeah, I had to go find all these different characters. So all of those characters are in this final book, and I I'm thinking of maybe some of those characters that can form a new series.   Michael Hingson ** 37:11 So are all trolls, mean, nasty creatures, or, do you know yet,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:16 in my series, they are depicted as that? Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:21 how about gnomes? I don't have any gnomes. Well, there's another one for you to look at down the line. Might be. It might be interesting to see where that goes. Of course. Yep, so you but you have a variety of characters, and I think it's it's great when you have a rich culture of a lot of different characters. And of course, there are all sorts of potentials for conflict or for different creatures to work learn to work together too,   Tricia Copeland ** 37:56 right? The Fay historically have not worked with other beings or creatures. They very much kept to themselves and had primary purpose. They think their primary purpose is to protect the humans from all the evil spirits. So that has been their focus historically, and they've shunned other groups of beings based on whether they thought they were descended from the Creator, who's sort of like their god or the creator or the evil one, right? So the Fae believed that the vampires and werewolves, for instance, were created by the evil ones, so they shouldn't associate with those types of beings, and there's a lot of learning in there. I guess you could say it, are we going to partner with these beings, and how? What does that look like? And is that really okay? And can we choose a different path than what our predecessors have chosen?   Michael Hingson ** 38:59 And I guess it's sort of pretty clearly, is that they somewhat do that.   Tricia Copeland ** 39:06 Yes, they do. And Titania, our main character, is very much the Herald for that type of behavior and that type of community and that type of acceptance   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 well. So your next year, your book will be out in July, and then where do you go from there?   Tricia Copeland ** 39:31 Yes, so like I said, I'm tossing around ideas for fantasy characters. I also write in the romance genre, so generally, I'll write a fantasy, and then I'll write a romance. I'll switch back and forth between writing those. The past year and a half, I guess I've been focusing on finishing this fantasy series, so I have two romances now queued up that I'm excited about writing, and we'll get to those first. I   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 think, hmm. What romances Have you written already?   Tricia Copeland ** 40:03 So after the being me series, I started the perfect romance series, which the first book was a little bit different from a typical romance. It has five parts, and it's the same main character, but based on decisions at different times in her life, her life goes off in a different way. So you see her go to France and fall in love with the French man, or you see her take a job in New York City and fall in love with a investment banker. And so you see her in different stages of her life, having made different decisions, but still finding happily ever after. So that kind of kicked off that. And somebody, somebody called it speculative romance at one time, and it's more like make your own story or choose your own ending type of book. But from there, I initially thought I would write like a full book showing each of the happily ever afters with that same character, but I wrote one book showing one happily ever after scenario, but then decided that I would look at all of her friends lives so they all met in college, and they were in this one sorority together. And so I write different books showing the different friends love stories. So I've written perfect. Was the first one perfect, always with Chloe. And then Brie book is a close as close to perfect. And this is still set in Lexington, Kentucky. And then the last one is perfect office pack, which is a enemies to lovers, office romance.   Michael Hingson ** 41:51 Now, do you put a lot of sex in your books? I   Tricia Copeland ** 41:54 don't know. My books are what's called closed door or fade to black, so you'll see some kissing, but not much more than that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:03 and that's fine. And the reason I asked that question was to get to the whole issue of so many people when they're writing, just have to make everything so graphic. There's got to be all this sex and all this other stuff that they put in them. And my view has always been, is that really necessary? And I gather you, you're essentially saying the same thing. And again, it's like detective stories. I love to read a lot of detective stories, but I like the detective stories most that are puzzles. That is, I want to figure out who done it. I don't need all the graphics of how somebody got murdered, or what happened. It happens. You don't need to put all that graphic stuff in to get to dealing with the puzzle. And it's the same thing with sex. You really need all that. Like a lot of comedians, it's all the shock stuff. They got to have all these horrible words, swear words, and everything else but the best comedians, I think most people, if they really study it, will agree, are the ones that tell stories without all that dirty and sex stuff in it.   Tricia Copeland ** 43:12 And that's what I like to read and what I like to watch, too. But there are definitely people that enjoy different types of books. Yeah, there are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:21 yeah, I hear you, but I, I would prefer to be able to use my imagination in various things. So one of my favorite detective stories or Characters of All Times is Nero Wolfe, written by Rex Stout, because he he writes in a way where you don't see all the graphic and don't need to see any of the graphic to get the entire picture. He describes enough so you know what's going on, but he doesn't deal with it in a way that would How do I put it? Offend anyone?   Tricia Copeland ** 43:59 Right? And I would probably argue that mystery books are would be the hardest to write, I think, because you have to give enough clues throughout so that the reader doesn't think, Oh, I would have never thought that was the villain, but you don't want to put too much in. So it's so obvious who the villain is, right? So I think it's the ways those authors weave those stories are very intricate and thought out and multi layered and impressive to me   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 well. And the reality is that sometimes, and again, I'll use Rex Stout as an example, when you find out who did it, or who the bad person was, and Wolf explains it clearly, all the clues were there, but it would be really hard for you to put it together. Now, there have been a few times where there were things that he didn't tell you, that if you if he had said those. Because during the book, you might have figured it out, but mostly the clues are somewhat there, but it is so subtle that I doubt very many people would figure it out, which   Tricia Copeland ** 45:14 is, yeah, definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:17 It makes it so much fun. When that happens, it is. So you're, you're still deciding what you want to do for your next series of books, or what, what the next realm will be, if you will,   Tricia Copeland ** 45:31 in the fantasy genre, yes, I'm still deciding which way to go with my next characters.   Michael Hingson ** 45:38 Yes, right, but you're going to probably do some romances before you go into those. I   Tricia Copeland ** 45:43 am, yes, I was just writing a newsletter to my subscribers. In the last book, I had subscribers pick names for my characters. And so in this book, I thought, You know what? I don't like this character has has only been introduced and very briefly in one of the books, and so she doesn't have a lot of backstory. And I thought, You know what, I can just ask my readers, where do you think she should live? What are her hobbies? What does she like to do? What's her favorite book genre? I thought that would be a lot of fun for my readers to direct some of that.   Michael Hingson ** 46:18 And what kind of answers did you get? Did you get a lot of feedback?   Tricia Copeland ** 46:22 Like I said, I Well, with the names one when? So I'm just sent out the poll today, new one, but for the name ones, yeah, I would. I got like 100 answers. And then I thought, you know, next time, I won't do the names, because sometimes names are so personal and can vote like a lot of emotion that people get very heated about people's names.   Michael Hingson ** 46:47 Now, do mostly women answer? Do you get both sexes answering your questions? It is   Tricia Copeland ** 46:52 mostly women, but definitely, maybe 10% male, I would think. And actually, I feel like I have more interaction, and that's mostly on the fantasy side, but I feel like I actually have sometimes more interaction. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this get more passionate about fantasy?   Michael Hingson ** 47:13 Yeah, probably so. But you know, there's, there's something to be said for reading a good romance book. I like cozy mysteries as well, and a lot of those are really combinations of mysteries and romance, and the mystery part is oftentimes more straightforward, but it's just the whole book and the putting the entire book together that makes it so much fun.   Tricia Copeland ** 47:41 Yeah, those can be a quick, you know, kind of feel good read. I yeah for that genre, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 there's nothing wrong with that. It's good to have feel good books occasionally,   Tricia Copeland ** 47:54 too. I am all for feel good everything, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when I travel, I like to read on airplanes, and I like not to work and do reading that's really related to work, because going and coming from events is really the time that I get to have the most down time once I get somewhere I am on until I am on the airplane coming home. And so it is the way to relax. So I enjoy reading things that will allow me to relax when I'm going and coming from trips or from events, which is so important, I think, to be able to do and I think people should do more of that. It's always worth slowing down some and really letting your mind just wander.   Tricia Copeland ** 48:38 Yeah, plane trips are my favorite, because that's I do the same thing. I read on the plane, and I listen to audio books mostly if I'm home, when I'm exercising or when I'm doing chores. But to be able to sit down and read doesn't happen that often.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 What do you like to read most from audio books? What? What genre?   Tricia Copeland ** 48:59 Um, exactly what I write, fantasy and romance.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 What's your favorite fantasy books   Tricia Copeland ** 49:06 I just finished, and I'm so behind because I don't read fantasy when I'm writing fantasy. So I just finished Holly Black's, the folk of the air series, the cruel prince, I think the cool prince, the wicked king and the queen of nothing. I think they're the three books in that series. So that was really good series. And I'm writing Emily's wild encyclopedia fairies right now. So I just started that get   Michael Hingson ** 49:33 a little bit more information on those fairies for a future book. Right? That's that's kind of important to do. So do you produce with I've asked a number of people this, and I'll ask you, do you arrange for audio books to be produced from your series?   Tricia Copeland ** 49:53 I do both my fantasy series, The Kingdom journals, as well as the realm Chronicles. I have audio books. Four. I'm a little bit behind in the realm Chronicles. My Narrator had some health problems, so I'm switching narrators. But my new narrator, Tina walls, wolsen craft, yes, I think that's how you pronounce her last name, she will be working on the fourth book in the realm Chronicles series in September. So I'm hoping that will come out in October, and that will be my, my eighth audio book.   Michael Hingson ** 50:23 And where can people get the audio books?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:26 So the kingdom Journal series is on all platforms, and then the realm chronicle series, the newest series, is on Audible. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:37 so and again under your name for the author?   Tricia Copeland ** 50:42 Yep. Tricia Copeland, author, the Kingdom Journal series. The first two books are female character, so and now I'm blank. I can't believe I'm blanking on her name. It'll come to me in a minute. Yeah. So I had a female narrator for the first two books, and then the second two books are male Lee main characters. So Dan Delgado did the narration on those and then Jillian Yetter, who was the most amazing narrator for Titania. She even had pink hair, just just like Titania does, a hold of the the cover of the book has Titania is pink hair. So that was really fun to work with her, and we won an award for the second book in that series, to be a fake guardian   Michael Hingson ** 51:26 in audio book. Oh, cool. What was the award? It   Tricia Copeland ** 51:29 was independent book publisher Association, young adult fantasy, Silver Award.   Michael Hingson ** 51:35 Oh, cool. That's exciting. It's always good to have awards. Have you run other awards along the way?   Tricia Copeland ** 51:40 I have several Colorado independent book Publishers Association for the first book, kingdom of embers, in the kingdom Journal series, as well as several the global Book Awards for to remember it to be, to be a fake queen, which is the first book in the kingdom journals and as Ray at my Aztec mythology.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 So how many books have you written all together?   Speaker 1 ** 52:08 Next month's book will be 23 Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 52:13 That is really exciting. Well, I know we're putting in the show notes, the picture of the book cover for the next book. And as I mentioned earlier, if you want to send us other books that you think people ought to read, we'll put those pictures in the the notes as well. I'm glad to have all the pictures you want to share.   Tricia Copeland ** 52:31 I will definitely share them. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:34 so is there anything else you'd like all of our listeners and viewers to know or to think about going forward,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:42 right? Well, if you go to my website, which is triciacopeland.com,   Michael Hingson ** 52:47 and Tricia is T, R, i, c, I A, Copeland, C, O, P, E, L,   52:53 a n, d, l, a n, d.com.com,   Tricia Copeland ** 52:56 yes, if you go there, and if you just want to get a trial of my books. If you subscribe to my newsletter, then you can read a free short story fantasy as well as a free short story romance.   Michael Hingson ** 53:07 Oh, okay. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to do that,   Tricia Copeland ** 53:13 they can reach out on direct message, on social media, or my email is Tricia T, R, i, c, I a@triciacopeland.com   53:21 too. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 then people can, can reach out and and they'll, I'm sure, have all sorts of ideas for you.   Tricia Copeland ** 53:31 I love ideas, and I love talking to readers about my books.   Michael Hingson ** 53:36 Yeah, I I've written three, and I love getting comments and feedback from people, because I get new ideas and new thoughts. And mine are really all about helping to inspire people and so on. So it's it's always good when people have their their observations, whatever they are.   54:01 I agree.   Michael Hingson ** 54:03 Well, anyway, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I really value your time being here, and I hope people will reach out and and also, more important, get your books and read your books and review them. One of the most important things that all of us who are authors will tell anyone is, please review the books. Please go to places like Amazon and Reddit and so on and review the books, because those reviews are are viewed and paid attention to by so many people. So giving an author, a great review is always a wonderful thing to do.   Tricia Copeland ** 54:44 We do appreciate those and thank you so much, Michael for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 54:48 Well, it was my pleasure, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching today. We really appreciate it. If you've got any thoughts, I'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H i. M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, you can see all of our podcasts there, but they're also available wherever you're listening to podcasts and and you can find the most anywhere podcasts are available. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest that you think would make a wonderful guest, and you'd like to have them tell their stories and Tricia you as well, I would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for more people to have on the podcast, and so please don't hesitate to reach out and don't hesitate to provide introductions, but again, give us a five star review here on unstoppable mindset. We value your reviews greatly, and we really appreciate you doing it. So I want to thank you, Tricia again, for being here. This has been fun, and I think it's really important that people do get a great sense of what you're doing, and I think we've done that, and we're really anxious to see where you go from here.   Tricia Copeland ** 56:08 Thank you so much, Michael, I so appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. 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In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset we get to experience a story of a man who demonstrates what real unstopability is really all about. I hope you will be inspired and that you will learn some good life lessons from what you will hear. Our guest, Kijuan Amey grew up around Durham North Carolina. After completing high school, rather than going to college, circumstances brought him to an Airforce recruiter. He scored quite high on his tests which resulted in his recruiter showing him a list of jobs including working as an in-flight refueling expert. The job was demanding, and it requires significant intelligence. After pondering and speaking with the recruiter Kijuan signed up for the job and spent the next 6 and a half years refueling aircraft in flight.   In May of 2017 Kijuan was struck by a motorcycle and suffered a significant number of major injuries. Of course, his career as a refueling expert ended. He actually spent the next 3 and a half years healing and eventually deciding to move on with his life.   Kijuan describes himself as someone who always likes getting answers and moving forward. This he did as you will discover. You will hear the story of Kijuan Amey in detail. Today he teaches and he is a coach. He also wrote and published a book. What I haven't told you to this point is that one of the things that happened to Kijuan as a result of his injuries is that he lost his eyesight. As he will tell you, however, “I may have lost my sight, but I have not lost my vision”. Kijuan today is a keynote speaker talking to many audiences and helping people to discover how they can move forward with their lives no matter what befalls them.     About the Guest:   Kijuan Amey, the visionary behind Amey Motivation, hails from Durham, NC, where his journey of resilience and success began. After graduating from Southern High School, he dedicated a decade of his life to the US Air Force, achieving the rank of Staff Sergeant as an In-flight Refueling Specialist. Medically retired, he transitioned into academia, earning a degree and founding Amey Motivation LLC. Formerly served as the vice president for the Carolina regional group of the Blinded Veterans Association, Kijuan is also a mentor and ambassador for the Air Force Wounded Warriors program. Beyond his remarkable military career, Kijuan is a man of many talents, boasting over 25 years of drumming expertise, onstage acting, and now, an upcoming bestseller, “Don't Focus on Why Me.” However, life took an unexpected turn on May 5th, 2017, when a motorcycle accident claimed his eyesight. Yet, as Kijuan profoundly states, “I may have lost my sight, but I did not lose my vision.” Now armed with an inspiring story of overcoming adversity, Kijuan has become a motivational force, empowering others to reach their highest potential. Whether addressing a crowd of 1,500 or engaging in one-on-one sessions, Kijuan is well-equipped for any speaking engagement. He's not just a speaker; he's a catalyst for transformation, ready for the task ahead! Contact him at (919) 641-8150 | kijuan@ameymotivation.com | AmeyMotivation.com Ways to connect with Kijuan:   Website: ameymotivation.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kijuan-amey-783889121?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/167F8mGMfR/?mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kijuanamey?igsh=NmZtNHRqbW1meWNy&utm_source=qr      About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am Michael hingson, and you are listening and or watching our podcast. Unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And for those who may not really understand all of that, we start with inclusion, because if you talk to diversity people, they typically leave out any discussion of disabilities, and today, especially, that gets to be important, because our guest Kijuan, Amey, is blind, and I, of course, as many of you probably know also, am blind, and so we're going to talk about blind, and who knows what else we'll we'll get into all sorts of adventures. There's another thing that Kijuan and I have in common, and he doesn't even really probably know about it, and that is that in my book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero, there's a section called guide dog wisdom. And in the section of guide dog wisdom, number two, the main point of that one is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. And that was published in Thunder dog anyway, we'll talk about whatever comes along. But Kijuan, I want to welcome you to doing a stoppable mindset, and thanks for being here. We're glad to have you,   Kijuan Amey ** 02:42 Michael, I truly appreciate you allowing me to come on your platform and share my story.   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, no allowance necessary. It is all all about people conversing and telling their stories and why they do what they do, and showing that they're unstoppable, so that we can show everybody else that they're unstoppable as well, or really ought to consider themselves more unstoppable than they think. But anyway, we're glad you're here, and looking forward to having a great conversation with you. Why don't we start by you going back and telling us kind of about the the early years of Kijuan, the early years of Yeah. Let's start with the beginning. You know, you know, like they, they always say you gotta start at the beginning somewhere. So might as well start at the beginning.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:29 Yeah. So back in the 90s, born in Durham, North Carolina, where I was, of course, raised there as well. I don't live too far from there. Now, honestly, I'm only maybe 2530 minutes from there, so I still consider myself right here in it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:48 And of course, having grown up in Durham, you must be a major basketball fan of some sort.   Kijuan Amey ** 03:55 What? Why would you say that there's no basketball around here? What   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 are you talking about? Yes, 25 miles away from you. Yeah, I am definitely a, a   Kijuan Amey ** 04:04 true Understander of the rivalry UNC versus Duke. Okay, oh gosh, and and then I might be from Durham, but I'm actually a UNC fan.   Michael Hingson ** 04:16 I was in Carolina once and Northern Carolina, North Carolina in Durham, several years ago to do a speech. And we came in on a Thursday night, and I got to the hotel was pretty tired, but I thought I would unpack and watch TV. And at the time, there was a show on CBS called without a trace. I kind of like the show, so I turned it on, and at eight o'clock, when without a trace was supposed to come on, there was suddenly an announcement that says that without a trace will not be seen tonight, because we're going to be presenting live the basketball game between North Carolina State and University of. North Carolina to see which one is going to go to the chip college championships. And so if you want to watch without a trace, you can watch it Sunday morning at two in the morning. I wasn't going to do that, but anyway. But anyway. So yeah, the basketball. It runneth hot there, obviously,   Kijuan Amey ** 05:22 yeah, so it's pretty interesting. There is a meme for those who understands what that is, but it's a depiction. There's North Carolina State, Duke and UNC, all standing on top of a mountain, all of the mascots, and North Carolina State says, I'm going to do this one for my team, and they jump off the mountain. And then UNC says, and I'm going to do this one for my team, and then they kick Duke off the mountain.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Listen, I'm telling you, man, it is serious around I know it is really serious. It's so serious. So, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 06:05 no, I grew up in a UNC household, um, grandmother, mother, I mean, dad, hey, listen, if you they even worked at Duke and still were UNC fans. It's just the way it was, you know, and it's hard to when you grew up in it was hard to go against, you know, Unc, when they have such a amazing teams with Michael Jordan, Antoine Jameson, all these guys that came through there, you just like, gosh, these guys were really great. And so it's just one of those things. But, you know, kind of growing up with that lifestyle, you had the two games during the season, and you you hope they met in the in the in the ACC tournament, right? Because you wanted to see if there could be a clean sweep, well. And so this past year, Duke got to sleep. They rightfully, rightfully so, because their star player is going to be drafted number one this year. So they rightfully got it   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 another year. I was in brether County, Kentucky to do a speech, and it was the day of the NCAA championship. So one of the two teams was the what Wildcats of Kentucky, and I forget who the other one was, but I was to do a speech that started at 6pm and I was told it was at a high school. And I was told this speech has to end absolutely latest, at 6:30pm because by 631 the gym will be completely closed and and everyone will be gone because everyone wants to go home and see the Wildcats. Well, I did the speech. I ended it at 630 and everyone was gone. By 631 they were flooding out. Boy, I couldn't believe how fast they all got out. I'm   Kijuan Amey ** 08:09 telling you. Man, those, what we call them is blue, blue bloods, yeah, and these are the big, the biggest, you know, college teams that that impact that sport. So for basketball, of course, you got your UNC, your Duke, your Kentucky, your Kansas, those types of teams, you know. And football we already know is kind of shifting a little bit, but hey, it's just the way it is with all this nio money now. So yeah, and that's kind of what's going on nowadays. You got to have some money. And the difference between UNC and Duke, one's a private school and one's public. There you go. Well, so tell us. So tell us more about you. Yes. So me, besides me being a Tar Heel fan, I personally, you know, went after high school, graduated from Southern High School here in Durham, and then went on to the United States Air Force. I actually was going to consider going to North Carolina State, but it was not to become a fan. It was because they had one of the better engineering programs in the state, and better than UNC, huh? UNC doesn't really offer engineering. They offer computer science. And I didn't want that. And the computer science is kind of boring to me, yeah? And I mean, I'm just being honest, yeah, that's okay. And so I wanted to do either software or computer engineering, and the two best schools in the state were North Carolina State University and North Carolina agriculture and Technical State University, which we shortened for North Carolina A and T. So those two schools are the best here in North Carolina, which actually get a lot of great funding for engineering. Yeah, by the way. So yeah, that was what I was planning on doing, but there were admission hiccups. And so I said, you guys can have your admission hiccups. I already can't afford you. Anyway, I'm gonna take a different route. And so I have a really heavy or, shall I say my family has a really heavy background in the military, and mostly navy. Jeez, maybe seven, I think maybe six or seven Navy members, and then one army, one Marine, one went from the Navy to the Coast Guard. And then you have me, who kicked off the Air Force journey, and then my youngest brother is now carrying that torch, so he's out there in Italy. Man, I'm a little jealous about it. It's okay. I never got to see Italy. It's all right. It's all right. But anyway, I went into the Air Force and became an in flight refueling specialist. So what does that mean? Exactly, yeah, yeah. That's what I was getting into. I can't just say it without not telling so what that means is, I do refill aircraft, but I do it in the sky. It's basically like airplanes pulling up to a flying gas station,   Michael Hingson ** 11:28 which can be very tricky, tricky.   Kijuan Amey ** 11:30 That's a That's an understatement of the year. It's dangerous the first so when I was going through school, the first warning that they had in the book says flying two planes in close proximity is inherently dangerous. You think there's no way that's possible. No couldn't be Who are they telling this to? Like, man, it's almost like a five year or five year old needed to read that or something. So I'm just like, okay, the way to scare me. Appreciate it. And anywho I did that job for on paper, 10 years, three months and 17 days. That's how long the military counted. I Yeah, say, six and a half   Michael Hingson ** 12:22 years now. Why did you decide to do that, to go into the military? No to to become an in flight? Oh,   Kijuan Amey ** 12:31 that's because, well, first, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good question, because I had no clue that even existed. Didn't even know until my recruiter showed me, because I scored so high on the ASVAB, he said, I gotta show you something. And I was like, Okay, what is it? And so, you know, when you're going into the military, you're kind of skeptical about them trying to sell you a dream. And you know, so I'm like, and again, I have plenty of military families, so they're all telling me about this. They're like, don't let them sell you no dream. Make sure you pick a job before you go to basic training, because you don't want to go in open general and all this stuff. I said, okay, cool. Well, when he shows me that video, I start giggling. I said, Okay, all right. And he's like, what? I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool. But what's the actual job you're going to show me? And he's like, this is the job as it that looks like a video game, man. He's like, he was like, I know it's crazy, but you qualify for it   Michael Hingson ** 13:40 now. What, what, what characteristic did you have, or what was the scoring on the test that made you qualify for that?   Kijuan Amey ** 13:49 I don't know what the exact cutoff is, but I score an 87 on my ASVAB out of 100 so that's that's high. Um, you needed a 50 to get into the Air Force. And I scored the 87 and he was so happy and elated. He called me as soon as he got my score. Not like, waited a day or two, no, he called me as soon as he saw the opening of the email. And he was like, When can you come in? That's all he said to me. He didn't say nothing else on the phone. And I was like, um, I could be there tomorrow. He was like, I'll be here. I said, okay, but anyway, that's literally how excited he was. He didn't even tell me why until I got there, so I had no clue, until the day I arrived in his office, and he was, he pulled out this stack of papers that he had stapled together, which was a was jobs, listing of jobs. And it was like eight pages, front and back, listings. And I'm like, Okay, what is this? And then I get close to it, I read. And I'm like, Oh, these are jobs. He's like, Yeah. He's like, go ahead. You flip through him, if you like. And I'm flipping through he's already started highlighting some and I knew there was something I wasn't gonna do. I mean, there was one of them that wasn't highlighted that I thought I wanted to do, which I'm glad I didn't, because I told it basically been me working on, like, Humvees and trucks and stuff. And he was like, You are way too smart for that. I said, okay, but that's what I know. That's what I just came out of high school doing, you know, because I went to a high school that had vocational trades and stuff. So I loved cars, I still do, and worked on mine until, literally, I couldn't see anymore, and so, you know, slowly becoming a lost trait. But hey, somebody's got to do it anyway. Yeah, that's how I got into that job. He showed it to me on a computer screen, and I was like, What the heck he's like, I've never, I said I'd never seen this before. He's like, you're not gonna see it as a civilian, because only the military does.   Michael Hingson ** 16:09 So why is it the military essentially said you did it six and a half years and you said you did it as 10.   Kijuan Amey ** 16:14 No, opposite. I said I did it six and a half. Oh, okay, rather, okay, 10, right? Because that was the day they retired me, the six and a half is the day I had my injury, and I never showed back up to work. Basically, what was your injury? My injury was a motorcycle accident where a car pulled out in front of okay, yeah, yeah. Sustained my eyes, my eyesight loss, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, spinal cord injury, broken, both legs, everything. What do you want to know? The only thing that didn't get, I guess you say, didn't have a surgery on was my arms   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 got it, but they, but they kept you in essentially, well, you were, you were in the military, so you stayed in while you were healing, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 17:06 Yeah, so it, what happened was the reason it took so long, nobody really knew what to do with me and I, and I'll get you to why, or an understanding of why. So I did four years active, but now, at the time of my accident, I'm a reservist. I'm not active duty anymore. So fortunately for me, I was on an active duty, or in an active status, is what we call it, in the reserves, because I was in a travel status that day of my accident because I had to work that weekend, and on the day, which was May 5, 2017 that was my travel day. Okay, thankfully, because had it been may 4, 2017 I wouldn't have any of this, literally just one day. Wow. And so they were trying to figure out how to process me. They didn't know what to keep me, to let me go, to drop me off a cliff, like they didn't know what to do. And so as we were trying to file every piece of paper known to the what do you call it? DOD, Department of Defense. We had no clue what to do. Medical didn't know what to do. My leadership didn't know what to do. I definitely didn't know what to do. I mean, I never dealt with an injury, you know, or seen anybody deal with an injury, especially as substantial as mine. Yeah, of course, you were in the hospital. Well, even after getting out of hospital, you know, we were still dealing with this the whole entire time until I got retired, you know, up until the point where they eventually put me, it's kind of like they were trying to out process me with an honorable discharge, but they saw that he has an injury, so we need to get him some, you know, stuff done, and then he put me on a casualty report, and which means, you know, I was very badly injured. That's basically all that means. And that put me on a another piece of or or track, shall I say, which got me connected to a headquarters in Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio, which is the Air Force Wounded Warriors Program. Now, when they saw my name pop up on the casualty report, they called me, and I'll never forget Connie Sanchez's voice, because I was like, What the heck is this? But she said, Hi, I'm Connie Sanchez calling from the Air Force winter Warriors Program, and I was trying to reach a key one Amy. And I'm like, You're who from where, because I had never heard of a program. Mm, hmm. So are you trying to in today's society, the scams that go on, you know? Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Who you? Who are you from? Where I'm I've been been in the Air Force for a while now. I've never heard of an Air Force. When the Warriors program, what are we talking about here, you know? And so she's doing her best to explain it to me and keep me from from being skeptical, as she says, I saw you pop up on a casualty report list, and we help airmen who have been wounded, ill or injured, you know, and and I said, Okay, well, what do you what are we we talking about? Like, what are mean you supposed to be talking about? She's like, Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I say, you gonna help me who? These are the words I've been looking for. You know, you gonna help me do what? Oh, I'm gonna help you get medically retired. I said, Where have you been for the last three years? And so anyway, that's how that whole thing got started. The ball started getting rolled to get   Michael Hingson ** 21:14 rolling so you were injured in 2017 Yeah. What was your attitude like after the injury? How? How did you move forward, or what? What were you thinking? Was it? Were you? Were you just totally devastated? Did you think you're going to just off yourself, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 21:38 Well, let me preface by saying this, I told you I had a traumatic brain injury. The damage to my brain is most severe in the frontal lobe. The frontal lobe houses a lot of emotions, and so yes, there was devastation, yes, there was sadness. Yes, there was, well, what am I going to do now? Yes, there was anxiety, there was anything you can think of anger because of the guy who hit me or pulled out in front of me. Shall I say? You know, there was so much that was going on at one time, because, you know, I'm stuck in the hospital for, oh, by the way, I was at UNC hospital. Okay, so that's pretty cool. Uh, that I'm a Tar Heel Fanning and I got, you know, Life Flight of the UNC hospital. But back to what I was saying, there's so much that was going on that one time, because I'm stuck at a hospital for two months now, granted, the first month I know nothing about. I was in a medically induced coma for the first month, so from May 5 until June the sixth. Don't ask me any question. You know what? I mean, I literally know nothing, because that's when I came to I came out of my medically induced coma, and so I'm just trying to figure out where I am. I cannot see already, like my vision was already gone. This is not a gradual loss, as some might think or might be wondering. I could not talk at the time because my jaw had been broken, so they wired it shut to keep me from damaging it any further then I didn't realize it yet, but I also could not smell, and the reason I didn't realize it is because I could breathe just fine. The only time I noticed I couldn't smell is when some is when somebody said, Man, you smell that? It smelled good? No, no, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. What What smells good, you know? Or if I you know, yeah, something smell bad. I don't smell it. What are you talking about? And so anywho, um, all of these different things are going through my mind, and even after I was told what happened to me, because I, of course, don't remember. I have no recollection of the accident. So after they told me what happened now, I am sitting there with these thoughts in my head for basically, I don't know, 12 hours because I stopped talking or communicating with anyone after that, and I just wanted to be alone. Because, as the saying goes, I just got hit with a ton of bricks. Yeah, you know, so I'm literally going through all the emotions, the sadness, the net, the potential, thought of never being able to see again, never being able to fly again, refill again, see my, my girlfriend, see my, my nieces, nephews, a family, uncle, anything possible. My, I don't even have kids. I never get to see them, you know. So it's. It was one of those things. And I, I mean, I took a lot of pride in the things that I saw, because it was things that a lot of people would never see. And this is also why, you know, on some of my social media, when I did do air refuelings and things of that nature, or or went to really nice locations, or even some that weren't so nice. I would take pictures and post it, because some people will never get to see this. Yeah, so I want you to live vicariously if you want to say it through me, they're like, man, that's cool. That video, that was awesome. You you did the other day. Hey, I appreciate it, man. Hey, it's my job, you know? It's just what it is. It's all part of the   Michael Hingson ** 25:49 game, you know. And all that was taken away   Kijuan Amey ** 25:53 Exactly. And so when I tell you I used to have and I wouldn't even be sleep, I would be daydreaming, and could see so vividly, like airplanes that I used to refuel, like the F 22 Raptor, the C 17, you know, it's it's things like that. The views I used to have looking down at the ocean from 20,000 feet in the air, looking down at the coastline, flying over the North Carolina and Virginia border, where you can see literally go from land to water to land, because there is a tunnel that goes underneath the water for ships to pass over, I could literally see that stuff from the air and to now go from not seeing that ever again, the thoughts that you sit with were just like beating me up alive. And so I finally had to come out of crazy mode, because that's what it makes you do. It makes you go crazy when you do think about all these thoughts. I had to come out of that mode, because if I didn't, I probably would have really went crazy. And I finally started asking all the questions to get answers, instead of trying to formulate my own questions that I had no answers to. And so that is what you know, got me the information and how the accident happened, where I was, where I was coming from. I do remember the day that I had before that, like not not may 4, but like what I was doing before I had the accident. I do remember all of that, but the thing is, when it came up to the accident, I don't know nothing about it, it's like it completely erased that entire moment. And that's a protective mode that your neurological system does for your brain. So it's so, it's so. It's so empowering that your your mind, can do something like that. But it's also a benefit, because I would never, I do not want to relive that dream or that nightmare, shall I say, over and over. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 But you made the choice to move on, to get out of the crazy mode. What? What caused you to do that? Just you decided enough was enough, and it's time to move on, or what?   Kijuan Amey ** 28:39 No, I'm a man of answers. I need answers so. So when I think the military kind of did that to me too, but I've always been that guy who asked questions to you, even when I was younger, I was at, man, will you just sit down and we'll get to it, you know? So the military made it worse, because I became an instructor, and as an instructor, you tend to ask questions, so you can see what the person is thinking, how they're thinking, you know, making sure they're processing the information correctly. And so I am now doing that to everybody. I've put my instructor hat back on, and I'm going to asking questions that I need to know the answers   Michael Hingson ** 29:21 to so, how long after the accident, did you start doing this?   Kijuan Amey ** 29:25 Oh, no, this was a Maybe the day after I woke up from my medically induced coma. Okay, so, so the day I was informed of the accident, which was June the sixth, when I woke up out of my medically induced coma because I hate the panic button, basically not being a receipt or talk, you know what I mean? So, so I needed to figure something out, and that's when I asked the question, Well, what happened to me? Or what is the question I asked was, What? What is this motorcycle accident dream you guys are talking about? Because somebody, it was just people in my room talking, right? And they were like, Oh no, that's not a dream. That's what happened to you. And that was when I went into that shutdown period. And how long were you in that period? That was, that was the like, 12 to 16 hours or so that I didn't talk okay? And so the next day, June the seventh, is when I was like, hey, hey, I need to find something now. And that's what happened to me. What really happened?   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 So when that occurred? So now, on the seventh of June, did you just basically decide fairly quickly you got to move beyond from this, or did? Was it devastating for a while?   Kijuan Amey ** 30:44 Yeah, no, that's when the devastation and stuff really kicked in, because it made me say, What the heck, man, like, you know, somebody did this to me, you know, and I can't get back, none of that stuff. Yeah, that was taken away from me. I have all these different parts inside of me. I got metal plates in my head, screw rods and screws in my back, rods in both legs, a screw in my foot, like I even have two different sized feet now.   Michael Hingson ** 31:16 So how long was it before you started to decide you gotta go off and do something else with your life, and you're not gonna just let all of this rule you   Kijuan Amey ** 31:28 let's see when, when did that kind of transfer that it took me a little while, because I had to get acclimated to the new right life, you know, at first. So I think that would be around maybe I know I went on my first plane ride as a visually impaired person in 2018 So December of 2018 I went to my first blind rehab center. Where was that? In Tucson, Arizona. Okay, okay. The one for the V The VA has a couple of them. I can't remember how many it is, but that was the one I went to, because that was the first one to accept. I didn't want to go to the one that was closest to me. I've been to Georgia. It's okay. I wanted to go somewhere I haven't been, you know what I mean? And not no no shot at Georgia. I just wanted to go somewhere different, you know, yeah, and so that's what I did. And at first I wanted to go to Mississippi, but they took way too long to respond. And so anywho, I'm trying to get this done today, not next year, you know. And so I went there from December of 2018 until February of 2019 okay, I'm a pretty fast learner, and everything, when you go to those to the VA blind rehab centers, is at your own pace. You're fully embedded like you know, you're there the whole time. You got a room, you got everything, so they fully submerge you into this program, and you leave when you're ready. And so it only took me, and it wasn't even a full two months, is but, but I say two months because December to February, but anyway, I learned what I needed to learn, and I got out of there. I even learned stuff that I didn't know I wanted to learn, like copper tooling, wood working, you know, what's the other one? What's the leather? What's when you do leather? Yeah, but yeah, I I've even done stuff with leather, and that's so cool. It's pretty cool to do that stuff, but, yeah, I did all of that stuff, man. It's amazing. And, you know, come back home to show everybody what I learned, and they're like, Wow, you're like, a whole nother person. I said, Well, you know, I did pick up few things. And so once I got that under my belt, you know, the ability to know how to navigate, I still was not, like, really stable, because I hadn't. I hadn't, I didn't start lifting weights, or, you know, doing any like physical training, training, like legitimate training, until right before the pandemic, I was going to the YMCA and swimming, because, as we know, swimming is a full body workout, and so I was hitting the lap pool with a recreational therapist. And so what, man, that was the worst when that pandemic hit in March of 2020, yeah, because, trust me, I'll never forget it. That was when everything was looking up for me. I was like, Oh, this is so amazing. I'm I'm getting stronger, you know? I'm able to move a little bit better, get more confident in my life. And then, bam, shut everything down. I said, What? We can't go out. Wait. Everything's closed. Oh, okay, it'll only be two weeks. Oh, okay, that's okay. I could wait for two weeks. That's not that bad, yeah, but it'll be another month. Well, you said three months, six months, okay, I don't like this. So yeah, that's when everything started to come down. But then it went back up in 2021   Michael Hingson ** 35:25 Yeah, later in 2021 it started to lift   Kijuan Amey ** 35:28 Well, I mean, for me, for me in 2021 it was when I started actually working out by actually lifting weights again.   Michael Hingson ** 35:38 Now, were you still in the military? Swimming? Were you still in the military at this time I   Kijuan Amey ** 35:43 retired? Or was literally, uh, like, officially, medically retired, June 3, 2021, but again, I had not been to work since May. No, I understand 17, you know. So there's nothing that I'm doing at work. And when I did go down there, it was just kind of the just kind of a visit and hang out with those guys for the day.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 You mean, they wouldn't give you a long cane and let you go ahead and continue to refuel aircraft, because you could just find the the appropriate place with the cane. They   Kijuan Amey ** 36:15 they would have had to switch it to the left hand, because I'm left handed, and they and they make you do that with the right hand, that refueling side, I'm way better with my left hand. Well, but hey, I would have gave it a shot, but, but   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 you don't move, yeah, but you, but you, but you had to make along the way the decision that you were going to move forward, which is what it sounds like you, you were doing. And certainly by June of 2021, when you retired and and so on, you made the decision that you were going to do your best to continue to to advance and do something else with your world. Oh   Kijuan Amey ** 37:00 yeah, yeah, no. I mean, the pandemic actually was a part of good and bad. I mean, yes, it made me upset because they kept pushing the timeline and stuff back. But October of 2020, that's when I started writing my book. So that was in the pandemic. I started writing my book. You know, I learned how to use a computer again in September. And then once I got that down pack, hey, I'm going to the next thing. What's the title of the book? Don't focus on why me. From motorcycle accident to miracle. Got it Okay, so that's the name of it. Yeah, that's the name of it. And, excuse me, like I said, I wrote the book, or started writing the book October 2020, but I wanted to publish it in May of 2021, because of the accident. You know, the accident was in May. I wanted to publish the book in May. Well, it didn't quite happen like that, because timelines get pushed back, because you got to get an editor, you got to get a book formatter, you got to get it covered. Oh, it was taking a long time. And so anywho, it got published in June of 2021, which is my entire retirement month. So I was okay with it. I retired and I published a book, a self published, by the way, a book in June of 2021, which is a big month for me, so I celebrate both good   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 so you did that, yep. And were you? So you got retired in June. And when, what did you decide to do? Or when did you decide to find work?   Kijuan Amey ** 38:47 Well, I don't, I don't really consider what I do work, and I'll tell you why, so as we will from what you're about to find out, I am the proud founder, and I call myself a chief motivational officer, not a CEO of Amey motivation. Now Amey motivation, I do keynote speaking motivationally based most of the time, and then I also am a trusted mentor and a resilience coach. So I don't feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm actually doing a service and giving back, right? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I agree with you when I'm when I when I said a job, I kind of put it in air quotes, but anyway, I got you, but yeah, no, that's how I feel in my, you know, giving back. Because I almost feel like this is a type of ministry, a type of healing, a type of journey that not only benefits me, but benefits others. And it doesn't even feel like I'm working when I do this stuff. It just feels like I'm having a conversation. It feels like I'm building. It feels like I'm helping others, you know. And I. I couldn't even dare say that I feel like I'm working, and it's not even because I'm making good money. It's not because people are paying me, it's not because I travel to do this. It's because I really just don't feel like this is work, sure. Now, when I was in the military, that was work, you know, that felt like work. But this really does not. It's enjoyable, you know, and that's the beauty of it. And I love what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 40:34 But when did you decide to start motivating people?   Kijuan Amey ** 40:38 Well, that started back before the pandemic, too. And my first speech, like official, big speech, shall I say, anyway, was May of 2019, that's when I came out and told everybody, you know, kind of what, what happened to me, my story. Because, you know, everybody was hearing what happened to me on Facebook. I can't stand when I see a post of something bad happening to somebody on social media. Let me tell my story. And so that's what I did. And the title of that, that, uh, that speaking engagement, was, why not me? And everybody, I'm sure, was like, Wait, what the heck? Why is it called that? And I said, you're gonna have to come in to find out. You know, so anywho I told my story, and I do have a snippet of it on my website, Amy motivation.com   Michael Hingson ** 41:33 and Amy is spelled, a, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 41:36 A, M, E, y, right. So, you know, I did tell my story about just being the vulnerable side of what happened to me, how I feel, how I got through it, what I went through, what I was dealing with, you know, and man, when I tell you it was, you could literally hear a pin drop, and we were on carpet. Okay, so it was so quiet in there. Everybody was very attentive. It was a packed house, to say the least. There was not one empty seat, except for behind me, because, no, I didn't want anybody behind me. I wanted everybody to be out front. And so that was the only spot where there was an empty seat. I had people on the right side of me, people on the left side of me, people in front of me, everywhere. And so anywho you know, it was just an amazing speech and an amazing time, because a lot of people there, I knew some people I didn't, but a lot of people there I knew. And after they heard it and came up and talked to me after the speech, they were like, Man, I didn't even know you were going through that. I didn't even know this happened to you. I didn't even know that happened. I said, that's why I had to tell it, because what y'all are hearing on Facebook is partially true, and it's part of the story. It's not the whole story. Let me tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all that started. I also did before that speech. I also did a couple of talks at high school, local high schools in Durham too. So my high school, Southern high school, my alma mater, another local high school called Jordan High School. So yeah, you know, just different things like that,   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 but you still ultimately were the one that you made the choice to do it. You made the choice to move on, which is so cool, because I can think of any number of people who, if they had the same sorts of things happen to them that happened to you, would give up, and you clearly did not,   Kijuan Amey ** 43:50 absolutely not. I think the hardest part for me is I can't sit down. Yeah, so, so me giving up is basically like me sitting down so and I can't do that. I'm like a person like the Energizer Bunny. As soon as you put a battery anywhere near me, I'm gone   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 well, and it's so much more rewarding to do that, I know for me after the World Trade Center attacks and so on, and we started getting calls asking me to come and talk about September 11 and what people should learn. My wife and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun and rewarding, which is really probably the biggest issue, rewarding psychologically, was much more rewarding than selling computer hardware and managing a computer hardware sales team, which is what I did. So, yeah, it became also a a path and something that was worth doing. And I agree it, it is. It isn't work, right? Not. Not in the same way, but that is also in part because we've chosen to structure it and make it work that way, that it's not work.   Kijuan Amey ** 45:09 Yeah, yeah. You know what is. By the way, I love your story. I did hear it on another podcast that I listened to, who that I was interviewed by. And so the the so the day of the World Trade Center and the attacks, the plane that I used to fly on the KC 135 was actually the first plane to come check it out. That was the actually the first plane to come report what had happened, because it was one already airborne, nearby, and then when they look, they loop back around, and they were like, wait, the second one's on fire. Yeah. When did that happen? Like it was basically just like that. There was a   Michael Hingson ** 45:52 Air Canada flight. We met, well, I didn't. My wife did. Met the pilot. We were out in San Francisco, and I was doing a presentation, and she told me about it after the speech, but she said she was coming down on the elevator, and there was a pilot from Air Canada, and they got to talking, and she explained why she was there and what what we were doing. And he said that his plane was the first passenger plane over the world trade center after things happened. And as she said, the FBI must be, have become one of your favorite friends, right, or one of your best friends? And he said, Yeah, they sure did. But   Kijuan Amey ** 46:38 I don't want to get that knock,   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 but it's but it is a choice, and yeah, for for us, the other part about it was that the media got the story, and I feel so blessed, ironically, given how everybody likes to abuse reporters in the Media, but I got so many requests for interviews, and clearly it made sense to do what we could to try to educate and help people move on from September 11, so we accepted the interview requests. And for me personally, what I really learned is something, well, I kind of rediscovered and it got reaffirmed, was that, in reality, talking about something that happens to you like that is the most important thing, because talking about it gives you the opportunity to think about it and move on. And I got asked so many different questions by reporters, some intelligent, some not some in the middle. But the bottom line is that by talking to literally hundreds and hundreds of reporters, that made me talk about it, which was a very good blessing by the time all was said and done,   Kijuan Amey ** 47:54 right, right, instead of internalizing, yeah, no, listen, I also have to say, I'm glad you were in some shape, because what it was 78 floors, yeah, golly, hey, I don't want to hear you say 10, you know. But 78 floors,   Michael Hingson ** 48:15 it was going down. So that's pretty good. As I tell people, I do understand, but as I tell people, the next week, for the next week I was starting, actually the next day, I was stiff as a board. The adrenaline ran out. And, oh, it's horrible. And, yeah, you know, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we were in a two story house we built so there was an elevator. And I swear, for the next week after September 11, I use that elevator a whole lot more than she did.   Kijuan Amey ** 48:43 Ah, that's funny,   Michael Hingson ** 48:46 but, but, you know, it was just kind of the way it was. But it is a choice, yes, and the bottom line is that we we move on you. You certainly had lots of things happen to you. You lost a lot of things. Did you ever get your sense of smell back? Or is it still gone?   Kijuan Amey ** 49:01 No, no. It was damaged during the reconstructive surgery on my face where they had to input the two plates. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that's where that came from. So now it happened, shall I say? So   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 now getting back to something that we talked about at the very beginning, as you point out, you lost your site, but you didn't lose your vision. So tell me more about that, what that means to you, and why you say that. Because, as I said, that's something that that I've thought and talked about a lot. And of course, when thunder dog was written, we put that into thunder dog. And by the way, if you don't know it, Thunder dog and and all three of my books actually are on on Bard, so you can download them, or you can help a poor, starving author and go buy them, but, but, you know,   Kijuan Amey ** 49:50 come on, I think you will off. Mr. Steve Harvey, No, I'm joking. But anywho. So, as I mentioned before. Four, you know, when I was talking about my business, I don't necessarily feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm helping and and what I mean, the reason I even preface that is because when I say I may have lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision. Sight, to me, is the physical, the vision is the mental. And so my mental was helping others, and it's always been that way, whether it was me playing sports, I had to help in some way, because I played team sports. Now, did I play any individual? No, I played all team sports. I did bowling, I did football, the basketball and ran track. All of those are team sports. And so you can roll in singles, but at the same sense, some point you're going to be doing either doubles or three or four person teams. So most of the time I was doing teams and doubles. But anyway, I was always doing some kind of helping. I grew up with siblings. I had to help somebody. I, you know, I grew up with without much, so we had to help each other. Hey, you don't know how to cook. Let me show you. You don't know how to fix this in the microwave. Let me show you, you know. And so, um, when I got to the military, I had to help, you know, when I was became an instructor, I was helping teach the people who are coming in new and all these different times I'm helping people. And now I get to a point where, not only I have to help myself get back to where I can have some kind of normalcy of life, but what really is a normal life? You know what I mean? Yeah, I had to help others understand that if I can make it through this, you can make it through what you're dealing with as well, and be there to help you.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 How about going the other way? Though you needed help too, yeah, yeah. And were you advanced enough in your thinking at the time that you were perfectly willing to accept help as well?   Kijuan Amey ** 52:12 Uh, no, I had my moments. Um, there. There's a chapter in my book I called, uh, it's called the depression set in, and that was when I was at one of my lower points, because not too long after depression, where the suicidal thoughts, the suicidal thoughts, luckily, didn't take me out and I never attempted, because I was able to think my way. I'm a very critical thinker, Problem Solver kind of guy, so I was able to think my way out of even having those thoughts again. And I said, Hey, man, this is not you. I don't know what it is, but it's not you. And so instead of me continuing to have those thoughts, I started asking people questions, what can I do? Because this is not like, it's not working, whatever life is not working for me, right? You know, and I'm a faith believer. So my grandmother, I was living with her at the time, and the first she's a faith believer as well. And the first thing she says is, you know, just pray. You know, just pray about it. I said, Grandma, we pray every day. Hear me clearly. I didn't say, some days we pray every day this obviously, and I'm not saying it's not working, but it needs something more. And so she was, well, I don't know what to tell you. And then eventually she goes in her room and thinks about it for a minute, and she said, Why don't you call your uncle? And I said, You know what? It's not a bad idea. And he, by the way, he's a senior pastor at his church, and so I said, that's not a bad idea. I didn't think to call my pastor because I didn't want to bother him. It's kind of one of those things you just felt like, I don't want him to think about that. I've had it on his mind, you know, stuff like that. And so I called my uncle, and I was telling telling him how I was feeling, and all I heard him say was, hold on key, I'm on the way. It was like eight o'clock at night, so for him to be like, Hey, I'm HOLD ON key, I'm on the way. That's what they call me Ki, my family. Some of them call me kiwi, but some call me Ki. But anyway, just as long as they don't call me late for dinner. And so I was like, Wait, he he's coming over here, you know? So I said, Okay. And I hung up the phone, and my grandma's like, Well, what did he say? I said, he said he's on the way. She's like, he went. I said, Exactly. That's what I said. And so she said, Oh Lord, well, let me put on some clothes. I said, let you put on some clothes. I need to put on some clothes. And. Yeah, and so anyway, we both get dressed somewhat. I wasn't, like, fully dressed. I just put on, like, some, you know, some basketball shorts, a shirt, yeah, you know, stuff like that. Because I'm thinking, we're just going to hang out at the house. He's going to talk to me. He's like, Hey, man, you want to throw on some pants and, you know, go out and put on some shoes. I said, Where we going? It's like, for a ride. I said, Okay, uh, yeah, uh, grandma, and she came back in there, she's like, Yeah, he's like, we're gonna go for a ride. Um, can you get my sweatpants from over this here? Because I knew where everything was in the room, and you know how it is, we know where everything is, where we put stuff. We know exactly where it is, right? And so I knew everything was get my sweat pants from this drawer and get my shirt from that drawer. And I said, No, it's the second drawer, not the third and stuff. So we I get dressed, we go for a ride, and he's talking. No, no, I'm talking first. He let me talk. He said, So key, tell me what's up. I said, I ran through the gambit of what I was going down with me, how I had the depressed thoughts, how I had some suicidal thoughts, but I had to bring myself back out of this, and I just could not figure out why this was coming over me like that. And he was like, Uh huh. And then, you know, I just stopped talking for a while. He said, You know what key I said, What's that? He said, I'm surprised it took you this long. I was like, What do you mean? He was like, Dude, I thought this would have happened to you a long time ago? He said, I've been waiting on this. And I said, that's crazy. Like I'm sitting there thinking, man, what the heck? You know? I'm thinking. People ain't thinking about me. Nobody's like, really, can't they see me smiling, laughing, giggling and all that stuff. So they're probably not even thinking about it, you know. But he was actually prepared. He's prepared for what I call the breakdown. And he said, Keith, I think the best thing you can do, and this is when we pulled over somewhere and start talking. He said, The best thing I think you can do with this situation is you're going to have to embrace and confront the issue. And I said, Can you explain that a little bit more? He's like, Yeah, yeah. He said, what it is, I think, is your the hope that we all have is for you to regain your eyesight. But the real realization is you don't have it right now. So I need you to live like you don't have it and hope that one day you'll get it. So don't keep dwelling on the hope part. Just live like you don't have it, and that way you'll keep moving forward versus thinking you're going to get it, because these thoughts are taking you down. Every day you wake up, every time you wake up from a nap, you think you're gonna open your eyes and see something that's gonna keep bringing you further and further down. I need you to embrace this thing and don't live in the denial phase of it happening. And that was when I started to come out like that was when I really started to gain some strength and a stronger mindset. Very wise words, oh, yeah, no, these are all he is, trust me, I'm just regurgitating them. I'm sorry. Oh, I said, yeah, these were definitely his words. I'm just regurgitating,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 yeah, well, but, but certainly some, some good wisdom there. But you also then chose to follow, which is great, and probably whether he's surprised it took so long. It sounds like it all happened at the right time, because you are also willing to listen, which is great. So you you moved forward. When did you form your company?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:12 I mean, on paper, it was like two years ago, okay, um, but like I said, officially, I started speaking in 2019 right? I understand that, yeah. But so I always count 2019 because I really believe as soon as you start doing something, you're doing it, right, yeah, you understand and and the legality side of it, hey, you can have that. I don't care. But yeah. So that's how I view it.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 So how did 10 years, if you will, even though some of it was less active, but how did 10 years in the military help prepare you for public speaking and what you're doing today?   Kijuan Amey ** 59:56 Oh, wow. I mean, well, first off, like I told you, the resilience coaching. Mm. Um, that's part of it, and that's all they used to talk about in the military, being resilient. We used to have, like, a training, I think it was every year, is it every year or twice a year, or something like that, but we used to have training on that stuff. Um, speaking, I I never really wanted to be a public speaker. I'll be honest. Um, I do have to stay that, say, say that, because I was not one who wanted to be in the spotlight. But if the spotlight found me, I'm okay with it. You know that that's that's what I was okay with. If it found me, that's fine, but I'm not trying to take over it. Don't put it on me, shine that light somewhere else and so, but what happened with that? Okay, yes, I took, I was in college for a while, and I did take a public speaking class with the instructor. Upgrade. You have to do public speaking, because you have to give presentations going through the pre training and the actual training, the certification training. So those were different. And also the the group sizes were different. Size you might be talking to one person you might be talking to an auditorium full. Mm, hmm. So there, there was that. And, you know? So these different things, I speak for different things at my church, you know? And so it started to kind of snowball again. Different things were building me up to that point, and as I got and you'll, you'll appreciate this here, as I got into my vision, or the eyesight loss, I understood that I have a superpower. Now, yeah, and I know people like a superpower. What are you talking about, man? So I can't see you so the the looks on your faces don't affect me, the fact that I'm looking at, or supposedly looking at, engaging an audience of one to 10 to 100 to even 1500 because I have spoken to over 1500 people before, it does not affect me, yeah? And that is like us to me, my superpower now. So that's how I've changed all of this to be fitting for me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:32 yeah. Well, so let me ask you this. We've been doing this for a while, but I want to ask you one more question. Other people are certainly going through challenges. They're experiencing difficulties in their lives, and maybe some life altering kinds of situations. What kind of advice would you give them?   Kijuan Amey ** 1:02:54 Oh, the first one I can easily give you don't give up, and it's easily easy to give, but it's not easy to do. So I do have to say that you but if you keep that in the back of your mind, don't give up and you keep saying that to yourself, make it an affirmation. Put it on your vision board, put it in as a reminder in your phone, whatever you need to keep you grounded in that concept of, don't give up. And so that's one thing I would say. And for myself, I say this a lot, my situation, whether it's me being blind, me being having a traumatic brain injury, me having emotional, you know, flare ups, spinal cord issues or lack of mobility, what, whatever it is my situation that doesn't define who I am. I define who I am.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 So that's what I'll leave people with. And that is so true for everyone. Your your conditions don't define you. You've defined you, and you can choose how you want to be defined. Which gets back to, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Yep. Well, key one, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that people take this to heart, and I hope it will generate more business for you, if people want to reach out to you, maybe for coaching or for speaking and so on. How do they do that? Yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:04:33 and I appreciate you saying that. So again, you can go to my website. That's Amey, motivation.com A, M, E, y, motivation.com you can also find my book on there. So don't focus on why me from motorcycle accident to miracle. You can also go on Amazon, Kindle Apple books as well as audible to find my book as well. So I do have audio versions out there for those who like to listen to their book. Books and for speaking engagements, feel free to click that book me link you can speak book me for a convention or conference or an event, a gala, high school, college, whatever you want me to come speak for. Come get me because I am all over it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 How many speaking events do you do a year.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:21 I don't count. Okay, if I try to count,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 you know what I mean? I know the feeling, yeah,   Kijuan Amey ** 1:05:27 I just do Hey, hey. That's, I think that's what Nike said. Just do it, man.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:31 Yeah, exactly right. Well, Kijuan, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are out there listening or watching. Really, we're grateful that you're here. I hope that what we've talked about today not only inspires you, but it gives you some good life thoughts that you can go use. Because certainly, everything that we got to discuss today is relevant, not just if you are having a challenge in your life, but it's something that is important for all of us. Life lessons like these don't grow on trees, and I hope that you'll enjoy them and use them. Reach out to key one. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at access, A, B, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, love you to please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. We love your reviews and your thoughts, so please do that, and as I also love to do, and that is to ask you, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on this podcast. And Kijuan you as well, love to get your thoughts. Feel free to reach out, introduce us to anyone who you think ought to be a guest. We're always looking for more people who want to come on and and share their stories and help us all become more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, really appreciate your time today, everyone and Kiju, especially you. Thanks for being here. This has been wonderful.   Kijuan Amey ** 1:07:15 Thank you again. I really appreciate you having me on to tell my story.   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:22 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Ken Solosky was the NYPD's Chief Pilot on 9/11, responsible for coordinating helicopter operations during the most devastating day in modern American history. In this short teaser, you'll hear a preview of our in-depth interview with Ken, including why rooftop rescues at the World Trade Center weren't attempted and how the team coped with confusion, misinformation, and tragic loss. The full episode is available now on our new podcast: Rotary Wing Show.

David Mayernik is an architect, artist, writer, educator and most of all, he is a life-long student. David grew up in Allentown Pennsylvania. As he tells us during this episode, even at a young age of two he already loved to draw. He says he always had a pencil and paper with him and he used them constantly. His mother kept many of his drawings and he still has many of them to this day.   After graduating from University of Notre Dame David held several positions with various architectural firms. He always believed that he learned more by teaching himself, however, and eventually he decided to leave the professional world of architecture and took teaching positions at Notre Dame. He recently retired and is now Professor Emeritus at Notre Dame.   Our conversation is far ranging including discussions of life, the importance of learning and growing by listening to your inner self. David offers us many wonderful and insightful lessons and thoughts we all can use. We even talk some about about how technology such as Computer Aided Design systems, (CAD), are affecting the world of Architecture. I know you will enjoy what David has to say. Please let me know your thoughts through email at michaelhi@accessibe.com.     About the Guest:   David Mayernik is an architect, artist, writer, and educator. He was born in 1960 in Allentown, Pennsylvania; his parents were children of immigrants from Slovakia and Italy. He is a Fellow of the American Academy in Rome and the British Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures, and Commerce, and has won numerous grants, awards and competitions, including the Gabriel Prize for research in France, the Steedman Competition, and the Minnesota State Capitol Grounds competition (with then partner Thomas N. Rajkovich). In 1995 he was named to the decennial list of the top forty architects in the United States under forty. In the fall of 2022, he was a resident at the Bogliasco Foundation in Liguria and the Cini foundation in Venice.   His design work for the TASIS campus in Switzerland over twenty-eight years has been recognized with a Palladio Award from Traditional Building magazine, an honorable mention in the INTBAU Excellence Awards, and a jury prize from the Prix Européen d'Architecture Philippe Rotthier. TASIS Switzerland was named one of the nine most beautiful boarding schools in the world by AD Magazine in March 2024. For ten years he also designed a series of new buildings for TASIS England in Surrey.   David Mayernik studied fresco painting with the renowned restorer Leonetto Tintori, and he has painted frescoes for the American Academy in Rome, churches in the Mugello and Ticino, and various buildings on the TASIS campus in Switzerland. He designed stage sets for the Haymarket Opera company of Chicago for four seasons between 2012 and 2014. He won the competition to paint the Palio for his adopted home of Lucca in 2013. His paintings and drawings have been exhibited in New York, Chicago, London, Innsbruck, Rome, and Padova and featured in various magazines, including American Artist and Fine Art Connoisseur.   David Mayernik is Professor Emeritus with the University of Notre Dame, where for twenty years he taught in the School of Architecture. He is the author of two books, The Challenge of Emulation in Art and Architecture (Routledge, UK) and Timeless Cities: An Architect's Reflections on Renaissance Italy, (Basic Books), and numerous essays and book chapters, including “The Baroque City” for the Oxford Handbook of the Baroque. In 2016 he created the online course The Meaning of Rome for Notre Dame, hosted on the edX platform, which had an audience of six thousand followers. Ways to connect with David:   Website: www.davidmayernik.com Instagram: davidmayernik LinkedIn: davidmayernik EdX: The Meaning of Rome https://www.edx.org/learn/humanities/university-of-notre-dame-the-meaning-of-rome-the-renaissance-and-baroque-city     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:17 Well, hi and welcome once again. Wherever you happen to be, to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with David Mayernik, unless you're in Europe, and then it's David Mayernik, but either way, we're glad to have him. He is an architect. He is an award winning architect. He's an author. He's done a number of things in his life, and we're going to talk about all of those, and it's kind of more fun to let him be the one to talk more about it, and then I can just pick up and ask questions as we go, and that's what we'll do. But we're really glad that he's here. So David, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   David Mayernik ** 01:57 Oh, thanks so much. Michael, thanks for the invitation. I'm looking forward to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 Well, I know we've been working on getting this set up, and David actually happens to be in Italy today, as opposed to being in the US. He was a professor at Notre Dame for 20 years, but he has spent a lot of time in Europe and elsewhere, and I'm sure he's going to talk about that. But why don't we start, as I mentioned earlier, as I love to do, tell us kind of about the early David growing up.   David Mayernik ** 02:25 Well, so my both of my parents passed away several years ago, and when I was at my mom's funeral, one of our next door neighbors was telling my wife what I was like when I was a kid, and she said he was very quiet and very intense. And I suppose that's how I was perceived. I'm not sure I perceived myself that way I did. The thing about me is I've always drawn my mom. I mean, lots of kids draw, but I drew like credibly, well, when I was, you know, two and three years old. And of course, my mother saved everything. But the best thing about it was that I always had paper and pencil available. You know, we were terribly well off. We weren't poor, but we weren't, you know, well to do, but I never lacked for paper and pencils, and that just allowed me to just draw as much as I possibly could.   Michael Hingson ** 03:16 And so I guess the other question is, of course, do you still have all those old drawings since your mom kept   David Mayernik ** 03:23 them? Well, you know? Yeah, actually, after she passed, I did get her, Well, her collection of them. I don't know that all of them. My father had a penchant for throwing things away, unfortunately. So some of the archive is no longer with us, but no but enough of it. Just odds and bits from different areas of my life. And the thing is, you know, I was encouraged enough. I mean, all kids get encouraged. I think when they're young, everything they do is fabulous, but I had enough encouragement from people who seem to take it seriously that I thought maybe I had something and and it was the kind of thing that allowed me to have enough confidence in myself that I actually enjoyed doing it and and mostly, my parents were just impressed. You know, it just was impressive to them. And so I just happily went along my own way. The thing about it was that I really wanted to find my own path as somebody who drew and had a chance in high school for a scholarship to a local art school. I won a competition for a local art school scholarship, and I went for a couple of lessons, and I thought, you know, they're just teaching me to draw like them. I want to draw like me. So for better or worse, I'm one of those autodidacts who tries to find my own way, and, you know, it has its ups and downs. I mean, the downside of it is it's a slower learning process. Is a lot more trial and error. But the upside of it is, is that it's your own. I mean, essentially, I had enough of an ego that, you know, I really wanted to do. Things my way.   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 Well, you illustrate something that I've believed and articulate now I didn't used to, but I do now a lot more, which is I'm my own best teacher. And the reality is that you you learn by doing, and people can can give you information. And, yeah, you're right. Probably they wanted you to mostly just draw like them. But the bottom line is, you already knew from years of drawing as a child, you wanted to perhaps go a slightly different way, and you worked at it, and it may have taken longer, but look at what you learned.   David Mayernik ** 05:37 Yeah, I think it's, I mean, for me, it's, it's important that whatever you do, you do because you feel like you're being true to yourself somehow. I mean, I think that at least that's always been important to me, is that I don't, I don't like doing things for the sake of doing them. I like doing them because I think they matter. And I like, you know, I think essentially pursuing my own way of doing it meant that it always was, I mean, beyond just personal, it was something I was really committed to. And you know, the thing about it, eventually, for my parents was they thought it was fabulous, you know, loved great that you draw, but surely you don't intend to be an artist, because, you know, you want to have a job and make a living. And so I eventually realized that in high school, that while they, well, they probably would have supported anything I did that, you know, I was being nudged towards something a little bit more practical, which I think happens to a lot of kids who choose architecture like I did. It's a way, it's a practical way of being an artist and and that's we could talk about that. But I think that's not always true.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 Bill, go ahead, talk about that. Well, I think that the   David Mayernik ** 06:44 thing about architecture is that it's become, well, one it became a profession in America, really, in the 20th century. I mean, it's in the sense that there was a licensing exam and all the requirements of what we think of as, you know, a professional service that, you know, like being a lawyer or a doctor, that architecture was sort of professionalized in the 20th century, at least in the United States. And, and it's a business, you know, ostensibly, I mean, you're, you know, you're doing what you do for a fee. And, and so architecture tries to balance the art part of it, or the creative side, the professional side of it, and the business side. And usually it's some rather imperfect version of all of those things. And the hard part, I think the hardest part to keep alive is the art part, because the business stuff and the professional stuff can really kind of take over. And that's been my trial. Challenge is to try to have it all three ways, essentially.   Michael Hingson ** 07:39 Do you think that Frank Lloyd Wright had a lot to do with bringing architecture more to the forefront of mindsets, mindsets, and also, of course, from an art standpoint, clearly, he had his own way of doing things.   David Mayernik ** 07:54 Yeah, absolutely he comes from, I mean, I wouldn't call it a rebellious tradition, but there was a streak of chafing at East Coast European classicism that happened in Chicago. Louis Sullivan, you know, is mostly responsible for that. And I but, but Right, had this, you know, kind of heroic sense of himself and and I think that his ability to draw, which was phenomenal. His sense that he wanted to do something different, and his sense that he wanted to do something American, made him a kind of a hero. Eventually, I think it coincided with America's growing sense of itself. And so for me, like lot of kids in America, my from my day, if you told somebody in high school you wanted to be an architect, they would give you a book on Frank Lloyd Wright. I mean, that's just, you know, part of the package.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 Yeah, of course, there are others as well, but still, he brought a lot into it. And of course there, there are now more architects that we hear about and designers and so on the people what, I m Pei, who designed the world, original World Trade Center and other things like that. Clearly, there are a number of people who have made major impacts on the way we design and think of Building and Construction today,   David Mayernik ** 09:17 you know, I mean America's, you know, be kind of, it really was a leader in the development of architecture in the 20th century. I mean, in the 19th century was very much, you know, following what was happening in Europe. But essentially, by the 20th century, the America had a sense of itself that didn't always mean that it rejected the European tradition. Sometimes it tried to do it, just bigger and better, but, but it also felt like it had its, you know, almost a responsibility to find its own way, like me and, you know, come up with an American kind of architecture and and so it's always been in a kind of dialog with architecture from around the world. I mean, especially in Europe, at Frank Lloyd Wright was heavily influenced by Japanese architecture and. And so we've always seen ourselves, I think, in relationship to the world. And it's just the question of whether we were master or pupil to a certain extent,   Michael Hingson ** 10:07 and in reality, probably a little bit of both.   David Mayernik ** 10:12 Yeah, and we are, and I think, you know, acknowledging who we are, the fact that we didn't just, you know, spring from the earth in the United States, where we're all, I mean, essentially all immigrants, mostly, and essentially we, you know, essentially bring, we have baggage, essentially, as a culture, from lots of other places. And that's actually an advantage. I mean, I think it's actually what makes us a rich culture, is the diversity. I mean, even me, my father's family was Slovak, my mother's family Italian. And, you know from when I tell you know Europeans that they think that's just quintessentially American. That's what makes you an American, is that you're not a purebred of some kind.   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 Yeah, yeah. Pure purebred American is, is really sort of nebulous and and not necessarily overly accurate, because you are probably immigrants or part other kinds of races or nationalities as well. And that's, that's okay.   David Mayernik ** 11:08 It's, it's rich, you know, I think it's, it's a richer. It's the extent to which you want to engage with it. And the interesting thing about my parents was that they were both children of first generation immigrants. My mom's parents had been older Italian, and they were already married, and when they came to the States, my father's parents were younger and Slovak, and they met in the United States. And my father really wasn't that interested in his Slovak heritage. I mean, just, you know, he could speak some of the language, you know, really feel like it was something he wanted to hold on to or pass along, was my mom was, I mean, she loved her parents. She, you know, spoke with him in Italian, or actually not even Italian, the dialect from where her parents came from, which is north of Venice. And so she, I think she kind of, whether consciously or unconsciously, passed that on to me, that sense that I wanted to be. I was interested in where I came from, where the origins of my where my roots were, and it's something that had an appeal for me that wasn't just it wasn't front brain, it was really kind of built into who I was, which is why, you know, one of the reasons I chose to go to Notre Dame to study where I also wound up teaching like, welcome back Carter, is that I we had a Rome program, and so I've been teaching in the Rome program for our school, but we, I was there 44 years ago as a student.   Michael Hingson ** 12:28 Yeah. So quite a while, needless to say. And you know, I think, well, my grandmother on my mother's side was Polish, but I I never did get much in the way of information about the culture and so on from her and and my mom never really dealt with it much, because she was totally from The Bronx in New York, and was always just American, so I never really got a lot of that. But very frankly, in talking to so many people on this podcast over almost the last four years, talking to a number of people whose parents and grandparents all came to this country and how that affected them. It makes me really appreciate the kind of people who we all are, and we all are, are a conglomerate of so many different cultures, and that's okay, yeah? I mean,   David Mayernik ** 13:31 I think it's more than okay, and I think we need to just be honest about it, yeah. And, you know, kind of celebrate it, because the Italians brought with them, you know, tremendous skills. For example, a lot of my grandfather was a stone mason. You know, during the Depression, he worked, you know, the for the WPA essentially sponsored a whole series of public works projects in the parks in the town I grew up in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And Allentown has a fabulous park system. And my grandfather built a lot of stone walls in the parks in the 1930s and, you know, all these cultures that came to the states often brought, you know, specialized skills. You know, from where they they came from, and, and they enriched the American, you know, skill set, essentially, and, and that's, you know, again, that's we are, who we are because of that, you know, I celebrated I, you know, I'm especially connected to my Italian heritage. I feel like, in part because my grandfather, the stone mason, was a bit of jack of all trades. He could paint and draw. And my mom, you know, wrote poetry and painted. And even though she mostly, you know, in my life, was a was a housewife, but before she met my father, and they got married relatively late for their day, she had a professional life in World War Two, my mom actually went to Penn State for a couple of years in the start of at the start of the war, and then parents wanted her to come home, and so she did two years of engineering. Penn State. When she came back to Allentown, she actually got a job at the local airplane manufacturing plant that was making fighter planes for the United States called company called volte, and she did drafting for them. And then after World War Two, she got a job for the local power company drafting modern electrical kitchens and and so I've inherited all my mom's drafting equipment. And, you know, she's, she's very much a kind of a child of the culture that she came from, and in the sense that it was a, you know, artistic culture, a creative culture. And, you know, I definitely happy and proud of   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 that. You know, one of the things that impresses me, and I think about a lot in talking to so many people whose parents and grandparents immigrated to this country and so on, is not just the skill sets that they brought, but the work ethic that they had, that they imparted to people. And I think people who have had a number of generations here have not always kept that, and I think they've lost something very valuable, because that work ethic is what made those people who they were   David Mayernik ** 16:08 absolutely I mean, my Yeah, I mean my father. I mean absolutely true is, I mean tireless worker, capable of tremendous self sacrifice and and, you know, and that whole generation, I mean, he fought in World War Two. He actually joined, joined the Navy underage. He lied about his age to get in the Navy and that. But they were capable of self, tremendous self sacrifice and tremendous effort. And, you know, I think, you know, we're always, you know, these days, we always talk about work life balance. And I have to say, being an architect, most architects don't have a great work life balance. Mostly it's, it's a lot of work and a little bit of life. And that's, I don't, you know. I think not everybody survives that. Not every architects marriage survives that mine has. But I think it's, you know, that the idea that you're, you're sort of defined by what you do. I think there's a lot of talk these days about that's not a good thing. I I'm sort of okay with that. I'm sort of okay with being defined by what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 17:13 Yeah, and, and that that's, that's okay, especially if you're okay with it. That's good. Well, you So you went to Notre Dame, and obviously dealt with architecture. There some,   David Mayernik ** 17:28 yeah. I mean, the thing, the great thing about Notre Dame is to have the Rome program, and that was the idea of actually a Sicilian immigrant to the States in the early 20th century who became a professor at Notre Dame. And he had, he won the Paris prize. A guy named Frank Montana who won the Paris prize in the 1930s went to Harvard and was a professor at Notre Dame. And he had the good idea that, you know, maybe sending kids to five years of architecture education in Indiana, maybe wasn't the best, well rounded education possible, and maybe they should get out of South Bend for a year, and he, on his own initiative, without even support from the university, started a Rome program, and then said to the university, hey, we have a Rome program now. And so that was, that was his instinct to do that. And while I got, I think, a great education there, especially after Rome, the professor, one professor I had after Rome, was exceptional for me. But you know, Rome was just the opportunity to see great architecture. I mean, I had seen some. I mean, I, you know, my parents would go to Philadelphia, New York and, you know, we I saw some things. But, you know, I wasn't really bowled over by architecture until I went to Rome. And just the experience of that really changed my life, and it gave me a direction,   Michael Hingson ** 18:41 essentially. So the Rome program would send you to Rome for a year.   David Mayernik ** 18:46 Yeah, which is unusual too, because a lot of overseas programs do a semester. We were unusual in that the third year out of a five year undergraduate degree in architecture, the whole year is spent in Rome. And you know, when you're 20 ish, you know, 20 I turned 21 when I was over there. It's a real transition time in your life. I mean, it's, it was really transformative. And for all of us, small of my classmates, I mean, we're all kind of grew up. We all became a bit, you know, European. We stopped going to football games when we went back on campus, because it wasn't cool anymore, but, but we, we definitely were transformed by it personally, but, it really opened our eyes to what architecture was capable of, and that once you've, once you've kind of seen that, you know, once you've been to the top of the mountain, kind of thing, it can really get under your skin. And, you know, kind of sponsor whatever you do for the rest of your life. At least for me, it   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 did, yeah, yeah. So what did you do after you graduated?   David Mayernik ** 19:40 Well, I graduated, and I think also a lot of our students lately have had a pretty reasonably good economy over the last couple of decades, that where it's been pretty easy for our students to get a job. I graduated in a recession. I pounded the pavements a lot. I went, you know, staying with my parents and. Allentown, went back and forth to New York, knocking on doors. There was actually a woman who worked at the unemployment agency in New York who specialized in architects, and she would arrange interviews with firms. And, you know, I just got something for the summer, essentially, and then finally, got a job in the in the fall for somebody I wanted to work with in Philadelphia and and that guy left that firm after about three months because he won a competition. He didn't take me with him, and I was in a firm that really didn't want to be with. I wanted to be with him, not with the firm. And so I then I picked up stakes and moved to Chicago and worked for an architect who'd been a visiting professor at Notre Dame eventually became dean at Yale Tom Beebe, and it was a great learning experience, but it was also a lot of hours at low pay. You know, I don't think, I don't think my students, I can't even tell my students what I used to make an hour as a young architect. I don't think they would understand, yeah, I mean, I really don't, but it was, it was a it was the sense that you were, that your early years was a kind of, I mean an apprenticeship. I mean almost an unpaid apprenticeship at some level. I mean, I needed to make enough money to pay the rent and eat, but that was about it. And and so I did that, but I bounced around a lot, you know, and a lot of kids, I think a lot of our students, when they graduate, they think that getting a job is like a marriage, like they're going to be in it forever. And, you know, I, for better or worse, I moved around a lot. I mean, I moved every time I hit what I felt was like a point of diminishing returns. When I felt like I was putting more in and getting less out, I thought it was time to go and try something else. And I don't know that's always good advice. I mean, it can make you look flighty or unstable, but I kind of always followed my my instinct on that.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 I don't remember how old I was. You're talking about wages. But I remember it was a Sunday, and my parents were reading the newspaper, and they got into a discussion just about the fact that the minimum wage had just been changed to be $1.50 an hour. I had no concept of all of that. But of course, now looking back on it, $1.50 an hour, and looking at it now, it's pretty amazing. And in a sense, $1.50 an hour, and now we're talking about $15 and $16 an hour, and I had to be, I'm sure, under 10. So it was sometime between 1958 and 1960 or so, or maybe 61 I don't remember exactly when, but in a sense, looking at it now, I'm not sure that the minimum wage has gone up all that much. Yes, 10 times what it was. But so many other things are a whole lot more than 10 times what they were back then,   David Mayernik ** 23:01 absolutely, yeah. I mean, I mean, in some ways also, my father was a, my father was a factory worker. I mean, he tried to have lots of other businesses of his own. He, you're, you're obviously a great salesman. And the one skill my father didn't have is he could, he could, like, for example, he had a home building business. He could build a great house. He just couldn't sell it. And so, you know, I think he was a factory worker, but he was able to send my sister and I to private college simultaneously on a factory worker salary, you know, with, with, I mean, I had some student loan debt, but not a lot. And that's, that's not possible today.   Michael Hingson ** 23:42 No, he saved and put money aside so that you could do that, yeah, and,   David Mayernik ** 23:47 and he made enough. I mean, essentially, the cost of college was not that much. And he was, you know, right, yeah. And he had a union job. It was, you know, reasonably well paid. I mean, we lived in a, you know, a nice middle class neighborhood, and, you know, we, we had a nice life growing up, and he was able to again, send us to college. And I that's just not possible for without tremendous amount of debt. It's not possible today. So the whole scale of our economy shifted tremendously. What I was making when I was a young architect. I mean, it was not a lot then, but I survived. Fact, actually saved money in Chicago for a two month summer in Europe after that. So, you know, essentially, the cost of living was, it didn't take a lot to cover your your expenses, right? The advantage of that for me was that it allowed me time when I had free time when I after that experience, and I traveled to Europe, I came back and I worked in Philadelphia for the same guy who had left the old firm in Philadelphia and went off on his own, started his own business. I worked for him for about nine months, but I had time in the evenings, because I didn't have to work 80 hours a week to do other things. I taught myself how to paint. And do things that I was interested in, and I could experiment and try things and and, you know, because surviving wasn't all that hard. I mean, it was easy to pay your bills and, and I think that's one of the things that's, I think, become more onerous, is that, I think for a lot of young people just kind of dealing with both college debt and then, you know, essentially the cost of living. They don't have a lot of time or energy to do anything else. And you know, for me, that was, I had the luxury of having time and energy to invest in my own growth, let's say as a more career, as a creative person. And you know, I also, I also tell students that, you know, there are a lot of hours in the day, you know, and whatever you're doing in an office. There are a lot of hours after that, you could be doing something else, and that I used every one of those hours as best I could.   Michael Hingson ** 25:50 Yeah. Well, you know, we're all born with challenges in life. What kind of challenges, real challenges did you have growing up as you look back on it?   David Mayernik ** 26:01 Yeah, my, I mean, my, I mean, there was some, there was some, a few rocky times when my father was trying to have his own business. And, you know, I'm not saying we grew up. We didn't struggle, but it wasn't, you know, always smooth sailing. But I think one of the things I learned about being an architect, which I didn't realize, and only kind of has been brought home to me later. Right now, I have somebody who's told me not that long ago, you know? You know, the problem is, architecture is a gentleman's profession. You know that IT architecture, historically was practiced by people from a social class, who knew, essentially, they grew up with the people who would become their clients, right? And so the way a lot of architects built their practice was essentially on, you know, family connections and personal connections, college connections. And I didn't have that advantage. So, you know, I've, I've essentially had to define myself or establish myself based on what I'm capable of doing. And you know, it's not always a level playing field. The great breakthrough for me, in a lot of ways, was that one of the one of my classmates and I entered a big international competition when we were essentially 25 years old. I think we entered. I turned 26 and it was an open competition. So, you know, no professional requirements. You know, virtually no entry fee to redesign the state capitol grounds of Minnesota, and it was international, and we, and we actually were selected as one of the top five teams that were allowed to proceed onto the second phase, and at which point we we weren't licensed architects. We didn't have a lot of professional sense or business sense, so we had to associate with a local firm in Minnesota and and we competed for the final phase. We did most of the work. The firm supported us, but they gave us basically professional credibility and and we won. We were the architects of the state capitol grounds in Minnesota, 26 years old, and that's because the that system of competition was basically a level playing field. It was, you know, ostensibly anonymous, at least the first phase, and it was just basically who had the best design. And you know, a lot of the way architecture gets architects get chosen. The way architecture gets distributed is connections, reputation, things like that, but, but you know, when you find those avenues where it's kind of a level playing field and you get to show your stuff. It doesn't matter where you grew up or who you are, it just matters how good you are, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 28:47 well, and do you think it's still that way today?   David Mayernik ** 28:51 There are a lot fewer open professional competitions. They're just a lot fewer of them. It was the and, you know, maybe they learned a lesson. I mean, maybe people like me shouldn't have been winning competitions. I mean, at some level, we were out of our league. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say, from a design point of view. I mean, we were very capable of doing what the project involved, but we were not ready for the hardball of collaborating with a big firm and and the and the politics of what we were doing and the business side of it, we got kind of crushed, and, and, and eventually they never had the money to build the project, so the project just kind of evaporated. And the guy I used to work with in Philadelphia told me, after I won the competition, he said, you know, because he won a competition. He said, You know, the second project is the hardest one to get, you know, because you might get lucky one time and you win a competition, the question is, how do you build practice out of that?   Michael Hingson ** 29:52 Yeah, and it's a good point, yeah, yeah.   David Mayernik ** 29:55 I mean, developing some kind of continuity is hard. I mean, I. Have a longer, more discontinuous practice after that, but it's that's the hard part.   Michael Hingson ** 30:07 Well, you know, I mentioned challenges before, and we all, we all face challenges and so on. How do we overcome the challenges, our inherited challenges, or the perceived challenges that we have? How do we overcome those and work to move forward, to be our best? Because that's clearly kind of what you're talking about here.   David Mayernik ** 30:26 Yeah, well, the true I mean, so the challenges that we're born with, and I think there are also some challenges that, you know, we impose on ourselves, right? I mean, in this, in the best sense, I mean the ways that we challenge ourselves. And for me, I'm a bit of an idealist, and you know, the world doesn't look kindly on idealist. If you know, from a business, professional point of view, idealism is often, I'm not saying it's frowned upon, but it's hardly encouraged and rewarded and but I think that for me, I've learned over time that it's you really just beating your head against the wall is not the best. A little bit of navigating your way around problems rather than trying to run through them or knock them over is a smarter strategy. And so you have to be a little nimble. You have to be a little creative about how you find work and essentially, how you keep yourself afloat and and if you're if you're open to possibilities, and if you take some risks, you can, you can actually navigate yourself through a series of obstacles and actually have a rich, interesting life, but it may not follow the path that you thought you were starting out on at the beginning. And that's the, I think that's the skill that not everybody has.   Michael Hingson ** 31:43 The other part about that, though, is that all too often, we don't really give thought to what we're going to do, or we we maybe even get nudges about what we ought to do, but we discount them because we think, Oh, that's just not the way to do it. Rather than stepping back and really analyzing what we're seeing, what we're hearing. And I, for 1am, a firm believer in the fact that our inner self, our inner voice, will guide us if we give it the opportunity to do that.   David Mayernik ** 32:15 You know, I absolutely agree. I think a lot of people, you know, I was, I for, I have, for better or worse, I've always had a good sense of what I wanted to do with my life, even if architecture was a you know, conscious way to do something that was not exactly maybe what I dreamed of doing, it was a, you know, as a more rational choice. But, but I've, but I've basically followed my heart, more or less, and I've done the things that I always believed in it was true too. And when I meet people, especially when I have students who don't really know what they love, or, you know, really can't tell you what they really are passionate about, but my sense of it is, this is just my I might be completely wrong, but my sense of it is, they either can't admit it to themselves, or they can't admit it to somebody else that they that, either, in the first case, they're not prepared to listen to themselves and actually really deep, dig deep and think about what really matters to them, or if they do know what that is, they're embarrassed to admit it, or they're embarrassed to tell somebody else. I think most of us have some drive, or some internal, you know, impetus towards something and, and you're right. I mean, learning to listen to that is, is a, I mean, it's rewarding. I mean, essentially, you become yourself. You become more, or the best possible self you can be, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 33:42 Yeah, I agree. And I guess that that kind of answers the question I was was thinking of, and that is, basically, as you're doing things in life, should you follow your dreams?   David Mayernik ** 33:53 You know, there's a lot, a lot of people are writing these days, if you read, if you're just, you know, on the, on the internet, reading the, you know, advice that you get on, you know, the new services, from the BBC to, you know, any other form of information that's out there, there's a lot of back and forth by between the follow your dreams camp and the don't follow your dreams camp. And the argument of the don't follow your dreams camp seems to be that it's going to be hard and you'll be frustrated, and you know, and that's true, but it doesn't mean you're going to fail, and I don't think anybody should expect life to be easy. So I think if you understand going in, and maybe that's part of my Eastern European heritage that you basically expect life to be hard, not, not that it has to be unpleasant, but you know it's going to be a struggle, but, but if you are true to yourself or follow your dreams, you're probably not going to wake up in the middle of your life with a crisis. You know, because I think a lot of times when you suppress your dreams, they. Stay suppressed forever, and the frustrations come out later, and it's better to just take them on board and try to again, navigate your way through life with those aspirations that you have, that you know are really they're built in like you were saying. They're kind of hardwired to be that person, and it's best to listen to that person.   Michael Hingson ** 35:20 There's nothing wrong with having real convictions, and I think it's important to to step back and make sure that you're really hearing what your convictions are and feeling what your convictions are. But that is what people should do, because otherwise, you're just not going to be happy.   David Mayernik ** 35:36 You're not and you're you're at one level, allowing yourself to manipulate yourself. I mean, essentially, you're, you know, kind of essentially deterring yourself from being who you are. You're probably also susceptible to other people doing that to you, that if you don't have enough sense of yourself, a lot of other people can manipulate you, push you around. And, you know, the thing about having a good sense of yourself is you also know how to stand up for yourself, or at least you know that you're a self that's worth standing up for. And that's you know. That's that, that thing that you know the kids learn in the school yard when you confront the bully, you know you have to, you know, the parents always tell you, you know, stand up to the bully. And at some level, life is going to bully you unless you really are prepared to stand up for something.   Michael Hingson ** 36:25 Yeah, and there's so many examples of that I know as a as a blind person, I've been involved in taking on some pretty major tasks in life. For example, it used to be that anyone with a so called Disability couldn't buy life insurance, and eventually, we took on the insurance industry and won to get the laws passed in every state that now mandate that you can't discriminate against people with disabilities in providing life insurance unless you really have evidence To prove that it's appropriate to do that, and since the laws were passed, there hasn't been any evidence. And the reason is, of course, there never has been evidence, and insurance companies kept claiming they had it, but then when they were challenged to produce it, they couldn't. But the reality is that you can take on major tasks and major challenges and win as long as you really understand that that is what your life is steering you to do,   David Mayernik ** 37:27 yeah, like you said, and also too, having a sense of your your self worth beyond whatever that disability is, that you know what you're capable of, apart from that, you know that's all about what you can't do, but all the things that you can do are the things that should allow you to do anything. And, yeah, I think we're, I think it's a lot of times people will try to define you by what you can't do, you   Michael Hingson ** 37:51 know? And the reality is that those are traditionally misconceptions and inaccurate anyway, as I point out to people, disability does not mean a lack of ability. Although a lot of people say, Well, of course it, it is because it starts with dis. And my response is, what do you then? How do you deal with the words disciple, discern and discrete? For example, you know the fact of the matter is, we all have a disability. Most of you are light dependent. You don't do well with out light in your life, and that's okay. We love you anyway, even though you you have to have light but. But the reality is, in a sense, that's as much a disability is not being light dependent or being light independent. The difference is that light on demand has caused so much focus that it's real easy to get, but it doesn't change the fact that your disability is covered up, but it's still there.   David Mayernik ** 38:47 No, it's true. I mean, I think actually, yeah, knowing. I mean, you're, we're talking about knowing who you are, and, you know, listening to your inner voice and even listening to your aspirations. But also, I mean being pretty honest about where your liabilities are, like what the things are that you struggle with and just recognizing them, and not not to dwell on them, but to just recognize how they may be getting in the way and how you can work around them. You know, one of the things I tell students is that it's really important to be self critical, but, but it's, it's not good to be self deprecating, you know. And I think being self critical if you're going to be a self taught person like I am, in a lot of ways, you you have to be aware of where you're not getting it right. Because I think the problem is sometimes you can satisfy yourself too easily. You're too happy with your own progress. You know, the advantage of having somebody outside teaching you is they're going to tell you when you're doing it wrong, and most people are kind of loath do that for themselves, but, but the other end of that is the people who are so self deprecating, constantly putting themselves down, that they never are able to move beyond it, because they're only aware of what they can't do. And you know, I think balancing self criticism with a sense of your self worth is, you know, one of the great balancing acts of life. You.   Michael Hingson ** 40:00 Well, that's why I've adopted the concept of I'm my own best teacher, because rather than being critical and approaching anything in a negative way, if I realize that I'm going to be my own best teacher, and people will tell me things, I can look at them, and I should look at them, analyze them, step back, internalize them or not, but use that information to grow, then that's what I really should do, and I would much prefer the positive approach of I'm my own best teacher over anything else.   David Mayernik ** 40:31 Yeah, well, I mean, the last kind of teachers, and I, you know, a lot of my students have thought of me as a critical teacher. One of the things I think my students have misunderstood about that is, it's not that I have a low opinion of them. It's actually that I have such a high opinion that I always think they're capable of doing better. Yeah, I think one of the problems in our educational system now is that it's so it's so ratifying and validating. There's so we're so low to criticize and so and the students are so fragile with criticism that they they don't take the criticism well, yeah, we don't give it and, and you without some degree of what you're not quite getting right, you really don't know what you're capable of, right? And, and I think you know. But being but again, being critical is not that's not where you start. I think you start from the aspiration and the hope and the, you know, the actually, the joy of doing something. And then, you know, you take a step back and maybe take a little you know, artists historically had various techniques for judging their own work. Titian used to take one of his paintings and turn it away, turn it facing the wall so that he couldn't see it, and he would come back to it a month later. And, you know, because when he first painted, he thought it was the greatest thing ever painted, he would come back to it a month later and think, you know, I could have done some of those parts better, and you would work on it and fix it. And so, you know, the self criticism comes from this capacity to distance yourself from yourself, look at yourself almost as as hard as it is from the outside, yeah, try to see yourself as other people see you. Because I think in your own mind, you can kind of become completely self referential. And you know, that's that. These are all life skills. You know, I had to say this to somebody recently, but, you know, I think the thing you should get out of your education is learning how to learn and like you're talking about, essentially, how do you approach something new or challenging or different? Is has to do with essentially, how do you how do you know? Do you know how to grow and learn on your own?   Michael Hingson ** 42:44 Yeah, exactly, well, being an architect and so on. How did you end up going off and becoming a professor and and teaching? Yeah, a   David Mayernik ** 42:52 lot of architects do it. I have to say. I mean, there's always a lot of the people who are the kind of heroes when I was a student, were practicing architects who also taught and and they had a kind of, let's say, intellectual approach to what they did. They were conceptual. It wasn't just the mundane aspects of getting a building built, but they had some sense of where they fit, with respect to the culture, with respect to history and issues outside of architecture, the extent to which they were tied into other aspects of culture. And so I always had the idea that, you know, to be a full, you know, a fully, you know, engaged architect. You should have an academic, intellectual side to your life. And teaching would be an opportunity to do that. The only thing is, I didn't feel like I knew enough until I was older, in my 40s, to feel like I actually knew enough about what I was doing to be able to teach somebody else. A lot of architects get into teaching early, I think, before they're actually fully formed to have their own identities. And I think it's been good for me that I waited a while until I had a sense of myself before I felt like I could teach somebody else. And so there was, there was that, I mean, the other side of it, and it's not to say that it was just a day job, but one of the things I decided from the point of your practice is a lot of architects have to do a lot of work that they're not proud of to keep the lights on and keep the business operating. And I have decided for myself, I only really want to do work that I'm proud of, and in order to do that, because clients that you can work for and be you know feel proud of, are rather rare, and so I balanced teaching and practice, because teaching allowed me to ostensibly, theoretically be involved with the life of the mind and only work for people and projects that interested me and that I thought could offer me the chance to do something good and interesting and important. And so one I had the sense that I had something to convey I learned. Enough that I felt like I could teach somebody else. But it was also, for me, an opportunity to have a kind of a balanced life in which practice was compensated. You know that a lot of practice, even interesting practice, has a banal, you know, mundane side. And I like being intellectually stimulated, so I wanted that. Not everybody wants   Michael Hingson ** 45:24 that. Yeah, so you think that the teaching brings you that, or it put you in a position where you needed to deal with that?   David Mayernik ** 45:32 You know, having just retired, I wish there had been more of that. I really had this romantic idea that academics, being involved in academics, would be an opportunity to live in a world of ideas. You know? I mean, because when I was a student, I have to say we, after we came back from Rome, I got at least half of my education for my classmates, because we were deeply engaged. We debated stuff. We, you know, we we challenged each other. We were competitive in a healthy way and and I remember academics my the best part of my academic formation is being immensely intellectually rich. In fact, I really missed it. For about the first five years I was out of college, I really missed the intellectual side of architecture, and I thought going back as a teacher, I would reconnect with that, and I realized not necessarily, there's a lot about academics that's just as mundane and bureaucratic as practice can be so if you really want to have a satisfying intellectual life, unfortunately, you can't look to any institution or other people for it. You got to find it on your own.   46:51 Paperwork, paperwork,   David Mayernik ** 46:55 committee meetings, just stuff. Yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 yeah. Yeah, which never, which never. Well, I won't say they never help, but there's probably, there's probably some valuable stuff that you can get, even from writing and doing, doing paperwork, because it helps you learn to write. I suppose you can look at it that way.   David Mayernik ** 47:16 No, it's true. I mean, you're, you're definitely a glass half full guy. Michael, I appreciate that's good. No. I mean, I, obviously, I always try to make get the most out of whatever experience I have. But, I mean, in the sense that there wasn't as much intellectual discourse, yeah, you know, as my I would have liked, yeah, and I, you know, in the practice or in the more academic side of architecture. Several years ago, somebody said we were in a post critical phase like that. Ideas weren't really what was driving architecture. It was going to be driven by issues of sustainability, issues of social structure, you know, essentially how people live together, issues that have to do with things that weren't really about, let's call it design in the esthetic sense, and all that stuff is super important. And I'm super interested in, you know, the social impact of my architecture, the sustainable impact of it, but the the kind of intellectual society side of the design part of it, we're in a weird phase where it that's just not in my world, we just it's not talked about a lot. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 48:33 it's not what it what it used to be. Something tells me you may be retired, but you're not going to stop searching for intellectual and various kinds of stimulation to help keep your mind active.   David Mayernik ** 48:47 Oh, gosh, no, no. I mean, effectively. I mean, I just stopped one particular job. I describe it now as quitting with benefits. That's my idea of what I retired from. I retired from a particular position in a particular place, but, but I haven't stopped. I mean, I'm certainly going to keep working. I have a very interesting design project in Switzerland. I've been working on for almost 29 years, and it's got a number of years left in it. I paint, I write, I give lectures, I you know, and you obviously have a rich life. You know, not being at a job. Doesn't mean that the that your engagement with the world and with ideas goes away. I mean, unless you wanted to, my wife's my wife had three great uncles who were great jazz musicians. I mean, some quite well known jazz musicians. And one of them was asked, you know, was he ever going to retire? And he said, retire to what? Because, you know, he was a musician. I mean, you can't stop being a musician, you know, you know, if, some level, if you're really engaged with what you do, you You never stop, really,   Michael Hingson ** 49:51 if you enjoy it, why would you? No, I   David Mayernik ** 49:54 mean, the best thing is that your work is your fun. I mean, you know, talking about, we talked about it. I. You that You know you're kind of defined by your work, but if your work is really what you enjoy, I mean, actually it's fulfilling, rich, enriching, interesting, you don't want to stop doing that. I mean, essentially, you want to do it as long as you possibly can. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 and it's and it's really important to do that. And I think, in reality, when you retire from a job, you're not really retiring from a job. You're retiring, as you said, from one particular thing. But the job isn't a negative thing at all. It is what you like to do.   David Mayernik ** 50:31 Yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, there's the things that you do that. I mean, I guess the job is the, if you like, the thing that is the, you know, the institution or the entity that you know, pays your bills and that kind of stuff, but the career or the thing that you're invested in that had the way you define yourself is you never stop being that person, that person. And in some ways, you know, what I'm looking forward to is a richer opportunity to pursue my own avenue of inquiry, and, you know, do things on my own terms, without some of the obligations I had   Michael Hingson ** 51:03 as a teacher, and where's your wife and all that.   David Mayernik ** 51:06 So she's with me here in LUCA, and she's she's had a super interesting life, because she she she studied. We, when we were together in New York, she was getting a degree in art history, Medieval and Renaissance studies in art history at NYU, and then she decided she really wanted to be a chef, and she went to cooking school in New York and then worked in a variety of food businesses in New York, and then got into food writing and well, food styling for magazines, making food for photographs, and then eventually writing. And through a strange series of connections and experiences. She got an opportunity to cook at an Art Foundation in the south of France, and I was in New York, and I was freelancing. I was I'd quit a job I'd been at for five years, and I was freelancing around, doing some of my own stuff and working with other architects, and I had work I could take with me. And you know, it was there was there was, we didn't really have the internet so much, but we had FedEx. And I thought I could do drawings in the south of France. I could do them in Brooklyn. So, so I went to the south of France, and it just happens to be that my current client from Switzerland was there at that place at that time, scouting it out for some other purpose. And she said, I hear you're architect. I said, Yeah. And I said, Well, you know, she said, I like, you know, classical architecture, and I like, you know, traditional villages, and we have a campus, and we need a master plan architect. And I was doing a master plan back in Delaware at that time, and my wife's you know, career trajectory actually enabled me to meet a client who's basically given me an opportunity to build, you know, really interesting stuff, both in Switzerland and in England for the last, you know, again, almost 29 years. And so my wife's been a partner in this, and she's been, you know, because she's pursued her own parallel interest. But, but our interests overlap enough and we share enough that we our interests are kind of mutually reinforcing. It's, it's been like an ongoing conversation between us, which has been alive and rich and wonderful.   Michael Hingson ** 53:08 You know, with everything going on in architecture and in the world in general, we see more and more technology in various arenas and so on. How do you think that the whole concept of CAD has made a difference, or in any way affected architecture. And where do you think CAD systems really fit into all of that?   David Mayernik ** 53:33 Well, so I mean this, you know, CAD came along. I mean, it already was, even when I was early in my apprenticeship, yeah, I was in Chicago, and there was a big for som in Chicago, had one of the first, you know, big computers that was doing some drawing work for them. And one of my, a friend of mine, you know, went to spend some time and figure out what they were capable of. And, but, you know, never really came into my world until kind of the late night, mid, mid to late 90s and, and, and I kind of resisted it, because I, the reason I got into architecture is because I like to draw by hand, and CAD just seemed to be, you know, the last thing I'd want to do. But at the same time, you, some of you, can't avoid it. I mean, it has sort of taken over the profession that, essentially, you either have people doing it for you, or you have to do it yourself, and and so the interesting thing is, I guess that I, at some point with Switzerland, I had to, basically, I had people helping me and doing drawing for me, but I eventually taught myself. And I actually, I jumped over CAD and I went to a 3d software called ArchiCAD, which is a parametric design thing where you're essentially building a 3d model. Because I thought, Look, if I'm going to do drawing on the computer, I want the computer to do something more than just make lines, because I can make lines on my own. But so the computer now was able to help me build a 3d model understand buildings in space and construction. And so I've taught myself to be reasonably, you know, dangerous with ArchiCAD and but the. Same time, the creative side of it, I still, I still think, and a lot of people think, is still tied to the intuitive hand drawing aspect and and so a lot of schools that gave up on hand drawing have brought it back, at least in the early years of formation of architects only for the the conceptual side of architecture, the the part where you are doodling out your first ideas, because CAD drawing is essentially mechanical and methodical and sort of not really intuitive, whereas the intuitive marking of paper With a pencil is much more directly connected to the mind's capacity to kind of speculate and imagine and daydream a little bit, or wander a little bit your mind wanders, and it actually is time when some things can kind of emerge on the page that you didn't even intend. And so, you know, the other thing about the computer is now on my iPad, I can actually do hand drawing on my iPad, and that's allowed me to travel with it, show it to clients. And so I still obviously do a lot of drawing on paper. I paint by hand, obviously with real paints and real materials. But I also have found also I can do free hand drawing on my iPad. I think the real challenge now is artificial intelligence, which is not really about drawing, it's about somebody else or the machine doing the creative side of it. And that's the big existential crisis that I think the profession is facing right now.   Michael Hingson ** 56:36 Yeah, I think I agree with that. I've always understood that you could do free hand drawing with with CAD systems. And I know that when I couldn't find a job in the mid 1980s I formed a company, and we sold PC based CAD systems to architects and engineers. And you know, a number of them said, well, but when we do designs, we charge by the time that we put into drawing, and we can't do that with a CAD system, because it'll do it in a fraction of the time. And my response always was, you're looking at it all wrong. You don't change how much you charge a customer, but now you're not charging for your time, you're charging for your expertise, and you do the same thing. The architects who got that were pretty successful using CAD systems, and felt that it wasn't really stifling their creativity to use a CAD system to enhance and speed up what they did, because it also allowed them to find more jobs more quickly.   David Mayernik ** 57:35 Yeah, one of the things it did was actually allow smaller firms to compete with bigger firms, because you just didn't need as many bodies to produce a set of drawings to get a project built or to make a presentation. So I mean, it has at one level, and I think it still is a kind of a leveler of, in a way, the scale side of architecture, that a lot of small creative firms can actually compete for big projects and do them successfully. There's also, it's also facilitated collaboration, because of the ability to exchange files and have people in different offices, even around the world, working on the same drawing. So, you know, I'm working in Switzerland. You know, one of the reasons to be on CAD is that I'm, you know, sharing drawings with local architects there engineers, and that you know that that collaborative sharing process is definitely facilitated by the computer.   Michael Hingson ** 58:27 Yeah, information exchange is always valuable, especially if you have a number of people who are committed to the same thing. It really helps. Collaboration is always a good thing,   David Mayernik ** 58:39 yeah? I mean, I think a lot of, I mean, there's always the challenge between the ego side of architecture, you know, creative genius, genius, the Howard Roark Fountainhead, you know, romantic idea. And the reality is that it takes a lot of people to get a building built, and one person really can't do it by themselves. And So collaboration is kind of built into it at the same time, you know, for any kind of coherence, or some any kind of, let's say, anything, that brings a kind of an artistic integrity to a work of architecture, mostly, that's got to come from one person, or at least people with enough shared vision that that there's a kind of coherence to it, you know. And so there still is space for the individual creative person. It's just that it's inevitably a collaborative process to get, you know, it's the it's the 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Side architecture is very much that there's a lot of heavy lifting that goes into getting a set of drawings done to get

On this episode we get to meet Andra Wochesen, a teacher and then a coach. Andra received her college degree in kinesiology education. What is kinesiology, you may ask? Physical education. Andra will tell us more and how she progressed from years of teaching to coaching to help “entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact”. Andra focuses today on helping people understand themselves and their lives. She uses tools such as examining Akashic Records. We get to learn in detail what Andra does and how she accomplishes helping people gain insights into their existence and how to move forward.   I hope you find Andra's time with us informative and instructive.     About the Guest:   Andra supports entrepreneurs and leaders to be in their power and conviction, so they land on bigger stages, command higher fees and create meaningful impact. Purpose, Power & Presence.   Along with a 25 -year background in kinesiology and education, Andra is multi-certified as a coach, with enhanced training in energetic and embodiment techniques, including Law of Attraction, Reiki, Akashic Records, Tapping and Quantum Flow.   This unique combination of skills coupled with her intuitive and innate understanding of the body and energy and ability to uncover dormant soul gifts, allows her to support her clients in a deeply integrated way, creating lasting change and expedited results.   She has recently received a breast cancer diagnosis and is truly being asked to walk her talk as she faces the unexpected and a lot of unknowns. Part of her mission and purpose is to share her journey to support others, and though this is health related, how to apply this to any path people are currently walking. Ways to connect with Andra:   Website: https://www.andrawochesen.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andra-wochesen-purposepowerpresence/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andra_energycoach/# You-Tube: https://www.youtube.com/@andrawochesen To your listeners, here is a link for my Personal Power Activation Series https://andrawochesen.simplero.com/personalpoweractivation     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:28 We really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us or watch us and our guest Andra Wochesen who is going to talk to us about a variety of things, and one of the things that I will tell you is she has a degree in kinesiology, and she'll have to define that. I'm not going to, although I now know what it means and I know how to pronounce it, mostly because she told me. But I really am excited to have her be on the podcast today, because one of the things that I really enjoyed about and it's not necessarily the most enjoyable subject, but because of the things that she has done now in her life, she is facing personal tests to prove that what she teaches and coaches is real, because she's having to go through some of it, and I know that she will talk about that a little bit later. We'll get to it. But Andra, I want to thank you for being on a stoppable mindset.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:21 Thank you so much, Michael. I'm so happy to be here, and so love what you're about and how you show up in the world, and I'm so happy to be connected with like minded people making an impact, and happy to be connected to your audience. And I hope something I share today will be of service.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Well, I hope so, and I think that, we usually find that it is and we're we're really glad you're here to share it, which is as good as it gets. So I'd like to start by maybe learning about the early Andra growing up and so on. Why don't you tell us about some of that and kind of how that led you to maybe some of the things that you're doing now? Sure, sure.   Andra Wochesen ** 02:58 Yeah. I mean, yes, I'm the end places that I'm a coach, and I work with embodiment and energy. And I think the first years of my life were me being a very active child, being very adventurous, loving to have new experiences, very much being athletic. I was a competitive gymnast in my younger years. And yeah, I think I really enjoyed being in my body and using my body as a vehicle to sort of express myself. So, definitely active, definitely adventurous, definitely independent. And yeah, really enjoyed the experience of, yeah, going new places, seeing new people, and doing some things that challenge my body in big ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 So what made you deviate from going into competitive gymnastics?   Andra Wochesen ** 03:51 Oh, I wasn't good enough. Oh, okay, yeah, I was good enough for where I was, but yeah, it was enough. I think, yeah, I think I stopped that around 11 or 12. Actually, it's quite a it's quite a vigorous sport. And yeah, I was quite aware of my capacity and my desire, actually, to, it takes a lot to get to that, to the caliber of like, Olympic athlete or something, right? So that wasn't, I wasn't good enough, and I didn't have, didn't desire to go down that path   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 well. And that's, of course, a significant part of it is there's a lot that you have to desire to do to really go down that path in whatever sport or whatever you want to compete in and be about. So I understand,   Andra Wochesen ** 04:35 yeah, yeah, yeah, that commitment and choice and yeah, I think, as you speak, about unstoppable, right? There is an element that requires so much conviction on our end to be able to really commit and follow through with whatever it is that we are wanting to follow through and commit with.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Well, so you say, around 11 or 12, you decided. That you weren't going to continue down that. What did you   Andra Wochesen ** 05:04 do? Oh, I mean, I continued to still be athletic and still played. I still did gymnastics. I was, you know, still quite good at it, so I did that through high school, but played a variety of other team sports. And I think, yeah, maybe define myself less on the athleticism, but still included it, and sort of brought in more of some other interests. I think that I had maybe more around, yeah, just travel friends. I mean, that's what you do in high school and university.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 So where did you go to university? I   Andra Wochesen ** 05:39 went. I'm in Canada. So I went to McMaster, yeah, which is in Hamilton. It's a great school. Now, where is that? That's in Hamilton, which is I live in Toronto now. So Hamilton is about 45 minutes away. Hamilton is between, let's say, Toronto, Niagara Falls, the main cities, you would know. So, yeah, I went to McMaster for four years for my phys ed kinese degree, and then I went to Queen's University for my teaching degree. So that's sort of my educational background.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 So you you got a teaching degree, did you want to go off and be a teacher? Or what did you want to do exactly? Or did you know   Andra Wochesen ** 06:15 I was a teacher? I did very strategically choose in my growing up, I think being athletic, I also coached teams. I also was a camp counselor, so I was very much involved in guiding other people. So I think especially in athletic pursuits, and even I mentioned this, even I did volunteer at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and was a runner for someone there, helped them run track. So I think going into teaching, and especially phys ed teaching, made perfect sense. So I did. I did do that for 10 years, and then moved on to some other things.   Michael Hingson ** 06:56 So how long ago was it that you were a runner at CNIB, that   Andra Wochesen ** 07:01 was a long time ago. That was like, 30 years ago. Yeah, yes, that was like, sort of in my, I don't know, maybe early 20s, something like that. Okay, tell,   Michael Hingson ** 07:11 tell us a little bit more about how that. I'm just curious how that process worked. So you, you worked at the you volunteered at the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and you and so people wanted to run. And how did, how did you make that work?   Andra Wochesen ** 07:26 So I was a guide runner. So I think I did a very, very I work with different people. There various people. And I think one, one of the young men really wanted to run track, and they had a big event at, I believe, was Variety Village, I believe. And so it was he wanted to do, I think it was 400 meters again, excuse me, it's been a long time. So it was a run. And so, yeah, to be able, I was a guide runner, so I ran, held his hands, but he obviously did the work and ran. But I was there as a as a runner to support that.   Michael Hingson ** 08:00 But you had to be able to run fast enough to keep up with whatever speed he was in produce, yeah, for   Andra Wochesen ** 08:05 sure, absolutely, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:09 yeah. I know people in the United States who are blind runners and do work with with people to guide. And of course, that's the whole point. But obviously, the the guides have to be in good enough physical shape also to make sure that they're able to let the person run at their own pace and hopefully set world records. I don't know who has but you know, nevertheless,   Andra Wochesen ** 08:35 yes, to let them have their full self expression right of what they were wanting to do, and your eye was just there on the side to make sure that he was able to run as fast as and get where he wanted to go and achieve the results he wanted to achieve.   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 Could when you were when you were acting as a guide. How did that work? That is to say, I'm assuming that the person couldn't necessarily run totally on their own. How did, how did you keep people running straight or where they needed to go again?   Andra Wochesen ** 09:09 It's a long time. I believe it was just hands right, and my hands in front, so that, or maybe at the side right, just so that there was a hand. There was a tactile component. It wasn't voice. It was definitely cut, so it was just more like guiding, to make sure that he was able to stay no well, he knew when to start, but to stay within the lines to be able to follow the track, and then obviously, to be able to cross the finish line.   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 Yeah, because they, they didn't have ropes or anything between lanes that he could follow. So he needed a person, or she, depending on who you guided, they needed your assistance. Because the bottom line is that the the tracks don't have ropes or anything like that to divide the various lanes. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 09:54 yes, yeah. So it was, there may be different things. Now, you know, I'm not sure, but I'm   Michael Hingson ** 09:59 aware that there are. But I'm not a runner, so   Andra Wochesen ** 10:01 yeah, yeah. So it's a very Yeah. It's a very Yeah. I've been involved in that sort of stuff, whether it's been volunteer or paid in my whole life, basically helping other people to sort of reach their goals and to fully self Express. And so I think that's, you know, definitely been a piece of what's led me to the work that I do today. Mm, hmm.   Michael Hingson ** 10:27 So, so you taught, where did you teach? For 10 years,   Andra Wochesen ** 10:32 I taught mainly. I taught in middle schools. I was, yeah, thanks. So I taught grade seven and eight. Mostly grade seven, little bit of grade six. I last year I taught grade four. I taught phys ed. The whole time I was like the the head of phys ed, so I coached all the teams and organized the track meets and did things like that. But I also had an under second teachable of French. So I actually taught French as well as math and English. You know, those weren't my favorite, but I Oh, yeah, I did love teaching, yeah, phys ed and health health, actually, I loved because that's very much like, it's kind of like coaching, right? It's actually helping, yeah, I love those, those classes as well, with that age group.   Michael Hingson ** 11:16 Now, my wife, my late wife, was a teacher for 10 years, and she always said that the students she liked best were third graders, because they were old enough that they could make some decisions, but they were also young enough that they were able to be influenced, and they hadn't got so set in their ways that they were problem students like even from fourth grade on, did you have a favorite grade?   Andra Wochesen ** 11:43 Yeah, not grade seven. That's why I'm not doing it.   Michael Hingson ** 11:46 So I would agree with you,   Andra Wochesen ** 11:49 yeah, so that was the bulk of my teaching career was grade seven. So they're not easy, and they don't necessarily want to be there. So yeah, it didn't feel like the most aligned path. I was actually certified to teach high school, but it was very hard to get into high school teaching here. And I think if I would have, I probably would still be doing that, because it's a little bit more pure in the phys ed component. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 well, the you know, I wanted to be a teacher, and ended up going in different directions anyway, but still, I think that I do get to teach. And I think even this podcast offers teaching moments which is, which is pretty good, but I appreciate what you and Karen, my wife, say about all of that, because it is a it is a big challenge. Do you think that one of her comments and was that parents aren't really becoming as involved as they should be, and so they they kind of treat teachers like babysitters, and then the kids go home and they do whatever they're going to do, but they don't really as actively provide a lot of the guidance that they should. Did you find that up in Canada as well?   Andra Wochesen ** 13:05 I would say again, it's been 20 years now. Say that for the most part, it just really depends. Like, a lot of parents were very engaged and very and then I think, yeah, there were kids that were challenging at school because they didn't have a lot of structure or support at home. So it's a, it's a, it's a, really a. It's a privilege to be a teacher, to be taking, not necessarily taking care of people's children, but you are, on some level, being an influence for them. And so yeah, I would say for the most part, there was a lot of parental support, but I know that's not always the case, and I do think, yeah, there's some kids who had not very much parental support and required more at school.   Michael Hingson ** 13:52 Karen had challenges with a lot of kids until she realized something, and I don't even remember what caused it to happen, but she taught at a school where, as she put it, there were a lot of latch key kids. That is, they they were really responsible for themselves. The parents worked and so on. They went. The kids went home at the end of the day, and they were on their own. And when she realized that kids weren't going home necessarily to total parental supervision and so on, and that they in fact, the children were learning how to be responsible to a large degree on their own. That kind of changed her view and the way she interacted with kids, and apparently became a whole lot more effective and a whole lot more of a teacher who could exert a positive influence on the kids.   Andra Wochesen ** 14:46 That's great. I mean, I think ultimately, we're all sovereign beings, even if we're children. And I think, yeah, whatever situations we are, sort of handed Yeah, I think there's a lot of. Um growth in that, and I think being able to support that is what we're what we're here to do, whether we're a formal teacher or a guide or a podcast host, right? We're all here to sort of meet people where they're at and also in their greatness and also in their challenges, and then also in their capacity.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 People are where they are, and we don't really have the right, much less all of the gifts to necessarily force people to change how they behave and so on. And I think the best that we can do is to try to set positive examples and and either people will see that, or kids will see that, or they won't.   Andra Wochesen ** 15:43 Yeah, one of the biggest things, and you know, it's part of the work I do now around seeing people's gifts. That's part of the akashics work that I do. But I know, even as a teacher, one of the greatest strengths that supported me was that I chose to focus on the strengths in the children and really reflect that to them, and have them see that within themselves. And everybody has different approaches. Some people would be focused on, like, you need to improve here. This needs to happen. And of course, I think we all have areas of growth and improvement, but I believe, and I've seen, I've literally been in this field for 30 years, whether it's teaching, you know, young people or adults, we I have found that most people thrive when they're recognized in their greatness and their gifts, not in their areas of weakness. How do you do that? How do I do that? So, I mean, I think I did it innately. When I was a teacher, I just intuited that that was the it's easy. We can all see people's gifts, and we can all choose to focus on those gifts. We can do that in our personal relationships. We can choose. We always get choice in terms of what we focus on. So I believe that there's we all have that innate ability, whether we exercise it or not, is is up to us. And then I have, you know, certified in some different modalities that help me help people uncover what some of those gifts are. I originally did something called the Passion Test, where I help people really distill what their true passions were. And so that's a really, really helpful tool. And then I also do Akashic Records, which is like a an energetic database, which we can talk about further if you want or not. Doesn't matter, but it's, it's a I'm able to access people's records for them and really discern what their top level gifts are, and then share that with them. And so when I'm sharing it with them, it's not usually like they have no idea they most people know what their innate gifts are, but when it's reflected in a certain way from a soul level perspective, it's a very validating experience, and it helps to reignite those gifts in people, so that they are then very self aware of what those gifts are and how they can use them to both impact their themselves and their career and their family, right? There's there's lots of ways to apply our gifts if we really tune in to what they are,   Michael Hingson ** 18:18 whether it's children or adults, there's always a lot to be said for the whole concept of validation. If you are really validating someone, especially when you're dealing with their gifts and you're validating them, you're praising them, you're encouraging them for what they are and what they do, that has to count for a lot. I would think.   Andra Wochesen ** 18:38 I think so. I think you're speaking to a deeper level than the ego or the mind. You're actually speaking to the depth of some who someone is, and they feel that. And there's a, there's a, I'm going to say, like an embodied response to that. There's a deep feeling.   Michael Hingson ** 18:56 Well, so you taught for 10 years, and then what, what made you decide to deviate from just being a professional teacher in the classroom, as it were, or or going around the field, running,   Andra Wochesen ** 19:08 yes, chair, yeah, I felt like actually had a bit of a rough I'm not, I don't need to get into that. But it was, I had a tough year about year seven or eight, and it just kind of flipped the dial for me in terms of, I'm not sure this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. So I did stick it out for a couple more years. It's a lot of education and a lot of experience that I was working with, and so I did try some different things, taught different grades, but ultimately I realized that it wasn't, it was a little soul sucking for me, and in some ways, and I knew that there was more or a better way for me to actually use the gifts that I have. And so I just, I chose to to leave, which is not that common. I know it's a little different. Different in the US in terms of teaching and salaries and things like that. In Canada, I would say it's a very, it's a very good profession to be in. It's a very, it's a good salary. It's so it wasn't easy to leave it, but my higher knowing knew that it was the right thing for me to do.   Michael Hingson ** 20:20 So what did you then go do?   Andra Wochesen ** 20:23 So then I went, I became a Pilates instructor, and so that is movement education. And so I got to use my phys ed background and my kinesiology background to work with bodies. And I also trained the new teachers. Because, yeah, I had an expertise in teaching, and so I was a trainer of teachers. So yeah, I was involved in certifying new teachers. So yeah, did that, and then I worked one on one with clients, which was a really nice change for me, coming from a classroom of 30 people, being able to work with people in a one on one capacity and just have that so that felt very Yeah, it felt very aligned for me to be able to have a one on one connection and to be able to serve people really deeply, and yeah, I didn't have to mark tests and all that kind of stuff, right?   Michael Hingson ** 21:19 There's something to be said for that, yes, for sure, and you didn't have to make out report cards at the end of the year. Yes, yes, yeah. There's a   Andra Wochesen ** 21:27 lot of work that goes in there. You know, people talk a lot about summers off, but there's a lot of stuff that happens that is quite, quite labor intensive in teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 21:37 My niece is a kindergarten teacher. Actually, this year she's teaching pre kindergarten, but she would definitely agree with you, and talks about all the things that they have to do during the summer and all the preparation and and more important nowadays, at least down here, the amount of money that she has to spend out of her own salary just to buy supplies that the school district, for whatever reason, doesn't have funding to provide, and the teachers spend a fair amount of money keeping their students engaged with the things that they have to buy, that they know that the students need, but that the district doesn't provide.   Andra Wochesen ** 22:17 Yeah, I mean, I think that just, I can't speak obviously, to your country and how you do things, or what, what the what's involved. But I think it speaks to the desire that I'm going to say, all people have to support others. But I think teachers specifically, not even specifically, but teachers do have a big passion for helping people. And so I think that just speaks to the level that they're willing to go to in order to really support the next generation. So I think there is such a there's such a gift in and I hope that more and more people will appreciate teachers, because I think it's they are very vital, I think in shaping lots of things so well.   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 I think to at least a degree, most people like to teach that is to say they, if somebody asks them a question, Will will take the time oftentimes, to answer. They'll explain why they do what they do, or they'll explain whatever the question is about. I know, when I was in professional sales and managing a sales force, one of the things that I told every person that I hired was, for the next year, at least, you're a student, don't hesitate to ask questions, because the people who are your customers and your clients, if you're asking good, intelligent questions of them, they will want to answer you and engage you, and that can only help you. And what it what you do further down the line with them as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 23:52 Yeah, I think, I believe that we're all here to light the path for those behind us in whatever way we choose to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 24:01 Yeah. Yeah. And it is a, it is an art to do it well. And not everybody is a great teacher, but I think a lot of people do like to import, impart knowledge, at least to some degree, which is great, sure. Yeah. So you are Pilates instructor for a while, and then what did you do? Well?   Andra Wochesen ** 24:19 Then I Yeah, again, my soul always wants to expand, and I think that I felt like it was good, but it wasn't the full use of my gifts. And so that's when I sort of went down the coaching path. I realized I liked the one on one connection. I realized I'm very intuitive in general, but very intuitive with the body. So when I was working with my Pilates clients, I was able to almost tune into sort of, I'm going to say, even emotional blocks. Or I could tune into why their bodies weren't functioning the way they wanted to function. And so it just naturally evolved into desiring to bring a coaching element into the work that I did. And so for a number of years, I did both. Growth, and then after about 15 years of being at the teaching Pilates, I decided to just transition full time to coaching. So that's what I've been doing for the last, I don't know, five or six years full time   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 well, so tell us more about that. What you do, and I know you've talked and referred to a few times the Akashic records and so on. So don't hesitate to talk about some of that as well.   Andra Wochesen ** 25:26 Yeah, I think really what I do is help people connect to their innate power and their innate presence, so that they and their deepest gifts. So those are probably the deepest things. Purpose, power, presence is sort of how I label it, and within that, it's their sole gifts, what they're here to do, what their purpose is, what they want to really contribute on the planet. That's really who I'm helping so often it's entrepreneurs, sometimes it's leaders, sometimes it's high profile people in their industry, and so really I'm helping them connect to the depth of who they are really so that they can express that in the work that they do. So for some people, yeah, it's a it's about creating a bigger presence, a bigger platform, creating more impact, getting in front of more audiences, being able to command higher fees. All of this comes from a deep connection to your own knowing of who you are and what you how you're designed to serve. And so I really that's the it's the crux of what I do is you can hopefully see the thread throughout my whole life is really around helping people connect to who they really are at their core, how, what their innate gifts are, how they want to share those gifts, and how they can use those gifts to not only create a better, more aligned or whatever, what's what I want to say, prosperous life Experience for themselves through I love working with people who want to do what they love, right? That's really people who are trailblazers, people who want to create a new path, people who want to create meaning, want to create impact. And that's it's a I love it, and it's not an easy path. And so I really help people break through anything, holding them back from really going for it, because so many people that I work with, we are blazing new paths. Right? You do have to sell yourself. You do have to make your own opportunities. You do have to create your own platform. You have to do that in your podcast, right? There's everybody is we are here to do, I think this is what we are all here to do, is to really share our gifts in the biggest way possible. And yeah, sometimes people need help to be able to show that fully and to be able to shine as brightly as they're designed to to shine so that they can, yeah, receive Yeah, bigger opportunities, bigger platforms, more ability to continue on the path that they're on.   Michael Hingson ** 28:03 Do you find that there are a number of people who don't really know where they want to go or what they want to do? They're they're kind of being a little bit more aimless than they really need to be.   Andra Wochesen ** 28:17 It's interesting. I'm sure there are. When I first started, I was more of a life purpose coach, so I did, did sort of interact with people who are kind of lost and maybe a bit directionless. And so I think absolutely there, I don't even like that word that sounds very judgmental, right, just unsure of what they want to do. And so I think absolutely there are lots of people, and what I believe, and what I see now is that people wouldn't, who come to me wouldn't say that they're lost, but they something's not quite working, or they are ready for a next iteration. I believe we're always expanding and evolving, and so is our purpose and our direction, right? And so and sometimes we're going down a path and it works out really well, and we expand it. And sometimes we're going down a path and it doesn't work out so well, or we get a roadblock, as you know, I have one right now that kind of comes into our experience, and it causes us to course correct. So I feel like there's a lot of course correction next iteration. And to me, I use the words always elevation and expansion, because I think we are designed to continually evolve and expand. And so I think it's yeah, there's, there's all levels of people on the spectrum in terms of, like, knowing what I'm going to do with my life, or how I want to share in the world   Michael Hingson ** 29:30 well. And there's nothing wrong with the whole concept of life is all about expanding and exploring.   Andra Wochesen ** 29:39 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 there's, there's nothing wrong with that, and also developing an ongoing strong desire to learn. The people that I find the most challenging to deal with are the ones who decide they know it all and they don't have any. Thing to learn, because they probably have the most to learn.   Andra Wochesen ** 30:03 Of course, of course, yeah, there's such a gift in the openness to Yeah. I'm using the word evolve, but learn, expand, grow, all of it's the same, right? It's like, there's, there's, yeah. It's, for me, it's one of my biggest values. And I think, I think there are a lot of people who prioritize growth, and then there are other people who don't. So it's choice, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 30:31 oh, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. Tell me more about the whole concept of the Akashic records. Oh,   Andra Wochesen ** 30:37 sure, sure, yeah, of course. Yeah. So I told you we'd bring it up. Yeah. So the Akashic records are an energetic database of our soul level information, and so it's like we all have akashics, and it's, it's our soul level information we can all access, and you may even access this information yourself in a meditation, or you receive some guidance on something, but you may be actually in your Akashic records. And so our cash checks sort of have our lifetimes of like lessons of opportunities for growth. Our gifts are it's like it's literally a soul level database of information. And so you can access, we can each access our own, but I am certified to go into people's akashics with their permission, on their behalf, and sort of retrieve relevant information to support them on their life's journey. So that's really, yeah. How do you do that? Well, it's a, yeah, it's quite it's a step by step. I mean, it's a certification. So I'm really tuning in. So there's a whole series of I'm going to say, questions that I ask, and first I get someone's birth date, full name, full name, full current name, full name at birth, date of birth, place of birth, so that's really key, so that I am accessing the right soul. And then there are a series of questions that I ask to determine whether the soul wants me to access this information. And then, yeah, most of the time, I'm kind of going in with very specific questions around soul gifts. But sometimes people come to me with very specific questions, but usually it's some version of like, what's keeping me stuck or I want to get here, or how can I use my gifts in a better way? Or is this a i can even do Akashic records for businesses? So Right? Which is the most aligned business opportunity, which is the most best way to market? What I do? Right? We we have different gifts ourselves. So again, just for me, I am not designed to market, but I'm very good for people to experience me. So I I'm good when I'm on a video, or if I lead a workshop, or if I have a conversation with someone, so when people have an experience, or if they read a Client Testimonial, so that's for me, the way my soul is designed to market. Your soul might not be designed that way at all, right? And so it's really good to have we can get all of this information that actually helps us be more aligned, more successful, more prosperous, right? We can actually be like we have a blueprint. We actually have a soul blueprint that will help us do the best that we possibly can in this lifetime. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 33:31 hmm. How did you learn to do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 33:35 I mean, it was a certification process. So it was a called Soul realignment. That's where I learned, and it was a numerous, numerous courses, numerous practice clients, like any, like, all of my coaching certification, right? There's, um, yeah, there's a lot of people call them, and it's all fine. Everybody can do a lot of people will call themselves a coach, but, and people can be good coaches, but there's actually coach training that people go through. And there's hundreds and hundreds of practice client hours where you actually are learning sort of in the field, just as I did as a teacher. So yeah, it's just another one of the I'm going to say pieces that I bring to my coaching. So I just sort of integrate this all into my sessions with clients.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Got it. So there are places where you actually take these courses, or how does that work? I   Andra Wochesen ** 34:27 have done all of my training online, okay, all of it online from all over the world, actually. Yeah, that's the beauty of the internet, right? It's, it's yeah. I've done, yeah, I've done all of my practice and some stuff in person, for sure, I've done some stuff in person, but I've done a lot of, even all of my coaching. Now, I do a few in person retreats, but most of it is virtual. Most of it is zoom coaching. And I didn't know if I would like it, but I do. It's you can actually form quite a nice connection with people via the internet, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Do you. You're able to to establish as good a connection, doing it through the internet as you would, and as you do, if you're actually conducting an in person event,   Andra Wochesen ** 35:11 you know, yes, I'd say in some ways more so, and then in some ways less so. So I think there are, there are in person, there's, there's something really beautiful in being in someone else's energy, me being in theirs, and they're being in mine, and very also hands. My hands are very, very hands on. So that can be very helpful to have that presence. But I also find online, there can be a spaciousness that actually allows people almost to open up more, because they actually have their own space. So I have, yeah, I've been doing both for years, and I enjoy both. I'm going to say that, and I don't not just about me enjoying it. The benefits for my clients are both in person and virtual, or I would say equal   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 when the pandemic began and we started doing so many things virtually, for me, personally, I never feared it, because we even in an in person environment. I'm not, I don't how do I say this in a positive way? I look at the person, I see the person, but the way I see the person is not physically, necessarily, with the eyes, in in any different way, virtually than I would if I'm doing this in person, and I find that I'm able to interact with people well through zoom. I think Zoom is the more most accessible of the various conferencing technologies is out there, but I think that if you work at it, you can establish a good relationship through zoom, and you can do the kinds of work that you need to do. Unfortunately, too many people talk about it in such a way that they fear it, or they just become tired of doing things in a way that's different than what they're used to, which is totally in person, and that's detracting them from maybe having as positive an experience as they could   Andra Wochesen ** 37:21 Yeah, I agree that's well said, and I think, I think it's always about presence. And so when, yeah, when we're connecting on the internet, it's not, it's a machine or it's, it's whatever it is, right? But it's you showing up fully, making eye contact with people, not being distracted, being fully present, which is what actually allows people to feel seen and feel heard, and I think that it also allows you to be accessing people and opportunities all over the world, right? And so I will even say, when I first started doing this, there was a lot of people, especially when I started doing working more with entrepreneurs, they're like, I'm busy. I don't really have time to, like, drive across the city and come to your office and meet with you. You know, can we do this? And so it actually is very time efficient, right? You don't have to travel you. You are able to fit lots of things into your day, right? So I think there's, there's real benefits to it. And I think again, it's ultimately how present people are a computer or in person.   Michael Hingson ** 38:37 It's, it's all about, in part, accepting a different way of doing things, perhaps than you're used to, and accepting that it may not be any less equal to do it in a different way than the way you would normally do something. That is to say, is it really worse? Is it really different to do it virtually? Or can it really be just as much an equivalent kind of thing? And I think that that is mostly a matter of what we're what we choose to accept. Now, for me, there are challenges with things like doing virtual presentations with Zoom, if people don't communicate in a way that I can fully understand, or if they're sharing screens and don't describe what's on the screen. But the reality is that's just as true if I'm sitting in an in person environment and people are displaying slides and doing other things where they don't describe it. So it comes down to the same thing you can accomplish if you do it right.   Andra Wochesen ** 39:47 Yeah, and I think it comes down like what we said before, what where your focus is? Are you focusing on the gifts of something or the negative areas? Just like we were talking about kids gifts. In school, right? So it's like, if you can see what are the benefits to this virtual experience, if your focus is there, every you know what we focus on expands and where we direct our our focus is what informs how we feel. And so I think if we are choosing to look for the benefits of whatever we are, whatever situation we're in, you'll find them right. And the more you focus on them, the more they'll expand right   Michael Hingson ** 40:28 well. So you referred a couple of times, and I did at the very beginning a little bit to, I think, as you put it, you've had some things that have challenged your path and that you've had to work through, especially as late. Want to talk about some of that.   Andra Wochesen ** 40:44 Yeah. I mean, I yeah, I had to wait until I was ready to share this piece. But I feel like part of my mission and purpose is to support, is to share my journey to support other people. And so I think there's my journey as an entrepreneur that supports people, and this is now a journey with breast cancer, and so it's a health journey that I didn't expect to be sharing with people, and I have had to, obviously decide when and how I want to share it. So, yeah, I was diagnosed in early February and so, and I have yet to have treatment. So I think the reason I thought it was important to even share this is for people even to be able to relate to anything that they receive. So I'm calling it like how to navigate a difficult diagnosis with grace. So I'm not even at the treatment stage. I'm in the unknown, and I've been in the unknown for three months now, and I have been in the known that I have cancer, so I've actually had to hold the fact that I have cancer in my body, but not have any treatment yet for three months. So there's there's something in that being able to hold the unknown and the unexpected and be able to walk my talk, right, which is to maintain my center and my groundedness within myself and not get pulled into a freak out place of like, why aren't they acting faster? Why is this taking so long? And this, is this going to be spreading because they're not doing anything? So I think there's a there's the piece around that that I think I wanted to offer and share, I think, and I think, um, yeah, it's it. What I really realized for myself is, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to be the person who really navigates this was with grace, and I'm going to be inspirational in this. And then I really realized, and then there were days where I was like, Oh, I'm the opposite of inspirational right now. I am like, grumpy, I'm crying, I'm mad, and I'm like, and then I kind of realized that actually that is inspirational, and that is handling a difficult diagnosis. And so one of the things I do teach people is really to feel what is there and to actually tune into your body. And so I think this journey has actually, and it's just beginning, right? It's not, I'm not even meeting with a surgeon tomorrow for hopefully next steps, but I've had four biopsies, I've had a lot of things. I've had a lot of invasive procedures to determine what next steps are. And so, yeah, and so it's just finding this balance, I think, between continuing. So today, it's like, I have a client. This morning, I had another call, and then now I'm on a podcast, and then tomorrow I'm seeing the surgeon, right? So it's, it's being able to and then my husband's actually going for surgery the next day. So it's being able to navigate all of these things at once. And yeah, on some level, I want to just say, like allowing I'm really just allowing myself to be where I am, and some days I am great, and doing a podcast and coaching clients, because that fills me up. And then there are other days where I'm so angry and I'm so sad and there's some fear, and so it's and then so I feel like those two pieces, it's like allowing the hard pieces to be there, and then also having a knowing that there's a higher path and purpose for this. I don't know exactly. I already know I'm growing and expanding because of this, and I know there will be more. And then I think just the third piece I want to share is that my intuition has always been strong, but it's non negotiable now. And so I again, I'm just offering this for your listeners, right? Just tuning into how to tune into your own inner voice in terms of, what do I need right now? What treatment do I want to pursue? There's a lot of different pieces, and there are a lot of different voices that can be out there, but really the power of having this deep connection to yourself. Truth and trusting yourself to or God or spirit or source, however you want to see it, to help guide the process.   Michael Hingson ** 45:08 When you say your intuition is non negotiable, what do you mean by that?   Andra Wochesen ** 45:13 Listening to my intuitions for that would have been better way to say it. Listening to my intuition is non negotiable. So I will Intuit, if I'm able to work today, I will Intuit I've been intuiting that my body just wants citrus right now, and I'm just, I'm just giving it that, and I have actually learned that that's actually really helpful for cancer cells. So this is me intuiting this long before I heard this information. So it's tuning in and hearing this information and then acting on it. And so, yeah, I think it's it's just we all have intuition, and I think in times like this, we have to get still and get quiet and make sure that we're listening to the inner guidance that we are receiving.   Michael Hingson ** 46:01 So you say you got diagnosed in February, so it's been two months going on three. Why is it taking so long? Maybe it's not, but why is it taking so long to get treatment? Or is this typical?   Andra Wochesen ** 46:16 I don't like, I don't think there is typical. So that's one thing I would say. And I think this surgeon just wants to be very thorough. So for me personally, I mean, this is maybe too much information, but I have dense breasts, so it's very hard for him to see. He doesn't want to just go in. There is cancer there, but he needed to do other biopsies and do other testing, other MRIs to see if there was more so that he doesn't have to operate cut once or whatever they say, Right? He's like, he wants to go in and do take care of everything that needs to be taken care of, right? And so he's doing his due diligence. And so that just takes some time, right? Takes time to get in for appointments. It takes time to get results for appointments.   Michael Hingson ** 47:04 It's a it's a process. I know I can relate to, to what you're saying. I had over the past few years, and it was growing worse pain, especially in my left arm, and I finally talked to my doctor about it. I was going in to just have some standard blood draws and a couple of vaccinations in December. And I mentioned to the doctor this was going on. And I said, What do we do to try to figure this out? And he said, Well, put a couple other blood tests in just to see what, what might show up. And I find that my doctor is as a pretty bright guy, and so he didn't really go into much detail, other than we'll do blood tests and see, well, turns out that one of the blood tests that he ordered was for a heart enzyme called troponin that is produced by the heart when it's not behaving properly. And so on December 23 I learned that my troponin level was at 1100 92 when normally it should be between zero and 20. And I was taken off to an emergency room. We were actually still at the clinic getting vaccinations. When they had done the blood draws and they stat they just did them right away. They did the tests and got the results anyway. The problem was that when they when they did the tests and the blood tests, it took a day, even though they took me right to an emergency room and I sat there for a day, literally before they did an angiogram and a an echocardiogram to determine that there was a bad heart valve, and then nobody did anything with the information. And what so what they should have done was to have me sign forms to send them to my doctor, or given me copies of the CDs with the images to take to the doctor. And nobody talked about doing any of that, and nobody did any of that, and literally, it was like over a month before the doctor even got the information. And nobody seemed to be worried about it in the doctor's environment, which was at the clinic where I had all my other stuff done, or at the bigger hospital related to it. And it was just very strange, and then when they finally did get the information, even then there wasn't a lot of urgency. And for me, it wasn't a matter of being so much angry as puzzlement about why there wasn't a more of an emergency. You got a bad heart valve. It could stop anytime, right? Anyway, it. Took three months before they finally did do an operation and put in an artificial valve. So that was done in March of this year. So it was basically three months after the the initial diagnosis, and now everything is fine, but it is. I know that for me, what I chose to do was not panic. I chose not to be stressed. So during the time I was in the emergency room for that day, I found lots of ways to be entertained by listening to other people. And I had a couple things to listen to. I had recorded books and so on, but it was much more entertaining to listen to other people around me. And all the way up through the surgery, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a little bit tempting to not get too angry because they were taking so long. But still, my choice was not to be worried by all that, because that could only make matters worse. And when we did the surgery, I came right out of it, and started joking with the doctors right away, and they didn't believe that I was coming out of the anesthetic so fast, but I did and and we had a lot of fun with it, but it is, it is interesting. We do have the ability to make choices, and we can choose to move forward in a positive way or not. And I think if we don't choose to do that, and we we allow ourselves to be controlled by our fears, that's really where too many times, we have too many problems that we don't deal with nearly as well as we can.   Andra Wochesen ** 51:36 Yeah, I think choice is key, right? We have a choice what we think. We have a choice how we feel. And I do want to say I'm a big advocate of positive mindset, but I'm also a very big advocate of feeling your feelings. And so I think there's a difference between true feelings and feelings where we create a story around the feelings, and I think it's, I just really want to voice that today, in terms of people not pasting over feelings. I think there's a, yeah, there's a place for all of it. I think getting stuck in negativity or bad feelings or hard feelings is not where we want to be, but suppressing them if they're there, is also not a good place to be. And I think in fact, for me, in this I can be elevated very easily, because it's what I do for a living. But I think me being much more vocal about the challenges of this or the anger, has actually opened up a stronger conviction in me that is actually opening up more power in my expression. And so I feel I just really wanted to presence that in this moment, because I think it's really key to be yes, obviously choosing, choosing our focus and seeing. We talked about that many times today, about seeing the brightness or seeing the gifts and seeing the positives. But I do think it's really important for people to feel what they need to feel. So just wanted to presence that it's what I do all the time with people, and it's one it's what I'm doing with myself.   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 Yeah, and that's why you're walking the talk and you're succeeding. How is faith imperative when navigating challenges like life, challenges like what you're facing now?   Andra Wochesen ** 53:37 Well, I think I remember one talk you said when you were in the World Trade Center and just said, like God said to you, go here or stay calm. I mean, I don't want to misquote you, but it was, I really could feel the truth of that. And so I think there is a higher power, a higher voice, whatever you want to call it, whether it is God, source, spirit, universe, Higher Self, everybody has different language for it. And I think if we can tune in and believe that things are happening for us versus to us, or that there is guidance that's available for us, it's, I think it's what I think we needed. It's, I feel like sometimes it's the only thing that will get us through the hard times, right, is really believing in, yeah, something bigger than us in our own capacity to handle things and and I'm going to say and cultivating that especially in times of challenge. Because I think when we're in times of challenge, it's easier to lose faith. And I actually think we need to double down on faith when in our in our most challenging moments.   Michael Hingson ** 54:42 What is faith?   Andra Wochesen ** 54:46 Well, that's everybody that I can't speak to that, right? That's your I'm speaking to it in my perspective, I think faith is belief in something bigger than you. I think it's faith is. Something unseen, right, something that has not yet manifested. It's believing in something that's not yet in front of you, right? So I can and choose where to place my faith, right? And you get to choose where to place it, so Right, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 But you're continuing, even with the breast cancer and so on. You're continuing to coach, right?   Andra Wochesen ** 55:22 I am, until otherwise I've everybody in my world has to be flexible, because obviously I it's unknown for me in terms of what and I will never show up for a session when I'm not at my fullest capacity. So it just depends on, you know, what that looks like? You know, if I'm recovering from surgery, I'm going to take some time for myself. If I'm in chemotherapy, I'm probably not going to feel very good for certain days, so I'm not going to coach on those days. So it's about, again, me intuiting what I need for me and what serves me, and then making sure that anybody who comes into my world has a very good understanding of that.   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 Oh, can people who are experiencing this podcast with us today apply all of these lessons in their own lives and so on going forward?   Andra Wochesen ** 56:13 Well, I think it's like anything we talked about a lot of things, and I think it's whatever is landing with someone is what they're meant to hear. So there I, you know, very specifically, gave three things around my cancer diagnosis, which I'll reiterate, for people to apply, because I think it's like three steps see the higher perspective of whatever situation or circumstance that you're in that feels like a challenge, whether that is a work challenge, a relationship challenge, a health challenge. Number two, I think, is tuning in to your intuitive guidance, and let's say faith in that container, in that number two. And then I think number three is allowing yourself to express the humanness, which I talked about here, right? Allowing yourself to feel what you feel. Yes, choose the higher perspective when you can. But there are times where tears need to flow, or where you are angry, and it's not about taking out anger on someone else. It's about finding a tool to be able to help you release that anger or be able to express it. So there's, there's lots of things that we can do for that. So I think it's like, yeah, I hope that people can whatever situation they're going through right now that feels even if it's not challenging, it doesn't have to be challenging. But it's like, yeah, see the bigger picture. Tune into intuitive guidance and feel what's really there for you,   Michael Hingson ** 57:41 yeah, which is really important to do. I think we we never spend our we mostly don't spend nearly enough time listening to ourselves and listening to what our inner voices have to say to us that we can use. And I think it's so important to do that,   Andra Wochesen ** 57:59 yes, every day. And I think when we're faced with challenges, it's heightened. And I believe our challenges are here to I've always listened to my inner self, but I think this cancer is like, no, no, you, you're you, you're this is here for you to do it even more. And so I think our challenges are are an opportunity for that to deepen.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Well, since you are coaching, and you do a lot of that, if people want to reach out to you and maybe follow up on what they're hearing today, how do they do that?   Andra Wochesen ** 58:29 My website you could do is, actually, you're on LinkedIn a lot, so probably people are listening to this on LinkedIn. So Andra Wochesen is my if you look that up on LinkedIn, Andrawochesen.com, is my website,   Michael Hingson ** 58:44 why don't you spell that? If you would Sure, sure, yeah, a,   Andra Wochesen ** 58:47 An, D, R, A, W, O, C, H, E, S, E, N, and then.com and yeah, I'm also on Instagram, a little bit under Andra underscore energy, coach, so those are the three main places that I am sort of accessible, or where people can reach out.   Michael Hingson ** 59:08 Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of invaluable insights, and I think there is a lot to be said for the kinds of things that we've talked about today, because we have to listen to ourselves, and mostly we probably have to learn how to listen to ourselves. And you certainly can help with that. Yeah,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:31 that's a great way to say it, right? It is. It is a it's another choice, right? And it is a skill. And it is. It does require a moment to slow down, to really tune in and listen. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here and spending an hour with us. Can you believe it's been an hour already we've had a lot of fun telling you conversation,   Andra Wochesen ** 59:52 yeah, lots of different topics, lots of different areas. And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to connect with you and. Your audience and to share my story and hopefully some inspiration or insight for those listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 Well, we're very grateful that you took the time to do this, and I want to express my gratitude to all of you who are out there listening or watching this, and we appreciate you doing so. I hope you liked what Andrew Watson had to say today, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week

Le 11 septembre 2001, les États-Unis ont été le théâtre d'une série d'attentats meurtriers, impliquant quatre avions civils. Deux de ces appareils ont frappé les tours du World Trade Center, à New York, et un troisième a percuté l'une des façades du Pentagone, en banlieue de la capitale Washington D.C. Bilan : plus de 3000 morts. Selon la version officielle, ces actes auraient été orchestrés par le groupement terroriste Al-Qaïda, sous la férule du saoudien Oussama ben Laden. Dans les jours suivant les attentats, ces événements ont été revus et corrigés par une poignée d'individus qualifiés de «complotistes». Selon eux, ces attentats n'étaient qu'une vaste supercherie planifiée par l'administration de George W. Bush, le 43e président des États-Unis, pour la mise en place d'un Nouvel Ordre Mondial. Certains d'entre eux remettent même en question la «réalité» des avions, les substituant à des aéronefs téléguidés, des missiles, voire des hologrammes. Ces propositions résistent-elles à un examen critique ? Voir https://www.cogecomedia.com/vie-privee pour notre politique de vie privée

You're on an airplane that crash lands. Smoke fills the cabin, and you've got only seconds to react. How would you respond? Would you immediately take action — or freeze in place?While you might think you know how a scene like this would play out from watching movies, the reality of what occurs in the aftermath of a disaster is quite a bit different. And that knowledge gap could prove deadly.My guest, Amanda Ripley, spent years researching how humans actually respond in emergencies, interviewing their survivors, as well leading researchers. In her book, The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes—and Why, she uncovers the myths and realities of survival psychology and explores the individual and structural factors that shape people's outcomes in unexpected crises. Today, Amanda explains why the biggest threat during an emergency isn't panic but passivity — and how to overcome the tendency to be overly complacent and compliant. We discuss why you might actually want to read the airplane safety card, what we can learn from the surprising calm that prevailed in the World Trade Center towers on 9/11, how to improve your risk assessment, what influences if you'll act heroically in an emergency, and much more. This episode will give you plenty to think about — and could even make the difference in how you respond if you're ever faced with the unthinkable.Resources Related to the PodcastAoM article on how to develop situational awarenessAoM article on why people respond passively to emergenciesBox breathingBeverly Hills Supper Club fireRick RescorlaConnect With Amanda RipleyAmanda's website

“Manager and leader”? What's the difference. During my conversation this time with Scott Hanton, our guest, we will discuss this very point along with many other fascinating and interesting subjects. As Scott tells us at the beginning of this episode he grew up asking “why” about most anything you can think of. He always was a “why” asker. As he tells it, unlike many children who grow out of the phase of asking “why” he did not. He still asks “why” to this very day.   At the age of 13 Scott decided that he wanted to be a chemist. He tells us how this decision came about and why he has always stayed with it. Scott received his bachelor's degree in Chemistry from Michigan State and his PHD from the University of Wisconsin. Again, why he changed schools for his PHD work is an interesting story. As you will see, Scott tells stories in a unique and quite articulate way.   After his university days were over Scott went to work, yes as a chemist. He tells us about this and how after 20 years with one company how and why he moved to another company and somewhat out of constant lab work into some of the management, business and leadership side of a second company. He stayed there for ten years and was laid off during the pandemic. Scott then found employment as the editorial director of Lab Management Magazine where he got to bring his love of teaching to the forefront of his work.   My hour with Scott gives us all many insights into management, leadership and how to combine the two to create a strong teaming environment. I believe you will find Scott's thoughts extremely poignant and helpful in everything that you do.     About the Guest:   Scott Hanton is the Editorial Director of Lab Manager. He spent 30 years as a research chemist, lab manager, and business leader at Air Products and Intertek. Scott thrives on the challenges of problem-solving. He enjoys research, investigation, and collaboration. Scott is a people-centric, servant leader. He is motivated by developing environments where people can grow and succeed, and crafting roles for people that take advantage of their strengths.   Scott earned a BS in chemistry from Michigan State University and a PhD in physical chemistry from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is an active member of the American Chemical Society (ACS), the American Society of Mass Spectrometry (ASMS), and the Association of Lab Managers (ALMA). As a scientist Scott values curiosity, innovation, progress, and delivery of results. Scott has always been motivated by questions beginning with why. Studying physical chemistry in graduate school offered the opportunity to hone answers to these questions. As a professional scientist, Scott worked in analytical chemistry specializing in MALDI mass spectrometry and polymer characterization.   At Scott married his high school sweetheart, and they have one son. Scott is motivated by excellence, happiness, and kindness. He most enjoys helping people and solving problems. Away from work, Scott enjoys working outside in the yard, playing strategy games, and participating in different discussion groups.   Scott values having a growth mindset and is a life-long learner. He strives to learn something new everyday and from everyone. One of the great parts of being a trained research scientist is that failure really isn't part of his vocabulary. He experiments and either experiences success or learns something new. He values both individual and organizational learning.   Scott's current role at Lab Manager encompasses three major responsibilities: ·      Writing articles and giving presentations to share his experience with lab managers. ·      Driving the creation and growth of the Lab Manager Academy (https://labmanageracademy.com/) that currently contains three certificate programs: lab management, lab safety management, and lab quality management. ·      Helping people through his knowledge of science, scientists, management, and leadership. He is very happy sharing the accumulated wisdom of his experiences as a researcher, lab supervisor, and lab manager. Each article posted on Lab Manager addresses a decision that a lab manager needs to make. Lab management is full of decision-making, so helping people make better, faster, more complete decisions is very satisfying. Ways to connect with Scott:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-hanton/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet, and mostly we get to deal with the unexpected, as opposed to inclusion or diversity. But that's okay, because unexpected is what makes life fun, and our guest today, Scott Hanton, will definitely be able to talk about that. Scott has been a research chemist. He comes from the chemistry world, so he and I in the past have compared notes, because, of course, I come from the physics world, and I love to tell people that the most important thing I learned about physics was that, unlike Doc Brown, although I do know how to build a bomb, unlike Doc Brown from Back to the Future, I'm not dumb enough to try to go steal fissionable material from a terrorist group to build the bomb. So, you know, I suppose that's a value, value lesson somewhere. But anyway, I am really glad that you're all here with us today, and we have lots to talk about. Scott, as I said, was in chemistry and research chemist, and now is the editorial supervisor and other things for a magazine called lab manager, and we will talk about that as well. So Scott, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad   Scott Hanton ** 02:38 you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 Well, I think it'll be a lot of fun, and looking forward to it. Now, you're in Michigan, right?   Scott Hanton ** 02:48 That's right. I live in South Lyon, Michigan,   Michael Hingson ** 02:51 ah, what's the weather back there today?   Scott Hanton ** 02:55 It's probably about 55 degrees and cloudy   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 here today. Well, it's still fairly sunny here, and we're actually, according to my iPhone, at 71 so it was up around 80 earlier in the week, but weather changes are still going to bring some cold for a while   Scott Hanton ** 03:15 in here in Michigan, I visited a customer earlier this week, and I drove by about 1000 orange barrels on the highway, which means it's spring, because there's only two seasons in Michigan, winter and construction.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 There you go. Yeah, I know. I went to the University of California, Irvine, UCI. And if you ask somebody who doesn't know that UCI stands for University of California at Irvine. If you ask them what UCI stands for, they'll tell you, under construction indefinitely. Sounds right? Yeah. Well, it's been doing it ever since I was there a long time ago, and they they continue to grow. Now we're up to like 32,000 fresh, or excuse me, undergraduates at the university. And when I was there, there were 2700 students. So it's grown a little. That's   Scott Hanton ** 04:05 a lot of change. I'm used to big universities. I'm a graduate of both Michigan State and the University of Wisconsin. So these are big places.   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 Wow, yeah. So you're used to it. I really enjoyed it when it was a small campus. I'm glad I went there, and that was one of the reasons that caused me to go there, was because I knew I could probably get a little bit more visibility with instructors, and that would be helpful for me to get information when they didn't describe things well in class. And it generally worked out pretty well. So I can't complain a lot. Perfect. Glad it worked well for you, it did. Well, why don't you start, if you would, by telling us kind of about the early Scott growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Scott Hanton ** 04:49 I grew up in Michigan, in a town called Saginaw. I was blessed with a family that loved me and that, you know, I was raised in a very. Supportive environment. But young Scott asked, Why about everything you know, the way kids do? Yeah, right. And my mom would tell you that when I was a kid, why was my most favorite word? And most kids outgrow that. I never did, yeah, so Me neither. I still ask why all the time. It's still my most favorite word, and it caused me to want to go explore the sciences, because what I found, as I learned about science, was that I could get answers to why questions better in science than in other places.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 Yeah, makes sense. So what kinds of questions did you ask about why? Well, I asked   Scott Hanton ** 05:43 all kinds of questions about why, like, why are we having that for dinner? Or, why is my bedtime so early? Those questions didn't have good answers, at least from my perspective, right? But I also asked questions like, why is grass green, and why is the sky blue? And studying physical chemistry at Michigan State answered those questions. And so   Michael Hingson ** 06:03 how early did you learn about Rayleigh scattering? But that's you know?   Scott Hanton ** 06:07 Well, I learned the basic concepts from a really important teacher in my life, Mr. Leeson was my seventh grade science teacher, and what I learned from him is that I could ask questions that weren't pertinent to what he was lecturing about, and that taught me a lot about the fact that science was a lot bigger than what we got in the curriculum or in the classroom. And so Mr. Leeson was a really important person in my development, and showed me that there was that science was a lot bigger than I thought it was as a student, but I didn't really learn about rally scattering until I got to college.   Michael Hingson ** 06:43 But at the same time, it sounds like he was willing to allow you to grow and and learn, which so many people aren't willing to do. They're too impatient.   Scott Hanton ** 06:58 He was a first year teacher the year I had him so he hadn't become cynical yet. So it was great to just be able to stay after class and ask him a question, or put my hand up in class and ask him a question. He also did a whole series of demonstrations that were fabulous and made the science come to life in a way that reading about it doesn't stir the imagination. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:23 I had teachers that did that too. I remember very well my freshman general science teacher in high school, Mr. Dills, and one day, and he loved to do kind of unique things, just to push the boundaries of students a little bit. He came in one day and he said, I got a pop quiz for everybody, which doesn't help me, because the pop quiz was in print, but he handed it out. And then he took me to the back of the room, and he said, You're not going to really be able to do this quiz. Let me tell you why. And he said, Oh, and one thing he said is, just be sure you follow all the instructions and you'll be fine on the test to everybody. He brought me back to the back of the room. He says, Well, here's the deal. He says, if people really read the instructions, what they'll do is they'll read the instruction that says, Read all the questions before you start answering, and if you get to the last question, it says answer only the first question, which is what is your name and and sure enough, of course, people didn't read the instructions. And he said, so I wouldn't be able to really deal with you with that one, with that whole thing, just because it wouldn't work well. And I said, I understand, but he loved to make students think, and I learned so much about the whole concept of realizing the need to observe and be observant in all that you do. And it was lessons like that from him that really helped a lot with that. For me,   Scott Hanton ** 08:48 I had a high school chemistry teacher named Mrs. Schultz, and the first experiment that we did in her class, in the first week of classes, was she wanted us to document all of the observations that we could make about a burning candle. And I was a hot shot student. Thought I, you know, owned the world, and I was going to ace this test. And, you know, I had maybe a dozen observations about a burning candle, and thought I had done a great job describing it, until she started sharing her list, and she probably had 80 observations about a burning candle, and it taught me the power of observation and the need to talk about the details of those observations and to be specific about what the observations were. And that experiment seems simple, light a candle and tell me what you see. Yeah, but that lesson has carried on with me now for more than approaching 50 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 Let's see, as I recall, if you light a candle, what the center of the flame is actually pretty cool compared to the outside. It's more hollow. Now I wouldn't be able to easily tell that, because. Is my my process for observing doesn't really use eyesight to do that, so I I'm sure there are other technologies today that I could use to get more of that information. But   Scott Hanton ** 10:12 I'm also sure that that experiment could be re crafted so that it wasn't so visual, yeah, right, that there could be tactile experiments to tell me about observations or or audible experiments about observation, where you would excel in ways that I would suffer because I'm so visually dominant. The   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 issue, though, is that today, there's a lot more technology to do that than there was when I was in school and you were in school, but yeah, I think there is a lot available. There's a company called Independence Science, which is actually owned and run by Dr Cary sapollo. And Carrie is blind, and he is a blind chemist, and he wanted to help develop products for blind people to be able to deal with laboratory work. So he actually worked with a company that was, well, it's now Vernier education systems. They make a product called LabQuest with something like 80 different kinds of probes that you can attach to it, and the LabQuest will will provide visual interpretations of whatever the probes are showing carry, and independent science took that product and made it talk, so that There is now a Talking LabQuest. And the reality is that all those probes became usable because the LabQuest became accessible to be able to do that, and they put a lot of other things into it too. So it's more than just as a talking device, a lab device. It's got a periodic table in it. It's got a lot of other kinds of things that they just put in it as well. But it's really pretty cool because it now makes science a whole lot more accessible. I'm going to have to think about the different kinds of probes and how one could use that to look at a candle. I think that'd be kind of fun.   Scott Hanton ** 12:15 And it's just awesome to hear that there's innovation and space to make science more available to everybody. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 the real problem that we face is the one that we mostly always have faced, which is societal attitudes, as opposed to really being or not being able to do the experiments, is people think we can't, and that's the barrier that we always, usually have to overcome.   Scott Hanton ** 12:39 What I find in my time as a coach, mentor, supervisor, is that if somebody believes they can't do it, they can't do it. Yeah. And so it's often about overcoming their own mental limitations, the limitations that they've placed on themselves,   Michael Hingson ** 12:56 and that's right, or unfortunately, the limitations that other people place on us, and we, all too often and weigh too much, buy into those limitations. So it's it is something that we, especially in the sciences, should recognize that we shouldn't be doing so much of. I know that when I was at UC Irvine as a graduate student, I learned once that there was a letter in my file that a professor wrote. Fortunately, I never had him as a professor, but it and I was in my master's program at the time in physics, and this guy put a letter in my file saying that no blind person could ever absorb the material to get an advanced degree in physics at the University. Just put that in there, which is so unfortunate, because the real thing that is demonstrated there is a prejudice that no scientist should ever have.   Scott Hanton ** 13:51 I'm hopeful that as you graduated, there was a retraction letter in your file as well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 not that I ever heard, but yeah. Well, I'd already gotten my bachelor's degree, but yeah. But you know, things happen, but it is a it is a societal thing, and society all too often creates limitations, and sometimes we don't find them right away, but it is one of the big issues that, in general, we have to deal with. And on all too often, society does some pretty strange things because it doesn't understand what science is all about. I know when we were dealing with covid, when it all started, leaving the conspiracy theorists out of it. One of the things that I learned was that we have all these discussions about AI, if you will. But AI was one of the primary mechanisms that helped to develop the mRNA vaccines that are now still the primary things that we use to get vaccinated against covid, because they the artificial intelligence. I'm not sure how artificial. It is, but was able to craft what became the vaccine in a few days. And scientists acknowledged, if they had to do it totally on their own, it would take years to have done what AI did in a few days.   Scott Hanton ** 15:13 The AI technology is amazing and powerful, but it's not new. No, I met a person who shared her story about AI investigations and talked about what she was doing in this field 30 years ago. Yeah, in her master's work. And you know, I knew it wasn't brand new, but I didn't really realize how deep its roots went until I talked to her.   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 I worked as my first jobs out of college with Ray Kurzweil, who, of course, nowadays, is well known for the singularity and so on. But back then, he developed the first reading machine that blind people could use to read printed material. And one of the things that he put into that machine was the ability, as it scanned more material, to learn and better recognize the material. And so he was doing machine learning back in the 1970s   Scott Hanton ** 16:07 right? And all of this is, you know, as Newton said on the shoulders of giants, right, right? He said it a bit cynically, but it's still true that we all in science, we are learning from each other. We're learning from the broader community, and we're integrating that knowledge as we tackle the challenges that we are exploring.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 So what got you to go into chemistry when you went into college?   Scott Hanton ** 16:33 That's a good question. So when I was 13 years old, I went on a youth a church group youth trip to another city, and so they split us up, and there were three of us from our group that stayed overnight in a host family. And at dinner that night, the father worked in a pharmaceutical company, and he talked about the work he was doing, and what he was doing was really synthetic chemistry around small molecule drug discovery. And for me, it was absolutely fascinating. I was thrilled at that information. I didn't know any scientists growing up, I had no adult input other than teachers about science, and I can remember going back home and my parents asking me how the trip went. And it's like, it's fantastic. I'm going to be a chemist. And they both looked at me like, what is that? How do you make money from it? How do you get that? My dad was a banker. My mom was a school teacher. They had no scientific background, but that that one conversation, such serendipity, right? One conversation when I was 13 years old, and I came home and said, I'm going to be a chemist, and I've never really deviated from that path. Did you have other siblings? Younger brother and another younger sister?   Michael Hingson ** 17:54 Okay? Did they go into science by any remote chance?   Scott Hanton ** 17:58 Not at all. So they were both seventh grade teachers for more than 30 years. So my brother taught math and English, and my sister teaches social studies.   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 Well, there you go. But that is also important. I actually wanted to teach physics, but jobs and other things and circumstances took me in different directions, but I think the reality is that I ended up going into sales. And what I realized, and it was partly because of a Dale Carnegie sales course I took, but I realized that good sales people are really teachers, because they're really teaching people about products or about things, and they're also sharp enough to recognize what their products might or might not do to help a customer. But that, again, not everyone does that, but so I figure I still was teaching, and today, being a public speaker, traveling the world, talking, of course, about teamwork and other things, it's still all about teaching.   Scott Hanton ** 18:57 I think I've always been a teacher, and if you talk to my coworkers along the way, I enjoy helping people. I enjoy sharing my knowledge. There's always been a teacher inside but only in this job as the editorial director at lab manager have I really been able to do it directly. So we've developed what we call the lab manager Academy, and I create e learning courses to help lab managers be more successful, and it's been a passion project for me, and it's been a load of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 19:30 And it doesn't get better than that. It's always great when it's a load of fun, yes,   Scott Hanton ** 19:35 well, so you left college and you got a bachelor's and a master's degree, right? No masters for me, that step you went right to the old PhD, yeah. So I went straight. I went graduated from Michigan State. So Michigan State was on terms back in those days. So graduated in June, got married in July, moved to Wisconsin in August. To graduate school at the end of August at the University of Wisconsin. Okay? And my second year as a graduate student, my professor asked me, Do you want to stop and complete a master's? And I said, Wait, tell me about this word stop. And he said, Well, you'd have to finish the Master's requirements and write a thesis, and that's going to take some time. And I said, Do I have to and he said, No, and I don't recommend it. Just keep going forward and finish your PhD. So that's   Michael Hingson ** 20:30 and what does your wife do?   Scott Hanton ** 20:33 So my wife also is in the graduate program at the University of Wisconsin, and she decided that a master's degree was the right answer for her, because she didn't want to be a PhD scientist in XYZ narrow band of science. She wanted to be a master of chemistry. Okay, and so we took different paths through graduate school, but each of us took the path that worked best for us, and each pass has great value, so we're both happy with the choices that we made,   Michael Hingson ** 21:06 and complement each other and also give you, still lots of great things to talk about over dinner.   Scott Hanton ** 21:12 Absolutely. And she took that master's degree, went into the pharmaceutical industry and largely behaved as a librarian in her first part of her career, she wasn't called a librarian, but what she really did was a lot of information integrating, and then moved into the Library Group, and was a corporate librarian for a long time, and then a community librarian. So that path worked brilliantly for her. She also has a Masters of Library Science. So I have one PhD. She has two Master's degree. I have one bachelor's degree. She has two bachelor's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 21:50 Oh, so you can have interesting discussions about who really progressed further,   21:54 absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 21:57 Well, that's, that's, that's cute, though. Well, I I got my bachelor's and master's. My wife, who I didn't meet until years later, wanted to be a librarian, but she ended up getting a a Master's at USC in so in sociology and and ended up getting a teaching credential and going into teaching, and taught for 10 years, and then she decided she wanted to do something different, and became a travel agent, which she had a lot of fun with. That is different, it is, but she enjoyed it, and along the way, then we got married. It was a great marriage. She was in a wheelchair her whole life. So she read, I pushed, worked out well, complimentary skills, absolutely, which is the way, way it ought to be, you know, and we had a lot of fun with it. Unfortunately, she passed now two and a half years ago, but as I tell people, we were married 40 years, and I'm sure she's monitoring me from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I try to just behave. Sounds like good advice. Yeah, probably certainly the safe way to go. But we, we, we had lots of neat discussions, and our our activities and our expertise did, in a lot of ways, complement each other, so it was a lot of fun. And as I said, she went to USC. I enjoyed listening to USC football because I thought that that particular college team had the best announcers in the business, least when when I was studying in Southern California, and then when we got married, we learned the the day we got married, the wedding was supposed to start at four, and it didn't start till later because people weren't showing up for the wedding. And we learned that everybody was sitting out in their cars waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. And we knew that God was on our side when we learned that SC beat the snot out of Notre Dame. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, the rivalries we face. So what did you do after college?   Scott Hanton ** 24:09 So did my PhD at the University of Wisconsin. And one of the nice things, a fringe benefit of going to a big, important program to do your PhD, is that recruiters come to you. And so I was able to do 40 different, four, zero, 40 different interviews on campus without leaving Madison. And one of those interviews was with a company called Air Products. And that worked out, and they hired me. And so we moved to Allentown, Pennsylvania to go to work. I went to work at Air Products and and Helen found a role in the pharmaceutical industry at Merck. And so we did that for a long time. I was initially a research expert, a PhD expert doing lasers and materials and analytical stuff. And over the years. I progressed up the ladder from researcher to supervisor to what did we call it, group head to Section Manager, to operations manager, and ultimately to General Manager.   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 Well, at least being in Allentown, you were close to a Cracker Barrel restaurant. Yes, that is true. That was the closest to one to where we lived in New Jersey, so we visited it several times. That's how I know   Scott Hanton ** 25:26 about it. Maybe we were there at the same time. Michael, maybe this isn't our first. It's   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 very possible. But we enjoyed Cracker Barrel and enjoyed touring around Pennsylvania. So I should have asked, What prompted you to go to the University of Wisconsin to do your your graduate work, as opposed to staying in Michigan. So   Scott Hanton ** 25:47 my advisor at Michigan State, our advisor at Michigan State, told us, here's the top five schools, graduate programs in chemistry, apply to them all. Go to the one you get into. And so I got into three. Helen got into two. The one that was the same was Wisconsin. So that's where we went, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 Well, then no better logic and argument than that.   Scott Hanton ** 26:14 It was a great Madison. Wisconsin is a beautiful city. It one of the things I really liked about the chemistry program there then, and it's still true now, is how well the faculty get along together so many collaborative projects and just friendliness throughout the hallways. And yes, they are all competing at some level for grant support, but they get along so well, and that makes it for a very strong community,   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 and it probably also means that oftentimes someone who's applying for something can enlist support from other people who are willing to help.   Scott Hanton ** 26:50 And as a graduate student, it meant that I had more than one professor that I could go to my advisor. There was a whole group of advisors who ran joint group meetings and would give us advice about our work or our writing or our approach, or just because we needed a pep talk, because completing a PhD is hard. Yeah, right, so that community was really important to me, and it's something I took away that when I started my industrial career, I had seen the value of community, and I wanted to build stronger communities wherever I went, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So what does a company, does air products do   Scott Hanton ** 27:31 that's sort of in the name, right? They're an industrial gas company. Got some of their big, biggest products are taking air and separating it into its components of nitrogen, oxygen, oxygen, argon, whatever, right? But at that time, they also had a chemicals business and a semiconductor business, or electronics business. So there was a lot of chemistry going on, although a lot of my work colleagues were chemical engineers who were working on the gasses side of the business, we had significant number of chemistry, sorts material science, sorts of people who are working on the chemicals side. Now, over time, Air Products divested those businesses, and now it's much more of a true industrial gas company. But I had the opportunity to work in an integrated science company that did all sorts of things.   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Yeah, and as as we know, certainly a little helium never hurt anyone.   Scott Hanton ** 28:30 No little helium, you know, raises people's spirits, it   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 does and their voices, it does. I I've visited helium tanks many times at UC Irvine when they had liquid helium, which was certainly a challenge because of how cold it had to be. But occasionally we would open a valve and little cold but useful helium gas would escape   Scott Hanton ** 28:56 very cold. Please be safe. Cryogens are are dangerous materials, and we gotta make sure we handle them with due respect.   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 Yeah, well, we, we all did and and didn't take too many chances. So it worked out pretty well. So you stayed in Allentown and you stayed with Air Products for how long   Scott Hanton ** 29:19 I was in Air Products for 20 years. So the analytical group that I was part of, we were about 92 or 93 people when I joined the company, when I just left after earning my PhD. After 20 years, that group was down to about 35 just progressive series of decisions that made the department smaller, and as the Department got smaller and smaller, we were worried about our abilities to sustain our work. And so a dear friend and a key colleague, Paula McDaniel, and I, worked to try to see what other kind of opportunities there were. Yeah. And so we reached out to a contract research organization called Intertech to see if they would be interested in maybe acquiring our analytical department. And when we called them, and by the way, we called them before we talked to our boss about it, she forgave us later, but when we called the guy on the end of the phone said, Wait a minute, let me get your file. And it's like, what you have a file on Air Products, analytical, really? Why? Well, it turned out that they had a file, and that they had an active Merger and Acquisition Group, and they wanted an integrated analytical department on the east coast of the US. And so we engaged in negotiation, and ultimately this analytical department was sold by Air Products to Intertech. So on Friday, we're a little cog in a giant engine of an global, international company, and our funding comes from Vice Presidents. And on Monday, we're a standalone business of 35 people, we need to write quotes in order to make money. So it was an enormous challenge to transition from a service organization to a business. But oh my goodness, did we learn a lot,   Michael Hingson ** 31:13 certainly a major paradigm shift,   Scott Hanton ** 31:18 and I was lucky that I lost the coin flip, and Paula won, and she said, I want to be business development director. And I said, thank God. So she went off to be the key salesperson, and Paula was utterly brilliant as a technical salesperson, and I became the operations manager, which allowed me to keep my hands dirty with the science and to work with the scientists and to build a system and a community that allowed us to be successful in a CRO world.   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So at that time, when you became part, part of them, the new company, were you or the standalone business? Were you working in lab? Still yourself?   Scott Hanton ** 32:01 Yes. So I had the title Operations Manager and all of the scientific staff reported into me, but I was still the technical expert in some mass spectrometry techniques, particularly MALDI and also tough Sims, and so I still had hands on lab responsibility that I needed to deliver. And over time, I was able to train some people to take some of those responsibilities off. But when the weight of the world was particularly heavy, the place for me to go was in the lab and do some experiments.   Michael Hingson ** 32:34 Yeah, still so important to be able to keep your hand in into to know and understand. I know I had that same sort of need being the manager of an office and oftentimes working with other people who were the engineers, coming from a little bit of a technical background as well. I worked to always make sure I knew all I could about the products that I was dealing with and selling, and my sales people who worked for me constantly asked, How come, you know, all this stuff, and we don't then, my response always was, did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Or have you kept up on the product bulletins? Because it's all right there, whether I actually physically repaired products or not, I knew how to do it. And so many times when I was involved in working with some of our engineers, I remember a few times our field support people, and we were working out of New Jersey, and then in New York at the time, in the World Trade Center, we had some customers up at Lockheed Martin, up in Syria, Rochester, I think it was. And the guys would go up, and then they'd call me on the phone, and we'd talk about it, and between us, we came up with some bright ideas. And I remember one day, all of a sudden, I get this phone call, and these guys are just bouncing off the walls, because whatever it was that was going on between them and me, we figured it out, and they put it in play and made it work, and they were all just as happy as clams at high tide, which is the way it ought to   Scott Hanton ** 34:13 be. It's great to work in a team that finds success. The longer I was in technical management, the more I enjoyed the success of the team. It didn't need to be my success anymore that helping the scientists be successful in their roles was truly satisfying,   Michael Hingson ** 34:33 and that helped you, by definition, be more successful in your role.   Scott Hanton ** 34:36 And no question, it could be seen as a selfish byproduct, but the fact is that it still felt really good.   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Yeah, I hear you, because I know for me, I never thought about it as I've got to be successful. It's we've got problems to solve. Let's do it together. And I always told people that we're a team. And I have told every salesperson. I ever hired. I'm not here to boss you around. You've convinced me that you should be able to sell our products, and sometimes I found that they couldn't. But I said my job is to work with you to figure out how I can enhance what you do, and what skills do I bring to add value to you, because we've got to work together, and the people who understood that and who got it were always the most successful people that I ever had in my teams.   Scott Hanton ** 35:30 One of the things I strive to do as a leader of any organization is to understand the key strengths of the people on the team and to try to craft their roles in such a way that they spend the majority of their time executing their strengths. Yeah. I've also discovered that when I truly investigate poor performance, there's often a correlation between poor performance and people working in their weaknesses. Yeah, and if we can shift those jobs, change those roles, make change happen so that people can work more often in their strengths, then good things happen.   Michael Hingson ** 36:07 And if you can bring some of your skills into the mix and augment what they do, so much the better.   Scott Hanton ** 36:16 Yeah, because I'm just another member of the team, my role is different, but I need to also apply my strengths to the problems and be wary of my weaknesses, because as the leader of the organization, my words carried undue weight. Yeah, and if, if I was speaking or acting in a space where I was weak, people would still do what I said, because I had the most authority, and that was just a lose, lose proposition   Michael Hingson ** 36:43 by any standard. And and when you, when you operated to everyone's strengths, it always was a win. Yep, which is so cool. So you went to Intertech, and how long were you there?   Scott Hanton ** 36:57 I was at Intertech for 10 years, and work I can if you know, for any listeners out there who work in the CRO world, it is a tough business. It is a grind working in that business, yeah? So it was a lot of long hours and testy customers and shortages of materials and equipment that was a hard a hard a hard road to plow,   Michael Hingson ** 37:22 yeah, yeah, it gets to be frustrating. Sometimes it's what you got to do, but it still gets to be frustrating gets to be a challenge. The best part   Scott Hanton ** 37:32 for me was I had a great team. We had senior and junior scientists. They were good people. They worked hard. They fundamentally, they cared about the outcomes. And so it was a great group of people to work with. But the contract lab business is a tough business. Yeah, so when covid came, you know, the pandemic settles in, all the restrictions are coming upon us. I was tasked as the General Manager of the business with setting up all the protocols, you know, how are we going to meet the number of people this basing the masks, you know, how could we work with and we were essential as a lab, so we had to keep doing what we were doing. And it took me about a week to figure non stop work to figure out what our protocols were going to be, and the moment I turned them into my boss, then I got laid off. So what you want to do in a time of crisis is you want to let go of the the general manager, the safety manager, the quality manager and the Chief Scientist, because those are four people that you don't need during times of stress or challenge or crisis. On the plus side for me, getting laid off was a bad hour. It hurt my pride, but after an hour, I realized that all the things that I'd been stressing about for years trying to run this business were no longer my problem. Yeah, and I found that it was a tremendous weight lifted off my shoulders to not feel responsible for every problem and challenge that that business had.   Michael Hingson ** 39:14 And that's always a good blessing when you when you figure that out and don't worry about the the issues anymore. That's a good thing. It was certainly   Scott Hanton ** 39:25 good for me. Yeah, so I'm not going to recommend that people go get laid off. No world to get fired. But one problem that I had is because Paula and I worked to create that business, I sort of behaved like an owner, but was treated like an employee. And my recommendation to people is, remember, you're an employee, find some personal boundaries that protect you from the stress of the business, because you're not going to be rewarded or treated like an owner.   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 Yeah, because you're not because. Or not.   Scott Hanton ** 40:01 So I got laid off. It was in the height of the pandemic. So, you know, I'm too busy of a human being to sort of sit in a rocking chair and watch the birds fly by. That's not my style or my speed. So I started a consulting business, and that was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed doing the consulting work, but I learned something really important about myself, and that's that while I can sell and I can be an effective salesperson, I don't like selling, and as a company of one, when I didn't sell, I didn't make any money, yeah, and so I needed to figure out something else to do, because I really hated selling, and I wasn't doing it. I was procrastinating, and that made the business be unpredictable and very choppy   Michael Hingson ** 40:51 in that company of one, that guy who was working for you wasn't really doing all that you wanted.   Scott Hanton ** 40:56 Exactly the Yeah, you know me as the founder, was giving me as the salesman, a poor performance review was not meeting objectives. So I had a long time volunteer relationship with lab manager magazine. I had been writing articles for them and speaking for them in webinars and in conferences for a long time, probably more than 10 years, I would say, and they asked me as a consultant to produce a a to a proposal to create the lab manager Academy. So the the founder and owner of the the company, the lab X Media Group, you really saw the value of an academy, and they needed it done. They needed it done. They couldn't figure it out themselves. So I wrote the proposal. I had a good idea of how to do it, but I was new to consulting, and I struggled with, how do I get paid for this? And I had four ideas, but I didn't like them, so I slept on it, and in the morning I had a fifth, which said, hire me full time. I sent in the proposal. An hour later, I had a phone call. A week later, I had a job, so that worked out fantastic. And I've really enjoyed my time at lab manager magazine. Great people, fun work. It's really interesting to me to be valued for what I know rather than for what I can do. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:23 the two relate. But still, it does need to be more about what you know, what you really bring, as opposed to what you can do, because what you can do in general probably is an offshoot of what you know.   Scott Hanton ** 42:38 So this gives me the opportunity to help lots of people. So on the outside of the company, I'm writing articles, creating courses, giving talks to help lab managers. Because I was a lab manager for a long time, yeah, over 20 years, and I know what those challenges are. I know how hard that job is, and I know how many decisions lab managers need to make, and it's wonderful to be able to share my experience and help them, and I am motivated to help them. So was it hard? Oh, go ahead, on the inside, I'm literally an internal subject matter expert, and so I can coach and teach and help my colleagues with what's the science? What do lab managers really think? How do we pitch this so that it resonates with lab managers, and I think that helps make all of our products better and more successful.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 So was it hard? Well, I guess best way to put it is that, was it really hard to switch from being a scientist to being a lab manager and then going into being a subject matter expert and really out of the laboratory. So   Scott Hanton ** 43:48 people ask me all the time, Scott, don't you miss being in the lab and doing experiments? And my answer is, I miss being in the lab. And I do miss being in the lab. You know, on very stressful days at Intertech, I'd go in the lab and I'd do an experiment, yeah, because it was fun, and I had more control over the how the experiment was run and what I would learn from it than I did running a business. But the flip side of that is, I do experiments all the time. What I learned as the general manager of a business was the scientific method works. Let's data hypothesis. Let's figure out how to test it. Let's gather data, and let's see if the hypothesis stands or falls. And we ran a business that way, I think, pretty successfully. And even now, in in media and publishing, we still run experiments all the time. And it's kind of funny that most of my editorial colleagues that I work with, they think my favorite word is experiment. My favorite word is still why, but we talk all the time now about doing experiments, and that was a new thing for them, but now we can do continual improvement more in a more dedicated way, and we do it a lot faster. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:00 yeah. So what's the hardest thing you think about being a lab manager?   Scott Hanton ** 45:06 I think the hardest thing about let me answer that with two. I'm not going to be able to narrow it down to one, so I'll give you two. The first one is you transform, maybe one day to the next, from really being in control of your science and working with whether it's animals or rocks or electrons or chemicals, whatever you're working with, having a great degree of knowledge and a lot of control, and the next day, you're hurting cats. And so it's about that transition from having control over your destiny to influencing people to get the work done, and working with people instead of working with experiments, that's really hard. The second is, as a lab manager, there's endless decisions, and so combating decision fatigue is a big deal, and everybody in the lab depends upon you for the decisions you make. And it's not that every decision has to be perfect, you know, that's just a different failure mode if you try to make perfect decisions, but every decision needs to be made promptly. And as a scientist, I could always make more data in order to make a better decision, but as a lab manager, I would often only have maybe 40 or 50% of the data I wanted, and a decision had to be made. And getting comfortable making decisions in the face of uncertainty is really hard.   Michael Hingson ** 46:29 So certainly, being a lab manager or Well, dealing with managers in the way we're talking about it here, has to be very stressful. How do you how do you cope with the stress?   Scott Hanton ** 46:42 So I think ways to cope with the stress successfully is, first of all, you've got to take care of yourself. You know, we've all flown on airplanes, and what is the safety person in the aisle or on the video? Do oxygen masks will fall from the ceiling, and what do we do with them? We put them on before we help somebody else, right? We all know that. But in the workplace, especially as a manager, it's hard to remember that as we care for our team and try and take care of our team, there might not be enough time or energy or capacity left to take care of ourselves, but if we don't fill that gas tank every day doing something, then we can't help our team. And so one way to deal with the stress is to make sure that you take care of yourself. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 what do you do? How do you deal with that? So   Scott Hanton ** 47:31 for me, ways that I can reinvigorate is one. I like being outside and get my hands dirty. So I'm not really a gardener, but I call myself a yard dinner. So I grow grass and I grow flowers, and I trim trees, and I want to go outside, and I want to see immediate return on my effort, and I want it to be better than when I started. And it's good if I have to clean from under my fingernails when I'm doing it. Another thing I like to do is I play all kinds of games I'm happy to play, sorry, with little kids, or I'll play complicated strategy games with people who want to sit at a table for three or four hours at a time. Yeah? And that allows my brain to spin and to work but on something completely different. Yeah. And another thing that's been important for me, especially when I was a lab manager is to be involved in youth coaching, so I coached kids soccer and basketball and baseball teams, and it's just beautiful to be out there on a field with a ball, with kids. And you know, the worries of the world just aren't there. The kids don't know anything about them. And it's fun to work with the ones who are really good, but it's equally fun to work with the ones who have never seen the ball before, and to help them do even the most basic things. And that kind of giving back and paying it forward, that sort of stuff fills my tank.   Michael Hingson ** 48:51 Yeah, I empathize a lot with with that. For me, I like to read. I've never been much of a gardener, but I also collect, as I mentioned before, old radio shows, and I do that because I'm fascinated by the history and all the things I learned from what people did in the 2030s, 40s and 50s, being on radio, much Less getting the opportunity to learn about the technical aspects of how they did it, because today it's so different in terms of how one edits, how one processes and deals with sounds and so on, but it's but it's fun to do something just totally different than way maybe what your normal Job would be, and and I do love to interact with with people. I love to play games, too. I don't get to do nearly as much of it as I'd like, but playing games is, is a lot of fun,   Scott Hanton ** 49:52 and I agree, and it it's fun, it's diverting, it's it helps me get into a flow so that I'm focused on. Me on one thing, and I have no idea how much time has gone by, and I don't really care. You know, people who play games with me might question this. I don't really care if I win or lose. Certainly I want to win, but it's more important to me that I play well, and if somebody plays better, good for   Michael Hingson ** 50:14 them, great. You'll learn from it. Exactly. Do you play   Scott Hanton ** 50:18 chess? I have played chess. I've played a lot of chess. What I've learned with chess is that I'm not an excellent I'm a good player, but not an excellent player. And when I run into excellent players, they will beat me without even breaking a sweat.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And again, in theory, you learn something from that.   Scott Hanton ** 50:37 What I found is that I don't really want to work that hard and yeah. And so by adding an element of chance or probability to the game, the people who focus on chess, where there are known answers and known situations, they get thrown off by the uncertainty of the of the flip the card or roll the dice. And my brain loves that uncertainty, so I tend to thrive. Maybe it's from my time in the lab with elements of uncertainty, where the chess players wilt under elements of uncertainty, and it's again, it's back to our strengths, right? That's something that I'm good at, so I'm gonna go do it. I've   Michael Hingson ** 51:20 always loved Trivial Pursuit. That's always been a fun game that I enjoy playing. I   Scott Hanton ** 51:25 do love Trivial Pursuit. I watch Jeopardy regularly. A funny story, when we moved into our new house in Pennsylvania, it was a great neighborhood. Loved the neighbors there. When we first moved in, they invited my wife and I to a game night. Excellent. We love games. We're going to play Trivial Pursuit. Awesome like Trivial Pursuit. We're going to play as couples. Bad idea, right? Let's play boys against the girls, or, let's say, random draws. No, we're playing as couples. Okay, so we played as couples. Helen and I won every game by a large margin. We were never invited back for game night. Yeah, invited back for lots of other things, but not game night.   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 One of the things that, and I've talked about it with people on this podcast before, is that all too often, when somebody reads a question from a trivial pursuit card, an answer pops in your head, then you went, Oh, that was too easy. That can't be the right answer. So you think about it, and you answer with something else, but invariably, that first answer was always the correct answer.   Scott Hanton ** 52:32 Yes, I'm I have learned to trust my intuition. Yeah. I learned, as a research scientist, that especially in talking to some of my peers, who are very dogmatic, very step by step scientists. And they lay out the 20 steps to that they felt would be successful. And they would do one at a time, one through 20. And that made them happy for me, I do one and two, and then I'd predict where that data led me, and I do experiment number seven, and if it worked, I'm off to eight. And so I they would do what, one step at a time, one to 20, and I'd sort of do 127, 1420, yeah. And that I learned that that intuition was powerful and valuable, and I've learned to trust it. And in my lab career, it served me really well. But also as a manager, it has served me well to trust my intuition, and at least to listen to it. And if I need to analyze it, I can do that, but I'm going to listen to it,   Michael Hingson ** 53:31 and that's the important thing, because invariably, it's going to give you useful information, and it may be telling you not what to do, but still trusting it and listening to it is so important, I've found that a lot over the years,   Scott Hanton ** 53:47 Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink, where he talks about the power of the subconscious, and his claim is that the subconscious is 100,000 times smarter than our conscious brain, and I think when we are trusting our intuition, we're tapping into that super computer that's in our skulls. If you want to learn more, read blank. It's a great story.   Michael Hingson ** 54:10 I hear you. I agree. How can people learn to be better leaders and managers?   Scott Hanton ** 54:18 So I think it's there's really three normal ways that people do this. One is the power of experiment, right? And I did plenty of that, and I made tons of errors. It's painful. It's irritating, trial and error, but I used to tell people at Intertech that I was the general manager because I'd made the most mistakes, which gave me the most opportunity to learn. It was also partly because a lot of my peers wanted nothing to do with the job. You know, they wanted to be scientists. Another way is we, we get coached and mentored by people around us, and that is awesome if you have good supervisors, and it's tragic if you have bad supervisors, because you don't know any better and you take for granted. That the way it's been done is the way it needs to be done, and that prevents us from being generative leaders and questioning the status quo. So there's problems there, too. And I had both good and bad supervisors during my career. I had some awful, toxic human beings who were my supervisors, who did damage to me, and then I had some brilliant, caring, empathetic people who raised me up and helped me become the leader that I am today. So it's a bit of a crap shoot. The third way is go out and learn it from somebody who's done it right, and that's why we generated the lab manager Academy to try to codify all the mistakes I made and what are the learnings from them? And when I'm talking with learners who are in the program, it's we have a huge positive result feedback on our courses. And what I talk to people about who take our courses is I'm glad you appreciate what we've put together here. That makes me feel good. I'm glad it's helping you. But when these are my mistakes and the answers to my mistakes, when you make mistakes, you need to in the future, go make some courses and teach people what the lessons were from your mistakes and pay it forward. Yeah. So I recommend getting some training.   Michael Hingson ** 56:17 What's the difference between management and leadership?   Scott Hanton ** 56:21 I particularly love a quote from Peter Drucker. So Peter Drucker was a professor in California. You may have heard of him before.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 I have. I never had the opportunity to meet him, but I read.   Scott Hanton ** 56:34 I didn't either material. I've read his books, and I think he is an insightful human being, yes. So the quote goes like this, management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. So as a technical manager, there's a bunch of things we have to get right. We have to get safety right. We have to get quality right. There's an accuracy and precision that we need to get right for our outcomes and our results. Those are management tasks, but leadership is about doing the right things. And the interesting thing about that definition is it doesn't require a title or a role or any level of authority. So anyone can be a leader if you're consistently doing the right things, you are exhibiting leadership, and that could be from the person sweeping the floors or the person approving the budget, or anyone in between.   Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Yeah, I've heard that quote from him before, and absolutely agree with it. It makes a whole lot of sense.   Scott Hanton ** 57:41 Other definitions that I've seen trying to distinguish management and leadership tend to use the words manage and lead, and I don't like definitions that include the words that they're trying to define. They become circular at some level. This one, I think, is clear about it, what its intention is, and for me, it has worked through my career, and so the separation is valuable. I have authority. I'm the manager. I have accountability to get some stuff right, but anyone can lead, and everyone can lead, and the organization works so much better when it's full of leaders   Michael Hingson ** 58:21 and leaders who are willing to recognize when they bring something to the table, or if someone else can add value in ways that they can't, to be willing to let the other individual take the leadership position for a while.   Scott Hanton ** 58:40 Absolutely, and you know that really comes down to building an environment and a culture that's supportive. And so Amy Edmondson has written extensively on the importance of psychological safety, and that psychological safety hinges on what you just said, right? If the guy who sweeps the floor has an observation about the organization. Do they feel safe to go tell the person in charge that this observation, and if they feel safe, and if that leader is sufficiently vulnerable and humble to listen with curiosity about that observation, then everybody benefits, yeah, and the more safe everyone feels. We think about emotion. Emotional safety is they anyone can bring their best self to work, and psychological safety is they can contribute their ideas and observations with no threat of retaliation, then we have an environment where we're going to get the best out of everybody, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 which is the way it it really ought to be. And all too often we don't necessarily see it, but that is the way it ought   Scott Hanton ** 59:53 to be. Too many people are worried about credit, or, I don't know, worried about things that I don't see. Yeah, and they waste human potential, right? They they don't open their doors to hire anybody. They they judge people based on what they look like instead of who they are, or they box people in into roles, and don't let them flourish and Excel. And whenever you're doing those kinds of things, you're wasting human potential. And businesses, science and business are too hard to waste human potential. We need to take advantage of everything that people are willing to give. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 we've been doing this for quite a while already today. So I'm going to ask as a kind of a last question, what, what advice do you want to leave for people to think about going forward in their lives and in their careers?   Scott Hanton ** 1:00:48 So I was participating in a LinkedIn chat today where a professor was asking the question, what sort of advice would you wish you got when you were 21 Okay, so it was an interesting thread, and there was one contributor to the thread who said something I thought was particularly valuable. And she said, attitude matters. Attitude matters. We can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we deal with it and how we respond, right? And so I think if we can hold our attitude as our accountability, and we can direct our strengths and our talents to applying them against the challenges that the business or the science or the lab or the community faces, and we can go in with some positive attitude and positive desire for for change and improvement, and we can be vulnerable and humble enough to accept other people's ideas and to interact through discussion and healthy debate. Then everything's better. I also like Kelleher his quote he was the co founder of Southwest Airlines, and he said, when you're hiring, hire for attitude, train for skill. Attitude is so important. So I think, understand your attitude. Bring the attitude you want, the attitude you value, the attitude that's that's parallel to your core values. And then communicate to others about their attitude and how it's working or not working for them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:31 And hopefully, if they have a positive or good enough attitude, they will take that into consideration and grow because of it absolutely   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:41 gives everybody the chance to be the best they can be.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, Scott, this has been wonderful. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?   Scott Hanton ** 1:02:51 So LinkedIn is great. I've provided Michael my LinkedIn connection. So I would love to have people connect to me on LinkedIn or email. S Hanson at lab manager.com love to have interactions with the folks out there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:08 Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time. We'll have to do more of this.   Scott Hanton ** 1:03:13 Michael, I really enjoyed it. This was a fun conversation. It was stimulating. You asked good questio

The Rod and Greg Show Daily Rundown – Monday, July 28, 20254:20 pm: Senator Kirk Cullimore joins Rod and Greg to discuss his recent piece in the Deseret News about reclaiming the spirit of self-governance.4:38 pm: Jonathan Freedman, Chief Executive Officer of World Trade Center Utah, joins the show to discuss how the trade deal Donald Trump has worked out with the European Union could affect Utah.6:05 pm: Steve Cortes, Founder of the League of American Workers, joins the program for a conversation about his piece for Real Clear Politics in which he writes the real January 6 took place in 2017 when Barack Obama and James Comey tried to trap Donald Trump into a false confession.6:38 pm: Glenn Beaton, a columnist with the Aspen Beat, joins Rod and Greg to discuss his piece about how Democrats define the oppressed and the oppressors.

Send us a textJayne Amelia speaks with Greg Brake, the Executive Director and Co-Founder of Foster Warriors. Greg has built companies including a 200+ person legal & technology team that have handled some of the nation's most critical matters such as the World Trade Center disaster. He created the initial model to determine the value of a life lost in 9/11 and handled numerous regulatory inquiries which include but are not limited to: NYSE & Archipelago, Oracle & Peoplesoft, Harrah's & Ceasars. He built global litigation systems, cyber security, and data breach response and remediation solutions  Greg loves solving complex problems that others don't want to tackle. In 2019, he reached out to his longtime friend and former business partner Chuck Rubac, former US Navy SEAL,  to help him build a program to change foster children's lives and create a positive way forward for great Americans who served this country.  The underlying mission is suicide prevention but Greg and Chuck wanted to focus on the opposite framework of Veterans having a mission and purpose in life to materially change the lives of a forgotten population, foster youth that have aged out of the system. Foster Warriors held its 1st 24-hour challenge in September 2023 and it was a resounding success. Greg most enjoys spending time with his family and coaching youth lacrosse.Foster Warriors - Bringing Navy Seals and their allies together to mentor Foster YouthSee bonusbabies.org to learn more about what we are doing and please donate to support us by making a 100% tax-deductible contribution. EVERY PENNY OF YOUR CONTRIBUTION GOES TO RECORDING AND PLATFORMING THESE STORIES. Yeah!IG@bonusbabiespodcastTW@BonusBabiesPodFB@BonusBabiesPodcast

What happens when a theater director steps into a struggling town and ignites transformation through the power of shared stories?In a world where communities face trauma, disconnection, and invisibility, this episode explores how the ancient impulse to gather and perform stories can foster healing, agency, and real-world change. If you've ever wondered how art can truly make a difference, this conversation reveals what it takes. In this episode we:Learn how ensemble-based, community-driven theater projects have tackled crises like the opioid epidemic and flood response with lasting impact.Hear firsthand how storymaking catalyzes civic empathy and even reshapes local policy, as told by someone who's witnessed communities reclaim power through their own narratives.Discover the 7 principles that guide ethical, effective, and deeply human community arts practice—from agency to accessibility.Press play to experience how Jerry Stropnicky uses theater as a tool for justice, healing, and democracy—and be inspired to see your own community through a new lens.Notable Mentions:Here's a comprehensive list of all people, events, organizations, and publications mentioned in your podcast transcript, each with clickable hyperlinks and a contextual description:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, on a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening or watching unstoppable mindset today, our guest is Angela Lewis, and Angela is going to tell us a lot about basketball. That's because she played she played overseas, she has coached and just any number of things relating to basketball, but she's also helped athletes. She is an author, and I'm not going to say anymore. I'd rather she brag about herself. So Angela, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Angela Lewis ** 02:00 Michael, thank you so much for having me. It's so excited to chat with you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the early Angela growing up and all that.   Angela Lewis ** 02:11 Well, I am six foot one inches tall. I've been this tall since I was 12 years old.   Michael Hingson ** 02:17 Hey, you stopped   Angela Lewis ** 02:18 growing huh? I stopped I've been this tall for 30 years. I know it could have spread out a bit. I could have gotten a few inches a year over, you know, time, but no, I grew really fast and stopped. But at six foot, one and 12 years old, I was really uncomfortable and felt out of place most often. And one day, a coach saw me and asked me to come and play on the basketball team. And Michael, basketball found me. I wasn't looking to play. I wasn't looking for a team, hoping to get an nio deal like you know, my kids are doing these days, because it's available. No basketball found me, and it really helped transform me into the person I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 03:03 How? How? So? Why was that   Angela Lewis ** 03:07 I was really I was very insecure, very uncomfortable. I felt really out of place. And basketball gave me this tribe of people who there were other tall girls. I learned how to work really hard. And although I was tall, people thought I was really good or I should be good. So I learned how to work through like not being really good at something, to ultimately playing professionally. And so that really sticks with me today, and learning how to just persevere.   Michael Hingson ** 03:40 Well you, you did really well at basketball. Obviously, I assume at least part of it had to do with height, but there had to be a whole lot more to it than that. You scored over 1000 points, lots of rebounds and so on. So it had to be more than height, though, right? 100%   Angela Lewis ** 03:57 definitely more than height, because I wasn't being I wasn't very good. I wasn't good at all. I was new to the game when I started, and so I missed a ton of shots. I had to learn how to work hard, how to get back up after being knocked down, and really not feeling good the entire time I'm playing. But learning, you know, listening to coaches, all of that played a big role in my overall development and willingness to get up early and get to the gym when no one else was there. That stuff pays off and   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 practice, yeah. Why is it that some people who score lots of points make really great shots are not necessarily good free throwers,   Angela Lewis ** 04:42 free throws. Shooting great free throws requires a different level of concentration. Everyone everything is stopped, everyone's focused on you, and some of it is just repetition and practice. There are people like Shaq who did shoot great from the free throw line. But of course. Incredibly, incredibly dominant.   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 Yeah. Well, he was one of the ones I was thinking of because it's, you know, I don't, needless to say, play basketball, but it just seems to me it ought to be reasonably easy for people who are great shooters to be able to do great free throwing as well. But that's not the case. And I kind of figured, and I think I've heard from a couple of other people, it's a whole different skill, and just because you're a wonderful shooter, it doesn't necessarily at all mean you'll be a good free thrower.   Angela Lewis ** 05:31 No, no, it doesn't. It doesn't. And Shaq was just a unique human in terms of his size and the size of his hand. So Shaq didn't shoot a lot of jump shots. He was often dunking on people or shooting layups or something a bit closer to the basket, where the percentages are even higher than at the free throw line. So it made it a little a little different in his case,   Michael Hingson ** 05:52 well, and you also and then had other people like wilt, Chamberlain, Kareem, Abdul, Jabbar and so many other people. And now what I really love is that we're starting to see that women are being appreciated. I mean, Caitlin Clark and so many other people are and Paige Becker, right? Who you mentioned earlier, Becker, and that is great to see, and I'm glad that that we're starting to see women come into their own, and I hope that that will include, as time goes on, better compensation, so that salaries are similar with male counterparts, because the people who are excellent at the game on from either Sex deserve it,   Angela Lewis ** 06:40 agreed, and it is. It's incredible, Michael, as you said, to see so much visibility and so much attention on women's sports, I think we hit a perfect storm for the women's game with three things, social media. So now you have these young women who have all these followings, who have all these followers, and it just makes sense for brands to align with them, to sell more products, but then also the n, i, L deal is the perfect storm. Now the players can get paid off their name, image and likeness, and it's going to end. The end the controversy with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and the national championship a few years ago that just created so much of a media frenzy that it really has helped increase the visibility of women's basketball and other women's sports and for that   Michael Hingson ** 07:29 matter, yeah. Now are women will women's basketball, or is women's basketball in the Olympics?   Angela Lewis ** 07:36 Yes, yes, won the gold this year, Yes, yep. Has won the gold. The USA team is one to go. Yeah, consistently,   Michael Hingson ** 07:45 as it should be, we're we're not prejudice, are we?   Angela Lewis ** 07:49 No, not at all. No, not at all, at all. No, definitely not bias. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 07:55 right? Well, tell me, um, so you were tall at a very young age, as it were, but obviously you had, you had insecurities, but you dealt with them. Was it all because of the basketball or what? What really made you comfortable in your skin?   Angela Lewis ** 08:14 I think what made me comfortable is there were, there's who I was on the court, and then there's who I was off the court. My family, I'm so grateful to come from a family that's incredibly supportive. I had older brothers who played so although they would push me, you know, to be tougher, because I wasn't very tough. Michael, I'm the kid that looked at the butterflies and the squirrels. I was like forced to be aggressive and competitive. But my parents, my mom and dad, are both from Mississippi, and they grew up in a really challenging time, and so I think what helped shaped me was the humility and love from family   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 and comparing notes today. Who's the better basketball player, you or your brothers   Angela Lewis ** 09:05 me, by far. Okay, they may say something different, but if you know, if we just look at the stats, statistically speaking, you know what? Definitely win that one. What do they do today? One of them is, one of them is works at both of them work in education. One is like the associate superintendent of a school district in the St Louis area. The other one is a college professor. So they do, they do, well, I'm proud of them.   Michael Hingson ** 09:37 That's cool. Well, you know, but, but you, you, you did have supportive parents, and that's so important. I mean, I know, for for me, my parents rejected all the comments that doctors and others made when they discovered that I was blind and said, I ought to just be sent to a home. And my parents said, Absolutely not. And I totally i. Hmm, thank my parents for their attitudes, because it it really helped shape who I am today and why I'm able to function. So I, I agree with you, and I I'm glad that you had really good, supportive parents, because it had to be unusual for them to see a six foot one girl at the age of 12,   Angela Lewis ** 10:22 it was very unusual. My mom used to have to take my birth certificate with me to tournaments because people didn't believe that I was as young as I was. In addition, you know, I think Michael playing sports and anything that you're involved in doesn't just impact you and impacts your family as well, for those families who who choose to support their kids through whatever. So my family didn't travel at all, and we went to Memphis, Tennessee and Mount Bayou, Mississippi, because we have family members that live there. But it wasn't until I started playing sports where we started going other places. And so things opened up for not only myself, but for my family as well.   Michael Hingson ** 11:06 Well, it's always nice to have the opportunity to stretch and grow and experience new things   Angela Lewis ** 11:13 100% and it's not always comfortable, but it definitely helps us and shapes us differently   Michael Hingson ** 11:23 well, so you were an NCAA division one. You scored a lot of points. You clearly accomplished a great deal. What did you do that helped create the mindset that made that happen?   Angela Lewis ** 11:40 Environment makes a big difference who you choose to listen to. I feel like, when in any organization, whether it's a sports team or a business or even community organization, what created the mindset is listening to those coaches and those people who have already been through it, but also on like, when things are really hard, when there's preseason conditioning, or there's a report that's due, being willing to say, Okay, I know I don't feel like it, but I'm going to do it anyway. And knowing that when you make mistakes, I remember missing the shot to win a game against Cincinnati and being really down about it, but having a coach come to me and say, It's okay, you got to move on to the next game, the next play, being willing to keep going in spite of making mistakes, that creates that unstoppable mindset. It's not just you, it's the people in your circle as well who can help foster that for you.   Michael Hingson ** 12:36 So that's easy for a coach to say, but how did you internalize it and make that really a part of your psyche?   Angela Lewis ** 12:45 One of the ways that I internalized it, that's such a good question. Michael is visualizing like running through the play in my mind? Think watching the game film, because some of it, so much of growth happens. We can reflect on what didn't go right, what went right, and then be able to make those changes for the future.   Michael Hingson ** 13:10 Well, yeah, and I think introspection and internalization is such an important thing, and all too, many of us just don't, don't take that step back to analyze and think about what we're doing and why we're doing it and and how we're doing it, and what can we do better? And clearly, that's something that you did a fair amount of, and you got answers that worked for you.   Angela Lewis ** 13:38 It's essential in sport. I think that's one of the things that I carry over, is we were forced. I can't sit up here and act like I was introspective before, yeah, but by no means, it's you. You learn and train on what what works, and that's one of the things that really works. And introspection is is critical.   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 How would you take that beyond sports? I mean, clearly that helps you in sports, but I would assume that you would say it helps you in life in general, wouldn't you,   Angela Lewis ** 14:09 absolutely, especially when there's conflict. So for example, I had a situation in my family where I will where I essentially just broke down from giving so much, and I realized that, oh, once I once, I was able to step away from the situation and reflect, I was able to see how I could have communicated better. Oh, I could have created some better boundaries, or maybe I could have planned better. So, so there will always be tension. There's always the potential for conflict, but being able to reflect on it to make sure that you get better in the future is kind of how you can apply those apply that same process to life,   Michael Hingson ** 14:53 yeah, so on the basketball court and so on leaving this. Stats out of it. Do you think that people considered you a leader in terms of just being a team leader, as part of the team, but taking the lead? Or did you even think about that?   Angela Lewis ** 15:16 Oh, leadership is one of those, really, it's layered. So I think I was a leader, definitely a leader in terms of how hard I worked and I and I can say that my teammates respected how hard I worked at this age. Looking back at my, you know, 20 year old self, there are some other ways that I think I could have been a better leader in terms of communication, in terms of accountability, holding others accountable more, holding myself accountable more in some areas. So yes, I would say in terms of just the willingness to put in the work, I think I would definitely been considered a leader, despite the number of points that I scored, but scoring the points helped,   Michael Hingson ** 16:00 if you could go back and talk to your 20 year old self, what? What kinds of things would you tell her?   Angela Lewis ** 16:06 I would tell her. I would tell her three things. First, I would say, show yourself some grace. You already work hard like it's okay, it's okay to make mistakes. You are going to make mistakes. I took mistakes really hard. I would also say, get to know as many people as possible at your university and on your team and in the athletic department. What we know later is that relationships are everything, the relationships that you have, so be more intentional about relationships. And then I would also say, give yourself credit, because as an athlete, and you know, when you're pursuing something, you're never good enough, you're always pushing for the next thing. So I would have celebrated some of the wins a bit more.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 Yeah, the the only thing to to be aware of, though, is to be careful and not let that, as you would say, go to your head and become egotistical about it. It's important to do. But there's, it's like the fastest gun in the West. There's always somebody faster,   Angela Lewis ** 17:10 yes, 100%   Michael Hingson ** 17:14 now, where did you go to? College?   Angela Lewis ** 17:16 St Louis University. Oh, okay, Billikens. So what made you go there? I went to St Louis University because it was close to home. That was part of it. There were a Nike school. I'm also like the brand of Nike, and it was a great institution. Academically, still is what is your family to be able communication?   Michael Hingson ** 17:39 Okay, that worked out. Well, yes, since being in office,   17:45 exactly so   Michael Hingson ** 17:49 you did you go beyond your bachelor's degree?   Angela Lewis ** 17:52 I did masters at St Louis University as well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 Okay, communication,   Angela Lewis ** 17:58 so, yes, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 18:00 and then what did you do after college?   Angela Lewis ** 18:04 After college, went to Germany and played basketball professionally. It was my first time traveling internationally and living abroad, which really changed the core of me.   Michael Hingson ** 18:16 Well, why did you decide to go professional for basketball. That's a little different than a degree in communications, but maybe not so much. But why did you, why did you decide to Go Pro? As it were,   Angela Lewis ** 18:30 it's a rare opportunity, very rare opportunity, to play professionally and to have the opportunity as something I dreamed of once I got to college, and then, honestly, Michael, I would have gone anywhere to play basketball. I love the game so much I would have gone anywhere, so I'm grateful that I had the opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 18:51 How did the opportunity to go to Germany and play there come about? Were you approached? What happened?   Angela Lewis ** 18:56 It came about because I was looking for an agent, and one of my college coaches, my college the head coach, Jill pazzi, knew someone who had an agent in Germany, and we sent her my game film. We sent the agent my game film, and she said she wanted to represent me, and she had a team there that wanted me to come out and be on the team. And so after I graduated, it was kind of it was very much a waiting game to win it to a person. And so I was really excited when I found out about the opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 19:37 That's cool. And how did you do compared to to other people on the team and so on? Were you still a high score? Were you still a leader or or not?   Angela Lewis ** 19:52 Michael Germany was really unique, because everyone on my team didn't speak English, so I did well. I. I did well. I scored double digits. Can't remember the exact average, but it was like around 15 or 16 points per game, and I did really well, and was a leader in that way. But it was completely it was a complete cultural shift because of the people from different parts of the world. So it took a different level of navigating than playing. Here.   Michael Hingson ** 20:21 Did you learn German?   Angela Lewis ** 20:24 I Yes, and no little bit yes and no a little bit, Michael, we were part of the contract. Was German classes, and I will never forget, I was in the German class with a woman from Russia who was on my team and a woman from Hungary who was on my team and I, the teacher, asked us to pronounce a word. I can't remember the word. All I remember is I attempted to pronounce the word, and everyone started laughing at me. And it was the first time in my life that I gained the sensitivity for people who attempt to speak another language, because it is really hard. I was so embarrassed, and I was like, Okay, I get it now. So my German is very minimal   Michael Hingson ** 21:11 well, and like a lot of things, if you had started to learn German or any language at a much younger age, you would have probably been a lot better off and more malleable and and learned how to adapt and have that second language, but you weren't learning it after college. So it was a different situation,   Angela Lewis ** 21:33 completely different. You're absolutely right. I did this basketball clinic in monies Columbia a few years ago, and although it was a little different than German, I was able to pick up on Spanish a bit more, and lived in Medellin, Colombia for a few years. But being immersed makes a difference for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 21:54 Yeah, immersion makes a makes a huge difference, because you're you're put in a position where you know you have to learn enough to be able to get by, and you   Angela Lewis ** 22:05 do, yes, well, you said that, I recommend it.   Michael Hingson ** 22:09 You said that going to Germany really changed your total core. How was that?   Angela Lewis ** 22:15 I knew that I would be okay anywhere I was in Germany before there was WhatsApp and zoom, and I was in Germany during the dial up days and the calling card days, yeah. And so being able to navigate the world at a time where you didn't have Google Translate really helped me be comfortable being in uncomfortable settings, because I went to university in the same place that I grew up, so it was my first time away from home in another country, and having to figure it out, and to do that at such a young age, really shifted who I was in relation to where I came from. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:02 so what did it what did it do to you? Ultimately,   Angela Lewis ** 23:07 ultimately, it allowed me to learn how to rely on others, people that I don't know, because I needed help just navigating how to get from one place to another. It created a sense of curiosity of other people, and a food and culture that didn't exist before, and a level of resilience. There were so many things that went wrong, like losing my bags, getting on the wrong train, getting almost being locked up. I mean, so many things that that went left in that experience that has taught me some resilience of having to continue to push through.   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 Yeah, I went to Israel for accessibe Two years ago, this coming August, and was at the corporate headquarters, and then a cab one day took me back to the hotel, but didn't drop me off at the front of the hotel. And so it was a totally strange area. And I remember even questioning, did they really drop me off at the hotel? But I realized that if I calm down, I can analyze this and figure it out, and I figured out what eventually happened. They didn't drop me off at the front of the hotel. They dropped me off at the entrance of the parking lot, which was on the well underground parking garage, which was on the side of the hotel. But the reality is that that we can do a lot of things if we just focus and don't panic.   Angela Lewis ** 24:38 Yes, ah, that's good advice. Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 24:44 go ahead.   Angela Lewis ** 24:46 Oh no, I was just gonna say being able to relax and control your emotional state really helps you make better decisions.   Michael Hingson ** 24:53 It does, and that's what it's really all about, which is also part of what. So being introspective and thinking about what you're doing is so important at night or whenever you can find the time to do it. And should find the time every day people should. But by doing that, you really look at yourself, and you look at how you react to different situations, and you you figure out, Oh, I could have done this. Or if I just did a little bit more of that, I would have been a better situation. We can teach ourselves so many things if we would choose to do that.   25:29 Yes, yes. 100%   Michael Hingson ** 25:33 well, so how long did you play basketball in Germany? I   Angela Lewis ** 25:38 played basketball in Germany for one season, and then came back to St Louis and got married, which is another that's another podcast, that's another interview, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:50 well, I hope that the marriage is working out.   Angela Lewis ** 25:53 No, it didn't. Oh, but I learned some No, it's okay. I brought it up. No, no, it's okay. I brought it up. But I learned so much from that experience as well. So I came back, got married, and started coaching, and I'm coached in high school and college about NCAA division one, and it was just an incredible experience to stay around the game and post the game and then teach and mentor.   Michael Hingson ** 26:19 Well, you clearly bring a pretty strong personality to the whole thing. And I'm, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of guys who wouldn't cope with that very well either   Angela Lewis ** 26:30 you're right. That's fair. Well, you know, since I saw every story, but no, I'm grateful for that experience in so so many ways.   Michael Hingson ** 26:38 Yeah, well, yeah, there's always lots to learn. So, so you coached high school, you coached College Division One, which is cool. So are you still doing some of that? Or what do you do now?   Angela Lewis ** 26:54 Now I'm not coaching on the court anymore, but I work with a company called Speaker hub, and I am head of operations, and so I lead a team of 24 incredible, incredible professionals who live around the world and help more people get on stages and share their messages. So I'm still coaching, but just not on the court.   Michael Hingson ** 27:19 It's not on the court well, but you learned a great skill.   Angela Lewis ** 27:25 Yes, basketball teaches so many, so many   Michael Hingson ** 27:27 skills, and do you still play basketball occasionally?   Angela Lewis ** 27:31 Every now and then I get out there and I get shots up, I don't play five on five anymore. Yes, I don't train to play and I just don't want to get hurt like a big fear of mine. So I'll still go out there and shoot, and I love it. I'll play course against anybody.   Michael Hingson ** 27:48 Well, yeah, there's, yeah there. There's a whole lot to it. And you're not working on being well in tip top training, in that way like you used to be, which is okay, but you know what you're doing, and that's what really matters. Well, you've coached a lot of people. What lessons did you learn from doing that? And what lessons did you learn from some of the people you coached?   Angela Lewis ** 28:13 From coaching, I've learned that you have to listen. Listening is the most important part of actually coaching, because different people need to be coached in a different way. Everyone gets held accountable, but some people may need more one on one attention. Some people may need more direct communication. Other people may just need you to listen to them and and guide them a bit more. So that's that's what I've learned about coaching, what I've learned from people that I've coached, I would say the there's someone I work with now, Maria. She's our head designer, and she she needs direct feedback about the work that she's doing, more than maybe some other people, feedback is important, but depending on who a person is, they need more feedback and guidance. And so Maria is someone who really loves that direct feedback, whereas some others are are able to work a bit differently. So knowing how to give feedback is something that I've worked on, and that, you know, Michael is learning coaching, coaching. It's always learning. Not only are you helping others, but you're learning from them and their expertise as well.   Michael Hingson ** 29:33 Do you find that there are some people who really ought to get feedback, who just refuse to accept it or refuse to listen to it at all, even though they probably really should.   Angela Lewis ** 29:45 There are some. There are some. When I, when I was coaching college basketball, there were definitely players who just didn't want to hear it, or they thought they had it all figured out. Yeah, so that part is hard in the workplace is a little different because, you know, there's. Compensation associated with performance. But back then, when I coached, it was a little Yeah, there were definitely some kids with egos,   Michael Hingson ** 30:08 yeah, and even with compensation and so on, feedback can help people improve, if they would, but listen,   Angela Lewis ** 30:17 true, very, very true. Thankfully, we have a great team. Everyone's pretty open.   Michael Hingson ** 30:22 That's good. Tell me more about speaker hub?   Angela Lewis ** 30:26 Sure, sure. So we have, we are a speakers bureau where everyone reaches out and pitches to different organizations on their own. So we have a membership where people will get access to over 4 million contacts. We have conferences associations. We have podcasts as well as media outlets where people can pitch and really reach out to share their expertise and about their businesses and grow their business through using public speaking to grow their business. Mm, so we we have a platform that we update literally every week that has the contacts and are able to reach out to search and reach out to people directly inside of our platform.   Michael Hingson ** 31:20 What do you think about this whole concept, since we're on the subject of speaking, of public speaking is one of the biggest fears that people have in this country and probably all over the world. How do we deal with getting rid of that fear? Why do we have it in the first place? I've never had it. I've never been afraid to speak, and sometimes I may not be the first person to speak, but I've never been afraid to speak my mind or to go out and speak. In fact, one of my favorite stories is that after September 11, my first official speech, if you will, came about because a pastor of a church called in New Jersey, and he said, we're going to be doing a service for all the people from New Jersey who were lost on September 11. Would you come and take about five or six minutes and tell your story? And I said, Sure, I'd be happy to, because we were living in New Jersey still at the time. And then I asked, how many people are going to be coming to the to the service, he said, oh, about 6000 so that was my first official public speech. As such, I was used to speaking in a variety of environments, because I had spoken to anything from company boards to IT professionals, and also did speaking at church and so on. But still, 6000 would intimidate a lot of people. It did bother me a bit to do that.   Angela Lewis ** 32:45 That says a lot about about you and your willingness to to share. I think some people are more comfortable, naturally comfortable to your point, others are. It's afraid of judgment. Fear of judgment is real. Fear of having everyone looking at you and hearing you and questioning your your your abilities, is something that people are are really afraid of.   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 So I think it's no go ahead.   Angela Lewis ** 33:17 I think it's something that people can develop more comfortable with with practice that can help, and also getting feedback and practicing in settings that are less than 6000 and gradually working their way up. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:33 I think, I think, though, least in my opinion, unless you're just a really scroungy individual and so on. Audiences, when you go to speak somewhere, want you to succeed. They want to hear what you have to say, and unless you just can't relate at all, audiences want you to be successful. And I've always had that belief. So that's probably another reason that I have never really been afraid to go out and speak, but after that 6000 person event, I still wasn't thinking of becoming a public speaker, but we started getting so many phone calls, as my wife and I both love to start to say, selling life and philosophy is a whole lot more fun than selling computer hardware and managing a hardware sales team. So by the beginning of 2002 it was clear that that a different window was opening and another door was closing, and it was time to go do something different. And so I've been speaking ever since, and it's it is so much fun to go to places. I've been to to places where event managers have hired me. People within the company have hired me to come and speak. And it turns out, as we talk more when I'm there, they're they were just so nervous, oh, is it going to go well? Is he going to be successful? Is this whole thing going to go well? And one of the things that several of those people have done is they've assumed. Interested me when we sell books afterward, I always like to have somebody who can handle the credit card machine, because I sign books and I brought my little credit card thing. So other people actually do that. And so some of the event, people have just stayed with me. And people come up and they say, what a wonderful talk. It's the best talk we ever heard. So it makes people feel comfortable. But those event people are often times much more nervous than I am, because, because I just feel nervous.   Angela Lewis ** 35:29 I love what you said, Michael, you believe that they want you to do well. And belief is such a powerful part of our lives. What what we believe, makes such a difference. And so the fact that you believe it and and you've done it so much, it brings ease, I'm sure, to some of the event planners over time, because they know that you're going to do well. One   Michael Hingson ** 35:51 of the things that I've learned is that I don't do well at reading speeches for a lot of reasons. The the main one is I like I've found that I do better when I customize the talk, and I'm able to use customization sometimes even right up to in the in the beginning of a speech, customizing it to get the audience to react as I expect them to and when. And I can tell when an audience is reacting positively or is is liking what they're hearing, just by the the subtle movements and the subtle noises that I hear around the the room, and if I'm not hearing some of those things that I expect to hear, then I will change something to address the issue, because I believe that when I go to speak, my job is to relate to the audience, to talk with the audience, not to the audience, and to do everything that I can to draw them in. And so one of the things that that I now tell people is being involved with the World Trade Center, and now we have a whole generation that that has had no experience with it. My job is to take them into the building with me and take them down the stairs with me and get them out with me, as if they were there. And people come up and say, later, we were with you all the way down the stairs, which is so cool.   Angela Lewis ** 37:16 That is That is really cool too. It sounds like you really care about your audience, which is something that makes a difference in terms of someone's comfort, if they think, Oh, this is a this speech is and I'm talking about, Oh, me, but you're carrying people along with you and actually helping them through your storytelling, which makes a difference.   Michael Hingson ** 37:39 Oh, it does make a difference. But I and you said something very, very relevant. It is all about telling stories. And I wish more people would tell stories. I believe, and I believe for years, having gotten a master's degree in physics, that one of the big problems with physics textbooks is they're so dry, they just do all the math and all that sort of stuff. If the authors, who are oftentimes very famous physicists would include a few stories in their books. There would be much better textbooks, and they would attract much more interest from people. But getting people to tell stories is just so hard.   Angela Lewis ** 38:13 Why do you think that is   Michael Hingson ** 38:16 they don't know how they don't necessarily realize that telling stories is a very powerful way to teach. It's just not what they're used to, and they're not enough of us talking about it probably   Angela Lewis ** 38:29 agree. 100% 100% we've we've been talking our whole lives, but telling stories and communicating in a way that connects with others isn't something that comes naturally for most. It takes practice. It   Michael Hingson ** 38:43 takes practice. So it does I believe that the best salespeople in the world are people who tell stories, because when you're talking about a product, but let's say it's a it's a product that a customer really should have, if you can relate to them and with them by telling stories of successes with other companies, or how other companies have used it, or other things that you can determine are the kinds of things that would be interesting to whoever you're selling to, you have a much better chance to actually be successful and Make make the sale that you want to make.   Angela Lewis ** 39:22 Yes, absolutely, we've all heard Yeah, Oh, nope, sorry, you go   Michael Hingson ** 39:27 ahead. No, it's just insane, which is another way of saying, sales is all about storytelling. But go ahead.   Angela Lewis ** 39:34 I was just gonna agree. I'm just agreeing with you on that. If we can get people to really understand and put themselves in in the situation, it makes a difference in their ability to to feel like you understand them and that you can connect and relate,   Michael Hingson ** 39:51 right? And that's what you got to do, and it can be a very positive tool if you do. It right? And not everybody will tell stories in exactly the same way, but that's okay, but you still can learn how to tell stories so that whoever you're talking with can relate to it, and that's what it's about.   Angela Lewis ** 40:13 It absolutely, yeah, absolutely is.   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 Well, so how did you get involved with Speaker hub?   Angela Lewis ** 40:21 I got involved with Speaker hub because I had a PR agency a few years ago, and I was our agency was helping people get on stages, but we were kind of but an agency where we did the pitching for our customers, and we and I built a team and hired people and put systems and processes in place, and the owner of speaker hub asked if our team could basically merge with the company. We weren't speaker hub before the company was called Pitch dB, and we and I built an agency using the software of pitch dB, and our agency was asked to basically merge, because we have the team, we have the operations, and he was great at marketing, is great at marketing and sales. And so our team rolled into this other company. So and then we purchased speaker hub, about eight months later, and so speaker hub, so our team helped grow speaker hub,   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 and how many clients does speaker hub have today?   Angela Lewis ** 41:32 We have over 60,000 people that use our platform. And so speaker hub asked, when we acquired speaker hub, there was Speaker hub was only a speaker page. So for example, Michael like LinkedIn, you can sign up, you can create a profile, and it has all of your information around your speaking topics, your background, your bio. And then we added the this software that allows people to reach out to different organizations, conferences and associations and media outlets. And so over 60,000 profiles are on speaker, hub of speakers from around the world. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 42:14 And people find it useful, and it's been very successful for them to find engagements and speak.   Angela Lewis ** 42:21 Yes. Yes. There are two amazing things that have happened today. We have customer calls every single day at noon Eastern where people can hop on and learn. We had someone who is an event organizer who came on the call today to let us know about an event that he has coming up, that he's looking for speakers. So there's the organizer side, where organizers are looking and then there's the other side where people are actually pitching and reaching out. So people are getting books. Someone told us today that she got booked for a conference in Kenya, and they're going to all expenses paid to Kenya for her to come out and speak at this conference. So it's wonderful to see people   Michael Hingson ** 43:05 opportunities. Yeah, that's exciting to see that kind of thing happening. Well, you have also written books. Tell me about Tell me about your books.   Angela Lewis ** 43:17 My first book is called The Game Changing assist simple ways to choose success. This book uses the framework of the six vs for success, having a vision, choosing your voices that you listen to, understanding the values to get to that vision, how to make it out of the valley, reaching the point of victory and volunteering. And so that book really takes is for young women to take them on a journey through my experiences, to learn about how to accomplish their goals in life using those six principles.   Michael Hingson ** 43:55 And even though it was written with young women in in mind, just on principle, out of curiosity, do you find that men read it as   Angela Lewis ** 44:03 well? Yes, it's applicable for everyone. At that the time I wrote the book, I was doing a lot of coaching and training young women and running girls groups. So that's why that that group of people was the target. But absolutely, those principles can transfer to anyone.   Michael Hingson ** 44:23 That's cool. So when did you write that one? When was that one?   Angela Lewis ** 44:27 It was released in 2013   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 Oh, okay, then what?   Angela Lewis ** 44:32 Then? Post moves the female athlete's guide to dominate life after college. That book is about mentoring, a lot of success in life for everyone, and is really built on mentoring and having great mentors. When I was a college athlete, the only professionals I knew were my coaches and my professors, and so that book, in that book, I. Interviewed 15 women who all play college sports, who are all doing various things professionally, and the goal was for them to be able to learn about different careers, professions and leadership from women who weren't in their shoes. So that book was really powerful, because it wasn't just my story, it was others as well, which   Michael Hingson ** 45:21 is great. When did that book come out? 2016 okay? And then,   Angela Lewis ** 45:27 yes. And then there, there's a workbook that goes along with my first book, The Game Changing assist. And so that's, that's where we are right now with publications. But I'm working on some I'm working on another one right now, kind of the lessons I've learned over the past decade from from those books. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 45:48 so very excited about that. When will that one be out?   Angela Lewis ** 45:50 It'll be out this summer. The release date isn't set yet, but it'll be this summer cool.   Michael Hingson ** 45:58 And so you're to talk about all the lessons that you've learned and all the things that have happened and, oh, boy, I'll bet you'll have a lot to say about the pandemic in that one.   Angela Lewis ** 46:06 Oh, the pandemic changed so much for all of us. Yes, that that book is called, tentatively named, um, keep bouncing forward. How to stay confident when life knocks you off your game? Mm, what I've learned the past decade life will knock you off your game, and things don't always turn out the way that you think they will, and you get thrown some curveballs. So try to help my younger self and some and other other people learn. You know, how do you keep going in the midst of challenging times? Yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 there, there are a lot of times that we get thrown curveballs, and we didn't have any control over the curve balls coming necessarily, but it's like anything else. How do we deal with them? And that's what's really important. Do we do we analyze them? Do we find out whether it's a really valuable curveball that we can still hit out of the park if we're going to use another sports analogy, or or what, but we we do need to recognize that things happen, and it's always going to be a question of how we deal with it,   Angela Lewis ** 47:14 always, and it's the only thing we can control. We can't control other people. We can't control the overall situation that we can't control the weather. I mean, there's so many things that we just must most that we can't control. So navigating that and understanding that you still have a choice of a response in the midst of is the overall theme, if we can learn. It's really three parts. It's about learning in the midst of the challenge growing, which comes out of the learning of new things and being stretched and then giving. How do we give to others after we've gone through and and have gained wisdom from it?   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, yeah, one of the things I've said ever since September 11, basically, is that we need to not worry about the things that we can't control. We had no control over September 11 happening, and I've never seen evidence to prove to me that that we could have figured it out, even if all the various departments in the United States government were cooperating with each other. I think that the reality is that the lesson we should learn about teamwork is that a team of 19 terrorists kept their mouth shut and made happen what we all experienced. So we didn't have control over that, but we absolutely have control over how we respond to it and how we deal with it internally, for us,   Angela Lewis ** 48:40 yes, 100% I mean, that was definitely, I mean, forever memorable and very tragic, and that's all we that's all we can control. And the environments that we're around. Who do we listen to in the most difficult times? How do we get back centered when we go through those difficult situations and continue to move forward, because we can't stop. I think, you know, Michael, when difficult things happen, oftentimes we want to, like, shut it all down, but you just can't stop forever. Have to keep going   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 well, and a corollary to that is that we need to always keep learning. I think the people, I think you mentioned it earlier, who say, Well, I already know all this. I don't need to learn anymore. They're the they're the scariest of all, because those are the people that are going to always be left by the wayside.   Angela Lewis ** 49:30 And given this rate of change of technology and the rate of change of things, learning has to be our top priority, because things are always changing. You don't want to be left behind. What do you think of   Michael Hingson ** 49:45 the the the things that we keep hearing in in schools with the advent of AI and chat GPT, the whole issue of students using chat GPT to write their papers and so on, and. What a bad thing that is. As   Angela Lewis ** 50:01 a non parent, I always preface this with anything that has to do with schools and kids. Always say, as a non parent, as an auntie, well, in the business where we use chat GPT all the time, we use it as a tool, yep. And so I think if we don't allow kids to use the tools, then they're going to be left behind. But we can teach them how to use tools wisely and how to fact check to make sure that what they're saying is that the tools are used in their voice and and used in a way that helps them become better at whatever they're doing. But we can't not use it. So I don't have the exact answer, but I think not using it is dangerous as well. Can be dangerous as well. Well, we've talked about this is not, yeah, go ahead. No, I was just going to say it's not going anywhere.   Michael Hingson ** 50:57 We've talked about fear of public speaking and so on. One of the things that I've advocated ever since I first learned about chat GPT and how teachers are complaining that too many students are just letting chat GPT write their papers. My position is, let them let chat GPT do it. The teachers need to adapt and that, I don't mean that in a cold hearted way, but the best thing to do is you can really find out how well students have learned the material or not by if you assign a paper and everybody writes a paper and then turns it in, then take a class period and let everyone have one minute, or a minute and a half to come up and defend their paper, turn the paper in, and defend and then defend the paper, because you're going to see very quickly who just let some system write their paper, or who maybe use the system, but really still wrote the paper themselves and really understands the concepts, and that's what it's really about. And I know that I've seen that even much earlier than chat GPT, I had a physics professor who was in charge of developing the PhD qualifying exam for classical mechanics one year for those people who wanted to become and get get PhDs in physics, and more people failed his exam than anyone else had ever experienced. And the powers that be called him in and were chastising him, and he said, Wait a minute. You don't get it. He said, Look at this paper. This is the exam I give to all of my freshmen in classical mechanics. And here's the exam that we use for the PhD qualifying exam. The only difference between the two was that both had 16 questions that were conceptual, not mathematical in nature, but the PhD qualifying exam had four questions that were clearly solving mathematical equations, Lagrangian dynamics and so on. And the thing that people messed up on were not the four mathematical things, but all the concepts, because physics people spend so much time dealing with the math rather than focusing on the concepts that people never really got them. And the result was that people messed up on the concepts, although they got the math part his test was the same one that his freshman students got. It really kind of quieted them all down. Quieted all the powers down, because they realized, oh, maybe he's not the problem, which is so true.   Angela Lewis ** 53:45 You know you're Oh, nope, no, go ahead. No, I think you're right. I think educators will have to find a way to to ensure that students are still learning while using the technology that exists, yeah, I think that   Michael Hingson ** 54:07 it's a paradigm shift, and chat GPT is creating this paradigm shift, and now what we need to do is to recognize the value of of what it brings. I've written articles, and I use chat GPT when I write articles, but I will look at the ideas that it provides and it and it comes up with things I hadn't thought of, which is fine, and I will include them, but I'm still the one that ultimately writes the articles, and it needs to be that way. And I don't care how good chat GPT gets, it can be the most perfect thing, but it still isn't me, and it never will be,   Angela Lewis ** 54:43 and that ties back into the storytelling. Chat GPT can't tell our stories of our lives. It can't create the experiences that we've had. It can't recreate our experiences. So even in using chat GPT or any any AI software to help write. And we still have to be able to speak authentically to our lived experience, and it can never replace that. It can never replace you. It can never replace our experiences and the impact those experiences can have for others.   Michael Hingson ** 55:14 And that is so true. So for you, we're doing this podcast called unstoppable mindset. What does unstoppable mindset mean to you, and how do you bring it out and make it a part of everything that you do in every day and in your whole life?   Angela Lewis ** 55:32 Unstoppable mindset, to me, means getting knocked down and being willing to get back up and get knocked down again, and being willing to get back up, and more importantly, believing that you can get back up. You're going to miss, to use the sports analogies, you're going to miss shots. You're going to not win every you're not going to win every game, and you're not going to play well every night, every day. Won't be perfect, but if you're willing to keep moving forward and keep pushing forward, then you still have an opportunity to one inspire others, but also to get to your goals, whatever they may be.   Michael Hingson ** 56:08 And the reality is, the more of it you do, the better you'll become. And maybe it'll get to the point where you won't miss any shots and you'll just be perfect, and that's okay, too, as long as you recognize where it came from and why you've been able to attain so well.   Angela Lewis ** 56:26 Yes, yes. And sometimes, Michael, you know, our mindset, looking at others journeys, can help us as well. And it can. It's like, okay, if they can do it, I can do it if, if my parents can. You know, my mom grew up in Mississippi and literally picked cotton. I mean, my mom's 83 years old, and so to be able to see what she's gone through, and for her to have the mindset, to be able to push through and to continue to have faith, well, then I can too. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:57 and that's and that's as it should be.   Angela Lewis ** 57:01 Yes, we can lean on those stories of mentors or others who've been through challenging situations and use that to crystallize an unstoppable mindset within us as well.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 And I think that's as good as it gets. And so with that, we've been doing this just about an hour. I think it's time to go off and let you go off. And I don't know whether you've had dinner yet or not, but I haven't, and I know dinner is going to be coming. But more important than that, we've been talking for a while. I don't want to bore people, but I want to thank you for being here, and I want to really tell you how much I appreciate all the the words of wisdom that you have given us and all the things that you've had to say, it's been wonderful, and I want to thank all of you for being with us today. I hope that you've come away with a better commitment to a better understanding of and a better resolve to be more unstoppable than you thought you were. So thank you for all of you for being here and being a part of this. Love to hear what you think, Angela, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Angela Lewis ** 58:09 If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn, Angela R Lewis on LinkedIn, or you can reach out to me on Instagram. The Angela R Lewis, Michael, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 58:23 Well, it's been fun, and I again, want to thank you all, and I'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me at Michael H i@accessibe.com that's Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n, so Thanks all for for being here. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or hearing our podcast today. We love it. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, Angela for you as well. Please introduce us. We're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories, because I think everyone has a story, and my goal is to give people the opportunity to tell them and inspire the rest of us. So please come on and don't hesitate any of you to introduce us to people who we ought to have on. So again. Angela, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you, Michael. You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this episode of The Crux True Survival Story Podcast, hosts Kaycee McIntosh and Julie Henningsen explore the harrowing survival stories from the South Tower during the 9/11 attacks. When United Airlines Flight 175 struck between floors 77-85, only one stairwell remained intact - Stairwell A. Faced with conflicting information and impossible choices, 18 people made the critical decision that saved their lives. The episode follows the remarkable stories of Brian Clark, who risked his own escape to save a trapped stranger, and Stanley Praimnath, who survived the plane's wing slicing through his office.  Kaycee and Julie examine how split-second decisions, leadership under pressure, and trusting your instincts can mean the difference between life and death. A powerful reminder that in our darkest moments, the choices we make and the compassion we show can change everything. 00:00 Welcome to the Crux True Survival Story Podcast 00:28 The Harrowing Tale of Stairwell A 02:01 Brian Clark: A Leader in Crisis 02:57 The Twin Towers: Engineering Marvels and Vulnerabilities 03:53 The First Impact: North Tower Hit 05:05 A Fatal Announcement in the South Tower 07:22 The Second Impact: South Tower Hit 12:13 The Critical Decision: Up or Down? 15:40 A Miraculous Rescue Amidst Chaos 18:37 Brian and Stanley's Harrowing Escape 19:43 Ron DCO's Fateful Decision 21:18 The Descent Through Stairwell A 24:04 Reaching the Ground Floor 26:10 The Collapse of the South Tower 27:37 Ron De Francesco's Miraculous Survival 29:34 The Aftermath and Psychological Impact 32:37 Lessons Learned from 9/11 35:20 The Power of Human Connection 37:36 Reflections and Final Thoughts   Email us! thecruxsurvival@gmail.com Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thecruxpodcast/ Get schooled by Julie in outdoor wilderness medicine! https://www.headwatersfieldmedicine.com/ References for Stairwell A Episode Primary Survivor Accounts Brian Clark (September 11 survivor) - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Clark_(September_11_survivor) Detailed account of Clark's escape, the 81st floor decision point, and rescue of Stanley Praimnath Stanley Praimnath - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Praimnath Account of seeing Flight 175 approaching, diving under desk, and rescue by Brian Clark Canadian last known person to escape World Trade Center on 9/11 - TBNewsWatch.com https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/canadian-last-known-person-to-escape-world-trade-center-on-911-8660497 Ron DiFrancesco's story as the last person to escape the South Tower Final survivor of south tower collapse struggles with scars of 9/11 - Yahoo News https://www.yahoo.com/news/final-survivor-of-south-tower-collapse-struggles-with-scars-of-9-11.html Ron DiFrancesco's post-9/11 trauma and recovery Official Documentation & Reports 9/11 Commission Report/Chapter 9 - Wikisource https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report/Chapter_9 Official government analysis of evacuations and emergency response Casualties of the September 11 attacks - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_September_11_attacks Comprehensive data on casualties, survivors, and evacuation details A timeline of the tragic events that unfolded on Sept 11, 2001 - Fox News https://www.foxnews.com/us/september-11-2001-timeline-events Includes exact wording of "Building Two is secure" announcement Theta Chi Remembers: 9/11 Timeline https://www.thetachi.org/9-11-timeline Detailed timeline with specific announcement times and wording Aircraft and Technical Details United Airlines Flight 175 - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_175 Boeing 767 specifications, fuel capacity, impact speed, and hijacker details Collapse of the World Trade Center - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center Technical details of impact zones, stairwell damage, and building collapse Boeing 767 - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767 Aircraft specifications and technical details Building Construction & Design Construction of the World Trade Center - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_World_Trade_Center Tube-frame construction details, structural design, and stairwell layout How was the construction of the World Trade Center unique? - HowStuffWorks https://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique.htm "Tube within a tube" design explanation and structural innovations World Trade Center (1973–2001) - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_(1973–2001) Comprehensive building specifications, including 236 perimeter columns and 47 core columns The World Trade Center's Construction: 8 Surprising Facts - HISTORY https://www.history.com/articles/world-trade-center-twin-towers-construction-facts Revolutionary structural design and construction innovations Evacuation Analysis How the Design of the World Trade Center Claimed Lives on 9/11 - HISTORY https://www.history.com/articles/world-trade-center-stairwell-design-9-11 Analysis of stairwell design, evacuation challenges, and Stairwell A survival September 11: Escaping the South Tower and a Framework of Surviving an Infrastructure Disaster - HS Today https://www.hstoday.us/featured/september-11-escaping-the-south-tower-and-a-framework-of-surviving-an-infrastructure-disaster/ Kevin Dorrian's escape account and survival analysis 14 individuals survived the collapse of the north tower by taking shelter in Stairwell B - Fox News https://www.foxnews.com/us/stairwell-b-story-14-survivors-north-tower-9-11 Context on North Tower Stairwell B survivors for comparison Emergency Response & Aftermath Surviving in stairwell B: A Port Authority officer's story - Police1 https://www.police1.com/september-11/articles/surviving-in-stairwell-b-a-port-authority-officers-story-of-survival-after-steel-concrete-came-crashing-down-on-him-during-the-world-trade-centers-north-tower-collapse-WZGuq2qQBiN5HV1u/ Emergency responder perspective and rescue operations Timeline for United Airlines Flight 175 - NPR https://www.npr.org/2004/06/17/1962517/timeline-for-united-airlines-flight-175 Official timeline of Flight 175 hijacking and impact Documentaries Referenced BBC docudrama "9/11: The Twin Towers" (2006) Featured Brian Clark and Stanley Praimnath's story National Geographic "9/11: One Day in America" (2021) Documentary featuring multiple survivor accounts "United by 9/11" (2006) Documentary chronicling various survivor stories

Thomas Young is the President and CEO of the World Trade Center of Greater Philadelphia, a non-profit focused on helping local businesses thrive on the international stage. Young's current career follows an impressive run playing basketball. He was a star at Plymouth-Whitemarsh High School - he is still the leading scorer in the history of the boys program. In college he started at UMBC, then transferred to IUP, where he led the Crimson Hawks to the Division II National Championship game as a senior. In Episode #262 of "1-on-1 with Matt Leon," Matt welcomes Young In studio to talk about his career. They discuss his current role with the World Trade Center of Greater Philadelphia, look back at his playing days, talk about the impact his mom had on his basketball career and much more. “1-on-1 with Matt Leon” is a KYW Newsradio original podcast. You can follow the show on X @1on1pod and you can follow Matt @Mattleon1060.

[The Festival Project ™ ] Look, I've got some… time. How much time we talking? Enough. Alright, what's that make us? A deal. Alright. But you have to be quiet about it. Body is a minimum concern But accolades, achievements, Education— If you want to know, A billion's the goal— There's a goldmine full of pretty, perfect women But what are you worth, And where is your value What are you, earth, sir? Where are your manners, and What are your limits, And who are your partners— The son is the prize, And the reward, A daughter Now what are you on? I still don't know what you're on about. The show of the shelf life is done, And finally, All the hazards are uncrossed You know what you've done And you know what to do And you know who you are And you know what you want So the time for the gripping Has come down upon us The seams that are ripping Are nothing short of humongous How's that for a tadpole to a whole frog!? Watch it, turtle monster Before I put you down to run, And forgot what I had before Besides a gun And a habit to write And a real dark home And indeed, the words were also dark But written golden Golden shark Upon a park bench Put you back but don't you know To take a flash drive from a DJ Is much like Stealing a surfer's wetsuit It just like, Bad karma, man It's bad karma, Mark . I wrote— a passbook— where is it? You wrote— what? Where is it? Mi wrote it! Where is it? Wrote what? I wrote everything! I don't remember writing any [passbook] I'm a writer! A writer?! Oh, come on, Jimmy! Don't “Jimmy” me! You're starting to sound like… Wait a minute. Ah. Tina?! Don't be angry! Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh! I knew It! You didn't know anything, you were yelling at me like I'm that old lady! You are that old lady! *hugely gasps* DREW BARRYMORE Oh, you are so exorbitantly fucked. Where is she?! You have a— habit of always asking me these things before I really know the answer lately. Where's the scribe!? Is that who she is? You are supposed to be my predecessor! Stop being angry! I'm—very upset— And let go of me. This is aging me. Rapidly. Yay. Listen, I don't know what the fuck I said but— I need a liaison. For what exactly. Anything, apparently. Oh shit. The crazy thing about this one is— Yo Tina Fey is an almost elitist sort of shapeshifter. She's so sub —fuck. [—bliminal with it.] Someone keeps interfering with my signal. They can do that. They can broadcast Saturday night live to the entire world from the top of the World Trade Center, they can do anything. That's perfect— telemetry! Or just— telepathy. In a not so far dimension for continuity piurposes. J.Pierpoint Morgan— No, not yet, Oh okay. THE STRIKE FORCE FIVE have gathered in an office with a collection of other HOSTS. JIMMY FALLON sits leaned back on the couch in an unassuming hoodie, with the hood pulled over his face. He seems younger than usual, and somewhat bored. I knew his hair wasn't falling out anytime soon— —damn those genetics— So still I slowly but carefully salt and peppered each and every streaking strand that sprung forth from his wisdom. Hahaha! Yo. Crazy. Somebody needs to kill this bitch. It's too late. She can't be stopped! No! What! Crazy. She's… too powerful. I agree. I sort of accepted the relative silence in my apartment as if they'd gotten what they wanted— seeing Aliocha's number over and over as a way to succumb eventually to my inherent death— and at least then there would be peace. As it were, I was enjoying my time reading the New Testament Psalms above any of my other reading materials, which included a book on music business and even a portfolio of festival stages; this seemed of no mere coincidence, but as if of course the books were placed in my path within time that i'd find them returning from my radio show–and I did. But more fascinating than any book on the music business, or seduction, or the laws of human nature, or the art of war, was a hotel copy of the new testament, to which I took an immediate liking, with the understanding of this religious texts translations that I supposed writing almost seemingly endlesslessly myself had simplified. It seemed less boring than the last time I'd read it–and then again, the last time i'd read it, it wasn't as deliberately poignant as it sat now in the palm of my hands. I spent more time with it than the other books, although I loved Robert Greene, and even though i'd had the art of seduction on repeat by way of audio book, reading it through now seemed almost disturbing in nature, because on so many levels, there wasn't a time in my life where I could think to that this art didn't apply. Indeed, I was a true romantic, and then had in a way obliged myself to be seduced over and over, if not for the sake of the art. But now, in my own actual sexual prime, despite my cellibacy, nearly leaking the fluidity of sexuality with me wherever I went no matter how hard I tried to mask it …whether anyone wanted to admit it or not, and actually, more often than not I did notice t[o]— To what?! Idk, it just ends. UGHHHHHH. {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project™ ] {Enter The Multiverse} L E G E N D S: ICONS Tales of A Superstar DJ The Secret Life of Sunnï Blū Ascension Deathwish -Ū. Copyright © The Festival Project, Inc. ™ | Copyright The Complex Collective © 2019-2025 ™ All Rights Reserved. -Ū.

In this gripping and emotional episode, Will Jimeno, a Port Authority police officer and 9/11 survivor, shares the harrowing reality of being trapped beneath the rubble of the World Trade Center. Will opens up about the mental health battle that followed his survival, including his long journey with PTSD, survivor's guilt, and the power of family support. He explains how finding purpose in telling his story has helped him—and countless others—cope, heal, and find strength. His message is one of hope, resilience, and purpose.

An Egyptian engineer, a Hispanic Navy Seal, and an Italian construction manager walk into a building. It sounds like the beginning of a joke, but it’s the beginning of real-life heroism. The building was the World Trade Center’s North Tower and Father Mark Hanna is the only one of the 3 amigos to survive 9/11.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

An Egyptian engineer, a Hispanic Navy Seal, and an Italian construction manager walk into a building. It sounds like the beginning of a joke, but it’s the beginning of real-life heroism. The building was the World Trade Center’s North Tower and Father Mark Hanna is the only one of the 3 amigos to survive 9/11.Support the show: https://www.normalfolks.us/premiumSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sometime ago I had the pleasure to have as a guest a gentleman named Rob Wentz. Rob appeared in episode 212 on March 8, 2024. Recently Rob introduced me to a man he described as amazing and definitely unstoppable. That introduction led to me having the opportunity to have today, Ken Kunken, the man Rob introduced me to. Ken's story is atypical to most. He had a pretty normal childhood until he went to Cornell. Rob was pretty short, but he loved all things sports and active. In his junior year he participated in a lightweight football game against Columbia University. On a kickoff he tackled an opponent but broke his neck in the process. Immediately he became a quadriplegic from the shoulders down. As he tells us, his days of physical activity and sports came to an abrupt end.   I asked Ken how he dealt with his injury. As he tells me, his family rallied around him and told him they were all there to help with whatever he needed to continue in school and to move on with his life. They were true to their word and Ken did continue to attend school after nine months of hospitalization. He secured a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering. He went on to get a Master's degree from Cornell in Industrial Engineering and then a second Master's degree this time from Columbia University in Psychology as he decided he really wanted to “help people especially those with serious disabilities” rather than continuing in the Civil Engineering arena. Ken then secured a job that led to him becoming a successful rehabilitation counselor in New York.   Ken wasn't done growing nor exploring. After two years working in the rehabilitation field through circumstances and advice from others, he went to Hofstra school of law where he obtained a Juris Doctor degree in 1982. He then went to work in the office of a district attorney where, over 40 years he progressed and grew in stature and rank.   Ken tells us how his life changed over time and through the many jobs and opportunities he decided to take. Twenty-two years ago, he married Anna. They ended up having triplet boys who now all are in school at the age of Twenty.   Ken is as unstoppable as it gets. He refused to back down from challenges. He is now retired and loving the opportunity to be with his family and help others by telling his story.     About the Guest:   In 1970, while a junior in Cornell University's College of Engineering, Ken Kunken broke his neck making a tackle on a kick-off in a lightweight football game against Columbia University. Ken sustained a spinal cord injury at the C 4-5 level, rendering him a quadriplegic, almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down. Ken spent more than 9 months in various hospitals and rehabilitation facilities. While still a patient, Ken testified before a United States Senate Sub-Committee on Health Care, chaired by Senator Edward Kennedy. In 1971, almost 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act, Ken returned to the Cornell campus, where he completed his undergraduate degree in Industrial Engineering. Ken estimates that he had to be pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend his first day of classes.   Ken is the first quadriplegic to graduate from Cornell University. Upon graduation, Ken decided to change his career goal. He wanted to work with and help people, particularly those with disabilities. Ken went on to earn a Master of Arts degree at Cornell in education and a Master of Education degree at Columbia University in psychology. Ken is the first quadriplegic to earn a graduate degree from Cornell University. In 1977, Ken was hired by Abilities Inc. in Albertson, NY to be its College Work Orientation Program Coordinator. Ken coordinated a program which provided educationally related work experiences for severely disabled college students. He also maintained a vocational counseling caseload of more than 20 severely disabled individuals.   While working at the Center, Ken became a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor and made numerous public presentations on non-discrimination, affirmative action and employment of the disabled. In 1977, Ken was named the Long Island Rehabilitation Associations “Rehabilitant of the Year” and in 1979 Ken was the subject of one of the Reverend Norman Vincent Peale's nationally syndicated radio broadcasts “The American Character”. Wanting to accomplish still more, Ken enrolled in Hofstra University's School of Law, where he earned a Juris Doctor degree in 1982. Ken then went to work as an assistant district attorney in Nassau County, Long Island.   Ken was promoted a number of times during his more than 40 years with the District Attorney's Office, eventually becoming one of the Deputy Bureau Chiefs of the County Court Trial Bureau, where he helped supervise more than 20 other assistant district attorneys. In addition, over his years working in the Office, Ken supervised more than 50 student interns.   In 1996 Ken received the Honorable Thomas E. Ryan, Jr. Award presented by the Court Officers Benevolent Association of Nassau County for outstanding and dedicated service as an Assistant District Attorney. In 1999, Ken was awarded the George M. Estabrook Distinguished Service Award presented by the Hofstra Alumni Association, Inc. Beginning in 2005, for nine consecutive years, “The Ken Kunken Most Valuable Player Award” was presented annually by The Adirondack Trust Allegiance Bowl in Saratoga Springs, NY, in recognition of Ken's personal accomplishments, contributions to society and extraordinary courage.   In 2009, Ken became a member of the Board of Directors of Abilities Inc., and in 2017 he became a member of the Board of Directors for the parent company of Abilities Inc., the Viscardi Center.   In 2020, Ken was inducted into “The Susan M. Daniels Disability Mentoring Hall of Fame,” as a member of the class of 2019.   In December 2023, “The Kenneth J. Kunken Award” was presented by the Nassau County District Attorney's Office, for the first time, to an outstanding Nassau County Assistant District Attorney who personifies Ken's unique spirit and love of trial work, as well as his commitment and dedication, loyalty to his colleagues and his devotion to doing justice. The Award will be presented annually.   In March 2024, Ken was named one of the Long Island Business News Influencers in Law. Ken retired from full-time employment in 2016, but continued to work with the District Attorney's Office for the next eight years in a part time capacity, providing continuing legal education lectures and litigation guidance.   For years, Ken has tried to inspire people to do more with their lives. In October 2023, Ken's memoir “I Dream of Things That Never Were: The Ken Kunken Story” was published. In 2003 Ken married Anna and in 2005 they became the proud parents of triplet boys: Joey, Jimmy and Timmy. On June 23, 2023 the triplets graduated from Oceanside High School, fifty-five years after Ken had graduated from the same school. Ways to connect with Ken:   https://www.facebook.com/ken.kunken https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61566473121422 https://www.instagram.com/ken.kunken/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenneth-j-kunken-b4b0a9a8/ https://www.youtube.com/@Ken.Kunken https://bsky.app/profile/kenkunken.bsky.social   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello once again, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael hingson, and today we have a fascinating guest, I believe. Anyway, his name is Ken. Kuan, kunken. Am I pronouncing that right? Yes, you are. Oh, good. And Ken, in 1970 underwent a problem when he was playing football and doing a tackle on a kickoff. Namely, he broke his neck and became a quadriplegic, basically from the shoulders down. I'm sort of familiar with the concept, because my wife, from birth was in a wheelchair. She was a paraplegic, paralyzed from the t3 vertebrae down, which was like right below the breast, so she was able to transfer and so on. So not quite the same, but a lot of the same issues, of course, and we're going to talk about that basically, because when you're in a wheelchair, like a lot of other kinds of disabilities, society doesn't tend to do all they should to accommodate. And I can, can make that case very well. Most people are light dependent, and we have provided reasonable accommodations for them by providing light bulbs and light on demand wherever they go, wherever they are, whatever they do, while at the same time for people who are blind, we don't get the same degree of access without pushing a lot harder. And people in wheelchairs, of course, have all sorts of physical issues as well, such as stairs and no ramps and other things like that. And I know that Ken's going to talk some about that from university days and my wife Karen face some of the same things. But anyway, we'll get to it all. Ken, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And I think your wife, Anna is visiting with us also, right, right? Thank you. Michael, so Anna, welcome as well. Thank you so Ken. Why don't we start if we could by you telling us sort of about the early Ken, growing up and all that from being a child, and tell us a little bit about you.   Ken Kunken ** 03:40 Okay, well, if you're going back to my childhood area, Yeah, it sure is. It's quite a while ago, but I was born in 1950 and that happened to be in the midst of the polio epidemic, and unfortunately, my mother contracted polio and died when I was less than one month old. So I have an older brother, Steve, who's two years older than me, and my father brother and I ended up moving in with my grandparents for a few years before my father remarried when I was four years old. A long shot. But what's your birth date? Right? My birth date is July 15, 1950 on   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 February 24 1950 So, okay, was was just kind of hoping there was the possibility, right? Anyway, go ahead.   Ken Kunken ** 04:30 So, um, during my father's second marriage, that's when my sister Merrill was born. She's 10 years younger than I am, but unfortunately, that was not a happy marriage, and it ended in a divorce. And when I was 18, my father married for the third time. So you know, growing up in a household with a number of individuals seemingly coming and going was a little different than most people's   Michael Hingson ** 04:57 households when they were growing up. How. Was that for you?   Ken Kunken ** 05:01 Well, you know, it was nice in the sense that I got involved with a lot of different family members in my extended family. I'm very close, growing up with my grandparents, with aunts, uncles, cousins, as well as my sister and brother. And you know, I had the opportunity to interact with a lot of different people. It was difficult during my father's second marriage, because it was not a happy marriage, and, you know, it worked out in everybody's best interest when that ended in divorce. But I look back at my childhood, and I just basically call it as a very happy childhood?   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 Oh, good. Well, so no real major traumas, certainly differences, but no real harrowing kinds of things that just threw you into a complete topsy turvy at least as far as you're concerned, right? Yeah. Well, then you decided to go to Cornell, as I recall, and I know Cornell has a, I think it's a master's program, but an advanced program in hospitality. So did they feed you well at Cornell?   Ken Kunken ** 06:13 Yes, they had a very good system and fed us very well. And they have a program in hotel management, right, which I was not involved in, but there was a lot of good food at Cornell when we were there.   Michael Hingson ** 06:28 Well, that's that's always important, you know, you got to have good food at UC Irvine. We were okay. Food wise. I was on the food committee for the dorms, actually, and the food was all right, but when they had steak night that they always made a big deal about the steak was usually pretty tough, and so we we had sometimes that the food wasn't great, but they had a great soft serve ice cream machine, so lot of people took advantage of that. But anyway, so when you were at Cornell, you played football,   Ken Kunken ** 07:01 right? I was on their lightweight football team. It's for people that were smaller than the heavyweight team. When I was playing, you had to weigh 154 pounds or less two days before the game. So most of the people had played on their high school teams was too small to play on the varsity college team, but it was a varsity sport. Most of the people were very good athletes and very fast, and it was very competitive sport.   Michael Hingson ** 07:35 So tell us about that and what happened.   Ken Kunken ** 07:38 Well, during my junior year, I was injured making a tackle on a kickoff in a game against Columbia University, and when I tackled the ball carrier, I broke my neck and damaged my spinal cord, and as a result, I'm a quadriplegic. I'm almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down,   Michael Hingson ** 08:01 and so, what kind of effect? Well, that clearly that that was pretty bad news and so on. So what kind of effect did that have on you, and how did that shape what you did going forward?   Ken Kunken ** 08:15 Oh, it totally changed my perspective on everything about myself. I mean, growing up, my life seemed to center around sports. In high school, I played on the varsity football team. I wrestled on the varsity wrestling team. I played on four different intramural softball teams. I worked on the summer as a lifeguard. Everything in my life revolved around athletics and being physically active. Now, suddenly, I couldn't be physically active at all. In fact, I am totally sedentary, sitting in a wheelchair, and I need assistance with all my activities of daily living now.   Michael Hingson ** 08:54 So what did you do when the injury happened and so on? So how did you deal with all of that?   Ken Kunken ** 09:01 Well, it was a really difficult adjustment to make. I mean, suddenly I became dependent on everybody around me, because there was not one thing I could do for myself. So it was very difficult knowing that now not only was I dependent on others, but I had to be more outgoing to be able to have asked for help when I needed it, which was difficult for me, because I had always considered myself a bit of shy person, a bit of an introvert, and now I needed to be more vocal with respect to all of my needs. So I swear, go ahead. Well, I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers, and it was really, really difficult getting used to my new physical condition.   Michael Hingson ** 09:52 But at the same time, you could have taken the position that you just hated yourself and you just wanted to I. Make life end and so on. And it doesn't sound like that was the approach that you took.   Ken Kunken ** 10:04 Mike, I was so fortunate that I had a very supportive family who were with me and helped me every step of the way. In fact, they basically assured me that they would act as my arms and legs to make sure I could still do everything I wanted to do in my life   Michael Hingson ** 10:22 doesn't get much better than that, having a real supportive village, if you will.   Ken Kunken ** 10:27 Right? I was so fortunate, and you know, I think that helped me be able to do many things in my life that most people thought would not be possible for someone in my condition, and I was able to do it because of the help I received from my family.   Michael Hingson ** 10:44 So what did you major in at Cornell? Let's say, before the injury.   Ken Kunken ** 10:50 I before my injury, I was majoring in industrial engineering, okay? And you know, after my injury, I went back to school and continued my studies in industrial engineering and actually obtained my degree, a Bachelor of Science in industrial engineering.   Michael Hingson ** 11:08 Now, what primarily is industrial engineering?   Ken Kunken ** 11:12 Well, you know, it's kind of a technical aspect of dealing with men, material, machines, and, you know, most likely working at a business where there are a lot of different people working there, where you would try and find out what the best way of people to operate, whether it be in a factory or just in a large business setting, when you're dealing with technical aspects of the job. But I never actually worked as an engineer, because, following my degree, based on the recommendation of one of my psychology professors, I stayed at Cornell and pursued a career in counseling. And I find that a lot more suitable to not only my physical condition, but what I really wanted to do. Because, following my injury, I knew that what I really wanted to do was to devote my life and career to helping others.   Michael Hingson ** 12:08 So you very well could have made the same switch and made the same choices, even if you hadn't undergone the accident,   Ken Kunken ** 12:17 absolutely and hopefully, I would have, because I found it a lot more enjoyable, and I believe it taught me a lot about dealing with people, and it made me feel very good about myself to know that I was still in a position, despite my disability, where I could help others.   Michael Hingson ** 12:40 So you stayed at Cornell and got that master's degree in counseling, which, which really gave you that opportunity. What did you do after that?   Ken Kunken ** 12:50 Well, to increase my counseling credentials, I then went to Columbia University, where I obtained my second degree. This one was also in counseling. That degree was in psychological counseling and rehabilitation, and I decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field. And now that I had two degrees from Cornell and one from Columbia, three prestigious Ivy League degrees, two master's degrees, I didn't think I'd have much difficulty securing employment, but to my dismay, no one would hire me. This was in the mid 70s, and everyone seemed to feel I was just too disabled to work.   Michael Hingson ** 13:32 Now, why did you go to Columbia to get your second degree, your masters in rehabilitation,   Ken Kunken ** 13:39 you know? And incidentally, it that was the school I actually was injured against during the football   Michael Hingson ** 13:44 I know that's why I asked the enemy, right?   Ken Kunken ** 13:47 Yeah, but I actually applied there for my doctorate, doctorate in counseling psychology. And initially I didn't get into that program, but they invited me to participate in their master's program, and said that they would reconsider my application when I finished that degree. Now, I thought that was a special letter that I got from them because of my injury, and I thought they just wanted to see me that I could do graduate work. As it turned out, virtually everybody that applied for that program got a similar letter, and when I first met with my advisor there at Columbia, he said, you know, if you didn't get in the first time, you're probably not going to get in even when you graduate. So since I had nothing else to do at that point, I enrolled in the master's program, and I completed my second master's degree. And you know, at the time, even my advisor was pessimistic about my work prospects, wow, just because of my ability, because of my disability, and despite. Fact that here they were training people to be rehabilitation counselors and encouraging people to go into that field, they felt that due to my disability, I would still have a very difficult time gaining employment,   Michael Hingson ** 15:14 which is as ironic as it gets,   Ken Kunken ** 15:17 absolutely, absolutely and I was just very fortunate that there was a facility on Long Island called abilities Incorporated, which was part of what was then called the Human Resources Center. Is now called the Viscardi Center, after its founder, Dr Henry Viscardi, Jr, and they hired me to work as a vocational rehabilitation counselor for other individuals who had severe disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 15:46 I'm a little bit familiar with the buscardi Center, and have found them to be very open minded in the way they operate.   Ken Kunken ** 15:54 They were terrific, absolutely terrific. And I was so fortunate to get involved with them, to be hired, to work for them, and, you know, to be associated with all the fine work they were doing it on behalf of helping other individuals with disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 16:13 So was it primarily paraplegics and quadriplegics and so on, or did they do blind people and other disabilities as well.   Ken Kunken ** 16:21 They did a lot of different disabilities, but they did not work with people that were visually impaired. For that in New York state, there was a special agency called the commission for the visually handicapped that helped people with visual impairments, but we dealt with all different types of disabilities, whether people were hearing impaired or had not just spinal cord injuries, but other disabilities, either from birth or disabilities that they developed through diseases. And as it turned out, I was probably one of the most severely disabled of the people that I dealt with.   Michael Hingson ** 17:02 Well, but you were also, by any definition, a good role model.   Ken Kunken ** 17:06 Well, I was fortunate that I was able to help a lot of different people, and I felt that when they looked at me and saw that I was able to work despite my disability, I know it encouraged them to do their best to go out and get a job themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 And of course, it really ultimately comes down to attitude. And for you, having a positive attitude had to really help a great deal.   Ken Kunken ** 17:34 I think it made all the difference in the world. And I was very fortunate that it was my family that instilled that positive attitude in me, and they gave me so much help that after a while, I thought I'd be letting them down if I didn't do everything I could do to make something out of my life.   Michael Hingson ** 17:53 So what did you do? Well, not only   Ken Kunken ** 17:57 did I go back to school and complete my education, but I went to work and, you know, got up early every day, and with the aid of a personal care attendant, I was able to go to work and function as a vocational counselor and help others in trying to achieve their goals.   Michael Hingson ** 18:17 Now, were you going to school while you were doing some of this?   Ken Kunken ** 18:20 No, I finished my second okay, and now was able to work full time.   Michael Hingson ** 18:27 Okay, so you did that, and how long did you work there?   Ken Kunken ** 18:32 Well, I worked there for a little over two years, and you know, my duties and responsibilities kept expanding while I was there, and one of my duties was to speak at conferences before groups and organizations concerning affirmative action and non discrimination for people with disabilities. And often after my talks, I would be asked questions, and while I would do my best to respond appropriately, I was always careful to caution the question is that they should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns. And I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. So after a little over two years, I decided to leave the job, and I went to Hofstra University School of Law.   Michael Hingson ** 19:20 So now what? What year was this?   Ken Kunken ** 19:24 I left the job. I started the job in 77 I left in 79 when I started law school.   Michael Hingson ** 19:32 Okay, so you went to Hofstra,   Ken Kunken ** 19:35 right? And while I was at Hofstra through my brother's suggestion. My brother was working as a public defender at the time, he suggested I do an internship at the district attorney's office. So after my second year of law school, I did an internship there during the summer, and I found a new way. I could help people and serve the community as a whole, and I really enjoyed that work. So when I was in my third year of law school, I applied for a full time position with the district attorney's office, and I was very fortunate that the district attorney was a very progressive, self confident individual who based his hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability.   Michael Hingson ** 20:27 Wow, that had to be, especially back then, a fairly, as you said, progressive, but an amazing thing to do, because even today, there are so many times that we get challenges and too many things thrown in our way, but you had someone who really thought enough of you and obviously decided that your abilities were such on the job that you could do   Ken Kunken ** 20:51 it. I was very fortunate to have come in contact with the district attorney at the time. His name was Dennis Dillon, and he seemed to know that when I'd go to court, a jury was not going to base its verdict on my inability to walk, but rather on my skill and competence as an attorney. And thanks to the training and guidance I received in the office, I became a very confident and competent, skilled trial attorney   Michael Hingson ** 21:22 well, and it had to be the way you projected yourself that would convince a jury to decide cases in the right way. So again, kudos to you.   Ken Kunken ** 21:33 Thank you. Well, I certainly did my best to do that, and at the time that I applied for this job, I didn't know of any quadriplegics that were trial attorneys. May have been some, but I didn't know of any. Certainly there were none on Long Island, and certainly no assistant district attorneys at the time that I knew of who were quadriplegics.   Michael Hingson ** 21:59 Now, of course, the question that comes to mind is, so was the office accessible?   Ken Kunken ** 22:05 No question. And you know, let me just go further by telling you that my first day in court, I couldn't even fit through the swinging doorways in the courtroom. They were too narrow to let me get through to get to the prosecutor's table, because my electric wheelchair was too wide.   Michael Hingson ** 22:24 What did you do? Or what happened?   Ken Kunken ** 22:27 Well, eventually they had to take off the swinging doorways and the screws and bolts that kept them in place, but usually I had to go very roundabout on a long way to get to the back of each courtroom and go through the back, which was really difficult. And one of my assignments happened to be to our traffic court Bureau, which was in a neighboring building on the second floor, and unfortunately, there the elevator was broken. So after three days, I was actually received my first promotion, because they didn't know when it would be fixed. But eventually I was able to get into court, and I did a lot of litigation while I was   Michael Hingson ** 23:10 there. How did judges react to all of this?   Ken Kunken ** 23:15 You know, it was very new to them as well. And you know, there are times when you needed to approach the bench and talk very quietly, you know, to so the jury wouldn't hear you, and it was very difficult, because benches are elevated, yeah. And I had difficulty approaching the bench or even turning my head side enough to look up at the judges and then for them to hear me. And sometimes they would have to get off the bench, and, you know, meet me on the side of the courtroom to have conferences and but for the most part, I thought they were very supportive. I thought they appreciated the hard work that I was doing, and I think they tried to be accommodating when they could.   Michael Hingson ** 23:58 Did you ever encounter any that just were totally intolerant of all of it,   Ken Kunken ** 24:02 sure, you know, many of them were very impatient. Some of them had difficulty hearing and when I was trying to look up and talk to them without the jury hearing, some of them had trouble hearing me because, you know, they were much higher up than I was in my wheelchair. So it was very challenging.   Michael Hingson ** 24:23 I was involved in a lawsuit against an airline because they wouldn't allow me and my guide dog to sit where we wanted to sit on the airplane, which was in direct violation of even the rules of the airline. And when it went to court, the judge who was assigned it was a federal judge, and he was like 80, and he just couldn't hear anything at all. It was, it was really too bad. And of course, my and my wife was was with me, and of course, in her chair, so she wasn't sitting in a regular row. And he even grilled her, what are you doing? Why aren't you sitting in a row? And she said, I'm in a wheelchair. Oh, yeah, it's amazing that hopefully we are we have progressed a little bit from a lot of that the last thing. So, yeah, the lawsuit was 1985 so it was a long time ago, and hopefully we have progressed some. But still, there are way too many people who don't get it, and who don't understand nearly as much as they should, and don't internalize that maybe we're not all the same, and we can't necessarily do everything exactly the same every single time,   Ken Kunken ** 25:35 right? And you know, I had the added misfortune of having my injury 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, and that made an enormous difference for not just people in wheelchairs, but people with all different types of disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 25:53 So how did you, in general, learn to deal with people's perceptions of you, rather than the reality? Well, that is a lot. Yeah, there are lots of perceptions, right?   Ken Kunken ** 26:07 You know, many people think that because you have a physical disability, that you must also have an intellectual disability. And people would often come into my room and wherever I was, whether it was when I was first in the hospital or later at the office and speak to the person next to me and ask them questions about me, as if I couldn't speak for myself, yeah, even as if I wasn't even there. And it took a while for me to be more outgoing and convince people that, yes, they can deal with me. You know, I can still talk and think. And I think whenever a jury came into the courtroom for the first time, I think they were very surprised to see the prosecutor as somebody with a disability who was sitting in an electric wheelchair.   Michael Hingson ** 26:56 I know once we went to a restaurant, and of course, having a family with two people in two different disabilities, went to this restaurant, and we were waiting to be seated, and finally, Karen said the hostess is just staring at us. She doesn't know who to talk to, because I'm not making eye contact, necessarily. And Karen, sitting in her chair is way lower. And so Karen just said to me, Well, this lady doesn't know who to talk to. So I said, Well, maybe we can get her to just ask us what what we want and what help we need. Are carrying on the conversation. Got this, this nice lady to recognize. Oh, you know, I can talk with them. And so she said, Well, how can I help you? And we both kind of said we'd like to sit and have breakfast. Oh, okay, and it went well from there. But it is, it is a challenge, and people have crazy perceptions, I know, going down the stairs at the World Trade Center on September 11, when I encountered the firefighters coming up for a while, they blocked me from going because they decided that I needed help, and they would, they would ask me questions, like, we're going to help you. Is that okay? And I said, No, it's not. But they always talked loud, because if you're blind, you obviously can't hear either, right? And it was difficult to get them to deal with all of that. And finally, I had to just say, Look, I got my friend David over here, who can see we're working together. We're fine, and they let us go because I had a sighted person with me, not that I had the ability to go downstairs, even though I had to help keep David focused sometimes, and also, there's no magic for a blind person to go downstairs. You know, you go down the stairs, you hold the rail, you turn left there, in this case, and you go down the next batch of stairs. But people don't recognize that. Maybe there are techniques that we use to deal with the same things that they deal with, only in a different way.   Ken Kunken ** 29:03 Absolutely, and that applies to work as well. I mean, people assume that if you can't do a job the way most people seem to do it, who don't have a disability, they automatically assume you're not going to be able to function at all at the job. Yeah, and a lot of times, it takes a lot of convincing to show people that there are other ways of approaching a problem and handling a work situation.   Michael Hingson ** 29:27 One of the common things that we as blind people face, and it happens in schools and so on, is, Oh, you don't need to learn braille that's outmoded. You can listen to books that are computer generated or recorded and so on. And the reality is, no we need to learn braille for the same reason the sighted people learn to read print, and that is, it's all about learning to spell. It's learning about sentence structure and so on, and it's learning about having better ways to be able to truly enter. Interact with the text as I tell people, I don't care what anyone says, you will not learn physics as well from recordings as you can by truly having access to everything in a braille book, because you can refer back easier, and they've done some improvements in recording, but it's still not the same as what you get when you do Braille, which is the same thing for you reading print, or any other sighted person reading print. You read that print because there are various reasons why you need to do that, as opposed to learning how to just listen to books recorded anyway,   Ken Kunken ** 30:36 right? Well, I had the added misfortune of being injured well before they had laptop   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 computers. Yeah, me too. Well, I yeah, not. I wasn't injured, but yeah,   Ken Kunken ** 30:46 right. So trying to do my schoolwork or later work at a job, you know, it posed even more challenges. Now, of course, having ebooks and being able to use a computer, it's made a big difference, not just for me, but for many individuals.   Michael Hingson ** 31:04 Sure, do you use like programs like Dragon Naturally Speaking to interact with the computer?   Ken Kunken ** 31:10 You know, I tried that, and I had a lot of difficulty with it. I know you need to train it. And when I first tried it, which was in its infancy, it just wasn't responding well to my voice, so I don't use that. I've been fortunate with that with advancements in wheelchairs, my wheelchair now has a Bluetooth device connected to my joystick, and I could actually move my left arm a little bit where I could work the joystick and move the mouse on my computer, moving my joystick. You   Michael Hingson ** 31:45 really might want to look into dragon again. It is just so incredibly different than it was years ago. I remember when Dragon Dictate first came out, and all of the challenges of it, but they have done so much work in developing the language models that it's it's a whole lot better than it used to be, and, yeah, you have to train it. But training isn't all that hard nowadays, even by comparison to what it was, and it gives you a lot of flexibility. And I am absolutely certain it would recognize your voice without any difficulty?   Ken Kunken ** 32:22 Well, it's good to hear that they've made those advancements,   Michael Hingson ** 32:26 and it's not nearly as expensive as it used to be, either. Well, that's good   Ken Kunken ** 32:30 to hear. I know when I first tried it, it was incredibly frustrating, yeah, because it wasn't responding well to my voice, and   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 it was like $1,500 as I recall, it was pretty expensive right now, it's maybe two or $300 and there's also a legal version of it and other things like that. Yeah, you really ought to try it. You might find it makes a big difference. It's worth exploring Anyway, okay, but be that as it may, so you you dealt with people's perceptions, and how did you, as you continue to encounter how people behave towards you, how did you keep from allowing that to embitter you or driving you crazy?   Ken Kunken ** 33:15 Well, you know, certainly at work, I needed to go in a jacket and tie, and I found that when you're wearing a jacket and tie, many people treated you differently than when you're just wearing street clothes. So I think that certainly helped that work. But I later became a supervisor in the district attorney's office, and people saw that, you know, not only could they talk with me on an intellectual level, but they saw I was supervising other assistant district attorneys, and I think that convinced a lot of people pretty quickly that I knew what I was doing and that they should treat me no different than they would any other lawyer, Assistant District Attorney.   Michael Hingson ** 33:59 Yeah, well, and it is projecting that confidence in a in a positive way that does make such a big difference,   Ken Kunken ** 34:08 absolutely. And I think when people saw me at work, one of the things that I appreciated was I never even needed to mention again that somebody with a disability could work, and not just at an entry level position, that a very responsible position. I was convinced them, just by showing them, without ever having to mention that somebody with a disability could do this kind of work.   Michael Hingson ** 34:35 I never bring it up unless it comes up, and a lot of times, especially when talking on the phone and so on, it never comes up. I've had times when people eventually met me, and of course, were themselves, somewhat amazed. I'm a blind person and all that I said, nothing's changed here, folks. The reality is that the same guy I was when you were just talking to me on the phone. So let's move forward. Word. And mostly people got it and and dealt with it very well.   Ken Kunken ** 35:08 Well, I used to have a lot of people, when they meet me for the first time, were very surprised to see that I was in a wheelchair. I never would say, Boy, you didn't sound like you were disabled. Yeah, right. And I think they were very surprised when they met me.   Michael Hingson ** 35:23 I've had some people who've said that to me, Well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. And so depending on how snarky I feel or not, I might say, Well, what does a blind person sound like? And that generally tends to stop them, because the reality is, what does a blind person sound like? It doesn't mean anything at all, and it's really their attitudes that need to change. And I know as a keynote speaker for the last 23 years, just by doing the things that I do, and talking and communicating with people, it is also all about helping to change attitudes, which is a lot of fun.   Ken Kunken ** 36:03 You know, Michael, when I first went back to college, I was approached by a student on campus, and when he asked if I was Ken kunken, and I responded that I was, he asked, aren't you supposed to be in the hospital? Now, you know, I was very tempted to say yes, but I escaped. Please don't tell anyone. But you know, it even took a while to just show people, somebody with a disability does not need to be permanently in a rehab facility or a hospital or staying at home with their families, that there's an awful lot somebody could do and to be seen out in public and show people that you can work, you can go to school, you can do basically what everybody else does once you're given the opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 36:55 Of course, being spiteful, my response would have been, well, yeah, I should still be in the hospital doing brain surgery, but I decided that I didn't want to be a doctor because I didn't have any patients, so I decided to take a different career, right? Oh, people, yeah, what do you do? And we all face it, but the reality is, and I believe very firmly and have have thought this way for a long time, that like it or not, we're teachers, and we do need to teach people, and we need to take that role on, and it can be difficult sometimes, because you can lose patience, depending on what kind of questions people ask and so on. But the reality is, we are teachers, and our job is to teach, and we can make that a very fun thing to do as we move forward, too.   Ken Kunken ** 37:44 You know, Michael, I found most people really want to be helpful. Yeah, a lot of times they don't know how to be helpful or how to go about it, or what to say or what to do, but most people are really good people that want to help. And you know, the more they come in contact with somebody with a disability, the more comfortable they will feel   Michael Hingson ** 38:04 right, and they'll learn to ask if you want help, and they won't make the assumption, which is, of course, the whole point.   Ken Kunken ** 38:14 You know, Michael, when you leave the job the district attorney's office, you would go through what they call an exit interview, where they would ask you what you thought was the best part of the job, what you thought could be improved. And I'm so happy and proud to say that I was told that a number of assistant district attorneys said that one of the best parts of their job was meeting and getting to know and working with me. And the reason why I wanted to highlight that was I know they weren't talking about me being Ken kunken, but me being somebody with a disability. Because unless they had a close relative with a disability, people rarely came in daily contact with somebody with a disability, and for them, it was often a revelation that they found helped motivate and inspire them to work harder in their job, and they were very appreciative of that,   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 but they also learned that the disability wasn't what defined you. What defined you was you and your personality and what you did not necessarily exactly how you   Ken Kunken ** 39:24 did it, absolutely. And I think it was also a revelation that working with me did not involve additional work for them, right? I was able to carry my own weight, and often was more productive than many of the people I was working with. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 39:42 Well, and I think that's a very crucial point about the whole thing. When you became a lawyer, did that change your view of yourself? I mean, I know it was a kind of an evolution that got you to being a lawyer. But how did becoming a lawyer and when go. Answer, and getting the law degree and then working in a law office. How did that change your perceptions and your attitudes and outlook?   Ken Kunken ** 40:06 You know, it really changed it a great deal, because I had people look at me with a very different eye when they were looking at me. You know, I enjoyed my work as a vocational rehabilitation counselor very much. And I encourage people to do that work. But I felt that there were people that looked at me and thought, you know, he has a disability. Maybe he could only work with other people had disabilities. And I was very proud of the fact that when I became a lawyer, I was working with very few people that had disabilities. Most of them were able bodied. And I wanted to show people that you're not limited in any way with who you're going to work with and what you could do. And I think it's so important for people to keep their perceptions high, their expectations high when they're dealing with individuals, because just because somebody has a disability does not mean they cannot perform and do as much as virtually anybody else on the job   Michael Hingson ** 41:14 well, and you clearly continue to have high expectations of and for you, but also I would suspect that the result was you had high expectations for those around you as well. You helped them shape what they did, and by virtue of the way you functioned, you helped them become better people as well.   Ken Kunken ** 41:38 Well, I certainly tried to and from the feedback that I've gotten from many of the people I worked with, that seemed to be the case, and I'm very proud of that. In fact, I might add Michael that two years ago, the district attorney, now her name is Ann Donnelly, actually started an award in the district attorney's office that's given out annually that they named the Kenneth J kunken award. They named it for me because they wanted to recognize and honor the outstanding Assistant District Attorney each year who displayed the work ethic and the loyalty and devotion to the office as well the person in the wheelchair, right? And I'm very proud of that,   Michael Hingson ** 42:25 but I will bet, and I'm not trying to mitigate it, but I will bet that mostly that award came about because of the things that you did and your work ethic, and that the wheelchair aspect of it was really somewhat second nature. And far down the list,   Ken Kunken ** 42:41 I'm very proud of the fact that that seems to be the case and and one of the aspects of that award was they talked about the effect that I had on my colleagues, and the beneficial effect that that was Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:56 because the reality is, it ultimately comes down to who you are and what you do and and I'm not, and again, I'm not mitigating being in a wheelchair or having any kind of disability, but I really, truly believe ultimately the disability isn't what is not what defines us, it's how we are and what we do and how we behave in society that really will be what helps us make a mark on whatever we're involved with,   Ken Kunken ** 43:28 right? And I think for some, as I say, it was a revelation to see that somebody with a disability had the same needs, wants and desires as everybody else. We were certainly no different with respect to that right.   Michael Hingson ** 43:43 So how long did you work as a lawyer and in the district attorney's office?   Ken Kunken ** 43:49 Well, I worked there full time for more than 33 years, and then I worked there in a part time capacity for an additional eight years. So all told, more than 40 years I worked there, and in fact, I'm one of the longest serving Nassau County assistant district attorneys that they've ever had.   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 Now, why did you go back to part time after 33 years?   Ken Kunken ** 44:15 Well, there are a number of reasons. You know, I I thought that due to some health issues, I wanted to play it safe and make sure that I locked in my pension, because I thought there would be a bigger payout if I retired while I was still working than if I died while I was working on the job. As it turned out, my health issue seemed to resolve itself, but I decided that, you know, retiring, when I did, gave me some more time to spend at home with my family, and I really appreciated being able to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 44:53 That's a very admirable thing. Can't complain about that. So what keeps you going?   Ken Kunken ** 45:00 What keeps me going now is my family. Just so your listeners know, I'm married to the wonderful woman that's actually sitting to my right right now. My name is Anna, and we're actually the parents of triplet sons. We have three incredible boys, Joseph, James and Timothy. They're now 20 years old, and they're currently sophomores at three separate colleges in upstate New York, and they're the light of my life. I couldn't be more proud. And they're what keeps me going these days.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 What colleges?   Ken Kunken ** 45:36 Well, James is going to the State University of New York at Morrisville, where he's studying renewable energy. Timothy is pursuing a dual major at the SI Newhouse School of Communications in the Maxwell School of Public Policy at Syracuse University. And my son Joseph is actually attending my alma mater, Cornell University, where he's majoring in mechanical engineering.   Michael Hingson ** 46:06 And do they all go watch football games on the weekend? I mean, given the fact that least a couple of those are at schools with good football   Ken Kunken ** 46:13 teams, right? But you know what? They never wanted anything to do with football. But they are all physically active, in great shape, and in fact, all of them have pursued the martial arts, and all three of them are second degree black belts in Taekwondo. And they've all even worked as instructors in the Taekwondo studio here in Long Island.   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 So dad has to be careful, though they'll take you out, huh?   Ken Kunken ** 46:39 You bet. In fact, I've got my own three personal bodyguards when   Michael Hingson ** 46:43 I got right, you can't do better than that. And and Anna, which I'll bet is more formidable than all of them   Ken Kunken ** 46:53 on, is incredible. I mean, she is just a force that is unstoppable. She's incredible.   Michael Hingson ** 47:01 Well, that's cool all the way around, and it's, it's great that you, you have a good neighborhood around you to support you, and I think we all need that. That's that's pretty important to to deal with. So with your job and all that, now that you are retired, I don't know whether you have much stress in your life, but how do you deal with stress? And how does stress affect you and or does it make any difference with a disability?   Ken Kunken ** 47:30 It sure does. It's an interesting question, because before my injury, one of the ways I would deal with stress would be out of the football field, yeah, you know, being physically active, running into an individual, you know, to tackle or block, that was a great way to relieve some of my stress. Once I had my injury, I no longer had that outlet, so I had to find different ways of dealing with it. One of my ways was, you know, trying to sit outside and sit in the garden or by water and, you know, just enjoy nature and try and relax and clear my mind. But now my best stress relievers are my three children. I'm spending time with them, watching all that they're doing. I find that the best way of me to be able to relax and relieve any anxieties that I have?   Michael Hingson ** 48:23 Well, I think there's a lot of value in doing things that keep you calm and focused. I think that is the best way to deal with stress. All too often, we don't think or be introspective about ourselves and our lives, and we don't really step back and get rid of that stress mentally, and that's where it really all comes from. I mean, I know people have physical manifestations of stress and so on, but I would submit that typically, stress is so much more an emotional thing because we haven't learned how to deal with it, and you clearly have   Ken Kunken ** 49:02 it took a while, but yeah, now I have my family to help every step of the way, and that includes relieving the stress that I've under.   Michael Hingson ** 49:10 Yeah, and stress is important to get rid of and not have around. It will help you live a whole lot longer not to have stress I just went through a week ago and op was, you know, an operation to change a heart valve. And people keep asking me, well, Weren't you worried? Weren't you stressed over that? And my answer was, No, I had no control over it really happening to my knowledge, I don't think that I've been a very poor eater, and all of my arteries and everything were good. And so no, I wasn't stressed, even when I first learned that there was an issue and wasn't an emergency room for over 24 hours, mostly sitting around, I chose not to be stressed, and it was a choice. And so I just listened to things around me and became quite entertained at some of the people. People who were in the emergency room with me, but being stressed wasn't going to do anything to help the process at all. So I refuse to get stressed.   Ken Kunken ** 50:09 That's great. And you know, I think this finally retiring has helped me deal with stress as well, because working as an assistant district attorney, there can be a lot of stressful situations in the office, and it's, it's nice to finally be retired and be able to enjoy all of my activities outside of the office.   Michael Hingson ** 50:33 What would you say is probably the most stressful thing that you had to endure as an attorney? You were, I mean, you did this for 40 years, or almost 40 years? So what? Well, actually, yeah, for 40 years. So what would you say is the most stressful thing that you ever had to deal with?   Ken Kunken ** 50:50 Well, I had to rely on, you know, my memory, because it was difficult for me even turning pages of a book or pulling, you know, pieces of paper out of a file, and there was a lot of paperwork that you get to be familiar with, whether they be grand jury testimony or prior witness statements. And I had to rely a lot of my memory and through the help of student interns or paralegals or secretaries, and it was very difficult. And I might add, you know, just to give you one anecdote, one day after I had convicted a defendant of, you know, felony, you know, he was a person with a lot of prior involvement with the criminal justice system, and I was about to go down for his sentencing, he jumped in the elevator with me, and now we're alone in the elevator riding down, and here I am with this person that I convicted of a serious case, and I'm about to recommend that he go to an upstate prison. And he approaches me and says, I have a proposition for you. If you don't send me to jail, I'll agree to work as your personal care attendant for a year, which really struck me as odd. I mean, he must have thought that working for me for a year would be the equivalent of going to prison for a few years. But fortunately, the elevator door opened and I politely turned down his request and went to court, and he was sentenced to two to four years in an upstate prison.   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 Still was creative,   52:30 right?   Michael Hingson ** 52:33 So in all of your life and all the things you've done, what are you most proud   Ken Kunken ** 52:36 of, well, but definitely most proud of my family life? I mean, as I indicated, I'm married now, married for more than 21 years now, my three boys are sophomores in college and doing absolutely great, and make me proud every single day. But I'm proud of the fact that I was able to go back to school, complete my education and work at a job and earn a living where I was able to support myself and able to purchase a house and live now with my wife and children and lead as just about as normal a life as any other family would lead.   Michael Hingson ** 53:18 Now being married to Ana is that your first marriage? It sure is. So there we go. Well, I hear you and but you guys met late, and I'm going to step out on a limb and say it proves something that I've always felt, which is, you'll get married when the right person comes along, especially if you're mature enough to recognize it,   Ken Kunken ** 53:41 you're right. And I was very fortunate that the right person came along in my life, and we have a very happy marriage that I cannot picture life without him right now,   Michael Hingson ** 53:56 my wife and I got married when I was 32 she was 33 but we knew what we wanted in a partner, and when we first met each other, it just sort of clicked right from the beginning. We met in January of 1982 and in July, I asked her to marry me, and we got married in November of 1982 and so we were married for 40 years before she passed. And you know, there are always challenges, but, but you deal with it. So it must have been really an interesting time and an interesting life, suddenly discovering you have three boy triplets.   Ken Kunken ** 54:31 You know, it really was well, you know, when I decided to get married, she told me that she wanted to have my baby, and not just any baby my baby, she said she wanted to see a little pumpkin running around our home. And this really seemed impossible at the time. I had been paralyzed for more than 30 years, and I was already in my 50s, but we looked into various options, including in vitro fertilization and. And we're very excited, excited to learn we could still, I could still father a child. So we pursued it. And you know, through good fortune, good luck, and I guess somebody smiling on us from above, Anna became pregnant with triplets, and I couldn't be happier to have these three wonderful boys in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 55:21 So did becoming a father change you? Or how did you evolve? When that all happened,   Ken Kunken ** 55:26 it sure did. I mean, you know, it went from me being number one in honors life to suddenly being number four after all, three boys got the attention they needed, but it was wonderful for me to be able to help shape their lives and guide them so that they would develop the right character and values and learn the importance of helping others throughout their lives, which they do, and It's I think it's made me a better person, being able to help and guide them. That's cool.   Michael Hingson ** 56:07 Well, the the other thing I would ask is, if you had a chance to go back and talk to a younger Ken, what would you say? What would you teach them so that they would maybe make mistakes that you made?   Ken Kunken ** 56:18 Well, I'd say there's an awful lot you could still do in life, even without your physical movement, and sometimes it takes a lot of patience and a lot of self reflection, but to realize there's an awful lot you can do and that they need to keep their expectations high for themselves as well as for others, and to realize that just because something has not been done before doesn't mean they cannot do it now. They've got to find different ways of approaching problems and handling it and developing some self confidence in themselves and their ability to deal with difficult situations.   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 How did the Americans with Disabilities Act improve all that you did and make your life, especially on the job, better?   Ken Kunken ** 57:12 Well, it, you know, made facilities so much more accessible. When I first went back to college, there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus. On my first day back in school, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend my classes, and as I indicated, in the DAs office, I couldn't even fit through the swinging doorways to get in the courtroom. So it made it tremendously easier to not have to deal with all the physical challenges, but it also made it better for dealing with other people and their attitudes about dealing with people with disabilities, because thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act, you see more people with disabilities out in public. So people are more used to seeing, dealing, interacting with people, and seeing what they can do and that they're just like everybody else. And as a result, people's attitudes have been changing, and I think that's helped me as well, in many different ways.   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 Cool, well, you have written a book about all of this. Tell me about the book.   Ken Kunken ** 58:27 Okay, I actually started writing a book when I was still in the rehab facility. Not long after I was hurt, a friend of my aunt Lorraine's by the name of Albert meglan visited me in the hospital and thought that one it may help me deal with my depression by talking about what I was going through, but also inform other individuals what a spinal cord injury was like and what's involved with rehabilitation. So he used to visit me in the rehab facility one day a week for a number of weeks for me to start writing a book about my experiences. And then when I went back to school, I started working on it on my own, but I would pick it up and stop and start and stop again over the course of 50 years. And then once I retired, I had more time to sit down with my wife, and I would dictate to her, and she would type it on her laptop computer until we finally finished my memoir, which is called I dream of things that never were, the Ken kunken story, and it's published by a company called 12 tables Press, and they could learn more about my book by going on my website, which is kenkunkin.com and I might add that where I got the title of my book was six months after my injury. I was asked to testify before a United States Health subcommittee chaired by Senate. Senator Edward Kennedy. And eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail that had an inscription on it that the senator said his late brother Robert Kennedy liked very much. And the inscription read, some men see things as they are and say, Why I dream of things that never were. And say, why not? And that's where I got the title of my book. I dream of things that never were.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:28 Yeah, that's cool. And where can people get the book?   Ken Kunken ** 1:00:35 Well, it's available on Amazon. It's also available at the Cornell bookstore, and if they go on my website, Ken kunken.com spellkin For me, please. It's K U N, as in Nancy. K e n that tells of a number of ways that they could purchase the book, both the hardcover book, it's also available as a Kindle version as an e book, and just recently, we put it out as an audio book as well. And they could learn all about it by going to the website, but certainly it's available on Amazon. If they wanted to order in bulk, they could contact my publisher directly, and he could help them fulfill that type of order. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:22 That is great. So now the real question is, are there any more books in Ken to come out?   Ken Kunken ** 1:01:28 Well, this book took me 50 years to I know you got to go a little bit faster. So no, I think I wrote down everything that I wanted to convey to people in that book, and now I'm actively just promoting the book like you. I've spoken at a number of different events as a motivational speaker, and you know, the book has given me a way to get m

Send us a textIn this episode we tune in as Terrorism makes its first big appearance on our shores as Islamic extremist bomb the World Trade Center. In this episode we relive that terrible day. It would foreshadow the dominant issue of the next decade.  Questions or comments at , Randalrgw1@aol.com , https://twitter.com/randal_wallace , and http://www.randalwallace.com/Please Leave us a review at wherever you get your podcastsThanks for listening!!

9 11 World Trade Center and Fighting Organized Crime. Special Episode. Retired NYPD Detective John McNally, better known as Vic Ferrari, has written numerous comedic books about his time in the New York City Police Department. His experiences range from the 9/11 World Trade Center attacks to fighting organized crime as an Auto Theft Detective. The episode is also promoted across their Facebook , Instagram , LinkedIn , Medium and other platforms. "Life as a New York City police officer is nothing like what you see on television," Vic Ferrari says. "Of course, it can be fast-paced and action-packed. But unlike the soy boys you see running around with fake guns on the silver screen, NYPD cops are responsible for their actions." This episode of The Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show and Podcast now streaming for free on their website, in addition to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and most major social podcast platforms. Vic Ferrari's career with the NYPD included working at the World Trade Center during the 9/11 terror attack. "9/11" is shorthand for four coordinated terrorist attacks carried out by al-Qaeda that occurred on the morning of September 11, 2001. Nineteen terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes, deliberately crashing two of the planes into the upper floors of the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center complex. Look for supporting stories about this and much more from Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show and Podcast in platforms like Medium , Blogspot and Linkedin . As Vic Ferrari recounts, "The fires from the impacts were intensified by the planes' burning jet fuel. They weakened the steel support trusses, which attached each of the floors to the buildings' exterior walls." The collapse of the buildings left the site devastated, with thousands of volunteers coming to Ground Zero to help with the rescue, recovery, and clean-up efforts. 9 11 World Trade Center and Fighting Organized Crime. Special Episode. The Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show and Podcast episode is available for free on their website , Apple Podcasts , Spotify and most major podcast platforms. In addition to his work at the World Trade Center, Vic Ferrari also fought organized crime as an Auto Theft Detective for the NYPD. The NYPD OCCB was charged with the investigation and prevention of organized crime within New York City. Vic Ferrari's work included infiltrating organized auto larceny rings and using undercover tactics to take down criminal organizations. John McNally, a.k.a. Vic Ferrari is no ordinary retired detective. After spending decades serving in the New York City Police Department, Vic has traded in his badge, but not his sharp wit or energetic spirit. Episode. Available for free on their website and streaming on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and other podcast platforms. Born to an Irish father and an Italian mother, Vic grew up with a unique blend of cultures that shaped his no-nonsense personality and love of good times. These days, he enjoys the simple pleasures: a cold beer at the end of the day and the comforting ritual of asking guests to remove their shoes before stepping into his home. When he's not crafting his next book or sharing tales of life behind the badge, Vic is usually busy cleaning up after his lovable but neurotic Irish Wolfhound, a four-legged companion that keeps him on his toes. 9 11 World Trade Center and Fighting Organized Crime. You can listen to his stories and interview on our website for free in addition to platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and other major podcast platforms. For fans of real-life police stories delivered with humor and heart, Vic invites you to tune in to his podcast, NYPD Through the Looking Glass, where he shares unforgettable moments from his years in law enforcement. Vic Ferrari's books offer a behind-the-scenes look at the NYPD, revealing the good, the bad, and the ugly of the department. His titles include "NYPD: Laughing In The Line Of Duty", "The NYPD's Flying Circus: Cops, Crime & Chaos", and "Grand Theft Auto: The NYPD's Auto Crime Division". You can find more about his books and NYPD stories on his podcast "NYPD Through the Looking Glass", available on Apple, Spotify, and other podcast platforms. Follow him on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and X for more updates, and check out his author page for his latest news and releases. Vic Ferrari's stories are a testament to his dedication to the NYPD and his passion for storytelling. 9 11 World Trade Center and Fighting Organized Crime. The full podcast episode is streaming now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and across Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. You can find Vic Ferrari's books on various online platforms. Learn useful tips and strategies to increase your Facebook Success with John Jay Wiley. Both free and paid content are available on this Patreon page . Time is running out to secure the Medicare coverage you deserve! Whether you're enrolling for the first time or looking for a better plan, our experts help you compare options to get more benefits, lower costs, and keep your doctors, all for free! Visit LetHealthy.com , that's LetHealthy.com or call (866) 427-1225, (866) 427-1222 to learn more. You can help contribute money to make the Gunrunner Movie . The film that Hollywood won't touch. It is about a now Retired Police Officer that was shot 6 times while investigating Gunrunning. He died 3 times during Medical treatment and was resuscitated. You can join the fight by giving a monetary “gift” to help ensure the making of his film at agunrunnerfilm.com . Your golden years are supposed to be easy and worry free, at least in regards to finances. If you are over 70, you can turn your life insurance policy into cash. Visit LetSavings.com , LetSavings.com or call (866) 480-4252, (866) 480-4252, again that's (866) 480 4252 to see if you qualify. You can contact John J. “Jay” Wiley by email at Jay@letradio.com , or learn more about him on their website . Get the latest news articles, without all the bias and spin, from the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show and Podcast on Medium , which is free. Find a wide variety of great podcasts online at The Podcast Zone Facebook Page , look for the one with the bright green logo. Be sure to check out our website . Be sure to follow us on MeWe , X , Instagram , Facebook, Pinterest, Linkedin and other social media platforms for the latest episodes and news. Background song Hurricane is used with permission from the band Dark Horse Flyer. 9 11 World Trade Center and Fighting Organized Crime. Special Episode. Attributions 9/11 FAQs Amazon.com Wikipedia

OOIDA has long called for hours-of-service flexibility. The DOT has a plan for two pilot programs to test changes to the hours-of-service regulations. But will they do the job? Also, those programs are part of a DOT plan to improve truckers' lives. We'll get into the details. Then, in 2011, we discovered electronic highway signs warning of “zombies ahead.” We'll explain what really happened. And in 2010, the maker of the steel used in the World Trade Center brought back some of it for a memorial – and 28 truckers carried it home. 0:00 – Hours of service: What does the DOT want to change? 09:55 – A deeper look at the DOT's trucking plan 24:15 – Zombies ahead? Signs say yes 38:43 – A look back: Convoy brings World Trade Center steel home

Who do you want to become? Today, I couldn’t be more excited to introduce someone truly special, Colin Egglesfield. You may know Colin as a Hollywood actor, a published author, and a dynamic MC. But there’s so much more to him. Colin is also a certified life coach, speaker, and founder of Beyond Impact, a transformational training company helping people step into their most confident and courageous selves. In this episode, Colin shares not only his career highlights, but the deeply personal journey he’s taken toward self-awareness, intentional living, and inner courage. This isn’t just about performance—it’s about transformation. So as you listen in, grab your pen and paper—because Colin is about to drop pure gold, and I promise, there’s at least one gem here you’ll want to implement right away. Enjoy the episode! We’ll be talking about: ➡ [0:00] Introduction➡ [03:04] Colin’s surprising confession: shy introvert to Hollywood star➡ [07:31] Discovering confidence through acting➡ [12:28] Character building➡ [17:23] Hollywood acting to being life coach➡ [22:15] Leading with your core values—and how to choose yours➡ [32:50] Being unshakeable➡ [41:00] Computer analogy➡ [45:36] Impacting 1 person ➡ [52:08] Tips on how to show up right now with clarity and confidence➡ [56:32] Colin’s books and how to connect➡ [1:02:43] Check out Colin’s online workshops➡ [1:04:48] Colin Egglesfield’s recommended book ➡ [1:05:27] Colin Egglesfield’s dream superpower ➡ [1:06:41] Colin Egglesfield’s favourite quote ➡ [1:07:29] Colin Egglesfield’ advice to his past self ➡ [1:08:29] Final thoughts Resources: Free Resource:➡ On-Camera Confidence Guide: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BFTpf2o_hzH2ZTWZTep_rTuxz3BUSSrR?usp=sharing (A practical guide for improving your video presence, plus access to a free discovery call with Colin) Book a discovery call with Colin Egglesfield ➡ https://73u2oa8fnqj.typeform.com/to/bWRcwuXw Workshop & Program:➡ Beyond Impact Mastery: 8-week virtual workshop to master confidence, connection, and communication.Learn more: https://beyondimpactmastery.com/join Books by Colin Egglesfield: ➡ Agile Artist: Life Lessons from Hollywood and Beyond: https://bit.ly/44TdohA ➡ My Manifestation Playbook: A 90-Day Guide to Living Intentionally: https://bit.ly/3SoyNb5 Available via colinegglesfield.com Recommended book: I AM, I Can, I will by Gerry Hussley: https://bit.ly/3FzOUzu Quotes: ➡ “Out beyond the ideas of right doing and wrongdoing, there is a field, I’ll meet you there” By Rumi About our guest: Colin Egglesfield is an actor, motivational speaker, certified life coach, podcast host, emcee, and two-time published author. With a twenty-year career in Hollywood and around the globe, he has starred in hit feature films and television shows. He now uses his performance expertise to help others master the art of communication through his Beyond Impact courses and workshops. Colin has faced the pressures of performing on some of the world’s biggest stages, survived three battles with cancer, and lived through the World Trade Center tragedy. He speaks from experience and from the heart about the power of communication, resilience, and creating a mindset that empowers you to Own Your Moment when it matters most. Connect with Colin Egglesfield: ➡ Linktree: linktr.ee/colinegglesfield Connect with Beyond Impact: ➡ Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@ColinEgglesfieldYouTube/podcasts; https://open.spotify.com/show/0xEOhwhmjH9w7jzv2OVJUd ➡ Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/beyondimpact.mastery/?hl=en ➡ Website: www.beyondimpactmastery.com Connect with Direct Selling Accelerator: ➡ Visit our website: https://www.auxano.global/ ➡ Subscribe to Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DirectSellingAccelerator ➡ Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/auxanomarketing/ ➡ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/auxanomarketing/ ➡ Email us at communnity_manager@auxano.global If you have any podcast suggestions or things you’d like to learn about specifically, please send us an email at the address above. And if you liked this episode, please don’t forget to subscribe, tune in, and share this podcast. Are you ready to join the Auxano Family to get live weekly training, support and the latest proven posting strategies to get leads and sales right now - find out more here https://go.auxano.globalSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On Sept. 11, 2001,

Send us a textWhen you realize that the shadowy groups behind the murder of JFK, 911 and operation covid 19 are the same people then your thinking on a whole new level. For over 18 years our guest Richard Gage has understood how these groups use covert tactics to subvert our minds and work endlessly behind the scenes to undermine our freedoms and sovereignty.Please welcome San Francisco Bay area architect Richard Gage, AIA, member of the American Institute of Architects and founder & former CEO of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. He now leads the charge for a new World Trade Center investigation along with his courageous wife Gail at https://richardgage911.org/SUPPORT THE SHOWBuy Me A Coffee http://buymeacoffee.com/DangerousinfopodcastSubscribeStar http://bit.ly/42Y0qM8Super Chat Tip https://bit.ly/42W7iZHBuzzsprout https://bit.ly/3m50hFTPaypal http://bit.ly/3Gv3ZjpPatreon http://bit.ly/3G37AVx SMART is the acronym that was created by technocrats that have setup the "internet of things" that will eventually enslave humanity to their needs. Support the showCONNECT WITH USWebsite https://www.dangerousinfopodcast.com/Guilded Chatroom http://bit.ly/42OayqyEmail the show dangerousinfopodcast@protonmail.comJoin mailing list http://bit.ly/3Kku5YtSOCIALSInstagram https://www.instagram.com/dangerousinfo/Twitter https://twitter.com/jaymz_jesseGab https://gab.com/JessejaymzTruth Social https://truthsocial.com/@jessejaymzWATCH LIVE YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DANGEROUSINFOPODCASTRumble https://rumble.com/c/DangerousInfoPodcast Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/dangerousinfopodcastPilled https://pilled.net/profile/144176Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DangerousInfoPodcast/BitChute: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/egnticQyZgxDCloutHub https://clouthub.com/DangerousINFOpodcastDLive https://...

The title fits, but not necessarily for the reasons you imagine. Barbara Leigh grew up in Wisconsin where she attended college and had a successful career. She tells us about her life and discusses getting married, having two children and over time watching her life choices basically and totally destroy her self esteem.   Barbara tells us how she, while growing up, was constantly described as a “smart girl”. She helped many figure out answers and learned along the way how to observe and research to learn whatever she needed to know. In 1995 when the internet was just coming into our sphere of experience, Barbara learned about it and created web pages and websites for the nonprofit for which she worked. Even with all the technical knowledge she amassed it took many years before she realized that even with all her smarts she was becoming a person who was being reshaped by a partner with his own low esteem and who constantly blamed her for everything that went wrong.   Eventually Barbara realized that something was wrong and began to look in ernest at her life and behavior. She realized that she had to make choices and regain her own self confidence and constructive view of herself. She changed her life and outlook and began growing again emotionally. Barbara tells us about her journey and even includes lessons she learned and wants to pass on to others.   In 2024 Barbara wrote and published her book, “Why Smart Girls Get Into Bad Relationships and How Not To Do It Again”. She is quick to point out that the book is not just for women. It is for anyone who may be facing a “bad relationship”. Barbara shares nine conclusions and thoughts from the book that illustrate why her writings can be so important for so many.   This episode is full of many great life lessons and observations. I do hope you not only enjoy it, but that you also gain some positive life choice ideas from it.     About the Guest:   Barbara Leigh grew up on a small dairy farm in Wisconsin and was considered in school to be a smart girl. She was not the type to get in trouble or make bad decisions. She was involved in lots of activities and did well in school.   She went off to Ripon College where she majored in Speech Communication and worked in the library. After graduation, she got a job in a library at a nonprofit. While working toward a Masters in Library and Information Science at UW-Milwaukee in 1995, she was taking an online searching class and was recruited to build a web site for her employer, being one of only a few employees that had even heard of the World Wide Web.   From there, Barbara built a career as a web developer and eventually moved to online learning and LMS integrations. In each career step she moved toward content, but eventually was directed back to the technical.   In the midst of all that, Barbara got married and had two children. She entered and contributed to bad relationships in her marriage, career and family until one day she decided to just stop. She has spent the last twenty years figuring out what it means to stop, how to continue living, and how to do it better. In 2024, she published a book, Why Smart Girls Get Into Bad Relationships and How Not To Do It Again, and in 2025, she took early retirement to get fully into content and do more writing. She currently writes the Helpfulmess blog which posts weekly. Ways to connect with Barbara:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/barbaraleighauthor/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barbaraleighauthor Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/barbaraleighauthor.bsky.social Website: https://www.barbaraleighauthor.com     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be today, around the world or in space, whatever the case happens to be, we're all in space anyway, so I guess that counts for something. But I'm really glad that you are here, and we're really going to have, I think, an interesting conversation today, because we, we have a person who has written an interesting book, at least. I think it's an interesting book. The title of the book is, why do smart girls get into bad relationships, and how to and how not to do it again. I think that's an interesting title. Smart Girls, I gotta say, though, Barbara, who is our guest, Barbara Leigh, I don't know. I think they're more than smart girls that get into bad relationships or just do dumb things. I don't know. Why is it that most people do dumb things, but that's a different story, and probably not what we're really going to cover today. But anyway, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and we're glad you're   Barbara Leigh ** 02:19 here. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate   Michael Hingson ** 02:23 it. Yeah, well, it is probably true. Why do, why do so many people get into challenges? Ah, but we cope with what we have to right? Yes, we do. Well. Well, I'm glad you're here. Thanks for for being here and being on unstoppable mindset. Really looking forward to having a chance to really chat. Why don't we start? If we can by you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Barbara growing up and all that. Alright, well, I grew up. How's that for a great way to start.   Barbara Leigh ** 02:52 That's a great, great way to start. I grew up on a small dairy farm in Wisconsin. I had two brothers and a sister, mom and dad and, you know, cats and a dog and cows. I lived in a small community. Everybody knew each other. Nothing really exciting about my childhood. I was in 4h and I was in lots of activities in school. I did great in school, and I was wildly shy as a small child, but I managed to get comfortable enough with that by being a 4h officer and being in in leadership positions in the activities that I was in. I went to off to college in Ripon, and I been busy working on being me ever since,   Michael Hingson ** 03:56 well, so you, you, you don't sound like you're very shy today,   Barbara Leigh ** 04:06 like I said, I tried to get past that. I'm still wildly introverted, but I'm at least, you know, able to speak in public. That's a   Michael Hingson ** 04:15 start. Well, that's a good you know, I'm I've always been amazed, and I hear it so often that the top fear today is public speaking. And I've never really, I know it's me, but I've never understood why it is, because I've always been somewhat used to doing it, but I think that people approach public speaking oftentimes with kind of the wrong idea, because I find that if people fear it, what they're really saying is they're afraid of the audience and what the audience might do. But I find that audiences generally don't tend to really want to view a speaker as being bad. They want speaker. To succeed. So it's always been a puzzlement to be as to why people are afraid of public speaking.   Barbara Leigh ** 05:07 Yeah, that is true. I was a Speech Communication major in college, and had to take public speaking as a course, and we had a guy in there that was just shook. His whole body. Shook it when he started out, and he by the end of the course, he was the best speaker there. I think he just needed to practice doing it and find out it's not so bad.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 Well, what did he do? What do you have any notion of what what really eliminated his fear?   Barbara Leigh ** 05:41 I think he just got better each time. I think it really was just just getting up in front of people and finding out, yeah, they aren't gonna do anything. They're trying to do the same thing as me. They're trying to learn public speaking, and they're fine.   Michael Hingson ** 05:56 That's cool. Well, I know when I was a program director at our campus radio station at UC Irvine, I wanted everyone to listen to their their own shows. So we we wanted them to record the shows which they wouldn't do. So the engineer and I arranged for that to get done, and we made people listen to their shows, take the cassettes home and listen to them. And as I think about it, I think that probably more often than not, some of these people were in radio because they didn't have to stand up in front of an audience, and they didn't think about being in front of an audience and speaking so much. And so they did what they did, but when they were compelled, if you will, to listen to themselves, they got better. And they got better because they then heard what everybody else is hearing, and they taught themselves that they could really do better than than they thought they were doing, and that they thought that they could do. And I think that really makes a lot of difference. And some of those people actually ended up going into broadcasting as a as a career,   Barbara Leigh ** 07:01 that's great. Yeah, it really is. It's just a matter of getting used to your own voice. I mean, some people just really got annoyed, I guess is the word at their own voice, and they were like, I don't sound like that. Well, you don't sound like yourself inside your head. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:27 yeah. I know that when I hear myself talk, I do know that I sound different than I think I sound. And so again, that's part of what I work on. When I listen to recorded speeches, and I listen to what I say and how I say it, because I know what audiences like when they hear a speaker, so it gives me something to work toward. And that's a good thing. Yeah. So it is kind of fun. So you went off to school, you were in high school and all that and and did what? What people do in high school, I assume,   Barbara Leigh ** 08:07 yep, lots of groups. I was in library club and let's see Spanish club and music, musical and choir and various things. Yeah, normal stuff, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:23 yeah. I did some of that. I was in the science club, and there was a math club. Wasn't in too many clubs, but I was in those two and and had a lot of fun with that. So it's, it's a good thing. And then, of course, as many of us do, then you went on to college. Where did you go to college? Ripping College. I've never heard of that college,   Barbara Leigh ** 08:49 very small liberal arts college,   Michael Hingson ** 08:52 which is all the better I am. I'm a fan of smaller colleges. I read in the book David and Goliath, the guy who invented the tipping point, wrote this book, and he talks about the fact that if more people would go to small colleges, they would discover that they could actually be kind of a larger fish in a small pond, rather than being a fish that isn't necessarily as large a fish in a very large pond. So the value of people going to to places that are smaller adds a lot of value, and you do get a lot more attention. And that's why, one of the reasons I think I went to UC Irvine, we had 2200 excuse me, 2700 students when I went there. Now there are 32,000 freshmen. My gosh, I can't believe how large it is. No, it's University California, Irvine UCI, which they always say lovingly, really, truly means under construction indefinitely. They're always building new things on the college. So.   Barbara Leigh ** 10:01 Yeah, ripen is, is under 1000 students total. And   Michael Hingson ** 10:07 what did you major in? I knew all my professors. It   10:09 was great. And   Michael Hingson ** 10:10 that's, that's cool. And I did as well. I and I got to know some of them very well. Actually, a couple, one of them even came to my wedding when my wife and I got married. Some, seven or eight, well, eight years after I graduated, or, well, six years after I graduated, but he, we invited him, and he came to the wedding. So that was kind of cool. What did you major in   Barbara Leigh ** 10:33 speech communication with a religion minor? All right.   Michael Hingson ** 10:37 Wow, that's an interesting combination. Why? Why a religion minor with with that religion   Barbara Leigh ** 10:43 has always intrigued me. I guess it's I am interested in people, and religion has such a strong effect on people, and so I really just wanted to learn more about various religions and and how they work.   Michael Hingson ** 11:01 So what do you what do you think about religion and our world today, and how much of an effect it it has?   Barbara Leigh ** 11:11 It's probably very big question. Yes, yes, I have that's like, one of the ideas for one of my next books is to dig into that I'm I have several ideas of things I want to cover, and that's one of them. But, yeah, it just it floors me that there can be so much variation in people who seem to believe the same things.   Michael Hingson ** 11:44 Yeah, yeah. It is. It is fascinating. I I've said ever since escaping from the World Trade Center on September 11, that what happened, no matter what those terrorists say, was not a reflection on the whole world of Islam and the Muslim faith, those were thugs who decided that they wanted to try to make the world bend to their will, if you will, and and they they did a pretty good job for a little while, but it wasn't a religious war, because I think most Muslims are not that way. That's true, and we shouldn't demonize that religion as such, especially since we could always go back and talk about the crusades in, you know what, 1066, and so on. And if we want to talk about Christianity and what it did, yeah, the reality is, everybody tries to do things in the name of religion, and it just doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't. But people try to justify anyway, which is, which is truly unfortunate. Well, so what did you do after you got a degree?   Barbara Leigh ** 12:47 Oh, let's see. I went off to Well, I got married. There you go, after graduation, and moved to the town where my my husband was living, and we I started working at K Mart, and from there, I went to outlet mall. I was the retail store manager, and then I got my job at a nonprofit, and I've been at that nonprofit for 34 years, until I retired, just not too long ago.   Michael Hingson ** 13:24 Wow. What's the nonprofit? Or can you say   Barbara Leigh ** 13:28 it's the international foundation of employee benefit plans? Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 13:33 well, that sounds pretty useful. You were there a long time, huh? I was wow.   Barbara Leigh ** 13:39 I moved around to multiple departments, but I was able to keep growing later, so I stayed   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 so you you were there 34 years. Wow, that is a long time. What? What did you What did you learn about life being there for so long? Wow, I was out for a general question, yeah.   Barbara Leigh ** 14:06 Well, I learned, boy, so many things I have. The foundation is an Educational Association. So I learned the actual benefits. Part of it, I have a Certified Employee Benefit Specialist designation, but also I learned a lot about people and work environments and and getting along with people, and I learned a lot about technology when I started at the foundation the the World Wide Web was not public yet, and while I was there, I was going to graduate school at UW Milwaukee. I. For library and information science. And while I was doing that, I was taking a an online searching course. And my boss, well, I worked in the library, so my boss asked me if I would create a website for the foundation, because nobody else in the building really had even heard of the World Wide Web yet. Yeah. So I learned all about web development and programming and all of that, just because I happened to be the only one that   Michael Hingson ** 15:40 knew, and using tools like Netscape, remember Netscape? Oh, yes, absolutely,   Barbara Leigh ** 15:50 yeah, wow. So yeah, I learned a lot of that, and then from from the library, I went to it, and was in a web developer for many years, and then from it, I went to educational programs where I was working with our learning management system and the integration with with our association management system. So I was, I was doing integrations, basically and but the things that I learned in technology careers that have helped me thus far have been I was doing a lot of troubleshooting. So I would, you know, a lot of times, you know, if you're in technology, no garbage in, garbage out. So when I get to a problem, I say, you know, there's this, there's garbage coming out, or there's nothing coming out at all. And I work back word through the process to get to the source data. And learning that you finding the source data and making sure that the source data is correct is really important. So I learned about a lot about working my way through systems to find that and also making sure that the systems work. So that has helped me a lot in in my life, because when I got into the situation where I needed to write this book about I managed to work my way back to the source of of the problem. And so the the source of the problem was my beliefs about me, about relationships, about other people. And so it was really helpful for me to have that process already in place in my brain, that I could just work my way back to that and Okay, now I can start from better data.   Michael Hingson ** 18:13 Yeah, do you think that working a lot in technology and perhaps some of the other areas where you worked. Do you think that that taught you more about how to observe and look at things and better be able to analyze them and and remembering them? I just find that so often people don't observe things. And I think learning to observe is extremely important to do   Barbara Leigh ** 18:45 absolutely yes, yes, when that's that's like all of my career was observing and and like you said, analyzing, being able to put what I've observed into what I want to happen, or what I would I need to communicate with other people. I think a lot of my career was, was connecting the right people to the right either technology or the or the other people, or just get making those connections.   Michael Hingson ** 19:30 But you had to learn how to observe people and draw conclusions and get that information to make that happen.   Barbara Leigh ** 19:38 Oh yes. And, you know, it's a process, just in growing up and watching people in general. Like I said, you know, religion was, was my thing, because people fascinate me. So I I've always been a people watcher, not like, go sit at the mall and watch people, but, I mean, yeah. I just really try to understand where people are coming from. And I think once I was in a technology career, it was even more important, because a lot of times in those careers people don't expect the technology person to be able to do that, and for me, that was the most important part with understanding the people, understanding what they wanted, what they were actually saying was not exactly what they wanted, and to try to get it get to what they wanted, and then to work with the system to be able to get what they wanted to come out correctly.   Michael Hingson ** 20:53 How did you discover that? How did you discover that people weren't necessarily saying what they really wanted, or that somehow it wasn't being articulated on it. And I understand that's a really tricky sort of thing. I know in asking myself that I just kind of respond by saying, it's just something you gain from a lot of experience, but you have to think about it. But you know, what do you think   Barbara Leigh ** 21:21 exactly? It's trial and error. You keep having people ask you for one thing and then expecting something else, until you figure out that you know what that's really not what they want, and to get them to verbalize, okay, what is it you want coming out of this? Is it? It's tricky.   Michael Hingson ** 21:47 Yeah, yeah, it is and, and it is something where you got to be pretty careful about how you do it and, and to whom you you focus your attentions to make that happen. Or if you've got some people who are difficult to deal with, and again, I guess that that helps you stretch and grow and you learn how to even deal with those people a little bit better, so that they're comfortable in interacting with you.   Barbara Leigh ** 22:14 Yeah, absolutely. But a big part of my job is making people feel comfortable enough to talk to me and, you know, and a lot of times when I would get a project, I would go to the person that that's using, whatever it is, and ask them, okay, you know, where are you getting this data? What do you want it to look like? And, you know, and ask them deeper questions. And, and these are often the people who are, you know, low man on the totem pole, and don't ever get asked, but those are the people that I needed to get to to find out what you know, where things were coming from, to actually give them what was going to work for them.   Michael Hingson ** 23:10 And that's interesting. You're saying, like, the low person on the totem pole doesn't get asked, and they're the ones that would love to be asked to be able to offer their opinions, so that that opens up whole new opportunities when you convey that you're you're willing to listen, and of course, that also then deals with the whole issue of trust. Because if they tell you something and say, Well, I want this incompetence, and you have to keep it that way. Yes, absolutely, trust is, is such a fleeting thing today, even though it's all around us, everywhere we go And everywhere we look. I mean, we trust that the roofs on our houses aren't going to collapse while we're doing this interview, this well, this conversation, and we trust that the internet is going to continue to work. It might, we'll see. But, but we trust in so many ways, but yet, unfortunately, we also confront, or are confronted by situations that try to teach us not to trust and to be close to trust, which is too bad. Yeah, one of the things that, that, that I talk about, actually, in my latest book, live like a guide dog, is trust. I talk about the fact that, in general, the difference between a dog and a person is while dogs love unconditionally, and I think that's true, although they can be taught not to, obviously, but while dogs love unconditionally, they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between a dog and a person is that dogs are much more open to trust because we have just learned, or we've drawn the conclusion that we can't trust people, and so we lose that skill of being open to trust and trust. Truly learning how to determine whether we can trust any individual or not, rather than just saying we're not going to trust   Barbara Leigh ** 25:07 Right, absolutely, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:10 which is, you know, which is so unfortunate? Well, I'm sure you've, you've encountered that a lot.   Barbara Leigh ** 25:17 I have, indeed, and you know that's that was part of my process, was learning how to trust again. And that's a slow, slow, hard process.   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 What, what caused you to start to learn not to trust? What? What happened in your life?   Barbara Leigh ** 25:38 Okay? Well, I want to talk about it, but, well, I won't go into too deep a detail, but yeah, I I was in a relationship where, you know, I was with a very a person has low self esteem, and because of that, I would get told that things were my fault, or things were if I hadn't done this, or if anything That happened really was was somehow brought back to me and as a person with higher self esteem, I took that as my personal responsibility, rather than looking at it as no, that's really Your choice, not, not something that I could cause, and that just kept eroding away at my confidence, and it ended up with me having no self esteem whatsoever. Wow. And then we, you know, I hit a point where an event happened, and I, you know, my brain went, nope, I don't deserve that. And that's where the light switch flipped, and I was to, you know, then I started looking around and going, you know what? I didn't deserve that, either or that, and that was not about me. And so then I started to measure against that, and go, Okay, I can set up boundaries now, because this is behavior that I won't accept anymore. And I was able to start making boundaries, and I was able to start standing up for myself. And, you know, as as that process went on, I was able to, I guess, it was motivate myself just by connecting, reconnecting with that higher self esteem person that I had been earlier. And so I would, you know, it honestly took a very long time, because I was at nothing, and at that point, I made a conscious effort to be gentle with myself and to be patient with myself and to accept myself and so with those being kind to myself thoughts, that's how I was able to move forward. And like I said, moving forward started motivating me, and I was able to bring myself back up to a higher self confidence.   Michael Hingson ** 29:02 Did you get? Oh, go ahead. Oh,   Barbara Leigh ** 29:04 but yeah. The the trust being gone was a trust for not just the person I was in a relationship with, but for so many things around me because I didn't trust myself. I didn't trust what I was believing about myself.   Michael Hingson ** 29:28 Did you hate yourself?   Barbara Leigh ** 29:31 I would not say that. I would say I just didn't understand myself. I would like I said, when I got to the bottom, I was able to say, I don't deserve that, so I wouldn't say hated myself. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:48 that's why I asked the question, because that was my impression of what from what you were saying. It wasn't a hate or a dislike, it was a recognition of what should be and what. And then how to deal with it?   Barbara Leigh ** 30:02 Yep, I was, you know, because I got there and, you know, the light switch went on, and I was like, how did I get here? How did this even happen? You know, it just, I couldn't understand.   Michael Hingson ** 30:18 But as you, as you progressed and as you learned about yourself, and that, of course, was part of it, is that you were learning about yourself and bringing yourself back the person you had a relationship with you weren't able to to, I gather, make positive steps to get them to to be a lot better than they were.   Barbara Leigh ** 30:43 That was not my focus. My focus was no boundaries, so that they couldn't hurt me anymore,   Michael Hingson ** 30:52 right, right? It wasn't a matter of you're trying to heal them, but setting boundaries and it would have it would have been nice if they had recognized what was going on. But that was the difference, is that you recognized and they did not right.   Barbara Leigh ** 31:06 And honestly, once I got to a place where I was back to being who I felt like me, he was able to look at that and take some motivation from that, and he actually went and got help through therapy as well. So it actually turned out way better than than expected, but   Michael Hingson ** 31:41 yeah, so are you guys still married? Yes, we are. Well, there you go. Okay, and that was what I was curious about. So he he did. It wasn't you can't, you can't fix everything because people have to fix themselves. But he was able to recognize that which was, which is so cool,   Barbara Leigh ** 32:02 yeah, honestly, I moved out twice. So, I mean, like I said, I set boundaries, yeah, but we made it work. I mean, like, like I said, when I first made the change I did. I was not strong enough to move to be on my own. I just wasn't. And so, you know, I just tried to be as patient with myself as possible, and and I just kept, kept those boundaries and okay, you can't talk to me like that. That's just not going to work. And as I moved forward, he kind of came along with me   Michael Hingson ** 32:47 well, and it sounds like you're both the better for it today.   Barbara Leigh ** 32:54 Oh, absolutely, yes, we've come a long way. I wouldn't say we're perfect for sure, but   Michael Hingson ** 33:01 it's a it's a process. Yes, it is. So what does he do for work or for a living?   Barbara Leigh ** 33:08 He is a sales person for a home improvement company.   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 Ah, ah, Home Improvement. Tim, the tool man, Taylor, but that's another story. Oh, gosh. Well, that's pretty cool. And does he do well at selling?   Barbara Leigh ** 33:25 Yes, he does that. He had his own business for for many years, and so it just comes pretty naturally to him.   Michael Hingson ** 33:34 Well, at the same time, if you're going to be good at sales, you have to learn to observe and and not take things too personally sometimes as well. I learned a lot about sales when I was confronted by needing to go into sales or finding another job, and then I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and one of my favorite observations about sales is that the best salespeople are really counselors. They're teachers. They guide you in and help you make the right decision, rather than just trying to force something on you, which doesn't mean that they're not trying to make $1 and sell products, but you can also find that your product might not be what somebody wants, and if you push them into buying it, that's going to cost to cost you in the end anyway,   Barbara Leigh ** 34:24 right? And that's why he makes a good salesman, because he was he, he did the work for for 15 years, and at at his own company, and then he went, moved to sales, and just because his body was wearing out, and for because he knows how the product works, how it goes on the house or whatever, he can explain that to the customer, and that makes it so much easier for them to understand, you know, why they need what they need, and how it works.   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Yeah. Yeah, and I have found that the better sales people really do understand how the product works, and they take the time to keep up with things, because that's going to make them better at what they do. Yes. So now you have children. How many children?   Barbara Leigh ** 35:16 Two, girl and a boy, and how old are they? 29 and 25   Michael Hingson ** 35:23 oh, they're just kids.   35:24 They're just kids   Michael Hingson ** 35:28 and and I know if they've gone into sales just checking no okay,   Barbara Leigh ** 35:36 and have no interest in doing that, what do they do? My daughter works in customer service, and my son is Air National Guard   Michael Hingson ** 35:47 member. Oh, okay, so it's hopefully it sounds like both of them have some really decent self esteem. Yes, they they learned that along the way from the two of you, which is good, which is a positive thing, which is, which is pretty cool, yeah. So you have retired from being with a nonprofit. You said you were there for 34 years, and what caused you to retire   Barbara Leigh ** 36:17 writing this book, I was, I'm looking at writing more and, you know, doing marketing and doing all the things book has been a lot to do and work full time, yeah, so I decided to give, give it my all.   Michael Hingson ** 36:35 Did you self publish or does the publisher publish it? Okay, yeah, which makes even more of a marketing responsibility for you. Although I think publishers are pushing more for most authors to do more to market their own books, rather than the publishers helping as much as perhaps they could. But nevertheless, well, tell us about the book. Then tell us, if you would tell us about that.   Barbara Leigh ** 37:01 Oh, it's why smart girls get into bad relationships, and how not to do it again. I started out with, well, basically the book is for people who want better relationships, not just women, but I. I started out with a smart girl title, because that is something I identify with. I think of it as an identity, because a lot of books on relationships are books written from the perspective of therapists or the perspective of people who have been abused or some kind of trauma or have addictions or something like that, and that's not, that's not who I am. And so I was trying to give a voice to, you know, average people have these problems too. So the smart girl identity is more about, really, like in high school, people would you know, who didn't know me? Well, what time I yearbook? You're so smart. Or people at work, thank you for fixing that. You're so smart, right? And I believed that. And what I believed was that reasonable humans make reasonable choices, and that's not always true, and so when I wrote the book here, or actually when I when I hit the bottom and I started looking back, I was like, I don't know how I got here. So how did I get here? I went through the process. I figured out that my beliefs weren't quite right, and they sounded good, but when I actually put them to action. They really didn't work. So the book is my process of of getting from bottom of the barrel self esteem back up to high self esteem, and looking at those beliefs and rewriting them.   Michael Hingson ** 39:23 So, um, how so like some of your beliefs that that didn't work. For example,   Barbara Leigh ** 39:28 I will read you a few of them if you don't mind. Okay, so, so you get the idea of where, where this goes. So Belief number there's nine of them. Belief number one, I can trust myself became, I can trust myself when I am being honest with myself, because I was lying to myself quite a bit of the time. It turns out, number two, I am a good helpful person became, I am a good helpful person, but that is not where I find my. Value, and that kind of blew me out of the water when I figured that one out. Number three, I'm smart, but I can't appear smarter than my partner. And that's where the focus on women comes in. It's kind of looks at the social oppression of women and how that affects your beliefs. You know, if you believe that stuff so, number three, became, I am smart and I don't have to hide it. Number four, I must guard my relationship, not only from outside, but from inside to became, I must guard my own boundaries to maintain my mental health and stay true to me. Number five, it is important to keep things steady and stable became keeping things steady and stable doesn't allow me to grow. Fear blocks my growth. Embracing the uncomfortable for a time helps me become better. That one was a hard one to learn how bad number six, self care is indulgent and not a priority. Became, self care is a high priority if I don't care take care of me, I can't be good at caring for anyone else. Numbers seven, I have emotional muscle, and I can muscle through anything became I have emotional muscle and I can use it to pull out of negative thoughts. I don't need to deny my emotions or wallow in them. Just recognize them, feel them, and continue to move all the way through them, and this one kind of hits home for my daughter. My daughter was diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis at the age of 20 months, and she used her emotional muscle to muscle through her pain, because she didn't want to see the reaction of people feeling sorry for her, and so she had a lot of of using that emotional muscle to just not show people her pain and and that has been something that we've had to work on for a long time.   Michael Hingson ** 42:33 What did she discover? What did she finally do?   Barbara Leigh ** 42:37 Well, it's been a process, but she's finally actually showing her pain. She because, like she's had a cyst that burst in it. It wrapped around some things, and she couldn't tell the doctor in charge that that she was having that much pain. She she didn't make it a 10 on the pain scale. So the doctor didn't think that she was that, that these complications had happened, because most people couldn't even walk with this pain, but she could, because she's super high pain tolerance. Yeah, and, you know, she learned that she doesn't need to hide her pain, which was, which was pretty life shaking for her, and she's learned that, you know, she can actually tell her doctors, yes, I'm, I'm actually having some pain, and I I really need to have you work on this or or give me medication for this, or whatever. But, yeah, she's she's really come a long way as far as being honest with herself and with other people. Yeah, let's see. Number eight, I can rely on my smartness to figure it out became I can rely on my smartness and problem solving ability. But life isn't always logical. Sometimes I'm starting starting from a faulty belief I don't have to be perfect. It's okay to ask for help when I don't understand and get stuck. And that one it, it seems very obvious, but that one was really ingrained and kept coming up in different ways. Number nine, partial is enough, I can and should fill in. The rest became I am a whole person with my own thoughts, emotions, talents, hopes, dreams and goals. So if I want to be in a relationship, my significant other should see me as a whole person and should be a whole person themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 45:10 Wow, some pretty deep concepts, needless to say, Yeah, but by the same but by the same token, you were willing to step back and observe and think about yourself, so you were able to to create these conclusions and make these changes, which is what it's really all about?   Barbara Leigh ** 45:36 Yeah, I think that's what's different about my book, is that it's not written by a therapist or somebody who's at the other side. It's somebody who's actually in it, um, digging through it and and feeling it and it makes the, you know, it. I pulled apart the process and was, you know, you have to hit all of the things that the you know, the mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, social, all, all of the things to hold those beliefs out of all of the different places in your life where they stuck.   Michael Hingson ** 46:23 You think that people really have to, how do I say this? Go to the bottom or hit rock bottom before they can really start to learn?   Barbara Leigh ** 46:33 I hope not.   Michael Hingson ** 46:38 You did and I but I hear it a lot you really don't know until you hit rock bottom. And I'm not sure I totally buy that. It really depends on what you're able to learn and what you're able what conclusions you're able to draw. But a lot of times hitting rock bottom, if you will, maybe emotionally at least, brings people to where they need to be. But I am with you. I hope that it isn't always that way, and it doesn't need to always be that way,   Barbara Leigh ** 47:06 right? I think there's, there's different rock bottoms, you know? It's I got to the point where I needed to learn, and I learned, and that may not be what you and I would view as rock bottom to someone else, you know, but it's, you know, I finally, I finally flip the switch. And that's, you know, somebody else may have a switch at a different level than   Michael Hingson ** 47:40 or they may not see that there's a switch to flip which is, which is all about choice, yep. So what got you started down the road of writing the book?   Barbara Leigh ** 47:54 To be honest, I never thought I would write a book that was never, you know, a big goal in life for me, and I think it's totally a God thing, because I was, you know, my my daughter's been telling me, you need to write a book. You need to write a book for, you know, years. And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure, no product. And then all of a sudden it was time to write the book. And I was like, I don't know why it's time to write the book, but it's time to write the book. And honestly, it it flowed. I mean, I had all these great ideas for a book, and they went poof out the window when I wanted to start writing. I I just kind of sketched out an outline that was terrible, and showed it to a few people, and they're like, sure, you go. And I threw it away and just started writing. And once I started writing, it, it flowed. It actually just came out. And once I was in it a little, you know, a few chapters in, then I was able to organize it and figure out what I wanted to say and make an outline. But I couldn't do any of that until I just started writing. So I don't know, it was odd. And then I gave it to my son. I gave, like, the first two, two chapters, probably, to my son, and he read it, and he pushed it back over the table at me, and said big words. And I was like, okay, so I took it and I took out all the big words, and I made it more conversational. And now everybody who who has read it and and talk to me is like, you know, it just feels like a conversation with a good friend over a cup of   Michael Hingson ** 49:57 coffee. There you go for   Barbara Leigh ** 49:59 a glass of. Wine. So that's where it   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 got, yeah, it's, it's about not preaching, but presenting and teaching in a in a non confrontive way, which is what it's really about, which is what sales is about, Yeah, but that was very observant on his part to say that, yeah,   Barbara Leigh ** 50:24 you made it so much better.   Michael Hingson ** 50:28 When I wrote thunder dog, my first book I was I wrote it with someone. We collaborated. I had worked on it for a long time, or at least worked on ideas. And then Susie Flory called one day and she wanted, she was writing her own book, and she said, Tell me your story. And after I did, she said, You should write your own book, and I'll help you do it. And she did, one of the things that we had was that the book is about being in the World Trade Center, but it's also a lot about my life. And when we got it to the editor, because her agent, who became my agent, Chip McGregor, was able to sell it to Thomas Nelson publishing, which is now part of HarperCollins. But the editor said, My problem with this book is the transitions. And kind of said, well, what do you mean? He said, Well, you talk at the beginning of each chapter about an event on September 11, and then you you go back in your life, but you don't transition between the two. And then when you come back, you don't transition. And I get lost. And when he described that, it just immediately clicked what he was saying. And I actually then spent a weekend putting transitions in every chapter at the right places. And when he read that, he said, this is perfect. This is exactly what I was talking about. And when one of the major reviewers of the book, Kirkus, which reviews books for publishers and libraries and so on, when they reviewed it, they said one of the most powerful parts about it were the transitions. And so I appreciate what your son said, because sometimes the unexpected thing that someone says is what sends you down a road to make it a much better thought process and a much better book or a much better whatever than it would have been otherwise.   Barbara Leigh ** 52:22 Yeah, absolutely. I had a friend from college read it from an author perspective. So she's, she's written five books, and she gave me just, you know, really, she wrote fiction books so they weren't the same, but she gave me just really good authoring advice. As far as you know, you were used this word too many times, you know, things like that. And that was really, really helpful too to just, oh, okay, I get it. That would make it much more smooth. And you know, that was really helpful for me too, and it's just just to get feedback in any capacity is so helpful, I think,   Michael Hingson ** 53:12 well, and all of those comments that people give you help teach you how to write better. Yeah, absolutely. How has writing the book changed your perspective?   Barbara Leigh ** 53:24 Wow. Well, first thing, I had no idea about writing books or publishing or marketing or any of that, so that's been a whole big learning curve. But as far as you know, even even writing through the book helped teach me some things about the process as well. Just as far as relationships go, and talking through it with I had about a dozen people reading it at chapter by chapter as I got them done and and having getting that feedback from them, as far as you know, how it how it affected them, and it was really just so, I guess, helpful for me to learn what other people were were thinking when they're reading it. Because, you know, some of the things had never occurred to me, some of the things were for from friends who had been through some kind of childhood trauma. And I was kind of looking at, okay, I get what you're saying, and I think this that what you're telling me is you. This part is coming from your childhood trauma, but this other part is definitely something that I could add to my book, and I didn't want to make my book about trauma, because it really in my mind, was for the person that was just an average person, living an average life, having average relationship. However, my friends who have had childhood trauma have actually been the most affected by my book, which I find fascinating.   Michael Hingson ** 55:42 That's that's interesting, but it does make sense, because clearly you're trying to help people be more open about themselves, to themselves. And the people that that do that are the people that have been in situations where maybe they haven't, and they maybe intellectually realize that they need to grow and change, but they hadn't totally emotionally adopted that stance, and so you help them with that, which is cool.   Barbara Leigh ** 56:11 Yep, that's something I was expecting for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 56:15 No, understand. Now you have a blog also right, called helpfulness. Why is why is it called helpfulness? And what is it about?   Barbara Leigh ** 56:24 It is called helpful mess because when I was writing this book, I was writing about helpfulness and how that kind of steered me in the wrong direction, because that's where I was finding my value, and I had a typo that made it helpful. Mess, mess. Yeah, I said related to that mess. Yeah, it's like, that messy part. That's me. I So related to that that I ground onto that word. I was like, Okay, this word is mine,   Michael Hingson ** 56:56 well, and it really goes right along with the book and everything we've talked about today. Needless to say, Have you thought about doing things like starting a coaching program? Or do you do any of that?   Barbara Leigh ** 57:12 I do not. My daughter is, she is a life coach, and she has started a holistic nutrition program. So she's kind of doing that, that thing and, and I've never really been interested in doing that kind of thing. So I like you go. I will help you.   Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Okay, well, that's fair. I think we, we all do what we we feel we're best at, and it may come to the time where you'll suddenly discover that you're really better at it than you think, and that you could, you could coach people, or maybe not, but that's really something to look at.   Barbara Leigh ** 57:55 Yeah, I do want to focus on my writing for a while, but you know, when she's done with her program, maybe we'll get something   Michael Hingson ** 58:01 together. Well, there you go, and she lives close to you. Yeah,   Barbara Leigh ** 58:08 she's a half hour early, all right, so   Michael Hingson ** 58:10 Wisconsin home to everywhere, which is pretty cool. Well, so what would you advise? What kind of advice would you give to someone who's going through a lot of the things that you've gone through and so on? What would be the first thing that you would say to them to hopefully get them started down a different path of of life, rather than thinking so little of themselves and not really wanting to move forward,   Barbara Leigh ** 58:39 I would tell them they have options. You can leave your your value is not in how helpful you are, and be gentle and be kind to yourself and accept that you may not be coming from a belief that is true. And look, you know, try to see when you feel something that right, kind of off. Kind of look at your beliefs and you know, where is this coming from? Because a lot of times you can find it if you look hard enough, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:31 it's about teaching people to truly develop the skill of self analysis, if you will. Yeah, which is something that we, we all ought to do more of we, we tend not to really look at ourselves. And it goes back to the same thing as the whole concept of the fear of public speaking, if we, if we step out of ourselves and look at what happened, we beat up on ourselves rather than recognize. Amazing. This is a teaching moment, and we can learn from it, rather than allowing it to just be something that beats us   Barbara Leigh ** 1:00:07 up. Yes, absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10 which makes a lot of sense. Well, I want to thank you for doing this. We've been we've been at this about an hour. Can you believe it? But I really enjoyed having you talk about it. Do you have any kind of last minute thoughts that you want to convey to people?   Barbara Leigh ** 1:00:30 Well, let's see. I guess if you think reasonable humans make reasonable choices, maybe rethink that. If you want to find my book, you can find it at my website. Let's see   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:48 and what's your website?   Barbara Leigh ** 1:00:51 Barbara Lee, author.com and Lee is l, e, i, G, H,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:56 so it's Barbara Lee, author.com, yeah, cool. Well, I hope people will find it, and we'll, we'll read it. Is it's available? Is it a hard copy or ebook, or both, or both? Okay,   Barbara Leigh ** 1:01:16 and available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble Ingram, Apple, Google, not all the places   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:24 they're they're an audible version or an audio version,   Barbara Leigh ** 1:01:27 not yet something to work on asking, yeah, absolutely. I know I have two people that have been asking, and I well, I have to start making money before I can spend money on that.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:43 Yeah, I hear you well, unless you read it yourself, which cuts the cost way down.   Barbara Leigh ** 1:01:49 Yeah, try that. I have no idea how to do that either, so that, you know, has added to my my pile of things I need to learn.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:56 There you go. It's an adventure.   Barbara Leigh ** 1:01:57 Yes, absolutely, it's on the list. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:00 Barbara, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope that this has been not only enjoyable, but educational and worth your time. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to get your your thoughts about this. So any of you who would we'd love to hear from you, please email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really appreciate those reviews, and especially we love five star reviews. We want positive reviews, but you give us your honest thoughts. We love that. We appreciate it, and we value your comments very highly. If you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. And if, by the way, you aren't sure how to review or whatever, or you want to find another place to hear more podcasts in addition to wherever you're listening to it, today, you can go to Michael hingson.com/podcast that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o n.com/podcast, and all of our episodes are there, but we really value your time. We value that you like what we're doing. We'll always love to hear from people, so please let us know and keep the emails coming and again. Barbara, I just want to thank you. We really appreciate your time and are so glad that you came and spent this time with us.   Barbara Leigh ** 1:03:32 Thank you, Michael, it's been great. I appreciate   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

2:52:26 – Frank in New Jersey, plus the Other Side. Topics include: Space shirts, Portable Night, delivery robots, storms, driving in Manhattan, have a good one, Din Tai Fung, another vegan restaurant closed, C86, Dig Dug New Frontier, post-modern architecture, The Picture of Dorian Gray on Broadway, Nox Arc, swamp green, weird heavy energy, World Trade Center, […]

2:52:26 – Frank in New Jersey, plus the Other Side. Topics include: Space shirts, Portable Night, delivery robots, storms, driving in Manhattan, have a good one, Din Tai Fung, another vegan restaurant closed, C86, Dig Dug New Frontier, post-modern architecture, The Picture of Dorian Gray on Broadway, Nox Arc, swamp green, weird heavy energy, World Trade Center, […]

What would you attempt if you stopped letting age define your limits?

This week, writer and chaos agent Nick De Leon joins Chris Stanley and Chirs Faga on High Society Radio for a coast-to-coast session of philosophical detours, Nintendo name debates, and corporate conspiracies. From a possible Mario Bros censorship scandal to Deloitte's shady rise in global consulting, the episode jumps from New York voting mishaps to shirt-folding machines, Steam Decks, and whether Marcus Aurelius was the first "sigma male." Also: a plumbing story you won't forget and geopolitical hot takes you didn't ask for—but definitely needed.Topics Include:Nick & Stanley: The Origin StoryIs LA... Actually Fine Now?The Plumber and the Mario DebateMario Bros vs the World Trade Center?Nick's New York Voting AdventureWait—Nick's Not Mexican?Marcus Aurelius: First Sigma Male?Apple Pricing Rant IncomingThe Shirt-Folding Machine That Almost WorksSteam Deck FeverMarcus Brownlee & Tech YouTubersIsrael, Explained PoorlyChris Is Moving to QatarCorporal Tso's Chicken and the Military Industrial Lunch ComplexDeloitte vs. McKinsey: Corporate Hunger GamesAmerica's 22-Year-Old Terrorism Advisor#HighSocietyRadio #NickDeLeon #ComedyPodcast #GasDigital #MarcusAurelius #MarioBros #SteamDeck #ConsultingConspiracies #NYCComedyDON'T FORGET TO WATCH FAGA'S NEW SPECIAL "BURN AFTER SAYING" ON THE HSR YOUTUBE PAGE!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIHJU2LotUSupport Our Sponsors!https://yokratom.com/ - Check out Yo Kratom (the home of the $60 kilo) for all your kratom needs!https://www.smallbatchcigar.com/ Use code GAS10 discount code for 10% off plus 5% rewards points!https://fatdickhotchocolate.net/ Get you a fat dick at fatdickhotchocolate.netHigh Society Radio is 2 native New Yorkers who started from the bottom and didn't raise up much. That's not the point, if you enjoy a sideways view on technology, current events, or just an in depth analysis of action movies from 2006 this is the show for you.Chris Stanley is the on-air producer for Bennington on Sirius XM.A Twitter Chris Really Likes: https://x.com/stanman42069Chris from Brooklyn is a lifelong street urchin, a former head chef and current retiree.Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChrisFromBklynInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/chrisfrombklynFollow Nick De LeonTwitter: https://x.com/nicholasadeleonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicholasadeleonEngineer: JorgeEditor: TannerInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilkinky69/Executive Producer: Mike HarringtonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/themharrington/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheMHarringtonSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

SUPPORT THE MISSIONThis is the first episode in a special four-part series launching during Mental Health Awareness Month to support the Blue Angels Foundation, whose mission is to provide critical care and services to wounded veterans transitioning back to civilian life.Donate today  ➡️ https://blueangelsfoundation.givevirtuous.org/donate/support-our-nations-veterans-blue-angels-phantoms-fundraiserAnyone who donates $250 or more will receive a limited-edition Blue Angel Phantoms trucker hat—this hat is not available for sale.All donors, regardless of amount, will also be entered into a drawing on July 1, 2025 to receive a giveaway bundle that includes:

I have mentioned before a program I attend entitled Podapalooza. This quarterly event brings together podcasters, would-be podcasters and people interested in being interviewed by podcasters. This all-day program is quite fun. Each time I go I request interview opportunities to bring people onto Unstoppable Mindset. I never really have a great idea of who I will meet, but everyone I have encountered has proven interesting and intriguing.   This episode we get to meet Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett who I met at Podapalooza 12. I began our episode by asking Laura to tell me a bit about her growing up. We hadn't talked about this before the episode. The first thing she told me was that she was kind of an afterthought child born some 12.5 years after her nearest sibling. Laura grew up curious about many things. She went to University in Calgary. After obtaining her Master's degree she worked for some corporations for a time, but then went back to get her Doctorate in Organization Psychology.   After discussing her life a bit, Dr. Laura and I discussed many subjects including fear, toxic bosses and even something she worked on since around 2005, working remotely. What a visionary Laura was. I like the insights and thoughts Dr. Lovett discusses and I think you will find her thoughts worth hearing.   On top of everything else, Laura is a podcaster. She began her podcast career in 2020. I get to be a guest on her podcast, _Where Work Meets Life_TM, in May of 2025. Be sure to check out her podcast and listen in May to see what we discuss.   Laura is also an author as you will learn. She is working on a book about toxic bosses. This book will be published in January of 2026. She also has written two fiction books that will soon be featured in a television series. She tells us about what is coming.       About the Guest:   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett is an Organizational Psychologist, Keynote Speaker, Business Leader, Author, and Podcast Host. She is a sought-after thought leader on workplace psychology and career development internationally, with 25 years of experience. Dr. Laura is a thought leader on the future of work and understands the intersection of business and people.     Dr. Laura's areas of expertise include leadership, team, and culture development in organizations, remote/hybrid workplace success, toxic leadership, career development, and mental health/burnout. She holds a Ph.D. in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from the University of Calgary, where she is currently an Adjunct Professor.     As a passionate entrepreneur, Dr. Laura has founded several psychology practices in Canada since 2009, including Canada Career Counselling, Synthesis Psychology, and Work EvOHlution™ which was acquired in 2021.  She runs the widely followed podcast _Where Work Meets Life_TM, which began in 2020.  She speaks with global experts on a variety of topics around thriving humans and organizations, and career fulfillment.     In addition to her businesses, she has published two psychological thrillers, Losing Cadence and Finding Sophie. She hopes to both captivate readers and raise awareness on important topics around mental health and domestic violence.  These books are currently being adapted for a television series.  Dr. Laura received a Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a Global Influencer in 2018. Ways to connect with Dr. Laura:   Email: Connect@drlaura.live   Website: https://drlaura.live/    LinkedIn: @drlaurahambley/    Keynotes: Keynotes & Speaking Engagements   Podcast: Where Work Meets Life™ Podcast   Author: Books   Newsletter: Subscribe to Newsletter   Youtube: @dr.laurawhereworkmeetslife   Facebook: @Dr.Laura.whereworkmeetslife   Instagram: @dr.laura__   Tik Tok: @drlaura__   X: @DrLaura_   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:     Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, wherever you happen to be, I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike hingson, and we have, I think, an interesting guest today. She's an organizational psychologist. She is a keynote speaker, and she even does a podcast I met Dr Laura through a function that we've talked about before on this podcast, Pata palooza. We met at pollooza 12. So that goes back to January. I think Dr Laura is an organizational psychologist. As I said, she's a keynote speaker. She runs a podcast. She's written books, and I think you've, if I'm not mistaken, have written two fiction books, among other things, but we'll get to all that. But Laura, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for being here.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:12 Well, thank you for having me, Michael. I really think the world of you and admire your spirit, and I'm just honored to be here speaking with you today. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 as I tell people when they come on the podcast, we do have one hard and fast rule, and that is, you're supposed to have fun. So if you can't have fun, forget about   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:30 it. Okay, alright, I'm willing to There   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 you go see you gotta have a little bit of fun. Well, why don't we start as I love to do with a lot of folks tell us kind of about the early Laura, growing up and all that, and kind of how you got where you are, if you will. Oh, my goodness, I know that opens up a lot of options.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:52 I was an afterthought child. I was the sixth child of a Catholic mother who had five children in a row, and had me 12 years later, unplanned, same parents, but all my siblings are 12 to 19 years older than me, so I was caught between generations. I always wanted to be older than I was, and I felt, you know, I was almost missing out on the things that were going on before me. But then I had all these nieces and nephews that came into the world where I was the leader of the pack. So my niece, who's next in line to me, is only three years younger, so it just it makes for an interesting dynamic growing up where you're the baby but you're also the leader. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 lot of advantages there, though I would think,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 03:42 Oh yeah, it taught me a lot about leadership. It taught me about followership. It taught me about life and learning the lessons from my older siblings of what you know, they were going through and what I wanted to be like when I grew up.   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 So, so what kind of things did you learn from all of that? And you know, what did, what did they teach you, and what did they think of you, all of your older siblings? Oh, they loved me. I was, I bet they were. Yeah, you were the baby sister.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:13 But I should add my mom was mentally ill, so her mental illness got worse after having me, I think, and I know this about postpartum, as you get older and postpartum hits, it can get worse later on and and she suffered with a lot of mental health challenges, and I would say that that was the most challenging part of growing up for me.   Michael Hingson ** 04:42 Did she ever get over that? Or?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:45 No, we just, I mean, it had its ups and downs. So when times were good, she was great, she was generous, she was loving. She was a provider, a caretaker. She had stayed at home her whole life, so she was the stay at home mom, where you'd come home from school. And there'd be hot, baked cookies and stuff, you know, she would really nurture that way. But then when she had her lows, because it was almost a bipolar situation, I would, I would say it was undiagnosed. I mean, we never got a formal diagnosis, but she had more than one psychotic break that ended her in the hospital. But I would say when she was down, she would, you know, run away for a few days and stay in another city, or have a complete meltdown and become really angry and aggressive. And, I mean, it was really unpredictable. And my father was just like a rock, just really stable and a loving influence and an entrepreneur like I am, so that, you know, he really helped balance things out, but it was hard on him as well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 I'll bet. Yeah, that's never easy. Is she still with us, or is she passed?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 05:53 No, she got dementia and she passed. The dementia was about 12 years of, you know, turning into a baby. It's so sad that over 12 years, we just she lost her mind completely, and she died in 2021 and it was hard. I mean, I felt like, oh, man, you know, that was hard. I you know, as much as it was difficult with her and the dementia was difficult. I mean, she was my mother, and, yeah, it was a big loss for me. And I lost my father at age 21 and that was really hard. It was a very sudden with an aneurysm. And so that was in 1997 so I've been a long time without parents in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 06:30 Wow. Well, I know what you mean. My father, in this is his opinion, contracted some sort of a spore in Africa during World War Two, and it manifested itself by him losing, I think it was white blood cells later in his life, and had to have regular transfusions. And eventually he passed in 1984 and my belief is, although they classified it as congestive heart failure, he had enough other diseases or things that happened to him in the couple of years before he passed. I think it was actually HIV that he died from, because at that time, they still didn't understand about tainted blood, right? And so he got transfusions that probably were blood that that was a problem, although, you know, I can't prove that, and don't know it, but that's just kind of my opinion.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 07:34 Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Michael, that is so, so sad.   Michael Hingson ** 07:38 Yeah. And then my mom was a smoker most of her life, and she fell in 1987 and broke her hip, and they discovered that she also had some some cancer. But anyway, while she was in the hospital recovering from the broken hip, they were going to do some surgery to deal with the cancer, but she ended up having a stroke and a heart attack, and she passed away. So Oh, my God. I lost my mom in 1987   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:04 and you know, you were young. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:08 I was, I was 37 when she died. So still, I missed them both, even today, but I I had them for a while, and then my brother, I had until 2015 and then he passed from cancer. So it happens, and I got married in 1982 to my wife, Karen, who was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she passed in 2022 so we were married 40 years. So lots of memories. And as I love to tell people all the time, I got to continue to be a good kid, because I'm being monitored from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I know I'm going to hear about it. So,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:49 you know, well, that's a beautiful, long marriage that the two of you had   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 was and lots of memories, which is the important things. And I was blessed that with September 11 and so on, and having written thunder dog, the original book that I wrote about the World Trade Center and my life, it was published in 2011 and I was even reading part of it again today, because I spoke at a book club this morning, it just brings back lots of wonderful memories with Karen, and I just can't in any way argue with the fact that we did have a great 40 years. So no regrets.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:26 Wow, 40 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 Yeah. So, you know, it worked out well and so very happy. And I know that, as I said, I'm being monitored, so I I don't even chase the girls. I'm a good kid. Chris, I would point out none of them have chased me either. So, you know,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:49 I love your humor. It's so awesome. So we gotta laugh, Mark, because the world's really tricky right now. Oh gosh, isn't it? It's very tricky. And I'd love to talk. About that today a bit, because I'm just having a lot of thoughts about it and a lot of messages I want to get across being well, you are well psychologist and a thought leader and very spiritual and just trying to make a difference, because it's very tricky.   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 So how did you get into psychology and all that. So you grew up, obviously, you went to college and tell me about that and how you ended up getting into the whole issue of psychology and the things that you do. Well,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 10:30 I think being the youngest, I was always curious about human dynamics in my family and the siblings and all the dynamics that were going on, and I was an observer of all of that. And then with my mother and just trying to understand the human psyche and the human condition. And I was a natural born helper. I always wanted to help people, empathetic, very sensitive kid, highly sensitive person. So then when I went into psycho to university. We University. We call it up here for an undergrad degree, I actually didn't know what I wanted to do. I was a musician as well. I was teaching music throughout high school, flute and piano. I had a studio and a lot of students. And thought, well, maybe do I want to do a music degree? Or, Oh, maybe I should go into the family business of water treatment and water filtration that my father started for cities, and go in and do that and get a chemical engineering degree. Not really interested in that, though, no. And then just kind of stumbled my way through first year. And then I was really lost. And then I came across career counseling. And I thought, Okay, this is going to help me. And it did. And psychology lit up like a light bulb. I had taken the intro to psych course, which is more of a hodgepodge mix of topics. I'm like, yeah, and then, but when I looked at the second year courses in the third year and personality and abnormal psych and clinical psych and all of that. I thought, Oh, I found my place. This is juicy. This is interesting. And I want to help people. Is   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 this to say you fit right in when you were studying Abnormal Psychology? Just checking,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 12:14 yeah, probably okay. I actually didn't go down the clinical psych route, which is where it's the clinical psych and the psychiatrists that tackle more of the personality disorders. So I went into counseling psych, which is the worried well. We call it the worried well. So people like you and I who are going through life, experiencing the various curve balls that life has to offer, and I know you've been through more than your fair share, but it's helping people get through the curve balls. And I specialized in career, I ended up saying people spend most of their waking lives, you know, working or thinking about work as part of their identity. So I specialized in career development psychology in my master's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, well, that's, that's certainly, probably was easier than flute and piano. You couldn't do both of those at the same time.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:07 I ended up having to, yeah, it became too much. I tried to for a while.   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 Yeah, you can play the flute or the piano, but kind of hard to do both at the same time. Oh,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:18 at the same time, yeah, unless you play with your toes, which I've seen people actually people do that, yeah, do Yeah. There's this one speaker in our national speakers group, and he he does a lot with his toes, like I remember him playing the drums with his toes at his last keynote. So I was just amazed. So horn with no arms and does everything with his feet. So I bet he could do some piano too. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 But then, of course, having no arms and he would also have a problem doing piano at the same time. But, you know, that's okay, but still, so you went into to psychology, which I find is a is a fascinating subject. Anyway, my interest was always in the physical sciences, so I got my master's degree in physics, although I did take a couple of psychology courses, and I enjoyed it. I remember the basic intro to psych, which was a lot of fun, and she's had a real hodgepodge, but still it was fascinating. Because I always was interested in why people behave the way they do, and how people behave the way they do, which is probably why I didn't go into theoretical physics, in a sense. But still it was and is very interesting to see how people behave, but you went off and got your masters, and then you also got a PhD along the line, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 14:47 Yeah, that was interesting. I did the Masters, and then I always did things a little differently. Michael, so all of my peers went on to become registered psychologists, which, which means you have. To go through a registration process, and instead, I got pulled into a.com company. We called them dot coms at the time, because in 1999 when I started with a.com It was a big thing. I mean, it was exciting, right? It was and it was a career development related.com that had a head office in New York City, and I ended up leading a team here in Calgary, and we were creating these technologies around helping people assess their passions, their interests, their skills, and then link to careers. We had about 900 careers in our database, and then linking people to educational programs to get them towards those careers. So I remember coming up a lot of times to Rutgers University and places like that, and going to New York City and dealing with that whole arena. So I was, you know, from a young age, I'd say I was too young to rent a car when I flew there, but I had a team of about 15 people that I oversaw, and it was great experience for me at an early age of, okay, you know, there's a lot I'm learning a lot here, because I really wasn't trained in Business and Management at that time, right?   Michael Hingson ** 16:17 But you But you did it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 16:20 I did it, yeah, I did it. And then I ended up working for another consulting firm that brought me into a whole bunch of organizations working on their competency models. So I did a lot of time in the Silicon Valley, working in different companies like Cisco, and I was just in this whole elaborate web of Okay. Organizations are quite interesting. They're almost like families, because they have a lot of dynamics there. It's interesting. And you can make a difference, and you can help the organization, the people in the workplace, you know, grow and thrive and develop. And I'm okay, you know, this is interesting, too. I like this. And then at that time, I knew I wanted to do a doctorate, and I discovered that organizational Psych was what I wanted to do, because it's the perfect blend of business and psychology. Because I'm a serial entrepreneur, by the way, so entrepreneurship, psychology, business, kind of the best of both worlds. Okay, I'm going to do that, so that's what I did.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 That certainly is kind of cool. So when did you end up getting your doctorate?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:28 I finished that in 2005   Michael Hingson ** 17:31 okay, were you working while you were doing that? Or did you just go back to school full   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:36 time? I had to go back to school because the program was very heavy. It was a program where you could not work full time during it. I still worked part time during it. I was working hard because I was registering as a psychologist at the same time, I knew I wanted to register and become a psychologist, and I knew I wanted to get that doctorate, and there were times when I almost stepped away, especially at the beginning of it, because when you're out in the real world, and then you go back into academia, it's just such a narrow How do I explain this? How does this, how is this relevant? You know, all these journal articles and this really esoteric, granular research on some little itty, itty bitty thing. And I just really struggled. But then I said, So I met with someone I remember, and she she said, Laura, it's like a car. When you buy a car, you can choose your own car seats and color, and you know, the bells and whistles of your car, and you can do that for the doctorate. And I said, Okay, I'm going to make the doctorate mine, and I'm going to specialize in a topic that I can see being a topic that the world of work will face in the future. So I specialized in remote leadership, and how you lead a team when they're not working in the same office, and how you lead and inspire people who are working from home. And that whole notion of distributed work, which ended up becoming a hot topic in the pandemic. I was, I was 20 years, 15 years ahead of the game. Yeah. Well, that,   Michael Hingson ** 19:09 of course, brings up the question of the whole issue of remote work and stuff during the pandemic and afterward. What do you what do you think has been the benefit of the whole concept of remote work. What did people learn because of the pandemic, and are they forgetting it, or are they still remembering it and allowing people to to work at home? And I ask that because I know in this country, our illustrious president is demanding that everybody go back to work, and a lot of companies are buying into that as well. And my thought has always been, why should we worry about where a person works, whether it's remote or in an actual office, so long as they get the work? Done, but that seems to, politically not be the way what people want to think of it today.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 20:06 Yeah, it's, I mean, I have a lot to say on it, and I have years and years of data and research that supports the notion that it's not a one size fits all, and a blend tends to be the best answer. So if you want to preserve the culture and the collaboration, but yet you want to have people have the flexibility and autonomy and such, which is the best of both worlds. Because you're running a workplace, you're not running a daycare where you need to babysit people, and if you need to babysit people, you're hiring the wrong people. So I would say I'm a biggest fan of hybrid. I think remote works in some context, I think bringing everyone back full time to an office is very, very old school command and control, leadership, old school command and control will not work. You know, when you're trying to retain talent, when it's an employer's market, yes, you'll get away with it. But when it goes back to an employee's market. Watch out, because your generation Z's are going to be leaving in droves to the companies that offer flexibility and autonomy, same with some of your millennials, for sure, and even my generation X. I mean, we really value, you know, a lot of us want to have hybrids and want to be trusted and not be in a car for 10 to 20 hours a week commuting? Yeah? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, I know I hear you, and from the baby boomer era, you know, I I think there's value in being in an office that is, I think that having time to interact and know colleagues and so on is important. But that doesn't mean that you have to do it every day, all day. I know many times well. I worked for a company for eight years. The last year was in New York because they wanted me to go to New York City and open an office for them, but I went to the office every day, and I was actually the first person in the office, because I was selling to the east coast from the west coast. So I opened the office and was on the phone by 6am in the morning, Pacific Time, and I know that I got so much more done in the first two to three hours, while everyone else was slowly filtering in, and then we got diverted by one thing or another, and people would gossip and so on. Although I still tried to do a lot of work, nevertheless, it got to be a little bit more of a challenge to get as much done, because now everybody was in and they wanted to visit, or whatever the case happens to be, and I think there's value in visiting, but I think from a working standpoint, if I'd been able to do that at home, at least part of the time, probably even more would have been accomplished. But I think there's value also in spending some time in the office, because people do need to learn to interact and know and trust each other, and you're not going to learn to trust if you don't get to know the other people.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 23:08 Yeah, totally. I agree with you 100% and I know from it. I on my own podcast I had the founder of four day work week global, the four day work movement. I did four episodes on that topic, and yeah, people are not productive eight hours a day. I'll tell you that. Yeah, yeah. So just because you're bringing them into an office and forcing them to come in, you're not gonna it doesn't necessarily mean more productivity. There's so much that goes into productivity, apart from presenteeism, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I think there's, there's merit in that. I think that even when you're working at home, there are rules, and there you're still expected to do work, but there's, I think, room for both. And I think that the pandemic taught us that, but I'm wondering if we're forgetting it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 24:06 Oh yeah, that's the human condition. We forget, right? We, we forget. We it's almost I envision an icy ski slope. I'm a skier, you know, being up here in Canada and the Rocky Mountains, but it's a ski slope, and you walk up a few steps, and then you slide back so easily, because it's icy, right? Like you gotta just be aware that we slide back easily. We need to be intentional and stay on top of the why behind certain decisions, because the pendulum swings back so far so easily. And I mean, women's issues are one of those things we can slide back so quickly. After like, 100 years of women fighting for their rights, we can end up losing that very, very quickly in society. That's just one of many examples I know all the D, E and I stuff that's going on, and I. I mean, it's just heartbreaking, the extent of that pendulum slapping back the other way, so hard when we need to have a balance, and you know, the right balance, because the answer is never black and white, black or white, the answer is always some shade of gray.   Michael Hingson ** 25:20 How do we get people to not backslide? And I know that's a really tough question, and maybe there's no there, there very well may not really be an easy answer to that, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 25:37 That's a great question. Michael, I would envision almost ski poles or hiking poles. It's being grounded into the earth. It's being grounded into what are the roots of my values? What are my the values that we hold dear as human beings and as society, and sticking to those values, and, you know, pushing in to the earth to hold those values and stand up for those values, which I know is easier said than done in certain climates and certain contexts. And I mean, but I think it's really important to stand strong for what our values   Michael Hingson ** 26:20 are, yeah, I think that's really it. It comes down to values and principles. I know the late president, Jimmy Carter once said that we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And it seems to me you were talking about this being a tricky world. I thought that was an interesting way to express it. But I'm wondering if we're seeing all too many people not even holding to the unwavering principles, the sacrificing principles for political expediency and other things, yeah,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 26:53 yes, exactly. And we know about values that sometimes values clash, right? So you might have a value that you want to have a lot of money and be financially, you know, successful, yet you have the value of work life balance and you want a lot of time off and and sometimes those values can clash, and sometimes we need to make decisions in our lives about what value takes precedence at this time in our life. But I think what you're right is that there's a lot of fear out there right now, and when the fear happens, you can lose sight of why those values are important to you for more of a shorter term, quick gain to get rid of the fear, because fear is uncertain and painful for humans.   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 Well, I wrote live like a guide dog, which is the latest book that was, that was published in August of last year, and it's all about learning to control fear, really. And the reality is, and what I say in the book, essentially is, look, fear is with us. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be afraid and that you can live without fear, but what you can do is learn to control fear, and you have the choice of learning how you deal with fear and what you allow fear to do to you. And so, for example, in my case, on September 11, that fear was a very powerful tool to help keep me focused going down the stairs and dealing with the whole day. And I think that's really the the issue is that fear is is something that that all too many people just have, and they let it overwhelm them, or, as I put it, blind them, and the result of that is that they can't make decisions, they can't move on. And so many things are happening in our world today that are fomenting that fear, and we're not learning how to deal with it, which is so unfortunate.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 29:02 Yeah, you're right. And I back to your World Trade Center. So you were on, was it 778? 78 oh, my god, yeah. So to me, that must have been the scariest moment of your life.   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 I'm missing in a in a sense, no only until later, because none of us knew what was happening when the plane hit the building, which it did on the other side of the building from me and 1000s of others, and it hit above where we were. So going down the stairs, none of us knew what happened, because nobody saw it. And as I point out, Superman and X ray vision are fiction. So the reality is, it had nothing to do with blindness. The fact is, none of us knew going down the stairs. We figured out a plane hit the building because we smelled something that I eventually identified as burning jet fuel fumes, because I smell it every time I went to an airport. But we didn't know what happened. And. And and in a sense, that probably was a good thing for most people. Frankly, I would rather have known, and I can, I can say this, thinking about it a lot as I do, I would rather have known what happened, because it would have affected perhaps some of the decisions that I made later. If I had known that the buildings had been struck and there was a likelihood that they would collapse. I also know that I wouldn't have panicked, but I like information, and it's something that I use as a tool. But the fact is that we didn't know that. And so in a sense, although we were certainly worried about what was going on, and we knew that there was fire above us, we didn't know what it was all about.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 30:41 Wow. And I would say, so glad you got out of there. I Yeah, what a horrific experience. I was up there the year before it happened. And I think being up there, you can just sense the the height of it and the extent of it, and then seeing ground zero after and then going there with my son last June and seeing the new world trade, it was just really, I really resonate with your or not resonate, but admire your experience that you got out of there the way you did, and thank goodness you're still in this world. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 31:17 it's a weird experience having been back, also now, going through the museum and being up in the new tower, trying to equate where I was on September 11 and where things were with what it became when it was all rebuilt. There's no easy reference point, although I did some of the traveling around the area with someone who knew what the World Trade Center was like before September 11. And so they were able to say, Okay, you're standing in such and such a place, so you're standing right below where Tower One was. And then I could kind of put some reference points to it, but it was totally different. Needless to say,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 32:05 Yeah, no kidding, but I think the fear that you go through during a disaster, right, is immediate like so the fight flight response is activated immediately, and you're, you're put into this almost state of flow. I call it a state where you time just is irrelevant. You're just putting one foot ahead of the other, right, right, right? Whereas the fear that society is going through right now, I think, is a projecting out into the future fear. It's not surviving this moment. It's more about I want to make sure I have enough money in the future, and I want to make sure I have safety in the future, or whatever it is, and you're projecting out, and you're living in the future, and you're worrying about the future, you're not living in the present, and it makes people kind of go crazy in the end, with anxiety, because we're not meant to be constantly worried about the Future. The only thing we can control is today and what we put into place for a better tomorrow, but fearing tomorrow and living in anxiety is so unhealthy for the human spirit,   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 and yet that's what people do, and it's one of the things we talk about and live like a guide dog. Worry about what you can control and don't worry about the rest. And you know, we spend so much time dealing with what if, what if this happens? What if that happens? And all that does, really is create fear in us, rather than us learning, okay, I don't really have control over that. I can be worried about the amount of money I have, but the real question is, what am I going to do about it today? And I know one of the lessons I really learned from my wife, Karen, we had some times when when we had significant debt for a variety of reasons, but like over the last few years of her life, we had enough of an income from speaking and the other things that I was doing that she worked really hard to pay down credit card bills that we had. And when she passed, most all of that was accomplished, and I was, I don't know whether she thought about it. She probably did, although she never got to the point of being able to deal with it, but one of the things that I quickly did was set up with every credit card company that we use paying off each bill each month, so we don't accrue credit, and so every credit card gets paid off, because now the expenses are pretty predictable, and so we won't be in that situation as long as I continue to allow things to get paid off every month and things like that. But she was the one that that put all that in motion, and it was something she took very, very seriously, trying to make sure. It. She brought everything down. She didn't really worry so much about the future. Is, what can I do today? And what is it that my goal is? Well, my goal is to get the cards paid off. I can do this much today and the next month. I can do this much today, which, which I thought was a great way and a very positive way to look at it. She was very methodical, but she wasn't panicky.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:24 Mm, hmm. No, I like that, because panic gets us nowhere. It just It ruins today and it doesn't help tomorrow, right? Same with regret, regret you can't undo yesterday, and living in regret, guilt, living in the past is just an unhealthy place to be as well, unless we're just taking the learnings and the nuggets from the past. That's the only reason we need the past is to learn from it. You   Michael Hingson ** 35:52 have to learn from it and then let it go, because it's not going to do any good to continue to dwell on it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:57 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 36:00 Well, so you, you, you see so many things happening in this world. How do we deal with all of it, with all the trickiness and things that you're talking about?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:10 Do you like that word, tricky? I like it. That's a weird word.   Michael Hingson ** 36:14 Well, I think it's, it's a different word, but I like it, it, it's a word that I think, personally, becomes non confrontive, but accurate in its descriptions. It is tricky, but, you know, we can, we can describe things in so many ways, but it's better to do it in a way that isn't judgmental, because that evokes attitudes that we don't need to have.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:38 Yeah, if I use the word scary or terrible, or, I think those words are, yeah, just more anxiety provoking. Tricky can be tricky. Can be bad, tricky can be a challenge,   Michael Hingson ** 36:52 right? Like a puppy, unpredictable, or, you know, so many things, but it isn't, it isn't such a bad thing. I like that.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 37:03 How do we navigate a tricky world? Well, we we need to focus on today. We need to focus on the things that we can control today, physically, mentally, emotionally, socially and spiritually, the five different arenas of our life and on any given day, we need to be paying attention to those arenas of our life and how are they doing. Are we healthy physically? Are we getting around and moving our bodies? Are we listening to our bodies and our bodies needs? Are we putting food into our bodies, and are we watching what we drink and consume that could be harming our bodies, and how does it make us feel? And are we getting enough sleep? I think sleep is a huge issue for a lot of people in these anxiety provoking times.   Michael Hingson ** 37:56 Well, I think, I think that's very accurate. The question is, how do we learn to do that? How do we teach ourselves?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:07 How do we learn to do all that   Michael Hingson ** 38:09 stuff? How do we how do we learn to deal with the things that come up, rather than letting them all threaten us and scare us?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:20 Oh, that's a big question. I think that well, the whole the five spheres, right? So if you're taking care of your physical health and you're making that a priority, and some people really struggle with that, and they need a buddy system, or they need professional helpers, right, like a coach or a trainer or a psychologist like me, or whatever it is that they need the extra supports in place, but the physical super important, the making sure that we are socially healthy and connectedness is more important than ever. Feeling connected to our tribe, whatever that is, our close friends. You know, whether we have family that we would consider friends, right? Who in our team is helpful to us and trusted allies, and if we can have the fingers of one hand with close people that we trust in our lives, that's that's great, right? It doesn't have to be 100 people, right? It can be a handful, over your lifetime of true allies to walk through this world together.   Michael Hingson ** 39:26 One of the things that I've talked about it a bit on this podcast, but I I love the the concept that I think I've come up with is I used to always say I'm my own worst critic, and I said that because I love to record, and I learned the value of recording speeches, even going back to when I worked at campus radio station at kuci in Irvine campus radio station, I would listen to my show, and I kind of forced all the On Air personalities. 90s to listen to their own shows by arranging for their shows to be recorded, because they wouldn't do it themselves. And then I sent recordings home with them and said, You've got to listen to this. You will be better for it. And they resisted it and resisted it, but when they did it, it was amazing how much they improved. But I as I recorded my talks, becoming a public speaker, and working through it, I kept saying, I record them because I'm my own worst critic. I'm going to pick on me harder than anyone else can. And it was only in the last couple of years because I heard a comment in something that I that I read actually, that said the only person who can really teach you anything is you. Other people can present information, they can give you data, but you are really the only one who can truly teach you. And I realized that it was better to say I'm my own best teacher than my own worst critic, because it changes the whole direction of my thought, but it also drops a lot of the fear of listening or doing the thing that I was my own worst critic   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 41:10 about. I love that, Michael. I think that's genius. I'm my own best teacher, not my own worst critic,   Michael Hingson ** 41:19 right? It's it's positive, it's also true, and it puts a whole different spin on it, because one of the things that we talk about and live like a guide dog a lot is that ultimately, and all the things that you say are very true, but ultimately, each of us has to take the time to synthesize and think about the challenges that we face, the problems that we faced. What happened today that didn't work well, and I don't use the word fail, because I think that also doesn't help the process. But rather, we expected something to happen. It didn't. It didn't go well. What do we do about it? And that ultimately, taking time at the end of every day, for example, to do self analysis helps a lot, and the result of that is that we learn, and we learn to listen to our own inner mind to help us with that   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 42:17 exactly, I think that self insight is missing in a lot of us, we're not taking the time to be still and to listen to the voice within and to listen to what we are thinking and feeling internally, because we're go, go, go, go, go, and then when we're sitting still, you know what we're doing, we're on our phones,   Michael Hingson ** 42:41 and That's why I say at the end of the day, when you're getting ready, you're in bed, you're falling asleep. Take the time. It doesn't take a long time to get your mind going down that road. And then, of course, a lot happens when you're asleep, because you think about it   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 43:01 exactly. And you know, I've got to say, however spirituality is defined, I think that that is a key element in conquering this level of anxiety in society. The anxiety in society needs to be conquered by a feeling of greater meaning and purpose and connectedness in the human race, because we're all one race, the human race, in the end of the day, and all these divisions and silos and what's happening with our great you know, next door neighbors to each other, the US and Canada. It's the way that Canada is being treated is not not good. It's not the way you would treat a neighbor and a beloved neighbor that's there for you. In the end of the day, there's fires in California. We're sending our best fire crews over. You know, World War One, where my grandpa thought and Vimy Ridge, Americans were struggling. British could not take Vimy. It was the Canadians that came and, you know, got Vimy and conquered the horrific situation there. But in the end, we're all allies, and we're all in it together. And it's a tricky, tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 44:11 yeah, and it goes both ways. I mean, there's so many ways the United States has also helped. So you're not, yeah, you're not really in favor of Canada being the 51st state, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 44:26 You know, no, yeah, I love America. I mean, I have a lot of great friends in America and people I adore, but I think Canada is its own unique entity, and the US has been a great ally in a lot of ways, and we're in it together, right, right? I mean, really in it together, and we need to stay as allies. And as soon as you start putting up a fence and throwing rocks over the fence to each other, it just creates such a feud and an unnecessary feud, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:55 Well, very much so. And it is so unfortunate to see. It happening. And as you said, I think you put it very well. It's all about we're friends and friends. Don't treat friends in this way. But that is, that is, unfortunately, what we're seeing. I know I've been looking, and I constantly look for speaking opportunities, home, and I've sent emails to some places in Canada, and a few people have been honest enough to say, you know, we love what you do. We love your story. But right now, with what's going on between the United States and Canada, we wouldn't dare bring you to Canada, and while perhaps I could help by speaking and easing some of that a little bit. I also appreciate what they're saying, and I've said that to them and say, I understand, but this too shall pass. And so please, let's stay in touch, but I understand. And you know, that's all one can do.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:01 Yeah, and it, it too shall pass. I mean, it's just all and then anxiety takes over and it gets in the way of logic. Michael Hingston would, hingson would be our best speaker for this option, but the optics of it might get us into trouble, and they just get all wound up about it. And I you know, in the end of the day this, this will pass, but it's very difficult time, and we need to say, Okay, we can't control what's going to happen with tariffs or next month or whatever, but we can control today. And, yeah, I just went on a walk by the river. It was beautiful, and it was just so fulfilling to my soul to be outside. And that's what I could control the day   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 that's right? And that walk by the river and that being outside and having a little bit of time to reflect has to help reduce fear and stress.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:54 It does it very much, does   Michael Hingson ** 46:58 and and isn't that something that that more people should do, even if you're working in the office all day, it would seem like it would be helpful for people to take at least some time to step away mentally and relax, which would help drop some of the fear and the stress that they face. Anyway,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 47:20 100% and I am at my office downtown today, and I can see the river right now from my window. And there's research evidence that when you can see water flowing and you can see trees, it really makes a difference to your mental health. So this office is very intentional for me, having the windows having the bright light very intentional.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 I have a recording that I listen to every day for about 15 minutes, and it includes ocean sounds, and that is so soothing and just helps put so many things in perspective. Now it's not quite the same as sitting at the ocean and hearing the ocean sounds, but it's close enough that it works.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:06 That's beautiful. And you're going to come on to my podcast and we're going to talk a lot more about your story, and that'll be really great.   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 We're doing that in May.   48:16 Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:17 absolutely, and I'm looking forward to it. Well, how did you get involved in doing a podcast? What got you started down that road? Oh, your tricky podcast. Yeah.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:32 So I was running my company. So I have a company of psychologists in Canada, and we operate across the country, and we do two things really, really well. One is helping people navigate their careers at all ages and stages and make find fulfilling career directions. And then our other thing we do well is helping organizations, helping be healthier places to work, so building better leaders, helping create better cultures in organizations. So that's what we do, and we have. I've been running that for 16 years so my own firm, and at the same time, I always wanted a podcast, and it was 2020, and I said, Okay, I'm turning 45 years old. For my birthday gift to myself, I'm going to start a podcast. And I said, Does anyone else on the team want to co host, and we'll share the responsibilities of it, and we could even alternate hosting. No, no, no, no, no, no one else was interested, which is fine, I was interested. So I said, this is going to be, Dr Laura, then this podcast, I'm going to call it. Dr Laura, where work meets life. So the podcast is where work meets life, and then I'm Dr Laura, Canada's. Dr Laura,   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 yeah, I was gonna say there we've got lots of dr, Laura's at least two not to be   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 49:44 mixed up with your radio. One not to be mixed up completely different, right, in approach and style and values. And so I took on that started the podcast as the labor of love, and said, I'm going to talk about three. Three things, helping people thrive in their careers, helping people thrive in their lives, and helping organizations to thrive. And then, oh yeah, I'll throw in some episodes around advocating for a better world. And then the feedback I got was that's a lot of lanes to be in, Laura, right? That is a lot of lanes. And I said, Yeah, but the commonality is the intersection of work and life, and I want to have enough variety that it's stuff that I'm genuinely curious to learn, and it's guests that I'm curious to learn from, as well as my own musings on certain topics. And so that's what's happened. So it's it's 111 episodes in I just recorded 111 that's cool, yeah. So it's every two weeks, so it's not as often as some podcasts, but every episode is full of golden nuggets and wisdom, and it's been a journey and a labor of love. And I do it for the joy of it. I don't do it as a, you know, it's not really a business thing. It's led to great connections. But I don't do it to make money, and, in fact, it costs me money, but I do it to make a difference in the tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 right? Well, but at the same time, you get to learn a lot. You get to meet people, and that's really what it's all about anyway.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 51:21 Oh, I've met some incredible people like you through doing it, Michael and like my mentor, Sy Wakeman, who wrote the book no ego that's behind me in my office, and who's just a prolific speaker and researcher on drama and ego in the workplace. And you know, I've, I've met gurus from around the world on different topics. It's been fabulous,   Michael Hingson ** 51:47 and that is so cool. Well, and you, you've written some books. Tell us about your books, and by the way, by the way, I would appreciate it if you would email me photos of book covers, because I want to put those in the show notes.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 52:03 Oh, okay, I'm going to start with my current book that it actually, I just submitted my manuscript the other day, and it's, it's about toxic bosses, and how we can navigate and exit and recover from a toxic boss. And I saw this as a huge problem in the last couple of years, across different workplaces, across different people, almost everyone I met either had experienced it or had a loved one experience a toxic boss. And so I said, What is a toxic boss? First of all, how is this defined, and what does the research say? Because I'm always looking at, well, what the research says? And wait a minute, there's not a lot of research in North America. I'm an adjunct professor of psychology. I have a team of students. I can do research on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of toxic bosses post pandemic. What? What are toxic bosses? What are the damage they're inflicting on people, how do they come across, and what do we do about it? And then, how do we heal and recover? Because it's a form of trauma. So that's what I've been heavily immersed in, heavily immersed in. And the book is going to really help a lot of humans. It really is. So that's my passion right now is that book and getting it out into the world in January 2026, it's going to be   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 published. What's it called? Do you have a title   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 53:30 yet? I do, but I'm not really okay title officially yet, because it's just being with my publisher and editor, and I just don't want to say it until actually, Michael, I have the cover so it's going through cover design. I have a US publisher, and it's going through cover design, and that's so important to me, the visual of this, and then I'll share the I'll do a cover reveal. Good for you, yeah, and this is important to me, and I think it's timely, and I really differentiate what's a difficult boss versus a toxic boss, because there's a lot of difficult bosses, but I don't want to mix up difficult from toxic, because I think we need to understand the difference, and we need to help difficult bosses become better. We need to help toxic bosses not to do their damage and organizations to deal with them. And it's just there's so many different legs to this project. I'll be doing it for years.   Michael Hingson ** 54:24 So what's the difference between difficult and toxic? Or can you talk about that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 54:29 Yeah, I can talk about, I mean, some of the differences difficult bosses are frustrating, annoying. They can be poor communicators, bad delegators. They can even micromanage sometimes, and micromanagement is a common thing in new leaders, common issue. But the difference is that they the difficult boss doesn't cause psychological harm to you. They don't cause psychological and physical harm to you. They're not. Malicious in their intent. They're just kind of bumbling, right? They're just bumbling unintentionally. It's unintentional. The toxic boss is manipulative, dishonest, narcissistic. They can gaslight, they can abuse, they can harass, all these things that are intentional. Negative energy that inflicts psychological and or physical harm.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 And I suspect you would say their actions are deliberate for the most part, for the most part, at   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 55:35 least, yeah. And that's a whole Yeah, yeah. I would say whether they're deliberate or not, it's the impact that matters. And the impact is deep psychological hurt and pain, which is, and we know the Psych and the body are related, and it often turns into physical. So my research participants, you know, lots of issues. There's there's research. Cardiovascular is impacted by toxic bosses. Your mental health is your your heart rate, your your digestion, your gut. I mean, all of it's connected. When you have a toxic Boss,   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 what usually creates a toxic boss? It has to come from somewhere   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 56:18 that stems back to childhood. Typically got it. And we get into a whole you know about childhood trauma, right? Big T trauma and little T trauma. Little T trauma are almost death by 1000 paper cuts. It's all the little traumas that you know you you went through, if they're unaddressed, if they're unaddressed, big T trauma is you were sexually assaulted, or you were physically abused, or you went through a war and you had to escape the war torn country, or those sorts of things I call big T and I've learned this from other researchers. Little Ts are like this. You know, maybe microaggressions, maybe being teased, maybe being you know, these things that add up over time and affect your self confidence. And if you don't deal with the little Ts, they can cause harm in adulthood as well. And so that's what, depending on what went on earlier, whether you dealt with that or not, can make you come across into adulthood as a narcissist, for example,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 right? Well, you've written some other books also, haven't   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 57:25 you? Oh, yeah, so let's cheer this conversation up. I wrote two psychological thrillers. I am mad. I have an active imagination. I thought, what if someone got kidnapped by a billionaire, multi billionaire ex boyfriend who was your high school sweetheart, but it was 10 years later, and they created a perfect life for you, a perfect life for you, in a perfect world for you. What would that be like? So it's all about navigating that situation. So I have a strong female protagonist, so it's called losing cadence. And then I wrote a sequel, because my readers loved it so much, and it ended on a Hollywood cliffhanger. So then I wrote the sequel that takes place 12 years later, and I have a producing partner in in Hollywood, and we're pitching it for a TV series filmed as a three season, three seasons of episodes, and potentially more, because it's a really interesting story that has you at the edge of your seat at every episode.   Michael Hingson ** 58:28 Have those books been converted to audio? Also?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:33 No, no, I never converted them to audio. But I should. I should.   Michael Hingson ** 58:37 You should, you should. Did you publish them? Or did you have a publisher? I   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:41 published these ones. Yeah, a decade ago, a decade ago,   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 it has gotten easier, apparently, to make books available on Audible, whether you read them or you get somebody else to do it, the process isn't what it used to be. So might be something to look at. That'd be kind of fun.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:00 I think so. And I'll be doing that for my toxic boss book. Anyway, Michael, so I'm going to learn the ropes, and then I could do it for losing cadence and finding Sophie,   Michael Hingson ** 59:09 you'd find probably a lot of interested people who would love to have them in audio, because people running around, jogging and all that, love to listen to things, and they listen to podcasts, yours and mine. But I think also audio books are one way that people get entertained when they're doing other things. So yeah, I advocate for it. And of course, all of us who are blind would love it as well. Of   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:34 course, of course, I just it's on my mind. It's and I'm going to manifest doing that at some point.   Michael Hingson ** 59:41 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a heck of a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. We'll do it in May, and we may just have to have a second episode going forward. We'll see how it goes. But I'm looking forward to being on the your podcast in May, and definitely send me a. The book covers for the the two books that you have out, because I'd like to make sure that we put those in the show notes for the podcast. But if people want to reach out to you, learn more about you, maybe learn what you do and see how you can work with them. How do they do that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:00:14 Sure, that's a great question. So triple w.dr, Laura all is one word, D R, L, A, u, r, a, dot live. So Dr, Laura dot live is my website, and then you'll find where work meets life on all the podcast platforms. You'll find me a lot on LinkedIn as Dr Laura Hambley, love it, so I love LinkedIn, but I'm also on all the platforms, and I just love connecting with people. I share a lot of videos and audio and articles, and I'm always producing things that I think will help people and help organizations.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 Well, cool. Well, I hope people will reach out. And speaking of reaching out, I'd love to hear what you all think of our episode today. So please feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael hingson is m, I C H, A, E, L, H i N, G, s o n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that. If you don't give us a five star rating, I won't tell Alamo, my guy dog, and so you'll be safe. But we really do appreciate you giving us great ratings. We'd love to hear your thoughts. If any of you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, or if you want to be a guest, and of course, Laura, if you know some folks, we are always looking for more people to come on unstoppable mindset. So please feel free to let me know about that. Introduce us. We're always looking for more people and more interesting stories to tell. So we hope that that you'll do that. But I want to thank but I want to thank you again for coming on today. This has been fun,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:02:07 definitely, and I really admire you, Michael, and I can't wait to have you on where work meets life.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:18 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this emotionally gripping episode of DEAD Talks, host David Ferrugio sits down with Brian Clark — one of only a few known survivors who escaped from above the impact zone of the South Tower on 9/11. Brian shares an extraordinary firsthand account of that morning, the inexplicable moments that saved his life, and the man he helped rescue in one of the most powerful stories of survival and humanity you'll ever hear.Brian was on the 84th floor when Flight 175 struck just floors below him. From hearing voices guiding him to choosing a stairwell that wasn't engulfed in flames, this conversation reveals the smallest decisions that made the biggest difference between life and death.David, who lost his own father in the North Tower that day, brings personal vulnerability to the dialogue — making this not only a survivor story, but a deeply human exploration of fate, loss, and resilience.Join the ⁠DEAD Talk Patreon⁠ for only $5/mo to support our mission & and gain access to exclusive content and features. "Dead Dad Club" & "Dead Mom Club" hats and shirts: ⁠Shop Here⁠Purchase “Not Dead Yet” or DEAD Talk trucker hats here with free domestic shipping:

Interview with Nelson Martins (aka DJ Thermal Detonator) of 9/11 True Crimes discuss his critique on TMZ's re-release of Investigate 9/11:The Fifth Plane and other unknowns regarding the 4 hijacked planes and 3 airports on Sept. 11th, as well as other target's and suspicious actions then and after, not part of the Official Story. On September 11, 2001, United Flight 23 was grounded when the World Trade Center was hit, but it might have been another plane hijackers planned to weaponize in the terrorist attack -- and, our documentary covering it all is now available on YouTube."TMZ Investigates 9/11: The Fifth Plane" -- the result of a 6-month investigation -- takes viewers through the litany of suspicious activities that prompted the FBI to look into whether the plane was also part of the horrific plot that fateful day.There's more to this than meets the eye. DJ Thermal Detonator has the research.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.

I have known Skip Vaccarello for more than 12 years. When we first met both Skip and I lived in Northern California. Neither of us seem to remember the event at which we met, but we both discovered that we were people of faith. Over the years we lost touch until early January 2025 when I received a bulk email from Skip and reached out to see if we could get him to come on Unstoppable Mindset. He accepted and today's episode is the result.   Skip has over 40 years of experience leading Silicon Valley high tech companies. One of his first efforts was leading VisiCorp, the creator of the industry's first pc-based spreadsheet VisiCalc. What? You never heard of VisiCalc? Look it up. VisiCalc was one of those products that revolutionized so many endeavors.   In addition to leading and working with many Silicon Valley ventures Skip is a man of faith with a deep belief in Christianity. We talk about Skip's fait journey and why he believes faith makes a big difference in the lives of so many people especially in the high-tech world of Silicon Valley.   We talk a bit about Skip's retirement years and what he would advise anyone when they ask him about retirement. His answer may well surprise you, but his response is spot on and quite thought provoking.   I believe you will find Skip's insights fascinating and well worth the listen.       About the Guest:   Skip offers podcasts on faith and business topics at SkipVaccarello.com, and is a Partner with 1Flourish Capital, a venture firm investing in technology-based start-up companies led by entrepreneurs of character who understand that corporate culture is vital to success. He is also the author of Finding God in Silicon Valley:  Spiritual Journeys in a High-Tech World. From 2005 through 2021, Skip led  Connect Silicon Valley, a non-profit organization offering speaking events featuring high-profile leaders encouraging conversations about faith and life. In addition, he has served on corporate and non-profit boards and speaks at various organizations on leadership and organizational health.   Skip has over 40 years of experience in leadership positions for Silicon Valley technology companies, including VisiCorp, the provider of VisiCalc, the industry's first spreadsheet. In addition, he served as President and CEO of Applied Weather Technology, a global company providing software and services to the maritime industry. His other experience includes CEO of Communications Solutions, Inc., a communications software company; division general manager of 3Com, a networking product and solutions company; and co-founder and CEO of The Saratoga Group, an Internet-based training company. In addition, Skip has served as an executive coach, a merger and acquisition consultant, and for three years, taught a course on Principled Leadership and Ethics as an Adjunct Professor in the MBA program at William Jessup University.   He earned an A.B. with honors in economics from Harvard College and an MBA with honors from the Boston University School of Management. Skip has been married for over 44 years and has two daughters and six grandchildren. Skip and his wife reside in Bristol, NH and have a home in Chapel Hill, NC. Ways to connect Skip:   Website, Skip Vaccarello -- https://skipvaccarello.com/ Podcasts -- https://skipvaccarello.com/podcasts/ Podcasts on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@skipvaccarello Podcasts on Apple:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/who-do-you-want-to-become/id1737471615 LinkedIn -- https://www.linkedin.com/in/skip-vaccarello-50114/ Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/skipvaccarello Book (Amazon) -- https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Silicon-Valley-Spiritual-Journeys-High-Tech/dp/0996371923/ref=sr_1_1?crid=CYTLPJWTA4EA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.XlOGN69ci4cxDNHGjoi-JuD6ISwr4bFCY65xSabhw59got9YrjbPWyBlSgWLjuFi6IlTA5ZOM3PI6YIg7LMkVFA3-yicQ-VXc1rBHHgDi3xyo7FeIiH80ZEm9FOEUglAwOtKx3OhnXkJc3uSq4YGINJzgGTpHsoyAA1-awAGK0-BdSo8l8c9KgO7rkwwqftSaRDi9H2bQjMrgMvEHYQcjq7cHTZn0cthcSjrexplqk4.IyefTEA2Au7cl-nPpjb6_CBqiRn5kgQnZ-eUCT4qJWE&dib_tag=se&keywords=finding+god+in+silicon+valley&qid=1737478219&sprefix=finding+God+in+sil%2Caps%2C104&sr=8-1   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today is a fun day for me, because I get to talk with a gentleman who I met many years ago. His name is Skip, Vaccarello and Skip and I we were just trying to remember where we met. It was at some event in San Francisco, and I am now not remembering what it was, but anyway, we met and got to know each other pretty well, and we've talked over the years about faith in God and a variety of things like that. Skip wrote a book entitled finding God in Silicon Valley. We'll have to talk about that. Skip, because Ray Kurzweil keeps talking about the fact that at some point the singularity is going to hit and we're going to marry computer chips in people's brains. I'm not convinced about that. I'm not sure, but Skip, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Well,   Skip Vaccarello ** 02:16 Michael, it's such a pleasure to be with you, and I'm glad that we were able to make the acquaintance again after many years. Thank you. Thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 And now you're not in California anymore. You're back in New Hampshire.   Skip Vaccarello ** 02:28 No. Oh, well, I split my time between New Hampshire and North Carolina. Yeah, yeah. So I'm in North Carolina now. We were in I lived in Silicon Valley for 42 years, I think, is what it was, and but we moved grandchildren left, or my daughters and grandchildren left, one to the state of Washington and one to North Carolina. So we decided to go to go to North Carolina. So we live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina and and a lake in New Hampshire. What lake? It's called newfound lake. It's close to Lake Winnipesaukee. It's less lesser known than some of those. Yeah, we've had a house there for many years, and love it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:06 I spent time in and around Lake wind and Pesach. That was a lot of fun.   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:10 Oh, yeah, yeah, the lakes are just beautiful, crystal clear water and and it's a real, real nice area. I had   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 a friend who had a summer home on an island out in the middle of Lake Winnipesaukee. And I remember that when we first went there, you had to go out to the to the home by boat. And it was so nice, because at night time there was absolutely no sound. It was so quiet. I loved it. Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:35 yeah. In the sky was you probably could see all the stars in the sky too. I would imagine,   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 oh yeah, I'm sure, yeah.   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:43 But beautiful, beautiful place, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 I'd love to get back there. At some point, we'll have to do that and and go visit it. Well, tell us, tell us a little bit about the early skip, growing up and all that sort of stuff, if you would, sure.   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:57 Well, I grew up in the in the Boston area. You probably, people will probably detect a little bit of my Boston accents, a little bit. So I grew up there. I grew up, grew up just outside of Boston. And where did you grow up? I grew up in Waltham. Was the time in Waltham, okay, grew up in Waltham, and I went to school there. I went to undergraduate school at Harvard and graduate school at Boston University and, and you love, love the area. So that's, anyway, that's where I grew up. I was, we have family of there are four of us. I was the first boy, and pretty involved in sports and, you know, as a reasonable student. But enjoy the area. And it's, it's nice, you know, coming back when I have the chance, you know, going to New Hampshire, I still enjoy the city of Boston. It's a wonderful   Michael Hingson ** 04:42 city. Do you ever go by and visit the Harvard coop?   Skip Vaccarello ** 04:47 Oh yeah, oh yeah. And especially if I'm at a reunion, I'll go there and pick up some paraphernalia, that's for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 04:57 Well, I there was another place in. Are there that I like to go to, because I collect old records, cheapo records, and so I went there to got a lot of vinyl records and and things like that. I'm not sure if it's still around or not. I heard somewhere it wasn't, but then somebody else said it was still around.   Skip Vaccarello ** 05:13 Interesting. Your vinyl records? I mean, there are collectors item now,   Michael Hingson ** 05:16 oh yeah, well, I have a whole bunch here. So they're, they're fun.   Skip Vaccarello ** 05:23 Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I remember collecting some as a kid, but if you have some, you're probably worth a lot of money. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 05:30 I do. I even have a few. I bought duplicates of and they're still sealed. So they're probably worth, they probably are. They're definitely worth something, absolutely well, so you went to Harvard and all that. And then what did you do?   Skip Vaccarello ** 05:44 Well for my career? Yeah, I went, I went to Harvard. I was there in the in the late 60s and early 70s. And your listeners may recall from history that was a time of real turmoil. Oh, yeah, yeah. The war in Vietnam was going on. 1968 was sort of a pivotal year that there was a war in Vietnam. There were racial riots in the city. There was the rise of feminism. You know, drugs were rampant on the college campuses, so I went to school in the midst of that, and I'll have to say it really was not a fun time to be in school, although I made good friends, and we've maintained the friendship for for quite a long time, but, but anyway, so I was there, and when I graduated, I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And it was, it was interesting, because there had been a study done of my class at Harvard, and many people, you know, didn't know what to do. Some immediately went on to medical school or law school or something. But then there were a group of us that were, you know, just kind of wandering around and did various things. But anyway, I finally got my my first job. Well, one thing I should say is that I always felt an inclination for business, but business and capitalism at that time was, was kind of on the outs. It was bad words, bad word, bad word. But I kind of I enjoyed business anyway, I took a job. My first job was in a nonprofit organization helping mentally handicapped adults, and I was doing the sort of the business activities. And so I was doing what I want and doing something that I felt was socially useful. And I ended up staying in that that area for around seven years one of them was with a sort of a bigger organization. I ended up being the Assistant Executive Director. Then I was asked to start one, and I refer to her as my very first startup. We had taken over an old school building and renovated it and and began a program for these for the mentally handicapped people. It was a lot of fun to do that. So I did that. And then what happened is we would get contract work to help employ people. And one of the pieces of work we got was from a software companies. This was in 1978 1979 and personal computers were just cut out then. I mean, there are games and nothing much very useful. But anyway, we got a little job to package some games. And some of your listeners may not, may not remember this. Michael, you probably do. But software then on personal computers came on audio cassettes. Hard to believe you'd have to load this cassette into the computer and run it so that. So we, we had the job of kind of packaging these with the manual. And the night is I got to know the founder of the company and one of the founders of the company. He showed something that was in the works, which was a spreadsheet that eventually became known as VisiCalc, the very first spreadsheet in the industry. And then he asked me to join him and the other co founder, who was from the Toronto area, and we moved to Silicon Valley. And during that time I was I was really ready to make a change. Wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I was fascinated with personal computers. So went to Silicon Valley, and it was an amazing place. During the whole personal computer revolution, small industry, traveled around the country, you know, giving out, you know, demonstrating what a spreadsheet could do. And people were fascinated with that we had, I remember one day we had this sort of nerdy kid came into the office. It was Bill Gates. We had about five employees, and the whole industry was really small then, so it's fun to be part of that. And then for from there is sort of the what happens in in Silicon Valley and technology business, visit Corp was a really hot commodity, and then competition came in. They made some mistakes. They bought a company that specialized in network and communications, and I went over as the as the CEO and president of that we eventually spun it out as visit Corp eventually went out of business, but this little company we had, and we were successful and grew it, and in fact, sold that three different times, and, you know, continue to grow the company. And then I left that to have what I'd call my second startup, and this was to do computer based training to try to teach people. Of technical subjects on a computer, and that ended up morphing into one of the first e learning companies. So we did that, and that was that was a lot of fun, eventually sold that I did a little bit of executive coaching and mentoring. And one of the CEOs that I was mentoring asked me to join his organization, which was called applied weather technology. And I should say, I knew, in most cases, I really knew very little about the domain that I was going into, but I think pretty good business sense. So in this case, the company had software and services for the maritime industry, so we would help captains have the safest, most fuel efficient route to take around the world. So it was, it was really an interesting business. So I did that. I said I'd do it for a year. We ended up doing it for four years, and it was exciting and fun to be part of that. And they had a chance to travel around the world. We had offices around the world. So enjoyed that experience. And then then I left and to write the book that you mentioned finding God in Silicon Valley and and so anyway, that's what I ended up leaving that eventually got involved to help start a venture capital firm, a faith based venture capital firm called one flourish capital. So anyway, so that's a little bit of the background. There's a lot more I could talk about that, but that but that kind of gives your audience a little bit of an overview. I hadn't   Michael Hingson ** 11:26 thought about it for a while, but you mentioned the software back in 1979 80 and so on, all being put on audio cassettes. I remember the original Kurzweil Reading Machine for the blind used a Data General Nova three, so a small micro computer, well, kind of more like a mini computer, but it had a cassette recorder in the front of it, and every time you turn the reading machine on, you had to run the cassette to reload the Software, because there was no disk storage or anything available yet, right? And, okay, continue. I'm just saying so it was, it was kind of fun. It didn't take too long, and it and it really did work. I think once or twice there was some sort of a load error, and you had to start it over again. But really that didn't happen very often. It was, it was pretty good. Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 12:22 it was really interesting. I just threw one sort of funny story we had. Remember, we had a product that was returned to us and we couldn't figure out what was wrong. I forget what it was. Was probably one of the games we had, the best selling game, which was called micro chest anyway, decided to just put it into a an audio player. So he put the cassette in, and what we heard was a sermon by, I think it was a Baptist preacher, and so, and it was labeled, I think it was labeled micro chess. So anyway, the duplicator had, had messed it up. And so this, this pastor probably got our little beeps and beeps instead of his instead of his sermon. So it was kind of it was kind of   Michael Hingson ** 13:07 comical. I remember once I took one of the program cassettes and put it in my cassette recorder because I was really curious to to hear what it sounded like. And I had heard military teletypes and so on in the past. And when I heard this, I went, Ah, those teletypes are really slow compared to the code speed on these cassettes. But it was, it was a lot of fun,   Skip Vaccarello ** 13:31 yeah. Well, it's fun for me to be involved in all the changes. Their changes was so rapid in Silicon Valley. So I really appreciated my opportunity to be involved in all of that for the 40 some odd years that I was,   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 well, yeah, and, and it, and it certainly was rewarding. You were pretty successful at it, and it all worked really, really worked out well. And so, you know, can't complain about that. What, what got you into the whole idea of doing more faith based things? Was that going back to childhood? Or how did all that come? Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 14:10 I'll give you maybe a little bit of my my faith and story. So I grew up in a Christian home. We were I was raised as a Catholic, and as I said, when I went to college, though, there was all sorts of turmoil, and many of us rejected all sorts of things, including in faith. So it became and I can't say that I rejected it, but it just didn't. Wasn't very meaningful to me. I didn't think about it, I didn't pray, I didn't read the Bible. But if you were to ask me, I would have called myself a Christian, but certainly wasn't, wasn't practicing any of that. And then I when I was, I'm, this is maybe so that was that went on for about 15 years, or then I remember there was, we had, then children, a couple of children. And I remember I was in a business trip. I was in Paris, and I called home and I asked. My wife, Jackie, I said, Well, what did you do for the weekend? And she said, Well, I went to church. I said, You did what? That wasn't even in our conversation, and I was just so surprised that that's what she did. She said, Yeah, and she found it really helpful. And so anyway, when I came back, I followed her along and went to church. And I also found the messages really, meaningful. And anyway, I started to go, and then I decided this, I have to figure out if this stuff is really true or not. So I spent a fair amount of time, you know, listening to the sermons, but also looking at the evidence for Christian faith. And I became convinced that that Jesus is who He says He is. And so that at that point, I committed my, you know, my life to Him, and it became the most important thing in my life. And really, God, put two things on my heart once I made that and this was mid 80s by 1985 1986 two things on my heart. One was to do the best job I could, to try to live out my faith in business. And the second thing was to help people know who Jesus is. I was convinced that was this sort of the key to life, and so I enjoyed getting involved in in one on one conversations. And anyway, that ended up leading to starting with a group of people, what we eventually called the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast, and now it's called Connect Silicon Valley, feeling that, especially in Silicon Valley, you know, people may not go to go to a church. They may for a variety of reasons, you know, not want to even consider faith. But if there were a speaking event in which there was some celebrity, especially celebrities from the computer industry talking about their business, but also about their faith that might attract people. So that was the sort of the premise with which we started the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast, specifically for people who not were not necessarily your faith, but maybe curious about it. So we had series of great, great speakers. And it grew from, I think our first event was about 150 people, and in the last event, which I and then I the pandemic came, and we had about 1000 people at the at the last event. So it really grew. In fact, the people at there was one, it was at the Santa Clara Convention Center. They said it was the biggest event that they had at that time of the morning would start the event at 730 in the morning. So anyway, that's that was really helpful. And we and we just did that help open up conversations about faith and and it was, is, I think it was pretty successful doing that. So anyway, that was a little bit of of my background. And maybe one thing I didn't say, but I had this sense, you know, as I grew up, my family, we didn't have very much money, and but as I began to achieve some success and some financial success, I realized that it seemed like there was something missing in my life, and and later on, I learned, and I didn't know this at the time, Blaise Pascal called that a God shaped vacuum, or void that's in each one of us, and most people try to fill it with success or money or whatever else. But as Pascal says, and I agree, the only thing that can adequately fill that void is God. And I didn't know it, but that was ended up being, being true for me. I felt that there was that there was something missing, and life wasn't all about, you know, success and finances and and anyway, I'm glad that I took that journey. I'm glad for the people that helped me along in that journey to become a follower of Jesus. I   Michael Hingson ** 18:39 hear you. I know for me, I've, I've always had, I think, a pretty strong faith. My father and I talked a lot about God and religion and so on as I was growing up, and he read things to me, so I was, was pretty used to the whole concept right from the outset and and one of the things that I learned along the way, and I think it fits in fits into what you just said, is, as you said, people try to fill that, that void with so many different things. And the thing we never do is we never listen. And the thing that frustrates me most about prayer is that people are so busy praying to God about what they want that they forget God already knows. The issue is, are we really willing and and are we? Are we ready to take the time to listen, to get the answers?   Skip Vaccarello ** 19:38 And that is such a good point. Michael, I absolutely no, that's the issue. Go ahead. No, as I say, I agree with you that, you know that a lot of us and I do this time to time, I just pray, okay, that's it, but taking the time to then listen, and then, if you really are aware of it, you know, you'll see various things along the way where God is is communicating. Creating with you, either through other people and things that your opportunities, you're presented with, and so on. So it's that whole idea, I think in the Bible, it talks about praying continually, and in my own myself, I kind of have an ongoing, just a dialog in my head. Well, God, what do I do in this situation or or thank him for something I see, or whatever, but, but, yeah, that whole idea of just being aware and listening is a very important one. Yes, very good point. Thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 20:29 Well, and one of the things that we talked a lot about as I was growing up was the fact that, yes, we believe in God, we believe in Jesus and so on. But there are other religions that really, when you analyze them, come essentially to the same place. They're peaceful, they're loving. And unfortunately, we have all too many people who say there's only one religion that works, and that just isn't so either. Well, I I think that there, there there are issues, but the fact is that there are a lot of people who believe in God, and come at it from a different point of view, but still believe in God.   Skip Vaccarello ** 21:10 When I agree, I think that there is there the lot of there's a lot of commonality among all the world religions, and there's a most of them all have a moral code to them. In fact, the Golden Rule, do unto others, as you would have them do unto you, is common to all religions, but at the same time, there are also some real differences. And you know, it's interesting where you know what you said, and many other people say that, that there are many different paths to God. But typically, if you were to ask anyone in any one of those religions, they would say, know that if it's a Muslim, I think that we have the path or Jewish person, right? You know, you know, and so on. And so I would encourage people to, I mean, you may not like this idea, but, you know, I would, I would, I believe that really, I mean, I'm covering this in an upcoming podcast, that that Jesus is, is, is the way. I mean, he's the only, the only one in a in any of these world religions, most, or most world religions, you know, say that, that we have to sort of earn our way. You know, to salvation. Am I a good enough person to earn eternal life? Whereas with Jesus, the other way around, he wants us. He's very, very inclusive and and offers his love and His forgiveness to everyone. And you know, he says, you know, in John 14 six, I am the I Am the Truth or way in the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. So it's a that is an exclusive statement, but it also Christian faith is inclusive anyone who wants to come. It's not, you know, is is ready to come. So we probably don't want to get into that too much. But, no,   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 I don't, not too much. But by the same token, I take it in a little bit different slant. Not I don't I agree with what you said, but I also know that I am goes beyond what we're talking about. God in in Exodus And Moses said, Who do I say? Is Sending me? Says I am, that I am, thou shalt say I am, has sent me to you. And I think we I think a lot of people miss that, and they miss the fact that I am is, is God,   Skip Vaccarello ** 23:33 yeah. However, where is your way? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 yeah. And I think that that's the thing, and I think that that was what Jesus was saying as well. Because Jesus also said, I am my father. Are One. And all the works that I do, greater works you can do as well. I think we, what we, what we really need to do is to recognize that, in fact, from a mindset standpoint, it's ultimately believing in God. And if you're an atheist, that's fine. Sorry if we're offending you, but that, that's a different story. But I but I do know that that in reality, we all need to recognize that if we listen, if we really work at it. We can be better people than than we probably think we are.   Skip Vaccarello ** 24:24 Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that that is the you know. The point of it is, is, you know, to be, you know, the, you know, the message of Jesus is one of love. I mean, he loves everyone, and we're called, you know, to love everyone. That that means not just fellow Christians, but no matter what faith you're part of, or whatever you know you may have done or do or whatever. Yeah, we're called to love everyone. You think how different the world would be if we all really acted that way?   Michael Hingson ** 24:53 Gee, wouldn't that be something, especially today, right? And it's absolutely, yeah. Yeah, absolutely crazy. So the prayer breakfast and so on, kind of, I assume, ended when the pandemic began. Well,   Skip Vaccarello ** 25:08 it did for a while, yeah, but there is a group that that's that's restarted it, and we, by the way, we changed the name from Silicon Valley prayer breakfast, and a few years ago, we changed to connect Silicon Valley, and we did that because we really wanted to be open to people. It's not an event just for Christians, but for anybody that was interested in in attending. So it is active, and in fact, it's, it's now had a I'm only minimally involved, and they've made me Chairman Emeritus, but, but there's, there's a new group that's running it, and they've had several different events. So it is, is going on, if any of your listeners are in and around Silicon Valley, it's called Connect Silicon Valley, and I'd encourage them to go. I think they have a speaker that we had earlier. It's coming up in March. I think it's promote. Hawk. Promote is a one of the top venture capitalists in the world. He's with Norwest ventures, and I think he's, he's a speaker at an event that's coming up in a few weeks.   Michael Hingson ** 26:10 I may end up being in San Francisco, but not till May. I'll have to find out when they meet and see if there's a way to get down there. Be kind of fun.   26:17 Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 26:19 But it's, I think faith in and having beliefs as extremely important to do. And one of the things that I always quote when I am giving speeches is something Jimmy Carter once said, which is, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think that all too often we we miss the principles part.   Skip Vaccarello ** 26:45 Yeah, that's right, I agree, Yep, yeah, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 26:51 It is something that we need to do. Well, I'm glad that connect Silicon Valley is is still continuing to function. That's really a pretty important thing to do. Well, when did your   Skip Vaccarello ** 27:04 I think it is especially in, you know, in Silicon Valley, which is a pretty secular place, yeah, you know. And I think it's a secular place because, you know, it's, it attracts a lot of people with Type A personalities, people that are feeling very self sufficient. And why do I need, why do I need God? But, but it's been interesting. I really feel that there's a movement of God going on in Silicon Valley, and it has been for a while. And you know, what's kind of motivated us, our vision with Connect Silicon Valley was that if Silicon Valley ever could be known as a place not just of technology and innovation and wealth creation, but a place of God, the world would take notice, and to me, there's lots of evidence that that's beginning to happen.   Michael Hingson ** 27:48 Yeah, well, I think that's true. And sometimes we're not necessarily hearing a loud voice, but the voice is still there, and more and more people are going to get drawn to it, I'm sure.   Skip Vaccarello ** 28:01 Well, I think so. I mean, ultimately, as we said earlier, I think each one of us has a sense of a need for something beyond ourselves, and people might call it a force or a god or whatever else, and, and so I think there is that need and and, and hopefully, I would encourage your listeners, you know, to explore the evidence for faith to, you know, take a risk. And, you know, people might have been turned off by religious people, and I can understand that. But, you know, take look at it. And I would specifically say, Look at what, what Jesus has to say. And take, take the time to look at the evidence, because there's plenty of evidence out there for Christian faith.   Michael Hingson ** 28:41 I participated in a number of programs. It's a Methodist program, but it's ecumenical, called the walk to Emmaus. And have you heard of that? No, I haven't. It's It's actually called a short course in Christianity. It's not intended to convince people what they should believe, but rather it's to develop leadership within the church. Whatever church it doesn't, it doesn't, although it was started by the Methodist. Actually, that's an outgrowth of a Catholic program called crusio, but it's the same thing. And when I was lay director of one of the walks to Emmaus, and we could talk about the history, but walk to Emmaus is basically based on after Jesus was crucified and Rose. That day, there were people walking to a town called Emmaus, and he joined them, and they didn't know who he was, and they talked, and they all went to to Emmaus, and they sat down and they had dinner. And it was a dinner that He revealed Himself to them, and then he disappeared. But the whole idea is, it's a way to bring a little bit more enlightenment to leaders. But one of the things that, as the lay director, I had to do was to give a talk on perseverance and so on. And of course. Thought that has always struck with me, and I think it goes beyond Christianity, Christianity, but Tolstoy once said The biggest problem with Christianity is a lot of people don't practice it. There's truth to that. And what you you know you said earlier that so many people and are not necessarily the best Christians, and there's so much of that we really need to go back to basics and everything that we do.   Skip Vaccarello ** 30:28 Yeah, I think that a lot of people get turned off to faith, or in Christian faith, because they look at the some of the behavior of people who claim to be Christians. And the fact is that every one of us is flawed in some ways, in one way or another. What I like to do is, is look at people who what was their life before they you know, they had Jesus in their life, and what's their life after that? And, and you can often see the difference. But people are we're all. We all make mistakes. We're all imperfect people, and, and, and in faith, the church is not for it's not for perfect people. It's for sinners, people that are imperfect. And that's that's really why, why? You know why Jesus came to us? So to why would you add encourage your listeners to try not to get turned off by some of the behavior of Christians, because some of it is, is certainly not good, but to really look at what Jesus says, and, you know, engage people who who are believers, and I think they admit that what's what's right and what's at fault and so on, the basic principles are the basic principles,   Michael Hingson ** 31:35 and they hold no matter where you come from and what you do. And it's important to really deal with that. Although I'm with Mark Twain, I wonder if God had written man because he was disappointed in the monkeys, but that's another story   31:49 I had heard that crook.   Michael Hingson ** 31:52 So, so you wrote the book finding God in Silicon Valley. When did you write that?   Skip Vaccarello ** 31:56 It was, it was published in 2015   Michael Hingson ** 32:00 Okay, and   Skip Vaccarello ** 32:02 it's been, yeah, it really was an outgrowth of some of the talks people gave at the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast. And I felt that it really the reason for writing. It was to encourage people to to consider faith, because in the book, they'd read about Silicon Valley leaders who in their faith story, how they came to faith, what they went through. Some, you know, some stories were a little bit like mine, where they found the evidence, but others, you know, went through personal tragedy and found faith that way. And then the stories are also about how they're trying to live out their faith, day to day, and whatever, whatever business they're involved with. So they're a variety of people. There are nonprofit leaders, companies, CEOs, venture capitalists and so on. And you know, it's, I think we all like to hear stories, and that was what was attractive about the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast. I know that sometimes when I'm sitting in church on a Sunday morning, and I may not quite remember what the pastor said, but I usually remember the stories that he tells. And so I think stories are an effective way to communicate things. In fact, I'd call Jesus the Greatest storyteller of all time. He told his stories often in parables. And those are things that we, you know, that we that we remember. So yeah, the the book was I what I enjoyed it. I just enjoyed is I just enjoyed sitting down with people and hearing their stories and interviewing them, and I did the best I could to compile those stories. There were 26 of them in the book, and yeah, it's it's available on on Amazon, so I encourage people to to pick it up and take a look. And you can go through with a person you know, or one story, or, you know, that seemed to attract your attention. So it was a, it was quite a, quite a project to undertake, but I'm glad that I did it. And let me just maybe the I'll tell you the way I got the idea is I went back to a Harvard reunion. This might have been in the mid 1990s and there was, they had a little sometimes at these reunions, they have little groups that get together. And there was one that I was as part of a Christian cohort, and even though I wasn't a Christian in college anyway, as part of this group. And we're all, we're given a book called Finding God at Harvard. And you know, although Harvard was founded as a, you know, as a, as a Christian college, it's certainly not thought of that these days. And so the writer Kelly Monroe, and she's now, her name is Kelly Monroe Kohlberg, had put together stories of Harvard graduates in how they came to faith and what they were doing. So I thought was a great book, and I so that's what planted the idea in my mind. I said, well, people don't think of Harvard as a place of of faith. They certainly don't think of Silicon Valley as that. So I had the idea, and this was in the mid 1990s but as I said, it wasn't published until 2015 because I found it was really difficult for me to work full time and write the book. So after I left my last full time position is when I had the time to write the book.   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Well. Well, and I assume it's been pretty successful.   Skip Vaccarello ** 35:03 That's beyond, I think. So it's, I mean, I get some, you know, to me, successful is, if people have read it and they say, Yeah, you know, and you know, I'm considering faith. And to me, that's, that's the success of it. So it's, anyway, it was a, it was really quite an experience. And and happy to do it. And I'm still in the process. I'm looking at a couple of other books now, maybe following up with and writing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:30 Writing is fun, as you know, I've written, yeah, now three books, and I haven't figured out what to write next, but I'm sure something is going to come along. I haven't written fiction yet, and I haven't really come up with a a hot idea yet, but we'll see. It's kind of fun to think about,   Skip Vaccarello ** 35:50 sure, absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 35:52 but, but, you know, we we we do what we can, and we keep moving forward, and that's what it's really about. But it is a lot of fun. And meanwhile, I do get to travel and speak, and I'm working with accessibe and helping to make internet websites more usable and inclusive. That's something that VisiCalc never did, was to make an accessible version of the product. But that's okay. That's okay. It took it took Excel and and other products a while before they became accessible, too. So not a problem. We, we, we all grow, which is what it's really about. But so what? What is your Well, let me ask it this way. So you wrote the book. You've retired and so on. What kind of projects do you have coming up, other than thinking about other books?   Skip Vaccarello ** 36:46 Well, a few things you know that I'm doing right now. As I mentioned, I was part of a startup venture capital coming company called one flourish capital, and I'm still a little bit involved, but not as involved as I was there on a second fund. And I was very involved in the first fund, so I spent a little bit of time with that, but I'm more engaged with things like, I love mentoring. I mentor some students, and mentor some entrepreneurs and and enjoy those those opportunities I've and as I said, I'm putting together a series of podcasts, not as active as you are in it, but I did a series last year, and I titled it, who do you want to become, encouraging people to put together a personal strategic plan. You know, when we're involved in business, is often the company does a strategic plan. Of you know, what's our vision, our mission, our values, our goals and so on. And something that I've practiced for many years is putting together a personal strategic plan. So some of that podcast series is just encouraging people to consider doing that, which again, give a clearer direction for where, where you want your life to go, where God wants your life life to go. So anyway, that was a podcast series, and right now I'm in the midst of of putting together series that I'm calling why I believe, exploring the critical questions about Christian faith. And so I'm going around interviewing experts on, you know, some of the tougher questions you know, you've we talked about one earlier, is Jesus the only way? Other questions, you know, what about what about heaven? How? Another question is, how could a loving God, you know, allow innocent people to suffer? So question, questions like that, that that are often stumbling blocks for people. And I know, question answering, questions like that was very helpful for me in my faith journey. So anyway, I'm in the process of of putting that podcast series, which I expect will be ready in April, and if your listeners are are interested, it'll be on, it's on skip, vacarello.com, so that's where you can find the first podcast series. The last name is V, A, C, C, A, R, E, L, L, O. So anyway, it's there. It's also it'll be on Spotify and Apple and YouTube. So anyway, so I'm involved in that, but I should also say that one of the important things that I do is we moved here to be close to her daughter and grandchildren. So I love spending the time, you know, with my grandchildren. And we just traveled out to Spokane, Washington to see the other family and and that's just, that's just so enjoyable. So while I'm actively involved in in doing things like that, I I, you know, love, you know, spending time with the grandchildren, and also I try to stay, you know, physically active. Still play some tennis and golf and pickleball, and, you know, it's so, you know it's and anyway, I'm involved in a lot of different things, and enjoy them. You   Michael Hingson ** 39:53 know, it's interesting. You were talking about the issue of, how could a loving God let any. And suffer. My reaction to that question, and I've heard it a lot, my reaction to that has always been, how could God not it's really an issue of we listen to God, and what did we miss along the way that would have prevented us from suffering, but God gave us free will and free choice.   Skip Vaccarello ** 40:18 That's exactly right. And so that is the crux of the issue. We have free choice. And you know, when some of those choices aren't good ones that we make, and grad doesn't force anything on any of us, and that was probably one of the things he gave us, was that we're free, free to choose, and we can choose bad or we can choose good,   Michael Hingson ** 40:37 yeah. And the question is, it's always the question, do we learn from mistakes that we made? And, you know, I have rejected the concept of failure. I think that failure is such a horrible thing to say. I think that there are things that don't work out. But did we fail that means we can't ever deal with it or do anything about it? Or can we take the time to analyze what didn't work right? And even when we did something and it worked out, could we do it better? That's one of the basic cruxes of live like a guide dog. My latest book, which is all about teaching people how to control fear, and the whole idea is that we don't take nearly enough time at the end of the day, or at some point in the day, to do more introspection and self analysis to understand why whatever happens to us happens to us, and what could we have done to make it have a better outcome, or even a or did we come up with The best outcome possible?   Skip Vaccarello ** 41:41 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I absolutely agree. What did we learn from it? I mean, you would see that time and time again. Some of the most successful people had many failures along the way, and you know, hopefully you're going to learn from that failure, and you're going to try something else, you're going to fail, and you're going to try something else and, and that's, I think that's just what goes on in life   Michael Hingson ** 42:02 well, and that's why I say that it isn't really a failure. It is a mistake, perhaps, right? We didn't intend for it to be a mistake, but, but if it, if it was a mistake, and we acknowledge that, why and what do we do about it? And I think that's one of the important things that so many of us could do a better job of thinking about was, why did this happen? What was I afraid of, or what could I have done differently? And the fact is that if we open our minds to those questions, we'll get the answers, yep, yep, I agree, which is, I think, really important.   Skip Vaccarello ** 42:41 I was listening to, I don't remember the I wish I could remember it, but I was watching something on television the other night, and there was a quote that kind of stuck with me, and it's in the quote we're doing something like this, is it was an encouragement of, I think it was a mother to a son. He said, Don't, don't think of what life has done to you. Think of what life has done for you. What we're talking about is you might have run into some difficulty, some okay, but maybe that's an opportunity to learn from it, and to go on and to do something else and and, you know, I think life, life is like that. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 43:15 you know, people talk to me a lot about the World Trade Center, and don't you have guilt of surviving while other people didn't, right? And and I tell people, no, I don't have any guilt about that, because the fact is, I did survive. Why others did not is is really, in part, possibly an issue of what choices they made. But the bottom line is, it isn't whether I feel guilty or not about surviving because I had no control over the World Trade Center happening. What I do have control over the though is how I deal with it and how I move forward, and that's the choice that I get to make.   Skip Vaccarello ** 43:56 Yeah, very good point,   Michael Hingson ** 43:59 which I think is really important. And someone asked me that just the other day, and then that was in this is the response that I gave, is, the reality is, it's we have no control over a lot of things that that may happen to us, but we do have total control over how we deal with it, no matter what it is, yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 44:19 and you think of it, the, you know, I'm sure, the lives that you've changed, you know, writing about that and talking about that with your speaking appearances, and it was such a tragedy that, you know, the 1000s of what was 1700 or 18, I don't remember the number, the number of people that died in that, and they're all 200 Yeah, 3200. Was all the people that were affected by it. You know, on the other hand, I mean stories like yours came out of that, and you've been an encouragement to many, many other people so that you know, you've, you know, taken advantage of that opportunity, and you've affected the lives of many, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:56 tell me more about what you're doing today with mentoring students and so on. More. How do you do that? Or how do they find you? How does that all work?   Skip Vaccarello ** 45:03 Well, I one of the things is I mentioned earlier that there's a whole bunch of things that have gone on in Silicon Valley where I where I really feel that that God is at work. And there was a guy that I got to know that I actually mentored him a little bit, and he founded an organization called scholars of finance. And it started in a and it's not a quote a Christian base, but it's a, it's sort of an ethics based organization. And his idea was to to go to college campuses and encourage people who were in finance, accounting, finance of some sort or another, to look at the ethical side of business. So he put together this thing called scholars of finance, and then they were started on maybe a couple of universities in the Bay Area. I think they now want maybe 70 campuses around the US and and he's so I've had the opportunity to speak at a number of those campuses, some in person, most of them virtually. And the idea is that they have people like me that come and speak and try to, you know, we tell stories, encourage people about, maybe the ethical issues that we ran across and, and how you can kind of navigate some of those issues and, and, and part of that whole program is, if you want to put yourself up to mentoring, you know you can have the opportunity to mentor some students. So I have, and I've had the opportunity, and I have the opportunity to mentor some students and and I really, I really love it. And what are the differences I find? I think that, you know, sometimes there are negative things that people say about college students these days, but one of the things that I find encouraging is that they're really open to to mentoring, to getting advice from an from an older generation. I remember when I was in school was what was the mantra that you don't trust anyone over 30, you know they don't know what they're talking about, but, but I find students these days are really looking for that for that advice and guidance and and so I enjoy when I have those opportunities to speak to people. And I would say also that a lot of these students are incredibly motivated and driven. And it's, it's just, it's interesting to see. It was, I think it was even different than than when I was in when I was in college. But anyway, that's that's kind of a fun thing to do. And then I also have entrepreneurs, people that either find me or, you know, that may be a company that we've invested in, that have an opportunity to help those, those entrepreneurs, with their business plans. And one of the, one of the areas I like to focus on is helping them develop the right culture. I think, to have a successful business, you have a successful business is you need a culture, you know, a positive culture that's encouraging to people. So, you know, I do that. I try to encourage them to start out and build the right culture. You know, in your organization, doesn't mean that business will succeed, you know, but that's one of the things I like to to help entrepreneurs consider as they're building a business. So it's not just about the product. Certainly, you need a product, and you need to market that product, and often you need technology to make a success. But ultimately, it's the people in that organization and how you deal with them, and how you deal with your customers, and how you deal with your vendors and so on that can can help make or break a business. So anyway, those are the the mentoring opportunities that I have, and as I say and do, enjoy   Michael Hingson ** 48:31 them. What are some of the typical questions that students ask that you find to be sort of common among a lot of students?   Skip Vaccarello ** 48:40 Well, they'll, they'll, you know, they'll sometimes ask me about, you know, ethical situations that I've come across. Often, they'll ask, since I've been involved in the in the venture capital business, is, you know, what is it? What is, what does a venture capitalist look like? You know, how can I get, get get funded? And that, that's sort of an ongoing topic of of conversation, and it's in that environment, you know, it certainly changes a lot over time, but that's a that's a common, a common side of it. You know, occasionally there'll be discussions on technology, and I'm not, even though I've been involved in Silicon Valley for a long time, not a technologist, and they're real, usually, typically very far advanced in that, in that side of things. But, you know, get questions on, you know, what's a go to market strategy? How do I, if I have this product, what do I, what do I do with it? And often, you know, just, you know, I get presented a business plan, what do you think about this, and you know, where can I make changes? And sometimes, you know, often they're very well done, but sometimes there might be some, some blind spots, things that they don't, that they don't see. And interestingly enough, and this is not, you know, something that that I push for, but some of the students then they, you know, they pick me up. Ask because they they've seen my bio, and I've had a number of students who were weren't brought up with any faith background, that asked me about faith and what was my story, and in what should I do to consider faith? So I, you know, I find that very interesting, and I'm very happy to answer any questions that they may have. So that's that's enjoyable when those opportunities come.   Michael Hingson ** 50:22 Yeah, it's kind of cool to be able to enter into those discussions and just talk a little bit about faith and what what they're looking for, and what you're looking for and so on. And getting a chance to in a in a non confrontive way, help people understand the value of faith, whatever that may end up being for them, I think is important to do, yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 50:50 and often, you know, I end up, well, I, well, I, you know, I'll offer things if they ask. But I usually what I like to do is just ask lots of questions to them. And I think it's very helpful, you know, where are they coming from? What are they considered? What are their experiences been? You know, especially if it's in the, in the faith environment. And I think it really helps open up conversations, when, when, when you end up not just being there as the, you know, as the advisor that knows everything, because certainly I don't, but it's very helpful, I think, as a method, as a mentor, is to ask lots of questions.   Michael Hingson ** 51:29 I love to have question time when I speak, because I find every so often I'll get a new question. It doesn't happen as often as it used to, but every so often, something new comes along and and or people ask questions in a different way. And what I really love about it is it helps me learn, because it makes me think, and I think that's as important as anything else. And as I tell people when I'm talking about speaking or doing these podcasts, if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone else on the podcast, or when I'm speaking, I'm not doing my job, right, right? Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 52:05 I agree with you. Yeah. I think I learned more. You know, occasionally I'm asked to give a sermon at a church or a speak at a at a public place, and I think that I learned when you're I think I learned more than anything else when I'm when I'm gonna have to prepare for these, these opportunities, isn't it fun? Oh, it is. It certainly is.   Michael Hingson ** 52:26 Well, so you've been retired for a while. What kind of advice would you give to somebody who may be thinking about retiring?   Skip Vaccarello ** 52:34 Good question, you know, and it's funny sometimes people ask me that question, and I think that, well, I'm retired from making money, but I'm still pretty busy doing things. And that would be my encouragement to people, is to, you know, don't, don't just think you're going to go sit on a beach or or whatever else. I mean, I think that that can get boring pretty quickly. But, you know, and if I would say, continue to do what you're doing if you love it, you know. But consider what your maybe your spouse has to say, your children or grandchildren have to say, and and, you know, make sure you spend, spend time with with them. But my encouragement would be just is to keep busy, find activities. If it's in your case, or my case, has been doing some writing or podcasts, or, you know, whatever it is that you're passionate about, just just you have an opportunity now to do it, but also to take time for relationships. And one thing I didn't mention that is one thing I encouraged students to think about, it's really a question of life. Is life is about relationships. And you know, you want to hopefully along the way, people haven't sacrificed relationships. So you see that sometimes in business, where they sacrifice, you know, their family or other relationships for success in business. But you know, when you're retired is a time to eat, to deepen those those relationships, to really spend some time, you know, with with other people, so and and, as I say, to do things that you love. The other thing I'd say is, is to keep moving. You might I had a chance to visit my mom about a few weeks ago. She's in she's in Cape Cod, in Massachusetts, and she's 103 103 and a half. And three and a half and and people ask her, What's your key to longevity? And she says, Just keep moving. And although she's not physically as active, she tries to get up and keep moving. And she's also one that's and always keeps alert. She volunteered she's not, she hasn't, doesn't have the capacity to do that now, but up till about 9998 she was, she had volunteer activities going on. So, you know, stay engaged, keep keep moving, keep doing things and and anyway, that's my encouragement. Don't, you know, don't just think that it's going to be, you know, time at the beach, or certainly not time in front of the. Television, you know, keep moving, if you can, and keep keep mentally stimulated.   Michael Hingson ** 55:06 That's the real key. Is mental stimulation, I think is extremely important. Just I think retirement is, is overrated in terms of what it really or what people think it is. And I think mental stimulation is is an important thing. And when you're stopped working at a job full time, because it's time to not do that anymore, you should have more time to be able to develop the relationships stimulate your brain, keep your brain thinking, and maybe go off and look at doing things in a different direction. That always is a great challenge. Absolutely,   Skip Vaccarello ** 55:40 yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a very, it's a neat time of life now. I mean, I enjoyed the time that I had while I was working, but, you know, when you retire, you have a little bit more freedom you had before. So, you know, but use it wisely. It's really true with anything we all, we all are given, you know, resources of various sorts, and time is one of the most valuable resources that we have. And you know, we're, you know, invested. Invest it wisely. Because, you know, life is life is short, and as I get older, realize how short life is, so invest that time wisely and and invest in relationships, as I say, is probably the most important   Michael Hingson ** 56:24 thing. Yeah, I think that's extremely crucial, and makes a lot of sense. And you'll meet people and find things that you never knew before, and you continue to learn, which is what it's all about. Yep, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for spending an hour with us today, and in doing this, we'll have to do it again, and I think it'll be a lot of fun, but I really enjoy you being here and appreciate you taking the time   Skip Vaccarello ** 56:48 Well, Michael, thank you so much. I've enjoyed it. It's fun for us to to reappoint, yeah, yeah. And it's a it's a great conversation, and hopefully listeners will get some benefit from it, but I've enjoyed the time that I've that I've spent with you today again. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 57:06 Well, I hope all of you have enjoyed listening and watching us, and that you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or hearing the podcast. We really appreciate five star ratings a lot. And just your thoughts. So if you have any thoughts about today's episode, please email me. I'm easy to reach. It's Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, and if you want to subscribe to the podcast, do it wherever you're listening, or you can always go to Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o n.com/podcast, and I, and I hope you'll do that, but also skip for you and all, all people out there who are encountering our episode today, if you know of someone, including yourself, who might want to be or you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, I'd love you to reach out to me. We're always looking for more people to have on and talk about various things, and like I said, for me, in part, I get to learn what we do that. So we really appreciate you finding other guests for us. So don't ever hesitate to reach out and let us know if people we ought to interact with. But again, skip. I just want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate your time.   Skip Vaccarello ** 58:24 Michael, thank you again. Enjoy the rest of the day. Appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 58:32 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

On a very busy episode, Spider-Man gets in a lot of fights in and around the World Trade Center and ends up serving time in the clink! Join us as we discuss... Reversing our opinion on Andor season 2 and how we feel about Star Wars. Also feeling the hype of the Superman and Fantastic Four!Revisiting the decision to remove the twin towers from the first Spider-Man movie!Trying to figure out if Spider-Man can just become a new super-hero altogether if someone steals his identity!Daredevil, always swinging off a flag pole with no flag, wherever you see him!The X-Men TAS Podcast just opened a SECRET reddit group, join by clicking here! We are also on Twitch sometimes… click here to go to our page and follow and subscribe so you can join in on all the mysterious fun to be had! Also, make sure to subscribe to our podcast via Buzzsprout or iTunes and tell all your friends about it! Follow Willie Simpson on Bluesky and please join our Facebook Group! Last but not least, if you want to support the show, you can Buy Us a Coffee as well!

Who knows the meaning of the term “Business Continuity management” without looking it up? Our guest this week, Alex Fullick, is intimately familiar with the term and its ramifications. I first met Alex when we were connected as participants in a conference in London this past October sponsored by Business Continuity International. The people involved with “Business Continuity management” were described to me as the “what if people”. They are the people no one pays attention to, but who plan for emergency and unexpected situations and events that especially can cause interruptions with the flow or continuity of business. Of course, everyone wants the services of the business continuity experts once something unforeseen or horrific occurs. Alex was assigned to introduce me at the conference. Since the conference I have even had the pleasure to appear on his podcast and now, he agreed to reciprocate.   Our conversation covers many topics related to emergencies, business continuity and the mindsets people really have concerning business flow and even fear. Needless to say, this topic interests me since I directly participated in the greatest business interruption event we have faced in the world, the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.   Alex freely discusses fear, emergency planning and how we all can improve our chances of dealing with any kind of emergency, personal or business related, by developing the proper mindset. He points out how so often people may well plan for emergencies at work and sometimes they even take the step of developing their own business continuity mindset, but they rarely do the same for their personal lives.   Alex is the author of eight books on the subject and he now is working on book 9. You can learn more about them in our podcast show notes. I think you will gain a lot of insight from what Alex has to say and I hope his thoughts and comments will help you as you think more now about the whole idea of business continuity.       About the Guest:   Alex Fullick has been working in the Business Continuity Management, Disaster Recovery, and Operational Resilience industries as a consultant/contractor for just over 28 years. Alex is also the founder and Managing Director of StoneRoad, a consulting and training firm specializing in BCM and Resilience and is the author of eight books…and working on number nine.   He has numerous industry certifications and has presented at prestigious conferences around the globe including Manila, Seoul, Bucharest, Brisbane, Toronto, and London (to name a few). In July of 2017 he created the highly successful and top-rated podcast focusing on Business Continuity and Resilience ‘Preparing for the Unexpected'. The show aims to touch on any subject that directly or indirectly touches on the world of disasters, crises, well-being, continuity management, and resilience. The first of its kind in the BCM and Resilience world and is still going strong after thirty plus seasons, reaching an audience around the globe. Alex was born in England but now calls the city of Guelph, Ontario, Canada, his home. Ways to connect Alex:   www.linkedin.com/in/alex-fullick-826a694   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet and unexpected is anything that has nothing to do with inclusion or diversity. As I've said many times today, our guest is someone I got to meet last year, and we'll talk about that. His name is Alex Bullock, and Alex and I met because we both attended a conference in London in October about business continuity. And I'm going to let Alex define that and describe what that is all about. But Alex introduced me at the conference, and among other things, I convinced him that he had to come on unstoppable mindset. And so we get to do that today. He says he's nervous. So you know, all I gotta say is just keep staring at your screens and your speakers and and just keep him nervous. Keep him on edge. Alex, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're   Alex Fullick ** 02:19 here. Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate the invite, and I'm glad to be here today. And yeah, a little nervous, because usually it's me on the other side of the microphone interviewing people. So I don't fit in this chair too often   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 I've been there and done that as I recall, yes,   Alex Fullick ** 02:37 yes, you were a guest of mine. Oh, I guess when did we do that show? A month and a half, two months ago? Or something, at least,   Michael Hingson ** 02:45 I forget, yeah. And I said the only charge for me coming on your podcast was you had to come on this one. So there you go. Here I am. Yeah, several people ask me, Is there a charge for coming on your podcast? And I have just never done that. I've never felt that I should charge somebody to come on the podcast, other than we do have the one rule, which is, you gotta have fun. If you can't have fun, then there's no sense being on the podcast. So, you know, that works out. Well, tell us about the early Alex, growing up and, you know, all that sort of stuff, so that people get to know you a little bit.   Alex Fullick ** 03:16 Oh, the early Alex, sure. The early Alex, okay, well, a lot of people don't know I was actually born in England myself, uh, Farnam Surrey, southwest of London, so until I was about eight, and then we came to Canada. Grew up in Thunder Bay, Northwestern Ontario, and then moved to the Greater Toronto Area, and I've lived all around here, north of the city, right downtown in the city, and now I live an hour west of it, in a city called Guelph. So that's how I got here. Younger me was typical, I guess, nothing   Michael Hingson ** 03:56 special. Went to school, high school and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, no.   Alex Fullick ** 04:02 Brainiac. I was working my first job was in hospitality, and I thought that's where I was going to be for a long time, because I worked my way up to I did all the positions, kitchen manager, Assistant Manager, cooks, bartender, server, did everything in there was even a company trainer at one point for a restaurant chain, and then did some general managing. But I got to a point where computers were going to start coming in to the industry, and I thought, well, I guess I should learn how to use these things, shouldn't I? And I went to school, learned how to use them, basic using, I'm not talking about building computers and networks and things like that, just the user side of things. And that was, did that for six months, and then I thought I was going back into the industry. And no fate had. Something different for me. What happened? Well, my best friend, who is still my best friend, 30 years later, he was working for a large financial institution, and he said, Hey, we need some help on this big program to build some call trees. When you're finished, he goes, get your foot in the door, and you could find something else within the bank. So I went, Okay, fine. Well, they called the position business recovery planner, and I knew absolutely nothing about business recovery or business continuity. Not a single thing. I'd never even heard the term yeah and but for some reason, I just took to it. I don't know what it was at the time, but I just went, this is kind of neat. And I think it was the fact that I was learning something different, you know, I wasn't memorizing a recipe for Alfredo sauce or something like that, you know, it was completely different. And I was meeting and working with people at every level, sitting in meetings with senior vice presidents and CEOs and giving them updates, and, you know, a data analyst, data entry clerk, and just talking. And I went, This is so much fun, you know, and that's I've been doing that now for over 28 years.   Michael Hingson ** 06:14 Well, I I had not really heard much of the term business continuity, although I understand emergency preparedness and such things, because I did that, of course, going into the World Trade Center, and I did it for, well, partly to be prepared for an emergency, but also partly because I was a leader of an office, and I felt that I needed to know What to do if there were ever an emergency, and how to behave, because I couldn't necessarily rely on other people, and also, in reality, I might even be the only person in the office. So it was a survival issue to a degree, but I learned what to do. And of course, we know the history of September 11 and me and all that, but the reality is that what I realized many years later was that the knowledge that I learned and gained that helped me on September 11 really created a mindset that allowed me to be able to function and not be as I Put it to people blinded or paralyzed by fear, the fear was there. I would be dumb to say I wasn't concerned, but the fear helped me focus, as opposed to being something that overwhelmed and completely blocked me from being capable and being able to function. So I know what you're saying. Well, what exactly is business continuity?   Alex Fullick ** 07:44 You know, there are people who are going to watch this and listen and they're going to want me to give a really perfect definition, but depending on the organization, depending on leadership, depending on the guiding industry organization out there, business continuity, Institute, Disaster Recovery Institute, ISO NIST and so many other groups out there. I'm not going to quote any of them as a definition, because if I if I say one the others, are going to be mad at me, yell at you, yeah, yeah. Or if I quote it wrong, they'll get mad at me. So I'm going to explain it the way I usually do it to people when I'm talking in the dog park, yeah, when they ask what I'm doing, I'll say Business Continuity Management is, how do you keep your business going? What do you need? Who do you need the resources when you've been hit by an event and and with the least impact to your customers and your delivery of services, yeah, and it's simple, they all get it. They all understand it. So if anyone doesn't like that, please feel free send me an email. I can hit the delete key just as fast as you can write it. So you know, but that's what a lot of people understand, and that's really what business continuity management is, right from the very beginning when you identify something, all the way to why we made it through, we're done. The incident's over.   Michael Hingson ** 09:16 Both worked with at the Business Continuity international hybrid convention in October was Sergio Garcia, who kind of coordinated things. And I think it was he who I asked, what, what is it that you do? What's the purpose of all of the people getting together and having this conference? And he said, I think it was he who said it not you, that the the best way to think about it is that the people who go to this conference are the what if people, they're the ones who have to think about having an event, and what happens if there's an event, and how do you deal with it? But so the what if people, they're the people that nobody ever pays any attention to until such time as there is something that. Happens, and then they're in high demand.   Alex Fullick ** 10:03 Yeah, that that's especially that being ignored part until something happened. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, the nice thing, one of the things I love about this position, and I've been doing it like I said, for 28 years, written books, podcasts, you've been on my show, YouTube channel, etc, etc, is that I do get to learn and from so many people and show the value of what we do, and I'm in a position to reach out and talk to so many different people, like I mentioned earlier. You know, CEOs. I can sit in front of the CEO and tell them you're not ready. If something happens, you're not ready because you haven't attended any training, or your team hasn't attended training, or nobody's contributing to crisis management or the business continuity or whatever you want to talk about. And I find that empowering, and it's amazing to sit there and not tell a CEO to their face, you know you're screwed. Not. You know, you don't say those kinds of things. No, but being able to sit there and just have a moment with them to to say that, however you term it, you might have a good relationship with them where you can't say that for all I know, but it being able to sit in front of a CEO or a vice president and say, hey, you know, this is where things are. This is where I need your help. You know, I don't think a lot of people get that luxury to be able to do it. And I'm lucky enough that I've worked with a lot of clients where I can't. This is where I need your help. You know. What's your expectation? Let's make it happen, you know, and having that behind you is it's kind of empowering,   Michael Hingson ** 11:47 yeah, well, one of the things that I have start talking a little bit about with people when talk about emergency preparedness is, if you're really going to talk about being prepared for an emergency. One of the things that you need to do is recognize that probably the biggest part of emergency preparedness, or business continuity, however you want to term, it, isn't physical it's the mental preparation that you need to make that people generally don't make. You know, I've been watching for the last now, five or six weeks, all the flyers and things down here in California, which have been so horrible, and people talk about being prepared physically. You should have a go bag so that you can grab it and go. You should do this. You should do that. But the problem is nobody ever talks about or or helps people really deal with the mental preparation for something unexpected. And I'm going to, I'm going to put it that way, as opposed to saying something negative, because it could be a positive thing. But the bottom line is, we don't really learn to prepare ourselves for unexpected things that happen in our lives and how to react to them, and so especially when it's a negative thing, the fear just completely overwhelms us.   Alex Fullick ** 13:09 Yeah, I agree with you. You know, fear can be what's that to fight, flight or freeze? Yeah, and a lot of people don't know how to respond when an event happens. And I think I'm going to take a step back, and I think that goes back to when we're young as well, because we have our parents, our grandparents, our teachers, our principals. You know, you can go achieve your goals, like everything is positive. You can go do that. Go do that. They don't teach you that, yeah, to achieve those goals, you're going to hit some roadblocks, and you need to understand how to deal with that when things occur. And use your example with the fires in California. If you don't know how to prepare for some of those small things, then when a big fire like that occurs, you're even less prepared. I have no idea how to deal with that, and it is. It's a really change in mindset and understanding that not everything is rosy. And unfortunately, a lot of people get told, or they get told, Oh, don't worry about it. It'll never happen. So great when it does happen. Well, then was that advice?   Michael Hingson ** 14:25 Yeah, I remember after September 11, a couple of months after, I called somebody who had expressed an interest in purchasing some tape backup products for from us at Quantum. And I hadn't heard from them, and so I reached out, and I said, So what's going on? How would you guys like to proceed? And this was an IT guy, and he said, Oh, well, the president of the company said September 11 happened, and so since they did, we're not going to have to worry about that anymore. So we're not going to go forward. Or worth doing anything to back up our data, and I'm sitting there going, you missed the whole point of what backup is all about. I didn't dare say that to him, but it isn't just about an emergency, but it's also about, what if you accidentally delete a file? Do you have a way to go back and get it? I mean, there's so many other parts to it, but this guy's boss just basically said, Well, it happened, so it's not going to happen now we don't have to worry about it. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 15:27 like you hear on the news. Well, it feels like daily, oh, once in 100 year storm, once in 100 year event, once in 100 year this. Well, take a look at the news. It's happening weekly, daily, yeah, yeah. One in 100   Michael Hingson ** 15:44 years thing, yeah. Nowadays, absolutely, there's so many things that are happening. California is going through a couple of major atmospheric rivers right now, as they're now calling it. And so Southern California is getting a lot of rain because of of one of the rivers, and of course, it has all the burn areas from the fires. So I don't know what we'll see in the way of mudslides, but the rain is picking up. Even here, where I live, we're going to get an inch or more of rain, and usually we don't get the rain that a lot of other places get. The clouds have to go over a lot of mountains to get to us, and they lose their moisture before they do that. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 16:23 yeah. We just had a whole pile of snow here. So we had a snowstorm yesterday. So we've got about 20 centimeters of snow out there that hasn't been plowed yet. So bit of   Michael Hingson ** 16:36 a mess. There you go. Well, you know, go out and play on the snow. Well,   Alex Fullick ** 16:41 the dog loves it, that's for sure. Like troubling it, but, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 16:46 I don't think my cat would like it, but the animal would like it. He'd go out and play in it. If it were here, we don't get much snow here, but Yeah, he'd play it. But, but it is. It is so interesting to really talk about this whole issue of of business continuity, emergency preparedness, whatever you want to consider it, because it's it's more than anything. It's a mindset, and it is something that people should learn to do in their lives in general, because it would help people be a lot more prepared. If people really created a mindset in themselves about dealing with unexpected things, probably they'd be a little bit more prepared physically for an emergency, but they would certainly be in a lot better shape to deal with something as like the fires are approaching, but they don't, but we don't do that. We don't teach that.   Alex Fullick ** 17:43 No, we it's interesting too, that a lot of those people, they'll work on projects in their organization, you know, and they will look at things well, what can go wrong, you know, and try to mitigate it and fix, you know, whatever issues are in the way or remove roadblocks. They're actually doing that as part of their project. But when it comes to themselves, and they have to think about fires or something like that, is now that won't happen, you know. And wait a minute, how come you've got the right mindset when it comes to your projects at work, but you don't have that same mindset when it comes to your own well being, or your families, or whatever the case may be. How come it's different? You go from one side to the other and it I've noticed that a few times with people and like, I don't get it. Why? Why are you so you have the right mindset under one circumstance and the other circumstance, you completely ignore it and don't have the mindset,   Michael Hingson ** 18:45 yeah, which, which makes you wonder, how much of a mindset Do you really have when it comes to work in all aspects of it? And so one of the things that I remember after September 11, people constantly asked me is, who helped you down the stairs, or was there somebody who was responsible for coming to get you, to take you downstairs and and the reality is, as I said, I was the leader. I was helping other people go downstairs. But by the same token, I'm of the opinion that in buildings like the World Trade Center towers, there is people talk about the buddy system. So if somebody is is in the building, you should have a buddy. And it doesn't even need to be necessarily, in the same office, but there should be an arrangement so that there is somebody looking out for each each other person. So everybody should have a buddy. I'm of the opinion it isn't a buddy. There should be two buddies, and at least one of them has to be outside of the office, so that you have three people who have to communicate and develop those lines of communications and work through it. And by that way, you you have a. Better chance of making sure that more people get whatever communications are necessary.   Alex Fullick ** 20:06 Yeah, you create your like a support network, absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 20:10 and I think at least a triumvirate makes a lot more sense than just a buddy. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 20:14 you you might be freaked out, you know, nervous shaking, but with a couple of people standing there, you know, talking to you, you're going to come right back hopefully. You know, with that, the calmer, you know, stop shaking when a couple of people are there. Yeah, you a lot of times when you have the same one person doing it, usually, oh, you're just saying that because you have to. But when you two people doing it, it's like, okay, thank thanks team. You know, like you're really helping. You know, this is much better.   Michael Hingson ** 20:48 Yeah, I think it makes a lot more sense, and especially if one of them isn't necessarily a person who's normally in your work pattern that brings somebody in from someone with the outside who approaches things differently because they don't necessarily know you or as well or in the same way as your buddy who's maybe next door to you in the office, right across the hall or next door, or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I think it makes sense well, the conference that we were at a lot to well, to a large degree, and at least for my presentation, was all about resilience. What is resilience to you? How's that for a general question that   Alex Fullick ** 21:31 has become such a buzzword, I know it   Michael Hingson ** 21:35 really is, and it's unfortunate, because when, when we start hearing, you know, resilience, or I hear all the time amazing and so many times we get all these buzzwords, and they they really lose a lot of their value when that happens. But still, that's a fair question. I   Alex Fullick ** 21:53 do think the word resilience is overused, and it's losing its meaning. You know, dictionary meaning, because it's just used for everything these days. Yeah, you know, my neighbor left her keys. Sorry. Her daughter took her house keys this morning by accident. She couldn't get into her house when she got him back, and she had a comment where she said, you know, oh, well, I'm resilient, but really, you just went and got some Keith, how was that so? So I'm, I'm starting to get to the point now, when people ask me, you know, what's resilience to you? What's it mean to you? I just, I start to say, Now, does it matter? Yeah, my definition is fine for me, if you have a definition of it for yourself that you understand you you know what it means, or your organization has a definition, we'll take it and run. Yeah, you know what it means. You're all behind that. Meaning. We don't need a vendor or some other guiding industry organization to say this is, this must be your definition of resilience. It's like, well, no, you're just wordsmithing and making it sound fancy. You know, do it means what it means to you? You know, how, how do you define it? If that's how you define it, that's what it means, and that's all that matters. My definition doesn't matter. Nobody else's definition matters, you know, because, and it's become that way because the term used, you know, for everything these days. Yeah, I   Michael Hingson ** 23:30 think that there's a lot of value in if a person is, if we use the dictionary definition, resilient, they they Well, again, from my definition, it gets back to the mindset you establish. You establish a mindset where you can be flexible, where you can adapt, and where you can sometimes think outside the box that you would normally think out of, but you don't panic to do that. You've learned how to address different things and be able to focus, to develop what you need to do to accomplish, whatever you need to accomplish at any unexpected time.   Alex Fullick ** 24:06 Yeah, and you're calm, level headed, you know, you've got that right mindset. You don't freak out over the small things, you know, you see the bigger picture. You understand it. You know, I'm here. That's where I need to go, and that's where you focus and, you know, sweat all those little things, you know. And I think, I think it's, it's kind of reminds me that the definitions that are being thrown out there now reminds me of some of those mission and vision statements that leadership comes up with in their organizations, with all this, oh, that, you know, you read the sentence and it makes no sense whatsoever, yeah, you know, like, what?   Michael Hingson ** 24:45 What's so, what's the wackiest definition of resilience that you can think of that you've heard?   Alex Fullick ** 24:51 Um, I don't know if there's a wacky one or an unusual one. Um, oh, geez. I. I know I've heard definitions of bounce forward, bounce back, you know, agility, adaptability. Well, your   Michael Hingson ** 25:07 car keys, lady this morning, your house key, your house key, lady this morning, the same thing, yeah, yeah. I don't resilient just because she got her keys back. Yeah, really, yeah. Well,   Alex Fullick ** 25:17 that's kind of a wacky example. Yeah, of one, but I don't think there's, I've heard any weird definitions yet. I'm sure that's probably some out there coming. Yeah, we'll get to the point where, how the heck did are you defining resilience with that? Yeah? And if you're looking at from that way, then yeah, my neighbor with the keys that would fit in right there. That's not resilient. You just went and picked up some keys.   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 Yeah. Where's the resilience? How did you adapt? You the resilience might be if you didn't, the resilience might be if you didn't panic, although I'm sure that didn't happen. But that would, that would lean toward the concept of resilience. If you didn't panic and just went, Well, I I'll go get them. Everything will be fine, but that's not what people do,   Alex Fullick ** 26:08 yeah? Well, that that is what she did, actually. She just as I was shoveling snow this morning, she goes, Oh, well, I'll just go get her, get them, okay, yeah. Does that really mean resilience, or Does that just mean you went to pick up the keys that your daughter accidentally took   Michael Hingson ** 26:24 and and you stayed reasonably level headed about it,   Alex Fullick ** 26:28 you know, you know. So, you know, I don't know, yeah, if, if I would count that as a definition of resilience, but, or even I agree resilience, it's more of okay, yeah, yeah. If, if it's something like that, then that must mean I'm resilient when I forget to pull the laundry out after the buzzer. Oh yeah, I gotta pull the laundry out. Did that make me resilient? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:52 absolutely, once you pulled it out, you weren't resilient, not until then,   Alex Fullick ** 26:57 you know. So, so I guess it's you know, how people but then it comes down to how people want to define it too. Yeah, if they're happy with that definition, well, if it makes you happy, I'm not going to tell you to change   Michael Hingson ** 27:11 it. Yeah, has but, but I think ultimately there are some some basic standards that get back to what we talked about earlier, which is establishing a mindset and being able to deal with things that come out of the ordinary well, and you're in an industry that, by and large, is probably viewed as pretty negative, you're always anticipating the emergencies and and all the unexpected horrible things that can happen, the what if people again, but that's that's got to be, from a mindset standpoint, a little bit tough to deal with it. You're always dealing with this negative industry. How do you do that? You're resilient, I know. But anyway, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 27:56 really, I just look at it from a risk perspective. Oh, could that happen to us? You know, no, it wouldn't, you know, we're we're in the middle of a Canadian Shield, or at least where I am. We're in the middle of Canadian Shield. There's not going to be two plates rubbing against each other and having an earthquake. So I just look at it from risk where we are, snowstorms, yep, that could hit us and has. What do we do? Okay, well, we close our facility, we have everyone work from home, you know, etc, etc. So I don't look at it from the perspective of doom and gloom. I look at it more of opportunity to make us better at what we do and how we prepare and how we respond and how we overcome, you know, situations that happen out there, and I don't look at it from the oh, here comes, you know, the disaster guy you know, always pointing out everything that's wrong. You know, I'd rather point out opportunities that we have to become as a team, organization or a person stronger. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:01 I guess it's not necessarily a disaster. And as I said earlier, it could very well be that some unexpected thing will happen that could be a very positive thing. But again, if we don't have the mindset to deal with that, then we don't and the reality is, the more that we work to develop a mindset to deal with unexpected things, the more quickly we can make a correct analysis of whatever is going on and move forward from it, as opposed to letting fear again overwhelm us, we can if we practice creating This mindset that says we really understand how to deal with unexpected situations, then we are in a position to be able to the more we practice it, deal with it, and move forward in a positive way. So it doesn't need to be a disaster. September 11 was a disaster by any standard, but as I tell people. People. While I am still convinced that no matter what anyone might think, we couldn't figure out that September 11 was going to happen, I'm not convinced that even if all the agencies communicated, they would have gotten it because and I talk about trust and teamwork a lot, as I point out, a team of 19 people kept their mouth shut, or a few more who were helping in the planning of it, and they pulled off something that basically brought the world to its knees. So I'm not convinced that we could have stopped September 11 from happening. At least I haven't heard something that convinces me of that yet. But what each of us has the ability to do is to determine how we deal with September 11. So we couldn't prevent it, but we can certainly all deal with or address the issue of, how do we deal with it going forward? Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 30:52 I agree. I I was actually in a conversation with my niece a couple of months ago. We were up at the cottage, and she was talking about school, and, you know, some of the people that she goes to school with, and I said, Well, you're never going to be able to change other people. You know, what they think or what they do. I said, what you can control is your response. You know, if, if they're always picking on you, the reason they're picking on you is because they know they can get a rise out of you. They know they it. Whatever they're saying or doing is getting to you, so they're going to keep doing it because it's empowering for them. But you can take away that empowerment if you make the right choices on how you respond, if you just shrug and walk away. I'm simplifying it, of course, yeah, if you just shrug and walk away. Well, after a while, they're going to realize nothing I'm saying is getting through, and they'll move away from you. They'll they won't bug you anymore, because they can't get a rise out. They can't get a rise out of you. So the only thing you can control is how you respond, you know. And as you keep saying, it's the mindset. Change your mindset from response to, you know, I'm prepared for what this person's going to say, and I'm not going to let it bother me. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 Well, bullying is really all about that. Yeah, people can't bully if you don't let yourself be bullied. Yep, and whether it's social media and so many other things, you can't be bullied if you don't allow it and if you ignore it or move on or get help to deal with the issue if it gets serious enough, but you don't need to approach it from a shame or fear standpoint, or you or you shouldn't anyway, but that's unfortunately, again, all too often. What happens when we see a lot of teenage suicides and so on, because people are letting the bullies get a rise out of them, and the bullies win.   Alex Fullick ** 32:51 Yep, yep. And as I told her, I said, you just mentioned it too. If it gets out of hand or becomes physical, I said, then you have to take action. I don't mean turning around and swinging back. I said, No, step up. Go get someone who is has authority and can do something about it. Yeah, don't, don't run away. Just deal with it differently, you know. And don't, don't start the fight, because then you're just confirming that I'm the bully. I can do this again. Yeah, you're, you're giving them license to do what they want. Yeah, but stand up to them, or tell, depending on the situation, tell someone higher up in authority that can do something and make make a change, but you have to be calm when you do it.   Michael Hingson ** 33:39 I remember when I was at UC Irvine, when I was going to college, my had my first guide dog, Squire. He was a golden retriever, 64 pounds, the most gentle, wonderful dog you could ever imagine. And unfortunately, other students on campus would bring their dogs. It was a very big campus, pretty, in a sense, rural, and there were only about 2700 students. And a bunch of students would bring their dogs to school, and they would just turn the dogs loose, and they go off to class, and then they find their dogs at the end of the day. Unfortunately, some of the dogs developed into a pack, and one day, they decided they were going to come after my guide dog. I think I've told this story a couple times on on this podcast, but what happened was we were walking down a sidewalk, and the dogs were coming up from behind, and they were growling and so on. And squire, my guide dog, jerked away from me. I still held his leash, but he jerked out of his harness, out of my hand, and literally jumped up in the air, turned around and came down on all fours, hunkered down and growled at these dogs all in this the well, about a two second time frame, totally shocked the dogs. They just slunked away. Somebody was describing it to me later, and you know, the dog was very deliberate about what he did. Of course, after they left, he comes over and He's wagging his tail. Did I do good or what? But, but he was very deliberate, and it's a lesson to to deal with things. And he never attacked any of the dogs, but he wasn't going to let anything happen to him or me, and that's what loyalty is really all about. But if something had happened and that hadn't worked out the way expected, then I would have had to have gone off and and I, in fact, I did talk to school officials about the fact that these dogs were doing that. And I don't even remember whether anybody did anything, but I know I was also a day or so later going into one of the the buildings. Before he got inside, there was a guy I knew who was in a wheelchair, and another dog did come up and started to try to attack squire, this guy with in the wheelchair, pulled one of the arms off his chair and just lambasted the dog right across the head, made him back up. Yeah, you know. But it was that people shouldn't be doing what they allowed their dog. You know, shouldn't be doing that, but. But the bottom line is, it's still a lesson that you don't let yourself be bullied. Yeah, yep, and there's no need to do that, but it is a it's a pretty fascinating thing to to see and to deal with, but it's all about preparation. And again, if we teach ourselves to think strategically and develop that skill, it becomes just second nature to do it, which is, unfortunately, what we don't learn.   Alex Fullick ** 36:48 Yeah, I didn't know that as a kid, because when I was a little kid and first came to Canada, especially, I was bullied because, well, I had a funny voice.   Michael Hingson ** 36:57 You did? You don't have that anymore, by the way, no,   Alex Fullick ** 37:01 if I, if I'm with my mom or relatives, especially when I'm back in England, words will start coming back. Yeah, there are words that I do say differently, garage or garage, yeah. You know, I hate garage, but garage, yeah, I still say some words like that,   Michael Hingson ** 37:18 or process, as opposed to process.   Alex Fullick ** 37:21 Yeah, so, you know, there's something like that, but as a kid, I was bullied and I there was, was no talk of mindset or how to deal with it. It's either put up with it or, you know, you really couldn't turn to anybody back then, because nobody really knew themselves how to deal with it. Yeah, bullies had always been around. They were always in the playground. So the the mechanisms to deal with it weren't there either. It wasn't till much later that I'm able to to deal with that if someone said some of the things now, right away, I can turn around because I've trained myself to have a different mindset and say that, no, that's unacceptable. You can't talk to that person, or you can't talk to me that way. Yeah, you know, if you say it again, I will, you know, call the police or whatever. Never anything where I'm going to punch you in the chin, you know, or something like that. Never. That doesn't solve anything. No, stand up saying, you know, no, I'm not going to accept that. You know, which is easier now, and maybe that just comes with age or something, I don't know, but back then, no, it was, you know, that that kind of mechanism to deal with it, or finding that inner strength and mindset to do that wasn't there,   Michael Hingson ** 38:43 right? But when you started to work on developing that mindset, the more you worked on it, the easier it became to make it happen. Yep, agreed. And so now it's a way of life, and it's something that I think we all really could learn and should learn. And my book live like a guide dog is really all about that developing that mindset to control fear. And I just think it's so important that we really deal with it. And you know, in this country right now, we've got a government administration that's all about chaos and fear, and unfortunately, not nearly enough people have learned how to deal with that, which is too bad, yep, although,   Alex Fullick ** 39:30 go ahead, I was going to say it's a shame that, you know, some a lot of people haven't learned how to deal with that. Part of it, again, is we don't teach that as well. So sometimes the only thing some people know is fear and bullying, because that's all they've experienced, yeah, either as the bully or being bullied. So they they don't see anything different. So when it happens on a scale, what we see right now it. It's, well, that's normal, yeah, it's not normal, actually. You know, it's not something we should be doing. You know, you should be able to stand up to your bully, or stand up when you see something wrong, you know, and help because it's human nature to want to help other people. You know, there's been so many accidents people falling, or you'll need their snow removed, where I am, and people jump in and help, yeah? You know, without sometimes, a lot of times, they don't even ask. It's like, oh, let me give you a hand,   Michael Hingson ** 40:33 yeah. And we had that when we lived in New Jersey, like snow removal. We had a Boy Scout who started a business, and every year he'd come around and clear everybody's snow. He cleared our snow. He said, I am absolutely happy to do it. We we wanted to pay him for it, but he was, he was great, and we always had a nice, clean driveway. But you know, the other side of this whole issue with the mindset is if we take it in a more positive direction, look at people like Sully Sullenberger, the pilot and the airplane on the Hudson, how he stayed focused. He had developed the mindset and stayed focused so that he could deal with that airplane. That doesn't mean that he wasn't afraid and had concerns, but he was able to do something that was was definitely pretty fantastic, because he kept his cool, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 41:23 I think he knew, and others in other situations know that if you're freaking out yourself, you're not going to fix the issue, you're going to make it worse. We see that in Hollywood tends to do that a lot. In their movies, there's always a character who's flipping out, you know, panicking, going crazy and making everything worse. Well, that does happen, you know, if you act that way, you're not going to resolve your situation, whatever you find yourself in, you know. And I tell people that in business continuity when we're having meetings, well, we'll figure it out when it happens. No, you don't know how you'll behave. You don't know how you'll respond when, oh, I don't know an active shooter or something. You have no idea when you hear that someone you know just got shot down in the lobby. Are you going to tell me you're going to be calm? You sorry? You know you're going to be calm and just okay, yeah, we can deal with it. No, you're going to get a wave of panic, yeah, or other emotions coming over you, you know. And you have to have that mindset. You can still be panicked and upset and freaked out, or however you want to describe that, but you know, I have to stay in control. I can't let that fear take over, or I'm going to get myself in that situation as well. Yeah, I have to be able to manage it. Okay, what do I have to do? I gotta go hide. You know, I'm not saying you're not sweating, you know, with nervousness like that, but you understand, gotta think beyond this if I want to get out of this situation. You know, I'm going to take these people that are sitting with me, we're going to go lock ourselves in the storage closet, or, you know, whatever, right? But have that wherewithal to be able to understand that and, you know, be be safe, you know, but freaking out, you're only contributing to the situation, and then you end up freaking out other people and getting them panicked. Course, you do. They're not, you know, they don't have the right mindset to deal with issues. And then you've got everyone going in every direction, nobody's helping each other. And then you're creating, you know, bigger issues, and   Michael Hingson ** 43:37 you lose more lives, and you create more catastrophes all the way around. I remember when I was going down the stairs at the World Trade Center, I kept telling Roselle what a good job she was doing, good girl. And I did that for a couple of reasons. The main reason was I wanted her to know that I was okay and I'm not going to be influenced by fear. But I wanted her to feel comfortable what what happened, though, as a result of that, and was a lesson for me. I got contacted several years later one time, specifically when I went to Kansas City to do a speech, and a woman said she wanted to come and hear me because she had come into the stairwell just after, or as we were passing her floor, which was, I think, the 54th floor. Then she said, I heard you just praising your dog and being very calm. And she said, I and other people just decided we're going to follow you down the stairs. And it was, it was a great lesson to understand that staying focused, no matter what the fear level was, really otherwise, staying focused and encouraging was a much more positive thing to do, and today, people still don't imagine how, in a sense, comet was going down the stairs, which doesn't mean that people weren't afraid. But several of us worked to really keep panic out of the stairwell as we were going down. My friend David did he panicked, but then he. He walked a floor below me and started shouting up to me whatever he saw on the stairwell, and that was really for his benefit. He said to have something to do other than thinking about what was going on, because he was getting pretty scared about it. But what David did by shouting up to me was he acted as a focal point for anyone on the stairs who could hear him, and they would hear him say things like, Hey, Mike, I'm at the 43rd floor. All's good here. Everyone who could hear him had someone on the stairs who was focused, sounded calm, and that they could listen to to know that everybody was okay, which was so cool, and   Alex Fullick ** 45:38 that that probably helped them realize, okay, we're in the right direction. We're going the right way. Someone is, you know, sending a positive comments. So if, if we've got, you know, three, if he's three floors below us, we know at least on the next three floors, everything is okay.   Michael Hingson ** 45:56 Well, even if they didn't know where he wasn't right, but even if he they didn't know where he was in relation to them, the fact is, they heard somebody on the stairs saying, I'm okay, yeah, whether he felt it, he did sound it all the way down the stairs. Yeah, and I know that he was panicking, because he did it originally, but he got over that. I snapped at him. I just said, Stop it, David, if Rosell and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And then he did. He focused, and I'm sure that he had to have helped 1000s of people going down the stairs, and helped with his words, keeping them calm.   Alex Fullick ** 46:32 Yeah, yeah. It makes a difference, you know. Like I said earlier, you doesn't mean you're still not afraid. Doesn't mean that, you know, you're not aware of the negative situation around you. It's and you can't change it, but you can change, like I said earlier, you can change how you respond to it. You can be in control that way, right? And that's eventually what, what he did, and you you were, you know, you were controlled going downstairs, you know, with with your guide dog, and with all these people following you, and because of the way you were, like, then they were following you, yeah, and they remained calm. It's like there's someone calling up from below who's safe. I can hear that. I'm listening to Michael. He'll tell his dog how well behaved they are. And he's going down calmly. Okay, you know, I can do this. And they start calming down,   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 yeah, what's the riskiest thing you've ever done? Oh, word. Must have taken a risk somewhere in the world, other than public speaking. Oh, yeah, public speaking.   Alex Fullick ** 47:40 I still get nervous the first minute. I'm still nervous when I go up, but you get used to it after a while. But that first minute, yeah, I'm nervous. Oh, that there's, I have a fear of heights and the so the the two, two things that still surprised me that I did is I climbed the Sydney bridge, Harbor Bridge, and, oh, there's another bridge. Where is it? Is it a Brisbane? They're both in Australia. Anyway. Climb them both and have a fear of heights. But I thought, no, I gotta, I gotta do this. You know, I can't be afraid of this my entire life. And I kept seeing all these people go up there in groups, you know, on tours. And so I said, Okay, I'm going to do this. And I was shaking nervous like crazy, and went, What if I fall off, you know, and there's so many different measures in place for to keep you safe. But that that was risky, you know, for me, it felt risky. I was exhilarated when I did it. Though, would you do it again? Oh, yeah, in a heartbeat. Now, there you go. I'm still afraid of heights, but I would do that again because I just felt fantastic. The other I guess going out and being self employed years ago was another risky thing. I had no idea, you know about incorporating myself, and, you know, submitting taxes, you know, business taxes, and, you know, government documents and all this and that, and invoicing and things like that. I had no idea about that. So that was kind of risky, because I had no idea how long I'd be doing it. Well, I started in what 2007, 2007, I think so, 18 years, yeah, so now it's like, I can't imagine myself not doing it, you know, so I'm but I'm always willing to try something new these days. You know, even starting the podcast seven and a half years ago was risky, right? I had no idea. Nobody was talking about my industry or resilience or business continuity or anything back then, I was the first one doing it, and I'm the longest one doing it. Um, I've outlived a lot of people who thought they could do it. I'm still going. So that started out risky, but now I. Imagine not doing it, yeah, you know. And you know, it's, you know, I guess it's, it's just fun to keep trying new things. You know, I keep growing and, you know, I've got other plans in the works. I can't give anything away, but, you know, I've got other plans to try. And they'll, they'll be risky as well. But it's like,   Michael Hingson ** 50:21 no, let's go for it. Have you ever done skydiving or anything like that? No, I haven't done that. I haven't either. I know some blind people who have, but I just, I've never done that. I wouldn't   Alex Fullick ** 50:32 mind it. It's that might be one of those lines where should I? I'm not sure about this one, you know, but it is something that I I think I wouldn't do it on my own. I think I would have to be one of those people who's connected with someone else, with someone   Michael Hingson ** 50:51 else, and that's usually the way blind people do it, needless to say, but, and that's fine, I just have never done it. I haven't ever had a need to do it, but I know I can sit here and say, I'm not afraid to do it. That is, I could do it if it came along, if there was a need to do it, but I don't. I don't have a great need to make that happen. But you know, I've had enough challenges in my life. As I tell people, I think I learned how to deal with surprises pretty early, because I've been to a lot of cities and like, like Boston used to have a rep of being a very accident prone city. Just the way people drive, I could start to cross the street and suddenly I hear a car coming around the corner, and I have to move one way or the other and draw a conclusion very quickly. Do I back up or do I go forward? Because the car is not doing what it's supposed to do, which is to stop, and I have to deal with that. So I think those kinds of experiences have helped me learn to deal with surprise a little bit too.   Alex Fullick ** 51:52 Yeah, well, with the skydiving, I don't think I'd go out of my way to do it, but exactly came along, I think I would, you know, just for the thrill of saying, I did it,   Michael Hingson ** 52:03 I did it, yeah, I went ice skating once, and I sprained my ankle as we were coming off the ice after being on the ice for three hours. And I haven't gone ice skating again since. I'm not really afraid to, but I don't need to do it. I've done it. I understand what it feels like. Yeah, yeah. So it's okay. Have you had any really significant aha moments in your life, things that just suddenly, something happened and went, Ah, that's that's what that is, or whatever.   Alex Fullick ** 52:30 Well, it does happen at work a lot, dealing with clients and people provide different perspectives, and you just, Oh, that's interesting, though, that happens all the time. Aha moments. Sometimes they're not always good. Aha moments, yeah, like the one I always remember that the most is when I wrote my first book, heads in the sand. I was so proud of it, and, you know, excited and sent off all these letters and marketing material to all the chambers of commerce across Canada, you know, thinking that, you know, everyone's going to want me to speak or present or buy my book. Well, ah, it doesn't happen that way. You know, I got no responses. But that didn't stop me from writing seven more books and working on nine. Now, there you go, but it was that was kind of a negative aha moment so, but I just learned, okay, that's not the way I should be doing that.   Michael Hingson ** 53:34 Put you in your place, but that's fair. I kind   Alex Fullick ** 53:37 of, I laugh at it now, a joke, but you know, aha, things you know, I You never know when they're going to happen.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 No, that's why they're Aha, yeah.   Alex Fullick ** 53:51 And one of one, I guess another one would have been when I worked out first went out on my own. I had a manager who kept pushing me like, go, go work for yourself. You know this better than a lot of other people. Go, go do this. And I was too nervous. And then I got a phone call from a recruiting agency who was offering me a role to do where I wanted to take this company, but that I was working for full time for that weren't ready to go. They weren't ready yet. And it was kind of an aha moment of, do I stay where I am and maybe not be happy? Or have I just been given an opportunity to go forward? So when I looked at it that way, it did become an aha moment, like, Ah, here's my path forward. Yeah, so, you know. And that was way back in 2007 or or so somewhere around there, you know. So the aha moments can be good. They can be bad, and, you know, but as long as you learn from them, that's exactly   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 right. The that's the neat thing about. Aha moments. You don't expect them, but they're some of the best learning opportunities that you'll ever get.   Alex Fullick ** 55:06 Yeah, yeah, I agree completely, because you never know that. That's the nice thing, and I think that's also part of what I do when I'm working with so many different people of different levels is they all have different experiences. They all have different backgrounds. You they can all be CEOs, but they all come from a different direction and different backgrounds. So they're all going to be offering something new that's going to make you sit there and go, Oh, yeah. And thought of that before,   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 yeah. So that's, that's so cool, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 55:42 but you have to, you know, be able to listen and pick up on those kind of things.   Michael Hingson ** 55:46 But you've been very successful. What are some of the secrets of success that that that you've discovered, or that you put to use?   Alex Fullick ** 55:55 For me, I'll put it bluntly, shut up and listen.   Michael Hingson ** 55:59 There you are. Yeah. Well, that is so true. That's true. Yeah.   Alex Fullick ** 56:03 I think I've learned more by just using my two ears rather than my one mouth, instead of telling people everything they you should be doing. And you know, this is what I think you should do. And like talking at people, it's so much better just talk with people, and then they'll, even if you're trying to, you know, really, really, really, get them to see your side, they will come onto your side easier and probably better if you let them realize it themselves. So you just listen, and you ask the odd probing question, and eventually comes around, goes, Oh, yeah, I get it. What you mean now by doing this and going, Yeah, that's where I was going. I guess I just wasn't saying it right, you know. And have being humble enough to, you know, even though I, I know I did say it right, maybe I just wasn't saying it right to that person, to that person, yeah, right way. So listening to them, and, you know, I think, is one of the big keys to success for me, it has, you know, and I've learned twice as much that way. And maybe that's why I enjoy answering people on the podcast, is because I ask a couple of questions and then just let people talk,   Michael Hingson ** 57:18 which is what makes it fun. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 57:21 yeah. It's sometimes it's fun to just sit there, not say anything, just let someone else do all the talking.   Michael Hingson ** 57:29 What you know your industry is, I would assume, evolved and changed over the years. What are some of the major changes, some of the ways that the industry has evolved. You've been in it a long time, and certainly, business continuity, disaster recovery, whatever you want to call it, has, in some sense, has become a little bit more of a visible thing, although I think people, as both said earlier, ignore it a lot. But how's the industry changed over time?   Alex Fullick ** 57:54 Well, when I started, it was before y 2k, yes, 96 and back then, when I first started, everything was it focused. If your mainframe went down, your computer broke. That's the direction everyone came from. And then it was you added business continuity on top of that. Okay, now, what do we do with our business operations. You know, other things we can do manually while they fix the computer or rebuild the mainframe. And then it went to, okay, well, let's bring in, you know, our help desk. You know, who people call I've got a problem with a computer, and here's our priority and severity. Okay, so we'll get, we'll respond to your query in 12 hours, because it's only one person, but if there's 10 people who have the issue, now it becomes six hours and bringing in those different aspects. So we went from it disaster recovery to business continuity to then bringing in other disciplines and linking to them, like emergency management, crisis management, business continuity, incident management, cyber, information security. Now we've got business continuity management, you know, bringing all these different teams together and now, or at least on some level, not really integrating very well with each other, but just having an awareness of each other, then we've moved to operational resilience, and again, that buzzword where all these teams do have to work together and understand what each other is delivering and the value of each of them. And so it just keeps growing in that direction where it started off with rebuild a mainframe to getting everybody working together to keep your operations going, to keep your partners happy, to keep your customers happy. You know, ensuring life safety is priority number one. When, when I started, life safety was, wasn't really thrown into the business continuity realm that much. It was always the focus on the business. So the these. The sky, the size and scope has gotten a lot bigger and more encompassing of other areas. And I wouldn't necessarily all call that business continuity, you know it, but it is. I see business continuity as a the hub and a wheel, rather than a spoke, to bring all the different teams together to help them understand, you know, hey, here's, here's how you've Incident Management, you know, help desk, service desk, here's how you help the Disaster Recovery Team. Here's how you can help the cyber team. Cyber, here's how you can actually help this team, you know, and being able to understand. And that's where the biggest change of things is going is now, more and more people are understanding how they really need to work together, rather than a silo, which you know, a lot of organizations still do, but it's those walls are starting to come down, because they can understand no One can do it alone. You have to work together with your internal departments, leadership, data analysts, who have to be able to figure out how to rebuild data, or your third parties. We need to talk with them. We have to have a relationship with them our supply chain, and understand where they're going, what they have in place, if we or they experience something. So it's definitely grown in size and scope   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 well, and we're seeing enough challenges that I think some people are catching on to the fact that they have to learn to work together, and they have to think in a broader base than they have in the past, and that's probably a good thing. Yeah, well, if, if you had the opportunity, what would you tell the younger Alex?   Alex Fullick ** 1:01:50 Run, run for the hills. Yeah, really, no, seriously, I kind of mentioned a couple of them already. Don't sweat the small things. You know, sometimes, yeah, and I think that comes down to our mindset thing as well. You know, understand your priorities and what's important. If it's not a priority or important, don't sweat it. Don't be afraid to take risks if you if you do your planning, whether it be jumping out of a plane or whatever, you know the first thing you want to do is what safety measures are in place to ensure that my jump will be successful. You know, those kind of things. Once you understand that, then you can make knowledgeable decisions. Don't be afraid to take those risks. And it's one of the big things. It's it's okay to fail, like I said about the book thing where you all those that marketing material I sent out, it's okay to fail. Learn from it. Move on. I can laugh at those kind of things now. You know, for years, I couldn't I was really like, oh my god, what I do wrong? It's like, No, I didn't do anything wrong. It just wasn't the right time. Didn't do it the right way. Okay, fine, move on. You know, you know, don't be afraid to fail. If, if you, if you fail and get up, well then is it really a failure? You learned, you got back up and you kept going. And that's the part of resilience too, right? Yeah, if you trip and fall, you get up and keep going. But if you trip and fall and stay down, well then maybe you are   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:30 failing. That's the failure. I mean, the reality is that it isn't failure if you learn from it and move on. It was something that set you back, but that's okay, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 1:03:41 my my favorite band, Marillion, has a line in one of their songs rich. Failure isn't about falling down. Failure is staying down. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:50 I would agree with that. Completely agree   Alex Fullick ** 1:03:53 with it. He'll stand by it. W

Abigail Carter's husband Arron Dack was attending a trade show at the Windows of the World restaurant at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. He was the senior vice president and the director of global sales and alliances for Encompys. He never came come. She wrote The Alchemy of Loss: A Young Widow's Transformation, initially as a form of catharsis. It has aided in the healing process for other widowed people. The book was chosen by The Globe and Mail as one of the 100 Most Notable Books of 2008 and was long-listed for the B.C. Award for Canadian Non-Fiction, Canada's largest Non-Fiction prize. Today she hosts retreats at her home in southwest France, Chateau de Borie. Her retreats and workshops are dedicated to providing a supportive environment where you can cultivate self-awareness, and resilience, and embrace transformation in all its forms. Reality Life with Kate Casey What to Watch List: https://katecasey.substack.com Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/katecasey Twitter: https://twitter.com/katecasey Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/katecaseyca Tik Tok: http://www.tiktok.com/itskatecasey Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/113157919338245 Amazon List: https://www.amazon.com/shop/katecasey Like it to Know It: https://www.shopltk.com/explore/katecaseySee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

From 9/11 survivor to Winter Olympian and founder of Wings4Heroes, Lyubim Kogan reveals what it takes to lead without systems, money, or applause. Learn how to rebuild after crisis, honor promises, and find purpose—even in the toughest moments. Walk away believing, ‘If he can, so can I.'==========================================

A new June 2025 documentary from TMZ addresses the “fifth plane” of September 11, 2001, with testimonies from United 23 flight crew about what was almost another act of terrorism. Although certainly a missing piece of the story, the documentary does more to speculate and imply who and what was responsible for the other events than actually prove anything about the flight. The film has flight attendants, and a dramatization over their stories, who believed men who wore tan suits, a person in a burka, a sweating passenger, and passengers who didn't eat meat, were highly suspicious - all 24 years after the fact with post-911 perceptions. This follows the June 2024 release of a video that implied Saudi was directly involved in 911. These two stories follow the motif - going back to 2002 - when the Guardian reported “Uncle Sam's Lucky Finds,” which documented “the discovery of a flight manual in Arabic and a copy of the Koran in a car hired by Mohammed Atta and abandoned at Boston airport…” Then, a few days later, “another find, two blocks away from the twin towers, in the shape of Atta's passport.” Something was similarly said of another suspected plotter of 911.After the early 2025 New Orleans truck attack we likewise saw a reporter enter Shamsud-Din Jabbar's supposed home to find “religious materials, his Quran, an open Quran, with the passage there… and his prayer rug.”This follows the official description of 911 as Islamic “suicide attacks committed in 2001 by 19 militants associated with the Islamic extremist group al-Qaeda against targets.”All of this is despite the fact that these terrorists were documented to have been drinking alcohol, eating meat (even pork), hanging out with strippers, and spending lots of time in Las Vegas. And that is despite the fact that Muslims are forbidden from committing suicide, drinking alcohol or eating general meat, forbidden to engage with prostitution, and that there are no 72 virgins promised in their holy book. This is also despite the fact that at least 4 of the 19 supposed hijackers were still alive weeks after that fateful day. One story that is either lost, ignored, or debunked, is the report about 5 Dancing Israelis, an ABC story documenting how a witness named Maria in New Jersey watched three men on the roof of a white van “taking a movie.” She said they were taking video and phots of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background; they were “like happy, you know… they didn't look shocked to me.” After contacting authorities, police found the van filled with five men, a box cutter, lots of cash, and a curious defense: "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” The media then, as today, ran stories about Dancing Palestinians with no context to the short clips. Conveniently, an Israeli also happened to be at the Boulder, Colorado, fire attack recently to provide evidence of another Mohammed hurting innocent people. And this follows the embassy worker shooting in Washington by a man who happened to have a Jewish name. Both of these cases resulted in the ADL and US-AG calling for hardcore crackdowns of the First Amendment, just as 911 was used to wage the Israeli-US agenda of endless conflicts for regime change, resource theft, and systematic extermination of Arab populations across the Middle East. Just as General Wesley Clark claimed to have seen as part of a plan at the pentagon (7 countries in 5 years) prior to the invasion of Iraq - and with zero reasoning or evidence. And this followed the PNAC think tank - founded by William Kristol and Robert Kagan in 1997 (both Jewish) - that produced a document called Rebuilding America's Defenses, calling for a “catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor”; which is exactly what President Bush said in the White House daily log after 911: "The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today. We think it's Osama bin Laden." And many years later in 2008, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed the use of 911 for just such a plan: “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.” He said in one interview, “It's very good…. well, not very good, but it will generate immediate sympathy.” And this doesn't account for the Jewish Larry Silverstein who pulled Building 7 or the Jewish Michael Chertoff, former Secretary of Homeland Security, who co-wrote the Patriot Act and sold body scanners to airports. All the while Islam and Muslims have been blamed for 911 and virtually every other form of terrorism, while the entire Arab world has grown justifiably more angry with the western world and Israel (a country founded on terrorism) for their condemnation of that world and for their subsequent destruction of the same - creating immense blowback. And then profiting from said destruction with defense contractors, private security firms, and the general military industrial complex enriching themselves on the backs of a widespread ethnic cleansing of the Arab world. Now that the Arab world is fully prepared to retaliate against the western world, there is modern justification to finish the job that Israel started - all to their benefit.And the same exact operation is occurring with Blackrock and Zelensky (the gay-Jewish-actor) in Ukraine with minerals, agricultural land, strategic land, and other resources. Ukraine, a country he said was going to be “a big Israel.”*The is the FREE archive, which includes advertisements. If you want an ad-free experience, you can subscribe below underneath the show description.-FREE ARCHIVE (w. ads)SUBSCRIPTION ARCHIVEX / TWITTER FACEBOOKYOUTUBEMAIN WEBSITECashApp: $rdgable EMAIL: rdgable@yahoo.com / TSTRadio@protonmail.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-secret-teachings--5328407/support.

The National Security Hour with Col. Mike and Dr. Mike – Historian James Perloff revisits his earlier claim denying commercial airplanes struck on September 11, 2001. After consulting aviation experts, he acknowledges jet engines' titanium components and high speeds enabled aircraft to penetrate the World Trade Center and Pentagon. This update addresses demolition myths and underscores the..

Welcome back to Your World of Creativity, the show where we explore inspiration and innovation across the globe. Today we're diving into a topic at the intersection of design, sustainability, and creativity with our guest, Kevin Kennon, an internationally recognized architect with over 40 years of experience. He's the CEO of Beyond Zero DDC Inc., a visionary firm developing zero-carbon emission luxury wilderness resorts in remote locations around the world.Kevin's LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinkennonarchitect/Kevin 's Website Kevin 's Facebook page @pkk2418 on Instagram Here's an outline of our discussion:1: ORIGINS OF DESIGN THINKING “Kevin, take us back to the beginning. What sparked your passion for architecture, and how did your early work shape your current focus on sustainability?”“When did you first begin to integrate sustainability into your design process?”2: SUSTAINABLE DESIGN PHILOSOPHY “Your firm, Beyond Zero DDC Inc., focuses on zero-carbon emission resorts. What inspired this concept of sustainable luxury?”“What are the biggest challenges when building in remote wilderness areas—and how does your team overcome them creatively?”“How do you balance aesthetic excellence with environmental responsibility?”3: IMPACT ON URBAN PLANNING “A 2019 UN report said cities contribute 70% of global carbon emissions. In your opinion, what role does creative urban planning play in reversing this trend?”“How can architects, developers, and city planners collaborate better to create truly sustainable cities?” “We recently spoke with architect Joana Sa Lima in Oslo, who told us that good design can make cities more livable. How do you approach livability in your urban work?”“Another previous guest, Dr. Esther Sternberg, author of WELL AT WORK, discussed how architecture affects our health. How do you see design impacting physical and mental well-being?”4: ICONIC PROJECTS & LESSONS “Tell us about one of your most memorable projects—perhaps Barclays or the Rodin Museum—and what you learned from it.”“You were part of United Architects, a finalist in the World Trade Center design competition. What was that experience like, and how did it shape your thinking about architecture's cultural impact?”5: WHAT'S NEXT IN SUSTAINABLE ARCHITECTURE? “What innovations are on the horizon in sustainable architecture?”“Are there any emerging materials, technologies, or design philosophies you're excited about?”Sponsor:Before we go, a big thanks to our sponsor White Cloud Coffee Roasters. Get 10% off your order with the code CREATIVITY at checkout. Visit WhiteCloudCoffee.com.Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review Your World of Creativity on your favorite podcast app.Join us again next time as we continue to explore the creative journeys of the world's most innovative minds.Kevin Kennon is an internationally renowned architect with over 40 years of experience, specializing in environmentally sustainable and innovative design. As the founder and CEO of Beyond Zero DDC Inc., Kevin leads the development of zero-carbon emission luxury eco-resorts in remote...

Andrew Giuliani, Executive Director of the White House Task Force for the FIFA World Cup 2026, joins Sid as the son of former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani to discuss the death of his father's police commissioner during the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center, Bernard Kerik. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of the Power Producers Podcast, David Carothers sits down with Aris Papadopoulos, Chairman of the Resilience Action Fund and author of Resilientomics. Aris shares his unique perspective on resilience, from his experience as a 9/11 World Trade Center survivor to his passion for building stronger, more resilient homes and communities. Together, David and Aris explore how resilience is critical not just in construction, but in the insurance industry and beyond. Aris discusses his journey from the construction industry to founding the Resilience Action Fund and how he's working to educate consumers on the importance of resilience in the built environment. The conversation touches on everything from the impact of poor construction standards to how insurance professionals can incorporate resilience into their strategy. This episode offers valuable insights for anyone looking to improve their understanding of resilient building and the role it plays in property protection. Key Highlights: The Resilience Action Fund Aris discusses the Fund's mission to educate consumers about building resilient homes and the tools available on his website.   Building Resilient Homes Aris explains why building to code is not enough and the importance of prioritizing structural resilience over cosmetic upgrades.   Consumer Education Aris emphasizes the need for consumers to understand resilience and how the Fund is working to raise awareness.   Insurance and Resilience Aris talks about the role of insurance professionals in educating clients on resilience and incentivizing better building practices.   Challenges in the Building Industry Aris reflects on the slow pace of change in the construction industry and the resistance to adopting resilient practices.   Technology in Construction Aris explores how technologies like 3D printing are impacting construction and their role in building more resilient homes. Connect with: David Carothers LinkedIn Aris Papadopoulos LinkedIn Kyle Houck LinkedIn Visit Websites: Power Producer Base Camp Resilience Action Fund Killing Commercial Crushing Content Power Producers Podcast Policytee The Dirty 130 The Extra 2 Minutes

Aris Papadopoulos is a 9/11 World Trade Center survivor, veteran of the construction industry, and global leader in disaster resilience. He is the founder of the Resilience Action Fund, author of Resilienomics, and producer of two eye-opening documentaries that challenge how we think about the homes and buildings we live in. In today's episode, Aris joins me to share the gripping story of the morning he narrowly escaped death and how that moment completely changed the course of his life and career in construction. Aris explains the dangers of prioritizing cosmetics over resilience, and the costly mistakes that lead most homeowners to unknowingly live in vulnerable structures or make poor decisions during renovations. We unpack the silent dangers that many homeowners overlook, the common mistakes people make when buying or upgrading a home, and what you can do to make smarter, safer choices. We also talk about overlooked warning signs, the real role of building codes, and what insurance companies know that most buyers don't. Join us to learn: how to avoid top home-buying mistakes, what insurance companies know (that homeowners don't), and practical upgrades to protect your family, finances, and future.Aris Papadopoulos's Links:Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aris-papadopoulos-bb3584141/Connect with Hilary:Website: https://therelaunchco.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hilarydecesare/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheReLaunchCoInterested in being a guest on the ReLaunch Podcast or booking Hilary as a guest? Email us at hello@therelaunchco.comFind Us on Your Favorite Podcast App – https://the-silver-lined-relaunch.captivate.fm/listen