Podcast appearances and mentions of susan engel

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Joining me is Carmel McGee, a Tasmanian educator and certified lead teacher who has spent much of her career chasing one question: how do we actually create the conditions for curiosity to thrive? Carmel works at Riverside Primary School in Launceston, where she helps build classroom cultures where kids are curious, capable, and courageous. Her thinking has been shaped by some seriously impressive influences, including Project Zero at Harvard, UC Berkeley, and inquiry learning legends Kath Murdoch and Susan Engel. If you've ever wondered how we move students beyond just complying and into genuinely wanting to learn, this episode is for you.We get into why curiosity isn't some lucky personality trait some kids are just born with, and why it's something we can either deliberately nurture or accidentally shut down without even realising it. Carmel doesn't hold back when I ask her what's quietly killing curiosity in schools right now, and her answer about systems measuring answers instead of valuing thinking is going to make you rethink a few things about your own classroom.We also get really practical. What does a curious classroom actually look like? What is the teacher doing, and what are the students doing? Carmel breaks down why curious teachers create curious kids, why modelling "I don't know, let's find out together" matters more than we think, and why something as simple as not rushing to fill silence can completely change how your students engage.And because I couldn't let her go without asking the big stuff, we dig into Carmel's brilliant question: are we measuring what we value, or valuing what we measure? If you've ever felt like the things that matter most in your classroom don't fit neatly into a spreadsheet, you are going to feel so seen by this conversation.What you'll learn:Why curiosity isn't an inherent trait, and how it can be deliberately nurtured or accidentally shut down in the classroomWhat's quietly killing curiosity in schools right now, according to CarmelWhy curious teachers create curious kids, and how modelling "I don't know, let's find out together" shifts classroom cultureThe danger of measuring what's easy to count instead of valuing what actually matters, like curiosity, belonging, and engagementWhy wait time is one of the most underused, free tools available to every teacherPractical, explicit strategies to get more students contributing, including the "sticky note slam" and extended think-pair-shareWhy less than 5% of questions in most classrooms come from students themselves, and how to change thatHow Carmel approaches modelling a curious relationship with AI in the classroom, rather than ignoring it or banning it outrightThe one tiny shift Carmel would want every teacher to make tomorrow to bring curiosity front and centreHave a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!RESOURCES AND MORE SUPPORT:Shop all resourcesJoin The Behaviour ClubMy book! It's Never Just About the Behaviour: A holistic approach to classroom behaviour management The Low-Level Behaviour BootcampFree guide: 'Chats that Create Change'Connect with me:Follow on Instagram @the.unteachablesCheck out my website

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“How do you tend to respond when you do not know?” We had this question in our Journal Circle a couple of weeks ago. It’s at the heart of many issues in our world right now. How do we hold it?When do we conceal it?Where do we turn for knowledge?And what do we do with it when we acquire it? That’s what we explore in this episode of The Gentle Rebel Podcast. https://youtu.be/QRAS1dib_GM Our Relationship With Not Knowing I find this advert baffling. A couple are wandering around the Leeum Museum in South Korea. They didn't know it was big; they only gave themselves an hour. He thinks a roof tile is a book. Even when his phone corrects him, they skip off giggling without listening to the information. It reminds me of a billboard from the AI company Turing that says the quiet part out loud: “We teach AGI to think, reason, and code—so you don’t have to.” Are we being encouraged to outsource our thinking and reasoning, not to support and deepen our cognitive abilities, but to replace them? Are they saying we don’t have to think or reason anymore? Even if that’s not the intention, it’s certainly the outcome of using many tools like this. There seems to be a disregard for the sacred delight of human consciousness, thought processes, and creativity. And a subtle quest to eliminate mystery, curiosity, and the learning that comes from not knowing. Yet not knowing has always been central to human potential. It is the driving force of creativity, innovation, and deeper connection to the worlds within, around, and between us. Open and Closed Stances As people reflected in our Journal Circle, a thread emerged: openness vs closedness. Closed not-knowing: defensive, protective, secretive. Open not-knowing: curious, relational, exploratory. Closedness can feel tight. Clenched. Like rushing to paint over the threat of embarrassment or being found out. Openness can feel spacious. Physically expansive, deeper, and less pressured. Where the uncertainty is met with an invitation into possibility and curiosity rather than grasping, clinging, and defensiveness. We explore several ways this plays out in everyday life. Pretending To Know One response to not knowing is pretending to know. We’ve probably all done it. Nodding along when everyone else seems to understand. Staying quiet because asking a question feels risky. Research in 2007 found that children aged 14 months to five years ask an average of 107 questions per hour. By the time they reach late primary school, many stop asking questions altogether. In the episode, I share an anecdote from research led by Susan Engel, where a ninth grader is stopped mid-question with the instruction: “No questions now, please; it's time for learning.” Within institutional settings, our natural curiosity and creativity can be left behind, and if questions are deemed disruptive or inappropriate, we may simply pretend to know and struggle quietly. This is especially true for many more introverted and sensitive people, who are already generally disposed to slot in around others without drawing much attention to themselves. Child-like Curiosity A child doesn’t see their lack of knowledge as a reason to be ashamed. It’s underpinned by the electric buzz of connection. Everything is new, mysterious, and waiting to be explored. For an adult moving through and out of a rigid system, not knowing can feel like an exposing story in which their worth as a human is assessed. Pretending to know can become an adaptive strategy. A way to keep the peace. A way to belong. There's also the technological version, prominent in many AI tools people rely on for accurate information. These systems are designed to always produce an answer, even when they are wrong. This reflects the kind of closed pretending that aims to foster a perception of expertise, so those listening believe that the source’s confidence equates to competence. But pretending doesn't only come from intentional deception. It can stem from stories we absorb, linking knowledge with worth: “I must know in order to be useful.”“I must be useful in order to be accepted.” Letting go of that story can be liberating. Saying “I Don't Know” “I don't know” is an option. A surprisingly radical one. When it is open, it creates space to explore our unknowing. An open “don’t know” admits not knowing with hands turned towards learning and discovery. It might come with an inner spark and the freedom from performance. A closed “I don't know” shuts things down. It can signal indifference or defensiveness. Sometimes that boundary is healthy. Sometimes it is armour. Being “In The Know” There is also the social currency of being “in the know.” Trends. News. Other people's business. Ignorance can feel like bliss. It can also feel like exclusion. From a closed place, being in the know becomes about control. From an open place, it can become a source of connection. The ability to link ideas, introduce people, and catalyse collaboration. Knowing What's Best Another response to uncertainty is doubling down on certainty. We are pattern-seeking creatures. We build cognitive maps to navigate a complex world. But when ambiguity feels overwhelming, certainty can feel like solid ground, even if it's forged, manufactured, and brittle. Closedness says “this is how it is”, refuses nuance, and punishes curiosity and accountability as disrespect, insolence, and rudeness. Open wisdom looks different. It sits shoulder to shoulder, acknowledges nuance, and is willing to say, “I don't know the best thing to do here.” Admitting one does not know can be a radical act in cultures that equate doubt with weakness and desperately seek a way to explain and understand everything, even without empirical evidence. Knowing That We Don't Know In a 1933 essay lamenting the rise of the Nazi movement in Germany, Bertrand Russell wrote, “The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt.” Charles Bukowski said something similar when giving advice to budding writers: “But the problem is that bad writers tend to have the self-confidence, while the good ones tend to have self-doubt.“ These quotes highlight the importance of knowing what we do not know — and recognising the limits of our own perspective. This took us to a detour into the Dunning–Kruger effect, which is the idea that we can speak confidently about subjects precisely because we don't yet know what we don't know. Reading Maps and Navigating Life “I don't know, but I am aware of where to look to figure it out.” In The Return To Serenity Island course, we map elements of life, seeing it as a treasure laden island. Not knowing is a door to connection, curiosity, creativity, and exploration. But it can also feel disorienting, confusing, and alienating at times. Maps help disorientation become orientation-in-progress without strict instructions or someone else’s path to follow. They can bring us home to ourselves.

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Susan Engel, St. Michael's Veterans Center | 1-19-26See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Every year more than 3 million kids march off to kindergarten, a mysterious world about which adults know very little. Research psychologist Susan Engel, who has spent a lifetime studying how children think, play and learn, set out to change that, shining a light on an experience that is nearly universal and yet little understood. Twenty-nine classrooms, thirteen states and countless tiny chairs later, Engel offers a glimpse into the reality that is American kindergarten. Surprising, concerning, funny and hopeful, Engel's depiction will forever change the way you think about the first year of school. The financial support of listeners like you keeps this podcast going. Subscribe on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/HaveYouHeardPodcast

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Before October 7th, Trump’s second term and the election of Zohran Mamdani rocked New York’s Jewish community, Manhattan’s famed 92nd Street Y – like most mainstream Jewish institutions – played it relatively safe when it came to programs about Israel. Susan Engel, executive producer of the 92nd St. Y Talks, tells the Haaretz Podcast that the famed Manhattan cultural center has undergone “a soul-searching since October 7 around our own Jewish identity and around who we are as a Jewish institution. And I think we've had to double down on our values and what it means to present different views, sometimes critical of Israel – because it's important to hear what someone else who thinks differently” has to say. Her audiences – in-person and the millions who watch her events online – she believes, greatly “appreciate” the fact that she can bring together people who “really disagree strongly” yet can “have a conversation and be civil.” At the same time, she said, the Y – founded as a center for Jewish life and culture in 1874 – experienced a boycott and staff walkouts after October 7 – maintains “red lines.” They will not platform those who have expressed “homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic” views or “if we feel that someone believes that Israel should be destroyed.” On the podcast, Engel also discusses the big-name cultural, political and Hollywood figures who have taken to the 92nd St. Y stage, including a recent appearance by Rob Reiner, who died tragically earlier this month, the art of creating an intimate space for interviews when millions are watching, and her experience as a judge at the Jerusalem Jewish Film Festival. Read more: How October 7 Is Impacting Jewish Cultural Life in America ADL Accuses Mamdani Transition Members of Engaging in 'Antisemitic, anti-Zionist' Activities Jerusalem Jewish Film Festival coverage: From NYC to Jerusalem, This Radical Artist Asks 'After the Revolution, Who's Going to Pick Up the Garbage?'See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Adani chats with Dr. Susan Engel, a Senior Lecturer and Senior Faculty Fellow in Psychology at Williams College. Susan's research spans many areas, including the development of curiosity and invention, children's ideas, the impact of college, and school reform. In this conversation, we discuss Susan's seminal research on children's curiosity, how curiosity develops into adulthood, and her latest book, The Intellectual Lives of Children. Susan also shares the story behind how she first started in this field of research, and the projects she's excited to work on next.Susan's website: https://psychology.williams.edu/profile/sengel/ Susan's book The Hungry Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Hungry-Mind-Origins-Curiosity-Childhood/dp/0674984110Susan's book The Intellectual Lives of Children: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-intellectual-lives-of-children-susan-engel/1136606329Susan's upcoming book American Kindergarten: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/A/bo258923309.htmlAdani's website: https://www.adaniabutto.comAdani's Bluesky: @adaniPodcast Twitter @StanfordPsyPodPodcast Substack https://stanfordpsypod.substack.com/Let us know what you thought of this episode, or of the podcast! :) stanfordpsychpodcast@gmail.com

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