Podcasts about marsh mccall

Mike Teverbaugh joins me and discusses his names pronunciation; his new play, The Mostly True Story of a Common Scold; his other play, The Dugout; watching Captain Kangaroo as a child; Batman 66; going to UCLA to become a sportswriter; meeting his wife and future co-writer; writing spec scripts; joining an entertainment softball team; that leading to working on Who's the Boss; Billy; working on Getting By; going to Roc for season 3; being thankful they didn't write for the live show; Almost Perfect and the resort episode; being writing partners with your wife; getting Drew Carey and not having to worry about being cancelled every year; huge writer's rom; mistakes episode; working with Jerry Belson & Sam Simon; Drew Carey's surprise end of season cruise and Mike gambles against Sam; Life on a Stick and being proud of writing for "one of the 25 worst sitcoms of all time"; Twenty Good Years; working with Marsh McCall & John Lithgow; choosing Sullivan & Son over a Bill Burr animated project; he and his wife writing on Dreamwork Dragons; Dreamworks interference leads to them leading; Last Man Standing; retiring from TV and writing ten minute plays with his wife.

Jesse McLaren is a Jimmy Kimmel writer.Show NotesJesse McLaren on Twitter - https://twitter.com/McJesseJesse McLaren on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/larenmcjesse/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptJesse McLaren:If something just pops into your head on a Saturday of a story that, you know, you'll be talking about Monday, right? Like, I I did it. I got, I got something I know is like, gonna be really funny to pitch on Monday, right? So it's actually a little bit of a relief. It's not like, oh, I can't stop thinking about work. It's like, oh, and now I don't have to stress Sunday night or whatever. It's like, I know that, well, I'm gonna go into Monday with something I think is, is strong.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. I got a very interesting guest today because he's gonna tell us all about something I know very little about, but I always aspired to do when I was younger. This, this, my next guest, Jesse McLaren, is a writer on Jimmy Kimmel. And again, I like, yeah man, I, I just wanna know all about that. Cause as a child, I was like, man, I, that, that would've been the, the pinnacle. But I went another way. I went into sitcom writing. But, but, but, but with how we met, we were, I was walking the strike line outside of Disney and then Jesse goes, Hey man, I know you. And he pulls me over cuz he follows, I guess he follows me on TikTok or Instagram. And I was like, Hey, what do you doing? And he's like, I'm on Kimmel. So, welcome to this show. Thank you Jesse, for being here.Jesse McLaren:Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I wanna know all about, and I asked you, I asked him you know, you, I guess I'll talk to you like how you broke in and you're like, Twitter. So tell me what that, how that all came about?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I'm you know, like I, I've always wanted to work in late night. That's always been my end goal. And, you know, as aMichael Jamin:Kid, sawJesse McLaren:ConanMichael Jamin:AsJesse McLaren:A child. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like cutting school to see Conan. I, I grew up in Long Island andMichael Jamin:So you go into the city to see a show.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I just remember like watching in between, you know, the the segments, just watching the people behind the scenes going like, how do I end up working here when I was like, you know, 16 maybe.Michael Jamin:Wow.Jesse McLaren:And then I always watch work late night. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then what did you think about, like, usually you, you write a packet and you submit, right? Is that, but you didn't do that,Jesse McLaren:That's usually what you do. Yeah. I mean, I for Kimel they found me on Twitter. So, you know, after I, I started tweeting jokes and making videos on Twitter as much as I could for a period of time. I used to work at you know, for a while I worked at different TV shows. So I, I'm one of the, I think many people late night who worked production jobs first. Right. I used to work at the field, field departments and that kind of thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I noticed it. So you worked like, on, on Colbert, you did a bunch of different showsJesse McLaren:Right. Yeah. I worked on a lot of daytime TV shows, Uhhuh , kind of, it's actually kind of a similar structure, you know as far as how the show runs, but it's obviously very different content. Right. Michael Jamin:But why didn't you ever start writing packets and submitting, or, I don't even know how that works. Why, why didn't you do that?Jesse McLaren:Well, I did. So when I was, you know, I, I, my first, I, you know, landed a job that was my dream, which I worked at the Colbert Poor. Right. doing production, doing you know, the field department when he would travel to DC and that kind of thing. And interview congressman. Right. A series called Better Know A District. Mm-Hmm. . And whenever a writer job opened up there, anyone who was in the, you know, a PA or an ap, which I was, or anything like that, they would submit a packet. And you know, then starting, like, you get to know the writers and you start hearing rumors like, oh, you know, they're starting a new show called Larry Wilmore. Right. And, you know, our whatever. And you start submitting packets to whatever you can as someone who's not represented, but someone who kind of has,Michael Jamin:So how do you submit even if you don't have an agent?Jesse McLaren:Well back at that point, it was like, if you, you know, like you have a friend of a friend who's like submitting and they'll say, this is the email we're told to send it to. By this time it kind of becomes this like, network of just like, you know, so like, if you find out about a packet, you might tell some of your other friends, there'sMichael Jamin:A packet going on. So. Okay. Good. So how did you make, how did you have friends that knew all this?Jesse McLaren:I think that was from working at Colbert, you know, I was, I interned there, I applied as in when I was in college, I applied to be an intern at Everywhere, but I ended up at MTV Networks. Right. And you know, it was like my second to last semester I was interning at Nickelodeon mm-hmm. and like in a tape room, just like, just filing tapes. And I, and in the orientation I heard someone in the elevator go, oh, you know, I'm gonna be at the Daily Show. And that's went wait, that, that was a possibility, you know? Yeah. and in New York at that time, yeah,Michael Jamin:Go ahead. No, tell, keep going. This's just fascinating to me. Go ahead.Jesse McLaren:This the, the Daily Show and the Colbert Report were like the two shows under MTV that were actually a show that shot and you would actually be part of a production, you know? Yeah. so I applied to be at the Colbert Report. I think it helped that I already had an internship with NT Networks and I interned there eventually, you know, made connections there, which sometimes throughout the next few years, like if they needed a PA for the week, I would come by and that kind of thing.Michael Jamin:See, this is what I'm always telling people. I say, get as close as you can physically to the job you want. And that's what you did is as an intern or pa whatever it is, you're just getting close. Just so you could learn, be around it, hear from other people, and just make those contacts that way. Right. And then, yeah.Jesse McLaren:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then when you're putting together packets, I mean, each show they kind of do, they kind of want different stuff? I mean, they might, they must say they do, they must say no, Conan's voice is this and, you know, were you studying the Yeah,Jesse McLaren:I mean, every packet's way different. I mean, the, at the time the Colbert packet I remember was like pretty intense. It was like, you had, you had that segment, the word Uhhuh , I dunno if you're familiar with the show, but that one. But it was pretty, it was, you know, a to camera on one subject and it would have all these editorial like voices through text, just kind of like shining in Okay. As jokes. But also, and it was kind of complicated, especially if you've never written for, you know, like it's one thing to write a page of monologue jokes, but it's another like, write an entire one of these segments that has to like, you know, be about a topic that needs attention and then it's written in a clever way and, you know, so, butMichael Jamin:So you're basically coming up, were you coming with any original stuff or just like, okay, here's my version of, you know, of that the word or you, or you coming with any new bits for him to do, you know what I'm saying? Any like, you know,Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Any packet I've ever seen has always been different. Some, so that show specifically, I think they really were like, like focused on what they want. Right. For the packets. Like one of these segments we do one of these segments, we do, maybe it, you know, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was pretty much like especially cuz that that was show wasn't like monologue jokes. It was a character who had a very specific point of, you know didn't realize he was saying funny things like that kinda thing.Michael Jamin:Right. And so you turn you hand in these packets. It's not like they have a hiring season, they justJesse McLaren:No. IfMichael Jamin:You get lucky, if they, if they were hiring today, great. If not, maybe they keep you on file. Is that how it works?Jesse McLaren:I guess. I mean, I've never gotten hired from a packet, so it's like, I don't, you dunno. I think every show is completely different and I think every you know, I'm not entirely sure how we do it at Kimmel, but I, and I know they found me through, through Twitter. I know other people have written packets for them, but I, and so onMichael Jamin:Twitter, this is amazing. So you're just going out. What were you doing at the time? You've been on Twitter for how, for how long? How many years?Jesse McLaren:Like a while , I mean, I worked at like, so let's see, probably like eight years. I've been like actively really using it aMichael Jamin:Lot. And so every morning you, how would, like, before you get hired by Kimmel, what's your, what's your process for writing? You just come up, you sit down on the table, you read the newspaper and you try to bang out 10 jokes or what do you do?Jesse McLaren:No, I think it's more quality over quantity for that kind of thing too. Cuz you just wanna, I think the thing with Twitter is it's like, you know, but when the news story happens, this wave and you kind of want to get the funniest joke in there as early as possible.Michael Jamin:But are you ta Okay, so, but are you just putting it on your feed or are you writing it under el someone else's comment? Like a news, someone like newscaster's comment and then you, you know, to try to get their trafficked?Jesse McLaren:I think it, no, just writing a joke about, everyone's talking about one thing, you know, if you just have the perfect thing I'm trying to think of a good example. It's really hard off the top of my head. ButMichael Jamin:So you just post it in your, your feed, you give it a hashtag hope someone would search for it, hopes hope one of your whatever friends will follow you. Retweets it and it goes viral. Yeah. That's your plan, that's your, that's your plan basically. Yeah.Jesse McLaren:I think every social media's a little different, but like, especially Twitter, the whole thing is trying to get retweets. That's how something, and so how very quickly could have, you know,Michael Jamin:But then how, okay, so something would occur to you and then you'd write a couple jokes or just one or what, or as it as it comes, you just tweet it. And now did you have a schedule? Did you have any kind of discipline to this or were you just like, whatever came to you?Jesse McLaren:I don't think I had any discipline. No. I think with Twitter it's like, you know, it's in a, an addiction almost. It's just uhhuh. You'll be out today with your friends, you'll look down at your phone, just see like, oh my God, I can't believe, you know, just something happened. AndMichael Jamin:Okay. So you, you're on there a lot then basically you're,Jesse McLaren:I used to be on there very often. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Really. And so on an average day before you were found, like how many tweets would you send out in a day?Jesse McLaren:I don't know, maybe like five to 10 kind of. Okay. It's hard to tell. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then some would get, but a lot ofJesse McLaren:It would also, yeah. And a lot of it would also just be like at work. I also worked at Buzzfeed for a while. Okay. So I kind of, one I in real life had knew people who you know, we followed each other on social media, but they had big social media followings. So they saw something, I tweeted a joke that they liked, they might retweet it and that would get me more followers. And then it also just working there really taught me a lot about how social media works and yeah.Michael Jamin:What, what, what did you learn that you could share? Like what's your take big takeaway?Jesse McLaren:Well, I think, I mean specifically with jokes and Twitter, I, you know, one, they all change over time a little bit. But I, I think Twitter consistently, like the, if you want a lot of people to see something you made, it almost doesn't even matter how many followers you have. But if you can get something retweeted a lot, it can kind of just work away brush fire where, you know, you might have, you know, 30 followers, but if someone sees it and retweets it and more people do it, it could, butMichael Jamin:Are youJesse McLaren:Creating a brand 30,000?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Are you staying on brand when you do this? Or are you like, cause it's one thing like, okay, this guy tweets out funny topical jokes every day and he is not tweeting out what he ate for lunch. Like, you know what I'm saying? Do, are you staying on brand? I'm a joke writer and that's it.Jesse McLaren:I don't know. Maybe, I mean, yeah, I don't know.Michael Jamin:You don't know. You're just going with it. Whatever was wor I mean, it worked. I'm just curious how it, how it worked.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I mean, to me it was just always jokes and you know, I would also, you know, make videos or Photoshops just, you know, pieces of actual media, that kinda thing, Uhhuh. But it was always the goal of, you know, tweeting something and seeing as many people trying to get a lot of engagement with itMichael Jamin:And thenJesse McLaren:Hopefully something funny. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then someone found it and then had, tell me how Kimmel came about.Jesse McLaren:I think, well over time, like, you know, I, the more I started realizing that this could lead to a writing job more than I, you know, I used to work at the Colbert Report, I submitted packets places, but that never really did anything for me. Right. Always, you know, never WereMichael Jamin:You frustrated? Were you frustrated by that? Were you upset or what, you know, when you weren't getting hired, what, how, what was your take on that?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, it's frustrating. It's also, if I go back and read one of those packets now I like can't do it. You know? So it's like, at the time I thought this is like the best interesting thing I've ever written. How could they not hire me? And thenMichael Jamin:Interesting. And really, cuz you've really grown and that just comes from practice, you think? Or what?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think, you know, it's any, anything that gives you actual feedback is really important. And to me, Twitter gave me feedback. I'm really like, you know, not comfortable on stage. I don't have that drive. I don't like doing Right. Performance.Michael Jamin:I asked you that if you're a standup and you're like, no, I don't want to, I don'tJesse McLaren:Wanna do standup. Yeah. It's like, I never no interest. I like the one, the few writers who doesn't wanna be on camera Uhhuh. But Twitter for, that's why for me specifically, it was a really good way to learn how to be a better writer just because you'd see what people actually find funny and especially once, you know.Michael Jamin:Okay. So then how, so someone, somehow, one of your tweets, do you know which one landed on the, on the desk of Jimmy Kimmel somehow?Jesse McLaren:I'm not sure which one. I think it might have been about Mike Ee.Michael Jamin:Oh,Jesse McLaren:Okay. I feel like it was like some kind of like, I tweeted something, I just remember I think like Julie Louis Dreyfus maybe retweeted it or something. It's like sometimes you would see like, oh, this person retweeted or tweet, you know?Michael Jamin:Right. Jesse McLaren:And then I just remember like within quick succession, like Jimmy and a couple of his writers our producers followed me like within like 15 minutes. So I don't know if it was from that tweet or if it was from, you know.Michael Jamin:And how would you, how would you know? I mean, you're not following your followers by the second, I mean, no,Jesse McLaren:I, I if it says like, when, like, I think when someone verified, followed you. Okay. At that point it would be like, before people were verified, they were like, you know,Michael Jamin:And so you noticed they followed you and you're like, damn, this is good. And then what happened?Jesse McLaren:And then yeah, I eventually they reached out and just said, Hey, when, you know, we would respond to know more about you. And eventually that kind of turned into an interview process, you know, once I expressed.Michael Jamin:But they didn't ask ask you to submit a packet though?Jesse McLaren:I didn't end up submitting a packet for them. No.Michael Jamin:They just looked at your body of work on Twitter and go, okay, this guy's funny, consistently funny. Right.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I think, I think I kind of treated that week as my, or whatever it was as my packet where I would just consistently tweet things that I thought were in the show's voice or that they would maybe see and go, God, I wish, you know, we should have, we should have thought of that. You know, anything that I can think that they might think that is like what I really tried to do. AndMichael Jamin:Okay, so then they hire you. Tell me what your day is like. Well, first of all, are you working in person or are you on zoom or remote or now, you knowJesse McLaren:Yeah, we're in person.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you're in person. So you go to work, you show up, what, 10 o'clock?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, we start early at home and we write a lot of our jokes at at home first, which is great.Michael Jamin:. So you come in prepared. How many, how many jokes will you have when you come into work?Jesse McLaren:We will, you know, we'll write anything from, they'll always say it's quality over quality. Right. You know, they don't wanna have to sift through too many jokes just cause you wanna, you know so like, I would say that anywhere from 10 to 20 is normal.Michael Jamin:You feel good about it, you feel good there. Okay. These are, and then,Jesse McLaren:But it's, it matters. Which of your jokes get kicked. So in the morning then, you know, they'll kind of, I think Jimmy will go through all the material and at that point, you know, that's, that's all you care about. You know, you don't care about how many jokes you sent, you care about how many eventuallyMichael Jamin:Get. And so on a good day, what, how many of your jokes will get in on, on into the mono? You're talking about the monologue now?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Yeah. I could someone told me when I started I've heard this from other shows too, people say like, one is a good day or is an amazing day. Right. That's something I've heard like at Colbert. And I think that kind of holds up. Like if you get, but it's more about, you know, it's not just jokes, it's kind of over time. Like, if you have one joke a few days in a row, maybe that's not great. If you have one day that was just incredible, you had a segment you wrote that did really well, you'd feel good. Right? And the next day you don't get any jokes, you know, you just be like, okay, well I had a great day yesterday and today I didn't get as many on.Michael Jamin:What, what do you do with the jokes that don't get selected? Do you tweet them or are they just go in the garbage?Jesse McLaren:I used to, sometimes I would tweet them, but it's, it just felt like, you know, you never know if a story's gonna come up again in some way you don't expect. Okay. And maybe that joke is worth revisiting. It's rare. You, you don't wanna read pitch a joke ever, you know, I'm sure. No,Michael Jamin:You don't wanna re No, you don't wanna pitch it again to, to, right. But yeah, I think you can retool it and change it enough to make it fresh.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. But also at a certain point you're like, well, this already failed some kind of test to this joke. You know? Right. Cause you never completely confident in a joke. You're like, well, if the show didn't want this, maybe it's not the best joke. So I've, in the past, a joke didn't get on, I tweeted it and it just fell flat and no one cared. And I'm like, oh, well,Michael Jamin:MustJesse McLaren:ThatMichael Jamin:Must not be funny. But, so if, when you come into work, let's say, all right, let's say you you put together 10 jokes. How long would that take you to, before you feel, okay, is it an hour work? How long does it take you to do that?Jesse McLaren:It's like they send out, you know, they'll send out topics in the morning. A writer's assistant who gets a very early will send out topics and then you send your jokes. And that's usually a period of about an hour and 50 minutes.Michael Jamin:But we'reJesse McLaren:The start out later. You can start out earlier youMichael Jamin:Know, are, when you, they say topics, are they giving you the setups of setups or they just say, we, you know, we wanna do jokes about inflation or whatever.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Like here are like five, eight to whatever story, like five, eight stories that are good, whatever. Okay. If you have another story story, you think, okay, we should cover that. Go ahead. But it's like a good, just kind of keeps everyone grounded. At least we're all talking about similar things. TheMichael Jamin:Same thing. You see. That's interesting because like, I, I've tweeted a couple of jokes just as you know, when I had downtime, well, more than a couple, but whatever there I, I, I found if I went onto a website, I'm just curious what your take is like going on c n n or whatever, or, or ha Washington. Any website, New York Times, Washington Post go on their site and reading their headline or reading the article to me was not helpful. Cuz they already had an angle. Whereas I just wanted to get this, gimme the straight line. And so I would go into other, they would just like the news to, you know, you know, aggregators I the straight just gimme the straight line so I don't get any spin on it. And then I'll come up with a spin. Is that how you do it or no,Jesse McLaren:No, I think we just see the, the headline and to write jokes for something, you have to kind of think of every angle you can to see if there's something funny. So yeah, I think that usually works itself out because whatever the story is, you know, you're, it's more the headline and the facts of it that you're just trying to find any do youMichael Jamin:Feel you've gotten better at this over the years? Is it coming? Does it gotten easier for you?Jesse McLaren:I think it has gotten easier, but it's not like, oh, I get this many jokes on now as I think now, just the process is more I can recognize a good joke. Yes, I can, I can edit myself better now. Right. I can say, you know what, instead of saying sending these 15 jokes, I'm gonna send these eight and this is probably the best. You know, I think that's what I've gotten better at.Michael Jamin:And this is something that you do, even when you're in a b obviously when you're in a bad mood, when you're not in the mood to be funny, you gotta be funny.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. And it's, it's, but yeah, I, I just, I love it. I love sitting down and writing. I morning is my favorite part of the day and right know, I kind of like the way that it's, our day is structured where the most high pressure part is over with as quick as possible. Cuz once that's done, you kind of did as writers, at least for everyone else, the day is structured a little different, but for us it's like you have to really be on point in the morning.Michael Jamin:And how many monologue writers are there on Kimmel?Jesse McLaren:I think altogether we have, I should know, it's probably around 15 to 20 writers in general. Wow. But we're not split like other shows. NotMichael Jamin:Some other shows. Yeah. How do the, how do other shows do it? I cut you off. Some have monologue writers then what else?Jesse McLaren:I think like Fallon, I know had a friend there who was like, he was like, I'm a monologue writer. Like I write monologue. I think every show, you know, all these shows, I think every show kind of like figured it out for themselves. Yeah. So every show is a little bit of a different, like, universe kind of built around the same thing. But some of them are just, you know but some of them are separated where it's like, these are the monologue writers. These people write segment pitches or bits. But you kind of all do everything. AndMichael Jamin:So, okay, Seth, tell me what it's like. Okay, so you come to work now, you're given, you know, I don't know, whatever, 10 jokes. Now you're in the office and, and then what's next?Jesse McLaren:It depends, you know, with the jokes, you, if you, you also pitch any bits you could think of, like something that would just have more substance and be, you know producible. It's very important. You know?Michael Jamin:And that seems to be the hard part for me. How, how do you come up with that?Jesse McLaren:You know, I think that's what I was good at on Twitter is I think that's kind of what they liked about my Twitter. I would, you know, like one example I could think of that I think that they saw was Sarah Huckabee Sanders was giving it was like, you know, when Sarah Huckabee Sanders first started, there was a lot of attention on her. And everyone's like, who is this person? And mm-hmm. , she, I think she was talking about sinkhole under the White House. Do you remember? That was a story. It was like, I, I don't remember that White House. Yeah. It was like one of these things, like at the time it was just like, what the fuck? It's like there are sinkhole opening up under the White House and there's, you see like pictures of caution tape and there's jokes about like, you know, they're sinking into hell or whatever it is. But she said in you know, she was, I remember what it was exactly, but she was maybe saying there aren't sinkhole under the White House, but whatever she was saying, she was denying that this was a thing. So I, you know, am able to, I even used After Effects to have her slowly sinking as she said that. And then, you know, she like plummets through.Michael Jamin:But that, that's a funny bit. But that would've been, that would've gone in the monologue, right?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think so. So that, and, and, and that's something that but that's something I did before Kimmel. But that I think maybe got their attention maybe when they said that's the kind of thing we want, you know? Right. But that's what our show would consider. Like, a bit something that has some production to it that you could get that done by the end of the day. Mm-Hmm. . And the fact that I kind of knew I could do this myself, it wouldn't look nearly as good as our team cuz they're professionals. Professionals. Right. But I know that if I pitched that at the show, I know like, okay, we can get this done by four o'clock, whatever taping is today. ButMichael Jamin:You wouldn't on the show, you wouldn't have done the app. You wouldn't have done the, the graphic. Someone else would've doneJesse McLaren:It. No. Yeah. Yeah. So just helps tap the knowledge. Yeah. It just helps to know like, cuz he never,Michael Jamin:It's producible. Yes. Right.Jesse McLaren:Drives people crazy. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But do and do bigger bits, like any kind of, you know, do you also do like something that are more stagey with him or out in the field or whatever? Do you pitch that as well?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I mean, those are you know, always a very specific thing. You know, it'll be like, those will be like an assignment. It'll be, Hey, by five o'clock, send some ideas for, you know, this actor wants to do something with us and they're promoting this movie where they're a fighter pilot or something. And you'll go, okay. Like, and we'll have them for two. Maybe you'll get, maybe you'll get something like that. We'll have them for a couple hours. Right. And so, and they can't change it to cost or whatever because they're becoming right from thing. You know, there's always like you, it's all restriction. Yeah. It's all you take, you take, especially in late night, it's like, what can we make the most out of, out of this? And yeah. And then there are some times that we do, we are able to do something that is time and production and people, you know, is a bigger thing.But, you know, for our main day to day Uhhuh , it's always thinking about making this producible. Making sure this is something that we can get done in time. Right. That's exactly right. You never wanna get them wet. Nothing where they have wardrobe change, , you know, like their hair wet. But now what is the, what is like the, the contract cycle look like for a late night writer is like how long? Yeah. How long is your contracts usually? Three years, I think. Which I think is typical of Yeah. Like you have an option. I would assume a new writer would've an option for like 10 weeks or something. No, and then, well, I think, I think it's the op It's that thing where you're, well, I'm on cycles. I think about like 13 weeks, something like that, right. From their side. Like, they can get rid of me every 13.That's the way I always, always understood it when I worked in daytime. That's how it was. Like, you know, not even as a, just as like a field producer or whatever. They had me on, I think the same exact situation where every 13 weeks when I was at like you know, Rachel Ray or whatever the daytime TV show was, it was like every 13 weeks they might get rid of you or you could yeah. You're outta your contract after one year, two year, three years, depending on what they give you. That kind basically pay, pay raise. Right. That's what that, that's what that means. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you renegotiate, you know? Right. You, yeah.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Jesse McLaren:You've been, well, you've been on staff now for what, five years on Kimmel? Lemme see. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not sweating it out every 13 weeks. The way someone who just started would be sweating it out. You know, I don't, yeah. I, I, yeah. I always am just like, so feel so lucky that I get to work in late night at all. And, but I can never, and and I'll always, if I have a bad week, I'm like, I'm gonna get fired. That's just always the way my brain just works. That's part of the way I motivate myself for good or bad. But it won't compare to that first 13 weeks where legitimately you're like, I might not be good at this job. I don't know. Cause I have no point of reference in how much collaboration is there with other writers? Do you have a writing room?We don't have as much of a writing room on our show in terms of like every day. Like, it's like we have a morning meeting of writers every day kind of thing. Uhhuh we just have our room just for like, oh, today we're just, it's more casual. Mm-Hmm. , it's more people have, if you're having a problem with something, you're just like, I can't figure out the ending to this thing. Whatever. Right. That's when you'll, we'll be like, oh, let's, you know, just bring it up today. And then there's a lot of just kind of casual. You just pull someone else in to something. You know, sometimes it's like, I have a really funny idea, I think for this guest coming up. I don't watch the show though. Like, do you watch this show? Does this make sense? Do you wanna team up with me on it and we'll both play together? Or that kinda thing. Yeah. Now,Michael Jamin:So who is it, I'm sure that, I'm guessing there's a head writer on Kimmel who reads all the submissions and decides what to give to Jimmy for his ultimate approval. Is that how it works?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. We have head writers who split, you know, responsibility. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, you know, because our show is so quick, you know, everything would be filtered through head writers or if it's like the show's starting in five minutes, it's like, just show him whatever, you know, if you need something approved for that night and he's in the makeup chair, maybe you would.Michael Jamin:Right. are you on the floor during taping or no?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. not often, no. I mean, our studio you know, I have just for like, I, I haven't too often now our our, our studio is a little cramped, so we don't really go in there tooMichael Jamin:Often, so, but you watch it. I, I guess in your office you have a live feed, you know, line. Yeah.Jesse McLaren:We, we, we'll watch it from, I mean it's, I'm saying this now because we just went through a pandemic, so we're still like, everything is still like very restricted and everything. Yeah. we're still like, you know, obviously you know, but we, we would normally watch it from like a green room in, in the building that would be like, you know, where everyone would just kind of meet up and watch the show.Michael Jamin:Right. See what works and what doesn't work.Jesse McLaren:Is there a posts the pandemic? It'sMichael Jamin:You know, do you talk about it afterwards? Or like, are you done once the show's done? Do you all go home? What what's next?Jesse McLaren:I think so. I mean, for the, for me, for the writers, like the staff writers, that's pretty much then you're just getting ready for the next day. Uhhuh you know I'm sure for the producers and other people on the show, it's a different story that, you know, but for us who have the easiest job, because we're our, you know, like I said before, the pressure for us is done in the morning. That's when we really have to get, you know, our ideas out and everything. Are there not as much sweating at that point?Michael Jamin:Are there many In my mind it's mostly a young, young person's game that there aren't, and I could be totally wrong about this, but there aren't, are there, are there many like people maybe my age who are still writing for, for late night? Or do they move on theJesse McLaren:Things? No, I think for sure.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously Robert smis like the famous guy, but I, I didn't know like what kind of, you know, did these guys, did they bounce around from show to show? Is that how it works?Jesse McLaren:No, I don't know. Cause I think a lot of these shows are pretty like, you know the writer, there's not a lot of writing turnover. Some of them I think there are, but you know, where I've worked at Colbert and came, there's not as much turnover. And I think, yeah. The age ranges, you know, are pretty significant. You know, I think that at Colbert there's writers who have been there for since I interned there in 2008 who are still writing for him and Right. Michael Jamin:Interesting. Jesse McLaren:Yeah,Michael Jamin:So I mean, cuz you, I don't wanna,Jesse McLaren:I don't wanna name anyone as the old guy or something.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know.Jesse McLaren:That's cool. Definitely different. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But they've been around the block. You must get their stories. Hey, what was it like writing for Jack Benny? I mean, you must, you must want to get their, their stories out of them, right? You know?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah, there's writers who I, you know, didn't realize, you know, there'd be a sketch that I watched when I was 15, I thought was the funniest thing in the world. And you can find out that they, you know, my buddy wrote it and you're like, oh, that's so fucking cool. OrMichael Jamin:That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So your goal is basically that you want this to be your career forever until you're done?Jesse McLaren:Is that, yeah. I don't think it's sustainable, but it is. Like, I would just, you know, I'm just really love late night. It's like whyMichael Jamin:Do you think it's not sustainable though?Jesse McLaren:I, well, I just think it's tough. You know? I think it's so much of getting a job in late night is luck. No. So, and I'm a pessimist in general, so the fact that I've got this job, I was like, you know,Michael Jamin:But at this point you're proven. I mean, you've proven yourself. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I mean, I don't know. Right. You've, I imagine you've made contacts, you've proven yourself. If you were to start on another show tomorrow for a different post, you know I don't know. Like I I'm sure you'd be like, okay, I know how to do this job. Right?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I'm sure. Like, it's interesting, you know, we'll have a guest host on over the summer and it'll be like a really wide range of Right. Personalities. Like RuPaul David Spade, an actor who isn't an entertainer in that way, who, you know, just were kind of like a movie star. And it's like, you'll see some people, like, your jokes just do not,Michael Jamin:They don't how to deliver like Yeah,Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Not that now how to deliver it. They just don't pick your jokes. They just, your humor doesn't match up with them. And some of them are like people. You are your comedic heroes and you're just like, ah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jesse McLaren:So it's, it's, and I think it's, it is a little bit of a diced role too. Like if you you know, matching your writer with your hosts sensibilities and stuff, it's kind of like there's a tricky thing there. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of like just luck that goes into ending up at one of these jobs and having it really, really click.Michael Jamin:Well, what would you, what do you imagine is going on with the James Cordon writers? Like when, you know, cuz obviously they're all, they're outta work. What, what do you think is going through their minds? You know,Jesse McLaren:I don't know. I mean, I think everyone has a different, like writers are all so weird people. They all come from like, not everyone is like me, say like, I wanna do this forever. Like, some people are like, well, I'm gonna go back into this business. Some people are standups and they'll go do standups. Some peopleMichael Jamin:Do you think some people wanna go back into like, like a corporate or something? Like some regular business?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think I, I feel like I've seen writers, like, especially from when I was at Colbert so long ago, just like, you know, end up leaving and doing things like in other genres, right. Children's stuff. Like, or just, you know, just kind of like, not necessarily stay in comedy day, late nights, stay in writing even. Right. So, I don't know, I, I couldn't speak for the court and writers and I think there was a lot of people who yeah, like had to stand up and do other forms of of comedy that, you know,Michael Jamin:Do you have, like, do you have a process or do you have a way of looking at the world or opening your mind to think of funny things? You know, is there, what's, how do you pro do you approach any, I mean, I have my own thoughts, but I wanna know what your thoughts are.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I, I think I do things an analytically uhhuh or I, I, I, I write in the least funny way, you know? What does that mean? You know, when I, like when I first started at this job, I to have to, I've never had to like write 20 jokes in the morning, that kind of thing. And that, that was the main thing. I was like, I I'm not gonna be able to do it. I'm not gonna be able to do it.Michael Jamin:Mm.Jesse McLaren:And I would like literally write a post-it of like, ways to view possible, ways to get a joke out of a news story. Okay, I lost that post now. Like now I don't need that. But at that time I was like, cuz if I'm gonna need to write like three to four jokes out of just, and some news stories are just inherently not funny at all. Not only, you know, serious, but some of 'em are like, sometimes our topics for jokes will be the Dodgers are up in game two of the World Series and that's, you have to write jokes about that. And then the next night it's the Do Dodgers are up three in game three of the World Series and you have to write jokes about that. And it's like, howMichael Jamin:Do you go about doing that? What's, okay? So can you walk me through that? That sounds horrible. . Like, I don't know what's funny aboutJesse McLaren:That. Yeah, yeah. It's the thing. So it's just like, you have to think what cities are, what city are they playing? Also sports is my weakest area, right? It's like, what city are they playing? Okay la And you know, and you're just like, St. Louis, what can we make, you know, just whatever it is, whatever. If it's the NBA or wherever, like what are any associations between these two cities that someone, that there's some connection that you can make like, you know one celebrity who maybe lived in famously lived in just something, you know, and like, but something I maybe missed yesterday. You know, like it's tough. Yeah. Those are,Michael Jamin:I would think that's really tough. Like yeah, I, I might strike out on doing that. I really do. I really might. Like shit, I, I don't know. You're on your own, like, because I don't, you don't have a strong enough attitude or is it enough? Yeah, there's no, there's no attitude behind it. It's almost fact, you know? Yeah.Jesse McLaren:And if I have like two hours all my jo, most of my jokes will be in the last 10 minutes every time no matter what.Michael Jamin:Really?Jesse McLaren:That's, yeah.Michael Jamin:Do do. Where do you do? SoJesse McLaren:I think a lot ofMichael Jamin:Couch on the desk. Do you have a place you go?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I'll do it on the couch or yeah. When I first started I was doing coffee shops just to force myself to like be somewhere Uhhuh . I have like, you know, I have a d d too. It's like any, you know, I have to really focus and I have to really force myself to focus sometimes. Cause it's so easy to just say, I'm just gonna like look at my phone. Or do you know?Michael Jamin:Are you able to turn it off though? I imagine like on, on a Saturday or Sunday big news story, you go, oh shit, this, we know we're gonna be talking about this on Monday.Jesse McLaren:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Definitely. And do you start making notes or you're like, ah, I'm off the clockJesse McLaren:, I'll make notes for sure. But that's actually really helpful because you know, if something just pops into your head on a Saturday of a story that, you know, you'll be talking about Monday, right? Like, I I did it. I got, I got something I know is like gonna be really funny to pitch on Monday. Right? So it's actually a little bit of a relief. It's not like, oh, I can't stop thinking about work. It's like, oh, now I don't have to stress Sunday night or whatever. It's like I know that well I'm gonna go into Monday with something I think is, is strong.Michael Jamin:So for you it's almost like solving a puzzle Sounds like joke writing.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you have, do you do any other kinds of writing though?Jesse McLaren:Not much. You know, I do a little bit of like, just do, I've written like specs and stuff like that for fun to grow that muscle. Right. But really, it's mostly like joke writing and that is the, the main writing I do. And especially cuz you know, it is these, the job is a lot. It's demanding, you know, when the show is on, it's like, you know,Michael Jamin:And I noticed cuz you still post a on, on Twitter and TikTok a little. But has that fallen by the wayside for you? I mean, you're busy.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think a little bit for sure. Like one when the show is on on and you don't wanna tweet something that would've been Right. Funny on the show, you know? Right. that doesn't do anything for you. And, and to an extent, like, you know, Twitter was always my end goal was always working in, in comedy and working and getting paid to write jokes and Right. I've done that and, you know, so it's like, I doesn't really, you know, the more Twitter now is just more for fun or whatever, Uhhuh . But yeah. That's why, you know, when you ask how often you tweet, like back when I was really hungry for trying to get a late night job, I would be really, anytime I saw a news story, I would just try to get the funniest joke as early as I could.Michael Jamin:Right. You want Right. You wanna be first. Exactly. How do you, how do the, do you think the other writers mostly break in packets or unconventional ways?Jesse McLaren:I think all, all sorts of ways. I mean, everybody you know, it's like a, it's, I don't know who said this, but I, I I've heard, you know, someone describe a writer's room, especially in late night as like a superhero team where everyone has their own like superpower. You have some people who are just really good political writers and can be sat tired, really, if some people who are just really strong standups and can write like, you know, barbs and that kind of thing that are like, you know Right. Getting strong, like gross kind of jokes. And that's just, do youMichael Jamin:Feel your, what do you feel your specialty is?Jesse McLaren:I don't, I think, I think bits is what I always feel the most comfortable in. And, you know, that kind of thing of uhhuh doing something with video. And anything with's. Like, you know, if I see video, especially just having worked in TV for as long and that and that kind of thing, I just can know like, that footage of Biden doing this, we can add this toMichael Jamin:It. Right. So you think very greatJesse McLaren:Screen.Michael Jamin:You think very visually then what's the, what am I looking at? Not what am not, what am I listening to? What am I watching?Jesse McLaren:Right. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And over the years I've, you know, gotten more into the joke writing itself and you know, I really love writing jokes, but I think the strongest area for me is definitely this kind of visual things. ForMichael Jamin:Sure. Now what's your takeaway when you write something and it bombs, they pick it and it bombs .Jesse McLaren:Yeah. That's always, and that happens. It's, yeah, I don't know. I think that with our show, the good thing about it being fast paced is by the next day you don't remember.Michael Jamin:Right, right.Jesse McLaren:Just the way, like there's, I've never had something over the next day. I'm like, oh my God. You know? And I'm just like, okay, well that didn't go great. And then you, you just avoid doing whatever that did wrong. If you could figureMichael Jamin:Out, are you hugely embarrassed? To me, it's when I pitch something and it bombs to me, it's funny. I'm like, I just like, wow, guess I'm diluted. But I guess, but do you feel that way too? Or you just, oh my God, I'm I'm gonna be fired ?Jesse McLaren:No, I never think I'm gonna be fired. Cause in the end it's like, you know, like none of us knew if anything like the joke was picked, like we thought maybe it would work. So it's more, it feels like it's not just on you. Right. And nothing's ever like bombs to like, it's like people are like booing, you know?Michael Jamin:.Jesse McLaren:That's funny. You like when people boo. Cause that's at least, that's fun. But it's never just like dead silence. Especially in that kind of environment. But you do have things sometimes that just don't work great. For sure. Like, you just, and it's always just like, we just didn't have, you know, it's like, let's make a movie trailer for the new Guardians, the Galaxy, but we'll make it like, and it's just like, all right, that's not gonna look that great if we're gonna have it done in three hours. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right, right.Jesse McLaren:I think we could do it and just doesn't quite work. It is like, should have worked, but, you know, maybe it just, if it needed another hour love or, but who'sMichael Jamin:Doing, I mean, are you, do you have a producer that you generally work with? Because that would be the producer's job is to put something like that together, right?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I mean, as a writer you oversee that kind of stuff with directors and producers. Oh, okay. And it's always like, you know, you know, if something wasn't ready for error, you wouldn't air it. Like, if there's no Right, you know, you do make those determinations, sometimes you will say, Hey, you know what, we have an hour left on this. It's not gonna make it like, it's not worth, let's make, let's say this for tomorrow. Or just didn't work.Michael Jamin:Do you have advice for, for people trying to, who would either wanna break in or try to become good joke writers or what, you know, what are your, what advice, wisdom can you share?Jesse McLaren:I, you know, for me it's like, you know, this, the advice I got you know, when I was at Colbert, someone, they read my packet and that was a really nice thing that they did for their staff members. Mm-Hmm. If you're like a PA and you submit a packet, they at least read it and give you some feedback. One thing they said is they, they told me is find a way to get feedback. Do stand up, find a way where you're actually reading these jokes yourself, Uhhuh yourself. And, you know, for me, I think that, you know and I'm sure like any standup comedian would roll their eyes at this, but for me, that was Twitter because that is the place where I figured out I got reception. If a joke was really bad, if it was really funny, I would at least get some kind of like, okay, this is, this kind of joke is funnier.You know? And I think just forcing yourself to get some feedback finding yourself, whether that's performing live or some way on the internet like I did. Finding a way that you have to actually be accountable for your jokes. And it's not just throwing them out into a void. Mm-Hmm. . Because, you know, I think that's why when I wrote packets when I was a lot younger, I thought there was the funniest thing in the world. How could they not hire me? And I read it now and I'm like, yeah, of course they didn't hire me. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right.Jesse McLaren:This is really good,Michael Jamin:You know? Cause since you, you mentioned it, I I dunno if you heard of my, my first job, I worked with a guy named Marsh McCall, who was the head writer on Conan. I think that's season one. Have you heard of him?Jesse McLaren:Marsh? Michael Jamin:Well, he died a few years ago, but Oh,Jesse McLaren:Okay. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But he was the head writer. He was the head writer in Conan. He gave me some great advice for joke writing when I was on Just shoot me the first season. And he said, if everyone's going this way to get to the joke, go that way. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't try to, whatever path it looks like is the natural way to get the laugh, find somewhere else, because you're never gonna, everyone else is going that way. They'll be, they're gonna beat you. You gotta find your own path. Do you think that, do you think the same way?Jesse McLaren:No, I don't think that, I mean, I, I think that's good advice, but I think for someone as for someone like me, I wouldn't see that until after the fact. I would write jokes first and then when I edit it, you know, like, like I said, I think I've gotten better at editing. That's when I would maybe see that of like, I just know that this is a good joke.Michael Jamin:But, you know, well, let me see this though, because sometimes I, sometimes on social media, someone will say something and I'm like, oh, I got the perfect response. And then I'll scroll down the comments and I'll see, has anyone said this yet? Yeah. And if someone's already said it, I feel embarrassed for myself. At first I feel relieved that I didn't write it down and embarrassed that I, that I didn't do better than that. You know?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why Well, that's why I'd always be after. Yeah. And after a while you start to like, just know that that's gonna be that thing. Like something happens, you know, you already know before you look in the replies, everyone's already made this joke for sure.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right. And so you gotta Yeah. If, if it's that easy, don't do it. Find , but Yeah.Jesse McLaren:And, but sometimes it's like, it's just clearly it's that, it's that because it's the funniest joke and it's like, you know it's unavoidable almost sometimes. Right. You know, when, you know, I think about things like, things like, you know, the Rudy Giuliani landscape, four Seasons, landscaping things. Like, there was just some things that were like, you know everyone was making the same jokes, but you just kind of had to because it just kind of called for it.Michael Jamin:Right.Jesse McLaren:But yeah, for the most part, I think that I just try to, you know, I'll write eight jokes for something, six of which aren't even like, like, would be embarrassing if everyone even read it. It's just like trying to just get some kind of thought out. Right. And you have two and maybe one out of the two you're like, I think that's the strong point of view. That's something that no one else would've thought of orMichael Jamin:Right. So sometimes just you, you actually have to just write it down. Yeah. And move on to the next one and then edit yourself later just so that you can get to the joke. Right. Just so you can find it.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I'll do a lot of just vomit of like, like just write eight, just thoughts about this story. Right. Even if they're not, especially if they're not playing, just write anything you want. And then, you know, sometimes just that statement is the, is the joke or, you know, but yeah.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. Yeah. Jesse tell people, I wanna thank you so much for, for giving me all your time. I think I, this to me is so interesting. I, I'm fascinated by what you guys do. It's a world I know nothing about. So, but, but tell people how they can follow you or find you on, you know, social media if they wanna be. I think you're gonna get a bunch of new fans now.Jesse McLaren:Oh, well, yeah. I'm Nick, Jesse on Twitter. As long as we're still all on Twitter and yeah. And that's, you know, that's pretty much where I post most things. Do,Michael Jamin:Do you worry about that going? Yeah, as long as we're still on Twitter. I mean, do you worry about starting from scratch if we all decide to go to some other platform?Jesse McLaren:I did it first, but now at this point I'm just like, let's just do it. YouMichael Jamin:Think, why do you feel that way?Jesse McLaren:I don't know. Cause I think when we go to a new thing like Blue Sky, you start toing. Oh, the people I like find me and I find them, you know?Michael Jamin:But Are you on Blue Sky? Not yet. You I am,Jesse McLaren:I am on Blue Sky. You gotMichael Jamin:Preapproved because it's hard to get approved.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I shamelessly tweeted I does anyone have a Blue Sky code? See exactly what it, I don't know what my name is on it, but I think it's just Mick, Jesse on that too, by . Does anyone have a Blue Sky Code? And one person messaged me and was like, I do. And then I, I got on that way.Michael Jamin:And they gave you their code?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I, I just don't know how the invite codes work on Blue Sky. And like, I had, like, it says under your name, like in by code, then it says zero. And then like, after like a couple weeks now it says I have one. And I'm like, oh, I have one now. Wow. Like, I'm giving that to my wife or like, you know, whoever wanted one,Michael Jamin:Whoever wants one. But you're not, you're not really on it yet, or are you?Jesse McLaren:I, yeah, some, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But it's, it's pretty good. It's like the most closest. It's the closest to Twitter. I think I've, we've found.Michael Jamin:But you're not worried, I mean, you don't have nearly as many followers on Blue Sky as you do on Twitter,Jesse McLaren:Right? Yeah. But at the same time, it's like the Twitter followers. Like I have over a million followers and I feel like if you tweet something that's not funny, it still gets like 11 likes and that's it. You know, like it's kind ofMichael Jamin:Of what On, on, on Twitter you mean?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I think that like really theMichael Jamin:People have disappeared.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Or just that, that's just always the way it is. Like, it's like, I think it, the algorithm, the way it works just to like, it shows the tweet to like X amount of people, 10 people. If none of them engage with Right. People look at it or care, then it just doesn't show it to more people. Right. So I think, you know, I don't know. I think that, so it's just as long as you have a network of funny people and if that's what you wanna do comedy you have funny people that follow you and you follow them back. And then I think if you move to a new platform, you could still find a good audience to like, share funny things.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Right. Okay. Yeah. So again, you're making a case for getting out there, you know, making friends with people and, and getting close to the job you want. Yeah. Yeah.Jesse McLaren:Right. Yeah. And yeah, and, and working in TV really helped too. For sure. Yeah. Right. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Exactly. You started at the bottom. Good for you. I'm impressed, Jesse, you, you did it . Yeah,Jesse McLaren:You did it well. Yeah, it was nice meeting you on the picket line and it was a pleasure. I recognize you from TikTok cause I think you come up in my algorithm all the time. Cause I'm always looking at any kind of screenwriting or comedy things. So you'll pop up and I say, oh, I know that.Michael Jamin:That's great man. I want to thank you again so much for taking your time. It was a great talk. I really appreciate this. All rightJesse McLaren:Everyone. Yeah. Thank you for having me on.Michael Jamin:Thank you. Big round of applause for Jesse. Go follow him on TikTok or Twitter to anywhere. We'll see wherever, wherever he goes next. . Wherever it is. All right, buddy. Thank you so much. Great talk everyone. Until next week, keep following me. I post check out my newsletter, Michael jamon.com/watch list from, have my best my content sent to you. All right. Until next week keep writing. Thanks.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar.If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes.For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminWriter.You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane. Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, Michael Jamin interviews Writer/Producer Christy Stratton about her career in Hollywood. Christy Stratton has worked on shows like The Amanda Show, King of the Hill, Modern Family, and Bless The Harts.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistChristy Stratton's IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0833629/Transcripts Are Auto-GeneratedChristy Stratton:Story has become so unimportant, I'm guessing to, to buyers or something. I don't know why, but it is like, story was so important to us coming up and how much time you devoted to it, that it's surprising to me when, you know, people don't know it. I mean, again, it took me forever, but when it's so important and I feel like, um, it's kind of a lost art...Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin and you're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast. My co-host Phil is not here today. He's working on the back end of the course. He's making it better. That's what I'm told. But I'm here with my very special guest, Christy Stratton. She's a great friend and thank you Christy, thank you for joining the show. I'm hopChristy Stratton:You, I'm, so any, any chance I can get to, to have a chat with you is, is, um, it's exciting, really.Michael Jamin:Let tell you something, Christy, I'mChristy Stratton:This big star.Michael Jamin:My audience does not deserve you. You're too good for the peopleChristy Stratton:. Oh,Michael Jamin:But let me tell you, let me tell them, Let me give you a little intro. Let me give them an introduction so they know who you are. Okay? So, uh, TV writer and producer, uh, I'm gonna just run through some of your credits. I met you on King of the Hill. We were together for many years, but before that you did Hope and Faith. Remember that show? I remember it awkward. You were on a, you were on Awkward for, for a long time. Every Everyone's crazy but us, which was your own minute web series, right? Yes. Which you also directed. Correct. Uh, then Modern Family, we've both heard of that show. Bless the hearts. You've worked on that for, for quite a while. You also did Hope in Faith. You like chose, uh, you like No, you, I'm sorry. Raising Hope you like shows with the word hope in it.Christy Stratton:I, what can I say that is just, that's a theme that IMichael Jamin: and so I got many questions for you, but I know some of the answers. But these people listening, they don't know anything. So tell me, tell everyone how you've broke into the business.Christy Stratton:Oh, it's so, you know, it, it was such a, a backwards kind of way. I'm from Texas, right? And I went to college in Florida and I, I, the Universal Studios Orlando had just opened when I graduated from college. So like, that was Hollywood's me, that was showbiz, right? And so I worked as a pa and um, one of the PAs that I work with said, Oh, there's this thing called the DGA Trainee test. Do you know what this is?Michael Jamin:I didn't know what it is. Yeah,Christy Stratton:Well, what it is, is it's a test that they, I think they still have DGA trainees on, on sets, and they will put you, if you like, are selected. They put you on sets and that you can be a pa. So, which is, I didn't end up passing or getting, uh, to be a DGA trainee, but it brought me out here and I was kind of like, like, I, I really don't know what it is I want, but it's not, you know, in Orlando, Florida. So I,Michael Jamin:But you didn't know if you wanted to be a writer or director. You just wanted toChristy Stratton:Be, I couldn't even imagine being a writer. Like, I couldn't even, Ima I wouldn't even dream of doing anything like that. Never.Michael Jamin:But then what did you wanna do?Christy Stratton:Well, I just wanted to kind of work in entertainment. Well, that's the thing is like, I, when I got out here, I started working at a PR firm and I'm like, Okay, PR that's not what I'm, you know, that's not my, you know, nothing against that. But I just wasn't good at that. Right? And, um, and then I worked, oh gosh, I did a bunch of temp jobs, but then I got, uh, I heard about the Groundlings School and the Groundlings is an LA based comedy troupe and a lot of very famous Saturday Night Live people came from it. And they had a, uh, series of classes that you can take. And I wasn't terribly successful with that either, but it was like, Oh, I'm enjoying, um, writing. And, and, and so it took many years to get to that point. And I did not get through to the Groundlings, but I went to this other theater called Acme Comedy Theater. Right. And some of the people there, Brett Bear and David Fikel were there, Alex Boorstein, some people were there that were doing, that were writing scripts. And so I thought, well, I, I, I'll, I'll try that. And so I, then I wrote a couple different ones and I got into the Warner Brothers TV writers program.Michael Jamin:You did that. Wait, hold on. Slow down. Yes. Like, first of all this, no one was gonna want, no one wants to hear the answer to this, but me. But what part of town did you live in when you first came to la?Christy Stratton:Oh gosh. I li well, I li because I was a PA in Florida, one of the gals had already moved out here, so I kind of was her roommate in, uh, in Santa Monica. But then I lived in this tiny little room that I lived with somebody else in Sherman Oaks. Right. Shared the bath. I shared a bathroom with a cat, . And I can remember like walking in on the cat doing his business and being like, Oh, sorry, I'll come back, . It was really, um, and I didn't, for myself, it was just rough. And, and I, it, one of my biggest regrets, and I don't have many, is that I didn't take typing in, in high school. Right? Because you get all the top temp jobs if you can type fast. And I never could, but anywho. But yeah, I lived all over in just tiny. And then I lived in West Hollywood in a bachelor apartment that did not have a kitchen. It had, um, uh, uh, hot plate and a mini fridge. And so if I wanted to, WhatMichael Jamin:Street was this on West Hollywood? Cause I lived in West Hollywood too.Christy Stratton:On Melrose.Michael Jamin:What? Melrose and what?Christy Stratton:Oh God, you don't Melrose. Um, where Mellon Rose's is, Oh gosh. What is, Uh, Kings.Michael Jamin:Kings. Oh, okay. You're further west. Okay. Yeah.Christy Stratton:Yeah. Interesting. And I would use the toilet as my garbage disposal. Like, it was, it was really meager.Michael Jamin:You paid your dues. And then I didn't realize you were in the, Cause we were in the Water Brothers Spreaders program too. Oh, I didn't realize that. But what, I don't know what year we were in. I wonder if you were before or after us.Christy Stratton:I'm sure I was after.Michael Jamin:Do you , how dare you. How dare you imply OhChristy Stratton:No, But you were already a producer When I would say when I was aMichael Jamin:Did you, did you enjoy, did you enjoy it? Did you like,Christy Stratton:Um, I did because it was the first time if all the things I tried and I tried stand up, I tried, Oh my goodness. I tried everything and it was the only thing that I felt positive feedback coming back to me. And it was. And so I think all of those years of trying to do all those other things in comedy, trying to figure it out, um, helped. And, uh, and so I just, and I lucked out that I was one of the ones that was read at the end. So my first job interview as a writer was for friends, and I did not get it.Michael Jamin:Wow. Must have been a good script. And you ever wrote with anybody, you've never collaborated with anybody, Right?Christy Stratton:Consider that. You know, I, like I did, I did actually. In fact, it's funny, I'm about to go out with a pitch with a person that I used to write with. I did for a while. I wrote a couple with my friend Dave. But, um, but I, you know, I don't know that I found that other person that it, that, that it worked out. Cuz you have to have that kind of equal amount of work and your work ethic has to be the same. And you're, and, and I, I don't know, I guess I never found that, that person and that, cuz that would've been helpful. And I, you know, I love collaborating and, and that kind of stuffMichael Jamin:Now. So you got outta the Warner Brothers, but people don't know this. When you're in the Warner Brothers workshop and you graduate, especially, you were like, probably the top of the class. They try to set you up. They try to pimp you out to one of those shows at a discount rate. They probably about a third of what the Writer's Guild minimum is. But you're okay at that point. You're so desperate. You'll do it cuz whatever. Right? Yeah. And they, they got you meeting with friends, which is amazing. I'mChristy Stratton:At it. I did not get the job. Which, which honestly my learning curve was very, you know, slow and long. And I, I didn't have any, like, I knew what I thought was funny and I have a background that's very unique to a lot of people that are out here, but it took years for me. And so if I'd had gotten on that show, I don't, I don't know that I would've lasted. I mean it, like, it was the end. I mean, it was, I think it was the last season, but, Oh, okay. But I mean, it, I would've been grateful for the opportunity, but I don't know that I would've been, um, a lot of those lessons I had to learn. I'm glad I learned them. Um, on, on, I don't know, not so big a stage, I guess.Michael Jamin:Well, were you crushed when you didn't get it though?Christy Stratton:That's a good question. I was bummed.Michael Jamin:How could you not be?Christy Stratton:I was bummed, but I was a little bit relieved.Michael Jamin:And then at that point you had an agent, right?Christy Stratton:I had imagine going into the, going into thoseMichael Jamin:Program. That's pretty impressive that you got in any the, the program. I mean, it's hard to get in. Okay. So then what happened after they, you got submitted to other shows?Christy Stratton:So then, um, Yes, and I, that's when I got on Three Sisters and I, I was, I was useless. I cannot overstate,Michael Jamin:I never even heard of Three Sisters. What was that? I was aChristy Stratton:Wonderful show. Diane Cannon and, um, uh, AJ Langer Uhhuh and, um, Katherine Lea.Michael Jamin:And isChristy Stratton:It, And the gal who redhead that was played, um, Beth on News Radio. And I always forget her name. She did in Nty.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. I know who you. Right. And so,Christy Stratton:But I got on that show when I was, I was like, I say useless.Michael Jamin:People don't realize that. People don't realize this is all good cuz people don't realize that your first job, you're going to be useless. Most writers are gonna be useless. Did you recognize they were useless? Cuz sometimes young writers don't show, they don't realize they're useless and they talk anyway.Christy Stratton:They don't nowadays. It's that. But back then we, I was the only staff writer in the room. Now it's, it's all staff writers, Right? And like one senior person. Right. But back then it was very clear and the two story editors, they were like fed for yourself. I mean, and I can remember like, um, uh, pitching, it was finally my episode. I finally got an episode to write, and it was only in the back nine. And, uh, it was a disaster. It was awful. Right? And I, I wanted to punch, It was punch up time, but I wasn't very good at that. Like, now I love it and I have so much fun doing it, but back then, but I knew it at staying. So I, I pitched a joke that was like the, it, the punchline was like, it's good because of this and bad because of this.Christy Stratton:And the showrunner said, I don't get it. And I'm like, Oh, okay. And I tried to let it go, you know? Cause I wanted to try to see if I could get the room to kind of, you know, help me out here. Right? Um, and then she goes, No, no, no. Explain it to me. So I'm like, and then I like, as a tear rolls down. Yes. And I explain. And then she goes, Well that sounds like it's both good. And I just was like, Okay, you know, don't cry out loud. I'm just trying to just honestly like, hurt myself a little bit so I could my energies. But I, it, it wasn't because I was doing what I thought was good work and being unrecognized. It was, I didn't know what I was doing and no one helped me.Michael Jamin:. Yes. Yes. That's, it's such a, Okay. Cause I talk about that a lot. I, Okay, so then you, okay, you wereChristy Stratton:Then I lucked out sometimes because I've been, been doing this so long and I had been here so long up to that point, you know, people, so, like for instance, um, uh, when I needed a new agent, uh, my friend John Westfall, who I did a a Groundlings class with, said, Hey, there were, he's at Sony. There was some agents in my office and I recommended you. And so I got with them and um, by sheer luck one of the guys, David Shane, who is still like, I will never, he's paid me a kindness that I will never be able to repay. So three sisters was a nightmare. Then David Shane, this guy who was in the Warner Brothers program with me, uh, had a meeting with Greg Daniels because Greg's or Dave's brother was like roommates with, with Greg Daniels or something in college, I'm not sure. Right. But Greg testing him, said, uh, to David, uh, who was the best person in your, in your Warner Brother's thing, seeing if he would say himself. He, Cause he told me this later and he, and he went, and then he said me and then he is like, she's from Texas. Cause it was the king of the hill. It was was good. Yeah. And so then, uh, it turned into like, who was this girl? And so then I got a, a meeting with Greg because of David'sMichael Jamin:I's, see, that's nice. And so you fit in really what cuz King of the Hill obviously was took place in Texas. So they always were looking for more authenticity. They're looking for, they're always looking for writers from Texas. And so you jumped in, I think season six, Is that right?Christy Stratton:Or seven or seven? It was a, like, there were two other women, and I wanna say 15 men. Yeah. And I have to say everyone was so, uh, because I have been on stats where I've been treated very poorly. But it was all you guys, I mean, it wasn't like every, I just became the little sister. Like I became, and, and, and in a way that was, um, with kindness, but not inappropriate. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I felt like I was out, I was on my own for a while. Like, I'm just this in the sea. And I, I can remember pitching a little bit here and there, and I can remember you, uh, being very kind to me and telling me, um, that when pitching a joke, you know, don't go to that obvious place cuz everyone's gonna beat you. And you're right, I'm not fast. I'm not fast. And that you said, go to a place where no one else is gonna go. And so that is what I have done my whole career, because I am not that, and all you guys, all you guys could just do this so quickly and I can like, come up with ideas quickly. Like, ooh, what if this character, you know, is this or that the other thing. But I can't, the joke in forming it and having that punchline, you guys could allMichael Jamin:Do that. But, you know, Christy, that wasn't that advice. I struggled the same way I got that advice from Marsh McCall on just shoot me. So I was the same as you. I mean, we're all the same way. So Yeah.Christy Stratton:Yeah. But that was a really good place because that show had such great characters and everyone was super smart. Mm-hmm. , I got to kind of learn on the job in a way that, I mean, yes, I always felt like I was gonna be fired. And , I mean, I think I almost was at a point, but, but it was, I got to really learn from the best learn how to craft story because story was everything. And I don't know, I mean, you remember, we would spend weeks just freaking story and, um, that process and then you would kind of produce your episodes. Right. And that was really important to me at that time. And Garland Tesa, who I really learned a lot from. Yeah, great.Christy Stratton:The sea of, you know, Princeton Harbor, all of these people. And what I loved about Garland was she would, if someone made a reference to something that she didn't know, she would say, What does that mean? Or like, what, what, And I can remember like, Oh, that shows power when you admit to something you don't know. Right. And I, so I always did that. I always, Oh, I don't, what is that? Is that a And because I'm, it shows a lack of insecurity, I guess. Yes. And also there would be times when we would come back from an, an animatic and John Al Schuler would be like, Who, why did the an mades do this and that? And I knew it was because of something I said. And so I'd be like, Oh, sorry I, that was me. I thought that this would blah, blah, blah. And it would just a few, when you admit your mistakes, when you admit what you don't know, it diffuses things right away. It, to me is kind of a show of, of power, uh, in my opinion. And I love, that's good advice her because she was in the sea of, you know, all of these for a long time before, you know, I came along and, and whatnot. ButMichael Jamin:She would always go. And I tried to have, I, she would always go like almost into a panic when it was time for her to write her script. And I, I don't know what I'm doing in Mc Garland, You're probably the best writer here. . She's so good. But she, but she had this, she had some of these insecurities as wells. Like I got nothing. And she'd come up with some great line or great scene. Um, yeah.Christy Stratton:Real good character stuff. Yeah. It was a good, like, I really, I, it was just such a funny group and boy, some lines and that characters were great. And, and even though every year I was like, I'm not coming back. Right. I would come back and I'm so grateful because I learned so much.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And you were there for a long time. And then, and then what came, what? And then the show was canceled and then what happened? What did you do after that?Christy Stratton:Well, remember it went down in the middle and that's when I did Hope and Faith in New York. So, Oh, I, they staffed out of LA and, but then it shot in New York. And to be able to be paid to write in New York City and be, you know, on my own and, and live in Tribeca, that opportunity, I, I'm so grateful for. Cause I'll never forget, I went, I was, that was my biggest year in interviews. I went out for a boy a bunch. I went a a, a bunch and I got one offer and that was to move to New York City, and, and do that show. And I, I had the time in my life.Michael Jamin:That's another thing people don't realize cuz they say, you know, do I have to move to Hollywood to work in Hollywood? Because they, they mention shows like that, that I've shot in New York. And I always say, But all the staffing is done in la They hire the LA writers and they fly him out there.Christy Stratton:Yeah. You know? Yeah. Mark Driscoll was out of New York, but they already knew him. Like, in other words, it wasn't like they did any, they just knew he was out there. So they staffed him. But, uh, yeah, no, you gotta be, you're absolutely right.Michael Jamin:And then in between all this, you've saw a bunch of pilots and stuff.Christy Stratton:Yes. Yeah. I've done pilots. And you know what, you say something and you said something to me then I think, but you hit this on your, uh, stuff too. My mistake is that I always would come up with pilots based on the stories that I wanted to tell. Right. I have this very, um, difficult relationship with my mother, or ooh, I, um, have this interesting relationship with my husband or I, or I get so excited and I can usually get a producer and a studio excited as well. But once you get to that buyer, if they're not buying that kind of show, I mean, they're, you're just, you wasted your time. There was one time I, when I did my web that turned out to be my web series. I pitched it as a show with, um, David Janari and NBC U and we went to NBC and I mean, the laughs were so much that I had to hold for laughs, which that doesn't happen to me all the time.Christy Stratton:I'm not this person that can just go into a room and just make everyone go fall. But I didn't that day. And I had a meeting with one of the gals later, one of the execs that was in the room, and she's like, Oh, it was late and, or it was kind of late in the year. And so we didn't have a lot of, you know, money left over. And she goes, It was one of the three pitches I heard all season that made me cry laughing, but it didn't. Wow. In fact, they spent a million dollars on it, bewitched. That never happened. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So people don't realize that as well. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes about selling it at the right time of the year. If it's lit too late in the year, they're outta money. They've already bought something like it. There's a million reasons for them say no. You're getting them say yes is much harder. And,Christy Stratton:And honestly, all the passion in the world, all the connection in the world, all of that does not matter if it's not something that they are in the marketMichael Jamin:For. Well then, then how do you go about developing shows now?Christy Stratton:Gosh. Well, , I really haven't taken my own advice. Um, a friend came to me with an idea and I'm like, this is great. And I wanna to, I wanna get back to broadcast because having been, uh, you do streamer stuff. I mean, there was this thing that I supervised that we sold in October of 2019, and they only passed this past January or February because the streamers make you do a second script, then they do a mini room where at that great deal that you made right on your, they're not gonna pay you that. They're gonna pay you a minimum. And just the number of weeks that you're working, not the three months of prep you're doing mm-hmm. , you get throw dollars for that, then you know, they're gonna sit on that for six more months. Right. And then you'll decide. And um, so after that, and because I think broadcast, there's a lot of broadcast comedies that I am loving. And so I'm like, you know what?Michael Jamin:There aren't, there aren't a lot of broadcast comedies. There's just notChristy Stratton:Well, but there are more now that I love than there have been in years past. Okay.Michael Jamin:So what do you, what do you loving on what comedies you like and thenChristy Stratton:Broadcast? Oh my God, I love those. That ghosts, I love Abid Elementary. I loved pivoting my friend Liz Astro. Right. Uh, that show was great. And those shows just give me hope that like, oh, you know, you can do some really cool, fun stuff. Mm-hmm. , um, on broadcast. Cuz I'm, I'm done with like the, I just don't wanna cringe. I'm done cringing. You're done cringing. I wanna laugh. I wanna laugh. I wanna see, you know, relatable, interesting stories that are funny that I can just turn on and be like, Oh my gosh, this like, I, you know how when you really love a show, you can't tell what episodes are good or bad. Like you just love it. You wanna go into that world curb, I thought was, I know that's not broadcast, but I did love that this year. Um, uh, but I just, sometimes I just wanna, I just wanna laugh. I don't need to cringe anymore.Michael Jamin:Well, you're well time's running out for you to pitch network, uh, you know, isn't,Christy Stratton:We're going right in, we're literally meeting this guy who we're going right into the networks with no producer, no nothing. Because my agency got bought out by another agency. So now I'm with that agency and I switched managers because my other agent became a manager. So that all took some,Michael Jamin:And so they said, fine, we'll take it. Right. They, they managed, because sometimes you can't even do that. You pitch it right to this network, which is unusual. Are you going,Christy Stratton:I'm in a couple weeks. Yeah, we'll seeMichael Jamin:, because most of the time, and so how that usually works is if the network buys it and we don't, there's like no right way of doing this, the network will buy it and if they want it, then they'll dump it off the offload and onto their sister branch, whatever studio that they own or what, you know, they're affiliated with. I mean, I guess that's how, that's how you plan to do it. Uh, to me that makes more sense, but I don't know why. The other way, usually you pitch to a studio and then the studio pitches in the network. I dunno whyChristy Stratton:That is. Also, you gotta have that producer and all that takes so much time. And we were ready in July to start talking to people, but wow. We were told that like, oh no one's around in August, everyone is traveling. And I'm like, Ugh, okay. So then time just passed. And so once the dust settled and I'm, you know, with my agents and with my manager, they're like, You don't have time to, you know, or we did go to a couple producers and uh, uh, that were not interested.Michael Jamin:There were, Yeah, it's hard to even, it's hard to get. So as I say, it's the more pieces that you can put together. If you can get a producer attached then, or, and then then later a studio, you're walking in with more pieces. It helps to make, sell the show, but it's not necessary. But it can help sometimes , it depends where their deal is at.Christy Stratton:Uh, it's just kinda like, I'm gonna give this a go. This, I'm gonna give it a go. I'm gonna give it a go. And, and I actually have so many pieces of development that are just sitting waiting. Right. I have a script that, um, I have, there was a company called, um, Global Road that went bankrupt. So I wrote a script for them and now we've got the rights back and we actually have a piece of talent attached. But you know, now with a specs script, you've gotta have a director. You have to not just have the supporting actor but a lead actor. Like, you have to, you have to do everyone's job for them. So they're right. I have two pieces of, to fully written pilots sitting and waiting,Michael Jamin:Because usually it's very hard and Mark experience, it's very hard to get talent attached unless you're developing it for them. You know, like I, we've done it with comedians will develop show four comedian. But other than that, it's hard to get our experience hard. It's hard to get meaningful at talent attached, meaning talent that will move the needle. Some people say, Well, you know, my friend's, an actor doesn't, not your friend. We need someone famous . You know? Um, interesting. And so how, what is your day like even when you're not, what is your day? Like what narrowly when you're not on staff, what do you usually do? How, what's your writing schedule?Christy Stratton:Um, when, Well, I'll either work out or I'll get it. My, I do my puzzles. I do all my puzzles. I do like six puzzles.Michael Jamin:Like your, like crossword puzzles?Christy Stratton:Yeah. Well, I do crossword, I do the, I do the letter box. I do the wordle, I do the portal.Michael Jamin:What about word jumble? Are you good at the word jumble? You know, the kind that you find at the menus that like the ground round. Can you do that?Christy Stratton:? No.Michael Jamin:, you know, hot dog and you others hot dog. I found itChristy Stratton:. But I will do anything to delay it, to delay writing. But I, I, there's, I'm never, there's never not, there's never a time where I'm not working on something. Even the, even the specs that I are ready that have a, like, I have one that's got a director attaching two producers. I'm not done. Like I will look at it again or I will Ooh. Right. In fact, I got, I was inspired because of one of your things. You said something, it was about a moment landing. Right. And there was a moment in my, one of my scripts that I'm like, Oh, that I just kind of glossed over that. And so I took a minute and I figured out how to make it land. And then I'm like, Hey, you know, here's the new draft of this. Um, but I, so I will, I will then try to have some time to myself and um, and I'm kind of like, I'll write a little bit and if I've come up up with something good, I'll reward myself by like doing some, you know, web surfing.Christy Stratton:I don't like, I'm not this person that says I'm gonna work from this time to this time. I'm the best when I'm like doing something else. And then, ooh, that's how I sold that problem. Right, right. You're not thinking about it. I'll do a I'll, I'll have a project and I'll like a painting or something. Not, not like a painting, but like painting a wall. And I will be like, Ooh, this is how I can, you know, I can solve that. Now sometimes it's like, what am I, I have a 13 year old. So like, okay, what a, what are we gonna do for dinner? Cuz my husband bless his heart, does the football, the baseball, all of that.Michael Jamin:He's useless in the kitchen.Christy Stratton:, he's really not. Oh, ok. He's great. But, but meaning like, you know, I will, there's a lot of those things that fill my day too. And, but I'm not this person that just sits right and works. I just, I, I'm just notMichael Jamin:Now I'm, I'm jumping around, but then I'm gonna sound like an old foy, but how do you feel like writer's rooms have changed since you first got broken?Christy Stratton:Oh, well, they've changed a lot. A lot. I will say. I think it's good that like, when I came in as like either the only woman or the only low level writer, it took me a long time to do, get, do anything. Whereas nowadays, because they have, they come in with a lot more confidence. Um, I find and, and, and not, I'm not saying that, oh, everyone just is so confident. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I feel like people can get it quicker because they're more of them and they have more support with between each other. Do youMichael Jamin:Think they get it quicker? Cause I'm not, that's not how I see it. I see it, it is really, they haven't gotten it quicker, but they're just talking anyway, , because there's so much to, they have to learn. You know, It takes so much to learn. Like the first, even my, all of our careers, the first couple years, like you're saying, you're kind of useless and you're, it's not that people are shutting you up. It's, it's more, it's more like you don't know how to contribute.Christy Stratton:No. no. And, and bec it's very interesting too, as you know, there's a lot that, like, I never had anyone, my God, how do I say this? And there's a lot that you can't say. And I don't wanna, I don't wanna be, you know, it's just, you have to kind of make it used to be writer's rooms. You could say anything, have any kind of discussion. Mm-hmm. have any kind of, uh, uh, thing. And you can't really do that anymore. And, and for some good, good reasons and some, you know, I, I'm not, I'm not trying to, I mean, I'm glad that people aren't treated poorly anymore. I think that is, you know, um, I'm trying to get out sun here. Uh, that's good. Um, that, so that is a little bit, and you're, you know, I worked for someone recently, a dear friend who, cuz you gotta watch what you say because what if someone takes it the wrong way and, you know, puts it on Twitter.Christy Stratton:So, um, that's different. You know, that's different for better or for worse. And I'm not, I, I don't wanna, but Right. That's certainly different. Like there was a code, uh, in the writer's room. There was a code that you kept it, you, you kept everything in there unless you were, you know, sharing something with your spouse, . But, um, yeah. So that's, that's, yeah. Certainly different. And story has become so unimportant, I'm guessing to, to buyers or something. I don't know why, but it is like, story was so important to us coming up. And how much time you devoted to it? That it's surprising to me when, you know, people don't know it. I mean, again, it took me forever, but when it's so important and I feel like, um, it's kind of a lost heart . And I, I don't know. I don't know. So I, I, and it's, yeah.Michael Jamin:So as a senior writer in the room, you're based, you feel like you're carrying a lot of the weight.Christy Stratton:Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Sorry, I'm leaning down here. Um, and Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and then look. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So what would you tell, what would you tell new writers or aspiring writers? What kind of advice would you give them?Christy Stratton:Gosh. Watch a lot of tv. Watch a lot of tv. Watch it kind of, um, like what I do with my son is I'll be like, Ooh, is this the, is this the midpoint? And I'll, I'll pause it. Or I'll be like, well, like if we're watching a movie, like, do you think that's an always lost? Do you think that's right? Like, just to, just to, I mean, not that I don't know that he would ever wanna be a writer, but just to kind of get into the rhythms because it's just, it's rhythm and surprise and, and it's just so hard because it's like, it's all trial and error. It's so all trial and error. And, and I would say to young writers just to, to write and, and see what sticks. Do your funny tweets stick? Do you know the, the essays you write, Does that stick? Just like, where, what is sticking?Michael Jamin:And, and how do you feel people are breaking in today?Christy Stratton:I really don't know. That's a good question. Cause I'm thinking of like, who are the young writers that we had on the flats? Which was that, which was the, um, the show that didn't go forward? Um, we, I, one came from my manager. We, it would come from friends. Mm-hmm. . Um, I'm trying to think if, if there's anyone that completely we didn't know. And that was maybe at the upper levels because then you read the little blurb. And I, you know, I wouldn't, especially with the younger writers, I don't read past 10 pages. Mm-hmm. , why not? Because they're terrible. Right? I'm sorry. Right. Young writers cannot write pilots. Don't put someone on the toilet on page one. Don't have anyone having sex in that first 10 pages. I will. I'm done. That's not to me, um, people talking in a coffee shop, it's, if it's about dating, I'm like, But this one young writer, uh, who I knew, which is, that's how she came to us, But it was like a comedy about, um, like a Titanic, like Ship Captain Uhhuh.Christy Stratton:But he was inept and it was told back in that time. And of course I read somebody, I'm like, Yes. Like, this person is funny. And you'd think, and I don't know how you are, but I, I always thought that, Oh, I wanna see if they can, if it's a high school show, you know, I want a high school sample, but I just want funny and good ideas. And the, the, the story editor we hired, would you, uh, uh, had on your staff Chandra Chandra? Yeah. Yes. Her first pages, I don't know if you read, but her first pages were a woman giving birth. Okay. And it's going through like, oh, it's, it's very dramatic. And then the baby drops on the floor. What? Or something like that. You realize that they, she's an actress and she is helping out at a, um, at a hospital where they pretend to have these procedures and that's her job.Christy Stratton:And I'm like, that, that was enough for me to give her meaning, because I thought that's a fun surprise. I did not expect it. It was different. Uh, you know, it looked that she could put a script together, you know, And, uh, and so that, that, But I won't reest 10 pages cuz they're not good. But here's what I wanna say to young writers. Yeah. It, everyone is not good. No one comes out good out of the gate. No one, I mean, I don't wanna say no one, but I, I I, I just be, don't be so don't be hard on yourself. Know it. And just keep writing. Cuz every time you do something, you will get better. I look back even on the stuff I did four or five years ago, and I'm like, Oh, I, you know, I, I, because you're the farther up you go and the more you have to lead people and get things out of them Yeah.Christy Stratton:That you just get better and faster. And I will say, like, I, it's very hard when someone pitched, like, I'm trying to be the person who entertains every pitch. But when, you know, because of your experience where that pitch is gonna end, uh, like in other words, you can see mm-hmm. because your experience and, but you don't wanna cut that person off. So I'll just, you know, I'll try to follow things down and like, and then once it gets there, then we move. So , I dunno, that was apo of nothing, but, um, uh, uh, yeah, I would say for young people, just put, get a camera out, shoot stuff. Doing my web series, um mm-hmm. Imy nominated and what be nominated web series than I shot. Mm-hmm. . Um, it, it, I learned a lot. You learn about how, like, I wanna be quick because I don't wanna take people's time on the internet.Christy Stratton:So how do I make these turns? How do I do that quickly? How do I, um, I it still needs an ending here. How do I do that? And you have whatever, five minutes or less, Right? Um, but I would just tell young writers to listen to people like you, like keep listening and learning and getting, you know, and have people read your scripts. Not, you know, I mean, your friends, have them read it, see what works, see what doesn't, and then just keep doing it and keep finding things that inspire you. Because even though, like I say, I complain that , like I'm never, it's never the thing that they want when I wanna give it to them. That said, I've worked pretty steadily for 20 years, Right? And that is because I do write things that are my story and I know how to, I know how to craft and I can do all that. And they, people can read a sample or, you know, uh, uh, oh, can you attach to, to do the, you know, supervise this, blah, blah, blah. So it, it's benefited me in some ways that I do that. However, I certainly would love to have that magic thing that says, Oh, hey, this is what Fox wants this week.Michael Jamin:That, that's one thing I say to young writers is like, they all like, how do I sell my show? And I'm like, learn how to write first. But everyone wants to skip that step. I mean, I'm not crazy. Right? You feel the same way?Christy Stratton:Well, I think once, um, like Lena Dunham did it, you know, people are like, I can be that. I can be that, that Wonder kin. Um, but yeah, I think that's never, I mean, you can do that, but then you don't have the skills that the other end of that. Um, you know, But, but I, I mean, more power to you nowadays. They put you with somebody like me and you right. To clean it up. Although I won't do it anymore unless I co-owned. Like, I won't do, I won't do that anymore.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to, for free, join my watch list every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamen.com/watchlist. All right. So Chris, you were talking about supervising projects from, from new writers. So please go tell us about that.Christy Stratton:Right. Or writers that, that need, you know, some kind of supervision. Um, one, I supervised a book author. Sorry, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get out the sun. . All right, here we go. Um, a book author who, uh, is a writer but has, you know, not experienced in, um, writing for television. And that one was a true supervising. Like, she wrote the script. She was very clear who all the characters were because they were in her book. And I also supervised a young writer for an animated project.Michael Jamin:And so you were attached basically as a show runner, right? And I just wanna make sure people understand. So that means you're basically, you're supervisor, you're kind of giving notes, you're not really doing the work, and you're not getting paid a lot of money for this.Christy Stratton:No, no, no, no.Michael Jamin:Right.Christy Stratton:And then I was,Michael Jamin:Oh, but let, lemme continue. The only reason you're doing it is if the show goes to series, then you're attached as the show runner toChristy Stratton:Be the boss'. Someone who has tried to do that for many years. Um, it was, you know, of course I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna make that gamble. And that went so well. And I, and I get sent, especially with, uh, 20th animation, they'll send me stuff all the time. But usually it's, I don't spark to it. And I did spark to, uh, this one project, and, uh, it was a really funny, I mean, I, this is no disrespect to the young writer. The idea was terrific. Uh, the, the world. It was all great. So I just wanna say like that. However, when you are, um, you know, when you are new at it, you don't know like, all right, what do I need to put in a pitch? Well, here's, you know, you need to, nowadays you have to put that pilot story. Well, you know, and it's animated, so okay.Christy Stratton:It needs to have things that are visual. And so it was a lot of, uh, uh, and like I say, thank goodness she had a, a very clear voice. So this is, you know, like I say, but it was a, it was a lot. And then I had to kind of help her break that second script. And I got $0 for that zero us. Right. And, um, and then of course it was great to be able to, you know, run a room and see this great wonderful show come to life. And so I, I wanna say that I was so proud and, uh, I loved the stuff that we all did together, but at the end of it, I am, I'm not even like, I'm not, I have no piece of it. I have no, if they could shop that someplace else mm-hmm. , and if they wanted to, I, you know, I would be no part of it. If, if so they so desired. So I'm kind of like, I'm, I will do this. I will put in this work, but I will not do it without, I'm coming. I'm, I'm co-owning this with you. Right. You get, you get me, but I also get, you know, because I come up with ideas like, I like my ideas, but if I, if I'm gonna like your idea and I'm gonna sink into that idea, you're gonna have to,Michael Jamin:You know. Yeah. And people don't realize that because it's, I, we hear all the time, people, well, people say to me, I, I, you know, the studio loves my idea. I just need to get a showrunner attached. I'm like, if they love the idea, they would get a showrunner attached and they, they put up some money. But there's not, people don't understand the, the, the economics of it. It's really not, it's hard to make in the showrunners interest to invest all this time and money. Cause we don't get the money until it's, until it goes to the air. And so, you know, you're just, you're just assumed work on your own project. Why are you gonna take a risk on something, put all six months or a year's worth of work on something and not make money from it? Yeah. And so thisChristy Stratton:Years,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Uh, that's, so that's, people don't qu I'm surprised they, you don't get something. Some, I mean, I don'tChristy Stratton:Know. Oh, I got, I got it. Like, not the second script. The second script was I did for free. I mean, I didn't do it. She wrote it, but I mean, you know, with a guiding hand.Michael Jamin:Right.Christy Stratton:But that we did six episodes and I was just paid that a weekly rate for whatever, that 10 to 12 weeks. But we ripped for three months.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was for the mini room thing. Yeah.Christy Stratton:It's a mini room thing, which I hope we can, you know, this negotiation is gonna be real interesting.Michael Jamin:Uh, yeah. That's kind of the latest ex people don't know. I don't talk about mini rooms a lot because I don't have much experience in it. But why don't you tell everyone Oh, okay. What a mini room is.Christy Stratton:See, what it is, is you are writing the entire, uh, season. So it, it, once the mini room is orderedMichael Jamin:Well, but back up. Right? So you just sold your pitch to the network. The network says, We like this. Go on. Right?Christy Stratton:Okay. Oh, okay. So that was, let's say October, 2019. They, uh, and we got two offers, and that's why we got to do it. Writer guilded, which that's a whole other thing. Animation and writer guild, which we'd love to talk to you about. Yeah. But then, um, uh, so the script is written and turned in months, you know, whateverMichael Jamin:February, the pilot script, Right. Pilot script and the, and you got paid the person, that writer got paid to write a pilot script. Right.Christy Stratton:Okay. Um, then they say, Oh, we want a second script to just see if we like it. Now, the way, um, I'm gonna try to explain it as best I can. So with streamers, if it's not picked up, there is a, a lesser rate. You know how like a a half hour, uh, plays like $27,000, something like that. Right? But if your show is under a certain budget in the, uh, um, streaming sphere, then you don't have to pay that. You can pay this rate that's less than that. Well, of course our budget's less than that because we're not picked up. So all the scripts were paid this, this break that I didn't even know because I wrote the last script. I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's something's wrong with my, they've sent me not enough money. Yeah. Ok. That's for the second script. The supervisor gets no dollars.Christy Stratton:Now, I, that was during the agency action, so I don't know if my agents could have done like, I don't know what would've happened. Right. And I, believe me, I would've loved to have taken a, you know, cos story by or whatever. But you live and learn. You don't know until you're in it. You just dunno. Right. So, um, I did that for free and that took us to the summertime of 2020. Then the summer of 2020, Oh no, no, I'm sorry. They picked up that in the summer of 2020. We turned it in near the end of 2020. Then in May of 2021, they say, We wanna keep you guys working. We love this. We wanna give you a pre green light room. So then you're like, Okay, what, what? Because I didn't know either. And they wanted six more scripts to have a total of eight scripts so they can look at the whole seasonMichael Jamin:Before they decide to actually produce the show.Christy Stratton:Correct. Right.Michael Jamin:And because of that, they're just paying for scripts. And so most writers also have, most writers get paid a writing fee and on top of that, a producing fee, because we're Right, we do both. Right. But if there's, because we're not producing the show, they say, No, we're just gonna give you your writing fee.Christy Stratton:Well, not, it was a weekly minute, like writers go weekly, like minimum, maybe with a little bit more on it.Michael Jamin:Right.Christy Stratton:But they said, um, but they made this deal like, Oh, if we don't pick it up by this point, then all of that is fresh cash. Like, they try to make it real.Michael Jamin:Um, but the truth is, you're doing the same amount of work that you would do on an ordinary show that's getting produced, uh, in pre-production, but you're getting paid a fraction. Uh, it's, it's just, it's kind of like an accounting trick they do to keep the costChristy Stratton:Down. Yeah. I mean, so I, so we then, um, put a staff together and we had a long time, longer than I needed, but that's just what they wanted. And well, luckily we got all these wonderful people and it was, so was Zoom, which I hope I never have to do again if I'm being really honest. Um, and um, uh, so we would just, you know, like we knew where we, so we just would break story. And like we were a staff. I tried to do a second room cuz I love small rooms. I think it is just so much better for everyone when you do small rooms.Michael Jamin:But you did, you have an ex but you didn't have anybody who's experienced in your staff, didChristy Stratton:You? Um, yeah. Yes, some, but, but it was kinda like, and I learned this, like, I know what I want when I send people, Okay. Think of story ideas. Let's just say I know what I submitted. Like for Bless the Hearts, I would submit to Emily Spy who ran that show. I would submit to her like, here's an idea. They, there's the president's physical fitness test that Violet has to take. And then I would do a possible, um, like scenario on where that leads to like a paragraph mm-hmm. . Um, but because these writers that I hired who I thought were wonderful, all had so many ideas. So this was, this is an embarrassment of riches. This is not any sort of a a a dis but it would just be just ideas and ideas and ideas and ideas. And so I, you know, it's hard to kind of explain, well, this is what I want, and then I'm like, do I sound like I'm an, you know, um, a bad person?Christy Stratton:But, but, um, so you, you, it just takes time to get in a groove and when you have 10 weeks. Yeah. Like, they're not gonna know what, how, what, how to present it and how, how to curate which ones that we're both gonna like, Cause they're dealing with two people now. Right. They're not just dealing with me and I get to ultimately decide, Oh no, um, it's, it's, you know, her show and I am there to kind of facilitate and help and do what I can. Um, uh, so we ended up not doing that as, as much as, and, and we did would send off a, uh, hey, write this scene and it would come back wonderful. Right. Um, but um, then at the end of it, you send it off and they were like, Oh, which three do you want people to? Were like, Well, you know, I let her decide that. And she kind of got the last, you know, um, go through of whatever she wanted. And then was October. And thank goodness I had another show to jump on. And then they didn't, they didn't pass us until like the following January. Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's how it goes.Christy Stratton:Yeah. And, and we thought because we had such, our, our execs were so enthusiastic and so great and, and we were sure that it was gonna go. But what was so interesting was because all of that time it took to do that, which was, you know, however, two years, um, their, they were noticing it cause it was Amazon. They were noticing that the animation that was doing well for them was more genre animation. Mm-hmm. . So they're like, Well, you're gonna see we're gonna pick up a comedy, but, but you know, after that it's just gonna be genre. So it was just kind of like, ugh. Cause we did this beautiful, you know, funny, wonderful thing andMichael Jamin:Right. So you're also at the whim of whatever's wor whatever hits what working they're gonna wanna copy. And if, if whatever's not working, you're fo that's, if you're like that, you're, you're kind of screwed. And, and what people would also don't realize is that the executives overseeing your show, they're always very enthusiastic, but they're usually not the decision maker. the boss. The boss has a different opinion. And so they always tell you they're that, Oh, we're so excited about this show. We're all talking about this show. Like, who's we just the people who are on that level. But you know, the, so that's another, that's another obstacle.Christy Stratton:And the comedy they did pick up was like Natasha Leone and, uh, Maya Rudolph, they're producing it. They're starring in it. And it's like, we can't compete with that, even though I think on the page, who knows? But Right. That was just like, Oh god. Yeah. You know,Michael Jamin:It's a hard business. Yeah. And so what, what is next for you? What is next for you? What do you, you know, other than this pitch pitchingChristy Stratton:This thing, I'm pitching, uh, this ridiculous thing, then I've got these two scripts I'm sitting on. One has a director and, and two producers attached. The other one has a, uh, uh, piece of, uh, acting talent attached that we're, we're just looking and waiting because people don't want to, you know, there, it's a weird buying time. But at the same time, something else that sucks about the streamers is because there's only eight episodes, Mindy Kaling can do every single show made because only doing eight episodes, you can do four shows a year. Yeah, right. Do all the shows. Right. And, and because these buyers, whatever is going on, they just wanna, they want the big people. They want and they, and which, whatever. I get it. It's hard to have a hit. It's hard. So you wanna bank on those same people and guess what?Christy Stratton:Those same people will be available because they're only doing eight episodes of this show. Right. So anyway, so I'm sitting on these two waiting for, um, uh, we're trying to get a director with a one I wrote a screenplay and, um, my new manage, oh, it's now, um, to an actress. Um, because we tried to go to producers, but that didn't work. Comedies in movies, it's just hard. It's mm-hmm. hard. And I'm like, I, I, I just love comedy. I, that's what I do. That's what I, I wish I could write a procedural or a drama. And those are all valid and great things. I can't do that , I can't do that. I can't write, um, murder, comedy murders, like I can't, or a, a like a, um, mystery, the comedy mystery. And I'm like, Great. I think that's cool as hell. And when I see it, I get into it. I love it, but I like a straight up comedy and I, I'm like, and it doesn't cost that much, but yet, anyway, so I've got those things. Mm-hmm. and, you know, and then I'll, I'll, So I'm, it's a little bit of kind of waiting and then, and then trying to see, there's staffing opportunities that, um, that come up. And cuz I know people, so it's like, well, what are their needs? AndMichael Jamin:Interesting,Christy Stratton:Like, I love, I love being on a staff. I love that whole thing. I, I just hope it's not on,Michael Jamin:On Zoom, if you can get those jobs. Yeah. Christie Stratton, I wanted we're, we're pretty much at the end of our time here, but thank you. I, this was a, a very interesting talk. I really, I, I've enjoyed this. I definitely Oh good. I definitely enjoy this. So, uh, is there anything else you wanna tell people who are listening? Is there anything you wanna, one last parting thing, Should they follow you somewhere especially?Christy Stratton:Oh, yeah. Well, I'm on Twitter and, but I don't tweet a lot, but I'm on Instagram at Christy Stratton, but I'm on, I'm Christy s man on Twitter for whatever reason. But here's another thing. Young writers. Yeah, new writers. It's a tough time coming outta Covid with all the shakeups at all, the, you know, all the streamers and everyone, It is a weirdest hail time right now anyway, so just keep doing your things. Keep whatever little creative outlet that you can do. And with the internet, my gosh, you can do anything. Yeah. And just keep doing that because it's, it's a hard time because of all that, but because these staff, and there's not any money, there's more low level writers than there are upper level mm-hmm. , which wasn't how, when we came up. So that's a good thing. And, and you know, if you're good and someone's gonna, you're gonna get someone's attention and then they, they'll know somebody and then they know somebody. And all the time, like, I still, uh, uh, have friends that I met 20 years ago with the Groundlings or whatever, and then that will, they'll point me in the right direction for something. Or, you know, Oh, guess what? This person I did a pilot for, Right? It's now the head of 20th television or whatever. You just, it just take all of that takes time.Michael Jamin:Right. But you gotta be good. This is what I heard, but you just said you have to be good and it really helps to be in LA because this is where the fish swim.Christy Stratton:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But you don't have to be good right away.Michael Jamin:Right. You don't have to be good right away, but you have to workChristy Stratton:On Yes. You have to, As long as every year you can be like, Okay, here's how I've improved this year. Here's how I've moved forward. Just even a little bit, Right? Like, but, and oh, one more thing. Yeah. Oh my God, this is probably the most important thing of all these two hours we've been talking. Be flexible. Take notes. Don't, don't be like, Well, this is what this guy says. Or, Oh, well this is what I, I put that in there because B, B B, B B, if someone's gonna take time to read your script, I don't care if it's, I don't care who it is, and it's the hardest thing, and I still do it. When my husband reads my stuff, I'll be like, Well, that's why I, I'll bark at him. Right. But don't just thank you. Oh, I'll, I'll think that. And someone may give you notes that completely up in your script and just, you kind of put it away, Have a glass of wine, watch British baking, let it kind of meld in whatever. And then like, Okay, is this person that took this advice or whatever, do, will this change it in a good way? Am I ready to do that? But, but while you're getting notes to be nothing but great. Yes. No, I think that's a great idea. Or, Oh, just be flexible. BeMichael Jamin:OpenChristy Stratton:Notes. Be open, because it, you don't, you're not gonna be the, you're not the ultimate. You don't know everything. And it's so hard. Cause when I get notes, I'll be like, Oh yeah, that is better than what I have. Like, Oh yeah. That is even now's and gracious about it.Michael Jamin:Christy Strat, thank you so much for, for joining us and for people listening. Thank you. Until next week, uh, get on my newsletter. My free newsletter goes every Friday. Phil sends it out. Sign up, go to michael jamin.com/watch list for more tips. And thank you again, Chris. You'll follow her on Instagram and Twitter everywhere you could find, uh, Christy Stratton's. Were sold. All right. Thanks again everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamon. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear it. Today's subject for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Michael Jamin, writer. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at Phil Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, we have our first Podcast guest, Writer/Director Rob Cohen. Rob has written and directed for shows like The Simpsons, Wonder Years, The Ben Stiller Show, MAD TV, SNL, Just Shoot Me, Maron, Big Bang Theory & Black-ish. Join Michael Jamin and Rob Cohen as they discuss their careers, breaking in, and what it means to have a long, fruitful career in Hollywood.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistRob Cohen on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0169712/Transcripts are Auto-GeneratedRob Cohen:Just shoot Me was in the nineties. And if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good, and some were terrible. But now, if you look at NBC, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?Michael Jamin:Yeah, maybe. Yeah.Rob Cohen:Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old-timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.Michael Jamin:Right. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My name is Michael Jamin and Phil is not here with us today, but I have a special guest. This is our first time ever having a guest on, on our podcast. And I'm absolutely thrilled that it's, you know, in Hollywood. People say this is my good friend, My, but it's true. Rob, you're my good friend and thank you.Rob Cohen:You're my goodMichael Jamin:Friend. Yeah. . And so it's nice to actually have a good friend kick off my guest on the show. So let me introduce you. This is Rob Cohen, Writer, Director, and I'm gonna scroll through some of your credits so people know who you are. And and I'm sorry, I'm, I'm only gonna do some of the highlights that I think I'm gonna leave out. Probably the someone's I, because you had, Rob has a huge resume and you're a writer and a director, but you started andRob Cohen:Some of it is good.Michael Jamin:And for, for those of you wanna make a, a visualization. Rob also worked on one of your early jobs was The Simpsons and the character of Millhouse was Rob modeled after him. So Rob is picture Millhouse now older and sadder. So, and also Rob's Canadian. So I wanna talk about how a Canadian breaks into the business. Sure. The whole language barrier, how you learned English. Right. I wanna learn how weRob Cohen:Figured out Yeah. How the machines work so we could Yeah.Michael Jamin:I know you drove a dog sled growing up and now, now you drive a car. So stuff like that. Thank you.Rob Cohen:Thank YouMichael Jamin:Thank you. So let's begin. Rob's, I guess your first staff job, I guess was the Naked Truth, your big one?Rob Cohen:No, my very first staff job full time was the Ben Stiller show.Michael Jamin:Oh, right. Will you go back even further than that? Bend Stiller. Right. And you also did Mad tv. Hold on. Your credits are crazy good. Like you have a huge list of credits. Naked Truth work with me, I met you on, well I think I knew you before that, but just shoot me work. You work together, right? Bet, bet. Midler show. Yes. According to Jim. Mm-Hmm. , according to your credits, you are on, According to Jim. Right. the Jamie Kennedy experiment. Was that a show or an experiment? Rob?Rob Cohen:That was an experiment. That became a show on the wv.Michael Jamin:See Dots? I don't know what that is. It'sRob Cohen:A amazing, That was a pilot for nbc. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Oh, Pilot. How did you get that in there? Father of the Pride? You remember that, that animated show American Dad? I've heard of that one. Yep. Big Bang Theory. Heard of that one. Mm-Hmm. , 20 Good Years. Mm-Hmm. , our friend Marsh McCall created that show. Mm-Hmm. Emily's reasons why not. Mm-Hmm. fascinating.Rob Cohen:You're really combing through all theMichael Jamin:I'm on IMDB.Rob Cohen:Yeah, of course.Michael Jamin:There's more Life In Times of Tim, which was a riot that, that animated show Maron, which we brought you back. We hired you to be a writer and director on that. We're gonna talk about that. Yeah, sure. Lady Dynamite with our friend Pam Brady. Mm-Hmm. I don't know companies. I don't, I don't know. So I'm skipping over the, But you also have your own show called Hanging with Dr. Z. We're gonna talk about that. And then, But directing credits are also crazy. I mean, really I'm all them. Well, well you're, you're, you're good looking. Thanks. Let's go over some of them. Sure. Obviously you did a, you did a bunch of Marons. Yeah. Mystery Science Theater, 3000. You did some Lady Dynamites. Yeah. You did Blackish. Mm-Hmm. Stand Against Evil, Speechless. Bless this Mess. Superstore, you directed mm-hmm. The Goldbergs, you directed. Mm-Hmm. Interesting. told that Mo You are, And then most recently, somebody somewhere, which I, I talk about that a lot cause I love the pilot of that. And I just love that show. You directed five episodes of thatRob Cohen:Damn right. Seven,Michael Jamin:Seven. We have to update your IMDB. Yeah,Rob Cohen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Let's start at the beginning. Cuz a lot of people ask me this and I have no answer. How does a Canadian start work in this country? Like, there are lawsRob Cohen:There are laws and I mean, I know that Americans are all about purity. So I will say that Canadians, they're almost like Americans. It's almost like we live next door to you guys,Michael Jamin:South or north of us.Rob Cohen:I, I don't know, , I don't know. But I didn't have any aspirations to get into showbiz or even come to the United States. So I didn't know that it was a, it was all a fluke. The whole thing was a fluke. I can certainly condense the journey.Michael Jamin:Let's hear it.Rob Cohen:The fast version is I was a bit of a scam as a young man and was encouraged to live on my own at a young age. And so I lived on my own and I was just a complete screw up. And I grew up in Calgary and had no future whatsoever.Michael Jamin:You were encouraged to live on your own at what age?Rob Cohen:15.Michael Jamin:Why? You were, you were a handful for your parents.Rob Cohen:I was a handful because my dad had gotten remarried and the mix was not the greatest mix. So there were two opinions on how things should work in that situation. I was of one opinion andMichael Jamin:TheRob Cohen:Back was of another.Michael Jamin:But looking back on it, do you realize, Do, are you, do you feel like you were wrong as a 15 year old? Or do you like No, I was right.Rob Cohen:You were right. I was absolutely right. Interesting. Absolutely. Right. and so I just, You,Michael Jamin:You were on your own at 15, Dude, I, I couldn't imagine.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I had an apartment. I, I mean, it's not like I suddenly got, was living on my own and figured everything out. I was still a disaster. I just had my own apartment and I was so stupid that for the first month I was like, Oh, this is awesome. My party pad. And I had all my buddies over and we were just doing stupid things. And then I got the, basically realized I had to pay rent and gas and electric. And I was like, Oh my God. Like, I actually have to pay these bills to live here. And I was delivering pizzas at night, and that was certainly,Michael Jamin:You're gonna school during the day and delivering pizza.Rob Cohen:Yeah, I delivered pizzas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was a comp, I was a disaster. I had a 75 Dodge Dart that I would deliver pizzas in whatever the weather was and would like steal gasoline from car lots. So I could put gas in my car to deliver pizzas. I was a complete idiot.Michael Jamin:Have you tried pitching this as a show?Rob Cohen:No. it's just, it's so, it's, it's interesting in hindsight, but it's also, you know, you could call it, you know, like it's like Don portrait of a team runaway. It's like Rob portrait of a complete disaster because every choice I made was wrong. That'sMichael Jamin:Mind's a good show.Rob Cohen:. Well, maybe at some point, but I think I sold a pilot once about my parents' weird divorce and how they lived a block away from each other, but had the same address through it, some flute. But anyways, I was just drifting around for a while, just doing nothing. And sort of speeding up to your question. My cousin lived here in LA in the Valley, and I, because I was doing nothing in Calgary and had, I was not gonna college, I did not have enough credits or interest to go to university. And just got my car one day and left my apartment in Calgary and just threw a bunch of stuff in the car and drove down here to LA to visit my cousin who lived in Vaneyes. And again, like speeding through the boring stuff. I was just gonna visit for a couple days and crash on his couch.Rob Cohen:And I met this girl that he was going to school with, and we, she and I hit it off and I'm like, I'll stay another week mm-hmm. and then I'll stay another week. And then I sort of had this, if you want to use the word epiphany incorrectly realized like, I could go back to Calgary and do nothing, or I could stay here and do nothing with this girl. So I decided to like stick around for an you know, excuse me, undetermined amount of time. And then realized I'm kind of living here. But I was, I lived here illegally for many years.Michael Jamin:And you were like 17.Rob Cohen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How old were you? And you were living here illegally?Rob Cohen:Yes. For many years. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, but you were working, How did you work then?Rob Cohen:I worked under the table. I got a bunch of jobs. I think the statute of limitations is over, but I worked at different restaurants and Right. The, I was a security guard at a mall. I sold shoes, I fixed yogurt machines.Michael Jamin:You know, I worked at a yogurt store. I wonder if you fixed Humphrey yogurt.Rob Cohen:You fix, did you fix them? I worked at a place called I can't believe it's Yogurt. And then they opened up a second store that said, Yes, it's yogurt . So they basically, they opened up a store that answered a question nobody was asking. No. Was asking . Yeah. And I still remember how to, you know, you unscrew those four bolts and you pull out the assembly and you take the O-rings off and you clean them and then you lu the O-rings and then you put the thing back in. But it was all the reality was because I looked and mostly sounded like an American people never asked. And this was pre nine 11 and pre all that stuff. And they just thought I was American. And no, not one person asked me for any validating id. Wow. And I, I made up a fake social security number and got hired and they, a lot of 'em just paid me cash under the table.Michael Jamin:This is perfect. Yeah. Now, and then at some point, well, but maybe I'll skip. So how did you, how did this whole Hollywood thing happen? When did you decide, how did that, when did you decide you wanted to be a, I guess, a writer? Right.Rob Cohen:Well, I never decided it. I, I, it's such a boring story and I may actually do it as a pilot, but cutting to the chase, I was delivering food for a, a deli that is no longer in business in LA Right. And had a lot of clientele that were in show business. And this one guy took a liking to me and basically said, you know, if you ever wanna get outta the exciting world of late night sandwich delivery, gimme a call. We need PAs. And I didn't know what a PA was. And he explained what it was. So I, I, this is how dope I was. I was like, Yeah, sure. So I'll, I called him up and went over to the Fox lot and he explained what a PA was Uhhuh and I thought it paid more than working at thisMichael Jamin:Deli. And he, he was a producer. What wasRob Cohen:He? Producer? for, I mean, he's still a producer, but producer of The Simpsons, Tracy Elman show. Oh, okay. This, he's an amazing guy named Richards guy who I, I literally owe everything to. And he hired me because I was nice to him when I would deliver food as a PA on the Trace Elman Show. And that was the very first time I was exposed to anything in show business whatsoever. And I was assigned to the writer's room, so I was in charge of getting them food and cleaning up. And And that's a queen. Yeah. And it was an amazing writer's room. And that was it. That was the first exposure to it.Michael Jamin:And then when did you decide you wanna start? When did you start writing?Rob Cohen:I didn't start writing. I was there for the last two seasons of the Tracy Elman Show. And then on the last season I didn't even, I still don't really know how to type. I started hunt and peck, but I would stay late at night. And they were, it was a great writer's room and they were really nice to me. And I just thought these guys seemed to be having fun. And one night they were stuck on a joke and that meant they were sticking around, which meant I had to stick around because I had to clean up after them. And I just decided like, I'm gonna write down a couple options for this joke. And sort of meekly slipped it to one of the writers, this guy Mark Flanigan, who was an incredible, and I'm like, you know, I don't mean to step on eight toes, but I just, I wanna go home.Rob Cohen:Ideas. Yeah. And that was literally, I wanna go home. And he, they used one of the jokes. And so I got to go home . And then I was like, Okay, well I'll try this again. So I, I started to very quietly with months in between side sort of pitch ideas. And then I went in at night after work and Red Scripts and sort of taught myself how a script is visually structured. Right. And then on the computer would type fake scripts just to physically format a script. And then, because it was a sketch show, I had this idea for a sketch and I just typed it up and it took like a month for me to type up a six page sketch cuz I was terrified. Right. And they ended up buying it and Wow. It was like $1,600. And I got an agent at caa, but I was still a pa at the Tracy Elman show. Right. And, and then I thought, again, showing my lack of planning for my life it was like, this writing things seems kind of fun, like maybe I'll try it. And that was, that was when I had the first inkling that perhaps that was something I may want to try to pursue. But there was no guarantee of success.Michael Jamin:And then you just continued writing specs scripts and your agents started submitting you places.Rob Cohen:I wrote a bunch of spec stuff and then by that point to Tracy Mond show was canceled and they switched. It was the same production company as The Simpsons, which was just starting. So they switched everybody over to The Simpsons. And then because everybody there was so great when The Simpsons took off, you know, it just was huge outta the gate. They had all these weird assignments that they needed help with. Like can you come up with 50 grant calls for Bart? Can you come up with a promo for this? Do the Bartman video that's gonna be on mtv. And I'm actually looking, the, my very first check sort of professional check over on the wall was for writing the intro that Bart Simpson was gonna say on MTV for the Do the Bartman video that had Michael Jackson on it. Right.Rob Cohen:So I got $300 and then just started sort of you know, writing weird things. And the, the first actual job that I got was I was recommended by one of the writers to these producers named Smith Heian. Mm-Hmm. And they were doing a 50th anniversary Bugs Bunny special for CBS. And they needed a writer that knew a lot of stuff about Bugs Bunny. So I had a meeting with them, they hired me for $2,600 to write this whole special, And that was like my first professionally produced credit of something that was, I, I was involved in from the beginning to the end. Right. But I'm still a paMichael Jamin:And none of this see, people ask me like, Well, do I have to move to Hollywood to work in Hollywood? AndRob Cohen:Like, Right.Michael Jamin:I mean, this wouldn't happen if you were not in Hollywood.Rob Cohen:Oh yeah. And it was, everybody says this, but it was absolutely a different time. And I also think that because it was the late eighties, early nineties and things were, there were way more jobs. And also because sketch shows were so popular, they needed people needed little bits. And also being around The Simpsons from the beginning, it was great like that. The Do the Bartman thing I sweated over that for a week and it was probably four sentences. Right. and I would write like top 10 lists for Letterman and try to send them in like naively thinking here's, here's 20 top 10 lists, Maybe you guys will like them. And I was just, I would stay there late at night in the office on the Fox up by myself with, you know, feral cats giving birth under the trailer just writing weird stuff and kind of figuring out the job as I was doing it.Michael Jamin:And then how did you get the Ben Stiller Jo Show?Rob Cohen:This has gotta be also boring.Michael Jamin:I think it's fascinating.Rob Cohen:Well, the way I got the Stiller show was The Simpsons had taken off and I was still working for Gracie. And I had an idea for an episode and it was season two of The Simpsons. And so I went and just wrote this episode on spec on my own. And it was basically a diehard parody cuz Diehard had come out just like a couple years before that about the power plant where Homer works getting taken over and he inadvertently becomes a hero and saves a power plant. Mm-Hmm. . So I wrote this whole spec, I turned it into Sam Simon who was running the show and was just great and he loved it. But what I was told sort of off the record is at that time, Gracie Films had a rule where they could not hire writers that were already working for the company in another capacity.Rob Cohen:It was like this weird archaic rule. So being a Ding Don I was like, Oh yeah, well screw that. I quit. So I walked over to the main bungalow and spoke to Richard Sky and I was like, You know what? I think that rule's terrible and Sam likes my script and I just think I'm gonna try this writing thing. And, and I quit. And they're like, Well, we're sorry to have you go. And then as I was walking back across the parking lot to get my stuff, Sam grabbed me and he is like, I heard you quit. And I said, Yes. And he goes, Well now you don't work here anymore, so now we can hire you, but we can't use your idea because you pitched it to us when you're an employee. And I was like, That's weird. But cutting to the chase.Rob Cohen:They took me upstairs to the writer's room and they had an index card that just says Homer invents a drink and most deals it. And so they said, We would like you, we loved your script and you've been here since the beginning. Like, we'd love you to write an episode. And I was like, Absolutely. I was freaking out. And I said, like a, an arrogant idiot. I was like, But I wanna be involved in the entire process. Cause I knew the process cuz I was working on the show. And they're like, You got it. And so we broke the whole story and it ended up being the episode flaming mosMichael Jamin:Flaming. I know you wrote Flaming Mo. Wow.Rob Cohen:So I wrote Flaming Moose, and then time went by and, and it got produced and it was on the air. And the way that I got the Stiller show was I was doing punch up on this terrible movie for Morgan Creek and met this other writer there named Jeff Khan. And Jeff and I hit it off and he's like, Hey, they're shooting this weird pilot at my apartment, you wanna go check it out? And I was like, Sure. So we went over and it was the pilot for the Ben Stiller show. Mm-Hmm. . And Ben was there and he and I hit it off and he was asking what I'd worked on and I said, this episode that had just come out for The Simpsons called Flaming Mos. And he was like, I love Flaming Moes, you wrote that. So he said, if his pilot ever became a show, he would love to hire me because we, he and I had so many similar references in our life. We love disaster movies and all this other stuff. So we really clicked. And then a couple months later, the show got picked up and he called me and said, I wanna hire you. And that was my first staff job.Michael Jamin:Wow. What itRob Cohen:Entail? What it entail. IMichael Jamin:Not it is, No, I think it's so cool. I I've known you all these years. I didn't even know that dude.Rob Cohen:And then it's all flukes. It's all flukes,Michael Jamin:It's all Yeah. But it's also you putting yourself out there and I don't know. That's amazing.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I mean, I'm very fortunate these flukes happened because, ButMichael Jamin:You also Yeah. I hadn't but you put yourself in a position to have these flu happen too. Yeah. AndRob Cohen:You were put if I hadn't, but I was prepared. But if I hadn't met Jeff that day and we hadn't gone to his apartment, I would not have met Ben and that wouldn't have led to the show. Right. WhichMichael Jamin:Led. But you're also, I mean, honestly, and I mean this in a compliment, like you're one of the be better connected, more most connected writers. I know, you know, a lot of people like, you know, you're friend, you're a friendly guy, you, you know, a lot of people I guess maybe cuz you leave your houseRob Cohen:No, but you're, you're connected, you know, a lot of people, it's just,Michael Jamin:It's just I know, but I'm always, I'm always surprised by who you like you seem to know more people .Rob Cohen:Yeah. But it's only because I just think I hate this term, but I think the alt comedy scene was starting when you and I were starting off in LA Yeah. And because, especially because of the Stiller show, that whole crew were so important. Like Janine and David Cross and all those guys were so important to the alt comedy scene. And then that's where Jack Black and Tenacious D started and all these other people Will Ferrell. Like they were all coming up that way. I just think it was timing of an, an era that was happening. So wereMichael Jamin:Just, Were you involved in that? Like did you do like, what do you mean? Did you go to those shows and stuff? Like IRob Cohen:Oh yeah. The Diamond Club. Yeah. I mean it was, that was the whole scene. Like big intel books, the Diamond Club. IMichael Jamin:Didn't even know about it back then.Rob Cohen:Really? Oh my God. Yeah. That was where everybody hung out. Like I even performed in some of those dopey shows just because it was, it was a group of friends that were not famous yet that we're just doing these weird shows at this place, The Diamond Club in Hollywood, which is gone mm-hmm. . And you could tell it was like, you know, Jack and Kyle, you knew they were amazing, but they were not tenacious to you yet. Right. And, and Will was not Will Fiery yet. He was a guy from you, the Groundlings and people were just, you know, Janine and David and Pat Oswald and all these guys that were justMichael Jamin:Right. So let's talk about those guys. So they were, you know, these are people putting themselves out there. It's not like Absolutely. They're not saying, Hey, I put me in my movie. They're just putting themselves out there. They're doing shows. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just how you do it. And so is they're not asking to start at the top, they're starting at the bottom.Rob Cohen:Yeah. Well I think that's a great point. And I think using the, the Diamond Club shows, The Diamond Club was this horrible, horrible dumpy club. A club is a loose term that was owned by one of the the Stray Cat was it Stray Cats?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know the band. TheRob Cohen:Band The Stray Cats. Yeah. It was like Slim Jim Phantom, I think was the guy who owned the club. Okay. So it was this horrible, decrepit theater that was near LaBrea and Hollywood and it was kind of a you can do anything you want kind of place because it was just soaked in like old piss smell and booze. But the good thing was a lot of friends of ours, like this friend CJ Arabia, started to put these shows together. And so she would ask everybody in our little group that all hung out and travel together and dated each other and whatever. It's like, hey, we can do these shows at the Diamond Club. And I'm not a performer, but it would be like, we would build entire sets out of corrugated cardboard and paint them because the Diamond Club didn't care. They just wanted to sell alcohol to people that came to the shows . So there would be like, you know, shows where you look now at the lineup, you're like, Holy crap, that's the, that's like a lineup of insane comedy hitters. Right. But at the time they were not, they were just young weirdos.Michael Jamin:It's so, because you know, I moved here in 92, I lived right in West Hollywood. I lived right on the corner and I'm just, it's amazed how like we just didn't know each other then, you know? Yeah,Rob Cohen:Yeah. But you and I actually in Seavert sort of weirdly intersected with the Wonder years unbeknownst to us.Michael Jamin:I well sever wrote on that. I didn't he sold number years.Rob Cohen:No, but you guys, and you're credited on my episode.Michael Jamin:I'm no, I I didn't work in the Wonder Years. Si sold ans sold an episode of Freelance episode of Wonder Years, my partner becauseRob Cohen:Yeah. But it's so weird because on screen, it's you two and me credited on the episode. I pitched to Bob Brush. He tried to ripMichael Jamin:Up. Not me, dude. I don't have any credits on Wonder Years. You gotta, I Oh,Rob Cohen:You know, Seavert and his old partner?Michael Jamin:Yeah, his old partner. Yeah. Yes.Rob Cohen:Sorry. It was Sivert and his previous partner.Michael Jamin:I'm surprised he got credit though. Okay.Rob Cohen:Wow. Wow. The whole thing was Bob Brush was just stealing ideas left and right. But wow. That's interesting. But that's SivertMichael Jamin:And I But you never wanted to I'm well, I'm sorry I cut you off. GoRob Cohen:Ahead. No, no. I was gonna say, I didn't know you were Seavert yet. Right. But on that episode, Seavert and I share credit even though at the time we were complete strangers. And then I really met him when I met you on just shootMichael Jamin:Me. Right, Right. Now, did you, you never wanted to perform, I mean, it's funny cause you have performed but you never wanted to.Rob Cohen:I have performed reluctantly. I hate it. And it was like, whether the Diamond Club show or if I've been like an emergency fill in at the Growlings, it's, before I do it, I'm like, Hey, this is cool. It's gonna like sharpen my brain and it's gonna be a great thing. Just jump off the cliff and try. And then in the middle of it I'm soaked in sweat and hate myself. And then at the end I, I am so relieved it's over and I absolutely loathe it. I wait,Michael Jamin:I'm just shoot me. I remember we had you play the dirty bus. The dirty bus Boy was your character. Dirty Dirty bus, and you hit it outta the park.Rob Cohen:. Well, all I had to do is sort of wiggle my eyes. Lasciviously while it was clear the older waitress and I were messing around.Michael Jamin:Oh my God.Rob Cohen:Cause Andy called me in and said, Can you, He's done that so many times where it's like when he had True Jackson, he's like we need somebody to be the hobo king. Can you be a paramount an hour? I'm like, .Michael Jamin:Okay.Rob Cohen:But it's not. Cuz I love it. I, I hate it, but it's also, it sounds so goofy that if I don't have any lines or something that I'm fine doing it. But I ended up on so many shows I worked on as a writer, being an emergency go to that.Michael Jamin:IRob Cohen:Truly, I truly hate it. IMichael Jamin:Truly hate it. As mentioned, Rob was talking about Andy Gordon, who's a writer we worked with a number of times. Yeah. A great guy and hilarious writer, butRob Cohen:Hilarious and so funny. Like just as a personMichael Jamin:It really witty, really making laugh. Yeah. And you just had dinner with him. Yeah. It's so fa Okay, so then you were okay. Then we worked together and just shoot, We, for many years, we, we used to sit next to each other. Yeah. Sometimes at least. Yeah. And then, and then what happened was years, I remember years later we were doing a pilot. We were helping out a pilot. I don't remember whose Do you, do you remember? We were, I remember I pilot, I don't know, might have been, might have been a CBS Ratford pilot, but, but what happened? So people don't know. So when someone makes a pilot, it's very, at least back in the day, it was very common for the person who created the show to call in their friends as a favor. Hey, can you guys help, you know, sit a couple days and help me, You know? Right. Pitch on jokes or do the rewrite or whatever. And as it's courtesy, you always say yes. I mean, you just never, never say no. And CauseRob Cohen:You also hope, if it's a success, you'll get a job.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But sometimes you have a job so you don't even care. But Sure. But, but absolutely. You always say yes. And I remember being there on the state floor, and I hadn't seen you in a while, and I was like, Rob, what are you up to? And then you said, I was like, so I was thinking you were gonna, you know, you had written on a bunch of shows, but you were like, Yeah, I'm kind of done. I'm done writing, I wanna directRob Cohen:Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. And so what happened there? What was the, what made you wanna stop writing and start directing?Rob Cohen:I feel like I, I'm gonna continue to take long, boring stories and compress them, but the, the quickest answer is I'm so appreciative of the, the fluke that come into writing. And I, I was a writer on TV shows for 18 years. Right. And I, I greatly appreciate the opportunity that it provided in all areas. But what was happening would be I would be on a show and they would need somebody to go supervise, like a shoot on, like at, you know, the Radford lot. There was that fake New York Park. So they would need somebody to go film a scene that's supposedly Central Park. Right. Also, if they were doing any exterior shoots, I would volunteer to do that. And there's people we know that are writers that hate being around actors and they just wanna stay in the room. . And I was, I was realizing I wanted to get out of the room mm-hmm.Rob Cohen: and go where the action was. And then I would direct some, some friends of mine would do low budget music videos and I would do it for free. And then I was kind of building this weird little real sort of unknowingly. And then other friends of mine that part of those Diamond Club crowds that were now becoming well known comedy performers were doing movies. And they would ask me if I would help write the promos, you know, the commercials for the movies. And foolishly or otherwise, I would be like, Yeah, if you, if you arrange for me to direct these promos, I'll definitely, I'll write it and I'll do it for free. And they're like, Okay. So because they had muscled with the studio, they would be like, Rob's the guy and he's also gonna direct it in the studio's. Like whatever you say.Rob Cohen:Right. So I realized that I was really enjoying it. I'm not saying I'm good at it, but I was really enjoying it. And then building this sort of very weird real. And then when the writer strike happened 2007, 2008 I was walking the picket line and kind of had this feeling in my head, like, if I go back into the room, I'm going to stay on the path of being a TV writer probably for many, many, many years. And this is an opportunity. I was pretty honest with myself. It's like, what I really, really want to do is be directing, like, to make the stuff instead of write the stuff. Right. So, so I decided on the picket line that I would kind of hop off the writing train and just try to keep cobbling together these weird little directing jobs. AndMichael Jamin:That's,Rob Cohen:That was when I made the term.Michael Jamin:But I remember being on the floor with you on this stage and say, I remember this conversation really well. I was like, Wow, you're gonna be a director. And I said, like, So is your, because you know, Rob's a big shot writer. I said, So is your agent helping you out with this?Rob Cohen:Right.Michael Jamin:And what was your answer?Rob Cohen:Not at all. They wouldn't not at allMichael Jamin:Discuss it. And why not didn't discussRob Cohen:It because I was making money for the agency as a writer, and they did not want to go through building me up as a director because they were and it wasn't evil, It was just, those were the facts.Michael Jamin:That's exactly right. And that's, it's not, it's because that's a hard sell. They're not gonna push that rock up the hill. They already have directors and Rob's a no one is, he's said, no one is a director. Correct. And so you, you were literally starting your career over, and the way you did it was by working for free, you know, by just doing it and not asking for permission. You just did it. You know, figure out what you can do. And I say this all the time on my podcast, on my social media, like, and I use this, I use as an example, you know, you did it. And then I, so we were at one point we were running Maron, and that's, and I use you as another example of how to get work there. So I don't remember who contacted who, but we were, Maron was our low budget show, really super low budget show. And I guess, and how did, how did we get, I don't remember. I don't remember details, but we came in contact again.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlistRob Cohen:In what I think it was, I emailed you guys to congratulate you on the show and we just started a dialogue. And then you guys very generously asked what I was doing. And I think that's how we loosely started this conversation.Rob Cohen:Right. But it was you Sivert, Mark, who I'd known a bit in the past. And then was it Erco or was it yeah,Michael Jamin:Probably Pi Cerco.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I can't remember. I mean, you guys went way out of your way to let me have a meeting.Michael Jamin:But what's what I, IRob Cohen:Remember is in Glendale.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And what I remember about that meeting was how prepared you were. You came, we met with a lot of directors and we needed directors who were cheap, can do low budget. Who, And you, you had, you were all that I could do low budget cuz you do low budget, you do no budget. Right, Right. And you came in super prepared, and I've talked about this before as well. I, I think on my podcast, we on social media is like, you blew us away. So what you did, as I remember, you watched the presentation, which is already shot, and then you, you blocked it. You, you, you drew diagrams and you said, this is where I would've, this is how I would've shot the presentation. This is where I would've put the cameras. And see, by doing it this way, you have less setups and you don't have to move the cameras much.Michael Jamin:And because you do, because you're being efficient with your setups, you can make your day, you can get all the shots that you need because I'm not getting a ton of coverage. I'm just getting exactly what I need and I'm getting it fast. And the fact that you took all that time to draw those drawings, you, you know, you proved to us, and I remember you walked out and we were like, He's hot. You know, he's the guy, he knows how to do it. Mm-Hmm. , you know, you blew us away. So it wasn't like we did you a favor, you came in, you were prepared. You know,Rob Cohen:We, Yeah. But I really, I mean, again, I remember that meeting so clearly because I was, I, I, I loved you guys. I thought the presentation was awesome and the show had all this great promise, but I loved the vibe of what the show could be and really, really wanted that job for those reasons and to work with you guys again. But also because I knew there was a way, and it was my old writer sort of producer brain thinking like, there's limited time, there's limited money. How can you maximize the writing and the, the humor opportunities, but your production schedule is so crazy tight. How can mathematically you do both things? And that's, I remember leaving that meeting and just like, I, I didn't know what else I could've said, but it was really my experience as a writer and a producer, just like, this is how I would make this more efficient. Not that you guys were inefficient, but it was just how my brain had worked from the writing side.Michael Jamin:And that's, and I, and that's what we appreciated most about you as a director, is that you came from a writer, you were a writer, you understood the writing, you understood how to be true to the script, how to service the script. And I gotta say, it was always very easy working with you was never, you had never had any ego attached. You were like, Hey, is this, how do you like this? Oh, you don't like that? Maybe you like this. It was always, you know, course pleasing the client basically. ButRob Cohen:You guys were not only were you my friends, but you guys were the bosses along with Mark and I I would say just, it's not even from a Canadian standpoint. It's like you are hired to visually capture the script that has been written mm-hmm. . So if somebody's coming in thinking like, here's how I'm gonna put my stamp on it, or this is gonna be for my real, it's a mistake because Right. What I, what I love doing, and you guys were great show runners, was if you got Guy, if there was an idea I had, I would happily run it by you because it made it easier if you liked it. And if you said, Well, we actually thought about it this way when we wrote it, it's like, that's cool. My job is to visually capture it. Yeah. And, and also it's like this scene's running over, so here's a, here's an idea how we can pick up that time.Rob Cohen:Right. Or Mark has an idea. So it's like, okay, let's honor what Mark is saying and Right. That's to me, it's your number one goal is to take the blueprint and build a house. And it was so easy because you guys, we all knew each other, but we all came from a writing background. Yeah. And it was, it was like, well, you know, this B story's never gonna pay off this way, so what if we just save some time and just make this like a joke instead of a B story or whatever was going on. ButMichael Jamin:I remember right. I was always relieved when you, when you were directing, I was like, Oh, this is gonna be a good fun week. It's gonna be easy. It's gonna be yeah, we'll get what we need.Rob Cohen:Oh, I loved it.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Rob Cohen:I love that show.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was, we had a blast. But it was, yeah, it was low budget. And then, so what do you say to, because it's so many people, you know, they do ask me like, Well, how do I, how do I become a director? Mm-Hmm. . And so how would you tell people, young people just starting out, I would do what you just did, but go, let's hear what you would say. No,Rob Cohen:I, I would say you know, again, to sound like an old man, times have changed mm-hmm. . and I would say that the number one thing is to show somebody that you have directed something and that can be directing it on your phone or making a short film. There's so many ways to do it inexpensively now with technology. There's no excuse. Right. My second answer would be it's to show the people that have written the show or have the script that you can not only be trusted to run the set and get all the scenes and get some options e editorially, but that you also aren't literally just filming the script that you are gonna mind some more humor. Right. Or you have a style that's appropriate and that's established in the first part that I said, which is make your own real.Rob Cohen:You know, like there's a music video I did the total budget out the door before, way before that was $2,000. Like everything. Right. And we were able to, you know, we had three minutes and 25 seconds or whatever it was to do it, but we were able to get some funny stuff within the video and it was for Virgin Records. And the one letter I got back from was like, We love this video because there's so much funny stuff in it. It wasn't about the song, but it's finding a way to sort of add, without putting the spotlight in yourself because the spotlight should be on the script.Michael Jamin:But once you have your reel, like okay, how do you, who do you show it toRob Cohen:You? If I was doing it today? I think you show it to I mean YouTube is a great example of somewhere that for free, you can exhibit your wares mm-hmm. , I would say the going, showing it to an agent is a, is an older route that I think is gonna be more frustrating because you can now start a website of yourself and send it around to people with a click. I think, you know, the great thing about short films is there's so many festivals and a lot of 'em are online that even if you make a three minute short film for a, a very inexpensive amount of money, you could literally have people around the world see it after you're done editing it. And so that's what I would do today is write something, because if you write it, it gives you extra juice.Rob Cohen:Mm-Hmm. . And then you're also not paying a writer. Right. And you, and then the way that you saw it as a writer, writers basically direct stuff in their head when they're writing mm-hmm. . So then take the initiative to film what you saw in your head originally and put down on paper. And then there's so many people that would do favors. Your friend might be an editor and he needs something for his reel. So you make a deal. It's like, if you edit this for me we'll have a finished product, then both of us have something. So I, I would say it's, it's, it's it's hustle, but it's not like that lame thing of you gotta hustle. I think it's an iPhone will make something so beautiful. And with an iPhone and a tripod, your costs are gonna be your phone and a $10 tripod.Michael Jamin:And I, I say the, I Go ahead. Continue. Right.Rob Cohen:Well, no, I just think there's no excuse to not make stuff. Yeah. But you want to, you, you want to use the internet you want to use film festivals that a lot of 'em have free submissions and start a website you're on webpage and people will find it like they, somebody's gonna see it. And as long as you keep adding to it on a fairly regular basis, it's the same as when you and I were starting, you would have to send out a packet and to meet writers for staffing meetings, they would want to either read your spec half hour or your writing packet. So this is the same thing, it's just your directing packet.Michael Jamin:Right, Right. I say this all the time, I think people think I'm nuts, but Yeah. It's just like, stop asking for permission and just do it. Yep.Rob Cohen:Absolutely.Michael Jamin:A Hundred percent. And stop and stop thinking about starting at the top. How do I sell my, how do I direct for Twentieth Century Fox? No. How do I direct for my neighbor? Yeah, That's, that's the question. Yeah.Rob Cohen:But that's what I loved about those music videos. Not to keep referencing 'em, but you're, the, the greatest thing is when the artist said yes, because I was like, Oh, this is great. I'm gonna have a music video in my real, And then you realize like that $2,000 pays for catering, pays for editing, pays for a dp, pays for lighting, pays for location, and you very quickly realize you have no money. But the challenge of that is so great and has so much value, these little jobs that people can take because when you do show it to somebody, they go, You made that whole thing for $2,000. That's ex or damn, or you made this short film for a hundred dollars and you could, I you could, if you have a Mac and an iPhone, you can make a film.Michael Jamin:I said, so funny you say, cuz I said the same exact things. Like the less money you spend, the more impressive it is because you're saying aRob Cohen:Hundred percent,Michael Jamin:You know, and, and by the way, no one's gonna be impressed by the Dolly shot or the special effects you put in because you're not gonna, you know, the Marvel movies are gonna do that a thousand times better than you can ever dream of doing it. Yeah. So it always comes down to the script and Yeah. And, and how little you can spend. That's the impressive part.Rob Cohen:Yeah. And I will say, not to over compliment you, but whenever I have meetings for directing jobs that every, the shows that they bring up almost every time that they're really curious about are Marin mm-hmm. standing against Eva, which is another Iffc show. And somebody Somewhere, which is the Bridget Everett show, which is an incredible group of people that do that, but on a fairly low budget. Yeah. And nobody wants to talk about how you pulled off some amazing big budget production because they know you had a big budget, but if you can show them that you can work lean and mean and you were involved from the ground up it has so much cred with everybody that to this day, like it happened the other day, people were talking about Marin, they did not believe what that schedule was like. Yeah. And when I explained it to 'em, their minds are blown. Yep. They, they can't believe it's possible. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. FastRob Cohen:And it is possible.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It was like two or two and a half days for a shoot,Rob Cohen:Which is two and a half days for an episode.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And ordinarily, it's like five. Right. Or how do you, have you ever directed an episode that was more than five days?Rob Cohen:I've done one that's six. Okay. but you know, me, the thing that I would say in these meetings is like basically a, a regular work week, you will have completed two episodes where most shows are barely getting one for a way bigger budget. Yeah. But the great thing about the Iffc model was they don't give you notes, they stay outta your way. They're supportive and they appreciate that you're delivering a television show for peanuts. But then everybody benefits because they've agreed to embark on a journey where everybody has skin in the game. And that, that I think also will help people get writing or directing jobs.Michael Jamin:I see. I, I think sever and I, we prefer, you know, we take whatever work we get, but we prefer working low budget for that reason. They leave you alone and you can actually be more creative. But how do you feel when you're like, I would imagine directing a high budget piece would be more stressful and, and and terrifying.Rob Cohen:It is, but because there's more writing on it. But I would say the larger budget stuff that I've directed, and it's not like major movies or anything like that. The, the pace of things is a lot slower mm-hmm. because people have more time and more money. And to me, I love going fast and lean and mean because you still have the amount of money, but why not get five takes at a scene instead of two takes. Right. And, and so if you have more money, it doesn't mean you get lazy, you keep your foot on the gas, but you just get more options. Right. And so I think learning anything, writing or directing anything from the ground up with no resources will make you be more creative and more efficient. And people, when they're hiring you, certainly for directing, appreciate how efficient you are. Because you're basically saying, Give me the keys to the bank and I will take care of your money and you'll have five choices instead of two choices. Right. And that's what it comes down to.Michael Jamin:You say choices, do you mean coverage or do you meanRob Cohen:Coverage?Michael Jamin:CoverageRob Cohen:Takes coverage? You know, Maron, we would rehearse it as we blocked it. You know, like it was, it's not like we had these long, lazy rehearsals. It was like, Okay guys, we have three hours in the living room. Let's,Michael Jamin:Do you have more rehearsals, more rehearsal times on your other shows? Yeah. We had no rehearsal time.Rob Cohen:Yeah, sometimes, but I also think that's built into the larger budget. So if it's a network, single-camera show, people can walk away to their trailers and you call him back when you're ready and then lighting director gets everything perfect. And again, like with Joe Kessler, who is our awesome DP on Marin mm-hmm. , that guy works so well just like running gun, Running gun. Yep. And there's ways to make stuff look great. And also Mark, who's not a trained actor, was delivering some really heavy stuff mm-hmm. and people are finding it as they go. Because I think that team mentality, if you're writing or directing, everybody's on board. They, they've signed up understanding what the job is and once people chip in it's gonna make it a better experience in every area.Michael Jamin:Now you, I'm changing gears here, but you also do a lot of like this Dr. Show. Like you do a lot of, like, you do commercial work, but you also do like bizarre passion projects on the side. Mm-Hmm. , Right? So talk about like that. Like what, what's, what'sRob Cohen:WellMichael Jamin:Hanging with Dr.Rob Cohen:Yeah. It was during the Pandemic and Dana Gold, Pete Aaronson and I are friends and we just, everybody was stuck inside and a lot of work had gone away because of the pandemic. And we just started talking and kind of came up on the fly of the show and realized we could make our own YouTube channel and if we put the money together ourselves, then we're the studio. So nobody's gonna stop us because we're paying for it. Right. So Dana does this incredible Dr. Zs impression and we were like, what if Dr. Zs hosted the Mike Douglas show? But he was sort of like a cheesy Sammy Davis Jr guy, and we would call in favors with friends of ours who would be real guests, shoot them remotely and make 10 episodes. Right. And it was truly a fun project during Covid. And we ended up, you know however you could describe having a small but interested following making season one of Hanging with Dr. Z. And we used the internet and Instagram and, and all that stuff, which led to us having a really successful Kickstarter campaign for season two. And the budget, I wouldn't even use the word shoestring, I would say it was like a photocopy of a shoestring, but I love doing weird, silly stuff. And a lot of it it improvised and it just tapped into all of our favorite ways to do stuff. Right. But it was working with friends, you know, during a pandemic.Michael Jamin:Right, Right. People have friends and you do project with your friends, right?Rob Cohen:Yeah. And we ne we, we have not made one penny on that show. We, we have lost money on it, but willingly because it going, what I said earlier, we could guarantee it would exist because we were creating it and paying for it. So there's nothing stopping us. Why not? Like why not do it?Michael Jamin:People often say to me like, you know, they want, or they want me to read this, they want me to make their career. And it's like, you don't need me to make your career. You need three funny friends. There are three friends with a similar vision. Yeah. Do something with them. And that's exactly how you, that's how you started. That's how I started. Yeah. And so that's why I say stop asking for stop begging for permission to just start, you know, doing it. Just do it.Rob Cohen:The thing that, like using hanging with Dr. Z as an example, and only because it's something that I was involved in that came out of some friends of ours who were politically active when the elections were happening, the 2020 elections mm-hmm. . And there was a group that had reached out to my friend Colin to make a campaign to stop Mitch McConnell. And so they asked Dana and I like, Could you guys help us out? And there's zero money involved, but are you guys interested? So Dana and I just started to shoot the breeze and we thought, let's just shoot Dr. Zs basically talking about why Mitch McConnell should be stopped. We shot it in his backyard and his girlfriend at the time played Nova and he played Dr. Zs and we did it in front of a, a green screen sheet and we knew we were gonna put the Statue of Liberty from Planet Apes behind them and shot a political ad in two hours.Rob Cohen:Right. And then we had so much fun with that and the, this little weird ad kind of did well enough within the small circle of people that love Dr. Z's political ads, that that's what led us to talking about the talk show. But again, it was just homemade. And my point is, I think whether people call it a passion project or whatever they wanna call it, if they have an idea and they write it or they direct it, or they do both, you immediately eliminate people saying, You can't do it because you did it. But more importantly, the people that could give you other opportunities respect the fact that you did it and didn't wait around for somebody to give you an opportunity. Right. Cause you will get the opportunities by creating your own opportunities.Michael Jamin:And that's, that's one thing I always admire about you, is you're, you're very entrepreneurial that way. And it's like, Yeah. You follow your heart.Rob Cohen:Yeah. But I'm also convinced, like as flukey as my career started, I'm convinced that it's gonna end. Every job will be my, my last. So I'm trying to keep more plate spinning Uhhuh. But I also love, you know, like whether it's, you know, somebody somewhere is such an amazing experience because of Bridget and Hannah and Paul who created, and Carolyn Strauss and hbo. And it is the nicest group of people and the most enjoyable environment where you can, every single person on that show in rural Illinois is there because they want to be there. Mm-Hmm. . And that energy drives that show where people watching it on TV can feel that vibe. Right. And, and whatever people think of that show, it's like summer camp where every year you get together and people are so excited to take very little money to be part of this experience.Rob Cohen:Right. And that the same thing can happen with person X deciding they want to make a short film or they wanna make fake commercials or whatever, because they're gonna set the tone and they're gonna create the vibe. So I think it's a mistake if somebody's like, I only wanna do cool stuff, or, you know, nobody's gonna let me do my ideas. It's like, Yeah, you're not letting yourself do your ideas. So when you told me you were starting your course, I'm like, the biggest obstacle to somebody making anything these days is the person who's bitching about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was me. Yeah.Rob Cohen:No, but, but it's all doable. Can you guarantee success? No. But you will gain amazing respect and opportunities by having it be tangible instead of complaining about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Rob Cohen:And that's just a fact.Michael Jamin:That's just a fact. Well, where do you see, where do you, because the industry has changed so much since we started, What? I don't know. What's, what's your prognosis for the future? What do you see? People ask me this, like, I don't know.Rob Cohen:I think, what doesMichael Jamin:The present look like?Rob Cohen:Well, I don't know, but I think it's quite obvious that streamers of the future and broadcast networks are not the future. Mm-Hmm. . So you and I were lucky enough to start in sort of part of the glory days of the nineties when mm-hmm. , you know, you had multiple staffing meetings, you know, you would just, it would be that sort of dating circuit for a few weeks where you would bump into people going in and out of offices. And you started off like having four offers. And then it would be two offers, and then it would be one offer. And then it goes from you hoping you do get an offer, or hoping you get a meeting and you could see the tide is turned. So to me, the future is definitely streaming and smaller budget, shorter orders mm-hmm. . And if somebody is expecting it to go back to people paying you a lot of money to do 22 episodes of a TV show a year, I think that is very foolish. Yeah. In my opinion, because it'll never go back to that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Rob Cohen:But it shouldn't go back to that.Michael Jamin:Well, it is what it is. But, but no,Rob Cohen:But there's no more musty tv. Like Right.Michael Jamin:YouRob Cohen:Know, look at the Emmys. Like, it's the, the show with the biggest amount of TV stars on it that just aired, had the lowest ratings ever. And it's not because of one person, it's because they've lost their viewership. Right. It's, they, they're not gonna get it back. People aren't gonna wake up one day and go, Gosh, I can't wait to watch this award show on broadcast. Like, those days are over.Michael Jamin:Right. And so it's always about, it's about hustling, it's about getting work, looking for the next job. Mm-Hmm. about doing your own stuff. Right. Yeah. And, and at the end of day it's gotta be, it's also has to be good. Whatever you're working on, like, you know, has to be great. Right. Well, IRob Cohen:Mean, look, I've done more than my share of crap and largely in my own hand. And I think that an opportunity is an opportunity. You know, there's a lot of credits I don't have in my IMDB page because the show was either a deeply unpleasant experience, or it's such a crappy show. You would spend so much time explaining it to people that they would fall asleep. And so the reason that I've called those credits is because it's, I'm grateful for the experience, but it was a stepping stone to what, what I wanted to do. And if I hadn't taken crappy show X, it wouldn't have led to a more positive thing. And, and I think like what you're doing is encouraging people to pursue an idea that they really believe in and learn the basics of how to write it and shoot it. Mm-Hmm. and just that small amount of initiative, even if you never show your project to anybody, you've made it, It's, it's an immense amount of satisfaction. Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. That's right. Incredible. Exactly right. And I, I said that as well. And if you didn't enjoy it, then this Hollywood thing is not for you. Cuz if you're not enjoying it for free, you're not gonna enjoy it when someone's banging, you just, you, you're just gonna get money for it. That's it. Yeah.Rob Cohen:And there's people that do that, and they make a fortune. But it's also, you know, like, not to keep talking about when you and I started, but mm-hmm. just shoot movie was in the nineties, and if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good and some were terrible. But now if you look at nbc, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?Michael Jamin:Yeah, maybe. Yeah.Rob Cohen:Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.Michael Jamin:See Rob Cohen is Rob Cohen. Everyone is, is there something where, is there something, What, what, Is there something people can do to follow? What do you, what what do you wanna, Can we plug something about what you're doing? Can we No, no. Can,Rob Cohen:No, I mean, I'm not on social media. I, I'm I just, I I'm genuinely appreciative of the projects that invite me to be a small part of it. And those happen, you know, here and there. And there's nothing to really follow. But I, I just think I'm excited to see this on your, your podcast. You've built a great following.Michael Jamin:I'll say this, when I need a pick me up, when I need a little encouragement, I call you mm-hmm. to kick me in the ass. Right. So I, you're just a great dude, and I appreciate you so much and for coming on and for sharing, but you thought was what was boring, but it was not boring at all. I, I learned some things about you.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I was a disaster as a young man, and now I'm an older disaster.Michael Jamin:, that's soRob Cohen:What you're, what you're doing, I know you're wrapping it up, but IMichael Jamin:Well, that's okay. I I don't wanna take more of your time, but go ahead. No, you'reRob Cohen:Not. That's, you're not, I'm, you've got as, as long as you want. I, I really think that if somebody wants to be a writer or director or producer or an editor, then do it. Like, again, you don't have to show it to anybody, but if somebody writes something really great, you can show it to people and someone will recognize that you have talent, but nobody's gonna be able to know anything about what you want to do if you haven't, if you can't manifest it. Right. So you know, again, like when you guys gave me that opportunity on Marin, unbeknownst to me, it, it was a huge help in me getting my next directing job because it, it legitimized me as a director, and then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But if I hadn't had that opportunity, it would be a struggle until there was another opportunity. Right.Michael Jamin:So you wanna It would happen eventually.Rob Cohen:Yeah. But you wanna be prepared for those opportunities. Right, right. So I just think that's just common sense. But what you're doing now, like if I told you you're gonna be doing this five years ago, you would, you would laugh.Michael Jamin:I would've said absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Wisdom, Rob. Hustle. Hustle muscle. That's it. I can't thank you enough for coming on, coming on the show time, man. Thank you for being my first guest. I, I didn't, I'm surprised I let you talk so much. I thought maybe I'd be doing all the talkingRob Cohen:. No, I'm surprised I talk so muchMichael Jamin:. I'm surprised. I'll let you get a word edgewise. Yeah. I dog a lot. Dude, thank you so much again. AndRob Cohen:Anytime. I love it.Michael Jamin:Don't go anywhere. We're gonna, we're gonna have a post more to wrap up after this, but Sure, sure. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And until next time,Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs

If one class could change the way you approach your life, this might be it. Learn about the core ethical beliefs of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the Epicureans and the Stoics and consider how they confront fundamental issues of justice, morality, and fear of death. Marsh McCall, P ’86, ’89, ’93, is a professor emeritus of classics and former dean of Stanford's Continuing Studies Program. At Stanford since 1976, he served three times as the chair of classics, associate dean of undergraduate studies and chairman of the Western Culture program committee. Professor McCall received the School of Humanities & Sciences 2013 Lifetime Teaching Award and in 2006, he received the Richard W. Lyman Award for exceptional volunteer service to alumni.

Marsh McCall was one of the original writer's of Late Night with Conan O'Brien and became head writer of the show. He's also a showrunner, Executive Producer and writer of funny things on the New Yorker online. Marsh is Beatles expert, and also plays basketball with Paul every once in awhile.  The two talk about their love of Monty Python, the TV show Fawlty Towers among other influences.   Marsh was a newspaper writer in San Francisco Bay area before moving to Los Angeles to pursue a career in TV writing. He landed his first job as one of the original Conan O'Brien writers, along with Louis CK, Robert Smigel, Bob Odenkirk and shared an office with Andy Richter.  After the first year, Marsh became head writer and then moved back to Los Angeles to Executive Produce "Just Shoot Me" and a host of other TV shows. It was just announced that Marsh will be writing a TV show with Jamie Foxx called "Dad, Stop Embarrassing Me" for TBS.

Lecture on Egypt's Hold on the Greek Imagination by Marsh McCall. Ma(November 5, 2007)

Alexander's Predecessors: The Greek World before Macedonian Dominance lecture by Marsh McCall. (October 28, 2007)

Marsh McCall, professor of classics in the School of Humanities and Sciences, was the founding dean of the Continuing Studies Program and served in that position for 11 years. In this course, he discusses the core ethical beliefs of Socrates, Plato, and others.

Marsh McCall, professor of classics in the School of Humanities and Sciences, was the founding dean of the Continuing Studies Program and served in that position for 11 years. In this course, he discusses the core ethical beliefs of Socrates, Plato, and others.