The Messy City Podcast

I get personal in this episode, in order to ask questions about the nature of what is called the “housing crisis.” Are we all just doom-pilling way too much?As a case study, I talk through the life and history of my parents, and discuss whether or not their life and lifestyle is still available today. I discuss house sizes, mortgage rates, lifestyle choices, lifestyle inflation, and more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”AI TranscriptIntroductionWelcome back to The Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm going to do something a little different today and just talk without a guest about the topic of housing in particular and how it ties into a few other kind of hobby courses of mine. Why Challenge the Housing NarrativeReally what I want to spend some time doing is taking a contrarian view of how we talk about the so-called housing crisis. And in one sense, this is kind of fun for me to do. One of the things I really loved about my father is when we would have our discussions or debates in the family about various things that were going on, he would often take an opposite view of Almost just for the sport of it. And the truth is, there are a lot of times he was so good at it, you didn't really know if he felt that way or not. Because he could do really well to argue multiple sides of an argument. And that was really a lot of fun. It was an education for me. It's something I wish more people would just do generally and try to see an issue from multiple perspectives and try to steel man different perspectives or perspectives that are different from your own. And so I've kind of taken to obviously do that if you know me at all.You know I've done that a fair amount in my own life. Not nearly as good as my father was at it, but it has been fun to do occasionally. And I really wanted to apply this to the topic of housing. And there's a couple of reasons for this. And this also ties into a story. I'm going to tell you a little bit of a story about my parents and how they grew up and their trajectory through life, because I think it's actually very relevant to this topic. And whether or not we have a housing crisis at all in America, or if we do, what is the actual nature of of that crisis. And I want to talk about this because I just see so much online and in person conversation that I just feel like there are too many people, especially too many young people that have been kind of doom pilled on life today and life in America generally.And the thing that I want to start out that I really want to propose to everybody and talk about is the life that my parents had And their trajectory through life is still available today. It is absolutely and unequivocally still available to anyone who wants to choose the life that they lived. And in my opinion, obviously, I knew them really well. In my opinion, they had a tremendous life. They had a great life. They've both passed on in recent years. And so I have to talk in the past tense. But by any measure that matters, they had a great life. They lived well into their 80s. They had four kids. We actually all like each other. So it's not just like a, you know, there are some families where you can say, well, I love my family. But as my brother used to say, or after my dad passed, he would say, you know, that... We didn't just love our parents, we really liked our parents.And I think if you're fortunate to be in a family like that, you know a little bit of what I'm talking about. And the four of us as children all... We get along. We're still all friends with each other and get along. We enjoy being together. We're all very different people with different interests and different worldviews. In some senses, we had pretty different childhoods, interestingly enough, because there's a big age spread in our family. So my parents had four kids that they raised. They had a long, stable marriage. They were able to get consecutively better houses as they aged. And then by the time they hit retirement age, they had saved enough money to be able to do other things that they wanted to do. Along the way, they traveled when they wanted to. They really wanted to get out and see the country, see the world.When we were young, that traveling mostly involved just driving around the United States and going to national parks and big cities and seeing the sights. As they got older and had a little bit more disposable income, they would join tour groups and go or sometimes with family to foreign countries and places they really wanted to visit. And I want to give you some context because my parents were not people that grew up with money at all. And I'm going to share some of this because I think it's important to understand. How they came to be where they were and some of the choices they made and how it might impact choices that young people especially could make today.My Parents' StoryMy mom grew up very poor. She spent a part of her childhood living in a housing project in Syracuse, New York. And she was one of five kids and they, you know, her whole childhood they never had any money for much of anything. And they often lived in not the greatest part of town, in Syracuse, even when they got out of the housing project. And my dad grew up in a small town in Kansas called Baser, which is just outside the Kansas City area. But at the time when he was growing up, it was a dusty little town of like 600 people. And, again, one of five kids. And his dad was an auto mechanic, had his own garage, but also just, you know, like people do in Little Towns, did a little bit of everything. He drove a school bus. We helped out with the mail. We did a lot of different things in the town. But it's not like they ever really had any money.My Uncle George, one of my dad's brothers, used to say that they were all poor, but they didn't know it. And part of that is the nature of living in a small rural community. They had a lot of spare time and freedom to roam. And so they probably were able to, you know, occupy themselves with a lot of things that maybe other kids weren't. My mom's father, my mom's parents had a really difficult marriage. My grandfather, her father basically worked in a deli in Syracuse and he And so he worked in a Jewish deli. He was a very, very personable guy, made a lot of his own, made his own corned beef and bagels and everything. And a lot of the customers liked him, but it's not like he ever really made a lot of money. And he and his wife, my grandmother, had a really difficult time, eventually ended up divorcing.And my parents ended up meeting each other in sort of a star-crossed romance that I don't really have time to tell the entire story. But it ended up that they met when my mom was visiting a friend in Leavenworth, Kansas. And... Not too long after that, a romance ensued and eventually a marriage. My parents were born in 1935 and 36, so they're not boomers. They're sort of, I guess, what you would call as greatest generation. But they were too young to be deeply invested in the Great Depression or World War II. They were little kids, really, when all that was going on. So I guess in a sense what you could say is they had the cultural memory of those things. They grew up understanding what life was like in the Great Depression. They grew up poor. They grew up during the war and they knew all that that was going on and they were very well attuned to it, but they weren't part of it.And I think like a lot of people who grew up in that era, they were really affected, especially by the poverty of what was happening. So one of the things that we used to always say about my mom is she could stretch a nickel like anybody's business. She was frugal her entire life. And that really came from growing up with next to nothing. And then for many years... After they were married and started having kids, they were living off basically one salary, not like a big salary or anything, for a long time. And so my mom really had to stretch everything to make ends meet. I'm going to come back to the housing part of this because I think there's some importance to all this.The Housing LadderMy parents got married in 1957, on Christmas Eve of 1957, and then right after that, flew off to Germany. My dad at the time, 21, 22 years old, he had been working a little bit, but he decided he wanted to enlist in the Army, and they spent two years in the Army. He was basically sent off to Germany. And so obviously, you know, late 50s, a great time to be sent off to Germany. No active fighting or anything going on. And they spent two years there. My oldest sister was born in Germany. And then my next sister, I guess you could say, was conceived in Germany. And... And then born back here in the United States when they came back. So by the time they came back to the United States, it's about 1960, and they've got two little kids. And at that time, shortly after they bought their first house, which was in a not so great part of the Kansas City area. It was in Kansas City, Kansas.It was not a terrible area, but not like the greatest. And they bought a small house. And I've had some trouble finding out the exact details in this house, but I think it was probably a two or three bedroom with one bath. It's since been added on to, so it's hard for me to know exactly. But in this period of time, 1960 or so, that would have been their first house. And, you know, my siblings are just going to really... I want to mock my lack of understanding on some of these details, but I think by the time they left that house, my brother had also been born. So there were three kids there. And I want to trace this trajectory a little bit. There's a story here that I think we don't talk enough about that was very common and kind of understood in my parents' era. Which was the idea of buying a small house. New houses were all generally smaller than they are today.There's no question about that. We've had a lot of growth in the average size of houses. So houses were smaller. But it was also kind of understood that you were going to buy... A small house, you were going to build some equity in that, and then you would eventually buy a bigger house. And as you went through the progression of life, as you could afford more, you would buy more. And I'm not entirely sure how... I see a lot more people who are looking to buy their first house who want it all right away. They want that four-bedroom house at the right price, and they're unhappy that they can't get that. I don't want to overgeneralize, but this was something that was really common, certainly in my parents' era. So my dad, after he came back from the Army, he ended up working for a company called Wilson Foods. Wilson Foods was a meatpacking company.So at the time, one of what they called, I think, the big five meatpacking companies that were in the United States that dominated the field was, Wilson's was headquartered in Oklahoma City, but it had plants all over the Midwest. And so he started out as a clerk in the office in Kansas City. So he was on a management track, not on the factory track, but he started at a very entry level position. And then the way it kind of worked in our family and with that company was Again, this was an era where people tended to be a lot more loyal to a certain company. And there was more the idea that you find a good company to work for and you might spend your whole career there. So whenever he wanted a promotion or had the opportunity for a promotion, we typically had to move. So this story is going to sound a little crazy because we moved a lot.And people often thought that we were like a military family, that we were military brats. And we used to say, no, we're not military, we're meatpacking. And of course, people didn't have any idea what we're talking about, but another just little inside joke we had. So I want to talk a little bit as we trace this and think about house size, but also mortgage rates. Because as we talk about housing availability today, especially for sale housing, we're really stuck on the conversation about house size and about mortgage rates. Well, I think it's interesting to look at the trajectory that my parents went through and something very similar to millions of people in that generation today. Went through as they started to move on. So I think it was aboutMortgage Rates in Historical Context1966 or so that we moved to Omaha. Uh, and I went back and I just did some historical, uh, tracking of, uh, mortgage, typical mortgage rates in 1966, the typical mortgage rate was about 6%. So that's really not very far off from where we are today. Uh, depending on what you're looking at today, A lot of the standard kind of 30-year mortgage rates are around 6.5%. It fluctuates from week to week, month to month, but we've kind of been in that zone now for two or three years. And the conversation is very much about how high the mortgage rates are. Um, because we had such a sustained period of very low mortgage rates, such that people like myself, when, uh, we purchased and we, when ultimately refinanced our house in 2021, I think our mortgages, our rate is like 2.75%. So we had millions and millions of mortgages at like 3% or under. And then obviously the rates, uh, went up dramatically.Uh, they went up very, very quickly. Some of the quickest in history. And they've more or less settled into where they are the last two or three years, which is about 6.5%. But again, if you look back historically, one of the stories you can tell is that 6.5% is not like an unusually high mortgage rate. It's just not. You know, I know nobody wants to pay more than, you know... And so why don't I track here, just by way of example, some of the moves my family made. 1966, that more average mortgage rate was about 6%. In 1970, we moved from Omaha to Dell City, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma City. And the average mortgage rates then were closer to 8%. In 1972, we moved to Oklahoma City itself, and the rates came down a little bit, about 7.4%. In and around 1973, then we moved to Overland Park, Kansas, and mortgage rates had gone up again, a little bit more, closer to 8%.In 1975-ish, maybe 76, we moved to Albert Lee, Minnesota, where there was a meatpacking plant that my dad became the superintendent for. So this started an era where mortgage rates were really rough. So in 75, the average rate was about 9%. It went up from there. You know, in 1980, it was over, in 1980, it was almost 14%. 1984, my parents were able to, my dad was able to get a job in Marshall, Missouri. So we left Albert Lee and moved to Marshall. 84, it was still 13.88% average mortgage rate. And then by the end of that decade, 1990 had come down to about 10 and a quarter percent. And then 94, my parents, right around that period where my parents, um, Bought their final house in Lenexa, Kansas in their retirement. They weren't quite retired yet. That's a different story. But in 94, it was about 8%. And so there was a little blip again in 95 or so is about when I bought my first house.That was about eight and a half percent was a typical rate. And then it kind of went on a straight line down more or less from 1995 till about 2021 down to about that three percent rate. And so, again, this is kind of, you know, it's a bit of a long story. But if you can trace these things historically, you can see that the expectation of paying a six, six and a half, seven percent interest rate is just historically not that high. Now, I know historic doesn't matter when you're trying to buy a house today and they're not as much churn in the housing market. But I mean, that's just part of the reality that many, many families paid much higher mortgage rates. Now, what about the houses themselves? Well, this is also interesting. When we lived in Omaha, That's where I was born in 1969. Our house was a three bedroom, one bath ranch with a basement. Um, uh, sort of like a basement playroom.Uh, that was very typical for that era. So there were six of us living in a three bedroom, one bath house. When we moved to Oklahoma, the first house we had was three bedrooms, one and a half baths. And then when we moved to Oklahoma city, again, sort of within the same Metro at that point was our first four bedroom house. So here we are early seventies. Uh, my parents at that point had been married, uh, For 15 years, they had four kids at home. The oldest was now in high school or about high school age. And that was our first four bedroom house. And I think we had two and a half baths in that one. When we moved back to the Kansas City area in 73-ish, we also had a four-bedroom house. So that was a more comfortable kind of a split-level house at that point. And we're getting to the point there where almost all of us had our own bedrooms, but not all of us.I shared a bedroom with my brother in that house. I shared a bedroom with my brother for quite a long time. And when we moved to Minnesota in the mid-70s and then lived there for about eight years, we had a ranch house in Albert Lea. Housing costs everything. I will say this was my parents' experience of living in Minnesota was everything was a lot more expensive than they were used to. You couldn't, in their opinion, couldn't get as much house for your money. The taxes were a lot higher in Minnesota than in other states. The utility costs were higher. And so we had a ranch house that I think had three bedrooms and then it had a finished basement that we finished. And We put a bedroom in the finished basement that would not meet code today. It did not have the proper exiting. But that was something we did. And it was to the point where Minnesota, the winters could be pretty harsh.And so we would commonly close off the family room for the winter in Minnesota and just not use it. We had another room that had a TV where we spent the winter with But again, this is just kind of indicative of the frugal mindset that my parents had. AndLifestyle and FrugalityI want to say that because I think it's important when you're thinking about lifestyle differences in their generation versus today. And I'm not here to pass judgment on anybody necessarily necessarily. But that frugal lifestyle that they lived for many, many years enabled them to have the things that they wanted to have and do the things that they wanted to do. So what are some examples of that? Well, we almost never ate out. So I can barely even remember times as a kid that we would go out to a restaurant. My mom bought generic brands of food. She used coupons regularly. When we took vacations as a family, they were typically driving vacations. And my mom would pack a cooler full of food and we would stop at highway rest areas and eat our meals there. And we stayed in very cheap motels. Sometimes there was camping, not a lot. My mom did not like camping. But...And I'm here to tell you my memories of those trips were great. As a kid, I loved those trips. We would start, you know, for example, in Minnesota and we would drive all the way to the West Coast and we would go to the national parks in Washington State and Oregon and, you know, went to Redwoods National Park in Northern California. Or we would start in Minnesota and we would drive all the way to Disney World and we would hit sites along the way. And to me, those trips were magical and wonderful and a lot of fun. And I think for my parents, they were really great trips as well. But we did things on the cheap. And we just did not waste a lot of money on things. But it didn't stop my parents from Seeing the things they wanted to see and enjoying the things that they wanted to enjoy in life.And today, the term that we have for kind of that approach, because we have to have a term for everything, is FIRE or FI, Financial Independence or Financial Independence Retire Early. And so that's become kind of a thing that quite a number of people have latched onto. Which is terrific. And I'm a big fan of a lot of people in that world. It's also true that that was just kind of the way life was for an awful lot of people of a previous era. And that was just life. I remember my dad telling me one time that they never saved any money or weren't able to save any money until he was about 50 years old. And he had, you know, by the time he was 50 years old, at that point, he'd had decent jobs. And my mom started, she worked when she could in between raising four kids.And so as the kids started becoming more self-sufficient, she was able to work different jobs and bring in some extra money. But yeah, he had told me they really were almost never able to save money until, frankly, we moved back to Marshall, Missouri, and he had a better job. And things were cheaper. They felt like they got a big pay increase when they left Minnesota and moved to Missouri. And so not long after that, then when they were able to retire, even in retirement, even at that point when they had Enough retirement income to rely on. My mom still could never, she just did not have it in her to like overspend for anything. And she still kind of questioned every purchase that she made. But they were also really happy people. It's funny how we have often such a consumerist mindset that we feel like if we're not consuming a lot of things, that means you're not happy.My parents were very social. They had a ton of friends. They stayed in touch with their families, an extended family. And they were just very active, fun, social people. So not being able to spend a ton of money just didn't stop them from doing things. By the time that I was in high school, my siblings were all out of the house. My oldest sister was already married. Teresa was well on her way in her education and career. Dean was also already well on his way in his college education and then later working after college. But I was actually the first one that they were even able to help with a little bit of money for going to college, which of course my siblings gave me a lot of crap about. And would call me spoiled. But that was just the first time that my parents had had enough little extra money to even be able to help any of their kids at that stage.What This Means TodaySo it's just really, to me, a story of living what at that time was a pretty patently kind of common or normal life, which was you buy a small place. Maybe you start in not the greatest part of town. And then eventually you start making more money and you work your way up until you can buy bigger places and nicer places. And I think this is a story we just don't talk about very much. As your family grows, as you grow in your career, you can afford more of a house. I think there's this sometimes doom-pilling that that's just not possible today. I wanted to test this a little bit, and I just did a little bit of playing around on Zillow. Looking at what houses were available that were anything similar to what my parents might have bought as their first couple of houses.Lo and behold, in some areas that are not the nicest, newest, greatest part of town, but not bad areas, you can find those small two and three bedroom houses, at least in my metro area here in Kansas City. For $250,000 to $300,000. And there's nothing wrong with these houses. They're smaller than normal. They're not a big four-bedroom, four-bath house. But they're perfectly livable homes in decent areas. If you want to go to even less fashionable places, you can find that same house. And houses that have been remodeled for under $200,000. So, you know, yeah, you're probably going to deal with higher crime. Maybe the schools aren't, it's not the school district you want to be in, but these are livable houses that are there. And they're also the kind of places like they're not, they're not horrid places to live.Like if you got some of your friends and you all convinced each other to all move to that part of a town, you could, you could make it better by buying these properties, uh, and real estate, um, And, you know, we don't like to talk about this very much as Americans, but the truth is by like global standards, any of these houses are very luxurious. We're all very lucky to live in a place where we could live, where you could own like a two bedroom, one bath house that is modern and nice with great appliances and everything else and complain about it, that you really wish you had more. So anyway, here's a few of the numbers. Just out of curiosity, if you're wondering, if you take like a $250,000 house, if you put 5% down on it, that's $12,500. And if you have a mortgage rate at 6.65%, that's about $2,000 a month with taxes and insurance.So I'm here to tell you that $2,000 a month is cheaper than almost all of the brand new, quote unquote, luxury apartments. That are all over my city that are renting with no problem. And I know they've got a pool and they've got a fitness center, but you're also paying somebody else to live there. You're not building any kind of wealth or equity for yourself. That's the sort of thing, that's the sort of a house that you can easily do on a salary of $80,000 a year, whether it's one person or combined. And by the way, I just, I was curious about this. The average 25 year old in my metro area makes 40,000 bucks a year. So you put two 25 year old salaries together, average ones, that's 80 a year. You can buy that house. And then you can start on that process that is similar to what my parents were on.And so again, I, you know, If you were to tell me, I'm not here today to argue that there aren't changes that need to be made in our cities with our regulatory apparatus or any of that. If you've listened to this podcast at all over the last few years, you know how passionate I am about all of that. I am very much in the camp that the administrative and regulatory apparatus that we created in the 20th century for our cities has failed by every measure. That doesn't mean the people in them are necessarily bad people or dumb or anything like that. It just means that we have, we created systems that just do not work and do not produce good outcomes. And any rational person or group should be able to say, we need to junk that and start over and rethink what we're doing.And so I'm very much in that camp that there's an awful lot of what we created in the 19-teens and 20s in terms of the city planning apparatus and zoning that has been a complete failure. And we need to start over, rethink all that. It's not working. So, you know, I have that as a baseline, but I just don't think so many I don't think especially young people should be so black-pilled on everything or doom-pilled on everything. The opportunities that previous generations had are still available. Now, are they going to be available everywhere in every market for every career path? No. I mean, I get it if you live in really high-cost markets like San Francisco, New York, Seattle, LA, wherever. I have no doubt it's a lot harder. I do think there probably are less fashionable places that people overlook. That would probably be just fine.I have no doubt that that's the case in every city in the country, every region in the country. There are perfectly nice houses, but they're not the newest, most fashionable, cool location. And, and we have had such a lifestyle inflation. We don't want to necessarily go there. I get that. But the truth, the question is, do you want to get there or not? Do you want to start on that path or not? And the other thing I would tie into that is like I've mentioned on multiple podcasts here, let's say that you don't want to do that two bedroom, one bath house. You want something a little bigger. Well, you could also combine it with the house hacking approach, which I have done in my lifetime, multiple times. The first house I bought was actually built as a single family house in the 19 teens. But by the time I bought it, it was actually a triplex. It was one unit per floor.And I lived on one floor and rented out the other two. It was not in great condition. I got it pretty cheap. It was not in the best neighborhood at the time, but I got a good deal on it. I put a lot of sweat equity and work into improving it and was eventually able to sell it for a good profit and move on to the next house, which was much nicer and where I also house hacked. In that case, I had an apartment over the garage, what we call an ADU today, that I finished out as an apartment and I rented that out. And helped offset the mortgage. So there are plenty of ways that you can get creative. You could buy a three-bedroom house and rent a room out to a friend or a family member or somebody else. There are ways that you can leverage house hacking to get into the house that you might want sooner. But the main message I would have is that those things are still possible.Practical AdviceThe basics that enabled previous generations to live a good life in this country are still here. If you have a strong sense of family, if you get educated or have a trade or a skill that is tangible, that is marketable, for example, try not to enter a field of work that is overly academic or philosophical in nature. You need to have a real skill. If you have a good work ethic, If you do get married, stay married. Again, I'm not going to moralize on any of that, but the data is super clear that people who get married and stay married almost always end up in the middle class or better in this country. Make yourself valuable to others, you know, from family to neighbors. Get involved in your community in some fashion, you know, in the real world and Be frugal. Save your money. Don't waste it until you can afford to waste it.And if you have any sense of frugality when you're a younger person and you can put money away in your 20s and 30s, you will get older. And by the time you hit your 40s, 50s, or 60s, you're going to find you're going to have maybe some money, more disposable income, At that point that you can really enjoy and you're still young enough to enjoy it. And health care these days is so good and health science is so good that you should be able to stay healthy for a much longer period of time. Buy a small house, take care of it, and then either add to it or sell it and buy a bigger one when you can. That is part of the process that we just don't talk very much about today. So I think in general, I would suggest let's stay away from, try not to lean too much into doomerism.Regardless of your own personal feelings, you know, how you see the world today or not, focus on yourself, what you can control, and what's possible. And figure out how to create your own life trajectory that is valuable and great for you.What's NextI'm going to tackle a couple other subjects in future episodes. I want to talk a little bit more about how I think the... The administrative and regulatory processes we created over 100 years ago have failed us and what's to be done about that, like what's a different idea or path. And then I also want to touch on a little bit, there's a whole other subject. There's a big part of what we call the housing crisis that is really driven by a series of policy choices we've made for the last 50 years or so. That have really benefited a small number of cities and the professional class in those cities. And it's really hard to uncouple these realities that we have what a lot of people have described elite overproduction today. We have been emphasizing for 50 years to tell everybody to go to college and get a degree, any degree. And I understand why we did that at the time.I went to college and I think going to college to get a degree. To go for higher education and get a really great skill is a great thing to do. But we have a lot of people who went to college and don't really have still very marketable skills or degrees. And they're all kind of following a path that I think they were told to follow by parents and grandparents and counselors, which was go to college, go move to one of these really great cities where there's a lot of jobs for college graduates. And starting your path and what you end up with is you have too many people chasing housing and jobs in too few cities.That has led to a lot of what we talk about as the housing crisis, but there's the flip side of that we don't talk very much about, which I'll also delve into in a future episode, which, in my opinion, is the true housing crisis, and that is that we have too many places in our country that have been in terminal decline for decades. They often are well located neighborhoods. Or well-located communities, but they have been dying. And this proliferation of dying and derelict communities and neighborhoods is really at the heart of a terrible, terrible problem where people are just more bent on trying to figure out survival. Because there's not an economy to attach themselves to that gives hope for the future. So we've got two sides of the same coin with very different concerns.One is we have an awful lot of people chasing a certain lifestyle in a very small number of places that is driving price increases in those places. And then we have actually a much larger number of places that have basically been abandoned. Some that could really have hope for the future and others that there are not great answers for, at least today. And that's a subject that I'll try to tackle a little bit more for a future day. So at any rate, I hope this has been interesting for you. If you've listened to this podcast at all since I've been doing it, you know I actually really enjoy talking about my family and talking with my family members. And I've had my brother and one of my sisters on here before. And I'll be having my brother on again very soon because he's got a new book out that I think you'll be actually very interested in. So that's all for today.I hope everybody's having a good summer and we're dealing with the full breadth of the Midwest heat at the moment, but it'll be over soon and then fall is right around the corner and on into another year. Thanks so much for listening. As always, if you enjoy it, please hit like, leave a review, follow, whatever it is. I am terrible about marketing this podcast since it's something that is basically a hobby for me. But if you enjoy it, please help me out and help spread the word. Thanks so much. Bye. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Farewell, farewell with a friend, farewell. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Eric Kronberg is back again, to dive deeper into the topics of housing choice, scale and essentially - what works and what doesn't. Eric's firm, Kronberg Urbanists & Architects, produces some of the routinely best graphic content to explain these complex issues. In this episode, in particular we discuss his updated Housing Choice Catalog, which is a tour de force of a document for anyone remotely interested in these issues.We discuss how to implement change, what some of the more important changes, are, and how to do this in real American towns and places. We also hit on one of my favorite topics, which is a discussion of what scales more quickly: small-scale infill or large multifamily/mixed-use projects.If you stick with us, you'll also learn about the model to have a successful neighborhood center built around Homer Simpson's favorite things.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Stand by for a very Kansas City-focused episode. For this one, Abby Newsham and I were invited to record a live podcast during KC Design Week, at the Kansas City Art Institute. Abby now hosts the Unconventional Urbanism podcast.While there's some inside baseball in here for Kansas City people, we also cover issues that are germane to cities all over, including:* development / redevelopment issues in urban core communities* elimination of minimum parking regulations* creating high-value pedestrian amenities* catalytic large projects* why it's important to have a growth mentality* the critical issue of public safety in urban communitiesFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

The tale of Route 66 might seem like just a tale of freedom on the road, the great American desire for exploration, and our love affair with the car. And it is all that. But it's also much more. It's about the cities, towns and unique places all along the route and their stories.Chris Elisara and John Paget are sharing those stories, in a 100th anniversary documentary about Route 66. I happened to catch up with them in Springfield, Missouri, which is where Route 66 was in some part given birth. Chris and John own First and Main Films, and have their own love affair with telling stories of underdog cities and towns. We crossed paths originally with the New Urbanism Film Festival, which has now evolved into something much bigger called the Better Cities Film Festival, based in Detroit.Be sure to catch their work about Route 66, something that has occupied them for something close to a lifetime, and which tells us so much about America's history and our cities and towns.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes a local story is just that - a local story. And sometimes it transcends. Yes, Mike Zeller is very much rooted in Kansas City, and this is a very local story about how to take advantage of our long-overlooked river assets.But this story is really so much more than all that. This is about finding value in what other people might not see; about perseverance; about not giving up when so many others would on a “crazy” idea. More than anything, this is about not giving up on yourself. The Rock Island Bridge in Kansas City may indeed become a local landmark - I believe it's well on the way. But this is so much more about having confidence in yourself and your ideas, and not assuming the “experts” and the “professionals” have it all figured out. How many times have you said, “someone should do something with that?” Maybe that someone is you.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Every so often, an idea comes along that makes so much sense it makes you wonder - why haven't we been talking more about this? In that vein comes today's guest, Eli Smith, who is pioneering something called the Faith-Based Housing Initiative.Eli describes it well, but there's a fascinating juncture here of issues related to churches and faith institutions of all kinds; the societal issues around loneliness; and the lack of housing - especially meaningful, community-based housing.Eli and his partners help cohorts of faith-based institutions in certain markets to identify how they can develop housing themselves, often on excess land they aren't using. While this runs up against a whole other set of issues that churches and temples face, it offers a glimpse at something very hopeful as well.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Zach Molzer is 25, and he wants you to know that's an advantage. His team is young, energetic, and optimistic. His story of quickly becoming a developer with impact in Kansas City shows us that you don't need to have decades of experience. You just need to want to do it badly, and get others excited about your vision.In just a couple of short years, Zach has created a company, undertaken two very complex redevelopment projects, created a huge presence on social media, built a bus stop out of an actual bus, connected with local elected officials, and is gearing up for much more. I hope you find inspiration in how Zach relates to us, that you can just do things. You don't need permission, you don't need the approval of a committee - you can just decide to do something, and pursue it relentlessly.For those of us that are frequently skeptical of the value of social media, Zach also offers a lesson in how to use the technology to great advantage. Check out his Twitter/X page or YouTube for more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Bobby Fijan doesn't want you to give up on families living in cities. One thing he said in this episode that really stuck out with me, “People tolerate disorder less when kids are around.” I think that's right on, and that we too easily acquiesce to the notion that cities are just for the young, or the retired. Bobby, like many of my guests, isn't content to just talk about the issues. He's become relentless in his pursuit of the best family-friendly floor plans for urban living, and has now taken that to the creation of the American Housing Corporation. Their motto might as well be, “rowhouses for all.” Bobby and his partners are pursuing true vertical integration of a nationwide development company, with the goal of doing really great urban infill housing. Can they do it? I wouldn't bet against them.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Social media is an unlikely place to find truly positive and optimistic people. But occasionally you find one. Today's example: the charming and determined Coby Lefkowitz, whose relentless optimism can only rub off on you.Coby is a developer in New York state, and a prolific writer, poster and speaker on the value of beauty in the built environment. He's written a book called “Building Optimism” and has a Substack by the same name. In his Substack, you can read more about his forthcoming project in Kingston, NY, and what all he's trying to accomplish.Coby and I discuss the role of optimism in a longer, healthier life, whether or not building beautifully is actually more expensive, and the intriguing benefits of thinking of your social media audience as just yourself and your Mom. Coby's story is also a great example of how a young person can gain valuable experience working for someone else for a few years, grinding it out, and refining your skills before embarking on your own.You can find Coby on X/Twitter here.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We take a break from our routine conversations today to have some fun, and talk about the wonders of travel hacking with my sister, Cindy Weir. Cindy epitomizes how to really leverage having a system for travel hacking, as she made the most of her small business to rack up points. It's paid off incredibly for her, as she's traveled to 22 countries in just the last five years, in addition to doing so in style.We go over how she got there, some of the many little tips and tricks we've learned over the years, and even share insider knowledge on airline lounges, lodging, and more.Are you someone that loves to travel? Do you own a small business or have an active side hustle? If you can say yes to both of those, then you need to listen to how Cindy it, and you can as well.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Longtime friend-of-the-pod Abby Newsham returns, on her hiatus from the popular Upzoned podcast. Abby is a practicing planner in Kansas City with Olsson Associates. Abby is very active working with communities leading planning charrettes, and we talk at length about what a charrette actually is, the value of it, and why doing charrettes can actually give you hope that people can solve problems together.Then we talk about Billy Cooney's article that was republished in Southern Urbanism, called, “Zoning Won't Save Us,” which is basically on piece on why we over-rely on technocratic solutions to problems that are actually very human. I might say, you can't solve a culture problem with a technical manual.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the perils of being in a profession or field for many years is how you see beyond simple dualities. By that I mean, you hear people argue confidently and vehemently about X vs Y, but you know there's actually a Z they're not even thinking about. Sometimes people talk about this as a “third way” solution. I confess that my whole life and career I've mostly been interested in those “third” ways, since I find they tend to have much more wisdom and insight than the other two.This came to mind recently when I was very kindly asked to speak with a group from ULI-Nashville about starter homes - the need, the barriers and the solutions. Because I can't help myself, I opted to talk more about what I think we mean by starter homes, and some options for them that don't get enough play in the conversation.This episode is a longer version of that talk, including the three different ways I look at starter homes. The issue is very timely, and it's critical. We're having a terrible time getting people into home ownership right now. A lot of this I covered in a previous conversation with Charlie Bilello, on the financial causes and barriers. But I'm at heart still an architect, so I think a lot about buildings and building types as part of this, and search for ways to talk about the problem in concrete terms.Let me know what you think in the comments. What type of starter home do you wish to have, or did you have? How about your parents and grandparents? What is truly missing in the marketplace, and how do we get to solutions in your opinion?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the great trends in housing from recent decades has been the revived interest in micro-communities, especially those organized around shared courtyards. I first started to learn about this in the late 1990s, and am delighted to say it's really picked up steam since then.Ross Chapin has been at the forefront of all this, and taught many of us how to do it well. In this episode, Ross talks about how in some sense he accidentally got into doing this kind of work, how it changed his practice, and then importantly we explore key approaches to design and details that make it all work.Ross likes to say, “If you're in your happy place, you're going to sing.” But do we achieve that just by lining up a bunch of buildings around a lawn space? No, the details really matter, and Ross takes us through how to balance security and connection, how to think about layers of space, and how to design small homes and spaces that feel great.Every once in a while, I get in trouble with diehard YIMBY (Yes In My Backyard) activists because I insist that design of housing matters, and we need to build housing that actually satisfies human needs. Yes, we need to make it vastly easier to build just about everything. But too often we overlook human well being, and ignore aspects of our human nature that determine success or failure in new developments. Ross Chapin has blazed a path for all of us to better understand this all. Take a listen.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jason Segedy returns for his third appearance on the show, as Jason now works in North Canton, Ohio as the Deputy Director of Administration. Jason has also gotten more active on LinkedIn in recent months, with his usual provocative and insightful thoughts on a variety of topics. I highly suggest you look him up!We hit on why a huge supply of older homes may not be an advantage, especially in a weak housing market, the challenges of population decline (and why people shouldn't be so blase about it), and what it might take to actually recruit people to the region. We also manage to discuss my pet issue as it relates to the management of cities - at what scale is best for communities to operate? What's it like on the inside, working at larger and smaller scales?Jason is also always thoughtful on the big picture and what he sees happening in the culture and the country. We talk about why he thinks this is a big moment for a lot of change.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

After three years of podcasting, I share some thoughts on why I do this, and what I hope to achieve and share. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't - either is fine, really. But my focus is and will continue to be on people who take concrete action, not on obsessive policy wonkery. It's not that policy wonkery doesn't matter - it's just that too many people waste too much time focusing on it, when life has so many more productive ways to pass the day or the years.Similarly, my focus is on the so-called Flyover Country. It's what I care about, it's what I love, it's the people and places I want to succeed. If that's not your cup of tea, if that limits the reach of this Substack and podcast, that's just fine. It's not possible to be all things to all people, and each of us has to find where to direct our intentions. In this episode, I share a story about St. Joseph, Missouri, and how it ties to this focus and a mindset of what really makes a difference in life.Live your life somewhere that needs you and wants you.Build things. Create life and activity. It's what we are meant to do.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

For a guy that never intended to be a developer, Steve Nygren is having a remarkable impact on development and so much more. Steve led the development of Serenbe, which is a “biophilic” community southwest of Atlanta. This story is nothing short of remarkable. Even if nothing more had happened than getting 500+ property owners that control about 60 square miles of land to agree on a framework for future development, that alone would be incredible.But when you start to learn more and experience the town of Serenbe itself, it becomes quickly apparent this is a model worth emulating. Serenbe employs a more historic model of a rural village that is walkable and fairly dense, mixed with land set aside for agriculture and experiencing nature. Along the way, the community has touched the world of regenerative agriculture and New Urbanism both, along with a deep dive into thinking about healthy living.Steve talks about using your influence when you have the opportunity, and how to help the next generation. His book, “Start In Your Own Backyard: Transferring Where We Live with Radical Common Sense” dives deep into this philosophy and work. I would add, he's also got a lot to share about how to bootstrap a large, master planned development.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the mantras of small or incremental development workshops for years has been, “no one is coming to save you.” The solution to your neighborhood's or community's problem isn't some outside force. It's you. A similar mantra has been, “Brooklyn doesn't need your butt.” Make it more colorful at your own leisure. We are often attracted by the allure of the sexy place, but it's the not-sexy places that really need time, attention and effort from people who care.This episode gave me a chance to talk with someone who feels both those mantras deeply, and is doing something about it. Justin Pregont, from Pomeroy Development in Atchison, Kansas has taken up the mantle himself. He's solving problems through real estate in his town, and in other rural towns across the state of Kansas. Justin was eager to see the types of interesting buildings and tenants he saw in bigger markets in his own town. So after realizing no one else was going to do it, he decided to figure it out himself. There's a lot of inspiration, and a lot of hard reality in this episode. Maybe you think, I live in California or New York or Florida - what can I possibly learn from someone in small-town Kansas? Give it a listen, and then let me know.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the most shocking pieces of information I've seen in the last year is how high the average age of all homebuyers has become. Depending on the source, I've seen between 59 and 62 years old. This is the *average* age. We've never seen a housing market quite like this, so I turned to Charlie Bilello, the Chief Market Strategist for the firm Creative Planning to help me understand it better. While I talk at length about the regulatory, design and policy aspects of housing on the podcast, Charlie is an expert in the financial side.We trace a bit of the history of how we changed the idea of housing from shelter to a financial product, and then hit on how those policy changes have created the mess we are in today. Charlie has a wealth of ideas that are admittedly unpopular, but could go to great lengths to fix the housing market over the short and long term.Along the way, we talk about fifty year mortgages, the impact of this issue on everyone under forty years old, the concentration of wealth with Baby Boomers, and why it's so hard to make changes.If you want more from Charlie, check out his excellent YouTube channel.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

About forty years ago, the New Urbanism came on the scene with bold and creative ideas for building entirely new towns. The founders of the movement intended to prove that we could really build beautiful, walkable new places in America, much like some of our historic norms. Those early communities captured incredible attention, far beyond their actual size. And they've influenced a couple generations of people in the planning and development world.But it's also true that most of the new places built were fairly modest in scale. Seaside, Florida, the famous community on the Florida panhandle, is just sixty acres in size. Many other new communities were the size of a suburban subdivision, or a smaller master-planned community. This isn't a knock on the projects, it's just the reality of what could be achieved and who the clients were.In recent years, an even bigger and more audacious proposal has come forward called California Forever. The founders have acquired over 50,000 acres in the Bay Area in Solano County. I speak with Gabriel Metcalf, the Head of Planning, to discuss the plans for this new community - the whys, whats and hows. This is a massive effort, and one that's intentionally trying to renew notions of what can be done in a state that's become famously difficult in which to build.Gabriel and I talk about not just the specifics of the proposed community, but how this effort fits into the historic context of new towns, and what he sees as precedents. Can we still build new places in America that are inspiring and solve 21st century problems? And what do new towns say about our existing cities and their struggles? We discuss all this and more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Andrew Burleson asks us to think about, “what is the system that creates space for people to live?” Systems thinking may seem terribly wonky, and in reality, it is. But systems thinking gave us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and a whole host of ideas that underpin western civilization. Systems thinking was behind the movement that created administrative city planning and zoning in the 19-teens and 20s. YOU might not be thinking about systems, but someone else is. So the question is, what kind of systems do we want and need, that produce the best outcomes for human beings?Andrew is a man of many hats, not the least of which is he's the Board Chair for Strong Towns. Beyond that, he's a terrific thinker in his own right, and writes a Substack called The Post-Suburban Future. This episode is an outgrowth of a post he wrote called, “Could we create land use rules that work better for everyone?” If the episode intrigues you, read the post, too. He goes into even more detail with images there.The main focus of our conversation is a notion I described a few years ago, which is we need to “unleash the swarm” to solve our housing and development issues. Andrew does an exceptional job of describing the problem (all development now is discretionary and professionalized), and that our land use regulations essentially require stasis. Stasis sounds comforting to many, but it actually works against our intentions when practiced in reality.In this episode, we talk about how to de-professionalize housing, which is a phrase I really like, and how to drive incremental change by the context of a block or neighborhood. Andrew's phrase that I love is, “the individual project is small, but the collective output is enormous.” As I reflected on that, it occurred to me that's the entire spirit of the American experience, and one we've gotten away from to our detriment.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Right off the top, I must say I always enjoy talking with Seth Zeren. Seth fits the mold of most of my favorite people, in that he's a deep thinker AND a do-er. His ruminations are baked in the reality of trying to actually build things every day of the week, and he operates from a deep set of principles for placemaking. In other words, he really tries to get things done and done well - not just talk about them. Oh how I wish more people in the world of “advocacy” could be like Seth and also get their hands dirty building and developing. But that's a story for another day.Seth wrote a piece on his Substack, Build the Next Right Thing, not long ago called “Two Great Tastes that Taste Great Together.” In that piece, he outlines what he sees as the strengths and weaknesses of both Strong Towns and the emerging Abundance movement, and how they can learn from and accentuate each other. I found it fascinating enough to want to talk about it all with him.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

A few months ago, we lost Leon Krier, one of the all-time greats in the world of architecture and urban design. I'm joined by Dan Parolek of Opticos Design to reflect on Krier's work and influence, and his personal experiences working with him on multiple projects. Krier's work and his many drawings have been foundational for so many of us that came through the world of New Urbanism. His simple, elegant way of dissecting what's wrong with modern cities angered a lot of people in the architecture and planning establishment, but appealed to so many of us that knew something was wrong. In the end, there's almost nothing about Krier's work that should be controversial. He approached everything from the perspective of what is actually good for human beings. He felt we could and should learn from the acquired wisdom of the past and generations of people before us. That any of that should be controversial says so much about the era in which we live and how the design professions have mutated over the years.If you don't know Krier, I hope this is an introduction. Please go check out his books. They're incredibly easy to understand and read, and many are good for a laugh, too.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Chuck Marohn of Strong Towns joins me in the studio to dive deeply into the world of housing finance and housing policy, fresh on the heels of his book, Escaping the Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis. For an architect and engineer to dive into this world might seem anathema to economists, but we go there anyway. The topics range from the thirty year mortgage and its distortions on the housing market to yield curve control to how social trust impacts the whole conversation. And we ask “do we actually have enough housing?” Coming soon I'll have an episode about Leon Krier and his impact on so many discussions for architecture, planning and design today, but for now Chuck and I talk about one aspect of his ideas: height limits. Naturally, we focus on how that plays out in Washington, D.C.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I've been an avid podcast listener since the early days of podcasting. It's probably one area where I was a bit of an early adopter for technology. My guess is this is in part due to the fact that I grew up listening to a lot of radio, especially radio shows in the car when my parents were driving. So I suppose you can say I've always been interested in the audio side of conversations and entertainment.Back a few years ago, my brother finally nudged me into trying to do a podcast, after he'd gotten his started. His is all about the Mississippi River and the culture, environment and communities along it. Take a listen, it's really good! He's an incredible wealth of information about the river, and was even featured recently on Rick Steves' podcast.But when Dean got me started, I wasn't sure exactly how this would go, or if I'd enjoy having a podcast. Now here I am a few years later, with thousands of subscribers, and a milestone in episode #100. It's been a wild ride, and getting more enjoyable all the time.So for this one, I decided to have some fun with two of my good buddies - Jason Carter-Solomon and Shomari Benton. Both have been on before, and both frequently offer great insights into life as well as the sorts of topics I delve into routinely - planning, development, design and small-scale real estate investment.We take some time on this episode to look back at our own lives, and we get a little personal. They even bring the questions to me, as we discuss our “why” for doing what we do, talk about career regrets, and think about what the future holds for each of us. I hope you enjoy it - we had a lot of fun doing this episode.Thanks so much for listening to these first 100 episodes.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One thing that's really obvious when you talk with Johnny Youssef is that he's just a very positive and happy guy. And, frankly, it's amazing what he's accomplished at a still-young age. Johnny started his journey in Egypt, and eventually landed in Kansas City as a small developer and rental property owner. We talk about how he focused on the not-sexy parts of our region, and quickly built an income portfolio that has served him well.Johnny is the closest thing to a social media star that I've had on the show. In fact, almost everything we talk about can be seen on his channels, and I'd certainly recommend checking out his videos. In particular, his story of buying and renovating and old church here in Midtown KC is fantastic.There's so much to learn from people like Johnny that just get in the game, take risks, and build. It's a spirit we could use a lot more of, and in Johnny's case I can't wait to see what else he accomplishes.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Kevin's note: Apologies on the audio quality. Riverside did something funky to this episode, and I did my best to correct it.We all love to study success, and learn how to emulate it. Allan Branch likes to study failure. He studied it for his businesses, and for his city. Remarkably, it's helped lead Allan to a lot of success in all his endeavors.Allan traces his roots from art school and family entrepreneurship to software and building businesses, to literally building buildings in his hometown. Of course, that's not enough, so Allan decided to run for Mayor as well. And won.There are Allans in every city and town in America. And yet, very few of them actually have his success, or take the initiative to help fix local politics. I wish more would, as we'd all be better for it. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Nolan Gray is the author of the very successful book, “Arbitrary Lines: How Zoning Broke the American City and How to Fix It.” If you're in the planning and zoning world, you've likely heard of it or read it. If you haven't, run right out and do it.Most of this episode focuses on the unique nature of Houston, Texas, and its approach to land use regulation. Often-scorned by planners because the city doesn't have zoning, it actually provides a fascinating alternative to a process we know by now doesn't work very well. And we dissect a few of the fears related to what might happen without zoning.Nolan has a deep knowledge of the history of zoning, and we touch a bit on how things came to be in the US context. Trust me - it's not as boring as it sounds, but it's also really important to know that this is a fairly young idea and institution. My editorial comment has always been: this was all invented by other humans, not all that long ago, and we shouldn't be so afraid of even radical changes. It's not the Ten Commandments, folks.We can dream of a repeal of Euclid v Ambler, even if we never get it. And who knows, we might even get to a result that's actually more democratic in nature than what we have today.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

A developer colleague recently said to me, “I've only lived and worked in an era where cities are getting better. Now, I'm not so sure that's the case anymore.” His comment along with a whole lot of other inputs got me to thinking - what if he's right? Today, I consider a potentially dark path for big American cities. Are we in the midest of a new era of decline and retreat from urban areas? Will this continue? Is the “vibe shift” going to be a good thing or bad thing for people that love and care about big cities?So let's get real, and discuss what it all could mean. I may do a future podcast taking the opposite view, but for now I think it's important to consider the possible downsides of recent trends. Those include cultural forces, but also technological and economic changes, such as the advent of AI.Come with me on a journey to the dark side…Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Mike Hathorne has been around the New Urbanism movement for over twenty years. That means he has that rare combination of idealism, practicality, and persistence. Nowadays, you can find Mike with Visionary Homes in Utah.While the principles of New Urbanism have guided his work for years, Mike has also been on the front lines trying to figure out how to get it all built. Like all of us, he's had successes and failures. But that desire to connect to truly human values and needs continues to drive him forward. Mike and I talk about how the actual types of households in our communities are far more diverse than most realize. And, what that all means for people trying to build new housing. We pause for a minute to discuss the notion of why having diverse households in a neighborhood is actually a good thing, and how it helps communities.The changes in household makeup over the last 70 years or so is very stark, and surprises many people. I've found that most people still assume the 2 parents with kids at home is still the dominant household arrangement. It's not at all, and we take a look at the numbers. For anyone trying to build or develop, or anyone trying to improve their community, this is really important baseline information. We can all imagine that world we might want to have, but we must start and work with the world as it is.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

If you're fortunate and diligent, you'll encounter people in your field that are just supremely knowledgable about the details, and willing to talk about them. Audrey Navarro, the Managing Partner of Clemons Real Estate in Kansas City, is one of those people. I've found Audrey to be incredibly nice and pleasant to talk with, but also very ruthless (in a good way) with the numbers and the realities of real estate and development.In this episode, we trace her path that started from a simple duplex house hack, to now running a company with hundreds of apartments, commercial properties and even a construction arm. I particularly love how she says, “We sell math, not buildings. If you can get creative with the math, you can do just about anything.”Audrey and her firm have also endeavored to work in the “supportive housing” world, and we talk about the trials and tribulations, as well as the possibilities, for anyone taking on that ask. Lastly, we talk about WIRED, which is a very cool effort to encourage women to be more involved in the real estate business.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

You're not going to find too many movies with developers as the hero. For most of the public, their opinion of developers is somewhere below Congress. And that's saying something.I find that all unfortunate, since developers are the ones who build virtually everything in our world - our homes, our offices, our shops, our entertainment. And there's a group of developers who have been undertaking honestly heroic efforts for two or three decases - those trying to build “new urbanist” or walkable projects. Some of these are small, and some quite large, but they're all challenging.Ward Davis is one of those guys. He's been at it in Northwest Arkansas for a couple decades now, and has all the scars to show it. He also has had a lot of success, and he's someone worth learning from when it comes to the ins and out of development. His company is High Street Development, based in Fayetteville, and he pretty much works just in that very fast-growing region.There are a LOT of gems in this episode, so I highly suggest you stick with my lousy audio recording to hear it all. Ward and I talk bout what their approach is with doing “town center” types of projects, how to make money doing it, what is wrong with the development business, and the promise but pitfalls of doing small-scale “incremental” development. In a certain sense, this is a great companion piece to my interview with John Zeanah from Memphis, as they both are trying to figure out how to change our many flawed systems, and get beautiful places built that stand the test of time.I love how Ward says, “There's not a business in the country that looks easier from the outside and is more difficult on the inside.”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

From Iain, whose excellent site you can find at this link:The term 'messy' is a growing one when it comes to cities just now, and it's a refreshing one in what has for the last little while been the domain of the planner, who tends to see the world from the top down. But what makes cities, and indeed a lot of companies, so good is that they embrace what comes from the bottom up.In cities that means what's happening on the street, and how the people are shaping it. In companies it means the front line staff or factory worker being empowered to make changes when they notice something.Anyway, my most recent guest for Challenger cities was Kevin Klinkenberg who has been writing about The Messy City for a while now. So I loved hearing his stories of applying this in his own realm of Kansas City.We talked art walks, roundabouts, neighbourhoods, backyard cottages and the trouble of trying to be neat, tidy and perfect all the time. I suspect people will be really into this one, and a bit thanks to Karen from Strong Towns for making the connection! Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Usually when a Kansas Citian talks about Memphis, it's to discuss their bbq vs ours. And trust me, they do make some good ribs on Memphis. But today we are here to learn about housing and redevelopment. The City of Memphis has taken some solid steps in recent years to reform all manner of codes and processes to enable more and better housing options. John Zeanah joins me to discuss the specifics.There's a lot in here for the policy wonks, and I'm here for it as well. But what I love the most is the attitude displayed by John, and his statement that they want to be problem solvers, not just regulators. What you hear from him is someone not content to check a box, do a plan and let it sit, or issue platitudes. This is what it looks like when people get their hands dirty, and truly work to fix issues that need fixing.The episode I had with Emily Hamilton is a great companion to this one, where she went into detail on State-level reforms for housing policy.For more, here's John's website.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jed Byrne is a man of many hats, but what he really cares about is demystifying real estate development for ordinary people. Jed's podcast, Dirt NC, focuses primarily on issues in North Carolina and especially the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill “Triangle” area. Earlier this year, Jed and a group of people from the local Chamber visited the Kansas City region on a mission to learn from each other. I'm not sure they talked much basketball (Kansas - the birthplace of North Carolina basketball as the saying goes), but they did talk a lot about economic development. And while here, Jed had a chance to check in with our local small development group. We talk about why it's important to have a local ecosystem of small developers like we have, and what he hopes to achieve by having one in the Triangle. Jed also has some insights on what it's like to live in a fast-growing region, vs. the sort of slow and steady growth we have in most Midwestern markets.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and place-making.Jaime's book: “Main Street Mavericks”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today's episode isn't exactly Coughlin's Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg's Rules, but it is full of some life advice I'd like to share for the dog days of Summer. I've long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn't easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.Key link: Symphony in the Flint HillsFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That's a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it's also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren't terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.John Haigh, who's the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison, Kansas, aims to do something about all this. You likely haven't heard of Benedictine before, as it's a small college in a small town in flyover country. But you might want to pay attention to what they're doing now, and what is rumbling up from the grass roots in higher education.We cover a lot in this podcast, including* the importance of learning to draw by hand, in the computer age* What is the impact of AI on the school and the students?* Why this is happening in Catholic schools?* can a college teach architects to become developers?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Why is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn't inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That's a long title and way of saying, she's someone who does a LOT of research into housing policy, and really knows her stuff.I've been in this game long enough to be able to detect people who act like they're serious about housing policy, but really aren't. As in, they really don't much about how housing gets built, who builds it, why they build it, and why they might build more. Emily is not one of those people. She has a clear interest in getting more of all kinds of housing built, to help with the price crunch that exists in so many markets.If you want to talk code reform and housing policy, this is your episode.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Terrell Jolly didn't start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri's Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods that the vast majority of developers avoid, and why he takes on such a difficult task.When I hear TJ talk, I think to myself, this is what our cities need. For a lot of cities in the Midwest in particular, we have a LOT of older homes and buildings that need renovation. We also have people who need affordable places to live. It's people like TJ that figure out how to make it all economical, and are showing us a path towards something that can scale. But as he says, “you gotta have the guts.” It's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart. But it sure does have its rewards.Every city probably has a Terrell Jolly, and every city could use about a dozen more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building. Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it's often not how people in the world of economic development think. In particular, for modest-cost cities like Kansas City and much of the Midwest, affordability in housing has long been a value proposition. How do we retain that as times change, and as we grow? We discuss this, as well as working to improve disinvested parts of our city, and explore the notion of whether or not our urban core is actually growing.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I'm familiar with. For example, “growth doesn't always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven't kept pace with the times.”Jeff Siegler is the man behind the account, and he's built a nice little business on the backs of his tough love and his experience. He denies he's the tough love guy, and he clearly is a likable person. But I'll stick with the meme - I think what he does is try to snap people out of their slumber with some tough love. Jeff says people need to have hard conversations, because when you don't, you end up disappointing vastly more people. I agree. Check out his book, “Your City is Sick,” and his website for more info.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Many of us don't like to think too much about banking and money until we REALLY need to. As an architect, I'm as guilty as anyone as not taking the time to think through the financial side, and to also get easily intimidated by it.But it doesn't have to be this way, truly. Money is just a tool, like any other tool, and it's not hard to learn how to use it and to meet people who can help you become successful with money.Landmark National Bank President & CEO Abby Wendel joins us, along with Commercial Banking Team Leader Jason Carter-Solomon, to talk banking and small-scale real estate development. Jason urges us to think hard about what our why? is in regards to what we're doing. Abby talks a lot about her experience in banking and how a community bank in particular can help small business people become successful. All, of course, while navigating very turbulent times.We talk through a number of challenges people face, including access to capital when getting started, time management for those doing “side hustles” in development, and if there are creative ways to package multiple small projects together from a financing standpoint. You might also learn why Dodge City, KS is a fascinating place.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Patrick Tuohey is the Policy Director and co-founder of a think tank called the Better Cities Project. While his own views are politically right of center, the organization is non partisan and aims to give cities advice on the basics of good governance. He's also an unabashed lover of cities, which is something not common in “Urbanist” circles.We have a wide-ranging discussion, though largely focused on small government, free market principles and how Patrick sees things working or not in cities. We both live in a city that's widely known for the extensive use of tax incentives for development, and we get into some of the challenges and realities of that approach. It's a topic I'd love to explore even further, as it's so embedded in our day to day reality and is very complex. Patrick makes a number of really insightful observations in this episode. As someone who lives in a big city and is always trying to balance the ideal with the practical, it's always fascinating talking with people with a strong sense of principle. It's very easy to get lost in the minutiae of the day to day, and every so often it's helpful to step away and look at the bigger picture.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Rodney Dangerfield once famously said, “golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate.” We won't touch cemeteries in this episode, but we do talk about golf courses. Monte Anderson joins me as we discuss different ways of looking at so-called “obsolete” properties. As a teaser: Monte shares with me what I think is one of the most brilliant ideas I've heard about how to work with old or declining churches. You must listen to understand it.The whole discussion reminded me of something I wrote about years ago:About fifteen years ago, I remember reading a planning study for a corridor in Kansas City, Missouri, where I was living and working at the time. We were working with a client that had some redevelopment ideas in mind, and wanted to see what the officially-adopted plan recommended. Like many planning studies, it had a simple market analysis attached to it, with a look at recent trends in the real estate market and some projections for the future. As most planners know, this is typical plain-vanilla planning 101. The market study informs the plan recommendations, which eventually are codified into zoning and process.One thing in particular struck me at the time: the economist's report bemoaning the “substandard” lot sizes in the area. I had to read it a few times before it became clear the message was that any serious redevelopment would require purchase and combination of many lots into larger development parcels. The notion baked into this was the original lots, many of which were 50 feet wide and around 100 – 150 feet deep (some narrower, some wider), were too small to attract modern, big-boy development. If any developer was ever to be serious about investing, he or she would need something more like what is typical with modern real estate development products. What is typical? Often that means several acres of land in one parcel, so the site can be developed with the necessary large, singular building, sufficient parking, room for storm water improvements, landscaping and lighting. Even in an urban location, the bias toward suburban-style solutions was still very strong, but when urban buildings were desired the thought process was still only a large, single master developer could accomplish transformation. Frankly, most planners and economic developers didn't know of or trust a different model. The design and development professions still largely cling to this approach.Substandard, obsolete, these are words thrown around a lot by planners and economic development officials. But don't buy it. Every property can be repurposed or rethought. In fact, Monte is the only person that's ever made me look at an ugly strip mall and think, “yeah, I could make something cool with this.”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We often don't realize that the “way things are” is just a reflection of some radical change that happened in a previous era. While I'm a firm believer that aspects of human nature haven't really changed much through the millennia, it is true that we've shaped, reshaped, and reshaped our societies over and over again. And the most visible evidence of that change is our cities and towns.Today's discussion is about looking past the way things are, in many dimensions, and realizing that it is possible to make big changes. In fact, it happens at fairly regular intervals whether we want it or not.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Rik Adamski is a man of many hats. But first and foremost, he's someone that cares deeply about the people side of urban planning. So often, planners, architects and developers get mired in the technical side of building community. And of course, we have to, because there's a lot that requires our attention.But in this episode, Rik reminds us that planning is really about people, and about helping people make their own place better. The reason we fall in love with a place is more about what the people create themselves, and not what is imposed from above.As an owner of Ash and Lime, and part of the Storefront Renaissance League, Rik focuses intently on the incremental steps to helping communities. One thing he mentioned in this that I loved is that incremental doesn't necessarily mean small. It just means taking the next series of steps or bets. Kevin's Note: I've had some audio issues recently, I know it. I'm working on it. Thanks for listening regardless.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

From the earliest days of my interest in urban planning, I became very interested in the overlap between design and culture. By that I mean, how cities shape human interaction, and how human interaction shapes cities. Why are some places successful when others aren't, even when they have similar design and planning features? Why do some communities seem so tight and together, when others do not? Is it all just a design problem, as I've been taught?In fact, the obvious answer it's not just a design problem. It's also about how we relate to each other as humans, and the networks we form. Dr. Seth Kaplan is a true expert in this area, having studied and worked with fragile states all over the world. In 2023, he turned his attention to American cities and wrote the book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time.” Seth and I talk in this episode about the overlap between design and a true sense of community. That is, we explore what it takes to create the kind of place that kids have broad independence, where people truly look out for each other, and where people feel deeply invested in its long-term success. I'll tease out one piece, where he talks about the difference between people he is friends with in his neighborhood, versus people he has a relationship with. And, how important that is for a successful place, and for more fulfilled people.Seth can be found here on his LinkedIn page, and you can see some of his writings here.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I had the pleasure of meeting Charles Brewer right when he was starting to get interested in becoming a real estate developer. This was after a very successful short career in the dot-com world, as he was a founder of Mindspring. When he exited, he became interested in New Urbanism, and decided to shift his career toward the building of new, walkable communities.Twenty-plus years later, we get a chance to talk about his journey. And, we get to spend a lot of time discussing Las Catalinas, his remarkable new town on the beach in Costa Rica. I wrote some about Las Catalinas, here, after a recent visit.Charles is especially interesting in that he's a firm believer in many of the principles of New Urbanism, but he's also willing to challenge them and all of us who have worked on these communities. His first project, Glenwood Park in Atlanta, is a fantastic infill development by any realistic measure. Fascinatingly, he calls it “mainstream New Urbanism.” For him, the real challenge and next frontier is figuring out how to create car-free (or mostly car-free) communities. Charles in particular has been very motivated by the experience of kids and families, and how to encourage and allow for more freedom of movement and life for them. I'll also just editorialize and say, his projects are a great testimony to the power of an individual's passion to just get things done, and get them done well. Despite what outsiders and critics might think, these projects are very challenging. Part of the reason we have so few examples like them, is that it takes a rare kind of determination to go against virtually every professional silo in the built environment. Someone used to call this “stick-to-it-ive-ness.” It's a quality I greatly admire in people, and I hope you do as well.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It's truly a rare thing in life to run across people that are uber-talented, thoughtful, and just fantastic human beings. Dhiru Thadani is one of those rare people. An architect, urban designer, author, teacher, and prolific sketch artist, Dhiru has been involved in the New Urbanism movement since the earliest days. He's written multiple books about the famous new town of Seaside, Florida, and we spend a bit of time rehashing some history on this episode for those that are unaware.One of my most enjoyable lines from this talk, was Dhiru relating that “The most original architects have the largest libraries – that's their secret.” In essence, we all steal from each other, and from history. Nothing is original; everything derives from something else. Some may find that statement stifling, but if you truly care about making beautiful places above all else, it's actually liberating.Dhiru and I talk about the possible future evolution of Seaside. Can it, in fact, evolve? Many of us that know and love Seaside as it is have a lot of heartburn with this notion. We hate seeing beloved buildings come down.My editorial, though, is that this line of concern is really just a symptom of an era of horrible architecture. Our ancestors never felt this way, because older buildings (which often were attractive), were replaced by new buildings that were more attractive.That all stopped with the advent of the modern movement in architecture – most notably the “international style.” Now, we just don't have confidence that beauty can be replaced by beauty. We rightly fear that beauty will be replaced by ugliness. But in fact, we can build beautifully, and we have. People like Dhiru have been teaching us how to do so for more than forty years. It's now incumbent on us to keep that fire burning. For inspiration, check out Dhiru's Instagram account, and pick up a pencil and draw.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

The world of architecture is full of megalomanicas, wanna-be stars, and also a whole lot of good people just grinding out beautiful work outside the spotlight. One thing I enjoy with my little platform is shining a light on some of the people that do that beautiful work, and rarely get national attention.Don Powers, of Union Studio in Providence, Rhode Island, has one of those firms. Union Studio has grown over the years to do a lot of different kinds of work, but what I really wanted to focus on for this interview is their work in courtyard housing and affordable housing.Educators and media within the architecture profession will routinely tell us we can't build like the old ways, nor should we. And yes, of course, there's some truth to the fact we have different materials, means and methods now. But Union Studio's work shows us it is in fact possible to produce new buildings that build off of living human traditions, add grace and beauty to the world, and will certainly stand the test of the time. That's as true for higher-end housing as it is for “affordable housing.” Good design is a choice, it's an intention. In this episode, Don walks us through how they've made some of it happen.Give the whole thing a listen, but do remember some key points: fight for those one or two good details on any project, including doors and windows. And, good landscaping is cheap. Don't overlook the importance of simple, but good, site design.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Austin Tunnell is one of the shining stars of a new generation of designer/builders for creative smaller projects, and he also happens to work in the world of mass masonry construction. In this episode, we talk about his journey from accountant to mason and beyond, with his really cool company called Building Culture.Austin now lives and works in the Oklahoma City area, and he's aggressively expanding his scope with a new project called The Townsend. Audio doesn't really do these projects justice. You really need to look these up, and/or see them in person. Not to get too frou-frou, but they touch your soul in a way that most new buildings just do not. Some links below:Podcast with Clay ChapmanPodcast with the Mayor of Oklahoma CityPodcast with Hiatus HomesFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe