The Messy City Podcast

One of the perils of being in a profession or field for many years is how you see beyond simple dualities. By that I mean, you hear people argue confidently and vehemently about X vs Y, but you know there's actually a Z they're not even thinking about. Sometimes people talk about this as a “third way” solution. I confess that my whole life and career I've mostly been interested in those “third” ways, since I find they tend to have much more wisdom and insight than the other two.This came to mind recently when I was very kindly asked to speak with a group from ULI-Nashville about starter homes - the need, the barriers and the solutions. Because I can't help myself, I opted to talk more about what I think we mean by starter homes, and some options for them that don't get enough play in the conversation.This episode is a longer version of that talk, including the three different ways I look at starter homes. The issue is very timely, and it's critical. We're having a terrible time getting people into home ownership right now. A lot of this I covered in a previous conversation with Charlie Bilello, on the financial causes and barriers. But I'm at heart still an architect, so I think a lot about buildings and building types as part of this, and search for ways to talk about the problem in concrete terms.Let me know what you think in the comments. What type of starter home do you wish to have, or did you have? How about your parents and grandparents? What is truly missing in the marketplace, and how do we get to solutions in your opinion?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the great trends in housing from recent decades has been the revived interest in micro-communities, especially those organized around shared courtyards. I first started to learn about this in the late 1990s, and am delighted to say it's really picked up steam since then.Ross Chapin has been at the forefront of all this, and taught many of us how to do it well. In this episode, Ross talks about how in some sense he accidentally got into doing this kind of work, how it changed his practice, and then importantly we explore key approaches to design and details that make it all work.Ross likes to say, “If you're in your happy place, you're going to sing.” But do we achieve that just by lining up a bunch of buildings around a lawn space? No, the details really matter, and Ross takes us through how to balance security and connection, how to think about layers of space, and how to design small homes and spaces that feel great.Every once in a while, I get in trouble with diehard YIMBY (Yes In My Backyard) activists because I insist that design of housing matters, and we need to build housing that actually satisfies human needs. Yes, we need to make it vastly easier to build just about everything. But too often we overlook human well being, and ignore aspects of our human nature that determine success or failure in new developments. Ross Chapin has blazed a path for all of us to better understand this all. Take a listen.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jason Segedy returns for his third appearance on the show, as Jason now works in North Canton, Ohio as the Deputy Director of Administration. Jason has also gotten more active on LinkedIn in recent months, with his usual provocative and insightful thoughts on a variety of topics. I highly suggest you look him up!We hit on why a huge supply of older homes may not be an advantage, especially in a weak housing market, the challenges of population decline (and why people shouldn't be so blase about it), and what it might take to actually recruit people to the region. We also manage to discuss my pet issue as it relates to the management of cities - at what scale is best for communities to operate? What's it like on the inside, working at larger and smaller scales?Jason is also always thoughtful on the big picture and what he sees happening in the culture and the country. We talk about why he thinks this is a big moment for a lot of change.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

After three years of podcasting, I share some thoughts on why I do this, and what I hope to achieve and share. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't - either is fine, really. But my focus is and will continue to be on people who take concrete action, not on obsessive policy wonkery. It's not that policy wonkery doesn't matter - it's just that too many people waste too much time focusing on it, when life has so many more productive ways to pass the day or the years.Similarly, my focus is on the so-called Flyover Country. It's what I care about, it's what I love, it's the people and places I want to succeed. If that's not your cup of tea, if that limits the reach of this Substack and podcast, that's just fine. It's not possible to be all things to all people, and each of us has to find where to direct our intentions. In this episode, I share a story about St. Joseph, Missouri, and how it ties to this focus and a mindset of what really makes a difference in life.Live your life somewhere that needs you and wants you.Build things. Create life and activity. It's what we are meant to do.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

For a guy that never intended to be a developer, Steve Nygren is having a remarkable impact on development and so much more. Steve led the development of Serenbe, which is a “biophilic” community southwest of Atlanta. This story is nothing short of remarkable. Even if nothing more had happened than getting 500+ property owners that control about 60 square miles of land to agree on a framework for future development, that alone would be incredible.But when you start to learn more and experience the town of Serenbe itself, it becomes quickly apparent this is a model worth emulating. Serenbe employs a more historic model of a rural village that is walkable and fairly dense, mixed with land set aside for agriculture and experiencing nature. Along the way, the community has touched the world of regenerative agriculture and New Urbanism both, along with a deep dive into thinking about healthy living.Steve talks about using your influence when you have the opportunity, and how to help the next generation. His book, “Start In Your Own Backyard: Transferring Where We Live with Radical Common Sense” dives deep into this philosophy and work. I would add, he's also got a lot to share about how to bootstrap a large, master planned development.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the mantras of small or incremental development workshops for years has been, “no one is coming to save you.” The solution to your neighborhood's or community's problem isn't some outside force. It's you. A similar mantra has been, “Brooklyn doesn't need your butt.” Make it more colorful at your own leisure. We are often attracted by the allure of the sexy place, but it's the not-sexy places that really need time, attention and effort from people who care.This episode gave me a chance to talk with someone who feels both those mantras deeply, and is doing something about it. Justin Pregont, from Pomeroy Development in Atchison, Kansas has taken up the mantle himself. He's solving problems through real estate in his town, and in other rural towns across the state of Kansas. Justin was eager to see the types of interesting buildings and tenants he saw in bigger markets in his own town. So after realizing no one else was going to do it, he decided to figure it out himself. There's a lot of inspiration, and a lot of hard reality in this episode. Maybe you think, I live in California or New York or Florida - what can I possibly learn from someone in small-town Kansas? Give it a listen, and then let me know.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the most shocking pieces of information I've seen in the last year is how high the average age of all homebuyers has become. Depending on the source, I've seen between 59 and 62 years old. This is the *average* age. We've never seen a housing market quite like this, so I turned to Charlie Bilello, the Chief Market Strategist for the firm Creative Planning to help me understand it better. While I talk at length about the regulatory, design and policy aspects of housing on the podcast, Charlie is an expert in the financial side.We trace a bit of the history of how we changed the idea of housing from shelter to a financial product, and then hit on how those policy changes have created the mess we are in today. Charlie has a wealth of ideas that are admittedly unpopular, but could go to great lengths to fix the housing market over the short and long term.Along the way, we talk about fifty year mortgages, the impact of this issue on everyone under forty years old, the concentration of wealth with Baby Boomers, and why it's so hard to make changes.If you want more from Charlie, check out his excellent YouTube channel.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

About forty years ago, the New Urbanism came on the scene with bold and creative ideas for building entirely new towns. The founders of the movement intended to prove that we could really build beautiful, walkable new places in America, much like some of our historic norms. Those early communities captured incredible attention, far beyond their actual size. And they've influenced a couple generations of people in the planning and development world.But it's also true that most of the new places built were fairly modest in scale. Seaside, Florida, the famous community on the Florida panhandle, is just sixty acres in size. Many other new communities were the size of a suburban subdivision, or a smaller master-planned community. This isn't a knock on the projects, it's just the reality of what could be achieved and who the clients were.In recent years, an even bigger and more audacious proposal has come forward called California Forever. The founders have acquired over 50,000 acres in the Bay Area in Solano County. I speak with Gabriel Metcalf, the Head of Planning, to discuss the plans for this new community - the whys, whats and hows. This is a massive effort, and one that's intentionally trying to renew notions of what can be done in a state that's become famously difficult in which to build.Gabriel and I talk about not just the specifics of the proposed community, but how this effort fits into the historic context of new towns, and what he sees as precedents. Can we still build new places in America that are inspiring and solve 21st century problems? And what do new towns say about our existing cities and their struggles? We discuss all this and more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Andrew Burleson asks us to think about, “what is the system that creates space for people to live?” Systems thinking may seem terribly wonky, and in reality, it is. But systems thinking gave us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and a whole host of ideas that underpin western civilization. Systems thinking was behind the movement that created administrative city planning and zoning in the 19-teens and 20s. YOU might not be thinking about systems, but someone else is. So the question is, what kind of systems do we want and need, that produce the best outcomes for human beings?Andrew is a man of many hats, not the least of which is he's the Board Chair for Strong Towns. Beyond that, he's a terrific thinker in his own right, and writes a Substack called The Post-Suburban Future. This episode is an outgrowth of a post he wrote called, “Could we create land use rules that work better for everyone?” If the episode intrigues you, read the post, too. He goes into even more detail with images there.The main focus of our conversation is a notion I described a few years ago, which is we need to “unleash the swarm” to solve our housing and development issues. Andrew does an exceptional job of describing the problem (all development now is discretionary and professionalized), and that our land use regulations essentially require stasis. Stasis sounds comforting to many, but it actually works against our intentions when practiced in reality.In this episode, we talk about how to de-professionalize housing, which is a phrase I really like, and how to drive incremental change by the context of a block or neighborhood. Andrew's phrase that I love is, “the individual project is small, but the collective output is enormous.” As I reflected on that, it occurred to me that's the entire spirit of the American experience, and one we've gotten away from to our detriment.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Right off the top, I must say I always enjoy talking with Seth Zeren. Seth fits the mold of most of my favorite people, in that he's a deep thinker AND a do-er. His ruminations are baked in the reality of trying to actually build things every day of the week, and he operates from a deep set of principles for placemaking. In other words, he really tries to get things done and done well - not just talk about them. Oh how I wish more people in the world of “advocacy” could be like Seth and also get their hands dirty building and developing. But that's a story for another day.Seth wrote a piece on his Substack, Build the Next Right Thing, not long ago called “Two Great Tastes that Taste Great Together.” In that piece, he outlines what he sees as the strengths and weaknesses of both Strong Towns and the emerging Abundance movement, and how they can learn from and accentuate each other. I found it fascinating enough to want to talk about it all with him.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

A few months ago, we lost Leon Krier, one of the all-time greats in the world of architecture and urban design. I'm joined by Dan Parolek of Opticos Design to reflect on Krier's work and influence, and his personal experiences working with him on multiple projects. Krier's work and his many drawings have been foundational for so many of us that came through the world of New Urbanism. His simple, elegant way of dissecting what's wrong with modern cities angered a lot of people in the architecture and planning establishment, but appealed to so many of us that knew something was wrong. In the end, there's almost nothing about Krier's work that should be controversial. He approached everything from the perspective of what is actually good for human beings. He felt we could and should learn from the acquired wisdom of the past and generations of people before us. That any of that should be controversial says so much about the era in which we live and how the design professions have mutated over the years.If you don't know Krier, I hope this is an introduction. Please go check out his books. They're incredibly easy to understand and read, and many are good for a laugh, too.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Chuck Marohn of Strong Towns joins me in the studio to dive deeply into the world of housing finance and housing policy, fresh on the heels of his book, Escaping the Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis. For an architect and engineer to dive into this world might seem anathema to economists, but we go there anyway. The topics range from the thirty year mortgage and its distortions on the housing market to yield curve control to how social trust impacts the whole conversation. And we ask “do we actually have enough housing?” Coming soon I'll have an episode about Leon Krier and his impact on so many discussions for architecture, planning and design today, but for now Chuck and I talk about one aspect of his ideas: height limits. Naturally, we focus on how that plays out in Washington, D.C.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I've been an avid podcast listener since the early days of podcasting. It's probably one area where I was a bit of an early adopter for technology. My guess is this is in part due to the fact that I grew up listening to a lot of radio, especially radio shows in the car when my parents were driving. So I suppose you can say I've always been interested in the audio side of conversations and entertainment.Back a few years ago, my brother finally nudged me into trying to do a podcast, after he'd gotten his started. His is all about the Mississippi River and the culture, environment and communities along it. Take a listen, it's really good! He's an incredible wealth of information about the river, and was even featured recently on Rick Steves' podcast.But when Dean got me started, I wasn't sure exactly how this would go, or if I'd enjoy having a podcast. Now here I am a few years later, with thousands of subscribers, and a milestone in episode #100. It's been a wild ride, and getting more enjoyable all the time.So for this one, I decided to have some fun with two of my good buddies - Jason Carter-Solomon and Shomari Benton. Both have been on before, and both frequently offer great insights into life as well as the sorts of topics I delve into routinely - planning, development, design and small-scale real estate investment.We take some time on this episode to look back at our own lives, and we get a little personal. They even bring the questions to me, as we discuss our “why” for doing what we do, talk about career regrets, and think about what the future holds for each of us. I hope you enjoy it - we had a lot of fun doing this episode.Thanks so much for listening to these first 100 episodes.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One thing that's really obvious when you talk with Johnny Youssef is that he's just a very positive and happy guy. And, frankly, it's amazing what he's accomplished at a still-young age. Johnny started his journey in Egypt, and eventually landed in Kansas City as a small developer and rental property owner. We talk about how he focused on the not-sexy parts of our region, and quickly built an income portfolio that has served him well.Johnny is the closest thing to a social media star that I've had on the show. In fact, almost everything we talk about can be seen on his channels, and I'd certainly recommend checking out his videos. In particular, his story of buying and renovating and old church here in Midtown KC is fantastic.There's so much to learn from people like Johnny that just get in the game, take risks, and build. It's a spirit we could use a lot more of, and in Johnny's case I can't wait to see what else he accomplishes.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Kevin's note: Apologies on the audio quality. Riverside did something funky to this episode, and I did my best to correct it.We all love to study success, and learn how to emulate it. Allan Branch likes to study failure. He studied it for his businesses, and for his city. Remarkably, it's helped lead Allan to a lot of success in all his endeavors.Allan traces his roots from art school and family entrepreneurship to software and building businesses, to literally building buildings in his hometown. Of course, that's not enough, so Allan decided to run for Mayor as well. And won.There are Allans in every city and town in America. And yet, very few of them actually have his success, or take the initiative to help fix local politics. I wish more would, as we'd all be better for it. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Nolan Gray is the author of the very successful book, “Arbitrary Lines: How Zoning Broke the American City and How to Fix It.” If you're in the planning and zoning world, you've likely heard of it or read it. If you haven't, run right out and do it.Most of this episode focuses on the unique nature of Houston, Texas, and its approach to land use regulation. Often-scorned by planners because the city doesn't have zoning, it actually provides a fascinating alternative to a process we know by now doesn't work very well. And we dissect a few of the fears related to what might happen without zoning.Nolan has a deep knowledge of the history of zoning, and we touch a bit on how things came to be in the US context. Trust me - it's not as boring as it sounds, but it's also really important to know that this is a fairly young idea and institution. My editorial comment has always been: this was all invented by other humans, not all that long ago, and we shouldn't be so afraid of even radical changes. It's not the Ten Commandments, folks.We can dream of a repeal of Euclid v Ambler, even if we never get it. And who knows, we might even get to a result that's actually more democratic in nature than what we have today.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

A developer colleague recently said to me, “I've only lived and worked in an era where cities are getting better. Now, I'm not so sure that's the case anymore.” His comment along with a whole lot of other inputs got me to thinking - what if he's right? Today, I consider a potentially dark path for big American cities. Are we in the midest of a new era of decline and retreat from urban areas? Will this continue? Is the “vibe shift” going to be a good thing or bad thing for people that love and care about big cities?So let's get real, and discuss what it all could mean. I may do a future podcast taking the opposite view, but for now I think it's important to consider the possible downsides of recent trends. Those include cultural forces, but also technological and economic changes, such as the advent of AI.Come with me on a journey to the dark side…Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Mike Hathorne has been around the New Urbanism movement for over twenty years. That means he has that rare combination of idealism, practicality, and persistence. Nowadays, you can find Mike with Visionary Homes in Utah.While the principles of New Urbanism have guided his work for years, Mike has also been on the front lines trying to figure out how to get it all built. Like all of us, he's had successes and failures. But that desire to connect to truly human values and needs continues to drive him forward. Mike and I talk about how the actual types of households in our communities are far more diverse than most realize. And, what that all means for people trying to build new housing. We pause for a minute to discuss the notion of why having diverse households in a neighborhood is actually a good thing, and how it helps communities.The changes in household makeup over the last 70 years or so is very stark, and surprises many people. I've found that most people still assume the 2 parents with kids at home is still the dominant household arrangement. It's not at all, and we take a look at the numbers. For anyone trying to build or develop, or anyone trying to improve their community, this is really important baseline information. We can all imagine that world we might want to have, but we must start and work with the world as it is.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

If you're fortunate and diligent, you'll encounter people in your field that are just supremely knowledgable about the details, and willing to talk about them. Audrey Navarro, the Managing Partner of Clemons Real Estate in Kansas City, is one of those people. I've found Audrey to be incredibly nice and pleasant to talk with, but also very ruthless (in a good way) with the numbers and the realities of real estate and development.In this episode, we trace her path that started from a simple duplex house hack, to now running a company with hundreds of apartments, commercial properties and even a construction arm. I particularly love how she says, “We sell math, not buildings. If you can get creative with the math, you can do just about anything.”Audrey and her firm have also endeavored to work in the “supportive housing” world, and we talk about the trials and tribulations, as well as the possibilities, for anyone taking on that ask. Lastly, we talk about WIRED, which is a very cool effort to encourage women to be more involved in the real estate business.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

You're not going to find too many movies with developers as the hero. For most of the public, their opinion of developers is somewhere below Congress. And that's saying something.I find that all unfortunate, since developers are the ones who build virtually everything in our world - our homes, our offices, our shops, our entertainment. And there's a group of developers who have been undertaking honestly heroic efforts for two or three decases - those trying to build “new urbanist” or walkable projects. Some of these are small, and some quite large, but they're all challenging.Ward Davis is one of those guys. He's been at it in Northwest Arkansas for a couple decades now, and has all the scars to show it. He also has had a lot of success, and he's someone worth learning from when it comes to the ins and out of development. His company is High Street Development, based in Fayetteville, and he pretty much works just in that very fast-growing region.There are a LOT of gems in this episode, so I highly suggest you stick with my lousy audio recording to hear it all. Ward and I talk bout what their approach is with doing “town center” types of projects, how to make money doing it, what is wrong with the development business, and the promise but pitfalls of doing small-scale “incremental” development. In a certain sense, this is a great companion piece to my interview with John Zeanah from Memphis, as they both are trying to figure out how to change our many flawed systems, and get beautiful places built that stand the test of time.I love how Ward says, “There's not a business in the country that looks easier from the outside and is more difficult on the inside.”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

From Iain, whose excellent site you can find at this link:The term 'messy' is a growing one when it comes to cities just now, and it's a refreshing one in what has for the last little while been the domain of the planner, who tends to see the world from the top down. But what makes cities, and indeed a lot of companies, so good is that they embrace what comes from the bottom up.In cities that means what's happening on the street, and how the people are shaping it. In companies it means the front line staff or factory worker being empowered to make changes when they notice something.Anyway, my most recent guest for Challenger cities was Kevin Klinkenberg who has been writing about The Messy City for a while now. So I loved hearing his stories of applying this in his own realm of Kansas City.We talked art walks, roundabouts, neighbourhoods, backyard cottages and the trouble of trying to be neat, tidy and perfect all the time. I suspect people will be really into this one, and a bit thanks to Karen from Strong Towns for making the connection! Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Usually when a Kansas Citian talks about Memphis, it's to discuss their bbq vs ours. And trust me, they do make some good ribs on Memphis. But today we are here to learn about housing and redevelopment. The City of Memphis has taken some solid steps in recent years to reform all manner of codes and processes to enable more and better housing options. John Zeanah joins me to discuss the specifics.There's a lot in here for the policy wonks, and I'm here for it as well. But what I love the most is the attitude displayed by John, and his statement that they want to be problem solvers, not just regulators. What you hear from him is someone not content to check a box, do a plan and let it sit, or issue platitudes. This is what it looks like when people get their hands dirty, and truly work to fix issues that need fixing.The episode I had with Emily Hamilton is a great companion to this one, where she went into detail on State-level reforms for housing policy.For more, here's John's website.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jed Byrne is a man of many hats, but what he really cares about is demystifying real estate development for ordinary people. Jed's podcast, Dirt NC, focuses primarily on issues in North Carolina and especially the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill “Triangle” area. Earlier this year, Jed and a group of people from the local Chamber visited the Kansas City region on a mission to learn from each other. I'm not sure they talked much basketball (Kansas - the birthplace of North Carolina basketball as the saying goes), but they did talk a lot about economic development. And while here, Jed had a chance to check in with our local small development group. We talk about why it's important to have a local ecosystem of small developers like we have, and what he hopes to achieve by having one in the Triangle. Jed also has some insights on what it's like to live in a fast-growing region, vs. the sort of slow and steady growth we have in most Midwestern markets.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and place-making.Jaime's book: “Main Street Mavericks”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today's episode isn't exactly Coughlin's Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg's Rules, but it is full of some life advice I'd like to share for the dog days of Summer. I've long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn't easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.Key link: Symphony in the Flint HillsFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That's a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it's also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren't terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.John Haigh, who's the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison, Kansas, aims to do something about all this. You likely haven't heard of Benedictine before, as it's a small college in a small town in flyover country. But you might want to pay attention to what they're doing now, and what is rumbling up from the grass roots in higher education.We cover a lot in this podcast, including* the importance of learning to draw by hand, in the computer age* What is the impact of AI on the school and the students?* Why this is happening in Catholic schools?* can a college teach architects to become developers?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Why is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn't inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That's a long title and way of saying, she's someone who does a LOT of research into housing policy, and really knows her stuff.I've been in this game long enough to be able to detect people who act like they're serious about housing policy, but really aren't. As in, they really don't much about how housing gets built, who builds it, why they build it, and why they might build more. Emily is not one of those people. She has a clear interest in getting more of all kinds of housing built, to help with the price crunch that exists in so many markets.If you want to talk code reform and housing policy, this is your episode.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Terrell Jolly didn't start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri's Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods that the vast majority of developers avoid, and why he takes on such a difficult task.When I hear TJ talk, I think to myself, this is what our cities need. For a lot of cities in the Midwest in particular, we have a LOT of older homes and buildings that need renovation. We also have people who need affordable places to live. It's people like TJ that figure out how to make it all economical, and are showing us a path towards something that can scale. But as he says, “you gotta have the guts.” It's not easy. It's not for the faint of heart. But it sure does have its rewards.Every city probably has a Terrell Jolly, and every city could use about a dozen more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building. Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it's often not how people in the world of economic development think. In particular, for modest-cost cities like Kansas City and much of the Midwest, affordability in housing has long been a value proposition. How do we retain that as times change, and as we grow? We discuss this, as well as working to improve disinvested parts of our city, and explore the notion of whether or not our urban core is actually growing.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I'm familiar with. For example, “growth doesn't always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven't kept pace with the times.”Jeff Siegler is the man behind the account, and he's built a nice little business on the backs of his tough love and his experience. He denies he's the tough love guy, and he clearly is a likable person. But I'll stick with the meme - I think what he does is try to snap people out of their slumber with some tough love. Jeff says people need to have hard conversations, because when you don't, you end up disappointing vastly more people. I agree. Check out his book, “Your City is Sick,” and his website for more info.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Many of us don't like to think too much about banking and money until we REALLY need to. As an architect, I'm as guilty as anyone as not taking the time to think through the financial side, and to also get easily intimidated by it.But it doesn't have to be this way, truly. Money is just a tool, like any other tool, and it's not hard to learn how to use it and to meet people who can help you become successful with money.Landmark National Bank President & CEO Abby Wendel joins us, along with Commercial Banking Team Leader Jason Carter-Solomon, to talk banking and small-scale real estate development. Jason urges us to think hard about what our why? is in regards to what we're doing. Abby talks a lot about her experience in banking and how a community bank in particular can help small business people become successful. All, of course, while navigating very turbulent times.We talk through a number of challenges people face, including access to capital when getting started, time management for those doing “side hustles” in development, and if there are creative ways to package multiple small projects together from a financing standpoint. You might also learn why Dodge City, KS is a fascinating place.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Patrick Tuohey is the Policy Director and co-founder of a think tank called the Better Cities Project. While his own views are politically right of center, the organization is non partisan and aims to give cities advice on the basics of good governance. He's also an unabashed lover of cities, which is something not common in “Urbanist” circles.We have a wide-ranging discussion, though largely focused on small government, free market principles and how Patrick sees things working or not in cities. We both live in a city that's widely known for the extensive use of tax incentives for development, and we get into some of the challenges and realities of that approach. It's a topic I'd love to explore even further, as it's so embedded in our day to day reality and is very complex. Patrick makes a number of really insightful observations in this episode. As someone who lives in a big city and is always trying to balance the ideal with the practical, it's always fascinating talking with people with a strong sense of principle. It's very easy to get lost in the minutiae of the day to day, and every so often it's helpful to step away and look at the bigger picture.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Rodney Dangerfield once famously said, “golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate.” We won't touch cemeteries in this episode, but we do talk about golf courses. Monte Anderson joins me as we discuss different ways of looking at so-called “obsolete” properties. As a teaser: Monte shares with me what I think is one of the most brilliant ideas I've heard about how to work with old or declining churches. You must listen to understand it.The whole discussion reminded me of something I wrote about years ago:About fifteen years ago, I remember reading a planning study for a corridor in Kansas City, Missouri, where I was living and working at the time. We were working with a client that had some redevelopment ideas in mind, and wanted to see what the officially-adopted plan recommended. Like many planning studies, it had a simple market analysis attached to it, with a look at recent trends in the real estate market and some projections for the future. As most planners know, this is typical plain-vanilla planning 101. The market study informs the plan recommendations, which eventually are codified into zoning and process.One thing in particular struck me at the time: the economist's report bemoaning the “substandard” lot sizes in the area. I had to read it a few times before it became clear the message was that any serious redevelopment would require purchase and combination of many lots into larger development parcels. The notion baked into this was the original lots, many of which were 50 feet wide and around 100 – 150 feet deep (some narrower, some wider), were too small to attract modern, big-boy development. If any developer was ever to be serious about investing, he or she would need something more like what is typical with modern real estate development products. What is typical? Often that means several acres of land in one parcel, so the site can be developed with the necessary large, singular building, sufficient parking, room for storm water improvements, landscaping and lighting. Even in an urban location, the bias toward suburban-style solutions was still very strong, but when urban buildings were desired the thought process was still only a large, single master developer could accomplish transformation. Frankly, most planners and economic developers didn't know of or trust a different model. The design and development professions still largely cling to this approach.Substandard, obsolete, these are words thrown around a lot by planners and economic development officials. But don't buy it. Every property can be repurposed or rethought. In fact, Monte is the only person that's ever made me look at an ugly strip mall and think, “yeah, I could make something cool with this.”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We often don't realize that the “way things are” is just a reflection of some radical change that happened in a previous era. While I'm a firm believer that aspects of human nature haven't really changed much through the millennia, it is true that we've shaped, reshaped, and reshaped our societies over and over again. And the most visible evidence of that change is our cities and towns.Today's discussion is about looking past the way things are, in many dimensions, and realizing that it is possible to make big changes. In fact, it happens at fairly regular intervals whether we want it or not.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Rik Adamski is a man of many hats. But first and foremost, he's someone that cares deeply about the people side of urban planning. So often, planners, architects and developers get mired in the technical side of building community. And of course, we have to, because there's a lot that requires our attention.But in this episode, Rik reminds us that planning is really about people, and about helping people make their own place better. The reason we fall in love with a place is more about what the people create themselves, and not what is imposed from above.As an owner of Ash and Lime, and part of the Storefront Renaissance League, Rik focuses intently on the incremental steps to helping communities. One thing he mentioned in this that I loved is that incremental doesn't necessarily mean small. It just means taking the next series of steps or bets. Kevin's Note: I've had some audio issues recently, I know it. I'm working on it. Thanks for listening regardless.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

From the earliest days of my interest in urban planning, I became very interested in the overlap between design and culture. By that I mean, how cities shape human interaction, and how human interaction shapes cities. Why are some places successful when others aren't, even when they have similar design and planning features? Why do some communities seem so tight and together, when others do not? Is it all just a design problem, as I've been taught?In fact, the obvious answer it's not just a design problem. It's also about how we relate to each other as humans, and the networks we form. Dr. Seth Kaplan is a true expert in this area, having studied and worked with fragile states all over the world. In 2023, he turned his attention to American cities and wrote the book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time.” Seth and I talk in this episode about the overlap between design and a true sense of community. That is, we explore what it takes to create the kind of place that kids have broad independence, where people truly look out for each other, and where people feel deeply invested in its long-term success. I'll tease out one piece, where he talks about the difference between people he is friends with in his neighborhood, versus people he has a relationship with. And, how important that is for a successful place, and for more fulfilled people.Seth can be found here on his LinkedIn page, and you can see some of his writings here.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I had the pleasure of meeting Charles Brewer right when he was starting to get interested in becoming a real estate developer. This was after a very successful short career in the dot-com world, as he was a founder of Mindspring. When he exited, he became interested in New Urbanism, and decided to shift his career toward the building of new, walkable communities.Twenty-plus years later, we get a chance to talk about his journey. And, we get to spend a lot of time discussing Las Catalinas, his remarkable new town on the beach in Costa Rica. I wrote some about Las Catalinas, here, after a recent visit.Charles is especially interesting in that he's a firm believer in many of the principles of New Urbanism, but he's also willing to challenge them and all of us who have worked on these communities. His first project, Glenwood Park in Atlanta, is a fantastic infill development by any realistic measure. Fascinatingly, he calls it “mainstream New Urbanism.” For him, the real challenge and next frontier is figuring out how to create car-free (or mostly car-free) communities. Charles in particular has been very motivated by the experience of kids and families, and how to encourage and allow for more freedom of movement and life for them. I'll also just editorialize and say, his projects are a great testimony to the power of an individual's passion to just get things done, and get them done well. Despite what outsiders and critics might think, these projects are very challenging. Part of the reason we have so few examples like them, is that it takes a rare kind of determination to go against virtually every professional silo in the built environment. Someone used to call this “stick-to-it-ive-ness.” It's a quality I greatly admire in people, and I hope you do as well.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It's truly a rare thing in life to run across people that are uber-talented, thoughtful, and just fantastic human beings. Dhiru Thadani is one of those rare people. An architect, urban designer, author, teacher, and prolific sketch artist, Dhiru has been involved in the New Urbanism movement since the earliest days. He's written multiple books about the famous new town of Seaside, Florida, and we spend a bit of time rehashing some history on this episode for those that are unaware.One of my most enjoyable lines from this talk, was Dhiru relating that “The most original architects have the largest libraries – that's their secret.” In essence, we all steal from each other, and from history. Nothing is original; everything derives from something else. Some may find that statement stifling, but if you truly care about making beautiful places above all else, it's actually liberating.Dhiru and I talk about the possible future evolution of Seaside. Can it, in fact, evolve? Many of us that know and love Seaside as it is have a lot of heartburn with this notion. We hate seeing beloved buildings come down.My editorial, though, is that this line of concern is really just a symptom of an era of horrible architecture. Our ancestors never felt this way, because older buildings (which often were attractive), were replaced by new buildings that were more attractive.That all stopped with the advent of the modern movement in architecture – most notably the “international style.” Now, we just don't have confidence that beauty can be replaced by beauty. We rightly fear that beauty will be replaced by ugliness. But in fact, we can build beautifully, and we have. People like Dhiru have been teaching us how to do so for more than forty years. It's now incumbent on us to keep that fire burning. For inspiration, check out Dhiru's Instagram account, and pick up a pencil and draw.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

The world of architecture is full of megalomanicas, wanna-be stars, and also a whole lot of good people just grinding out beautiful work outside the spotlight. One thing I enjoy with my little platform is shining a light on some of the people that do that beautiful work, and rarely get national attention.Don Powers, of Union Studio in Providence, Rhode Island, has one of those firms. Union Studio has grown over the years to do a lot of different kinds of work, but what I really wanted to focus on for this interview is their work in courtyard housing and affordable housing.Educators and media within the architecture profession will routinely tell us we can't build like the old ways, nor should we. And yes, of course, there's some truth to the fact we have different materials, means and methods now. But Union Studio's work shows us it is in fact possible to produce new buildings that build off of living human traditions, add grace and beauty to the world, and will certainly stand the test of the time. That's as true for higher-end housing as it is for “affordable housing.” Good design is a choice, it's an intention. In this episode, Don walks us through how they've made some of it happen.Give the whole thing a listen, but do remember some key points: fight for those one or two good details on any project, including doors and windows. And, good landscaping is cheap. Don't overlook the importance of simple, but good, site design.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Austin Tunnell is one of the shining stars of a new generation of designer/builders for creative smaller projects, and he also happens to work in the world of mass masonry construction. In this episode, we talk about his journey from accountant to mason and beyond, with his really cool company called Building Culture.Austin now lives and works in the Oklahoma City area, and he's aggressively expanding his scope with a new project called The Townsend. Audio doesn't really do these projects justice. You really need to look these up, and/or see them in person. Not to get too frou-frou, but they touch your soul in a way that most new buildings just do not. Some links below:Podcast with Clay ChapmanPodcast with the Mayor of Oklahoma CityPodcast with Hiatus HomesFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It's not often you run across people in the development world that have deep knowledge in both the smallest scales of projects and the biggest. The industry, like many, is very bifurcated. People who do small projects tend to keep doing small projects. People who work on really large projects tend to keep doing that for their careers.Joe Perry, who works as his day job as the Vice President of Development for PortKC, has had one solid foot in both worlds for his entire career. We talk about what it's like to exist in both realms, to prosper in both, and some key lessons learned. For anyone interested in house hacking or house flipping as a side gig, I'd highly recommend listening to Joe discuss what he's done over a few decades.Joe and I worked together on the New Longview project in Lee's Summit, Missouri, and you can hear more about that in my interview with developer David Gale.I really enjoy some of Joe's advice to others, especially to young people. Stay tuned for the whole thing, it's worth it.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

“Just do it. Do it as quickly as you can.” That's the advice of architect Doug Moss, who came to doing small-scale development projects after working for three decades as an architect. Doug left small-town Texas to pursue a career in New York, and boomeranged back several years ago to pursue his dreams as a developer. Now living in Austin, Doug has a healthy side gig doing small projects in Taylor, Texas, where he grew up.Doug and I met during the Small-Scale Developer Forum, which is a group Jim Heid gathers together twice per year. If you're someone interested in improving your own community with development, these are your people. Doug still works as an architect with Steinberg Hart, but also does development with his company Public Sketch. Doug is such a modest guy, but this story is great inspiration for anyone who wants to use the professional skills they've learned to help a community they know and love.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Allen County, Kansas is not a place most people will be familiar with, but the story is one you've probably heard before. Located in southeast Kansas, an hour and a half from the nearest major city, it features much that's typical of rural America. Iola, the county seat, is a city of 5,300 people. It has a classic town square and lies at the junction of a couple of state highways. The beautiful Flint Hills and its majestic cattle ranches are not far away.But after the community lost its hospital in the early 2000s, the usual questions emerge - is Iola, and the whole county on the verge of permanent decline?Out of this tragic circumstance was born Thrive Allen County Jared Wheeler, their Economic Development Director, joins me to talk about the path that Iola, Humboldt and the whole county have taken since that time. And, the remarkable successes they've achieved. Humboldt, for example, was featured in 2024's “15 Best Small Towns to Visit” in Smithsonian Magazine.You might not know much, or even care much, about rural Kansas. But I think you'll still find this to be an inspiring conversation and story. Jared and I cover a lot of ground, talking about rural community development, place-making, a culture of experimentation, and even bike paths.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Text Transcript:Kevin Klinkenberg (00:01.158)Welcome back to the Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg joined in studio today by a special guest from Central, what did you call it? Central Kansas? Southeast Kansas. Southeast Kansas, yeah. Southeast Kansas, all right. Well, shout out to my buddy Jason Carter-Solomon who hooked us up. He said, you know, just was out in Iowa, Kansas and I met this guy doing really cool stuff and it's like, you've got to talk to him.And it sounded intriguing and here we are. So welcome to the show for Jared Wheeler. You got it. Jared Wheeler. I am economic development director for a nonprofit in Southeast Kansas called Thrive Allen County. So I'm thrilled to be to be here today. Well, it should be a lot of fun. I have I've been through the area a little bit, have not stopped in Humboldt, which I know is like the big.tourist draw now. Right, right. Who would have thought that a community of 2,500 people would be in the Smithsonian magazine, New York Times, all these national publications saying you got, you have to come check this place out. Yeah. So why don't we start a little bit by just talking about, first of all, what thrive Allen County is, and how you came to be a part of it. So thrive Allen County.was initiated when the hospital in Iola, Kansas was closing. And as part of the agreement, anytime a hospital closed at that point, the idea that assets would be sold and then the money put it into the, with the intention of creating a 501c3 nonprofit, specifically dedicated towards public health initiatives. So Thrive Allen County was born out of really a crisis. So it's kind of birth from a crucible.the hospital in a small town closes. If you speak rural life fluently at all, that is a recurring theme that the hospital in town closes and you are left with some amalgamation of clinics or some specialty shops or just a general practice with limited beds, no overnight stays, that sort of thing. So the hospital closes, thrive, Allen County is born.Kevin Klinkenberg (02:20.988)And its initial mandate is to improve the community health. Just to interrupt for just a sec. So give people perspective. How big is Iowa? Yeah. Iowa, Kansas is about 5,200 people. Relatively small. It's the county seat of Allen County, Kansas. The next largest community is humble of 2,500 people. So the entire county's population is 12,000. Right. So for those of you who are in urban context, you are.probably struggling to imagine that sort of lack of population density, population scarcity. It's funny. It reminds me. So I went to high school in a small town in central Missouri. That was about 12,000 people. Okay. But when I hear you say, you know, Iowa is 5,200, it just reminds me that like when you're in a smaller town, like the hundreds matter. my. Saying 5,200 versus like 5,600, that's like a big deal. Right. It's the same way, you know,parents of young children still measure their kids age in months. It's like, is it about 27 months? It's the same situation for those of us who are doing our best work in rural communities, like 5,200. Because if I say, it's about 5,000 people, somebody out there is listening going, my graduating class was 5,000 people. That makes no sense. So Thrive, that's our context in which we work. And for the last,17 years Thrive has existed to enrich the health of citizens in Allen County. And that was initially in specifically related to physical health. So we have healthcare navigators that try and make sure that as many people as possible are insured. We operate vaccination clinics throughout the county, especially in even more rural and remote context. And thenabout halfway through the lifespan of Thrive, economic development was added. And economic development is really pursued from the perspective of community health. What is going to be a source of good, benevolent disruption? That's my approach constantly is what is going to disrupt the systems that are in place that contribute to the lack of health?Kevin Klinkenberg (04:45.788)for our community members through economic development. So that's my role and I am part of, technically I'm a one man department, but we all work together at Thrive and with our partners, both public and private partners in the communities. So how big is the organization overall? We have just under 30 employees right now. Yeah, and so we're fortunate in that some of those employees are in a transition period because we operate Allen Regional Transit.which is a public transportation organization in a rural context, which I know some of y'all out there are picturing like covered wagons. That's not exactly what's going on. But so we operate a public transit organization. And then we also have within our organization, the seed of another nonprofit that will probably spin off called Thrive Kansas, which is working for the same sort of rural community health goals.that we do in Allen County, but is trying to create statewide networks to do that. And how did you, are you from the area? Man, my rural bona fides are legit. I am, I am from a town of 500 people originally called Thayer, Kansas and in the same region, Southeast Kansas again, born and raised there. And really, so you have to remember I grew up in the nineties, early two thousands. So my experience of the wider world.was purely through pop culture. We didn't go anywhere. I was as hasty as they come. I knew what sushi was. did not eat. I had not had a bite of sushi until probably when I was on my honeymoon. And my cousin and I had a wonderful time. I'm just kidding. And so that's my baseline understanding of the world. But then I...I lived and worked in churches and schools after that. Did my grad school in Portland, Oregon. And so I did intensive weeks out there. So I was spending time in Portland in the Pacific Northwest for a couple of weeks at a time for four or five semesters. And so I've experienced a lot of different contexts. And then we moved back to Southeast Kansas, my wife and family and I from Kansas City actually. And so we lived up here.Kevin Klinkenberg (07:12.294)and then moved back about nine years ago with the choice to locate our family in a rural context. that's my route towards economic or community development is incredibly circuitous. And I really, I've found that that was a point of embarrassment for me initially when I took the job, because I just thought, everybody knows this stuff better than I do. And now I'm learning more and more about our conversation off mic before that.You were in architecture school before you got into community development. And I think that's, that is true for so many people that the reason they end up in community development, economic development, especially in a rural context is because they love the place. They love the place. They are invested in it and they have lived it. And again, bear the burden of what could be, or they have lived it and they are so quintessentially formed by it.that they believe other people should benefit from that formation as well. And the same is true for me in both directions. So, really the only experience I have with your area has been driving back and forth between Kansas City and Tulsa, which is kind of like the most direct route, really. Maybe not the fastest route, it's hard to say, but it's more interesting anyway, a little more scenic.been through Iowa. don't think I actually have driven through Humboldt yet. Humboldt, as you mentioned, has been a place that's gotten a lot of attention in recent years and it's kind of on the radar for, you know, like glamping and for cycling and everything else. Why don't you talk a little bit about like how and why has the area started to get the level of attention that you mentioned before?I think there's two categories I should speak to. The first is material and then maybe the second is going to sound a little weird, but it's mythological. So materially, one of the reasons that the area has gotten attention is because quite frankly, it's cost effective to develop and to try things in Allen County. The economic ecosystem in rural Kansas has typically been one of either extraction or exploitation historically.Kevin Klinkenberg (09:35.81)It is a wildcatting pioneering economy since my goodness, since the 19th century. And so the, industries that boomed the turn of the 20th century into the 19th century were extraction based businesses. Let's pull things as pull natural resources out. mean, my goodness, near Iola, Kansas, there is literally a city called gas and it is called gas because you, you made your bones.as part of a natural gas business there, that that's the way you made it so that the name stuck and in Humboldt and Iola there, there were massive, concrete businesses. there are these huge firms that, mined a mineral from that area and then use it to turn it into cement and concrete. So it's one that's still an operation monarch cement company in Humboldt, Kansas, butThat is the case. either you're pulling a resource from the landscape and when that is exhausted, you leave. And so that that also funnels into that exploitation idea. It's extraction or exploitation. So there's a sense amongst the folks who live and this may be true if you're a real person listening, you might be nodding along or you might want to fight me either way. WhereThere's an idea, the scarcity mindset that blends in that says, well, everybody who could have left did. Everyone who had the chance and the means and the capacity to leave when it was time to leave did, and we are what remains. I don't think that's accurate. I think that's sometimes, unfortunately, the way that small communities understand themselves. They either become bitterness factories or hope factories. That's very rarely.in a community that is somewhat remote and rural, is it in between those two extremes. You're either a community of hope or you're a community of bitterness. What could have been and what might be. So those are your two extremes. And I'd love to talk to people if they feel like they live in a community that exists right in the middle of those.Kevin Klinkenberg (11:51.238)So the first reason why the community, the area is getting more attention is because materially it's more cost effective to try something new there. That economic ecosystem of extraction or exploitation is given way to one of experiment. Let's try something new. And so there are people who are either coming back to the area or they are relocating from other parts of the country.because they have an idea that is impossible due to the cost constraints of where they live. I am assuming even for our folks who are listening in Kansas City, that if I started doing cost analysis comparison between opening a storefront business of some sort in Prairie Village compared to Iola, Kansas, you will not get the population density for traffic or tail lights, butfor your permit cost, you might be able to buy a building in Iola. So that's really at end of the day, it's more cost effective in our area just because things are cheaper. I don't mean to be crass, but that's what it comes down to. That's the material side. The second one, the one that I'm maybe even more interested in is the mythological side. Why are people so interested in that area? And I wanna ask this question as I hold this off in my head.How do you think people from non-rural contexts experience or how is their perception of the rural world formed by what pop cultural artifacts, so to speak? in the fifties and sixties, I would say it's probably Mayberry, you know, it's the Andy Griffith show. And what's the essence of the rural experience? Well, everybody knows you, you're not going to get away with anything because you'reyour mom's hairdresser's aunt saw you do that. And so they're going to report back. And then as it moves forward, what there's kind of this, it's dearth of pop cultural artifacts that have, kind of monolithic effect, except I believe there is now a new pop cultural phenomenon that everyone at least is aware of that is giving people a lens to look through.Kevin Klinkenberg (14:16.988)and see the rural context. And this is going to be absolutely ridiculous to most people, but stay with me. If you're familiar, if you, if you are familiar with the incredible pieces of art, they're known as hallmark movies. You have had a rural experience because those movies never take place in urban settings. Or if they do, it's only momentary because they're trying to escape it to getto the rural place in which you are going to fall in love, achieve your dreams and feel your stress melt away. And that's silly, it's ridiculous. But at the same time, I believe there is a, I think that is a very kitschy way of seizing on a groundswell ofCollective emotion right now where people are looking for something that is more simple. Our lives are incredibly hectic. We know they're hectic. We know that we are addicted to everything and anything. So how can I simplify? And then how can I take charge of my life and do what I want to do and have some agency? And with a little bit where your dollars go a little bit farther and maybe the pace of life slows down, people feel like they have a little bit more agency.And then finally, where can I still access some version of the American dream, whatever that is? And I think that is a piece of mythology that has been so twisted and turned, but there's, it's still baked in somewhere to us. And I think at the end of the day, part of that dream in a rural context is can I be known by people and can I know other people? I'm sure you are aware of thethe emphasis and the buzzwords of, you know, quality spaces, place making third spaces. mean, we are, we are addicted to those. And in a rural context, I think the perception is when you look through the lens of an artifact, like a hallmark movie, that the entire community is a third space because you're going to bump into the person you work with elsewhere. You're going to see someone.Kevin Klinkenberg (16:38.764)at one of the three restaurants in town that you saw yesterday crossing the street or so on and so forth. So I think that's one reason why the community has been so, or the area has been of interest is because mythologically, it provides an avenue towards some essential thing that we want out of living life in community that may be a little bit more difficult.in, if not an urban context, certainly a suburban context. So if I were to put a dot in Iowa and then draw like a circle 100 miles around it, there's an awful lot of small towns within that circle. Right. What has distinguished Iowa and Humboldt that you see more positiverebound and attraction than maybe some other towns that are within that context. One thing that has really helped so much are collectivist approach to problem solving. for example, my organization Thrive Island County, especially in the area of economic development, we would be completely inept and ineffective if we didn't haveclose and active partnerships with local government and local business leaders and confederations of industry leaders as well. So that's one of the first reasons that Iola Allen County has been successful is because it's taken a collectivist approach to problem solving without any sort of political machinations behind that, or sometimes even completely devoid ofpolitical ideology, just because, something needs to change. What do we do about it? Another reason is because folks who have been successful in Allen County have taken it upon themselves, even though there isn't a whole lot of philanthropic infrastructure, or they don't see philanthropic models that you might see in a larger community. you start a foundation, that foundation does this, this is the way in which you...Kevin Klinkenberg (18:59.088)you know, are able to recoup some of what you've given away through tax breaks and so on and so forth. That infrastructure doesn't really exist in Southeast Kansas and small communities, but successful individuals have taken it upon themselves to think critically about the complex issues that their communities face, identify the areas in which they can have an impact and aggressively pursue that impact. So, andI'll be somewhat discretionary simply because the individual in question is not a huge fan of publicity, but there's an individual, a family in Humboldt, Kansas, that at the time of the pandemic redirected a considerable amount of its workforce towards making community improvements as opposed to laying off workers at their industry. That's turned into almost a parabolic story.but it is exemplary of this individual and this company's approach to community improvement. And even without a model that said, is how you do this. There's no, there's not a Carnegie library in Humboldt, Kansas, even serving as a beacon of what philanthropy looks like. This individual became a quintessential philanthropist to solveproblems and it's in his small community again, because he loves it. And that example has had a profound impact throughout the region where there are more and more folks who have been successful and have realized that their success has resulted because someone else made a provision for them and they've turned around and said, okay.How do I address the complex issues? Not merely I'm gonna endow a scholarship, which by the way, we love that, keep doing that everyone, but we need new curb and gutters in the road. I bet I could do something with that. I bet I could have an effect in that direction. So we've been very beneficial through collectivist solution making and then also,Kevin Klinkenberg (21:19.676)the inspired philanthropy of successful folks. mean, that's so interesting. It kind of hits on a broader topic. know Aaron Wren on his podcast has he's talked about this as well. But like one of the real differences today versus in communities, say 100 years ago, is that 100 years ago, the bank in town was locally owned. Right. The department store was locally owned.Right. You know, most of the, and this is true in cities of towns of almost all sizes, that your local leadership class were people who owned prominent businesses in the town. Right. And that is something that has been lost in an awful lot of communities because of, you know, just changes in the economy and so muchSo much of a shift towards sort of larger corporate owned Businesses that then just have branches in places and you just never have the same buy-in right you're like if you're like the branch manager of a bank that's got 500 Locations right you're gonna have a different buy-in than if you're like the owner of the bank. Yeah and and the same goes for for a lot of industry so I think that's it's really interesting what you mentioned that you sort of start starting from a kernel of somebody who ownedan important business and lives in the town and says, just like you said, I'm not going to just do a scholarship fund, but I'm going to invest in things that make, improve quality of life where I am. Right. And I guess that's, as you were, as you were talking about that, I, I couldn't help but wonder, and I'll, I'll ask you directly if you, do you think a community can outsource its self identity? no. Okay. Okay. So, but that's, that's the tug.When so many things are operated or owned remotely is what happens is this, I really think an existential crisis for a community to go, then what are we and who are we? And if you don't have a thing to point to that provides an place of orientation for your community, it gets really hard to then invite people to invest in that community.Kevin Klinkenberg (23:44.63)And so I think that's, I think you're exactly right. That when, when that autonomy evaporates, then you do have a, identity crisis, so to speak. And so that's one thing that's been really interesting in both Iola and Humboldt is, you know, the businesses that are added, we have some community investment, groups and, some microloan groups andso on and so forth. The businesses that have been added are not, mean, there is no retailer that's saying we'd love to drop a branch in your town of 5,000 people. It doesn't make sense for them. So what's added is homegrown. It's local entrepreneurs who we claw to find capital for them and then they take a swing and we're fortunate in that. I sit on a board of what we call a entrepreneurial community.a lending group, micro loans. although, you know, to us, they're not micro to other folks. might be, we have over 25 loans on the book right now and 99.9 % of them are making their payments with regularity. And we have businesses that are crossing that year to five to year six, year six threshold, which is enormous for anybody in the entrepreneurial world. And we've just been fortunate because, there's nobody coming to rescue us.think that is, that is a shift in mindset for small communities. That's so important and it requires a bit of, I mean, you, have to be brutally honest with yourself that you, you need to empower the folks who are there to ask why not instead of why here. Yeah. AndIf something else comes along, if something locates itself in your community, that is an extra. But if you can empower the folks who are local to take a chance, then I think you're onto something that could be sustainable. Yeah. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more, maybe some specific examples of like the homegrown approach. The reason I ask that is I'm old enough to rememberKevin Klinkenberg (26:09.818)that the standard approach to rural economic development for a long, time was go plat an industrial park on the edge of town, put the infrastructure in, and try to attract what basically were like low wage industrial jobs from big companies. that's how you will save your community. what you're describing is a really different sort of a bottom up approach to working with people who are already there.I wonder if you could talk more about like some of the successes or some of the other couple of stories you can share. Absolutely. and we still do that. I mean, I, got, I got two industrial parks right now that are planning and ready to rock. So if you're out there listening and you, and you want to, know, you need a spot for your biofuel company, hit me up. Cause I am ready to talk. so we're not, we're not opposed to that approach. I just think that, charting that as the only course is, really risky.And to be honest, I don't know how much, how reliable it is. I think it's a part of a solution model. But so for example, we have a coffee shop in Iola, Kansas. Every community has got a coffee shop at this point. It doesn't matter how small you are. This coffee shop, shout out Wild Bloom Coffee in Iola. And this coffee shop got started as alower level commercial space on the square. Like every other cute coffee shop in a small town bought the bare minimum square footage that they could afford as just one half of a building, one half of the lower level of a building. And the coffee shop has been so successful and it's been able toapply for and receive grant funding. It's been able to benefit from a neighborhood revitalization program that's a tax rebate program when they made improvements to the space. It works considerably with our organization in small business coaching and in capital pursuit through our micro loan program. And this coffee shop has now purchased the entire building that they're in. They offerKevin Klinkenberg (28:29.468)kind of a subscription based bourbon taste in nights and cigar bar evenings. And they're going to expand to catering and they they serve brunch now. And in our little coffee shop in Southeast Kansas, the other day I had the best ramen I've had in years. we have, they're really talented folks who are owning and operating that shop, but it's been able to expand consistently.due to again, these collectivist approach because there's so many people, it's not only that they serve a great product, they do. It's not only that they provide a great customer experience, which they do, but it's also because they have been willing to not only want help, but ask for help. And that's an enormous difference. Wanting help is just the awareness that you need something. Asking for help is putting your hand in the air,I said, okay, I'm willing to reach out and grab whomever is going to help out, but I'm asking for it. And so that's an example that we've had in Iola. In Humboldt, Kansas, and I can take no credit for this, there's a group known as a Boulder Humboldt. And that is a confederation of business owners, entrepreneurs, movers and shakers who have added businesses throughout Humboldt. So the best...And from my money, the best little honky tonk in Kansas is the Hitching Post in Humboldt, Kansas. And they have live music every night, every weekend night, excuse me. Probably the most expansive collection of whiskeys that you could want or need. And it is an incredibly successful business and an incredibly successful gathering place. And again, was started.by an individual who moved to Humboldt who had connections with people who had multiple generations of their family within Humboldt. And they were able to continue to build that business and be patient as it was built. they live, to your point earlier, they live and work in the community. The gentleman who owns that business is a city council person in Humboldt, Kansas. And...Kevin Klinkenberg (30:48.88)is really devoted towards overall community health and community growth. those are, and those businesses are now moving beyond. So Hitching Post is moving towards, I think it's third year of operations. So kind of living past that initial start at birth. Wild Bloom, I believe is to year four and five in Iola. So we have some wonderful businesses that are outside of what people would expect in a small community.again, because there've been collectivist approach. So hitching posts exists because of the collective that is a bold or humble and humble. Wild Bloom exists because of multiple collective groups within Iola that were, had a vested interest in these success stories. So the one, I confess the one business I remember from going through Iola is I stopped at the butcher shop right off the highway, which was a pretty incredible operation.And I think at the time I was kind of thinking about, we're not very far from ranch country. I had a cooler with me. want to buy some steaks or whatever and take them home with me. And of course the selection was incredible. The prices were way better than when I get in the city. And it's pretty much like fresh off the ranch. Right. I mean, you might have driven by cattle that were lamenting that their buddy was gone and ended up in your cooler instead.Yeah. So one of the thing I definitely I know about the area is you have this north south bike trail. Yeah. That comes through that goes for, I don't know, 100 miles or something. Yeah. Is that the Prairie Spirit? Prairie Spirit Trail. Yeah. What impact has that had on the area? So one, we have a very high rate of folks who bike or walk to work. Comparatively, I just pulled that data.We are higher than the state average, I think almost twice as high as the state average and people that walk or bike to work. So to me, that signifies two things. is it's pedestrian or bike traffic is built into the community. think part of that is because of the trails. There's 60 miles of trail in Allen County alone.Kevin Klinkenberg (33:09.622)so that's around the, what will become the new state park, Lehigh Portland state park. That's going to be on the edge of Viola. let's say it was a lake that was publicly owned and privately owned and then was deeded over to the state of Kansas and, Kansas department of wildlife and parks is turning that into a new state park. So there's a lot of trails around that and people have access to those trails for a while. Thrive Island County, maintenance is those trails on behalf of KDWP right now.we have trails though, that also we, we think of in, in rural communities, you think of your trails as out somewhere out towards the woods. I mean, you're go ride around and walk around, but there's also dedicated trails in Iola, that go to the hospital. spoiler alert, we did get a new hospital. I started the story talking about the, this, closing of the hospital, new hospitals added, to the elementary school, a new elementary school and to the high school, middle school, and also to around.Not to, we're working on getting trails all through the main thoroughfares in town, but there's also trails around Allen Community College in Iowa as well. So we are addicted to trail building and maintenance because we have a population that in many respects is income challenged. And an automobile, even though to most of us is an automatic purchase to a lot of our neighbors and friends, it's a luxury.And so if you do not have an automobile, but you need to get to work or you need to make your appointment or you need to get to school, you need to have a safe way to do so. And so I think that that trail system is. It's part of a wider, pedestrian and bike travel understanding and folks in our community are not embarrassed to do so. And it's because there's not.There's not the income stratification that exists. I mean, in some communities, if you see someone that is riding their bike to work, there's three categories either, they're, they're a granola type that just wants to show us that they're more fit and better than the rest of us. They are too poor to purchase a vehicle or they get a DUI and they can't drive right now. I mean, that is the truth in, our community because the, because of the prevalence of the trail system.Kevin Klinkenberg (35:35.002)If someone is walking or biking to work, it's really hard to codify them. I wonder if they fall into this category or that category just because it's the norm. So we're very fortunate that those trails exist and they do. It also affects, as you mentioned, the glamping outdoors, outdoor recreation, infrastructure and commercialization that exists in our area. That's very helpful. So again, in Humboldt, there is a camping, kayaking,and BMX riding facility known as Base Camp. And it is located at a trailhead. And so you can jump off Prairie Spirit or Southwind Trail. You can go into Base Camp. The, again, the state park is full of trails and also on Prairie Spirit and connect to Southwind Trails as well. Yeah. And then if you ride it far enough, you'll connect to the Flint Hills Trail. Yeah, exactly. Which is.over a hundred miles East West trail. Right. Exactly. My wife and I have ridden a few times. Okay. Cool. Yeah. we, we, one of our favorite events of the years, we go to the symphony and the foothills. Yeah. which is, I almost hate to talk about it because I don't want, I don't want it to become too popular. You don't want people to show up. Yeah. I really don't want people from the coast flying in and, and, making this, you know, too expensive, but my God, it's an incredible thing. Right.just one of the coolest events that we do on a regular basis with where the Kansas City Symphony goes out onto a active cattle ranch in the Flint Hills and performs a concert. But we've made a habit of going and writing a different section of the Flint Hills Trail every year, which is really a fun experience as well. But haven't done the Prairie Spirit, so I'm...Interested to do that. You absolutely should. mean, we, we talked to cyclists who do the same thing, who are connected using the Prairie Spirit to get to the Flint Hills. We're doing a major ride and they're always impressed with the quality of the trails. the Prairie, I, I can only say I only ride or have ridden a portion of it. so, and if you happen to see me riding, can, you can, guess a, is it.Kevin Klinkenberg (37:46.192)Poverty is a DUI or is it granola? one? What's the reason? But no, we're very fortunate that that trail system exists and fortunate that we are the custodians of that trail system. And that's one thing that I would say to, if you're in a rural context and you're just trying to think of something that you could add that would improve quality of life, would be a quality of life amenity, which by the way is an absolute necessity now.That's reason people are choosing to locate themselves in different places. Obviously housing matters, obviously childcare matters, obviously the possibility of earning a comfortable income matters. But if those three things are satisfied, they're making decisions about where to land based on, you know, is there a quality of life, amenity that I can connect myself with? You have, you have space and you have dirt. You are almost there. You are almost to the, to having a trail.or a system of trails in your community on the edge of your community. Please, please talk to Thrive Allen County. We have a lot of experience of doing trail work. We have blown it and messed it up in different places so we can help you avoid those problems as well. But that is a way in which you can activate your community and you can also contribute to the overall health of your community as well. So I want to talk a little bit more about the place making aspect of this.Like I mentioned before, went to high school in a small town in central Missouri and before that I did first through eighth grade in a small town in southern Minnesota.things that were memories that really stick out for me was, know, if you live in a small community and you're a kid, like riding a bike is a normal thing. Yeah. And I used to ride my bike everywhere. And it was accepted. It was normalized. It was easy to do and safe. There's very little traffic on most of the streets. But as soon as you hit 16 years old, like it is theKevin Klinkenberg (39:54.78)uncoolest thing in the world. You've got to have a car. You've got to be cruising around. there, one of the things that has really interested me that I've tried to, I've tried to articulate, I haven't done a great job of it, but I've thought a lot about, which is most small towns are absolutely natural places for the sort of walking, biking lifestyle that.quote unquote urbanists talk about all the time. it's actually, they were built for that originally. But it also bumps up against like the, there's a culture aspect, which seems to not embrace that in most small towns. And I experienced that. I still see it all the time. And I've often thought like really, I guess maybe I want your reaction to this. One of the things I've thought is thatone of the best economic development approaches for a lot of small towns is to be the antithesis of the big city and the big city, people think of it as urban with all this cool stuff to do. But the reality is most people are spending a ton of time in a car, getting from place to place, commute, whether not just commuting, but going shopping, kids activities, et cetera. Looking for a parking spot. Looking for a parking spot. but in a small town,those, it almost ought to be like, that's the place where you could really sell this idea of a lifestyle where you get on your bike and get to a lot of places. You could walk to the town square and that should be a real competitive advantage. wonder if you could, you think that's. Yeah. So why does that not happen? No, I think that's a, I think that is such an insightful question. and one that we struggle with a lot. so I want to, I want to tackle it in a couple of different ways.One is back to the mythology. What's a marker of success? Marker of success is to be able to have your preferred automobile and typically multiple automobiles. And that doesn't end just because you're in a small town. People still want to virtue or virility signal with their automobiles. And because of the work and the terrain in which people live in small towns in rural Kansas, automobiles are typically bigger. Automobiles are bigger anywhere.Kevin Klinkenberg (42:13.868)Always constantly. that again, back to the American dream model, excess is our love language as a culture. so at the same way you got, you have a lot of big vehicles and we need, we're going to signal that we're doing well via this big vehicle, especially if you struggle with multi-generational poverty. Here's a purchase you can make that is a signal that does not require the type of overhead as a home.So I'm going to buy this vehicle. It's going to show everyone that I'm doing okay. The only way to show everyone that is to use said vehicle until I can't make the payments on it anymore. that's not a, that's not a purely rural experience, but it's one that shows up a lot, especially in socioeconomically, depressed areas. Yeah. Here's my $50,000, vehicle in front of my $40,000 house. Sure. Sure. yeah. So that, that, that occurs a lot. There's still,There's still status signaling through via vehicles. That's the first one. Second one is it costs communities more to provide the infrastructure necessary for safe pedestrian and bicycle traffic. If you have X amount of dollars in your county budget or in your city budget to build roads and it's going to take, you know, 5 % more to add a bike lane.to change the width of your sidewalks and you have to decide either we do the project without those things or we don't do the project at all because everyone is clamoring for those things. In most cases, they're going to choose to add the infrastructure without these dedicated spaces. Part of my organization's efforts is to educate communities that you can do that in a cost effective way. You can add those things in a way that's cost effective. So,I think we're moving the needle in that direction. I think that that's still a big issue. we have some, so there's some cultural status signaling. We have some infrastructure cost challenges there. And then also the antithesis of the big city idea is very interesting because typically when people see adults riding their bikes, if you are from a rural community,Kevin Klinkenberg (44:34.576)You only see that when you go to larger communities. I remember having, again, I did grad school in Portland and Portland is an incredibly bike friendly community. If you talk to people who drive in Portland, who do not also cycle there, they lament how bike friendly it is. But if you are a person traveling in a large city, from a rural context to a large city, you see for the first time.city infrastructure that has bike lanes, has bike crossing, pedestrian cross, a lot more foot traffic, a lot more bike traffic. And it can be really alarming to your sensibility of what it is to get from place A to place B. And so, man, did we have a scare, I almost hit that person on a bike. Do I really want to deal with that back home? In a place where you're sharing literal traffic lanes as opposed to driving next to a bike lane.so on and so forth. So I think you're right. think there there is a sense in which, you do want to be the antithesis of the big city. But where you say that and you go, so make yourself more walk walkable and bikeable. There are folks in smaller towns who go, yeah, man, there's a lot of cyclists in that big city that I that I visited. And it was really difficult to navigate. I think that's shifting. We're very fortunate in that even in our town of five thousand people, there are folks who are interested in.making a transition from predominantly using their vehicle, their automobile to get around to using their bike or just walking again, twice as high as the state average of folks who getting to work that way. So I think we're seeing that, that shift. And I think that is a selling point for why we're inviting people to spend time in our area or consider moving to our area. Because if that is a lifestyle change you would like to make or that you've already embraced, thenThere's probably a way in which you can get everywhere you need to go in Iola or Humboldt or elsewhere in Allen County on your bike or on your own two feet.Kevin Klinkenberg (46:38.566)Another thing that has been really interesting the last few years, in the wake of COVID and all of the policies and changes that happened, there's been an awful lot written and talked about in regards to like people moving. People leaving cities, looking for smaller towns. Sometimes they're leaving the city and moving to the suburbs. Sometimes they're maybe moving from the suburbs to a small town or an exurb.And obviously, I don't need to rehash all of that, but there's been a lot of conversation about that for the last few years. And it feels a little bit like there's been a shift in perception in the culture about small town living in a positive way. What have you noticed the last four or five years? First, a little bit of a, I don't want to dampen that.that exuberance for small town living. But I think the data is starting to show us that people dip their toe into rural life and then they have went back to the cities or to the suburbs or so on and so forth. But in some cases, that's that's true. Just people have chosen a city, a new city, and they've left. So Austin's a great example. Austin boomed post pandemic and now their vacancy rate in particular apartments, condos, things like that.is astronomical because people are like, well, this was cool. And now I'm ready to go back to where my job is or where I lived previously. And so I think that's happening. The shuffling of the deck is resettling itself, so to speak. I do think you're right that there is a more positive perception of rural living than there used to be. I think it's because COVID taught us that everything could be truly remote.And if you can survive and maybe even thrive, and you talk to some folks and the best years of their life, with all due respect to people who lost loved ones during COVID or struggled with that, or still dealing with the health effects following COVID, there are some people who will tell you that COVID changed my life. I was at home with my family. I was taking more, more direct self-care. I was making efforts toKevin Klinkenberg (49:00.964)identify some things in my character that I want to change. It changed my life. So being remote was a positive. And so I think, what if I did that geographically as well? What if I did that socially as well? And I located myself in someplace a little more remote. Would that also be advantageous to me? And I think COVID also reminded us of the power of knowing people and being known by people.I think that is probably the primary reason in which people are choosing, if they're not business owners or entrepreneurs, people are choosing to live in smaller communities or move to smaller communities, even if the numbers aren't as great as they were immediately post-COVID, because they see an opportunity to be known by their neighbors and to know their neighbors. Because when that was taken away from us, for so many of us,that was relationally cataclysmic. And it made us, it gave us all, but it also gave us time to go, okay, how well do I really know the folks that I'm not seeing anymore? And does that bother me that I don't know them? And could I know them better? And I think in a rural context, there's still that capacity to know the people that live on your street and to really interact with them. And not that it's impossible.in an ex-urban or suburban or urban context, but it might be a little less immediate than it is in a rural context. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the joke that the best thing about living in a small town is everybody knows everybody. The worst thing about living in a small town is everybody knows everybody. For sure. That's absolutely true. I think maybe COVID reminded us though.The worst thing isn't as bad as the best thing could be good. doubt. What are, what are some of the things that your communities need to get better at? like what, if you were to chart a positive course or continue the improvement, what, what do you need to do better? What are you trying to work on now? So one thing we need to do is accentuate a positive that I mentioned earlier, more firm and reliable collective approaches to problem solving.Kevin Klinkenberg (51:22.138)So that's one thing. A second thing that we need to get better at is our anchor institutions need to position themselves as irrepressible agencies for good. So, for example, our school districts, our community college in Iowa, Kansas, and then the city governments and county governments, they need to, we need to work together to see ourselves as innovation agents.and benevolent disruptors as opposed to status quo maintenance agencies. And again, I think that's applicable in most rural contexts and probably applicable in a lot of community contexts, because again, you are either moving towards becoming a hope factory or bitterness factory and status quo will lead you to bitterness because those who don't achieve it will become in bitter that they didn't achieve it.or those that you're trying to force feed it to as the end result of their life will wonder why you didn't chart a more hopeful course for them. So we need our anchor organizations to see themselves as agencies of good and do so without shame. And I think that is obviously a difficult thing to map out or reverse engineer, but what it requiresis leadership that is constantly in pursuit of not utilitarianism or what works, but what is going to have the best long term effect on the quality of life of the people that work for the organization or that the organization serves. those are two things that I would say even more collective approaches to problem solving. So housing is a great example.Everybody's struggling with housing right now, whether you're in an urban context or a rural context. And the old ways of solving that, just, you know, here's a here's a platable era, you know, several plaits, plaited land that the city owns. And we want a developer to come in and you can build a subdivision. And we're going to give you these tax breaks. We're going to incentivize this in so many different ways. I think that's still maybe possible in certain contexts and rural contexts. It's just not possible.Kevin Klinkenberg (53:44.828)One, because the city typically doesn't own that much land. And two, a developer then has to say, can I, what are the margins going to be? Because I'm going to have to bring a crew down here. I'm going to get supplies down here. Are there already contractors down here? There's already people. There's master craftsmen and so on and so forth. But there's not a contractor and there's not a readily available crew. So, for example, the state of Kansas right now, the Department of Commerce has offered the frame grant.that is going to give capital to community colleges that have a building trades program, construction program to help identify the gap in the housing ecosystem and address it. And I think things like that, ideas like that are going to be so important moving forward because they're going to be necessary for everyone to get on the same page. In Humboldt, Kansas, the most reliable developer, with the exception of maybe in the past year,was the school district. High school built one house every two years or so. And it was a guaranteed reliable development. One house in Kansas City, who no one will notice, in a community of 2,500 people, a new house is, I guarantee you, is the talk of the town. So I think that is something that's going to be necessary is that we continue to embrace and expect collective solutions.collaborative solutions to complex problems. And then that our anchor agencies, and this could even include our anchor institutions and maybe even our industrial partners, see themselves with a responsibility to be benevolent disruptors.One thing kind of as part of that conversation, I might be reading a little bit into this, but I certainly know from my experience that oftentimes in rural communities, there is more of an acceptance of just status quo. It is what it is. I don't mean to say this like an insulting way to anybody, but.Kevin Klinkenberg (55:58.22)not necessarily a push for excellence or striving. Maybe the better way to say it is not as much striving to achieve. And I think part of that's because it's more comfortable and easy to live in a smaller town, costs are less, et cetera, et cetera. In a big city, you find a lot more people who really striving for something. Is that an aspect at all of kind of like, as you think aboutthe next phases are achieving more in your county? No. I'll elaborate. No, if you don't, if you don't believe that striving for excellence is part of the rural expectation, you have not been to a county fair. So if you go to a county fair and see the effort that people put into things that will neverbe recognized outside of a three day event and the sweltering heat at the end of July in rural Kansas, then I don't know what to you. if it's speak with, communicate with folks who are trying to grow the best stand of wheat that they have in their life every year, speak with people who aredo not care about commodity prices, but are proud of the way that they're being fields look, or the person that is growing the best beef you've ever eaten in your life. and I think that pursuit of excellence is still there. I understand what you're saying that, and I think the, what you're, what you're actually articulating is something that's present in rural communities, which is the reluctance to be disruptive. I don't, I don't want.to in any way rock the boat because rocking the boat will, could potentially bring shame on myself. And they still on the honor and shame, social economy and small towns is still very real because most people are multiple or are part of a multiple generation. you know, family tree it's been in that area. So my gosh, if you mess up, then the shame that bring on your family.Kevin Klinkenberg (58:21.628)it moves up and down that family tree. It's not isolated to just yourself. If you are an entrepreneur in Atlanta and you have no connection to the community, you just landed there, and you try a business and it flops, but then you're able to go somewhere else. There's no shame involved in that. You, you are.a pioneer. You are, you know, you're an entrepreneur and everyone is going to be impressed by you because you had a great big idea that just didn't work. And here's 18 reasons it didn't work that you had no control over. If you're an entrepreneur in Iowa, Kansas and your business flops and you still have to live in that community and everybody's going to ask your aunt when she goes to church on Sunday, well, you know.We saw that he started that your, your nephew started that auto body place. Is this, is it still open? Didn't seem like there were many cars there. Didn't seem, didn't seem like he's doing, is he doing okay? he's, they had to close. that's terrible. And your aunt's the one who has to answer that question for you. And so I think, I don't think it's a reluctance to pursue excellence. I think it is a fear that they will somehow.do something that will be shameful. Interesting. And I think that that's very real. And that burden of failure sits heavy in a rural community. failure in a rural community historically is very obvious. It is driving by a field that is fallow. It is driving by a farmhouse that's in disrepair.because there's not money to take care of it. So it is so much louder than it can be in other places. Interesting. I appreciate that. last thing I wanted to ask about, as I've looked before at coming to Humboldt in particular, I was really impressed by just the amount of activity that is programmed in the town on a regular basis.Kevin Klinkenberg (01:00:33.979)That's something that most small towns don't do much of. I wonder if you could speak to a little bit. So like, I always think about that, like in a community there's hardware and there's software and that's like the software side and talk a little bit about what Humboldt has been doing and what that has meant for the overall success of the place. And the credit again goes toward Boulder Humboldt, that group, and then also theirCity Administrator Cole Herder, shout out Cole Herder. Listen, if you want to know what it is to be a good City Administrator in a small town, which is part PR Director, part Public Works Director, part Ombudsman and Accountant and everything else, Cole Herder and Humble Matt Rader in Iowa, those are dues that you need to put on your radar and have a coffee with.In Humboldt, that software analogy is so perfect because that directly connects to their sense of self. And so all of these events take place. For example, they brought back an event called Water Wars in the summer in which the municipal fire department is involved and it's a part parade, part massive citywide water balloon fight, part public water sports.events on the town square. And there is, it is pure frivolity, but they have embraced it because it is a spectacle of joy for the community. And in that capacity as a spectacle of joy, it ceases to be frivolous because again, if you are driving or trying to move your community toa becoming a hope factory, you need spectacles of joy. You need reasons that people can revel in the fact that they live in that place, because so often we are told as rural people, it's a shame you live there. Gosh, wouldn't it be great if you just moved somewhere else? So these spectacles of joy in which people can fully embrace, my gosh, I'm so proud or even because we don't have to defend it.Kevin Klinkenberg (01:02:54.96)And that's typically what a small town person is told they have to do. Defend why you want, why do you live there? No, I'm just going to be happy that I'm here right now. Iola just had their Christmas block party on the square in which, you know, Santa visited and kids played games and the businesses served hot chocolate. And it's, mean, it's, it is very Hallmark movie. By the way, one of the, one of the largesttown squares in Kansas. So come and visit if town squares are your thing. First of all, you and I probably aren't going to hang out at parties, but if that's what you love, come to the Iowa block party for Christmas and you will get a taste of Americana that you have been hankering for. But again, it's just a spectacle of joy and communities need those things.They need those spectacles of joy. And I think that's also to your point earlier about why people are choosing to locate themselves in rural communities, because they can do it in an unabashed way. They don't have to defend why they're doing it. doesn't have to be cool. It doesn't have to be on trend. It can just be a thing that's fun that you can revel in. And in in Humboldt and in Iowa, in Humboldt especially, there have been a group of folks who have sought to addto the community calendar, these spectacles of joy that have become a collective experience of hopefulness and celebration. And I don't know that you need to defend that. And I think we would probably all live in healthier communities if we engaged in those things without the need to qualify why they exist.Jared, I think that's a great place to wrap. Very, very, very interesting. This was a lot of fun. I think at some point down the road, I might like to have you on again and talk some more. There's probably four or five more questions that I still have in my head. I'd love to talk about. But this is super interesting. If people are trying to find you and find your communities, what's the best way to do it?Kevin Klinkenberg (01:05:09.084)ThriveAllenCounty.org. You can find out everything about the organization that I work for and you can connect with all of my colleagues there. You can email me at Jared, J-A-R-E-D at ThriveAllenCounty.org. And that's the best way to get in touch with me. I'm on LinkedIn because I'm trying to be a grownup right now. But other than that, I am willfully disengaged from social media.beyond that, for minutes, not because I'm a rural lead, but because I'm trying to protect my peace in that way. So shoot me an email, find my phone number on, on the internet. And I'd love, I'd love to talk to you. If you are rural and you want to argue with me about this stuff, please, if you are a person living in a different context and you want to chat more about this, I would love to do so. Fantastic. Jared, thanks so much.Good luck with everything and I'll definitely make a point to bring the family down and come visit one of these days. Sounds great. Thank you so much Kevin. Thanks Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jesse Russell and Ryan Andrews fit the profile of successful small developers. That is, they had no experience at all before trying it, almost no money, but have a ton of passion and creativity. Jesse and Ryan discuss how they came from the worlds of tv show production and finance to create a small development business in beautiful Bend, Oregon. They now focus primarily on cottage-style housing and unique, communal projects.Beyond their projects, what is incredibly fascinating is their story of creating a locally-based investment fund so they can do more projects and truly work hand-in-hand with people invested in their community's success. If you're someone that is truly based in your community, and want to see more small-scale projects get done, the details of their model are worth a listen. It's an astonishing example of starting with one modest project, and quickly moving up to having $100 million of projects in progress.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Mayor David Holt, far younger than me, has an impressive resume for any big-city Mayor. He's been elected overwhelmingly twice, and his city is clearly on the rise. If you're not familiar with what's going on in Oklahoma, this is a chance at some insight.Moving out of a dark period in the city's history in the early 1990s, Oklahoma City took it upon itself to pursue a dramatic makeover. Every city is a work in progress, but what's been accomplished in the thirty years is remarkable. Mayor Holt and I discuss the MAPS program, initiated by his predecessors, and now working through its fourth installment. Most cities and city leaders talk about the importance of “quality of life” issues and improvements, but Mayor Holt and OKC have actually done something about it. Their MAPS program, which has a unique pay-as-you-go feature, is a terrific example of local government initiative. Does OKC show a model of successful big city governance? Listen, and decide for yourself.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It's an intriguing irony that we live in the managerial age, with more managers than ever, and yet so much in our society is so poorly managed. But what can be done? Is it just an inevitable fact of modern life?In this episode, I break down my experience using the design charrette process in planning and architecture. And, I discuss the lessons learned from years of creating these very successful processes. Can this unique approach to problem-solving help us better manage our cities, towns and institutions? How does the charrette process get to such successful solutions, in so short a period of time?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

If you've traveled much to countries outside of the US, you frequently see a type of building that sits right up on the street, but has a landscaped courtyard space behind it. Instead of the ubiquitous American form of street-front yard-building-back yard, this type of building lacks a front yard in exchange for park-like spaces in the interior. As architects, we call these a variety of names, from courtyard buildings to perimeter blocks and on and on.Alicia Pederson has come to Twitter/X and quickly gained a large following by highlighting the virtues of this kind of building. In particular, we talk about why it works so well for families with small children. This historic type is actually quite rare in the United States, but common virtually everywhere else in the world.Alicia follows in the footsteps of people who have a passion for urban living, but aren't necessarily design or development professionals. She focuses on this one approach, and we talk about how it might happen in her city of Chicago and elsewhere.For a little more depth, check out this site for her exposition on this building type.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

In the urbanism and planning world, we talk a lot about Missing Middle Housing. Rightfully so, since it's a critical element that helps a community succeed and provide the total range of housing options. And, it's historically what we used to build a LOT of, before the advent of zoning and modern development codes.Hal Shapiro of Real Property Group in Overland Park, KS, talks with us about his unique niche and take on working in this field. Hal started on the lending side of the equation, and eventually worked his way into property ownership and development. But his projects are something different than what we talk about with Missing Middle Housing. Hal has worked on projects somewhat larger than the historic four and six and twelve-plexes we talk about so much. But he's also much smaller than the big boys.Hal and I had a chance to reconnect at the most recent Small Scale Developer Forum, hosted by Jim Heid. I interviewed Jim recently on the podcast as well. Hal has been very involved in the Forums for several years, and is an enthusiastic supporter of entrpreneurship generally. Hal offers some great tips in this for working at a unique scale, that hardly anyone else pursues. For anyone that's got a bit of experience in the development world, and loves walkable places, this is definitely worth a listen.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Stop what you're doing, and listen to this episode. Trust me, it's worth it.I came across Joe Jimenez by way of Coach Carson, who has interviewed him twice. Joe lives in Kalispell, Montana, and now owns a business called Switchback Suites. Joe and I discuss his interest in the FIRE movement, (FIRE = Financial Independence, Retire Early) and how he eventually translated that into his own world. A key piece has been using house hacking to get into real estate investing, and to as he says, “play life on easy mode.”I absolutely loved this discussion, and hope it's helpful to listeners. I hope it can especially reach younger listeners, as Joe really lays out well what can be accomplished to set your life up for success. All it takes is some intention and a willingness to make a few sacrifices.Joe and I also get into some depth on travel hacking, which is essentially making a game or system of using credit card bonuses for travel. I've used this for years, as has Joe, and we talk about how to do it, the benefits of being systematic, and he shares some very fun anecdotes.Here's Joe's photo of Singapore Suites Class:A few links we discuss:* Mr. Money Mustache* Chris Guillebeau and The Art of Non-Conformity* Go Curry Cracker* Paula Pant* Jillian Johnsrud* One mile at a time* Frequent miler * Choose FI travelFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Before this episode, I knew nothing about Mineral Wells, TX. Now, i'm interested to visit. Mineral Wells is a small, historic resort town west of Fort Worth. It's the sister city of Hot Springs, Arkansas. And our guest's family has been on the forefront to save it from recent decline.For me, this, what Macy Nix Alexander relates to me is how people who truly love their place can be the change that helps turn its fortunes around. This is a remarkable tale that can be relatable to all manner of places, regardless of their historic assets. Mineral Wells has some advantages, to be sure. But what they really seem to have are people willing to put their time and money on the line to make a difference. And as much as anything, Macy's story speaks to the power of her father's motto to “live below your means.”I won't give it all away, but the story of how they've gone from owning inexpensive rental properties to starting local businesses and renovating majestic old hotels is nothing short of inspiring. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Eric Kronberg, of Kronberg Urbanists + Architects, is a wealth of knowledge for people wanting to truly understand the realities of new construction in cities. First off, it's Kronberg with a long o, not as I initially pronounced it. Apologies to Eric.Eric and I talk about his work in missing middle housing, working in development in Atlanta, and the opportunities and perils of doing infill new housing. TLDR: it ain't easy, but there are solutions. A couple of great takeaways I had from this episode are that the most cost effective way to build is a 3 story walk-up and the typical current strategy of upzoning commercial corridors and protecting single-family neighborhoods does not get us to an affordable place. In fact, it's encouraging the most expensive forms of housing, and discouraging the least expensive.I highly recommend checking out Eric's site for more. Here's a few links:Power PlexesLa France WalkInc CodesATL ADU CoFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe