Podcasts about new urbanist

In this episode, I sit down with OG Steve Mouzon, a well-known architect, designer and instigator of the New Urbanist movement, to explore the art of building places that truly matter. Steve shares compelling stories from his journey in urbanism, including projects like Mahogany Bay Village and Providence in Huntsville, Alabama, where he brought local materials and craftsmanship to life in unique, resilient ways. Steve makes a bold case for why "impossible" projects bring out the best in urban design, inspiring us to rethink what's achievable. We discuss how generalist thinking, leadership, and a willingness to challenge outdated regulations are essential to creating sustainable, beautiful spaces. This conversation goes beyond theory, offering real insights on creativity, humility, and the power of community involvement in transforming our cities.TAKEAWAYS:Preserve Land Character Through Simplicity and Local Craftsmanship: Beautiful, sustainable spaces are achieved by honoring the land's character and using regional materials and crafts.Embrace a Generalist Approach for Holistic Solutions: Urbanists should adopt a broad, adaptable mindset, enabling them to see connections and address complex urban challenges creatively.Challenge the Status Quo to Drive Innovation: Innovative urban solutions emerge when architects and planners push beyond conventional practices and embrace fresh perspectives.Community Involvement and Intergenerational Exchange Lead to Thriving Spaces: Engaging with the community and drawing on insights across generations helps foster urban environments that truly serve their residents.Simplicity Over Complexity in Sustainable Design: Simple, resilient designs often outperform complex systems, enhancing sustainability and adaptability in a way that prioritizes human flourishing.CHAPTERS:00:00 Preserving Land Character and Urbanism02:48 Steve's Journey in Architecture08:00 Innovative Projects and Community Building24:06 Barriers to Building Better Places41:15 Leadership and Overcoming Challenges45:12 Exploring Local Patterns and Historical Insights51:01 Building Codes and Egress Regulations57:31 The Complexity of Urban Planning and Building Standards01:03:27 The Importance of Generalist Thinking in Urbanism01:10:54 The Fragility of Modern Construction Methods01:19:21 Simplicity vs. Complexity in Sustainable Building Practices01:30:05 The Vision of Adaptability and Simplicity01:31:30 Competing Visions in Sustainability01:33:54 Foundations of Sustainable Places01:37:48 Intergenerational Exchange in Urbanism01:40:29 Innovative Developments in Urban Design01:47:31 Common Threads of Successful Projects01:52:11 The Importance of Generosity and Humility01:57:26 Lessons from Pain and InnovationSTEVE'S RECOMMENDED PLACES TO VISIT​Providence​Mahogany Bay​Carlon Landing​Wheeler​South Main, CO​Seaside, FL​Rosemary, FL​I'on​Habersham​NW ArkansasCONTACT STEVE:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemouzon/X: https://x.com/stevemouzon?lang=enInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.originalgreen?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==Book: The Original GreenWebsites: newurbanguild.com (New Urban Guild)originalgreen.org (Original Green)katrinacottages.com (Katrina Cottages)CONNECT WITH AUSTIN TUNNELLNewsletter: https://playbook.buildingculture.com/https://www.instagram.com/austintunnell/https://www.linkedin.com/in/austin-tunnell-2a41894a/https://twitter.com/AustinTunnellCONNECT WITH BUILDING CULTUREhttps://www.buildingculture.com/https://www.instagram.com/buildingculture/https://twitter.com/build_culturehttps://www.facebook.com/BuildCulture/SPONSORSThank you so much to the sponsors of The Building Culture Podcast!Sierra Pacific Windows: https://www.sierrapacificwindows.com/One Source Windows: https://onesourcewindows.com/

⁠A is for Architecture's⁠ 108th episode is a conversation with urban designer and President of the Congress for the New Urbanism, Mallory B.E. Baches.  With roots in the works of Jane Jacobs and Lewis Mumford, and later through Leon Krier and Christopher Alexander, the CNU was founded in 1993 as a ‘planning and development approach based on the principles of how cities and towns had been built for the last several centuries: walkable blocks and streets, housing and shopping in close proximity, and accessible public spaces. In other words: New Urbanism focuses on human-scaled urban design.'  The movement's influence has been very wide, underpinning new classical and traditional developments, such as at Brandevoort in Holland, Harbor Town, USA and Poundbury in England. Arguably, recent movements like 15 Minute Cities have their roots in New Urbanist logics too. As such, might New Urbanism best be understood as other modern? You can find Mallory on her personal website, on Instagram, LinkedIn and X too. Thanks for listening. +  Music credits: ⁠Bruno Gillick

Frank Starkey and his family are one of those rare breeds of Floridians that actually have deep roots in the Sunshine State. We talk about how they sought to owner their grand-dad's wishes as they ultimately developed the family cattle ranch in New Port Richey. A big part of their work was the Traditional Neighborhood Development (TND) called Longleaf. And later, the Starkey Ranch project.Here's a funny real estate video about Longleaf: (funny to me, anyway)If you listen to Frank, you'll learn how an architect has a whole different perspective on the present and the future, and why he thinks he has a luxurious lifestyle now in downtown New Port Richey. You can see some of his current efforts at this link to his website.This is episode number 50 of The Messy City podcast - thanks so much for listening. If you're new to this, welcome! I look forward to the next 50, as we explore the issues and people who love traditional human settlements, and are trying to create them. I love talking to the do-ers, to the creators, and everyone who has skin in the game that's trying to build a more humane world.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Transcript: Kevin K (00:01.18) Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I'm happy today to be joined by my friend and fellow new urbanist, long time participant, Frank Starkey, joining us from Florida. Frank, how you doing today? Frank Starkey (00:20.337) Howdy, Kevin. Doing great. Happy to be with you. I've been... Kevin K (00:22.908) I didn't even check. I assume you're in Florida at home, but you could really be anywhere. Okay. Frank Starkey (00:25.617) Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yep, I'm in our we recently moved into a townhouse that Andy McCloskey, who used to work for me, built in town here and we just bought one and we're very happy here. It's really nice. Kevin K (00:40.348) Cool, cool. And you're in New Port Richey? Frank Starkey (00:45.169) Yes, Newport Richey is on the northwest side of the Tampa Bay region. It's part of the region. We're in that suburban sprawl miasma that characterizes all Florida cities. And we're about 25 miles as the crow flies from Tampa, basically from downtown Tampa, and probably 15 to 20 miles from Clearwater and 30 miles from St. Pete. So we're And we're right on the Gulf. We have a river that runs right through town that river miles from where we are out to the Gulf is maybe five river miles. So you could easily kayak and paddle board right out there or upstream pretty quickly you're into the Cypress freshwater wetlands. So we've got a lot of good nature around. Kevin K (01:39.516) Do you ever do that? Do you ever get out on a kayak or whatever and get out there on the river? Frank Starkey (01:43.089) Yeah, it's been a while. But if you go up to there's a preserve that the city owns that's up in the freshwater area. And if you're in there, you think you're in the Tarzan. A lot of the Tarzan movies and shows were filmed in Florida swamps and you feel like you're in a Tarzan movie. You can't see that you're in the middle of town. And if you go out to the coast, the barrier island and right where we are. They really start and go south from here. So from here on up through the big bend of the Panhandle in Florida, the coastline is all marshes and salt flats and grass wetlands. It's a much prettier coastline in my opinion than the more built -up barrier islands. But you can go out and kayak for days and days out in the coastal areas and see all kinds of wildlife and water life. So it's pretty cool. Kevin K (02:40.124) That's cool. That's really cool. Well, Frank and I have been talking about trying to do this for a while. We'd hoped to hook up in Cincinnati, but schedules just got in the way, as is typical for that event. But I really wanted to talk with you today, Frank, because you hit on a couple of my hot points, which is that you're an architect and a developer. Frank Starkey (02:51.313) you Kevin K (03:06.332) And I know as a designer that you also care a lot about the kind of issues that we talk about routinely within the world of new urbanism and urban design, which is, you know, creating beautiful walkable places. So I just think it'd be interesting. You know, I talked to a lot of people who come into the world of trying to be developers. You and I probably both talked to a lot of fellow architects who we try to encourage to be developers. Frank Starkey (03:06.481) Mm -hmm. Kevin K (03:33.948) And so it's fascinating to me how people come to that. So I wonder if we could start just a little bit by talking about like your path and where, you know, how you got to this point. You, did you grow up in Florida or were you in Texas? Is that right? Frank Starkey (03:51.761) Now I grew up in Florida. I went to college in Texas, but I grew up on a cattle ranch just east of here, in an area that's now called Odessa. It was a 16 ,000 acre, beef cattle ranch that our grandfather had bought in the 1930s. And we were about 20, 20 miles from downtown Tampa and Newport, Richie was our hometown because of the county we're in Pasco County. And so we came to, you know, church school. shopping was in Newport, Ritchie. But I also kind of had an orientation towards Tampa because we were sort of closer that direction. And then my extended family all lived in St. Petersburg. My parents had grown up there and then my dad grew up in Largo on a branch down there that his dad had before the one in Odessa. I... Kevin K (04:41.564) So it's like the rare species of old Florida people, right? So. Frank Starkey (04:45.361) Yeah. Yeah, but man, I have a weird, I've always come from a very mixed, I mean, just a very much kind of background, culturally, geographically, economically. My great grandparents were from, mostly from the upper Midwest. And so we kind of, and my great grandfather on my dad's side. was William Straub, who was the publisher of the St. Petersburg Times. But I later found out that he was instrumental in getting the city to hire John Nolan to do a plan for the remainder of St. Petersburg. He was instrumental in getting the city to buy up a mile of its waterfront to create a continuous waterfront park along the bay in downtown St. Petersburg, which is the crown jewel of the city in terms of civic space. So I kind of grew up and then that that kind of orientation towards parks. He also helped the County, Pinellas County establish a park system, which was one of the earliest ones in the country. And so I kind of this park orientation and public space and civic life and civic engagement was a strain through my whole childhood. You know, my whole is kind of a generational thing in our family. And so that's one thread and. Living in the country, we didn't have much in the way of neighbors. The area of Odessa in those days was pretty poor. So I rode the school bus with kids that had virtually nothing and went to school in the suburbs of Western Pasco, which was where the kids were mostly from the Midwest. Their grandparents had worked for Ford or GM or Chrysler and then they... moved to Florida and the grandkids, you know, the kids moved with them. And so those were the kids I grew up with. And so I, you know, I didn't feel like I grew up in the deep south. People, but I, but I was close enough to it that I understand it, but I don't consider myself a, you know, capital S southerner, my accent notwithstanding to the degree that a good friend of mine, Frank Starkey (07:07.793) I grew up in Plant City on the east side of Tampa, which is much more in the farming world part of Hillsborough County. And he was much more deep south than I was, even though we grew up, you know, 40 miles apart. So it's just a very different cultural setting. So I grew up with, you know, upper Midwest heritage who had been in St. Petersburg since 1899. And then, you know, poor kids, middle -class kids, and then eventually wealthier folks. So I just kind of had this really all over the place cultural background that's not nearly as simple as, I mean, all of Florida has a tapestry of, a patchwork of different kinds of cultural influences. South of I -10, north of I -10, you're in South Georgia or Alabama, but. the peninsula of Florida is very culturally mixed up. Kevin K (08:11.228) So the old canard, I guess, was that the west coast of Florida was populated by people who came from the Midwest and the east coast was from the Northeast. Does that hold true in your experience? Frank Starkey (08:22.129) Yeah, that does hold true, although there were a lot of New Yorkers in Boston, not so much New England, but still a lot of New Yorkers found their way across. So I grew up around a lot of New York Italian descent folks, as well as Midwesterners. So I, you know, it's a wonder I don't have a New York accent or a Michigan accent or a Southern accent, because those were the kind of the three, more about more, you know, Northern accents than. than Southern accents from immediately where I grew up. But yeah, I -75 goes to Detroit and that I -95 on the East Coast goes to New York. And so that means that has an impact. Kevin K (09:06.844) Did you ever know about the Kansas City connection to St. Pete then with J .C. Nichols down there in downtown St. Pete? Frank Starkey (09:17.329) And tell me about it. I mean, I, because Bruce Stevenson's book, I think touched on that because they, they had an APA convention down here back in the 1920s. Kevin K (09:20.54) Well, that's it. Kevin K (09:28.54) Yeah, J .C. Nichols who developed the Country Club Plaza here, starting really in the 19 -teens, later in his life, he was asked to, or he bought property in St. Petersburg, in or near the downtown area. And the whole concept was they were going to essentially build like another version of Country Club Plaza there in downtown St. Pete. Yeah. And so I think like a small portion of it got built down there. Frank Starkey (09:32.785) All right. Frank Starkey (09:51.665) Really? Kevin K (09:57.564) And then maybe the real estate deal fell apart or something like that. But there was, yeah, that was a big push at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (10:03.633) or the Depression hit. Interesting. Now, I wasn't aware of that. I didn't know that he had bought and had plans to develop here. That's interesting. The other, St. Petersburg's, well, the Florida Land Bus was in 1926. So Florida real estate speculation really ended then, and then it didn't pick up again until after World War II. So that might have been the death of it. Kevin K (10:13.084) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin K (10:27.164) Yeah. Yeah. So you find yourself growing up on a ranch then, pretty much in Florida. What takes you to architecture? What takes you to architecture and then to Texas to go to architecture school? Frank Starkey (10:35.505) I'd have been becoming an architect. Frank Starkey (10:42.289) For whatever combination of reasons, one evening when I was in about fourth grade, I, dad recollected this years later. I asked dad at the dinner table, what do you call a person, what do you call a person who designs buildings? Not as a riddle, just, and he said, it's called an architect. And I said, well, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And I never had the sense to question that decision again. So. Kevin K (11:00.54) Yeah. Kevin K (11:09.276) That's how it sounds vaguely familiar. Frank Starkey (11:11.853) you So, you know, whether it was Legos and Lincoln Logs and the Brady Bunch. And when I was a kid, we had a cabin in North Carolina that dad had the shell built by this guy who had a lumber mill up there and he would build a shell for you for $5 ,000 or something. He built that out of green poplar wood. The whole thing was immediately warped and racked and sagged and did everything that. green wood will do, and we immediately put it in a building. But dad spent all of our vacation times up there finishing out the interior of that. So I was just around that construction. And dad was also being a counter rancher, and he knew welding. And he was always tinkering. And in addition to fixing things, he was also inventing implements to use on the ranch and things like that. So he just had a hand building. ethic that, you know, he just kind of had. So whatever made me decide I wanted to design buildings, as I grew up from that point on, I just was all about it. And so by the time I got to high school, I couldn't wait to get into working for an architect. And I was an intern for an architect in Newport, Ritchie, when I was in high school. And then I went to Rice University in Houston to go to architecture school. So after I, and I did my internship here, which is part of the program at Rice for the professional degree. I did that in New York City for Pay Cop, Read and Partners. And another ironic thing was I learned, I had a really great classical architecture history professor in college at Rice who in his summers led, he and his partner who was a art history professor also, a fine arts. Frank Starkey (13:10.289) They led an archaeological excavation outside Rome of a villa from the dated that basically dated a time period of about 600 years straddling the time of Christ. And I've spent the summer after my freshman year on that dig. So I had a had a really strong exposure to classical architecture and urbanism throughout my school. And when I worked for PAY, I worked on James Freed's projects. At that time, we were working on what became the Ronald Reagan building in Washington, D .C. It's the last big building in the federal triangle. And so it's a neoclassical exterior with a very modern interior. It's kind of like a spaceship wrapped inside a federal building. And the other project I worked on a little bit that year was the San Francisco Main Library, which is in the Civic Center right down in the Civic Center of Francisco with the City Hall and the old library. The new library is a mirror of it that's a neoclassical facade on, well, two wings of a neoclassical facade that face the Civic Center side. And then on the backside, which faces Market Street, there's a much more modern interpretation of that commercial core district facing along Market Street. So I worked on these buildings with Sirius that took, you know, this was at the end of the Pomo era of the 80s when everybody was making fun of classical architecture in, the architects were having fun with it or making fun of it, however you look at it. And Fried was taking it more seriously. It was still a updated take on neoclassical architecture. in some of the details, but it was really a fascinating exposure to the actual practice of designing classical buildings, working for one of the most famously modernist firms in the world. So. Kevin K (15:21.628) Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Yeah. That's pretty wild. Was rice, I mean, we're about the same age, was rice kind of like most architecture schools, generally speaking, in their emphasis on looking at modernist design as the holy grail that you must pursue? Frank Starkey (15:28.433) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (15:38.769) Yeah, interestingly, like my childhood and the cultural mix that I described earlier, Rice was sort of in this period at that time where it was between deans. There was a series of, it's too long a story to explain here, but the previous dean who had been there for 15 years or something, O. Jack Mitchell, announced his retirement the day I started classes. And... So he was a lame duck. And then it was, you know, we basically went through a series of searches, deans, dean passed away, interim dean search, a new dean, and then he resigned. So the whole time I was in college, we really didn't have a dean. And the faculty that Mitchell had built was very, I'd say ecumenical. They kind of, we had some diehard theoretical postmodernists and we had. At the other end of the spectrum, we had a guy who did a lot of real estate development who was super practical and we always made fun of him for caring about mundane things like budgets. And I know he was, I made him a laughing stock, which I wish I'd taken more of his classes. But anyway, and then a really good core faculty who had a real sense of, and real care about urban design and. Kevin K (16:46.428) Well, yeah, exactly. Frank Starkey (17:04.401) My sophomore class field trip was to Paris and we did studies of, you know, in groups, each of us studied at Urban Plus. So I really had a strong urban design and contextual sensibility through my architecture class, all my architecture classes. In the background, there was this whole drum beat of postmodernist, post structuralism and deconstructivism. that was going on. I never caught into that. It always just seemed like anything that requires that much intellectual gymnastics is probably just kind of b******t. And it also, I was involved with campus ministries and fellowship of Christian athletes and church. And so I had a sense of mission and doing good in the world. And it also just, it just didn't work with that either. So I didn't really go in for that stuff, but the urban design stuff really did stick with me. And then the classical architecture and Vignoli, which I mentioned to you the other day, that really did kind of stick to me as a methodology. Kevin K (18:29.436) Man, I went for it hook line and sinker, man. It was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I thought deconstructivism was like the coolest thing at that time period. And I bought the whole program for some period of time. And frankly, until I ran across some of Andreas's writings and then started learning about seaside. And that's really what kind of broke it open for me that I started to. Frank Starkey (18:32.433) Really? Frank Starkey (18:40.465) -huh. Frank Starkey (18:52.273) Mm -hmm. Kevin K (18:58.556) see things a little bit differently and all, but I, yeah, I was, I was in deconstructivism was funny because you could just kind of do anything and you know, you could call anything a building basically. Yeah. Frank Starkey (19:07.537) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the author is dead long live the text was the, and so you could just, yeah. And to me, it was just pulling, it was just pulling stuff out of your butt and I just. Kevin K (19:22.636) totally. Yeah. Yeah. It was all b******t, but it was, I guess, fun for a 19 or 20 year old for a little while. So, all right. So fast forward then, did you come back to Florida then pretty much right after school or? Yeah. Frank Starkey (19:25.809) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (19:38.929) Yeah, I did a gap year after college and then ended up in Austin for another year and then came back to work with my brother. So by that time, we had seen, because of where the ranch is situated, it's sort of in the crosshairs of growth patterns coming from Tampa to the south and Clearwater to the southwest. and Newport -Ritchie from the west. So it was, the growth was coming from, at us from two directions. Granddad and you know, this 16 ,000 acres that's 20 miles from downtown Tampa, as you can imagine in the 20th century is going up in value pretty dramatically from 1937 to 19, you know, to the late century. And in the early seventies, he started selling and donating land to the state for preservation. Kevin K (20:24.22) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (20:36.177) and so we had, you know, again, that whole park ethic, and the, so we were selling, kind of selling the Northern parts that were away from the development pattern, off. And it was partly for the state tax planning purposes and also just, but primarily to put the land into conservation. So there would be something left of native Florida for people to see in future generations. That was his. His goal. My brother had my brother six years older than me and had gone to University of Florida and gotten a finance degree. And he came back after college, which was when I was like my senior year in high school and started working for the granddad was still alive and he was working for the estate, helping with that planning. And granddad passed away while I was in college and we had the estate tax to deal with. And we ended up selling some more land to the state for conservation. And he also started learning the development. process. We knew that as much land as we could sell to the state as possible, we were not going to be able to sell at all and we were going to have to develop. Somebody was going to develop land on the ranch. And our family wanted to see that it was done in a way that was, you know, that we would be proud of that, that put together our, you know, our family goals for civic engagement, environmental preservation, and, you know, and also. It was the whole family's sole asset. So it's everybody's retirement fund and principally our parents and our cousins. So we have cousins who are half generation older than us. So we were accepting that development was inevitable and wanted to be more in control of it. So Trae had been talking to me for a while about coming back and working with him on the development stuff in the ranch. So that's what I decided to do in 1995. And the decision point for me, Kevin K (22:09.468) Yeah. Frank Starkey (22:34.449) was, you know, I had set up my career trajectory to become a consulting architect and design buildings for other people. And I realized that I had this opportunity to, you know, have a bigger imprint on developing a neighborhood that could perhaps set a pattern. By that time, I had become knowledgeable about new urbanism and what was going on at Seaside. And And at that point, I think some of the other projects were starting to come out of the ground. So this was 1995. So I was like, well, I, you know, I've got too much opportunity here. And, and with what, what I know and what I have to bring to the table, it just seems like the thing I'd need to do. So I came back and we started working on development on the southwestern corner of the ranch, which was sort of the direction that was the frontline for development. So in 1997, we held our charrette for what became Longleaf, which is a 568 acre traditional neighborhood development that we broke ground on in 1999. Our first residents moved in in 2000. And that was the first TND in Pasco County. And in my opinion, it was the last TND in Pasco County. Because the county loved it so much that they... Kevin K (24:00.38) You Frank Starkey (24:04.721) passed the TND standards ordinance, which it would never comply with and that no other developers ever wanted to do. And so nobody really has. They've kind of just, it's been compromised with, right? That's a whole other story. Kevin K (24:20.14) Yeah. Well, that sounds, I mean, we may need to get into that at some point, but, so you started this in 2000 and really in earnest 2001 or so. And obviously there was a little, little bump in the economy right then, but I guess kind of more of a bump compared to what came later. So talk about like those first, maybe that first decade then, like what all did you build and how much of this were you actively involved in the design of? Frank Starkey (24:24.529) Okay. Frank Starkey (24:39.377) Yeah. Frank Starkey (24:49.425) It's fascinating looking back on it how compressed that time frame was because we sold we we developed the first of four neighborhoods In the first neighborhood we did in As I said 99 2000 and then we built the second neighborhood in 2002 2003 we sold the third and fourth neighborhoods in 2004 which You know, six years later, we look like geniuses. If we would have been, if we'd been real geniuses, we would have waited until 2006 to sell them. But we got out before the crash, obviously. So we did well there. We were, I was, you know, Trey and I, because we had a view of building a career in real estate development, we thought we should do everything. We should touch every aspect of the process ourselves at least once. So we knew how everything worked. But then we never scaled up our operation big enough to hire people to fill in those specialties for us. So we really both kind of ended up doing a whole lot of the work ourselves. So our master, our designer was Jeffrey Farrell, who did the the overall plan for Longleaf. And he wrote the design code, but we collaborated on all that very closely, because I knew enough about what urbanism was and architecture. And so I administered that design code with our builders. He detailed out the first neighborhood. He and I detailed out the second neighborhood. collaboratively or sort of a 50 -50. And you know what I mean by detailed out, just, you know, you take a schematic plan and then you have to put it into CAD and get it, get to real dimensions and deal with wetland lines and drainage and all that stuff. You get, s**t gets real about, you know, curbs and things like that. So that kind of, those details. And the third neighborhood I detailed out, but we sold it, but the developer who bought it built it out according to what I had done. So I was... Frank Starkey (27:15.281) very involved with the planning side of it. And of course I had been involved with the entitlements and then I administered the design code with all of our builders. So I was dealing with there and we had, we didn't have sophisticated builders. We didn't have custom, we weren't a custom home builder project. We were small local production builders. So these were builders who built 300 houses a year. We weren't dealing with. David weekly, you know, a national home builder who was doing nice stuff. Nor were we dealing with the 12, you know, you know, a year custom builders. So we didn't have much sophistication on the design side coming from our builders. So I did a lot of hand holding on the design of that. I always tell if you're a architect who's going to be your. Kevin K (27:46.716) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (28:13.169) is going to develop a T and D. I will tell you under no circumstances do what I did. Always hire somebody else to be the bad guy because as the developer you just can't look the home builder in the eye and say let this customer go. And so even though they're asking you to do something you shouldn't. So you need somebody who can be your heavy for that and it's not going to be you as the developer. But anyway, so I did that and And then I designed some of the common buildings and then had them. I wasn't licensed yet. And so I had those CDs done by somebody with a stamp. So I always said that I, you know, between the larger planning of the ranch and the strategy there, and I also got involved in community, you know, regional and county wide planning efforts and committees and things like that and planning council. So I kind of worked at the scale from the region to the doorknob. Which, you know, is fabulous as an architect because I've found all of those levels, I still do, I find all of those levels of design and planning fascinating. Kevin K (29:17.084) hehe Kevin K (29:30.78) So let's talk about the mechanics of being a land developer for a minute and how you did it. So you obviously own the land, and then you came up with the master plan. So then how many steps did you take? You took on the burden of entitling probably the whole project in phase by phase. And then were you also financing and building infrastructure as well, and then basically selling off finished land? Frank Starkey (29:36.433) Mm -hmm. Kevin K (29:59.26) finished parcels or finished lots to other developers or builders. Frank Starkey (30:04.177) Yeah, what we, so dad on the land free and clear, he contracted the land to us under a purchase and sale agreement whereby we would pay a release price when we sold a lot. So, you know, it's favorable inside family deal. We paid him a fair price, but it was a very favorable structure that allowed it, and he subordinated it to. to lending for, we had to borrow, we don't have cash as a family, we didn't, none of us have cashflow from, you know, we don't have some other operating company that spits off cashflow. So we had asset value, but no cashflow. So we had to borrow money to pay for infrastructure, I mean, for planning and entitlement costs and engineering. And so that was our first loan. And then we had, We set up a community development district, which is a special purpose taxing district that a lot of states have different versions of them in Florida. It's called a CDD. It's basically like a quasi -municipality that a developer can establish with permission from the county and state government to establish a district, which is then able to sell tax -free government -style bonds to finance infrastructure. So it's an expensive entity to create and then to maintain. But if you're financing a big enough chunk, which in those days was like $10 million, it became efficient to have the care and feeding of the district in order to get the cheaper money. So you could get cheaper bond money for financing infrastructure. You could not finance marketing or... specific lot specific things you could for example, you could finance drainage, but you couldn't finance still so some of the Terminology was a little bit You kind of had to do some creative workarounds, but basically our so but we it also meant you had to still have a source of capital for those things that the district would not finance so we had an outside Frank Starkey (32:28.497) Loan structure in addition to the CDD financing and that was how we financed the construction of the development and then sold the lots to individual home builders We had three builders under contract in our first phase and each of them was committed to a certain number of lots and they had enough capital access on their own to finance their the construction of their houses a lot of them would use their buyers financing and use do construction permanent loans to finance the vertical construction of the houses. But the builders had the ability to take down the lots. So that was the deal. I don't know if that structure is still done very much or if there were many builders in that scale that still do that in Florida or in this area. It seems like most of those builders got just crushed. in a great recession and never came back. I'm not really aware of any builders that are in that scale, in that size range anymore. I mean, if there are, there's maybe a dozen where there used to be 100. Kevin K (33:40.86) Yeah, so they either got smaller or a lot bigger basically. Frank Starkey (33:45.681) No, they mostly just flat got killed and just went out of business. And they may have resurrected themselves. Yeah, they may have resurrected a smaller or gone to work for somebody else or retired because a lot of them were older. Of the builders that we had, yeah, I think they probably did get smaller in fairness, but they were gone. And we were out of, as I said earlier, we were long out of long leaps. And the... Kevin K (33:47.836) Yeah. Frank Starkey (34:13.969) Crosland was the developer that bought the third and fourth neighborhoods and they didn't they brought in all new builders. So they brought in David weekly and inland, which was a larger regional builder. And then Morrison, I think one of the other large, larger builders who did rear loaded T and D project product. Kevin K (34:38.108) So how much heartburn was that for you and your family to go from this position where you're like asset rich but cash poor to and then all of a sudden you're taking on pretty large debt to do this development piece? I mean, what was that like? Frank Starkey (34:54.801) Well, you know, you just you don't know what you don't know when you're young and ambitious. So it was it was there. I did. There were some real Rolade's cheering moments. I think, as I recall, the most stressful times for us were before we started construction. And it was it was frankly, it was harder on Trey because he was he was starting a family at that time. So he had. He had literally more mouths to feed than I did. I was still single and so, and I didn't have the stresses on me that he did. And once we got under development, we weren't so much, you know, the stress level shifted to different, you know, kind of a different complexion. And, you know, fortunately when the recession hit, We were done with long, we didn't have, you know, we weren't sitting with longleaf hanging on us. So that was good. but we were in the midst of entitlements for the Starkey Ranch project, which was the remainder of the land that the family still had that had not been sold to the state. And we were taking that, there was about 2 ,500 acres. We were taking that through entitlements starting in 90, in 2005. And I would say that we got our, our entitlements. not our zoning, but we got our entitlements package approved, in essence, the day before the recession hit. So, so we had borrowed again, borrowed a lot of money to relatively a lot more money to pay for that. And that also involved the whole family, because that was the rest of the ranch that that the part that long leaf is on dad had owned individually, free and clear. The remainder of it. had been in granddad's estate and that went down to children and grandchildren. And so there were seven different owners of that. And we had spent some time in the early 2000s putting that together into a partnership, into one joint venture where everybody owned a pro rata share of the whole, but we had other shareholders to answer to. And so that was a whole other level of stress. Frank Starkey (37:16.913) due to the recession because our bank went, you know, did what all banks do and they called the loan even though we hadn't gone, we hadn't defaulted. We would have defaulted if they'd waited six months, but they blanked first and they sued us and we spanked them in essence, but we, at the end of the day, but it was two years of grinding through a lawsuit that was hideous and that was really the most unpleasant. Kevin K (37:29.82) Hahaha! Frank Starkey (37:46.257) level of stress, not because we were going to lose our houses, but because we were, it was just was acrimonious and not what we wanted to be doing. Plus you had the background of the whole world having ground to a halt. So fighting that out through the dark days of the recession was, that was pretty lousy way to spend a couple of years. Kevin K (38:12.284) Yeah, so then how did you all come out of that situation then? Frank Starkey (38:17.009) We ended in a settlement. The settlement, the worst part of the settlement to me was that we had to, long story, but some of the, we had retained ownership of downtown Longleaf with the commercial core, mixed use core of Longleaf. And that wasn't completed development yet. And because we had that collateralized on another loan with the same bank, we ended up having to cut that off as part of the settlement. So. we, you know, we had to, we amputated a finger, not a hand, but still it was, it was, you know, it was our pointer finger. So that was, that was hard, but, but we lived to fight another day, which again, you know, fortunately it's better to be lucky than good, right? We were, that makes us look like, you know, we did pretty well coming out of the recession. So after the recession and after getting that settled out, and there was a couple of other small pieces of land that we had, Kevin K (38:52.124) hehe Frank Starkey (39:15.121) collateralized to the bank that we handed over, but basically got them to walk away from pursuing us further. We got that worked out and then we had to then figure out how to sell the land. Our joint venture partner, which was to have been Crosland on developing the ranch, they had gone to pieces during the recession, so they weren't there anymore. And the only buyers at those coming out of that were big hedge funds and equity funds. And they were only, their only buyers were national home builders and the national home builders, even the ones like Pulte who had tiptoed into traditional neighborhood development product before the recession. They were like, nope, nope, nope, backing up, never doing that again. They're. Kevin K (40:10.46) Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (40:12.593) So everything that we had about TND and our entitlements, they're like, get that s**t out of there. TND is a four letter word. We will not do that. So we kind of de -entitled a lot of our entitlements and cut it back to just a rudimentary neighborhood structure and interconnected streets and some mix of uses and negotiated to sell it to one of these hedge funds or investment funds. who developed it with a merchant developer and sold it to national home builders. And they pretty quickly undid what was left of our neighborhood structure and developed it in a pretty conventional fashion. They did a really nice job on it and it soldered a premium to everything around it. They did a really great job with their common area landscaping, but they gutted the town center. They didn't even do a good strip center in lieu of it. They just did a freestanding public and a bunch of out parcel pieces. They squandered any opportunity to create a real there out of the commercial areas. They did beautiful parks and trails and amenities centers, but they just didn't get doing a commercial town center. Kevin K (41:36.444) What years was that when they developed that piece? Frank Starkey (41:40.337) We sold it to them in 2012 and I guess they started construction in 13 or so and it was really selling out through 2020. They still got some commercial that they're building on. I don't know if they've got any residential that they're still, I mean, it's kind of, its peak was in the 17, 18, 19 range and it was one of the top projects in the country and certainly in the Bay Area. and got a lot of awards. And yeah, so I don't, I can't complain too much about it because it sounds like sour grapes, but basically they didn't, I always just tell people I'll take neither blame nor credit for what they did because it's just not at all what we, there's very little of it that is what we laid out. So because that, so we, having sold that in 2012, that left me and Trey to go do what we wanted to do. All of the, you know, the rest of the family for that matter. And, Trey was ready to hang it up on development for a while. So he kept a piece out of the blue out of the ranch and settlements and started the blueberry farm. And I went and decided to do in town, small scale development. Ultimately ended up in Newport, Ritchie back in my own hometown. And then and that's that's what I've been doing since basically since 2015. Kevin K (43:06.844) Yeah. So I'm curious about a couple of things. So with the completion of the sale of all that and the development of both Longleaf and Starkey Ranch, I guess I'm curious how your family felt about the results of all those. Were people happy, not happy with the results? Was there... I'm just kind of curious about that dynamic because it's an interesting thing with a family property. And then... I guess secondly, with you being somebody who carried more a certain set of ideals for development, what did you take away from that whole process, especially with Starkey Ranch and anything, any useful lessons for the future for others relative to an experience like that? Frank Starkey (43:38.321) Mm -hmm. Frank Starkey (43:56.209) Couple of thoughts. As far as the whole family goes, we were, well, our cousins don't live here and they were less engaged in it intellectually and just personally. The four of us kids had grown up here and this was our backyard. They had grown up in St. Pete and one of them lived in North Georgia. And so it was, they just weren't as... emotionally invested in it. Not to say they didn't care, but it just didn't, it wasn't their backyard that had been developed. And you know, and we all are proud that three quarters of the ranch of the 16 ,000 acres, over 13, almost 13 ,000 of it is in conservation land that will always be the way it was when we were kids. Except there are no fences, which is very disorienting, but anyway. It's still, you know, that's the way granddad saw it when he was young and it will always be that way. So that's, we're all excited about that. And we pay attention to that more than we do to what happened on development. I think even long leave the, what, you know, the, the people in the surrounding area think we're sellouts and, people who have lived here. for five years or 10 years or 15 years are still just shocked and dismayed by the rapid pace of development. Well, it was a rapid pace of development, but we've been seeing it coming for 130 years now as a family. And I mean, it's why we put land into conservation going back to the early 70s when granddad started selling that. What people can see is the part along State Road 54, which is the visible stuff. which 10 years ago was a lot of pastors with long views and pleasant looking cattle who were money losing proposition as a agricultural business. But people don't see that. They just thought, it's a pretty pasture land. And how can you turn that into houses? It's so, you greedy b******s. So yeah, we get a lot of flak still to this day. I mean, and I've got a. Kevin K (46:12.092) Yeah. Frank Starkey (46:17.425) Trey's wife is a county commissioner and she gets all kinds of grief for being corrupt because people see our names on everything and they're like, well, they must be corrupt. No, you've never met any less corrupt people. And so there's kind of public blowback to it. I've said what I've said, what I just told you about how the development of the ranch did not comport with what we envisioned for it. And I don't, I don't shy away from saying that. I don't go around banging a drum about it. cause what's, what's the point of that? And a lot of people might think I just sound like sour grapes, but it, you know, it's, we, I think we all had our ugly cry about the ranch at some point. I mean, I remember when we were, we, the first closings of the ranch were in 2012 and it was a phased state down, but you know, they, they take a chunk at a time. So we stayed in our office, which was the house that we had grown up in at the ranch headquarters, right where the cattle pens and the horse barn, the truck barn and the shop and all of the ranch operations were. And the day that, eventually we had to move everything out and all that, almost all of that got torn, all of it got torn down. I remember having, I went out and stood by a tree and cried my face off for a while. Kevin K (47:46.044) Yeah. Frank Starkey (47:46.673) You know, it still chokes me up to think about it. And we all did that. I mean, but it wasn't an overnight thing to us. Whereas if you lived in a subdivision in the area that, by the way, had been a cattle ranch 20 years ago, you didn't, you know, you're not building, you're not living in a land that was settled by the other colonists. It seemed shockingly fast, just like overnight. my God, all of a sudden they're, they're. They're scraping the dirt the grass off of that and you know three weeks later. There's houses going up It's just shocking and and really disorienting we'd said we had seen it coming literally our whole lives We always knew that was going to be the case. So it was there was going to be something there our Feelings about the what what what it was compared to what we would like it to have been or another You know, that's what we have to wrestle with but the fact that it's developed We always saw that coming and people don't really understand that until because you just, you know, because it just it's perceived so differently. If you just drive by and see it developed one day when it wasn't, then if you grow up with an aerial photograph on the wall of dad's office and you know, we just know that that's not always going to be that way. Kevin K (49:05.82) Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk for a minute about what you're doing now then with the stuff in Newport Ritchie and the smaller scale infill stuff. What was like the first one, after shifting gears and doing that, what was like the first project you took on on your own? Frank Starkey (49:25.561) Much more much more fun topic. Thank you for shifting gears. I should have let you do that sooner Kevin K (49:30.204) Yeah. Frank Starkey (49:33.617) The, so Newport Richey is a pre -war town that was laid out in 1911 by Wayne Stiles, who I'm starting to learn more about was a pretty cool town, kind of B -list town planner who worked with people like John Nolan and the Olmsted brothers and was contemporary to them. Got a very competent little city plan for a small town and it has building stock in the downtown. the main street and Grand Boulevard downtown that dates to the 1920s and to the 1950s and 60s, kind of about half and half. And so it always had these good urban bones, some decent building stock, nothing great. It was never a wealthy town, so it doesn't have big grand Victorian houses down at Boulevard or anything, but it's got some good characteristics. But it had economically just cratered, just for years and really decades of disinvestment. moving out to the suburbs. It wasn't white flight in the traditional sense, but it was economically, it was the same just reallocation of wealth from the historic city into the suburbs and leaving the city behind. So in 2015, there was a, so downtown Newport, which he has a little lake, a about a five acre really lovely little. city park, a riverfront, and the central business district is right next to it. And then there's a pink Mediterranean revival hotel building from 1926 in that park. It kind of ties it all together. It's all the same ingredients that downtown St. Petersburg has, just in miniature and in bad shape. And St. Petersburg, believe it or not, which is now the best city in Florida, was really down in heels for most of my childhood. The Vanoi Hotel, which is their big pink hotel, was a hulking, you know, it looked like something out of Detroit when I was a kid, broken out windows and chain link fence around it and weeds and looked like a haunted hotel. So the Hacienda was kind of in that shape almost. And Downtown was doing, was, you know, just kind of sitting there with some honky tonk bars and a lot of, you know, just kind of moribund. Frank Starkey (51:54.705) commercial space. The city had bought out the First Baptist Church, which overlooked that lake right downtown when the church decamped out to the suburbs like all the other capitals in town. Even God's capital moved out to the suburbs. And the city bought it and tore down the church buildings and put a for sale sign on it, put it out for RFP a couple times, got crickets in response. Because no self -respecting developer would look at downtown New Port Richey as a place to develop. And I looked at it and as Robert Davis and Andres 20 will point out, we developers and architects and urbanists, we live in the future. You know, our brains are in what can be, not what is here now. And you've heard Andres say that the present is a distortion field. So I wasn't bothered by the fact that the neighborhoods around it weren't the greatest neighborhoods. They weren't terrible. Kevin K (52:39.8) Yeah. Yeah. Frank Starkey (52:48.177) And I looked at it and said, well, this is a pretty good gas piece of property. You got through overlooking this nice lake. There's a park. There's a downtown right there. We can work with this. So I asked the city to put it out for an RFQ, which they did. And Eric Brown, your buddy and mine, and one of your former guests on the podcast recently, was the architect for the buildings. And Mike Watkins, whom you also know, was the planner. I had them come in and do a Charette to develop a design for an apartment project on that former church property. And we negotiated a deal with the city to buy that property and we were off and running. So that was the first project. Just announcing that and showing, you know, as people were, some people were rightly skeptical that it would just end up being another low income housing thing because. This is Newport Richey. It's an economic shithole. Why would anybody put anything nice here? And surely, surely, even if you think it's going to be luxury, or if you're just saying it, it's obviously just going to, there's no way it can end up being anything but low income housing. And, but a lot of other people were excited to see that somebody was putting some investment in town. And it just kind of started to change people's thinking. Then we took on a commercial building downtown that when I was a kid had been a, IGA grocery store where we did our grocery shopping and it had, fallen into, you know, another moribund state as an antique mall that just needed to be fixed up and, and refreshing them live and up or something new. So we bought that and, did a severe gut job on it. divided it up into five tenant spaces, brought in a natural grocery store that was in town, but in a much terrible location. And a new microbrewery, the first microbrewery in town, and a taco place, and a kayak paddleboard outfitter, and a CrossFit gym. Kind of a dream lineup of revitalizing. Yeah. The kayak place didn't last very long. Kevin K (55:04.636) It's like the perfect mix. Frank Starkey (55:11.665) They were pretty much pretty ahead of the market and also just work. It wasn't their core business. They just didn't really know how to do it right. And then the taco place ended up getting replaced. The CrossFit gym outgrew the box and went to a much bigger location. And then we replaced them with an axe throwing business, which is killing it. So no joke, no pun intended. And then the microbrewery is still there. natural food store is still there. And then in the paddle boarding space, we now have a makers, a craft market that is multiple vendors that are, you know, like cottage industry makers selling under one roof. And we have a new bar and hamburger place and the former chocolate place. And they're also doing really well. And so between those two projects, it really, and then, you know, it's other, businesses started opening, new businesses opened downtown that just kind of had a new approach. They weren't honky tonks, they weren't just kind of appealing to a kind of a has -been demographic. And I just started changing the attitude. And the most remarkable occurrence was at one point, and this was around 2018, I just noticed that the online chatter in the general discussion among locals about Newport Richey kind of flipped from overwhelmingly negative people just running down the town, just saying this place is terrible. You know, get out while you can. There's nothing but crack heads and, and prostitutes and you know, it's just terrible. And to, Hey, this place is pretty cool. It's getting better. There's, it's got a lot of potential. And the naysayers started getting shattered down by the people who were more optimistic and positive about the town. And it just kind of hit that Malcolm Gladwell tipping point pretty quickly. And the attitude of the town and the self -image of people in town just has been significantly different ever since then. And then that's, of course, paid dividends and more investment coming to downtown. Now you can't find a place to rent for retail downtown. Frank Starkey (57:38.641) We actually have the problem now that there's too much food and beverage and the market isn't growing enough because we've got to bring in customers from outside of the immediate area because it's just not densely populated enough town yet. But that's so that's kind of where things started in New Port Richey. Kevin K (57:56.604) That's really, that's a great story. It's kind of, it's so indicative of also like what Marty Anderson has talked about. Let's sort of like finding your farm and a place that you care about and working there and making it better. And that's really cool. When it came to all this, were you self -financing? Were you working with investors? How was that process? Frank Starkey (58:13.169) Yeah. Frank Starkey (58:22.321) On the central, which is our apartment and on the 5800 main, which is the project that had been the IGA store, I have a financial partner on that. Who's another local who had made done well for himself in banking and lived away and moved back and was wanting to invest, but also to do some invest locally in a way that helps, you know, give something back to his own town. And that was my attitude as well. So our, our. Capital has been him and me on those two projects. And then I've got two other buildings that, one other building that I have a co -owner on and then another building I own solely by myself. So I've got a total of four projects. And all of the projects that I have are within one, two, three blocks, four blocks of each other. I was, you know, you mentioned the farm. I was very intentional about farm. I said, okay, my farm is New Port Richey. My farm yard is downtown and my barn is our office, which was right in the middle of all that. And the so that's, you know, and then now Mike and I live three blocks from all of that stuff. So we have we our new townhouse is three blocks east of downtown. Since 2018, we lived in a house that was four blocks south of downtown. So all of it was walkable. And even when downtown had just a couple of restaurants that were mostly just diners, one place that was pretty decent for lunch and salads and things, and a couple of pretty mediocre to crappy bars. I have a lot of friends here now and my office is here. And I immediately realized this is the most luxurious lifestyle I have had since college because the ability to walk everywhere and just live your life on foot is luxurious. It's just delightful. And my best friend now lives well in our old house, lives a block away. And we got to be friends living in town here and living a block from each other. And we would just ride bikes. And there was a whole other crew of Kevin K (01:00:24.284) You Frank Starkey (01:00:49.041) the people we'd ride bikes up the river in the evenings and maybe stop for a beer or maybe not and just enjoy the town. He really showed me just kind of, I smacked myself in the forehead one day when he talked about how nice it is to ride up the river during the sunset. I was like, wow, you mean you can just enjoy living in these walkable places? Because I'd always spent so much time trying to build them that I didn't spend much time just... f*****g enjoyment. Kevin K (01:01:19.676) I know, I know. It's a crazy thing. It's like it shouldn't be like a rarity or anything like that. We wish it was available to everybody, but it's wild. That was the thing about living in Savannah and that was like the hard part about leaving Savannah was, I think for a lot of us who have our ideals about walkability and everything, you kind of go back and forth about, do I want to spend my time? Frank Starkey (01:01:30.257) Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:01:37.489) Yeah, I bet. Kevin K (01:01:48.38) you know, working real hard and trying to create this as much as, as I can and, and live in a certain place where I, I guess have the economic opportunity to do that. Or do you also maybe just say, yeah, at a certain point, screw it. I just want to live somewhere where I can be, you know, do the things that I talk about all the time. So. Frank Starkey (01:02:06.513) Yeah, exactly. And it is hard to live in a place that's already kicking butt and do the things to make a place kick butt. So. Kevin K (01:02:20.124) Yeah, and in so many of these places, the places that we admire, and if you didn't get in early, you can't afford it at a certain point anymore anyway. So it's kind of a crazy deal. So as an architect, then would the infill projects, I mean, I know you worked with Eric and Mike and some others, but do you do any sketching or work on any of these sort of, is it a collaborative deal or do you at this point just be like, well, Frank Starkey (01:02:28.369) Right. Kevin K (01:02:46.268) I'm going to be a good client and be kind of hands off and just help direct my architects. Frank Starkey (01:02:50.865) I try to, I'm trying very hard to just be a good client and direct my architects. I'll let you ask Eric on whether I'm a good client or not, but that's probably been the project where I have been the most, I've left the most to the architects to on the design side. On the, the one of the commercial building that I owned by myself was a, building that didn't have any windows, two stories right on one of our main streets on a corner. So two full facades with essentially no windows. And it needed new windows storefront and upstairs. So it basically just needed a whole facade because there was just a big windowless bunker. But it had existing structural columns or structural considerations for where I could put windows. And it ended up being a interesting, challenging facade composition project. Anyway, I designed that building. And also it was a double high space where the second floor was just a mezzanine. And we closed in the second floor to make it into a mixed use building. So that because it had always been a nightclub or restaurant and it was too big as being a story and a half to for that, for this market to support because the upstairs are just kind of. You know, just sucked. So I was like, this needs to just be a regular size restaurant on the ground floor and then offices above. So I did the architecture on that, including the build out for the restaurant. I had some help on that on the layout, but I did the design, interior design stuff on that. I wish I had, I love the facade design process. And that was a really fun project. And the result was, you know, it's, it's unusual because of the constraints that it had. So, but it's, I think it's a fun, it's a good result. but if I were doing more projects, I mean, I really feel like I don't do architecture every day. So I'm not, yeah, certainly I'm not going to do construction drawings because I don't have that, capability just cause I don't, I mean, I have the technical ability to do it. Frank Starkey (01:05:15.249) and I am now licensed, I could sign and seal it, but I don't want to. And I haven't signed and sealed anything yet. So my goal is to be more of a client than I am an architect. Kevin K (01:05:27.868) So in all this stuff and going back to even your initial work with Longleaf and others, you've obviously tried to create well -designed places and beautiful places. I know you said you had some thoughts kind of based on one of the other podcasts I had where we were going back and forth and talking about beauty in buildings and the value of that versus sort of utilitarian values as well. How have you tried to balance all that and really create? beauty and do you find it at conflict with also making real estate work? Frank Starkey (01:06:04.753) I don't find beauty in conflict with making real estate work at all. I think it's critical. I don't think that things have to be built expensively in order to be beautiful. And my comment to you in my email was about y 'all had had a discussion on this, your podcast before last. about and you had said you can't legislate beauty no code in the no amount of code in the world is going to result in beauty and I've always thought about that because I agree with you that codes by their nature don't result in beauty that that human love results in beauty I mean that's you know because that's a it's a it's a spiritual outcome not a I mean, it's an outcome of the spirit. I don't mean that metaphysical terms, just, but it's something that comes from a level of care that's not, that doesn't happen from just conformance. Kevin K (01:07:10.94) Yeah, it's a value you bring to a project basically. It's something you really care to do. Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:07:16.529) Yes, that said, the American Vignoli and other handbooks that were used by builders, not by architects, but by people who were just building buildings and designing them, designing and building buildings by hand in the 1800s and early 1900s. resulted in scads of what we consider beautiful buildings with a capital B because it codified, maybe not in a sense of regulation, but in a sense of aspiration and guidance. It codified a way to arrive at competence with beautiful principles underlying it. And I wonder, it's... It's a hypothesis. I've not proved it or even set out to prove it. But if you could require that people follow the American Vignole as an example, or something else like that, where the principles of proportion are codified and they're followable, then I think you probably would still have to have some coaching. But I think you would get a whole lot closer than you can in the, because it's more like a playbook than it is a rule book for producing a competent design. Competent in the classical sense. Kevin K (01:08:54.556) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin K (01:09:02.236) Yeah, I think that's fair. It's more like coaching people about people who care. If you want to do good things, here are simple rules and patterns to follow that are not going to get you the Parthenon necessarily, but they're going to get you certainly at a minimum like a B building, like a B or a B minus building if you follow these rules. And if you do them really well and execute the details well, you could end up with an A plus building. Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:09:34.641) Yeah. Yeah, and it's something that McKim, Mead, and White can follow that and come up with something spectacular. But the same underlying principles are in every garden variety inline building on a street. Because individual urban buildings and places that we love are individually not spectacular. It's the accumulation of be buildings that are singing in the same key that makes a good chorus. Not everything can be a soloist anyway. Kevin K (01:10:11.996) And certainly, a lot of the people who produced the buildings in that era that you described, late 19th, early 20th century, I mean, there were a whole lot of just illiterate immigrants to the United States, ones who were building all that. And they didn't need 200 pages of construction drawings to follow it, but they did have patterns and illustrations and guides that they could follow. Frank Starkey (01:10:25.041) Yeah. Kevin K (01:10:42.46) and just some kind of basic standards. Yeah. Frank Starkey (01:10:43.217) And also a general cultural agreement on what looks good and what doesn't. And that's what I think you can't recreate from start, I mean, from scratch, because it's got to, that culture builds up and accumulates over decades and generations of practice. Kevin K (01:11:09.148) No doubt. Have you seen with the buildings that you have done in Newport, Richey, has there been other people who've looked at what you've done and tried to essentially say, kind of continue to raise the bar with good looking buildings? Frank Starkey (01:11:24.209) Unfortunately, I can't say that has happened yet. There hasn't been that much new construction in New Port Richey. And I don't, I can't think of any off the top of my head that have been done since we built the central, for example, which is really the only new ground up build. There's another apartment project and apartments and mixed use downtown, but it was designed in 2006 and then it was stalled and it finished about the same time we did, but it has nothing. you know, didn't follow others at all. We did have a lot of people. And this is something I would recommend, which I did accidentally. I didn't put really good drawings of the buildings into the public before they were built. I made a real now here's a blunder. There's a my blunder was I allowed the elevations of the buildings. to be the first thing that got into the public view because they were required as part of the permitting process. And an elevation drawing of a building is the architectural equivalent of a mugshot. It's representative and it's accurate, but it's accurate, but it's not representative. So it doesn't show you what a person looks like. It shows you just facts about their face. And so it shows you facts about a building, but not what it's gonna look like. So people saw the elevations. of what Eric could design, which were intentionally very simple rectangular boxes with regular, very competent, beautiful classical facades, but they looked really flat, they looked really boxy, and they looked terrible. They couldn't be at elevation, there's no depth on it. So people were like, holy s**t, of course he's building, I mean, they look like barracks. And so people lost their minds. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So we quickly put together some 3D renderings. based on a quick sketchup model, we illustrated the hell out of them with landscaping and showed what a view down the street would look like. And it was a much better view. And that's really how you perceive the buildings. And so people were like, OK, well, if it looks like that, I guess I won't oppose it so much. But they were still rightfully skeptical. And so I s

This episode of the Amazing Cities and Towns Podcast sponsored by Bearing Advisors, Jim Hunt interviews Anna Lowder, Founder of Hempstead Community in Montgomery, AL ·         A candid conversation about the Hempstead Community in Montgomery, AL 7 Steps to an Amazing City: Attitude Motivation Attention to Detail Zing Inclusiveness Neighborhood Empowerment Green Awareness   Thanks for listening and look forward to having you join us for the next episode. Links Mentions During Show: ·         www.AmazingCities.org ·         www.AmazingCities.org/podcast to be a guest on the podcast   About Anna Lowder, Hempstead Community in Montgomery, AL    Anna Lowder & Harvi Sahota are Town Founders of Hampstead, and lead the town planning, design, construction, marketing, and placemaking of the community. With over 15 years of New Urbanist development experience, Hampstead is the culmination of their effort in "Building Community Through Design." They are the principals of Mercer Home, Hampstead's largest new home builder, and Matter Design Co., a multi-disciplinary design firm which creates the majority of home plans in Hampstead. About Your Host, Jim Hunt: Welcome to the “Building Amazing Cities and Towns Podcast” … The podcast for Mayors, Council Members, Managers, Staff and anyone who is interested in building an Amazing City.   Your host is Jim Hunt, the author of “Bottom Line Green, How American Cities are Saving the Planet and Money Too” and his latest book, “The Amazing City - 7 Steps to Creating an Amazing City”   Jim is also the former President of the National League of Cities, 27 year Mayor, Council Member and 2006 Municipal Leader of the Year by American City and County Magazine.   Today, Jim speaks to 1000's of local government officials each year in the US and abroad.   Jim also consults with businesses that are bringing technology and innovation to local government.   Amazing City Resources:   Buy Jim's Popular Books: ·         The Amazing City: 7 Steps to Creating an Amazing City:   https://www.amazingcities.org/product-page/the-amazing-city-7-steps-to-creating-an-amazing-city   ·         Bottom Line Green: How America's Cities and Saving the Planet (And Money Too)  https://www.amazingcities.org/product-page/bottom-line-green-how-america-s-cities-are-saving-the-planet-and-money-too   FREE White Paper: ·         “10 Steps to Revitalize Your Downtown”  www.AmazingCities.org/10-Steps   Hire Jim to Speak at Your Next Event: ·         Tell us about your event and see if dates are available at www.AmazingCities.org/Speaking   Hire Jim to Consult with Your City or Town: ·         Discover more details at https://www.amazingcities.org/consulting   Discuss Your Business Opportunity/Product to Help Amazing Cities: ·         Complete the form at https://www.amazingcities.org/business-development   A Special Thanks to Bearing Advisors for the support of this podcast:  www.BearingAdvisors.Net      

While Charles Marohn began his career as an engineer, he soon realized that the problems plaguing American urban design - particularly in the suburbs - ran deep. So he quit his engineering job and began writing about how to redesign cities for livability and people rather than cars. His work - including books Strong Towns and Confessions of a Recovering Engineer - became very influential in the New Urbanist movement and the past decade of innovation in urban design and real estate development.In this episode, Marohn joins Brad on the final episode of Season One of the Thesis Driven Leader Series to discuss the future of cities. We'll touch on the design and policy interventions that would save lives and improve our cities' finances as well as how real estate developers should approach designing better places. We'll also discuss the role that technology can - and cannot - play in making cities better.Marohn brings a perspective and insights that will be relevant for anyone looking to innovate in the built world.

Join us in this special crossover episode as Lisa Marie Burwell, Editor-in-Chief of VIE Magazine and host of the VIE Speaks: Conversations with Heart and Soul podcast, sits down with Jordan Staggs, Editor at VIE Magazine and host of the VIE Book Club podcast. This episode invites listeners to take an exclusive look inside VIE's vibrant history and rejoice in key moments that built the brand and created 16 years of legacy. Learn about the origins of VIE's publishing days through its parent company, The Idea Boutique®, from creating Sister Schubert's cookbook to a poetry collection by William E. Wade, and the process of creating The Seaside Style® coffee-table book. The Seaside Style® book spotlights Daryl Rose Davis's perspective and creativity as she and her husband, Robert Davis, pioneered the New Urbanist town of Seaside, Florida, and intentionally curated each store there. Then, dive into VIE's luxury coffee-table books, HOME and COOK, which celebrate the local interior design, architecture, and culinary creatives in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida, (also known as 30A) and its surrounding areas. Jordan shares her experience speaking with diverse authors on the first season of the VIE Book Club podcast and her recent experience interviewing songwriter Patrick Davis and attending Songwriters in Paradise in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico. Each of these projects have been penned or podcasted with the intention of service and capturing the unique essence of each person and brand VIE works with. It all goes back to storytelling with heart and soul. LET'S CONNECT: Instagram: @viespeaks // @viebookclub // @viemagazine YouTube: (@VIEtelevision | WATCH VIE Speaks) Website: viemagazine.com PURCHASE COOK - COCKTAILS. CUISINE. CULTURE by VIE PURCHASE HOME - INSPIRATIONS FOR HOME AND LIFE by VIE For sponsorship inquiries, please contact kelly@viemagazine.com and hailey@viemagazine.com.

In PX114, our interview guest is Anna Lowder, a co-founder and director of Hampstead, a New Urbanist community in Montgomery, Alabama, inspired by her experiences while living in London before returning to Montgomery. Established in 2008, the 416-acre master-planned residential and mixed-use development features homes, townhomes, condos, apartments, restaurants, shops, workspaces and a school, farm, and a lake. Anna helped Hampstead and Montgomery become the first neighborhood and largest city to adopt the SmartCode, an innovative zoning code that encourages diverse, mixed-use community for all ages and stages of life. She is a member of the National Town Builders Association and the Congress for the New Urbanism.  Interview topics include, New Urbanism, Multigenerational Design, Designing for Sustainable Communities, SmartCode Adoption and Breaking Barriers with New Urbanism. In podcast extra / culture corner, Anna recommends ‘The Bear' TV series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bear_(TV_series) Jess recommends: ‘Wholesome by Sarah', recipes and a new cookbook coming https://www.wholesomebysarah.com.au and Pete recommends local history books including ‘The Enigma of Snake Island' by Rob Ganly https://images.app.goo.gl/HnmAvU3VcHZPgFEGA Audio production by Jack Bavage. Podcast released 21 March 2024.

In PX114, our interview guest is Anna Lowder, a co-founder and director of Hampstead, a New Urbanist community in Montgomery, Alabama, inspired by her experiences while living in London before returning to Montgomery. Established in 2008, the 416-acre master-planned residential and mixed-use development features homes, townhomes, condos, apartments, restaurants, shops, workspaces and a school, farm, and a lake. Anna helped Hampstead and Montgomery become the first neighborhood and largest city to adopt the SmartCode, an innovative zoning code that encourages diverse, mixed-use community for all ages and stages of life. She is a member of the National Town Builders Association and the Congress for the New Urbanism. Interview topics include, New Urbanism, Multigenerational Design, Designing for Sustainable Communities, SmartCode Adoption and Breaking Barriers with New Urbanism. In podcast extra / culture corner, Anna recommends ‘The Bear' TV series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bear_(TV_series) Jess recommends: ‘Wholesome by Sarah', recipes and a new cookbook coming https://www.wholesomebysarah.com.au and Pete recommends local history books including ‘The Enigma of Snake Island' by Rob Ganly https://images.app.goo.gl/HnmAvU3VcHZPgFEGA PlanningxChange is proud to be a member of the Urban Broadcast Collective. Audio production by Jack Bavage. Podcast released 21 March 2024.

166. New Urbanism /Hampstead Montgomery GA/ Anna Lowder In PX114, our interview guest is Anna Lowder, a co-founder and director of Hampstead, a New Urbanist community in Montgomery, Alabama, inspired by her experiences while living in London before returning to Montgomery. Established in 2008, the 416-acre master-planned residential and mixed-use development features homes, townhomes, condos, apartments, restaurants, shops, workspaces and a school, farm, and a lake. Anna helped Hampstead and Montgomery become the first neighborhood and largest city to adopt the SmartCode, an innovative zoning code that encourages diverse, mixed-use community for all ages and stages of life. She is a member of the National Town Builders Association and the Congress for the New Urbanism. Interview topics include, New Urbanism, Multigenerational Design, Designing for Sustainable Communities, SmartCode Adoption and Breaking Barriers with New Urbanism. In podcast extra / culture corner, Anna recommends ‘The Bear' TV series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bear_(TV_series) Jess recommends: ‘Wholesome by Sarah', recipes and a new cookbook coming https://www.wholesomebysarah.com.au and Pete recommends local history books including ‘The Enigma of Snake Island' by Rob Ganly https://images.app.goo.gl/HnmAvU3VcHZPgFEGA Audio production by Jack Bavage. Podcast released 21 March 2024.

Mallory Baches — President of the Congress for the New Urbanism (or, CNU), and urban designer — is in good traffic to hash out the details of the New Urbanism movement, and the overall progression of urban design, urban planning, and urban development in the U.S. We discuss: 00:00 On Mallory, and the Congress for the New Urbanism (CNU). 04:10 How have urbanism and urban development evolved in the U.S.? 04:43 What is a “congress” for urbanism? 06:06 A background on new urbanism. 08:36 The history and criticism of the New Urbanist movement, and of urban planning movements as a whole. 15:53 On transit-oriented development, and density, in the U.S. 21:06 Southern urbanism: walkable cities in the Sun Belt and American south. 29:12 Selecting cities for an urban planning and design conference. 34:15 A commute into Chicago. A couple of quotes: “Sprawl is continuing. And so 30 years later, [CNU's] mission to reverse that trend is still as important as ever.” “We call ourselves a Congress and we talk about intentionally being based on the idea of debate, exploration, and critique where necessary. That sort of approach to understanding cities is fundamentally evolutionary in nature. “The idea of connecting transit with new development — transit-oriented development, transit-accessible development — there are a lot of acronyms, a lot of ways to describe the idea of designing your mass transportation systems and your higher intensity development to happen in conjunction with each other.” For context: On New Urbanism. On CNU (the organization). On CNU 32 in Cincinnati, Ohio (the annual conference). Connecting with Mallory: On LinkedIn. On Twitter. Connecting with me, Brad: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠On Instagram.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠On TikTok⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠On LinkedIn⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠⁠

Eric Brown spends most of his time designing beautiful buildings and doing urban plans for his firm, Brown Design Studio. But, when you get him away from the desk, you find someone with a good sense of history, and an understanding of how to get things done. We partnered up together in Savannah to help create the Savannah Urbanism Series (a guest lecture series), host CNU 26, and create the Savannah 2033 Plan for greater downtown.With all of Eric's many accomplishments, he's a good person to talk with when we try to understand the bigger landscape of change and cities. So, we cover a lot of ground including the role of the business community in planning historically, what all is going on in Savnanah, and what he's seeing with new, greenfield development. He talks a bit about his project Selah, in Norman OK, as one example.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Transcript:Kevin K (00:01.346)Welcome back to the messy city podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg Got my good buddy Eric Brown with me today. Eric is architect urban designer man about town Savanian What what else should I have on your resume here?Eric (00:22.818)Probably my best accomplishment, which is being a father.Kevin K (00:25.718)There you go, there you go. All right, well, I'm in that with you now as well, although I was a little later at the party than you, but it's a pretty awesome responsibility and I know Nick's a great kid, so congratulations on that.Eric (00:41.494)You haven't seen him in a while. He's six foot one now.Kevin K (00:45.142)Jesus, it's taller than me? That's not possible.Eric (00:47.982)He's a, he's still grown too. He's a big boy. He's going to be a big boy. And, uh, you also haven't seen ace the wonder dog.Kevin K (00:57.418)Yeah, yeah, I know. It's been a couple of years since I've been back. Although watch out rumor is we're gonna make a trip back this year, so I'll let you know. So I wanted to, there's a lot of things Eric and I talk about and there's any number of directions we can go with this hour today, but I do wanna hit a couple of things specific to like what stuff that you work on and some things that we did years ago.Um, Eric and I were kind of partners in crime in Savannah, um, really trying to, um, bring more discussion about new urbanism and, and better long-term planning, uh, to the city. And that may seem like a strange thing because Savannah is famous for its planning, uh, and its built environment. But like a lot of cities in the last several decades, um, it's really just been kind of the default.same stuff that you see everywhere, other than the historic district. So one of the things that Eric and I kind of put our heads together on was to get a group together and do an updated master plan of sorts for the greater downtown area of Savannah. We did this in 2018. We called it the Savannah 2033 plan. And...We called it 2033 because not just because it was like 15 years was a nice round number away, but really because 2033 is the 300th anniversary of the founding of Savannah. Savannah is actually older than the United States as a country. So it felt like a great benchmark for us to give. And I flew the coupe a few years ago, so I haven't been in touch in Savannah with every...as much of what's going on, but I wondered, Eric, if you could talk a little bit about that plan and effort and any legacies from that and what might be going on today, sort of good, bad, or indifferent, regards to thinking about planning in downtown Savannah.Eric (03:11.402)Um...That's a good question. And you know...I'm gonna kind of circle back to that answer in a second. But, you know, we also, you know, you and I also kind of had our little CNU group here, brought the Congress here in whatever year that was. But, you know, as part of that CNU group, we did a series of...Urban Speaker Series. You know, we had Mayor Riley, we had Deiru Tadani, we had Rick Hall. Um, we had, yeah, we had a, um, you know, the top talent and, you know, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few on there. And.Kevin K (04:01.738)Chuck Morrone, yeah, Joe Menard goes there, yeah.Eric (04:14.634)you know, when I'm really kind of proud of our efforts, you know, even after all these years.Eric (04:23.242)because people still talk about that. You know, they still talk about those. And, you know, if you were listening to you and I back in 2018 or 17 or whenever that was, we were doing those, 19. You know, our mission, what we told everybody our mission was is to raise the bar of discourse and education here on urban planning matters and.You know, I got to say buddy, congratulations, because it took a while to sink in, but we did it. You know.Kevin K (04:56.175)Well, things move a little more slowly in Savannah, right?Eric (04:58.938)Absolutely they move slow.Kevin K (05:01.586)Although, honestly, they move slowly everywhere. So, what are you gonna do?Eric (05:07.531)But I've seen the effects of some of those. And I think.You know, we've given people the vocabulary and in some cases, passion to go deal with some of these issues. Some of our elected officials, some of our staff members. And so I just wanted to kind of tell you that, you know, all those efforts that were pretty much thankless at the time are still somewhat thankless. But, you know, we did do it. We had an effect on that. So.I'm real proud of you and our efforts on there. So I wanted to throw that out there. There's some significant changes coming that I really can't mention. I don't think it's appropriate to mention right now. But when they do occur, you'll be shocked and you'll know exactly how much of an effect we had.Kevin K (05:54.046)That's great to hear.Eric (06:17.038)exciting to see if that does come to fruition. And everyone out there in podcast land, cause I've talked to other senior groups about doing this or those grassroots education efforts, they are thankless, just they're important though. It's really the most important thing I think you can do as a local group. So hammer away at that stuff, cause it does bear fruit.But back to your planning question, you know that master plan...Eric (06:57.246)was really good work. That our team.you know, just did some really amazing work in a very short time for what we were doing.Kevin K (07:08.89)on a shoestring too. I mean, we did that on a ridiculous budget.Eric (07:10.51)Oof.Yeah, yeah, we did. Um, but.Kevin K (07:17.078)I mean you and almost – you and basically everybody else donated huge amounts of time or else it never would have gotten done.Eric (07:24.47)Well, you know, again, I think it's kind of the same thing. You know, we did get, you know, city council to adopt that guide.You know, I don't know that they have ever gone back and looked at it since then. Um, but it has. Spurned off and affected a lot of things. You know, the tide to town has been a success here, which is, you know, kind of linking up, um, some bike trails with some of our canals Savannah's got a lot of canals, um, and waterways.and kind of tying all those together so that you can really get somewhere substantial on a bike that's in a nice interesting setting, you're not sharing the road with automobiles. So that's just, they just got more funding for their next phase. It's very, it's a huge success story and that's probably the biggest one that came out of that effort. You know, there'sThere's continuing work with the Civic Center, which is one of the focal points of that plan. And the work we put in there is a good kind of milestone, I think, to judge the future work by.Eric (09:00.246)And the Waters corridor has finished up and it looks really nice. I just went, I was over there the other day. And so, you know, those efforts kind of helped that area a little bit, which was part of the East side charrette as well from the Congress.Kevin K (09:21.13)Yeah. You know, one of the things we used to talk about, Eric, it kind of may help people to have some context to know that this was basically a planning effort that we put together that was outside City Hall. We worked kind of through the remnants of Savannah Development and Renewal Authority, but we also went out and raised money privately andand pieced it together. And that was something like, you and I used to talk about that all the time, how, I wonder if you could just expand on this, you know, that one of the frustrations we have is that in so many cities, the business community and people who ought to know better about development and, you know, things that would work well, at least financially in a city.the business community largely has kind of stepped away from being involved in planning and we used to just, that's something we kind of wrung our hands about all the time. Even in a great historic city like Savannah that was often the case, but clearly cities all over the country, you know, it's just been a sea change in how people think about that. And I wonder if you could kind of share some of your thoughts on that.Eric (10:43.033)Yeah, so...You know, I'm a big history buff, history fan, as it relates to planning, but just in general. And, you know, when you look at some of the great plans that have been done.Eric (11:05.366)plan for San Francisco, the plan for Chicago, heck, even the 1815 plan for Manhattan. You know, it wasn't the city of Chicago didn't do that plan. It was the business community that wrote Dan Burnham and Unlimited Check to go get it done, make us a world-class city.And San Francisco did the same thing.It's because the business community needed a competitive city to be competitive in an emerging national market, you know, and never in our history until probably, I would guess, posted.post-war or maybe probably during the depression that started where you had you started to rely on government agencies to do that.you know, because there was no planning profession prior to 19 something, 1912, maybe. Um, and so that's interesting. Um, again, how we used to do it. And, you know, not, I sound like an old man, get off my lawn kind of thing, but, um, you know, it worked and it, those were beautiful plans and they've stood the test of time. They've built magnificent world-class cities.Eric (12:31.282)Chicago is a top three, top five US city, however you want to rank it. San Francisco same. So, you know, you know, so where's our business community? What's the question you and I kind of asked ourselves over some beverages, I think one or two nights and you know, it's.It's different. It's different now. And I don't think we realized this at the time, but you know, let's say in 1893, you know, the business community in Chicago and you had some national, you know, obviously Sears was based, I think Sears was based out there at the time. And you know, you had some national companies, but you know, businesses were for the most part locally owned.Eric (13:30.042)So you had the department store that was locally owned. It wasn't a Macy's yet. It wasn't a Woolworths yet. There were locally owned businesses that did things, steel mills, building cars or mufflers or whatever it was. And all that's gone. Literally that whole class of independent businessmen.that are locally based and care about where they actually are and where they live and how their kids are going to view all this. Those guys are gone and they're replaced with global.corporate MBA dipshits that just care about stock price. And so they're running a global company out of somewhere. And it's real hard to get them to do anything other than for the PR work. And raising funds for CNU, I think we've got a taste of that. But what was interesting is Delta's based out ofAtlanta Chick-fil-A is based out of Atlanta. And so they were willing to fund some efforts in their home market they perceived it as. So we got lucky with a few of those. But Gulfstream here is one of our few major businesses in Savannah. And they do a ton in the community. They do. But they don't gives**t's about the planning work here. It's just not on their radar.Eric (15:18.166)You know, so I think that.that whole shift is something to be cognizant of. And you have to find kind of that civic leadership somewhere else. And by all means, if you have a local-based business, then lean on them. They're just not that prevalent like they used to be. Before we relied on the city.You know, here we have obviously tourism groups that are interested in the planning. So, you know, they provide some of that leadership, right or wrong. And...Eric (16:07.678)I think you have to, you know, as a...You know, as like what we were doing is basically, you know, guerrilla warfare, you know, I always viewed it as, you know, working outside the system as the system isn't getting it done. You know, we were trying to model our efforts on, you know, what some of the great planners before us, Daniel Burnham, and them were doing and engage that business community. And, you know, we found some success here.And so for people that might be trying that same thing, I would do some research into where some of the capital or trusts are in your city. Those are usually good sources for funding efforts to do stuff like this.Kevin K (17:04.594)Yeah, I was thinking about like, even here in Kansas City, we had a great City Beautiful Plan like a lot of American cities did, starting sort of 1880s and all the way through the 1910s. It's interesting that there's a couple of great books that talk about how the creation of the Parks and Boulevards plan here. There was a core group of local business people, including the newspaper publisher that basicallytown and lobbied for that thing to happen. They hired a famous landscape architect at the time, George Kessler, who was an Olmsted disciple. And they basically went around and lobbied to make sure it would happen. And over 100 years later, that's as big a part of what the city is known for as anything for people who come here and see it. And you can see the Parks and BoulevardKevin K (18:02.814)I mean, that's pretty common all over the place. I think you make a great point too about just like the local civic leadership in like, do you ever think about that like in your, compared to your native Ohio? So Eric grew up in Ohio and you know, Ohio is interesting because let's say, you know, 70, 80 years ago, there was unbelievable wealth and industry and local leadership and great cities that were built.As a result, great architecture, but it's probably suffered as much as any place with a lot of those companies becoming part of what you describe. They all eventually got absorbed and combined and merged or dissolved. And there's not as much of that local civic leadership as there probably was.Eric (18:56.934)No, it's not. You know, all those rust belt cities. Pittsburgh's actually probably the best example of a city that was able to pivot quickly, in part because they have a variety of higher learning institutions there that really help them become a research center in many ways and survive the shift away from making steel.Eric (19:25.955)and you know.Cleveland in 1920 was a top five city. It was number four or five city in America in terms of population. And it fell off a cliff there. I mean, it's still a big city, but it's a skeleton of itself. Everybody lives in the burbs, mostly.You know, they don't make, Cleveland never made cars or they made some steel, but they made a lot of the stuff that went into cars, mufflers, transmissions, engines, um, all sorts of that stuff and some steel. But I'll, you know, a lot of that's gone. Not all of it, but most of it.Eric (20:14.026)But you know, I think.Eric (20:18.334)I think those grassroot efforts to find better planning and better design work and expecting better.I think it needs to start with somebody in the community. If that business community is not there, then maybe it's a neighborhood association or downtown association or somebody needs to start it. And I think just follow that path of educating and doing some demonstrative projects, which I know you've done both in Kansas City and-time here in Savannah, you know, just showing how you can, nobody knew what a parklet was. You know, after that, I did one and, um, you know, COVID kind of opened that box and in many places.Kevin K (21:06.385)So we just went out and did one.Eric (21:17.778)I think it's just, but you're fighting uphill guerrilla warfare, but it's actually easier that way because you don't have to answer anybody. You just kind of do what you do. And so I really enjoyed that time we were doing that stuff here.And you know, we just met, a couple of us met again here in the fall. You know, we're going to pick up on some of that again, which is somewhat falling off the radar here. I just haven't had the same time that I had when you and I were doing it.Kevin K (21:54.73)Yeah. And Savannah also is, I guess it's kind of unique when you think about it because it's got, they're probably more like multi-generation families and people who are really invested in the place than there are in other cities in the country. We had a lot of luck with like realtors and other people who also cared about real estate value. But there definitely were, there are.some of those still legacy families that give a damn about the place and what it's changing into for better or worse. I think probably a lot of cities have that, but it felt like maybe some of those older southern cities, Savannah, Charleston, Beaufort, where it used to be, might have a little more of that than other places.Eric (22:46.226)Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. You know, this, this whole topic is really almost worth.Eric (22:55.147)a CNU sub-chapter or, you know, boot camp for guerrilla warfare or something.Kevin K (23:01.508)Ha haEric (23:03.574)You know, how, how to affect change in your local city. That would be actually an interesting session to do. Cause I get asked a lot on stuff.Kevin K (23:16.914)Yeah. Well, and you've also done it not just in Savannah but in Beaufort. You were there with like what, 14 years? Yeah. Something like that. All right.Eric (23:24.082)I don't remember yet, a long time. No, more than that actually, but because I'm getting old now. But yeah, and you know.Kevin K (23:31.736)HeheheEric (23:36.866)There's, you know, once you start waving the flag, people come out of the woodwork and say, yeah, you know, that's a good point, or I agree with that, or, but, you know, you got to, somebody's got to light the fire.Kevin K (23:51.651)Yeah.So what else is happening in Savannah these days? What are you seeing from a development or a design standpoint? I know when I left town and since then, there's been a lot more, I guess what we call, large-scale development east of downtown and a little bit on the west of downtown. And then we had a lot of discussions about, how do you make incremental?change and make some of that missing middle stuff easier in the older neighborhoods? What are you seeing these days? Is it kind of gradual change? Does it feel like things are moving faster or what?Eric (24:35.596)Um...Eric (24:39.702)No, it's there's, you know, if you drive over the bridge into Savannah from South Carolina, you know, I did it the other day and I don't know, there were 13 cranes, you know, the amount of cranes in the air is always a good judge of what's going on. And, you know, we are in that stage where.We kind of are coming out of a stage where we couldn't build hotels fast enough anywhere.And they've kind of run out of downtown space, although not entirely.actually they two of the biggest buildings you knowjust sold to hotel companies that are going to convert them back. The one building used to be a hotel that sits on Johnson Square. That's going to be converted back to a hotel, so we're losing all that office space. And the one East Bryant building, which is the tallest building in Savannah, was just bought. It's going to be at Ritz Carlton.Kevin K (25:42.58)Okay.Kevin K (25:54.63)Oh wow, that's quite an upgrade. It was a great building.Eric (25:57.59)Well, yeah, it's a great building. It's just, you know, it's displacing. We're losing two of the major office buildings downtown. Um, and you know, there's a ton of hotel buildings still going on. Um, there's a couple on their construction. I can see out my window here. Um,And the other thing is the large apartment building that takes up as much, you know, it's as much of a Texas donut as you can fit on whatever site you're on. So there's probably.Eric (26:37.558)six, seven of those going on in various parts of town right now. And some just finished, some just finished up. There are several kind of over by the bridge. There's a lot on upper Montgomery Street that are either built or coming online. That whole area is kind of marching southward. There's a couple of infill ones over by where I live. There's two right, right by my.Eric (27:09.858)And you know they're just they're huge big buildings and the ones inside the historic district you know have enough of a review process. I was walking by the one the other day and you know it's got a really nice brick to it. It's got nice windows you know but the all the you know all the details are kind of crappy. You know theThey made them put brick lintel up there, but it's fake. You know, it doesn't overhang the masonry at all. So, you know, all that little stuff that we kind of gripe about, you know, that stuff's not a hundred percent, but you know, the building forms okay and the materials are okay. But then you look at the ones that are outside that district and holy s**t, it looks just like the fourth war in Atlanta or, you know.any big city is that nameless, shitty architecture.the crazy colors and the rain screen b******t and the ins and outs and the balconies and all sorts of just, you can just see that those fall apart within 10 years. So we're getting some of that, you know, wherever they can do it, they try that. Thankfully, historic district kind of protects us from that to some degree. These are the same issues, you know, Charleston faced as well.We're usually about seven years behind whatever Charleston's going through.Eric (28:50.647)And but you know, it's especially during COVID.You know, all the downtown real estate in a span of 18 months doubled in value, doubled and had already, you know, I'll be here 10 years.Eric (29:10.527)in October.Eric (29:15.514)And you know everything's over four times of what it cost when I first moved here. Coming up on five times. So, you know, there's...Kevin K (29:27.182)It was already kind of at a high basis by then, at that point, honestly.Eric (29:34.376)It's, you know, coming up on, you know, residential stuff in my neighborhoods.Eric (29:46.622)eight, nine hundred bucks a foot. Something like that, you know?which is pretty expensive.Kevin K (29:56.786)Yeah, that's the understatement.Eric (30:00.987)You know and so that's kind of what's going on here. You know it's really filling in and you know theMidtown District, which is south of the Historic District, south of Forsyth Park, that continues to thrive.Eric (30:26.07)you know, some businesses, mostly food and beverage stuff opening up. And, you know, that neighborhoods, which is your old neighborhood, that's, that's also seen a similar, you know, bump in value, you know, which was a lot more affordable back in the day. It's even be hard pressed to find something, you know, under a million bucks up there now or something close to that.$800, $900, $800, $900. And tons of people, especially during COVID, they flocked here, man. There's so many people that cashed out of, my old neighbors were from Brooklyn. Sold whatever they had in Brooklyn, paid cash for whatever and put money in their pocket. So it's so cheap compared to those kinds of places.Still, still is.But yeah, it's a big jump in population here. And it's been interesting, because it's a big jump in.Eric (31:39.586)people living, so that's good. And then, we're still overrun with our, and most people I'm sure won't know that, but Savannah's got a hellacious take rate for Airbnbs, short term rentals. I've never come across anywhere that has any sort of ordinance like the one we have. It's 25% non-owner occupied.Kevin K (32:00.33)HeheheEric (32:09.226)by ward, which is our neighborhood system, if you will. So that doesn't include the owner-occupied ones or the illegal ones. So just the economics on that math drives a lot of... A lot of the Victorians were picked up as Airbnb investments by holding companies. I mean, they would sell without even looking at them just because they can do the math, right?Kevin K (32:39.286)I keep wondering when that bubble's gonna burst. Feels like it's bursting nationwide in different places, the Airbnb bubble, but Savannah, Charleston, those cities are so popular. I don't know.Eric (32:52.49)Yeah, the tourism numbers here are ridiculous for a city of this size, honestly. And with the last round of hotels online now and more coming, it's really overrun with tourists. It just wasn't designed to have as many people as we have here. So it's like, you need reservations now to go get dinner. It's like Manhattan.It's hard to roll in unless you find a neighborhood joint. There's a few left. You can just roll in and you happen to know somebody and you get dinner. Otherwise, there's her standing in line for some of these dumb restaurants. It's like.Kevin K (33:35.498)Hmm. Yeah, that's a new thing.Eric (33:37.975)this.Kevin K (33:38.998)So I also want to talk a little bit about how your practice has changed over the years and like what all you're doing today. Eric's firm is Brown Design Studio. He's an architect. He's done architecture and urban design and urban planning but probably heavier on architecture. And I'm curious like – so you've been doing this a couple of years now? And –You know, obviously a lot has changed from when you initially started doing like new working in new urbanist communities and doing the architecture you're doing. What do you see in today that what if anything is kind of different about your approach and what you're working on, who your clients are, that sort of thing?Eric (34:30.783)Um, that's like, you know, that's a good question.I think, and this is our 26th year in business. So we've survived a couple minor meltdowns and one major one, but our whole focus, we don't do anything that's not, that wouldn't be classified as new urbanism, whether it's infill work or.Greenfield work or something in between. So, you know, we're not like local architects doing whatever comes in the door locally. You know, we work solely in New Urbanist projects, you know, across North America and a few other spots. But that's what we continue to do. And so, you know, not much has changed.In that regard, that's always what our mission was. And we're still on our, it's like the Starship Enterprise, we're on our 26th year mission to help build healthy, walkable places. And it's worth it. It's been a fun challenge. So we continue to do that. We have long-term relations with a lot of, most of our clients are developers. And we have...You know, we have some long-term relationships that, you know, we're here when they need us. They know what we do and, you know, what we're good at, what we're not good at. Um, so that's, that's our, that's our core. That's our core right there.Kevin K (36:19.658)Do you find yourself doing more infill these days as opposed to greenfield stuff or is that not the case?Eric (36:31.054)Um, no, it's, you know, we always, we've always done, you know, because something that plugs in a new urbanist community also plugs in an older urbanist community. You know? Um, and so those always went hand in hand for us, but you know, to, to the heart of your point, yeah, after, you know, definitely after, you know, when the market came back in 2012, 13, whatever 14, you know, um,Definitely we're doing a lot of smaller infill projects. Some of them are pretty random. We'll get a call from a guy in Michigan somewhere that wants to do six townhouses on an urban property his parents owned or something. All sorts of stuff like that all over the place. And some bigger projects, there's still some bigger projects kind of plodding along.we were able to do.Eric (37:34.562)project in Oklahoma, outside Norman, in between Norman and Oklahoma City. That's pretty interesting, a greenfield project. It's big, 720 acres. We did that planning work about three years ago and last year we just got some finished vertical architecture done. So we're continuing to work on that project that we're real proud of.which is called Salem. And it's been fun, you know, doing the land plan, you know, internally. A lot of times we work with some other land planners. So this one we did in-house and then you know with some other team members, but it's been real fun, real rewarding and then you know delivering the architecture to build it out. That's keeping us busy as well, you know that project.But yeah, we've always somehow been known for our missing middle work. We were doing that before anybody knew what to call it, before Dan had invented that term. And so that's still one of our bread and butters. We're still known for that somehow.Eric (38:55.714)done a lot of multi-family projects, continue to do those a lot, a lot of townhouses. And what's interesting is I finally got...Eric (39:08.054)You know, over the years, and I'm sure you've done this as well, you know, where you, you want to take a garden apartment guy and get him to do what we want him to do, right? And I've failed. I failed probably. I'm probably, I'm now like one in 17. So I've got one that I got to actually do it. Um, that's not totally true, but, um, this was a big, you know, 350 unit.project and we got him to build it out of, you know, four, six, eight and 12 pack units. And it's under construction right now. So that was interesting. I think that's going to be a good case study going forward because his rent, you know, I'm anxious to see how his rents compete. It's in a, it's in a, you know, a decent walkable community.So I'm interested to see how the financial case study works out.Kevin K (40:13.557)Where's that one?Eric (40:14.942)That one's in Bluffton, actually, which is across the river in South Carolina. Near for people who don't know it's near Hilton.Kevin K (40:16.842)Okay, cool.Eric (40:25.425)Um.Kevin K (40:27.476)How have the conversations changed with builders and developers since the early days of doing this stuff? Did you have to do a lot more arm-twisting early on with some of your early clients? Is it an easier sell now to do the kind of work that you want to do?Eric (40:50.27)Well, no, it's not. It's the same cell. However, you know, I'm not the smartest guy, but I eventually learned to stop chasing those clients. So, you know, I don't waste my time with them. If you want to do something else, you know, have fun. Here, I'll give you some names of people to call. You know, we can't help you. Um, because I don't give a s**t. You know, if you want to go do some five-car garage, houses somewhere, go have fun.Um, but, you know, so we only take on projects that, you know, are in line with our vision, our mission. And, you know, that that's just what I learned to do, you know, be selective about, you know, who we're going to work for, because we don't want to do everything. We only want to do, you know, something that helps our, our mission, which is, you know, building great communities. And, um, if we're, you know, in alignment,When people do call us, we're gonna run through a wall for them. And we believe in what we do every day. And so I guess I got smarter is what happened.Kevin K (42:02.292)I remember a lot of those conversations too. I got, my God, we went through trying to convince so many crappy builders and developers to do something better.Eric (42:12.31)And what was your, you know, and I did the same thing, man. Um, we were both young, you know, I have similar backgrounds and, you know, had young companies and were young men. Dumb young ideals that you probably put, you know, what was your, what was success rate on?Kevin K (42:14.378)there.Kevin K (42:24.259)Yeah.Oh, almost zero. Yeah.Eric (42:28.726)Yeah, it's like me with these apartment guys. I finally got one, a big one to do it. You know, we've done lots of little ones, but to get a 350 unit thing, that was a big win, but it took me 20 some years to do it. So that's not a good use of my time. But I think what's interesting.Kevin K (42:45.311)Yeah.Eric (42:56.014)is in my, you know, my, my victory that I'm kind of patting myself on the back about there with the apartment, they wouldn't have come to me.if they didn't get rejected prior, because it was, they had to conform with a form, form-based code that we have in the right. And so that's how, you know, otherwise they would have just happily built their normal shitty garden apartment. You know, so that code reform is still critically important.you know, part of our world. Cause you really, you know, convincing someone, you know, to do what we would term the right thing versus, you know, what they're planning on doing. It's a low percentage win rate for anybody. I don't care how good you are, you know, as a closer or whatever, but, and it's just, you know, it's a waste of all of our time and efforts cause it burns you out cause you lose so much.Kevin K (44:00.979)Yeah.Eric (44:01.954)And, you know, I think our efforts would be better spent into, you know, guerrilla warfare to get the codes changed so that these developers now have to start doing the right thing. And then.Kevin K (44:12.698)Yeah, and nurturing like other younger developers who want to do something different, helping bring them along.Eric (44:23.254)Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, but a lot of these projects, you know, are still the big boy, you need $40 million in capital to tackle and you know, those, those guys, you know, I love the small income stuff. We do a lot of that. Um, but you know, it's like, you're talking about the market share of like a Bugatti versus, you know, Volkswagen or something.Kevin K (44:30.098)Yeah. Yep.Kevin K (44:51.902)Yeah.Eric (44:52.374)You know, you got to change Volkswagen. You got to change the mass market.And so I think that guerrilla warfare into code reform at a local level is something that we don't advocate enough for, which goes way back to our start of our conversation. So I think that's, if I could do something besides outlawing traffic engineers.Kevin K (45:07.358)Yeah.Eric (45:22.814)That would be one of the things is push us on this code reform where everybody's working off some type of form-based code.Kevin K (45:32.166)Yeah. Well, it's interesting because even after working in that world for almost 30 years or whatever, we've seen some good efforts with code reform and some good efforts with regulatory reform but there are a lot of days where it feels like we've made zero progress depending on where you're working.Eric (45:56.)It is, you know, it's and I've.You know.Eric (46:03.734)Like the analogy is...Eric (46:08.27)You're.You know, somebody's spending all sorts of time and effort to build stuff downtown here. Great. And we're trying to, you know, expand downtown even, which is a, which is an awesome thing that we're able to do here a little bit, you know, expand your urban core. Meanwhile, you know, out in our suburbs are happily building, you know, Costco's and targets and all sorts of b******t subdivisions. And it's like.Eric (46:40.502)You know, we don't learn. And we don't learn. And some of the strong town stuff makes so much sense when you look at how the life cycle of those suburbs. And it's funny because poolers now, after spending all sorts of money on all sorts of great police stations and city halls and all this stuff, now all of a sudden, they've got funding that's different.Eric (47:10.847)It's just so funny because you know they're hitting that seven year curve on a lot of stuff.Eric (47:18.358)But, you know, I guess that's just, you know, it's just frustrating that the, the conventional model is still building, you know, what, 90% of our built environment here easily. And, um, you know, I guessKevin K (47:31.986)Yeah. Easily. Yeah.Eric (47:40.526)You know, I've just kind of almost accepted it. It's like almost you have to let that happen before you can come back and fix it in maybe 30 years or urbanize it in 30 years. It's almost like, you know, the old patterns of.development where you would build, you know, one story buildings down on Main Street. And then all of a sudden it made sense to somebody build a two story building and made more money than everybody tore down the one story buildings. And you just have to maybe go through that process, I guess. I don't know.Kevin K (48:14.198)Yeah, I mean, it's such a machine. All that stuff is such a – I mean, so you have to envy it. It's an incredible machine. The efficiency of it is amazing. It makes a ton of money for people if you get your timing right in the market. Of course, you could lose a ton of money if you get your timing wrong. But yeah, I like –I always think about like, I make the military analogy. So if you're somebody who cares about traditional urban planning, it's like we fight hand to hand combat in our older neighborhoods and we're really excited when we're in a battle or two. In the meantime, it's like the enemy is carpet bombing, you know, everything outside the older neighborhoods just at will and we kind of willfully ignore it. But yeah.It will continue on I think as long as it can continue on, it seems to.Eric (49:16.246)Well, you know, we're...were how many, you know, it's the expected lifestyle. You know, there's no more generations. There's very, you know, very few percentage of people that have not been raised in the suburbs. Yeah, so it's the normal and, you know, driving, you know, 25 minutes to.Kevin K (49:34.43)Yeah, exactly. It's been like four generations now, yeah.Eric (49:44.75)go to your super Kroger or whatever, or a grocery store, is normal for us.Kevin K (49:51.706)Yeah. That's like, so like the last thing I wanted to ask you is, I mean, so you just mentioned you've, you're working on this Greenfield project in Oklahoma. And I know, I know you well enough to know that you've worked, you still work on some other Greenfield projects here and there. But, but by and large, it seems like I might have the wrong impression about this. I fully admit that I could be wrong about it. You're more plugged into the, this world than I am, but it seems like there's a whole lot less.of those Greenfield New Urbanist projects going on than there were say 20 years ago across the country. I don't know. I guess I wonder, do you think that's wrong or right? If that's the case, what's going on? I think we all thought that once Seaside and all those projects and then Kentlands and once they were all 10, 15 years old.and people saw how cool they were that we would see like an explosion of these around the country and that clearly hasn't happened.Eric (50:55.65)Not exactly. And I think you're, you know, I think you're right. Our, I think our expectations 20 years ago that we were going to change the machine or if not the machine, at least the, my thought was always you would show the market there alternatives.Kevin K (51:18.678)Admittedly, we were like naive and idealistic. I mean that was also part of it.Eric (51:23.67)Well, you know, I'm still kind of that same naive, idealistic person in many ways, which is both pro and cons. But, you know, I think...Eric (51:40.466)I think these projects.Eric (51:46.102)have shown people.that there are alternatives to living in the cul-de-sac, conventional neighborhood world.Eric (52:00.358)And I think that if you look at the market research, it shows you the prices in Ketlin's, the prices in ION, the prices in Norton Commons is significantly higher than its competitor that's a conventional thing right next door or right down the road.Eric (52:30.076)But it also takes 10, 15 years to do something like that. And meanwhile,You know, most of the development work is.Eric (52:45.398)you know, it's easier to go to a D.R. Horton and be done in three, four years, five years. You're done. Right. And the landowner got their money in the first year.They didn't get as much money as they could have, but they got it the first year and they're out. They're on to the next thing.You know, and I think there's just a perfect storm of all these variables there. Those are some of them, you know, the time investment that it takes. I think, you know, we've all, UI has stolen most of the good ideas of the new urbanism that they can make sense of on a spreadsheet, right? And they've thrown all the other stuff away. So they, you know, they have,co-opted some things from us, but you know, UIs, those folks are developing most of the stuff here, you know, not the Urban New Urbanist group, NTBA is a fantastic group that I really enjoy spending time with.Eric (53:56.066)You know, those are developers that are in one, two, three, four places, you know, for 10 years, 15 years, or, you know, you can only do so much. Even the bigger, more sophisticated ones. You know, meanwhile, these other guys are just, you know, knocking down 10,000 houses a year.Kevin K (54:22.686)Yeah, and while I think we kind of recognized how hard it was to do those first TNDs 30 years ago, and I think it's gotten a little easier, it's still incredibly hard. Everything about it is incredibly hard, and you really have, it's kind of a unique personality of a developer who wants to take that on and push for it, because you're gonna be fighting, even today, you're still gonna be fighting so many battles.to just execute even a mediocre T&D.Eric (54:56.626)And, you know, I think there's, you know, there's still a lot of Greenfield work. I think you're seeing a little bit of, you know, obviously no one, not many projects survived 2008. And so, you know, you didn't see many come back on.It took a long time for them to come back online. And in some places, our sailor project, which has virtually very little regulatory oversight, it took three years to get vertical, which is unheard of anywhere else. Most places are still in their entitlements in year three. It takes you five years to come out of the ground. Most places.Eric (55:45.89)You know, it's just a long investment. And, you know, again, the ULI guys are typically...A lot of those guys have to answer to the capital.And the capital is not that patient generally. You know what I mean? They gotta have a plan to move so much dirt or lots or whatever it is. And they just can't wait into something for 10, 15 years, it's hard. I think for that group to understand that. And I guess, you know, that's.Kevin K (56:04.233)Mm-hmm.Eric (56:25.858)you know, maybe something that we have never solved is how do you engage that industry in a different way. And, you know, you remember back to the New Urban Fund that was supposed to show them how to do it. Um, that didn't quite work.So I don't know, you know, it's that.Eric (56:47.362)I, you know, I'm a market guy. So the market guys believe the market's going to kind of tell you what to do. And, you know, they're going to go the easy route, but they're going to put in the big pool and all the stuff that helps them increase their sales rate and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, it is what it is.But the people who do, you know, trail with outside Atlanta, they're doing great. They're killing it. You know, so whenever we do these, you know, Norton Commons continues to kill it.They just dominate the market. Once, once you do it, you can do it right. We haven't been able to set up the machine in most cases, you know, the industry to, to continue that it's always been kind of a family or one-off or. You know, very few of these have been done by corporate folks, I guess, just like watercolor that there's been a few, but, you know, they quickly went back to selling pine forest or whatever they were doing before that.Kevin K (57:54.102)Yeah, exactly. Like St. Joe Company did watercolor and water sound and stuff and they own so much land and I think they – it seems like they've kind of gone away from that back to a hybridized version of what they were doing before.Eric (58:08.574)Yeah, and it's, so I don't know, man. I, you know, I do think, you know, if you, if you look around, there's also a lot of smaller projects that we don't really hear about. You know, if you call up Mike Watkins or somebody like that, Mike, Mike's extremely busy and that's what he's working on. You know, he's working on these a hundred acre little projects that he's, you know, nailing and, you know, we do a lot of work with Mike andTom Lowe and those guys. There's a lot of smaller projects that just you aren't gonna hear about. And they're never gonna be, you know, we've done some DPZ. We've got a DPZ project that's stuck entitlement in the entitlement process that we're set up to do some of the architecture on. But you know, it's year four.Kevin K (58:42.536)Interesting.Eric (59:00.394)So they'll call us when they need us, but there's not as many getting the limelight that we used to get. And I, you know, I just had this conversation with Rob Studeville, who used to do one of my favorite things, which was write the New Urban News. I love getting that magazine every month. Remember? Um, so it was good to catch up with him about that, but he, you know, he had those same thoughts and, um, you know, I just don't think maybe as a movement, we're communicating what we're doing very well with.Kevin K (59:15.936)Mm-hmm.Kevin K (59:29.534)Yeah.Eric (59:30.13)other. You know, nobody knows about my Salem project. It's probably one of the bigger ones. You know, Mike doesn't, you know, Michael shares stuff, you know, when he needs one of us to come in and help him on stuff. I don't know what they're doing.I don't know what DPZ or Dover Cole is doing, unless we're working on a specific project with them. So we really don't share as much as we used to.Kevin K (59:57.67)Yeah, I think that's a great point. You know, it's like another, we could do a whole other hour sometime on how CNU itself has changed and gotten away from a lot of the practical side of just building great communities. And I think a big part of that is we've lost, we're not talking to each other about who's doing what. And we used to actually have a running list of all these places all over the country. I don't think that even exists anymore.Eric (01:00:25.798)I don't think that's a priority anymore.Kevin K (01:00:27.558)No, it doesn't seem to be.Eric (01:00:30.434)But you know, I think.Eric (01:00:34.282)you know, that, that CNU group.has gotten away from communicating and with each other our successes. Cause that's a large, cause it kept you going. You know, we'd all go back to our little hometowns after seeing you and you feel, I would feel renewed and re-energized. And, um, you know, I would, I would love getting New Urban News in the mail. And I would, whatever I was doing, I would stop and sit down and read the thing. Cause it was great to hear about, you know, some new exciting stuff or some new projects.And ironically, in an age where it's very easy to communicate these days, you know, we don't. We don't pat ourselves on the back. We don't share our success stories.Kevin K (01:01:21.242)It's kind of like seeing you never evolve and communication wise we never evolved past the email to serve.Eric (01:01:28.53)No, you're right. You're exactly, you're 100% about that. The most painful way to communicate that's ever been invented, I think.Kevin K (01:01:29.618)Kind of hilarious. Yeah.Kevin K (01:01:36.864)No doubt.Eric (01:01:38.114)except maybe the group text, I don't know.Kevin K (01:01:42.697)Yeah. Eric, I think we'll wrap it there. It's been about an hour. What are your, what's your favorite spots in Savannah? Your favorite hangout spots these days.Eric (01:01:53.902)Hmm, that's a good question. Depends what my mood is. But, you know, I've got a...I've got a couple of establishments, you know, two blocks from my house that you're most likely to find me in one of those three places. You got, you know, the most famous dive bar in the world, Pinky's.Kevin K (01:02:16.159)Mm-hmm.Kevin K (01:02:19.914)Mm-hmm.Eric (01:02:23.642)There's a place called Savoy, which is run by the people who own Pinkies. And I think that wasn't there when you were here, was it? So that while you were here, it was this kind of shitty wine bar that nobody ever wants. So it's in that space in the Drake Tower. And it's, you know, you go in there and it's 95% locals, 90% something like that. So, you know, I hang out there and then, you know, over by the...Kevin K (01:02:32.05)I don't think I don't remember it now.Kevin K (01:02:37.57)Oh, yeah, yeah. OK.Eric (01:02:53.198)Perry Lane Hotel. There's some stuff there. Those are my hangouts these days.Kevin K (01:02:59.454)All right, so anybody listening, if you're in Savannah, you know where to find Eric, buy him a drink and talk about all this stuff and much more and find out what he's up to. So it's been great to catch up with you. I'll get my butt down there to Savannah one of these days soon so we can dive a little deeper and do the off-color stuff.Eric (01:03:25.17)Okay, good. I don't think you have to censor anything. So I was on my best behavior. But, you know, I, again, just want to reiterate, I think it's great that you're doing this. This is a great way to communicate with folks. Again, we need to do kind of more of this stuff. And, you know, I think just to reiterate earlier, you know, we accomplished a lot here, man. So I'm proud to.Kevin K (01:03:30.11)Not this time, yeah.Eric (01:03:54.606)have had you here as a Superman to my Batman or whatever, whatever you want to term it. So I miss you.Kevin K (01:04:00.29)Thank you.As long as it's not Batman or Robin.Eric (01:04:07.158)I don't want to see you in tights. That would not be a pretty sight, but miss you here, buddy. I appreciate you.Kevin K (01:04:10.305)Nobody.Thanks very much. I definitely miss you, Miss Savannah. I need to find myself there more often. So good to talk to you. See you.Eric (01:04:22.466)All right, buddy. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Austin interviews Anthony Catania, an experienced architect and urban designer who specializes in New Urbanist communities and TNDs. They delve into the essence of building for people, the challenges faced in the process, and the vision required for creating vibrant, walkable communities. Anthony shares insights gained from his diverse career, spanning Washington, D.C., to his recent move to Oklahoma City. Discussing the nuances of designing at various scales, from individual buildings to entire neighborhoods, he emphasizes the importance of prioritizing human experiences in urban design. The conversation touches on the impact of zoning regulations on development and explores the concept of "maximum dimensions" in design, contrasting it with the prevalent "minimum dimensions" approach. Anthony challenges the conventional notion of suburban convenience, highlighting how well-designed urban spaces offer a different, more sustainable kind of convenience. They discuss the challenges faced in overcoming formulaic suburban development, where corporations dictate a standardized approach. The conversation also addresses the clash between the corporate, efficiency-driven mindset and the need for adaptable, context-specific design to create unique, thriving places. Zoning emerges as a key obstacle to innovative development, prompting a broader discussion on the need for a shift in regulatory frameworks to foster better-designed, people-centric spaces. Anthony concludes by emphasizing the critical role of zoning reform in realizing a vision for more vibrant, culturally rich communities. Tune in to gain valuable insights into the world of urban design, architecture, and the challenges and opportunities in creating places that prioritize people and culture. RECOMMENDED READING The Geography of Nowhere: Americas Man Made Landscape - James Howard Kunstler

Buy Will's Book, Temenos: https://www.amazon.com/Temenos-Design-Experience-Urbanism-Spiritual/dp/1950186490 Check Out the Podcast: https://gettherapybirmingham.podbean.com/ Get More Free Resources and Articles:  https://gettherapybirmingham.com/   Join us as we unravel the fascinating connections between our built environment, spiritual values, and collective consciousness, delving into topics like mythology, shamanism, integral spirituality, and much more.

This is a special collaborative episode with the Seaside Institute. Christy Milliken co-hosts this episode featuring Seaside, Florida Founder, Robert Davis and Archictect and Urbanist, Dhiru Thadani.  This conversation is available on both the SOWAL House and Seaside Institute podcasts. We cover some of the origin story of Robert Davis, the Seaside vision, and the evolution of both Rosemary Beach and Alys Beach.   We talk about the community of Seaside, FL and how it was shaped by visionary Robert Davis.  Robert has always been skillful at surrounding himself with people he is inspired by and has a heart for inspiring others. Davis has a history of looking for ways to curate people to make up the community he would like to live in. While the development of Seaside has been covered in depth, most miss that one of Robert's talents is simply seeking out passioniate and talented people like Dave Rauschkolb for Bud & Alley's, Charlie Modica and family for Modica Market, and Bob & Linda White of Sundog Books. While he is prolific in town development, he also understands that the heart of a community are the people who occupy it.   Architect and Urbanist, Dhiru Thadani shares earllier memories of this 80-Acre town with big impact and explains the evolution of New Urbanism. Dhiru is the author of two books that archive many of the muses, ideas, and influences of Seaside.  In his book Visions of Seaside, he chronicals the thirty-year history of the evolution and development of Seaside, Florida, its global influence on town planning and the resurgence of place-making in the built environment.  In 2021, Thadani's second book titled Reflections on Seaside is the most comprehensive book on the history and development of the nation's first and most influential New Urbanist town that he simply dedicates "to all who strive to lift the human spirit through beauty".

Since the founding of the New Urbanist town of Seaside, Florida, in the early 1980s, Daryl Rose Davis has led her community as a visionary and entrepreneur alongside her husband, Robert Davis (see VIE Speaks Season One, Episode 11). Daryl has also been a staunch champion for business owners finding their stride, especially women in business. She founded the globally known company The Seaside Style® after years of selling her wares at the Seaside Farmers Market, and its simple, classic designs have since become a symbol of a life well lived by the beach. Lisa and Daryl discuss all this, plus the upcoming The Seaside Style® coffee-table book and much more in this insightful episode. AS MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE: 2023 Seaside Prize™ Weekend February 24-26, 2023. Click HERE to purchase admission tickets. Stay tuned for The Seaside Style® coffee-table book, coming 2023 LET'S CONNECT: Instagram: @viespeaks YouTube: (@VIEtelevision | WATCH VIE Speaks) Website: viemagazine.com CONNECT WITH DARYL Instagram: @seasidefl | @cabana.seaside | @seasideyachtclub | @bumpandbabyseaside Website: seasidefl.com A special thank you to Rose & Co. for sponsoring today's episode. For sponsorship inquiries, please contact kelly@viemagazine.com and hailey@viemagazine.com.

A white picket fence might seem as genteel as tea at the Ritz but actually it's a fiendish thing loaded with meaning, the Jekyll and Hyde of the streetscape. You only have to look back at the genesis of its name — from the French piquet, meaning the pointed stakes that would be erected around archers back in the middle ages to protect them as they went about their business of killing people. The plain wooden fence has been around for much longer, of course, but who decided to make something prettier?

Aaron talks with Louis Nequette of Nequette Architecture and Design, an early entrant into the build-to-rent space, where he has proven that student housing can be inspiring. Louis is one of the best New Urbanist architects practicing today, and he shares what he has learned about navigating the twin development pressures of managing project costs while creating great places.

Aaron kicks off the second season of the Townbuilder's Podcast with the newly appointed Executive Director of the Congress for the New Urbanism, Rick Cole. Rick talks about the need to engage the next generation of New Urbanist practitioners, the state of the organization, the timelessness of the Charter's principles, and how he hopes to pivot CNU to ensure organizational success for decades to come.

Lake Bluff resident Scott Spires novel "Abandon All Hope" is coming out soon and he came on the show to tell us all about it. We will update the links as the book hits the market. HerHere''s some info to "wet your whistle" Biography Scott Spires is a writer, a translator, and a nomad at heart. Born in India, he has since enjoyed a transatlantic life, living in the United States, Argentina, Great Britain, the Czech Republic, and Russia. He studied linguistics and Slavic languages at the universities of Chicago, St. Andrews, and Oxford, and works as a translator from Russian and German into English. Currently he lives just north of Chicago in charming and bucolic Lake Bluff, a few minutes walk from Lake Michigan. As a writer, he has an extensive publication record, which includes academic articles on linguistics, as well as articles on such diverse subjects as the Czech beer industry, the New Urbanist movement in America, minority languages in Russia, and many others. His literary side is manifested in numerous book reviews and short stories. Abandon All Hope is his first novel. Set in Chicago in 1998 when Clinton was in office, the story evokes such 1990s classics as High Fidelity and Fight Club, our two antiheroes struggle against unsympathetic employers, uncomprehending relatives, meaningless jobs, romantic frustration, and social isolation, all while searching for a life of meaning and purpose, each in his own way. Abandon All Hope is a comic novel of ideas that asks the questions: How do you make your way in a world where stability is illusory, fraud and lies are ubiquitous, and happiness is always elusive? Should you be a realist or an idealist? And how's life working out for you, anyway? Hot off the presses!!! The book is out!!! https://swspires.weebly.com/blog/behind-abandon-all-hope https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/abandon-all-hope-scott-spires/1140194144?ean=9781736827826 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1736827820/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Scott+Spires&qid=1632395171&s=books&sr=1-3 https://swspires.weebly.com/ Do you have an idea for a topic or guest? pete@lakeforestpodcast.com Want to join the Lake Forest Podcast Social Club? https://www.patreon.com/LakeForestPodcast --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/lakeforestpodcast/message

In the 1990s, Rick Cole presided over the update of Pasadena's general plan, which led to the development of one of the most recognizable transit-oriented developments in the United States (recognizable to planning nerds, at least): the Del Mar Transit Village on Los Angeles Metro's Gold Line. At the time, the city was a hotbed of New Urbanism thought, of which the Del Mar Transit Village was a prime example. Despite the high profile of New Urbanist ideas, and of the Congress for the New Urbanism, Del Mar remained a relatively isolated example of the ethos and the aesthetic.  In the ensuing decades, Cole moved on to serve as city manager in Azusa and Ventura (where he collaborated with CP&DR Publisher Bill Fulton), and in the past decade he served in the Los Angeles Mayor's Office and, most recently, as city manager in Santa Monica, from 2015 to 2020. The consummate Californian and longtime proponent of New Urbanist is now taking on a formal, national role, as the leader of the Congress for the New Urbanism itself. Cole official became CNU's executive director in May.  CP&DR's Josh Stephens spoke with Cole about New Urbanism's influence on California, California's influence on it, and its prospects here and around the country now that it has gone from a radical upstart theory to a motivating force among many progressive planners, designers, and developers. 

Designed by Imagineers, and located on the outskirts of Walt Disney World, the town of Celebration, Florida welcomed its first residents on 18th June, 1996.Over 5,000 families had applied to be amongst the first ever homeowners to reside, full-time, in the grounds of a theme park. Conceptually, the town was a mash-up of the wistful nostalgia that inspired the designs of Disneyland's original Main St, USA and Disney's ‘utopian city of tomorrow' vision (which, eventually, manifested as EPCOT).In this episode, Olly, Rebecca and Arion consider the restrictions of living in a New Urbanist community; ask why the town remains over 90% white; and wonder whether anyone really needs singing bins…Further Reading:• Disney fan-site ‘Inside The Magic' on Walt's ‘Florida Project': https://insidethemagic.net/2021/01/walts-disney-florida-project-lp1/• Insider takes a tour of modern-day Celebration (2020): https://www.insider.com/what-it-is-like-to-live-in-celebration-florida-2020-1• ‘Celebration: the creepy real life town Disney built in Florida' (news.com.au, 2019):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCko6cVniEwFor bonus material and to support the show, visit Patreon.com/RetrospectorsWe'll be back on Monday! Follow us wherever you get your podcasts: podfollow.com/RetrospectorsThe Retrospectors are Olly Mann, Rebecca Messina & Arion McNicoll, with Matt Hill.Theme Music: Pass The Peas. Announcer: Bob Ravelli. Graphic Design: Terry Saunders. Edit Producer: Emma Corsham.Copyright: Rethink Audio / Olly Mann 2021 See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

About Bill Browning:Bill's Profile: linkedin.com/in/bill-browning-a6b29227Website: terrapinbrightgreen.com  (Company Website)Email: bill@terrapinbg.comBio:Bill Browning is one of the green building and real estate industry's foremost thinkers and strategists, and an advocate for sustainable design solutions at all levels of business, government, and civil society. His expertise has been sought out by organizations as diverse as Fortune 500 companies, leading universities, non-profit organizations, the U.S. military, and foreign governments.Early in his career, Bill helped build Buckminster Fuller's last experimental structure. In 1991, he founded Green Development Services at the Rocky Mountain Institute, an entrepreneurial, non-profit “think and do tank”. His consulting projects at RMI included new towns, resorts, building renovations, and high-profile demonstration projects including Wal-Mart's Eco-mart, the Greening of the White House, the National Aquarium, Disney Hong Kong, the Pentagon, Lucas Film, Grand Canyon National Park and the Sydney 2000 Olympic Village. In 1999 Green Development Services was awarded the President's Council for Sustainable Development/Renew America Prize.Beginning in 2004, Bill was the Director of Design and Environment for Haymount, a New Urbanist community in Virginia. In this capacity he led the development's site planning, authored a set of design guidelines, and guided development of innovative infrastructure systems. In 2005 he co-founded Browning+Bannon LLC, an independent real estate and consulting firm focused on environmentally responsive development.Bill was a founding member of the U.S. Green Building Council's Board of Directors, and served as Chair of USGBC's Governance Committee. Over the years Bill has served on the Boards of Greening America, the Colorado Alliance for Environmental Education, RealEnergy, the Roaring Fork Conservancy, and ioby. He has also served on The Nature Conservancy Real Estate Advisory Council, ASTM Green Building Rating Committee, and the Department of Defense's Science Board Energy Task Force, the AIA National Committee on the Environment, the Department of State's Overseas Building Office Advisory Council, the Real Estate Advisory Council for the Trust for Public Land, the Interface “Green Dream Team.” He is a GSA national peer, and editorial advisor for Environmental Building News, Environmental Design & Construction Magazine, and Green @ Work.In addition to consulting, Bill writes and lectures widely on sustainable design and building practices. He is a co-author of Green Development: Integrating Ecology and Real Estate; A Primer on Sustainable Building; Greening the Building and the Bottom Line; and Biophilic Design; The Economics of Biophilia and Midcentury (un)Modern. He has published articles in Architectural Record, Progressive Architecture, Urban Land, and AIA's Environmental Resource Guide. His work has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Elle and Popular Science, among others, and he has been interviewed by NPR, CNN, and PBS.Bill received a Bachelor's degree in Environmental Design from the University of Colorado, specializing in energy-conscious architecture and resource management. He holds a Master of Science in Real Estate Development from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he was awarded the MIT Center for Real Estate's 1991 Public-Sector Fellowship, and, in 1995, the Charles H. Spaulding Award. In 1998 Bill was named one of five people “Making a Difference” by Buildings magazine. In 2001 he was selected as an honorary member of the American Institute of Architects, and in 2004 he was honored with the U.S. Green Building Council's Leadership Award.In 2006, Bill founded Terrapin with longtime partners Bob Fox, Rick Cook and Chris Garvin to craft high-performance environmental strategies for corporations, governments, and large-scale real estate developments. Our diverse clients include Cacique Resort in Costa Rica, Starwood's Element hotel brand, NRDC, PNB Malaysia, New Songdo City in Korea, InterfaceFLOR, Bank of America and the National Geographic Society. Bill is based in Washington, D.C.BIll  Browning is the co-author, along with his colleague and Catie Ryan Balagtas, of the new book "Nature Inside - A Biophilic Design Guide, available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Nature-Inside-biophilic-design-guide/dp/1859469035About David Kepron:LinkedIn Profile: linkedin.com/in/david-kepron-9a1582bWebsites:  https://www.davidkepron.com    (personal website)vmsd.com/taxonomy/term/8645  (Blog)Email: david.kepron@NXTLVLexperiencedesign.comTwitter: DavidKepronPersonal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidkepron/NXTLVL Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nxtlvl_experience_design/Bio:David Kepron is a multifaceted creative professional with a deep curiosity to understand ‘why', ‘what's now' and ‘what's next'. He brings together his background as an architect, artist, educator, author, podcast host and builder to the making of meaningful and empathically-focused, community-centric customer connections at brand experience places around the globe. David is a former VP - Global Design Strategies at Marriott International. While at Marriott, his focus was on the creation of compelling customer experiences within Marriott's “Premium Distinctive” segment which included: Westin, Renaissance, Le Meridien, Autograph Collection, Tribute Portfolio, Design Hotels and Gaylord hotels. In 2020 Kepron founded NXTLVL Experience Design, a strategy and design consultancy, where he combines his multidisciplinary approach to the creation of relevant brand engagements with his passion for social and cultural anthropology, neuroscience and emerging digital technologies. As a frequently requested international speaker at corporate events and international conferences focusing on CX, digital transformation, retail, hospitality, emerging technology, David shares his expertise on subjects ranging from consumer behaviors and trends, brain science and buying behavior, store design and visual merchandising, hotel design and strategy as well as creativity and innovation. In his talks, David shares visionary ideas on how brand strategy, brain science and emerging technologies are changing guest expectations about relationships they want to have with brands and how companies can remain relevant in a digitally enabled marketplace. David currently brings his creativity and insight on brand experiences to an international audience as a member of VMSD magazine's Editorial Advisory Board, as a Board Member of the Interactive Customer Experience Association (ICXA) and Sign Research Foundation's (SRF) Program Committee.He has held teaching positions at New York's Fashion Institute of Technology (F.I.T.), the Department of Architecture & Interior Design of Drexel University in Philadelphia, the Laboratory Institute of Merchandising (L.I.M.) in New York, the International Academy of Merchandising and Design in Montreal and he served as the Director of the Visual Merchandising Department at LaSalle International Fashion School (L.I.F.S.) in Singapore.  In 2014 Kepron published his first book titled: “Retail (r)Evolution: Why Creating Right-Brain Stores Will Shape the Future of Shopping in a Digitally Driven World” and he is currently working on his second book to be published soon. David also writes a popular blog called “Brain Food” which is published monthly on vmsd.com. In September of 2020, he launched the “NXTLVL Experience Design” podcast which brings listeners dialogues about “DATA: Design, Architecture, Technology and the Arts.” His guests include thought leaders who are driven by a passion to create the ‘New Possible' and promote new paradigms of experiences into the mainstream. 

The Problem: You never know what a whale’s going to do. (Recorded on Monday, April 5, 2021.) Support John’s work on Patreon. This episode of Roderick on the Line is brought to you by: Squarespace. Free trial plus 10% off your first purchase with the special offer code, “SUPERTRAIN.” Mack Weldon. Mack Weldon is better than whatever you’re wearing right now. Use offer code “ROTL” for 20% off your order.

#338 —Andres Duany is a key founder of the New Urbanist movement. His Miami-based firm, DPZ, with wife and partner Lizz Plater-Zyberk, designed the iconic new town, Seaside, Florida, and scores of other excellent projects in the USA and around the world. Andres continues to lead the way in urban design and in these turbulent times, I think you’ll appreciate communing with his fierce and humorous intelligence. The KunstlerCast theme music is the beautiful Two Rivers Waltz written and performed by Larry Unger.

BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE Eve Picker: [00:00:17] Hi there. Thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing. My guest today is Christopher Leinberger. Chris has had a singular career working on urban land use issues, as a strategist, teacher, developer, researcher and author.   Eve: [00:00:47] Growing up in the 1960s and 70s, Chris was actively involved in community affairs and social change issues. He learned the value of connecting coursework and theory with hands-on community engagement early on. Although he first put his business degree to work in the corporate world, Chris found he wanted to run his own organization and opted to take over management, and then ownership, of Robert Charles Lesser & Company, now RCLCo. At the time, it was a one-office, real estate consulting firm in Southern California. RCLCo became one of the largest real estate advisory firms in the U.S., with four offices nationally, by 2000. Chris's new venture is a startup – Places Platform. This is a project he audaciously hopes will become "the Bloomberg of real estate and the built environment," developing tools and methodologies to measure economic, social equity and environmental conditions in cities and metropolitan areas. Be sure to go to EvePicker.com to find out more about Chris on the show notes page for this episode. And be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform, Small Change.   Eve: [00:02:25] So, welcome to the show, Christopher. It's really nice to have you here.   Christopher Leinberger: [00:02:29] Really pleased to have a chance to chat with you.   Eve: [00:02:32] I read some of your bios, and the common theme in your development work is the one you discovered when you were eight years old, the value of well-developed, walkable urban land. And I'm wondering how that theme came to take center stage in your professional life?   Chris: [00:02:50] Well, it took me about 20 years to realize that that was what was driving me, from the age of eight – how we build our cities and why are certain blocks, certain places, vital and other places are not. And I didn't know that at age eight. But that's the basis of urban economics. But I thought that was just kind of a childhood fancy. And after business school, I went to work for two corporations and found out very quickly that I make a terrible employee and went to work with a small consulting firm in Beverly Hills, California, that I eventually bought three years later, Robert Charles Lesser and Company. And that, basically, was a firm that I could now explore how we build our cities and what makes certain places vital and others not so.   Eve: [00:03:47] And what did you discover along the way? It must have been pretty difficult setting out on this path.   Chris: [00:03:55] Well, certainly, this is back in the early 80s, and drivable suburban development was the thing in vogue. And in fact, this consulting firm, which did market studies, financial feasibility, I introduced strategic planning for both real estate companies and places, like downtowns. And I expanded the company from just a West Coast operation to a national, in fact, you know, we did a lot of work abroad, until I sold the company in 2000. It's still very active today. It's much bigger than when I was running it, back in 2000. But it was a little depressing to look at the fact that the market seemed to only want masterplanned communities and subdivisions and, you know, strip malls. And that's what we were doing in the 80s. The market studies and the financial feasibility were all about, you know, this drivable suburban stuff that we in this country invented. But then towards the end of the 80s, it really kind of started with a project I did in Downtown Chattanooga, which was a strategy for Downtown Chattanooga, the first downtown strategy I've ever done. And we pulled this strategy together with the city, with the place manager, River Valley Partners, and the county and the banking community and all sorts of ... and the great civic sector, just a remarkable civic sector. And we put together a strategy. 14 points to it. And within three years, 13 of the 14 were done.   Eve: [00:05:37] Wow.   Chris: [00:05:37] And it was off to the races. And so, I've stayed in, I've stayed involved with Downtown Chattanooga for the last 30 years. It's just been a remarkable turnaround. So, there I found that, good lord, people actually may want this walkable, urban stuff that, that really was so attractive to me when I was eight.   Eve: [00:05:55] Right. Yeah, I think I always dreamed about living above a coffee shop in a downtown.   Chris: [00:06:04] I always dreamed of living on a penthouse of a 1920s apartment building, you know, condo, co-op, whatever, and having a deck all around you and having the cage elevator take you up to it, and so ...   Eve: [00:06:21] Fabulous.   Chris: [00:06:22] Anyway, I got the cage elevator. The building I live in, it's five stories on Mass Ave, and it has the oldest elevator in town, which is a cage elevator that comes right up to our floor.   Eve: [00:06:35] How about the deck all around? No?   Chris: [00:06:38] No, didn't get that. The 'deck all around' is just about to become about 108 solar panels.   Eve: [00:06:45] Oh wow, and I got the coffee shop after about 20 years of trying so ... Just an aside, I'm especially in awe of your advisory role in Walk Score, which is a tool that I use every day, apparently with four million other people. So, that's an amazing tool that's emerged out of your interest, as well.   Chris: [00:07:06] Yes, I was on the initial board of Walk Score before, and then, of course, it was bought by Redfin, so that board went away. But I have loved the folks at Walk Score. I still use them, you know, in my research at Brookings and George Washington University. And now, in my next phase of life with Places Platform, which is my startup, that is basically Sim City for real, and Walk Score is foundational to that.   Eve: [00:07:37] So, I use it. I developed a Change Index for my crowdfunding platform, Small Change, and I use it to identify, you know, where projects are that walk in the door are located, like every day. It's a fabulous tool.   Chris: [00:07:51] It's remarkable. And the other thing that a number of us have found is that in walkable urban places, Walk Score above 60 yields tremendous value enhancement. You know, here in D.C., on the for-sale residential side, one Walk Score point above 60 yields about a 10-dollar-per-square-foot increase in value of a house or a condo.   Eve: [00:08:22] That's pretty amazing.   Chris: [00:08:22] That's huge. Places Platform just did our beta test in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So, this is a Midwestern town, small Midwestern town, not exactly a bi-coastal sort of place. And in the office market, one Walk Score point increases office valuations by a buck a square foot.   Eve: [00:08:44] Wow.   Chris: [00:08:45] And that's, again, for a town that an office sells for 180 to 200 bucks per square foot, one Walk Score point equals a one percent increase in valuation. That's pretty significant.   Eve: [00:08:58] So, I'm proud to say my Walk Score is, I think, 99.   Chris: [00:09:01] Wow, well that's impressive. My Walk Score's 92. I live within about four blocks of Dupont Circle.   Eve: [00:09:11] I live downtown in Pittsburgh, so you really, no, that's pretty simple.   Chris: [00:09:14] Yes, it's great.   Eve: [00:09:16] You know, I first became aware of your work when, when I was struggling with a capital stack for a little catalytic development project. And I heard about the Albuquerque project and 'patient money,' and those of us who do this sort of development know that it's very difficult to get traditional financing to accomplish groundbreaking projects. And I just love you to talk a little bit about how you approached that when you started that project, and, in general.   Chris: [00:09:45] It starts with an understanding that there is no such thing as new ideas. As you may have also seen or heard, my favorite urban movie is "Back to the Future," and it's the most important urban movie ever made that is popular because it shows the two ways of building: drivable sub-urban and walkable urban, in three different time periods. The 1950s, which was really a reflection of the early 20th century, 1985 when the movie came out, which showed how we completely disinvested in our downtowns and all the energy, and all the money, shifted to regional malls and business parks, and, of course, subdivisions. And then the near distant future, that again this 1980s view of the near distant future, which showed downtowns coming back. And the suburbs going into decline, and who'd have thunk that ...   Eve: [00:10:46] Yeh.   Chris: [00:10:46] ... in the 1980s. Well, that near distant future was 2015. So, these writers of the movie nailed it, and none of us in the 1980s were thinking that the cities were going to come back that quickly and that well. So, you look at how we used to finance, and much of the money in the capital stack... You know, the capital stack is going to be comprised of two basic categories – equity, you know, cash at risk, and debt, money you get from banks at very cheap interest rates. So, by definition, the equity is the risk capital and it goes in first and comes out last. And with a 'Back to the Future' financing approach, that, you've got to have 40, 50, 60 percent of your capital stack being equity, and most of that being 'patient equity.' It's not looking for an internal rate of return of 25 percent. It's going to be put in. It's going to get paid back when the project matures. You know, don't bother measuring it. Just recognize that it's there for the mid- and long-term. And if you realize that, in walkable urban real estate, you can make a bloody fortune. But you just can't make it in three to five years.   Eve: [00:12:18] But we have pretty impatient investors right now who want to make that sort of return quickly. Two years.   Chris: [00:12:25] Oh, yeah, oh yeah.   Eve: [00:12:26] That's frustrating for me with my platform, because, you know, some ... these projects that I think are so important for the future have a very hard time getting equity.   Chris: [00:12:41] So, you have to be creative, of course, and most the important thing to be creative about is making sure that the land invested in your deal is invested patiently. So, the best example... I'm in partnership with Robert Davis in my development company. Now, we're both, at this point, limited partners with our development company, which is called Arcadia Land Company, based in Center City, Philadelphia. But Robert's best known for the project, Seaside, on the panhandle of Florida. And it's the first New Urbanist project. And Robert got 80 acres from his grandfather as his inheritance on what was then known as the Redneck Riviera. This is where the country boys from Alabama would go down to the beach and drink. And Robert looked at this as a patient equity investment, and slowly but surely came up with a great urban plan, and slowly invested in the infrastructure, block by block. And he sold his first one eighth of an acre lot for ten thousand dollars. He sold his last one eighth of an acre lot for two million dollars ...   Eve: [00:14:02] Oh wow.   Chris: [00:14:02] ... 25 years later.   Eve: [00:14:04] Wow.   Chris: [00:14:04] And he still owns Downtown Seaside. It's worth a bloody fortune, with condo prices at 1,500 bucks a square foot. That's what the ancients knew how to do. And that's what the Grosvenors in London knew how to do 400 years ago. They were just, you know, farmers that happened to own this farm that became the West End of London. And they never sold the land. They just had long-term leases, and became one of the top 20 wealthiest families on the planet because they invested long-term. So, we have lots of examples, just not that many currently, as we have this 'get rich quick' mentality   Eve: [00:14:49] We really do, don't we? Interesting. What's your favorite project that you've worked on?   Chris: [00:14:56] My second project. I was still running and owning Robert Charles Lesser and Company and got hired by a Seattle family to redevelop a shipyard in Kirkland, Washington, right on Lake Washington, right across Lake Washington from Downtown Seattle. They built Liberty ships there during the Second World War. And this family also happened to own the Seattle Seahawks at the time, and they had their practice field there. And so, they asked me to figure out what to do with it. And we came up with this pretty, at that point, wacky idea of high density, mixed use, walkable urban – a new marina, office, hotel, retail around a plaza, rental apartments, condos, and from day one, decked parking, highly expensive to build, so we could get the kind of density that we needed. And the east side of the Seattle metro area, at that point, you did not charge for parking. So, this was an incredible investment with zero return as far as the parking goes. And everybody, you know, Urban Land looked at it and said, you're crazy. And I mean, even the office brokers who have no skin in the game, said this is crazy. And we came up with this set of recommendations. And the family, the Skinner family, old mine family up in Seattle, said to me, great idea! Now can you build it? And I said, holy smokes, I'm a consultant. What, do you want me to do something? So for about two years, I was the fee developer and it came out of the ground, it just ... to this day, it gets the highest office rents and rental apartment rents in the northwest of the U.S.. Because of its high density, walkable, urban nature.   Eve: [00:16:57] Wow. And you were hooked, right?   Chris: [00:17:00] Oh, yeah, I saw the power of it. It was just really impressive. And, you know, this is your ultimate doing well while doing good. And you can feel really proud of Carillon Point, which is what it's called ... because it's a long-term keeper. And I asked the family, so, you know, why do you want to do something that's, that's so unconventional from the finance point of view? And they said, well, we've been around Seattle for 100 years. Our family's going to be around for at least another 100 years. We're building with 100 year perspective.   Eve: [00:17:30] Wow. So, then what led you to launch Places Platform?   Chris: [00:17:35] This is kind of a culmination of all the work I've done, going back to age eight. You know, I mentioned earlier, it's the Sim City for real estate and place management and city management. It also could be viewed as the Bloomberg of real estate. Michael Bloomberg, with his original company that made him worth 40, 50 billion dollars, basically created a data set, a database of all the stock and bond markets back in the 70s and 80s, that ... and so on one screen in front of you, or actually two or three screens, you could understand anything about any stock or bond that was being traded on public markets worldwide. And that was a huge step forward. Well, real estate is worth about twice as much as all the publicly traded assets in this country, of all the publicly traded companies. And we are not yet at that point, but we have 100 percent database of all the real estate, we're real close, and that's what Places Platform is creating. Working with Walk Score, working with Co-Star, working with Zillow and Collateral Analytics, and a variety of other databases that are in their silos, we're bringing them all together. And we're looking at it from an economic performance point of view ...  meaning we can do gross regional product, GRP, at the place level, at the city level. At this point, we can't get GRP below the metro level, at least officially, you know, throughout the country. But Places can take it down and tell you what the GRP is of Downtown D.C.. We look at the net fiscal impact, how much does the city net at the place level? How much does Downtown D.C. make for the city of the District of Columbia? The revenues coming in from property taxes and income taxes and sales taxes and all the rest, minus the cost of services, the net fiscal impact. And these walkable urban places almost always make the bulk of the money for a city to pay for public schools, and to pay for welfare and other social benefits. And then, of course, we look at the real estate valuations for all the real estate.   Chris: [00:20:05] We also have three other metrics. One is social equity. What does it mean for somebody who is a low-income household? We also look at it from a public health point of view, and particularly with COVID. And the fourth one that we have not yet developed is, of course, environmental. So, what Places Platform is trying to do is to have a quadruple bottom line. To analyze public policy, infrastructure investment, major real estate development, and understand and quantify what the economic, social equity, public health and environmental, you know, hopefully benefits, are from those investments.   Eve: [00:20:47] Is your hope that this information will propel cities towards the right sort of development?   Chris: [00:20:57] That's it. I've come to realize in my career that there's either a downward spiral for cities or an upward spiral. And the 80s and into the 90s was the downward spiral. No matter what you did, no matter what federal program, whether it be UDAG grants or Model Cities or you name it, redevelopment, there was a downward spiral that no matter what you did, no matter how much money you spent, it would not change the downward spiral. Well, we're now in this upward spiral, with, you know, the market share gains for walkable, urban development is just through the roof, and the price premiums are two, three, four times the price per square foot of drivable suburban places. So, we have this upward spiral. And I have found that the upward spiral, if you have correct public policy, can both give you economic returns and social equity returns and public health returns and environmental returns. And this will be a measurement tool to make sure you are achieving all four of those returns. You do not have to sacrifice social equity for these economic returns.   Eve: [00:22:15] So, then I have to ask the dreaded question, do you think that COVID-19 is more than a blip on that upward spiral?   Chris: [00:22:25] To be flip? It is just a speed  bump, it is just a blip that, you know, a year or two from now we'll look back and just say, that was kind of a weird couple of years. But having said that, I'm not saying that a lot of changes are being sped up. Changes that were in place ...   Eve: [00:22:46] Compressed. Yep. Yep.   Chris: [00:22:48] The head of global research for Cushman and Wakefield asked me a couple of months ago to work with them to help figure out what's the 'future of office' in the U.S.. And so we're in the middle of that work right now, and certainly there's going to be an impact, particularly on the office market. There's going to be, in my mind, it's pretty clear, that there's going to be a repricing, i.e., a reduction in value of offices. It's going to affect different metro areas differently, and we're going to be looking at it, looking at the 30 largest metros to figure out what the impact will be in each of those 30 metros. But, like with every crisis, there's opportunity, and the opportunity, if we see a repricing and a reduction in occupancy in the office space as more people work from home, and, you know, it's not going to be 100 percent work from home. We know that. But it will be more than what we had, which is about 11 percent in 2018, according to the census, worked from home during the most recent week that that survey was conducted. It'll be higher than 11 percent.   Eve: [00:24:07] Yeh, yeh.   Chris: [00:24:07] So, those offices will experience a lot of pain. And the other thing is, that then allows that office space, which is in remarkably great locations, particularly the walkable urban space, to be recycled, probably as residential.   Eve: [00:24:28] Yeah.   Chris: [00:24:28] We are short anywhere from seven to 12 million housing units in this country. That we've not allowed the real estate development community to build. We have mandated that they could not build them. And that has created this horrendous affordable housing and homeless situation. And so a lot of those office spaces, as well as a lot of the hotels, are going to become assets that we can convert into housing in great walkable urban locations.   Eve: [00:25:03] Right, right. Aside from that are there any other current trends in real estate that you believe are most important for the future of cities?   Chris: [00:25:12] Yeah. We collectively in real estate and the built environment, you know, urbanists, in general, we really need to address, forcefully, the need to 'up-zone.' Up-zone land, and in particular, in cores and corridors. The cores are walkable urban places, both in center cities, but in particular the urbanizing suburbs. Probably 50 percent of new walkable urban development will be in urbanizing suburbs. Metro D.C. is leading the way, not just in this country, but worldwide in the urbanization of the suburbs in Arlington and, you know, downtown Bethesda, Silver Spring, Reston Town Center, National Landing, National Harbor. But it's a massive up-zoning battle ...   Eve: [00:26:07] Yeh.   Chris: [00:26:07] ... fought by NIMBYs. NIMBYs are the most pernicious force in urbanism right now, and I am quite ashamed of my generation, I'm a baby-boomer, that are leading the NIMBY charge and it's the most selfish movement ever. And they're basically saying, you can't come here. And if I stop you from coming here, my house is worth more. And it's all in the land. So, we need to flood the market with more up-zoned, walkable urban land. But it's only going to be a small percentage of total metro land. Here in D.C. only two percent of the metro area is walkable urban. That's it. Two percent. And that's where all the action is.   Eve: [00:26:55] You know, you're probably familiar with this, but over the last 10 years or so, I visit Melbourne, Australia regularly, and they up-zoned their key commercial corridors in the way you're describing. And it's been really interesting to watch it. Are you familiar with that?   Chris: [00:27:10] Very much so. I've been to Melbourne quite a bit.   Eve: [00:27:13] Yeh, yeh.   Chris: [00:27:13] You may have run into Mike Day, who's the leading urban planner in Australia, who's based there, and he has an urban planning firm that is the largest in the country. And he and I have been working together, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney. Yeh, they really need to up-zone. I mean, they obviously, you know ...   Eve: [00:27:32] Oh yeh, Melbourne is sprawling badly.   Chris: [00:27:34] Oh, god, it is horrendous. And the same with Sydney. But, you know, their downtowns are among the top five on the planet.   Eve: [00:27:43] Yeah, they're fabulous.   Chris: [00:27:44] When you get out of the downtowns, and it's just suburban hell.   Eve: [00:27:47] Not all of it. Like Melbourne has a really great train network and a wonderful bike network that really connects some of the neighborhoods around downtown, really, pretty well, which is, you know, one good thing.   Chris: [00:28:01] Well, the downtown and the downtown adjacent places are tremendous in Melbourne, as you know better than I, you know, the region of Melbourne is comprised of, like in the U.S., many, many, many jurisdictions. And so the center city is one jurisdiction, downtown and downtown adjacent. So, then all those suburban jurisdictions just don't get it ...   Eve: [00:28:27] Yeh.   Chris: [00:28:27] ...and they are beginning to get it. A lot of efforts going into it. So, I have no doubt that they're moving in the right direction.   Eve: [00:28:35] Well, a city like Melbourne, too, I think it's one of the fastest growing metros ... It's certainly the fastest growing in Australia, and ...   Chris: [00:28:42] And it's such a lovely place. It is just ...   Eve: [00:28:44] It's a lovely place.   Chris: [00:28:45] Charming as can be. Remarkable people.   Eve: [00:28:49] Ok, then, do you think equity crowdfunding can play a role in building communities for everyone? We're talking about social equity and how people can get a stake in their own community.   Chris: [00:29:02] I think it's a critically important trend. And again, it's 'Back to the Future.' This is how we used to build the great real estate. I always used to wonder back in the 80s when I was really trying to noodle through how did the ancients of the late 19th, early 20th century build these buildings that were so well built? They were over-engineered. They were architecturally significant. They were built for the ages as opposed to the junk that we were putting up in the 80s and 90s that were, you know, just slam bang, thank you, ma'am. Throw them up. Assume that in 10, 12 years they're going to become a slum, and you didn't care because you got your money out. And it was because of crowd funding. And it was local folks coming together to build, in particular, you see this with hotels that, every city needed a glamour hotel that would show off the best of that city. And all the business folks would come together and put in money to build this hotel, to demonstrate that this city has come of age. And those hotels are with us today as the grand, marvelous anchors of our downtowns. Every city throughout the country has one. But the same thing applies to much of the commercial real estate, that a lot of small investors came along and dropped in the equivalent of a thousand dollars and they owned a little piece of their community. And that did a lot of things. One is they would economically benefit from the vitality. They would walk past it and they could say to their friends, I own that building. Point of pride. That's the great thing about real estate, is that, you know, unlike software development, which is viper ... just vaporware, you can point to a stick and brick building and say, I own that. Great pride, great emotional return. And it also gives you a reason to care about and patronize your hometown. It's the ultimate doing well while doing good.   Eve: [00:31:10] Yeah, I think you've described exactly why I started a crowdfunding platform. In Pittsburgh, you know, in the neighborhood I lived in for a long time, some of my neighbors would just band together to buy a vacant house to make sure that it wouldn't fall into a slumlord's hands. And, you know, that was exactly in that era. And I was, I was pretty impressed with that. I thought it was pretty fabulous.   Chris: [00:31:36] Yeh, yeh, I've seen that kind of thing happen throughout the country. Chattanooga, again, my favorite small town, has an organization called Chattanooga Neighborhood Enterprises that has redeveloped low-income neighborhoods surrounding downtown with zero, zero displacement.   Eve: [00:31:56] Wow.   Chris: [00:31:56] And it's just remarkable. You know, there's so many great examples out there now, over the last 20, 30 years.   Eve: [00:32:04] Well, I've really, really enjoyed talking to you. And I can't wait to see how your new venture evolves. Thank you very much for joining me.   Chris: [00:32:11] It's been very good to catch up with you.   Eve: [00:32:13] Thank you. Bye.   Chris: [00:32:13] Bye. Bye.   Eve: [00:32:26] That was Chris Leinberger. His fascination with cities started at a very early age and evolved into an astounding career working on urban land issues as a strategist, teacher, developer, researcher and author. He built an enormous advisory company and then moved on to focus on development as a co-founder of the Arcadia Land Company, a progressive New Urbanist development company for which he is still a managing partner. I hope you enjoyed listening to this interview as much as I enjoyed recording it. You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access to the show notes for today's episode at my website, EvePicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities.   Eve: [00:33:20] Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And thank you, Chris, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

Jonathan is a placemaker and New Urbanist in every sense of the word with a voracious appetite for studying and learning about new methods of community and economic development from around the world. His focus remains on building vibrant communities that foster connectivity and creativity and support a thriving, healthy downtown, small business ecosystem and community.  He currently sits on the local advisory board of Leading Cities, a global leader in Smart City solutions, city diplomacy and collaboration advancing sustainability and resilient city strategies and technologies.Related links for this episode:· Patronicity· Bench Consulting· Building Boston· Jonathan on Twitter· Peers Inc (book)· Walkable City (book)· The Death and Life of Great American Cities (book)· Happy City (book)· Subdivided: City-Building in an Age of Hyper-Diversity (book)· Mike Lydon at Street Plans· Jeff Speck· Al Wilson at Beyond WallsBe sure to support this podcast by subscribing and reviewing! Visit Authentic Form & Function for more information: https://authenticff.com© 2020 Authentic Form & Function

3 Books is a completely insane and totally epic 15-year-long quest to uncover the 1000 most formative books in the world. Each chapter is hosted live and in-person at the guest's preferred location by Neil Pasricha, New York Times bestselling author of The Book of Awesome, The Happiness Equation, Two-Minute Mornings, etc. Each chapter of 3 Books uncovers and discusses the three most formative books from one of the world's most inspiring people. Sample guests include: Judy Blume, David Sedaris, Chris Anderson of TED, the founder of the world's largest feminist magazine, the world's greatest Uber driver, Pete Holmes, Angie Thomas, and Malcolm Gladwell. Each of the 333 chapters is dropped on the exact minute of every single new moon and full moon until September 1, 2031. 3 Books is an Apple "Best Of" award-winning show and 100% ad-free, commercial-free, sponsor-free, and interruption-free. For more info check out: https://www.3books.co/ Chapter Description: Where in the world are you right now? Are you in cramped apartment in a busy downtown core? Are you in a countryside farm beside a tiny general store? Or are you in a basement hotel gym in Ulaanbaatar?  And, more importantly, why in the world are you where you are? Are you chasing a career? Are you in school? Did you move for love? Does inertia have you wedged deeply into your neighborhood? Well, where ever you are, I can promise you this: by the end of Chapter 59 you won’t look at where you live the same way ever again. Why? Because my next guest is a visionary city planner and urban designer and who will guide us through the power of place and principled planning. Sidenote: Chapter 59 is our first rabbit hole chapter of 3 Books. You may recall Anne Bogel introduced us to Jeff Speck by picking his book Walkable City as one of her three most formative back in Chapter 57. She was in love with the book, I fell in love with the book, and we ended up inviting Jeff onto the show. So who is Jeff Speck? Well, he’s an internationally renowned city planner and urban designer, recognized for his research surrounding, and advocacy for, more walkable cities. He was Director of Design at the National Endowment for the Arts from 2003-2007, he was also Director of Town Planning at DPZ & Co (the founders of the  New Urbanist movement) for over 10 years and now heads up his own consulting practice, advising cities and mayors across the globe. He is a fellow at both the Congress for the New Urbanism and the American Institute of Certified Planners and has made conversations surrounding walkability mainstream via his two TED Talks viewed over 4 million times: The Walkable City and 4 Ways to Make a City More Walkable.   And as if the above planning pedigree were not enough, he is the author of several books including the aforementioned Walkable City, the top selling city planning book for the past decade, (and #832 in our Top 1000!) as well as Suburban Nation, declared by the Wall Street Journal as ‘the urbanists bible’ In this chapter we deep dive into: What is walkability and what is its true value? What is the relationship between design and well-being? What are the true costs of car ownership? How can city planning combat loneliness? How does poor planning perpetuate racism? What makes a good mayor? Jeff is a wonder brain. Humble, articulate, passionate, he’s a man on a mission. His mind has these cranks and gears that allow him to see the world with giant perspective and distill things down to simple ideas for us to absorb and reflect upon.  Are you ready? Let’s go! What You’ll Learn: What is urban planning? Where and how did urban planning go wrong in the twentieth century? What is necessary to create human-scale livable spaces? Why are many cities failing its citizens? How much is car dependency hurting us? Why is strangeness important? What is the importance of the concept of live, work, play in planning? Why is it illegal to build mixed use walkable communities to this day in the US? How has the pandemic affected how we build and think about our cities? And, of course, what are Jeff Speck’s three most formative books? You can find show notes and more information by clicking here:  https://www.3books.co/chapters/59      Leave us a voicemail. Your message may be included in a future episode: 1-833-READ-A-LOT. Sign up to receive podcast updates here: https://www.3books.co/email-list 

Meet the team behind OKC's first New Urbanist development - Developer Blair Humphreys, Director of Public Life, Ashley Terry and VP of Wheeler Home, Josh Kitchen. Join us as we talk about creating walkable, true mixed-used urban communities, intentional design and all things OKC.  Follow us:Twitter: @UUrbanismFacebook: www.facebook.com/UpbeatUrbanismPodcast/

In this first episode of our second season, I interview Steve Nygren, the founder of Serenbe—a microcosmic urban utopia set on 65,000 acres of preserved forest land, a mere 40 minutes south of Atlanta’s expanding sprawl. Yet to paint Serenbe as the latest picture of the New Urbanist movement (or as a green community, or a nature community, or an “agrihood,” as it’s been called in reference to the 25-acre organic farm the town is centered around) wouldn’t do it justice, as my family and I discovered when we called Serenbe home for two months this past summer.Here, during an epic walk in the woods, Steve and I delve into the biophilic theory underpinning Serenbe’s design—along with the journey that took him from “having it all” in Ansley Park as a successful restaurateur to a life of deep nature connection for his family and Serenbe’s burgeoning community.

Can you build a better kind of city, one that will hold its value through the ages, through sheer brute force and debt—lots of debt? This is the bet on which that the Indianapolis suburb of Carmel, Indiana has gone all-in. In this week's episode of the Strong Towns Podcast, Chuck Marohn talks about Carmel with Aaron Renn, better known to the internet as The Urbanophile. Renn is a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, where he focuses on urban, economic development, and infrastructure policy, and a Contributing Editor at its quarterly magazine City Journal. He blogs as the Urbanophile at his own site. Renn is a native of Indiana and has a longstanding interest in Carmel, and take a somewhat more rosy view of it than Chuck does. He characterizes Carmel as both a very typical and very atypical Midwestern "big square suburb"—a 6 mile by 6 mile square, to be exact, a legacy of Indiana's rural township system. It is typical in that it is known for family-friendly living, nice homes, good schools with winning sports teams. Carmel, however, is atypical in that for the last two decades or so, it has taken on over $1 billion in municipal debt—roughly $10,000 per Carmel resident—in pursuit of a high-quality built environment: arguably a New Urbanist alternative to traditional suburbia. Carmel has built roundabouts galore to handle traffic without requiring massive stroads. It has poured money into upgrading rural roads to complete street parkways, and taken full control of its own water infrastructure from Indianapolis. Perhaps most controversially, the City of Carmel has acted as a sort of master developer for a built-from-scratch downtown and civic commons, which includes such big-ticket items as a $175 million, acoustically perfect concert hall. Carmel's gamble, Renn says, is a response to the Growth Ponzi Scheme that Strong Towns diagnoses, in which suburbs lose their allure after a generation, wealthy residents skip town for the next suburb out, and those older suburbs find themselves unable to pay for infrastructure maintenance and services. But rather than adopt the Strong Towns approach of incremental development, Carmel has gone the opposite direction. Renn summarizes the Carmel mindset: "We are actually going to invest into producing actual high-quality, urban amenities, infrastructure, etc. while we are in our growth phase, so that when we are complete, we have an essentially unreplicable environment that will retain its allure in a way that these earlier generations [of suburbia] didn't." Carmel's bid is to permanently be a premier suburb of Indianapolis, and to offer the amenities that can attract a surgeon, a high-powered attorney, or an executive at a company like Eli Lilly. It is to be a place that can compete with the lifestyle offered by upscale enclaves in coastal cities. Marohn responds to this with a wariness about debt and a question about who or what puts the brakes on human hubris. Carmel is implementing today's best practices du jour at a full-throttle pace, but, Marohn asks, what about the planners who looked at 1920s Detroit and said, "Cities have been bad places for a long time. There've been tenements and congestion... We've got this figured out. We need to put highways through here, and tear down buildings to open things up." Weren't they, in undertaking—aggressively—the first generation of the suburban experiment, also saying, "We know how to design a higher-quality living environment. We just have to do it"? Strong Towns is rooted, in large part, in a deep skepticism that any individual is capable of knowing what will be resilient 20, or 40, or 100 years from now." Renn is not as concerned about Carmel's ability to sustain its debt levels, arguing that in many cases the city has simply foregrounded things that would be hidden, unfunded liabilities in other places. But he does agree with Chuck that a valid criticism of Carmel, above and beyond the question of debt, is its inorganic nature. The city is not the product of thousands of natural experiments as developers see what works and do more of it, but rather of a tightly controlled vision of what the community will be at its finished, built-out state. Can Carmel realize that vision? Or will it go off the rails, due to changing local politics, a decreasing appetite for big municipal debt, or unforeseen economic or cultural factors? "That place has not given itself any alternative path, if this proves not to be the right one," says Marohn. There's a lot to like about Carmel's urban design choices, especially vis-a-vis other suburbs in the Indianapolis region, but Marohn says he cannot help but feel that the city is headed for a binary outcome: either really good, or really disastrous. Listen to the episode for a lot more insights about one of America's more ambitious experiments in local government and planning. What do you think of Carmel? Let us know in the comments.

This is our sixth dispatch from the Congress for the New Urbanism (CNU), which took place in Savannah, Georgia in May. Chuck Marohn attended CNU and hosted a series of in-depth podcast conversations about some of the most pressing topics for cities today, with leaders, thinkers, and activists in a whole range of fields. Now we're bringing those podcasts to your ears throughout the summer. In this episode, Susan Henderson (principal and director of design at Placemakers), Hazel Borys (principal and managing director at Placemakers), and Marina Khoury (architect and a partner at Duany Plater-Zyberk & Company) discuss the challenges of engaging with client communities for the successful implementation of New Urbanist innovations such as form-based zoning codes. Questions discussed in this podcast include:   How do you go about engaging with communities around a vision, so that when you get to the stage of implementing policy, you're confident that you've got the vision right? Are we doing visioning well when it comes to New Urbanist ideas, and getting the communities we work in on board with those ideas? How do you get a more representative cross-section of the community engaged in the planning process? How is public engagement different in affluent communities versus those facing more socioeconomic challenges? What are the cues, when you walk in the door, that tell you whether a place is going to be receptive to change? How do you deal with local staff that have limited capacity or interest in working with you? How do you overcome an internal roadblock, when your proposal gets to that one person in the bureaucracy who can derail it? How do you start the conversation with elected officials who aren't receptive to your ideas? How do you deal with things that are outside the scope of what you can solve? Zoning has come in for a lot of criticism lately from multiple corners of society. How can zoning be a tool for constructive change? Why is the change from a use-based code to a form-based code such a dramatic shift? What are the highest priority changes you urge client communities to implement? Do you prefer to do full citywide code rewrites, or improve a city's zoning code through more incremental steps? How do you deal with the backlash to a policy that has been too successful and resulted in changes that spur community opposition? How would you respond to the critique that you can't legislate quality development or architecture? How is capacity building part of what you do, beyond a normal consultant relationship? What do you do to share the lessons you've learned?

On Changing Denver this month, we bring you the story of Stapleton, the would-be New Urbanist paradise, and its upsetting connection to the Ku Klux Klan.  - Recommended Reading If you want to learn more about the business side of Stapleton, Paul has covered related subjects a couple times for Crain's Denver: From the Block: Thriving neighborhood rises from grounded Stapleton Stanley Marketplace readies for takeoff in Aurora For another take on Stapleton and New Urbanism, here's a worthy article from CityLab about street design. And here's a link to the Green Book and one to Forest City's Stapleton website. - Our theme song is "Minnow" by Felix Fast4ward. The other songs heard in this episode are "Storm" by Sam Glover and a selection of tracks by Kai Engel that we found on WFMU's Free Music Archive.  - You can find us on Twitter @ChangingDenver and sign up for our newsletter at www.changingdenver.com/about.  Thanks for listening!

This episode’s featured interview is with transportation expert and urbanist Taras Grescoe, author of Straphanger: Saving Our Cities and Ourselves from the Automobile. Taras writes: “In the 20th century, our greatest cities were almost ruined by the automobile. Only a global revolution in transportation can bring them back from the brink.” He consults on these matters and reports from cities around world from, Paris, to Moscow, Shanghai, Tokyo, Bogota, Vancouver, Phoenix. Taras Grescoe lives in Montreal. It’s a pleasure to welcome him to the podcast. This episode also features a mini-yak with my old podcast sidekick Duncan Crary. Duncan has been working tirelessly, and making great strides, in promoting an urban Renaissance in the small upstate city of Troy, N.Y., where he lives. This March 30 & 31, 2017 he will be offering a New Urbanist-themed two-day class on “The Art of Small City PR & Spectacle,” at a school in Manhattan. For more information, visit his website: DuncanCrary.com  

Chuck and Rachel discuss the problem with the American highway system, plus a recent trip to the New Urbanist development of Carlton Landing, OK. Also included in this podcast: An announcement about the new Strong Towns book club, a welcome for new members and a small request.

Jonathan Coppage and Benjamin Schwarz of the American Conservative talk about their publication, how they got involved in New Urbanism and why conservatives are embracing New Urbanist approaches.

Planning and Zoning News Podcast - Episode 10 Articles Marijuana Zoning Bylaw Ready for Vote Dallas Is Trying to Not Kill Sidewalk Cafes, But Old Habits Are Hard to Break Seattle Agrees to Lower Height Limits of New Houses on Small Lots Urban Kchoze (Zoning in Japan) Bradenton Code is Textbook for New Urbanist Movement

#247 -- Celebrating the 20thth anniversary of the publication of The Geography of Nowhere (and release for the first time of an E-book edition), JHK yaks with New Urbanist Andres Duany about the campaign to create more walkable communities and places worth caring about. Duany came to the USA as a child from Cuba in the late 1950s. He got his architecture degrees from Princeton and Yale. He formed the firm DPZ in Miami with his wife Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk and together they produced the most iconic projects of the New Urbanism (Seaside, Florida, and many others) as well as leading a movement to reform the suburban fiasco and all its governing regulations. The KunstlerCast music is “Adam and Ali’s Waltz” from the recording Waiting to Fly by Mike and Ali Vass.

JHK and Duncan speak to a group of NextGen New Urbanists during the Congress for the New Urbanism held in West Palm Beach, Fla. this May 9-12. NextGen New Urbanists are young professionals participating in the New Urbanist movement. Jim asks the group to tell him what they're up to and what's next for New Urbanism. After a quick history of the NextGen movement, topics include: Resettle America, the Braddock PA Initiative, Tactical New Urbanism, Growing Culture and more.

James Howard Kunstler joins other prominent New Urbanist writers on a recent panel at The Congress for The New Urbanism, held in West Palm Beach, Florida this May 9-12, 2012. Featuring: Chuck Bohl, Peter Katz, Philip Langdon, and Charles Marohn.

JHK continues his critique of Charles Waldheim's presentation on Landscape Urbanism, delivered at the Congress for the New Urbanism (CNU 19). This episode also includes remarks by New Urbanist leader Andres Duany and a listener quesion from a conferencegoer.

In the first of many installments to come, Duncan updates James Howard Kunstler on the recent Congress For the New Urbanism, held June 1-6, 2011 in Madison, Wisc. The Congress for the New Urbanism is a professional association of planners, architects, developers, political leaders and activists who are committed to revitalizing cities and curb the continuation of sprawl. During this show, we hear from: Andres Duany, New Urbanist architec; Ed Glaeser, Harvard economist & author; U.S. Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-OR; Paul Soglin, mayor of Madison, Wisc.; Paul Minett, Ridesharing Institute; Will Allen, Wisconsin farmer and founder of Growing Power; Charles Waldheim, Harvard professor and leader of the Landscape Urbanism movement; and Stefanos Polyzoides, New Urbanist architect. JHK reacts to some short sound bites regarding Landscape Urbanism, skyscraper cities and the development of New Urbanism.

On today's episode JHK discusses a recent poll by the National Realtors Association which found that while many Americans claim they want to be able to walk to stores, restaurants and other urban amenities, they prefer to live in single family detached homes above all else. This seems to be a contradiction, but the arrangement could be possible through New Urbanist planning. Sponsor: http://cnu19.org

James Howard Kunstler is back from a visit to the American South. He reports on two New Urbanist developments outside of Montgomery, Alabama. In many ways Kunstler believes that the new urbanist model of building 400-acre “traditional neighborhoods” out in the green fields of suburbia is over. He explains the relationship between new urbanism, suburbanism and just plain old urbanism. Kunstler’s journey also took him to revisit Seaside, Florida, one of the most famous new urbanist projects produced by Andres Duany and Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk. Many people criticize Seaside for being elite and artificial. But Kunstler says Seaside will probably feel more authentic as it ages naturally. Released: Feb. 12, 2009.