Podcasts about anxious lawyer

  If you feel burnt out, here's how to use mindfulness to reconnect with yourself and set healthy boundaries.  In this episode with Jeena, we discuss:   - How pausing can allow us to reconnect with ourselves and find clarity. - What we can do to allow things to unfold at a natural pace and give us clues on the next steps to take in our lives and career.   - Why having a mindfulness practice can allow us to have a more expansive view of our lives.  - How we can honor the grieving process of life and career changes with tenderness.    - What we can do to be intentional about our priorities and set healthy boundaries.  - What we can do to stay grounded when facing historical trauma, generational trauma, personal trauma, and collective trauma like racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination.   - How you can live with integrity and raise your voice even when the system is built against you.   Connect with Jeena at jeenacho.com or www.linkedin.com/in/jeenacho.  Connect with Samorn at www.linkedin.com/in/samornselim.  Get a copy of Samorn's book, “Belonging: Self Love Lessons From A Workaholic Depressed Insomniac Lawyer” at https://tinyurl.com/swpc578c. Get weekly career tips by signing up for our newsletter at www.careerunicorns.com.

Being a trial lawyer is a challenging job even apart from the actual, technical work of lawyering in the courtroom. Legal advocacy often places emotional burdens upon trial attorneys that can be a lot to manage. Henry Su joins the podcast to dissect the various stressors associated with trial work and offers his insights into managing stress through mindfulness.Topics3:27   Occupational hazards of being a trial lawyer 10:09 Toll of adversarial work14:11 Basic obligations to the client16:13 Managing when conflicted19:33 Role of fear26:07 Mindfulness training30:45 Learning from critiques32:49 Developing distress hardiness37:15 “Goblin mode”39:27 Managing electronic intrusions42:13 Resources on wellnessQuote“You want to create distance. What you also want to do is to avoid is dissonance. Dissonance is when you allow the work that you're doing to kind of infect you, such that you have internal conflict. You're torn up about it. You're torn up about why you're doing this, and that this is not ‘you' and that these aren't the values that you hold dear. You want to avoid dissonance, you want to maintain distance.” Henry Su ResourcesHenry Su (bio)Stress Hardiness and Lawyers (article)Integrating Mindfulness Theory into Trial Advocacy (article)Institute for Well-Being in Law (website)The Anxious Lawyer (book)Motion Skills: Online (April, August)Deposition Skills: Online (November)

Calming anxiety is easier than you might think. A few things you need to know: 1. Anxiety is normal. There's nothing wrong with you. We simply weren't given coping skills for it. 2. Anxiety is nothing to be afraid of. When we attempt to push through or avoid it, we can actually make it worse. 3. What us high-achieving/over-achieving lawyers tend to call anxiety is a general term. Most of the time what we experience as anxiety has a layer underneath it. There's another feeling your body feels, but anxiety is like wallpaper covering a wall to hide what's underneath. When we peel back the wallpaper, we can see what really lies beneath. That's when we can start calming anxiety. Today you'll: uncover what's underneath some anxiety you feel get steps to help you feel better hear real-life stories of how lawyers overcame anxiety After you listen to this episode, you'll have the skills to calm your anxiety. When you do, you'll discover you're capable of so much more than you know both in your life and in your law practice. RESOURCES Busy Lawyer's Guide Show notes CONNECT WITH ME On Instagram @dina.cataldo On LinkedIn WORK WITH ME When you're ready to start implementing what you're learning in this podcast, book a call with me. Book a call here. If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It takes less than 90 seconds, and it really helps spread the word about this podcast.

Jeena Cho is a Legal Mindfulness Consultant and Coach. Prior to becoming a fulltime mindfulness coach in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, Jeena was an Assistant State Attorney at the Hillsborough County State Attorney's Office and a longtime partner at JC Law Group PC, where she practiced bankruptcy law in California. Jeena is co-author of The Anxious Lawyer - an 8 Week Guide to a Joyful and Satisfying Law Practice. She also frequently contributes to publications such as Forbes, Bloombreg BNA, and Above the Law, where she shares her views, perspective, and tips on mindfulness, meditation, and so much more. Jenna graduated from the University of Buffalo in 2000 and the University of Buffalo School of Law in 2003.Connect with Jeena on LinkedIn.Follow Jeena on Twitter.Learn more about and purchase your copy of The Anxious Lawyer: An 8-Week Guide to a Happier, Saner Law Practice Using Meditation by Jeena Cho and Karen Gifford.Try Jeena's meditation that we shared with you in the Due Diligence portion of the Episode HERE. Learn more about Jeena Cho, her work and how she may be able to help you and/or your organization develop a mindfulness practice by checking out Jeena's website.  Find us online at https://www.personaljxpod.comFind us on Twitter @PersonalJxPodPersonal Jurisdiction is powered and distributed with Simplecast. We use Riverside.FM to record our episodes. Our logos were designed by Lizzie L. O'Connor.Personal Jurisdiction is edited by Scott Donnell at Run and Drum Media https://www.runanddrummedia.comOur Theme Song is Pleasant Porridge by Kevin MacLeod.Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/7614-pleasant-porridgeLicense: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

In recognition of Well-Being Week in Law, we are bringing you our interview with Jeena Cho, a pioneer in the area of mental health and wellness for lawyers. Long before the nonstop stressors of the last two years, Jeena Cho was a vocal advocate for the well-being of lawyers. It started when she realized how meditation and mindfulness could help her deal with the stress of practicing bankruptcy law. Since that time, her message about the urgency of wellness for lawyers has resonated throughout the industry, thanks in large part to her best-selling book, The Anxious Lawyer. She is a regular contributor to legal and traditional media, and she also speaks and offers training and workshops to law firms and bar associations around the country. Listen in to today's conversation to learn about: - Jeena's journey to law—which was inspired by a long-running TV show. - How her meditation practice started. - When she realized mindfulness had broader application to the well-being issues facing legal professionals, and how it can make the profession more inclusive.

Long before the nonstop stressors of the last two years, Jeena Cho was a vocal advocate for the well-being of lawyers. It started when she realized how meditation and mindfulness could help her deal with the stress of practicing bankruptcy law. Since that time, her message about the urgency of wellness for lawyers has resonated throughout the industry, thanks in large part to her best-selling book, The Anxious Lawyer. She is a regular contributor to legal and traditional media, and she also speaks and offers training and workshops to law firms and bar associations around the country. Listen in to today's conversation to learn about: - Jeena's journey to law—which was inspired by a long-running TV show. - How her meditation practice started. - When she realized mindfulness had broader application to the well-being issues facing legal professionals, and how it can make the profession more inclusive.

In this episode I talk with Jeena Cho, author of The Anxious Lawyer: An 8-Week Guide to a Happier, Saner Law Practice Using Meditation. L'article Episode 39 : The Anxious Lawyer est apparu en premier sur Rivercast Media.

In this episode I talk with Jeena Cho, author of The Anxious Lawyer: An 8-Week Guide to a Happier, Saner Law Practice Using Meditation. L'article Episode 39 : The Anxious Lawyer est apparu en premier sur Rivercast Media.

Meditation could be a helpful tool for lawyers struggling with crippling stress and anxiety, but most are intimidated by the idea or don't know where to start. In this episode of The Florida Bar Podcast from the 2018 Annual Florida Bar Convention, host Christine Bilbrey talks to Jeena Cho about how meditation helped her with her stress and how other attorneys can implement it in their practice. She ends the episode with a two minute meditation practice for those who want to see what typical meditation feels like. Jeena Cho is the author of two books: The Anxious Lawyer, An 8-Week Guide to a Joyful and Satisfying Law Practice Through Mindfulness and Meditation, and How to Manage Your Law Office.

On this week's episode of the 10 Minute Law Firm Podcast, Nefra MacDonald reprises her role as host to interview Jeena Cho, lawyer and co-author of The Anxious Lawyer, An 8-Week Guide to a Joyful and Satisfying Law Practice Through Mindfulness and Meditation (ABA). In addition to speaking about her session at this year's upcoming Legal Wellness… Read More »Ep 41: Mindfulness for Lawyers with Jeena Cho The post Ep 41: Mindfulness for Lawyers with Jeena Cho appeared first on Rocket Matter.

In this episode, I read an article I recently wrote for the American Bar Association. They put out a call for lawyers that come from an underprivileged background to share their "My Path to Law" Story, so I thought this would be a perfect time to share my story in terms of how I went from being an immigrant from Korea at the age of 10 to being a lawyer.   My Path to Law: Finding Meaning and Purpose I watched a lot of Law & Order growing up. My family immigrated to the U.S. in 1988 (the same year that Korea last hosted the Olympics). I was 10 years old and didn't speak a word of English. Neither did anyone else in my family. As I watched, I repeated the phrases the lawyers said on the show, trying to learn the words, the intonation, the meaning. When we moved to the U.S., we settled in Astoria, New York, where my grandparents owned a grocery store. My dad went from being an architect at Samsung to working seven days a week at the grocery store. My mom had been an art teacher; in New York, she worked at a nail salon. Here's the thing. When you're an immigrant in a country where you don't speak the language, where you aren't familiar with its rules and laws, you get taken advantage of. We moved into an apartment with no hot water but plenty of cockroaches and rats. We didn't know for years that you can report the landlord to housing agencies. I still remember waking up in the middle of the night, screaming, terrified because a rat ran across my torso. Once I found a cockroach in a bowl of soup. Eventually, my dad bought a laundromat. More than once, customers threatened to sue him for some claimed loss or damage to their clothing. He usually paid them because he didn't understand how the legal system worked. I knew from watching Law & Order that there were rules in this country designed to protect the innocent, punish wrongdoers and restore justice. I loved the show. In 60 minutes, bad people were always prosecuted and justice served. To my naive 12-year-old self, this was obviously my path: Go to law school. Become a prosecutor. Send bad guys to jail. Protect the innocent. As a sophomore in high school, I decided I was going away for college, but my parents were very traditional and didn't approve. They often said that the only way I was allowed to leave the house was if I were (1) married or (2) dead. Neither option appealed to me. I saved every dollar I could from my job as a cashier at Boston Market and applied for colleges out of town. I faked their signatures on the applications, completed all the financial aid forms, and got into University at Buffalo (SUNY Buffalo) 420 miles away with a full scholarship. Once it was clear that I wouldn't need their permission or financial support, I "ran away" to college. I was 17 years old. I didn't speak to my parents for a long time after that. As an immigrant working menial jobs, you often feel unseen and unrecognized. I'll never forget the summer I worked in my mom's nail salon. She told a customer (very proudly) that I had just graduated from college. The woman looked at me as if seeing me for the first time (while I was washing her feet), and said very sweetly, "Well, isn't that nice. So, will you be working here then?" Stunned, I paused and responded that I was there for the summer but was starting law school in the fall. Her facial expression changed and she responded, "Well, good for you." I graduated from law school at 24 and got my dream job as an assistant state attorney in Florida. There I learned that one privilege of having that role is seeing images we'll never be able to unsee and hearing stories we'll never be able to unhear. I was assigned to the domestic violence unit, where I learned that our criminal "justice" system is a terrible mechanism for helping people. Later, I was assigned to misdemeanors court. The first day was arraignment day. The judge, through a Spanish-speaking interpreter, asked everyone who was there for driving without a valid license to move into the jury box. A group of about 30 men stood and walked over. There were too many of them for the jury box, so they huddled around it. They looked tired, with leathered skin from working in the fields all day, their hands and fingers swollen. The judge had the interpreter tell them his rule. "The first time you're caught, it's a fine. Second time, it's 10 days in jail. Third time, 364 days." For comparison, a third-time DUI carried with it a minimum mandatory sentence of 30 days. One by one, the men were asked to plead. Those that pled guilty were sentenced according to the judge's rule. Often the defendants didn't understand the consequences of pleading guilty, and more than once would start wailing when they were taken straight from arraignment to jail. Those that didn't plead were assigned a public defender and set for trial. This was deeply traumatizing. Although I was in the U.S. legally, I could see myself, my family in the faces and stories of these workers. Bryan Stevenson asks in his book Just Mercy, "Why do we want to kill all the broken people?" I didn't try capital cases, but his question resonates with me. As an assistant state attorney, I saw how we want to lock away, criminalize and shun people who are broken. Like most state attorneys' offices, we were overworked (I had over 250 cases) and there was no time. No time to sit down and figure out how to help people. No time to consider what would be a just outcome. I was burning out, desperately trying to keep my head above water, and having regular nightmares of seeing my parents in the jury box - nightmares of their being taken away from me for 364 days. I needed a change. So, I moved from Tampa to the San Francisco Bay Area. I met my husband, Jeff Curl, who is also a lawyer, and we started a bankruptcy practice. This was the perfect practice area for me (even though it doesn't make me very popular at cocktail parties). I get to help people who are experiencing financial trauma and give them a fresh start. It is healing and restorative. The first bankruptcy case I ever filed was for a very sweet 69-year-old immigrant. He was HIV-positive and struggling with bipolar depression. After the meeting of creditors, we hugged and he cried. I started practicing mindfulness and meditation in 2011 after being diagnosed with social anxiety disorder. This eventually led to co-authoring a book with Karen Gifford for ABA Publishing, The Anxious Lawyer. Here's what I know. While my 12-year-old self's understanding of how our justice system works was flawed and naive, what I've retained is the deep desire to make a difference, to create a better world, and to live with compassion. As Rainer Maria Rilke writes in his book Letters to a Young Poet, "The point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer." Every day, I live with the question: "What would be the most kind, generous and compassionate response?" I am practicing living into the answer. This article was first published in the ABA Journal, My path to law: one immigrant's journey. You can also find the related blog post from www.JeenaCho.com here.   Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Harvey Freedenberg on to talk about how a daily meditation practice can revolutionize how you perceive the world and potentially help your firm. Harvey Freedenberg is Firm Counsel at the law firm of McNees Wallace & Nurick LLC, a firm of approximately 135 lawyers in Harrisburg, PA. He will soon be retiring after 40 years of practice that included insurance defense, general commercial and intellectual property litigation. Since August 2015, he's been engaged in a daily mindfulness meditation practice. He's participated in a week-long retreat with Jon Kabat-Zinn at the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies, and has completed an eight-week Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Course. Topics Covered Harvey goes into both how he found himself practicing meditation daily and the benefits of his retreat and the MBSR course he is completing. How he went about introducing his firm to his meditation practice and how they received it. What the benefits that lawyers can see personally, professionally, and health-wise are when they adopt a consistent meditation practice. He also dives into his past work in loss-prevention work for his firm and how a healthy meditation practice could help curb incidents in firms. Harvey talks about resources he would recommend to lawyers who want to start meditating or improve their meditation practice. For more information on Harvey, find him at: Twitter: @HarvF Sources mentioned: https://www.headspace.com/   Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book ? Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Harvey Freedenberg: [00:00:01] There's really no separation between what you're experiencing sitting on the cushion or on a chair, and the experience that you might have stopped at a traffic light or talking to a colleague about a case, or dealing with a family member. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am so happy to have Harvey Freedenberg, who is the firm counsel at the law firm of McNees Wallace and Nurick, which has approximately 135 lawyers, in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. He will soon be retiring after 40 years of practice that included insurance defense, general, commercial, and intellectual property litigation. Since August 2015 he has been engaged in daily mindfulness meditation practice. He's participated in a week-long retreat with Jon Kabat-Zinn, I am totally jealous by the way, at the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies and has completed an eight-week Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Course. We have lots of things in common and to talk about, so I'm really excited. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:01:30] Thank you, and I'm happy to be here. It's really a pleasure when we've interacted on social media. But this will be the first time we'll have a chance to chat so I'm looking forward to it. Jeena Cho: [00:01:37] Yeah, thank you so much. So I'm curious, what led you down this path of practicing mindfulness? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:01:46] Well it was something that I had dabbled with years ago, and didn't really have any kind of understanding how to go about it. I would say it was probably in the 1990's, and I was one of those people who tried it a few times and thought that the goal was to make my mind blank. And when I couldn't do that I sort of put it aside. So as you said, a little over two years ago in August of 2015 I had just read an article in The New Yorker magazine about the Headspace app. And reading that coincided with a period in which I had a couple of cases that were causing me quite a bit of angst, shall we say. And I thought, you know I'm going to give this meditation a try, to see if I can turn to this to perhaps relieve some of the stress I was feeling from this litigation; it was a couple of particularly contentious cases. So I downloaded the app, which offers 10 free ten-minute sessions, and I have to say I was pretty much hooked from the first session. I gained a pretty quick understanding of how the process of meditation was supposed to work, with the guidance of Andy Puddicombe, who was the one of the founders of Headspace. And the timing was right and it just clicked for me. And I've continued as you said on a daily basis since that time, which was late August of 2015. So it's now been about 27 months. Jeena Cho: [00:03:23] Yeah, I want to also give a shout out to Headspace. It's such a wonderful program, and I think what it's really excellent at doing is making it a part up your daily diet, just like brushing your teeth. And I think the way that Andy guides you through the process and really explains what meditation is all about, because I think so often there is that misconception that meditation means that we sit quietly and that our mind goes blank. And then when of course that doesn't happen and there's lots of thoughts and sometimes very distressing thoughts, then we become discouraged and say I'm not doing this correctly. And of course as lawyers we are very much focused on doing things correctly. Now I'm using my air quotation marks here. So I am a huge fan of Headspace. Do you still use it? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:04:11] Yes, I still use it. I have been through all the packs as they call them, which are basically structured courses that run either 10 days or 30 days around a given topic. So for example, there's one on stress, there's one on anxiety. There are a number that they started last or I guess earlier this year on various sports and fitness activities. And you work through those on a day-by-day basis and they are all organized around that theme. So yeah, I'm finding that very useful. And I've branched out into other guided, unguided meditation. As you mentioned, I've been to a retreat, which I'm happy to talk more about. [00:05:00] But that was really the door that opened it for me, and since that time I've recommended it to a number of attorneys in our office. My brother has become an avid meditator as a result of my telling him about it. So it's something that I think is a good entryway for people who might be on the skeptical side about whether or not they can meditate. Jeena Cho: [00:05:25] Yeah I think it is a really great doorway for entering into your own mind, which is what meditation is all about. Did that happen before or after you took the MBSR course? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:05:43] The retreat was before, I'm actually just finishing up the MBSR course right now. That sort of grew out of the retreat. I decided I would say after about a year or so that I wanted to have a retreat experience, and I was familiar with the Omega Institute from a couple of friends of mine who had attended other programs there. It's located about a four hour drive from Harrisburg, so it was very convenient. And I had read a couple of Jon Kabat-Zinn's books, "Wherever You Go, There You Are," "Coming to Our Senses." And if I have ever anyone who I consider a sort of meditation and mindfulness mentor, I would say he would have to be that person. So when I saw there was an opportunity to study with him and with his son, I jumped at it. So by the time I got to the retreat, which was in May of 2017, I had about 21 months of daily meditation. [00:06:50] So I considered myself a fairly experienced meditator. It was when I when I got to the retreat (this was not a silent retreat by the way, although significant portions of it were silent, so during periods at meals or when we were not actually engaged in practice) I talked to a number of people who had been through the MBSR, the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction course, and that got me interested in taking the course. And I found that there was an instructor here in Harrisburg that was offering that course, so it was convenient for me to take it and I started in October this year. [00:07:28] So the retreat was just a way of I thought deepening and strengthening my practice, and it was it was quite valuable. It was a different experience from sitting down and meditating 15 or 20 minutes first thing in the morning, which is the typical practice that I have. We were meditating from 6 a.m. or 6:30 a.m. until about 9 in evening, with breaks of course. There was yoga, there was both sitting and walking meditation. There were discussions in the group, so it was a pretty intensive experience. Again, not as intensive as a silent retreat, but certainly something that gave me more of a foundation in a meditation practice. Jeena Cho: [00:08:20] Yeah. What did you learn or when I say what did you get out of the retreat I don't mean you go to get something out of it. But what did you realize, what did you learn about yourself, or what insights did you gain? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:08:37] Yes that's striving, if you're going to get something out of it you're striving, which was something we were cautioned against. Well I think that is the largest takeaway I got from that retreat was that meditation is really about life. That as John repeatedly said, "You're not here to learn how to do some trick or to operationalize a technique." It's so much more than that, and that everything that's happening in that retreat experience and of course you hope when you walk out of it and come back to your daily life, is part of a mindfulness practice. [00:09:32] And there's really no separation between what you're experiencing sitting on the cushion or on a chair and the experience that you might have stopped at a traffic light, or talking to a colleague about a case, or dealing with a family member. So it's kind of a seamless integration. I would say that was the strongest takeaway that I took from that experience. Jeena Cho: [00:09:58] Yeah, what a delightful realization that mindfulness is not something that you do here, and then there's the rest of your life; that it's really an integrated experience. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:10:13] Right. And that's one of the biggest challenges, is to take the experience that you're having, of sitting in silence and watching your thoughts, of not reacting to them, letting thoughts go as they're going through your mind, focusing on your breath; that's the kind of meditation and I'm doing. Translating that experience into your daily life when you get up out of the chair and you have to go to work or some other activity, that you need to have those reminders that this should be seamlessly integrated with your life. Jeena Cho: [00:10:58] Yeah, definitely. Have you tried to take this work or this practice to your law firm, and if you did how was it received? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:11:07] I did. I have, and I've been very pleased with the results. There's a little bit of a backstory that. Your book has something to do with that, "The Anxious Lawyer" which I was very excited about. I don't remember when I first read about it, but I remember I was meditating at the time, and as soon as I saw this book was coming out I placed my order for it. So I had it on the day it was published, and I read it very avidly. And I recall you and Karen Gifford, your co-author, did a series of webinars, I think it was in conjunction with the National Association of Women Lawyers, I think that was the name of the organization, right? So I participated in those, I think that was in the fall of 2016. And one of the nice benefits was that you kindly gave everybody who was in the seminar two copies of the book. So I had the copy I purchased, and I thought you know this would be a good introduction to mindfulness meditation to lawyers in the firm. So I sent out a firm-wide e-mail and I said, I have two copies of this book and I included a link to the Amazon description so they could read a little more about it. I said I'll raffle these off, send me an e-mail if you're interested. We have about 135 lawyers at our firm, I think 30 lawyers responded; roughly a quarter of the firm. And I raffled them off and I thought, well there's some interest here. [00:12:53] And sort of on a parallel track with that, again this was in 2016. One of the things that I do as part of my responsibility as firm council is to attend an annual meeting that our malpractice insurance company holds every June, because part of my duty is lost prevention. So I handle the ethics issues and I also deal with preventing claims against the firm and if necessary, defend those claims. And there were a couple of things that happened at that meeting. One was a gentleman named Patrick Krill, who you might be familiar with. Jeena Cho: [00:13:35] Yeah, I do know him. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:13:36] Who was the organizer of the study co-sponsored by the American Bar Association and the Hazelden Foundation on mental health in the legal profession, presented the findings of his study. And they were quite alarming. And I don't think it's an exaggeration to use that term. Jeena Cho: [00:14:00] No, definitely not. The results were that basically a third of the lawyers in our profession are suffering from depression, stress, anxiety, and very, very heavy rates of problematic drinking. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:14:12] Right, and probably some drug addiction thrown in there, which I think he said was under-reported. So that was sort of another piece of the puzzle. And then third was some discussion about a trend in the in the professional liability field, that insurers were starting to see a spike in claims arising from mistakes that were the kinds of things that good lawyers generally don't find themselves getting in trouble for. That is, conflicts of interest and other problems are more the source of malpractice claims. [00:15:02] And so there was some discussion about what might be driving this. And some of the concerns surrounding technology, the pace of legal practice. The fact that we're basically on 24/7 because I can turn on my smartphone at 11:00 on a Sunday night and find an e-mail from a client. And so with that information, I went back to the firm and I thought about this some more and I said, this is something.. all the issues that are being talked about here, whether it's the issues relating to mental health or problems in practice that might contribute to mistakes, are the kinds of things that I think meditation and mindfulness potentially can be helpful in addressing. Jeena Cho: [00:15:53] Right. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:15:54] So for several years I was the chair of a committee we have at our firm called the professional and personal development committee, which in part focuses on life issues. In addition to things that will benefit attorney's practices, but we put a lot of emphasis on wellness at our firm, on making sure that people stay physically and mentally healthy. And I thought this was a program that the committee might be interested in, and I pointed out that I had 30 lawyers who said they were interested in getting a copy of your book. Jeena Cho: [00:16:32] Yeah, so you had a little bit of data. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:16:35] Yeah, so they eagerly embraced the idea and we agreed on a time to do it. So it was about two months ago that I did a lunchtime presentation. I think we had 25 people sign up for it. Our main office is in Harrisburg and we have several regional offices around the state and elsewhere, and a few people called in, several other people e-mailed me and said they were sorry they could not attend because they had a scheduling conflict, so we had about 20 people in the room. I did about a one-hour presentation, which included a brief guided meditation. Five minutes or so, I didn't want to do it any longer than that. And I got a great response. I know of at least one or two people who at least said they have continued to try to meditate since that time. So I think it was a really good introduction to the practice. [00:17:40] So that's how I brought it to our firm, and I think it's certainly something that lawyers generally should be introduced to and will benefit from. Jeena Cho: [00:17:51] Yeah, which leads me perfectly to my next question, which is what are those benefits that you think lawyers can gain from practicing mindfulness? In your own life or in your own law practice, what type of benefits have you seen? And what are sort of the practical implications for other lawyers? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:18:14] Well I have to break this down into two parts. I sort of joke about the first part of this, which is I wish I had discovered this oh I don't know, 25 years ago when I was a busy litigator. By the time I started meditating, I was definitely in the winding-down phase of my active litigation process. But I know enough of it, and I certainly can reflect enough on my experience as a litigator, that first as a way of relieving the inevitable stress that comes with a busy litigation practice. It gives you an opportunity to have something to turn to when that stress intensifies. And I think it certainly is beneficial, I can think of occasions when I was in a difficult courtroom battle or in a deposition with a particularly unpleasant lawyer on the other side, that being able to have the mental space that I think meditation creates would have been very helpful to me. So I think it's an extremely practical tool that a lot of lawyers would benefit from if they could incorporate that into their practice. [00:19:40] So that's the one piece. The other piece is, and this may be.. I won't say it's unique to me because there are lawyers in other firms that do this job. But I have found it to be extraordinarily helpful in the work that I have done as the firm counsel. What happens typically, I have other people on an ethics committee I don't do this all by myself for a firm of our size, so there are two other members that work with me on loss prevention issues and several members on an ethics and conflicts committee. But the vast majority of questions have come to me over the nine years that I've been doing this job. And they come from every area of the practice. I would say the majority have to do with conflict issues, but they could deal with anything from difficulty with an opposing counsel, inadvertently receiving a document, what do would do with it? An improper communication that somebody has made with our client, I mean the whole gamut of issues that arise in regards to professional conduct. So it's sort of like a helpline and I've got to be prepared to respond to all these questions. And it's certainly been a great value to me in becoming a better listener, sort of listening for the question maybe below the question that I'm being asked. And to help the lawyers in our firm and to help me sort of clarify what our values. Not every question is as simple as, do we have a conflict or don't we have a conflict. There are a lot of judgment calls that go into this job and in handling, I've literally had thousands of interactions with our lawyers over the time that I've served. [00:21:55] And I think having a mindfulness practice helps you clarify what your values are, to shift your perspective to look at something from a variety of different angles. I love the idea, I know you're familiar with it, the beginner's mind. I don't approach these consultations with the idea that I necessarily have all the answers, and therefore I'm willing to listen and to sort of allow my perspective to take shape. And I think all that is just enhanced and deepened by a mindfulness practice. [00:22:39] And then the other aspect, if I can go on for one more minute about this, is on the loss prevention side. These can be very difficult conversations, for anyone who's ever had them. When a lawyer comes to you and says, "I think I made a mistake," or, "I did make a mistake," and you're the one in whom that person is confiding, you're dealing with what can be a very fragile situation. And I think you need to approach it an empathetic way. The lawyer who you're talking to has probably been beating himself or herself up for at least 24 hours, maybe lost some sleep over the issue. And in addition to that, they are imagining all of the horror of the consequences that they think are going to occur as a result of what they believe their error might be. So they're engaged in catastrophizing about that. Your job is to sit there, even in a situation where you say, well this might be bad. And not to respond to it, not to react to it in any kind of an impulsive way. Not to do anything that's only going to exacerbate that person's psychological distress. [00:24:24] I like to think I had some of those qualities before I started meditating, but I assure you that they are a lot better than whatever I had. Since I have been meditating, because I'm very conscious now of the thought process that I'm going through. So it's just, it's kind of a long-winded answer and there's a lot in there, but there are just so many ways in which this has enhanced the way that I practice, and the way that I really look at what the practice of law is all about. Jeena Cho: [00:25:02] Yeah. And I know to be true what you're saying just from my own experience and just having worked with lawyers on bringing mindfulness into their own life. You know, for me I feel like it actually has made life clearer. It just feels like we all sort of walk around with these blinders and these filters, but it feels like I can see life with just so much more clarity. And so when my mind is doing the catastrophizing like you say, I can go oh, I'm catastrophizing and I'm literally imagining the worst case scenario because I missed a deadline and I know, maybe forgot to file this thing. And the mind is doing that thing where it inevitably leads to, like I'm going to be disbarred and then I'm going to be homeless. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:25:56] Right, that's it. And the mind doesn't sort of stroll down the road to those, the mind races to the worst possible consequences of what might happen. And this acts as a brake on that. So it's very helpful to have that, I think that kind of approach to it. And I think I have some of the feeling that you have, that I think I am able to see some things more clearly. You know this is not a panacea, it's not going to transform someone's personality overnight. But I think there is an evolution that takes place over time, and if you ask people who are close to me about certain behavior traits or certain personality traits that I had before I started meditating and to compare that to now, they will tell you there's been an improvement. So I would say don't ask me, if you want to know whether meditation is having an effect, ask your spouse or your close friends and I think they will tell you that it has. Jeena Cho: [00:27:14] Yeah, it's so funny because my husband also meditates with me. And there will be days where for one reason I don't meditate for a few days, and he'll actually notice and go, "Have you been meditating?" And I'm like, no. And he's like, "Maybe you should." So it's apparently very noticeable when I'm not meditating. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:27:34] Well one of the things about Headspace, and it's not without some controversy, is they have something called a streak, where they will tell you how many days in a row you've meditated. And I've had this very long streak, and some people derive that idea. They say, you know it's not about counting and striving and all that, but to me it's useful to track how much time you're doing it, how dedicated you are to it. And I don't know what I would do if I didn't meditate, I wish I was committed to physical exercise as I am to meditation, because I can't imagine what a day would be like if I didn't sit down for at least ten minutes to meditate. [00:28:22] I have made it an absolute priority in my life, and I try to do it first thing in the morning because I find I'm most alert then. I find if I do it late at night I'm more likely that maybe nod off, which is not the ideal. But it's just, it's like brushing my teeth or eating or getting dressed. Jeena Cho: [00:28:44] Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I found not only my ability to respond to difficult situations, but also like I'm able to just experience more joy in my life that I didn't notice before. And I think a lot of that is that we as lawyers spend so much time sort of in that space of catastrophizing, and also we have the negativity bias. Where we're constantly looking at all the things that's not going right in our life, and we don't have that counter-balance. And I feel like meditation has really served as a counter-balance. And you know, even being grateful for something that's really important and critical, like oh I have a healthy body, or I have a roof over my head. Or I have you clean water. [00:29:33] Just so many incredible blessings, and I think often we can just get into this mode of looking at life with this grim lense and saying, oh everything's not okay, and look at all these things that are not going my way. And we really just forget the incredible amount of blessings that we all have. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:29:53] Yeah, and the problem is that our professional training.. I mean some of us come to profession with that kind of mindset, but our professional training exacerbates that if we are already that way, or inculcates that if we aren't. And that is to look at things like, what's the worst case scenario. If you're a litigator, you're by definition in a situation of conflict. One of the things that's occurred over my 40 years of practice is of course there's much more emphasis on alternative dispute resolution, mediation, and things of that sort. But those are still situations of conflict. And then you throw in the fact that lawyers are I think by definition perfectionists; everything has to be done exactly right. You know, you read and re-read a contract or a plea to make sure that you have not missed anything. So all these things are sort of reinforcing that kind of negative self-critical mindset, and that makes it very hard to walk outside your office and look up at the sky, or pick up a leaf and look at it, or focus on what's happening in the moment. You know, John Kabat-Zinn likes to say, "This is the only moment you have. This moment that you're in right now is all you are doing. If you're living in the past with regrets about what you did last week or last month, or your anticipating something in the future, you're missing out on what's happening right in front of you. [00:31:46] And it's easy to do that as a lawyer. There's always a deadline coming up, there's always a trial next month or six months from now. Your phone's ringing, your clients are upset about what's going on in a case. So I think you need something to anchor you. And I found that meditation for me has been that anchor. Jeena Cho: [00:32:10] Yeah, yeah. So true. I remember when I did the eight-week mindfulness based stress-reduction class, there's like a day-long retreat that you go on. And we were doing walking meditation and I saw this giant, beautiful rose bush and I walked over to it and I smelled the roses. And it's so cliché, like smell the roses. But I did, and it was just one of those blissful moments, and I remember being like this is why they tell you to smell the roses. I mean, like you know its so cliché. Like oh, smell the roses. But how often do we actually pause to do nothing but savor and smell a rose, which is like this incredibly delightful experience. So now I take it to heart and I make a point to actually go smell the roses when I see a rosebush. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:33:02] Well we just had our retreat for the MBSR course, and I had a similar experience watching a duck glide across a still pond. To stand there and say, when have I done that? I don't want people to leave this podcast with the impression that you're going to be walking around this blissful smile on your face and all of life's stresses will suddenly bounce off of you. It's not that way, but just the fact that more times a day than you could ever imagine you're going to stop, you're going to take a deep breath, you're going to look at something in a new way. You're going to focus on a problem in a different way that you wouldn't have if you were wearing the blinders of your conventional thinking. Suddenly these things are going to start adding up and give you a much richer and fuller perspective on life. [00:34:10] At least that's been my experience. And in conversations with lots of other people who are doing this as well, I don't think there's anything unique about me by any means. Jeena Cho: [00:34:21] Right. Yeah, I remember going into my first MBSR class and I was just so stressed and so anxious. And typically they start by asking the group, you know what brings you here. And you kind of go around and everyone shares. And I'm like, oh! There are 49 other people in this room that have the exact same thing that I'm struggling with. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:34:44] The idea of as I've heard it expressed of "just like me." If you look at people who are doing something, or if you're critical of somebody, you're being trained through this process to take a step back and say you know, that person wants the same kinds of things that I want. Maybe they're not going about getting them in the most skillful way, but they're no less human than I am. And it gives you a very different perspective on the people that you interact with. Jeena Cho: [00:35:24] Right, yeah that idea, "just like me," was so critical for me. Especially for the litigators out there and the lawyers that are handling really contentious cases. Because there are just people that you come across and you're just like, I really do not like this person and I have nothing in common with this person. And you can really start to personalize every interaction with this person. I had this one particular opposing counsel, and she and I were just not getting along, to put it mildly. And we were doing that thing where we would send one nasty e-mail after another, trying to find each other. [00:36:01] And something clicked inside my head when I learned that concept of "just like me," because I realize you know just like me, just as I find her to be incredibly difficult and I don't want to be on this case with this woman, she probably feels the exact same way. And just like me, she too wants peace and happiness and joy and safety and security; all of these very, very human things. And I think we can often sort of lose sight of that, our common humanity. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:36:34] Well you mentioned the e-mails, sending off nasty e-mails. And that at times has been the bane of my existence, both as an attorney, a litigator representing clients, and on occasion as firm counsel. Of course not too often because I've tried to reinforce that message to our lawyers, but think about the way e-mail, (which has been around basically for 20 years, I'd say since the mid 1990's) people send the most outrageous things and do it in such an impulsive way. And they live to regret it. If you have something that's going to intervene between writing that nasty e-mail that's going to get you or your client into a lot of trouble in that case and clicking the send button, that's a really valuable skills to have. [00:37:38] And there have been times when I've completely rewritten an e-mail, when I said no this is not the right tone. I just had to get this down, get it out of my system. Now I'm going to go back and re-write it. So I think mindfulness gives you the space that is going to have you sending fewer of those e-mails, or reacting to the bait. You know how there are certain lawyers who's game plan is to try to get you to lose control? Every litigator has them, they have one or two or three of those. [00:38:17] One of the worst things about caller ID is, you now know you're going to have a phone call with that nasty lawyer you can't stand because you see the phone number or the name of that person. At least in the old days in my practice, the phone would ring and I would pick it up. Now you have an opportunity through mindful to say.. and one of the things I've started doing, this is fairly recent, is I will let the phone ring three times before I pick it up. I've had to educate a couple of lawyers in our firm who give me one ring and then they hang up. But the point is you know, take a couple of breaths, get yourself grounded. It's kind of a mini-meditation that you're doing, and then you're able to field that (what you know is going to be a stressful phone call) with a little more mindfulness. [00:39:17] I think that's a technique that, you don't have to be meditating to do that. It certainly helps to get into that meditative state, but it's something that I think is very valuable. And then when the other attorney starts hurling insults at you or at your client, you're less likely to get into an escalating war of words. And that could be very valuable. Jeena Cho: [00:39:40] Yeah and often mindfulness is talked about in the context of there's a stimulus and there's that knee-jerk reaction, and mindfulness gives you that ability to pause before your knee-jerk reaction. Which then becomes a response, so you can sort of respond with the best intentions. Sometimes we send off e-mails and it might not get us or our clients into trouble, but we just know that was not my best work. That was not my most genuine, I didn't show up as my best self when I sent that e-mail. Which was a little bit hitting below the belt or was unnecessarily unkind, or you know whatever that may be. [00:40:23] And I think as lawyers we have that obligation to try to show up as our best selves, and to really be clear about our intention and what we hold to be true and what we value as sort of the core of who we are as lawyers, and how we're going to show up for every case or every situation. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:40:43] Well one myth that I would like to offer my small debunking of, is the idea that a meditation practice and mindfulness are somehow going to make you soft, weak, ineffective, not aggressive on behalf of your clients; and none of those claims are true. I would say if anything, they're going to make you a better lawyer. Because you're not going to leap to instant judgments. You're not going to think that you know all the answers and find yourself closing off avenues of thought or investigation that might help your client's case. So when I've heard that objection, I think that's one of the easier ones to debunk. I think it makes you potentially much more powerful and much more effective, because you're learning more about how your own mind works. And you know as a lawyer, that's our tool. We don't have machines, we don't have MRI's or x-ray machines, we have our minds and we have our thought process. So anything that contributes to clarity of thinking and soundness of judgment and empathy, that's a good thing. And those are all qualities that meditation fosters. Jeena Cho: [00:42:23] Yeah. So I guess to kind of wrap things up, now that we've hopefully shared very fully all the different benefits and why lawyers should practice mindfulness, what are some resources that you would recommend for lawyers who want to start meditating? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:42:41] Well I'm allowed to say this because I know you're not a soft promoter, so I would strongly, strongly recommend your book "The Anxious Lawyer" that you and Karen Gifford wrote. The thing that I think is beautiful about that for lawyers is that as distinguished from the many, many hundreds of fine meditation instruction books that are out there (and I've read a number of them), this is specifically geared toward lawyers. It has a lot of information about your experiences and Karen's experiences in practice, and how the techniques of meditation and mindfulness are applied. So if you're looking for a book to get started, I would certainly highly recommend "The Anxious Lawyer". And then Headspace, As I said has been a great app for me. Another app that I've experimented with a little bit is Dan Harris' app, 10 Percent Happier, which has a variety of instructors in the app and it's I think maybe a little glitzier than Headspace. Either one of those. And then there are lots and lots of apps out there, Insight Timer is another one that has free meditations.. Jeena Cho: [00:44:03] Right, that's the one that I use, yeah. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:44:06] So there are plenty of resources out there, but I think your book is as good a starting place as any. And it's also got a program, a week-by-week program for eight weeks to introduce somebody to a mindfulness practice. And it's very clearly written, there's no jargon in there, so go buy Jeena's book. Jeena Cho: [00:44:34] I appreciate that, that's very kind of you. Harvey, for the folks that want to connect with you or ask you questions, or just want to pick your brain. what's a good place where they can go and do that? Harvey Freedenberg: [00:44:51] Well I think the best place Jeena, since I'm transitioning out of my law practice, would be on Twitter. My handle there is @HarvF, "H-A-R-V-F". I've also created a couple of lists there, one is on mindfulness and meditation, which has several hundred people that are involved in various aspects of meditation. So you might want to check out that list. So that's probably the best place to get in touch with me right now. Jeena Cho: [00:45:25] Wonderful. And you are very active on Twitter, and I always enjoy reading what you have to say. So definitely go connect with Harvey on Twitter and I will also include his Twitter handle in the show notes. And my final question to you is, the name of the podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:45:50] I love the name of the podcast, and I thought a lot about this. To me, it's somebody who keeps the practice of law in its proper perspective. And it is someone for whom the various aspects of life, which would include work as a lawyer, family, community service, exercise, sleep, nutrition; all the things that go into healthy living. And through mindfulness and meditation, in my case a practice of mental and emotional self-care, that all of those elements are in harmony or balance. I think if you can achieve that or strive in that direction, that you will be well on the path to becoming resilient. Jeena Cho: [00:46:45] I love that answer. Harvey, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with me and the audience. I really appreciate it. Harvey Freedenberg: [00:46:54] Thank you Jeena, it's been a real pleasure. And thank you for all you're doing to spread the message of mindfulness. Jeena Cho: [00:47:04] Thank you. Closing: [00:47:05] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Gifford back on to talk about falling in and out of a meditation practice and how to revitalize it. Karen Gifford is COO of Ripple Labs, global leader on distributed financial technology. Previously, she worked in the financial industry, first as an attorney in the private sector and at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where she was Counsel and Officer in the Litigation and Enforcement Group. Alongside her legal and consulting career, Karen began meditating in a yoga tradition more than fifteen years ago, initially as a means of coping with the stress of her legal practice. Her executive coaching work incorporates meditation and mindfulness practices, placing a strong focus on the importance of inner skills such as detachment and resilience for effective leadership. She also teaches meditation, with an emphasis on bringing the insights of meditation into everyday life. Karen is active in the start-up world as a founder, investor and advisor. She holds a J.D. from Yale Law School and an A.B. from Vassar College. Topics Covered Karen reflects on how even after practicing meditation for 15 years, she has felt the difficulties of falling out of practice and not being fully present/sitting and the tools she has used to re-ignite that fire. The importance of forgiving yourself and never going into a meditation holding inner-resentment or judgment for a lack of practice. How maintaining a regular practice schedule can both help form and keep other good habits, as well as create the spaciousness in your mind to halt bad habits. Good practice leads to confidence in your own mind and abilities.   Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Karen Gifford: [00:00:04] Having a little space around your impulses is super helpful in creating habits that you want to have. Intro: [00:00:11] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:35] And this is The Resilient Lawyer podcast, meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and agents of change. The Resilient Lawyer is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference. This is episode number 37 and I am your host, Jeena Cho. On today's episode, I have Karen Gifford on again. For those of you that didn't listen to episode number 36, you can go back and learn a little bit more about her. [00:01:06] But in this episode, we thought we would chat about what happens when your meditation practice no longer feels new, or you fall out of the habit of practicing. So I think Karen, what typically happens is you buy the book, you buy The Anxious Lawyer book and you start reading it and you're all jazzed, and maybe a week, or two, three, four weeks into it all of a sudden you hit that barrier where all of a sudden the practice is no longer new and fun, and it just kind of feels like a chore. Or all of a sudden you can't find the time, or you know, whatever happens. Does that happen in your meditation practice? Karen Gifford: [00:01:44] Oh absolutely, absolutely. I've been meditating over 15 years and I still go through phases where it is just really hard to get my tush on the meditation cushion and just actually do it. [00:01:59] And we were talking about this earlier, it's mysterious why that happens. It's not like I can point to any particular thing in my life or meditation technique or anything. It's just sometimes it's hard to meditate Jeena Cho: [00:02:14] Yeah, so what happened? Because you have a very consistent meditation practice. I mean, I follow you on the Insight meditation app so I know how much you're meditating. Which is a little bit creepy, I recognize. So what happens, you're meditating daily and things are going well and then..and then what happens? Karen Gifford: [00:02:36] You know, the time when this really came up for me most recently was probably about a year ago, almost exactly a year ago. I remember talking to you about it. And it wasn't, it kind of crept up on me. And this is one thing, one thing we say in the book is to keep a meditation journal because it keeps you honest. Well, I wasn't doing that, so I don't even really know when it started to be hard for me to meditate. [00:03:07] I do know I started, for the first time in my entire meditation practice, I started having trouble staying awake during meditation. I'd start drifting off and I was like, what is going on? This is so weird! In the past, no matter how tired I was I could stay awake while meditating. And one of my meditation buddies (who's also my former college roommate) said, "This will finally give you compassion for me!" Because she's always had trouble with falling asleep. And I was always like, you know just sit down and do it. [00:03:49] And I couldn't. So I was having trouble because I was falling asleep, and then I was just having trouble sitting at all. And this went on for a couple of months at least, I don't even remember how long. I never really understood why I was having so much difficulty getting myself to set; I do know it passed. I would just say, feeling sure that it would pass was probably the most hopeful thing. Jeena Cho: [00:04:28] Yeah. Well perhaps looking back to when you first started meditating over ten years ago, a long time ago. Karen Gifford: [00:04:37] Yeah, I started meditating in like 1997 or 1998 probably. Jeena Cho: [00:04:43] Oh my gosh, so almost 20 years ago. Karen Gifford: [00:04:48] Oh my goodness, it is. Wow, okay. Yeah. Jeena Cho: [00:04:54] And I'm sure you've had other sorts of cycles where you have difficulties sitting. So when you notice you've been meditating every day and you stop sitting, are you conscious that you're not sitting on those days that you're not sitting, or do you just sort of skip and you're not even cognizant of it? Karen Gifford: [00:05:19] Well like I said, I think if I don't pay attention to whether I'm sitting or not, it's easy to miss more than I think. And actually, you were joking with me you see me on Insight Timer, but that's a great tool that way. Because it does have these little metrics that shows you, you have to always use that timer (which I don't necessarily always use). But if you're consistent with using it, then it will show you how much you've been skipping. So that's a super useful thing, or keeping a diary, which I did a lot and you go back and forth on. But I do find it super helpful to keep a super short meditation diary. Jeena Cho: [00:06:02] Do you keep that journal on Insight Timer? Karen Gifford: [00:06:05] I don't, and I know that it's there and I know a bunch of people that do. It's just, I think I didn't realize it had a journal functionality when I started using it. So I always just kept mine in like a word processing document. Jeena Cho: [00:06:23] Oh, interesting, okay. Karen Gifford: [00:06:23] Yes, old school. I guess really old school would be pen and paper. Jeena Cho: [00:06:28] Yeah, I was kind of thinking maybe like a composition book or some type of official notebook or something like that, where you keep all of your entries. Karen Gifford: [00:06:38] You know what's nice about having it on an electronic form, is it's searchable. It's so silly, but it's nice to be able to find things when you're like, didn't I have some brilliant insight after meditation one day? You can find it that way. Jeena Cho: [00:06:55] Yeah. So you're meditating, and at some point you realize you're not meditating. And then what? Then what do you do? Karen Gifford: [00:07:05] It's very situational, right? One thing I think is to not have the tendency that I generally have, which is to try to power through things. Like if I get into a thing where I'm judging myself for not meditating or trying to force myself to sit, neither one of those things really works. [00:07:32] I think forcing yourself to sit, I think sometimes just sitting down even if you think nothing is going to happen, that it's going to be horrible, can be good. But if you're sitting there with a very judgmental attitude about yourself, that is not helpful. For me, if I say like, okay I'm just going to go sit. I don't care if I sit and think about you know, what I'm going to do at work tomorrow the whole time, that's fine. That will work for me. But being like, you meditation loser, that is not productive. It's not helpful. Jeena Cho: [00:08:15] For me, what I always notice is I'll have a goal in mind where it's like, okay I'm going to meditate for a certain amount of time every day. And then all of a sudden I'll hit these walls where just, you know I could have been sitting for somewhere (along the line, I sort of use that half-hour mark as the benchmark) and doing great for really long stretches of time and I'll be like, I've got this. And then all of a sudden the idea of sitting for half hour just feels torturous. I mean, it just feels awful awful awful! And then so then I just won't sit. So when you hit these bumps and you say okay, I'm just going to go sit, are you still setting the timer or are you just sort of sitting free-form without the timer? Karen Gifford: [00:09:03] You know, this is a really good point. Because sometimes what I'll do is I'll say, I'm going to sit for 10 minutes, I'm just going to sit for a minute, whatever little thing it is. Just so I hold onto that habit. Because I know now from experience that eventually it's going to be easy again. But losing the habit has its own sort of momentum, so why have that problem too? Right? So if I can just get myself to sit a little bit, that's very helpful. Jeena Cho: [00:09:39] Yeah. And I think that's a really good tip, is if you notice you've fallen out the habit but the idea of sitting for whatever sort of your gold standard is, then sit for (you know, like we talk about in the book) just two minutes, just so that you can keep that habit going. Because it IS a habit, and I think forming any habit is really, really hard; particularly when it's something like meditation. Do you find that actually having a meditation habit helps you to form other good habits in your life? Karen Gifford: [00:10:13] Oh, that's an interesting idea. Maybe. One thing that I do notice is since starting to meditate however many years ago, having a little space around your impulses is super helpful in creating habits that you want to have, right? So, like I used to really have a problem eating chocolate at night. Like, would sit down with a book and just unconsciously eat too much chocolate. And I had this whole thing where I was like, all your teeth are going to fall out of your head, you're going to become a diabetic.. like I was very worried about this bad habit. [00:11:00] Something about the spaciousness that you start to develop around your thoughts was super helpful to me in breaking that habit. Now, whether it was that important to stop eating chocolate at night, I don't know. But what I did see was that I was able to; that I was able to just notice, oh this is just an impulse. I have a choice about whether I give in to this impulse or not, it's not running me. I doubt I could have done that if I hadn't had the insight from meditation that there is spaciousness around your thoughts. They're not real, they're just phenomena, they're just something that your mind produces and you can choose whether to buy into them or not. I'm sure there are other examples of habits that have been helpful to me, but that's the one that really jumps out. Jeena Cho: [00:11:54] Yeah, yeah. I noticed because there are certain habits that I try to incorporate into my life. I mean just silly things, like eating breakfast every morning. Which for some reason for me has always been a challenge, and it still is. And on those mornings where I either forget to eat breakfast or don't eat breakfast or don't want to eat breakfast, it's like I see sort of the same patterns repeating itself that shows itself in my meditation practice. It's like, this resistance to eating breakfast feels very similar to the resistance to my sitting practice. Or like the resistance to going to my yoga class. [00:12:32] You know, it's a habit that shows itself in my meditation practice and I think that, we were talking about this earlier, how do you break that cycle? Do you try to force yourself, do you try to power through it? Or I don't know, kind of having a gentleness around that resistance, but also at the same time having some level of firmness and a sense that it's going to change or pass. But you're not going to like, you're such an awful person, go to yoga!! Karen Gifford: [00:13:12] Right. Well for me, gentleness is key. And it's almost like, you were talking about this the other day when you were saying it's like pushing a beach ball into the ocean. If you push against an impulse that you're having and try to fight it, you take all the energy of your fighting it and put it into that thing, whatever it is. It's just going to push back. For me, that's very true. [00:13:43] So, whatever gentleness means to me in that moment. Whether it's like with meditation saying, okay I'm just going to sit for a little while. Or I do all kinds of little things to make meditation a pleasant experience for me; I have a chair that I like to sit in that's comfortable and a particular blanket that I like to have. If I'm traveling, I'll make a cozy little nest for myself. Gentleness can mean all different kinds of things; it can be a stance you're taking towards yourself. Like, okay I understand, it's hard to sit today. Now we're going to sit. That can be all it takes for me, to feel like I've been treated gently by my own mind. Jeena Cho: [00:14:34] Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I think it was last year, I don't know exactly when it was, but there was a period where I just could not get myself to sit. And I was also very aware I wasn't sitting, but then I would have this whole like guilt trip with myself. Every morning I would get up and be like, okay Jeena it's time to sit. Then there would be this part of me that was like, no I don't want to sit. And then it would be like, oh you're a horrible person because you're not sitting, you're not committing to your practice. And you're writing a book on mindfulness and meditation for lawyers, so now your right to write this book should be taken away from you. Like the whole thing. And this just went on for days and days and days. And finally I was just like, you know what for the next two weeks I'm just not going to sit, and I'm going to just fully give myself permission to not sit. And then I think after two or three days I was like, oh no I really want to sit. Karen Gifford: [00:15:26] Right, and that could be the gentle thing in that context, for sure. You're making me think of one of my friends who, she really has some kind of reactivity around committing to a certain amount of time; that gets her very wound up in the same way. And she just stopped setting a timer. And for her, that was perfect. And really, her practice hasn't changed. It's just feeling that she's free in some way to not sit for..I don't even remember how long she sits, 20 minutes or half an hour or something like that. Just having that feeling that it's fine for it not to be that long, was all she really needed. Jeena Cho: [00:16:15] So often I think, especially for lawyers, we get caught up in this, I have to do this correctly or I have to do this perfectly. And sort of the gold standard is that you know, you set a timer and you sit in this particular posture on this particular cushion. Karen Gifford: [00:16:29] And I have to make an effort, this is actually something that's been coming up in my practice a whole lot recently, is the realization that this isn't actually an effortless practice. Or the effort that you make once you're sitting, that's it. And there's part of me that I can see that's been very resistant to that. That's like, I must have this sort of peaceful state of mind, you know, whatever it is. And I'm sitting there at this point I guess a few weeks ago going, what am I doing? That's so silly. [00:17:14] You know I already get an A. I'm already sitting here, I already get an A. Whatever it is I'm trying to achieve, it's done. And you know, really it's been sitting quietly. So there is nothing you have to do in order to sit quietly, you're just sitting. Jeena Cho: [00:17:33] Although at a recent retreat (and I shared this with you) the teacher was talking about how you can meditate and sort of get some level of malloy in your meditation practice and you can sort of become dull in your meditation practice. And therefore your mind can sort of become dull. And I was completely paranoid about what this teacher had said. I don't know, what do you think? Karen Gifford: [00:18:00] I wish that teacher hadn't said that, honestly. I think perhaps theoretically that's possible, but people who are reading The Anxious Lawyer book, people who went to professional school, are not that group that's just going to space out and get into a fuzzy frame of mind. I think it's almost the opposite. It's almost like you have to, there's so many layers of efforting to just let go of. I feel like I'm still letting go of layers of effort. You know, your mind is really something; there is a natural clarity to it. There is a natural concentration. You can just let that shine through. You can just let that shine through and know that even if you have a foggy day, eventually the clarity is going to come out. Jeena Cho: [00:19:08] Yeah. Having that sort of faith in your yourself and your practice I think is really hard to have. Especially because we're so focused on you know, it's almost like we need a manual, we need a teacher, and we need the teacher to give us an A. We get so caught up in that, which is also why I think it's so good for lawyers and other professionals to meditate. Because we get so trapped in that, it's really a lie. That sense of, I'm failing at this and I suck at this. And it's all that sort of noise that gets filtered into our consciousness when we're sitting quietly. Karen Gifford: [00:19:57] As a group, lawyers are very self-critical. I'm not exactly sure why that is. I think it must have to do with being so achievement-oriented. That's kind of the dark side of being in an achiever, is that you never think you've achieved enough. So yeah, it is a really big shift to just let yourself be confident in this process. And that your own mind will take you in the right direction. But I do think that is one of the really great things about starting a meditation practice. Chances are, if you're open-minded about it, give it a chance and get a practice up and running, relatively early on you're going to have an experience that gives you confidence in your own mind. [00:20:48] You're going to have an experience of quiet. You're going to see some space spaciousness around your thoughts. You're going to notice that, oh I was calm in a situation that I certainly would not have been in the past. Just like I was saying about knowing what's right for you; it will be obvious. And just, the thing that we might have a tendency to do is push that away and go, oh that was a coincidence or you know, not give it it's full space. But that would be the one thing I would say if you can, is notice those moments and value them; because those are the evidence of how your mind is going to take you in the right direction. And that there is this anchor inside you that's anchored in a very good place. Jeena Cho: [00:21:49] Yes, maybe the takeaway message is keep doing it, keep doing it every day. Karen Gifford: [00:21:55] Try, try to do it every day. And if you can't do it every day, don't beat yourself up about it. Every day is new. Jeena Cho: [00:22:03] Yeah, every day is new, right. Karen Gifford: [00:22:05] It's always waiting for you. It's like riding a bike. Jeena Cho: [00:22:17] It is like riding a bike, that's perfect. [00:22:17] Thank you for tuning into another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed this show, please consider telling a friend. That's really the only way we have to grow the show. Also, why not leave a review on iTunes? It only takes a minute and really does help with the visibility and promotion of the show. If you have any questions, email me at questions@resilientlawyer.com or you can follow me on Twitter, @jeena_cho or anxiouslawyer.com. Closing: [00:22:49] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Gifford on to discuss co-writing our book, The Anxious Lawyer, her wellness routine, and life after law. Karen Gifford is COO of Ripple Labs, global leader on distributed financial technology. Previously, she worked in the financial industry, first as an attorney in the private sector and at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where she was Counsel and Officer in the Litigation and Enforcement Group. Alongside her legal and consulting career, Karen began meditating in a yoga tradition more than fifteen years ago, initially as a means of coping with the stress of her legal practice. Her executive coaching work incorporates meditation and mindfulness practices, placing a strong focus on the importance of inner skills such as detachment and resilience for effective leadership. She also teaches meditation, with an emphasis on bringing the insights of meditation into everyday life. Karen is active in the start-up world as a founder, investor and advisor. She holds a J.D. from Yale Law School and an A.B. from Vassar College. Topics Covered Karen tells us on her writing process with The Anxious Lawyer, her thoughts on the end result, and how living at a meditation ashram helped her find her inner quiet, which helped formulate the thoughts for the book. How the internalization of the job that can lead to feeling burnt out and stuck in your career, and the importance of a wellness practice to create space and distance to stay motivated and vigilant. The impact that distance and awareness can have on self-reflection, both personally and professionally. Life after law: Finding joy in your work, always remaining sensitive to where you stand instinctually, and always looking for the obvious answer when it comes to making a transition in your career.     Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Karen Gifford: [00:00:03] Joy doesn't have to express itself with puppies and rainbows and flowers, it can also express itself in a great argument or a beautifully presented witness. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] This is The Resilient Lawyer podcast, meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and agents of change. The Resilient Lawyer is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference. This is episode number 37, I am your host Jeena Cho. Hi everyone. It's been forever since I recorded my last podcast, but I've been very busy with the launch of "The Anxious Lawyer" book and I have in studio with me Karen Gifford, my co-author. Karen Gifford: [00:01:18] Hi Jeena, it's so great to be talking about our book together. Jeena Cho: [00:01:24] I know, it's been such a long journey, it feels like. Karen Gifford: [00:01:27] It sure has, it sure has. And it's just an amazing feeling to be not coming to the end of it. I don't think this is the end. But getting to the end of the work, of reading the book, creating the audio recording, going out into the world and talking about the book, that sort of thing. Jeena Cho: [00:01:49] Yeah. So how does it feel to you? Karen Gifford: [00:01:52] Well you know, when I first started practicing law one of the partners I worked for said about going to court, he said there's the argument you were going to make, there's the argument you actually made, and then there's the argument you would have made. Jeena Cho: [00:02:07] Yeah. Karen Gifford: [00:02:07] And I was thinking about that with the book, and I was thinking you know I do feel a little bit like I go back and read the book and I think, oh I should have said this, or I should have said that. But all in all I'm happy with it. I don't have a big feeling like it should have been very different from how it ended up being. We were talking earlier and discussing the fact that doing the audio recording has brought us back into closer relation with the content of the book. And as I read it, I really enjoy reading it. I like what we said, and I appreciate the insights that you have in the book, and I'm happy that I remembered to say some of the things that I wanted to say. So it's good, I'm feeling pretty happy. Jeena Cho: [00:02:56] What was the writing process like for you? Karen Gifford: [00:03:01] Well, the writing process really had two big parts to it for me. So when we first started out writing, I got into a nice rhythm where I was getting up early and writing for three hours every day. And that was pretty wonderful, I get really sweet memories of doing that. Then maybe six months into that, I had a big interruption there was a big crisis at my office, and you and I had talked about that and I just completely got pulled away from writing. And that's pretty stressful because the work situation was quite stressful, and I also felt like I was neglecting this thing I cared about a lot. And that was rough. And then getting back into writing again, I actually felt like a relief after that, when I finally had time again. It was just nice to be doing something that I liked and cared about and was sweet, instead of dealing with a lot of crazy work crisis issues. Jeena Cho: [00:04:09] Yeah. Is the writing itself sort of peaceful? Did you feel like the content sort of flowed out or was it is a struggle to try to find the words? What was that process like? Karen Gifford: [00:04:22] A lot of it really flowed. I think early on, you and I spent a bunch of time laying out the chapters and talking about the things that we wanted to cover, and also talking about how we wanted to frame what we were doing. And I think that was the important work, and it was really useful. I had never really had a chance to talk about meditation practice with another lawyer in so much depth as what you and I did. We had so many meetings over coffee, meals and stuff, and talking about not only our experience of starting to meditate while practicing law, but also the reactions of our colleagues. And who was excited by it, who was really like weirded out by it, why we thought that might be the case. [00:05:14] Once we had talked all that through and talked about the way we wanted to present meditation to lawyers, so that maybe they wouldn't have to face some of the barriers that we faced when we got started, the writing itself I guess came pretty naturally. Jeena Cho: [00:05:32] Yeah, well I guess for the listeners that don't know you, might be helpful to give them a little bit of a background, just in terms of like what you've done throughout your career and the work that you're doing now. I think you talk your career transition in the book, but I don't know that too many people actually know what you do now. Karen Gifford: [00:05:55] I practiced law in the private sector, I practiced at a law firm for a while when I first graduated from law school. And then I was at the New York Fed for quite some time, for eight years doing civil litigation on behalf of the Fed and also civil enforcement actions, bringing of enforcement actions. Which is pretty similar to what the SEC does. It's bringing enforcement actions either against individuals or entities who've broken the banking-related laws in one way or another. [00:06:31] So I did that for quite some time and then left and ended up doing regulatory consulting after moving from the East Coast to the West Coast, and worked for a boutique consulting firm doing that for quite a bit of time. And after the financial crisis I just really got burnt out doing that. I felt like some of the changes I was hoping to see in the financial industry were just really taking a long time. [00:07:05] Especially, you do a consulting project and then you leave so you don't know what happened, you come back maybe to the same company or a similar type of company, and you see the exact same issue again. And it gets discouraging. So I left consulting, maybe like five years ago now. Since then have just been doing some investing in a small way, in the FinTech industry. And also advising, spent about two years working on the management team of FinTech company, getting their compliance program set up, also helped recruit a general counsel, kind of help to get the control side organized. So I wrapped that up maybe a little over a year ago now. And so I'm now just doing advisory work and working on the book, which has been terrific. Jeena Cho: [00:08:08] OK so when you talk about FinTech, what does that mean? Karen Gifford: [00:08:11] What does FinTech mean? You know that's a great question also, because it means a lot of different things to different people. So you could say PayPal is a FinTech company, because it offers financial services using technology. And really everyone uses technology, even if you're using an abacus that's technology. But delivering financial services through electronic means is really what is meant by FinTech. And I got attracted to working in FinTech because I saw a lot of really entrenched problems in the financial industry. [00:08:51] In the case of Ripple, the company where I was working, around payments and how payments are executed, the way banks do it today is really slow. It's got a lot of operational problems, it's expensive. It makes it hard to serve the people who are poorly served by the banking community. And a technology like the one that Ripple has really represents a major improvement, a major step forward, particularly in being able to do kind of small value, high volume payments. Which is what we need if we're going to serve the billion people who aren't in the formal banking system today. Jeena Cho: [00:09:44] So there's a billion people that don't have access to checking, savings account and what we typically consider as access to financial services? Karen Gifford: [00:09:51] Up until last year, people were saying there were 2 billion people who were capable of having a bank account, who are adults with a financial life who didn't have one. And I think there have been some pretty big strides, particularly in India, about getting people into the formal financial sector. So it's not 2 billion any more, but it's more than a billion. Jeena Cho: [00:10:14] Obviously in the book you talk about how you sort of started your mindfulness practice. But I feel like there's parts of your story that didn't make it into the book, like you lived in a yoga ashram for some period of time. Like how did that come about? Karen Gifford: [00:10:29] How did all of that come about? Spending time at the meditation ashram came about really through my husband, who this particular retreat center, they wanted to change their business model around a whole lot. Which sounds like a funny thing to say about a meditation retreat. And I think it was funny for them, but they had been very big and had thousands of people coming to stay there every year. And what they were finding was it had gotten bigger than they wanted it to be, and just having it be quiet and a place where people can come and be contemplative and really build their meditation practice had started to be threatened by the size of the center itself. [00:11:20] So they were trying to downsize, not because they were having problems but because they had kind of drifted away from what they felt their core mission was. So my husband has an MBA, so he went to help with that. And it was outside the city, we were living in New York City at the time. So I really had a chance to go, I mean I did do some work in the communications department but I wasn't really.. compared to having a full-bore litigation practice, it was a chance for me to really step back a little bit. And it was terrific. It was terrific. [00:12:02] And also while we were there, even though we're both doing some work and we had kids who were in school so there's a lot of ferrying children back and forth and the normal responsibilities of parenting, we also did get to follow the ashram's schedule, which involved daily meditation practice twice a day, a lot of quiet. There was one TV set in the whole place, you know people talked about whether we would turn the TV on or not, mostly not. There weren't a lot of magazines. It was really a very, very, quiet place intentionally so, and that was terrific. That was terrific. One thing that I experienced when I was there, and I know you're going on an extended retreat coming up next year so we'll have to compare notes. [00:13:00] But one of the things I experienced, was when you do the same thing every day, when you are on the same schedule every day, day after day, and you're not getting a lot of outside stimulus and the kind of stimulus of every day, the internet, television, movies and even newsprint media that way. After a while, your mind gets really quiet. And in a way that I had never experienced, maybe as a kid but certainly not as an adult. And it was lovely. It was a very, very sweet experience. Jeena Cho: [00:13:41] You say your mind becomes quiet. What does that mean, what does that feel like? Karen Gifford: [00:13:46] So, if you notice how your mind is most of the time.. most of the time, even though you and I are talking right now, both of us I'm sure I know, if I pay attention I can see this. My mind is going, I'm thinking about what we will say next, what time I have to get home, how much studio time do we have. All of these thoughts are just kind of in the background, it's not like they're taking up my attention particularly but I know they're there. And they're just kind of buzzing you know, all the stuff that's been in the news in the past few days with the election. [00:14:26] There's just this whirl of thoughts in the background, and I always thought that was just the environment of a mind. And it is, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's great and lovely to experience a mind where your thoughts are whirling less. And there's just more space between each thought, kind of like when we closed the doors of the recording studio and we were both noticing how lovely and quiet it was in this room, it's kind of like that. Jeena Cho: [00:15:00] Yeah, yeah. And I always feel like these types of experiences are really difficult to try to explain in words to someone that hasn't had it. It's like trying to explain how does meditation change your mind or how does meditation feel in your own mind. It's hard to describe it in words. Karen Gifford: [00:15:22] It's true, it's true. Because it's just like any felt experience, right? One of the things, an analogy that I have is the taste of ice cream, right? You can describe it as much as you want, with as many words as you want, but until somebody picks up the spoon and tastes ice cream they don't totally know what you mean. And the experience of having your mind get very quiet is a very particular experience, and you can ironically use words to describe it. But it's in the experiencing that it really becomes clear. Jeena Cho: [00:16:04] So you've obviously gone through a lot of career transitions, and big career transitions really. And I think you and I have had conversations about this, but how do you think your meditation practice helped you through those pretty big transitions, or life transitions? Karen Gifford: [00:16:24] Oh I would definitely say it helped me, probably the biggest change that I made in terms of how it felt was to stop practicing law from practicing law. I was very, very identified with being a lawyer. Jeena Cho: [00:16:39] As most of us are, yeah. Karen Gifford: [00:16:42] Yeah, I don't know what it is about practicing law, probably practicing medicine is similar. It takes up so much of your day and also your mental space, your energy, and it's such a peculiar stance towards the world, right? That after a while you just start to identify so deeply with like, I am a lawyer, I fight for my clients. The whole framework just gets internalized, and for me to step away from that was really difficult, way more so than I thought. You think on a day when you're frustrated, you've had a fight with your opposing counsel, that's it I'm never doing this again. But then to actually stop doing it, you're not just giving up that fight with your opposing council you're giving up a whole you worldview really. [00:17:42] So I was surprised by that, I wasn't thinking about the fact that that would feel so big. And my meditation practice I think gave me spaciousness around it, and let me see that being a lawyer is an idea. It's not real, it's not a room that you literally move into. It's just something, it's a room you've made in your mind. And you can walk out of it and you're still all the qualities that you think of yourself as having, you still have those qualities. I think also another thing I went through is thinking, okay I'm never going to work again. I think a lot of litigators go through that, because we're jacks of all trade. We don't really know anything deeply. I used to say I only know something if somebody's been fighting about it. Jeena Cho: [00:18:38] Which is so true, yeah. Karen Gifford: [00:18:39] Right? And I thought, well who wants a regulatory lawyer? I'll never find a job doing what I was doing, and that turned out to just totally be my own trip. It was actually pretty easy to find work, and I didn't even know that regulatory consulting was a thing. But it's actually a pretty big thing that happened during the time I was practicing law. So it wasn't just my thing, my meditation practice made me open to trying something and realizing the difference between not knowing what was going to happen and disaster happening, right? Jeena Cho: [00:19:31] Right, your mind thinks, oh my god I'm never going to work again, I'm going to become homeless. But that's not the reality of the situation, yeah. So when you decided you were going to leave law, was it a particular moment or was it a transition, or was it a set of experiences where you were like, okay I think I need to leave. And then a year later, you finally made that decision. How did that process come about? Because I feel like this is something that I talk to a lot of lawyers about. They sort of know that being a lawyer is no longer the right career for them, but they don't know what's after that so then there's that fear of what am I going to do, what's my livelihood going to be? And I guess I'm curious about that decision-making process. Or maybe it's a felt experience, I don't know. Karen Gifford: [00:20:23] It certainly was a felt experience, for sure. And for me, it was something that unfolded over some time. So, part of it was trying to reconcile legal practice with parenting. So I was doing litigation, so there were always all these deadlines and I had done this big trial and promised my family that I was going to have time for them after the trial was over. Well, no sooner did I come back from doing the trial than six weeks later I was at this pre-trial conference that was meant, I thought was a scheduling conference. So we were going to be talking about something that was going to happen in a year, and my opposing counsel gets up and is like, "We want this to go right now!" And I was like, whatever. And the judge is like, okay fine, you're on for in two months. And I just watched my whole life, all my plans for hanging out with my kids and everything, go up in smoke. So that was big, that was a big part of it. [00:21:38] And then, I tried working part time and I didn't really like being a part time lawyer for a lot of different reasons. So that was that was going on, and then also I think this is a big thing that happens with lawyers, we just get to a point where we've done what we've come to do in practicing law. I had done a couple of big trials and some smaller ones, and I'd written a lot. I'd written a lot of briefs, I'd written position papers, written speeches for different Fed officials, and it just felt like it was of a piece, like I wasn't going to make it more complete than it was. Jeena Cho: [00:22:30] Yeah, yeah that makes sense. Yeah. And I think just that knowing requires a lot of awareness you know, almost like a day-to-day or week-by-week. So many of us just end up in this habitual pattern, where we just get up and do the thing that we're supposed to do. And all of a sudden years go by, and then we wake up one morning like wait. We don't really pause to assess our life and actually have those kinds of reflections. I mean for me, that's where sort of the day-to-day, having that moment of quiet has been super helpful because it's not like I get up one morning and think, I think I'm going to quit practicing law today. But you're actually making a little bit of space to have those thoughts about, oh well you know like what you said, now I feel like the work that I came here to do feels more complete than it did a year ago or two years ago. Karen Gifford: [00:23:26] That is such a good point, that is such a good point. I certainly have that tendency to just get caught up in the day-to-day, and not step back and sort of look at what am I doing. That's probably one of the biggest changes that meditation has brought in my life, and it has so many implications. Certainly for career, and also for relationships. In terms of seeing my own nonsense, you know? They pay me to fight, right, so like I'm a righty person so I'd always want to be right with my spouse or my kids. [00:24:07] And stepping back from that and going, wait a minute. Just look at this from the other person's perspective. I wasn't that capable of doing that years ago, and I feel really happy that it's not my first instinct, but it does it does come up. That, oh this other person might have a point of view here. Jeena Cho: [00:24:32] Yeah. Something I've been thinking more about is, obviously we both practiced litigation, this idea of knowing joy in the work that you do on a day-to-day basis. And whether that's possible when you're a litigator, especially in the context of the litigation system; the way it exists now, or has sort of been very traditionally. I find so many lawyers, like I talk about happiness and joy because you know, why else are we on this planet? I don't mean it in a trite sense, right? I don't mean it like, I get to have a bowl of ice cream so therefore I'm happy. But more of that deeper sense of feeling like the work that you're doing is meaningful, and finding joy in that. And I'm curious, when you're doing litigation do you feel like you had a joyful life? Is there a way you can have both? Karen Gifford: [00:25:39] I like to think that. I do see a lot that isn't consonant with that, in the way that litigation is practiced today. There's a lot of just you know, things get personal really quickly unfortunately. And kind of the level of professionalism has declined unfortunately. So that's a problem, that's hard you know. I don't want to say that you can just joy your way through that. Jeena Cho: [00:26:19] It's not like a, fake it til you feel it kind of thing. Karen Gifford: [00:26:21] No, and there is a real joy in expressing who you are. And sometimes who you are is a great litigator, right? Joy doesn't have to express itself with puppies and rainbows and flowers. It can also express itself in a great argument or you know, a beautifully presented witness. I've certainly had those moments where I felt that way, and interestingly I think those moments when you really do feel very deeply joyous or contented or happy with how things go in a work setting, they're not the ones where you're saying the nasty thing or scoring a cheap point. They're the ones where you feel like not only are you making your self shine, but you're making the whole system shine. Like if you think about those really big moments in your career, everyone felt uplifted. Jeena Cho: [00:27:33] Regardless of who won or lost, yeah. And I've also had experiences where the client didn't get the outcome that he or she wanted, but felt deeply cared for throughout the case. And somehow they didn't feel more.. You know I think a lot of times when you come out of the litigation system you can feel more broken than when you went in, I think that's the majority of the case. But if you can sort of help your clients through. Karen Gifford: [00:28:03] Oh absolutely. And I can't imagine that for you in a bankruptcy practice, that must have been a huge challenge. Because it's just such a rough time that people are going through. And you've spoken so eloquently about the really heartbreaking sides to a bankruptcy; it's not just a money thing. I think making people feel that the system at least cared about them is a huge step forward. Jeena Cho: [00:28:41] Do you ever miss practicing law? Karen Gifford: [00:28:46] You know, not enough to go back to it. I really loved it when I was doing it, but when I think about practicing law I have that feeling that I was saying before, like I really did with it what I wanted to do. I don't feel like oh, if only I had X, Y, or Z. But it was great, it was great when I was doing it. Jeena Cho: [00:29:15] So for the listeners out there that are considering some sort of transition, either staying in law or out of law. Any particular advice that you might want to offer them? Karen Gifford: [00:29:33] Well, when I was thinking about these changes and they did feel momentous to me, one thing that I told myself was I'm going to make a decision, and it's going to be obvious. The answer is going to be obvious. And I just stuck to that. And you know, there are pluses and minuses in everything you do. And looking back, I think maybe I stuck to practicing law like six months or a year longer than maybe I probably should have. On the other hand, I have the satisfaction of knowing that it was obvious by the time I made that decision, and that worked for me. And so if that's how you're feeling, you're really unsure and you're not comfortable with that, I think you can have the confidence to know that your instincts are going to take you in the right place. And that you can get to a place where you're absolutely comfortable with whatever decision you make, whether it's to stay with the practice, leave, go part-time; whatever variation makes sense for you, your own instincts are going to guide you well. Jeena Cho: [00:30:46] I love that. So the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Karen Gifford: [00:30:55] Oh, that's such an interesting thing to reflect on. I think the practice of law has a lot of challenges. And really, if we take the practice seriously, those challenges can really implicate our core values, implicate what kind of people we want to be, and being resilient in the face of those challenges to me means engaging with them fully, and also staying anchored in our core values and our commitment to ourselves, as well as to all that we want to accomplish. Jeena Cho: [00:31:36] Beautiful, I love that answer. Karen thank you so much for joining me. Karen Gifford: [00:31:42] Thank you Jeena for having me. It's just such a huge pleasure. Jeena Cho: [00:31:48] Thank you for tuning into another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please consider telling a friend. It's really the only way we have to grow the show. Also, why not leave a review on iTunes. It only takes a minute, and really does help with the visibility and promotion of the show. If you have any questions, drop me an email at questions@theresilientlawyer.com. Until next time. Closing: [00:32:14] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

The lack of minorities like people of color, women, and people with disabilities working within the legal industry has long been a topic of discussion but there has been very little progress when it comes to inclusion. In the episode of Legal Toolkit, host Jared Correia talks to Jeena Cho about why there's a lack of diversity in the legal industry, what both individual lawyers and firms are doing about it, and why it's important for legal professionals to care. They also discuss unconscious bias including what it is and how to address it. Jeena Cho is the author of two books: “The Anxious Lawyer, An 8-Week Guide to a Joyful and Satisfying Law Practice Through Mindfulness and Meditation,” and “How to Manage Your Law Office.” Special thanks to our sponsors Scorpion, Answer1, and Thomson Reuters Firm Central.

Hi everyone! Sorry for the long absence. In this episode, I'll talk about what's next for The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Plus, you can listen to the first 20 minutes of The Anxious Lawyer book! It's narrated by myself and my co-author, Karen Gifford. You can purchase the entire book in hardcover, kindle or Audible over on Amazon. http://amzn.to/2l5HNQu Questions? Comments? Drop me an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Sound Credit: http://www.bensound.com/ Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq   MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 5-week program. Spend just 6 minutes everyday to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/gLlo7b

Hi everyone! The Resilient Lawyer has been on a long hiatus because I've been super busy with the book project. I am SO happy to say, the book is out in the world! It's been a l-o-n-g project (3 years). I'm delighted to bring you this new episode with my dear friend, collaborator and co-author of The Anxious Lawyer! She's such an amazing person and this project would not have been possible without her. In this episode, we chat about: FinTech Karen's background — her career, meditation practice Navigating career transitions  Reconciling litigation practice with parenting Importance of having a daily practice Also, The Anxious Lawyer book is now available in Audio! Head on over to Amazon and download it. 

Jennifer Mikulina https://www.mwe.com/en/team/m/mikulina-jennifer-m, partner at McDermott Will & Emery Topics covered: Balancing motherhood and law practice Starting diversity initiative at law firm Why mindfulness is important to Jennifer Future of law Moving away from hourly billing  The Anxious Lawyer book is out! You can order it on Amazon: http://amzn.to/295g8t5 Jeena is also planning a book tour. If you'd like for her to visit your city, please drop her an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! questions@resilientlawyer.com or leave a voicemail at (336) 543-2101. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: theanxiouslawyer.com Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

I recently sat down with Laura Maechtlen on The Resilient Lawyer podcast to chat about her career at Seyfarth Shaw, her work with the LGBT community, and what a more diverse and inclusive workplace truly looks like. Laura is the co-chair of the firm's Diversity and Inclusion initiatives and Vice Chair of the firm's Labor and Employment Department. She leads a number of boards and bar organizations that aim to promote diversity in the legal profession. Connect with Laura on Twitter: https://twitter.com/maechtlen Upcoming events: May 18, 2016: Work Your Resiliency Muscle! Ten Tips to Becoming More Resilient, Free Webinar. Register here.  June 1, 2016: The Anxious Lawyer book event at Fastcase. Please join my co-author, Karen Gifford and me for a book event from 11:30 AM - 1:00 PM. Register here. Jeena is also planning a book tour. If you'd like for her to visit your city, please drop her an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! questions@resilientlawyer.com or leave a voicemail at (336) 543-2101. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: theanxiouslawyer.com Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

This week, I have Katie Phang on the show. She's a litigation attorney in Miami, FL and in addition, she's a legal analyst on Fox. She's also Korean-American so we had a lot to chat about.  Topics covered: Being an Asian-American on popular media How to be a good trial attorney and developing your own style Growing up with "Tiger Mom" Decision to have a child & struggling with infertility Connect with Katie on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KatiePhang Upcoming events: May 18, 2016: Work Your Resiliency Muscle! Ten Tips to Becoming More Resilient, Free Webinar. Register here.  June 1, 2016: The Anxious Lawyer book event at Fastcase. Please join my co-author, Karen Gifford and me for a book event from 11:30 AM - 1:00 PM. Register here. Jeena is also planning a book tour. If you'd like for her to visit your city, please drop her an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! questions@resilientlawyer.com or leave a voicemail at (336) 543-2101. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: theanxiouslawyer.com Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/    

On today's show, I have Ruth Carter! She is a former therapist turned lawyer. She has found her niche law practice by following her interest and passion. We also talked about her long struggle with anxiety and depression. She shares her tips on tools she uses for managing both.  Ruth Carter: http://carterlawaz.com/   The Anxious Lawyer book is here!!! You can pre-order now and get some goodies. For more information, go to: http://bit.ly/20U8JSW Upcoming events: April 29, 2016: Shape the Law, Unconference for women attorneys. shapethelaw.com/ June 1, 2016: The Anxious Lawyer book event at Fastcase. Please join my co-author, Karen Gifford and me for a book event from 11:30 AM - 1:00 PM. Register here. Jeena is also planning a book tour. If you'd like for her to visit your city, please drop her an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! questions@resilientlawyer.com or leave a voicemail at (336) 543-2101. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: theanxiouslawyer.com Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

In this episode, I sat down with Ed Walters, CEO of Fastcase to chat how he came up with the idea of Fastcase, and the early days struggles. We discussed the role data can play in delivering a better experience for clients. In addition, we talked about the importance of not having “free” law but also open law and the lawsuit against Casemaker. Discussed In The Show: Why he started Fastcase Overcoming setbacks and challenges in starting Fastcase Competing with the industry monsters - LexisNexis and Westlaw Next revolution of the legal industry - will it include lawyers? Future of UPL? Document automation How law practice will change in the next 10 years Figuring out what humans can do better than machines: people skills How lawyers should price their services Why law firms should embrace data Importance of correctly guessing the cost of engagements Making PACER more accessible and useful Importance of finding value in tools, not data Difference between free and open law Lawsuit with Casemaker The Anxious Lawyer book is here!!! You can pre-order now and get some goodies. For more information, go to: http://bit.ly/20U8JSW Upcoming events: April 29, 2016: Shape the Law, Unconference for women attorneys. shapethelaw.com/ June 1, 2016: The Anxious Lawyer book event at Fastcase. Please join my co-author, Karen Gifford and me for a book event from 11:30 AM - 1:00 PM. Register here. Jeena is also planning a book tour. If you'd like for her to visit your city, please drop her an email: smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! questions@resilientlawyer.com or leave a voicemail at (336) 543-2101. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: theanxiouslawyer.com Music Credit: freemusicarchive.org and www.bensound.com/

I spoke with Jeena Cho, a San Francisco bankruptcy attorney with JC Law Group, and the co-author of the upcoming book, The Anxious Lawyer: An 8-Week Guide to a Happier, Saner Law Practice Using Meditation (American Bar Association, March 7, 2016). Jeena is also the host of the Resilient Lawyer podcast. We discussed how she balances her law practice and consulting, her inspiration for writing The Anxious Lawyer, what readers expect to take away from it, whether lawyers struggle with achieving happiness, and meditation best practices, among other interesting topics.

Jeena Cho of the Resilient Lawyer Jeena Cho is co-founder of JC Law Group PC, a bankruptcy law firm in San Francisco, CA. She is also the author of the upcoming American Bar Association book, The Anxious Lawyer: An 8-Week Guide to a Happier, Saner Law Practice Using Meditation. She offers training programs on using mindfulness and meditation […] The post MF 18 – Jeena Cho – The Anxious Lawyer turns Mindful Laywer appeared first on Meditation Freedom.

"Every morning that we wake up is an amazing thing that we are given. Every single day of our lives are precious moments and we have no guarantees on how many of those we will have." Jeena Cho is the swiftest Lawyer on the block and she's taking a huge competitive advantage through mindfulness and meditation. After coming to the United States as a young child, she learned to speak English by watching Law and Order? and everything else is domination. She is also an incredible author and is soon to release her newest book The Anxious Lawyer where she teaches the principles and secrets of using mindfulness and meditation to effectively deal with anxiety and stress among the law profession. Since the interview, Jeena and I have become amazing friends and, and I have been practicing her meditations daily (which immediately results in relaxation and fist pumping.) Here are the highlights of my funky conversation with Jeena: / 04:11 : Her family migrating from South Korea in 1988; growing up in Astoria, Queens; and being inspired to fight the evils of the world while learning English through her favorite TV show, Law and Order, / 07:20 : How she got introduced to mediation while in law school but fell out of habit after graduating and how Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) changed her life after she tried it out due to an anxiety disorder diagnosis, / 14:48 : Her favorite part in cultivating a meditation practice, including developing an appreciation of life as she never had before, / 20:58 : The mixed reactions of people in her circle after she started teaching meditation, / 22:17 : About the book she is currently writing, The Anxious Lawyer, an eight-week guided program on how you can bring mindfulness into your everyday life, / 24:20 : The differences of approach in writing The Anxious Lawyer and the first book she had published, and the challenges and inner struggles she faces regularly to finish it, and / 33:12 : A side story from Jeena about her trip to Burning Man and having the realization to pursue what truly makes her happy.