The Resilient Lawyer podcast is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. You'll meet lawyers, entrepreneurs, mentors and teachers successfully bridging the gap between their personal and professional lives, connecting the dots between their mental, emotional, physical and spiritual selves. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference.
Jeena Cho - Author of The Anxious Lawyer
https://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause Discount Code: Resilient2020
Mindful Pause discount code: resilient2020
In this episode, I am excited to have on Sona Tatiyants to talk about building and growing her all-female law firm while navigating life changes. Sona is the founder of Lynk Law, Inc., a law firm (including an all-female staff of seven) dedicated to servicing families and businesses with their estate planning needs. She is also a co-founder of The Exchange LA and a board member of the Glendale Education Foundation. In addition to an incredibly rewarding career, Sona is most proud of being part of her local community with her husband Alex and their two young daughters, Emily and Elis. Topics Covered Creating a practice that you want, and why and how she started her law practice nine years ago after transitioning out of a toxic work environment. Changing gears in your practice - as her life and priorities change so does her practice. She gives us an inside look into what her practice looked like when she started, and what it looks like now. How pursuing her passion has made her a better lawyer, and how she has incorporated baking into her practice of law. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have on Rielly Karsh to talk about reframing the conversation around politics and motherhood, and why having more moms in positions of leadership matters. Mom motivator and kid wrangler, Rielly is a former attorney, photographer, and passionate community leader. Lately, she answers to mom and councilwoman. An elected official in Clinton, NJ, where she lives with her husband and two kids, Rielly is dedicated to increasing the political engagement of moms at every level of the political landscape, helping them "run like a mother." Topics Covered Her journey running for office and why having more moms in positions of leadership matter. Why we need more moms to run for office AND serve in leadership roles on campaigns, and how to deal with the nagging feelings of self-doubt. How the process of running for office starts, and what tools Moms Running offers to women to get more moms to run for office. How we help moms and society see beyond the label "just a mom," and see value in who they are and what they do. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this bonus episode, I share 3 concrete strategies for working with the negative inner chatter or the "inner critic." Please join me for my 6 week 20-minute Beyond Anxiety Workshop from 10:30 – 10:50 AM PST starting Monday, August 5th. I'll be sharing with you with concrete strategies you can immediately implement and each class will have a short exercise that you can do throughout the week. Register here: https://jeenacho.com/workshop
In this bonus episode, I share how to use the body scan meditation to soothe the worried and anxious mind. Please join me for my 6 week 20-minute Beyond Anxiety Workshop from 10:30 – 10:50 AM PST starting Monday, August 5th. I'll be sharing with you with concrete strategies you can immediately implement and each class will have a short exercise that you can do throughout the week. Register here: https://jeenacho.com/workshop
In this episode, I am excited to have Jessica Hylton-Leckie on to talk about her journey from law to food blogging, and the resiliency of being a black female entrepreneur. Jessica is the author of the online cookbook "It's That Easy," which helps readers easily transition to a plant-based lifestyle. She is also the founder of Jessica in the Kitchen, a multi award-winning vegetarian and vegan recipe website, sharing hundreds of whole foods recipes. Jessica has been featured in numerous interviews and websites, including ESSENCE's July 2017 issue, The Huffington Post, SELF magazine, Buzzfeed, Yahoo! Food, and many more. Topics Covered Her history in law and baking, what switching from law to food blogging looked like for her, as well as what her business model and average day looks like. How she successfully switched, unexpected challenges she came across, and how she found her tribe and community. The different aspects and skills that go into being a blogger, and how she finds herself using the skills she learned in law school in her business every day. Find out more about Jessica at: Jessica in The Kitchen website Facebook Twitter Instagram Youtube Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have on Katy Young to continue our parenting series on what her IVF treatment journey looked like while managing her firm and caseload. Katy represents plaintiffs and defendants in business and real estate disputes, including matters for cannabis industry litigants. She graduated from University of the Pacific, and then she went to University of San Francisco for law school. She is a Northern California Super Lawyer Rising Star for 2014 through 2019. In 2018, she was named to Benchmark Litigation's 40 & Under Hot List. She is also the President of the National Cannabis Bar Association. Topics Covered Both how she found herself working in cannabis law and what that growing segment of law looks like from the inside. What infertility treatments look like while practicing law, and dealing with the associated impatience while having a breast cancer scare that postponed her treatments. How she balanced running her firm, managing her caseload, and the emotional energy that it takes to go through IVF at the same time. Find out more about Katy at: Astra Legal Facebook Twitter Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have on Allison Holzman to continue our parenting series on her journey balancing her career in family law and her 2 sons as a single-by-choice mother. Allison is an attorney at Weinberger Divorce and Family Law Group, a midsize firm in New Jersey. She has been practicing for nearly 18 years and has focused exclusively on family law since 2002. Allison is also a single mom by choice to two adorable boys, ages 2 and 3 months, who make sure her life is never boring. When she isn't running after her boys, she enjoys pilates, Netflix, and warm chocolate chip cookies! Topics Covered Being a single mom by choice as a practicing attorney and the steps one would take in starting down a single mom by choice path. Single mom does not just mean "get some sperm" - Allison goes into the online dating-like process of finding a donor and the many facets of control she had in deciding on the best candidate. Strategies for coping with the loss of pregnancies, and dealing with the waiting and rising out-of-pocket costs. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have on Nancy Giles to talk about her journey from big law to starting her own practice and balancing running a practice as a parent. Nancy created Giles Law, PLLC to support, advise, and represent businesses facing legal issues and conflicts. Nancy considers herself a member of her firm's clients' teams, staying in close contact with them to keep their goals and strategies in focus. Equipped with 20 years of experience in commercial litigation, Nancy and her team use inventive and efficient solutions to create exceptional results. Topics Covered Starting out in "Big Law," looking back on the major differences between the different types of law practices, and what her transition looked like. How she ended up being a happy litigator, happy mother, and happy business owner. How her personal journey affected her work and both how she found herself co-parenting and what that looks like for her. What advice she would give to other lawyers feeling stuck, uninspired, or worse. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have on Lauren Brunswick to continue to explore parenthood, IVF treatments, and the different, individual journeys we find ourselves on in navigating parenthood as practicing attorneys. Lauren is corporate counsel at a national nonprofit organization. She previously practiced law with a large international law firm and a boutique law firm. She is a graduate of Brown University and the University of Pennsylvania School of Law. She lives in Miami with her husband and one-year-old miracle baby, Isabella. Topics Covered Her story on wanting to have a child, navigating the "lawyer timeline" of building her career, and continuing to practice while trying to start and be present with a family. Things she wished she knew before she started her fertility journey - what would she tell her younger self? Tips for navigating the world of fertility treatments while practicing law. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have on Stephanie Holland to talk about career, home, and personal changes to revolutionize what the modern working lawyer parent looks like. Stephanie is a labor and employment attorney with Ernest Law Group in Virginia Beach. She practiced law in Washington, DC for 11 years, then left a stable, well-paying job last summer to build a practice from scratch in Virginia, and find a path with a balance between work and home life. Topics Covered Changing legal markets from a large city to a much smaller market. Going from a salaried position at a mid-sized firm to an "eat what you kill" arrangement, the business model that comes with that arrangement, and what that looks like in terms of balancing work, social, and parenting life. Developing boundaries with work after not having any for years (inspired by having a little one), and realizing you don't want to be like your mentors. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Emily Markos on to talk about fighting anxiety and finding peace through mindfulness. Emily graduated from Rutgers Camden School of Law in 2010. After graduation she clerked in the US District Court in Pennsylvania, and then spent 6 years as a general commercial civil litigator. In 2014 she became a mom, and in 2017 she left private practice to work for the Social Security Administration. She has recently incorporated a mindfulness practice in her life through yoga, and has found a lot of peace and happiness through that practice. Topics Covered Yoga as a mindfulness practice, some misconceptions about yoga, and what to look for if you want to try yoga or if you are looking to deepen your existing practice. Understanding EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) and how it is used to help process and reprogram trauma. Some of the common causes of anxiety in lawyers, and discussion on coping skills that can be developed to manage that anxiety and find peace. Postpartum depression and anxiety, erasing the stigma and being open about it. Tips and suggestions to make time for things as a mom and lawyer. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Heather Weigler to talk about the importance of prioritizing yourself after motherhood - to be a better you and a better lawyer. Heather is a lawyer and stand-up comedian in Portland, Oregon. She works for the Oregon Department of Justice as a Senior Assistant Attorney General, regulating charities and their fundraisers. She also serves on her union's executive committee and volunteers with Oregon Women Lawyers and the Campaign for Equal Justice. She got her start in comedy at a fundraiser for Legal Aid and has since performed in Portland, Los Angeles, Palm Springs, and Las Vegas. Topics Covered Recognizing and dealing with post-partum depression and anxiety, and ways to manage through a regiment of wellness and medication. What work-life balance really means when re-learning to take care of yourself, and reducing the stigma of taking a step back from work so you can regroup and come back at 110%. Finding yourself after motherhood, and how she uses stand-up comedy to be both a better lawyer and a better parent. How she went about forgiving herself for being "imperfect." Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Dineen Pashoukos Wasylik on to talk about being an active mother and lawyer, and how utilizing the morning hours can revolutionize your days and allow you to maximize your billable hours. Dineen is the founder of DPW Legal in Tampa, Florida, a boutique intellectual property and appellate litigation firm where her team helps entrepreneurs protect everything that they have worked so hard to create and protects litigants in appellate courts. She is the only lawyer in Florida who is board certified both in intellectual property and in appellate practice. Dineen's husband is also a lawyer-entrepreneur, and they have two teen sons. Topics Covered What her self-care practice looks like and what willing yourself to be a morning person can look like so you can carve out time for your personal health. Fighting the sedentary lawyer nature and utilizing exercise as a key element to mental clarity. Putting yourself first while parenting teens. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Jaime Knepper on to talk about how she found balance between her fulfilling career and wonderful family through a transition from law. Jaime is a federal government employee specializing in federal energy market regulation. Her current position is the inverse of her first legal career, advising regulated utilities and pipelines on compliance with federal requirements. Jaime is also married to a wonderful feminist who takes on more than his share of the mental load, and mom to a 3-year-old boy and 11-month-old girl. Topics Covered Deciding if/when to have children, and the difference between not wanting children and wanting children with the right person. How she says she is able to have a fulfilling law career and raise her children due to her supportive husband, and how as lawyers finding the right partner is important for maintaining a work/life balance. Work/life balance – transitioning careers from a law firm to a government position, from the hectic firm to a more family-friendly job. Law school - would she do it again, and advice for people wanting to go to law school. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
Please join me for a 1-hour webinar on January 24th. I'll go over how mindfulness can help you: Reduce stress and anxiety Boost productivity and focus Reduce mind wandering Let go of negative self-talk Relax the thinking mind Register here: https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/
In this episode, I am excited to have Jessica Glassburn on to talk about juggling career transitions and motherhood. Jessica grew up in Washington D.C. but has spent most of her adult life in the Midwest. She has practiced in family law and worked in law school admissions offices, and currently works as the Program Chair for Paralegal and Legal Studies at Ivy Tech Community College in Fort Wayne, Indiana. She has been happily married for 4 ½ years with an almost 14-year-old, a 2-year-old, and their dog. Topics Covered Career transitions, defining your identity outside of the law, and shifting and balancing your career with family. The trials of online dating, getting married later in life, and dealing with infertility. How her surprise adoption came about and the process of being there for her adopted son's birth. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Jennifer Day on to talk about breaking down the stigma that comes with depression and how lawyers are susceptible. Jennifer graduated from law school in 2004. She served as a judicial law clerk in Anchorage, Alaska, then became a prosecutor in 2005 and has never looked back. She has prosecuted a variety of cases, and has also presented on the topic of depression amongst prosecutors across the state of California for the past few years. Her spare time is spent with her family, or you can find her out on a photography adventure. Topics Covered Managing clinical depression with work life, and how much to share at work about being clinically depressed. How depression manifests itself to her, and how she recognizes it. The stigma of discussing depression amongst prosecutors. The difference between compassion fatigue and clinical depression. How it was harder to come out as depressed than it was to come out as gay. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Alexis Robertson on to talk about the balance of self-care: remaining dutiful to responsibilities without martyring yourself for your work. Alexis is a lawyer turned Diversity and Inclusion professional. She attended the University of Michigan law school and practiced for 7 ½ years at Kirkland & Ellis and Seyfarth Shaw, before leaving practice to become a legal recruiter and subsequently a Diversity and Inclusion professional at Baker & McKenzie. Outside of work, if Alexis isn't listening to a podcast or wrangling her two sons, she can probably be found at her local pilates studio. Topics Covered How big firm lawyers are like pro-athletes and as such, we have to focus on our personal health to perform at our peak. The benefits of receiving formal instruction in meditation (versus self-guided), and the importance of finding a way to meditate that is right for you. The role of meditation/self-care when you have children, and how it helps with combating the knee-jerk reactive mind in stressful situations. Why meditation/mindset is just as important as physical fitness and nutrition. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/ MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
Please join me for a 1-hour webinar on December 20th. I'll go over how mindfulness can help you: Reduce stress and anxiety Boost productivity and focus Reduce mind wandering Let go of negative self-talk Relax the thinking mind Register here: https://jeenacho.com/podcastwebinar/
In this episode, I am excited to have Marcus Shute, Jr. on to talk about staying true to yourself and what makes you unique as a lawyer, as compared to the "rubber-stamped" version of what a lawyer should look like. Shute is a sports and entertainment attorney at the Shute Law Office in Nashville, TN. He enjoys leveraging his first-hand experiences and acquired knowledge of the law to shape the legacy of his clients, and his passion for providing legal services for the sports and entertainment industries stems from his love of playing sports and musical instruments. Topics Covered What obstacles he has faced based solely on his appearance, and instances where he has been pressured to alter his appearance or conform. How owning who you are can turn some people off to you, but will help bring you closer to your tribe of those that will be drawn to you. Choosing to enjoy the work you do and shaping your practice in a way that gives you a sense of contentment. How recent tragedies inspired him to overcome some of the intrinsic prejudices his looks can garner in a courtroom and add criminal law to his practice. Learn more and connect with Marcus at: Website Twitter Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:00:01] Inclusion for me began with being able to have a dialogue with somebody and being open with them. And so I use my hair sometimes as a way to start the conversation, to say well let's just challenge these norms that you believe are required to be successful. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today for another episode of the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. I am excited to have Marcus Shute, Jr. on to talk about staying true to yourself and what makes you unique as a lawyer, as compared to the “rubber-stamped” version of what a lawyer should look like. Shute is a sports and entertainment attorney at the Shute Law Office in Nashville, TN. He enjoys leveraging his first-hand experiences and acquired knowledge of the law to shape the legacy of his clients, and his passion for providing legal services for the sports and entertainment industries stems from his love of playing sports and musical instruments. In this episode, we're going to chat about staying true to yourself and perhaps not looking like the rubber stamp version of what a lawyer should look like. I think you'll really enjoy this episode. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Marcus. Marcus, welcome to the show. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:02:25] Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:28] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:02:35] So as you did say, my name is Marcus Shute, Jr. I am a sports and entertainment attorney here in Nashville Tennessee. I'm made of Nashville you know, went to high school here. Moved to Georgia for a brief minute and came back for undergrad and opened up my law practice as soon as I passed the bar. Jeena Cho: [00:02:53] Wow that is a big jump in anxiety. I'm kind of attracted media and want me to chat with you. Is that you all sort of built a brand around you know who you are and especially how you look. So maybe for the listeners out there that, of course, can't speak. Can you just started to describe you know what you look like and what you know your client might see when they come in for their first client interview Jeena Cho: [00:03:50] So you know I certainly remember when I was in law school there was and I went to law school back in the 2000s and there was sort of a lot of talk about you know confirming that you want to look like a lawyer or you want to dress the part. And you know I know that I certainly spent a lot of time sort of trying to look the part I was an assistant state attorney immediately after graduating from law school. And you know when I start and put on a suit and especially because I had to sort of be in the courtroom all the time and I didn't want to be mistaken for you know a court reporter or a Korean language interpreter. So I'm curious you know like Did you ever feel like you felt the pressure to conform you know to cut off your dreads or to cover up your tattoos. Of course, she can't really do much about the color of your skin or your height. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:04:41] Right you're right. Yes. So I did. And actually, it started you know back when I was an undergrad so I was an undergrad in the 2000s and I had a teacher a professor you know say to me that hey if you plan on pursuing your career in law that you're probably going to have to cut your hair. Most law firms won't accept you. And at the time I was a student athlete so I was hoping that I would go pro but it didn't work out that way. So I was still adamant in opposition about why I don't think that I should have to make that change of who I am to fit in or to still practice law. So and also again in law school. I also was told by some teachers there that I should consider changing my hairstyle to fit in to make sure that I'd be able to advance forward in different law firms. So those are things I face. And like you going into courtrooms wanting to make sure that I look the part of an attorney was something I was conscious of because I didn't want my clients you know my potential client in the future to be impacted by somebody presuming that you know I'm not an attorney because I look like I could be a defendant. Jeena Cho: [00:06:00] Right. Well I mean well I guess to back up a little bit. So at what point were you like I am not cutting off my tights and I'm not going to try to look like the rubber stamp fashion of what a billion looks like. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:06:15] I would say in my undergraduate years is kind of when I got that foundation. Now OK this is kind of who I am like most people when they're going through undergrad. You know you're away from your parents is your first time being on your own. So you are learning a lot about yourself. And you know I learned a lot about my history and it was something that is so important for me personally and also it also started conversations so for me you know when we talk about inclusion and I know we'll probably talk about that later but it's inclusion for me began with being able to have a dialogue with somebody being open worker and so I use my hair sometimes as a way to start the conversation to say well let's challenge these norms that you believe are required to be successful. I would say definitely no undergrad. Jeena Cho: [00:08:36] And I think you know do you think the reverse is also how some people are going to look at you look at your Web site and be like Yup he's not only my lawyer. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:08:45] Absolutely. I mean so I mentioned I taught high school so I taught Spanish in government when I taught there. And so you can imagine you know young African-American boys and girls that see somebody who looks like them. They can talk like them but they can also speak another language. And I think that's the same thing that applies to my law practice. When I recruit players or musicians or writers or I go to a writers workshop and my kind of blend in and almost look like I could be one of them and then when I say hey I'm an attorney. Let's talk about you know what you're doing as they do some research and like you said to go to my website and almost immediately feel like they're drawn to me because they can relate to me instantly. Jeena Cho: [00:11:58] You know. Yeah. And especially as lawyers you know there is so much pressure to look the part of a lawyer and that you know and to have a certain type of job and strange type of prestige and you know just on and on and often that's like the end ingredient or unhappiness you know like you. And you can kind of get on that treadmill of just checking all the boxes. But then someplace you look up and you're like wow I'm really unhappy and I think that unhappiness that this content comes from being completely out of touch with yourself you know. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:12:36] So true. So true. Like you know when you are taking the boxes like where I have to do this or I have to drive this type of car I had to practice this type of way where I had to have my office set up this type away and you start running trying to achieve all those goals that you think our goals. And then once you do that you will go back and say wow I'm on the field and that's another thing that you know makes it makes it easier for me to do what I do because I want to enjoy what I do. I wanted to be a passion and I want to feel like I'm just going in punching the clock. I want to you know look forward to every day when I'm getting up to go to work. This is what I'm choosing to do and I enjoy it. Jeena Cho: [00:13:14] So yeah will say more about that about choosing to enjoy the work that you do on shaping your practice in a way that gives you that sense of contentment. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:13:26] So it would help to give a little context of why I chose sports entertainment. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies before been a store manager. And you know I've worked for other companies and help you know reach their goals and metrics and indeed will perform well. But you know I was frustrated because I felt like I was in the field and it didn't bring me joy. It was like oh I did I did something well. I don't feel good about you know what I did. So when I started to look at what area of law I wanted to practice or you know being an attorney period I wanted it to be something that I enjoy doing where there wouldn't be a time where I look up to say I'm frustrated. I'm angry with what I'm doing because if pay if I am then that means I need to refocus on what it is that I chose to do because it's all up to me. [00:14:19] And that's part of the reason why I opted to start my own practice and the law firm as opposed to going to join a big law firm. Although I interviewed I knew that I would be working you know 50 60 hours a week. At the direction of my superiors, whatever case came to the door that you would be my job for the time being. And I learned that if I could find a way to choose the things that I enjoy and it relates to my law practice then it won't feel like work I'll just be challenging myself to be a better version of myself to learn more about certain areas of law and those things have been very helpful. You know it helps keep you away from that thing. We were just talking about checking out those boxes because I'm not looking for accolades because it's my personal enjoyment it's not you know I need a B.A. you know top layer 100 in this area practice because that's not what drives me you know. Jeena Cho: [00:15:20] Yeah. And I always find those warrants are so strange because it's like you pay for it. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:15:29] Right now. Jeena Cho: [00:15:32] Like you're like that and whatever and superstar lawyer and we want you to pass. And in fact, it's like now. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:15:39] Right. Or they give you a tour you go pay a hundred bucks to get Lycett or 250 for this nice little placard 30 50 for a little mini there. And it's like it's you know ego. I don't know how you go. Someone once told me ego means edging God out. And you know just not thinking and the idea that you know it's bigger than you. So what I do is intentional so having my hair like it is having my tattoos like they are is intentional because it's bigger than me it's for those that come behind me so that the obstacles that I face they won't have to. Jeena Cho: [00:16:14] Yeah. Talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that do face because of you know your locks. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:16:21] Yeah. So one particular incident that has kind of been my driving point in WA opened up my practice to criminal law. When I was in law school I interned with a law office and went to court. And when the recess was about to happen the attorney that I was practicing under wanted me to aim once to introduce me to the judge. And so she got the judge's attention and said you know this is Mr. shooty is pregnant under Rule 7 with our office. And the response from the judge in open court was oh I thought that was your client. And it was very disheartening because I had been there all morning had spoken to her on some other Clines cases and so, of course, there were people in the courtroom. So immediately I felt ashamed because of her perception of me and for the beginning of my practice, I didn't do a lot of criminal work because I always would assume that everybody would have her same perception. And so it wasn't until she knows some of the tragedies like Michael Brown Eric Garner happened. I felt inspired to get involved in the criminal justice system and with a law degree what better way than to defend those that are innocent. And so that that would really launch me into it. Now you know I have a very successful you know area of law practice in criminal defense and a lot of that goes to. To me, I think that it helps to change the perception of police officers that I have to question in cross-examination when looking at somebody that normally in their line of work they only are arrested. And now they're having to look at this same type of description that they normally get as an attorney that questions them. So those are some things I'd definitely say some of those obstacles. You know sometimes when I go to different courthouses they don't know that I don't frequent ally sometimes security guards may ask me for my bar card different things like that. But you know just kind of comes with the territory. I've accepted that I will say some of those obstacles. And for me, it's about how I go how I am able to overcome them because I know that someone is always watching and the way that I know proceed through dealing with those obstacles will help somebody else. Jeena Cho: [00:18:44] Yeah. So how do you deal with that? You know how do you deal with watching you know five white Villiers just get way Theriault and then you come up and he's like can I use your marker and I'm presuming you're in a suit like you're in a court and walked it. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:19:00] Absolutely yeah absolutely. Jeena Cho: [00:19:02] How do you deal with that. You said when you say you know I've learned how to overcome those obstacles like what does it look like. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:19:10] So you know the thing to be learned is you can say a lot of things untrue and it's about how you say. So there are some signs where we say speak the truth in love or you know even if you can joke about it a little bit and not take it to heart that they haven't been exposed to a lot of different cultures. For me I was exposed a lot of different cultures and growing up I went to magnet schools and so I learned Spanish at a young age because I was just interested in the culture and because of that, it taught me to respect people that were different from me. Everybody doesn't have that same upbringing. So when you know the security guard say Can I see your bar card as you know out may laugh at him and say Did you forget to ask. You know the other guys are there. And then they may smile sheepishly or something like that and or I may say this new policy that we're doing now. Do we ask everyone you know and if not they try to do it in a way that makes them feel comfortable to wear it? [00:20:18] They will want to respond because then by me asking them that openly question it. It challenges them to give me an answer and they don't want to say oh because you're the black guy because you know you know so you know. But even then a month and then once I do show them your car they never forget me. So that's true and that's why I've learned you know because there were times where I and I have to be honest I'm very transparent. There are times where I didn't respond as well where I would respond with anger and frustration. And I had to learn that that's not the best way for me to handle it. Because what could happen to me. And then too it's a teachable moment for them. So give them the opportunity to learn. Jeena Cho: [00:21:03] Yeah. How do you deal with that, when you're in the courtroom and a juror mistakes you for the defendant? Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:21:10] You know that that was the only time that has happened that I have not had it happened before. I think that now for it at least and most of the courts that are practically in the middle Tennessee area. I've met a lot of the clerks and there are some judges that I haven't been in front of him and some just for good that I have been there from them before there one judge or particular that introduces himself to me every time I mean it's more that I go maybe every two or three months and he's always like Well welcome to the core of this issue in his car just kind of puts her head down like I know I know. [00:21:45] Like we e-mail a lot. So you know sometimes it happens and you know because they're in the position that they're here. You know I always will defer to give them that grace because again at the end of the day I'm advocating for someone else and I have to always keep that in mind. And I want to keep their interest you know at the top of my list. And so you there if there is if it is a time where they say something they do something now wait till the case is concluded and then I'll go speak to the judge in chambers. Jeena Cho: [00:22:18] What do you say when you go into chambers. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:22:21] So I'll just ask. You know I got out asked Mike like the one, in particular, that doesn't remember me when we go back to our side. Now I know I don't come here a lot but you know you would think they would be looking at me. You remember me at all the others that come up here and most of the time with their state they laughed like them and said oh you know I just want you know some you know something and I wasn't paying attention. I was looking at the next case or you know and then we just talk about you know other things I use that as an opportunity to advocate for things that I think to change in the law and get their perspective. So sometimes by their mistakes gives me insight and you know gives me a little bit more information that I otherwise may not have got. Had they not made the blunder. Jeena Cho: [00:23:07] Yeah and I think how you handle those moments. It's tricky. It's hard. I mean I you know I've never been mistaken for a defendant probably examination female and you know we don't fit that stereotype. But I have been mistaken for you know whatever various Asian language interpreter or-or you know the paralegal and you know I think those type of experiences can really like wear you down if you're not careful about it. You know you internalize that and not have these conversations with my white male lawyer colleagues and know like what's a big deal. You know you brush it off and I'm like but you don't understand what walking into a place and people assume things about you just based on your look how that can just get really you know it just wears sign you and I had to say you know I can either allow this to really impact me or-or I can choose a different response. But it's not you know it's not always easy and sometimes I feel really frustrated by those sort of like what's the big deal. You I just laugh it off like but that doesn't happen to you when you when have you ever been mistaken for the defendant or the language you know the language interpreter or that you know the paralegal. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:24:32] Right yeah. So I'm a male. And so I've never been in the position of a woman before. And so I have two daughters and now that I have daughters and of course with you know the need to move and leave things in a different perspective than I would before I had children and a daughter specifically because I have three younger sisters and even still some of my perspectives was a male privilege perspective. And a lot of times like even hearing you talk about her you know white male colleagues when they say just brush it off or this or just there. [00:25:04] I've seen myself do that too when or if a woman tells me something and says You know I feel this way about you know how that may interact with me and I would say wow I never would have considered that because I'm a male. So I don't know what it's like to be in your position. And so it is sometimes when I hear like I hear somebody or special specifically you know white male white male colleagues I believe that because of how I live they feel comfortable with asking me questions about things that they may be looking at from a lens that's not respectful of everybody else's experience. And so I use that as an opportunity to try to tell them why we're here is why it's so exhausting. Because when you get waved through I get stopped and I get one did not have to take my bill call and I it slows down my day and not only that you get to look like this great guy. Turun just as waved through and this guy's got to take off his clothes pretty much to get to security. And so it's the perception of who's the attorney that you want to deal with. Right. The guy has waved through the looks like he is buddy buddy with everybody or the guy that didn't treat like he's trying to get on the airplane to get into the court. And so I definitely can appreciate that the sentiment that you feel about when they tell you to get away with this dog is ok it's not a big deal. And so for me, I did try to keep my try to be respectful for other people's experiences because I don't know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes. And I think that oftentimes that that value is held by those who are in the minority. It's really all about those that are in the majority. Jeena Cho: [00:26:47] So yeah I think that you know is a person of color and it teaches you to be empathetic. I think if you're sort of in that super majority and you are always sort of given all of these privileges that is something I choose it like not I mean like I've you know I've had these conversations with my colleague and they're just like sometimes I'll get like this like this like disbelief like I really just can't believe it that happens to you all the time. Like butter. Yes. Because I think we all kind of have this assumption that the way that we experience the world is how everybody else experiences the world right. And you know and I often feel like this is sort of what happens when we talk about you know like police misconduct is like well I've never had a negative interaction with the police. I just like the right here. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:27:45] That's what's so true. And in that we're in Nassau we're having it is where the devices on that specific subject because there are people that feel like certain areas of national or over the police. And you know they feel threatened when the police are around there other people they feel like well that's you know who is come to for help or who I go to for help and I take my child with right along. So it's so different you know to have those different perspectives and that's why I always encourage people to just you know try to take a look from their perception her position to see what it's like from their perspective because you never know what it's like for someone else. And when you genuinely take the time to understand you know what they've been dealing with and you may change your mind. Like I say I tell my friends like I don't. I don't get on Facebook to say what my priest my position is on one where or another because I think most times people use their platform to read. Jeena Cho: [00:28:46] Like reinforcing bullies. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:28:48] Yes. Yes exactly. Exactly that's it. That's what it's for. Because you want them to like it and agree with you to make you feel better about it but you really don't want to engage in a dialogue to help you learn something that you know maybe differ in the way that you've been taught. So but I think that you know that those are having those conversations are helpful to try to shift the world's perception. Jeena Cho: [00:29:12] Yeah. So Marcus, for the listeners out there that want to check you out or want to learn more about you, where's the best place for them to do that? Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:29:25] So the best place is on my website, that'll be shutelaw.com. Jeena Cho: [00:29:36] So Marcus before I let you go, one final question for you. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:29:53] So to me to be a resilient lawyer to someone that knows who they are. And still, allow that to dictate how they move in their life and in their practice of law when they face challenges and obstacles in the field that there may be feeling defeated to revisit those values again. What brought you to their place to want to be inspired to move forward as you do? So that's what a resilient lawyer would be to me. Jeena Cho: [00:30:22] Marcus, thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:30:26] Jeena, thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it. Closing: [00:30:34] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Brittany Allison on to talk about how to find joy as a diverse attorney and how to pursue a career you will enjoy. Brittany is a corporate associate at Greenberg Traurig. She focuses on mergers and acquisitions and strategic transactions in healthcare and private equity. Topics Covered Pursuing big changes to build a practice and career you enjoy, that aligns with your skill set, and where you can provide value. What the on-going process of determining how you want your career and practice to look like moving forward can look like. Exercising self-awareness, self-reflection, and purposeful decision-making to find fulfillment in law practice. Building confidence as a diverse attorney. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Brittany Allison: [00:00:03] For me, my mindfulness practice has been very helpful for identifying the feeling that I'm having, and the next step from there is why am I feeling that way. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. I am so happy to have Brittany Allison. She is a corporate associate at Greenberg Traurig. She focuses on mergers and acquisitions and strategic transactions in healthcare and private equity. Today we're going to chat about how she finds that sense of meaning and purpose in life, and also her experience as a corporate attorney. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Brittany. Brittany, welcome to the show. Brittany Allison: [00:02:00] Thank you so much for having me Jeena. Jeena Cho: [00:02:02] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Brittany Allison: [00:02:09] So as you mentioned I'm currently a transactional attorney at the law firm Greenberg Traurig. I focus on health care and private equity mergers acquisitions and other transaction and I came from a Healthcare Regulatory background. I've worked in-house as well as in law firms. I'm licensed in New York, Washington, D.C. and most recently in Florida. As far as who I am. I'm someone who values both my professional and my outside of work life. I'm someone who strives to make thoughtful and purposeful choices and to pursue success but also happiness and fulfillment. I'm also a diverse attorney and a child of immigrants and for fun I enjoyed venture traveling and being outdoors. Jeena Cho: [00:02:54] Kerry started by chatting about how you go about intentionally creating a career that you enjoy that aligns with your skill sets and also gives you that sense of purpose and value. And that's a really big question. So I guess maybe to start you know at what point did you decide you know this is important to me I'm not going to just let life happen to me but I'm going to be very intentional about how I build a practice that I enjoy. I feel like a lot of lawyers don't really give much thought to that. Brittany Allison: [00:03:29] I think that's exactly right. And I think for me when I was working at a previous law firm it was it was really kind of apparent that we should be thinking about moving forward in business development. You know how we can improve upon our careers. And it just it just kind of hit me that I should really be looking a little bit deeper and if I'm starting to have those conversations professionally I'm starting to have those conversations internally. I really wanted to make sure that I was moving in a direction that I wanted to take my career and that I felt like my career would with my personality with my skills that I would really be able to add value and I could see the kind of the career that I that I had in mind and take the direction. Jeena Cho: [00:04:20] Q I would say more specifically about what that process looks like. Like I think it's one thing to say you know I have decided that having a career that enjoys is important to me. And so I've made those things a priority. But on a day to day or let's say a week to week or even month to month Hector like what doesn't. How does that look? Brittany Allison: [00:04:43] So I started the process really just kind of making the LIST mentally and then making actual physical with of what I enjoyed what I did not enjoy as much the things that interested me the thing that excited me about law practice and some of the things that I was doing that I thought were purposeful and meaningful but did not really fit who I was or where I thought I could add the most value. So you know it's kind of an ongoing process and it is for me a day to day or week to week process to really kind of sit down with myself for maybe an hour a week depending on how busy I am on home and just say just check in with myself and recognize those feelings when for example I'm really excited when a deal closes or. You know I really feel like I use my skills for effective communication throughout the field. It's a process of self-reflection that I think you know can is important to take the time out of your week to sit down and check in with yourself on those things and have that information where you want to take your practice going forward I think we don't always take the time out. You know the time out to sit down with ourselves and go over the things that we're doing sometimes it can kind of be like you're on one of those moving walkways and you just know where you're supposed to be going and you may have metrics for how you can get there and how you can succeed on the path that you're on. But you don't always take the time out to say is this the path I want to be on. Is this something that I'm actually enjoying is this something that I can actually see in terms of a direction from my career or am I just on that moving walkway. Jeena Cho: [00:06:41] You know I often hear from bank law attorneys especially those that are more junior and I think sometimes it can be difficult to find that sense of meaning in them. Especially when you're on a big team and you're working on this huge mega deal so your portion of what you're working on might seem very mundane. Then it's hard to even see the whole picture in terms of how your work contributes to the larger project. So I'm curious if that's an experience that you've had and also how you go about finding meaning and you know in some of the more grindy air projects and I think a lot of lives just like that you know it's just very like grindy. Brittany Allison: [00:07:28] Yeah I mean there is certain kind of days or weeks or months of the project where you may not feel kind of as inspired. But I think the way that you keep that motivation going at least for me I'll be kind of my personal experience is I really love the feeling of being on a team and reaching that finish point and kind of knowing that that's coming. And I think part of finding a practice that that fits your personality is you enjoy a lot of those day to day. And you also are able because you're so interested because you feel like it's a great fit you're able to engage kind of outside of the day today. So you know you're able to take a few minutes out sit down with the shareholder and talk about when you think we'll get to closing or what do you think are some of the big issues that are still on the table or how do you think we're going to be able to solve this problem. Even if you're not the person doing that even if you're are a person, for example, drafting that language or bringing a deal over the finish line if you're engaged and you enjoy what you're doing you know there are those opportunities. And for me, I want to get for that kind of conversation. And you know that that certainly helps me to be motivated and to keep in perspective that. Sure I might not have the biggest role on a certain transaction but I have a role and I'm happy to be part of that team. And I'm interested to learn more about it. Jeena Cho: [00:09:17] Either things that you do outside of work that also gives you that sense of meaning and purpose in life. I also have I know for me at least for the first at least a decade it was just all like kind of work. And as I got older I was like OK. Like I can't expect to work to fill all of those needs that I am a multidimensional human being and not all those other needs. You know creativity or you know that I have to have a sort of hobbies and other things that I do outside of work. So I'm curious how you balance that. Brittany Allison: [00:09:59] Sure absolutely. I'm a nature lover. I recently moved back to Florida and South Florida. I love going to the beach. I love hiking. My last trip was to Colorado to go hiking kayaking in stand up paddleboard. I love getting outside I love being in nature. I also really love spending time with my friends my family and my partner and a lot of times most of the time those conversations have nothing to do with law practice you know and there were other things that we're interested in. So there definitely and know as I mentioned kind of at the beginning I really value my time outside of the office as well. Kind of focus on the focus on some other things and focus on my personal relationship. Jeena Cho: [00:10:50] And they will sort of wrap things up but this question. And you know any now on top of the interview you mentioned that you identify yourself as a first attorney and I am one as well. Now I'm curious how you go about finding your voice or finding that sense of belonging or you know you're just your confidence is that they burst attorney or if you have advice for other papers attorneys out there. Brittany Allison: [00:11:17] I thought a lot about this one because you know you hear a lot about things like impostor syndrome. And I've certainly experienced kind of some of those attacks. And I think everyone goes through moments of insecurity. So I think kind of my advice here is twofold. If you're worried that you can't really relate to someone else you know in a professional environment I have found that ironically enough focusing on the work really helps to start a conversation. So I may not be able to find commonality with someone else kind of just on the outset but I can only talk to that person about their practice. [00:12:06] I can always talk to that person about what it is they're doing what it what it is they're interested in and you know if it's someone you interact with more closely or let's say you're on a transaction with you know you can talk to them about that. And I found that that helps to really open up the conversation and start to build that relationship. You know if you're a little bit nervous that you may not have a lot of things in common with that other individual I've just always found that helpful to come from that place because certainly you can both talk about what you're doing there you know and where you want to take your careers and kind of my second piece of advice. There also is too when you have those willing to really focus on your relationships outside of war. You know I have a strong support system to my friends and my family and my partner. And that really helps to keep things in perspective because a lot of times you know if you're at a big firm or here as an organization and there's a there's great sophisticated work being done. Sometimes you do worry. [00:13:16] And my goodness the people but you can always count on our mom to remind you that you're better than she is. I mean at home and there you know you might be kind of a small fish in a big pond at work but outside of work people can remind you know you're actually great at this or you're actually really interested in and don't get kind of caught up in that environment where you're surrounded by people who are good at it because there's a larger environment where there are other people who you know have not focused on that don't have the same skills that and a lot of times they think you're great you know and I've just been able to anchor myself to my support system outside of work and also and also internally you know I had mentioned before when we spoke previously I believe in meditation a big proponent of meditation. I've found that it's helpful in stressful situations and I have found that help as a practice as a way of just checking in with yourself and talking to yourself and building yourself up when you need it. Those are really kind of the two pieces of advice I would have to give Yeah. Jeena Cho: [00:14:38] I mean I certainly found I curious to hear how it's landed for you is having a regular mindfulness practice gets me out of that really self-destructive and negative way of thinking where I'm constantly thinking like oh I'm not good enough I'm not good enough or I'm not good as these other people especially in like a law firm you know there isn't often that tremendous amount of positive feedback. You know the people in your team might think you're great but they do not necessarily go around and you know consciously tell you how great they are. So I at least for me I found that I was able to when those voices pop up stepped back a little bit and say Is this objectively true or is this just my inner narrator or my inner critic talking and often it was that voice and that you know if I could truly sort of objectively look at the entirety of all the work that I've done and taken the good with the bad and because we had both rights that often I sort of underestimate the good work that I do and places where I do shine like those things just don't matter. It's almost like while I just got lucky by winning that motion or I just got you to know like it wasn't my own doing that. But to that result, versus if something goes wrong then I take it very personally then it's like oh it's because I messed up that we've lost that motion. So you know when you from your mindfulness practice how that helps you to shape it. You know just sort of working with the like in our voices. Brittany Allison: [00:16:18] For me my mindfulness practice has been very helpful for identifying the feeling I'm having. I kind of figured out a couple years ago that I wasn't so great at that, to begin with. You know I could tell I wasn't feeling great but I couldn't really articulate deeper what was going on. And my practice has really helped me to be able to identify right. It's what I'm feeling and kind of the next step from there is why I am feeling that way. Because as you mentioned things can certainly snowball when you get into that kind of negative mindset and you know all of a sudden everything that it was that is your fault. I eat a lot of really take the time to say what am I actually feeling what is actually making me feel that way. And as you mentioned is that true. You know. Is that really true? [00:17:18] And remind me that there's a bigger perspective here. Maybe I made a mistake but maybe I did kind of saying well you know and maybe I'm not you know another big one for me is kind of dealing with learning curves. We don't all know everything you know. And I switched practice areas and there are certain things that I have to learn and I spend a little more time on the catch up to understand slowly just by nature of the fact that some of my colleagues have been doing it you know their whole careers and it's not something I engaged with as much. You know before my current position but I do give myself space to kind of remind myself. All right I may be learning that. Or you know trying to get better at that one thing. But you know what I think been great is the thriller thing. And I think those things provide value in these three ways. And even further I'm going to see if I can find opportunities to contribute that value. So that I feel like a meaningful member of the team even if there's one way. One place where I feel a little weak is not as strong as the rest of the team. I'm going to find a place where I know I can help push us along. And I think that that's part of the mindfulness practice that's part of what self-reflection practice where you just start to really identify the things that you feel like you're really good at or you are uniquely good at or you. You bring to a team. Jeena Cho: [00:19:12] Well Brittany, it was so nice having you here. One final question for you. Before I let you go, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Brittany Allison: [00:19:25] Ah, that's a very good question. To me, a resilient lawyer is someone who takes ownership of their career who is overcoming obstacles or challenges or naysayers whatever the case may be to pursue all the opportunities that they're interested in and build a career that is engaging and fulfilling for that individual. And where that individual can also provide value. Jeena Cho: [00:19:55] Brittany thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation. Brittany Allison: [00:20:00] Thank you so much, Jeena for having me. Closing: [00:20:13] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Tiffany Southerland on to talk about owning your past to better understand yourself and your future. Tiffany is a career confidence coach and speaker. She is the founder of Four Corners Coaching, where she helps ambitious professionals leverage their stories and strengths so they can maximize their career success. After practicing law, Tiffany transitioned to higher education and eventually back to a law firm in a recruiting role. She also hosts her own podcast and a local radio show focused on career development and diversity and inclusion. Topics Covered Owning your story by accepting the good and the bad to develop an increased sense of self-awareness, and having a better platform to launch yourself into where you want to be. How she believes confidence is the best tool you can have in your professional toolbox to both make yourself feel more comfortable in stressful situations and help others feel comfortable around you. How her faith and spirituality has shaped her work and her podcast. Making career transitions, and knowing your value and values. Sources Mentioned: Use http://bit.ly/10tiff to contact Tiffany and schedule a time to talk with her. Text "TiffSouth" to 444999 to get her free workbook "The Leverage List" Learn more and connect with Tiffany at: Linked In Instagram Four Corners Coaching Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Tiffany Southerland: [00:00:03] In my own career journey, I recognized that there was a bit of a disconnect between where I ended up, and how I got there and why. I had to look back before I could figure out how I wanted to move forward. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today In this episode I have Tiffany Southerland. She Is a career confidence coach and speaker. She is a founder of Four Corners Coaching, where she helps ambitious professionals leverage their stories and strength so that they can maximize their career success. After practicing law, Tiffany's transition to higher education and eventually back to a law firm and a recruiting role she also hosts her own podcast. How does she do it in a local radio show focused on career development and diversity and inclusion. [00:01:14] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode. Go back and check it out. A shared a six minute guided meditation practice the like though of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause and I know you've been hearing me talk about meditation and mindfulness and why it's so important. But really it is the best tool I found to manage stress and anxiety and also increase focus and productivity and so often lawyers ask me Well how much time do I need to dedicate this. And I said you know what just start with six minutes with two minutes if that's all you can fit into your schedule or six minutes of all the hours you dedicate to your clients and others don't you deserve to have at least one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for boys like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily by The to boost your well-being. Head on over to Jeena Cho dot com to learn more. Check it out in the show notes. And with that here's Stephanie Tiffany welcome to the show. Tiffany Southerland: [00:02:13] Thank you so much for having me Jane I'm very happy to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:16] So let's just jump right in and have you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do. Tiffany Southerland: [00:02:22] I like to say that I am a lawyer by training and a change agent at heart and I am a girl from Hempstead Long Island who really loves to help people be their best selves. I am the oldest of four children so that comes with this sort of protective desire to help you know kind of nurture and help people be their best and I love haribo gummy bears which is something that I like to mention to people it is the best brand of gummy bears ever. And I'm just really really excited and grateful to have this conversation with you today. Jeena Cho: [00:02:57] Wonderful it was. I didn't know that you are a long island. They're my parents. They'll live in Huntington and I grew up in Kuwait and said. Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:05] Look at that. Jeena Cho: [00:03:06] Surprised to find out we have this connection. Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:09] Yes. Jeena Cho: [00:03:09] So let's start by talking about owning your story. What does that mean in terms of lawyers specifically. And how do you help your clients find their own story. What does that process. Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:22] So I think owning your story is really about the way this is something that I and I developed this kind of this idea or this concept that it is only your story is not novel to me but in my own career journey I recognized that there was a bit of a disconnect between where I ended up and how I how I got there and and why and what I had to do when I started practice which you know kind of led me to actually leaving practice full time was I had to look back before I could figure out how I wanted to move forward and in order for you to do that. [00:04:00] It starts by you really taking ownership and acceptance of the things that you have been through the things that have contributed to who you are the things that have driven you and pushed you in a direction that maybe you didn't realize you even wanted to go and or that you don't actually want to go in. And then from there being able to then step back and say Okay now that I recognize these things about my past and my present how does that influence the way that I want to show up in my present and my future. [00:04:29] And so when you own your story you are accepting the the good and the bad that has helped shape you shape who you are developing an increased sense of self awareness working to heal working to be honest and authentic and then that really just helps open you up for so many more possibilities that that allow you to show up as a better professional and a better person generally. Jeena Cho: [00:04:52] Hmm thinking about working with boys and I can also say lawyers being like well why does that matter. You know I do transactional law that is out of me only my story. Help me be a better transactional lawyer. Tiffany Southerland: [00:05:05] So that's a great question. And I think what it helps you. What what I do. I do not believe that we operate and live in compartments although we are. We live in a society and in a world that tells us that there is our work self and that there is our home self. And while we are not the same way with our you know colleagues may be as the way we are with our best friends or with our you know our family and things like that. There is this disconnect between how we show up at work and who we are as people and that creates a tension and when you have to put on your work face and put on your work self and not be able to bring in parts of who you are you are you're not being your best self. [00:05:47] You may be a great transactional attorney but are you the best person to work with. Are you the best colleague. Are you even. Are are you joyful in the work that you do. And I think that there's this assumption that as attorneys who do you know very high level sophisticated work that you can't then also be you can't necessarily balance and be more of who you are and not be conservative and sort of buttoned up because this profession and this work is very serious and very high stakes. So I think it matters in the sense that you can bring more of who you are at work and it makes you a better colleague. It makes you better for your clients and it makes you happier and it makes you less exhausted because you're not putting on a front if you will for the sake of just being this work self. Jeena Cho: [00:06:35] Right. It kind of makes me think about that concept of cover saying where you feel like you can't bring all of yourself into your work environment or whatever it might be and now that's something I've been thinking more about recently because I am an immigrant. I came over from Korea when I was 10 years old and then I realized you know I spent so much of my teenage years and certainly my adult years of trying to race the fact that I am an immigrant. [00:07:04] I changed my name. I lost my accent and I worked really hard at it to try to appear mainstream more and are now just more normal or why. Then just more recently I had to be like Oh OK. But what were the pieces that I left behind. And how is that impacting me now and how is that impacting the way I show up for other people. And as I start to sort of reclaim all of those parts that I've you know hidden or left behind that it actually gave me just more of a sense of comfort and also just like feeling just more comfortable in my own skin and then sort of an interesting realization but yeah I'd totally just hear and feel what it is that you're talking about. Tiffany Southerland: [00:07:55] Absolutely. And I think what you mentioned is feeling more comfort comfortable in your own skin and when you're more comfortable in your own skin and can show up to work that way you are a more confident attorney. You are a more confident person. And what we know in this profession confidence is what is what is the thing that that draws people to you. It draws your it draws your colleagues to you to give you more an additional work. [00:08:23] It draws clients to you and it it just makes everyone else feel more comfortable because there's an assumption that comes with confidence competence the assumption of competence comes with confidence in this profession. And so when you are able to show up more full and that's that's what I help my clients do is if I can help you become more confident at your core and be clear about who you are as a person. We can figure out the career stuff that stuff will come. It's the it's though it's the personal stuff that we try to keep separate from our career. That often inhibits us in our in our development in our career. Jeena Cho: [00:08:57] And you know before we started this interview right sharing with me about how you sort of started opening your your own faith and how you actually started talking about that on your podcast so if you can just share with the audience you know how your own faith your own spirituality or religion has sort of shaped who you are and how you approach your work. Tiffany Southerland: [00:09:20] Absolutely. So when I started my podcast three years ago I started it as a really focused a lot on personal development and the frame of reference that I came from was I was this older millennial who felt like I'd gotten dropped into this professional world that school barely prepared before right. And so all of the different pressures and things that come with being an adult knowing how to balance your your finances and your physical health and your profession and your relationships all at the same time. I didn't feel like I had a good handle on that. And so started my podcast really with that kind of frame of reference in mind. [00:09:56] And over time I felt I felt myself growing in my faith. I am a Christian and so I felt that that was becoming a bigger part of my identity. But I kept I was holding it back in my conversations. And once I realized that it was it became difficult for me to talk fully and authentically in that particular vulnerable space without mentioning my faith. I I felt like I was being inauthentic and I felt like I had to to keep myself from you know sharing parts some things that were really important and things that I thought could be helpful to other people. And once I pulled that wall down once I let that fear go then I was able to draw and in an entirely new group of listeners to me. [00:10:40] And I think the lesson for everyone else there is that when you show up more fully as you are in a in an authentic and in a full in a whole way you will draw the people to you that are meant to be drawn to you you will help people in ways that you don't even realize just by simply being more of who you are and so that was that was really how that came through for me because it just became such a natural part of my conversation outside of the podcast. I couldn't I could not talk about it and even at work I don't you know I don't it's I'm obviously very measured about the way that I speak about my faith in the professional environment. But when I'm thinking about the principles that that my face it the reasons why I care about people and things like that those things are connected and so I can't encourage without that perspective in my mind at least. And so that's kind of the frame of reference that kind of keeps me grounded. Jeena Cho: [00:11:35] Was some other reason why you kept the wall up this year. Like go I'm going to turn people off. Tiffany Southerland: [00:11:41] That's a great question. I think I was worry that people would that I would come across as preachy if you will and this and there's something about being a Christian that. And it just is. It's observation and in society that sometimes it comes across as very harsh. It comes across as dogmatic. It comes across as alienating to people and that was my fear was that the exact opposite of what I wanted to do. And so what I recognized though is that my tendency is not to be that way anyway. And so by talking about my faith more I wouldn't automatically become somebody who I wasn't I would become more of who I actually was and I wouldn't Nessus I wouldn't turn people off by virtue of me talking about it in and of itself. It would be maybe that somebody might not be interested in hearing about it and so they would choose to. Jeena Cho: [00:12:25] Now yeah. And I love that that you can define it what that means for you. You know being able to incorporate your faith into the work that you do when you cannot really awesome model for other people what that looks like. I think you're right people do have you know ideas about what it means to be Christian and how especially if they're not Christian how other Christian people behave. And you can also help to maybe take down that stereotype and go Oh I am you know I thought that he meant that as she is showing me that it might actually mean something very different. So yeah I really love that. Tiffany Southerland: [00:13:05] Thank you. Exactly and I think it really is just a matter the way that I try to live my life through the way I engage in social media the way I show up at work is really around the idea that if you are more of who you are and if you can be whole in who you are than other things that you don't even expect will fall into place in ways that you just can't anticipate because we're too busy boxing ourselves into these compartments that we assume we need to be. And that's just not it's just not the case. Jeena Cho: [00:13:35] I'm well let's shift gears a little bit and talk about career transitions. Seems like I've been getting a lot of listener questions about changing careers or not even changing careers. More specifically I get a lot of questions around me. I think you kind of go through life and you check all the boxes right. You go to a school you pass the bar or you get a job you make partner or you buy the house with the white picket fence Yep two kids you have to the car in the garage but then all of a sudden you hit this wall and there's this feeling of like oh I have everything but I'm still just content I have everything but I am still so incredibly unhappy. [00:14:12] I was just talking to a lawyer recently and she said she literally sits in her garage everyday and cries before she goes into the house and she's like but I just don't like I don't even feel like I have a right to feel that way and it just feels so overwhelming to think that you know think that while I put so much work and so much effort to get to where I am and to think that I was all for nothing or all for not. So I know that's a huge bag of topics that I sort of threw out there but you know when someone comes to you when they're just in that state of like I just don't know. You know I got to the end of the rainbow and there's no pot of gold and all I see is just more misery and dread where someone who's in that situation. Tiffany Southerland: [00:15:00] Yeah that's a great question and I definitely have had that conversation many many times with some with them some of the clients that I work with. What it comes down to I start with how let's talk about how you got here because and this is a reflection my of my own career journey. I got to the desire to become an attorney by virtue of me seeing the power that was associated with the with being an attorney. Me also seeing that there is a security of of of of a financial future that came with being an attorney. [00:15:33] And so and I never wavered from that and I never explored anything else. And so when you're talking about kind of why people are unhappy where they are. We have to figure out what got them here first because when you deconstruct why they are where they are today you start to hear them talk about the things that they actually cared about or that they wanted you start to hear about the things that they feel gives them purpose and where that disconnect is why doesn't this job that you're in right now make it light you up. Why don't you feel that it's fulfilling or that you're living intentionally. [00:16:08] And they start to when you're just ask them questions about their journey they tell you answers to what those next they give you at least insights into what those next step might need to be. And it may not mean leaving the profession. It may not mean leaving your law firm it may be asking for some setting harder boundaries. It may be asking for permission to you know become a leader in a different type of way. It may mean making shifts in the way you show up at work every day and it may mean resolving some of the issues that keep you feeling guilty about being successful. [00:16:42] Because again that's it's not that the career the career is is really just it is kind of the surface part of it. We are people before we show up to work every day. We were people before you know where people as attorneys were not just attorneys. Right. And that's and saying just attorneys is not to diminish the profession but it is to say we are people who are attorneys. And so how do you service the whole person who's shows up as an attorney are a jobs are not our identities but we live in a society that makes our job our identity. I'm sure you have encountered you go to a professional networking events or what do you do. Where do you work. It's the way that we label and we attach value to people and if we can't attach value to ourselves outside of our work when our work isn't fulfilling us we will therefore feel like we have less value. Jeena Cho: [00:17:31] Hmm yeah that's some yeah that's Hanako's brings us back full circle to what we started talking about as we have to begin by owning our stories of where our journey has taken us so far. Step after you sort of figure out OK. This is my story. This is how I got to where I am but what's the next step. Tiffany Southerland: [00:17:54] The next step is to really think about well what do you care about what is important to you. Why do you like certain aspects of the work that you do. And what about certain aspects of your of your work is draining you. That was one of the questions that I was posed by one of my mentors when I first raised the concern that I'm I didn't think I wanted to practice in a law firm environment anymore. Was well figure out if it's though if it's right now or if it's the whole thing. Figure out if it's the project that you're on. If it's the season at work or if it's the entire kind of experience that you're having. [00:18:30] And so basically what you have to do is you have to really ask yourself some very very hard questions and figure out OK how why am I feeling the way that I'm feeling what at a certain point in the day when certain a certain person speaks to me. Why am I reacting the way that I'm reacting. And from there you can then start to say OK so maybe it's not that I don't want to be an attorney but maybe I don't want to practice in this environment anymore. Maybe it's this type of work that I'm doing. Maybe it's maybe it's a management issue. Right. It may actually be that it's there's a team issue with the work that in the way that you're currently working it could be. [00:19:04] So it really is. You have to ask yourself a bunch of questions that really get to okay the here and now and then from there depending on what those answers are. Now we have to figure out OK how do we get how do we get from here to where we hope to be that in a place that will make us feel more whole. And what strategies do we have to figure out to make those to make that leap. And those are you know those strategies can come in a hundred different types of ways but it's really assessing the here and now and then kind of reverse engineering your way into a strategy to move onto the next step. Jeena Cho: [00:19:39] So I'm going to shift gears a little bit and talk about values. How I want us to start. You know what. What does that even mean. You say knowing your values and honoring them when does that mean. Tiffany Southerland: [00:19:53] So I use I always think about values in two senses. Knowing your value as a person and as an individual and the things that you were uniquely gifted with that make you that makes you you based on your experiences based on the things that come most natural to you the things that you really enjoy. And when it comes to your values does is it important for you to have flexibility so that you can stay in work at home every day. Is it important for you to work in an organization that is dedicated to servicing the community in a certain way. Is it important for you to to make sure that you have time with your family by a certain time every day. [00:20:34] Is it is being able to come to work in jeans every everyday or versus the business professional right. What are the things that you know that really are really really important to you that you find may be at odds with or are affirmed by the current space that you're working in. So you really have to. Again it's this is all about self-awareness as it comes. This all of this the conversation that we're having really revolves around having a very heightened self sense of self awareness because then you you will unequivocally know what's important to you and then be able to figure out if your work and your career aligns or is not aligned with those things. Jeena Cho: [00:21:14] How do you go about figuring out what your values are. Is it just like something you sit around and think about it. Tiffany Southerland: [00:21:22] I think you know you have to pay attention to to what you how you spend your time. Pay attention to where your where your energy is is fullfil is kind of refilled or drained. And pay attention to how you talk. Pay attention to the things that you say and ask and ask people when you talk to people who know you best when you see me and when you what do you think. What do you think is really important to me based on what you know about me. And then kind of check in and say you know what if that person thinks that that's really important to me and that sounds crazy to me then you know I need to figure out what I'm putting out there that makes it seem like that's what's really important to me. [00:22:01] So it's not just you know kind of sitting around thinking about it but really being active in your and being active and present in your everyday existence and seeing where there's where there's synergy and where there's disconnect for example when I knew that was something that was really important to me was being able to physically interact with people and help change individual people right and to be able to help develop people on a really individual level that's something that's really important to me and really almost I want to say it's central to my identity which is why the shift that I made when I first made it out out of out of litigation practice really helped kind of fulfill that and helped me explore that more. But that was only something that I recognized when I sat down and said well why am I so unhappy right now. And when do I get really really excited when someone comes to my office with an individual problem and I don't I'm not happy that person has a problem but I'm really excited that I am helping them find an answer to that problem. Jeena Cho: [00:23:00] Tiffany for the listeners out there that want to learn more about you and your work. What's the best place for them to go into that. Tiffany Southerland: [00:23:07] You can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can search Tiffany Southerlyn that's Tiffany with two F's and o u you you can connect with me on the at Four Corners coaching that com and that's the number four spelled out EFO you are. And you can also connect with me on on I'm on Instagram. I don't know if your listeners are big on instagram but I'm at TIFF south on Instagram as well and that's tiff with two s. So anytime you search for Tiffany with two F's and s o u t h you can find me online. You can find me on social media. Jeena Cho: [00:23:39] Fantastic. The lesson is that I like. I think I kind of want to work with her or just have a chat with her. How did they go about scheduling a better time. Chali. Tiffany Southerland: [00:23:48] If you go to B T dot l y slash 10. Tiff and that's the number 10 and that's tiff again with two F's again. L y slash 10. Tiff and TIFF were two F's. You will be able to connect with me there and I also want to offer your listeners a lot of what we talked about today was you know how do you reflect on where you've been. How do you reflect on what you've done. [00:24:12] I've created a workbook that is really designed to help you reflect on the experience that you've had over the course of your career so that you can documented and really be prepared to understand how you how you can improve and how you can position yourself for different opportunities so if you text tiff south and that's tiff with two EFFs 2 4 4 4 9 9 9 you'll be able to get that workbook and you will be able to connect from there and you'll really get a good idea. It's called the leverage list workbook and you'll really be able to get a good idea of how you can progress and really what you've done. Because we often discount our experience in favor of you know thinking that everybody can do this but we are unique and wonderfully made individuals that allow us to show up in ways that nobody else can because you are you for a very specific reason. Jeena Cho: [00:25:04] I love it and if you're driving you're like wait what did she say. You can just check it out at the show to all the information will be available in the show. Now it's said Tiffany before I let you go. One final question. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a The Resilient Lawyer to you. Tiffany Southerland: [00:25:22] It means to show up whole and be confident in doing so knowing that you showing uphold you showing up as authentically you will encourage other people to do the same and it will help make you a better professional and a better attorney and a better person by doing so. Jeena Cho: [00:25:41] Tiffany, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate it. Tiffany Southerland: [00:25:44] Thank you so much for having me Jeena. Closing: [00:25:47] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us that smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Samara Anderson on to talk about the effects of stress in the practice of law and the difference proper mitigation of stress can have for the mindful lawyer. Samara is a yoga teacher, Agency of Human Services legal and policy advisor, and an entrepreneur creating a non-profit community farm in Vermont to use farm animals, nature, and mindfulness to heal people. Her legal work has evolved from litigation to public service as an in-house legal and policy advisor with the State of Vermont. Samara has combined her mindfulness practices with the practice of law in her Mindful Practices workshops to reduce stress and increase productivity and happiness. Topics Covered What brought her to incorporate mindfulness into her law practice, and how to use a mindfulness practice to recognize when you are being reactive and triggered. The effects of stress on the practice of law (the power of the mind to hurt and heal). The power of mindfulness in improving your role as an attorney, and using stress and adrenaline to your advantage. How to be more efficient, productive, happier, and have more integrity as an attorney. Learn more about Samara at: The Happy Human Projects Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:23] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am really happy to have Samara Anderson. She is a yoga teacher, Agency of Human Services legal and policy adviser, and an entrepreneur at creating a nonprofit community farm in Vermont to use farm animals nature and mindfulness to heal people. Her legal work has a ball from litigation to public service as an in-house legal and policy adviser with the state of Vermont. Samara has combined her mindfulness practice with the practice of law and her mindfulness practices workshop to reduce stress and increase productivity and happiness and who doesn't want that. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new cars mindful pause so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness but they don't have the time and I was hell lawyer start with just six minutes or point one hour of all the hours you dedicate your client's work and others don't deserve to have at least point one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for lawyers like it to fit into your schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to booze show while being head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. Or check it out in the shownotes. And with that, here's Samara. Samara, welcome to the show. Samara Anderson: [00:01:48] Awesome thank you. I'm really excited to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:01:51] So let's just start by having you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you know. Samara Anderson: [00:01:57] Well I like to refer to myself as a Yagur so I combining Beany yoga teacher with being a lawyer and that started about five years ago. I started my professional legal career as a complex commercial litigator in Manhattan working on securities fraud antitrust violations products liability. Very very stressful work high stakes very wealthy clients and it was very hostile and you know I kind of transitioned out of that environment into being a yoga teacher thinking I would never practice law again. And then I realized I could actually combine the two. I could bring the mindfulness and the healing that I was feeling both physically and mentally from from yoga and meditation into the practice of law. And so I returned to the practice of law as an assistant attorney general here in Vermont which is where I live now doing some really complex challenging family law cases representing people that were being abused neglected or violated as either adults or children with developmental disabilities. So it was a very stressful kind of situation. But I was able to bring the mindfulness into it and that's made all the difference and now I've kind of transitioned into managing some of their complex projects and representing the agency of Human Services. I'm still you know integrating the two. I teach a lot of mindful practices courses to all types of lawyers Vermont Legal Aid. I teach to other government attorneys law firms. And I'm really passionate about combining these two things and helping other lawyers the less stressed and happier. Jeena Cho: [00:03:51] Well it is combining the two books like they did day basis. Know client by client basis how does that look different than what you were doing previously. Samara Anderson: [00:04:04] I think previously I was just I felt like I was in a rat race. I was just I felt like I was just rushing from one thing to the next. Never really even enjoying whatever it was I was doing even if it was something that could be enjoyable I was just in in those moments. I was thinking of other things are planning the next thing or thinking about something that happened before. And so when I look back at my first seven eight years as a lawyer I was essentially not present at all. I think I was physically present. And my mind was engaged but I wasn't actually there. I think I was always somewhere else. And I think you looking back at you know it just didn't allow me to maximize everything I was doing. But now after you know I have a very solid practice. I incorporate our Iveta into my day as well. So I have in our Ubaid it's called a Jeena Cho area it's a routine that's kind of there to support your body to maximize what you eat when you sleep when you exercise. It's kind of this holistic way of approaching you know your health and that. So those things yoga meditation are kind of all combined to now allow me to be present in all of the moments so I'm really there as much as I can be of course I'm human I'm not. You know I'm not completely enlightened yet but I think the moments of mindfulness and being present are much more powerful and I'm getting a lot more of it out of everything I do. So yeah I think that's the biggest difference just in a kind of a general context. Jeena Cho: [00:05:53] Yeah. And can you talk more specifically about you know when you talk about the power of mindfulness and harnessing it to improve your role as an attorney what that looks like. Can you give a specific example of how you may have handled this situation differently before than you do now. Samara Anderson: [00:06:10] I think that the biggest thing is efficiency and that's really coming from self awareness so you know when you become mindful you become a little bit more self aware. You know you start to realize when you're being triggered you start you starting to realize when you're being reactive. And I think you know the biggest thing is starting to look at both efficiency and sustainability so you know let's say looking at my daily tasks. So before I would be sitting at my desk and e-mails would come in and phone calls would come in and I was just a victim to everyone else contacting me. So if I get a phone call I would answer it if I got an e-mail I would read it if I got to it. This is before the time of cell phones they were just starting to pick up and then now that you know when those cell phones came in I had a BlackBerry and so it was you know e-mail notifications and all these notifications and I was just you know kind of rushing from one thing to the next and getting distracted and not being able to focus on anything that was just you know kind of my mind was jumping from one thing to the next. And now I do what's called batching. So I'll bad I'll let all the e-mails you know just accumulate and I'll have a notification that says I check my e-mails three times a day. So I check them one hour in the morning one hour in the afternoon one hour in the evening. And then you know I take that one hour and it's you know I complete the analysis of all the e-mails looking at the e-mails responding to the e-mails and giving them my full attention. It's the same with phone calls so that the phone calls go to voicemail and then you know Habba time that I've said that I've determined I'm going to you know listen to those phone messages and then I'll listen to them and prioritize the responses and let people know I'll get back to them. So I think it's it's just a different way of of actually practicing. And I think that plays out not just being a lawyer but I think you know anyone in the professional context that that kind of distracted practice is not very efficient or sustainable. Jeena Cho: [00:08:19] So it is one of the things that I often will talk to lawyers about is time management and how to structure their time more efficiently and often I'll get something like well but my clients expected to be available 24/7 and if I don't respond right away they get upset. I'm curious when you started to make these changes. Did you get any pushback. And if so how did you deal with that. Samara Anderson: [00:08:40] Yeah I get that a lot from lawyers especially those that are in the criminal context of the civil litigation context where you've got judges you've got cook you know opposing counsel you've got clients and in one of the things I started to kind of look at I have a government client and I think the key is to set their expectation with the client or the expectation with opposing counsel to state that you know I want to give you all of my attention. And if I respond to your e-mails right away it means I'm not giving you all your all the tension that you know you really deserve. And so I'd rather wait give myself space to like schedule the time to do it. I know there is an emergency. You know I will be available. But typically clients are fine with that. I mean once you set the expectation I mean if the expectation is you're always available then you're you know if that's what they expect then that's what you have to provide. And I've had many lawyers even in the Ledet litigation context as I don't actively practice litigation anymore that are able to actually set those expectations with their clients. So I think that's the key. You know just communicating that upfront. And and you know and then allowing the media negotiation to occur with a client to say well you know if they do have something that's urgent then I'll let that come through. You can set up all these different you know an outlook and different e-mails you can set up certain e-mails can come through with the notification that they're important. So you can actually prioritize things that way. Jeena Cho: [00:10:07] So just not have outlook open during the day when you're not supposed to be checking your e-mail or you sort of internally manage that. Samara Anderson: [00:10:17] I just turn the notifications off. So I mean it's there but I'm not actively looking at it. And I think you know the key is to kind of you know take all your time so if you're you know in the office for eight hours to you know kind of schedule everything. So look down at your calendar and schedule that schedule. You know the break that you're going to take I have a little notification that pops up. Be mindful and it pops up at 1:00 and so it's always like I'm always rushing. That is like. Be mindful. And it's just I can just be mindful for one breath if I don't have the time to take the full five minutes. But usually I can take five minutes and then sometimes it's ten. But you know to really maximize it so if you give if you batched everything you've put everything you know in your calendar then you're just then there's less stress too because you know I'm going to get to this. There's my mind isn't racing to be like how did I do this. Did I do that you've already prioritized everything you already know what you have to do and then you just do it when you schedule it. Jeena Cho: [00:11:13] Yeah. And I think also scheduling things kind of you know it's respecting your own energy right because we don't think you know it's lawyers. We like to think that where we can just work and work and work and work but it's not true. So recognizing that there are only so many hours in the day and you know you're going to prioritize those things that are important and make sure that you are able to do those things when you're sort of at your know optimal energy level and that kind of trying and doing you know for me as you say earlier in the morning tends to be sort of my better hours in terms of getting work done and not putting the most important things to be done at 4:00 o'clock. Oh my energy levels is not going to be as high. Samara Anderson: [00:11:58] Exactly. Or 3 o'clock when all over serotonin and dopamine levels drop later. Jeena Cho: [00:12:06] And you know I think that very nicely kind of leads us into the next topic which has the effect of stress on the practice. Applying this ability of the mind to both hurt and heal so say more about that. Samara Anderson: [00:12:23] I think this is this is something that it kind of developed as I started to teach mindfulness because as a lawyer you know we always kind of want to look at it what's the problem like what is the problem what are we what are we dealing with. And then what is a solution. So as always you know I always start with that kind of a two step analysis. What's the problem. What are my you know possible solutions. And so as I started to break down what had really started to fall apart for me both physically and emotionally it was the effects of stress. And it was the you know the physical and the mental effects of stress. So the example I always use when I write teach my mind for practice practices workshops is I ask all the participants you know what causes stress in your life. And they all you know they have different things and they go around the room and then I say Alright imagine that all the things that you just identified as causing stress your so you're mentally saying these things are causing me stress. Physically your body is reacting as though a supportive tigers chasing you because your mind is telling your body. I'm under stress. There is something that is you know coming after me and it could just be a deadline. It could just be you know a phone call an awkward conversation an argument. And so you know I say well if a saber toothed tigers chasing you what are your options like. What do you need to do. And you know everyone's like run. And I said while you could run or you could you know you could you could fight. You know it may not be the best option but maybe you could. Or you could freeze. And all three of those states cause the same exact amount of hormones in the body. So you've got first nor epinephrine an adrenalin are created. Those are the like. I've got to get out of here. I've got I got get moving. And then and then after that cortisol starts to come online and that stays in the body much longer. But they all are meant to get you to run. You're supposed to be running. So all the blood flow is now going out into your extremities. You know your heart rate increases your respiration it increases your hands could get sweaty. You know and so you're having a stress response. And you know when I tell people that I have them in vision that they're getting chased by sabertooth tiger they start to think wow I actually do kind of feel that way. Like when you and I have a deadline or when I'm under stress it's like my body is reacting that way I could just be sitting in a room thinking about something and my body is going to have that response. And so you know I really talk about how powerful the mind body connection is and it really hits home like you know I'll even do the example of just everyone close their eyes and take your awareness to your left index finger and then I'll have them you know just take their awareness their take their energy there and then open their eyes and say well what did it feel like. Did you feel. What did you feel in your left index finger in there like tingly and it felt like buzzing it felt warm. That is your mind. You're just taking your mind and you're putting it on something. And you know that mind body connection is so powerful and so I say well you know if you've got these stress hormones how how do you decrease them you know how do you kind of get out of the sympathetic nervous system and get into what's called the parasympathetic nervous system and then in that system you've got the other three opposing hormones serotonin dopamine and oxytocin and those actually decrease those stress hormones. So you know mindful practices and there's a lot of documented evidence. Lawyers always want to see the evidence so I always have my studies about you know how deep breathing and mindful movement whatever kind of movement it is. Even if you're running if you're doing it mindfully you'll still have the same facts yoga a tight tchi all of these different motions activate the parasympathetic system and they activate those hormones serotonin dopamine and oxytocin so you actually you've got these I almost kind of see it as like stress hormones versus relaxation hormones and like you know which can you start to increase the relaxation and decrease the stress. And what can you do during the day what can you do in the moment. What can you do to to start to to alter that balance so that you know when someone cut you off in traffic you're not reacting you're just thinking what a person must be having a bad day you know you're your reactive state is much different because you're in he start to cultivate this place of of of more relaxation. So that's kind of how I Jeena I generalize that I have a lot of lawyers say we can handle the talking about the prefrontal cortex I'm like well you know that's probably more advanced mindfulness. Let's just stick with the basics right. And a lot of people are blown away just by the basics right. Because it does have a complex. Jeena Cho: [00:17:17] you explain the actual practice. Can you give one example of a practice of filibusterers and that I like I yeah reading she says is totally making sense. But what do I do in that moment. So you're sitting in the office. The phone rings and says to someone that you like low then you know your heart's racing our stomachs tightening up and you just yell like you can sort of feel that adrenaline kicking in. So what's a practice that you can recommend a lawyer try to do in that moment. Samara Anderson: [00:17:49] Well I think the most critical pieces that you actually are aware that you're having a stress response you know and that in itself is extremely powerful. The second you are realizing wow I am I am I'm I'm really upset right now. I can feel my heart beating faster I can feel my breath rate increasing like you don't want to even talk about stress. I have a lot of lawyers say how many people feel stressed just talking about stress syndrome it raised their hands because even like as you describe that I started feeling it. So you know you know and so the awareness number one that you're having a stress response is extremely powerful. Like that is I think that is probably the key to decreasing your stress is knowing that you're having stress right. You have to know you have to become aware that you have a problem before you can solve it. And then so you realize I'm having a stress response. I'm having a reaction. I think that second piece is is can be very simple and very profound and it's completely free and it's available all the time. It doesn't require any advanced training or any kind of special clothing. It's just your breath. So the second you realize I'm having a stress response. So stress that kind of sympathetic nervous system when it activates that's the inhale. So when I teach yoga when you end it so if you're going to get hit by a car you know you almost get hit and go you know you breathe them. So that's sympathetic system that activates the sympathetic system and usually that happens you look at this phone call or email or you know my mother's calling or whatever could be stressing you out. And and then. So the parasympathetic response is the exhale. So it's. It's letting the breath out. And I think even if you just took one mindful breath like one deep breath in with your eyes closed softening the jaw relaxing the teeth and then one deep exhale out and try linger a little bit in that exhale just that one breath could be enough to have you shift just slightly. It's not going to decrease all the stress hormones. It really depends on how big of a trigger that was. You know how intense the emotion was. But that one breath that could be enough. You know if you still have to take the call you might be a little bit more present because you've just taken two huge steps in mindfulness. Number one you're aware of a stress response. Number two you're trying to become present bring yourself into the moment out of the reactive state. So you know mindfulness is not I'm judgmental it's subjective. You know you're cultivating it which is extremely difficult. You're like sane. I know I have this whole past and I have this you know all these environmental issues and where I was raised and how I was raised and all these things are in me and they alter my perception of reality. But I'm going to try and look at this objectively and try and breathe through the reaction that I'm having so that I can actually be present and non-judgemental. And I think that's I think that's the practice. I mean I guide I guide my students into awareness of their bodies. I mean like really feeling the body. And I think for some people that can be traumatic especially if you've had any kind of abuse in the past. So sometimes coming into the body can be very stressful sometimes you can get the eyes open and just a where the body and then become aware of the breath. So those two things that's mindfulness and it and it's available all the time completely free. Jeena Cho: [00:21:30] You know often when I suggest paying attention to the breath just what you suggested a lot of a lot more so at lawyers and non lawyers they find that that just paying attention to the brand to be very distressing. And you know I think a lot of it just has to do with Ed because we're such control freaks and all of a sudden they are paying attention to this thing that you and doing all of your life. And now that all of these dots are going through it's like am I breathing right. Am I not breathing. And then they start to change your breathing pattern and then they start speed up their breath and all this and act like they can't prevent it. It's just very very distressing so for the listeners out there like you know like pay attention to the press just doesn't work for me. Are there other practices that you can suggest. Samara Anderson: [00:22:16] Well I mean if paying attention to the breath is going to be challenging how is the one thing that I've realized about practices that are challenging it. They're usually there to kind of be our best teacher you know like people that are the most challenging. They're our best teachers you know. You know any kind of practice that I find challenging is my best teacher to say well maybe this is something I really need to look at. But if it's if it's something you absolutely can't do so you're having a really hard time you know doing it alone. Sometimes it works better in a group maybe a guided situation or just use other tools. So instead of focusing on the breath you can focus on the body or you can you know become aware of your surroundings and really start to look around June. What do you see. You could also pay attention to sounds you know eyes are open or closed. I find it easier to pay attention to sound with the eyes closed. I also find it easier to pay attention to sensations in the body with the eyes close. So you know if the brass if trying to and I guess you know what you're talking about is more like a pranayama. So prandial would be breath control you're trying to alter the breath maybe do counties and I've noticed a lot of lawyers when I do accounting so I have them I'll have them count to four on the inhale and I'll have them count to six on the exhale because what I'm trying to do is lengthen the exhale right. So I want to get the parasympathetic system online and I'll have lawyers after it say that was really hard. I start to compete with myself because I'll say well you could do five count inhale and seven count exhale. Or you could do a 6 hour inhale and an eight count accelerate like I was trying to get to succinate and it was so hard and I was really forcing it. And so I think we know because we're so competitive you know we will compete. So if given the opportunity we will start to ratchet it up like five and five and seven is really comfortable for me but succinate is a challenge. I won't push myself and all of a sudden your jaws. You know you're stressing yourself out doing it. And so I say well if that if that practice is stressing you out. And let's try something else let's just try another sense right because what you're trying to do is just bring yourself into the moment. So right. You know take our hands as the breath is the vehicle into the body. So what it does is it brings you if you're in the body you're present like you're here. And so you know if the if there's other ways to get you to into the body that you're out using the breath then you can use those and I find feeling sensations. What does the body feel like. And it's more actually I don't like that word feeling either when you get into some of the verbiage it's better to think about like what is this sensation. What is a sensation in the body because feelings are different. You know there's thoughts and then there's feelings that could be associated with those. Jeena Cho: [00:25:02] Right. Yeah you know words can be tricky. What you may mean by feel or notice or I think maybe didn't know how somebody else explained for that. Samara Anderson: [00:25:12] Yeah. Yeah. Woman is very. Because we're working with lawyers right. And words are our life. So when you start to use a certain word and certain words can be triggering. I find yoga to be triggering. I find meditation to be triggering people like you know what is a some kind of spiritual thing like it and I'm like now you're just focusing on your breath. So it's like I always had to scrub things out so that it's just it's mindfulness you're just mindfully practicing your mindfully moving your mindfully breathing. You know sometimes I do some manual work and so I was like oh what are in it is some kind of seance. It's like no all you're going to do is inhale and think the words Let's exhale go let go. And so I always say the the mind and the body there's no separation of the mind is thinking let go the body will start to let go and then the mind can start to let go of whatever it's holding onto. So you know there's there's lots of little tools and I think you know as I say with yoga it's like and it's the same with the practice of law you take the practice of law. You take the practice of yoga and you add you know add whoever that lawyer is and you get a certain experience and not everyone is going to like every lawyer and not everyone's going to like every yoga teacher and not everyone's going to like every practice. And so I always say if something doesn't work then keep working night. Don't give up on mindfulness just because something didn't resonate for you. Find something that does. You know and maybe it's visualization maybe it's another sense but keep looking because there's something out there that will resonate for you. And then that will be your gateway that will be your path forward into less stress and more happiness. So that's where it's worth looking for. If she can't find it. Jeena Cho: [00:27:06] Yeah that feels like the perfect place to wrap things up. Isomer for. The lesson is out there that want to learn more about you or your work it was the best placement Jeena. Samara Anderson: [00:27:18] The best place is I have a website. It's called The Happy Human projects plural because I didn't really think one would be enough. And it's really a place where you know I teach therapeutic yoga. I teach mindful practice workshops but I also what my biggest passion is is really one on one and group work around mindfulness. And I just I just love working with people and helping them. I feel like I am becoming more mindful. You know as I work with other people you know I learn more as a teacher than I sometimes think my students do so extremely you know passionate about that I travel all over the country teaching. So I would love to have people connect with me. Jeena Cho: [00:27:59] Wonderful. One final question before I let you go. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer. Samara Anderson: [00:28:07] I think they are resilient lawyers really honoring everything that that has taken you to where you're at. You know it's honoring all of the all the horrible things that might have happened to you as in your legal practice. All the wonderful wins that you had and kind of looking at all of that as you know your teacher. You know I'm so glad that I worked in a very challenging stressful legal practice where I was building you know 3000 hours a year because if I hadn't done that I would not have come to a place of of mindfulness. And so I think being resilient is honoring everything that that that has happened to you that has gotten to you to where you're at. And then you're using it and you're maximizing it to maximize your life. So I think that's for me that's what resilient lawyer and resiliency in general mean wander smile. Jeena Cho: [00:28:58] Thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate it. Samara Anderson: [00:29:02] Thank you I really enjoyed it. Closing: [00:29:10] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show to leave us a review on iTunes search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that. So we really appreciate it. As always we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile at the anxious lawyer dot com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Gina Alexandris on to talk about life in and beyond law practice and managing transitions. For over 20 years, Gina has been inspiring and supporting individuals and organizations to strategically define their hopes and achieve their goals. She is an adult educator, coach, public speaker, life-long learner, law school administrator, and former practicing lawyer. Gina is passionate about personal and professional development, diversity and inclusion, and developing strong relationships and networks. She is a proud Greek-Canadian soccer mom living with her family in Toronto. Topics Covered What the legal education life looks like (even beyond the law practice), how she discovered that litigation wasn't right for her, and what about it wasn't suited to whom she is. Dealing with an identity crisis in law, managing transitions at any point in your career, and what that journey looked like for her. What to do with that nagging feeling we can feel when we are pulled in different directions. Emotional intelligence for lawyers, and how we sometimes need to back away from our logic-thinking brain to listen to our inner voice. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Gina Alexandris: [00:00:06] I think being open and and seeing where things leads you right. So you go down one or it might not be the exact door but another one might have opened during that conversation that you want to explore. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast, I am so glad to have you here. In this episode I am so happy to have Gina Alexandris. She has been inspiring and supporting individuals and organizations to strategically define their hopes and achieve their goals. She is an adult educator coach public speaker a lifelong learner law school administrator and former practicing lawyer Jeena as passionate about personal and professional development diversity and inclusion in developing strong relationships and networks. She is a proud Greek Canadian soccer mom living with her family in Toronto. And in this episode we're going to Chad about law practice and beyond law practice and that she had a little bit about managing transitions I know a lot of Jeena. There have been sending e-mails about managing and changing careers and different you know changes that we go through and especially as we kind of shift from summer to fall I think it's a lovely time to kind of take a pause and reflect on your life and consider all of these big or small transitions. So I'm thrilled to have Jeena before we get into the interview if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course mindful pause so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice my Pilas but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers start with just six minutes or point one hour of all the hours she'd dedicate to your client's work and others don't you deserve to have at least point one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for lawyers like you to fit into your head schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to Jeena Cho dot com to learn more or check it out and the shell notes. And with that here's Gina. Gina, welcome to the show. Gina Alexandris: [00:02:38] Thank you Jeena. It is a delight to be here. I love the the mindful pause and the concept of taking just to point one out of your day for yourself. Well-deserved so thank you very much for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] Thank you. So let's start by having you give us this 30 second introduction of who you are and what you deal. Gina Alexandris: [00:02:54] Absolutely absolutely. And so what I wanted to say to that is that I started off in the practice of law and I did civil litigation and family law for about four years and then realized during that time that something about that just wasn't what I was hoping it would be. And I was looking for other options. And before law school I'd always thought I would go into teaching. What I found as a possibility was to set up are my alma maters Osgoode Hall Law School here in Canada. Career Development Office and so I transition from the practice of law to moving into the law school setting didn't know how long I would be there for. But over the last several years I have been at Osgoode as the starting person for career services. I worked with students Asma as the assistant dean of student services. I've transitioned to one of the other law schools in Toronto the youth of where we had an internationally trained Boyer's program that I began and after some time transition to the Ryerson University where I'm at now where we had a new program that again that I helped to develop Karbalaa practice program. And so I've been in legal education for a lot longer than I was in practice for a buddy here I worked in government again doing the education for lawyers so I've I've certainly been on the side of a practice in various ways for a long time now. Jeena Cho: [00:04:20] So you know it's something that you said is something that I often hear as you know you start your law practice and you have a certain idea of what it's going to be like. And I think it's really hard to know especially doing something like litigation what it's actually like to do litigation day in and day out without actually having done it. And law school is often up or preparatory Skoff actually every year the ins and outs of what that's actually like. So when you said you know just something about litigation wasn't right for me. Can you talk a little bit more about that. How did you know that it wasn't right for you and what about who was just not suited to who you are. Gina Alexandris: [00:05:01] Great question. And I get that over the years by many students and even junior lawyers new lawyers who are finding themselves sort that kind of question. And it's it's also one of the reasons why I think I love the fact that we're starting this new law school here in Rodgerson because trying to get that experience in early on is important. But you don't know until you do it. And I think that's that's really critical too to know. I went to law school and I hear this all the time I read it in personal statements for applicants to law schools. I went into law school. So I wanted to help people. I wanted to help people solve their problem the solutions. And I've been involved in my parents. I'm a child of immigrants and they've been involved in a litigation matter and I didn't like how they experience that process. And that was the resolve for me that I was going to go to law school and do something about that so that others like my parents would never have to deal with that again. So those are the transition from thinking I'd go into teaching to going into law and in practice I really loved meeting with the kid with the. So [00:06:03] I really loved listening to them and hearing what their problems were and trying to find the legal solutions to it. I'm a natural talker and so I enjoyed the preparation for court and you know appearing in court and actually making arguments in favor of my client. The part that I didn't like and it sort of yes it's part of civil litigation and family for sure is that conflict. And while there are a host of lawyers who are practicing who are trying to build their practices and family law and in civil litigation in a less confrontational way nevertheless our current system still still requires that. And for me it just wasn't part of how I wanted to be as a as a person. And I found myself at odds with that. So you know what I thought OK what if I transition to something more solicitor based. I really like the concept of litigation. And for me I don't think I'd want to do more solicitor based work whether it's contract drafting or Wills and the statesetc. and I just found that when I was able to find something within legal Ed it was really I had those aha moments right this is where I really belong. I was able to marry what I really had a passion for with the substance and the materials that I had spent you know learning in law school. Jeena Cho: [00:07:28] You know it is so once you sort of realize hey you know I sort of ended up on a path that isn't suited for me. I know for myself and also just having worked with lawyers over the years that that often comes with a tremendous sense of guilt or even some sort of feeling of failure or you know this feeling like oh I don't know what to do now. You know like the wind that I had so much time preparing or is just not right for me. [00:07:59] So what do I do. They go through cause I think as lawyers we identify so much of who we are what we do. So we as kind of go through some sort of an identity crisis. She goes through with that. And if he did how did you manage it. Gina Alexandris: [00:08:13] Oh boy did I ever. And you know it's interesting because you seek out so and as I said before a child of immigrants I didn't have a lot of role models if any in the legal profession to start with right so that itself is something that I always try and give back to people as much as possible. But nevertheless for me when I decide to go to law school I can tell you the family was proud. Right. They were having a daughter not only go to university but off to law school and then become a lawyer and people whether you know what a lawyer does or not you have this idea that you know what a lawyer does. [00:08:47] Right. And so for me that identity was very strong and very much a part of who I was. And so I spent about four years in practice and of course early on I would hear my supervisors or my senior lawyers saying it's all part of a learning curve. You just have to get over those first four or five years. And I thought OK. So if something miraculously changed after four or five years I wasn't feeling like there was a change. And so in my fourth year I did seek the support of a career counselor a career coach. And I remember her saying at one point when we were chatting and she said something about oh well do you have fun in your work. And I paused. I gave her a strange look and she said to me what's wrong I said Do you remember what I said that I do actually I'm a lawyer and she said yes. And if you can't have fun being a lawyer then maybe we need to look at something else. And so that sort of moment was was a turning point for me. I realized I wanted to find something that I really truly enjoyed doing and if not 70s you know not all the time and then the most part of my working days. And for me I have to tell you when I made the decision and found an opportunity to leave the practice and go into the legal education area the biggest my biggest worry and a huge huge huge weight on my shoulders was how do I tell my father. Here is a man who had you know third grade education back in Greece came to Canada. Building a life for his family so proud of his daughter that you know was a lawyer. How am I going to tell him for me. That conversation was one that I was so nervous about having and Jeena. I remember having him over to the house for dinner and after dinner anxiously cussing said Daddy not that I want to tell you about. I'm going to change jobs new looked and said OK and he said and I said I'm not going to be a lawyer anymore and that those words just saying those words were excruciating to me and he looked at me and he paused and he said are you going to be happy. [00:10:55] And I kind of went I think so it's a good. I hope you are in and tell me about where you're going to work. And I thought well what I worry about all this time around ain't no. But yet it was that identity and that sense of oh I have to keep doing this because everybody thinks I should and I'm carrying it for whoever else you know I'm carrying for was a huge weight. And over the years I realize nobody really is going to. That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. Jeena Cho: [00:11:22] Right. And even if even if for some reason Ito they were to have some sort of negative reaction. It's also sort of like well that's their reaction and you can't be responsible for other people's reactions. Absolutely. Gina Alexandris: [00:11:36] No absolutely. And reminding myself of that was critical as well. Jeena Cho: [00:11:40] Yeah yeah well yeah I mean it's so funny listening to your story is so much like mine. And when I told my parents are not going well I mean I still practice a little bit but you know and I basically said I have a law is no longer going to be my primary focus and I'm going to teach mindfulness meditation to other lawyers. They just look at me like it's not a race because it's also sort of like a made up job in a way. Gina Alexandris: [00:12:08] Well think about it back then this was over 20 years ago the career development office where I started the creative element opposite our law school and so our colleagues and friends in theU.S. men are you know appreciate that but we didn't have career officers career services offices in Canada back in back about 20 years ago and so I was set to start that. And so figuring out how to describe what I do to people you know my colleagues my friends what's a career development officer career services person what do they do every day. You know over the years I've just found ways to explain what I do and if I have to say I'm a lawyer that's not practicing I do that too right. Jeena Cho: [00:12:47] Yeah. Yeah. And like not having that hail of being a lawyer is surprisingly high. It's one of sort of like the big hurdles that I often have to work with my coaching clients. It's like well like I just like having that title it's need it's clear people understand what that means. It's not like you know if say like oh I help people do at her know I guess career transition or career coach isn't such an unusual job title anymore. [00:13:15] But yet you know. So I think it's it's kind of fine to not have sort of a traditional job title anymore I can put an interesting spin on it. So it's going to go back to your story. How did you go from that sort of recognizing that OK I'm not going to be a lawyer anymore. Finding your way into what you're doing now. What was that journey like. Gina Alexandris: [00:13:38] Oh wow. I find it in retrospect. There are so many similarities. And you know when you look back you can see oh yeah that's not that much of a surprise in fact. So as I said earlier I had always had an interest in teaching. I didn't know what that meant if it was going to be in primary school. High school university but but in education some way shape or form. So when the first opportunity to start the career office came I thought great because I'll be able to help people. And remember that's why I kind of wanted to go to law school. I liked what my career coach had done and I think being able to help guide people in that context was was important and it was in an educational environment again. And my alma mater where I felt really comfortable and and happy to be back. So that was for a couple of years and then at that point the role of Assistant Dean of Student Services came up. We'd had a bit of transition at the school there had been three different people in four years in that role and I thought you know the next person who gets that role might be there for a long time. So I even though I was only in the career office for a couple of years I thought let me put my hat in the ring. Who knows. I'm taking a chance at this point and I did and I got the role. And I was thrilled. And in fact I was the one who was in the role for the next nine years. It was really incredible. It stretched me because I had never really before dealt with administrative work from from a schools perspective. So dealing with the admissions dealing with programs and records dealing with the career office and our financial aid it was it was incredible. And when people would say OK but you're dealing with the same issues year in year out my comment would be twofold. First of all schools make changes regularly. And secondly every year you've got a new group of students with their new with their own interests passions goals challenges. And so it was it was not boring at all being in that kind of environment for those years. But at some point I thought what happens next. Where do I. What do I do next. I was sort of itching for some kind of change in talking about transitions right. There was an opportunity at our at another school in Toronto to start a program for internationally trained lawyers to help them develop skills and build networks. When they're new to the province into the country and wanted to transition to be lawyers in the country and for me that was important for a number of reasons primarily. Again the immigrant experience from my parents perspective is one that I carry with me Jeena and I don't know if you know you or other members of the audience can appreciate it but knowing what my parents have gone through are not necessarily in a context of a professional degree accreditation but just that immigrant experience that as different as it is for people it's also very similar. And I wanted to be able to build something to help support at least a member of some members of that community. Those who were who had legal backgrounds. But what I found was I also liked the entrepreneurial spirit and what I mean by that is you know I kind of like starting things from scratch. I started the career office I started that and I realized by the time I came here to Ryerson that I really do like and I think I'm pretty decent at starting you know looking at the needs looking at the program development requirements and then putting together a team putting together the resources putting together the program and being able to then deliver for a group of people. There's a third role that I had that I have right now is a new program here at Ryerson that well I guess we're five years in I'll still say do that again we started with two people you know four people sharing two offices very little in terms of you know phone space and whatnot and have a great project that's and beneficial to over a thousand you know new or almost new lawyers in the province. And so and we're working on sort of a new law school here at the at the university so that new the ability to create something always within the context for me at least for now in law has been really really invigorating. Jeena Cho: [00:18:12] And so I want to switch gears just a little bit. Kind of staying with that whole career transition and maybe you can offer some tips or suggestions or advice for the listeners out there that are perhaps also struggling with that feeling of like this past this area that I've been to hanging by this thing that I've been doing for such a long time. I went to law school for and now I have student loan data. And on and on and on is no longer right for me and I think once you start to kind of tune in to that voice inside it doesn't just vanish. Gina Alexandris: [00:18:45] Louder. Jeena Cho: [00:18:46] Yeah that's right. I thought oh no we're not having this conversation. And I told myself I was being on grateful that you know I should be happy doing exactly what I wanted to do that I was spoiled. And how dare I not enjoy this. I work so hard to do it. So when someone starts to hear that voice you know what let's say the next three steps that they should consider taking so let's start with the very first step what's that. The first thing is you start to do if they start to get that nagging feeling inside. Gina Alexandris: [00:19:19] Well I think you hit on when you said pause and honor the voice it's telling you something. And and I think we need to spend spend some time and be able to actually give that voice. And I think what holds us back from doing so is fear. What if I really don't like this and I have to make a change. And you know all those other sabotage you know saboteur kind of thinking that you just mentioned the guilt the failure the whether it's embarrassment or the debt that you've got. So we don't want to take that you know take the cap off the box because who knows what will come from it. And I think if it's there it's unlikely to go away just to take some time to honor it doesn't mean they have to go one way or the other. But just let it let it play out the end here. The second thing that I would say is then to really do some reflection on values what's important and I think when I started doing that for myself and when I do that with students or others that I come in contact with who have that voice in them think about what's important to you. [00:20:34] Now why are you doing this. I said earlier and I think I've set a all times I want to help people. Now is a value that was important to me the immigrant experience diversity. Those are things that are really important to me and what you start looking at is you know are you able to honor those values in the place that you are now. And sometimes a shift as simple as perhaps it's another employer perhaps it's an area of law. Perhaps it's the type of organization that you're working in but still practicing the same thing. Those might be the types of changes that are relevant for an individual. And other times it might be leaving the practice right. It doesn't have to be all of that. It could be any part of that as you're thinking about what changes might be more reflective of the values that you bring a third element I think is when you're listening and I'm torn between two third options so might be a third it's either what it could do to the third the one element is don't be afraid to talk to people. I think we sometimes are too much in our heads. Yeah and lawyers have that uncanny ability to try and analyze everything and solve every problem on their own. Their mind where it louder and louder and louder right at the end. [00:22:11] And sometimes that can be really that alone can can be anxiety provoking and you start questioning and doubting everything. So talking to somebody find a trusted person that you can just chat with you don't have to tell the world you know. But if you want tweeted out and get some feedback that works for people for others just being able to find a trusted whether it's a friend a mentor a supervisor a coach you know an advisor in any way just to talk through that. I think that's really important because sometimes in our own heads and our own minds the issue becomes greater than what it might be. But at other times we just want another perspective. Right. So. [00:22:56] So that would be one and I think the fourth I want to say is I don't know about you but when I started thinking about this and talking about things all of a sudden we're almost like you know the phrase I don't remember who initiated it and who said it first but once you start asking about some of the world's big Sakti of the universe speaks about you guys. And then opportunities started you know coming up that I had never even heard about. I've never even considered before because you're open and I think being open to it as scary as change can be. Being open to those possibilities is very important because then you seem to notice them even more so around Jeena raid ha. Jeena Cho: [00:23:43] And you know the other thing I think I love that point about talking to other people because often I do find that lawyers want to sort of figure out which they should do next in their own head but without gathering data. Right. And it makes its make a life change like Akridge Idzik. You need a lot of data like what. [00:24:02] You know if you're thinking like OK maybe I want to shift to being on HRT purchase and well what does that world look like on a day to day basis. You're not going to be able to figure that out in your head without gathering data. But because say find out lawyers are sort of hesitant because they think well what if I do talk to this person that's in a charro maybe even you know talk to someone that loves law to move into a china and find out that's not right for me and I'm like That's great. Gina Alexandris: [00:24:27] If they start eliminating. Jeena Cho: [00:24:30] They think of getting out of bad binary way of thinking as you know seeing everything as success or failure and seeing things as gathering data and that you know eliminating things and adding things and playing around and only seeing your life as a collaborator away you could run different experiments and see what works and really getting out of that you know that that world of failure which I think is so ingrained then says lawyers. Gina Alexandris: [00:24:57] You know it's interesting because one of the things that both for this program and as a as we're sort of moving forward with with a future law school I also wanted to see what is out there currently in legal education that includes creativity and its title. And I have to tell you I did some research and I didn't come up with a whole law so it made me realize when we talk about lawyers and I just said we're data driven. It's important to us but we're also solving problems and to be able to solve problems. And this is where you know the resiliency that you talk about so often is so critical when you're looking to solve problems and come up with creative solutions and understand deeply and deeper what is happening around you. Tippett We need to use the creative parts of your mind and we don't explore that as much and tap into that as much thriftily education and sometimes in practice you know creativity is what you do when you go to an art night or when you're dancing or when you're whatever else. That's also what we do when we come up with solutions for our clients on a day to day basis. Jeena Cho: [00:26:05] Yeah yeah I think it's her nurturing it and that side of you. And I had the exact same experience I used it I started working with a career coach and the first thing she asked me was like What do you do for fun. What do you do that as no other function except to give you that sense of joy. And I looked at her like what he says like fine. [00:26:27] I don't even understand that word like a bad TV. As a girl why would I do that. Like why would I create art. It has nothing to do with my work. It doesn't help me write motions issues like oh but it does it help your brain to wire and think in a different way and if you think about it like we often get our best idea is doing something completely unrelated and sitting there staring at our screen trying to figure things out. Now you have those aha moments when you're going on a long walk or when you're painting or when you're just lost and doing some other activity that you hinted at isn't like. Let me sit down and get this out. Gina Alexandris: [00:27:05] Absolutely. No it's silvery tunes so that's why I think you know that creative and part of gathering information is and is being creative about you know who are you going to speak with so you don't necessarily I often push people and say all right who would be the person that you never thought you would need to thought or would be able to reach out to. How can you actually tap in and speak to them and learn what they have to say or how about if you find somebody that's doing something really you know sort of out of the ordinary in your mind and ask them about it ask them how they got there what they're doing. And it it really throws people out of their comfort zone sometimes. And that's exactly why I encourage them to keep doing that. Get out of your comfort zone meet with people who are in real different areas potentially as well as people who are close to what you do. But don't you know don't limit yourself to the information to the data that you have because I think if we do limit ourselves and to some degree that that might be what we're doing you know through our three years of university of law school we sort of limit who we talk to and what options we consider for a variety of reasons. And then we get out there we think Oh now it's Friday. Keep that broad perspective. Jeena Cho: [00:28:23] Yeah. Yeah it reminds me of Kalimba who said one of those like Zen Masters said. He said that in the beginner's mind that there. There are endless possibilities but in the mind of an expert there if you say think when it comes to something like career transition I almost feel like you just sort of lost everything that you think you know about career transition and really have a Pucho with that sense of almost like childlike curiosity because you're sort of like starting from scratch in many ways and you want to sort of explore all the different opportunities and possibilities and you can't do that if you're going into it with like the mind of the expert. Gina Alexandris: [00:29:07] Absolutely. Now I think being open and and seeing where things leads you right. So you go down one or it might not be the exact door but another one might have opened during that conversation that you want to explore. And and again not being afraid to explore those doors sometimes we fear or what if I really really like it and and and then what do I leave this comfort that I have right now for that discomfort of something brand new not in my you know when I thing I would never be able to go into rocket science right or into so many other things. But that I would at least want to find out what they do. There might be something related to it. Never would I have thought here's an example. When I was at that the first at Osgoode in my first trial there were no programs for internationally educated lawyers. Each school had a small element or component but never during those years would I have thought that there'd be an opportunity to start a program for specifically for internationally educated lawyers. And in addition if you had asked me or anybody else several years back I'm in the city of Toronto if I wanted to be in legal education. There were two schools that I would be working at as either at or that whole school year diversity or at the University of Toronto. But lo and behold within a period of you know five to 10 years the third University in Toronto Ryerson University has all this changed its well and is looking very much of interest to the legal community and is doing something that wasn't there several years back. Technology is giving us that as well. Things that you haven't dissipated might be possible now become possible so limiting ourselves I think is and that's one of the I think of those four things that we talked about being open listening to what others say exploring really really listening to your own voice and your own values I think is critical. And just taking some chances sometimes too. Jeena Cho: [00:31:12] Hmm well I think that's a perfect place to wrap things out. Jeena before I let you go I have one final question for you. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be The Resilient Lawyer to you. Gina Alexandris: [00:31:25] I think being a resilient lawyer would include being kind to ourselves being compassionate and knowing that we'll be able to bounce back and that things have a way of working out as long as we're kind and caring to ourselves first and foremost. Jeena Cho: [00:31:44] Jeena thank you so much for your time and for sharing your wisdom with the audience I really appreciate it. Gina Alexandris: [00:31:50] It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much and my regards to all who are listening. Thank you. Closing: [00:31:58] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show to leave us a review on iTunes. Search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that. So we really appreciate it. As always we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile at the anxious lawyer dot com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Janine Sickmeyer on to talk about her journey in starting her legal tech business and the importance of mindfulness and wellness for her and her team. Janine is the CEO and Founder of NextChapter, a web application for attorneys to prepare, manage and file their bankruptcy cases online. Janine is particularly fascinated in the intersection between law and technology, and is passionate about sharing her story with female entrepreneurs and business leaders to help them overcome challenges when starting a new venture. In addition to being a legal tech CEO, Janine is also a wife and mother to two, with twins on the way! Topics Covered Both boundaries she sees for female business founders, and how she avoids burnout for herself and her employees in a legal tech startup. How mindfulness plays a role in developing relationships with employees and clients. The importance of philanthropy in your business, and how it aids in personal growth for herself and her employees. Learn more about Janine at: NextChapter Twitter Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Janine Sickmeyer: [00:00:01] When you can take time to think more clearly about it about the situation and just being aware of what the actual problem is and how to resolve that. It's just you know it's going to help the employees and clients. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends thanks for being with us today. In this episode I'm so happy to have Janine. She is the CEO and founder of Next Chapter a web application for attorneys to prepare manage and filed their bankruptcy cases online. She is particularly fascinated with the intersection between law and technology and is passionate about sharing her story with female entrepreneurs and business leaders to help them overcome challenges when starting a new venture. In addition to being a legal tech CEO she is also white a mother of two with twins on the way. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they don't have the time. I always tell the lawyers just that it was 6 minutes to a point one hour of all the hours he dedicate to your client work and others don't deserve to have a point one hour to yourself mindful pauses is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your wellbeing. Head on over to Jeena Cho. Com to learn more. Check it out and the show notes. And with that huge Janine Janine welcome to the show. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:02:08] Hi Jeena thanks so much for having me and thanks for all you do for legal professionals. Jeena Cho: [00:02:15] Thank you so much. So to get us started. Love to have you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:02:22] Of course. [00:02:23] So as you said I am CEO and founder of Next Chapter and next chapter is a web application for attorneys to prepare and manage their bankruptcy cases online. Prior to this I was a paralegal in the bankruptcy field. It was on the consumer side. I did that for several years and I just I saw a need in the market for something like Next job there a web based application. There are other applications that are a desktop in that space and I created next chapter just out of a need to fill the market. So I've been doing that for almost five years now and we launched about two years ago and it took about two and a half years to build but now that we are. You know kind of established Jeena out there we were just trying new things and to get new clients and adding new products. And it's been been a really fun venture. Jeena Cho: [00:03:23] Yeah I peak you and I connect that because the listeners probably know my husband and I have a bankruptcy. So I think we may have met like net worth. Can get help. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:03:34] Actually yeah actually I remember this because I was in San Francisco for Dreamforce which is a sales force compromise. This was back in 2013. So this was right there as getting started and we met up at Peets Coffee. I sent you an email to see if you would talk with me just about you know. Being a bankruptcy attorney. And I knew that you and your husband were you know innovative and looking into I could just tell from your website. Frankly I believe at the time so when you love from Web sites or you know a little a little dated. And I was like well maybe I could meet up with her and see what she would think about this idea. So I remember meeting with you for coffee and sharing you just sketches and talking about it before it was even a product. Jeena Cho: [00:04:28] So I learned Yeah yeah we remember that. Yeah. Sure. Thanks Janine Sickmeyer: [00:17:07] Yeah it was it was funny because I met with a lot of investors on that trip and basically anyone that I could talk to. I was like I'm going to try to reach out to any bankruptcy attorneys any investors you know potential clients whoever I have. It was like researching kind of. Experience for me. So it was really it was really cool. Jeena Cho: [00:17:24] So you know it's kind of rare being a female founder. I'm curious if you can just share a little bit about that journey of becoming an entrepreneur and starting a tech company. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:17:35] Yes it is. It is a little bit rare especially about five years ago. And in the legal market and even more narrow the bankruptcy market. So there. You know. I feel like it's starting to kind of come around. You know there's a lot more female founders that are starting tech companies but there's still not enough resources out there for them. And I'm actually. Playing with the idea of starting my own typecast and I don't know writing a book to help female founders. And I'm I'm working on that now. It's you know a little bit of a challenge to fit in with my current current position here and also with all the kids on the way. [00:18:13] So it's it may take a little bit of time but I have some pretty good ideas of how you know what women are looking for when they're trying to start a tech company and how challenging it can be I guess to get out in front of investors especially when they're you know kind of wondering when the next step of your life is going to be. And it's you know I don't think that that's always. [00:18:32] That's always important when it comes to business if you're you know looking to start a business. [00:18:36] It's OK if you also want to start a family you know. Right. Jeena Cho: [00:18:39] And of course men do it all the time. We're not the person responsible for raising the children. So yeah. So I know you have like lots of balls in the air that you are juggling you know how do you keep yourself from burning out. How do you go about nourishing yourself and maintaining your well-being. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:18:55] Well it's for me personally. I do a lot of a lot of the physical wellness where I'm going to bar classes. [00:19:01] I do yoga. I'm doing spinning you know running a lot of that really helps me just kind of unwind and you know free balance after a long day either you know with kids or with the business with with work. We actually do a lot. And next chapter to kind of avoid that burnout and help kind of get everyone back together and you know just have a little more human interaction because we're all behind the screens all day long talking to our clients and trying to find new ways to find clients. And we actually we have a lot of remote employees too. So we think our team is 14 right now. And there are six of us in our headquarters so the rest of the team is anywhere from Serbia to New York to California. And we actually we do like annual retreats to bring everyone together to make sure that we're not just working in that set and you know day in and day out. So we do a lot of our annual retreats involve a lot of team building activities and bonding and personal development. And it's it's a lot of fun because it gets us together. And I think that's one of the you know one of the main things that we've been able to help with avoiding burnout for them I know especially our developers and you know the designers and those kind of more task oriented positions. Jeena Cho: [00:20:19] And I know that you are a proponent and a practitioner of mindfulness. How did you end the practice saying that it should go about getting into mindfulness. [00:20:29] Yes. So when I was first starting the next chapter it was very lonely. I feel like you know just building a company from scratch can can just be a difficult thing. And I was working in the coffee shops and you know late nights and I didn't have an office yet. You know and Next Chapter was just this idea that I was like I'm passionate about. But it felt you know very stressful too. [00:20:53] And so as much as I loved it there was a lot of anxiety that came with that and I had a lot of loneliness just developing with a few you know a few people through the Internet. And that was it. So I started to take to mindfulness and work on myself when I you know I found that it was just getting very overwhelming to start a business by yourself. So I started meditating. I. [00:21:16] It's not something that comes easy. That was that was something that I had to practice every day. And you know it's weird at first you're like What am I supposed to be doing or thinking about. Am I doing this right. Well yeah but I feel like after I started to develop this habit it was actually very very enlightening and helped me bring back you know all of that stress and kind of let that go and just spring back you know what my actual goals were and think more clearly about how to resolve issues. I actually do a lot of that now with my children too with Elouise about my daughter. She's two and a half and before bed time she's you know a little wild up or kind of a grumpy mood or something. I will you know I'll say let's sit down together and practice our breathing and just you know dim the lights and all kind of have this exercise together. And we've been doing that since she was you know six seven months old and I was like why don't start now. And then she gets it. You know she's like you know when my son's a little wound up he's only one and a half surely he needs to take three deep breaths relax. Guess cute things you know kind of involve that men and some of their favorite little shows. They also talk about it. You know Daniel Tiger is like OK when you're upset count for you know and so she she can relate to that too. Jeena Cho: [00:22:30] And how have you found your mindfulness practice helping you in terms of how you relate to your employees and your clients. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:22:38] Oh yeah I think I think that's when you can take time to think more clearly about it about the situation. [00:22:45] And a lot of times just being aware of of what the actual problem is and how to resolve it. It's just going in you know it's going to help the employees and and clients feel like you know you're actually encouraging them connecting with them better. It's I mean with my employees now I can you know we have a lot of customer support that we deal with with an application like Next Chapter. And so there's a lot of attorneys that are using our product that you know may have run into a snag or a bog or something like that and it can just be very stressful for everyone in the office because we're in a very tight space. So there's like six of us in a very small room so we kind of feed off of each other. You know if there's a difficult client. All of us are kind of in it. And so I'm like you know we we need to find a way to not let these things bother us and just take a break like Get out go on a walk. Just go to yoga. I mean all like basically everybody goes to work out through the middle of the day must be a great way to come back and feel energized and relaxed and really you know once you come back to that to the desk you're like oh that wasn't actually a big deal. [00:23:52] I just needed to get away for a minute and think about what you know the actual problem is so. And then you know it we like to do a lot of our activities together through the day. I think that it will be things like cooking classes or you know we do a lot of volunteer work together. And I think all of that also helps. The company and ultimately helps our clients just feel like we're connected and better mindset about about the business. Jeena Cho: [00:24:17] What are some of the things that you do in your business that makes your business stand out that makes it unique and makes it different from other perhaps other tech companies. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:24:26] So from the very beginning of the business giving back was something that I really wanted to involve in our company and it was it was something that we were all of us were passionate about who kind of started next chapter. And I wanted to find a way to be able to help debtors you know file these bankruptcies but we didn't want to be a consumer facing product at the time. So we kind of found a way to do that through this this one on one model which is is actually inspired by sales force. They they give back the same way. And it's like an integrated philanthropy. We're able to give 1 percent of our equity 1 percent of our time and 1 percent of our product to those and underserved markets. So for us the way we do that is by allowing the attorneys to use the product for free for any pro bono cases. So it's it's been really nice to be able to include that. And you know I know that it's not easy for every company to be able to get back in the same way I think for technology though you can do that with you know students or you know with us we also allow law school students to use next chapter for free. Sometimes professors ask us for their bankruptcy classes if they can use it to you know have their clients or have their students practice. And I think that's you know I think that's really cool. Jeena Cho: [00:25:43] Now I really loved Tad. Thank you so much for your time and for joining me today. Before I let you go the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be The Resilient Lawyer to you. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:25:54] Well I think striving in life after all of the struggles and challenges that it takes to build a company. Jeena Cho: [00:26:01] W. Onderful Janene for the listeners that are out there that want to learn more about you and your company what's the best place for them to go and do that. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:26:08] So you can find next chapter online next chapterB.K. dot com or find us on Twitter. Next chapterB.K. Jeena Cho: [00:26:14] Wonderful. Thank you so much. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:26:16] Oh sure. Thanks so much for having me. Closing: [00:26:17] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Jane Springer on to talk about physical and mental health for the modern woman lawyer. Jane is a Certified Life, Wellness and Style Coach who works primarily with women lawyers who are struggling with their weight due to stress eating. She helps them manage the stress and the eating by teaching them tools that change the way they think so that they can have more energy, lose weight, and have a calmer mind. Jane also serves on the Florida Bar Mental Health and Wellness Committee. Topics Covered The main stressors for a woman lawyer, the coping mechanisms they use to deal with them (like stress eating), and what the results are. How she helps her clients address the underlying feeling that can trigger their coping mechanisms, and how they can change the way they think and feel so that they get different results. What kind of fuel they need to be feeding their bodies so they get the maximum body and brainpower to handle the stressors. She also talks on which kind of movement will serve them best with a busy law practice. Learn more about Jane at: JaneSpringer.com E-mail - jane@janespringer.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Jane Springer: [00:00:00] All the actions that you do come from a thought about it; you may not realize that it was a thought, but that thought generates a feeling inside you. And that feeling drives an action, which might be to grab some candy, or whatever you might go to. And that always creates the result, and the result will point right back to the original thought that you had. Intro: [00:00:26] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:48] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I am really happy to have Jane Springer. She is a certified life wellness and style coach who works primarily with women lawyers who are struggling with their weight due to stress eating. She helps them manage their stress and the eating by teaching them tools that change the way they think so they can have more energy, lose weight, and have a calmer mind. Jane serves on the Florida Bar Mental Health and Wellness Committee. [00:01:15] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. [00:01:58] And with that, here's Jane. Jane, welcome to the show. Jane Springer: [00:02:01] Thank you Jeena, it's a pleasure to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:03] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Jane Springer: [00:02:09] Well my name is Jane Springer, and I am a certified life and wellness coach. I also do style coaching for busy professionals like lawyers, who want to feel put together and confident. So I sort of roll it all into one. My husband is an attorney, so this area of helping women lawyers was really a topic that is of personal interest to me. I have three nieces who are lawyers, so de-stressing and helping women lawyers lose weight is really a sweet spot for me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] Great. So when we talk about wellness, what does wellness mean to you? I think so often we think about it in terms of exercise, but to me it means so much more than that. So I'm curious how you would think about wellness, and what that means. Jane Springer : [00:03:03] To me, wellness is an overall, overarching, broad feeling that you are handling your life well, that you're eating well, that you have energy, you have enthusiasm for what you're doing, you're taking care of your body, mind, and spirit. It's a large, overarching viewpoint. Jeena Cho: [00:03:34] And in your work with women lawyers, what are the main stressors that you see them struggling with? And how do they typically deal with it? Jane Springer: [00:03:46] Well I've interviewed many women lawyers (in addition to my own family members), and what I have found is that their main stressors are worrying about deadlines; there's a brief due, there's an order due, there's research due. So deadlines, demanding clients, and demanding partners. And now that you're available 24/7 it's even more so, because they can reach you at any time. Work and family life balance, trying to leave work in time to pick up your children, trying to have time to spend with your spouse, that's another stressor. And then money. If you are an associate, you may not be making the kind of money that you would really like to make, so you may be worrying about money and your family. But also if you're a solo or duo practitioner, you're concerned about the money coming in and the money going out, and how to pay all the bills and pay your employees. There's a lot of stressors going on. Jeena Cho: [00:04:56] And what are the default tools that lawyers use, or what are some of the coping mechanisms that they use to deal with all the stressors? Jane Springer: [00:05:07] What I have found is: stress eating. In the demanding world that they are in, they may reach for something to eat, something sugary, or a carb or processed food that's fast so they can get back to work. So something to give them a little boost of energy. Stress drinking; that when they get home all they want to do is sit down and have their wine, and they may not eat the way they should. They may have very little time for exercise, or make no time for exercise because there's so much going on. And there's anxiety, depression, you may have weight gain because of all that you're doing and trying to cope with. And it may end up in burn out, or even leaving the profession because of all the stresses involved. Jeena Cho: [00:06:07] So these are self-soothing behaviors that they're engaging in that are not helpful, and that are probably actually exacerbating the situation? Jane Springer: [00:06:19] Yes. Jeena Cho: [00:06:19] So when you start to work with a client, what are some of the first steps that you have them take? How can they change the way they think and feel, so that they stop doing the behaviors that they know are not working for them? Jane Springer: [00:06:36] Back to your point that you just made, what they're getting from those ways of coping (like in the eating and the drinking) is a dopamine hit. And yeah, that will give you energy and lift you up for a little while, and then you crash after that. So it is a habit that you develop. So what I like to do when I work with my clients first is have them explain to me what their main issue is; do they want to lose weight, do they want to de-stress? I find out what their needs are. [00:07:14] I also almost right away will teach them a tool that they can use in looking and examining (because lawyers can be very analytical and critical thinkers, so I like to give them something that they can work with right away) that all the actions you do come from a thought about it; you may not realize that it was a thought, but that thought generates a feeling inside you. And that feeling drives an action, which might be to grab some candy, or whatever you go to. And that always creates the result, and the result will point right back up to the original thought that you have. So I like to teach them that first, so that they understand the consequences and the results that they get from the thoughts and the feelings that they have. That's the first thing I do. Jeena Cho: [00:08:10] Okay, so if we can actually drill down a little bit and use a specific example. Let's say it's Friday at 4 pm, I'm getting ready to run out the door and I have weekend plans, and the partner comes up to my desk and says, "Hey, I actually need you to work on this motion to dismiss this weekend." What would be an example of a thought that would trigger this cycle? Jane Springer: [00:08:35] I'll never finish that by 5 pm, or by 6 pm that I have to pick up my child by. Jeena Cho: [00:08:42] Right, and now my weekend is ruined; I'm not going to be able to go away with my girlfriends, or whatever it is that I had planned for the weekend. And then what is the behavior that follows that thought? Jane Springer: [00:08:54] Well the first thing that happens after the thought is a feeling that you get inside. So the feeling would be either anxiety, because you've got this work assignment that you weren't planning on having. But whatever the feeling is, disappointment that you can't do what you were going to do with your family or your girlfriends, but you identify the feeling.. Jeena Cho: [00:09:16] So anger, frustration, outrage. Jane Springer: [00:09:22] Exactly, all those things. And from there, what is the action that you take? You realize you've got to do this work, so you undertake doing the work; you either stay late, or you're tied up over the weekend. But when you're doing it, you are feeling very resentful and under more pressure because your family or friends are disappointed as well, it's affected your whole weekend. So your feeling at that point is resentment, maybe still anger, it could be anything. And then your action is you're doing the work that needs to be done, but you may not do it to the best of your ability or focus, because of the feelings that you have involved. And the result is, you may have a work product that's not your best work; there may be errors in it, and it may not be your best product. Jeena Cho: [00:10:28] And the action could also be, you know what I just don't have the capacity to deal with this right now. I'm going to go home, open up a bottle of wine, and I'm going to treat myself for a few glasses, and then we'll see how I feel in the morning about this whole work situation. Jane Springer: [00:10:44] Exactly, that's exactly what can happen as well. And then the result is your resolve to eat healthy for dinner may go out the window, your interaction with your family may be affected because you're still angry and frustrated. So the results are less than ideal, for sure. Jeena Cho: [00:11:15] So when you're working with your client.. I mean, I understand that obviously going home and drinking to excess, or sitting down with a bag of potato chips or a pint of ice cream or whatever may not be the best way to soothe those feelings. Then I also get that you're then saying try eating some pistachios or cashews, instead of eating that gallon of ice cream. But how do you help the clients actually address that underlying feeling? Jane Springer: [00:11:47] The first thing I do is help them identify the process that they just went through, by using the tool. What I tell them is, let's be curious about this; not with a spirit of condemnation, but with curiosity about how this process happens. And also, be compassionate. Because it always is better for yourself when you're being compassionate than when you're in a negative state of mind about yourself. First of all, we're curious about what drove this action and all that, but then I help them to turn it around. And then we use that tool again, but in a way that has a more positive action end result. [00:12:44] So let's say this happened, your partner came to the door and said I need you to have this done by 8 am on Monday. Instead of immediately reacting, I recommend that they stop; take a pause, as you were talking about you're Mindful Pause, stop and take five deep breaths. Take an inhale, hold it for a little bit, and just let it out so that you can decompress that moment right when that happens. Then think about what drove the thought, but then we're going to think about what might be a better action? And you can attack it from the result-action feeling or thought. Or you can attack at the other direction, what thought would you need to come up with that would be better? Because what you're doing is creating new neuropathways; you're going to really develop and use your brain. [00:13:59] And lawyers are smart, so they're going to be able to identify with this. But you want to develop new neuropathways, and then the more you repeat that thought, that action, that feeling, the old thought is going to recede. So instead of reacting like, he's so he's so thoughtless to do this at the last minute to me, your new thought might be, "Okay I can handle this. I've done it before, I can do it again. Perhaps I can work out a way to finish this and still have some family time." But come up with a thought that turns around your brain, so that you can handle it better. And then from that thought, I can figure this out (that's a good one, I use that one a lot) and maybe still have some time with my family or my friends. And then the feeling from that is definitely calmer, you're not going to have that frustration to that level. And then the action you take is, okay well I'm going to work on this from this to this time, and then from this to this time, I'm the set aside for my friends or my family. And the result is, you get the paper done, but you also got at least some time with your family. So I'm helping them work a model that turns around the negative. Jeena Cho: [00:15:29] Does that also involve sometimes helping the clients to set boundaries? Because I think so often that happens with women lawyers, they let everyone pile work on them, without any consideration as to how much work they can realistically do, and do well. Jane Springer: [00:15:48] Yeah, I totally agree with that. One option, and I know that it's intimidating if you're an associate and it's the partner that comes to your door. But you can say I'm sorry, I need to do this right now, or I have plans for the weekend but I will come in early on Monday morning and do whatever it is that they assigned you to do. So yes, I definitely agree on setting reasonable boundaries for sure. Otherwise, they'll just keep dumping that stuff on you. Jeena Cho: [00:16:21] Right. So let's shift gears a little bit, and talk about actually feeling the body. What are some of the suggestions that you have for feeding the body, so that lawyers can get the maximum body and brain power to handle all of these different stressors? Jane Springer: [00:16:40] Well it probably won't be a popular way of looking at it, but I would say limit your sugar and your flour, your processed foods. And the reason for that is, I mean everybody says you should quit sugar, but your body really does not need them. It wasn't made for them, and it actually drains your natural energy. It's going to give you a boost right away, but then it's going to come right back down. What happens when you raise your blood sugar with sugar or flour products, it raises your blood sugar, but it also raises your insulin level. And insulin is a fat-storing hormone, so you don't want to eat those types of food because the result will be you'll have more fat storing, especially around your middle and liver. So avoiding sugar and flour products, and eating whole foods; having a healthy fat, a protein, green, leafy, colorful vegetables, that will give you your maximum energy. And then my recommendation is to limit your alcohol, but that's always up to the individual. It does take you out of a fat burning state into another state that is not as good for your body, and it also changes your resolve. You're having empty calories; it may relax you, but it's also going to relax you making good choices, in terms of diet and exercise. So yeah, healthy fat, protein, green, leafy, colorful vegetables, and limit your blood sugar, insulin, and alcohol. Jeena Cho: [00:18:32] When you say limit alcohol, now the lawyer in me is like well how much is too much, and what do you mean when you say limit? So if you had to offer some general guideline, in terms of let's say daily consumption, how many servings are we talking about? Jane Springer: [00:18:47] I hate to even say that, because I don't really know. I am not an alcohol drinker myself, so I can't really address that. All I know is that the clients that I work with, they have a very tough time losing weight when they're still consuming two or more glasses of a wine a day. Jeena Cho: [00:19:13] Yeah, you know the food rule that I really like, that I think really kind of keep things simple is.. are you familiar with Michael Pollan? Jane Springer: [00:19:20] Yes. Jeena Cho: [00:19:21] He says, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. And I think that's such a great rule to live by, eat real food. And he also suggests shopping in the outside of the grocery store, not in the middle where all the boxed and canned and frozen stuff lives, and sticking to the outside of the grocery store where all the produce is. So I think having these simple rules, because I feel like we are so bombarded with all these different things that we're trying to keep in our heads, and I think having too many food restrictions is very taxing. At least I find it to be very taxing, to try to remember what it is a grain that I'm supposed to eat and I'm not supposed to eat? And I think obviously finding something that works for you is super important too. Jane Springer: [00:20:17] Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that's pretty much what I do as well. Anything you're going to find in the middle of the aisles is going to be processed food for the most part. Anytime you've crushed and condensed any kind of flour down, down, down, and then made it into some concoction with chemicals and stuff to hold it together so it can stay on the shelf longer, it's going to drive your insulin up. So I totally agree with you. Now I will say that frozen vegetables can be a real handy thing for busy lawyers, because when they freeze those vegetables they do it right away. Sometimes those vegetables are more fresh (as long as you don't cook them to death) than the ones you'll find that have been sitting around out in the outer. Jeena Cho: [00:21:16] Let's talk briefly about movement, and I also notice that you use that word movement and not exercise. I tend to be somewhat allergic to that word exercise because that makes it sound like something that I have to do. Whereas movement is just something that I naturally do. So what kind of movements do you recommend for busy lawyers? Jane Springer: [00:21:38] First of all, I recommend that if you can do it early in the day, before work or on your lunch hour, you're much more likely to continue to do it, because that's when you have the energy. You're going to be less likely to do it in the evenings, put it that way. So the time of day is important. And I recommend walking; even if you're at your desk, you've got an assignment due or a brief to finish or whatever. Getting up and walking around, or getting up and walking the stairs if you're in a building that has stairs, just take a break. Walking, at a minimum. And you should do a form of movement that you'll continue to do, and it's something that interests you or is fun. So if going to the gym is fun for you and you'll stick with it, do that. if you liked to bicycle as a kid, try cycling. If you like to swim, do that. Run, if that makes you feel good. Walking, yoga, any kind of slow movement like that will help your anxiety levels. I think you should go with what interests you, and what you're most likely to stick with. Jeena Cho: [00:22:59] Yeah, I think that's such great advice. Also, I noticed throughout my life, I at different times I've felt more pulled to different types of movements than others. Like when I was younger I used to do a lot of rock climbing, and then once I got older I was like, you know it's not really my thing anymore. So now I do more yoga and walking and hiking; I love going on long hikes, where I can free-up the brain. I find it to be very therapeutic, that physical activity and movement, that consistent movement. And seeing the beauty and being able to breathe in the fresh air and all that stuff. So I think that's also important, to try to find something that works for you in that moment. Obviously, you know, if you're pregnant you're going to do something different than when you're not, and all the different.. If you have little kids, you might also have to adjust what you do for movement. Jane Springer: [00:23:54] And I totally agree with you about the hiking in nature, if it's at all possible. I know for my husband, when he's de-stressing from what he's been working on, if we go on a hike on Saturday it totally changes his mood, and mine too. Because I love being out in nature and spending time together, but it does have a way of freeing up your brain, with the beauty and just getting away and being in nature. Jeena Cho: [00:24:28] Yeah, yeah. And also, it's a great time to chat with your spouse while you're going on one. I find that when I'm able to have a little more spaciousness and talk to my husband, I tend to be more relaxed about it and I feel like the conversations go better. As opposed to if we're sitting over dinner and we're completely stressed out, and it's like alright we have to figure this thing out. And then I get more snappy and more agitated. Jane Springer: [00:24:52] Yes, we do the same thing. It may be 9:00 by the time he de-stresses and comes down enough to.. and then we don't really feel like having a deep, meaningful conversation at that time. So we definitely have more meaningful conversations when we're walking outside, for sure. Jeena Cho: [00:25:13] Great. So one final question for you before I let you go. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Jane Springer: [00:25:25] To me, it's a lawyer, a person who is able to bounce back from a disappointment. And they keep on going, but with a healthy attitude. There's no self-imposed pressure or condemnation that they might have lost a case. And then one who's a resilient lawyer is someone who knows how to take care of themselves, so that they can bounce back and have the maximum energy and their maximum brainpower. And also to tag onto that, the resilient lawyer is one who bounces back with compassion and kindness for themselves, because I think that's super important. Jeena Cho: [00:26:10] Great response. Jane, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your wisdom. Jane Springer: [00:26:15] You're very welcome, it was a pleasure being here. Closing: [00:26:20] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode I am excited to have Joan Williams on to talk about gender and race, and how they play out in the workplace through her new "Bias at Work" survey. Joan is a Distinguished Professor of Law and Founding Director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings. Her path-breaking work helped create the field of work-family studies and modern workplace flexibility policies. She has been studying the legal profession and how to improve it for decades. Topics Covered She defines implicit bias and examples of the four basic ways they can show up at work: Prove It Again, Tightrope, Maternal Wall, and Tug of War. Why WorkLife Law created the "Bias at Work" survey, and it's goal. How the types of subtle bias that are captured in the "Bias at Work" survey affect lawyers. What law firms and legal organizations can do to stop these subtle biases from affecting their employees. Learn more about Joan at: Bias Interrupters | Small Steps, Big Change Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Joan Williams: [00:00:00] Implicit bias is a technical term that I use because most people know it, it implies that the bias that's going around is unconscious and subtle. And I think actually that's quite misleading, I think a lot of it is pretty blatant. And I frankly don't think it's that important, whether the person who's engaged in biased behavior chooses to bring that to their consciousness or not. Intro: [00:00:27] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:47] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I have Joan Williams. She is a Distinguished Professor of Law and Founding Director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings. Her path-breaking work helped create the field of work-family studies and modern workplace flexibility policies. She has been studying the legal profession and how to improve it for decades. Joan welcome to the show, I'm so happy to have you. Joan Williams: [00:01:19] I'm delighted to be here, thanks for inviting me. Jeena Cho: [00:01:22] So can you give us a quick 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do? Joan Williams: [00:01:29] I've been a law professor for a very long time, and I've been studying gender for a very long time. I started out studying work-family issues, and now my chief focus is on gender and race in the workplace, and how they play out in subtle ways. Which is why we're excited about our new "Bias at Work" survey that allows people to go in and answer a few questions, and get a quick readout of what kind of bias climate they are reporting at work. Jeena Cho: [00:02:00] And what have you been finding, in terms of bias at work so far? Joan Williams: [00:02:05] Well, the "Bias at Work" survey is part of a larger survey that we've used on that, to assess the bias climate first in engineering, and more recently in the legal profession. I co-wrote a study for the ABA Commission on Women in the Minority Corporate Counsel Association, where we gave the larger survey to a national sample of lawyers, and we're just about to come out with the results. Bottom line is, there's a lot of implicit bias going around. Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] To start off, I think that term implicit bias gets kind of tossed around a lot. What do you mean when you say implicit bias? Joan Williams: [00:02:50] There is really just a lot of gender and racial bias, in addition to bias based on other personal characteristics. Implicit bias is a technical term that I use because most people know it. It implies that the bias that's going around is unconscious and subtle, and I think actually that's quite misleading. I think a lot of it is pretty blatant, and I frankly don't think it's that important whether the person who's engaged in biased behavior chooses to bring that to their consciousness or not. I always say, if you're clueless whose fault is that? Jeena Cho: [00:03:32] What are some examples of how these implicit biases show up at work? Joan Williams: [00:03:38] Well there are four basic types. The first, I call "prove it again." And it's that some people find they need to prove themselves more so than their colleagues. And it's definitely triggered by race, it's triggered by gender, it's triggered by class origin in professions like the legal profession. People who were born in non-elite backgrounds have to prove themselves more than people from elite families. It's also triggered by disability, so that's proved again. The second is quite different, it's called "the tightrope." It stems from research on women that shows that a narrower range of behavior is accepted from women. So women often have to choose between being liked but not respected, or respected but not liked. And when they're assertive they're called aggressive, or worse. Anger is less accepted, self-promotion is less accepted from women than from men. And our research with things like the "Bias at Work" survey shows that a narrower range of behavior is accepted not only by gender, but also by race. So it affects people of color, men as well as women. For example, anger is less likely to be accepted in a professional workplace when it comes from an African-American. Jeena Cho: [00:05:19] Yeah. Joan Williams: [00:05:21] And the third pattern of bias is actually the strongest, it's called "the maternal wall"; its gender bias triggered by motherhood. It affects dads too, if they play an active role in family care. And then the final one is called "the tug of war," and that's when gender or racial bias turns into a conflict within those groups. Jeena Cho: [00:05:46] You know, these issues just seem so big. And so often people aren't aware of it, or you may not be aware that you're treating someone that's a woman or a person of color differently than you do someone who's a white male or looks like you. So how do we begin to become aware of it, and change these behaviors? Joan Williams: [00:06:14] Well actually people are in luck because they can go to our website, which is www.biasinterrupters.org, and we have a full set of open-sourced toolkits for interrupting bias based on a bias in performance evaluations, in hiring, in meetings, and in assignments. And just going to the website and using the tools for individuals will help give you a very abrupt (and we hope efficient) education on how these patterns of bias commonly play out in the legal profession, and how it interrupt it. Jeena Cho: [00:07:01] I love that, I love that there's a toolkit and people can just go there and look at it. I often feel like, especially being a woman of color and in the legal profession, I always felt like there was so much focus on changing me, or changing us and our behavior. I remember going to these workshops on how to handle interruptions, or how to handle when someone else claims your idea as their own. So how much of this work needs to be done by the people that these behavior's impact, so women and people of color, versus white males? Joan Williams: [00:07:49] Yeah. And I think it's important to point out that for some of these patterns, specifically proven again, white men from non-elite backgrounds may be having the same kinds of problems that women and people of color are having. [00:08:06] I mean we've been working on these problems and supposedly deeply caring about diversity in the legal profession for 20 or 30 years, and almost nothing has happened. When I gave my first program on women in the legal profession in 1997, 17% of a law firm's partners were women. Do you know what it is today, for equity partners? Jeena Cho: [00:08:33] Oh I look at the data, yeah. Joan Williams: [00:08:35] It's, oh my gosh. So what we've been doing hasn't been working, and that's chiefly because the chief tools have been diversity initiatives or women's initiatives. And as you point out, that's totally great if the problem is with the women and people of color, but typically that's not the problem. The problem is that these forms of bias have been constantly transmitted through an organization's basic business systems, which is why the other set of toolkits on that Bias Interrupters web page are tools for organizations, tweaks they can make to their hiring or performance evaluations, systems that will in an evidence-based, metrics-driven way, interrupt this constant transmission of bias through basic business systems and workplace interactions. Jeena Cho: [00:09:33] So for the listeners that are out there that are like, yeah maybe I have some biases and I want to figure out a way to interrupt it, can you give one or two concrete examples or suggestions on how they can change their behavior? Joan Williams: [00:09:54] I actually wrote a whole book on that with my daughter Rachel Dempsey, it's called "What Works for Women at Work." And what I did for that book is just went around to the savviest women I could find, recited the common patterns of gender bias, and said any of that sound familiar? 96% said yes. And what's worked for you? Then that's what works for women at work. And I'll give you some examples. You mentioned the stolen idea, when you mention an idea and someone else gets credit for it. Well the next time that happens, you can do several different things. One is you can just say really mildly or with humor, "So glad you liked that idea, here's the next step." Or you can work behind the scenes if, that happens persistently, and set up a little posse of people who either echo each other's ideas, making it clear who the idea came from. Or when someone steals an idea, they can say, "I'm so glad you like Jenna's idea. I think you've added something important Jim, here's the next step." So what we have and what we gathered in what works for women at work were a lot of low-risk strategies for interrupting bias (on your own or on behalf of others) without spending too much political capital. Jeena Cho: [00:11:32] Yeah, I love that suggestion. What can law firms or legal organizations do to stop these subtle or implicit biases from affecting their employees? Joan Williams: [00:11:44] Well lucky them, because within the month or very early next month will be released a new report that we did for the ABA Commission on Women and Minority Corporate Counsel Association. It's called "You Can't Stop What You Can't See," and it has not only the results of our national survey on racial and gender bias in the legal profession, but also a full set of open source toolkits specifically designed for law firm lawyers and in-house counsel. So they're going to have to toolkits very specifically designed for those environments that will allow them to find out if they have bias through the workplace experiences survey, and then interrupt the biases if they do. I'll give you an example on the issue of assignments, because that's been less talked about. In "What Works for Women at Work," my daughter Rachel Dempsey coined the term "the office housework," and that women do a lot more of the office housework than men. The undervalued work, the literal housework like planning parties, and administrative work like finding a time or place to meet. So one of the toolkits that we have is a toolkit that provides a protocol for an individual manager or department or a whole organization, to find out if there is a fair allocation of the glamour work on one hand, and the office housework on the other. And then to establish a very specific protocol for remedying both problems. If you have nothing but women doing the office housework, there's a protocol for spreading that around more evenly. And if you have nothing but a small group of white men getting the glamour work, there's a step-by-step protocol for remedying that problem. Jeena Cho: [00:13:56] Yeah, I love that. And I think that's something that happens all the time in offices. I remember being given instructions like, don't sit next to the food because you don't want to be responsible for serving the food, and all of these rules that you to keep in your head for just trying to navigate the law firm environment, so you don't end up as the office housewife. Joan Williams: [00:14:19] Yeah, and the bottom line is that takes up brain space, and it has the potential of undercutting women's credibility. Asian American women are under more pressure than any other group of women to behave in feminine ways, and face often more pushback if they don't. And the bottom line is that that shouldn't be your job, to constantly be heading off bias at the pass. That is really the organization's job, to put in systems that seamlessly interrupt those common patterns of bias. Jeena Cho: [00:14:58] Sometimes when I have these conversations I get pushback, and the pushback is why should we treat the women or the people of color special? Why do they get their own retreat, for example, at a law firm? Why do they get their own woman lawyer meetings or groups? And that's somehow biased against the white males. I'm curious what your response is to that? Joan Williams: [00:15:29] We are already treating the women and people of color differently. The nationwide study of engineers found that if you ask American engineers if they feel like they have to prove themselves more than their colleagues, it's true that 1/3 of white men say yes, but 2/3's of women and 2/3's of people of color say yes. So those women's and diversity initiatives are designed, at best, to help women and people of color navigate problems that they face, in that case twice as often as white men. Jeena Cho: [00:16:15] The other place where I often notice is very glaringly, because I spend so much time traveling around the country and speaking, is so many legal conferences. I can probably randomly pick any legal conference (unless it's being put on by a woman's organization or an Asian Bar Association or the Minority Bar Association) and there is not a whole lot of diversity in the pool of the speakers. And often when I point this out to the organizers and say, "Hey you have 80 speakers and you literally had six women and one person of color, me. That's a problem." They will come back and say something like, well we care about diversity but we're not going to sacrifice quality to have diversity, and we just picked the most qualified speaker. What's your response to that? Joan Williams: [00:17:16] You know, it kind of depends on the field. Some fields are very small and they have a certain demography. If that's true, then you should be thinking about what fields are represented at your conference. But most fields in the law are large and diverse, and probably what's happening is.. I remember going into the Dean when I was at Harvard Law School and asking why there was one woman on the faculty as a tenured woman. And he batted his eyelashes at me, bless his heart, and said there's none qualified. And I said, in the whole country? And he said no. So that is a failure of imagination and it's a failure of social networks. Because how do people put together conferences? They're putting them together under time pressure, they go through their networks, and the single strongest determinant of who is in your network is who's similar to you. So they need to either diversify their network, that would be a good idea, or make sure that the planning committee represents diversified networks by adding other people to the planning committee whose networks will help them tap the full pool of talent. Jeena Cho: [00:18:52] Yeah, and also the other thing I often notice is the planning committee will be let's say 10 people, 9 of them will be white males and they'll have one woman or one person of color, and they'll literally tell me, "Well she was responsible for finding us diverse speakers, and she didn't." And I always feel like no, it can't be up to one person within an organization or within a conference planning committee to fix your diversity problem. And I think so often that happens, like in law firms we have people that are Director of Diversity and Inclusion, and that person gets scapegoated if you fail on the diversity and inclusion front. Joan Williams: [00:19:34] That's not called caring about diversity, that's called not caring about diversity. One of the problems and reasons there's been so little progress is that again, the organizational response to the failure to retain and advance women and people of color often has been to hire somebody as a Diversity and Inclusion manager, and give them a budget for programming. Well the reason that women and people of color are falling out of the pipeline is because they have to prove themselves more than the white guys from elite backgrounds, a narrower range of behavior is accepted from the women and people of color, they're under a lot of pressure to play back office roles, they're not given equal access to the glamour work. For women, motherhood is often used as an excuse to sideline women, and the ideal worker still is designed around a man married to a homemaker. Those are not problems that you can solve by hiring a D&I manager and giving her a budget. That response is again showing that you don't care as an organization. Jeena Cho: [00:20:59] Hmm. You just made this point a little while ago, but we do tend to hang out and associate with people that are like us; I think that's sort of a human nature. So if you look around your network and your circle of friends and colleagues and you notice, they all look like me, they went to the same law school. If you're a white male, it's like oh yeah so many people that I work with are white males and they all went to the same law school that I went to. Thoughts or suggestions on how to expand your network? Even just opening your mind to different ideas. I think it's sometimes harder and uncomfortable to try to reach out and make connections. You know, how to be with that discomfort and start to make those positive changes in your life? Joan Williams: [00:21:58] I think it's particularly hard for women, I think it's particularly hard for Asian Americans. It's hard for women because the default model of friendship differs by gender. For women, the default model of friendship is to be a good friend you're very open, you have a deep emotional connection, you share troubles. The default model of friendships among the bros is that you have a broad network of relatively shallow ties, and the fact that you're going to help each other's careers is kind of a given. Whereas, if a woman tries to, for example, get business from a friend, it may be seen as, "Oh my gosh I thought we were talking about emotional issues and having an emotional connection." And that context, particularly for women in law firms who really have to take steps towards rainmaking, that is where the action is in almost all law firms. You need to establish what's called an entrepreneurial network. You need to understand that another genuine way of interacting with people, male as well as female, is to engage in what the guys do. Which is kind of a ritual exchange of favors, like I'll do you this professional good turn and you'll do me this professional good turn. That's not a bad model of friendship, it's just a different default model of friendship. So that's one of the things that women really have to understand. For Asian Americans, this can be particularly challenging because so many, at least from immigrant families, have been taught that the path to success is to keep your head down and just do awesome work. Jeena Cho: [00:23:58] Mmm hmm. Joan Williams: [00:23:59] And of course doing awesome work is a precondition, but it's not the whole schmiel. Because if you just keep your head down and do awesome work, the risk is that people are going to be very happy for you to work for clients so they can go out, get more clients, get the origination credit, and hand the work over to you, who now will have to even work harder because you're not getting any origination credit. I remember that my institute, the Center for WorkLife Law, was doing an analysis of performance evaluations of a large and major law firm. And again and again and again and again, it was so blatant; the Asian Americans were being slated into back-office roles. And believe me, you may be doing important work, but if you're not doing the work that's valued at your organization, you're not going to be promoted and compensated in the top bronze. Jeena Cho: [00:25:12] Joan, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your time and your wisdom with us. Thank you so much. Joan Williams: [00:25:20] Thanks for the invitation, Jeena. Closing: [00:25:27] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Billie Tarascio on to talk about starting and operating a law firm that focuses on putting a wellness culture first. Billie is a family law attorney and the owner of Modern Law and Modern Law Practice, LLC in Phoenix, Arizona. Modern Law has been recognized as one of the fastest growing and culture-forward firms in the country through it's focus on employee wellness and whole health. She is a mother of four, a yoga and mind enthusiast, and the author of two books: Decode Your Divorce and Tiger Tactics: Powerful Tools for Successful Attorneys. Topics Covered Starting a small law practice: how she ended up starting her practice and tips/tools she used to navigate such a large life change. She also talks on how she got into family law. How her law firm is organized differently than a traditional firm and how she finds balance, skills she had to learn, and what she wishes she had known. She also talks on time management and how to intentionally carve out time to do the things that need to be done. How she decided to start her own practice, how she chose her practice area, and how although we are not taught to be business owners, it can be easier than you think if you go about it the right way. She talks on marketing, how she figures out what works for her and how law firms should approach marketing. The COBE set of standards that her law firm holds as their core values: Compassion, Optimism, Bravery, and Empathy. Learn more about Billie and Modern Law Practice at: Modern Law Twitter Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Billie Tarascio: [00:00:01] Marketing is about communicating what our clients need to know; to provide information and content that is most relevant to them, talking about broad spectrum problems and issues, and also being very real about who we are and what it is that we can offer and bring to the table. Intro: [00:00:23] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Billie Tarascio. She is a family law attorney and an owner of Modern Law and Modern Law Practice in Phoenix, Arizona. Modern Law has been recognized as one of the fastest growing and culture-forward firms in the country, through its focus on employee wellness and whole health. She is the mother of four, a yoga and wine enthusiast, and she's the author of two books: "Tiger Tactics: Powerful Tools for Successful Attorneys" and "Decode Your Divorce." [00:01:18] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6-minute guided meditation practice to work with loneliness. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Billie. Billie, welcome to the show. Billie Tarascio: [00:02:07] Thank you so much, glad to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:08] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Billie Tarascio: [00:02:16] Well, my name's Billie Tarascio. I'm an attorney, a mom, an entrepreneur, a business owner, and I love wine, yoga, and all things outdoors and travel. Jeena Cho: [00:02:30] Wonderful. So maybe we can go back a little bit, did you start your own law practice right out of law school? How did you end up starting this business? Billie Tarascio: [00:02:43] I knew really early on that I did want to own a law firm and start my own practice, and I knew I didn't really want a traditional career path. My oldest son was born my third year in law school, and I knew right away I didn't want to go into big law. So right away I sort of designed a career path that would allow me to learn as much as possible. And I worked for four or so firms as a contractor, different sizes and different types of individuals, and just started studying how they did what they did. Jeena Cho: [00:03:26] And how did you end up focusing on family law? Billie Tarascio: [00:03:31] I knew early on I wanted to do family law. I was probably impacted most by my parent's divorce; they went through a divorce when I was early in college and I knew I wanted to go to law school, and it just seemed like such a real law. Law that really had an impact on people's lives, and was less focused on technical terms and more focused on how do I solve problems and how do I really have an impact on people. Jeena Cho: [00:04:03] Yeah, I think that's the reason why a lot of people end up in their practice areas, because of personal experience. I have talked to criminal defense attorneys and they had some run-ins with the law that also inspired them to do their practice area. [00:04:17] So tell me more about Modern Law, how are you guys organized and how is it different than a traditional law firm? Billie Tarascio: [00:04:26] Sure. Modern Law is a family law firm in the greater Phoenix area, and I think it looks like most modern law firms; we have work-from-home policies, everything's cloud-based, it's very millennial-focused where I'm not asking you to check in a certain time. We work when we need to to get our jobs done, and there's a lot of freedom and a lot of autonomy. And at the same time, there's accountability and structure, meetings, communication, and collaboration. Jeena Cho: [00:05:05] Do you guys have a physical office that you come to, or are you guys completely virtual? Billie Tarascio: [00:05:11] No, we do we have two physical office spaces, but attendance in them is not required. Jeena Cho: [00:05:17] It's just so different than a traditional law firm. I think it's less true now, but I remember when I started practicing law back in 2003 or 2004, face time was very important. There was a lot of emphasis on spending as much time as you possibly can sitting behind your desk, because I don't know why. It was always drilled into me, you should just have like a lot of face time at the office. I remember being like, I don't have any work. Why do I need to be sitting behind my desk? That doesn't make any sense. Billie Tarascio: [00:05:50] No, it doesn't. And it's not that face time isn't important, but face time for the sake of face time is not important. Jeena Cho: [00:05:58] Yeah, great point. So I know you have this law practice, but you also have an interest in having a more balanced lifestyle, especially I would imagine with kids it's always a struggle. So how do you go about finding balance, and what does balance look like to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:06:20] Balance, for me, is spending time on things that are important and most valuable. And by constantly doing that analysis and determining what is the most important thing for me to be spending my time on right now, I find that I can do almost everything that I want to do. Jeena Cho: [00:06:45] What are the top three most important things, and how do you go about actually checking in to make sure that you're prioritizing those things? I think we all kind of intuitively think, I need to have a healthy diet, I need to get some exercise, I need to spend time with family and friends, and I also need to get work done. But just in terms of the day-to-day, "how to prioritize," I think oftentimes we tend to do the thing that feels most pressing and important, rather than taking a step back and saying, "Okay these are my priorities, and how do I actually carve out time?" Because I think things like spending time with friends and family can often go by the wayside. Billie Tarascio: [00:07:30] Right, I completely agree. What happens to me, and probably a lot of people, is things just creep up and we can feel ourselves approaching burn out. We can feel anxiety growing or we're not sleeping, our body is giving us indications that things are out of balance. Sometimes it takes a while before we're like, oh my gosh I'm miserable. And I think we all go through it, but I think it's a great time to say let's take a step back, let's look at all of my tasks, all of my priorities, and reassess and make changes. Because we're not slaves to our circumstances at the moment; we have the ability to make changes, to change priorities, to delegate different tasks, and to be living the life we want to live. It just takes a lot of effort. Jeena Cho: [00:08:34] Yeah. What tools or suggestions do you have for lawyers out there for gaining clarity on those things that are important to you, and also actually intentionally carving out time on a regular basis for including those in your schedule? Billie Tarascio: [00:08:55] Two amazing questions. Let's start with the second one, how do we make sure that we can take the time to do the things we know we need to do, but they're hard to get done? And I think that that all comes down to routine. At Modern Law we close early on Friday's and we bring in a yoga instructor, so that at least every Friday we've got time set aside for physical activity and mental wellness and checking in. I find it really hard to spend as much time doing physical activity as I wish I could. I don't have a great routine for that; it's pretty easy to do on the weekends, it pretty easy to do on Friday afternoon when we close early, but it's challenging to do during the week. And it's challenging to do when I'm traveling, which I've ended up doing more and more. So if you have any tips, I would love to know how to work that in. Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] Yeah, so once a week on Sunday's I look at my week and just see what's in my calendar. And I'm all about scheduling things, so I will regularly put 15-minute breaks in my calendar. Because you know how it goes, if you just allow things to end up on your calendar you'll just devote all of your time to everyone else, and then not yourself. I also like to sign up for things where there is no refund; my local yoga studio, you have to sign up in advance and I hate losing money, so I'll sign up for 2 yoga classes and I just feel terrible if I don't go, so I make myself go. I also try to spend as much time as I possibly can on the weekends outdoors, I think having that connection to nature is so healing. I also have the best insights when I'm out and about and just walking around. I will also schedule personal retreats, I usually try to take a week a couple times a year where it's just.. it's not really a vacation because I feel like when you go on vacation there's a lot of stuff that you do on vacation. But I'll find a little cabin out in the woods somewhere with no internet and bring good reading materials, and just spend a lot of time outdoors. But I think also finding something that works for you is really important. I know for some people it's playing a musical instrument or painting; I think there are just different things that we all need to do to nourish ourselves, and that's such a challenge. It's a struggle for me, and I have yet to meet someone that's like, I've got this wellness thing all figured out. I think it's always a challenge and a struggle. [00:11:55] So one of the things they don't teach you in law school is how to be an entrepreneur, and I certainly found that to be a challenge when I started my own law practice; no one taught me how to do accounting, how to manage a trust account, or how to do marketing. What tips or suggestions do you have for lawyers out there that are thinking about starting their own practice? Billie Tarascio: [00:12:24] Well I'm glad that we're talking about this, because it's something that I'm hugely passionate about. You gave a couple of examples, how to do a trust account, how to do accounting, or how to do marketing. And no, we are not taught how to be business owners, but you can go learn something like accounting or trust accounting; there are directions and rules. But most of law practice there isn't; there is no guidebook, there isn't a standard model that works. When we talk to our mentors who are 30 years older than us, they were living under a different set of conditions and completely different rules for how to practice and how to make practicing work. I happen to just really like this stuff. so I've spent the last 10 years in my law firm experimenting with how we do consultations, how long should intake take, what are the conversion rates from the number of people who contact us to schedule to show up? What is the right AR ratio? All these little, nuanced details of practicing. A projection that I'm working on now in my practice is taking these best practices that I've been able to create, predictability and security in my firm, and plugging them into other law firms to say, does this work across the board? Not every lawyer wants to be an entrepreneur; some lawyers don't want to work for a firm that is outdated and works poorly, but they also don't want to spend the time to figure out everything from scratch. Jeena Cho: [00:14:22] So I guess for the lawyers out there that are like, I want to start my own practice but don't really like the idea of marketing.. and I think also sometimes lawyers have a misunderstanding about what marketing is. They think I don't want my face on a billboard, or they think about doing marketing in a way that doesn't align with who they are. So I'm curious, when you're doing marketing how do you think about doing it and go about figuring out what's going to work for you? Billie Tarascio: [00:15:00] So, we have marketing philosophies that are pretty ingrained, and that's that marketing is about communicating what our clients need to know; to provide information and content that is most relevant to them, talking about broad spectrum problems and issues, and also being very real about who we are and what it is that we can offer and bring to the table. Jeena Cho: [00:15:35] How is your law firm different than other family law firms? When you're doing your 30-second pitch about who you are and what you do, what makes you unique and different? Billie Tarascio: [00:15:52] It all comes down to our values. And it took several years to really uncover these values, but once we did (and it's not that we chose them, it's that we dug down to find them, because they were always there) and they are: whole health, growth, and this acronym called "C.O.B.E.", which stands for compassion, optimism, bravery, and empathy. So we've taken these values and we've written out, what does this really mean? Both internally in how we treat one another, and externally in how we treat our clients. These values are our Constitution, so we are committed to the whole health of our clients. Which means we will not take actions in their divorce that will hurt them or their families long-term. It's not an option. So if you ask us to do something that is outside of our values, then we're not going to do it and you're probably not a good fit for the law firm. So really knowing who we were and communicating to our potential clients who would be a good fit has made all the difference in attracting the right clients, and being able to differentiate us from the lot. Jeena Cho: [00:17:05] Oh, I love that. So let's go through COBE. The first one, compassion; I talk a lot about compassion with lawyers, and usually I get the rolling of the eyes or I can sense the collective cringe in the room. So when you say compassion, what does that mean to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:17:26] It means understanding that even though I've been practicing divorce since 2005, the person sitting across from me is going through this for the first time. So even though I may feel like this doesn't matter or this is routine, it is not routine for them, and the things we take for granted are not things that they may know. And we're going to intentionally set aside our baggage to be present for them, and compassionate for where they're at. Jeena Cho: [00:18:00] So it doesn't mean that you're going to concede to what the other party wants always, or always show up chipper and happy, or you are going to get along with everyone, which is some of the feedback that I get whenever I talk about compression. They're like oh Jeena, I know you live out in California and you do the compassion stuff. And I think the point you made about the things that are important to our clients that we may not even think about is so true. I do bankruptcy law and I'm often surprised that know clients will have these huge concerns about losing their dog or their mother's necklace that they got when their mom passed away. And I'm usually like no you can keep your dog, but I think sometimes we need to pause and dig a little bit and say, tell me about the significance of that. Because I think we can actually end up getting a lot of information and also gain a better understanding of where our clients are coming from. Billie Tarascio: [00:19:06] Right, yeah. So compassion is probably also like curiosity; be there, get to know these people on a human level, and be willing to meet them there on a human level, and then you'll get loyalty and happy clients who are happy to pay their bill. Jeena Cho: [00:19:23] All right, so let's do the O: what does it stand for, and what does it mean to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:19:30] It's optimism, and it means that it can be very easy to get discouraged or to say it's never going to work, what you're asking we're never going to be able to get, and we're not going to practice law that way. Be creative, and being creative and optimistic means we will think about this for a while. If you have something that's really important to you that normally a judge doesn't care about, it does mean we can't get it, it means we need to be a little bit creative and figure out how can we make that happen for this client. Jeena Cho: [00:20:08] How do you maintain optimism in a practice area.. I think in law practice in general, there is a struggle for keeping up your optimism. What do you do on a daily basis to restore and recharge your optimism? Billie Tarascio: [00:20:28] Well, we try to hire people who tend to be naturally optimistic. It's a whole lot easier to be optimistic if that's just how you look at life. And the internal dynamics really, really affect the way each of us feels when we come to work. But also, we read things like Crucial Conversations and we take time to invest in one another and our clients. We celebrate all of our wins, so any good client feedback that we get goes out to everyone. I think that really helps encourage optimism and help people understand wins. So we celebrate every court win, every client win, all the good feedback, and just try to put positivity into our working measurement. Jeena Cho: [00:21:16] I love it. And the B? Billie Tarascio: [00:21:18] B is bravery, and it's sort of related to optimism. It means that we're not going to get discouraged; it's very easy to get discouraged, but we're willing to take risks on our client's behalf. And it kind of comes along with the creativity and optimism. We're going to take on tough cases, we're going to make bold arguments, and we're going to really go to bat for our clients and hope for the best outcome - even if it means the judge may say no. Jeena Cho: [00:21:48] Right. And I think so often the clients really appreciate you going to bat for them, even if they don't get the outcome that they want. They just appreciate having an advocate that stood up for them and fought for what they wanted, or what they thought was just. And I think as lawyers we tend to put so much emphasis on the winning part and getting the client what they want, which of course is important; I'm not dismissing that at all. But I think we often underestimate how important it is for our clients that we tried; we showed up and did our thing, and tried our best. Billie Tarascio: [00:22:25] Right, right. And as lawyers, we win. We are people who like to be successful, so we may have a tendency to aim lower than we could because we don't want to fail. And that's not in our client's best interests; in our client's best interest is our ability to look outside of ourselves and be brave. Jeena Cho: [00:22:50] Yeah, totally. Alright, and finally last but not least, the Y. Billie Tarascio: [00:22:56] Empathy, it's actually an E. It's empathy. Jeena Cho: [00:22:59] Oh okay, got it. Billie Tarascio: [00:23:01] COBE's a made-up word, obviously. And empathy is kind-of related to that compassion piece, of really being able to see each person's perspective. It doesn't mean we agree with them, and it doesn't mean that we cave to them, but it really allows us to understand where are they coming from and why are they saying the things that they're saying. And this allows us to communicate better to every single person we come into contact with; having empathy for the opposing counsel or for the judge, or for the mediator who's in a bad mood. All of those things help us get better outcomes for our client. Jeena Cho: [00:23:39] I'm curious, in your mind what's the difference between compassion and empathy? Billie Tarascio: [00:23:47] That's a good question, I almost feel like I need to pull up the long, written descriptions. I don't know, what do you think is the difference between compassion and empathy? Jeena Cho: [00:24:12] This totally isn't something that I came up with, it's something that I learned in a book.. I wish I can credit the source, but compassion is when you walk alongside someone that is going through a difficult time or suffering. So you're their ally, you're there for support. Versus empathy, which is where you literally put yourself in the shoes of someone else. So you are feeling with them, which can take a toll on you. So you want to be careful of how much empathy you put out there, because that can lead to burnout. When you over-identify with what the client is going through and imagine yourself in their situation or their scenario, which can be really hard. Versus compassion, where you have some distance from what they're going through. Billie Tarascio: [00:25:10] Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it's something that comes up with new family law attorneys all the time. We have to understand our role as attorneys, and our role as an attorney is limited in their life. They've got their whole life story, so compassion does really seem to be the more appropriate role for an attorney. Like I want to understand you, but your life and your problems, we're not going to take them home; we're not going to take responsibility for them. Jeena Cho: [00:25:39] Right, yeah totally. Billie, for the listeners out there that want to learn more about you and your law practice, where is the best place for them to do that? Billie Tarascio: [00:25:53] I am all over the place, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter. So if you just Google me, you'll get to me for sure. Or tweet @MyModernLaw, the website is www.mymoderlaw.com or www.mymodernlawpractice.com. Jeena Cho: [00:26:11] Great, you have such a great website so I encourage everyone to go check it out. And Billie, before I let you go one final question. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:26:25] That's a good question. Resilience I think is adaptability. And I heard recently something that I think is so important. Stress doesn't hurt us, it's our reaction to stress that hurts us. So our ability to take our stressful situation, pull out the positive, figure out the next direction, and do it quickly, and be forgiving ourselves, I think is the key to being resilient. Jeena Cho: [00:26:59] I love that. Billie, thank you so much for joining me today, I really appreciate you sharing your time and your wisdom with me. Billie Tarascio: [00:27:07] I appreciate being here, thank you so much Jeena. Closing: [00:27:12] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode I am excited to have Robyn Pollack on to talk about the implementation and practice of diversity and inclusion, and treating it not as something we have to correct or fix, but rather who we are and our daily mission. Robyn Pollack is CEO and Founder of Trellis Consulting LLC. A business strategist with an expertise in diversity and inclusion, Robyn increases financial return by teaching organizations to leverage their D&I initiatives more effectively. She was a restructuring lawyer for 20 years and addresses D&I issues through a distinct, business-oriented, strategic lens. She is also an adjunct professor at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, where she earned her J.D. Topics Covered Her background in law, why she left, and what her company does in terms of diversity and inclusion for law firms and other business. We also talk about women and risk-taking in law. Turning a passion into a profession - how she had been involved in D&I issues throughout her career, and it only made sense when she decided to focus on it full-time. D&I in the law - what has to change and how to get there. She talks about how her law school classes are very diverse, but how does that translate into practice. The importance of building cultures of trust, value, and respect - having authentic, transparent cultures. Learn more about Robyn at: Trellis Consulting LLC Twitter Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Are you going through a personal or professional transition? Considering a career change but aren't sure where or how to start? If you've been neglecting that inner voice nudging you to look at your life, to try something different, but aren't sure where or how to start, join Jeena Cho and Laura Mahr for a 1-hour free webinar. August 22, 2018 9:30 AM – 10:30 AM PT 11:30 AM – 12:30 PM CT 12:30 PM – 1:30 PM ET Register here: https://jeenacho.com/navigating/ Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Robyn Pollack: [00:00:05] Risk-taking is about taking courageous, brave chances that are calculated and not reckless, and figuring out how to make it happen. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm happy to have Robyn Pollack. She is the CEO and Founder of Trellis Consulting. She is a business strategist with an expertise in diversity and inclusion. Robyn increases financial return by teaching organizations to leverage their D&I initiatives more effectively. She was a restructuring lawyer for 20 years and addresses diversity and inclusion issues through a distinct, business-oriented, strategic lens. She is also an adjunct professor at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, where she earned her J.D. [00:01:15] Before we get into the interview, I want to tell you about my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should be practicing mindfulness and meditation, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have a little bit of time carved out for yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Try practicing mindfulness six minutes a day for 31 days and see for yourself the difference it can make in your life. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that here's Robyn. Robyn, welcome to the show. Robyn Pollack: [00:02:02] Hi Jeena, I am so excited to be here! Really honored to be taking part in this podcast with you, so thank you again for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:10] Give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Robyn Pollack: [00:02:14] So as you alluded to in the introduction, I am a business strategist with a focus in diversity and inclusion. So really what we do is we go into organizations, we do assessments and audits, we look under the hood to see what kinds of issues they're having or they may have, and then we take that data and we create customized, strategic business plans to solve their diversity and inclusion issues, and then we help them implement them. So really a big issue right now, I was a restructuring lawyer for 20 years as you said. So looking at diversity through a business lens, taking all of my experience and advising companies on financial and operational and legal and strategic issues, and utilizing that in the diversity space. So it's been a nice marriage of two areas of expertise for me. Jeena Cho: [00:03:13] So how did you go from being a practicing lawyer to saying, I'm going to open up my own consulting company? Robyn Pollack: [00:03:20] It's not as crazy.. well the jumping might be a little bit more risk-taking, but the journey itself isn't as crazy as it sounds. I was really involved in issues of gender diversity throughout my whole career, and I was very involved in a professional organization for restructuring professionals called the Turnaround Management Association. And as a young lawyer, I was asked to join the TMA; many people in my department were involved and said you've got to join, so I did. And my very first event was at the Union League in Philadelphia. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's very masculine, very male-dominated. In fact, for the bulk of it's history women weren't allowed in, so you can imagine what that looks like. They have huge portraits of men along the walls; huge, huge portraits, and their eyes sort of follow you as you walk down the hall. And I walked into this breakfast event and it was like the men in the portraits had jumped off the walls and were standing there in their dark suits, eating breakfast. So I felt very uncomfortable, very out of place, there was no one that looked like me. And after a couple of these experiences, I went to the president of our chapter and I said, "Do we have a women's networking group?" And he said no, I asked if I could start one, and he said yes. So I did. Fast forward all of these years later, this international professional organization now has a women's group in almost every chapter that it has. I also ran the Women's Leadership and Development Initiative at the global level for several years while I was still practicing, and it was through that that I really learned that women need the substantive tools to succeed in the workforce and that we really need to change the workplace so that they can succeed and that everybody can succeed. So I really had a passion and an interest in all things diversity and inclusion throughout my career, and was at a crossroads at the law firm: did I want to sit here for another 20 years, or did I want to do something else? And I decided to take that leap and start my own company. Jeena Cho: [00:05:41] What was the most challenging part of leaving law and starting your own consulting company? Robyn Pollack: [00:05:48] I think the collaboration aspect of it is something that I certainly miss. I worked in a very collaborative department, we were always running in and out of each other's offices and bouncing ideas off of each other. So when you leave a situation like that and you go out on your own (and I am you know a solopreneur) you miss that camaraderie and collaboration. And there are certainly times where I miss practicing, but I do integrate. I write my own contracts and I negotiate my own deals within my business, so I do get to utilize my legal skills. Jeena Cho: [00:06:34] I know you mentioned this already, that idea of risk-taking. What does that mean to you, and why is that so important for women in particular? Robyn Pollack: [00:06:44] You know it's interesting, being a woman and a lawyer I think it's a double-whammy. I think women are traditionally less risk-taking than men. And maybe it's more that we're more cautious; not that we don't take risks, but that we think them through and we don't act rashly. So I think it maybe gives the perception that we are not risk takers because we take our time when taking a risk. And then, of course, being a lawyer we are quintessentially not risk takers at all. So you sort of put those two elements together, and it's amazing anybody ever leaves. But I think that taking small steps and building on your successes.. and of course, I didn't just up and leave; I actually started my company while I was still at the law firm. I was trying to sort of ride that line and see if it was able to get any traction before taking that big leap, so I think that's one way to bridge the gap. But it takes a lot of bravery to take a risk, and I think that that's something that we all need to think about in our careers. Not that you have to do something as drastic as leaving, but what are the little risks that you can take every day in the law? How do you ask for stretch assignments, how do you position yourself for the next level, how do you make the ask? Those are things that women in law (particularly) need to think about as they move through their careers; if you don't ever take a risk, you're standing still. Jeena Cho: [00:08:26] Yeah, so true. And also, as lawyers, we're so risk-avoidant. So how do you get better at risk-taking, and do it in a way that isn't just reckless? Robyn Pollack: [00:08:41] That's a good question, and I think taking those small steps and testing the waters is one way to do it; you see that you can have success. It's really about building confidence, and also about having a plan. We talk about strategic plans with diversity, you really need a plan if you're going to take a risk. I mean, I didn't just wake up one day and say, hey I'm leaving my 20-year career to start this company. It was very well thought out, it was very methodical. I positioned myself in a way that I thought was the best way to position myself to make that transition. I also think starting it while I was still at the firm was part of that. Again, I wanted to see that there was some potential there before I made that leap. So I think having a plan, being agile, being able to shift the plan if things come along, all of that goes into good risk-taking. Jeena Cho: [00:09:50] So what did that planning process involve? So you're working at a firm, how did you even go about testing the water for your business idea? Robyn Pollack: [00:10:01] Well I started approaching people that I knew; I'd been doing a lot of speaking and programming through my work with the TMA. So that was a way to test the response I was getting, were people interested in this, was I providing value, was this going to be helpful? So that was one way that I was able to test the waters and see that there was a need for what I was doing. And then the planning process of thinking through how I was going to make that change; how was I actually going to implement that exit, how was that going to work? That was staying at the firm for a period of time, negotiating a period of transition where I was still there but I wasn't there as much. It was sort of a slow slide to make that change. Again, I didn't just wake up with no planning and say, I'm doing this. And of course, it involves talking to your family and other people that a change like this is going to impact. My son was about to start college, so it's like what kind of crazy person leaves their secure, big law job to start a company when their child's going to college? It sounded crazy to me as a person, as a lawyer, as all of the things that make me risk-averse. But I did it, I did it. I think risk-taking is about taking courageous, brave chances that are calculated and not reckless, and figuring out how to make it happen. Again if you never take that risk, if I never did that, I would have lost something; I would have been standing still. So it's worth it, I think sometimes no risk, no reward. Sometimes you've got to do that to move forward in your life. Jeena Cho: [00:11:58] Yeah. When you think about leaving law and doing something completely different, it can be really overwhelming to go from something that you know how to do really well into potentially an area that you're not as familiar with. Were there resources, whether people you worked with, coaches, or other people that you found to be helpful in helping you transition from being a lawyer to being a consultant? Robyn Pollack: [00:12:27] Yeah, I certainly have had people along the way. And I think what's interesting about the question you just asked is that you need people at different points for different things, and I think I've had those people. I have somebody that has advised me on marketing and social media. Again, not something that lawyers really focus on as much as they probably should, especially in a big law firm where they have their own marketing department. So I was always good at networking, but I had somebody actually help me with sales. How do you actually take somebody through a sales process, how do you close a sale? Very, very different than getting a client in a law firm. So I think those people have been helpful to me. I do have a business mentor; somebody who's very successful, has a great leadership development company, a New York Times bestseller, she's a rock star and has been a great champion and a real resource to me. So yes, I definitely need those people along the way. And again like any mentor, you have several of them and you have different mentors for different purposes along that trajectory, as you learn and as you move forward. Jeena Cho: [00:13:56] So switching gears just a little bit and moving into talking about diversity and inclusion, I remember when I graduated from law school in 2003 (it was a little while ago) we actually had slightly more women than men in our graduating class, we had a fair amount of people of color in our class too. And it just seems like this promise of having a more equal and inclusive legal profession has been talked about, yet when we look at the numbers they just aren't translating. And I don't know how you feel about it, but sometimes it feels tiring to even talk about D&I. And it always feels like it gets talked about in a vacuum. Like there's the firm and what the firm does, and then there's this little piece that's D&I, and we make sure that the D&I people do what they do so it looks good on some article or on some journal somewhere. Robyn Pollack: [00:15:08] I totally hear you, and it's interesting because I teach at a law school and my classes are very diverse. And it's surprising to me how that doesn't get reflected in law firms, I don't know where people are necessarily going. Particularly people of color. I remember at my firm, we didn't have many people of color. Certainly, at the younger associate levels, there are more women than as you move up through the pipeline. But yeah, it surprises me when I walk into my class every year how diverse it is, and I'm wondering what is going on when it gets to the law firm level. Jeena Cho: [00:15:55] So what is going on? Robyn Pollack: [00:15:57] I think there's a couple of things. One thing is that activities do not equal strategy, and I think that is a point that is lost in law firms, and quite frankly in other companies and organizations. People think that they can run around and do a lot of stuff and that they're going to see results, and that's simply not true. That is not the way to do it. The only way diversity and inclusion works is to take that strategic approach like you would when you're rolling out a technology initiative or a marketing initiative or a safety initiative. You've really got to look at, what are the issues you're trying to solve, and how do we put together an actual, implementable, measurable, data-driven plan to solve those issues? [00:17:05] A lot of times firms are just throwing stuff against the wall and they don't know why they're doing it; there is no measurable results, it's not tied to the overarching goals or objectives of the firm. All of the things that firms are doing for diversity should be tied to attraction, retention, evaluation, promotion, compensation, and leveling that playing field for everybody. I also think part of that is a circular issue, in that women, attorneys of color and other diverse attorneys don't see enough role models in leadership. Because they're not strategically helping people get up the pipeline, there's nobody there for people to look at. And I think particularly for younger lawyers, especially women looking at the women that have "made it," they look at those women and think, I don't want to do it this way. If this is what I have to do to get there, then this isn't for me. I see that a lot, when firms put their top women equity partners on a panel and they talk about how they got there, I've seen younger associates sitting in the audience saying, "Oh my god is this my future?! This is not how I want to do it." And that creates issues too. So I think the law firm model has to change, I think law firms need to really embrace the importance of diversity and inclusion, and really appreciate what diversity does for them. It's not just a "check the box," it creates innovation, better problem-solving, better teams. I mean this is what lawyers do, right? We solve problems. If you have diversity of thought and experience and perspective on those legal teams, you are going to be creating much better results for your clients. Jeena Cho: [00:19:07] And also, I think it's particularly hard in the legal industry because we don't like change and we like to go by precedent. So even things like the number of hours you're expected to be physically in the office versus being able to work remotely, I think the old guard is like no, I made partner doing it this way, and everybody else should do it this way too. Which just doesn't work for the non-white male lawyer, who lives in a traditional household where the wife either stays at home or works at a part-time job and she takes care of all the child-rearing responsibility, so on and so forth. And also as you mentioned, some people are like no, I don't want that model, that's not for me. And if you have enough younger attorneys rejecting the old model, then, of course, you're going to have the diversity issues. So how should the law firms be thinking about these issues? In terms of not only attracting new talent but also changing the structure of the firm so that it's more friendly towards women and people of color? Robyn Pollack: [00:20:22] Yeah. And just before I answer your question, I think that generational issue that you're talking about is really important, because I think there are a lot of younger, millennial, white male lawyers who don't want that life or those hours either. Irrespective of what their family situation or other situation is. When you're talking about work-life integration, there's so many components; people want to have lives, people want to go to yoga, people want to volunteer on political committees. People want to do all kinds of things to round out their lives, so I think the normalization of this work-life integration concept needs to cross gender lines and needs to be throughout firms. And also, that starts to take the stigma away from it looking like a "mommy track", or a traditional woman's role that she wants to work part-time or needs to be home by 5:00, or whatever it is. [00:21:25] To answer your question, the business world itself is changing. When people are retiring, it's Baby Boomers that are retiring. It's not millennials or Gen Z that are coming up, it's the older people. And so the newer, younger people that are coming into law firms are looking for something very different than what exists. And as you said, change is hard; change is hard for organizations, and really hard for firms because we are so risk-averse. We are trained to avoid risk and prevent risk, so that's where our mentality is. But I think the sooner that firms recognize that in order to be sustainable and to remain competitive, they've got to adopt a new mindset and shift the culture to be more amenable to what people coming into the workplace are looking for. I also think there needs to be an investment in lawyers throughout the lifecycle process. So mentor and sponsor programs, sponsorships particularly for women are incredibly important. But they need to be more formalized; there's a lot of mentor programs where the mentor and the mentee meet, they go to lunch, the mentor says how's it going, the mentee says okay great, and then they talk about something else. We need to have something a little bit more formalized; what are the obligations, what are the responsibilities? We need to be tracking people and looking at people at different stages through the employee lifecycle. Another thing that's really pertinent for firms is to look at their interview processes, to look at their evaluation processes, to look at their promotion and compensation processes. How do you strip bias from those processes? Because that's something that is especially important, even for law firms, because traditionally (with the law firm model) you are evaluated on your billable hours and your business development. Well, there is bias-inherent in that. So how do you look at other measures of value? How do you look at what somebody else is doing? How are you rewarding somebody for supporting a diverse lawyer? How do you integrate that into your employee lifecycle processes? I think that that's something that law firms need to look at and examine as part of the shift. Jeena Cho: [00:24:05] I think that kind of brings me to my last topic, which is building a different culture; building a culture where everyone can feel like they could be their true, authentic selves. Where they can bring their whole selves into the office. And I think that's just harder when you're working in a place where you're the only one (or perhaps a handful of people) that looks like you or share similar backgrounds and life experiences. So thoughts about building a more inclusive, or shifting the firm culture? Robyn Pollack: [00:24:37] Yeah, I think all of these things move in that direction. And I tell people that we work with that change takes time. It's like turning the Titanic around, again, law firms are at the top of that list for having trouble with change. I think shifting culture is primarily a top-down initiative, and then a bottom-up secondarily to that. So I think that if there is a visible commitment from firm leadership. And again it's not that check the box let's just throw it up against the wall. It is a rollout of a strategic plan and a strategic initiative. Look we've done this assessment, we've talked to you, we've interviewed you, we brought in a third party to figure out what's going on. And here's what we've identified, here are the priorities that we set, and here's what we're going to do about it over the next one year, three years, five years. And here's how we are going to accomplish a shift in making everybody here feel valued and trusted and respected and part of it. And everybody's part of the process, but I think that top-down, real willful commitment is where it needs to start. Because that's where culture is really set, from the top. [00:26:02] And then there are ways to really roll out organizational management and organizational change; how do you implement a change in an organization, and some of those methodologies need to be used in law firms. With the reminders about what we're doing and the constant weaving of diversity and inclusion and the kind of workplace we want throughout everything that we're doing so that it's not a second thought or it's not something we're trying to correct for or fix, it becomes who we are. Jeena Cho: [00:26:36] Right, it has to be more than the thing.. it often just feels like with a lot of law firms, you have a diversity and inclusion specialist or person in charge of managing it, and it almost feels like they say, "Well, we hired that person over there. She is supposed to fix all of our diversity and inclusion issues." It's like no, that's not exactly how it works. I've also been on planning committees and different things where they wanted me to be on the planning committee because I'm going to go and find some stickers that are non-white. And it's like no, sorry. Robyn Pollack: [00:27:22] Well it's true, and you can't just do one-off training. A lot of firms and companies think, well we brought this speaker in and she talked about unconscious bias, and okay we're good now; we've got unconscious bias covered. And that's simply not true; that's not how people learn. People learn over time, people learn experientially, people learn by doing. And you can't just have a one-off thing and expect everything to be fixed, and I think that's another shortfall in the diversity space. People think, oh yeah we had a program on that. Well, one program isn't enough. [00:28:06] I think that with some of the backlash you heard with Starbucks; they had this one program, but what does that do? Where do you go from there? So, you need something that's integrative, you need something that's consistent, you need something that is thoughtful and over time, in order to be effective. And we're not going to see those numbers change, going back to when you graduated law school so many years ago and it seemed like it should be fixed by now, and it isn't. It's because people aren't looking at it like a business imperative that needs a plan and a strategy, they're looking at it as, "Oh yeah, that person over there, she takes care of our diversity." But what does that mean? And nobody really knows. Jeena Cho: [00:28:50] Right. And also I think oftentimes for the white male managing partner, this is not a conversation that's easy for him to get involved in. I think there is some level of discomfort, or if he's sitting around the room and saying, "Well we have a diversity and inclusion issue," I think there may be raised eyebrows like, well what do you care? You're not part of that group. So thoughts about how people, let's say the white male lawyer that actually does have the power to change some of these issues, how they can be better allies? How can they get more involved in making these shifts? Robyn Pollack: [00:29:36] Yeah, I think they have to use that power; I think that's the first thing. I think one of the hurdles that we need to overcome is that stereotypical white, male, middle-aged managing partner who knows he needs to have a diversity initiative so that he can go on to on-campus recruiting and answer that question. But you've got to actually understand that while the status quo might be great for you, it's really not good for the long-term sustainability and health of that law firm. I think people in those positions of power need to think about what do you want your legacy to be? In terms of how do you want to impact the firm going forward because you've got the ability to do that. I also think that access to those leaders, we talked about sponsorship a little while ago, but having diverse attorneys to have access to more powerful male leaders in a firm, is huge. Those are the people that should be serving as mentors and sponsors to people because they are the ones that still have the power. So I think that's a great way for them to be allies; to actually take a couple of people under their wing and mentor and sponsor them. It makes a difference. When I look at many of the women that are successful lawyers, all of them will tell you that they had a man who helped them; a man who touted them in meetings when they weren't there, who made sure that they had exposure to clients, who made sure they had stretch assignments. So I think that's a really important way that quintessential white male partner to be an ally and to be able to help. And to understand. When we talk about unconscious bias and the things that hold diverse attorneys back, we really need to implement a "stop, drop, and roll" mechanism; we need to think about what it is that you are about to do or say. How is that going to be perceived by the person you're interacting with, and do you need to revise that? And revise what you are thinking, and say it or do it in a different way? You really have to think until it becomes more natural. So another to be a good ally. Jeena Cho: [00:32:17] I think that's a great place to wrap things up. Robyn, for the folks that are interested in learning more about your work, where is the best place for them to do that? Robyn Pollack: [00:32:28] You can certainly go to our website, which is www.trellisconsultingllc.com. So check us out, there's a place if you want further information to e-mail, and we're happy to talk. We're really looking to help firms and companies in this endeavor, that is our goal. We talk about being uncomfortable and having these difficult conversations, that's 100% true but that's how you make progress. And we're here to help facilitate those conversations and make the process of turning the Titanic around easier for people. We're very much about that culture shift, and truly believe that this is the future of firms and organizations, and really want to help push that forward. Jeena Cho: [00:33:23] Robyn, thank you so much for being with me today, I really appreciate it. Robyn Pollack: [00:33:27] Thank you so much for having me Jeena, it was a lot of fun. Closing: [00:33:34] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this bonus episode, I am excited to have Laura Mahr (The Resilient Lawyer episode 83) back on to talk about how to successfully transition, whether it be transitioning to another career from law, to a different field of law, or a personal transition. Are you going through a personal or professional transition? Considering a career change but aren't sure where or how to start? If you've been neglecting that inner voice nudging you to look at your life and to try something different but you aren't sure where or how to start, join Jeena Cho and Laura Mahr for a 1-hour free webinar. August 22, 2018 9:30 AM - 10:30 AM PT 11:30 AM - 12:30 PM CT 12:30 PM - 1:30 PM ET Register here: https://jeenacho.com/navigating/ For more information, visit: jeenacho.com
In this episode, I am excited to have Karen Fleshman on to talk about a different view of racism and the immediacy of the call to action she aims to instill in the future generations. Karen Fleshman is an attorney, activist, and a nationally recognized expert on racism, workplace fair practices, and police brutality. Her recent video plea to white women to stop calling cops on people of color went viral, with over 4.2 million views. In 2014 Karen founded Racy Conversations, a training company to inspire the first anti-racist generation in the United States. She facilitates workshops on racism, unconscious bias, microaggressions, sexual harassment, inclusive management practices, and raising anti-racist children. Topics Covered What inspired her to leave the law, and how she stumbled upon her current career of activism and inspiration. How anti-racism can be considered a mindfulness practice, and how she defines mindfulness and wellness as a communal environment. Why she is so focused on white women, and how sexism and racism are intertwined irrevocably in their fight for justice and equality. She even shares her thoughts on how white sexism has been used to propagate racism. How we fight against diversity apologists who "would hire more diversely, but can't lower our standards." We talk on how this mindset started, how it has been spread through white privilege, and how we can communicate and seek each other out more to show diversity in it's true form. Learn more about Karen at: Racy Conversations Twitter Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Karen Fleshman: [00:00:04] I think that's where we get confused about what racism is; racism is a system of privilege and wealth accumulation, it is not a personal fault. And I think that's where white people start to have the breakdown because they associate racism with a bad person. Intro: [00:00:25] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:46] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Karen Fleshman. She is an attorney, activist, and a nationally recognized expert on racism, workplace fair-practices, and police brutality. Her recent video plea to white women to stop calling cops on people of color went viral, with over 4.2 million views. In 2014 Karen founded Racy Conversations, a training company to inspire the first anti-racist generation in the United States. She facilitates workshops on racism, unconscious bias, micro-aggression, sexual harassment, inclusive management practices, and raising anti-racist children. [00:01:32] Before we get into the interview, I want to tell you about my new course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Try practicing mindfulness for just six minutes a day for 31 days and see for yourself the difference it can make in your life. Think about it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Karen. Karen, welcome to the show. Karen Fleshman: [00:02:15] Thank you so much, Jeena. I'm so excited to be here and to get to have a conversation with you. Jeena Cho: [00:02:21] Thank you. Before we get started, can you just give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do? Karen Fleshman: [00:02:28] Yes. So my mission is to inspire the first anti-racist generation in America. 43% of millennials are people of color, 47% of Generation Z are people of color. And I'm trying to inspire 10% of white people in those generations, as well as 10% of white women, to flip anti-racist so we can have a majority anti-racist generation that will transform our society for the betterment of all people. That may be more than 30 seconds. Jeena Cho: [00:03:03] Wow, I love your vision. When you say anti-racist, what does that mean? Karen Fleshman: [00:03:11] Anti-racist, I really got that language.. I'm very much influenced by Dr. Ibram Kendi, the author of "Stamped from the Beginning," and he defines racist thought as the belief that one group is inherently superior to other groups, and therefore are deserving of domination. And to be anti-racist means to not believe in the inherent superiority of any race, or believe that any one race should be dominant. And to actively engage to actually dismantle racism within oneself, within one's community, within one's sphere of influence. I'm really convinced if banning discrimination were enough, we wouldn't be where we are 50 years after a very successful movement that got our laws changed to ban discrimination. This has to be a grassroots, from the bottom up movement. And some people look at me like I'm crazy, but I do firmly believe that racism is not in the self-interest of the vast majority of white people. It is definitely in the self-interest of a tiny fraction of white people, and they have been able to convince the rest of us that it's in our self-interest too. But it's actually not, and I'm trying to help people to see that. Jeena Cho: [00:04:52] Say more about that, how is it that racism doesn't benefit the majority of whites? Karen Fleshman: [00:05:00] Well, we are a society in which 20% of the people control 95% of the wealth. And apparently that's not enough, they're trying to make it be 100%. Which I really don't understand, that just does not end well. [00:05:18] So you have many white people in the 80% of people in who are controlling 5% of the wealth, and they are somehow lulled to think that the 20% has their interests at heart by this notion of racial superiority. And that's been the whole history of racism in our society, is that it was created by a tiny group of white men as a means of wealth and power accumulation. And then they were able to persuade white people without power and wealth to be their enforcers of it, by persuading them that they were racially superior to other people. And then, of course, it makes sense to massacre and genocide Native Americans. And of course, it makes sense to enslave people from Africa and run around capturing them, bringing them back and torturing them, and doing all the horrible things that we've done. And I really do think this whole concept of white fragility is our post-traumatic response to all of the horrible things that our ancestors did and that we've never reconciled. We've never faced this history, we've never confronted its outcome and how it continues to impact us today. And I think that's why many, many white people experience a lot of trauma if you bring up the issue of race. Because I think we have very deep-seated fear and shame and guilt. Stemming from generations of trauma that we inflicted. Jeena Cho: [00:07:18] Yeah, I get the sense that when we talk about racism and the privilege that whites have, the pushback that I often get is something like, but I'm not racist; I'm not doing anything to contribute. I have black friends. So when we're having this conversation, what is it that you're trying to get people to do or see or think about in a different way? Karen Fleshman: [00:07:58] Well I think almost all white people in our country grow up learning what racism is from our white parents. And I don't think it's intentional on their part, they just literally did not know what they were doing. So I grew up with learning racism is terrible, Dr. Martin Luther King is wonderful, and the way to be not racist is to be colorblind and to treat everybody equally. But I grew up in an all-white community, so I never saw my parents interact with people of color. It wasn't intentional on their part, we just literally did not know any. [00:08:49] As I grew older and started to notice, well why is there so much racial inequality in our society? The story I got back was we used to have terrible racism in our society, but then there was the civil rights movement led by Dr. King, who is wonderful. And now opportunities are distributed equally. And some families, like ours, choose to work really hard, and that's why we're in our situation. And other families choose not to, and that's why they're in their situation. And no recognition of all the racial wealth accumulation strategies that my grandparents had access to that other families did not have access to. And it's undoubted, my grandparents, great-grandparents, they worked their tails off. They were farmers, they were the general contractors. But everything that they did, they had access to because they were white. And other families did not have access to that. And all of that magically lands on me, and I have no idea that racism played a role in that. And I'm sure probably they weren't racist either, I don't think they harbored.. I think that's where we get confused about what racism is. Racism is a system of privilege and wealth accumulation. It is not a personal fault. And I think that's where white people start to have the breakdown because they associate racism with being a bad person. And I am not a bad person; I'm an ethical person, I'm a kind person. I am all these things that are good, so therefore I can't possibly be racist without understanding. But when you exclusively associate with white Americans and maybe a few Asian Americans, and when you do all these different things. Who we who we believe when we serve on a jury, who we socialize with, where we send our kids to school, where we live, who we hire, who we promote, who we listen to. [00:11:11] Yes, you are racist; because you are perpetuating white supremacy in all those daily interactions, in all those little decisions that cumulate to the situation that we are now in. And I think that's where the breakdown occurs, is that they say, "I'm not racist," because they think that racism is to harbor ill-will toward black people. But we all have extremely deep-seated, unconscious bias that has been intentionally manipulated for us to fear black people. And if we don't recognize that and start to work on it, we just keep perpetuating it. I'm sorry, I'm going on and on. Jeena Cho: [00:12:06] Yeah, I am totally on board with you and everything that you're saying. And then my next question is so then, what? And I know you speak a lot to white women, and I want to get more into why it is that focus on that group. But let's say you're a white person and you're like okay I see what Karen is saying, that there is a system set up that is there to make things easier or make things more challenging, depending on the color of your skin. And I am part of that system, but I am just one person. How do I fix it, what do I do? Karen Fleshman: [00:12:50] Oh my God, I love that question. And I will say this, if you are a white person and you want to become a radicalized white supremacist, you have 18 bazillion, right? You've got your InfoWars, you got your Breitbart, you've got StormFront, all these places to go. But if you are that white person that's like, I think there might be something wrong, where do you go? I think this is a really bad problem. And what I would say to that person is that it's about mindfulness and changing your heart and your mind, the way that your mind works to come in alignment with each other. And then paying attention to these everyday interactions; things are happening all the time. And I think that because our brains are not designed to handle the way we are just bombarding them with so much information, like social media and online. We need to pause (I like your pause thing), take some time, pause, slow the heck down, spend some time in nature, get really quiet, and really start to think about why do I have these beliefs? Where did they originate, what kind of narrative about race did I grow up learning? And how am I demonstrating that in my daily interactions? And then start to change; start to intentionally seek out and develop relationships with the people against whom you're biased. [00:14:51] All the literature on unconscious bias says that the way to get rid of it is to start to supplant all those negative stereotypes with actual relationships with people that you know and care about. And then we're not dehumanizing people based on race, then we are re-humanizing them and we can start to recognize things. And in the building of those relationships, we also start to share social capital, which is a big part of this. Like if a white friend invites me to any kind of social event, their kid's birthday, a barbecue, a networking event, 9 times out of 10 90% of the people there are white, with maybe a few Asian Americans. If a woman of color invites me to a networking event, 9 times out of 10 I'm one of maybe 2 white women at the networking event. So we have to get to know each other because in these social settings is where we're exchanging all this social capital that is also really leading to the wealth inequality, right? How did you get your kid into that school? My company has an awesome opening I think you'd be perfect for. Oh, can you help my kid get an internship at your company? Whatever it is, that's where these things are happening. So if there are no people of color present, then we are perpetuating the racial wealth gap in these social settings. And then the next step beyond that of the building of the relationship is to really take a look at, you know people are like systemic racism, institutional racism, it's out of my hands. Bullshit, okay? Institutions and systems are created by people. [00:16:52] So look at whatever sphere of influence you have; it could be your kid's school, it could be your workplace, it could be your faith-based organization. Whatever it is, how does racial inequity show up in this organization and what am I going to do? Am I going to change where we're recruiting positions for, apply the Rooney Rule in recruiting? Whatever it is, each of us can do something that is going to move us toward racial equity. And that's how these systems are going to change. The people in power in these systems could not give a hoot, they have absolutely zero interest in changing them. I mean, I'm really so down on the whole Diversity and Inclusion profession. And I feel sorry for my friends, I have many, many friends who are heads of diversity for organizations. It's an extremely stressful and isolating job because, in the end, very few companies have any interest in actually changing this. It's going to take a groundswell of people saying no this is unacceptable and this has to change. Jeena Cho: [00:18:14] Yeah. And I often find that those people that are responsible or put in charge of diversity and inclusion get scapegoated. Because it's like, well yes it's true that all of our incoming group of new hires is white, but that woman of color over there was supposed to fix this whole diversity thing. So why isn't this happening? Karen Fleshman: [00:18:38] Yeah it's all her fault, right? Meanwhile, she's looking at them like, I told you what needs to change and y'all don't want to do anything. So don't scapegoat and isolate me. And that's why the role of the white ally in the workplace is so important because the poor woman of the color head of Diversity and Inclusion needs real supporters pushing for her to be listened to and for actual change to happen. [00:19:31] And you asked why do I focus so much on white women? It's many, many reasons; I do believe that white women are sexism's number one tool. Because white men use white women to maintain racism, and we cannot end sexism without ending racism. But no matter how many times black women have tried to tell us this, for centuries and centuries we're like, "Oh no no no, we must end sexism first." And we remain factionalized as women, and this is how sexism just keeps going and going and going. [00:20:23] That's part of it. I also think white women in the workplace can be very harmful to other white women; I've been harmed by white women in the workplace, as well as to women of color. They're not leveraging their positions of power within the workplace to open up opportunities for other women; they view other women as threats, and they don't ally with the women of color in the workplace. And this is why we don't ascend. We cannot ascend if we remain divided, we only ascend when we unite and when we have the numbers to actually transform this. So I firmly believe it is in white women's self-interest to get over our racism, unite with women and men of color, and really take on the inequality in the workplace. Jeena Cho: [00:21:23] I think how this normally shakes out though is you have a bunch of white males on a board or some executive committee and they're like oh, we need a little bit of diversity so we're going to open one seat up. So now you have all the people of color and all the women competing for that one seat. And when you get into that one seat, you don't want to be like hey can you pull up some extra chairs here? Because you don't want to be thrown out of the group. Because I think the perception is that then the other men in the room will say, we'd be happy to, you can surrender your seat. Karen Fleshman: [00:21:58] Right. And they intentionally seek out people with the Clarence Thomas viewpoint for that role. Like we just want you for the photo opportunity, but we don't really want you to change anything. And that's kind of an unfair characterization, there are plenty of people in that one seat who don't have the Clarence Thomas viewpoint. I agree with you, but people have to take some risk. We only have one life, are we going to allow this inequity to just keep going? Or do we actually care about our children? Do we actually care about this more than we care about our own narrow, short-term self-interest? And people have to take some risk and they have to make other people uncomfortable. All of this gets perpetuated because, well making so-and-so feel uncomfortable we're putting so-and-so on the spot. Who cares?! Go for it! You know what I mean? And if you wind up losing your job, I think you have a lot to be proud of. Look at the woman from Uber (whose name is eluding me) who memorialized all of the terrible things that were happening, and then found another job and went public with her memo. Look at all the change that has been spawned from that one blog post. Or look at Leslie Miley not signing the nondisclosure agreement about why he left Twitter, saying he mentioned in front of an all-hands engineering meeting, "What are we doing about diversity?" And the head of engineering turned to him and said, "Well diversity is important, but we're not going to lower the bar." [00:24:07] How much of an impact did his going public with that have? And it's not like these people are now destitute, because you become like a paragon. Look at Ellen Pao; you become a role model for other people. So I think those are the people that we need to highlight and uplift and support when they're going through this. I am friends with one of the plaintiffs in one of these horrible Silicon Valley sexual harassment cases, which we can get into another conversation about how it's Asian American women who are being targeted for the sexual harassment in Silicon Valley. [00:24:54] It is emotional to be a whistleblower; it is extremely difficult. So when women are bold enough to do these things, we need to be by their sides, holding their hands and supporting them in doing this, because it does take a lot of courage. But that's who makes change, the meek don't make change. The bold do. And I want to encourage everyone listening to this to be as bold as they can be. Jeena Cho: [00:25:28] I love that. I want to go back to something that you just said a moment ago because it comes up for me all the time; that idea of "we're not going to lower our standards." I cannot tell you the number of times I have heard this, because I will be at some conference somewhere and I'll see a sea of white male speakers, all the "manals." And I'll be like, hey you have a diversity and inclusion issue here. And they will say, well we wanted to have the best or most qualified speakers. And it drives me crazy, I mean it's frankly insulting. Like how dare you, how can you think that? But where does that idea come from, that we're only going to pick the best people, and the best people happen to be only white men? And also, how do you respond to that? Karen Fleshman: [00:26:29] Well you know, our society is very intentionally set up that way. You look at the Declaration of Independence where it says, "All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," then 30 lines below it it says, "The merciless Indian savages whose known rule of warfare is the destruction all ages, races, and sexes." So it's in the founding documents. Because when they were talking about all men, they were talking about white men who were landowners, and many of whom were slave owners. This is who the United States has always been designed to serve. I mean, look at the U.S. Senate. And I really do think that the rise of 45 is white men's freaking out about the demographic change. They're like, oh my god we are going to ban Muslims, we're going to build a wall, we're going to do everything in our power because our numbers are dwindling and we have to go into battle to preserve our power. [00:27:56] It's this zero-sum game notion of power where only we can have power, and if we were to share power with other people that would mean there's less power for us. So I think this whole, "these are the best people," is the grassroots manifestation of that and the accumulation of privilege and status conferred upon white men. Well, of course, they went to Stanford, and of course, their IPO was successful and now they're millionaires; all these things without any recognition of the fact that all of this success was totally weighted in their favor because of their status as white men, to begin with. [00:28:47] And this notion that everything they accumulated is to their own individual merit, and their own individual intelligence, to their own individual work. And this notion of rugged individualism is such an important narrative in American history, and it's completely inaccurate. But try convincing them of any of it. They literally don't see women and people of color as fully human; they don't see them as their equal. So it's very difficult for them to imagine that a woman of color or man of color has a viewpoint that could possibly be as intelligent or as insightful as they are because they don't see them as fully human. Jeena Cho: [00:29:40] Right. Or if they are going to choose someone that's a person of color or a woman, then the person has to be so incredibly exceptional. It's not enough that you went to Harvard and Yale, you must have clerked for a Supreme Court Justice. It's just all the nonsense, and it happens so often. And I always struggle with what do I say? What do I say that isn't going to make the person feel defensive? Karen Fleshman: [00:30:19] Listen, I just troll the hell out of it. I quote them, I make fun of them, and then at the end I write a blog post about it. Because honestly, I don't care about making them feel defensive. That's my style, other people have different styles, but I am so tired. And also quite honestly, these "manals" or the white woman equivalent, it's just boring. It's completely irrelevant. You're only talking to other people with your shared life experience, you know what I mean? There are no real learnings to be had there. So those are the types of things that I like to point out. [00:31:13] But if you look at some of my blog posts, I wrote one after going to a UCLA Anderson Women Lead conference about how you can't throw a women's empowerment event and only focus on white women. Especially if you're UCLA! But we're so in our little bubble that we don't recognize this until somebody points it out. My style of pointing it out is not very gentle, other people's is more gentle. I think we all have to do what works for us. Jeena Cho: [00:31:52] Yeah. For me, it's a constant trial and error. Sometimes I say, okay I am going to write an article about this conference where it's a sea of white men speakers; I'm going to write an article about you on Above the Law and call you out on your bullshit. And then they will issue a non-apology and basically, say, but we're not going to lower our standards. Karen Fleshman: [00:32:24] Oh yeah, that's what UCLA did. I started tweeting, it's noon and we haven't heard from a single woman of color at this conference, unacceptable. So then UCLA Anderson tweets back, oh my god you're 100% right. We should have a conversation about this. And then they never actually follow up to have a conversation. Again, they honestly don't give a hoot but they just don't want to publicly make it seem like they didn't acknowledge the criticism. So just keep at it Jeena, just keep at it. And you don't have to do it all the time either. Sometimes we're tired and we don't have to fight this battle every single day, you have to practice some self-care in there too. But when it does feel right and we're feeling bold, I say go for it. Jeena Cho: [00:33:20] Right. And also, I will say it's exhausting to be the woman of color in the room that's constantly the one that's pointing it out. I'll have other white friends tweet at me and say, oh look at this "manal", expecting me to do their job. And I'm like no, you call them out on their bullshit; that's not my job. But somehow they think that's now my job, to call out all the "manals." It's like no, you can also take part in this movement. Karen Fleshman: [00:33:49] Since they obviously only want to listen to white men, wouldn't it be more effective for a white man to call them out on it? Use our privilege, use our power; that is something that we can use. Sometimes I think I shouldn't comment on something because this is for a person of color to comment on - no it's not. Calling white people out on their bullshit is white people's 100% prerogative. Go for it. Jeena Cho: [00:34:33] Yeah. What I have heard, and I've had this conversation with several white men, is that they feel uncomfortable saying there are no women or there are no people of color sitting around the table. Because then the room, whoever's sitting around the room, is going to look at them and say, "Well what do you care? You have a seat." Karen Fleshman: [00:34:54] Well yeah, that's what this is all about; making people feel uncomfortable, including ourselves. When you start to go down this path it is not a path of comfort, because white people want nothing to do with you. And then a lot of people of color, because this is such a very sensitive, longstanding, painful thing. When white people start to engage in it, then you get a backlash from people of color too, who don't trust you or who don't think you're engaging in it in the right way. Which I totally welcome, but some white people are like, oh my god why did I do this? Now I've alienated both the white people and the people on whose behalf I was trying to be an advocate. My whole thing is, apologize if you've made a mistake. Take ownership of it, learn from it, but don't stop; just keep going. There are people of color who are always going to be offended, there were some people of color who were mad at the video plea I made for white women. They were saying it should have been done by a woman of color, you know why are you making this video? My whole thing is, just like everybody else, white people can't be who they don't see. So I'm going to keep raising my profile. We don't have a single example, there is not a white woman celebrity, executive elected official, we do not have a single example of a household name white woman who can be a role model of what it is to be an anti-racist white woman. And so I'm going to keep raising my profile because I want to encourage many, many people to come on this path. Is everything I'm doing 100% right? No. I'm a human being, I'm making mistakes left and right. But I want to encourage 10% of my white millennials, 10% of Generation Z, 10% of white women; if we can flip those people (and we have the numbers) we can actually have an anti-racist generation. And that's what's going to transform our society. That's what I'm trying to do, is build a movement that's big enough to have a transformative impact. Jeena Cho: [00:37:30] Powerful message. Karen, for the folks that are listening to the show and want to learn more about you and your work, where is the best place for them to do that? Karen Fleshman: [00:37:42] RacyConversations.com, there's a contact me form on there. I do workshops on unconscious bias, microaggression, sexual harassment. I'm an attorney admitted in New York, so I'm able to do California-compliant sexual harassment training. I love to work with a company to facilitate the creation of their harassment policy, and then train everybody up in the company. I also give talks and I host a lot of events around interracial sisterhood, and I'm super passionate about stopping Cavanaugh; I wish we had time to talk about that. Jeena Cho: [00:38:24] I might have to have you back to chat again now. Karen Fleshman: [00:38:27] Yes! If you are in a red state and you have a women's group, a young people, a group of people of color, I want to come to your state and talk to you about what we can and must do to stop the Cavanaugh appointment. It is the number one threat to every marginalized group in this society, we have to stop this appointment. So please contact me and I would love to meet you and to work with you. Jeena Cho: [00:38:58] Karen, thank you so much for being with me today. Karen Fleshman: [00:39:00] Oh my god, Jeena thank you. I'm delighted and I can't wait to hear this, I'm so excited to listen to it. Closing: [00:39:11] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Donna Branca on to talk about meditation and mindfulness in the legal profession. After 13 years spent at Blank Rome as their Director of Talent Management, Donna Branca left to further develop her leadership and coaching skills. Given her extensive experience in coaching and leadership, as well as her institutional knowledge of the firm, Donna returned to Blank Rome four and a half later as the Director of Strategic Leadership. She works to help the firm leadership, partners, and associates be the best they can be. Topics Covered Her introduction to mindfulness; how it became an instrumental part of her healing through a turbulent period, and how she utilizes it in her training at the firm. Acute stress (fight or flight) vs. chronic stress, and why it can be important to distinguish for mental well-being. The practice of meditation and the importance of seeing it as a journey rather than something to be conquered. The impact of mindfulness on one's overall success, and mindfulness in the legal profession. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Donna Branca: [00:00:00] We can either be in the river and getting banged around by the rocks and the currents and the everything, and if we can get to the side and climb out we might be beaten up and wet, but we can look at the river. To me, that's what we're doing when we're practicing. It's all still there, but we're seeing it with some clarity. Intro: [00:00:25] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:47] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Donna Blanca. She has spent 13 years at Blank Rome as their Director of Talent Development. Donna left to further develop her leadership and coaching skills. Given her extensive experience in coaching and leadership, as well as her institutional knowledge of the firm, Donna returned to Blank Rome four and a half years later as the Director of Strategic Leadership. She works to help firm leaders, partners, and associates be the best that they can be. [00:01:21] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode please go check it out. I shared a six-minute guided meditation practice to work with loneliness, which I wrote about on the ABA Journal this month. So often even though we can work with others in our firm, we can have that sense of isolation and loneliness. And I found that having a regular meditation and mindfulness practice helps me to be more aware. You can learn more about Mindful Pause and the six-minute program over at JeenaCho.com, or you can also check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Donna. Donna welcome to the show. Donna Branca: [00:02:00] Thank you. Thank you Jeena, appreciate it. Jeena Cho: [00:02:03] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Donna Branca: [00:02:09] Well you gave a nice introduction there. It's my pleasure to be back at the firm, having spent a great part of my career here. But I'm now in a different function and at Blank Rome building a coaching culture. We do that both to help from a leadership perspective as well as a business development perspective. So in my space, it's pretty much on the leadership side. So I work with senior leaders, but I also work with any number of our partners and associates, and I do training and coaching and one-on-one coaching, some group coaching, and then a smattering of some other things that involve leadership. So it's been great to be back, and it just seems like a good fit. Jeena Cho: [00:02:59] I know that you have a personal mindfulness practice, and I'm curious to hear how you got into practicing mindfulness and what that practice looks like for you now? Donna Branca: [00:04:19] Yeah, I've been meditating now for about 12 years. And I actually was at the firm, part one at Blank Rome; and I had some things going on, and it's actually also how I was introduced to coaching. I retained a coach for myself and we were working through some career goals, that sort of thing. And one thing led to the other and the coach actually asked me if I knew anything about mindfulness, she had just taken a course at the University of Pennsylvania. So I had zero introduction to mindfulness until then. And I was a little skeptical, but I'm curious by nature so I researched it and ultimately signed up for it, in part because I thought it might help the lawyers that I worked with. So I registered for that course, and somewhat ironically instead of starting that course the same day at the University of Pennsylvania, I woke up at the University of Pennsylvania Hospital with a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. [00:05:06] So I didn't actually get there for that course, I remember in my fog at the time saying to my husband I think you better wheel me over to that mindfulness class because I think I'm going to need it. And frankly, it became a big part of my healing and it became a big part of my life since that time. So that's pretty much how I got introduced to it. [00:05:22] I should add that I did get back to the program about a year later, and it was remarkably powerful. I found myself saying at the end of the program, my teacher Michael Baime went around the room to say what did you get from this eight-week program? And I went first, having no idea what would come out of my mouth. And what I found myself saying was that it was remarkable how I felt like I had shifted my perspective and been able to pull myself away from the thought that were yanking me around, and that frankly if I found that my diagnosis had gotten worse and that I was even looking at dying that I found a tool that would help me do that. And that was a big "aha"; I didn't realize that that was going to come out of my mouth. But it's very true, that's how profound an effect it had on me. And about nine or ten months later I did a program for them with just cancer patients, because the Abramson Cancer Center was thinking of picking up the funding for it. And that's where it really locked in for me, going through a program with people who had not been introduced to mindfulness before and were at.. we talk about ruminating about the past and worrying about the future. There's no time more than when you have a life-threatening diagnosis. And watching what it meant to these people, it really locked it into me, as to how important this can be at any point in your life. But like I said, that locked it in for me; from the standpoint of how important it was to me, and to some extent a passion and to be able to introduce other people to it when they're ready. Jeena Cho: [00:06:57] Can you say more about how mindfulness practice helped you to recover? Not necessarily recover, but how it helped you through that journey through having cancer? Because obviously there's just so much uncertainty and fear, and all of the other emotions that I would imagine would come along with having that diagnosis and the treatment. But how did it help you in the day-to-day of your illness? Donna Branca: [00:07:29] So by the time I got to it, I was post-chemo. I really wish I had a mindfulness practice before I got to that point, but where it helped me (since I was post-chemo) was in that limbo stage that you go into; where you're not treating, you're not going through an active regimen of something, and you're just waiting. And where your mind can go with that can be either dark, or you can pull yourself out of it and have it not be so dark. And be grateful for the fact that you did get the medical care that you had and whatnot, and you just vacillate back and forth. And it's as if your mind decides where it's going to go on a given day, and what the mindfulness allowed me to do was really understand how to zoom out and look at the situation and choose my response. And I try to do, the University of Pennsylvania and this program that I do host two retreats a year, I try to do at least one. And it was at a retreat where I found what I was doing, when I was able to actually look at my thoughts almost as a focus of my meditation. Which I hesitate to say to some people, because it doesn't always resonate. But it was a moment of clarity that has stuck with me. I would say that.. I'm sure you've seen this news of the kids that were in the cave in Thailand, and thinking about that really resonates with me. And to answer your question around how it helped me, I mean when you think about what they were up against and sitting in this horribly dark cave where you can't see your hand in front of your face literally, being together and learning how to get mindful in order to get through that is just astounding. [00:09:43] But to be honest Jeena, I feel and have always felt that this is not something new that we're trying to learn; it's actually something we're trying to re-learn. You know when we look at babies and we look at children, they're much more mindful than we are. Jeena Cho: [00:10:04] Right, they're always in the present moment. Donna Branca: [00:10:06] Right. And at some point, we pull away from that. So it's kind of telling that these young men and children were able to get there somewhat quickly. And I don't know, I haven't talked to them obviously but that's what I'm making up about it; that that we are able to tap into what my experience has been around mindfulness, what I've watched plenty of other people's experience (I'm sure to some extent yours) has been around mindfulness. The diagnosis, the stress, the fear of what it means; I still get emotional seven years later. What it means to your family. Like right now, I cannot just pull myself out of it and get positive about it, but literally look at the thought and make a choice as to what road I'll go down. [00:11:13] So really, I have such gratitude towards this work. I actually have a lot of gratitude towards the work you do, that's how important I think this is. So I hope I answered your question, about how it helped me get through that. And frankly it's still a journey, once you have a diagnosis like that. I mean I'm very grateful, I have a fairly good bill of health. The doctor says something else is more likely to kill me than my ovarian cancer, but when you face death that way and your own mortality, it shifts thing quite a bit. So I count on my practice to help me in all sorts of things. Jeena Cho: [00:12:01] I remember when I went through the 8 week mindfulness MBSR class for the first time, I was so struck by the range of human experience that were present in the room. There were first year (I took it at Stanford) undergrad Stanford kids and they're like, oh I don't know what I should do when I grow up and I just feel so anxious all the time. To people that were caregivers to loved ones that were dying, we also had people that had terminal illnesses. It was just the whole range, and I think that class is so impactful because it pulls you out of your own experience and you start to see human suffering happens to everyone. It just gave me such an appreciation and that ability to be a little bit softer. I think as lawyers we're so used to striving and forcing our way through things, and it makes you think no. Sometimes I guess there's a place for it, but oftentimes all it does is just aggravate the situation. To back up a little bit, can you talk a little bit about the difference between acute stress and chronic stress? Donna Branca: [00:13:27] Absolutely, and I just actually did a program yesterday for our summer associates. So if we think about the predator jumping out in front of us ready to eat us, our stress response is involuntary; it just kicks in. And our essential systems, our non-essential systems shut down. Take it back to high school, the whole stress response, right? We know this, but it serves to remind ourselves in this context. Where if we think of a predator jumping out and we hit fight or flight, and that trigger puts our system into this involuntary. Where our heart beats faster and our lungs beat faster in order for us to either fight this thing or get rid of it. At the same time, our non-essential systems shut down. So we don't need our digestion, we don't need reproduction, we don't need our immune system. We lose our ability to creatively problem-solve, because we don't have time for that in this situation. So all of that can be, once the predator is either gone or you've killed it, it automatically brings us back to homeostasis. So the relaxation response kicks in, but in chronic stress that's not happening. So if we're keeping ourselves in this constant state of chronic stress, then it does impact those non-essential systems that shut down. It does impacts digestion and reproduction and our immune system and our ability to creatively problem solve. So what we want to do there is to insert a relaxation response, in order to bring us back to homeostasis. And the relaxation response is both voluntary and involuntary, so we can actually do that. And to me, that's what mindfulness practice does. Being able to calm yourself and bring in the relaxation response, to me helps if you actually have a practice. So you are conditioned to do that, as opposed to trying to remember to settle and breathe at a time where you want to insert the relaxation response. Because when we are at chronic stress, it's hard to remember it. So that's why I think a regular practice helps me do that, and I've seen this work with people; it certainly has worked in my life. To insert something that brings me back to recovery, right? So chronic stress is really just that stress with the absence of recovery, and we can actually impact that. Jeena Cho: [00:16:14] Right. And so often we can keep that chronic stress going by re-remembering some triggering event. So you may have a hearing and the hearing didn't go your way, and rather than let it go and return your body back to homeostasis you just keep repeating the hearing over and over and over again in your head. You keep repeating what the judge said, what the opposing counsel said, and think about how unfair it was. You build up a whole narrative in your own mind, and then that just keeps your body in that elevated stress level. Donna Branca: [00:16:50] Absolutely. And we talk about how this trigger that might be a predator, this trigger can be a partner standing at your door or a law professor making a demand; it can also be an internal thought. This inner voice that we have can be a real trigger, like you just said. So we're just re-triggering and re-triggering and re-triggering when we are ruminating about that. So I couldn't agree more, I couldn't agree more. Jeena Cho: [00:17:23] Yeah, and so often our own mind is our worst enemy. I remember when I first started practicing mindfulness, I would sit to meditate (and I'd actually be curious to hear your thoughts on this) because that's what they tell you to do. Like okay, you want to let go of chronic stress and find these and find relaxations. So I would be sitting there and I'd be meditating, and I found it to be anything but relaxing. And I would just sit there the whole time (10 minutes) and I would have to force myself through it. And I was convinced that it was actually making me more anxious, that I couldn't find relaxation and ease. [00:18:03] So, have you noticed that in your own practice? And what do you say to the beginning meditators that's like no, when I sit down to meditate I actually notice more anxiety and more stress? Donna Branca: [00:18:21] Oh absolutely. I think it's a bit of a misnomer and it's unfortunate that people come into this believing that they can clear their minds, or that that's the goal. And to some extent, the opposite is true. That might be a lovely byproduct at some point of your practice, but that's not the goal. And what I tell people and what resonates with me, is what you're really doing is you're being completely with what is. And that includes your thoughts. And if you can sit and be with them, without adding more thought and just looking at them, knowing that they exist; the trick is not to add more thought. [00:19:02] And what I tell people is whatever you've decided the focus of your meditation, whether it's breathing, whether it's parts of the body, whether it's something else, that the practice is in when you've seen your mind go off. And then you say okay, not judgmentally, and you bring it back. It's in the bringing it back that's the bicep curl; it's not trying to clear your mind, it's noticing where it went and being a choice to bring it back. And it's making that choice that is building the muscle that's going to allow us to make that choice when we're really in the midst of something else. Jeena Cho: [00:19:45] Yeah, that's so true. Donna Branca: [00:19:46] There was one metaphor that my teacher used that resonated for me, which was: we can either be in the river and getting banged around by the rocks and the currents and the everything, and if we can get to the side and climb out.. we might be beaten up and wet, but we can look at the river. To me that's what we're doing when we're practicing. It's all still there, but we're seeing it with some clarity and we're just not getting re-attached to it. And to me it's just this slight separation. But at the end of the meditation, you can meditate for ten minutes and get up and say oh my gosh, I only remember one breathe. But to me, that's still.. they say (and I believe this) your meditation practice can't suck, if you just set the intention and you sit and you set the intention. [00:20:54] If you only get three conscious breaths, its still doing the work it needs to do. And not every practice is going to be like that, most aren't going to be like. But you have to be with the ones that are in order to really gain some confidence that that's true. Jeena Cho: [00:21:15] Yeah I always find it to be so interesting, often I'll have lawyers come up to me after a talk and they'll say, "You know I tried meditation once, and it just didn't work." And I'll say, well what does that mean it didn't work? And they'll literally say something like, well I downloaded one of those apps and I sat down and I did a meditation, and it just wasn't calming; I found it to be very stressful. And it's like, well if you buy a gym membership and you went once and afterward you're sore and you didn't have the perfect body (whatever you were expecting from going to the gym), you wouldn't say well that didn't work. It's a journey, it's a practice; it's a life-long practice. Donna Branca: [00:21:57] It is. And I think when we got started, we did do the eight-week program and the homework that we were supposed to do; the 45 minutes of meditation every day. And the science is now telling us that that's not necessary, and that it's more important to be consistent every day, rather than long sits now and then. And I don't know if you agree with that, but that's what I understand to be the case. But I do feel like I needed that; I needed that to jumpstart what I saw to be so true by the end of the eight weeks. I think that had I not done that, I would have been one of those people that I said yeah, I did the Headspace thing once and it didn't work. So that's for me. I also meet people that that's not true for; I meet people who are very self-taught. But again, it's usually someone who can be with how yucky it can be sometimes to sit, and still do it every day and set the intention. Whether it's five minutes, whether its 20 minutes, but I have met plenty of people who are self-taught that way. But it is a bit of a discipline, in my mind. Jeena Cho: [00:23:30] Yeah, and it's such an interesting practice because it's almost like just showing up and doing the work, showing up and meditating; that's all there is to it. And letting go of how good it was, how bad it was, how often your thoughts drifted off. And I think that's so hard especially for lawyers, because we are such perfectionists and we want to do things perfectly, and we want to do things correctly. And I think it's very distressing when you sit down and you have some expectation about how it should go, and you very quickly learn your mind is like a tornado. It's really distressing, and I think it's just sitting in the midst of that distress and saying, well I'm just going to be with that. And it took me a long time, to get out of that judging mode. And I think having an eight-week class, where I would go back every week and say, you know I'm still sucking at this. And the teacher would smile and say, "Yeah? Keep doing it.” [00:24:31] And then after a while it wasn't so distressing that I was sucking at it, it was just like okay I'm just going to do it and not worry about whether it's good or bad. And that's such an important life lesson too, because so often we do something and we have no control over the outcome. You go and argue a hearing, and you don't get to control whether you win or lose. So really the only thing that you can put your effort into is showing up and doing the thing, you know? And I think that's what meditation teaches you, to just show up and do the thing and let go of that attachment to having a certain outcome. Donna Branca: [00:25:12] Absolutely, absolutely. And I do, as far as teaching this to lawyers or working with lawyers or how this might be a tool for lawyers in particular, I feel really, really committed to that, as I know you are. With law students, I'll just give you a quick story.. I was asked by a law school to do a presentation to a group of students and professors. There was a professor who was trying to get a mindfulness curriculum in the school, and she had asked me to come. And she had told me that she was really trying to draw professors to it, because that's the buy-in she really needed. And so I said I'd be happy to bring my husband (who is a judge) because although not a meditator, he had gone to a meditation retreat for me. Because I had been asked to do lots of work at that point with various firms and whatnot, and I asked him to go to this retreat for lawyers, judges, and law professors. And he was really resistant, but I really wanted to send in a skeptic with zero experience and allow it to inform my work. Because there is such a high level of skepticism among lawyers; it's what makes you so good at what you do. It makes you so valuable to your clients, to get them out of their own way. But when he came back, he was absolutely certain that it would have a huge impact on lawyers. [00:26:59] And from his literal perspective from the bench, watching lawyers who are so often either thinking about the next thing they're going to say or what just happened and how they can strategize, as opposed to listening to the witness and the nuances, or being really present with the jurors. He went back and it was somewhat of an experimental laboratory for him to watch this happen, and he was absolutely convinced. So he came to this program with me, as well as another judge who was self-taught, who heads up the drug court. And he uses it both for himself as well as to introduce it to the people who are in his drug court. He's a huge advocate of it, but he also believes that law students can often self-medicate and otherwise, to try to get through the stress. And he really asked them to look at this as a potential tool. And it was really powerful, the professors did come. As I thought they might, having a couple judges show up as opposed to just me. And it was really impactful, really impactful. [00:28:29] And I'm proud and happy to say that the professor did get her curriculum approved. And then subsequently, I was asked to be a guest speaker at one of her classes. And it was remarkable to see the curriculum and how rich it is. My piece was on mindful leadership, which for law students to be hearing this and learning it and experiencing it first-hand, really powerful. And it was so clear that this was such an important class for these students and such growth in it, that I believe every law school should have a curriculum of mindfulness. You know, the resilience that it takes to be a lawyer, the resilience that takes to be in big law or small law. It's every day you need to be resilient. You practice, you work, and you're at odds with someone all day. And the resilience that a lawyer needs is really critical. And I believe this is such an important tool to allowing them to look at things from a growth perspective; if they can shift and remove themselves from the turmoil of what's going on in a current moment and have a mindful response makes a huge difference. Jeena Cho: [00:29:59] Yeah. I Had a conversation with a judge, and he has a deep mindfulness practice. And one thing he told me that I thought was so heartwarming was it helps him to remember and to see (he also does criminal law) that every defendant that comes through his court is an individual, and to see that person as a human being with the full scope of human experiences. And that he's more than the sum of the crime that he committed, which led him to be in this courtroom. And I just thought, what if every lawyer can bring that level of thoughtfulness to everything that they do? Because I think we can get into this way in which we try to do things in bulk, because we're so overwhelmed and we lose that humanity. Donna Branca: [00:30:59] So true. When we talk about criminal law, it makes me think about the mindfulness programs that are going on in prisons and in police departments. And how that ability to learn how to insert a pause before you react, both as a criminal or as a cop.. the world would be a bit different, if we could just insert that pause. It would have a huge impact. So there's a lot of good things. Jeena Cho: [00:31:40] Sometimes when I talk to lawyers and talk about mindfulness, they'll say well that all sounds good, but I'm afraid that it's going to make me less effective; I'm going to lose my edge, or it's going to make me go soft. And I sort of like this aggression that I have all the time. And I think they're afraid of getting in touch with their own emotions, getting in touch with their own experience. And even just that pausing, I think is really frightening for a lot of people. Even just the idea of sitting quietly with your own mind. I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on that. Donna Branca: [00:32:23] I have, I do. It comes up in coaching, and it also is true of not wanting to come into coaching necessarily. Because they don't want to get in touch with this. I don't know if you'd call me "type A", but I am best when I am working like crazy. And so I'm more of that acute stress person, or maybe used to be chronic and now has learned acute, and it makes me so much sharper. And I have talked to many partners and associates and judges who have heard that, who have a practice but have heard that, and say they know that they are a better lawyer and are less stressed. They know when they are in a conference room with adversaries, that they can just look at how getting worked up is having people not be clear and not be as focused. So the lawyers that I talk to who have a practice absolutely say it makes them a better lawyer, and there is nothing about it that has made them lose their edge; it has sharpened their edges. And when we talk about the fight or flight, if our ability to creatively problem solve actually shuts down when we're in that state, then we aren't; then we aren't at our best and we are not focused. And we are not as resilient or as mindful or as present. There's not a lawyer that I know that got soft as a result of a mindfulness practice, there just isn't. [00:34:23] Again, it's tapping into this sixth sense that we forgot we had. Right? Like there's this backpack that is full of tools on our back that we've been carrying around we forgot, that's how I see it. And I really do see it as making people sharper, better lawyers, and better leaders. I do, I do hear that. I think that goes along with the higher level of skepticism. You know Larry Richard's work, where he found that lawyers do have a higher level of skepticism and we've talked about that. So I think there's a resistance, but I would encourage people to try it. It gives more space, not less space. We also talk about they don't have the time or what I talk about is that concept of managing your energy versus managing your time; that if you learn how to manage your energy, you will get more time. That seems to resonate with people. And a mindfulness practice (or whatever practice is important to you) that is going to help you sharpen your ax is really about managing your energy and refining how you utilize your energy, rather than being a prisoner to time. Jeena Cho: [00:36:00] And both of those things, time and energy, have their limits. In terms of how much energy and how much time you can exert on any given day. Donna Branca: [00:36:14] I'd agree but for the fact that energy is renewable, time is not. So what do we need to do to renew our energy? Because you're right, it's limited. If we keep our foot on the gas pedal we'll run out of gas. So what do we need to do to renew it? Sleep helps, mindfulness helps, running helps, exercise helps. Jeena Cho: [00:36:46] It's all the basics: eating well, getting enough sleep, getting some exercise, having connections with others. All of those things I think we all know to do, but somehow it's not a priority or it ends up on the bottom of our to-do list and then it doesn't get done. [00:37:11] Donna, one question for you before we wrap things up. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Donna Branca: [00:37:24] It means more than just bouncing back and being able to bounce back from adversity, but bouncing back better. It means when these things happen (and they do often happen, on a daily basis), things don't go the way you need them to go, you went into a courtroom and the judge is in a mood or something doesn't go your way, and it's going to happen every day. And how can you grow from that, what have you learned from that, and how does that make you a better lawyer tomorrow? I'd say that's what being a resilient lawyer means to me. When we look at the lawyers that we admire most, there is resilience there; they have learned a whole lot along the way. [00:38:27] It reminds me, if I can just throw in this last joke, where someone asks this CEO what made him so successful and he said really good decisions. And when he was asked what enabled him to make really good decisions, he said experience. And then he was asked, how do you get that experience? He said, bad decisions. So to me, that's resilience. Right? Learning from all of the stuff that goes wrong, and figuring out what that might look like and how that might have changed us and shifted things going forward. That's a resilient lawyer. Jeena Cho: [00:39:14] Thank you so much for being with me today Donna, I really appreciate it. Donna Branca: [00:39:18] Oh it is such a pleasure, it really is. And thank you for your work. Closing: [00:39:25] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Leslie Wallis on to discuss the benefits of compassion, care, listening while seeing, and recognizing secondary trauma that comes with the career. Leslie Wallis is a shareholder at Ogletree Deakins, where she provides advice and counsel, training, and litigates employment-related matters. Before entering the legal arena, Leslie was a professional ballet dancer. Now she works with individuals and companies as a mindfulness facilitator and speaks about bringing mindfulness programs into the workplace. Her passion is in increasing the breadth of human awareness and introducing anxiety-ridden professionals to the concepts of compassion and self-care. Topics Covered The underlying trauma of practicing law that most lawyers don't recognize and how it impacts attorneys. The "C" words that we don't speak (compassion, care, "kindness") and how these attributes help you to be a better lawyer. Finding the body and learning how to see and feel how different parts of the body are affected by different secondary trauma ailments. She also goes into how dance and movement and the intellectual exercises in both law and business can compliment each other. Learning to listen, and the effect attentive listening has on ethics and secular mindfulness. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Leslie Wallis: [00:00:00] Well I don't think compassion is concession. If you can exercise compassion, you have a better ability then to make an argument that's going to be heard by the other side, so that you can move forward and advocate for your client in a much more effective way. Intro: [00:00:19] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I'm so happy to have my friend Leslie Wallis. She is a shareholder at Ogletree Deakins, where she provides advice and counsel, training, and litigates employment-related matters. Before entering the legal arena Leslie was a professional ballet dancer. Now she works with individuals and companies as a mindfulness facilitator and speaks about bringing mindfulness programs into the workplace. Her passion is in increasing the depth of human awareness and introducing anxiety-ridden professionals to the concept of compassion and self-care. [00:01:22] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my bonus episode on working with loneliness, go back and check it out. I shared a 6-minute guided meditation to help you work with a sense of loneliness, which I think a lot of lawyers can feel. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, but they don't have the time. Mindful Pause is designed for busy lawyers like you, and is designed to be done in just 6 minutes. So head on over to JeenaCho.com or check it out and the show notes. And with that, here's Leslie. Hello Leslie, welcome to the show. Leslie Wallis: [00:01:56] Hi Jeena, I'm so happy to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:01:59] Let's get started by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Leslie Wallis: [00:02:05] Well, my name is Leslie Wallace. I have practiced law now for 32 years. I'm kind of surprised I'm still doing it, but I do still do it. And I also, as you said, have a passion around mindfulness and how we practice law now, watching how the practice has changed over the years. And so my goals are more around resolution, understanding each other, advising people, and trying to remember the human aspects of being a counselor, as well as what we do as zealous advocates. Jeena Cho: [00:02:47] Yea, and I think that idea of being a counselor is so critical to what we do as lawyers. We're not just robots, we don't just produce documents; that we play the role of being a counselor. And I know you have spoken a lot about working with the trauma of that is often involved in practicing law. So tell us about that. Leslie Wallis: [00:03:11] Yeah, it's been an interesting journey for me, that I have done some training around facilitating mindfulness. But as I have introduced these concepts to people I work with or people who are our clients, I've started to realize that there is, for many of us, a trauma associated with the practice that we don't really recognize or maybe want to accept. And for some of us, it's a form of secondary trauma that comes from interactions with opposing counsel, it could be with court, it could be with our clients, either because our clients themselves are in pain or they're difficult. But our practice on a day to day basis involves a lot of dealing with other people's problems, which we then tend to take on ourselves; it leads to demands on ourselves and some very unreal expectations about what we are capable of as people. And as a result, we end up experiencing ourselves either compassion fatigue or a form of secondary traumatic stress. And what I see that leads to is a number of things, avoidance of emotions and numbing, we see a lot of anxiety and depression in the profession. We may see that we become even more judgmental, not only of colleagues and opposing counsel and clients, but of ourselves or the people that we are close to, and that we may become cynical or even angry in terms of our practice. And these are all symptoms of experiencing this kind of trauma that we don't even talk about, and certainly we are not trained to deal with. Law school doesn't mention anything about trauma. Jeena Cho: [00:05:19] Yeah. Can you give maybe a specific example from your own life about some type of trauma that you experienced as a lawyer, and also how the mindfulness practice helped you to move through that trauma and what that looks like? Leslie Wallis: [00:05:38] I practice employment law, and I actually practice it primarily now on the defense side; I do management practice, so we are typically defending cases. So we often have people, for example, who may be accused of something that they didn't do, or feel they didn't do. And so I might be hearing that for them, but I want to use a current.. something that just recently happened, because it's alive for me right now. And it was around trying to resolve a case. We had mediated it some months ago, it did not resolve. And then I got a call from a mediator saying, we can maybe resolve this. The other side is willing to move tremendously if you can do it basically immediately; you have two days to try and do this. And it was like, 6:00 at night when I got the call. Like if you can do it by the end of the next business day, we can make this happen. And I was a little bit flummoxed about what the rush was suddenly after all this time, and I was told that my opposing counsel was going to sign a declaration saying that I had said something that was going to impact the case, and that after he signed that he assumed I would be unwilling to work with him anymore around resolution. So the immediate thing that happened for me, and I could feel it in my body, was that initial what did I do, what have I done wrong? What is my client going to think, and did I create some problem here? What is he talking about, where is this going? And then, being able to step back from that with all the arising emotions; I could feel it in my shoulders and my chest. And think wait a minute, this is where the mindfulness kicks in. This isn't about me, this is not about me. This is about this case, this is what my client wants to have happen, not what I want to have happen. That's not how I operate anyway. And the idea that somebody who really doesn't know me, except I have not litigated across from this person before, would automatically jump to the idea that his opponent would be so unwilling even to talk once a statement which he must believe to be true would be made was rather astonishing. So yeah, it brought up all kinds of things about my own sense of self-worth, my own capabilities and all of that. And also then having to present to the client in advance, this may be coming down the pipe. And in this particular case, I was lucky my client didn't say, well why is he saying that? But that could happen, that has happened. Where you have your own client frustrated with how you got to a certain point; that in the process of making it happen it made sense, but in the context of whatever's coming up in your litigation or resolution is now a problem for them. And the blame starts coming or their frustration may shift to you, and you're trying to hold the other side's sense about you, your client's sense about yourself, and then whoever is actually involved in the litigation, hold their space at the same time to let them know what's happening. It's a lot to hold. Jeena Cho: [00:09:39] Yeah, yeah. And as you're telling the story, I can feel the pit of my stomach drop, I can feel that tension. It's just such a bad feeling, when something like that happens and you just don't know what to expect and they're threatening you. It's just such an unpleasant feeling, and I think we as lawyers is something that we often experience. Which actually then leads me very nicely to the next topic of compassion and care, what you call the "C" words. So tell us about how compassion and kindness and caring for yourself and others helps you to be a better lawyer. Because I think so often lawyers kind of frown upon that, I know that's certainly been my experience. I talk about compassion and they're like, no I'm a lawyer. No, there's just no room for compassion. So actually maybe backing up a little bit, when we talk about compassion what does that mean to you, to start with? Leslie Wallis: [00:10:39] So compassion (and this is not probably my definition, but one I've heard) is when caring comes up against someone else's pain. So there is some issue that is definitely not mine in the room, somebody else who is suffering in some way, and that I can see that person and whatever they are saying or doing as first of all human, and not just a vehicle for a message. And I think we lose that a lot in our effort to want to dive into our point and our message, and to show how smart we are and to remove ourselves from the emotional aspects of what we are doing. Sometimes forgetting that this whole process, the whole legal process, is designed as a problem-solving vehicle for the society. So that we don't go around punching each other or hurting each other in other ways, we have a system set up that is without a doubt not perfect, but is better than some of the alternatives of what people try to do. But we are also, the one "C" word I think many, many lawyers, particularly litigators, would use is "competitive." And competitive, sometimes we don't think that it can be in the same room with compassion. And I don't know that that's true number one, and number two if I have a choice between competition and compassion I'm going to choose compassion every time, because I think ultimately that's going to get us to our result. Which is a resolution of a problem that both sides are acknowledging exists, whether or not they think that they are at fault for it; there is a problem or they wouldn't need us. Jeena Cho: [00:12:51] Yeah. So what do you say to a lawyer who says I can't be compassionate because it's my job to advocate for my client? If I'm being compassionate towards the other side, that I would be conceding to what they want, or that I wouldn't be doing what's in the best interests of my client. Leslie Wallis: [00:13:11] Well I don't think compassion is concession. Again, I think in order to make the best arguments we can for our clients, (we were taught this in law school) you need to be able to see the other side. What better way to see the other side and see what that human.. and I mean that even when you have a corporate client because a corporation has a name at the top of a building or on the door and a bunch of walls, but the people are what make it what it is. So it is understanding where they are coming from, why they're acting in the way they're acting, and understanding on the other side what they may be feeling that is driving whatever their concerns are. And if you can exercise compassion, you have a better ability to make an argument that's going to be heard by the other side, so that you can move forward and advocate for your client in a much more effective way. So I don't believe that compassion and effectiveness are at either end of the spectrum, I actually think that they coincide in the middle. Jeena Cho: [00:14:25] Yeah, yeah. And I think you can be fierce and you can advocate for what you believe to be true and stand up, and do it in a way that's compassionate. And I know for me, when I started practicing compassion one of the hardest things I had to learn how to do was to be compassionate towards myself. And I remember having all kinds of concern in the beginning, like if I'm being compassionate towards myself how am I ever going to get off my butt and do stuff? I'll just be a complete lazy ass, right? I just had all kinds of misconceptions about being compassionate towards myself. Can you talk a little bit about what that journey was like for you? That journey of learning to be kinder towards yourself, and to hold yourself to a standard that's less than perfection? Leslie Wallis: [00:15:18] Well that was really hard for me, and although I don't like to make generalizations I think that I'm going to make this one. Which is, I think many, many lawyers, maybe not all, but many lawyers are perfectionists. That's the type of personality often that is drawn to the profession, are people who have very high expectations of themselves and somehow, somewhere believe that perfectionism is possible. So this vision of the lawyer who always gets it right, who knows what to say in every situation, is in a lot of our heads. And the ability to look at myself and say, "I, like the person next to me, is also human, and that means I'm going to make mistakes is a form of compassion towards myself, but it doesn't mean I'm a doormat. And so I let everybody roll over me because I'm imperfect, and therefore I'm just going to make mistakes so oh well." So there is a drive to do things right, and then to also appreciate that I am an imperfect human. I am imperfect because I am human. And then the part about self-care, I did find for myself also that in doing compassion practices or kindness practices of any sort, that (and I don't think my experience is unusual) being able to bring those to myself was far harder for me than being able to do that for somebody I care about, and people that I don't really know that well. That I might go out of my way to help them in a way I won't go out of my way to help myself, because that is seen as somehow a sign of weakness, that I need to take care of myself. We tend to push through to believe we can do things without sleep or without food or without.. you know, we're going to be stronger, better or faster than everybody else. And I'm sure you've used this phrase before as well, that we do need to put our own oxygen masks on first. We aren't really capable of taking care of our clients, our cases, whatever it is that we need to take care of, without standing on the ground ourselves, knowing where we are coming from. Because otherwise, the question will come to us, well how did you get there? Why are you saying this? And when the ground isn't underneath your feet around that, you haven't really thought that through; you haven't really taken care of the space for yourself to say this is why this is going to work or I feel this way, it's really hard to make anybody else believe it. So that's part of it, but also just that self-care of the physical self-care that we tend to really abandon very quickly in this practice of law, as opposed to the practice of mindfulness, is something we do need to learn and stop thinking about as being selfish. It is not selfish to take care of oneself. I had someone tell me some years ago, and I really like this image, that they want to be a safe space for other people to be around. And my image of that was a tree that people could sit under, and be comfortable being there next to it. If the roots of that tree are not stable, you're not safe for the people who are sitting under you, or the people sitting by you. Jeena Cho: [00:19:08] I love that image, wow. Leslie Wallis: [00:19:10] So I see that self-care as watering and caring for the roots, so that I am able to be a safe space for my clients, for the people in my personal life as well, and to be able to hold myself steady and strong in the face of when people come after me. So when they are attacking, to realize how impersonal that attack may be; that that's not mine. I'm not carrying that, and I can stand with the issues that are important and be able to come back in as kind a way as I possibly can. Which may mean I'm very firm and I don't take what someone is saying to be even true in certain instances and point out why; that may be the kindest thing to do under the circumstances. Jeena Cho: [00:20:02] You know, I think one of the things that come up often when we talk about self-care is caring for both the mind and the body. And it's interesting because when I first started going on this mindfulness journey, I think one of the things you realize is that emotions and so much of your direct experience to the world happens in the body, but I remember feeling like no, I don't have any emotions in the body. I don't even know what you're talking about; I do all of my thinking and all of my processing and all of my life experiencing through the mind. So can you talk a little bit about that connection between the mind and the body? That connection between the intellectual exercise in law and the importance of being connected to the body? Leslie Wallis: [00:20:54] Yeah, this is a place that I really like to talk about and focus on. I think in some ways, I have an advantage over other people driven to this profession, because I started my life from when I was 3 years old in dance. I was a ballet dancer, so in ballet there's a lot of discipline; your expression is focused in a particular way. But it is definitely expression through the body. And still some of the same senses of perfectionism again and discipline that you get in the legal profession, so when people ask me how I got from point A to point B those are things I can actually talk about. But it was a little bit easier when I started in the mindfulness journey to say, oh I see that; I can feel that in my body, because I'm used to seeing where things happen in the body. Whereas I.. I have a slide in something that I present sometimes to lawyers, and it's a statue that's a head with two legs coming out of it. And I feel sometimes that that's what the people around me are like; that everything is in the head, and all that body is is a vehicle to move that head around the world. But if we stop for a minute and think wait, where am I feeling this? I'm agitated for example, that is something that we tend to think about in our head. Or I'm anxious. What I can say to myself is, how do I know I'm anxious? How do I know I'm agitated? And it may be that there's looping thoughts going on in my head, but in fact the reason I know I'm anxious is because there's a tightness in my chest and my fists are balled or my shoulders are tight. I can remember when I first started practicing, there was a place on the left side of the middle of my back that was this hole that I would experience a lot of pain in, and I realized that's where I was holding a lot of the stress. That that's where it was for me. And then where does it go in my body, so I can trace it down? And the other question that can I ask myself to understand the mind and body connection is, where am I not feeling this? Is there a place that I don't feel anxious? Do my feet feel anxious, do my earlobes feel anxious? Does my nose feel anxious? And then noticing oh wait, I don't feel things perhaps in those places. So what anxiety is for me is this collection of sensations; and once I could see that, then I can pull those apart, they're not so controlling. Over, "Well I'm just anxious and my thoughts are zooming, and I can't stop them," which is a place that I certainly tended to go. Like, how do I stop this or I need to fix it. [00:24:26] I'm a fixer. You know, you could be judgmental, you could be comparing, you could be a fixer. I'm probably all three, but my default is fixing. I'm just going to fix the problem and I'm going to think my way out of it. And noticing one, no matter where my thoughts are, no matter where my mind is, which is often planning in the future for me. How am I going to fix what happened yesterday? My body is here in the present; it's always in the present. So when I can come back and see what's happening right now, you can say wait a minute I'm not at risk right now; nobody's threatening me right now in this moment. So I can take a breath around that, I can notice.. or even just engaging in the conversation and I think, oh am I saying the right thing? Where do I feel that? I actually can feel it in my thighs right now. That's interesting, that I'm feeling that there. And as I breathe into it, it doesn't go away but it releases a little bit. Jeena Cho: [00:25:39] And I found paying attention to the physiological response of anxiety.. so I always feel it in the center of my chest; I can always notice my heart beating faster, my stomach will clinch up. And paying attention to that and working on softening the belly and breathing a little bit slower and deeper is much more effective in managing anxiety than trying to logic or reason my way out of anxiety. Because my mind, the anxious brain, is so much better at telling me that it's totally justified to feel anxious and why wouldn't you feel anxious. So it's not a fight that I can win with my own mind; versus it's much easier for me to go, oh yeah I can definitely feel it in the pit of my stomach, let me just focus on breathing. I actually found that to be a much more effective strategy for working with anxiety than trying to think my way out of it. I think that's so often what we try to do, is we try to logic our way out of that unpleasant feeling that we're experiencing. Leslie Wallis: [00:26:48] The one thing we're trained in is logical thinking. So it's not exactly surprising, especially as lawyers that that's what we do. But I have found, even with clients.. I've had clients where they're really frustrated about some problem that's going on or they have an issue with an employee and they'll call and say, "In my day I'd just do this and that." And that I can actually say to them before we even start this conversation, just take a breath. Because (and here's where the compassion comes in too) I understand you're frustrated; I understand this is really upsetting and this is what you would like to do. But if you could take a breath, then we can then actually reason our way through what's going on. But in fact, very often where we think we're reasoning we're going from an emotional response. And being with the body allows us to get back to noticing again like you said, just releasing the things that are causing the tensions physically in the body, to a place where we can hear; we can hear what's actually being said. We can hear what's around us, and then resolve whatever the issue of the moment is and really look at that issue instead of what happened yesterday, what's happening tomorrow, and how we're creating problems before they even happen. That happened for me a lot in advice work, where people will say well what if this happens, what if that happens? There are an indefinite number of possibilities of what might happen. Here are a few of the ones that are most likely, but really we need to take the next step. So just focus on this, and then let's reconvene and see how to deal with the next step instead of going into that anxious loop about what if, what if, what if, what if. Jeena Cho: [00:28:51] Yeah, which is not particularly helpful because when things do go off track, it never goes off track in the exact way that you had anticipated or imagined. So I find that "what if" exercise to be not terribly helpful; all it does is increase anxiety and that sense of helplessness. Leslie Wallis: [00:29:11] And that's the other thing we as lawyers like to do, is control everything. So when we feel helpless, we tend to wind ourselves up a lot. So understanding that we don't have that much control over our clients, opposing counsel, what the court's going to do or the docket, and we realize how little we actually do have control over, it allows me to let go of more things and just say okay something's going to happen. Things happen, right now it's like this. What am I going to do about what's happening right now? Jeena Cho: [00:29:57] I think one thing that mindfulness has taught me is that, I always considered myself to be a good listener but I realized I'm not actually that great a listener. It actually taught me to listen in a very different way than the way that I was used to, and I'm curious how a mindfulness practice has helped you to be a better listener, or learning how to listen? Leslie Wallis: [00:30:24] Yeah, that's a really important thing. One of the things that we learn in law school is we are trained how to listen with one ear. And it's important, it is important to a certain extent. We need to think on our feet a lot, particularly in the litigation context where the judge or opposing counsel may be making an argument and you need to be able to think about that, and to be formulating your response. That is necessary, I'm not pretending that it's not. But if we actually are able to (and I think mindfulness has really helped this) listen with instead of 20% of our body and our ear towards what they're actually saying, and 80% creating what we're going to do next. If we can shift that dynamic so it's 50/50 or maybe, even more, listening than planning the next part of our argument or our conversation, we may find that we're hearing different things and that our response is going to change. And that that response may be much more reasoned, and also much more engaged. When the other side or the judge or your client or your friend or your spouse or your child thinks you are listening, really listening to them, they are much more likely also to listen to you. And your response to that, the message that they're giving out is going to be framed in a manner that may be more effective rather than less effective. [00:32:20] It is a hard exercise to do. I mean I like also to think that I am able to listen, but I've realized in my mindfulness practice how often I want to jump in, either to say oh yes I've experienced that also, or no no no, this is really where you should be going. You need to go or have you heard, or have you thought about..? Instead of letting the person get to the end of their discussion, where they will actually be turning towards me.. to stream back to where I started this and that traumatic experience of what this attorney was going to say about me, it ended up that what he put in his declaration was very, very limited. And what he put in his papers was very, very complimentary of me. I don't know whether it was out of fear, it certainly wasn't based on a personal experience. But he ended up almost undoing his own comments, by saying how much he respected me. And it left me with this smile and this feeling of, well that is really interesting where that landed. And had I not waited to see that that was coming next and only attacked or been prepared to attack the first comment, my interaction with him would be very different. Jeena Cho: [00:33:56] Yeah. And I think we can so often fall into that trap of jumping to conclusions, or even the way that you're listening; you're listening, but your brain is yammering away the whole time, coming up with your defenses and coming up with your responses and your rebuttals. And you might miss what the person is actually saying in the process and not fully understand what's being said, and oftentimes what's not being said. And if you truly listen, you can ask follow-up questions and with curiosity say, "Well I heard you say this, but how about that?" And it's almost magical in a way, when you can show up with that sense of openness. It diffuses the other person; they may show up with a lot of anger, hostility, defensiveness, so on and so forth. But if you can allow yourself to listen with that sense of openness, then it's like they don't have something to push up against so it makes it less likely that the conversation will spiral out of control and get hostile or unproductive. Leslie Wallis: [00:35:07] Yeah, in my personal life I have some family members who are very, very difficult people; just suffering a lot of both physical and emotional pain. And my lessons in dealing with them have carried over into my professional life, and one of the things I have learned is when there is this push back and blame and, "I think you're saying this or why are you doing that or I believe this is wrong or immoral or difficult or whatever," then I can say I don't disagree with you about "x" maybe, but I disagree with you about "y". Or I disagree with you about this but I still feel.. let me use a specific example because it's a little hard in the generalities. I was sitting in the car having a conversation with one of my family members who said, "I don't know why you're still friends with this particular person; they've done something that I think was harmful." And my response, that I don't think would have been before I was a mindfulness practitioner; I might have been very defensive. The friend is somebody I've known essentially my entire life. And I said, you know I don't disagree with you what this person did was wrong. I might even argue that it was unethical or immoral, but he's still my friend. And that action was not all of what I know this person is. And that was a much wiser response than I would have been able to do, had I not listened to everything that my family member was saying to me, and be able to say, "Yeah I hear you; I'm listening to what you're saying. It makes sense to me that this is how you feel, and my feelings about this are different. And they're my feelings, they're just my feelings. This is my own experience." And I think we can bring that into our professional lives; I hear you, we hear what you're saying. This is what we do as lawyers, and I have a different perspective. Can you hear me? Jeena Cho: [00:37:37] Yeah, and that's such a powerful experience. Even if you don't agree, just that sense of being heard and understood can really soften and have that human connection; I think that's one of our most desired things that we want as humans, is to be heard and understood and have that sense of connection with others. So that doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with the other person; all those things can happen and you can still have your different perspectives. Leslie Wallis: [00:38:10] Yeah, I think it also leads to trust in the professional relationship. The other side trusts that you're going to do what you said. And that they trust in you as a person to listen to them, even if you're going to do something completely different than they want you to do. And that trust is important in allowing our system, our legal system, to work. We have to, on some level, believe that we are working towards a common goal within the system. We may not want the same outcome, but we're working to make the system work for our clients. Jeena Cho: [00:38:55] Yeah, definitely. One last question before I let you go. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Leslie Wallis: [00:39:06] Well that's kind of a big question as the last one, but I think what it means to me is to remember that I'm human. To remember when I am judged, to try to be less judgmental of others. To notice where I've become rigid or overinvolved, and to be able to be aware that that's what I'm doing. And then to come back to a place where I'm standing my own ground, and I feel content with myself standing there; that I'm not unhappy with what I have done or what I have said in the interaction. That's the resilience that I work for, so that I can come back and fight another day. Jeena Cho: [00:40:16] Leslie, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate it. Leslie Wallis: [00:40:20] It was a pleasure. Closing: [00:40:26] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Michelle Wimes on to talk about Diversity and Inclusion and the importance of sharing your diversity story. Michelle Wimes serves as the Chief Diversity and Professional Development Officer at one of the nation's largest labor and employment law firms. In her role, Michelle leads the firm's efforts to attract, develop, and advance a diverse group of attorneys across the firm's national platform. Additionally, Michelle leads the firm's attorney training and professional development efforts. Topics Covered Her incredible journey from being a lawyer in a multitude of different law specialties, to the D&I Professional she is today and her thoughts on diversity and inclusion in today's law firm. She talks on the challenges she faced as a woman of color that is a lawyer, and how far we have come and have yet to go with social biases and constructs. How Ogletree approaches D&I, by both creating a common language that imbues diversity in the firm's mission and values while making diversity a shared responsibility with everyone. How to get buy-in from white males on D&I efforts, and getting away from the zero-sum game mentality on diversity that some non-person of color lawyers can feel. How getting involved with different D&I events and organizations and spreading your network there can greatly affect how lawyers view D&I in their own firm. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Michelle Wimes: [00:00:00] We don't feel like diversity should just be siloed over by itself to one thing, right? We really believe that diversity should be tied into the talent management process. It needs to be tied into how we recruit people, how we hire people. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am so happy to have Michelle Wimes. She serves as the Chief Diversity and Professional Development Officer at one of the nation's largest labor and employment law firms. In her role, Michelle leads the firm's efforts to attract, develop, and advance a diverse group of attorneys across the firm's national platform. Additionally, Michelle leads the firm's attorney training and professional development efforts. [00:01:11] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should be practicing mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Michelle. Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle Wimes: [00:01:58] Thank you Jeena, happy to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:01] So to get us started, can you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do? Michelle Wimes: [00:02:08] Certainly. I grew up in the Midwest, in Kansas City, Missouri, and I've always been interested in other cultures and languages. I've had a proclivity in Spanish; in fact, my major in college was Spanish. And I lived abroad in Mexico and Spain for a year, and it's just interesting because I reflect on being made fun of for being an African-American woman or girl who learned another language, and people just didn't understand why I wanted to learn another language and they really kidded me. Like, what are you going to do with that in Kansas City, Missouri and living in the Midwest? And so I've always just found myself being an advocate for equity and representation, and for women particularly, being able to do things outside the norm. So for the last 10 years, I would call myself (and the work that I've done over the last 10 years) an inclusion strategist and a cultural innovator. And particularly, I think my focus has been on challenging leaders and organizations to move beyond the status quo and to really interrupt their own biases so that they can ultimately create environments where diverse talent can thrive. And I try to do that by developing organizational solutions; that includes everything from creating the necessary infrastructure, advocating for and adopting inclusive policies, equipping our leaders to be more culturally competent to understand what cultural competence means, and also developing innovative programming and initiatives that are talent-based strategies. So that's what I do in my day job, and I also do a lot of speaking and training on diversity and equity and inclusion as well. Jeena Cho: [00:04:05] Did you start as a practicing lawyer before you moved into the D&I space? Michelle Wimes: [00:04:11] I did, I did. It's been about 24 years. I was just thinking about that this morning, how long has it been since I've been out of law school? And I graduated 24 years ago. I practice law for about 14 years, so I've been on the administrative side doing diversity and/or professional development for the past 10 years. And my focus area when I was practicing was mostly in the employment arena, some immigration law, I did discrimination and harassment, and I also practiced education law; I've represented a number of school districts and worked with quite a few school board members, superintendents, principals, administrators. So I really enjoyed that area as well. And then I also had a five-year stint where I did some product liability work, particularly I was able to utilize my Spanish speaking skills and travel quite a bit, working to develop expert witnesses in tobacco litigation. [00:05:14] I loved that work because it took me all over Latin America; I was working in Brazil and Venezuela, Panama, Guatemala, Mexico, Costa Rica. I just really, really loved that work; I loved going into different cultures and being able to utilize my Spanish. And they got us a Portuguese tutor at one point, so I was learning a little bit of how to speak Portuguese. I never really picked up a whole lot of it, but I got to the point where I could at least be proficient and read Portuguese. Because we had a lot of documents that were coming in in Portuguese, and we needed to be able to read, catalogue, and sort through those. Jeena Cho: [00:05:56] So in your many decades of practicing law, when you look back on it in hindsight do you feel like we're making progress towards having more diversity and inclusion in our law firms? How does it feel to you, having gone through being a practicing lawyer and then moving more into the leadership arena? Michelle Wimes: [00:06:18] I do feel like we are making progress, I feel like it is incremental progress though. I don't feel like it's like I can just look and say, oh my gosh we have so many more attorneys of color than we had 20 years ago. I don't see it in that respect. Where I do see it is I do see more women moving into leadership roles in law firms, I do see more women serving in and becoming equity partners and things of that nature. But in terms of attorneys of color, those numbers still are very abysmal. And even when you look at African-American attorneys in particular, and African-American female attorneys, the numbers are just so very small. So there is much work that remains to be done. Jeena Cho: [00:07:11] Are there experiences or stories that stand out to you, an experience that you went through because you're African-American that other people let's say who are white would not have, when you were practicing law or just in your professional experience? Michelle Wimes: [00:07:32] I would say there are a number of experiences that I've had as a woman of color practicing law, that I think probably other women of color can identify with. I remember going into a deposition once and they thought that I was the paralegal. Another time they thought I was the court reporter or the person who transcribes the depositions and things like that. And I was like, no I'm actually here to take the deposition. I just remember having those kinds of experiences can be very disheartening because they speak to.. and I had to learn this the hard way, because initially when something like that happens you internalize it and you think that something's wrong with you. But you have to recognize that that speaks to that person's own bias and that person's own personal and professional experiences as to what their expectations are for who opposing counsel should be or what opposing counsel should look like, or what an attorney looks like, right? [00:08:55] And I speak to other women of color attorneys, even younger women now that I mentor and sponsor, who still have even in 2018 those kinds of experiences. And it's disheartening because we ARE in 2018, and you just wouldn't think that those kinds of things still happen, but they do. Jeena Cho: [00:09:16] Yeah, I'm surprised at how common that is. I remember being a baby attorney and walking into the courtroom and the judge looked at me and said, "Are you the Asian language interpreter?" And that question just completely perplexed me, because I was like what, so I know how to speak all 150 Asian languages and the thousand dialects? Michelle Wimes: [00:09:39] Right, assumptions that that judge is making based on your appearance and based on what you look like, and it's just ridiculous. I remember one of my first trials that I had, and the judge addressed me as "little missy." It had to be 20 years ago, right? I was probably a fourth-year associate, fifth-year associate and yeah. The judge, who shall remain unnamed, that is how he referred to me until I had to pull him aside and say, "Could you please call me Mrs. (because I was married at the time) Patterson-Wimes?" And he finally stopped. And of course, he didn't call my co-counsel, who was a male partner at the firm that I was working with, "little mister." But I was a little missy, in front of the jury mind you. Jeena Cho: [00:10:43] Yeah, and of course you can't react. You really just have to keep a poker face when the judge says something like that in front of the jury, because you don't want the jury to get a bad impression of you if correct him. Michelle Wimes: [00:11:01] Yeah, because if you correct them right there in front of the jury, you look like the person who is the a-hole. So you have to be very careful with how you handle that. Jeena Cho: [00:11:12] Yeah, it's that Goldilocks Dilemma; you can't be too aggressive but you can't be too polite, and you can't be too nice but you can't be too mean. Michelle Wimes: [00:11:23] Exactly, exactly. Jeena Cho: [00:11:26] Well, maybe we can shift the conversation a little bit and chat about.. you obviously work in a large law firm, and I would imagine that trying to think about diversity when you have such a large pool of attorneys and also staff, I would imagine it's overwhelming. What's your approach for thinking about diversity and inclusion? Because I think this is such a complex issue, right? It's not just about the numbers, it's not just about saying, well we hire so many of these type of mixture of people. But it's about retention and who gets placed into leadership roles; there are so many different angles to think about. So I guess the overarching goal in terms of how you and the firm think about diversity and inclusion. Michelle Wimes: [00:12:22] The overarching goal for us is to attract super talented lawyers; to attract them to our firm, to recruit them here. And then once they're here, to develop them and to create wonderful opportunities so that they can learn and they can grow. And once they have matured and they've gained a certain skillset, we then want to encourage them to move into leadership positions in the firm, encourage them to become rainmakers, to be key relationships stakeholders with our clients. We just see diversity as kind of a progression, there's a continuum. And we want to, no matter what the person's gender or sexual orientation or gender identity or religion or race or ethnicity, we want to make sure that we're embracing all parts of that. [00:13:29] Those people are talent that's coming in the door, and that they have those opportunities to grow. I'm glad you asked me this question because I do think that Ogletree is a little different in the way we approach diversity because we have combined diversity and inclusion with our professional development department. In some firms, you'll see they've combined diversity with recruiting, which that makes sense. For Ogletree though, and I think we're rare, we're probably one a handful, maybe one of 5 or 6 AM Law 100 firms that combine diversity and professional development. And we do that very intentionally and strategically because we don't feel like diversity should just be siloed over by itself to one thing, right? We really believe that diversity should be tied into the talent management process, it needs to be tied into how we recruit people, how we hire people. What are the programs that we're developing, what are the initiatives that we have in place so that people are learning and growing, and then how do we promote our talent and how do we move them through that pipeline? So our attorneys, we want them to be culturally competent. We want them to be able to work across all different perspectives and beliefs and to understand how to work with different people from different backgrounds. We believe that just as important as writing is to a lawyer's career, learning how to research, learning the professional skillset that you need to be a good attorney, leadership training, client development. We believe that along with all of those things, it's also really important to be inclusive, to act inclusive, to be culturally competent. And so that's why we've combined the two of these things together and that's how we approach it, because we feel like to be successful in a 21st century environment where it's increasingly global, you need to know how to get along with people and you need to know how to respect people, and you need to know how to embrace people from different backgrounds and experiences and perspectives. Jeena Cho: [00:15:45] Yeah. I often find (I don't know if you probably have this experience too) that people want to delegate diversity and inclusion, like well we have that person who manages all the diversity and inclusion. But it's really hard to fold in that conversation in everyday situations. Like there's some meeting, everyone's sitting around and have people look around the room and say, oh this is not a very diverse pool of people. And how do we go about actually adding some more diversity? How do you shift away from delegating diversity and inclusion to either yourself (since that word is in your title), to filtering it into people's consciousness? And have them look around the room and say, everyone in this room is a white male. You know, whatever that situation might be. Michelle Wimes: [00:16:50] I think that it's really important to make diversity personal. I think you have to personalize it, right? I think that everybody should feel responsibility for ensuring that we have diverse voices at the table. And the only way that you're going to do that is when it becomes everybody's responsibility. It's not just the responsibility of the Chief Diversity and Professional Development Officer, it's not just the responsibility of the Professional Development and Inclusion Team. So it is creating a common language so that people understand that this is part of our firm's mission; this is part of our core values, to make sure that we have diverse voices at the table. [00:17:37] How do you get those diverse voices at the table? Many times, it's when you have people from diverse backgrounds and people who have diverse experiences. And the proxy for that many times is people of different genders and races and ethnicities and sexual orientations and what have you. So from my perspective, I want to equip and empower my leaders. I want to make sure that we're speaking a common language; that they understand what diversity and inclusion is, why it's important, why it's a core value in the firm, and what they can do to promote diversity and inclusion. So when I'm not in the room, and I shouldn't have to be in every single room, it is something that they can carry forward as a core value in the firm. It's not something that I or somebody on my team has to be in the room for it to be thought about or for it to be a priority. It is because we are all operating from the same language, we are all operating from the same set of core values, and whether you're a white male or a white female or an Asian female or Hispanic male, you're in the room; you need to be equipped to be able to feel confident enough to advocate and to have conversations advocating for diversity and advocating for an inclusive environment. And we can talk about this a little later, because I know one of the other questions you want to talk about is how do you get the buy-in from white males on diversity, and I can go into that later because I do think that there are some tools that firms can utilize, that chief diversity officers can utilize in getting everyone to personalize what diversity means and to take it as part of their core, so that it becomes part of how they operate. It's part of how you end up doing business. Jeena Cho: [00:19:31] Well, let's just go there then. How do we get buy-in from white males on diversity and inclusion efforts? I find (because I have a lot of these conversations with my white male lawyer friends) it's either like, yeah I can see why diversity and inclusion is important, and I don't want to work with everybody else that are essentially carbon copies of myself. But I feel uncomfortable speaking out in front of my colleagues who all look like me, because they're going to be like well what do you care? You're a white dude. Why is this conversation important to you? Or they think that if we have these special programs like a woman's retreat or a POC retreat for the attorneys of color in the firm, that we're somehow treating them as more special, therefore we're somehow discriminating against the other white attorneys. So I feel like it's such a complicated issue, it definitely is a complicated issue. So yeah, I'll just leave it at that. Michelle Wimes: [00:20:39] No, you're absolutely right. Yes, you're absolutely right. It is a complicated issue, and when I say personalize what diversity and inclusion means what I mean is that we have to move away from this concept of scarcity and this zero-sum game and the way that we approach diversity. That if a woman or a minority is promoted, or they get to go on a pitch and pitch for new business, or if they get promoted, that that's automatically taking away a benefit or a promotion or an opportunity from a white male. Right? So it's having people understand that if you increase the pie, there's a bigger piece of the pie for everyone to share. So if a person of color happens to be the person who's assigned to go to a pitch and they bring back that business, if they hadn't gotten that business you'd have 0% of 0% to share. Right? But that business comes in the door and then you are also working on that business, 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing, right? So it's moving away from this concept of scarcity and really approaching it from an abundance mentality. And many times, this happens for me in the course of relationship building. I think that you absolutely have to get to know people; you have to spend time with them, you have to understand what their diversity and inclusion story is. [00:22:15] And many times when I have these conversations with white male colleagues, they're like what do you mean my diversity story? Everybody has a diversity story. Tell me who you are; just because you're a white male doesn't mean that you don't have diverse experiences or that you haven't felt different, you haven't felt separated or apart from a group or an individual at some point in your life. So if I can talk to them, for instance if it's a white male partner and I've done this, I've had this conversation. Where they have a daughter and that daughter is a lawyer, and that daughter is working in a law firm and battling up against trying to get a seat at the table; trying to meet their billable hour requirement, trying to get good work. So now their eyes are open because their daughter comes home and she's complaining about the very things that we're developing diversity initiatives around. So for the first time it's like they can see, oh my gosh now I see why this is needed. Because it becomes personal to them, because it's an experience that they can identify as having someone in their family who has been treated differently. It's the same with when you talk to people, do you have a child with a disability? Do you have someone in your family who has had to deal with being otherized, because of a special trait or characteristic? [00:23:42] So when you start drilling down on these stories, they can start to identify and empathize and understand where the pain points are, and identify with those pain points, right? So it increases their cultural competency. So my whole thing is that when you personalize this for people, it gives them greater opportunity to look at things from a different perspective and to want to create greater opportunities for other people, because they understand and have personalized it, and understand how difficult it is. In the same breath though Jeena, I should say too that I feel like it's really important that diverse lawyers are excellent. I think that you have to bring your best self to the table, and I think that you have to seek sponsors. And in the course of seeking a sponsor or a mentor, that person can be a person of a different race or ethnicity, gender. And in the course of doing that, again you're making it personal. You are developing a relationship with that person, and that person is going to be more inclined to invest in you when they realize the similarities and the commonalities that you have. So if you bring that excellence and you're doing a great job workwise, it's that much easier for people to want to get to know you and to find out what the commonalities and similarities are, and to want to invest in you and in your career. So I think you get that buy-in through the relationship building, the one-on-ones, and then also teaching a common language so that people feel personally invested. Does that make sense? Jeena Cho: [00:25:29] Yeah it does. The follow-up question I have for you is just the way that law firms are structured, there's this constant pressure to bill. That's one of the things that I keep hoping that law firms will fix, but of course that's not the case. Time is so scarce, especially for busy lawyers, so how do the lawyers go about finding the time to hear the stories of others that they work with, so that there is this sense that everyone has a place in the firm and that there is a sense of belonging? Michelle Wimes: [00:26:12] Yeah, that's such a great question. And I think that if it doesn't happen in the normal course of work, maybe you're not assigned to work with a particular partner that you really want to get to know better, I think you have to look for other opportunities. For instance, is there a pro-bono matter that has come in through the firm that you can ask that particular lawyer to supervise you on? So it gives you the opportunity to be down in the trenches together and working on a matter, even if it's not a billable matter it gives you that opportunity to get to know someone. Maybe it's instead of going to.. Because a lot of times this is what happens with our baby lawyers, we'll have these big firm retreats, which we do every single year. And they'll just be overwhelmed because we bring all 900 of our lawyers together. It's a fabulous opportunity to really get to know other lawyers and other offices and another practice group. And I tell my baby lawyers, you need to be very strategic when we have these firm-wide events. You need to reach out to people ahead of time and say, hey I'd like to get together with you at the retreat (and the retreat always has a jam-packed schedule). But if you can say hey, can we do coffee or can we do drinks or can we meet, I just want to pick your brain for 15-20 minutes. Find the opportunity and be strategic and intentional about getting on somebody's radar. And most of the time, nine times out of ten no one, especially here at Ogletree because we know that 50% of our business in one office comes from another office, no one office is just self-sufficient in and of itself. So our cross-marketing and cross-selling are really big within our firm. So if you say hey, I want to chat with you about doing more work with you. Or there's a particular client that I'm interested in, I would love to have your perspective. People are going to meet; they will meet with you, they will allow you to pick their brains. So I think it's finding those discrete pockets of time, whether it's through a pro-bono matter, whether it's through meeting folks at a retreat, or maybe it's getting involved in the different initiatives, the different community and philanthropy initiatives that the firm is involved in, or the diversity efforts. We sponsor a lot of different national affinity groups, like The National Bar, The National Hispanic Bar, The National Asian Pacific American, NAPABA, and the South Asian Pacific American Bar. So we go to those events, we go to those conferences, and we are always encouraging our lawyers to network there and for the lawyers that we're sending there, to get to know each other better. So I think there are lots of different opportunities, even though we are busy. It's just a matter of taking advantage of those opportunities. Jeena Cho: [00:29:10] Yeah, yeah. Great. Michelle Wimes: [00:29:11] Yeah I do want to mention Jeena, there's another tool that we recently developed that I think your listeners might be interested in. It's called the Diversity Action Plan, DAP for short. This is one example, we've asked our lawyers at the beginning of this year to commit to doing 5 to 7 different daily or weekly or monthly, really we want 5 to 7 actions that they have taken over the course of a year, but if they can do it daily, monthly that would be awesome. But 5 to 7 things, whether it's reading and learning something, whether it's watching something, attending an event. And we give them specific examples of things that they can do to support diverse lawyers in the firm, to support diversity in the legal profession generally, to support our diversity initiatives. And so it's a way again for that personal investment in diversity and inclusion to come to fruition. So we asked them things like read about the American Bar Association's Resolution 113 and understand why certain clients are committed to supporting a diverse and inclusive legal profession, right? So read about that, understand it. We have asked them to do things like watch Verna Myers, her TED talk. She has a TED talk on how to overcome biases and walking boldly toward them. There's another TED Talk, The Danger of a Single Story. I don't know if you watched that one with Chimamanda Adichie? She is wonderful, and she gives insight on how we judge someone just based on who we think that person is, based on their culture and based on where they're coming from. So she utilizes that whole concept of judging people by a single story in her TED talk. So we encourage them to watch that, or we say attend one of our BRG (business resource group) sponsored events; go recruit at one of our career fairs. We go to 7 or 8 different minority career fairs throughout the country, be one of the lawyers that go to that career fair and helps to recruit diverse attorneys to the firm. [00:31:25] So we give them a lot of different activities that they can do, and this is really for I would have to say the white men in many cases. Because a lot of times they come to me and they say, well what can I do to help you? What can I do to further the diversity efforts in the firm? I don't know what I can be doing. So this DAP is meant to give them a list of concrete things that they can do to help themselves, to educate themselves, to educate others to learn what clients want. And then at the same time, to help bring diversity into the firm and help grow diversity once it is in the firm. Jeena Cho: [00:32:04] I love that, I love that bite-sized daily practice of getting to know your own blind spots, and also an action item where you can go out and be an ally. Yeah, I really love that. That's so great. Michelle Wimes: [00:32:22] Thank you. Yeah, that was just one of the concrete things we came up with this year that we thought of, our Diversity and Inclusion Steering Committee. It's a pilot project and I think that so far it's been really well-received. And one other thing, well there's a couple of other things but one thing I'll mention. In my former firm we also had what we called a buy-in subcommittee or task force, and it's something that I'm thinking about implementing here (we haven't gotten around to that yet). It was a group of powerful partners, most of them were white males and white females, who when we were wanting to roll out a new initiative or a new program, or we wanted to get buy-in from firm middle managers and practice group leaders, office heads, things like that. We would go and bounce these ideas off of this buy-in subcommittee and get their feedback, re-frame it or re-tool it if it needed to be re-framed or re-tooled. And then we tasked them with going out and helping us to create buy-in and helping to advocate or sway others to adopt the new policy, or implement whatever initiative or program we were putting into place. Jeena Cho: [00:33:41] That's great. And it's not like diversity and inclusion is something can do once and go oh, I went to that diversity and inclusion training, now I'm perfect at it. It's a practice and I think that's such an important thing to remember; that it's a journey and it's a practice, and none of us are free from implicit or probably explicit bias. I think it's about getting to know our own blind spots, and also sharing our privilege with others and making sure that we don't slam the door behind us when we walk through it. Michelle Wimes: [00:34:22] Right. And I think there's a piece that people don't talk about as much, it's the measuring piece. What I like to do is use our lawyer's competitive nature to help with the measurement piece. So you know that the diversity metrics really tell a story, and you can look at the metrics and you can see, how many attorneys of color have we recruited this year? How many have come in through the door to actually be hired? Then fast forward a year later, three years later, five years later, how many of those attorneys are still with us? Are there practice groups where we're losing attorneys, attorneys of color or women, are there offices in particular, where we're losing a particular subset or group of folks? So if you supply the practice group leaders and office heads with those kinds of metrics and statistics, those people who feel like diversity is a touchy-feely thing and want to stay as far away from it as possible because it's too loosey-goosey to them, but they like numbers. So if you can give people objective numbers and objective metrics and say look, in this particular office you've lost five diverse attorneys in the last two years. What's going on here? And when we look at other offices in your region, these offices are doing much better and they have lost zero or they have lost one. [00:35:53] And so that competitive nature of oh my goodness, what's going on in my office? Or what's going on in my practice group as opposed to other practice groups? So sometimes it's utilizing that natural competitive nature that we have as lawyers to get them to focus on an issue objectively, and then to say okay what strategies do we need to put in place to make sure that we stem this attrition or that turnover is not happening? Jeena Cho: [00:36:21] That's fantastic. Michelle, before I let you go one final question to you. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Michelle Wimes: [00:36:34] Oh my gosh. You know, I think to be a resilient lawyer it really means your ability to recover from setbacks. I think that every lawyer that I know, including myself, has had professional and personal setbacks. And I think being resilient is how do you adapt well to change, how do you keep going in the face of adversity? Because we're all going to have adversity, we're all going to have setbacks. And when I think about.. recently the ABA came out with a path toward your well-being report. And in that well-being report, they talked about thriving across six or seven life dimensions. And they talked about your occupation, your emotional health, intellectual health, your physical health, emotional and spiritual. I think of being resilient as each one of those different areas; how are you living, how are you making healthy and positive choices? How are you ensuring that your quality of life is such that you are thriving across all of those dimensions, in spite of the setbacks, in spite of the adversity that you may face. And that really means knowing who you are, being self-aware, and being able to adjust when you need to. When you have to adjust, accepting what that reality is but having the belief and having the optimism to know that you can recover, and that you will recover. Sometimes I think people get so negative and so focused on the bad things that are happening, but I think it's important to be optimistic. I think it's important to find meaning across all of those dimensions, and to really be able to bounce back when you encounter those kinds of problems and setbacks. Jeena Cho: [00:38:44] Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with me today. I really appreciate it. Michelle Wimes: [00:38:51] Thank you. Thank you for having me Jeena. You are doing amazing, important work and I am so happy to have been part of your podcast today. Thank you for having me. Closing: [00:39:05] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Jared Correia on to talk about looking at our law firms from the business aspect and how to grow them without driving ourselves insane. Jared Correia is the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. A former practicing attorney, Jared has been advising lawyers and law firms for over a decade. He is a regular presenter at local, regional and national events, and he regularly contributes to legal publications, including his columns for Attorney at Work and Lawyerist. Jared is also the host of The Legal Toolkit podcast on Legal Talk Network. Topics Covered How law school doesn't teach us to be entrepreneurial as lawyers, and how change management is hard on law firms. Jared talks on how he specifically helps lawyers to overcome that. How law firm managers can better focus on the business aspect when there is a constant overwhelm of new technology and financial burdens. The positive effects of appropriate delegation on the small law firm owner, from differentiating yourself from others and content marketing. He also talks on general time management tips. As a business owner, including the owner of a small law firm, you need to be able to bounce back from failure. Jared talks on how to manage that and what that looks like. What he does in his personal life to maintain his sanity as a business owner, and what we should adopt to help better protect ourselves from burnout. Find out more on Jared at: Red Cave Legal Twitter Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Jared Correia: [00:00:01] And I think a lot of what lawyers get stuck on their headspace is okay, I've got to get clients and I've got to crank out the substitive work, and I don't have time for anything else. But business management techniques are just like anything else, you just have to take the time to learn them and figure out what you're doing. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm delighted to have Jared Correia, he is the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. He is a former practicing attorney, and Jared has been advising lawyers and law firms for over a decade. He is a regular presenter at local, regional, and national events, and he regularly contributes to legal publications, including his column for Attorney at Work and Lawyerist. Jared is also the host of The Legal Toolkit podcast on Legal Talk Network. [00:01:14] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation to help you work with loneliness. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes, .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? [00:01:45] Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more or check out the show notes. And with that, here's Jared. Jared, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Jared Correia: [00:02:01] Hey, thanks. I'm very excited to be here. And yes, make time for mindfulness everybody. So true. Jeena Cho: [00:02:07] Also, I wanted to have Jared on the show because not only is he my coach, but my husband (who is also my law partner) also uses him. So I wanted to have you on to just share your wisdom and your knowledge with the listeners. But before we get started, why don't we just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do? Jared Correia: [00:02:28] Yeah it's a family affair, right? So I have a business management consultant for law firms for the last ten years. I had previously worked for the State of Massachusetts, and currently I have a private firm where I help lawyers with technology, financial management, and marketing decisions, and I also have several bar associations I work with on a contract basis, and have been more regularly. And for more information you can check out my website, which is redcavelegal.com. Was that 30 seconds? I hope so. Jeena Cho: [00:03:07] Great. So to get started, I think there's such a disconnect between what they teach you in law school and the actual practice of law, and you talk a lot about having an entrepreneurial mindset. Tell us what you mean by that, and why it is that lawyers aren't naturally entrepreneurial. Jared Correia: [00:03:26] I should say that law school is getting better about teaching lawyers about business management, but it's still not great. And I think lawyers are just not great at business management because they were never taught it. Like if you get an MBA, you learn how to run a business. But when you're in law school, generally speaking the whole curriculum is focused on substitive legal work, and that's great to turn you into a lawyer who can practice law, but that's not great at turning you into a lawyer who can practice business. And it's a totally different mindset, to run a business than it is to work for somebody. You've got to be resilient, there's a lot of highs and lows, you got to be on top of things constantly. There's not a day where you can take an afternoon off and go on Amazon and shop for stuff; you've always got to be gunning for the next client. And you have to potentially manage other people too, which is difficult for many folks to do. And sometimes you have to do that coming right out of law school, or without a whole lot of experience doing it, and that's a really difficult part of it. The places I see lawyers falling on their faces who could be managing businesses better but are not, are the ones who don't want to take the time to learn. business management techniques. And also, taking the time to learn how to manage people. Especially if you're going to grow a law firm and the idea is to be bigger than a solo shop at one point, you really need to figure out how to leverage staff. And that's a hard thing to do. Jeena Cho: [00:04:47] Yeah. How does one go about learning any of that stuff? Jared Correia: [00:04:53] Well of course, you want to talk to somebody who is a really good business consultant. But outside of that, a lot of it's trial and error honestly and figuring out as you go, and trying to do as much research as possible. I think knowledge is power with a lot of this stuff, and there's information available online. So if have time to sit down and watch YouTube videos or read articles about how other people have done it, that's helpful. If you can find a mentor who's an attorney who has the kind of practice that you want to have, then that's another way to figure these things out. Sit down and talk to somebody, or go into their office for a day and see how they manage their practice. Sit in on a staff meeting and see how that's run, ask people to show you who have successful law firms how they run the back end of their office. Do they use a case management system, do they use tasks and workflows, how do they delegate work? All that stuff can be really helpful and can be learned, it just takes some time. And I think a lot of what lawyers get stuck on in their headspace is okay I've got to get clients and I've got to crank out the substitive work, and I don't have time for anything else. But business management techniques are just like anything else, you just have to take the time to learn them and figure out what you're doing. And a lot of lawyers don't want to put in a time, they just want to be told what to do. Jeena Cho: [00:06:05] Right. Well and law school is really good at training you to do that, just to be a follower and do what they tell you to do. And then you graduate and it's like wait, there's no more script. No one's going to give me a syllabus and a homework assignment. Jared Correia: [00:06:18] Yeah exactly; there's no script, no syllabus. That's a good way to look at it. You have to learn by doing, and law schools have not traditionally been great at teaching people that. Jeena Cho: [00:06:27] Yeah and also to go along with that, there is just so many frequent changes and upheavals that is inherent in starting your own business. So thoughts about how you can cope with that or just become more resilient? Jared Correia: [00:06:42] Yeah and I'm sure this is a topic you talk about regularly and well, but that's the thing. If you've got a job, you know you're being paid every two weeks. If you have a business, it's not that way. And what law firms, especially starting law firms should think about, is that even very successful law firms have lines of credit they can borrow against. Because realistically, you could make $20 one month and $30,000 the next month. So you've got to figure out how you're going to manage those ebbs and flows of practice, and a lot of that is money-related. But the problem is, you can't let those money issues (and they're not real issues, just how a business is run) overwhelm your thinking and make bad decisions based on that. You need to be even-keeled; you need to always look at the long view. And the problem is, a lot of attorneys don't project for this type of stuff. [00:07:35] So if you're setting up a practice and you're doing revenue projections for example, which a lot of attorneys don't do and which are relatively straight-forward to put together, you'll have a better sense of what your practice is going to make on a monthly basis, on an annual basis. And realizing that it's not going to be the same every year, every month, but you're going to consistently hit the marks hopefully, help. Because it gives you some clue as to what you're doing. You've kind of got goals, whereas otherwise you're just swimming against the tide. And that's tough to do. So I think the main issue for law firms, especially those starting out, but even law firms that have been around for a while, is beating back this idea that your doors are going to close because you have a bad month. Everybody's had a bad month, and the likelihood is that you're going to have a good month following it up. And I hear this from entrepreneurs all the time and it's true because I have my own business as well - just when you think your business is crashing and burning, you'll get a couple client e-mails or you'll get a couple of phone calls for referrals. It almost always happens that way. And if you can weather the storm of the first one to three years, you're far more likely to be successful and your percentages of closing down that business go way, way down after that. So really it's just trying to be even-keeled, sticking to a plan, and working that plan over the course of years. And it's not going to happen overnight, which I think a lot of people think it might. Jeena Cho: [00:08:57] Right. And also I think as you become more experienced, you start to have less of those panicked moments. Like I remember when we first started LC Law Group, the phone wouldn't ring one day and I would be like, oh my gosh we're never going to get a new client, we're going to go homeless, we'll have to shut down our business, we'll have to go back to the old law firm. And now it's like, ok there are just slower months during the year. Like winter is always a bad time for filing for bankruptcy, no one wants to go through the holidays filing for bankruptcy you know? Jared Correia: [00:09:34] And the sooner you can get away from my thinking like, I'm going to be living under a bridge next month, the better. Jeena Cho: [00:09:40] Yeah, exactly. And I think that's also where that mindfulness practice really comes in handy, because you start to see the errors of your own thinking and you can learn to manage all of those internal anxieties. Jared Correia: [00:09:53] Oh absolutely. If you can stay away from the self-sabotaging behavior, it helps tremendously. And if you can focus reasonably on what the reality of the situation is, not the negativity you're throwing down on it, the better. And I agree, that mindfulness is a good way to center yourself. As you know very well, probably better than anyone. Jeena Cho: [00:10:14] So technology.. You know, I feel like I am constantly bombarded by all of these different technology companies. And they're like, I can help you do this thing! And part of me is like, well but I don't really need that thing, what do I really need that thing for? And it just feels so overwhelming, even something like finding a practice management software. There are so many of them, and I'm sort of like do we really need one? So thoughts about how to manage the overwhelm of the available technologies out there, and how to go about smartly selecting the ones you're actually going to use, that are appropriate for your practice? Jared Correia: [00:10:49] You're certainly not alone. Most of the people I talk to, one of their big issues is how do I choose technology? And the case management example is one that is particularly apropos, because there's probably 250-300 case management software's out there, it's insane. There are some industry leaders of course, but there are just a lot of them. And the other thing too is that this is not the end, this is just the beginning. Legal technology is still a pretty nascent field, and there are some genres of technology that legal hasn't even really explored yet. Like there are very few legal CRM's, or customer relationship management software's out there. I suspect there will be more. [00:11:31] So what you're seeing is attorneys who already feel overwhelmed, with more entries into this field every day. So you really need to take your time to manage the technology and choices you make for your law firm. And this is another thing that relates to okay how do you manage your business? Well, you have to take the time to do it. A lot of attorneys will Google technology for five minutes and they're like that looks like a good product, I'll buy that. And then it's a flaming disaster, and three months later they're like this sucks and all of technology sucks, so I'm going to go back to the Stone Age and I'm going to be faxing everything. I have those conversations quite a bit as well. [00:12:09] So I think what you want to do is not purchase the technology until you need it. And in terms of needing it, is a pain-point related to it? So let's talk about a case management software, for example. I tell people, if you want to keep your overhead low just keep a spreadsheet of your clients. Until it becomes painful for you to keep the spreadsheet for your clients. What does that mean? You find you're getting behind on administrative stuff, you find you are having trouble doing conflict checks. You find you're having trouble finding things related to client information. Once those things start to happen, you're going to get in trouble if you don't have a higher level of technology you can use. So at that point, it's good to get into a case management software. [00:12:53] And then I'd look at three to five options and extensively vet them, including about technology and data security. Because that's an important topic for lawyers as well. So that's how I would approach it, when you feel like you are overwhelmed about a task, look for technology to solve for that task. And then if technology is not the only solution you need to use, then look for people to help you. And then you're talking about contractors or employees who can also use the technology you're now going to apply for your office generally. And the advantages like, you've got so many cloud-based software's now. And from now until 10 years ago, you would never be able to get into a system or a case management software for less than $5,000 up front. Now you can get into a system like that for $10 a month. So the pain points can be a little less painful, because you can get into the software more quickly because the costs are flattened and predictable. Jeena Cho: [00:13:54] I think the next big thing (aside from office management) that lawyers struggle with is marketing. And you know, I struggle with marketing and have this feeling like if I'm really good at what I do, do I really need marketing? What do you say to that? Jared Correia: [00:14:12] Yes that's a perfect evolution, because that's a mistake a lot of lawyers make, The lawyers are always like, I went to law school and I learned to be a good lawyer who manages substitive legal work, and that should be enough, right? Like everybody should come to me. But that's not the case, because when you look at states that have high legal populations, like I'm in one in Massachusetts and you're in another California, the problem is okay you want to find a good bankruptcy attorney? Well throw a stone, there are 20. So you have to differentiate yourself from everybody else. So how do you do that? I think one of the ways you do that is you consistently talk about what you do well. And it doesn't necessarily have to be salesy, it can be very natural. Think about what your client's main issues are. So maybe you know that your clients generally come to you with three or four major problems. So write about those problems or speak about those problems. And there are so many publication methods out there now that it's really easy to engage this type of content marketing. Which is essentially advertising yourself, but also offering some free advice that is not giving away the house. What do I wear to court, how do I file bankruptcy, what type of bankruptcy should I file, that type of thing. You've got to be thinking about, what long-tail search terms are people using online to answer these questions? And you want to write for those. [00:15:33] That could be the title of your blog post or your video. You need to repurpose as well. So that can be the title of a blog post and then you turn it into a video also. Now you get two pieces of content on two different channels, that if someone explores that topic online they're going to be able to find something that links to you and you're going to be more relevant than other people who not writing about those things. And this is different than doing a standard paperclip campaign, where people are mostly focusing on shorter phrases or single words. This is a way to get after people who ask specific questions and they're searching in places that are not necessarily Google or Bing, not that anyone really searches on Bing. But if they're on Facebook or LinkedIn, you can publish this stuff broadly. And it's free to do, it just takes a lot of sweat equity. So I guess I jumped in and answered the question about how to do this, but I think step one is you talk, speak, and write about things that are related to your practice and problems that your clients have, and then you publish those items as widely as possible. Jeena Cho: [00:16:37] Well that gets me to this question of time management, because we have so many things that we have to do. I mean we obviously have to service our clients and do that very well, and then we also have to market and we have to be an entrepreneur and run our business. And especially when it comes to marketing. I was just reading some blog post and it was like, "Why Every Lawyer Should be on Instagram," and I was like no, I just don't think every lawyer needs to be on Instagram. So I have these conversations all the time, like how much social media should lawyers actually engage in? Because all of these things have a cost to them, right? Whether it's money or time. So thoughts how to prioritize your time so that you make space for these things that you need to do, but also figuring out what it is that you should be focusing your time on. Do you have thoughts about how to structure your day or general time management tips? Jared Correia: [00:17:37] Just between you and me, some lawyers should definitely not be on Instagram. But that's the thing, there are so many channels now out there. There are social media channels for business people, there are social media channels that you use for family stuff which sometimes bleeds into business. There are these video platforms, there are these photo platforms. It's overwhelming. So if I go into a law firm for example, and tell a lawyer to do these 15 things, they're going to do exactly zero of those things. So I like to focus on 1 to 3 campaigns at one time. I found in my practice and personally in the work I do and the attorneys I work with, is that it's not overwhelming as long as you keep it to one to three things per quarter. [00:18:22] So for example, what we were just talking about. So for this quarter you want to do a blog post a week, and then you want to post it to Twitter, and then you want to revise your LinkedIn profile. Alright, that's what you're doing for the next three months. That's it, don't get distracted. Don't chase another shiny object and just do those things, and then after that quarter is done see if those are still viable things that you should do, or if you want to move on. And if you want to implement those things moving forward and say you dropped one or two, pick up another two things to do for the next quarter. But I think proceeding like that is really helpful, because you don't get overwhelmed. And in terms of social media as an example, yeah there are like 50 different channels you could use. So I tell attorneys, make one your primary channel and then populate information by others. And there are these management tools for social media, for example. And I'll just tell you how I do it. [00:19:17] So I'm very active on Twitter, have been for years. Wrote the ABA book on that subject, so that's my primary channel on social media. So I have a publication schedule for Twitter, I repurpose all my stuff through there, and then if I'm posting things on other systems like LinkedIn or Google Plus, I don't have an Instagram account yet I'm probably one of those people who shouldn't have an Instagram account. You just repurpose from the main one, and you say oh that's a cool article let me repost that to my LinkedIn. And do it that way, and then it does feel less overwhelming. And then if you've got a major publishing engine, and again Twitter is mine, I publish more frequently to that than to others. And I think that's fine as well. So pick a main channel, set up subsidiary channels, and derive the content that you're placing on your subsidiary of channels for your main channels. And I think that helps too, in terms of time-management. Jeena Cho: [00:20:08] Yeah, and there are lots of different programs out there that will cross-post things for you. Like I use Buffer, that's what I use. And it'll post things on different schedules to all the different platforms, and I find that that just makes it a lot easier rather than to log in to LinkedIn and post it there, and then go over to Facebook and post it there. Jared Correia: [00:20:30] Scheduling is great. And people always tell me, I'm talking to you right now and you just posted something online. And I'm like yeah, that's because I did it like three days ago. And people are still staggered by that, and I'm sure you run into the same thing. It's like, you too can schedule posts online. It's great. Jeena Cho: [00:20:46] Yes, it is great. Or they'll be like, I thought you were on a retreat? I was on a retreat. It happens magically, automatically. Jared Correia: [00:20:57] My time management could be better, because I'm clicking through e-mails as I'm recording your podcast and you're about to murder me. So I need to work on that a little. But that's one reason why I don't have a smartphone, because when I'm out meeting with people or I'm hanging out with my kids at the playground or whatever, I don't want to be distracted all the time. So one of the ways I combat that is I don't give myself access to those things, at certain points. Jeena Cho: [00:21:32] Well I think in every business, as well as just in general in life, there will be obstacles and challenges and failures. How do you deal with that? Jared Correia: [00:21:44] I try to look at the process more than the result. And I know that sounds crazy, I know most people are totally results-focused. If I have a process in place and something doesn't work out exactly the way I want it to, I'm comfortable with that because I felt like I took the time to do it right. To be able to think of things in that way, you have a notion that things not going to go perfectly every time and you're not going to have a 100% hit rate in business; it's just never going to happen. And that's okay. It's okay to step back and reassess things or not move forward on something because it wasn't working out. If you look at professional baseball, you get 3 hits out of 10 at bat you're a success. And I think for a lot of small businesses it's the same way. Once you find out what your bread and butter is, that's great and then you can experiment outside of that. But not every experiment you take is going to be successful. So I think focus on the process, focus on being thoughtful about what you're doing, and then don't just throw that failure into a bucket and be done with it. Analyze it and see what didn't work, and you never know. You could rehash it later on at a different time, tweak what you were doing a little bit, and it might be successful. Maybe you were a little bit ahead of the curve, maybe you a little bit behind the curve. [00:23:03] But you don't know unless you take the time to analyze it. And that's fine, but it doesn't mean you stop taking swings. And eventually, if you've got the process right I think you're going to hit on results more often than not. But do take the time to analyze why something failed or why something is successful, and you can use it next time. And also, you never know. I'm very bad (or good, depending on your outlook) about taking every call or e-mail that comes into me. I always talk to somebody or respond to somebody, because you never know what's going to happen. So I think there are potentially opportunities within things that you would label failures, that might work out in the long run. Maybe you try something different, but you end up meeting a great referral source that you never would have if you had not done something like that. [00:23:47] I think it also tracks back to business owners being comfortable taking chances. Creating a business is a real risk, especially in this economy. And just because you have one successful endeavor or one successful niche practice that's working for you doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to take risks anymore. You don't want to push the risk out of your profile, because it might cause your practice to stagnate. And that's the last thing you want. Jeena Cho: [00:24:15] Right, yeah. And also, I'm obviously like a lot of people, risk adverse and I don't like to have failure. But I took a class on design thinking, and it really changed how I view failure. Because in design thinking, you never think about failures as like, oh this didn't work. It's always an opportunity for learning, and also an opportunity to gather data. So you take that data and you repurpose and you iterate, and come up with the next prototype. So I think if you can look at it in terms of like, I'm gathering more data and I'm just running an experiment rather than I'm a failure as a human being. Because I think that's what often happens, we internalize these "failures". So if you can adjust your thinking in terms of, oh I failed at this, now I suck at this and I'm a terrible lawyer. Like no, I ran an experiment, it didn't work. Let me gather some data so I can figure out what I can do differently next time. Jared Correia: [00:25:16] And that's a great way to look at it. Yeah, the design thinking idea is great. I also use software terminology when I talk about this, sometimes I'll say this is my beta or this is my alpha, or this is a skunkworks project that I'm working on that nobody really knows about that I'm testing it out. And I think if you can think of it that way, that's great because software companies, design companies, they don't think of failure in the same way that business owners do, traditional business owners. And then you're completely right about this notion that people feel like, I failed at "X" part of my business or "X" experiment within my business, so I'm a terrible person and I failed my family. That happens, and the quicker you can get over that, the more you get back into running your business effectively. You can't let that drag you down for a day or an hour, because you've lost time moving on to the next thing. Jeena Cho: [00:26:07] Yeah. What are your thoughts on helping people maintain their sanity as business owners? Jared Correia: [00:26:15] Good question, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I think you need an outlet. Mindfulness is a great outlet for example, and all the things associated with that, like yoga. If I could do yoga, that would be great. But I've almost died doing yoga several times, so maybe that's not what I do. Exercise good though. If you can get on a regular exercise schedule, that's helpful. If not on a daily basis, at least regularly with a system and a plan. That helps you get stress out. If you don't have a way to get your stress out, you're going to carry that over into the work, you're going to carry that over to your family, and you're not going to be particularly effective. Jeena Cho: [00:26:54] Yeah, I think putting yourself first and caring about your own well-being is really, really important for not only being a good lawyer, but a good business owner, good family member. All of the things you do in life. Jared Correia: [00:27:08] I also try to differentiate between work and hobbies. I think people don't necessarily do that, especially lawyers. People are always looking to gain new revenue, and I think lawyers are always thinking what's the next thing I can do that can make me money? But I think it's okay sometimes to do something that doesn't make you money, just because you enjoy doing it. I don't know if it's scrimshaw, I don't know if it's woodworking, I don't know if it's writing the great American novel. But whatever it is, take some time out to do it. [00:27:36] And the last thing I'll say on this is, I often tell people the problem with a lot of lawyers too is they work seven days a week and they never give themselves a break. So once a week, take a day off. A full day and don't do work from midnight to midnight, and then get back after it and catch your breath. Oftentimes attorneys and small business owners don't give themselves a chance to do that. Jeena Cho: [00:27:58] Yeah, totally. And that's a recipe for chronic stress and anxiety and burnout. [00:28:03] Well before I ask you my final question, for the people that want to learn more about you and your work, what are some of the best places for them to do that? Jared Correia: [00:28:15] Oh yeah. Let me say two places: I said my website before, and that's a great place to go. I have a lot of information there, it tells you everything I do. RedCaveLegal.com. And as I said, I'm also very active on Twitter. Most of the stuff I do, I'll post on there. And that's at Twitter.com/JaredCorreia. Just my name, Jared Correia. Yes, I have three vowels at the end of my name, my kids and my wife complain about it constantly. Such is my life. Jeena Cho: [00:28:53] And all of that information will be in the show notes. And my final question to you is this: the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Jared Correia: [00:29:01] Oh, that's a really good question. I think a resilient lawyer is somebody who can strike out on their own, build a practice from scratch as a solo attorney; those are the lawyers I have a lot of respect for. And you can maintain that over the course of years and not be overwhelmed by viewing themselves as potential failure or imposters, which happens a lot for lawyers. So I think a resilient lawyer is somebody runs a successful practice and has a healthy psychological profile. Jeena Cho: [00:29:30] Great response. Thank you so much Jared for joining me today, I really appreciate it. Jared Correia: [00:29:36] My pleasure, this was really fun. I'm glad we could do it. Closing: [00:29:42] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Demetria Johnson on to talk about diversity and evolving the talent pool. Demetria Johnson is a diversity professional with expertise in global and U.S. diversity and inclusion initiatives, women's initiatives, and talent strategy. As a pioneer in the legal community, she has served in numerous leadership roles with notable legal organizations such as The Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals, NALP, Leadership Council on Legal Diversity, and Washington Area Legal Administrators Association. She is a frequent speaker at conferences focused on women's initiatives, mentoring, leadership, and professional development. Topics Covered How she found herself in this line of work, and how she attributes her success to her natural people skills. She also talks on what lens she has to look through when it comes to diversity and inclusion with law firms. What is diversity tax/tokenism within law firms, and how this can be seen as covert racism or doing the bare minimum to seem inclusive is insensitive. She also offers strategies or tools that diverse attorneys can do to "find their sea legs." She touches on her perspective of the culture of diversity and inclusion, and how well-being and a sense of belonging stem from allowing others to speak without fear of shame or feeling like their voice matters less. What evolving the talent pool looks like, and how to start having that conversation in a larger scale to redefine one of the least racially diverse professions in the nation. Find out more and connect with Demetria at: Twitter LinkedIn Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Demetria Johnson: [00:00:00] In an environment where you are again trying to find your fit for lawyers of color, it's much harder than it is for their non-diverse counterparts. Diversity is not only my vocation, it's my avocation. Intro: [00:00:19] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Demetria Johnson. She is a diversity professional with expertise and global and U.S. diversity and inclusion initiatives, women's initiatives, and talent strategy. As a pioneer in the legal community, she has served in many leadership roles with notable legal organizations such as The Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals, NALP, Leadership Council on Legal Diversity, and Washington Area Legal Administrations Associations. She is a frequent speaker at conferences focused on women's initiatives, mentoring leaderships, and professional development. Demetria, thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate you taking the time. Demetria Johnson: [00:01:29] Jeena, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor and a privilege to be able to share this podcast and share this space with you and your audience from The Resilient Lawyer, so thank you. Jeena Cho: [00:01:43] Thank you. So maybe we can start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Demetria Johnson: [00:01:51] Sure. So as you said so eloquently in my bio, I am a diversity and talent strategist who has had the good fortune to share that space with global and U.S. expertise for several different law firms. So I find myself as a change agent, a thought leader, and an advocate for the members of the diversity arena and under-represented groups here and abroad. Jeena Cho: [00:02:32] How did you come to do this work? What's your background? Demetria Johnson: [00:02:35] My background actually started in the customer service area many, many moons ago. And through that, people skills is something that I've always had such a knack for. From the early days of being a lifeguard to working in customer service for county government, and then going into the financial area. And while I was working for a bank, I had the opportunity to join a law firm. It's now one of the Top AmLaw 100 Law Firms. And that experience, I started at the ground up. So I left the financial market to try something different, and because of my experience it seemed to work well with my personality and my background in customer service, and I jumped right in and had a knack for it. And I think it's more of my personality as a type A person that I worked well with lawyers. So that's how it evolved organically, and then through that I got more and more experience. And working with the lawyers that I work with, I found myself being engaged with the diversity market. So that's how I became a diversity professional as well. Jeena Cho: [00:04:13] Great. I always think it's such huge shoes to fill, whenever you are the director of diversity and inclusion for a firm with hundreds and hundreds of different people who are all going to come to the table with different perspectives, different life experiences. So when you think about diversity and inclusion in the context of law firms, what's the lens that you come to that role with? Demetria Johnson: [00:04:47] As I said, I think most (well myself and my own opinion, for me and I would also say for a lot of my peers) come to it as a thought leader, an innovator, a change agent, and a champion; a champion in this mindset that champion that you're fighting for, those people of under-represented groups, people who don't have a voice. I say also, because at this time many of us are currently operating from a place of fear, and fear bringing our authentic self to work, in our personal life, fear seeking our full potential, and fear of the unknown. So I think that as we as diversity professionals are somewhat being known as again as those champions, or those who often at times are seen as the minority within the organizations that they're working. Jeena Cho: [00:05:59] Can you tell us a little bit about a diversity tax or tokenisms within law firms. I guess to start, what do you mean by diversity tax or tokenism? Demetria Johnson: [00:06:13] Sure. So recently, I presented with a couple of my colleagues, one who's in professional development and someone else who worked within law schools. And we did a presentation at the NALP Diversity Summit, and it was called "Don't Ask me to be Your Poster Child." And we came up with that because of the factor when you're looking at, we put it as sort of a true poster. When you have diverse associates who will let us use their photos over and over again on the website and brochures or will meet every diverse recruiting candidate. They'll also attend every diversity event, lead affinity groups, mentor other diverse lawyers, and be everything to everyone. So for example, the true definition as I say of tokenism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to do a particular thing, especially by recruiting a small number of people from under-represented groups. So it's otherwise known as covert racism, so it's defined as ambiguous because the perpetrator's actions are very indirect and often expressed through innuendos. And this was recently described by Haiku Hansen in a Huffington blog, and one of the other things that I've seen as it relates to what we see today (not only in law firms but also in the media) and Netflix I think does a good job of bringing to the forefront, biases in every day. Whether it's in your workplace, in your neighborhoods, in your communities or wherever. But Netflix released an original series "Dear White People." I don't know if you've seen that, where it's based on the acclaimed film of the same name. So this original series follows a group of students of color at Winchester University, and it's a predominantly white Ivy League college. And the students are faced with the landscape of cultural bias, social injustice, and misguided activism. And they take this through a slippery politics and sort of through an absurdist lens. [00:08:32] And the series' irony and self-deprivation provide brutal honesty and humor to highlight these issues. So as I was watching the second season, and within the first episode of that second season they had a clip, it was in the first 45 seconds I think of the second season. In that first episode where they were gathering the new incoming class to take a photo, and as the photographer gathered everyone together he made sure that he put the minority students (which were one or two) and the one student who had a disability in the front, to showcase and make it seem as though this white Ivy League school was very inclusive of diversity and culturally sensitive to that. However, as you went through that episode, later in the episode they showed where the white fraternity was hosting a blackface party. So it's sort of two-fold and how we look at today's post-racial society. Again, that's how I talk about the work that I do. You know, I reflect often on a workshop that was a huge "aha moment" for me, and it was conducted by Steven Young, who's a senior partner at InSight education systems and an author on micro-inequities and the power of small. And Steven provided the attendees at this workshop with the skills and techniques that could be used to improve the quality and productivity of daily interaction in the workplace and in law school environments. And in turn, it measurably raised diversity performance. So the workshop focused on the importance of analyzing the impact of underlying messages, which were showcased in this Netflix series, as well as through diversity tax at firms. [00:10:42] So some of this is called micro-messaging, as a part of any diversity inclusion initiative. He stressed that professionals should never underestimate the power of small, and the significant impact the small has on the commitment of performance and success of those around us. So we look at micro-messaging are the key to unlocking or shutting down potential, micro-advantages are positive micro-messages that have the power to unlock potential, while micro-inequities are negative micro-messages that have the power to shut down potential. So when we look at how all of this is played out in law firms, these taxes that we put on our diverse, LGBTQ, as well as the lawyers who have disabilities. We're doing this on a day-to-day basis; we're asking them to be our face and our brand ambassadors for activities. And you're especially seeing it more and more on new hires and new associates because they're the ones that are looking to get their "sea legs" more or less within the time they joined firms. So we presented this at this workshop, and we asked our peers to really think about how they, in turn, could turn this around within their organizations and look at ways to turn the tax into a reward. And think about how it can benefit the diverse lawyers, instead of creating problems for them down the road. Jeena Cho: [00:12:30] Yeah, and it seems like this problem is so multi-faceted because they're offering the tools and support for the diverse lawyers within a law firm, but also helping people within the law firm see that this is something that is happening. And I think sometimes you're just resistant to even acknowledging that this is what's happening. So what were some of the strategies that you offered or what are some of the tools or things that diverse attorneys themselves can do, so that they can find their sea legs as you put it? Demetria Johnson: [00:13:11] Sure. It's looking at giving credit hours and providing sponsorships, including opportunities and acknowledging and appreciating the work that they're doing. So for diverse attorneys, it's also seeking feedback from the individuals that they're working for. Everybody likes to be acknowledged for the work that they're doing, correct? So we want to make sure that they're out there seeking feedback that they need because, in an environment where you are again trying to find your fit in it (and especially in big law and for lawyers of color), it's much harder than it is for their non-diverse counterparts. So seeking sponsorships and we talked about seeking mentoring from the individuals within your practice groups, being inclusive; because diversity is not just counting, it's a culture. And finding a firm that matches the culture that you have, and being your own advocate as important as well. So if you're going to attend these events, make it to your benefit when you do it. So for instance, if the firm comes to you and wants you to participate in a recruiting event, ensure that it's your school that you're going to, to participate in. That way, you can help with the recruitment of individuals from your school or from your association, whether to be BALSA, APALSA, or OUTLAW. Find out what your affinity group is, and use it to your advantage in those ways. Jeena Cho: [00:15:09] Yeah, I think that's such a great suggestion. How about for the firm in general? So for everybody else at the law firm, what can they do to make their law firm a more inclusive place? What can they do to be as you said "champions," which I really love. I tend to just call them allies, but for the lawyers within the firm that are kind of looking around saying, hey I think we have a diversity and inclusion problem here. What can we do to make this place more inclusive, where people can truly feel that they can be home and feel that they can be free to be their authentic selves? Demetria Johnson: [00:15:50] Right, I think that's so true. It's important to have a culture where people can be their authentic self. And so I use that term before like you said, champion because you want to create that environment. So I feel where people can do that is to really sit back and listen. Because as Brene Myers said when I was working at a firm a few years ago, we were conducting an unconscious bias program and it was for all lawyers. And the first session of this training started with the leadership because it was important to start from the top down. And your champions, especially when you look at the leadership, leadership is going to be majority white in these major law firms. [00:16:49] So the one message that she tried to hone in and resonate with them is no shame, blame, nor heart attack when you have these conversations. And if you can start and get people to understand that everybody has a say, everybody has an opinion, you can bring more people to the conversation. And I say that because I try to live that also, you know diversity is not only my vocation it's my avocation as well, being a woman of color. So I say that in my everyday life; when I conduct conversations with people in my community, with people in my family, and with my friends. For instance, if I have a different view or belief of someone else, and someone will say to me, well how can you be friends with this person and they have a totally different view of what you do for your vocation? And I say, but that's the reason why; because everybody has a right to their own opinion and a voice to say what they want to say. So how can I stifle that opinion or their voice? I have to be someone who is not judge and jury, but someone who can listen to them. And if we all would open up and just sit and listen and utilize our listening skills... [00:18:33] As my good friend and colleague Kori Carew said on her podcast with you the other day, if we would invoke those listening skills and a sense of grace, we would be in a much better place. Even within our own communities, but also within law firms. Because oftentimes we're not listening to what people are saying and having open and meaningful conversations and communications. And I think that's where you bring champions in. Because after we had our unconscious bias training program, people were having more difficult conversations amongst themselves and in the room, because they felt that there was no shame, blame, or attack being held during that time. Jeena Cho: [00:19:31] Yeah, I really love that; No shame, blame, or attack. You know I find that it's one thing to say I'm going to show up to this conversation, and I'm going to show up with no shame, blame, or attack, and then the person just said something, right? I had this happen recently where I was interviewing someone, and I said, "I'm noticing that your entire team is white, male, and I want to know what your company policy is on diversity and inclusion." And he said, well diversity and inclusion are certainly important to us, but we're not going to lower our standards in hiring. And I felt so... I'm telling you this story now and I'm just feeling so angry. It makes my stomach turn and I just feel so angry, and I wanted to be like, "How dare you, how dare you say that!" But of course I have to keep my calm, and I just get so tired. And I'm sure you must have that sensation too, so thoughts on showing up and having that be your practice or your prayer; like please allow me to show up without shame, without blame and attack, but sometimes you feel attacked, you feel so unheard and unseen. So thoughts on that? Demetria Johnson: [00:20:58] Right, right, right. That's true, that's true. Because people also, I think you're right Jeena, people have to also see you. So if you don't see me, you can't hear me, and you're not going to listen to me. So how are you going to make them see you, without being as they say (and I'll use this because I am a black woman) the angry black woman. And be seen as the angry black woman, stomping my feet and raising my voice. And there are ways in which you can do that, for example, I had the opportunity to present diversity strategy and business plans to the executive board of one of the firms that I work with. Every six months, we would have the opportunity to present our diversity strategy. And I was glad that I had a voice or a seat at the table to be able to do that. I was attending one board meeting, and right before I went to the board meeting I received notice that an African-American, a black lawyer was leaving the firm. A young black lawyer, and also an LGBT lawyer was leaving the firm. [00:22:30] Now at this time in my role I was the Director of Diversity, but I had recruited these individuals from law school. And I remember thinking, sitting at my desk like five minutes before I was supposed to go up to this board meeting. And I felt such rage and such anger that they were leaving the firm. The same day, on the same day that morning I get the same notification. And I thought to myself, what are we doing wrong? What are we doing wrong? Now we applaud ourself when we're doing so many things right, but on the same day, I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I couldn't think beyond that e-mail that was in front of me. And I went up to the meeting and I had my notes and was ready to do my presentation. And as I presented to the board, I sat there. Now these are all the top stakeholders in the firm are in this room, and there is a room full of 20 people. And I'm sitting there and a conversation started, and one of the stakeholders brought up that this person was leaving. And at that time I guess I didn't have my poker face on. And one of them asked me what were my thoughts on this, and I took a little pause and I leaned forward and I said, "We're sitting here and we keep having this conversation over and over and over and over again. It's like the act of insanity, we keep doing the same thing over and over again, looking for something different." And I said I'm just frustrated. We talk about the numbers, we talk about what we're doing, how we're going to achieve a certain target for women and diverse lawyers, how to put them through a sponsorship program, how we're going to work on audits within our practice groups. But we're sitting here and we're talking about the same thing every time we have this discussion, the same thing. And they said, what do you propose? And I said, we need to have a conversation with those individuals and find out why they're leaving. And it may not have anything to do with the work that we're doing here, the work that they did here, the initiatives and the programs that we have going on. Because sometimes it's not necessarily saying that they (use that term, people) are dying on the vine, but it could be that sometimes people just don't want to stay in a law firm. And I said it could be non-diverse and diverse lawyers; sometimes we have to realize that people just don't want to stay, that's not their path to be partners. But if we're not having a conversation then we don't know, right? So going back to your original question, that was me having my, one of my colleagues in the international office called me up and I raced out of there and she said, "You had that Sheryl Sandberg moment - you leaned in." And I said I guess I did. [00:26:16] I didn't realize at that time, at that moment that that's what I was doing. But I think it was, as you were talking with your own experience, it was a moment of frustration that led me to that point. And after that, I was able to get people to see me and to hear me and to take into account thoughts on how we need to move the needle forward and think about what we were going to do. And it was the right room to have the conversation at that time because you had the right stakeholders there. And so things started to change at that moment, more people listened at that time. So I think that's the important factor, is having the people in the room; and that's how you create champions. And those naysayers and the non-choir members, that's how you bring them in. Once you can bring one, you know reach one teach one, once you bring one on and you teach them, you start to create a ripple effect. Jeena Cho: [00:27:25] Yeah, yeah I think that's such a great message. And I've been on various planning committees and things like that, and being a woman of color (and I'm sure you get this too) where they invite you because you're supposed to fix a diversity and inclusion issue for that conference, or whatever that group may be. And I've had those moments where I keep having these gentle conversations with people, and I always think it's such a win when on their own, without me prompting they'll look and say, this panel is lacking diversity. Maybe we should go out and reach out to some other folks, and I go YES! It's such a winning moment when it enters into people's ethos. Because I think if you're always in the majority it's a space in which you feel comfortable obviously, so you may not necessarily have that awareness or that mindful practice to be able to pause and say, who's NOT at this table? Who are the key stakeholders that should be here, and where are the voices that are missing? And I think that's such a wonderful practice to have as humans, you know? Like how do I create a space where I can be more inclusive and more welcoming of other people, and what does that practice look like on a day-to-day basis? Demetria Johnson: [00:28:56] I agree, I agree. And I think that especially given that law is one of the least racially diverse professions in the nation. I was doing some fact checking, you know the Bureau of Labor & Statistics for 2017 says that 89% of lawyers are white. So when you look at that statistic and look at the statistics of VAULT, which says out of that 90% of equity partners are white, even though one in four law firm associates is a person of color. Where is that experience for minority attorneys? It's based on their demographic group. So we have to, as a profession of diversity professionals, as a profession of lawyers, you are looking in lawyers of color. You are looking that you need champions who are of the majority. And I think Timothy Ryan has done a great job of putting together the coalition of CEO Action, which is forming CEO's of top corporations and a few law firms as well to come together and say what can we do to enhance diversity within our corporations, and enhance the pipeline of diversity? And by bringing together the CEO's and bringing together the diversity professionals, and that's one thing that I think is very important because you're looking at not just CEO's of law firms as I mentioned, but as corporations. And LCLD does a great job doing that as well, but this is starting much further down the pipeline. Like CEO Action is starting with the pipeline and bringing this bus, they call is The Blind Bus, to HBCU's. So they're working with presidents of HBCU's to start the conversation early, and it's about having that conversation. And when you look at the makeup of these CEO's, the majority of the CEO's again are white. So we've got to be able to come together and as I said in the beginning, many of us are operating in a place of fear. But we have to bring our authentic self to the conversation and have a conversation with the individuals who don't look like us. Because we'll die on the vine if we don't. Jeena Cho: [00:32:07] I totally agree with you. Maybe we can shift gears a little bit because as I'm talking to you it occurred to me that the work that you do is taxing for so many reasons. And I'm curious what you do to nourish yourself and to practice self-care. How do you get up every day and show up with that open mindset? Because I think it takes a lot of energy to show up to spaces and say, I'm going to show up and let go of shame, blame, and attack. And also tips that you might have for the listeners out there, just in terms of I feel like we're all constantly drinking from the firehose now, and I struggle with trying to find my sea legs or that sense of groundedness. Demetria Johnson: [00:33:07] Sure. So I would say that my peace comes from my relationship with my religion, so with God. That is the one thing that keeps me going, keeps me motivated, keeps me centered, keeps me focused. If I didn't have that relationship I think that I probably would be in a mental institution at some point, you'd find me wrapped up in a crazier place than I am some days, without that being my guide. And I think family helps me, and my friends help me stay centered. And I think wherever I find it, whether it's spiritual, whether it be working out, exercise, yoga; I wish I had more time to spend exercising. Also I'm a voracious reader, I like to read. And I like to travel whenever I can get a break, so anytime I can sort of release. [00:34:23] I have a friend who is the CEO and founder of Diversity, Flexibility & Alliance Group, which is an organization that is focused on flexibility and agile work and diversity. She does this great program on mindset and grit. One of the things is to just let your mind find a place where you can relax, and I think that's so important for lawyers and for the professionals. If we don't take time to provide self-care for ourselves, then we're no good for those that we're trying to help. And also my personal board is another; they sort of center me and focus me. Jeena Cho: [00:35:14] I love that, I love all these tools that you have in your toolbox for practicing self-care. Demetria, for the listeners that are out there that want to learn more about your work, where is the best place for them to do that? Demetria Johnson: [00:35:28] Sure, so I'm on Linked In and I'm also on Twitter @DemetriaRene. Jeena Cho: [00:35:38] Wonderful. And Demetria, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Demetria Johnson: [00:35:48] Being a resilient lawyer to me means putting on your body of armor each day as you approach the work that you do, for both your internal and external stakeholders and to focus on being your authentic self. Jeena Cho: [00:36:03] Demetria, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom. Demetria Johnson: [00:36:09] Jeena again, thank you for having me. And I appreciate you again and the work that we are doing, and I am thankful that we have this space where we can share this type of information. So thank you. Closing: [00:36:28] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
Hello! A short request for listener feedback. Doing a podcast can feel very lonely, like speaking into the void. Yet, there were almost 7,000 of you that listened last month! (Wow!) Please drop me an email and let me know what conversations you're wanting to hear. What "necessary conversations" aren't being had? Email: hello@jeenacho.com or use the form in this link: http://jeenacho.com/podcast/
In this episode, I am excited to have Kori Carew on to talk about awareness of how we interact with each other and the side effects of inactive interactions. Kori Carew is a community builder who generates awareness and understanding of critical human issues by creating the space for open dialogue that enables people to expand their perspective and drive positive change. She is a disruptor and social justice advocate that brings a keen sensitivity to belonging and inclusion across differences and creating space for the under-represented. Kori's drive toward redefining the circle of belonging fuels her work in her community. Topics Covered Practicing a higher level of listening where you are trying to connect with the other person in terms of values and understanding to see past bias and help to see each other for who we really are. Authenticity and covering in conversation in a world where we all have implicit bias from living in a world where we have the same stereotypes and myths about different groups of people. Self-care for women of color. Toll of bias and micro-aggressions on people of color and how we can better integrate mindfulness into our lives. Find out more and connect with Kori at: Twitter LinkedIn Instagram www.KoriCarew.com Kori Carew | TEDx | Just belonging: finding the courage to interrupt bias Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Check out this episode! Transcript Kori Carew: [00:00:04] Practicing a higher level of listening, where you are trying to connect with the other person in terms of values and in terms of understanding what they are saying. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Kori Carew. She is a community builder who generates awareness and understanding of critical human issues by creating a space and climate for open dialogue that is meaningful, enables people to expand their perspective, and drives positive change. Her drive towards redefining the circle of belonging fuels her work in the workplace, as well as in her community. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last couple of bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared very short, six-minute guided meditation practices to help you let go of stress and anxiety. [00:01:31] Also, I think it's really interesting there's a body of research which suggests that when we're more mindful, we are better able to listen to others. And so a lot of my conversation with Kori was around listening to another human being with empathy and compassion. And listening not only just to hear the words, but listening with your whole heart. And I certainly found that as my meditation practice deepens, my ability to listen without judgment and listen and have less knee-jerk reaction has certainly improved. And these are skills that we can practice, and of course what we practice becomes stronger. [00:02:18] So I invite you to check out Mindful Pause, which is a daily, six-minute mindfulness practice for lawyers. And it includes guided meditations as well as very practical ways of incorporating mindfulness and meditation into your daily life. You can head on over to JeenaCho.com. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com, again that's JeenaCho.com to learn more about the program. And with that, here's Kori. Welcome Kori Carew to The Resilient Lawyer podcast, I'm so happy to have you. Kori Carew: [00:02:53] I'm so happy to be here Jeena, so honored and thrilled to be having this conversation with you. Jeena Cho: [00:02:58] Let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do. Kori Carew: [00:03:03] Ah. I am a child of the world, one of those kids who grew up in a family that used to be referred to as a "United Nations family". I am an oldest daughter of four to a very West African family. I grew up in an area that was very, very diverse. I grew up in Niger, where there are over 300 different ethnic groups with different languages, traditions, cultures. I grew up on a university campus with people from all over the world. My family is multireligious, multiethnic, multiracial, multi a whole bunch of things. Half of my family is Muslim, half of my family is Christian. And I grew up as a Christian in a very conservative, some would say somewhat fundamentalist part of northern Nigeria. But, I am a mom, social activist, social advocate. I am first and foremost, I think of myself as an advocate called to speak for people who don't have a voice, for people who are marginalized and under-represented. [00:04:05] I am called to help people build bridges across differences, and to equip and empower women and marginalized people to succeed despite the challenges. So that's essentially what I do, whether it's at work or elsewhere. In my work, official paid work, what I really do is develop organizational solutions to help create a more inclusive and diverse workplace. I work with leadership to empower them to be more inclusive leaders and to interrupt bias. And essentially, I see my job as disrupting the status quo to create more equity and belonging. Jeena Cho: [00:04:46] I love that, I love all of that. And I just saw this wonderful TEDx talk that you did, which I will link to in the show notes. I think it's a wonderful talk about how do we start bridging the gap. And it just feels like at this particular moment in time that we're talking past each other often. And you give this wonderful example of saying, "This is my lived experience," and the other person says, well I too had a hard life. And feels like that's what we often do; as a woman of color you say, I was mistaken for the secretary, I was mistaken for the defendant, I was mistaken for the court reporter. And then the white male lawyer says, well I may not have had any of those experiences, but I too had it hard; I grew up in a really poor family, and just on and on and on. [00:05:45] So as we start to frame this conversation about we start listening to one another, what are some tools or suggestions that you recommend for being able to build empathy? Kori Carew: [00:06:01] Yeah. Wow, that's a hard one. One of the things that strikes me that we suffer with as a culture is a mindset of scarcity. We act in so many ways as if there isn't enough, and you see it in the political discussion around who's getting opportunities and who isn't, right? The other day somebody said to me on a Starbucks Facebook wall page that when we talk about diversity, what we mean is everybody but white men. And that is not true, that's not accurate, but it's a mindset of scarcity. There isn't enough. If you progress or opportunities come your way, then it's coming away from me. And that shows up in our conversations, because instead of listening to one another we start to compare; as if we can rank suffering. [00:07:01] You know, that's what it feels like to me. And we do it not with just race. I think you've given some excellent examples where you talk about your experience as a marginalized person, because you're a woman or because you're a woman of color, or that intersection of the two that we know is a double whammy. And somebody wants to, rather than sitting in the space and listening to you and absorbing and trying to understand what must that feel like for her, and how can I use my experience to connect with her and be part of the solution, wants to one-up you by telling you their experience. Which may be different or inapplicable. [00:07:38] And what I see is that we not only do this with race, but we do it with everything. I say I'm in grief because I had a miscarriage, and someone says well at least you didn't have a stillbirth. Or I'm having trouble getting pregnant, we've been trying for two years. "Well, I've had seven years of infertility treatment." And we do that with the small things and the big things, and when we do it with race we're taking something that is a national wound, something that has generational impact, something that so deeply affects people's day-to-day lives, and we minimize it even more. And what it does is it shuts down our ability to actually have a conversation. When you hear a lot of people of color say, I've seen articles and books written where people are saying, "Why I won't talk about race with white people anymore." And it may seem very harsh for them to say that, but what they're saying is that it's exhausting if it becomes a competition. [00:08:49] So in terms of tools and practical things that we can do, practicing a higher level of listening. Where you are trying to connect with the other person, in terms of values and in terms of understanding what they're saying. To be able to still ourselves and our temptation to make it about us, to center the conversation around us, to be able to say, "How can I try to put myself in this person's shoes? I've never walked in their shoes so chances are I'm not going to be able to get myself all the way there, but how can I get close?" [00:09:29] So perhaps that tendency to say, well I may not be a woman of color but I've also had it hard, maybe leveraging that experience to say, okay I know what it feels like to have things hard. So now let me imagine what that feels like to not only have things hard, but to constantly be marginalized or to be made to feel like I don't belong. And this is where listening with empathy and suspending judgment, being able to not attribute good or bad to it. To listen to your story when you're sharing about all those times you have felt diminished and not try to attach judgment to it. To not say, "Oh Jeena you're being too sensitive," or well I wouldn't have cared about that, or, well this is the problem with women; you make everything into a big deal and it's a problem because you've chosen to make it a problem. And these are skills that we can learn, but we have to practice them. If you have children, I think children are great people to practice this with, because lord knows we definitely always want to steer them and correct them. And it's so incredibly hard to just listen and ask them questions to better understand, as opposed to jumping in and telling them what to do because we feel responsible for them. Jeena Cho: [00:10:56] Yeah. I think part of what makes this conversation hard is that there is this sense, whether it's implicit or explicit, that "you" the white person is responsible for this. So I think there is this natural tendency to become defensive. When I talk about the judge that looked at me and said, "Are you the Asian language interpreter?" And when I share that story with another white male lawyer, I think there is this feeling like oh, I am part of that category of people and therefore I am bad. And I think that's perhaps what leads to that inclination or temptation to say, well you know I was once mistaken for whatever, the defendant. You know, that kind of one-upmanship, rather than say wow, that must have been really hard. Or I can't even imagine that happening, tell me more. So how do we move from this place of blaming others, and also moving away from feeling like you're being blamed? How do we encourage people to move towards solutions? Kori Carew: [00:12:16] The first part of the question was how do we move away from blame; I think it's twofold. I think there are times that people are being blamed, and then I think there are other times where people are hearing blame where none is ascribed. Robin D'Angelo comes up with the term "white fragility" and "white tears" which a lot of people have been using lately. I generally don't use it in my work, but I understand the concept. And some of what has to happen is we all have to agree that it's going to be uncomfortable and painful at times, but that if we ultimately want things to be better we have to commit to sitting in that discomfort. [00:13:02] And so there are going to be times that topics are going to come up where people are going to feel like they're being blamed or attacked. But part of emotional intelligence and part of developing better people skills is being able to step back and say, wait a minute am I being attacked? Or is this person just sharing their experience? And one of the things that I don't think we do very well in the United States when it comes to race or other systemic isms, is we don't differentiate between what is systemic or cultural and what is individual. We have so collapsed the conversation on racism, for example, we've reduced it down to an overly simplistic idea that it is somebody being malicious or discriminating based on race. Right? We've dulled it down so much, so a lot of times when people are reactive and say, well I'm not racist or I'm not this or I'm not that, or when they minimize bad behavior. When they say, well I know that person, I know Jeena, Jeena is a good person; she has a good heart, she couldn't have done that. We completely misunderstand how racism works. So once we begin to understand that there are systemic and structural elements to this, historical elements that are woven into the foundation of this country and the culture, you then begin to be better able to separate the conversation of what is happening to people and the experiences from individuals who are in the system who may benefit from privilege or who may be harmed through oppression. And that begins to create an area, some space where we all can say okay, we're all in this system. [00:14:54] Just like implicit bias; we all have implicit bias, and the reason we have it is because we're all subjected and bombarded by the same messages, the same stereotypes, the same myths, about different groups of people. And so I can look at that and say, here's the system. I as a Christian am showing up to work. And I get to celebrate Christmas, I get to celebrate Easter. I don't have to take special days off for Christmas, the office is going to be closed. But the person who is observing Ramadan right now, or who may need time off for Eid, they may not have that privilege. So when someone is talking about Christian privilege, I don't necessarily have to be defensive and feel attacked. I can say, in this system that has been created through nothing that I did, I certainly benefit from that Christian privilege. But somebody else is at a disadvantage. How can I use my position to be part of the solution? So that's part of it. [00:15:54] A second part of it is that there are times that people are blamed and shamed and attacked, and we have to have a philosophy that that is not okay. A big part of my work, a foundational part of my work and how I approach things at my workplace, at church and the community, is that we have to develop a culture of grace. And that is a culture of acknowledging that while we're on the journey, people are going to come into this conversation at different places of awareness. You're going to meet people who are going to join the conversation who think of themselves as advocates and allies, who probably perpetuate some problematic racist views. And we're seeing a lot of that. [00:16:35] There's a lot of conversation now about liberal progressives, and how even those of us who consider ourselves progressive, sometimes we hold some views that are really problematic. You're going to have people who are going to come into the conversation because they've never had to deal with it, but they want to be part of the solution. So they are at the early stages, they may not even know the foundational things. You're going to share some of your stories with them and they're going to say, Oh my gosh. Here's a common one. "Oh my God, this is not America." And then some person of color is going to say, excuse me? This is the America I've known. Just because you were not aware of it doesn't mean that this hasn't always been real. So if we don't have grace in that process to say people are going to come in at different levels, and if we want to encourage people to speak and to be part of the conversation then we can't shut them down when they say something we don't like. And we have to have better ways of showing when they say things that are offensive. [00:17:37] One of the things that I've learned from Renee Myers, she has this terminology where she says, "Give people the permission to say ouch." So when you say something that you may be well-meaning or we're having a discussion on how to fix a problem and you start saying something like (because I've heard this), "I don't really see what the obstacles are, I don't understand why minority attorneys aren't succeeding they've been given everything." Or at one firm that I worked at, a partner saying, "I've heard feedback that the women feel that there aren't the same opportunities for them and that we have some sexism, and I'm going to call a meeting and tell them all that that's not true." And I thought to myself, that's a great plan; please come tell us about our experiences and come tell us, because you apparently know better than we do. [00:18:30] But what she talks about is in those situations, develop terminology to be able to say things like ouch. So what I've done in my work is, we may have different ways but encouraging people to be able to say, wow that's very interesting that you feel that way. But can I give you some feedback? When you say "X," what I hear is "this." I had one partner that I worked with that I would joke with him because he used to coach soccer, I would tell him I'm going to have yellow cards ready for you and red cards. And when you start seeing that yellow card, you need to slow down. And when I show you a red card, you need to stop. But we had that personal relationship because he had asked me to coach him. And that was our system for when he would get emotional; when he needed someone to help him see, "Hey, some of what you're saying is not landing okay." [00:19:32] So as part of our communities, as part of our groups, we have to learn to do that. If we're going to have conversations with people, we have to learn to be able to communicate back to them about why something they're saying or doing is problematic, without attacking them as a person. And shame is such a part of our culture. You know Brene Brown differentiates shame from guilt as shame is when someone feels like they are a bad person, as opposed to they did a bad thing or they made a mistake. And what we've done in our culture is we use shame to control people. We communicate to them in ways to make them feel like they are a bad person, or you are the thing that you've done; you are that mistake that you've made. And it creeps up in our conversations around racism and other isms. [00:20:25] And I think for the most part, it is possible to have conversations with folks without getting into that. Now, when people are outright problematic, we sometimes have to be firmer in shutting that down. There has to be a line where we say, we're all for free conversation but this here crosses the line, and we're not going to belittle other people; not in this space, because those are not our values. Jeena Cho: [00:20:54] Can you talk about this concept of covering, what that means and how that shows up for people? Kori Carew: [00:21:02] Ah, covering. So I first learned about covering when I listened to Kenji Yoshino several years ago. And when I heard him speak I just decided, oh my god I'm in love with this guy; I'm in love with his brain, he is brilliant. But the way he presented it, I walked up to him and I said, "Kenji I never had a word for what I was feeling and you just gave me a word." That's how I felt. What he described and what he talked about, it resonated with me. I'm like, oh my god I know exactly what that is. What I didn't know was that there's a word for it. And so, the concept of covering actually dates back to 1963. A man named Goffman wrote a book called "Stigma," and what he talked about was how people from groups, various demographic groups, sometimes have traits that are disfavored or stigmatized in the mainstream. And so what they do, people from these groups, is they go through great effort to minimize those so-called disfavorable traits. It's different than passing, with passing for example passing would be a very light-skinned black woman who people think is white. So you can get away with people thinking you're white. [00:22:27] With covering, people know that you're black, they know you're Hispanic, they know you're a woman. But there's something about that group, traits, stigmas, myths, stereotypes, whatever, that we go out of our way to downplay. Some of the common examples, in Kenji's research he found that one of the most common ways that black woman will cover is straighten their hair. So there's a lot of myths and pressure that in order for us to look professional and to be professional and to be accepted in white America, our hair has to be straightened. And so people will straighten their hair not because they authentically wanted, but these are the roles that we've been given in order to succeed. Another common example is women who are mothers who will not have pictures of their children in the office, or not talk about their children because they're trying to stay away from that double-bind stereotype where we are perceived as not being very competent if we're mothers, or not dedicated to our career if we're mothers. And conversely, judged and criticized for not being good mothers if we're really good at our job or dedicated to our job. People who are LGBTQ who may not have pictures of their spouses in the office, or when they're asked what they do on the weekend deliberately go out of their way to use neutral language so you can't figure out that their spouse is same-sex, says them. So it's those things that constitute covering, and part of what Kenji points out in his work is that there's an area where the civil rights laws actually don't protect people. And ironically, yesterday I delivered a workshop on intersectionality and advancing women, advancing all women. And the same concept applies; there is this idea that there are ways in which we can still discriminate against people, but skirt the law. So if I am marginalized and mistreated in my job because I've chosen to wear my hair naturally, the way the case law falls out they can say, well this is not about race. That was a choice that you made in how you style your hair. [00:24:55] When in fact, it is a core part of who I am and how I was created. And I am being asked to alter it to fit into some normative lens that is based on white culture, you know. So it's a very important concept I believe, and I believe another reason it's very important is it really conflicts with authenticity. And we know more and more how critical and important being authentic is, and what the toll is. We know from the studies that there is an emotional tax for example, that black employees face that women of color face. There's that extra burden that people have when they're being asked to conform. We know that when you have organizations that have different cultures, the ability for the organization to succeed in being inclusive depends on how well people are able to adapt across differences. And when you're asking people to cover, you're essentially asking them to minimize their diversity; you're asking them to minimize the areas that make them different. And it's a form of denial, it's a form of saying, "Hey Jeena, we really value diversity so we want you to work here, but when you get here please be the whitest Asian woman that you can be." And I've used that example with people when I've talked to them about it, to say you know don't ask me to be the whitest black girl that you can find; give me space to be who I am. So that concept of covering I think is critical. It's a critical part of the conversation and creating inclusion and belonging, and being able to appreciate that there are different ways that people can show up and be and live. Some of the more powerful examples of covering that Kenji talks about, he talks about President Roosevelt and how even though people knew he was disabled, he deliberately would take pictures and meet with people behind his desk so that you couldn't see the wheelchair. [00:27:02] So essentially, all you're doing is trying to remove from the consciousness of other people this disfavored trait. And think about how much energy goes into doing that. You know, changing how you speak and changing how you present yourself, and constantly thinking about the things that you have to downplay, just in order to be included. And that certainly is not inclusion. Jeena Cho: [00:27:27] Well and also it is for the benefit of the other person, so that they would feel comfortable. You're sacrificing your own well-being so that the other person doesn't have to look at your afro or learn to say.. like I was born in Korea, my birth name is Shihan. And of course no one could say my name correctly, so eventually I was like okay I'll just go by Jeena because people can say that. But I think that too is a form of conforming who I am, so that I don't make other people feel uncomfortable. And that's such a lived experience for people of color, for all marginalized groups where you can't truly be yourself. What do you think is the impact on the company where people have to engage in covering? Kori Carew: [00:28:25] Oh, the impact is detrimental; we know that from studies. It affects productivity, it affects engagement, it affects your energy. When an organization is pushing covering.. so I want to go back to something that you just said. The difference between covering is whether it's imposed externally by pressure, by perceptions, versus an individual choice. So if in your case you just decided, you know what I'm sick of them messing up my name so I'm going to go by Jeena because it irritates me when they mess up my name. That feels slightly different than when someone says, "How do you say your name? Say it again? Well I'm just going to call you Jeena because that's too hard to say.". Jeena Cho: [00:29:09] That's exactly what happened when I was in third grade, yeah. Kori Carew: [00:29:12] That is covering. That is covering. And I'm going to add something else to that. I think it is also so disrespectful, it's so disrespectful. You know my husband and I had this conversation when we were having kids. He's from Iowa, he was worried about the African names. And I really wanted my kids to have African names, I tried to negotiate for hyphenated names and he said no. And I thought, well doggone it there needs to be some.. I'm the one growing these babies. I'm the one doing the hard work, they need to have some stamp of Africanness on them. I wanted their first names to be African, and he was concerned about bullying, he was concerned about people making fun of their names. And then I heard from friends and other people saying, well what if people can't say their name, and what if this, and what if that. And I thought to myself, I have a difficult name; My name is Koriambanya. [00:30:09] And almost my entire life, unless you're from my mother's ethnic group, you have not pronounced it correctly. But it is my name and I am proud of it. And I will go by Kori because Kori is truly part of my name, and it's the name of my father's chiefdom. You know, there's a story behind my name. Lady from Koriambanya chiefdom. So my name means something, and my parents took the time to name me, and I have pride in my name. But it bothered me that we have these conversations as people of color, we have these conversations as immigrants, but I'm supposed to be able to say Tschaikowsky and other hard names. I mean, if you can figure out how to say that I'm sorry, you can learn how to say other ethnic names. And I think our brains, we choose to be lazy. So what we're going to do when this podcast is done, is you're going to teach me how to say your name. Because I want to learn how to say your name correctly. Jeena Cho: [00:31:12] I got kind of teary-eyed hearing you say that. Kori Carew: [00:31:18] Don't be. But I do want to know how to say your name right. And I think there's this part of it that what we indicate is, we don't have the energy to put into learning your name, so I'm just going to call you something else. I had somebody else call me KoKo. I'm like, no, no, that's not my name. Don't give me a nickname, it's not that hard. It's not that hard. And there are people from Nigeria who say, there's an ethnic group, everybody from the ethnic group will say my name as "Kor-Ee." And then "Kor-ey". You know, there are all kinds of accents that people have. I am forgiving of that. [00:31:57] I am forgiving of the fact that depending on what your first language was, it's going to impact how words come out. That's why people have accents. And I grew up around a ton of accents, and I'm okay with that. What I'm less okay with is when people don't even try to even come close. So at this point, I don't remember what your question was. I think your question was what is the toll in the workplace or the consequences in the workplace of covering. Jeena Cho: [00:32:31] Yeah, and as you mentioned there is so much research. And I think that's the point that sometimes gets missed; it's not necessarily even just about that person, it's about the impact that it has on the group, on the team, on the organization, when people in that group don't have that sense of belonging, where they can truly be themselves. And if you've always been part of the majority and everyone that you work with looks like you, talks like you, has a very similar background, probably went to college, maybe law school together. You know, it's really hard to even describe the impact that it has when you have to engage in covering. Kori Carew: [00:33:16] You're so right. But you know, the good thing, the positive thing about a conversation on covering is that it is an area where we can capture the attention of more people in the majority than a lot of other traditional areas of conversation. Because even white men report experiencing covering. So people who grow up in a different socioeconomic class, and they show up in the white-shoe law firm and they feel like they have to cover. They didn't grow up playing golf but now they have to act like they understand the country club culture, all kinds of different areas of covering. So what happens is, similar to the conversation that we started with before, where people say oh I had it hard too, but they use it negatively. The positive part with covering is that it can open up the door for people to go, oh yeah I know what that feels like. One example that we've used almost every time at my firm we've talked about cultural competency, and we've talked about the different dimensions of culture and what that feels like when we create artificial standards that are based just on one cultural dimension and a normative lens that is not inclusive. What we have seen is, when we use the example of introverts extroverts. So there's some research that indicates that up to 70% of lawyers are introverts. But yet, still when you look at our stereotypes of what we believe a good business developer, good rainmaker is, it's always this person who is an extrovert and can walk into the room and just be the center and walks the world, you know or works the room rather. There's so many things that when we're interviewing people we're making these decisions. Do we think this person would be good with clients, do we think that they will be on their feet, do we think they will be good in the courtroom? And they're all based on extrovert attributes. Jeena Cho: [00:35:23] Yeah. Kori Carew: [00:35:24] Whereas, if you actually look at law firms and a lot of the people who are very good at what they do, I know extremely good trial lawyers that are introverts. Some of the best rainmakers that I know are introverts. They don't bring in business by working the room, but by building relationships with people one-on-one. And the difference between introverts and extroverts when it comes to dealing with people, it's not the stereotype of shyness or not liking people, it has more to do with where they get their energy. So an extrovert can walk into a room of 200 people and they can chit chat with a bunch of different people and work the room, whereas an introvert would rather just have a one-on-one conversation and go deeper with people. Which is an asset for business development; it's an asset for helping the client feel like, "I am present, I am here with you and what's going on with you is what I care about right now." [00:36:25] And so what we do in the room is, there's always a question I'll ask or the facilitator will ask: how many of you in this room are introverts? And then people will raise their hands invariably. And then, how many of you feel exhausted by the time you get home, because you've been playing an extrovert all day? Or rather, how do you feel when you get home? Exhausted, worn out, those are the kind of terms that people use. And so then you say ah, okay. [00:36:58] So when you come from a culture that is more direct and you're working in an indirect environment, or if you come from a culture that's hierarchical and people are saying you have to knock on the partner's doors and demand work and advocate for yourself and push for yourself, that's how you feel; exhausted. And they get it, they get it. Because most of us are covering something. It's just that when it comes to race and gender, we're really talking about some negative, really negative biases. Same with disability actually, and LGBTQ status; really negative biases that people may have. So it's something that we can use to our advantage to really create more inclusive environments. Jeena Cho: [00:37:53] Yeah, that makes so much sense. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. Kori, for the listeners out there that want to learn more about your work, what are some places where they can do that? Kori Carew: [00:38:05] Well I have a website, www.KoriCarew.com. And it's really a place where I go to talk about what does it look like to live an authentic, powerful life that's full of grace, being fierce, inclusion, and faith. So, my website is www.KoriCarew.com. I'm also on Twitter, and my handle is simply my name @KoriCarew. I'm also on Instagram, but I don't post very often on there. My nine-year-old niece over spring break said to me, Aunt Kori I think one area I could help you is helping you maximize your Instagram account. She also showed me how to get an account on YouTube. So yeah, the children in my life are educating me. So I'm on Twitter and Instagram with my name, @Kori Carew. [00:39:00] I'm also on LinkedIn, and LinkedIn is probably where I post the most content that relates to diversity and inclusion and belonging. Sometimes I talk about authenticity there, but I weave all of that stuff in because I believe they're interconnected. Authenticity, leadership, belonging, inclusion, equity. So you can find me on any one of those places, but check out my website. Check out the articles there, and the videos. And, I love talking about this stuff because I think it's important and I think we have to create better ways of being, because everything our children are learning, they're learning from watching us and how we navigate the world. Jeena Cho: [00:39:44] Yeah, so true. Kori, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Kori Carew: [00:39:54] I think being a resilient lawyer means being able to connect with who you are, what you're called to, and keep getting up. Keep moving forward, not moving forward in the sense of striving or a worldly definition of success, but more so putting out the light and the beauty and the work and the art that you were born to do. And continuing to grow as a person as you continue to do that, and just getting up. Some days we get up and we're exhausted. Like today, I got up and my body said, "I keep telling you-you're not 25 anymore." And being able to listen to that and say okay, so today I'm going to go a little slower. But still you keep moving, and you keep doing the work. You do the work that you're purposed for, that you're called for. That is your gift to this world and this universe, and you stay at it and you keep growing and you do it. To me, that is what being a resilient lawyer is. Jeena Cho: [00:41:14] Beautiful. Kori, thank you so much for being with me today. I just so appreciate you and the work that you're doing in the world. And I just want to high-five ya! Kori Carew: [00:41:26] Thank you, and I appreciate the work that you're doing. And we have got to get your work out further to our profession. We are desperate for this, whether we know it or not. We are desperate for more mindfulness, resilience, and just being better people. We're hungry for it. So thank you so much for what you do, and I love your podcast. Please, please keep it up. You're giving us some great content out there to help us live better lives. So thank you. Closing: [00:42:09] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Megan Boyd on to talk about what transitioning into a new career from law looks like. Megan Boyd is a lecturer at Georgia State University College of Law. Before entering academia, Megan served as a law clerk and practiced law at a mid-sized firm, where she did insurance coverage and bad faith work as co-chairperson of the firm's appellate practice group. She has written numerous articles about legal writing and is a frequent speaker on that topic at continuing legal education events and conferences throughout the country. She is also the co-author of the book "Show, Don't Tell: Legal Writing for the Real World." Topics Covered How she made the decision to leave the traditional law practice and focus on legal writing, and her advice to law students to better prepare them for working in a law practice. Advice for students and lawyers thinking about leaving law; understanding that although the job can be stressful, constant anxiety towards the amount of work is unhealthy, and balancing your happiness with a career is possible. How to discern when is the right time to re-evaluate your happiness/career, and tools to help manage work anxiety. Challenges with and benefits of leaving the law practice. You can contact Megan on Twitter or via email at boyd_megan@yahoo.com. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Megan Boyd: [00:00:09] When you find something that you love, one of two things will happen. Either the money will come, or it won't but you won't care. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I have Megan Boyd. She is a lecturer at Georgia State University College of Law. Before entering academia, Megan served as a law clerk and practiced law at a mid-sized firm, where she did insurance coverage and bad-faith work as co-chairperson of the firm's appellate practice group. She's written numerous articles about legal writing, and is a frequent speaker on the topic at CLE events at conferences around the country. She is also the co-author of the book "Show, Don't Tell: Legal Writing for the Real World." I wanted to have Megan on the show to chat about career options for lawyers that don't want to practice law anymore. [00:01:25] Also, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episodes, go back and check it out. It was on May 16th and May 30th. I shared 2 six-minute meditation and mindfulness practices to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course, Mindful Pause. I know for so many lawyers, finding any time for themselves and giving the thinking mind a rest can be a huge challenge. So I wanted to create a course that can fit easily into even the busiest lawyer's schedule. It's called Mindful Pause, and you can learn more about it on JeenaCho.com. Again, that's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com, or head on over to the show notes to check it out. And with that, here's Megan. Hi Megan, welcome to the show. Megan Boyd: [00:02:13] Hi Jeena, thank you for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:15] Let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Megan Boyd: [00:02:19] Sure, my name is Megan Boyd. I'm a lecturer at Georgia State University College of Law. I teach a number of different classes, including legal writing classes, animal law, civil procedure (which is going to be new for me this coming year), and I have written a number of articles about legal writing. I do CLE's and speak at conferences about it, and I am the co-author of a book on legal writing, so it's a topic that I'm very, very interested in. Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] And so I want to start your story back when you were in law school. When did you decide, law practice isn't right for me? Megan Boyd: [00:03:03] So, I loved law school itself. I mean literally loved every minute of it. I'm that rare person who really, really enjoy law school, because I love to learn, I loved the environment. But after my second year of law school, I did a summer clerkship, was a summer associate, and it was a really, really terrible experience. And I found myself crying on my drive home most days, and I just knew that this was not normal. [00:03:31] Something was wrong, and so I thought do I really want to be a lawyer, if this is what lawyers do every day? And obviously a summer associate experience is not necessarily indicative of what lawyers do every day, but the fact that I was unhappy doing that told me that there might be some problems in the future. But I graduated from law school in 2008, a lot of my classmates didn't have jobs and I felt really lucky to have a job. I had gone straight through from college to law school, and I needed to get out and earn some money and try this at least, I thought. Even though I was pretty sure after that second-year summer that I did not want to practice law for the rest of my life, which was really sad and hard and difficult, a really, really, difficult situation to find yourself in. Because I still had one more year of school to go, and I'm thinking did I make a huge mistake in coming to law school? And now thinking, I'm going to have spent these three years going to school to be a part of a profession that I don't think I really want to be a part of. Jeena Cho: [00:04:47] Wow, yeah. Megan Boyd: [00:04:49] So that was tough. Jeena Cho: [00:04:50] Yeah. And going to law school is such a huge commitment, and to be halfway through it and go oh, did I make a mistake? That must have been really hard and scary. Megan Boyd: [00:05:02] It was, it was really tough and really scary. And the prospect of being as unhappy as I was that summer for the next 30 years or more was really, really daunting for me. And again, I went back for my third year. And I loved law school so much, and I couldn't figure out why it was that I didn't like doing the things that lawyers do. And subsequently, I figured out what it was about law practice that I didn't really enjoy. But at the time, I really couldn't put my finger on it. Jeena Cho: [00:05:41] What were the specifics for why you didn't enjoy law practice? Megan Boyd: [00:05:46] Well I think one of the things is that I am a Type A person, which many lawyers are, but I did not like not having control over my own schedule. I always felt like I could not anticipate what each day would bring. And I know for some people that's a really exciting thing, they love new challenges and things like that. But I'm the type of person where I need to get up each day and be able to know what my day was going to look like, and further ahead what the next few days or the rest of the week was going to look like. And I never felt like I could do that in law practice, because there were always "emergencies" that weren't really emergencies that would come up. Or I would have prepared extensively to go take a deposition and it would get canceled the night before, and I had in my mind mentally prepared for that and that's what I'm going to be doing tomorrow. And I just found that that was really bothersome for me. And I remember the first year I practiced law, a big document review project came up right before Thanksgiving. [00:06:57] And this was when we had a bunch of documents still on paper. And I remember lugging home binders and binders full of paper, and sitting on my grandmother's floor over my Thanksgiving holiday when I wanted to be spending time with my family, sitting and reviewing these documents. And it was a miserable experience. Jeena Cho: [00:07:22] So when you're working with law students now, how do you have that conversation about the realities of being a lawyer? Because so much of what you say, and I'm sure every lawyer that's listening to this podcast is like yeah, that's just what law practice looks like. So what do you tell the law students? Megan Boyd: [00:07:44] So I walk a really fine line, because I never want to discourage anyone from being a lawyer, from completing law school and becoming a lawyer. Because I do think that in many ways it's a really great, honorable profession. And there are many people I know who are happy practicing law. So I never want my dissatisfaction with law practice to rub off on them. But I do talk to them quite a lot about figuring out what it is in law that you want to do, what is it that motivates you? I'm thinking about writing a little article for the ABA law student blog about this, but I think one of the things that I did not do as a law student and that would have served me well was to figure out what it is that motivates me, what it is about law practice that I enjoy. And then look for a job or look for a job in the future that met all of my criteria and the things that I wanted. Some people are motivated by money, and that's absolutely fine. Other people are motivated by doing good, having that hands-on client contact and making a real difference in some folk's lives. Other people are motivated by a job where they get a lot of praise and they feel like they're being told on a regular basis that they're doing a good job, and that they're earning their keep and that type of thing. So I really encourage students to figure out what it is that motivates them early on, and to work for that and toward that. I always tell students, so many of the students that I see and so many people who go to law school are motivated by the prospect of money. And I tell them from my own experience, when you find something that you love one of two things will happen: either the money will come, or it won't but you won't care. And I think that that's a really important thing for law students and young lawyers, and even more developed lawyers to remember. When taking a risk in particular, maybe changing a practice area or firm, or whatever the case may be. That when you're doing something that you really love, even if you are motivated by money, it stops mattering. Jeena Cho: [00:10:08] Yeah, that's really great advice. And also, I really appreciate the fact that you're willing to have these conversations with law students. Because when I was in law school, I don't know that I had a whole lot of conversations with my professors about the actual practice of law. And it's kind of a charming experience to go from law school to my first job and go, I don't really know anything and no one told me about having to work around the clock. And just the constant level of anxiety that I would feel. Megan Boyd: [00:10:44] Yeah, and talking about things that made me ill-suited for the practice of law, that was one of the things as well. I lived in pretty much 24/7, constant anxiety. When I started practicing law, initially I would look forward every week to Friday because I would have the whole weekend. And then the dread would start setting in on Sunday afternoon, which was bad in of itself. But the longer I practiced, it got to the point where I didn't even have my weekends anymore; the dread started setting in earlier and earlier, and there was no point at which I was happy or comfortable, or anxiety-free. Jeena Cho: [00:11:34] Wow. So, did that anxiety dissipate once you left law practice and went into academia? Megan Boyd: [00:11:42] So I will tell you that it did, but it took a number of years for it to come down, which sounds strange. So I initially practiced at one law firm, and about two years in I left to go to another law firm. And changing firms did make some difference, because at the second firm I had a little bit more control over my own schedule. Still not any real control, right, because of clients and courts and scheduling, things like that. But I had more control, and so it did get a little better there. And I thought for about a year, maybe I can do this; maybe I was wrong, maybe it was just the two prior environments that I was in. But after about a year of being at that job, I still was not happy. So I knew that I really had to consider making the change. Once I left law practice, it really took about two years for me to come down from the constant level of stress and anxiety that I existed under when I practiced law. Jeena Cho: [00:12:52] Wow. Megan Boyd: [00:12:53] And that was, it was amazing to me that it didn't immediately dissipate. I think in my mind I thought it would, I thought as soon as I leave law practice all of a sudden my life will change immediately. And it didn't, it really took a while to get rid of all of that anxiety that had built up inside of me. Jeena Cho: [00:13:16] Because you know, I think that's always something that I struggle with internally. How much of the anxiety is just the way that I am wired? And so going and seeing a therapist and getting more tools under my belt, having a mindfulness practice and having all of these tools to manage anxiety is really what I need? Or is it just that the job itself is wrong for me? So I feel like it's always that dance of being able to discern the two. Do you have thoughts on that? Because you can experience anxiety in any job, but how much of it is sort of you having to do internal work on yourself and have tools to manage anxiety, versus an, "I just need to leave this job" kind of situation? Megan Boyd: [00:14:14] Yeah, it's definitely both. I am a high-anxiety person; I always have been. So it's not that my job now is no anxiety by any stretch of the imagination. So I think that one of the things that leaving law practice made me see was that I needed to learn to control the anxiety that is always present within me. Now my anxiety decreased substantially by the end of those two years after I left, but it certainly didn't go away. And again, that was something that was surprising to me because I thought it would. So that's when I really started looking into how can I learn to control the anxiety that is always going to exist within me. I'm one of those weird people who if I don't have something to make me anxious, I start creating possible things to make me anxious; it's that bad. So it was once I left law that I was able to start thinking more deeply about tools and strategies and the work I needed to do so that I could live a life that I didn't need to take a vacation from all the time. Jeena Cho: [00:16:11] What were some of those tools or help or strategies that you found to be helpful for managing that persistent, low-grade anxiety? Megan Boyd: [00:16:17] One of the things that I learned from a therapist (she taught me a lot of really great things, but) was every day I would write down (I would just do it on my phone, make myself a little note) ten things that I was grateful for. And in going back and looking at some of those now from years ago, it's many of the same things. And at first I had trouble coming up with ten things that I was grateful for; I was in such a bad state that I couldn't really think of ten things that I was grateful for. And every now and then, even now when I'm feeling a lot of anxiety, I will sit down and do that. And sometimes it's something really simple, like I was able to take a nap today. And sometimes its big things, like my family and my friends and stuff like that. So that was one of the things that really helped me. It sounds really simple, but it really helped me focus on the things in my life that bring me joy and that make me happy. Instead of focusing on the things in my life that stress me out, give me anxiety. So that was one of the things. [00:17:23] Meditation practice is another, I use an app called Insight Timer. I recommend it to students who I talk to who have anxiety issues, I think Insight Timer is really great. Sometimes I use the guided meditations, sometimes it's just the music. But it really puts me in a good state, if I'm willing to focus and work on the meditation. You know that's another thing, meditation is really a practice; it does require effort. That's the misnomer people think, that meditation you can just sit and do it and not have to work at it, just passively. But doing that, learning to take better care of myself in terms of doing things that I enjoy. For so much of my life, literally everything I did was work. My therapist used to tell me that I collect jobs like people collect knick-knacks. Because at any given time I would have two or three jobs that I was doing; I am a workaholic and I've always been a workaholic. And it's stepping back from that, and I honestly had gotten to a point where I could not remember the things that I enjoyed doing that weren't work. Which is a really sad and sick place to find yourself in. I remember one thing I started doing is I really liked to read magazines, so I would give myself permission every week when I would go to the grocery store on Sunday, to buy a magazine. I didn't want one that came in in the mail, but to actually purchase a magazine and to sit down and read it. Which Was something that I really enjoyed, but I had gotten to a point in my life where everything that I used to enjoy no longer brought me any joy, because when I was doing it I was just worried about what I needed to be doing instead. Exercise is great for me; I need to exercise on a regular basis. When I do not it is not good for my mental health. So it's just knowing that and knowing that even if I really, really don't want to go to the gym or don't want to go for a walk or run, that I really need to do so for my own health, that it's a self-care thing. Jeena Cho: [00:19:35] I love all of those, and that word self-care is just so key. It's funny, I also had a therapist that suggested I write down just three things I'm grateful for every day. And I actually started having so much anxiety around the fact that my grateful list wasn't good enough. I'd write down things like, I'm so grateful for the lunch that I ate today, and then I'd be like oh my gosh really, you're grateful for your lunch?! Megan Boyd: [00:20:00] Right, yeah. You know my therapist was really good at telling me, these can be silly things. They can absolutely be silly, they don't have to be big, monumental things. I laugh, I always tell people I am the best direction follower you can possibly imagine. So I was dutiful about doing this, and I would bring it and I would show it to her and she would give me approval, and I was like yes I've done this right! [00:20:30] Which is in itself not the greatest thing, but I was dutiful about doing it. And the more I did it, the easier it sort of got to do. And again, it sounds like a really silly thing, but it really, really did have a big impact on me. And like I said, even now I'll go back and I'll read the things that I wrote as long as four or five years ago, and see what it was that day that I was feeling really grateful for. And it's many of the same things that I feel grateful for now, so it's a reminder that these really good things are still in my life. Jeena Cho: [00:21:08] I use an app called Happy Feed, kind of the same thing. It's three things you are grateful for, it prompts you. And I also like being able to scroll back and see what I wrote previously. I'm also a huge fan of Insight Timer. I have some of my guided meditations on there too, so definitely check it out. And what I love about Insight Timer is that you get stars, and I feel like as adults we need more opportunities where someone give you a gold star for a job well done. Megan Boyd: [00:21:36] Yeah, absolutely. I love it that it's like you've meditated five days in a row. And I'm like yes, yes I have! Again, it's the gold star thing. It's really good at cheering you on. And I think Insight Timer is really cool because it has so many different options for you. So whether you want a really short practice or longer practice, whether you want to sleep, whether you need help with anxiety, or various things that you can put into Insight Timer and it'll pop up with suggestions for meditations and talks and all kinds of things that will really help you. Jeena Cho: [00:22:14] And for the younger attorneys out there, or even law students that are like, I just don't think law practice is right for me. What advice or tools or strategies would you offer to them? Megan Boyd: [00:22:32] I would say that you need to at least try it out. Even though I really didn't want to, I needed to go and try it out and see if maybe it was just a bad time in my life that led me to believe this. And so I stuck it out for five years, but it was about at the end of year three where I started getting ready to make my move. And it took two years for me to do it. So I think that that's a good lesson, because even if you get in and you're like gosh, I really, really am ill-suited for this, I need to find something else to do. It's oftentimes really difficult to do that. It's figuring out how to, number one. And it's getting up the courage to do so. That was one of the things that was hard for me, because as unhappy as I was, it was still fear of the unknown was worse than the unhappiness that I felt. And actually, one of the things that I did was I got some bonus money (one of the years when I got a bonus) and I took that money and I hired a career coach. I remember some of my friends saying, that's a waste of money, you don't even know that that's going to work. And I said yeah, but what I'm doing right now isn't working so it's worth a shot. And the thing is that the stuff that the career coach did for me was nothing that was rocket science right? Now in retrospect, it makes perfect sense. But what she did was sit me down and say, "What is it you like to do? Are there parts of law practice that you really enjoy? Could we figure out a way for you to practice law so you did mostly those things and little of other things?" And she really got me thinking about what is it that I do really enjoy about law. I loved law school, as I've said several times here, and I really thought that I might want to go teach. I had no idea how to get on the path to do that, and she really helped me to figure out what I needed to do to get to a point where I could go into academia and teach. And again, because I'm a good direction follower I did everything that she asked me to do. She would give me homework assignments and it was the fear of disappointing her or letting her down that really motivated me to do them, because they were things that made a lot of sense but it required me to reach out to people and go outside of my comfort zone. And without that additional motivation, I'm not sure I would have done it on my own or I would have done it as quickly as I did. Jeena Cho: [00:26:30] Yeah and I think that's really the key, is to do those things that scare you and make you uncomfortable. Because that's really the only way you're going to grow and find your path. Megan Boyd: [00:26:38] Yeah, absolutely. I talk to so many lawyers who my friends, my age, many older, who are really, really unhappy, but they're not willing to put in the work it would take to figure out how to change what they do or to leave law. There's not a lot of advice that either you or I or really anybody else can offer somebody who's just not willing to do that. It is scary, it takes a lot of courage to leave something that you've spent so many years of your life both preparing for and doing. And so you really have to motivate yourself to get up that courage to do it, or you're never going to leave. Because let's face it, there are lawyers who make a ton of money and lawyers who don't make a lot, but nobody is living at the poverty line. People who practice law for the most part make an okay living to survive. [00:27:36] So for those people like me, who made a pretty good living, it's also hard mentally to think to yourself, I'm going to be leaving all of this for the unknown. I know when I was getting ready to leave, people (including my family members) thought that I was just absolutely out of my mind. They said why would you leave what you have? You have a great job, you're doing well at your firm (which I was), you have a job that many people would die to have. Why are you voluntarily giving this up? And it was again having the strength and courage to be like, this isn't for me. And it took years to get up that courage, it wasn't something that happened immediately. Jeena Cho: [00:28:21] And also I think that's where working with a coach is really helpful, because they're not going to have an agenda. "You have such a good thing going, why don't you just stay?" They're going to be unbiased and figure out what is it that you want, not what your friends think you should do or what your family thinks you should do. So I think that's the other benefit of working with a coach. Megan Boyd: [00:28:34] Yeah, absolutely. And that's where it's different than talking with friends or things like that, people who know you. Having somebody like a coach or a therapist, who is unbiased and who is not willing to put up with your crap, is really, really important. Not everybody can afford to hire a career coach or things like that, but I think finding somebody you can talk to, who will give you good advice is key. And honestly it's frightening; it was frightening for me because I didn't want my firm to know that I was thinking about leaving law practice. So I was initially very hesitant to even tell anybody, and it was actually the telling people once I got more comfortable with that idea that really got me thinking about other things that I could do. Because of course my experience was somewhat limited, but talking to other folks they said, have you thought about doing this, or have you thought about going here? And it was really sharing that with other people and hearing their feedback that convinced me that I could do it; that it was something that I could do, and that the world wouldn't end if I left. Jeena Cho: [00:29:45] And so much of that is thoughts that are not based in fact or reality. Megan Boyd: [00:29:48] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know I really loved the boss that I worked for at my firm, so much so that my friends would say, yeah if you can't be happy practicing law for him you can't really be happy practicing law. And I absolutely thought that that was true. And one of the things that was very stressful for me was leaving him, because he was great and he was so good to me. So that stressed me out, and I left and the world didn't end, and everything is fine. He's still practicing law and doing great, and has other associates and partners who work for him, and everything is fine. But again, when you're caught sort of in yourself and in your own head, that was something that also stressed me out. Money is a huge stressor for many people who want to leave the law but don't feel like they can because of finances. I wasn't a person who was in that position because I didn't really have a lot of loans from law school, I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to go to law school so I didn't have a lot of student loans. I hadn't bought a big house or a fancy car, I didn't have children in private school; I wasn't caught by the golden handcuffs. And so I felt that I had a lot more ability to do this than maybe some other lawyers did. But it still took preparation for me to leave. My job after I left traditional law practice was as a law clerk for a judge, and I made less than half of the money there that I made the year before. So that required looking at my finances and figuring out what am I spending extraneous money on that I don't really need to. And I found that there were a lot of things that I was doing and buying that I was doing and buying to make myself feel better. [00:32:49] I was justifying my retail therapy; I had worked so hard, I had been up late at the office many nights in a row preparing for this trial, and then it settled. So I'm going to go out and buy myself something to celebrate all the hard work I've put it in. And once you get to a place where you're happy with your job and happy in your life, you don't need that anymore. But for anybody who's thinking about leaving, obviously money is something that you have to think about. You have to start preparing for that ahead of time, reducing your debt or minimizing your expenses, or figuring out can my spouse maybe go back to work or go back to work full-time, and can we make this work in that way if I do this? I don't think for most lawyers it's something that you can just one day say I'm going to do this and immediately make that happen. Jeena Cho: [00:33:49] Megan, it was so nice having you on the show. For the listeners out there that want to connect with you, what are some of the ways they can connect with you? Megan Boyd: [00:33:51] I am pretty active on Twitter, my handle is @LadyLegalWriter. And I tweet about language and writing and travel, and other things that just really interests me. And anybody who is interested in chatting about leaving law practice or figuring out ways to find an area of law practice they really love and enjoy, can absolutely e-mail me. I'm happy to chat about it, because again I've done it and I think it always helps to talk to somebody who's done it before. And so my email address is boyd_megan@yahoo.com. Jeena Cho: [00:34:23] And Megan, my last question to you is this. The name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Megan Boyd: [00:34:31] To me, being a resilient lawyer means always learning from everything that you do. Whether it's law-based, learning from past mistakes that you've made, figuring out what you would do different in handling cases in the future. Or learning more about yourself as you go along in law practice, and figuring out what it is again that motivates you. What are the areas that you love, what are the areas that you don't love as much, and how can you figure out a way to develop a law practice in the traditional sense, or to move outside of a traditional law practice to find something that really makes you happy and brings you joy? Because now that I have that in my life, I realize how unhappy I was beforehand and how I would be so unhappy now if I were still in the area of practice and in the traditional law practice that I was in. So it's absolutely about figuring those things out, and being willing to take a chance and figure out what it is that really motivates you, and to move outside of what people think that you should be doing or should do into something that you love and that you want to do. Jeena Cho: [00:35:41] Great advice. Megan, thank you so much for joining me today. Megan Boyd: [00:35:44] Thank you Jeena. Closing: [00:35:44] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Dr. Kimberly Jarvis on to talk about career transition: opening up that internal dialogue and finding those next steps. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis is the CEO and Founder of All Career Matters, a consulting firm focused on leadership and team development. Kimberly has over 20 years' experience in career and leadership development coaching with individuals and groups from diverse backgrounds and industries. Leveraging her leadership experience in several different industries, Kimberly creates and delivers customized organizational, leadership and talent development initiatives aimed at improving individual and team performance and engagement. She specializes in implementing large-scale programs and initiatives geared toward people development. Kimberly's mission is to support leaders and teams with exceptional productivity and performance through practical strategies to enhance leadership and interpersonal skills. Topics Covered What someone who is unhappy at work should do to change the situation and start thinking and acting proactively. How someone should determine what aspects of their current work situation are not a fit and the difference between a change of career and a change of environment. How a career coach can help people that are going through these transitions. How people can assess future promotions/job changes with this knowledge as a foundation, and redefine their career by changing into a different niche rather than change their career altogether. Find out more on Kim at: AllCareerMatters.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:00:00] Thinking about what you do like about your current job and previous jobs and what you do not like is valuable, because sometimes people are in the wrong environment and they assume they have to change careers, when actually they just need to change environments. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Before we get into today's interview, I have a favor to ask. Making this podcast is all about relationships; cultivating relationships with the guests, and also relationships with you, the listeners. You probably know a lot about me, but I don't really know anything about you. So here's the favor: please head on over to JeenaCho.com. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com, backslash podcast and tell me a bit about you. Also, I'd love to know what you like about the show and what could be improved. On today's episode, I have Dr. Kimberly Jarvis. She is the CEO and founder of All Career Matters, a consulting firm focused on leadership and team development. Kimberly has over 20 years experience in career and leadership development, coaching with individuals and groups from diverse backgrounds and industries. Kimberly is a member of Forbes Coach's Counsel, and her career advice has been featured in Forbes, Barron's, CNBC, and Vogue. [00:01:49] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last two bonus episodes go back and check it out. That is from May 16th and May 30th. I always tell lawyers to start with just six minutes of meditation a day. Why six minutes? Because of course, that's how we keep track of our time. So I'm offering a program Mindful Pause, and its six minutes of daily mindfulness practice. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into a hectic schedule. Think of it as like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com or check out the show notes. And with that, here's Kimberly. Welcome Kim to the show, I'm so happy to have you. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:02:40] Thank you, I'm happy to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] Let's start by having you give us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:02:48] Great. So I am CEO and founder of Career Matters, which is an organization, a consulting firm that helps primarily leaders and teams to grow and develop. I'm focused on executive coaching, but also work with leaders on career transition as they're considering next steps in their career. Jeena Cho: [00:03:09] Great. So it's a career transition piece that I wanted to have you on the show for, because so often I talk to lawyers and they'll tell me something like, "I'm just really, really unhappy at my job but I don't know what else I should do." They don't know if it's a matter of finding another job, or leaving law altogether. And I think so much of that is because they're not really willing to even have that internal dialogue about the things that would make them happy. I know this is a big question to start with, but what should someone who is really unhappy at their job, what are the first two or three steps they should begin with? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:03:51] Well, and I think one of the things that's most important is recognizing that they're unhappy, and then being willing to change. Because many people who are unhappy just suffer through it, sometimes for years. So I think recognizing your feelings and thinking about how you can change the situation are really critical. One of the things that I think is really important to do in this process is think about what's making you unhappy specifically; is that your role, your day-to-day job responsibilities, or is your environment at work? The culture of the organization, your leader's style, your boss's style. I actually recommend that people write a list of the things that they're unhappy about, and assess which of those things relate to their role, which relate to the environment. So that they're taking the time to pinpoint what's making them happy, instead of just a generalized feeling of discontent. And then I encourage people to think about what's within their control, and what's outside of their control. So when you take that list, thinking about what are the things that you can control and influence, and focusing all of your attention on that. An example of this is a company that's going through rapid growth, sometimes that means rapid pace and rapid burnout, unless people are strategic about it. So rapid growth relates to your environment. [00:05:22] You can't control the growth of your company, unless you actively try to decrease that growth (which is not recommended at all) but you can control how you react to that pace. You can control what are you doing, what are the activities that are giving the best and biggest ROI, and what can you stop doing, to be more strategic and planful, and eliminate some things. Jeena Cho: [00:05:50] Yeah. It also seems like when, especially for lawyers that have really high billable hours and all they do is work, even the idea of job searching can be really overwhelming. Like they don't really have the time or the space to even look for another job. Advice for those lawyers? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:06:11] Well I think if you're unhappy, it has to be a priority. Just like taking care of yourself, I know you are focused a lot on wellness and mindfulness. People who are unhappy could do nothing and continue to live that way, or they could make it a priority and squeeze in the time that's needed to think about these things. And honestly, I think if you have a little bit of guidance and support it's not as overwhelming as it might seem without that. So a great mentor, a really good coach, somebody else who can be objective and help you think through these things, and maybe have you outline steps to take to move in a different direction would be recommended. Jeena Cho: [00:07:00] Yeah, I love that advice. You know, I often find that for some lawyers they get to a point and they go, you know I just don't think law is right for me. And of course that leads to tremendous feelings of guilt and uncertainty, because that's what they went to law school for. It was just such a huge commitment to get to where they're at, so the idea of doing something different is terrifying. And also because all they do is law, they don't even know the possibilities of different career choices that are out there. How should lawyers go about exploring their interests outside of law, how do you figure out what you should do with your life, what you should do when you grow up? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:07:46] Well I've worked with a lot of people who are lawyers, or even medical doctors, priests, honestly in my career who have spent a lot of time committing to a particular career path and tons of time in school, and it is difficult. But I think thinking about what you do like about your current job and previous jobs and what you do not like is valuable, because sometimes people are in the wrong environment and they assume they have to change careers, when actually they just need to change environments. So I think that's why when you're thinking through what are the things that are making you unhappy and do those relate to your role or to your environment, that's really an important piece. I've worked with many people who have come to me and said, "I have to change careers, I'm absolutely miserable." And when they tell me about what they're miserable about and it relates completely to the culture of their organization, I'll say, "What about what you do every day, your day-to-day job responsibilities," and if those responsibilities are things that they enjoy, that's a different situation than somebody who absolutely loves where they work, they love their boss but they're bored to tears by their day-to-day responsibilities. They're not challenged, they're not stimulated, or maybe they're over-challenged and stimulated by those activities. Or sometimes it's a matter of way too much quantity and not enough quality. So I think again, going back to what is it that is not working for you and being really specific about that. Because there might be a chance that you can still use your law degree and your background, but in a different way. Maybe in a different role or on different projects, or within a different organization that would value your experience but use your talent in a new way. So I think learning, everybody knows some jobs that really interest and excite them; everybody does, even people say, "I have no idea what I want to be." People know. I have not worked with one person in the thousands of people I've worked with who didn't know, after being pushed and probed, what they would actually like to do if they could do it and if there were no restrictions, based on finances or based on paradigms that they tell themselves or negative self-talk. Everybody has an idea of what they would be spending their time doing if they could and if there were no restrictions. [00:10:43] So I would think about those ideas that you've had in the past, the things that have bubbled up. What would you like to be doing and what is it about those things that you think you'd enjoy? How can you learn more about them, how can you connect to people who are in similar roles or do similar work and do informational interviews? 10 to 15-minute meetings, often on the phone. They don't have to be face-to-face, asking questions about what is a typical day like, how did you get to where you are, what would you recommend I do if I wanted to make a similar transition? How is my background preparing me or holding me back potentially from a role like this? So I think it involves taking a step back, and taking the time. And it doesn't have to be a lot of time, to think about what's not working specifically, and what would you like to have incorporated into your daily work or environment? What are the things that you think you'd enjoy doing, and how can you learn more about them? Jeena Cho: [00:11:48] How does a career coach help people that are going through these job transitions? What do they do specifically? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:11:56] So coaches are a great way to objectively help you assess your values, your goals, your skills, strengths, interests, knowledge, background. Skills that are transferable from job to job, help you to think about what do you need out of work, what has worked in the past and what hasn't worked. Help you think about a plan for next steps, so it's customized to your particular situation and to all of those things that we just talked about. Many coaches will include assessments to help people understand their personality type, their emotional intelligence, communication style preferences, so that they can better understand why things were not fit or why they're feeling uncomfortable in a particular role, and identify cultural variables that would be really important to them. Leadership styles that they may thrive under, and different kinds of opportunities that may offer that to them. So I think it's an objective source of feedback on some of the things that are difficult for you living in your life to take a step back and think about. And if you're working with a coach, you're also dedicating that time. And usually coaches structure work with clients, so that it's pretty regular and ongoing. And you're dedicating that time, you have homework after each of the sessions and things you're going to do before the next meeting that help you be accountable to the process and move forward. Jeena Cho: [00:13:41] Yeah, I've worked with various coaches over my career and I really found the homework, it's really the in-between time that I often get the most out of. And also I really enjoy working with a coach because the coach, they don't have an agenda. They come to you to serve you and figure out what would make you happy, give you that sense of contentment and belonging. Whereas talking to a friend or your spouse, they sort of have their own agenda, right? [00:14:14] So I found just having someone hold up a mirror and perhaps shedding some light on the blind spots, or helping me think about things in a different way. Like I knew that I really wanted to teach mindfulness and meditation to lawyers, but I was like wait, there's no job title for that. There's no job description, there's no degree that you can get where you become certified and they say, okay now are you're certified to go and do this thing. So I kind of knew what I wanted to do, but I had to figure out what that looks like for me. And then I figured out that there was a whole world of consultants that work with lawyers, and of course coaches that work with various professionals. And I went, oh! So I think that's the other thing that's important to keep in mind, when you're in this place of feeling stuck and you're just so happy, is that's how it is in this moment. But that doesn't mean it's permanent, it's subject to change. And I think often that working with a coach is really helpful from that perspective, because they help you to see, okay this is just where you're at. But you're making progress and progressing through it. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:15:31] Well and I think your point is great, because that discomfort is what encourages people to change. It's not until there's a certain level of discomfort that people will change. And so the misery involved in some of your situations, and we've all been miserable in jobs in the past. If you haven't, you're incredibly fortunate. But, that misery is what really is a catalyst to change. So it's a blessing in disguise in some ways, because it gets you out of those negative and toxic situations that aren't good. And I think your example about making this nitsch that didn't really exist is brilliant, because you've done this so well and you have filled a need and a gap that wasn't filled very well prior to you getting into that space. So I think it's a great example of, I'm sure that you told yourself at some point, "I can't do this, it doesn't exist." Like you said, there is no job description. So because nobody else has done it, I can't do this. Those are the kind of paradigms that coaches can help you identify and reframe into, it's because nobody has done this that I can be successful. Because there's a need, there's a gap there. Jeena Cho: [00:16:54] Yeah, and I think lawyers are really nicely positioned to do this. Like you can do family law, but you can also find a niche within family law where you do things your own unique way, and your clients are going to find you because you offer that thing that no one else offers. And I think with all the technology that's available, it's really easy to set yourself up and start your own business, or really carve out a life for yourself that I don't know would have been possible 20 or 30 years ago. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:17:32] Right, we're so fortunate in that respect. Jeena Cho: [00:17:36] Sometimes I work with lawyers and they're clearly going through some level of burnout and depression, but it's almost hard to tease out how much of that is a mental health issue and therefore they should see a therapist versus it's being in the wrong job and that's contributing to the burnout and the depression, and it's just a matter of finding a new job. Can you share your perspective on when it's appropriate to see a therapist versus working with a coach? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:18:11] What's interesting is there are some coaches who are clinically trained. So I'm a clinical social worker and am able to diagnose and treat mental illness, in addition to doing the more pragmatic and kind of practical approach to career coaching. But I think if you have an ongoing challenge with depression or anxiety or some of the common symptoms around that, like difficulty sleeping, lack of interest in things that usually would interest you, lack of motivation, being tired all the time. And some of these symptoms are things that you can experience just from being in a miserable work environment. I've experienced some myself working in a miserable environment, so it's hard sometimes to discern. But I think if you have a history of mental health issues, or if you have been medicated for mental health issues and you've had experience working with a therapist and that's been helpful, I would start with your therapist, if you aren't currently working with a therapist. If most of your challenges and concerns have stemmed from more, you've noticed align with a particular situation or work environment that you're in, or maybe a personal situation that you're struggling with in addition to challenges at work, a coach may be the best option for you. [00:19:47] Coaches will know when they have reached their limit on this, good coaches, and will know when to refer people to a therapist. And your coach and/or therapist may be able to work and encourage a referral to the other profession, and (with your permission) update each other. With the correct, signed, appropriate paperwork, update each other, the coach and the therapist, on your progress. So that's something that's a possibility as well. So I think I'd think about is this acute or is it chronic, and when did you notice these symptoms occurring? And it's not always super black and white like you said Jeena, and I think that strong coaches will understand when they need to refer. Jeena Cho: [00:20:44] You know, I know that as lawyers we really frown upon being vulnerable, or being perceived as weak in any way. But lawyers are still human beings, and we're subject to the human condition. Which includes things like burnout and depression, and being at jobs that aren't quite the right fit. So I really want to encourage the listeners out there, if you feel like you've done what you can, there's no shame in asking for help. If you're an athlete and you're training for the Olympics, of course you would have a coach. So it just seems very strange that there's this expectation that we should know how to manage our careers on our own without help, and somehow getting outside help is a signal of weakness or that you're flawed in some way. [00:21:44] I mean, I certainly felt that way at times. But now that I've seen for myself just the incredible benefits of having someone outside that can guide you and help you and just offer more tools, I really feel like that's one of the things that both coaches and therapists do, is to help you have more tools in your toolbox so the next time you come across a tricky situation or a similar situation, you go ah, I have a tool for that; let me pull it out and use it again. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:22:16] Right, and the stigma isn't just for lawyers. I think other people question whether or not you know.. and maybe it's the word "help." Help, I need help. And I would encourage you to reframe that from I need help to, I'd like another perspective; I'd like an objective opinion about my situation, I would like somebody to help hold me accountable, because I've had trouble focusing enough attention and energy to make a change. Which is common for people who are really busy and struggling just to get through the work week because of everything that they're juggling, families and jobs. So I would reframe it; it's not necessarily getting help, it's getting an extra opinion. It's getting like you said a new tool, to move you forward in the way that you'd like to move forward. Jeena Cho: [00:23:17] Yeah, I really like that reframing. Okay, so once someone does their homework and figures out what is it specifically about this particular job that's not working, what are the things that are working, what do you do with that knowledge? How do you then use that knowledge to find your next job that will be a better fit for you? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:23:40] Well I think that is absolutely critical knowledge that everyone should go through before they look for a new job, even if they're happy with their current job. And I think it's often not happening, but I've seen the ramifications of people not taking a step back and thinking about these things. Taking a promotion and then realizing, I didn't want to be here what am I doing?! I don't want to do this kind of work. Or leaving an amazing company for another company that is not a fit. So I think really carefully thinking about what's making you unhappy, do those things relate to your role or your environment, is an awesome foundation. Thinking about what you have liked and disliked in your current job, in previous jobs is a great foundation, so that you can then assess future opportunities. Whether it's an internal promotion or an external opportunity, against what's important to you and what you value. And then what I highly recommend doing is if you're looking outside or inside an internal promotion with a department that you don't have a lot of information on, do informational interviews with people within those organizations or departments, so you can get a better understanding of the culture of the team, the leader's style, how things operate, their strategy. And you can ask probing questions in informational interviews, those conversations will help you in the interview process. Because you'll have inside information that will help you when you're sharing with the interviewer what you know about the organization or that department. It will also help you assess whether or not that's a fit, right? And when you're in interviews, you can ask probing questions to assess aspects of the role and of the environment against what's important to you and your values. For me, strong, fair, and credible leadership is one of the absolute most important aspects of a new job. So I spend a lot of time talking to anyone that I can who currently works at a company, and get as much information as I can. And when I'm interviewing, I ask a lot of questions about those things that are important to me. And I will ask questions related to the manager's approach to leading the team, how they set strategy, how they support work-life fit, how they provide constructive and positive feedback. Because I've experienced leadership that does not do these things well, and I've learned from that and I've learned that I have to assess that in the future. I will ask, and I encourage people that I coach to ask, behavior-based interview questions. "Tell me about a time when you supported your team's work-life fit. What Happened, what was the result? Tell me about a time when you had to offer constructive feedback to someone who reported to you. How did you do that, what was the impact? Tell me about a time when you involved your team in setting the strategy for the next few years. How did you gather their input, and what was the impact on result?" [00:27:07] Because just like interviewers ask you behavior-based interview questions, because they're much harder to kind of BS (sorry, can't think of another way of putting it) your way through the answer. You can do the same with hiring managers, it's much harder for them to BS their way through that answer and to make something up on the fly. It's a lot easier to do that for questions like, so do you support work-life fit? Yeah, yeah I do. They have to tell a story, and that's why interviewers ask candidates behavior-based interview questions. Because past performance is an indicator of future performance, and it's one of the strongest indicators. Jeena Cho: [00:27:55] Well Kim, it was so nice having you on this show and thanks so much for sharing your wisdom with us. For the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about you and your work, what's the best place to do that? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:07] My website would be a good place to go, allcareermatters.com. Jeena Cho: [00:28:13] Great. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:14] And thanks for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:28:15] Thank you. And you also work with lawyers on career transitions? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:21] I do, I do not specialize in working with lawyers but I have worked with many lawyers who are focused on career transitions. I work with all industries and functions, primarily leadership level. Jeena Cho: [00:28:34] Great. And my final question to you is this: the name of the podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:28:45] I think resiliency is struggling and learning from that struggle, and making changes so that that struggle is less intense, less difficult. Also seeing failure or mistakes or dark times as an opportunity to grow and develop, not just as dark and failed times but an opportunity for you to continue to develop as a human being, and incorporate new strategies into your daily work. Jeena Cho: [00:29:23] Great. Kim, thank you again so much for joining me. Dr. Kimberly Jarvis: [00:29:27] Thank you. Closing: [00:29:32] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
Hello! A short request for listener feedback. Doing a podcast can feel very lonely, like speaking into the void. Yet, there were almost 7,000 of you that listened last month! (Wow!) Please drop me an email and let me know what conversations you're wanting to hear. What "necessary conversations" aren't being had? Email: hello@jeenacho.com or use the form in this link: http://jeenacho.com/podcast/ Check out this episode!
We're launching Mindful Pause on June 4th. Join me for 31 days of mindfulness practice. For the first time ever, you'll get access to both the Mindful Pause program AND the Mindful Lawyers Community. Register over at Mindful Pause and use the discount code "Podcast50" to save $50 off of registration. You can find more information here: http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause-2/
In this episode, I am excited to have Nefra MacDonald on to talk about how awareness of one's emotions can revolutionize your presence and how you communicate with others. Nefra MacDonald is the Business Development and Strategic Partnership Coordinator at Rocket Matter. After working in various capacities at law firms, corporations, and non-profit organizations, she decided to use her experience to help address the pain points that practicing lawyers feel every day. She currently co-chairs Rocket Matter's Product Advisory Committee, which serves as a source of targeted feedback for the company's product improvement strategy. Her passion for wellness has also led to heavy involvement in producing more wellness programming for lawyers, including Rocket Matter's Legal Wellness Retreat, where I will also be presenting. Topics Covered Nefra talks on how personal hardships changed her path from being a law student working at a firm, to where she is now helping other lawyers balance their life with mindfulness. How Kundalini Yoga helped her to be more present, more aware of her emotions, and how she uses that awareness to better control her emotions rather than the opposite. She talks about how she expresses those negative emotions to others and allows herself to feel it rather than bury it deep down. Common pain points with lawyers, work/life balance issues, and wellness and mindfulness issues, such as the inability to disconnect from work without feeling anxiety and trying to manage staff. Find out more on Nefra at: Twitter Legal Productivity podcast Links mentioned: Rocket Matter's Legal Wellness Retreat- save $100 off registration for the conference with the discount code "JEENALWR18" Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Nefra MacDonald: [00:00:12] I need to show up for myself first, every single day before I can be of service to anyone else. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:43] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Today I have Nefra MacDonald, she is the business development and strategic partner coordinator at Rocket Matter, and she has worked in various capacities at law firms, corporations, and non-profit organizations, and she decided to use all of her experiences to help lawyers address their pain points that they feel every day. She is currently the co-chair at Rocket Matter's Product Advisory Committee, which serves as a source of targeted feedback for the company's product improvement strategy. Her passion for wellness has also led her to be heavily involved in producing more wellness programs for lawyers, including Rocket Matter's Legal Wellness retreat, where I will also be a presenter so I'm looking forward to talking about that. And with that, here's Nefra. Nefra, welcome to the podcast. Nefra MacDonald: [00:01:33] Thank you so much Jeena, it's great to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:01:36] So I want to just jump right in, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is how'd you decide to go from going to law school to be a lawyer, and to take a different path. So can you share your experience on how you went from going to law school with the intention of becoming a lawyer, to becoming a business development strategist at Rocket Matter. Nefra MacDonald: [00:02:03] Yeah, so when I decided to go to law school I was actually already working at a law firm; I was working at a local personal injury law firm in South Florida. And I started to see ways that I could benefit other people; I've got all these skills, I'm a really great people person, and being able to take my education and give people access to justice was something that really excited me. So I applied to law school, I got into the University of Miami, I got into their dual degree program for music business, because my dad was a musician. And I thought man, that would also be a great way to help with the family business. So it was so multi-faceted, really exciting time. And then I started my first year, and all of the lawyers that are listening to that, I'm sure you've got your favorite first year memories, probably the first time you got cold-called on or something like that, that sends a shudder through your spine. But for me, that wasn't the most traumatic thing about my first year. A few weeks into my first semester of law school, I found out that my father was diagnosed with lung cancer, pretty late stage. And it was really, really difficult. And his biggest ask of me was, "Just keep going, just keep going; focus on what you have to do there, and I'll focus on what I have to do here." And that worked for a few weeks, and then things started to get really bad as he started to go through treatment. [00:03:37] He had a heart attack one night after chemo, and it was just one thing after another that his health just continued to deteriorate, for the reasons of the cancer and other things. And it was very hard to stay focused at school, you know I'm getting updates from home in the middle of class. And of course emotions take over, and your classmates are interpreting that as, oh she can't handle law school. And really, in reality if I'm being completely honest, it was like I can't handle this and my life. But I didn't know what to do or what to reach for, I didn't have very good coping mechanisms at the time, and things just started to take their toll. I lost a ton of weight, I was completely anxious all the time, I was shaky and really just depressed. I was in complete auto-pilot, and I knew that if I'm going to make it here, nobody can see these emotions; nobody can see me struggling, I just have to keep going. And I know that a lot of people can empathize with that feeling, especially in this profession. Showing any sign of weakness, it's an opportunity for opposing counsel to prey on you; you feel like prey. And showing weakness doesn't exactly inspire confidence when you're dealing with clients and people that are paying you to get them a certain result. So how do we build up some of those skills and some of those coping mechanisms to combat that? Well I had no clue, and I didn't really have a whole lot of resources. [00:06:38] The only resource that was available to me at that time was our school counseling center. So I went to the counseling center and I was seeing a psychologist and a psychiatrist, we came up with a treatment plan and I was a guinea pig. I was on all sorts of medications that weren't really making me productive or focused, I was losing a lot of sleep, all sorts of fun stuff, and just trying to get through classes. So law school in general, those few years were actually really difficult for me. My dad passed away my second year, and things with my family did not get much better after that, things actually were just getting started. So I don't think I was ever fully present during that time. And it wasn't until after I walked across the stage that I realized, maybe this isn't for me; maybe I'm not cut out for this. Maybe this kind of lifestyle is demanding too much of me for where I am right now. And I started to get on the path of taking good care of myself, because I knew that no matter what I decided to do, I needed to just feel better to approach it from a place of clarity. And so I started to dive into some self-help books, I started to work with a life coach who pointed me in the direction of resources that could really help to shift the way that I was approaching getting control of my own life. I'd been living my life for other people for a really long time, and you take on other people's problems. [00:08:01] And that really distracts from you focusing on what might be coming up for you, and how you show up for yourself. So the biggest lesson I learned out of that time was: A. I never want to get back to that kind of dark place that I was in, and B. I need to show up for myself first every single day, before I can be of service to anyone else. So I just started to dive into tools that could really help me do that. And one thing that has totally changed the way that I live my life and the way that I am mindful and present in the moment is meditation. And I've experimented with all kinds of meditation over the years, most recently I've been diving into Kundalini meditation. Which is a little weird for some people, it was a little weird for me at first too. I mean, the first time I saw somebody doing Breath of Fire and teaching someone how to do it, they were sticking their tongue out of their mouth and panting like a dog, and I was like oh my God there's no way I can do this. But really, you start to feel shifts and it's kind of a great new addiction. It's the healthiest thing that I've done for myself, and I'm more aware now of my emotions than I've ever been. And that awareness helps me to manage them and control them, and not get sucked down the rabbit hole of negative thoughts, or experience periods of really high anxiety or stress. I can really bring myself back to center fairly quickly because I'm so aware of what's happening now. Jeena Cho: [00:09:32] Yeah, I love that point you made about being aware of your emotions, because I find that so many lawyers are afraid of their emotions. So they just think, oh if I just disconnect and not feel them.. of course you still feel them. It's not like the emotions disappear just because you go, oh it doesn't exist; I'm going to deny its existence. So when you're working on coming more in touch with your emotions through mindfulness and meditation, how did that help you to actually.. because I think one of the things people are afraid of is that they're going to react from that place of emotion. So if you feel anger you're going to react in anger, which is actually very different than allowing yourself to feel it. So how did mindfulness actually help you to become more familiar with your emotions? And then how did that change or shape how you manage and express your emotions to others? Nefra MacDonald: [00:10:26] Yeah, so when a negative emotion comes up there's a feeling in your body that happens. And when you're doing certain meditations, well most meditations actually, you're bringing awareness not only to your breath, but to the feelings that are coming up in your body. Whether it's pain or discomfort or tightness, or if you're taking really short breaths as opposed to deeper breaths, any sort of illness you might be feeling; you really become so aware of what is happening in your body. And because of that, you know that those things may have an influence on how you react. They may be making you more irritable, and having that time to not judge what's happening but just notice what's happening allows you to also in the day-to-day life notice what's happening without judging it. We're really quick to react because we're being forced to judge something and say this out of it. When you're just taking a step back, being fully present, seeing what might be triggering you in the moment to maybe be angry or upset or cry. And say I'm not going to judge this, but what is this? What is it bringing up for me, and how does this really make me feel? I know I feel angry, but what else could this be? Especially in the context of interpersonal relationships, like when you're dealing with a boss or a co-worker or opposing counsel or a judge or your client, what else could this be? What could they be going through that's causing them to express themselves in this way, and how can you react from a place of kindness and love? And the thought process seems really long, but actually when you're sitting in that place constantly, at some point in your day (whether it's for six-minute increments, I know Jeena trains her lawyers to do, or 10 minutes or 20 minutes or however long your practice is) when you're practicing, doing that every single day, it's easier to do it moment by moment. To temper those reactions, to not ignore how you're feeling but also just asking yourself to approach it in a different way, and to choose differently than you normally would. And it starts to feel really good, it becomes a part of your practice. [00:12:41] But getting back to how I got to Rocket Matter, after I started doing some of this deep work I started to ask myself what kind of work I wanted to do. And I fell into a job at a healthcare technology company, and I really loved tech. I loved still being able to do the legal side of things, as far as helping with forming the corporation and doing minutes for board meetings. I worked under an attorney to help with due diligence for acquisitions and all of that really fun stuff. And there were certain parts of it that I really enjoyed, but the environment was very high stress; it was still a lot of the same. And I was also working with people that were not very good for me, they were very toxic people. So those two things were not good, I was still attracting some of that chaotic environment into my life. And so I needed to figure out a way out of that. So I started to think about what I really wanted out of a work environment, what I really wanted out of a job, how I wanted to grow. And I wanted to work with like-minded people who were passionate about what they do, who really wanted to help people. I wanted to get the opportunity to lead and to teach, and to expand my skills in new ways. And some of my skills, I went to undergrad for broadcast journalism and I really loved public speaking, so I also wanted those kinds of opportunities. And I thought to myself, if it happens it happens, but you never know. And I was working with a temp agency that I used during law school to find those rare paying jobs, and Rocket Matter had a position open. And so I got the call and it was supposed to be a two-week assignment, and then it got extended to another four weeks, and then our CEO Larry created a position for me. And it was something that they never had before. But I basically get to play a little bit in our product world, where I take feedback from our lawyers and hearing some of the things that they're going through day to day that are super painful, and figuring out how we can take our technology and develop it in a way that it eases that pain point. So they have more time to build, to develop their business, to become more profitable. I also was working in our customer success department, so helping our customers and training them. And I got the really cool experience to go back to my home country (I'm from Trinidad, and I got to go to Trinidad) and train an all-female law firm how to use Rocket Matter. They also wanted to go paperless, so help them develop their paperless protocols. So that was a really cool experience. And then last year I transitioned to our marketing department, where I get to work on our strategic partnerships with integration partners, that can also be really helpful to our clients. And then I also teach our CLE's and webinars every month, I host our podcast occasionally. So I'm getting to use all of these skills that I really love, I've gotten the opportunity to grow, I DO work with like-minded people, and because of my own experience and the things that I've done, I get to bring some wellness aspects to what I do at work. [00:16:14] I'm the girl at work that's diffusing essential oils and doing meditations at 4:00, but that's who I am and I'm proud of it. And I work at a place that embraces that, so it's been pretty amazing. But there's a lot to be said about what you can do when you approach things from a place of being centered, and what you can actually manifest in your life once you focus on core qualities that you need more of in your life. I've been able to achieve that over time, and be patient and allow it to happen, as opposed to stressing about it. So it's been great, it's been really good. Jeena Cho: [00:17:00] What are some of the common pain points that you hear from lawyers? Nefra MacDonald: [00:17:06] Oh man, there are so many. Jeena Cho: [00:17:08] Maybe we can narrow in on some (and I hate this term) work-life balance issues, and sort of overall wellness or well-being issues that they struggle with. Nefra MacDonald: [00:17:24] Yeah, one of the biggest things that I hear all the time is feeling like they can't disconnect. That even if they're on vacation or they need to take a day off, they have to be tuned in to what's happening in the office. Otherwise they can't feel right about taking time off, especially if they're the only managing partner at the firm where they've got associates under them that aren't well-trained, or staff that's not as reliable as they should be, it makes those things a whole lot more stressful. And I know from your story, you couldn't take vacations either Jeena, without feeling super anxious. So it's something that isn't completely uncommon, but one of the things that we try to help our attorneys with is understanding some of the mechanics behind running a business, and how those things can help you disconnect. So if you have processes and procedures in place for how things should go, and you've got a way that you can check in on those things very quickly and from a bird's eye perspective, that might be one way that you can take a break and maybe set aside 20 minutes a day to check in and just take a look at your practice management software. And you can see how many outstanding tasks there are, how much time your associates have billed, or whether certain phone calls got made or certain e-mails got sent. It's all from one central location, and if you're utilizing the tools properly (like utilizing our project management features) you can see when things are past due or the statute of limitations is coming up, and all of those things can really help to give you peace of mind. If you're not going to be missing a deadline, it's totally okay for you to take a break for a week and spend time with your family, spend time with yourself, and not really worry about what's going on at the firm. Because you've done the hard work of making sure that things can run without you being there every second. The other thing that I hear a lot about too is trying to manage staff. When we're in law school, we don't learn how to manage others. Jeena Cho: [00:20:03] There are so many things we don't learn in law school! Nefra MacDonald: [00:20:04] Oh gosh, yes. But aside from not knowing how to track your time and what you can actually bill clients for and all of that good stuff, how to manage others. And it comes in two perspectives: one is having unrealistic expectations of your staff, how much work can they really handle and creating the opportunity to have a constructive conversation about it. So if you're delegating a ton of stuff to your support staff and they're not getting it done in a timely fashion, you may want to blame it on laziness or lack of skills or what have you, but a lot of the times it's because they don't have the support they need; in terms of training, in terms of processes, in terms of support, and they may not feel like communication is open to be able to come and tell you these things. So we also direct our users to really utilize the software to take a look at productivity reports, to take a look at task reports and see, okay if you've delegated something to someone, how long is it taking them to get things done? And how much do they really have on their plate? Is that reasonable? [00:21:24] And being able to look at those things and then have a conversation with someone to ask what it is they can handle and what they can't, that stuff's really important. And then mindfulness also comes into play here, because if you've got your own stuff going on, like you've got a sick child at home and a ton of deadlines and you've got trial in two weeks, you may be feeling a certain level of stress. And if you haven't checked in with that and somebody comes to you with a problem or there's a screw up that happens with one of your staff members and you need to address it, you may address it in a way that is not from a place of kindness or love. And that can really blow up and it can really affect the relationship and the dynamic in your office. If you're taking the time to be aware of where you are and then addressing the problem, you can address it from a place of compassion and also understanding what's happening with that. And it's more constructive that way, you can be a part of the solution as opposed to expressing anger and frustration, and not really getting things anywhere because now that person's upset. Jeena Cho: [00:22:39] It's like working on processes and streamlining everything, and utilizing technology but also working on actually developing some of these tools and to be able to manage stress and anxiety. And I think those two things actually sort of feed on each other, even though we may not necessarily think about it. Like if your mind is constantly going 150 mph and you're constantly distracted, having all of the processes in place probably won't help you because your mind is just not available to actually pay attention to those things, so it's almost like you... Nefra MacDonald: [00:32:41] Yeah, you don't have the bandwidth. Jeena Cho: [00:32:42] Right, yeah. And I love that point you made about knowing what your limitations are, and I think having a system where you can see exactly what your capacity is is really helpful. Because if you're going on feel or a memory, it's probably not going to be all that accurate because it's just going be how you're feeling in that moment. Nefra MacDonald: [00:32:57] Yeah, that's not real business intelligence. We're able to give people actual numbers and things that they can act on from a place of knowing what's actually going on. And if everyone is trained and using the system in the right way, you have the ability to make intelligent business decisions. Like hiring more staff or bringing in somebody twice a week to help with billing, or hiring a temporary file clerk; you can see where the bottlenecks are in your office and how it's putting stress on the system itself, and come up with solutions that can work temporarily, until you can figure out a more permanent way to tighten up those processes. Business is an iterative process; you're constantly looking at it and finding ways to improve. And I think it's also analogous to the way we should be living our lives. Like I am so comfortable always being a work in progress, because I just know how much more full my life is going to continue to be because I think that way. It should make you really hopeful for your business too, in knowing that there's always going to be a way for you improve. And it doesn't have to happen all at one time right now, but it can happen over time and you'll get to experience and see that growth and enjoy it. Jeena Cho: [00:34:07] Right, I think it's that ability to hold both. So being okay where you are right now and accepting things just as they are, and also being open to the possibility of something more, something better, being a slightly better version of yourself or even having your business be where it is now, but also recognizing that that's a temporary state. That's not how it's always going to be, and that you can actually work on improving it over time. [00:34:32] So as we mentioned before, Rocket Matter is hosting its first legal wellness retreat. Some people might be like, oh they're a technology company why are they doing a wellness retreat? So tell us about the idea behind the wellness retreat, and what your goals are. Nefra MacDonald: [00:34:46] Yeah, so Rocket Matter as a company, our values have always been aligned with health and wellness. It's actually one of our cultural pillars internally, so we do a lot of wellness programming for our employees. We have a gym upstairs on our second floor, we do company picnics with tons of sports, we had a meditation expert come in and train the entire company on meditation, and it opened a lot of people up to the practice that weren't familiar with it before. But it's really a company where people can try to find that balance for themselves, and we always want to provide those tools to our employees. [00:35:20] It ties into our attorneys as well and our customers, because they're a part of our extended Rocket Matter family. And when our firms are doing well, so are we. And there is this really big problem that we're aware of, in terms of depression and anxiety, suicide rates, substance abuse problems, and just people not really enjoying the practice of law anymore. And the Florida Bar has been doing so much this year, in terms of studies and surveys. And there are a significant portion of the attorney population that, if they could do anything else with their lives, they would not be practicing law. Hi, living example. So how do we shift the culture, how do we make a change? And we want to be a part of that, we want to give people ways to really reframe the way they look at lawyering and running their businesses and practicing law. And what is it like to be in the same room with someone who is highly stressed versus someone who brings a little bit more peace and centeredness? It really does shift the energy and the dynamic, in terms of negotiations, in terms of how you deal with clients, in terms of how you deal with your staff, and how things are with your family. And we see that with our own employees, and because our customers are our extended family, we want to bring some of that knowledge and awareness to them as well. So that was how the idea for the legal wellness retreat was born. [00:36:42] We want to bring aspects of wellness in terms of your mind, your body, financial wellness for your firm, practice management and processes; all of those things will be topics that we discuss at the retreat. So attendees will be able to get those hours of CLE's in the morning. But it's also going to be mixed in with programming to help you tune in, like in the morning you can run one of the trails or you can do yoga in the afternoon. We'll have activities that you can take part in in the beautiful mountains of western Massachusetts, which are just so stunning, stuff like ropes courses or hiking one of the trails, canoeing on the Housatonic River; there's so many beautiful, beautiful parts of nature that you can experience and connect with. So it's a really great chance to do a mix of both. You get those CLE credits, you get some time in nature, a lot of our attendees will be bringing their families so they can spend some time with them and extend the trip through the weekend. But there's gorgeous food and culture and views, and it's going to be a really awesome experience. We're really glad that Jeena is going to be there to share her tips for mindfulness and take our attendees through some practices they can take home with them. And that's what we want too; we want people to have action items to take home with them. We want to continue to be your accountability partner once you leave the retreat. So any insights that you get, any next steps that you come up with, we want to be able to check in with our attendees and see how it's going, offer support and make sure that the experience is actually transformative in one way or another for them. Jeena Cho: [00:38:17] I love it, and I'm really looking forward to it. So the dates are July 18 through the 20th. And for the listeners out there that want to learn more about the retreat, where's the best place for them to do that? Nefra MacDonald: [00:38:29] So they can go to legalwellnessretreat.com, and from there you can see a list of our speakers, our agenda, and be able to register for the conference. Jeena Cho: [00:38:38] Great. So once again, that's legalwellnessretreat.com. All of this information will be in the show notes. And for my listeners, there is a $100 discount code that you can use, it's "J-E-E-N-A-L-W-R-1-8." And again, all of this information will be in the show notes. Nefra, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your wisdom with the listeners. Nefra MacDonald: [00:38:50] It's been my pleasure and honor, thank you guys so much. Closing: [00:38:52] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
How would you like to improve your legal practice and increase your well being, in only 6 minutes per day? I can show you how to build a more sustainable, peaceful and productive law practice with just a tiny investment of your time. I'm excited to introduce you to my new online course, "Mindful Pause: 6 Minutes to Better Lawyering." Learn more and register here. Who is Mindful Pause for? It's for lawyers who want to find a better way to create a more sustainable, joyful, and fulfilling law practice. Often, we as lawyers are not taught healthy behaviors or tools for managing the stress, anxiety, and daily pressures we face. Mindful Pause will create an accessible and enjoyable entry into practices that can reduce anxiety, improve focus and clarity, and enrich the quality of life. [Learn more]
In this episode, I am excited to have Neha Sampat on to talk about Imposter Syndrome: the mindset and culture that plagues lawyers. Neha Sampat is CEO, founder, coach, and consultant at GenLead|BelongLab, where she focuses on building belonging and true inclusion. Through consulting, training, speaking, and writing, she helps organizations create peak-performance, inclusive teams by addressing hidden barriers to belonging, such as Imposter Syndrome and internalized bias, unconscious bias, and generational diversity. Through professional development coaching, she helps her individual clients develop job situations and leadership styles that engage their true and best selves. Neha practiced law at both large and boutique law firms, and later joined law academia as dean of students and adjunct professor of law and leadership. She brings to her consulting and coaching practice her experience supporting and supervising thousands of diverse students and staff members and also successfully collaborating with stakeholders of various generations. Topics Covered Neha kicks off the episode defining Imposter Syndrome, how to overcome and handle feelings of Imposter Syndrome, and how resilience and Imposter Syndrome/self-doubt are connected. How the professional creates a culture that feeds Imposter Syndrome, why lawyers are at increased risk for Imposter Syndrome, and how being a good lawyer isn't about knowing all the answers, but rather knowing where to look for and find the answers. With the stakes and sense of perfectionism being so high for lawyers, Neha talks about what lawyers can do to reduce instead of feed Imposter Syndrome in themselves and in the profession. Find out more on Neha at: www.genlead.co neha@genlead.co To stay informed on Neha's programming and receive future discounts and free resources, sign up here. Links mentioned: www.facebook.com/belonglab "Individual Costs and Losses Resulting from My Self-Doubt" worksheet from Owning Your Value online course - This worksheet will help you assess the impact of your own self-doubt and Imposter Syndrome so that you can appropriately address it and notice significant positive outcomes in your career and life. GenLead|BelongLab is thrilled to bring its top-rated "Owning Your Value - Lawyers Edition" workshop online to provide greater access to their transformative tools. If you are tired of the anxiety, paralysis and isolation that comes with self-doubt and are eager to feel more confident in your competence, this course is for you. Neha has generously offered a 15% discount to the first 15 listeners who register for the course! Use the discount code "RESILIENTLAWYERPODCAST" at checkout. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Neha Sampat: [00:00:10] Being a good lawyer doesn't mean having all the answers, it means knowing where to find the answers. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode I have Neha Sampat, who is the CEO, founder, coach, and consultant at GenLead Belong Lab, where she focuses on building belonging and true inclusion. Through consulting, training, speaking, and writing, she helps organizations create peak performance and inclusive teams by addressing hidden barriers to belonging, such as Imposter Syndrome, internalized bias, unconscious bias, and generational diversity. Through professional development coaching, she helps her individual clients develop job situations and leadership styles that engage their true and best selves. [00:01:25] But before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode please go check it out. I shared a short, six-minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause, which is just 31 days of six-minute practice daily. I know for so many of us, finding time is always a challenge. So I wanted to create a course that would be easily accessible for every busy lawyer. So head on over to JeenaCho.com, or you can also click on the show notes. And with that here's Neha. Neha, welcome to the show. Neha Sampat: [00:02:02] Jeena, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate all the work you do. I read your book, I've learned so much from you, and I really appreciate having you in my life; both my personal life and my professional life. Jeena Cho: [00:02:16] Yeah and I'm just so delighted to have you on the show because we're friends, and it's always nice to invite friends on the show. Especially when they're doing amazing work in the world. To get us started, can you just tell us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do? Neha Sampat: [00:02:36] You're asking me to do 30 seconds, that is not my forte but I'll give it a shot. Okay, so I am a lawyer by training but I'm a master of career transformation myself. So I practiced law out of law school, kind of just going with the flow, and then really exercising more agency over my career, realizing what my values were or what my causes were. And my cause is really education. So I used all of my education to then switch into the field of education, to do what felt like a better fit for me. So I practiced education law for a while, and then I was Dean of Students and an Adjunct Professor of Law and Leadership at a law school for ten years. And after that, I transformed my career into what I'm doing now, which is running my own inclusion leadership development, professional development business. And I am probably more aligned, values-wise, with regard to my work and my life. [00:03:33] It's funny, there's like that blur between work and life has become more and more blurry. And in many ways, that tells me I'm doing the right thing. So I am loving what I'm doing, and I get to help other folks develop career situations in which they also sense that alignment; they have that alignment. And then I help organizations, through my consulting and training and workshopping and inclusion and belonging issues, create cultures where the folks that work there can really bring their true and best selves. Jeena Cho: [00:04:03] So I know part of that work involves working with the Imposter Syndrome. To kind of get us oriented, what is Imposter Syndrome exactly? Neha Sampat: [00:04:16] Imposter Syndrome is the feeling that you're not cut out for the work you're doing or the work you want to be doing, combined with the fear of being found out as feeling a fraud. And often these feelings of not being cut out for the work you're doing, they're not actually supported by objective facts. And so that's the interesting part, that's where I get to get in there and help my clients and my students, the folks I work with, really be lawyers and look at all of the facts and try to see what the whole picture provides. And Imposter Syndrome is an area of passion for me because I experienced it. It's actually not uncommon at all for anyone to experience it, but particularly marginalized populations, women and minorities tend to experience it at a greater incidence because it's a form of internalized bias. So for me, this has been a journey in my own life and in my own profession, and it's become an area where because I've seen my own trajectory and my client's trajectory in overcoming it through some of the tactics that I've developed, it's become a growing area in my work. Jeena Cho: [00:05:30] How did you become interested in this topic of Imposter Syndrome? Neha Sampat: [00:05:36] I think really experiencing it myself. And you know, I really experienced it probably the first time it really tremendously negatively affected me was my first year of law school. I had always done well overall in schooling, up until I went to law school. I went straight from undergrad to law school, and I showed up at law school having really no community of people around me who could give me a real idea of what it meant to be a lawyer, or what it meant to be in law school. I didn't have any family friends that had been to law school, whereas many of my classmates had not only had family members who were lawyers or family friends who were lawyers, but they had actually spent the prior summer working in a law office. And so I showed up to orientation and my classmates were speaking in what felt like a foreign language to me. They were using all this legal lingo and I had no idea what these terms meant, and it freaked me out. I really felt something was wrong with me, like why don't I know what that means? Everyone else seems to know it. Something's wrong with me. Why am I here? I don't belong here, intellectually or competency-wise. That's where I think Imposter Syndrome fits into my work, and the grander scheme of my work in building belonging. Imposter Syndrome is pretty much the feeling or the experience of not belonging, competency-wise. [00:07:05] So when I was in my first year of law school, I felt like I was not smart enough to be there, that I was a fraud. That I somehow had been let in, but I was not cut out for this, and I struggled. And I totally did what I shouldn't have done but what most people with Imposter Syndrome do, and I hid out. I literally hid out; I stayed in my apartment thinking, I've got to figure all this out by myself. Instead of actually asking my professors for help, admitting that I was struggling and that I was feeling doubtful of my ability. And so I didn't actually know what Imposter Syndrome was. It was only probably a decade later that I heard this term Imposter Syndrome. And at that point, it had done a tremendous amount of damage. For me, I think it held me back from a lot of opportunities that led me to self-sabotage. Probably the worst thing is it created a tremendous amount of anxiety that I carried with me in isolation because I didn't want people to know that I was feeling like I wasn't cut out for this. So I was really isolated, and so I only realized that in retrospect. Once I realized that these feelings we're called Imposter Syndrome, it was like this huge sigh of relief. I was like, this thing is so widely experienced that it's actually called a syndrome. You mean, I'm not the only one feeling this way?! And I literally remember my body just kind of like, ahh relaxing. And that was a pivotal moment for me. [00:08:37] And I didn't realize at the time, it's only with digging deeper into my past that I see that I actually did develop a skill set in law school to try to address my Imposter Syndrome that allowed me to move forward from it. But when I started to really understand what Imposter Syndrome was, maybe a decade later, then I could really dig even deeper to look at the research on what creates this self-doubt. And to really figure out even more effective tactics to address it, not just within myself but within the legal profession. Jeena Cho: [00:09:12] I would imagine some of the listeners that go, "Oh yeah I have that. I have that thing, that nagging voice inside my head that's constantly telling me I'm not good enough, smart enough, and unless you win absolutely everything you're a terrible lawyer," and on and on and on, that narrative that goes.. Neha Sampat: [00:09:32] Yeah it reinforces itself, that's what's so terrible about it. I probably had the seed of Imposter Syndrome when I was a kid and I did poorly in math. This is an example I give to a lot of my students, I did poorly in math probably on one or two tests when I was in elementary school. And the teacher said to my parents, "Oh Neha struggles in math." And I was like oh my gosh, that means I'm just bad at math and I'm always going to be bad at math. And then every time I took a math test I remember feeling so anxious and nervous, because I was like, "Oh no it's a test in math, and I'm terrible at math. I'm totally going to mess this up." And you better believe that that anxiety then limits our ability to perform. So then of course, I probably didn't do my best on those math tests. And then my outcome on the test reinforced that narrative that I'm terrible at math. So it's like it just feeds itself. Jeena Cho: [00:10:33] Yeah. So how do we break that cycle, once you sort of realize that thing that I'm doing is the Imposter or the inner critic, or whatever you want to call it. How do you begin to work with it? Neha Sampat: [00:10:50] I think recognizing what it is is probably one of the hardest things to do, but one of the most impactful ways to actually address it. Because when you can accept that there is this thing called Imposter Syndrome and start to consider that it might be what underlies some of your self-doubts, that's when you can start to dispel some of those voices in your head. And quite frankly, often those voices in our head are not our own voices. If we dig deep, we realize that they're the voice of a teacher. Like for me, it was the voice of a teacher with regard to the math. Or it could be the voice of a parent. It could be the voice of a mentor, it could be the voice of a peer. There are all these different voices that internalize within our brains, kind of take root within our brains. These messages telling us we're not good enough, and this is where it ties to the whole discrimination piece. You know, fairly innocuous comments, seemingly innocuous comments made to women, such as, "Oh can you take notes at this meeting?" [00:12:01] Or, "Oh you got into law school during the Affirmative Action era." Those sort of things, and it's even in the tone in how those messages are delivered, those are biases that once they get pushed upon you enough, you start to internalize those biases. So that's how these voices, sometimes voices of discrimination become Imposter Syndrome. And so when we can accept one, that it's not our voice, I think that's an important way to address it. Because if it's not your voice, then what does your voice tell you about your ability? Right? Like, that's not my voice, let me push that out of my head. Now, what do I know about my own abilities? And really start to take stock, looking at our past accomplishments. So one exercise I have folks do who are struggling with Imposter Syndrome is to think about the accomplishments in their lives of which they're the most proud. And it doesn't have to be a professional accomplishment, it can be a personal accomplishment. And to dig into that accomplishment. Why are they proud of that accomplishment? What are the skills and traits and experiences they have that led to that accomplishment? [00:13:14] And then, just look at those skills. So then stop looking at the accomplishment for a moment, just look at those skills, those traits, and those experiences. And think about how they make you uniquely qualified in an area where you might actually be having Imposter Syndrome. Imposter Syndrome can manifest as the belief that.. like for me when I started my coaching business I had spent 10 years effectively serving as a coach (although it just wasn't called a coach) for thousands of diverse law students. And I had a staff that I worked with. But when I joined the coaching profession more officially, when I started my own business and called myself a consultant and a coach, I didn't have a "coaching certification". And so sometimes I started to experience Imposter Syndrome. I remember I had a prospective client contact me, interested in talking to me about how I could help them as a coach. And this prospective client was in a different area of practice than what I had coached in the past, this was not a lawyer. And I started to feel that stress and anxiety I feel when I have Imposter Syndrome. [00:14:34] So my familiarity, when I start to feel these feelings of anxiety when I start to go down a rabbit hole of research.. Which is what I did, I started researching this person's industry. I was Google searching everything I could about this industry. I know now that when I start to go down that rabbit hole of research, that's usually a sign of my Imposter Syndrome. So then I can start to start to address it and be like, is this belief that I'm not cut out to be this person's coach accurate? And then I start to look at my skills, my traits, and experiences. [00:15:11] So what I was doing was I was questioning my ability, because I hadn't taken the traditional path to coaching, or what I saw was the traditional path to coaching. I didn't have a coaching certificate, I had done something different. And instead of seeing myself as uniquely qualified to coach this person, I saw myself as not qualified. And so what I started to do was look at my past experience. I was like, well let me look at myself more objectively. What are some of my accomplishments in my past? Let me think about some of the students I worked with, let me think about why people feel impacted by me when I've worked with them and helped them develop professionally. And I started to then identify the unique skills, the unique experiences, and the unique traits that underlie my past accomplishments, that actually made me the perfect coach for this particular person. So it's a little bit of a mindset shift. [00:16:05] But I think reminding ourselves of our past accomplishments and what led to those, is important. Especially in a society where we're told not to celebrate, particularly women. Minimize your accomplishments. Like when someone says great job, you say, "Oh no big deal." But that's not really the truth. Usually, it was a big deal. And if we can own those successes, we're going to be able to think of them more naturally when we're challenged professionally. When we're challenged professionally, instead of thinking I don't have the ability to do this I might think instead, no, of course, I have the ability to do this. In fact, I'm uniquely qualified to do this. Jeena Cho: [00:16:49] Also, I think you don't have to know everything there is to know about the thing that you have to do in order to be "qualified." Like learning some of it as you go is perfectly fine. And I think there's just often this sense like if I don't know everything, every aspect of it inside out.. Like law practice. There's no way you can possibly know everything there is to know about any area of law. You can learn and still be a good lawyer. Neha Sampat: [00:17:25] Oh my goodness, you said it so well. I always say being a good lawyer doesn't mean having all the answers. It means knowing where to find the answers. And I think the profession is set up in so many ways to lead us to have Imposter Syndrome, to lead us to have that mindset that we somehow have to have all the answers. Like the bar exam, the bar exam is a perfect example. We cram our heads full of everything we can cram into about all these different areas of law when really the practice of law is not really.. you're not expected to know everything about everything in the law. You just have to know how to find it and how to use what you find. And so, unfortunately, there's just a lot of these little things about the legal profession that just creates a culture that feeds Imposter Syndrome, instead of addressing it. Jeena Cho: [00:18:21] Yeah. So what can lawyers do to reduce rather than feed their Imposter Syndrome? Neha Sampat: [00:18:34] I think some of it is understanding why it's such a profound issue in the legal profession because that allows us to change our behavior. So for example, in the law, we're trained to be more skeptical when we could be trusting, and then we apply that skepticism to ourselves and to our own abilities and our accomplishments. And so if we can recognize that and be like, okay we're trained in this way for this particular purpose, but we shouldn't be then letting that mindset bleed into how we view ourselves. You know, we're trained not to show our cards; we're trained not to show vulnerability. Vulnerability equals weakness for lawyers. But if you can't be vulnerable, you actually are going to have a really hard time acknowledging when you don't know the answers, like you were mentioning. So if you can't acknowledge when you don't know the answers, you can't seek out the help and get the answers. And then you can't actually perform up to your ability, and then you start to again feed that Imposter Syndrome. [00:19:37] And so you know, there are a number of other reasons. The perfectionism that really comes with the practice of law. The stakes are high, the stakes are super high for lawyers. We're often representing clients whose lives are significantly impacted by the outcome of our work so that just adds to what is already a natural inclination to perfectionism. And that kind of holding yourself to an unrealistic ideal, and holding oneself to an unrealistic ideal is shown through data. And not just in the legal profession, but it is shown through data to tie to feelings of Imposter Syndrome. And so how can you get a more realistic, set a more realistic bar for yourself? I think that's part of what you need to do. [00:20:27] And I think this is where our profession bears some responsibility, to do a lot better. Because there are lawyers among us who have "arrived," and those lawyers need to build the courage to share their stories of their past struggle with Imposter Syndrome, or even their current self-doubt. They need to share their failures, because we need to as a profession dispel this myth of the magically gifted and perfect lawyer. So then the lawyers who look up to those more senior lawyers can see that leadership in the law is attainable, and that a good lawyer isn't (like you and I just talked about) one who magically has all the answers. [00:21:08] You know there's this great example of that outside of the legal profession. Professor Johannes Haushofer from Princeton a few years ago published this magical document that he called his CV Failures. I love it, it lists all the publications that rejected his work, all the jobs he didn't get. And we need more of that in the legal profession, the leaders in our profession need to be able to let down the guards, show the younger lawyers what happens behind the curtain, share our missteps. The younger lawyers can see that there is not this expectation of perfection, what there is is an expectation of growth, of learning. [00:21:59] There's a confidence in the ability of our young lawyers to learn, and so I'm going to go on the record here and invite any lawyer listening to this podcast who wants to kind of go more public with their self-doubt to reach out to me. Because this would be a great project that I would like to really help make happen. And so professionally, there's a lot of stuff we can do, like building affluency around what Imposter Syndrome is in law firms. Equipping the mentors, the practice group leaders, with an understanding of it. Because then these folks are going to be able to see symptoms, see the common signs of symptoms of Imposter Syndrome in their younger lawyers, and start to be able to address it. The problem is they're not equipped to even see that there's underlying Imposter Syndrome happening. What they see is the outcome; they see lawyer attrition, lawyer underperformance. They see lawyers experiencing a tremendous amount of anxiety, they see their diversity and inclusion metrics not improving. Underlying a lot of these outcomes is actually Imposter Syndrome. So if they're equipped with the skill set to identify it and then the tactics to address it, we're going to see a shift happen within the profession. And then one-on-one, if you're looking within yourself as to what you can do to address your Imposter Syndrome, I provide workshops on that. I do live workshops equipping folks with tactics, actionable tactics they can take to bust their Imposter Syndrome. [00:23:33] And these tactics come from tactics I've actually put into practice in my life, and I've worked with my coaching clients to put into practice. And they're also based on aggregate social science research. And I just recently adapted the live workshop into an online course, so that way far more people have access to it and folks can engage with the learning more on their own schedule. So I just launched this online course called "Owning Your Value: Ten Tactics to Bust Your Self-Doubt, Step Into Your True Value, and be Your Best Self." And it's five weeks of tactics-focused approach to addressing Imposter Syndrome. Some of the things that are practical tips that I can just mention today for the listeners, one that really I think ties to Jeena you and your work, your very impactful work is adopting a mindfulness mindset. So one tactic I recommend folks try is shifting their mindset to one through which they can more objectively and accurately own their value, and that tactic is mindfulness meditation. So for me, some of the visualizations in guided meditation are the same principles that help me question my self-doubting thoughts, and help other folks question their self-doubting thoughts. Like that exercise or that visualization in meditation as seeing your thoughts as clouds passing in the sky and realizing that your thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. That they're important data points, but that your thoughts and feelings do not define you. That came to me through my mindfulness meditation practice, and that was pivotal for me. I learned that I was actually holding on to some of my negative thoughts about myself, and the way I visualize that was there was a helium balloon that was my negative thought about myself. And it was tied to my wrist, and it was following me around and it was casting this shadow over me wherever I went. [00:25:49] But when I started really building a practice of mindfulness meditation, I actually saw that the string of that balloon wasn't tied around my wrist. I was actually just clutching to it super tightly, and I could instead just let it go and just watch it float away. So the visualizations themselves in mindfulness meditation I think really can help address Imposter Syndrome. I do the same thing with my failures; I see my failures as less permanent. I see them as data. So I harvest what I can learn from them, and then like that balloon, I just let go of that string. And I think just at the base, for me giving myself the time to focus on myself by committing to a regular meditation practice, that was a revolutionary act of investing in myself. I really had to say to myself, this is self-care. It's not actually overindulgence, it's not actually selfishness. This is a statement of my self-worth. And so by giving myself time to just kind of be quiet and be within myself, to really focus on my breath and treasure my breath, I started to appreciate myself in a whole new way. I appreciated my body and it's capability, it's strength. And it really actually boosted my self-confidence, my belief in my worth. So for me, meditation has been a very effective tactic. And bringing that mindfulness mindset to the rest of my life has been effective. [00:27:40] You know, there are plenty of other ways. Like I don't think there's one formula that's going to work for every single person in addressing their Imposter Syndrome. What I try to do is fill people's toolboxes. So mindfulness meditation, give it a try people and see if it works for you! Values identification is another proven tactic in addressing Imposter Syndrome, so I have folks work through a values exercise by which they identify their core values. And data indicates that if you do such a values exercise right before you go into a situation in which you tend to experience self-doubt and Imposter Syndrome, you actually are going to experience less self-doubt and Imposter Syndrome. So that's another tactic folks can use, is working through a values exercise. So those are a few examples. Jeena Cho: [00:28:33] Yeah, yeah. Lots of really wonderful tips there, and often I find that if you just sort of become aware of some habitual pattern, that pattern loses its grip. Just like what you are suggesting of letting go of the balloons, we hold on very, very tightly to all of these habitual thoughts and behaviors. A lot of them we may have learned as kids and they were a good survival mechanism perhaps in the past (maybe, maybe not), but it's no longer serving us. And that's sometimes hard to even recognize, that that's how you process different emotions or experiences. And we all have these default reactions. Neha Sampat: [00:29:19] Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right, I think there's so much wisdom in that; that we all have these. But so much of it is we forget that we're capable of adapting, we forget that we're capable of growing and learning and having more agency over how we view the world and how we view ourselves. So some of it is just a reminder of that and saying I'm going to prioritize this and I'm going to really examine my mindset. Growth mindset, that is another really important mindset shift that really can be very effective at busting Imposter Syndrome. You know, I was that fixed mindset person who thought, I'm bad at math, I'm always going to be bad at math, and that's just who I am. And that's actually not necessarily the truth, that was just something I held onto and I just I accepted as a truth. But growth mindset teaches us that our failures do not define us, our missteps or negative outcomes are just a snapshot of where we're at on a particular day. And we need to learn from those missteps, and that learning from those mistakes is actually going to make us more successful the very next day. Jeena Cho: [00:30:35] Right. Often I find that it's helpful, especially when you're having these thoughts, see if you can just add the word "yet." So it might be like, I don't know how to draft this motion or I don't know anything about this particular area of law, but that's not a permanent state. It's just that you don't know it "yet." So just adding that word "yet" at the end is kind of like a nice way to shift your brain into thinking, I just don't know the answers now but I can learn them. Or maybe you had a really bad day and you lost a hearing and it's just recognizing I lost a hearing today, but that doesn't mean you'll lose every single hearing from this point forward, and that these things are temporary. Just reminding yourself of that is so helpful and important and difficult to do. Neha Sampat: [00:31:37] Jeena, you are my kindred spirit. I'm laughing because I'm sitting in my office talking to you right now, and I am looking at the bulletin board up on my office wall and I have two comments or questions up there as reminders to myself. One of them is the question, "How have you surprised yourself?" And to me, that really allows me to recognize the areas where I can push beyond my boundaries of comfort and grow. And the second one literally says, "Not yet." And I got that from Carol Dweck's work on growth mindset. And that is kind of a touchstone for me, particularly now as an entrepreneur. [00:32:25] As you know, in entrepreneurship there's so much uncertainty. You have to be willing to adapt and pivot and grow, and you can't let your failures have a lasting grip on you. It's okay to feel frustrated and to have emotions about things that don't go the way we had planned. But what I've had to learn is that "not yet" part. Like maybe this didn't go exactly how I envisioned this time.. well, not yet. So I'm just smiling because I'm like oh my goodness, there is a reason the world brought you and I together. So funny. Jeena Cho: [00:33:05] Neha, for the folks out there that are interested in learning more about your work and your course, what's the best place for them to do that? Neha Sampat: [00:33:15] Folks can reach out to me directly via e-mail at neha@genlead.co. My website is www.genlead.co. So that's where folks can learn more about what I would do in my work, through my business, the coaching, the consulting, the diversity inclusion work, and there's a whole page for that Owning Your Value online course as well. So that's where they can get connected and express interest in the Owning Your Value online course. And I'm actually going to be having a cohort of that course this summer that's going to be just for lawyers, so I'm going to be able to talk more about the unique aspects for the legal profession that really make Imposter Syndrome what I call the legal profession's hidden epidemic, and how lawyers can capitalize on their lawyer training to address their Imposter Syndrome. [00:34:15] How can you use your lawyering skills to actually more objectively and accurately view your value? So that course is going to be happening this summer, and I'm happy to give listeners of your podcast 15 % off discount for the first 15 who sign up for the course. So folks can find info on that on my website, and I always welcome folks to reach out to me. Whether you have your Imposter Syndrome stories you want to share or you want to get some insight if you just want to chat about this topic or any of the other topics on which I do work; generational inclusion, unconscious bias, belonging, work in general, and coaching. So absolutely feel free to reach out via LinkedIn, you can look me up. I'm also on Facebook, you can look up Belong Lab and I post regularly with articles or thoughts or my own writing, or other people's wonderful writings such as yours Jeena. So it's a great place to have regular reminders of a lot of what you and I've talked about today. One more thing, I'll also make available one of the worksheets that I provide in the online course. It's a worksheet to help folks identify the costs and losses of their Imposter Syndrome, to really see how it has taxed you and what opportunities you may not have taken advantage of. Because if we can identify those, we can really prioritize addressing Imposter Syndrome. And we can think about how our lives might actually be different if we can have a more objective and full view of our ability. So what I can do is provide listeners with that worksheet for free, I'm happy to provide it to you. Jeena Cho: [00:36:06] Fantastic. Neha, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom with me and the listeners. I really appreciate it. Neha Sampat: [00:36:16] Jeena it is a pleasure. I always love talking to you, and I am a listener. I have read your book and it has been so pivotal for me, so this is a real honor and a gift to be guesting on your podcast today. Thank you so much. Closing: [00:36:34] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Rhonda Magee on to talk about utilizing mindfulness to help combat biases. Rhonda Magee is Professor of Law at the University of San Francisco. She teaches Mindfulness-Based Interventions, and is a student of awareness and compassion practices from a range of traditions. She is a facilitator of mindful and compassionate communication, and a Fellow of the Mind and Life Institute. Rhonda's teachings and writings support compassionate problem-solving and presence-based leadership in a diverse world, and humanizing approaches to education. She sees awareness practices as keys to personal, interpersonal and collective transformation in the face of challenge and opportunity. The author of numerous articles on mindfulness in legal education, Rhonda is a thought and practice leader in the emerging fields of contemplative legal and higher education. Topics Covered Rhonda kicks the episode off by diving into her past as a mindful lawyer and why having a mindfulness practice is a must working in such a high-conflict field as law, especially in terms of constant and consistent self-growth. How utilizing mindfulness practices help develop and condition our faculties around social justice, social bias, and working with identity-based biases. She talks on practical ways that we can combat the apathy we see and can respond with, such as the STOP practice. Tips and tools for maintaining a consistent mindfulness practice and mindfulness in Legal Education and Professional Development Concrete examples of using mindfulness to work on our own implicit biases. As socially embodied beings, we are both signaling and sending signals that people are reading and perceiving differently. It is our responsibility to be mindful of this, and reflect on how we can better engage our own identities. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Rhonda Magee: [00:00:03] Just simply engaging in mindfulness on a regular basis can broaden our capacity to be with these changes with more grace, with more intentionality, with more skillfulness over time. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am so happy to have Rhonda McGee. She is a professor of law at the University of San Francisco. She teaches mindfulness-based interventions. As a student of awareness and compassion practices from a range of traditions, Rhonda's teaching and writing support compassion problem solving and presence-based leadership in a diverse world, and humanizing approaches to education. She sees awareness practices as keys to personal, interpersonal and collective transformation in the face of challenge and opportunity. [00:01:21] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a very short six-minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety as a preview for my new course Mindful Pause. You can check it out over at my website JeenaCho.com, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Rhonda. Rhonda, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Rhonda Magee: [00:01:49] Thank you so much, Jeena. It's beautiful to talk with you and to hear a little bit more about the other work that you're engaged in again. Jeena Cho: [00:01:58] Yeah. Rhonda, it'd be great to start with just a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do. Rhonda Magee: [00:02:05] Sure. So primarily my main job is I'm a law professor, so I teach law at the University of San Francisco. I have been for 20 years, and I love the opportunity that that work gives me to engage with new entrants into our profession, and to be constantly a part of the process by which we have real conversations about what it means to be a lawyer, about particular aspects of law, and its impact in the world today. So that's my main job, but in addition to that I teach mindfulness. [00:02:48] My mindfulness teaching grew out of my mindfulness practice, which for me started many, many years ago. I guess kind of more or less formally in the way that I practice it now, I could date the start to around 1993. Which is a year that I graduated law school, came out to San Francisco, and just realized I needed a little bit more than the cognitive and skills-focused set of tools to really get myself grounded in the way that I felt I wanted to be, to begin practicing law. So I started practicing mindfulness then, and the work that I've done to integrate that into my work teaching law and then teaching other populations the tools of mindfulness has grown from there. Jeena Cho: [00:03:44] Why is it important for lawyers to be mindful or to practice mindfulness? Rhonda Magee: [00:03:52] Well I know this is what your audience reflects on all the time. So just to take it from my own personal perspective, I went to law school at the University of Virginia and practiced law here in San Francisco at a firm that like many firms, had a number of attorneys working on a range of different types of practice areas, in a range of areas. It was a civil litigation practice. I actually did a fair amount of insurance coverage while I was there, but dabbled in other things and I practiced for about four and a half years. And based on that experience, which of course is somewhat dated now, but based on that experience as well as my interactions with people in the practice today, not the least of which is my relationship with my partner (who is a law partner at a law firm today, and we've been together for many years), so I'm aware based on my own experience and my own engagement with lawyers in the practice right now, in a variety of settings. That brings me an awareness of the ways that, first of all law practice is as we all know holistically challenging. It is a beautiful profession for many reasons, not the least of which is that it calls upon us to really be as effective as we can in the midst of engaging with people who, in many cases, are at their most distressed and vulnerable, in some ways weakened by circumstances in their own lives or the intersection of their own lives with the legal system in some way. [00:05:49] So because we are so often called in or called upon to really bring our knowledge, skills, and values from our law practice, our legal education, and our experience in the world as lawyers, to bear on these high-conflict, high-intensity situations. And in such scenarios, having a range of different skills at our capacity is essential to number one: effective lawyering, right? Really accessing well that which we can do to support people. So thinking well about the application of law and policy to a particular problem, but also recognizing that there are values and ethical considerations that might be brought to bear, and sensing into the ways that our own human biases or orientations or limitations might also be getting in the way. Having the ability to do all of those things at once is really highly sophisticated work, and really does call upon us. I think as we all know who've done any practice, to really have commitments that involve self-development at progressively more profound levels over the course of our careers. And I myself have not found any more effective set of practices to support that kind of 360 ongoing commitment to personal development than the practices of mindfulness. And in that I know I echo people like Michael Zimmerman, former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the state of Utah, who is a colleague of mine in this work. Who has often said as well from his perspective as a lawyer, an appellate court lawyer, a judge, a deep practitioner of mindfulness, the kind of skills and the way of being with reality if you will, that is supported by mindfulness practice are really THE skills; the greatest support we have seen for the development of these kinds of skills for lawyering. Jeena Cho: [00:08:37] Yeah, I find it really difficult to try to explain to someone that doesn't have a mindfulness practice, to explain what all the benefits are. They think a lot of us sort of find our way into mindfulness and meditation because we're really stressed or there is some discontent. But then what it ends up opening up is this whole new way of engaging with the world, and it's not really easy to explain what that is. Like when you start a yoga practice and you notice all of these ripple benefits that you weren't anticipating. Rhonda Magee: [00:09:21] Yeah I agree, and so I do think we can talk about some of the benefits that we have experienced and that research has shown. And of course, at the end of the day I think that when people (as you suggested) take that yoga class or engage in any kind of suggested practice, via exercising or taking time for themselves, engaging in mindfulness and the allied disciplines of mindfulness, we learn from that experience in ways that maybe supplements what we've learned through external reports and testimonials. But for me, just starting with the simple practice of developing more comfort with being with the body and whatever state it's in in any given moment. For many of us, it's hard to be actually present to what we are feeling and what we're experiencing. [00:10:29] And so for that reason, number one mindfulness can seem more difficult and counterproductive, especially if we've spent a lot of our lives as many of us have, kind of running away from or finding ways to distract ourselves from those things, and even positive ways to distract ourselves by working hard, by focusing on trying to do good. But at the end of the day, if we each pause and take a look, for many of us we can see that we've spent some time in our lives going away from what it feels like to be here now, to being present to what we're feeling, what we are sensing. We don't quite maybe have words for sensations in the body that we might not want to give time to, and we're all differently oriented and conditioned around the capacity to be with what is arising. So for me for example, I grew up in a home where I really didn't feel a lot of support for just allowing feelings to exist. Even sickness, I grew up in a home where everybody was working and there was a felt sense that we didn't have a lot of time to even get well when you needed to. So even I realized at a certain point I'd internalized from just that, a way of being critical with myself, even when I wasn't feeling well. Pushing, pushing myself so hard. Hard, harsh language, internal language for myself, just at the moment when I might need most to just allow myself the time that the body needs to heal. [00:12:19] So I find that that's not an uncommon kind of way of having a relationship with ourself, that those of us who are productive in the world and making things happen; we can have these ways of relating with our own self and our own experience which make it hard for us to adjust. First of all, to give ourselves time and to kind of turn away from our habits of pushing away what we're feeling and move and pushing through it, when mindfulness invites you to engage with those realities and those feelings and sensations differently; to actually allow them in, create some space around them. And so, given the ways many of us are conditioned not to be present, to not give myself time when I needed it, to see that maybe as a little bit of a weakness, this work is kind of counterintuitive or certainly countercultural. If we look at the particular cultures we've been raised in or we've helped create to be successful for ourselves, so it doesn't surprise me that many people in law find it difficult to actually practice the kind of opening invitations of mindfulness, like creating space to just sit in silence for a few minutes each day. Jeena Cho: [00:13:48] Right, and also we as a legal culture really looked down upon that. I remember being a very young attorney and being told things like, leave your emotions at the door; there is actually no room for your feelings in this room. And it wasn't until much later, once I started really getting into my law practice, it's like no actually the majority of what brings clients into the office is because they're experiencing emotional pain. And we're so driven by emotions, you know that's what propels the action. So if we can really understand our client's emotions we're better able to help and serve them, but we can't do that if we're not emotionally intuned with ourselves. Rhonda Magee: [00:14:38] Exactly, exactly. And I agree with you entirely and have seen that in my own practice life and also in the work that I've done in academia. So I've been socialized into two different quite formidable professions, law on the one hand and academia on the other. And that is, I know you have experienced as well. You know, in academia there's a similar set of norms. So I just find that all over our society, wherever we are, when you get into relatively high-status environments and professions, it's not uncommon for there to be a corresponding set of norms that minimize the importance of being present to emotion, allowing space for emotion. [00:15:29] Your story reminded me of a story I received as a young law professor, which was very similar in that one of the mid-level professors who had just successfully obtained tenure was giving me some advice and counsel about how to conduct myself in the classroom. And one of the things he said to me was, "I have a practice of not smiling at the students for the first six weeks of class" And he had a whole story for how this was a way of instilling a certain sense of faux intimidation; an environment that he thought was somehow conducive to the kind of order he wanted to be in the class. Then after the six weeks or so you can loosen up and allow a smile. But a smile is an indication as a sort of a signal of a certain kind of emotional experience that most of us experience on a regular basis, if we're just allowing life to hit us. Humor happens, joy happens, connection happens, and smiles normally will happen. But to have that be a norm that's being passed on from law professor to law professor in some setting.. And thank goodness I think it's less so today than it used to be, but certainly 20 years ago when I started it was certainly not considered at all odd for this junior mid-level professor to tell me that this was one of the tactics he had adopted to successfully get him where he was. So yeah, just to sit with that. That is a deep indication of the kind of culture that you're talking about. Jeena Cho: [00:17:29] Yeah and speaking of culture, I know you've written and done a lot of work around social justice and our implicit bias, and how mindfulness can help us to be more aware and to start to shift, and really use mindfulness as a tool for uncovering our own bias. Tell us about that. Rhonda Magee: [00:17:57] Well yeah, thank you for asking because I do think all of us can see (if we're paying attention at all) how we're struggling as individuals, as institutions, organizations, workplaces, the larger community and society, to just deal more effectively with the challenges of living in diverse and changing times. So living with the changes of our demographics, different populations coming together with different cultures, and a time of other rising anxieties right. Everything from climate change to what seems like endless war. So we as humans are just being challenged on many levels, and our history tells us that one of the ways we are tempted to respond to such challenges has to do with a kind of a reversion to the dynamics of tribalism. We know from neurobiology that our bodies are formed to respond to perceived threats in one of a few deeply ingrained ways; to flee right, the flight response. And we do that as much as we can, we do those things in explicit and implicit, obvious and subtle ways. We flee situations where we're feeling some sense of threat, so fleeing can look like just sitting in the space but not contributing anymore. Or everything from that to literally leaving and never coming back. So flight is one way we respond to these kinds of threats. Fighting, right? Just figuring out an “us versus them” kind of, who's on my team, who isn't on my team. [00:20:03] Polarizing is another common response. So the flight or fight syndrome much written about by social biologists and other neurobiologists, neuroscientists, really to help us understand what's happening to us cognitively and holistically when we perceive threats in our environments. And others have helped us understand that there are other options available to us, like tending and befriending. But to choose to tend and befriend, to not flee, to know that there are other options often involves a more sophisticated engagement with our capabilities. So moving from what many people call the early human aspects of the developed brain, the reptilian kind of brain and cortex and into the neocortex; the later evolved part of our brain that assists us in making these more sophisticated decisions, responses to these stimuli in our world. Including the kinds of threats, we perceive when we're looking at say, demographic change in the midst of all kinds of conflicts that are being presented to us and coming at us at what seems like warp speed in our culture today. And mindfulness can help really, by assisting us in regulating the emotional reactivity that can come with a sense of concern or anxiety. It may or may not be consciously perceived as a sense of threat, but the body might be sensing some anxiety. As we know, research has shown for example that when analysts, demographers report on the changing demographics in our time, the "browning" if you will of America, the fact that we are becoming more comprised of minority or minority populations here in America. The percentage of Americans who are for example identified as and identify themselves as white over time has been lessening, and is predicted to lessen in the next generation or so in a way that will be apparent to us and may call on us to meet each other around difference in different ways, and I think it's already doing so. Research has shown that just to hear about those changes can create a sense of anxiety for people. And so right then and there then, if the body is physiologically reacting, even if we don't think cognitively that we feel that to be a bad thing or that we are necessarily biased against these changes or any one individual who might be seen as a reflection of such changes in our environment, our bodies often are signaling something different. So mindfulness is just one of the ways that we can develop greater emotional intelligence, a greater capacity to notice different ways that our bodies might be signaling anxiety or discomfort. And again, through mindfulness and the allied disciplines of mindfulness, the reflections on our values, reflections on the insights that arise from mindfulness, that we are actually profoundly interconnected. So to the degree that we see ourselves as these isolated beings, us against the world. One of the things that mindfulness can do is help us to sense our way into our inherent interconnectedness. The breath alone by itself, for example, reminds us we don't create the air that we breathe. [00:24:29] We depend on each other profoundly for that air to be of a quality that we can all survive and thrive in. And those kinds of subtle insights are part of the way the modality, the methodology for how simply engaging in mindfulness on a regular basis can broaden our capacity to be with these changes with more grace, with more intentionality, with more skillfulness overtime. Jeena Cho: [00:25:07] Yeah, and you and I were chatting before the show started about how mindfulness helps us to.. Especially now, the amount of information and data and news, we're so inundated yet there is a sense of a lack of intimacy with one another, that sense connection. It's like we talk at each other in sound bites. On a very practical level, thoughts about how to stay connected and engaged and aware of what's happening out in the world, but also not so sucked into it where it becomes harmful or toxic? Rhonda Magee: [00:25:58] Mmm, yeah. There are many practical tools we can use that I've discovered through mindfulness. One is I'm sure your listeners are probably quite familiar with, this practice called the S.T.O.P. practice, with the acronym "S-T-O-P." But it is really aimed at encapsulating how it is that through our mindfulness practice, deepen our commitment to be more proactive about how we move through the world, and to giving ourselves the support we need as we need it. This particular practice is an example of just what I mean by that, so it's a S.T.O.P. practice, it is again the acronym "S-T-O-P." [00:26:54] And with the "S", it is a suggestion that when we are feeling the first signs that we notice that we are feeling any kind of overwhelm, we literally take the invitation to stop. The "S" in "S-T-O-P" really just means stop. By that we mean pause, and this dovetails well with your current new project around the pause, but really just to pause in the middle of what it is that we're doing. Even if ever so briefly, right? This can all take place within seconds, if not less. But we just take a moment, if we are scrolling through our email, noticing some level of reactivity and about to respond or react. Send that email off in the state of the reactivity, send that tweet off in the state of the reactivity. We have so many technological ways that can make manifest the way in which in real time we struggle. But mindfulness is about giving us a bit of an assist. But it does require orienting ourselves to say, we will take the time to give ourselves the assist. So it is saying, bring mindfulness to the first signs that we are about to be in a state of some kind of overwhelm, and in that moment to stop; to pause, to then move to the "T". And I'm doing it instinctively right now. Take a deep breath, take a cautious breath. Within which we can, just by doing that we invite the sort of neurobiological support that comes with the conscious engagement with a simple, intentional breath. [00:28:56] We know that if we allow ourselves to engage in deep breathing, we naturally engage in deep breathing as a means of calming ourselves. And again, neurobiologists can tell us that we are formed, our parasympathetic and our sympathetic nervous systems, that part of us is profoundly conformed to assist us in calming ourselves when we are distressed. So a deep breath in the face of whatever it is that is causing us anxiety, is a natural and nature-approved way of assisting us and calming down. So take that conscious, intentional breath, that's the "T". And then "O". "O" is simply to observe what's happening as you breathe. You open up to sensing into the state of the body and the mind, this sort of embodied being that we are in that moment. So you observe the quality of the breath that you just sort of interrupted a bit while taking a deeper breath. Where we're breathing very high in the chest, shallow breathing we know is associated with a stress response. So just noticing, observing, what's the quality of my being in this moment? Perhaps starting with the breath, which is where we are already kind of landed as we engage in the "T", so "T-O", we are observing what's the quality of that breath? What's the quality of the rest of my being at this moment? Am I feeling the ground beneath me? [00:30:40] So really, you observe from the breath the whole body, perhaps dropping down to the feet. Feeling the support of the ground that is beneath you that we might not have been in touch within the moments prior to engaging in just this brief "S-T-O-P" practice. But the ground is there, we are supported. So allowing an observation of, alright where my feet right now, how is my own being in this moment? Kind of allowing myself in my embodiment to support myself in this moment. So we can sometimes notice if we are hunched over, if we are leaning forward or racing forward in a way that really doesn't provide necessarily the most grounded way of handling a distressing situation. So to allow an observation of what's the state of the body; what's my posture right now? What's happening my mind, what thoughts are coming to me? So thoughts, what emotions, what other related sensations? So that "O" is a point of allowing a space for observing what it is right, that is characteristic of this moment of distress for us. And from there, really inviting a shift, knowing as we do if we practice mindfulness a little bit, if we study mindfulness a little bit, at what I call the allied disciplines of studying about mindfulness: reading about it, engaging in practice with others, looking at your ethical commitments for doing mindfulness or practicing mindfully. Once we pause enough to observe what's going on, and then if we have been engaging in mindfulness in this more wholesome way, ideally then some of the benefits of that can arise as we pause, as we observe what's going on, and are there to support us in consciously shifting into a more skillful way of moving forward. [00:32:47] So then with the "P", it's "S-T-O-P", we reflect on how it is that we might want to respond rather than react. So if we're just racing in a way that maybe we can walk with purpose and support ourselves with each step, if we are about to send off that email maybe we can think a little bit about the sender or senders.. If we're about to send off that tweet, just pause to think about the different audiences that might receive that, and just how they might receive it. We may decide to send it anyway, but we've done it then though from a place of deeper ground, of having reflected on it from a variety of sides in a way that can prepare us for whatever might be to come. So the "P" then is about a bit of processing and then proceeding with intentionality, based on having allowed ourselves the support of mindfulness as we go. Jeena Cho: [00:33:48] Yeah, that's such a simple and beautiful practice that we can all incorporate into our entire life. So I know you've been meditating for a long time, how do you keep your meditation practice going? This is something that I hear a lot of (I guess it also applies to nonlawyers too) us struggle with, is just you keeping a consistent formal practice of meditation going. So tips and tools on maintaining the practice? Rhonda Magee: [00:34:25] Well it's a great question, it's never not timely. For me, it really is about making daily if not moment to moment commitments about staying mindful; writing in and supporting myself to be mindful. So that is about, again asking myself really specifically, what do I want to do to support myself in being mindful and being able to draw on mindfulness as a support throughout my day. How do I make that happen? I make that happen by making time to commit to mindfulness before I need it, in a certain sense. The idea that we can just listen to people talk about mindfulness or read about mindfulness, but not actually practice mindfulness and then have it as a resource for us that is part of our being, is a little bit of a false way of really understanding what mindfulness is about. We really do need to practice. And even though I've been at it for years, I know I need daily practice. [00:35:49] So it starts with again a commitment. One of my teachers says, a way that he counsels students who are struggling with the commitment to practice is to ask at the end of each day. Because we can look at our day and say, wow I could have used a little bit more mindfulness today, I'm feeling depleted. Where was the practice when I needed it today? That recognition that we needed can then be a support for saying, alright what will I do tomorrow to give myself time to deepen my mindfulness practice. Can I commit to getting up tomorrow? Again, each of us may have different ways of doing the practice. For me, starting the day with mindfulness is important. Sometimes that means a long sit. [00:36:43] And I don't mean hours, but for me long given the way my work and day often moves, a long sit is 20, 25, 30 minutes. And some nights I begin with a commitment that tomorrow I'm going to do a long sit. One of my teachers says, "It's not enough to just ask am I going to do it? It's to really say, am I really going to do it? What time am I going to get up to do it?" Ideally, we may have already identified a space, a place where we engage in our practice. And so this is about, again I talk a lot in the work that I do about this thing, that executive functioning of the brain; the decision maker. The part of the brain that can actually help us with our good intentions. The neocortex, we enlist that when we ask ourselves am I really going to do it, what's my plan for doing it? We know that when we take those kinds of extra steps, we're just that much more likely to follow through the next day. [00:37:47] So that's one way to sort of allow the sense that we're maybe not quite making time for it to prompt us, to deepen our commitments. And that may look differently for each of us, it might look different for each of us. But it might look like saying, I've said I want to do a regular daily practice that begins with a morning sit. I will do it tomorrow. I will do it for.. If 20 or 30 minutes is too much for you on the day that you have given the state that you're in; you're totally exhausted, you're not sure you can do 20 minutes or 30 or more. But you might be able to really easily say, yes I can do ten minutes. I can do ten minutes, and tomorrow I will do ten minutes. So those kinds of agreements to be mindful, and to kind of plan and mindfulness. It's the discipline of saying, I have a commitment, I'm going to fulfill it. And knowing that there's some Momentive benefit; there's a momentum that can be established if you do that one day and you see some benefit, and then you do it again the next day. And I caution this in these conversations about staying with the practice, that some days it won't feel like yes I see a benefit. And those are the days when we have to say, but we're going to stick with it because we made a promise to ourselves; I made a promise to myself. I can stick with it, I can do this regularly. For some of us just starting out, we might say I can do this regularly for a week; I can do it regularly for 28 days, 30 days. And even if I'm feeling like I'm not sure, I can keep at it. [00:39:36] But at the same time, recognizing that there are ways that we must be our own best friend and counsel as we do this. And it is true that mindfulness is not necessarily for every person, or for all aspects of our distress that we're feeling. And there are times when actually we know that by just sitting, we know that we're spiraling into a little bit more distress than we can handle at that moment. And so, of course everything I say, and I'm sure Jeena it's true for you as well. We're always reminding everyone who listens, everyone who would engage in the practice to be your own best supporter and guide and counsel. If you need to take a break, if you need to get some other kind of support or a counselor or other, that is what you need at that moment. Do it and then come back perhaps to mindfulness when you're ready. Jeena Cho: [00:40:43] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really important point to highlight, that there may be situations and circumstances where mindfulness may not be like the cure-all. I think sometimes it's sold in that way, but definitely get the help you need for sure. Rhonda Magee: [00:41:10] And at the same time, there are degrees of struggle. So if your struggle is I'm just feeling bored with this, that's one where you might say well just notice it and investigate it a little bit. But don't give up on the promise that you made that you're going to stick with it long enough to see what might be the benefits, if you can get through the period of almost predictable resistance to it. It is, you're doing something that's completely different from what you normally do. Know that there's going to be a period or periods that may recur of just reaction to the mindfulness, I don't want to be mindful, I don't want to sit. But just to let that be; maybe allow a little bit of levity, a little bit of, "Here I am in my reactivity against mindfulness, but I'm going to sit. I'm going to do it." Just letting yourself go through what we all go through as we develop our relationship with our practice. Jeena Cho: [00:42:14] It's so funny that you mention boredom, because that was literally the thing that I sat with for the first two years of my practice. And I remember my teacher being like, well what does boredom actually feel like? And I was like, I don't know, it's really unpleasant. I don't know what it feels like. And he was like, well why don't you go and explore it. Like actually just sit and explore what boredom feels like. And I was like, ugh fine damn it. I was a resistant student, like most lawyers are. But it was fascinating, because there are lots of interesting things about boredom. And what I found even more interesting was that sensation of boredom would reoccur everywhere in my life, but I never noticed it. So it was really interesting to go, here I am standing in the grocery line and there is boredom, and how do I be with boredom? I reach for my phone. We all walk around with this pacifier now, and it really shifted my relationship with how I relate to digital technology. It's like, what do I do entertain myself? And do I always need to entertain myself when I'm bored, or can I just be with boredom. All of these interesting things that you'll learn, especially when you're resisting against something in your practice. Rhonda Magee: [00:43:32] That's true, right? It's an ongoing revelation, right? That's what I do when I'm bored, and I do it all the time it seems like, it's coming up everywhere. Jeena Cho: [00:43:46] So Rhonda, before we wrap things up I do want to have a more concrete discussion about how do we use mindfulness to work when our implicit bias? And for the folks that are listening to you, they may not know that you're black. And for the folks that are listening, they may not know that I'm Asian. Sometimes being a woman of color, we have very different experiences going through the world. So I'm wondering if you can give some of the tools on mindfulness, as a way that we can work on ourselves. For the listeners out there that are either people of color or women or in some group of minority in some way. Or if they're the white guy and they're wanting to take part in this conversation but aren't sure how to. And I think that can also be a really uncomfortable place to be as well. And I realize that's a huge question, so I'll let you take it any direction that feels good to you. Rhonda Magee: [00:45:01] Well it is a great, huge, meaty question. And of course, like all great, huge, meaty questions, I will really only be able to invite some reflection that is really just pointing toward what I hope will be ongoing ruminations, thoughts, reflections, ways of continuing the conversation that we do collectively and individually from here. So I would say that mindfulness for me is a way of deepening my experience with reality. And what reality is is always changing, and my reality (as you alluded to in your question Jeena) may be different from yours in a given moment because of the way that our reality, the sense that we have of what is real is based on perceptions that we have as we move through the world. So we are constantly encountering stimuli from the environment, we're meeting people, we're seeing people. People are engaging us, we're reading about incidents in the headlines, comments are being made in a meeting that suddenly trigger some sense that perhaps you've experienced or witnessed a micro aggression. One of these sudden, stunning statements that may leave me or some other person feeling disrespected, or rendered an outsider in some space. [00:46:44] So these are the kinds of things that are the stimuli that we're experiencing as we move through the world. And each of us experiences these things differently, and partly as a function of the ways that we are differently embodied in different time and space. So, depending on the context that we're in; if it's a context in which we all look very much the same, we've all been raised to think very similarly, that's going to be a different kind of space than if we are in a space where it's that but then now someone's entered who physically looks different. Maybe of a different race, maybe a different gender, the intersection of those two is very profound. Maybe have a different class background. In other words, as socially embodied beings we are both signaling and sending signals that people are reading about who we are and what we know, what we think. People are perceiving and making assumptions and all of that. We do it, and it's been done to us all the time. And that comes with being a human being in a social environment. And so bringing mindfulness to the way we engage with our own identities and the way that our perceptions about others in the world may be shaped by the particularities of our own embodied experience, which are very different perhaps than the lived experience of others in that space. Just bringing mindfulness to the fact that our experience is just our experience; it's just one part of a big, complicated, beautiful story about who we are in this moment together. That we might tell and retell with ever increasing complexity and capacity to hold complexity, if we are given the time and opportunity. [00:48:55] Generally we're not given much time and opportunity. So a lot of what can happen at the intersection of identity and some kind of suffering happens in the space of what we do when we don't have a lot of time, but we're operating on a little bit of automatic pilot. We meet someone; we prise them before we even consciously do it. Cognitive scientists tell us that we make perceptions about one another that key into race and intersect race with gender, and perceptions we have of class based on the way perhaps someone is dressed or the way they speak. What kinds of accents people have or don't have. We evaluate these things at a subconscious level before thought even arises around it. So part of what we're learning, if we look at the cognitive sciences, helps us understand how mindfulness practice can assist us in these areas. We are often operating from the place of that automatic reactivity; that automatic way. I see this person, I put this person in this category, and I respond to this person in that way based on that. Mindfulness can help disrupt that automatic processing. I've written, and others have written, about research studies that give us reason to be hopeful; actual, real reason to be hopeful that mindfulness can assist us in just that part of the problem. The problem of automatic application of the preconceptions we have about each other, based on notions of identity, stories about whose identities matter and what types of spaces and places; we all carry these. We can't not have them, having grown up in a world where narratives about who matters and what groups matter where and why are constantly being consumed and presented to us. So, of course, we have imbibed these biases. We imbibe the culture's preferences for different types of bodies and people and cultures and different spaces. So that's always a part of what we ourselves bring to a space. [00:51:09] I know for myself, growing up in the south in a part of the country which had whites and blacks and African-Americans and Caucasians. And those are terms that we created to label people, and yet we know what they mean when we use them. Because we've all been trained to use them. So mindfulness is about deepening our capacity to understand all the different ways we all are brought into a world in which identities are constantly being constructed and reconstructed, and we are acting on each other and with ourselves in ways that reflect these notions. And the problem comes when (well there are many problems that can come from that) what the social psychologists called schema, these ways we have of categorizing the world and moving through the world based on those categories. They're really effective in enhancing efficiency and moving through quickly. The example I often use is we have a cognitive schema for a chair, such that when we see something that looks like it's got a flat bottom or a seated area and four legs, we know that if we're tired we can sit on it and not have to worry about whether or not it'll support us in that activity. We don't want to have to every time we encounter a chair be like, wait what is that? Let me do a test on that. So we get that, we can work with a schema for a chair and move through the world in a way that is supported by that. The problem is when we use similarly reductionist schema for people. I mean, to have a schema for an Asian-American woman and then to say every time I meet.. And often we have these and we've not consciously interrogated them. We've just received them because of stereotypes and film and media, stories we've heard from people who went overseas and came back with stories. [00:53:08] I mean there are all kinds of different ways that we imbibe these stereotypes. We may or may not have made them conscious, interrogated them. And so when we meet a person who we think embodies those characteristics, those stereotypes are operating already; before we have a chance to really be mindful about whether or not they should, or if we would want them to if we have choice. And so mindfulness can get us regularly engaged. Regularly is the key. This is something that for me, I see this as a profound aspect of what it means to be mindful. Because so much of our everyday suffering is mediated through the particular embodiments that we live in. So really, not to see mindfulness and identity and social justice as a side topic, but really to see oh we're just talking about bringing mindfulness to everyday life and lived experience. And not failing to name that we all have lived experience that's characterized by race, characterized by gender, people's notions, our notions of class. These are all already in the mix. So bringing mindfulness more intentionally to bear on those aspects of our own experience, how we began. If you grew up in the south like I did, you may not have met very many Asian, identified Asian, diasporic people before. You might not have heard a lot of language from different Asian countries before, in your everyday life. And you move to a place like California as I did, and suddenly hearing different languages is new. And we all know that again, the human body being what it is, we often don't react so well to every new environment, every new experience. [00:55:01] We often are sort of challenged when we meet the new. So mindfulness can help us notice, I am (in a way that I didn't predict) reacting to having these languages around me; I'm not comfortable. I need to pause and notice what's happening. I am meeting something new; I am having a kind of reaction to it that would suggest I might need to work on this. This might be an area of work for me. So that's really just one of the micro ways that mindfulness can help. I talk about the allied disciplines right, which have to do with committing to being mindful in community. I don't think we would be talking about mindfulness together today if many people before us hadn't realized the importance of practicing with others. So really, you develop by being engaged in practice with others. So it's great to have these podcasts and support for individual practice, but it really is also important to try to find ways of practicing in community when we can. Because it's there that we really do learn on a day-to-day level. How it is that here I am judging this person, because they had this way of responding to this comment that I have now evaluated. And now I've maybe made some other assumptions about this person that are impacting my interaction with this person, all of these sorts of ways that we are human and in community. [00:56:35] I think if we have a commitment to mindfulness that includes practicing with others, we are always being supported then in deepening our ability to make room to include the so-called other; to learn from others, and to constantly work on ourselves as part of our practice of mindfulness Jeena Cho: [00:56:58] Right. Yeah, and I often think as a society we made it very convenient not to have to interact with others, whatever that other might like. Even just being a lawyer, it means a good bulk of the people that I interact with are lawyers, or they're at least educated (most of them are highly educated). And they all sort of in this social economic group. So even though I may have friends and people in my life that are different culturally and on other spectrums, but we still have this commonality of being in the legal profession. I think it takes intention to interact with people that are very different from you and come from different life experiences. And also (kind of looping back to what you were saying earlier) there can be this feeling like, well I've never had that happen to me, therefore it couldn't have happened to you. I remember telling someone I like that I walk into a courtroom and the judge looked at me and he just said, "Oh you're the Asian language interpreter." Which by the way, the wording of that is so bizarre. But I and shared that with someone, and he was like, "No, I don't believe it. That didn't happen to you.” [00:58:25] And I was like, what do you mean it didn't happen to me? But because he could never imagine that ever happening to him. Because he's different than me. And I think it can be this feeling of, well that's not part of my life experience, therefore, it couldn't have happened to you. Or, it couldn't have happened with the frequency in which it's happening to you. Rhonda Magee: [00:58:47] Right. Or it couldn't have done the harm. Because if somebody says something like that to me, again not knowing the frequency, the cumulative effect, the way it links up with other incidents in our lives, that history. Another person can hear that and say, oh well is that really a big deal? You could easily brush that off. So yeah, mindfulness helps us, and can help us. I do think we need to (as you said) be intentional about this. I don't think this is necessarily an offshoot of mindfulness, because of the ways we're getting trained not to turn toward this aspect in so many other realms of our lives. So we almost have to actually invite an intentional embrace of looking at how it is that we hold the sense of what the real world looks like and is. And how it is necessarily constrained by our own position, experience, limited by that. It's one of the reasons why for me, I kind of see being with others and practicing with others and working with others around these issues as just this great gift that we can have and experience. [01:00:02] Because we need each other; I need to hear your experiences for me to have a better understanding of the full range of experiences that are causing suffering in the world. And I invite and then hope that there will be others who will be open to hearing mine. So developing the desire, not just the capacity (like I can tolerate it) but knowing that you want that, to really work with being a more mindful human being in the world, is something that I think can come with our practice. But it often needs to be invited intentionally in. Jeena Cho: [01:00:45] I think that's the perfect note to end on. Rhonda, thank you so much for sharing your time and your wisdom. Thank you for all the good that you do in the world. Rhonda Magee: [01:00:57] Thank you, and I reflect that 100% back to you Jeena. It's good to be in conversation with you, and I thank you so much for what you're doing and for this chance to be a part of your work today. Closing: [01:01:14] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Lauren Rad on to talk about the importance of nurturing creativity as a lawyer and the wellness benefits that come from utilizing your right brain artistically. Lauren Clark Rad is an attorney at Ferguson Case Orr Paterson LLP in her hometown of Ventura, California, where she practices employment law and business litigation. If you'd like to join a group of stitchers in the law profession, you can find her on Facebook here, or by searching for Legally Stitching. Topics Covered Lauren kicks off the show by talking more in-depth about what she does to cultivate her creativity: knitting! She talks about both the benefits she sees in making time for knitting in her schedule, as well as some of the studies showing knitting's effect on cognitive and emotional health. The reasons knitting is perfect for lawyers because of its tactile nature as well as it's portability and low cost to start, as well as fighting the stigma around knitting and the stares you can receive knitting in public as a lawyer. We talk about the Mindful Lawyer Community and why it is so important to have a creative outlet group, because lawyers are some of the loneliest working professionals out there. We don't get a lot of chances for social interaction depending on our practice, so it is up to us to make a proactive effort to be social and creative. She talks about different ways she harbors a community for knitting, through an ongoing chat and quarterly webinars, tools she uses such as Slack, and knitting as a feminist activity. Resources Mentioned Twitter Thread - Why Knitting? Mindful Lawyers Community Are you interested in learning more about the Mindful Lawyers Community? Complete this short survey and we'll be in touch! Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Lauren Rad: [00:00:06] And the law is kind of like a gas and will expand to fill whatever space you give it. If you give it your entire day, it will find a way to fill your entire day. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. Today I have Lauren Rad on the show, Lauren and I connected on Twitter. So I really love it when I meet lawyers on Twitter and I get to meet them in real life. So my husband Jeff is from Ventura and his mom still lives there, so I had an opportunity to meet Lauren in person over the holidays last year. Lauren is an attorney and she is from Ventura, California where she practices employment law and business litigation. Also, Lauren and I started a community of lawyers who are into stitching or any kind of needlework. So if you're interested in joining us, you can look for the Facebook group "Legally Stitching," or you can also check out the show notes. And with that, here's Lauren. Lauren, welcome to the show. Lauren Rad: [00:01:39] Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:01:42] Lauren, let's start by just having you give us a quick 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Lauren Rad: [00:01:49] Sure. So I have been working as a practicing litigator for the last eight years. I graduated from law school in 2010 and spent my first three years at a large firm in downtown L.A. And after about that time was when my husband and I were starting to think about what we really wanted our long-term life to look like. So we figured we wanted to be closer to family and decided to move up to Ventura, which is where I'm from originally. And I landed a job in a wonderful little firm up here where I've been practicing ever since. Our clients are mostly local businesses, small companies, and individuals out in the community. So I really like having that local client base and getting to meet face-to-face with people on a regular basis. So that is what my practice looks like now. In the in-between time, you can usually find me stitching somewhere; there's always a bundle of yarn and needles in my purse (except when I go into the courthouse because they won't let me take the needles in there). Other than that, I'm stitching during the break time, I'm playing with my toddler, and hanging out with lovely folks on Twitter. Jeena Cho: [00:02:55] Great. So the reason why I wanted to have you on this show is because you and I are starting a Mindful Lawyer Community, and we'll talk a little bit more about that later in the show. But I wanted to start the conversation by talking about why it's important for lawyers to cultivate and nurture their creative side. And I know that you actually started knitting as a way to kind of cultivate more time for downtime and relaxation, and also to tap into your creativity. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got into knitting? [00:03:38] Sure. So I'm hearing actually a couple parts to that question, and I'll try to answer them all as I come to them. I started knitting my first semester of law school. My seatmate in my criminal law class taught me how to knit one evening a few weeks before final exams when I was really feeling kind of stressed out and anxious. And I didn't really have good coping skills for that, other than to bury my head and keep trying to study, which as most of us know is a recipe for disaster eventually. So I got together with my friend, we went to the yarn shop together. She helped me pick out my first set of needles and my first couple balls of yarn, and we sat down over a pot of tea and she taught me the basics. And I've kind of been stitching ever since. It's been my coping technique for getting through final exams, I knit a blanket while studying for the bar exam, I knit all through practice, and I knit now. There's a lot of data out there showing that lawyers have a particularly high rate of stress, anxiety, and depression. I think most of us have seen that 2016 survey from The ABA that I surveyed I think over 12,000 lawyers, and about two-thirds of them reported dealing with anxiety at some point in their professional life. And another 40 some odd percent of respondents reported dealing with depression at some point during their professional life. Which is a startlingly high number when compared to other fields. And so I think you and I both recognize, and the science is starting to also reflect, that having time for creativity and for engaging different parts of your brain is really helpful for dealing with those pressures and those stressors. And I think particularly given the types of pressures that lawyers deal with and the types of personalities you often see in law, it is extra important to have the time to sit down and do something other than law for a little while. Jeena Cho: [00:05:47] Yeah, it's so true. I think when you're a lawyer there is almost this expectation that we place on ourselves that the only thing we're allowed to do is work and do client stuff. And then if you have a family, you're allotted some time for your family. But to say, "Oh I ' m going to take a painting class, or I'm going to take a writing class, or I'm going to take a knitting class," or whatever it might be. I think as a community we sort of frown upon that, we kind of go shouldn't you be billing right now? Lauren Rad: [00:06:26] There's definitely a lot of pressure there. And the law is kind of like a gas and will expand to fill whatever space you give it. So if you give it your entire day, it will find a way to fill your entire day. Jeena Cho: [00:06:39] Right, especially with the billable hour's system, right? There's always more hours that you can bill, it's sort of like this endless supply of work that never really ends. I think you sometimes hear people say things like, you know why don't you go take up knitting as an insult. And I love this Twitter thread (which we'll also put in the show notes), it's kind of setting the record straight on knitting and why we shouldn't use that phrase as an insult. And I also know that you started knitting while you were at Harvard Law School, so I guess just to kind of back up a little bit while you were in law school and you're sitting there knitting with I guess a small group of other students, how is that received by your other classmates? Lauren Rad: [00:07:39] Well, I think there were probably a lot of people who were confused by it. There were certainly plenty of people who thought it was neat and interesting, and there were a lot of people who kind of rolled their eyes I'm sure, though they didn't do it directly to us (which was very kind of them). But it was certainly unusual. There was a little corner in our Student Center where there was a fireplace and some sofas, and that was particularly cozy during the winter months when it seemed like the snow and the dark was just never-ending. Especially for somebody who had grown up in Ventura and had never seen snow falling from the sky until I lived through my first Massachusetts winter. And so having that that cozy space was really nice, but it also meant that we were a little tucked out of the way because it was a quiet corner. And so we weren't sitting in the middle of the quad, where the entire school could see us as they were passing by. It was certainly something that was very visible to anybody who was nearby, but it wasn't a spectacle. And I think most people thought it was just a charming eccentricity, like so many other people in law school have. Jeena Cho: [00:08:53] What are some of the benefits you get out of knitting? I mean obviously you knit something and you create something that you can wear, that others can wear, or that you can gift. But the actual act of knitting? Lauren Rad: [00:09:10] Let's see, where to start? Knitting for me is very much a peaceful, soothing practice. I like to sit quietly in the corner and have that very tactile experience. Practicing law is a very cerebral thing. You don't get to touch a lot of things; you don't get to do a lot of motion. Most of the time you're reading, you're writing, that's about it. And so knitting is really a nice change of pace in that way. It's also very kind of slow, gentle, rhythmic, practice; it helps to slow the breathing, slow the heart rate, slow the racing mind a bit too. So for me, knitting is very much a soothing thing. It's also really nice to have, as you mentioned, a physical product at the end of my work. Where I can point to that and I can say, "I put X number of hours into that and Y number of balls of yarn and Z number of stitches, and here's what I made." There are times when practicing law when we will have an entire day when all you have to show for all the hard work you've done is maybe a couple of pages of notes or some e-mails. [00:10:20] And it is really nice to have a physical work product as kind of a counterweight to that sensation. For me, I also love that knitting is portable and quiet. I am a very fidgety sort of person, and if I'm sitting in a meeting and I'm not keeping my hands busy I find myself tearing little pieces of paper, or clicking my pen nonstop, or popping the lid on and off of my coffee cup without realizing, clicking and unclicking my watch strap. You know, all sorts of unconscious movement. So knitting gives me something to do with my hands that is just enough that it keeps my hands occupied and stops the fidgeting, and lets my brain focus on what's happening in front of me. So I'm not tempted to play with my phone or make a mess of things with my papers, I can just sit and focus and listen. So knitting is very helpful in that aspect as well. Jeena Cho: [00:11:19] You know, I've been sewing for many, many years. I started quilting when I was in college, maybe it was law school I can't remember. I actually really enjoyed learning how to knit with you, because unlike sewing which requires A. a sewing machine, it's just like the amount of supplies that you need. Even to just start a basic sewing project (unless you're willing to sew by hand) there's a considerable amount of financial commitment. And with knitting, all you need are needles and a ball of yarn. I feel like there's a really great, easy entry into learning how to knit. Lauren Rad: [00:12:06] Absolutely. I love that it's got a low up-front cost for starting and that the learning curve is very easy. You can pick up the basics in one or two hours. As you and I both know, we both learned the initial aspects of knitting in one session with a friend showing us what to do. [00:12:23] And that's one of the things that I think makes it so great for lawyers and law students too, is you don't have to invest three years into learning how to do something before you're proficient enough that you can show another person. It's not like taking up the piano from the beginning and having to practice every day for an hour for two or three years before you're competent enough that you can play a reasonably interesting piece; it's something that you can really learn the basics of pretty quickly. But on the other hand, once you learn the basics there are infinite variations on the basics and so many things beyond that so that you really never stop learning. I've been doing this for a decade now, and I'm only just getting into interesting questions of sweater construction; how do I do an inset shoulder versus a round yolk sweater, or do I want to do a raglan yolk? And all of those different design details that I haven't really thought about before because I was working from other people's patterns, but now that I've started designing my own that opens up a whole new door of things to learn. So it's easy to learn, but then it also has a whole bunch of things that you can take up later down the line if you want to. Jeena Cho: [00:13:40] Yeah, yeah definitely. Maybe we can shift gears and talk about the Mindful Lawyer Community. To start, why is it important for lawyers to have a community, specifically around mindfulness and creativity? Lauren Rad: [00:13:56] Well you know, there was an interesting study that came out within the last month or so that looked at the rates of loneliness among different professions. And I was really struck by the fact that it looks like lawyers are some of the loneliest professionals out there. They use the loneliness scale to rate the loneliness of the various survey respondents, and 61 % of the lawyers who responded showed above average levels of loneliness in their responses. Which wasn't really a surprise to me; the law is in one way a very social profession, because you do have to meet with clients and you have to work with teammates. But in other ways, it can be very isolating if you spend your days at your desk, working on your computer, researching and writing, and you may not have much chance to interact with people on some days. And depending on the kind of practice you have, you really may not interact with a lot of people on a daily basis. If you have a small solo practice, or if you have a practice that your subject matter doesn't require you to go out and do a ton of discovery or witness interviews, you may not be meeting with clients all that regularly. And so I think it is understandable that lawyers are fairly lonely as a profession. We've both seen in our interactions with people in real life and online that lawyers are really looking for a community of some sort, where they can come together in a less stressful and less competitive environment. [00:15:30] I notice that a lot of the extracurricular activities that are pushed towards lawyers can still be kind of stressful. Whether it's getting involved in your local bar association, where there's a lot of pressure to do things exactly perfectly and put on a good impression for all the other local community members. Or whether it's getting involved in something like a local sports league, where there are winners and losers every time. And I think there's a real need and a craving for a space where people can just come together and just be. [00:16:07] So I'm really excited that we have something like this, where everybody is able to contribute something, nobody's contribution is more valuable than another, and everybody can get something out of it. I think that's very special. Jeena Cho: [00:16:23] Yeah, the thing I always notice is that there are no easy answers. Like how do I be more mindful in my day to day interactions with other people, how do I be more mindful of my interactions with myself? How do I find time for creative outlets, how do I learn to incorporate a new hobby into my life? Or even finding ways of practicing law with purpose and meaning. All of these questions are I think ones that we all sort of struggle with and are turning over in our heads, but there are no easy answers. And I think there's just so much value in sort of living the question and holding those questions, and also doing it in community. Because someone might say, oh you know this is how I find time to meditate every morning. And a lightbulb might go off and go, oh I can totally do that and that's totally how I can make this work in my own schedule. So I think that idea of cross-pollinating, and also just realizing that the struggles that you have aren't unique to you, you know? Lauren Rad: [00:17:38] Absolutely, I think there is a lot to be said for the fact that loneliness and stress and isolation can make you feel like you're the only one who is experiencing certain things. And just the fact of having a community where other people can say, "Oh, you too? Me too!" is crucial. You know, having that space where you can have those shared experiences and realize that you're not alone is so helpful. Jeena Cho: [00:18:12] Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I really love about knitting is that it can be a solo activity, but you can also do it in community. And I think that's really one of the great joys and benefits of taking up a hobby like knitting. Lauren Rad: [00:18:32] Absolutely. You know one of the things I love about knitting is that it's something you can teach yourself, but it's so much easier to learn from somebody else. And so from the very beginning, it is something that introduces you into a community through the process of learning. You know, you become part of this lineage of knitters who've taught each other over the years. There's something very special about having that tie to people who went before me; I draw a deep sense of comfort and stability out of having that connection with generations of people before me. And knitting becomes something that you can do in community anywhere; you can have a knitting circle that meets at a local coffee shop, or a local yarn shop, or the park. I have a lawyer knitting circle that meets at my office once a month. We use one of the conference rooms here and we all bring whatever project we're working on, and I put out some tea and some carrot sticks or whatever we have on hand for snacks and we just spend an hour and a half talking and knitting. In fact, it's really neat to have that space where we all bring something, we all leave with something. Jeena Cho: [00:19:46] Ahh, I love that. I wish I was physically closer to you so I can join you in your monthly knitting. Lauren Rad: [00:19:52] Agreed, you would fit in perfectly. Jeena Cho: [00:19:57] And that actually ties in nicely with the community that we're building, the Mindful Lawyer Community. So you and I circulated this survey, which we'll also include in the show notes for the listeners out there that are interested in getting involved. But there was a very sort of clear theme and feedback that we got, (I think we got probably close to about 200 responses) and certainly this is true in my own life experience so it didn't surprise me that the folks that responded to the survey also said this, that lawyering can be really isolating and lonely. It doesn't matter if you're working in a law firm with 500 lawyers, you can still feel lonely and isolated. And we're looking for a community where we can share our challenges and just get support; this wanting to have a sense of belonging and having a connection with ourselves and others. And also I got the sense that there's a growing generation of lawyers that are sort of rejecting this old way of practicing law that lawyering doesn't have to be a life of misery and dread. That we can find purpose and meaning and joy in what we do, and that we want to create a life where it feels sustainable and good. Lauren Rad: [00:21:29] Yeah, I think you've really covered my thoughts on that point. I've been spending a lot of time over the last several years thinking about what a good community looks like and what makes a good community, and how to build connections between people. Because that's something that's very important to me, is trying to help as many people feel connected to each other as possible. And I think one of the most important things about having a strong community is that you have a trust economy when everyone trusts each other and you all buy into that community and you've all committed to the community; that really forges strong ties. And that's something that I think this community can really bring to the table, is the fact that we are talking about scary topics for a lot of lawyers. You know, people come in and they say I have struggled with these things in my professional life, and I want to find a way to cope in a better way with them, and I want to share the things that I've learned to cope with other people who might be struggling. And all of those things really build a level of trust among everybody that I think is crucial to having a good, strong community. And I'm really excited to see where it goes. Jeena Cho: [00:22:45] Yeah. Can you talk briefly about what is this community that we're building, the platform, and also what's included in the membership? Lauren Rad: [00:22:59] Yeah, absolutely. So the community is really designed to encourage three things: it's designed to foster connections between lawyers, it's designed to help them incorporate mindfulness practices into their daily lives (in all sorts of different ways, and in whatever ways works best for them), and it's designed to help introduce a little more creativity and play into everybody's daily lives. One of the things that we see from our survey respondents is that a lot of them are really looking for a way to incorporate just a little bit of fun into their everyday lives. They may not have time for three hours on something, but they have time for a five-minute writing exercise, or assembling a five-song playlist, or taking a picture of something unusual. And so that's one of the things that we really want to encourage with everybody. We're starting out with a Slack community. For those who are new to the Slack platform, it is very simple and very easy to use. I describe it to some people as kind of like the old AOL chat rooms, where things are broken up by subject and you can just go in and talk with people about it. But these are invitation-only communities, so you need to have somebody invite you into the community. So you don't get random people wandering, in saying rude things and then leaving again. This is a much more carefully monitored community. Jeena Cho: [00:24:30] Yeah. Lauren Rad: [00:24:31] We are also, as part of that community we have separate discussion channels set up for mindfulness, for daily creative writing exercises. We have a general channel, where people can talk about whatever they feel like. And then we'll be adding more over the next couple of months or so. We're also planning to have monthly office hours, both with you and with me. Though we have different areas of expertise, so there may be a different audience for those. As you are the mindfulness pro here. That was one of the things that really made me so interested in your Twitter presence, was how thoughtful and gentle you were with everything that you were sharing. And I think people will respond well to that. And then I am sort of the yarn and sticks guru, for lack of a better phrase. So if they have questions about knitting projects that they're starting or crochet projects, I can certainly help with that as well. Knitting is my primary yarn craft, but I'm also a proficient crocheter, or a little bit of needlework and embroidery as well. So you know, we can cover those bases there each month. [00:25:44] We're also going to be having quarterly, or perhaps more frequent webinars, everything from mindfulness to creative activities, productivity skills, organizational skills; whatever our members are really interested in, that they think would help them build more fruitful and content practice lives. That's kind of the gist of where we're headed right now. I know you and I have been kicking around lots of other ideas for things that we can add down the line, but that is the core of the Mindful Lawyers Community right now. Jeena Cho: [00:26:21] And for the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about the Mindful Lawyers Community, if you want to come and hang out with us right now and sign up page is at jeenacho.com/mlc, for "Mindful Lawyer Community". That will also be in the show notes, but I think soon the Mindful Lawyer Community will have its own home and a website, and we're really excited. We've gotten some really, really great feedback and the response has been really surprising. So I think it really goes to show that we as lawyers are looking for a different way of practicing law. We want to integrate more mindfulness, creativity, play, and just be like whole human beings. I feel like sometimes as lawyers we forget that we're human beings, that we're not human doings. And I think it's really nice when we can connect with others who are on a similar journey and path. Lauren Rad: [00:27:29] Absolutely. Jeena Cho: [00:27:30] Lauren so before I let you go, I have one more question for you. The name of the podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Lauren Rad: [00:27:41] I think one of the keys to maintaining resilience as a lawyer is not letting the perfectionism throw you off too badly. There are going to be bumps in the road in any practice, and it's easy to think that if you've made a mistake you are a failure and you're not cut out for this and you're never going to be a good lawyer, so you should just give up now. And one of the things that I've learned through my knitting practice is that mistakes happen, and most of the time they're fixable. And most of the time, going back and fixing them isn't actually as painful as you think it's going to be. And that really does map well into professional life as well. There are going to be mistakes, and most of the time they're fixable. If you take a moment, sit down, read the pattern all the way through before you start, think about what you're working on, and have a roadmap for how you're going to get there; if you make an occasional small mistake on the way through, you can usually go back and fix it. And that has really helped me work through some of the perfectionism derailing issues that can cause challenges in day-to-day practice as well. Jeena Cho: [00:28:54] I love that. Lauren, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Lauren Rad: [00:29:00] It's been such a pleasure, thanks for having me. Closing: [00:29:07] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
In this episode, I am excited to have Diane Costigan on to talk about different ways to experience wellness and mindfulness, from meditation to EFT tapping. As a seasoned executive and career coach, Diane works with all levels of attorneys to drive performance and career-related goals. She currently serves as Winston & Strawn's Director of Coaching, where she coaches lawyers on topics such as business development, peak performance, and leadership and career strategy. Diane is a prolific speaker and writer and has been quoted in Forbes, Law360, and Law Practice Magazine. Diane earned her M.A. in Organizational Psychology from Columbia University, and B.A., cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, from the College of the Holy Cross. She has a certificate in Organizational and Executive Coaching from NYU and is an Associate Certified Coach (ACC) with the International Coaching Federation. She is also an Integrative Nutrition Health Coach (INHC) through the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, and a certified Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT/Meridian Tapping) practitioner. Diane is a second-degree black belt in karate and a long time meditator. Topics Covered Diane reflects on how she got into her current career path, and how she feels her spending 10 years consulting at a firm really helped set her up for where she is now. She also talks on how coaching can be such a general term, and defines what she does now. How she first started meditating, the benefits she sees from a regular meditation schedule, and progressive relaxation. She also talks about how her definition of meditation to less organized and formal practices helps her keep a consistency in her meditation exercise, and tips to how she "cheats" it and stays on top of it. She defines the psychological modality of Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT), how this technique is used to cope with emotional and physical pain, as well as your own critical voice. Resources mentioned: thetappingsolution.com EFTUniverse.com Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Diane Costigan: [00:00:04] You know, feel feelings so that you can free them. Intro: [00:00:12] Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:33] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I have Diane Costigan. As a seasoned executive and career coach, Diane works with all levels of attorneys to drive performance and career-related goals. She currently serves as Winston & Strawn's Director of Coaching, where she coaches lawyers on topics such as business development, peak performance, leadership, and career strategy. [00:01:00] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't heard the last episode on The Resilient Lawyer podcast, go back and check it out. I shared just a six-minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers tell me that they know they should meditate, but they just can't seem to find the time. So I wanted to create a course that would make it really easy for the busy lawyers to fit it into their very busy schedule, it's just six minutes a day. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you; think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to jeenacho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Diane. Diane, welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. I'm so happy to have you. Diane Costigan: [00:02:03] Thanks Jeena, it's such an honor to be part of this podcast so thank you for inviting me. I'm really grateful. Jeena Cho: [00:02:09] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction to who you are and what you do. Diane Costigan: [00:02:16] Sure. I'm an integrative coach and I help lawyers successfully reach their goals by tapping into and/or increasing their personal power and resourcefulness. I like to think of myself as a resource for them to leverage along their path to success, and also happiness because I don't think they're mutually exclusive, even in the law. Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I'm often surprised by lawyers that will look at me sideways when I mention that word, happiness. "We're lawyers; we're not supposed to be happy." You know, it seems like no one really goes through life thinking, "I'm going to be as miserable as possible." That's such an innately human thing to desire, happiness and peace and love. And all those words that I think some lawyers have an almost allergic reaction to. So you know I feel like you have one of those jobs that is very coveted and everyone would love to have, so how did you end up in-house as a coach? Diane Costigan: [00:03:28] It is funny you say that, because I almost feel like my career path is that I spent 10 years at a law firm doing more professional development type stuff, then I was out as a consultant for 10 years doing coaching, training, and consulting. And now I'm back on the law firm side, and I have said several times that the job I have now is actually the job in hindsight that I really wanted the first time around when I was in a law firm. So it just kind of took me a little bit of time to realize that. But how I got it, I do think that my 10 years of consulting really helped to tee me up nicely for the job. Like I said, I had 10 years of seeing how a law firm works and doing true professional development. And then I had the benefit as a consultant of seeing how different firms approach professional development. And then I was also, during that time (and this was one of the reasons I really left my first law firm job, because I was able to work so personally and one-on-one with so many different lawyers, probably like hundreds of lawyers in the last 10 years) I was really able to see things they all had in common, things that show up differently, and I was able to create programs and training, and just really customize the coaching that I was doing as a consultant. But it kind of got to the place, I loved consulting and I loved the firm, I worked for Volta Talent Strategies, which is an amazing company. But I really got to the point about a year ago where I wanted to just grow some roots, and rejoin a law firm so that I could almost go deeper in a sense, and really learn only one way of doing things or system of doing things. [00:05:23] You know I do a lot of business development coaching for example, and you know when you're an external coach who does business development, you have to understand the compensation and credit system of every firm you're working with. And while there are a lot of similarities, there can be differences. And so it's just nice to be at one place and learn one system, one culture and one way politics shows up. So you know, I think that's sort of how I decided that I wanted to come back to the firm. And then you know, being that I do career coaching I literally put myself through the process I would have suggested to a client as well. I got really clear on what I liked and what I didn't like about my job, I went back and reviewed all the jobs I had had and did the pro-con for all of them. And I think probably the biggest thing I did was informational interviews, you know I talked to people. I think my role is a little different in that I'm working with partners and associates, and I'm doing mostly performance coaching actually, and some career coaching. So I talked to everyone I knew who did something similar or had bits of that job at law firms, and that's sort of how I got the information I needed. But I think how I ended up here specifically at Winston & Strawn, is I followed my longtime mentor Sue Manch. And I really do credit our mentor relationship, but also just staying in touch and networking and you know, really looking to her for any career move I made. And it just, I think all of the stars kind of aligned between all of those things. And so once Sue decided to join Winston and they had already had this position kind of in mind, you know all the stars kind of aligned. Jeena Cho: [00:07:25] Wow. Are you the only full-time coach at the firm, or are there other full-time coaches as well? Diane Costigan: [00:07:31] I'm the only full-time coach, but we do have at least one other person. My colleague Julia Mercier, who is our Director of Planning and Development. She is also a certified coach. And so you know, she's working with me on some coaching things, I'm working with her on some training things; so that's been a really nice synergy. And I do intend at some point, probably calendar year 2019, to train up some of our other internal staff, particularly on the HR side and the Recruiting and Attorney Development side, and then some other people on the Learning and Development team. So we're going to train them at least to have coaching skills; we're really trying to build a total culture of coaching, and that's one way (in addition to my role) that we're going to try to deploy resources to that end. Jeena Cho: [00:08:32] That's great. You know I need to zoom out a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about what coaches do? Because I often find that lawyers don't fully understand what a coach does. Diane Costigan: [00:08:45] Yeah, no that's a great question. You know, coaching at its root is focused on helping you achieve goals that you set that are meaningful to you. And, it's a process. I like to say it's a process of both transformation and empowerment. So transformation meaning, you know something because you're going to have a goal, something will always be different by the end of your time in coaching. And that might be that you've developed a skill further that you wanted to develop, that you have changed or enhanced a way that you're approaching something. It could be accomplishment-based, making partner in a law firm for example, or bringing in a certain amount of business. It could also be changing your mindset around something, or changing beliefs that you have, limiting beliefs that might be getting in the way. Or it could be changing behaviors that you're engaging in that are getting in the way. So it's a process of transformation, and then it's also a process of empowerment in that (in theory) you know, coaches don't tell you what to do; they don't give you the answers. It's not advising or mentoring or counseling. It's really working with you to pull the information from you, as coachee, to reach your goals. So that's in general what coaching is and what coaching can do for lawyers. And I'm probably implementing it in different ways internally, but that's really the route. There's always something that we're working on. Jeena Cho: [00:10:25] Yeah I've worked with various coaches over the course of my career, and I always found that I love working with a coach because they don't have their own agenda; they're fully focused on you and what your goals are. And there's not that many people in your life that play that role; where they're going to really listen to you, ask you really great questions. And I think when I first started working with a coach I was sort-of like, "Okay here's my problem, go solve it." Diane Costigan: [00:10:54] Exactly, yep. Diane Costigan: [00:10:55] That's not what happens at all, it's like okay, let me ask you some questions about your specific questions or your issue. Sometimes they ask one right question and you see the problem in a completely different way and I think that's where the magic in coaching happens. Diane Costigan: [00:11:14] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for a mentor the compliment you can give is, wow that was really good advice. And I think for a coach the best compliment you can get is, wow that was a really great question. But I agree, I would be staffed up with coaches all the time if I could. I do work with my own coach. But I mean, I've used coaches for a ton of different things. And you're right, it is kind of a luxury to have someone who's just intently focused on you. Jeena Cho: [00:11:44] Yeah, totally. So I know that you and I also have, well we lots of different things in common. But I know you meditate. So, will you share a little bit about your journey, how did you start meditating? Diane Costigan: [00:12:00] I've definitely had a long journey with meditation, I probably started later in my teenage years, it kind of started where I would drift in and out and it wasn't a full-time thing, but I would say in the last ten to 15 years it's been more of a constant in my life. And I think I got into it as a teenager, someone introduced me to a progressive relaxation. Have you ever done progressive relaxation, where you tense your muscles and then release them with breath? It's a great stress reliever. So someone introduced me to that, and so that's kind of like my early day's entry into it. And then I went to a Jesuit college, and I did this five-day silent retreat. I think it was five days, anyway, it was such a powerful transformational experience. I mean, really when in your life do you ever. I mean for an extrovert like me it was incredibly intimidating and frustrating, but so, so powerful. Because really, when do you get that kind of time just yourself and your thoughts? So you know, that definitely got me more into it. And then I guess I got into it also as I started getting deeper, I started to really see there are spiritual benefits to it. Anyone who's sort of a seeker or really always working on personal development, I think there are lots of benefits so you know, that was probably the next kind of wave for me. And I did this online course through the Meditation Society of Australia, which was so amazing and lovely and I just love to hear their Australian accent, that really helped. [00:13:48] So that got me even deeper, and then I think shortly before I left my first law firm job, I really got into (and it's still a big part of my own practice as a coach) just focusing on stress management. Then I got more into seeing the benefits of meditation from that angle and the neuroscience, so that pulled me in a little bit deeper. But I guess I would say over the last 10 or 15 years, I've had a very regular practice where I probably meditate every weekday. I mean I shouldn't say every, you know sometimes when I'm traveling or I don't sleep well it doesn't happen. But I try to meditate every morning before work for about half an hour. And then on the weekends, I try to do something else that's meditation but not so organized or formal, maybe some focused reading or quiet time or just doing something I'm really interested in. But I think if somebody put me on a panel and asked me, if you could only pick one tool for success in life and career what would it be? Hands down, no question I would say meditation. Jeena Cho: [00:15:14] Yeah, I feel the same way. It's like one of the most important things I do in my life. And I can tell the difference on the days when I don't meditate, it's funny because sometimes if I go for like a week without meditating, my husband can notice and he'll be like, "Are you meditating?" So it makes a difference, yeah [00:15:43] So I think one of the things that are such a challenge, especially for lawyers who are so busy, is actually getting your butt in the chair or on the cushion and actually doing it. Do you have tricks or habits or other things you do to make it easier to habitualize that practice? Diane Costigan: [00:16:07] Yeah, I have a few. I think one is, I like to say I cheat it. And what I mean by that is I think you need to find a way to meditate that works for you. And sometimes (and this is true for me) it's not sitting formally. I do have a sisyama bench and very rarely I will get it out and sit, fully erect and straight up, with my hands and some Mudra position and I meditate. But for me, what I have found works is I meditate laying down. And sometimes I don't even get out of bed, truthfully. But most days I get out of bed, I basically commute from my bed to our couch. I get a heating pad, this will change in the summer but certainly, for the winter months I get a heating pad and I put it under my back. I wrap myself in a cozy blanket and then I put one of those sleeping masks over my eyes. I put headphones in and for now I mostly do guided meditations. Occasionally I'll lead myself in meditation, but I think because I have a job that's so people-facing to me it's such a luxury to have someone else tell me what to do, or guide me through something. [00:17:37] And for me, it just feels so good and it's such a critical part of my self-care. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's like I'm creating this safe womb experience for myself. And it's just such a powerful way to start my day, I only do it for half an hour, and I look forward to it. So I think if you can do it in a way that works for you, that you look forward to, that's great. But I guess what I tell lawyers who are interested in meditating is, and I know you'll relate to this. I think there are several challenges, but one is I think they set bars (no pun intended) so high for themselves that you know, if they can't be on an ashram in a week-long meditation retreat, they don't want to do it. Or you know, they feel like they're not doing it right. So I always say, set realistic expectations when you're beginning a practice. So even if you're meditating for one minute, you don't want to go from meditating zero minutes a day, zero days a week to trying to do it for an hour, five days a week. And there are lots of good apps out there, I mean that's what I love about your six-minute meditation. I just think that's genius. And I have something similar where I say, 'everyone has 10 minutes.' Like everyone has ten minutes, especially you have to have ten minutes if it's something good for you. Ten minutes or something good for you is better than no minutes of nothing good for you. [00:19:17] And I guess my other recommendation I usually make to busy lawyers is to go for guided meditation. I mean, I think going for an eight-week MBSR course really works for some people and they come to a place in their life where that's what they need. And that's great, but it can be too much for other people. So just going to something where you're popping headphones in and listening to a guided meditation is a great way to whet the appetite. And then you build from there, instead of trying to do something that's not realistic and then not feeling good about not keeping up with it, and then running a bad or negative script in your head about it. Jeena Cho: [00:20:05] Right, totally. Yeah. And that desire to do things perfectly, you know I think when you start to meditate that shows up so strongly. And that's sort of the funny thing about meditation, you start to notice I do have this perfectionist tendency. and so be it myself enticed allow myself to do this as I am you know. And I think that's such a critical reason for doing this practice, like whatever your idea of a perfect meditation practice is, letting go and just showing up as you are. Diane Costigan: [00:20:48] Yeah, I think also another myth that I think many people have but I know lawyers specifically have, is this worry or myth that they have to quiet their minds to be able to medicate. They say, I just have so many thoughts I can't stop them, and so I'll say awesome, you're going to be an amazing meditator. Because that's what you do in meditation. We're not trying to stop the train of thought, we're just trying to sit with it, label it, be with it, inquire about it, process it, and then let it go. So I think there are a lot of misconceptions, and that's a big one. Jeena Cho: [00:21:31] Yeah, and I think what you said about starting small, to me that's the key. You know, if you don't have half an hour do fifteen minutes, if you don't have fifteen minutes do five, but do it as close to daily as you possibly can. And then also if you don't do the practice for a while.. and that's the other place where I notice a lot of lawyers will get tripped up. Because they'll do the practice for a while, let's say ten days. And they're feeling great, they're starting to notice that they're feeling a little bit less stressed and they have a little spaciousness. And then something comes up and then they don't meditate for five days, and then it's like well I didn't meditate for the last five days, so therefore I failed at this, and I might as well just not do it at all. And it's like no, you can just pick up right there. Just start on that day; let go of all the negative self-talk and the self-judgment and just begin again. And again, I feel like that's another thing that meditation teaches, is that you can just pick things up and continue your practice. And letting go of all the inner narrations of not doing it perfectly and not doing enough, and on and on and on. Diane Costigan: [00:22:43] No, absolutely. I think that's a lot of what happens in coaching too. If somebody is on the business development side and they're working on moving their conversations more to the professional side from the personal side if they're trying to convert a personal friendship to get business. And we might be working on different strategies for them to do that, and they may be implementing them but then there's one day where they didn't, for whatever reason. And they'll come back in the next time, and to your point its like, "It's an epic fail." They kind of catastrophize about it. And I'll just say, "Well let's just do an automatic do-over." Right? The point is you're aware now; you might not have been aware, or maybe you were aware and you made a choice not to do it, it doesn't even matter. In this current moment of awareness, what are your choices? So what might you have done differently, what's your plan moving forward? But let's just leverage the awareness wherever it's happening. Jeena Cho: [00:23:52] Yeah. So shifting gears a little bit from meditation to Emotional Freedom Technique, and I'm actually not that familiar with that is. So can you start by explaining what it is? Diane Costigan: [00:24:05] Sure. Emotional Freedom Technique or tapping or EFT is basically a modality, it's an energy, psychology, modality where you simultaneously use your fingers to tap on different Meridian points from the acupuncture/acupressure system, while you're talking about or experiencing something that's uncomfortable or painful. Whether its physical pain, emotional pain, or even the pain of being in that critical voice that you mentioned before. And what it does is while you are stimulating the acupressure points, it actually switches on the relaxation response. So it basically pulls your body, your nervous system out of the fight or freeze response, so that you can then experience whatever's going on while you're being calm about it. [00:25:10] I've probably been tapping for about 15 years, and similar to meditation I got into it originally for public speaking. Because I had a huge (and I know that's something else you and I share) really deep fear of public speaking. And so I used EFT to work on my anxiety around that, and then I would kind of come back to it over the years. But I would say probably six years ago it ended up back on my radar screen, and it's something I do every day. I really believe in it so much that I got certified in it, and it just has so many benefits. I mean first and foremost, it's a stress-reduction tool. Who doesn't need one of those in their toolbox, right? So it physiologically reduces stress, but I think it also is so powerful to help you process that critical voice; those unhelpful thoughts and emotions that we have that then inform maladaptive behaviors that get in the way of our success. So that's the upside, the downside of tapping is it sounds a little weird and it looks a little weird. [00:26:34] I've been saying EFT is in new meditation, because 10 or 15 years ago when I was trying to introduce meditation to law firms, people would look at me like I was crazy. And then it kind of shifted to this interest but resistance to it, where they'd say okay let's talk about meditation or mindfulness but can we not call it that, can we call it something else? And now it's so mainstream, everyone wants to talk about it. Before I left my firm, we were getting so many requests for proposals on meditation stuff, and I refer people all the time who are interested. So I think EFT is the new meditation, I have tapped with a number of lawyers at this point. I did a stress management workshop here at Winston for our first and second years, and I had them meditating and tapping. So I do think that's my next big passion is to try to bring that in more of a powerful way to the legal community, because I just think it's so helpful. And even when I'm not necessarily having someone tap, I'm kind of using the armature or the structure of EFT, which is really feel feelings so that you can free them. [00:28:07] And I know this is true for me but I know for many of the lawyers I work with, sometimes when they get into trouble from a stress management perspective or if they're just blocked from their goals or their success, it's often because they're not allowing themselves to feel the emotions that are coming up for them. I think sometimes we either stuff down our emotions and just ignore them or deny them. And unfortunately, they'll come out somewhere at some point, and probably not in a helpful way. Or we just hunker down, as my coach likes to say, "We unpack our bags and stay there." And emotion is energy in motion, and if you're stuffing it down or if you're staying in it, it's not doing its job of moving through you. And so EFT (and other modalities, it's not the only one) is a really effective tool for giving you some peace and calm to feel those feelings and to process them. So even if I'm not tapping with someone, I may be asking them what's the predominant feeling they have about that. And then we'll go through, which you can do in meditation as well right. Once you create that space and once you can detach from the emotion, you can explore it. Is it appropriate, does it make sense that you're feeling anger right now? [00:29:45] And sometimes the answer is yes so then you go to the next question, and sometimes the answer is no and that's all it takes. But if the answer is yes and okay, sounds like based on what you're telling me anger is an appropriate emotion, we might explore why the person's angry, what the system around that anger is. Or we might say okay, well sounds like it's valid that you're feeling anger. Is that a helpful emotion for you to be feeling, based on what you're working on? And sometimes it is, anger can be a very helpful emotion if it inspires you to action around something, whether it's standing up for yourself or setting a boundary. But again, you don't want to stay in that anger; you want to use it for what it can do for you and then move past it. Jeena Cho: [00:30:36] Right, it's just like fuel and you can kind of propel yourself forward and move through it. You know, I didn't realize the tapping technique was called Emotional Freedom Technique, because I've done it before with my therapist. So I was like oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. So for folks who might want to try it, where do they go to learn how to do this? Is this something they have to go see a therapist for, where would you learn this? Diane Costigan: [00:31:06] That's such a great question, and to me that's one of the best parts about EFT and similar to meditation; you don't have to go to a tapping practitioner to do it, you can do it on yourself and so it's very effective and versatile. I would suggest, I'm a big fan of The Tapping Solution, and their website is thetappingsolution.com. And they have a number of books, they have just a general The Tapping Solution Approach to Stress and Anxiety, they've got a book about how to use tapping for weight loss and body confidence, they have one for chronic pain. So they have lots of different resources. And then another good resource is eftuniverse.com. And that's where I did my training and my certification. But I think one of the best parts is you can work with someone, but you can also do it for yourself. And I would also go onto YouTube. There are lots of wonderful YouTube videos. The EFT practitioner that I work with who is amazing, her name is Julie Schiffman and she has a number of videos that I will often send lawyers links to. Like I will introduce the concept of tapping if I think it will be helpful, and then if they seem skeptical I'll send them a video and then we might do it the next time. And then Brad Yates is another EFT practitioner who has a lot of really wonderful videos. It's so wonderful to hear that your therapist uses tapping, I think it's such a great complement to a therapeutic practice, but I would say if you're tapping on things that are rooted in trauma I would definitely recommend that you work with a certified practitioner. Jeena Cho: [00:33:11] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, we covered a lot of ground today. So one final question before I let you go: what makes a resilient lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Diane Costigan: [00:33:28] To me, it's about taking ownership of their well-being. When I think of resilience, I think about the ability to bounce back from things that are stressful. And I think to be able to do that, you have to be on top of your stress management game, and paying attention to your well-being. So I think as part of that, it's the willingness to be aware: aware of what might not be working (with respect to your well-being,), and a willingness to work on that. To look at the things that aren't working, and put yourself through a process of working on that. And I think resilient lawyers really understand that it is both a practice and a process. It's not like you all of a sudden in the mail get this diploma that says you're fully resilient, right? I mean, it's something that we constantly have to work at. So it's a process and you're always learning, but the process is fueled by the practice. It's about showing up every day and engaging in self-care, whether that's meditation, nutrition, exercise, getting time out in nature, spending time with the people who are really important to you in life, or hopefully a combination of all of those things. That's part of the everyday practice that will help you to be more and more resilient. And I think resilient lawyers get that. [00:35:10] But I think it also (this may be a way longer answer than you were looking for) involves courage. Even if it starts with a tiny nugget of courage, but its courage to stand up for yourself. It's courage to set boundaries where you need to set boundaries, it's courage to say no to the things you need to say no to, the courage to say yes to the things that will stretch you and help you build that practice of resilience. But I think, I'm probably going to end up alliterating here because I just love alliteration, but I think it also involves a level of compassion, particularly compassion for themselves. To your point, if you don't meditate for five days, there's no reason to self-flagellate about it. Self-compassion is much more of a resiliency skill there, to say hey it happens, and here I am going to pick it up again. And I think they also are good communicators, they're willing to communicate about their feelings, what they need, when somebody has pushed a boundary, and maybe even apologizing when they've pushed a boundary. So I think those are some of the ingredients that go into being a resilient layer. Jeena Cho: [00:36:30] Thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom with us today, I really appreciate. Diane Costigan: [00:36:36] Thank you so much, thank you for having me. I'm really grateful. Closing: [00:36:42] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
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