Podcasts about nigerian constitution

The Nigerian Constitution defines clear roles for the executive and legislative arms of government. But in reality, these roles often overlap or clash. In this episode of Nigeria Daily, we look at how the two arms of government should relate and how their relationship is playing out today.

The office of Nigeria's Vice President is one of the highest in the land, yet remains widely misunderstood. While many see it as merely symbolic, the Constitution outlines specific powers and responsibilities that often go unnoticed. In this episode of Nigeria Daily, we intend to analyse the legal framework, political dynamics, and public perception surrounding the country's number two office.

President Muhammadu Buhari has been urged to immediately reverse what has been described as the unlawful, unjust and unreasonable increase in electricity tariff, which reportedly occurred in December 2022. SERAP's Deputy Director, Kolawole Oluwadare, wants Buhari to ensure the investigation of the spending of public funds as ‘investments and bailouts' by successive governments to electricity distribution companies (DisCos) and generating companies (GenCos) since 2005, and prosecution of cases of corruption and mismanagement.” The rights group stated that the increase in electricity tariff failed to follow due process. It is entirely inconsistent and incompatible with the provisions of the Nigerian Constitution of 1999 [as amended], the Electric Power Sector Reform Act and the country's international human rights obligations.This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4090160/advertisement

Mental health issues require first aid in the same way physical health issues do. In this podcast Tom Pearson and his guests discuss what's being done to overcome the stigma attached to mental health issues and why first aiders are required in the workplace and society. The difficulty in trying to find an outlet to talk about mental health drove Lynnette Etemesi and Timothy Asobele Emmanuel Dare, both lawyers, to create separate platforms for those affected by the illness. Etemesi, from The Stability Network in Kenya, and Dare, who represents the Anti-Suicide and Depression Squad (ASADS) in Nigeria, said while moves were being made to address mental health wellbeing in their respective countries, there was a lot more work to be done. This work should include decriminalising attempted suicide, a crime that carries a three year jail sentence in Kenya, said Etemesi. “Suicide is a cry for help. So you can't necessarily charge somebody for attempted suicide and take them to prison instead of helping them out,” she emphasised. “You need to understand (that when someone attempts suicide) it's not from a criminal perspective, but it is based on whatever it is that is happening around this person and they don't have the mental strength to be able to deal with it.” Etemesi said while Kenya had crafted a sound mental health policy for the period 2015 to 2030, seven years later, it was still to be implemented. In Nigeria, Dare said, the Mental Health Law in their Bill of Rights was outdated and had to be reformed to address the problem. “When you read the Nigerian Constitution, you realise that you are sort of against people who have any sort of mental health issues,” he commented, adding that it was important for those in governments across Africa to champion legislation in favour of people with the illness, and for the legal sector to fund legitimate organisations working with sufferers. Both Etemesi and Dare are strong proponents of mental health first aiders, a career or job title that's cropping up at firms in the United Kingdom (UK), although it was started in Australia in the year 2000. Liz Giles has been a mental health first aider at the UK Justice Ministry for the past 18 months. She said the role entailed being receptive and understanding of people who might be in a certain situation that they just don't want to go through. Her appointment came at the time when Covid-19 hit, and the psychological effect of lockdown took its toll. “It's just about having somebody outside your team. You know they're not going to judge you. It can be really informal sometimes; you might not get into any sort of depth of conversation, but it's just about having someone there and you know it's a safe space,” Giles explained.

Vice President Yemi Osinbajo on Monday declared his intention to run for the presidential seat in the 2023 election, under the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC).Below is his full declaration speech:WHY I AM RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, BY OSINBAJO*My experiences, insights, opportunities must be used for Nigeria and Nigerians, VP addsIn the past seven years, I have served as Vice President under a true Nigerian patriot, a servant of the nation in war and peace, and a man of integrity, President Muhammadu Buhari.We have, together, worked through some of the most difficult times in the history of our Nation, but we have remained focused on securing the country, providing infrastructure and growing our economy.As stipulated by the Nigerian Constitution, our tenure will end next year.In this period of seven years, I have served the government in several capacities, and have, at the direction of Mr. President, represented our country in sensitive high level international engagements. I have been to practically all local governments in Nigeria. I have been in markets, factories, schools, and farms. I have been in agricultural, mining and oil producing communities; in the Delta, in Kebbi, Enugu, Borno; Rivers, Plateau and Ondo; & in all other States of the federation, listening to the diverse experiences and yearnings of our people.I have visited our gallant troops in the North East and our brothers and sisters in the IDP camps. I have felt the pain and anguish of victims in violent conflicts, terrorist attacks, flooding, fire and other disasters.I have been in the homes of many ordinary Nigerians in various parts of the country. I have sat with our techprenuers in Lagos, Edo, and Kaduna, with our Nollywood and Kannywood actors; with our musicians, from Lagos, Onitsha, and Kano. And I have spoken to small and large businesses.I stood where they stood and sat where they sat. I know their hopes, aspirations and fears; and I believe that in those hopes and aspirations are the seeds for the great Nigeria that we all desire.I believe that the very reason why the Almighty God gave me these experiences, these insights, and these opportunities, is that they must be put to the use of our country and it's great peoples.Which is why I am today, with utmost humility, formally declaring my intention to run for the Office of the President, Federal Republic of Nigeria, on the platform of our great party, the All Progressives Congress.If by the grace of God and the will of the people, I am given the opportunity, then I believe that first, we must complete what we have started;*radically transforming our security and intelligence architecture,*completing the reform of our justice system focusing on adequate remuneration and welfare of judicial personnel,*ensuring justice for all and the observance of rule of law,*rapidly advancing our infrastructure development, especially power, roads, railways and broadband connectivity,*providing an excellent environment for businesses to thrive,*taking the agriculture revolution to the next level especially mechanization and developing the farm to table value chain*making sure that the government, its agencies and regulators serve the business community,*creating a tech economy that will provide jobs for millions;*enhancing our Social Investment Programme to a full scale social welfare scheme,*completing the promise of lifting 100 million Nigerians out of poverty within this decade,*completing the task of ensuring that all Nigerians, male and female, attend school,*reforming our educational system for relevance to the challenges of this century,*completing the task of universal health coverage for all,and*strengthening the capacity of States and Local Governments to deliver on their respective mandates.Above all, front and centre of our efforts will be the provision of jobs and opportunities for our young people.I now most solemnly and respectfully seek the support of fellow Nigerians everywhere in this land, and the diaspora, young and old, male and female, in the great and exciting journey that we have ahead of us.We will, working together, establish by the grace of God, the Nigeria of our dreams in a few short years. We will build on the foundation laid by our predecessors. We will need to move, with much speed, intentionality, and perseverance, towards the vision of a prosperous, stable, and secure nation.I am convinced beyond doubt that we have the creativity, the courage, the talent, and the resources to be the foremost black nation on earth. Let us now birth the expectations of greatness conceived generations before us.Let us build a Nigeria where the man from Nnewi sees the man in Gusau as his brother, where the woman in Warri sees the woman in Jalingo as her sister, where the love of our nation burns alike in the hearts of boys and girlsfrom Gboko to Yenogoa. Where everywhere, in this land, is home for everyone, where our diversities, tribes and faiths unite, rather than divide us.Let our tribes become one tribe; the Nigerian tribe, where all are treated fairly, justly and with respect. Where all are given equal access to the abundant opportunities that God has bestowed on this nation. It's time.God bless and keep our Republic and its great people.Prof. Yemi Osinbajo, SANVice President, Federal Republic of NigeriaMonday April 11, 2022

Finally, the long-awaited Electoral Amendment Bill had been signed into law by  President Muhammadu Buhari.This comes barely a week to the expiration of the window the President has to make a decision on the proposed legislation, as required by the Nigerian Constitution.In this episode of Nigeria Daily, we discuss ways in which the Act is going to radically change elections in Nigeria.

Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has urged President Muhammadu Buhari to use his good offices and leadership position to direct the Minister of Information and Culture, Alhaji Lai Mohammed to provide the organization with a copy of the agreement recently signed with Twitter, Inc, and to widely publish the details of any such agreement. SERAP also urged him to direct Alhaji Lai Mohammed to clarify the manner and scope in which the agreement with Twitter will be enforced, including whether the agreement incorporates respect for human rights, consistent with the Nigerian Constitution 1999 [as amended] and international obligations

Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has urged President Muhammadu Buhari to use his good offices and leadership position to direct the Minister of Information and Culture, Alhaji Lai Mohammed to provide the organization with a copy of the agreement recently signed with Twitter, Inc, and to widely publish the details of any such agreement. SERAP also urged him to direct Alhaji Lai Mohammed to clarify the manner and scope in which the agreement with Twitter will be enforced, including whether the agreement incorporates respect for human rights, consistent with the Nigerian Constitution 1999 [as amended] and international obligations

Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has urged President Muhammadu Buhari to use his good offices and leadership position to direct the Minister of Information and Culture, Alhaji Lai Mohammed to provide the organization with a copy of the agreement recently signed with Twitter, Inc, and to widely publish the details of any such agreement. SERAP also urged him to direct Alhaji Lai Mohammed to clarify the manner and scope in which the agreement with Twitter will be enforced, including whether the agreement incorporates respect for human rights, consistent with the Nigerian Constitution 1999 [as amended] and international obligations

Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has filed a lawsuit against President Muhammadu Buhari.The group is asking the court to declare illegal and unconstitutional the plan by the administration to track, intercept and monitor WhatsApp messages, phone calls, and text messages of Nigerians and other people, as it severely threatens and violates the right to the preservation of privacy.”SERAP is seeking a declaration that any monitoring of WhatsApp messages, phone calls and text messages is oppressive and draconian, as it threatens and violates sections 37 and 39 of the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended.

Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has filed a lawsuit against President Muhammadu Buhari.The group is asking the court to declare illegal and unconstitutional the plan by the administration to track, intercept and monitor WhatsApp messages, phone calls, and text messages of Nigerians and other people, as it severely threatens and violates the right to the preservation of privacy.”SERAP is seeking a declaration that any monitoring of WhatsApp messages, phone calls and text messages is oppressive and draconian, as it threatens and violates sections 37 and 39 of the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended.

Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has filed a lawsuit against President Muhammadu Buhari.The group is asking the court to declare illegal and unconstitutional the plan by the administration to track, intercept and monitor WhatsApp messages, phone calls, and text messages of Nigerians and other people, as it severely threatens and violates the right to the preservation of privacy.”SERAP is seeking a declaration that any monitoring of WhatsApp messages, phone calls and text messages is oppressive and draconian, as it threatens and violates sections 37 and 39 of the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended.

Governors from the southern region of Nigeria have declared their support for the collection of Value Added Tax by state governments, in place of the Federal Inland Revenue Service.Chairman of the Forum and Ondo State Governor, Oluwarotimi Akeredolu, made the position of the governors known in a communique issued at the end of the meeting.He says the meeting resolved to support the position that the collection of VAT falls within the powers of the states.The governors reaffirmed their commitment to fiscal federalism and stressed the need for the southern states to pursue their inclusion in the Nigerian Constitution, through the ongoing constitutional amendment.

Governors from the southern region of Nigeria have declared their support for the collection of Value Added Tax by state governments, in place of the Federal Inland Revenue Service.Chairman of the Forum and Ondo State Governor, Oluwarotimi Akeredolu, made the position of the governors known in a communique issued at the end of the meeting.He says the meeting resolved to support the position that the collection of VAT falls within the powers of the states.The governors reaffirmed their commitment to fiscal federalism and stressed the need for the southern states to pursue their inclusion in the Nigerian Constitution, through the ongoing constitutional amendment.

Governors from the southern region of Nigeria have declared their support for the collection of Value Added Tax by state governments, in place of the Federal Inland Revenue Service.Chairman of the Forum and Ondo State Governor, Oluwarotimi Akeredolu, made the position of the governors known in a communique issued at the end of the meeting.He says the meeting resolved to support the position that the collection of VAT falls within the powers of the states.The governors reaffirmed their commitment to fiscal federalism and stressed the need for the southern states to pursue their inclusion in the Nigerian Constitution, through the ongoing constitutional amendment.

The United Nations says Nigeria is not the only country facing myriad human rights challenges.The UN Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator, Edward Kallon says like other countries, Nigeria faces myriad human rights challenges. Kallon says they aim to reach a common understanding between the Government, human rights partners, civil society, and the UN on human rights priorities in Nigeria.Kalli says Nigeria has ratified the nine core UN human rights treaties, including other regional instruments. The Nigerian Constitution has elaborate provisions on the protection of human rights.

The United Nations says Nigeria is not the only country facing myriad human rights challenges.The UN Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator, Edward Kallon says like other countries, Nigeria faces myriad human rights challenges. Kallon says they aim to reach a common understanding between the Government, human rights partners, civil society, and the UN on human rights priorities in Nigeria.Kalli says Nigeria has ratified the nine core UN human rights treaties, including other regional instruments. The Nigerian Constitution has elaborate provisions on the protection of human rights.

The United Nations says Nigeria is not the only country facing myriad human rights challenges.The UN Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator, Edward Kallon says like other countries, Nigeria faces myriad human rights challenges. Kallon says they aim to reach a common understanding between the Government, human rights partners, civil society, and the UN on human rights priorities in Nigeria.Kalli says Nigeria has ratified the nine core UN human rights treaties, including other regional instruments. The Nigerian Constitution has elaborate provisions on the protection of human rights.

The Senate has denied reports that the lawmakers have proposed the creation of 20 more states, saying the upper chamber was grossly misrepresented.Senate spokesman Ajibola Basiru in a statement says the report is a misunderstanding of the decision reached by the Senate Committee on the Review of the 1999 constitution.The statement says the report is a gross misrepresentation of the decision of the committee on the request for the creation of more states.He says Section 8 of the Nigerian Constitution clearly stipulates the procedures for the creation of additional states adding that the Senate Committee is not in a position to propose the creation of any state as reported.

The Federal Government has approved the extension of the deadline for the National Identification Number - SIM data verification to October 31.They said the decision to extend the deadline was made following a request by stakeholders to accommodate registration in hard-to-reach remote areas, foreigners and diplomatic missions, diaspora and address low enrolments in schools and hospitals, as evidenced by enrolment statistics.It also followed a review of the progress of the exercise which indicated significant progress hence the need to consolidate the gains of the enrolment and NIN-SIM verification process across the country.They added that there are over 5,500 enrolment systems within and outside the country and this would significantly ease the NIN enrolment process and subsequent linkage of NIN to SIM.Socio-Economic Rights Group Sues President Over Gag Order On Reporting Of Terrorist AttacksThe Socio-Economic Rights and AccountabilityProject and the Centre for Journalism Innovation and Development have filed a lawsuit against President Muhammadu Buhari and the Minister of Information and Culture, Mr Lai Mohammed, over the order to stop journalists and broadcast stations from reporting details of terrorist attacks and victims.They are also seeking an order to compel and direct the NBC and Mr Lai Muhammed to withdraw the directive asking journalists and broadcast stations to stop reporting details on terrorist attacks and victims, as the directive is unlawful and inconsistent with the Nigerian Constitution of 1999 and the country's international human rights obligations.Nigerians Spent N2.07tn on Petrol in 12 MonthsThe Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation has revealed that it sold a total of N2.106 trillion of refined products to Nigerians between February 2020 and February 2021, with petrol taking a huge chunk of N2.070 trillion of the entire sales.The corporation also disclosed that in terms of quantity, 17.215 billion litres of fuel, accounting for 99.37 of total refined products were imported during the period under review.The NNPC noted that N188.15 billion was made on the sale of white products in the month of February 2021, lower than N190.72 billion sales recorded in January 2021.The NNPC stated that 1.414 billion litres of white products were sold and distributed, compared with 1.436.40 billion litres in the month of January 2021.The national oil company says this comprised 1.414 billion litres of petrol and 0.17 billion litres of diesel, consumed by Nigerians during the period.Okonjo-Iweala Decries Low Rate of COVID-19 Vaccination in NigeriaDirector-General of the World Trade Organisation, Dr Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, has lamented the low rate of COVID-19 vaccination in Nigeria and Africa, in general. Okonjo-Iweala says to fill the wide immunisation gap, WTO was ramping up vaccines' production, with a target of 11 billion doses by the end of this year, way beyond the present output level of 3.8 billion.Okonjo-Iweala says the production of the vaccine volume had been increasing, with the figure in June growing by 1.1 billion, representing a 45 per cent increase from May production.She however says most doses end up in the developed countries and the vaccine inequity continues and vaccines producers need to change the story.Tunisian President Suspends ParliamentTunisian President Kais Saied announced the suspension of the country's parliament and the dismissal of Prime Minister Hichem Mechichi following a day of protests against the ruling party.He says the constitution does not allow for the dissolution of parliament, but it does allow for its work to be suspended citing Article 80 which permits such a measure in case of imminent danger.Saved says he would take over executive power with the help of a government headed by a new chief appointed by the president himself.He also said that the immunity would be lifted for parliamentary deputies.South Africa Eases Covid RestrictionsSouth Africa has eased some Covid restrictions after President Cyril Ramaphosa said the country had largely passed the peak of its third wave of the pandemic.A night-time curfew and mandatory face mask-wearing remain in force, but Mr Ramaphosa is lifting the weekday ban on alcohol sales and is allowing people to move between provinces.Schools will also be allowed to reopen on Monday.Mr Ramaphosa says overall infections were down 20% from the previous week, though the figures are still rising in three provinces.Ethiopian Region Calls For Citizen MobilizationThe president of Ethiopia's Amhara region has called on all residents holding arms to mobilise against rebels from neighbouring Tigray.He says from Monday all people of age who are armed either at a governmental or private level will be mobilised for a survival campaign.The call to arms from Mr Agegnehu follows a similar statement on Friday by the leader of Ethiopia's Afar region, leading to fears that the eight-month-long conflict in Tigray could spread.A spokesman for Tigrayan rebels has vowed they will liberate every square inch of Tigray, which includes disputed areas that have been occupied by Amhara forces since the beginning of the war.Tanzania Receives 1m Covid VaccinesTanzania has received more than one million doses of the Johnson and Johnson coronavirus vaccine.The single-dose vaccine will be offered free of charge in all government hospitals.The country will also offer the jab to those planning to travel abroad - at a cost.The semi-autonomous Tanzanian islands of Zanzibar began a vaccination campaign about two weeks ago using China's Sinovac vaccine.No data has been shared on how many people have so far been vaccinated there. It is also unclear how many doses the authorities received from the Chinese government.

The military is restating its commitment to the Nigerian Constitution with a promise that it will remain apolitical and loyal to the civil authority and the President who is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.The acting Director of Defence Information, Brigadier General Onyema Nwachukwu made the pledge on behalf of the military in a statement on Monday.The military pledged that it would continue to discharge its constitutional responsibilities professionally, especially in protecting the country’s democracy, defence of its territorial integrity, as well as protecting the lives and property of the citizens.It added that the current security challenges in the country were not insurmountable, saying the Armed Forces and other security agencies were working assiduously to ameliorate the problems.

The military is restating its commitment to the Nigerian Constitution with a promise that it will remain apolitical and loyal to the civil authority and the President who is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.The acting Director of Defence Information, Brigadier General Onyema Nwachukwu made the pledge on behalf of the military in a statement on Monday.The military pledged that it would continue to discharge its constitutional responsibilities professionally, especially in protecting the country’s democracy, defence of its territorial integrity, as well as protecting the lives and property of the citizens.It added that the current security challenges in the country were not insurmountable, saying the Armed Forces and other security agencies were working assiduously to ameliorate the problems.

The Socio-Economic Rights and Accountability Project has called for a slash in the pay of political office holders such as the President, Vice-President, governors and their deputies, as well as lawmakers.SERAP in a statement issued by its SERAP Deputy Director, Kolawole Oluwadare, asked the Revenue Mobilization Allocation and Fiscal Commission to urgently review upward the remuneration, allowances, and conditions of service for Nigerian judges, and to review downward the remuneration and allowances of high-ranking political office-holders in order to address the persistent poor treatment of judges and to improve access of victims of corruption to justice.SERAP also urged the commission to send its review and recommendations to the National Assembly for appropriate remedial and legislative action, as provided for by the Nigerian Constitution 1999.The letter followed the nationwide industrial action by the Judiciary Staff Union of Nigeria to press home their demand for financial autonomy for the judicial arm of government, and the federal government’s silence on the judiciary workers’ strike that has grounded courts across the country.

The Minister of Communication and Digital Economy, Dr Isa Pantami, says Nigerians who fail to enrol for the National Identity Number risk imprisonment.Pantami explained that the decision to imprison those without a NIN was in line with the Nigerian Constitution, saying no one should enjoy government services without the number.Pantami made the emphasis that while obtaining a Subscriber Identity Module card may be optional, NIN is mandatory, noting that a lot of transactions in the country should not be conducted without the NIN.He noted that rather than the population census which can be manipulated, NIN will determine the accurate number of Nigerians because of its uniqueness and tamper-proof.He stressed that the government would not renege on the ban on SIM registration for security reasons arising from a huge compromise of the process.

Lagos State House of Assembly, yesterday, passed a resolution asking President Muhammadu Buhari and the National Assembly to endorse a bill for the inclusion of state police in the Nigerian Constitution.The Speaker of the Lagos State House of Assembly, Mudashiru Obasa, said there was a need to have state police in the country. Unitedly, the House passed the resolution with no objection.He said, “This House has always been at the forefront of calls for state police right from the 4th Assembly. This House is always right on target and always at the truth.“We are not going to stop until we have a constitution that talks about federalism to have state police. We must latch on this opportunity. The community police initiated a few months ago is not good enough, we want the state police that have the wherewithal to ensure that lives and property are safe and it is my sincere pleasure to call again on the President and the National Assembly on the need for state police.”

Here is the second part of my episode with Chris Ogunmodede. We continued the discussion on Nigeria’s political economy. We touched on institutional memory in the legislature and why we need a stronger civil society. Chris is insightful as always.You can rate us here. If you want to support our efforts in bringing you the thoughts of brilliant thinkers through these conversations, you can be a patron here. TRANSCRIPTTL: This is Ideas Untrapped and my guest today is Chris Olaoluwa Ogunmodede. He's a foreign policy analyst, a writer, editor and political risk consultant. His work centres on political institutions and foreign policy of African countries, particularly in the West African region, and he has extensive experience working across Africa, Europe, and the United States. He's an editor at the Republic, a Pan-African global affairs publication. You're welcome, Chris. It's a pleasure to have you here. CO: It's a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on your podcast. I'm glad to be here. TL: One detour, quickly, that I want to take listening to your answer, is the role of ideas in all of this and messaging from the top or the centre, so to speak. President Buhari has a bit of a perceptive reputation, I would say, as inflexible. Inflexible, he is set in his ways, he has his idea. I mean, we just talked about the cabinet, I remember I think it was his first and probably the only media chat that he had where he said permanent secretaries are the ones running the government. CO: Yes. I remember.TL: We don't need ministers. And exchange rate was so and so in 1983, how come it is so and so in 2016. So what is the role of ideas in how the transmission mechanism of governance really really works? So, if the man at the centre, if the leader, if the visionary, so to speak, have some of these funny, archaic ideas about things, is there really any hope for governance? So that's one. Secondly, which is one other thing you touched on in your answer, you talked about how PDP was found, the experience with succession and governance. And I'm leaning a lot on Carl LeVan here. Talking about how the post-colonial governance, especially after the civil war, has always worked in Nigeria by different veto power structures, exacting influences, pushing each other. But in that same process, I see someone like president Buhari, even right from his days in the military and even afterwards, as a bit of an outsider to that process.So he does not come with all the governing credentials, so to speak or should I say experience. So how much do these two things - ideas and experience in actual governance and the influence with the governing structure behind power, how much do these two things influence the way the APC evolved as a ruling party?CO: Yeah, I think a lot. As you pointed out, this is a president who you could charitably call incurious about a lot of things, and he relies on a very small circle of advisers, the cabal as it were. You know, that's the sort of colloquial description for his advisors. Many of them share his views on economics, on security, on practically everything that's important. This is also not a...president Buhari is not particularly gregarious, he is not particularly outgoing, he's something of a loner, he's a quite austere person. You contrast him with former president Obasanjo, for example, who couldn't be any more different even though they were both military heads of state. President Obasanjo is something of an intellectual. He's written so many books. I mean he ran for UN Secretary-General at one point. He's someone who you will find on panels all over the [place], even to this day. Like, this is a person who has a worldview, he sees himself as an African intellectual statesman and has behaved that way. Not even just today, as far back as when we left the armed forces when he handed over in '79. This is someone who has engaged himself in African affairs, in particular. He's been a peacekeeping envoy to this person, to that person. You know, whether it's Charles Taylor, whether it's in Togo, this is someone who is often dispatching himself to be at the centre of [things], especially things that have to do with Africa. He's someone who relies on a number of young [people]. One thing people don't know and just in the interest of disclosure, he's someone I know somewhat well, you know. President Obasanjo is someone who relies on a lot of scholars, academics, thinktanks. You know, he has a presidential library now. He's long had a Foundation, you know, these are things he uses to project not just his influence, but his willingness to learn so much about the world. When he was president, he was the kind of person who if you went to see him about something about a policy issue and you felt it's something that was worthy of his attention and he got the sense that you knew so much about [it], he was ready to offer you a job right there, that he would say to you things like OK, why don't you come and take this position and that.President Buhari is not like that and this is where intellectual curiosity as a leader is consequential. But like I said, President Obasanjo had all of his flaws and you know, there isn't enough time to go through all of them, but he had that ability to one: spot ideas or at least listen to ideas if he'd never heard of them before. He was even willing to be pushed on his idea. You know, when you read The Accidental Public Servant by elRufai where he talks about his time working for OBJ, you get the sense that that's the kind of [relationship]. It was a somewhat combative relationship, but it was one of begrudging respect because he felt elRufai was someone worth listening to, he understood so much about governance, about public policy, public administration and all of that. So that's the kind of person president of Obasanjo was. Whereas with President Buhari, it's only his inner circle and well, everyone, get lost. That lack of curiosity shows. That's why their policy responses in the administration on every issue is quite predictable. You can spot from a mile away what the administration would do on any issue. It's either to band this thing or to regulate that thing. Or, you know, they're a hammer that sees nails everywhere, the administration. And that's because that's the tone that's set from the top. The ministers and other members of the cabinet don't have a close relationship with him, they don't have any real influence. They certainly don't have any power, and that's by design. These were people who in some ways were foisted upon him and he just had to accept them. You know, like you pointed out, he said something about how ministers don't really the government and Perm Secs are. He only picked ministers, frankly, because he had to. He was more than happy to, you know, roll with the people he was rolling with. So the Ministers he selected are essentially part of the spoil system to him. Now broadly, that's Democratic politics as a rule, but you know, like you pointed out that there's a constellation of forces as far as governance is concerned, but with him, none of that is there. And because like I mentioned, APC as a party consist of several different moving parts with very little in common, the internal mechanisms of the party are not that strong, and it became very evident with all of the parallel congresses and fighting factions. At one point, the party chairman was fighting with the governors and they eventually got him removed (I'm referring to Oshiomole). They got him removed. There is so much reliance on the personality of President Buhari. So when he set the tone, everyone simply just falls in line with it. Now, of course, that generally tends to happen in many democratic systems. In many democratic systems, especially ones with weak political parties, that's what tends to happen. Where the President or Prime Minister, depending on the system, becomes like a sort of patrimonial figure where what he says is essentially an edict. You know, I would say APC is a weak party by virtue of the fact that they have no real means of resolving internal disputes without making them turn into something else, and it had to require the intervention of Buhari to resolve the issue with Oshiomole and the NEC and the governors and all of this stuff. So, apart from the fact that many of the governors and other elite in APC already agree with him on several policy issues, those who don't [agree] have no incentive but to fall in line. Now, you contrast with PDP where especially under Yar'adua who was basically an old-style Marxist, for all intents and purposes, you know. The fact that he was that type of person succeeding a president who I would regard as a neoliberal president, Obasanjo, tells you the kind of diversity of thoughts inside PDP. People always say oh, there's no ideology in Nigerian politics. There is nothing that differentiates [the parties], that's actually not true. There are ideological differences. Clear ones, actually. PDP has something of a sort of free markets, at least it used to anyway, a free-market orientation towards, certainly, economic matters. Had the privatisations, the deregulations of the Obasanjo years, and then the Jonathan years. Whereas with APC, they are much more of a Social Democratic/Democratic Socialist Party. You know, at least the people who formed the core of APC when they did. The Bisi Akande and all these other people. These are old-style union, you know, student's union, teacher's union types, farmer and labour groups. Those are the elements that became, at least in Southwest APC those are the elements that became the elites in the party. And you know, many of them came from the ACN and before that AC, and before that Alliance for Democracy, and then before that, whether it was SDP or Action Group cause some of these guys are that old. Somebody like Bisi Akande has been in politics since the days of Action Group under Awolowo. That's the genesis of their political worldview, so there are clear differences between the parties. What I think people are referring to is the fact that parties are weak. So like I said, internal democracy is nonexistent, party discipline is nonexistent. So it means that the party is as strong as a couple of dominant figures who can come in and exert their will. For example, in a party primary, you can come in and essentially buy the nomination under some circumstances ignoring what the rest of the party might want. Governors are known to exert so much influence on parties, especially in the states. Because there is very little that binds the parties together, in political science they refer to it as party system institutionalization. That means the parties aren't really regarded as legitimate across society. They are not wedded to the society. Yes, people vote for them, they exist and they're registered and all but, for one thing, the low turn out in the election tells you that the overwhelming majority of voters do not regard them as legitimate. So at the end of the day, because they are the only ones who participate and can exert their will because internal party dynamics are so weak, it now makes it easy to move from party to party. One minute you're in PDP. One minute you're in APC. One minute you're in Labour Party. One minute you're in APGA. So people conflict the fact that the parties are so weak that people can come and go with the fact that there is no governing ideology. There are clear differences when it comes to ideology. It's just because the parties are so weak, any dominant figure can just come and impose his will on the party, and everybody goes [along]. For example, Wike is basically the leader of [the] opposition in PDP and it's something I talked about a few weeks ago on Twitter after the Edo election. Wike has basically been PDP's leader since 2015. Because the national party is so weak and redolent, at this point, Wike is the most dominant of all the PDP governors. He governs a wealthy state, at least relative to the rest of the country. He's basically the leader of the opposition in real terms. Yes, you know, they have a PDP chairman and all these other stuff. But, Wike is the most dominant PDP figure in Nigeria and that is because he has been able to exert himself on the party.Normally [a] political party should be expressions of several different things. A uniting ideology that brings different factions because, you know, there'll always be people with different views and things like that, while you want a broader governing philosophy. For example in the US, the democratic party are regarded as the centre-left, the republicans are regarded as right. In Nigeria, those labels don't quite work as well because, well, first of all, what is left in Nigeria and what is right? And like I said, the parties are so weak that anyone can be one thing today and the next thing he's another tomorrow. It's not that there is no prevailing ideology, it's just that the parties are largely the aggregation of one dominant figure's interest or several dominant figures' interest, so it's very easy to come in and stamp your authority and get your way. So all of this is why governance, as it were, under the Buhari administration has mostly been predictable, and one-way traffic. Back when Abba Kyari was still alive, people always used to say he was secretly the president, I don't think that was necessarily what was true. What was true was that President Buhari had a set of ideas and Abba Kyari was the enforcer, and that is literally the role of the Chief of Staff. In the US, that is literally what the chief of staff does. Chief of staff is basically the President's number one protector. That's all he is concerned with. There have been lots of books written about White House chief of staff and one thing you will come to understand about that role is that the person thinks from one point of view only: the president. He doesn't think about the Vice President. He doesn't even think about the cabinet, he doesn't even think about himself or, at least, shouldn't. You think about what president wants and you defending it to a T. That's basically what Abba Kyari is. Of course, because Abba Kyari and President Buhari were ideologically soulmates, all of their prescriptions matched and President Buhari trusted him, respected him so much and he was a very hard working man, so it was very easy for people to say, oh, Abba Kyari is the one pulling the strings. Now, he was a very powerful person, no question about that. I'm not trying to dispute that at all. What I'm saying is that it wasn't nearly as sinister as people thought. Here was a situation where he had been given a lot of free reign to govern by his principal and that's what it is. So that is what governance under Buhari had been like, at least, as far as [the] federal government. President set the tone at the top and Abba Kyari then, and now ambassador Gambari effects what the president wants and that's it. There's no sense of internal meeting. There really isn't one because there's no balance of power of that kind. In certain governments, you get those kinds of situations where one person feels like oh, this is my view, that person has his view. Obasanjo used to encourage that kind of interaction, even Jonathan too to a certain extent used to, but with President Buhari, if disagreements emerge they're largely spontaneous, largely because people will always have their own agendas, their own interests, but a lot of it is largely going on with the president's total oblivion towards them.TL: I might actually have to update my priors on ideology in the Nigerian political system because my partner always tells me PDP is capitalist and I remember my consternation on the show when Akin Oyebode actually said APC is centre-left. I was like, Woah! But interesting point of view raised there. Briefly, let's talk about president Obasanjo.A lot of people still consider him the best president we've ever had...CO: I would generally agree with that. You know, all things considered.TL: One thing and the people who know him and different accounts about his time in government will tell you that he's very hands-on, he knows what's going on, there is never really [any] confusion about who's in charge, even though he's open to ideas and dissent and gives the people that he trusts a lot of latitude to be creative with policy. But there's something important that I want to raise and that is the issue of power vacuum. I mean, you just talked about Kyari. There's this perception that in the current administration there's some kind of power vacuum. And that perception is fed by how much time it usually takes the presidency to react to some issues of national crisis. I remember when the Covid-19 outbreak first reached Nigeria, people both on social media and the traditional media were, for weeks, calling for the president to come out and speak. And we can say the same for a lot of other things, including EndSARS. There are people who still think today that the signal about the reforms, because now, one of the government's defence is like oh, we were responsive. You guys said you wanted this...to dissolve SARS blah blah blah... But some people are of the view and which I agree that if the dissolution of SARS had been a presidential order or pronouncement, then, it could have calmed a lot of nerves, especially among the protesters. So let's talk about the issue of power vacuum - is it real? Is it not? And how much did president Obasanjo's legacy matter here particularly in the area of succession? Because a lot of people still see the handing over to Yar'Adua, some say maybe rather sinisterly, that it was his last act of revenge for not getting a third term. But we know that president Yar'Adua, for all his good intentions and his good heart, was not really a man of good health.CO: Yes.TL: And we had this period where transition, even handling over, constitutionally, to the vice-president became problematic because of the cabal, so to speak. There was some sort of vacuum. So how much does president Obasanjo's legacy matter here in the presidential tradition that have, sort of, been in play since the end of his administration?CO: That's actually a very useful question because I believe that it's quite under-discussed, and here's why I said that. President Obasanjo is the first civilian democratic president for the first republic, right? He comes in with this wealth of experience - he's been a military head of state. Obviously, he's a career military officer. He was a commander in the civil war and all of this stuff. He was on the Supreme Military Council as number two to Muritala Muhammad and all this stuff. So, here's a person who comes into government and civilian democratic politics practically with a very good sense of what he wants to do.And, of course, he brings his own personal traits and all of these stuff into governance and politics. He's a very towering, some might say, overbearing figure and he exerted a lot of hard power. You know, Obasanjo, frankly, with an authoritarian. If we are going to be frank. And because, like I said, he's the first one of the fourth public. So he has framed for Nigerians what a president should be like. Because don't forget before him, the last president we had was in 1983. So many Nigerians before Obasanjo don't have any recollection of what a civilian president is like. So in real terms, Obasanjo is the first civilian president for millions of Nigerians ever. Ever. TL: True.CO: Because many of them weren't born. And like you pointed out, many people regard him as the best leader, broadly, postindependence that Nigeria has had. The things he did on the economy and all of this other stuff. Along that came with, frankly, a lot of political baggage. You know, we don't talk enough about how many of the problems that befell PDP were things that he put in place, were problems he started to create. Whether it was handpicking candidates for PDP, whether it's muscling out PDP chairmen who disagree with him, whether it's instigating issues with governors that eventually lead to their impeachment. You know, a lot of this aggrandising behaviour started with Obasanjo. So a lot of what we've come to understand as far as the mythology of the Nigerian president is of him. That colours everything we’ve now come to understand about the way a president should be like. So the president must always be seen. He must always speak. He must always this. He must always that. So that is why if you remember during the Jonathan years and people always said oh, he was weak, he was indecisive and people were running roughshod over him and this and that, that's because he chose to be hands-off. There's no right or wrong way to administer government. The devil is always in the details of the decisions you make or don't make. So in that sense people always looked at Jonathan through the prisms of Obasanjo and to a large extent, people continue to look at Buhari through the prisms of Obasanjo. Forgetting, one: times are different, times have changed. Buhari and Jonathan are different people. There's never been this sense of allowing the institution to grow. You know it's not the Nigerian Presidency, it's the Nigerian President if that makes sense. In the US they talk about the modern American Presidency. It's this grandiose king-like office. In fact, there's a book by a guy called Arthur Schlesinger called the Imperial Presidency talking about how the American Presidency is essentially a king, and how the president, in real terms, is beyond the authority of Congress and the constitution and all of this stuff. You know, if you think the American President is an imperial one, I would argue the same is true about the Nigerian president. Even more so because in the Nigerian Constitution the structure of the distribution of power favours the Nigerian president even more so than the contextual equivalent in the US where what has happened is that the American President has assumed a lot of powers for himself... Oh, well, yes, "him" because there's only been male presidents. The American President has assumed a lot of powers for himself and when and they have gone to the courts, the courts have sided with the executive branch. You know, the American Presidency, at least as far as the Constitution goes, is quite a weak one. The enumerated powers of the American president are quite specific, and they're quite minimal, but political developments over the last century, in particular, have granted the American president so many powers where at this point, especially on matters of national security and foreign policy, the president can frankly do whatever the hell he wants and everything else will be after the fact. I would say in Nigeria, the enumerated powers of the President are even much more pronounced and the political powers that the President has assumed more so. So that colours how people view the Nigerian presidency and then when you look at the fact that the National Assembly has so much turnover, I think the eighth National Assembly had a turnover rate of I believe, I may not be exact here, about 66 percent. That means 66 percent of the members of the eighth National Assembly did not come back. That's a terrible development if you care about the separation of powers. The institutional memory of the National Assembly is lost, basically. Not when you have two-thirds of the class gone, and then the president stays. But two-thirds, including by the way the senate president. Let's not forget, the senate president was among those who departed. That is a loss of not just institutional memory of governance, but also the understanding of inter-government relations. And then the fact that you have to bring up all these new people up to speed on how governance works and how to be a good legislator. One of the most important lessons I learned as a young student was during an internship on Capitol Hill. I spent some time in the constituency office of a US Senator and one of the most valuable lessons I learned was how much time US Senators put into learning the procedural rules of the Senate. And how much powers they have institutionally, collectively and individually. That's how much power does one senator have, whether you're in the majority or minority? But especially when you're in the majority where you can actually get things done. How much power does his caucus or her caucus? And then, what are the powers of the Senate? Some senators spend a whole year learning this stuff because it's so important. It literally affects everything they do from the passing of the budget, the reconciliation process, parliamentary rules as far as presiding in the Senate. Back then when they still used to have what they call earmarks, which are basically senators reserving certain pet projects for their constituency. There's a million and one thing Senators have to learn, basically, when they take office. So there are a hundred US senators. Imagine 66 of them are gone and a new set... now granted all hundred seats aren't up at the same time but imagine such a scenario where 66 go and another 66 have to come back. That gives the advantage to the executive branch. That's exactly what we have in Nigeria where two-thirds of every senate, every National Assembly class is gone and the new ones have to come and start learning how government works. Meanwhile, the president has been there the whole time. If you care about authoritarianism, that's something you should want to fix. A lot of political science literature talks about the fact that legislatures need a period of 20 years post-transition - that's this period when they are coming out of authoritarian rule, whether it's a military dictatorship or something like that. But you know, legislatures need about 20 years to become really strong and capable enough to enforce the principle of separation. It gets harder to do that when two-thirds of your class is gone every time. And these are the things that I think much of the commentariat don't discuss enough. Like you know, we talk so much about restructuring, things like that, I've always made a point that personally, I think the National Assembly needs more former governors are not fewer. And this is a very controversial point because we all talk about how governors turned the senate to a retirement home, blah blah, blah. But there is actually a good sense of how former governors, having done a lot of the hard work of negotiating, understanding how especially public finance works, how to allocate certain benefits towards your constituency, how parliamentary rule work, Governors tend to know these things very well. Governors tend to also understand the informal side of legislative politics. You know, agenda-setting and all of that. How to build alliances in the Senate, how to work across party lines, Governors tend to know how to do that stuff very well because they've done it when they were Governors. Whereas with people who aren't Governors, they haven't been executives, they haven't had to deal with budgets and things like that, it's quite a learning curve. And these are some of the reasons why the Nigerian Presidency remains as outsized relative to the National Assembly, even though it's not supposed to be that way. You know, the National Assembly, one of its powers is oversight over the executive branch, over the presidency. But in real terms, especially in this current dispensation, that's why people talk about it as a rubber stamp, because in real terms the political power is an unequal one. All of the power has been situated in Aso Villa and the National Assembly simply just rubber stamps. They go with the flow of the Villa. It's not supposed to be that way. And all of these developments largely stem from the Obasanjo years where Obasanjo was meddling constantly in the National Assembly's business. If you remember, there were five different Senate Presidents when Obasanjo was president. Five.TL: Yeah. CO: I mean I remember...EnweremTL: 2 or 3 speakers.CO: Exactly, exactly. Okadigbo, Wabara...TL: Ken Nnamani.CO: Ken Nnamani, that's it. So, you know, those years were very tumultuous and those were very crucial years. Because like I said, that's the first democratic dispensation of Fourth Republic. So the groundwork that was laid back then is one that continues to still affect the Nigerian political dispensation, obviously, over time there was a bit more stability. David Mark was Senate president for eight years and all of that stuff. Some stability came over time, yes, but it didn't change the fact that...and this is how institutions work, going back to what we discussed, you know it's not a straight line. The signs of decline of institutional quality are often very apparent long time ago but you know, sometimes they move forward, they receded again, they move forward and they recede even further, you know, life doesn't move in a straight line. And that's essentially the point we have gotten to right now where, because of a number of and, these are mostly political development. They are not strictly constitutional ones. They're largely structural and political... Because of the things Obasanjo did, so much has come to be normalized. Now if you remember when the National Assembly had all those fights about who would be principal officers during that interregnum where APC won the election, but we're waiting to be sworn in? If you remember President Buhari said something about oh, he didn't want to get involved in their matter and he wanted them to sort this out themselves and many, at least, much of the commenting class found that to be strange, that's an example of what I'm referring to. Because we were so used to, in the Obasanjo years, him meddling in the National Assembly's business, the idea that a president would not want to get involved in the selection of the National Assembly's business, seems so strange. So these are some of the changes over time that if people, especially in civil society say they want to see as far as good governance, better governance, these are some of the issues we need to address. It can't always be about the presidency, the presidency, the presidency. To me, restructuring has got to be about all of these ideas. What kinds of powers, authority do you want the National Assembly to have? What kind of authority do you want state governors to have? What should the relationship between state governor's and the House of Assembly be? Do you want them to continue to be appendages of the governor? Or do you actually want them to be functional? These are the kind of iterative conversations that we don't have enough of and if you want a proper restructuring, whatever restructuring means to you as a Nigerian, these are some of the things you need to consider. TL: Those are very interesting thoughts, Chris. My final question, so to speak, on Nigeria, our beloved country, is that here we are. A lot of young people, they came out about an issue they are passionate about, they largely conducted themselves peacefully, they spoke their hearts, they expected their government to hear them and they are not asking for too much. But here we are. It has ended exactly the way Nigeria handles things. Lots of violence. Lots of denial. No one is really taking responsibility or leadership.CO: YesTL: What is the way forward? A lot of people are talking about elections. Yeah, we just have to vote these people out, is it really as simple as electing the right people? Is it restructuring? What exactly does that mean? You know a lot of the conversations we have about restructuring is about constitutional reforms, rewriting the constitution and big conferences and some of this processes that makes consensus very, very difficult to get to, you know? Are there quick gains right now that you think can be delivered to Nigerians? I mean, there's a lot to suggest that a lot of progress can be made even in the immediate. The judicial panel in Lagos is a good example. Today, I was reading the news that they made an unannounced visit to the military hospital to examine bodies, they had pathologists trying to test the system and hold it accountable within the powers that you have as a state government. Those are examples of quick gains, so why are we not doing these things? Why are we not testing the system and examine the fault lines, so to speak? Also, there's the issue of apathy. A lot of people say parties win elections in Nigeria by largely relying on their political base. You have state elections where you barely get 200 thousand total votes. So a lot of people don't vote, mostly young people. So is voter apathy part of the problem? And if they come out and vote for their preferred candidate, how are they sure that their preferred candidates are going to be on the ballot to begin with? You know, so many other issues. The issue of money in politics is also an example. So many research as pointed you need a billion naira to become a senator in Nigeria, 3 billion to become a governor and you have young people who want to go into politics and try to change the system, are they not disempowered by default with the way we have designed the system? So, so many questions, but what is the way forward in the long term, in the medium term and the short term?CO: Those are very important question because right now, at least as of this moment, the large scale demonstrations have practically ended, at least in Nigeria, you know, there's still lots of marches abroad and things like that, but in Nigeria, at least in the big cities anyway, the large scale marching to this place and that place is over. But there is a bit of uncertainty about what's next. Now, as you mentioned, there's been a lot of oh, 2023 and PVC, youth party...I did a bit of a thread last week talking exactly about this that, first of all, we have agreed that EndSARS, one of the subtexts of it is that the status quo is not working, how we're going to have to reconfigure the way we go about civic engagement, right? OK, so when we look at the last inflexion point in Nigerian politics, I would say it was the end of the military regime when Abacha died and the transition. What was the, at least in my view anyway, what was the mistake that was made? They were several but one of the key ones was that many of the activists, you know, whether they were NADECO, campaign for democracy or whatever else, everybody ran to politics. Not literally everybody, but much of the muscle behind all of those campaigns, whether it was Bola Tinubu, Bisi Akande, everybody ran to electoral politics, let me be specific. They ran into electoral politics. That's not a problem in and of itself, but in building institutions, you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Imagine a scenario where people like Gani Fawehinmi, for example, built up legal aid organizations, built up the judiciary, public defenders, their mandates and prestige was strengthened. Civil society organizations across a variety of policy issues were built up. Professional associations were built up. Religious organizations took on more of a civically responsible role as opposed to what they're doing right now, which in my view is not any of that. So the point I'm making is that imagine if there were a much larger constellation of forces, of social forces in the political space, as opposed to political parties and electoral politics alone? what would likely have happened is that the political class would have been forced to compete better.Simply because, for example, you come up with one policy idea or the National Assembly takes one bill up for consideration, there's civil society push especially if it's a really unpopular one. There is civil society pushback, you know, professional organizations like the NBA and all of that stuff. Writers groups, creative groups, trade unions and the likes, everybody came up in arms, expressing their opposition, their collective civic opposition to certain things. That would have spelled, for one thing, the ability of countervailing forces in the political system to make their own voices heard. But because all of the muscle from the democracy campaigns, everybody ran to politics. Some people didn't. People like Alao Aka, Bashorun and the likes, they didn't go into politics. But a large number of the activists from the 1990s they went to politics, including, of course, Gani himself.So that made electoral politics the, you know, crown jewel of civic participation. So when I start to see all this stuff about PVC and [2023], it just seems to me like a repetition of all of that. Like, I've seen so much oh, FemCo should be turned to a structure. FemCo should be turned to a party. Oh, FK should run for office and I'm thinking to myself, is that the only way that any of these people or these organisations have to make [a] change in Nigeria? If you are telling me that's the only way, then we're in bigger trouble than I thought. Because as far as I know, there are people who are still locked up in prisons across the country with no one to get them out. There are schools that are still crumbling. You know, there are a variety of policy issues across the board that we could address now. Those problems will not wait for 2023.TL: Sorry to interrupt you, Chris. This is such an important but underrated point you're making. I mean, it's such an important one I can't possibly amplify enough. During this whole protest and all, I pointed out to a couple of friends about the decline of civil society. I don't know how that came about, but you talking about everybody going to electoral politics now seems to be connecting the dots. Look at SARS, for example, and this menace. Someone Like Chief Gani, God rest his soul, by now would have buried SARS in an avalanche of lawsuits.CO: A long time ago. A long time ago. Are you telling me people like Gani, Alao Aka, Bashorun who took on the armed forces could not deal with a problem like SARS if given the institutional environment to work with? Please. TL: Exactly, I mean, one of the empowering precedences, even for state judicial panels today, and I've seen a couple of lawyers cite this to me on social media is Fawehinmi Vs Babangida in 2003. Someone did that. Someone took the initiative to do that. So like you, I'm also quite worried about this narrative of we all have to go into politics as if there are no other instrumentalities of the society...CO: It honestly confuses me when I hear it. Everyone has been saying, oh, Feminist Coalition should run for...and when I say this, it's an agnostic position I'm taking that, they may be good political leaders, they may not, I don't know but what I am pushing back against is the inherency of the fact that because they have demonstrated such brilliance in political organizing in one area of civil society, that it's necessarily going to translate to political office, I don't think that's necessarily true. And it's worth interrogating because when you say you want to vote for somebody, you should ask yourself why is it that you want that person as opposed to however number of other candidates. There ought to be something you're voting for. How do you know that because somebody was a good organizer in a social movement or a protest movement, they would necessarily make a good policymaker or a political leader? You ought to ask yourself those questions and when you don't, you are simply repeating the mistakes we made in 1998/99. Where, frankly, a lot of people who shouldn't have been in politics got into politics and, well, you know, here we are.TL: That's a brilliant point. Needs to be said over and over and over again. I mean, I even tell people that ordinary protest they are bringing thugs...CO: Exactly. [Laughs]TL: Imagine what they would do to win an election? You know? So, I know I sort of derailed your answer, but, I mean...CO: No, not at all. I think, no, it's very much part of the point in that we cannot simply think voting the "right people", I think it's very connected. First of all, what is the right people? You've got to ask that foundational question. Who are the right people? What ideas are you looking for? And even if you get the right people, the educated class in Nigeria likes to bang on about institution and I've explained, sort of, why I find that to be counterproductive. You know, you talk about institutions well, what kind of institutions are you going to build if you think all it takes is that you get in the right people? Well, people change. You know, I did a tweet two days ago talking about how Alpha Condé, the Guinean president. So here's this guy who spent four decades in opposition, right? He gets sentenced to death in absentia by Sékou Touré. He's actually jailed by Lansana Conté, the successor of Sékou Touré. So he's basically suffered a whole lot as an activist. Here's this guy now as president, slaughtering people just because he wants the third time. TL: We can say the same of Ouattara.CO: Exactly. Exactly. This is literally Africa story all over, across the board of people who spend years in opposition, fighting this person, that person, docking bullets, running abroad, you know, living in exile, only for them to get into power and do at the very least exact same thing. If not worse. So to me, all these ah, yes, get the right people...there is no way, if you want the right people, they've got to be backed up by the right set of institutions, the right norms and countervailing forces that ... you see, politics fundamentally is about creating rival power structures. That's why, for example, the principle of separation of powers exists, so that one arm of the government doesn't become too powerful.Even in the electoral realm, it ought to exist. That's why, for example, there are wings in a party, right? So in one party, there might be left-wing, there might be [a] moderate wing, there might be right-wing. You know, you need countervailing forces to keep each other honest. To constantly make you compete, not to get drunk on power. But when you say, oh, get in the right people, but you don't create that environment, they are not going to be the "right people". It's just not going to happen because power is a corrupting influence. If you put in the "right people", first of all, what do you know they're going to do in office? Who are they going to rely on as advisers? What do they intend to achieve in 100 days? Six months? A year, and then four years? What is it that they consider to be their priorities? What do they understand governance to be? You know these are the sets of questions that when you start to ask will give you a sense of the kind of environment you want to design for this so-called "right people" to go in there. Because when you start asking certain questions you recognize they cannot do it alone. They cannot read alone because governance is a collective effort.But when you simply leave it at oh, the right people, you know, because, ah, during EndSARS, he was an organiser or she was an organiser, yes, and that...that doesn't necessarily mean they know anything about governance. It doesn't. And I feel it's still early days, we're still mostly reeling from that horrible killings. You know, this stuff is iterative and old habits die hard, right? So I get that for the most part, people are going to fall back on what they know. But at the same time, we should be willing to challenge even the things we consider to be settled knowledge. And one of those things that I really think we have to challenge is this idea that electoral politics and running for office is the only way to make [a] change. When you get to a situation where even people, celebrities, now think the next game in town is to run for office, I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing, but ultimately it's for you as the voter to determine if you want such people representing you. Because you liked an album they put out 10 years ago does not mean you want them representing you in the State House of Assembly or the National Assembly, or someplace like that. And I feel like too much...TL: Just look at Desmond Elliot.LaughsCO: Exactly. I mean, yesterday, Twitter Nigeria gave this guy hell. They give him hell, and deservedly so. I mean, look at how much of a fool of himself he made. And, unfortunately, he's already in there and he's going to be there until 2023. So not unless you can recall him or something, you are going to have to live with, at least his constituents anyway will have to live with the fact that this guy doesn't know what he's doing. And those are the kinds of lessons we ought to start learning now. Start to tackle people in office now. Start to think about who you want representing you now. Start to familiarise with your local representatives now. Start to sensitise your neighbours, your association members, your church or mosque members now. There are a million and one things you can do now that don't have to wait till 2023. The problems that exist today will not wait for 2023, so why should you? TL: Those are powerful, powerful insights, Chris. But finally, before I let you go, regarding Nigeria, and this is sort of a tradition on the show, what is the one idea that you would like to spread? That you'll like to see people adopt? An idea that you'll like to see rise in status, so to speak?CO: It's very simple. We've got to develop a culture of critique. I think what we need in Nigeria is foundational ideas and notions that are at the heart of everything we do, everything we believe, and everything we desire as Nigerians because they will inevitably seep into politics and that's a culture of critique. One of the good things I've taken away from this EndSARS protest is that the young people have zero respect for any appeals to authority. They don't care if you went to Harvard, you're a perm sec or you're a general, they don't even care if you are the president, as a matter of fact. You have to make sense. And for me, that's what I find so instructive about that phrase "sorosoke". It's not just a little phrase saying "speak up", they're also telling you to make sense. It's not just about speaking up, you have to make sense. What you are saying must tally with what the average person understands intuitively. So you know, I say this because for so much of our past, especially older generations like ours, and we have simply given to authority blindly. Whatever they say, shut up, shut up and you sit down. Especially for we Yoruba people, there's a saying in Yoruba "won ki n sope agblagba n paro" you don't say an elder is lying. We've got to change things like that, I'm sorry.Those kinds of beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with a knowledge-seeking society. This idea that someone's ideas are untouchable because of their status or their age, we've got to get rid of things like that, you know. And this extends across society. We've got to be able to critique, and I said this because so you've seen all these videos of these Lagos State House of Assembly members saying, oh, they're on drugs, blah blah blah. Well, one of the reasons every one of them is reacting this way is they're simply not used to being challenged. It's as simple as that. They are not used to so-called children on Twitter calling them out, saying things about them. And don't forget that what is on Twitter is no longer even within the domain of Nigeria alone. This is stuff all over the world. So it's being fed back to them, and they can't control it. That is why everyone is up in arms and saying oh, all these social media people are doing this and that. Because these people cannot deal with the fact that people they don't even regard as anything useful are pushing back at them, challenging them.They do not see people on Twitter as a constituency of voters. They see them as children. These kinds of ideas have got to go. It does not matter whether you are the president or whether you are a pauper, you should be able to have your ideas challenged. You know, I didn't go to University in Nigeria, in fact, I didn't go beyond JSS 3, so, one thing I've heard from so many people is how in Nigerian universities you can't challenge your lecturer, you can't say this and that. That's absolute nonsense. Why can't you challenge your lecturer? Why can't you critique the ideas of somebody who claims to be teaching? That's the entire essence of pedagogy, of classroom education. That you bring up ideas, of course with reason, not every single idea deserves to be debated in my view, but for the most part, most topics within a scholastic framework can be debated. So this idea that oh, if your lecturer says something, or that if you don't answer a test question the way your lecturer wants it to be answered they mark you down. These are things I've heard so many times and I have no reason to doubt. I'm sure they're true. These things sound absolutely insane to me, and it stems from this culture of suppressing the ingenuity of young people. You know, people are not allowed to challenge ideas. You say something, then, shut up! What do you know? Do you know who you're talking to? He's is the professor. He's a minister. Who cares? Who cares? Like, we have got to be able to critique ideas and a lot of our political cultures, a lot of our social interactions, a lot of our economic interactions stem from the fact that whenever there is perceived to be a power imbalance, the person on the lower totem of the power pole has got to remain there and shut up. That's not how societies progress. Ideas have got to be challenged. They've got to be critiqued and they've got to be revised sometimes. And it doesn't matter who is saying what. You know it's not always black and white to be sure. It's not always a case of right versus wrong, but that's all the more reason why ideas contested. We do not contest ideas in Nigeria collectively, we don't. Like, Daddy G.O said, the governor said, Prof. said. Who cares? You've got to be able to challenge ideas. Yeah, so if I had one thing to pick, it would be that. We need to develop a culture of critique of everybody around us, including ourselves. Even you, you should be open to critique and others should be open to critique from you. Yeah. TL: Thank you so much, Chris Ogunmodede, it's been fantastic talking to you. CO: Likewise, it's been absolutely a pleasure. Thank you so much for hosting me. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.ideasuntrapped.com/subscribe

I have long admired the thoughts of foreign policy analyst Chris Ogunmodede through his Twitter feed, and it was a pleasure having this conversation with him. Our jump-off point was the tragic fallout from the EndSars protests. Chris’ knowledge and grasp of the core issues ensured he had deep insights on all my questions. (P.S he had some fun bashing economists).You can rate us here. If you want to support our efforts in bringing you the thoughts of brilliant thinkers through these conversations, you can be a patron here.TranscriptTL: This Ideas Untrapped and my guest today is Chris Olaoluwa Ogunmodede. He is a foreign policy analyst, a writer, editor and political risk consultant. His work centers on political institutions and foreign policy of African countries, particularly the West African region, and he has extensive experience working across Africa, Europe, and the United States. He's an editor at the Republic, a Pan-African global affairs publication. You're welcome, Chris, it's a pleasure to have you here. CO: It's a pleasure, thanks so much for having me on your podcast. I'm glad to be here.TL: We cannot really avoid the events of the last couple of weeks with the EndSARS protest and some of the tragic turn that things have taken since that very momentous period in the history of the country, so I think where I would like to start interrogating the issues is about the Nigerian security force, generally, not just the police. Because we know and as things turned out with the confrontation of the army with the protesters that the issue of abuse, extrajudicial killing and basically the overuse and exercise of power is symptomatic of our security force. So I want to know, what do you think are the underlying issues that makes this such a systemic problem and that makes it so very difficult to solve? So there are two views I've encountered in talking about this. One is about colonialism, so I want to ask you - how much influence do you think the colonial establishment and governance has on our institutions? Is it still a relevant factor? Should we still keep using that framework and analysis in looking at our institutions today?CO: That's a very good question and, you know, that's a very relevant question. I would say that the legacy of Nigeria's security forces are bound up in the colonial experience in the sense that the security forces, whether it's the police [or] the armed forces were created to repress local populations, to put down resistance movements, whether they were anti-tax ones, whether they were ones pushing for women's rights, you know, native rule, things like that. That is the contextual emergence from which modern Nigerian policing and the armed forces broadly, as you pointed out this is a problem that straddles across the security services, not just the police. And that's where [the] police, the army and other security elements of Nigerian society have emerged from: the suppression of popular expression of dissent. Essentially what you had was the colonial authorities, when they departed, post independence, they were essentially replaced by a new class of elites who frankly were happy to pick up the baton from the colonial authorities because they too had a stake in continuing this repressive practices and you can still see many of these elements around Nigerian society. For example, loitering as a crime in Nigeria is something that came from the colonial experience where if you were seen to be in a neighborhood you weren't supposed to be in, you would be arrested or taken away. That's still happening in many parts of Lagos and other cities in Nigeria. If you look like you don't belong in a neighborhood, you will attract the attention of the police. It's like when you listen to some stories about SARS for example, they look at you as a young person driving a nice car, you look a certain way, in a certain neighborhood. Again, all of this is part of a legacy of oppression that has been passed down from that colonial heritage. Now, this is not to say that the current elites, "post colonial elites" don't have any agency their own, but institutional change is harder than it sounds. You know, it's hard to get rid of bad habits. Old habits die hard. And once there hasn't been a social contract between constituent and authority in the sense that as soon as Nigeria got it's independence, it became a republic [in] 1963 and then the military took over in '66 and essentially we have been living through a militarised society, practically speaking since 1966. Yes, there was the transition to the second republic and that collapsed, and you had the third republic and that collapsed. Now we have the fourth republic. But fundamentally Nigeria's context has been one, at least post-1966, has been one of that same structure of violence and abuse. Unless you have a proper social contract between the citizen and the state regarding what kind of policing do they want? What kind of law enforcement do they want? What kind of national security policies do they want? And these things have to be reflected, not just in the Constitution, but in the way individuals relate with themselves in their neighborhoods, with the way the political class relates with voters. As long as that doesn't exist, that colonial legacy of policing will continue to manifest itself regardless of the fact that we are continuing, of course, to go farther and farther of colonial experience, but those underpinnings of the colonial state haven't been removed and the only way to remove them is by underwriting a social contract between constituent and authority.TL: It's interesting you talked about social contract because it's something I've also been thinking about in relation to a lot of these issues. I know you hinted at that, but is that really part of the problem that we are seeing here in terms of the relation between the citizens and the security forces? For example, the policeman's job leans more towards the protection of the regime or the people in power, as opposed to the protection and security of the public. And this relationship exist despite what the Constitution says, despite what rights we think we have and things like that, such that the police are basically an instrument of power or the expression thereof. So how does social contract become part of the social cognition of a population?CO: That's a very excellent question and frankly it's not one that there are obvious answers for, but I will certainly try to give my own take. First of all, when you look at the way a Constitution is written, there are many ways to do this - you could have a constitutional conference, you could have a constitutional convention, you could have a constituent assembly, so many countries have various iterations of the process by which they arrive at what they would regard as a Constitution that governs the social, legal and political interaction between the citizen and state. In Nigeria's case, to the extent that we have ever done that, it hasn't been very well considerate of all of the factors of society. In the sense that, Nigeria's Constitution whether it's 1979, whether it's 1999 Constitution, first of all, has often been written in secret. Not secret in the sense of being shot somewhere, but the consultation between these various elements of society has not been there. You know, you think of the fact that the '99 Constitution itself was, in large part, based on the conclusions of the Abacha constitutional conference understudied in '94 and they finished it in '95 where Abacha essentially handpicked a bunch of people who he wanted to draw a Constitution that was favourable to the armed forces. So this is the kind of thing I'm referring to. If that is the way you arrive at a Constitution, then it stands to reason that the old order, the order that protects the status quo, is what you're going to get. Now, on the flip side, you look at Chile. They recently had a vote to overturn the Pinochet Constitution - Augusto Pinochet was the military dictator in Chile. This was a process that the Chilean left in particular who opposed Pinochet, it's something they've been fighting on for decades. There have lots of debate as to whether they were going to having consultative assembly and things of that nature, a constitutional conference. In any case, because the recognition was that that Constitution was not written with the will and consent of the Chilean people, as they wanted a constitution to be written. You cannot have such a Constitution continue to govern a democracy. So Chile transitioned to a democracy in 19...there was a plebiscite in '88 and the president took office in 1990, then Pinochet stepped aside. But the Pinochet Constitution remained there. So there was the recognition for that democratic transition to come full circle, you have to get rid of that Constitution because that Constitution protects so much of the political order Pinochet has created that even though Chile has been a democracy for 30 years now, it's still very much an authoritarian construct. So bringing it back to Nigeria, that's precisely what I'm getting at, that until you have an understanding of a Constitution as Nigerians collectively want it, if it's a constitution that was written or reflects a previous era where there wasn't a broad-based consultation of people, the kind of social contract that you want to write to reflect in that Constitution is not going to be there. So if you, for example, want police reform and what that would look like in the Nigerian Constitution where some of the things you favour, including state police, boards of arbitration, an independent investigative panel to look at SARS and things like that, then if you want those things to reflect in the Nigerian Constitution, you have got to consult with all the elements of society to see what their views are about that. Has happens at the moment, the Nigerian Constitution creates a federalized police. So those reforms that you might want, at least if you favour that kind of reform where you have a more decentralized police force, you're simply not going to get it. And you are not going to get at the kind of social contract between citizen and state where the police force is accountable to your governor, in your state, as opposed to your president in Abuja. I mean, imagine if you live in Cross River and you are the victim of SARS brutality. OK, yes, now there's the state panels and all of that. But until those state panel, what was your way of getting accountability? You had to go all the way to the Nigerian police force. Of course, this was when FSARS was still the structure, later on they brought them to the police command, but in reality, because the Nigerian police force is a federalized structure, you have to go all the way to Abuja to get any sort of restitution for yourself. So if you want a social contract reflecting local accountability in policing, you have got to consult with other elements of society who share those views with you and this is where a responsible, robust civil society could come in. In a society like Chile, the ability to get rid of that Constitution, the Pinochet Constitution, was because several elements of civil society were able to rally themselves together and to create enough of the critical mass to put pressure on the political system to make that a salient issue. Thus far in Nigeria, we've been unable to do that. There are lots of organizations out there doing lots of great work on police reform, you know, CLEEN foundation and likes, but there have got to be much more voices in civil society trying to create that kind of momentum if they indeed favour a state/localized approach towards policing. They've got to be able to create that critical mass enough to get the National Assembly to take a look at that issue and make the necessary constitutional amendments that would make it happen. So it's all about what the society itself wants to do to make it's elites conform to the desires of it. Elites are naturally going to protect the status quo, it's up to you as civil society to organize yourselves to get that kind of social contract that you want.TL: Another theory I would like to get your push back - if you have any - on is that our institutions basically reflect our level of development and that these things usually improve the more developed, the more rich a society becomes. How credible is that view? Because if you look at it from a state capacity angle, it's nice to have all these things, but we can also argue that there is some form of, I mean discounting motives, now, there is some level of incompetence in the way we do reform in Nigeria. You get a sense, a very deep sense that some of the necessary skills whether people or technical skills that are actually needed to be marshalled to solve some of these problems are critically lacking, especially in our bureaucracies. So do the problems that we have now just simply reflect our level of development, the level of education and wealth and human capital in an economy, generally? CO: Right off the bat I will say that I'm much less a fan off the new institutional economics school of thought. Back when I was in undergrad I really used like, well, I still very much appreciate the arguments of Douglas North, Wallace and people like that, but overtime it's become very clear to me that one, as I mentioned earlier, institutional change is harder than it sounds. Two, institutions in and of themselves are not a panacea for anything in the sense that institutions are created and upheld by people. Something I've been talking about a lot over the last couple years of the Trump administration is the fact that, so many people, I remember having so many arguments with so many of my friends, colleagues, old classmates about if Trump were to win, what's gonna happen blah blah blah...and so many people will say oh, America's institutions are so great, they're so this, so that. Now, I tend to look at institutional quality a little different. They don't collapse overnight. There is usually a point where there's an indication something isn't quite working as it ought to, or maybe it used to. There's a moment of a stress test. We've seen Trump got impeached, he didn't get convicted, but there's been so many things he has done that have run afoul of, frankly, the law or norms or traditions, and it seems like there's been no one able to stop him. And, usually, my response to people who make these pronouncements is that well, institutions are not automatic, they rely on people to want to defend them. To want to uphold them. So in Nigeria's case, the institutions Nigeria has reflect, one: the time they were created. They reflect the purpose they were created for, and they reflect the fact that institutional change is going to have to come when the incentive structure change.When people hear institution they actually think of organizations. The way Douglas North talked about...and Douglas North was an institutional economists. When he talked about institutions he was referring to the rules of the game, you know, whether they be formal rule or informal rule, norms and things like that. So what most People understand to be institutions are actually organizations. So, like, people would say oh, institutions like the CBN, the Nigerian army... those are organizations. The institutions are the rules that bring them in existence in the first place. So I would say [the] separation of powers, for example, is an institutional norm, and then the reflection of those norms are the fact that we have [the] Villa, we have the National Assembly, we have the supreme court. In that sense, when you look at Nigeria's institutions, they can only perform what they were created to do. When you look at Nigeria security forces, to go back to our previous conversation, because they were created to repress and because the institutional arrangements around security, law enforcement, policing, civil defence and things like that haven't been underwritten by a broad-based social contract like we refer to, they will only do what they were created to do, which is kill a lot of people. Until a social contract is reflected in the institutional change process, the institutions will do what they were created to do. They're not static in the sense that because they were created to do one thing at a certain time, they will always do that. However, it does recognize that, if there are no updates made to the system around them...the system governing those institutions, they will simply reflect the times they were created. So in that sense, institution can be static. And like I said, because [in the] Nigerian society, by and large, the institutions that make up government, for example, are ones that are largely unaccountable to a broad public, are ones that regard distance between citizens and the government, that's simply what they will always do. So in that sense, Nigeria's economic institution... we've talked about political and security, let's talk about Nigeria's economic institutions. You can't ignore the fact that the government is the largest employer, for example, of labour in Nigeria. And the fact that registering a company, for example, is incredibly bureaucratic. That is because, by and large, a society where the average Nigerian did not have to depend on either the government or some other pillar of society like the church is one where people are going to be rebellious.If people have what Amartya Sen called capability to do the things they want, how they want, when they want, then dissent becomes easier. And in Nigeria, the institutions Nigeria has do not tolerate dissent. So if the government can control your economic well-being, can control the way you try to pursue your livelihood, it believes you are more likely to be responsive. So that's why you want to go register a company, they have to make it difficult for you because the people in the bureaucracy, you know, the civil servants, or whomever feel like it is their role and responsibility as economic agents really and truly to be able to control what you do. They feel it's their role, they feel it's their entitlement and you've got to pay due deference to that. Otherwise, you won't be able to pursue your own livelihood. That's the reason why, for example, the ease of [doing] business is very difficult because once everything is hunky dory, you can setup your own thing, you can pursue whatever economic activities you want, you don't need to always defer to the government, and because [the] Nigerian government is so paternalistic in its outlook, it has no other alternative but to essentially make your life a living hell. So in that sense, Nigeria's institutions can only reflect the time and purpose for which they were created. TL: That's an interesting thought. It's also interesting that you referenced Douglas North because I've been wanting to talk to you about Why Nations Fail by Daron Acemoglu and John Robinson. So how do their framework which is that institutions are either inclusive, that is, they value freedom and allow for innovation, or extractive where they're corrupt and sometimes they frown on dissent like you are also describing - how do their framework differ from what you've been describing so far - which is that institutions functions according to the purpose for which they were designed? I know you hate that book so much, where did it fail and what's missing?CO: So I think one of my major gripes with the book is the lack of specificity as to what inclusive and extractive means. You know, 'cause they used those two terms very loosely. For example, when you say "oh, inclusive institutions!" It's impossible for anyone to disagree with that because there's absolutely nothing incontrovertible about that. But then, when you get down to the nitty gritty of what inclusive and extracted means... for example, they portrayed China as one of the more extractive societies. OK, now fine, that's a perfectly legitimate argument to me. But it seems like China has been setup to essentially be a contrast to the US in terms of what successful institutions look like. You know,  America's Constitution, separation of powers... It makes a lot of casual arguments about how American institutions emerged.They talk about things like land rights and so many English market traditions and things like that. But for one thing, it ignores the role of slavery and things of that nature. So at one point they talk about how growth under extractive political institutions, as in China, will not bring sustained growth and is likely to run out of steam. It ignores that economic growth and development is a process and they don't say in specificity when that's going to happen. Because, you know, when you look at the US, America's economic growth was quite helter-skelter. America didn't become a developed as we would understand... and, you know, this goes into so many different ways of understanding what developed and all of that [means]. That's a separate conversation.But to understand America's economic growth as a developed economy, that didn't happen until roughly 1900 to be quite frank. You know, the late 19th century is when America started to really emerge as a developed economy, are we going to say then that everything that happened up until that point meant that America was an extractive economy? I mean, you can make that argument, but you would also be ignoring a number of factors that led up to that point. For example, the civil war, the nullification crisis, there are so many things that get in the way of making these kinds of causal arguments...you know, the Louisiana purchase, and this is a problem with economists generally. They tend to use a lot of bad history in making rather causal... this is something professional historians tend to say a lot that economists because they have where they're going to, they will go there A to B and they won't look anywhere else.That's a lot of what Acemoglu and Robinson have done. They have ignored a lot of arguments that contradicts their own points. Like I've made with the comparison about the US and China where they say China will run out of steam. OK, but when? And it ignores, for one thing, the role of politics. A lot of what has happened to China really has been because Xi Jinping took over and he has pursued a different orientation of political economic management. You know, before him, you had Hu Jintao, Jiang Zemin who more or less where guys who ruled by committee. And I should say that I'm not a China specialist by any means, all I know is what I read from people who are China specialists. But these are sort of broad, commonly understood trends. But Xi Jinping has moved towards a more Maoist approach towards governing, foreign policy, economic policymaking. So who's to say that had that same trajectory continued from Jintao downward? Who's to say where China would be today? Because by all accounts China has stepped back economically from what it was, you know, a couple of years ago. They've hit a little bit of a wall in the economy and growth has slowed. So in that sense, Acemoglu and Robinson's sort of path dependent arguments is contradicted by the fact that there are things that can happen which can alter the entire course of history. You can't always ignore those very important elements of history, which can change so much. Nothing is ever cast in stone, and when you say inclusive and extractive institution, it makes it seem as though those things are ends as opposed to means to an end. What are inclusive institutions? What are they supposed to do for you? What are extractive institutions doing to the society? Those things are a means to a path, they're not necessarily ends in and of themselves. And so much of what Acemoglu and Robinson discussed in Why Nations Fail just seems to be cribbed from, you know, Mancur Olsen, Charles Tilly, and so many of these guys, but a lot of it is bad impressions of what they have written because it's so simplistic, it makes so many sweeping generalizations and categorization that it just seems as though they've read so many different parts of these authors I've mentioned, put together a sort of literature review, picked in some random theories that they had and created a justification for it. So in that sense, it's not a very helpful way for thinking about why nations fail. I just feel much of what they believe seem to be predetermined and they looked for justifications for them. TL: We'll come back to Chile in a second. But as long as we're bashing economists...LaughsTL: Two economists, a couple of years ago, Ashraf and Galor - Oded Galor, I forgot the first name of the other guy - also wrote a paper talking about the path to development and the long-run determinants of development, generally. And they talk about ethnic heterogeneity and homogeneity as the determinant of development. So their model and, of course, their conclusion say that if a society is too heterogenous then that's bad, if it's too homogenous that's also bad and there's a sort of goldilocks zone in between. And that goldilocks zone is always Western Europe, for some reason. LaughsCO: Right.TL: So, what do you think? I know that that particular paper has come under some severe criticism on methodological grounds, on ethical grounds, and so many others. But you have to ask yourself, and I'm trying to defer with common sense here, can we honestly say that part of the complexity that we are experiencing with governance in Nigeria has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we are 250 ethnicities who speak twice as many languages?CO: I recognize, like you mentioned, that that paper has come under severe criticism. The most famous one that I do remember was this "is poverty in our genes" or something like that that was written by this Harvard anthropologist. That's probably the most famous critique of it I've read but there have been several others. In any case, the problem with looking at heterogeneity as a source of anxiety in plural societies is that it's quite simplistic in its understanding of cohesion. Essentially, when you control for certain norms around certain institutional variables, you will find that ethnic diversity and heterogeneity is mostly...the effect of it is mostly negligible. One of the good things about the social trust literature in the last 20 years I would say is that it's become quite robust, you know, people have started to use better variables to measure social trust as well as heterogeneity. And one thing a lot of scholars have found, especially sociologists have found, is that in many instances as opposed to ethnic diversity and heterogeneity, you are looking at the quality of certain institutions. For example, you look at Nigerian elections, how everyone always say that Nigerians are divided by religion, by tribe and to a certain extent that's true. It's one thing to say that, it's quite another thing to make a leap from that assumption to the fact that one of the reasons why we struggle to get "good governance" - and I have a problem with that term of good governance but that story for another day. Let's just go with it for now - it's one thing to go from Nigerians are divided by ethnicity and religion and all that to one of the reasons we can't have good governance is because we are too diverse, we're too this and that.Rather than that, another way to look at this is why has good governance fail to come to Nigerians despite the fact that the average Nigerian provides his own light or her own light, security and all of this stuff? So rather than this being a problem of ethnic diversity, what it is is a collection of political elites across the entire spectrum of the Nigerian society have connived to become essentially roving bandits denying everybody the spoils of democratic governance. So once you can get to a place where certain indicators of good governance can be improved across the board, ethnic diversity no longer becomes a strong variable in the equation of ethnicity and governance. If you can get to a point where credible elections can be held where there isn't as much ballot snatching, vote rigging and things of that nature, then it becomes very difficult to say that, for example, the police force, which a lot of people use for rigging elections, is, you know, a contributor to ethnic or religious or tribal divisions in Nigeria. Essentially, the point I'm trying to make is that once you can control for certain institutional variables in society and how those institutions respond to the collective of the people, it doesn't mean that heterogeneity stops becoming a source of social angst or things like that. It just means that the state capacity, once you can raise that beyond a certain minimum, it no longer becomes a case of ethnicity becoming a hindrance to getting good governance. You know, that argument is no longer able to fly. What you can then see is that you have raised the bar for governance. Now, how you do that very much depends on so many other things, but it no longer becomes that the reason we cannot get good governance is because, you know, Nigeria is ethnically divided and people are only going to cater for themselves and their own ethnic groups and things like that. Once you can raise the lowest common denominator across the board, the strength of the ethnic angle no longer becomes very potent if that makes sense. TL: Talking about state capacity now, we return to Charles Tilly and he developed this war makes states hypothesis which so many other scholars have expounded on overtime. I just want get your response to how much... since we're talking about long-run determinants of institutions here, and one of the measures that scholars have used along the lines of Tilly over the years is that civil war was a lot more common in Africa as opposed to interstate wars and that may have affected our development or our ability to have state capacity because interstate wars give you the ability to develop manufacturing whether in weapons, coordination, collecting taxes and all these other things that most of our bureaucracies now struggle with. So how valid do you think that is? CO: Yeah, I mean, to a certain degree, your state capacity is hurt when you fight civil conflicts because state formation first of all, as well as capacity is a collective effort requiring the participation and legitimation of all, at least, a broad-based snapshot of society. So, you know, the various ethnic groups, various social classes, people at different education level. So when you fight civil conflicts, you are more likely to cause lasting damage towards your own internal capacity as a state. You know, there's a reason why countries like Liberia, Rwanda, and others like them in Africa that have fought civil conflicts, have mostly continued to struggle with economic development. Because to begin with, they never had much state capacity and then when conflict breaks out, you have a situation where the state that's fragile to begin with starts to attack itself. And because many African countries have lots of large landmass and things like that it becomes very difficult to fight a protracted civil conflict. It takes time, it takes money, resources, people...so that just means an attritional battle that simply reduces the totality of your ability to rebuild, because even when the conflict is over, there is a peace agreement or what not, you are going to have to rebuild your society, not just in terms of physical infrastructure and things like that, but political settlements, peace agreement, reconciliation and things of that nature. Because when you think of state formation and state transformation, these are the elements that come into play, not just economic - you know, building an economy and your physical infrastructure, there's the social forces you have to contend with. One of the reasons why Europe was able to rebuild after the war was the Marshall Plan, and this was of course a collective effort among the European countries to rebuild their economies using American assistance. Of course, they were lots of American companies who went to invest in Europe and made strategic investments in key sectors of European economies and things like that. Those kinds of agreements are easier to arrive at when it's sort of interstate because there are many more participants who are brought to the negotiating table and these intervening institutions that I've mentioned have much more of the institutional memory of creating that kind of atmosphere that can lead to this type of situation where you have a Marshall Plan. Whereas in a civil conflict, how do you do that? I mean, yes, you can have international organizations like the World Bank and commit to reconstruction and things like that, but that is a much more political process, because for one thing you have a situation where warring parties in the country don't even agree, or at least are trying to get to a place where there can be some sort of agreement amongst each other as to what do we do next. Whereas when it's interstate, they are much more interdependent on one another. Economic interdependence, for example, is understood in international relations to be something that prevents the outbreak of war. Now, that's a contested idea, but it's one that continues to have some resonance in international relations. So when there is much more riding on states and other units of interaction in the international system to avoid that kind of situation where states go to war with each other and should they go to war with each other, in order to prevent the 2nd and 3rd order consequences of that outbreak of conflict, to manifest itself going further, there is much more of an avenue to, first of all, get them to stop fighting to end the conflict and then rebuild.Part of the rebuilding of Europe was, well, one, self interested in that the United States saw an opportunity to remake Europe in its image and likeness but also to prevent the outbreak of further conflict. You know, to integrate European economies. That's much more it easier to do on an interstate level than it is to do intrastate. So in that sense, rebuilding state capacity gets harder, especially if you never had much of it to begin with, and when you look at Africa as a continent, there are many more states with weak state capacity than there are those that have strong state capacity. So in that sense there is some merit to the notion that war can make the state. There is some merit to the idea that states can use the defence sector as a means of scaling up other industries, you know whether  it is manufacturing or otherwise, or information technology. But to get there, you needed to have had state capacity to be able to do so in the first place and for many African countries, they don't. So at best, all they would be able to do would be to get to a low intensity level of defence production and they wouldn't be able to create the kinds of high yield defense and manufacturing product that they might be able to sell on the international market and things like that. Because, you know, those are not capabilities they have. But they'd be able to create capabilities that would be able to be disrupted. So in the end they win nothing.TL: I'll also like to return to your point earlier about actors as some kind of exogeneous shocks to long-run institutional patterns or memory. 2015 was hopeful for a lot of people in Nigeria. It was a transition to an opposition party. The elections were largely peaceful. People actually voted out a government which they have agreed was corrupt and has lost a lot of legitimacy. Now here's my puzzle, even though I had my disagreements at the time, how did the APC-led government lose its way so freaking fast? Like, what happened? Somehow it seems like these guys are not prepared to govern and we can see some of the symptoms of that incapability even now. You know, you see rival government agencies... well, not rival government agencies, different government agencies coming to social media to argue about ridiculous things. You have agencies acting as laws unto themselves, there seems to be no coordination, communication, whether from the Ministry of Information or the Central Bank, is always messed up. You know, and some people will look back and say, Oh yeah, we shouldn't have expect anything different because maybe these guys were just a ragtag band of the disgruntled. But it's still puzzling. How did a coalition that rode the wave of popularity and, I'll say, illegitimacy, lose it's way that fast?CO: Like you correctly pointed out, this government came in...at least, President Buhari came in with so much goodwill. You know, I've always said that Buhari came in with probably the largest amount of goodwill of any Nigerian president probably since Shehu Shagari. And that was because, you know, Shagari came in as the first president of the second public and there was so much anticipation and goodwill. Much the same was true of Buhari. Of course, it's a different context, but as you said, he's the first opposition president to take office. He won a fairly convincing election. Yes, it was very bitter, people had their disagreements and it was well contested. But as you noted, it was peaceful. The Buhari campaign, and it's very important to talk about it without being too colored by the experiences of what's happened after. Looking at it purely from the lenses of 2014/15, it was a truly remarkable campaign, you know. Back in the day I was a volunteer for the Obama campaign and I remember just how that experience was incredibly...was probably one of the best political campaigns that many Americans had ever experienced. The Buhari campaign was kind of like that for many Nigerians. It was by the standards of Nigerian presidential campaigns, it was a remarkable exercise not just of messaging, but also of marketing, of connection with the Nigerian public in ways that previous presidential candidates or campaigns hadn't done. And then, of course, just bring to it back to the Obama thing, I remember hearing that they'd hired some Obama campaign vets as consultants. So, everything made sense in the way that the messaging of Buhari as this sort of transformational figure who would changed so much about Nigeria based on his antecedents as a anticorruption crusader and all of this stuff. It was a really remarkable campaign. It was kind of decentralized. You know. You had the Southwest APC caucus who were doing their own thing. Who were largely in charge of the sort of the policy messaging and the branding and all of that stuff. And then you had the Northwest caucus of APC, who mostly did a lot of the groundwork and the get out the vote operations, and... you know, it was a truly organic campaign in ways that few Nigerian campaigns had ever been.And then they won big and the APC also won big in the National Assembly elections and the governors' races. So frankly, the APC didn't anticipate winning by as much as they did and they were clearly unprepared to govern. You know, because when they get this big win, all of a sudden there's all this infighting among themselves about, oh, who gets to become principal officers in the senate and all of this stuff. We all remember what happened with Saraki, Dogara and all these other guys. This was a party that was lacking in discipline, frankly.The desire to defeat Jonathan sort of papered over all of those cracks in their coalition. First of all, don't forget that APC was formed in 2013 or something like that. Yes, they've been in discussions for quite some time about a merger, but I always say that ABC resembled and continues to resemble a parliamentary coalition, rather than a Presidential System Party. Like when you look at Isreal, for example, where in a cabinet you might have... Let's say if it's a right wing cabinet, you might have the Likud, you might have Shas, Yisreal Beiteinu...these are all right wing parties. They have very little in common other than the fact that they don't like The Left and their government fall apart very quickly, one person resigns...That's what APC has often felt like because there was very little that they had in common beyond "we want to get rid of this guy called Goodluck Jonathan" and as soon as they do that, it's like, well, OK, now what? And that's when all the stuff starts with the principal officers and all of the cat and mouse games that they're playing, and then the fact that the President takes six months to form a cabinet, especially given the scale of the challenge, everything he had promised, everything he talked about. That just told the entire world that this wasn't a party that was ready to govern. I mean, the country was teetering on the edge of a...TL: Of an economic collapse.CO: Right, right. I mean, times were really terrible when president Buhari took office. Like, it's hard to overstate just how awful Nigeria's economic conditions looked at the time and he takes six months to put together a government. And then when they do eventually put together a government, it's one of the most underwhelming set of picks you could ever ask for. You know, in terms of the weight of the expectation and all... TL: I remember my mode upon seeing that cabinet list..that day, man, it was just... seriously, we waited six months for this?CO: Right. TL: Like, seriously?CO: That was literally how so many people thought that "this is what we waited six months for? You've got to be kidding". So in political science they talk about political capital. That's when the leader, typically a new one, comes in. You know, you have all the goodwill, so many people are behind you, there's the euphoria of your inauguration and all of these stuff. There's why they talk about the first 100 days in the US, [that's] when president, frankly, has so much room to do a lot of things and what you do may even go on to shape the rest of your presidency. I always say that President Buhari, frankly, could have come in and done anything he wanted in, let's say, June of 2015, and the country would have overlooked it. They would have looked the other way cause such was the [goodwill]. The goodwill and expectation and hope was so high, so the fact that they took six months and when they put together, it was that cabinet. They've lost six months of policy initiatives, they've lost six months of political capital, they've lost six months of contact with foreign governments because that's also a part by virtue of the fact that there's no minister of foreign affairs or ministers of any kind. You know, governments, investors donors, they weren't sure what to do. Like, who do we talk to? Who do we go to? Do we wait? So there was so much that was lost and by the time the government get into shape and putting together the motions to start creating some policymaking motion, a lot of time had been lost. And then don't forget that the president was ill a lot of 2016. He was away from the country, so effectively the president lost half of his term either due to ill health or the delays of picking a government and all of that. So there was so much the president lost that he, frankly, has never gotten back. And that is why the recovery such as it was, was quite underwhelming because there was the potential for a much stronger, and I'm not an economist, but you know, that's the way economic cycles work. Depending on what you do, there was the potential for a much stronger recovery, but then you had all this stuff with the currency, they were dithering back and forth between several ministries and, you know, there was such an incoherence in terms of government planning that a lot of Nigerians who were very sympathetic or supportive outright started to have second thoughts about "do these people know what they're doing?" and blah blah blah...before you know it, it's 2017. In 2018, they're starting to think about running again. So, there is the fact that this party was simply not prepared to govern. They just weren't, you know. And this is despite the fact that they were and are so many experienced people in the party who've been in politics for a long time. Because, after all, their APC was formed as a merger of ACN, CPC, the new PDP as they call themselves and some people from APGA and, you know, these aren't newbies to politics. These are people who've been around for a long [time]. So you would think they'd be able to marshall some sort of urgency, but again, that speaks to the lack of party discipline inside APC, you know. For all of the faults of PDP...because, one, it's a much more established party and because of its origins it's been the elite guard of previous iterations of the party, whether it was people from NPN or former military officers, this the party that had a much more...they were much more ready to govern. Parties like PDP and the likes are what political science literature will call authoritarian successor parties. That's parties formed within a political transition from authoritarian rule to democracy. So PDP was formed in '98 based on a number of elites who were opposed to Abacha, Solomon Lar and all these other people, put together the G34 and that's how they form it. These are people who've been in government for a long time. They've been in politics for a long time and they, frankly, were organized. So as soon as Abacha dies, Abdulsalam scraps the Abacha transition and creates a new one, they gather themselves together, pick candidates all over the place, win, they get into office and they're ready to govern because so many of these have brought administrative and bureaucratic skills whether as former military officers or former governors or party heads, and things like that. And there was some sense of party discipline. There wasn't much party internal democracy, but there was at least some party discipline. Whereas in APC, there wasn't a whole lot of party discipline or party internal democracy. That's why over the last five years, so many factions have been fighting each other.Remember the last round of primary elections? How "aww, my God" in fact, in a number of states, the weren't able to field candidates in the general election, such was the chaos where there were parallel congresses, parallel primaries, this thing and the other thing, they didn't file candidates in time, so they couldn't put up a... That's the kind of thing you've got under APC because this was not a well ordered party. This was a party where they had a strong figure in President Buhari, and that's about it. Everything else, there was no sense of...unity isn't even quite the word, but there wasn't a sense of party organization where, yes, all parties have there internal disputes all the time, but, you know, there wasn't any sense of: this is the goal. This is what the party believes in, this is the mechanism to resolve dispute.The whole time Oyegun was fighting this camp, that camp was fighting that camp, and even in the states... I remember a time when there were nearly three wings inside APC in Lagos State, I mean, they've got so ridiculous during Ambode's time. So APC has a party never had time to develop organically and it showed. And it spilled into governance. I always say that you can't separate politics from governance. You know, one necessarily begets the other. You get to form a government because you need to win election. How do you win election? Mostly by forming political parties. So you can never separate the two and perhaps it's not even necessary to separate the two because after all, party politics is an expression of democratic politics just as much as governing is because after all you a mandate somehow... under the banner of a party and all of that, but it didn't seem like and still doesn't as far as I'm concerned that APC understood any of this. So going forward and I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong on this, but it would be interesting to see what happens going forward...so this year we've had with two elections in Ondo and Edo. They won in Ondo and lost in Edo. I think the Edo elections are a harbinger of what's to come, frankly speaking, because there will come a time where there are so many people who are going to want to succeed President Buhari. There are so many governors, there are senators and those are people only within the party. There are some people who are in PDP who are still going to defect and all of this other stuff, I struggle to see how the center will hold. If for no other reason than the fact that the uniting figure that kept everyone in line is going to be on his way out, presumably anyway. So when there is no more Buhari, what is going to hold the party together? I really don't know. I really don't know. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.ideasuntrapped.com/subscribe

These past few weeks in Nigeria have been a series of unfortunate events with October 20, 2020 being the darkest day in the history of modern day patriotism under a civilian government.  That said, this message is particularly for Nigerian youth to get busy gaining knowledge about Nigeria and Africa as a whole. We need to know where we are coming from to prepare for where we want to get to. Nigeria will rise again, and it is in the little things we do.  NewAfrica's YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJH-fn0wLu5uwXX33jNToQw Link to the Nigerian Constitution - https://publicofficialsfinancialdisclosure.worldbank.org/sites/fdl/files/assets/law-library-files/Nigeria_Constitution_1999_en.pdf

Federal High Court for Abuja rule sey President, Muhammadu Buhari (retd), follow to break the law when he send the names of 11 candidates wey National Judicial Council suggest for appointment as judges for High Court wey dey Federal Capital Territory to the Senate for screening and confirmation. Justice Inyang Ekwo make the pronouncement for suit wey Abuja-based lawyer, Oladimeji Ekengba, file wey dey challenge the forwarding of the names of the 11 nominees by oga Buhari to the Senate he sey e breach section 256(2) of the Nigerian Constitution. Oga Buhari without explanation been pick 11 names from 33 wey dem recommend to am for April this year by NJC for appointment as FCT High Court judges.

The 2020 WIMPol webinar will explore conversations around mitigating the paucity of women in the Nigerian Political sphere, the current provisions of the Nigerian Constitution on gender diversity in the political terrain and the crucial need for increased representation of women in elective & appointive positions of power. The Webinar will help participants re-imagine a Nigeria that stands tall in diversity and inclusion. This year's event will host distinguished speakers who have a combined professional experience of over 100 years in the political and electoral reform space. Speakers: 1. Ahmed Raji, SAN - Founder/Principal, Ahmed Raji & Co. 2. Senator Binta Masi Garba - Senator of Adamawa North Senatorial District. (2015-2019) 3. Clement Nwankwo - Executive Director, Policy and Legal Advocacy Centre 4. Professor Ayo Atsenuwa - Dean and Professor of Law, University of Lagos, Director at Legal Research & Resource Development Centre Moderator: Hon. Nnenna Ukeje, Member, House of Representatives (2007-2019)