the WoW - the World of Work!

Part 2 of this Episode of the World of Work Podcast, the WoW, continues the conversation with Mureille Antille, Head of Government and Industry Affairs at LHH. about transitions and career management. In part 2 we look at to what extend public institutions are also adjusting their thinking with regards to employment and what are some of the things we can start doing ourselves as individuals in order to stay ahead of the curve of change! As a reminder, this was a live event and we opened welcomed the inputs and questions from the audience. YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZAF7IEl2dQ

There is no doubt that we are witnessing an increase in mobility inside and outside companies and that transitions are the new normal. In this episode I am joined by Murielle Antille, Head of Government and Industry Affairs at LHH to discuss the topic from different perspectives. How ready are we to see transitions as the new normal? How do companies see this shift? How can individuals feel in control during these volatile times? This was a LIVE event and throughout the episode you will hear participants voicing their opinion on the matter. Bio of Murielle Antille: As SVP, Head of Government and Industry Affairs with LHH, Murielle Antille is responsible for the relationships with external stakeholders such as policy makers, institutions, communities or think tanks. As a member of the Global Leadership Team and global thought leadership council, Murielle acts as an internal advisor on topics related to future of work, labor markets, regulations and further external developments impacting LHH's activities. In the past, she held various functions in global sales as well as lead LHH European talent development business. Prior to joining LHH, Murielle worked in international business development, human capital management and partner management. Murielle holds an M.A. (lic. rer. publ. HSG) in economics, law and political science from the University of St. Gallen (HSG), Switzerland. She has worked and lived in Asia, Russia and Latin America. YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gValq9ryX4g&t=12s

What are the challenges NGOs face when managing the workforce? How easy is it to attract talent? How do NGOs cooperate with one another on the ground? How do they share talent? In Part 2 we go a bit deeper and unveil some of the romanticism that at times is linked to NGOs. It is often a world made of hardships where your own safety and security can be at risk depending on which parts of the world you are operating in. Adrian Förster, CEO of Save the Children, has no doubts that to join an NGO and stay motivated and engaged you need a very strong intrinsic drive and camaraderie that is linked to your sense of purpose that helps you overcome the hardships! Remember to check out the video on my YouTube channel and to subscribe! https://youtu.be/Zcg3ip96zPo °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° Bio of Adrian Förster, CEO of Save the Children Switzerland Growing up in Brazil and Argentina, Adrian was confronted at an early age with social inequality, poverty and children's problems. For ten years, he led a development project for SAM global in Guinea and then served as Deputy Managing Director for the same organisation in Switzerland. For the last five years Adrian was CEO of TearFund Switzerland before joining Save the Children. He holds a Master in Law and a Bachelor in Theological and International Studies.

In today's episode I put the spotlight on a different world of work, the world of work of NGOs in general and of Save the Children in particular. I met Adrian Förster, CEO of Save the Children Switzerland recently as I am hosting a live music and fundraising event for Save the Children on December 11 in Zürich and I thought it would be a great opportunity to learn more about what their world of work is like! What are the challenges they face? What's it like to work in an NGO? What led Adrian to pursue this path? How easy is it to attract talent? How do they measure success? As it's quite an unknown world for me, and I suspect for many people, I had loads of questions! Tune in to Part 1 ! And remember the WoW is also available as a video on my YouTube channel. Make sure you subscribe so you're always on the know of the latest releases! https://youtu.be/3CKM3BGVcbw °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° Bio of Adrian Förster, CEO of Save the Children Switzerland Growing up in Brazil and Argentina, Adrian was confronted at an early age with social inequality, poverty and children's problems. For ten years, he led a development project for SAM global in Guinea and then served as Deputy Managing Director for the same organisation in Switzerland. For the last five years Adrian was CEO of TearFund Switzerland before joining Save the Children. He holds a Master in Law and a Bachelor in Theological and International Studies.

The great resignation, career downsizing, side hustles, career slashes.... lots going on around careers these days! Redefining them, managing them with intention and taking ownership of one's decisions including acknowledging the trade-offs, is what the new career game is all about. Nothing comes for free! You still need to work hard to get what you want. and, let's face it, we wouldn't want it any other way. Tune in as Sergey and I continue our conversation about the changing World of Work and how careers require new strategies and approach. Also check it out on YouTube:: https://youtu.be/FsUDZwQRE10

In this episode we focus on career management together with Sergey Gorbatov. Learning how to manage your career is a real skill that many people underestimate. As the world of work gets more and more volatile and unpredictable deciding what game you're in and what strategy you want to play will save you a lot of time and help you stay focused on your goals. You can also watch the video on Paola Granati You Tube Channel °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° Dr. Sergey Gorbatov , Professor at IE Business School (Madrid, Spain), lectures and researches in the disciplines of Leadership, Organizational Behavior, and Human Resources. Outside of academia, Sergey is Area HR Director, LATAM at AbbVie, a Fortune 100 company. His recent book, ‘FairTalk: Three Steps to Powerful Feedback' (co-authored with Angela Lane), enables any leader to drive results in their teams through fair, focused, and credible feedback. He is a director at the Center for Feedback Culture at Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam.

Part 2 of "How to Become the CEO of your life" continues as we talk about performance appraisals and how the most important focus is on building up on your strengths and making sure you are the best you can be at those while not ignoring any disturbing noise that may come from your weaknesses. If we don't address the noise then there is the risk that the rest of our talents are not even seen. But "fixing oneself" is not a resourceful way of being and thinking as it presupposes that one is broken and that to be successful one has to fit in other people's model of the world. A simpler way is to figure out what you want, what you're good at, what you want to be a part of, where you can make a difference and work hard! Lewis Maleh is founder and CEO of Bentley Lewis, an award winning boutique executive search firm with offices in London, Miami and New York. He also hosts 2 podcast shows: Don't take out your phone! and The Recruitment Show.

In this episode, I was sitting on the other side of the microphone as guest speaker at Lewis Maleh's podcast and LIVE show called The Recruitment Show. Lewis invited me to talk about my story and share some thoughts on my experience and what it's been to change paths and become a CEO of my life, which to me means a Creative Explorer of Opportunities! In PART 1, we touch upon many topics: how people can take control of their careers, the importance of knowing how the corporate system works if you want to be successful in that environment, and even more importantly how to value your self worth. If it's true that people are the most important assets in companies then we have to start believing that ourselves first ! Lewis Maleh is founder and CEO of Bentley Lewis, an award winning boutique executive search firm with offices in London, Miami and New York. He also hosts 2 podcast shows: Don't take out your phone! and The Recruitment Show.

The conversation continues as we unpack some of the myths linked to coaching and take questions from the participants. What's the difference between executive coaching and life coaching? What to do when the coachees expect the coach to come up with the answers to their problems? Is everyone coachable? and more! Join me together with Chiara Covone, Executive Coach & Marketing Professional, as we bring clarity on this very important topic!

There is a lot of noise around coaching! But is there just as much understanding as there is noise around what coaching is and what it isn't? Who is it for? How much should it cost? What are the benefits of coaching? And how do you know whether the coach you are working with is qualified to help you achieve your goals? Together with Chiara Covone, we unpack some of the myths around coaching in this LIVE Episode of the World of Work Podcast, the WoW, where we were joined by BA coaches and participants who pitched in with their questions and comments! Chiara Covone is an executive coach with 20+ years of corporate experience in multinational giants, like Philip Morris and Mondelez, where she pursued her career in Marketing, Innovation and Design until she decided to embrace full on her passion for coaching. Tune in to Part 1!

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What a better way to celebrate Women's Day & Week than to dedicate a special WoW to the Women of the World! Through our voices we share the words and work of women who have inspired us so we can honour them, thank them and remember them in this special occasion. Their strength, courage and struggles are what make the world of women so intense and what continues to drive the need for awareness and change especially in relation to human rights, access to education, domestic violence and gender parity. This has been a fantastically enriching community experience: each speaker chose freely the text and quote they wanted to record and sent it to me. I then curated the production of the episode creating sounds and music as I was putting the clips together and following the emotions. I am grateful for their participation and willingness to take part of this! The speakers and their chosen female author, artist, writer, philosopher or influencer, are: Dorota Grabowska => Tamara de Lempicka & Michelle Obama Federica Traverso => Natalia Ginzburg & Elif Shafak Andrea Bressan => Mia Martini & Mary Shelley Chiara Covone => Susan Jeffers Xi Xi Jia => Anjali Sud Nieves Tortosa => Coco Chanel Vasco Teixeira => Jane Fonda Gloria Zhang => Brene Brown Petra Blume => Brene Brown Irina Bouras => Simona Halep Francesca Ceccherini => Hannah Arendt Anat Wulff => Golda Meir Germana Barba => Virginia Woolf All rights reserved to the original authors of the texts and quotes that are being recited. For the song of Mia Martini, I took the liberty of freely translating and interpreting it from Italian to English to better render the full meaning of the lyrics. Original music score by Paola Granati

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Final part of the LIVE Event which took place in October! And the final Episode of the Season 1! We start by addressing a question related to LInkedIN and we continue with the panelists from where we left off in perfect WoW spirit!

[music] 00:07 Paola Granati: Hello, everyone and welcome back. This is part two of The World of Work live event. This live event, which took place in October, and it was really wrapping up the first season of The World of Work where the focus was on what to do if you are out there in the job market, which we do realize it is a complicated market out there. It's probably much more supply than there is a demand at the moment. So based on that, what are the some job strategies that you need to rethink, redo and maybe reset your expectations. So we continue the conversation with the guest panelists and in particular now, it is with Sunita Malhotra, talking about practical tips on what to do when you're repositioning yourself. Let's tune in. 00:53 Sunita Malhotra: So the first is, preparation. Preparation has three aspects to it. The first is figure out for yourself what your skills and competencies are and I call this bucket or circle, if you will, can do. "What can I do? So, what are my skills and competencies?" Because now the market is looking much more at skill sets. They're not looking at jobs. They're looking at skills and experiences. One very, very simple way to do that, very simple... Take a blank sheet of paper, write your list of accomplishments, things you're proud of, things you've done, literally from your childhood. My earliest memory is six, when I did something good and I was proud of. It sounds weird what I'm saying, but trust me, if you'd... And I've done this, so I know it works. If you write this list of accomplishments, from that you can pull out those skills and competencies, you will be surprised. You will think, "Oh my god, this was so obvious to me and oh there it is, "so it's a trend. 01:50 SM: So first, things you can do, many other ways to do it, but figure out your skills and competencies. Second, what is it that you want to do? This is that perfect moment to say, "What inspires me? What drives me? What's my passion?" Simple, blank sheet of paper, I love blank sheets of papers. Left column, what I love doing, what I can do 24 hours a day. Right column, what I absolutely hate doing and I will not do it, I'll never want to do in my life. Something to figure out what you want to do, that's a second. And the third is, "Who am I?" And I'm not gonna give you long lectures and value propositions and personal brands, there's loads of stuff on Google but, "Who am I? What is it that I am bringing to the table? Why me versus somebody else?" Thinking about that, and there are many, many ways to do that. But also, "What are my constraints" and we have to be realistic, sometimes it's a geographical constraint. Nowadays, there could be a financial constraint. So, what is it that if am I the only breadwinner in the family? Do I need to think about certain things? So, that third bucket is about who am I, but also what are my family and geographical, financial constraints, if you will. 03:01 SM: So what I can do, my skills and competencies, what I want to do, what my constraints are. The beauty of it is, that's the sweet spot. If you find the intersection of these three circles, if I picture them as a circle, that's the sweet spot. Once you figure that out, then you can just begin to build scenario. So, a scenario could be, I've been in the corporate life, I wanna continue in corporate life in the same industry. Another scenario could be, as Paola, I think very nicely said, she's at a stage in her life where she says, "I wanna be an entrepreneur and I'm testing up the market, and I'm trying something different." I know of somebody in my family who said, "I wanna do a startup, let me try that out." And it's endless because the market has flex things, virtual jobs. There's again, loads and loads and loads of research of... How the world of work is changing. So think of scenarios. Once you've done that, you're prepared. Okay, so that's first step, done. Check. Not so easy of course, it's hard work. It will probably take you a lot of time to actually do that, so invest, invest in yourself. 04:09 SM: The second step is targeting, and when I say targeting... Let's take a concrete example. If one of your scenarios is, "I'm in corporate life, I'm somewhere in the mid of my career, and I wanna continue in big corporate," then your scenario, your targeting starts with three things. Again, I love three things, as you can see. The first is target the list of industries. So what are the industries that you want to work in or might like to work in and what do you not want to work in. Now the not sometimes it's fascinating because it's very easy for us as humans to know what we don't want. Some people may say, "I don't agree with a gun industry, so I don't wanna work there", so simply again, what you want, what you don't want, but a target list of industries. Then from that, you can draw the target list of companies, very concretely saying. If I wanna work in the fast-moving consumer goods, I would like to work for Coca-Cola and I definitely would not like to work for P&G. So, target list of companies. 05:07 SM: And then most importantly is the target list of networks. Now networks, and there's a whole podcast on that. You can watch that... Watch part one and part two, right Paola, done by Paola, me and Susan. But simply networks is people you know. The obvious ones that are around you, recruiters, we have some already online, so all these... How many people are online now? Irina? 23, 25, today?  05:34 Irina Bouras: We have 28. 05:35 SM: Yes. 28. So that's my call to fill in that Excel sheet because you just have 28 people multiplied by however many people we know. People you know, recruiters and social media, I mean that's a world out there. I know Irina is the millennial generation so she'll share more about it and Andreea. So there's LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, you name it, telegram, and I'm losing track myself. So, targeting industries, companies, networks, so that's the second step. Now you're prepared. You know your target. Hard work, hard work, guys and ladies and gentleman, I say because this is half the work and there will be moments where you will pull your hair out and you will say, "Oh my God, I'm not getting into the sweet spot." That's cool, because from chaos will come confusion, but you need to prepare, you need to invest because if you go slow, to go, you will go really fast. Trust me, and I'm saying this, having done it myself, having seen many of the execs but also younger people that I work with, having done that. So that's step two. 06:42 SM: And then the third, networking. I won't bore you with all the details, but again, three things. First, be very clear on your outcome and your objective. Networking is not about, "Oh, I wanna find a job." Be very clear on what you want from the network. It's a give and take. Paola is today, a friend of mine. I worked with her in Philip Morris. She's a friend. She's become my network 25, 30 years later. Did I know that at the moment? No. But there was a lot of give and take in the relationship along the way, so that's second. And third, remember, a network is not one person. So, I might know, I don't know, millions of people. Irina knows another million. That's your network. So it's not the four or five people that you choose, it's the people they know. So, be clear on the outcome, give and take, and again, it's a much broader network then you have. And now that you have your preparations, you know your target, you have a sense of your network, what do you actually do with the network, and this comes a little bit to me, very soon I'm gonna turn the word over to Irina, about how do you stand out? How do you shine?  07:52 SM: I don't have all the answers, but I have two or three, very concrete examples of what I've seen people do, that works effectively. I've seen people actually read all the media that there's been out there, figure out an issue in a company. So example, you wanna work with Coca-Cola. What's going on for Coca-Cola at this moment that's a burning issue for them and there are many ways to find that out. Through your social networks, through LinkedIn, through... Yeah. You name it, websites. Find a way you can add value on that specific issue. In your network, try and find somebody through LinkedIn or other media, who is involved in that issue and have a conversation. So it becomes very specific, it's about an issue that's on the mind of the company itself. It's a fantastic tool, trust me because sometimes there are no jobs but I think as Paola said, they will create one for you and I'm saying that also from my HR experience. They'll say, "Wow! We didn't actually have that job out there, it's not published out there but it was a hidden job, we were thinking about it." So there are lots of hidden jobs out there, so you might just have that first. 09:01 SM: And then the second, CVs. Great. We are still in the CV world. Yes, we use recruitment agencies. Thank you. Keeping many of you in jobs, but what is eye-catching? What really stands out? And two examples that struck me. One was, I've seen Amazon does it but I know many other companies do it, they don't want CVs anymore. They want a commercial, they want a YouTube video, they want to know who you are in a YouTube creative, innovative manner. Okay, there are many other companies that ask for those kind of things. So, how do you stand out? The one that I love is, somebody actually, during a network conversation, did a metaphor and he said... He said, "You know, I'm a bottle of wine." And this was during a conversation obviously but he also made a little video and posted it on LinkedIn and he said, "And now I need to decide whether I'm the nice wine, or you know, which is 15 years old, or I'm the average wine that you drink quickly." So, what is that? What kind of wine am I, and that's really the skills and competencies, what am I offering? The label on the bottle is my CV, so that's all the ingredients that you see on the back side of the bottle, what's there, which region does it come from, what are the other things that have gone into making of it, so that's the CV. 10:20 SM: The consumer is identified targeting. Whatever is in Switzerland and the other country, or is it that specialized wine shop where I want to position. So, that's targeting, that's about the company. What's the price of my bottle, how am I actually pricing this? Is it a cheaper wine, is it... Where am I... And this goes, to a little bit of, I think what Karin said, unfortunately, these days in the market, sometimes you do have to take pay cuts, but again, you have some other benefits. So, what's that? And then, what's the culture of the company? Am I... Do I wanna be in a company that drinks the wine and just closes the bottle and dumps it, or the one that sits there and sips it and tastes it, etcetera. So, I thought this was cool, it's something around the six Ps of marketing. So, whatever is your way, find it, prepare, target, network and then use those networks. And I love this subject, so I can go on forever and that's not the aim because there are many more voices on here, so... 11:27 PG: Yes. [chuckle] 11:27 SM: Forgive me for getting away from you. 11:29 PG: We love you for that, we love you for loving it, and I'm sure people could always connect with you afterwards that but I do wanna share in the meantime the results of the poll, in terms of... We've had at about 70% of the people responding, and it's a fairly, less than six months is the majority of the people... If they are on the market, so it's less than six months that you have been looking for a role. But more interestingly, Sunita, linked to a little bit of what you were saying, and I'm not sure if people can see the polling results here, but the number one, if I were to say, what's the number one part of the job strategy process where people would really like to get better at, it is what you were also mentioning before about the networking, but also networking with the right people. Right at the moment, you are able to make your lists and make your analysis and find your sweet spot, then that's the moment to start activating the right network, and then how to do that, that I do encourage you as well, to listen to the podcast with Sunita and Susan, because I think it does give valuable inputs, especially in terms of having an objective in mind when you are networking. 12:37 PG: But while you were speaking, I've had a call, a call... Not a call, 'cause you could see, I was not on the phone, but I've had a chat question, which I will try to articulate as well, there are some jobs that are not necessarily standard jobs out there, and they could be more creative jobs. Jobs that don't necessarily either come on a LinkedIn application, don't necessarily come with a job title, don't necessarily come with a job description unless you may wanna call it graphic designer, or you wanna call it creative director, or you wanna call it... Again, out of your typical industry type of jobs, what would you recommend... And this is for everyone, actually, how to position yourself, if you have these multiple types of skill sets that ultimately land within creative, whether... It's too simple to say graphic design, but it tends to be boxed into a job description. How do you move out of that box? How do you position yourself as an experienced professional, creative director that can actually spend their skills in different areas and in a different type of job, how do you break out of some of the rigid paradigms that we find in job descriptions and job titles?  13:55 Karin Wierinck: It's not an answer, but my immediate reflection when you say this, Paola, is that in a world where flexibility and agility is one of the buzzwords and where companies are asking for that, I think that if you have quite diverse experience and you've done different things, I think this is a significant asset. Because what will you do? You will bring the experiences from your backpack to bear, and if you have quite diverse experiences, then you can integrate and inter-link. So if that is your situation, then I would really think about, okay, what has brought me to this point that I have this diverse experience, what do I really love and what are my selling points? And the selling points are really this bringing together the diverse experience and the flexibility and the agility that results from that. So that would be my in-the-moment thought on this. 15:01 PG: And also, it links me to another question that we've also had. It's more related to the ladies out there, so I'll ask the gentlemen to excuse me on this question. But sometimes for personal reasons we may take a break from work, and that break may be linked to family, maternity, or other very legitimate reasons, I would dare say, and then it's hard to re-position yourself in the market when companies see that gap in your CV, or even those who decide to take a sabbatical break. The difficulties in breaking out of a very rigid way of looking at curriculums... And Sunita, I do understand there are people who are doing YouTubes. We have somebody as well who has been asked to do a video within marketing to present herself and to sell herself on what's her unique proposition and why should a company be hiring her. 15:56 PG: So videos are becoming a very popular way of doing that, but the questions are all related around how do you fill that gap when you know that that gap has been really focused on other priorities in your life, and how do you make sure you're not losing out or being discriminated? I use that word, my word, not the word of the person who asked the question, in a job market which tends to be driven by algorithms and therefore tends to quickly say "this CV, yes," "this CV, no" based on pre-populated, if you will, formulas and equations. So I really open it up to the panel. As you can tell, I'm already taking questions 'cause I'm conscious of time, too, as we are at 2:30 and I wanna give an opportunity to have an interactive conversation and to be a little maître of ceremonies and putting questions out there to the panelists to be able to support some of our participants. 17:02 SM: I'm happy to add just something on that from an HR perspective and also from a woman perspective. I think it depends a little bit on what companies you're looking at, because yes, if you are going to the traditional companies that are not looking at sabbaticals or not looking at that women or men need to take some time off, then sometimes it's about deciding, and that goes back to what Karin said, recalibrate expectations, because maybe those are not the companies that you actually want to be going towards. And that's opening up a little bit your mind and expectations. That's been my sense and my experience from what I've had and heard. 17:39 Mona Amin: And I can jump in to say that when you start the process, you would be surprised how many are actually open to have such profiles as a part of their organization because diversity is becoming a big topic, and diversity is no more revolving around gender. It is also coming around from the experiences that you've had, the breaks that you have taken, the industries that you have not worked for, and etcetera, etcetera. There are a lot of people welcoming people who want to come back after a career break. So give it a try, don't be disappointed if you don't get a yes in the first chance itself, but keep trying. 18:23 KW: What I would also add to that a little bit, Mona, I think it's also about owning your decision in a way. If you decided that this is what you wanted to do because... Whatever the reasons are, this made sense to you at that moment in time, then I think it goes a long way to also being articulate and saying why this was critical to you at that point in time, regardless of some of the job consequences that may be perceived to be the consequence of that decision. I think if you can be stronger and feel more secure in that, I think that that would also be a really big help. And I would say something maybe a little bit more generally, because this is about algorithms and how do you get your CV to the top of a pile? I don't think that you can rely on LinkedIn or whatever search engine to put you to the top of the pile, even if you see, "Ah, I'm top 10 of LinkedIn applicants." I think you still need to find other ways to then make sure that you're getting noticed. So for me, the way I have done that, and the way I have done that for others, is that I'll try and see, is there someone that I know within my network that has some insight into that organization where I can then maybe approach the hiring manager or the recruiter and go directly targeted to them with a story of what I find interesting. Why I'm motivated in the company, why I'm motivated in the job, what I could do in order to actually make a contribution. 20:26 KW: So I think, find that way in so that you don't leave it up to chance and the search engines and the algorithms, in a way, to put your CV to the top of the list. 20:42 IB: This is where I have to step in a little bit, Karin, because... 20:45 KW: Yeah, of course. 20:48 IB: You just put it into my sector, basically. And I do have to mention the social media etiquette that, obviously, is there to support us. It's not something that we should be afraid of, it's not something that comes out of the blue that we need to completely adapt to that we haven't been using before. I think we just need to tailor a little bit our approach and make use of the technology that is available to us these days, to even get closer to that actual job. Maybe it's a job that's been advertised. Maybe, in most cases, it might not be a job that is advertised, it might be a job that you can co-create or you can really step in because you have a particular skill or achievement that a company is looking for. So I'm talking about social media etiquette in our podcast episode as well. I think this is something that we need to be mindful of because, first of all, you will still be communicating with human beings on the other end. 21:53 IB: So we should treat them as human beings. And as much as you can put your value proposition out there, if it is on LinkedIn and if you find somebody that you have in common with the company that you're looking to apply for, or that you're interested in, your passions and contributions match that particular field, then why not look for people that you can communicate with directly because that will help you stand out. That's exactly how I, as a recruiter, will filter through 200 something applicants and realize that this particular name rings a bell, and this person has reached out to me and told me more about what they're doing, why they're interested in this role. And I might actually pay more attention because they've gone above and beyond to catch my attention for this position. I'm sure line managers will react similarly, if you just make it a little bit easier for them to recognize you, and not the other hundreds of applicants that are in that process. 23:00 IB: So this is where, I think, a little bit more activity, more interest, more effort could be used on the social media strategy as well, for you to promote your identity and your digital identity as well. Because here we are, we are digitally available to you and this is our identity here. We are in a world where we're moving slightly to the virtual, interviews are moving into a virtual direction, some onboarding I've heard is moving into the virtual direction as well. So we will be getting more proficient in these skills and whilst we're at it, we might as well use social media to help us get that job that we desire. 23:46 PG: Very well said and what I love about this multi-generational conversation is that it helps us in the different generations that we're in, to see technology as really as an extra tool for us to be able to achieve what we want to achieve. And I think we've broadened the conversation to say, "Well, it's not only about applying online," 'cause 70% of the jobs are not online. You will not be able to find an opportunity... Or let's say, there are lower chances because of everything we've said before. And this forced fitting of the CV into a standard job description, that's almost old school. So just to summarize a little bit, honor your decisions, like Karin was also saying, honor your values. If you've decided to take a break from your career, you've decided to pursue other priorities, stay confident to that, honor that and find different ways of anyway connecting to the relevant people that you wanna connect to, to the relevant industries, using social media to do so, without right away sending a CV. When I was in the corporate world, people would connect with me on LinkedIn, and even before we had a "Hi, how are you?" conversation, they would send their CV. Now, that's not the best approach. 25:01 PG: That really isn't. Because, when you're on the corporate side of things, the last thing you want, because you're overwhelmed with many other things to do and maybe that's not even your role, 'cause everything is through talent acquisition, it's through a portal, that any way you need to redirect people towards. So that is... I would say it's not the best way of networking and targeting, let's say, corporate professionals that may help you in your next step. Now, I'm also conscious of the fact we have 17 minutes to go, we've covered a lot of ground from looking into the external, what's the job market telling us and what we can do about it, in terms of resetting expectations. I do want to open it up to other questions. If you have them, please feel free to use the chat. 25:57 PG: Thank you, Oliver. I see here, "As I reflect on my last 20 years, Oliver is saying, all my roles have been found through networking, really reminding me of the importance of that channel." And Sunita, of course, so true. Very true. And also, I'm happy to share my experience has always been 90% through networking, and the remaining 10%, headhunters. So never has it really been through any sending a CV through an online application. 26:30 PG: So here ends part two of the World Of Work, the live event, which we did a couple of weeks ago, and from here on, we open it up to the participants to check their questions, check the chats, check the polls and also, finally check what's wowing all of us. So make sure you tune in to the final part three of the World of Work live event or the WoW. Until then, take good care.  

00:02 Paola Granati: Hello everyone. Welcome to this very special episode of The World of Work podcast. It is actually the recording of a live session that we had on October 9th, Friday, October 9th, where we were joined by about 28-30 participants in a Zoom call. And when I say we, it was myself, Paola Granati together with the five panelists who took part of the session together with me, that's Irina Bouras, Mona Amin, Andreea Coman, Sunita Malhotra, and Karin Wierinck. And we covered three main topics in about an hour and a half. 00:39 PG: And the first one was, once again, let's look into the numbers, the trends, the facts. What's the job market looking like at the moment? It's not as difficult as it seems. And we will hear about that. And then the second part is, Well, given this context, given these numbers, given the situation, what is it that we may need to do differently in terms of our job search strategy, but also more importantly, what do we need to do to reset some of the expectations that we have. 01:08 PG: And that does include as well, the time that it's gonna take to find that next new job. And then thirdly, of course, how to keep fueling ourselves and our energies? So we make sure we stay resilient, we stay positive, we stay focused, and we stay confident. That not withstanding the potential nos, not withstanding the potential rejections, we still stay focused, move on and continue in our job search. So we kick it off with the external view together with Irina Bouras who helps us understand what are the numbers looking like? 01:45 PG: Irina, tell us a little bit about what's the market out there? What is it like? 01:49 Irina Bouras: Thank you for the introduction here, Paola. Obviously, representing the recruitment field, I can provide you with some data and a little bit of an overview of what's been happening in the last couple of months, actually. Because first and foremost, as I mentioned in my introduction, I'm very much specialized within the life science sector. So as part of a recruitment agency, we do cover a lot of roles on behalf of our clients within this spectrum. The reality of things is that in the last couple of months, in the last six months, to be exact, from March onwards, the volume of hiring has definitely decreased. And we've seen an impact from that side as well, because there's definitely not that same rhythm in terms of hiring and particularly within the life sciences, we've noticed that some of the projects and some of the positions that we were hiring for beforehand, have either been halted or just put on the bench for the moment. 03:00 IB: However, in terms of what is expected from Q4, I have to say that the hiring plans will definitely strengthen towards the end of the year this year, in all EMEA countries, actually. To be exact, 24 out of 26 countries. When instead, in comparison to last year, I would say it's still not as high a volume, but it will definitely increase in comparison to what we've seen so far during this year. So your efforts will surely be appreciated during this period towards end of the year when we will see a lot of improvement in this area. 03:41 IB: Regarding the overall view in industry and locations, geographies as well, I have to say, there have been noticed a few improvements in terms of particular countries. And the strongest labor markets are anticipated in Greece and Poland towards the end of this year. However, the weakest will be the UK and Croatia, to be exact. In fact, the Polish labor market seems to have bounced back, expecting an increase in the hiring pace in Q4 across all industries. And at the exact extreme opposite, we find the UK where employers continue to struggle with the hiring volumes actually, and there's still a market slump in seven out of nine industries covering telecommunications, also transport, finance and manufacturing. So things are still not recovering as fast as we would expect. However, there are also markets like Germany where the growth is pretty steady. So we don't necessarily see a huge increase, we also don't see a huge decrease. Things have been moving quite steadily. There is still an impact in the manufacturing industry that Germany has been struggling with in the last couple of years, not necessarily corona related, but this is definitely not expected to change right now. 05:14 IB: If we move it along in the life science industry, actually, I still have to say, we are part of a very resilient industry. Around 55% of companies have said that they haven't decreased their volume of hiring, but 45% have. So things have stayed quite normal in 55% of companies as ManpowerGroup has actually surveyed. And we are very positive that this is not going to change. 05:45 IB: In fact, it's going to increase towards the end of this year. So I do believe that this industry is still one that you need to keep an eye on. There's definitely an impact and a positive increase in CDMOs, for example, particularly related to manufacturing, biologics and gene therapies. Also, the medical technology industry has seen a good increase. And it's not necessarily a surprise, but the consumable sector has seen a huge increase on the back of the coronavirus crisis, actually. 06:24 IB: But apart from the traditional industries, I would say there are a lot of other skill sets that are emerging as new skill sets in this spectrum. And I would definitely think that Mona has some things to share with us from the corporate side of things, apart from what we see, as a middleman, bridging the corporate to the job seekers. Mona, I will leave it to you. 06:50 Mona Amin: Thank you so much for giving that big broad overview, that was really nice, especially hearing from what's happening in different geographies, different countries. From where we are sitting, the way we see it is that the sectors which are hiring pretty much revolve around essential work, science, technology. So if you just broadly split it into three, all the essential work which means food retail, online retail, medical, hospital sector, this is still hiring, but maybe not to the pace that they were in before, because they're not even letting people go so or people are not leaving as well very easily so the movement has reduced but it's still pretty much ongoing and you do see people who are needed in this sector. 07:39 MA: There is also activity that's happening in the startup NGO sector, startup sector, care sector, and consulting. I think Sunita you went through that in our call yesterday that consulting is hiring as well and these are the requirements or the skills that are needed on a need basis in different organizations. So whether it's consulting, whether it's a start-up where there's a lot of movement happening, there are startups that are letting go of people but there are startups that are very actively hiring as well, it's mixed. So again, pretty much resonating towards these sectors but when we say these sectors are hiring, it doesn't mean that every job in these industries are up. And I give you example where I work, I work in the pharmaceutical sector, and there is not much activity around sales and marketing, and that's for a very good reason because that's affected tremendously because of COVID. 08:43 MA: There is however a lot of need when it comes to functions that are critical to business whether it's regulatory, whether its quality, compliance, finance, these skill sets are there to stay. They will stay for a long time. And so you do see that when there are open positions in critical functions or fields, these are absolutely getting filled in or these are going out in the market but when it comes to sales, marketing, product specialism, there's a little bit of cautiousness. 09:19 MA: We're not holding off on recruitment but there is caution to say, "Do we really need it now? Can we watch out for a few months? Do we really see how things are evolving? How these roles will evolve as well" because these are not the classic roles that will stay as is. These roles are going to evolve as well. And so there's a little bit of caution to say, "Let's hold on and let's wait to see a little bit more of what's going to happen before we start hiring in these sectors", but again, if it is critical, even within these roles, the hiring is on. 09:55 PG: Mona, actually link to what you were also saying, quite a few of you in the survey were asking questions about working arrangements, what are the new type of working arrangements, employment arrangements, you know, part-time, flexible work time, working from home, etcetera. I think Mona and team, we're also seeing a trend, more and more companies are exploring different alternative options of employment opportunities that we are seeing an increase more and more of this flexibility, not only in terms of where you're working, but actually how many hours you're dedicated to which type of jobs because there is a realization out there that flexibility is going to be the name of the game when it comes to finding employment. 10:37 PG: So I don't know who would want to chip in on that, and maybe Andreea, I do know you have some numbers before we pivot perhaps into as well, Karin's view on, these are the numbers, this is what the market is telling us, but let's see what the real-life experience is as well as we are navigating and looking for new opportunities, maybe Andreea, you would like to chip in a little bit on that conversation before we hand it over to Karin. 11:05 Andreea Coman: Of course. You mean particularly on the vacancy that are recruiting? 11:11 PG: For example, yes, you can share with us a little bit the numbers that you've researched. 11:16 AC: Of course, of course, but I will first start like I go back to the March month when everything started basically, where personally I have seen that numbers of hiring on permanent role decrease and contractor roles increase, at that time. We have also observed that the duration of contractor roles that were previously budgeted for have been shorted from 12 months to six months, for example, but due to the pandemic situation, as Mona mentioned previously, we have seen a high demand for roles within quality, compliance and regulatory affairs. Since September, however, because some sales role are already are on the market as well, and there is still a focus on hiring employees for permanent position rather than contractor roles due to the nature of job and also because companies are looking for talent who can commit for a longer period of time to try it. 12:35 AC: Then let me give you... Let me share with you some roles that are hiring fully or within this period, such for example, statistician and mathematician, we have a tendency to say that there will be within the coming years a 30% growth in the field. Genetic consultants as well, 27% growth, operational research analysts, we will have 27% growth. Medical and health service managers as well, I think around 18% growth. Computer and information research scientist, 16% growth within the coming year. We will also be hiring within epidemiologists, sorry for the pronunciation... 13:40 AC: We have seen 400 more jobs. Biomedical engineers as well, 700 more jobs. Microbiologist, more than 1000 jobs, chemical technician as well, more than 1000 jobs. Biochemist, and biophysicist around 2000 jobs, biological technician, more than 5000, medical scientists more than 10,000, medical and clinical laboratory technologist and technician, more than 35,000, which is wow. So we can clearly see that within those sectors that I have mentioned, there will be some job within the coming year. 14:34 PG: So we're seeing that this trend of the STEMs, the famous STEMs, right under the scientific area of math, chemistry, the sciences, etcetera. I think there's still room for the humanities, by the way, for those who are still interested in, whether it's in HR or other fields, including commercial and marketing. I do know we have a very diverse group of participants, ranging from marketing to finance, to HR, and I think, as we were saying before, that's gonna... 'Cause you all have your experience if you're in the market at the moment, and you know as well what it's like and all of these numbers, may sound a bit distant to you. 15:15 PG: Let's see what the reality is from your own personal experience, and in this I really want to ask Karin to chime in, as a senior HR executive who's also on the market, who knows how to navigate when it comes to looking for new opportunities and her own professional development. And I think, Karin, I'm sure people would really appreciate getting your personal experience with this somehow bumpy job market that we're faced with. 15:57 Karin Wierinck: So I would maybe start by saying, Paola, that... Of course it's not a one- size fits all scenario, right? We could hear that in some cases, there's still growth, maybe to a lesser degree, but still growth, so depending upon the country, the sector, the job, the skill set, the answer will be a different one. For me, being in HR, and then particularly focusing on Life Sciences, that's where my experience is coming from, so it's that segment of the neighbor markets, that crossover, if you like. So, what have I... And this is anecdotal information that maybe competes some of what we have already heard. We've started by saying that, as I already mentioned, I entered into the job market actively in May. At that moment in time, I had made a very expansive list of search firms with my targeted geographies, with an emphasis on Life Sciences and on HR. And I've started reaching out to them, and it was very easy. So you pick up the phone or you send an email and you have an appointment that same week, so then you know that things are super slow, right? Because this is not business as usual. 17:20 KW: If then I move forward a couple of months, then I could see and experience myself that in June, some jobs, maybe they were not the jobs that were for me per se, but some jobs started to materialize. Then July, August kind of went into a dip a little bit, mid-July went into a dip. And now it seems to be coming back to the June level. However, only as late as last Monday, I spoke to a search firm, UK-based... So to confirm in a way, the story of UK is one of the countries that is struggling, where they were saying that they have opened up a contract branch, because their regular permanent branch is not doing well enough. And the consultant was saying that for them, they hear from companies that, "We're in budget load, we're going to delay hiring and we're going to ride the waves of 2020 and then we'll see what '21 brings." Another search firm in Switzerland, actually a global search firm, I should say, because the person I spoke to was Switzerland-based, but global search firm, commented on the fact that they have done significant layoffs because business is not at the level that it was pre-COVID. So, end of February timeframe. 18:57 KW: And then yet another one commented on the fact that they have asked their consultants to take a significant pay cut. So, why do I tell you all of this, right? So, I do think that we have to count on... It's not at a level that it was in February, and I'm always a believer in plan for the worst and hope for the best, and also, I would say know your markets, right? What is the market that you are in? And then calibrate your expectations and your approach relative to that targeted market and that targeted job market. So what does that mean? If you're not in Poland or in Greece, but if you're in the UK or in Croatia, as you were saying, Irina, then I would definitely count on things taking longer, because then if it would normally be six months, then maybe it's gonna be nine, 50% more than what would be the normal time to land a job. 20:07 KW: I think you'll also need to count on the fact that if there are fewer opportunities and we all hear about people that have lost jobs and that have entered the market, there will be more candidates, so competition is gonna be quite stiff to a degree. And that means that, okay, how can you prepare and how can you stand out? And, show a different side, so that you know, you're attracting attention to you. 20:34 KW: I would also say that if you were maybe working in hospitality and you're in HR, then for sure you could look at other sectors, right? Maybe there are other sectors that are doing well and that are transferable and you know, very easy or even adjacent in a way. Like for me, yes pharma biotech, adjacent medical devices, services to life sciences, they're adjacent sectors. You can also look at that. I would look at jobs and transferable skills, and I would for sure also think about pay, right. And like as I mentioned, one of the search firms has asked for this pay sacrifice. This is not a single occurrence, so my advice or my suggestion would be when asked about pay, I would always say, look, I would expect fair and competitive pay that is relevant for this particular market, and this particular segment, but I would also determine for myself... What's my minimum baseline? And what will I not go beyond, so that you are clear in a way on what that may be. And maybe something entirely different because all of this is about thinking what your expectations with that specific market that you are pursuing, in a way. 22:09 KW: I think in the spirit of preparation and competition, I think it's also good that if you're in an active job search situation and you're not working on the job, that you use the time to invest in yourself, right? Whatever that means, I'm like... For me specifically, this means basically three things, it means that I have a coach and I'm working on, you know, some very specific things that are close to my heart. I've signed up for an aspiring group HR director course that runs over six months, that gives me insight into what's new, but also allows me to expand my network and meet new people and different people, and then I also reserve a chunk of time every day to really look at quite diverse topics, right. And diverse topics, either by virtue of podcasts, there are so many on offer. Our Zoom event is an example in a way. But I choose them quite broadly and quite diversely in order to also expand my horizon, and maybe get some new inspiration and use this time productively. So my tips, if you like, sync up your expectations to the labor market and invest in yourself. That would be it from the job-seekers perspective if you like. 23:43 PG: Thank you, thank you for sharing that perspective, and I think also the key learnings of also what you're saying and the thinking you've had to go through is to say, given this external situation, which is pretty extraordinary, and we don't know when it's going to get any better or any different... We need to reset, as you were saying, our expectations in terms of the roles, in terms of even the compensation, and also use this time to invest in ourselves and to kind of help us maybe even not only invest in ourselves but also do a little bit of soul-searching in terms of what is it as well that we may be looking for, are we still following the same path that we always have been following, are there different paths that we can look into, are there different strategies, jobs search strategies that we can look into. 24:34 PG: And Sunita, I'd really like your views on that as well in terms of giving this context. And Karin has helped us bridge very nicely between here are the facts and here's my experience with it, and here's what I'm doing with it, and maybe we can zoom back out a little bit in terms of some brush broad strokes, approaches in terms of the job strategy and in the meantime I will be putting out another poll because I want to hear from you out there if you are searching for a job, we did prepare it. Sunita, if you'll excuse me, but while you speak, I'm happy to launch this poll to get a sense of how long at least people have been looking for new opportunities out there before we go into the job strategy poll. Go ahead Sunita, sorry. 25:25 Sunita Malhotra: No problem. Thank you for that, Karin. I think it all was so wonderful to have a practical experience, right, and Karin, being in the job market now, who better than her to share her strategy. So a couple of things you said Karin that really struck me, and one was "Invest in yourself", and I would just reiterate that. Right, and the second is "re-calibrate your expectations". COVID is tough, right, and every conversation, unfortunately, we have these days, we talk about COVID, but COVID actually has a positive side to it, however hard it may be for many of us, I'm sure, you know, have been touched by it, and me personally also with some members of the family. But it is the perfect moment to step back, it's the moment to find the silver lining in the cloud. And when you said "Invest in yourself", Karin, it struck me to say, what can you do when you step back? You figure out who you are. 26:18 SM: I know we all know who we are, but I'm still figuring out. I'm 54, so it's a perfect moment to maybe recalibrate who am I, what do I actually want, and what am I offering to this market? I think Irina and Andreea as experts have shared a bit of the market, I'm sure all of you have your own knowledge. But who am I? What do I want and what do I offer the market? Now, I'm a very practical person for the ones who know me already, so I'm gonna be, not broad strokes, probably very practical, Paola if you allow me. The job search strategy, there are many, many, many ways to do this, but I have a very simple approach to it because I think sometimes simplicity solves things, right? Three steps. Prepare, prepare, prepare, prepare, prepare. That's the first step. Second is target. I'm a marketing person, I'm sorry, I have to say it. And the third is network, network, network, network right? So prepare, target and network, and I'm briefly just gonna give you a couple of strategies and maybe one or two examples of what can be done. 27:18 PG: And we will leave it at that for now, as I wanna make sure we respect the maximum of the 30 minutes for every episode of "The World of Work" podcast. An hour and a half of audio is a little bit too much, I would say, for all of us. So make sure you stay tuned in and you follow the second part of this very special live event that we recorded on October ninth, and where we addressed these three important areas. 27:45 PG: What's the job market telling us, what do we need to do differently in our job search and then lastly, what are some things we need to do to make sure we keep our energy levels up. So make sure you tune in to the continuation of this live event. Sunita will go a little bit more into detail into her practical strategies. For every three bullet points she's got another three bullet points and then another three, so make sure you're ready to take notes. [laughter] Looking forward to it. Goodnight, and until the next time, take good care. 

[music] 00:00 Mona Amin: We know one thing for sure, it will not be the same as what it was before. So it's important for us to kind of understand what are the skills, what are the things that are needed to make sure that we step into the new reality with a lot of confidence. 00:18 Paola Granati: Welcome everyone, this is going to be the last episode of this season of The World of Work, the Wild Podcast. And as Mona was alluding to Mona is the guest speaker of this episode, we do need to start equipping ourselves with different skill sets as we start embracing a different reality and a new future. But that's going to be for the next season, because today it's all about having an internal perspective, how companies have been adapting, how they've been changing in this new world, how are they looking at staffing? Are they hiring? Yes, no. And I did want to have that internal point of view before closing. And who better than Mona Amin to give us that internal perspective. Mona was born and brought up in India, she has over 20 years of international HR experience across India and Europe, as well as the Middle East and emerging markets. She is a change leader, when you see Mona walking down a corridor, you know there's going to be change happening and you know she's going to be successful at it. 01:24 PG: 'Cause she combines strong work ethics, strong people ethics, and she tells it like it is. And by the way, one small other detail, before we start, Mona has a degree in applied physics. So if any of you, ever want to have a conversation about the relativity theory about quantum physics, about the universe and about Einstein you know who to call. But for now, we're going to land back on this planet and talk about the world of work together with Mona Amin. Very privileged to have you because you'll be able to provide us with a little bit more of an internal perspective perhaps of how from your point of view, you've been seeing and witnessing the impact of this particular crisis, how it's been impacting the way people work, what you've been noticing, how are companies considering or perhaps reconsidering the ways of working as well also due to this crisis, not... People are saying it's just accelerated some of the changes, but love to hear your perspective from an internal point of view. 02:33 MA: Absolutely, this lockdown has given us a very good understanding of essential work, I never have come across this term and the meaning of this term to the extent that we have the... During the lockdown period, I think. We have stripped down essential, non-essential and come to the acceptance that a lot of us, including myself, our work is non-essential. Right? When it came to the real lockdown, those who were on the front line, those who had to go to work, no matter what, was a very different group, and it gives us a... The opportunity to be grateful and thankful that they were out there supporting during those difficult times, and it's still ongoing in many, many parts of the world. So it's interesting to first acknowledge the essential, non-essential work. Also for non-essential workers, like me, typical office-based work jobs even those like sales and marketing has completely redefined the setup. 03:48 MA: We are more and more getting inclined towards remote working, we are more and more getting the sense of work can happen from anywhere. I think this crisis has somehow helped us understand our adaptability, the nature of human beings to adapt into whatever circumstances they are into, and find ways to get things still done. A few months ago, if we would have thought of a world where we all would be working from home all the time, this was completely unbelievable, but now it's the new reality, and a lot of people have accepted it, and it seems like this trend will continue as we move into the new future as well. 04:37 PG: So that's very interesting because in moments of crisis, extraordinary moments bring about extraordinary actions and reactions and ways of figuring out ways of adapting so that we can be operational. What do you think are those things that we will not go back to? That anyway, there's a saying of, "We'll go back to a new normal." This new normal, what kind of things do you think we're going to keep from the past that we're still going to cherish, of course, from the past, and what are those things that you believe are really not... We're not going to replicate from the past that are really going to be a new way of working or even a new way of looking at work?  05:30 MA: Personally, I feel the importance of health and safety, and what health and safety means in times of such crisis has been... Has just come out in reality for all of us. This importance and compliance to it, compliance to all the health and safety measures is probably then the thing which we will see a lot more of. The consciousness of... 06:02 MA: Staying home and how many times have we seen this where people with flu still come to work? I doubt if that would again happen in the months and years that we move forward. I think people will be very cautious of their own health, but also how little things that they do might affect others, so it's a two-way thing. But again, a lot of consciousness around what it means for employee health and safety, your own personal health and safety, I think that part will become a little bit more prominent in our workplaces, but also what it means for us when we are visiting people even personally. I also don't see that we would be going back to the same office setup, whether it is closed offices or open office spaces, it's very, very likely that there will be an adoption or acceptance for remote working, allowing people the flexibility to get work done no matter where they're based and how the setup would look like. 07:12 MA: A lot of companies have very quickly adapted the policies to make that happen for the crisis, and it's very difficult to see that we will reverse it 100%. There will be some degree of reversal to start seeing social interactions because that's been a big missing element in the current setup, we need that. But on the other hand, it would be very important for us to also see that we're not going back to the same setup and we are using the new learning that we've had of work can happen remote as well. I also personally feel that business travels in some of the industries which was used for every meeting, quite a lot of meetings that were happening I would doubt if business travel will go back to the same limits as it was before. So it's very much likely that we will trail back and go choose where we travel and the reasons why, where travel will be critical, and I do feel that there will be quite a few filters on this. 08:19 PG: Which of course triggers so many other questions in my head, but perhaps we will not cover it here, but a little bit the long term consequences from an economic perspective on some industries or some areas that it could be hospitality, airlines, and even office rental space, and talking with some colleagues, they really are reconsidering some of their lease agreements regarding the office rents, etcetera. So it's still unknown what's gonna happen and how these industries may be shaped, that would be my first consideration. And also going back to your initial point on the essential work, workers, I felt exactly the same way, which how paradoxical it is or how humbling I would rather say it is to realize what is really, really essential besides toilet paper. 09:25 PG: We've learned that seems to have been an essential part of our products which [chuckle] it has kind of changed the Maslow's need which to me is still mind-boggling, but putting toilet paper aside, the essential workers are also at times the one that are paid less or recognized even less in the work that they actually do, and so I do realize that opens up another topic in terms of perhaps how the remuneration system at some stage may also adapt to a different way of looking at work, and also a different way of rewarding and recognizing work financially. So the industrial and the economic impact on certain industries is one area, I think that's a big, big question mark, and also the other one, reconsidering what essential work really is like and are we rewarding them and recognizing this essential work in the most appropriate way?  10:28 MA: That's a very, very interesting topic, and I think it's not just you and me, but a lot of people have been thinking about it, and I would be very surprised if the policy makers would not give it a further deep down thought and new policies wouldn't come out from it, whether it is the number of hours they put in, how the shifts are designed, their safety in terms of when they're called on duty during these difficult times, when there is exposure to things that the rest of the world considers risky, and the pay for getting work done in times like this, if not, all the time. 11:11 PG: Yeah, and going back to what you were saying about the working from anywhere and this sense of awareness that, yeah, technically some jobs you can really do them from anywhere, and then the fact that employees will probably be a little bit more concerned, cautious regarding their own health safety, not only for themselves, but also for the colleagues. Have you also checked in with your people, let's say, with your employees in terms of how they feel about coming back to work in a more traditional way, let's say, and how they feel about the post-COVID reopening has not also shifted a little bit their own thinking of saying the majority want to continue working from home, for example, or what's a little bit the sentiment?  12:08 MA: So we've been connected as HR professionals, and this topic has been discussed very widely within the HR community. A lot of the organizations are going through surveys to make sure we get the pulse of the organization, understand, what it feels like as a reaction. 12:31 MA: Bigger cities have different realities, the groups are different, the fact that the schools have not opened up in many places creates a different situation for parents with children who do not necessarily have the right setup to take care of children, so until the schools open to even consider bringing them back to work just doesn't feel right. So there are a lot of underlying factors that are critical for getting people back to work. Use of public transportation versus use of your own vehicle, and in big cities where a lot more people are dependent on public transportation, the risk of the transportation usage carries on transmitting the virus etcetera, has allowed the organizations to look into what is necessary and can we still continue using the setups we had to heavily rely on during the crisis? So there are... It's not just people's mindset of coming back to work. A lot do want to come back to work to have some sense of normalcy, but at the same time, there are a lot of underlying factors which until are completely resolved, we will... It's impossible to see going back. 14:03 MA: And the fact that people have acknowledged that this works. If work from home works, then why do we need to force people? We need to provide office spaces, we're not saying that everybody will work from home all the time, we need to provide office spaces. There are real benefits of having these places where we can come together, manage our meetings, the social interactions which we have been missing, it's important to get back to them as well. There will be office spaces, we're not saying that we will completely get off it, but there will be some level of, let's say calibration between how work can be done and create new work spaces. And new work spaces may not necessarily look the same which we were used to in the past. 14:56 PG: I was talking to a colleague the other day, and it was an interesting survey to your point, that's being done at the moment. Where asking employees, "How do you feel about coming back?" And what's the percentage a little bit about wanting to work from home versus coming back, etcetera. So it's pretty interesting because 40%, roughly, a bit less than half would say they're fine to continue working from anywhere... Or have that flexibility, another 40% kind of saying, "Let's have flexible working arrangements." So maybe a couple of days working from home, or at least the flexibility to decide how many days you can work from home or work from the office. And a smaller percentage, a minority, but still most of the time, due to either because of their home situation where it makes it difficult for people to concentrate and to stay home and actually work effectively, and also the ones who really miss a bit, that office space. So let's say that that 20% kind of saying, "I do want to go back and have a place that I can call my "office space." Quote, unquote. But I do think it will depend a lot on how things develop as well in the future, because we're such adaptable species aren't we? That we pick up very quickly new patterns, new behaviors that, that may also change, right?  16:27 MA: Absolutely, and again, it's not just working from home, but as you said, working from anywhere, and that's... Again a discussion that's coming along is like, why do we have to restrict ourselves to home, we can really work from anywhere. I think there is some cautiousness as well to this because companies do want to make sure that work gets done. And the reservations around the safety that employees could have when they are not necessarily in a setup or in an environment which is considered safe. So there will be a lot of policy discussions even at the organizational level to see what is really fit for purpose, fit for what is needed in these times. And yes, there are groups of people who absolutely need to be at work, even during the crisis. We realize that there are groups who are either because of systems, because of specific equipment need to be at the office spaces, and we need to understand that, that group does exist and we need to make the possible arrangement for this group as well. 17:45 PG: And I do think the big challenge too is as much as employees want measures of safety, security and all of that, which is perfectly understandable, there's a moment where you need to get to work, to your point, so you are exposed to many other situations that may not be so much under control, so whether it's the public transportation or whether you may have to travel nonetheless for business, etcetera, but there are end touch points you may have with the external world and that the employer... Is really difficult for the employer even to take... To guarantee, let's put it this way full immunity, if I may use that word. There's only so much, I guess, you guys can do to maintain safety within the premises, within the corporate environment, but there's a lot of variables you cannot control. 18:46 MA: Absolutely, absolutely. As we are understanding more and more from the surveys, a lot of dependency on the public transportation, and the fact that at this stage, offices are opening up 10% to 20% only. So we are refraining people who have to use public transportation because they do not have other alternatives, we are asking them to stay back and should have the option of working from home or working through a remote, whereas this option... 19:20 MA: Those who have their own transportation then can come to work, but again, the office opening is also slow. We're also looking at, if we do have any other cases, how are we going to track back tracing? Track and trace is very prominent in some countries, but not in all because of the GDPR issue. And as an organization or as organization, it's a difficult one to take a decision whether you want to sign up for it or not because of the data privacy issues that are attached with it. So then how do we contain or keep bubbles which we are also able to track and isolate if we do see cases happening amongst them? So it's not an easy one, but again, this is a transition phase until we get to the new norm, new reality. But what we are seeing with what's happening right now as we speak, of second waves coming in to countries that faced the situation early on, and the reality that this virus is here to stay. It's not that as soon as the lockdown is ended or we are moving to phase two, phase three in some countries and opening up because of economic reasons. It does not necessarily mean that we are going back to the pre-COVID era. It's not that. This virus is still here to stay with us and we're going to be living with it for a long time. 21:00 PG: Yeah, so it's a turning point, isn't it? It's a bit like one of those markers most probably in history that there's a before and there's an after. And that's one of the other reasons behind this type of initiatives or projects regarding the World of Work, which is how to also be proactive about it meaning now we find ourselves with an acceleration towards change because of an external situation that's demanded it. But how do we take this opportunity to also do the changes that we think are the right changes to do, and they were long overdue in some cases, and regardless of a virus or a non-virus, it's a... And I'm wondering if, besides the ways of working, whether this has also triggered different ways of designing work. So whether this has also triggered a reflection, again from an internal company perspective, business perspective on how to design differently. Certain jobs may... The task, the activities that may have been linked to certain roles, that there's a greater maybe flexibility across that as opposed to typical, let's say job description. Well, these are the activities, these are the tasks you're confined to that role. Have you seen or are you considering any further reflections on really designing work in such a way that you may even have different professions popping up at some stage or different... Yeah, different roles?  22:45 MA: Well, as job professionals, we have... Even before the pandemic, we have seen the shift of work roles. A lot of the contract assignments, gig economy, as we would say it or interim assignments have... Consultant assignments have taken off. This portion, this proportion was becoming bigger and bigger because of different reasons in different countries. And we do see that there is a high probability that due to this crisis, there will be a bit of an acceleration to really looking at what's needed here and now? How can we get it done through this group which is... Or this school which is readily available at times in many of the countries? Solve for the problem and then come along to see whether there is a real need for a permanent position if that's the term you're looking for. So it is different... It's not something that is created because of the crisis, it was already there. I think it has just got accelerated and we're moving a little bit faster now to see ourselves face that as the reality. Recruitment, even industries where there is a lot of resilience and I do consider some of the industries like the pharma sector, the healthcare sector, quite resilient to this crisis compared to some other sectors like travel and hospitality... And even the resilient sectors are cautious with recruitment. 24:32 MA: They are going ahead with... Wherever it's absolutely needed. But there are questions being asked, "Do you really need it now, is it now? Can we not consider it in a few months from now?" But where we have a real reason or justification, they're moving forward. So it's not that there is a hold on recruitments, but there is a bit of this fear of saying, "Let's kind of re-look what the new future would look like." And it's a little crystal ball, I don't think we have the ability to read it right now based on what the new age would look like. But we know one thing for sure, it will not be the same as what it was before. So it's important for us to understand what are the skills, what are the things that are needed to make sure that we step into the new reality with a lot of confidence. And the one word, which I don't think anyone has missed in this crisis is the need for digitization, the need to learn the new skills, whether it is the use of IT equipment, apps, whatever. And I do feel as organizations, we have been extremely grateful to the IT infrastructure which has allowed us to sustain through this crisis without feeling a glitch or a hitch. We have just very smoothly transitioned into this new reality all because of the infrastructure that we have somehow, for some reason, invested it, in the past. 26:20 PG: Yeah. For some people it's probably been a smooth transition for others it may have been a bit bumpier, but ultimately the conversation with Mona was also about the amazing adaptability that we as humans have. And as we look into the future of work we'll need to be even more adaptable and look into different skill sets, and I would dare say different mindsets too. But that's the end of part one of this last episode of The World of Work together with Mona. Do make sure you join us for part two. Subscribe, send us your email address, and we will make sure you have access to part two of this episode and the other episodes as well of the World of Work podcast. So until the next time, thanks for listening and as always do take good care. [music]

[music] 00:01 Sunita Malhotra: Absolutely assume everyone is a network, and you have one. 00:06 Susan Kaye: I do have a ton of people who I have something in common with. We all do. 00:12 Paola Granati: Welcome once again to this episode of The World of Work Podcast, The WoW. I'm Paola Granati and today we will talk about networking. And networking is not only important if you're looking for a job, it's just an important skill to be able to master or at least feel comfortable with. And for this session, I'm joined by a panel, by two guest speakers, Susan Kaye and Sunita Malhotra. Now, you've already met Susan in the second episode of The WoW when we were talking about managing transitions. She has this unique combination of HR professional experience and outplacement experience in career counseling. And the second panelist is Sunita, Sunita Malhotra, who is the owner and managing director of People Insights. 01:03 PG: She consults globally in strategic human resources, is an executive coach, and in addition is also a professor in several different universities. She has lived and worked in four countries, India, USA, Switzerland, Belgium. Has worked in large global organizations across five different industries and has extensive experience in sales marketing, HR, and of course, entrepreneurship. A fascinating panel and just the right panel to talk about the art of networking with a sense of community in mind. So let's tune into the conversation. 01:43 SK: The starting point for me has always been to remind people that even if they think they don't have a network, they do. Everyone has a network and that's the first starting point, is to get people to understand that networking is not this incredibly grand thing that only top corporate leaders can do. Networking is something we do all the time in our whole life. We spend our time asking friends and people we know where they would suggest we go and eat. We listen to other recommendations when we look for a doctor. We very rarely just pick up the internet and go and take the first name we find. We work... 02:24 SK: For everything we do in life, we work on recommendations, and so we all do have a network. The problem is most people don't realize it. And so the starting point for me is always, sit down and just take a deep breath and first of all accept and say to yourself, "You do have a network." Because you do. Everyone does. And it starts with people who are close to you, and it starts with your family, your friends... Just already that very, very close network is huge. And then you start expanding, and I like to draw it out as if there are a whole lot of rooms in a house, and in each room there's a group of people. 03:04 SK: There's one room that holds the family, there's one room that holds your friends, there's one room that holds the people you went to school with. The people you worked with. The people that you do sports with. Your neighbors. The people who work in the stores you go and shop in. The suppliers who you've bought things from, etcetera. And all these different places and rooms full of people coming from different walks of life, and that's the starting point to say, "Already how many people do I know?" Most people... A lot of people will say, "Oh. I don't really know anyone." But then you start going through these little rooms... In fact, everyone knows at least 300 to 500 people. I don't spend necessarily a huge amount of time with them. I do have a ton of people who I have something in common with. We all do. 03:57 PG: You're taking it already from the socialization point of view. You're already taking it, let's say, from a community point of view, to start from there. 04:07 SK: Because... Yeah. 04:08 PG: Start from your inner circle of the people who you already know, you're interacting with. It can start from family, from friends, community, teachers, schools... 04:17 SK: Yeah. Because networking is scary to most people and so the best way to start networking and start practicing on talking to other people about yourself and about what you want and about what you're looking for and about how they could maybe help you. It's a lot easier to start with people who are close to you, who are gonna be forgiving if you mess up in how you're doing it, because at first it's uncomfortable. But the giving side for me of networking is you make other people feel good. Put it the other way around. What you're doing for them is giving them an opportunity to feel way better. 04:51 PG: Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for that perspective. Sunita, what would you add to that? What are your insights on this topic?  05:00 SM: I'm gonna add to a couple of things that Susan said, but before I do that, I just wanna take a step back because we need to define what's the principal behind networking, because the word is used so often, and in some cultures it even has a negative connotation because... First, it's to demystify that it's not a bad thing. And for me, if I define the principle of networking in one line, it would be finding people who can introduce you to other people to build long-term relationships. It's not about finding a job, or it's not about getting, just getting. And that's, to link to what you said, Paola, that's a bit the getting and the giving. That has to be balanced for networking to be really good. 05:40 SM: Now having said that, I'd love to add two points to what Susan said, and add another one that I was reflecting on. The first is, absolutely, assume everyone is a network and you have one. And I can say that for myself, because when I opened my own company after many, many years of corporate life, I sat there and I went, "Oh my God, I haven't been networking. Who is gonna be my client?" And exactly what Susan said, when I started to do that, one after the other, I realized a supplier became a client, a previous employee became a client, and it just went on. Assume everyone is a network. And I love the analogy that Susan said about rooms. So go and just sit down and make a list on a blank sheet of paper. The other thing I would add is, it is about give and take. 06:28 SM: And it is lovely when you go to people and you start with, "I'd love your advice." Because there are very, very few people who don't like to give advice or like to help. And the moment you do that, to Susan's point, they get something, because they gave advice and you get something because you got something from it. So it's a win-win. And the only other piece I would add, before I turn it over to you again, Paola on this one, is, many, many times, what I found people don't do is they go into networking as if it's socializing. And for me, there's a difference, because socializing is a bit of chit-chat, if I may use the slang, but networking, you still do need to have a clear objective in mind. You need to know where you wanna go, why you're building this network, and it could just be to build a life-long friend and that's ok, because you know, many of my networks today, I have long-term friendships and mentors from there. Have a clear objective in mind. Again, assume everyone's a network, give advice and at the same time have a clear objective when you get there. 07:30 PG: I think that's very important, framing it, because there is a risk otherwise of mixing up terminologies and when you mix them up, there is a sense of a little bit confusion. Like what's ultimately the objective of networking? What's the ultimate purpose of it? Because there is a difference. If we have different languages, it's because it's probably to talk about different concepts. One thing is socialization, another thing is the actual networking. And I like what both of you said, in terms of well, the first case, the sense of different rooms. Explore the rooms that are already near you. Open them and see, from those rooms where else it could lead you. It's a little bit like seeing individuals as connectors, in this landscape. And to have an objective in mind, to say, "Ok. Well, what do I want from this conversation?" Is it to be able to have the next conversation with that same person? Or is it perhaps to get to meet somebody else thanks to this interaction?  08:47 PG: I'm wondering whether either one of you or both of you could share or can think of a particularly horrific networking situation which kind of gives a sense of what to avoid or what... What is it that you've seen, that you would like to tell people out there, "Absolutely, just stay away from that. Don't do that." Perhaps Susan you would like to chime in, I saw you were nodding. Sunita's nodding as well, but Susan started nodding first. Go ahead, Susan. 09:24 SK: OK. Well, yes. Having used or being involved in networking, mainly with people who are on the job market, most of my examples are linked to people who are searching for a job and the big, big, big no-no is, when I get someone who comes back and says, "Yeah. But networking's no use. I've contacted everyone and no one has a job for me." And I look and I say, "Wait a second. You contacted everyone and what did you say to them?" "Well, I asked them if they had a job." Well that is an absolute no-no. You will kill your entire network if you do that. It makes no sense, because the first thing you mustn't do when you're networking is scare the person in front of you. And if you walk up to someone and you ask them if they have a job for you, then you're putting them, in a position that the only thing they can answer is no. The person who just goes out and asks directly, and then gets a no answer, is not networking, they're begging. And it's useless. 10:29 PG: And it reminds me of something. Cause here we're talking about the world of work, and it's contextualized in terms of finding a job and looking for a job and networking your way so that you see what are the opportunities out there and connect with folks that may be able to help you or not, but when you were talking about those examples, I'm also reflecting. In our jobs as HR professionals, very often, we were confronted with those situations of people all of a sudden, out of the blue, "Do you have a job for me?" it is always finding balance between what your objective is but as well on how you go about the human relationship and the human relations. We do need to be mindful on how we go about this. But yeah, those are some mistakes... Those are some watch-outs, that it's not only for people looking for a job, but it's also individuals selling services or providing services to companies who are looking for clients, to say, there are ways and ways of going about it. Sunita, I give it to you after my long-winded as well, comment. 11:37 SM: One similarity, again to what both of you said and for me I just frame it in a different way. What happens many times when people go to the network, it's because they want something. And as Susan said, when you ask somebody for a job, they hit a wall. That's absolute a no-no. But imagine they go to the next step. The worst thing I've seen is people don't follow up. And then they don't follow up with the network because it's not only give, right? It's give and take and give and take, it's both. It's like, "Oh. Now I'm done with you and I don't need you anymore". And that will reflect. And that goes back to not being a long-term relationship. 12:14 SM: For me, that's a huge watch-out. I've seen many people do it and they do it often because, again we go back to the principle, why are you doing this? Are you doing it because you want a job or because you want to build this relationship? Because it's really about building the relationship. And sometimes I see it in here when we could do cocktail parties, and now I know there are virtual cocktail parties, but when you could do cocktail parties, the worst thing is when somebody comes to me and says, "Oh my god. My entire business card... " Which used to exist and probably still exists in some markets, "Is over. I've given out 300 business cards." That's not networking. 12:55 SM: And there for me, the very practical tip is, be genuine. Be authentic. If you happen to be in a physical face-to-face, cocktail party, go and find people that you will connect with right away, there's a chemistry. Chat with one or two people, because the aim is to build a long-term relationship. If you get one business card, that you know you're really gonna follow up, that person you can give something and get something and it's a long-term relationship, that's networking. What it is and what it isn't from what I've seen. 13:28 PG: And how much work is networking? Your experience. Susan, you've been supporting as an executive coach as well individuals in their career counselling and so how much work is into it?  13:42 SK: A lot. A lot if you want to... It's a very, very powerful way as Sunita was just saying, of building relationships and I really like that wording because it's not about just getting connections or business cards. That makes absolutely no sense, that's collecting and collecting is useless. You need to build the relationships but to do it properly you need to go back to again what Sunita said, you need to be clear about why you're doing it. The first thing, especially if you're on the job market is you need to have a pretty clear, even to understand your professional objective and be able to talk about it clearly. And you need to be able to talk about yourself clearly and all that in a very quick, short, snappy time frame so that you're not gonna have a monologue of five minutes to introduce yourself to someone. 14:36 SK: You need to be able to get a few words through quickly as to who you are, you need to get the person to understand what it is you're interested in. Now, all this is gonna take time and you don't necessarily immediately give everything out. Don't just make a phone call, get an appointment and from that appointment get a job. No. First you have to go through and take the time to look at your network and that, you've got contacts on your phone, you've got LinkedIn contacts, you've got Facebook contacts, you've got friends around you, you've got neighbors. If you want to just understand what your network is, that's gonna take time and then you're gonna identify, you're gonna have to prepare yourself and identify who you want to get in touch with and then you're gonna pick up that phone or send that email. 15:24 SK: And there'll be no answer and a lot of people are going to say, "Oh. They're not interested. Useless." No. As Sunita said, you follow up. The person you sent the email to, you're not their priority. It doesn't mean they don't want to get back to you if they didn't get back to you within the five minutes you sent the email. They didn't have time to get back to you and so you have to... Without harassing, but you have to pursue and so just getting an appointment with someone can take several trials and it can go over several days and weeks and it takes time. I used to encourage my candidates to spend as much as 80% of their search time on networking which is the research, making appointments, the understanding. Researching your market as well, who are you're trying to contact, if you wanna get in touch with someone you need to know who they are. Go look them up, don't just go in blind. Yes. It's a lot of time. But it leads to a lot of results if you're patient. But like when you plant seeds in a garden you have to water them. If you don't water them they won't grow. 16:36 PG: And also be wary of which garden you're planting your seeds in. Just make sure you're... First of all that you know what seeds to plant and then, to your point... 16:46 SK: You have to know your place. 16:46 PG: Yeah. You have to know your garden of reference first. 16:49 SK: Absolutely. 16:50 PG: You're not gonna be planting seeds everywhere and that's perhaps why there is the word, “work”, in “networking” because it is in this as well very different from socializing. It's very different from just going out and meeting people. It is from what I hear you say, even just before the act of networking, it requires careful research, being clear on what you're looking for and the type of people you want to meet and even connect with, so it's pretty broad, beyond just the opening the rooms, it's also knowing which rooms that might not be closest to you but which ones you want to explore, tap into and knock at their door. Which then would lead me of course to another question Sunita, although linked to length as well how much work does it require to network but it's also when do you stop? Imagine that you're knocking at a door and you would talk about follow-up. You knock again and maybe one day somebody opens but they don't let you in, and they say, "Oh. Come back." And so you try again, you come back, they still don't let you in. What would your thoughts be on that, what would you recommend folks to do and when do you stop knocking at people's doors?  18:28 SM: For me networking, I guess the word "work" implies somewhere the world of work since we are in The World of Work Podcast episode, that's one. And then the second is work and I think Susan being the expert has talked a lot about that. For me it goes back to, what is it you want, what is it you don't want when you're looking at your reference market? Because people, as I work with executives or even with younger generations now getting into the world of work is, "We'll do this, we'll do that, we'll do... " You cannot do everything so you need to almost have your target list of industries or your target list of functions, especially when you're more senior and doing executive coaching, you wanna change where they actually wanna go, what is it you want and what is it you don't want before you even start networking. Because that's gonna drive your objective and then... And the rest we've talked about, having a list, knowing where to go and also appreciating what is it that you can give because if I'm very practical, your first conversation with somebody you ask for their advice. 19:33 SM: Then you have a conversation, you talk about your skills, your competencies, you talk about the culture you like, you talk about... Ask them questions about what they like because many times companies, and then I think Susan, you probably know this even better than both of us do. They have roles that are created that are not all published out there, they're hidden jobs so to speak. You're talking to somebody, you see a skill set and you're thinking, "Wow. I can take this marketing skill and I can create something. We all know that, having been in HR, so startups especially and I deal with a lot of startups now, they don't have old school, job descriptions, etcetera. They talk to somebody, they say, "Wow. That's interesting. Let me introduce you to somebody else and then to somebody else." And you can have loads and loads of conversations, and the way I, again, look at it, is you have to love it. 20:25 SM: If somewhere you don't have the belief that you wanna build genuine relationships, you want to give and take, it's a long-term process. It's like a sales process. You're selling something. You may never get the business, but it doesn't mean that they're not gonna talk to somebody else and say, "Hey. You know what? I love this individual. Why don't you go and have a chat with them? It's just so much fun talking with this person." Then guess what? For me, the answer to the question point blank is you never stop knocking. You just decide without harassing somebody, "Have you knocked on the door, but they're sitting by the window? Then you go and you find a way to get the window open." 21:04 SM: And I'm talking about, is it LinkedIn? I'm talking about virtual networks. Is it Facebook? Is it Instagram if you're talking about social media? Or are you approaching it totally differently? Then you take a step back and you say, "Well, am I doing something wrong? Can I do something different? Is this really the right contact or am I chasing up something that doesn't make sense?" And sometimes, it can happen that somebody's not interested. Then see what you can offer them. You don't end the network, you offer them something. You offer to give them something and you move on. Eventually, they'll come back to you and say, "Hey. You know what? You offered us this. Let's give you this." That's how I look at it, and that's been my personal experience. I have loads of people that are not my clients. They've become friends. Some of them, I get my guest speakers who are coming and teaching my younger students, they got something, I got something. Never stop. 22:03 PG: And to the listeners out there, now you know why I decided to... [chuckle] To invite Susan and Sunita to this podcast because they are great examples of individuals who not only love to network but know how to do it and know how to do it very genuinely. But you've also worked like me in technical environments, and you've also worked like me in, well, scientific or engineering and what are the profiles of the individuals? They're in it for the science. They're passionate about what they do in terms of the science and perhaps a little less passionate about the human interaction and relation. At least that has been my experience having worked with many engineers or scientists in the past. They don't necessarily enjoy the art, let's put it this way, of networking and connecting with the human, which by definition would be unpredictable, in the sense, you may knock the door, but you don't know. It's not a scientific formula. You don't know exactly how the person may or may not react. What would you recommend they do?  23:21 SM: I can just tell you what I've done with some... And worked with some of the Research and Development people that I work with. Yeah, you're absolutely correct. There are different types of individuals in the world, thank God. For me, the word "net" is important for them and not the work, if you will, because the concept of “net” again is the connection with things, with people, because this is not necessarily only human interaction-related. It's about discovery. It's about exploration. And I know when you ask us to reflect, you are asking us to think about movies. And the movie that came to my mind was Alice in Wonderland. And that would be a movie that I would re-use the analogy with the scientist. It's about exploration. It's about experimentation. It's like, "Ooh. What am I going to find there? How am I actually gonna reach that individual?" It's more about the technical aspects of reaching the individual. I've tried it with a few. It seemed to work. 24:19 SM: Then actually saying, "Oh. You need to reach that person because you wanna do it." It's the dynamics of getting there and the exploration and what you might discover in this new world, and now I'm speaking to really pure research people that I worked with because that's a sell to say, "Hey". And then saying, "What can you get from that person that might add to what you're doing?" It's always about the purpose for me, for them and going deeper in the purpose because my experience has shown that initially it's hard, but once you get the Research & Development people to reflect... [music] 24:55 SM: They become incredible at it because they go so deep. They go so profound. They're even better than some of the commercial people that I've worked with who just do the social butterfly thing which doesn't work. I don't know. That's just my experience. I'm not saying it's easy. [music] 25:14 PG: That doesn't sound like it's too difficult either as long as you enjoy it and you allow yourself to explore it. And social butterflying is ok, I guess, but it should be really targeted to have an objective in your mind. We do love marketing folks, by the way, don't get us wrong, just like we do love all kinds of profiles. Make sure you tune into the Part Two of this episode on networking. We will continue a little bit more into detail in terms of the different profiles and how people may leverage their strengths actually in their networking, depending if they're more technically-driven, analytic, logic or if they are more relational-driven. And of course, we will cover many other topics. Tune in to part two. All you need to do is subscribe and give us your email address and we will give you access to the private part of The World of Work Podcast. Until the next time, as always, take good care. 

00:00 Irina Bouras: It is a digital identity, and the way that you are leveraging that and strategizing around it is definitely important in your job search as well. 00:11 Paola Granati: Well, for those of you like me, who thought you only had a human identity, think again, you actually also have a digital one, and if you don't, you better make sure you do especially if you're looking for a job. So today, we will be talking with Irina Bouras about social media, digital media, digital etiquette, and no wonder I decided to call this episode, let's get digital, but before we do, let's get to know Irina a little bit better. She's a business partner with over seven years of experience, started her career in the life science industry. She's currently working for a company called Skills Alliance, they're based in several parts of the world, but she is operating out of the Swiss office and they specialize in providing recruitment services mostly to companies in the field of medical technology and biotechnology. And by the way, to all of you out there working in the healthcare industry, in the medical field, in the pharma, in the life sciences, in the essential work area, a big, big, big thank you for everything you've done and everything you continue to do. Thank you. 01:33 PG: So now I think we're ready to kick this off and get digital. 01:37 PG: I'm particularly happy to have you Irina for several reasons, and I think also the audience and the listeners will be very happy because you bring as well the recruiters perspective, right? You being a recruiter, social media, I would imagine is the bread and butter to a great extent of what you do to be able to source the right candidates, at least in the initial stages. And the second reason, I'm particularly happy to have you is, for our listeners, is Irina is a millennial, so the millennials are definitely more talented, let's put it this way, in the current technology and how to use it at best, also because it's just part of the daily life in a way, so perhaps there's a more fluid definition between professional and personal social media is just a natural new language, perhaps. Irina, I'd be curious to, of course, know what is it that inspires you to be part of this podcast, and in this episode in particular. 02:52 IB: Thank you very much for the warm introduction Paola, I really like it, and you are completely true, 100%. This is definitely something that I spend a lot of time on, and social media is one of the tools that for us recruiters is very important at the moment, not to mention the fact that the millennial age group, let's say, just to give you a bit of a stat. The majority in this age group actually found their first employment through social media. I would say around 84%, according to studies, and I'm not saying it, study say it, that is definitely the preferred way of engaging with a new employer because there's more transparency and things become a little bit more personal from the very first introduction on social media. 03:43 PG: It's also from a candidate's perspective, let's put it this way, that it just becomes more personal because the company is also more visible, the leaders working in that company, the hiring manager is also more visible because he/she is probably active on social media, to your point, you can put a face and a more human look and feel to that process. 04:03 IB: It's a two-way street, basically. It's a platform also for the employer and the job seeker, because the employer can market themselves, can bring up their story, their values, make it more visible and give people a sense of who they are, so they already know what the company is all about before they even have an initial conversation, a virtual coffee or an interview. And from the job seeker side, obviously, they will be interested, who are they going to communicate to? What is it that this company is all about? Who is it that they're going to report in to? What is the team like? And it's very easy to search that information up on social media, much easier than it was in traditional ways, and as I mentioned, the majority of job seekers are definitely engaged in social media these days, particularly millennials. 04:58 PG: Great, but you know what, the other generations gotta catch up too, I mean, like my generation. 05:00 IB: I will teach you some tips and tricks. 05:04 PG: Exactly, so I appreciate that because hopefully our audience is broad enough and we'll have broad demographics, which to your point, it's important, right? To make sure that we will also speak to the right audience, but for the millennials who already know, but also for the previous generation who may learn, I do think this is gonna be a valuable conversation, 'cause there's always something to learn. So, Irina, one of my first questions is, we understand the importance of having, more and more of a personal brand and, as a candidate, now I talk about a candidate position and being clear, what you stand for, what's your value proposition and for the younger, let's say the ones who are starting in the job market, it may be a little bit more complicated to start building a brand. It also depends on your experience and your expertise, etcetera, but that said, it's important to have a sense of, what do you stand for? So let's assume we've done all of that, we've done our value proposition, we know what we want, we know what our passions are, we've laid out a little bit the... We've mapped out the market. Then we need to be out there and we need to be visible, as I was saying before. So what, before we go into the tools, right, what is your view, what's your definition of a well-thought-through social media strategy?  06:31 IB: I'm glad you asked this, Paola, and we definitely touched on the subject of the wide spread of social media nowadays. I do have to say that almost half of the world's population is engaged with at least one social media account as we speak, so yes, it is part of our day-to-day schedules and it is part of our identity somehow, digital identity. So on... 07:00 PG: Digital identity, I like that. Actually, I'm not sure if I like it, but it is what it is, a digital identity. Let's add one more identity. 07:12 IB: Yeah, it is a digital identity, and the way that you are leveraging that and strategizing around it is definitely important in your job search as well. So to define, to come back to your question, and define a strong strategy for digital pursuit, let's say for a job, especially in this job market where a lot of... There are a lot of job seekers, particularly because of the COVID-19 situation that we've just been through and was unexpected, so the majority of people that were not necessarily in a position where they were looking for a job before are now in a completely different game. So starting off from having a profile, basically, on one of those accounts, I obviously relate to LinkedIn the most because part of my day-to-day activity is related to LinkedIn. It's a professional platform where the majority of my candidates come from, actually, and what I'm looking for is particularly for them to have an updated profile, to have that digital identity strategized somehow so I can see that they're including the fact that they're open to new opportunities, they're communicating it to me in a way in which I can see it on this platform without even speaking. So I already know, okay, you're looking for a job, let's see what is the next step. What type of job are you looking for? What is your why? What is it that you're interested in?  08:53 PG: Yeah, sorry to interrupt you on that, because, again, for our audience, often have the question in companies, for individuals who maybe are actively looking but are currently employed, right, so they want to keep it, of course, discreet and make sure that their own colleagues in the position/area, right, are not aware that they are looking for a job. So when you are actually clicking on "yes, I'm looking for opportunities," on that LinkedIn profile, who can see that? Who has access to that information?  09:34 IB: LinkedIn offers us a possibility to actually exclude this information from your current network, so from people that are employed in your current company. And that would be communicating with the external possible audience, so it will keep it confidential. In terms of your approach inside of the company, it's perfectly normal, and I am... I know that this is definitely a topic that is important for most of the people that are employed at this point in time, but they might not be happy for whatever reason it is. So that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't go out there and create other opportunities for yourself, or at least gain clarity. And LinkedIn offers us this option of actually clicking on "open to new opportunities," but hidden from your current connections inside of your organization. So you can stay, rest assured that... 10:38 PG: Rest assured, guys. You can relax and keep open those opportunities so people like Irina are aware that you are available for new opportunities, right?  10:50 IB: This is how we come in here, basically. As a bridge and as an external, we... I personally strive myself as being neutral in this process, so I can actually relate the majority of people that are looking out there, and that don't necessarily have all the information that they need in terms of defining if a potential career path or potential position or potential company is the right one for them. And this is why I'm here, to try and clarify that for them, with giving them more information about the position, the company, what they should be expecting in terms of an environment, and basically what would be the steps for them to pursue a career in a particular place... 11:41 PG: So you were saying LinkedIn is a must. It's one of those, even if you don't like social media, you know what, you have to have that strategized, let's say, profile, ideally with a picture, ideally with a good summary of what you represent, what you stand for, right, because it is a tool which is used, looked at, right?  12:04 IB: This is my Bible, I have to say. 12:06 PG: It's your Bible... 12:08 IB: 70% of the time that I spend on social media, and as part of my activity I do spend quite a lot of time on social media, but if I were to give you a number, 70% of that time is on LinkedIn. It can be on various different platforms as well, but I consider this as the most relevant in terms of professional approach. We also have various different platforms that I'm sure we are going to go through in terms of what they consist of and what is their scope, but to come back to LinkedIn and the way that you can present your identity, your digital identity, I would definitely say that it's a good place to start from. Companies are already using it quite a lot, so they are presenting their digital identity through LinkedIn as well, and the information that you can take from this platform is mutually gratifying. 13:07 PG: Yeah, and I think that's an important point, right? Because I do think social media, one way or the other, tends to democratize a little bit more that process, if I may use this word, meaning, it's more of an equal-to-equal type of conversation, supply and demand. But you have a lot of access as a candidate as well to a lot of information. And by the way, companies not only on LinkedIn, they're on websites, but there are other tools out there that companies really keep an eye on because they're more like “The Tripadvisors”, allow me that word, of which companies are actually considered to be good employers or not, as employees themselves tend to provide comments as well about their employers. For example... 13:55 IB: Absolutely. 13:56 PG: Yeah. 13:57 IB: It's all out in the open these days and social media is helping us achieve that clarity. From the job seeker's perspective, the way that I see it, and the way that I engage with my candidates, I definitely see them a lot more interested in looking up on the likes of Glassdoor or Kununu. A lot of reviews on the companies that they would potentially target as their next employer just to see, "What exactly is that Tripadvisor review? What are people saying about it? Or how is it to work there without having worked there necessarily?" They're gathering a lot of information to be prepared when they actually see or discuss with somebody face-to-face, what that company is all about, and the same applies to organizations that are looking up candidates on LinkedIn. The likes of LinkedIn or Xing for us in the DACH region here is very relevant. You can actually, as a candidate, you can add to that social identity because you also have the function of including testimonials from your managers, from your colleagues, from your former clients, suppliers, just a short note. It works exactly the same as a Tripadvisor review. It's the opposite, is the mirror to the Glassdoor review of the company, you can have the same exact thing for the candidate on LinkedIn. 15:27 PG: And what other tools would you say do you use? So LinkedIn, 70 or so percent of your activity. Right?  15:39 PG: Xing. 15:40 IB: Xing, yeah. 15:40 PG: Xing. It is not Sing but Xing. 15:43 PG: But... It is very specific to a geographic area. What other tools would you say that are a bit more global or that extend beyond geographies that you look into also to check coherence? When you were talking about digital identity with DACH and guess we also talked about the importance of being cautious of how you show up and what... Just to be sure that what you're showing of yourself is really what you want to show, and that should be coherent as well in the different platforms where you may be active in. What would your comments be already on other platforms that you may use in regarding the sense of coherence of your brand?  16:33 IB: This is actually a very important point, Paola, that I'm really glad that you brought up because the coherence is definitely one of the things that we would be looking at. There are various platforms that are available to us out there and that I personally have been using myself. So apart from the obvious LinkedIn, professional platform, and Xing precisely dedicated for the DACH region for career opportunities as well and German-speaking cultures, it would definitely appeal to that culture the most. I would say there're others that can complement them. So moving on from there, I think Twitter can definitely be one in which you actually can gain that coherence and that digital identity to confirm what you've been applying already on LinkedIn, Xing, and so on and so forth. Here locally, let's say it doesn't have so much of an appeal, I haven't seen a lot of people using Twitter, and not a lot of my candidates are active on Twitter. But if you are actually engaging with a larger organization or an international organization, this also can show that you bring that global mindset in the game because Twitter is definitely a platform that is used across continents, across geographies, cultures.  18:04 IB: It's pretty much for everyone and it gives you the possibility of transparently speaking your mind which can also show up when you're potentially interviewing for an international role. This is one of the things that I would suggest for those people that are working across geographies. Then, we also have other platforms that we can go to, and I instantly can think of Facebook that I personally have grown up with. This was a major platform for me. This one's for everything, friends, colleagues, co-workers, pretty much all of the informal communication that we could think of. Sort of a... The telephone back in the day. Facebook has become for us this sort of platform, and it also offers a lot of unique settings because being it's so informal, you actually have the possibility of connecting with friends, co-workers, family, and have a lot more clarity, let's say, and a lot more of a deep and personal communication. And you can also use this in your job search because you will have a lot of people that you would be connected with on Facebook that will know other people in different communities, potentially also leading to a community that's someone from your desired employer. 19:38 PG: So what you're saying is actually use Facebook as your community network type of thing to also get some leads perhaps, right, or some good contacts that you can then further follow up through the more professional, let's say, platform of LinkedIn. Is that a bit more of a millennial perspective compared to my generation?  20:04 IB: That'll be a millennial perspective, yes. 20:08 IB: This is what we do. And I have to say from my experience so far, of seven years in working in recruitment and helping various different individuals progress in their career. I do have to say the majority of them tend to be a lot more motivated when they're receiving a recommendation from somebody they're already connected with, ideally from the close circle, so friends, family and so on and so forth. The motivation is increasing because it is a word of mouth recommendation and you tend to trust more, your close circle than you would a third party or somebody that you've never been engaged with. So it's definitely a place to create a community, and it's definitely a place to ask for recommendations when you're considering a particular position. You can gain clarity, even if it's on the role or the company or the scope of this position, ask somebody in your close circle that is already in this position. It's definitely a tool to network, but it's also a tool to gain clarity on your next steps. That's how I would define it. So use that community to actually gain more clarity for your own job search. 21:23 PG: Okay. Well, there you go. Facebook is an important tool also for that. 21:31 IB: It is. It's also a possibility to engage in a community that is looking for the same thing. So let's say we have a topic in mind, we have been speaking about design thinking before, right, that we're both interested in. What I would do is I would create a chat or a group in Facebook and gather around other people that are like-minded, that are interested in this topic and that can share information on this topic, because some of us might be beginners. For example, for me, this is a new topic. Some of us might have more information about it and they're already applying it in their current positions, so why not learning by doing this together instead of just focusing on getting as much information from the internet, which is a lot, to be fair. Just to filter through that, it's a lot of time and a lot effort from our side. 22:28 IB: So again, recommendations from people that you can count on will definitely be advisable in this case. So Facebook, I would use it in this particular option. It can also be an option for LinkedIn. So this is not exclusive to Facebook. I would definitely engage in groups of like-minded individuals on the same topics and the same industry that you are interested in. In my case, I would actually follow companies in the life science sector, I would follow individuals that are leaders in the life science sector and get engaged on topics that are of mutual interest. This also creates a much better connection between the people than just reaching out to somebody and asking them for a job. It doesn't build that relationship. 23:21 PG: Exactly, and that's super important to build the relationship around some sort of affinity and not purely a transactional type of exchange. Perhaps there's also the sense of building community around common interests. If we go back and you put your recruiter's hat on, is there that curiosity, as well, to check out where these individuals are in other platforms? Or do you leave it at LinkedIn and then you take it to the other stage, which is the CV or you contact them, etcetera, etcetera?  24:01 IB: I have to say, the other day with one of my colleagues, we've definitely run a search on some of the people that we are engaging with on Google. Google gives us all the connections, and if you do search your own name even on Google, you will realize that all of the accounts that you registered on social media will come up. So obviously, that's your digital identity right there, and it can act as a CV without necessarily being a traditional CV. So obviously you will see that people have a coherent digital identity if they also stick to the same story on Facebook and on Twitter, potentially on Instagram, which is growing rapidly in users at the moment, so it really... It really depends on what you want to achieve. But I would definitely say that, Yes, I am one of those ones that stays behind the computer and is looking up people's names. 25:07 PG: Well, I don't know about you, but after this conversation with Irina, I strongly recommend you check your digital identity. I checked mine and I'm not sure to what extent it's as coherent as it could be. That said, I hope you enjoyed this part one of this episode of Let's Get Digital. Should you want to continue to listen in, to tune in, to plug in, all you have to do is subscribe. The more we are, the Wowier we know it's gonna be. So thank you for listening, tuning into the World of Work podcast, putting that WoW back to work for all of us. Until the next time, take good care. [music]

[music] 00:03 Karin W: What's uniquely yours?  00:05 Paola G: Isn't this a wonderful way to start this episode of the World of Work podcast or the WOW, as we continue to explore, what are some tips; what's some advice we can provide for those who may be looking for a job at the moment. In the previous episode, it was all about how to manage transitions and how important that is. And now we go a little bit more into the depth and into the detail on what to do, what are the can do's, you should do's, and absolutely the must-do's when you're ready to face the job market once again. And figuring out what's uniquely yours sounds like a really really great place to start and to consider. 00:45 Paola G: But before we do that, a quick introduction regarding the guest speaker of today's episode. So I'm joined by Karen Wierinck, she's a global HR business leader in the pharma and the biotech industry. She has lived and worked in the USA and various locations across Europe. And in the course of her almost 30 years career, she has led, lived through, and experienced herself downsizings and reorganizations numerous numerous times. And I've asked Karen before actually kicking it off, why is it that she wanted to take part of this podcast. 01:21 Karin W: Because I have seen a lot of this. I have lived it myself, I've experienced it, either because I was being relocated or I lost my job. I've led consultations, and I think over the years, I may have had hundreds of conversations with people in this particular context. So, that's why I think there's probably some lessons that I would love to share with the audience. 01:56 Paola G: I thank you for your time and for your contribution, which I'm sure many people will value. Because, the purpose is actually to make these conversations as real as possible as well, and as authentic as genuine and as practical, so that people can walk away with some gems and some inspirations of particularly what they can do in these moments if their job has been impacted and there's no one magic solution or one magic bullet. But what would you say to those individuals like right now, who have lost their job, are struggling and don't even know where to start, what would you tell them? What would you recommend?  02:48 Karin W: Maybe a little bit of a step back; what I will bring to the table will be a combination of these experiences, and having lived them as HR, as a manager, and I'll weave all of that into hopefully what are some pragmatic suggestions. What I would say is, it's important that you take stock, what is it that you bring to the table? What are the achievements that you have made over the course of a period of time? What's the impact, and can you quantify that?  03:28 Karin W: How can you express that? It's important that you start thinking about what your unique experiences are, your unique skills, where is it that you're at your best, what might be the circumstances for that? What is it that you've learned? What are the lessons you have accumulated? What is it that you're proud of, and what is it that you want to do next? And this one maybe might be hard, because if you're finding yourself on the crossroads, then it might be not entirely clear to you what it is that you want to do next. 04:08 Karin W: I've done some coaching certification, and a tool that I find useful is that you can say yes or no to certain things. So you can brainstorm a little bit with yourself and say, "What would I want you say yes to in terms of tasks? What would be some of the things that I would say no to? What about the culture, the manager, the context? So that you start building what that next horizon looks like a little bit from the ground up. And if it's very clear to you what it is that you want to do, then, you're maybe already a step further ahead in the process, right?  04:54 Paola G: Would you see this as well an opportunity to... Like you were saying before, like to step back and really reflect as well of course on your past, what you've done, what you've achieved, what your passions are, and also, like you were saying, you're looking in the future, determining what is the yes and what's the no? What are those things that, exactly because of the past, you say, "Now I'm... I... Even if it may be a difficult situation economically... " 'cause that's another important component, right? If your job has been impacted then that has an impact on your finances, of course, I think that does require perhaps a different reflection and conversation. But it does sound like it's a thoughtful process, it's not an immediate type of answer. 05:41 Karin W: Yeah. Well, I'm like... People are different, and, some need more, some need less time. Depending upon how you are feeling as a result of the process, where are you in it? And, does it come as a relief, or does it come as a shock, or, is it something that you're grieving over? The answers might be different, right? I do think that how much time you need will be dependent upon all of that. But, I do think that, or I very strongly believe and suggest that it's better to go with what is right for you, than to go with the first that presents itself. I think there's a very big difference there. 06:37 Karin W: Is it what you want? Is it the company that you want? Is it the context that you want? The industry… that would be... Yeah, because if you're in your sweet spot, whether it's role, whether it's context, it will be so much easier for you on the job, as well, right? And it will be so much more WOW, with so much joy. 07:02 Paola G: Right, that's what it's about exactly, exactly. And how would you say people can find that sweet spot?  07:11 Karin W: I had a manager at Pfizer and I was struggling at Pfizer because I had come from a very different... Culturally, very different organization. His name is Phil Sleeman and if Phil would listen to this, he may recognize this story. Phil had an incredible knack of helping someone find both what they're good at and what helped them, or what would make them trip up or what their own personal hurdles were. One of the things that Phil talked about is, what's uniquely yours? And I always... I love this expression. What's uniquely yours? And try to find what that is. What's your value proposition? In HR, I will sometimes ask when people come and interview, "Why should I hire you as opposed to Liz or John who are maybe also very qualified? What is it that sets you apart?" So, I think to reflect on that, to ask people that know you well, or that have insight, but also to really think about when are you in flow? When are you at your best? And to think not only about the what of that... What is it that you do? But the context, the circumstance... I think that that could be helpful. 09:02 Paola G: Sounds like we owe him some copyrights on that expression. [chuckle] What's uniquely yours, wasn't it? And oh, we could have him as well as a guest one day in these WOW moments. And I completely agree with you by the way. When we're on the other side, recruiting or interviewing candidates for roles, of course, we do look into the qualifications, we do look into the experience, we look at all of that, but we also do look at differentiation, what is it about John versus Mary versus Steve versus Laura that really makes them unique in their own way and most appropriate as well for the context within which somebody's being hired. Because to your point, and I think perhaps that would also be an important call-out, is for individuals not to feel frustrated if... They are unique, everybody is, they have an amazing value proposition, they think they're the best ever for that job, and yet they don't take it, they don't get it. And often it's probably because of the context, or probably because of the culture or the fit may not be the best fit. What would you say to that, to the importance of the right fit, like you were mentioning before?  10:30 Karin W: Critical. I'm like, it will be the difference between doing a job and enjoying a job. Between being and thriving in a way, right? As HR, if it's someone who is on paper perfect, but not the right fit, I would recommend not hiring, because it's gonna be a short-term proposition, and as a candidate, an employee, it's the same. I'm like, you're entering to a degree into a marriage, and if already from the start, it doesn't click, then it's gonna be short-lived. So for me, it's critical in every way. And you alluded to something else a little bit in your question Paola, and I thought you were gonna ask me something else, what if you see a job and you really want it and you don't get it? Then how do you recover in a way? And like and if this happens a couple of times, how do you recover? I thought you were gonna ask me that. [chuckle] 11:51 Paola G: That is a very important question, absolutely. Yeah, it's how do you manage these frustrations which do happen along the way, that things may not pan out the way you want them to. What would you say to that actually?  12:03 Karin W: And this has happened to me, and I really wanted that job, and I probably wanted it too badly, because I think there's also something as being too eager or come across as too desperate, so I would always say, whatever the situation... If this would happen to you and you're so eager and you so want it, try to find some balance before you go into the interview and don't overwhelm the counterpart, in a way, right? So yeah, I'm like, this sounds maybe funny, but for someone like me, that could happen. So how do you then recover from that? In my case I got a lot of support from others, others being both colleagues, both family, who knew, who could feel that I was deeply disappointed and helped me. 13:15 Karin W: And I had to grieve because it was like, "Oh, I really wanted it." And I allowed myself... I had two hours of crying and I allowed myself to try and get it out of my system, but I also used it as a moment to really think about, Okay, I thought it was really right and I really wanted it, and what was or what wasn't because clearly, I felt it was right. But the other party didn't. And what was it that if I would do it over again that I would do differently. Didn't I do enough of my homework, were there certain things that I didn't approach in the right way, or was it simply not the right fit, in which case then truly it's for the better, right? But I use it also as an opportunity to really (yeah) reflect and think and then get ready for the next... 14:30 Paola G: Exactly, for bouncing back, and I'm wondering, did you use that as an opportunity not only to do your own reflections, but also to ask for feedback because sometimes when things don't go the right way and then we get the bad news saying, "Sorry, we didn't choose you. and sometimes we don't take that opportunity to kind of say, "Well, why not... Could you tell me the three things you'd liked about me or the three things that perhaps would have worked really, really well in this role and the other three things, or that one thing that really made the difference?" Did you take that opportunity to ask the question... Would you even recommend that to some candidates ask for feedback, if they get a negative response?  15:15 Karin W: Yeah, the answer is yes. You take the opportunity to ask for important feedback, you may not always get as much as you would want... That's maybe... That's been my experience. And a little bit leading to as HR, I would then say look, and like, I do think that you have the responsibility to give that feedback, right, and if you care about an individual, a candidate, also as part of building your brand for that organization, I think it's your responsibility to give feedback, but it's not always that you get lots of or very deep feedback in a way, so... And sometimes, sometimes it's circumstantial, right? And then that's just the way it is. But the answer is yes. Something else that came to my mind, if you're entering into a process and before there is a decision on: are you progressing in the next step? What I have always liked as an HR, that I practiced as a candidate as well, because I'm kind of linking the two things that, that is that after a conversation, I also share some of my thoughts on what I have perceived, right? What are some of the things that I've learned through this interview, through this engagement? In what way could I make a contribution and what are maybe some of the things that I'm curious about? And then to express at the same time, either my interest or if you're not interested, that you also express the why not. Because it could go either way, right? But I would also recommend that in the course of the process. 17:25 Paola G: Very valuable, definitely very valuable. And especially having this double perspective of being an HR as well, and a candidate at the same time, I do tend to think we are very privileged in HR, although sometimes the function may not be perceived the way we would like it to be perceived, let's put it this way. But it has given us as professionals as well, valuable inputs on what not to do or what to do, because we see in others our own reflections sometimes of our own mistakes, or what we can learn through others. If we stay a little bit on the HR topic, and you put your HR hat on as a professional, and then as an executive HR leader, once again in these moments of uncertainty and... There are lots of rumor talks as well in the moments of uncertainty. So let's say there's a rumor mill that starts spreading in the company about redundancies, or restructuring, etcetera, would you, as an HR now, as an HR professional and as a leader, would you recommend that these employees speak up or speak to their managers or even go to HR, would you recommend that they open up and kind of talk about it with the company, allow me that word, as opposed to only the corridor talks, would you?  18:48 Karin W: I'll answer it from two sides. So as HR and as a leader, I would always say your responsibility is to continue to build trust, to be worthy of trust, and that comes with openness and transparency in my book. So, assuming that this is an environment that you work in, where this is indeed a value set that is being applied, then I would say to the employees, yes, right? I'm like, open up, raise your questions, bring them forward. If this is a good intent, caring organization, hopefully, you will get straight answers. Of course, you're an adult, then also expect to be treated like an adult, I would say so look for the clear answers and hopefully you'll also get the clear answers. Now, if this is not the situation that you find yourself in and there is no trust, and it may give you more stress, then don't do it, because then what's the value? I would say, right?  20:08 Karin W: But normally, I would say yes, towards HR, but also towards the manager, so even though I say yes, be open and transparent, I would also say err on the side of the positive, because unless things are clear, decided, but if it's not, if it's in a situation of discussion, then don't go to doomsday scenario because that also doesn't help anyone. So it's that balance between openness, transparency, treating someone like an adult and erring on the side of positive that I would say to them. And as the HR... As the employee, so let's now assume that Laura comes and opens up the conversation, then I would say to Laura: Don't only go asking questions about what does this now mean? But also maybe come a little bit more prepared with: What is it that you could do if not this, then what else could there be; in what way would your skills be transferable?  21:38 Karin W: This could be either thoughts that you have yourself, where you're asking for confirmation, if they would see it similarly, or where you're asking for support because maybe you would like your manager or HR to connect you in a way, shape or form, or because you're keen on participating in projects or whatever. So I think, yes, your purpose hopefully, when you open up that conversation is dual. So it can be a purpose of only one hand clarity, but on the other hand, also being proactive to start thinking ahead of what this could mean. And I guess now with Corona and so many different industries experiencing huge pressure in a way, right? It may also be around in what way could my role become different? Or in what way could there be other things that are more important? So to start, thinking ahead, and to open up dialogue around that, I would say, if I have an employee like that in my organization, I would also find that hugely valuable that they're proactive and they are thinking ahead. 23:01 Karin W: I would think, "Okay, that's someone that has a lot to offer," and I would begin to then say, "Okay, in what way can I support that individual either here or outside of the organization?" So it's good business to be proactive, right?  23:15 Paola G: It absolutely is good business to be proactive and to take leadership of your life as opposed to be led by it and by the many events that impact all of us at some stage, and maybe at multiple stages of our lives too. Should you be interested to listen to part two, you already know to subscribe either at the transistor website or my website, Paolagranati.com and you'll have access to the second part of this episode. And by the way, a couple of reminders, if you've subscribed once, you don't need to subscribe twice, you're really part of the community, and secondly, feel free to forward the link to those who you believe could benefit from these listening sessions. Thanks as always. Till the next time, take good care. [music] 

[music] 00:02 Susan Kaye: If you don't let it heal, you won't get better. 00:08 Paola Granati: Welcome to this episode of the World of Work podcast, the WoW. I'm Paola Granati, and today we will talk about how to best manage transitions together with Susan Kaye. And as you just heard her say, healing is an important part of that process. It's an important part in order to be able to move on to something new. Before we kick this off, a brief introduction of today's speaker. 00:32 PG: Susan Kaye is a senior HR professional with extensive experience in all areas of the HR function, having worked both in a large Fortune 500 corporation, as well as a boutique, outplacement firm, she really has this unique combination of very strong career coaching and counseling skills together with an in-depth understanding of the strategic value of people in organizations as well as of HR. 01:00 PG: A dual British-Swiss national, she has lived and worked in the UK, Mexico, Switzerland and the US, and has traveled the world for both business and pleasure. I started this conversation by asking Susan to help us better understand what we typically mean by transitions in the world of work. 01:19 SK: First of all, transition means we're going from one state to another, so we're going through a change process, and, that change generally is... If we're talking in the employment area, is from an old job to a new job. Now that can be a transition and a change that's taking place voluntarily; it can be a choice, a personal choice, it can be an internal change within a company, and then you're transitioning from one particular situation in one company to another situation in that same company. 01:57 SK: It can be a transition from one company to another, again, as a choice, but very often when we're using the terminology in the career counseling arena, we're most often talking of transitions that are taking place in situations where employers have made the decision for a whole variety of reasons that that person's job is no longer necessary, and that that person needs to leave the organization. And then we talk about a career transition process. And it's in that case, a transition process that has a starting point which is not voluntary or at least, not decided generally by the individual it concerns. So it's a change from one state to another, but that's basically provoked by a decision that the individual it concerns doesn't control. 02:56 PG: Yeah, even if individuals may know that something's coming, it always does come as a... 03:02 SK: As a shock. And I've... Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And by... When... When it's not a personal decision, I.e., the individual saying, "Well, I want to move into another job, into another role, I am taking this decision," when that decision is taken by someone else, fundamentally, the individual's environment is rocked and completely turned upside down. And even in situations, one you've just mentioned, people could be assumed to have expected that it was going to happen, because maybe the economy is down, maybe the firm is not doing well, maybe their boss doesn't like them; there are 15,000 reasons why this could happen, it doesn't stop the fact that it is always a shock. 03:50 SK: Even when people expect it, that shock will have different impacts, depending on whether it's actually a relief, because there are situations when the individual comes out of it, saying, "Finally, it's done, now I know where I am, even if I don't really know where I'm going but I know what the situation is." But there are lots of situations where it's not a relief. It's a shock, it's... It's... It's a total catastrophe, their world is falling down around them and they need to be able... The individual needs to be able to manage that. 04:30 SK: And the reality is, that the first most frequent reaction is going to be shock, which can put people in a total non-reaction mode, where they look as if they haven't really heard what you've said to them, and then that is going to... They're going to move from there, and they're gonna move in different ways, depending on their personality and depending on their history and what they've already lived through. Some people are going to move very quickly into an angry zone, some others are going to try and shrug it off and move into a zone where they say, "Oh, I'm fine." Others are going to be in total denial, they're going to be trying to negotiate their way back in. So, there are... And all of these different reactions can be simultaneous, they're practically simultaneous for some people, everything's happening at the same time. 05:28 SK: So that's why it is such a complicated time to deal with because... Because people are reacting and don't feel in control anymore. And so, the key message that needs to be able to go through, to people in that stage is first of all, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be upset. It's... It's okay to want to vent about a decision that one wasn't consulted about, and that one just fundamentally disagrees with. It's okay to have that, but it's not okay to spend the next six months complaining about what happened and adopting the approach of a victim that has no control. In the moment, when you're informed, you have no power and you couldn't be in control, but as time passes, you will move on if you can accept that it's not the situation that was forced upon you that dictates how you should react to it. You are still your own person, and you have tools and means, and abilities and skills, and competencies that you can... Your resources you can use to stand back up on your two feet. But you need to accept it's going to take a little bit of time. 07:07 PG: And it's going to take time, but not too much time. That's also what you were saying. It's like, there's a moment of grief. Let's put it this way. There's a moment where, allow yourself that moment of anger or frustration or... Before you get to the acceptance. But you need to make sure that you move on to a next state that allows you to look at it with a resourceful perspective, because, ultimately, I think people tend to underestimate the fact that this negativity, because these are emotions, anger or whether it's anger, whether it's frustration, whether... I would also imagine, yes, grief are emotions that are part of who we are as humans, of course. They tend to drag us down. They're not necessarily boosters of forward-thinking and even of looking into, "Oh, okay. What other options can I have?" 08:14 SK: Yes, absolutely. But if I can come back to the notion of time, this will... When people ask me, "How long is it going to take for me to feel better about all this?" There is no one answer. Because everyone is unique and people are going to react differently. But there's a comparison that's a useful comparison. When you are told from one day to the next, that your job is over, that your career is over in that company and that you're gonna have to get back on the market, and maybe you haven't done that in 20, 30 years, or maybe you've never done it, then it's extremely scary. What you're in fact, facing is a similar situation to what you face when you're riding on your bicycle and you slide off the road and you break your leg. You break your leg, it hurts, you go to a doctor, you get potentially an operation or a cast or whatever it is you need. 09:11 SK: You are going to inevitably accept, because it's a broken leg and it's very visible, that you're going to have to let time pass for it to heal. You don't heal a broken leg in two days. It's going to take whatever it is, six weeks or something like that. That is a fact. The difficulty with when you lose your job, is that you are in fact going through a similar process, but it's a mental process. Something has broken. And if you don't accept that that something needs to be taken care of, and therefore you need to allow your body and your mind to react to that and allow it time to heal, you're going to be doing like the person who sprained their ankle and goes right back on their (bicycle)... Or... If they can, running around and they're just going to make it worse. Because if you don't let it heal, you won't get better. So how do you heal? Well, you get help. Fundamentally, it's the same as when you break your leg. You don't expect that you can resolve your broken leg on your own. 10:22 SK: Well, same thing. You lose your job, you've had a huge slap in the face, it's something very violent that's happening to you in terms of your personal... Your self-confidence, your feelings about yourself, what you think you're worth. So I generally recommend to people that one of the first things they should do in the early days is actually go and seek out just their general practitioner and just talk to someone in the medical world about what they're feeling. They're probably not sleeping well, they're probably having nightmares, they're maybe, they're probably feeling very angry and maybe feeling violent. A lot of things can be happening. Well, there's help out there. And talking to someone, to someone you can trust, someone who's neutral, who's not emotionally involved in what you're living through. So I'm saying your doctor or someone else, a third party. Talking to your spouse, of course, people are going to do that. But the spouse is very, very, very involved emotionally, and that can create another set of complications. So yes, you talk to your spouse, but you can't expect your spouse to be the one who's going to be carrying you along this way. 11:43 PG: That's an important part too, which is the ripple effect of actually the moment you do lose a job. Of course, it impacts you, but it impacts the ecosystem as well within which you live. So that's your family, that's your close friends, your close relationships. And everyone is different. To your point, everybody reacts differently. The fact of the matter is most people will know, or most people definitely in your family or will sense that something has changed. And it's interesting what you're saying to seek out more of a third party, a neutral type of individual who is also qualified. 'Cause one thing is, somebody who listens to you, which is really not the point. It's really not the point. The point is... To your point, when you break a leg, you've got to find somebody who's going to fix it for you or who's going to help that leg heal, so reaching out to somebody qualified in this area is really important. What would you recommend those who say... Not necessarily they're in denial but that they say, "I don't need... I don't need to do this, I don't need to go through this process of grieving, I'm just angry and I'm just going to get back into the market, get on with my life. And it's fine, it's everything is good." 13:20 PG: Have you ever encountered those situations in your profession as an executive career counsel? And let's not forget, right, in many cases, egos are also impacted, and by egos I mean the sense of identity, individuals who may have had very important leadership positions and all of a sudden are asked to leave. Their sense of worth perhaps is also impacted. I'm curious to hear your perspective on that and what have you seen. 13:56 SK: A lot of people will try and hide or push back their anger and say, "I'm moving on. No, I'm fine." And as you say, very often at pretty senior levels, because it's very difficult for most of us to admit that we have been completely demolished in our own estimation of our worth by what's happened. We no longer believe we're capable of doing something or doing it properly. And to mask that, how do you mask your lack of confidence generally by overly talking about how good you are at something and that there is no problem. So how as a consultant, I would work with someone who's like that. There's not much point at first in confronting someone in the early days about, "You're wrong, and that's not how it's going to work and you're going to sink anyway, and you're going to... " There's no point because that's not going to help them. 14:58 SK: So you help them in different ways. You help them by making them work through what they've worked on, what they've achieved, how they can talk about what they've achieved. And progressively, you pick up on sentences, on things that they will say inadvertently as you go through the conversations with them and you ask them things like, "How are you sleeping these days?" And when they say, "Not really, yeah, I've been up since three this morning," and you say, "Well... " That's when you sort of going to start opening the door about... "Well, you do realize that what you're just going through is, it's not easy for anyone, most people don't sleep well after this." 15:50 SK: So you use what they reluctantly, but inevitably will start communicating to get a little bit more into the whole self-care, "Take care of yourself, you have been hurt, there's no shame in admitting that you're hurt, there's no shame in being depressed, anxious." And it takes time. Some people, it's going to take a long time, others, it's going to go faster. It's very... To me, that's very... It's linked to two things, one is how the communication came through to them, and the other one is how well they are surrounded by friends and family. And those two components are absolutely key in this process. 16:47 SK: If the news was delivered in a human fashion, then moving on and accepting and being able to turn that page over is going to come easier because they were still treated with respect, and they didn't lose their self-respect by losing their job. When the actual discussion was a bad one and unfortunately, it does happen, then not only is the person angry, but they've been basically told they're worth nothing, and that makes it... And they're not respected, and that makes it very difficult to move on. The same about family members and friends. If you go home and your spouse's reaction is, "Oh my God, what did you do to get fired?" That's going to be very complicated to manage. So your surrounding is hugely important. 17:55 PG: Exactly, so what you're saying about you must have done something wrong to... Why you and not somebody else, or why were you amongst those? And unfortunately, sometimes family with all that... With love and in good intentions, there is that risk of kind of pointing the finger and making you feel even more insecure because maybe it's something you've done as opposed to a situation that may have happened to you. Well mind you, of course there are differences, right, as well, if it's been a performance-driven issue, although that opens up a whole other debate which we will not go into... 18:38 SK: No, we don't want to go into it and I understand, at the same time I think it's very important here just to say that I always try to reinforce with people, they lost their job because for a number of different reasons, the company decided that that job should not be filled by them or that that job needed to disappear. So when people say, "I got fired," I say, "No, you did not get fired. Your job was suppressed," or "your job was transferred to another country" or there're a whole lot of other reasons, and when you talk about performance, in the whole career, in the 15 years I've been counseling people who have lost their jobs, honestly, the real pure true performance-related firings, to use that horrible word, are very few and far between, because there are so many other parameters that come into... A good performer in one place is a bad performer in another, etcetera. 19:45 SK: So yeah, we're not going to go there. But the fact is that what helps people move on is when they start understanding that even if they have lost their job, they have not, from one day to the next, become nothing from a professional standpoint. They're still professionals, they've got tons of skills, of competencies, of knowledge, of experience, it's all there, it's just not associated now with a company, but that doesn't mean they're not professional. And that is something that a lot of people have trouble focusing on because their focus is, "If I don't have a job anymore and I got fired, I'm no good, and I'm not worth anything." And the whole point of what will get people back onto the right track and the positive track is getting them to the state where they say, "Hey, I'm good at this and I like it, and I can do it," and then they can move on. 20:48 PG: And that is ever so important, learning how to move on is a positive mindset, and turn the page and start new. So that was the end of first part, of the first part with Susan Kaye. We are also going to be moving on to part two, should you be interested to continue to tune in, to listen to the end of this episode, feel free to subscribe and you will have access to the private part of the podcast. Thanks for listening. Looking forward to the next time. 'Til then, take good care. [music]

Paola Granati officially kicks off the WoW and the FIRST SEASON which is all about the Current World of Work. Tune in to get more information on what's this WoW all about anyway and why she decided to create this platform notwithstanding the very mixed emotions linked to this project.