Podcasts about rlds church

Joseph Fielding Smith: evolution was not something he thought highly of. The son of Joseph F. Smith and grandson of Hyrum Smith, was a prominent figure in the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As an apostle from 1910 and later Church President, he became known for his strong defense of traditional doctrines, often clashing with those who sought to reconcile faith with modern scientific and academic thought. https://youtu.be/8Kq1TVQBQtE Don't miss our other conversations about this book! https://gospeltangents.com/lds_people_historical/joseph-fielding-smith/ Joseph Fielding Smith Evolution One of the most famous conflicts involved the theory of evolution and the age of the Earth. Smith staunchly opposed the idea of an old earth, particularly the notion of human-like creatures or pre-Adamites living before Adam and Eve. His core objection wasn't simply to evolution itself, but to the idea that there could have been death before the Fall of Adam and Eve. Smith believed that death entered the world because of the Fall, and if death existed before then, it would undermine the necessity and efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. This principle of no death before the Fall was central to his arguments. This perspective led to direct clashes with contemporaries like James E. Talmage and John A. Widtsoe, who were generally more open to scientific ideas. The most notable dispute involved B.H. Roberts's book manuscript, The Truth, The Way, The Life, which attempted to reconcile a very old Earth and the possibility of pre-Adamites with the Genesis account. Roberts proposed that Adam and Eve were the first humans with souls, not necessarily the first biological humans. As a member of the church's publications committee, Smith absolutely rejected Roberts's ideas, protesting their publication to the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency. While this conflict brewed behind the scenes, Smith publicly denounced the idea of an old Earth and pre-Adamites in a speech. In response, Talmage gave a talk endorsing the possibility of an older Earth, highlighting some public disagreement among church leaders. Ultimately, the First Presidency chose not to endorse either side and requested both men cease public conflict on the issue, preventing Roberts's book from being published at that time. Smith, however, outlived many of his contemporaries and later published his own book, Man His Origin and Destiny, which strongly attacked Darwinism and the higher criticism of the Bible. Family Trauma Smith's career as a defender of traditional beliefs was significantly shaped by his upbringing and early experiences. His father, Joseph F. Smith, was called to testify before Congress during the Reed Smoot hearings. During these hearings, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS), led by descendants of Joseph Smith Jr., saw an opportunity. Richard Evans, an RLDS apostle, issued broadsides accusing the LDS Church of corruption, denouncing Brigham Young for originating polygamy and blood atonement, and claiming the RLDS Church was the true successor to Joseph Smith. This became a "family feud.” Joseph F. Smith was infuriated and asked his son, Joseph Fielding Smith, to refute Richard Evans. This charge launched Joseph Fielding Smith into a career of research and writing, focusing on apologetics – the defense of religious beliefs. He published pamphlets refuting Evans, arguing that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith Jr., not Brigham Young. This pamphlet feud led to exchanges in newspaper op-ed pages and solidified Smith's path. He began working in the Church Historian's office during this time and soon became Church Historian, serving for decades until he became Church President in 1970. Fight with Academics His long tenure as Church Historian meant he had significant influence. Unlike contemporaries like Talmage, Widtsoe, Joseph Merrill, Adam Bennion, and B.H.

We know the RLDS Church has its own version of the Book of Mormon, but what other churches have their own? What about the first Gold Book of Mormon and LDS Paperback edition with the golden angel Moroni on the cover, a Reformed Egyptian gold cover, and many other editions? Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/CTFvsUPBdPo Don't miss our other conversations with Ryan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/robert-messick/ transcript to follow Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission   transcript to follow Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Among many of those Nauvoo Saints who did not choose to follow Brigham Young and the Twelve Apostles into the mountains of Utah, there was an emerging hope that someone from the Smith family would step forward and begin a reorganization of the Church Joseph Smith Jr. had established. In 1851 a soft reorganization began and built up to that culminating moment of 1860 when the eldest son of Joseph and Emma Smith, Joseph Smith III, stepped forward at the age of 28 and was ordained president of what they referred to then as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or RLDS Church. Over time their method of succession in their presidency developed upon a different set of criteria than that of their Utah-based cousins, as did many of their practices, policies, programs, and governing principles. In 2001 the name of the RLDS Church was changed to Community of Christ, and today this is the second largest branch of the Restoration movement.  In this episode of Church History Matters, Casey and Scott sit down with Andrew Bolton, a friend and member of the Community of Christ who served in their Council of Twelve Apostles from 2007 to 2016. Together we take a deep dive into the details of how succession works in this movement, while also considering some key similarities and differences between our two Restoration branches today. For show notes and transcript for this and other episodes go to https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org/church-history-matters-podcast/   

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made an historic aquision today purchasing the Kirtland Temple, several Nauvoo properties, The Joseph Smith Translation manuscripts, and several other landmark items for $192.5 Million from the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS Church). Steven Pynnaker, who seems to have broken the story, joins me with some inside information on the transaction and the financial need of the Community of Christ to sell these properties. Website - www.cwicmedia.com   

Today's bonus conversation discusses the recent purchase of the Kirtland Temple by the LDS Church and explores the history and significance of the temple. The purpose and design of the Kirtland Temple are examined, along with the departure of the Saints from Kirtland. The conversation also touches on the splintering of Mormonism and the purchase of the temple by the RLDS Church. The episode concludes with final thoughts on the Kirtland Temple and why – for Christians – it's no longer necessary.--The Unveiling Mormonism podcast pulls back the curtain on Mormon history, culture and doctrine. Join us for new episodes every Monday. Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org/mormonism.Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at podcast@pursueGOD.org.Donate Now --Takeaways:The Kirtland Temple, the first temple of the LDS Church, was recently purchased by the LDS Church for $190 million.The Kirtland Temple holds great significance for Mormons as it is a holy building where Joseph Smith received multiple revelations and experienced spiritual manifestations.The Kirtland Temple was a preparatory temple and differed from modern Mormon temples in terms of its design and rituals.The RLDS Church, now known as the Community of Christ, purchased the Kirtland Temple in 1880 and held ownership until the recent purchase by the LDS Church.The purchase of the Kirtland Temple by the LDS Church signifies the restoration of a historic and sacred site for Mormons.

Few people in the LDS Church know that Emma Smith married again. This time it was a non-Mormon man by the name of Lewis Bidamon. Dr Mark Scherer details how they met, and how Emma raised Lewis's child from an affair! We'll also talk about her grandson, Fred M Smith, who caused a lot of ripples in the RLDS Church. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/HGMEGa2_jiY transcript to follow Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

Patrick McKay is an apostle for the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB.) He'll discuss breaking away from the RLDS Church, and his attempts to unify the Restoration Movement. We'll talk about how he uses the Book of Mormon to do that. I'll also ask him about archaeological, DNA, and other problems with the Book […]

We're continuing our conversation with Bill Russell, a former professor at Graceland University. We'll talk about RLDS views of apostasy as well as the breakup of the RLDS Church following the 1984 revelation on women & priesthood. We'll also discuss Jeff Lundgren, a man who committed mass murder in Kirtland, Ohio based on the story […]

The RLDS Church has historically claimed Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy.  We'll talk about Joseph Smith, III's views on the topic, as well as modern-day beliefs.  Mark:  So, the argument they have, there's a book that was written in 1900 that's the most comprehensive book on the RLDS part of a narrative. It's written by […] The post RLDS positions on Joseph's Polygamy (Part 2 of 10) appeared first on Gospel Tangents.

When thinking about founders of the Reorganization, names like Joseph Smith III, Emma Smith, or William Marks often come to mind. Today, historian Mark Scherer introduces us to Jason Briggs, a key historical figure who laid important groundwork for the Reorganization. Mark discusses his mission trip to Salt Lake City as well as what eventually drove Briggs away from the RLDS Church. You can contact Mark with any questions about church history at his email: mark@markascherer.com

Community of Christ has a complicated history with the practice of polygamy. On today's episode of Project Zion Podcast, Apostle Lach Mackay shares that history and how the church gives space for analysis and open dialogue. The content of this interview was presented at Sunstone Symposium in August 2020. Host: Karin PeterGuest: Lach Mackay

The Church of Christ based in Independence, Missouri has made several attempts to reconcile with other restoration churches.  We will talk about one breach with the Church of Christ (Elijah Message) and then successful reconciliation.  We will also talk about other attempted reconciliations between the Church of Christ, the RLDS Church, and the LDS Church. […] The post 3 Church Reconciliation? (Part 6 of 7) appeared first on Gospel Tangents.

A momentous court battle raged in Missouri of the temple lot between the RLDS Church and the Church of Christ.  Both claimed to be the rightful successor to Joseph Smith’s church.  While the LDS Church in Salt Lake City also claimed to be the true successor to Joseph Smith’s legacy, they didn’t want the RLDS […] The post Brighamite – Hedrickite Alliance (Part 4 of 7) appeared first on Gospel Tangents.

Following Granville Hedrick’s return to Missouri, the RLDS Church eventually made their way to Independence as well.  But even though the Church of Christ had purchased the land legally, the RLDS Church felt they should be the true owners of the Temple Lot.  Court battles ensued.  Jean Addams will tell how these bitter battles turned […] The post Dispute Over the Temple Lot (Part 2 of 7) appeared first on Gospel Tangents.

In our final conversation with historian Mel Johnson, we will discuss early Mormon pioneer John Pierce Hawley's conversion to the RLDS Church.  Find out how shocked his congregation was when he announced it to them! https://youtu.be/6TUUKWDnpcU Mel:  In early 1870, John has come to the conclusion that he wants to join with the RLDS Church. John Larson, a RLDS missionary, over near Mountain Meadows/Hamblin area, reads in the Herald, the RLDS newspaper out of Illinois, that (1) John Pierce Hawley has written a letter to Joseph Smith, III, saying that “I rejoice in the doctrines of Joseph Smith, Jr, as did my father, and I wish to join with the RLDS Church.” Larson reads that, and he's a former LDS elder out of New Harmony on the other side of Pine Valley Mountain out near Fort Hamilton on the road to Cedar City. He reads this, and he comes galloping over to Pine Valley and Grass Valley, and John writes, "I was convinced that he was as crazy as people thought he was, but I became convinced also that he had the authority to baptize." So, he baptized John and his family, George and his family, and then John, as first counselor... GT:  Is this his fourth baptism now? Mel:  There will be a total of seven. GT:  Seven, oh my gosh. Mel:  He stands up in Pine Valley Ward, as the first counselor and preaches his farewell sermon to a very startled audience. Only one historian of Pine Valley will write about John, one of William Snow's, granddaughters, I believe, says, "And John Hawley, the first counselor apostatized."  That's the full story.  Yet they were among the first settlers, Presiding Elder, held the second anointing and the second endowment, quite a guy.  Erastus Snow heard.  He comes galloping up from St. George, won't let John talk because he's too vile of an apostate.  He lectures the two Hawley brothers for three hours. Then he asked George if he has anything. George says no. Then Erastus Snow rides away.  John and George bundle everything up, and they travel up to Salt Lake to catch the train to western Iowa. Check out our conversation…. After Mormon pioneer John P. Hawley rejected polygamy, he rejected the LDS Church and joined the RLDS Church.

On this episode, we chat with Melvin C. Johnson, author of Life and Times of John Pierce Hawley: A Mormon Ulysses of the American West. We discuss Hawley's following Lyman Wight to the Mormon colony in TX, his conversion to Brigham Young's LDS Church in Utah, accusations of John's involvement with the massacre at Mountain Meadows, John's eventual split with the Utah church over polygamy, Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrine, and blood atonement, his joining the RLDS Church and later testimony at the Temple Lot trial. “An essential read for those interested in studying the competing strands of the Mormon Restoration movement in mid-nineteenth-century frontier America.”—Richard E. Bennett, Professor, Church History and Doctrine, Brigham Young University Listen through your podcast app by searching for the Greg Kofford Books Authorcast, or watch this interview on YouTube at youtube.com/gkbooks. Q&A with the author Free Sample Preview Life and Times of John Pierce Hawley: A Mormon Ulysses of the American WestBy Melvin C. Johnson$24.95 paperback$34.95 hardcover228 pages       Download Subscribe in Pocket Casts           

The LDS Church recently made changes to their temple endowment ceremony.  Rumor has it that the Cutlerite endowment has changed very little since the death of Joseph Smith.  We'll continue our discussion about Cutlerite temple practices with Steve Shields. It appears they believe women hold priesthood in their temple ordinances! https://youtu.be/8nA9mj_bp3s Steve: So, that building is, in all intents and purposes, it's a temple and it would resemble the Kirtland Temple model except Kirtland had no font. But, the upstairs room for the priesthood on the second floor, they weren't necessarily doing rituals there, but they did some washings and anointings upstairs on the third floor in the attic level. And so, on the second floor of the Cutlerite buildings in Minnesota and Independence, that's dedicated as a holy place. They call it the upper room work. They don't use the term endowment. They do know what that means because we've talked about it with them. But, I do know. They've told me this, that women are ordained as high priestesses in the celestial church, not in the outer church, not in the public church. They have no priesthood in the public church. GT: Oh, so women have a temple priesthood, but not an Ecclesiastical priesthood. Steve: Exactly. Yeah, that's right. That's the extent of my knowledge about that. A few years ago when… GT:  That's interesting, Michael Quinn, in my current interview, just kind of said the LDS have the same thing. Jonathan Stapley said, "Well, we don't want to call it priesthood." But Quinn wasn't nearly as careful on that. Steve: Yeah. Well, I'm in the Quinn camp on that issue. We'll also discuss a break off from the RLDS Church called the House of Aaron. Steve:  The House of Aaron is based at Eskdale, Utah. And they used to be called the Aaronic Order or the Order of Aaron. Morris Glendening was the founder, promoter of that. In the recent 10 or 12 years, they've been having lots of conversation with Fred Larsen and the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. John Conrad, who is the leader of the House of Aaron, his father was Bob Conrad, who was the chief high priest successor to Morris Glendening as chief high priest. John has gone out to Independence many times with folks their church. They've shifted a lot since Glendening's times in the '40's. They always said they were not Mormons and yet all of their members had been Mormons. Have you heard of the House of Aaron before?  Check out our conversation…. Steve Shields says Cutlerites have female priesthood, and we talk about House of Aaron in Eskdale, Utah Don't forget out other conversations with Steve! 238: Fundamentalists and Cutlerites (Shields) 227: Conspiracy Theories:  William Smith, Samuel Smith, James Strang(Shields) 226: Sidney's Unsung Role in Restoration (Shields) 225: Steve's Shields Own Divergent Path 224: Who Owns the Temple Lot? (Shields)

Steve Shields was raised in the LDS Church and attended BYU.  So why is he now a member of the Community of Christ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJq4ul9ymB4 Steve:  I was really interested in church history and I started reading these books and pamphlets that were not approved by the general authorities and my mother warned me that if I kept reading that kind of stuff, I would lose my testimony and leave the church. She wasn't happy that she was right. I don't see it as losing my testimony. Did I leave one organization for another? Yes, but I think my faith in Christ is stronger than it has ever been. I'm not saying that I didn't have faith before. By going this different route, I began to focus more on what I think matters most. Steve:  And history then, didn't become the main focus of my faith, but became a main interest. That sort of--Oh, do I dare use the word tangent? Tangential to my faith. GT:  We like that word. Steve:  Yeah. It was a big deal to make that move. By the time I had been on my mission and, and done that, I had some pretty out of the box ideas about God. Steve discusses his reasons for changing his religion, and we discuss the RLDS/Community of Christ hierarchy.  What are the similarities and differences with the LDS Church? GT:  I know John Hamer was recently called to be a Seventy. Steve: He's a Seventy, right. ... GT: He would be more like an Area Authority? Steve:  He's like an area authority. Yeah, that would be. Yeah. Our Seventies are more like Area Authorities. Now, there may be some official expenses that they're provided for travel and things like that. And I don't know. Every jurisdiction, every mission center of the church and mission centers for us are like areas for the LDS organization. GT:  I've heard that they've been compared to a stake. Steve:  Well, but stakes are different from LDS, have always been different from LDS stakes. It's not been uncommon for us to have 30 or 40 congregations in a stake. Steve:  And the stake presidents were full-time world church appointees. So, stake looks and feels like it might be the same in both, but it really wasn't because of the size. So, I really think the mission centers replaced stakes, as we tried to reduce the number of levels, so we used to have the general officers and then the fields. Each apostle had a certain geographical area. Then we had stakes and regions and districts. And so, we tried to compress all of those stakes and regions and districts are now all mission centers and we reconfigured that. Check out our conversation… You may also want to check out our previous conversations with John Hamer and Community of Christ apostle Lach MacKay! 120:  Start of RLDS Church & Mormon Schisms Tour (MacKay & Hamer) 119:  Surprising Word of Wisdom Insights from an Apostle (MacKay & Hamer) 118:  Mormon Followers of the Prophet James Strang (MacKay & Hamer) 117: Alice Cooper's Roots in Lively Mormon Schisms (MacKay & Hamer) 116: Different Succession Claims:  Other Mormon Groups (MacKay & Hamer) 115:  Strange Kirtland Temple Ownership Problems (MacKay & Hamer) 114:  Comparing LDS & RLDS Temple Worship (MacKay & Hamer) 113: A Seventy & Apostle discuss myths & Kirtland Temple (MacKay & Hamer)

Join me, Colleen, as I fall in love with the Community of Christ! I have a lovely visit with my friend Karin Peter, President of the 5th Quorum of the 70, in a church that you may know by their old name, the RLDS Church. She gives me some history on how the Community of Christ … Continue reading "MHH41: Interview w/ Karin Peter, Community of Christ Quorum President"

[paypal-donation] https://youtu.be/oxfm1l1Xae0 We're about ready to finish our conversation with John Hamer and Lachlan MacKay of the Community of Christ and do a Mormon Schisms Tour!  In this next conversation, we'll talk about how confusing it must have been to live following the death of Joseph Smith. John:  You might have a branch where at a certain point, you've heard Joseph Smith has been killed.  You are very sad.  Brighamite missionaries come through.  They say the Twelve are now in charge and things like that.  Everyone says, “Hey, now we got it.  We've read about that in the newspaper and this kind of thing.”  Then, a couple of months later, somebody from Voree comes with the Voree Herald and they explain how the Twelve are in apostasy, and this and that, and why all of the prophetic gifts that prove that Strang is the successor, and they are like, “Oh, we're Strangites now.” There isn't anything in particular that necessarily happens for the branch.  So like I say for the Hedrickites, they are one of five, maybe, of these branches that are in a cluster around Bloomington, Illinois.  I think probably at some point or another, they will have been affiliated with Strang, but at a certain point, maybe when he “affiliated,” whatever it even means.  Strangite missionaries will come through there, and that's one of the reasons why maybe they didn't gather and go west. We'll talk about the founding of the RLDS Church. John:  This is the origin of the Reorganization.  So the branches start to pray about it.  They fall back on individual personal revelations for the individual congregations, the pastors.  They start meeting together.  As they are thinking about it, William Smith has a church in the meantime and William Smith has been promoting the idea of lineal succession.  There has been, (I think I mentioned a while ago), there's the sense that Joseph Smith's posterity, somebody, one of his sons is going to be the successor or will emerge as the successor.  They start to regather these branches and the form a conference organization, which is a loose structure.  There's no corporate entity here still. So they pass resolutions together in conferences where they say they are going to wait for one of Joseph Smith's sons, probably Joseph Smith III to emerge to receive the prophetic calling and to accept that mantle.  So when that happens in 1860, he comes to a conference of the New Organization, what becomes the Reorganization and what becomes Community of Christ, then that becomes something that all these little branches start to get really excited about.  Fairly quickly, then that Reorganization draws from all the different tradition churches, including people who had gone west who are dissatisfied with what was going on under Brigham Young in Utah. It turns out that some other Mormon schismatic groups are contemporaries of Joseph Smith III.  John talks briefly about several of these churches, "There's more –ites; that's hardly an exhaustive group so I don't mean to be leaving anybody out.  They are very interesting."  He'll briefly discuss founding of the Hedrickites, Williamites, Josephites, Cutlerites, Whitmerites, and their relationship to the RLDS Church.  Lachlan MacKay will also tell when and why the Kirtland Temple changed from a bluish-gray color to the current white color it is today.  It's going to be a fun conversation. I hope you check out our Mormon Schisms Tour!

Have you ever heard the myth that Alice Cooper was a Mormon?  It turns out that's partially true.  Historian John Hamer and Apostle Lachlan MacKay of the Community of Christ will talk about some lively Mormon meetings, and we'll talk a little bit about Alice Cooper as well. GT:  No, this is great.  We've talked about Sidney Rigdon and some of the others. John:  Oh, by the way, even though his church atomized, there is an extant Rigdonite-tradition church, and it's called the Church of Jesus Christ.  It's headquartered in Monongahela, Pennsylvania.  A lot of times people, outsiders, call them the Bickertonites.  They don't particularly like that.  It's names after William Bickerton who was an early leader of that church after Sidney Rigdon.  So that is in the Rigdon tradition and it is sometimes seen as the third largest of the extant branches from 1844 with Brighamites being the largest, Josephites, or Community of Christ/RLDS Tradition being the second largest; third-largest being Rigdonite or Bickertonite branch, so they are a very interesting group. They are headquartered in Monongahela, Pennsylvania.  They have kind of a Kirtland-era church where they do feet-washing.  They have their little pentocostal—they do everything by the spirit.  They don't write down the talks.  You have to do it by the spirit, just like praying by the spirit…. GT:  Oh, wow. John:  …and other interesting things like that. They were the first restoration-tradition church to have a black apostle back in the 1920s. GT:  Oh, wow. John:  So there is all kinds of—who is the—Alice Cooper.[1] Lachlan:  Oh, his dad. GT:  I'm glad you mentioned that. John:  Alice Cooper, I'm trying to remember his name.  Alice Cooper's is named, I don't remember, Nephi or something like that. GT:  [Ether Moroni Furnier]. John:  Yeah, so he was one of the presidents or one of the apostles.  His grandfather was like one of the apostles.  [Alice] is not like an active member.  He was raised in the church.  I don't think he was actually even baptized.[2] GT:  You said they were Pentecostal.  Did they speak in tongues? John:  That's what I meant by Pentecostal. I don't mean modern Pentecostal. GT:  Oh, not modern Pentecostal. John:  No, not modern Pentecostal.  Yes they speak in tongues, but not like a modern Pentecostal church.  I didn't mean it that way, but in that same way:  Pentecost in terms of speaking in tongues. GT:  A person moved upon by the spirit, would they get up and start speaking just strange [language]? John:  I haven't actually been to a service where they've don't it.  Have you been to one where they've done it? Lachlan:  I drove by but wasn't able to stop. John:  I went to a regional conference and it was really amazing.  I don't remember, but nobody actually spoke in tongues during it, but it was the liveliest Latter Day Saint tradition service I have ever been to.  Some traditions, churches are kind of notoriously boring within the tradition.  I won't point fingers, but this was the opposite of that. Because at any given moment, the person who is presiding would say, “Brother Lach, do you feel like you can come up and speak to us on tithing?” {Lachlan shrugs} John:  And so you would come up and give a speech.  Do you feel to do a musical number?  I mean literally there was no program and you don't know when it's even going to end.  At a certain point I'm thinking, “What are they going to call on me to do?”  I've got to think what I'm going to say.  {chuckles}  It's very active and lively.  It was really great. We'll also talk about differences between the LDS Church and RLDS Church.  What's the difference between a pastor and a bishop?   Check out our conversation…..  (Don't forget to listen to our discussion about people vying for leadership following Joseph Smith's death.) https://youtu.be/RML2dXnvvCw Options Monthly PDF : $10.00 USD - monthly

[paypal-donation] In our next conversation, we'll talk about differences in temple worship between the LDS Church and the RLDS Church.  (Note:  The Community of Christ has been historically known as the RLDS Church.)  Community of Christ Apostle, Lachlan MacKay and John Hamer (a Seventy) discuss the differences in temple worship between the two churches, and how the temple has evolved. Lachlan:  Sure.  So Kirtland in the 1830s, it's a house for public worship with a strong emphasis on empowerment, both spiritually and intellectually.  Two-thirds of Kirtland Temple was classroom space.  You would worship in the temple on Sundays, and you would go to school six days a week.  Kirtland High School met on the third floor.  Students ranged in age from six through adults, so it was the center of their community life. My sense is that in Nauvoo the same was going to be true, but you did start to have to have, I believe, a receipt saying you were a tithe payer in order to gain access to the baptismal font, and they didn't welcome non-members in the temple in Nauvoo while they were performing ordinances, but it was still a public building.  That receipt, I think, is what many generations later would become the idea of a temple recommend. ... John:  This idea for the LDS tradition of having what constitutes temple work and everything like that, almost all of this is extremely different than what existed in Kirtland.  There's no font, like you say, in the Kirtland Temple.  That's something that begins in Nauvoo.  The same thing, the Endowment ceremony, and things like that is taking place after Joseph Smith had been exposed to Freemasonry and things like that so that also isn't taking place, the whole liturgy and things like that in Kirtland. I have a chart.  I'll give it to you so you can splice it in if you want for the videos, but essentially where you take the spaces that exist, you've taken Kirtland, like what Lach is telling you about, the spaces of worship, the space for learning, the space for order, the church offices and things like that, you can see where they have that same major portion of the space is devoted to that in Nauvoo, but then there's also the space for the baptism of the dead in the basement and there's a space for endowments in the attic. Then you go to Salt Lake, all of that is preserved so there's a big solemn assembly hall and things like that in the Salt Lake Temple.  There are the offices for the apostles and things like that, but then when you get to the little temples that are in the LDS tradition, which might be what most Mormons in the Utah tradition are exposed to, they don't have any of those things that are from the Kirtland period.  All they have is the basement and attic part of the Nauvoo Temple and that's their whole experience.  So they go and that's their temple experience.  They go to Kirtland and say, “What did these Reorganites do to the temple?  It's not even—it's so alien.”  That's what Kirtland is!  But anyway, we're each honoring different parts of the heritage. We'll also talk about baptism for the dead as well as vision of Elijah in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple.  It's going to be a very interesting conversation.  I hope you check it out (as well as part 1 of our conversation)! https://youtu.be/rLfMRzvEUUk [paypal-donation]

[paypal-donation] I'm excited to start 2018 two amazing guests: a Seventy and an Apostle of the Community of Christ: John Hamer and Lachlan MacKay. I'll let them introduce themselves. Lachlan:  Sure, [I'm] Lachlan MacKay, a member of the Council of Twelve in the Community of Christ.  I oversee the northeast field in the U.S. which is Michigan and basically Kirtland to Maine to Virginia.  I have functional assignments including Community of Christ Historic Sites.  I oversee historic sites and lead the church history and sacred story team. John: In terms of the history work that I do, I primarily have studied the broader Latter-day Saint tradition churches.  Like I say that would be all manner of –ites, so the Strangites,[1] especially but also Cutlerites[2] and Hendrickites[3] and everybody else, Josephites,[4] our tradition.  I'm a member of Community of Christ.  I serve as the pastor of the downtown Toronto congregation.  I've been called to be a Seventy.  I'm a Seventy-designate.  The ordination will happen in October.[5]  I am also a past president of the John Whitmer Historical Association (JWHA), which is essentially the other –ites, or the Community of Christ's version of the Mormon History Association (MHA), those kind of things. We'll be talking a little bit about LDS myths. GT:  One of my favorite blog posts was, it's been a decade now, the Top Myths about the Community of Christ for Mormons. John:  Oh yeah, the Top 10 myths, I don't remember exactly how it was, the top 10 Mormon myths about the Community of Christ or something like that.  That one we ended up doing a couple of podcasts with that. I think we did one on Mormon Expression that was on that same topic. One of the ones for the LDS Tradition, one of the blogs posts that gets the most traction is for whatever reason, sometime in your curriculum every spring you do the Milk & Strippings story.[6]  Then suddenly this essay that I've written that has been read more times is on the Milk & Strippings story because every May or something like that it comes up for some reason.  I don't know why. We will also talk about the construction of the Kirtland Temple.  (Don't forget to check out our previous discussion with Dr. Mark Staker and Dr. Richard Bennett!)  Check out our conversation! https://youtu.be/Agt2SKt9M6U [paypal donation]   [1] Because so many churches founded by Joseph Smith have similar names, sometimes it is easier to name the groups by their next founder.  For example, the Strangites have a similar name as the mainline LDS Church.  Their church is officially known with slightly different capitalization and punctuation as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (vs. Latter-day Saints), and were founded by James Strang following an angelic visit.  We will talk more about them in a future episode. [2] Cutlerites were founded by Alpheus Cutler and are officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ. [3] Hedrickites were founded by Granville Hedrick and officially known as the Church of Christ or Church of Christ (Temple Lot.)  They are sometimes referred to as the Temple Lot Church.  We will discuss them in a future episode. [4] Josephites are better known as Community of Christ or RLDS Church.  The official name is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  They are called Josephites after Joseph Smith III.  The Utah church is sometimes referred to as Brighamites, after Brigham Young. [5] John was ordained in October 2017. [6] The Milk Strippings story is a story in which the LDS Church claims that apostle Thomas B. Marsh was excommunicated for defending his wife.  As the story goes, his wife took extra milk for butter, known as “milk strippings.”  John wrote a post that there was more context to the story than is given in LDS Sunday School manuals.  See https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/07/01/the-milk-strippings-story-thomas-b-marsh-and-brigham-young/  

[paypal-donation] In the LDS Church we believe in an orderly succession from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young.  In the Reorganized Church of course they don't accept Brigham as the prophet and instead accept Joseph Smith III.  What is the view of RLDS Succession Crisis? In this conversation with Jim Vun Cannon, a counselor in the First Presidency of the Remnant Church, we'll learn that 16 years after Joseph Smith was killed, the Reorganized Church was established. GT:  One of the things I want to talk a little bit about is the Succession Crisis.  As you know Joseph Smith, for those of my listeners who aren't super familiar with church history, Joseph Smith was killed in 1844 in the Carthage Jail.  As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, I believe it was another 15 or so years before—Joseph Smith III was just a young boy.  He was probably about 14 or so? Jim:  Yeah, that's correct.  He was a young boy. GT:  So it took about 15 years or so before Joseph Smith III felt called of God and then the Reorganized Church started in 1860.  I believe it was April 6, 1860? Jim:  Actually that's an interesting point.  It actually started in 1852. GT:  Oh! Jim:  We actually had met together, a number of people during the Succession Crisis had come together.  They organized at the apostle level, so the Second Presidency level if you will.  They had the church until the prophet came forth, and so when young Joseph came, he felt compelled to come.  That's part of what he said, “I come by a power not of my own,” and he came to the church.  It was in April 6, 1860 and so forth.  Most people do look at that as the beginning, but honestly it was 1852, October of 1852 where they held the first general conference of the church at that point. Similarly, following the 1984 revelation where women got the priesthood on the RLDS Church, 16 years later the Remnant Church was begun.  We'll talk about similarities and differences between these two reorganizations, as well as talk about some priesthood differences between the LDS Church and the Remnant Church. Jim:  We have quorums of seventy that are underneath the Twelve, so seven quorums of Seventy is what we have.  Now we don't have seven quorums of Seventy, we only have one quorum. GT:  We only had that for a long time but now we've got six or seven I think.  Yeah seven is the maximum.  We've got that.  I don't believe all of our seven quorums have 70 in them.  They're half that I believe. Jim:  And if I understand correctly, your seventies are based on high priest, or are they based on elder? GT:  They are based on High Priest. Jim:  Ours are based on elder. GT:  Oh really? Jim:  Yes if you're based on an elder in the Melchizedek Priesthood, well obviously because your priesthood is an elder, you're set apart to be a seventy from the office of elder, not the office of high priest. GT:  Oh interesting.  I know it does seem very hierarchal in our church, and I don't believe that's the case in the Community of Christ and I'm not sure in your church as well.  Do you have adult members that are either Aaronic Priesthood or Melchizedek Priesthood holders?  Is that pretty typical? Jim:  Yes that is pretty typical.  We don't look at it as a progression.  We look at it as a calling.  It may be for instance you have a calling as a deacon all your life.  It doesn't mean you didn't magnify your call, it just means that that was what the Lord called you to do.  We have literally men who are 80-90 years old who are deacons, and also vice-versa.  We might have very young men who are elders or high priests, so there's no progression.  The way we look at it is wisdom and revelation is what's in our scriptures for that. Check out our conversation....  (Don't forget to check out part 1 and part 2!) [paypal-donation] https://youtu.be/hivi5IAdc-c  

[paypal-donation] We're continuing our discussion with Jim Vun Cannon, (see part 1 here)  a counselor in the First Presidency of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  In this episode, we'll talk about how he turned from Convert to First Presidency in just 5 years!  He became disillusioned with RLDS Church following the 1984 revelation giving women the priesthood.  How did he feel following this revelation? Jim:  [I] tried to sift through the ashes of what felt like a burned down church.  I graduated high school in ‘83, so in '84 it was like, what just happened?  Because I was right there in Independence so it was kind of a civil war with spiritual bloodshed on both sides.  It was just very unfortunate, because there obviously were a lot of strong feelings on both sides. It sounds quite damaging spiritually.  I asked Jim when he first came to the Remnant Church. Jim:  I started attending the Remnant Church in 2012 I believe is when I started. GT:  Oh really, just that recently? Jim:  Yes, that recently, yes. GT:  Wow, and you're in the First Presidency now! Jim:  Yes, it was an experience where the Lord told me to go and join this church, and I was just told to go and worship with these folks and ministered with these folks and I really wasn't told much more than that.  At the time I did not even have a testimony of President Larsen and his calling to be the prophet of the church, but that came very shortly afterwards.  I felt like it was one of those stepping out of the boat moments.  You know the water was a little squishy underneath your feet and trying to look forward, but yes, yes. GT:  You know as we look at the early church with Joseph Smith, a lot of times he did take brand new converts and put them right in the First Presidency, so that's pretty interesting. So literally from five years to counselor in the First Presidency—that's quite an amazing feat!  Can you imagine what that must have been like?  We also talk about priesthood and youth programs.  Check out the conversation!  

[paypal-donation] I'm excited to announce an interview with a counselor in the First Presidency!  His name is Jim Vun Cannon, and he is a member of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, based in Independence, Missouri.  Never heard of him?  Well, here's a little introduction to their church.  (Later we'll discuss a Literal Descendant of Aaron!) Jim:  I would say where we started out was we left the C[ommunity] of C[hrist, which] was called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  Of course I think you all know where that came from. We left that in [19]84.  There were a number of people who went out to Restoration branches.  At that point, people were looking up, can the church—because everyone believed that the church had to have structure and order to it. ... In 1999, a number of people started meeting together.  They were high priests and gathering other priesthood together to pray and to fast and to see what could be done.  What did the law actually allow? It turns out we found in some of the writings of Joseph Smith III, and some personal testimony and revelation that came forth, we could indeed have a church restored again, so that's what happened at that point. So the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ is essentially a breakoff of the RLDS Church, officially organized in the year 2000, under the direction of a new prophet, Frederick L. Larsen.  He is a matrilineal descendant of Joseph Smith, and the Remnant Church believes in lineal succession.  Jim said, "We are approximately 2700 members.  About 1200 of those members are here in the United States, and the rest of those are in foreign fields."  I met Jim in Idaho, as the church was holding a retreat for members in the Northwestern United States.  The most interesting thing I heard was this: Jim Vun Cannon:  Our Presiding Bishop actually is a literal descendant of Aaron. GT:  Oh really! Jim:  Yes.  Kevin Romer is actually.  Yes GT:  Ok.  Wow, that's interesting. Jim:  So yeah, that was new for us. GT:  Oh.  I would assume that he got that through the patriarch.  Is that how you declare lineage? Jim:  Yeah, typically the patriarchs will give you lineage.  In his particular case he had it from the patriarch and from the president of the church.  Both had testimonies of… GT interrupts:  Oh that he was a literal descendant? Jim:  literal descendant, yeah right. GT:  Ok, so the interesting thing, that doesn't happen very often in our church.  In fact I'm not aware of any. Jim:  This is the first I know of. GT:  Oh really! Jim:  Yeah, I don't know of any of our churches, yeah. GT:  Oh, wow.  That's interesting.  I know a bishop, and I don't know any bishop that would want to do this but if a bishop that is a literal descendant of Aaron, he does not need counselors, which when you're administering a ward, why would you not want to have counselors?  I don't know. Jim chuckles:  Yeah, he has counselors and he doesn't want to give them up.  I can appreciate that. GT:  Now is that a lifetime calling too, or is that just for a period of time? Jim:  We kind of look at that as a lifetime calling too, right now at this point.  It's really very new to us so we're just kind of learning that. In our next conversation we'll talk more about Jim's conversion to the Remnant Church.  Have you ever heard of the Remnant Church?  I want to thank media director Morgan Wigle for helping me arrange this interview.  Do you have any questions for Jim or Morgan? https://youtu.be/VCRt76z_7aw

[paypal-donation] The RLDS Church was founded on the claim that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy.  Even on her death bed, Emma Smith made the startling claim to some that Joseph never practiced polygamy.  Conservative bloggers such as Rock Waterman (see his post here) and even Denver Snuffer have made the claim that Joseph Smith was a monogamist.  However, current RLDS Church prophet/president Stephen Veazey has made the claim that historical records show that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy.  What does Dr. Brian Hales believe about these allegations about monogamy and Joseph Smith? I have an article that I have been pitching to different people to publish on the denials.  To be quite honest with you, there are at least two other denials that clearly were not senility, were clearly not specially phrased questions where Emma just comes right out and they're fairly well documented, said “Joseph did not practice polygamy.” How do I deal with that?  I don't know.  I do not have a good explanation.  I think Emma was an amazing woman.  I look forward to meeting her someday.  You know in our theology that's a possibility.  She had the worst row to hoe of all the polygamist wives in my view.  She did remarkably well.  She stumbled, but I believe there's plenty of forgiveness on these things for her, but I honestly don't know how she was able to say these things that she said.  Hopefully these will be published. I've put them together, I just haven't got them published yet.  It's pretty clear that she just denied it flat out.  I don't know how she made that work for her, but they're there. I also asked Brian how he deals with the idea that Joseph practiced only monogamy. Brian:  You know it's interesting, Rick, that you would bring that up because by the time this interview is aired, The Interpreter {a Mormon history journal} will have published a very long article that I have written where I don't just give evidence that Joseph did it, but I actually attack the arguments by, I mention Rock Waterman, I mention the Prices, and then Denver Snuffer who is in my view just the latest false prophet.  Remember I started looking at Mormon fundamentalism and I documented and wrote articles on men or came as great leaders who came for this reason or that reason and then they just fall by the wayside.  There's a number of these that I talk about in my book.  I think Denver is just the latest in all of this type of a pattern. For those who have questions, the easiest way probably to detect Denver is he said Joseph didn't practice polygamy, and then just look at the evidence.  I outline it all here.  It is true that most of the evidence that Joseph practiced plural marriage is from late sources, but not all of it.  The Nauvoo Expositor states right in there that Joseph Smith had a revelation.  It was read to the high council.  We've got testimonials from William Law and Jane Law saying that Joseph was teaching polygamy.  These are contemporaneous.  There are entries in William Clayton's journal.  John C. Bennett clearly had heard some rumors.  I don't know that he was ever in confidence of Joseph with it.  But to say that it's all old is not true.  There are some very important contemporaneous sources. What do you think of the arguments Brian makes against monogamy?  (As a reminder, this is part 10 of our conversation with Brian.  Check out parts 1-9 to learn the facts behind polygamy.)  Look below for a video and transcript. https://youtu.be/BxFWMzde2TY https://gospeltangents.com/shop/transcripts/emma-denied-joseph-practiced-polygamy/  

The Temple Lot Case is one of the most important sources for polygamy documents.  The RLDS Church wanted ownership of the temple lot in Independence, Missouri but another group, sometimes known as the Temple Lot Church owned the property.  The LDS Church assisted assisted the Temple Lot Church and had women testify about their polygamist relationships with Joseph Smith in order to counteract the RLDS claims that they were the true successors to Joseph Smith.  Dr. Brian Hales describes this important court testimony.  This is a continuation of our previous conversation about young bride Helen Mar Kimball, as Brian discusses her relation to the Temple Lot case. If we didn't have the RLDS Church saying Joseph wasn't a polygamist, we wouldn't have the 1869 affidavits, we wouldn't have the 1877 collection by Andrew Jensen, and we wouldn't have the additional information from the Temple Lot Case.  Together those three are 75% of what we know, and it's scary for researchers on polygamy to think about what we would know about Nauvoo polygamy if the RLDS Church had not taken the stance that they did.  It's really scary.  You'd have John C. Bennett.  You'd have William Law, and you would not know even a fraction of what we think we know about it today. Check out our conversation… Don't forget to check out our previous episodes on Fanny Alger, as well as parts 1–7 of our conversations with Brian. https://youtu.be/IDP7Ybvk1cw   Our New Contest! Don't forget to sign up for a contest to win a free book!  You can sign up here!  It is the Parallel Doctrine & Covenants that contains the 1832, 1833, and 1835 Doctrine & Covenants side by side so you can see the changes.  When it was originally published, it was about $50, but the book is now out of print.  Curt Bench was actually the one who wrote the introduction to this book.  It's a fairly recent book, but if you find it on Amazon now, check this out.  It's $175.  On Abebooks it's even higher–$260!  This book is a valuable book and has become a collector's item, especially for historians or those seriously interested in Mormon history. Here's what you need to do for a chance to win.  Just go to https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter .  In there, enter your email address and your name, and we will simply put you in a contest for a drawing on Pioneer Day, July 24th, 2017. https://gospeltangents.com/shop/transcripts/polygamy-temple-lot-case/  

In Part 4, John Hamer tells the remarkable story of the RLDS Church’s transformation from a inward-looking sect with a negative, exclusive identity to a progressive denomination with a positive, inclusive identity. Although both the RLDS Church and the LDS Church were faced with the same basic challenges in the societal transformation in North America after World War 2, the churches had completely opposite responses. In the wake of the challenges posed by professional scholarship of the "New Mormon History," RLDS leaders chose to "embrace truth and do what is right, let the consequence follow," rather than to retrench, deny, and retreat into territory that is intellectually indefensible. The path has not been an easy one, but it has led Community of Christ to become a church whose values include "unity in diversity," "the worth of all persons," and the principle that "all are called." Today, women serve at every level of church leadership, up to the First Presidency. Community of Christ has had apostles from Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Pacific Islands, in addition to North America. LGBT members have full priesthood participation in North America and Australia, and in states and countries where it is legal, priesthood members may perform same-sex marriages as a sacrament in Community of Christ.

In Part 3, John Hamer talks about how Latter Day Saints living in the Midwest who continued to oppose polygamy were able to regroup and come together as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. These members included Joseph Smith Jr.’s immediate family. Joseph and Emma’s eldest surviving son, Joseph Smith III, led the RLDS Church as prophet for 54 years. Described by his biographer as a "pragmatic prophet," Joseph III was able to successfully weld diverse old Saints who had been Strangites, Cutlerites, Wightites, Whitermites, Rigdonites, Thompsonites, Brighamites, Morrisites, and more, into a Restoration tradition church that took the Kirtland era as its model. The fact that Joseph III grew up in the ruins of Nauvoo and had learned to live with his neighbors influenced the Reorganization’s strong peace tradition.

The Decade of the Sixties: The Early Struggles in the RLDS Shift from Sect to Denomination: This is a discussion of how, during the 1960s the RLDS Church made very decisive steps toward shedding its sectarian past. It began the decade clearly rooted in the sectarian world view. But by the end of the decade, many of the church's leaders and a reasonable number of its members had adopted liberal views, down-playing traditional unique Latter Day Saint doctrines. Today, the RLDS Church (or Community of Christ) has but a fraction of the membership it once enjoyed. What lessons can the LDS Church learn from the Community of Christ. What did they do right, and wrong?

The Decade of the Sixties: The Early Struggles in the RLDS Shift from Sect to Denomination: This is a discussion of how, during the 1960s the RLDS Church made very decisive steps toward shedding its sectarian past. It began the decade clearly rooted in the sectarian world view. But by the end of the decade, many of the church's leaders and a reasonable number of its members had adopted liberal views, down-playing traditional unique Latter Day Saint doctrines. Today, the RLDS Church (or Community of Christ) has but a fraction of the membership it once enjoyed. What lessons can the LDS Church learn from the Community of Christ. What did they do right, and wrong?