Podcasts about Bloomington

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It's another Victory Monday show as we talk about Saturday's gutty win in Bloomington. And then...Mel Tucker coaching rumors. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Indiana Hoosiers vs Michigan State Spartans betting picks, predictions and odds for their Big Ten Football showdown on Saturday, October 16 2021 at 12:00pm ET from Memorial Stadium in Bloomington, Indiana. Michigan State remains one of the last unbeaten teams in the country. Can the Spartans keep their run going against a feisty Indiana squad? Direct from Las Vegas, our panel of professional sports handicappers look at the Vegas odds and offer their expert college football analysis on this NCAAF Week 7 clash between the Hoosiers and Spartans. At the time of posting, the WagerTalk Live Odds screen is showing Michigan State as a 5-point road favorite at Indiana, with the over/under sitting at 48.5 points.

First Chair catches up with Women of Winter (WoW) founder Chris Walch. PSIA-AASI and Women of Winter partnered this season to provide scholarships and host five instructor education events for Black, Indigenous, Women of Color that will encourage and support women to pursue opportunities to teach skiing or snowboarding. Participants select the location they would like to attend and submit an application by 10/31. There are a maximum of six participants at each event. Learn more: https://www.thesnowpros.org/education/scholarships/women-of-winter/ Events will be held at: February 1 – 4, 2022: Hyland Hills Ski Area, Bloomington, Minnesota (Alpine Level I) February 7 – 10, 2022: Windham Mountain, Windham, New York (Alpine Level I) February 7 – 10, 2022: Eldora Mountain, Nederland, Colorado (Snowboard Level I) March 5 – 8, 2022: Big Sky Resort, Big Sky, Montana (Alpine Level I) March 5 – 8, 2022: Big Sky Resort, Big Sky, Montana (Snowboard Level I) Special thanks to these PSIA-AASI Official Suppliers for their support of the program: Rossignol, Giro, Hestra, Leki, The North Face, and Terramar.

In the 12th episode of "That 90s Baseball Pod" Brandon and Gregg are joined by legendary manager Buck Showalter to talk shop about the 90s and his illustrious career.  Be sure to check out our sponsors!  Epare -- Reasonably priced, trendy kitchenware. PROMO CODE: 10T90BP10 SimBull -- The stock market for sports. PROMO CODE: bender Humility Chains -- Stylish, reasonably priced jewelry where a portion of proceeds supports NEGU, which helps children fighting cancer. Royce Lewis' mother Cindy has more than 20 stylish designs of bracelets and necklaces. Three Stars Sports Cards -- Visit them in person in Little Canda or Bloomington or online at the link above.  Hinterland Coffee Roasters -- Hinterland Coffee exists to bring you the freshest coffees from around the world, roasted to bring out their inherent flavors in a way that you're comfortable with, wherever you're at. Roasted each week, 10 percent off with monthly subscription.  We are also on PATREON here. Check out our tiers.  Finally, we also have hats available -- snapbacks. They're $20 shipped and can be ordered from Brandon on Twitter via DM. Follow Brandon and Gregg on Twitter! 

MLive reporters Brandon Champion, Kyle Austin and Matt Wenzel recap Michigan State's sloppy-but-explosive win at Rutgers before previewing another road trip to Bloomington where the Spartans will face a struggling Indiana team. Also, takeaways from Big Ten basketball media days. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Romans 12:4-8. From the "The Book of Romans" sermon series. Preached by Tim Bayly.

Romans 5:6-11. From the "Special Services" sermon series. Preached by Stephen Baker.

In the 11th episode of "That 90s Baseball Pod" Brandon and Gregg discuss the relationship between a pitcher and a pitching coach across all levels of baseball. Be sure to check out our sponsors!  Epare -- Reasonably priced, trendy kitchenware. PROMO CODE: 10T90BP10 SimBull -- The stock market for sports. PROMO CODE: bender Humility Chains -- Stylish, reasonably priced jewelry where a portion of proceeds supports NEGU, which helps children fighting cancer. Royce Lewis' mother Cindy has more than 20 stylish designs of bracelets and necklaces. Three Stars Sports Cards -- Visit them in person in Little Canda or Bloomington or online at the link above.  Hinterland Coffee Roasters -- Hinterland Coffee exists to bring you the freshest coffees from around the world, roasted to bring out their inherent flavors in a way that you're comfortable with, wherever you're at. Roasted each week, 10 percent off with monthly subscription.  We are also on PATREON here. Check out our tiers.  Finally, we also have hats available -- snapbacks. They're $20 shipped and can be ordered from Brandon on Twitter via DM. Follow Brandon and Gregg on Twitter! 

What happened to 25 year old Jelani Day? Jelani was a bright doctoral student who went missing without a trace this past August only for his body to be found in the Illinois river over a week later. Little to no evidence was recovered from the scene. Jelani's heartbroken mother wants to know, what happened to this aspiring doctor, devoted son and treasured friend?GoFundMe for Jelani Day: https://www.gofundme.com/f/find-jelani-dayDo you have information leading to the manner of Jelani's passing? If so, you can report tips to Officer John Fermon, Bloomington (IL) Police Department or Detective Paul Jones:Officer John FermonDesk: (309)-434-2355 Main: (309) 820-8888 Fax: (309)-829-0662 Detective Paul JonesPhone: (309) 434-2548Pjones@cityblm.org Email: Paffairs@cityblm.orgpolice@cityblm.orgIf you or a loved one is feeling distressed, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. The crisis center provides free and confidential emotional support 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to civilians and veterans. Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 (tel:18002738255). Or text HOME to 741-741 (Crisis Text Line)

Romans 12:3-8. From the "The Book of Romans" sermon series. Preached by Tim Bayly.

In the 10th episode of "That 90s Baseball Pod" Brandon and Gregg are joined by former big-league lefty Greg Swindell for stories about Texas baseball, going second overall in the MLB draft, transitioning from starter to reliever and much more. Be sure to check out our sponsors!  Epare -- Reasonably priced, trendy kitchenware. PROMO CODE: 10T90BP10 SimBull -- The stock market for sports. PROMO CODE: bender Humility Chains -- Stylish, reasonably priced jewelry where a portion of proceeds supports NEGU, which helps children fighting cancer. Royce Lewis' mother Cindy has more than 20 stylish designs of bracelets and necklaces. Three Stars Sports Cards -- Visit them in person in Little Canda or Bloomington or online at the link above.  Hinterland Coffee Roasters -- Hinterland Coffee exists to bring you the freshest coffees from around the world, roasted to bring out their inherent flavors in a way that you're comfortable with, wherever you're at. Roasted each week, 10 percent off with monthly subscription.  We are also on PATREON here. Check out our tiers.  Finally, we also have hats available -- snapbacks. They're $20 shipped and can be ordered from Brandon on Twitter via DM. Follow Brandon and Gregg on Twitter! 

Mat Alano-Martin was the guest this week! Mat started comedy at the world famous Comedy Attic in Bloomington, Indiana! Mat shares the struggles of getting booked early on at the Comedy Attic, the weird process it took to become a feature at the Comedy Attic, and he shares his fun times featuring for the famous comedian Ralphie May, may he rest in peace. Mat also gives some good tips for dos and don'ts when making submission tapes for festivals or late night gigs. If you enjoyed the podcast please give us a 5 star review on Apple Podcast and tell your friends about the podcast! Mat Alano-Martin's Website: https://mat-alano-martin-comedy.com/ Nolan Miller is featuring for Sean Patton October 1st and 2nd in the upstairs room at Helium, here is the link to get tickets for those shows: https://indianapolis.heliumcomedy.com/events/47517 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Chad Brendel and David Simone open with Yahoo Sports national CFB writer Pete Thamel to discuss his detailed in-depth look at the Cincinnati program. Luke Fickell, Desmond Ridder, constructing a weeks worth of information into a complete deep dive, the fear it might all be for naught when down 14-0 in Bloomington and everything else that went into the process. From there Dave and Chad take a deep dive into the Notre Dame battle of top 10 teams in South Bend. Offense, defense, special teams, coaches, tailgating, total drink consumption and every other possible angle is covered. We close with a little hoops recruiting, the start of basketball practice on Thursday and a thank you to so many that have reached out in a time of need for the Brendel family. It's the first ever 2 hour BCJ Pod and well worth the listen.

In the first episode of The Inside Scoop with Tamar Bates presented by Speakeasy Sales Copy, Jerod and Tamar lay out their goals for the show and dig into Tamar's offseason transition to Bloomington. Among the topics discussed:• How the show came about• What they want fans to take away from the series• How Tamar reacts when his coaches and teammates call him "cocky."• His relationship with Rob Phinisee (and how Rob is looking offensively)• The impact of Clif Marshall• His impression of what's different this year compared to before his arrival• The lessons learned and confidence gained from the Bahamas trip• The early leader for his favorite restaurant in Bloomington• What he and his family will be doing before and during Hoosier Hysteria• His goals for his freshman season -- team and personalAnd much more.

Indiana sent Penn State's 2020 season into a tailspin with a Week 1 overtime win in Bloomington last year. Can the Nittany Lions return the favor against their Big Ten counterpart in Happy Valley? Join Joe Raineri, Dave Cokin, Bryan Leonard and Tony Mejia for College Football Daily as we preview the marquee Week 5 college football matchups, including Miami (Fla) vs Virginia; Maryland vs Iowa; Utah State vs BYU; and Penn State vs Indiana.#CollegeFootball | #NCAAF | #FootballTuesday's Featured Games:Introduction 00:00Miami (Fla) vs Virginia 04:10Maryland vs Iowa 09:40Utah State vs BYU 16:35Penn State vs Indiana 24:50Final Thoughts 30:40

Limited Time Halloween Merch Available the 29th on ieinfriends.comOur home girl Steff came through and shared her experience being the only girl in her family, Dating as a Business Owner, and the importance of traveling!Check out her delicious food truck here! @elmititofontana 10939 Alder Ave, Bloomington, CA 9231600:00:00 - Intro00:02:24 - Working in the Food Industry00:04:07 - Fuqq Boi Faxx00:09:14 - Sitting on the same side of the table00:12:19 - When is it acceptable to go back to your ex00:19:03 - Dating as a business owner00:20:13 - Being the only girl in the family00:23:20 - Getting hit as kids00:31:44 - Having strict latino parents00:42:40 - Telling your parents you're having s*x00:46:32 - “se te va a aparecer el diablo”00:52:41 - playing with a ouija board00:54:22 - Spooky Stories01:02:20 - Having Sleep Paralysis01:04:50 - Latino Witch Doctors01:08:54 - La llorona01:11:42 - Not feeling your age01:13:45 - What makes you an adult01:20:15 - Getting punched by a guy01:21:24 - Is it ever ok to hit a girl?01:30:47 - Europeans hate Americans01:33:07 - The Zoot Suit Riots01:38:11 - Hidden U.S History01:44:21 - Would you leave the U.S?01:47:57 - The rainbow flick is banned in soccer01:51:15 - Know the culture before traveling01:56:19 - Traveling is the best thing you can do02:00:55 - Traveling by yourself02:09:22 - Do you keep a gift your ex gave you02:13:34 - Patreon Shout Outs

1 John 1:1–10. From the "New Testament" sermon series. Preached by Max Curell.

Daniel Orr is a culinary wizard who brings farm ambience and incredible farm freshness to his mouth-watering cuisine in Bloomington, Indiana. Daniel brings his impeccable knowledge of world cuisines to his partnerships with local farms in order to create mind-blowing dishes! His reputation as a top chef has earned him many accolades, including a New York Times review giving him a three stars as the executive chef of famed French restaurant, La Grenouille, and becoming the executive chef Guastavino's in New York City, all before settling in his home state to run FARMbloomington. Being humble and caring a lot about the community of Bloomington are just a few of the the many amazing attributes of Chef Orr, and being a part of the community and donating food are important aspects of his business that he takes pride in. His passion for his restaurant is incredible! The massive lines are an indication that the farm-fresh food makes FARM the best place to dine in Bloomington! Thank you Daniel for being on the episode! You can follow FARMbloomington on Instagram @farmbloomington and on Facebook @FARMbloomingtonRestaurant. You can check out their website at farm-bloomington.com, where you can also find Chef Orr's cook books including FARMfood, Paradise Kitchen, and The Wellness Lifestyle. Thank you, Coming From the Heart family, for your continued support of the podcast. Stay tuned by following our Instagram @coming_fromtheheartpodcast, and look forward to two great episodes a month with brand new guests. Lots of cool stuff to look forward to in the near future! Thank you to our partners: Play Out Apparel: Use code HEARTPODCAST when you check out & 20% of the proceeds will be donated to IMMIGRATION EQUALITY which is the nation's leading LGBTQ+ Immigration Rights Organization. Greek Glasses: Use code ALBE40 for 40% off your order! Shout out to our amazing sound engineer Alex Wiederock (@ajwiede on Instagram) for editing the podcast! Also, shout out to Xixuan Hei for the original and beautiful soundtrack she composed (@xixuan_hei on Instagram). Please join our community and follow us on: Instagram: @coming_fromtheheartpodcast Twitter: @cfthpodcast Facebook: Coming From the Heart Podcast https://linktr.ee/coming_fromtheheartpodcast Please subscribe, rate, review, & share with the ones closest to your hearts!

In the ninth episode of "That 90s Baseball Pod" Brandon and Gregg are joined by former Orioles starting pitcher Ben McDonald for a fun hour-plus of stories from his career. Be sure to check out our sponsors!  Epare -- Reasonably priced, trendy kitchenware. PROMO CODE: 10T90BP10 SimBull -- The stock market for sports. PROMO CODE: bender Humility Chains -- Stylish, reasonably priced jewelry where a portion of proceeds supports NEGU, which helps children fighting cancer. Royce Lewis' mother Cindy has more than 20 stylish designs of bracelets and necklaces. Three Stars Sports Cards -- Visit them in person in Little Canda or Bloomington or online at the link above.  Hinterland Coffee Roasters -- Hinterland Coffee exists to bring you the freshest coffees from around the world, roasted to bring out their inherent flavors in a way that you're comfortable with, wherever you're at. Roasted each week, 10 percent off with monthly subscription.  We are also on PATREON here. Check out our tiers.  Finally, we also have hats available -- snapbacks. They're $20 shipped and can be ordered from Brandon on Twitter via DM. Follow Brandon and Gregg on Twitter! 

Official Website: https://www.lawabidingbiker.com We spent the day installing aftermarket front suspension on Oscar's 2013 Harley-Davidson Ultra Limited. Of course, we filmed the entire project and it will eventually release on our YouTube Channel so make sure you're subscribed! In this episode, Oscar and I generally discuss the different options for aftermarket front suspension for Harley-Davidson motorcycles along with why you would want to do this. In Oscar's case, it was because his suspension was becoming very soft, which was affecting his front braking and making for a rough ride, especially when he had his passenger on the back. His front end was really dipping when applying the front brakes.  SUPPORT US AND SHOP IN THE OFFICIAL LAW ABIDING BIKER STORE You should also change out your front fork fluid at regularly recommended intervals. We discuss how to do this and also filmed it for release on our YouTube channel. Renewing your fork fluid can help with some front suspension issues you may be having. The procedures for this can vary a bit from year to year.  This article is just an overview about changing out the front suspension on your Harley and you really need to listen in to this podcast episode as we go over all the fine details of this project. We talk about what we learned during this project, some tips and tricks, and things to avoid.  CHECK OUT OUR HUNDREDS OF FREE HELPFUL VIDEOS ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL AND SUBSCRIBE! You can change out your front suspension on your Harley right in your very own shop or garage with the help of our video. But, having some specialty tools on hand will make this job a bit easier.   Specialty Tools to Consider: Fork Seal Driver Fork Leg and Tube Holder Tool Fork Cap Nut Socket Titan Motorcycle Lift and Min-Jack New Free Video Mentioned:  Riding Motorcycles in Real America! Documentary Film Sponsor-Ciro 3D CLICK HERE! Innovative products for Harley-Davidson & Goldwing Affordable chrome, lighting, and comfort products Ciro 3D has a passion for design and innovation Sponsor-RickRak CLICK HERE The Ultimate Motorcycle Luggage Rack Solution Forget those messy straps and bungee cords Go strapless with a RickRak quick attach luggage system & quality bag New Patrons: Jim Knisley of Bloomington, IL David Rodriguez of Pembroke Pines, Florida Todd Mercer of the United State Military Ty Fox of Nazareth , Pennsylvania Elisha Bryant of University Place, WA Euan Brown of Melbourne, Australia Richard Tardy of Marion, Indiana Brad Varmo of Thornton, Colorado Dan Norman If you appreciate the content we put out and want to make sure it keeps on coming your way then become a Patron too! There are benefits and there is no risk. Thanks to the following bikers for supporting us via a flat donation: Rodolfo Sanchez of Houston, Texas Joseph Orr of North Hollywood, California Gerald Boyer of Merced, CA  ________________________________________________________ FURTHER INFORMATION:   Official Website: http://www.LawAbidingBiker.com   Email & Voicemail: http://www.LawAbidingBiker.com/Contact   Podcast Hotline Phone: 509-731-3548 HELP SUPPORT US! JOIN THE BIKER REVOLUTION! #BikerRevolution #LawAbidingBiker

There are so many people currently missing, and we've seen the impact of strong media coverage in the recent Gabby Petito case. Jelani Day was last seen on August 24, 2021 in Bloomington, IL. If you have any information please call 309-820-8888. Sign the petition to get the FBI involved: https://www.change.org/o/find_jelani_day Daniel Robinson: Daniel Robinson was last seen leaving work in Buckeye, AZ on June 23, 2021. If you have any information, please call 623-349-6400. Visit https://pleasehelpfinddaniel.com/ for more info. Summer Wells was last seen at her home in Rogersville, TN on June 15, 2021. If you have any information, please call 423-272-7121 or 1-800-TBI-FIND. Lauren Cho was last seen in the Yucca Valley/Morongo Valley area on June 28, 2021. If you have any information, please call 760-956-5001. Sources for this episode: https://www.newsweek.com/investigators-join-search-find-lauren-cho-1631581#:~:text=More%20investigators%20have%20joined%20the,t%20been%20heard%20from%20since. https://www.the-sun.com/news/3696946/who-lauren-cho-missing/ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/gabby-petito-lauren-cho-vanish-b1925305.html https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexalisitza/everything-we-know-lauren-cho-daniel-robinson https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/daniel-robinson-missing-geologist-arizona-b1925019.html https://www.insider.com/gabby-petito-renewed-urgency-find-missing-daniel-robinson-2021-9 If you enjoy our podcast, please leave us a rating and review! Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @inhuman_podcast and TikTok @inhumanpodcast. If you have questions or case suggestions, send us an email at inhumanmonsterpod@gmail.com!

Explore this year's edition of the Lotus World Music and Arts Festival in Bloomington, Indiana. Hear from artists performing at this year's festival, including David Dávila González of Matixando.

Rob Phinisee has had an interesting, and in may ways contradictory, three years in Bloomington.• He arrived as a headline member of one of the most celebrated IU recruiting classes of the post-Knight era … but is now the only one left and still hasn't played in an NCAA Tournament game.• He burst onto the scene as a freshman point guard with the kind of production that gave IU fans dreams of the next Yogi … but has struggled to recapture that efficiency and consistency since.• He's earned a reputation as a clutch shooter with a handful of memorable shots that decided games … but has been a part of three straight backcourts that notoriously couldn't shoot the ball well enough to space the floor for talented interior scorers.• His IU teams have struggled to just get their head above water in Big Ten play … but notched three straight wins against top-10 Michigan State teams.It hasn't really made a lot of sense.But what does seem to make sense, at least IU fans hope, is that Rob and the entire IU program will have a chance to be reborn under the direction of a new staff and with a rebuilt roster.In this wide-ranging conversation with Rob we discuss the many contradictory elements of his time at IU and look forward to what his fourth season may bring. Among the topics we get into:• How he's approaching his option to play a fifth year• That time he scored 50 points in a high school game … and could have scored more• Why he chose to leave Lafayette for Bloomington• What Indiana needs to do to finally beat Purdue again• The ups and downs of the Marquette and Arkansas games freshman year• The game-winner against Butler and the anointing of “Big Shot Rob”• Hypotheses for why he's been able to come through more consistently in clutch situations than regular ones• The ongoing relationship he developed with the young man who wrote him a letter after the Butler game• What guarding Cassius Winston was like• The toughest players he's had to guard (his final answer on this one will stun you)• What he learned about the impact of crowds during the COVID season• What the experience of playing for Archie Miller was like• The role does he expect to play this season• What will be different about Indiana's defensive approach this season• What he wants to do after his basketball playing career is overAnd so much more. We cover a ton while reliving some of his most memorable moments as a Hoosier.

From Brown County to Colorado to the Chateau Marmont in LA, Cody Gradolf has cut his teeth at the some of the best restaurants in the country. In his three plus years at Osteria Rago he has worked himself into the Head Chef role and made Osteria a must mention when listing Bloomington's best restaurants. Cody was an interesting interview and had great insight into all things restaurant. Check it out!! Osteria Rago

In June of 2011, Lauren Spierer enjoyed a night out with her friends on the campus of Indiana University in Bloomington. But after leaving the famous Kilroy's Sports Bar, she vanished, and has yet to be seen since. Thousands of tips, a dozen search warrants, and over a decade of looking for Lauren. Will she ever be found? Is this considered a “cold case?” Find out on this high-profile episode of Mysteries of The Ohio Valley.

Welcome back mis amigos!  Intuitive eating is not just for recovery from chronic diets, it can be used in everyday nutrition care and medical nutrition therapy. Tune in to hear Angie discuss a gentler nutrition approach for athletes, digestive issues, and raising kids.Topics we cover include… Intuitive Eating with Athletic Performance Intuitive Eating with Digestive IssuesIntuitive Eating with KidsIntroducing Our GuestKey to Success: Goal Setting Tips Introducing Our Guest Angie Dye is a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist (RDN) and a Certified Specialist in Sports Dietetics (CSSD). She is also a Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor. Angie works one-on-one with clients at her nutrition practice, Carpe Diem Nutrition, in Hershey, PA. Areas of expertise include Sports Nutrition, Digestive Health, and Intuitive Eating. She enjoys helping athletes optimize their performance with nutrition, and has seen the benefits in every level of athlete from youth, up to the ultra-endurance level.  Angie holds a Master's Degree in Nutrition Science from Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. Prior to starting her private practice, Angie worked as a Clinical Dietitian at the University of Chicago Hospitals. She also served as adjunct faculty at Loyola University in Chicago. Angie loves being a wife and mother of 3 delightful teenagers. She has a passion for cooking and loves sharing simple, healthful and delicious recipes with her family, friends and clients. She has always loved sports, and completed her first triathlon in 1999.  Stay Connected! For full show notes remember to visit our website for links and more. If you like this episode, then download the show wherever you listen to your podcasts at Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Google and hit that subscribe button so you won't miss another episode. Big Ask: Leave a Review! Please, take a few minutes and leave me a review on your podcast app. Each review helps other listeners fin the podcast, which provides me with the ability to continue bring you unique content. So spread the love. Loss for words? Just write what you like about the show.  If you want to work with us, schedule an appointment. You can email us at info@orozconutrition.com or call 678-568-4717. Our website is currently under construction.Once again, I greatly appreciate you for listening and supporting my show. Remember, it really only takes One Small Bite to start transforming your life.   Remember - Chop the diet mentality; Fuel Your Body; and Nourish Your Soul

There's a place where sports and data meet, and it's as powerful a collision as on any football field!  Jeff Sagarin has been a figurehead in the sports analytics realm for decades, and we're thrilled to have had the chance to have him on to talk about his data journey!  There's a fair mix of math AND sports geek out time in this episode.  And, did we mention that Dr. Wayne Winston is sitting in on this episode as well? References in this Episode: 2 Frictionless Colliding Boxes Video Scorigami Episode Transcript: Rob Collie (00:00:00): Hello, friends. Today's guest is Jeff Sagarin. Is that name familiar to you? It's very familiar to me. In my life, Jeff's work might very well be my first brush with the concept of using data for any sort of advantage. His Power Ranking Columns, first appeared in USA Today in 1985, when I was 11 years old. And what a fascinating concept that was. Rob Collie (00:00:29): It probably won't surprise you if I confess that 11-year-old me was not particularly good at sports, but I was still fascinated and captivated by them. 11-year-old kids in my neighborhood were especially prone to associating sports with their tribal identity. Everyone had their favorite teams, their favorite sports stars. And invariably, this led to arguments about which sports star was better than the other sports star, who was going to win this game coming up and who would win a tournament amongst all of these teams and things of that sort. Rob Collie (00:01:01): Now that I've explained it that way though, I guess being an adult sports fan isn't too terribly different, is it? Those arguments, of course, aren't the sorts of arguments where there's anything resembling a clear winner. But in practice, the person who won was usually the one with the loudest voice or the sickest burn that they could deliver to their friends. And then in 1985, the idea was planted in my head by Jeff Sagarin's column in USA Today, that there actually was a relatively objective way to evaluate teams that had never played against one another and likely never would. Rob Collie (00:01:33): I wasn't into computers at the time. I certainly wasn't into the concept of data. I didn't know what a database was. I didn't know what a spreadsheet was. And yet, this was still an incredibly captivating and powerful idea. So in my life, Jeff Sagarin is the first public figure that I encountered in the sports analytics industry long before it was cool. And because it was sports, a topic that was relevant to 11-year-old me, he's really also my first brush with analytics at all. Rob Collie (00:02:07): It's not surprising then, that to me, Jeff is absolutely a celebrity. As a guest, in insider podcasting lingo, Jeff is what we call a good get. We owe that pleasure, of course, to him being close friends with Wayne Winston, a former guest on the show, who also joined us today as co-guest. Rob Collie (00:02:28): Now, if none of that speaks to you, let's try this alternate description. He's probably also the world's most famous active FORTRAN programmer. I admit that I was so starstruck by this that I didn't even really push as hard as I normally would, in terms of getting into the techniques that he uses. I didn't want to run afoul of asking him for trade secrets. At times, this conversation did devolve into four dudes sitting around talking about sports. Rob Collie (00:02:59): But setting that aside, there are some really, really interesting and heartwarming things happening in this conversation as well. Again, the accidental path to where he is today, the intersection of persistence and good fortune that's required really for success in anything. Bottom line, this is the story of a national and highly influential figure at the intersection of the sports industry and the analytics industry for more than three decades. It's not every day you get to hear that story. So let's get into it. Announcer (00:03:34): Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please? Announcer (00:03:39): This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Colley and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element. Rob Collie (00:04:02): Welcome to the show, Jeff Sagarin. And welcome back to the show. Wayne Winston. So thrilled to have the two of you with us today. This is awesome. We've been looking forward to this for a long time. So thank you very much gentlemen, for being here. Jeff Sagarin (00:04:16): You're welcome. Rob Collie (00:04:18): Jeff, usually we kick these things off with, "Hey, tell us a little about yourself, your background, blah, blah, blah." Let's start off with me telling you about you. It's a story about you that you wouldn't know. I remember for a very long time being aware of you. Rob Collie (00:04:35): So I'm 47 years old, born in 1974. My father had participated for many years in this shady off-the-books college football pick'em pool that was run out of the high school in a small town in Florida. Like the sheets with everybody's entries would show up. They were run on ditto paper, like that blue ink. It was done in the school ditto room and he did this every year. This was like the most fascinating thing that happened in the entire year to me. Like these things showing up at our house, this packet of all these picks, believe it or not, they were handwritten. These grids were handwritten with everyone's picks. It was ridiculous. Rob Collie (00:05:17): He got eliminated every year. There were a couple of hundred entries every year and he just got his butt kicked every year. But then one year, he did his homework. He researched common opponents and things like that or that kind of stuff. I seem to recall this having something to do timing wise with you. So I looked it up. Your column first appeared in USA Today in 1985. Is that correct? Jeff Sagarin (00:05:40): Yeah. Tuesday, January 8th 1985. Rob Collie (00:05:44): I remember my dad winning this pool that year and using the funds to buy a telescope to look at Halley's Comet when it showed up. And so I looked up Halley's Comet. What do you know? '86. So it would have been like the January ballgames of 1986, where he won this pool. And in '85, were you power ranking college football teams or was that other sports? Jeff Sagarin (00:06:11): Yes. Rob Collie (00:06:12): Okay. So when my dad said that he did his research that year, what he really did was read your stuff. You bought my dad a telescope in 1986 so that we could go have one of the worst family vacations of all time. It was just awful. Thank you. Jeff Sagarin (00:06:31): You're very welcome. Rob Collie (00:06:39): I kind of think of you as the first publicly known figure in sports analytics. You probably weren't the first person to apply math and computers to sports analytics, but you're the first person I heard of. Jeff Sagarin (00:06:51): There is a guy that people don't even talk about very much. Now a guy named Earnshaw Cook, who first inspired me when I was a sophomore in high school in the '63-'64 school year, there was an article by Frank Deford in Sports Illustrated about Earnshaw Cook publishing a book called Percentage Baseball. So I convinced my mom to let me have $10 to order it by mail and I got it. I started playing around with his various ideas in it. He was the first guy I ever heard of and that was in March of 1964. Rob Collie (00:07:28): All right, so everyone's got an origin story. Jeff Sagarin (00:07:31): The Dunkel family started doing the Dunkel ratings back I believe in 1929. Then there was a professor, I think he was at Vanderbilt, named [Lipkin House 00:07:41], he was I think at Vanderbilt. And for years, he did the high school ratings in states like maybe Tennessee and Kentucky. I think he gave Kentucky that Louisville courier his methodology before he died. But I don't know if they continue his work or not. But there were people way before me. Rob Collie (00:08:03): But they weren't in USA Today. Jeff Sagarin (00:08:04): That's true. Rob Collie (00:08:06): They weren't nationally distributed, like on a very regular basis. I've been hearing your name longer than I've even been working with computers. That's pretty crazy. How did you even get hooked up with USA Today? Jeff Sagarin (00:08:23): People might say, "You got lucky." My answer, as you'll see as well, I'd worked for 12 years to be in a position to get lucky. I started getting paid for doing this in September of 1972 with an in-house publication of pro football weekly called Insider's Pro Football Newsletter. Jeff Sagarin (00:08:45): In the Spring of '72, I'd written letters to like 100 newspapers saying because I had started by hand doing my own rating system for pro football in the fall of 1971. Just by hand, every Sunday night, I'd get the scores and add in the Monday night. I did it as a hobby. I wasn't doing it for a living. I did it week by week and charted the teams. It was all done with some charts I'd made up with a normal distribution and a slide rule. So I sent out letters in the spring of '72 to about 100 papers saying, "Hey, would you be interested in running my stuff?" Jeff Sagarin (00:09:19): They either didn't answer me or all said, "No, not interested." But I got a call right before I left to go to California when an old college friend that spring. It was from William Wallace, who was a big time football correspondent for The New York Times. That anecdote may be in that article by Andy Glockner. He called me up, he was at the New York Times, but he said also, "I write articles for extra money for pro football weekly. I wanted to just kind of talk to you." Jeff Sagarin (00:09:49): He wrote an article that appeared in Pro Quarterback magazine in September of '72. But during the middle of that summer, I got a phone call from Pro Football weekly, the publisher, a guy named [inaudible 00:10:04] said, "Hey Jeff. Have you seen our ad in street and Smith's?" It didn't matter. It could have been their pro magazine or college. I said, "Yeah, I did." And he said, "Do you notice it said we've got a world famous handicapper to do our predictions for us?" I said, "Yeah, I did see that." He said, "How would you like to be that world famous handicapper? We don't have anybody." Jeff Sagarin (00:10:25): We just said that because he said William Wallace told us to call you. So I said, "Okay, I'll be your world famous handicapper." I didn't start off that well and they had this customer, it was a paid newsletter and there was a customer from Hawaii. He had a great name, Charles Fujiwara. He'd send letters every week saying, "Sagarin's terrible, but he's winning a fortune for me. I just reverse his picks every week." So finally, finally, my numbers turn the tide and I had this one great week, where I went 8-0. He sent another letter saying, "I'm bankrupt. The kid destroyed me." Because he was reversing all my picks. That's a true story. Rob Collie (00:11:07): At least he had a sense of humor. It sounds like a pretty interesting fellow on the other end of that letter. Jeff Sagarin (00:11:13): He sounds like he could have been like the guy, if you've ever seen reruns of the old show, '77 Sunset Strip. In it, there this guy who's kind of a racetrack trout gambler named Roscoe. He sounds like he could have been Roscoe. Rob Collie (00:11:26): We have to look that one up. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:11:27): It's before your time. Rob Collie (00:11:28): I don't think I saw that show. Jeff Sagarin (00:11:29): Yeah. Wayne's seen it though. Rob Collie (00:11:31): Yes. I love that. There are things that are both before my time and I have like old man knees. So I've heard this kind of thing before, by the way. It's called the 10-year overnight success. Jeff Sagarin (00:11:47): I forgot. How did I get with USA Today? I started with Pro Football weekly and continued with them. I was with them until actually why don't we say sometime in the fall of '82. I ended up in other newspapers, little by little: The Boston Globe, Louisville Courier Journal. And then in the spring of '81, I got into a conversation over the phone with Jim van Valkenburg, who is the stat guy at the NCAA. I happened to mention that going into the tournament, I had Indiana to win the tournament. They were rated like 10th in the conventional polls. Jeff Sagarin (00:12:23): And so he remembered that and he kept talking behind the scenes to people in the NCAA about that. And so years later, in 1988, they called me out to talk to them. But anyhow, I had developed a good reputation and I gave him as a reference. Wayne called me up excitedly in let's say, early September of 1984. He said, "Hey, Jeff. You've got to buy a copy of today's USA Today and turn to the end of the sports section. You're going to be sick." Jeff Sagarin (00:12:53): I said, "Really? Okay." So I opened to where he said and I was sick. They had computer ratings by some guy. He was a good guy named Thomas Jech, J-E-C-H. And I said, "Damn, that should be me. I've been doing this for all these years and I didn't even know they were looking for this." So I call up on the phone. Sometimes there's a lot of luck involved. I got to talk to a guy named Bob Barbara who I believe is retired now there. He had on the phone this gruff sounding voice out of like a Grade B movie from the film, The War. "What's going on Kitty?" It sounds like he had a cigar in his mouth. Jeff Sagarin (00:13:30): I said, "Well, I do these computer ratings." [inaudible 00:13:33] Said "Well, really? That's interesting. We've already got somebody." He said, "But how would you even send it to us?" I said, "Well, I dictate over the phone." He said, "Dictate? We don't take dictation at USA Today, kid. Have you ever heard of personal computers and a modem?" I said, "Well, I have but I just do it on a mainframe at IU and I dictate over the phone to the Louisville Courier and the local..." Jeff Sagarin (00:13:58): Well, the local paper here, I gave them a printout. He said, "Kid, you need to buy yourself a PC and learn how to use a modem." So I kind of was embarrassed. I said, "Well, I'll see." So about 10 days later, I called him up and said, "Hey, what's the phone number for your modem?" He said, "Crap. You again, kid? I thought I got rid of you." He says, "All right. I'll give you the phone number." So I sent him a sample printout. He says, "Yeah, yeah, we got it. Keep in touch. We're not going to change for football. But this other guy, he may not want to do basketball. So keep in touch. Who knows what will happen for basketball?" Jeff Sagarin (00:14:31): So every month I'd call up saying, "It's me again, keeping touch." He said, "I can't get rid of you. You're like a bad penny that keeps turning up." So finally he says look, after about five of these calls, spreading out until maybe late November, "Look kid, why don't you wait... Call me up the first Sunday of the new year," which would have been like Sunday, January 6 of 1985 I believe. So I waited. I called him up. Sure enough, he said, "You again?" I said, "You told me you wanted to do college basketball." Jeff Sagarin (00:15:04): He said, "Yeah, you're kind of right. The other guy doesn't want to do it." So he said, "Well, do you mind if we call it the USA Today computer ratings? We kind of like to put our own name on everything." I said, "Well, wait a minute. During the World Series, you had Pete Rose as your guest columnist, you want not only gave his name, but you had a picture of him." He said, "God damn it." He said, "I can't..." He said, "You win again kid. Give us a bio." Jeff Sagarin (00:15:32): An old friend of both me and Wayne was on a business trip. He lived in California, but one of the companies he did work for was Magnavox, which at the time had a presence in Fort Wayne. So he had stopped off in Bloomington so we could say hi. We hadn't seen each other for many years. So he wrote my bio for me, which is still used in the agate in the USA Today. So it's the same bio all these years. Jeff Sagarin (00:15:56): So they started printing me on Tuesday, January 8 of 1985. On the front page that day and I got my editor of a couple years ago, he found an old physical copy of that paper and sent it to me and I thought that's pretty cool. And on the front page, they said, "Well, this would be the 50th birthday of Elvis Presley." I get, they did not have a banner headline at the top, "Turn to the sports and see Jeff Sagarin's debut." That was not what they did. It was all about Elvis Presley. And so people will tell me, "Wow! You got really lucky." Jeff Sagarin (00:16:30): Yeah, but I was in a position. I'd worked for 12 years since the fall of '72 to get in position to then get lucky. They told me I had some good recommendations from people. Rob Collie (00:16:42): Well, even that persistence to keep calling in the face of relatively discouraging feedback. So that conversation took place, and then two days later, you're in the paper. Jeff Sagarin (00:16:54): Well, yeah. He said, "Send us the ratings." They might have needed a time lag. So if I sent the ratings in on a Sunday night or Monday morning, they'd print them on Tuesday. They're not as instant. Now, I update every day on their website. For the paper, they take whatever the most recent ones they can access off their website, depending on I've sent it in, which is I always send them in early in the morning like when I get up. So they print on a Tuesday there'll be taking the ratings that they would have had in their hands Monday, which would be through Sunday's games. Rob Collie (00:17:26): That Tuesday, was that just college basketball? Jeff Sagarin (00:17:28): Then it was. Then in the fall of 85. They began using me for college football, not that they thought I was better or worse one way or the other than Thomas Jech who was a smart guy, he was a math professor at the time at Penn State. He just got tired of doing it. He had more important things to do. Serious, I don't mean that sarcastically. That was just like a fun hobby for him from what I understand. Rob Collie (00:17:50): I was going to ask you if you hadn't already gone and answered the question ahead of time. I was going to ask you well, what happened to the other guy? Did you go like all Tonya Harding on him or whatever? Did you take out your rival? No, sounds like Nancy Kerrigan just went ahead and retired. Although I hate to make you Tonya Harding in this analogy and I just realized I just Hardinged you. Jeff Sagarin (00:18:10): He was just evidently a really good math professor. It was just something he did for fun to do the ratings. Rob Collie (00:18:17): Opportunity and preparation right where they intersect. That's "luck". Jeff Sagarin (00:18:22): It would be as if Wally Pipp had retired and Lou Gehrig got to replace him in the analogy, Lou Gehrig gets the first base job but actually Wally Pipp in real life did not retire. He had the bad luck to get a cold or something or an injury and he never got back in the starting lineup after that. Rob Collie (00:18:38): What about Drew Bledsoe? I think he did get hurt. Did we ever see him again? Thomas LaRock (00:18:43): The very next season, he was in Buffalo and then he went to Dallas. Rob Collie (00:18:46): I don't remember this at all. Thomas LaRock (00:18:47): And not only that, but when he went to Dallas, he got hurt again and Tony Romo came on to take over. Rob Collie (00:18:53): Oh my god! So Drew Bledsoe is Wally Pipp X2. Thomas LaRock (00:18:58): Yeah, X2. Rob Collie (00:19:02): I just need to go find wherever Drew Bledsoe is right now and go get in line behind him. Thomas LaRock (00:19:08): He's making wine in Walla Walla, Washington. I know exactly where he is. Rob Collie (00:19:12): I'm about to inherit a vineyard gentlemen. Okay, so Wayne's already factored into this story. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:19:23): A little bit. Rob Collie (00:19:23): A bit part but an important one. We would call you Mr. Narrative Hook in the movie. Like you'd be the guy that's like, "Jeff, you've got to get a copy of USA Today and turn to page 10. You're going to be sick." Jeff Sagarin (00:19:37): Well, I was I'm glad Wayne told me to do it. If I'd never known that, who knows what I'd be doing right now? Rob Collie (00:19:44): Yeah. So you guys are longtime friends, right? Dr. Wayne Winston (00:19:47): Yeah. Jeff, should take this. Jeff Sagarin (00:19:49): September 1967 in the TV room at Ashdown Graduate's House across from the dorm we lived, because the graduate students there had rigged up, we call it a full screen TV that was actually quite huge. It's simply projected from a regular TV onto a maybe a 10 foot by 10 foot old fashioned movie projector screen. We'd go there to watch ballgames. Okay, because better than watching on a 10 inch diagonal black and white TV in the dorm. And it turned out we both had a love for baseball and football games. Thomas LaRock (00:20:26): So just to be clear, though, this was no ordinary school. This is MIT. Because this is what people at MIT would do is take some weird tech thing and go, "We can make this even better, make a big screen TV." Jeff Sagarin (00:20:38): We didn't know how to do it, which leads into Wayne's favorite story about our joint science escapades at MIT. If Wayne wants to start it off, you might like this. I was a junior and Wayne was a sophomore at the time. I'll set Wayne up for it, there was a requirement that MIT no matter what your major, one of the sort of distribution courses you had to take was a laboratory class. Why don't we let Wayne take the ball for a while on this? Dr. Wayne Winston (00:21:05): I'm not very mechanically inclined. I got a D in wood shop and a D in metal shop. Jeff's not very mechanically inclined either. We took this lab class and we were trying to figure out identifying a coin based on the sound waves it would produce under the Scylla scope. And so the first week, we couldn't get the machine to work. And the professor said, "Turn it on." And so we figured that step out and the next week, the machine didn't work. He said, "Plug it in." Jeff can take it from there. Jeff Sagarin (00:21:46): It didn't really fit the mathematical narrative exactly of what metals we knew were in the coin. But then I noticed, nowadays we'd probably figure out this a reason. If we multiplied our answers by something like 100 pi, we got the right numbers. So they were correctly proportional. So we just multiplied our answers by 100 pi and said, "As you can see, it's perfectly deducible." Rob Collie (00:22:14): There's a YouTube video that we should probably link that is crazy. It shows that two boxes on a frictionless surface a simulation and the number of times that they collide, when you slide them towards a wall together, when they're like at 10X ratio of mass, the number of times that they impact each other starts to become the digits of pi. Jeff Sagarin (00:22:34): Wow. Rob Collie (00:22:35): Before they separate. Jeff Sagarin (00:22:36): That's interesting. Rob Collie (00:22:36): It's just bizarre. And then they go through explaining like why it is pi and you understand it while the video is playing. And then the video ends and you've completely lost it. Jeff Sagarin (00:22:49): I'm just asking now, are they saying if you do that experiment an infinite amount of times, the average number of times they collide will be pi? Rob Collie (00:22:57): That's a really good question. I think it's like the number of collisions as you increase the ratios of the weight or something like that start to become. It's like you'll get 314 collisions, for instance, in a certain weight ratio, because that's the only three digits of pi that I remember. It's 3.14. It's a fascinating little watch. So the 100 pi thing, you said that, I'm like, "Yeah, that just... Of course it's 100 pi." Even boxes colliding on a frictionless surface do pi things apparently. Jeff Sagarin (00:23:29): Maybe it's a universal constant in everything we do. Rob Collie (00:23:29): You just don't expect pi to surface itself. It has nothing to do with waves, no wavelength, no arcs of circles, nothing like that. But that sneaky video, they do show you that it actually has something to do with circles and angles and stuff. Jeff Sagarin (00:23:44): Mutual friend of me and Wayne, this guy named Robin. He loves Fibonacci. And so every time I see a particular game end by a certain score, I'll just say, "Hey, Robin. Research the score of..." I think it was blooming to North against some other team. And he did. It turned out Bloomington North had won 155-34, which are the two adjacent Fibonacci, the two particular adjacent Fibonacci. Robin loves that stuff. You'll find a lot of that actually. It's hard to double Fibonacci a team though. That would be like 89-34. Rob Collie (00:24:18): I know about the Fibonacci sequence. But I can't pick Fibonacci sequence numbers out of the wild. Are you familiar with Scorigami? Jeff Sagarin (00:24:26): Who? I'd never heard of it obviously. Rob Collie (00:24:29): I think a Scorigami is a score in the NFL that's never happened. Jeff Sagarin (00:24:32): There was one like that about 10 years ago, 11-10, I believe. Pittsburgh was involved in the game or 12-11, something like that. Rob Collie (00:24:40): I think there was a Scorigami in last season. With scoring going up, the chances of Scorigami is increasing. There's just more variance at the higher end of the spectrum of numbers, right? Jeff Sagarin (00:24:50): I've always thought about this. In Canada, Canadian football, they have this extra rule that I think is kind of cool because it would probably make more scores happen. If a punter kicks the ball into the end zone, it can't roll there. Like if he kicks it on the fly into the end zone and the other team can't run it out, it's called a rouge and the kicking team gets one point for it. That's kind of cool. Because once you add the concept of scoring one point, you make a lot more scores more probable of happening. Rob Collie (00:25:21): Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. You can win 1-0. Thomas LaRock (00:25:25): So the end zone is also... It's 20 yards deep. So the field's longer, it's 110 yards. But the end zone's deeper and part of it is that it's too far to kick for a field goal. But you know what? If I can punt it into the end zone and if I get a cover team down there, we can get one point out. I'm in favor of it. I think that'd be great. Jeff Sagarin (00:25:43): I think you have to kick out on the fly into the end zone. It's not like if it rolls into it. Thomas LaRock (00:25:47): No, no, no. It's like a pop flop. Jeff Sagarin (00:25:50): Yeah. Okay. Rob Collie (00:25:50): If you punt it out of the end zone, is it also a point? Thomas LaRock (00:25:52): It's a touch back. No, touch back. Jeff Sagarin (00:25:54): That'd be too easy of a way to get a point. Rob Collie (00:25:57): You've had a 20 yard deep target to land in. In Canadian fantasy football, if there was such a thing, maybe there is, punters, you actually could have punters as a position because they can score points. That would be a really sad and un-fun way to play. Rob Collie (00:26:14): But so we're amateur sports analytics people here on the show. We're not professionals. We're probably not even very good at it. But that doesn't mean that we aren't fascinated by it. We're business analytics people here for sure. Business and sports, they might share some techniques, but it's just very, very, very different, the things that are valuable in the two spaces. I mean, they're sort of spiritually linked but they're not really tools or methods that provide value. Rob Collie (00:26:39): Not that you would give them. But we're not looking for any of your secrets here today. But you're not just writing for USA Today, there's a number of places where your skills are used these days, right? Jeff Sagarin (00:26:51): Well, not as much as that. But I want to make a favorable analogy for Wayne. In the world of sports analytics, whatever the phrases are, I consider myself to be maybe an experimental applied physicist. Wayne is an advanced theoretical physicist. I do the grunt work of collecting data and doing stuff with it. But Wayne has a large over-viewing of things. He's like a theoretical physicist. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:27:17): Jeff is too modest because he's experimented for years on the best parameters for his models. Rob Collie (00:27:27): It's again that 10-year, 20-year overnight success type of thing. You've just got to keep grinding at it. Do the two of you collaborate at all? Jeff Sagarin (00:27:35): Well, we did on two things, the Hoops computer game and Win Val. I forgot. How could I forget? It was actually my favorite thing that we did even though we've made no money doing the randomization using Game Theory of play calling for football. And we based it actually and it turned out that I got great numerical results that jive with empirical stuff that Virgil Carter had gotten and our economist, named Romer, had gotten and we had more detailed results than them. Jeff Sagarin (00:28:06): But in the areas that we intersected, we had the same as them. We used a game called Pro Quarterback and we modeled it. We had actually, a fellow, I wasn't a professor but a fellow professor of Wayne's, a great guy, just a great guy named Vic Cabot, who wrote a particular routine to insert the FORTRAN program that solved that particular linear programming problem that would constantly reoccur or else we couldn't do it. That was the favorite thing and we got to show it once to Sam White, who we really liked. And White said, "I like this guy. I may have played this particular game," we told him what we based it on, "when I was a teenager." Jeff Sagarin (00:28:46): He said, "I know exactly what you want to do." You don't make the same call in the same situation all the time. You have a random, but there's an optimal mix Game Theory, as you probably know for both offense and defense. White said, "The problem is this is my first year here. It was the summer of '83." And he said, "I don't really have the security." Said, "Imagine it's third and one, we're on our own 15 yard line. And it's third and one. And the random number generator says, 'Throw the bomb on this play with a 10% chance of calling up but it'll still be in the mix. And it happens to come up.'" Jeff Sagarin (00:29:23): He said, "It was my eight year here. I used to play these games myself. I know exactly." But then he patted his hip. He said, "It's mine on the line this first year." He said, "It's kind of nerve wracking to do that when you're a rookie coach somewhere, to call the bomb when it's third and one on your own 15. If it's incomplete, you'll be booed out of the stadium." Rob Collie (00:29:46): Yeah, I mean, it's similar to there's the general reluctance in coaches for so long to go for it on fourth and one. When the analytics were very, very, very clear that this was a plus expected value, +EV, move to go for it on fourth and one. But the thing is, you've got to consider the bigger picture. Right? The incentives, the coaches number one goal is actually don't get fired. Jeff Sagarin (00:30:14): You were right. That's what White was telling us. Rob Collie (00:30:14): Yeah. Winning a Super Bowl is a great thing to do. Because it helps you not get fired. It's actually weird. Like, if your goal is to win as many games as possible, yes, go for it on fourth and one. But if your goal is to not get fired, maybe. So it takes a bit more courage even to follow the numbers. And for good reason, because the incentives aren't really aligned the way that we think they are when you first glance at a situation. Jeff Sagarin (00:30:41): Well, there's a human factor that there's no way unless you're making a guess how to take it into account. It may be demoralizing to your defense if you go for it on fourth and one and you're on your own 15. I've seen the numbers, we used to do this. It's a good mathematical move to go for it. Because you could say, "Well, if you're forced to punt, the other team is going to start on the 50. So what's so good about that? But psychologically, your defense may be kind of pissed off and demoralized when they have to come out on the field and defend from their own 15 after you've not made it and the numbers don't take that into account. Rob Collie (00:31:19): Again, it's that judgment thing. Like the coach hung out to dry. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:22): Can I say a word about Vic Cabot, that Jeff mentioned? Jeff Sagarin (00:31:26): Yeah, He's great. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:27): Yeah. So Vic was the greatest guy any of us in the business school ever knew. He was a fantastic person. He died of throat cancer in 1994, actually 27 years ago this week or last week. Jeff Sagarin (00:31:43): Last week. It was right around Labor Day. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:46): Right. But I want to mention, basically, when he died, his daughter was working in the NYU housing office. After he died, she wrote a little book called The Princess Diaries. She's worth how many millions of dollars now? But he never got to see it. Jeff Sagarin (00:32:06): He had a son, a big kid named Matt Cabot, who played at Bloomington South High School. I got a nice story about Matthew. I believe the last time I know of him, he was a state trooper in the state of Colorado. I used to tell him when I was still young enough and Spry enough, we'd play a little pickup or something. I'd say, "Matthew, forget about points. The most important thing, a real man gets rebounds." Jeff Sagarin (00:32:32): They played in the semi state is when it was just one class. In '88, me and Wayne and a couple of Wayne's professor buddies, we all... Of course, Vic would have been there but we didn't go in the same car. It was me, Wayne and maybe [inaudible 00:32:48] and somebody else, Wayne? Jeff Sagarin (00:32:49): They played against Chandler Thompson's great team from Muncie Central. In the first three minutes, Chris Lawson, who was the star of the team went up for his patented turn around jumper from six feet away in the lane and Chandler Thompson spiked it like a volleyball and on the run of Muncie Central player took it with no one near him and laid it in and the game essentially ended but Matt Cabot had the game of his life. Jeff Sagarin (00:33:21): I think he may have led the game of anyone, the most rebounds in the game. I compliment him. He was proud of that. And he's played, he said many a pickup game with Chandler Thompson, he said the greatest jumper he's ever been on the court within his entire life. You guys look up because I don't know if you know who Chandler Thompson. Is he played at Ball State. Look up on YouTube his put back dunk against UNLV in the 90 tournaments, the year UNLV won it at all. Look up Chandler Thompson's put back dunk. Rob Collie (00:33:52): Yeah, I was just getting into basketball then, I think. Like in the Loyola Marymount days. Yeah, Jerry Tarkanian. Does college basketball have the same amount of personalities it used to like in the coaching figures. I kind of doubt that it does. Rob Collie (00:34:06): With Tark gone, and of course, Bob Knight, it'll be hard to replace personalities like that. I don't know. I don't really watch college basketball anymore, so I wouldn't really know. But I get invited into those pick'em pools for the tournament March Madness every year and I never had the stamina to fill them out. And they offer those sheets where they'll fill it out for you. But why would I do that? Jeff Sagarin (00:34:28): I've got to tell you a story involving Wayne and I. Rob Collie (00:34:31): Okay. Jeff Sagarin (00:34:31): In the 80 tournament, I had gotten a program running that would to simulate the tournament if you fed in the power ratings. It understood who'd play who and you simulate it a zillion times, come up with the odds. So going into the tournament, we had Purdue maybe the true odds against him should have been let's say, I'll make it up seven to one. Purdue and Iowa, they had Ronnie Lester, I remember. Jeff Sagarin (00:34:57): The true odds against them should have been about 7-1. The bookmakers were giving odds of 40-1. So Wayne and I looked at each other and said, "That seems like a big edge." In theory, well, odds are still against them. Let's bet $25 apiece on both Purdue and Iowa. The two of them made the final four. Jeff Sagarin (00:35:20): In Indianapolis, I'll put it this way, their consolation game gave us no consolation. Rob Collie (00:35:30): Man. Jeff Sagarin (00:35:31): And then one of the games, Joe Barry Carroll of Purdue, they're down by one they UCLA. I'm sure he was being contested. I don't mean he was all by himself. It's always easy for the fan who can't play to mock the player. I don't mean... He was being fiercely contested by UCLA. The net result was he missed with fierce contesting one foot layup that would have won the game for Purdue, that would have put them into the championship game and Iowa could have beaten Louisville, except their best player, Ronnie Lester had to leave the game because he had aggravated a bad knee injury that he just couldn't play well on. Jeff Sagarin (00:36:11): But as I said, no consolation, right Wayne? Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:14): Right. Jeff Sagarin (00:36:15): That was the next to the last year they ever had a consolation game. The last one was in '81 between LSU and Virginia. Rob Collie (00:36:23): Was it the '81 tournament that you said that you liked Indiana to win it? Jeff Sagarin (00:36:28): Wait, I'm going to show you how you get punished for hubris. I learned my lesson. The next year in '82, I had gotten a lot of notoriety, good kind of notoriety for having them to win in '81. People thought, "Wow! This is like the Oracle." So now as the tournament's about to begin in '82, I started getting a lot of calls, which I never used to do like from the media, "Who do you got Jeff?" I said confidently, "Oregon State." I had them number one, I think they'd only lost one game the whole year and they had a guy named Charlie Sitting, a 6'8 guy who was there all American forward. Jeff Sagarin (00:37:06): He was the star and I was pretty confident and to be honest, probably obnoxious when I'd be talking to the press. So they make the regional final against Georgetown and it was being held out west. I'm sort of confidently waiting for the game to be played and I'm sure there'll be advancing to the final four. And they were playing against freshmen, Patrick Ewing. Jeff Sagarin (00:37:29): In the first 10 seconds of the game, maybe you can find the video, there was a lob pass into Ewing, his back was to the basket, he's like three feet from the basket without even looking, he dunks backwards over his head over Charlie Sitton. And you should see the expression on Charlie Sitton's face. I said, "Oh my god! This game is over." The final score was 68-43 in Georgetown's favor. It was a massacre. It taught me the lesson, never be cocky, at least in public because you get slapped down, you get slapped down when you do that. Rob Collie (00:38:05): I don't want to get into this yet again on this show. But you should call up Nate Silver and maybe talk to him a little bit about the same sort of thing. Makes very big public calls that haven't been necessarily so great lately. Just for everyone's benefit, because even though I'd live in the state of Indiana, I didn't grow up here. Let's just be clear. Who won the NCAA tournament in 1981? Jeff Sagarin (00:38:29): Indiana. Rob Collie (00:38:30): Okay. All right, so there you go. Right. Jeff Sagarin (00:38:33): But who didn't win it in 1982? Oregon State. Rob Collie (00:38:38): Yeah. Did you see The Hunt for Red October where Jack Ryan's character, there's a point where he guesses. He says, "Ramy, as always, goes to port in the bottom half of the hour with his crazy Ivan maneuvers and he turns out to be right." And that's how he ends up getting the captain of the American sub to trust him as Jack Ryan knew this Captain so well, even knew which direction he would turn in the crazy Ivan. But it turns out he was just bluffing. He knew he needed a break and it was 50/50. Rob Collie (00:39:08): So it's a good thing that they were talking to you in the Indiana year, originally. Not the Oregon State year. That wouldn't be a good first impression. If you had to have it go one way or the other in those two years, the order in which it happened was the right order. Jeff Sagarin (00:39:22): Yeah, nobody would have listened to me. They would have said, "You got lucky." They said, "You still were terrible in the Oregon State year." Rob Collie (00:39:28): But you just pick the 10th rated team and be right. The chances of that being just luck are pretty low. I like it. That's a good story. So the two of you have never collaborated like on the Mark Cuban stuff? On the Mavs or any of that? Jeff Sagarin (00:39:43): We've done three things together. The Hoops computer game, which we did from '86-'95. And then we did the Game Theory thing for football, but we never got a client. But we did get White to kind of follow it. There's an interesting anecdote, I won't I mentioned the guy who kind of screwed it up. But he assigned a particular grad assistant to fill and we needed a matrix filled in each week with a bunch of numbers with regarding various things like turnovers. Jeff Sagarin (00:40:13): If play A is called against defense B, what would happen type of thing? The grad assistant hated doing it. And one week, he gave us numbers such that the computer came back with when Indiana had the ball, it should quick kick on first down every time it got the ball. We figured it out what was going on, the guy had given Indiana a 15% chance of a turnover, no matter what play they called in any situation against any defense. Jeff Sagarin (00:40:44): So the computer correctly surmised it were better to punt the ball. This is like playing Russian roulette with the ball. Let's just kick it away. So we ended up losing the game in real life 10-0. White told us then when we next saw him, we used to see him on Monday or Tuesday mornings, real early in the day, like seven o'clock, but that's when you could catch him. And he kind of looked at us and said, "You know what? We couldn't have done any worse said had we kicked [inaudible 00:41:14]." Rob Collie (00:41:13): That's nice. Jeff Sagarin (00:41:14): And then we did Mark Cuban. That was the last thing. We did that with Cuban from basically 2000-2011 with a couple of random projects in the summer for him, but really on a day to day basis during a season from 2000-2011. Rob Collie (00:41:30): And during that era is when I met Wayne at Microsoft. That was very much an active, ongoing project when Wayne was there in Redmond a couple of times that we crossed paths. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:41:43): And we worked for the Knicks one year, and they won 54 games. Jeff Sagarin (00:41:47): Here with Glen Grunwald. So they won more games than they'd ever won in a whole bunch of years. And like three weeks before the season starts or so in mid September, the next fire, Glen Grunwald. Let's put it this way, it didn't bother us that the Knicks never made the playoffs again until this past season. Rob Collie (00:42:10): That's great. You were doing, was it lineup optimization for those teams? Jeff Sagarin (00:42:15): Wayne knows more about this than I do. Because I would create the raw data, well, I call it output, but it needed refinement. That was Wayne's department. So you do all the talking now, Wayne. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:42:26): Yeah. Jeff wrote an amazing FORTRAN program. So basically, Jeff rated teams and we figured out we could rate players based on how the score of the game moved during the game. We could evaluate lineups and figure out head to head how certain players did against each other. Now, every team does this stuff and ESPN has Real Plus-Minus and Nate Silver has Raptor. But we started this. Jeff Sagarin (00:42:58): I mean, everybody years ago knew about Plus-Minus. Well, intuitively, let's say you're a gym rat, you first come to a gym, you don't know anyone there and you start getting in the crowd of guys that show up every afternoon to play pickup. You start sensing, you don't even have to know their names. Hey, when that guy is on the court, no matter who his teammates are, they seem to win. Jeff Sagarin (00:43:20): Or when this guy's on the court, they always seem to lose. Intuitively since it matters, who's on the court with you and who your opponents are. Like to make an example for Rob, let's say you happen to be in a pickup game. You've snuck into Pauley Pavilion during the summer and you end up with like four NBA current playing professionals on your team and let's say an aging Michael Jordan now shows up. He ends up with four guys who are graduate students in philosophy because they have to exercise. You're going to have a better plus-minus than Michael Jordan. But when you take into account who your teammates were and who's his were, if you knew enough about the players, he'd have a better rating than you, new Michael Jordan would. Jeff Sagarin (00:44:08): But you'd have a better raw plus-minus than he would. You have to know who the people on the court were. That was Wayne's insight. Tell them how it all started, how you met ran into Mark Cuban, Wayne, when you were in Dallas? Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:20): Well, Mark was in my class in 1981, statistics class and I guess the year 1999, we went to a Pacers Maverick game in Dallas. Jeff Sagarin (00:44:31): March of 2000. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:33): March of 2000, because our son really liked the Pacers. Mark saw me in the stands. He said, "I remember you from class and I remember you for being on Jeopardy." He had just bought the team. And he said, "If you can do anything to help the Mavericks, let me know." And then I was swimming in the pool one day and I said, "If Jeff rates teams, we should rate players." And so we worked on this and Jeff wrote this amazing FORTRAN program, which I'm sure he could not rewrite today. Jeff Sagarin (00:45:04): Oh, God. Well, I was motivated then. Willingness to work hard for many hours at a time, for days at a time to get something to work when you could use the money that would result from it. I don't have that in me anymore. I'm amazed when I look at the source code. I say, "Man, I couldn't do that now." I like to think I could. Necessity is the mother of invention. Rob Collie (00:45:28): I've many, many, many times said and this is still true to this day, like a previous version of me that made something amazing like built a model or something like that, I look back and go, "Whoo, I was really smart back then." Well, at the same time I know I'm improving. I know that I'm more capable today than I was a year ago. Even just accrued wisdom makes a big difference. When you really get lasered in on something and are very, very focused on it, you're suddenly able to execute at just a higher level than what you're typically used to. Jeff Sagarin (00:46:01): As time went on, we realized what Cuban wanted and other teams like the next would want. Nobody really wanted to wade through the monster set of files that the FORTRAN would create. I call that the raw output that nobody wanted to read, but it was needed. Wayne wrote these amazing routines in Excel that became understandable and usable by the clients. Jeff Sagarin (00:46:26): The way Wayne wrote the Excel, they could basically say, "Tell us what happens when these three guys are in the lineup, but these two guys are not in the lineup." It was amazing the stuff that he wrote. Wayne doesn't give himself the credit that otherwise after a while, nobody would have wanted what we were doing because what I did was this sort of monstrous and to some extent boring. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:46:48): This is what Rob's company does basically. They try and distill data into understandable form that basically helps the company make decisions. Rob Collie (00:46:58): It is a heck of a discipline, right? Because if you have the technical and sort of mental skills to execute on something that's that complex, and it starts down in the weeds and just raw inputs, it's actually really, really, really easy to hand it off in a form that isn't yet quite actionable for the intended audience. It's really fascinating to you, the person that created it. Rob Collie (00:47:23): It's not digestible or actionable yet for the consumer crowd, whoever the target consumer is. I've been there. I've handed off a lot of things back in the day and said, "The professional equivalent of..." And it turned out to not be... It turned out to be, "Go back and actually make it useful, Rob." So I'm familiar with that. For sure. I think I've gotten better at that over the years. As a journey, you're never really complete with. Something I wanted to throw in here before I forget, which is, Jeff, you have an amazing command of certain dates. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:56): Oh, yeah. Jeff Sagarin (00:47:57): Give me some date that you know the answer about what day of the week it was, and I'll tell you, but I'll tell you how I did it. Rob Collie (00:48:04): Okay, how about June 6, 1974? Jeff Sagarin (00:48:08): That'd be a Thursday. Rob Collie (00:48:10): Holy cow. Okay. How do you do that? Jeff Sagarin (00:48:11): June 11th of 1974 would be a Tuesday, so five days earlier would be a Thursday. Rob Collie (00:48:19): How do you know June 11? Jeff Sagarin (00:48:19): I just do. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:23): It's his birthday. Rob Collie (00:48:24): No, it's not. He wasn't born in '74. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:27): No, but June 11th. Jeff Sagarin (00:48:29): I happen to know that June 11 was a Tuesday in 1974, that's all. Rob Collie (00:48:34): I'm still sitting here waiting what passes for an explanation. Is one coming? Jeff Sagarin (00:48:39): I'll tell you another way I could have done it, but I didn't. In 1963, John Kennedy gave his famous speech in Berlin, Ich bin ein Berliner, on Wednesday, June 26th. That means that three weeks earlier was June 5, the Wednesday. So Thursday would have been June 6th. You're going to say, "Well, why is that relevant?" Well, 1963 is congruent to 1974 days of the week was. Rob Collie (00:49:07): Okay. This is really, really impressive. Jeff, you seem so normal up until now. Thomas LaRock (00:49:16): You want throw him off? Just ask for any date before 1759? Jeff Sagarin (00:49:20): No, I can do that. It'll take me a little longer though. Thomas LaRock (00:49:22): Because once they switch from Gregorian- Jeff Sagarin (00:49:25): No, well, I'll give it a Gregorian style, all right. I'm assuming that it's a Gregorian date. The calendar totally, totally repeats every possible cycle every 400 years. For example, if you happen to say, "What was September 10, of 1621?" I would quickly say, "It's a Friday." Because 1621 is exactly the same as 2021 says. Rob Collie (00:49:52): Does this translate into other domains as well? Do you have sort of other things that you can sort of get this quick, intuitive mastery over or is it very, very specific to this date arithmetic? Jeff Sagarin (00:50:02): Probably specific. In other words, I think Wayne's a bit quicker than me. I'm certain does mental arithmetic stuff, but to put everybody in their place, I don't think you ever met him, Wayne. Remember the soccer player, John Swan? Dr. Wayne Winston (00:50:14): Yeah. Jeff Sagarin (00:50:15): He had a friend from high school, they went to Brownsburg High School. I forgot the kid's name. He was like a regular student at IU. He was not a well scholar, but he was a smart kid. I'd say he was slightly faster than me at most mental arithmetic things. So you should never get cocky and think that other people, "Oh, they don't have the pedigree." Some people are really good at stuff you don't expect them to be good at, really good. This kid was really good. Rob Collie (00:50:45): As humans, we need to hyper simplify things in order to have a mental model we can use to navigate a very, very complicated world. That's a bit of a strength. But it's also a weakness in many ways. We tend to try to reduce intelligence down to this single linear number line, when it's really like a vast multi dimensional coordinate space. There are so many dimensions of intelligence. Rob Collie (00:51:11): I grew up with the trope in my head that athletes weren't very bright. Until the first time that I had to try to run a pick and roll versus pick and pop. I discovered that my brain has a clock speed that's too slow to run the pick and roll versus pick and pop. It's not that I'm not smart enough to know if this, than that. I can't process it fast enough to react. You look at like an NFL receiver or an NFL linebacker or whatever, has to process on every single snap. Rob Collie (00:51:45): It's amazing how much information they have the processor. Set aside the physical skill that they have, which I also don't have and never did. On top of that, I don't have the brain at all to do these sorts of things. It's crazy. Jeff Sagarin (00:52:00): With the first few years, I was in Bloomington from, let's say, '77 to '81, I needed the money, so I tutored for the athletic department. They tutored math. And I remember once I was given an assignment, it was a defensive end, real nice kid. He was having trouble with the kind of math we would find really easy. But you could tell he had a mental block. These guys had had bad experiences and they just, "I can't do this. I can't do this." Jeff Sagarin (00:52:25): I asked this defensive end, "Tell me what happens when the ball snap, what do you have to do?" I said, "In real time, you're being physically pulverized, the other guy's putting a forearm or more right into your face. And your brain has to be checking about five different things going on in the backfield, other linemen." I said, "What you're doing with somebody else trying to hurt you physically is much more intellectually difficult, at least to my mind than this problem in the book in front of you and the book is not punching you in the face." Jeff Sagarin (00:52:57): He relaxed and he can do the problems in the room. I'd make sure. I picked not a problem that I had solved. I'd give him another one that I hadn't solved and he could do it. I realized, my God, what these guys they're doing takes actually very quick reacting brainpower and my own personal experience in elementary school, let's say in sixth grade after school, we'd be playing street football, just touch football. When I'd be quarterback, I'd start running towards the line of scrimmage. Jeff Sagarin (00:53:26): If the other team came after me, they'd leave a receiver wide open. I said, "This is easy." So I throw for touchdown. Well, in seventh grade, we go to junior high. We have squads in gym class, and on a particular day, I got to be quarterback. Now, instead of guys sort of leisurely counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi, they are pouring in. It's not that you're going to get hurt, but you're going to get tagged and the play would be over. It says touch football, and I'd be frantically looking for receivers to get open. Let's just say it was not a good experience. I realized there's a lot more to be in quarterback than playing in the street. It's so simple. Jeff Sagarin (00:54:08): They come after you and they leave the receivers wide open. That's what evidently sets apart. Let's say the Tom Brady's from the guys who don't even make it after one year in the NFL. If you gave them a contest throwing the ball, seeing who could throw it through a tire at 50 yards, maybe the young kid is better than Tom Brady but his brain can't process what's happening on the field fast enough. Thomas LaRock (00:54:32): As someone who likes to you know, test things thoroughly, that student of yours who was having trouble on the test, you said the book wasn't hitting him physically. Did you try possibly? Jeff Sagarin (00:54:45): I should have shoved it in his face. Thomas LaRock (00:54:49): Physically, just [crosstalk 00:54:50]. Rob Collie (00:54:50): Just throw things at him. Yeah. Thomas LaRock (00:54:52): Throw an eraser, a piece of chalk. Just something. Jeff Sagarin (00:54:56): I'll tell you now, I don't want to name him. He's a real nice guy. I'll tell you a funny anecdote about him. I had hurt my knuckle in a pickup basketball game. I had a cast on it and I was talking to my friend. And he had just missed making a pro football team the previous summer and he was on the last cut. He'd made it to the final four guys. Jeff Sagarin (00:55:18): He was trying to become a linebacker I think. They told him, "You're just not mean enough." That was in my mind. I thought, "Well, I don't know about that." He said, "Yeah, I had the same kind of fractured knuckle you got." I said, "How'd you get it?" "Pick up [inaudible 00:55:32]. Punching a guy in the face." But he wasn't mean enough for the NFL. And I heard a story from a friend of mine who I witnessed it, this guy was at one point working security at a local holiday inn that would have these dances. Jeff Sagarin (00:55:47): There was some guy who was like from the Hells Angels who was causing trouble. He's a big guy, 6'5, 300 whatever. And he actually got into an argument with my friend who was the security guy. Angel guy throws a punch at this guy who's not mean enough for the NFL. With one punch the Jeff Sagarin tutoree knocked the Hell's Angels guy flat unconscious. He was a comatose on the floor. But he wasn't mean enough for the NFL. Rob Collie (00:56:17): Tom if I told my plus minus story about my 1992 dream team on this show, I think maybe I have. I don't remember. Thomas LaRock (00:56:24): You might have but this seems like a perfect episode for that. Rob Collie (00:56:27): I think Jeff and Wayne, if I have told it before, it was probably with Wayne. Dr. Wayne Winston (00:56:31): I don't remember. Rob Collie (00:56:32): Perfect. It'll be new to everyone that matters. Tom remembers. So, in 1992, the Orlando Magic were a recent expansion team in the NBA. Sometime in that summer, the same summer where the 1992 Dream Team Olympic team went and dominated, there was a friend of our family who ran a like a luxury automotive accessories store downtown and he basically hit the jackpot. He'd been there forever. There was like right next to like the magic practice facility. Rob Collie (00:57:09): And so all the magic players started frequenting his shop. That was where they tricked out all their cars and added all the... So his business was just booming as a result of magic coming to town. I don't know this guy ever had ever been necessarily terribly athletic at any point in his life. He had this bright idea to assemble a YMCA team that would play in the local YMCA league in Orlando, the city league. Rob Collie (00:57:35): He had secured the commitment of multiple magic players to be on our team as well as like Jack Givens, who was the radio commentator for The Magic and had been a longtime NBA star with his loaded team. And then it was like, this guy, we'll call this guy Bill. It's not his real name. So it was Bill and the NBA players and me and my dad, a couple of younger guys that actually I didn't know, but were pretty good but they weren't even like college level players. Rob Collie (00:58:07): And so we signed up for the A league, the most competitive league that Orlando had to offer. And then none of the NBA players ever showed up. I said never, but they did show up one time. But we were getting blown out. Some of the people who were playing against us were clearly ex college players. We couldn't even get the ball across half court. Jeff Sagarin (00:58:33): Wayne, does this sound familiar to you? Dr. Wayne Winston (00:58:35): Yes, tell this story. Jeff Sagarin (00:58:38): Wayne, when he was a grad student at Yale, and I'm living in the White Irish neighborhood called Dorchester in Boston, I was young and spry. At that time, I would think I could play. Wayne as a grad student at Yale had entered a team with a really intimidating name of administration science in the New Haven City League, which was played I believe at Hill House high school at night. So Wayne said, "Hey Jeff, why don't you take a Greyhound bus down. We're going to play against this team called the New Haven All Stars. It ought to be interesting." Rob Collie (00:59:14): Wayne's voice in that story sound a little bit like the guy at USA Today for a moment. It was the same voice, the cigar chomping. Anyway, continue. Jeff Sagarin (00:59:25): They edged this out 75-31. I thought I was lined up against the guy... I thought it was Paul Silas who was may be sort of having a bus man's holiday playing for the New Haven all-stars. So a couple weeks later, Paul Silas was my favorite player on the Celtics. He could rebound, that's all I could do. I was pitiful at anything else. But I worked at that and I was pretty strong and I worked at jumping, etc. Jeff Sagarin (00:59:53): So a few weeks later, Wayne calls me up and says, "Hey Jeff, we're playing the New Haven All-Stars again. Why don't you come down again and we'll get revenge against them this time?" Let's just say it didn't work out that way. And I remember one time I had Paul Silas completely boxed out. It was perfect textbook and I could jump. If my hands were maybe at rim level and I could see a pair of pants a foot over mine from behind, he didn't tell me and he got the rebound and I'm at rim level. Jeff Sagarin (01:00:24): We were edged out by a score so monstrous, I won't repeat it here. I'm not a guard at all. But I ended up with the ball... They full court pressed the whole game. Rob Collie (01:00:34): Of course, once they figure out- Jeff Sagarin (01:00:36): That we can't play and I'm not even a guard. It was ludicrous. My four teammates left me in terror. They just said, "We're going down court." So I'm all alone, they have four guys on me and my computer like my thought, "Well, they've got four guys on me. That must mean my four teammates are being guarded by one guy down court. This should be easy." I look, I look. They didn't steal the ball out of my hands or nothing. I'm still holding on to it. They're pecking away but they didn't foul me. I give them credit for that. I was like, "Where the hell are my teammates?" Jeff Sagarin (01:01:08): They were in terror hiding in single file behind the one guy and I basically... I don't care if you bleeping or not, I said, "Fuck it." And I just threw the ball. Good two overhand pass, long pass. I had my four teammates down there and they had one guy and you can guess who got the ball. After the game I asked them, I said, "You guys seem fairly good. Are you anybody?" The guy said, "Yeah, we're the former Fairfield varsity we were in the NIT about two years ago." Jeff Sagarin (01:01:39): I looked it up once. Fairfield did make the NIT, I think in '72. And this took place in like February of '74. It taught me a lesson because I looked up what my computer rating for Fairfield would have been compared that to, let's say, UCLA and NC State and figured at a minimum, we'd be at least a 100-200 point underdog against them in a real game, but it would have been worse because we would never get the ball pass mid-court. Rob Collie (01:02:10): Yeah, I mean, those games that I'm talking about in that YMCA League, I mean, the scores were far worse. We were losing like 130-11. Jeff Sagarin (01:02:19): Hey, good that's worse than New Haven all-stars beat us but not quite that bad. Rob Collie (01:02:24): I remember one time actually managing to get the ball across half court and pulling up for a three-point shot off of the break. And then having the guy that had assembled the team, take me aside at the next time out and tell me that I needed to pass that. I'm just like, "No. You got us into this embarrassment. If I get to the point where like, there's actually a shot we can take like a shot, we could take a shot. I'm not going to dump it off to you." Thomas LaRock (01:02:57): Not just a shot, but the shot of gold. Rob Collie (01:03:00): The one time we did get those guys to show up, we were still kind of losing because those guys didn't want to get hurt. It didn't make any sense for them to be there. There was no upside for them to be in this game. I'm sure that they just sort of been guilted into showing up. But then this Christian Laettner lookalike on the other team. He was as big as Laettner. Rob Collie (01:03:25): This is the kind of teams we were playing against. There was a long rebound and that Laettner lookalike got that long rebound and basically launched from the free throw line and dunked over Terry Catledge, the power forward for the Magic at the time. And at that moment, Terry Catledge scored the next 45 points in the game himself. That was all it was. Rob Collie (01:03:50): He'd just be standing there waiting for me to inbound the ball to him, he would take it coast to coast and score. He'd backpedal on defense and he would somehow steal the ball and he'd go down and score again. He just sent a message. And if that guy hadn't dunked over Catledge, we would have never seen what Catledge was capable of. So remember, this is a team th

Dan Jasper is director of public relations at Mall of America in Bloomington, Minn.Five things you'll learn from this episode:How Mall of America, as a major retail destination consistently providing first-class experiences, dealt with different challenges brought by COVID-19 and went beyond the extra mile by over-communicating what is happening at Mall of America, and what you can expect when you come here so that you can plan ahead and have the best experience How they handle protests fairly as private property holders and public figure appearances safely, and how Mall of America helped minority-owned businesses be successful and reach an enormous audience that they didn't reach before  Discover the best PR practices that can help businesses win COVID-19 challenges.  How Mall of America extended help to several impacted communities  How social media is more than just a marketing tool; it is indeed a relationship-building tool. Quotables "Go the extra mile when you're talking safety and all of the precautions in place. Go beyond what you think is necessary in terms of communicating with the guests. We really try to over-communicate what is happening at Mall of America — what you can expect when you come here — so that you can plan ahead and have the best experience." — Dan Jasper“Every year we have more than 40 million annual visitors and about 60% of those are what we call drive market or local; the rest are either across the nation or from other nations, international travel coming here, and there's no way to reach all of those people.” — Dan Jasper"We have a lot of partners in the community that are willing to reach out and help us secure this building. We had a lot of friends in the community that just showed support." — Dan Jasper"We reached out to businesses that were impacted, schools — everyone we could think of with destroyed property — and extended our help. We specifically asked how we could help them as a mall. So, the first thing we did was we listened to impacted communities." — Dan JasperAbout Dan JasperDan Jasper has served as the amazing director of public relations at Mall of America for 17 years and has more than 20 years of PR and communications experience prior to that. Dan leads public relations, community relations, social media, storytelling, tourism, and the advanced service portal at the Mall of America. He is a key national spokesperson for the mall. He also manages crisis communications and government affairs.Guest's contact info and resources:Dan Jasper on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-jasper-a962552/Mall of America official website: https://www.mallofamerica.com/Sponsored by:On Top of PR is produced by Axia Public Relations. Forbes recognizes Axia as one of America's Best PR Agencies. Axia is an expert PR firm for national brands.On Top of PR is sponsored by ReviewMaxer, the platform for monitoring, improving, and promoting online customer reviews.Burrelles has a special offer for On Top of PR fans. About your host, Jason MuddOn Top of PR host Jason Mudd is a trusted adviser and dynamic strategist for some of America's most admired brands and fastest-growing companies. He founded Axia Public Relations in 2002. Forbes named Axia as one of America's Best PR Agencies.Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/OnTopofPR)

This week Billy and Paul take a look at several recent cases. On November 26th, 2020,  Alexis Sharkey went to Thanksgiving with friends. After getting home she had a disagreement with her husband, then left the house. Her naked body was discovered in the bushes off of Red Haw. Michael Bryson disappeared from the Hobo Campgrounds in the Cottage Grove Area in Lane County, Oregon, in the early morning hours of August 5th, 2020. 25-year-old J.J. Day was last seen at 9:12 AM at Beyond/Hello in Bloomington on August 24th, 2021. Five year old Summer Wells was at home with her family on June 15th, 2021. She went downstairs to play with toys in the Beech Creek Community house in Hawkins County, Tennessee. Within minutes, she vanished. Three women were physically attacked in the last year in the West End of Portland, Maine. Other women have reported being watched or followed by a man in the car. Who is responsible for these attacks? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Romans 12:1-2. From the "The Book of Romans" sermon series. Preached by Tim Bayly.

LEO cannot overcome a complete breakdown in discipline in Bloomington against a top 10 Cincinnati team. Hoosiers lose 38-24 after gifting the Bearcats a bunch of points. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-kent-sterling-show/support

Can the Colts bounce back vs. the Rams? Biggest game in Bloomington for IU v. Cincy. Fever season comes to a close. Indy Eleven still have something to play for. Indy Car action heats up on the west coast for the final two races.

In the seventh episode of "That 90s Baseball Pod" Brandon and Gregg discuss the life of a closer in the late 80s and early 90s. Be sure to check out our sponsors!  Epare -- Reasonably priced, trendy kitchenware. PROMO CODE: 10T90BP10 SimBull -- The stock market for sports. PROMO CODE: bender Humility Chains -- Stylish, reasonably priced jewelry where a portion of proceeds supports NEGU, which helps children fighting cancer. Royce Lewis' mother Cindy has more than 20 stylish designs of bracelets and necklaces. Three Stars Sports Cards -- Visit them in person in Little Canda or Bloomington or online at the link above.  Hinterland Coffee Roasters -- Hinterland Coffee exists to bring you the freshest coffees from around the world, roasted to bring out their inherent flavors in a way that you're comfortable with, wherever you're at. Roasted each week, 10 percent off with monthly subscription.  We are also on PATREON here. Check out our tiers.  Finally, we also have hats available -- snapbacks. They're $20 shipped and can be ordered from Brandon on Twitter via DM. Follow Brandon and Gregg on Twitter! 

Chad Brendel and David Simone are joined by football beat writer Matt Weaver of Peegs.com to preview the #8 Cincinnati Bearcats trip to Bloomington on Saturday. Brendel and Simone also give their thoughts on the match-up before talking a little hoops recruiting and as always some foodie chat enters the mix with budding star Kelcie brendel making an appearance. All that and much more on this week's episode.

We're back with our newest episode of the No Dishes Podcast!! Join us in our journey covering Bloomington's restaurant and bar scene as we chat with three of the incredibly talented folks behind Bloomington's newest restaurant, rum bar, and nightclub, Kalao!! Ahmad McKinnie, Alondra Ballines, and Trent Dyar tell us some of their own personal stories, fill us in on what Kalao is all about, and give us their thoughts on other local spots including how they feel about places potentially eliminating tipping. We had such a fun time with this crew and we're sure you will too!! Kalao!

The College Football Experience (@TCEonSGPN) on the Sports Gambling Podcast Network preview and pick their best bets for the Week 3 slate of college football games. Pick Dundee aka (@TheColbyD), Patty C (@PattyC831) & NC Nick (@NC _Nick) go game by game in college football picking their top plays for the week. Will Bryce Young and Alabama roll against the Gators in the swamp? Will USC avoid an upset in Pullman, Washington after firing Clay Helton? Can Desmond Ridder and the Cincinnati Bearcats take down the Indiana Hoosiers and Michael Penix Jr. in Bloomington? Can Bo Nix and the Auburn Tigers upset the Nittany Lions in Happy Valley? Will Leddie Brown and the Mountaineers take down their old rivals in the Virginia Tech Hokies? Can Brennan Armstrong and the Wahoos take down Sam Howell and the Tar Heels? Will Nick Starkel and San Jose State grab a road win on the island at Hawaii? We talk it all on this episode of The College Football Experience. Make sure you subscribe to The College Basketball Experience at sg.pn/tcbe Follow - Twitter | Instagram Watch - YouTube | Twitch Subscribe - Apple | Spotify Read - SportsGamblingPodcast.com Discuss - Slack | Reddit Download it the SGPN APP today https://sgpn.app and leave us a rating/review. Support for this episode - WynnBet | PropSwap.com code “SGP” | Pickswise.com | Oddscrowd.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The College Football Experience (@TCEonSGPN) on the Sports Gambling Podcast Network preview and pick their best bets for the Week 3 slate of college football games. Pick Dundee aka (@TheColbyD), Patty C (@PattyC831) & NC Nick (@NC _Nick) go game by game in college football picking their top plays for the week. Will Bryce Young and Alabama roll against the Gators in the swamp? Will USC avoid an upset in Pullman, Washington after firing Clay Helton? Can Desmond Ridder and the Cincinnati Bearcats take down the Indiana Hoosiers and Michael Penix Jr. in Bloomington? Can Bo Nix and the Auburn Tigers upset the Nittany Lions in Happy Valley? Will Leddie Brown and the Mountaineers take down their old rivals in the Virginia Tech Hokies? Can Brennan Armstrong and the Wahoos take down Sam Howell and the Tar Heels? Will Nick Starkel and San Jose State grab a road win on the island at Hawaii? We talk it all on this episode of The College Football Experience. Make sure you subscribe to The College Basketball Experience at sg.pn/tcbe Follow - Twitter | Instagram Watch - YouTube | Twitch Subscribe - Apple | Spotify Read - SportsGamblingPodcast.com Discuss - Slack | Reddit Download it the SGPN APP today https://sgpn.app and leave us a rating/review. Support for this episode - WynnBet | PropSwap.com code “SGP” | Pickswise.com | Oddscrowd.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The owner of the Colts and the coach of the Pacers preview their upcoming seasons; a big merger in southern Indiana impacts the ag and energy sectors; we take you to Greenfield to profile Tuttle Orchards; new luxury apartments open near Fort Ben; how is COVID affecting the battle against Alzheimer's; two Indy school districts take on supplier diversity and workforce development; and Bloomington wants more meetings, travel and sports to come to town.

Two games into the football season and a huge test on the horizon blends perfectly with the news of Cincinnati to the Big12 which means there is no better time for the Bearcat Bounce Podcast. Brent Young rejoins Aaron Smith and Chad Brendel as they break down the tale of two halves victory over Murray State before discussing their initial thoughts on this Saturday's trip to Bloomington, IN to face the Hoosiers. The trio then touch on football and basketball recruiting before tackling the BBP Mailbag. All of these and more this week on the BBP presented by BearcatJournal.com.

Psalm 145:8-9. From the "Old Testament" sermon series. Preached by Jody Killingsworth.

In this hot Bloomington podcast ménage à trois, we join the boys from It's a Beautiful Day in the Gulch as guests on our mutual father-pod Unspoken Requests. Topics under discussion include: our installment as the Bloomington Shadow City Council, kissin' cousins, rock n' roll, and much more.This episode also appears in the feeds of both other podcasts. Support them by subbing/following below! Please, it's the only way we can get our family to spend time with us :(Unspoken RequestsIt's a Beautiful Day in the Gulch

Miles and Alex make the trek westward to record the most ambitious cross-over episode of all week.  "Unspoken Requests" is a radio program hosted by Jared Cheek and Mike Adams. It is recorded in Bloomington, IN and aired in syndication on community radio WFHB every other Wednesday night in the enviable time slot of 11pm-1am:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unspoken-requests-with-jared-and-mike/id1421455502 "Bimbo Summit" by Izzy, Sarah and Dylan is a sensual guide to serious mysteries. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bimbo-summit/id1509834228  

It’s the inaugural meeting of Bloomington’s Night City Council. This town is about to be fixed, permanently. https://archive.org/download/ur-92-pv/UR%2092-PV.mp3

Welcome to Transmissions. Today on the show: Chris Swanson, co-founder of Secretly Group. This year marks 25 years of two of the flagship labels in the group, Secretly Canadian and Jagjaguwar, and to celebrate they've got tons going on—including SC25 Editions, which features titles by Damien Jurado, Anohni, Richard Swift, and more, as well as Merch, with net proceeds benefiting Bloomington's New Hope For Families. Also of note: Jagjaguwar's Join the Ritual, a Dungeons and Dragons-inspired release featuring Angel Olsen, Bruce Hornsby, Cut Worms, Jamila Woods, and many more. As a young person exploring record stores, Secretly and Jagjaguwar served as hallmarks of quality—it was a great time getting to settle in with Swanson to discuss the labels' roots, artists like Anohni, Richard Swift, Jason Molina, Bon Iver, and more.