Podcasts about dongwon song

What happens when the world your characters -- or your readers -- first find themselves in turns out to be not quite what it appears? Marina Lostetter joins us to explore the different ways that a writer can play with an unreliable world. Maybe it means a story of scientific discovery that reshapes how their characters perceive their place in the universe; maybe it means a story where information has been deliberately suppressed and has to be fought for; maybe it's a world where knowledge has simply been lost and must be recovered. It could even mean a world that is, itself, changing as the story goes on! What are the challenges for on-boarding readers to an unreliable world? How is it different in a story that starts in what seems to be our modern real world and then reveals the Matrix or a portal universe versus a story that begins in a fantasy world, so that the author has to get the reader up to speed on that before they can start introducing the world's secrets? What role does self-mythologizing play at both the personal and the societal level? How about the pressure of a character maintaining a lie, either for themself, someone else, or their whole nation? Building these things may mean thinking about your world in layers of who knows what -- and how easy or difficult it is to peel back those layers. We also wrangle with the difficulty in combining an unreliable world with an unreliable narrator. Characters lying to teach other is one thing -- but a narrative lying to the reader or viewer is a riskier choice! It can be beautiful when done well -- but it can also be a breach of trust that impairs the overall story. [Transcript for Episode 149] About Our Guest: The open skies and dense forests of the Pacific Northwest are ideal for growing speculative fiction authors–or, at least, Marina would like to think so. Originally from Oregon, she now resides in Arkansas with her spouse, Alex. In her spare time she enjoys globetrotting, board games, and all things art-related. Her original short fiction has appeared in venues such as Lightspeed, Uncanny, and Shimmer Magazine.  Her space opera trilogy NOUMENON and the stand-alone space adventure ACTIVATION DEGRADATION are available from Harper Voyager.  The first two books in her first dark fantasy trilogy, THE HELM OF MIDNIGHT and THE CAGE OF DARK HOURS, are out from Tor. In addition, she has written tie-in materials for Star Citizen and the Aliens franchise. She is represented by DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Literary Agency, and she skeets on Bluesky as @MarinaLostetter.

Publishing is hard. Also, Publishing is Hard is a newsletter from DongWon Song. In this episode we grill them about it.

Back in February, with Episode 18.8, we began exploring the process of writing a mystery story. That episode led us into a series of six episodes about tension, and the tools we use to create and manage it. And now, with this episode (and a toolbox full of tension) we're ready (we hope!) to revisit the creation of mystery stories. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Let's take all our tension tools and apply them in tiny ways. A big application of tension might be an argument between two characters about a course of plot-important action. Microtension might be those characters arguing about how long to boil eggs. In this episode we'll explore some favorite applications of microtension, and the ways in which it can be layered to ramp up the larger, plot-focused tension. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

In our ongoing exploration of tension, the time has come to examine conflict. It can be shaped and delivered in numerous ways, but you have to know the core conflict before you can make anybody feel tense about it. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Our continuing exploration of tension has taken us to a favorite technique: unanswered questions. Sure, this obviously applies to mysteries, but consider the question posed in romances: “will they get together?” In its simplest form, the unanswered question that forces a page-turn is "what happens on the next page?" In this episode we explore how to use unanswered questions to drive tension, and how to avoid some common pitfalls. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Our deconstruction and categorization of tension continues this week with an exploration of Juxtaposition, which is a contrast between two elements that supplies tension by allowing the reader to insert themselves. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Last week we talked about tension, and promised that we'd be breaking it down into more pieces. This week we're discussing one of those pieces: Anticipation. We sub-divided it as follows: Surprise Suspense Humor Promises We talk about how to create anticipatory tension well, where the pitfalls are, and how this fits into the creation of our stories. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

After last week's deep dive into The Spare Man we're ready to talk more generally about mysteries, and the tools we use to write them. Obviously we can't cover all of that in just one episode, but don't worry. In upcoming episodes we'll explore more of these tools in detail. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Spoiler Alert! This week is our deep dive into Mary Robinette Kowal's The Spare Man. It's a sci-fi mystery novel often described as "The Thin Man in space." Deep dive episodes are necessarily full of spoilers because we ask all kinds of how and why questions specific to the writing of the work in question. If you haven't yet read The Spare Man, you might consider doing that before listening to this episode. We're not the boss of you, but we believe you'll get more out of this episode and the novel if you read the novel first. Credits: Your hosts for this episode were Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler. It was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler In this episode we interview Howard Tayler, one of the founding members of the podcast, and the creator of Schlock Mercenary. The first question: how did this twenty-year ride change you? And a later question: what comes next? Liner Notes: We'll eventually do a deep dive on the final three books of the Schlock Mercenary saga. You can read for free starting here. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler In this episode Howard Tayler conducts our interview with Mary Robinette Kowal, leading with a wide-open question: "Where did you even?" Mary Robinette talks to us about how she came to the world of writing, and some of the amazing things she picked up along the way. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler In this episode Erin Roberts very enthusiastically launches our interview with "OG" Dan Wells with a delightfully difficult question, paraphrased thusly: "is there advice you gave back in the early days that you still stand by today?" There are lots of other questions, including one about bacon! Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler As we announced in the first episode of the year (and in this press release),  DongWon Song and Erin Roberts are joining us as permanent cast members. Today we're conducting an interview with Erin Roberts. She is newer to career writing than any of the rest of us, but her contributions to Writing Excuses have already been invaluable.  In this episode we'll learn a bit more about why, and about what Erin will bring to the program going forward. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler As we announced in last week's episode (and in this press release),  DongWon Song and Erin Roberts are joining us as permanent cast members. In this episode we conduct an interview with DongWon Song, plumbing a few depths, and learning a bit more about what they can teach all of us. Liner Notes: DongWon Song's newsletter, Publishing is Hard, can be found at publishingishard.com. It's free, but paid subscriptions are available. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, DongWon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells, and Howard Tayler We begin 2023 with some big changes, and in this episode we'll discuss those, starting with some changes to the core cast. DongWon Song and Erin Roberts are joining us as permanent cast members, and Brandon Sanderson is stepping aside with "emeritus" status. But the episode isn't just announcements. We each talk about where we are career-wise, what we're working on, and what we're excited to bring to the podcast this year. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson  

Your Hosts: Howard Tayler, Dongwon Song, and Dan Wells Thanks to some last-minute schedule changes, we almost didn't have an episode for today. Only three cast members were able to make it to the session, and none of those three had the syllabus. But we forged ahead anyway, and recorded an episode about why we felt it was important to record an episode. That may sound like one too many layers of meta, but just wait until we add the layers in which this actually applies to writing! Liner Notes: Dongwon's newsletter is called "Publishing is Hard." Dan's newsletter doesn't have a name, but can be signed up for here. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Your Hosts: Mary Robinette Kowal, Dongwon Song, Piper J. Drake,  & Howard Tayler, with special guest K. M. Szpara CONTENT WARNING: this episode is about adult acts and adult bodies, and we won't be using euphemisms.  K.M. Szpara joined us at WXR 2022 for this discussion of writing bodies and intimacy, with a particular focus on which kinds of words to use for things. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr. before a live audience aboard Liberty of the Seas. It was mastered by Alex Jackson.  

This is part two of my interview with C. S. E. Cooney about her publishing journey for Saint Death’s Daughter, featuring questions from my patrons. You can listen, or read the transcript below, and in case you missed it, part 1 of this interview is here! If you have not already devoured Saint Death’s Daughter in one day, like I did, I encourage you to check it out! It’s available as a printed book, an ebook, and an audiobook, and Claire does her own narration for the audio version!JuliaWelcome to the OMG Julia Podcast, where we talk about creative lives and processes. This is part 2 of my interview with C. S. E. Cooney about her journey to publication with Saint Death’s Daughter. We’re picking up this conversation after Claire told us about how she loves to read her first drafts aloud. JuliaI love that about you! I love working with you, because I've done work at the same time and place as you, and even if I'm not super productive during those times, I always love hearing what you've come up with. Because I feel like I've gotten a lot out of just talking through plots with you, even if I haven't been writing. ClaireI Do. I Love that part. Yeah.JuliaBecause I think that writing is a lot of different things, and some of that is getting the words actually down on the page, but some of it is actually just being in a place where you can think through story structure, and what is actually happening. And one thing that I've learned about myself over years and years and years of basically feeling like I must be broken because I don't write x words every day… Which, there is so much advice out there that's like, “You're not a writer if you don't write every single day.” And I don't. I don't write every single day. ClaireYeah, it's so harmful. Oh my gosh.JuliaI have to have a long period of time usually before any project where I just kind of like think about it. And now that I've learned that this is how I work, it really has made a huge difference for me. Because I know that if someone has asked me to write a story for an anthology or something, I can tell myself very clearly, “You know we have to write a story for this anthology. So, let's start thinking about that.” And then I go about my business doing other things, but I'll be working through the problem in the back of my mind. And I will do research and I'll do other things, but the whole time, what I'm really doing is the hard brain work of invisibly creating something inside my head that I don't even necessarily really fully understand until I actually start writing. And I won't be ready to start writing until it's ready.ClaireI feel like I do that process, but I do it in drafts rather than in my brain first. But I draft a lot, like 4 to 8 drafts sometimes, so it's like I write before I even know what I want to write, before sometimes I have an idea. And that makes a whole draft before my draft starts, but sometimes it's just like this vague, you know, itch. Or a character, or even like a feeling between two characters. Like, what is that? How do you make that? Like, I wanted to write a theater story and I knew what the theater troupe did. And I kind of knew the world they did it in but I didn't have characters you know like the troupe was almost like an entity but somebody still has to tell the story. There has to actually be a plot. And these elements of this theater troupe that does this thing in a world that does this thing… those were like the tensions grinding against each other. So I had the 2 major tensions, but what are the pieces at play within those tensions? And I didn't know that until I started, you know, wrote the first line, which came out of nowhere.JuliaRight? yeah.ClaireAnd then I figured my way through from there. But it's funny how much you can do with 2 grinding tensions. JuliaI mean, yes, as the actress said to the bishop. You can count on me for that 12-year-old humor. ClaireLOL. Anytime, Julia Rios.JuliaNo, but I find that for me, I used to be the kind of person who writes a zero draft that's not a first draft. It's the draft where I try to tell myself what I'm even writing, and it's a giant mess and completely often unsalvageable. So I have many, many old stories languishing on hard drives that are just like a complete mess. It doesn't do anything for me, and many of them are such a mess that I've never come back to them. It's like, it's not worth it. Now that I know that I kind of have to do this percolating thing, my drafts come out a lot cleaner. Which isn't to say that I don't end up having to change them and edit them. I do! It's just that my rate of unsalvageable muck is lower.ClaireThat's cool. You can actually work on it because you're not shuddering away from it.JuliaAnd because there's something to work on. I literally, because I tried to do NaNoWriMo many years, and I had so many attempts at it that just came out as just a mess. Not a mess that you're like, “Oh, this could turn into a good story!” Just like, what is even happening here? No one knows.ClaireHave you over have you ever tried to do a NaNoWriMo where you've spent all year thinking and prepping for it the way you do for a short story for an anthology?JuliaI think, yes, I have, and that's probably the one that came the closest to actually being decent. This was many years ago, though, and I say close to being decent, by which I mean, like, had a full story arc. And I don't think I finished the word count during NaNoWriMo. I definitely didn't finish the novel during NaNoWriMo, but I had been thinking about it a lot before I started it, and I did do a big chunk of it during NaNoWriMo. I don't remember if I did 50,000 words or if those 50,000 words ended up staying. I think I still have that saved somewhere, possibly in a Google drive. But it's the kind of thing that also it was so long ago. I haven't attempted NaNoWriMo in many years because I finally figured out that like, hey, you know what? Trying to push myself in that particular way isn't actually productive for me. ClaireYeah, that's what Ellen Kushner once called the cult of word count, which, I have to say, I mean, all these years later: Saint Death's Daughter! But it is not really the story I wrote in NaNoWriMo, though there are many elements… Like, you could see the origins there. JuliaI don't think it's a cult of word count. I think that it's a really useful tool for some people. I think it depends a lot on what kind of writer you are. ClaireYeah, I always wanted to do it again.JuliaI know people for whom they have a great time and they come out of it with something that they enjoy. And I know several self publishers who, like, a lot of the people who really are successful in self publishing can just crank out stuff and they are very prolific. They have an idea of what they want to do and they just sit down and do it, and they do that over and over again. And if you're really fast, doing something with a bunch of other people and knowing that everybody's doing it at the same time can be a very powerful tool.ClaireI've always wanted to do it again, and I never have, and I wonder why. It was like that 1 year in Chicago, and, I mean, I was commuting an hour both ways to the bookstore that I worked at. I'd come home and I remember that I would read a chapter of Jane Eyre (which I've read an umpteenth billion times) right before writing, because I couldn't get started without having read something, but I couldn't read something that I would get into too much, because I didn't want to lose all my time to reading something that I found super fascinating, but it had to be really good. Because it had to feed the writing itself. So Jane Eyre was the book of choice, and I would set a timer. I'd read for a half hour, and then I would try to do 2,000 words, and it was really interesting, and it created a lot of cool things. And I feel like I was like, “This is cool. This works.” If I did that every month, oh boy. What a writer I would be! And it made it feel possible to to be that kind of writer, and yet I've never been able to duplicate it.JuliaWell, the other thing I wonder is, for you, if that isn't the kind of thing that you can sometimes do in a sprint, but can't do in a marathon setting. And often when you're writing as a career, you're doing a writing marathon. You're not doing a writing sprint.ClaireYeah. Yeah, maybe I'll do it this year, though who knows? It would be cool. You know, it'd be cool if I wrote the next two drafts of Miscellaneous Stones —sorry, of Saint Death's Daughter. I still do call it by its old title, or just by her name, really— if I did both drafts as NaNoWriMo to start with, to give myself, like, starting time motivation. You know, like, here's the seed… and maybe if I start out with 50,000 words and I don't give myself 12 years, it won't turn into almost. 200,000 words. Maybe I could just kind of keep it in… But, you know, usually a second draft doubles. So like 100,000 words is not bad for a novel, you know. We could maybe keep it at that that.JuliaSo you mentioned NaNoWriMo, and you said that this is what came out of it. Was this actually your NaNoWriMo novel?ClaireIt was, but it wasn't the beginning. The beginning is further back than that, though I often count the first draft of Saint Death's Daughter as the NaNoWriMo. I think it was 2006. But, before that, was a short story in Phyllis Eisenstein's science fiction class at Columbia College, where there was the idea of a girl raised in a family of assassins. But it was a sci-fi story, and the butler was not a housekeeper, and it was not undead. It was a robot, a robot butler named Graves. So, before that, though… Several years before that, either I was just in college or just before college, my friend Kiri took me out shooting in the Arizona desert. We were both raised in Arizona. She said, “You're going to be a writer. At some point you probably will have to write about guns, so you should definitely shoot a gun sometime during your life, and I want to be the one to take you to shoot a gun.” So we went out to the desert to shoot guns, and we had noise canceling headphones and everything, but either mine weren't working or my ears are very sensitive or bullets are just that loud, but it was so loud that after the first shot I was getting heart palpitations and my hands were sweaty because I didn't want to hear that sound again. I was like, “Oh gosh, if this had a silencer on it I'd be a badass assassin, but it doesn't and I'm afraid of the sound. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a character who was supposed to be an assassin, but was allergic to violence?”That was the idea, and I remember when it happened, and it didn't show up in a short story for several years, and it didn't turn into a NaNoWrio novel. But the idea has always been appealing, especially throughout all the media and books I've read, and still am reading, where violence is such a problem solving tool on a micro and macro scale. There are so many TV shows where, if you don't agree with someone, you punch them in the face, which is not how my life works at all. And then like on an epic fantasy scale, if you don't agree with someone, you invade their country and you kill all of their orcs or whatever, you know? And I just thought like what if she doesn't have that option? What else can we do if you don't have that option? How many workarounds does somebody have to figure out in their life? In a world like ours that's full of violence, but you're incapable of it? Not that you don't want to sometimes, but that even wanting punishes you?I mean, I still think it's an interesting idea. Thank goodness, because it's still enough of an idea to create two more books out of, I think. And then trying to turn it and look at it from a different point of view. What does violence mean? What does history mean? What is, like, not only the violence of a physical violence, but the violence of your own history? The lies and the biases and the prejudices you've been told? The violence of your own education? How seeing the world and growing a little older and thinking about things differently, and learning another language changes your mind, you know? So, I mean, I still think that's interesting. JuliaYeah, I mean I think it's very interesting. I think that you really do dive into a lot of those questions, and it's very cool to see Miscellaneous Stones exploring them.Yeah, I think this leads into… This is a good place to dig into a question from Francesca Forrest.ClaireOh, I Love her!JuliaThat's because she's delightful! So, she says, “I know Claire's journey with this novel is very long. I'd love to hear what the most important differences are between the novel now and the novel she started so long ago, and which things have remained the same or very similar over all the years.”ClaireThe first novel, that was 50,000 words almost exactly, was very cheeky. It's very lighthearted, and the violence is cartoonish, and the consequences are surface. It's as funny as I could have made it at the time, which isn't very. But what has happened since then? Well, many things. Many drafts, many years, and also Carlos. And one of the wonderful things about Carlos—so he caught me at about draft four, so he's been with it for more than half the book, more than half of the drafts. It was about eight full drafts till it hit the agent and went on submission, and then a couple more drafts from the editor. So, Carlos did many, many things for me, but the three things that stand out are:The child, DatuThe father, Mac The Scratches, the Scratch family So, in the original, the child, Datu, is like one of those anime 6-year-old genius serial killers. Do you know what I mean? Like, cold stone killer, acrobatics, dance on the edge of a leaf. Really funny and witty, but also six years old. And he was like, “She's a child. She's six years old. She may have been trained. You know, like, you see children gymnasts who are capable of amazing things, or children Broadway performers, or child actors who've won the Academy Award, and they are amazing. They're still children, and that level of savant genius has a toll, generally.” He kept being dissatisfied. He's like, “We've seen cartoon death child already. Like, what else have you got?” So, I think Datu’s really different.Mac, the father, really different. Because he's one of the only nurturing, moral male characters in the in the novel. And I think Carlos was just like, You know, give me more than brooding male / potential love interest.” Earlier drafts, he definitely was Lanie's love interest, and I've moved far away from that. Because it is more interesting. Satisfying romantically is one thing, and what I kind of like to read and am inclined to write. But what is more intellectually and emotionally interesting now is different. And he's like, “I don't think if one's sister has enslaved a man, got her child upon him, abused him in many ways, that it's very likely that that man will end up falling in love with you, unless it's super traumatic and ugly, you know?” Like, he was just so repulsed by it in a way that was so different from every romance novel ever that takes a damaged man and puts it with your protagonist and by the end he's not as damaged because love has saved him, or whatever. Like all of those tropes that I grew up with. So he kept saying that. He kept being dissatisfied. And, you know, his best friend Maggie once told me, “You have too high of an opinion of his high opinion.” But the truth is I do want his high opinion so badly, and it tells me something when I can make him cry or laugh. Like, it's working. That's what I want. And when I make him make a certain face like, this just isn't right! This doesn't feel good. “Give me something. Mac has to be better than that. You have to make him better.”So he really turned into, in many ways, a moral center. He's wrong sometimes. But he thinks about it, comes back, and says, “I was wrong about that.” You know, he's actually capable of growth. He has such an interesting internal life. And he and Lanie become like brother and sister, true brother and sister almost in spite of everything that happened to them. Consciously, to make this decision to be family, that’s something that is a huge difference from brooding man who turns into a falcon, totally damaged, awesome, scarred, so hot, ends up being the love interest that lightheartedly, coyly flirts with you at the end sort of thing. I still have that Mac inside of me, but he doesn't fit anywhere in the future of Lanie Stones. What does fit in is an increasingly interesting intimate. Not sibling the way she and her sister are siblings, but like, will be there for you if you need me. Always, and in both physical and spiritual ways. And then, the Scratches… There's like the huge major villain, which is the Blackbird Bride, which, I actually am a little in love with her, and I feel deep pity for her. But she's also, like, she just needs to be shaken some sense into, and she's not capable of being shaken sense into. She was not born that way. But the Scratches are the villains on the ground, or at least the antagonists. They are definitely working against the Stoneses, for reasons that are both apparent and mysterious. There's the front reason, like, you owe us money. And then there's the deep-seated, like, your family versus my family a hundred years ago, feudal reasons.But the nature of the scratches… They were very much like cartoon villains, and in the first draft, by the end, Lanie had turned them into like neon colored bunny rabbits. That was what her magic did. They ended up being a bunch of neon bunny rabbits that she sold to a circus or something like that. That was that story. It is not that story anymore. There's no magic that turns anybody into neon colored bunny rabbits, and there are severe consequences to the Scratches doing things the way they do. Which is, you know, sometimes with violence, and sometimes with arrogance, or with coldness, or with an uncompromising vision. And not everybody survives that.And the Scratches, once they have enough power to do so, change their name back to their true name, and they start to live by their own standards. They'd been sort of subsuming themselves for so many years, but like the nature of of culture and language again like they kind of represent a lot of that and they are very reasonable and and yet have been part of a people who have been very oppressed and downtrodden for. Hundred years so like there's a there's like they occupy a whole different space. So I would say those are the 3 and I blame Carlos for all of them but also just like living in the world a little longer than 27 years Ah also helped.JuliaYeah, I mean, I'll say one thing that I noticed a lot, reading the final version versus the the draft that I read so many years ago… because I think it was probably ten years ago that I read a draft of this. ClaireYeah.JuliaFor me, some of the things that stood out were just how much more real a lot of the world felt. And I don't mean like I could imagine being there, because I feel like you always have drawn worlds that I could imagine being in. They're very vivid. And your writing voice tends to draw people in that way. So it's normal to think, “Oh, I'm reading something by C. S. E. Cooney and I feel like I could just walk into this world.”But the realness was more of this sort of like… The sense that all of this frivolity was happening in the harmony and contrast with oppression and suffering and what those things specifically meant and how they tied into each other and fed each other on multiple axes. And I don't know if part of that is just your deepening life experience or part of that is having feedback from different people. But I think, like, you were talking about the character of Mac, and how he changed from being just like a hot scarred hawk guy and into someone who has become in a lot of ways a moral center, and I think that I noticed that with Goody Graves as well. ClaireYeah.JuliaIn the draft that I remember first reading, Goody Graves was just sort of like a loyal retainer who was always there and liked Lanie. And that's great and cool, and it's also you know, unexpected that your loyal retainer is going to be an undead, stone, statue person. But in this draft you you learn a lot more about who she is and her backstory and what she is capable of doing or not doing, and it makes it feel that much more real and rich because you have a lot more — there's a lot more to chew on, I guess.ClaireYeah, Amal said when she read it —this will always stay with me, “It’s like I can see your stretch marks.” You know like she's read so much, like you, I feel like she can see all the layers. I don't think she ever read an earlier draft. And I'm very aware of the draft you read, because you were the one who gave me the language of the many gendered god of fire, and I remember changing that because of how you were very gently like, “I don't think we use those words anymore.” And then I started thinking about gender in a different way, because, at some point in our lives, we have to start. You know like if you don't know something, there's a point where you learn it, and that was the point where I learned like, oh, a fire god, a many-gendered god of fire makes it much more interesting and open and like less like, “Oh, I don't want to touch that…” You know, like, you gave me my god of fire, Julia.JuliaOh, that's so nice! I love the way that worked out, by the way. And I really love that the inn that she sort of ends up working at has a history of having been a brothel at one point, and it's still actually there and informs the present of it today. And I love the character that's clearly Patty Templeton.ClaireDread! Yes, I want to write the novella that's mentioned in the footnote about Havoc Dreadnought. Havoc: the life and times of Havoc Dreadnoought, and how she… like there's a huge footnote about it, and yeah, I want that to be the title of a novella someday. JuliaI guarantee you you will have a built-in readership for that.ClaireYeah, I love the school. So there's an inn, and on top of the inn is a bakery, and on top of the bakery is a school, and the the school part had been a brothel, but they leave a lot of the brothel trappings to sort of, the footnote says, to lure people into higher education. To lure the unsuspecting into higher education. I feel like some of the cheekiness of the first draft, when I really just wanted to be Terry Pratchett and failed constantly. I'd lost a lot of the humor in many of the drafts to come, and then I just missed it so much that, very late in the drafting process… There was so much world-building and backstory that I wanted that didn't fit into the narrative flow, and so many jokes that I wanted to make that delighted me, so that's when the footnotes happened.I was like, I have to cut all this, ooh, but I could put it in a footnote and then make it even funnier! So that's what I did and I feel like Jasper Fforde, Terry Pratchett Susannah Clarke, you know, I think they sort of give you permission to do footnotes.And when I was younger, if a story had footnotes in it, I would actually not read them. It just didn't occur to me to do so. And I feel like if a younger person, or somebody who hates footnotes, read Saint Death’s Daughter through, they'd still get it without having to read the footnotes, but the footnotes are the parts that made me laugh out loud. And I don't easily respond to my own writing like that. But some of the footnotes still make me laugh.And I have to say that's what Carlos says. When he's writing, if he can make himself laugh out loud, he knows it's working, because it's like tickling yourself. It's a lot harder to do.JuliaYeah, I 100% agree with that. Okay, so last Patron question is, “I would love to find out what it was like finding an agent and how your agent helps you in your career.”ClaireOkay, yeah, it's so hard. I thought when I was first setting out to find an agent, I'm like, “I'm going to submit to an agent a day. No, five agents a day!” It's a numbers game —everybody says it's a numbers game— if you can get to a hundred submissions, your chances are so much higher than if you do ten submissions, but so is dating, they say. I don't know how similar or dissimilar they are, but what I found when I was submitting….First of all, it's sort of like the cover letter and the synopsis takes a lot of eyes and brains. You definitely want to get some friends on it, especially friends who've already gone through the process. For doing the synopsis, if you have three friends who've read your book, basically what I ask them is, “Could each of you write your version of a synopsis of my book and send it to me?” My friend Caitlyn is really good at that. So I think Carlos maybe did, and Caitlyn did, and I had my synopsis. And Caitlyn's really good at making my book sound like something somebody would want to read. I wrote a very stilted like, “And then, she very formally did this thing in an elucidating sort of way, and you know there was a villain…” or whatever. It just was very stiff, and she'd be like, “Kapow! Kablam! Exclamation point!” I mean it all felt like an exclamation point. It felt like an actual back of a book, and by reading her synopsis, I saw what was important or what stood out, or like, “Oh that's what it feels like to write a compelling synopsis. I think she left a few important things out which I will slip in and try to do it more in her style…” And then again if you have a third view, it's even better because then you can have a pretty hefty, true to the story synopsis in a way that you, as a writer, may be too close to write initially. So I say cover letter, synopsis… And cover letter is much like a cover letter for a submission for a short story, where you give your credits. So you have to make yourself look like you're worth reading the first chapter of, I guess. Which doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have a bunch of credits to your name, but you just have to, I guess, be confident, or know who you are, or at least be polite and professional. So anyway. All of that to say that I set out with this very what Caitlyn calls Big Book Energy. You know, I'm going to do all of this because it's a numbers game! And I found that like after submitting one, I had this terrible headache. My stomach was a mess. I had to go lay down, and the whole day was shot, and I was like damn it this is not how you win a numbers game! But I couldn't, emotionally, make myself do more than one a day, very rarely more than one a week, so it was a very, for me, slow process. I Still don't know, if I have to do it again, how would I do it. Because it would just… I'd hope I'd be tougher now. And I'd hope I'd make better lists and do things better, but actually I think it will always be hard, and it's what mood people are in how overwhelmed they are, how much they might like the thing that you're writing. And, boy, like books are so personal and so intimate. So I would say that I sent it out to a lot of people. I got very few responses. Some of the responses I got quick were just, “This is not for me. Didn't catch my interest.” And you try to think, “Ah, I didn't catch their interest. I am boring. Nobody loves me.” Eventually, I got a great response from one of the submission editors at New Leaf, I think they're called. I loved every single agent bio that I read, I loved their mission statement, I was like, “Oh, these people! I want these people to read my book and love me!” And it got to the submissions editor or agent, the one who reads things before they send it up to the main agent, like kind of to get you past the slush pile, and she just wrote back with such enthusiasm! And she's like, “I'm going to set it up to my boss right away!”Even just that stage, even to get any kind of feedback of that tone of voice that I'd been waiting for… I want the people who represent me to have that tone of voice! And it did get passed up to her agent, and I think she even was reading it, but I think she had a baby and a lot of things.And in that interim, when she was reading it and having a baby and life was happening, Markus Hoffmann at Regal Hoffmann & Associates also read it. And he was a suggestion of a writing friend, who said, “This is my agent. I really like him. just tell him I sent you.” So that was a kind of a Who You Know moment. It was Audrey Niffenegger, who I had met once at Columbia College Chicago. We were on a panel together. She had been a teacher there and I had been a student. She wrote The Time Traveler's Wife. So we were Facebook friends, but we had had literally no interaction since that one panel we were on, where we were on a panel but didn't really talk to each other, we just talked with each other. And she saw on Facebook when I was like, “Oh, this agent quest, it's such a slog.” You know, how one does when one's on an agent quest. She private messaged me and she said, “Try Regal Hoffman. I didn't know you didn't have an agent.” You know, like, tell him I sent you… So Marcus got back to me and he wrote an email. He said, “I quite like the first 50 pages. May I see the rest?” And then he wrote an email saying, “I would love to talk to you to tell you about this agency.” When I talked to him, I just loved him immediately. He said all the right things, and in such a tone of voice, very European. He's German, and just gentle and warm and really incisive, and had great questions, and… It's like that kind of person you want on your team, that he'll be the editor before your editor gets to you. He'll be the editor who makes the draft that makes the the publication happen. So just on all of those levels, I really clicked. So I wrote to the people at New Leaf, who still had my manuscript. I was like, “I'm sorry, I'm going with another agency.” And that agent had just read it and said, “Oh, I just finished it! I was about to write to you.” So I feel this very warm radiant feeling toward New Leaf, and I think I feel like if I had gone a little further in the process, maybe would have not been so emotionally wrecked by it, I would have gotten better at it. I would have gotten a tighter and tighter synopsis and cover letter. You know, it might have taken 50 or 100 more, but I think eventually it would have happened. That it happened this fast, I think, was due to the shortcuts of going to conventions, being on panels, that whole networking web that happens that you think will never happen that it's really hard to make happen on purpose. But Gene Wolfe once told me, “You know, all networking means is making friends.” And you don't really make friends with this cold eye of calculation of what your friends will do for you someday, you just sort of make friends who all love the things you love writing and reading, you know, and then sometimes somebody knows somebody who knows somebody, and that's one way to do it. But I think the other way also works. It just takes longer and has a toll. So I would say, working with my agent is amazing. I sometimes like think of him as like a ninja elven prince. Yeah, that's the space in my brain he occupies. He's sly, he likes things like talking up my book, and making deals, and like, going to parties. Things that I don't really know how to do, and don't really want to know how to do. he has people who do the contracts like, “Markus, can you look at this contract because it's scary?” And then he'll look at it, and he does things that I can't. I don't have the tool set, and I'm so, so grateful. And as Carlos and I have done some collaborative projects, It's been really fun, because Carlos's agent is DongWon Song and mine is Markus Hoffmann, but they used to almost work together at one point. They knew each other! And they met at a house party at our house, and they're like, “What are you doing here?” So they get to work together sometimes on mutual contracts and it's really nice that they already had a kind of warm, friendly relationship.JuliaOh, that is nice. So how long would you say it took from the time you started sending queries out until the time you ended up with an agent?ClaireIt's it's really hard to say because, like at one point I had sent it to an agent and he suggested these edits, so that took me six months to make the edits and turn it back in. He suggested more edits, and at that point, I thought, “Ooh. I liked the first round of edits a lot, but the second set of edits sounds like the book he wants is not the book I want to write.” And so I gently backed away very amicably and then started submitting again.And then there maybe comes a time where it's like, “Oh, I can't believe I ever thought that draft was worth submitting. I think I need to just sit down and rework it.” You know? So it was a lot of stops and starts, and it was years. I think I started submitting it at the fourth draft and it wasn't until like draft eight that it got an agent. That's at least a draft a year, so I would say maybe four years for that one. Some people don't ever start submitting until they are totally sure they're done. Me, I'm like totally sure I'm done after my first draft, and then two weeks later I'm like, “What was I thinking?” And you know then twelve years later it's ready…JuliaOkay, well thank you so much for talking to me about this. We didn't talk about your career as an Audiobook narrator at all, which is a sort of a separate thing from your writing career. Except for when you narrate your own books. ClaireYes, thank goodness.JuliaAnd so I want to close this out by asking how was the experience of narrating this novel as a narrator who is also the writer of the book? Did you always know it was going to be you? Did you really want it to be you? And what was the whole experience like?ClaireThat's a great question, and it has a complicated answer, so forgive me beforehand. So, if I could have gotten a world class, phenomenal, powerful narrator like one of the ones I listen to all the time, like Kate Reading, for example. Or who's the really famous one? Simon Vance. You know, somebody of that caliber. Then I would totally have wanted somebody else to narrate my audiobook. But most narrators are like me, where we're pretty good. We make a living, or we would make a living if we lived in a small town and had two roommates. But since I'm married to Carlos, you know, I make a living as far as I'm concerned, but not like a New York City living. Anyway, so if somebody is just going to be very good, and I know I'm pretty good, and I know how to pronounce all my made up words. So that part of my narrating writing brain is like, “I should probably do it unless they get somebody extraordinary.” Which sounds… I don't know how it sounds, but that's how my brain works. Now, Carlos, and my mother, and a couple people who love me very much have agitated strongly from the beginning that no matter if they got Kate Reading or Simon Vance, I should still be the one to narrate it, which I fight against because there's a part of me that is not arrogant enough to think that that my text couldn't be improved upon by somebody else. I would be eager to listen to a different interpretation. It's easier to listen to somebody else's voice than my own, even though I like my voice just fine. All of that to say, when we made this deal, Rebellion seemed very excited. They like having authors narrate their own work and that had been kind of a handshake agreement. And earlier this year, as we're getting closer to publication, it ran into some snags. Like, it's pretty expensive to hire a US narrator. They have people in-house. They have deals going on. So it was almost that I couldn't narrate it and they had some pretty good narrators lined up, and I was like, “Okay, well just make sure that they call me so I can give them the pronunciations of the words I made up.”But I was unhappy, I think, in that moment because I had been looking forward to it. for two years I'd sort of had it in my head I was going to do it. I'd been prepping for it, and so that felt like a little like, “Oh it's not going to happen. Okay.” And I had to readjust my thinking.But over the pandemic, instead of commuting to Connecticut to do my studio recording for Tantor Audio, they have a working relationship with a small studio that's just three miles from me, which I can walk to. Three miles is a big difference from a three hour commute to Connecticut and staying overnight for three or four days, which is what I'd been doing for the two or three years since I'd moved here before the pandemic. So I told my agent and Rebellion. I was like, “Well, there's this little studio I work with. They do all this amazing professional production work for all of these different companies. Here are their rates. Here's their email. Maybe we could work something out.”And the next thing I knew, they're like, “Okay, you're recording next week.”So whatever they worked out, whatever my agent did, and whatever all of the powers that be… Because of the pandemic, and because of this relationship, and maybe because I wrote the right email at the right time, all of this worked out so that I could I could actually record my audiobook. So it was a bit of a roller coaster right at the end, and it was right up at the edge of time of when we could record it to have it out concurrently with the book. All of which to say that I didn't have as much prep time as I had wanted, and yet I have been prepping for twelve years at this point.I wanted to make every day in the studio more than usually special. I really wanted to say this is the end of a very long journey of many drafts and many despairs and a lot of leveling up. And yet it felt like another day. If I didn't pay super close attention, it would just be another grinding week at the studio, and I didn't want that. So every day I dressed up to match the section of the book that I was going to be recording. I wore like a different little perfume that had a note of citrus in it because citrus is the smell of necromancy in my book, and I wore a piece of jewelry that usually a friend or a loved one had given me that had to do with the book. I really tried to make it not just a recording, but a celebration of a decade and a half of work. And it was a blessing, in that sense, to record my work, and to look at it in its final form, and to say, “Ah, well, this was a thing, and this is what that thing looks like, and now it's in my mouth, and it's for you in your ears for all of posterity.” And that's something, because you know we still listen to W. B. Yeats at the beginning of the twentieth century reading his work in his own voice. There are probably better actors to read his work, but it is something to have his poems and his own voice. And so now we have this work in my voice, and I feel that in this human pageant, it's something that is super special. Very pleased.JuliaI think it's great. I loved it, and I think you're a wonderful narrator. I think you're not giving yourself enough credit.ClaireOh, but not British, Julia!JuliaWell, no, you're not British, but you are someone with a huge background in theater, and training, and also a large amount of experience at this point in narration, and you know your stories better than anyone, because you did spend all of your twelve years refining this particular book.ClaireThat's what Carlos says, so you and Carlos… if you and Carlos say it, I know that you're both more right than I am because I trust your brains.JuliaI thought it was a wonderful experience listening to you read it, and if you're listening to this podcast and you like listening to things, go ahead and pick up the audiobook of Saint Death's Daughter, because it is really wonderful. If you like to read things on the page, the text is also there for you, and that is also wonderful. But if you like listening to Claire's voice, get that audiobook. Thank you Claire and, thank you so much for taking all of this time to talk to us and answer all of our questions.ClaireThank you so much. Julia.JuliaI hope everybody goes out and reads your wonderful book, which is full of horrifying things, and also great bits of humor, and wonderful humanity. ClaireThank you.JuliaThanks so much for listening. If you want to have the chance to ask your own questions, or request specific kinds of posts from me, consider joining my patreon which is at patreon.com/juliarios, or my substack, which is at omgjulia.substack.com All patrons and subscribers get early access to every piece of creative work I commission from other creators in my Worlds of Possibility project, and your pledges and subscriber fees go directly to help pay for those stories and poems, and for the cost of my equipment and my labor, because recording these interviews, and then editing the transcripts and editing the recordings and making them podcast-ready for you takes a lot of time and effort! I am a little later on this one than I had intended to be because I got COVID again! Oops! So that’s why my voice sounds a little hoarse right now. Luckily, I was able to get antivirals, so that is fine, and I am doing better, but it kind of threw a wrench in things and it really made me realize how much time and effort this kind of thing takes. It takes a lot! So, if you have been enjoying this, please do subscribe. Please, any amount that you feel like contributing will absolutely help keep things going for me. And I’m in the middle of accepting all the pieces I am going to accept for this wave of Worlds of Possibility, and I have some GREAT stories to share with you, so I can’t wait to get into that, too. Thank you for listening, and I’ll catch you next time!Thanks for listening, and I’ll catch you next time. This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit omgjulia.substack.com/subscribe

Your Hosts: Howard Tayler, Kaela Rivera, Sandra Tayler, and Megan Lloyd The title of this episode comes to us from the first paragraph of The Name of the Wind, by Patrick Rothfuss—a novel which delights us with turns of phrase and evocative prose from beginning to end. We're continuing our exploration of "promises as a structure" by looking at the promises made by the prose of your first line, first paragraph, and first page. What does your first line say about the rest of your book? Did you mean for it to say that? Is your first line writing checks that your later chapters can actually cash? Liner Notes: We did an eight-episode master class on first lines, pages, and paragraphs with DongWon Song. It begins with 16.27. Credits: This episode was recorded by Marshall Carr, Jr., and mastered by Alex Jackson

If your character finds an ancient mask half-buried in a field, is that just a cool remnant of an older culture, or are they about to unleash a demonic apocalypse? This week, Marina Lostetter joins us to talk about artefacts, archaeology, and the interpretation of material culture over time! Some of the ancient artefacts in your world might be plot-driving vessels of magic, wonder, or absolute chaos, but the everyday objects that get preserved and protected --or not! -- can communicate a lot of information about your world's history, values, and cultural shifts. Transcript for Episode 48 (with, as ever, great thanks to our scribes!) Our Guest: The open skies and dense forests of the Pacific Northwest are ideal for growing speculative fiction authors–or, at least, Marina would like to think so. Originally from Oregon, she now resides in Arkansas with her spouse, Alex. In her spare time she enjoys globetrotting, board games, and all things art-related. Her original short fiction has appeared in venues such as Lightspeed, Uncanny, and Shimmer Magazine.  Her debut novel, NOUMENON, and its sequels, NOUMENON INFINITY and NOUMENON ULTRA, are available from Harper Voyager.  Her first fantasy novel, THE HELM OF MIDNIGHT, is forthcoming from Tor. In addition, she has written tie-in materials for Star Citizen and the Aliens franchise. She is represented by DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Literary Agency, and she tweets as @MarinaLostetter.

Once you're done with your novel or story, what do you do? Edits? Submissions? Beta readers?  Dongwon Song's Newsletter  Agent Talk (I mistakenly call it Ask an Agent in the audio) Fancy water bottle Jennifer Udden's Newsletter  Absolute Write  Snowflake Method  Query Shark  Becky Chambers  Submission Grinder  Duotrope  Latest Twitch/YouTube stream times: Monday, 12:30, AMA/Hangout Tuesday, 3:00, I Should Be Writing Live Wednesday, 4:00, Gaming: Stardew Valley Thursday 12:30, I Should Be Writing Live * All times EST February 23, 2021 | Season 17 Ep 15 (Ep 566) | murverse.com Copyright 2005-2021, Mur Lafferty | BY-NC-SA 3.5 License

DongWon Song on giving and receiving advice My upcoming events: https://lpenelope.com/calendar/ Under a Winter Sky pre-order: https://lpenelope.com/book/echoes-of-ash-and-tears/   The My Imaginary Friends podcast is a weekly, behind the scenes look at the journey of a working author navigating traditional and self-publishing. Join fantasy and paranormal romance author L. Penelope as she shares insights on the writing life, creativity, inspiration, and this week's best thing. Subscribe and view show notes at: https://lpenelope.com/podcast | Get the Footnotes newsletter - http://lpen.co/footnotes Support the show - http://frolic.media/podcasts! Stay in touch with me! Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook Music credit: Say Good Night by Joakim Karud https://soundcloud.com/joakimkarudCreative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported— CC BY-SA 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/SZkVShypKgM Affiliate Disclosure: I may receive compensation for links to products on this site either directly or indirectly via affiliate links. Heartspell Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com.

Interview with Ryan Van Loan, author of The Sin in the Steel, a debut novel in The Fall of the Gods series. In this episode, we discuss writing eight books before landing his agent, worldbuilding for a trilogy, and being candid on Twitter.In the interview, Ryan mentioned his agent, DongWon Song, has a newsletter that talks about the difficulties of being a writer. You can get that newsletter HERE. The agent's full site is HERE. DongWon Song also has a YouTube channel HERE.We also talked about David Walters' podcast, called Authors on a Podcast Talking Books, which you can listen to AT THIS LINK. To learn more about Ryan’s writing, check out his website at: (WEBSITE LINK), where you can also sign up for his newsletter. You can also follow him on Twitter (TWITTER HANDLE).Like the podcast episode? You can "Buy me a Coffee" as a thank you! I'll even give you a free short story to show my gratitude. Thank you!* Links in these show notes may be affiliate links. I may make a small percentage from your purchase. I would always want you to buy from a local, independent store, but if you are looking to use Amazon, I would appreciate you considering my links. Thank you!

In the sixth episode of Gotham Writers' Inside Writing, host Josh Sippie conducts a panel discussion with author Jennifer Marie Brissett and literary agent DongWon Song. They discuss Science Fiction and Fantasy, the scope of the genres, and what it means to write without boundaries.

Continuing a new series of Speculate 2.0’s actual play episodes, in this joint production with Greg’s Twitch channel we return again to the Star Wars universe and Scum and Villainy system, as Mike moves into the GM role while Greg shifts back into player mode along with Marie Bilodeau, Joyce Chng, and DongWon Song. In […]

This week, literary agent DongWon Song provides insights on the #PublishingPaidMe discussion and why decolonizing—rather than "diversifying"—publishing, really makes a lot of sense if you think about it. He also talks about how to find an agent that is right for your communication style and a writing community that will help you navigate a tough, rejection-ridden, and often inequitable industry. He also tells us what he's doing as an agent to amplify black voices. If you are a BIPOC aspiring author or an author from another marginalized group looking for some encouragement, or an aspiring ally who wants to help dismantle white supremacy in publishing, today's interview is for you. And wherever you happen to be right now, hopefully this gets you thinking about how you can help elevate stories that have long been ignored. Our website: hybridpubscout.com/42-DongWon-Song-literary-agent Facebook: www.facebook.com/hybridpubscout/ Twitter: twitter.com/hybridpubscout Instagram: www.instagram.com/hybridpubscoutpod/ Our newsletter: eepurl.com/gfajR9 [PERK ALERT] Sign up for our newsletter and get access to our new free tool: The HPS Guide to Picking Your Publishing Path. This nifty tool aims to help you gear up for the frontier between traditional and indie publishing, and deciding which of the two is right for you. Get it right here: https://mailchi.mp/da9486666cc5/hps-guide-publishing-path

Continuing a new series of Speculate 2.0’s actual play episodes, in this joint production with Greg’s Twitch channel we return again to the Star Wars universe and Scum and Villainy system, as Mike moves into the GM role while Greg shifts back into player mode along with Marie Bilodeau, Joyce Chng, and DongWon Song. In […]

Beginning a new series of Speculate 2.0’s actual play episodes, in this joint production with Greg’s Twitch channel we return again to the Star Wars universe and Scum and Villainy system, as Mike moves into the GM role while Greg shifts back into player mode along with Marie Bilodeau, Joyce Chng, and DongWon Song. In […]

Ten minutes with... is a special series presented by Coode Street that sees readers and booklovers from around the world talk about what they're reading right now and what's getting them through these difficult times. Today Jonathan spends a bit more than ten minutes talking to literary agent and editor DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Literary Agency -- whose newsletter Publishing is Hard is essential reading -- about publishing during the pandemic, coping with being an involuntary voluntary shut-in, what he's reading and working on, and much more. Books mentioned include: The Sin in the Steel by Ryan Van Loan Savage Legion by Matt Wallace The City We Became by N.K. Jemisin Burn Our Bodies Down by Rory Power This Mortal Coil by Emily Suvada Men Explain Things to Me by Rebecca Solnit A Paradise Built in Hell by Rebecca Solnit      

Literary agent DongWon Song joins the Lit Service crew to chat about what authors can do to get an agent's attention and why some stories work and some don't. DongWon Song is an agent at Howard Morhaim Literary Agency representing science fiction and fantasy for adults, young adult, and middle grade readers as well as select non-fiction. He was formerly an editor at Orbit and a product manager for the ebook startup, Zola Books and has taught as an adjunct instructor in the publishing program at Portland State University. He lives in Brooklyn, NY.

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and the final episode of Agents Week!  For Part Three we got we spoke with three more agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent.  This time we’re chatting with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri who share stories, wisdom, and anecdotes about their paths to signing with a Literary Agent. You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and everyone, let’s be real, we’re two games into it and the Giants’ season is over.  Kaelyn would appreciate your support while she waits for hockey season to start. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast And check out this episode’s interviewees! J. Hackwith   Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/   https://www.amandahackwith.com https://twitter.com/ajhackwith   The Library of the Unwritten https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/   ===     Jennifer Mace   Represented by Kurestin Armada https://twitter.com/kurestinarmada of PS Literary https://www.psliterary.com/   https://www.englishmace.com http://twitter.com/englishmace   https://www.englishmace.com/fiction/ http://betheserpent.podbean.com/   ===   Nino Cipri   Represented by DongWon Song http://www.dongwonsong.com/ of HMLA http://www.morhaimliterary.com/   https://ninocipri.com/ https://twitter.com/ninocipri   Homesick: https://www.dzancbooks.org/our-books/homesick   Finna: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250245724     Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. And when I say another, it's because this is the third one this week. Rekka:00:10   And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:13   I think my name is just third episode. No, I am Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor, Parvus Press. Why did we do this? Rekka:00:21   Hey, you know what? We're going to be so glad when it's done. Kaelyn:00:24   It is good because these were, these were great interviews. So this is the second episode, um, of interviews with. Rekka:00:29   Interviews with authors - Kaelyn:00:29   Interviews with agented authors. So, you know, first episode, if you missed that one, go back and take a listen to that. The, uh, September, Rekka:00:39   How should we even know? Kaelyn:00:39   [laughs] What day is it? Rekka:00:41   Is it September? Kaelyn:00:42   The September 17th episode. Rekka:00:43   Which was with Caitlin McDonald, the Agent. Kaelyn:00:46   Yes. Rekka:00:47   And then on the 18th, yesterday we spoke with Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes, and Caitlin Starling. And today we are speaking with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri. Kaelyn:00:57   Yes. So, um, second episode of agented author interviews. Uh, you know, how they got them, what, Rekka:01:03   Yeah. Rounding out the experiences that we gathered of people who found agents and then those agents are helping them or have helped them find a home for their manuscript. Kaelyn:01:13   Yeah. And um, some good insights here. Yeah. I think in this set of interviews. So, um, we'll stop talking now because I don't know - Rekka:01:21   To talk. Kaelyn:01:23   Words. Um, so everyone, uh, we hope you enjoy and um, so next week will be the last episode of Submissions September and uh, we're going to be doing what is going on, on the other side of things. Rekka:01:35   Kaelyn's side. Kaelyn:01:35   My side. Rekka:01:36   Yes. Kaelyn:01:36   [laughs evily] You are in my realm now. Rekka:01:41   Well not now. Next week. Kaelyn:01:42   Next week. Yeah. Fair. All right. Well thanks everyone so much for listening and bearing with us through all of this. Enjoy the episode. Music:01:57   [music] AJ:       02:04   I'm Amanda. I write as AJ Hackworth. I have a contemporary fantasy coming out October 1st with Ace called The Library of the Unwritten, I tend to write about mythical stuff and gods and sarcastic and families and all that good kind of good staff. I also have two Scifi romances out as Ada Harper. Um, they both came out last year and the first one is a Conspiracy of Whispers. Rekka:02:29   Cool. And you are represented by an agent. Um, you want to say who and tell us, uh, how you found this agent and why you chose them. AJ:       02:40   Sure. I represented by Caitlin McDonald at the Donald Mass literary agency. I, I found Caitlin via tumbler. That's really what made me, made me reach out with her because she seemed to have a lot of the same interests in likes and fandom interests that I did. I so I thought that she would jive on my writing style and so I reached out to her, um, through the slush pile. Basically I just like queried her and was coming up through the slush. It kind of funny because she had my, full of my book, for 10 months, 11 months. It was a long process. I had actually like had like given up and thrown in the towel and it's never going to happen. And I had pitched the most ridiculous romance I could think of to a Karina Press. And then an offer from them came first, uh, just about the same. It's just about the same time that Caitlin was getting back to me about the full, I'm making an offer. So, uh, it was kind of a weird deal that the book that I queried her with, with not actually the first book that came out, but it's been fantastic. Rekka:03:44   Awesome. Very cool. Okay. When you interact with your agent versus, um, when you interact directly with the editor, with your publisher, um, how would you describe one versus the other and when do you go through Caitlin and when do you go through your editor? AJ:       04:02   I tend to go through Cait, went through Caitlin, whenever there's a disagreement, especially if it's one that's a delicate negotiations, delicate to navigate. Um, I like my relationship with the editor should, uh, is, should usually be in the positive and I cc Caitlin on everything. But if there's something that actually needs to be pushed back on or negotiated with, I definitely sometimes let Caitlin trace the language of that just so she has control of that navigation and I can just be the fun one. Rekka:04:35   She's the bad cop. That was one thing she said. So that's, it's good that you're, um, you're using all the tools you have correctly. It sounds like. AJ:       04:43   Well, you know that takes, that's something you have to learn too. Cause like when I first signed, when we were going through the first uh romances, I was more hesitant. I didn't want to bug my agent. Um, which is a common thing that new writers feel like, you know, you, it's a, it's a change in relationship. Cause when you're querying, you feel like you're trying to impress them and get them to like you and stuff. But then when you are, have signed with them, your business partners and that sometimes is a switch for a lot of writers that they are too hesitant to contact their agent when things come up. Um, and so it took a few times of Caitlin gently say, I should cc me on this. Let me, let me handle this. Um, before I understood, um, how before you look at her communication style and how to make that a real partnership. Rekka:05:28   Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now. What about before, um, you had the book on contract to a publisher, um, editing, um, pitching, like getting the, the submissions ready. What was the process with your agent in that regard? AJ:       05:45   Um Caitlin's very nice editorial level. Um, for my, for my tastes, we did line edit, we did developmental edit and then a line edit, um, before we put it on submission. Um, and that was just about the right level for me. I think we got it in a really good place and she had, she, she had her, her touches on enough that I felt like, um, it was strong going out into submission. Um, and then when we'er on submission, you know, it's so important to know your communication style with the mission cause it's a nerve wracking process. And I like, you know, when we went on submission I asked Caitlin at the beginning of it is like, whether it's good news or bad news, I just want to update at least once a month. And it can just be a summary. I don't need the specifics because I wanted those people that the rejection language will stick in your brain forever. And you of course, you forget the good stuff people say. So that worked out really well as soon as she just, you know, gave me a monthly summary of where we were at in the process. Rekka:06:42   Okay, cool. So did you work together on um, putting the submission package together? Um, in terms of coming up with the language that you use to pitch the book to the editors? AJ:       06:54   It was pretty hands off. Caitlin came up with all of that. Um, we discussed just basically, um, she gave me a list of which houses she was going to approach in this round. Um, and and kind of the vague genre of how we're pitching this book. Um, you know, like, you know, contemporary, literary, smart commercial, all those different types. So we really had a basic discussion, but Caitlin really ran with it past that point, which is great. [laughs] This whole, you already had to query the book once.   Rekka:07:25   Right. You don't want to do it again. AJ:       07:26   Well, magic in itself, the whole submission process. So I'm glad to let an expert have the final say of those things. Rekka:07:33   Okay, great. So it sounds like you feel like you're in good hands. AJ:                   Yeah, it's been good. Rekka:07:38   Awesome. So if you were talking to, uh, an author who was looking for an agent, what are some tips that you would give that author as far as, uh, whatever part you feel like maybe people have misconceptions with before they get into it? Um, either with the querying, with finding the agent, with negotiating, et cetera. AJ:       08:01   I think querying, um, you just, you gotta be patient, it's a long, long process and um, there's some great guides out there. I think I found, you know, after I signed as agent was the area where there's not as much information and, and resources for people for how this should go and go. I think the biggest advice I would give is to start as you intend to go on, which you know, how you want to communicate and establish that early on with an agent. And if you're wondering whether you should email your agent about something or whether, whether it's okay to email them about something, the answer is yes. Rekka:08:37   Fantastic. There's that power balance. It must be difficult to say like, okay, now, like that power balance is more like we're partners in this now and the power struggle and that you feel when you're querying doesn't evaporate inside your head. AJ:       08:56   Yeah. And it was, it was really, it was, it was a, a tough transition, especially for me because we went right from signing her representation and to negotiating a contract for the romances. Um, so we didn't have that like getting to know you build up of, of um, the editorial process. I joke with Caitlin that I knew we, we broke the ice right away when like my second email to her was, uh, talking about fanfic tropes and how my book shouldn't like have any ref- You know, my joke is like when they're in my email included en-preg in the second email, you knew it was a [laughs] Rekka:09:32   Well that's awesome because I mean, so everyone knows the Caitlin is human now, but she promises us that all agents are, and it does sound like once you get past this strange like, um, professional dance that there is a chance to just like relax and get into the relationship and get to work. AJ:       09:51   Yeah, and I, and I think also one of the things I've seen with a bunch of my friends uh getting agents as well is that your relationship is going to be unique to that agent if you're not best buddies. And tweeting memes at your agent all day, that's okay too. Like, you know, I have a pretty, I mean Caitlin and I have a great relationship but we just keep it pretty professional. You know, I'm not tweeting her about, you know, whatever the Internet's on about current time. Um, whereas other other agents I know like our, our, like our, our much more, much more of a friendship relationship with their, their clients. And so it just depends on the agent and depends on the author. And there's no wrong way to have a relationship we've had with an agent as long as it's the right way for you, Rekka:10:36   For both sides to, yeah, definitely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And um, why don't you give us your pitch for The Library. AJ:       10:44   Sure. The Library of the Unwritten is the story of the Librarian of the Unwritten Wing, which is the library of all the books that were never quite written. All the stories that were never quite told and it happened to be located in hell Rekka:10:57   Exactly where they go when I failed to write that book. Right? AJ:       11:02   It can feel that way for the author that it's definitely a fantasy about, um, books and writers and readers and also about regret and what happens when your story fails to start. Rekka:11:14   Awesome. So everyone get out there and grab a copy. Thank you, Amanda for joining us today. And um, good luck with everything that you're working on. AJ:       11:24   Thank you very much. It's been great to be here. Macey:11:29   I'm Jennifer Maca. I go by Macy and I am a fantasy author, short story writer, poet and podcaster based out of the Pacific northwest. Despite my accent. Kaelyn:11:42   Wait, that's not what everyone sounds like up there? Macey:11:44   It absolutely is. This is what happens when you move to Seattle. This is the secret. They don't want you to know. Kaelyn:11:49   It's because of the coffee. Macey:11:49   And the rain, I feel. I feel like the rain, helps like really get you in character. Kaelyn:11:55   Gotcha. Well thank you so much for uh, taking some time to talk to us. Macey:12:01   So I'm represented by Kurestin Armada of PA Literary and I guess I have a somewhat normal journey to getting an agent. You know, I did actually query uh, I didn't have an agent descend from the sky and pluck me from Twitter, but I guess it kind of starts with, I went to a workshop called Viable Paradise in 2016 and that was kinda my first step along the road to trying to become a professional author. Right? I had all of these books that I'd been writing for years, but I didn't really know what to do with them. And so this is a workshop that's taught by a bunch of professional authors and editors. And while I was there, they talked about, you know, the query process and that really helped me get together what I wanted to say about my book. And so I actually decided to go out querying with the book that wasn't the one I brought to Viable Paradise because I had two books in my back pocket. And you know, who doesn't? Umm - Kaelyn:13:06   It's, it's very true. I, Macey:13:10   I accidentally did NaNoWriMo every year for eight years running before I decided to try to get published. Kaelyn:13:17   Wait, how does this one accidentally do NaNoWriMo? Macey:13:20   I mean, I kind of describe what I was writing. Like back then as I wasn't trying to write books, I was kind of just like textually role-playing. Kaelyn:13:28   Okay. Macey:13:29   Just I wanted to have adventures and makeup adventures to go on, you know? Kaelyn:13:34   Okay, Gotcha. So, okay. So you were actually just consistently doing this and then certain months you were accidentally falling - okay. All right. Macey::           13:43   Yeah, yeah. Kaelyn:13:44   That's, that's wonderful. I love it. Macey:13:47   I decided that I was going to start querying in sort of March, 2017 and I had won in an auction, a query critique with someone who used to be an agent. Yeah. It was super great. It was a Amy Boggs and she did really great work for me. But while I was waiting to hear back from her, it was actually Pit Mad. The Twitter contest. Kaelyn:14:09   Yes. Yes. I really love PitMad. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Macey:14:14   I have so many friends who got their agents that way or at least got one of their offers that way. PitMad is a Twitter like pitch contest where you tweet a very short summary of your book and kind of some hashtags about what genre it is an agents can go through and like the tweets that they want to hear more about. Kaelyn:14:34   Yeah. So it's just, yeah, it's great because it's, it's kind of, I always think of maybe a little bit of a more low pressure situation. It's kind of like, it's like a market almost where it's just like, Hey, I'm here. I got this thing. Macey:14:46   Right. Exactly. And, uh, one of my first was actually from Kursten. Kaelyn:14:53   Oh, okay. Macey:14:54   And she'd actually already been on my list of agents to query because I am an over researcher. And so I had a very detailed list of agents Kaelyn:15:03   Listen, as an acquisitions editor, I appreciate the over researchers. I love hearing like, Hey, I looked you guys up online and I saw you're interested in this. And I'm like, yes, yes. Somebody who who's paying attention, you know? Macey:15:15   And one of the things that I did end up doing, I queried 12 different agents after Kurestin had asked for my manuscript. Um, because you, you keep trying, right? You never know. These things take time. And every one of them I would look through their manuscript wishlist or look through their profile on their agency and make sure to tweak either, you know, which comp titles did I pick or what parts of my book did I highlight? Not In the plot pitch section, but in the like little blurbs section below that in your query letter. And that's where you can kind of do really subtle, um, personalizations Kaelyn:15:51   I don't know if it helped, but it sounds like it did. And if nothing else, it sounds like it didn't hurt. Macey:15:58   Right. So that was in March, Kurestin asked for the first 50 pages from PitMad and then a month later she asked for the full manuscript. And then I think in late July it was, she reached out and said, you know, let's talk, which is the email you are waiting for. And so we had a really great conversation and I followed up with all of the other agents who had had my full and I decided that no, Kurestin is really the one for me. Kaelyn:16:26   So what made you think that Kurestin was really the one for you? This is another thing that we're seeing when we're talking to everyone that they're like, and I just knew I - Macey:16:37   I'm a very analytical person. Um, so I can probably break it down. Kaelyn:16:42   Um, which by the way, you're going to see, you're one of the only authors I know is like, I have some statistics on this. I've given a lot of thought. There's a spreadsheet with a pivot table. And if you look at the corresponding data here. Macey:16:57   Yeah, no like seriously, um, I have so many spreadsheets with so many like cell formulas. I have an entire automated poetry tracking spreadsheet that moves things in and out of the available to sub column based on where they're submitted to and where they're not. Kaelyn:17:13   That's amazing. And I love it as a, as a big fan of excel myself. That is, Yup, that's phenomenal. Macey:17:21   But um for Kurestin, so one of the things for me, I sent out a total of 12 queries over six months and that's a little bit of a low number for some people. I was being very specific when I was researching about who I wanted to query and I was only querying people who represented fantasy and YA and both adult and why a fantasy and who specifically mentioned LGBTQ or queer or gay somewhere in their profile or their manuscript wishlist and that plus, you know, targeting agencies that had a reputation for selling books kind of cut my choices down a lot. But it meant that I was already kind of confident. So I had a fairly short list of agents and so all of them would be really great choices. But for me, Kurestin had a lot of really great editorial things to say about the particular book that I'd sent to her and really understood what I, where it was going. And we also had a conversation about like longer career plans. Did we want to be in this as business partners for the long term because it's not just about will they sign this one book, but do they want to be your career partner? Kaelyn:18:30   Right. Yeah. And that's, that's really important. And I think that's something that not everyone thinks about going into this is this is a business partner. This is a business relationship. And like you both have to be on the same page about what you're expecting out of it. Macey:18:45   Absolutely. And especially since the project that she signed me for, which was a queer, silky, YA novel, it didn't sell. And so now we're moving onto the next project, which I'm super excited about. But like I asked her on the call, what do we do if it doesn't sell? And she says, you know, we keep working and we try the next thing together. And so that was really great to find or have knowledge of an advance and then not be so scared that I was going to disappoint her. Kaelyn:19:14   Do you actually, I just kind of brought up an interesting, uh, the angle that I think author, you know, authors, you guys are so in your own head. Macey:19:23   Yup. Kaelyn:19:23   So some of the most lovely but some of the most anxious people. Macey:19:30   You are not wrong. Kaelyn:19:32   I have ever met, and um, one of the things that you know is the I the self rejection and I the the not good enough. And um, so yeah, disappointing your agent. That's a whole nother level of scary now. Macey:19:46   Isn't it? Kaelyn:19:48   Sp how'd you work through that? Where you've said like? Macey:19:51   Well, so, well one of the things that really great being with Kurestin is we built this kind of community amongst all of her clients called Kurestin's Armada because her last name is Amato and we are dweebs fantastic. And so I have this community of really supportive, amazing fellow clients and we have a little Alack together. And you know, once or twice a week, one of us will go in and be like, I fucked up. She's gonna hate me. And then we're like literally never going to happen. The rest of us know that Kurestin will never hate you, will never hate any of us and we'll fix it. Kurestin still not be mad. You should talk to her and she will help you. And just having someone else who actually knows her be like, no, no, it's fine. Really fix it. Kurestin fixes everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm uh, she, she has done nothing to deserve being saddled with us. Kaelyn:20:57   Well, it sounds like a lovely supportive community and an army nay an armada and the rest, as they say is history. You guys are still working on upcoming projects and you know, that's, that's great. Uh, you know, the ongoing relationship with an agent is so important. Macey:21:20   Right. Kaelyn:21:20   And I think a lot of people when they sign with one are just so excited right off the bat to have their literary agent. It's like, oh, right, I'm going to be with this person for a while. Probably. Macey:21:30   I think it's really hard to get past that initial kind of gut reaction that this is just a stamp of approval. You know, you have gained this status. Kaelyn:21:40   Yeah, it is. It's like, you know, you've completed this quest, here is your - Macey:21:46   Tada. Kaelyn:21:46   Yeah. Um, here is your agent badge to add to your, your book. Um, it's, it's Mewtwo at the end of Pokemon and, but no, because then it's like no, but then you actually have Mewtwo. Macey:22:00   Yeah. You've got to have a relationship with this person who is a human with styles of working with opinions and you need to understand that and not just jump at the first opportunity because it could be a bad one. Kaelyn:22:17   You know, that's so hard. If you're really wanting to get an agent to have to walk away from something and there's no good answer to it, you just kind of have to be aware is really, I think the only way to approach that. Macey:22:34   And I think for me, one of the things that I didn't realize at the time and so kind of lucked into, um, is we were talking a little earlier about how inside our heads authors get and how anxious and I think that in order to stick it out as a writer, you really need to get to know yourself and understand the things that make you more anxious and the things that sues you. And one of the things that's super important is that the communication style of your agent works for you, not against you. I have friends who have, uh, agents that they really, really love, who don't always answer emails and have to be poked with followup things to answer the email. And I'm like, it's great that that works for you. I would have a panic attack, but I would just need curled up in a ball. Like they hate me now Kaelyn:23:27   They're figuring out how to drop contract all together. This is it. Macey:23:34   And that's fine. It's, um, there is no one perfect agent. They're puzzle pieces. Right. Kaelyn:23:41   That's, that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. And, um, you know, agents that I know and I talked to. I know even just like in my capacity as an editor, I always kind of go to the author and go, what works best for you? If you want to text me questions, that's, that's fine. If you prefer to have like, you know, regular scheduled meetings where we talk about that all at once and that's the only time you hear from me, that's, that's great too. Like I can be flexible. So let me know what works for you because if you're unhappy it's not, this isn't going to work well for anybody. Right. Um, you know, I, the last thing I want to do is be a source of anxiety in your life, right? Yeah, exactly. Macey:24:26   Righ, I have enough of those. Kaelyn:24:27   Exactly. So tell us something, either you wish you had known, you wish other people knew, something you're surprised by about either the process or once you have an agent. Macey:24:37   Hmm. I mean, I think the big one is the communication styles. I have seen agent breakups that have been in large part caused or worsened by that by just a mismatch and just how important it is to understand your own needs before you try to make the sort of commitment. I mean it's not a marriage, but it's a longterm partnership contract. You know what I mean? Kaelyn:25:03   In some cases it's harder to get out of than a marriage. Macey:25:07   Yeah. I mean things get really tangled up once you've sold your money will be coming through that agent forever for that book. Yep. Um, it doesn't have to go away. Kaelyn:25:16   You know what, that's a good point that, uh, I think maybe again, something you don't think about. If you signed a contract for selling your book through an agent and then you and that agent go there, set your separate ways, your money still goes through that agent. Yeah. Does forever. Yup. Because even though you're no longer working with that person, they are technically still your business partner for that particular deal. Yeah. Macey:25:42   They are 15% or whatever their fee is. Kaelyn:25:46   Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's a very good thing to mention. Um, communication style. Yeah. Is very, very important for so many people. And again, I think like you just, when you get the call and you're like, oh my gosh, somebody wants me. Um, Macey:26:04   And I think the other thing is when you're getting those calls and making your decisions, you are setting a pattern for yourself in how you work with that person. And you need to think about setting up a pattern that's going to keep working for you. You need to not be scared to email your agent, right? And that can start early, you know? Um, I pester my agent on Twitter sometimes and gently troll her by suggesting I'm going to write a new book where the entire plot is one Flovence and the Machine's song. Kaelyn:26:37   Um, I mean, you're going to do that though, right? Macey:26:40   Maybe. But then she's like, Macy, that's not what plot means. I'm like, I, I'll fix it later. Kaelyn:26:45   You have some stuff you have to tell us about coming up with you and your life. You're headed to Ireland. Macey:26:52   Yes. My podcast is a finalist for Best Fan Cast at the Hugo's Be The Serpent. And so that's exciting and scary and awesome. Kaelyn:27:01   That's amazing and wonderful and just the greatest thing. Macey:27:05   Yeah, I'm honestly like we, you were completely gobsmacked and amazed just to be on the list and I'm so happy with how many new people have been brought in just to hear a few episodes of the podcast and hopefully stick with us cause I'm really fond of what we do. Kaelyn:27:21   Yeah. So do you want to tell everyone a little bit about like what the podcast is? Macey:27:24   Sure. Kaelyn:27:25   Why it's so awesome. Macey:27:27   It's called Be The Serpent and it is a podcast where three redheaded fantasy authors dissect tropes and patterns and themes in media, in literature, and in fan fiction. Kaelyn:27:40   Do you want to hear three people that just genuinely love and enjoy each other's company. Macey:27:46   And make a lot of dick jokes together. Kaelyn:27:48   And that absolutely that. Come for the friendship - . Macey:27:55   And there's one other thing that's coming up. Myself, Janeen Southard and Danielle Wexler are putting together a Kickstarter, which hopefully should be out in October sometime to fund an anthology of queer ff stories about swords, women and their princess lieges. Kaelyn:28:14   It's going to be amazing. I'm so excited when it was funny because of Rekka had mentioned like, oh, and you have to make sure to remind Macy about the Kickstarter. And so I was like, and hey, tell me about this Kickstarter. Like, oh well it's a ways off still, but here's what it is. And I was like, this is going to be awesome. Macey:28:33   It's going to be so cool. We have so much awesome artwork lined up for people as rewards and stretch goals. And one of our first stretch goals is to hopefully open slush so we can have open call and lots of people can send us their amazing weapons sapphic stories and I can't wait to read all of them Kaelyn:28:54   It's going to be fantastic. A project doesn't, doesn't have a title yet. Macey:28:58   Nope, but we've got some really cool people attached. Um, like Alliette Bardard, Kelly Robson, JY Yang. Kaelyn:29:04   Oh, awesome. That's, that's so great. So, um, yeah, where the Kickstarter is not up yet. There isn't a title yet, but when there is, we'll be sure to put in the show notes and uh, you know, hopefully, you know, you'll have something, you know, we can have put out on Twitter to the masses because that just, it sounds like it's going to be amazing. So, um, okay, well thank you so much for taking the time. Talk to us. Where can people find you? Macey:29:28   I have a website which is EnglishMace.com and I'm on Twitter @EnglishMace and the podcast is Be The Serpent on Podbean, on iTunes, on Google play or wherever you get podcasts. Thank you so much for bringing me. Nino:   29:43   I'm Nino Cipri. Um, I'm a queer and Trans Writer. I've written all kinds of different things, mostly focusing on fiction. Um, I have written screenplays, essays, um, so many angry emails, so many, uh, I have two books that are coming out in the next year. Um, my first collection of short stories is coming out in October. It's called homesick. I'm very excited about that. And then in February, I have haven't developed coming out with Tor.com that's called Finna. I write in a bunch of different genres. The like kind of main main through line is that a lot of my stories have like, they're kind of funny. They have a lot of feelings and they're pretty queer. Um, but I've written like horror, I've written science fiction, I've written like fantasy. I actually wrote a story that's like almost entirely like non genre. There's no spec- the only speculative is that there's like 3 million old or 3 million year old fossils of like intelligent weasels and that's it. Rekka:30:47   That's all you need. Nino:   30:48   That's all I needed. Rekka:30:50   Okay. So with that list of, um, of writing styles and subject matter and genre, um, who was in charge of wrangling your writing career? Nino:   30:59   Uh, I like that wrangling. Um, I am represented by DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Agency. Rekka:31:06   And how did you come to choose DongWon? So I actually had kind of a weird journey towards that. I wasn't planning on getting an agent until I had a novel finished, um, which I didn't actually. Um, but in sometime early in the fall, I decided kind of on a whim to enter a contest, uh, like, um, uh, what was it? It was like a short story collection contest with a small press called Dezink. Um, and I had no, like thought that I would win it and then I did and I was shocked and like appalled and I was like, what do you need? Nino:   31:40   Um, but then I had a book deal and then I needed an agent. Um, so I turned as so many millennials do to my friends. Um, and I called a bunch of different people that I knew that all had different agents that I was like, I had been kind of eyeballing them for like, okay, when I start going out and query, I'm going to, I'm going to contact these people. Um, but the fact that I had a book deal like in hand and I needed to sign a contract at some point very soon or reject it, um, kind of sped the process up a lot. So I think I ended up, I talked to a bunch of different friends. I came up with a list of I think like four people who all represented like other writers that I knew pretty well. Um, I asked those friends a lot of questions about like, what the like relationship was like, kind of like exactly like what you're doing. Nino:   32:31   Um, and then ask those friends if they would be willing to, you know, with their agent's permission, like write me a letter of introduction. Um, and I think three of the people, like three of the agents were like, yeah, sure, just like have them email me. Um, and I, one was one of them. I talked to JY Young, um, who is fabulous and awesome and I don't, I don't really know their faces right now because I'm sure everybody knows. Rekka:32:59   Yeah. Nino:   32:59   So it actually ended up coming down to, cause I was talking with a couple of other agents, um, I had to, I got two offers and then ended up going with DongWon. Um, and then almost immediately after like got another book deals. So I feel like I kind of like prove my worth, like, technically? Rekka:33:15   Well no regrets. Right? Nino:   33:18   Yeah. Rekka:33:20   So, um, that's an interesting way to come about having an agent is having the contract first. Um, yeah, which is funny because we think about like the, the power dynamic between the author who is querying and the agent who must, you know, judge and, and accept or, or you know, there's several stages of acceptance with the agent and um, it feels like you kind of get to skip ahead in line a little bit because like, um, not only do you have a book deal, but you also have a little bit of a time pressure that you can leverage to say like, Hey, um, there's a bit of a of a time crunch on this. Could you just let me know real quick? So did, um, so normally when an agent replies to a query, they are requesting a full or a partial or, or some, um, step forward from whatever has been queried. So what were you querying with and what was the next step from there? Nino:   34:15   Like what I sent to DongWon, like the other agents that I was talking to, I sent them like the manuscript for the, um, for the short story collection. Okay. And just be like, this is what is getting published. I think I sent them the contract that was on offer as well. Um, and then I also sent them like, I think the first 10 pages of the novel in progress that I had, which was a young adult horror novel. Um, and it was just like, this is not finished. Just so you know, like just when I tried to be like very, very transparent with that. Like, here's what I've got, here's the first chapter of it, or like the first half of the first chapter. Um, so you can get like an idea of like what I'm, what I'm working on next. Okay. And then I am working on something. Rekka:34:59   And so the contract was an offer for that future novel? Is that what it was or is it the contract for the short story? Nino:   35:05   The contract was for the short story. Rekka:35:06   Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So now you have an agent, you already have a contract, you've already sold a short story. Um, so the agent and you, I'm sorry DongWon and you began to work on that novel together. Is that what the next step is? Nino:   35:22   I should mentioned that all of this was happening when I was in my last year of an MFA program. Yeah. This was, it was like the last six months of it. Rekka:35:30   Okay. Nino:   35:32   So there was like a bunch of different things going on. Um, so on the heels of this offer for the short story collection, um, the novella that was in there was originally in that short story collection. Um, I had also submitted to Tor and Tor.com like novella submission window. Rekka:35:49   Right. Nino:   35:49   Um, and which was like, I double check to make sure that I could do simultaneous submissions and I did. Um, but the thing that people say might happen but never ever will actually happen, happened to me where like I had the offer and I had withdrawn it, um, from Tor immediately. And then like Carl Anglay was just like, I want that. Nino:   36:14   Yeah. So he ended up calling DongWon, DongWon called me. We both called my publisher at the, at Dezink. Just be like, um, so this awkward thing is happening. Yeah. Um, so that was the next thing we actually started working on was something else that like was already the kind of like fell into our lap. Um, which was really nice. And so now, um, like all of that had to be kind of like taken care of. I edited, finished up. Um, so now I'm trying to finish up like revisions on my novel. Um, I finished the first draft. I think this was also my like masters thesis. So I finished the first draft sometime in April I think, and then sends it on to him and like we made a revision plan and yeah, that's what we're working on now. Rekka:37:01   Okay. Alright. So the novels that you have, the books, um, I didn't catch the length that you have coming out in the future. Are these different? Nino:   37:11   Yeah, the short story collection, one novella. And I'm trying to work on a novel and like also there's like a screenplay that's like way over there that I think I was just going to be like, can you just make it fiction? Rekka:37:23   So, um, how is working with DongWon on your novel versus working on the contracts and all the business like communications. Nino:   37:32   So with the other two manuscripts, he was fairly hands off. Um, when we were talking about like, uh, trying to like maneuver one Novella into Tor's hands and then like another novella to this to, to Dezank. Um, he read the like replacement novella cause I was like, you know, this is a pretty rough draft. I didn't, you know, it needs another couple of revisions for sure. Do you want to read it and let me know what you think of it? Like here's my thoughts about it. Um, so he gave me like, he was mostly just like, yeah, I think I agree with basically everything that you, you know, all of your instincts on what through revise are good in my opinion. Um, but he also knew that like, uh, the editor at design would have like a lot more, um, specific feedback. Nino:   38:19   So he was like, here's like the kind of like big picture stuff that I think too you need to work on. Um, the novella, like, because it was already thought, like he was just like, you know, didn't really have any, anything to really say about that one I don't think cause you knew like Carl would be Carl Anglered at Tor would have, you know, his own feedback that he would want implemented. Um, with the novel. He read it and he like, we met for drinks and he was like, okay, we've got like basically one of four ways that you can revise this. Like, and was really good at just trying to figure out first like, what was my vision of this book? Like what did I actually think this was about? And ones that I want it to be. Um, you know, he's like, is this an adult horror novel? Is this young adult or is this about trauma? Um, and it was like we figured out there's like, we like what it was and then how to get it closer to that. Rekka:39:11   Okay, great. So that was all over drinks. You just like hashed it out in person? Nino:   39:15   Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, I, and he said that because he said he wanted to do that because he could tell like there was different directions that it could be, it could go, um, like, and that is easier to figure out in person rather than like over email. Sure. And you don't really appreciate cause yeah, yeah. Email him that. Rekka:39:35   Well plus the back and forth, the time lag and then trying to phrase things correctly without the context of facial expression and volume and enthusiasm is, is different. Okay. Nino:   39:47   When I first signed with him, I was living in Kansas. I'm attempting to move to New York. I have, I'm trying to find a job here. Rekka:39:54   Oh, okay. Nino:   39:55   - permanently, but yeah. Um, even before my partner Nibs lives here, so I was here pretty regularly, like every, I've maybe every other month. Rekka:40:04   Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't out of your way. It wasn't like come to this expensive conference and then we'll meet and have this, have this meeting. So that's good. Awesome. How often would you say you check in with DongWon? Nino:   40:17   Hmm. He's good at like telling me the things that I need to know. But he also, I think respects the fact that I'm like, you know, we're both very busy people. I'm trying to find a job. He has a bunch of, he's got like several other clients and travels a lot. Yeah. Um, we check in like fairly regularly. I would say like maybe once a month, twice a month, something like that. And he'll send me updates on things like, you know, oh, there was film interest in this thing. Um, I'm just going to let you know. And also here's what you should maybe expect out of that. Which of course was not much, but it's nice. Consider it a complement. Rekka:40:54   Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So if someone you knew was in your position where you were after you won this contest or, um, in the position of somebody who hadn't won anything for, um, their writing yet, but was looking for an agent to represent their work, would you have any tips for that person, what they could expect or what, what you would recommend they do? Nino:   41:15   So in this, I would say like definitely if you have a community like if you know other writers like talk to them about their agents, talk to them about, um, like what are the reasons like that I signed with them. Like what were their expectations going in versus what, um, you, they've learned since then. Like what the reality actually is. Um, and like I and I, I actually have like talked to some people like who are going out, like starting to query it and I'm just like, you should absolutely do what I did. Absolutely. Get your friends for at you like introduction. Rekka:41:49   Yeah. Nino:   41:50   Your friends are willing to and their agents are okay with it. Like right there. Right. Get them to write you introductions. Like, I feel like anything that can kind of like put you a little bit ahead is helpful. Um, and I don't think it's like breaking the rules at least as far as I know. Maybe there are rules, but like, like nobody told me that when I was starting. Rekka:42:10   So, so your tip is, um, no, no rules and just go forward. Nino:   42:15   Well, and I think too, like agents, especially ones that are trying to find like build their client base are really good at like trying to make themselves accessible in various ways with DongWon, like I know that he's really active and like going to cons and like, um, talking to new writers and doing all of these things. So if that opportunity presents itself to like talk to an agent, then yeah, absolutely. Do that. Like go to go to a conference or a convention if that's something that's available to you. Rekka:42:43   Awesome. All right, cool. So community basically is, is the center of the universe for making this happen? Nino:   42:49   That is absolutely, yeah. That's like the, all the advice I ever have about writing comes down to just like just to build, build better in larger communities. Rekka:42:57   Awesome. Nino:   42:58   Yeah. Hunger communities. Rekka:42:59   Yes. 100%. All right. So um, you'll give us the names of the two books before. Just remind us before we let you go. Nino:   43:08   Okay. Yeah, so in October the my short story collection Homesick is going to be released from Dzanc Books. You can preorder it now. Yes, you can absolutely preorder it now. Um, and then Finna, which is a novella is going to be up from tour.com in February. Rekka:43:25   Okay, great. And we will include links to that in our show notes and thank you so much for your time and we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience. Cause like you said, learning from your friends, learning from others in the writing community is, is like such a great resource. Nino:   43:38   It is. It is. Oh God. Yeah. I would not be anywhere without my friends. Rekka:43:42   Absolutely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Nino:   43:46   Thanks you too. Rekka:44:04   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.    

In This Episode The Book Evangelists discuss The City in the Middle of the Night by Charlie Jane Anders as part of reading and listening to the 5-star SF/FF audiobooks and books that we have recommended to each other recently. Lissa has been talking up this book constantly for six months and claims it is a climate change tidally-locked planet #hopepunk found family snuggling book. "If you control our sleep, then you can own our dreams... And from there, it's easy to control our entire lives." Set on a planet that has fully definitive, never-changing zones of day and night, with ensuing extreme climates of endless, frigid darkness and blinding, relentless light, humankind has somehow continued apace -- though the perils outside the built cities are rife with danger as much as the streets below. But in a world where time means only what the ruling government proclaims, and the levels of light available are artificially imposed to great consequence, lost souls and disappeared bodies are shadow-bound and savage, and as common as grains of sand. And one such pariah, sacrificed to the night, but borne up by time and a mysterious bond with an enigmatic beast, will rise to take on the entire planet--before it can crumble beneath the weight of human existence. description from the publisher This blog post is spoiler-free. On the podcast, we discuss The City in the Middle of the Night by Charlie Jane Anders in detail and our discussion in the podcast is filled with minor and major spoilers, so please read the book before you listen if you are into that kind of experience. We'll be here for you when you finish! Quotes from The City in the Middle of the Night by Charlie Jane Anders https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/64654648-the-city-in-the-middle-of-the-night "I like that the quotes that you read -- they're all conflictual -- this is not a book where you can rally around one particular quote. One particular quote is not going to be enough for us to rally around. We're going to have to re-examine our thinking over and over and over." - Lissa Characters and Places How does the world-building work? How are these places described? January, Xiophante, Argelo, The City in the Middle of the Night Which characters do we like? Who scares us? Who is our favorite character? Who are we shipping together? Who do we worry about? Who surprised us? Sophie, Mouth, Bianca, Alyssa, Hernan, Barney, Crocodiles/Gelet Science Fiction as Self-Help This is a good self-help book for learning more about: Friendships, Love, Betrayal, Boundaries, Trust, and people using each other for good or using each other for bad. This book illustrates all of those things really, truly. "People don't hurt each other enough in traditional romance novels to have the level of depth that this book has." - Lissa's endorsement for why reading The City in the Middle of the Night is better, post-divorce, than reading her typical stack of escapist romance novels Subscribing to Their Newsletters As all good readers know, when you really like the author's book, sometimes you might check out their website, their twitter, their podcast, their agent.....because those are all source of additional book news and recommendations! Lissa's subscribed to DongWon Song's newsletter Publishing is Hard (and loves it!) Lissa starting listening to Charlie Jane Anders podcast Our Opinions are Correct at least 10 days before it won the Hugo for Best Fancast and Marian had it queued up. #earlyadopters Next episode: Marian is preparing to possibly write a cozy mystery. So, for next time, we will read an Agatha Christie novel, specifically Murder on the Orient Express. Music Credit: The music used during transitions in our podcast is adapted from: Jazzy Sax, Guitar, and Organ at the club by Admiral Bob (c) copyright 2018 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/files/admiralbob77/58382 Ft: geoffpeters

Your Hosts: Howard, Mary Robinette, Dan, and Dongwon Guest-host Dongwon Song joined us at WXR 2018 as an instructor, and gave great advice regarding the business side of working as an author. In this episode he takes us through a conversation about choosing an agent. Credits: This episode was recorded by Bert Grimm, and mastered … Continue reading 14.25: Choosing Your Agent →

In Speculate 2.0’s nineteenth actual play episode, we wrap up (for the moment) our sessions in the world of Scum and Villainy by discussing the experience of playing together over this series of episodes, as GM Mike and players Greg, SFF authors Alex Acks and SL Huang, and agent DongWon Song chat about what developing […]

In Speculate 2.0’s eighteenth actual play episode, we continue in the world of Scum and Villainy with GM Mike and players Greg, SFF authors Alex Acks and SL Huang, and agent DongWon Song. The crew has the box and a ship, neither of which belong to them…and now they’ve got a lot of people on […]

In Speculate 2.0’s seventeenth actual play episode, we return to the world of Scum and Villainy with GM Mike and players Greg, SFF authors Alex Acks and SL Huang, and agent DongWon Song. The crew has the box and a ship, neither of which belong to them…but they’re sure everything will be just finnnneeee. If […]

Your Hosts: Dan Wells, Tempest Bradford, DongWon Song, and Julia Rios Julia Rios joins us to talk about writing characters who come from one of the many Latin-American cultures or subcultures. "Latinx" is a catch-all term for people with Latin-American heritage, including mixed-race people. In this episode we talk about mash-up cuisine, intersectionality, and how to navigate the subtleties to find the specific cultural elements which will help you create Latinx characters. Credits: This episode was recorded by Bert Grimm, and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Brea and Mallory check another box on the 2019 Reading Glasses Challenge (pre orders/library requests) and talk to literary agent DongWon Song. Use the hashtag #ReadingGlassesPodcast to participate in online discussion! Email us at readingglassespodcast at gmail dot com! Reading Glasses Merch Sponsor - SquareSpace Promo Code - GLASSES for 10%   Links - Reading Glasses Facebook Group Reading Glasses Goodreads Group Amazon Wish List   Newsletter   San Diego Live Event 3-8-19   DongWon Song https://twitter.com/dongwon   Books Mentioned - Prism Stalker vol 1 by Sloane Leong Goldengrove by Francine Prose The City in the Middle of the Night by Charlie Jane Anders Binti by Nnedi Okorafor The Test by Sylvain Neuvel Your Favorite Band Cannot Save You by Scotto Moore Snow White Learns Witchcraft by Theodora Goss The Witches Are Coming by Lindy West The Witch Elm by Tana French The Ruin of Kings by Jenn Lyons The Lonesome Bodybuilder by Yukiko Motoya, Asa Yoneda (Translator) 

In this episode, we conclude our playthrough of Scum and Villainy with Speculate 2.0’s twelfth actual play episode. GM Mike and players Greg, SFF authors Alex Acks and SL Huang, and agent DongWon Song discuss their experience of Scum and Villainy, and how each of them had a blast by working together without feeling like […]

In this episode, we continue our playthrough of Scum and Villainy with Speculate 2.0’s eleventh actual play episode. GM Mike and players Greg, SFF authors Alex Acks and SL Huang, and agent DongWon Song find themselves in a bit of trouble–and are trying not to get into even more of it as they move from […]

In this episode, we open up with a new crew and a new system, as we enter the world of Scum and Villainy with Speculate 2.0’s tenth actual play episode. GM Mike and players Greg, SFF authors Alex Acks and SL Huang, and agent DongWon Song chat about the kind of crew they want to […]

For NASA's 60th Anniversary, Houston We Have a Podcast took to the stage with science fiction writers Mary Robinette Kowal, Dan Wells, Howard Tayler, and publishing agent DongWon Song, as well as NASA astronaut Kjell Lindgren to discuss how real science and science fiction have influenced each other. HWHAP Episode 67.

For NASA's 60th Anniversary, Houston We Have a Podcast took to the stage with science fiction writers Mary Robinette Kowal, Dan Wells, Howard Tayler, and publishing agent DongWon Song, as well as NASA astronaut Kjell Lindgren to discuss how real science and science fiction have influenced each other. HWHAP Episode 67.

For NASA’s 60th Anniversary, Houston We Have a Podcast took to the stage with science fiction writers Mary Robinette Kowal, Dan Wells, Howard Tayler, and publishing agent DongWon Song, as well as NASA astronaut Kjell Lindgren to discuss how real science and science fiction have influenced each other. HWHAP Episode 67.

Baby taxis, french insults, and white messiahs, oh my! This month, in the most french episode we've ever had, Alex, Julia, David, and special guest, DongWon Song, review the problem-plagued film, Babylon AD. We're pretty sure that this episode of Torture Cinema contains more action than Michelle Yeoh gets in the entire movie. Seriously. Michelle […]

Welcome to Episode 172 of Speculate! The Podcast for Writers, Readers and Fans. In this State of the Field episode we chat with former editor and current agent DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Literary Agency about the current publishing environment for speculative fiction, how the line between agent and editor has become increasingly blurred, […]

DongWon Song, literary agent with HMLA, joins us for a Q&A on the elemental genre of "Issue." Here are the questions, which were submitted by the attendees at WXR '16: Can only certain people tackle certain issues in certain stories? Science Fiction often explores issues by changing the context. Why does this work? How would you handle an issue story in short fiction? How do you make sure to research the issue enough without paralyzing yourself with the fear that you cannot do it justice? How do you convincingly write a position with which you disagree without convincing your readers that you agree with it? How do you write about a deeply personal issue without making it sound like a personal sob story? Credits: This episode was recorded aboard Oasis of the Seas by Bert Grimm, and mastered by Alex Jackson.

Our listeners have been asking for an in-depth, "crunchy" episode on colonialism, and related issues like cultural appropriation, for a couple of years now. Our voices, however, are not the ones our listeners should be hearing on the subject. Finding the right voices has not been easy, but it has been worth it. This episode runs for over 25 minutes. Steven Barnes, K. Tempest Bradford, DongWon Song, and Shveta Thakrar discuss colonialism with Mary Robinette Kowal. Brandon, Dan, and Howard simply listened, and learned. We encourage you to do the same. Liner notes: Here's the recommended reference reading — "Of Warrior Chiefs and Indian Princesses", Stephanie A. Fryberg, Hazel Rose Markus, Daphna Oyserman, and Joseph M. Stone Discussion Note: The topics of colonialism and cultural appropriation are controversial in some circles. Our discussion here focuses on how to thoughtfully and sensitively address these matters in our work. We're taking it as a given, then, that this sensitivity is important. In order to best foster that discussion, and out of respect for our guests, comments are being moderated. Credits: This episode was recorded aboard Oasis of the Seas by Bert Grimm, and mastered by Alex Jackson.