Podcasts about wmb

“He restores my soul. He guides me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.”Psalms 23:3 WMB

“Didn't he tell me, ‘She is my sister'? She, even she herself, said, ‘He is my brother.' I have done this in the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands.”” Genesis 20:5 WMB

“Hear my words, you wise men. Give ear to me, you who have knowledge. For the ear tries words, as the palate tastes food. Let us choose for us that which is right. Let us know among ourselves what is good.” Job 34:2-4 WMB

In this video, we dive deep into recent stock market movements and share actionable trading strategies. Learn how to effectively minimize losses with a real-world example using WMB and discover why Walmart (WMT) remains a strong hold despite market fluctuations. We also analyze SU as a new trading opportunity and discuss the momentum shift in the SPY. Join us as we break down the market dynamics and highlight the importance of rolling options to cut losses in half. #StockMarket #TradingStrategies #WMB #Walmart #WMT #SU #OptionsTrading #MarketAnalysis #SPY #Investing #OvtlyrTrading #FinancialEducation

Welcome to the OVTLYR Trading Room, where we break down the art of trading into a simple 10-minute daily routine. Join us as we dissect the latest market movements and unveil our winning strategies with real-time analysis. In this session, we dive deep into the bullish surge of retail giant Walmart and the tactical roll-up strategy with WMB (Williams Companies). Discover how our members capitalize on market opportunities and take the guesswork out of trading. Watch as we discuss Walmart's impressive one and a third percent gain and WMB's strategic roll-up, maximizing profits while minimizing risk. Learn how our approach to trading delivers consistent results and empowers traders to thrive in any market condition. Don't miss out on exclusive insights from the OVTLYR Trading Room and unlock the secrets to trading success. Subscribe now and join us for daily updates, analysis, and actionable trading tips. #TradingStrategy #WalmartAnalysis #WMB #StockMarket #DayTrading #InvestingTips #OVTLYRTradingRoom #MarketAnalysis #ProfitableTrades #TradingCommunitys

When Roc Solo, the Hook God from Norfolk, Virginia, throw it back to the days of pretending to be the Temptations, you know we're about to get real about music and life. As we settle into a journey of melodies and memories, we uncover the crucial roles that relationships play over the quest for wealth, and the way our artistry has been shaped by the legendary sounds that echo from our childhoods to the present day.Navigating the waters of fatherhood, our conversation takes a heartfelt turn, revealing how our daughters have become our greatest inspirations—and sometimes our most adorable critics. The influence of parenthood on our music leads to revelations about our creative processes and how we've recalibrated our ambitions to reflect the new responsibilities and joys that come with raising these little future leaders. In the same breath, we tease the behind-the-scenes creative struggle and excitement that went into perfecting our latest drop, "On Full's," highlighting the brotherhood and dedication at WMB.Wrapping things up, we debate our top hip-hop artists and producers, chuckle over the unexpected physical statures of rap icons, and discuss how different cities have left their mark on our musical styles. We share stories of navigating egos in the business and how building genuine connections can sometimes overshadow the allure of a hefty paycheck. Join us on this groove-filled ride that's as much about beats and bars as it is about the bonds that make the music matter.Relationships Worth More Than Money by Tweezy Kennedy & Marcus Allandavailable on all streaming platforms!Support the showInstagram: @rwmtmYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/@RWMTMpodGet RWMTM MERCH HERE!!!!! https://streamlabs.com/tweezydabeatterroristkennedy/merch

''God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy, because he rested in it from all his work of creation which he had done.” (Genesis 2:3 WMB)

In this video, we'll perform a WMB stock analysis and figure out what the company looks like based on the numbers. We'll also try to figure out what a reasonable fair value is for Williams. And answer is Williams one of the best dividend stocks to buy at the current price? Find out in the video above! Global Value's The Williams Companies, Inc. stock analysis. Check out Seeking Alpha Premium and score an annual plan for just $119. Plus all funds from affiliate referrals go directly towards supporting the channel! Affiliate link - https://www.sahg6dtr.com/H4BHRJ/R74QP/ The Williams Companies, Inc. ($WMB) | The Williams Companies, Inc. Stock Value Analysis | The Williams Companies, Inc. Stock Dividend Analysis | WMB Dividend Analysis | $WMB Dividend Analysis | The Williams Companies, Inc. Intrinsic Value | WMB Intrinsic Value | $WMB Intrinsic Value | Williams Intrinsic Value | The Williams Companies, Inc. Discounted Cash Flow Model | The Williams Companies, Inc. DCF Analysis | WMB Discounted Cash Flow Analysis | WMB DCF Model #WMB #williams #stockmarket #dividend #stocks #investing #valueinvesting (Recorded January 28, 2023) ❖ MUSIC ❖ ♪ "Lift" Artist: Andy Hu License: Creative Commons Attribution 3.0. ➢ http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b... ➢ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQCuf...

“He waters the mountains from his rooms. The earth is filled with the fruit of your works.” - Psalms 104:13 (WMB)

TimingResearch.com Crowd Forecast News Episode #357, recorded at 1PM ET on August 29th, 2022. The full video, timeline, special offers, and show notes available here: https://timingresearch.com/blog/2022/crowd-forecast-news-episode-357/   Highlights: • S&P 500 / $SPX / $SPY projections for the week. • Possible Fed actions over the next few months and inflation. • Other symbols discussed: $QQQ, $IWM, $DVN, $HAL, $MRO, $WMB, $CCJ, $XLP, and more!   Lineup for this Episode: - The Option Professor of OptionProfessor.com ⚡ eBook: 10 Recession Trading Strategies https://timingresearch.com/LR2POD   Terms and Policies: https://timingresearch.com/policies/  

You sword of the Lord, how long will it be before you are quiet? Put yourself back into your scabbard; rest, and be still. Jeremiah 47:6 WMB

Welcome to Evergreen! We're so glad to have you joining us. We have Adam Knowles from WMB with us! Adam will be preaching a message from Luke 17:11-19 on the Samaritan Leper.

Welcome to Evergreen! We're so glad to have you joining us. We have Adam Knowles from WMB with us! Adam will be preaching a message from Luke 17:11-19 on the Samaritan Leper.

I go over all the places on YouTube that I trust to learn about stock charts and fundamentals. 1) Ziptrader 2) Trendspider U 3) Trading Rush Mac D 4) Focus on RSI, SMA vs. EMA, MacD and later identifying pattersn 5) Develop your own style that you feel comfortable with and try back testing (using Trendspider - sign up through my pinned tweet and support the podcast) Oil is back in play - $JPM thinks it's $120 soon because of supply Oil wholesale is back to pre Ukraine war prices - but prices at the pump are not - seems like a global crisis - it will go back up with supply shortening and gas stations are reluctant to reduce the price. $UCO is a good play $OXY - Buffett keeps buying - even at the $60 price $DVN $XOM $CVX $FANG all have had dips that IMO are buys $WMB - has a 5% yield $WFC - got beat down by earnings - but Stephanie Link likes it $MU - great run so far - I think it has $66 if it closes above $60 $BAC - Karen Finermans biggest holding - I like it but it may get beaten down if earnings are as bad as other banks $TQQQ - made money yesterday - looking for more today $UNH - beat earnings - still has some left in the tank, but don't be greedy $META $GOOG $AAPL - all good long term buys here $TSLA - above $700 again - look to sell if it runs $RIO - get out while you can - this was my mistake $SPXU - good because I do think the market will trend down from here $SQQQ - I'm not buying this just yet - wait for a bad earnings Nasdaq company - then pounce $UVXY - still think the vix goes to 30 $GOEV - this is complete hype - don't hold it over the weekend $PINS - Elliot Management is now in - look for continued shareholder value in this --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/dailystockpick/support

Washington Maritime Blue (WMB) is an organization that runs an intensive mentor-based four-month program focused on helping maritime industry startups learn how to scale and grow. Startups receive access to the WMB industry and ocean leaders alongside a global network of mentors and advisors. With a mission to implement Washington State's Strategy for the Blue Economy delivered by Governor Jay Inslee's Maritime Innovation Advisory Council, They are in partnership between industry, public sector, research, and training. Joshua Berger is the Founder & CEO, and Josh Carter is the Program Director of the non-profit accelerator in Washington State.

Washington Maritime Blue (WMB) is an organization that runs an intensive mentor-based four-month program focused on helping maritime industry startups learn how to scale and grow. Startups receive access to the WMB industry and ocean leaders alongside a global network of mentors and advisors. With a mission to implement Washington State's Strategy for the Blue Economy delivered by Governor Jay Inslee's Maritime Innovation Advisory Council, They are in partnership between industry, public sector, research, and training. Joshua Berger is the Founder & CEO, and Josh Carter is the Program Director of the non-profit accelerator in Washington State.

Jason Hall and Matt DiLallo join the show to break down the defining energy themes of 2021 and share their predictions for 2022 Stocks Mentioned: PSX, DAR, VLO, KMI, WMB, ET, GTLS, BP, TTE, XOM, CVX, BKR, DVN, PXD, COP, EOG, TPIC, BAM Check out more of our content here: Podcasts Youtube Twitter Reach us by Email @ IndustryFocus@fool.com

The best conversation starter: a tee shirt. Wandering Maverick Boutique is home to the cutest agriculture based shirts! Koyde Neel, the owner of Wandering Maverick, is a past Texas 4H President and Texas FFA member. She has worn many hats in the agriculture industry and has a passion for advocating for agriculture! Tune in to hear all about her expiriences, how her business got started, the mission behind WMB. Don't forget to Like, Share, and as always Advocate for Agriculture!!

On Episode 64, the Pivot Queen, Kate Hancock, and her husband/business partner Daniel Robbins, serial entrepreneurs and co-founders of “What It Takes to Run a Million Dollar Business”, join us to discuss the trials and tribulations of entrepreneurship and how the current era and opportunity of the internet and Clubhouse has changed the entrepreneurial world. The pair start the interview off discussing some of the unique challenges in being an entrepreneur (5:22). They then transition to Clubhouse, detailing their history in the platform and their current advising and networking community (11:39). In the wake of “The Great Resignation”, Hancock and Robbins discuss the new wave of entrepreneurs in America as well as what they believe to be the biggest challenges facing new entrepreneurs (20:48). Pivoting towards themselves the duo dive into their new venture The Mastermind, or WMB, which guides small entrepreneurs into scaling their businesses to the next level (24:10). Kate and Daniel then document their own struggles throughout their careers and what they believe keeps them motivated, while also putting into perspective how their challenges are so common among new entrepreneurs (28:25). They each discuss their own story, and how their personal and professional history is important to their respective personal branding (37:04) The duo then detail what they believe to be the state, and more importantly future, of entrepreneurial networking (40:06). Returning to Mastermind, Hancock and Robbins end the interview discussing some of the lesser known aspects of WMB and some of their favorite aspects of the business (49:09). Like, comment, and subscribe! Stay connected with your host on IG: @aalia_unsugarcoated Connect with Kate Hancock:IG: @officialkatehancockConnect with Daniel Robbins:IG: @realdrobbins

In this episode, we're joined by Philippa Constable, founder of We Mean Biz. We Mean Biz is the brainchild of Philippa Constable, the well known networking skills expert and founder of the acclaimed Women Mean Biz networking organisation which she launched in 2007, and is now the largest business networking platform for professional women in the South West of England. Having taken two start-ups from zero to success whilst bringing up two children, Philippa understands the challenges that women and men face with networking and in business, and she’s passionate about helping people in business succeed. Philippa has years of experience and research into how people can get the best out of business networking. Having been a member of business development schemes and networking organisations herself, she wanted more than what was on offer. She’s developed a format that’s proved successful for hundreds of men & women, whether in business for the first time or with years of experience. Philippa has successfully written and runs her own workshops and training in business networking skills, teaching business owners and managers how to network with authenticity and get great results. She believes that most people don’t understand what ‘real’ networking is truly about. Her mission is to support & teach people on how to network with confidence and is the guiding light to her members in the WMB community. In this episode, we explore: emigrating marriage breakdown immigation issues piecing life back together reaching out for help gratitude the importance of connection and loads more. Mentioned in this episode Khaled Hosseini - The Kite Runner You can connect with Philippa via Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin or via her websites Women Mean Biz and We Mean Biz Follow our host Hannah @hannah.stainer on Instagram or on twitter. Follow our podcast @psykhecoaching on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook or connect with us via our website where you can download your gratitude journal by signing up to our mailing list. Support the podcast by sending us a coffee via Ko-Fi We're now on Clubhouse, connect with Hannah @hstainer and join us to chat about mental health and wellbeing. If you've loved this episode as much as we have please do share it on social media and tag us in your post. And we always love to hear what you think so please rate and review on itunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks for listening! Hannah & the Psykhe Podcast team x --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/psykhe/message

This is part 3 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with: How do we respond to WMB’s failed visions given the clear requirements of Deuteronomy 18:20 to 22? How is this affected by cognitive bias? … Continue reading "Episode 69 – The 2020 Debate (Part 3)"

This is part 3 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with: How do we respond to WMB’s failed visions given the clear requirements of Deuteronomy 18:20 to 22? How is this affected by cognitive bias? … Continue reading "Episode 69 – The 2020 Debate (Part 3)"

Au Crayon nous avons créé un espace, le Ring

Aujourd'hui le round 2 ! Le débrief du débat ! Au Crayon nous avons créé un espace, le Ring

Au Crayon nous avons créé un espace, le Ring

Aujourd'hui le round 2 ! Le débrief du débat ! Au Crayon nous avons créé un espace, le Ring

Au Crayon nous avons créé un espace, le Ring

Au Crayon nous avons créé un espace, le Ring

In the first #WMB episode of 2021, Ryan sits down with Wilson Times business beat reporter Brie Handgraaf to discuss the major news of 2020, and what to anticipate in 2021.

A pocas horas del combate más esperado del año Carlos “El Zar” Aguilar platicó con Callum Smith, el gigante boxeador británico de 6 pies 3 pulgadas, que será rival de Saúl “Canelo “Alvarez en el Alomodome de San Antonio este sábado 19 de diciembre.En su charla con “El Zar”, Callum nos dio detalles sobre su vida, como ha sido su preparación y el conocimiento que tiene del estilo de boxeo de Canelo.Además, traemos todos los detalles del ambiente que se vive en la burbuja que se ha creado alrededor de la pelea, sus escenarios, las entrevistas, la comida y el alojamiento, con nuestro enviado especial Iñaki Arzate. Imperdible episodio De Campana a Campana … ¿Quién es Callum Smith? Callum Smith, el Actual Campeón del Peso Super Mediano de la Asociación Mundial de Boxeo, nació en Liverpool, Inglaterra en 1990, y comenzó en el boxeo aficionado buscando representar a su país en los juegos olímpicos de Londres, sueno que no alcanzo. Ese mismo año debutó en el sector profesional, hoy en día cuenta con una marca de 27 victorias, 19 por nocaut. Su estatura de 1.91 metros y su gran alcance lo hacen un boxeador peligroso en la distancia larga y es considerado como el mejor de su categoría ya que ha vencido a rivales como John Ryder y George Groves, entre otros.Callum además conoce bastante bien del boxeo de “El Canelo” pues es hermano de Liam Smith a quien Canelo venció por nocaut en el 2016.

Another week goes by, and we're taking another detailed look at the Bubble Scene. Plus we're recapping the latest rumours on roster transfers and answering the regular fan mailbag questions. Timestamps: 0:00 - Intro --News-- 3:33 - Noly Tries out with FC Barcelona 12:33 - BDS Seek tryout with Kash 18:23 - Aztral speaks out about leaving Dignitas --Mailbag-- 25:04 - Intro 26:06 - Velixo: A lot of esports journalists and representatives push that an esport needs to start from the grassroots scene. Why is that? 46:57 - dex: How would you structure a tournament if the gimmick was a mixture of game modes? 52:02 - Velixo: CloudFuel and Lawler have both mentioned that while Psyonix has been seriously shitting the bed over the recent years, they have been hearing/seeing positive stuff indicating that Psyonix will be stepping up soon. Any clues or guesses for what they might be referring to? 59:44 - Breaking News: AS Monaco release roster --Tournament Roundup-- 1:04:21 - Iberian League results 1:06:19 - Canyons taking the expected top spot 1:08:26 - Big tie up for 2-4th 1:13:40 - Los Hombres pulling rear, but contextually it's not worrying 1:16:22 - Next weeks games 1:18:17 - Superstar League results 1:19:50 - SUPRMODE take a big leap into the top spot 1:24:50 - JorJaJo, WMB and Totalschaden in a race for 3rd place 1:29:16 - Next weeks matches 1:33:22 - Outro RLAfterShock: Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/HyKUXAm Follow our Twitter: https://twitter.com/RLAfterShock

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week is a double header and it’s all about accolades!  First we take a question from one of our Patreon subscribers and talk about starred reviews. What are they, how do you get them, and why is that star such a big deal?  Then it’s on to our second topic: Awards!  They’re pretty awesome if you can get one, but how do you qualify for one and exactly how important to your career are these?  Just keep in mind here, the word of the week is “Subjective”. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, the award you most wish you could win during your life, real or imagined! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Rekka (00:00): So welcome back to another episode of we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. And then sometimes you publish your book and you want people to look at it and you have to figure out how to get them to look at it. And so sometimes it's after the publishing, so sometimes beyond. Kaelyn (00:17): Yeah. So, um, I'm Kaelyn, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:22): I'm Rekka and I'm fired. And I write science fiction and fantasy is RJ theater. Kaelyn (00:28): I'm Kaelyn and I want to go to bed. Rekka (00:30): Yeah, we've been doing this all day. We're backing up some episodes because we both have some travel coming up and we weren't sure when we get together again. So we have gotten to the point of being entirely punchy where, um, luckily this, this clip for the beginning is the last bit we're recording for today. Kaelyn (00:47): But yeah. Um, so this episode, uh, actually came to us from one of our, uh, question from one of our Patreon users, um, who was asking about starred reviews. And that kind of then also segwayed into other things that are given out to especially awesome books, which was awards as we're kind of approaching awards season. Uh, so this, this is a little bit of a split episode. We're gonna talk about starred reviews and industry reviews and then we're gonna talk about awards, Rekka (01:14): But we chose them to fill in the same episode because they are somewhat related in that, you know, you are being, you know, critically reviewed and um, and judged by an outside party who is considered an authority of some sort, whether that's a voting committee, a voting, um, membership or a reviewer for a publication that deals solely with, you know, reviewing books and stuff. Kaelyn (01:40): Exactly. So, um, you know, this is just kind of, I won't say a lot of insider knowledge, but just like a little explanation about some things that are going on behind all of this. Um, you know, in terms of the book reviews, uh, you know, trade publications and who's reviewing these and with the awards, um, we specifically talk about a couple that are relevant to our genre. Rekka (02:06): Our genra specifically. Kaelyn (02:06): Yes. Um, and you know what you have to do to qualify for some of these and what you have to do to be a voting member. So, um, anyway, uh, take a listen as always, we hope you enjoy. And as always, if you have questions, send them to us. Rekka (02:19): Absolutely. We love to answer listener questions because we want to know what gaps we haven't filled in yet. Um, sometimes we look into - Kaelyn (02:26): We may do a whole episode about it. Rekka (02:28): Yeah, we do. Yeah. But sometimes we look at each other and we're like, so what are we talking about this time? And like, you know what, we don't have to decide cause someone asked us a question. So here we go. So we appreciate questions and comments and interaction online. It's, it's all great and we, we really do love it. So thank you for that. And um, in our, to express our thanks. Here's an episode, Kaelyn (03:03): Just jotting stuff down. Rekka (03:03): Keep that in mind, folks. She always takes notes and she never forgets. Kaelyn (03:10): Oh, that's why I write stuff down, written down somewhere. Rekka (03:13): It's not that she hasn't forgotten, but she's going to uncover that note someday and realize that's the thing that you said. So watch what you say. Kaelyn (03:19): Yeah. I, um, something I don't think I've ever brought up on this. I spent three years in college as like the senior student archivist for my university. So I'm very into records Rekka (03:33): Archives are her jam. Kaelyn (03:36): Archives are awesome. They're, you know, they're fun, they're full, full, great stuff. Uh, speaking of things full of great stuff. Rekka (03:42): Hey, I like that segue. It's not a segue if you call attention to it. I've, I've come to understand, Kaelyn (03:47): Oh, that just seems like it's, yeah, that's unfair. Rekka (03:49): That's, yeah, that's not fair. I want to be able to recognize this. That's why you get a gong. So you don't actually say, Hey, nice segue. You just, it just rang a little. Kaelyn (03:57): . Is there like a noise we can insert, you know, to indicate that there's a segue. Okay. Rekka (04:03): You can come up with, we'll do a nice like page flip like, okay. Um, so today's episode topics starts with a question suggested by one of our patrons on patreon.com/WMBcast and Robert D McAdams who says we do not have to give him credit for the question, but we just did anyway. Asks what is a starred review? So we've touched on this in passing in a previous episode, which I'm sure Robert heard, um, when we talked about reviews in general, but a starred review is a very specific term. These are not reviews that come with star ratings like you might find on Amazon. Like, yes, there are stars, but that's not what we're talking about. So what is Kaelyn? A starred review? Kaelyn (04:48): Well, so before we get into that, um, and as Rekka said, we talked about this in the episode, we did all about reviews. Uh, the difference between, you know, reader reviews on good reads and Amazon and industry reviews. Industry reviews are professional trade publications, or you might hear them called the traits and they are exactly what they sound like. People send advanced copies of books to them before publication and there are people there that read them and write a few hundred words on them. Three to maybe 400. This is that - Rekka (05:20): If that. Kaelyn (05:21): Yeah, this is not, this is not going to be a long multiple page insightful exploration of this book Rekka (05:27): Cause they know let's be real. All you wanted was the star review. Kaelyn (05:33): Um, no, but even just general positive review. So there are four major trade publications. I'll start with the most, you know, coveted one publisher's weekly. A publisher's weekly is almost 150 years old. Um, they've been around for a very long time. It's a magazine that you can subscribe to or you can actually pick up on new stands in New York city. Rekka (05:56): Wow. Really? Kaelyn (05:57): Yeah, well publishers weekly is in New York city there. Um - Rekka (05:59): So they distribute locally. Kaelyn (06:01): Yup. So you can actually go to newsstands in New York city and pick up publishers weekly. Rekka (06:05): I have never tried to do that. Kaelyn (06:07): You can have it mailed to you or you can get it online. Of course there's online subscriptions. Every issue, they review a couple of hundred books, um, that are coming out. And if there is a book that they particularly like, um, it is exemplary, uh, they want to denote this book of being as particularly high quality, uh, either in writing or story or what the book accomplishes if someone there, you know, and the process when, how this happens is a little, no one's really quite sure. But anyway, yeah. Rekka (06:45): It's behind a curtain. Kaelyn (06:45): Um, they'll give it a star and that is just, it's a stamp that says we think this book is excellent. How many books do you think every year get a starred review from publishers weekly? What would you say? Rekka (06:59): Is it, is it guaranteed to be one per issue or a certain number per issue? Kaelyn (07:03): There's no guarantee for anything. Rekka (07:04): So there may be an issue where they don't start one at all. Kaelyn (07:07): Correct. They are in no way, shape or form obligated to give out a star. You only earn it on merit. Rekka (07:12): So the idea being this is, you did say coveted, but we're talking extremely coveted and they know you want it. Kaelyn (07:17): Yes. So how many do you think approximately they start in a year? Rekka (07:22): I'm gonna say - Kaelyn (07:23): Keep in mind. They will review thousands and thousands of books. Rekka (07:26): 100? Kaelyn (07:26): About 200. Rekka (07:27): Yeah. Okay. Kaelyn (07:28): Um, you know, sometimes it's a little more, sometimes it's a little less, but that's what they're, they're averaging. Rekka (07:33): See, I lowered it because I'm assuming that all these readers are just freaking sick of books. Kaelyn (07:39): Um, so publishers weekly, uh, Kirkus is kind of the, um, most close competitor of, uh, of publishers weekly. Here's the big difference between them. Uh, publisher's weekly also has like some industry gossip and some forecast kind of things in it. Kirkus is no gossip. It's a very straight forward, you know, here's the book. Here's the reveal. I'm a starred review from Kirkus is also still fantastic. Rekka (08:03): Yup. Kaelyn (08:04): Um, library journal is by the same sister, uh, company as publisher weekly. Uh, library journal, however, as its name implies, is focused more towards libraries. Um, if you're wondering, well why is that different? It's because they're looking at this more from the educational side of the book. Do you think this is a valuable thing that we want to buy? Will people be asking for it? Um, finally there's Booklist a Booklist is perhaps the most kind of all of these. Um, from, you know, things I've read and heard editors and writers at Booklist are encouraged to find something nice to nice to say about the book publishers weekly and Kirk is hold no such compunction. Rekka (08:49): Yes. In fact, sometimes it feels as though they really enjoy taking people to task for things they don't enjoy. Kaelyn (08:56): Yes. Um, library journal tends to be a little more academic and a little more thumbs up, thumbs down. Rekka (09:02): Objective. Kaelyn (09:03): Yeah. This is good for this. It is not good for, this would not recommend for X, Y and Z recommend for, yeah. You know what, they're gonna give you both sides. Rekka (09:10): Like watch out for this, but you might enjoy it if you like this. Kaelyn (09:13): Getting a star in publisher's weekly and Kirkus is a big fucking deal. Rekka (09:19): Um, so it's almost predictive of how your book is going to succeed or not, but not accurately predictive. Let's just say across the board. If you don't get a starred review or you don't get a review at all, it does not mean that your book will not do well. But people do pay attention to which reviews are starred. And at the same time, if they are willing to give it a star, it's because they're not afraid to stick their neck out about how much they like your book. Kaelyn (09:26): Yep. So now you're probably wondering, well, who are these, these kingmakers who are the gods sitting on top of the mountain that, um, decide these things? Um, the answer is a little bit of everyone. Um, there's going to be, you know, published authors, um, editors, school teachers, librarians, people that are involved in this, so hadn't, and you may be going like, okay, well what makes them qualified to do this? A lot of times the reviewers are broken up by subject, by genre, by category, and have some kind of expertise in that area. It could be anything from, I've read extensively about this particular thing and you have to keep in mind, I know we talk about genre fiction a lot on this show. They're reviewing everything, you know, biographies. Rekka (10:30): I'm just about to point that out. Kaelyn (10:31): Yeah, true crime, Rekka (10:32): Everything. Historical fiction, historical documentation style. Kaelyn (10:37): Um, there are viewing everything. So maybe your history teacher, well then you get to read, um, you know, the latest biography of James Madison. Uh, maybe you were in the military, so you get to read the most recent military fiction that you know, comes out. Rekka (10:53): So what you're saying is they're not just sending these out to anyone randomly and haphazardly. Kaelyn (10:58): They're focused with who receives these that said, look, reviews are subjective. You know, it's, um, and again, is there a system of checks and balances? Maybe? Probably. Hopefully. Rekka (11:08): Hopefully. Kaelyn (11:13): You know, I think a lot of people think like, Oh, it's just, you know, college students and whatever. It's really not. They're pretty from everything, you know, I understand they're, they're pretty good about matching the books to the readers, making sure that the people that read these are people that are actually gonna enjoy that kind of book. Now, um, one thing that I will explain, I'm gonna use publisher's weekly as the example for this because they are kind of the, uh, the gold standard here, if you will. Um, so you might be thinking like, well, I have a book that I'm self publishing. Can I just send it over to get a review? Uh, you can't. Um, the reason for this is an - Rekka (11:45): It is gatekeeping. Kaelyn (11:47): It is gatekeeping. Yeah. You need to have the book be distributed. So even if you are with a publisher that only does eBooks, they're still not going to look at it. The book needs to be distributed through a traditional distributor. Rekka (12:02): If your indie publisher only does print on demand through KTP or IngramSpark, which is not like traditional distribution, they're not going to look at it. Kaelyn (12:14): Um, also, and this is where I'm, I start to get a little, uh, Rekka (12:19): Hot under the collar. Kaelyn (12:20): Get my feathers ruffled a little bit is when you go to the, um, the submissions guidelines pages on these, they'll give you a whole list of like, things they want to know. You know, a lot of it is things that you should obviously include, like release date information about the - Rekka (12:36): Targeted audience. Kaelyn (12:37): Targeted audience, that kind of important stuff. They'll also want to know how much are you spending on the marketing campaign? And for those of you who just jumped up out of your seat and went, are you kidding me? No, I'm not. Um, there is absolutely inside circles within this. If you don't think that Amazon and Barnes and noble pay publishers weekly for certain things, you're out of your mind. They do. Um, if you don't think that major publishing houses do things to guarantee eyes on copies of this, they do. Now, can they guarantee a favorable review? Absolutely not. Rekka (13:20): Nope. Kaelyn (13:20): Believe me, they have, you know, I'm sure you can probably find websites that just collect, you know, quote unquote - Rekka (13:27): Devastating reviews. Kaelyn (13:29): You know, and I mean, I've, I've seen some of them. There's definitely, you know, people have written some truly scathing things. Rekka (13:35): Yes. I meant devastating. Kaelyn (13:58): Yeah. About, about people's books. Um, so the other thing to keep in mind is a lot of people that do this are paid kind of on a per review basis. They're definitely, you know, full time staff there and everything. But when you have this many books come in, you don't have that many people sitting in an office just reading these. Um, they get sent out to reviewers who aren't necessarily at the office, read them in their time and then turn in the review. Rekka (14:05): So the people are getting paid on a per view basis, which means they're motivated to read fast and submit as many as possible. Kaelyn (14:13): Do not think that even if you had a thousand people sitting in a room whose only job was to care with, to read every book that came in, they would not get through the pile they receive. They don't have time to read every single word very carefully. Um, so it's, you know, it's, it's a good group of people who truly enjoy what they're doing because they're not making a fortune off of this. Rekka (14:37): Right. Um, but, but they do make more if they get through more books and review more. Kaelyn (14:41): Yeah, exactly. So, um, what, you know is a starred review important, important is not the right word. Nice is a good word. Rekka (14:49): Um, is there a benefit to receiving a starred review? Kaelyn (14:54): Absolutely, it's going to get more attention. Um, it will, you know, it will make other, uh, publications and people within the industry set up and pay attention to it. You're a publisher and you get to go online and talk about how you got to start review. Rekka (15:10): Yup. Other, it's more content you can tweet. Kaelyn (15:12): Other outlets will specifically pay attention to it. Rekka (15:15): Is it the end of the world if you don't get one. Kaelyn (15:17): Absolutely not because most books don't. Rekka (15:19): Right. Kaelyn (15:19): 90 something percent of them do not. Um, then there are books that I have personally read that got starred reviews and I was like, why? Really? Okay. And it's not that they were bad, it was just that, you know, and, but that could just be that whoever it wasn't reviewing it was particularly enjoyed. Rekka (15:40): Interested in that one. Kaelyn (15:40): Yeah. Rekka (15:41): I mean it is, no matter what you try to do at the end of the day, it is subjective. Kaelyn (15:45): It is subjective. Um, a starred review is you did an extra good job. Rekka (15:51): We really, really are excited that you're releasing this into the world. So can, if you get a, a positive review but it's not starred, it's still real helpful. You can still tweet that content. You can still add that blurb to your, if there's a usable blurb in it, you can still add that to your um copy. Kaelyn (16:10): Anytime somebody reviews your book and publishes it, that review is yours. Now you can quote it, you can put it on the book. You can do, you know, that is them offering that into the world for you to use. Rekka (16:22): Yeah. Kaelyn (16:22): Um, so if you have a pog- you know, you'll see a lot of books you pick up that say, uh, you know, an astounding tour de force author, you know, completely redefines the genre or whatever and it'll just say such and such publisher's weekly. Rekka (16:39): Yup. Kaelyn (16:39): And that's, you know, that's a great thing to have if you have a review and it's not starred, but it's still good review. That's great. Most authors do not or never will have a starred review. It's like winning an Oscar, you know. Rekka (16:55): And by its rarity makes it more valuable, exactly why they are going to be invested in not giving them out to everybody, which means the difference between this and an Oscar is they don't have to give out one of these. Kaelyn (17:07): Right. Rekka (17:08): And the 200 that you mentioned are across all genre. So how many books are coming out in your specific genre each year or each, you know, yes. A year. How many books are coming out in your specific genre each year is they're only going to get a slice of those and those aren't promised to be distributed evenly across the genre. It might be a big year for biographies and you're just out of luck. Kaelyn (17:28): Yup. Yeah. So, um, start reviews are great if you get one. They are by no stretch of the imagination, the end of the world if you don't. So, you know, before we wrap that up, um, I was talking a lot about publishers weekly and I mentioned Kirkus as kind of being, you know, the counterpart to publisher's weekly. Just a couple, you know, things to clarify real quick. Um, about Kirkus and a few things that are unique about them. Um, as I'd mentioned, a, uh, publisher's weekly and library journal are a sister publications. They're both owned by Reed business organization, which puts out a whole bunch of different trade magazines. Like they put a variety. Rekka (18:11): Okay. Kaelyn (18:11): Too for instance. Rekka (18:11): Yeah. Kaelyn (18:23): Um, these are glossy magazine type things. They're going to have pictures of the cover and you know, the thing in nice font and everything Kirkus is not glossy. It's like newspaper reprint paper. There's no pictures. It's black and white and it's just the title, the author, the review. Yeah. Here's the thing about Kirkus. Um, it costs money to get them to review your book. It's over $400. Why? Because Kirkus is kind of considering themselves a cut above. Uh, they really try to be objective, I guess, which I'm not sure how that works when you're asking for money. Rekka (18:52): Yeah. Kaelyn (18:53): Well, like I had mentioned, you know, like publisher's weekly has like, you know, they do some like industry gossip and that kinds of Kirkus it doesn't do that. It's very - Rekka (19:00): Right, they're trying to leave out everything, but the, what they think you are, you want out of their publication, they have a format that the reviews follow. That's pretty consistent so that you know what you're getting when you ask for a review. Just you don't know what they're going to think of it. Kaelyn (19:17): Yeah. So here's a, just an, another little thing about Kirkus. Kirkus had a controversial couple of years ago. Uh, they took back a star on a book. Rekka (19:29): Yup. Kaelyn (19:30): Um, I won't mention the book exactly. Um, they - Rekka (19:35): It's easy to find. Kaelyn (19:36): It's very easy to find. Yeah. They gave it a starred review and then there, I mean - Rekka (19:42): There was a backlash. Kaelyn (19:43): There was backlash. Um, it was social backlash and Kirkus maybe not being as sensitive towards some things as they should have and they took it back. To my knowledge, that's the only time that's ever happened. Rekka (19:57): Yeah. It's the only one mentioned on the Wikipedia page about Kirkus. So, um, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Maybe it's taught them to be more careful so that it doesn't have to happen. Kaelyn (20:06): I mean, across trade publications in general. To my knowledge, and I did look for this. I could not find another instance of that ever happening. Rekka (20:14): Okay. Kaelyn (20:15): Um, if, if you know of one, let us know. Rekka (20:18): @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram and yeah. Um, yeah, the, I cannot imagine what it felt like to be an author who believed they received a star review and then had it rescinded because it was determined that their book made them a bad human. Yeah. Um, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the decision because I really don't, I don't know the book, but as an author, I cannot imagine how heartbreaking that must be. Yeah. So hopefully everyone's learned their lesson and this won't have to happen again, but it probably will in this day and age, honestly. Kaelyn (20:52): Yeah. Um, to be honest with you, I'm surprised it took that long for it to happen. Um, this was two years ago, I think, 2017 that this happened. Um, and it was, you know, it was big news when it happened. Rekka (21:06): Um, so if you bring it up, I'm sure you could get people heated up over even now. Kaelyn (21:09): Oh God. So don't. Rekka (21:10): Don't do that. Don't do it. Um, but we only bring it up because it does show that there is historical precedent for a star being removed, removed after someone quote unquote earned it. Kaelyn (21:20): Yeah. So that it just kinda goes to show that, you know, like, yes, review magazines are supposed to kind of be the authority, the authority, and they are supposed to have the ability to review at their discretion, but sometimes they do have to take other things into consideration after they've already done that. Rekka (21:41): Yep. Kaelyn (21:41): Um, so anyway, start reviews. Um, they're, they're great if you can get them. If not, it is in no way, shape or form the end of the world or your writing career in that order. Rekka (21:53): But that is what I started review is to answer your question, Robert, that's, um, that's what they are. That's how they're different from the, uh, reader reviews and maybe peer reviews that you might get from other authors. Um, or even, you know, just great blurbs from other people who might be, you know, like if you're writing a science fiction story like the Martian and an astronaut gave you a review and astronaut can give you an excellent review and it might look great on your cover, but it does not qualify as a starred review. Kaelyn (22:21): Yup. So, um, there you go. Yeah. Rekka (22:24): And Kaelyn can, can I have an astronaut reviewing my book? Kaelyn (22:27): Absolutely. Rekka (22:28): Let's get one get that arranged would ya please? Awesome. So something else, let's just speaking of accolades, accolades and uh, pinning your dreams to receiving one. Yes, it's award season as we record this. Meaning there are a lot of authors out there, very hopeful that their book might gain notice and end up shortlisted for a literary award within there's genre. Kaelyn (22:56): I'm going to qualify all of this by saying I am going to do everything I can to be positive Rekka (23:04): Hold back feelings. Kaelyn (23:04): Be positive. New Speaker (23:07): Kaelyn has some feelings about awards. Kaelyn (23:08): Well, here's the thing. They're great. It really is like wonderful. Rekka (23:13): As you were just saying it's fantastic if you get one. Kaelyn (23:16): Yes. Rekka (23:16): It is not the end of your career or a reflection of you as a human being or writer if you don't. Kaelyn (23:23): Yeah. So let's, uh, let's real quick talk about some awards now. We, you know, as we say frequently on this, uh, we, we both work in genre fiction, um, specifically science fiction and fantasy. Um, that said there are a lot of awards out there that can range to something small and local to the Nobel prize in literature, which I don't think they give out for just one book. You've got to have a pretty stellar career Rekka (23:51): Yeah. That's, that's more lifetime achievement award than a specific project. Um, unlike the Nobel prize for science where you might get it for one project and project for, if you're going to be a writer, you're not going to cure cancer with one book. Kaelyn (24:07): I don't think that's humanly possible unless it's a book on how to cure cancer. Rekka (24:13): Well, maybe you never can tell. Um, there's a lot of money in pharmaceuticals to treating people with cancer. You know, there's, there are some players behind those curtains moving against you. But, um, yeah, so the, the awards we're talking about are the annual awards that review much like tax seasons, the years prior activity in that genre, and someone needs to nominate you and enough people need to nominate you to put you toward the top of the list, which then is skimmed very, very much just the top of that list gets put on the ballot. Kaelyn (24:52): Yeah, there's usually. Well, it's like any award thing, you know, there's going to be five, maybe six choices in a category. Um, so typically what you'll find in, uh, industry, and this is, I'm, I'm fairly sure this is true across genres. There's association, there's guilds, there's, um, you know, groups that award these things. You have to be a member to vote in them. Rekka (25:17): But not a member usually to be nominated. Kaelyn (25:20): No. Um, because a lot of times to qualify for membership for these things, you might not be at that stage in your career yet. Um, but they, not all of them are just open to the general public. Some of them are the Hugo's - Rekka (25:33): The Hugo's are open to the general public . Kaelyn (25:34): - are open to the general public, um, the nebulas are not. Um, so just real quick, uh, we're talking specifically about the nebulas which are given out by the, uh, by SFWA, the science fiction and fantasy writers of America. So that is, um, American and therefore fairly English speaking centric. Uh, the Hugo's are also pretty English-speaking. Rekka (25:53): Yes. Though that is a global, but it is a global organization. The conference itself pops about the world each year. Um, and we say it's open to the public. You do have to pay to become a member for the year in which you want to vote. But there is no qualification like royalties or book sales or anything like that like there is with SFWA. Kaelyn (26:14): Yup. So SFWA is more of a professional organization because they are the science fiction and fantasy writers of America. Um, they are ma, they are very much geared towards like if anyone listening has ever gone to the nebulous conference. Um, a lot of the panels and discussions are career oriented. Um, the Hugo's are a little bit more readership oriented. Um, so that's, you know, that's just a, that's just a difference in a distinguishing point there. Uh, that said, you're going to see a lot of the people nominated across both of them. Rekka (26:45): Yes. The list will look very familiar across them because the people who are nominating tend to be members of more than just one. Yeah. It's like also they let's, you know, get right down to where we're going with this. The books are stand out in their category before they're nominated. Kaelyn (27:04): Yeah. It's kind of like the Oscars and the golden Globes and stuff. You know, the good stuff is the good stuff that's going to be already know what's going up there before anyone else finishes the year out with their own stuff. Now there's of course, all kinds of literary awards given out. There's awards that are specifically, you know, for children's books. Uh, there's awards for every genre and group is going to have their own awards that they give out. Um, you can go find lists of these online if it's something that you're interested in. Here is where, um, I get a little cynical with these things. Uh, one is that again, sometimes these can be hard to get nominated for if you're not traditionally published. Rekka (27:40): Right. Kaelyn (27:54): Um, this is, you know, I won't beat around the Bush here. This isn't a secret. You can go online and find out this kind of stuff easily. If you're self published, you're going to have a really hard time being taken seriously in some of these communities. It's getting better, but it's still not quite to where it, I personally think it should. Rekka (27:59): Right. Just like your family likes to hold your holiday traditions in a certain way, people do not like to let go of what they're comfortable with. And a lot of these associations were going back to their beginnings, traditionally published authors, and they saw no reason to change it yet. Kaelyn (28:18): So that's very, so like for instance, with SFWA it can be very hard to get into SFWA because you have to either have a job relevant to the industry and be recommended by a certain number of people. They need to actually write you a letter of recommendation to be admitted. Or to qualify as an author, you have to have a certain number of words published and have made a certain amount off of them in a year. Rekka (28:46): Yup. Single calendar year. Kaelyn (28:50): In a single calendar year. Um, it's not an absurdly difficult to reach some of money. Rekka (28:56): It's not impossible. And if your book takes off, even just moderately successful, you probably going to get there. Kaelyn (29:02): But if you're not a fulltime self-publishing author, it's hard. Yeah, you can go look up all the SFWA qualification stuff, but in their defense, it is a professional organization. Their goal is not when you're not here to have members that are trying to become authors. We are an established group of authors and writers already, right. Rekka (29:26): Unlike the RWA, which has gone through its own, um, metamorphosis this year, which you can find out about elsewhere if you haven't already. But, um, they have traditionally invited in aspiring authors as well as published authors. Kaelyn (29:41): Now, all of this that I'm saying about SFWA, SFWA is a fantastic organization. Um, they are an excellent resource for, you know, even if you're not a published author and you're trying to - Rekka (29:53): You're welcome to come to the nebulas whether or not you remember anyone can, can show up. Kaelyn (29:58): Um, they have a lot of good resources that, and people that they can put you in touch with. Um, they have a really good legal team that helps people with various, you know, issues that they may come up against. Rekka (30:11): Yup. There's a, a service just called a writer beware, which alerts people in a single location where, um, they can find out like, Hey, you want to watch out for this company? They have bad practices. You, you know, their contracts are gotchas and all this kind of stuff and, and you can look out for that stuff. Kaelyn (30:51): Um, whether or not you're a member, that's, that's all public information on their website. So they have a lot of great resources for people and, um, they have become sort of a, you know, a beacon to which science fiction and fantasy writers will flock. Yeah. And they're, um, they're, I know a lot of people in it. They're very nice people. Um, you know, that said, just be aware that if you are self published, it's - Rekka (30:59): It's more challenging. It's more challenging to gain entry to gain entry into find yourself particularly welcomed there. Um, and it's even more challenging to get nominated for something there. Um, the Hugo's, I would even say it's also very challenging with that. So back to, you know, so back to the awards, the things you're, you know, it's, think of the typical kind of awards you're going to get. Best short fiction, best novel, best novella, novelette, um, best, all of the various writings. Kaelyn (31:27): Now, um, game writers are starting to get more recognition. So there's a game writing award. There are sort of lifetime achievements, uh, service awards, things like that. Rekka (31:37): And then you, you have the big one, which is, you know, best novel, a novel of the year. Kaelyn (31:41): That's the best picture standing, whatever. Rekka (31:44): Um, there are career marker ones. Like, um, the beginning of a career is the outstanding award for science fiction. Um, from the Hugo, um, awards. You know, the process of getting nominated. It's, it's really like, it's exactly the way you'd get nominated for most things. You submit, there's going to be a short list that comes out within that short list. The list will be shortened further and those will be the finalists. Kaelyn (32:10): Yeah. So, um, that's another thing that it's like, it's a great feather in your cap if you have it. Most people will go through their lives without having one, one of these. And that does not mean they had to not have a successful writing career. Rekka (32:40): Right. You're going to get a temporary uptick from winning these awards. It is not going to be career lasting. Now, if you somehow manage to sweep these awards and keep getting them year after year, then that's great. But then, I mean, then people are going to start rooting against you to see you and seated by some new up and comer because you know, you've been boring them by being the predictable winner every year. Kaelyn (32:45): Um, so, you know, that's just a little about awards. It's, you know, we were kind of like, okay, well we had a question about starred reviews in the industry. I don't think we could do a full episode of that. And we were like, you know, what's also a nice thing to have but not a full episodes worth is you know, industry awards. Rekka (32:57): Um, you know, the fact is that your book for an award like that needs to have hype before it gets nominated. So the nomination is not going to hype your book because your book has already hyped people nominated because they already know about it and have already read it. So it's not like each nomination is um, you know, guaranteed new reader or anything like that on the level. Kaelyn (33:20): It's very difficult to get nominated for one of these. You could have written and outstanding book. I know someone who got a starred review for their book that is probably not going to be nominated for anything this year. Rekka (33:38): There are a lot of books released every year and the list is short and it really does come down to who do you know that can nominate you and is willing to or wants to. Um, you know, it's, it's a numbers game. It really is because there's so many awards. Lots, you know, nomination slots and there's way more books than that. And it really comes down to, you know, unlike the numbers game of like, um, market submissions and stuff like that for publications. This is also like, you've, you've got to already know enough people are fanatic for your book that, um, they're going to vote for it. Kaelyn (34:16): Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I know I keep referencing the Oscars, but like, you know, the Academy awards, people don't just watch a bunch of movies and then decide they like this one. There's marketing campaigns and you gotta take out ads and it's very personal and who, you know, and, um, it's almost like trying to get Senate votes. It's a four year consideration type thing. Um, you know, books, obviously it's not, it's not the same kind of setup. It takes a lot longer to get for a book than it does through a movie. Rekka (34:47): But and that's tricky because like, you know, if I look at, uh, an awards nomination list and say, I know I'm going to be voting because I'm a member of that year of, of that association, I look at that list and I don't go, okay, I guess I gotta read all of these and then vote. Yeah. I vote for the one that I did read and enjoyed. Yeah. If I have, you know, if I had time, I'd absolutely read the rest of them, but like I don't always have the time. Yeah. So I'm going to vote for the one that I read and enjoyed, not knowing whether I would have enjoyed some of the others on the list more or that they are more or less worthy. Like it's, it's, Ooh, I know that name. Kaelyn (35:26): It's, look, it's like the reviews. I mean, this, this episode is about subjective things. Very subjective. This is, you know, and I don't think I've ever seen books. I didn't like nominated or win anything. It's not that the books that are getting nominated, it's, you know, because a lot of people know this person or knew about the book and the book wasn't good and they got nominated. Rekka (35:50): Right. And I've seen books that I have read that I would have said, okay, well that book's just not for me. But that doesn't mean the book was bad. Kaelyn (35:59): Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's an important part of understanding the subjective nature of this in anything with this as just because the book, not every book is meant for you. Um, you know, we talk a lot about your target demographics and audiences and things, and there's nothing wrong with taking a step back and saying the writing is good. I just can't get behind the plot or this character - Rekka (36:20): Or I just, this doesn't appeal to that trope that for whatever reason, even though it's very popular. Kaelyn (36:26): Yeah. Not every book nominated is going to be something that you were in love with. You may not have heard of some of the books that were nominated just because they didn't cross your path. Um, but I think their general, you know, Rekka (36:36): The lists are usually good. It doesn't look like someone bought their way on no, but, but they have and that's because let's like, okay, just straight talk. A lot of books come out every year and a lot of them are really good. Kaelyn (36:51): Yup. And things tend to not get published if they're really bad. Rekka (36:56): I mean not always, but the evidence is there to suggest that the people who pick and purchase books know what they're doing. Yeah. Um, and I'm not just saying that cause I'm in the room with one of them. Kaelyn (37:07): Um, I know what I'm doing? Rekka (37:12): Um, but the fact is there are excellent books out there and everybody who gets published deserves to be published with, you know, asterisk on that I'm sure. But like I mean that with my heart, like if you were a writer and you, and you do this cause you love it and you work very hard and you do everything you can then like you've already done it. Yeah. Like, who cares if you're going to get an award to sit on your mantle and let me tell you, nobody wants to see you posting a photo of that to social media every day and in a month they're going to forget that you want, so don't Kaelyn (37:44): worry about it. Yeah. It's, it's one of those things that if it happens in your career, that's amazing. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean you're not a success. Rekka (37:52): Right. Or if you win it, that's awesome. You deserved it. You might also have wanted if the right people also deserve it, you might also deserve it. Yeah. I wish we could give them out like candy, but that's not how these things work. Kaelyn (38:05): Yeah. So, um, anyway, you know, that's just, that's kind of the episode of subjectiveness. Rekka (38:11): Um, um, don't pin your dreams on someone else's opinion. Kaelyn (38:15): Oh yeah. I like that. Rekka (38:16): You like that one. Okay. There's the title, but um, yeah, I, I think they combine well into the same episode because they are, they are bingo card goals. Kaelyn (38:26): It's awesome. If you got one, do not be hard on yourself. Rekka (38:30): If you have, if you haven't yet, even at the end of a very long career, you'll probably have great sales, especially if you made a full career event, but you may never get one of these things. And that's just the way that these dominoes fall. Kaelyn (38:36): Yeah. Hey, so speaking of accolades and uh, you know, giving out good stuff to people, uh, you can give us a review online. Rekka (38:51): Yes. And we will treasure it as though it were a star from Kirkus or a pretty statue of a rocket ship. Kaelyn (38:57): We would prefer five stars though, not just one. Rekka (39:00): Correct. I very much agree with that statement. Kaelyn (39:05): So yeah, if you can drop us a, a review online, that's great. Rekka (39:08): You know, speaking of things that are good and draw your attention to stuff, uh, you know, it just, it helps with, you know, feed the algorithms and get us in front of more people. And when someone's searching for writing podcasts, they'll go, Oh, well this one gets starred reviews regularly. Kaelyn (39:22): Yup. Rekka (39:23): You can find us on Apple podcasts or iTunes, depending on your Mac iOS system, you can find us on, um, all the various places that you can aggregate your podcasts for your listening enjoyment such as Spotify and, and Google play and all those others. So, um, we want to be convenient for you, but it would be super convenient for us if you could leave that review on Apple podcasts or Apple iTunes just to get them all in one spot one way or another. Unfortunately, that's, we all serve at the altar of Apple at Steve jobs. Um, so we would appreciate that. Um, you can also join in conversation with us at WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram and you can find the entire archive of all our past episodes at WMB, cast.com. Kaelyn (40:11): So Robert, thanks for the question. Um, you know, anyone else there that has questions they'd like to send us? Obviously we, you know, we do take the time to answer them. We pay attention to those things. Rekka (40:21): No question is too small for us to make a whole episode or half of one or, or come up with a way to peg on. Kaelyn (40:27): Yep. We'll do it. Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you in two weeks. New Speaker (40:27):    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week is the story of an apocalypse, the end of a world, specifically the one you created.  We’re talking about finishing your series and some of the things that can happen along with way.  What is a “good” ending?  How significant can outside influences be?  What can you do to minimize them?  Do you “owe” something to your readers?  We discuss all that, talk about some of the emotions and feelings you may come up against, and make entirely too many Star Wars comparisons. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and we’re genuinely curious, who saw The Rise of Skywalker and what did you think of it? We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, we make books podcast to show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:09   And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:13   So, um, today we're talking about kind of an inevitable conclusion, which is - Rekka:00:17   Yeah, Kaelyn keeps trying to make this about me, but I keep deflecting it back to Star Wars so I can blame someone else for the perhaps missteps that happen and creating a series from start to finish. Kaelyn:00:29   We're talking about finishing your series. Um, you know, we'll just flat out, we both just watched The Rise of Skywalker we were talking about it. Rekka:00:36   Otherwise we definitely would've been talking about game of Thrones in this [inaudible]. Kaelyn:00:41   Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Actually - Rekka:00:43   That's very true. Kaelyn:00:46   Don't get me started on that anyway. But yeah, we're talking about, you know, we did another book about, or we. Rekka:00:53   I did another book. Kaelyn:00:54   She did another book. We did a previous episode about, um, your second book in your series. And it, it's so weird because it never occurred to us to do something about finishing your series until we - Rekka:01:07   Well, we were talking about having an editor on your side and that episode. Kaelyn:01:11   Yes, that's true. Rekka:01:12   And so it was a little different and quite focused on the content of the series itself this time, without naming too many specifics, we do get into the talk about your series as a satisfying arc for, and we focus a lot on whether it's a satisfying arc for your reader, but I think we, we bring it back to the key points at the end. So definitely listen all the way through. Um, it doesn't have nearly as much star was ranting as I expected it to. Kaelyn:01:37   No we really - Rekka:01:38   There's a lot ofexasperated noises, but we to be expected, very afraid that we were going to go off on some tangent. We're going to have to trim like 35 minutes out for Patreon and luckily we're both a little tired. Kaelyn:01:48   So, um, anyway, yeah, just, you know, kind of talking about, uh, things you might encounter outside influences, um, interacting with fans and how they can influence things and what you were obligated to do in this process. Rekka:02:02   Yeah. Um, so anyway, uh, take a listen as always, we hope that you enjoy. Kaelyn:02:06   Here it comes. Speaker 2:       02:12   [inaudible] Kaelyn:02:19   So a chunch of salt tells you what to do? Rekka:02:21   Better than an astrologer. Kaelyn:02:23   Fair. Very true. We're going to start it now. Rekka:02:28   We're just going to start it whenever you want, or we can just stare at each other and think about how nice it is to be friends. Kaelyn:02:32   Yeah, that's true. That's very true. It's um, it's weird because it's clearly night in here and I'm not used to, I don't think I've ever been in here in clearly night. Rekka:02:41   There are a lot of firsts going on right now. This is the first time you've ever recorded a podcast in a scarf. Kaelyn:02:47   Is it? Rekka:02:47   Yeah. Kaelyn:02:48   Okay. Well it's like 10 degrees outside, if that, um, Rekka - Rekka:02:54   You called it refreshing. Kaelyn:02:55   It is refreshing, but you know, that's why - Rekka:02:58   Until it seeps into your bones. Kaelyn:02:58   That's why I have scarf. That's how it stays refreshing and warm enough that, you know, it's, it's uh, you can stand out there, look at the stars. It's, it's very, it's very pleasant. Um, you know, for small increments of time. Um, yeah. Rekka:03:11   Speaking of the opposite of small increments of time. Kaelyn:03:14   Yeah. Um, so we're actually talking about the end of time, a time. Rekka:03:20   I mean, even your apocalyptic scenarios, but that's not what the episodes actually about. Kaelyn:03:24   I mean, really, is this not an apocalyptic scenario? Rekka:03:26   Bats and pigs, I know. Kaelyn:03:28   Watch out for them! Rekka:03:31   Um, yeah. The scenario that brings about our topic today feels very apocalyptic. Kaelyn:03:37   It is to a lot of - Rekka:03:38   I need something plush to hug. Kaelyn:03:39   I mean, in some ways it is actually an apocalypse. It's the end of a world. Oh goodness. Okay. Rekka:03:47   I'm all right. Yeah, I know. Kaelyn:03:50   So it's never ending story where it's just nothing. Rekka:03:53   So what we're talking about today is ending a series, and this is hitting, you guys can't see Rekka's face right now, but like she's, she's having trouble with this because this is hitting particularly close to home for her because Rekka is actually in the process right now of, uh, of ending her series. Kaelyn:04:11   Um, so in a way - Rekka:04:13   I'm ending a trilogy unless sales can pick up and you might want five more. Kaelyn:04:18   In a way it is an apocalypse. Um, I think by definition I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to check that. Um, you know, we're talking about ending a series today and um, we've talked, you know, we did an episode a few weeks ago about your second book in a series, which um, this is different though because things - Rekka:04:41   The second book in a series, you can keep going up your roller coaster incline. Kaelyn:04:44   Yup. Rekka:04:44   The, the end of the series you have to pull some absurd number of loops before you can bring it home and also keep up the pacing of the first portion of the story and also make sure that everybody's a little like question marks have been turned into periods and all this stuff. Like there's a lot going on. Kaelyn:05:07   It's true. So I mean it's not, what we're going to talk about today is kind of, um, you know, this is going to be half and half. This is going to be a little bit informational and motivational. And then this is going to be a little bit emotional because Rekka has got some feelings about it. Rekka:05:19   I refuse to feel anything. Kaelyn:05:21   Okay, fine. No feelings. Um, so hypothetically, if Rekka had feelings about this. Rekka:05:28   They would be big feelings. Kaelyn:05:29   They'd be big feelings and they would probably, all of them be laced with small degrees of unadulterated panic. Rekka:05:36   Well, now that was true before. It's true now. Kaelyn:05:41   No, and I think it's completely normal to when you're getting to the end of something that you have spent, you know, regardless of the span of time over which this was published to the years leading up to it need to be counted for something that has been such a significant part of your life for so long, there's going to be a feeling of loss. And it sounds dramatic to say that, but that's exactly what it is. This thing that was a very significant living part of your life is gone now. Rekka:06:08   And there was some brief discussion when we talked about like, now you're a published author. What does that feel like? Um, this almost, and I don't use this term lightly postpartum of publishing a book. Um, definitely yeah, there is depression, there is sense of confusion of loss and you know, aimlessness and especially because as you're publishing a book, there's the part where you're drafting and then many, many months later there's the part where it comes out. And in between there, your partially moving on from the book, but you're also partially looking ahead and you're also anticipating the release and you're also anticipating, you know, the various scenarios in which you could interact with readers or readers could interact with your book during this time. And then, you know, then it's publishing day and it very rarely goes in any sort of Hollywood style fashion. Um, the best you can hope for apparently is just, you know, someone who's worked with you on the book acknowledges you with a cake, with the cover of your book printed on it in digital ink. Kaelyn:07:20   You know, I gotta I gotta make a quick note over here. Rekka:07:22   Yeah, write that down, cause I have two books out now and I have not gotten a cake. No. But the, um, the feeling is going to be multiplied by the fact that now, boom, this is, you are done with this series. This world is not somewhere you have to revisit ever again. You may, cause people do. Kaelyn:07:44   Yeah, definitely. But um, this might be the end. Rekka:07:49   Yeah. Kaelyn:07:49   So, you know, , like I said, we kind of want to touch on the, you know, the emotional from the author side of things. It is completely normal to feel a sense of loss there. I think. Um, or you know, maybe you're just ready to be done and you're excited about it. Um, I'm sure it runs the spectrum of emotion. Rekka:08:08   There's love and fatigue involved in making a book. Kaelyn:08:12   Yeah. But there's a lot of stress that comes along with finishing a series besides all of the issues of this is over now. I can't believe it there, there -- Rekka:08:25   How did it end? Kaelyn:08:26   There is a lot of stress leading up to it. Now, again, we always use examples of trilogies, but this is true of any - Rekka:08:34   Quadrilogies. Kaelyn:08:34   Any series really. Um, there's pressure to finish it, quote unquote, right. And I think right can be skewed because to me finishing it right means a satisfying ending that covers all of the, that need to be covered. Rekka:08:56   Right. There's no one correct answer. There's no set of words that is the one you must match in order to proceed to the next level. Kaelyn:09:04   Yeah, and the way we kind of started talking about this and decided to come down to this topic was the satisfying ending verse the quote unquote right ending and quickly, you know, qualifying that the right ending is one that the fans want. Now - Rekka:09:21   And they're the ones who are judging whether or not it's right. Kaelyn:09:23   Yes. Now can those two things line up? Absolutely, they can. Rekka:09:27   However, do you want them to, like if we're talking about fan theories of how the series should end, do you not want to surprise them a little bit? Like, dude, don't you like see that as like, all right, well that those are the, the ones I should avoid because they're obvious. Kaelyn:09:40   Well, and this is, this is a big problem with the advent of the internet that a lot of authors have know. George RR Martin has famously had problems with this that now granted if he wrote a little faster, maybe this wouldn't be such a thing, but we'll get into that as well. But fan theories and even fan fiction have actually caused authors a lot of grief and strife with how they're finishing their series because, well, for two reasons. One is that the potential for influence there, the other is that maybe somebody got it right and now there's something out there on the internet for all the world to see that you cannot convince everyone completely that you got it first. Rekka:10:23   Right. So here's some advice that's not on the topic and it's going to come up again later. We're going to do a social media episode, but do not read your fanfiction and try as best you can to avoid your fan theories. It seems like it'd be fun. It seems like you want to support the people who are really into your story, but you actually have some legal issues. Kaelyn:10:48   There was actually, um, a case, and I apologize, we, we paused recording so I can try to look forward and I can't find it. If I find it, I'll link it in the show notes of an author who did go and read some of the fanfiction came up with one that really liked the ending and contacted the person that wrote it to see about co-opting what they had written and kind of like partnering on it. Like, I can't remember, he was kind of at an impasse of how to, how to finish it or what have you. And there was a lawsuit about this so we could do an entire episode on issues with fanfiction and stuff. Rekka:11:25   Best practice is don't engage with fanfiction of your work. Kaelyn:11:28   Yeah. Because I'm, all of these things are influencing you and from the editorial side, the best ending to your story is the way you intended to end your story. What if you didn't know? And look, here's the thing. That's very possible, but that's, you know, that's, that's - Rekka:11:48   As an example, you know, since we're using me as an example of this hypothetical situation in which I have feels about, um, when I wrote flotsam and plan to self-publish as we've covered before in this show, I did not plan on this being a trilogy. I was going to write these characters for as long as I had readers who were interested in reading about them or until I lost interest. And so when I signed with Parvus, they did not want to buy an indefinite number of books in a series that may or may not ever get finished for some reason. Um, so what they bought was a trilogy. And that means that whether or not Parvus wants to buy more books in this world, there has to be a satisfying conclusion at the end of three books. Kaelyn:12:35   So getting to that, you know, some people know exactly how their book's going to end. Some people have to figure it out along the way, but these external influences can get very dangerous very quickly because I can - Rekka:12:50   And you are like, let's be clear, you are constantly being influenced externally. Kaelyn:12:54   Absolutely. Rekka:12:55   However, most of those influences are not specific to your characters and your plots. You might read, read a book, watch a movie, and whether consciously or subconsciously figure out how you're going to solve your plot because these ideas melded in and you know, percolated inside your head. But you hopefully are not taking direct items from a thing and saying, I am applying these, you know, the sequence of events to my story. You are being influenced in a subconscious way, but I don't think it's possible but possible to be influenced in a subconscious way when the thing influencing you is a parody, a homage - Kaelyn:13:38   You don't exist, you don't exist in a vacuum. Now, I mean hopeful, you know, I really hope everyone listening to this who's interested in writing a book, it becomes successful enough that one day they have to worry about fan theories and speculation and that kind of stuff. Um, and it's very easy in the age of the internet where there is such a thing as instantaneous feedback to start taking that into consideration when you shouldn't. You are not writing - let me qualify. All, I'm going to qualify what I'm about to say. You are not writing a book specifically to please your fans. Now it should appeal to them. And we've talked about this. You know, with your second book. Rekka:14:24   Yeah. Your existing fans are the perfect market to sell your third book to. Kaelyn:14:27   If in the trilogy we talked about this in a, in the second book episode, if all of a sudden your book flies off the rails and goes a completely different direction in their dinosaur is where there were no dinosaurs previously, nor indication that there ever could be they then that's an issue. Rekka:14:44   Yeah. I mean, you are upsetting your fans for good reason. Kaelyn:14:46   For good reason - Rekka:14:48   But your fans being upset because you didn't do the thing that they imagined doing - Kaelyn:14:51   Yes. Rekka:14:51   Is not a reason to worry about whether they're upset. Kaelyn:14:54   You are not obligated to finish the book the way you think your fans want it finished. It's, even though it's not their satisfying ending, it's a satisfying end ending. Or it can be or can be. It hopefully is. Um, so what does that look like? Well, it looks like resolving the questions, the actions, addressing the big themes and the goals of the characters. It looks like having some form of a resolution to what you started out to try to do now that may have one that may have changed along the way, but presumably everything has kind of grown out of the place that it started. Um, hopefully characters have developed and grown and changed and maybe the things that they do in the last book they would not have done in the first one. It's called character development. And it's fantastic. Rekka:15:47   It is fantastic though it is not 100% necessary. Kaelyn:15:51   Yeah. Rekka:15:51   According to some genre. It doesn't, it doesn't need to be. Kaelyn:15:54   Um, but there's also like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna throw it out there. The shipping community, they are like there. Um, don't get me wrong. There are a lot of fun. There's some truly great stuff on Twitter that I can oh Zutara, but that's, you know, that's a big, that's a big thing that also comes up a lot is not even just how the story ends, but who ends up together because we have to constantly be fixated on romantic relationships. Rekka:16:24   You don't have to actually, as it turns out - Kaelyn:16:26   As it turns out we don't. But we are. Rekka:16:27   Yeah. Um, well I think what happens is people find the tension between two characters who have chemistry and for them who prefer to ship. That becomes a fun thing to imagine, you know, and to be fair to the people out there who enjoy a good ship, they don't all expect that the ship is going to be honored. Kaelyn:16:52   Yes. Rekka:16:53   There are some times where it really, no, that's really that, that subtext is there. Kaelyn:16:59   If you publish a book, at some point you are going to see somebody online talking about it, whether it be a review or what have you. Um, if you have a big enough fan base that is really into this, especially if you've written something with a lot of mystery and ambiguity that leaves room for speculation, you're going to see people discussing it. It is unproductive to pretend that that won't get in your head a little bit. Rekka:17:28   Yeah. And it's unfortunately unrealistic to think that readers won't tag you into it. Kaelyn:17:35   Yes. Rekka:17:35   Because they will, unfortunately - Kaelyn:17:36   And they're, they're doing you a favor. Rekka:17:38   You know, they're like trying to engage with you. They're trying to express that this is a thing that has piqued their curiosity and they am and they are very interested in the results at the end. Your story road, however - Kaelyn:17:51   So that said, how obligated are writers to their fans? This is a whole debate about are writers even obligated to finish now controversially I'd say yeah, kind of. Rekka:18:07   I mean contractually - Kaelyn:18:08   Contractually is one thing. Rekka:18:09   Yes. Um, if you know, if Parvus had bought two books with a potential for a third and I didn't want to write the third, what would happen there? Kaelyn:18:25   If you didn't want to - Rekka:18:26   If you contracted for two books - Kaelyn:18:27   And you didn't want to write the third? But Parvus wanted a third? Rekka:18:30   And Parvus wanted the third. Kaelyn:18:32   Then it's to the negotiation table. And the thing is that unfortunately you're not obligated to write that. Third, we can do everything we can to get you to try to. Rekka:18:40   Entice. Kaelyn:18:41   Yes. But - Rekka:18:42   That advance just keeps growing. Kaelyn:18:45   But you don't have to. Rekka:18:46   Yeah, I don't have to. If I say no, I feel satisfied with this ending and if I open up another can of worms, then I'm not going to be, and my heart isn't going to be in it. My opinion of - Kaelyn:18:56   In this scenario is the story finished? Rekka:18:58   Well that's the question. Kaelyn:18:59   Yeah. Rekka:18:59   So Parvus is saying no or Parvus is saying, we think that you can take this little story, you know, I'm, I'm putting words in your mouth. Obviously we think you can take this little back story storyline and turn it into a thing that creates a three store. And maybe this is a problem with some other commercial properties going on right now. But, um, - Kaelyn:19:17   No, no one in particular. Rekka:19:18   Certainly no nothing. So, um, Parvus wants a third book because they think they can bank on it. Um, I feel like books one and two are a pair and they were, you know, a set and that was all that needs to happen. And so to me, I have done what I can to finish it up. Kaelyn:19:39   Yes. But I will counter this by saying that in your scenario, two books have finished a story. Rekka:19:45   Right, that's what I'm saying. So saying, yeah, and I'm saying saying we want to craft the center of trilogy. Kaelyn:19:50   Yeah, but I'm saying is there an obligation to finish an unfinished story as opposed to adding more to a finished story? Rekka:19:58   Okay. So let's say in your scenario is a moral obligation as - Kaelyn:20:03   Well that's a good question. So what are you obligated to your fans? No, I'm not talking. I wasn't even going intending to go in the direction of are you obligated to finish? Because look, here's the thing, at the end of the day, you're not obligated to anything. Your craft is your craft. It's your art. You choose to put it out into the world for people to consume. Rekka:20:24   That said, I think certain actions will put you in breach of contract. Kaelyn:20:29   Certain actions will put you in a breach of contract. And then there's also, I think a sense of duty in there somewhere that you know, people have invested their time and energy into something in this, by the way, then is also where you get the people that say who add fuel to the, I don't buy books until the series is finished fire. I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to that are casual to avid readers that say, yeah, like the trilogy, you know, they never finished it and I'm just burned. And like I hate when that happens because and, I sympathize with that because as Rekka knows I'm a story consumer, I need to know how this ends. I need to know what happens. Um, it will keep me up at night. Rekka:21:10   Absolutely. I have, there's a story and I'm trying to remember the name of the author. I know the book is literally somewhere here behind me, but since I don't remember the name of the author and I alphabetized by author on my, on my shelves recently, I don't even know where it is cause I moved it. Um, but I read this book when I was 14 and I loaned it to a friend and then the second one came out shortly thereafter or we found it because we, you know, it was new on the shelf for the second book and we were 100% into this book. It was Epic fantasy. There were so many characters. Everything was nuanced. Everyone's backstory was in there. Everyone had scars and wounds. That was like just hitting all our little preteen buttons and third book still still listed as forthcoming to this day. But I don't think it's going to happen. And unfortunately it was due to sales. From what I understand, it was not that the author didn't get around to writing it. It was that the publisher decided not to continue with the trilogy. Kaelyn:22:16   Yeah. And you know, unfortunately that can happen. But um, you know, in those cases there's reversion of rights typically. Rekka:22:22   Yes. So the author I think has the option to write it, but it's like, well, if the publisher didn't want to publish it, why should I write it? I still look for this book every now and then. Like when I come across it in my collection, which I can't do right now apparently. Um, I go and I see if anything's been said about it and I just generally find wikis about how people share, wish that book would come out well. So that's an obligation in a sense, you know, like are you obligated to finish? And that's a, that's a whole other discussion. I mean, the answer sometimes it's a sad shame that you are not given the opportunity. Kaelyn:22:55   Yeah. So the obligation is hopefully you have the will and the ability to finish the book. Beyond that, what are your obligations to your audience, to your fans, to my end and Rekka, you know, stop me if you disagree with me. The your obligations are to write a satisfying, cohesive ending. Satisfying does not mean happy. Rekka:23:21   Right. Absolutely not. Kaelyn:23:22   Satisfying to me means that the book ended in a way where you feel the story has been completed. If it's supposed to be completed, if there's more coming, there should still be some form of con, a conclusion. Rekka:23:38   Right. So sort of continuing what we were saying about are you obligated to finish the story? I would have worn anyone who's, you know, is this part of your potential future in your publishing career? If you get a two book contract, make sure there's something satisfying at the end of book two if even if you think that there should be a book three, Kaelyn:24:00   This is why so many, and we've talked about this, so many trilogies, book one is a soft ending. It is. There is sort of like, I want to call it a satisfying conclusion, but there is a conclusion there. Rekka:24:11   Yeah, I'd like to think flotsam has one. I've been accused of not having one, but I think, I think it's interpreted. Kaelyn:24:17   I thought so,yeah. Rekka:24:18   I think so. Kaelyn:24:19   Um, I will use, again, I apologize that we just keep sticking with trilogies, but I think a lot of the trouble people have with crafting the satisfying ending is if you look at trilogies, the second installment is a lot of times the favorite because how they, how they run typically is the first one's the soft ending soft conclusion. Things have kind of been wrapped up. And if that's the end of the story, then so be it. But there's clearly more to build off of there when you're then committed to a trilogy. By the end of the second book, everything is on fire. Rekka:24:55   It has to be. Kaelyn:24:56   It has to be. Yeah. You know, it's, it's a mess. Okay. Hans frozen in Carbonite, Rekka:25:03   Gandalf is dead. Kaelyn:25:06   No, he's not. Rekka:25:08   Is he? I can't Remember, I can't sit through those movies. Kaelyn:25:13   Um, the, you know, at the end of the second - Rekka:25:16   Everyone's given up hope. The worst thing that could happen seems to have happened even though it's not really the worst that's going to happen. You know, you are left feeling like, Oh my God, you can't stop there. Kaelyn:25:27   And this is also because this is when we see the characters at their lowest. Rekka:25:32   Right. Kaelyn:25:32   We see them in absolute desperation. And then when you're writing the final thing, you've got to dig them out of it now. The characters are incredibly compelling when faced with adversity and having to just keep surviving when they have to start problem solving and working their way out of it. That can be where it gets really tricky to keep the characters the same and compelling at the same time. Rekka:25:57   Right. And also, um, it occurs to me that we are, since we're using trilogies as our, our, um, example throughout the episode, a trilogy is three acts very frequently in Western storytelling. Our stories are in four acts. Kaelyn:26:16   Yes. Rekka:26:17   Which can make figuring out where you're going to stop book two and start book three in a trilogy. Very difficult and a little fiddly. Kaelyn:26:27   Well, if you're Rekka you go with a zombie apocalypse. Rekka:26:29   Look, not everybody's read salvage yet, thank you. Kaelyn:26:34   Figuring out you're right. Figuring out where, okay. I have gotten them through the point now where they need to regroup and come back and that's going to happen in book three. Rekka:26:44   But they also, the pressure is usually on that they don't have the time to step back and regroup. Yes. They have to lick their wounds while they're running into the battlefield. Kaelyn:26:54   Yeah. So this is why this can be so stressful because you've got all of this stuff typically leading into the conclusion of your story, be it a trilogy or otherwise. You have to now go back through and look at all of this stuff and decide, okay, here are the things that I absolutely must answer and this is where I will start saying your obligations come in. Rekka:27:17   Yeah. If you ask the major question, you better give it a proportionately sized answer. Kaelyn:27:24   This is Chekhov's whatever you want, if there was something in there that you dangled in front of readers, you're going to piss off readers if you'd just forget about it. Rekka:27:33   And here's where listening to fans gets a little tricky. Kaelyn:27:38   It gets dicey definitely. Rekka:27:39   Because what if that wasn't supposed to be a big deal, but the fans just latched onto it for no reason and then that's just how it is. Kaelyn:27:47   That's how the story went. But themes and questions and big lingering issues that need to be dealt with, leaving things on answered because you don't know how to deal with them. Rekka:28:01   Like never seeing Han again after he's frozen in Carbonite. Kaelyn:28:05   You know, that's kind of what Harrison Ford wanted - Rekka:28:09   Right, but they would have done something to set him back Kaelyn:28:10   They would something exactly. Rekka:28:13   Um, but if Han gets carted away in that Carbonite after he and Leah semi confessed their love to each other, that would not have been a satisfying conclusion. If we never saw Han. Kaelyn:28:25   If you never see Han again - Rekka:28:26   Either dead or aliveou need to answer something about, that situatio, it was not a conclusion in of itself. Kaelyn:28:36   This is where - Rekka:28:37   Tying up those loose ends and - Kaelyn:28:38   This is where problems, like usually I have so many examples of these off the top of my head. Rekka:28:44   This is where the dissatisfaction comes from is something that if you have made whether intentionally or not feel significant and you treat it at in the end. Like if it wasn't significant. Yeah. Kaelyn:28:55   And if it wasn't significant, that's one thing. But having like a character that you know goes off to find the MacGuffin and then we never hear from them again. Rekka:29:06   Right. Kaelyn:29:07   That's a problem. Rekka:29:08   Yeah. Like having a prophesied one come in and sent off on a quest and then that's the last we see of them. I know we keep talking about star Wars and bringing this in there and there's reasons for this and it's both because we both have watched. Kaelyn:29:20   I wasn't even thinking about Star Wars. Rekka:29:21   We both just went, well, I'm going to bring it up again because we were talking, we both just watched the rise of Skywalker and we were talking about this last night and we're fortunate enough that this episode is going to come out after the embargo on spoilers so we can get into it a little bit. We're not going to spoil it for some people. Kaelyn:29:36   I'm not even, I wasn't even gonna talk about that. I'm talking about, we were talking about the a prequel trilogy and my question was always with Anikin, okay, there's this whole prophecy of he's going to bring balance to the force. Rekka:29:47   How was that done? Kaelyn:29:48   What does that look like? What is a - Rekka:29:50   Apparently it looks like two people kissing and then reviving each other until they get bored and one decides that, you know what I'm done. Kaelyn:30:00   You know what? I'm good. Yeah, no, but like, and that was something that really bothered me about that prequel trilogy and even as Anikin and you know, the third a prequel is on fire and Obi wan standing over him. You were supposed to bring, you were supposed to balance the Force, not destroy it. Rekka:30:16   You are the chosen one. Kaelyn:30:17   You were, you know. Rekka:30:18   Yeah. Kaelyn:30:19   What does that look like? You never have explained what was supposed to happen here that didn't. Rekka:30:25   This is a can of worms because it's a prequel trilogy to which the original trilogy is now the second act. Kaelyn:30:37   It's a, yeah. Rekka:30:38   And now you need another trilogy to be the third part of the tree. What is going on? Kaelyn:30:45   There's a lot here. Rekka:30:48   I believe in my heart of hearts that fans would have just been excited to go back to the world where there are Jedi and Sith and you could just set it a few years ahead of that story and never even touched Anikin. Never touch the Skywalker saga. And it would have been a heck of a lot more satisfying than trying to Checkov rifles that came later. Kaelyn:31:09   Yeah. Rekka:31:09   But the rifles that came later were already satisfyingly concluded. So now you're creating new open endings and saying, Oh, you thought this, but here's a new question about that. Maybe what you knew was wrong. So maybe we'll answer that. Eventually accepted. It'll be a different set of directors and storytellers and a different company that owns the IP. And maybe you - Kaelyn:31:32   Look, this is a mess. Rekka:31:33   I'm just going to stop there. Do you know where this is going? Kaelyn:31:35   It's a mess. So now all of that said - Rekka:31:39   And that's a lot. Kaelyn:31:39   Yeah. I'm going to flip to the other side of, you know, like if we want to get a little good place on this, what do we owe each other? What do writers owe their fans? Rekka:31:48   Which is, okay, I have trouble with the phrase, owe, the verb to owe implies that the contract is between the author and the reader. Kaelyn:32:00   Okay. So - Rekka:32:01   By telling a story, you are in effect in this scenario proffering a contract to the reader and by continuing to read your story, your reader is accepting the contract. But if that is true, two parties signing a contract have read extensively the terms of the contract and they're both on the same - Kaelyn:32:23   Everyone read your contracts. Rekka:32:27   Or just read my books. Kaelyn:32:28   You never look, I am never going to pass up an opportunity to stress read your contracts. Rekka:32:33   Yes. So is there a contract between a reader and an author? No, because there is no legal document that says satisfy me or, and also what is the orals and the reader is not satisfied by the story and does not want to read that author again. Fine. That's how liking and not liking stories. Kaelyn:32:55   I was looking at. Oh, more in what are we, what are we obligated to each other for? What is the universe implying in terms of ethics and morality that we are required to give to each other who participate in each of our lives. So - Rekka:33:13   This hurts. This is physically painting me. Kaelyn:33:16   Um, but the direction I was going with is that - Rekka:33:19   Why don't you answer your own question because I don't know where you were going with that. Kaelyn:33:22   Is don't go out of your way to screw over your readership. Rekka:33:26   I will know that they're okay. So it's not an Oh, but it's a like have some respect for the people who have been along this ride with. Kaelyn:33:32   I will use is there's a very famous example of JK Rowling who, yeah, I know. Um, but I'll use this example because it is a good one for this scenario that where she became overwhelmed by fan response and you know, either remember the first three Harry Potter books were kind of already out before people started really taking - Rekka:33:54   Before Oprah noticed. Kaelyn:33:55   Yeah. Before there was like the excessive fan attention that it eventually got. But she, I think it was between the fourth and fifth book, took a very long time to write them because of this sudden overwhelming. Rekka:34:12   And it was between the fourth and fifth book that they suddenly started to get very, very long, very long. Kaelyn:34:17   And she has said in interviews that she was so overwhelmed, so annoyed, so by everyone with their theories and their fanfiction and all of this stuff that she was going to kill Ron out of sheer spite. Because she was - Rekka:34:30   That's not what you owe your reader. Kaelyn:34:31   Exactly. And this is, that's - Rekka:34:33   And if you can't handle it, you need to figure out how to stay away from these theories. Kaelyn:34:36   And here's the thing, she didn't eventually, because she took a step back and realize this is, you know, this is not - Rekka:34:41   As clearly we know at this point that she did not kill Ron. Kaelyn:34:43   Yes. Rekka:34:43   Spoilers, everyone, spoilers everyone. He does not die during the wizards chess life-size game at the end of the first book. Kaelyn:34:51   Um, but that's what that drove her to. And she, she says, I was in a very dark place. I was very frustrated. I was having a really hard time with this and I was going to kill Ron out of spite almost to show them, don't mess with me. Rekka:35:07   And this was before Twitter, really. Kaelyn:35:10   Yeah. Could you imagine? Rekka:35:11   Can you imagine reaching J K Rowling levels of attention on your currently in progress project. Kaelyn:35:24   In the MySpace era. Rekka:35:26   Okay, well I'm saying in the Twitter era, like can you imagine that? Kaelyn:35:29   Oh yeah, no, but I'm saying the MySpace era, um, think of getting to that point when Twitter didn't exist. That's so you can understand the stress. And everything that she must have been under in that case. And I can understand this need to latch out, lash out. Um, but that, that's just an example is writing things just to piss people off is not a good way to respect your readers. Rekka:35:56   And also writing to try and like, and this is again goes back to the don't read the stuff to try and evade the fan theories will make your story poorer because you were considering the wrong things when you're making your decisions. When I'll use myself as an example, I don't know if I'm going to do a good job, it's not done yet. But in planning out Castoff, third book in my Peridot shift trilogy, I went and I took the outlines of the two books that already existed and I went through them and I said, what, what have you, what have I opened that hasn't been resolved yet? And not only that, but in what order did I open these things? What is the first question that readers get you didn't know and what questions follow those two sort of, you know, in, in terms of like coding. Um, Mary Robinette Kowal talks about this all the time, close your tags in the order that you open them. Um, so inside to outside, you know, if you, if you freeze Han and Carbonite at the end of the second movie, the end of the third movie should not be getting Han out of the Carbonite because that is the wrong, that is the wrong culmination of your storytelling. Kaelyn:37:13   Well, and there's also levels of immediacy. So if it had been random rebel soldier frozen in carbonate, okay, maybe at the end of the movie you go get him. Yeah. Um, Han gets frozen in Carbonite for Luke and Leia, their number one priority here is going to be, we got to get Han back. Um, now is that fair to the random rebel soldier? No, but maybe he's got friends that will go rescue him instead. Rekka:37:42   So, um, soldier, you know, I assume he's a leftenant, a Rondo that he gets frozen in Carbonite and the conclusion of the trilogy is they undo the Empire's grip on everybody else. Then getting him out of the Carbonite is undoing that grip. So like that's part of that. That conclusion, but when you make it a main character, it goes deeper than that. So like what you're saying is the level of involvement that the audience has in that character. Kaelyn:38:10   Yeah. Now there is, there is something kind of glaring that we're overlooking here, which is sad endings to things and - Rekka what are you? Just get ready for castoff everyone. Rekka:38:29   I'm not saying it because of that. Um, I'm, I'm taking a deep inhale because like it makes me want to blurt out my favorite phrase when it comes to picking your endings, which is surprising yet inevitable. Kaelyn:38:43   Yes, you should inevitably be surprised. Rekka:38:47   But in other words, and this, and this encapsulates everything that I was starting to say, is that when you, when I looked in and I found the things that were open-ended and big enough to address, I needed to make sure that however I resolved those individual items or bigger things that resolve multiple items, you know, you think about them in terms of like the size of your storage containers. Like if you can take a big storage container that resolves three smaller storage containers that resolves all three of those. Don't do three oversized containers for two, three small containers. That's confusing, but you know what I'm saying? Like make the conclusion match what it's resolving. Kaelyn:39:30   I will use the phrase that, I don't remember who said this to me, but like I'm going to get it tattooed on me at some point is that the universe will always be a varying ratio of shocking and inevitable. There's surprise and an it should be surprising and inevitable and people should be able to go back and see how you got there. Rekka:39:54   Exactly. That's what I was starting to say is that the inevitable part is you set this up as far back as it needs to be to be believable. Kaelyn:40:04   Yes. Rekka:40:04   So this is why we talk about putting Checkov's rifle on the mantle and stay in act one. You don't put it on the mantle five minutes before you use it in the end of act three. Kaelyn:40:17   Yup. Rekka:40:18   Because that is not satisfying because it is not inevitable. If that rifle solves all the problems that you spent two books setting up your third book is not going to feel satisfying because you know, this is what they call a day of Deus Machina which is machine of God, meaning something, o outlandishly out of the, you know, gets dropped in from the top of the stage. This is going back to the place where - Kaelyn:40:44   Greek plays, they used to be resolved by a God showed up. Rekka:40:47   A God showed up and settled all the disputes for everybody because the only he had the power to do and the God and the machine was when records said dropped in. Kaelyn:40:54   That's exactly because it was a machine that lowered the actor playing the God onto the stage on a rope and a harness. So it wasn't, machines may be a stretch there, but like it was literally a God showed up, altered reality. Rekka:41:08   There were probably pullies, it's a simplified machine. Kaelyn:41:09   Yeah. So the um, the idea being, if that doesn't sound like a satisfying conclusion to your book, be careful about not doing that. Rekka:41:17   And the inevitable part is when you look back after you, after you have been surprised by this ending, you look back and realize, no, that makes sense. Kaelyn:41:27   That's the way it should've gone. Rekka:41:29   But you want it not to be the ending they see coming as best possible. Kaelyn:41:34   Yeah. Um, Rekka:41:35   I mean, you know that the light side is going to prevail against the dark side because that is does, that's the story. Kaelyn:41:43   That's the story. Rekka:41:44   If it wasn't set up that way, if the story was a philosophical will, the light side and the which will win, then you find out and maybe it's the dark side and that could still be the inevitable ending if you set it up that way. But that was not the way the story was set up. This story was set up of watch this kid learn, he's got this power and go defeat the dark side. Kaelyn:42:07   Yes. Rekka:42:09   Sometimes in the star Wars trilogies, that's the, that's the plot. Kaelyn:42:13   Yes. Um, who are a little fixated on star Wars still. Rekka:42:18   But we said we were going to mention it but um, it's, it's why this question is on our minds because - Kaelyn:42:28   It's hard to write a satisfying ending to such a grand thing. And grand is really the only word I can come up with to describe something that is so ingrained in our society. Rekka:42:41   I mean it's beyond just like a phenomenon. It is a culture. So we had, so a lot of people have emotional ties to it that are beyond what come from the emotional story getting. Kaelyn:42:52   So finishing it, anyway. Finishing your trilogy is, it's a hard thing to do and some people will already know how it ends and hopefully if that's the case, your any changes you make are going to be coming from you rather than what you're reading. Rekka:43:07   But also there is the possibility that when you started this you saw it going a different way and then as you worked with the publisher there were changes made that opened opportunity to end it in different ways. So it's okay if you don't lock down your ending at the, you know, before your publisher has sent you revision notes. I mean like we're not saying that, but we're saying is that there is a direct yet perhaps, um, a femoral line that leads from the first page of the first book to the last page of the last book. Kaelyn:43:47   Yeah. It feels like it's one story. You should at the end, your reader should feel like they have read a complete story and I would say that's what you're obligated to write. So that didn't notice, we didn't tell you how to do it. We didn't tell you how to do it. But that is, that is kind of what you owe to your books. Rekka:44:13   Yeah. And I like it phrased that way better because you know, for some people they are just trying to write the story and their concern is not publishing it ever. There might be beautifully written, beautifully conceived and structured trilogies or Quadrilologies out there that will never see printing because it was just for the writer to get the story out. And that is honestly a great mindset to approach your story from do right by the story first. And the readers who are not trying to take, and I'm hesitant to use this phrase, take ownership of the story and the characters, um, they should be satisfied if the story is served then. So as your reader. Kaelyn:45:05   Yeah, I completely agree. I think that that's, you know, that's kind of what you should be shooting for in the end there. And it does not have to be a happy ending. Rekka:45:15   Nope. Kaelyn:45:15   It has to be satisfying yet it has to answer questions satisfying and surprising. Exactly. So, um, which by the way, I think Rise of Skywalker, Rekka:45:28   I did have it, Kaelyn:45:28   I don't know how surprising it was. Um, I kind of knew where we were going to end up. I didn't know how we were going to get there. Rekka:45:36   And maybe that's the surprise. Kaelyn:45:38   Yeah. New Speaker:  45:38   The point is the journey I guess. I guess. So on that, on that rotation olds trait sayings. Yes. On that note. Um, so, you know, I guess you can let us know what you thought about star Wars, but you probably already have told the world on Twitter if you're, if you're likely to voice it. New Speaker:  45:55   So, but you know what, we, I would be interested to hear, were you satisfied with the ending and to further that question, part B is, were you satisfied with it as a whole of the nine movie Epic versus the more recent three movie trilogy? You know, taking the neutral G as the third in the star Wars guy. Speaker 1:       46:19   I curse the Skywalker saga. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a mess. No one's happy about it. All right, so let's, let's go inside. Okay. And, um, forget everything we just talked about for a little while so that I can sleep tonight. Well, so thanks everyone for listening. I'm, you know, hopefully this was interesting. At least I am dead serious by the way. I really would be very curious, ping us and tell us re satisfied with that ending because that's kind of what spawned this episode was definitely was talking about that. All right, so that's that WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram. You can find the back episodes of the podcast@wmbcastdotcomandwewouldloveifyoucanaffordtosupportusatpatrion.com forward slash WMB cast and we will talk to you in two weeks. See, in two weeks, everyone.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re going to other side of book distribution and that is taking a closer look at traditional book distributors.  Who are these people and what sorcery do they perform to teleport your book into the hands of readers everywhere?  Well, right off the bat, they are working their magic: It’s just distributors, there are also printers, and whole sellers, and warehouses.  We’re going to go through all the people involved in traditional print distribution and what part they have in getting your book out into the world. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and seriously people, who saw Cats?  Come on, tell us, which part horrified you the most? We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Rekka:00:00   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between and sometimes a little bit after. And this is our final episode of 2019. Kaelyn:00:10   Oh my God, it is. I didn't even know - Rekka:00:12   Our innagural year is to come to a close. We managed to get in 25 episodes. Kaelyn:00:16   I was going to say, because 26 would have been if we were doing every week and we started in may. Rekka:00:21   Every other week. But yeah, we started in may, but what we had were batches. Kaelyn had a September idea, so if you haven't, if you're just joining us now for the first time, we have lots of episodes including an entire month from September of weekly episodes and then some Submissions September. Kaelyn:00:40   God, we ended up with like nine episodes in September I think. Rekka:00:44   I think it wasn't nine, but it was a lot. Kaelyn:00:49   Maybe it was seven. I don't see, this is the thing, I've blocked it from my memory. I don't even remember now. Rekka:00:53   Yeah. Um, so this, this episode we're doing the beyond the publishing. Kaelyn:00:59   The, yeah, the beyond the publishing. Rekka:01:00   Well it's still part of the publishing or the publishing process. But as far as the publisher themselves, yes, they lose a little bit of control right here. Kaelyn:01:09   Yeah. And this is, this is also, you know, when we were talking about the other side of distribution today we're talking about getting your book out into the world, using a distributor. And you know, we're going to talk about some terms and some differences in various groups of people that you've encountered along the way. Um, I will say upfront, this was a difficult episode for me to do and this is one where I'm doing a lot of the talking. Rekka:01:33   This is my fault because the last episode, episode 24 was the self-publisher or indie, very small, um, operations side of this where it was almost all digital pod meaning print on demand, which is basically digital until they turn around and shoot out a copy to the reader. So, um, and very specific and very specific and step-by-step. And there were some, you know, concrete things we could tell you. And so I then after or before we recorded that, I turned to Kaelyn and said, and you can go next time and her eyes. Kaelyn:02:04   Oh God. Because here's the thing I I deal with are with Parvus Press' distributor, Baker and Taylor publishing services. It's not fun for me though. Not, not because of the people. The people are great. Just - Rekka:02:19   Especially the authors. Kaelyn:02:20   Yeah. Just managing this kind of stuff is very confusing. And this is like you and to talk about, you know, the behind the curtain stuff. I think a lot of people out there have no idea what's going on in the background here because sometimes I feel like I barely have an idea of what's going on in the background here. Um, so, you know, I tried to keep it very broad because as specific as last week is, this is one that is just all over the place. There can be any number of combinations of people and practices. Yeah. If you say something specific, it's going to be wrong in, in enough circumstances that it's not percentage that it's, yeah. Rekka:02:54   It's bad info. Kaelyn:02:55   So, yeah. Um, you know, I, I hope everything didn't come out as confusing as I feel like it sounded it did. Yeah. So it's a little bit of a shorter episode, but it's just because it's so broad. Rekka:03:09   But we just want you to get back to your new year holiday and that was the last day of the year. Kaelyn:03:13   Why are you listening to us go, you know, do something - Rekka:03:15   Well, no, listen to us. And go do something. Kaelyn:03:17   Listen, listen to us while you're doing something you have to do before the year ends, right? Rekka:03:21   Yeah. So, so, um, on that note, uh, thanks again for tuning in and enjoy the episode and we'll talk to you next year. Kaelyn:03:27   Next year. Rekka:03:41   You weren't working in a, um, a, mine while you were in Montreal? Kaelyn:03:45   No, a corporate mine does, does that count? Rekka:03:49   Can you get black lung from corporate mind? Kaelyn:03:51   No. You get black heart from corporate minds. Rekka:03:53   Your heart shrank three sizes. Kaelyn:03:55   Yes. Yes. It's, it's microscopic at this point. It's very difficult to find even with the best of telescopes. Rekka:04:03   Or microscopes. Kaelyn:04:04   Or microscopes. What I was going more with like the black dwarf star. No, but you're right. Microscope was more appropriate than we like looking into space biology versus astronomy. So, um, so, Hey everyone, uh, this is, um, today we're talking about the second part of distribution. And by that we mean, um, using actual distributors for your books. Rekka:04:27   Not the self publishing print on demand, do it yourself bootstrapped version. Kaelyn:04:33   Yes. Um, so you know, Rekka got to say all of, uh, go through all her stuff last week and this week it's my turn. This is, it's going to be a little bit of a shorter episode because it's not going to be as technical. Rekka:04:49   There won't be instructions cause someone else will do this for you with any luck. Kaelyn:04:53   Exactly. Yeah. So when you think to yourself, Hey, what's the advantage of going with a distributor? All of that stuff we talked about two weeks ago, you don't have to do that yourself. Um, which was a lot. That was, that was our longest single topic episode. Rekka:05:10   Yeah. Kaelyn:05:10   Um, we've had some that were a little longer, but they were interviews and compilation question episodes. Yeah. So, um, but it was good. It was very informative. Rekka:05:21   Yeah. I was really happy with how it came out. I think, like I said in that episode, it was the only time that, to my knowledge that the okay, start here and then do this and then do this sort of thing was covered in one place. Um, obviously we didn't get into all the other self publishing, you know, favorite topics like Amazon ads or anything like that. I don't know if we will ever cover those on our own. I think we need to bring in somebody else and here's the problem. It'll change. Kaelyn:05:50   Yes. Rekka:05:50   In a couple months. Kaelyn:05:51   It's, you know, you brought up a very good point in that episode, which was as soon as someone has a class on and puts that information out there, it's basically useless. Rekka:06:00   Yeah. The time it takes to publish that information is the time it takes for those, you know, various channels to change the way that things work at all. Exactly. Um, but as you pointed out before we started recording, what you're about to talk about hasn't changed very much at all in a long, long time. Kaelyn:06:20   Yeah. It was funny. You know, like those, those thoughts you have when you're falling asleep. I had just finished editing the, uh, previous episode. Rekka:06:29   Episode 24. Kaelyn:06:30   Yeah. And I was like, I don't want to say in a snit, but like I was feeling very like, this is ridiculous how, you know, authors and publishers are treated with, you know, this kind of stuff. And like, I hope this helped. And then I was thinking to myself like, you know, there's a reason that we can kind of talk about all of this in, I know it was a long episode, but it was a relevantively short span of time. And that's because this hasn't changed much. Um, yes, there's, you know, the digital components and there's computers and, um, I was talking to Rekka about this before we started recording that. Anything that you really needed to be like a skilled expert in. And by that I mean like it was almost like a trade, is kind of gone. Um, you know, there's graphic designers who have of course taken up that mantle, which, you know, that's, that's kind of almost the only remnant left of physical book production. Rekka:07:29   Physical letter setting - Kaelyn:07:31   A physical, like graphic designers have taken so many aspects of that on in there. Rekka:07:37   There, there are definitely things that I do on the daily as a graphic designer in inside and outside publishing. That was never covered even 11 or 12 years ago when I was graduating as a graphic designer from an art school. This stuff was never anywhere in the curriculum. Kaelyn:07:56   Yeah. So, um, I don't know. It's just, it's interesting. You know how this has been - Rekka:08:00   And a little frustrating. Kaelyn:08:01   Yeah. So, um, but along those lines we're talking about the other side of getting your books printed and out into the world, which is distribution. Um, so real quick some definitions and terminology here because I want to establish something. When we think of a distributor, we think of an entire process. That's actually two parts. We think. We think distributor, we think, you know, you give this book to this person and they go through the whole process of uh, printing it, warehousing it, marketing it, getting it to resellers, third party resellers, which are like Barnes and noble and bookstores. There's actually two different groups, I will call them in there. There's a whole sellers and there's distributors. Basically the major differences, wholesalers, process orders and ship books. Distributors are marketing books. They're talking them up, they're doing research and focus groups and trying to figure out where this book fits in and who's the best people to get it in front of. Rekka:09:07   They're out meeting librarians at trade. Kaelyn:09:09   Exactly. Rekka:09:09   Yes. So you'll notice I left something out there, which is the printing, the production of the book. Um, that can vary wildly. Um, and it really depends how you want to do it. And we'll get into that a little bit. So you're an author, you've signed with a publishing house that is distributed. Um, there are dozens of distributors in the country. Um, Oh, and just to qualify, I'm talking about primarily U S practices here. Um, internationally I think you'll find in Western and English speaking countries. It's kind of the same with, you know, some nuances. But we are, we are talking again as per usual, primarily U S because international, you know, that can vary a lot and really muddy the waters. So we're, we're going to stick with U S um, so you've written a book, you've signed with a publishing house that is distributed. Um, so you're probably wondering like, okay, I finished the book, I sent it to them. They said, cool, that's done everything sent off. So what's happening to it now? Kaelyn:10:12   And let's just say that is exactly how it goes. Rekka:10:14   Yeah. Kaelyn:10:14   I sent it to them. They said, cool. It's done. Rekka:10:17   Yeah, I know. Well, obviously, Kaelyn:10:19   We covered this process in other - Kaelyn:10:19   You know, you go back and listen to every other episode leading up to the, it's cool, it's done part of this. Rekka:10:27   So where's my book? Why can't I hold it yet? Kaelyn:10:31   Well, your books sitting in a digital file somewhere at a, uh, at a print shop and when I say a print shop that makes it sound much more adorable and um, homespun than it actually is. This is sitting in a giant manufacturing and production environment and giant bespoke. Yes. So we're actually going to start with the printers because obviously before anyone can do their jobs here, they need to have the book, right? Rekka:10:58   And we're talking about not your word document, we're talking about the layout files and - Kaelyn:11:02   We're talking about the entire completed file that can be put into a computer and then printed to make a book. So a distributor gets your book, what are they gonna do with it now? Well, the first thing is they've got to get it printed. And these next steps get a little complicated and wonky because all of this is depending on internal setup. Um, I'm going to use, so Ingram and Baker and Taylor publishing services are the two kind of big guys here. Now there's does, like I said, there's dozens and dozens of other distributors. Um, there's actually a whole Wikipedia article on us book distributors, which I mean they have, they have everything on it. Everything. Um, the distributor needs to get the book printed. Now I'm not going to go too much into the means by which this happens because some places have them in house that you can use their print services and maybe they'll give you a discount on them. Um, you can, if you want, get your books printed in China and then sent to whoever needs to have them in order to get them distributed. Kaelyn:12:18   Uh, it all depends on contracts and you know, everything's, everything's negotiable as they say. Um, but the whole point is that the distributor needs to get the books. The whole seller is going to warehouse the books. So now what's happening is you've got 5,000 copies of your books sitting in a warehouse somewhere. The whole seller has a list of all of those. And this is not some pretty magazine with lots of, you know, pictures of the covers and it's a spreadsheet with ISBNs. Um, it's, it's a spreadsheet with numbers, titles, relevant pricing information, maybe some information about genre. That's it. And third party sellers, the bookstores are just looking down this list. And it's, I mean, it's an order form. You can go online and find pictures of these there. Um, any mean these are like, I can't even call them ... catalogs almost doesn't seem right because catalog implies - Rekka:13:22   It's a product list. Kaelyn:13:23   Yeah. A catalog implies some organization and ease to navigate. It's a product list is exactly what it is. So third party sellers go through this and they just say, I want this many of this, this many of this. The order goes to the whole seller. They go to the warehouse, they load up that number of books, and then those get shipped out to the wholesaler. So then how does the bookseller know what they want? That's where the distributor comes in. The distributor has a marketing team whose job is to sell books to, you know, whatever their specialty is, be it, you know, uh, third party sellers like bookstores or to libraries, to schools. Um, any, anyone that's interested in buying books. Um, by the way, for anyone who says libraries are dying, libraries are still one of the single biggest purchasers of books. And they're great because they don't return books. Rekka:14:22   Right. Kaelyn:14:24   Um, and we'll get into returns later. Rekka:14:26   And how that, how, just to clarify, you said anybody who wants to buy books, we're still talking business to business level. Kaelyn:14:31   Yes. We're still talking business to business level. Um, you can't go to Baker and Taylor publishing services and say, I would like one Salvage please. They're going to go, cool. You should go online and get that. Please buy it from us, but do it online. You're never going, you know, you as an individual consumer of books are never going to get one of these massive product lists of books, you know, check a box, send it back to them and have a book show up. Rekka:14:59   This is, you know, this is business to business. Kaelyn:15:02   Right. Um, so the distributors have a whole team of people and like we're saying before recording, I always felt like distributor was a little bit of a misleading name because it makes it sound like they're the ones handing out the books. What they're actually doing is trying to get other people to buy the books of the wholeseller can hand them out. Rekka:15:23   Right. Kaelyn:15:24   Um, they have sales reps who are specialized and focused in particular areas. They go to book fairs to market meetings, they go to, you know, sales conferences and they have the book out there and they go, yeah, this is a really great book. It's going to be, you know, hot on the market. Uh, it's this genre it's really going to appeal to this demographic. This author has, you know, a really great track record with this kind of group of people. You should buy a thousand of them cause they're trying to get the stores to buy the book to keep it in stock. Rekka:16:05   So the question that comes to my mind at this point is if a distributor has accounts with multiple publishers and those publishers themselves are deciding which of their books they want to push, more or less. Yeah. How does, how does the distributor like, where's the, the um, you know, like the one that's actually in their hand that they're handing out at these things versus the 25 in their catalog? Just random numbers. But - Kaelyn:16:34   Distributors are just handed things by publishers. Rekka:16:39   When a publisher signs with a distributor, it's all the publisher's books. Kaelyn:16:41   They don't have as acquisitions and new releases come up, they distributors don't have the option to go, Hmm, yeah. You know what, we're not too sure about this one. They're not involved in the process. That's the publishers. So, you know, I don't know how awkward a situation that ever. Um, I'm sure I'm sure things like that have happened. So anyway, they will have people who just specialize in, I mean really like granular specific kinds of books and they go to all these conferences and um, you know, there's, these are seasonal. There's, you know, of course the spring versus the fall catalogs. Um, there's all of this stuff they know about timing things with how they hit the market. Um, like for instance, I was talking to, so a part of his press is distributed through Baker and Taylor publishing services. And I was talking to someone there and I was kind of trying to figure out a release date and she was telling me like, well, don't do it, don't do December. Kaelyn:17:40   And I said, why not? She said, well, because everything then is focused on Christmas and it's not a bad thing necessarily to have your distributed in December with a Christmas focus. But we at Parvus we're independent. Maybe we're not big enough to really make sure we're not drown out by everyone else. You will notice there are a lot of book releases in December and they try to capitalize on this. And then January and February is just dealing with all of the leftovers. And I don't mean leftover releases, I mean the returns, the, you know, what have you, after the December releases, I don't mean, you know, we're just dealing with whatever comes next. Um, it's also started in the new year. So there is like their strategy and some of these things apply more to certain genres than others. You know, they know like what kind of books are really going to do well for summer reading. So they'll say, Hey, this would be a good thing to release in may and June because it's going to be everyone's beach book for the year. Rekka:18:44   Most people have heard a little bit in one way or another about how Hollywood just decides what time of year they're going to release their movies. Kaelyn:18:51   This is pretty similar. Yeah, and to be clear, the distributor does not get to decide these things, but they can advise. They're certainly very helpful to talk with. So you know, the distributor, like for all of this work that the marketing team with the distributors are doing and like I, I shouldn't even call it a marketing team because really they're, they're in sales. That's, you know, that's their job. Um, they have a marketing team, they have research that they work with, but distributors themselves are not really going to be doing a super lot to market this book. Rekka:19:28   So just to touch on real quick, you know, as you're going, so like, okay, so great. So what's the publisher doing and all of this? Kaelyn:19:34   They are also marketing the book. They're the ones when you see like ads for books. Like I live in New York and like, believe it or not, I do see ads on the subway sometimes for books or on taxi. I've even seen him on taxis and buses. I was really surprised. But you know what I've seen recently and um, I'm sorry, but we need to take a minute and talk about this. Some incredibly disturbing Lifesize 3d ads on the size of buses and taxis for the movie Cats. Rekka:20:01   No, we're not going to talk about that. No, I'm sorry. No - Kaelyn:20:04   I'll put a picture up of the bus, you needs to know. Rekka:20:09   No, don't, don't expose her. Kaelyn:20:11   No. You need to see what they did to one of those double Decker tourist buses. I'm going to put a picture of it on the Instagram. Like I, I'm sorry everyone, but like this is, this is happening. So, um, I just, I'm sorry, but like I saw that on, I needed to get, I was actually sitting in a Barnes and noble when I saw it. Rekka:20:29   Just to bring it back around. Kaelyn:20:32   Just to bring it back around. Rekka:20:32   So [laughs] So for a person who walks into Barnes and noble, dropping that topic, like a hot potato. Kaelyn:20:39   Rekka's really having trouble with this everyone. You should see her face. Rekka:20:43   So you're in Barnes and noble - Kaelyn:20:46   They edited out all of the bulges and boobs. Rekka:20:49   So - Kaelyn:20:52   I don't know. I haven't seen the movie. I saw the play once when I was a kid and I was even very confused by - Rekka:20:57   It's a musical. Kaelyn:20:58   Sorry, yes the musical. Rekka:21:00   I've seen it several times. There's a thing called the dance belt. You don't have to edit out anything, hopefully. Um, so - Kaelyn:21:08   They edited out everything. Rekka:21:11   I know it's terrifying. This is why I want to move on and I feel like it's just nothing what I ever wanted to see again. Kaelyn:21:22   I feel like, you know, it's our responsibility to acknowledge that something like this happened and check and make sure everyone's okay. Rekka:21:28   Okay. So all right. @WMB cast on Twitter did you see it. Kaelyn:21:34   Did you see cats? Rekka:21:35   Did you want to, were you taken against your will? Are you okay? Do you need a hug? Kaelyn:21:40   How are you feeling? Just in general? Does life still have meaning to you? Rekka:21:43   Alright. So publisher's going to market directly to the consumer of the books - Kaelyn:21:47   So yeah the publisher, the publisher is the one responsible for the real marketing, the direct marketing campaign. Um, now this is, it's all kind of cyclical because the publisher is trying to get people excited about the book to get the bookstore excited about to get the bookstores excited about the book so that the distributors can go sell these to the bookstore because the distributors are trying to get the bookstores excited about the book. Rekka:22:12   Right. And so neither happens without the other part. Kaelyn:22:15   Exactly. Yeah. It's all like, I hate to say this, but like it's all hype. That's the biggest strategy in book marketing right now is getting people excited about books, which we are, we love books. We're always excited about them. Rekka:22:32   But the word hype is very scary for an author who's feeling like the brain weasels about how like they're an imposter and they're going to be found out as soon as all these orders come through and people read the book, you know, it turns out it wasn't worth all that hype, but you can't sell it without the hype. So we do the hype. Kaelyn:22:48   Yep. It's, um, it's such a finicky industry and is the next logical step here is then, okay, so what's happening with all the books sitting in the warehouse? How does the distributor come into this? The answer to that is that could be multiple different things. Um, because again, all of this depends how your distributor works. Now if for instance, it's Baker and Taylor publishing services, they've got their own warehouse and their own wholesaler. That's a subsidiary of them. And just as a quick aside, some of you might be going, Baker and Taylor did and I hear that they closed their wholesaling. Rekka:23:28   Yeah there was a poorly handled press release. Kaelyn:23:31   Yeah. So you'll hear me every time we say this, Baker and Taylor publishing services, which is different than Baker and Taylor. So Baker and Taylor in may of 2019, I believe the press release was actually May 1st, 2019 put out what was not a great press with, um, because I got several panicked text going, Oh my God, is Baker and Taylor shutting down? You guys just signed with them. Yeah. Baker and Taylor stepped away from the wholesale book business to focus on libraries and education reselling. Baker and Taylor publishing services still exists and is still a wholesale seller of books. Um, so if you're, for some reason ever bringing that up, you have to make that distinction because I get in trouble sometimes - Rekka:24:30   And I've had bookstore owners argue with me. Yeah. Then they say no, Baker and Taylor is gone. Yeah, Taylor is gone from your catalog. But there is this other company. Kaelyn:24:43   Well Rebecca and I were talking about this at the time that like this was, it was not a good press release because they did not make it clear that there was still that Baker and Taylor publishing services still existed and was still doing this because, and we can get into a whole thing about the name publishing services, but even, you know, making that sound even worse. Kaelyn:25:03   But anyway, so Baker Taylor publishing services has their own warehouse in stock of these books that they want, you know that they're going to have in one place and people are going to buy and they're going to send out to them. Um, I'm using Baker and Taylor publishing services as an example, but um, you know, this can vary wildly. So Barnes and noble comes to them and says, I want a thousand of this book. It sounds awesome. I think it's really going to sell a lot. The warehouse is the one that's going to process the order and get that to Barnes and noble. Now in this case, all of the sale related things are going through Baker and Taylor publishing services because they've just got everything together. So that's kind of the rundown of what the distributor is doing and how this is getting in front of you. Now the next question is how does anyone get paid on this kind of thing? Rekka:26:03   Sounds expensive. Kaelyn:26:04   Yeah, now, we've talked a little bit about this in the money episode of you know, how all of this trickles down. But how is the other side making money on this? And again, I'm going to speak in very broad terms because there are so many components and moving pieces to this. There's a lot, like everything is different here. So the Publisher's got to get the books printed. Rekka:26:30   So you need to start with a product and the product has a parts and labor cost. Kaelyn:26:35   Yes. So in this case that is printing and producing the book, because what's going to happen, the distributor is going to say, we have orders for this many already and we think that it's going to be this many more. The, we're going to speak here in round hypothetical magic numbers because this is not actually how much this costs. Um, so let's say this is a publisher that uses an overseas press. You know, they, they get the books printed themselves and then get them warehoused. They've got the, they bought the books for three bucks a book and let's say they have a thousand of them. So, so it's $3,000 depending on what's going on here. The wholesaler is going to buy the books from the publisher. Wholesalers themselves are very passive entities in all of this. Their only job is to get the order, send out the order. They don't care about the marketing, they don't care about, you know, how much this is selling. They've just got a giant building full of pallets of books. So they're going to buy now at this point we're talking cover prices. So they're going to buy this at a pretty steep discount off the cover price. Rekka:27:59   Which the publisher has determined based on knowing that there will be all these discounts coming. Kaelyn:28:03   Yes, yes. So then when the reseller, the bookstores buy the book, they're also getting a discount off the cover price. So what's happening here is everything is a little bit of a step up. So let's say the books for $3 each, the warehouse, the whole seller is buying them for $5 each, and maybe Barnes and noble is buying them for $7 each and they're going to sell them for $15.99. Rekka:28:31   Right. Kaelyn:28:32   And they're keeping whatever they sell from that book. Rekka:28:34   Nothing - the bookstore does not pay any money except for their initial order. Kaelyn:28:40   But then they're going to have something else factored in, which is the ability to return the books. There are, there's a lot of math that goes into this and I hate it. It's complicated and ambiguous sometimes, which is not two words you usually hear together. Um, Barnes and noble for instance, can say, look, this book was not selling well. I still have 500 of them. They're taking up room on my shelves. I don't want them. Here you go. And wholesalers and distributors are kind of at the mercy of this because really at the end of the day here, you want to talk about the power structure. You want to talk about, you know, in the publishing world, it's not the agents, it's not the publishers, it's not the acquisitions editors. It's not even the distributors, the real people with the power to do whatever the hell they want. Here are the bookstores. And I don't think we think that because we think like, Oh, bookstores. Yeah. But they're the ones at the end of the day who are the cutthroat that can say, I don't want this anymore. Take it back. Rekka:29:47   And they can do this at any point. Kaelyn:29:49   Yes. Rekka:29:49   If they forget to unpack the books and they realize, shit, I've had this sitting back here the whole time. These were new releases two months ago, but they're not new releases now. Or they were two - they were new releases two weeks ago, but there's something bigger that's taken off. I'm just going to, I didn't even open this box. I'm just going to ship it back. Kaelyn:30:05   Yeah. Um, now if you know you had a book that like they had a few stray copies bought here and there like maybe, you know, one book sitting on the shelf isn't as big a deal to them. It could sit there for a very long time if they just decided like, yeah, we're just going to leave that there, it's fine. Rekka:30:24   So, or if they happen to notice the sequel's coming out soon. Kaelyn:30:27   Yeah. Yeah. So the returns, they just get to say, here, take this back. So what does that do to your money? Well, that I won't say you give it back. A lot of times it's more, it's a deduction against future earnings. Um, which you know, like this is, this is any, anything that you're producing a product for, you're going to run into this. Rekka:30:51   So the publishers account with the distributor, just based on what you said to clarify is almost like a, a line of credit, but not like a credit card. Like if you have $20,000 limit on your credit card, they're not gonna eventually pay the $20,000. But you know, yeah. Kaelyn:31:08   So like, well actually that's, that's a good way in to say, how does the publisher get money from all of this? Because the publisher is getting the money a percent. The distributor is taking off a percentage based on what went out to the retailers. They're selling the books for the publisher. And by selling the books for the publisher, I mean, they're the ones trying to get people to buy these books. So, you know, in theory what should be happening is every month, every quarter, however this goes, you just have, you know, your accounting statements going through saying like, Hey, you did a $5,000 in new sales, there was, you had $1,000 in returns, so this month you're getting four grand. So returns can be a scary thing. Rekka:31:54   Um, with, uh, wholesale books and this is why a print runs for, you know, a new release are going to vary based on the estimates you were mentioning earlier where they, they already have this many orders. They're going to print this many because it looks promising. Kaelyn:32:09   Exactly. Yeah. That's how many they think they'll sell because everybody wants to avoid the returns at some point. Rekka:32:14   Yeah. Kaelyn:32:16   Sh, kind of round out the conversation with this, with that this was more definitional and process in this episode. All of these components that we talked about here, the printing, the whole sale, the distribution, they're all interchangeable. They can all be coming from different sources thinking and look, and this is the case a lot of the time that if you're going to go through Baker and Taylor publishing services, then you go through Baker and Taylor publishing services and you don't really think about too much of it. It just kind of is handled. That's not always the case. And frequently it's not. Um, so this was just kind of more meant to be informational. Um, you know, not, not the process because there is no standard process with this. There is the print to wholesaler to distributor to bookstores to into the hands of readers. If that's, that's the best flow I can give you. How far you have to go in between those points is varies wildly. Rekka:33:25   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:26   Um, so that was the distribution - Rekka:33:30   Right. As much as we can really cover in one episode. It's funny, we had to trim out so many side conversations because we knew that that side conversation is going to take us in a direction that's gonna make this a four hour episode. Kaelyn:33:42   Yeah. And here's the thing. If all of this sounds complicated, I'll just, I'll say it, we, there are big chunks of this we're taking out where I had to stop and go, I have to restart that whole thing all over because I'm going off in a direction that's confusing. Rekka:33:56   This is, it is a confusing process and this is, I think one of those, you know when we talk about like the thick curtain that publishers and process hide behind, I think this is one of the stranger aspects of it and sometimes that that curtain is not so much there because they're trying to hide it from you. But because it's something like this where you can't just easily explain it. Kaelyn:34:17   And honestly, if - Rekka:34:18   Maybe a publisher is trying to protect their author from worrying about stuff like don't worry, like I don't, I, this is not, I'm happy to be on this phone call with you, my lovely author. However we could talk about something that's actually going to like, you know - Kaelyn:34:29   Yeah for authors, this is not your job to worry about this is this is the publisher. And then even with the distributor, they're taking things away from the publisher and telling them, don't worry about that. We've got that. Rekka:34:39   Yeah. So they're out of it's job security. Kaelyn:34:42   Yeah there is some degree of specialization here where it's like, look, this is our thing to worry about. You worry about that other thing. Rekka:34:49   Right. And that's a good thing because you want that somebody is not going to try and micromanage the parts that they aren't professional about. Kaelyn:34:59   Yeah. So, um, like I said, this is now one thing - Rekka:35:07   Not that they're not professional. I just mean it's not there. It's not their job. Kaelyn:35:11   It's not their job. It's not their specialty. Rekka:35:13   Um, if they get involved is going to make it worse. Not better. Yeah. Kaelyn:35:16   This by the way, I'm going to end on this note is one area that if you are very interested in learning more about this, this is something you can go online and actually find out a lot of information on because this is one of those areas with sort of definitive, uh - Rekka:35:31   The steps and processes and the only thing you're missing is the, the part with the contract where all the prices are agreed. Kaelyn:35:37   Yeah. And also like this is, this is something that is, is delineated. The wholesaler does this, the distributor does this, the publisher does this, this isn't one of those. Well and then sometimes, and you know, not always, and I know I just got finished saying like sometimes and not always. Rekka:35:58   Yeah. Kaelyn:35:59   I know I just got finished saying that like the process is not, but the linear way in which this happens, publisher to printer printed a wholesaler, wholesaler, distributor, distributor to bookstore, bookstore to reader, that doesn't change. Um, if you're interested in finding out more between the difference between distributors and wholesalers, you absolutely, this is something you can go online and find information about. I warn you, it's a rabbit hole because what you're then going to find is all of the weird, interesting, different ways that distributors and wholesalers are connected and how they're all under our umbrella parent companies and the incestuousness of the publishing industry and - Rekka:36:42   Lannisters of publishing, um, - Kaelyn:36:44   Baker and Taylor publishing services is owned by Follete. So, you know, it all comes full circle somehow. So anyway, um, that's, you know, that's where we're going to leave you here. Um, I hope that wasn't too confusing - Rekka:37:00   And if you do have specific questions or if some of that was too broad, yes. We can try to, to answer them in like a, a listener questions episode. Yeah. But we're like, well, Kaelyn said she had to stop and start because there were so many details that could have really made this a lengthy episode beyond what would be reasonable. So trying not to, trying to get specific on this kind of stuff will make you too specific that it's not helpful. New Speaker:  37:26   Yeah. And no longer applies in a way that's going - New Speaker:  37:28   I mean like she could say this is what Parvus does and that's not going to be what Tor does. New Speaker:  37:34   Exactly. So that's, yeah, it's not a direction we really want to take the conversation. Speaker 1:       37:40   But if you do have specific questions like I don't understand X about the whole sale, then we'll try and answer that for you. New Speaker:  37:49   It's funny because this episode, a strong departure from last weeks that was very specific, this then this, then this. But if you're doing a print on demand and a, you know, digital self publishing and things is there are steps and like there are the, you have to do at least these things to make your book functional. Right. Um, if you wanted to get into warehousing and distributing as a self publisher, a lot of that's how it started. You warehouse in your garage and you distributed by hand out of the trunk of your car. Yup. You know, more power to you if you were good at it. Uh, I, I, I can't even imagine that Amanda's is a magical thing. I mean that's pretty much why self publishing has taken off the way it has. Totally. But for Speaker 2:       38:36   traditional publishing, there's a reason that some authors is a very good reason why some authors just choose not to be involved in that side of any of the process. And I can certainly understand why because as you heard in this episode, it's, it's not shrouded in mystery, but it's fine grain nitty gritty stuff. Yeah. So anyway, um, so we're going to stop before we try and explain it one more time. Why we didn't tell you everything there is, this is like my head hurts after trying to do, and it's not quite like trying to talk to a quantum physicist and get an easy answer, but it's a little bit like trying to talk to the quantum physicist. So, um, anyway, so on that note, uh, thanks for sticking bearing with me through this one because, um, I realized that was a little disjointed. I'll try to, Oh, send us your questions if you have any and we can try and repair the damage done. Speaker 2:       39:30   But hopefully I don't think, I think that was good. I think, you know, we're, we're talking about it before it's been trimmed. That's true. And once it's trimmed, I know you, it's going to be nice and clean and straight forward. So, um, so, you know, but if you have questions you can find us online. Ask the WMB cast on Twitter and Instagram. You can find us@wmbcast.com and you can subscribe to us through most of the podcast aggregators. I'm trying to find a few more of them to get us out there even wider. And um, you know, if you want to leave us a rating or a video, we would love it either Apple podcasts or Apple iTunes. Um, they are the same bank of reviews. So you can go in there and just, just gush a little. We wouldn't mind. Yeah, no, not at all. Um, I read your review in a future episode. Speaker 2:       40:10   Yeah. And Hey, you know, if there's something you want to hear about and you put it in a review, you've called us out, we have to answer it. Um, and then if you are finding this information super helpful and you have some spare change to throw our way, we do have a Patrion, um, page@patrion.com forward slash WMB cast. We have some patrons now and it's fantastic and we love it. And, uh, we really appreciate your support. So thank you for listening and thank you for your support. And we will talk to you in the next episode.  

"I really want theater to reach in and grab my heart and squeeze. I want to feel something when I'm sitting there." We love to interview playwrights! We love to hear how they discovered playwriting and how they found themselves on this journey into the world of playwriting. We had the immense pleasure to talk to Marisela Treviño Orta and we know you will enjoy this episode, listeners. Marisela is an accidental playwright. She got her MFA in poetry from the University of San Francisco. Graduate of Iowa playwrights workshop, core writer at the playwrights center, and is currently working on a commission for Audible! Her play "Somewhere", which was commissioned by Temple University, will open Feb 1st. GLISTENS: Sam's Glisten - Joy Harjo "Book of poems" Sarah's Glisten - InsideOut Writers Marisela's Glisten - sushi at Hamasaku in LA ABOUT MARISELA TREVIÑO ORTA Marisela Treviño Orta is an accidental playwright. Originally from Lockhart, Texas, she found her way to the genre while completing an MFA in Writing at the University of San Francisco (USF) where she studied poetry exclusively. While a student at USF, Marisela became the Resident Poet of El Teatro Jornalero!, a social justice theatre company comprised of Latinx immigrants. Marisela's first play BRAIDED SORROW (2008 Su Teatro world premiere) won the 2006 Chicano/Latino Literary Prize in Drama and the 2009 Pen Center USA Literary Award in Drama. Her other plays include: AMERICAN TRIAGE (2012 Repertorio Español Nuestras Voces Finalist); GHOST LIMB (2017 Brava Theatre world premiere); HEART SHAPED NEBULA (2015 Shotgun Players world premiere); SHOE (2019 Kendeda Finalist); RETURN TO SENDER (2019 Nashville Children's Theatre world premiere); and WOMAN ON FIRE (2016 Camino Real Productions world premiere). In 2011, she began writing her cycle of grim Latinx fairy tales—fairy tales for adults inspired by Latinx mythology and folklore which include: THE RIVER BRIDE (2013 National Latino Playwriting Award Co-Winner, 2016 Oregon Shakespeare Festival world premiere); WOLF AT THE DOOR (2016 Kilroys List, 2018/2019 National New Play Network Rolling World Premiere); and ALCIRA. Marisela is an alum of the Iowa Playwrights Workshop, the Playwrights Foundation's Resident Playwright Initiative, a founding member of the Bay Area Latino Theatre Artists Network, and a member of the Latinx Theatre Commons' national Steering Committee. Last year she was selected as a Core Writer at The Playwrights' Center in Minneapolis. Marisela is also a member of the Goodman Theatre's 2018/2019 Playwrights Unit. Currently, Marisela is working on a new cycle of worst-case scenario plays—sci-fi thriller plays which include WMB (pronounced “womb”) and NIGHTFALL which she has been commissioned by Audible to adapt for their platform. She is also adapting Charles Dickens' Little Dorrit into a five-hour epic piece of theatre. Make sure to follow Marisela to learn more about her work and stay updated: twitter.com/mariselatorta _____________________________________________ Please support Beckett's Babies by reviewing, sharing an episode to your friends, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter: @beckettsbabies And as always, we would love to hear from you! Send us your questions or thoughts on playwriting and we might discuss it in our next episode. Email: contact@beckettsbabies.com For more info, visit our website: www.beckettsbabies.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/beckettsbabies/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/beckettsbabies/support

"I really want theater to reach in and grab my heart and squeeze. I want to feel something when I’m sitting there." We love to interview playwrights! We love to hear how they discovered playwriting and how they found themselves on this journey into the world of playwriting. We had the immense pleasure to talk to Marisela Treviño Orta and we know you will enjoy this episode, listeners. Marisela is an accidental playwright. She got her MFA in poetry from the University of San Francisco. Graduate of Iowa playwrights workshop, core writer at the playwrights center, and is currently working on a commission for Audible! Her play "Somewhere", which was commissioned by Temple University, will open Feb 1st. GLISTENS: Sam's Glisten - Joy Harjo "Book of poems" Sarah's Glisten - InsideOut Writers Marisela's Glisten - sushi at Hamasaku in LA ABOUT MARISELA TREVIÑO ORTA Marisela Treviño Orta is an accidental playwright. Originally from Lockhart, Texas, she found her way to the genre while completing an MFA in Writing at the University of San Francisco (USF) where she studied poetry exclusively. While a student at USF, Marisela became the Resident Poet of El Teatro Jornalero!, a social justice theatre company comprised of Latinx immigrants. Marisela’s first play BRAIDED SORROW (2008 Su Teatro world premiere) won the 2006 Chicano/Latino Literary Prize in Drama and the 2009 Pen Center USA Literary Award in Drama. Her other plays include: AMERICAN TRIAGE (2012 Repertorio Español Nuestras Voces Finalist); GHOST LIMB (2017 Brava Theatre world premiere); HEART SHAPED NEBULA (2015 Shotgun Players world premiere); SHOE (2019 Kendeda Finalist); RETURN TO SENDER (2019 Nashville Children’s Theatre world premiere); and WOMAN ON FIRE (2016 Camino Real Productions world premiere). In 2011, she began writing her cycle of grim Latinx fairy tales—fairy tales for adults inspired by Latinx mythology and folklore which include: THE RIVER BRIDE (2013 National Latino Playwriting Award Co-Winner, 2016 Oregon Shakespeare Festival world premiere); WOLF AT THE DOOR (2016 Kilroys List, 2018/2019 National New Play Network Rolling World Premiere); and ALCIRA. Marisela is an alum of the Iowa Playwrights Workshop, the Playwrights Foundation’s Resident Playwright Initiative, a founding member of the Bay Area Latino Theatre Artists Network, and a member of the Latinx Theatre Commons’ national Steering Committee. Last year she was selected as a Core Writer at The Playwrights’ Center in Minneapolis. Marisela is also a member of the Goodman Theatre's 2018/2019 Playwrights Unit. Currently, Marisela is working on a new cycle of worst-case scenario plays—sci-fi thriller plays which include WMB (pronounced “womb”) and NIGHTFALL which she has been commissioned by Audible to adapt for their platform. She is also adapting Charles Dickens’ Little Dorrit into a five-hour epic piece of theatre. Make sure to follow Marisela to learn more about her work and stay updated: https://twitter.com/mariselatorta _____________________________________________ Please support Beckett's Babies by reviewing, sharing an episode to your friends, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter: @beckettsbabies And as always, we would love to hear from you! Send us your questions or thoughts on playwriting and we might discuss it in our next episode. Email: contact@beckettsbabies.com For more info, visit our website: www.beckettsbabies.com

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! November is (somehow) just around the corner and for a lot of people in the writing community it’s that magical time of year: NaNoWriMo!  In this episode, we talk about all aspects of this highly anticipated month.  What is NaNoWriMo?  How and when did it start?  What do you have to do to participate and what should you have when you are finished?  Rekka and Kaelyn take a deep dive into what to expect during NaNoWriMo, plus offer some important Thanksgiving-while-writing tips. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us if you are planning to participate in NaNoWriMo so we can cheer you on! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Kaelyn: 00:03   Hey everyone, welcome back. Another episode of the, we make books podcast to show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press. Rekka: 00:12   And I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn: 00:21   And today is a learning episode for me. We're talking about NaNoWriMo today or national novel writing month. And this is a little embarrassing for me to admit, but I did not actually know a whole lot about this. I knew it was a thing that happened. I knew it was a massive community event. There's, you know, November my Twitter feed is just covered in hashtag NaNoWriMo and I knew what the, the goal was. I know what was kind of going on here, but outside of that, I really did not know too much about the ins and outs. So, um, Rekka has some expertise in this - Rekka: 00:51   I am a municipal liaison for my NaNoWriMo region, um, which if you don't even know what that means, we'll go into a little bit in episode. And, uh, so yeah, I, I, you know, I pitched to Kaelyn like, Hey, last episode of October, people are going to be looking forward to NaNoWriMo, but there are also people who have no idea what it is and they're seeing everyone in a flurry talking about it right now. Kaelyn: 01:17   And then I raised my hand and said, yes, I'm one of those people. Rekka: 01:19   Yes, exactly. So yeah, we, um, we decided, we covered this, uh, this will be like an evergreen episode unless something major changes with the NaNoWriMo program. But, um, yeah, it happened. Kaelyn: 01:31   You never know. Rekka: 01:31   It could happen. So this will probably be our one NaNoWriMo episode, um, unless we decide to come back in maybe in, uh, December of another year and saying, okay, now what do you do with your NaNoWriMo project? We'll talk about that more in this episode, but yeah, this is a definition, uh, pros and cons. Uh, then what do you do kind of conversation. And, um, hopefully if you are excited about NaNoWriMo, you will just enjoy hearing somebody else talking about it. And if you don't even know what NaNoWriMo is, then I'm, hopefully you'll learn. And maybe, you know, by planning your own project. Kaelyn: 02:06   So by the end of the episode, you'll know, so, um, everyone take a listen, uh, hope you as always, hopefully educational and informative. Rekka: 02:12   Don't tell them it's educational, thy'll stop listening. Kaelyn: 02:17   That's a good point. Yeah. No, no, nothing, nothing of value in terms of - Rekka: 02:21   Fun and games, frivolity and skullduggery throughout the entire episode. Kaelyn: 02:26   Exactly. So I'm take a listen. We, uh, hope you enjoy Speaker 3:       02:39   [inaudible] Kaelyn: 02:50   NaNoWriMo, NaNoWriMo. [inaudible] so we're talking about, yeah. Rekka: 02:55   Do you want to start? Yeah, give us the whole background. Kaelyn: 03:00   Oh, I no, because I'm, I, uh, don't know too much about this. I know kind of the, the basics of it. I know what the goal is. I know, you know, it's a big sort of writing community event. Um, but even just from some of the things you've been telling me now, I had no idea it was so extensively organized. Rekka: 03:19   It's a whole thing. Kaelyn: 03:19   Um, there's this whole underground going on and - Rekka: 03:23   It's not that underground. Kaelyn: 03:24   No, it's not. It's not. And it's funny because you know, obviously like this time of year, Twitter blows up with all of this stuff and like I, you know, very aware that it's happening. I've just never really looked into it that much. I just know that I get the product of it typically. Rekka: 03:42   Okay, well we'll get to that. So NaNoWriMo is short for National Novel Writing Month and unlike national talk like a pirate day, this is not just like, Oh ha ha how cute for a lot of people this is like their big holiday season. Kaelyn: 03:57   Yeah. This is, I didn't like, again, I knew this was a very serious thing that people took very seriously. I did not realize the organization and planning that goes into this. Rekka: 04:08   Right. So to give it a little bit of background, it was begun by a few friends who lived in California and they decided that they would, um, just try writing a novel in a month. That was kind of the, the concept that kicked it all off. And so it started with 21 people in San Francisco Bay area in 1999. And then, um, Kaelyn: 04:37   Oh, so this is the 20th anniversary of this. Rekka: 04:40   Oh yeah, it is, isn't it? Kaelyn: 04:41   How appropriate that this is Episode 20. Rekka: 04:44   Oh. Kaelyn: 04:44   We did that on purpose. Absolutely. Rekka: 04:46   Okay. Did you feel that? I think I just felt like the universe tear a little. Um, so yeah. Yeah, I guess it's, it's the 20th anniversary of the very start of it. Um, it didn't go national until the following year when they put up a website for it. So in 2000 they um, they not only put up a website, but they moved it to November. So the first year was a July. Kaelyn: 05:12   Okay. Rekka: 05:13   So, um, they were in California. They don't even notice the difference between July and November. Kaelyn: 05:17   Well, certainly not in, in San Francisco. Rekka: 05:19   San Francisco. Yeah. So I'm a nice balmy, probably 72 degrees throughout the year and um, they didn't even notice, but they moved it to November because they figured for most people who are, at least in the Northern hemisphere, they will be looking for a way to avoid like gloomy, rainy, shorter days and stuff like that. Kaelyn: 05:41   November's a brutal month, November and February. Rekka: 05:42   The funny thing is they, they chose it on a month where typically people have at least a week of travel or holiday planning to deal with. Kaelyn: 05:54   Yeah, I was wondering about that actually. Rekka: 05:58   So I find that, well, one my family doesn't travel for Thanksgiving. Um, so I find that it's not really an interruption for me. If anything, there's usually a couple extra days off work during that week. And so I can take advantage of that. Um, people who have family come into town probably have a harder time of it because their life is disrupted, but for whatever reason, they felt that November the month of gloom amd Turkey would be Turkey for those of us who celebrate Thanksgiving in the U S they've felt it would be the, uh, the proper month to choose. So the second year they had 140 participants. Kaelyn: 06:41   Okay. Rekka: 06:42   So not bad growth from 21. Kaelyn: 06:44   No it's pretty good. Rekka: 06:45   But, um, yeah, by a few years ago they had about half a million people. So it's been growing. And then of course by word of mouth, as everyone gets excited and talks about it, they um, they draw more people in. I think it's probably the best organic marketing campaign that anyone could have. Um, ironically it's a 5013- C nonprofit organization, but they do help, um, kids in schools get interested in writing through their young writers program. Kaelyn: 07:18   Yeah. Rekka: 07:18   The NaNoWriMo itself is free to participate in, they collect donations, so if you donate to them through their website, your avatar on that site has a halo slung over one corner. So in theory, anyone with internet access can participate in the community. I've heard of plenty of people who do NaNoWriMo without ever logging onto the website as well. Kaelyn: 07:41   Yeah. Because it's not, well, and we'll get into this a little bit, but it's something that can just be done entirely independently. You just declare, I am doing NaNoWriMo and then you do NaNoWriMo. Rekka: 07:53   And then you sit down and you figure out how you're going to do it. You figure out how you're going to do your word count. I mean, I know people who handwrite in a notebook, their 50,000 words for NaNoWriMo, which makes my wrist scream in agony at the thought. But for some people still have limber carpal tunnel ligaments then. Kaelyn: 08:09   Well, yeah, because they're writing everything. They're not typing. Yeah. We haven't destroyed all of their - Rekka: 08:16   Well, yeah. And mousing. You can participate through the website, you can choose not to. Um, but one of the advantages that I love about NaNoWriMo and why I think it's so successful is that, you know, so many people online who are participating. So people who are good friends of yours in person may show up and write with you in person at write-ins, uh, at libraries, cafes, you know, wherever people take over to sit and write for a while. And then, um, you know, you might have friends that you've never met but are also participating in NaNoWriMo online that you can, uh, do community challenges through the NaNoWriMo or through Twitter or Facebook, Slack groups, discord, you know, whatever. And then, um, you have people that you meet by doing NaNoWriMo. So it's community reinforcing, but also community building. And I think that's the power of NaNoWriMo is one, just the general excitement that you are not alone in attempting this feat. Rekka: 09:20   And the support I think is probably incredibly important. The other half is that it's community building as well. So you meet people who have similar passions to you. You know, writing, you meet other people who write in your genre. You might even meet people who beta read your novel for you when, when your draft is done and help you refine it and move it toward completion. So it's a great resource to motivate yourself, but it also can be a great resource for finishing your manuscript once your draft is done. So NaNoWriMo started, as I said, with one month that moved to November. And then what about the rest of the year? Or for people in other hemispheres who, um, you know, their dreary month is, you know, July or April, you know, so there is also camp NaNoWriMo, which of course belies the fact that it's four people in another year by making it sound like a summer event. Rekka: 10:18   But, um, essentially, you know, this is a very, um, Northern hemisphere Western hemisphere centric event and it probably always will be. Um, it's been better about recognizing that people are all over the world. They've got regions all over the world, but it's, it's definitely still got a us centric mindset. And um, so in April when you used to have script frenzy, you know, have the first Camp NaNoWriMo, so this is 30 days, um, in which you set your own goal. It's, it's a much more casual NaNoWriMo project. In theory, in November you were writing at least 50,000 words, but for camp NaNoWriMo, you can go as low as 10,000. Kaelyn: 11:00   Okay. Rekka: 11:00   So if you just wanted to write some poetry or short stories and you wanted to do it at a slower pace, you could say, I'm going to write a, you know, a 3,500 word short story every week for April. Kaelyn: 11:15   That's still a pretty steep undertaking. Rekka: 11:16   That's still a pretty decent undertaking, um, and that would land you with something. I'm doing the math in my head poorly, like 17,000 words or something like that. At the end of the month. Kaelyn: 11:26   14. Rekka: 11:26   Yeah. See I told you before that I went to art school and I'm a writer so that I can avoid these number things. Kaelyn: 11:32   Yeah. Yeah. Rekka: 11:33   Um, so you a can set your own goal. You go to the website, it's definitely not as active, like there's little cute stuff on the website throughout the month, but it's, the community is a lot quieter on social media where you might have experienced tons of sprints on Twitter and a word Wars, whatever you'd like to call them. Um, and then you know, your friends on Facebook are talking about how they're doing their, um, talking in your discord, chat room server, whatever the term is about the progress they're doing and you're all rooting for each other. Rekka: 12:12   Camp NaNoWriMo in April for 30 days and in July for 31 days is a lot more low key. So you pretty much on your own, I've found you might have a friend or two that are doing it. And I've seen a lot of people release themselves from the deadline pretty early in the month. Kaelyn: 12:30   It's not as organized and community driven from what I've seen as NaNoWriMo. Rekka: 12:37   Yeah. I mean all the functions are there on the website so that you can track it. But, um, I'm very curious to see how this goes because their new website that they just rolled out allows you to track projects throughout the year so you can go in and set a goal. And they started to do this on the last version after, I think last year. But you can start tracking goals throughout the year and you can set them, you can add your word counts to them, you can set deadlines and it will show you, you know, how you're progressing towards your deadline throughout the calendar year. Rekka: 13:09   So I wonder if camp NaNoWriMo is actually going to fade as a result of that or maybe be combined into one other, I mean, this is me just speculating. Kaelyn: 13:17   Yeah. Rekka: 13:18   I mean by keeping, you know, keep your eyes peeled because I think there will probably be some changes to the, the events throughout the year. But as of this moment, you have three NaNoWriMo events, two camps and one big national. You know, um, everyone has a project that they've been keeping in their back pocket for this. Some people start to plan and outline ahead of it so that they're ready to go. People are telling their friends and family, they do not exist in November, um, that they will, uh, you know, come downstairs for the Turkey dinner at 2:00 PM on, on Thanksgiving day and then they will go back to upstairs to the room. Kaelyn: 13:55   I retreat to my cave or my attic. Rekka: 13:57   And so, um, so yeah, so November really if you want to participate and feel the full blast of the furnace, that is the NaNoWriMo experience. Um, I definitely recommend participating in November and find a local writing group because, uh, showing up in person really does make a difference for your productivity. I used to not go to the events because like I said, I'd have to drive an hour or more to get to the event. The event was two or three hours, I think it was two. And then, um, I would drive an hour or more to get home and I was like, well, in those six hours I could be writing more words, except I wouldn't because life would get in the way. So, um, so it really does help to just go and it's also, there is nothing that compares with the feeling of writing in a room where everyone is writing and, um, there's just like this buzz of everybody focused on the same task, that really is incredible. Rekka: 14:47   Um, I'm sure it's the, the theory behind the open working space, a bullpen environment. Kaelyn: 14:55   Oh not that. Rekka: 14:55   But let's, let's not, don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging that. But um, if everyone is silently writing, then yes, maybe that works. Um, one thing I will mention is that for people who have to write in nontraditional ways for health reasons or, or other productivity reasons, um, it's not going to be a friendly environment. If you are a dictation writer, you know, and it's not going to be a friendly environment. Um, if you need, you know, audio output from your computer as you work, um, or you know, that sort of thing. Um, hopefully all your writings, I know I always try to make them as accessible as possible. Um, I've stopped going to cafes where you had to go up a little staircase to a really cute little loft because it means that people who have, you know, um, crutches or wheelchairs can't attend and stuff. So, um, hopefully all the municipal liaisons around your area take the same efforts to make sure that everyone can come. Kaelyn: 15:51   What typically is the goal at the end of NaNoWriMo when you have done all of this, what quote unquote should you walk away with? Rekka: 16:00   Uh, so the thought is that you can write a book in a month. I mean, a novel in a month. That's national novel writing, not national, write a bunch month. It's national novel writing month. So the goal is to complete a novel in a month, start to finish. In theory, you would not have a draft that you've already begun. Um, and in theory you would write the end on November 30th. Kaelyn: 16:27   Okay. Rekka: 16:28   The metric they use is word count. So the goal of the month to quote unquote, when NaNoWriMo, um, you would have 50,000 words at the end of the month, the goal of 50,000 words is attainable, if you write 1,667 words per day. Kaelyn: 16:50   Okay. Rekka: 16:50   So that will get you to 50,000 in 30 days. So there is a pace that's set by that and there are bar charts and um, estimators that will tell you like at this pace you'll finish on kind of thing. Kaelyn: 17:08   Yeah. Rekka: 17:09   You can sort of see how you're doing, see if you're falling behind, all that kind of stuff. And the number that they came up with is based on literary, uh, great American literary novels, Grapes of Wrath, and Of Mice and Men, so on and so forth. Um, so if you've ever been handed one of those books in a classroom or picked it up in the library and read it for summer reading, because that's typically where all these novels exist in your life, is in some sort of educational format. Um, you know that these are not the same size as the trade paperbacks you pick up at the store. Kaelyn: 17:44   Yes. Rekka: 17:45   And I think that's an important thing to note is that if you follow the letter of the, you know, goal for NaNoWriMo, you are probably not going to end up with what most people would consider a full size book. Kaelyn: 17:59   You are going to end up 10,000 words short of what my publishing company accepts for novels. Rekka: 18:06   For genre fiction. Kaelyn: 18:08   Yes. So yeah, so 50,000 words is 10,000 words shy of the 60,000 minimum. That a lot, not just Parvus of us but a lot of publishing - Rekka: 18:16   That's pretty standard. Rekka: 18:17   Um, yeah, it's about 200 pages provided that the story is done. When you have your 50,000 words, you are going to have to trunk it or expand it if you want to submit it. Kaelyn: 18:31   With something like NaNoWriMo, um, one of the things I would imagine can be very stressful for people participating in it is, is a lot of pressure and it's, some people don't write well under a deadline, right? Rekka: 18:47   Some people Excel at it. And I think those are the people who tend to love NaNoWriMo and love what it can do for their productivity. Kaelyn: 18:54   Some people, I would imagine this would be an incredibly stressful. Rekka: 18:58   Oh yeah. Kaelyn: 18:58   Thing for them that is not necessarily going to produce the best possible version of what they want to write. Rekka: 19:05   1,667 words a day takes discipline, but it also takes rearranging your schedule. Kaelyn: 19:12   Yes. Rekka: 19:12   For some people, um, it's not just, Oh, I will sit down and write those words with this copious amount of free time I have. Kaelyn: 19:19   There's unseen hours that go into this, of thinking about what you're going to write. A lot of people don't just sit down and magically have these words pour out of them. Rekka: 19:28   So if you don't have the time in your life to think about what you're going to write in your next writing session, chances are part of your writing session is going to be given over to switching from your, like Bruce Wayne mode into your Batman mode. Kaelyn: 19:40   Mmmhmm. Rekka: 19:41   And so that's not necessarily going to be something that you can maintain after November. So that's another criticism I've heard is like, people wear themselves out to get these 50,000 words and then that's it. And they write once a year for 30 days in extreme dash and then they don't write for the rest of the year, which is not a fantastic way to strengthen your skills as a writer. Like writing every day is not something that everyone can do 100%. It's exhausting and just like working out the rest of the process. Kaelyn: 20:21   Your time, your schedule. Rekka: 20:21   You need to take a break so you can come back fresh and um, and write, well if you write every day, every day, every day, and that's all your spare time, then you become a husk of human being in a way. And you know, you're writing probably suffers because you don't have any inspiration in your life. You just have output and you need time for input as well. Kaelyn: 20:41   Right. Rekka: 20:43   So writing under extreme deadline means that you don't have time to take that rest between, um, you know, writing sessions if you need to. Uh, it does mean that you have an expectation of finishing something and maybe that kind of drains the joy out of just being present in the moment of the words you're writing. Now, if you are focused on your word count and say you start off great, like day one, day two, maybe you hit your quotas, no problem. Maybe you're ahead of them. And then day three, you know, you have dinner with family so you're not even home when you would normally be writing. And then day four you're like, okay, well I've just got to make up double quota and I, it wasn't so bad this first two days, so I'll just make up. Rekka: 21:28   And then day four, something else happens. And then day five, maybe it's a Monday and you're back at work and you were hoping that you might, might be able to hit your regular quota only now you've got like a couple of days on top of that so you can start to really pile up and add to the anxiety of things. Honestly, the best time I ever had writing for NaNoWriMo was, um, when I was 100% ahead of my quota every day. And it's just not a situation that happens for 100% of the people and there's no way to control it, really. The reason that I was ahead, that particular NaNoWriMo was because I was the, became that year the municipal liaison for my NaNoWriMo region because now that it's so big, they break it up into regions and then they have local people who lead in person write-ins wrangle the people in that area, encourage them, send out messages to them to, you know, inspire them, remind them of events and all this. Rekka: 22:27   So when I was municipal liaison for the first year, it was also the first year that I attended every single writing and I was encouraging people online and I really thought that your was going to actually make it harder for me to hit my goals because I thought that I'm writing the newsletters to the people and I'm driving to the write ins was going to take away from the time I would otherwise be writing. But instead what it did was like, give me a motivated, like, like super powered focus. And so when I got there, I was leading writing sprints, which are timed sessions, kind of like Pomodoro method except you know, it can be a little bit of friendly competition. You just write, you know, fingers ablaze or whatever keyboard, whatever your method of writing is. Um, you just do that for whatever the time are set for you. Rekka: 23:24   Usually 20 to 30 minutes seems to be pretty comfortable for people. And then like, you know, when you get to the end of your right and sometimes you have like spare change minutes, so you'd do like five minutes or 15 minutes or whatever you can fit in. And then at the end everybody calls out, you know, how many words they wrote. And um, you know, that Pomodoro technique for some people works really, really well. And then you also get built in breaks to like stretch your fingers, get up as opposed to staring at the keyboard and saying, I'm writing for three hours, which is a lot. Kaelyn: 23:55   It is, well doing anything for three hours, is uh. Rekka: 23:58   Yeah, it's tough. I mean there's a reason that, you know, school classes in high school were like, what, 40 minutes for a class because that was about all you, the teacher was going to get out of you before you needed to get up and walk around to your next class, go to lockers. Kaelyn: 24:11   Actually in high school we had block scheduling. So our classes were an hour and 40 minutes each and it was brutal. So yeah, I mean even doing something for like two hours nonstop without a break that can, that's very mentally fatiguing. Rekka: 24:27   Yes, yes. So that's the, the idea is that the um, you know, the write-ins give you not just the community but also like some structure and it really worked for me and I live in a very strange, narrow is North, South, you know, column of a region where it's, you can't just drive directly across one corner to the other because of Connecticut roads. You know, you have to take a highway in the wrong direction for a while and, and make the next one and, and, and make a 90 degree turn. And I really thought that all this commuting was going to cut into my writing time. But what I found was that having set scheduled writing time was really, really helpful and kept me motivated. And then when I did have 10 or 20 minutes throughout the rest of the day, even if I wasn't at a write in, I was already in the mode of writing for this because I was thinking about it daily as opposed to just on the weekends. Rekka: 25:20   So that's another warning is don't save all your quota and just do it on the weekends because that's a lot of words to make up for. That's a lot of pressure and it's a lot of pressure. And then if your weekend goes a little bit awry, like mine always do, you know- Kaelyn: 25:31   The candle thing goes wonky, that'll do ya. Rekka: 25:33   You end up out running errands for three hours in the middle of the day when you were supposed to be writing. So, um, that's tough. But for some people it's um, also tough to just get that time away from their family. Kaelyn: 25:47   How polished is what you're writing during this going to be, because my, I'm kind of looking at this thinking like, alright, you've written 50,000 words. These are probably not the best 50,000 words you're ever going to write. They're going to probably need some revisions, some work, some addition. Rekka: 26:05   That's kind of where I think a lot of folks split on their opinion of NaNoWriMo. Some folks love NaNoWriMo because it helps them get the words on the page. Some folks hate, loath, detestsNaNoWriMo because of the words that end up on the page and the quality thereof. Kaelyn: 26:30   Well, yeah, and that probably has a lot to do with just how you work. Is it a matter of, it doesn't have to be pretty, I just need to get it done Rekka: 26:38   Right. Kaelyn: 26:38   Because this is how I'm going to make myself get it done. New Speaker:  26:41   Yes. So when NaNoWriMo on the word count, because the idea is to prove to you that you can write that many words if you sit down everyday and do it, um, or if you budget out how you're going to do it through the month. Um, if you hit 1,667 words per day and you get to the 50,000, at the end of the month, the quality is entirely dependent on you. It's probably safe to say that the average NaNoWriMo 50,000 word draft is uh, one probably not done. You know, that person probably didn't get to the end of the story. Um, some of this is pacing yourself in terms of like how much to write proceed and how much to write per chapter. A lot of people do a discovery writing, so they just kind of sit down and they might have a character in mind or general plot arc, but they don't have a, a, an outline or a writing plan. Kaelyn: 27:42   So in this case then what their goal is is I have a character, I have an idea of a story. Let me see where this goes. I'm going to sit down and write about 1700 words a day and see how this. Rekka: 27:56   See how this ends up, right. Maybe freewriting is a, is a good term. I mean, most creative drafting is probably free writing once you get into it. It's just a matter of like, do you have a goal in mind to like, am I writing a scene where the character has to get to the bus stop? Because if they don't make this bus, they're not going to see their mother before she passes. Sorry everyone, that was pretty downer, but you know those kinds of tense moments or is this like my character works at a coffee shop and so I'm going to describe her day and you know, and all of those things are valid for your first draft. I suspect that the reason that those people who do not care for NaNoWriMo, I don't even know what to suspect. I can confirm that the reason that people don't like NaNoWriMo when they feel that way and when they feel strongly about it is because in December there are half a million people who have some form of a first draft of something that they now want to share. Kaelyn: 29:02   Yep. Rekka: 29:03   Some of these people choose to go ahead and self publish it right there. Okay, I do not recommend this. Kaelyn: 29:09   No. I would say go back and listen to all of our submissions, September episodes where we talk about is this ready to show to other people? Rekka: 29:18   Not only do people sometimes self-publish these books Kaelyn: 29:22   So wait, real quick, people actually sit down, write the 50,000 words through this, then take that in its exact form. Rekka: 29:31   Yup. Kaelyn: 29:32   And self-publish it. Rekka: 29:35   Yup. I think people are starting to get a little bit better about that now. Um, but it was definitely, and a NaNoWriMo has some sponsors and some of them are the companies through which you can self publish. I think create space before Amazon eight create space. Um, used to have a link on the winner's page, like com upload your draft, which is fine if you want to see it and hold it and read it and go over it again. But please don't list it for sale at this point. Kaelyn: 30:03   Well, who, um who is participating in NaNoWriMo? Because I kind of always understood it to be people very active in writing communities and um, I would think people who are very active in writing communities would know that this first thing that you've done is not ready to be seen by anyone. Rekka: 30:26   Right. So that is part of it. Um, yeah, we have, we have writers who are writers the rest of the year who participate in NaNoWriMo just because they know all their friends are working on it and you hear a lot, even through the rest of the year, like, Oh, I'm saving that for November, you know, like that's a, that's a novel I want to start in November, so I want to finish this other stuff first. Kaelyn: 30:49   Yeah. Rekka: 30:50   So that definitely is true. There are definitely people who are professionally or amateur and I don't mean amateur in the sense of not very good, but I mean amateur in the sense of does it for the love of it. Kaelyn: 31:01   Yeah. The actual literal definition of amateur. Rekka: 31:05   There are people who know what it is to write a book and they know what a book looks like when it's ready to be seen by other people. And they know about the process of editing and revising. There are also people who hear about NaNoWriMo on Facebook or whatever and they think, Oh, that's cute. I've always wanted to write a book. And it's, I think, and I do not mean to disparage any group of people, Kaelyn: 31:28   No, of course not. Rekka: 31:28   But I think it's that group of the, I've always wanted to write a book, people, um - Kaelyn: 31:34   Who are kind of coming into this without exposure to, well, pretty much anything that this podcast is about. The writing and publishing. Yeah. Rekka: 31:42   Right. So they may be enthusiastic readers, um, of any genre. Um, people participate in NaNoWriMo for any genre as well. Um, some people write poetry, some people write blog posts for their website and just use the word count, you know, to measure how they're doing. Um, if you wanna call that a work of, you know, collected articles, you can, you know, NaNoWriMo has gotten a little bit fuzzy. And I don't mean this in a negative way, but they have, they really started originally where you're writing a novel and it's fiction and it may or may not have, You know, speculative elements or fantasy, but generally it is a plot that you come up with, with characters that you come up with. Now there are people who write biographies and, and whatever. And the, the genres that you could choose from the dropdown menu on their website when you're setting up your project to track, um, has gotten a lot longer than it needs to be. Rekka: 32:47   It used to be like five or six things. Um, now, you know, screenplay is one of them where, you know, that's a very different kind of writing experience from writing a novel. And also it used to be separated out into its own event called script frenzy, which they no longer have. They've just absorbed scripts and other comic books and, and that sort of thing into their main events. Um, and they hold three a year. Kaelyn: 33:12   Okay. Rekka: 33:13   Um, so not only are there people who are self publishing these books, um, just releasing them into the wild and sticking - Kaelyn: 33:21   Go books! Be free! Rekka: 33:23   But no, not free. People are charging for their NaNoWriMo draft one. So I think that contributes to the very negative opinions some people have of the um, the community event because they see a plethora of unedited, unrevised unproofed un-beta, you know, Kaelyn: 33:46   Checked, anything. Rekka: 33:46   Um, just, it doesn't necessarily even have a illustration on the cover. It might just have the title, the title. Um, if you've ever seen like the, um, covers where there's like a couple of blocks of, of colors and then the, uh, um, the, the title across it in times new Roman or whatever. Um, so there are, there are usually a flood of those and people who work very hard to try and lift the, the, uh, reputation of self-publishing by putting in the effort are often very frustrated by this wave public - Kaelyn: 34:26   Well that's understandable, you know you never want to see, you know especially something that's a community that's trying to establish and build its reputation more. And then you get this, a flurry of people coming in and going, See I did the same thing you did and you're going, no, you didn't. Rekka: 34:39   Yeah. And I think maybe that's one of the criticisms or the lead, the root of the criticism is somebody who participates in NaNoWriMo throws mud against a wall in terms of the words that they put on the page. They hit the quota and then they say, I've written a book too. Kaelyn: 34:57   Yeah. Rekka: 34:57   When you know that's the tip of the iceberg. That's the, that's the outside impression of what it takes to write a book. It's the revisions and the editing and you know, going through the process of producing the book that is the unseen 90% of the iceberg. And you know - Kaelyn: 35:18   You know, because it's, you know, and as you said, not to disparage anyone in what they're doing, but someone who does NaNoWriMo writes the 50,000 words and says, okay, I'm done, is not doing the same thing as someone who says, okay, I've done NaNoWriMo. I've written a 50,000 words. I'm just getting started. Rekka: 35:34   Yeah. And so check that off. That's step one. Kaelyn: 35:38   Yeah. Rekka: 35:39   I've got almost a full manuscript that I will then reread on my own, try to improve as best I can, involve some beta readers at the very least a really clean it up and maybe query to an agent, start the, the entire process that is years in the making, not 30 days. So, um, you know, to that point, I think NaNoWriMo caught on a national novel writing month. The organization caught on that this was a negative aspect in a lot of people's minds about the event. So almost immediately after you finished NaNoWriMo, you are invited to participate in what they call the Now What Months. Kaelyn: 36:24   Great. Rekka: 36:24   And no, but it's a good thing. Kaelyn: 36:26   It's a very good thing. Rekka: 36:27   And there are plenty of editors and writers out there who have courses and guides for editing what you've written in your NaNoWriMo month and they're out there. They're free on people's blogs. Some people have, um, paid content and webinars and all this kind of stuff. Like people realize that there's a need for, for guidance of a new writer and what to do with these words that they've written. How to know if they're good, how to know if they can be salvaged or if they need to be tossed and just, you know, considered acute experiment or something like that. Um, so the now what months are they begin advertising them in December, but they don't really kick off until the new year, which is a good thing because it gives people to take the space to rest from the, um, madcap dash that they just participated in. Kaelyn: 37:20   Well and also, December in a chaotic month for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. Rekka: 37:24   And your family is already mad at you for skipping out on Thanksgiving. Kaelyn: 37:26   You already went and sat and wrote in the middle of Thanksgiving. Rekka: 37:29   So, or you know, ignored your, your aunt and uncle who you only see this time of year to write this thing. So December, December is your month off, which is a good thing, I think in the process of writing a book. It's good to step away from it after you've finished the draft so you can come back to it with fresh eyes and then begin the process of editing and revising it. But that's not NaNoWriMo itself. It's just what you should do with your book when you're done with NaNoWriMo, whether you realize it or not. So if you create this drivel of a draft and it's 50,000 words that you should probably set on fire, why, why do people do NaNoWriMo is the question that usually comes up next like, okay, so you don't want to publish what you did. Why do it? Kaelyn: 38:15   Well, I mean I would just, you know, from my having never participated in this side of things, think of that it is getting you to sit down and just do the thing. Rekka: 38:28   And I think that's the intent is just to prove to people that you can write a thing. Kaelyn: 38:32   It's to prove to yourself even. Rekka: 38:33   Yes. I'm sorry. Like for people use to prove to themselves that they can write a thing. Kaelyn: 38:38   Um, there is, you know, we, we talked about earlier, there is this mentality of like if everyone is doing it, it's a motivating factor. It helps you kind of stay on track, stay involved, feel like you're not drifting alone out there doing this. And it's um, it's a big community building event as well. Rekka: 39:04   Yeah. As we listed like you can meet people, you can hang out with people you don't normally get to see, at least not this much and you can um, just participate in this. Um, you know that same thing I was talking about earlier with everyone focusing in one room, everyone focusing on the internet is also pretty thrilling. Kaelyn: 39:22   But you even, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head earlier. You called it like if this is like a holiday, people plan for this, they say like, I have a project that I'm saving for November and I think having a specific time where I'm going to do this at this time, one gives you a deadline to prepare for. Rekka: 39:42   Right. Kaelyn: 39:42   And I don't mean the deadline at the end of the month, I mean the deadline or the beginning of the month where it's like, okay, I kind of need to have this stuff figured out before I dive into this. I need to have plans setups so that I can dive into this. I need to have a schedule in place. And I think even just having that motivating factor is very important for getting started. Rekka: 40:06   You know, I talk about being a municipal liason on and having write-ins throughout the month, but we start earlier than that. Um, we have a, it, it hasn't even happened yet. So, um, you know, if you're listening to this on the 22nd, you're going, Oh, I've never heard of this, or I have heard of this, but I've never dared to enter. But I think this year's, I really wish I could, but it's October 22nd. It's too late. I've got to wait until next year. Kaelyn: 40:28   It's not too late. Rekka: 40:29   It's absolutely not too late. Um, if you don't mind a bit of discovery writing in your drafting process, you can just start on November 1st with, uh, you know, what if question and let everything unfold from there. Um, if you like an outline, it's still not too late as long as you can set aside like a day or two and maybe not even consecutively. Um, that's just my recommendation to write an outline, a quick outline. It doesn't have to be a fully fledged, you know, Rekka-style outline, which is what 500 words. Kaelyn: 41:05   Those are notorious. Rekka: 41:06   Um, so the, um, you know, you, if you can set aside a day to come up with your story plot and then set aside a day, a few days later to revisit it and see how it sounds, if you have any more ideas cause you've been thinking about it for a couple of days. So, um, what we do in my writing, uh, community, my local writing community is, uh, this one hour plot workshop and we're holding it on the 27th. So, you know, the 22nd is not too late to start this. Kaelyn: 41:35   No, definitely not. Rekka: 41:38   Yeah. There's, there's really no time that it's too late to start writing. Even if you come in halfway through a NaNoWriMo event, um, you may not hit the word count without, you know, breaking your brain over it. But, um, you know, creating this habit or participating is never a bad idea. No. But yeah, so we create this, um, or we have this one hour, a plot workshop, which is actually like two or three hours for the setup and chatting about it and answering questions and doing things, following, you know, a person who's leading you through this. But it is based on a book called The Busy Writer's one hour plot that's by Marge McAllister, which is an ebook that you can still find on Amazon. Um, and you know, you just go through and you, you start with the character, you start with one or however many you have and it just basically asks you like, okay, what do they want, what are their obstacles? Rekka: 42:31   Um, and what are three obstacles that they have to go through throughout the plot, you know, assuming a four X structure. And, um, and then at the end of going through that little plot program, you've got a loose, but you've structured, yeah, you've got a structure of a story that you can start writing. So, you know, at 25,000 words through your 50,000, you should be at that second obstacle. You know, things that you can sort of use to pace yourself at the very least and discovery, right, all the rest. Um, they welcome plot plotters as well as pantsers NaNoWriMo. Um, and there's even a book by, um, one of the founders of national novel writing month called no plot, no problem. So you can, you can definitely get started with just the barest idea of the story and um, and succeed from there. And you know, assuming that success is a 50,000 word draft and again, that you will take and develop further. Kaelyn: 43:30   So on my end, um, Parvus typically opens for submissions in the beginning of the year and - Rekka: 43:39   Which may be a mistake. Kaelyn: 43:41   Well, you know, the thing is that we, we usually open for submissions twice a year and we always get a lot more in the beginning of the year because everyone has just finished NaNoWriMo and not every one takes off December. Some people go straight into revising and editing. Rekka: 43:59   Um, and we love those people who revise and edit rather than just wait until January to dump it on your doors. Kaelyn: 44:03   Yes, yes. But, so we talked about this. Now what, here's the thing, your 50,000 word, NaNoWriMo writing project, that's not a book that's not ready to get submitted or sent in as we talked about, you know, that's 10,000 words shy of what a lot of places want for a minimum. Rekka: 44:25   A minimum, yeah. Kaelyn: 44:26   Right off the bat. So is this ready to show to anyone? Here's the thing, probably not. Um - Rekka: 44:33   Be very proud of it. Kaelyn: 44:34   Yeah! Rekka: 44:34   Like, don't, don't think that you should be ashamed of what you've just accomplished and - Kaelyn: 44:38   You absolutely should be proud of it. This is a, this is a feat. You have accomplished a feat. Rekka: 44:44   And you've proven to yourself that you can do this. Hopefully you haven't overtaxed yourself to the point where you feel like you need to collapse until next November to write again. Um, because you know, and that's just one of the criticisms that you get and they get some pretty nasty heated conversations about how if you only write once a year, you're not a writer. Um, those are judgments that we're not passing here, but we do suggest that your writing, um, skill will improve if you do it throughout the year as opposed to waiting once per year. So be proud that you have started. Kaelyn: 45:17   Absolutely be proud of what you've done. Rekka: 45:17   If this is your first, you've done projects, you have started, you know, hopefully you love it, hopefully you discovered your passion. If not, that's also an important thing to learn. If you found who are writing a draft kind of sucks. And I don't like doing this and like, you know what, and just you can just keep being a reader and feel no shame about it. You've discovered something about yourself and your, you know, where it's worth investing your time. So, um, you know, that's also a good thing. You can learn a lot about yourself in NaNoWriMo. You can also create a draft that maybe has a spark of something that you feel could develop into a full manuscript that you can send out on query or submission, but you don't do it right away. So, uh, yeah, 50,000 words too short to submit, at least to genre fiction. Kaelyn: 46:03   Most places aren't even - Rekka: 46:04   And almost definitely a need of some revising and attention. So, you know, you probably needed 1,667 words one day. And so you wrote about some coffee shop scene that doesn't even develop character. Kaelyn: 46:17   Rekka, do you need coffee? Rekka: 46:19   I always need coffee. Kaelyn: 46:20   It's a lot of, there's a lot of coffee shops, scenes here. I feel like you're trying to tell me something. It's fine. Rekka: 46:27   I'm trying to tell you that I always need coffee. Kaelyn: 46:29   It's fine. We'll get you coffee. Rekka: 46:30   For the record, I always want more coffee. Kaelyn: 46:33   So, um, well on that note, maybe we should go get you some more coffee. Rekka: 46:38   Okay, fair. But yeah, just to wrap it up, you know, like what is national novel writing month. It is a fully worthwhile community event that takes place online and in local writing groups. And there's probably a, you know, a region near you that you can, you know, go lump yourself onto and participate this year if you haven't before. If you don't have a region near you, you are absolutely invited to my region as like an expat or something or something like that. Kaelyn: 47:05   [laughs] An expat? Rekka: 47:05   Um, you can come find the region, you know, USA, Connecticut, Fairfield County. Okay. And you are totally welcome to come join and right remotely in my, you know, NaNoWriMo. Kaelyn: 47:17   I mean Rekka is doing it this year. Rekka: 47:19   So you know, if you're like, if you're unsure anm hey if it's your first time and you're inspired by this episode, let us know. We'd, we'd love to hear that. Kaelyn: 47:26   Especially if you end up joining a Rekka's writing community. Rekka: 47:29   Yeah. If I have an influx of people, yeah I will, that would love to know which ones are people who came in from the, from the podcast. You can tweet at us too, all through November. Let us know how you're doing if you were listening to this and inspired this. Kaelyn: 47:43   I think uh, Rekka will certainly be tweeting about this and how she's she's doing. Rekka: 47:47   Oh, so I should just touch on this real quick. Um, there is a category of NaNoWriMo participant called the nano rebel. Kaelyn: 47:52   Oh boy. Rekka: 47:53   And that's kind of what I technically am because this year I am trying to work on a manuscript that I already started earlier this year. Kaelyn: 48:02   [gasps] Rekka: 48:03   So I have 30,000 words of a novel, but I am going to write 50,000 more okay. Through the month. Um, heck if I can finish my draft in the month. So here's, here's my, my personal experience that month that I told you that was my first as a municipal liaison and I had no trouble staying ahead of my quota. And I, I didn't even say this, but I finished early. I finished six days early with 85,000 words of a. Kaelyn: 48:32   For those of you listening who haven't figured this out already Rekka's, not a person in the strictest sense of the word. We're pretty sure - Rekka: 48:42   I might just be a floating ball of plasma. Kaelyn: 48:45   We're pretty sure she's not carbon based. Rekka: 48:47   So, um, yeah, so I finished that draft 25 days, you know, 85,000 words, Chi-ching, aren't I awesome. I also rewrote that entire thing like four times and that became Salvage. Kaelyn: 48:59   Yup. Rekka: 48:59   So, um, so your over achievement in NaNoWriMo does not instantly, you know, spell success for your story. You, you, even if you are a writer all year round, and if even if you're a writer all year round, you probably will end up revising this thing a heck of a lot before you want to show it to anybody. So, yes, um Salvage was my 2016 NaNoWriMo project. It was 85,000 words after 25 days. And then it was revised several whopping times that probably took years off my life and came in at 163,000 words when it was done. So neither of those were 50,000 and a as complete stories. And I'd started with outlines and I, um, you know, saved this project for that month kind of thing. Great. Well I think that's really fantastic thing to do. So it's all about the community. Honestly. That's my exact part of NaNoWriMo and my use of it has changed since 2016 I write year round now trying to create new drafts of things. Rekka: 50:10   And very frequently I find that my scheduling just doesn't let me set aside like one specific month as determined by other people. Um, but I'm still the municipal liaison. I still love it. I still love going and working on whatever I'm working on with people doing, you know, 12 write-ins a month instead of the usual two that my, my community does. So it's so much fun. If you don't hinge your future writing career success upon your ability to write a Submittable draft in one month, then it's just hanging out with a bunch of people who love writing just as much as you do. And I definitely recommend it. Yeah. So, um, you know, I, I've learned a lot this episode. Um, hopefully you did too. And if you're, you know, if you're going to take part of, let us know, we'd be very interested to uh, to follow and cheer you on. Kaelyn: 50:57   Yeah. Cheer you on and see what, see what you come up with. Rekka: 51:00   And fold you into my community. Kaelyn: 51:02   Yes. Rekka: 51:02   Yeah. So this has been another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. You can find us on Twitter at WMB cast. We are also on Instagram at WMB cast. You can find our old episodes@wmbcast.com and if you have a buck or two to chip in to help us manage this podcast and uh thank us for our time. If you, especially if you find this, uh, as a very valuable resource, please come to patreon.com/WMB cast. And if you do not have financial support that you can grant us, you can still help us out a lot by sharing episodes that you enjoy with a friend who would also enjoy them. And, um, the easiest thing is just retweet our episodes when you see them pop up on Twitter. Kaelyn: 51:46   And, uh, also leave us a rating and review. Rekka: 51:48   Oh yes, yes. Probably the most important part. Kaelyn: 51:51   That's the most important. Rekka: 51:52   Which it always feels like the biggest ask of people. Like, could you please go say a nice thing. Kaelyn: 51:57   It doesn't have to be long. Rekka: 51:58   Just say what you like, you know, say like Kaelyn's voice. Kaelyn: 52:02   God, I hate my voice. Rekka: 52:03   Say you also like coffee. Say you're going to join a NaNoWriMo with us this year. So yeah. Um, ratings and reviews on iTunes. Help Apple. Find other listeners for our podcast, which is what we want. We want to talk to everybody. Kaelyn: 52:14   Everyone. Rekka: 52:15   Because we're extroverts somehow. Kaelyn: 52:17   Eh. Rekka: 52:18   All right, everybody, we'll talk to you in two weeks.    0

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and the final episode of Agents Week!  For Part Three we got we spoke with three more agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent.  This time we’re chatting with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri who share stories, wisdom, and anecdotes about their paths to signing with a Literary Agent. You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast, we’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019): What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and everyone, let’s be real, we’re two games into it and the Giants’ season is over.  Kaelyn would appreciate your support while she waits for hockey season to start. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast And check out this episode’s interviewees! J. Hackwith   Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/   https://www.amandahackwith.com https://twitter.com/ajhackwith   The Library of the Unwritten https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/   ===     Jennifer Mace   Represented by Kurestin Armada https://twitter.com/kurestinarmada of PS Literary https://www.psliterary.com/   https://www.englishmace.com http://twitter.com/englishmace   https://www.englishmace.com/fiction/ http://betheserpent.podbean.com/   ===   Nino Cipri   Represented by DongWon Song http://www.dongwonsong.com/ of HMLA http://www.morhaimliterary.com/   https://ninocipri.com/ https://twitter.com/ninocipri   Homesick: https://www.dzancbooks.org/our-books/homesick   Finna: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250245724     Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. And when I say another, it's because this is the third one this week. Rekka:00:10   And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:13   I think my name is just third episode. No, I am Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor, Parvus Press. Why did we do this? Rekka:00:21   Hey, you know what? We're going to be so glad when it's done. Kaelyn:00:24   It is good because these were, these were great interviews. So this is the second episode, um, of interviews with. Rekka:00:29   Interviews with authors - Kaelyn:00:29   Interviews with agented authors. So, you know, first episode, if you missed that one, go back and take a listen to that. The, uh, September, Rekka:00:39   How should we even know? Kaelyn:00:39   [laughs] What day is it? Rekka:00:41   Is it September? Kaelyn:00:42   The September 17th episode. Rekka:00:43   Which was with Caitlin McDonald, the Agent. Kaelyn:00:46   Yes. Rekka:00:47   And then on the 18th, yesterday we spoke with Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes, and Caitlin Starling. And today we are speaking with AJ Hackwith, Jennifer Mace, and Nino Cipri. Kaelyn:00:57   Yes. So, um, second episode of agented author interviews. Uh, you know, how they got them, what, Rekka:01:03   Yeah. Rounding out the experiences that we gathered of people who found agents and then those agents are helping them or have helped them find a home for their manuscript. Kaelyn:01:13   Yeah. And um, some good insights here. Yeah. I think in this set of interviews. So, um, we'll stop talking now because I don't know - Rekka:01:21   To talk. Kaelyn:01:23   Words. Um, so everyone, uh, we hope you enjoy and um, so next week will be the last episode of Submissions September and uh, we're going to be doing what is going on, on the other side of things. Rekka:01:35   Kaelyn's side. Kaelyn:01:35   My side. Rekka:01:36   Yes. Kaelyn:01:36   [laughs evily] You are in my realm now. Rekka:01:41   Well not now. Next week. Kaelyn:01:42   Next week. Yeah. Fair. All right. Well thanks everyone so much for listening and bearing with us through all of this. Enjoy the episode. Music:01:57   [music] AJ:       02:04   I'm Amanda. I write as AJ Hackworth. I have a contemporary fantasy coming out October 1st with Ace called The Library of the Unwritten, I tend to write about mythical stuff and gods and sarcastic and families and all that good kind of good staff. I also have two Scifi romances out as Ada Harper. Um, they both came out last year and the first one is a Conspiracy of Whispers. Rekka:02:29   Cool. And you are represented by an agent. Um, you want to say who and tell us, uh, how you found this agent and why you chose them. AJ:       02:40   Sure. I represented by Caitlin McDonald at the Donald Mass literary agency. I, I found Caitlin via tumbler. That's really what made me, made me reach out with her because she seemed to have a lot of the same interests in likes and fandom interests that I did. I so I thought that she would jive on my writing style and so I reached out to her, um, through the slush pile. Basically I just like queried her and was coming up through the slush. It kind of funny because she had my, full of my book, for 10 months, 11 months. It was a long process. I had actually like had like given up and thrown in the towel and it's never going to happen. And I had pitched the most ridiculous romance I could think of to a Karina Press. And then an offer from them came first, uh, just about the same. It's just about the same time that Caitlin was getting back to me about the full, I'm making an offer. So, uh, it was kind of a weird deal that the book that I queried her with, with not actually the first book that came out, but it's been fantastic. Rekka:03:44   Awesome. Very cool. Okay. When you interact with your agent versus, um, when you interact directly with the editor, with your publisher, um, how would you describe one versus the other and when do you go through Caitlin and when do you go through your editor? AJ:       04:02   I tend to go through Cait, went through Caitlin, whenever there's a disagreement, especially if it's one that's a delicate negotiations, delicate to navigate. Um, I like my relationship with the editor should, uh, is, should usually be in the positive and I cc Caitlin on everything. But if there's something that actually needs to be pushed back on or negotiated with, I definitely sometimes let Caitlin trace the language of that just so she has control of that navigation and I can just be the fun one. Rekka:04:35   She's the bad cop. That was one thing she said. So that's, it's good that you're, um, you're using all the tools you have correctly. It sounds like. AJ:       04:43   Well, you know that takes, that's something you have to learn too. Cause like when I first signed, when we were going through the first uh romances, I was more hesitant. I didn't want to bug my agent. Um, which is a common thing that new writers feel like, you know, you, it's a, it's a change in relationship. Cause when you're querying, you feel like you're trying to impress them and get them to like you and stuff. But then when you are, have signed with them, your business partners and that sometimes is a switch for a lot of writers that they are too hesitant to contact their agent when things come up. Um, and so it took a few times of Caitlin gently say, I should cc me on this. Let me, let me handle this. Um, before I understood, um, how before you look at her communication style and how to make that a real partnership. Rekka:05:28   Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now. What about before, um, you had the book on contract to a publisher, um, editing, um, pitching, like getting the, the submissions ready. What was the process with your agent in that regard? AJ:       05:45   Um Caitlin's very nice editorial level. Um, for my, for my tastes, we did line edit, we did developmental edit and then a line edit, um, before we put it on submission. Um, and that was just about the right level for me. I think we got it in a really good place and she had, she, she had her, her touches on enough that I felt like, um, it was strong going out into submission. Um, and then when we'er on submission, you know, it's so important to know your communication style with the mission cause it's a nerve wracking process. And I like, you know, when we went on submission I asked Caitlin at the beginning of it is like, whether it's good news or bad news, I just want to update at least once a month. And it can just be a summary. I don't need the specifics because I wanted those people that the rejection language will stick in your brain forever. And you of course, you forget the good stuff people say. So that worked out really well as soon as she just, you know, gave me a monthly summary of where we were at in the process. Rekka:06:42   Okay, cool. So did you work together on um, putting the submission package together? Um, in terms of coming up with the language that you use to pitch the book to the editors? AJ:       06:54   It was pretty hands off. Caitlin came up with all of that. Um, we discussed just basically, um, she gave me a list of which houses she was going to approach in this round. Um, and and kind of the vague genre of how we're pitching this book. Um, you know, like, you know, contemporary, literary, smart commercial, all those different types. So we really had a basic discussion, but Caitlin really ran with it past that point, which is great. [laughs] This whole, you already had to query the book once.   Rekka:07:25   Right. You don't want to do it again. AJ:       07:26   Well, magic in itself, the whole submission process. So I'm glad to let an expert have the final say of those things. Rekka:07:33   Okay, great. So it sounds like you feel like you're in good hands. AJ:                   Yeah, it's been good. Rekka:07:38   Awesome. So if you were talking to, uh, an author who was looking for an agent, what are some tips that you would give that author as far as, uh, whatever part you feel like maybe people have misconceptions with before they get into it? Um, either with the querying, with finding the agent, with negotiating, et cetera. AJ:       08:01   I think querying, um, you just, you gotta be patient, it's a long, long process and um, there's some great guides out there. I think I found, you know, after I signed as agent was the area where there's not as much information and, and resources for people for how this should go and go. I think the biggest advice I would give is to start as you intend to go on, which you know, how you want to communicate and establish that early on with an agent. And if you're wondering whether you should email your agent about something or whether, whether it's okay to email them about something, the answer is yes. Rekka:08:37   Fantastic. There's that power balance. It must be difficult to say like, okay, now, like that power balance is more like we're partners in this now and the power struggle and that you feel when you're querying doesn't evaporate inside your head. AJ:       08:56   Yeah. And it was, it was really, it was, it was a, a tough transition, especially for me because we went right from signing her representation and to negotiating a contract for the romances. Um, so we didn't have that like getting to know you build up of, of um, the editorial process. I joke with Caitlin that I knew we, we broke the ice right away when like my second email to her was, uh, talking about fanfic tropes and how my book shouldn't like have any ref- You know, my joke is like when they're in my email included en-preg in the second email, you knew it was a [laughs] Rekka:09:32   Well that's awesome because I mean, so everyone knows the Caitlin is human now, but she promises us that all agents are, and it does sound like once you get past this strange like, um, professional dance that there is a chance to just like relax and get into the relationship and get to work. AJ:       09:51   Yeah, and I, and I think also one of the things I've seen with a bunch of my friends uh getting agents as well is that your relationship is going to be unique to that agent if you're not best buddies. And tweeting memes at your agent all day, that's okay too. Like, you know, I have a pretty, I mean Caitlin and I have a great relationship but we just keep it pretty professional. You know, I'm not tweeting her about, you know, whatever the Internet's on about current time. Um, whereas other other agents I know like our, our, like our, our much more, much more of a friendship relationship with their, their clients. And so it just depends on the agent and depends on the author. And there's no wrong way to have a relationship we've had with an agent as long as it's the right way for you, Rekka:10:36   For both sides to, yeah, definitely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. And um, why don't you give us your pitch for The Library. AJ:       10:44   Sure. The Library of the Unwritten is the story of the Librarian of the Unwritten Wing, which is the library of all the books that were never quite written. All the stories that were never quite told and it happened to be located in hell Rekka:10:57   Exactly where they go when I failed to write that book. Right? AJ:       11:02   It can feel that way for the author that it's definitely a fantasy about, um, books and writers and readers and also about regret and what happens when your story fails to start. Rekka:11:14   Awesome. So everyone get out there and grab a copy. Thank you, Amanda for joining us today. And um, good luck with everything that you're working on. AJ:       11:24   Thank you very much. It's been great to be here. Macey:11:29   I'm Jennifer Maca. I go by Macy and I am a fantasy author, short story writer, poet and podcaster based out of the Pacific northwest. Despite my accent. Kaelyn:11:42   Wait, that's not what everyone sounds like up there? Macey:11:44   It absolutely is. This is what happens when you move to Seattle. This is the secret. They don't want you to know. Kaelyn:11:49   It's because of the coffee. Macey:11:49   And the rain, I feel. I feel like the rain, helps like really get you in character. Kaelyn:11:55   Gotcha. Well thank you so much for uh, taking some time to talk to us. Macey:12:01   So I'm represented by Kurestin Armada of PA Literary and I guess I have a somewhat normal journey to getting an agent. You know, I did actually query uh, I didn't have an agent descend from the sky and pluck me from Twitter, but I guess it kind of starts with, I went to a workshop called Viable Paradise in 2016 and that was kinda my first step along the road to trying to become a professional author. Right? I had all of these books that I'd been writing for years, but I didn't really know what to do with them. And so this is a workshop that's taught by a bunch of professional authors and editors. And while I was there, they talked about, you know, the query process and that really helped me get together what I wanted to say about my book. And so I actually decided to go out querying with the book that wasn't the one I brought to Viable Paradise because I had two books in my back pocket. And you know, who doesn't? Umm - Kaelyn:13:06   It's, it's very true. I, Macey:13:10   I accidentally did NaNoWriMo every year for eight years running before I decided to try to get published. Kaelyn:13:17   Wait, how does this one accidentally do NaNoWriMo? Macey:13:20   I mean, I kind of describe what I was writing. Like back then as I wasn't trying to write books, I was kind of just like textually role-playing. Kaelyn:13:28   Okay. Macey:13:29   Just I wanted to have adventures and makeup adventures to go on, you know? Kaelyn:13:34   Okay, Gotcha. So, okay. So you were actually just consistently doing this and then certain months you were accidentally falling - okay. All right. Macey::           13:43   Yeah, yeah. Kaelyn:13:44   That's, that's wonderful. I love it. Macey:13:47   I decided that I was going to start querying in sort of March, 2017 and I had won in an auction, a query critique with someone who used to be an agent. Yeah. It was super great. It was a Amy Boggs and she did really great work for me. But while I was waiting to hear back from her, it was actually Pit Mad. The Twitter contest. Kaelyn:14:09   Yes. Yes. I really love PitMad. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Macey:14:14   I have so many friends who got their agents that way or at least got one of their offers that way. PitMad is a Twitter like pitch contest where you tweet a very short summary of your book and kind of some hashtags about what genre it is an agents can go through and like the tweets that they want to hear more about. Kaelyn:14:34   Yeah. So it's just, yeah, it's great because it's, it's kind of, I always think of maybe a little bit of a more low pressure situation. It's kind of like, it's like a market almost where it's just like, Hey, I'm here. I got this thing. Macey:14:46   Right. Exactly. And, uh, one of my first was actually from Kursten. Kaelyn:14:53   Oh, okay. Macey:14:54   And she'd actually already been on my list of agents to query because I am an over researcher. And so I had a very detailed list of agents Kaelyn:15:03   Listen, as an acquisitions editor, I appreciate the over researchers. I love hearing like, Hey, I looked you guys up online and I saw you're interested in this. And I'm like, yes, yes. Somebody who who's paying attention, you know? Macey:15:15   And one of the things that I did end up doing, I queried 12 different agents after Kurestin had asked for my manuscript. Um, because you, you keep trying, right? You never know. These things take time. And every one of them I would look through their manuscript wishlist or look through their profile on their agency and make sure to tweak either, you know, which comp titles did I pick or what parts of my book did I highlight? Not In the plot pitch section, but in the like little blurbs section below that in your query letter. And that's where you can kind of do really subtle, um, personalizations Kaelyn:15:51   I don't know if it helped, but it sounds like it did. And if nothing else, it sounds like it didn't hurt. Macey:15:58   Right. So that was in March, Kurestin asked for the first 50 pages from PitMad and then a month later she asked for the full manuscript. And then I think in late July it was, she reached out and said, you know, let's talk, which is the email you are waiting for. And so we had a really great conversation and I followed up with all of the other agents who had had my full and I decided that no, Kurestin is really the one for me. Kaelyn:16:26   So what made you think that Kurestin was really the one for you? This is another thing that we're seeing when we're talking to everyone that they're like, and I just knew I - Macey:16:37   I'm a very analytical person. Um, so I can probably break it down. Kaelyn:16:42   Um, which by the way, you're going to see, you're one of the only authors I know is like, I have some statistics on this. I've given a lot of thought. There's a spreadsheet with a pivot table. And if you look at the corresponding data here. Macey:16:57   Yeah, no like seriously, um, I have so many spreadsheets with so many like cell formulas. I have an entire automated poetry tracking spreadsheet that moves things in and out of the available to sub column based on where they're submitted to and where they're not. Kaelyn:17:13   That's amazing. And I love it as a, as a big fan of excel myself. That is, Yup, that's phenomenal. Macey:17:21   But um for Kurestin, so one of the things for me, I sent out a total of 12 queries over six months and that's a little bit of a low number for some people. I was being very specific when I was researching about who I wanted to query and I was only querying people who represented fantasy and YA and both adult and why a fantasy and who specifically mentioned LGBTQ or queer or gay somewhere in their profile or their manuscript wishlist and that plus, you know, targeting agencies that had a reputation for selling books kind of cut my choices down a lot. But it meant that I was already kind of confident. So I had a fairly short list of agents and so all of them would be really great choices. But for me, Kurestin had a lot of really great editorial things to say about the particular book that I'd sent to her and really understood what I, where it was going. And we also had a conversation about like longer career plans. Did we want to be in this as business partners for the long term because it's not just about will they sign this one book, but do they want to be your career partner? Kaelyn:18:30   Right. Yeah. And that's, that's really important. And I think that's something that not everyone thinks about going into this is this is a business partner. This is a business relationship. And like you both have to be on the same page about what you're expecting out of it. Macey:18:45   Absolutely. And especially since the project that she signed me for, which was a queer, silky, YA novel, it didn't sell. And so now we're moving onto the next project, which I'm super excited about. But like I asked her on the call, what do we do if it doesn't sell? And she says, you know, we keep working and we try the next thing together. And so that was really great to find or have knowledge of an advance and then not be so scared that I was going to disappoint her. Kaelyn:19:14   Do you actually, I just kind of brought up an interesting, uh, the angle that I think author, you know, authors, you guys are so in your own head. Macey:19:23   Yup. Kaelyn:19:23   So some of the most lovely but some of the most anxious people. Macey:19:30   You are not wrong. Kaelyn:19:32   I have ever met, and um, one of the things that you know is the I the self rejection and I the the not good enough. And um, so yeah, disappointing your agent. That's a whole nother level of scary now. Macey:19:46   Isn't it? Kaelyn:19:48   Sp how'd you work through that? Where you've said like? Macey:19:51   Well, so, well one of the things that really great being with Kurestin is we built this kind of community amongst all of her clients called Kurestin's Armada because her last name is Amato and we are dweebs fantastic. And so I have this community of really supportive, amazing fellow clients and we have a little Alack together. And you know, once or twice a week, one of us will go in and be like, I fucked up. She's gonna hate me. And then we're like literally never going to happen. The rest of us know that Kurestin will never hate you, will never hate any of us and we'll fix it. Kurestin still not be mad. You should talk to her and she will help you. And just having someone else who actually knows her be like, no, no, it's fine. Really fix it. Kurestin fixes everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm uh, she, she has done nothing to deserve being saddled with us. Kaelyn:20:57   Well, it sounds like a lovely supportive community and an army nay an armada and the rest, as they say is history. You guys are still working on upcoming projects and you know, that's, that's great. Uh, you know, the ongoing relationship with an agent is so important. Macey:21:20   Right. Kaelyn:21:20   And I think a lot of people when they sign with one are just so excited right off the bat to have their literary agent. It's like, oh, right, I'm going to be with this person for a while. Probably. Macey:21:30   I think it's really hard to get past that initial kind of gut reaction that this is just a stamp of approval. You know, you have gained this status. Kaelyn:21:40   Yeah, it is. It's like, you know, you've completed this quest, here is your - Macey:21:46   Tada. Kaelyn:21:46   Yeah. Um, here is your agent badge to add to your, your book. Um, it's, it's Mewtwo at the end of Pokemon and, but no, because then it's like no, but then you actually have Mewtwo. Macey:22:00   Yeah. You've got to have a relationship with this person who is a human with styles of working with opinions and you need to understand that and not just jump at the first opportunity because it could be a bad one. Kaelyn:22:17   You know, that's so hard. If you're really wanting to get an agent to have to walk away from something and there's no good answer to it, you just kind of have to be aware is really, I think the only way to approach that. Macey:22:34   And I think for me, one of the things that I didn't realize at the time and so kind of lucked into, um, is we were talking a little earlier about how inside our heads authors get and how anxious and I think that in order to stick it out as a writer, you really need to get to know yourself and understand the things that make you more anxious and the things that sues you. And one of the things that's super important is that the communication style of your agent works for you, not against you. I have friends who have, uh, agents that they really, really love, who don't always answer emails and have to be poked with followup things to answer the email. And I'm like, it's great that that works for you. I would have a panic attack, but I would just need curled up in a ball. Like they hate me now Kaelyn:23:27   They're figuring out how to drop contract all together. This is it. Macey:23:34   And that's fine. It's, um, there is no one perfect agent. They're puzzle pieces. Right. Kaelyn:23:41   That's, that's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. And, um, you know, agents that I know and I talked to. I know even just like in my capacity as an editor, I always kind of go to the author and go, what works best for you? If you want to text me questions, that's, that's fine. If you prefer to have like, you know, regular scheduled meetings where we talk about that all at once and that's the only time you hear from me, that's, that's great too. Like I can be flexible. So let me know what works for you because if you're unhappy it's not, this isn't going to work well for anybody. Right. Um, you know, I, the last thing I want to do is be a source of anxiety in your life, right? Yeah, exactly. Macey:24:26   Righ, I have enough of those. Kaelyn:24:27   Exactly. So tell us something, either you wish you had known, you wish other people knew, something you're surprised by about either the process or once you have an agent. Macey:24:37   Hmm. I mean, I think the big one is the communication styles. I have seen agent breakups that have been in large part caused or worsened by that by just a mismatch and just how important it is to understand your own needs before you try to make the sort of commitment. I mean it's not a marriage, but it's a longterm partnership contract. You know what I mean? Kaelyn:25:03   In some cases it's harder to get out of than a marriage. Macey:25:07   Yeah. I mean things get really tangled up once you've sold your money will be coming through that agent forever for that book. Yep. Um, it doesn't have to go away. Kaelyn:25:16   You know what, that's a good point that, uh, I think maybe again, something you don't think about. If you signed a contract for selling your book through an agent and then you and that agent go there, set your separate ways, your money still goes through that agent. Yeah. Does forever. Yup. Because even though you're no longer working with that person, they are technically still your business partner for that particular deal. Yeah. Macey:25:42   They are 15% or whatever their fee is. Kaelyn:25:46   Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's a very good thing to mention. Um, communication style. Yeah. Is very, very important for so many people. And again, I think like you just, when you get the call and you're like, oh my gosh, somebody wants me. Um, Macey:26:04   And I think the other thing is when you're getting those calls and making your decisions, you are setting a pattern for yourself in how you work with that person. And you need to think about setting up a pattern that's going to keep working for you. You need to not be scared to email your agent, right? And that can start early, you know? Um, I pester my agent on Twitter sometimes and gently troll her by suggesting I'm going to write a new book where the entire plot is one Flovence and the Machine's song. Kaelyn:26:37   Um, I mean, you're going to do that though, right? Macey:26:40   Maybe. But then she's like, Macy, that's not what plot means. I'm like, I, I'll fix it later. Kaelyn:26:45   You have some stuff you have to tell us about coming up with you and your life. You're headed to Ireland. Macey:26:52   Yes. My podcast is a finalist for Best Fan Cast at the Hugo's Be The Serpent. And so that's exciting and scary and awesome. Kaelyn:27:01   That's amazing and wonderful and just the greatest thing. Macey:27:05   Yeah, I'm honestly like we, you were completely gobsmacked and amazed just to be on the list and I'm so happy with how many new people have been brought in just to hear a few episodes of the podcast and hopefully stick with us cause I'm really fond of what we do. Kaelyn:27:21   Yeah. So do you want to tell everyone a little bit about like what the podcast is? Macey:27:24   Sure. Kaelyn:27:25   Why it's so awesome. Macey:27:27   It's called Be The Serpent and it is a podcast where three redheaded fantasy authors dissect tropes and patterns and themes in media, in literature, and in fan fiction. Kaelyn:27:40   Do you want to hear three people that just genuinely love and enjoy each other's company. Macey:27:46   And make a lot of dick jokes together. Kaelyn:27:48   And that absolutely that. Come for the friendship - . Macey:27:55   And there's one other thing that's coming up. Myself, Janeen Southard and Danielle Wexler are putting together a Kickstarter, which hopefully should be out in October sometime to fund an anthology of queer ff stories about swords, women and their princess lieges. Kaelyn:28:14   It's going to be amazing. I'm so excited when it was funny because of Rekka had mentioned like, oh, and you have to make sure to remind Macy about the Kickstarter. And so I was like, and hey, tell me about this Kickstarter. Like, oh well it's a ways off still, but here's what it is. And I was like, this is going to be awesome. Macey:28:33   It's going to be so cool. We have so much awesome artwork lined up for people as rewards and stretch goals. And one of our first stretch goals is to hopefully open slush so we can have open call and lots of people can send us their amazing weapons sapphic stories and I can't wait to read all of them Kaelyn:28:54   It's going to be fantastic. A project doesn't, doesn't have a title yet. Macey:28:58   Nope, but we've got some really cool people attached. Um, like Alliette Bardard, Kelly Robson, JY Yang. Kaelyn:29:04   Oh, awesome. That's, that's so great. So, um, yeah, where the Kickstarter is not up yet. There isn't a title yet, but when there is, we'll be sure to put in the show notes and uh, you know, hopefully, you know, you'll have something, you know, we can have put out on Twitter to the masses because that just, it sounds like it's going to be amazing. So, um, okay, well thank you so much for taking the time. Talk to us. Where can people find you? Macey:29:28   I have a website which is EnglishMace.com and I'm on Twitter @EnglishMace and the podcast is Be The Serpent on Podbean, on iTunes, on Google play or wherever you get podcasts. Thank you so much for bringing me. Nino:   29:43   I'm Nino Cipri. Um, I'm a queer and Trans Writer. I've written all kinds of different things, mostly focusing on fiction. Um, I have written screenplays, essays, um, so many angry emails, so many, uh, I have two books that are coming out in the next year. Um, my first collection of short stories is coming out in October. It's called homesick. I'm very excited about that. And then in February, I have haven't developed coming out with Tor.com that's called Finna. I write in a bunch of different genres. The like kind of main main through line is that a lot of my stories have like, they're kind of funny. They have a lot of feelings and they're pretty queer. Um, but I've written like horror, I've written science fiction, I've written like fantasy. I actually wrote a story that's like almost entirely like non genre. There's no spec- the only speculative is that there's like 3 million old or 3 million year old fossils of like intelligent weasels and that's it. Rekka:30:47   That's all you need. Nino:   30:48   That's all I needed. Rekka:30:50   Okay. So with that list of, um, of writing styles and subject matter and genre, um, who was in charge of wrangling your writing career? Nino:   30:59   Uh, I like that wrangling. Um, I am represented by DongWon Song of the Howard Morhaim Agency. Rekka:31:06   And how did you come to choose DongWon? So I actually had kind of a weird journey towards that. I wasn't planning on getting an agent until I had a novel finished, um, which I didn't actually. Um, but in sometime early in the fall, I decided kind of on a whim to enter a contest, uh, like, um, uh, what was it? It was like a short story collection contest with a small press called Dezink. Um, and I had no, like thought that I would win it and then I did and I was shocked and like appalled and I was like, what do you need? Nino:   31:40   Um, but then I had a book deal and then I needed an agent. Um, so I turned as so many millennials do to my friends. Um, and I called a bunch of different people that I knew that all had different agents that I was like, I had been kind of eyeballing them for like, okay, when I start going out and query, I'm going to, I'm going to contact these people. Um, but the fact that I had a book deal like in hand and I needed to sign a contract at some point very soon or reject it, um, kind of sped the process up a lot. So I think I ended up, I talked to a bunch of different friends. I came up with a list of I think like four people who all represented like other writers that I knew pretty well. Um, I asked those friends a lot of questions about like, what the like relationship was like, kind of like exactly like what you're doing. Nino:   32:31   Um, and then ask those friends if they would be willing to, you know, with their agent's permission, like write me a letter of introduction. Um, and I think three of the people, like three of the agents were like, yeah, sure, just like have them email me. Um, and I, one was one of them. I talked to JY Young, um, who is fabulous and awesome and I don't, I don't really know their faces right now because I'm sure everybody knows. Rekka:32:59   Yeah. Nino:   32:59   So it actually ended up coming down to, cause I was talking with a couple of other agents, um, I had to, I got two offers and then ended up going with DongWon. Um, and then almost immediately after like got another book deals. So I feel like I kind of like prove my worth, like, technically? Rekka:33:15   Well no regrets. Right? Nino:   33:18   Yeah. Rekka:33:20   So, um, that's an interesting way to come about having an agent is having the contract first. Um, yeah, which is funny because we think about like the, the power dynamic between the author who is querying and the agent who must, you know, judge and, and accept or, or you know, there's several stages of acceptance with the agent and um, it feels like you kind of get to skip ahead in line a little bit because like, um, not only do you have a book deal, but you also have a little bit of a time pressure that you can leverage to say like, Hey, um, there's a bit of a of a time crunch on this. Could you just let me know real quick? So did, um, so normally when an agent replies to a query, they are requesting a full or a partial or, or some, um, step forward from whatever has been queried. So what were you querying with and what was the next step from there? Nino:   34:15   Like what I sent to DongWon, like the other agents that I was talking to, I sent them like the manuscript for the, um, for the short story collection. Okay. And just be like, this is what is getting published. I think I sent them the contract that was on offer as well. Um, and then I also sent them like, I think the first 10 pages of the novel in progress that I had, which was a young adult horror novel. Um, and it was just like, this is not finished. Just so you know, like just when I tried to be like very, very transparent with that. Like, here's what I've got, here's the first chapter of it, or like the first half of the first chapter. Um, so you can get like an idea of like what I'm, what I'm working on next. Okay. And then I am working on something. Rekka:34:59   And so the contract was an offer for that future novel? Is that what it was or is it the contract for the short story? Nino:   35:05   The contract was for the short story. Rekka:35:06   Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So now you have an agent, you already have a contract, you've already sold a short story. Um, so the agent and you, I'm sorry DongWon and you began to work on that novel together. Is that what the next step is? Nino:   35:22   I should mentioned that all of this was happening when I was in my last year of an MFA program. Yeah. This was, it was like the last six months of it. Rekka:35:30   Okay. Nino:   35:32   So there was like a bunch of different things going on. Um, so on the heels of this offer for the short story collection, um, the novella that was in there was originally in that short story collection. Um, I had also submitted to Tor and Tor.com like novella submission window. Rekka:35:49   Right. Nino:   35:49   Um, and which was like, I double check to make sure that I could do simultaneous submissions and I did. Um, but the thing that people say might happen but never ever will actually happen, happened to me where like I had the offer and I had withdrawn it, um, from Tor immediately. And then like Carl Anglay was just like, I want that. Nino:   36:14   Yeah. So he ended up calling DongWon, DongWon called me. We both called my publisher at the, at Dezink. Just be like, um, so this awkward thing is happening. Yeah. Um, so that was the next thing we actually started working on was something else that like was already the kind of like fell into our lap. Um, which was really nice. And so now, um, like all of that had to be kind of like taken care of. I edited, finished up. Um, so now I'm trying to finish up like revisions on my novel. Um, I finished the first draft. I think this was also my like masters thesis. So I finished the first draft sometime in April I think, and then sends it on to him and like we made a revision plan and yeah, that's what we're working on now. Rekka:37:01   Okay. Alright. So the novels that you have, the books, um, I didn't catch the length that you have coming out in the future. Are these different? Nino:   37:11   Yeah, the short story collection, one novella. And I'm trying to work on a novel and like also there's like a screenplay that's like way over there that I think I was just going to be like, can you just make it fiction? Rekka:37:23   So, um, how is working with DongWon on your novel versus working on the contracts and all the business like communications. Nino:   37:32   So with the other two manuscripts, he was fairly hands off. Um, when we were talking about like, uh, trying to like maneuver one Novella into Tor's hands and then like another novella to this to, to Dezank. Um, he read the like replacement novella cause I was like, you know, this is a pretty rough draft. I didn't, you know, it needs another couple of revisions for sure. Do you want to read it and let me know what you think of it? Like here's my thoughts about it. Um, so he gave me like, he was mostly just like, yeah, I think I agree with basically everything that you, you know, all of your instincts on what through revise are good in my opinion. Um, but he also knew that like, uh, the editor at design would have like a lot more, um, specific feedback. Nino:   38:19   So he was like, here's like the kind of like big picture stuff that I think too you need to work on. Um, the novella, like, because it was already thought, like he was just like, you know, didn't really have any, anything to really say about that one I don't think cause you knew like Carl would be Carl Anglered at Tor would have, you know, his own feedback that he would want implemented. Um, with the novel. He read it and he like, we met for drinks and he was like, okay, we've got like basically one of four ways that you can revise this. Like, and was really good at just trying to figure out first like, what was my vision of this book? Like what did I actually think this was about? And ones that I want it to be. Um, you know, he's like, is this an adult horror novel? Is this young adult or is this about trauma? Um, and it was like we figured out there's like, we like what it was and then how to get it closer to that. Rekka:39:11   Okay, great. So that was all over drinks. You just like hashed it out in person? Nino:   39:15   Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, I, and he said that because he said he wanted to do that because he could tell like there was different directions that it could be, it could go, um, like, and that is easier to figure out in person rather than like over email. Sure. And you don't really appreciate cause yeah, yeah. Email him that. Rekka:39:35   Well plus the back and forth, the time lag and then trying to phrase things correctly without the context of facial expression and volume and enthusiasm is, is different. Okay. Nino:   39:47   When I first signed with him, I was living in Kansas. I'm attempting to move to New York. I have, I'm trying to find a job here. Rekka:39:54   Oh, okay. Nino:   39:55   - permanently, but yeah. Um, even before my partner Nibs lives here, so I was here pretty regularly, like every, I've maybe every other month. Rekka:40:04   Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't out of your way. It wasn't like come to this expensive conference and then we'll meet and have this, have this meeting. So that's good. Awesome. How often would you say you check in with DongWon? Nino:   40:17   Hmm. He's good at like telling me the things that I need to know. But he also, I think respects the fact that I'm like, you know, we're both very busy people. I'm trying to find a job. He has a bunch of, he's got like several other clients and travels a lot. Yeah. Um, we check in like fairly regularly. I would say like maybe once a month, twice a month, something like that. And he'll send me updates on things like, you know, oh, there was film interest in this thing. Um, I'm just going to let you know. And also here's what you should maybe expect out of that. Which of course was not much, but it's nice. Consider it a complement. Rekka:40:54   Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So if someone you knew was in your position where you were after you won this contest or, um, in the position of somebody who hadn't won anything for, um, their writing yet, but was looking for an agent to represent their work, would you have any tips for that person, what they could expect or what, what you would recommend they do? Nino:   41:15   So in this, I would say like definitely if you have a community like if you know other writers like talk to them about their agents, talk to them about, um, like what are the reasons like that I signed with them. Like what were their expectations going in versus what, um, you, they've learned since then. Like what the reality actually is. Um, and like I and I, I actually have like talked to some people like who are going out, like starting to query it and I'm just like, you should absolutely do what I did. Absolutely. Get your friends for at you like introduction. Rekka:41:49   Yeah. Nino:   41:50   Your friends are willing to and their agents are okay with it. Like right there. Right. Get them to write you introductions. Like, I feel like anything that can kind of like put you a little bit ahead is helpful. Um, and I don't think it's like breaking the rules at least as far as I know. Maybe there are rules, but like, like nobody told me that when I was starting. Rekka:42:10   So, so your tip is, um, no, no rules and just go forward. Nino:   42:15   Well, and I think too, like agents, especially ones that are trying to find like build their client base are really good at like trying to make themselves accessible in various ways with DongWon, like I know that he's really active and like going to cons and like, um, talking to new writers and doing all of these things. So if that opportunity presents itself to like talk to an agent, then yeah, absolutely. Do that. Like go to go to a conference or a convention if that's something that's available to you. Rekka:42:43   Awesome. All right, cool. So community basically is, is the center of the universe for making this happen? Nino:   42:49   That is absolutely, yeah. That's like the, all the advice I ever have about writing comes down to just like just to build, build better in larger communities. Rekka:42:57   Awesome. Nino:   42:58   Yeah. Hunger communities. Rekka:42:59   Yes. 100%. All right. So um, you'll give us the names of the two books before. Just remind us before we let you go. Nino:   43:08   Okay. Yeah, so in October the my short story collection Homesick is going to be released from Dzanc Books. You can preorder it now. Yes, you can absolutely preorder it now. Um, and then Finna, which is a novella is going to be up from tour.com in February. Rekka:43:25   Okay, great. And we will include links to that in our show notes and thank you so much for your time and we really appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience. Cause like you said, learning from your friends, learning from others in the writing community is, is like such a great resource. Nino:   43:38   It is. It is. Oh God. Yeah. I would not be anywhere without my friends. Rekka:43:42   Absolutely. Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Nino:   43:46   Thanks you too. Rekka:44:04   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.    

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and we’re on part two of Agents Week!  For this episode we got to talk to three agented authors to hear about their journey and experience in signing with their literary agent.  Tyler Hayes, Sam Hawke, and Caitlin Starling were all kind enough to tell us their stories, share their experiences, and even offer some insight and wisdom.  You can (and should!) check them all out on Twitter, Instagram, and their website, all of which are linked below! In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and well, never mind about the football-related stress relief suggestions, Daniel Jones it is. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast And check out this episode’s interviewees! Tyler Hayes- 00:01:28 - 00:15:34   Represented by Lisa Abellera of Kimberley Cameron & Associates http://www.kimberleycameron.com/lisa-abellera.php   https://tyler-hayes.com/ https://twitter.com/the_real_tyler   The Imaginary Corpse https://www.angryrobotbooks.com/shop/fantasy/the-imaginary-corpse/     ====   Sam Hawke- 00:15:35 - 00:25:42   Represented by Julie Crisp of Julie Crisp Literary Agency http://www.juliecrisp.co.uk/   https://samhawkewrites.com/ https://twitter.com/samhawkewrites   City of Lies: https://samhawkewrites.com/books/buy-sams-books/   ===     Caitlin Starling- 00:25:43 - 00:40:36   Represented by Caitlin McDonald https://literallycait.tumblr.com/ of DMLA http://maassagency.com/   https://www.caitlinstarling.com/ https://twitter.com/see_starling   The Luminous Dead https://www.harpercollins.com/9780062846907/the-luminous-dead/   Rekka:00:01   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I am Rekka and I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:10   And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:14   So today is the first of our two episodes where we talk to authors about their experience with their agents, getting their agent and working with them. Kaelyn:00:23   Yeah. And our previous episode we talked to Caitlin McDonald who is an agent, but we wanted to talk to some authors that have agents because hearing an agent is one thing. Hearing an author who has done this is another. Rekka:00:37   So we got a bunch of them. Kaelyn:00:39   Yeah. And um, you're, you'll hear in this, uh, this episode, these three authors all kind of have different paths to this. There really isn't like the standard story of how you got there. Um, we talked to Sam Hawk, Tyler Hayes and Caitlin Starling. Rekka:00:54   Cause they're individual interviews, this episode goes a tiny bit long. Kaelyn:00:57   A bit long. Rekka:00:57   So we'll, we'll make room for the other episodes you've gotta listen to this week and we hope that this week on agents is serving you well and getting you excited. Kaelyn:01:07   So thanks everyone. Enjoy the episode. Speaker 2:       01:13   [music] Tyler:   01:28   My name is Tyler Hayes. Uh, I've been, I've been writing for about 25 years and writing for money for 16 of that. Um, and my, my debut novel, the Imaginary Corpse is coming out from Angry Robot on September 10th. So I'm repped by Lisa Avalara at Kimberly Cameron and Associates. They're up here in northern California near me. So my story is a little bit backwards from typical, um, in that I actually had the offer on the book before I had an agent. Um, I had been following the kind of normal path of query, partial request, full request, reject, reject, reject, reject. Um, so I was piling up rejections, uh, on this book and they were all those like, you're almost there. Types of rejections. Like it was a lot of, I loved this, but I don't know where I'd put it. And so I don't want to offer to represent it when I'm not confident to where I'd place it. Kaelyn:02:27   Okay. As far as rejections go better than others. Tyler:   02:32   Yes, indeed. And I got of course a few, I formed out a few places, but the, the ones that were personalized, we're all like, God, I wish I knew where to put this, but I'm sorry. Kaelyn:02:42   Yeah. Tyler:   02:43   Um, so midway through that, uh, I got the notice for through my writing community, um, that Angry Robot books was doing their open door period, which they do once a year. Um, and I thought, well, worst case I'll be exactly where I am now if they say no, so I'll go ahead and send it and then I'll keep doing what I'm doing. And I just sent it and like made a note, you know, that it had happened and kind of set the, the drop dead date on it just so I knew when to not bother talking to them if something happened. And uh, just kept going and uh, I kept piling up the rejections. I got more and more discouraged. I had a real heart to heart with some of my critique partners and we actually agreed we were going to temporarily trunk the Imaginary Corpse. Um, not because it was bad, but because we're like, probably the problem. Kaelyn:03:33   Wait, Tyler, trunk? You missed a perfectly good myster pun there. Bury! Come on. Tyler:   03:41   Right. You know, we'll see. This is why I take multiple drafts. Um, so, um, so we're talking about, I'm talking about, uh, just burying this thing out in the desert and pulling it out later, basically saying it's good, but probably this will be a better second or third book. This will be an easier book to sell when you have a name to market it on. And um, and I said, you know, I think you've got a point. As much as I love this book, it's probably time to say goodbye. I'll let this set of queries kind of peter out and if none of them end in an offer, uh, I'll say goodbye and we'll move onto the next thing. And literally I made that decision and then came into my office job the next morning and I had an email waiting for me from Angry Robot books saying, we love this and we want to publish it next year. Uh, this was in summer 2018 after I finished biting down on my hand, so I didn't scream in the middle of my office. I, uh, you know, I finished screaming internally, told all the people who you typically tell, oh my God, I've got an offer. And they were, who reminded me do not pass go, get an agent. So I followed up with via three agents at the time, had my query and had not said anything. Tyler:   04:53   Um, oh, that's not true. One hit it asked for a partial. Okay. Um, so I emailed those three, uh, and also one who also told me like, she took like a full request to decide I can't sell this. So I emailed her too, cause why not? And basically I got to, I've got two people who said, no. Uh, I still don't think, I don't feel strongly enough about the project to feel good taking you on. Um, and then I got to, who actually did the infamous agent call? Uh, one of them was Lisa. Um, and, uh, after a, some thought, you know, I did the normal thing. I took the calls, told them both give me a few days. Um, and I went with Lisa basically because of her enthusiasm, um, was a lot of it. Uh, I got on the phone with her and she was enthusiastic. Tyler:   05:39   She was warm and she was kind, and she also took very seriously that I wanted to be a full time writer. Um, and she, and, but she also made sure I knew what kind of work goes into that. She was not like, Oh yeah, we can absolutely get you there. She said, well, okay, we can try, but here's the path that you are going on at that point. Here's when I think it makes sense for you to tell your day job: See Ya. Um, and so that also really won me over. I was like, oh good. She takes me seriously. But she's not, uh, you know, she's not trying to sugar coat it either. She's just saying like, we'll, we'll work to that, but we will work to get there. So, um, so yeah, so that's, that's my story. She gave me an offer, I accepted the offer and we wound up negotiating with angry robot. And here we are. Kaelyn:06:29   That's, I mean, that's fantastic. That, you know, could not have gone more smoothly aside from, you know, all of the other rejections previous to that. Tyler:   06:36   Yeah, absolutely. There, there were a few crying jags, but you know, that's, that's the business. Kaelyn:06:41   It's a rite of passage, you know, if - Tyler:   06:42   Right. Kaelyn:06:43   Um, so because you had that really interesting, you know, sort of path to this, I think people listening to this might hear that and say, why do I then need to, I want to in who I'm going to have to give another percentage of my money to? So obviously you're very excited to have your agent and happy with them. So why were they worth it? That seems like a no brainer. Tyler:   07:07   Okay. So they were worth it because I was not confident in my own negotiation power. Um, I knew that I was not coming from a place of strength in negotiating with a publisher. Um, and I knew I wasn't coming from a place of experience. Um, whereas Lisa, uh, when she spoke to me was immediately like, you know, she, uh, she immediately went, ah, you know, I know what, uh, probably the boiler plate contract looks like, and I know that I can get you something a little bit better in negotiations. I mean, Kaelyn:07:38   Which you'd like to hear. Tyler:   07:40   Yeah, absolutely. Um, and she was not um, just to be clear, I can say of my publisher here that she was not critical Angry Robot. She was just like, I know that this is an opening offer and I can, you know, if I can get you a little bit more in a negotiation, um, and just the relief of no, somebody who knows what they're doing with the business side, we'll be going to bat for that for my rights, for my advance rather than me with my, you know, I know a little something about something, but I'm not an a, I'm not a professional negotiator, you know, rather than me just going, well, I'd like a little bit more please. Kaelyn:08:19   Yeah. Maybe extra money? Yeah, no, it's okay. You know what? I don't need the money. You guys should have it. Yeah. I think that's a good point that you brought up though that um, there's a lot of people don't consider with the agent and everything they're thinking is, you know, advanced royalties, money. There's a lot of other stuff that goes into these, like rights is a huge part of it. What are the agents know these things that, like you said, shoot, I know the boiler plate here. I know what they're going to send you already because I'm sure she's dealt with them. Tyler:   08:47   Yeah. That was the other thing was that I found really helpful was that she was able to also, uh, reassure me about, she was able to explain my contract to me in language that I understood because of course it's written in legal-ese, which exists for a reason, but is hard for a lay person to interpret. And she was able to get on the phone with me and say, so this clause means this, that clause means that. Kaelyn:09:10   Yup. Tyler:   09:10   I understand the wording here is alarming. But actually what they're saying is, um, and, and she was also able to tell me what wasn't, wasn't unusual, you know, she was able to say like, so this clause here, literally every publisher will put this clause in the contract. This clause here is news to me, but possibly it's because they're British, not American. Let me look into that. Kaelyn:09:35   Yeah. Tyler:   09:35   And that was the other thing is she was like, I'll, I'll check with the other people I know who've worked with Angry Robot or other British publishers, make sure that I'm not raising an eyebrow at something that just has to do with UK copyright law, et Cetera. Kaelyn:09:47   Yeah. I, I, well see, it's funny because I'm very involved with the contracts at Parvus. Tyler:   09:51   Right. Kaelyn:09:52   And I'm even sometimes having to go like, wait a second. Okay. Right. Yes. That thing, I remember that now. So yeah, having someone who can walk in and that is so tremendously helpful and important so that you know what you're signing. Tyler:   10:04   Yes. Kaelyn:10:05   So you signed the agreement and then, you know, what came next? Tyler:   10:10   Of course we had the negotiation until we signed. Uh, and then it's been follow up on the negotiation. Um, you know, checking in about stuff like publicity, um, you know, like making sure that I'm aware of what expected next steps are, which Angry Robot, of course, it also has a publicity manager. A shout out to Jenna who is amazing. Um, but, uh, you know, but both of them, both her and Lisa are working with me to say, okay, these are the things we're going to expect you to do. This is the sort of stuff we recommend in Lisa states, ss going: So my authors at a similar level to you, I've had a lot of success doing this and that, so let's try to make sure that's on the schedule. Um, and then kind of the other stuff has been follow up, uh, getting ready for the next project and kind of making sure we're both on the same page about what we're doing next and where we want to go up is of course the answer. Kaelyn:11:03   Yeah. What we're kind of finishing with everyone it advice that you have or something that surprised you about this process. Tyler:   11:11   As far as what surprised me, I think I was, this is going to sound cynical at first, so give me a minute to explain it. I was surprised by how little really matters in a query packet, by which I mean, you know, I, I've mentored several people I've worked with folks. I'm kind of coming up behind me trying to get their debut together and I thought the same things they did. I thought I should in my bio list, everything that was even vaguely tangentially related to writing. Um, I that I should, you know, mention any scholarship I got that might apply to creative writing that I should talk about how much people loved my short stories in high school, that sort of thing. Um, when really what they want in a query is they want a query letter that pops in whatever way they want you to follow their darn directions and they want to see a good book. Kaelyn:12:08   And if you've got something else that's great, but it's gravy. As, as for advice, I guess my biggest advice would be for finding an agent. Um, do your research. Like really look for someone who seems like a good fit. Who, uh, I can, I can highly recommend Query Tracker. I highly recommend manuscriptwishlist.com. Tyler:   12:28   That's a great website. Kaelyn:12:30   Yes. I, uh, I also recommend looking at, uh, like writers conferences and pitch parties and stuff that are happening to find out who's going, not necessarily to go yourself though if you, if that's your bag, fantastic. But I'm not really into the like speed pitching type thing. Um, but that was actually how I found Lisa was I found out she was doing a writer's conference in near me and I went, oh, she's out there. She's actively growing her client list. You know, she is seeking out new people to represent. Tyler:   13:00   This is the type of agent I want to talk to as opposed to just cold emailing agents and going, I think you're looking for someone new. You're not listed as closed. So, um, but also, uh, my biggest thing once you're talking to them, but once you are actually corresponding with agents, whether it's the legendary agent call or just emails, um, look for someone who is a good fit, who feels right to you. And I know that sounds very vague and kind of crystal vibration-y, um, but seriously, look for someone who you talk to and you feel this is a good fit. This is a personality fit because they are your business partner. When it comes down to it. Kaelyn:13:41   You said something very telling when you were talking about why you decided to go with Lisa was that she was excited and enthusiastic. Tyler:   13:49   Yes. Kaelyn:13:50   Working ... do this is, this is a business partner. This is someone that is going to help you be the most successful that you possibly can. And if they're not excited, that's not gonna, probably not going to work out great in the long run. Tyler:   14:05   Yeah, I I knew so related story, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but down the road from the book was at the book was, was finally edited. It was going to proofs. I didn't, they have to touch it anymore. And so Lisa and I had to call about, okay, what's next? And I told her my idea for my next book that I was in the process of writing at the time. And she actually gaspedout loud on the phone. She was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And I was like, see, now I know for sure. I've done the right thing. Kaelyn:14:34   What a gratifying feeling that must have been. Tyler:   14:34   That's what you want. You want that agent - Exactly right. I was like, oh my gosh, you know. Oh good. I really did pick the right person. Like I hadn't, no doubt, but it was that beautiful reaction of like no, good! This, this is a partnership where I know she wants to sell this work because she wants to read it. So the Imaginary Corpse is a weird fantasy about a plush dinosaur and ex-imaginary friend investigating the first serial killer of the imagination. Uh, it is out from Angry Robot books. Uh, you can pick it up from your friendly local bookstore or directly from Angry Robot's website or from the usual online book vendors. Kaelyn:15:07   Okay. Awesome. So yeah, check that out. How can people find you online? Tyler:   15:10   The easiest places to find me are Twitter at, @the_real_Tyler,underscores, between the words. So the underscore real underscore Tyler. Um, or an Instagram @TylerHayesbooks. All one word also on my website, Tyler-Hayes.com. Kaelyn:15:25   Congratulations on the book, I know we're recording in the future, so I will wish you good luck with the book launch and uh, so that sounds fantastic. Tyler:   15:32   Thank you. Rekka:15:34   [sound effect] Sam:    15:35   I'm Sam Book. I'm going to scifi and fantasy writer. My first book City of Lies, came out last year in July and I'm currently working on the sequel. Rekka:15:43   The City of Lies, which I happened to have read is a, uh, an award winning book. I notice you're, you're a little too humble to say, so I'll say it for you. Quadrupl now? Was it four awards now for that one? Sam:    15:56   It has won a few. Yeah. Rekka:15:58   Fantastic. Well, congratulations. So could you tell us who your agent is and how you chose them? Sam:    16:05   Oh, well my agent is Julie Crisp, in London. Um, applied to a whole bunch of agents when I was query and um, ended up having conversations with um, a few different agents in the UK and in the US um, all of whom were really lovely. And, um, all of whom were enthusiastic about my work and um, I got along really well with all of them on the call. I think ultimately I chose Julie, uh, because of her editing background, uh, in particular because I was a very isolated writer. And I really didn't, um, we hadn't really worked with anyone who'd ever edited me before. I've, well I can probably use it. Um, so Julie was the, um, acquisitions editor at UK Tor before she switched to agenting. So she has a really strong editing background. Um, and she has some really strong ideas for changes to the book. Um, so ultimately that was, that was probably the key. Rekka:16:58   Okay, cool. So you, you kind of knew what you wanted out of an agent in addition to your representation and someone who would submit to publishers that might be out of reach. Otherwise, you also like had a strong sense that you needed somebody who was going to be involved in the editorial process with you before that even happened. Sam:    17:17   Yeah, I think that's, that's right. Because as I said, I really hadn't worked that much on my writing with anybody. I'd been very solitary. Rekka:17:25   What was the experience, I assume you, um, made a revision or two on City of Lies before it went out to some. Sam:    17:33   Yeah, so we actually did some pretty enormous revisions on it um, in that time. So we probably took out from when I signed to when we actually went out on sub, it was probably eight or nine months. Rekka:17:45   Okay. New Speaker:  17:45   Cause I do kind of a massive structural change in the where Julie had suggested that I balance the, the two point of view characters differently. So I essentially had to kind of pull the book completely apart, work out what scenes needed to be in what perspective and kind of rebalance, rebalance it and put it all back together again. Which um, is a very, um, look, it was a difficult - Rekka:18:13   Yes. New Speaker:  18:13   process, bit totally worth it in the end. It definitely made it a better book. Rekka:18:17   Um, POV shifts and like tiny adjustments to POVs can make such a rippling effect on a revision pass. New Speaker:  18:25   Oh my God, so much you think it wouldn't be that hard to switch from one to the other, you know singles? It was, it was so hard and so different because the two characters, even though they're quite similar in terms of, um, they'll rise in the same way and they have a kind of similar perspective, um, they still, they still react to situations differently and they differently notice things, different things about a scenario. So, um, changing from one to the other, even it's just not defined. Rekka:18:51   It was not a find and replace of the name. Yeah, New Speaker:  18:52   Not the same thing. Yeah. Rekka:18:54   Yeah. Awesome. Well, okay, so what other kinds of interactions do you have with Julie? Um, in terms of, um, like copy editing or line editing, um, and then the submissions process and, um, what, what do you rely on her for in your author career? New Speaker:  19:14   Well, she kind of, um, pulls me back from the edge when I'm being in giant baby. Rekka:19:19   So emotional support. New Speaker:  19:21   Emotional support, you know that, um, there's a Gif of a little boy holding onto a rope and wailing and crying in what looks like fast running water. And then his guardian comes over and standing up and he's actually sort of standing at thigh high water and it's not dangerous at all. Rekka:19:38   Right. New Speaker:  19:39   That's how I feel about me, me, me sort of panicky about things and her talking me down. Um, yeah. So no, I use it very much. It's, I'm a person who's kind of always my advocate and on my team and helping me, um, get through this sometimes quite challenging business so that in addition to the support she gives me in terms of editing and she still works really, she worked really extensively on the book. Even after we'd signed with a publisher and know a lot of agents would kind of step back at the point of which they've sold the book and say, you know, that's the publisher's job now. I've kind of done my part and Julie very much doesn't do that. Rekka:20:15   And she was involved all the way through the copy editing stage and, and um, basically just anything that I need, she always makes herself available. Um, which has just been really, really invaluable to me. New Speaker:  20:29   Yeah. To know that there's always somebody who's got your back and will reinforce your decisions and stuff like that. Rekka:20:35   Exactly. New Speaker:  20:36   Awesome. Um, so how often do you check in with her? Is this like a weekly or a biweekly or monthly? Rekka:20:45   Uh, it, it depends what's going on. So when there's a lot of stuff going on, we could talk every couple of days when it's just sort of like right now where I'm just drafting a new material. They may, it might be less frequent, but yeah, if you've, when you're on submission, I was checking in quite regularly and when there's a lot of things happening anywhere around the kind of releases, the first book last year was a very busy time and I was harassing her constantly. She's very good about it. Rekka:21:13   And when you were putting the book out in submission, had you worked on the pitches for the publishers together or did you, uh, you know, throw up your hands after you queried agents and say, okay, no, you can do it please. Sam:    21:27   She handled that, that um but entirely. Um, I mean, I think to some extent she used some material that I developed in terms of pitching agents. Um, she, she kind of used some of that in her pitches to publishes, I think. But one of the good things about having an agent, um, is they're kind of preexisting relationships with, with people in the industry and they know what particular editors are looking for and they're kind of in a much better place than I am to know what we'll work on a particular person. So I left that entirely in her. Rekka:22:00   Yeah, I can, I can understand, um, being relieved that you don't have to be part of that process. Um, I'm a micromanager, so I don't know, Sam:    22:10   I'm bad at talking about, about, about what my book is about. Yeah. Rekka:22:12   Yeah. I think every author is guilty of that for sure. So if you were talking to a new author or an unrepresented author who was looking for an agent, what tips would you give them about, um, seeking someone to represent them? Sam:    22:27   I will, I would say there's so much information available now about how to do a good job of pitching and approaching agents, um, that there's really, as long as you're well prepared, there's really no excuse for making dumb mistakes that are gonna get you eliminated before you even get a chance. So take your time and do your research, um, approach the, the, the query letter or whatever you're using to, to approach the person as a business proposal. So you're looking to, to strike up a business relationship with somebody. So you want to sound like a person that they want to do business with. So, you know, don't be a dick. Rekka:23:04   Fair enough. I mean, there it is. Okay. Awesome. So, no, I think that's a great tip. It's like there is, like you said, so much guidance out there, there are tons of blog posts about how to write a query letter. There are, uh, editors and agents who post query letters they've received, you know, that have been scrubbed for identity, but they kind of pick them apart and say like, here's why this isn't working or here's why this is a good example. And then there are plenty of people, um, you know, within anyone's, uh, general, uh, community that could offer advice or can even, you know, um, send people in the direction of a, of an agent that they might be interested in. Yeah. Sam:    23:45   Yeah, I think that's right. The information is there. Um, so don't, you know, don't rush it. But on the other hand you can also over research forever. I probably [laughs] I'm an over preparer. Rekka:23:56   Oh yeah. Sam:    23:56   You don't need like the 11 spreadsheets in one. All the colors probably. Rekka:23:59   Oh, come on. New Speaker:  24:00   I had that. Unless you really love spreadsheets like I do that. Sam:    24:04   Yeah. New Speaker:  24:04   In which case it's a delight. Rekka:24:06   Well, it, they can be calming, right? Like they can be reassuring. Like, look, I have facts. There are cells. Um, why don't you, uh, plug City of Lies again, the award winning City of Lies. Um, so our, our listeners know, um, like basically give us your elevator pitch. Sam:    24:21   Uh, City of Lies is uh basically a closed room murder mystery set, you know, a besieged city. So it's about a couple of siblings whose family are poisoned tasters for their, the ruling family of the city. Um, there at the beginning of the book, their uncle, uh, the current poison taster and the chancellor of the city are both killed by an unknown poison. And then the city falls under the sage, seemingly from its own people and our main characters, the brother and sister have to try to figure out who, who killed their uncle and the chancellor, um, prevent that person from doing the same to the new chancellor and figure out what's happening with the rebellion, um, before that whole city falls, I guess. Rekka:25:05   Yeah. You know, it's funny you say it's a closed roommurder mystery and you're totally right. Even though it's like in an open world city. Um, they are definitely, um, for most of the book confined to a small area and also by their, um, like their class standing. They're expected to stay in certain places. So that's a really interesting way of putting that. New Speaker:  25:22   Yeah, I picked fantasy it's my, my jam, but my other great love is closed door mystery. So this is like my collage to the, the two genres that I love the best. Rekka:25:34   I really appreciate your time and um, thank you so much for coming on and I know everyone's going to go check out that book because they should. Sam:    25:40   No worries. Thanks for having me. Speaker 6:       25:42   [sound effect] Caitlin:25:44   My name is Caitlin Starling. I'm the author of the Luminous Dead, which came out, um, this past April from Harper Voyager. And I also worked as the narrative designer on this strange little show in New York last fall called A Human. Kaelyn:25:57   Interesting. I didn't know that actually. That's very cool. Caitlin:26:00   Yeah, I got to design body parts for money. It was very exciting. Kaelyn:26:03   That is very cool. Caitlin:26:05   So I am repped by Caitlin McDonald, who is over at the Donald Maass Literary Agency. Kaelyn:26:10   Caitlin McDonald is the agent that we interviewed for the previous, uh, yes, the first episode that came out this week. Caitlin:26:16   I may have thrown her. I may have thrown for your way. There's a bunch of Kaitlin's in my emails at all times. It gets very exciting on calls. We actually have to refer to each other as Agent Caitlin and Author Caitlin. So before anything happens, everyone else knows which one that's talking in, which one is referring. Kaelyn:26:31   So, um, that's been really fun. But, um, so I signed with her back in April of 2017 and I had been querying at that point for a little bit over a year and Caitlin McDonald was actually the first agent I ever queried. Um, but it took awhile to get to a full request and then also for her to get to the manuscript after that. So she also ended up being the first one to offer even though I in the meantime queried about 40 other agents. Um, which of course kicked off the following up with everybody else. I ended up getting one other offer, um, and a couple of their near, near misses, but it was between two agents and Caitlin Macdonald was newer and um, had fewer sales under her belt, but we clicked more on several levels, including for me what's really important is, um, being extremely detail oriented and comfortable talking about logistics and practicalities like contracts. Caitlin:27:31   Um, Caitlin McDonald, I'm sure she told you, uh, used to work in contracts. Kaelyn:27:36   Yes. Caitlin:27:37   Pretty much exclusively for a while. So, and I used to work for a lawyer, so it was really nice to basically say, what's your termination clause like? And for her to just send over the boilerplate agency agreement. And we were able to just talk about contracts. Now, I know that's not for everybody because a lot of people see contracts and start screaming internally. Um, but for me, that was a really big determining factor of why I felt so comfortable with going forward. Kaelyn:28:00   Well, and that's actually very interesting to hear because I'm, one of the questions we got or things people ask is, do I just take the first offer that I get? And I've heard other people say, well, you might only get one offer. You had two and you actually had to make a choice. Caitlin:28:15   I did. Yes. Kaelyn:28:15   So that's very interesting to hear - Caitlin:28:17   Which is very difficult. Kaelyn:28:18   Yeah. Um, it's a, it's a big deal in, it's a commitment. It's a potentially very long relationship. So - Caitlin:28:25   Yeah, it was, it was a really hard decision. Um, the other agent who offered, like I alluded to, you had a lot, a lot more years behind her and a lot more sales behind her. Um, and in some ways I clicked with her personally right off the bat faster than I did with Caitlin McDonald. But after talking, having several conversations with both and, um, in particular, Caitlin McDonald's boss, Donna Moss actually was willing to talk to me about what sort of support she had behind her as a new agent. Um, because it's really important for new agents to have, you know, you'd be able to use the connections that their agency has to be able to go to other agents to say, okay, have you ever been in this situation? What did you do? Um, and that made me confident that even though she was newer at the time, that she had the clout behind her to basically put her on an even footing with the other agent and then I could focus on other details. Caitlin:29:15   Um, and then also, I mean, what, I didn't really think about it at the time, but what does become really clear to me that I'm really, um, was really a good move on my part: Caitlin McDonald is queer. I'm queer, I write queer fiction. It's really nice having her in my corner and fully understanding where I'm coming from as opposed to, um, you know, being supportive but not having that same lived experience when I like want to self edit or pull back or go, oh no, is is the reason why we got a rejection because it's too gay. She'll be like, I will, I will fight for you. I will fight anybody who says it's, and it's just really nice to have that. Um, you know, and I hadn't really anticipated needing that, but it's become one of the most, you know, not one of the most, because obviously like business negotiation things are kind of really important because at least I'm getting paid, but it's really important. It's really important on an emotional and a creative level to know that I have that support.   Kaelyn:30:11   You know, I think we like to go like, oh well the personal stuff really shouldn't matter. But like it does sometimes and if it's just like, you know, one more thing that makes you more comfortable working with someone that's really important. Caitlin:30:24   Yeah. Especially if you write fiction that is very emotionally based. Kaelyn:30:28   Yes. Caitlin:30:29   Your personal life is gonna be very important to your art. So then you need someone who also understands your personal life so they can see what you're trying to do with your art. Kaelyn:30:36   Yeah. It sounds like you guys have like a fantastic relationship. So what are your, what are your interactions like what do you, how often do you talk and how often do you get in touch for like, I have this problem or I'm worried about this because a lot of authors and agency, agents, excuse me, have different styles of communication. So do you find you're more comfortable being in constant touch or do you just go by what works best for both of you? Caitlin:31:04   I probably bother her more than I technically need to. We actually, we have, um, the way we have the arrangement we've come to is that if I'm asking a question that is substantial that we may need to be able to find the answer to later, it goes by email because email is searchable and sortable. But we also text and that's usually for really quick questions. Um, or just touching basis friends or, you know, we're, I, I wouldn't say that we're friend, friend friends, but we are friendly enough that we check in on each other about personal stuff as well as business stuff. Um, and we try and keep the two streams separate. Um, and like on Instagram, I don't ask her business questions. I just get very excited about the cool pictures that she posts. And so we try and keep some, some pretty formal divisions. Caitlin:31:54   Like I don't want to be, um, impinging on her very scarce personal time if I don't have to. Um, but I also am a bit of an anxious person and so sometimes I will spiral out. I'll need to be like, can you please talk me off the ledge? Because I'm clearly having a problem and I know that it's stupid, but I can't get out of it on my own. And she is very good about stepping in and being like, it's fine and this is why it's fine and it's going to be OK. Um, and, and, and so there's parts where even over two years in, we're still learning. I'm definitely still learning about what is good to bring to her versus what I should probably take care of on my own. And there's times where it goes the other way where I decided that, oh, this is something that I shouldn't bother her with. And it turns out that it's something that she really would have liked to know about two or three weeks ago by the time she ends up finding out. Kaelyn:32:48   Um, I always wonder with agents, and you know, I, I edit books for Parvus as well and um, a lot of our authors don't have agents, so I'm kind of like their point person on a lot of things and it's like there should be a manual that's like, okay, besides all of this, there's gonna be a lot of emotional support involved and - Caitlin:33:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:07   How you feel about people texting you, having panic attacks over things that are not a big deal. Can you manage that? Caitlin:33:15   Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and I've, I've apologized to her on many occasions and usually what she does, what she tells me is basically this is part of the job. Like this is a thing that happens. It's a very, it's a very stressful business and there's a lot that's out of your direct control and a lot of it's outside of what you can even see going on at any given time. And so it's really easy to tell yourself stories that are completely wrong and not realize that they're wrong because you can't fact check them. Kaelyn:33:43   Well, I always tell, you know, if I have authors or someone getting in touch with me and they're worried about something and they go, oh, sorry, this is so silly. It's like, no, if you're worked up about it and you're concerned, it's not silly. So we'll figure it out. Caitlin:33:56   I mean, best case scenario is there is a simple answer and you're like, oh, and now it's resolved and now you don't feel that way anymore. Kaelyn:34:02   I feel better Caitlin:34:02   Right. And you feel silly at that point. But also at the same time, look, it was an easy problem to resolve and it's not actually something you need to continue being afraid of. So that's great. Yeah. Kaelyn:34:10   So, um, we're asking everyone, what tips do you have or suggestions or misconceptions about looking for an agent in getting an agent? What do you wish people knew? Caitlin:34:19   This is, it's a big question. Um, but a couple of things that come to mind. The first is to be really thoughtful about who you're querying about if you'd actually want to work with them. Um, and it's because it obviously you feel when you're querying and it's a very real feeling that you are putting everything on the line. And if this doesn't work out, you're setback another year or another two years, whatever else. So it's very scary and it's very like there's, there's a scarcity of options. So you want to maximize the potential for someone saying yes, but at the same time, you really do want someone who wants to represent your work in the way you want it to be represented. Um, and so for instance, when I was querying the Luminous Dead, uh, I had actually reworked it at one point in its revisions as YA because a very good friend of mine said that the themes are there. Caitlin:35:15   Even though I wrote it, I had written it as an adult novel originally and it ended up being published as an adult novel. There was a period where she was like, you know, the themes are there, you could make it, YA has more opportunities for sales, there are more editors and there's more money involved. So consider it. And as a friend who, who writes both YA and adult, so I worked, reworked it as YA and I was querying it as YA, but I didn't really want it to be YA. I just thought I should do that as a business move. And it turns out I got a lot of rejections and probably because I was casting it as YA, because I think that comes through the, you know, if you're, if you're trying to sell a book as something that it's not or that you don't want it to be, you're going to run into some problems. Caitlin:35:55   Um, I was very lucky that when Caitlin and I were originally talking, I said, so how would you feel if we made it an adult and terrified that she would say no because she had, she had taken me on as a YA author and she was like, Oh yeah, it could work either way. What do you want to do here? Or here are the actual considerations on both ends. But in the end it's what you want the piece to be, which was great. Um, but I think I wasted a lot of time and energy querying YA agents who pr- who are fantastic agents, but who would have ever been a good fit for my work in the end. And then I got rejections that were upsetting that I didn't need to get. So definitely like really cultivating that list, even though it makes it feel like you're, you're giving up options and chances is a really great place, is a really good skill to learn? Caitlin:36:43   And it won't be easy and it will be comfortable, but it's, it's worth it. And the other thing that comes to mind is actually more about the query letter itself and a lot of people treat it as just a hurdle that you have to do in order to get past this phase. Kaelyn:36:56   We talk about the same thing where it's like everyone thinks about it as, oh, I just have to, it's just something I've got to do. Caitlin:37:04   It's busy work. It's like it's like a homework assignment, but it turns out you're going to use it, that skill a lot. Kaelyn:37:09   Yes. Caitlin:37:09   That skill set is going to be very important for writing your base pitches. I have found that actually if I write a fake query letter at about the halfway point of a first draft, I can usually find the problems in the first draft by trying to articulate it as a query letter. So I use it as a diagnostic tool almost - Kaelyn:37:24   And that's fantastic. Caitlin:37:25   - and it's a really tricky skill to learn. It's, it will not come naturally, especially if you're writing the query letter after you've done like five rounds of revisions and you know your book forwards and back because you're gonna want to show all the work that you did. But if you can learn how to distill it down like that, it ends up becoming a skill. Like writing a good query letter isn't just to get an agent's attention so they'll read the full. That is part of what it does, but it also teaches them that you can do some of the preliminary work for pitching the book to editors, which makes their lives a little bit easier. And it also proves to you, I'll come with me with a good pitch. Yes, it proves that you know how at least a little bit of how to market your own work, which is always great because you're going to be in situations where you're talking to people you know, maybe face to face where your agent is not there. Caitlin:38:10   For the record, Luminous Dead, so the back cover copy is not my query that got my agent, but it is the query that I wrote for funsies. After we'd done some major revisions and I went, Huh, I wonder if I could write a better query letter now I wrote it, we got the back cover copy from the editor, which was based off of my original query letter, which then became part of my agent's pitch, which became part of the back cover copy. And I went, you know, we can do better. Hey I have this thing right here for you. And now the back cover copy, it's not 100% that obviously because I am not a marketing person and there are certain things that I missed or that I put in the didn't matter. But it is substantially influenced by that. So you know, if you've ever read this, and I'm sure there are lots of publishers who really don't care what the author wants to put on the back cover, but if you've ever like read a back cover copy and gone, hmm, that's not how I would've written it. Guess what? You can learn that skill. Caitlin:39:01   And it will help you in getting an agent in fixing your own work at times and in working with your editor. Kaelyn:39:08   Well thanks so much for talking to us. Tell people where they can find you. Caitlin:39:12   Yeah, so um, I am mainly on Twitter @see_starling. It's a pun, it's a very silly pun. And um, my website is CaitlinStarling.com that has filings that has a couple of sneak peeks of things that I am working on that I will hopefully one day find a home for. It also has those pictures from the body parts design project over in New York. Kaelyn:39:34   Yeah, that's very cool. All right, well thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us. Caitlin:39:39   Absolutely. Rekka:39:40   Thanks everyone for joining us for another episode of we make books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general, remember you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast, same for Instagram or WMB cast.com if you find value in the content that we provide, we would really appreciate your support@patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful. Or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course, you can always retweet our episodes on Twitter. Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! It’s Week Two of Submissions September and we are talking about query letters!  What are they? What purpose do they serve?  Why are they so freaking hard to write??  Your query letter is an incredibly important part of your submission and Rekka and Kaelyn take a dive into what makes a good QL, so dos and don’ts, and some insight into Rekka’s work on her own query letter. If you missed last week’s episode, this month Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re up to seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the  month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and has anyone else watched “Carnival Row” yet? Because we have some Thoughts and need someone to talk to about them. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. Rekka:00:06   I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:09   And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for purpose press. And this is week two of Submissions September. Rekka:00:15   It's a big month for us. Kaelyn:00:17   It's a busy month for us. Rekka:00:18   Well it was busy month was last month when you were editing all these episodes together. Kaelyn:00:21   Yeah, yeah, that's true. We're going to have a break then. But uh, yeah. So this week we're talking about query letters. Um, what are they, what are their purpose? Rekka:00:31   Why are they so scary? Kaelyn:00:32   Why are they so hard to write? Rekka:00:35   Um, and there's a little bonus in there. Kaelyn:00:37   Oh yes. And ah, we get to hear uh, we get to hear something special from Rekka with her own experience with this. So, you know, make sure you get all the way to the end of the episode for that. Um, this was, you know, when we were kind of sitting down mapping out, okay, um, what we're gonna do for this. Um, I very adamantly wanted to do an episode that was just about query letters because I think they're a frequently, I won't say overlooked but under emphasized tool. Rekka:01:05   Until it's too late. Kaelyn:01:06   Exactly. Rekka:01:07   So suddenly you're panicking about your query letter because you have to include one and what goes in it and how good does it have to be. And, um, you, should I write it from the first person perspective of my main character or short - Kaelyn:01:22   Wait, wait, spoiler alert. Don't do that. Rekka:01:24   Or should I write it in pig Latin or should I, you know, write it backward? Like should I write it as a poem so that it stands out in the inbox? Kaelyn:01:35   I got one of those. Rekka:01:36   I believe you. Yeah. Okay. Kaelyn:01:38   Um, so yeah, we go over, you know, some of the, like the origin story, if you will, of these, the purpose of them and um, what, what yours should have and what you should be planning for and what to do with it. So, um, I think it's a very important thing to take, the appropriate amount of time to work on. So we definitely, you know, we wanted to talk about that and um, oh boy did we [laughs] so, um, that's the episode. Uh, again, you know we're, this is episode two of it's looking to be five and for Submissions September, we're rolling right through them. Rekka:02:13   Yup. Kaelyn:02:14   So we'll be back next week. Rekka:02:16   You're getting one a week through September and then we're going to back off again. Kaelyn:02:19   Then we're going to take a nap for a while. Rekka:02:22   Easily, easily a month. Kaelyn:02:23   And um, you know, maybe around December we'll, we'll poke our heads up out of the sand again. Um, so anyway, uh, enjoy the episode everyone and we'll catch you next week Rekka:02:31   Yeah, enjoy the episode Speaker 2:       02:35   [music] Speaker 3:       02:40   [music] Rekka:02:49   Are you going to be able to have a full conversation? Are you going to just sort of slip into a nap? Kaelyn:02:54   Yeah, no, it's a barbecue coma, specifically mac and cheese coma. That was, you know - Rekka:03:00   Free Mac and cheese coma. Kaelyn:03:01   That's fine. I really want to go look at the order ticket and see like what was on their first verse they actually gave us because I'm convinced we walked away with at least part of someone else's meal. Rekka:03:13   I mean, part of the meal we ordered that they canceled that, then we - Kaelyn:03:16   Yeah, no, I mean they definitely handed it, handed us all of it. It's not like we picked up someone else's stuff and walked away with it. Rekka:03:23   No. And I think the way the bags were spread out, some, like some of all of our order wasn't across two different bags. Kaelyn:03:30   Who knows. Yeah, we're recording already? Rekka:03:33   Yeah, of course. Kaelyn:03:33   Yeah, of course we are. Hey everyone episode or, it's sorry, Submissions September week two. Rekka:03:41   Is it? Kaelyn:03:41   Yeah. Rekka:03:42   So Gosh, time is funny that way. Kaelyn:03:45   Yeah. No, week two. Rekka:03:46   The problem is I was focused on the fact that this was episode 13. So to me, yeah. Kaelyn:03:52   No, those numbers, they're tricky. Rekka:03:53   13 doesn't match because week two is the 10th. I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. Kaelyn:03:58   And you know, episode two, but week thirteen, you know, it's, it's tricky. Uh, so - Rekka:04:05   Week two, episode 13, you just said it backwards. Now I am confused. Kaelyn:04:09   See I was, I was seeing if you'd catch that there. That was good. Good. Looking at Rekka. Rekka:04:14   I pay attention. Kaelyn:04:16   Uh, so what are we talking about today? Rekka:04:18   Query letters. Kaelyn:04:21   Query letters, these - Rekka:04:22   Do it! Kaelyn:04:22   The dreaded query letter. Rekka:04:24   I don't know why they're so dreaded. Kaelyn:04:25   They're hard. Rekka:04:26   But they're the last thing you have to do before you can send it to somebody. Kaelyn:04:29   But they're the last thing you have to do before you can send it to somebody. Rekka:04:32   And if you get it wrong, they'll laugh at you. Kaelyn:04:35   It's, query letters are hard. Um, it's, you're summarizing your entire book plus a little bit about yourself in about 400 words. That's hard. Rekka:04:49   Four hundred sounds a little long. Kaelyn:04:50   Yeah. Probably 300, one page, you know, whatever you can get on that and maybe use a really small font. So, yeah, today we're talking about query letters, which is the next vital component of getting your submission ready. Rekka:05:05   By the way, don't use a really small font. Kaelyn:05:07   Don't use a really small font. Rekka:05:08   That was not good advice because - Kaelyn:05:09   That was not an endorsement to that. Um, yeah. So we're talking about query letters today and what they are, what they're used for, why you need one. Yeah. Um, so Rekka I mean, you've, you've written them. Rekka:05:24   I have um mostly, I have written, uh, one that was submitted, which became Flotsam. Kaelyn:05:31   Yes. Rekka:05:32   And there were nine different versions of the Flotsam query letter of which I chose one. Kaelyn:05:36   And you don't understand why this is so scary to people? Rekka:05:40   What do you mean? You think I wrote nine cause I was nervous? Kaelyn:05:43   No, but because it's hard because you wrote nine different. Rekka:05:46   Yeah, no, no. I approached them in different ways. Like this one was character forward. This one was fine and that's great. Yeah. It was just like when I wrote them, I was not planning to submit. We've talked the past about how Flotsam was supposed to be self published. So at this point I was doing this for the practice of writing a query letter so that someday I would be able to write good marketing copy. Kaelyn:06:08   Okay. Rekka:06:08   And if you think about it in that terms, that's kind of what it is. Well, it's like you're marketing it to a very specific audience. Kaelyn:06:14   I always joke that like the turnabout here is for the editors when they have to do cover copies. Rekka:06:19   Yes. And that's where we get in our revenge. Kaelyn:06:22   Yeah. That's, that's the revenge Rekka:06:24   Karma. All right. You sell it, you're so good at this. Kaelyn:06:27   Fine. You think, can you do it? Um, yeah. So query letters, uh, let's talk about why you need one and what they're used for. Rekka:06:36   You need one because they're telling you to, but like more specifically, you need to stand out in inbox. Kaelyn:06:45   So even going back a step farther than that, um, the purpose of a query letter as the name implies is you're asking a question. That question is, I either have written or I am planning to write this thing. Are you interested in it? It's a little misleading because what it's actually saying is here is why you should be interested in this. You are selling yourself and your book there. Um, originally, and I can't remember we talked about on this or on hybrid author, um, but when originally part of the purpose of query letters was you'd send them to agents in publishing houses because you couldn't send a whole manuscript. Rekka:07:28   Right. Kaelyn:07:29   Because you used to have to physically mail these things. Rekka:07:31   Yes. Kaelyn:07:32   Way Back in the dark ages. Rekka:07:33   Chonky books. Kaelyn:07:34   Yes. And, um, even more than that, you know, like if you've ever seen like typewritten pages, you don't get as many of them on there as you do using a word processor right today. So, um, that you used to send these letters saying like, Hey, I wrote this book, are you interested in it? And you'd start a correspondence based on that if you got a reply back, yes, I'm interested. Then you sent the manuscript along, um, in this day and age where digital files are uploaded really fast, really fast, and they're small little things that you can keep a whole database on and peruse at your leisure. Um, now they're kind of introductory and I don't want to say sales pitchy, but they are, Rekka:08:18   They kind of, yeah. And, and what I was saying about like trying to stand out from the inbox kind of is what it is because these days, frequently someone opens a window for querying and income the flood. And so you get hundreds of letters from authors and if it was just a, an author's name in the from field subject line query and then a file attachment, it would get pretty like I would, I mean I would personally probably quit if I didn't even have that sort of like light touch before I had to get into the manuscript. Kaelyn:08:58   Yeah. And actually that's a, that's a good point is that you query agents still. That's still the verb. Even though um really, you're, you are submitting a manuscript as well, but it's still called querying an agent. Rekka:09:09   And this is one of those things like hang up the phone. So nobody's phone hangs on the wall and so charming holdover and we aren't getting acquainted, Kaelyn:09:16   Aren't we adorable? Rekka:09:17   Yes. Kaelyn:09:17   Um, so yeah, that's, you know, that's why you write a query letter. Now it's, we're going to get into what should be in it, but it is sort of your sales pitch for your book. It is not, don't think of it as are you interested in it? Think of it as here's why you should be interested in this. Rekka:09:36   Right. Kaelyn:09:37   So why are these so freaking hard to write? Rekka:09:39   Because imposter syndrome, because nerves, because you're writing to someone you don't know well and you are putting this thing that you've put so much blood, sweat and effort into and you have one shot because you can't query the same manuscript twice. Kaelyn:09:57   It's very hard because you're trying to do two things at once. One is some tell, I won't say summarize because you should not be summarizing your book in this. Rekka:10:06   Right. Kaelyn:10:07   But you should be talking about your story. Rekka:10:09   Yeah. Kaelyn:10:10   Then you should also be talking about what the great selling points of this story are and that especially is very hard to do. Rekka:10:18   For most authors that's not anything that they've given a lot of consideration to. They've just been working on their story and doing the work, doing the work, writing it, revising it, writing it, revising it, and then when it comes time to actually tell people about it, you're unprepared completely. Even though you wrote the thing maybe more than once. Kaelyn:10:36   Yeah. And actually, in the previous episodes, we had talked a lot about your elevator pitch and uh, refining it and perfecting it in the debut authors episode. And this kind of goes along with it. Um, now obviously this will be taking place before you, you work on your elevator pitch for the book. Um, but you have to kind of quickly and effectively tell the reader about your book in a way that is going to intrigue them. And that is very hard to do. Um, you can go online and there are some really good resources and articles and ideas for how to do this in your query letters. Some major do's and don'ts. Um, we'll get into some of those once we break down. But, um, this is one instance where I'm like, hey, go online and read about things because even there are some great articles out there that will just kind of give you definitions and structure and some etiquette and what it should and should not say. Rekka:11:35   Etiquette is very helpful because it gives you the framework around, like it takes away the like, okay, so do I come off like this or should I be saying their first name? Or should I, you know, like, how do I even start this? Because this isn't like necessarily relationship where you will ever call them, you know, Mr their last name or - Kaelyn:11:59   You know, I get responses with that sometimes. It always makes me a little like, oh, I didn't know my mom was reading these [laughs]. Rekka:12:06   And it, and it is, but it's a strange, like it's a formal thing. Like you can't be too polite. Some people might say. Kaelyn:12:13   Well, and I will say one in doubt, default to maybe not overly polite, but definitely professional. Rekka:12:17   Right. And maybe there are some authors that don't even know what the difference between polite and professional is. Kaelyn:12:24   Yeah. And, you know, worst case scenario, you're overly polite and that's not gonna, that's not gonna make anyone think badly of you. Rekka:12:32   Just might chuckle a little. Kaelyn:12:34   Yes. But they're, they're certainly not going to have a bad impression of you if nothing else there is that. Um, so yeah, this is th it's not an easy thing. And like you think, I think a lot of people think like, well I'm just going to sit down and bang one of these out. Rekka:12:48   Yeah. Kaelyn:12:49   Don't do that. If you're, if you've written it in less than an hour, it's probably not something you want to send around unless you're just really, really good at these. Which if this is one of the first times you're doing it, you're probably still working some of them or at least you don't know if you're very good at them yet. Um, I mean cause I can tell you like when I write cover copy, which is kind of doing the same, same idea at least, um, I write it multiple times, walk away from it and look at it again later. Rekka:13:20   Right. Kaelyn:13:20   Cause it's a lot of ideas that you're trying to get down at once. Rekka:13:27   Yeah. You're trying to encapsulate an entire book, not just the plot. Obviously we touched on, you don't, it's not about the plot necessarily, but you're trying to encapsulate both the opening question, the hook of your book and sort of the tone of the entire thing all at once. Kaelyn:13:46   And now here's the other thing, we had talked in the last episode about preparing your submission. Oh No, wait, I'm sorry. Okay. We had talked about in the, uh, the debut author episode about how your favorite thing about the book may not be the most important thing about the book. Rekka:14:02   And that's really key to understand because the thing that you love about this book might be Hogwarts castle. You know, the selling point is the evil wizard war. Kaelyn:14:15   Um, so, you know, obviously having someone else take a look at it, especially someone that's read the book is super helpful because they can tell you if it's like, um, I mean, I liked your book and I feel like you're not saying the things that are gonna make other people want to read it. Rekka:14:33   Right. Kaelyn:14:33   So, so that said, what should be in this? Rekka:14:37   So like without getting too, too over-simplified one way to approach this might be like thinking about the over the voiceover and a movie trailer. Kaelyn:14:48   Oh yeah. Movie trailer voiceover is always a good, 'in a world - Rekka:14:52   Yeah, don't do that. Kaelyn:14:53   No, do it if that's what helps it gets you out of here, like - Rekka:14:56   Okay, for practice, play around with that. But um, don't put that in your query letter. Your final query letter should not start with "in a world where [laughs]' - Kaelyn:15:07   In a world where werewolves have gone into space and returning people they encounter into werewolves and turning aliens into werewolves and now those alien werewolves have come home. Rekka:15:19   So, um- Kaelyn:15:21   Actually can you write that? Rekka:15:22   Yeah, I'll write it. If you give me cover your cover art. Um, so I will, apparently really, really will write that . Kaelyn:15:31   [laughs] Rekka:15:34   So the trailer had 45 seconds to two minutes to completely hook you and apparently did a good job because you saw the movies. So, um, think about it in that terms. Like it might help to watch a couple trailers and not necessarily for how much they represented the movie correctly, but the kind of content that they're, they're showing you and keep in mind of course that they also can have dialogue clips and explosions where you don't necessarily get that, but you'll see sort of what I mean as far as like them actually representing the movie. Kaelyn:16:06   Yeah. So I'll just bullet point kind of four things that your query letters should do. One is introduce yourself briefly very briefly. That should just be I'm such and such. I do this and I'm really interested in this thing that I wrote. Um, I get query letters frequently that the bulk of it is someone's life story or an essay about why they wrote this. And I finished it and I'm like, oh, okay, that was great, but what am I about to read? So if you get through an entire query letter and you haven't really talked about what you're submitting - Rekka:16:45   Keep in mind if you are, if you are submitting to a publisher, this is for one book, this is not for you, the person they are, they are not going to invest in your career and necessarily like they may hope to be a big part of it, but this is not about you walking in and earning the corner office. This is about you have a title, it is a product and you want them to champion it. Kaelyn:17:11   Yeah. And so the other thing is that, you know, like obviously your publisher is at some point going to want to know about you. If they're interested in your book, they will get in touch with you and find out about you. Rekka:17:22   Chances are you've got a bit of a, an Internet trail anyway. They can find out a little bit about it., just scrape the surface. Kaelyn:17:27   If someone is potentially interested in your book, they will call you and find out about you. For now, your main thing is to get them interested in your story. Rekka:17:36   Right. Kaelyn:17:36   Um, don't, introduce yourself. It's, it's always good just to have a little bit of context, but do it very briefly. And there's not really much of a need to include a lot of personal information., Rekka:17:49   No, no. And only the pertinent stuff. Kaelyn:17:51   Yeah. Uh, so second is, um, book stats. Kinda tell us about your story. Tell us how long it is. Tell us. Uh, it's genre and, um, that's, you know, the, just, just the stats. Yeah. If you click on it, what they come up with in terms of charisma and um, defence hit points, you know, that sort of thing. The important stuff, you know. Rekka:18:14   Let the acquiring editor know whether they want to reroll exactly. Kaelyn:18:17   Um, just very, you know, I'm, I wrote, my book is called, uh, The Containment Unit. It's about 120,000 words long, and it's a science fiction novel. Rekka:18:29   Hmm. I'm interested in that. Kaelyn:18:32   That's this podcast. Rekka:18:32   Yes, I know. Kaelyn:18:37   It's, you know, and that can be one sentence that's easy. There's, you know, there's ways to finesse the sentence a little bit. It doesn't just have to be a blatant statement of that. Um, so next is tell us about your story. Depending on what your story is, there's going to be certain parts that you want to emphasize more, but you're basically going for setting main character or characters, you know, if it's a group, kind of introduce a group. If it's main character, just that, and then their problem. So you're setting this stuff up and then you're telling them, but wait, then this happened. Rekka:19:12   Yep. Kaelyn:19:13   Either they start with a problem or it gets worse or they don't have a problem and then they have one. Rekka:19:18   Right. Kaelyn:19:18   You have to explain a little bit of where the plot is going. Um, I get frustrated reading query letters where it's paragraphs about the character and it's kind of like, so what happens to them? Rekka:19:35   Yeah. Cause that's when the stories really starts to get interesting or that's when it hooks people is when that character runs up against something else. Kaelyn:19:43   Exactly. So you're kind of and, this is where I went back to, do not summarize it. You're not telling me the, you're not giving me a synopsis or a summary here. You're giving me the, there was, you know, there is an alien who's stranded alone on earth but has made a decent life for themselves and is happy here. But then all of a sudden his buddies come to get him and they realize they can conquer this planet easily. Can he save earth from his friends? Rekka:20:13   Yeah. His own people. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing you mentioned, um, was the Colin Coyle method where like the first sentence buys you the first paragraph. So your query letter buys the very. Kaelyn:20:25   First sentence? Rekka:20:26   But like the very committal act of opening that documents, you know, like that's, that's a whole extra thing. They know that, you know, as an acquiring editor, they know that when they open that document they will be faced with a wall of text. Kaelyn:20:41   While, so Rekka just brought up point number four, which is hook me. Rekka:20:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:20:45   You want to get me at the end to go, I need to know if the alien can save earth from his friends. So you want to make me open the query, the, excuse me, you want to make me open the manuscript based on the query letter. Rekka:21:01   Right. Kaelyn:21:01   The last thing is you're trying to convince me to read your manuscript. Here is why you should be interested in this. So giving away the whole thing right off the bat is, you know, it's gonna and especially if this is maybe a little bit of a harsh reality, but maybe if you're not writing the synopsis well and then you give me the whole thing and I'm going, well that doesn't sound great. Rekka:21:29   It's like maybe you wrote an amazing twist, but you just laid it all out for me so it doesn't feel that twisty. Kaelyn:21:34   Yeah. And maybe I'm not getting the correct emphasis on the plot and the high points of the. Rekka:21:40   Yeah. And, and that when you write, uh, some, uh, when you write a synopsis, all that tension, all that momentum doesn't necessarily exist the way it does in your story. So all you want to do is give them the trailer that makes them bite and say, buying the movie ticket is opening that word doc. Kaelyn:21:59   Yeah. So the other thing along the hook me line that you should be doing is, okay, you've written a great query letter. I am really, really like, I want to know does the little green alien managed to help save earth from all of his drunk friends? You know, and I opened your manuscript and let's say there's just something in the writing's good, but for instance, it's really slow, like the first few chapters, just, there's not much happening here. But from your query letter, I know what's coming. Rekka:22:31   Right. You know the 25% mark hook. Kaelyn:22:35   Yes. Basically, I know what this is building to. So instead, and this is a good example of why you need one. Because I, we do get a lot of manuscripts that just don't have query letters, which is not great because then if I'm reading, you know, like the first few chapters of your book and I'm like, there's nothing happening here and I have no context for what is going to happen later, that's gonna make me go, well this is, this is too slow. I can't do this. So that's just another argument as to why it's excellent idea to try to hook the reader into it. Um, so now you're probably going, OK, well like, so how do I do this? Rekka:23:13   Yeah. Kaelyn:23:15   There are websites and there are articles that will say like, this is the format you should have. Um, I think they're okay to use as guidelines - Rekka:23:23   If you really don't know where to start. Kaelyn:23:25   The other really good thing to keep in mind is that not every format is going to work for the best way to pitch your book. So if your, um, if yours works better with, you know, getting right into the, here's the stuff about my story and then introducing yourself at the end, do that. If you feel like it's an easier transition to say, hello, Parvus Press, my name is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then go into your story. Um, do that. It's, I won't say there is a definitive correct way to write a query letter because it's the way that you can best present your work. Rekka:23:59   Right. And so while I, you know, maybe you don't have to write nine, but play around with different formats and see which feels natural. Kaelyn:24:06   Absolutely. Actually, you just brought up a very good point of different versions because in the prepping your submissions, uh episode we had done before this, we talked about caveats. If you have a thing that it's like, listen, I know that you said you don't want Werewolf stories, but mine's about werewolves but they're in space and you said you're interested in SciFi, this is a good spot to put that in the query letter. Like I did read your submissions guidelines. Rekka:24:38   It's not that I'm completely defying them, but here's why I'm defying them. Kaelyn:24:43   Yes.And it's um, you know, it gives you a little bit of a chance to explain. Now this is not the space to write a 20 page enpassioned argument. Rekka:24:50   No, but this gives you the intro that you can begin to let her with and actually kind of like kicks open the door just a tiny bit because you're going to be more uncomfortable because you have something to approach them with. Like you already know what they're looking for or more specifically in this case, what they're not. So you are responding to them on a personal level that shows several things. One that you, you know, like you have an interesting twist on something that maybe felt a little tropey to them. Two, that you did read the submission guidelines, which is always a good look. Kaelyn:25:20   I love when people read submissions guidelines. Rekka:25:21   Three, it's like your explanation of like, but wait, hear me out. This is your personality. Kaelyn:25:26   Yeah. Rekka:25:27   So you're, you actually are packing a lot of data for this publisher into this opening volley that you are going to start with. Kaelyn:25:35   Yeah. And you actually kind of then touched on another good point with your query letter and format. The tone of your query letters should kind of match the tone of your book. If you're writing a really dark, you know, fantasy kind of upsetting setting where nothing ever good happens and you start out, this is a journey of friendship and hope, then - Rekka:25:59   There are puppies! Kaelyn:26:00   And it's the tone of your query letter, especially the part where you're pitching your story should match what is going on with the book. Rekka:26:10   Yeah. Kaelyn:26:10   Um, you know, not, it doesn't, not, not, I'm not talking about in prose and style. Rekka:26:15   Yeah, and don't write it from the first person of the main character and - Kaelyn:26:20   Point number two: Now is not the time to be cute. Yeah. Um, I understand that, you know, a lot of writers struggle to do something unique to make themselves stand out. Rekka:26:31   I think there was some bad advice floating around that you should like make your query letter differ from everybody else's query letter. But like it's not going to be, there are so many query letters that it's going to be a lot like someone else's. And if it's a lot like someone else's and it's like wincingly campy, unless your book is campy on purpose, like maybe don't. Kaelyn:26:51   A lot of them, um, a lot of them are the same but good query letters, like, you know, it's not that the query letter stood out necessarily, it's that - Rekka:27:00   It didn't get in its own way. Kaelyn:27:02   It didn't get it sewed away and that it did a good job. Rekka:27:05   Mmmhmm. I like to compare, I mean it's not quite perfect, but I like to compare it to a gallery. You go to a gallery and the walls are painted white and the walls are painted white so that the paintings and the artwork and the sculptures, et Cetera can stand out. And that's what you focus on. So if you get clever or cheeky with your language, if you decide you're going to write it in pig Latin because you think that they'll notice you like that's an extreme case. Please don't do that unless your book is about pig Latin. Um, and even then save it for like one paragraph or a p s or something. But anyway, so like just keep your language simple. The tone can match, but don't get overly emphatic with anything. Don't, don't show desperatation. I don't know what you want to call it, but like be let your language in your corner. Let itbe the gallery wall and let your ideas stand out. Not the way you phrase it. Kaelyn:28:03   Your language should be showcasing your idea. That's, that's it. You should not be having to do, you know, anything too overly clever or crazy to get an acquisition editor or an agent's attention. Rekka:28:19   Right. They'd been reading through a lot of these. If yours is simple and clean and clear and concise, that's gonna stand out on its own. Kaelyn:28:25   Yeah. It's, you know, and there's nothing wrong with writing in a very confident way. There's nothing wrong with, um, I, you know, I get, um, I get some humor novels sometimes that, um, you know, especially like fantasy kind of things. And the query letters are kind of written frequently in the same tone as the book and sometimes it works really well and sometimes it's what I would call overly sarcastic. Rekka:28:57   Ooh, okay. Kaelyn:28:58   And you'd be sup- that's something that was a weird one that I keep that pops up every now and then. I get these very like, sarcastic, almost nihilistic. Rekka:29:06   Mmmm. Kaelyn:29:06   Um, kind of tones in the query letter. Rekka:29:09   And this is coming from someone who claims to be an nihiliist. Kaelyn:29:11   I'm pretty nihilistic. Rekka:29:13   Yeah. Kaelyn:29:14   That's okay. I'm happy about it. Rekka:29:15   Yeah. So be optimistically nihilistic in your query letters. If you're going to go that way. But like, you have one chance to leave a taste in the, in the reader's mouth about what you are promising them and if it comes off as in like this entire thing is going to be like Dwight from the office. I mean Dwight needs a full cast to stand down. Yeah. So your query letters should not just be Dwight. Kaelyn:29:41   Yes, that's very true. One of the things we're going to do before we wrap up here is Rekka has very selflessly and generously agreed to read her query letter that got her signed at Parvus actually for Flotsam. Um, so if you read Flotsom, you, which you should go read Flotsam and Aalvage is now officially out for a week as of this episode launch. Um, so we want to read it because it's interesting to hear it and then you know, if you've read Flotsam compare it to what the book is. I think your query letter was a pretty accurate engaging representation, but it, but then things changed. Rekka:30:21   Right. So, so it was a good representation. Things changed later in the revision process once I was with Parvus, but I had to choose what to focus on for my query letter. So if you've read Flotsam well maybe I'll read the query letter first. So, um, good afternoon. So there's, there's a personal note at the beginning because I thought I knew who it was going to. Ironically that is not who read it. So I'm always, you know, there is a chance that you might address it to the editor and find out that was not actually the person who read it. Obviously we're not just talking about the slush pile, but someone else at Parvus higher up picked it up. Kaelyn:31:03   Yup. So not me. Rekka:31:04   I'll start with good afternoon. And then there was the personal note, um, in which case I'd like to present my first novel Flotsam for purposes consideration Talis, tries to do right by the small crew of her airship wind saver. It's not easy when your work isn't legal. You take the contracts, you can get. Her ledgers drip with expenses that she has no idea how to cover, not with the work they've been getting lately. When an anonymous client offers a small fortune to make a salvage run for some old ring. Talis accepts the contract. No questions asked. Hankirk's skills are wasted. His forefather led a revolt against the domineering gods of Peridot, but the Order of Kindness Rising who carry on that legacy only want Hankirk to symbolize their legitimacy. To prove he is more than a figurehead, he needs an ancient ring that was almost lost a time. When the Kindness council rejects his proposal, Hankirk turns elsewhere to get the ring and who better than his old girlfriend turned criminal Talis to snatch it up for him. Talis puts what little cash she has left into the salvage operation in banks on the big payday, which works until the anonymous client turns out to be Hankirk, her instincts tell her to keep the ring as far away from him as possible. The smart thing to do would be to drop the ring overboard again, but she still needs to get paid. Written under the pen name. RJ. Theodore, Flotsam is an action packed ensambal space pop opera of 104,658 words containing creaking, airships, deadly magic and powerful aliens. There is far more room for additional adventures set in these unique world. Thank you for your consideration. Kaelyn:32:34   Okay, so right off the bat, 104,000 words. Rekka:32:39   Yeah. Kaelyn:32:39   That, how many did this book end up being? Rekka:32:41   118,000. Kaelyn:32:42   Okay. Not as much as I thought you added. Rekka:32:47   Inflation came with Salvage. Kaelyn:32:49   Right. Yes. Yeah. Rekka:32:50   No. That's where the inflation rates really skyrocketed. Kaelyn:32:52   Not as, not as much as I thought you added, but definitely not nothing. Rekka:32:56   Right. So - Kaelyn:32:56   For those who have a read Flotsam, you'll know that that's not an incorrect representation of the book, but - Rekka:33:06   Some names changed. Kaelyn:33:06   Some names changed. Rekka:33:08   The length changed. Kaelyn:33:09   The length changed and some of the focus of what you'd maybe emphasize if you were resubmitting this now would have changed. Rekka:33:19   Well see, hat's the thing is there are very small details and things that came out of like planning the sequel and the, and the third book in the trilogy, um, that, I might want to foreshadow a little bit in this, but this was pretty close to the version that was done. We just expanded certain ideas and there were certain things that I was asked to like, can you go back through and seed some of this or this scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe we can cut it and I go, oh no, there's like something really key happening there. Let me work on that scene. And then that scene got a little longer and stuff like that. But the, um, the things that were emphasized in this, you might not emphasize if you were thinking back on the book, like there's almost no mention of the crew. Kaelyn:34:05   Well actually, so that's what I was about to ask you. So if he were querying Flotsam as it ended up being published, what changes would you make to this query letter? Rekka:34:15   But that's what I was trying to say is that this was one of nine and there was a version or two that included stuff about the crew. There was a stuff that included, um, mention of the character Maron who comes in late in the first book. You know, there's, um, more mention of the aliens. You know, there, there were different versions and this one was the most character focused and had the most punch to it. So it was not so much that I needed to when I was writing this broadcast specific details and make the perfect encapsulation of what to expect in this book. It was make this book sound appealing and relatable and get somebody to open this. Kaelyn:34:58   Yes. And I think that query letter did an excellent job of that. Rekka:35:02   Thank you. So yeah, it doesn't - Kaelyn:35:04   Because I mean back cover copy. Rekka:35:06   Yeah. Yes. Um, I'm talking to the easy crowd, but so the back cover copy of the book ended up being far more focused on the overwhelming odds against this crew than it did on Hankirk versus Talis. Kaelyn:35:21   Now something else that's interesting, yhat is not in that query letter at all is Peridot. Rekka:35:28   Right. Kaelyn:35:29   And the setting. Rekka:35:30   So that is, and this goes back to what we were saying, like the thing that like wows you the most about your own story may not be right for the query letter. Kaelyn:35:39   Because one of the things that I love most about Flotsam is the setting of it. Rekka:35:44   I love building it . Kaelyn:35:45   Yeah and Peridot and this idea of these, the cataclysm that broke apart the planet and it's now the chunks are being held together and there's just garbage everywhere. Rekka:35:56   Everywhere underneath. Kaelyn:35:56   Everywhere underneath. Rekka:35:57   And you don't get that from the query letter. But that's hard to explain and still have room to get into characters and plot. Kaelyn:36:06   And this where we're getting to with why these are so hard to write because you may have to sacrifice important elements for more important elements. Rekka:36:14   Or for more relatable elements. I guess like something in order to draw someone in you have to make them care. And in order to make them care, you have to make it understandable what's going on. So for me to say that 75 generations ago, the planet's gods like broke the whole planet in a quest for extra power is neat. But now I've just wasted half of my query letter and I haven't even gotten to what happens in the book. Kaelyn:36:38   And that's the thing with um, a query letters is real estate. Rekka:36:43   Yeah. Kaelyn:36:43   You have to think of it as, I only have so much space. What can I fit in here elegantly? It's anattrition factor. You have to like, you know, I know whenever I cover copy and um, I think a good method for doing query letters, even things like when I do a right announcements, I bullet point, I get a sheet of paper and I actually sit there and write this out in a bullet point. Things that they want the reader to know. And then I go through and I put them in the order of what I think is most important and that's kind of going to give you, you know, and then you'll figure out how to tie them together. Okay. I can move this up. If I bring it to here and get instead of three sentences, I can do that in two and I know it sounds so stupid and so like, Oh, you're just fiddling with sentences. You're going to have to do that. If you think that you're not going to be going, okay, wait, if I change these five words, I can use three instead. Yeah, it's the minuteness. Rekka:37:43   So obviously that's just one example of a query letter and your query letter, it might not sound anything like that. You might lead with your name because you don't have the personal note to put at the top of the letter. You might have more to say about one character and not so many secondary characters to introduce in the query letter and don't. When I say more to say about one character, I don't mean go on at length. I just mean, you know. Instead of me going character one, one paragraph character to a second paragraph, boom, here's how they fell together. It might be, here's what character one wants, here's what character one is against in the world. And the boom is how does that character going to, how do they plan? Because you don't want to give away how they succeed or fail, but you do want to say like, okay, here's what they're after and here's what's going to happen. Here's their big plan. Kaelyn:38:31   Yeah. You gotta you definitely have to figure out like that balance in there. But um actually Rekka again brought up another point. Rekka:38:38   I'm so good at this. Kaelyn:38:39   No, you do because it just, it makes me think of and remember things. Um, you know, the personal note in the beginning - Rekka:38:45   Is optional. Kaelyn:38:47   Well, if you're submitting to someone, like let's say, you know, you ran into me at the nebulas and I gave you my card and said, yeah, you know, you should, you know, I'd love to read that. Putting a little note in the beginning, like reminding me like, Hey, Kaelyn, I'm so, and so we met at the Nebulas, you know, my book is this. That's a, this is a good spot to do that. Rekka:39:04   Yeah. Kaelyn:39:04   Um, you know, if it's an agent that also, you know, invited you to query with them directly. Rekka:39:09   But if no one did, don't put it in. Kaelyn:39:11   Don't put that in. Rekka:39:12   Obviously start this relationship off very professionally with honesty. Kaelyn:39:17   And so I'm going to end this with, with one thing me and Rekka and I were talking about when we were getting barbecue today, um, that I was kind of thinking like, uh, this might've been a good thing to put in the prepping your submissions thing. But I'll start out with the query letters because it's kinda, I don't want to see your fan art of this. Um, I don't, this should be just your query letter in your manuscript. Rekka:39:44   No supplemental materials. Kaelyn:39:46   If you drew some things for it, if you did some, you know, maybe a map, but that should be included with your manuscript, if it's relevant. Rekka:39:57   Not necessarily like here's, here's how I'd suggest handling this. By now I hope you have an author website. So if you have an area that's got your artwork and you have an area that has a map and you say like, this is from my upcoming project, which I have currently titled Blah, it's on submission or it's, I'm querying it right now. Um, and so hopefully, you know, like you don't, you don't want to give away the manuscript on your website, but you can put the artwork because it's probably not going to be the final artwork. Kaelyn:40:28   Yeah. Um, as a good rule of thumb and not including art work, um, you know, especially cover art because we've talked about this a little bit before and we will do a whole episode on this in the future. You don't really get any say in your cover art. So if you're sending me anything, it's just kind of like you, when you talk about like impressions, that's not a good place to start. Rekka:40:50   Yeah. If you're not a professional professional cover artist or illustrator, there's a very good chance that you're actually going to sour the impression of your manuscript with your - and okay. I'm using the word amateur, but I mean it in its literal sense which is - Kaelyn:41:06   You're not professional. Rekka:41:08   You're, people, amateur comes from doing it for the love of it. Kaelyn:41:11   Yeah. Rekka:41:11   That's where the word comes from. That's what I mean. But if this is not something you are trained to do, this is not something you do professionally where the illustrations you create end up on book covers. There's probably a nuance to book covers that you are missing so it does not necessarily help you. I might even hurt you to include materials for a published book that you are not asked for in the submissions guidelines. So submissions guidelines is probably going to ask you for your mind manuscript and it's probably going to ask you for a query letter and it's probably not going to say, and any artwork you've drawn from your story. Kaelyn:41:47   And look ,it's great that like you're very excited and invested in it. Rekka:41:50   Like I said, put it on your website. Kaelyn:41:51   You can put it on your website - Rekka:41:53   The publisher, if they're interested, they'll check out your website. Kaelyn:41:55   Yes. Oh definitely. That's one of the first things. Rekka:41:57   Yeah, Kaelyn:41:58   I always do, but like it's, I'm not saying this to be harsh or to dampen the excitement that you have for your book in your characters. It's just one of those things where like we don't need this and this isn't, this isn't a value add yet and this isn't, this isn't the time to put this in there. I would go so far as to say it's not appropriate to put it in there because that's not what we're asking for. I don't your your ability to draw or depict your characters or the world is not going to have any bearing on the decision I make about your book. That's not making me go, oh, this is better because of this. Rekka:42:39   However, it might make Kaelyn say, oh, they're going to want to use their artwork in the book. Kaelyn:42:45   Well it's gonna make me wonder if this is going to be a fight. Rekka:42:47   Yeah. Right. And that goes back to the whole like how easy is it going to be to work with you that we were talking about in the submissions episode. Kaelyn:42:54   Every little thing you do or don't do in this process is an indicator of what it will be like to work with you. So, Rekka:43:04   Be cool. Kaelyn:43:05   Yeah. Rekka:43:05   Just send in the manuscript, send in a nice query. Kaelyn:43:07   Be cool and follow directions. That's, I mean that's the best advice I can give you if you are concerned or if you're unsure about something default to professional. Rekka:43:17   Right. Always. Kaelyn:43:19   And you know, so that's, that's the guidelines that I have for query letters. I know I'm making it sound scary. I won't say it's not hard, but it's not scary. Rekka:43:31   Right. Kaelyn:43:32   Um, it is difficult. So don't go into it thinking that it's going to be easy, Rekka:43:37   Right. But look at it as a challenge because this is a skill you were going to develop as a result of doing this. So just like, you know, learning how to write better, how to self edit, you know, for an easy pass. There's lots of tips on that online. There are lots of tips on how to write query letters online and you can go and see some examples, see some definite what not to do is out there. And it's a skill that it behooves you, even if for some reason you only have to write one query letter in your life, it's a good thing to practice. Kaelyn:44:11   Oh definitely. Rekka:44:11   So see it as a challenge. You know, like, you know, use me as an example. I wrote nine and I got to pick my favorite one. It's way different than trying to want wrtie one perfect one. Kaelyn:44:22   Yes. Rekka:44:22   And so just like, you know, in your practice overshoot so that then you can like back down and take a look and like this, okay, this is, this one's working and I can tell this one's working versus this one because of this. And then you might end up writing a 10th one. That's the one you actually use. But you, you're building a skillset. Kaelyn:44:41   Yup. So, um, that's the query letters episode. See that wasn't so bad. We got through it. Rekka:44:45   We got through it. You can get through it. Kaelyn:44:46   You can get through it. Um, so next week there's going to be our two parter. Rekka:44:51   Right. Kaelyn:44:52   We're doing a Tuesday and Wednesday release and it's all about agents. Um, we're going to talk to you some authors, about - Rekka:45:00   Who have agents. Kaelyn:45:00   Who have agents, and then we're going to talk to an actual agent, real life, who breathing agents, who has some authors. Rekka:45:07   As it turns out. Kaelyn:45:08   As it turns out. And um, you know, ask them some questions on both ends, about, you know, how you got to your agent or agents, how you pick your authors. Uh, so I'm excited for that one because I think that's, that's a thing a lot, that's a big question a lot of people have, Rekka:45:25   Right, well, it's like who's on the other end of this query letter. Kaelyn:45:28   Who is this mythical creature, this literary agent? Rekka:45:31   Right. And literary agent that sounds very like diplomatic and like maybe. Kaelyn:45:36   They are diplomatic - Rekka:45:38   And they are an ambassador. So, but, um, yeah, so we're going to get a little taste of actual, you know, just like we shared my query letter, we're going to share some personal stories about, you know, not too personal, but like, you know, individual stories of successful agent landings. Y. Kaelyn:45:54   eah. So, um, we're still open to and willing to be taking any additional questions of, for things that were not covered in this, you know, if we, like we said, if we get enough, we'll do a, a, a sixth episode this month. Rekka:46:06   It might be October 1st. Kaelyn:46:09   Yeah. You know, with just things that we talked about that anyone listening might want to hear more about. So you know, as, as usual, if you have questions, you have comments, hit us up on the a, the socials. Rekka:46:20   Socials, @WMBcast almost everywhere where we exist, patreon.com/WMBcast. If you are finding a lot of value in these episodes and especially the submission September, we'd love your support and we can't wait to share some bonus content with you over there. But yes, find us on Twitter and Instagram at WMB cast and you can send us a direct message on Twitter if you have questions that you want to be anonymous. If you don't need an animosity no, that's not the right word. Kaelyn:46:48   Anonymity. Rekka:46:52   Anonymiminy? Kaelyn:46:52   Annonnumititity Rekka:46:52   If you don't care if people read your questions, Kaelyn:46:54   That one! [laughs] Rekka:46:54   You can directly reply to the tweet about the, the episode in question. So come find us and come chat. Kaelyn:47:02   Yeah, if you message us in, you want to be anonymous, just, you know, drop a say like, Hey, I just want to be anonymous. Rekka:47:07   I'm blushing as I ask, but yeah, that's fine. We can honor that. Kaelyn:47:10   No, I mean, we'd like, there's no like wrong questions here. There's nothing that you can send us that we're going to go, they don't even know that. Rekka:47:18   Right. So, um, yeah, we'd love to hear from everyone and we hope you're enjoying this. Kaelyn:47:23   Definitely. Rekka:47:24   So let us know if you're finding a good value in these. And if you are, we'd always appreciate a rating and review on your podcast app. Kaelyn:47:32   Yes. So, uh, we'll be back next week with more, with the agents. Rekka:47:36   See you then guys.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This is a big day, not only is it the first week of Submissions September, but we have something much more important happening: Today is the release of next novel, Rekka’s Peridot Shift Trilogy, ‘SALVAGE’! It’s an amazing book and we’d love for you to check it out. On the WMB side of things, this is the first week of Submissions September!  Rekka and Kaelyn are bringing you six, (6!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome episodes lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the  month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any words of encouragement or congratulations you want to send Rekka’s way. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between, and also the first week of Submissions September. Rekka:00:09   Yes, yes, and also. Kaelyn:00:11   But wait, there's more, there's more. It is also Book Day for Rekka Jay! Rekka:00:17   Well, RJ, Theodore, Kaelyn:00:19   RJ Theodore. Rekka:00:19   Wherever she is. Kaelyn:00:20   Wherever she is. RJ Theodore, author of Salvage the second book of the Peridot Trilogy from Parvus Press, released today. Um, so yeah, big day for Rekka. Very exciting. How you feeling? Rekka:00:31   I'm feeling oddly calm about, Kaelyn:00:33   Well, that's because we're recording this before it's actually happening. Rekka:00:36   Yeah. That's the truth. Kaelyn:00:37   It's still, it's still, it's still happening. Rekka:00:40   It's still coming up. Yeah. Gosh, yeah. Now, now you're getting me nervous. Kaelyn:00:44   And so, uh, yeah. So today, today's records book day, very exciting. Rekka:00:47   So if you are listening to this live or otherwise, you can go find yourself a copy of Salvage, um, and if you don't have the money to buy a book, you can request it from your local library, which also would be very - Kaelyn:01:00   That would be fantastic. Um, also today, you know, maybe you could show Rekka a little love, tweet her some, uh, some congratulations, some support. Um, you know, if you listened to the previous episode as, you heard that uh book launch days are stressful. Rekka:01:16   Stressful, a little weird. Kaelyn:01:17   Anticlimactic, yeah. Rekka:01:19   A little quiet, I work from home, so it's just like me alone in my office and nobody's blowing birthday noisemakers or anything. Kaelyn:01:27   Well, now, guess what we're going to do. So, yeah. Anyway, we're, we're really excited for Rekka's book launch and um, we're also super excited for Submissions September. I'm real, I'm giddy excited about this. Rekka:01:41   Kaelyn may be slightly more excited than I am. Kaelyn:01:43   Um, yes. So, you know, we've been a teasing slash threatening this for awhile. Um, so we're doing four episodes and actually it's going to be five episodes, it looks like. Yeah. Rekka:01:54   At least. Kaelyn:01:54   In September. Um, so this is our schedule this week, um, you can see from the title of the episode, we're talking about preparing your submission. Um, we're gonna talk a little bit about getting your submission ready and then actually submitting, which is a lot of me ranting. Rekka:02:10   There is a launch sequence. Please adhere to it for everyone's safety. Kaelyn:02:13   Yeah, which is a lot of me ranting about submissions, guidelines. So, you know, just a, just a warning, get ready for that. Um, next week, September 10th, we're going to be talking about query letters, uh, their function, how important they are, how to some tips for writing them and what they should be doing. Rekka:02:31   Yep. And also, you know, we, we talk about getting your stuff ready for submission in this episode. It doesn't mean yeet it. Kaelyn:02:40   Yeah, sure. Rekka:02:40   After this episode, keep listening. Kaelyn:02:42   Keep listening. Rekka:02:42   We've got more good stuff for you, the rest of the month. Kaelyn:02:44   September 17th is agent's week. We're going to be doing two episodes of. Rekka:02:50   Right. And that's, that's the one that's like, oh, okay. So one a week, but also a fifth one. So we've got a lot of great people who volunteered to come on and give us some of their personal experiences, including an agent. Um, maybe, you know, like if we have more than one at that, after we've recorded this, then we'll include more than one. But, um, so we're going to split that up into an episode up from the agent side. And one from the author side. Kaelyn:03:15   Yes. So, um, I know that's something we're, we're really excited for that because that's something that a lot of people, um, are in the dark about. Rekka:03:22   Yeah. And it's the big scary part because that's like quote gatekeeping. Kaelyn:03:26   Yes. Rekka:03:27   So this is the part where people start to get very nervous. This is the judgment before people even read your book thing. Kaelyn:03:33   Yes. So then finally, September 24th, we're going to be doing an episode about what's going on on the other side of things where me, for instance, an acquisitions editor. What I'm doing when I'm getting submissions, what I'm considering, how I'm reading things, how I'm responding to them, et cetera. Um, so we still have some time for if you have a few questions for now. Rekka:03:58   Like if you're listening now we can probably get your question in at the end of the month. Kaelyn:04:02   Yes. So we were talking about, you know, potential six episode of if we have a bunch of questions doing an doing kind of a wrap up episode, um, you know, if there's any topics that people were particularly interested in or things they wanted to engage in more, um, you know - Rekka:04:18   Or if we have, we muddied the waters for some reason. Kaelyn:04:21   Yeah. Or if you're very confused. And, um, so, uh, you know, if we have enough we'll probably maybe do something with that. Rekka:04:30   Yeah. Kaelyn:04:30   In the end of the month. So we're really excited for this. I um- Rekka:04:36   She smiling's it's just like teeth all over the place here. Kaelyn:04:39   Yeah. We were talking about, you know, um, but we do organize shows ahead of time and you know, plan out what we're going to say. And we were kind of mapping out for the next couple of months, um, what we're going to talk about. And there were a lot of topics related to submissions and the more we looked at it, we were like, maybe we should break these instead of breaking these up. We should put them all together. And then it's like, okay, well we've got about three or four episodes of material here, but then doing them every other week is kind of - Rekka:05:10   It's like months and months of just one topic. Kaelyn:05:12   Yeah. And it's also sort of disrupting the flow. So we thought that this would be good, you know, for four topics, four weeks submission, September. And I'm that way it's kinda taking you through a process and hitting different points of things that are going to happen. So, um, we're really excited to do this. We hope it's going to be entertaining and informative as always. And Yeah. Rekka:05:37   And so here we go. Kaelyn:05:38   Uh, hope you enjoy the episode, everyone and, and the rest of Submissions September and we'll see you next week. Rekka:05:45   Yes. Kaelyn:05:57   [inaudible] Kaelyn:05:58   Rekka first episode, Submissions September. Rekka:06:00   Yes. Kaelyn:06:01   This is very exciting. Rekka:06:02   It's, I'm a little distracted again today though. Kaelyn:06:04   Is something happening? Rekka:06:08   She forgot me. Kaelyn:06:09   I never forget you! Guys Rekka's book comes out today. Rekka:06:12   Yes. Kaelyn:06:13   Book Two of the Peridot Shift trilogy. Salvage. Rekka:06:17   Salvage came out today and so it's my book birthday. It's a big day. It's also the first day of Submissions September. Kaelyn:06:24   Yeah. But real quick, let's go back to you. So if you're listening to this tweet Rekka some, uh, some love and encouragement @bittybittyzap. Yeah, she would very much appreciate that. Rekka:06:34   I would not be, um, against the idea of getting some, some call outs on Twitter and stuff like that. Positive call outs. Um, because book days book birthdays are lonely for some reason. Kaelyn:06:47   No, it's not. You're here with me. I. Rekka:06:48   am here. Kaelyn:06:49   Yeah. Um, cause we're recording this exactly on September 3rd. Rekka:06:54   Totally. Kaelyn:06:55   Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it is also, this is the first episode of submission September, which we're, so I'm, I'm really excited to do this and it's because I get to yell about a lot of stuff. Rekka:07:06   Kaelyn's been like building up and building up and building up things to say about this for awhile. Kaelyn:07:11   Oh, the thing is I tricked Rekka into this and because before she, she agreed and then before she knew it, she was like, oh, this is a manifesto as told through five podcast episodes. Yeah. Oh that's right, everyone. Rekka:07:24   Potentially six. Kaelyn:07:25   Potentially six. There's- Rekka:07:26   She's already threatened there might be six. Kaelyn:07:27   There's already, possibly six. There's definitely five. Rekka:07:30   Why not 20? Kaelyn:07:31   We've got, we have some really good stuff coming down the pipeline. Um, um, so yeah, today we're talking about preparing your submission, um, and getting it out into the world and seeing if anyone wants it. Now, um, I'm going to qualify real quick here that I am treating this the same as if you're preparing to submit or query to an agent or if you are submitting directly to a publishing house because these rules apply to both situations. Rekka:07:57   Right. Kaelyn:07:58   And there are rules. Rekka:07:59   So you know how you try to go out to high school wearing your really cool new like accessory or whatever and you try to get out of the house before mom sees you and then like you hear her call you back from the other end of the, she's like in the kitchen and you just like, can I make it in the door? Like, just won't open. This is like Kaelyn is calling you back from submitting whatever you were going to submit. She just wants to check just your ready. Kaelyn:08:24   Look - Rekka:08:26   It's out of love. Kaelyn:08:27   There's a lot of moving pieces here. Um, so we're going to kind of break this down into two parts. One is preparing your submission, which is how do I know this is ready to be put in front of people. And the second is going to be submissions guidelines. And I apologize in advance for how excited I am to talk about submissions, guidelines. Rekka:08:48   Near and dear to Kaelyn's heart. Kaelyn:08:49   Yes. Um, so the first, the big question, how do I know this is ready? How do I know time to send this out to people? Rekka:08:56   As a writer, I've been working on my story forever. I've been revising it a lot. I don't know if it's good enough. I mean that's why I'm sending it out cause I'm asking, please tell me, but this is good enough and you know, at what point do I stop fiddling with it and start finalizing it and send it out. Kaelyn:09:17   So I kind of always think of this as, you know, they say like if you make a journey by halves, half of the distance at a time, you'll never actually get there. It's kind of the same thing. You're down to a millimeter. And if you keep dividing it, you're just, you never going to get there to a certain point, you do take a step back and say, okay, this is done. So when do you submit it? The answer that I know everyone's going to love is when it is the best possible version it can be. Rekka:09:48   Another way I've heard this phrased is that when you can invest more time in it and the return on that investment of time is not significant. Like if you could make another revision pass, but if you were just like - Kaelyn:10:04   If it's not going to help, that's when you know the half journey. You're not, you're not getting any farther at this point. Rekka:10:10   Yeah. Kaelyn:10:11   Um, so we have talked about, you know, this, uh, episode two we talked a lot about, you know, pre-acceptance of your work and, um, then also working with an editor. Um, so hopefully we won't go too much into that. Again, probably people have already read it. If you're working with a freelance editor, if you've gotten notes, if you've had some Beta readers, um, you - Rekka:10:34   Hopefully, it's not just you at this point. Y. Kaelyn:10:36   eah. Yeah, I mean, you know - Rekka:10:38   It might be, but like, you know, if you haven't found anyone who's interested in it, it might be that you need to work on your pitch and maybe you're telling them too much before they open it up. But, um, you can hire people to read it if you are really not sure. Kaelyn:10:53   Yeah. Rekka:10:53   But chances are you're pretty confident in this thing. You're proud of it. You, you want to send it out. Kaelyn:10:57   I hope so. Rekka:10:58   Yeah, you should be. Kaelyn:10:59   So that's the story state of things. When you're ready, when it is the best possible version it can be and you can't do much more to it right now. The other side of things from besides story is mechanics and style and grammar. When is that ready? Now I will say acquisitions editor. I do not expect to get submissions that are perfectly copy edited. There's a reason we have copy editors. It's because those that's hard to do. Rekka:11:30   Yeah. Kaelyn:11:31   So that said, please use periods please capitalize. Please have a basic understanding of how commas work. Rekka:11:44   Um, if you run this through like grammar check in word or you get Grammarly and you run through and you disagree with every suggestion, every suggestion, you probably need to reconsider your stylistic choices. Kaelyn:11:59   Yes, definitely. So with knowing when your submission is ready in that regard, do basic writing checks, make sure that your grammar, punctuation, spelling is correct to the extent that you can get it. Like I said, no one is expecting a professional copy edit here, but watch for egregious errors. And I'm going to say something a little, I won't say controversial, the beginning of this is the most important part. If you can't, if you don't have time to comb through every single page of your manuscript, please for the love of God, at least do the first 20%. Um, because me the acquisitions editor, that's what I'm going to read first. And insider secret, I know people are doing that and I appreciate that. Now that said, if I get through your first 20% of your book and it devolves into, you know, misspelled words and abstract punctuation and you know, some really interesting uses of commas, I'm, that's gonna be a major red flag for me. So, but please pay extra special attention to the beginning of your book. Please, please proofread and closely check the first page of your book. Rekka:13:22   And I'll say it again. If you haven't read your entire book out loud yet, do that. Like, that's, Kaelyn:13:26   Yeah. Rekka:13:26   That's a good step to um, to making it more legible and definitely catching things that you haven't seen because you've looked at it too much. I think it's always important at least once in your books, you know, existence, um, to read it aloud. And if major changes happen, then it's always good to read new sections. Kaelyn:13:45   Absolutely. Rekka:13:45   So here's a really good place where you're going to catch stuff where you went, oh, I didn't even realize I did that. And it'll make your editor a little less mad at you. Kaelyn:13:52   Yeah. Um, one of the, you know, I think I've mentioned this on, on this podcast before, but I use what I call the Colin Coyle method. Colin's, the publisher at Parvus Press. And he always says, your first sentence is buying me your first paragraph, first paragraphs, buying me your first page. First page is buying me your first 10, first 10 buying me your first chapter. You are trying to get me to keep reading. Now part of that is story which, you know, I, I can't help you or offer advice on that in this context, but I can tell you that your grammar, punctuation and spelling is something that I'm going to be paying close attention to there. So - Rekka:14:31   Yeah. Kaelyn:14:32   Just please make sure, check the beginning of your book. That's very important. It's important throughout, but especially the beginning because that's the first impression you're making on me. Um, that's, you know, and you're going, well why is that such a big deal if you're going to get a copy editor? Because a couple things. One, it's setting the tone of your book. And I don't mean that in terms of story or style. I mean that in terms of what kind of a writer are you? Um, it's showing me that you're paying attention, that there's attention to detail and that's giving me a sense of what it's going to be like to work with you. Because if I'm getting a book through submissions and it's a mess in the first chapter, I'm going, well, this person doesn't care that much. I have other people here who put a lot of time and effort into getting this to a point that they want me to read it and this person just slapped some stuff together and sent it to me. That's, and it's wasting my time to now. So that's just gonna start off with leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Rekka:15:37   Right. But then plus every strange choice or, um, you know, uncaught mistake is a potential like tripping point where an editor might get, it, might be enjoying the story, but then they get popped out because like the sentence doesn't actually finish and, you know, go straight to the next paragraph, um, without, you know, the second half of the last sentence or something like that where you go, oh wait, and then you're out of the book, you're back in your room and you're wondering if you want to keep going. Kaelyn:16:06   I've had submissions where, um, I've had repeated paragraphs one right after on the first page, first page, repeated paragraphs. I've gotten ones that have really bad spelling errors in the first sentence. And it's not like they fat fingered a keyboard here, you know, like I've seen that and it's kinda like, alright, they were obviously just, you know, doing one last check through, accidentally leaned on the x. You know, it's, that's, that's fine. Um, but like first sentence spelling error is not, you know, that's not, it's not a good look for you to start with. Um, so please, you know, check, spend some time and do this. I know it can be boring. I know it can be a lot and I know it can be mind numbing, Rekka:16:54   But if you don't want a publishing deal bad enough to put this effort into exactly. Because you're going to be doing this a lot. Like there are more edit versions to come. Kaelyn:17:05   And that's what I mean when I say this is showing me what you're going to be like to look at. Because if I'm your editor and most any editor, I would hope you're not getting away with anything. Rekka:17:16   Right. Kaelyn:17:17   Um, if I put a note in your manuscript and you ignore it, that's going to be a problem. So it is a, it is a first impression. Your first page is trying to hook the, the editor, but it's also making a first impression. Um, so please pay attention to these things. Um, again, especially the beginning of the book, especially your first sentence. Um, because it does, you know, it's not like, oh well, whatever. It's just one little thing. No, it is showing so much about and what you would be like to work with. Rekka:17:51   Right. Kaelyn:17:52   It's very important please, I get hundreds of submissions every time we open for submission. So if it's a matter of the first person who couldn't be bothered to spellcheck their document Rekka:18:05   And spellcheck is on by default in most cases, if it's giving you a red squiggly line, consider you spelled it wrong. Kaelyn:18:11   Yes. Well assuming you know it's actually a word and not something - Rekka:18:15   Right, yeah, I know we're talking genre fiction. So you know, the spelling of your characters name may always get a red squiggle, but that doesn't mean like turn off your perception of red squiggles. Like scan the documents, see what else is, you know, coming up as an error. Kaelyn:18:29   Yeah. So if it's a choice between someone who couldn't be bothered to spell check the document and someone who clearly put a lot of time, work and effort into being careful about this, guess who I'm going to be more interested in working with? Rekka:18:39   Right. Kaelyn:18:39   Um, I will say, you know, and a big thing at Parvus is we're very into getting good stories. But if it's a good story from someone, that's going to be a nightmare, we don't want. Rekka:18:51   Right. Kaelyn:18:51   Um, a big part of this is figuring out can we work with this author? Do we want to work with this author because this is my time and my hours out of my life. So I'm not going to put that into something with someone that I don't want to work with. Rekka:19:08   And there is a certain percentage of your decision that's going on, gut feeling. And so these kinds of obvious disregard for your time, Kaelyn:19:17   Oh yeah, they're massive red flags. Rekka:19:18   Massive red flags, and they're going to send your gut feeling. Kaelyn:19:23   Exactly. Um, so your book is in the best possible state it can be You've spelled checked it, other people have read it, you're ready to go. So we're going to do more on a querying and how you find these places. Um, but, and again, for the purposes of this, we're lumping publishing houses and agents together. Rekka:19:46   Right. Kaelyn:19:47   Um, you query an agent, you submit to a publishing house, but it's tantamount to the same thing. Rekka:19:53   Right. Kaelyn:19:54   So what you're going to do is look for people that are open for considerations. For agents they'll say, I'm open for queries for publishing houses, they'll say, we're open for submissions. The first thing you want to do is do some research on this house or person. Rekka:20:09   Right. Kaelyn:20:10   Look at what they're interested in and where you will find this right off the bat is in their submissions guidelines, Rekka:20:19   Right. Yes. Most of the time they will tell you exactly what they are not looking for and if it's in that list it means they are sick to death of it. And you are no exception to that rule. Kaelyn:20:28   Yeah. Your book is probably not so special and interesting and unique that it's going to change their mind. Rekka:20:34   Right. So if they say no zombies and no werewolves, no, vampire romances is just - Kaelyn:20:39   Just don't. Rekka:20:40   - don't, and you've written that, don't, don't go for that. Kaelyn:20:43   Um, the other thing you should be doing though is looking at either, you know, other authors that the agent represents and the kind of stuff they write or in the case of the publishing house, the other things they've published. And just kind of see like where you would fit into this. Rekka:20:58   Yeah. Kaelyn:20:58   Do your research on these things. It's really important. Especially I would say, especially with publishing houses, you know, check them out, make sure that you know, this isn't some kind of predatory vanity press. Um, and with agents, um, good agents by the way, if you know they're interested in working with you, if you ask them, you know, can I talk to some of your other clients? They'll have no problem with that whatsoever. Rekka:21:22   Because they don't want you to talk to other clients, you probably don't want that agent. Kaelyn:21:26   That's a big red flag right there. Um, so, but submissions guidelines, what this is going to be is kind of two parts. One is what I'm looking for and what I'm not looking for, like the kinds of things that we're publishing. And then the other is, here's how I want you to get your submission together in order to present it to me. Rekka:21:45   Yep. Kaelyn:21:46   I think people do not take these seriously enough. Rekka:21:52   Or it looks like a big overwhelming bit of text. So they just do the best they can. And they have a manuscript that they um, they have made sure is in a standard manuscript format and they just throw it on over. Kaelyn:22:04   And why do they like what's so special about them? Why do they want it in this format? Because they're the one who's doing this and they get to say so, right? Rekka:22:10   They get to say so and they probably have a good reason. Like this is worked out for them in the past. It makes their job a little bit easier and makes them less cranky when they approach the submissions, which is exactly what you want. Kaelyn:22:21   But I will say their reasons for it are none of your business. If that's how they want this, then - Rekka:22:26   It's not up for debate. Kaelyn:22:27   It's not up for debate. And if you want to submit to them, that's how they do it. Um, I have had people write to me and say, well, I really don't want to do this because, and my answer is I don't care. Rekka:22:40   Yeah. Kaelyn:22:40   You know, like I write them back and go, well listen, you can submit however you want, but if you don't follow this submissions guidelines, there's a very good chance that this isn't getting looked at. Rekka:22:48   Right. Kaelyn:22:48   Um, so the other part of the submission guidelines are going to be do this, do this, don't do this. I want it in this format. Um, for publishing houses, I know for us we ask for a query letter and then your entire manuscript. Rekka:23:05   Which is not 100% of the time common. Kaelyn:23:09   Um, it depends. Yeah. You know, some, uh, I know a lot of agents now are that used to be a thing. Agents wanted your first a few chapters and a lot of them now are saying, I want your entire manuscript. Um, and this is kind of going into how it's easier to transfer digital files. Before agents didn't want your entire manuscript. They didn't want a hundred pages. They wanted the first few chapters. Rekka:23:31   Right, because these were arriving in a mail room. Kaelyn:23:32   Exactly. Now it's, you know, there's um, you know, you have like a submissions manager and it's really easy to go into. Um, we ask for, you know, your entire manuscript. I think a lot of publishing houses that do open submissions, we'll ask for your entire manuscript. A lot of agents are asking for entire manuscripts now, so if somebody asks for your entire manuscript, send the entire manuscript. One of the reasons that we do this is I want to know is this done? Rekka:23:57   Yeah and does it end okay? Kaelyn:24:01   Yeah, that's another - Rekka:24:01   I mean, you may not make it that far. Kaelyn:24:03   But well, if it's something I'm strongly considering, then I - Rekka:24:06   You jumped to the end. Kaelyn:24:08   I want to read it and you know, at least get an idea of where it's going, make sure it doesn't completely go off the rails. Um, but that's a question. You know, like when I, every time we open for submissions, I get at least a dozen or so that are like, here are the first five chapters of my book. And it's like, well, yup, out the door. But also the big thing is I'm wondering is, is this finished? Is this all you've written of the book? I'm not going to wait a year for you to finish writing this. Um, there will. So that's one thing, you know, they're gonna say, I want to these things, I want to query letter, I want the entire manuscript, I want a little bit of a bio from you. Maybe you know, that kind of stuff. Then there will be other guidelines with say a word count. Um, Parvus we have a 60,000 minimum for novels. Rekka:24:59   Yup. Kaelyn:24:59   And again, I constantly get emails going, mine's at 45. Is that okay? No, it's not. Rekka:25:06   It's not 60. Kaelyn:25:07   And is that less than 60? Rekka:25:10   There's your answer then. Kaelyn:25:10   No, it's not. Okay. Please don't go into this thinking I'm special. Rekka:25:19   Truly, I am the exception to this unnecessary rule. Kaelyn:25:23   Yeah. Mine's 45,000 words, but it's a really solid book and I think you guys should definitely take a look at that. And what that's saying to me is I do not want to take a look at this and I don't really want to work with this person. Yeah. Um, pay attention to the submissions guidelines. If they say they want anonymous submissions, make sure you have that. Rekka:25:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:25:46   You should have a version of your manuscript with all of your personal information scrubbed from it. Well how do they know how to get in touch with me then? Rekka:25:54   Their system is set up. Kaelyn:25:55   Don't worry about that. That's when you, you know, for us, for instance, our submissions manager, you have to register your new username. It's um, so we'll find all your information in there if we need to. We'll go look it up by manuscript ID and be like, okay, this is how I get in touch with this person. Don't worry, they'll figure out how to get in touch with you. They've done this before. Um, read the submissions guidelines, follow them. This is the easiest, silly thing you can do to immediately get yourself knocked out of consideration is not following the submissions guidelines. Why is that, Rekka? Rekka:26:33   Because if you want to have a professional relationship with a publisher, you need to show them that you are professional. And the easiest way to do that right from the start is to follow the submissions guidelines and give them exactly what they're looking for and nothing they aren't. And also, you know, just not proving that you're going to be difficult at every stage of the process. Kaelyn:26:57   Exactly. It's. Rekka:26:58   Speaking of being difficult. Hey, as a publisher, will you sign an NDA before I send you my, my manuscript? Kaelyn:27:06   Oh God. Yeah. Um, here's this is, I am not sure, [laughs] Rekka's watching me like make like very exasperated facial expressions and like - Rekka:27:18   I can't see past your hands what youre expression. Kaelyn:27:20   Like that are just like covering my face. Like, I don't know where this paranoia comes from. And in some cases that's the only way I can. Rekka:27:33   Somewhere there's an urban myth or it's probably happened. But somebody sent a manuscript off to somebody, they said, no thank you. And then a book came out that was awfully similar. So that author of course assumes that it was stolen and maybe, you know, like I said, there's probably cases where it did happen that way, but an NDA isn't going to stop the publishing house from doing that anyway. This is why you research a publishing house before you submit. Kaelyn:27:54   Yeah. I mean if, if that happens to you, then you've got amazing legal recourse because in this day and age, everything is digitally tracked. Rekka:28:03   So that it's not like you're sending off sheets of paper, they just tear your name off the top. Kaelyn:28:10   Um, don't make ridiculous, outlandish requests. If anyone emails me and says, can you sign this NDA? I'm not even going to respond to them. Rekka:28:20   Right. Kaelyn:28:20   That's like, and that's telling you how difficult they're going to be right off the bat. And plus that aparent level of paranoia is going to pervade through the entire process. Rekka:28:28   But also it's showing me I don't trust you. Kaelyn:28:30   Yeah. Rekka:28:31   Why? Like hold on, why do you want to work with me? Kaelyn:28:33   Right. Um, and there's a lot of trust that goes into what's gonna come next. Yes. And it's setting, well, I can't say it's setting a bad tone for a relationship because there isn't going to be your relationship at that point, but you really need to reevaluate what you're doing., if you think that everyone you need to send your book to your manuscript to, it needs to sign an NDA. Rekka:29:02   A publisher sees so many books and if they have an open call for submission, they're looking to buy books. So if you have a great book, they're going to buy it from you. They're not going to steal it from you. Kaelyn:29:13   Yeah. Because I mean alternatively we're just going to publish it as from this publisher? Who's going to be the author. So do I take it and do I take it and give it to another author? What would be the point of that? It's so don't, don't be obnoxious. I like, that's the only way I can come up with to describe that is that's borderline obnoxious. I'm sending these sort of things, making demands of the publisher and look, the power dynamic here is definitely a little weird. And if you're a writer, not great because the truth is you don't have much if you're doing an open submissions call. So don't send NDAs to people. Um, but yeah, and back to Rekka's point. This is showing me what it's going to be like to work with you. If you can't follow a set of directions that doesn't bode well for the time, money and investment we're going to put into you. For agentss it's the same thing. They're going to spend a lot of time trying to shop you around, talk you up, get you the best deal possible. And if you're going to make their lives miserable, you're maybe not someone when they want to be having as a client either. So the submission guidelines are there to make my life easier, but they're also there to show me a little about you and show me how you function. Show me if you can follow directions. Rekka:30:35   And one thing I, I feel I need to say is like we make it sound like, you know, don't be difficult, don't whatever. It doesn't mean you're going to set up an expectation that this publisher can walk all over you. What you're showing them is your competence. So if you are competent enough to follow submissions guidelines in the first place and you're competent enough to write a good story that they want to buy, they will also expect that you are competent enough to stand up for your rights when it comes to negotiating contracts, et Cetera, et cetera. So don't feel that by not asserting yourself with, you know, various, um, you know, like standing your ground sort of mentalities at the beginning of this that you are going to end up like being the doormat for this publisher. That is not, that is not what we're trying to set up here. We're trying to set up a great working relationship Kaelyn:31:22   And I will take this a step further and say, I'm not saying don't be afraid to ask questions if you have a question, um, you know, email them and just say, Hey, I'm, you know, what's best for me to do with this sort of thing. Um, now that said, before you do this, you should try to figure out if your answers in the submissions guidelines. Rekka:31:43   Cause it's probably in the submissions guidelines. Kaelyn:31:46   Um, one thing that I'm a little bit of a gray area about is like, well I read in your submissions guidelines that you're not taking things with werewolves in them, but my werewolves are in space and it's Scifi. Rekka:32:00   Right. Kaelyn:32:02   So, Rekka:32:02   So if you don't understand that, they're like talking specifically say about urban paranormal romance and it's not that clear but like, you know, clarify. But. Kaelyn:32:14   And I would also say, you know, if you want to email them, that's fine. Um, and to be honest with you, there's a good chance, you're not going to get a reply back. Um, but you can also put that in your query letter. Rekka:32:25   Right. Kaelyn:32:25   And you know, Rekka:32:26   Just in a query letter - Kaelyn:32:27   Yeah. We're going to talk about query letters next week and that's a good place to kind of make any sort of conditional kind of stuff that you want everyone aware of. Like, I know this title werewolves in it, but it's werewolves on Mars. That actually might make me go. Huh. All right. I'll take a look at that. Rekka:32:46   Right. So, yeah, maybe not asking the question about like your specific story, but the questions about the submissions guidelines themselves. Kaelyn:32:54   Absolutely. Rekka:32:55   Send an email and say like, um, I'm looking at this email and I think there might be a typo in your like email address or something like that because it doesn't match the domain name, like, yeah, you can write an email about that. Kaelyn:33:08   Just to clarify or you know, just to make sure like this is, um, I'm going to go on a little short tirade here right now, I apologize. When asking questions like this again, keep in mind how many emails and how much stuff is going on. Please take the time to actually compose an email. Um, I don't know if everyone, I think most people probably feel the same way with this with me, and I don't know if this is me being overly fussy, but I hate when I get emails that are just, hey, so like what about this thing? And that's it. Rekka:33:45   Yeah. Like keep in mind that no, this is not your official submission. This is probably talking to somebody who might review your submission as a professional corresponds. Kaelyn:33:53   This is not, you're not sending me a text or a DM. This is, hi Kaelyn. You know, I'm so and so. I'm, I'm interested in submitting to you. I just had this one question because I'm getting ready to submit and I don't want to get disqualified for something silly, Rekka:34:10   Right. I, Kaelyn:34:13   I don't know if it's just a pet peeve of mine if it's just, you know, something that really sets my hackles up is when I get emails that - Rekka:34:23   It's like one line and it's right to the question and it just comes off as rude and demanding. Kaelyn:34:28   Demanding is exactly that, right? Like, hey, tell me about this. Like, no, first of all go read the submissions guidelines second, like take some time and compose an email for me. You know, I'm not saying this has to be, you know, the equivalent of the Queen's invitation. Rekka:34:43   I mean, this isn't a query letter itself. You don't have to worry too much about it, but just be nice, you know, like - Kaelyn:34:48   Like you would any other professional setting, Rekka:34:50   To Whom It May Concern if you don't know who you're writing to, exactly. And say I'm reviewing - like, here's what I'm doing, here's my question. I appreciate your time and answering it. Kaelyn:34:59   Yeah. Rekka:34:59   And sign off professionally. Kaelyn:35:01   It doesn't need to be paragraphs. Please don't make a paragraphs. Um, but think about, you know, if you were interviewing or applying for a job, same thing. This is a professional setting. Rekka:35:09   Let me tell you people still, you know, I've interviewed people and I have still got emails like that. Kaelyn:35:13   No. And I mean, I'm sure you know, there's, it's, it's systemic of, you know, the online, it's symptoms of the culture, unfortunately. Um, but that is, that's another thing that is gonna make me go like, oh my God, this person, why do, why would you send this to me? Um, so just be conscious, be aware of this as a professional interaction. Rekka:35:38   Yeah. Kaelyn:35:38   So that's getting your submission ready. Um, do your research, do your spell checks. Um, talk to people that you know, can maybe point you in the right direction and follow the submissions guidelines. It is the smallest thing you can do to get yourself removed from consideration unnecessarily. Rekka:36:03   It's really surprising what a fight people will put up when it's not that much effort. Kaelyn:36:08   Yeah. And one thing I will say also is, um, when I say research, especially publishing houses agents as well and especially publishing houses is check for context. Yes, maybe what you're writing falls within the submissions guidelines, but make sure it is actually something that you think they'd be interested in publishing. Um, can I tell a story that's slightly inappropriate? Rekka:36:35   I mean we can cut it later or if I, if I go, you know, I don't like this story. Kaelyn:36:39   I got a submission once that was an epic, you know, high epic fantasy and it was, you know, very sword and shield like, um, I have no, I don't remember anything about what it was about because all I remember is within the first two pages I got lengthy graphic description of three different men's penises. Rekka:37:04   Hmm. Kaelyn:37:07   Extolling the virtues of each of them. And, and I'm reading this going, this person is not a bad writer. And this sounded like this was maybe an interesting story. I, but no. Rekka:37:20   However I'm done. Kaelyn:37:21   I'm burning this, I'm going to print it out just so I can burn it. Um, so that's just another thing. Rekka:37:28   So know your audience. Kaelyn:37:29   No, that's exactly. Yeah. Know your audience. And that's a good thing to keep in mind while researching publishing houses, if they don't seem like they're interested in having stories with graphic descriptions of male genitalia crammed into the first 300 words the book, Rekka:37:48   I mean maybe pick up one of their other books and see if that's in there. Kaelyn:37:52   Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're gonna, if you're going to go for something then like that, I mean one may be don't, but two, you know, make sure - Rekka:37:59   There's an audience for it somewhere, you've just got to look a little harder. Kaelyn:38:01   Exactly. And you know, so be, be aware of that kind of thing. So, um, you know, that's, I think that's a good. Rekka:38:08   We can end on the penises. Kaelyn:38:09   On the penis story. Cause I don't know where else to go from there. Rekka:38:14   There's no where to go from there. Kaelyn:38:15   No where to go from that. Rekka:38:17   Mic dropped, podcast is over. Kaelyn:38:19   We're done. Good luck everyone. Uh, no. So that's um, you know, that's prepping your submissions on next week. We're doing query letters. Rekka:38:26   Yup. Kaelyn:38:27   Um, I'm excited for that one too. Rekka:38:28   Yes. Query letters is a more artistic expression of following the submissions guidelines because - Kaelyn:38:33   Well for you, for me it's, you know, okay, I've got an agenda. Rekka:38:36   Okay, fair. Alright. So up next week there's a tease. Kaelyn:38:42   Next week Kaelynand Rekka duke it out over query letters. Rekka:38:45   And again it is next week because for submission September we are doing weekly episodes, maybe even more depending on how things go. So, um, yeah, look forward to that and let us know if you have any funny penis submission story is or otherwise. Kaelyn:39:00   Yeah. Like, you know, um, so we're recording a lot of these in advance, but you know, we did talk about, we'd mentioned in the previous episode, we did talk about, you know, we got some questions and stuff. We'd be very happy to do a wrap up episode. Yeah. And kind of maybe if there's a few topics, pick those and kind of talk about, flush them out a little more. Rekka:39:18   Yeah. Kaelyn:39:18   Um, yeah, we're, I'm having such a great time with this [laughs] Rekka's giving me a look right now because I must have like Harley Quinn like giant crazy eyes right now. Um, cause I am just giddy over getting to, uh, getting to talk about this stuff. So, um, anyway, uh, thank you you for listening. We'll see you next week. In the meantime, you can hit us up on the socials as usual, Rekka:39:42   Twitter at @WMBcast, patreon.com/WMBcast, Instagram @WMBcast. And of course you can find wmbcast.com and listen to all the old episodes or if you are new, you can go back and find some of your new favorite episodes. Kaelyn:40:02   Thank you everyone for listening. We'll see you next week, which that's exciting to say. Rekka:40:06   Oh my gosh. Like don't get used to this. Kaelyn:40:08   No. Rekka:40:08   I don't think we can sustain this pace, especially with the cost of the train fare over here. So thanks everyone for listening in and next week: Query letters, Kaelyn:40:17   Query letters. We'll see you there. Bye.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for listening to the launch episodes of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We kick off the podcast series with a discussion of the lifecycle of a book. We're going to cover straight up to the book's release over this episode and the next, and today we talk all the way up to the happy-scary moment when your book is picked up by a publisher. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns, and any theories you may have about "Spider-Man: Far From Home." Thank you for taking the time to listen to this introduction, the first batch of new episodes drops on May 14th, so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss it. A transcription of this episode can be found below. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast === Transcript === Kaelyn: 00:00 Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the we make books podcast, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am an editor and acquisitions editor at Parvus press. Rekka: 00:12 And I'm Rekka Jay. I write science fiction as RJ Theodore and one of my books has published through Parvus Press Kaelyn: 00:18 And we love it. It's such a great book. Should I'll go get it. Um, so this is the second half of our two introductory episodes. Um, we are kind of doing a rough, uh, walk through. Rekka: 00:30 I think it's more of a tear through Kaelyn: 00:32 A tear through yeah. Tear through of, um, the publishing process. Same qualifiers. Last time we know this is not a perfect in depth every single part of the process. Rekka: 00:42 The part you care about. Yeah. We didn't talk about it enough but we will someday. Kaelyn: 00:45 No, I mean we were like that one. We're leaving that out. But, uh, this is, you know, so the first episode, which hopefully you just finished listening to, we covered, um, from having a finished manuscript up to submissions and broaching into the process of acquisitions here, we're gonna start with acquisitions and walk you all the way up to what happens to get the book on the shelf. If you didn't listen to the first episode I recommend go do that. If you didn't listen to our introductory episode, I also recommend you go do that. Um, just to get an idea of us, what this podcast is about and what we're planning to do here. Rekka: 01:17 Yeah. Before we're 10 episodes in and you have a lot more to catch up on. Kaelyn: 01:20 Yeah. And, uh, you know, we're releasing these all back to back. So, you know, this is a, Rekka: 01:25 This is our launch day, funny we should mention that we get to that. Kaelyn: 01:29 Yes, yes. So we talk a lot about launch days, um, so you know, just some information, some. Um, and to also give you an idea of topics that we were going to be discussing more in depth with dedicated episodes as we go down the line. Uh, so this is the second half of the two parter. Let's just get to it. Rekka: 01:46 Yeah. Kaelyn: 01:46 Hope you enjoy. Kaelyn: 01:47 [Music] Kaelyn: 01:54 Okay. Kaelyn: 02:05 It is kind of what we do. Rekka: 02:07 So, um, we spent an episode talking about sort of more the writers realm of responsibility. Kaelyn: 02:14 Yes. Real quick. Welcome back everyone. Rekka: 02:17 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're fine. They've been here. Whatever we said high already, they're binging. Kaelyn: 02:22 I don't know, you know, it's nice to like, Rekka: 02:24 Be polite? Kaelyn: 02:25 I know everyone's going to be just listening, you know. Hopefully everyone's just going to be listening to these two, this batch after the other. But you know, it's nice to say hello again in case they had to walk away from that. But so where last we left you, it was a cliffhanger. Kaelyn: 02:39 It was a cliffhanger. You just got accepted. Then what happens? Kaelyn: 02:42 Then what happens? Rekka: 02:43 Is this a soap opera or is this real life? Kaelyn: 02:46 Really quick? Tight pan on the face. Giant eyes. [gasp] Rekka: 02:53 Cut to commercial. Kaelyn: 02:53 Cut to commercial. Um, no. So where are we last left you, we were ah, you know, so you've gotten a call from an acquisitions editor. Rekka: 02:59 Yes. In theory, all your hard work has paid off. Kaelyn: 03:03 That's, hey, look. Rekka: 03:04 And all your hard work is just beginning. Kaelyn: 03:06 Yeah. Yeah. I think there's this thing that everyone thinks some about my book. I'm good. Rekka: 03:12 I'm done. Oh God, that's so wrong. Kaelyn: 03:14 So wrong. Rekka: 03:15 Sweet summer child. You are so wrong. Kaelyn: 03:19 That's good. I'm trying to think of things that could not be farther from the truth. Rekka: 03:24 Yeah, there's nothing. Kaelyn: 03:25 Um, so we're going to walk you through what happens after that now. But in order to get to that, we got to talk about acquisitions process a little bit. Rekka: 03:35 Yeah. Kaelyn: 03:36 So you Rekka, are someone that has been through it. I myself, uh, in case you have not listened to our intro episode, which go listen to it. Rekka: 03:43 Yeah. Yeah. Kaelyn: 03:44 Um, I am an acquisitions editor for Parvus Press, so I, this is– Rekka: 03:49 This is what you do. Kaelyn: 03:49 This is what I do among other things, but this is, this is the bread and butter of my, a lot of my job. Um, so again, we're not going to get into too much crazy detail here. Um, this is stuff we're absolutely going to talk about more down the line. Um, but we want to give you sort of a brief run through. So very quickly glossing over all of the, you know, what makes me interested in books because there is no good answer to that. Rekka: 04:21 Yeah, and it's not a universal. Kaelyn: 04:22 No, not by any stretch of the imagination. But let's say you've submitted your manuscript script. I've enjoyed it and next thing that's going to happen is you're going to get a call from me or if you've gone through an agent, I'll probably go through your agent and then set up a call with you. Kaelyn: 04:40 So what's going to happen here is I'm trying to get a good sense of you. I want to see what you envision for the book, what you're like to work with as a writer and how working relationship will be going, but also set your expectations for what we want and what we'd be asking you to do to your book because, and this is a running theme you're going to see through this: there's no such thing as a book that gets accepted and immediately published. It doesn't happen. Rekka: 05:15 Or should not happen. Kaelyn: 05:16 Should not happen. If it does happen, don't publish with that publisher. Rekka: 05:22 That's not your publisher. Kaelyn: 05:23 That's not someone you should be working with. Um, so we're going to have a couple of conversations. Uh, if there's an, if there's an agent involved, there'll be involved in the conversations. Um, most places, and again, another qualifier everywhere is a little different. Um, but you should be talking to people before you even start talking about a contract. So once everyone's kind of gotten to a place that we've, we've had, you know, had some conversations back and forth, Rekka, what is the one thing you need to stop and do? As excited as you are and as ready to sign the contract as you are? What should you do agent or not? Rekka: 06:09 Research, this publisher. Research this publisher until you know what the mineral makeup of the ground they're building is built on this, right? Kaelyn: 06:18 I mean, it's true because a few reasons. One, you know, presumably for working with an agent, they are, they're going to take care of you and look out for you. So you shouldn't be, you know, there's that. But even still, you should still be doing your own research if you not make sure that you're, you know, at minimum ending up in a place that is going to work well for and with you at worst, make sure you're not getting stuck with some kind of predatory publisher that's going to lock up your rights for years. Rekka: 06:48 Right Kaelyn: 06:49 So I know it's exciting, it's really exciting. Rekka: 06:52 It's very exciting. This is exactly what you've been working towards. You know, as far as you're concerned, this is your end goal. I mean, it's probably not your end end goal, but this is a moment that feels like everything hinges on you getting that contract and advance as fast as possible. Kaelyn: 07:10 Yes Rekka: 07:10 And that may, you know, it may not be the right publisher. Kaelyn: 07:13 Don't let it cloud your judgment, you know, for all of the time, all of the time we spent talking in a previous episode about how much blood, sweat and tears went into this, keep in mind how much of your blood, sweat and tears went into this. Don't throw it away. Rekka: 07:27 Right. Kaelyn: 07:27 I can't imagine having to make the decision to walk away from something like that. But think how miserable you will be if you don't. Rekka: 07:33 Right. This is a decision that seems like there's a lot of pressure pushing you in one direction and that saying no to a publisher and walking away, it may be your only chance and you will regret it forever and you will never get your book published if you don't go through them. And they may even say that and you definitely don't want those people. Kaelyn: 07:52 Yeah. Rekka: 07:52 Um, but look at the catalog of books that have been put out by this publisher. Those are the lists of names of people that you could potentially reach out to and just say, hey, I have been offered, you know, a purchase of my book by this publisher and I see that you worked with them, could you tell me, Kaelyn: 08:13 How was the process? Rekka: 08:14 You know, without divulging the, you know, the, Kaelyn: 08:17 Were you happy with them is a very easy to answer a question without asking for too much specifics, just yes or no? Rekka: 08:26 Yup. Kaelyn: 08:26 Just yes, I'm very happy with them. I have a great relationship or eh, it could have been better. Rekka: 08:30 And the reason you go to the catalog is because these are the books that the publishers still retains rights to, but they may not be authors that are actively with that publisher. So you may find some more honest answers than others. Kaelyn: 08:42 Yeah yeah, so, okay. Let's say you've done all your research. This is great. This is the publishing houses of your dreams. You are so excited! Now it's time for the contract. Rekka: 08:51 Yes. Kaelyn: 08:51 And ... Rekka: 08:52 You like legalese? I hope you like legalese. Kaelyn: 08:55 I really hope you like trying to understand minute details of things that are hopefully never going to apply to you. Rekka: 09:01 But I have a question. Kaelyn. Kaelyn: 09:04 Huh? Rekka: 09:04 I have a question. Kaelyn: 09:05 Sure. Rekka: 09:06 Does anyone talk like the language in a contract? Kaelyn: 09:11 Yes, but only if we're talking about a contract. Rekka: 09:13 Yeah. What is that? What is the deal with that? Kaelyn: 09:17 It's you know, it's cover your ass language is really what it is. Rekka: 09:21 But obfuscated information is not covering your ass if Kaelyn: 09:25 Well, actually it's ... Rekka: 09:25 it's well for debating what that even means. Kaelyn: 09:28 This is actually a good point to bring up is the reason that these very specific and very complicated words and phrases are used is because there have been court cases over the meaning of specific words. So you have to use specific words because they need us Rekka: 09:45 Because they have court precedents. Kaelyn: 09:46 Yes. And they translate to a consequence essentially. So yeah, as you're reading through this going like, oh my God, what? And I realize this must be extra torture for writers. Rekka: 09:57 Yeah. Kaelyn: 09:58 I just, I have a couple of comments Rekka: 10:00 I have some feedback. If you're open to it. Kaelyn: 10:03 The plot of this clause is just all over the place. Rekka: 10:07 I really don't like how it ends. Kaelyn: 10:07 I don't know who this subsequent is, but they keep, they keep popping up and then nothing happens. Rekka: 10:16 So, um, yeah, no, it's, it's, they can be daunting but... Kaelyn: 10:22 And if you don't understand what they mean, do not sign them. We're going to, we're going to get to that. So if you have an agent, your agent is going to handle a lot of the contract negotiations. They will, I mean, they should be, you know, keeping you involved, talking to you about, well, are you willing to take this? And this or they'll advise you, cause you know, your agents a professional, they know how to navigate this. Rekka: 10:46 And they're also familiar with these terms and these ... Kaelyn: 10:47 Yeah. Subsequents. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So if you're doing this on your own, look, I'm not going to say, you know, you must go get a lawyer because it's expensive. Rekka: 11:01 However, Kaelyn: 11:02 However, Rekka: 11:03 So is signing away your rights without understanding what you're signing away. Kaelyn: 11:06 Yes, exactly. um, if you don't understand what you're reading, if you have questions about it, again, this is your blood, sweat and tears. Rekka: 11:16 And if this is your first book, it means even more than like your third book or your fourth book. Kaelyn: 11:20 Exactly, yeah. So think about how much time and effort you put into this and think about if it's the ri - worth the risk of signing a bad contract. Rekka: 11:32 Mmhmm. Kaelyn: 11:33 Most places, I won't say they're not out. I will say they're not out to screw you. Rekka: 11:39 However, Kaelyn: 11:40 I will go so far as to say they're not trying to take advantage of you, but like every contract, each side is trying to get as much out of the other as they can. Now, I will say like, and I'm not just saying this because it's Parvus, I will say and Rekka, you can attest to this, we write very fair contracts and I think there is definitely an effort on the part of a lot of, especially independent publishers to do that. But it doesn't matter if somebody, if an offer sent it back to me and I said, you read it over, you have any questions? And they said, ah, whatever. I just signed it. I'd just be like, oh boy. Rekka: 12:14 Actually so funny story. Kaelyn: 12:18 Um, just read it. If you have any questions, you know, find someone or Google it, look it up. You know, there is, we will, we will do an episode about this. Talk about, you know, things that should be red flags and contracts, but the biggest things that are going to be the most interest to you covered or your advance, your royalties, your rights, uh, deadlines. That's a big one because Rekka: 12:43 Kind of a big one Kaelyn: 12:44 Lot's of them will ... Rekka: 12:44 They're in there in black ink. Kaelyn: 12:46 Yeah, a lot of times they get written into the contract and you know, you can, you're, you can lose your advance if you don't meet the deadline. And then there's going to be a lot of things like, you know, um, termination, um, you know, sales quotas like different things for longer down the road. And you know, those were the ones that you might gloss over, but you shouldn't. Umm, also in there is going to be any stipulations about what the publisher versus you were going to be doing for marketing. Um, things about your audio books, Rekka: 13:17 Your author copies. Kaelyn: 13:18 You're author copies. All different kinds of little things that you should be aware of. Like I said, we're going to do, we're definitely going to do one where we get a little more in depth with this because it's very important. And on, I think the post acquisition side, it's the most intimidating part of the process. Like the, I have no idea how any of this works. Rekka: 13:41 And what does this word mean? What does it mean if I sign this the way it's written and am I allowed to ask for changes or are they going to withdraw their offer? Kaelyn: 13:49 Exactly. And you know, honestly they shouldn't. Rekka: 13:52 Right. Kaelyn: 13:52 Um, you go back and say, Hey, I'm concerned about this, Rekka: 13:56 The phrase contract negotiation is a thing. Kaelyn: 13:58 Yes, yes. And um, yeah. I'm not going to say some people will say never accept the first contract given to you. If that's a good contract and you're happy with it. Rekka: 14:08 Yeah, if the things that you were most concerned with are addressed to your liking in the contract and you know what everything means and you're, and it's not just because I think I know what everything means, but you actually understand and you've had conversations about what everything means. Then if you like the contract, if the things that mattered to you are, are, set to your satisfaction, there isn't anything that like you would, you would want to clarify or or modify. You can sign that contract. Kaelyn: 14:39 Yup. There's nothing, you know? Yeah. Just be smart about it is the thing. At the end of the day, the last thing you want is to walk away with a contract that you're unhappy about. Rekka: 14:50 Right. Kaelyn: 14:51 So you've got a great contract. You're all excited, you've dug in, you've had conversations with the acquisitions editor or the publisher. Hopefully you've had a conversation with, if not your editor, somebody who is on that team or associated affiliated with them. At least you've talked about what the plans are for the book. They've talked about what your intentions for the book are, how you see the future of the, if it's a series, how you see it going. Rekka: 15:14 Mmhmm. Kaelyn: 15:15 So now, Rekka: 15:17 And some of the changes that they want might have been in your contract, so you may have already had this conversation. Kaelyn: 15:22 Yes. That's a good point. Yes. There they may say the publication of this book is contingent upon you doing A, B, and C. We'll talk a little bit more about that in the next section about working with your editor, but part of the reason for that is to make it clear what the expectations are with this, because ... Rekka: 15:45 And that's a good thing. Kaelyn: 15:46 No, it is. Rekka: 15:46 And it sounds so firm and so stern, but it really is the more clear that anyone can be the better off for everyone involved because you know what you're getting into. Kaelyn: 15:55 And I think this is where people, writers start to get nervous about publishers that, and this is a good transition into working with your editor because I think they get nervous about what they're going to make me change everything. Here's the thing. We would not have bought your book if we didn't like it the way it is. You wrote a good book. We would not have bought it if you didn't. We're going to take it and make it a great book together. This is a team process. This isn't, you know, some random person descending from on high with a red pen, marking it up and tossing it back to you. This is, you know, this is a conversation. This is a process, Rekka: 16:37 And you're still going to be doing the work of the edits. This is still going to be your book at the end of it. Take every challenge as a way to go, okay, how do I make the strong stronger? What do I want to do here? They're going to offer you probably some kind of suggestion, Kaelyn: 16:50 Oh, you'll have conversations. Rekka: 16:50 But it's not a fully formed suggestion. It's going to be more of a challenge. Kaelyn: 16:54 Yeah, you'll have conversations. Yeah. I mean I, one of my favorite things that I get to do and you know, um, apart from acquiring books, they edit our books too. I love getting on the phone with my authors and talking through and having things explained and having a problem and going like, okay, how do we work? Rekka: 17:11 Um, I planned a bank heist with my editor Kaelyn: 17:14 And that's honestly, that's my favorite part of this is the first part, the developmental edits. So developmental edits are, you're working on the story, it's the structure, themes, cohesiveness, character arcs, making sure everything makes sense, lines up is a nice neat package at the end of the day or if it's supposed to be a mess at the end, it's an appropriate mess at the end. Um, Kaelyn: 17:40 So this is where you're going to be having a lot of conversations with your editor and every editor works differently. Um, I know the way I deal with my authors is different from the way Rekka's editor, deals with her and we work at the same company. Rekka: 17:54 Yes. Kaelyn: 17:55 And I think part of that also is, you know, making sure the editor fits well with the author. Everyone works differently. Rekka: 18:01 We knew that Kaelyn would never be able to tolerate spending any amount of time with me, Kaelyn: 18:05 No, no ... Rekka: 18:05 So Kaelyn did not become my editor. Kaelyn: 18:07 Yeah, so we just decided to do this podcast together. [laughter] That seemed like a much better, Kaelyn: 18:14 So we just, we don't even just email each other back and forth. We're in the same room together, Rekka: 18:18 Yes. Kaelyn: 18:18 For long periods of time. Kaelyn: 18:19 So probably a good idea now not to ever work on a book together, just in case. Oh God, could you imagine? I can't decide if that would be like, Rekka: 18:27 The best or the worst. Yeah, Kaelyn: 18:28 Awesome. Or if we'd just be like handing back like a 700 page tome of like, so here's the thing, if you read this, when you get to the end, the book becomes a singularity, [laughter] so make sure you're away from everything when you get to that. Yeah, no, we could, we could possibly do some damage there, Rekka: 18:52 Or at least, and the podcasts early, [laughter] one or the other. Kaelyn: 18:58 Either we take over the world or we killing each other. It's going to be okay. So that's, you know, that's going to be what your developmental editor is doing. How many passes, there's no answer to that, Rekka: 19:07 As many as many as it takes. Kaelyn: 19:09 As many as it takes. Rekka: 19:09 Hopefully, like, you know, everyone is cooperating well so that somebody isn't resisting a change in writing around the change. Kaelyn: 19:16 And that's a great part of the ... Rekka: 19:20 Admission? Kaelyn: 19:20 Yeah, well no, that's a great spot to talk about. You know, having conflict with your editor and what we were talking about before about the sphere of like they're going to come in and change everything. Our book, my book, everyone's book. Okay. Having, you know, your editor might come in and tell you that your favorite part of the book isn't working and that's difficult to hear. Rekka: 19:44 Because it's precious Kaelyn: 19:45 It's precious. And I will say someone who's had that conversation, it's difficult to say because I personally can tell the parts of the book that they really like. Rekka: 19:57 Enjoyed and are proud of ... Kaelyn: 19:57 Yeah, exactly. Um, try not to fight with your editor. It's just, and conversely, your editors should not be picking fights with you, but it's not going to help anyone and it's going to strain the relationship. It's, you know, everyone, every relationship with editors is different. If you disagree on something, try not to look at it as a conflict. Try to look at it as how are we going to sort this out and how can we get to a mutually beneficial conclusion both for us and the sake of the story. Nobody wants to write a book under a black cloud. Rekka: 20:39 Right. Kaelyn: 20:39 It's not .... Rekka: 20:40 Cause you're gonna remember that black cloud, when you look at that book on the shelf later. Kaelyn: 20:44 And this is, you know, like again as, as an editor, I never want an author to walk away from a section unhappy. Like I've had so many times where I've had to tell writers, yeah, put it down, walk away from it. Because if you write it right, like the way you are right now, and you know this isn't necessarily because we're in disagreement over some things might have just been frustration or writer's block or Rekka: 21:07 Society or, Kaelyn: 21:08 Yeah, it's the same thing with having a disagreement over it. You're not going to be happy with the book and you're going to regret that. And part of my job as your editor is to get the book to a place for it is an excellent book and you're both happy with it. So at the end of your developmental edits, everything that we've talked about, your story, your character arcs, the structure, the plot lines, everything should be where you want it to be. Both parties would be happy with it. They're going to say functionally the story's done. Rekka: 21:36 Yeah. Kaelyn: 21:36 Yeah. Then comes line edits. Rekka: 21:38 Okay. Kaelyn: 21:41 Line edits ... Rekka: 21:42 Speaking of functionally. functionally this isn't English Kaelyn: 21:46 Yes, line edits are the part where you start to question your ability to write. Line edits are your editor, and again everywhere is different. It could be your editor that does this, you know, if it's a larger publishing house, maybe the hand off to someone more junior to uh, to take a look at. Rekka: 22:05 But it's not a bad thing if it goes to somebody else because now you get another Kaelyn: 22:10 Oh yeah, Rekka: 22:10 New perspective on this book who's going to catch stuff because they haven't been part of the process so far. Kaelyn: 22:15 Rekka actually just brought up a kind of potentially key component here that we didn't really bullet point, but it's good to talk about is: Beta readers. Rekka: 22:25 Mmmhmmm. Kaelyn: 22:25 Now the use of these. Rekka: 22:27 They are precious and they're wonderful. Kaelyn: 22:28 They're precious, they're wonderful. Buy them cookies, give them hugs. Rekka: 22:31 Build an army. Kaelyn: 22:31 Build an army that's full of cookies and lots of hugs. Depending on your publishing house or who's publishing you, they may or may not use them. But for the sake of, you know, this here, and by the way, if you're self publishing, Beta readers, Rekka: 22:48 Are so key, Kaelyn: 22:49 So key and crucial. Um, but Beta readers are going to do basically what Rekka just said. They're going to look at the book, they're going to, you know, say like, I liked it. I didn't like it. I was confused at this part. Um, this character's storyline doesn't make sense to me. You're going to get large scale feedback from, macro feedback from them, if you will. And that's, you know, depending on how things work, that might be after most of the developmental edits or that might be kind of during, Rekka: 23:18 Yeah, it's, it's kind of up to you as the author if you were in, you know, working with your own army. Kaelyn: 23:23 Yeah. The editor will, you know, um, I know a part of this, we have a Beta reader program, Rekka: 23:30 But if you know, you have heavy lifting to do on your book, you don't want to bring, Kaelyn: 23:32 No, that's not ... Rekka: 23:33 In the Beta readers because that, that's wasting their time. Kaelyn: 23:36 They are for fine tuning. Rekka: 23:36 They will be reacting to this as a reader would. And that's really a valuable thing. Kaelyn: 23:41 That is, yeah, it's so important because it's just a great perspective to have. It's an indicator. It's, you know, we've dropped something in this solution. Let's see what color it turns to tell us what it is. Rekka: 23:55 And if you have more people, it goes from an n equals two to like an n equals 10 maybe. And that's just like, it really, it really multiplies how many reinforcing opinions you get on, like whether it works. Yeah. Kaelyn: 24:08 So that could be happening either during the process of developmental edits or right after, but then afterwards you going in the line edits, line edits, it's like we were talking about are sentence structure. Um, ma- watching and catching for like repeated words. Rekka: 24:27 And believe me. You've got repeated words. Kaelyn: 24:29 Trust me, you have repeated words. I understand they're only so many ways to say the word desk, but, Rekka: 24:36 But you can write around it. Kaelyn: 24:37 Yes. So you know line edits, I mean, your editor is going to go in there and they're going to just make the changes and they should track everything and it's not, you must do this a lot of times. Like when I do it, it's like, look, if I'm adding ha- half of the sentence or I'm moving something, this is a suggestion and I'm giving you an idea of how to make this work better. Rekka: 24:59 Yeah. Kaelyn: 24:59 Um, you know, some editors are kind of like, nope, you're doing it this way. This is so again, everyone's a little different. It is not a reflection of your command of the English language. It is a reflection of the fact that writing somewhere between 70 and 150,000 words causes fatigue. Rekka: 25:18 Yes. Kaelyn: 25:19 And there are only so many ways you can say something differently. Um, so this is the clarity portion of things. This is the making sure that when the reader reads this, they understand what they're reading. Rekka: 25:32 And a lot of that is making it succinct. Kaelyn: 25:34 And if I wrote that sentence down, I would make them change it. Rekka: 25:37 Yeah. [laugter] Yes. Spoken sentences are the worst. Kaelyn: 25:41 But I mean Rekka, you do you do a read aloud, right? Rekka: 25:44 I absolutely do a read aloud. I'm still suffering recovery from my, my last real aloud, which ended, um, almost two weeks ago now. Kaelyn: 25:51 Yeah. Which is, I mean, you know, for, if you're unsure of what it is, it's you get your manuscript, you go through it and yeah, Rekka's pointing at, I'm not joking. It's a two inch binder. Rekka: 26:03 I'm sorry. That's a three inch binder. Kaelyn: 26:05 Three inch binder. I was wrong. That was a three inch binder of her printed manuscript and there's all sorts of flags and posted sticking out of it. We'll put a picture of it on the Instagram so you can say can get a look out of it in its full glory. Rekka: 26:17 Yes. Kaelyn: 26:18 And you go through and read this out loud because reading it out loud is the way the reader, like you don't understand that because you've written this, you are so familiar with it. You're skipping and skimming and there's stuff in there that you missing. Rekka: 26:33 Your brain is telling you, it says what you think it says. Kaelyn: 26:35 Exactly. Yeah. You normalize it in your mind. So then you're gonna get line edits I mean that is a lot of, that's tracked changes that's accept,reject, acccept, reject. Okay, wait yeah, I see this is wrong. alright, she told me to put this in here and change it, you know, so I'm not going to lie. It's a process. It's not, it's not super fun, but it's just, Rekka: 26:54 Get your favorite beverage. Kaelyn: 26:56 Get your favorite beverage. Rekka: 26:57 Wear your favorite pants. Kaelyn: 26:58 Your favorite, your favorite non alcoholic beverage. Rekka: 27:01 Yeah. Kaelyn: 27:01 Because doing this drunk is a bad idea, not going to come out great. Rekka: 27:05 Yeah. There will be tears or um, yeah, I don't even know. Kaelyn: 27:09 This is the, this is, I mean this is the, uh, can't even do English good part of the process because then come the copy edits. This is an entirely different person than your editor, generally. The copy editor is the definitive, they are the ones that say no, this is where the comment actually goes. Authors present, company included, have a tendancy Rekka: 27:37 No, you shush! Commas are a spice. Kaelyn: 27:42 Commas, commas are not voice. Rekka: 27:48 [laughter] Kaelyn: 27:48 They are ... Rekka: 27:48 I'm sure I spit water for my nose, but I'm, Kaelyn: 27:52 I swear to God, I'm going to make mugs that every Parvus author, all new authors we sign gets, that says: "Commas are not voice". I understand. It's hard. It's like, no, I want them to see that this is the end of the thought and Rekka: 28:06 Okay, William Shatner, um, Kaelyn: 28:11 [laugher] But your copy editor is the one who's going to go through, they're going to, you know, check your grammar, your punctuation. They are also the one who is going to deal with your style guide. So they're going to say, okay, if it's a dash, it's space dash space or there's no space or there's just a space before and they're going to go through and uniformly format all of that stuff. At some point we will absolutely have a copy editor on the show because they're. Rekka: 28:42 They're special people. Kaelyn: 28:43 They are, no, I mean they are like, it's, I can't do it. Like I won't even try. I mean there are some times, but like I will copy edit, do a rough copy edit of something real quick, that's like a sample chapter because we just got to get it out the door and it's not ... Rekka: 29:01 If you look at a final copy edit, Kaelyn: 29:03 Yeah, and then I'm like, Oh God, I'm stupid. Wow. [laughter] Rekka: 29:07 I don't know how to comma either. Kaelyn: 29:10 Um, so you know, that's that. A good copy editor by the way will also go through and, you know, maybe say like, 'Hey, this sentence was a little confusing to me or maybe separate this into two paragraphs. Um, copy editors are special people who deserve all of the hugs and cookies in the world. Rekka: 29:28 Wait, what happens to the hugs and cookies that were from my Beta readers? Kaelyn: 29:31 They, they hang out with the copy editors. Rekka: 29:33 It's like they just picked the crumbs off the floor. Kaelyn: 29:37 Okay, fine. The Beta readers get, Rekka: 29:39 Copy editors get bacon. Kaelyn: 29:41 There we go. Rekka: 29:41 There we go. Kaelyn: 29:41 I mean everyone knows copy editors love Bacon. So then after that, Rekka: 29:47 Can I just, can I just make a comment? Kaelyn: 29:49 Of course. Rekka: 29:49 If your book reaches copy editing, Yay. Kaelyn: 29:52 Yay! Rekka: 29:53 Cause you're done with the line edits, you're done with the revisions. Because what I was going to say is you're done. Kaelyn: 30:01 Um, copyedit is like that's, I won't say it's carved in stone. Rekka: 30:07 But that book is on its way out the door. Kaelyn: 30:08 But it's heavily etched into clay. If you need to, you can go back and fix something, but we really don't want to do that. Rekka: 30:18 Yeah, minimal touching after. Kaelyn: 30:21 Yeah, exactly. You know there's definitely like there've been times when we've, you know, had to do that and then it's um. For those of you listening at home Rekka is vehemently trying to avoid eye contact with me. Rekka: 30:34 There might have been some last minute issues. Kaelyn: 30:36 And look, it happens and you know, but like copy editing, you are functionally done the book at that point. In the meantime cause you're probably going, okay well I've got all this stuff going on. What's this publisher doing that's supposed to be so great and special? Rekka? Rekka: 30:55 What is the publisher doing Kaelyn? Kaelyn: 30:59 You looked like, you looked like you had a thought. Rekka: 30:59 I was going to say that between getting these revisions back, you've got stretches of time where you're sitting and you probably pacing if you're not sitting. Kaelyn: 31:14 Um, Rekka is about to go into a whole thing. Rekka: 31:16 Yes in the meantime. Kaelyn: 31:18 So we're going to do, Rekka: 31:19 Meanwhile, Kaelyn: 31:21 What the authors in the meantime should be, and then we're going to jump back to what publisher is doing. Because you're right, there are long stretches of time where you're just sitting there waiting to get things back. Rekka: 31:32 Yes. Kaelyn: 31:32 So what are you doing in the meantime? Rekka: 31:34 Well, aside from stressing that things are not actually being looked at. Kaelyn: 31:39 You're sitting there going, oh my God, they hate it. They're, they're figuring out how to cancel my agreement right now. Rekka: 31:43 Yes. Kaelyn: 31:44 This is. Rekka: 31:45 Yeah, there's that. Or there's like, do they, are they working on me? Are they working on the book that comes out next week? Kaelyn: 31:52 Um, if we're still working on the book that comes out next weel ... Rekka: 31:55 Yeah, I know. I know. I know, but you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I know that your calendar has more than my book. Is my book on the front of the table or is someone else's book on the front of the table? And I, if I ask am I going to find out, no, they haven't looked at it and I don't want to know that. So I'm not asking, so I'm just over here panicking. So while you're panicking, uh, try to distract yourself by handling the things that you can take care of at this point. Kaelyn: 32:20 Yeah, because there's a lot you could be doing to help yourself and help you career and your book. Rekka: 32:24 When your book launches, you don't want that to be the first day you go, Huh. So should I do like a website or something? [laughter] Kaelyn: 32:31 So, like people are asking me like, how did I get in touch with me? I guess they should have Twitter. Rekka: 32:36 Yeah. Maybe a twitter or I don't know. Um, what are readers even? You know, like be on, be public. Kaelyn: 32:46 I mean, what is a book? Rekka: 32:49 Well that's, that's another episode, that's a five episode series on what is a book. Kaelyn: 32:55 The metaphysical. But there will be alcohol involved. There will be crying. Rekka: 32:59 I'm looking forward to that one. But so, so there are things, you know, your social media platform, you don't have to do every social media venue out there, but pick the ones that you feel comfortable expressing yourself as your, your public persona. If you are using a pen name to hide your identity, now's a good time to start dusting the tracks and making sure that you've sealed those, those ridges tight and everything like that. Kaelyn: 33:25 Yeah, by the way, now's a good time to start establishing your pen name. Rekka: 33:28 Right. So you don't want on your book launch day for someone to come looking for you on Twitter and see that you have exactly one tweet, which is please buy my book. Kaelyn: 33:38 I mean, that's a good tweet. Rekka: 33:39 It's a good tweet. Kaelyn: 33:40 It could be multiple of that. Rekka: 33:40 The publisher likes that can be your pinned tweet, but by then, you know, you can start talking about how excited you are. Um, if your cover reveal has just gone out from your publisher, do not, do not preempt the cover reveal that your publisher has scheduled to do, not do that. Kaelyn: 33:58 They're going to be nice and show it to you beforehand. But you know, that's, that's under the hat. Rekka: 34:02 Um find other authors in your genre, um, the, the people who wrote the books, which are your books, comps you, you know, like follow them. Um, don't go like stalking their followers and, and, and attacking people in saying like, please come follow me, you, or anything like, you know, don't be, don't make it weird. Kaelyn: 34:20 Don't have to be weird about it. Rekka: 34:21 But, you know, start to build a following, start to follow other people, start to interact with conversations that are not personal conversations and start to tweet about your book, about the process, about your emotions as an author because you want to be a real person when someone comes looking at your Twitter profiles. Kaelyn: 34:40 So, um, but also there's other people that you may meet in your life. Rekka: 34:45 Yeah. So I was getting to that, but okay. So I was using Twitter for example. But you don't have to use Twitter. If you are more comfortable on Facebook for some unknown reason, my opinion slightly interjected there or, Kaelyn: 34:57 No, I mean great because then all your data's going to be given out to a lot of people. So it's actually really good publicity. Rekka: 35:04 Is that what that is? Didn't feel like really great publicity. Kaelyn: 35:07 That's not how that works? Rekka: 35:08 There's Instagram, there is tumbler, there is um, it depends on what your, where your audiences and if you read in the genre that you write in, you probably already know where that audience is. Kaelyn: 35:18 Yeah, of course. Rekka: 35:18 You might already be there. So pick your um, your social media profiles and I think it's a good idea, before, I know Kaelyn was trying to lead the witness, but um, before you start attending industry events, if you already have a Twitter handle, you are going to meet people and you are going to become mutuals at these events, if you, if you hit it off, so have a profile that doesn't make you look like a ghost. This is a good thing. So, so get this kind of stuff. Have your website, your website doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be just a word press website Kaelyn: 35:52 I mean, you can, Rekka: 35:52 With a little bit of information about you. Kaelyn: 35:55 Square Space. Rekka: 35:55 Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I need to say it, Kaelyn: 35:58 But create like a very basic, you know, here's a little about me. Here's my book. Here's some links to where you can buy it. Rekka: 36:03 Yup. Just a clean layout, mobile friendly. And because someone looks you up while you're there, standing in front of you or standing in line to talk to you some like a panel or something. So, but making it, give yourself the online presence that you want while you have control over it. Kaelyn: 36:17 Yes Rekka: 36:17 And then, um, and that's a good project to keep you occupied while your publisher is doing whatever the next step is before they need your input again. And then do look around for industry events. Um, ones that have more reader attendance are going to be the ones that you want to focus on more when you already have a book. Kaelyn: 36:37 Yeah. Rekka: 36:38 Because a reader can't do anything with your, with the knowledge that we have a contract, Kaelyn: 36:42 With who you are. Rekka: 36:42 You know, so, um, go make friends with other writers. And this is so precious to have other writer friends because one of these people understand what you're going through every step of the way they have been there. Kaelyn: 36:51 It's a support group. Rekka: 36:52 It's a hive mind and it's also like a herd immunity sort of situation. Kaelyn: 36:57 Oh my God, I love that. Yeah. Rekka: 36:58 Yes, that's exactly, that's exactly what it is. And it's a group of people who know what you're going through and sometimes they can pull you aside when you were having a breakdown and they pet you gently, Kaelyn: 37:07 Deep breaths, deep breaths. Rekka: 37:07 And they serve you, your, your bacon and your cookies and your hugs and Kaelyn: 37:10 Tea, tea is important. Rekka: 37:12 Okay, fine. Some people drink coffee, Kaelyn Kaelyn: 37:17 Coffee, whatever, whatever hot beverage distilled from plant life ... Rekka: 37:18 Your cozy beverage of choice. Yes. Hey, sometimes it's beef broth, sometimes beef broth, this is what I need. Kaelyn: 37:26 It's distilled from a living thing. Cozy beverage of choice Rekka: 37:28 Cozy beverage of choice, that's the term. So we, um, you know, we as authors, write in this desolate loneliness, like even if you're surrounded by other people, if you're getting the work done, chances are you're silent and you're staring at a screen and you are insular inside your mind. So that's really ... Kaelyn: 37:45 It's very isolating. Rekka: 37:47 It's really refreshing to go somewhere where you see that other people are doing this too, that you are not alone in feeling this way. And when you walk into that room and you go, oh my God, I don't belong here, every single person in that room is feeling the same way. Kaelyn: 38:02 But further, you're wrong. Rekka: 38:04 Also, everyone in that room is wrong and they will tell each other that, authors who are friends with other authors are like the most beautiful people. Kaelyn: 38:12 No, it's great. Rekka: 38:13 And yeah, so, so go make some friends at conferences. Um, it's a whole other thing that we're not going to dive into on this, like how to network at conferences. Kaelyn: 38:23 We're going to talk about it at some point. Rekka: 38:24 And we will talk about that. Um, you're not there to sell your book. You've already sold your book. You're not there to, um, to chase agents into bathrooms. Kaelyn: 38:36 Don't do that, ever. Rekka: 38:37 So please don't, um, or anyone don't chase anyone into a bathroom. Kaelyn: 38:42 That's actually, that's a good point. Rekka: 38:42 Unless they say, please follow me into this bathroom, I need your help with my t shirt tag or something. Anyway. Um, yes, you're going there to be a real genuine, um, trustworthy person. So that's how you behave when you were there. And then we'll go into that in another episode, about Kaelyn: 38:58 Maybe when we're at the Nebulas? That would be a great, live from the Nebulas. Rekka: 39:01 And I do have an article on SFWA blog about it. I believe it is called 'A Quantum Residents at the Nebulas'. Kaelyn: 39:11 That's fantastic. Yeah. So go check that out. Rekka: 39:13 So I'll link to that in the show notes, but it is, it gives you an idea of what it's like to be among other people who are more creative in a similar way as you. Kaelyn: 39:21 Yeah. Again, yeah, I think that's a great idea. We'll do that at the, Nebulas so another episode to look forward to. Rekka: 39:26 Yes. Kaelyn: 39:29 Umm, maybe we'll grab a few people and to have a conversation that'll, that'll be fun. So that's what you as an author can be doing. In the meantime, what your publisher is doing is all sorts of background stuff that you will, you get checkins and updates about. But really what they're going to be most concerned about is you writing and finishing the book. So, but in what's going on in the background is your publisher is dealing with marketing, they're figuring out, um, you know, how to market this book, who to market it to what the key demographics are. Um, and then a bunch of things are going to come from that. A big one is cover art. You know, that is, that is a huge important thing. I have sad news for all of you authors who just were sketching, you know, your dreams of what the book's going to look like. You don't get a say really. Um, you know, of course you'll get a look at it. You'll get, you know, some progress and updates. But at the end of the day, your publisher is the one that does your cover art. Because for a lot of reasons, but one of the big ones is they know what they're doing. Rekka: 40:39 Right. And it's a piece of marketing. It's not just the duvé on your bed. Kaelyn: 40:43 Yeah. And I'd say like, actually that was something that even me, it took a little while for me to get over where like I'm seeing cover art from books I've worked on and I'm like, well that's not quite right. And I'm going, I'm getting Kaelyn, that's not the important part. The important part is this looks awesome and you want to pick it up. Rekka: 41:01 Um, that's a really tough hurdle to get yourself over mentally. Kaelyn: 41:05 Oh, it's very, that is, you know what I have to say that is one of the things I found that authors really have the most trouble with because again, it goes back to the personal, this is very personal. And also I think, cause I know I do it when I'm reading submissions and when I'm getting excited about something, I'm picturing what the cover is going to look like in my head. Rekka: 41:23 Yeah. So you know, the author's doing that. Kaelyn: 41:25 The author's absolutely doing it and um, Rekka: 41:27 And they've been working on it longer. So they, they've been dedicating their hearts to some vision that is not coming to happen. Kaelyn: 41:35 Now, I mean, I will say, you know, we, when we do these, most of the times the response I get back is, oh my God, that's gorgeous. I never would have even conceived of that stuff. You know, trust me, the publisher is not going to screw you over on cover art because they want it to also be gorgeous and represent the book. Rekka: 41:52 But more importantly, they want it to sell the book. Kaelyn: 41:54 Yes, so this is big part of the marketing. Um, but in the meantime, they're also, you know, reaching out to industry contacts and their contacts, blogs, uh, publication magazines. Anybody who has a lot of attention that does reviews, they're going to be getting ARCs, advanced reader copies out to everyone, you know, to take a look at and hopefully getting, generating some buzz, getting some good feedback. You know, there's all kinds of social media now that's just based around reading and what you reading and everything. So you know, they're going to be putting these things out on to anyone who review books and like, you know, getting blurbs for the book. Um, in the meantime they're also writing back copy. Writing back copy is really hard. Rekka: 42:39 It's a whole other thing. As much as you dread writing your query letter. Kaelyn: 42:43 Oh God, yeah, that's the editors version of the query letter is like writing, so I do understand your pain a little bit because I have to do back copy for the books I work on a lot. Rekka: 42:51 And, and you print how many copies of that book? Kaelyn: 42:56 More people are going to see my back copy then your your letter. So yeah. And then they're doing publicity. They're getting everything psyched up for the, for the prelaunch. And really the biggest thing is trying to generate buzz and trying to get preorders because that is what is going to help make your book successful. So that's what's going on in the meantime. So after copy edits, everything's done, it goes to layout. Layout is going to do what layout does. They're going to get the book already formatted to publish. They're going to add any art or um, it's a big letters at the Rekka: 43:31 Drop caps, Kaelyn: 43:31 Drop caps. Those, I should know that, um, you know, they're going to take care of all of that to get the lay out going and then you're book's pretty much ready to go. There are a bunch of other steps that lead up to the release of the book that also have to do with marketing. You know, they might ask you to, uh, write a blog post for this website. You did that right? Rekka: 43:55 I wrote quite a lot of them. Kaelyn: 43:56 Yeah. Rekka: 43:57 And let me tell you, just like switching your mindset from writing a book to a query letter, writing a nonfiction blog posts like a worst, I, it feels like writing an essay for a teacher all over again. Kaelyn: 44:07 So wait, I don't put aliens in this one? Rekka: 44:10 Well, I mean, I did. Kaelyn: 44:11 Okay. Rekka: 44:12 So, but I mean, so a lot of these are nonfiction articles about like your writing process or anything you discovered about yourself or are relating the aliens to some tidbit about your process or something like that. Kaelyn: 44:29 This is, this is where we're trying to humanize the authors. And I don't need that in the like make them seem like people Rekka: 44:37 We're totally normal, who said we aren't? Kaelyn: 44:39 But make it so, people like to connect on that level and see the process. And it's great because it gives you a little insight into how everyone's working and what they're doing. Rekka: 44:51 And when the author can like express that they are passionate about their book, Kaelyn: 44:54 Exactly. Rekka: 44:54 Then other people are interested in that and being and reading it and also being passionate about the same book. Kaelyn: 45:00 Um, you know, there may be, depending on the scale and the release of the book, maybe you'd be asked to do interviews beforehand, uh they might, you know, then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happened after release. But your publisher is in the meantime just getting everything ready. They're dealing with preorders. If your book is being released to be sold in bookstores, through a distributor, they are dealing with that. That is, that is a whole long process. Um, they're, uh, getting everything set up for ebooks and ebook preorders and just getting everything ready so that when it's launch day, it's ready to go. Social media posts, reviews and magazines and other publications. Rekka: 45:45 And timing them to like keep the traffic coming for a few days. Kaelyn: 45:49 They're definitely thinking, what's the best way we can get the most attention on this book for the longest amount of time. And again, if you have an agent, there'll be involved in helping with that as well. Um, so then it's your book, Birthday. Your Book Day. Rekka: 46:05 Yes. And that was a weird day. Kaelyn: 46:09 Yeah. Rekka: 46:09 Because there's not actually a lot going on. Kaelyn: 46:12 Yeah, you kind of, wa- wake up and feel like the world should be a little different. Rekka: 46:16 This is, I call it the, um, the birthday Princess Syndrome. Kaelyn: 46:20 Yeah. Rekka: 46:20 Like I always, I always looked at movies and TV shows and saw that like on somebody's birthday, they were center of attention and they wore fabulous clothing. And on my book birthday, I got up and I went to work. Kaelyn: 46:36 Yup. Rekka: 46:36 And I sat there and I reloaded and social media all day. It was incredibly, it was like the least focused day I'd experienced in months. It was kind of horrible. Kaelyn: 46:47 Books are released on Tuesdays, Rekka: 46:51 Yeah. Kaelyn: 46:51 And so for most people it's Rekka: 46:53 It's your day job. Kaelyn: 46:54 A regular Tuesday Rekka: 46:55 And you somehow try to make it through your regular Tuesday. But all you can think about is your book is out and you're waiting for someone to text you like Amazon rankings or or something. You're waiting for someone to tag you on Twitter or Instagram and not happening. And it's already 7:00 AM. How come nobody is celebrating? Kaelyn: 47:14 Why has no one been waiting outside Barnes and noble to buy this? Rekka: 47:17 Why didn't someone bring me flowers at the office? And that's sort of the thing is like every birthday that I had, this expectation that I would be the center of attention, I would end up in tears. And it's very easy to have that same expectation and results on the day that your book comes out. Like you're a published author and the worst thing is going to work. And having some, the coworker say, Oh, I guess you're quitting your day job now. It's like, well thanks. Kaelyn: 47:41 I am not. Rekka: 47:42 Um, so you're angry with me for writing a book. You have a complete misconception of how this goes and you're probably not even gonna read the thing, [laughter]. Kaelyn: 47:52 So, that is kind of, you know, that's where we are, it ends with you being the most happy you've ever been, but also really sad. Rekka: 47:59 Also welcome to publishing. Kaelyn: 48:02 This is publishing. Rekka: 48:02 And they will, and you will be asked so many times that day. How do you feel? So you might want to write that blog post ahead of time too because they don't want to know the truth. Kaelyn: 48:12 Um, so that's kind of a, you know, that's the rough process. Um, like we said, glossed over, you know, a lot of stuff. Just really quickly hitting it because we're going to talk about all of this in more detail down the line. This was sort of a long introductory into this is what this podcast is. I mean, we're not going to do in an order. Rekka: 48:33 No. Kaelyn: 48:34 We're going to jump around a little bit. Rekka: 48:35 Because we're going to miss something and then if we do it in order, then we can't go back. So it's just going to be filling in. Kaelyn: 48:39 Also it's more fun to kind of, you know, Rekka: 48:41 Like what are we really talking about? Kaelyn: 48:43 Yeah like, I've got something to say about this. Rekka: 48:45 Big mood. Kaelyn: 48:46 Yes, yes, exactly. Um, so that's, that's kind of where we're going to leave you for this episode. Um, you know, we hope this was at least maybe a little informative. Rekka: 48:57 And once again, like if you heard a step in this process where you're like, I didn't know about that. Kaelyn: 49:01 Or I'd like to hear more about that. Rekka: 49:03 Definitely that. Or, um, if you are feeling more confident as a result because you didn't know all this stuff, like, you know, good for you. But I mean, like we want to hear from you what's useful, what's informative, what's startling and a little bit terrifying. At WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram feedback at Wmbcast.com definitely reach out. And of course, if you're a patron on patrion.com forward slash WMB cast, you can interact with us there and we'll probably take questions for future episodes. Kaelyn: 49:33 Oh definitely, yeah. Rekka: 49:33 You have some level patrons later on, um, once we start building up a community there, obviously today's day one. So, yeah, or we don't have great expectations for today cause you know, we try to be realistic about our launch days but um. Kaelyn: 49:47 No, it's, I mean we, you know, we keep saying this but we really just want to hammer it home, so much of where this came from was wanting to be a resource and build a community that's active and that we can engage wit. Rekka: 50:01 And have these conversations. Kaelyn: 50:03 Exactly how these conversations about what don't you know, what scares you, what you know, what is holding you back from trying to do this? What part are you stuck on? Rekka: 50:13 What have you heard conflicting information on? Kaelyn: 50:16 Yeah. And look, here's the thing, you're not going to insult either of us with any questions, you know, Rekka's a writer I work in publishing. I know that, I - I've made peace with that a lot of people that are going to listen to this are going to be on the writing side of things. And you know what, that's great. That's what I'm hoping for. So, you know, I'm not going to be insulted by anything that you know, comes our way. Don't be rude, obviously. Rekka: 50:40 But let's be decent. Kaelyn: 50:41 Yeah. But, um, yeah, you know, if you're like, if you have a question like, well how come I need a publisher for this? I love it to answer that. Rekka: 50:51 Right. Kaelyn: 50:51 And, another a qualification. You know, if you're interested in self publishing, this still also could be helpful for you. Rekka: 50:56 And I have a self published title, I have future plans for self published titles. Kaelyn: 51:00 Yes. Rekka: 51:00 This is like this is a safe space for every path through the book creation process. Kaelyn: 51:06 Yeah. That's why it's called We Make Books because we all make books in different ways, different capacities and at different points in the process. But everyone is involved making books. So we really want to hear from everyone is, is what we're getting at here. Rekka: 51:23 Please reach out to us. Kaelyn: 51:24 Yeah. Um, uh, Rekka and my Twitter's are both linked in the uh, Rekka: 51:30 On the front page of Patreon, it's on the bio of both Instagram and Twitter. So you can find us. Kaelyn: 51:35 Yeah, and you know, you can and you know, go through the podcast thing, but you know, you can also reach out to us directly, Rekka: 51:40 If you have comments specifically or a question specifically for one of us. Kaelyn: 51:44 We're out there. Rekka: 51:45 Yes, Kaelyn: 51:46 And we can't wait to hear from you. Rekka: 51:47 And so we will talk to you again in the next episode and that will be, if you are listening to this on launch day coming up very, very shortly, Kaelyn: 51:54 Yeah, like queued up, hopefully next. Rekka: 51:57 Immediately next. Kaelyn: 51:57 So stop, listening to this and go enjoy the next one. Rekka: 52:00 Skip ahead. Kaelyn: 52:01 Thanks everyone.  

Scripture reading: Luke 1 vs 36-38 Inspiration sermon of Mal 4 vs 5-6 : Jehovah of Miracles. WMB: 59-1126

White Mans Burden is a podcast by Amish Patel & Vandad Kardar where we discuss all things colonialisim, politics, theories and opinions on all things about opressive structures WE ARE DECOLONIZING THE MIND! To support us go to www.patreon.com/whitemansburden WMB thanks our production sponsors Jason Wren www.jasonwren.com for all your marketing, strategy, art work, cutom branding and alot more! 25 years experience and international award winning advertiser and more! Michael Flax FLAX FILMS www.michaelflax.com for all film work either massive block buster, or indie art house nothing is too big or too small ! Gujrati Foods (THEY FEED US AND ITS AMAZING!) Kenwood Self Tapes www.facebook.com/kenwoodselftapes for all your self tape needs, wether you are an established working actor or just breaking into the biz, your next self tape audition needs to be a kenwood self tape once again this is all made possible by YOU www.patreon.com/whitemansburden (YES I KNOW I WROTE IT TWICE ILL WRIGHT IT 800000 MORE TIMES TILL YOU PAY UP M.F) - Vandad

On today's episode, we discuss midstream pipeline companies and the opportunities they present for investors. In addition, we discuss how the fires blazing through California are affecting the state's largest utility Stocks Mentioned: PCG, CEQP, CHK, RDS-A, RDS-B, SHLX, WMB, BIP, ENB, PAA, MMP Check out more of our content here: TMF's podcast portal YouTube Twitter Or, reach us by email @ IndustryFocus@fool.com  

Trading Block: Snap stock rises after company announces new Amazon partnership; Earnings: Walt Disney Co (DIS) Odd Block: Aggressive call sale in TransUnion (TRU), call sale in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB) and puts/calls deal in Sirius XM Holdings Inc. (SIRI). Strategy Block: Uncle Mike Tosaw discusses both trading in a low Vol market and how to pay for puts. Mail Block: Is it just me? Question from Niny3 - Is it me? I seem to only get filled on my limit option order when the stock moves aggressively against me. At that point I'm almost better off canceling the order. What am I doing wrong? Should I just go to market? Around the Block/This Week in the Markets: Sep 25 - Consumer Confidence Sep 26 - New Home Sales, FOMC Meeting Sep 27 - Jobless Claims, GDP, Durable Goods Sep 28 - Personal Income, Consumer Sentiment

Trading Block: Snap stock rises after company announces new Amazon partnership; Earnings: Walt Disney Co (DIS) Odd Block: Aggressive call sale in TransUnion (TRU), call sale in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB) and puts/calls deal in Sirius XM Holdings Inc. (SIRI). Strategy Block: Uncle Mike Tosaw discusses both trading in a low Vol market and how to pay for puts. Mail Block: Is it just me? Question from Niny3 - Is it me? I seem to only get filled on my limit option order when the stock moves aggressively against me. At that point I'm almost better off canceling the order. What am I doing wrong? Should I just go to market? Around the Block/This Week in the Markets: Sep 25 - Consumer Confidence Sep 26 - New Home Sales, FOMC Meeting Sep 27 - Jobless Claims, GDP, Durable Goods Sep 28 - Personal Income, Consumer Sentiment

Connecticut attorney Stephen Wright and Investigator Bill Paatalo join Neil Garfield to discuss JPMorgan Chase issues. The WaMu/FDIC/Chase pattern where JPMorgan Chase claims sole ownership of specific Washington Mutual Bank loans by virtue of the “Purchase & Assumption Agreement” (PAA) with the FDIC, has now demonstated that no schedule or inventory of assets listing any specific WMB mortgage loan acquired by JPMC exists, or has ever been produced or disclosed. This finding shows that the vast majority of residential mortgage loans were securitized through WaMu's “Off-Balance Sheet Activities,” meaning WMB sold their loans prior to the FDIC Receivership. Many of these prior sales transactions by WMB to private investors went undocumented, and were kept outside the prevue of regulators, the borrowers, and the general public.  Listen in for more information on the WAMU-JPMorgan Chase illusion For roughly the past 8-years, Chase has been foreclosing on thousands of these previously sold WMB loans in its own name as mortgagee and beneficiary of the security instruments, when by Chase's own admissions to numerous borrowers, the loans were sold to private investors. Attorney Stephen Wright in Monroe, Connecticut: Wright Law Firm 203-261-3050 spwrightlawfirm@gmail.com   Investigator Bill Paatalo at BP Investigative Agency: http://bpinvestigativeagency.com/contact-us/ (406) 328-4075

Welcome to a special LIVE Periscope edition of the Investing Happy Hour presented by Tusk Media.Featured Topics: Markets finish strong for a 4th consecutive day, today's Laggers and Leaders, and Andrew's analysis of Trump's VP selection.Stocks: DLR, WYNN, SWN, NRG, WMB, MET, LNC, QRVOHow is our Pokéfolio doing? Will MarketWatch actually come onto The Investing Podcast?Follow us on Twitter @TuskMediaLLCCheck out our video archive: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1iK2MbBjXGCyni_CKxB9Q

Trading Block: Stocks to watch include: Tesla, Zulilly, Pentair, and Estee Lauder. Gold trading outlook: Futures extend gains on US rates speculations. U.S. stocks rise as investors turn focus on economic strength.   Odd Block: Call spreads go up in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB), giant call roll in Hartford Financial Services Group, Inc. (HIG), and calls trade in Xilinx Inc. (XLNX). Strategy Block: Tosaw discusses when to roll and when not to roll. Mystery Block: Sebastian discusses his thoughts on trading and how it relates to putt-putt golf. Around the Block: Be cautious. Fed minutes might be interesting.

Trading Block: Stocks to watch include: Tesla, Zulilly, Pentair, and Estee Lauder. Gold trading outlook: Futures extend gains on US rates speculations. U.S. stocks rise as investors turn focus on economic strength. Odd Block: Call spreads go up in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB), giant call roll in Hartford Financial Services Group, Inc. (HIG), and calls trade in Xilinx Inc. (XLNX). Strategy Block: Tosaw discusses when to roll and when not to roll. Mystery Block: Sebastian discusses his thoughts on trading and how it relates to putt-putt golf.   Around the Block: Be cautious. Fed minutes might be interesting.

Trading Block: Thanks to everyone that came out last week to our live show! We had a wonderful seeing all of our listeners in person.   Earnings today after the bell: Brookdale Senior Living, Avis Budget Group, Allstate Corp, General Growth Properties. Media & retail highlight earnings this week: CVS, Office Depot Inc., Walt Disney Co. Highlights of this week: Wednesday: Tesla, Time Warner, and Twenty-First Century Fox; Thursday: Allergan        Odd Block: Calls trade in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB), calls trade in NorthStar Asset Management (NSAM), and calls and puts trade in Merck & Co., Inc. (MRK) Strategy Block: Tosaw discusses the importance of patience, especially when trading. Mail Block: Listener questions and comments Question from Beacher454 - Last week Mark S. said the free options training is ok, but you need paid training to really make money. Can you give an example how paid training is better?   Around the Block: Upcoming earnings: Disney, Tesla, Office Depot. Plus, macroeconomics. Options on VIX weekly futures. Will they? Won't they? 

Trading Block: Thanks to everyone that came out last week to our live show! We had a wonderful seeing all of our listeners in person.   Earnings today after the bell: Brookdale Senior Living, Avis Budget Group, Allstate Corp, General Growth Properties. Media & retail highlight earnings this week: CVS, Office Depot Inc., Walt Disney Co. Highlights of this week: Wednesday: Tesla, Time Warner, and Twenty-First Century Fox; Thursday: Allergan        Odd Block: Calls trade in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB), calls trade in NorthStar Asset Management (NSAM), and calls and puts trade in Merck & Co., Inc. (MRK) Strategy Block: Tosaw discusses the importance of patience, especially when trading. Mail Block: Listener questions and comments Question from Beacher454 - Last week Mark S. said the free options training is ok, but you need paid training to really make money. Can you give an example how paid training is better?   Around the Block: Upcoming earnings: Disney, Tesla, Office Depot. Plus, macroeconomics. Options on VIX weekly futures. Will they? Won't they? 

Options Oddities 209: EWG, HRB, WMB   Unusual Activity for June 22, 2015:   Call buyers jump in iShares MSCI Germany Index (EWG) Calls and stock go up in H&R Block (HRB) Puts trade in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB)

Trading Block: Rally ho on the street. Fitbit IPO prices at $20 a share, above expectations.  Fitbit Inc., the maker of wearable fitness-tracking devices, priced its initial public offering above its estimated range at $20 a share, raising $732 million. That makes it the biggest tech IPO this year and gives it a market cap of roughly $4 billion.Apple Bands - Apple (AAPL) shares are in focus in early trading. The tech giant is reportedly amassing major profits from its Apple Watch band. Reuters reports that nearly 22% percent of Apple Watch buy ers purchase one or more spare bands. Apple has sold approximately 2.8 million watches since of mid-June, according to an estimate from research firm Slice Intelligence. Oracle tumbles - shares are tanking in early trading. Shares of Oracle tanked 7.6% in premarket action after the software company late Wednesday reported a drop in fourth-quarter earnings. Odd Block: Calls trade in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB), calls trade in Toll Brothers Inc. (TOL), and puts trade in iShares MSCI EAFE Index Fund (EFA)     Mail Block: Listener questions and comments Question from TennisGr8t - Longos Odd Block show. If technical analysis is not good for options how then do you get trade ideas? Are any of the newsletters that get hawked daily any good? I am leaning NO. Great show gents. Question from Anthony Sontakis - Hi, this message pertains to futures options. I currently trade futures options on Tradestation Futures+ platform. I was hoping someone might be able to recommend a Futures Options trading platform for a solo trader like myself. I need the ability to enter advanced orders like OCO and OSO based on the underlying price, and I need the ability for profit/loss graphs, neither of which features Tradestation platform supports right now. The only platform I have found that supports what I need is OptionsCity, but the pricing is for institutions ($2500/month) - that is cost prohibitive for me. Are there any good but affordable platforms out there to trade Futures Options for a little guy like me? Thanks, Anthony     Around the Block: Oracle, Rite-Aid earnings. Continuing to punt on the Fed. NASDAQ closes at record high. Another summit on the Greece bailout.

Trading Block: Rally ho on the street. Fitbit IPO prices at $20 a share, above expectations. Fitbit Inc., the maker of wearable fitness-tracking devices, priced its initial public offering above its estimated range at $20 a share, raising $732 million. That makes it the biggest tech IPO this year and gives it a market cap of roughly $4 billion. Apple Bands - Apple (AAPL) shares are in focus in early trading. The tech giant is reportedly amassing major profits from its Apple Watch band. Reuters reports that nearly 22% percent of Apple Watch buyers purchase one or more spare bands. Apple has sold approximately 2.8 million watches since of mid-June, according to an estimate from research firm Slice Intelligence. Oracle tumbles - shares are tanking in early trading. Shares of Oracle tanked 7.6% in premarket action after the software company late Wednesday reported a drop in fourth-quarter earnings. Odd Block: Calls trade in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB), calls trade in Toll Brothers Inc. (TOL), and puts trade in iShares MSCI EAFE Index Fund (EFA)     Mail Block: Listener questions and comments: Question from TennisGr8t - Longos Odd Block show. If technical analysis is not good for options how then do you get trade ideas? Are any of the newsletters that get hawked daily any good? I am leaning NO. Great show gents. Question from Anthony Sontakis - Hi, this message pertains to futures options. I currently trade futures options on Tradestation Futures+ platform. I was hoping someone might be able to recommend a Futures Options trading platform for a solo trader like myself. I need the ability to enter advanced orders like OCO and OSO based on the underlying price, and I need the ability for profit/loss graphs, neither of which features Tradestation platform supports right now. The only platform I have found that supports what I need is OptionsCity, but the pricing is for institutions ($2500/month) - that is cost prohibitive for me. Are there any good but affordable platforms out there to trade Futures Options for a little guy like me? Thanks, Anthony     Around the Block: Oracle, Rite-Aid earnings. Continuing to punt on the Fed. NASDAQ closes at record high. Another summit on the Greece bailout.

Options Oddities 198: WMB, VALE, RSX   Unusual Activity for June 5, 2015:   Call over writer in Williams Companies (WMB) Bearish put spreads in Vale SA (VALE) Put stupid trades in Market Vectors Russia ETF (RSX)

Options Oddities 183: BBBY, MT, WMB   Unusual Activity for May 14, 2015:   Ratio put spreads trade in Bed Bath & Beyond, Inc. (BBBY) Upside call buying in ArcelorMittal SA (MT) Call rollers in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB)

Options Oddities 125: WMB, GDP, CROX   Unusual Activity for February 18, 2015:   Calls trade in Williams Comp Inc. (WMB) Call buying in Goodrich Petroleum Corp. (GDP) Call traders in Crocs Inc. (CROX)

Options Oddities 121: WMB, EWZ, SWC   Unusual Activity for February 11, 2015:   Ratio spreads in Williams Companies Inc. (WMB) Put buyers in iShares MSCI Brazil Index (EWZ) Put spreads in Stillwater Mining Company (SWC)

Options Oddities 119: WMB, KKR, TCK   Unusual Activity for February 9, 2015:   Calls trade in Williams Comp Inc. (WMB) Call buying in KKR and Co. LP (KKR) Put seller in Teck Resources LTD (TCK)

Option Block 327: You, Too, Can Be an FBI Junior Agent Trading Block: March options volume rose 14%. ADV was 16,931,924 contracts, equity options volume was 321,641,596 contracts. FBI to investigate high frequency trading - the FBI wants your help!   Odd Block: Big call purchases in DFC Global (DLLR), buy-write in Williams Companies, Inc. (WMB), bullish bet in Resolute Energy (REN), and big block of puts trade in Corning (GLW) Xpress Block: Google now trades on an adjusted basis: Class A and Class C shares.   Mail Block: Tell us what you want to know. Question from Wael Randa - What service do you offer to help options traders. Also I am looking for a scanner to spot big order block by investors. Any free or paid service. Thanks a lot, Samuel. Question from John King - @Options could you discuss trade entry for Iron butterfly/condor (ignoring commish)-all at once vs. leg verticals vs. buy strangle then sell straddle? Question from Fred Blackes - Geez, you guys are great.  Why is it that you were the only ones who read the FIO options actions April 25 2013 correctly?  Everybody else had the trader/Hedgie buying the Sept 24 calls. Do you offer any service for learning/advisory     Around the Block: S&P 500 hits another record. Unemployment report Friday. Earnings coming up next week. 

Option Block 327: You, Too, Can Be an FBI Junior Agent Trading Block: March options volume rose 14%. ADV was 16,931,924 contracts, equity options volume was 321,641,596 contracts. FBI to investigate high frequency trading - the FBI wants your help!   Odd Block: Big call purchases in DFC Global (DLLR), buy-write in Williams Companies, Inc. (WMB), bullish bet in Resolute Energy (REN), and big block of puts trade in Corning (GLW) Xpress Block: Google now trades on an adjusted basis: Class A and Class C shares.   Mail Block: Tell us what you want to know. Question from Wael Randa - What service do you offer to help options traders. Also I am looking for a scanner to spot big order block by investors. Any free or paid service. Thanks a lot, Samuel. Question from John King - @Options could you discuss trade entry for Iron butterfly/condor (ignoring commish)-all at once vs. leg verticals vs. buy strangle then sell straddle? Question from Fred Blackes - Geez, you guys are great.  Why is it that you were the only ones who read the FIO options actions April 25 2013 correctly?  Everybody else had the trader/Hedgie buying the Sept 24 calls. Do you offer any service for learning/advisory     Around the Block: S&P 500 hits another record. Unemployment report Friday. Earnings coming up next week. 

Uncle Sam Wants You To Pay… BUT…  WMB IS HERE TO HELP… DON’T LEAVE MONEY ON THE TABLE Butterfly Evolution welcomes Brenda Carol Malone & Monica Walker owners of WMB TAX & FINANCIAL SOLUTION.  The owners are two phenomenal women with a mission to induct business through education, ministry and integrity.  WMB (Women Ministering Business) is a member of National Association of Tax Professionals with more than 20 years of experience with a major tax company.  WMB is open and available year round.  Services to name a few include but are not limited to:  Business And Individual Tax Returns [Electronic Filing Available] Bookkeeping For Small Business No Money Upfront [Funds can be deducted from refund] Assist Clients With All IRS Audits Direct Deposit Available WMB will answer your questions and provide the changes and updates for the filing year.  Prepare to tune in Saturday January 25th 10:30 AM CST.  Listen by phone at 818.691-7406 or by selecting this link.  To contact WMB, you submit your questions to:  WMBTAX@1040.com

Topics covered today – Arab Spring, Iran, Israeli, Pakistan, Afghanistan, WMD / Chemical & Biological Warfare, China’s Pollution Problems. You can find Mr. Keller's book “Hollow Strength” on Amazon.com