Podcasts about oh god

Sunak is trying to act tough on Russia and China but being bullied over wind farms at home. Can he shake off the image of being a weak link? Plus, we discuss the census results – and unpack the reaction to England and Wales being minority Christian nations. This week's guest is New Statesman's deputy political editor Rachel Wearmouth. “You lose credit with the voters and then you lose credit within the party.“ – Rachel Wearmouth  “Conservative MPs are probably looking at a long period in opposition and maybe they don't fancy it.” – Rachel Wearmouth “Keir's boring accountant vibe definitely beats Sunak's boring carphone salesman energy.” – Alex Andreou “China is so big, we need some level of engagement and despite the tough guy schtick Sunak is warming Chinese relations.” – Alex Andreou www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Get our new merch here: https://podmarket.co.uk/  Presented by Dorian Lynskey, Ian Dunt and Alex Andreou. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Jet Gerbertson and Alex Rees. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Robin Leeburn. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Advent begins with a look at Genesis and the candle of hope. Sunday, November 27, 2022   Sermon audio:   Sermon video:   The post Uh-Oh! God’s People/God’s Mission appeared first on Church Without Walls.

The Manston scandal and Braverman's bluster lay our disastrous immigration policy bare. And just when we need more workers, Keir Starmer comes out against looser rules. Why can't we talk honestly about this most emotive issue? Plus: will we ever defeat NIMBYism? And Planet Deepfake: why AI-generated images and video will soon outnumber human-made content.  Get your perfect OGWN Christmas presents at podmarket.co.uk “When the Chinese government sends soup kitchens to the demonstrations, that's the sign to go home or you'll get shot.” – Gavin Esler “We don't actually live in a sea of bigotry like politicians think we do.” – Hannah Fearn “Any content can now be generated perfectly by AI. This is a huge turning point for human communication.” – Nina Schick  “In Glasgow, you're a Weegee. And if you're a refugee, you're accepted as a Refuweegee.” – Gavin Esler “We will experience more technological change in our lifetime than in the entirety of human history.” – Nina Schick Written and presented by Ros Taylor with Hannah Fearn, Gavin Esler and Nina Schick. Producers: Alex Rees and Jet Geburtson. Assistant producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Theme music by Cornershop. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when Sepp Blatter and FIFA make a film? Today, Pete and Luke find out...We're releasing bonus weekly editions of Pete's Film Club on our Patreon throughout the World Cup. Here's a taste of our first episode out today, where Pete and Luke review FIFA's self-funded film about its own history. It's United Passions! Oh God.Sign up for as little as $5/month here and get these episodes and ad-free Rambles direct to your own podcast feed: patreon.com/footballramble. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What did we learn from the furore caused by whispers of a Swiss-style EU deal? Are we getting ready to mingle with the single market? The gang chats Brexit rumblings while it feels as though the narrative is shifting… Plus, as Labour touts Lords reform – should it top the list of constitutional conundrums? What other changes would the panel prefer to see happen?  “The bloated upper chamber is going to grow.” – Naomi Smith  “Westminster barely works, at any level.” – Ian Dunt “ “Why the hell is our government based in a house?” – Ian Dunt  “Brexit doesn't predict how people vote anymore.” – Naomi Smith www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Get our Black Friday merch here: https://podmarket.co.uk/  Presented by Alex Andreou with Ian Dunt, Naomi Smith and Justin Quirk. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Jet Gerbertson and Alex Rees. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Robin Leeburn. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are we still talking about Brexit? You bet your badgers, we are, because it's still causing – euphemism warning – mischief all over the political, trade and, well, everything shop. So Mick got on the blower with Naomi Smith, CEO of Best For Britain and co-host of the Oh God, What Now? podcast to talk Brexit fallout, the political upshot of the latest Tory “budget”, and why Best For Britain is campaigning for a general election now. Yes please and thank you.Hannah chats to Keala Settle, actor, star of The Greatest Showman and the woman behind that huge singing voice, about why she was desperate to do a pantomime. So now she's in one*. In Jenny Off The Blocks, Jen's talking fast women and fast cars, and also quite understandably explaining how things in Qatar remain a royal mess of human rights violations.And in Rated or Dated, Mick and Jen are watching 1942's Cat People – a horror movie from the past. Two of their very favourite things. Cats though. They do love a cat. *And you can get your tickets here: https://www.royalandderngate.co.uk/whats-on/jack-beanstalk/Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/standardissuespodcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hunt's autumn statement has wound everyone up while whispers of a Swiss-style Brexit deal are sparking more Tory fury. How is Sunak going to handle anger from the public and his party? And how will parties to the right of the spectrum capitalise on the current disquiet? Plus, as Dorries looks to pen a Johnson biography we discuss the best and worst books of the political genre. This week's guest is Rosie Campbell, director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership and professor of politics at King's College London.  “The public are not stupid, they know everybody is going to be a lot poorer.” – Ayesha Hazarika  “I cannot see a world in which we do something involving a Swiss-style deal.” – Ayesha Hazarika  “I think in the long term the Conservative Party keeps going down this anti-woke agenda.” – Rosie Campbell  “If Farage does enter the fray, I think it does cause problems for the Conservative Party.” – Ayesha Hazarika  www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Presented by Ros Taylor with Ayesha Hazarika and Marie Le Conte. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Jet Gerbertson and Alex Rees. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Robin Leeburn. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Out a day early to JUST beat the fiscal announcement… As Jeremy Hunt's cuts come in, we look at why austerity has never worked before and won't work now – and whether the infamous fiscal Black Hole is even real. Plus, Labour activist Michael Chessum of Another Europe Is Possible and Momentum talks about his new book This Is Only the Beginning: The Making of a New Left, from Anti-Austerity to the Fall of Corbyn. And in the Extra Bit… Gerontocracy Now? From Biden to Lula to Putin, why do rocky systems end up with ancient leaders? Listeners can get 25% off Michael's book This Is Only the Beginning. Go here and use the code Whatnow_25 https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/this-is-only-the-beginning-9780755641284/ “We are going to have to pay the Truss-Kwarteng Idiot Premium for decades to come.” – Alex Andreou “There's huge public support for union action now that we're in a crisis… You can hear the rumble of the cavalry in the distance.” – Michael Chessum “This isn't a fiscal hole. Truss and Kwarteng created a credibility hole.” – Alex Andreou “Hunt is banking on Keir Starmer making the same mistake that Ed Miliband did… We're not hearing a clear anti-austerity line from Labour.” – Michael Chessum Written and presented by Dorian Lynskey with Alex Andreou and Yasmeen Serhan. Producers: Alex Rees and Jet Geburtson. Assistant producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Theme music by Cornershop. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oh God, here we go again.   Follow me on Twitter @RunninFewl Follow me on Rumble @DumbAssesTalkingPolitics Download or listen to my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Podbean, Podcast Addict, Stitcher and Rumble. Show notes and blog can be found on: http://www.dumbassestalkingpolitics.com   Please Subscribe, Like and Comment!

Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech,  getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l

Sunak is performing ex-Prime Minister karaoke, pulling together failed ideas and giving them a go. Has he got anything fresh up his sleeve? Plus star guest Philippe Auclair, football journalist and singer songwriter, joins to discuss the moral perils of the upcoming Qatar World Cup. And finally after a string of seemingly culture averse Culture Secretaries, we ask the panel what they'd do if they took on the job.  Listen to the new series of Origin Story: https://kite.link/OS2E1Rand “It's not just that we're back to austerity, it's austerity on austerity.” – Ros Taylor  “Why is rejoining the single market not part of the debate? I despair.” – Philippe Auclair  “I've never seen a World Cup that's been approached in such a way.” – Philippe Auclair  “Hosting the World Cup is not about reputation, it's about wielding power.” – Philippe Auclair  Presented by Andrew Harrison with Ros Taylor and Ahir Shah. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Jet Gerbertson and Alex Rees. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Robin Leeburn. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A Devotional on 1 Kings 14:5-7 5 And the Lord said unto Ahijah, Behold, the wife of Jeroboam cometh to ask a thing of thee for her son; for he is sick: thus and thus shalt thou say unto her: for it shall be, when she cometh in, that she shall feign herself to be another woman. 6 And it was so, when Ahijah heard the sound of her feet, as she came in at the door, that he said, Come in, thou wife of Jeroboam; why feignest thou thyself to be another? for I am sent to thee with heavy tidings. 7 Go, tell Jeroboam, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Forasmuch as I exalted thee from among the people, and made thee prince over my people Israel, Search Me O God - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aoNSjDCEgo

The BBC is constantly under siege – how can it survive the 360 degree onslaught it faces? Does it make a rod for its own back? Or is stuck in a perennial catch-22? Siân Pattenden is joined by Patrick Barwise author of The War Against the BBC, to discuss the embattled broadcaster.  “People pay for far more services that they don't use than paying for the BBC.” “What is contested is impartiality.” “The organised attacks on the BBC come from the Right.” “It is a miracle it's so productive given how tightly it has been squeezed.” Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/bunkercast Written and presented by Siân Pattenden. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producer: Alex Rees. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Robin Leeburn. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Rejected Alan Partridge character “Sir” Gavin Williamson resigns to spend more time with his tarantula. (Poor Cronus). Is Sunak even paying attention to anything that isn't the economy? Plus, the US Mid-Terms weren't quite as hellish as expected. UCL politics professor Julie Norman explains what it means for Biden's next two years and the spectre of Trump II. And the latest on Elon Trussk wrecking Twitter.  Get your tickets for our Christmas show on Mon 12 Dec here: https://www.tickettext.co.uk/MDQXAzs4dr  “Gavin Williamson was that embarrassing middle-aged guy who's never seen any service but wets himself when he meets the SAS.” – Arthur Snell “I'm pathetically sentimental about the British-French relationship… When it's not good, it upsets me.” – Ian Dunt “Biden's agenda is pretty much done now… Republicans will air all the bad stuff they possibly can from now on.” – Julie Norman Written and presented by Ros Taylor with Ian Dunt and Arthur Snell. Producers: Alex Rees and Jet Gerbertson. Assistant producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Theme music by Cornershop. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Read Amos 8 the entire chapter. It will open your eyes to what is going on in America. Oh GOD, many say you are Love is which you are, but many don't know your judgment for their continuous sinful ways. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/tasha-mack9/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/tasha-mack9/support

This week we talk about two of our favorite things: Twitter and Siri.If you're trying Mastodon, check out Metatext on iOS and Mastonaut on the Mac.Dan's favorite Weird Al song is, not surprisingly, The Saga Begins.Lex likes Jackson Park Express. Moltz celebrates his entire catalog.Apple may be changing the Siri trigger from “Hey, Siri” to just “Siri”.If you want to help out the show and get some great bonus content, consider becoming a Rebound Prime member! Just go to prime.reboundcast.com to check it out!You can now also support the show by buying our NEW shirt featuring our catchphrase, TECHNOLOGY! Are we right?! (Prime members, check your email for a special deal on the shirt.) Also available as a phone case!

Rishi Sunak promised stability but here we are, back in a u-turn vortex. If he can't stop the rot, what's the point of the new PM? Does he have a political north star? And as Braverman's shirks blame, we agree the asylum system is broken – just not in the way she thinks. What needs fixing? Plus, Matt Hancock joins the shameful list of reality TV politicians. Seriously? This week's guest is Satbir Singh, managing director of openDemocracy.  “If there's one thing we know about Sunak it is he very obviously panics quite quickly.” – Marie Le Conte “Sunak will piss off several parts of the Parliamentary party no matter what he does.” – Marie Le Conte  “As a country we've never been capable of having a sensible debate on asylum.” – Tom Peck  “I feel physically sick hearing some of the things being said by ministers.” – Satbir Singh  www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Presented by Alex Andreou with Tom Peck and Marie Le Conte. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producer: Jet Gerbertson. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Alex Rees. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We thought they couldn't do worse than Priti Patel. As conditions in Manston reveal Suella Braverman's stupendous callousness, it turns out that yes, they could. We unpack the rank incompetence, as well as the rank and incompetent. Plus, New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg joins us to look ahead to the US midterms – and the unfortunate parallels in politics both sides of the pond.  “The blue tick is going to become a sign that basically you're a huge dork.” – Michelle Goldberg  “Everyone in the Conservative Party now thinks they're Winston Churchill.” – Seth Thévoz  “What you're seeing with Braverman is the Republicanisation of British politics.” – Seth Thévoz  “The Republicans are now a party that has turned its back on democracy.” – Michelle Goldberg “It's frustrating that only the people who believe in language take it seriously.” – Michelle Goldberg www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Presented by Dorian Lynskey with Arthur Snell and Seth Thévoz . Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Alex Rees, Jacob Archbold and Jelena Sofronijevic. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Alex Rees. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Guest: Pastor Shane Idleman "Oh God Will You Rend The Heavens"? Sponsor website: www.EarthEchoFoods.com/Todd   Website: www.ShaneIdleman.com Have we as a nation become more depraved than ever before? Have we crossed a dangerous line of no return? Is there any hope to turn the tide back from the deep waters of ungodliness we've waded into? In this short but powerful booklet, pastor Shane Idleman shares encouraging reasons to be hopeful despite the decadence and brutality in our streets and the unparalleled despair overcoming our land. God is sovereign and controls the affairs of men, and has a pattern of reviving His people at very dark moments in history. The need to address the vital role of the Holy Spirit is as relevant today as it has been throughout Church history. This booklet will prepare the soil of your heart so that God can rend the heavens and release a spiritual downpour of His Spirit in our land in this hour! What is stopping you from being a part of it? Listen to this important broadcast of The Remnant!  You can watch live on the Remnant Channel at www.TheRemnantChannel.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help us fund the operation here: www.ToddCoconato.com/give Get up-to-the-minute news here: www.Remnant.News Download our new app at www.ToddCoconato.com/app Follow Pastor Todd here: www.toddcoconato.com/findme Go to our store for special deals for Remnant Warriors here: https://remnant.news/hanews/deals-for-remnant-warriors/  

Intro: Emceeing a memorial serviceLet Me Run This By You: Fear and the paranormalInterview: We talk to Tina Parker aka Francesca Liddy about SMU, Blake Hackler, Andre DeShields, Maria Irene Fornes' Mud, Kitchen Dog Theatre, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Robert Altman's Dr. T & the Women, Birdbath play, Perpetual Grace. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez2 (10s):This, and I'm Gina Pulice1 (11s):We went to theater3 (12s):School together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.4 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of3 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):So what does mean, What does it mean to mc a memorial?1 (40s):Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to call it. I I people keep it host. I'm not hosting cuz the family's hosting. So what it means is that I'm trusted, I think to not, Well one, I've done this twice, you know, I've lost both my parents. So I like know the drill about how memorials go, but also I think I'm kind of a safe person in that I will step in if someone goes kaka cuckoo at the memorial and I also have some, you know, able like, presenting skills. Yes. Right. And I'm entrusted to like guide the ship if it, and if it goes off kilter, I will say to somebody, Hey, why don't you have a seat?1 (1m 23s):This is like, we'll have time for this later if you really wanna get crazy or whatever. But that's, and I think it's just sort of steering, steering the grief ship maybe. I don't know. Yeah, look, I don't know. I like that. It's gonna be2 (1m 34s):Interesting, dude, people, Oh, honestly, they should have that for, you know, in other cultures where they have like professional grievers and professional mourners, it, it sounds a little silly, but at the same time it's like, no, this is right. Because no, we don't, we never know how to do it. Unless you've lived in a really communal environment where you, you, you, you know, you attend the rights, the ceremonies or rituals of everybody in your village, then you really don't know until, usually until it's thrust upon you. And then it's like, well, you're supposed to be grieving and then like hosting a memorial service. It's such a weird thing. So this could be another career path for you. You could be a professional, you know, funeral mc, I actually, honestly, I hate, I don't hate it.2 (2m 21s):I love it. Well,1 (2m 22s):And also could be my thank you, my rap name funeral Mc instead of like young mc funeral mc, but no. Yeah, I, I have no, and it's so interesting when it's not my own family, right? Like these are family friends, but they're not, it's not my mother who died. I don't have the attachment to I people doing and saying certain things. I don't feel triggered. Like being, I grew up a lot in this house that I'm sitting in right now, but it's not my, it was not my house. So I don't have any attachment emotionally like appendages to the items in the house where the girls do.1 (3m 2s):So I'm able to be here and, and, and be like, this is, this is, I'm okay here. I don't feel overwhelmed. And I think that is a sign that I'm doing the right thing in terms of helping out in this way if I got here and I was like, Oh my God, it's too much. But I don't feel that. And I also think that like, one of the things that I did with Nancy and Dave over the last couple years is like, they were literally the only adults. Well, I'm an adult, only older adults my parents age who are like, Yes, go to California, you need to get out of here, get away from this. They were the, so I that made me trust them. And then we stayed, we had like weekly phone conversations, just like they would each be on a line.1 (3m 46s):It was hilarious. And we would talk for hours like maybe once every two weeks, a couple hours. And it was really like a parenting experience. So I feel very close to them and I, what I'm learning is that like, even if other people have different relationships with people, you can have your own. So I know that no one's perfect, but these were allowed, like, you're allowed Gina to have your own relationship with your mom and with your even dead people than other people have.2 (4m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Back to the plane for a minute. In these situations, what do the flight attendants do, if anything?1 (4m 28s):Oh, well I always talked to them before because I, so what I say, I always like to, because Dave, who's, who's a hypnotherapist and a psychologist, he said, Listen, you know, he used to be afraid. And he said his thing was talking to the flight attendants before and just saying like, Hey, I have a phobia. I'm a therapist. I'm working through it. Like just to make contact, right. I don't, I didn't say that exactly, but what I said was, Listen, I say, Hi, how are you? We struck up a strike up, a teeny conversation in that moment where I'm going to my seat and I say, Listen, I'm going to Chicago to like mc a memorial for like someone who's like my mom. So if you see me, so if you see me crying like it's normal. And they're like, Oh, thanks for telling me. And they're, they usually don't get freaked out.1 (5m 11s):I'm also not like intense about it. They do nothing. And you know what they, I think and, and she said, Thanks for telling me. I really appreciate it. Because I think they'd rather know what the fuck is going on with someone than thinking someone's about to hijack the goddamn plane.2 (5m 29s):Exactly. I was thinking that exact same thing. I was thinking like, especially right now, all they know is it's heightened emotion or it's not, you know, like they, they, they have no, they would have no way of differentiating, you know, what's, what's safe and what's dangerous. So I can't believe nobody's ever done this before. But we, another project that we could do is like airplane stories. I mean there is such, this is one of the few points of connection that humanity still has people that is who can afford to you fly a plane anywhere. But this thing of like, it sucks and it's dirty and it's growth and people, people's, you know, hygiene comes into question and if they're sitting next to you and it's uncomfortable and it's not the glamorous thing that it used to be even when we were kids.2 (6m 21s):So it's, it's one of those moments unless you have a private plane where you're sort of forced to reckon with like the same thing that everybody else in humanity has to reckon with. But even on a private plane, and I would argue even especially on a private plane, there is the fear of your imminent death. Like the, the, it doesn't matter if you're afraid of flying or not, it crosses your mind.1 (6m 42s):Well, yeah. And I, my whole thing is like, I, I don't know what would happen if we all started talking about that on a plane. So like what would that be like? So, okay, when I was traveling last with home from San Francisco with Miles, I sat next to this woman, Miles was in the middle and the woman on the aisle was this woman. We were both afraid. And we had this idea for a fricking television show, right? Which was two, it's called the Fearful Flyers and then two people on each side and a famous person in the middle seat. And we would interview them as we, we flew to one, take our mind off it, but two really delve into our own fear and did the person of any fear and get to know a celebrity at the same time.1 (7m 27s):Now she never texted me back. So she's clear, clearly she's not that interested. Cause I was like into it. I was like, what if we get, I know, I know. And she's not even in the industry. She's like, so, but I was like, hey fearful flyer friend, I think we should talk about our idea. Crickets radio silence. So whatever. She's moved on. Like she just used me for the, for the Yeah. No entertainment, which is fine,2 (7m 53s):Heightened emotional space. She, she bonded with you, but now she's back to like all of her armor and all of her gear and she doesn't wanna think about flying until she has1 (7m 60s):To. No. Right, right. Exactly. It's not something that she wants to delve into on her free time, you know, So, which I don't blame her. But anyway, so yeah, it's an interesting thing. Like I literally ha I sit out the window, I sit by the window and I have to look out the window. And this guy next to me who I met, who's like a vet and who is like, was self-medicating with alcohol and who is a gay vet was really interesting. But he, everyone copes differently. But it was in, at one point I thought, oh, I actually don't wanna be distracted by him because I'm really doing some deep work with myself as I look out the window and also your version of like getting through this experience, I, it does not feel safe to me, which is drinking and like just, I cannot distract myself.1 (8m 52s):People are like, Oh, read a book. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? That's like telling someone I don't know who's having a seizure to read a book. Like you, you, it's not gonna work. Right. I look out the window and, and do therapy with myself. That is what I2 (9m 7s):Do. I love it. That's great. I think everybody who is listening to this, who has any kind of fear or intimidation around flying should, should do that. I don't know if you were getting to this, but I thought you were gonna say something about like how, Oh, you said, you said what if we all talked about it now? Every positive communal experience with the exception of theater that I've ever had, I've gone into unwillingly at the beginning and you know, sort of rejecting it and then come out the other side. Like that was amazing. You know, the thing that you experience, the communal thing, the thing of like, we're all in this together, which we are all like so actually parched for, but we, people like me would never really kind of actively sort of approach.2 (9m 48s):It has to be thrust upon me these like healing group experiences, but amen. In fact, they could make a whole airline that is sort of about that. Like this is, you know, this is the emotional express. Like this is where we're gonna talk about our fear of flying. Cuz everybody's crying in airplanes too. Being in the actual airplane does something to you that makes everybody much more vulnerable than there are otherwise.1 (10m 13s):It's so crazy. I agree. It could be emotional express and you could deal with it, but you would know getting on this plane, like people are gonna talk about their feelings and you shouldn't get on it. So the guy on the aisle2 (10m 26s):Yesterday, No,1 (10m 28s):No alcohol. Oh yeah, no alcohol. The guy on the aisle like hated everything about the flight, Right? He was like shaking his head. He was annoyed. But then he had a Harvard sweatshirt on. I was like, oh my god. But he was like middle aged guy, like coating or I don't know what he was doing, but he like hated everything. He shook his head when they told him to like put his bag under the seat. I'm like, listen, you know what's going on here. This is not your first time in an airplane, Why are you shaking your head? But okay. But then he said something that was hilarious and I said, I'm gonna put that in a script. Which, which was, I don't even know what he was responding to. It was probably my seat mate saying something. But he said, Listen, it's not ideal, but nobody asked me.2 (11m 13s):And1 (11m 13s):I, I'm gonna, and I said to him, I said, Listen, I am gonna put that in a script. Like the mother-in-law is meeting her future daughter-in-law and, and says, Listen, she's not ideal, but nobody asked me. And he laughed and then he said, it's true. And I said, Yeah, I know it's true. That's why. And so then he was like, then he was like free to talk about his disgruntledness, which was fine cuz then it was like he was more human. But at, he was hilarious. He was like the, like he's one of those people that like during and it was really turbulent at one point. And I was like, Okay, here we go. It's turbulence part of the deal. It's okay, fine. And he was like, just like angry at the turbulence.2 (11m 57s):I love1 (11m 58s):It. Which I thought was brilliant. Yeah, I'm like, but like, who are you angry at? Just like the turbulence. And he was like, ugh. And like angry at air flow. I don't know if2 (12m 7s):At air current1 (12m 8s):He was like pissed off. I was laughing. I was like, this guy's awesome. He just hates everything. It's, it is not ideal, but nobody asks me.2 (12m 17s):So what's so great about that? And so what's so great about you is like, you enga that's how you always engage people from this perspective of like, yeah, whatever is going on with you that you think is like nobody else wants to hear about, I want to hear about it. Because that's because that's what you spend your time doing. You know, bravely engaging with yourself. They, we need a person like you in all of these sort of like high stress situations that people have to do. Usually at some point in your life you have to get on an airplane. Usually at some point in your life you you have to speak, you know, in front of a group of people. You have to have the funeral. We need these sherpa's, these guides to kind of give us, basically just give us permission to have our own human experience that we have somehow talked ourselves out of having, even though it's completely unavoidable.1 (13m 3s):Yeah. And I also really respect people who now who have to just, I mean I, it's not my way, but like, shut down and they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna, they can do it. They're like, either it's drinking or whatever it is to distract themselves. They're like in it, whether it's the disgruntledness or other people, they like just go to sleep immediately. They like sit down and they're like out. And I don't think it's relaxation. I think they're just like checked. They're like,2 (13m 30s):I have, Oh yeah, no, they're, I cannot be conscious right now. I wonder what makes the difference between people who are afraid of flying and not, I have never once felt afraid of flying, even during turbulence. I've never once had the thought like, this plane is going down. I mean, maybe that changed a little bit when I had kids and I was always the one in the aisle, like holding, I had to hold my babies the entire flight because, because it must be a natural thing to be freaked the fuck out to be on an airplane. Even a baby freaks out to be on an airplane. So there's something to it. But what makes a difference between people who just, I've never had that fear.1 (14m 8s):I I know it is a foreign, it is like it is. I don't know either. And I, I I, there's other people like that have, What was the fear someone was talking about the other day? Oh, I have a friend who like literally cannot have their blood drawn. They have to go under almost. Wow. They almost have to be sedated to have their blood drawn. Me. I I stick out my arm. I don't give a, it's just not my thing. Yeah. I don't have any charge at it at all.2 (14m 37s):Well,1 (14m 38s):You could take my blood right now.2 (14m 40s):I used to have this theory that you grew up afraid of the things that your parents basically were afraid of so that they therefore communicated to be afraid of. But that I now think that that's completely untrue. My daughter is scared to death of spiders. She, she's haunted by this fear that when she goes into the bathroom at night, there's gonna be a spider. If there's the tiniest and we live in the woods, there's sp there's all kinds of insects that make that their way into our house. I have, there's not a spider I've ever encountered that I've been afraid of now. Mice and rats. That's what I'm afraid of. My mom was afraid of snakes. She did not transfer when I was younger.2 (15m 20s):I felt afraid of them too. And then one day I was like, eh, it's fine. Yeah. I don't think I have any coral with these snakes actually. I think it's completely fine. Right. So I, I don't, So it's something inherent in us that identifies an ob I think it's maybe like we've, I for whatever reason, this becomes the object of all of your fears. And it could be a spider, it could be a plane, it could be, you know, clowns. Like it's for a lot, for a lot of people. It's1 (15m 47s):Fun. Oh remember, Okay, Larry Bates, who we went to school with, and he's open, I think about this. Yeah, he is cuz he's, he's talked about it. I, he had a fear of muppets, like an intense Muppet fear. And I was like, Wait, are you, I thought it was a joke. I was like, Wait, Muppets, Like, okay, they're a little weird, but like, but like a phobia of a Muppet. And I was like, what the actual fuck. I couldn't like,2 (16m 14s):I just, that's it's not, dude, my version of that is I was afraid of mariachi bands.1 (16m 22s):Wait, mariachi bands?2 (16m 24s):Yes.1 (16m 25s):Like bands. Yeah.2 (16m 26s):Well, so growing up, growing up in, well, we love Mexican boots, so we were always going out for Mexican food. And back then, I don't know why every time you went to have Mexican food, you know, dinner, there was a mariachi band. Like, I, I, it doesn't, I haven't seen a mariachi band in such a long time, but it used to be that you could not go out for a Mexican restaurant dinner without a mariachi band. And I, it got to a point where they couldn't, first it was like, we can't go to have Mexican food anymore. It was like, we can't go to a restaurant. I just, I didn't want these mariachis and, and it must have just, I think it was the bigness of the hat and the loudness of the music right next to your table when you think about it, it's actually, so it's strange, right?2 (17m 9s):Yeah. That you're sitting at your table, like with your family looking, you know, whether you're gonna order the chalupa or the enchilada. And then it's just like, extremely loud, very good, but extremely loud and, and in huge presence. People sitting, you know, right next to your table.1 (17m 24s):Yeah. I mean it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a business move either. Like what, why it would like, it would like make people, unless you're drunk again, if there's alcohol involved, it changes everything. But you can't really drink as a toddler. So, but I think that like, maybe there's something, I wonder if there's something about that of like all the attention being on you. Like, listen, when there's, like, there are kids I know at restaurants when they, when it's their birthday and they come over to sing that they fucking hate it. It's too much attention on them. And adults too. And I can kinda understand that. It's like too much pressure, right? There's like a2 (17m 59s):Pressure. Well, you just unlocked it for me now I know exactly what it is. You said something about being drunk and I think at that age, I have always equated loud and raucous with drunk. You know, as a kid, I knew when anybody in my family was being loud raus. And, and actually, I'm sorry to say even especially when they were having fun. When I'm in a room, when I'm in a house and everybody's laughing, you know, my, it's like, I I I I just get that fear. I just get that fear sort of rise up. It's different now that I'm older and I've, you know, been in more situations where that hasn't been scary to me. But that's what it was with the mariachis, The loud and the festive and the music meant like, somebody's going to say something that they really regret.2 (18m 44s):Somebody's gonna get a dui, somebody's going to jail.1 (18m 50s):Hey, let me run this by you.2 (18m 58s):So imperfectly into the thing I wanted to run by you today, given that it is Halloween season and this episode will air the day after Halloween. But so I, you know, Well, actually no. Okay, I'll, I'll start with this. I am one of those people that desperately seeks paranormal experiences. And I'm almost always disappointed when I'm, when I'm actively seeking it, going to a psychic, going to a medium, going to, it's, oh, you know, it's, I'm never the one in the crowd where the medium goes. Like, I've got a message for you.2 (19m 40s):And I've, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, my family's like just not that into me. They don't wanna, you know, the people have passed over, like, don't wanna, don't wanna come talk to me, don't wanna give me messages. But I I, if you're out there, if you're listening, ancestors drop a line. I'd love to know what the deal is. I'd love to know what messages you might have from me because I actually really do believe that that can happen. Maybe it just needs to happen with people who are on a higher spiritual plane than any of,1 (20m 9s):I mean, I don't, I don't believe that for a sec. I mean, it could be true. What do I know? But I think, look, I do believe right, that most shit happens when you're not expecting it paranormal or not. Like all this shit that has happened to me, most of it has been not at all when I would've planned or thought or, and so I have one ghost story. I don't know if you know, it happened in Great Barrington, Do you know this story?2 (20m 42s):Yes. But tell it again. It's a great story.1 (20m 44s):Okay. Okay. I could care. I was like 21. All I wanted was to be skinny and have boys like me. I didn't give a fuck about ghosts, I didn't care about anything. So I'm in Great Barrington in edits, Wharton's the old Lady author's house, and I'm the stage manager. And this guy I was in love with was in this play that took place. The monkeys paw took place in the, they were doing an adaptation of the Monkeys Paw in Edith Wharton's parlor on Halloween. It was like the creepiest thing, but I didn't give a fuck because I was in love with the guy who was seriously haunted. Yes, yes, yes. Super, super Berkshire's, whatever. I didn't care.1 (21m 24s):I was like, ah, I wanna, I want this guy to like me. I don't give a fuck about any of that. Okay. So I, my job was to literally move the furniture after the rehearsal to the storage room. Okay. In this big mansion. Okay, fine. They're getting notes and I'm just probably daydreaming about how I can make this guy like me. And I'm moving furniture and I go into this little storage room and of course people talk about the house is so big and haunted, I could care less. So I'm in there and down the road from the house is a barn where they're doing the play Ethan from and Okay, Ethan from, there's like a sledding accident in the play. So he's on a sled and they start screaming and the guy is hurt.1 (22m 4s):So another show was going on at the, in the barn. And I'm like, ah, okay. So I'm moving the furniture and I hear this sled yelling and okay, I'm like, Oh, should they, I wish they would shut up. I was like, this is loud yelling. So then I, we finish our rehearsal and we're walking up back, me and the cute guy and some other people, and all I'm thinking about is how can I get this guy like me? And like, literally, and also now I see pictures of him and I'm like, Dear God. Anyway, so, so, oh my God, why didn't someone, I mean, you should, someone should have just slapped me like 10 times and been like, No. But anyway, but that's what I was, I was all about him. I had a thing for Canadians. Anyway, so, so like, I just loved the guys that was like international to me, Canadians.1 (22m 48s):Anyway, okay. So it was like all the Canadians. So we're walking in the dark to our cars and, and I say, and we walk by the barn and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you guys, they were so loud tonight when I was moving the furniture. Like they should shut up. Like, I, I wonder how it's gonna be when we're doing the Monkeys Past show. We're gonna hear Ethan from, and like every, there's like four of us. Everyone stopped and I'm like, What, what's wrong with you? Two or three or whatever. And they were like, like turned white. I've never seen this happen in human beings. And I was like, What is happening? I thought I said something wrong or like, of course, like I was bad. And I'm like, What?1 (23m 28s):And they're like, Oh God. And I was like, What? What are you punk me? What's happening? And they're like, There was no show tonight.2 (23m 37s):Ooh. Even though I knew that was coming the story, it still gave me a chill. Today on the podcast we are talking to Tina Parker. Yes. Tina Parker, the one and only Francesca Litty from the Smash Hit series, critically acclaimed and me acclaimed Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad Tina's a delight. She's a director, she directs for theater. She's got a theater company in Dallas, Texas called Kitchen Dog. And she was so much fun to talk to and I just know you are going to love our conversation with Tina Parker.2 (24m 33s):Oh, nice. Okay. Well I wanna get all into Kitchen Dog, but I've gotta start first by saying congratulations Tina Parker. You survived theater school5 (24m 44s):So long ago. My Lord, so2 (24m 46s):Long ago. Yeah. I I have no doubt that, you know, the ripple we, we've learned, it doesn't matter how long ago you graduated, the, the feeling of survival persists and the ripple effects of it persists.5 (24m 59s):Absolutely.1 (25m 1s):When I had longer hair, people used to always ask if I played Bob Oden Kirk's assistant on better. And I would say no. But I adore the human that plays her. It's brilliant performance and I love it. So2 (25m 17s):There you go. It really is. And I, and I wanna talk a lot about Better Call Saul, but you went to smu, which I did. You interviewed the current dean, I think he's the dean. Blake Hackler.5 (25m 30s):Yeah. Chair of Acting I think.2 (25m 31s):Chair of Acting. Okay, fantastic. I'm I'm assuming you guys weren't there. No, you never crossed5 (25m 36s):Path. But we've actually, he and I have crossed paths a bit professionally nowadays. Yes. Because we've, we, Kitchen Dog has done a few of his new play readings cuz he's a playwright also. So he's, he had at least two or three plays read in our New Works festival and he's always helped me out when I need recommendations for young people to come in and read. Cause you know, we're all old at Kitchen Dog.2 (25m 56s):Fantastic. Shout out to Blake. So SMU is a fantastic school. Did you always wanna go there? Did you apply to a bunch of different places? How did you pick smu?5 (26m 9s):Well, it's kind of a ridiculous story. I, my senior year of high school, you know, of course like a lot of people went to theater school. You're all like, I'm the superstar. My high school. Like, all right, I get all the leads. I'm Auntie Mame and Mame. You know what? Ridiculous.1 (26m 25s):I just have to say I was Agnes Gooch and I, I was the Gooch. Were you5 (26m 30s):Agnes? I was ma I was anti Mame in the stage play version. Oh yes.1 (26m 35s):I wa yeah, yeah, me too. I was Agnes Gooch. I wanted to be anti Mame, but so anyway, always a goo, always a Gooch. Never a Mame over here. But anyway, So tell us, So you were the start.5 (26m 46s):Yeah, you know, like everybody who went to theater school, everybody was the start at their high school. But I, my dad unfortunately had a stroke when I was a, and he was only, my parents are super young and so he was 40, I don't know. So it was very unusual. It happened like at the beginning of my senior year. And so my family was, it was all kind of chaotic. My senior year was very chaotic and I was also like the president of the drama club and, and we, you know, and all the people, you know, all the competitions every weekend. And so it was just a, there was a lot going on and my family stuff got into disarray because my dad ended up losing his job because he was sick for so long. And, and it was so I screwed up.5 (27m 28s):Like I missed a lot of applications. I never, I didn't really, it was one of those where it just kind of snuck up on me and I didn't really know the places I wanted to go. I had missed like certain deadlines because of the fall. And so I, SME was still one of the ones that was open. And so I did, was able to schedule an audition cuz you had to get into the school, but also, you know, get into the theater program. Like you could get into the school, not get into the theater program, you know, it is what it is. Luckily I still had time to do the audition, so I did that and then my grandmother literally walked my application through the admin, through the academic part because something I had missed, I think.5 (28m 13s):And my grandmother is very like, I don't know, it's hard to say no to my grandmother. So she went and they took this great care of her and she just kind of walked through and she's like, told the whole situation. And I mean, I had good grades. Like it wasn't, you know, like I did get in, I got scholarships and all this shit. Like I had, I had good grades, so it wasn't like I was like, my grandmother did it, you know, But she did walk it through. She's a thousand percent charmer. And then the, as far as the audition goes, I was an hour late because I got lost. And then there's this weird horseshoe at SMU cuz you know, go ponies or whatever bullshit that is, there was no parking.5 (28m 55s):And so I was like, got, was super late and I was just like, just like so sweaty and like, you know, you, everything's high drama when you're in high school, right? So you're like, this is is my last chance to be a doctor. I'm gonna have to work at the, you know, fucking shoe store that I was working at or whatever. It was forever. And so1 (29m 15s):I would, I, after I became an actor, I was still working at the cheese store after I went to, But the other thing I wanna say is like, also your grandma sounds like charming, but also like, she might be in the mob.5 (29m 25s):Well, yeah, she's totally like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. She's, she's she, she can get it done. She's the wife of a Methodist minister too. So she, she, she knows how she can, she can read a person and figure out like, this is what you need, you know, And she's just sweet, like, you know, she's charmer. But I ran into someone else's audition, like that's what I, I ran and they then the school, the school is all built, the school is all built crazy. So if you don't know the school, you get lost. And I was like, went and I going in the wrong places and I was an hour late and I was like, and like, I literally like, this is it not open the door. And they're like, somebody's in there like, like doing the thing. And I'm like, oh my god. And they're like, you know, and I was like that.5 (30m 7s):And I was just like, Oh God. And so I go and sit in the room and I just remember them coming in. I was like, I'm really sorry, you know, like the kid was like, whoever, I don't think they got in. And they, I just remember them looking at me like, you know, and they left and I was like, great, this is awesome. And then I go into my audition, which I chose the worst pieces, like the worst of course. Like, I think it was like, I can't even remember the name of the playwright, but it's like a really, really dramatic monologue from like bird bath, you know, My head is not a hammer, like something ridiculous. And then I also chose to sing, which I'm not the greatest. I mean, I can sing, I can sing karaoke, but not like seeing like I'm a musical theater actor. I, I, that's not me.5 (30m 47s):I think I chose seeing like the something that Nights on Broadway or some bullshit, like, you know, the Neon Lights On? No, No. On Broadway. Like ridiculous. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, luckily, luckily I did get in the interview part and then they're like, turn your, they're like, turn your monologue into standup comedy.2 (31m 6s):Oh wow. I never heard of that in audition. What a cool tactic.5 (31m 10s):Well, and it was also, I think they could tell that I was so freaked out and so nervous, but then that like, the interview portion went great. And so they're like, you know, then they were like, Hey, try like play around with this. And then like, the bad song that I had selected that I had practiced with my cousin who could play guitar or something, they're like, do some dance moves with it. So I was just like, I don't dance, but I started doing these ridiculous things and they're like, Yeah, good. They laughed and you know, I, I think it also let me relax. They're2 (31m 38s):Like, you are crazy enough to be in theater school. Wait, you guys, should we have a documentary series about people who are auditioning for theater school? Because honestly like the stakes are so high for so many people. I bet there's 1 billion stories. Yeah, I mean, some of which we've heard on, on, on the podcast, right? Boz? Yeah,1 (31m 58s):I think we do. I think we do. And all the, I just remembered that in my monologue was from the play about the woman who traps the rapist in her house and puts him in a fireplace.5 (32m 10s):Oh, the burning bed or whatever. Not the burning bed, but the, Yeah,1 (32m 14s):Yeah. And it's, it's, it's William Masterson.5 (32m 17s):Yes,1 (32m 18s):Yes, yes. And, and she has a fire poker and she's poking the rapist and I am 16 at the time. Oh, and I what? And a virgin, not that that really matters, but like the whole thing is not good. And why, why did I do that? But yet I got, But5 (32m 35s):That's what this piece was the same thing. It was so dark. And so like, this person is mentally ill and she's like, I get, there's not a hammer.1 (32m 41s):Don't hit me bear.5 (32m 42s):And you're just like, What?1 (32m 44s):I'm like it would've been, I mean I know this is terrible to say, but what if they told me to turn that into standup? Like that would be dark, dark, dark humor. But any, Okay, so you, you clearly like, what I love is that smu like knew how to take a teenagers anxiety and like shift it and so good on them, those auditioners like good on them. So you did that, you did you walk out of there feeling like, okay, like it started off really wonky, like me being late, but like I have a chance. Or did they tell you, when did they tell you5 (33m 15s):I felt good like that? When I, after I left I was like, okay, you know, like I wasn't sure like, cuz I was like, it was weird that they told me to change it to comedy, but I think it was good, you know, And like I felt like the interview part went good and they were, at the time, my class, this was the first year that they, they eliminated the cuts program. So what happened is they instead they had the BFA acting track and then they had, well what was proposed anyways, they changed our, what our degree was, but it was supposed to be ba in theater studies. And so if you were interested in directing, you know, playwriting, whatever, stage management, tech, whatever, and then acting you could also have, so you kind of chose focuses, but that was it.5 (34m 2s):And it had more of a little more academic focus. And so cuz before me, the classes, everybody went in as an actor. You did first two years and then they kind of just cut you basically. And were like, you're in this free fall of like a program that wasn't really planned.1 (34m 18s):Yeah. I mean like, that's how our school was too. And like half the people didn't end up graduating and it was a racket and now they don't do it anymore. But that5 (34m 27s):Was a huge, yeah, they stopped my year.1 (34m 30s):Okay. So, so was it that the people that maybe weren't get getting into the acting program went to theater studies? Is that how it was proposed?5 (34m 37s):I think that's what they were trying to do. I think they were also trying to figure out a way, or they were try some people left. I think they were also trying to keep their numbers up. And I think they also had people who were like, Hey we're, I'm an actor but I'm also a director. Why can't you make, get me some classes here? You know, like, I wanna have the class. If you're gonna cut me, that's fine. But like, I'm interested in these things too. Can there be a program? And so they kind of were building that program, like they had it out there, you know, and that when they took our class, we had very set paths of like, and we had the same two years together as a group. So freshman and sophomore year. And then we split into our kind of disciplines and they kind of still, like when I was, when we were juniors, kind of like, here's some things and we're like, okay, but our class was kind of a hard ass and we're like, where's our, where's our, where's this class?5 (35m 24s):Where's that? So we were always in the office saying, no, this, this like afterthought of a class, this should then fly and you know, I'm gonna direct a main stage or I wanna direct a studio. And they're like, Oh. And they're like, No, this is how it's gonna work or whatever. So like, yeah, me and Tim and Tim, who actually is one of my coworkers, a kitchen dog and then a couple other folks were pr I think we turned the, the chair at the Times hair white because we would go in there and be like, No, this isn't gonna work.2 (35m 53s):You just, you just made me realize that our, this, all the schools who had cut programs who didn't have another track to go into after were missing out on such a revenue stream. Right? Like our, at our school. Yeah. All the people who got cut like went to this other college and I'm thinking, what, what, When was the meeting where somebody goes, Oh my god, you guys, we should just have something here for them to do instead of sending them to another school. That's hilarious. Well,5 (36m 17s):And I think too, they find like, you know, like that there's kids that truly have talent for, you know, like a playwright or director, but then they're also really good actors. Which I think, you know, I think it's really good for people who are like, I am primarily like, I'm a mix Tim I would say who my coworker is is primarily a director, but, but it's great for both of us to go through acting, you know, like that's been, that's, but1 (36m 38s):I'm noticing is there's no, like our school had no foresight into anything, so it was like they didn't, So that's a problem in a, in a university.5 (36m 49s):Yeah. It, here's problem. Right.1 (36m 50s):So okay, so at your school, what was your experience like on stage the star? Were you And then, Oh, okay. And then, and then my other follow up question is, man, the follow up question is you're launching into the professional world. What did your school do or not do to prepare you? And what was your departure like into like, okay, now you're 22, live your life.5 (37m 11s):Bye. I would say for, I was kind of a mix. Like I had a lot of opportunities while I was there and some self created as far as directing opportunities. And we had an interesting system of like, there was a studio theater and we were able to have, we had this studio system, which a lot of non-majors would come and see plays because they were required, blah, blah blah. But so we got to direct a lot, you know, And, and Tim really fought and he got directed main stage and I was, I was, my senior year I was a lead in a play, you know, like just all sorts of things. Like I had a lot of great opportunities at smu. I think I had some also, I had some good teachers and directors while I was there.5 (37m 53s):So when I was a junior, you know, they had Andre De Shields in to, to as a guest artist, which really stirred the pot because he was not about like, let's talk about your objectives, let's talk, let's really do some table work. Like, he was like, Why aren't you funny? I don't get that shit. Like, go, go out. Why aren't you funny like this? Or come up with some, some dancing or whatever, you know. He was awesome. Like, I loved it. Like cuz we were doing funny thing happen on the way to the forum. I was one of the, you know, concubines or whatever the dance, I was Tinton Nebula, the bell, the supposed to be a, like a bell ringer, you know, like sexy dancer. And he said, I reminded him of some lady he lived with in Amsterdam. So instead I was a clogger and had bells and had giant hair that went out to here.5 (38m 37s):And yeah. And so he was like, he was great. Like, and but it really gave you the experience, it makes a lot of people crazy because he was like not interested in their process. What he was interested in was like results and like hitting your marks and like, you know, like he had sent me away and he was like, come up with 16 beats to that end I'm gonna see something funny. And so I came back in and did it and he was like, yes. You know, like it was, it was awesome. Like he would, he would really was a real collaborator.2 (39m 3s):That's fantastic. And, and actually I'm so glad you told that story because, and I, I won't, I wanted you to get back to launching and everything, but the thing about the Andre Des Shield story that you just told, I can see why you like that because that seems like you a person who has the training and the gravitas and whatever to like take their craft very seriously, but at the end of the day, you're there to entertain and get the job done, right? Like you don't, you're not so precious about your own self. Yeah. Which is really interesting.5 (39m 30s):No, and I mean it was, it was so important I think just because, you know, like everywhere you, everywhere you go like, you know, you don't always work at the same place and everybody's process and everybody's way of rehearsal or whatever's wildly, wildly different. And so I thought it was great because you know, you're not going to go always walk into some place where they're gonna coddle you or, or, or take the time or whatever, you know, like it's different.1 (39m 56s):The other thing is that like we, what I just hit me is that we've interviewed a ton of people and I'm trying to like think about like what does a conservatory do wrong is I think they forget that it's about entertainment. Like there becomes such a focus on process and inner work. What about the fucking entertainment value of like entertaining the audience? Like that goes out the window, which is why the shit is not funny most of the time. Cause it's like so serious, you're like, no, this is a fucking farse. Like make people laugh. Yeah. And it's like, I love that, that you're, you remind me of like an entertainer and I, I feel like I needed entertainment Conservatory.5 (40m 35s):Not, well I would say that, I mean I still use a lot of the training that I used at SMU like, like at Kitchen Dog. I mean this was founded by SMU grads. So you know, a lot of the doing table work and talking about what you want and all that kinda stuff like that is definitely part of what we do. But what was cool about Andre and I love and Des Shields with all my heart like was that you found a way to make your process work in his framework and, and he got results. Like the, our show was funny as hell, like in the singing was great, the dancing was great and it looked great cuz the Eckhart's did the costumes and all the sets and it felt like we were in a professional show.5 (41m 15s):Like it was, it was exciting and fun to do. So I thought it was a great way to kind of get ready for what it was gonna be like. Cuz I remember auditioning for the show and he was like, Where's your headshot? And we're like, nobody told us. And he's like, This is an audition, why don't you have, I don't understand why you don't have a headshot. And you're just, just like, oh God. Like, and it was embarrassing, you know? And then he was like, All right, I wanna do the, he's doing some improvy things in that in the thing and people couldn't get like, people were like, and he is like, just jump in man. And he was like fantastic. And you know, you get a call back and you're like, okay, I see how this works. So that was great. And we also had a lady named Eve Roberts, same thing. She was pretty brutal too in that, you know, if you weren't ready to go, she wasn't gonna baby you.5 (42m 1s):So she would just basically like you're oh, so you don't know your lines. Sit the fuck down, Sit down, who's ready to work? Cuz it was an audition class and she was a film actor with a lot of experience and it was auditions for both film and and stage. But she, if you weren't ready, but if you were ready, she would work you out. Like you would get a great workout, you'd leave with a great monologue. And so I was like, always be prepared for that, you know, cuz she will, she will, she will get you if you're not,2 (42m 27s):Honestly it really sounds like SMU did a much better job than most, most of what we hear about in terms of like getting real working actors and, and it's a tough thing. I I, you know, I don't really blame any school that doesn't, It's a tough thing if it's a working actor, then they're working, they don't have time to like commit to the, the, the school teaching schedule. But at the same time, like if you don't have any of that, then you are really, you're experiencing all that on the job. Which, you know, which is fine too. But it sounds like SMU did a better job of preparing for you, preparing you for a career.5 (42m 57s):I would say somewhat. Yeah. I mean there are things that I, you know, as, as I entered life because I was of the mind when I, when I graduated, I was really torn about whether or not to go to grad school or not. And I really didn't know cuz I really, I, and I still to this day have a split focus. Like I act and direct both in the, you know, in the theater. Like I do both. So I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go and you really had to decide to go to grad school. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna take a year off is what I decided. And I waited tables, lived life, you know, whatever, didn't even really do any theater or stuff.5 (43m 39s):But I tended to like work back at smu. So like they would have me come back and like I would sub in and cover like Del Moffitt who was the man who was the auditioner who auditioned me originally and his improv class. Like I'd come in and do cover him for a month if he went on sabbatical, you know, stuff like that. Or like, and I directed a couple main stages there. That was it. So I just decided end up, I started working more in Dallas and ended up just staying in Dallas. Dallas was not what I plan where I planned to stay. Like I kept in my mind, you know, thinking like I'm gonna move to Chicago. Like that was my dream was living in Chicago and because I guess I'm a tourist and stubborn and lazy, I don't know, sometimes you just start working and you're like, nah, just stay here.5 (44m 26s):I'm working and I can kind of do what I want. And then I got an agent and I was like, oh there's this part of the, you know, like I think in 95 or whatever, you know, cause I graduated in 91, so you just start working and then it's like, why do I want to go and start over? And it was just kind of a hard thing to do. Do I have regrets sometime about not doing Absolutely. Like sometimes I look back and I'm like, oh man. But as far as just preparing, I think it's just hard to get prepared. Cuz I think, like, I wish I left with like, and they're doing this now, which is great, but like left with more of like what's, you know, good, what's a good headshot? What's what, what, you know, how do you walking into a room, how do you handle it?5 (45m 7s):You know, like there's certain things that I feel like they could train and give you a little bit more experience, life experience in it. But I think they have some new, I know they have, I know they have film acting now, a little bit of film acting stuff there, which is always good just cuz that's how a lot of people make money.2 (45m 26s):I, I am, I'm happy to say because we've had, we've had this conversation so many times with people about the way that schools didn't prepare you. Somebody's been getting the message about this. My son is in high school and he goes to this like auxiliary performing arts program. It's like half day his regular high school and half day this and he does a seminar once a week on the business of music. And you know, what, what kind of jobs you're gonna have to do to keep, you know, to pay the rent while you're waiting between gigs, like is very brass tack. So, so the message has gotten through, thankfully.5 (45m 58s):Yeah, the business is important, man. That's how you survive. I mean, let's be real. I mean like that's, and it's not easy. Like if you're, like, if you're going to, I mean there's, sure there's two or three unicorns every so often, but for the most part you're gonna have to wait tables or cobble together bunch of odd jobs or cobble you know, like all these little, like, I'm a, I'm gonna do the Asop Fs in the, in the elementary schools for three weeks or whatever, you know, like, and how do you make rent? You know, like that's, it's not glamorous for sure.2 (46m 27s):So what was the journey from graduating to founding Kitchen Dog with your classmates?5 (46m 33s):I actually am not a founder. So Kitchen Dog was founded by five SMU MFA students who were in the MFA program when I was an undergrad. So I, so I ate that old, thank God, but they founded it in 90, did their first show in 91, which I saw it was above a, it was above a pawn shop in deep with no air conditioner in May. It was very hot and fantastic, you know, Maria Ford has his mud, it was great. And so I did my first show with them in 93. So a few years after I graduated, which Tim, my classmate directed, he had come back, he was in Minnesota at the time and then I've just worked with Kitchen Dog ever since.5 (47m 15s):So I became a company member in 96, started working for the company as like an admin producer type person in 99 and then became co-artistic director when the founding ad left in 2005. So I've been here forever. I do not have children. I say that Kitchen dog is my grown mean child. You're1 (47m 36s):Grown mean, did you say mean?5 (47m 38s):Yeah, I did say mean sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it's very, you know, temperamental.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, that's fine. That's, I mean, yeah, it's probably still better than kids, I'm just saying. Anyway. I mean, I don't have any, so, but okay, so what do you, this is what I always wanna ask people who have longstanding careers in theater and especially when they are co-artistic director or artistic director, why do you do it and why do you love it?5 (48m 6s):That's a really good question. I mean, it varies from time to time. I mean, I think that I, you know, Kitchen Dog has one of its tenants has always been about asking, you know, we do, we do, I hate the word edgy, but we do edgier plays, we do plays that are very much talking about the world around us. Challenging, you know, and we're in Texas, it's, you know, sort of purple state now, kind of exciting purple parts. At least Dallas is hopefully this election goes that way. So, you know, it's, we, I feel like our place in the Dallas Zeki is important because, you know, we're not doing, there are a lot of people that do traditional plays and do them well, you know, like straight ahead, you know, musicals or you know, the odd couple or whatever.5 (48m 53s):Notice this gesture, the odd couple and doing great. But we do new, we do newer plays. We're a founding member of the National New Play Network. And so that's kind of kept it relevant and kept it exciting. The work exciting to me. I love working with new plays and new ideas and we have a company of artists, some of which went to smu and I, I think I've stayed here this long because, you know, I feel like I can, I, I do, I am able to do the kind of work I wanna do. I'm able to choose the plays I wanna be in or direct and I feel like they're important for my community. And when it becomes that, it's not that then I need to leave or step downs is my feeling.5 (49m 37s):I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. I dunno.2 (49m 40s):Yeah. So many people say that, that they, that they, they keep their allegiances to theater companies because it's, it's often the work that they really, you know, f feel moves them is very, you know, is very inspiring. But then you also got the opportunity to do a very good part in something that was commercial, which is breaking bad. So could you tell us anything about your, how you were born into that project?5 (50m 8s):Sure, sure. The, I, you know, I got an agent, did you know, I had no experience, no resume. So you did the couple of walk on, you know, like, I'm in the back of a bank commercial, fantastic. Or whatever, $50. I love it. Did that and Lucked into Robert Altman. Came to town and did a very terrible movie called Dr. T and the Women. But it was a fantastic experience and I was one of the nurses and I was on set every day pretty much. So he's told me, he told us, he's like, I'll make you a lot of money. You're not gonna be seen a lot. You'll be here every day. And we got out by five and I was able to do plays at night. Like it was, it was Chef's kiss the best, like you just kind of learned from the master.5 (50m 52s):Like he is a, he truly was a master god rest his soul. Anyway, so I started auditioning more, did some walkers cuz everybody does did Walker back in the time Walker, Texas Ranger. It's like1 (51m 2s):The er we'd all did the ER and the early ion in Chicago. That was my so walker, same thing. I love a good walker by the way, Texas Ranger.5 (51m 13s):So ridiculous. Yeah, I think one of my lines in one of the episodes I was in was like, you won't put this on your lighty friends tabs. Like it was so country. Anyway, it terrible. But so with the breaking bad thing, I, I read the sides. It actually was the, the person who was casting locals or whatever, not locals cuz it was shooting in New Mexico, but it was a woman in Tony Cobb Brock who was casting in Dallas. And so we got the sides, I got the call to come in and audition for it. I read it and I was like, you know, and this is the story I've told a lot, but it's the truth, which is I read it and I was like, It's gonna be a blonde, big boobs woman. Like that's what I thought when I read it, I was like, it's gonna be this.5 (51m 54s):That's what it's gonna be. Cuz there were a lot of jokes about boobs and you're killing me with that booty. Like there was a lot more to that scene. My first scene there was a lot more. So I was like, whatever. I was like, it's not, I'm, you know, I'm a plus size lady, I have brown hair, I have a, you know, deep voice. Like, oh well. So I was like, why do I feel good in, So I just wore, I remember I wore this Betsy Johnson dress that, cause I was kind of into Rocky Billy Swing at the time. This Betsy Johnson little dress with apples was real sexy and this little shrug and had my hair kind of fancy. And I was like, I'm wearing this. I don't give a shit. So I, I was like, I feel good in this, Who cares? So I walked in and there were a bunch of ladies that were blonde and had professional lady outfits on and I was like, Oh shit, I should have dressed like a secretary.5 (52m 38s):Why did I dress like this? Oh damn. And I was like, Okay, well whatever. It's, you're not, you're not gonna book this so who cares? Went in, I had a great audition, made Tony laugh and you know, it was what it was. And so I went away and I didn't hear anything for a while. So I was like, oh, I didn't book that. Oh well. And I was sitting in an audition for some commercial and I never booked commercials. I just don't, cuz I look one way and then my voice comes out and they're like, Oh, you can't play the young mom because you seem like Jeanine Garofalo or something. So your bite and smile is scary, ma'am. So I was waiting in the, waiting in the waiting room and my agent calls, or I got paged or, you know, cause it was that so long ago.5 (53m 23s):And she was like, Can you be on a plane in three hours? And luckily I wasn't doing a play at the time. And I said, Yeah, I can. And she's like, Well you booked it. You, you should go and so you should go home and pack and go to Southwests. And that was the story. And so I get there and you know, whatever found out that, you know, it's Bob and Kirk and start losing my mind and all this stuff. But what's crazy is, it's a crazy story. And then on when in season four finale, breaking bad spoiler alert, if you haven't watched it, but you're,2 (53m 52s):You're late if you haven't watched it. Like5 (53m 54s):It's, that's2 (53m 55s):On you.5 (53m 56s):Please watch it cuz I need, Mama needs to keep getting residuals. Cause she's, you know, not Yeah. But that final episode where I have a great scene with Brian Cranston. There's a, there was a podcast, Insider podcast, which I wasn't aware of, but they talked to Vince about, you know, Oh, who's she and how did you cast her? You know, cause this was my first like, actual scene, you know, like, boy, I don't, I have more than two lines. And he tells the story of like, and this, I just love this story, which is like, basically he had seen a lot of people that he didn't think was right. He wanted something. They kept showing him the same type and he was like, no, I I it needs to be something different. He's a different kind of guy. I wanted somebody who'd challenge him, you know, different looking. And the casting woman who had Kira, I can't remember her last name, but she had, you know, I'd auditioned for her a few times, been put on tape.5 (54m 43s):I don't know that it necessarily booked anything. She's like, Well there is this one girl, I think she's great. She's probably not right. I physically, she's prob I don't think she's right, but do you wanna see? And so he showed her and he was like, That's exactly what I want. And then I booked it. And so it's crazy. So you just never know. I mean I think that's the, I think that's the walkaway.1 (55m 2s):Okay. This is the,5 (55m 3s):This1 (55m 4s):Is the craziest thing. This is crazy. So I booked a show in New Mexico called Perpetual Grace. Kira cast it and Kira showed me to Steve Conrad, who's the showrunner in James Whitaker who was directing the episode. I looked nothing like the other people. My agent Casey called me and said, Can you get on a plane in three hours? You5 (55m 29s):Gonna1 (55m 29s):New Mexico? Same casting director, St. Kira,2 (55m 34s):The Kira, all these people, Kira,1 (55m 38s):Kira talk5 (55m 39s):Me. Well, and it's like that thing, you know, like you, you know, I think that's always the big takeaway, right? Is, is, and you know, and I, I think I read this not to feel like I'm fucking namedropping I'm not. But like, I read this I think in Brian's book too. But like, the thing is, is like all you can do is just like, just, they're calling you in for a reason. So you just have to say like, what is it in me? What's unique about me? That's this role? And lean into it and go for it in that regard because that's all you got. Like as soon as you start and I find myself doing this, I have to keep reminding myself, you know, to do this. Which is I'll read something like, oh it's this and try to play to what I think it is. Versus like, no, what is it in me?5 (56m 19s):That's this. And that's the thing I book when I do that, when I try to do the other other thing, you know? Totally. And start getting your own head.2 (56m 28s):The time5 (56m 28s):On here, God,2 (56m 30s):By the way, regarding name dropping, I never understand why anybody gets upset about that. I, it's like, well they're people that, you know, the people that you work with, they're people in your life. I mean, you're just saying their name. It's, it's not like you're cloud chasing. But anyway, that, that's insight. Girl. Walk me back to this day where you take three hours to get on the airplane. I wanna know how fast did you have to rush home to pack? What did you do? Did you have enough stuff? What was it like when you were on the airplane? Did you order a drink because you felt so fancy? Tell us everything.5 (56m 57s):Well, all I know is I had a bag and I got, I ran home, I had a roommate at the time, thank God. And I just said, Can you feed my cat? Cause I, I had a cat at the time. I was like, Please feed Loretta. And so I got this bag and just threw, it was really like, just stuff thrown in and I was like, do I need to bring the dress and shoes that I wore that, So I brought the whole outfit cuz I was like, cuz the jobs, some of the jobs I'd been on, I had to bring my own shit or whatever, you know, you have to bring your whole wardrobe and be like, Oh you want none of this? Great, I'll put it all back in my car. So I just threw that in there and then I just threw some random, I don't even know what I packed and, you know, ran to the airport, got on the plane, I think I did have a jack and coat cuz I was just like, I'm so freaked out in the plane.5 (57m 43s):Of course you know, you're going to New Mexico, so you're going over those mountains and you're just like, okay, I'm gonna die also great, but I don't wanna die. I just booked a big job or whatever. And then I remember the landing and getting in the van thing and they took me straight to the hotel and I, I remember opening cuz they, back then they, you know, you would get like your sides in an envelope like that in the, in the later years. That shit never, you never got printed stuff ever because people would steal it and whatever else. So I remember pulling it out and seeing Bob's name and freaking, oh, cause I was a huge Mr.5 (58m 23s):Show fan and I was just like, oh my god, oh my god. And I just remember calling my fr I have a friend Aaron Ginsburg, who's kind of an LA Hollywood dude or whatever. And I was like, Oh my god, oh my god. And he was like, Thanks for this spoiler. And I was like, Oh shit, I'm not supposed to tell people. And I was like, but I'm freaking out. And he was like, No, no, it's okay. I will tell no one. I was like, don't tell anyone I don't wanna get fired. But yeah, so I just remember sitting there and freaking out and trying to look at my lines and, you know, what am I, oh God. And then going there with my clo my little bag of dresses or whatever and they're like, we don't want any of this crap.2 (58m 57s):They're like, this is a high budget show. We got, we got costumes covered5 (59m 1s):Back then. I don't, I know back then, I don't know if they were that high budget, but it was interesting to me. The one thing is, is just how involved the showrunners of that show Peter and or Vince at the time, and then later Peter and Vince. But like, they have a color palette they have where they want the characters to go. Like I had, you know, that it got really paired down. I ended up having like, you know, just a few lines. But they took so many pictures, different outfits, different setups and like different color tones, like just setting what they wanted for my character. And I was like, holy shit or whatever. And they were, everybody was so, and everybody was so nice and friendly.5 (59m 43s):It's really remember your name to hear1 (59m 45s):And I'm glad you talked about it. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm in the rainstorm. So sorry. But like, it's so weird to be, I'm in the Midwest right now and I live in la so coming back here, I'm like, what is that noise? It's fucking fucked up and it's the fucking rain. Anyway, so what is so beautiful about this story to me is that even if we feel small, right? Like whatever, these people who are creating these iconic shows have such vision. There is literally no small character. Like these are their children and they have arcs they have. So it just makes me appreciate as creators, as artists, how much time love, energy goes into characters and storylines.1 (1h 0m 31s):And then we see maybe, maybe if we're lucky one eighth of it, but just know like the shit matters. Right? Like a5 (1h 0m 39s):Thousand percent. And that's the same thing with like, the same thing with Robert Altman. I mean like we were, you know, he, you know, I got to be part of one of those ma his signature long tracking shots, right? He, he would walk in the room and be like, Okay, what's going on in here? So what are you guys doing? What are you, what's happening? And I was like, Well where this, that? And he's like, Great, keep that. And when I come across I want you to be in this moment. You know? So like, and he's like, Teen are things like where he's following on my shoulder and Tina, I need you to do this and this is what's happening. And I've tried, I want, I'm just gonna think about some lines, just throw these out. You know? It was just, I don't know. And that's the same thing with Vince and with Peter. Like, they were really like, what is she wearing? Why is she wearing this? Where are you? Like, you know, what's going on?5 (1h 1m 19s):And like they were like, the scripts were so good. It was like you had to be letter perfect. Barry's like, oh it's a lot of improv. And I'm like, no,1 (1h 1m 26s):No. But2 (1h 1m 26s):Also it sounded like theater, the attention to, to detail and the, and the sort of like the vision and the way that, and you, that just comes through in the best series. The A tours you, you know, that they've thought about and5 (1h 1m 38s):They all love2 (1h 1m 38s):Theater, right? Yeah, right.5 (1h 1m 39s):They all love theater. They all do.2 (1h 1m 41s):So a bit ago you said something about how the, like lustiness that Saul, you know, Jimmy feels for Francesca didn't, you know, necessarily a lot of that didn't necessarily make it into at least your first episode, but it got revisited and Better Call Saul. And I really appreciated that because I was like, Oh yeah, I, I would've wanted to see more of that. You know, I, I wanted to see more of that like lush stage dynamic. But you had,5

Trick or Tweet? Elon Musk buys Twitter to impose his half-formed ideas about free speech on the online world. Will he just make things worse? Suella Braverman doggedly refuses to take responsibility for either her emails or the migrant processing crisis. How long can she hang on? Plus, Labour's attack lines for the Sunak Era. And why is Hallowe'en growing while Bonfire Night fizzles? “Somehow even Priti Patel is showing more moral backbone than Suella Braverman.” – Hannah Fearn “Sunak is finally, finally the evidence of Cameron detoxifying the Tory Party." – Ahir Shah “Halloween is Goth Christmas. What's not to love?” – Marie Le Conte Written and presented by Andrew Harrison with Hannah Fearn, Marie le Conte and Ahir Shah. Producers: Jacob Archbold and Jelena Sofronijevic. Assistant producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production: Alex Rees. Theme music by Cornershop. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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It's the hope that kills you. We didn't have lots, but c'mon Rishi – Braverman? You know when a band reforms, with a couple of members swapped out for session musicians? Imagine they were always crap and it's not a band, it's the Cabinet. We chat through the no-shuffle. Plus, guest Adam Wagner, author of Emergency State: How We Lost Our Freedoms in the Pandemic and Why it Matters, to discuss his book and the imminent torching of more EU regulations. “If you're going to do sensible politics, you're not going to give Braverman any job. Sunak has given up the chance to be mature.” – Ian Dunt “This government knows this is their last chance to win back any credibility in the country.” – Ros Taylor “Sunak just looks like a political hangover.” – Ian Dunt “Braverman was genuinely the worst Attorney General, and as Home Secretary she was a walking disaster.” – Adam Wagner www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Presented by Dorian Lynskey with Ian Dunt and Ros Taylor. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Alex Rees, Jacob Archbold and Jelena Sofronijevic. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Alex Rees. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brian Potter is the author of the excellent Construction Physics blog, where he discusses why the construction industry has been slow to industrialize and innovate.He explains why:* Construction isn't getting cheaper and faster,* We should have mile-high buildings and multi-layer non-intersecting roads,* “Ugly” modern buildings are simply the result of better architecture,* China is so great at building things,* Saudi Arabia's Line is a waste of resources,* Environmental review makes new construction expensive and delayed,* and much much more!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.More really cool guests coming up; subscribe to find out about future episodes!You may also enjoy my interviews with Tyler Cowen (about talent, collapse, & pessimism of sex). Charles Mann (about the Americas before Columbus & scientific wizardry), and Austin Vernon about (Energy Superabundance, Starship Missiles, & Finding Alpha).If you end up enjoying this episode, I would be super grateful if you share it, post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast and Mia Aiyana for producing its transcript.Timestamps(0:00) - Why Saudi Arabia's Line is Insane, Unrealistic, and Never going to Exist (06:54) - Designer Clothes & eBay Arbitrage Adventures (10:10) - Unique Woes of The Construction Industry  (19:28) - The Problems of Prefabrication (26:27) - If Building Regulations didn't exist… (32:20) - China's Real Estate Bubble, Unbound Technocrats, & Japan(44:45) - Automation and Revolutionary Future Technologies (1:00:51) - 3D Printer Pessimism & The Rising Cost of Labour(1:08:02) - AI's Impact on Construction Productivity(1:17:53) - Brian Dreams of Building a Mile High Skyscraper(1:23:43) - Deep Dive into Environmentalism and NEPA(1:42:04) - Software is Stealing Talent from Physical Engineering(1:47:13) - Gaps in the Blog Marketplace of Ideas(1:50:56) - Why is Modern Architecture So Ugly?(2:19:58) - Advice for Aspiring Architects and Young Construction PhysicistsTranscriptWhy Saudi Arabia's Line is Insane, Unrealistic, and Never going to Exist Dwarkesh Patel Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Brian Potter, who is an engineer and the author of the excellent Construction Physics blog, where he writes about how the construction industry works and why it has been slow to industrialize and innovate. It's one of my favorite blogs on the internet, and I highly, highly recommend that people check it out. Brian, my first question is about The Line project in Saudi Arabia. What are your opinions? Brian Potter It's interesting how Saudi Arabia and countries in the Middle East, in general, are willing to do these big, crazy, ambitious building projects and pour huge amounts of money into constructing this infrastructure in a way that you don't see a huge amount in the modern world. China obviously does this too in huge amounts, some other minor places do as well, but in general, you don't see a whole lot of countries building these big, massive, incredibly ambitious projects. So on that level, it's interesting, and it's like, “Yes, I'm glad to see that you're doing this,” but the actual project is clearly insane and makes no sense. Look at the physical arrangement layout–– there's a reason cities grow in two dimensions. A one-dimensional city is the worst possible arrangement for transportation. It's the maximum amount of distance between any two points. So just from that perspective, it's clearly crazy, and there's no real benefit to it other than perhaps some weird hypothetical transportation situation where you had really fast point-to-point transportation. It would probably be some weird bullet train setup; maybe that would make sense. But in general, there's no reason to build a city like that. Even if you wanted to build an entirely enclosed thing (which again doesn't make a huge amount of sense), you would save so much material and effort if you just made it a cube. I would be more interested in the cube than the line. [laughs] But yeah, those are my initial thoughts on it. I will be surprised if it ever gets built. Dwarkesh Patel Are you talking about the cube from the meme about how you can put all the humans in the world in a cube the size of Manhattan? Brian Potter Something like that. If you're just going to build this big, giant megastructure, at least take advantage of what that gets you, which is minimum surface area to volume ratio.Dwarkesh Patel Why is that important? Would it be important for temperature or perhaps other features? Brian Potter This is actually interesting because I'm actually not sure how sure it would work with a giant single city. In general, a lot of economies of scale come from geometric effects. When something gets bigger, your volume increases a lot faster than your surface area does. So for something enclosed, like a tank or a pipe, the cost goes down per thing of unit you're transporting because you can carry a larger amount or a smaller amount of material. It applies to some extent with buildings and construction because the exterior wall assembly is a really burdensome, complicated, and expensive assembly. A building with a really big floor plate, for instance, can get more area per unit, per amount of exterior wall. I'm not sure how that actually works with a single giant enclosed structure because, theoretically, on a small level, it would apply the same way. Your climate control is a function of your exterior surface, at some level, and you get more efficient climate control if you have a larger volume and less area that it can escape from. But for a giant city, I actually don't know if that works, and it may be worse because you're generating so much heat that it's now harder to pump out. For examples like the urban heat island effect, where these cities generate massive amounts of waste heat, I don't know if that would work if it didn't apply the same way. I'm trying to reach back to my physics classes in college, so I'm not sure about the actual mechanics of that. Generally though, that's why you'd want to perhaps build something of this size and shape. Dwarkesh Patel What was the thought process behind designing this thing? Because Scott Alexander had a good blog post about The Line where he said, presumably, that The Line is designed to take up less space and to use less fuel because you can just use the same transportation across. But the only thing that Saudi Arabia has is space and fuel. So what is the thought process behind this construction project? Brian PotterI get the sense that a lot of committees have some amount of success in building big, impressive, physical construction projects that are an attraction just by virtue of their size and impressiveness. A huge amount of stuff in Dubai is something in this category, and they have that giant clock tower in Jeddah, the biggest giant clock building and one of the biggest buildings in the world, or something like that. I think, on some level, they're expecting that you would just see a return from building something that's really impressive or “the biggest thing on some particular axis”. So to some extent, I think they're just optimizing for big and impressive and maybe not diving into it more than that. There's this theory that I think about every so often. It's called the garbage can theory of organizational decision-making, which basically talks about how the choices that organizations make are not the result of any particular recent process. They are the result of how, whenever a problem comes up, people reach into the garbage can of potential solutions. Then whatever they pull out of the garbage can, that's the decision that they end up going with, regardless of how much sense it makes. It was a theory that was invented by academics to describe decision-making in academia. I think about that a lot, especially with reference to big bureaucracies and governments. You can just imagine the draining process of how these decisions evolve. Any random decision can be made, especially when there's such a disconnect between the decision-makers and technical knowledge.Designer Clothes & eBay Arbitrage Adventures Dwarkesh PatelTell me about your eBay arbitrage with designer clothes. Brian Potter Oh man, you really did dive deep. Yeah, so this was a small business that I ran seven or eight years ago at this point. A hobby of mine was high-end men's fashion for a while, which is a very strange hobby for an engineer to have, but there you go. That hobby centers around finding cheap designer stuff, because buying new can be overwhelmingly expensive. However, a lot of times, you can get clothes for a very cheap price if you're even a little bit motivated. Either it shows up on eBay, or it shows up in thrift stores if you know what to look for. A lot of these clothes can last because they're well-made. They last a super, super, super long time–– even if somebody wore it for 10 years or something, it could be fine. So a lot of this hobby centered around finding ways to get really nice clothes cheaply. Majority of it was based around eBay, but it was really tedious to find really nice stuff on eBay. You had to manually search for a bunch of different brands, filter out the obviously bad ones, search for typos in brands, put in titles, and stuff like that. I was in the process of doing this, and I thought, “Oh, this is really annoying. I should figure out a way to automate this process.” So I made a very simple web app where when you searched for shoes or something, it would automatically search the very nice brands of shoes and all the typos of the brand name. Then it would just filter out all the junk and let you search through the good stuff. I set up an affiliate system, basically. So anybody else that used it, I would get a kick of the sales. While I was interested in that hobby, I ran this website for a few years, and it was reasonably successful. It was one of the first things I did that got any real traction on the internet, but it was never successful in proportion to how much effort it took to maintain and update it. So as I moved away from the hobby, I eventually stopped putting time and effort into maintaining the website. I'm curious as to how you even dug that up. Dwarkesh Patel I have a friend who was with you at the Oxford Refugees Conference, Connor Tabarrok. I don't know if you remember him. Brian Potter Nice. Dwarkesh Patel Yeah. Finding other information about you on the internet was quite difficult actually. You've somehow managed to maintain your anonymity. If you're willing to reveal, what was the P&L of this project? Brian Potter Oh, it made maybe a few hundred dollars a month for a few years, but I only ever ran it as a side hobby business, basically. So in terms of time per my effort or whatever, I'm sure it was very low. Pennies to an hour or something like that. Unique Woes of The Construction Industry   Dwarkesh Patel A broad theme that I've gotten from your post is that the construction industry is plagued with these lossy feedback loops, a lack of strong economies of scale, regulation, and mistakes being very costly. Do you think that this is a general characteristic of many industries in our world today, or is there something unique about construction? Brian Potter Interesting question. One thing you think of is that there are a lot of individual factors that are not unique at all. Construction is highly regulated, but it's not necessarily more regulated than medical devices or jet travel, or even probably cars, to some extent, which have a whole vat of performance criteria they need to hit. With a couple of things like land use, for example, people say, “Oh, the land requirements, could you build it on-site,” explaining how those kinds of things make it difficult. But there is a lot that falls into this category that doesn't really share the same structure of how the construction industry works.I think it's the interaction of all those effects. One thing that I think is perhaps underappreciated is that the systems of a building are really highly coupled in a way that a lot of other things are. If you're manufacturing a computer, the hard drive is somewhat independent from the display and somewhat independent from the power supply. These things are coupled, but they can be built by independent people who don't necessarily even talk to each other before being assembled into one structured thing. A building is not really like that at all. Every single part affects every single other part. In some ways, it's like biology. So it's very hard to change something that doesn't end up disrupting something else. Part of that is because a job's building is to create a controlled interior environment, meaning, every single system has to run through and around the surfaces that are creating that controlled interior. Everything is touching each other. Again, that's not unique. Anything really highly engineered, like a plane or an iPhone, share those characteristics to some extent. In terms of the size of it and the relatively small amount you're paying in terms of unit size or unit mass, however, it's quite low. Dwarkesh Patel Is transportation cost the fundamental reason you can't have as much specialization and modularity?Brian Potter Yeah, I think it's really more about just the way a building is. An example of this would be how for the electrical system of your house, you can't have a separate box where if you needed to replace the electrical system, you could take the whole box out and put the new box in. The electrical system runs through the entire house. Same with plumbing. Same with the insulation. Same with the interior finishes and stuff like that. There's not a lot of modularity in a physical sense. Dwarkesh Patel Gotcha. Ben Kuhn  had this interesting comment on your article where he pointed out that many of the reasons you give for why it's hard to innovate in construction, like sequential dependencies and the highly variable delivery timelines are also common in software where Ben Koon works. So why do you think that the same sort of stagnation has not hit other industries that have superficially similar characteristics, like software? Brian Potter How I think about that is that you kind of see a similar structure in anything that's project-based or anything where there's an element of figuring out what you're doing while you're doing it. Compared to a large-scale manufacturing option where you spend a lot of time figuring out what exactly it is that you're building. You spend a lot of time designing it to be built and do your first number of runs through it, then you tweak your process to make it more efficient. There's always an element of tweaking it to make it better, but to some extent, the process of figuring out what you're doing is largely separate from the actual doing of it yourself. For a project-based industry, it's not quite like that. You have to build your process on the fly. Of course, there are best practices that shape it, right? For somebody writing a new software project or anything project-based, like making a movie, they have a rough idea for how it's going to go together. But there's going to be a lot of unforeseen things that kind of come up like that. The biggest difference is that either those things can often scale in a way that you can't with a building. Once you're done with the software project, you can deploy it to 1,000 or 100,000, or 1 million people, right? Once you finish making a movie, 100 million people can watch it or whatever. It doesn't quite look the same with a building. You don't really have the ability to spend a lot of time upfront figuring out how this thing needs to go. You kind of need to figure out a way to get this thing together without spending a huge amount of time that would be justified by the sheer size of it. I was able to dig up a few references for software projects and how often they just have these big, long tails. Sometimes they just go massively, massively over budget. A lot of times, they just don't get completed at all, which is shocking, but because of how many people it can then be deployed to after it's done, the economics of it are slightly different. Dwarkesh Patel I see, yeah. There's a famous law in software that says that a project will take longer than you expect even after you recount for the fact that it will take longer than you expect. Brian Potter Yeah. Hofstadter's law or something like that is what I think it is. Dwarkesh Patel Yeah. I'm curious about what the lack of skill in construction implies for startups. Famously, in software, the fact that there's zero marginal cost to scaling to the next customer is a huge boon to a startup, right? The entire point of which is scaling exponentially. Does that fundamentally constrain the size and quantity of startups you can have in construction if the same scaling is not available?Brian Potter Yeah, that's a really good question. The obvious first part of the answer is that for software, obviously, if you have a construction software company, you can scale it just like any other software business. For physical things, it is a lot more difficult. This lack of zero marginal cost has tended to fight a lot of startups, not just construction ones. But yeah, it's definitely a thing. Construction is particularly brutal because the margins are so low. The empirical fact is that trying what would be a more efficient method of building doesn't actually allow you to do it cheaper and get better margins. The startup that I used to work at, Katerra, their whole business model was basically predicated on that. “Oh, we'll just build all our buildings in these big factories, get huge economies of scale, reduce our costs, and then recoup the billions of dollars that we're pumping into this industry or business.” The math just does not work out. You can't build. In general, you can't build cheap enough to kind of recoup those giant upfront costs. A lot of businesses have been burned that way. The most success you see in prefabrication type of stuff is on the higher end of things where you can get higher margins. A lot of these prefab companies and stuff like that tend to target the higher end of the market, and you see a few different premiums for that. Obviously, if you're targeting the higher end, you're more likely to have higher margins. If you're building to a higher level of quality, that's easier to do in a factory environment. So the delta is a lot different, less enormous than it would be. Building a high level of quality is easier to do in a factory than it is in the field, so a lot of buildings or houses that are built to a really high level of energy performance, for instance, need a really, really high level of air sealing to minimize how much energy this house uses. You tend to see a lot more houses like that built out of prefab construction and other factory-built methods because it's just physically more difficult to achieve that on-site. The Problems of Prefabrication Dwarkesh Patel Can you say more about why you can't use prefabrication in a factory to get economies of scale? Is it just that the transportation costs will eat away any gains you get? What is going on? Brian PotterThere's a combination of effects. I haven't worked through all this, we'll have to save this for the next time. I'll figure it out more by then. At a high level, it's that basically the savings that you get from like using less labor or whatever is not quite enough to offset your increased transportation costs. One thing about construction, especially single-family home construction, is that a huge percentage of your costs are just the materials that you're using, right? A single-family home is roughly 50% labor and 50% materials for the construction costs. Then you have development costs, land costs, and things like that. So a big chunk of that, you just can't move to the factory at all, right?  You can't really build a foundation in a factory. You could prefab the foundation, but it doesn't gain you anything. Your excavation still has to be done on-site, obviously. So a big chunk can't move to the factory at all. For ones that can, you still basically have to pay the same amount for materials. Theoretically, if you're building truly huge volume, you could get material volume discounts, but even then, it's probably not looking at things like asset savings. So you can cut out a big chunk of your labor costs, and you do see that in factory-built construction, right? These prefab companies are like mobile home companies. They have a small fraction of labor as their costs, which is typical of a factory in general, but then they take out all that labor cost while they still have their high material costs, and then they have overhead costs of whatever the factory has cost them. Then you have your additional overhead cost of just transporting it to site, which is pretty limited. The math does not really work out in favor of prefab, in terms of being able to make the cost of building dramatically cheaper. You can obviously build a building in a prefab using prefab-free methods and build a successful construction business, right? Many people do. But in terms of dramatically lowering your costs, you don't really see that. Dwarkesh Patel Yeah, yeah. Austin Vernon has an interesting blog post about why there's not more prefabricated homes. The two things he points out were transportation costs, and the other one was that people prefer to have homes that have unique designs or unique features. When I was reading it, it actually occurred to me that maybe they're actually both the result of the same phenomenon. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly, but have you heard of the Alchian-Allen theorem in economics? Brian Potter Maybe, but I don't think so. Dwarkesh Patel Basically, it's the idea that if you increase the cost of some category of goods in a fixed way––let's say you tax oranges and added a $1 tax to all oranges, or transportation for oranges gets $1 more expensive for all oranges––people will shift consumption towards the higher grade variety because now, the ratio of the cost between the higher, the more expensive orange and the less expensive orange has decreased because of the increase in fixed costs. It seems like you could use that argument to also explain why people have strong preferences for uniqueness and all kinds of design in manufactured houses. Since transportation costs are so high, that's basically a fixed cost, and that fixed cost has the effect of making people shift consumption towards higher-grade options. I definitely think that's true. Brian PotterI would maybe phrase this as, “The construction industry makes it relatively comparatively cheap to deliver a highly customized option compared to a really repetitive option.” So yeah, the ratio between a highly customized one and just a commodity one is relatively small. So you see a kind of industry built around delivering somewhat more customized options. I do think that this is a pretty broad intuition that people just desire too much customization from their homes. That really prevents you from having a mass-produced offering. I do think that is true to some extent. One example is the Levittown houses, which were originally built in huge numbers–– exactly the same model over and over again. Eventually, they had to change their business model to be able to deliver more customized options because the market shipped it. I do think that the effect of that is basically pretty overstated. Empirically, you see that in practice, home builders and developers will deliver fairly repetitive housing. They don't seem to have a really hard time doing that. As an example, I'm living in a new housing development that is just like three or four different houses copy-pasted over and over again in a group of 50. The developer is building a whole bunch of other developments that are very similar in this area. My in-laws live in a very similar development in a whole different state. If you just look like multi-family or apartment housing, it's identical apartments, you know, copy-pasted over and over again in the same building or a bunch of different buildings in the same development. You're not seeing huge amounts of uniqueness in these things. People are clearly willing to just live in these basically copy-pasted apartments. It's also quite possible to get a pretty high amount of product variety using a relatively small number of factors that you vary, right? I mean, the car industry is like this, where there are enough customization options. I was reading this book a while ago that was basically pushing back against the idea that the car industry pre-fifties and sixties we just offering a very uniform product. They basically did the math, and the number of customization options on their car was more than the atoms in the universe. Basically just, there are so many different options. All the permutations, you know, leather seats and this type of stereo and this type of engine, if you add it all up, there's just a huge, massive number of different combinations. Yeah, you can obviously customize the house a huge amount, just by the appliances that you have and the finishes that are in there and the paint colors that you choose and the fixtures and stuff like that. It would not really theoretically change the underlying way the building comes together. So regarding the idea that the fundamental demand for variety is a major obstruction, I don't think there's a whole lot of evidence for that in the construction industry. If Construction Regulation Vanished… Dwarkesh Patel I asked Twitter about what I should ask you, and usually, I don't get interesting responses but the quality of the people and the audience that knows who you are was so high that actually, all the questions I got were fascinating. So I'm going to ask you some questions from Twitter. Brian Potter Okay. Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:45Connor Tabarrok asks, “What is the most unique thing that would or should get built in the absence of construction regulation?”Brian Potter Unique is an interesting qualifier. There are a lot of things that just like should get built, right? Massive amounts of additional housing and creating more lands in these really dense urban environments where we need it, in places like San Francisco–– just fill in a big chunk of that bay. It's basically just mud flat and we should put more housing on it. “Unique thing” is more tricky. One idea that I really like (I read this in the book, The Book Where's My Flying Car),  is that it's basically crazy that our cities are designed with roads that all intersect with each other. That's an insane way to structure a material flow problem. Any sane city would be built with multiple layers of like transportation where each one went in a different direction so your flows would just be massively, massively improved. That just seems like a very obvious one.If you're building your cities from scratch and had your druthers, you would clearly want to build them and know how big they were gonna get, right? So you could plan very long-term in a way that so these transportation systems didn't intersect with each other, which, again, almost no cities did. You'd have the space to scale them or run as much throughput through them as you need without bringing the whole system to a halt. There's a lot of evidence saying that cities tend to scale based on how much you can move from point A to point B through them. I do wonder whether if you changed the way they went together, you could unlock massively different cities. Even if you didn't unlock massive ones, you could perhaps change the agglomeration effects that you see in cities if people could move from point A to point B much quicker than they currently can. Dwarkesh Patel Yeah, I did an episode about the book, where's my flying car with Rohit Krishnan. I don't know if we discussed this, but an interesting part of the book is where he talks about transistor design. If you design transistors this way, can you imagine how slow they would be? [laughs] Okay, so Simon Grimm asks, “What countries are the best at building things?”Brian Potter This is a good question. I'm going to sort of cheat a little bit and do it in terms of space and time, because I think most countries that are doing a good job at building massive amounts of stuff are not ones that are basically doing it currently.The current answer is like China, where they just keep building–– more concrete was used in the last 20 years or so than the entire world used in the time before that, right? They've accomplished massive amounts of urbanization, and built a lot of really interesting buildings and construction. In terms of like raw output, I would also put Japan in the late 20th century on there. At the peak of the concern and wonder of “Is Japan gonna take over the world?”, they were really interested in building stuff quite quickly. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to use their robotics expertise to try to figure out how to build buildings a lot more quickly. They had these like really interesting factories that were designed to basically extrude an entire skyscraper just going up vertically.All these big giant companies and many different factories were trying to develop and trying to do this with robotics. It was a really interesting system that did not end up ever making economic sense, but it is very cool. I think big industrial policy organs of the government basically encouraged a lot of these industrial companies to basically develop prefabricated housing systems. So you see a lot of really interesting systems developed from these sort of industrial companies in a way that you don't see in a lot of other places. From 1850 to maybe 1970 (like a hundred years or something), the US was building huge massive amounts of stuff in a way that lifted up huge parts of the economy, right? I don't know how many thousands of miles of railroad track the US built between like 1850 and 1900, but it was many, many, many thousands of miles of it. Ofcourse, needing to lay all this track and build all these locomotives really sort of forced the development of the machine tool industry, which then led to the development of like better manufacturing methods and interchangeable parts, which of course then led to the development of the automotive industry. Then ofcourse, that explosion just led to even more big giant construction projects. So you really see that this ability to build just big massive amounts of stuff in this virtuous cycle with the US really advanced a lot of technology to raise the standard of development for a super long period of time. So those are my three answers. China's Real Estate Bubble, Unbound Technocrats, and JapanDwarkesh Patel Those three bring up three additional questions, one for each of them! That's really interesting. Have you read The Power Broker, the book about Robert Moses? Brian Potter I think I got a 10th of the way through it. Dwarkesh Patel That's basically a whole book in itself, a 10th of the way. [laughs] I'm a half of the way through, and so far it's basically about the story of how this one guy built a startup within the New York state government that was just so much more effective at building things, didn't have the same corruption and clientelism incompetence. Maybe it turns into tragedy in the second half, but so far it's it seems like we need this guy. Where do we get a second Robert Moses? Do you think that if you had more people like that in government or in construction industries, public works would be more effectively built or is the stagnation there just a result of like other bigger factors? Brian Potter That's an interesting question. I remember reading this article a while ago that was complaining about how horrible Penn Station is in New York. They're basically saying, “Yeah, it would be nice to return to the era of like the sort of unbound technocrat” when these technical experts in high positions of power in government could essentially do whatever they wanted to some extent. If they thought something should be built somewhere, they basically had the power to do it. It's a facet of this problem of how it's really, really hard to get stuff built in the US currently. I'm sure that a part of it is that you don't see these really talented technocrats occupy high positions of government where they can get stuff done. But it's not super obvious to me whether that's the limiting factor. I kind of get the sense that they would end up being bottlenecked by some other part of the process. The whole sort of interlocking set of institutions has just become so risk averse that they would end up just being blocked in a way that they wouldn't when they were operating in the 1950s or 1960s.Dwarkesh Patel Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. All right, so speaking of Japan, I just recently learned about the construction there and how they just keep tearing stuff down every 30 to 40 years and rebuilding it. So you have an interesting series of posts on how you would go about building a house or a building that lasts for a thousand years. But I'm curious, how would you build a house or a building that only lasts for 30 or 40 years? If you're building in Japan and you know they're gonna tear it down soon, what changes about the construction process? Brian Potter Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I'm not an expert on Japanese construction, but I think like a lot of their interior walls are basically just paper and stuff like that. I actually think it's kind of surprising that last time I looked, for a lot of their homes, they use a surprising post and beam construction method, which is actually somewhat labor-intensive to do. The US in the early 1800s used a pretty similar method. Then once we started mass producing conventional lumber, we stopped doing that because it was much cheaper to build out of two-by-fours than it was to build big heavy posts. I think the boring answer to that question is that we'd build like how we build mobile homes–– essentially just using pretty thin walls, pretty low-end materials that are put together in a minimal way. This ends up not being that different from the actual construction method that single-family homes use. It just even further economizes and tightens the use of materials–– where a single-family home might use a half inch plywood, they might try to use three-sixteenths or even an eighth inch plywood or something like that. So we'd probably build a pretty similar way to the way most single-family homes and multi-family homes are built currently, but just with even tighter use of materials which perhaps is something that's not super nice about the way that you guys build your homes. But... [laughs]Dwarkesh Patel Okay, so China is the third one here. There's been a lot of talk about a potential real estate bubble in China because they're building housing in places where people don't really need it. Of course, maybe the demographics aren't there to support the demand. What do you think of all this talk? I don't know if you're familiar with it, but is there a real estate bubble that's created by all this competence in building? Brian PotterOh, gosh, yeah, I have no idea. Like you, I've definitely heard talk of it and I've seen the little YouTube clips of them knocking down all these towers that it turns out they didn't need or the developer couldn't, finish or whatever. I don't know a huge amount about that. In general, I wish I knew a lot more about how things are built in China, but the information is in general, so opaque. I generally kind of assume that any particular piece of data that comes out of China has giant error bars on it as to whether it's true or not or what the context surrounding it is. So in general, I do not have a hard opinion about that. Dwarkesh Patel This is the second part of Simon's question, does greater competence and being able to build stuff translate into other good outcomes for these countries like higher GDP or lower rents or other kinds of foreign outcomes? Brian Potter That's a good question. Japan is an interesting place where basically people point to it as an example of, “Here's a country that builds huge amounts of housing and they don't have housing cost increases.” In general, we should expect that dynamic to be true. Right? There's no reason to not think that housing costs are essentially a supply-demand problem where if you built as much as people wanted, the cost would drop. I have no reason to not think that's true. There is a little bit of evidence that sort of suggests that it's impossible to build housing enough to overcome this sort of mechanical obstacle where the cost of it tends to match and rise to whatever people's income level are. The peak and the sort of flattening of housing costs in Japan also parallel when people basically stopped getting raises and income stopped rising in Japan. So I don't have a good sense of, if it ends up being just more driven by some sort of other factors. Generally though I expect the very basic answer of “If you build a lot more houses, the housing will become cheaper.”Dwarkesh PatelRight. Speaking of how the land keeps gaining value as people's income go up, what is your opinion on Georgism? Does that kind of try and make you think that housing is a special asset that needs to be more heavily taxed because you're not inherently doing something productive just by owning land the way you would be if you like built a company or something similar?Brian Potter I don't have any special deep knowledge of Georgism. It's on my list of topics to read more deeply about. I do think in general, taxing encourages you to produce less of something for something that you can't produce less of. It's a good avenue for something to tax more heavily. And yeah, obviously if you had a really high land value tax in these places that have a lot of single-family homes in dense urban areas, like Seattle or San Francisco, that would probably encourage people to use the land a lot more efficiently. So it makes sense to me, but I don't have a ton of special knowledge about it. Dwarkesh Patel All right, Ben Kuhn asked on Twitter, “What construction-related advice would you give to somebody building a new charter city?”Brian Potter That is interesting. I mean, just off the top of my head, I would be interested in whether you could really figure out a way to build using a method that had really high upfront costs. I think it could otherwise be justified, but if you're gonna build 10,000 buildings or whatever all at once, you could really take advantage of that. One kind of thing that you see in the sort of post-World War II era is that we're building huge massive amounts of housing, and a lot of times we're building them all in one place, right? A lot of town builders were building thousands and thousands of houses in one big development all at once. In California, it's the same thing, you just built like 6 or 10 or 15,000 houses in one big massive development. You end up seeing something like that where they basically build this like little factory on their construction site, and then use that to like fabricate all these things. Then you have something that's almost like a reverse assembly line where a crew will go to one house and install the walls or whatever, and then go to the next house and do the same thing. Following right behind them would be the guys doing the electrical system, plumbing, and stuff like that. So this reverse assembly line system would allow you to sort of get these things up really, really fast, in 30 days or something like that. Then you could have a whole house or just thousands and thousands of houses at once. You would want to be able to do something similar where you could just not do the instruction the way that the normal construction is done, but that's hard, right? Centrally planned cities or top-down planned cities never seem to do particularly well, right? For example, the city of Brasilia, the one that was supposed to be a planned city— the age it goes back to the unfettered technocrat who can sort of build whatever he wants. A lot of times, what you want is something that will respond at a low level and organically sort out the factories as they develop. You don't want something that's totally planned from the top-down, that's disconnected from all the sorts of cases on the ground. A lot of the opposition to Robert Moses ended up being that in a certain form, right? He's bulldozing through these cities that are these buildings and neighborhoods that he's not paying attention to at all. So I think, just to go back to the question, trying to plan your city from the top down doesn't have a super, super great track record. In general, you want your city to develop a little bit more organically. I guess I would think to have a good sort of land-use rules that are really thought through well and encourage the things that you want to encourage and not discourage the things that you don't want to discourage. Don't have equity in zoning and allow a lot of mixed-use construction and stuff like that. I guess that's a somewhat boring answer, but I'd probably do something along those lines. Dwarkesh Patel Interesting, interesting. I guess that implies that there would be high upfront costs to building a city because if you need to build 10,000 homes at once to achieve these economies of scale, then you would need to raise like tens of billions of dollars before you could build a charter city. Brian Potter Yeah, if you were trying to lower your costs of construction, but again, if you have the setup to do that, you wouldn't necessarily need to raise it. These other big developments were built by developers that essentially saw an opportunity. They didn't require public funding to do it. They did in the form of loan guarantees for veterans and things like that, but they didn't have the government go and buy the land. Automation and Revolutionary Future Technologies Dwarkesh Patel Right, okay, so the next question is from Austin Vernon. To be honest, I don't understand the question, you two are too smart for me, but hopefully, you'll be able to explain the question and then also answer it. What are your power rankings for technologies that can tighten construction tolerances? Then he gives examples like ARVR, CNC cutting, and synthetic wood products. Brian Potter Yeah, so this is a very interesting question. Basically, because buildings are built manually on site by hand, there's just a lot of variation in what ends up being built, right? There's only so accurately that a person can put something in place if they don't have any sort of age or stuff like that. Just the placement itself of materials tends to have a lot of variation in it and the materials themselves also have a lot of variation in them. The obvious example is wood, right? Where one two by four is not gonna be exactly the same as another two by four. It may be warped, it may have knots in it, it may be split or something like that. Then also because these materials are sitting just outside in the elements, they sort of end up getting a lot of distortion, they either absorb moisture and sort of expand and contract, or they grow and shrink because of the heat. So there's just a lot of variation that goes into putting a building up.To some extent, it probably constrains what you are able to build and how effectively you're able to build it. I kind of gave an example before of really energy efficient buildings and they're really hard to build on-site using conventional methods because the air ceiling is quite difficult to do. You have to build it in a much more precise way than what is typically done and is really easily achieved on-site. So I guess in terms of examples of things that would make that easier, he gives some good ones like engineered lumber, which is where you take lumber and then grind it up into strands or chips or whatever and basically glue them back together–– which does a couple of things. It spreads all the knots and the defects out so they are concentrated and everything tends to be a lot more uniform when it's made like that. So that's a very obvious one that's already in widespread use. I don't really see that making a substantial change.I guess the one exception to that would be this engineered lumber product called mass timber elements, CLT, which is like a super plywood. Plywood is made from tiny little sheet thin strips of wood, right? But CLT is made from two-by-four-dimensional lumber glued across laminated layers. So instead of a 4 by 9 sheet of plywood, you have a 12 by 40 sheet of dimensional lumber glued together. You end up with a lot of the properties of engineered material where it's really dimensionally stable. It can be produced very, very accurately. It's actually funny that a lot of times, the CLT is the most accurate part of the building. So if you're building a building with it, you tend to run into problems where the rest of the building is not accurate enough for it. So even with something like steel, if you're building a steel building, the steel is not gonna be like dead-on accurate, it's gonna be an inch or so off in terms of where any given component is. The CLT, which is built much more accurately, actually tends to show all these errors that have to be corrected. So in some sense, accuracy or precision is a little bit of like a tricky thing because you can't just make one part of the process more precise. In some ways that actually makes things more difficult because if one part is really precise, then a lot of the time, it means that you can't make adjustments to it easily. So if you have this one really precise thing, it usually means you have to go and compensate for something else that is not built quite as precisely. It actually makes advancing precision quite a bit more complicated. AR VR, is something I'm very bullish on. A big caveat of that is assuming that they can just get the basic technology working. The basic intuition there is that right now the way that pieces are, when a building is put together on site, somebody is looking at a set of paper plans, or an iPad or something that tells them where everything needs to go. So they figure that out and then they take a tape measure or use some other method and go figure out where that's marked on the ground. There's all this set-up time that is really quite time consuming and error prone. Again, there's only so much accuracy that a guy dragging a tape 40 feet across site being held by another guy can attain, there's a limit to how accurate that process can be. It's very easy for me to imagine that AR would just project exactly where the components of your building need to go. That would A, allow you a much higher level of accuracy that you can easily get using manual methods. And then B, just reduce all that time it takes to manually measure things. I can imagine it being much, much, much faster as well, so I'm quite bullish on that. At a high level and a slightly lower level, it's not obvious to me if they will be able to get to the level where it just projects it with perfect accuracy right in front of you. It may be the case that a person moving their head around and constantly changing their point of view wont ever be able to project these things with millimeter precision––it's always gonna be a little bit jumpy or you're gonna end up with some sort of hard limit in terms of like how precisely you can project it. My sense is that locator technology will get good enough, but I don't have any principle reason believing that. The other thing is that being able to take advantage of that technology would require you to have a really, really accurate model of your building that locates where every single element is precisely and exactly what its tolerances are. Right now, buildings aren't designed like that, they are built using a comparatively sparse set of drawings that leaves a lot to sort of be interpreted by the people on site doing the work and efforts that have tried to make these models really, really, really precise, have not really paid off a lot of times. You can get returns on it if you're building something really, really complex where there's a much higher premium to being able to make sure you don't make any error, but for like a simple building like a house, the returns just aren't there. So you see really comparatively sparse drawings. Whether it's gonna be able to work worth this upfront cost of developing this really complex, very precise model of where exactly every component is still has to be determined. There's some interesting companies that are trying to move in this direction where they're making it a lot easier to draw these things really, really precisely and whave every single component exactly where it is. So I'm optimistic about that as well, but it's a little bit TBD. Dwarkesh Patel This raises a question that I actually wanted to ask you, which is in your post about why there aren't automatic brick layers. It was a really interesting post. Somebody left in an interesting comment saying that bricks were designed to be handled and assembled by humans. Then you left a response to that, which I thought was really interesting. You said, “The example I always reach for is with steam power and electricity, where replacing a steam engine with an electric motor in your factory didn't do much for productivity. Improving factory output required totally redesigning the factory around the capabilities of electric motors.” So I was kind of curious about if you apply that analogy to construction, then what does that look like for construction? What is a house building process or building building process that takes automation and these other kinds of tools into account? How would that change how buildings are built and how they end up looking in the end? Brian Potter I think that's a good question. One big component of the lack of construction productivity is everything was designed and has evolved over 100 years or 200 years to be easy for a guy or person on the site to manipulate by hand. Bricks are roughly the size and shape and weight that a person can move it easily around. Dimensional lumber is the same. It's the size and shape and weight that a person can move around easily. And all construction materials are like this and the way that they attach together and stuff is the same. It's all designed so that a person on site can sort of put it all together with as comparatively little effort as possible. But what is easy for a person to do is usually not what is easy for a machine or a robot to do, right? You typically need to redesign and think about what your end goal is and then redesign the mechanism for accomplishing that in terms of what is easy to get to make a machine to do. The obvious example here is how it's way easier to build a wagon or a cart that pulls than it is to build a mechanical set of legs that mimics a human's movement. That's just way, way, way easier. I do think that a big part of advancing construction productivity is to basically figure out how to redesign these building elements in a way that is really easy for a machine to produce and a machine to put together. One reason that we haven't seen it is that a lot of the mechanization you see is people trying to mechanize exactly what a person does. You'd need a really expensive industrial robot that can move exactly the way that a human moves more or less. What that might look like is basically something that can be really easily extruded by a machine in a continuous process that wouldn't require a lot of finicky mechanical movements. A good example of this technology is technology that's called insulated metal panels, which is perhaps one of the cheapest and easiest ways to build an exterior wall. What it is, is it's just like a thin layer of steel. Then on top of that is a layer of insulation. Then on top of that is another layer of steel. Then at the end, the steel is extruded in such a way that it can like these inner panels can like lock together as they go. It's basically the simplest possible method of constructing a wall that you can imagine. But that has the structural system and the water barrier, air barrier, and insulation all in this one really simple assembly. Then when you put it together on site, it just locks together. Of course there are a lot of limitations to this. Like if you want to do anything on top of like add windows, all of a sudden it starts to look quite a bit less good. I think things that are really easy for a machine to do can be put together without a lot of persistent measurement or stuff like that in-field. They can just kind of snap together and actually want to fit together. I think that's kind of what it looks like. 3D Printer Pessimism & The Rising Cost of LabourDwarkesh Patel What would the houses or the buildings that are built using this physically look like? Maybe in 50 to 100 years, we'll look back on the houses we have today and say, “Oh, look at that artisanal creation made by humans.” What is a machine that is like designed for robots first or for automation first? In more interesting ways, would it differ from today's buildings? Brian Potter That's a good question. I'm not especially bullish on 3D building printing in general, but this is another example of a building using an extrusion process that is relatively easy to mechanize. What's interesting there is that when you start doing that, a lot of these other bottlenecks become unlocked a little bit. It's very difficult to build a building using a lot of curved exterior surfaces using conventional methods. You can do it, it's quite expensive to do, but there's a relatively straightforward way for a 3D-printed building to do that. They can build that as easily as if it was a straight wall. So you see a lot of interesting curved architecture on these creations and in a few other areas. There's a company that can build this cool undulating facade that people kind of like. So yeah, it unlocks a lot of options. Machines are more constrained in some things that they can do, but they don't have a lot of the other constraints that you would otherwise see. So I think you'll kind of see a larger variety of aesthetic things like that. That said, at the end of the day, I think a lot of the ways a house goes together is pretty well shaped to just the way that a person living inside it would like to use. I think Stewart Brand makes this point in––Dwarkesh Patel Oh, How Buildings Learn. Brian Potter There we go. He basically makes the point that a lot of people try to use dome-shaped houses or octagon-shaped houses, which are good because, again, going back to surface area volume, they include lots of space using the least amount of material possible. So in some theoretical sense, they're quite efficient, but it's actually quite inconvenient to live inside of a building with a really curved wall, right? Furniture doesn't fit up against it nicely, and pictures are hard to hang on a really curved wall. So I think you would see less variation than maybe you might expect. Dwarkesh Patel Interesting. So why are you pessimistic about 3D printers? For construction, I mean. Brian Potter Yeah, for construction. Oh God, so many reasons. Not pessimistic, but just there's a lot of other interesting questions. I mean, so the big obvious one is like right now a 3D printer can basically print the walls of a building. That is a pretty small amount of the value in a building, right? It's maybe 7% or 8%, something like that. Probably not more than 10% of the value in a building. Because you're not printing the foundation, you're not printing like the overhead vertical, or the overhead spanning structure of the building. You're basically just printing the walls. You're not even really printing the second story walls that you have in multiple stories. I don't think they've quite figured that out yet. So it's a pretty small amount of value added to the building. It's frankly a task that is relatively easy to do by manual labor. It's really pretty easy for a crew to basically put up the structure of a house. This is kind of a recurring theme in mechanization or it goes back to what I was talking about to our previous lead. Where it takes a lot of mechanization and a lot of expensive equipment to replace what basically like two or three guys can do in a day or something like that. The economics of it are pretty brutal. So right now it produces a pretty small value. I think that the value of 3D printing is basically entirely predicated on how successful they are at figuring out how to like deliver more components of the building using their system. There are companies that are trying to do this. There's one that got funded not too long ago called Black Diamond, where they have this crazy system that is like a series of 3D printers that would act simultaneously, like each one building a separate house. Then as you progress, you switch out the print head for like a robot arm. Cause a 3D printer is basically like a robot arm with just a particular manipulator at the end, right?So they switch out their print head for like a robot arm, and the robot arm goes and installs different other systems like the windows or the mechanical systems. So you can figure out how to do that reliably where your print head or your printing system is installing a large fraction of the value of the building. It's not clear to me that it's gonna be economic, but it obviously needs to reach that point. It's not obvious to me that they have gotten there yet. It's really quite hard to get a robot to do a lot of these tasks. For a lot of these players, it seems like they're actually moving away from that. I think in ICON is the biggest construction 3D printer company in the US, as far as I know. And as far as I know, they've moved away from trying to install lots of systems in their walls as they get printed. They've kind of moved on to having that installed separately, which I think has made their job a little bit easier, but again, not quite, it's hard to see how the 3D printer can fulfill its promises if it can't do anything just beyond the vertical elements, whichare really, for most construction, quite cheap and simple to build. Dwarkesh Patel Now, if you take a step back and talk how expensive construction is overall, how much of it can just be explained by the Baumol cost effect? As in labor costs are increasing because labor is more productive than other industries and therefore construction is getting more expensive. Brian Potter I think that's a huge, huge chunk of it. The labor fraction hasn't changed appreciably enough. I haven't actually verified that and I need to, but I remember somebody that said that they used to be much different. You sent me some literature related to it. So let's add a slight asterisk on that. But in general the labor cost has remained a huge fraction of the overall cost of the building. Reliably seeing their costs continue to rise, I think there's no reason to believe that that's not a big part of it. Dwarkesh Patel Now, I know this sounds like a question with an obvious answer, but in your post comparing the prices of construction in different countries, you mentioned how the cost of labor and the cost of materials is not as big a determiner of how expensive it is to construct in different places. But what does matter? Is it the amount of government involvement and administrative overhead? I'm curious why those things (government involvement and administrative overhead) have such a high consequence on the cost of construction. Brian Potter Yeah, that's a good question. I don't actually know if I have a unified theory for that. I mean, basically with any heavily regulated thing, any particular task that you're doing takes longer and is less reliable than it would be if it was not done right. You can't just do it as fast as on your own schedule, right? You end up being bottlenecked by government processes and it reduces and narrows your options. So yeah, in general, I would expect that to kind of be the case, but I actually don't know if I have a unified theory of how that works beyond just, it's a bunch of additional steps at any given part of the process, each of which adds cost. Dwarkesh Patel Yeah. Now, one interesting trend we have in the United States with construction is that a lot of it is done by Latino workers and especially by undocumented Latino workers. What is the effect of this on the price and the quality of construction? If you have a bunch of hardworking undocumented workers who are working for below-market rates in the US, will this dampen the cost of construction over time? What do you think is going to happen? Brian Potter I suspect that's probably one of the reasons why the US has comparatively low construction costs compared to other parts of the world. Well, I'll caveat that. Residential construction, which is single-family homes and multi-family apartment buildings all built in the US and have light framed wood and are put together, like you said, by a lot of like immigrant workers. Because of that, it would not surprise me if those wages are a lot lower than the equivalent wage for like a carpenter in Germany or something like that. I suspect that's a factor in why our cost of residential construction are quite low. AI's Impact on Construction ProductivityDwarkesh Patel Overall, it seems from your blog post that you're kind of pessimistic, or you don't think that different improvements in industrialization have transferred over to construction yet. But what do you think is a prospect of future advances in AI having a big impact on construction? With computer vision and with advances in robotics, do you think we'll finally see some carry-over into construction productivity or is it gonna be more of the same? Brian Potter Yeah, I think there's definitely gonna be progress on that axis. If you can wire up your computer vision systems, robotic systems, and your AI in such a way that your capabilities for a robot system are more expanded, then I kind of foresee robotics being able to take a larger and larger fraction of the tasks done on a typical construction site. I kind of see it being kind of done in narrow avenues that gradually expand outward. You're starting to see a lot of companies that have some robotic system that can do one particular task, but do that task quite well. There's a couple of different robot companies that have these little robots for like drawing wall layouts on like concrete slabs or whatever. So you know exactly where to build your walls, which you would think would not be like a difficult problem in construction, but it turns out that a lot of times people put the walls in the wrong spot and then you have to go back and move them later or just basically deal with it. So yeah, it's basically a little Roomba type device that just draws the wall layout to the concrete slab and all the other systems as well–– for example, where the lines need to run through the slab and things like that. I suspect that you're just gonna start to see robotics and systems like that take a larger and larger share of the tasks on the construction site over time. Dwarkesh Patel Yeah, it's still very far away. It's still very far away. What do you think of Flow? That's Adam Neumann's newest startup and backed with $350 million from Andreeseen Horowitz.Brian Potter I do not have any strong opinions about that other than, “Wow, they've really given him another 350M”. I do not have any particularly strong opinions about this. They made a lot they make a lot of investments that don't make sense to me, but I'm out of venture capital. So there's no reason that my judgment would be any good in this situation–– so I'm just presuming they know something I do not. Dwarkesh Patel I'm going to be interviewing Andreeseen later this month, and I'm hoping I can ask him about that.Brian Potter You know, it may be as simple as he “sees all” about really high variance bets. There's nobody higher variance in the engine than Adam Neumann so, maybe just on those terms, it makes sense. Dwarkesh Patel You had an interesting post about like how a bunch of a lot of the knowledge in the construction industry is informal and contained within best practices or between relationships and expectations that are not articulated all the time. It seems to me that this is also true of software in many cases but software seems much more legible and open source than these other physical disciplines like construction despite having a lot of th

This week, Dan & dawn talk about the different types of followers and submissive and rank them!...do we rank them?    # EA635 - Types of S types **Dan:** [00:00:00] This week on Erotic Awakening versions of followers, master school and unknown tentacle.  **dawn:** Welcome to Erotic Awakening, an exploration of all things erotic. If you are offended by adult topics or prohibited by law, we recommend you stop listening right now.  **Dan:** When you support erotic awakening via Patron, you're not only helping support the educational mission for our community, but you'll also receive ad free early access to the podcast, free eBooks, exclusive chats, and other content. **dawn:** Thank you to all of our supporters, including our newest one, Jeff. Yay, Jeff. Hi, Jeff.  **Dan:** Hi, Dawn.  **dawn:** Hi, Dan.  **Dan:** Today on the podcast you have no clue what we're gonna be talking about and I'll explain it to you in just a minute. er of fact, I'm not even gonna wait a minute. I'm gonna tell you right now. Are you now? Yes. Dawn some people use the term property, slave submissive. We're gonna use a generic term called follower to encompass all that. Awesome. You are a follower. Yes, sir. And what kind of follower  are [00:01:00] you? What kind of follower am I? I'm an obedient follower. . Except when I'm not. Except when you're not . Which is not usual, but what kind of follower am I as if. As in, I know, but I'm not.  Are you a, So there's a variety of types of followers, right? Indeed. , I'm gonna name one. You tell me what it is,  **dawn:** what it is.  **Dan:** Okay. Sexual  **dawn:** service. Usually sexual service means that is all you are a slave of is the sexual side of things. How  **Dan:** about. Administrative slave.  **dawn:** Again, that just means you do administrative stuff. Usually there's not sex involved or play or things like that. It's just about being the right hand of the master.  **Dan:** What would you call our friend? I don't know her fat name. Shea's girl.  **dawn:** Oh do they even have a name? I think they use lower level. Okay. Because they [00:02:00] follow that kind of, that that show Victorian style of Yeah, it's Victorian style. Abby Downton. Abby, right? . I don't know that they actually have a name for it though. Okay.  **Dan:** So what about tip slave? You remember tip?  **dawn:** What was Temp Slave service  **Dan:** Temp Slave was, and that's a name, a nice name that we call Half for somebody. , who, She was very much a service orientated person.  **dawn:** Oh yeah. She didn't wanna name, She was it was a, she knew we called her Temp Slave. That's what we called her, was Temp Slave. She knew it was for a temporary thing and it was all about service. It had to, I had come outta surgery. And it was all about doing the things that I couldn't do and taking me to appointments and things like that. But you guys negotiated a back and forth, but it was still service. You taught her something for what she provided. So that was really cool.  **Dan:** So the common thread in all these. Is that there is a give and take that there is a, I'm gonna teach you a thing. , I'm gonna do a thing for you and you're gonna provide a service for me. . In [00:03:00] the case of a sexual slave, it might be I'm gonna drive you to deep slutty lands. In the case of a service submissive you, it might be you're gonna take care of my dog and my car, and I'm gonna teach you leather protocol. Et cetera, et  **dawn:** cetera. And that's why I didn't have a label for me because I'm not really a service slave, which is a title a lot of followers use. Even though I do a lot of service and I like doing service for you, I'm not in particular a service follower like our friend. A  **Dan:** is it okay then to. Is there is an administrative and where you, and people use different terminology, but we're gonna use a terminology that people I think are gonna easily understand what we're talking about. , if you're an administrative slave, your thing is taking care of. Logistics and paperwork, and that's the kind of service that you wanna provide. It's a service slave of a sort, right? Very specific sort. If that's your jam. [00:04:00] And then next to you, there's a service slave who likes, they're gonna polish your boots and make sure you've got a drink in your hand. And then there's a sexual slave standing next to them. And next to them there's somebody who identifies this property. who says, which is more mine? Not in this case, I'm gonna define property as I'm only gonna do, I'm gonna do anything you tell me to do, but I'm only gonna tell, do what you tell me to do otherwise, Oh God. It, I'm gonna be in standby. We've got all them standing there. And then next to them all is standing is you, who is pretty much a jack of all trades, right? , if I need sexual service, you provide sexual service. , if I need administrative or just straight up service, whatever you're gonna provide it. Absolutely. In that situation, which, so rank those slaves, which one is the best kind to be?  **dawn:** Oh, they don't get ranked. No. Everyone's got their own thing. No, I don't think you can rank them. I  **Dan:** completely agree. It was a trick question. Good . Yeah.  **dawn:** [00:05:00] It all, I dunno where you were going with that. I don't know how to, everybody's got their thing that turns them on. It doesn't make you know somebody better than the other just because they have a certain path. I was gonna say goal, but goal's not necessarily the right word But Pat is a different path. It's a great idea. Yeah.  **Dan:** Not only that, not only what kind of service resonates with you. . There's also the aspect of. , you may not even wanna be a full-time any of those things. you may have a very temporary power exchange of saying, You know what, On Tuesday nights I'm gonna come over. I'll be your slu, your sex slave. Or on, every weekend we'll go to an event and I'll be your service slave. But other than that, I'm not even interested in your power exchange aspects.  **dawn:** One of the first books I read was actually training by Mrs. Abernathy. Or something like that. And I think one of her books is outta print right now. But that was one of the books that I used to loan out after I read it because, It talked about what kind of follower are you? And there were like four different things and you took quizzes [00:06:00] to figure out which one you fit in and stuff like that. And there, there was never any word of one was better than the other. , it was more of discovering who you were, what turned you on, and what you had skills in and things like that. So yeah. Yeah.  **Dan:** I totally agree. None of them are better than others. And that, and not that's really all I wanted to get to. If Okay. If you are finding. Y you feel like you are lacking because somebody else does more or does things differently, or all you wanna do is provide a particular type of service? It, there's no lacking, There's different strokes for different folks, and it's completely acceptable to be in whatever. You feel authentic for you.  **dawn:** Exactly. And I actually have a little story on that cuz we are storytellers, right? Remember the MA meeting we went to in Jersey a couple of years ago and we split off at that MAs meeting and the dominant, and they do this sometimes at master enslave meetings. The dominant stayed in the living room and talked about something and the followers went into the bedroom and we sat in a circle and talked about [00:07:00] something. , That was one of the questions. What kind of follower are you? And it was service, I don't know. Service. Service. And then someone said obedient. And that's why I popped up with obedient. , And they said, I'm an obedient follower, as in that's what turns me on. And I'm like, Oh good, because everybody was saying service. Doesn't thrill me. I, that's not my thing. And then it got around to a new person and they were like, You know what? I don't think I fit in here. I'm not that kind of follower. I just wanna obey orders. I don't, I'm not into service and stuff like that. And they thought they were less then. . And that's why I like to bring up, I have nothing against service followers. I mean it, your thing is your thing. But then I always bring up that's not always my thing, and I only bring. because there is that person out there that is only seeing one kind of follower. . I just like to let 'em know that there's all kinds of followers. Yeah. Like we're saying right here.  **Dan:** And the last thing you wanna do is be [00:08:00] on the fe life and have some dom say if you're not willing to turn over everything in your life to me mm-hmm. you're clearly not a real submissive or something like that. Yeah. That's all crappy crap. . So we talked about the diff, kindness, different types of followers. , what do these cities have in Conman Cities? Yes. Okay. Phoenix, Detroit, Dayton, Toronto, and Montana.  **dawn:** They sound familiar. They give. Oh, they sound familiar. Yes. For  **Dan:** a reason, because Montana is not a city, it's a state. Aha. . Also, you and I will be presenting in these places in the coming months. We will, but how would I know when and where? Oh, okay. I just told you where, But why would I know where?  **dawn:** Or what we're doing right? So keep up with all of our events, book news and discount and more via the Erotic Awakening Newsletter. **Dan:** And get your ea shout out like EBA from Kenya.  **dawn:** Ooh, nice and sunny from Germany. We're going all  **Dan:** international again. We are Head over to erotic [00:09:00] awakening.com and subscribe today. Awesome. Dawn, so earlier we were talking about follow. . Now I have a different question for you. If Okay. If there was, and we all, there is no right. Let me take a breath. . There is no school like this. Don't pretend there is one in the great houses of Europe. Okay? If there was though a school where Masters and leaders and Dom Doms all went, what would the final test be  **dawn:** if you could master yourself?  **Dan:** Ooh. Nice .  **dawn:** Okay. That's my thought. Anyway. I like how quickly that popped outta your mouth. Yeah, it's, that's of hard to judge though, right? So what does that mean? Can you master yourself? , can you dress yourself? Can you do your own clothes? Can you balance your bank account? And, but then it pops into my head. . Sometimes leaders and followers are teams. , the leader doesn't necessarily have to be able to balance the bank account if the follower has that [00:10:00] skill. How abouts,  **Dan:** instead of being skill-based. , can you master yourself emotionally?  **dawn:** You mean mature reactions to things?  **Dan:** That's what I mean, .  **dawn:** That could be one way.  **Dan:** Dawn, it's gonna be a quick show tonight. You guys can write it in and tell us what would be on your leader final  **dawn:** test. Oh, actually I do want to, I'll put that out there on our social media as well. Very good. And see if people do have answers. This is a really quick one. We wanted to make sure to get a show done tonight because we have done a lot of traveling over the last three weeks. Can we throw that out there real fast because we did, we parked our r. In Colorado Springs, the dog and the rv. Stayed there for three weeks. We went to Edmonton, which I'm hoping we talked about on a podcast somewhere. We did. So we went to Edmonton and then we came home. We rodee a cog, train up Pikes Peak. We did the laundry and then we flew [00:11:00] to Chicago Kinky College where we saw, met up with so many of our friends. I love Kinky  **Dan:** College. Yes. And. Oh yeah. Do have some notes about that. So next year we can talk about Kinky College, cuz I've got fabulous a variety of little notes written around.  **dawn:** Okay. So we came back from Kinky College and we said goodbye to our friend that came out to watch Ginger Theup. . And then guess what we did? You slept well, we did that too. And then I did laundry again, . We found out snow was coming, so we decided to leave Colorado and brought the cold weather with us to New  **Dan:** Mexico. So here we are in the Albuquerque, New Mexico. If you are in the area as always, please reach out to us. We would love to have coffee with you and heck, I'll be reaching out to you soon. Awesome.  **dawn:** Yeah, so Heay reached out and said that they were in this area. Can I run through some tentacle pictures really  **Dan:** fast? It is Halloween, so you seem to be of a little bit of a  **dawn:** backlog Holy cow. Look at this backlog. All right Oh, I've actually got 'em up this time. So Enigma keeps sending wonderful stuff and [00:12:00] so we got, so on our discord, we have a channel called Pictures Not Safe for Work for our patrons, and they. All kinds of stuff. So Enigma is great with that. Let's see. Enigma men at Taurus. Joyful Wish. Banos. Another picture. It's not tentacles. Another enigma. We've got, Oh, wait, damn. I think this one's for you. Oh. That one's for you. Oh, yay. So that's from trave, so thank you. Trave on boobs. And we've got mins again. Oh, Julian. Thank you, Julian. More min. Taurus, more banos. Lots of tentacles, fucking people. Ooh. And that one's a, That one's a real person. That doesn't involve tentacles that's just sexy. Cool. Let me see.  **Dan:** Isn't that sexy?  **dawn:** That's fantastic. That is fantastic. Wow. Oh look, more for you. Food on boobs. You got ice cream and strawberries and chocolate chips. Awesome. [00:13:00] So that's book more Trave show. And then Mark. Oh, this is new. Hey, this is from Tumblr . So Mark said, went wandering around Tumblr and found this, and it's an octopus graphic. This is the third time I have heard Tumblr in the last two days. I know, because we also just taught for the annex library. So the in Colorado Springs, and they were talking about Tumblr there. So much stuff. I love this. And it's all Halloween here and . This is fabulous.  **Dan:** In dio. Take a moment to support the podcast head of Raiders on Apple podcast. Google Place. Ditch your Spotify of fire or wherever you listen. Or  **dawn:** just tell your friends you didn't sing. I did  **Dan:** not. Feel free to reach out to us. We love interacting with you.  **dawn:** Contact us with questions, podcast comments, or just to say  **Dan:** hi. You can find us as Dan and Dawn at Twitter and FetLife. We  **dawn:** are erotic awakening on Instagram. You use  **Dan:** the [00:14:00] links on the erotic awakening. To for the Facebook and the Discord,  **dawn:** or just email us at Dan and dawn erotic awakening.com by Dawn, by Dan.  

So Rishi Sunak, that bloke who couldn't use a contactless card, is set to bring total normality to No.10. How will this megabrained and approachable (he owns a hoodie) maestro, you may remember from such successes as ‘Eat Out to Help Out', lead us through this crisis? Plus, even if you've forgotten Liz Truss, the world hasn't forgotten us having her as PM – we look at the international reaction to her downfall.  “Johnson's fervent wish to destroy Sunak will not have gone away.” – Tom Peck "People imagine Rishi Sunak provides some economic ballast because he worked in the City. But he's provided no credible economic case for Brexit." – Tom Peck "Individuals making economic decisions looked at the slate of policies, and were horrified." – Alex Andreou "The occupants of No. 10 Downing Street will be richer than those of Buckingham Palace." – Yasmeen Serhan www.patreon.com/ohgodwhatnow Presented by Andrew Harrison with Alex Andreou, Tom Peck and Yasmeen Serhan. Group Editor: Andrew Harrison. Lead Producer: Jacob Jarvis. Producers: Alex Rees, Jacob Archbold and Jelena Sofronijevic. Assistant Producer: Kasia Tomasiewicz. Audio production by Alex Rees. OH GOD, WHAT NOW? is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Warning: It gets rather sweary. Craig and Chris (eventually) from Whit's The Script? are joined by Sean to discuss Terminator Genisys (2015). Is the time right for a reappraisal for the much-maligned fifth instalment in the Terminator series? Probably not, but here goes. Discussion Points: -Craig does a surprisingly good English accent. -They struggle to understand the withering criticism directed towards this instalment. -Craig has chosen this hill to die on and it has Terminator Genisys written all over it. -Expectations versus reality. -The strong pacing of the film. -The spoilers in the trailers. -Sean talks about giving films a second chance. -Chris arrives after 46 minutes and well any truly rains on Craig and Sean's Genisys-themed parade. -Sean inadvertently reveals his CD collection. Random Questions: -Does the John Connor-Terminator hybrid have a model number? -Is Sean popular enough to do 'hot takes'? -Is The Lost World (1997) better than the original? -Should they have binned John Connor and Katherine Connor (Nee Brewster) from Terminator Salvation (2009)? -Jai Courtney has won his way back into Sean's good books, but has he got into yours? -Is J.K. Simmons (Robocop) easy money? -Why couldn't they paint the tyres over the guy's face? -Do you have film quotes that you think about every now and again? -Will Sean ever give Spectre (2015) another try? -Chris wonders, was Sarah Connor needed in this film? -Does anyone ever read these notes? -Why does Sean suddenly get so sweary? -How do you say lore? Random Quotes: -"The North East, it's like Scottish people with their heeds kicked in"-Craig sums up the North East people. -"It's not unwatchable but it's pretty bloody close"-Sean is disgusted by Terminator: Dark Fate (2019). -"Expectation goes above realisation"-Craig sums up the initial reaction to sequels. -"It is very high-end CGI"-Sean actually praises some CGI. -"The first time I saw him, I thought Oh you can't act!" Sean remembers first seeing Jai Courtney in A Good Day to Die Hard (2013). -"Oh God it's bleeding in"-Sean says NIKE the American way. -"He [Sam Worthington] was totally unknown at that point...at least to me he was"-Sean really needs to get his ego in check soon. Shout-outs: -Carlo from 'The Movie Loot'. -Chatsunami and their wonderful Terminator series. Do Not Watch Recommendations: -Terminator: Dark Fate (2019). This episode is also available over at Whit's The Script?, please go over and listen to it from there (and here too please). Thanks for listening!

INTRODUCTION: Ryan Murphy and Netflix have collaborated to bring us a shocking rendition of the life and times of notorious serial killer + cannibal, Jeffrey Dahmer (Evan Peters). Jeffrey Dahmer was responsible for the murder of 17, mostly black and brown, young men and young boys. Dahmer would drug them, kill them, harvest their body parts and eat them. This series documents Dahmer's internal struggle, as well as, how the police failed everyone despite multitudinous warning signs. Please join Demi Wylde, the host of the Hookup Horror Stories podcast and De'Vannon, the host of the Sex, Drugs and Jesus podcast as they go through a review of the entire series. THEMES FOUND WITHIN THIS SERIES (But not limited to):  ·      Racism·      Homophobia·      Nature Vs. Nurture·      Hookup Culture Dangers·      Cannibalism ·      The Humanity In Dahmer·      Implications Of Dahmer's Childhood·      Grossly Flawed Legal System·      Dahmer's Fan Base·      Dahmer's Copycats·      Forgiveness vs. Unforgiveness  CONNECT WITH DEMI: Linktree: https://linktr.ee/demitriwylde   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Dahmer[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Ryan Murphy and Netflix have collaborated to bring us a shocking rendition of the life in times of notorious serial killer and cannibal. Jeffrey Dahmer, played by Evan Peters. Jeffrey Dahmer was responsible for the murder of 17. Mostly black and brown young men and boys. Dahmer would drug them, kill them, and harvest their body parts and eat them.This serious documents doer's internal struggle, as well as [00:01:00] how the police failed everyone, despite Multitudinous warning signs. Please joined Demitri Wylde. The host of the Hookup Horror Stories podcast and myself as we go through a review of this entire Netflix series.Demi: Welcome to Hookup Horror Stories. I'm W Wild. You're Resident Sexual deviant. De'Vannon: Hello, bitches. My name is Danna and I hosted Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. How you doing? Demi: How you doing? It is spooky season. So we are here talking about the show that is taking the internet by storm. Ryan Murphy's latest Netflix show Monster, the Jeffrey Daher story De'Vannon: C.All the while I was watching that Lady Gaga song Monster Within my Head, That boy is a monster and bitch. Did he not give meaning to the [00:02:00] term Eat Your Heart Out. Demi: Eat Your Heart Out. Actually, I think secretly that song was partially about him. De'Vannon: Lady Gaga song. Yeah, yeah, Demi: yeah. I could see that. And behold, I think like she was using him as like a reference to, you know, talk about a guy that she was, you know, , who De'Vannon: was a monster to her.Freaked out by I was, I was playing back the lyrics in my head. I asked my girlfriend if she seen you run before. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I have so much to say about all of this. Demi: Yeah. We've got a lot to talk about. This is a very extra special kind of crossover episode that I've never done before and I think it's really fun to talk about, especially for Halloween De'Vannon: season.Yeah. So we're doing a threeway with Jeffrey Dahmer than I ate, basically. And couldn't get any more creepier than that, but we're gonna do it because we're open minded and super freaky and so, I was inspired by Dahmer the other day. Well, inspired by the, not by him, but by the documentary, you know?Mm-hmm. , [00:03:00] and and I was like, I reached out to Deme and I was like, Girl, we need to do a show about this motherfucker. Let's talk about this. Demi was like, Let's release it on Halloween. I was like, Okay, let's, let's, let's, let's do it at the witching hour then, . That's Demi: right. That's right. Well, yeah, it, it is a witching hour.So obviously we've got our candles lit here De'Vannon: before we begin and get too far into it. I have mine that I'm going to light now. This little T light here, I'm lighting it out of respect for the people who Jeffrey Daher murdered, but not just the people he murdered, but also anybody who's departed this plane of existence in a very torturous brutal way like that.And so I don't know. Hopefully it shed some peace on them in the afterlife. Agree. And so, [00:04:00]as we say, in, in in positive energy circles for the good of all, or not at all, Demi: for the good of all, or not at all. I like that. Perfect. Amazing. Well, if you guys are watching this on video, you'll obviously receive this on both of our channels.Check it out. Boom. Otherwise just sit back and listen to what we're gonna talk about. Spoiler alerts and trigger warnings are in full effect, so get De'Vannon: ready. Yeah, it, we, we put spilling all the tea until every goddamn damn thing. So in fact, you can probably listen to this episode instead of watching the series.You feel like it cause we going through this bitch. Demi: Exactly. Well, we've got a lot to talk about so let's just get a little refresher on who Jeffrey Daher was. Shall we? De'Vannon: We shall first. He was hot. He was hot. I will say . Was he? I don't think so. Well that's cuz you really like black. [00:05:00]Demi: I mean, I'm hoping to all but like not him.First of all, he is so like plain Jane looking first of all, and second of all the glasses, the demeanor, the hair, just, I'm not feeling it at all. . De'Vannon: Now I'm talking about the younger hyn. Now I'm not talking about the older prison or whatever the fuck I'm talking about, that I'm not about the, the young one.Demi: Well, yeah, either way he, he's playing with those striped shirts, the button up. Uhuh. Can't do it. not my type of white boy. We're not gonna make you. No. So anyways, let's talk about Jeffrey Dahmer. So, Jeffrey Lionel Daher was also known as the Milwaukee Cannibal or the Milwaukee monster. He was an American serial killer and convicted sex offender who committed the murder and dismemberment of 17 men and boys between 1978 and 1991.Many of his later murders involved necrophilia, cannibalism, and the [00:06:00] permanent preservation of body parts. Typically parts of the skeleton. Although he was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, sty of personality disorder and psychotic disorder, he was convicted of 15 and 16 or 15 of the 16 murders he had committed in Wisconsin, and he was sentenced to 15 terms of life imprisonment on February 17th, 1992.Daher was later sentenced to a 16 term of life imprisonment for an additional homicide. Committed it in Ohio in 1978. On November 28th, 1994, Daher was beaten to death by Christopher Scarr, a fellow inmate at the Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wisconsin. His victim's names are all Steven Mark Hicks, who is 18, Steven Walter Tomi, who was 25.James Edward d Tater, who is 14? Richard Guro, who is 22? Anthony Lee Sears is 24. Raymond Lamont Smith, who is 32. Ernest Marque, Miller 22. David Courtney Thomas, who is 22. Curtis Dorell [00:07:00] Strader. Who is 17? Err. Lindsay. Who is 19? Tony Anthony Hughes, who is 31 Conac in, Who is 14? Matt Cleveland. Turner, Who is 20?Jeremiah Benjamin Weinberger, who is 23. Oliver. Joseph Lacey, who is 24. And Joseph Arthur Bradoff, who is 25.How do we feel? De'Vannon: I was taking, taking and giving everyone a moment of silence to just like take like that set in for a moment. Yeah. How do I feel? It reminds me of, of all the vigils we see on TV after mass school shootings and stuff like that. Yeah. You know, it's like when all the, all the, all the dead coming together.I'm just seeing like, you know, all the titty bears and the flowers and the candles on the ground. That, that's the imagery I'm getting. How about you? Demi: It's a lot to take in. I, I couldn't watch the show. In normally, like, I like to binge something that's not [00:08:00] one of those bingeable shows to me. That first episode had me just like, fully, like on edge, like, and I love horror.I love true crime. I don't get squeamish a whole lot. I was very squeamish by this. It was very visceral in my opinion. I just, I was like, Oh my God, what the fuck is happening? You know? Seeing these characters play out before he, before us, the actual murders themselves being portrayed in such a way, especially by Ryan Murphy about it just made everything so much more real.You know? Cause I've already known the story. I've already known what happened, but like, just seeing it played out was like, Holy shit. Like this is a little too much at times. It's De'Vannon: all great to have a a, a story, but it's all about how you tell it baby. And so let us give credit to those who told it. Now, Evan Peters is the star of this.And then like he said, like, like, like to me, said Ryan Murphy wrote it. And then I saw the name Ian Brennan come up as a lot of the writing. There were other people who wrote it too, but [00:09:00]mainly Ian Brennan. I'm partial to Ian Brennan cuz my boyfriend's name is Ian . So I'm here for all the Ian's of the world.And Demi's, one of Demi's favorite persons, Niecy Naja was in there giving life, serving face, , . Demi: She played such a good role, and I know that Glenda was, was a real person, but that character that she played and the stuff that she experienced was actually experienced by a lot of the other people that were like in the building or other people that had interactions.So she was kind of an amalgamation of like a bunch of people. I actually remember specifically the, the instance where the, the 14 year old where he actually, you know, he drilled the head and put acid in there and he was like, you know, comatose almost, but like still, he got up and he, and he ran. And so Glenda was like, and then I think another couple people were outside and they found the boy and then the police.Sent [00:10:00] them back in with, with Daher. It was like, Oh my God, what the hell is happening here? But she was fully giving me life the entire time especially in those moments where she really like cared to, but also that she wasn't heard. You know? She like, it was so, Oh my, I can't even like verbalize it. It was De'Vannon: messed up.Oh my darling, I will do my part to guide you through this emotional journey you were about to take , so the, I had two questions for you. Yeah. Before we get into the episode breakdowns, I just wanted to know what was the most heartbreaking part for you? Was it the scene you just described or with is something d.Demi: I mean, that one was obviously a heartbreaking, cuz I know how all of 'em really heartbreaking cuz I knew how they all ended. What was the, the, the def the deaf guy? I, I'm gonna Tony Hughes, Was that his name? De'Vannon: Oh God. He went through so many men. Honey, I couldn't keep up with the names. I know. Demi: I think that was, [00:11:00] I think that was his name.I could be wrong. I apologize if I am, but I'm really bad with names anyways. But yeah, the, the deaf boy he, that one was the most heartbreaking cause I knew how it played out and it was just so sad to see, like, it was hard for me to like peel away the kinda like monster mentality versus like kind of just like the need to connect with someone, Which I think a lot of people who are like dah.Feel, So I don't wanna like sympathize with a killer, you know? But I can understand how a person just wants to be connected to another person. And I think that was the closest thing that he had was with, was with Tony. And so far from the show, I'm not sure about real life. But you know, in the show it played out that way, that they actually had dates and they actually had, you know, time spent together and they spent the night together and , it was just so heartbreaking, you know?[00:12:00] Mm-hmm. . Oh, De'Vannon: well I feel for you darling. I feel for you that, that that part was super heartbreaking. And what stood out to me was that that's the deaf guy was the one who was trying to keep a classy, He actually didn't have his legs open the moment he met Jeffrey, and he was the one I know told him no, and I thought, I wonder if, because Jeffrey didn't kill him.He thought about it. He had the drugs to put it in his drink. Mm-hmm. and he put it back up. So this is, this is when we see Jeffrey trying to fight that monster within. And I'm thinking the deaf guys is somebody who's actually telling him no. Their little note he wrote said, You have to earn me cuz he didn't talk.So he told Jeffrey, You have to earn me. And this evoked a different response from Jeffrey. Yeah. You know, we see this in men, you know, quite often if you know, if, if, if, if you let them fuck you tonight they will. But if not, you know, they may just treat you with respect instead. And so, Demi: yeah, I mean that was what was most [00:13:00] heartbreaking for me was like that, that story with him.We all know how it ended clearly, but I'm not sure if they depicted this exactly, but Several of, of his victims. He actually like, kept around, like laid around while after he killed him. So like, he, they were in his apartment for like three days or whatever. Tony, he kept around for a while before he decided to get rid of him.It is just so strange, like seeing these like, kind of like, I don't want to humanize him, but like, it's just moments of like, Oh my God. Like, I kind of feel bad. I, this, this kid had, he was doomed from the beginning. He was doomed from the beginning. His mom was crazy. His dad taught him how to do this shitDe'Vannon: I, I think kind of like a part of the point of [00:14:00] this series was to bring out his humanity, because everybody knows. You know, he's the crazy bitch who killed all these people. Mm-hmm. , but the sensitive side with his history and background to my knowledge, had never been told before. And so I'm okay with looking at a person and seeing both the evil and the good in them.Right. And so, and I think that this series did a great job with that. The second question I had for you was, what, what, And the answer might be the same, but, you know, what was the most shocking part for you? Like something that you just not see coming, like, Oh bitch. Demi: Well, I don't think, I didn't see anything coming.Okay. I think the most shocking, but also not exactly I, I knew this was gonna happen anyways, was the fact that like the police that just were completely negligent in, in taking this seriously, [00:15:00]just. Got off on it, you know, it ju it was just so fucked. And I think that was what made me so angry at the very end was just like, Oh my God.Like here is this, this predator who is going after, you know, marginalized people. And whether intentionally or not, he, he was, he was doing it that these police officers just didn't want to get involved. You know, Even though Linda was calling them all the time, seeing their weird smells or there's body, you know, I, it's just mind boggling how, how messed up that shit is and how real it is.Cause it happens to this day still. De'Vannon: Right. What, what shocked me the most was the role that his parents played in it. His mom being on all the pills and the medication, which clearly scrambled his brain chemistry and his dad. Harboring the same sort of desires, but acting him out with animals and then teaching his son how to do the same thing.That's something [00:16:00] I never saw coming. I was shocked about that. Demi: Yeah. I mean, that part, the fact that his, at the very end they were talking about keeping his brain mm-hmm. to study it, which I think would've been really great to do just for science concur. And then his dad was just like, No, we just gotta, We're done with it.We gotta De'Vannon: go. He didn't have the balls, He didn't really have a whole lot of nuts throughout the whole thing. Yeah, no, he had like a moment of nu tackiness and then he just, he just didn't wanna face the truth or whatever those results would've rendered . Good deal. Right. Demi: I think the most interesting part of it was like, it, it raised in my, in my mind the whole concept of nature versus nurture, as we know as gay people, like how much of us growing up gay, is it nature versus nurture?How much of it growing up as a, as a homicidal maniac, [00:17:00] cannibal, , how much of that is nature versus nurture? You know, you know, his mom was, was obviously was like nature right there, you know, he, that was like biological and then his dad kind of nurtured this part of him too. So like, it kind of had both ends of the spectrum.You know, It's, it's so interesting. De'Vannon: But I also wanna point out that of these 17 young men that were murdered, the majority of them were black and brown individuals. Correct? This was happening during, like, the middle of the last century, so there's a lot of racism, homophobia going on, you know, and that's, that's a theme throughout the end.I love Jackson Jackson's Tri Jesse, Reverend Jackson. Jackson is Triton appearance. Towards the end. Mm-hmm. as you mentioned though, this sort of thing does still happen today. And, and, and if I could like, make a hashtag, like and give respect to your podcast, hook up horror stories, I would say this show pretty much demonstrates the old hashtag ultimate of [00:18:00] horror story.Demi: I agree. . This is the ultimate, this is the thing that we've all been more warned about in like hookup cultures. Like, you know, don't go out on a date with anybody. You not the internet, otherwise you'll fucking be murdered. You know, or gotten your heart eating out. Literally the ultimate hookup horror story.De'Vannon: Yeah. So we're not joking in this, in this series. Y'all, Jeffrey liked to cut the boys up. I'm pretty sure he sauteed a liver, a human liver, you know, and, and he ate it like it was a goddamn Morton Steakhouse six, you know, five star restaurant. I mean, I guess, I mean, I'm laughing, I'm not laughing at it, but I don't have any other emotions to, to, I'm laughing at the how hysterical this whole thing is.Demi: I mean, if we don't laugh, we'd cry because it's so fucked up in [00:19:00] grotesque. But I think also talking about it openly and also discussing how we feel about it and using humor as a way to kind of cope. That's something I'm very familiar with. I'm, I make really, I have a very dark, twisted sense of humor. So this is definitely something I do on a regular basis.So, no, this is a safe space. I think. Anybody who's listening, I hope you guys feel the same way. This is a safe space. I think that , in addition to like the, in addition to all the, you know, horrible dismemberments and the cannibalism and keeping body parts in its fridge and freezer and stuff I think the most, one of the most crazy things about it was like he drilled their heads and then put acid in their brain in order to make living zombies.That was like his goal, because he didn't want people to leave him. He didn't want people to, like, he wanted people to be subservient and to be like, you know, [00:20:00] it's, it's so fucked up. But also it's kind of like, Oh God, you just wanted connection. You know?De'Vannon: I think that stemmed from his mother and his dad always leaving him. Yeah. Cause in the first like episodes we see his mom just got his little brother and screeched off because his mom and dad had a terrible, chaotic relationship. So people can get their heads fucked up just from the parents not getting along and shit like that.Right. This experience in my, in my own household. And that's why that was, he didn't want to be left. He didn't understand. Okay. They gotta go to work. They got something else to do. He wasn't trying to hear none of that. Oh, he heard he just wanted them to stay. He wanted them to stay, You know? But I mean, why do, when we go around and we do a whole lot of hooking up, then I think it's for the same reason, at least for me, you know, looking back when I was in and out of a different bed every night, you know, I just didn't [00:21:00] wanna be alone when I was a drug dealer, you know?And I would just give people narcotics or whatever. Just, I just didn't fucking wanna be by myself. Right. So how do we fix that? Okay. Demi: Yeah. I have no idea. , . I think it's, it's maybe being comfortable being alone has, has part to do with it. Being comfortable with being, but also not like being so alone that you go crazy.You know, reaching out to people when you need to and talking to friends, people who you trust, who are having people you trust in order to kind of alleviate some of that loneliness and, and to bring other perspectives into, into being. I wanted to bring out another serial killer that I, I found a lot of like kind of connection to Daher.And his name was Dennis Ni. He was a guy in the UK who also a gay serial killer. He didn't eat the body parts, but he did keep body parts around. [00:22:00] And his first kill was a young man. He met at a bar, brought him home, ended up just drinking and talking all night, having a great time sleeping together.I don't think they had sex, but they, they slept at the same bed, they cuddled, whatever. The next morning Dennis got up and he decided that he didn't want this boy to leave, like they all do. And he ended up strangling him while he was in bed. It's kind of that same motive where it was kind of like, you know, you just want someone to be around.I and then he also keeping of the body parts has something to do with that too. Yes. There's some sort of like trophy involved, but also kind of like more like, I have this memento of this person, you know, we still go connected to them. Yeah. So still, still still feel connected to them. Exactly. The only way Dennis Nelson got caught was just this kind of gross, but he, after a few years of like doing this and stuff and keeping body parts around the house [00:23:00] he decided to start getting rid of the stuff and he started putting it down the drainAnd anyone who's been the UK knows that plumbing in the UK sucks. And so he started putting body parts down the drain and. People in the building started finding brown water coming up and they were like drinking it and all this stuff, and they, they finally called, you know, the management, whatever. They found out that there's like these horrible body parts going up and they all tracked it back to Dennis.That's how we got caught. But I felt a lot of like kind of connection between Daher and ni. Like it was very kind like these guys had like the similar mos. They still had kind, were like fucked up in the head from the very beginning. There's still still a very troubling background too. It's just a pretty wild, both of these people had similar backgrounds and they wound up doing the same kind of thing.Was, De'Vannon: was this UK for Well, I'm, I'm, to some extent I'm pleased that eating people was a touch too far for him. He [00:24:00] just could not. Was he before Daher? During or after? Demi: Wondering 82. De'Vannon: Okay. I think Daher hit the news in like in the nineties. Mm-hmm. , they were doing currently. Demi: Okay. So this is 10 years before Daher, but actually around the same time. Cause I think Dahmer got started in 78, so Yeah. They were around the same time. De'Vannon: My lord Jesus. So, so I would wanted to issue like a word of warning, like in terms of like the, the danger of hooking up.Mm-hmm. . I just wanna like remind people that bad things do happen to people when they go behind closed doors with strangers. I get as really easy to go online and meet a fool and run off with them. I've done it and I think the sweet baby Jesus, that nothing bad ever happened, but I'm, I'm not arrogant to say that it, that it's not like it could have, It's not like I practiced discretion.I didn't tell anyone where I was going. [00:25:00] I didn't verify the person's name. I didn't verify that it was even their home that I was in. None of those things, I just trusted a stranger. . When I know like whenever people have like bad shit happen to them on hookups, usually they don't run around and tell it.Cuz everybody wants to make it seem like they have a super glorious sex life. Right. And what'll happen is when you're on these hookup apps, like that person who you always see in that square, suddenly you just won't see them anymore. Mm-hmm , that's kind of how that goes. So I'm just reminding y'all be careful.Cause in this show, some of the guys would look at a drink cuz Jeffrey would put used to put the fucking dope in the drink and they'd look at it and be like, this looks funny. And then they would just drink it anyway. Demi: Right. . So that also goes with just, just the naivete. People not knowing, people not thinking, you know, or just, eh, whatever, let's have fun, you know, whatever the case may be.Always . So I have, I have a friend who anytime that he goes somewhere, he always texts me to tell me where he is going. [00:26:00] I think it's great. It's wonderful to have a person that you, a little slot friend that you could just be like, Hey, I'm going to X this address , but you don't here, but by tomorrow I'm dead.You know, I got , I got bomber. So like, it, it's, it's very important to have those friends that you can talk to about this kind of stuff. And I think the whole purpose of like the stuff, what we do in our podcast and, and, and talking about this stuff openly and honestly, that this stuff does happen quite regularly to everyone and it is not doing anybody any good to just like, leave the stuff inside and to kind of like release that shame in a way to talk about it openly.To talk about, hey, this, here's how we can avoid this stuff. You know, what to look out for. You know, It's the same thing with, it's the same thing with true crime. It's like you, you. Wanna know more about what's happening to these people, because that helps us later on to like, kind of like be a little metos and be like, You know what, I, I don't, I know what's going on here.I need to [00:27:00] leave, You know, , De'Vannon: oh that makes me think of an Angela Langs very, who recently died rest in peace girl. She gave us murder she wrote, and the Venturian candidate , among Demi: other things, A little story by Angela Lansbury. I used to watch Bed ro, bed knobs and broomsticks when I was growing up, of course.But my grandma used to have a a bed, but in the room that I slept with that looked exactly like the bed from beds and broomstick. So every time I slept on that bed, I always felt like I was like riding through wherever with insulin landsbury, . De'Vannon: Well, you know what? She was a gay icon before. I realized that this such thing existed.Lame. I love the hair. I love the hair, the twist that she did. So, so you mentioned true crime. I know, I know you're considering this, like your true crime breakout, [00:28:00] so to speak. from this is, this is her breakout interview. So from the true crime aspect, like what would you like to say? What would you like to bring up? Like what's true crime to you? I mean, the whole damn thing is, but like, what, what do you, what do you wanna pick apart from it?Demi: Honestly, like I, I love true crime and I feel like the more we learn about this kind of darker aspect of humanity, the more we kind of. Bring this stuff back into light to talk about it openly, to share stories. And I, I think that has a lot to do with, like, I used to really suck at history in high school , but true crime has like kind of brought me more in line with, like, understanding history more.And I think the more that we understand history, the more we can we plan for the future. Mm-hmm. . So I think that is really kind of like coming full circle for me in a way to kinda like understand this from like that perspective, but also like to understand how, [00:29:00] how victims work and how like the police are so fucked up and, and how humans can just not always get things right.You know, we're, we're, we're full of problems, we're full of issues. We all make, we all make mistakes. We all make shit an shit decisions, you know, De'Vannon: we do. And sometimes it's because we. Or we are full of ourselves. You know, we get blindsided by our own desires, ambitions, and stuff like that. And think a little less about the other person than probably we.I don't like to use the word should very often, but in this case I'll say than we should I call for more compassion towards other people in this earth. I just wanna say that I'm super upset and mad and like bitter in my soul that I had [00:30:00] to wait till episode two for Evan Peters to take his fucking clothes off.I'm getting spoiled by American Horror stories. Like his s is always on his like literal bare s is always on the screen, but we got a little, almost kind of slight side dick or top. Two on this one. I was just saying girling, like,Demi: so you'd be, you'd be sending dahmer like letters in the mail, wouldn't you? De'Vannon: in exchange for nudes. Fuck it. Demi: Think what I got most excited for was Sean Brown, who was playing Tracy Edwards, who's the guy in the first episode who, who did the little sexy dance in order to escape from daher. I think that was brilliant.I think that was like a fantastic dramatization of what might have happened. I'm not sure if that actually happened, but holy shit. That was like in insane. That was, that was an [00:31:00] insane escape. I'm so happy that he got out and then he finally got caught. Props to Sean Brown for playing that He is completely me worthy.De'Vannon: they're coming. Oh, I, I made one. Did you see it? ? Yeah. . So, so Sean, if you're listening, you know, Demi's address is available and you, I, he is in Los Angeles, a, you know, Demi's in Los Angeles. So I think you should go do that dance for him. And so I love how, So episode one actually shows, like, like to me is saying, you know, this character escaping, running down the street, getting the police coming back, and Jeff Dahmers actually getting arrested.Mm-hmm. . And so the series actually kind of, it's like flash backy and then the trial is kind of precipitating and starting to happen throughout. And I thought that was very nicely done, right? [00:32:00] So I wanna talk about his parents. I wanna talk about his parents. I ain't hit a judge because, you know, I done done all kind of drugs.I never was a pill popper. I just sold it. No judgment though. So this, so y'all, when when, when Jeffrey's mom was pregnant with him, she was on like, I can't remember, 26, 26 pills a day. Okay. You know, then, you know, so there's speculation that perhaps that fucked him up because, you know, they never thought about it before.Because we hear about crack babies. I don't mean that derogatory, but that's the term people will recognize. Or people, you know, mother's drinking. You know, you can't buy a bottle of wine back of the label for whatever fucking reason in this country. We have to tell, we have to put it in print. If you're pregnant, you shouldn't have this bottle of wine bitch.And so like, but it never occurred to me, you know, somebody getting a legal prescription from their doctors could do the same sort of [00:33:00] damage with pills. Mm-hmm. . So that was like super eye opening for me. Demi: And it was also the, it was like the sixties. So I mean, it was a completely different time for pharmaceuticals.Like people were just like, Yeah, take this methadone, take this fucking shit, take whatever antipsychotic that, you know, cuz who cares? Cause we're all just making money off of it anyways. We're still to this day is same problem. We're just prescribing opiates to people that don't really need it because we're making money doing it.So it's the same kind of kind of thing the pharmaceutical company is like, is or the pharmaceutical biz is fucked up. But it just goes to show that like, yes, like this stuff does in a large quantity is due serious damage to us, to our bodies and to the bodies that might be living inside of us. It's, it's insane, but it was a different time.It was like the sixties, completely different time. So you [00:34:00] had a, They still thought, they still thought, they still thought smoking was healthy back then. You know, , De'Vannon: I somehow feel like this country hasn't come that long of a way sometimes we seem so damn primitive with the way we treat each other and the, some of the things people say and do.So this, you know, so we had this mom with the pills, his dad harbored desires, you know, in the, in the show with his dad confessed towards the end. You know what? I really wanted to murder people and I would imagine having done it, but I didn't say anything. And basically the two of them helped to produce this serial killer.And I was thinking, you know, people don't want, you know, queer folk to have kids and everything because they're afraid we're gonna ruin them and turn them in and ruin the moral fabric. But you know, we just got, you know, really our rights to really have a family really not that long ago. So the world's serial killers and murders and, you know, all of these notorious people came from heterosexual unions.I just really wanted to point that out.[00:35:00]Demi: right? That's not an argument. Cause obviously like people procreate and so heterosexuals procreate. Obviously you guys are also doing your part to create people of Daher status. You know, it's not, the argument is invalid, you know, when it comes De'Vannon: to that. Right? So I love all the, you know, the things like that, that this series brought out.You mentioned several times how shitty the cops were. Mm-hmm. , Let's get more granular with that. Now, Jeffrey was already convicted sex offender on parole. Right. I think he murdered the damn 14 year old. Mm-hmm. . But he was a brother. Yeah. Right. And so, so Niecy, Nash's character, Linda believe it was, was complaining.But, you know, she's black. Mm-hmm. , it's, you know, gay things happening. So the cops are showing up like, so this is a boyfriend, boyfriend thing, Right. We don't wanna Demi: get involved. There's De'Vannon: aids, you know. Yeah. We might catch it from like, walking in your [00:36:00] apartment and so and so and so. So, no, they took a very hands off approach to this.Jeffrey was white, N's character was black, and then the little boy was Asian. And so they, they just, they just believed the white boy. And so and then Niecy, you know, just, just kept calling and calling and calling, you know, at some point N'S character. She, she just was like, I, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna say what, what's your favorite line that, that N's character said?Demi: I'll eat it later.when Daher comes into her apartment, which I don't know why the fuck she would let him into her apartment. He brought a sandwich into the apartment with him and he gives it to her and he tells her Eat it. And she goes, I'm not eating that . And he goes, Eat it. And she goes, I'll eat it later. . [00:37:00]That was just so brilliant and just like so well done.It's so like powerful. Just like go right back at him with that aggression. Like, Oh my God, that was so great. De'Vannon: You know? Yeah. She didn't back down. She told him, I'm not afraid of you. Mm-hmm. , she had fear cuz the moment he left her apartment and closed the Doche gas and she broke down. But So Niecy nasty, Niecy nasty character.Lives right next door to Daher and Dahmers putting shit in people's food. To drug them. And so he had made a sandwich probably out of people in dope. I'm sure it was people Yeah, exactly. And thought she was going to eat it, and so and so. No, she wasn't having any of that. And I thought she was, I thought she, I thought her character was like probably the strongest next to, you know, to the reverend.I thought her character was probably the strongest, you know? Yeah. You know, like in, in internally. Yeah. Yeah. So my favorite line from her is [00:38:00] when at some point she told the cops, you know, she's like, Y'all came, but it's too late now. Demi: It's too De'Vannon: late. You got 17 dead people. I called y'all how many times . She, she read those cops for absolute bills.Yeah. But the fucked up part, the cops were only suspended from duty with pay. The two cops that were on that circuit, on that beat, you know, handling this, they were only suspended. With pay. And then they got reinstated and then they gave them rewards for like top of the fucking year. Demi: I know. And I, I did, I did write down one of their lines that they said when they were talking to their police chief, they sold their police Chief, You can't fire us.Trust me, we will be here long after you. Which is just like, it's so threatening to say that to your boss, first of all. And so just gross, Just gross humanity. And just that, that abuse of power is so insane. And I, it's [00:39:00] still like that police could not be held accountable, period. There's nothing to hold them accountable.De'Vannon: I feel like there's. Accountability is starting to trickle up. But what, what he was, what those two cops told him was true. Whatever the shit hits the fan, it's the police chief or somebody in a high position to go right. And they, they're not wrong about that. And they went, ran into the police union and, you know, hid behind them.I'm so, I had applied to become a cop with the Houston Police Department at one point before, became a drug dealer. I am, yeah. I'm so happy I became a drug dealer instead. Because there is more honor and credibility in pushing dope in all kinds of methamphetamine and narcotics. Than being a fucking police officer.Demi: I agree. , there's these so there's and Canadian native people there's a, a story that I, I'm gonna butcher this completely, but [00:40:00] there was these stories that were called like like Midnight, Midnight Drive or something like that. I'm gonna get that wrong. But anyways, these police officers would, would take up these, these Canadian native people, drive them out into like the middle of nowhere, and then have them like, take off their shoes and everything and like, have them walk back into town and they would never find the bodies and stuff.And they were these, you know, it, it, it's crazy. People didn't find out that they were doing this to, to these native people for years. When they finally did, nobody was held accountable, really. Like the police chief was the one that, that kind of like left. And even the Wikipedia page was changed from someone in the police department.They that. And it's like no one, you can pinpoint which desk it came from. Why did you not even think to do that? You know, they just didn't want to. There's nothing to like keep that because it would make them look bad essentially. And that's, [00:41:00] it sucks. It's a reality of the situation. De'Vannon: But whatever it's worth, I, I, from, from my spirituality, I believe that God is not mocked in whatever they, so they will reap as a human.I don't believe is for me to see this necessarily play out. I'm not j I'm not, and I'm just saying like, that's the piece that I make with it, right? That's my own version of that. And so I hope other people don't become bitter, you know, looking at, you know, police to think police do, and because the bitterness isn't going to help you.You know, it's very easy to watch a series like this or to turn on the news today. And it doesn't get angry. The anger is so valid, but I just hope people don't internalize it, you know? So I just wanna be Demi: proactive, you know, volunteer, you know, be, be active in, you know, [00:42:00] protesting you know, be, be vigilant and, you know, really call out these things when you see it.It's, it's, it's shocking. It's, it's crazy, but at the same time, it's not all that surprising to see that, Yeah, this stuff still happens.De'Vannon: I don't know if I, Maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should. Okay. I guess I will, since I said it that much. So, , so when, so there's a scene in here where Jeffrey, Jeffrey has a thing for mannequins and everything like that.Oh God. And so he goes into the store, kinda buys something, sneaks into the dressing room. And hangs out once they close. And then once the security guard leaves and they turn the lights off, he dashes out of the dressing room, Nas the mannequin, and of course is a nice chisel, male mannequin, all the ad right.Pulled everything going on. I have to confess, I've, you know, notice the, [00:43:00] the, the honks of the mannequins in the window. You know, that , that's why they make 'em that way. But I never was gonna take one home. So Jeffrey liked to get these mannequins and and. While I'm watching this, I'm having flashbacks from like Pose, which have absolutely nothing to do with this.Pose was super great. Also a whole nother, but again, another Ryan Murphy show, , another Ryan Murphy show, and also the first fucking episode of Pose, Season one, episode one. When a lecture in the House of Abundance go into the store, the Macy's or whatever they stay in for. Clothes hide everywhere. Come. They undressed the mannequin.Oh yeah. Clothes. They take the clothes and leave the mannequins. But I was, I don't know, it just reminded me of that. I was so happy to see one of those characters from Pose appear later on in the, in the series though, I think, I don't know, maybe his name was Danny and Pose one of the dancer guys. He was the dark chocolate one.Oh, right, right. Dos . [00:44:00]Demi: So, I mean, Ryan Murphy does like to work with the same actors, and I, that's, I think that's why he's taking a liking to Evan Peters, because Evan Peters is a great actor and he did such an amazing job with, with this role. As far as the mannequin goes, I have a confession. De'Vannon: No mannequin is safe.No mannequin is safe. Demi: Not mannequin. No, but I was, I was the only child. I, I didn't really have, I was, I was, you know, a little older than some of the kids on the block. So I was a little lonely at times. I kind of wished I had a brother or a friend around and I didn't really have one. I, I did occasionally build a friend.Out of pillows and my own clothes, and keep 'em on my De'Vannon: bed.Demi: It's a very weird thing that I did as a kid. My mom never batted an eye at this though. , It was very strange. I would give them [00:45:00] names. I would just, you know, this was just like, this is my friend that I've built. And so I kind of related to Daher in that, in that aspect of just like, Oh my God, this is so weird to keep this, this thing I, this, this form in my bed.You know? I never told that to another person, by the way. So everybody knows all this weird secret about De'Vannon: me, . Okay. I can confess something that I did, and I don't judge you for that, but you saying that reminds me of when I was in the Air Force and I left home when I was 17 and I could not relate with people coming from the country, coming from the Pentecostal background and, and I didn't know how to make friends and I didn't know.I got, I had this, I got this orange monkey. He was like a, a bright orange, You might call him like a curious Georgie thing, but he was like neon orange. And I would take him places with me, and now I'm 17, 18, you know, I have a car. I'm not really grown, but I'm older. And I, I would strap him into the front seat and put like [00:46:00] on him and drive him around because I couldn't find a fucking friend.You know, there was no, there was no grinder, there was none of that. You couldn't go online and find a friend. You had to go out and physically meet people. And I was 17. I wasn't old enough to go to any bars or anything. I was fucked, you know? And I wasn't in college, I was in, I was in a grown man's world in the military.I do not recommend going to the military at 17. So, no. Yeah, we built person. I went to toys us and bought mine. Fuck it. You know, , we all had our mixture of friends. Yeah. Demi: And, and you know, it's, It's not all that shocking, you know, it's, it is shocking in the context of like Daher, but at the same time, it's not all that shocking for people to just be lonely.De'Vannon: Right. And, and he was lonely. Lone did, Jeffrey was lonely cuz his parents not only walked away from him, but they didn't really teach him, you know they didn't really [00:47:00] teach him. Like, I don't feel like my parents taught me about sex, about life. You know, Jeffrey did not understand what it meant to be a homosexual.You know, when cops would show up, he would be like, we're doing gay things, you know porn, you know, to him it's like something, Homosexuality is something that you do. It's an action rather than who you are. Right? So, So, you know, the, he was he in that, in that aspect, I'll say the poor thing was misguided.I feel like so many of us gays are, you know, I wish someone would say, Hey, here's how you be in this world. You know,I wanna talk about post traumatic stress of disorder, . Okay. Like you said, gal NE's character was, is, was, is an alga amalgamation check of of all the people in the building. So by the end of the series, y'all the [00:48:00] people in this building where this boy then chopped up and cooked and filet and sauteed.These people just cannot. Okay? They have to go sleep downstairs in the hall because everybody's having nightmares. And flashbacks thinking, Jeffrey's coming for them, hearing the same sounds and shit. This is just like a veteran coming back from war. Right. Okay. People who barely escaped from him are having flashbacks.These people's families are getting harassed by the fucking police and shit. What? What? The PTSD as something that shocked me and I had never considered before. Demi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the victims aren't the only victims in this. It's the people that actually were in that building. It's the people who had to find the bodies who, you know, the people who actually working the crime scene and stuff.The people who were just the neighbors, you know, the people who lived in that, in that neighborhood. Those are all victims. Those are people that knew all this stuff was happening. [00:49:00] I think what the city Des decided was the right thing to do was just to knock down the building completely and erase it, which I think is the wrong thing to do.And I think Glenda was doing the right thing by fighting for this park in this plaque to commemorate the names of the victims of people. And I think that's a really important thing. And at the very end of the show you, you realize that it's still not there. So I think it's really, I think it'll bring up an interesting commentary to this, especially just because of this year and the kind of last couple years that we've been having in order to really do some good in this world, is to bring light onto things that were once dark, rather than just De'Vannon: make them disappear.That's like whitewashing it in a way. Like, you know, you know, I love, I love me, some white dick and all of that, but. White people can do things like try to just make problems disappear and shit. Mm-hmm. like what we see demonstrating here, [00:50:00] because historically white people have held at the power, you know, in this country, they've had the power to do it.Control the narrative, rewrite history, the where the fuck you wanna do, bad shit happen over there. We'll call it Murder House from American Horror Story couldn't get any worse. You know, bad shit happened. We'll just tear it down and we'll just act alike, you know, we'll just move on now. But like, like, like the reverend Jesse Jesse Jackson said in there, you know, we're not gonna let you just give us peaceful words like healing and hope, and everything's gonna be okay, which is another way of saying, let's just forget about it.Right? Demi: That's not how you deal with, with trauma. , you know, actually processing those emotions learning to stand in it and not be affected by it. Learning how to kind of move within it rather than just forget about it. Cuz as we all know, and we just pushed into the back of our minds, they always have a nice, lovely way of coming right back up into weird, do weird things to our psyche, [00:51:00] you know?So yeah, all those people, I'm sure I, I, I hope have gotten help through the years. But I still think that there still needs more to be done culturally, especially when it comes to like, people who are victims, who are horrible victims such as this. De'Vannon: And like, and, and you mentioned, I mean, all traumas like that.I mean, you said it best. I'm just gonna say trauma goes in, is he has to come back out. It won't just dissipate. And you mentioned earlier about, you know, you asked me like, would I be one of the ones writing letters to, to Jeff in the mail since I think he has a nice ass and d print. So in the series, y'all, this, this part grossed me out and I hope I was gross top in the nonjudgmental way because I don't like to judge anyone for anything.Okay. Jeff had a, had a, had, has a following. They started making Halloween costumes and shit. There was a comic, his [00:52:00] dad wrote a book. People started writing him letter, sending him money. It's kind of Trumpy . Demi: Oh. He was trying to profit off of what happened and like, being the father of the killer, you know, I think that's so messed up.And I think it was right for the victims, for the families of the victims to pursue that in court. And did, did they win? I, I believe they did Eventually. They, they want, they lost the first time, but they did. And yeah, that money should go to the victims. It should not go to the fucking dude. Like dad.That's insane. Like, my god, De'Vannon: not only, no, but hell nah. I couldn't believe he had the balls to do that. Like, I could have seen if he wrote it for cathartic healing reasons, maybe shared it with the family or whoever Demi: requested Yeah. Set up for like non-profit or something. Like just, Yeah, like, just don't, That's it's so selfish and it's very Trumpy for sure.De'Vannon: Yeah. They're in their [00:53:00] toasting margaritas, you know, and shit over the, over the book deal , you know, everything like that with no concern for people. So then Jeff had copycats people, Sorry, do mimic him and everything like that. And it. Makes me very concerned for the, for the mental state of the world.Because as old as this crime is, it's not like mental health. I don't feel like it's improved. Right. Treatment has gotten better, but people are still like, not all there . Right. Not as good as they could be. Demi: Completely. Do we have any final De'Vannon: thoughts? I do. I have, I, the, the last two things that I would like to bring up was the way the whole unforgiveness, bitterness thing that, that went from DC Nas character.Mm-hmm. , the guy who murdered him in jail, who felt like he was a right to hand of God and everything like that. And then Jeffrey's baptism and [00:54:00] repentance before that. Right. Do you think the repentance is real? For, for me. Like I was saying earlier, I, I don't want people to get into this space of thinking like we have space to judge anyone.I don't care how terrible it is. Right? It's like if somebody's like a monk, you know, in certain religions they feel like all life is sacred. So they would never, like say, step on a roach, Okay, we'll step on a roach, kill a spider in a fucking heartbeat. Cuz we view it as a threat or just gross or whatever.But if somebody goes to murder an elephant for their ivory, you know, then we're like, Oh no. How could you, I'm not justifying the murder of the elephants, but I'm saying like, if we get judgey, that monk could judge you for stepping on the roach. So I want people to be careful how they tread, because these people in jail, especially the guy that killed him, just couldn't, He was so offended by what he had done.He was like, I did bad shit, but it wasn't as bad as yours, so I'm running to kill you now. Mm-hmm.[00:55:00]Demi: obviously that guy had some mental problems and he became obsessed with this thing and, and obviously he had a very. Active vendetta against Dahmer for whatever reason. For many reasons I'm sure. But I think when it comes to forgiveness, I think it's important to forgive if not only for the sake of others, but for the sake of ourselves.When I mean, you don't have to forgive a person, you don't have to forget either. But I think in order for us to kinda like move on from like trauma like this, it is kind of important to be like, just forgive the situation. You know, just to kind of like allow some release of some way. You don't have to forgive the person, but just forgive the situation for what happened.And I think that's one way to do it. Perhaps the best way, I don't know, whatever works for you, like, whatever, it's [00:56:00] through religion, finding forgiveness through that, which I'm not sure if that was fully , I'm sure if that was fully authentic of, of Doward to kind of go through that. At the end, maybe he finally felt bad for the situation cuz I mean he was very aware, he was very self-aware of what was going on.He was just like, I, I just don't know how to control this. And, but maybe that was a way for him to kind of like, move through it. But at the same time, he also had some narcissistic tendencies at the very, when he started getting fan mail and stuff, he started getting a big head, you know, . Cause I, I really don't know where to place that, but I think in, for forgiveness to really happen, some sort of like forgiveness within needs to happen first.De'Vannon: True. I feel like if he meant his repentance that he, he had the priest commander baptize him and everything, I think just like Jesus did on the cross, and I think Jesus had a murder and a thief up there with him. Yeah. You know, Jesus said that He'll forgive you for anything with the exception of Blast Fing the [00:57:00] Holy Ghost, which is like a, something that I don't think most of us even know how to do, to be quite honest.But and a lot of people might not care Demi: to die. How do we do that? ? Can you tell us step by stepDe'Vannon: They create Little Holy Ghosts and Blast femurs. researched it. I've been there, researched it because I was like, How do you even, I think it has something to do with a very deep and like, kind of like rejection of, of, of God on like, like a, on like a super, super, super, super, super deep. Level that it's, it's very hard to explain and I, and I don't really, I I can't explain it to you cuz even though I've read it, I'm like, okay, I'm reading this and I was trying to read this, trying to understand that the original culture of the Middle East where this came from, and I'm all like, I don't know, this is like a deep, deep, deep level of [00:58:00] disrespect.And if, if you, if you're this, this adverse towards, towards the Holy Ghost, you would probably know. And this is beyond like, well I'm undecided on God or I don't know if I'm gonna believe in him. This is like this is like a Rast rant thing and I cannot explain it because I don't know how to blast feed the Holy Ghost.And after reading it, I just know, okay, I ain't done that and I never will because that's like really far out. Right? You do. So, so so I would just say people watch the show. I don't know if this may be cathartic for people who, whose family members have been murdered on any level to watch other people go through it.I think that there's some healing to be found in it. So watch it the seat and see what you can get out of it. Demi: I would say or not, if you're not comfortable with that kind of stuff, don't, because it's, it's not, it's not for everyone [00:59:00] and I think it might, obviously it brought up a lot of conversation, especially online about victims and all that stuff.If you're not comfortable in that, it might not be good for you to watch. On the other hand, those who aren't probably not that sensitive to it or perhaps have done some sort of, you know, work in, in this, in that kind of realm to be sure you're able to like handle the kind of things, which I thought I was very.Open to this type of stuff. I was like, really gung ho The moment I was like, Yeah, let's watch Daher. Everyone's talking about it, let's do it. That first episode had me like, Oh my God, I can't, I gotta wait. I gotta wait a day. , you know, I gotta watch a comedy after this. I gotta watch it stand up or something.Cause I, I don't think it's for everyone, but I think it's for a specific type of person. I think it, there is some sort of healing in it as well. But also it's a lot of like more learning from, in my opinion. [01:00:00]De'Vannon: Well, if anyone needs a friend or to talk to us about anything that you may come across. We're not mental health professionals, but we do.We are life professionals and we have lived through some experiences. My website is Sex Drugs in jesus.com, and that's where you can reach me. All my information is there, video1836075140: baby. Demi: And mine's dimitri wild.com. But before we let you go, shall we do a little round of red flags? De'Vannon: Yes. Demi: All right. All right. Number one red flag.They keep an mysterious oil drum in their bedroom.De'Vannon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he did, he did have a, a red or an oil drum in his bedroom, , and we know enough to know, well, there are the body's in there, but , you know, then they didn't have so much television and, you know, the sharing of knowledge. But yeah, there was [01:01:00] that Demi: red flag for sure. Their apartments smelled like dead animals.De'Vannon: That was a red flag, which Jeffrey always explained the way is rotten meat in the refrigerator. , Demi: they have a fish De'Vannon: tank,but most people haven't smelled a dead decaying corpse. So most people have a frame of reference. But this is not just like, You, you just ran or just had one of those days where you're feeling not so fresh this year?Demi: Wait, you're still talking about the dead animals? . De'Vannon: This is beyond that. So yeah, beyond that it was Thank a Dan. Demi: Dan. Exactly. They have a fish tank.De'Vannon: Well, I suppose I don't see so much fishes around anymore. I don't with a fish tank anymore, but I don't think that that would be a red flag unless all the fish are dead. Which I [01:02:00]think a couple of his were, Yeah, Demi: beta. The beta fish that fight.How about if they live with their grandmother? Red flag? De'Vannon: Depends on the nature of it. You know, if he owns the house. And he's, and he's Sha letting Granny Shack with him then? No. But at that age, and it doesn't have to be, If somebody's going through hard times, I would not judge them for that. But when Granny's coming down, throwing shade and reading Jeffrey for a filth and like clearly, okay, run bitch granny don't like, can, cannot deal with her own grandchild.Why should you And Granny called too. Granny was strong too. Was strong, you know, She was like, Hell no, I'm not leaving, bitch, this is my house.Demi: Last one, they order liver and onions at [01:03:00] dinner.De'Vannon: Growing up in the south we had liver and onions all the time, but it was cow liver. That tip my knowledge, not peopleDemi: I don't think I'd, I don't think I'd like anyone who ordered liver at dinner. Like it would be like weird. It's just gross. De'Vannon: Well, out there in California, y'all don't have southern cuisines, so you don't have like grit, You don't have that. Yeah. Greens and, you know, and shit like that. Maybe if you go down to Roscoe's Chicken and waffles, you might find something close to that.But other than that, you know, something, half the shit we eat down here, you'd probably be like a red flag. Oh Lord, a pig. Lift a pig, lift a pigs foot. Oh hell no. I'm not about to get cut up in this motherfucker. I'm out. . Demi: Yeah, I mean I'm, I definitely grew up in Southern California, so I grew up on like, you know, chicken in pork, but like, that's about as far weird as I got, you know, [01:04:00] liver, not so much.De'Vannon: But they say it's super good for you. It tasted lean. I can't, I don't know that anybody ever became morbidly obese off of eating liver out of all the things that we ate that probably came around in the, like a lower 10%. It's not like I saw it a whole hell of a lot. And I haven't seen it in years, you know, now.But after this show here, maybe people will stop using, eating it all together. Right. Demi: Well that's all the red flags I have. , I guess. Thanks for everyone for tuning in. This has really been really fun. Thanks to Van for doing this with me, This little collab that we got going on. De'Vannon: Thank you. Go for agreeing to come on and for and, and for pushing me to, you know, to get it.I was trying to like, You know, I was like, I can be such a procrastinator, but you know, when Dimi makes up her mind, y is going get done. And I Absolut love [01:05:00] it. She was like, Yes, let's do this shit now. And I was like, Oh, Demi: like what are you doing November? I'm like this is Halloween, girl. This is Halloween.Well again, thank you for doing this with us. Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye. I.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be right.