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How are we preparing the next generation of energy professionals? Kieran Graham, student of the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University, is set to embark on his career in the energy sector. Kieran joins thinkenergy to chat about his studies, from thermodynamics to power generation, regulatory to economic aspects, and what's on the horizon for the industry and his future. Listen in for a fresh perspective on the future of energy with a next-gen energy professional. Related links: Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program, Carleton University: https://admissions.carleton.ca/programs/sustainable-and-renewable-energy-engineering/ APEX Lab, Carleton University: https://carleton.ca/apex/ Kieran Graham on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kierangraham1/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/  - Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. We know that we are already in this period of change that we call the energy transition, but this is not a short term thing. We will be in this period of change for years and likely decades to come. And that means that the next generation of energy professionals, so engineers, policy experts, customer focused, people, finance and so on and so on, they might spend their entire careers working on this. So I thought it would be interesting to check in with someone who's just about to enter the workforce to find out how we're preparing that next generation to dive head first into this challenge and hopefully bring innovative and exciting solutions to the table. This is a career and society defining challenge. This is something that we'll be focusing on for many, many years to come. So I really wanted to understand what is that next generation learning. Now I'm sure you'd all agree that what you learn in your formal schooling is only one small part of the knowledge base and skill set that is important for contributing in a meaningful way. I know that the things I became really excited about and passionate about as I was getting through my engineering degree really helped set my course and have led me to where I am today, and definitely was not the course I thought I was on when I started engineering school. And for the record, these things that I became really passionate exciting about weren't, you know, the fluid dynamics and soil mechanics and thermodynamics and all these courses I was taking. It was the concepts and the way of thinking and the things I became passionate about. So all that being said, I'm pretty excited today to talk to my guests about what he has been learning and how he thinks that's setting him up for a career focused on energy. Kieran Graham is in his final year of his degree at Carleton University here in Ottawa, and he's in the sustainable and renewable energy engineering program. I love the fact that we have a whole focus program on clean and renewable energy, that's fantastic. Kieran is the president of the Sustainable and Renewable Engineering Society, and he helps organize academic social and networking events for students in that program and others that are interested in sustainable and renewable energy. He has worked with the apex lab at Carleton, doing research on various carbon capture technologies, and he was also the organizer, or one of the organizers, for the 2026 Ontario Engineering Competition. Kieran Graham, welcome to the show.   Kieran Graham  02:48 Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited.   Trevor Freeman  02:50 So Kieran, let's start with a little bit of background on your program at University. So you're in the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University. Tell us a little bit about what that program is and what you focus on.   Kieran Graham  03:03 Yeah, so I will admit it's a little confusing at first, like Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering, the long name, and then we have two streams. So one's called Smart Technologies for Power Generation Distribution, the other one's about efficient energy conversion. So the easiest way to actually differentiate these two is electrical and mechanical. So smart technologies is electrical efficient conversion is a more mechanical. So like, if you have know anything about engineering disciplines, it's electrical and mechanical.   Trevor Freeman  03:35 Gotcha   Kieran Graham  03:36 Also, by the way, SREE is short form for sustainable renewable energy engineering, just to save us some fumbling over our words, in the future, perfect.   Trevor Freeman  03:45 This is a very acronym heavy podcast at time, so I appreciate you spelling that out for us. So when we when we hear SREE, you're talking about the program, gotcha. So give us an idea of, like, what's the focus of the program more broadly?   Kieran Graham  03:58 Yeah, so like, I'm in the electrical stream. So I take a lot of different courses at the beginning, ranging from fluid mechanics, and we take electrical courses like circuits and signals and just Electronics One. But then we also later take courses that are more SREE specific, that are more focused on learning how we are using thermodynamics to then put it through as a turbine and then create that energy. And then, how is it work, specifically with a nuclear power plant, or we even learn a little bit about natural gas, but just for context. And then, how does that differ from generating electricity with wind in a wind turbine. It's pretty similar, but like, how where's the difference? And like, how do we apply that in different scenarios?   Trevor Freeman  04:48 Got you so if I could say that back to you. You know, when I was in energy or engineering school, I learned a lot about those fundamentals. I learned, we know, we did thermodynamics, we did all that kind. Of stuff we just mentioned, but the application to power generation, and the renewable aspect of it, the sustainability side, that was all stuff I learned later in my career. You're building that into your programs. Kind of built that into what you're learning. So you're learning the more traditional engineering side of things, the thermodynamics and how this stuff works, but in the context of power generation, I assume, you know, like application of power generation, like how the grid works, things like that.   Kieran Graham  05:28 Yeah, exactly. So we take a little bits of courses that other programs will take, and then I got, first we're taking those same courses, and then we take other courses that are really specific, and we apply them to sustainable and renewable energy engineering. The other thing is, later in our degree, we also apply things on a more higher level, like energy is kind of like a high level topic. There's so many things that are happening and there's a lot of regulatory and economic aspects to it. So we have to look at, like, the energy market and like, yes, like nuclear fusion is like a great option if it works and if it's economically viable. And you know, nuclear has its own regulatory aspect, so we have that coverage of information and knowledge later in the years.   Trevor Freeman  06:17 Gotcha so. And for our listeners out there who are not kind of engineering nerds like Kieran and I. One of the things how I describe engineering more broadly is that it's sort of a systems thinking approach to things. So understanding, what are my inputs? What's the result of those inputs? What does that mean for the output? What are the feedback loops? And so what I'm hearing you say, Kieran, is that it's bringing that into the energy sector, the energy industry, which is fantastic, like, really exciting to hear that this is, this is what you're learning, and this is what the next sort of generation of engineers is being taught right now. How did you end up in this program? What drew you to this particular field of engineering?   Kieran Graham  07:01 Yeah, so it's a little complicated, because when I applied to university, I knew I wanted to stay in Ottawa, and my parents both went to Carleton. My grandpa worked at Carleton like when it was first established, so I had deep roots there. And in my mind, Carleton is a superior University in Ottawa. I know that's controversial, but, you know, it's okay. But anyways, I applied to three different engineerings at Carleton, and my first choice was actually aerospace engineering, because in high school, it was kind of like a this was the prestige of making aerospace engineering. And I actually got in and my first year I was in aerospace engineering, but at Carleton, first year, engineering is all general. So after first year, I decided that my goals, and I don't want to talk down to my aerospace colleagues, but my morals and my aspirations were more set towards a sustainable and renewable energy engineering focus. So sustainable renewable energy engineering was my second choice going into Carleton, so it's a pretty easy switch in second year, but from my childhood, I had an aunt who worked for Greenpeace Canada and also just learning about sustainability in my house and at school, this just seemed like a natural, good choice.   Trevor Freeman  08:28 My journey, and we won't get into the details of my journey, but it echoes that a lot of kind of having an idea going into engineering school and at some point, realizing that maybe this doesn't line up with my values, or what I want to do, the impact that I want to have. And that kind of gets into my next question of, you know, generally, the engineering profession is built around having an impact, a positive impact on society, on people, and using a, like I said, systems thinking approach to that. That's sort of the bar that we try and live up to. So, you know, you talked about wanting to have an impact. What does that impact me? Or what is having a positive impact mean for you, and how do you see yourself contributing as you're nearing the end of your education, at least formal education side of your undergrad?   Kieran Graham  09:14 Yeah, so I actually just took my engineering professional practices course, which I learned about the code of ethics and how the engineers duty is paramount to serving the public. And I think that actually really resonated with me as much as you know, the course is a lot of just talking about regulatory stuff, it actually was refreshing and good to hear that that's like the regulatory view on what engineering should be, because my personal goals are very much to have a positive and strong impact on society, and specifically like my local community. You know, my family's deeply rooted in Ottawa, so I want to have a good, positive impact. Impact on Ottawa. So I guess when I switched from aerospace to sustainable energy, I decided that, like, there's a climate crisis right now, and I just saw the opportunity to create a large positive impact within engineering, which I was really enjoying and helped solve those problems of having that net zero or clean energy solution, which was being so, like, stressed upon within, like, my whole life,   Trevor Freeman  10:31 That's great, yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely, in my opinion, and I think this has been echoed a lot on this podcast, is, you know, the energy transition, the climate crisis, and sort of our reaction to that is definitely, the defining challenge of our of our time right now, and certainly, certainly your career, probably moving forward in this field. So looking at the energy transition, what skills or knowledge do you think you've developed throughout the last couple of years in your undergrad that have prepared you to contribute to this. You know, rapidly changing industry that the electricity sector, the energy sector of today is not the same as it was five years ago, and it won't be the same in five years. So coming into it at this point, what do you think you're bringing to the table that's going to help contribute to that?   Kieran Graham  11:23 Yeah. So, I mean, it's the whole point of the program. And you know, people running, I'll shout out Ahmed Abdullah, a professor who's really been heading the SREE  program. And so the, really, the big goal of SREE is like to be multidisciplinary, and being able to approach all the different aspects of this climate crisis and energy transition. You need to be able to understand how, like, I said, like the mechanical thermodynamics and fluid dynamics work, but also understand how a electric generator works, and then how transmission works, and need to understand, like, what's the point of creating solar in the desert, if you have to then transfer it all the way to, I don't know, somewhere in Europe, or something like, those are the large scale aspects that you need to be able to understand. The other thing that's also really important is just having the knowledge of understanding how like load profiles work and how data analysis and understanding like this is what a good load profile looks like. This is a problem like the duck curve or problems like this, like that, we as three engineers really understand, like how these different problems are created, and then how we can fix them and where they're being affected, like the duck curve in California, and like in Canada, we have a winter peaking system. Like all these problems are different, different aspects that we are very knowledgeable on and already have a base understanding of. And I think that's what's really important and helpful going into this industry.   Trevor Freeman  13:04 Yeah, that's great. Has there been a time during your program, during your undergrad, or a project that you've worked on that has really kind of changed the way you view energy or the electricity grid, or open your eyes to something that you weren't aware of before, really kind of, yeah, drove your passion for it?   Kieran Graham  13:27 Yeah, so, you know, there's been many problems and projects that I've had throughout my degree, and you know, the view and impact on my motivation has been very hopeful and very doubtful in equal amounts. But I would say maybe more helpful hopeful in the in the future, just because sometimes in school, things get a little stressful and blow up in proportion. But I'd say my biggest hopeful, I guess, and changing my my view of things would be my capstone project. So the capstone project that I'm working on currently is focusing on a net zero 2050 Ottawa. And how are we going to prepare for that? How are we going to handle the generation for that? How are we going to get energy places? How are we going to handle the winter peaks of electrifying, heating. How are we going to deal with EVs? It's a never ending puzzle slash scavenger hunt of finding data and how do things work together? How do we piece it together? Yeah, it's been a great challenge, but also really opened my eyes up to how all these, these different sectors that I've been learning about in my degree, how do these all work fit together and solve a problem.   Trevor Freeman  14:52 Great, yeah, and that's exactly where I want to go next. So, so I'm glad you brought up your capstone project. Just a quick backgrounder for our listeners. A part of an engineering undergrad in Ontario, at least, I think across Canada, is a final year project which is known as the capstone project. So the idea of the capstone project is it's supposed to be a culmination of all the different sort of theoretical things you've learned in your degree, bringing all that knowledge together and giving the students a chance to apply that in some real world scenarios. So, you know, it's interesting, Kieran, to know that your capstone was looking at what does a net zero 2050 reality look like for the City of Ottawa? Because the City of Ottawa has a 2050 Net Zero target, 2040 actually, for the corporation of the City of Ottawa, and 2050 for the community. And there's, there's lots of moving parts to that. It's a real world thing that's happening that a lot of folks are working on. So I'd like to dig into that a little bit more with you and find out. And I know you're not quite finished it yet, so you're not going to have all the answers, but you know what? What are some of the things that you're looking at? What are some of the must do's for us as society and us as a city and all the stakeholders involved if we're going to to achieve that net zero reality?   Speaker 1  16:17 Yeah, so we are a group of, I think, 18 or 19 different undergraduates for all, hopefully graduating at the end of the semester. And so this project is happens every year for the past, like four or five years, I think, and we're the third year focusing on Ottawa. So there's been a lot of things covered. And honestly, at the beginning of the project, we were like, how could we possibly have a third year of material to study? And I think now that we're approaching the final we're realizing how much there is to look at, and maybe we'll have some notes for next year saying, like, there really is a million things that we could look at in this scope. Like, it's just a really big scope, but we have, like, a buildings team, an energy storage team, a nuclear team, a solar team, and a transportation team, and I'm on the integration team, so my job is really just trying to put things together from all the different sub teams who are focusing on very specific things, and Specifically I'm the integration team lead. So I'm focusing on load prediction. So like, in 2050 what's the load that we're going to need to have? And that really, including working with transportation and buildings and understanding how, like, the EVS and the heat pumps and electrified heating are we going to have district heating, like, how is all this going to affect our 2050 load.   Trevor Freeman  17:46 And so what are some of those strategies? Like, the things you mentioned are bang on. That's of course, the things that are going to drive our demand. Are you looking at providing that additional capacity? You know, with local generation, what's the what's the strategy there? How do we have enough energy and have enough clean energy in order to meet that growing demand that you've identified?   Kieran Graham  18:10 Yeah, so that's like the big problem, right? So I'm doing load prediction, and then we have teams like nuclear and solar. And past years we've had wind teams, and I think there was a biofuels team as well past years, and we put all this data, kind of on two sides, and then we feed it through an optimization software that someone is working on in my team, and it's going to look at economically, how competitive something like solar or nuclear or wind or hydro, I guess would be looking within Ottawa like, how do all these compare? And it's all really about economics. When you're looking at it like, which is feasible because there's lots of cool technologies, like I mentioned earlier, but it's optimizing for cost, and then we're finding a low profile, and then ultimately, we want to run it through a software called eTap, which basically is like a digital twin for looking at energy load flow analysis and making sure the grid can actually handle this 2050 load.   Trevor Freeman  19:16 And so you've identified kind of the technology challenges and solutions. I'm glad to hear you talk about like, you know, the economics have to make sense. Of course, there are technologies out there that, yeah, if there was unlimited resources, it would solve our problems. What about the sort of, I guess there's sort of two streams here. There's the regulatory, or let's call it the political side, the enabling aspects of, how do we get this technology that makes sense and has a business case? How do we get that deployed, more deployed faster, you know, more broadly, how do we do that? Did you look at the sort of regulatory, political side of things?   Kieran Graham  19:56 Yeah, so in our capstone, we don't necessarily look. At it super specifically, like we're not necessarily looking at how regulations would affect it, but it's more we're going to be looking at scenarios of, if we have 100 per cent EV adoption in 2050 what is the load going to look like? But you know, the changing of the federal EV mandate, how is that going to look at change the load projection, and then, how is that going to affect our generation? Like, what do we like if we have huge peaks our nuclear teams generation, which won't necessarily be able to ramp as fast as something like a battery storage or or like a hydro dam, or something like these. These are the complications that we're looking at, not necessarily super focused on regulation, but keeping it as like a guiding prospect of, should we be considering 100 per cent EVs, like, is that really a realistic goal for 2015 at this point?   Trevor Freeman  20:59 Yeah. And I guess it's kind of the same thing. And so maybe the answer is similar, but it's this the societal side of things too. And so yeah, like, from a technology perspective, it would be great if we hit that 100 per cent EV coverage by 2050, if not sooner. We know that that's a big source of emissions. It'd be great if we could do sort of like mass heat pump deployment. But at the end of the day, people, you know, we're relying on individuals within our society to make those decisions, and so one aspect of this is, how do we help that be the right decision? And how do we help people want to do this? Because it is the smarter choices. Has that conversation come into the project, and it's okay if it hasn't, I know there's obviously a limited scope of the project. Scope of the project, but is that something that you guys are talking through?   Kieran Graham  21:52 Yeah, I think that's something that we are always like talking about as, like a bunch of young engineers who are really looking to understand the industry. And, you know, making sure these things actually happen is always kind of on our mind, like, what's the point of us doing all this work? And, you know, stressing ourselves till two and two in the morning getting our work done or getting ready for a presentation. It's like, why are we doing all of this? I think you know, the aspect of community involvement and the regulatory and making it make sense is part of our job. Like, yes, that maybe our focus isn't necessarily on making it all make sense for the public, but it's, it's something that we have to consider. Like, if it's not economically and like socially viable, then isn't there's no there's no point. Like, it's just not, not a proper engineering solution. So I think ultimately, it's not something that we're focusing on, but something that we talk about all the time, that like, like we go to community events and kind of learn about what people's like outlooks are on, on all these different problems. And would people be okay with having battery systems and solar systems on their house, and would they be okay with using those, as you know, distributed energy resources that can feed back to the grid? Would people be okay with bi directional charging on their EVs like these are big batteries that could be used for different things. Like these aren't necessarily direct considerations of our capstone, but something that we keep in mind when we're trying to create a solution.   Trevor Freeman  23:26 Yeah, great. And I'm glad to hear you say that, and I'm glad it's part of the conversation. It's certainly, it's certainly a huge aspect of how we actually deploy these strategies and solutions and how we develop them. It's a big part of you know what I get to do at Hydro Ottawa, being on the customer side of things, is listening to our customers and understanding what their realities are, and trying to find ways of okay, well, how does that match up with programs or opportunities that we have to be able to run. So really glad to hear that you're talking through that the challenge of decarbonizing our energy mix. So going from sort of like fossil fuel combustion energy generation to a cleaner solution is really only one challenge that's facing the energy sector. I'm sure you're aware, you've brought up things that are causing an increase in demand, but we're also seeing, you know, non-climate related drivers of increased energy demand. So I'm thinking about, like, AI proliferation and data center growth and all these things. Is that part of the calculus that goes into your project. Are you thinking of, how do we also meet this growing energy demand for non-climate related reasons?   Kieran Graham  24:48 Yeah. I mean, you know, understanding the energy mix, and you know, the load for the future is really difficult, and I know that's my whole job, but you know, if I had an A plus answer, I. Wouldn't have to worry about capstone for the next couple of months. But you know, all these considerations I'm thinking about, so like when I'm getting buildings data from the commercial sector and the residential sector, industry is not very big in Ottawa as an electrical load, at least, but I need to look at that for load prediction, because maybe industry load is going to increase with data center, like, where does that fall under the data the energy split, I know like Kanata Tech Center, like, that's going to be growing, and that's a big energy load, and I know it's a big stress on distribution systems, and the feeders over there struggling, and I know Hydro Ottawa is planning to upgrade those locations. But how can we maybe predict that, like data center or data center like load in Canada, that? How can we deal with that in different way, like adding a battery system over there, or maybe generation closer to there, which just stress the overall grid less.   Trevor Freeman  26:05 Yeah, I think it's in, you know, for our non-Ottawa listeners, Kanata is a part of the city that has a high concentration of, sort of the high tech sector. It's, it's certainly a growing area in Ottawa, and one of our constrained areas on the grid that we're investing in and bringing a lot additional capacity to in the coming years. So those challenges that you identified, how do we deal with, not only this energy transition from a clean technology perspective, but also a changing economic demographics like we're seeing more investment in these areas, and how do we make sure that we're keeping up. So yeah, that's definitely, definitely a part of it. So one of the goals of the podcast is definitely to make sure the message is clear that the energy transition is not something of the future. It's not something that will happen eventually. We're in it right now. We're seeing the change to our to the way we use energy, and the way we produce energy and move and store and all those things. So is there something that's happening now, you know, within the energy space that you're particularly excited about that you've, you've kind of learned about in the last little while that you want to get involved in when you when you graduate?   Kieran Graham  27:16 Yeah, so my whole degree is about this. So there's so many different aspects that I could talk about in that I'm interested in. And specifically to my capstone, machine learning is a big field in pretty much anything like machine learning and AI will be involved in any sort of capacity, in any industry. I'm sure. The problem with my specific application is I'm trying to predict 2050, load, and our load for the past few years hasn't really been increasing. Due to efficiency, and there was covid and different aspects like that. And so how do we apply that, and what, what kind of way is really interesting. But another thing that I'm really interested in is virtual power plants and stuff like micro grids. And how does all these, these little DERs and non-wire solutions, how do all these these work together? And how can we, like as a community, work with our So, like solar on our houses, or battery systems in our houses, our EVs, our bidirectional charging, as I mentioned earlier, like how, how could these technologies work together to really reduce the stress on the distribution system for you guys at Hydro Ottawa? And how could everything work together? And you see it happening in California. It's like being tested. If I think Ottawa would just be a great place for this, because of the nature of everyone having cars and everything's everyone has big, pretty big houses. We can have solar on our roofs, like, yes, we have a winter but which has less sunlight, but solar is still incredibly viable and useful. So how can all of this work together and become a virtual power plant that one house has energy and you know, the generations not able to keep up, or the distribution system is failing for whatever reason, you can rely on a community which has battery systems or generation systems just locally. How can we use that to then power each other's houses? I think that's really cool, a future thing that really looking forward to.   Trevor Freeman  29:26 Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that gets talked a lot about, and, you know, in the industry in general, but even, you know, at Hydro Ottawa, looking at, how do we leverage, you know, this is what you're talking about. How do we leverage customer owned devices, customer equipment, to help manage grid capacity needs. So if we're in a time of increased demand on the grid, how do we make calls out to people that have batteries, people that have EVs, that are plugged in, people that have smart devices in their home, and say, Hey, we need a little bit of capacity. We're going to ask you to draw from your battery instead of the grid, or we're going to ask you to pause your EV charging, or turn your thermostat down a degree in order to generate that capacity on the grid. And it's, it's not even so much, you know, it's, it's not that the grid is failing and able to keep up. It's otherwise we would have to build a much bigger grid. We'd have to invest more in the grid. This lets us be more efficient with how we invest in the grid and how we build out so we can sort of not over build, which traditionally what we do is we kind of build the worst case scenario. What? What would we do if that worst case scenario wasn't as bad, if we could pull on these, these other customer owned equipment? So yeah, very cool concept, and definitely something that we're looking at here at Hydro Ottawa, and have a couple pilots coming up on that.   Kieran Graham  30:53 Yeah. And I just wanted to say, like earlier, you're mentioning, like, how do we work on, how do we solve these solutions of net zero within a community, I just think, like the adoption and community incentives and how do we work together? Like, these are the solutions. These are, these are the things that if we as a community decide to do, it's just a very viable thing. It's just we need to be able to work together as a community to be able to do it.   Trevor Freeman  31:22 Yeah, so, you know, we've been talking a little bit about a different approach to energy and that community approach. I really like that based on on what you know from your studies and your experience in this area. What do you think the utility of the future looks like, like? What does that look like to you? What is the role of the utility moving forward?   Kieran Graham  31:47 Yeah, so it's a hard question, because obviously, there's so many things that could happen. And you know, like I was saying, predicting the future is very hard, and I can't just, can't just use machine learning. It's not a pattern. It's not like something that's going to be super predictable. But I do think like the idea of micro grids and working together and distributed energy resources, like all these things are going to be needed to be able to work together. So there's going to be so many little systems and organization, and the utility was going to be the person, kind of, like a mini IESO, I guess, like, how, like, you're going to be controlling, or not necessarily controlling, but organizing. Who's going to be using their DERs, like, which areas are going to need more solar deployment? Where can we integrate vehicle to grid charging? Where can we add more charging infrastructure for communities? Where can we put, like, community batteries, like, more of like an organizer of even smaller systems within the community. I think that's just the nature of technology is going to be, come more complicated, but we're also going to become more proficient and be able to organize those things. So, yeah, I guess that's, that's what I view the future of utilities.   Trevor Freeman  33:17 Yeah, it's, it's a little bit, you know, lots of, lots of, lots of concepts. There it's, it's getting a little bit closer to the end user when it when we look at, how do we operate the grid? So right now, you brought up the IESO, that's our Independent Electricity System Operator who operates on the provincial level. I think the future is that that that level of operation gets a little bit closer to the end user, and that the local distribution companies like Hydro Ottawa have more control to identify where does the grid need extra capacity? Where does it have capacity that we can shift? And that's all happening at the same time as technology is giving us more insight into that. We're having we're going to have more understanding of what's happening down at that granular level. So we're going to be able to make these calls a little bit better. So, yeah, I think, I think you're on the right track. I think that's, that's where we're going. We're going to more of a bidirectional flow of energy, a little bit more closer to the end user control over how the grid is operated.   Kieran Graham  34:20 Yeah, and in our classes, we learn about, like in Europe, how they have bidirectional charging and generation. In like Germany, people have solar panels on their balconies everywhere, and it the solar penetration like Germany, a lot of parts of Germany are on the same latitude as us. So it's like, it's not infeasible for like Ottawa, to have solar everywhere and have that be part of the grid, and not just for your own benefit or anything like that. Like, it's a, it's a real possibility.   Trevor Freeman  34:51 Yeah, yeah. I think there's, there's lots of things that we can do to really improve, to really leverage the devices that are out there, to leverage. Opportunities that we have in front of us. So, Kieran, as we kind of get close to the end of our conversation here, are there any words of wisdom that you'd like to share? You know, you're kind of at the end of the beginning of your career journey. Here, you're almost done your undergrad, about to take whatever next steps there are, that's, you know, starting your career or further education. What about you know someone who's maybe at the start of that part of their journey? You know someone that's thinking about wanting to get involved in the energy transition, maybe wanting a career in that space. What words of wisdom would you provide?   Kieran Graham  35:35 Yeah, so I mean, there's plenty of things I would recommend, you know, for young students, and for people similar approaching my situation, I think the biggest thing is just like networking and creating communities. Like, if you're a new student going into school, like, be part of socials. Be part of engineering societies, and or not engineering societies even like you can just any sort of club or sports team, or just have a community of people that you can really rely on to, like, if you're struggling with an assignment or a topic or a certain class, just like, have someone to be able to talk to talk through like that topic, and ultimately, like those connections who are helping you out with things Like, it'll go back, and they'll be like, Hey, do you understand this? You can get help them. And then you have a friendship, you have a connection, you have someone who's maybe going to work in a field that, like, in the future, you'll be able to leverage to get a job. Like, I have people who, you know, I helped in, or probably they helped me more because they were in older years, and they are working at different industries, and I can now talk to them and be like, hey, like, how do you like your new job now that you're in the workforce, and do you have any opportunities that I can, I could look into working for? So really creating that network of people who can help you out with those things, like you don't have to do it alone, and it really just opens your eyes and allows you to have really good conversations and prepare you for the future.   Trevor Freeman  37:08 Yeah, so if I could, if I could just build on that, it's the importance of creating those connections in that community is great for your own learning, your own knowledge, but also for solving problems, like, no problem is solved by a single discipline or a single focus. You know, it's great that you're learning all these tools in your engineering degree, but you know, real problems get solved by a mix of, you know, the engineer folks, the finance folks, the customer side of things, the, you know, societal side of things. So really great advice. Thanks for sharing that with us. So Kieran, we always end our interviews with a series of questions that I ask to all our guests, so I'll dive right into those. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Kieran Graham  37:56 Yeah, so a lot of my reading has been textbooks recently, but I think when I have the time I read a lot of dystopian, so I'll say Fahrenheit 451, even though it's a pretty common one, but it's just really good and really relevant to things.   Trevor Freeman  38:10 So yeah, definitely one of those classics that's important for everyone to read or at least be aware of. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's one that you would recommend everybody?   Kieran Graham  38:21 Yeah, there's plenty of good shows those are a little bit easier to find some time and brain power for, but big Star Wars fan, so I'm going to say Andor, just a really good show, really relevant, really love that show.   Trevor Freeman  38:34 Yeah, fantastic. I agree. And I just so my oldest kid is 12, and I've just got him starting to watch that one. So it's a great. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Kieran Graham  38:49 Yeah, another really hard question. I'm going to Peru right after I graduate. So if you guys wanted to pay for that, that would be great.   Trevor Freeman  38:56 It's not an offer. Just to be clear.   Kieran Graham  38:58 No, I know. I would just say, like, maybe I really have been seeing these videos about Kyrgyzstan, like the those, like East Asian or, guess, Western Asia countries like Kyrgyzstan would be really cool.   Trevor Freeman  39:17  Cool. Yeah, very neat. Who's someone that you admire?   Kieran Graham  39:20 Yeah, so I admire plenty of people. I think I'm going to say my grandpa, though. I've always looked up to him and like how he lives his life, and, you know, he's funny, and just like, has really good values. And I think he's just someone who I ultimately, as a person, look up to. And you know, he worked at Carlton, so I don't know it's just like, the future of like, where I would like to see myself.   Trevor Freeman  39:48 Great. Yeah, great answer. And finally, what's something that you're really excited about when it comes to the energy sector, its future, and you have the benefit of being at the very beginning of your career, you get to get involved in this. So what's something you're excited about?   Kieran Graham  39:59 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I said earlier, like, there's plenty of things, but I'll say virtual power plants again. Like, if we could create a community where we have DERs and are working together micro grids and all of this, like, that would be so amazing. It'd be so cool. So I think that's going to be, that's my thing. I'm super excited for.   Trevor Freeman  40:21 Very cool well, I'm very excited to see you get involved in that, and thanks for your time today. Kieran, it's great to chat with you. It's great to get some insight into kind of what the next generation of engineers are learning and really looking forward to, kind of seeing where you land in short order here and what your career starts to look like. So thanks very much.   Kieran Graham  40:41 Awesome. Thank you very much.   Trevor Freeman  40:43 Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.

Send a textHey y'all heeeeeey!! Hope everyone has been doing well. Today's episode is brought to you by escaped reality and wishful thinking. Sit back and enjoy babes. XOXO 2 Bad B*tches. 

...SURPRISE! Gotcha. Yes the mini feature in this month's episode of The Cycling Podcast Féminin is all about two surprising wins from last season. We'll be hearing from reigning world champion Magdaleine Vallieres about her huge shock win last September and from podcast favourite Lotte Claes about the Omloop Het Niewsblad victory which upset all the big hitters last February.Rose Manley, Denny Gray and Rebecca Charlton will also be covering the less surprising UAE Tour where Elisa Longo Borghini took the overall title for the third time and Lorena Wiebes claimed all three sprint stages. The less than thrilling racing does however give the team the chance to look more closely at superstar Wiebes. An athlete who makes a credible bid for the title of best sprinter that has ever been but is still so often overlooked by both media and fans.You can hear more from world champion Magdaleine Vallieres in our forthcoming Friends Special, an exclusive for Friends of The Podcast subscribers. Hear about the 1,000km bikepacking trip that sparked her imagination as a nine-year-old in Quebec, her difficult transition into the elite ranks and her rise to claim the rainbow stripes.Also on the agenda: nominative determinism jumpers, the mystery of the fan club president's notebook and the briefest of peeks at Denny's crystal balls.Follow us on social media:Twitter @cycling_podcastInstagram @thecyclingpodcastFriends of the PodcastSign up as a Friend of the Podcast at thecyclingpodcast.com to listen to new special episodes every month plus a back catalogue of more than 300 exclusive episodes.The 11.01 CappuccinoOur regular email newsletter is now on Substack. Subscribe here for frothy, full-fat updates to enjoy any time (as long as it's after 11am).The Cannibal & BadgerFriends of the Podcast can join the discussion at our new virtual pub, The Cannibal & Badger. A friendly forum to talk about cycling and the podcast. Log in to your Friends of the Podcast account to join in.The Cycling Podcast is on StravaThe Cycling Podcast was founded in 2013 by Richard Moore, Daniel Friebe and Lionel Birnie.

KCCCC Season 005, Episode 04 This film has a 12 million dollar budget, it probably lost that amount of money on top of that. Also buy my book: Amazon Link Kyle's Bluesky @Lordbrokenshire.bsky.socail Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/Kyle-and-Codys-Cult-Cinema-Cast-100757291566807/ YouTube Art by Audra Balion

Most youth camp games fail for one simple reason… and almost nobody realizes it. Leaders spend hours planning activities, but kids lose interest in minutes — and it's not because they're distracted or bored. Today, I'm sitting down with the creator of Camp Clue — a game that's been used in camps around the world to keep kids fully engaged. He's breaking down exactly why it works — and how you can design games that actually hold attention all week long. And how you can get it for yourself! CAMP CLUE ON DYM https://www.downloadyouthministry.com/p/camp-clue/camps-and-events/events-6260.html SHOW NOTES Shownotes & Transcripts https://www.hybridministry.xyz/187 ❄️ WINTER SOCIAL MEDIA PACK https://www.patreon.com/posts/winter-seasonal-144943791?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link HYBRID HERO MEMBERS GET IT FREE! https://www.patreon.com/hybridministry YM Lab - Anthony's Old Podcast https://podcast.downloadyouthministry.com/ymlab/

Link to episode page This week's Department of Know is hosted by Rich Stroffolino with guests Steve Zalewski, co-host, Defense in Depth, and Nick Espinosa, host, The Deep Dive Radio Show Thanks to our show sponsor, Devo/Strike 48 Strike48 is the Agentic Log Intelligence Platform that actually puts AI agents to work, maximizing log visibility without blowing your budget. Find threats your siloed tools miss. Get started today with pre-built AI agents and workflows that investigate, detect, and respond 24/7 or build your own at strike48.com/security.  All links and the video of this episode can be found on CISO Series.com        

Marto goes wild on a Gotcha Call | Another classic eyewitness unearthed in Adelaide | Getting kicked out from a pub or clubSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nick and Justin catch one of them ass darts. Post show song: FADE ME OUT, from the recent BROWNWALL album POPPING A SQUAT FOR THE HOLIDAYS (Nunziata, Murphy, Makarewicz, Robinson).  By the way, you can donate to this show in the link if you have more money than sense. You can follow on Insta and on Twit and can comment on these on the Boards. You can also write a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts!Theme music by Nick Nunziata and Steve Murphy and their many bands can be heard on Soundcloud.

Jess got bamboozled into staying at a haunted hotel... Did Charlotte end up sending that heated break up group text? If Kramer takes a girl to this spot on Valentine's Day, is it a date?

In this episode I sit down and share the entire inspiration for this D-Now, Winter Retreat & Summer Camp on-going games with my friend, Andrew Jansen. Andrew is a 10+ year youth worker, and his assassin game sparked this entire podcast mini-series. He expains his creative (and super CHEAP) adaptation to this game. Plus! Andrew shared his lock-in survival guide for FREE! Andrew's Lock-in Guide: https://www.patreon.com/posts/10-year-veterans-146449370?utmmedium=clipboardcopy&utmsource=copyLink&utmcampaign=postsharecreator&utmcontent=join_link SHOW NOTES Shownotes & Transcripts https://www.hybridministry.xyz/184 BECOME A HYBRID HERO https://www.patreon.com/hybridministry ❄️ WINTER SOCIAL MEDIA PACK https://www.patreon.com/posts/winter-seasonal-144943791?utmmedium=clipboardcopy&utmsource=copyLink&utmcampaign=postsharecreator&utmcontent=join_link

Jody Grunden - Anders CPA On Working Together: "It's only going to help everybody if we can all learn how to get better and faster." Every business owner needs to watch their money.  You watch it come in, go out and hopefully end up with some leftover to make sure you are doing more than just moving money. But not every business is large enough to justify a full-time chief financial officer.  Which leads to a conundrum, how do you get the talented person to help you with the financial end of your business when you don't have enough financial paperwork for them to poke at full time? Jody Grunden saw this need years ago and has built a virtual CFO business that he then sold to Anders CPA.  Jody discusses what a virtual CFO can do and why it is important. Listen as Jody details how the use of a virtual CFO has helped grow many business.  Plus he details the value of standing out.  In his case, with a Hawaiian shirt. Enjoy! Visit Jody at: https://anderscpa.com/   Podcast Overview: 00:00 "Virtual Beginnings and Success" 03:57 "Next Year Finally Paid Off" 06:50 "Interactive Pricing Strategy Breakdown" 11:40 "Finding Success Beyond Accounting" 12:40 "Pivoting Amid Layoffs and Guilt" 18:45 "Educating for Success, Not Selling" 19:42 "Productizing Services with Subscriptions" 24:58 "Dynamic Forecasting Explained" 26:33 Truck Repair Business Insights 31:20 "Flexible Client Collaboration Process" 35:07 "Building Connections and Growth" 38:29 "Rethinking Strategy for Success" 42:01 "Thought Leadership Eased Hiring" 44:26 "Expanding Connections Beyond Remote Teams" 47:32 "Scaling Processes for Sustainability" Sponsors: Live Video chat with our customers here with LiveSwitch: https://join.liveswitch.com/gfj3m6hnmguz Some videos have been recorded with Riverside: https://www.riverside.fm/?utm_campaign=campaign_5&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=rewardful&via=james-kademan Podcast Transcription: Jody Grundon [00:00:00]: I realized real quick that, you know, hey, I wasn't an accountant, I was an entrepreneur and I just didn't realize it. I didn't enjoy accounting and I still don't today. I don't enjoy accounting, but I love the entrepreneur part of it and growing a business and seeing how successful I can get that business and then even more so helping other people be successful running their business, which is, which is even a bigger joy. James Kademan [00:00:27]: You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphant successes of business owners across the land. Downloadable audio episodes can be found in the podcast link found@drawincustomers.com we are locally interwritten by the bank of Sun Prairie Calls On Call Extraordinary Answering Service as well as the Bold Business Book and Live Switch. Today we are welcoming slash preparing to learn from Jody Grundon of Anders cpa. Which I feel like this is right about the time to start talking taxes. Jody, is that safe to say? Jody Grundon [00:01:00]: I. I guess so. But man, you don't ask me to ask tax questions, that's for sure. James Kademan [00:01:04]: No, so let's just break it down. What is Andrew cpa? Jody Grundon [00:01:09]: Yeah, so Andrew cpa. They're, they're a, one of the largest CPA firms in the nation. They're pretty large. They do a lot of different things, audit, tax. But the, the special that I run is on in what we call the Client Advisory Service Group, which is virtual CFO services. So that's something that, that I founded way back when. It was about 20 some years ago. A lot of CPA firms now you use that type of a service. Jody Grundon [00:01:31]: I actually founded it back, you know, 20 plus years ago. So it's been a great ride. Before it was, before it was even a thing. Yeah, it was one of those, one of those things that there was something called outsourced CFO or outsourced CPA service, which was outsourcing it to a foreign country type of thing. And I'm like, well, that's not what I meant. So I'm trying to figure out how, what can I call it? And I, and so I did. I got the big, the thesaurus, if you remember one of those things. I got one of those things out. Jody Grundon [00:01:55]: I'm like, what could I, what could I name this thing? I thought virtual sounds kind of cool. And, and then my partner's like, well, no one will think you're real. And I'm like, ah, they will. It'll catch on. And back then we had the yellow pages and so we, we did the yellow page Thing didn't really get a whole lot of traction. And then we decided, hey, we're going to go this, do this on the Internet. And so when we did on the Internet, it was kind of cool because nobody else was doing it. So it was one of those things that we are right away number one in the rankings. Jody Grundon [00:02:21]: No, yeah, we. James Kademan [00:02:22]: Back 20 years ago, man, that's. Jody Grundon [00:02:24]: Yeah, yeah. And we have, we, we. We haven't gone far from that. So we're still number one in the rankings today, which is kind of cool. James Kademan [00:02:31]: Be interesting to go back and just visit if you had a time machine or something like that and just visit. What was the Internet like 20 years ago? Jody Grundon [00:02:38]: It was brutal. James Kademan [00:02:39]: No YouTube. I don't even know if Google was around back then. I mean, yeah, totally different world. Jody Grundon [00:02:45]: It was. And it's kind of funny because everybody thought, well, that was. That's a big waste of money. Don't put money in there. Because we, we got out of the yellow page. Yellow page is what accounting firms are always in. Accounting firms, law firms, you name it. You had these big ads, you spent tons of money, and then you just kind of hope people called you. Jody Grundon [00:03:00]: And I didn't have the money back then, so it's like I bootstrapped my own company. So it was one of those things that I just couldn't compete with the big boys. And so the only, only thing we could do is try something different. I thought, hey, this Internet thing sounds great. Let's try it. And yeah. And everybody thought, hey, you're wasting your money. No one's going to call. Jody Grundon [00:03:19]: And the funny part is, nobody called. It took a long time to actually get going and figure it out and get people to realize what virtual CFO even was. It took about, I'd say, probably five to 10 years, really, to. To get a lot of traction for it. James Kademan [00:03:38]: Stick with it for a while. Jody Grundon [00:03:39]: Oh, yeah. It wasn't one of those things. Overnight successes. It was, hey, we started it. And they, they always say, you know, building the plane as it's flying in the air type of thing. That's exactly what we did. It was like, okay, what can we do to make this better? Improve this? And we were not profitable at all for probably eight, eight, nine, ten years of that. It was, it was one of those things. Jody Grundon [00:03:57]: My wife kept asking me, hey, when are we going to do something? You need to get a job? I'm like, no, no, no. Next year's gonna be the perfect year. And then next year coming, there'd be all these obstacles that we we didn't overcome. And then it's like, oh, well, next year will be the best year. And then finally next year ended up being the right year, and it just, it just blew up from there and became super profitable, super high growth. And, you know, we grew it to Gez, probably 10 million bucks or so before we actually sold it to Anders and became part of the, the larger accounting firm. James Kademan [00:04:25]: Gotcha. The irony of the CFO not making money. Jody Grundon [00:04:28]: Right. Yeah, I know. I tell everybody that too. The other irony is I can't, I can't add in my head, oh, wow, you got a CFO that has to use a calculator. Yeah. Which is kind of funny. And, and, and the funny part about that was on my, the very first. So I, I, I speak at a lot of conferences, and the very first conference I was invited to, I was super unprepared. Jody Grundon [00:04:47]: You know, it was one of those things. I just didn't know what to talk about. Here I'm supposed to talk about. Talk to 30 at that time, agency owners and, and teach them how to be profitable and all that kind of stuff. And the guy's like, do not, whatever you do, do not bring a PowerPoint. I'm like, okay, okay, I won't bring a PowerPoint. And I'm thinking, okay, now what do I do? What do I do? And, you know, the funny part about it was my luggage got stuck, got routed to the wrong airport. So I came in. Jody Grundon [00:05:13]: No, no, no luggage. I didn't have anything really to wear other than I had a T shirt. I had shorts and, and, and, and gym. Gym shoes. And I was like, what do I do? And I went to the local mall, bought some stuff, and, and at the time, my credit cards kept getting denied. And I was like, what's going on here? Why are my credit cards getting denied? This is weird. And, and so eventually, I, I, I, I looked across the mall. There was a Tommy Bahama store there. Jody Grundon [00:05:37]: And I thought, oh, that's kind of cool. That's a little different. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll get some Tommy Bahama stuff, because he, he said, do not be the traditional accountant. I'm like, okay, that's kind of cool. And, but by the time I got, I got done, I was like, the only thing I had left was my debit card, because nothing was working. And so I went to this dinner after the fact and that. And you can imagine, here the finance guy comes in. You know, at that time, I was wearing an Italian Bahama shirt and like, hey, find this guy wearing Italian Bahama shirt. Jody Grundon [00:06:03]: I'm like, hey, I'll get the hors d' oeuvres for 30 business owners here. I'm thinking, this is kind of cool. And I go to pay with my debit card, and guess what? It got denied. I'm like, what the heck?

"A machine sitting in the garage... has no utility. It only has potential."Welcome to The Utility of Action. We have spent three episodes building the Skill, the Chassis (Body), and the Operating System (Mind). But a tuned engine is useless if it never leaves the driveway.In this chapter, Vulcan discusses the difference between Education (data storage) and Training (friction). He challenges you to audit your beliefs: Are you actually thinking, or are you just "dancing to the music" because it's the only tune you've ever heard?Key Topics:Potential vs. Utility: Why safety has no value.The Music Analogy: Are your beliefs just conditioning?The Broken Engine: Why the loudest person in the room is usually compensating.Ego vs. Understanding: Stop looking for the "Gotcha" moment.Don't just sit in storage. Interact with the world.#SundaySmoke #UtilityOfAction #Stoicism #Mindset #Potential #Vulcan

 Quaranteam - Dave In Dallas: Part 3 Houses Belsus bonds over pain. Based on a post by RonanJWilkerson, in 12 parts. Listen to the Podcast at Explicit Novels. Becca took a small sip of her drink. Her eyes flared lightly, but she didn't cough or choke. "Dave, tell me a story from when you were younger. Something stupid you once did." Dave's head fell back against the couch. "Oh boy. I didn't do any of the usual stupid stuff. Far too insular for that, no group of friends to drag me into wild, hilarious mistakes." Dave thought for a minute, trying to decide if he should tell this particular story. Or if he could. Hell, they were stuck living with him, they deserved to know. "Okay, so this happened in my second summer of college. I was tutoring a lot, and one lady in particular met with me at least once a week. Really nice person, pretty too. Her name was Kim Dawson. She'd gone all in on the late 80's media image of what pretty looked like; dyed blonde hair, boob implants, blue contact lenses. That helped her professionally of course; she worked as a stripper and did well enough to pay her tuition out of pocket, plus a small but nice rent house for her and her son." "You went to her house?" Dave nodded while swallowing the sip he'd just taken. "After the first several sessions, we got comfortable with each other, and it was helpful to her for me to come over on days she didn't have classes, especially if she had to go to work after our tutoring session." Dave paused for a moment, gathering the courage to continue. "So, about two months after we started working together, I'm at her house, sitting at her dinner table. It's a small round table to one side of her kitchen. Like I said, it's a small house, but good condition and she kept it well. Big enough for her and a six year old. Anyway, she gets up to take a brain break and decides she's going to change. She wasn't heading to work, and had come back from running errands, so she wanted to put on something more comfortable." Dave noted the ladies exchanging glances amongst themselves. "Just,; don't judge okay?" He paused again for a moment. "She left her bedroom door open, but the table was well away from the door, like a big angle away." Another look shared. "I didn't follow her with my eyes or anything, but she started talking to me through the open door, so naturally I turned my head towards the door. There was a mirror on the wall that I could see. Now, no, no she wasn't visible in the mirror. At least not from the angle and distance I was at." The looks passing among the ladies were both cryptic in the specifics and utterly obvious in the general meaning. "Oh, I forgot to mention that earlier we had discussed payment. She said this might have to be the last session for a while because she didn't think she could afford to pay. I had told her we could work something out." Three sets of eyebrows raised. "No, not like that. I just assured her I'd let her pay it out if she needed to. I was trying to be accommodating. She needed the help, she put in the work, I was just trying to be helpful." "Oh, baby." Jan said sympathetically. Dave winced. "So then she says she can't hear me well and asks me to come to the door to talk to her." He sighed. "I didn't. I told her I couldn't, I didn't want to violate her privacy. I don't think those were the actual words I used, but it was something like that." Dave couldn't even look at the others, just stared up at the ceiling. "She insists, says she strips to a G-string multiple times a night and she's already in a bra and shorts, she's just looking for a shirt, so it's no big deal." Another sigh. "Then she finally says she wants me to come back there; to; be with her. She; she said I could sleep with her in exchange for tutoring." "Oh my god, David you didn't did you?" Lupie asked. "No, no of course I didn't. And that was the problem. I couldn't. I felt frozen. What she was asking me to do was against everything I'd been taught about being a good guy. And I had nothing against her, but I'd been taught that all the guys at the strip club were abusing her, and I didn't want to do the same, so I stayed put and told her I couldn't do that to her, we can work something else out. After a bit more back and forth, she got pissed and told me to leave. My legs had been frozen the entire time, locked up. I finally managed to force myself up and walked out." All three ladies were absolutely silent. "That wasn't the end of it. After waiting a week, I tried calling a few times to see if she wanted a tutoring session. She never answered." More silence. "Two semesters later, I take organic chem, and one of my classmates and study partners is a friend of Kim's. I didn't know that at first, she waited until we had been working together awhile. She finally told me it was a ruse. Kim made enough in two or three nights to pay rent for a month, and another four covered all the groceries for a month. Mind you, this was early 90's so a lot of things were cheaper. Hell, gas was barely over a dollar a gallon. Kim had set it up to make a fantasy play and I blew it. According to Beth, Kim felt hurt. That was absolutely mind boggling to me. I just couldn't accept the idea that I could mean enough to a woman to hurt her in anyway, certainly not by not having sex with her." Becca shifted against him, turning toward him. "Yeah, I know. I'm an idiot." "You really had no idea?" Jan queried. "Not a bit. I just didn't want to hurt her. I didn't want to be the jackass. Turns out I was anyway." "David," Becca asked, "could I get some help with my math?" She kept her tone even, but her face belied her joke. "Oh hush." Becca worried about missing out on college, so Jan suggested she work through some of Dave's history and biography books as a substitute for a history course. The two were downstairs in the library, reading and talking. This left Lupie and Dave alone in bed. Both were certain it was not a mere coincidence. Lupie curled into Dave's side, her head resting on his chest. She wore a light camisole. He wore his usual; nothing. "David, I wanted to thank you for backing me up the other morning with Esme." "You're welcome. I just thought it was important she not get the idea she can play me against you." Lupie snuggled him tighter. "Still, I think it fair you know what she was about to say." "Only if you think it necessary." "It's a little embarrassing. I thought she was asleep. And I thought I was being quiet." Lupie paused, blushing. "Still it has been several years since I've,; um;” "Gotcha." "Yes, so, um, there have been times when I've; taken care of certain needs. And I was thinking of you. She must have been awake and heard me call your name." Lupie's head was buried as hard into his chest as possible without breaking ribs. "Well, now you don't have to imagine. You have me, and I have you." "You're not upset?" "More like flattered. And frustrated with myself. If I'd picked up on some signs, maybe;” "Let's not go down the 'what if' road David. You're right. We have each other now. We'll build from here." Dave tightened the hug for a moment. "You know, I passed by when you were on your computer earlier. It's kinda cool to see you work. You have this penetrating gaze, like you're dissecting everything you read, weighing each word in a balance and jettisoning the unworthy." "Hmm, must have been when I was working on that memo about handover protocols. Those details can give anyone a headache." Lupie kissed his jawline. "But I don't want to talk about work now. Just hold me, David." September 23, 2020. "What do you want to make for dinner tonight?" Dave asked as he and Janice entered the kitchen. "Not sure just yet. Tell you what, you check the fridge, I'll go into the pantry and check the shelves. Let's see what we come up with from what we see." "Okay." Dave started scanning the fridge shelves for ingredients when a thought occurred to him. The pantry was private. It had been a day or so for Jan. He walked over and opened the door. "Oh good, I was wondering if I'd have to play damsel in distress needing my big strong man to help me find something in this tight little space." "Well, I do have a probe made especially for tight spaces." He kissed her, balancing hunger with tenderness. Jan hummed into the kiss. She wrapped her arms around Dave's neck and pulled her body against his. "Umm-hmm, and that probe is so very good too." She nibbled lightly on his lower lip. Knowing they had little time, and Jan was up for a quickie, Dave took hold of her slacks and panties at the waist band and pulled them down to her knees. Jan emitted a delighted squeak. Her eyes shone with excitement as he stood and picked her up, carrying her to a bare patch of wall between shelves. He shoved his cargo shorts and boxers to his ankles, then hooked his hands under her thighs and lifted and folded her in one motion as he pressed her to the wall. She gasped and moaned, giving her approval and yielding herself to his power, confident that he would meet her needs as he saw to his own. Dave drove himself into her, the serum effects having made her fully wet already. He slid full length on the first thrust. She groaned happily, hungrily and gripped his shoulders. They were pressed for time, so he pounded into her hot wet tunnel with fervor. Such was her excitement that she reached her first climax in just a few minutes. Desperately trying to contain her enjoyment, Jan bit Dave's shoulder as he accelerated his thrusting, pounding more vigorously than he ever had, racing Jan to a second climax a minute before he burst inside her, kicking her over the orgasmic abyss a third time. Dave stopped, holding her in place as both panted for air. The enclosed pantry suddenly felt hot and muggy. His legs felt wobbly. He carefully lowered her legs to the ground, allowing himself to fall outside of her as he did so. Jan pouted for a moment, then dropped to her knees to clean off his cock. "Can't make a mess in here now can we?" She said with a wink. She pulled his shorts up before drawing her own pants into place. Then she sauntered out the door. Dave followed, but nearly ran into her when she stopped short two steps out the door. Lupie and Becca stood there, smirking and clapping. Jan blushed and turned, burying her face in Dave's chest. "Get over it girl, we're all gonna catch each other like that once in a while." Becca said. "I'll remind you of that when it's you," Lupie razzed. Dinner was only a little late, but it was good. Lupie winkingly attributed the good taste to the fact it was made with love. September 24, 2020. Dave looked into the kitchen and saw Lupie at the counter, her back to him, working away. He walked carefully up behind her and gently placed his hands on her hips. She started for a second, then settled into him, allowing her back to rest on his chest. She laid her work down and lay her head on his shoulder. "Hmm. This, this right here." Dave turned his head to hers and they shared a slow, soft kiss as he brought his hands around to her abdomen. They rocked slowly together, swaying to unheard music. What Dave had intended as a happy little moment escalated when Lupie started grinding her rear against his crotch. A moment later, she brought his hands up to her tits. Dave was caught between excitement and control. He very much wanted to paw at her lovely mounds. A wonderfully medium size, Lupie's tits were just barely less than a handful. About as pert as could be natural for a woman in her early thirties. She moaned as he groped. Lupie spun in his arms, kissed him, grabbed his hand, and took off to the bedroom. Dave kept up easily, grinning and laughing the whole way. He stopped her twice to pull her in for a kiss. Once the door closed, they each ripped off their own clothes and sprinted to the bed. Lupie pulled Dave on top of her, her legs apart, insistently rubbing her body against him. "Hungry much?" "What's going on is a tragedy of epic proportions, but I also feel more free than I have in ages. Since I was a teen. Now fuck your bitch in heat David." She snagged his head in her hands and kissed him passionately. Her legs wrapped around him, leaving him enough room to maneuver himself to her entrance. Her own thrusting and abundance of lubrication had him sinking deep into her the moment he lined himself up. She kept up her pelvic motions, timing them with Dave's thrusting. They fucked frantically, frenetically, neither pausing or relenting until Dave burst into Lupie, shooting several thick ropes into her warm, waiting depths. Lupie shuddered with his emissions, griping him tightly with her arms, legs, and inner muscles. They lay panting for a few moments and then looked at each other and laughed. September 25, 2020. Friday mid-morning found Dave on the couch, debating a point of fandom with Becca. "Picard was way wilder than Kirk. They just seem the other way around in contrast with their first officers." "That's crazy talk, Becca. Picard is the staid diplomat that negotiates treaties. Kirk is the bar-room brawler that fought every alien in the sector, or bedded them." "Kirk was the A-student that cheated on the big final exam but got a pass afterward since he was a teacher's pet. Picard was an athlete and got into a bar fight with Naussicans. And got stabbed through the heart." "How dare you speak so insultingly of Jean-Luc the great?" Dave mock-scowled. "Because he's good but not great." Becca giggled. "Blasphemy! I'll shall exorcise the demon from your mind young one!" "And just how to do you plan on doing that?" The grin was the same, but her eyes had picked up a hungry glimmer. Dave did not answer. He lunged at her, hands reaching for her ribs. And then he began tickling her. Becca let out an "Oh!" As Dave barreled into her, pressing her against the couch arm. As soon as he began tickling her, she let out a loud happy shriek, followed by a series of cackles. Dave relented briefly and she caught her breath. Becca gave him a quick kiss, then slipped from under him, heading for the stairs with a look over her shoulder. With a huge grin, Dave shot after her, catching her at the top of the stairs and tickling her again. Her legs gave out from under her during the pleasant bombardment on her sides. He scooped her up and carried her the rest of the way to the bedroom. He kicked the door shut, then walked over and tossed her on the bed before jumping atop her, kissing and groping. She responded in kind, hungry and happy. They started shedding clothes wildly, paying no heed to where they landed. Mutually nude, mutually aroused, hands roaming they rolled on the bed. Dave slipped his hands to her ribs again. Becca squealed in anticipation just as he began to tickle her. Laughing and cackling she wiggled about, half-heartedly trying to escape his grasp. In the commotion, Dave still managed to align himself with her entrance, and pushed himself partially inside. He stopped his assault on her ribs just as he penetrated. A cross between a gasp and a sigh ushered from Becca. Eyes closed, she grinned wildly. Dave drove himself slowly, methodically within her. She draped her hands around his back and her legs around his waist. A look of blissful contentment blazed forth from her. He coaxed her to climax three times before finally allowing himself to spill into her. Afterward, they lay spooning in bed, Dave's chest against Becca's back, his right arm draped over her side, hand resting on her tummy. Breathing, just being close. Until Dave heard soft sobs from her. "Becca?" "I'm sorry. It felt so great, and then I thought about telling my Aunt Teresa about how my life is changed, how good I feel in bed with you, having you in my life like this." She shuddered with grief. "She's; she's; I'll never get to talk with her again. She's the one; I could talk to. When mom was stuck on rote doctrine, Aunt Teresa talked to me. Even if she echoed mom's position, she talked to me. Now they're all just gone." Dave held her firmly, letting her cry, letting her know he was there with her. After several minutes of silence, he spoke. "We live in dark times, beloved. For now anyway, happiness comes in bursts, sadness in buckets." He paused to compose himself. "We cling together to weather the storm. Separately, we may all drown." She placed her hand on his, reassuring herself he was there, as she cried herself to sleep. She never noticed his tears falling in her hair. September 28, 2020. Dave opened the door, half-expecting a National Guardsman with a woman to add to his house. He wasn't wrong. The lady in question stood ready, with a bright smile. A telegenic smile. And Dave recognized her after a moment. "Holy crap. You're Shawna Cooper! How the hell did you wind up here?" "Well, according to Oracle, you were my best match at 93%" with that same rich, assuring voice he'd come to appreciate from the TV. "Wow, okay." Dave paused to sign the form. He hadn't paid too much attention the first two times so he scanned the document quickly. He burst out laughing. The soldier grinned. "Yeah, some chairborne ranger had a little fun with that one." Shawna looked at him funny. "Something I should know?" "I'll tell you inside, with the others. They should hear this too." Dave waved as the military truck pulled away, then lead Shawna into the living room. The rest of the house must have heard the door. All three ladies currently bonded to Dave were already in the living room. "Hello" said Shawna, cautiously attempting to engage the other women. "Hey aren't you; " "Shawna Cooper, Senior Meteorologist at WFAA. Although, I may get promoted to Chief Meteorologist soon." A short round of congratulations circulated for the next minute. "Wow, Dave, you're accumulating a real smorgasbord of women. A blonde, a Latina, an Asian woman, and now a black woman." Jan smirked. Dave shook his head and closed his eyes. Shawna chuckled. "If she hadn't said it, I would have." "I'm surrounded by smart alecks." "Each of whom was selected by a computer especially for you." Apparently, the new arrival wasn't giving a holiday on sass. The playful smile on her face was already enchanting Dave's heart. "God help me." "He did David, He sent you us." Lupie punctuated her statement with a quick kiss. The others laughed. "Okay, what was that at the door about the form?" Shawna inquired. "And something about an airborne ranger?" Dave smiled. "No, a chairborne ranger. It's the army version of a desk jockey. Someone that works an army office job, but probably has a bunch of military memorabilia. They think they're a badass, but they've never been in the field without a GP medium and a heater." "You served?" Jan asked. "No, but I had a good friend that was special forces. Taught me a lot." A grey cloud of uncertainty fell across Dave's face. He shook it off. "Anyway, desk jockeys handle the paperwork and sometimes make new forms. All government forms are identified by letters signifying the department that created it, followed by some numbers. The form I have to sign when y'all get dropped off must have been created by an army guy because it's Form DA-6969-R." After a two count, the meaning of the numbers sank in and everyone burst out laughing. "Hmm, now that's giving me ideas" purred Shawna, her eyes slightly hooded. "I try to give each of you some time to get used to me and the house before making that last leap." Lupie piped up, "But we do have precedent for no delay." Becca blushed. "Oh, poor baby," Shawna teased, "did the pretty little blonde jump your bones before you were ready?" "There were some extenuating circumstances, which you will learn in time. I'm sure it will be part of the family story as we go forward. We did know each other before she got vaxxed, so I had some comfort level that she wanted this without the serum effects." "Could I get a quick thumbnail description?" "I'm Dave's next door neighbor." Lupie pointed through the wall towards her house. "Becca was my babysitter," Becca gave a shy smile and a head nod "who was watching Esme, my daughter when the lockdowns hit. We all worked together, staying isolated to get through all this. When the CDC guy came, Becca and I asked Dave to request us. Jan," the lady mentioned waved her hand "was delivered the next morning to Dave's house as we were picked up to get the shot. Something bad happened at the vax center that I don't want to go in to fully at the moment, so Becca was adamant about not waiting when we arrived. Our tender loving man didn't get to be as tender with Becca's first time as he intended." "Sounds like I have a lot to catch up on later." A look of sorrow settled on Shawna. "I'm sorry to ask but where is Esme?" "Oh, she's upstairs reading. We didn't want her down here in case the conversation got a little; risqué." Lupie replied. "She's nine. According to the CDC people, she'll be safe when she reaches eleven. I didn't understand the full explanation, but the important part is she is safe and will remain safe from this thing." "Got it, so no mounting Dave on the couch." "Preferably not." Lupie's Cheshire cat grin matched Shawna's. "Then I think it's time we headed upstairs, tender loving man." In the bedroom, with the door firmly shut, Dave and Shawna stood before each other, gazing at each other's face, eyes roaming across the other's body. "Nervous?" Shawna asked. "Never been with a black woman before?" "My lifetime dance card is a little short, so yeah, still working through the nerves somewhat." Dave temporized. "And no, actually, I've never been with a black woman, but I suspect all the parts work the same." That made her laugh. "See, I can be a smart ass too. Actually, until the last week, I'd never been with a Latina, and Asian woman, or a blonde. Well, not a natural blonde. And I've dated a Latina, but it never went that far." Shawna kissed him. Dave gratefully accepted the interruption of his babbling and joined her. Lips gently merging, pressing. Slowly probing with tongues. Twirling against each other. Mutual tongue stroking turned to suckling on each other's tongue. Hands rubbed backs, pulling insistently. Her soft upper body sandwiched between them. His hands roamed to her sides, then to her bosom. Dave began unbuttoning her blouse. Shawna pulled Dave's t-shirt over his head. "Hmm, nice. Fit without being gross. I like a man that finds balance. Huh." Dave kissed Shawna's neck at the clavicle, suckling and licking. His hands finished with her buttons, he shucked her shirt over her shoulders and she shrugged to drop the shirt off. Cupping her bra-clad bosoms from below, Dave dove into Shawna's cleavage, reveling in the feel of her ample tits surrounding his face. "Yeah baby. Feast on these boobs. You lovin' the size or the taste baby? I'm different than the others in both respects." "Infinite diversity in infinite combination." Dave lifted his head to speak. He brought his hands around to the back to unclasp her lacy orange bra, but couldn't find the mechanism. He pulled his head back from her chest to focus his eyes. Shawna just chuckled as his hands came back to the front, in the center of her bra to release the imprisoned twins. Her hands roamed his back and tousled his hair as he dallied with her chest. With her bra tossed away, Dave took a nipple in his mouth and suckled. Shawna gasped and hummed appreciatively. Her hands moved down his sides, seeking his waist band. She caught hold of his shorts, hooked her fingers beneath them and his boxers, and shoved both to his ankles. One hand grasped his shaft, the other massaged his testicles. Dave groaned from the stimulation of her efforts. "Yeah baby, that's it. You and me, we're gonna give each other a lot of happy." Shawna cooed into his ear before nibbling on it. Dave switched his attention to the other nipple. One hand teased the wet nipple, while the other dropped to the waist band of her slacks. One handed, he unbuckled her belt and unsnapped her pants. He worked the zipper a few inches down one handed also, until they loosened. Then he tugged downward, revealing her lacy orange panties. Dave caught her under the curve of her rump in both hands and lifted her to his body. Shawna squeaked and then hummed her approval as he continued to nibble her neck. She wrapped her legs around his waist. In two steps, he had them at the edge of the bed. Dave crawled onto his knees on the bed and brought his hands under her shoulder blades before lowering their torsos to the bed. Dave hooked his fingers through the thigh straps of Shawna's panties and slipped them from her. Her naked essence now exposed, Dave brought his face to her core and inhaled deeply, reveling in the scent of an aroused woman. He pressed in, his lips and tongue investigating his new partner, caressing her most intimate area. "Hmm, baby that feels so nice, but I need you in me." Shawna tugged at Dave's head. "Dock that thing in the shuttle bay captain." Dave crawled up over top of her with a huge grin on his face. She was sloppy wet below, so he slid in easily as he moved up her body. They were instinctively in sync so that they aligned themselves without discussion or fumbling. Dave was aroused as well, of course, to the point he already had a few beads of precum at the tip of his cock. As he entered, Shawna's body stiffened, then shook. She let out a loud groan as all the air left her lungs. Dave held her until the shaking stopped. "Damn," she said when she caught her breath, "they weren't lyin'." Hunger dominated her features as a wicked smile spread over her face. She rolled them, still connected, taking the top spot. "Ride 'em cowgirl." Shawna laughed as she began rolling her hips, her body writhing sinuously with the motion. Her bounteous tits swayed rhythmically, hypnotically. Dave grasped them, curling his torso up to bring his mouth to her pec pillows and feasted greedily upon the supple flesh. Shawna moaned louder with the attention. Her hips moved faster, beginning to hop an inch or so with each swish of her hips. "Let's kick this to Warp 10 baby." Shawna braced her hands on Dave's shoulders, pushing him flat to the mattress. Using him as an anchor, she began lifting and lowering herself along his rod, riding him hard and fast. Immediately her vocalizations were louder, more primal. Dave could feel the tremors rising in her body just as his own arousal raced to the peak. Dave held off for several minutes before letting loose. As she received his load, Shawna's body shook like she had gripped a live electrical wire. Her torso collapsed on to him like a marionette with the strings cut. Dave heard her chant "Imprinting;” twice before the room started to spin and everything went black. September 29, 2020. When Dave awoke, he was alone in bed. For a moment, by the light level, he thought it had only been a few hours. Then he noticed the angle of the shadows and realized it wasn't later that afternoon, it was several hours past the following daybreak. On the plus side, he felt great. And,; something was wrong. He couldn't place it. No, was something right? It'd be easier to concentrate if Esme's giggles from the kitchen weren't punctuating his thoughts. He couldn't hear any words, but the background sounds sure made it seem like she was helping someone in the kitchen. What? How the hell could he hear them that far away? He hadn't heard that well since his early twenties. And Where The Hell Was His Tinnitus? Ho-lee shit. The high-pitched whine that filled his days and haunted his nights was gone. Shit, now it would be easier to hear women and kids again. Dave barely remembered to throw on shorts and a shirt before sprinting downstairs. He picked up Esme and spun her around. "I hear you! I hear you! All the way up in the bedroom and I could hear you!" He hugged her close. She giggled, once she realized he wasn't mad. Dave set her down and gave her a big kiss on her forehead. "You are officially my favorite stepdaughter." This apple didn't fall far from the tree. She narrowed her eyes and grinned. "I'm un-officially your only stepdaughter." "Still my favorite." He said, his voice receding with him. Dave went upstairs to his office. He had a Zoom call to make that he'd been putting off. "Hi, Uncle Dave." The deep brown eyes, framed by pale skin and equally brown hair of Olivia Barnes stared back at Dave from the screen. Her father's hawkish features softened by the influence of her mother's rounder ones. Except the skin around her eyes was reddened, and somewhat puffy. Dave feared he knew why his goddaughter had been crying. It had been more than a month since he'd heard from his best friends, Carter and Janelle Barnes. "Hey Livy Bean." Maybe his longtime nickname for her would be comforting, of a sort. She did brighten slightly. Like a slightly less dim twilight. "Sorry I haven't called in a while. Things have been changing a bit around here." "Oh, that's fine." She couldn't have sounded more like Eeyore if she tried. "I just; " Olivia was cut short by the playful screech of Esme rocketing into the room, obviously being pursued. She hid behind Dave's chair as Becca entered. "Hey, you two, settle down, I'm on a Zoom call." "Oh, sorry." Both said. "Dave?! What the hell are people doing in your house! Why aren't you quarantining!?" "Yeah, that's part of the busy." Dave looked to Becca and Esme, starting to leave. "Don't go just yet. I should introduce you. Liv, this is Esme, she's the daughter of Lupie, my next door neighbor. Becca was Esme's babysitter doing a long-term babysit when the lockdowns started. We quarantined in separate houses, but worked together to make sure we each had what we needed." They each waved as their names were mentioned. "I recognize the names from earlier conversations. So how are they in your house now Dave?" Energized by questions that needed answering, Olivia strangely seemed more alert than at the beginning of the call. Dave shooed Esme out, Becca following after her and shutting the door. "About two weeks ago now, a guy came to my door, telling me they had a vaccine for this virus. But it has some weird effects." "What kind of weird effects?" Olivia's redheaded roommate Melanie Ustanich popped her head into view. "Well, they can't give the vaccine to men at all. At least not directly." This is not the way he had intended this conversation to go, but here they were. "Women can take the vaccine, and then; transmit the immunity to a man." "How?" Melanie asked with a scowl. "Oh boy. That's were this gets surreal." Dave temporized. "Giving the vaccine directly to a man is 100% fatal. But, a woman can share her immunity with a man directly, through, um,; intercourse." "Okay, I'm calling bullshit." Melanie huffed out of frame. By her footstep sounds, she left the room Olivia was transmitting from. "That's crazy Uncle Dave." "Yeah, that's what I said. But then I red all the documentation, I took the survey. And I have four partners." "Four?" "The effects of the vaccine only partially transmit to the man, and have to be reinforced by frequent; contact. In order to keep a man; safe; he should have multiple partners." Dave winced. "Last I heard, the ultimate goal is twelve to fifteen women per man. And it's permanent. Once a woman gets the vaccine and; sleeps with a man, sleeping with any other man would be dangerous, even fatal." Dave paused while Olivia absorbed what he'd just said. "It's for a lifetime, Liv. Look, if you know someone you think you can make it work long-term with, you should find him and talk to him. The people doing the vaccination should be getting out to Stephenville in another week or so. Maybe you can find someone suitable by then." Dave squirmed in his seat. "I don't have to look anywhere Dave. I know who I'd want to bond with for the rest of my life. The same man I've yearned for; for years." "Good, you should call him immediately. And tell your roommate to think about who she'd want to partner with. And she might want to consider the same guy." With a small smirk Liv replied. "Not a bad idea. This guy likes redheads. But he has a blind spot though. Has trouble noticing when women like him. Especially younger women. He keeps passing it off as infatuation. 'Just a crush'." "Well maybe you need to; " Dave stopped with his mouth hanging open, frozen. He had to remind himself to blink. "Dave, you ok? Do I need to turn you off, then turn you back on?" The sarcasm snapped him out of it. "Very funny Liv." He gathered his thoughts, or tried to. They kept scattering like cats at bath time. "I'm more than twice your age Olivia. I changed your diapers for god's sake! I helped raise you. You came to me when you were afraid to talk to your parents. Biologically it's not incest, but damn." "It's not the same David! Please; " a knock at the door interrupted them. Shawna slipped in. "Is everything okay in here?" She brought herself into the camera's field of view. "Uh, hi. I'm Olivia, David's goddaughter. Who are you?" "I'm his newest partner. I just imprinted yesterday." Shawna settled gently on Dave's thigh, keeping part of her weight on her feet. "Imprinted?" "That's what they call the binding process that happens when the vaccine serum mixes with a man's semen inside a woman's body." "Huh." Olivia looked pensive. Melanie had come back into view. Presumably, she'd been in hearing range for a minute or so. Olivia squinted at the screen, as if trying to pick out an important detail. "Anyone ever tell you that you look like the weather lady on channel 8?" "It's been known to happen." Shawna said coyly. "You may have noticed I wasn't on the air last night. And I won't be for two more nights. Vaccination leave. Some places give longer, but there's only so much staff at the station these days. I couldn't drop that much load on the rest of the weather room staff." "Oh wow. Wow. Just. Okay. This is a lot all at once." Behind Olivia, Melanie typed furiously on her phone. When the site she searched for came up she held the phone out, as if beside Olivia's laptop screen, her eyes scanning back and forth between the two. "No fucking way. Your uncle is banging the channel 8 weather chick?" Shawna's eyes narrowed. "I have a master's degree in meteorology. I have five years' experience storm chasing, another four years' experience at NSSL, and six years' experience at the station. I am a scientist as well as a broadcaster. I am not a weather chick. Hell, I have three scientific papers as the PI." Melanie looked cowed. "I'm sorry. I got a little caught up in the moment. You're right that was out of line." She paused. "Wait, you're a detective too? How does that work?" "No," Shawna said with a hand to the bridge of her nose, "PI is principal investigator; it's the polite term on a scientific team for the HMFC; head motherfucker in charge." Dave stroked her thigh, keeping his face blank. He wasn't going to laugh at her phrasing, nor admonish her harshness. "Yeah, now I need to dial it back. Sorry girls." "Don't. It's fine. Kinda funny actually." Melanie's face began receding from its earlier attempt to match her hair color. "I apologize for being brusque, but can we get back to the topic at hand?" Olivia pleaded. "David, have you ever noticed or wondered why all my relationships never lasted longer than three months?" "I just figured they weren't good enough for you." "Well, you're not wrong there. I measured them; all of them; against you and they came up wanting." "I would have thought a better comparison would be your dad. I mean, let's face it, he's a much more manly guy than me." Dave hoped he'd kept the bitter tone out of his voice. No one showed any hint it registered with them. "I never wanted to fuck dad." Olivia stared at him like she could bore holes in the screen. "Damn girl." Shawna chuckled. Melanie turned her head to Liv with her eyes wide. "When I first heard about how babies were really made and what those parts of me were for, I thought about doing that with you. When I started feeling the desire to have sex, you were the one I wanted to be with. All of you said it was just a girlish crush. I tried dating other guys. I threw myself into relationships with, nice guys, good men, but none of them were you." She paused to catch her breath. Her argument was turning into an emotional plea. "I can't give you my virginity David, but I can give you all of me forever." "Olivia, I; I just; " "David, how about you let us girls talk for a bit. After all, she's been an important part of your life for many years. I'm your brand new partner. I'm sure she has some juicy stories to tell." Shawna winked at the screen. Dave nodded and left. Dave spent some time in the greenhouse, tending the plants and 'smelling the green'. A few grow beds had separated at the corner so he repaired them. He checked the time to find it had been almost two hours since he'd left Shawna on the Zoom call with Olivia. He went back in to discover the ladies all gathered in the library. They shooed him out the moment he opened the door. "Yeah, they wouldn't let me in either. I finished my last book and wanted a new one, but they have some important discussion going on, so here I sit, rotting my brain with TV," Esme said, with air quotes for emphasis. "You could always choose a documentary instead of anime." "You could always eat a tofu burger instead of red meat." Esme giggled. "Blasphemy." Dave said, ascending the stairs. That brought a full chuckle from his nine-year old housemate. Dave sat at his computer, working out a reasonable set of instructions for a physics lab students could do from home, with materials they already had. It was maddening to think they'd gotten a sizable grant only two years ago for some great equipment, which would now sit unused in a storeroom because everything was moving online. His focus was broken by Esme's voice. "Hey Dave, they're in the living room waiting for you. I'll be reading in my room." "Thank you, my sweet Esmeralda." Esme rolled her eyes, but accepted the hug. Entering the living room, Dave found all four of his partners smiling, but serious. In just a moment's read of the resolve written there, he knew which way this was going to go. Huh. Maybe he was getting better at this. He chose a seat that could easily view everyone else's and lowered himself. Then he realized, they probably chose their spots so he'd be in this spot. "So, what's up?" Lupie spoke up. "We think you should accept Olivia, David. Her roommate Melanie is interested, and we think you should accept her as well." "I spoke with both of them for about an hour and a half, David." Shawna added. "Olivia's earnest in her feelings for you. I work beside media types, onscreen talent and production executives. I have a good feel for when someone's bs ing me. If Olivia isn't in love with you, she's very close to that. My bet is, she madly in love with you. She'd be unhappy anywhere else." Dave stared at Shawna. That last bit hit home. Olivia's happiness meant a lot to him. He suspected that last sentence was calculated, not just a lucky shot. He swallowed once and looked away. "You don't understand. I've known this girl since before she was born. I changed her diapers. She's stayed over at my house. I helped her understand boys as she got older. I've watched over her while camping or at the pool. Hell, I've seen her in bikinis since the time she started developing tits and I've never allowed myself to think of her in; lascivious terms." "Do you think she's pretty?" Jan prompted. "Absolutely. She's as lovely as her mother." A very quiet ripple ran through the room. Dave realized he'd left an opening for another tale. One he did not want to get into. "And that's just the wrapping paper. She's got a hell of a lot more than her looks going for her." All the ladies grinned. "David, do you hear yourself?" Lupie prodded. "Not just what you've said, but how you say it?" "Yes, she is dear to me. I'd do anything for her." "Then do the one thing she needs you to do right now. Love her as a woman. Allow your love for her to grow to encompass the physical." Dave breathed heavily. A whole host of emotions welled up within him. "I held her in my hands; hand; when she was only a few hours old. I cleaned her boo-boos when she fell off her bike." He chuckled through tears. "You've given her unconditional love her whole life, David. Is it any wonder she fell in love with you?" "I just worry I'd be betraying their trust." "Who?" Shawna asked. "Carter and Janelle. Livy's parents." "So ask them." Shawna suggested. Dave replied with a pained expression. "I haven't heard from them in over a month. And when we started the Zoom call, Olivia's eyes were red and puffy." A sobering silence held the room in its grasp. "David, wouldn't that mean you're all she's got left?" Lupie asked tenderly. "Yes." Dave sighed. Well, he did know walking in how this would go. "Okay. Okay. I'll contact the vax center and see what it takes to put in a request." "And you need to include Melanie, Olivia's roommate in the request." Shawna added. "I know nothing about her." "We took the time to talk. Olivia told her enough about you she said she would be willing." "That's an awfully thin data set for a life altering decision that you can't take back!" Dave objected. "David," Lupie said in her most soothing tone, "when you requested Becca and me, we still got a sheet of information about you, our match percentage in Oracle, and the chance to say no. If we said no, we'd be given a list of ten other men with their data and match percentages." "This is a lot to take in." Dave paused. "You said a bio and a match percentage?" "Yes." "And she can refuse?" "Yes. "Okay. Hell, I like redheads anyway." Dave smirked. "And she's doing something in computers. That could be very handy. And if she can share a small off-campus house with Livy, she's probably reasonably compatible anyway." "So we're resolved on this?" Becca asked. She'd been quiet during most of the conversation, although she nodded in agreement with some of the points made by the other women. "Yes, Becca, I'll request both of them. I'll call them tomorrow to confirm, then I'll call the vax center." "David, when we finished the call today, I made sure to get a clear answer from each of them." Shawna said. "Go ahead and call the vax center first, then call them to let them know the request is in." Dave stared at her for a moment. "On something like this, I want to ask them myself. Hell, there's a chance with a night to think it over, they may have decided this is a bad idea. But I will call them a second time after I call the vax center." Becca "Um, Dave, so, a friend of mine from school has been talking to me." October 3, 2020. When Dave opened the door he was greeted by an enthusiastic "Woof!" and two paws immediately planted on his chest. "Roscoe!" Dave rubbed the large Rottweiler's flanks and dipped his head to kiss Roscoe's forehead, then quickly back to dodge the dog's tongue. "Oh look, you brought Livy and her roommate with you. Good boy." Dave signed the form, thanked the soldier, and led the ladies and Roscoe into the living room where most of the house waited. Roscoe spotted Esme and bolted to her. She let out a squeak, then giggled as he licked her face. "Roscoe, down! Heel!" The happy canine trotted back to sit beside Olivia's feet as she sat on one end of the couch. "He sure is friendly. I thought Rotts are supposed to be mean, like guard dogs." Becca said. "If you train 'em mean, or abuse 'em sure. Or if they are seriously inbred. You treat 'em like family they will love on you like nobody's business. And rip the head off anyone that hurts the family. So, Esme, you play with Roscoe anytime you want. He'll love it. He's great with kids." Lupie grinned appreciatively at Livy's suggestion. She'd clearly understood Livy's implied meaning of acclimating Roscoe to see Esme as family for the purpose of defending her. "Yeah, when we go to the park for walks, it can be a real job to keep him from running and frolicking with the kiddos." Melanie chimed in. "So where's Shawna?" Liv asked. "Work. Her new partner leave was up. She has the five and six o'clock broadcast, so she won't be back until this evening." "And she's the only one Mel and I have met, so to speak." Liv said dryly. Her big toothy grin capturing attention of everyone. "Although, I've heard bits and pieces about Lupie and Esme over the past few years." Olivia introduced herself, telling everyone she had been a junior studying horticulture at Tarleton State University when lockdowns started. She's into shooting and hunting, and lots of outdoor activities. Becca looked pensive. "Oh, but don't worry," Liv assured her, "I'm usually down for group games and such. I take it your more of an indoor person?" "Mostly. I mean, I like going to the pool, and sometimes the park." Becca's spoke in soft tones. "Great. You show me some games you like, and I'll show you how fun hiking and camping can be. Maybe even teach you how to shoot." "You can do that? I mean, teach me?" "Liv manages to hit the target once in a while." Dave chuckled. "Hey, I'm a better shot than you! I've taken a deer, first shot, every season I've gone out." "I was teasing Liv." Dave temporized. "I'm still working to wrap my head around; this." "Well for me this is the realization of a dream I couldn't let go of and didn't think I'd get." The room fell quiet for a moment. "Oh, one thing about Roscoe, I almost forgot. He has some hearing loss. He's still got some hearing and a great sense of smell, so he won't get jittery when surprised as long as there aren't any unfamiliar scents." "So give him time to sniff us and adjust for a few days before walking up behind him?" Jan smiled. "Sure. That would work. And if he does get spooked, just hold still and let him sniff. By the end of today, he might not register everyone here as family, but he will understand you're all accepted by Dave and me." Another moment of quiet, and all eyes turned to Melanie. "Oh, hi. I'm Melanie Ustanich. I'm Olivia's roommate. I was a senior last year at Tarleton. I'm working on a four plus one degree in cybersecurity and network administration." Melanie's green eyes and hair balanced between coopery and auburn accented the face set in a perpetual impish smile to tell of the Irish part of her ancestry. "Four plus one?" Becca asked. "It means I began working on my master's while I was still an undergraduate. Instead of four years for a bachelor's and then two or three years for a master's, I get both done in five years." "Oh cool." "It should have helped me get into the workforce faster with less student loan debt." Melanie rolled her eyes. "I think we're going to find the financial sector changes a lot with what's going on." Lupie supplied. "Hi, I'm Lupie, Dave's neighbor; well used to be. I also used to be an investment advisor until our firm shutdown." "Oh wow. So like stocks and bonds and shit?" Lupie nodded in reply. "Do any day trading?" "Yeah, it's been handy. The market tanked, but if you know what you're doing you can still manage something positive out of it." "Good to know. And thanks about the loan info. That's something I've been worrying about. Not in school means I have to start paying my loans, but I have no job so I can't, and there's no one answering the phone lines to set up a deferment." "I thought President Pelosi suspended all debt payments and interest accrual until Congress could get together and pass something permanent." "I wish." "I'll check into that later today. You shouldn't have to worry about debts in all this mess." "Thank you, that would be a huge relief if true." "So, Tarleton isn't holding any classes?" Jan asked. "Not this semester. They said they might hold some online classes in the spring, but wouldn't commit to it. They emptied the dorms too, but Liv and I had an off-campus apartment and a trickle of income to cover the basics. We still cut into some savings. The landlord was happy to still have some income, so she cut our rent in half since; May? June?" "June." "Yeah, so that helped." Everyone talked a bit about interests, hobbies, and happenings but eventually the suitcases loomed large and we decided it was time to get Olivia and Melanie's things put away in a dresser like they lived here. They each carried their own up the stairs, only using the roller wheels as they got to the upstairs hallway. "What happened here? Why is the wall patched? Dave?" Olivia curious expression evaporated when she looked at Dave. His face twisted in pain. His heart exploded with repressed mourning. "Eddie." That one word, spoken in anguish, struck Olivia like a poleax. She fell towards Dave in faltering steps as he thumped backwards against the wall and slid down, coming to rest in a wailing mess, his precious Livy Bean clinging to him, sobbing her heart out. Janice looked bewildered. Melanie furrowed her brow. "Liv has a friend named Eddie. They even tried dating, but decided to just stay friends. Really good friends." Lupie came flying up the stairs, having heard the heart-rending cry from below. "What happened?" Melanie and Jan both shrugged, trying to catch up still. "We don't know," Janice replied, "Olivia asked why the wall had been patched. Dave looked like his heart was being ripped out and said 'Eddie' and collapsed. Olivia collapsed with him." Lupie's eyes watered and her hand flew to her mouth. "Oh, David." She squatted beside the weeping pair and placed a hand on Dave's shoulder. The other three looked at each other, mildly frustrated. More mourning and no explanation. Lupie glanced up at the confused trio. "Eddie is David's son." Chapter 5: Healing Begins. October 3, 2020. House Belsus was in mourning. Lupie and Jan got an arm under Dave's armpits and lifted him up, guiding him to the bedroom once he got his feet under him. Becca and Melanie did the same for Olivia. Together, the quartet removed the shoes and socks of the weeping pair and draped a blanket over them. Roscoe trailed behind the troupe, whimpering and trying desperately to get in close to Olivia. He planted himself firmly against her in the bed once she was positioned. The pent-up pain manifested itself in force. Edward, Carter, Janelle. Three faces Dave and Livy would never see again. Three laughs they would never hear again. Three hearts they would never touch or be touched by again. It was just too much to hold in any longer. As he wept, Dave could hear a rustling sound off to the side of the room. He knew one of the women of the household was sitting there, ready if he or Livy needed anything. It was one small reassurance as images of a happy little towheaded boy played through his mind. The boy he barely got to see after the divorce. More images of the angry young man, full of his mother's twisted commentary, coming to him, beginning to realize he may have been lied to. That may be the most painful memory. After years of trying to be a dad, and being rebuffed, his boy had sought him out. They'd rebuilt slowly from there, starting on Edward's fifteenth birthday. Eight years. Eight years he'd had with his son as he grew from his mid-teens into a young, twenty-three year old man. A damn good man. And now he was gone. A memory, frozen in time. Forever young, static and unchanging. Never to find love. Never getting to be a father himself. Eddie would have been a great dad. No more Carter either. His friend from college. The man that taught him the value of being prepared. Guided him to take a martial arts class. Taught him how to use a gun. Taken him hunting and fishing. Without that time with Carter, he never would have been able to take Eddie fishing in those early years before his ex began denying visitation. And sweet Janelle. That lovely face seemed so soft. Most would think she'd never keep up with Carter's active outdoorsy life. They were wrong. She would much rather do nearly anything in the city or suburbs, but the guy she'd fallen for was an avid hiker and camper. She took to it with a borrowed passion that never relented. Janelle did everything with so much energy you'd think she could power a city with her smile and peppy personality. She managed to stay just this side of sickening bubbly though. Thanks to his newly healed hearing, Dave picked up the telltale sounds of two people working in the kitchen. Dinner? How long had he lain here, whimpering like a little bitch? It was time to get up. Dave tightened his hug on Olivia briefly, then released her and went to the bathroom to wash up and take care of needs. And wash from the elbows down. Roscoe had taken to nuzzling and licking his hands and arms in an attempt to soothe. When he returned, Lupie sat on the bed speaking soothingly to a quiet Olivia. Roscoe's head briefly turned from Olivia to give Dave a baleful look as he re-entered the room. A quick whisper brought Olivia's head up and around, rolling slightly to see Dave. She sat up and rose shakily to meet him. He hugged her again, and they each steadied themselves to stave off another crying jag. Liv slipped around Dave to enter the bathroom. Lupie met him where he stood. She placed her arms loosely around his neck, bringing their foreheads together. "I love you, David. I wish you had shared this with me earlier, but I understand why it hurt too much to address." She kissed him softly on the chin, then looked into his eyes. "I'm here for you David. Even if all you can handle is a hug, I'm here for you." She hugged him tightly. Olivia emerged, her face cleansed of tear streaks and make up. She chose not to apply new makeup. Why bother when she's liable to start crying again? Her loose black blouse and the large ruffle attached to the neck showed creases and wrinkles from lying in bed. Her work-style jeans showed no such effects, having been made to take more punishment than lying in bed could dish out. As they passed Esme's room enroute to the stairs, they heard a shout of "Dave!" just before 80 pounds of love bug smacked into the man so named and wrapped her arms around him tightly. Esme had met Eddie a few times, had a few memories of him. More than that, she wanted to console Dave in his grief. He was a figure in her young life and he was hurting. The outpouring was almost enough to set Dave off crying again, but he choked it back. Lupie gave Esme a short time to show her support, then shooed her back to her room with a hug and a kiss. "Did you get something to eat mija?" "Yes, mama. And I have a few good books in my room. I'm good for awhile." The trio continued to the stairs and emerged into the living room. Becca sat on the couch fidgeting, not really watching an anime. When she looked up, she immediately rushed to Dave and hugged him fiercely. Their height difference left her cheek bone pressed against the top of his sternum, the top of her head nestled under his chin. Dave stroked her back softly. "All those times you comforted me about my family, and you never once mentioned Eddie was gone?" She said as she pulled her head back, looking up into his eyes. Her arms remained firmly encircled around his chest, not budging a millimeter. "If I wasn't hurting for you so much, I'd be peeved at you." "Wow, didn't take you long to start talking like a wife." "Better believe it buster." "Yes dear." Her eyes laughed as she pulled him down for a comforting kiss. Their eyes stayed locked for a moment after they broke the kiss. Shawna, Janice, and Melanie slipped in from the dining room after each dropped off an item from the kitchen. Shawna still wore her on-air clothes. Today it was a stylish, breezy blouse in a vibrant shade of orange that contrasted beautifully with her dark skin. A long, loose, tan skirt below it reached to mid-calf at its lowest point, the bottom cut at an angle that exposed her right knee when she walked. She typically wore short heels at work, but had already ditched them somewhere downstairs, her feet bare but for her sheer pantyhose. Without her heels, she was barely an inch shorter than Dave, the tallest among his household. She came straight to him and wrapped him up in a warm hug. In his ear she whispered, "Anytime you need me baby, whatever it is you need, just tell me." Dave nodded and she peeled away. Jan came to him next, gently leading Mel along with her. Jan gave him a chaste kiss on the cheek, her eyes conveying her sorrow and support as eloquently as words or a hug. "I knew you may not be hungry David, but if you are so inclined, I asked Mel to make bruschetta for the grazing meal we've prepared." A week or so ago, Jan's culinary journey had turned to a discussion of favorite appetizers and finger foods. Dave's number one favorite was bruschetta. "Hey now, I just made the olive tapenade and the tomato topping, you assembled it, including toasting the bread." Melanie took Dave by the hand and led him to the table decked out with several offerings, from of course, bruschetta, to deviled eggs, pigs in blankets, and a charcuterie board assembled from things Dave knew they'd had on hand this morning. Except for the bowl of fresh rolls beside it. The aroma of fresh bread permeated the air. "It looks and smells wonderful. Thank you." He gave them each a soft kiss on the cheek. He stepped back to the living room. "Shawna, I take it you are also partly to thank for tonight's spread?" "Oh, they were well along in the making when I got in from work. I just slapped some canned dough around some smokies and baked 'em." He kissed the top of her head and hugged her from behind as she sat in one of the soft chairs. "Thank you." She patted his arm lightly before he pulled away. Not hungry, but wanting to show appreciation for Jan's thoughtfulness, Dave went back to the table and snagged a piece of bruschetta before returning to the living room. The only empty spot was on the couch, with Becca on one side, Olivia on the other and Mel between the arm and Olivia. Dave settled in before taking a bite. "Oh, wow. This is great ladies." Dave said after savoring for a moment. "And Jan, before you try to turn all of it aside to Mel, proper presentation is important. Besides, the toast is perfect. Just the right amount of olive oil, nicely crisp with just a little give. Those are important parts of getting bruschetta right. And; I really appreciate the thought and the effort." "Thank you," Jan beamed. The others took turns getting plates in pairs while everyone engaged in chit chat. To be continued in part 4, Based on a post by RonanJWilkerson, in 12 parts, for Literotica.

In this episode, Katherine Forrest and Scott Caravello return to their discussion of interactive deepfakes, highlighting state-of-the-art detection tools and techniques. From research frameworks such as the “GOTCHA” challenge and “active probing” via corneal reflections to commercial tools that can be integrated into popular video conferencing apps, they debrief the evolving tech landscape for spotting deepfakes. ## Learn More About Paul, Weiss's Artificial Intelligence practice: https://www.paulweiss.com/industries/artificial-intelligence

Pining for Madison: Part 5 Day 2 at the Cabin. By Secretauthor2021, in 5 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Explicit Novels. I was just about to confide to him about mine and Madison's exploits, when both girls joined us at the same time, wearing their oversized t-shirts as nighties. "Good morning, ladies. Coffee?" I greeted. "Oh, yes please," Becky replied. She walked over to Ryan, put her hand on his back, and gave him a quick peck on the lips. "Morning, babe," Ryan greeted. As I got up to the kitchen counter, Madison came up behind me, wrapped her arms around my waist, and rested her cheek against my back. "Coffee, babe?" I asked again. "Yes please," she replied and kissed me on the shoulder. Both girls then pulled a chair out from under the table and sat opposite each other. I grabbed two more cups from the cupboard and poured them each a coffee and placed it in front of them. "Thanks Ad," they replied in turn. I sat down and joined them all at the table. "So, is every one raring to go this morning?" I asked. "Ugh! I forgot you were a morning person. Need coffee first, enthusiasm later," Becky groaned into her cup. "What's a matter Beck's, did somebody keep you up last night?" I joked, looking over to Ryan and smiling into my cup. "You're one to talk, I saw what you did to Madison's chest last night. Trying to write your name were you?" I spat a mouthful of coffee back into my cup and started to laugh uncontrollably. Before Madison and Ryan joined me in laughing. After I calmed down I got up and emptied the remaining contents of my cup in the sink. I headed over to the patio doors and pulled apart the heavy curtains. "Oh wow!" I said loudly. "What?" a Madison replied. "Come and have a look at this." I opened the patio doors and stepped outside. The other three grabbed their coffee cups and joined me outside. In front of us was a magnificent view of a lake, with a wooden dock extending outwards from the cabin. I walked further ahead and could see two pairs of kayaks on either side of the dock. As I turned around to face the others, I could feel the chill of the morning air, causing the skin on my chest and arms to get goosebumps. It appeared I wasn't the only one affected by this, both Becky and Madison's nipples had hardened under their t-shirts. "Shall we go kayaking?" I asked, trying not to stare at their chests. "I'm in," Ryan replied. "And is that what I think it is?" I said aloud, before the girls had a chance to answer. I hurried over to a large box to the side of Madison and fingered the edge, before lifting up the huge lid. "We have a hot tub!" Madison cried out. "Now we're talking." Becky added. I found the control box and switched it on, and it roared into life. "It'll probably take a while to heat up though," I said. "It's okay, we can use it later tonight," Madison replied. I lowered the lid back down to keep the heat in. "So, showers and explore the lake?" I suggested as a plan of action. We all collectively agreed and went back inside. After one more round of coffees, we got up from the table, everyone appeared to be feeling a lot more perkier now. "Who's having the first shower?" Becky asked. "I don't mind, I'll probably share one with Adam, if it's quicker." Madison answered. "Oh yeah, three guesses what you'll be cleaning." Becky joked. "Girl, please! You'll probably be using Ryan's cock as a toothbrush knowing you." Madison replied, then proceeding to simulate the actions. We collectively laughed at Madison's visuals. "Touch Mads! Touch ." Becky responded, with a wide smile on her face. Ryan and I just looked at each other and smiled at the prospect of some shower hi-jinx. I eagerly grabbed Madison's hand. "Come on then, show me your cleaning techniques then, babe." We left Becky and Ryan in the kitchen and went to get ready for the shower. A few moments later, we returned with our towels wrapped around us and headed towards the bathroom. Becky wolf whistled as we walked past. Madison jokingly flipped Becky the bird and they both laughed. When we got to the bathroom, I closed the door behind us, and we each hung our towels on the back of the door. Madison slid open the shower door and turned the shower taps on, placing her hand under the spray of water, until it was warm enough to enter. The shower itself wasn't huge but could fit the both of us. It had a tiled seat on one side, which also housed a few toiletries such as shampoo and shower gel. Madison got in first and I followed closely behind her. She took up most of the water, while I hovered on the outskirts, every so often changing places with her. Madison squeezed some of the shower gel on to her hands and asked me to turn around. She began washing my back, her hands moving in circular motions, causing the shower gel to foam up and slowly made her way further down my back, until she reached my buttocks. From there she pressed her body against mine and her hands found their way around my hips and to the front. She held my cock in her hand, delicately washing it and gently pulling my foreskin back and tracing her thumb around the head of my rapidly hardening cock. "Is it clean enough now?" She asked. "Hmm, I think I could do with a few more minutes," I joked. "Oh, so you want the intensive clean then," she replied, turning me around to face her again. She ran her hands over her wet hair moving the stray strands clinging her to her face and dropped to her knees. She jerked me a couple of times, before taking me in her mouth, holding on to my ass for support. I raised my hands and clasped them behind my head, enjoying the sensation. Madison was just getting into the swing of things, when the shower door suddenly slid open. "Busted!" shouted Becky, she pointed her phone at Madison's face and the camera flash lit up the shower. Madison screamed and gestured, but with me still in her mouth. All I could feel was a tingling sensation as the reverberation pleasurably travelled down the length of my cock. "Didn't your mother tell you not to speak with your mouthful, Mads!" Becky said hysterically laughing. Madison clawed for the shower door and slid it back, while Becky ran out of the bathroom with her prize photo. She pulled me out of her mouth, to talk. "Oh, it's on now," she said, quickly wiping the water from her face. I looked down at her and jokingly made a puppy whining noise, because she stopped. "Sorry babe, where was I?" She took me in her mouth again and continued. I could steadily feel the pleasure growing and myself getting closer and closer to climax, when Madison stopped with her mouth and switched to her hand and jerked me, every so often rubbing the tip of my cock around her wet nipples. "Fuck, that feels good, Mad," I moaned out. "Yeah, you like that, babe?" She squeezed tighter and jerked faster and unable to hold back anymore, I shot my load across her chest and watched as the water washed it away between her breasts and down her stomach I offered my hand, helping her to her feet. When she rose, I quickly moved in to kiss her, slipping my tongue into her mouth. As we sensuously kissed she grabbed one of my hands, and slowly turned her body around, breaking the kiss. She raised a leg on to the tiled seat and directed the hand she was still holding between her legs and leaning her head back on to my chest. "I think I need a bit of attention now," she whispered. I rubbed my fingers over her wet mound, and she moaned softly. The steam from the shower filled the room and clung to our skin, causing Madison's skin to appear shiny in the light. I diligently worked her clit with my fingers, rubbing, circling, flicking and every so often slipping my finger inside of her. Her heavy exhales causing the steam to swirl around above us. I stopped, much to Madison's surprise. "Aww, Babe, don't stop, I was nearly there," she whispered in my ear. "I know, but I want to try something. Try sitting down." I instructed. She sat down facing me and I dropped to my knees, I pried her legs apart, so they were wide open and I buried my face between her legs. "Oh Jesus," she cried out as I began to attack her clit with my tongue. She ran both her hands through my wet hair and clutched at it, pulling me deeper in to her. "Umm, that's the spot, babe, right there," she directed. "Oh, oh, yeah, Umm!" She was pulling my head in to her so tightly, I could barely breathe. I knew I had to get her to orgasm quickly otherwise I'd surely pass out. I upped my tempo and began lashing my tongue so quickly it hurt. Madison's legs clamped around my head tightly, she practically rode my face as she approached her orgasm. I could only hear muffled screams as her hands desperately clutched at the walls, her fingers splayed wide as she came. Her legs slowly loosened and my face was free. I immediately pulled back, and took in a sharp intake of air. My lips, chin and jaw all sore from the work out. Madison looked at my reddened face and cupped it with her hands. "I'm so sorry if I squeezed too tightly, babe, but you were just too damn good at that, I couldn't help myself." I grabbed on to her knee and lifted myself up and ran my face under the water. We finished cleaning up and turned off the shower. I stepped out first and grabbed my towel from the door and patted myself dry, before wrapping it around my waist. I then passed Madison her towel. She wrapped it around her body and tucked it in at her chest. I opened the bathroom door and we both left to head to the bedroom to get dressed. Becky was sitting on the sofa with Ryan, with both of them looking at her phone. "You better not be showing Ryan that picture you took, missy!" "Too late," she replied. "Let me see it," Madison demanded. Becky turned her phone and waved it around, toying with Madison. A picture of Madison on her knees, with her mouth full of my cock, and exposing the side of her breast, with just a hint of her nipple filled the screen. "You better delete that, right now!" Madison playfully insisted. "Aww, but I was going to make it my new lock screen." Becky joked. "Don't you mean cock screen." Ryan quipped. I snorted with laughter at Ryan's joke. "Give it here," Madison begged. "No way," Becky replied, holding the phone out of reach and teasing her. Madison leaned forward trying to get the phone and fell on top of Becky and Ryan. They were laughing hysterically as Madison tried to clamber over them both to reach the phone. I stood there watching this ludicrous display unfold in front of me, when I noticed that her towel was shifting around quite a bit. It was then the inevitable happened. As she tried to pull herself up, her towel opened and she ended up flashing her breasts at Becky and Ryan. Ryan's eyes widened as he caught a glimpse of her perfect pair. Madison grasped at her towel to cover herself up, before giving up on retrieving the phone and composing herself. "Ahem, sorry about that, Ryan. I didn't mean to give you an eyeful there," she said apologizing. "I... I didn't mind." Becky nudged his arm. "As for you Miss Becky Moore, I hope you know, I'll be getting my revenge on you. I don't know how yet, but it's coming," Madison said trying to keep a straight face. "Come Adam, we have revenge to plot!" Madison announced over-dramatically. She grabbed my arm and theatrically we stormed off to our bedroom. As we finished getting dressed, Becky and Ryan slipped into the shower. I could see Madison plotting of ways to get back at Becky. I plonked myself down on the sofa and watched as Madison snuck over to the bathroom. She tried the door, but this time it was locked. Becky clearly saw this coming. "Damn it!" Madison yelled and then joined me on the sofa. "Come on now Mads, she could see that coming a mile away. You've got to play the long game. Her guard is going to be up now," I joked. "Yeah, I guess," Madison replied, before picking up an old magazine from the coffee table and opening it. She quietly red through each page, licking the tip of her finger and turning the corner of each page she finished. Twenty minutes passed before Becky and Ryan finally emerged from the bathroom, each wearing a towel. Madison looked up from her magazine. "Nice shower?" She asked. "Lovely, thank you." Becky carried on walking, when Madison called out. "Oh, um, Becks', you've got a little spunk on your chin." Madison said all seriously. Becky started wiping at her chin. "Gotcha!" she said with a little smirk and returned to her magazine. "Funny," she called back, before turning to Ryan and asking him. "I don't have anything left on my chin, do I?" "No, it's all clean, babe." He replied, reassuringly brushing her chin with his thumb. I shook my head, laughing to myself. They left the room and when they came back, they were all dressed and ready to go. Madison put her magazine down and we both got up from the sofa. "Right then, shall we hit the lake?" I asked the group. We all ventured outside onto the deck and eyed up the bright orange kayaks on either side of the dock. There were life jackets in each one, so I bent down, kneeling on the wooden boards of the dock and grabbed one from the kayak closest to me and held it up for Madison to put it on. She slipped her arms in, and I fastened the buckles around the front for her. Ryan copied me and did the same for Becky, and we both put our own jackets on. I helped Madison into her kayak and handed her the long blue paddle, before untying the weathered rope that was holding the kayak to the dock. Ryan made sure Becky was sorted and we both hopped into ours. We cleared the dock and drifted for a bit. "Um, guys?" Becky called out, "How do you get this thing to go in a straight line?" We all looked in Becky's direction to see her going around in circles, causing us all to laugh. "Stop laughing you guys," she said, starting to laugh herself. She used her paddle to splash water at us all, in retaliation for laughing, which ended up in a water fight between all of us. When we eventually calmed down from the play fighting, we coached Becky on how to paddle and we all set off. We spent the whole afternoon exploring around the lake, before returning back to the cabin for a well-earned rest. We tied up the kayaks, freshened up and all ate lunch together at the kitchen table. As evening approached, we all stood outside and watched the sun go down, whilst drinking a bottle of beer. As the sky got darker, Madison turned the deck lights on, transforming the ambiance to a warm and inviting glow, casting soft shadows across the deck. Madison stood by the hot tub. "Hot tub anyone?" she asked. "I just remembered, I didn't actually bring any swim wear, Mads," Becky replied. We all looked at each other. "I don't think any of us did, did we?" I added. "Do we need them?" Madison casually replied. We all looked at each other again. "What, like everyone get naked?" Ryan said, hesitantly. "I mean, we're all friends here, right? And it's nothing we haven't seen before?" Ryan looked at Becky as if to take her lead. "Well, I'm game if you are," Becky added. I lifted the lid off the hot tub and the steam plumed up in to the air. "Well, it's definitely warm enough." I said, dipping my hands in the water. "So, are we doing this?" Madison asked again. "Yeah, come on, it'll be a laugh," Becky replied. Madison, who was wearing one of her summer dresses was the first to make a move. Grabbing the hem of her dress, she pulled it over her head to reveal her matching bra and panties. "Come on you lot. I'm not doing this on my own." She said, as we all watched her continue to undress. Becky was next, then Ryan and I took off our t-shirts. Madison was ahead of us and took off her bra and panties. I could see Ryan's eyes scanning Madison' naked body. Together, the girls were quickest to get naked and left two piles of clothes on the deck and climbed into the hot tub. "Umm!" Madison said, sinking her body into the warm water. "Well, come on then you two," Becky coaxed. "It's not like we haven't seen your tinkles before," she joked, wiggling her index finger like a worm. Of course it was true, Becky had seen enough of me naked during our threesome after all, but I wasn't too sure if Ryan knew that already. I pulled my shorts and underwear off in one go, exposing myself to the girls and climbed in. With the three of us in, we all waited for Ryan to join us. "Fuck it," he said and pulled down his shorts and underwear. While I was grower, Ryan was definitely a shower, his long cock dangled between his legs as he climbed into the hot tub. I could see both girls immediately fix on it as he climbed in. With us all settled in to the relaxing warm water, we passed the time talking, every so often, sending one person out to get more beer from the fridge. "I know, we should play a game," Becky suggested. "A game? like what?" I asked. "How about truth or dare!" she suggested. "Come on, that's a kid's game," I replied. "What if we make it a little more adult and anything goes, we'll call it Truth or Dare: Hot tub edition," Madison jokingly suggested. We all looked at Madison, intrigued by her suggestion. "Well, I like the sound of this. Boys?" Becky added. "Okay. We're in," I said, speaking for Ryan. "Okay, okay. Who wants to go first?" Becky asked. "Shall we go clockwise from me?" Madison suggested. "Okay, so I'll answer first," Becky confirmed. "Okay Beck's, truth or dare?" "Um, truth." Madison pondered what to ask her. "Which do you prefer, giving or receiving?" "That's easy - giving," she quickly replied, smiling and looking at Ryan and comically pumping her eyebrows. It was Becky's turn to ask the question now. "Ryan, truth or dare?" "Dare please, babe." She looked at Ryan and then back at Madison. "I dare you... to kiss Madison." The dare looked to have stunned Ryan. He looked at Madison first and then to me, as if to ask the question are you okay with this. I shrugged my shoulders nonchalantly. "A dares a dare, dude." I said. Ryan leaned forward from his seat, with Madison moving to do the same. Their head's turned slightly and they locked lips. Ryan's hands hovered over her body, almost as if he was afraid to touch her. They made out for about twenty seconds before sitting back down again. After watching them kiss, I found myself with the answer to a question I had asked myself when I had the threesome with Becky and Madison. How would I feel if the roles were reversed and another man fucked Madison? Honestly, I don't think I'd mind, it was kind of a turn on. I think after watching Becky and Ryan going at it yesterday, I kinda think I like to watch. "Okay, babe. Your turn to ask Adam." "Truth or dare, Ad?" Ryan asked. "Let's go for truth." "Which of Madison's holes do you enjoy the most?" He asked grinning. Becky burst out laughing at the question and Madison stared at me smiling. "Well?" Madison replied. "I mean I love them all," I replied carefully. "Come on, pick one," Becky goaded. "Um, um, her cunt." Becky and Ryan clapped and Madison's cheeks turned red. "Okay, babe. Truth or dare?" I asked. "Dare please." "I dare you to make out with Becky and this time make it spicy." The girls looked at each other and then smiled at us boys. "Okay, you want spicy, do you? We'll give you spicy, right Beck's." "Hell yeah!" Becky replied completely up for it. The girls stood up from their seats and moved to the middle of the hot tub. With their legs slightly bent at the knee, they kind of slotted their bodies together. Madison grabbed the side of Becky's face and went in for the kiss. Becky's hand meanwhile slid down Madison's body and on to her ass. Ryan and I were practically hypnotized by the show they were putting on. Just as they finished kissing Madison moved on to Becky's right breast kissed it and circled her nipple with her tongue, all the while staring at Ryan and I, and running her hand down her stomach and covering her mound. "Was that spicy enough for you boys?" Madison asked. Ryan and I both enthusiastically nodded our heads in unison and the girls laughed. "Men are so easy to please," Madison said to an agreeing Becky. "Right Beck's, truth or dare?" "Dare please, Mads." "I dare you... to suck my boyfriend's cock." Madison glanced over to me and winked. Becky looked at Ryan this time to gauge his reaction. He didn't seem to object. I stood up, revealing the boner I had just gotten from watching Mads and Becky go at it. Becky stared at my looming cock. "When you say suck, do you mean to completion or just to suck?" Becky turned to ask Madison. "I'll leave that one up to Ad," she replied. Becky turned back to face me. "Um, well I can't exactly drop to my knees, I'll drown," she joked. "I think you're going to have to stand over me while I sit down." I nodded my head and shifted closer. I lifted one of my left leg up so it was resting on the seat next to her and opened my body up to make it easier for her. She leaned forward and without hesitation, she took me in her mouth and proceeded to give me a blow job. As her head bobbed up and down my shaft, I had to think of how I wanted this to end. Do I let her go all the way or do I stop her out of respect for Ryan. I could feel myself getting closer to orgasm, when I begrudgingly tapped Becky on the head. She stopped what she was doing. "It's okay Beck's, you can stop there if you want." She pulled away from me, with one last strand of saliva connecting her face with my cock, before wiping it away. "Wow Ad, that's some strong willpower you've got there," Madison remarked. "Yeah, tell me about it." "I would have gone all the way Ad, if you wanted," Becky added. "Nah, you're good Beck's." I replied. I sat back down, with my raging hard on disappearing under the water, like the periscope of a diving submarine. "Ryan, you're up. Truth or Dare?" "Dare." "I dare you..." Becky started laughing uncontrollably. "I can't say it." "What? Whisper it in my ear." Madison asked. Becky turned to Madison and whispered in her ear. Madison instantly started to laugh as well. The pair of them were now in hysterics. Madison tried to complete the dare on behalf of Becky, who was struggling to talk at this point. "We dare you Ryan, to have a sword fight with Adam." Ryan looked blankly at the girls. "A sword fight? With what?" He asked naively. I leaned over to him. "I think they mean with our cocks." "Seriously!" He blurted out. Both girls nodded their heads. "And make it convincing." Becky added. I stood up first, holding my cock in my hand, when Ryan reluctantly did the same. Turns out he had the same reaction to the girls kissing or to me having my cock sucked by Becky as he was packing a boner as well. With our two erections in hand, I made the first move and swung my cock against his and he retaliated swinging his against mine. We went back and forth. "Have at you, you scoundrel!" I said, getting into the spirit of things. The girls started laughing louder. "Scoundrel... Stop, stop. I can't breathe." Becky cried out in tears from laughing so much. Madison was pretty much in the same state as Becky. We stood down and shook hands at a fight well played. "Okay, okay." Becky struggled to say, trying to calm herself down. "I've just had a naughty idea, how about we take this up a notch." Becky turned to Madison once more and whispered in her ear. I watched as Madison's face reacted to what Becky was telling her. Madison bit her lip and her eyes darted between Ryan and me. They nodded their heads in agreement, before both turning to face us. "Having witnessed such a wonderful display of male bravado just then, how about we turn this into a bit of a competition between you two boys. I think our competitive nature kicked in and we both sat upright and leaned forward to hear Becky's impending proposition. "The competition is... who can get Madison and I off the fastest." She bit the tip of her index finger, waiting for our reaction. Ryan and I looked at each other, and back at the girls. "Adam, you will take care of Madison naturally, and Ryan you're with me," she continued. "The only rule... you can only use one hand." "How do we know if you're cheating, you know faking it for your partner to win and all." I asked. "Hmm, good point. The judges will need to confer." She leaned into Madison and whispered something else in her ear. They both nodded in agreement again. "Okay, slight change of rules. In order to avoid any cheating. Ad, you will swap places with Ryan. Are you both okay with this?" "What, so me and Madison, and you and Adam," Ryan replied. "Yeah," Becky answered. "Well, if you two are okay with that." Ryan said turning to Madison and me. "Yeah, we're cool. I said looking at Madison, who was nodding her head in agreement. "All in favor?" Becky asked the group. She looked at each of us in turn and we nodded our heads in agreement. We all stood up at the same time and I swapped places with Ryan, so that I was facing Becky. "This is so insane," Ryan said smiling. "I told you there would be no unwinding with these two." I replied. Each of the girls stood in the middle and lifted a foot on to their seat. Ryan and I stood next to them, and they placed an arm around each of us for support. With us all in position, Becky asked if we were ready. "Yes!" We all parroted. Our hands hovered over their mounds, water dripping from our finger tips, poised and ready to go. "Ready... Go!" Becky shouted. Mine and Ryan's hands went straight to work, rubbing our respective girls' clits. I slid my finger up and down, every so often looking across to Ryan and Madison. The girls moaned in harmony as we rushed to get them off. It was such a ridiculous game to play, but I'm guessing the combination of the heat of the tub, the alcohol and the copious amounts of flesh on display had made everyone incredibly horny at this point. My erection showed no signs of abating and judging by Ryan's wagging, the same goes for him. I alternated my fingering technique, going clockwise, counter-clockwise, flicking, tickling, softly pinching. Becky's wetness allowing me to easily maneuver, I pushed my middle finger inside of her and used my thumb to massage her clit. I could feel Becky's finger nails dig into my shoulder. She must be close I thought. When I looked over at Madison's face, I recognized the look enough times to know she was close too. Becky was the first to vocalize her orgasm, quickly followed by Madison. We both stopped, allowing the girls time to recover. The girls took deep breaths to compose themselves. "We have a winner," Becky said raising my hand into the air. "I think we were the real winners on that one Beck's. Fuck me that was good," Madison said, her face flushed with color. "Ready for round two, boys?" Becky called out, then slipping back into the water. "Round two?" Ryan said. "Yep, round two." "You're in for treat with this one. Endurance round," she said smiling. "Who can last the longest. Mads and I are going to jack you studs off, the first one to cum loses." "Are we switching back for this one?" I asked. "I think so," Becky replied. I swapped sides with Ryan again and the girls stood up behind us. The girls positioned Ryan and I so that we standing next to each other and aiming our hard cocks outside of the hot tub. They then reached around to grab our cocks. "Madison, would you do the honors." "I would love to Becky. On three, okay." We braced ourselves for what was going to happen next. "One... two... three!" The girls started immediately, their hands sliding up and down our erect shafts. I tried to channel my breathing in order to control the intense sensations running through my cock. "Christ, this is hard going." Madison remarked frantically pumping away. "I know, my arm is killing me." Becky replied laughing. I didn't think I could hold out much longer, this evenings antics were catching up with me now and I needed this release so badly. I looked at Ryan's face to gauge how much longer he could withstand, but he hid it well, simply clenching his jaw. I was desperately trying to hold back, I could feel the chamber was loaded and I tried to hold off from pulling the trigger but it was no good. "Oh Fuck!" I cried out. The cum started to fly out of me, spurting in all directions outside of the hot tub before hitting the deck. A mere five seconds later Ryan grunted and did the same. I watched as he ejaculated, sending four strings of spunk high up into the air. We cried out for the girls to stop, our cocks too sensitive to continue. They loosened their grips and released our cocks, which were bright red from the squeezing. "The winner is... Ryan. Well done, babe." Becky called out and kissed him on the cheek. "Take five everyone." Madison added. We all sat back on our seats again, looking at each other. All of us having experienced an orgasm now. The girls smiled back at us. "Well, that was fun," Becky said, rubbing her sore bicep. "A few more of those sessions and I'll be ripped." "I can't believe we just did that," Ryan said in disbelief. "I mean you girls are something else. All the girls I've known, would never have done all that, not in a million years." "Well, we're not like other girls, are we Mads," Becky replied. "Besides, if we enjoy it and you enjoy it, what's the problem." "Wow, just wow. You girls are so amazing." "We know." The girls replied somewhat smugly. There was no doubt in my mind, these girls were special and Ryan saw it too. "Shall we all go inside now, I'm starting to get all wrinkly," Madison said holding her hand up and looking at her fingers. "Good idea, Mads," Becky agreed. We all stood up one by one, and climbed out of the hot tub, helping the next person out. We shook the water off us as best we good due to the absence of any towels, and went inside leaving a trail of wet footprints behind us. Madison veered off to the bathroom while Becky, Ryan and I stood by the kitchen table, not even making any attempt to cover up our nudity, we were that comfortable with each other now. Madison returned with a bunch of towels and handed them out to everyone. We towel dried and wrapped the towels around us. We were a bit cold, so decided to light the fire to warm us all up again. More beers were drunk, and we settled in for the night, huddled around the stone fireplace. We spent the next few hours talking amongst ourselves and about how much fun we'd had today and really bonding as good friends do, and I found myself getting on really well with Ryan; he seemed to really open up to the group, which is usually difficult when you're the last one to join it. I had my arm around Madison, and Ryan had his around Becky. "Mads, can you help me with something in the kitchen for a sec," Becky asked. "Sure thing," she replied. The girls got up and went to the kitchen, leaving Ryan and I to chat. "So, what did you think of the competition?" I asked Ryan. "It was pretty wild, wasn't it." He replied, taking another sip from his beer bottle. "Yeah, it was. I hope you didn't mind Becky and I, you know..." "No mate, it was fine. Considering what I was doing to your girlfriend, it was only fair." He leaned forward and I mirrored him. "To be honest, it was a bit of turn on," he confided. "I know right. Seeing you get Madison off, was really hot." "On the one hand, I felt conflicted you know, as it felt like I was cheating on Becky and it sort of felt weird getting your girlfriend off in front of you, but everyone seemed really... well, up for it." "I find with these two, it's best to go with the flow." "You sound like you're talking from experience, mate." "Oh yes," I said nodding. "What, you've done other stuff with them?" Ryan asked inquisitively. "One word - threesome." "No fucking way," Ryan replied, slightly raising his voice. "Yeah, but it was before she met you." "Living the dream, dude, what was it like?" "Amazing, as you would imagine." He looked at me, with a hint of admiration. The girls returned from the kitchen, both wearing a sly smile and we quickly ended our chat. They split up and circled around us like two leopards on the hunt. They came from behind us and placed their hands on our chests and bent forward, nuzzling their heads between our shoulder and neck. "So, Mads and I have been talking, and I don't know about you two but we're not quite ready for our little party to end. So, how do you boys feel about taking it into the bedroom?" Ryan and I looked at each other, our smiles widening across our faces. "Judging by those smiles, I'd say that was a yes," Madison said. Madison grabbed my hand, I turned and stood up, climbed over the sofa and jumped down to join Madison, with Becky and Ryan following. We left the living area and headed to the bedrooms. I was about to turn left to go into our bedroom, when Madison grabbed my arm. "Not this time," she said, turning to go into Ryan and Becky's room. Becky was the last one to enter and closed the door behind us. "Consider this the bonus round, boys," Becky said. Madison walked over to one side of the bed, while Becky walked to the other. "And we won't be needing these," Madison quickly added. The girls untucked their towels and seductively opened them, revealing their gorgeous naked bodies and climbed on to the bed. They stood up on their knees and stared at us. "Well?" Becky said. Ryan and I ripped off our towels and hurriedly joined them on the big bed. "The only rule is.., there are no rules," Becky said smiling. I leaned in closer to Madison and we started to kiss, my hands feeling all around her smooth body. Ryan and Becky watched us for a moment, before getting into their own thing. We all moved closer together in the center of the bed, before casually switching partners. Ryan moved onto Madison and they began kissing with Madison grabbing his head and running her fingers through his hair, before sliding her hands over his chest. Becky could see me watching and turned my head to face her, grabbing my hands and planting them on each of her breasts. I kissed her and our tongues went at, giving me instant flashbacks of our first sexual encounter where I took her virginity. I moved my hands from her breasts to between her legs, while she grabbed my cock and jerked me as I rubbed her. Glancing sideways, I could see what Ryan was doing to Madison. He was kissing the side of her neck and then moved on to sucking at her breast, his tongue working her nipple. I reached out my left hand and slid my fingers between Madison s mound and rubbed her as I rubbed Becky, while Ryan worked both of Madison's breasts. Becky tugged at Madison's arm, and she leaned across, kissing her sensuously with her tongue. Our hot naked bodies were all intertwined now. Madison kissing Becky, Ryan playing with Madison's breast and me fingering them both. We then moved our interplay to the next level. Becky fell on to her back and maneuvered to the middle of the bed, offering her whole body to whoever wanted it. Madison was the first to take advantage of her offer and climbed on top of her. Ryan and I just watched, rubbing our cocks as the girls enjoyed some one on one time. Madison moved from Becky's face and down her body, kissing her breasts along the way, down her stomach and straight between her legs. Becky stretched her arms above her head, clearly enjoying Madison going down on her. With Madison bent over with her head between Becky's legs, I used the opportunity to slip my fingers between her legs once more. Ryan, not wanting to be the only one not doing anything moved towards Becky's face. He angled his cock down to Becky's mouth and she started to suck it. Madison felt so wet now, that I decided to go behind her. Knowing what I wanted to do, she spread her knees further apart and pushed the tip of my hardened cock inside her with her finger tips. I started to rock into her slowly, grabbing on to her hips for support. This looked and felt incredible, we were all joined now, moving as one, waves of pleasure coursing through each of us. Madison lifted her head from between Becky's legs, and Ryan moved his saliva coated cock from Becky's mouth to Madison's. She swallowed it with gusto, taking our cocks from both ends, while Becky watched on, playing with herself. It all looked so natural, the way we moved between each other. There was no delay, no hesitation. Whatever you wanted to do there was someone waiting for you to do it. Madison's moans were muffled by the fact her mouth was filled with Ryan's cock. Not wanting to hog us for too long, she pulled Ryan out of her mouth and motioned for me to pull out. Madison moved out of the way and Ryan moved onto his back in her place. Becky sat up and straddled him, pushing him inside of her and sat up right gently riding him, before leaning forward to kiss him. I used this opportunity to get in on the action, as Becky leaned forward, I positioned myself behind her and pushed myself inside of her, so that both Ryan and I were inside her. The noises coming from Becky now were incredible. There was a contrast of sensations, as the top of my cock was feeling the softness of Becky's cunt, while the bottom of my cock was rubbing against the hardness of Ryan's cock. Our movements soon synced as we worked together to pleasure Becky. Suddenly a flash lit up the room. "And we're even!" Madison declared. As we were going at it with Becky, Madison used the opportunity to take a picture of us double penetrating Becky. We looked at the smiling Madison, while continuing to plough Becky, this felt too good to be distracted by the photo. With the photo taken, Madison climbed back on to the bed. I withdrew from Becky and went back to Madison. With me gone, Ryan rolled Becky on to her back, so that he was on top of her now. Madison fell on to her back, and was now lying next to Becky. I positioned myself on top of her, mirroring Ryan. With us all in the missionary position, we approached the big finale. The girls looked up at our red faces as, we thrust faster and faster. The cries of ecstasy now in stereo. Madison wrapped her legs around my hips and lower legs, pushing me deep into her. I couldn't hold on any longer and came inside her as she succumbed to her orgasm, before collapsing on top of her exhausted. Ryan wasn't far behind me and climaxed with Becky. We rolled off the girls so all four of us were lying next to each other in a line. Our chest's heaving and our bodies glistening with sweat. The smell of sex hung in the air. "I can't believe you picked the moment I was sandwiched between these two, to take a picture Madison," Becky said. "I told you, I'd get you back Beck's," Madison replied, wearing a look of satisfaction on her face. "Can I see it?" I asked. Madison reached for her phone on the night stand and passed it to me. I turned it on its side, so the picture filled the screen. "I'm not gonna lie, but this looks hot as fuck." "Yep, that boys, is the look of a girl who is thoroughly enjoying herself, look how I captured the moment her eyes roll back," Madison joked. "And you'd be right, it felt amazing. You should try an Adam and Ryan sandwich, Mads," Becky added. I've passed the phone to Ryan, so he could look. "God, we're like a bunch of porn stars aren't we." "Ha, maybe next time we should tape it." I responded. "That would be one red hot video." "Definitely one for next time, boys," Madison added. "So there will be a next time then?" Ryan asked, with hope in his voice. "Oh yes, definitely," Becky confirmed. "It's got my vote," Madison added. We ended the night all sleeping in the same bed, all naked and huddled together. Just a bunch of good friends having had a good time. This was definitely a trip to remember and another chapter in mine and Madison's ever evolving sex life. While it's hard to imagine anything topping this weekend, something tells me this is just the beginning. Guess I'll have to wait and see what happens next. By Secretauthor2021 for Literotica.

In the 6 AM hour, Larry O’Connor and Patrice Onwuka discussed: OPERATION UPDATE: Meeting Advances Effort to Identify USS Arizona Sailor VETERAN DEPORTATION: Dem Gotcha on Noem Backfires with Facts Where to find more about WMAL's morning show: Follow Podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Audible, and Omny Follow WMAL's "O'Connor and Company" on X: @WMALDC, @LarryOConnor, @JGunlock, @PatricePinkfile, and @HeatherHunterDC Facebook: WMALDC and Larry O'Connor Instagram: WMALDC Website: WMAL.com/OConnor-Company Episode: Friday, December 12, 2025 / 6 AM HourSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Avoiding simple mistakes with the IC-DISC can mean the difference between maximizing tax benefits and leaving money on the table. In this episode of The IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Brian Schwam, National Managing Director of International Tax Services at WTP Advisors, to talk about the most common IC-DISC misconceptions that trip up practitioners and the underutilized opportunities many businesses are missing. Brian walks through the critical timing rules that confuse even experienced CPAs, including the 60-day and 90-day payment requirements that many practitioners misapply. He explains how the reasonable estimate safe harbor actually works and why paying the minimum amount can accidentally cap your commission at twice that figure. We cover the ordering rules for distributions, the often-misunderstood $10 million threshold, and why the transactional calculation method isn't nearly as impossible as people think. Brian also clarifies that IC-DISC dividends are subject to the net investment income tax, despite what some practitioners might believe. The conversation shifts to creative structures most companies never consider. Brian explains how multiple DISCs can fund executive bonuses at qualified dividend rates instead of ordinary income rates, saving both employment taxes and up to 17% in federal tax for recipients. He describes evergreen dividend resolutions that eliminate the stress of year-end cash movements and shared-DISC structures that make the strategy economical for smaller exporters with under $3 million in sales. These approaches work for both flow-through entities and C corporations looking to avoid double taxation. After more than three decades in international tax, Brian brings clarity to a strategy that looks deceptively simple on paper but contains hidden complexity at every turn. This episode delivers practical guidance you can use immediately, whether you're a practitioner helping clients or a business owner evaluating your own structure.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Paying the minimum 50% under the 60-day rule accidentally caps your total IC-DISC commission at twice that amount, limiting flexibility. Companies with export sales over $10 million can still use an IC-DISC—the cap only limits income deferral, not eligibility. Multiple DISCs can fund executive bonuses at qualified dividend rates, saving up to 17% in federal tax versus ordinary income. The transactional calculation method isn't impossible—most companies in 2025 can pull the data needed to maximize their IC-DISC benefit. Evergreen dividend resolutions eliminate 60-day and 90-day payment stress by automatically distributing commission rights on December 31st each year. Shared DISC structures let exporters with under $3 million in sales split compliance costs while each partner keeps their full tax benefit.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Brian Schwam (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-schwam-b6026a3/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance Brian SchwamAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi Brian Welcome to the podcast. Brian: Hi Dave. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Dave: Yeah, my pleasure. So quick intro, Brian is, what's your title with WTP? Brian: National Director of National Managing Director of International Tax Services, which encompasses export incentives as well as more general international tax consulting. Okay, Dave: And that's at WTP advisors? Brian: Correct. Dave: And you and WTP advisors are founding members of the IC-DISC Alliance along with my firm and myself. Brian: That is correct. Dave: And so are you brand new to this international tax business? Did you pick it up last year or something? Brian: That's funny. I don't think I look like I picked it up last year. I've been been full-time international tax since 1992IC, and prior to that I spent a few years as a generalist, which I think makes me a better international tax person, but it's been a few years, been around the block a few times. Dave: Well, I think it makes you better. I always introduce you as the IC-DISC guru. Now that Neil Block has retired, I think you can now take over the mantle of godfather of the IC-DISC, Brian: Right? Or the step godfather. I don't know if anyone can ever replace Neil. He had a lot of knowledge, has a lot of knowledge in this area and a lot of experience, and I'm just kind of flattered to be compared to him. Dave: Well, Neil was, I think my inaugural or second guest, and I think he's only been on the podcast once. So I think you're trumping Neil with this either your second or third visit. Brian: I think it's the third visit. And Neil's retired and joined the Good Life and I'm not, so that's probably why I've beaten them as far as number of appearances. Dave: There you go. Well, today I want to talk about IC-DISC. I want to talk about misconceptions and maybe underutilized opportunities. So the IC-DISC is straightforward as can be cut and dried. Anybody can prepare the return, anybody can do the calculation. Easy peasy. There's nothing to your toe on. Is that accurate? Brian: That's far from accurate. Okay. Strength. Yeah. A lot of practitioners think that is the case, but I've seen more than a handful of IC-DISC returns and IC-DISC calculations done by generalists that definitely have a flare for not knowing what they're doing or not understanding the rules. And for a six page tax return that looks very straightforward. You'd be surprised how many of them are completely incorrect. Dave: Yeah, it's kind of deceiving, right? Because even the instructions for the return are only a handful of pages, right? Like six or eight pages. Brian: And then there's a couple of lists of codes and things that make 'em a little longer. But yeah, there's not much to it. But I mean, initially there are some statutory and regulatory things that have to be done, have to be done the correct way, and the rules are very draconian. If you don't do it the correct way, there's really no way to remedy the fact that you set up, you just deal with the consequences of having a disqualified IC-DISC, which means you've lost your IC-DISC benefits prospectively and you set up a new one or you forego the benefits No in between, really? Dave: Yeah. Brian: So some of these misconceptions that I've run into could lead to a IC-DISC being disqualified. Dave: So what's the first one that comes to mind? Brian: The first one that comes to mind really for me in practice is how does the 60 day rule and the 90 day rule work, this has to do with when do I have to move money to the IC-DISC? And some people don't understand it and they do things that make it not a problem. Other people do things, they don't understand it and it becomes a problem. So the 60 day rule basically says you must fund a reasonable estimate of the IC-DISC commission to the IC-DISC within 60 days after the end of the IC-DISCs year. It sounds very straightforward, but some people ignore that rule and some think they have to pay it all before the end of the year, but they don't have a 60 day window after the end of the year to accrue that IC-DISC commission and pay a portion of it. The other thing I see people do with the 60 day rules, they don't have all the information. They estimate a number. They say, oh, let's say the commission's going to be a thousand dollars and they pay $500 to the IC-DISC by the end of the 60th day. Well, what have they just done? Well, the 60 day rule says, yeah, you have to pay a reasonable estimate in the regulation. There's a safe harbor that says a reasonable estimate is at least 50% of the final IC-DISC commission. So by moving the least amount of money possible, they then limit their potential IC-DISC commission to two times that number. So rather than saying, oh, I think my IC-DISC commission's going to be a thousand and I'll pay 800 so that I have flexibility to go up to 1,600, they pay 500 and it can never be more than a thousand because there's a lot of information that's going to come out after the end of the year that's going to affect taxable income. And they generally don't know those things within the first 60 days after year. Dave: And what about for, I think this is for accrual basis taxpayers or accrual basis related suppliers. What about if it's a cash basis related supplier? Brian: Well, if it's a cash basis related supplier, now we're outside the DIS rules, but we're in the tax accounting. And in order to get a deduction, the payment does need to be made before the end of the year. If the payment is made after the end of the year, within that 60 day window, you've now pushed the deduction to the subsequent year, which really most people wouldn't be happy with. They want the production in the year that the exports arise, not in the subsequent year. So the other rule having to do with the moving of the cash is the 90 day rule, which says that you have to pay the IC-DISC any remaining commission within 90 days after the commission has been finalized. Well, finalized really means when did I file my IC-DISC return? And so it's an original return. It can be filed as late as eight and a half months after the end of the year. So you really have 11 and a half months from the end of the year to pay the remaining amount. So if we assume calendar year, that's a September 15th filing and a December 15th funding deadline for the remaining commission. I see a lot of practitioners out there that think the 90 days ends on the filing of the IC-DISC return, not starts on the filing of the IC-DISC return. So then they rush to pay that money and then they think they have a problem if they haven't paid it by the time they file. So I mean, there's no harm in paying it early, but that's not how the rule works. And then if someone's determining and amending a IC-DISC return and they owe more funds to the IC-DISC, they have 90 days. So when they file that IC-DISC return, amended IC-DISC return to make that extra payment to the, now, the other misconception is, well, what happens if my 60 day payment was greater than the final commission? I overestimated. So then the 90 day rule says if the IC-DISC received too much under the 60 day rule, it has 90 days that same 90 day window to pay back the overage back to the related supporter. So most people don't understand those rules and they do things that either potentially cause a problem or they create a lot of self-induced anxiety. They think they have to do something sooner than they have to do it. Dave: And speaking of the due date, if somebody wants to file their IC-DISC return in September, do they have to file an extension like to do their corporate return by March 15th? Brian: Nope. That is no, eight and a half months is the due date. There's no extension for a IC-DISC return. That is just the due date. Dave: And then what about if somebody wants to electronically file the IC-DISC return? How does that work? It doesn't. Okay. Brian: And why is that? Dave: Can't you electronically file Brian: Everything? Unfortunately not the IC-DISC, the 1120 IC IC-DISC is still a return that requires a paper filing. And sometimes clients don't realize that and they forget to file. And the good news is there's only a hundred dollars penalty for a late filing. But the bad news is if you keep continually don't file the IRS could. They could terminate your IC-DISC election. But yeah, there's no electronic filing. And then there's, there's another form. You also can't electronically file that relates to the IC-DISC, that it's the form 84 0 4, which relates to an interest charge that a taxpayer who owns a IC-DISC may have to pay if income is deferred to the IC-DISC and not distributed out as a qualified dividend to that shareholder. There's a lot of misconception around that form. And the first misconception is sometimes they think the IC-DISC needs to file that form and pay the interest. That is not true. That is not true. And so many times I'm asked to file that and I'm like, I can't file it. I can't prepare it. I don't know the information that goes on. And it's based on the shareholder or the disk. And if the shareholder is S corporation or a partnership, it's not based on that entity, it's based on its shareholders or partners. And there could be multiple 84 oh fours filed. And then oftentimes there's a surprise like, oh, I have to pay interest. I didn't know I had to pay interest. Well, it is called an IC IC-DISC, and the IC stands for interest charge. So that should not come as a surprise, but it often does. Dave: Okay. Wow, Brian: Go ahead. Yeah, so we're still on moving cash around. So there's also timing of when the shareholder of a picks up dividend income. So a lot of people think that if they pay the IC-DISC within that 60 day window after the end of the year and pay the dividend in the same 60 day window, somehow the dividend is recorded as though it happened on December 31st, and there's no deferral of the income in the IC-DISC. That's just flat out wrong. A dividend is taxable when it's declared, and most likely it's not going to be declared as of the end of the year. Dave: So that's like a miss application of the age old matching principle in accounting? Brian: Yes. Yes, definitely. Or a misapplication of someone thinking they have a evergreen dividend resolution, which I won't get into at the moment, but it's something that is used to accelerate dividends so that they do match the deduction of a IC-DISC. And you can't just match it because you have to match it because there's some reason to match it or there's action that's taken that would cause it to be matched. Dave: And I've heard some professionals maintain that because they're basically accelerating the dividend income to the current year, thereby bypassing the inherent deferral. That's okay, because why did the IRS care if they got paid a year early? Do you think that's, what's your opinion of that? Brian: I think that's a nice practical approach to that issue. I use it myself. I don't think that the IRS would audit a taxpayer and say, oh, by the way, you picked up that dividend too early. I'm going to write you a refund check. Dave: Yeah. Brian: Plus interest, I don't think, Dave: Now what if there was an audit though, and you had an issue where the audit period it covered had a mismatch so that if there was a year that you say it was the 2022 tax year and the dividend income should have been recognized in 2023, but they recognized it in 2022, and then let's just say they did an audit from of 2023 in isolation, and then let's say in 2023, the client didn't use the IC-DISC or had a much smaller commission amount, could the IRS potentially say, we don't care about 2022. In 2023, you should have recognized the dividend income. Brian: They they certainly could. And then they'd say, well, 2022 is closed. We can't adjust that. So it's always better to not fall into that fact pattern, but it happens. Definitely happens. Dave: So it Brian: Sounds like the good news is there's not a lot of IC-DISC audits that go, Dave: Yeah. So you're saying it sounds like when in doubt, just follow the rules, it sounds like. Brian: Yeah. Dave: When Brian: In doubt follow the rules, don't make up your own rules, for Dave: Sure. Yeah. Well, and I think part of the problem is people may not be aware of the rules. Brian: They're not, and then they just fill in the blank. Their brain fills in the blank with what they think makes sense. Dave: Yeah, because a lot of be a lot of differences between the IC-DISC and say an S corp, right? Like the election to be treated as an S corp does not have the same deadline urgency as the election be treated as a IC-DISC. Is that correct? Brian: I'm not a hundred percent sure, but there might, yeah, I am a hundred percent sure. Because if you miss the deadline for the S selection, there's automatic relief available for the S selection to be made late. There is no automatic relief available for a IC-DISC election. Either you've met the requirement to file it within the first 60 days of the corporation its existence, or you haven't. Now, there are exceptions, and we have written some private letter ruling requests in the past to get be granted relief for missing that 90 day window, but that's an extensive Dave: Miss. Yeah, understood. And then some other, Brian: And you may not know for two years whether you're going to get the relief or Dave: Yeah, I know I've had CPAs tell me that they frequently will just include the form 25 53 S corp election with the filing of the initial S corp return. Brian: That's allowed. And that's allowed, Dave: Yeah. Obviously you can't do that with the IC-DISC return. Brian: No, no. So then on the topic dividends, there's also some misunderstanding or misconception of whether a dividend from a IC-DISC is subject to the net investment income tax, the 3.8%. Dave: Oh, yes. I've heard people take that position that it's not subject to. What are your thoughts? Brian: Well, my thoughts are that many years ago, like 11 years ago, the IRS came out and said, it's definitely subject to the commission IC-DISC paying a dividend. That dividend is definitely subject to the net investment income tax. So I personally don't get involved in individual returns, so I don't know what people are doing, but if I'm ever asked, that's what I'll tell somebody. And I say, you can take whatever position you're comfortable taking, but this is the position I know the IRS would take. Dave: Okay, that makes sense. What other pitfalls do you see or misconceptions Brian: People have? So when I see IC-DISC, there's a $10 million, let's call the $10 million deferral cap with regard to a IC-DISC. And what that means is any IC-DISC commission related to export sales made by the related supplier, which are greater than 10 million above that $10 million threshold, create what's called a deemed dividend. You're not allowed to defer any of that income in the IC-DISC. Well, in practice or in the real world, people think, oh, I can't have more than 10 million of export sales. If I go over 10 million, I can't use the disk. That's clearly not true. I have clients that have seen clients that have billions of dollars of export sales. They just have a very large deep dividend that goes along with the IC IC-DISC commission. There is no limitation on the amount of export sales, the limitations on how much of the income you can defer the IC-DISC if you have more than 10 million of export suit. Dave: Okay. Brian: I've also seen related to that issues where someone's exporting military property. So military property, half of the income is a deemed dividend automatic under the rules. And then I've seen where they then add, and let's say the sales were over 10 million, they've added, they made an additive, they took half of the commission on the military property, and they said, oh, my sales are more than 10 million. I have additional deemed dividend as well. That's not how it works. The way it works is you compute your deemed dividend on the sales in excess of 10 million, and then from that you subtract the deemed dividend related to the military property. And so the most your deemed dividend can be is related to that $10 million cap. Dave: Okay. Yeah, I was less familiar with the military aspect of it. I don't think any of my clients are exporting military property. Brian: That's just an example. I mean, there's other things that give rise to deemed dividends as well. For example, one way you can defer income in a IC-DISC is to loan the money back to the related supplier. Under a producer loan arrangement, there's very specific facts that support the ability to use a producer loan. But then each year, the interest that's earned on that producer loan is a deemed dividend. Dave: Oh, sure. Brian: Whether it's paid or not. So whether the interest is paid, and then when the dividend is actually paid, it's not taxable because we've got a lot of ordering rules in the IC-DISC about when things get paid out and how they get paid out, and I don't have all day, but that's another area where I think there's a lot of misunderstanding. Dave: Okay. Brian: Oh, well, so I can focus on one small part of that is the IC-DISC in year one has the income of a hundred. In first quarter of year two, they pay out the 100 to the IC-DISC and the DIS pays the dividend. And in year two, it earns $300, and that gets paid in year three. Well, I hear all the time, well, I don't have any income deferred to the DIS because I earned the a hundred dollars in year one, I paid it in year two, and I paid the dividend in year two, and then I had income for year two of $300 that I paid in year three. Well, it doesn't work that way. In the DIS world or in the tax world in general, current earnings are always considered to be distributed first. So that a hundred dollars that gets paid out in year two is really coming from the year two earnings. And the year one earnings are still sitting in the deferred, thus giving rise to the interest charge that someone thinks they're avoiding. Dave: Okay. Brian: So there's some misconception about how that works. Dave: So I have one I just thought of, and I've heard this is the one, the misconception I've probably heard the most. Under no circumstances can the IC-DISC commission create a loss at the related supplier level? No matter how you do the calculation, it's Brian: Impossible. That's a big misconception. Dave: Yeah, Brian: There's no rule. There is no rule like that. Okay. So the rule is actually applied at the level in which you're computing the IC-DISC commission. So if you have exports with a profit, but overall your company has a loss, you can still compute a IC-DISC commission on those export sales because they have profit. Now, you can't cause the profit on the export sales themselves to become a loss. So let's say your export sales are making 2% bottom line, but overall, your company loses 3% bottom line. Some people will think, I can't get a IC-DISC commission. I have a loss. That's not true. You can claim a IC-DISC commission, but it cannot be more than 2% of the export profit because then makes the profit on the export zero, but it can't go below zero. Dave: And that's if you're using what we would call the standard or simple calculation. Brian: That's the simple calculation. Now, if you're doing something more detailed and you're calculating a IC-DISC commission on a product or product line or a transaction, you apply that no loss rule at that level. So you can have a number of transactions that are profitable, you can have a number of transactions that are not profitable, and then different rules apply. There's really people think, oh, there's two methods to compute a IC-DISC commission. That's probably another big misconception. There's really 18 methods to compute a IC-DISC commission, and you can choose one that allows you to get a commission but doesn't create a loss, and in some cases does actually allow you to create a loss. Dave: And is that methodology difference? I can't think of the technical accounting term, like where if you change your inventory method, you have to notify the IRS or you make an accounting change. This isn't like that, right? You don't have to each year notify the IRS. We used the 4% method last year, we're using the 50% this year, or we're doing other methodology. Correct. Brian: So you technically notify them by checking various boxes on the IC-DISC return, but it's not like a change in the accounting method where you have to apply for a change and have it approved or have an automatic change. This is considered a change in facts. And however your facts bear out, you can claim whatever commission you're allowed to claim. Dave: Now, when you do that transactional calculation, another misconception I hear is that it's just impossible because there's all this data that the company doesn't have, and it's so complicated to do it that just nobody has the ability to do it. Nobody can do it. Nobody wants to do it. Talk to me about that. Is the data really impossible to get from the clients? There no client that can provide any data that can be used. Brian: There may be handful that can't, but by and large, most companies have the ability in 2025 to obtain that data. When the rules were written in 1972, I'd say it was probably flipped where only a handful could probably get that information. And the vast majority of companies would never be able to get that information. But somebody wrote the regs that way back in the early seventies, and with the idea that you could get transactional information and compute the dis commission transactionally as opposed to at a higher level where everything's grouped together or a simple calculation. But in 2025, it's very, I have a hard time determining conceiving of a company that can't get some information pulled together. And that's the other, there's a related misconception. Oh, I have to tie out every dollar of my cost of good sold before I can tell you I have cost of good sold data for a transaction. Well, that's just not true because in the real world, companies make journal entries adjusting the cost of good sold. They don't do it at a transactional level. There's other things that schedule M'S on a tax return that affect cost of good sold. And so no, you don't have to nub that out to the last dollar to say, I have transactional data. You have to be able to identify what you can and what you can't identify gets allocated or apportioned across all the transactions. And if you think about it, if you say, I can't get anything, you're really apportioning all of the costs over everything anyway. That's the ultimate in apportionment. There's not even any allocation. You're just saying, oh, every one of my transactions has the same margin as a result, which is really factually never the case. Dave: Well, and I just thought of another one, and this isn't maybe a misconception as much as it is a misinterpretation. I can't tell you how many IC-DISCs I see that the related supplier is a flow through entity, yet they have the individuals own the IC-DISC. Have you seen this before? Brian: I've seen it. And sometimes they think that's the way it had to be. Sometimes they hadn't really thought of. It depends how they're using it. But the real downside to that is the IC-DISC commission reduces the income of the flow through entity, thus reducing the basis they have in their shares of that flow through entity. And then the dividend gets paid to the individual and there's no basis increase the dividend income. And unless they contribute the funds back to the business, they're eroding away their basis stock, which ultimately will result in a higher gain if they ever sell their business. Dave: When the ownership of the IC-DISC matches the ownership of the related supplier. Can you think of a scenario where it is actually beneficial for the individual shareholders to the IC-DISC instead of the related supplier? Brian: Yes. There are situations depending on where this shareholder lives. So let's say the shareholder lives in, say the company is operating in a state with a state income tax, but the shareholder lives in a state that doesn't have a state income tax. It's possible to get that dividend to the shareholder tax free, where maybe if it went through the S corporation or the partnership, it would not be tax free. Dave: I see. And you're talking about tax free at the state level? Brian: Yes. Federally, I don't really see in a regular IC-DISC that's just been used to pay dividends to the owners of the supplier. I don't see, unless it's a C corporation, in that case, you don't want the IC-DISC owned by the C corp, but if it's a flow through entity, you generally get the same tax answer, whether it's owned directly by the flow through entity or directly by the shareholders. Dave: Okay. Oh, I just thought of another misconception. It's funny, when we started this column, I only had a handful of misconceptions. But the more we talk, the more we think of. So here's another one. Say you have a flow through as the related supplier yet for whatever reason, you want the IC-DISC to be owned by the individual shareholders. Well, I've been told several times that the ownership of the IC-DISC must match the ownership of the related supplier. There is no option to do otherwise. Is that accurate? Brian: That's a fairly strong statement. So the answer to that is no, it's not absolutely not required. Now, if the shareholders are related to one enough FAMILIALLY related, and there appears to be donative intent. So if mom and dad own a company and set up a IC-DISC and transfer it to the kids, there is some old IRS guidance out there that says, Hey, when a IC-DISC commission's paid to that IC-DISC, mom and dad are making a gift to kids. So that's a pattern you want to avoid, which is pretty easy to avoid, frankly. Dave: And you would avoid that by just setting up a new IC-DISC that the children would Brian: Set up initially and not get transferred by Dave: To the right and where the kids are making the capital contribution to Bible stock and Brian: Right. Exactly. But that's the one little gray area. Otherwise, there are some people out there that set up a IC-DISC to fund bonuses for executives. And we've kind of transitioned here away from misconceptions to underutilized opportunities because really that's an opportunity where you can use a IC-DISC to fund bonus payments to key executives and owners, or not owners, and it doesn't save the company any money, but it certainly saves the recipients a good amount of tax because if they get bonuses, they're paying tax, whatever their ordinary rate is, let's just say 37%, where plus there's payroll tax of 3.8%, whereas if it's funded through a IC-DISC, they pay tax at the qualified dividend rate plus the 3.8%. So it's a 17% rate differential on that type of income between the wages and the qualified dividend for the recipient. Dave: And I guess it would also save the employer portion of the employment taxes as well, right? Brian: Well, it saves the employee and the employer, but it's replaced by the Obamacare net investment income tax. So they're both 3.8%. Dave: But if you had a simple example where an employee had a base salary of a hundred thousand dollars and they had a $20,000 bonus that was paid through the IC-DISC, that would've been subject to Brian: Fica. I'm thinking about people that are making more than Dave: Understood, Brian: But you can save FICA tax as well, Dave: And the Brian: Employer and the Dave: Employee, and that's kind of what I was thinking of. And even when they get above that limit, there's still the 1.45% that I think has no cap. Brian: Right. But again, that's the employer portion. Then there's the employee portion together that's 3.80, Dave: Right, which is the, Brian: So you've got the Obamacare tax. Gotcha. Dave: Well, that reminds me of another misconception that you had alluded to, and that is that a related supplier can only have one IC-DISC affiliated with it. Is that true? Brian: That is not true. Related supplier could have a thousand IC-DISCs if it wanted to. Dave: In fact, that option you mentioned of the employee owned IC-DISC, I usually see that as that being an additional IC-DISC kind of in addition to the primary IC-DISC. Is that usually how you see it? Brian: I see that way as well. Yeah, for sure. Or I see IC-DISC A is going to fund bonuses for the C level executives, and then IC-DISC B is going to fund bonuses for middle management. And so middle management IC-DISC has a targeted amount, and the upper level IC-DISC may not have a targeted amount. It might just be unlimited. Dave: Now, the drawback is if you have multiple disk, the combined commission amount for all of them cannot exceed what it would've been if you had just one IC-DISC. Right. It's not a mechanism to create larger combined Brian: That definitely can't, doesn't work. Yeah, it definitely would. But yeah, you can definitely set up different structures to fund bonuses for different people, or if it's a C corporation, and we don't see a lot of C corporations with IC-DISCs. But if you're a closely held C corporation, you can have a shareholder owned IC-DISC, and if you're in the habit of paying dividends, you can pay commissions to a DIS instead of paying those dividends, Dave: Avoiding the double taxation in Brian: The corporate layer. Exactly. So that's an underutilized opportunity in my opinion, because there's got to be more closely held C corps out there than the amount that are using IC-DISCs. Dave: And I guess another one, we touched on this earlier, but the evergreen dividend resolution, what's this all about? Why is this an opportunity? What are the benefits of Brian: It? So the evergreen dividend resolution basically says the IC-DISC is going to distribute, its right to receive a commission each year on the last day of its year. So that accelerates the dividend into the same year as the commission expense. That alleviates the need to move money under the 60 day rule and 90 day rule. There's no reason to move the money if you're not trying to qualify a receivable. That's what those rules relate to, whether you're as receivable as qualified or not. So that's a benefit. It also can guard against the law change where the rate on the dividend income would go up in the subsequent year. You can avoid that. But a lot of practitioners treat their IC-DISC like they have an evergreen, but they don't actually have it. And that's a problem in my mind. But if you have it, it just makes everything a lot easier. You don't have to try to figure something out by the end of February. You figure it out once and you just treat it like it all happened at the end of the year. And I know that that works because I had a client years ago that was in tax court in the great state of Texas. The issue came up. I wrote up a brief for the client, and the tax court accepted the evergreen as a viable dividend resolution Dave: Because in a way, didn't the tax court almost defer that to the state rules? Brian: Well, they just fall under. So you can have a dividend, you can create a dividend under state corporate law just by writing a resolution, but you have to have the income to support the dividend, to have a dividend for tax purposes. So if you have the resolution that says, I'm declaring a dividend on December 31st every year, then based on facts, you either do have a dividend or you don't for tax purposes depending on how much income you have. So it just falls back on that probably one other underutilized Dave: Opportunity. Well, Brian, before you move, I just wanted to talk about the evergreen, I guess is the biggest drawback that the taxpayer would miss out on the deferral. Brian: That's one of the drawbacks. The other drawback has to do with the interplay between all of this and this 4 61 L limitation, which limits how much of a flow through loss a taxpayer can deduct in a year. So you could have a situation where the IC-DISC dividend on a transaction by transaction basis becomes so large, the commission becomes so large, it creates a loss and the flow through entity, the shareholder can only deduct a certain amount of that loss, but they would have to potentially pick up all the dividend income Dave: And then Brian: Deduct that loss at a later point in time. Now, personally, I'm still getting a permanent rate benefit out of it. So if I'm not going to sit on this loss for years and years, I think it's okay. But if I'm going to sit on that loss year after year after year and not utilize it, then I don't want to be picking up those dividends that I can't utilize the losses. So it just requires some additional coordination between the CPA and us and the client to determine exactly what the right commission should be. Dave: Okay. So you're about to, Brian: And that's another misconception. Dave: Yeah, go ahead. Brian: Yeah, like, oh, my commission has to either be whatever I compute or zero can't be anywhere in between. That's a misconception because I can target an amount, and as long as my IC-DISC commission agreement gives the related supplier the unilateral power to include or not include a IC-DISC export sale in the IC-DISC calculation, I can pick and choose whatever number I want that to be so that I don't have a 4 61 L problem, or I don't have the number be bigger than I can utilize. In other words. Dave: And that's because the IRS does not require you to capture every export sale. So that's basically limit the IC-DISC commission to a specific amount and back into which of the export sales you'll basically exclude from the calculation. Brian: Right? Right. Exactly. Exactly. But again, also we like to see that supported in the IC-DISC commission agreement. And then the last underutilized opportunity has to do with G there. Having a IC-DISC does have some cost. So if I don't have at these 3 million of export sales, it might be questionable whether I can really benefit economically benefit from a IC-DISC. When I look at the cost and the benefit, well, there are structures out there that we'll call a shared ING IC-DISC where partner like small exporter can invest in a partnership. That partnership owns a IC-DISC. Maybe there's five or six investors in the partnership. They're all unrelated. They all have, let's call it a million dollars of export sales. And on a standalone basis, there'd be too much cost for setting up the disk compliance to offset the tax benefits, but it'd be greater than the tax benefits. But if I can use a shared disk, then I only have to share a portion of the cost, the annual cost of the IC-DISC, but I still get my tax benefit. And really what happens with the other partners? So the partnership owns the IC-DISC. The IC-DISC earns that commission from the related supplier, then the IC-DISC pays all of its dividends to that partnership, and the partnership can then allocate the dividends back to the individual exporters based on their contribution. So it's a way for smaller companies to still get a tax benefit out of it. And I seen very few of these out there. So there's got to be thousands of companies that export that just don't export enough to have their own IC-DISC. Dave: Yeah, yeah. No, that's an interesting opportunity. And I agree based on my experience. I mean, I've talked to so many people in the past, or I did talk to so many people who exported $2 million or less, and I'd have to say to them, it's probably not worth the time and the cost because there's time on their end and then there's hard cost to have the work done. Brian: Yeah. I've had the same conversation countless times with companies as well. It's really something that both exporters and their CPAs should be aware of because the CPAs are in the best position to know that their clients are doing some level of export. Dave: And I just thought of another misconception, and that is that the virtually from the day after the IC-DISC rules were enacted, prognosticators started saying that the IC-DISC is going away. It's just going to be a short-lived thing. And even in the two decades I've been involved in IC-DISC work, I've heard this from so many tax practitioners, oh yeah, this thing's going away anyway, why bother? Brian: Yeah. Well, it really, for it to go away would fly right in the face of current policy in the administration. So I don't think it's going away anytime soon. Some of the benefits have been whittled away over time with some of the other provisions that are coming into play, but it's really not going to get repealed anytime soon. Certainly not in the next four years after that, who knows. But certainly it's good for the next four years. But it's funny, in 2003 with the Bush tax cuts, they brought in this concept of qualified dividend income, which really revitalized the use of the IC-DISC for a lot of pass through businesses. One of the big four firms said, oh, it's going to be a technical correction, and the qualified dividends are not going to include the dis dividends. Well, here it is 22 years later, I'm still waiting for that technical correction out of Congress, but I guarantee you that they've advised their clients to use the IC-DISC, even though they were out there saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is an error. It's going to go away. Dave: Well, I had this conversation, I think it was in 2009. I think the preferential dividend rate was IC-DISCussed going away at the end of 2010. If I have my time horizon. And I remember it was late summer of I believe oh nine, talked to the potential client, they connected me to the CPA, and this was the international tax partner of a top 50 CPA firm. And she said to me, quote, I think you're being reckless even bringing this idea up to my client. I said, why is that? She said, are you not aware of house resolution such and such that hadn't been passed, but the resolution was going to ever go away? And she said, if this is passed, then this will not be usable beyond the 2010 tax share. And she said, we think it's reckless and not even sure why you'd want to bother with it if you can only at max use it for a year and four months. And I remembered saying, I appreciate that. You may not think it's worth it, but I wonder if the client, when he does the ROI calculations, if they might think it's worth it. Because even if they only used it for a year and a half, it still might be worth the cost to set it up, the compliance cost and the cost to shut it down. Brian: That whole analysis took place in 2007, 2010, 2012. I remember, I'm not proud of this, staying up late on New Year's night of 2013, so I could watch Congress vote because they let the qualified dividend rate lapse and then they had to reenact it the next day. And they did it on January 1st, and I sat in front of the TV watching. I was fairly invested in whether they were going to vote for it Dave: Or not. Yeah. Well, I think that's appropriate. You're a little bit like the soup Nazi from Seinfeld. He is got such passion for his customers. Brian: There you go. Yeah, I definitely am passionate about what I do because I love what I do. I couldn't imagine not doing it. Dave: Yeah, I find the same. Brian: And I love helping taxpayers legitimately reduce their tax burden. Dave: Well, and the clients that we help tend to be entrepreneurial type companies, they're not Fortune 500. And I've seen where this can legitimately make a difference in freeing up cash to buy more equipment, hire more people. It's quite a stimulus. Brian: Also not a misconception is Fortune 500 companies can't use a IC-DISC. It's really for private companies. Dave: Yeah. Brian: It's not something that you'll see a lot of or any private public companies utilize. Dave: Okay. Well boy, we've covered a lot. Anything left to cover? Any other misconceptions or opportunities you can think of? Brian: Nothing that I don't think we've IC-DISCussed. Dave: Okay. Well, I have one final kind of fun question. So with the benefit of hindsight, if you could go back in time and give advice to, say your 25-year-old self, what advice might you give to yourself? Brian: It's going to be completely non-tax related. Dave: That's okay. Brian: If you tear a ligament to your knee, get it repaired. I did that and I didn't get it repaired. And ultimately I got a new knee, which works just as well as the original with a lot more probably pain in the interim. Dave: Gotcha. Okay. Well that's good advice. So the takeaway, if you're 25 years old and you have a ligament tear, don't wait 30 years to get it fixed Brian: Or to not get it fixed at all and just get an artificial knee. Dave: Yeah. Understood. Well, Brian, thank you so much. This was really fun. I mean fun by a couple of IC-DISC nerds. I guess not everybody would consider this conversation fun, but I thought it was a lot of fun and I appreciate the expertise that you bring to this matter. Brian: I appreciate the opportunity to be here and chat with you about it. And maybe in the future there'll be some more topics we can talk about. Dave: Yep. I would enjoy that. We should make it an annual tradition. Brian: That sounds like a good idea. Dave: Alright. Hey, have a great day, Brian. Brian: You too, David. Dave: There we have it. Another great episode. Thanks for listening in. If you want to continue the conversation, go to ic IC-DISC show.com. That's IC dash D-C-S-H-O w.com. And we have additional information on the podcast archived episodes as well as a button to be a guest. So if you'd like to be a guest, go select that and fill out the information and we'd love to have you on the show. So it we'll be back next time with another episode of the IC-DISC Show. Special Guest: Brian Schwam.

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How to Build a Winning Strategy for Your B2B Brand In a fast-paced business environment, marketers, agencies, and consultants must proactively help clients differentiate their brands in the marketplace. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging, and brand positioning, both for their own brands and key competitors. So how can teams conduct this kind of brand research and competitive analysis in a way that's insightful, efficient, and actionable for planning the next steps? Tune in as the B2B Marketers on Mission Podcast presents the Marketing DEMO Lab Series, where we sit down with Clay Ostrom (Founder, Map & Fire) and his SmokeLadder platform designed for brand research, messaging and positioning analysis, and competitive benchmarking. In this episode, Clay explained the platform's origins and features, emphasizing its role in analyzing brand positioning, core messaging, and competitive landscapes. He also stressed the importance of clear, consistent brand positioning and messaging, and how standardized make it easier to compare brands across multiple business values. Clay also highlighted the value of objective, data-driven analysis to identify brand strengths, weaknesses, and gaps, and how tools like SmokeLadder can save significant time in gathering insights to build trust with clients. He provided practical steps for generating, refining, and exporting brand messaging and analysis for internal or client-facing use. Finally, Clay also discussed how action items and recommendations generated from analysis can immediately support smart brand strategy decisions and expedite trust-building with clients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4_o1PzF1Kk Topics discussed in episode: [1:31] The purpose behind building SmokeLadder and why it matters for B2B teams [12:00] A walkthrough of the SmokeLadder platform and how it works [14:51] SmokeLadder's core features [17:48] How positioning scores and category rankings are calculated [35:36] How differentiation and competitors are analyzed inside SmokeLadder [44:07] How SmokeLadder builds messaging and generates targeted personas [50:24] The key benefits and unique capabilities that set SmokeLadder apart Companies and links: Clay Ostrom Map & Fire SmokeLadder Transcript Christian Klepp  00:00 In an increasingly competitive B2B landscape, marketers, agencies and consultants, need to proactively find ways to help their clients stand out amidst the digital noise. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging and positioning of their own brands and those of their competitors. So how can they do this in a way that’s insightful, efficient and effective? Welcome to this first episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast Demo Lab Series, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Clay Ostrom about this topic. He’s the owner and founder of the branding agency Map and Fire, and the creator of the platform Smoke Ladder that we’ll be talking about today. So let’s dive in. Christian Klepp  00:42 All right, and I’m gonna say Clay Ostrom. Welcome to this first episode of the Demo Lab Series. Clay Ostrom  00:50 I am super excited and very honored to be the first guest on this new series. It’s awesome. Christian Klepp  00:56 We are honored to have you here. And you know, let’s sit tight, or batten down the hatches and buckle up, and whatever other analogy you want to throw in there, because we are going to unpack a lot of interesting features and discuss interesting topics around the platform that you’ve built. And I think a good place to start, perhaps Clay before we start doing a walk through of the platform is, but let’s start at the very beginning. What motivated you to create this platform called Smoke Ladder. Clay Ostrom  01:31 So we should go all the way back to my childhood. I always dreamed of, you know, working on brand and positioning. You know, that was something I’ve always thought of since the early days, but no, but I do. I own an agency called Map and Fire, so I’ve been doing this kind of work for over 10 years now, and have worked with lots and lots of different kinds of clients, and over that time, developed different frameworks and a point of view about how to do this kind of work, and when the AI revolution kind of hit us all, it just really struck me that this was an opportunity to take a lot of that thinking and a lot of that, you know, again, my perspective on how to do this work and productize that and turn it into something that could be used by people when we’re not engaged with them, in some kind of service offering. So, so that was kind of the kernel of it. I actually have a background in computer science and product. So it was sort of this natural Venn diagram intersection of I can do some product stuff, I can do brand strategy stuff. So let’s put it together and build something. Christian Klepp  02:46 And the rest, as they say, is history. Clay Ostrom  02:49 The rest, as they say, is a lot of nights and weekends and endless hours slaving away at trying to build something useful. Christian Klepp  02:58 Sure, sure, that certainly is part of it, too. Clay Ostrom  03:01 Yeah. Christian Klepp  03:02 Let’s not keep the audience in suspense for too long here, right? Like, let’s start with the walk through. And before you share your screen, maybe I’ll set this up a little bit, right? Because you, as you said, like, you know, you’ve built this platform. It’s called Smoke Ladder, which I thought was a really clever name. It’s, you like to describe it as, like, your favorite SEO (Search Engine Optimization) tool, but for brand research and analysis. So I would say, like, walk us through how somebody would use this platform, like, whether they be a marketer that’s already been like in the industry for years, or is starting out, or somebody working at a brand or marketing agency, and how does the platform address these challenges or questions that people have regarding brand strategy, analysis and research? Clay Ostrom  03:49 Yeah, yeah. I use that analogy of the SEO thing, just because, especially early on, I was trying to figure out the best way to describe it to someone who hasn’t seen it before. I feel like it’s a, I’m not going to fall into the trap of saying, this is the only product like this, but it has its own unique twists with what it can do. And I felt like SEO tools are something everybody has touched at one point or another. So I was using this analogy of, it’s like the s, you know, Semrush of positioning and messaging or Ahrefs, depending on your if you’re a Coke or Pepsi person. But I always felt like that was just a quick way to give a little idea of the fact that it’s both about analyzing your own brand, but it’s also about competitive analysis and being able to see what’s going on in the market or in your landscape, and looking specifically at what your competitors are doing and what their strengths and weaknesses are. So does that resonate with you in terms of, like, a shorthand way, I will say, I don’t. I don’t say that. It’s super explicitly on the website, but it’s been in conversation. Christian Klepp  05:02 No, absolutely, absolutely, that resonated with me. The only part that didn’t resonate with me is that I’m neither a coke or a Pepsi person. I’m more of a ginger ale type of guy. I digress. But yeah, let’s what don’t you share your screen, and let’s walk through this, right? Like, okay, if a marketing person were like, use the platform to do some research on, perhaps that marketers, like own company and the competitors as well, right? Like, what would they do? Clay Ostrom  05:32 Yeah, so that’s, that is, like you were saying, there’s, sort of, I guess, a few different personas of people who would potentially use this. And initially I was thinking a little more about both in house, people who, you know, someone who’s working on a specific brand, digging really deep on their own brand, whether they’re, you know, the marketing lead or whatever, maybe they’re the founder, and then this other role of agency owners, or people who work at an agency where they are constantly having to look at new brands, new categories, and quickly get up to speed on what those brands are doing and what’s the competitive space look like, you know, for that brand. And that’s something that, if you work at an agency, which obviously we both have our own agencies, we do this stuff weekly. I mean, every time a new lead comes in, we have to quickly get up to speed and understand something about what they do. And one of the big gaps that I found, and I’d be curious to kind of hear your thoughts on this, but I’ve had a lot of conversations with other agency owners, and I think one of the biggest gaps is often that brands are just not always that great at explaining their own brand or positioning or differentiation to you, and sometimes they have some documentation around it, but a lot of times they don’t. A lot of it’s word of mouth, and that makes it really hard to do work for them. If whatever you’re doing for them, whether that’s maybe you are working on SEO or maybe you’re working on paid ads or social or content, you have to know what the brand is doing and kind of what they’re again, what their strengths and weaknesses are, so that you can talk about that. I mean, do you come across that a lot in your work? Christian Klepp  07:33 How do I say this without offending anybody? I find, I mean jokes aside, I find, more often than not, in the especially in the B2B space, which is an area that I operate in, I find 888 point five times out of 10. We are dealing with companies that have a they, have a very rude, rudimentary, like, framework of something that remotely resembles some form of branding. And I know that was a very long winded answer, but it’s kind of sort of there, but not really, if you know what I mean. Clay Ostrom  08:17 Yeah. Christian Klepp  08:17 And there have been other extreme cases where they’ve got the logo and the website, and that’s as far as their branding goals. And I would say that had they had all these, this discipline, like branding system and structure in place, then people like maybe people like you and I will be out on a job, right and it’s something, and I’m sure you’ve come across this, and we’ll probably dig into this later, but like you, it’s something I’ve come across several times, especially in the B2B space, where branding is not taken seriously until it becomes serious. I know that sounds super ironic, right, but, and it’s to the point of this platform, right, which we’re going to dig into in a second, but it’s, it’s things, for instance, positioning right, like, are you? Are you, in fact, strategically positioned against competitors? Is your messaging resonating with, I would imagine, especially in the B2B context, with the multiple group target groups that you have, or that your company is, is going after? Right? Is that resonating, or is this all like something that I call the internal high five? You’ve this has all been developed to please internal stakeholders and and then you take it to market, and it just does not, it just does not resonate with the target audience at all. Right? So there’s such a complex plethora of challenges here, right? That people like yourself and like you and I are constantly dealing with, and I think that’s also part of the reason why I would say a platform like this is important, because it helps to not just aggregate data. I mean, certainly it does that too, but it helps. To put things properly, like into perspective at speed. I think that might be, that might be something that you would have talked about later, but it does this at speed, because I think, from my own experience, one of the factors in our world that sometimes works against us is time, right? Clay Ostrom  10:19 No, I totally agree, yeah, and, you know, we’re lucky, I guess would be the word that we are often hired to work on a company strategy with them and help them clarify these things. Christian Klepp  10:33 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  10:34 There are a million other flavors of agencies out there who are being hired to execute on work for a brand, and not necessarily being brought in to redefine, you know what the brand, you know they’re positioning and their messaging and some of these fundamental things, so they’re kind of stuck with whatever they get. And like you said, a lot of times it’s not much. It might be a logo and a roughly put together website, and maybe not a whole lot else. So, yeah, but I think your other point about speed is that was a huge part of this. I think the market is only accelerating right now, because it’s becoming so much easier to start up new companies and new brands and new products. And now we’ve got vibe coding, so you can technically build a product in a day, maybe launch it the next day, start marketing it, you know, by the weekend. And all of this is creating noise and competition, and it’s all stuff that we have to deal with as marketers. We have to understand the landscape. We’ve got to quickly be able to analyze all these different brands, see where the strengths and weaknesses are and all that stuff. So… Christian Klepp  11:46 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  11:46 But, yeah, that, I think that the speed piece is a huge part of this for sure. Christian Klepp  11:51 Yeah. So, so we’re okay, so we’re on the I guess this, this will probably be the homepage. So just walk us through what, what a marketing person would do if they want to use this platform, yeah? Clay Ostrom  12:00 So the very first thing you do when you come in, and this was when I initially conceived of this product, one of the things that I really wanted was the ability to have very quick feedback, be able to get analysis for whatever brand you’re looking at, you know, right away to be able to get some kind of, you know, insight or analysis done. So the first thing you can do, and you can do this literally, from the homepage of the website, you can enter in a URL for a brand, come into the product, even before you’ve created an account, you can come in and you can do an initial analysis, so you can put in whatever URL you’re looking at, could be yours, could be a competitor, and run that initial analysis. What we’re looking at here, this is, if you do create an account, this is, this becomes your, as we say, like Home Base, where you can save brands that you’re looking at. You can see your history, all that good stuff. And it just gives you some quick bookmarks so that you can kind of flip back and forth between, maybe it’s your brand, maybe it’s some of the competitors you’re looking at and then it gives you just some quick, kind of high level directional info. And I kind of break it up into these different buckets. Clay Ostrom  13:23 And again, I’d love to kind of hear if this is sort of how you think about it, too. But there’s sort of these different phases when you’re working on a brand. And again, this is sort of from an agency perspective, but you first got the sort of the research and the pitch piece. So this is before maybe you’re even working with them. You’re trying to get an understanding of what they do. Then we have discovery and onboarding, where we’re digging in a little bit deeper. We’re trying to really put together, what does the brand stand for, what are their strengths and weaknesses? And then we have the deeper dive, the strategy and differentiation. And this is where we’re really going in and getting more granular with the specific value points that they offer, doing some of that messaging analysis, finding, finding some of the gaps of the things that they’re talking about or not talking about, and going in deeper. So it kind of break it up into these buckets, based on my experience of how we engage with clients. Does that? Does that make sense to you, like, does that? Christian Klepp  14:28 It does make sense, I think. But what could be helpful for the audience is because this, this almost looks like it’s a pre cooked meal. All right, so what do we do we try another I mean, I think you use Slack for the analysis. Why don’t we use another brand, and then just pop it into that analysis field, and then see what it comes out with. Clay Ostrom  14:51 So the nice thing about this is, if you are looking at a brand that’s been analyzed, you’re going to get the data up really quickly. It’ll be basically pop up instantly. But you can analyze a brand from scratch as well. Just takes about a minute or so, basically, to kind of do some of the analysis. So for the sake of a demo, it’s a little easier just to kind of look at something that we’ve got in there. But if it’s a brand that you know, maybe you’re looking at a competitor for one of your brands, you know, there’s a good chance, because we’ve got about 6000 brands that we’ve analyzed in here, that there’s a good chance there’ll be some info on them. But so this is pipe drive. So whoever’s not familiar Pipedrive is, you know, it’s a CRM  (Customer Relationship Management), it’s, it’s basically, you know, it’s a lighter version of a HubSpot or Salesforce basically track deals and opportunities for business, but this so I flipped over. I don’t know if it was clear there, but I flipped over to this brand brief tab. And this is where we we get, essentially, a high level view of some key points about the brand and and I think about this as this would be something that you would potentially share with a client if you were, you know, working with them and you wanted to review the brand with them and make sure that your analysis is on point, but you’ll see it’s kind of giving you some positioning scores, where you rank from a category perspective, message clarity, and then we’ve got things like a quick overview, positioning summary, who their target persona is, in this case, sales manager, sales operation lead, and some different value points. And then it starts to get a little more granular. We get into like key competitors, Challenger brands. We do a little SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats) analysis, and then maybe one of the more important parts is some of these action items. So what do we do with this? Yeah, and obviously, these are, these are starting points. This is not, it’s not going to come in and, you know, instantly be able to tell you strategically, exactly what to do, but it’s going to give you some ideas of based on the things we’ve seen. Here are some reasonable points that you might want to be looking at to, you know, improve the brand. Make it make it stronger. Christian Klepp  17:13 Gotcha. Gotcha. Now, this is all great clay, but like, I think, for the benefit of the audience, can we scroll back up, please. And let’s just walk through these one by one, because I think it’s important for the audience/potential future users,/ customers of Smoke Ladder, right? To understand, to understand this analysis in greater depth, and also, like, specifically, like, let’s start with a positioning score right, like, out of 100 like, what is this? What is this based on? And how was this analyzed? Let’s start with that. Clay Ostrom  17:48 Yeah, and this is where the platform really started. And I’m going to actually jump over to the positioning tab, because this will give us the all the detail around this particular feature. But this is, this was where I began the product this. I kind of think of this as being, in many ways, sort of the heart and soul of it. And when I mentioned earlier about this being based on our own work and frameworks and how we approach this, this is very much the case with this. This is, you know, the approach we use with the product is exactly how we work with clients when we’re evaluating their positioning. And it’s, it’s basically, it’s built off a series of scores. And what we have here are 24 different points of business value, which, if we zoom in just a little bit down here, we can see things like reducing risk, vision, lowering cost, variety, expertise, stability, etc. So there’s 24 of these that we look at, and it’s meant to be a way that we can look across different brands and compare and contrast them. So it’s creating, like, a consistent way of looking at brands, even if they’re not in the same category, or, you know, have slightly different operating models, etc. But what we do is we go in and we score every brand on each of these 24 points. And if we scroll down here a little bit, we can see the point of value, the exact score they got, the category average, so how it compares against, you know, all the other brands we’ve analyzed, and then a little bit of qualitative information about why they got the score. Christian Klepp  19:27 Sorry, Clay, Can I just jump in for a second so these, these attributes, or these key values that you had in the graph at the top right, like, are these consistent throughout regardless of what brand is being analyzed, or the least change. Clay Ostrom  19:42 It’s consistent. Christian Klepp  19:43 Consistent? Clay Ostrom  19:44 Yeah, and that was one of the sort of strategic decisions we had to make with the product. Was, you know, there’s a, maybe another version of this, where you do different points depending on maybe the category, or, you know, things like that. But I wanted to do it consistent because, again, it allows us to look at every brand through the same lens. It doesn’t mean that every brand you know there are certain points of value that just aren’t maybe relevant for a particular brand, and that’s fine, they just won’t score as highly in those but at least it gives us a consistent way to look at so when you’re looking at 10 different competitors, you know you’ve got a consistent way to look at them together,. Christian Klepp  20:26 Right, right, right. Okay, okay, all right, thanks for that. Now let’s go down to the next section there, where you’ve got, like this table with like four different columns here. So you mentioned that these are being scored against other brands in their category. Like, can you share it with the audience? Like, how many other brands are being analyzed here? Clay Ostrom  20:51 Yeah, well, it depends on the category. So again, we’ve got six, you know, heading towards 7000 brands that we’ve analyzed collectively. Each category varies a little bit, but, you know, some categories, we have more brands than others. But what this allows us to do is, again, to quickly look at this and say, okay, for pipe drive, a big focus for pipe drive is organization, simplification. You know, one of their big value props is we’re an easier tool to use than Salesforce or HubSpot. You can get up to speed really quickly. You don’t have all the setup and configurations and all that kind of stuff. So this is showing us that, yes, like their messaging, their content, their brand, does, in fact, do a good job of making it clear that simplicity is a big part of pipe drive’s message. And they do that by talking about it a lot in their messaging, having case studies, having testimonials, all these things that support it. And that’s how we come up with these scores. Is by saying, like the brand emphasizes these points well, they talk about it clearly, and that’s what we base it on. Christian Klepp  22:04 Okay, okay. Clay Ostrom  22:06 But as you come, I was just gonna say as you come down here, you can see, so the green basically means that they score well above average for that particular point. Yellow is, you know, kind of right around average, or maybe slightly above, and then red means that they’re below average for that particular point. So for example, like variety of tools, they don’t emphasize that as much with pipe drive, maybe compared to, again, like a Salesforce or a HubSpot that has a gazillion tools, pipe drive, that’s not a big focus for them. So they don’t score as highly there, but you can kind of just get a quick view of, okay, here are the things that they’re really strong with, and here are the things that maybe they’re, you know, kind of weak or below average. Christian Klepp  22:58 Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s certainly interesting, because I, you know, I’ve, I’ve used the, I’ve used the platform for analyzing some of my clients, competitor brands. And, you know, when I’m looking at this, like analysis with the scoring, with the scoring sheet, it, I think it will also be interesting perhaps in future, because you’ve got a very detailed breakdown of, okay, the factors and how they’re scored, and what the brand value analysis is also, because, again, in the interest of speed and time, it’d be great if the platform can also churn out maybe a one to two sentence like, summary of what is this data telling us, right? Because I’m thinking back to my early days as a product manager, and we would spend hours, like back then on Excel spreadsheets. I’m dating myself a little bit here, but um, and coming up with this analysis and charts, but presenting that to senior management, all they wanted to know was the one to two sentence summary of like, come on. What are you telling me with all these charts, like, what is the data telling you that we need to know? Right? Clay Ostrom  24:07 I know it’s so funny. We again, as strategists and researchers, we love to nerd out about the granular details, but you’re right. When you’re talking to a leader at a business, it does come down to like, okay, great. What do we do? And so, and I flipped back over to slacks. I knew I had already generated this but, but we’re still in the positioning section here, but we have this get insights feature. So basically it will look at all those scores and give you kind of, I think, similar to what you’re describing. Like, here’s three takeaways from what we’re seeing. Okay, okay, great, yeah, so we don’t want to leave you totally on your own to have to figure it all out. We’ll give you, give you a little helping hand. Christian Klepp  24:53 Yeah. You don’t want to be like in those western movies, you’re on your own kid. Clay Ostrom  24:59 Yeah. We try not to strand you again. There’s a lot of data here. I think that’s one of the strengths and and challenges with the platform, is that we try to give you a lot of data. And for some people, you may not want to have to sift through all of it. You might want just sort of give me the three points here. Christian Klepp  25:19 Absolutely, absolutely. And at the very least they can start pointing you in the right direction, and then you could be, you could then, like, through your own initiative, and perhaps dig a little bit deeper and perhaps find some other insights that may be, may be relevant, right? Clay Ostrom  25:35 Totally. Christian Klepp  25:36 Hey, it’s Christian Klepp here. We’ll get back to the episode in a second. But first, I’d like to tell you about a new series that we’re launching on our show. As the B2B landscape evolves, marketers need to adapt and leverage the latest marketing tools and software to become more efficient. Enter B2B Marketers on a Mission Marketing Demo Lab where experts discuss the latest tools and software that empower you to become a better B2B marketer. Tune in as we chat with product experts. Provide unbiased product reviews, give advice and deliver insights into real world applications and actionable tips on tools and technologies for B2B marketing. Subscribe to the Marketing Demo Lab, YouTube channel and B2B Marketers on a Mission, on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Christian Klepp  26:21 All right. Now, back to the show, if we can, if we could jump back, sorry, to the, I think it was the brand brief, right? Like, where we where we started out, and I said, let’s, let’s dig deeper. Okay, so then, then we have, okay, so we talked about positioning score. Now we’re moving on to category rank and message clarity score. What does that look like? Clay Ostrom  26:41 Yeah. So the category rank is, it’s literally just looking at the positioning score that you’ve gotten for the brand and then telling you within this category, where do you sort of fall in the ranking, essentially, or, like, you know, how do we, you know, for comparing the score against all the competitors, where do you fall? So you can see, with Slack, they’re right in the middle. And it’s interesting, because with a product like Slack, even though we all now know what slack is and what it does and everything. Christian Klepp  27:18 Yeah. Clay Ostrom  27:19 The actual messaging and content that they have now, I think maybe doesn’t do as good of a job as it maybe did once upon a time, and it’s gotten as products grow and brands grow, they tend to get more vague, a little more broad with what they talk about, and that kind of leads to softer positioning. So that’s sort of what we’re seeing reflected here. And then the third score is the message clarity score, which we can jump into, like, a whole different piece. Christian Klepp  27:48 Four on a tennis not a very high score, right? Clay Ostrom  27:52 Yeah. And again, I think it’s a product, of, we can kind of jump into that section. Christian Klepp  27:57 Yeah, let’s do that, yeah. Clay Ostrom  27:59 But it’s, again, a product, I think of Slack being now a very mature product that is has gotten sort of a little vague, maybe a little broader, with their messaging. But the message clarity score, we basically have kind of two parts to this on the left hand side are some insights that we gather based on the messaging. So what’s your category, quick synopsis of the product. But then we also do some things, like… Christian Klepp  28:33 Confusing part the most confusing. Clay Ostrom  28:36 Honestly to me, as I get I’d love to hear your experience with this, but coming into a new brand, this is sometimes one of the most enlightening parts, because it shows me quickly where some gaps in what we’re talking about, and in this case, just kind of hits on what we were just saying a minute ago. Of the messaging is overloaded with generic productivity buzzwords, fails to clearly differentiate how Slack is better than email or similar tools, etc. But also, this is another one that I really like, and I use this all the time, which is the casual description. So rather than this technical garbage jargon, you know, speak, just give me. Give it to me in plain English, like we’re just chatting. And so this description of it’s a workplace chat app for teams to message, collaborate, share files. Like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, you know, I get it. Yeah, I already know what slack is. But if I didn’t, that would tell me pretty well. Christian Klepp  29:33 Absolutely, yeah, yeah. No, my experience with this is has been, you know, you and I have been in the branding space for a while. So for the trained eye, when you look at messaging, you’ll know if it’s good or not, right. And we come I mean, I’m sure you do the same clay, but I also come to my own like conclusions based on experience of like, okay, so why do I think that that’s good messaging, or why do I think that that’s confusing messaging? Or it falls short, and why and how can that be improved? But it’s always good to have validation with either with platforms like this, where you have a you have AI, or you have, you have a software that you can use that analyzes, like, for example, like the messaging on a website, and it dissects that and says, Well, okay, so this is what they’re getting, right? So there’s a scoring for that, so it’s in the green, and then this is, this is where it gets confusing, right? So even you run that through, you run that through the machine, and the machine analyzes it as like, Okay, we can’t clearly, clearly define what it is they’re doing based on the messaging, right? And for me, that’s always a it’s good. It’s almost like getting a second doctor’s opinion, right? And then you go, Aha. So I we’ve identified the symptoms now. So let’s find the penicillin, right? Like, let’s find the remedy for this, right? Clay Ostrom  30:56 Yeah, well, and I like what you said there, because part of the value, I think, with this is it’s an objective perspective on the brand, so it doesn’t have any baggage. It’s coming in with fresh eyes, the same way a new customer would come into your website, where they don’t know really much about you, and they have to just take what you’re giving at face value about what you present. And we as people working on brands get completely blinded around what’s actually working, what’s being communicated. There’s so much that we take for granted about what we already know about the brand. And this comes in and just says, Okay, I’m just, I’m just taking what you give me, and I’m going to tell you what I see, and I see some gaps around some of these things. You know, I don’t have the benefit of sitting in your weekly stand up meeting and hearing all the descriptions of what you’re actually doing. Christian Klepp  31:59 I’m sorry to jump in. I’m interested to know, like, just, just based on what we’ve been reviewing so far, like, what has your experience been showing this kind of analysis to clients, and how do they respond to some of this data, for example, that you know, you’re walking us through right now? Clay Ostrom  32:18 Yeah, I think it’s been interesting. Honestly, I think it can sometimes feel harsh. And I think again, as someone who’s both run an agency and also built worked on brands, we get attached to our work on an emotional level. Christian Klepp  32:42 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  32:42 Even if we think about it as, you know, this is just work, and it’s, you know, whatever, we still build up connections with our work and we want it to be good. And so I think there’s sometimes a little bit of a feeling of wow, like that’s harsh, or I would have expected or thought we would have done better or scored better in certain areas, but that is almost always followed up with but I’m so glad to know where, where we’re struggling, because now I can fix it. I can actually know what to focus on to fix, and that, to me, is what it’s all about, is, yes, there’s a little bit of feelings attached to some of these things, maybe, but at the end of the day, we really want it to be good. We want it to be clear. We don’t want to be a 4 out of 10. We want to be a 10 out of 10. And what specifically do we need to do to get there? And that’s really what we’re trying to reveal with this. So I think, you know, everybody’s a little different, but I would say the reactions are typically a mix of that. It’s like, maybe an ouch, but a Oh, good. Let’s work on it. Christian Klepp  33:55 Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. So we’ve got brand summary, we’ve got fundamentals, then quality of messaging is the other part of it, right? Clay Ostrom  34:02 So, yeah, so this, this is, this is where the actual 4 out of 10 comes. We have these 10 points that we look at and we say, Okay, are you communicating these things clearly? Are you communicating who your target customer is, your category, your offering, where you’re differentiated benefits? Do you have any kind of concrete claim about what you do to support you know what you’re what you’re selling? Is the messaging engaging? Is it concise? You’ll see here a 7% on concise. That’s basically telling us that virtually no brands do a good job of being concise. Only about 7% get a green check mark on this, and kind of similar with the jargon and the vague words big struggle points with almost every brand. Christian Klepp  34:55 Streamline collaboration. Clay Ostrom  34:58 So we can see here with Slack. You know some of the jargon we got, KPIs (Key Performance Indicators), MQLs (Marketing Qualified Lead), if you’re in the space, you could argue like, oh, I kind of know what those things are. But depending on your role, you may not always know. In something like Salesforce marketing cloud, unless you’re a real Salesforce nerd, you probably have no idea what that is. But again, it’s just a way to quickly identify some of those weak points, things that we could improve to make our message more clear. Christian Klepp  35:27 Yes, yes. Okay, so that was the messaging analysis correct? Clay Ostrom  35:33 Yeah. Christian Klepp  35:33 Yeah. Okay. So what else have we got? Clay Ostrom  35:36 Yeah, so I think one other thing we could look at just for a sec, is differentiation, and this is this kind of plays off of what we looked at a minute ago with the positioning scores. But this is a way for us to look head to head with two different brands. So in this case, we’ve got Slack in the red and we’ve got Discord in the greenish blue. And I think of these, these patterns, as sort of the fingerprint of your brand. So where you Where are you strong? Where are you weak? And if we can overlay those two fingerprints on top of each other, we can see, where do we have advantages, and where does our competitor have advantages? So if we come down, we can sort of see, and this is again, for the nerds like me, to be able to come in and go deep, do kind of a deep dive on specifically, why did, why does Discord score better than Slack in certain areas. And at the bottom here we can see a kind of a quick summary. So slack is stronger in simplification, saving time, Discord has some better messaging around generating revenue, lowering costs, marketability. But again, this gives us a way to think about what are the things we want to double down on? So what do we want to actually be known for in the market? Because we can’t be known for everything. You know, buyers can maybe only remember a couple things about us. What are those couple things where we’re really strong, where we really stand out, and we’ve got some separation from the competitors. Christian Klepp  37:18 Right, okay, okay, just maybe we take a step back here, because I think this is great. It’s very detailed. It gets a bit granular, but I think it’s also going back to a conversation that you and I had previously about, like, Okay, why is it so important to be armed with this knowledge, especially if you’re in the marketing role, or perhaps even an agency talking to a potential client going in there already armed with the information about their competitors. And we were talking about this being a kind of like a trust building mechanism, right? For lack of a better description, right? Clay Ostrom  38:03 Yeah, I think to me, what I like about this, and again, this does come out of 10 years of doing work, this kind of work with clients as well, is it’s so easy to fall into a space of soft descriptions around things like positioning and just sort of using vague, you know, wordings or descriptions, and when you can actually put a number on it, which, again, it’s subjective. This isn’t. This isn’t an objective metric, but it’s a way for us to compare and contrast. It allows us to have much more productive conversations with clients, where we can say we looked at your brand, we we what based on our analysis, we see that you’re scoring a 10 and a 9 on simplicity and organization, for example. Is that accurate to you like do you think that’s what you all are emphasizing the most? Does that? Does that resonate and at the same time, we can say, but your competitors are really focused on there. They have a strong, strong message around generating revenue and lowering costs for their customers. Right now, you’re not really talking about that. Is that accurate? Is that like, what you is that strategically, is that what you think you should be doing so really quickly, I’ve now framed a conversation that could have been very loose and kind of, you know, well, what do you think your strategy is about? What do you know? And instead, I can say, we see you being strong in these three points. We see your competitors being strong in these three points. What do you think about that? And I think that kind of clarity just makes the work so much more productive with clients, or just again, working on your own brand internally. So what do you think about that kind of perspective? Christian Klepp  40:08 Yeah, no, no, I definitely agree with that. It’s always and I’ve been that type of person anyway that you know you go into a especially with somebody that hasn’t quite become a client yet, right? One of the most important things is also, how should I put this? Certainly the trust building part of it needs to be there. The other part is definitely a demonstration of competence and ability, but it’s also that you’ve been proactive and done your homework, versus like, Okay, I’m I’m just here as an order taker, right? And let’s just tell me what to do, and I’ll do it right? A lot and especially, I think this has been a trend for a long time already, but a lot of the clients that I’ve worked with now in the past, they want to, they’re looking for a partner that’s not just thinking with them, it’s someone that’s thinking ahead of them. And this type of work, you know what we’re seeing here on screen, this is the type of work that I would consider thinking ahead of them, right? Clay Ostrom  41:18 No, I agree. I think you framed that really well. Of we’re trying to build trust, because if we’re going to make any kind of recommendations around a change or a shift, they have to believe that we know what we’re talking about, that we’re competent, that we’ve done the work. And I think I agree with you. I think like this, it’s kind of funny, like we all, I think, on some base level, are attracted to numbers and scores. It just gives us something to latch on to. But I think it also, like you said, it gives you a feeling that you’ve done your work, that you’ve done your homework, you’ve studied, you’ve you’ve done some analysis that they themselves may have never done on this level. And that’s a big value. Christian Klepp  42:08 Yes, and a big part of the reason just to, just to build on what you said, a big part of the reason why they haven’t done this type of work is because it’s not so much. The cost is certainly one part of it, but it’s the time, it’s a time factor and the resource and the effort that needs to be put into it. Because, you know, like, tell me if you’ve never heard this one before, but there are some, there are some companies that we’ve been working with that don’t actually have a clearly, like, you know, a clear document on who their their target personas are, yeah, or their or their ICPs, never mind the buyer’s journey map. They don’t, they don’t even have the personas mapped out, right? Clay Ostrom  42:52 100% Yeah, it’s, and it’s, I think you’re right. It’s, it’s a mix of time and it’s a mix of just experience where, if you are internal with a brand, you don’t do this kind of work all the time. You might do it at the beginning. Maybe you do a check in every once in a while, but you need someone who’s done this a lot with a lot of different brands so that they can give you guidance through this kind of framework. But so it’s, you know, so some of it is a mix of, you know, we don’t have the time always to dig in like this. But some of it is we don’t even know how to do it, even if we did have the time. So it’s hopefully giving, again, providing some different frameworks and different ways of looking at it. Christian Klepp  43:41 Absolutely, absolutely. So okay, so we’ve gone through. What is it now, the competitor comparison. What else does the platform provide us that the listeners and the audience should be paying attention to here? Clay Ostrom  43:55 So I’ll show you two more quick things. So one is this message building section. So this is… Christian Klepp  44:03 Are you trying to put me out of a job here Clay? Clay Ostrom  44:07 Well, I’ll say this. So far in my experience with this, it’s not going to put us out of a job, but it is going to hopefully make our job easier and better. It’s going to make us better at the work we do. And that’s really, I think that’s, I think that’s kind of, most people’s impression of AI at this point is that it’s not quite there to replace us, but it’s sure, certainly can enhance what we do. Christian Klepp  44:36 Yeah, you’ll excuse me, I couldn’t help but throw that one out. Clay Ostrom  44:38 Yeah, I know, trust me, I’m this. It’s like I’m building a product that, in a sense, is undercutting, you know, the work that I do. So it is kind of a weird thing, but this message building section, which is a new part of the platform. It will come in, and you can see on the right hand side. And there’s sort of a quick summary of all these different elements that we’ve already analyzed. And then it’s going to give you some generated copy ideas, including, if I zoom in a little bit here, we’ve got an eyebrow category. This is again for Slack. It’s giving us a headline idea, stay informed without endless emails. Sub headline call to action, three challenges that your customers are facing, and then three points about your solution that help address those for customers. So it’s certainly not writing all of your copy for you, but if you’re starting from scratch, or you’re working on something new, or even if you’re trying to refresh a brand. I think this can be helpful to give you some messaging that’s hopefully clear. That’s something that I think a lot of messaging misses, especially in B2B, it’s, it’s not always super clear, like what you even do. Christian Klepp  45:56 Don’t get me started. Clay Ostrom  45:59 So hopefully it’s clear. It’s, you know, again, it’s giving you some different ideas. And that you’ll see down here at the bottom, you can, you can iterate on this. So we’ve got several versions. You can actually come in and, you know, you can edit it yourself. So if you say, like, well, I like that, but not quite that, you know, I can, you know, get my human touch on it as well. But yeah, so it’s a place to iterate on message. Christian Klepp  46:25 You can kind of look at it like, let’s say, if you’re writing a blog article, and this will give you the outline, right? Yeah. And then most of the AI that I’ve worked with to generate outlines, they’re not quite there. But again, if you’re starting from zero and you want to go from zero to 100 Well, that’ll, that’ll at least get you to 40 or 50, right? But I’m curious to know, because we’re looking at this now, and I think this, I mean, for me, this is, this is fascinating, but, like, maybe, maybe this will be part of your next iteration. But will this, will this generate messaging that’s already SEO optimized. Clay Ostrom  47:02 You know, it’s not specifically geared towards that, but I would say that it ends up being maybe more optimized than a lot of other messaging because it puts such an emphasis on clarity, it naturally includes words and phrases that I think are commonly used in the space more so than you know, maybe just kind of typical off the shelf Big B2B messaging, Christian Klepp  47:27 Gotcha. I had a question on the target persona that you’ve got here on screen, right? So how does the platform generate the information that will then populate that field because, and when I’m just trying to think about like, you know, because I’ve been, I’ve been in the space for as long as you have, and the way that I’ve generated target personas in the past was not by making a wild guess about, like, you know, looking at the brand’s website. It’s like having conducting deep customer research and listening to hours and hours of recordings, and from there, generating a persona. And this has done it in seconds. So… Clay Ostrom  48:09 Yeah, it’s so the way the system works in a couple different layers. So it does an initial analysis, where it does positioning, messaging analysis and category analysis, then you can generate the persona on top of that. So it takes all the learnings that it got from the category, from the product, from your messaging, and then develops a persona around that. And it’s, of course, able to also pull in, you know, the AI is able to reference things that it knows about the space in general. But I have found, and this is true. I was just having a conversation with someone who works on a very niche brand for a very specific audience, and I was showing him what it had output. And I said, Tell me, like, Don’t hold back. Like, is this accurate? He said, Yeah, this is, like, shockingly accurate for you know, how we view our target customer. So I think it’s pretty good. It’s not again, not going to be perfect. You’re going to need to do some work, and you still got to do the research, but, but, yeah. Christian Klepp  49:13 Okay, fantastic, fantastic. How do, I guess there’s the option, I see it there, like, download the PDF. So anything that’s analyzed on the platform can then be exported in a PDF format, right? Like, like, into a report. Clay Ostrom  49:28 Yeah, right now you can export the messaging analysis, or, sorry, the the messaging ideation that you’ve done, and then in the brand brief you can also, you can download a PDF of the brand brief as well. So, those are the two main areas. I’m still working on some additional exports of data so that people can pull it into a spreadsheet and do some other stuff with it. Christian Klepp  49:49 Fantastic, fantastic. That’s awesome, Clay. I’ve got a couple more questions before I let you go. But this has been, this has been amazing, right? Like and I really hope that whoever’s in the one listening and, most importantly, watching this, I hope that you really do consider like, you know, taking this for a test drive, right? How many I might have asked you this before, because, you know, I am somebody that does use, you know, that does a lot of this type of research. But how much time would you say companies would save by using Smoke Ladder? Clay Ostrom  50:24 It’s a good question. I feel like I’m starting to get some feedback around that with from our users, but I mean, for me personally, I would typically spend an hour or two just to get kind of up to speed initially, with a brand and kind of look at some of their competitors. If I’m doing a deep dive, though, if I’m actually doing some of the deeper research work, it could be several hours per client. So I don’t know. On a given week, it might depend on how many clients you’re talking to. Could be anywhere from a few hours to 10 hours or more, depending on how much work you’re doing. But, yeah, I think it’s a decent amount. Christian Klepp  51:07 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this definitely does look like a time saver. Here comes my favorite question, which you’re gonna look at me like, Okay, I gotta, I gotta. Clay Ostrom  51:17 Now bring it on. Let’s go. Christian Klepp  51:22 Folks that are not familiar with Smoke Ladder are gonna look at this, um, and before they actually, um, take it upon themselves to, like, watch, hopefully, watch this video on our channel. Um, they’re gonna look at that and ask themselves, Well, what is it that Smoke Ladder does that? You know that other AI couldn’t do, right, like, so I guess what I’m trying to say is, like, Okay, why would they use? How does the platform differ from something like ChatGPT, Perplexity or Claude, right? To run a brand analysis? Clay Ostrom  52:00 Yeah, no, I think it’s a great question. I think it’s sort of the it’s going to be the eternal AI question for every product that has an AI component. And I would say to me, it’s three things. So one is the data, which we talked about, and I didn’t show you this earlier, but there is a search capability in here to go through our full archive of all the brands we’ve analyzed, and again, we’ve analyzed over 6000 brands. So the data piece is really important here, because it means we’re not just giving you insights and analysis based on the brand that you’re looking at now, but we can compare and contrast against all the other brands that we’ve looked at in the space, and that’s something that you’re not going to get by just using some off the shelf standard LLM  (Large Language Model) and doing some, you know, some quick prompts with that. The next one, I think, to me that’s important is it’s the point of view of the product and the brand. Like I said, this is built off of 10 plus years of doing positioning and messaging work in the space. So you’re getting to tap into that expertise and that approach of how we do things and building frameworks that make this work easier and more productive that you wouldn’t get, or you wouldn’t know, just on your own. And then the last one, the last point, which is sort of the kind of like the generic software answer, is you get a visual interface for this stuff. It’s the difference between using QuickBooks versus a spreadsheet. You can do a lot of the same stuff that you do in QuickBooks and a spreadsheet, but wouldn’t you rather have a nice interface and some easy buttons to click that make your job way, way easier and do a lot of the work for you and also be able to present it in a way that’s digestible and something you could share with clients? So the visual component in the UI is sort of that last piece. Christian Klepp  54:01 Absolutely. I mean, it’s almost like UX and UI one on one. That’s, that’s pretty much like a big part of, I think what it is you’re trying to build here, right? Clay Ostrom  54:13 Yeah, exactly. It’s just it’s making all of those things that you might do in an LLM just way, way easier. You know, you basically come in, put in your URL and click a button, and you’re getting access to all the data and all the insights and all this stuff so. Christian Klepp  54:29 Absolutely, absolutely okay. And as we wrap this up, this has been a fantastic conversation, by the way, how can the audience start using Smoke Ladder, and how can they get in touch with you if they have questions, and hopefully good questions. Clay Ostrom  54:47 Yeah, so you can, if you go to https://smokeladder.com/ you can, you can try it out. Like I said, you can basically go to the homepage, put in a URL and get started. You don’t even have to create an account to do the initial analysis. But you can create FREE account. You can dig in and see, you know, play around with all the features, and if you use it more, you know, we give you a little bit of a trial period. And if you use it beyond that, then you can pay and continue to use it, but, but you can get a really good flavor of it for free. Christian Klepp  55:16 Fantastic, fantastic. Oh, last question, because, you know, it’s looking me right in the face now, industry categories. How many? How many categories can be analyzed on the platform? Clay Ostrom  55:26 Yeah, yeah. So right now, we have 23 categories in the system currently, which sounds like a lot, but when you start to dig into especially B2B, it’s we will be evolving that and continuing to add more, but currently, there’s 23 different categories of businesses in there. Christian Klepp  55:46 All right, fantastic, fantastic. Clay, man. This has been so awesome. Thank you so much for your time and for your patience and walking us through this, this incredible platform that you’ve built and continue to build. And you know, I’m excited to continue using this as it evolves. Clay Ostrom  56:06 Thank you. Yeah, no. Thanks so much. And you know, if anybody, you know, anybody who tries it out, tests it out, please feel free to reach out. We have, you know, contact info on there. You can also hit me up on LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time there, but I would love feedback, love getting notes, love hearing what’s working, what’s not, all those things. So yeah, anytime I’m always open. Christian Klepp  56:30 All right, fantastic. Once again, Clay, thanks for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Clay Ostrom  56:36 Thanks so much. Talk to you soon. Christian Klepp  56:37 All right. Bye for now.

Waves, river currents, and tidal turbines could help power Canada's clean energy future. Trevor speaks with Elisa Obermann, Executive Director at Marine Renewables Canada, about the promise of marine energy and how countries like Canada are pursuing its potential. They explore how emerging 'blue energy' technologies complement solar and wind, support coastal and Indigenous communities, and move us toward a more sustainable, diverse net-zero grid.   Related links    Marine Renewables Canada: https://marinerenewables.ca/ Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy (FORCE): https://fundyforce.ca/ canmetENERGY: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/science-data/science-research/research-centres/canmetenergy Yuquot Wave Energy Project: https://barkley.ca/project/yuquot-wave-energy-project/ Blind Channel Tidal Energy Demonstration Centre: https://onlineacademiccommunity.uvic.ca/primed/blind-channel/ European Marine Energy Center (EMEC): https://www.emec.org.uk/ Canadian Hydrokinetic Turbine Test Centre: (CHTTC): http://www.chttc.ca/ Elisa Obermann on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisa-obermann-07469245/    Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114    Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en      To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. I have a really great conversation for you today, but before I get to that, I think it's worth a minute or two of time to revisit some first principles people approach the energy conversation from all different backgrounds and angles, and I think it's good to make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to some foundational knowledge before we dive into our topic today, the thing that I want to quickly review is electricity generation. Now don't worry, we're not going to get into an advanced physics level of knowledge on this, but I just want to quickly refresh everyone on the basics. And by the same token, to all of you advanced physics folks out there that are listening, please forgive me if I'm slightly off on a detail or two, as long as I don't mess up the core foundational information. So for the most part, the electricity that we use is primarily generated by spinning a coil of wire around a magnet, or inversely, spinning a magnet inside a coil of wire that causes electrons to move, and that flow of electrons is electricity. For the most part, that combination of coiled wire and magnets and a spinning motion is what makes most of our electricity. There is one major exception to this, which is solar power that doesn't involve spinning anything. But other than that, our major electricity sources utilize that spinning motion, and I'm not including hydrogen fuel cells here as a major source of electricity. So let's keep going with this spinning idea. Then the next question is, how do we make things spin? One very common method is heat. Let's say you burn something, coal or natural gas, for example, which creates heat. You then use that heat to boil water, which makes steam, which you can push at high pressure against turbine blades to make them spin. It's as simple as that. The problem is, burning things creates harmful emissions, which are causing climate change. You can also generate heat with non emitting sources, and a major one, especially here in Ontario, is nuclear power, splitting atoms in a controlled environment, a nuclear reaction generates heat and then the process is the same as previously described. So as complex as a nuclear reactor is its main purpose when it comes to electricity generation, is simply making heat so we can boil water and create steam, et cetera, other than heat. The other way to make things spin is to utilize naturally occurring kinetic energy. So that means something that's already happening out there that carries a lot of force that can push a turbine blade. This would include wind energy, so using the force of the wind to turn large wind turbines and hydro electricity, which uses water being pulled downhill by gravity, so a flowing river or a large dam to turn that turbine the same end results that spinning motion, but no need to create heat to get there. We're almost done with the science lesson, so just bear with me for another few seconds as we think about reducing our carbon emissions, finding ways to generate electricity that don't require burning fossil fuels is really important. Solar definitely has a role to play, but we also need more emissions free ways to spin things. I mentioned some of the more traditional ones, like solar and wind energy, but today's conversation is about some lesser known, emerging methods, which are covered by the term marine renewable energy generation. Phew, it was a long walk to get there, but we finally got here. All of that is to tee up my conversation today with Elisa Obermann, the Executive Director of Marine Renewables Canada. Marine Renewables Canada is the National Association for tidal wave and river current energy in addition to offshore wind. But it's those first three generation strategies that I am particularly interested in as non mainstream ways to spin things. These technologies are known as blue energy, but are often overshadowed by the more common renewable energies that we talked about, solar and wind generation. So I'm really excited to chat with Elisa to shed some light on them. Today. Elisa has served as the executive director of marine renewables Canada since 2015 she's a founding member of both the Electricity Alliance Canada and the Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity. She has also worked for several other organizations that focus on clean technology, tidal energy and the broader renewable energy sector, including Sustainable Development Technology Canada, the Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy. Which you'll hear us talk about today as force and Nova scotia's Department of Energy. Elisa Obermann, welcome to the show.   Elisa Obermann  05:07 Hi. Thank you very much for having me.   Trevor Freeman  05:09 So, let's start off kind of with the basics. Elisa, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this pretty unique space in the energy sector that we're going to dive into a little bit more.   Elisa Obermann  05:22 Sure. So I decided after doing my undergrad, so I'm going kind of way back here, all the way back. Yeah, exactly. I did a degree, a bachelor's degree in English, but I really wanted to get involved in something that would help me do more for the environment, play a role in the future. So I decided to go back to school to do a public policy degree. And the first internship I had was with Nova Scotia Department of Energy, and it was actually on the oil and gas side of things, but my thinking was, well, this will get me eventually to where I want to go and working more in renewables. And that's essentially exactly what happened. And so I started working more and more there on renewable energy. Then started working on the province's marine renewable energy strategy. So it really kind of got me into this kind of path of, you know, working on climate change and renewable energy. And the other thing I will also say is that I grew up in Maine and really close to the ocean, and so after university, I moved to Toronto for a while, and I thought to myself, like, I really just want to do something that takes me back to the ocean. So this really combines both kind of goals I had for myself, in terms of working to protect and help the environment, and then also staying close to the ocean.   Trevor Freeman  06:35 Yeah. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. It's interesting. I talked to a lot of people, obviously, and often the question of career path comes up, and it's funny to see the things that we're passionate about in those early days, no one could guess how that comes to fruition later on in our careers. And you know, I've got some similar stories of wanting to save the world when I was in university and having no idea how the different paths that that would take me on. So great to hear your story. Thanks for sharing that. Tell us now a little bit about your organization, marine renewable Canada, and you know, kind of its vision for how marine renewables will fit into the energy sector.   Elisa Obermann  07:10 Yeah. So marine renewables Canada is a National Association. We're headquartered in Halifax, but we do work across the country, and actually, our beginnings were in British Columbia, really starting around like wave energy, small scale projects. One of our founding members at the time was BC Hydro. We now have over 200 members, and that's really grown just in the past couple years, because our focus is on wave, tidal, river current energy, but also offshore wind. And so there's been a lot of excitement, especially on the East Coast, around offshore wind, but today I'll probably focus mostly on kind of those water resources and how we're working to advance those. Our mandate is really to champion the sector, help with advocacy, engagement, education, and also expand market opportunities. So obviously we do a lot of work around enabling policies that help open up that market, both here, but also globally. But ultimately, what we'd like to see is that marine renewables is playing a role in getting Canada to net zero and right now. I mean, it's a more emerging technology, if you look at wave, tidal and river, but there's a lot of potential for it to play a big role.   Trevor Freeman  08:20 Yeah, so great. And that's a great segue into kind of the next thing I want to talk about on this show. We often talk about, let's call them the more traditional or conventional or well known energy sources, so our kind of traditional fossil fuel combustion, our other renewable sources, solar and wind, and even offshore wind, I think people have a sense of what that is. I mean, wind energy is the same on land as off land. It's just in a different location. But tell us about the types of marine energy that you're talking about. You just referenced some of them here, you know, take us back to basics. What are we talking about when we talk about marine energy?   Elisa Obermann  08:56  Yeah, absolutely. So I would categorize it as four main kinds, but I also will mention that there are some that our association doesn't cover. And I will touch on those, sure, primarily. So we focus on tidal energy. And when I say tidal I don't mean barrages or dams, which were kind of a more prevalent technology, you know, decades ago. What I'm talking about is what we call tidal stream and so essentially, if you think of, you know, what wind turbines look like, it's essentially a wind turbine, but in the water, so it can be developed or deployed incrementally, which is a lot different than what you think of when you think of a dam that has, you know, very long lasting effects. The idea behind title is that you can install it incrementally if there's concerns and with any kind of impacts to the environment, or concerns with, you know, the technology failing, or anything like that, you are able to remove it, or, you know, have maintenance on it fairly quickly. Wave Energy is another one that we focus on. It's the technology is not as far along as tidal in terms of, you know, getting to a commercial state. And there are many different. Different types of concepts, still for Wave technologies, but essentially, they can be placed near shore or further offshore. One of the things that's been, I think, kind of cool to think about is there's discussions around and some prototype type projects around using wave energy to power, for example, oil and gas platforms and doing that kind of, you know, pairing to help decarbonize that sector's energy use, river current. So I will say a lot of people think marine like that doesn't, you know, make sense rivers, you know, not by the ocean. And the reason we look at it and categorize it as a Marine renewable energy is that the technology is very similar to title, and so it's essentially the same technology that's used, except that it is unidirectional. So when you think of the flow of river, it's going one way, whereas tides, the technology would be used as a bi directional because the tides are going in and out. So but otherwise very, very similar. And then we actually also cover offshore wind, which is, of all of those, you know, a more mature marine renewable technology. And as I said, I think probably today I'll talk mostly about some of the earlier stage technologies. Our association doesn't cover a few others, and I just feel like they're worth mentioning, just because they're kind of cool. Also, floating solar is one that is gaining, you know, I think some more popularity, and also people are looking more what you know, how much of an impact it could have, ocean current technology, which would be kind of further offshore, and ocean thermal. And you can imagine, Ocean Thermal hasn't really been talked about a lot in Canada, because you have colder waters. Like, the technology just isn't right, the right fit.   Trevor Freeman  11:35 Got you okay? So I want to, I've got a whole whack of questions I want to understand, make sure I'm understanding the technology correctly. So let's start with Tidal. For Tidal, obviously, just a quick refresher back to, let's say grade 10 science for our listeners. Tides kind of come in and come out. The water moves up and moves down. You're utilizing that flow of water, that movement of water, which happens twice a day. Is that, right? Twice a day, every 12 hours?   Elisa Obermann  12:02 Yep,   Trevor Freeman  12:02 Good, yeah, just making sure I remember my grades and science most part. And you're using that movement of water to turn turbines that are underwater. Describe those for us. Is that, like you kind of related it to wind energy? Is it like a big wind turbine underwater? Does it look the same? Is it similar to that?   Elisa Obermann  12:20 Yeah, I mean, there's still a few different concepts, but essentially, yeah, that's how you could picture in your mind. I will say some are bottom mounted. So as an example, like it might have a gravity base and be anchored to the well, not even anchored. It could just be the weight of it is holding it to the sea floor. Some of the newer tidal technologies are floating. They're kind of like, on a pontoon type device, and they will have kind of the, you know, the turbines connected to that. But essentially, they're, you know, either way, whether it's floating or seabed mounted, it would be capturing the kinetic energy of the tides   Trevor Freeman  12:54 Gotcha, okay. And then for the run of river ones, it's, it's kind of the same thing. Water is flowing. Typically, rivers are flowing downhill, so that water is always moving, and you've got a turbine in there taking advantage of the fact that that water is moving in a situation where there isn't a dam that's using sort of gravity flow. It's, but it's the same idea. It's, it's flowing water that's turning a turbine. Yes, exactly. So then the one that I'm, I'm sort of not entirely clear on, is waves, like, what is the mechanism there? Is it just the same thing? You're just putting it in a location where there's prevailing waves generated by wind or current or whatever.   Elisa Obermann  13:28 Yeah, that one, I will say, is harder to describe, because I've mentioned there's many different concepts for it, but essentially, if you think of waves like so one concept, maybe this will be easy to visualize, would be more of like a buoy type device, and so it's capturing the height of the wave, like that energy coming through. There's some also called like an oyster. So it opens, like the device opens and closes to capture kinetic energy from waves as well. There's a number of different devices when it comes to to wave energy. And I will also say, depending on where, whether it's closer to shore or further offshore, that the strength of the energy from waves is also can be different too. .   Trevor Freeman  14:08 Yeah. So that's actually what, exactly what my next question was is, how far offshore are we placing these things? Are they like, right at the shore's edge? Are they visible? Are they kind of, you know, whatever, 100 metre out? 500 metres out?   Elisa Obermann  14:22 Yeah, in terms of for TIDAL, I mean, it would be closer to shore, but not necessary. I mean, still quite far out. It's not like you're looking at it and you're, you know, few 100 feet away, further. As an example, like in Nova Scotia, the Bay of Fundy has had several tidal deployments, and it depends on where you are. So there was one that was in a area called southwest Nova Scotia, where, if you were in the harbor, there in Briar Island, is where it was. You could see it right there, like it was very, very close, whereas those being deployed further out. So it really just depends on the location, but also potential impacts to other users. You know. Fisheries, all those kinds of things are considered when they're they're just determining location.   Trevor Freeman  15:04 Got you. And one last question, I apologize, I'm totally going off script here, but you've got me all excited about this, and lots of questions. How is this connected back to land? So you must be running cables, you're generating electricity, you're bringing that back to land, and there's some sort of transformation or storage. It's connected to the provincial grid. Like, what's the connection back to the grid look like?   Elisa Obermann  15:28 Exactly, yeah. So you're exactly right. There will be subsea cables that these devices will be connected to. They'll run to shore. Typically, they'll be connected to a substation, which then would be, you know, transmitting that energy electricity, I should say, to a distribution system or the transmission system. So as an example, force has pretty impressive subsea cables that have already been laid about 64 megawatts capacity with those and they built a substation at that site that then connects to the transmission system.   Trevor Freeman  15:59 Cool, very cool, awesome. Thank you for that. Thanks for entertaining my sort of nerdy curiosity there. So tell us about the benefits. Why is this something that the energy sector should be looking at? What are the benefits of this type of generation?   Elisa Obermann  16:14 Good question, and we get asked a lot. I will say, you know, why are we looking at Marine Renewables when we have solar and onshore wind and hydro that are proven and come at a lower cost, but we know we're going to need more electricity, and so the way we look at we can't put all of our eggs in one basket. We need energy diversity. But also marine renewables, such as Tidal and waves, they have some attributes that other renewables don't, so they can be very complementary to other renewable energy, and actually help to bring on other sources of renewables because of that, you know the synergies that they have. So as an example, and you mentioned it at the beginning, tidal is predictable, so we know when the tides are going to come in and out. We can schedule that. I mean, for energy system planning, we would know even 100 years from now, when exactly is that tide coming out? When is it going to be at peak? And so that's one that is very helpful in terms of reliability, predictability, all those things with waves also, I will say, I mean, they're very similar in some ways, because they are created by wind. So it's kind of the same concept, if you think of bringing it onto the grid, but there is an ability to forecast them further out. And one of the interesting things with wave energy, British Columbia had done some work, and I will say, I think it was the University of Victoria A while ago, just looking at the timing of them and when they're the most strong and powerful and consistent. And they found that they were strongest during peak times, like when BC would really need more power, so in the winter, during stormier times, that kind of thing. So those resources can be a very good match with other resources that maybe, you know, sometimes they they're not generating as much power at a given time.   Trevor Freeman  17:56 Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of gets into to where I wanted to go next is, how does this work alongside wind and solar and sort of traditional hydro? You kind of answered that a little bit. We know that we need to grow our greater our energy demand is going to grow. You know, here in Ontario, we're looking at a 75% increase. Across Canada, we're looking at sort of two to three times the growth, and especially clean energy. What sort of percentage or how much of a foothold Do you think marine renewable energy has the capability of meeting of that?   Elisa Obermann  18:30 Yeah, that's a great question. So I will tell you now, I don't have the numbers for that, but I will this January, February. We're actually working on a sector vision, looking exactly at that, like the capacity scenarios, what could be feasible, but really trying to take realistic view of you know, this is how much electricity wave, tidal and river and offshore wind could contribute. But what I will say is that when it comes to Tidal, for example, there has been some resource assessments done in the past. Canada has 40,000 megawatts of potential tidal energy, and that's looking at, you know, the best locations. So it's technical potential, but it's, it's also looking at just feasibility in terms of locations, and what might be, you know, close to grids, that kind of thing. Wave energy is between, I think, 10,000 to 16,000 megawatts, looking at both Pacific and Atlantic coasts and with river current still in early phases of doing some of this work. But Natural Resources Canada can met energy, and also the National Research Council did a pretty extensive resource assessment, and it was around 340 gigawatts of river current, I will say, I mean, that's a lot, right? So there's some factors there that are still, you know, they're working on, trying to understand, so ice, for example, because where rivers, you know, some of the strongest river resources are in areas that are in northern Canada, maybe not feasible. So there's still some more work there to determine what's actually feasible for these technologies.   Trevor Freeman  19:59 Are there this kind of just jogged a question for me. Are there other parts of the world where this technology is, let's say, more mature and greater use, or is Canada kind of leading the fray here, like, where are we compared to other parts of the world?   Elisa Obermann  20:15 So I would say Canada has been pretty well known as a global leader in marine renewable energy, and we started this in kind of the early 2000s starting to look at the resources and the technologies and how we could lead. But this was alongside some other countries that have been also doing that work. So the United Kingdom, Scotland, in particular, France and a number of other European countries. The United States has also put quite a bit of investment in R and D technologies, but the UK probably is the furthest along. And one of the reasons for that, and this is different than what we've done in Canada, is they have targeted funding and programs to really support the sector where I find in Canada, there's been, you know, a lot of great supports by both provincial and federal governments, but most of the time we're competing like, there's not a, you know, a specific program for just marine renewable technology. So I think that's had a bit of an impact even on interacting investment here.   Trevor Freeman  21:13 Gotcha, yeah. So you're trying to fit your projects into a bigger project funding envelope that could cover a bunch of different sort of energy related projects, and you're having to say, Yeah, look, ours fits in here too. Is that fair to say?   Elisa Obermann  21:24 Yeah, exactly, exactly. .   Trevor Freeman  21:27 Cool. Okay, I want to shift a little bit here. We often talk on the show about the sort of relationship between energy and society and communities. So what are some community benefits from marine renewable projects. Is this something that sort of has community ownership over it? Does the community get involved in these projects? Tell us a little bit about how that impacts kind of that local level?   Elisa Obermann  21:52 Yeah, I would say, from what we've seen so far, and this is just with, you know, very early demonstration projects, is that the local supply chain has benefited a lot. So there's been some studies showing that for both tidal and wave projects, you would be using probably about 60% local supply chain to build the project. And that's also just because the technology is massive, like you're not going to be shipping this. It's more cost effective to have most of the work done close to the site. And so as an example, again, Bay of Fundy projects that force to date, and the, you know, the research that force has been doing, and some of the R and D, I believe they've, they've used up to 500 local suppliers, or Canadian suppliers, so that's one of the biggest ones. But also just with local communities, there's been a number of things that we've also seen where they've been very engaged in some of these projects. I mean, obviously local businesses have but there are opportunities for local ownership. I think that the challenge right now is that there's still a lot of risk because the technologies aren't as mature as some others, and so some communities are more hesitant to buy into the projects. That said, there is a project in British Columbia, the Yuquot Wave Energy Project, where the Mowachaht/Muchalaht First Nation there is partnering very closely with a wave energy developer to move ahead with a wave technology that can help power their community. So there's all those kinds of things that I think make it attractive to communities, allows them to have some self sufficiency. And in the case of some of these northern, remote and coastal and indigenous communities, there's also that whole, you know, it's potentially displacing diesel in their community. So that's one of the drivers for them, marine renewables. There's been some, you know, studies around this as well showing that it would actually be lower cost than the diesel fuel that they're using in those communities. So there's that benefit as well.   Trevor Freeman  23:42 Gotcha. Yeah, actually, I've got a question here that I wanted to ask you, and so I'll skip to that one about the impact on especially remote indigenous communities that are not connected to the grid. I've had, actually, a few conversations on this show about how, how we go about helping remote and indigenous communities decarbonize getting off of local diesel generation. Are there other projects you mentioned one? Are there other examples of collaboration here? Do you see this as being sort of a relevant tool for that challenge?   Elisa Obermann  24:12 Yeah. So there's another one that I would also mention that I think is a great example again, University of Victoria in British Columbia had been spearheading what they called, it's the blind channel demonstration center. So Initially it started as working to help a, you know, it was like a remote eco kind of lodge become, you know, fully environmentally friendly, using marine renewables for electricity rather than diesel. But since then, they've actually evolved into more of an initiative to test and demonstrate title technologies there, given that it's a remote location, but working very closely with indigenous partners. And so what I think is cool about that is that it's helping indigenous communities to get involved, but not really requiring them to take on. And know, the risk of financing a project, maintaining a project, but it's giving them the opportunity to get the skills and expertise they would need to eventually, you know, bring Tidal or wave energy into their communities at a, you know, at a later date, when they feel more comfortable with the technology and also learn about how that technology impacts the environment and vice versa. Because I have found with communities like that's one of the things that they're most concerned about, is how, you know, how is this technology going to interact with fish or other marine life or the habitat? And so those kinds of smaller demonstrations really help, especially when they're, you know, hands on, and allow community members to be part of the demonstration.   Trevor Freeman  25:40 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're doing my job for me here, Elisa, you're setting up all my questions perfectly. How does it impact, sort of local marine wildlife? What's the what ecological impact of these we're talking about, fairly complex machinery located in a marine environment. Is there an impact? Has that been studied? Is it comparable it's a sort of a traditional hydro electric dam. What is, what is the impact there?   Elisa Obermann  26:05 So there's been a lot of work in this area, and depending on the location of the project, and that's kind of the caveat I give with us, it can be easier to understand what the impact is. So as an example, in Scotland, I mentioned there's, they've done a lot of work with marine renewables. There's a test center there called the European Marine Energy Center, EMAC, and they have very high flow tidal sites, similar to what we have in Canada. And they're able to use cameras and other equipment to really see exactly what's happening at the site. And so a number of researchers, you know, over the last couple of decades, have been doing environmental monitoring, collecting data, and what we've seen to date is, for the most part, fish and marine life avoid these devices. There's also been research done on electromagnetic fields sound, but I think the biggest concern that people still have is collision with the devices, and what could happen there. Now, coming to Canada, we're in a bit of a different situation. So at the forest site in the Bay of Fundy, you know, there has been quite a bit of environmental monitoring and research done, but the water is very different than what you'd see in Scotland. At this site EMAC, where in the Bay of Fundy, there's a lot of sediment. It's very it's a higher flow site even. So there's, you know, a lot of turbulence, and the environmental monitoring equipment there that you know that exists, it just can't gather all of that information at the site like you can't use a camera and see exactly where fish may be going. So we can't say 100% no, there has been no, you know, fish collisions. What has been happening is that force and government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia, and I think also indigenous partners and some of the local researchers in Nova Scotia. So Acadia University, for example, have been partnering, and just recently announced a project to be able to develop those environmental monitoring systems that can work in the Bay of Fundy. And so those will be something, you know, once that's solved, that knowledge and those systems and that technology can be used anywhere in the world to give us a better idea of exactly what are those environmental interactions. But I will say to date, the body of research does show that there hasn't been any significant interactions at this point, but I'm always hesitant to say there hasn't been any, because we can't say that yet.   Trevor Freeman  28:21 Yeah, sure, fair enough. It kind of raises another question in my mind about even just servicing the equipment, or the longevity of the equipment. I mean, in a in a solar field, if you've got a bad panel, you go and you change a panel. A wind turbine, at the very least, is above ground. Not that it's easy to change a blade on a turbine. But what is it like servicing and maintaining the equipment when it's out in a marine environment and underwater? How easy is it? Or is that a challenge?   Elisa Obermann  28:51 Yeah, it's a very good point. It's definitely more challenging than onshore technologies, because you also have, you know, weather windows. So with Tidal, for example, even though you know what stage of the tide is in, plays a huge role in when they can go out and maintain or and service the equipment. And so that's one of the reasons these technologies bring in higher cost for the project overall. Obviously. The other thing I would also mention is just that with both tidal and wave like just depending on what if it's a floating technology versus seabed mounted also makes a difference. So what we've seen is some of these technologies are now evolving to be floating, and again, one of the reasons for that is this whole operations and maintenance piece, because it's obviously a lot easier to bring a vessel out there, get onto the pontoon and be able to service it, versus a whole diving operation, or ROV to go underwater to service it.   Trevor Freeman  29:48 Gotcha, yeah, tow it back to the dock and work on it at the dock.   Elisa Obermann  29:51 Yeah, awesome, exactly.   Trevor Freeman  29:52 Okay, let's switch gears a little bit here and talk about the policy, and let's say regulatory. Worry landscape around this. I've got a question here on funding coming up too, but as our listeners will know, and as you certainly know, energy is a very regulated sector, lots of policy around it. What are some of the policy challenges? Or are there policy challenges when it comes to deploying marine renewables?   Elisa Obermann  30:20 Yeah, I would say, because they're emerging technology, that's actually been one of the biggest challenges. So when we look at legislation in Canada, I mean, it never a lot of it's very old, right? So it never envisioned that there'd be these clean technologies coming up in the market that would they would need to govern and regulate. We have had a lot of challenges with the Fisheries Act, again, just because of that, it never envisioned that it would be regulating an emerging technology. And so, I mean, luckily with that, we did a lot of work with federal and provincial governments, and we have found a path forward that had been an issue in terms of, like the regulatory barriers being created by the legislation. The other one, I would say, is just these projects are small at the moment, right? So we're talking kilowatts, maybe a couple megawatts. And what we found is the, you know, just the regulatory efficiency is not necessarily there. So applying regulation will look at it just as the same scale as any type of project, you know, could be a very large project. So I think what you know, we would ask is that regulators consider the scale of the project and the regulatory processes and requirements should balance that scale of the project, you know, with what the requirements are.   Trevor Freeman  31:34 Yeah. Do you see a world where I'm gonna assume the answer is yes to this, but I'm gonna ask anyway, do you see a world where this is just another option that utilities and energy policy makers have in their toolbox as a way to procure clean energy, that this just becomes one of an item on the menu with solar and wind, et cetera? Are we gonna get to that point? Do you see that happening in the sort of near, medium term future.   Elisa Obermann  32:01 I think we can get to that point. But what it's going to require is that there are more deployments, more demonstrations, and regulators will really need to look at those early projects of exactly that demonstrations, and not treat them as commercial projects. And the reason I say this is because to get costs down so that they can be looked at in comparison to onshore and solar, we need to see a lot more deployment like when you think of a cost curve for any technology, you have to get to that scale and volume before the costs start coming down. It's some time before we get to that point, but it's absolutely possible. It just requires the right supports.   Trevor Freeman  32:38 Got you. On the funding side. We talked about this a little bit earlier, about how you're kind of using existing funding programs. There aren't necessarily dedicated programs for this kind of technology or these projects. Are there other funding sources, like, are you attracting investors into this? Is there, you know, more public money going into this? What's the funding structure around some of these projects?   Elisa Obermann  33:02 Yeah, so,  I think to date, a lot of developers have and when I say developers, I mean the technology and project developers. But with marine renewables, sometimes it ends up being one in the same, because technology developers end up being the ones developing their projects. I think a lot of them are looking for two things at this time, so something to cover capital costs. So grants, whatever it might be, and there has, there have been a number of funding programs that the federal government has applied that have been quite useful for that, and then they usually look for something on the back end of the project once it's built. So what I mean by that is feed in tariff, something to help with their return on investment. And that seems to be kind of the right recipe for investment certainty at the moment, the other thing that I think Canada's recently done that's very helpful for this sector are the investment tax credits. And so our hope is actually that those get extended, because right now, where the sector is, and this also comes into play for offshore wind, is that they end, you know, in that 2033 timeline, 2034 I can't remember, whereas a lot of these projects wouldn't be online at that point. And so we're looking for a bit of a longer runway there. And I think tax credits are a very good tool that can help, you know, with attracting investment for these projects.   Trevor Freeman  34:16 So looking ahead, I mean, you've kind of touched on this in a few different spots, but to sum it up, what's next on the horizon for this technology and these projects? Are we expecting kind of innovation on the technological side, or is the focus still on the sort of funding and regulatory side right now? What can we expect for those of us who are going to maybe keep an eye on this moving forward?   Elisa Obermann  34:40 Yeah, it's a bit of both, I will say. So I mentioned that the tidal sector was having some challenges with the Fisheries Act a number of years ago, and that really kind of created a lull in development, but also in investment attraction. As a result of that, federal and provincial governments established a Tidal Task Force to. Look at the exact issues around you know, where the barriers are with the Fisheries Act, and then the outcome of that has been a new path under the Fisheries Act to support projects. And so there are developers that will be going through that new or revised, staged approach, is what they've been calling it. Time will tell, obviously, if that process works, but from what we've heard from developers, it does give them more certainty, because it essentially covers the entire project, rather than going through a device by device by device approach. And so that's on the regulatory side. I think if that goes well, it will give a lot of confidence to private sector and developers that this can move ahead, but it will also ensure that regulators know that they have an approach that is working, but still having those safeguards to ensure that you know they're protecting the environment and safety of communities and others on the technology side. So it's kind of like they go together hand in hand. So I mean, once we get through that process, I think there'll be more deployments, and we'll see the ability to test more technologies improve them. But to date, and where we are with especially with tidal energy, think the technologies are in, you know, they're in further generation. So we're not first generation technology anymore, and they've come a long way, and some of that's been through deployments and demonstration in other countries, Scotland, for example. So what I would envision happening is seeing some of those technologies tested in Canada, and then being able to, you know, deploy more than one and then, you know, multi device development.   Trevor Freeman  36:31 Great. One fine, maybe final question, although I keep thinking of things as we talk here, but you know, obviously this is very focused on coastal regions. You've mentioned, BC and sort of Nova Scotia where you're based. Do you envision, especially on the river side of things? Do you envision this as a technology that can be deployed kind of even in the interior provinces? Like, are we going to see river marine renewables in Saskatchewan, for example, or Ontario, where I'm based? Like, are you having those conversations? Or are we like, we're not quite ready for that yet, because we're still working on the technology piece.   Elisa Obermann  37:03 Yeah, I'm so glad that you asked that, because that's part I actually have missed in some of this. So there have been river current technologies deployed in Manitoba already. So the University of Manitoba has the Canadian hydro kinetic turbine Test Center. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but they have been working with a number of river current developers. They've had several successful demonstrations. And there are also some companies that are that have been members of ours, that have deployed in other areas of Canada as well. In the past, even in Quebec, there's been some deployments. And so I think when it comes to river, you know, one of the challenges is there's, well, it's not a challenge. There's a huge opportunity there. It's just not very well known. And there are things like the ice, I think people are concerned about it being potentially closer to shore, just like the navigational issues, things like that, fish passage is different than what you'd see in tidal so there hasn't been as much of a focus on that. So it's earlier stage in terms of kind of that some of those environmental and social questions, but the technology is, you know, very close to where you'd see title at this point.   Trevor Freeman  38:12 Got you very cool we have so as our listeners know, I work for Hydro Ottawa, and Hydro Ottawa, parent company, owns the run-of-the-river generation dam here, right in the center of Ottawa, Chaudière Falls, and it's really fascinating. Now, it's not the same technology, of course. It's a it's a run of the river gravity fed dam, but the complexity around so the North American eel is an endangered species that's particularly impacted by dams and the technologies that we've had to put in place for that. It's really fascinating. Just kind of, I'm rambling a bit here, but all the different pieces that come together to make what should be a fairly straightforward thing, like use water to spin turbine, it's so much more complex than that. So I can appreciate that as you branch out into new areas, new technologies or new deployments of that, all those new complexities have to be figured out and worked on. But glad to hear that that's in the future, that that's on the horizon, because I think this is great, and it'd be cool to see more of this.   Elisa Obermann  39:08 Yeah, agreed. We're hoping we're getting there. It's taken time. I think things haven't gone as quickly as we had hoped. But you know, there's been a lot of learnings, lessons learned that have fed into where we are now, and I think just with what we're seeing, you know, with with government support, but also communities getting more excited about it, we'll see some real progress in the coming years.   Trevor Freeman  39:30 Okay, Elisa, we always wrap up our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. Some people love them, some people feel like they're on the hot seat, but I'm going to dive in anyway and fire these at you. So what is a book that you've read recently that you think everyone should read?   Elisa Obermann  39:45 Haven't read this one recently, but it kind of changed my thinking on everything. And I loved it, "Sapiens", I thought was great just with kind of the, you know, the history of humankind, and just made me rethink a lot of the things that. In terms of how society is structured and why we do the things that we do. Thought it was great, and if people haven't read it, I would highly recommend,   Trevor Freeman  40:06 Yes, very cool. That's a great book, and you're not the first one to mention that on the show. That's awesome. So same question. But for a movie or a show.   Elisa Obermann  40:14 There's probably a few that I would recommend, but really, I think the one that struck me the most recently, and I haven't watched a lot of movies recently, so I'll also say that, but just in the past couple years, was "Barbie". I loved it. It actually surprised me that, like, I had this totally different impression of what it was going to be, and just the kind of, you know, the key messages and things that it brought out, I thought were great. Like it was, it was very well done.   Trevor Freeman  40:38 Yeah, absolutely. It was one of those kind of cultural things that which seemed like it was going to be just another movie, and then there was some buzz behind it. And it got to the point where we, like, we did a family outing to go and, like, watch that movie with our kids, who were kind of at about the age where they can start thinking about some of these things. So it was pretty fun.   Elisa Obermann  40:56 Yeah, we did the same. We all wore pink. We really got on the bandwagon. I but it's great because as adults, you know, there were some really important things in it, but then also kids could relate, like it was a fun movie for them. So, yeah, it was good.   Trevor Freeman  41:09 Yeah, absolutely. My kids spent a long time, and still it'll come up singing the I'm Just Ken song that happens around our house often that song comes up, which, you know, wears on you after a while. Okay, so it sounds like you travel a little bit. So if someone offers you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Elisa Obermann  41:28 There's lots of places I would like to go, but I think probably Greece is where I would choose to go. I mean, I've been to Europe quite a bit for work and just also, you know, for fun. But my daughter has been saying for a really long time that she wants to go to Greece. She's only 10, so I've also kind of wondered where she got this idea, but I've also always wanted to go. So I think that would be my, my first choice.   Trevor Freeman  41:51 Very cool. I my wife and I honeymooned in Greece. It's a long time ago, but we had had a great time. It's gorgeous.   Elisa Obermann  41:56 Oh, amazing.   Trevor Freeman  41:58 Who is someone that you admire?   Elisa Obermann  41:59 That would probably be one of the tougher ones of these questions. Well, I'll say so generally, when I think about this kind of question, it's like, what are the kind of characteristics or qualities of someone that I would admire? And so I often look at how other women are, you know, conducting themselves, working in business world or in politics or whatnot. And I think what I admire most in some of those women is just the fact that they lift other women up. They're not afraid to be who they are and take a stand on things they really believe in. I think something I also really admire are women that are willing to take risks to build their business, and also in times of you know, where there's challenges or conflicts taking the high road. And so with all that said, you know, when I think about this, and I don't know if this sounds too cliche, but I think Michelle Obama's great, like when she said, 'When they go low, you go high', I just thought that was such an important message. And I actually share that with my daughter all the time when she's having trouble in school. I'm like, think of it this way. So she is a woman that I really admire. I think she's just done some wonderful things for women and just for people in general.   Trevor Freeman  43:08 Yeah, absolutely. And again, you're not the first one to mention that on the show, and I don't think that's because it's cliche. I think it's because you're right, absolutely fascinating person and leader, and just the strength of character is very evident, for sure. So, yeah, great answer. So final question, what's something about the energy sector that you're particularly excited about?   Elisa Obermann  43:29 Well, I would say, I mean, things are moving quite quickly, but also not never quick enough, yeah, and, but I think we have a lot to be excited about. So when I think about when I started my career in the energy sector, we were literally just starting to talk about renewable energy like it was a new thing, and things have evolved quite a bit since then, obviously, but in Atlantic Canada, where I'm based, so I'm in Nova Scotia, one of the things we've seen just in the past number of years has been An incredible evolution to a lot of projects being indigenous owned, indigenous LED. And I just think that's amazing so, you know, and I think that's going to continue. And it just shows, you know, that these communities are taking a lead. They're interested in ensuring that we're using clean energy, and it's also empowering them to, you know, have that ownership be able to provide investment to these projects, but it's been a big change. And so what I'm looking forward to, I guess, is what I'm saying here is that that continues, and we see more indigenous led projects, more indigenous participation in those projects, whether it be ownership, but also we've been actually working with a lot of indigenous businesses and suppliers that can get involved. And I think that will really change the energy sector. Actually, it's a lot different model from what we thought about, you know, few decades ago.   Trevor Freeman  44:49 Yeah, absolutely, I think. And again, it comes up so often on the show, the idea that there's the technological side of energy, but the societal side, and that interaction with the actual. Well stakeholders in local communities and indigenous communities. And you know, the people who are most impacted by this from a usage of energy perspective, but also a production and generation perspective. And of course, the in between, which is the transmission and distribution side of things, that's where the really interesting stories happen, and the opportunities for better collaboration and improving how we do things certainly happen. So I'm totally on the same page as you.   Elisa Obermann  45:25 Yeah, I think at the end, I always think of this like everything in the end is about people so and there's that factor that we we sometimes lose in all of this, but in the end, it comes down to the people who are involved or impacted.   Trevor Freeman  45:38 Absolutely. Elisa, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It's been great to learn more about this sector, which doesn't have enough attention on it. So happy to kind of have you explain to us and talk us through some of the exciting things that are happening. Really appreciate it.   Elisa Obermann  45:52 Yeah, no. Thank you so much for the opportunity and the time. And like you said, a lot of people don't know about the sector, so I really appreciate the you know, the time spent with you to chat a little more about it. Thank you   Trevor Freeman  46:02 For sure. We'll check back in, maybe in a year or two, and see kind of how, how far things have come.   Elisa Obermann  46:07 Yeah, that'd be great. I'd appreciate that.   Trevor Freeman  46:09 Awesome. Thanks. Elisa, take care.   Elisa Obermann  46:11 Thank you.   Trevor Freeman  46:13 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at thinkenergy@hydroottawa.com.  

Tomi Lahren, Host of Tomi Lahren is Fearless on OutKick, Co-Host of The Big Weekend Show, and Fox News Contributor joined The Guy Benson Show today to break down the release of the Epstein files and why Democrats badly miscalculated what they assumed would be a Trump "gotcha" moment. Benson and Lahren walked through why the files are far more likely to boomerang on Democrat elites like Bill Clinton and Larry Summers, and weighed in on Rep. Jasmine Crockett's bizarre attempt to blame Republicans for donations linked to an entirely different Jeffrey Epstein. Tomi also reacted to Kamala Harris resurfacing in Tennessee to campaign for the state's "AOC," and explained why she is fully confident that a deep red Tennessee will never elect a politician that far left. Listen to the full interview below! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Student loans gotcha down? You're not alone — but you don't have to stay stuck! In this episode, we're talking about real ways to get through college debt free, even if you're already in debt or don't qualify for many scholarships. I'll share practical ways to get help in college, cut costs, and find creative options to get out of debt and finish school strong — even without scholarships!    LET'S GOOOOOO!!   Other episodes mentioned today: Step 1: 119 - Devos: God is in the Details of Your College Life! - Exodus 2:1-10 Step 2: 146 - This New Year's Resolution Has Me on Track to Become a Millionaire! Only Takes 20 Mins a Week (: Step 3: 7 - Get Paid to Take Notes, Do Homework, and Workout! Effective Multi-Tasking for a Debt-Free Degree Step 4: 203 - 5 Tips to Find an Extra $2200 in Your College Budget!   P.S. Join me on... Facebook --> Christian College Girl Community ~ Scholarships & Graduate Debt-Free | Facebook Instagram --> @moneyandmentalpeace Email --＞ info@moneyandmentalpeace.com   Get scholarships and pay for college without student loans! Are you worried about how to pay for college? Stressed because it's so expensive? Are you having trouble finding scholarships, or all you find don't apply to you? Overwhelmed with all things school and money? Welcome fam! This podcast will help you find and get scholarships, avoid student loans and maybe even graduate college debt-free! Hey! I'm Kara, a Christian entrepreneur, amateur snowboarder, and scholarship BEAST! I figured out how to not only finish college debt-free, but I even had $10k left over in the bank after graduation. (& btw, my parents weren't able to help me financially either!) During school, I was worried about paying for next semester. I couldn't find scholarships that worked specifically for me, and didn't know how to get started while juggling homework and keeping up with ALL.THE.THINGS. But dude, I learned there was a better way! With God's direction, I tested out of classes, and found the perfect scholarships, grants, internships, and weird budget hacks that helped me go from overwhelmed to debt-free with $10k in the bank–all with God on my side. ... and I'm here to walk you through this, too. If you are ready to find scholarships specific to you, learn to manage your money well, and have enough money to kill it at college, this pod is for you! So grab your cold brew and TI-89, and listen in on the most stress-free and debt-free class you've ever attended: this is Money and Mental Peace.

The path to progressing as a leader isn't always linear. SUMMARY Col. (Ret.) Mike Ott shows how a childhood dream can evolve into a lifetime of impact—from commanding in uniform to leading innovation in healthcare and national defense. Hear more on Long Blue Leadership. Listen now!   SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN  |  FACEBOOK   MIKE'S LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS A leader worth his or her salt should be comfortable not being the smartest person in the room. Striving for a lack of hubris is essential in leadership. Setting a clear vision is a fundamental leadership skill. Moving people without authority is crucial for effective leadership. Resource management is key to achieving organizational goals. Acknowledging what you don't know is a strength in leadership. Effective leaders focus on guiding their teams rather than asserting dominance. Leadership is about influencing and inspiring others. A successful mission requires collaboration and shared vision. True leadership is about empowering others to succeed.   CHAPTERS 00:00: Early Inspiration 06:32: Academy Years 13:17: Military Career Transition 21:33: Financial Services Journey 31:29: MOBE and Healthcare Innovation 40:12: Defense Innovation Unit 48:42: Philanthropy and Community Impact 58:11: Personal Growth and Leadership Lessons   ABOUT MIKE OTT BIO Mike Ott is the Chief Executive Officer of MOBĒ, a U.S.-based company focused on whole-person health and care-management solutions. He became CEO in April 2022, taking the helm to lead the company through growth and operational excellence following a distinguished career in both the military and corporate sectors.  A graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Mike served as a Colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserves before shifting into financial services and healthcare leadership roles including private wealth management at U.S. Bank and executive positions with UnitedHealth Group/Optum. His leadership ethos emphasizes alignment, acceleration, and human potential, building cultures where teams can thrive and leveraging data-driven models to improve health outcomes.   CONNECT WITH MIKE LinkedIn MOBE CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org Ted Robertson | Producer:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org    Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org      ALL PAST LBL EPISODES  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Col. (Ret.) Mike Ott '85  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99   FULL TRANSCRIPT Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 A quick programming note before we begin this episode of Long Blue Leadership: This episode will be audio-only, so sit back and enjoy the listen. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of '99. Today, on Long Blue Leadership, we welcome Col. (Ret.) Mike Ott, Class of 1985, a leader whose vision was sparked at just 9 years old during a family road trip past the Air Force Academy. That childhood dream carried him through a 24-year Air Force career, culminating in retirement as a colonel and into a life of leadership across business, innovation and philanthropy. Mike is the CEO of MOBE, a groundbreaking company that uses data analytics and a revolutionary pay-for-results model to improve health outcomes while reducing costs. He also serves as a senior adviser to the Defense Innovation Unit, supporting the secretary of defense in accelerating commercial innovation for national security. A member of the Forbes Councils, Mike shares his expertise with leaders around the world. A former Falcon Foundation trustee and longtime supporter of the Academy, Mike has given generously his time, talents and resources to strengthen the Long Blue Line. His story is one of innovation and service in uniform, in the marketplace and in his community. Mike, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you here.   Mike Ott 1:29 Naviere, thanks a ton. I'm glad to be here. Naviere Walkewicz 1:31 Yes, yes. Well, we're really excited. I mean, you're here for your 40th reunion.   Mike Ott 1:35 Yeah, it's crazy.   Naviere Walkewicz1:37 You came right in, and we're so pleased that you would join us here first for this podcast.   Mike Ott 1:39 Right on. Thanks for the time.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:41 Absolutely. Well, let's jump right in, because not many people can say at 9 years old they know what they want to do when they grew up, but you did. Mike Ott 1:48 Yeah. I guess some people can say it; might not be true, but for me, it's true, good or bad. And goodness gracious, right? Here for my 40th reunion, do the math team, and as a 9-year-old, that was 1972, And a lot was going on in the world in 1972 whether it was political unrest, Vietnam and all of that, and the Academy was in the thick of it. And so we had gone — It was our first significant family vacation. My father was a Chicago policeman. We drove in the 1968 Buick LaSabre, almost straight through. Stopped, stayed at a Holiday Inn, destination Colorado, simply, just because nobody had ever seen the mountains before. That was why. And we my parents, mom, mom and dad took myself. I have two younger sisters, Pikes Peak, Academy, Garden of the Gods, Royal Gorge. And I remember noon meal formation, and the bell going off. Guys at the time — we hadn't had women as cadets at that point in time — running out in their flight suits as I recall lining up ready to go. And for me, it was the energy, right, the sense of, “Wow, this is something important.” I didn't know exactly how important it was, but I knew it was important, and I could envision even at that age, there was they were doing good, Naviere Walkewicz 3:21 Wow. Nine years old, your family went on vacation, and it just struck you as this is important and something that I want to do. So what did that conversation look like after that experience that you had as a 9-year-old and kind of manifest this in yourself? How did that go with your parents? Mike Ott 3:36 Well, I didn't say too much about it, as I was in grammar school, but as high school hit, you know, I let my folks know what my plans were, and I had mom and dad — my mother's still alive, my father passed about a year ago. Very, very good, hard-working, ethical people, but hadn't gone to college, and we had been told, “Look, you know, you need to get an education.” They couldn't. I wish they had. They were both very, very, very bright, and so I knew college was a plan. I also knew there wasn't a lot of money to pay for it. So I'm certain that that helped bake in a few things. But as I got into high school, I set my sights. I went to public high school in Chicago, and I remember freshman year walking into my counselor's office, and said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy,” and he kind of laughed.   Naviere Walkewicz 3:21 Really?   Mike Ott 3:22 Well, we had 700 kids in my class, and maybe 40% went on to college, right? And the bulk of them went to community college or a state school. I can count on one hand the number of folks that went to an academy or an Ivy League school or something of that. So it was it was around exposure. It had nothing to do with intelligence. It was exposure and just what these communities were accustomed to. A lot of folks went into the trades and pieces like that. So my counselor's reaction wasn't one of shock or surprise insofar as that's impossible. It was, “We haven't had a lot of people make that commitment this early on, and I'm glad to help.”   Naviere Walkewicz 5:18 Oh, I love that.   Mike Ott 5:19 Which is wonderful, and what I had known at the time, Mr. Needham...   Naviere Walkewicz 5:23 You Remember his name?   Mike Ott 5:24 Yeah, he was in the Navy Reserves. He was an officer, so he got the joke. He got the joke and helped me work through what classes to take, how to push myself. I didn't need too much guidance there. I determined, “Well, I've got to distinguish myself.” And I like to lean in. I like a headwind, and I don't mind a little bit of an uphill battle, because once you get up there, you feel great. I owe an awful lot to him. And, not the superintendent, but the principal of our school was a gentleman named Sam Ozaki, and Sam was Japanese American interned during World War II as a young man, got to of service age and volunteered and became a lieutenant in the Army and served in World War II in Europe, right, not in Asia. So he saw something in me. He too became an advocate. He too became someone that sought to endorse, support or otherwise guide me. Once I made that claim that I was going to go to the Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 6:30 Wow. So you mentioned something that really stuck with me. You said, you know, you didn't mind kind of putting yourself out there and doing the hard things, because you knew when you got to the top it was going to feel really great. Was that something you saw from your father? Was that something, there are key leaders in your life that emulated that? Or is that just something that you always had in yourself? Mike Ott 6:51 I would say there's certainly an environmental element to it — how I was raised, what I was exposed to, and then juxtaposition as to what I observed with other family members or other parts of the community where things didn't work out very well, right? And, you know, I put two and two together. y father demonstrated, throughout his entire career what it means to have a great work ethic. As did mom and, you know, big, tough Chicago cop for 37 years. But the other thing that I learned was kindness, and you wouldn't expect to learn that from the big, tough Chicago cop, but I think it was environment, observing what didn't occur very often and how hard work, if I apply myself, can create outcomes that are going to be more fulfilling for me. Naviere Walkewicz 7:48 Wow, you talked about kindness. How did you see kindness show up in your journey as a cadet at the Air Force Academy? Or did you? Mike Ott 7:58 Yeah, gosh, so I remember, started in June of 1981, OK, and still connected with many of the guys and women that with whom I went to basic training and all that. The first moment of kindness that I experienced that it was a mutual expression, but one where I recognized, “Wow, every one of us is new here. None of us has a real clue.” We might have some idea because we had somebody had a sibling or a mother that was in the military or father that went to the academy at the time, but none of us really knew, right? We were knuckleheads, right? Eighteen years old. Maybe there were a couple of prior-enlisted folks. I don't recall much of that, but I having gone to a public high school in Chicago, where we had a variety of different ethnicities. I learned how to just understand people for who they are, meet them for who they are, and respect every individual. That's how I was raised, and that's how I exhibited myself, I sought to conduct myself in high school. So I get to the Academy, and you're assigned, you know, the first couple three nights, the first few weeks before you go to Jacks Valley, you're assigned. It was all a alphabetical, and my roommate was an African American fellow named Kevin Nixon. All right, my God, Kevin Nixon, and this guy, he was built. I mean, he was rock solid, right? And he had that 1000-yard stare, right? Very intimidating. And I'm this, like, 6-foot-tall, 148-pound runner, like, holy dork, right? And I'm assigned — we're roommates, and he just had a very stoicism, or a stoic nature about him. And I remember, it was our second night at the Academy, maybe first night, I don't quite recall, and we're in bed, and it's an hour after lights out, and I hear him crying, and like, well, what do you do? Like, we're in this together. It was that moment, like we're both alone, but we're not right. He needs to know that he's not alone. So I walked around and went over his bed, and I said, “Hey, man, I miss my mom and dad too. Let's talk. And we both cried, right? And I'll tell you what, he and I were pals forever. It was really quite beautiful. And what didn't happen is he accepted my outreach, right? And he came from a very difficult environment, one where I'm certain there was far more racial strife than I had experienced in Chicago. He came from Norfolk, Virginia, and he came from — his father worked in the shipyards and really, really tough, tough, tough background. He deserved to be the Academy. He was a great guy, very bright, and so we became friends, and I tried to be kind. He accepted that kindness and reciprocated in ways where he created a pretty beautiful friendship. Naviere Walkewicz 7:48 Oh, my goodness. Thank you for sharing that story. And you got me in the feels a little bit, because I remember those nights, even you know me having family members that went through the Academy. There's just something about when you're in it yourself, and in that moment, it's raw.   Mike Ott 11:13 Raw is a good word. Naviere Walkewicz 11:15 Oh, thank you for that. So you're at the Academy and you end up doing 24 years. I don't mean to, like, mash all that into one sentence, but let's talk… Mike Ott 11:22 I didn't do very much. It was the same year repeated 24 times over. Like, not a very good learner, right? Not a very good learner. Naviere Walkewicz 11:30 Yeah, I was gonna ask, you know, in that journey, because, had you planned to do a career in the Air Force? Mike Ott 11:36 Well, I didn't know, right? I went in, eyes wide open, and my cumulative time in the Air Force is over 24 but it was only it was just shy of seven active duty, and then 22, 23, in the Reserves, right? I hadn't thought about the Reserves, but I had concluded, probably at the, oh, maybe three-year mark that I wanted to do other things. It had nothing to do with disdain, a sense of frustration or any indignation, having gone to the Academy, which I'm very, very proud of, and it meant an awful lot to who I am. But it was, “Wait, this is, this is my shot, and I'm going to go try other things.” I love ambiguity, I'm very curious. Have a growth mindset and have a perhaps paradoxical mix of being self-assured, but perhaps early on, a bit too, a bit too, what's the word I was thinking of? I wrote this down — a bit too measured, OK, in other words, risk taking. And there were a few instances where I realized, “Hey, man, dude, take some risk. What's the downside? And if it isn't you, who else?” So it was that mindset that helped me muscle through and determine that, coupled with the fact that the Air Force paid for me to go to graduate school, they had programs in Boston, and so I got an MBA, and I did that at night. I had a great commander who let me take classes during the day when I wasn't traveling. It was wonderful. It was there that I was exposed to elements of business and in financial services, which ultimately drew me into financial services when I separated from active duty. Naviere Walkewicz 13:17 Well, I love that, because first you talked about a commander that saw, “How can I help you be your best version of yourself?” And I think the other piece of financial service, because I had to dabble in that as well — the second word is service. And so you've never stopped serving in all the things that you've done. So you took that leap, that risk. Is that something that you felt developed while you're at the Academy, or it's just part of your ethos. Mike Ott 13:41 It developed. It matured. I learned how to apply it more meaningfully at the Academy after a couple, three moments, where I realized that I can talk a little bit about mentoring and then I can come back to that, but mentoring — I don't know, I don't recall having heard that term as a mechanism for helping someone develop. I'm sure we used it when I was a cadet at the Academy and out of the Academy, and having been gone through different programs and banking and different graduate programs, the term comes up an awful lot. You realize, wow, there's something there helping the next generation, but also the reciprocity of learning from that generation yourself. I didn't really understand the whole mentoring concept coming out of Chicago and getting here, and just thought things were very hierarchical, very, very command structure, and it was hit the standards or else. And that that's not a bad mindset, right? But it took me a little while to figure out that there's a goodness factor that comes with the values that we have at the Academy, and it's imbued in each one of you know, service excellence, all of those pieces. But for the most part, fellow cadets and airmen and women want to help others. I mean, it's in service. It's in our DNA. Man that blew right past me. I had no idea, and I remember at one point I was entering sophomore year, and I was asked to be a glider instructor. I'd done the soaring and jumping program over the summer, and like, “Hey, you know you're not too bad at glider. You want to be an instructor?” At the time, that was pretty big deal, yeah, glider instructors. Like, “Yeah, no, I'm not going to do that, you know? I've got to study. Like, look at my GPA.” That didn't really matter. “And I'm going to go up to Boulder and go chase women.” Like, I was going to meet women, right? So, like, but I didn't understand that, that that mechanism, that mentoring mechanism, isn't always bestowed upon a moment or a coupling of individuals. There are just good people out there that see goodness in others that want to help them through that. I had no clue, but that was a turning point for me.   Naviere Walkewicz 15:56 Because you said no.   Mike Ott 15:58 I said no, right? And it was like what, you know, a couple months later, I remember talking with somebody like, “Yep, swing and a miss,” right? But after that, it changed how I was going to apply this self-assuredness, not bravado, but willingness to try new things, but with a willingness to be less measured. Why not? Trust the system. Trust the environment that you're in, the environment that we're in, you were in, I was in, that we're representing right now, it is a trusted environment. I didn't know that. And there were a lot of environments when I was being raised, they weren't trusted environments. And so you have a sort of mental callous mindset in many ways, and that that vigilance, that sense of sentinel is a good protection piece, but it prevents, it prevents... It doesn't allow for the membrane to be permeated, right? And so that trust piece is a big deal. I broke through after that, and I figured it out, and it helped me, and it helped me connect a sense of self-assuredness to perhaps being less measured, more willing to take ambiguity. You can be self-assured but not have complete belief in yourself, OK? And it helped me believe in myself more. I still wish I'd have been glider instructor. What a knucklehead. My roommate wound up becoming one. Like, “You, son of a rat, you.”   Naviere Walkewicz 17:29 So tell me, when did the next opportunity come up where you said yes, and what did that look like in your journey? Mike Ott 17:36 I was a lieutenant. I was a lieutenant, and I was looking for a new role. I was stationed at Hanscom Field, and I was working at one program office, and I bumped — I was the athletic officer for the base with some other folks, and one of the colonels was running a different program, and he had gotten to know me and understand how I operated, what I did, and he said, “Hey, Ott, I want you to come over to my program.” And I didn't know what the program was, but I trusted him, and I did it blindly. I remember his name, Col. Holy Cross. And really good guy. And yeah, I got the tap on the shoulder. Didn't blink. Didn't blink. So that was just finishing up second lieutenant. Naviere Walkewicz 18:26 What a lesson. I mean, something that stuck with you as a cadet, and not that it manifested in regret, but you realized that you missed that opportunity to grow and experience and so when it came around again, what a different… So would you say that as you progress, then you know, because at this point you're a lieutenant, you know, you took on this new role, what did you learn about yourself? And then how did that translate to the decision to move from active duty to the Reserve and into… Mike Ott 18:56 You'll note what I didn't do when I left active duty was stay in the defense, acquisition, defense engineering space. I made a hard left turn…   Naviere Walkewicz 19:13 Intentionally.   Mike Ott 19:14 Intentionally. And went into financial services. And that is a hard left turn away from whether it's military DOD, military industrial complex, working for one of the primes, or something like that. And my mindset was, “If I'm not the guy in the military making the decision, setting strategy and policy…” Like I was an O-3. Like, what kind of policy am I setting? Right? But my point was, if I'm not going to, if I may, if I decided to not stay in the military, I wasn't going to do anything that was related to the military, right, like, “Let's go to green pastures. Set myself apart. Find ways to compete…” Not against other people. I don't think I need to beat the hell out of somebody. I just need to make myself better every day. And that's the competition that I just love, and I love it  it's greenfield unknown. And why not apply my skills in an area where they haven't been applied and I can learn? So as an active-duty person — to come back and answer your question — I had worked some great bosses, great bosses, and they would have career counseling discussions with me, and I was asked twice to go to SOS in-residence. I turned it down, you know, as I knew. And then the third time my boss came to me. He's like, “OK, what are you doing? Idiot. Like, what are you doing?” That was at Year 5. And I just said, “Hey, sir, I think I'm going to do something different.” Naviere Walkewicz 20:47 Didn't want to take the slot from somebody else.   Mike Ott 20:49 That's right. Right. And so then it was five months, six months later, where I put in my papers. I had to do a little more time because of the grad school thing, which is great. And his commander, this was a two-star that I knew as well, interviewed me and like, one final, like, “What are you doing?” He's like, “You could have gone so far in the Air Force.” And I looked at the general — he was a super-good dude. I said, “What makes you think I'm not going to do well outside of the Air Force?” And he smiled. He's like, “Go get it.” So we stayed in touch. Great guy. So it had nothing to do with lack of fulfillment or lack of satisfaction. It had more to do with newness, curiosity, a challenge in a different vein. Naviere Walkewicz 21:30 So let's walk into that vein. You entered into this green pasture. What was that experience like? Because you've just been in something so structured. And I mean, would you say it was just structured in a different way? Mike Ott 21:48 No, not structured. The industry… So, I separated, tried an engineering job for about eight months. Hated it. I was, I was development engineer at Ford Motor Company, great firm. Love the organization, bored stiff, right? Just not what I wanted to do, and that's where I just quit. Moved back to Chicago, where I'm from, and started networking and found a role with an investment bank, ABN AMRO, which is a large Dutch investment bank that had begun to establish itself in the United States. So their headquarters in Chicago and I talked fast enough where somebody took a bet on me and was brought into the investment banking arm where I was on the capital markets team and institutional equities. So think of capital markets, and think of taking companies public and distributing those shares to large institutions, pensions funds, mutual funds, family offices.   Naviere Walkewicz 22:48 So a lot of learning and excitement for you.   Mike Ott 22:51 Super fun. And so the industry is very structured. How capital is established, capital flows, very regulated. We've got the SEC, we've got the FDIC, a lot of complex regulations and compliance matters. That's very, very, very structured. But there was a free-wheelingness in the marketplace. And if you've seen Wolf of Wall Street and things like that, some of that stuff happened. Crazy! And I realized that with my attitude, sense of placing trust in people before I really knew them, figuring that, “OK, what's the downside? I get nipped in the fan once, once or twice. But if I can thrust trust on somebody and create a relationship where they're surprised that I've trusted them, it's probably going to build something reciprocal. So learn how to do that.” And as a young fellow on the desk, wound up being given more responsibility because I was able to apply some of the basic tenets of leadership that you learned and I learned at the Academy. And face it, many of the men and women that work on Wall Street or financial services simply haven't gone to the Academy. It's just, it's the nature of numbers — and don't have that experience. They have other experiences. They have great leadership experiences, but they don't have this. And you and I may take it for granted because we were just four years of just living through it. It oozed in every moment, every breath, every interaction, every dialog, it was there.But we didn't know it was being poured in, sprinkled across as being showered. We were being showered in it. But I learned how to apply that in the relationships that I built, knowing that the relationships that I built and the reputation that I built would be lasting and impactful and would be appropriate investments for the future endeavors, because there's always a future, right? So it wasn't… again, lot of compliance, lot of regulations, but just the personalities. You know, I did it for the challenge, right? I did it because I was curious. I did it because I wanted to see if I could succeed at it. There were other folks that did it simply because it was for the money. And many, some of them made it. They might have sold their soul to get there. Some didn't make it. Maybe it wasn't the right pursuit for them in the first place. And if I go back to mentoring, which we talked about a little bit, and I help young men and women, cadets or maybe even recent grads, my guidance to them is, don't chase the money, chase the environment, right? And chase the environment that allows you to find your flow and contribute to that environment. The money will come. But I saw it — I've seen it with grads. I've seen it with many of the folks that didn't make it in these roles in financial services, because I thought, “Hey, this is where the money is.” It might be. But you have to go back to the basis of all this. How are you complected? What are your values? Do they align with the environment that you're in? And can you flow in a way where your strengths are going to allow success to happen and not sell your soul? Naviere Walkewicz 26:26 Yeah, you said two things that really stood out to me in that —the first one was, you know, trusting, just starting from a place of trust and respect, because the opportunity to build a relationship faster, and also there's that potential for future something. And then the second thing is the environment and making sure it aligns with your values. Is that how you got to MOBE? Mike Ott 26:50 Yeah, I would say how I got to MOBE, that certainly was a factor. Good question.   Naviere Walkewicz 26:57 The environment, I feel, is very much aligned Mike Ott 27:00 Very much so and then… But there's an element of reputation and relationship that allowed me to get there. So now I'm lucky to be a part of this firm. We're 250 people. We will do $50 million of revenue. We're growing nicely. I've been in health care for four years. Now, we are we're more than just healthcare. I mean, it's deep data. We can get into some of that later, but I had this financial services background. I was drawn to MOBE, but I had established a set of relationships with people at different investment banks, with other families that had successfully built businesses and just had relationships. And I was asked to come on to the board because MOBE, at the time, great capabilities, but struggled with leadership during COVID. Lot of companies did. It's not an indictment as to the prior CEO, but he and the team struggled to get through COVID. So initially I was approached to come on to the board, and that was through the founders of the firm who had known me for 20 years and knew my reputation, because I'd done different things at the investment bank, I'd run businesses at US Bank, which is a large commercial bank within the country, and they needed someone that… They cared very little about health care experience, which is good for me, and it was more around a sense of leadership. They knew my values. They trusted me. So initially I was asked to come onto the board, and that evolved into, “No, let's just do a whole reset and bring you on as the CEO.” Well, let's go back to like, what makes me tick. I love ambiguity. I love a challenge. And this has been a bit of a turnaround in that great capabilities, but lost its way in COVID, because leadership lost its way. So there's a lot of resetting that needed to occur. Corpus of the firm, great technology, great capabilities, but business model adaptation, go to market mechanisms and, frankly, environment. Environment. But I was drawn to the environment because of the people that had founded the organization. The firm was incubated within a large pharmaceutical firm. This firm called Upsher-Smith, was a Minnesota firm, the largest private and generic pharmaceutical company in the country, and sold for an awful lot of money, had been built by this family, sold in 2017 and the assets that are MOBE, mostly data, claims, analysis capabilities stayed separate, and so they incubated that, had a little bit of a data sandbox, and then it matriculated to, “Hey, we've got a real business here.” But that family has a reputation, and the individuals that founded it, and then ultimately found MOBE have a reputation. So I was very comfortable with the ambiguity of maybe not knowing health care as much as the next guy or gal, but the environment I was going into was one where I knew this family and these investors lived to high ethical standards, and there's many stories as to how I know that, but I knew that, and that gave me a ton of comfort. And then it was, “We trust you make it happen. So I got lucky. Naviere Walkewicz 30:33 Well, you're, I think, just the way that you're wired and the fact that you come from a place of trust, obviously, you know, OK, I don't have the, you know, like the medical background, but there are a lot of experts here that I'm going to trust to bring that expertise to me. And I'm going to help create an environment that they can really thrive in. Mike Ott 30:47 I'm certain many of our fellow alum have been in this experience, had these experiences where a leader worth his or her salt should be comfortable not being the smartest gal or guy in the room. In fact, you should strive for that to be the case and have a sense of lack of hubris and proudly acknowledge what you don't know. But what I do know is how to set vision. What I do know is how to move people without authority. What I do know is how to resource. And that's what you do if you want to move a mission, whether it's in the military, small firm like us that's getting bigger, or, you know, a big organization. You can't know it all. Naviere Walkewicz 31:30 So something you just mentioned that I think a lot of our listeners would really like, would love a little bit to peel us back a little bit. You said, “I know how to set a vision. I know how to…” I think it was move…   Mike Ott 31:45 Move people without authority and prioritize.   Naviere Walkewicz 31:47 But can we talk a little bit about that? Because I think that is really a challenge that some of our you know younger leaders, or those early in their leadership roles struggle with. Maybe, can you talk a little bit about that? Mike Ott 32:01 For sure, I had some — again, I tried to do my best to apply all the moments I had at the Academy and the long list of just like, “What were you thinking?” But the kindness piece comes through and… Think as a civilian outside looking in. They look at the military. It's very, very, very structured, OK, but the best leaders the men and women for whom you and I have served underneath or supported, never once barked an order, OK? They expressed intent, right? And you and I and all the other men and women in uniform, if we were paying attention, right, sought to execute the mission and satisfaction of that intent and make our bosses' bosses' jobs easier. That's really simple. And many outsiders looking in, we get back to just leadership that are civilians. They think, “Oh my gosh, these men and women that are in the military, they just can't assimilate. They can't make it in the civilian world.” And they think, because we come from this very, very hierarchical organization, yes, it is very hierarchical — that's a command structure that's necessary for mission execution — but the human part, right? I think military men and women leaders are among the best leaders, because guess what? We're motivating men and women — maybe they get a pat on the back. You didn't get a ribbon, right? Nobody's getting a year-end bonus, nobody's getting a spot bonus, nobody's getting equity in the Air Force, and it's gonna go public, right? It's just not that. So the best men and women that I for whom I've worked with have been those that have been able to get me to buy in and move and step up, and want to demonstrate my skills in coordination with others, cross functionally in the organization to get stuff done. And I think if there's anything we can remind emerging graduates, you know, out of the Academy, is: Don't rely on rank ever. Don't rely on rank. I had a moment: I was a dorky second lieutenant engineer, and we were launching a new system. It was a joint system for Marines, Navy and Air Force, and I had to go from Boston to Langley quite often because it was a TAC-related system, Tactical Air Force-related system. And the I was the program manager, multi-million dollar program for an interesting radio concept. And we were putting it into F-15s, so in some ground-based situations. And there was this E-8, crusty E-8, smoked, Vietnam, all these things, and he was a comms dude, and one of the systems was glitching. It just wasn't working, right? And we were getting ready to take this thing over somewhere overseas. And he pulls alongside me, and it's rather insubordinate, but it was a test, right? He's looking at me, Academy guy, you know, second lieutenant. He was a master sergeant, and he's like, “Well, son, what are we going to do now?” In other words, like, “We're in a pickle. What are we going to do now?” But calling me son. Yeah, it's not appropriate, right? If I'd have been hierarchical and I'd relied on rank, I probably would have been justified to let him have it. Like, that's playing short ball, right? I just thought for a second, and I just put my arm around him. I said, “Gee, Dad, I was hoping you're gonna help me.” And mother rat, we figured it out, and after that, he was eating out of my hand. So it was a test, right? Don't be afraid to be tested but don't take the bait. Naviere Walkewicz 35:46 So many good just lessons in each of these examples. Can you share a time at MOBE when you've seen someone that has been on your team that has demonstrated that because of the environment you've created? Mike Ott 35:57 For sure. So I've been running the firm now for about three and a half years. Again, have adapted and enhanced our capabilities, changed the business model a bit, yet functioning in our approach to the marketplace remains the same. We help people get better, and we get paid based on the less spend they have in the system. Part of some of our principles at MOBE are pretty simple, like, eat, sleep, move, smile, all right. And then be thoughtful with your medication. We think that medicine is an aid, not a cure. Your body's self-healing and your mind controls your body.   Naviere Walkewicz 36:32 Eat, sleep, move, smile. Love that.   Mike Ott 36:35 So what's happening with MOBE, and what I've seen is the same is true with how I've altered our leadership team. I've got some amazing leaders — very, very, very accomplished. But there are some new leaders because others just didn't fit in. There wasn't the sense of communal trust that I expected. There was too much, know-it-all'ing going on, right? And I just won't have that. So the easiest way to diffuse that isn't about changing head count, but it's around exhibiting vulnerability in front of all these folks and saying, “Look, I don't know that, but my lead pharmacist here, my lead clinician here, helped me get through those things.” But I do have one leader right, who is our head of vice president of HR, a woman who grew up on a farm in southern Minnesota, who has come to myself and our president and shared that she feels liberated at MOBE because, though this firm is larger than one that she served as a director of HR, previously, she's never had to look — check her six, look right, look left and seek alignment to ensure she's harmonizing with people. Naviere Walkewicz 37:49 Can you imagine being in an environment like that? Mike Ott 38:51 It's terrible, it's toxic, and it's wrong. Leaders, within the organization, I think you're judged more by what you don't do and the actions that you don't take. You can establish trust, and you will fortify that trust when you share with the team as best you can, so long as it's nothing inappropriate, where you made a mistake, where we went wrong. What did we learn from that? Where are we going to pivot? How we're going to apply that learning to make it better, as opposed to finding blame, pointing the finger or not even acknowledging? That happens all the time, and that toxicity erodes. And regretfully, my VP of HR in prior roles experienced that, and I don't have time. Good teams shouldn't have time to rehearse the basic values of the firm. We don't have time the speed of business is like this [snaps]. So if I can build the team of men and women that trust one another, can stay in their lanes, but also recognize that they're responsible for helping run the business, and look over at the other lanes and help their fellow leaders make adjustments without the indictful comment or without sort of belittling or shaming. That's what good teams, do. You, and I did that in the Air Force, but it is not as common as you would think. Naviere Walkewicz 39:11 20 we've been talking about MOBE, and you know, the environment you're creating there, and just the way that you're working through innovation. Let's talk a little bit how you're involved with DIU, the Defense Innovation Unit. Mike Ott 39:21 Again, it's reputation in relationships. And it was probably 2010, I get a call from a fellow grad, '87 grad who was living in the Beltway, still in uniform. He was an O-5 I was an O-5. Just doing the Academy liaison work, helping good young men and women that wanted to go to the Academy get in. And that was super satisfying, thought that would be the end of my Reserve career and super fun. And this is right when the first Obama administration came in, and one of his edicts and his admin edicts was, we've got to find ways to embrace industry more, right? We can't rely on the primes, just the primes. So those were just some seeds, and along with a couple other grads, created what is now called Joint Reserve Directorate, which was spawned DIUX, which was DIU Experimental, is spawned from. So I was the owner for JRD, and DIUX as a reserve officer. And that's how we all made colonel is we were working for the chief technology officer of the Defense Department, the Hon. Zach Lemnios, wonderful fellow. Civilian, didn't have much military experience, but boy, the guy knew tech — semiconductors and areas like that. But this was the beginning of the United States recognizing that our R&D output, OK, in the aggregate, as a fund, as a percentage of GDP, whether it's coming out of the commercial marketplace or the military DoD complex, needs to be harnessed against the big fight that we have with China. We can see, you know, we've known about that for 30 years. So this is back 14 years ago. And the idea was, let's bring in men and women — there was a woman in our group too that started this area — and was like, “How do we create essential boundary span, boundary spanners, or dual-literacy people that are experiences in capital markets, finance, how capital is accumulated, innovation occurs, but then also how that applies into supporting the warfighter. So we were given a sandbox. We were given a blank slate.   Naviere Walkewicz 41:37 It's your happy place.   Mike Ott 41:38 Oh, super awesome. And began to build out relationships at Silicon Valley with commercial entities, and developed some concepts that are now being deployed with DIU and many other people came in and brought them all to life. But I was lucky enough after I retired from the Reserves as a colonel to be asked to come back as an adviser, because of that background and that experience, the genesis of the organization. So today I'm an unpaid SGE — special government employee — to help DIU look across a variety of different domains. And so I'm sure many of our listeners know it's key areas that we've got to harness the commercial marketplace. We know that if you go back into the '70s, ‘60s and ‘70s, and creation of the internet, GPS, precision munitions and all of that, the R&D dollars spent in the aggregate for the country, 95% came out of DOD is completely flip flopped today. Completely flipped. We happen to live in an open, free society. We hope to have capital markets and access a lot of that technology isn't burdened like it might be in China. And so that's the good and bad of this open society that we have. We've got to find ways. So we, the team does a lot of great work, and I just help them think about capital markets, money flows, threat finance. How you use financial markets to interdict, listen, see signals, but then also different technologies across cyberspace, autonomy, AI. Goodness gracious, I'm sure there's a few others. There's just so much. So I'm just an interloper that helps them think about that, and it's super fun that they think that I can be helpful. Naviere Walkewicz 43:29 Well, I think I was curious on how, because you love the ambiguity, and that's just something that fills your bucket — so while you're leading MOBE and you're creating something very stable, it sounds like DIU and being that kind of special employee, government employee, helps you to fill that need for your ambiguous side.   Mike Ott 43:48 You're right. You're right.   Naviere Walkewicz 43:49 Yeah, I thought that's really fascinating. Well, I think it's wonderful that you get to create that and you just said, the speed of business is this [snaps]. How do you find time in your life to balance what you also put your values around — your health — when you have such an important job and taking care of so many people? Mike Ott 44:06 I think we're all pretty disciplined at the Academy, right? I remain that way, and I'm very, very — I'm spring loaded to ‘no,' right? “Hey, do you want to go do this?” Yeah, I want to try do, I want to do a lot of things, but I'm spring loaded. So like, “Hey, you want to go out and stay, stay up late and have a drink?” “No,” right? “Do you want to do those things?” So I'm very, very regimented in that I get eight hours of sleep, right? And even somebody, even as a cadet, one of the nicknames my buddies gave me was Rip Van Ott, right? Because I'm like, “This is it.” I was a civil engineer. One of my roommates was an astro guy, and I think he pulled an all-nighter once a week.   Naviere Walkewicz 45:46 Oh, my goodness, yeah.   Mike Ott 45:50 Like, “Dude, what are you doing?” And it wasn't like he was straight As. I was clearly not straight As, but I'm like, “What are you doing? That's not helpful. Do the work ahead of time.” I think I maybe pulled three or four all-nighters my entire four years. Now, it's reflected in my GPA. I get that, but I finished the engineering degree. But sleep matters, right? And some things are just nonnegotiable, and that is, you know, exercise, sleep and be kind to yourself, right? Don't compare. If you're going to compare, compare yourself to yesterday, but don't look at somebody who is an F-15 pilot, and you're not. Like, I'm not. My roommate, my best man at my wedding, F-15 pilot, Test Pilot School, all these things, amazing, amazing, awesome, and super, really, really, happy and proud for him, but that's his mojo; that's his flow, right? If you're gonna do any comparison, compare yourself to the man or woman you were yesterday and “Am I better?”. Naviere Walkewicz 44:48 The power of “no” and having those nonnegotiables is really important. Mike Ott 45:53 Yeah, no, I'm not doing that. Naviere Walkewicz 45:56 I think sometimes we're wired for a “we can take on… we can take it on, we can take it on, we can take it on. We got this.” Mike Ott 46:03 For sure. Oh, my goodness. And I have that discussion with people on my team from time to time as well, and it's most often as it relates to an individual on the team that's struggling in his or her role, or whether it's by you know, if it's by omission and they're in the wrong role, that's one thing. If it's by commission, well, be a leader and execute and get that person out of there, right? That's wrong, but from time to time, it's by omission, and somebody is just not well placed. And I've seen managers, I can repatriate this person. I can get him or her there, and you have to stop for a second and tell that leader, “Yeah, I know you can. I'm certain that the only thing you were responsible for was to help that person fulfill the roles of the job that they're assigned. You could do it.” But guess what? You've got 90% of your team that needs care, nurturing and feeding. They're delivering in their function, neglect, there destroys careers, and it's going to destroy the business. So don't, don't get caught up in that. Yeah. Pack it on. Pack it on. Pack it on. You're right. When someone's in the crosshairs, I want to be in the crosshairs with you, Naviere, and Ted, and all the people that you and I affiliate with, but on the day-to-day, sustained basis, right to live, you know, to execute and be fulfilled, both in the mission, the work and stay fit, to fight and do it again. You can't. You can't. And a lot of a little bit of no goes a long way. Naviere Walkewicz 47:40 That is really good to hear. I think that's something that a lot of leaders really don't share. And I think that's really wonderful that you did. I'd like to take a little time and pivot into another area that you're heavily involved, philanthropy side. You know, you've been with the Falcon Foundation. Where did you find that intent inside of you? I mean, you always said the Academy's been part of you, but you found your way back in that space in other ways. Let's talk about that. Mike Ott 48:05 Sure. Thank you. I don't know. I felt that service is a part of me, right? And it is for all of us, whether you stay in the military or not. Part of my financial services jobs have been in wealth management. I was lucky enough to run that business for US Bank in one of my capacities, and here I am now in health care, health care of service. That aligns with wanting things to be better across any other angle. And the philanthropic, philanthropic side of things — I probably couldn't say that word when I was a cadet, but then, you know, I got out and we did different volunteer efforts. We were at Hanscom Field raising money for different organizations, and stayed with it, and always found ways to have fun with it. But recognized I couldn't… It was inefficient if I was going to be philanthropic around something that I didn't have a personal interest in. And as a senior executive at US Bank, we were all… It was tacit to the role you had roles in local foundations or community efforts. And I remember sitting down with my boss, the CFO of the bank, and then the CEO, and they'd asked me to go on to a board, and it had to do with a museum that I had no interest in, right? And I had a good enough relationship with these, with these guys, to say, “Look, I'm a good dude. I'm going to be helpful in supporting the bank. And if this is a have to, all right, I'll do it, but you got the wrong guy. Like, you want me to represent the bank passionately, you know, philanthropically, let me do this. And they're like, “OK, great.” So we pivoted, and I did other things. And the philanthropic piece of things is it's doing good. It's of service for people, entities, organizations, communities or moments that can use it. And I it's just very, very satisfying to me. So my wife and I are pretty involved that way, whether it's locally, with different organizations, lot of military support. The Academy, we're very fond of. It just kind of became a staple. Naviere Walkewicz 50:35 Did you find yourself also gravitating toward making better your community where you grew up? Mike Ott 50:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my dear friends that grew up in the same neighborhood, he wound up going to the Naval Academy, and so we're we've been friends for 50 years. Seventh grade.   Naviere Walkewicz 50:53 Same counselor? Mike Ott50:54 Yeah, no. Different counselor, different high school. His parents had a little bit of money, and they, he wound up going to a Catholic school nearby. But great guy, and so he and I, he runs a business that serves the VA in Chicago, and I'm on the board, and we do an awful lot of work. And one of the schools we support is a school on the south side, largely African American students and helping them with different STEM projects. It's not going to hit above the fold of a newspaper, but I could give a rat, doesn't matter to me, seeing a difference, seeing these young men and women. One of them, one of these boys, it's eye watering, but he just found out that he was picked for, he's applying to the Naval Academy, and he just found out that he got a nomination.   Naviere Walkewicz 51:44 Oh my goodness, I just got chills.   Mike Ott 51:46 And so, yeah, yeah, right, right. But it's wonderful. And his parents had no idea anything like that even existed. So that's one that it's not terribly formal, but boy, it looks great when you see the smile on that kid and the impact on that individual, but then the impact it leaves on the community, because it's clear opportunity for people to aspire because they know this young man or this young woman, “I can do that too.” Naviere Walkewicz 52:22 Wow. So he got his nomination, and so he would start technically making class of 2030?   Mike Ott 52:27 That's right. Naviere Walkewicz 52:28 Oh, how exciting. OK Well, that's a wonderful…   Mike Ott 52:27 I hope, I hope, yeah, he's a great kid. Naviere Walkewicz 52:33 Oh, that is wonderful. So you talk about, you know that spirit of giving — how have you seen, I guess, in your journey, because it hasn't been linear. We talked about how you know progression is not linear. How have you grown throughout these different experiences? Because you kind of go into a very ambiguous area, and you bring yourself, and you grow in it and you make it better. But how have you grown? What does that look like for you? Mike Ott 53:02 After having done it several times, right, i.e. entering the fray of an ambiguous environment business situation, I developed a better system and understanding of what do I really need to do out of the gates? And I've grown that way and learn to not be too decisive too soon. Decisiveness is a great gift. It's really, really it's important. It lacks. It lacks because there are too many people, less so in the military, that want to be known for having made… don't want to be known for having made a bad decision, so they don't take that risk. Right, right, right. And so that creates just sort of the static friction, and you've just got to have faith and so, but I've learned how to balance just exactly when to be decisive. And the other thing that I know about me is I am drawn to ambiguity. I am drawn… Very, very curious. Love to learn, try new things, have a range of interests and not very good at any one thing, but that range helps me in critical thinking. So I've learned to, depending on the situation, right, listen, listen, and then go. It isn't a formula. It's a flow, but it's not a formula. And instinct matters when to be decisive. Nature of the people with whom you're working, nature of the mission, evolution, phase of the organization or the unit that you're in. Now is the time, right? So balancing fostering decisiveness is something that that's worth a separate discussion. Naviere Walkewicz 54:59 Right. Wow. So all of these things that you've experienced and the growth that you've had personally — do you think about is this? Is this important to you at all, the idea of, what is your legacy, or is that not? Mike Ott 55:13 We talked a little bit about this beforehand, and I thought I've got to come up with something pithy, right? And I really, I really don't.   Naviere Walkewicz 55:18 Yeah, you don't.   Mike Ott 55:19 I don't think of myself as that. I'm very proud of who I am and what I've done in the reputation that I have built. I don't need my name up in lights. I know the life that I'm living and the life that I hope to live for a lot longer. My legacy is just my family, my children, the mark that I've left in the organizations that I have been a part of.   Naviere Walkewicz 55:58 And the communities that you've touched, like that gentleman going and getting his nomination. I'm sure.   Mike Ott 56:04 Yeah, I don't… having been a senior leader, and even at MOBE, I'm interviewed by different newspapers and all that. Like I do it because I'm in this role, and it's important for MOBE, but I'm not that full of myself, where I got to be up in lights. So I just want to be known as a man that was trustworthy, fun, tried to meet people where they are really had flaws, and sought to overcome them with the few strengths that he had, and moved everything forward. Naviere Walkewicz 56:33 Those are the kind of leaders that people will run through fire for. That's amazing. I think that's a wonderful I mean that in itself, it's like a living legacy you do every day. How can I be better than I was yesterday? And that in itself, is a bit of your living and that's really cool. Well, one of the things we like to ask is, “What is something you're doing every day to be better as a leader?” And you've covered a lot, so I mean, you could probably go back to one of those things, but is there something that you could share with our listeners that you do personally every day, to be better? Mike Ott 57:05 Exercise and read every day, every day, and except Fridays. Fridays I take… that's like, I'll stretch or just kind of go for a walk. But every day I make it a moment, you know, 45 minutes to an hour, something and better for my head, good for my body, right? That's the process in the hierarchy of way I think about it. And then read. Gen. Mattis. And I supported Gen. Mattis as a lieutenant colonel before I wanted to and stuff at the Pentagon. And he I supported him as an innovation guy for JFCOM, where he was the commander. And even back then, he was always talking about reading is leading none of us as military leaders… And I can't hold the candle to the guy, but I learned an awful lot, and I love his mindset, and that none of us can live a life long enough to take In all the leadership lessons necessary to help us drive impact. So you better be reading about it all the time. And so I read probably an hour every night, every day.   Naviere Walkewicz 58:14 What are you reading right now?   Mike Ott 58:15 Oh, man, I left it on the plane! I was so bummed. Naviere Walkewicz 58:17 Oh, that's the worst. You're going to have to get another copy. Mike Ott 58:22 Before I came here, I ordered it from Barnes & Noble so to me at my house when I get home. Love history and reading a book by this wonderful British author named Anne Reid. And it's, I forget the title exactly, but it's how the allies at the end of World War I sought to influence Russia and overcome the Bolsheviks. They were called the interventionalists, and it was an alliance of 15 different countries, including the U.S., Britain, France, U.K., Japan, Australia, India, trying to thwart, you know, the Bolshevik Revolution — trying to thwart its being cemented. Fascinating, fascinating. So that's what I was reading until I left it on the plane today. Naviere Walkewicz 59:07 How do you choose what to read? Mike Ott 59:10 Listen, write, love history. Love to read Air Force stuff too. Just talk to friends, right? You know, they've learned how to read like me. So we get to talk and have fun with that. Naviere Walkewicz 59:22 That's great. Yeah, that's wonderful. Well, the last question I'd like to ask you, before I want to make sure you have an opportunity to cover anything we didn't, is what is something you would share with others that they can do to become better leaders? Maybe they start doing it now, so in the future, they're even stronger as a leader. Mike Ott 59:42 Two things I would say, and try to have these exist in the same breath in the same moment, is have the courage to make it try and make it better every day, all right, and be kind to yourself, be forgiving. Naviere Walkewicz 59:59 That's really powerful. Can you share an example? And I know I that's we could just leave it there, but being courageous and then being kind to yourself, they're almost on two opposite sides. Have you had, can you share an example where I guess you've done that right? You had to be you were courageous and making something better, and maybe it didn't go that way, so you have to be kind to yourself. Mike Ott 1:00:23 Yeah, happy to and I think any cadet will hear this story and go like, “Huh, wow, that's interesting.” And it also plays with the arc of progress isn't linear. I graduated in '85 went to flight school, got halfway through flight school, and there was a RIF, reduction in force. And our class, our flight class, I was flying jets, I was soloing. I was academically — super easy, flying average, right? You know, I like to joke that I've got the fine motor skills of a ham sandwich, right? You know, but, but I didn't finish flight school. And you think about this, here it is. I started in 1981 there were still vestiges of Vietnam. Everyone's going to be a fighter pilot. Kill, kill, kill. Blood makes the grass grow. All of that was there. And I remember when this happened, it was very frustrating for me. It was mostly the major root of frustration wasn't that I wasn't finishing flight school. It was the nature by which the determination that I wasn't finishing was made. And it was, it was a financial decision. We had too many guys and gals, and they were just finding, you know, average folks and then kicking them out. So our class graduated a lower percent than, I think, in that era, it was late '85, '86, maybe '87, but you can look at outflows, and it was interesting, they were making budget cuts. So there was a shaming part there, having gone to the Academy.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:02:02 And knowing since 9 years old. Mike Ott 1:20:04 Right, right, right, and I knew I wanted to go the Academy. I'd like to fly, let's check it out and see if it's for me. I would much rather have been not for me, had I made the decision I don't want to do this or that I was just unsafe and didn't want to do it. The way it turned out is, and this is where I learned a little bit about politics as well. In my class, again, I was very average. Like, nobody's ever going to say, like, yeah, I was going to go fly the Space Shuttle. Like, no way, right? Very, very average, but doing just fine. And a lot of guys and gals wanted to go be navigators, and that's great. I looked in the regs, and I learned this as a cadet, and it's helped me in business, too. If there's a rule, there's a waiver. Like, let me understand the regs, and I asked to go to a board. Instead of just submitting a letter to appeal, I asked to go to a board. And so I went to a board of an O-5 five, couple of threes O-4 four, and ultimately shared the essence of why I shouldn't be terminated in the program. And son of a gun, they agreed, and I still have the letter. The letter says, “Recommend Lt. Ott for reinstatement.” Nobody in my class has that letter, nobody makes the appeal. And I'm like, I'm going downstream. I'm going downstream. And that's the Chicago in me, and that's the piece about… but also move forward, but forgive yourself, and I'll get to that. And so I, I was thrilled, My goodness, and the argument I had is, like, look, you're just not keeping me current. You put me in the sim, and then you're waiting too long to put me in the jet. The regs don't allow for that. And like, you're right. So I'm assigned to go back to the jet. My pals are thrilled. I'm going to stay in the same class. I don't have to wash back. And then I get a call from the DO's office — director of operations — and it was from some civilian person so the DO overrode the board's decision. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:04:12 You were so high, you did all of your work. And then… Mike Ott 1:04:15 Yeah, and then heartbreaking and frustrating, and I guess the word is indignant: anger aroused through frustration. In that I figured it out. I knew exactly what's happening. I made the appeal and I won. And it wasn't I was expecting to be assigned to fly a fighter. It was like, “Just let me, let me express the merits of my capabilities. It's how the system is designed.” The son of a gun, I jumped in my car and I ran to base and I waited and reported in. He didn't really know who I was. That's because he didn't make a decision. It was just it was that decision, and that's how life comes at you. That's just how it is. It isn't linear. So how do you take that and then say, “Well, I'm going to be kind to myself and make something out of it.” And he went through, you know, a dissertation as to why, and I asked him if I could share my views, and it's pretty candid, and I just said, If my dad were something other than the Chicago policeman, and maybe if he was a senator or general officer, I wouldn't be sitting here. That lit him up, right? That lit him up. But I had to state my views. So I knew I was out of the program. Very, very frustrating. Could have had the mayor of Chicago call. Didn't do that, right? Like, OK, I understand where this is it. That was very frustrating and somewhat shaming. But where the forgiveness comes in and be kind to yourself, is that I ran into ground. I ran into ground and drove an outcome where I still… It's a moment of integrity. I drove an outcome like, there you go. But then what do you do? Forgive yourself, right? Because you didn't do anything wrong, OK? And you pivot. And I turned that into a moment where I started cold calling instructors at the Academy. Because, hey, now I owe the Air Force five years, Air Force is looking for, you know, things that I don't want to do. And thank goodness I had an engineering degree, and I cold called a guy at a base in Hanscom. And this is another tap on the shoulder.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:24 That's how you got to Hanscom. Gotcha.   Mike Ott 1:06:27 There was a friend who was Class of '83, a woman who was in my squadron, who was there. Great egg. And she's like, “Hey, I was at the O Club.” Called her. I said, “Hey, help me out. I got this engineering degree. I want to go to one of these bases. Called Lt. Col. Davis, right? I met him at the O Club. I called a guy, and he's like, “Yeah, let's do this.”   Naviere Walkewicz 1:06:44 Wow, I love that..   Mike Ott 1:06:46 It was fantastic So it's a long winded way, but progress isn't linear. And progressing through that and not being a victim, right, recognizing the conditions and the environment that I could control and those that I can't. Anything that I could control, I took advantage of and I sought to influence as best possible. Ran into ground and I feel great about it, and it turns out to be a testament of one of my best successes. Naviere Walkewicz 1:07:17 Wow. Thank you for sharing

What if the chapter you'd rather skip is the one God is using to shape your calling? We open Genesis 50:20 and sit with Joseph's bold confession—“You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good”—to reframe detours, delays, and disappointments as ground where purpose grows. From betrayal to breakthrough, we trace how character formed in hidden seasons becomes strength for public assignment, and how that pattern is alive in our own eight-year journey with Family Disciple Me.Joseph's story gives language to what many of us feel: purpose doesn't vanish in the pit and it isn't guaranteed in the palace; it develops when God remains our focus through every season.This is the story of Joseph, this is the story of the Family Disciple Me ministry, and this is the story each of us can have as we continue to walk with the Lord and "Seek Him Speak Him." So, be encouraged! Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs a “but God” moment, and leave a review to help more families discover these tools. Let's keep seeking Him, speaking Him, and trusting that God still intends it for good.______________________The Family Disciple Me ministry exists to catalyze devotion driven discipleship in our homes and around the world. We believe that discipleship starts with a conversation, and FDM provides free, easily-accessible, biblical resources to encourage these meaningful conversations along life's way. Sign up through our website to be "the first to know" about upcoming releases and resources (including the FDM App - coming soon!!!) You can also follow Family Disciple Me on social media. Family Disciple Me is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit ministry, and all donations are tax deductible. More information, blogs, statement of faith and contact info can be found at familydiscipleme.org

BOO!Gotcha.

What if your “waiting place” is actually a greenhouse for growth? In this episode, we explore how God transforms seasons that feel stalled into fertile ground for spiritual, family, and community multiplication—starting with Israel's long stay in Goshen and stretching into the explosive movement of the early church. Instead of treating delay as dead time, we look at how Scripture frames waiting as a season to settle, steward, and sow: settle into faithful rhythms, steward what's already in your hands, and sow the seeds of discipleship that bear fruit over time.We walk through the pattern of multiplication found in Genesis and Acts—the call to be fruitful and multiply, the Israelites acquiring property and increasing, the word of God spreading widely and growing in power. Along the way, we address a cultural reality: our world is downsizing vision, commitment, and responsibility. Against that tide, we cast a hopeful vision for kingdom growth that includes both physical and spiritual children. Whether you're a parent, a single adult, a grandparent, or a young professional, you have a part to play: share the gospel, mentor someone younger, open your home, pray with a student, and bring Scripture into everyday conversations.If your life feels like Goshen right now, take courage. Growth is not postponed until perfect conditions arrive. It begins where you are—one heart, one family, one home, one conversation at a time. We close with practical prompts to help you grow in grace, truth, love, and maturity, and a challenge to make Jesus more famous through ordinary faithfulness. Subscribe at familydiscipleme.org/subscribe for more thoughtful, faith-centered conversations, share this with a friend who needs encouragement, and leave a review to help others discover this message of fruitful waiting.______________________The Family Disciple Me ministry exists to catalyze devotion driven discipleship in our homes and around the world. We believe that discipleship starts with a conversation, and FDM provides free, easily-accessible, biblical resources to encourage these meaningful conversations along life's way. Sign up through our website to be "the first to know" about upcoming releases and resources (including the FDM App - coming soon!!!) You can also follow Family Disciple Me on social media. Family Disciple Me is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit ministry, and all donations are tax deductible. More information, blogs, statement of faith and contact info can be found at familydiscipleme.org

An urban legend, a haunted house, and a small town coming of age tradition. Welcome to Thirteen's 2025 Fall Series: Willow House Don't want to wait for weekly releases? Listen to the rest of the series right now, on  ⁠Patreon⁠! Written by Ian Epperson Narrated by Brooke Jennett Ashley was Noelle Woolery Charlie was Shelby Novak  Andi was Kayla Temshiv  Music composed by Caleb Ritchie Editing and sound design by Brooke Jennett Assistance from Bridgett Freeman Get your copy of Mad As Birds by M.C. Schmidt Hear more from Shelby on her shows Scare You To Sleep and The Bloody Disgusting Podcast! Find Thirteen on social media at: ⁠Facebook⁠, ⁠Tiktok⁠ and⁠ Instagram⁠ Email us with any questions, comments, or story submissions  at  ⁠info@thirteenpodcast.com⁠ Additional Music and SFX licensed through ⁠Artlist⁠ We're part of the SpectreVision Radio network! SpectreVision Radio is a bespoke podcast network at the intersection between the arts and the uncanny, featuring a tapestry of shows exploring creativity, the esoteric, and the unknown. We're a community for creators and fans vibrating around common curiosities, shared interests and persistent passions. SpectreVision Radio ⁠Website⁠ SpectreVision Radio ⁠Socials⁠ CONTENT WANRING BELOW MAY CONTAIN SPOLIERS - - - - - - Suicide, Domestic Violence Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alarms blare, policies stack up, and yet the world still feels unsafe. In this episode, host Tosha Williams helps us look at what's sturdier than locks and warranties. We turn to Goshen—the story of how God set His people apart inside Egypt—and trace a thread of protection that runs across Scripture and into our lives and homes today. Not escape from our problems, but embracing God's Presence within them. In this episode, we start with Genesis then move to Scriptures like Romans 8:31, Hebrews 13:6, and Psalm 18:2, unpacking why confidence grows when we see God as our Protector. Jesus' prayer in John 17:15 reframes safety: we're not removed from the world; we are guarded from the evil one within it. And 2 Thessalonians 3:3 gives the pattern families need to coach our kids to build spiritual muscle in difficult times to prepare for evil times.You'll hear practical ways to teach this at home, move from anxiety to alert hope, and stand firm with a steady, non-anxious presence. We talk about training trust through disappointments, recognizing real threats, and holding tight to the promise of 2 Timothy 4:18: the Lord rescues from every evil attack and brings us safely to His kingdom. If you've been wondering how to live with courage in a chaotic culture, this conversation offers language, Scripture, and rhythms to help you and your family live “in Goshen”—set apart, not sealed off.If this episode encouraged you, share it with a friend who needs peace in God's Protection today, and leave a quick review to help more families find their footing.______________________The Family Disciple Me ministry exists to catalyze devotion driven discipleship in our homes and around the world. We believe that discipleship starts with a conversation, and FDM provides free, easily-accessible, biblical resources to encourage these meaningful conversations along life's way. Sign up through our website to be "the first to know" about upcoming releases and resources (including the FDM App - coming soon!!!) You can also follow Family Disciple Me on social media. Family Disciple Me is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit ministry, and all donations are tax deductible. More information, blogs, statement of faith and contact info can be found at familydiscipleme.org

Gotcha And So Much More With Maurice: Lost Without Japan Ep 121 Lost Without Japan Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/lostwithoutjapan/  Get CLEAR on Japanese grammar with Maplopo's Verb Pro Masterclass. Stop grumbling, stumbling, and fumbling your way through Japanese... and finally get to sounding confident and intelligent in the language this year. For a limited amount of time, Lost Without Japan listeners save 70% off the full retail price and pay only $60 through December 31st. PLUS get access to Maplopo's private Discord community for support on your verb-related conjugation questions. Head on over to maplopo.com/lost-without-japan and begin your transformation today. Maurice Instagram: @slycelyfe https://www.instagram.com/slycelyfe?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==  Please Consider Kindly Supporting Our Crowd-Funded Show By Supporting Us Through Our Shows Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/posts/paying-for-our-4-109129803?utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_source=copyLink&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link As always, the link to our shows Google Resource doc can be found at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WEVbRmvn8jzxOZPDaypl3UAjxbs1OOSWSftFW1BYXpI/edit#

The ground beneath our feet feels shaky right now. Everywhere we turn, headlines scream of violence, deep divisions fracture our communities, and even our families. Apocalyptic predictions circulate wildly, stirring up fear and anxiety. Where can we find solid ground when everything around us trembles?This episode introduces a first way that God took care of His people, as we explore:  "Days of Distinction: How God's Got You in Goshen." God provided safe harbor for His people during chaotic times. Drawing from the biblical account of Goshen—where the Israelites found provision and protection during Egypt's plagues—we discover a spiritual principle that transcends ancient history. Goshen wasn't merely a geographical location; it represents God's pattern of drawing a distinction around His people, saying "I've got you" when the world is in turmoil.When Joseph told his starving family, "You shall live in Goshen and be near me," we can see an example of how God positions provision before crisis hits. This pattern continues throughout Scripture and into our lives today. While the world fixates on shortages and collapse, believers can rest in the promise that God "will meet all your needs according to the riches of His glory in Christ Jesus." More than stockpiling supplies or retreating in fear, what our world desperately needs are faith-filled voices testifying to God's faithfulness. Like Joseph, we're called not to hoard God's provision but to extend it generously to others.Ready to experience God's distinction in your life? Join us for this journey and discover how to "Seek Him Speak Him"—first encountering God personally through His Word, then sharing His truth with those around you. When you feel surrounded by chaos, remember you're actually surrounded by the God of heaven's armies, who still provides for His people today.______________________The Family Disciple Me ministry exists to catalyze devotion driven discipleship in our homes and around the world. We believe that discipleship starts with a conversation, and FDM provides free, easily-accessible, biblical resources to encourage these meaningful conversations along life's way. Sign up through our website to be "the first to know" about upcoming releases and resources (including the FDM App - coming soon!!!) You can also follow Family Disciple Me on social media. Family Disciple Me is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit ministry, and all donations are tax deductible. More information, blogs, statement of faith and contact info can be found at familydiscipleme.org

It's my first in a series on people pleasing! We're looking at it from all angles, starting with people-pleasing at work. We do it to stay safe, even to get ahead in our careers—but it's actually sabotaging our success! The problem is, half the time, we don't even know we're doing it, and the other half, we've people pleased before we even have a chance to think about what we're saying (soooo frustrating)! In this episode, executive coach, TED Talk speaker, and founder of Encourage Coaching, Katie O'Malley, joins me to talk about how we overcome the traumatized thinking that keeps us in people-pleaser mode, so we can set boundaries and take our power back. Looking for more episodes on people-pleasing? Try epi 87, epi 86, or epi 30. For more on boundary setting, try epi 10, epi 46, or epi 61.Want to work with Remy? Go ⁠⁠here.Find us on:Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: patraumaparty@gmail.comThe contents of this podcast are provided for informational purposes only. None of the material presented is intended to be a substitute for psychotherapy, counseling, professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you need to speak with a professional, you can find one local to you and reach out directly, or, in the US, you can call 988 to connect with the Suicide & Crisis Hotline.

In the origin story of Michael Myers, the slasher killer from the legendary Halloween series of horror films, young Michael sees his sister….. Wait, what? Oh, this is Dennis the Menace? In which a little slingshot punk from the 1950s rides around on a tricycle in 1993 and torments an innocent old man? And you're telling me it's not about Michael Myers, it was just directed by the man who originally played Michael Myers in John Carpenter's Halloween (Nick “The Shape” Castle)? Gotcha. I see where the confusion started. Unregardless, here is our long-awaited discussion of the 1993 Dennis the Menace starring Walter Mathau as Mr. Wilson and Christopher Lloyd as a hobo killer who rides the rails and skins children alive, even though we never get to actually see that. And this was written and produced by John Hughes, during his “Let's just do Home Alone again and again and again” period. Laci loves it, Matt does not, so this is the two-hour therapy session that results.   Next week: Our October Extravaganza begins with Interview with the Vampire (1994)!    Bonus video: Matt and Laci reveal their blindspots from the IMBD Top 250 movies of all time list - https://youtube.com/shorts/_wTbG4t4NEo    Out now on the Patreon: Matt, Wade, and Patrick dive deep into Nickelodeon's Doug, discussing its history and reviewing the episodes “Doug Can't Dance” and “Doug's Garage Band.” https://bit.ly/3KdBuvg    Time stamps: 00:03:15 — We read this week's Dennis the Menace newspaper comics 00:11:08 — Opening thoughts on Dennis the Menace (the movie) 00:17:30 — History segment: The Dennis the Menace comic strip created by Hank Ketcham and its long afterlife; the 1950s Dennis the Menace sitcom; the production of the 1993 movie and John Hughes's pivot to cranking out family movies with very similar premises 00:39:45 — Movie discussion 02:00:20 — Final thoughts and star ratings   Source: "Dennis the Menace and ADHD" by Matthew Smith | Psychology Today (2018) - https://bit.ly/4niObDH   Artwork by Laci Roth.   Music by Rural Route Nine. Listen to their album The Joy of Averages on Spotify (https://bit.ly/48WBtUa), Apple Music (https://bit.ly/3Q6kOVC), or YouTube (https://bit.ly/3MbU6tC).   Songs by Rural Route Nine in this episode: “Your Ambition” - https://youtu.be/ZHudVTCkrQY “Winston-Salem” - https://youtu.be/-acMutUf8IM “Snake Drama” - https://youtu.be/xrzz8_2Mqkg “The Bible Towers of Bluebonnet” - https://youtu.be/k7wlxTGGEIQ    Follow the show!  Twitter: @LoadBearingPod | @MattStokes9 | @LRothConcepts Instagram: @loadbearingbeams TikTok: @load.bearing.beams | @mattstokes9 Letterboxd: @loadbearinglaci | @mattstokes9 Bluesky: @loadbearingbeams.bsky.social  

Have you ever experienced Scripture leaping off the page and speaking directly to your life? While camping in Crested Butte with my family, God highlighted Exodus 8:22-23 in a way that changed everything for me. As morning sunlight danced across the pond near our campsite, these ancient words about God making a "distinction" between His people and others pierced straight to my heart.The Hebrew word for "distinction" actually means "redemption" – revealing that God wasn't just separating His people from plagues but marking them for something profound. This revelation came during a week when our world was commemorating 9/11 and reeling from the attempted assassination of Charlie Kirk. Amid such chaos and darkness, God whispered assurance: "I've got you in Goshen."The story of God's people in Goshen isn't merely ancient history – it's a living parable for believers today. In our current landscape of fear, division, and uncertainty, God continues to make a distinction, setting apart those who belong to Him. This brings tremendous hope! Even when darkness seems overwhelming, God's people were not overcome then, and they will not be overcome now.Over the next seven episodes, we'll journey through this powerful theme, exploring God's provision, protection, purpose, prayer, preparation, and power as demonstrated in Goshen and relevant to our lives today. Whether you're a long-time follower of Christ or someone curious about what it means to have a relationship with God, these conversations are for you.We don't have to navigate these challenging times alone. God is working in and through us, creating these "Days of Distinction." Join us as we discover together how God has you in your own Goshen. Subscribe now and be encouraged as we seek Him and speak His truth into the lives of those entrusted to us.______________________The Family Disciple Me ministry exists to catalyze devotion driven discipleship in our homes and around the world. We believe that discipleship starts with a conversation, and FDM provides free, easily-accessible, biblical resources to encourage these meaningful conversations along life's way. Sign up through our website to be "the first to know" about upcoming releases and resources (including the FDM App - coming soon!!!) You can also follow Family Disciple Me on social media. Family Disciple Me is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit ministry, and all donations are tax deductible. More information, blogs, statement of faith and contact info can be found at familydiscipleme.org

Hey there! It's Michael here — and welcome back to another Happy English Sunday Speak. Every Sunday, I'll be here with a quick one-point tip to help you speak English more naturally.One thing you need to know how to do in English is to communicate that you understood what someone said. Like if someone gives you directions on the street. You could say, Oh ok, I understand. And sure, that's correct English — but it can sound a little formal or stiff in everyday conversation. In everyday, English conversation, we use the compact form of I understand, gotcha. Gotcha is the short and quick version of “I got what you said.” “I gah-twa-cha-said” “gotcha!Like, your friend says, “Let's meet at 7 instead of 6.” You can just reply, “Gotcha.”Or your coworker says, “Don't forget to send that email before lunch.” You can answer, “Gotcha.”Or if someone gives you directions — “Turn left at the bank and then right at the station.” — you can simply say, “turn left, and then right. Gotcha.”It's short, it's casual, and it sounds super natural. So next time instead of “I understand,” try saying “Gotcha.”So what do you think of these Sunday Speak podcasts? Leave a comment below!Join my Podcast Learner's Study Group here: https://learn.myhappyenglish.com/plsgVisit my website for over 3,000 free English lessons: https://www.myhappyenglish.com/My AI English Tutor is HERE 

Dr. Len Tau, aka the Reviews Doctor, is on the podcast. With Kiera, he goes into the most critical nuts and bolts of making sure your practice stands out (or at least keeps pace with) online reviews amid AI. He explains jargon terms like ranking power and factors and velocity of reviews, whether or not you should actually be responding to reviews of your practice, and a ton more. Visit SuperchargeYourDentalPractice.com and enter the code RAVING to save $100 on registration for Dr. Tau's annual conference. About Dr. Tau Dr. Len Tau thrives on helping practices maximize their online reputation, marketing, and social media strategies. As a speaker, Len is known for his lively and engaging presentations packed with ready-to-use strategies. He regularly travels the country sharing his marketing brilliance and passion for practice growth with audiences. As a consultant, he offers practice leaders with real-world solutions tailored to fit their specific challenges and opportunities. Len loves to help doctors and their teams understand and implement successful online systems to build their practice. He currently serves as general manager of the Dental for Birdeye Reputation Marketing Software. Selected as one of Philadelphia's Top Dentists by Philadelphia Magazine, he continues to experience growth year after year in his fee-for-service practice focusing on general, cosmetic, reconstructive and implant dentistry. Following his father into the dental profession, Len graduated from Tufts University School of Dental Medicine and continues to pursue ongoing continuing education opportunities. He has had the privilege of serving patients for two decades. He is an active member of numerous professional organizations including the American Dental Association, the Pennsylvania Dental Association, the Academy of General Dentistry, the Eastern Dental Society, the Northeast Philadelphia Dental Implant Study Club, and the American Academy of Clear Aligners. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Kiera Dent (00:00) Hello, Dental Team listeners. This is Kiera and today I am so excited. This is one of my dear friends. We've known each other for several years in the industry. I'm super freaking pumped. I'm going actually be at his event next year in September. Little teaser. Stay tuned. He's got an amazing event he does every year in September. I have Dr. Len Tau. He is one of my faves. He is better known ⁓ as an authority in the dental consulting world, reputation marketing, and a practice growth. He's recognized by dentistry today as a top dental consultant for eight straight years.   He is the author of Raving Patients and 100 plus tips to 105 star reviews in a hundred days. Like this man knows how to do it. He's one of my faves. We really do collaborate on so many fun things. After 20 plus years in clinical practice, he now helps dentists nationwide, increase revenue, case acceptance and visibility. He leads the dental vision at BirdEye, hosts the Raving Patients podcast and runs the Supercharger Dental Practice Conference, which is the one I was alluding to that we're gonna be at next year in September, empowering practices to thrive in today's competitive landscape.   He's truly one of my faves. And today we're gonna dig into like, how do you get online reviews? But Len, welcome. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast. How are you today?   Dr. Len Tau (01:06) I'm good, thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here.   Kiera Dent (01:08) Of course. And this just came about because Len like, let's just do a little teaser. You're prepping full like steam ahead right now for your event that's coming up in September in Florida. ⁓ I love like the last time you and I were on the podcast, we talked about you in clinical dentistry. And then we reconnected after some time and you've left the chair, you're living your best life and you full blown gone into the event space. So just like, I know we're gonna get into like online reviews and how AI is changing that it's going to be just a really, really fun episode today. But tell us a little bit like   How is it going from like full blown dentist in the chair to now full blown events, like running these awesome events that we're super excited to be a part. Just kind of give me a little insight to that.   Dr. Len Tau (01:46) Well, it's been, it's been a lot of, a lot of fun. It's been very different, obviously, you know, for 23 years, I practiced dentistry, um, for about 12 of those, 13 of those who was full time. And then I went part time in 2017 until I sold and retired in 2022. Um, but one of the things I've grew up on in dentistry was going to dental events and, the big, the ones, the small ones, you know, all over the country and as a dentist first, and then as a vendor.   Kiera Dent (02:08) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (02:15) Um, since 2013 or 14, so a long time in the space. know, one of the things that really hit me was that the events are not really put on very well. They're not, um, you know, whether you, if you're a dentist, there's issues when you're a vendor, there's issues. And I said, you know what? I want to change the game. And, um, one of my goals when I retired from dentistry was to start putting on events. So in 2023, um, in, in September, we did an event in Delray had 208.   Kiera Dent (02:25) Right.   Dr. Len Tau (02:44) Dennis there, 33 sponsors. was, first day was business, second day was marketing. Excuse me. First day was marketing. Second day was business. Had a 13, 14 speakers. It went off better than I could ever imagined. I then moved to the last year in 2024 to Scottsdale. And we were at the Scott Resort and Spa, which is a beautiful hotel and the event was good. It wasn't great. Definitely moving to different coasts.   I felt there was not as much, know, engagement, excitement about the event. So I, my family and my wife and I decided, Hey, we're going to do this. Let's have people come down to me. I live in beautiful, you know, part of Florida. we're having this year's event and the next three of them at super at, ⁓ at pure 66, a brand new hotel, ⁓ in Fort Lauderdale. It's literally half hour from my house, five miles from the airport, easy to get to. So this year event is September 26th and 27th.   Kiera Dent (03:32) Bye.   you   No.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (03:45) We've got 14 speakers, ⁓ mixture of business and marketing. So we've got people talking about social media, about content. We have people talking about saving money on taxes. We're talking about how to become a fee-for-service practice. ⁓ So a lot of different great content and top speakers, Steve Rasner, Paul Goodman, ⁓ Jeff Buski, ⁓ Richard, Rich Maddow. So some real, real heavy hitters. And then some people who people haven't really heard of, Melanie Diesel, who's new in the dental industry.   So, but I like to do it differently and my events are very high end. You come, you're going to see things you probably have never seen before. I give a ton of time to the vendors so the vendors love me because they make sure that they get integration or interaction with the attendees. So you're going to be speaking in 2026, same weekend at September 25th and 26th in 2026, same hotel, pure 66.   Kiera Dent (04:28) Sure.   Yeah.   Dr. Len Tau (04:40) We're ramping things up right now. We're literally a month out from the events. still have people signing up. I still have people wanting to reach out as sponsors. And it's, it's, it's, is the fun time for me. Cause when I'm done, I'm, you know, I get a couple of months of break and then I start promoting 2027 again. So ⁓ it's been a good time. I really enjoy it. And I find that I've kind of ⁓ created something that's very different and the attendees really enjoy it and the vendors really enjoy it. So if I can make everybody happy,   Kiera Dent (04:45) No.   Dr. Len Tau (05:09) That's all I'm looking to do here.   Kiera Dent (05:11) ⁓ and Len, I hope the audience, if they can't see it, they can hear it. I think it's so fun because I mean, I've seen you in different spaces in your career, in your life. And there is just this like giddy, like younger version of Len that I feel is emerging of like, it's like giddy boyhood, like excitement of I'm excited to put these on. I'm excited to do these events. And it just makes me so happy for you. And what I think I'm hearing is yes, attendees are happy. Vendors are happy. But I also hear that Len is very happy and to do something   in dentistry is just very, very fun. It's very exciting. And so we're jazzed. I'm really excited. I love good events. I love great time. I love to help. love business marketing. Everybody can take that. That's not Kiera's jam. Like I, that's why I wanted to bring you on. You guys are very good at marketing. You're very good at that space. but to talk about how to help people have their best lives to grow the practices that they want to grow. I think you and I are so synergistic in that. So we're super excited and I love, I mean, I'm not going to highlight the fact that there were   a couple of sixes in that is September 26 at Pier 66. You guys hopefully like, I like the alliteration. Don't put anything weird on it guys, but I do appreciate that you made it easier. September six and nines flipped upside down are a six. Like hopefully everybody can remember September 26, Pier 66. It'll be a good time in 2026. I mean, we got four lines, so we're okay. We've at least got four sixes, not we didn't end on three, but I really hope an exciting step. We'll make sure we put some info for people.   For this year and for next year, I think it'll be a fun time. Dental A Team will be there, so come hang out with us. ⁓ Len, I'm super excited. I will not spoil secrets, but a lot of the things he told me for the events, I will say he does put his heart and soul into it. So Len, excited about that. Thank you for sharing. Good luck for this year. We're gonna be rooting you on this year and next year. And now let's pivot. Let's go into like your jam. You're in BirdEye, you're in marketing, you're on online reviews. AI has come into the scene. Practices are changing.   I also will say, I hope everybody listens to you of their like succession story. You hung up the hand piece, but you are still full steam ahead in dentistry. And so I hope people see that like there is no path to dentistry. Like you just, it's a, it's a beautiful world that you're in. So let's talk though, online reviews, AI, how is this working? How do we make sure that practices are still being visible? Chat GPT is on, on the prowl.   There are clients signing up with us now that have found us on chat. GPT, which is so random. It's changing how people have been doing things. Walk me through. What are you seeing with these online reviews? The importance, how to bring AI in? Like, let's just kind of go in a rift on how practices can still be visible with AIs. Like just showing up to the scene.   Dr. Len Tau (07:43) So I wanna talk about chat CPT for a second. ⁓ I refer to it as my best friend. ⁓ It helps me edit. No, I haven't named it yet. No, I haven't named it. ⁓ you have?   Kiera Dent (07:50) Have you named it? I've got to just ask Len. Have you named? I have! Me and Chet,   I had a name and now her name is Wanda. I don't know why, I don't even know where Wanda came, but people are like, here, are you hanging out with Wanda again? Cause I agree. Like they're our best friends. So go on Len. I can't wait to hear what you name your Chet GPT cause mine is currently Wanda.   Dr. Len Tau (08:06) I'll have to, I   have to name it now that I have to think of something. ⁓ but no, I started using it. I'm like, this is really helpful and it's only gotten better. And, just to give you an idea is, ⁓ my wife and I, and my son, my son just graduated high school. He's literally just started his freshman year at, university of Florida on a free ride. ⁓ smart, smart ass kid. I'm very proud of him. But, you know, and I travel a ton, but I travel a ton for business and I made a commitment. I think I told you that,   Kiera Dent (08:25) Boo? Yeah.   Dr. Len Tau (08:35) during the summer when he was going away for school, I was not going to travel. So from March to literally next week, beginning of September, I haven't traveled at all for business. we did plan some really great travel for our personal lives. And one of the things we did was we had a cruise, a 17 day cruise to Europe. ⁓ And when I decided I did not want to do the excursions to the cruise, cause they're really expensive and you're with all these people. I prefer to kind of just go and tour myself.   Kiera Dent (08:44) It's awesome.   Dr. Len Tau (09:05) So I use ChatGPT in every city. And I said, I'm going to the city. This is what I'm going to get in. This is the cruise I'm going on. It got the cruise itinerary. And I said, I want to set up private tours in every city with different people. And it helped me pick the best tour guides. They referred me to a website called Tours by Local, which is an amazing website that you can meet people who are local that will take you around.   show you the city and it was amazing. It was amazing. So I thank Chachi PT for doing that because I wouldn't have known about half these things if I didn't do it. And in fact, one of the women, and actually the very first place you went to, which was in Split, Croatia, which was beautiful. I told her that literally that's kind of how I went down this road was I asked Chachi PT, what should I do in Split? And they said, you need to use this tour guide. She's the highest rated tour guide and has the best reviews on tours by local. like,   What's towards by local? And that started this whole thing. So she was, she was amazed to hear that. So, ⁓ I have been using Chad GPT for a long time, like I said, and even now it is people I know type in, know, get me to the best dentists in the area. And it's very much based on reviews. So you have to be a highly rated practice. you may not believe in reviews and if you do, think you're not smart, but you know, if, if you want to be at the forefront of where people are looking,   Kiera Dent (09:58) Yeah.   Yes.   Dr. Len Tau (10:25) You have to generate reviews in a significant amount. Velocity now, which is how often you're getting them, is one of the biggest ranking factors on Google, whether you want to believe chat GPT or not. ⁓ But you have to get reviews. You can't, you know, rest on your laurels and say, well, I have enough because you never have enough. Okay. And, ⁓ and you've got to let Google rank you high. And there's been a big discrepancy in the industry, a big, I don't want to say a misunderstanding.   Kiera Dent (10:43) read.   Dr. Len Tau (10:52) But I've been in the review space now since 2013, so 12 years. And in the past, dentists thought that if they get reviews, they're going to rank. And that's not the way it is anymore. If you have reviews, but don't pay attention to the other ranking factors, you actually don't rank well. And that's a problem. So, chat GPT AI is so important, but you still got to dominate Google. You still got to get to the top of the pages.   And that's really where the direction is going. and if you aren't there now and you are ignoring it, you're never going to get there. So I would love to talk to you about our list in instruct or educate the listeners and viewers of these ranking factors that they need, need to pay attention to, or they're going to be left behind when it comes to ranking on Google.   Kiera Dent (11:27) Yeah.   absolutely. And I'm excited for this too, because, I did notice that you've got to like, AI is just crawling the web. That's where it's getting, it's being taught. It's crawls it. It looks through all of it. And so agreed with you. have a lot of clients and like, we want the secret pill of marketing. And I might get your reviews up. Like it is constant and consistent that if you get those reviews up and you bring pieces to the table, that people literally like that's what's going to rank you higher. So I'm excited, Len to, to dig in deeper because it is like how   getting more reviews, but to hear that there's more beyond just the reviews really can help these offices like get the best bang for their buck, help more practices. And I'm like, it used to be when I first started consulting when I used to tell offices get to like 100 Google reviews. It is now I'm pushing people like five, six, 700 reviews that you need to be getting ranked into. And I don't know if you're seeing like a cutoff line or if it matters on that. So I'm really excited to dive into like, what are the rankings? What are the pieces? Is there a difference? But I'm like now   100 reviews, when I look at somebody I'm like, hmm, like if there's another dental practice that has maybe 400, 500 new clients come on, the first thing I do is I go look them up to see how many reviews do you have? And I'm shocked at how many dental practices actually are not showing up when I Google their names and they're like, no, no, care, we're here. And I'm like, but if I'm a prospective new client that doesn't work in your practice and I don't see you all the time and I just tried to find you and I'm looking for you.   How many patients who are not looking for you are not finding you as well. So yeah, take us away, and I'm super curious, very intrigued by this. It's fascinating. And I'll also say, because AI is new, feel like people got like a reset slate. Like, hey, you can actually get back into the game if you haven't been into the game, if you just start playing now. If you don't, I agree with you. I do think that you will unfortunately get obliterated without trying if you don't get into the game now.   Dr. Len Tau (13:28) 100 % so and I couldn't agree with you more. So the best thing to do here is if you're listening to this, I want you to go to a Google search and I want you to type your practice name in. Okay, so that's the first thing to do. Right.   Kiera Dent (13:39) and not in your office. Don't do it in   your office. Go somewhere else. Like try it somewhere else.   Dr. Len Tau (13:44) Right, well, and 100%, that's another thing is that if you're gonna look up your ranking specifically, you do not wanna do that from your office location, okay? Because you're not gonna get real results. You also wanna go into incognito mode or private browsing mode on your phone or your computer if you're doing that to check ranking. But this is not specifically about ranking. This is more about how you appear online. So go to Google and type in your practice name. Not your name unless it's the name of the practice, but your business name, okay?   Kiera Dent (13:52) Yes.   Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (14:13) and it doesn't have to be what's registered with the state board. It's how you, when you answer the phone, what you say, okay? Pennsylvania Center for Dental Excellence was my practice name, okay? So you wanna look yourself up. So these are some of the ranking factors that Google looks at. Obviously one of them is your total number of reviews you have. Definitely a ranking factor, but the total number has not been as important as some other factors as well. So.   Kiera Dent (14:20) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (14:40) Average number of reviews in the industry right now is about 350. It used to be like 100 was the golden number. Now 350 is the average in the industry. So are you average? Are you below average or are above average? Okay, that's something to look at. The second ranking factor, which is even more important is the velocity of reviews. So how many reviews, how often you're getting them. Okay, so if you're getting once every two weeks, not enough. If you're getting them once every week,   Kiera Dent (14:46) Yes.   Dr. Len Tau (15:10) Not enough. You don't need them every single day, but two or three every single week is ideal. Okay, because you think two or three every week gives you eight to 15 a month times 12 months is 100 reviews a year, which is a nice number. Okay, so you have to have that velocity. All right. Third ranking factor is the total score, your average number of stars. So   I would like you to be anywhere from 4.6 to five stars. Okay. I don't think you have to be only five stars. think there's a negativity related to that. If you're only five star reviews, but I also don't want you to below 4.5. Okay. ⁓ And if you're at 4.3, 4.2, or even 4.1, another better review or two, and you're to be in the threes. And that's really where you don't want to go. Cause you lose a huge percentage of patients who may come in if you're less than four stars. Okay. Another ranking factor.   is the primary category. So how do you know your primary category? If you look under your Google, your name, will say right where the stars is, will say, hopefully dentist in your town or dentist in your county or dentist in your city. Okay. So your primary category should be dentist because we're a dental practice. Okay. If you're an oral surgeon, you may want it to be oral and actual facial surgeon. If you're an endodontist, want it to say endodontist. You don't want it to say dentist if you're a specialist. Okay.   ⁓ That's a big ranking factor and I'll give you an example. I, ⁓ my wife had some plastic surgery over the last couple of years and we were referred to that doctor. So we didn't need to search for him. We were referred to him. went in, we liked him, we used his services. ⁓ And of course, being a plastic surgeon, I talked to him about reviews. He now uses BirdEye, but he had me speak in an event that he holds down here in Boca Raton.   And I talked about this exactly. And I asked everybody, cause it was a small group. What is your primary category? And he goes, he said to me, literally, he says, I'm listed as a nurse practitioner. He wasn't listed as a plastic surgeon. He was listed as a nurse practitioner. So his categories were all messed up. So when you actually typed in plastic surgeon near me, he never showed up because his category was wrong. So primary category is a very important ranking factor as well. Now you also have to make sure your secondary categories are also. ⁓   Kiera Dent (17:15) No.   Dr. Len Tau (17:35) ⁓ under ⁓ are there as well as under the proper categories. So secondary categories, if you're a dentist, dental clinic, teeth whitening services, denture care center, orthodontist, if you're doing aligners, if you're endo, you're doing root canals, you can have endodontist. If you do periodontist, can do periodontist. You want to make sure you have nine secondary categories. Okay, if you don't have them, you want to add them.   Now, how do you add them? It's very easy. You go to Google using ChatGPT or anything and say, how do I add secondary categories to my Google business listing? Okay. It will tell you exactly like a recipe how to do it. You need to add those secondary categories. All right. And if you want help doing it, you can always reach out to me. The last ranking factor, which is really important is making sure that the practices name, address, and phone number is consistent. Okay. So just to be clear, most   website companies do not do local SEO. They do website SEO, which is making sure the website is SEOed so the website ranks higher on the organic rankings. We're talking about getting the Google business page ranking higher, which the website companies are not focused on. So when it comes to the name, address and phone number, is it consistent? You have to be consistent. And this is a Google requirement.   It is not a patient thing. It's not a me thing or you thing. It's a Google requirement that this data is consistent. So the name is obviously important. So if you have the and or the ampersand, you may find things inconsistent. When it comes to the address, if you have, you know, South State Streets, Unit 510, you can have South or S, you can have Street or ST, and then you can have Suite, Unit, Number, or STE.   All these variations need to be consistent. So one of them has to be done and one and stuck with. And then if you are using a tracking number for whatever reason on your Google business listing, you may find your inconsistent there as well. So when you make everything consistent and you get a higher velocity of reviews, guess what happens over time? You rank higher on the maps. And when you rank higher on the maps, you get more visible for patients to find you. So that's where the secret sauce is. And   Not that this is a sales pitch about BirdEye, but that's exactly what BirdEye does. BirdEye does those. We check all those boxes for you. And then what ends up happening is a practices get more reviews. But more importantly, when they ask patients how they find them, they're going to see that they found them because of their ranking online and the reviews drove them to the practice. So that's how this whole thing plays a role in getting a practice more visible and credible.   Kiera Dent (20:06) Thank   Wow. So I was over here like taking a lot of notes, which I really loved. I love the number, the 350 at the average, the velocity, like three to five per week you were saying. It doesn't need to be an everyday, but I do agree like them consistently coming through the total score, the 4.6 to five primary category, secondary category, making sure we have nine. And then you were talking about like the practice name, phone number, all of that has to be consistent. So the addresses have to be the same. And that's going to help you rank higher.   Did I miss anything? Those are my notes, Len. And I'm just curious, like, did I catch them all? Because there was a lot of pieces to consider. And then I have some follow ups as well. So like, did I miss anything in that list?   Dr. Len Tau (21:02) No, I   think you got it all there.   Kiera Dent (21:06) Okay, so hopefully that was a good recap for everybody. If you were listening, I tried to like summarize everything he said, because I really feel that those are super valuable pieces to know. Now, Len, there's a couple of things that happen and I'm very curious of what you've seen. Maybe you know, maybe you don't know. It's just a riff for me genuinely curious over here. Does it impact for the business to respond to the reviews? Because I know there was like a big misnomer out there like for a while, like you have to respond to every single review that helps you rank higher. What's the   What's kind of the lay of the land right now responding to the reviews that come in?   Dr. Len Tau (21:39) So there's been a big push over the years to respond to reviews. And there's also been those naysayers who don't want you to respond to reviews. So I want to make this very clear. When you respond to a review and you acknowledge them as a patient, you are technically violating HIPAA. Okay. Now by the letter of the law, if you do that, you violated HIPAA and can be in trouble. Now in all the years I've been doing this, I've only seen one   Kiera Dent (21:49) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (22:08) example of a positive review being responded to and the dentist got in trouble. Okay. So if someone writes a review for you and it's five stars and you say, thank you so much for your feedback. We were glad you had a great experience in our practice. Okay. You technically violated HIPAA there because you acknowledged that they came into the practice. I don't think you'll ever run into any problems with that. I don't, I've never seen any instance when a, when a practice has got into trouble. But again, by the letter of the law, it's a violation.   Here's where the person ran into a problem. Okay. So the review in question, the patient wrote, I'm so happy with my appearance after I went to so-and-so's dental office. I think they were in Texas. The dentist responded, we're so happy that you, thank you so much for your review. We're so happy that you loved our magic needles. Okay. So it, from what I understand is the patient had Botox or   dermal fillers placed and that's what they call their magic needles. So the patient wrote, wrote a letter to the practice saying, I didn't appreciate you letting the world know that I had Botox done and asked for the review response to be taken down, which the dentist immediately did. Took it down and apologized, but it really pissed the patient off and the patient sued the dentist and won. Okay. Because the dentist went out of their way to   Kiera Dent (23:08) Mm-hmm.   Right.   Dr. Len Tau (23:33) you know, release private information that wasn't supposed to be done. So in that case, you shouldn't be doing that. Okay. Now on the same note, I would be very careful responding.   Kiera Dent (23:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (23:45) to a review that's left by a negative, a negative review that's written by a patient. I would be very careful responding publicly to that because it's very hard to respond without violating HIPAA. So a simple response like, we're sorry to hear about your experience. Please contact the office to discuss the concerns as we're unfortunately unable to comment due to HIPAA release privacy stuff. That's fine. But.   Again, I just not sure it's the best thing to do. So you have to be careful with negative reviews. What it doesn't do is we really haven't found any relationship between responding and ranking. Okay, so you have to, I always leave it up to the people to respond. I like using AI to respond as well, because I think it comes up with HIPAA compliant and really good responses. ⁓ But you have to decide what you want to do for your own practice.   Kiera Dent (24:16) Mm-hmm.   Interesting.   That's actually really helpful to know. ⁓ Okay, good feedback for people to ponder and decide what they want to do on. The second piece is   some people lose their Google My Business and they're not able to be found. ⁓ And I don't know if you have reasons why. I don't know if it's from like a name change or it's inconsistent. So like a lot of offices have a lot of reviews, but when you go to search them, they're hidden on Google My Business. Like it will show up on the person's side, but nobody externally can find it. Do you have any ideas of like what causes that or what offices can do if they're struggling with that?   Dr. Len Tau (25:11) So I want to clarify that what question you asked there. I'm sorry to ask a question when you asked the question was when you say that you're saying that when they search for their Google business listing, they can't find it or when someone is searching for the office, they're not visible on the maps.   Kiera Dent (25:15) Hey, that's okay.   So when they're searching, so if I just go into Google and I type in like my perfect smile, the website might link, but the Google My Business with all, and they might have like 150 Google reviews, like it might be, like they've got them all and the office can see it when they like log in as like, this is, you own this, but they've lost it and it's no longer visible publicly. Do you know what causes that or how they can get that back? It's okay if you don't, I'm just genuinely curious. Cause I know some offices struggle with this, especially with like name changes of practices.   going through different ownerships. ⁓ Some of them have told me it's like when I changed the name of my practice, it no longer showed up. Like we have all these reviews, but we're not showing up. Do you know what causes that or how practices can get back being visible?   Dr. Len Tau (26:02) Yep. Now that you   asked it that way, so that usually means that your Google business listing has been suspended. And if you can't find it on search, but you see it, means it's suspended in most cases. Name changes, address changes, other things you do can cause it to be suspended. There are, if you look up on use chat GPT, ⁓   and say, why is, why can your Google business page be suspended? There is a list of different reasons why it can get suspended. ⁓ if you're getting reviews the wrong way is a big one. So, like you should not be incentivizing for reviews. And I'm talking about incentivizing the patients. You shouldn't be getting reviews in your physical office space because there's IP address conflicts and location services on the patient's phone. So if you're doing that, not only will you can potentially lose reviews, but you can't get it suspended, but you can look on.   Kiera Dent (26:37) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (26:55) on chat GPT or Google and just say, what are the reasons that your business page can be suspended? And they're there. So usually you have to ⁓ re-approve it or re-verify that page. And there's certain things you do. You'll have to take a video of yourself in front of the practice, showing the address, showing the name of the business on the door. So there's things you will have to do to get it over to Google. So they'll re-verify you. And then once it happens, there's a good chance they'll unsuspend the listing. But that happens for that reason.   Kiera Dent (27:24) Gotcha. Okay. That's super helpful because I know a few offices have struggled with that. So was just curious for that. All right. This has been so helpful to figure out rankings. It's been helpful to understand. ⁓ My last question as we wrap up today on reviews has been so helpful, Len, is how do offices go about like, what are your recommendations? Yes, bird eye, swell, podium. Like there's a lot of review in Weave. I do, I usually recommend using an external one outside of things. think that they like, if they're just, if that's what they do, they're going to be experts at it.   But how can offices ethically and appropriately, like obviously great patient experience, but how do they increase these Google reviews? What are some of the best tactics you've seen to help these offices out?   Dr. Len Tau (28:04) So being biased, I mean, I'm a true believer in BirdEye because we help with the reviews and the ranking part. ⁓ Swell, which is a great product. know the guys who swell really well. A lot of their doctors don't rank well because they don't focus on the listings part of it or the ranking part of it. ⁓ I'm not a fan of Wee from a review perspective because they swell BirdEye and Podium, make it very easy. Weave doesn't. It's just the way we do it with our three other products. ⁓   I always say this, you can get reviews any way you want. The most effective is gonna be use some software, simple as that. But it all starts with the practice and it all starts with, I like to create a reputation culture in the practice, which means you know that every time a patient comes in the practice, that they're going to be evaluating you and reviewing you potentially. And you've gotta be on your best behavior, you've gotta put a happy smile on your face, you gotta treat them like they're the...   Kiera Dent (28:40) Mm-hmm.   Dr. Len Tau (29:00) king of the world, okay? You gotta roll out the red carpet. And if you don't do that, they may write a bad review, okay? But if you don't create that reputation culture, I think it's gonna be hard to get the practice to really accelerate the reviews. So creating that reputation culture using great verbiage skills. I love calling it feedback, not a review. If you call it a review, it sounds like you're begging for it. ⁓ The feedback conversation is much more comfortable to have. So, you know, it's an interesting situation, but if you don't ask, you don't get.   So you've got to ask. I think if you ask and you combine it with a really good software, you'll get a really good number of reviews. If you don't ask, you don't get. It's that simple.   Kiera Dent (29:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   ⁓ well, that was so great. I appreciate this so much. And it's fun to hear about how AI is helping. It's fun to hear about how you still have to be great on Google. So ⁓ I just appreciate you. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate the knowledge you shared. appreciate for offices. I hope they take action and Len any last thoughts, how people can connect with you if they want more help on this. know ⁓ like truly in my opinion, this is the simplest marketing. Everybody wants to like sexy magic pill of marketing. And I'm like, no, it's like really great experience. Ask for the reviews, ask for the feedback.   like rank so that way people can find you I've had offices that had like three four or five new patients and they're like I need this marketing I need all these things which I'm not here to say not to do it but I will say great reviews will boost you very quickly so Len any last thoughts you've got how people can connect with you because it's been truly just an incredible episode today   Dr. Len Tau (30:26) So ⁓ I'm around the country a lot. So you can always connect with me in person if I'm at some of these events. If you wanna come to Supercharge, you can connect me there. SuperchargeYourDentalPractice.com You can use the code RAVING to save $100 on registration. ⁓ We also have some scholarships available. So if you do wanna come, you can reach out to me personally. So ⁓ my cell phone's all over the internet. The easiest way, if you have any questions, you want advice, you want help, I'm the guy to reach out to. My phone number is 215.   Kiera Dent (30:40) Awesome.   Dr. Len Tau (30:55) 292-2100. And my best email is Len, L-E-N, at drlentau.com, which is D-R-L-E-N-T-A-U.com. And you can email me, you can text me, you can call me, tell me you heard about me here and you need some advice. I'm more than happy to offer it to you. I do it all the time. ⁓ I love when people reach out to me because they know I'm an expert. So I do it kind of as a favor to people. ⁓ But no, you reach out to me, I'm happy to give advice.   Kiera Dent (31:23) amazing. Len, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm super excited for Supercharge 2025 and especially 2026. So everybody snag that. And truly, I hope you take action from today's podcast. This is easy ways for you to boost your marketing, be found and seen online. And Len, thank you for joining me today. I truly, truly appreciate you.   Dr. Len Tau (31:41) Thank you for having me, Kiera, I appreciate it.   Kiera Dent (31:43) Of course. And for all of you listening, thank you for listening and I'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.  

You wanna sound more natural in English? I'm on it. You want me to teach that kind of lesson? Yeah, will do. You need my help to speak better? Gotcha. Today, that's what we're all about here!In real conversation, we use more relaxed, casual phrases — and they're often shorter and more natural-sounding.  So today, I want to show you some of those everyday expressions that native speakers use instead of formal grammar. You'll sound more fluent — and you'll feel more confident, too.Join my Podcast Learner's Study Group here: https://learn.myhappyenglish.com/plsgVisit my website for over 3,000 free English lessons: https://www.myhappyenglish.com/My AI English Tutor is here

Mens Room Question: How did you get the thing you got?

Mens Room Question: How did you get the thing you got?

It's Murf fuckin' Meyer! Keith and Murf trick you with apparently frivolous thoughts on Superman to help wake you up to the state of the world. Boom! Gotcha! The duo also discusses President Trump overhauling the Smithsonian and history as well as your parents catching your written or drawn “art” as a kid.

Title: Million Dollar Monday - Mike Hoffman Summary: Mike made his first million in real estate during the COVID short-term rental boom, and his last million by flipping outdated vending machine routes into modern micro markets selling unconventional products like shampoo and Tide pods. His next million will likely come from leveraging AI to scale vending and small business operations. He emphasizes the rapid evolution of AI and its ability to replace manual tasks, predicting a near future where AI-powered robots handle everyday chores. Links to Watch and Subscribe: https://youtu.be/1EOavier6ug Bullet Point Highlights: First million: Real estate + COVID timing (short-term rentals) Last million: Vending machines → flipped old routes into micro markets Sold high-ticket items (e.g., $35 shampoo) in vending setups Tech improvements + AI driving down costs, boosting efficiency Next million: Scaling vending/small biz ops with AI tools Believes AI is replacing human roles fast (e.g., virtual assistants) Predicts humanoid AI robots in homes within 5 years Transcript: Seth Bradley (00:00.172) Welcome to Million Dollar Mondays, how to make, keep, and scale a million dollars. Mike is a super successful entrepreneur in the vending machine business and beyond. Tell us, how did you make your first million dollars?   Yeah, Seth, probably actually through real estate and just getting a little bit kind of lucky with timing with COVID and short term rentals and some of that. But yeah, that's probably how I got the first million.   Gotcha. Yeah. Real estate usually plays a role in the everybody's strategy down the line, whether they're in, you know, in that primary business or not, you know, whether they start out there or they end up there, real estate usually plays a part. How'd you make your last million?   Yeah, that's a good question because it's completely different than real estate, but it's actually been vending machines. that's been kind of fun. just, you you talk about product market fit whenever you're an entrepreneur with a business. And that was just kind of the perfect storm right now of traditional vending really kind of being outdated. And we found a product market fit.   with it. Gotcha. Cool. And that was from, was this maybe mostly attributed to kind of buying those routes, those larger routes?   Mike Hoffman (01:14.646) Exactly, yeah, buying old school routes and really kind of flipping them like a house with modern micro markets, charging with different products and what would fit in a vending machine like more of the unorthodox, know, toilet paper and tide pods and things that wouldn't fit in a traditional vending machine. I mean, we'll sell $35 bottles of shampoo in these micro markets. So just kind of go and add it in a different way.   Yeah, and then with the aging population, there's got to be more and more of these things popping up. So there should be more opportunity for people to get involved or for people like yourself to just snag everything, right?   Yeah, think there's no chance I could snag everything, not even just in this town alone that I'm currently in. I mean, machines are getting cheaper, the technology is getting way better with AI. And nowadays, it's not what fits in a vending machine motor. It's okay, what's shelf space? So if it's a bottle of shampoo or a glass Coke, it doesn't matter because it's not just getting thrown down the chute of a traditional machine.   Makes sense, makes sense. Last, how are you planning on making your next million dollars?   I think probably with AI, we're doing a lot of interesting stuff with helping people scale their vending routes that is applicable to any small business. And so I'm really intrigued. Just every time I go down a rabbit hole with some new AI tool, I feel like there's another better one that just came right behind it. So I just think it's kind of that time where you can really get ahead by just learning right now in this kind of wave of AI.   Seth Bradley (02:49.27) Yeah, totally makes sense. mean, people that are not paying attention to AI, whether it's simply using chat GBT instead of Google search are getting left behind quickly because it's just advancing so fast. I can't even imagine what this world's going to look like five years from now, the way that things are moving.   It's crazy. Three years ago when I was working for a tech company selling software to the government, I would have to work with three secretaries to schedule a meeting with the general to sell their software. Now my EA is literally an AI bot and everyone that's scheduling time on my calendar, they don't even know they're talking to a non-human, which is perfect.   Yeah, 100%. I predicted within five years, everybody's going to have a humanoid robot in their home with AI instilled, and they're going to be doing physical things for us at our homes.   I hope so. I hope they can go to Costco, get all our groceries, do our laundry, the dishes.   Yup. Yup. Awesome,   Links from the Show and Guest Info and Links: Seth Bradley's Links: https://x.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.youtube.com/@sethbradleyesq www.facebook.com/sethbradleyesq https://www.threads.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.instagram.com/sethbradleyesq/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethbradleyesq/ https://passiveincomeattorney.com/seth-bradley/ https://www.biggerpockets.com/users/sethbradleyesq https://medium.com/@sethbradleyesq https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en Mike Hoffman's Links: https://www.instagram.com/mikehoffmannofficial/ https://x.com/mrpassive_?lang=en https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedhoffmann/ https://www.tiktok.com/@mr.passive https://www.tiktok.com/@sethbradleyesq?lang=en

Looking for a low-overhead franchise with high profit margins? Wondering how to scale a business fast — even in a pandemic? In this episode of Franchise Envy, I sit down with Jon Schloesser, multi-unit owner of Gotcha Covered, one of the top-rated home services franchises in North America.Jon shares how he and his wife launched their window treatment franchise during the height of COVID — and quickly expanded to three locations across Wisconsin. We cover everything from initial investment costs, commercial vs. residential revenue, to what kind of franchisee fails in this industry.Whether you're researching the best franchises to own in 2025, or you're an aspiring first-time business owner, Jon's brutally honest insights will help you understand what it really takes to succeed.⏱️ TIMESTAMPS – Find What Matters to You Fast:00:00 – Welcome to Franchise Envy01:10 – Meet Jon Schloesser: Gotcha Covered franchisee from Wisconsin02:15 – Why launch during a pandemic? Here's what happened03:40 – How we expanded to 3 locations — fast04:50 – Low-overhead, no-inventory business explained06:20 – The hidden genius behind window covering franchises07:45 – Franchise startup costs & profitability09:30 – Who fails in this business (and why)11:00 – Why ongoing training is crucial for success13:15 – Splitting commercial vs. residential business15:10 – The power of small franchise systems vs. big brands17:30 – Real support from corporate (text the president?)19:00 – Does franchise size really matter?20:40 – One piece of advice for first-time franchise buyers23:00 – Are you a good fit for a franchise?24:15 – Final thoughts & call to action

No BS Newshour Episode #376GOTCHA!(8:50) Attorney General Dana Nessel subpoenaed! Justice is coming.(20:30) Michigan terror suspect on the lam. ICE is on the hunt.(33:22) Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan tries to bury the crimes.  We've unearthed them.(53:20) Red Wings legend Darren McCarty exposes himself. “I'm not that tough.”(4:08) Bad Dad pushed kid down the killer slide.⁠NBN on YouTube⁠⁠: https://www.youtube.com/@NoBSNewshourNBN on iTunes⁠⁠: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/no-bs-newshour-with-charlie-leduff/id1754976617NBN on Spotify⁠⁠: https://open.spotify.com/show/0qMLWg6goiLQCRom8QNndC⁠⁠Like NBN on Facebook⁠⁠:  https://www.facebook.com/LeDuffCharlie⁠⁠Follow to NBN on Twitter : https://x.com/charlieleduff Sponsored by American Coney Island, Pinnacle Wealth Strategies, and XG Service Group

If you've ever wondered why the Church requires a Sunday obligation to attend Mass—even when you're doing other good things like feeding the poor or being kind—this conversation is for you. On The Patrick Madrid Show, Michelle from Kentucky calls in with a question: “If someone skips Mass but still does works of mercy, are they still in mortal sin? That just seems... harsh.” Patrick responds with some Holy Spirit–fueled clarity and compassion. According to Church teaching (and backed up by Scripture), deliberately missing Sunday Mass without a serious reason (illness, caring for someone sick, dangerous travel, etc.) is a grave sin. Why? Because it’s saying "no" to a relationship. You're choosing to ignore Jesus' invitation to the most important family gathering of the week: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. But What If You're a Really Nice Person? Michelle asks, “What about people who are super kind and charitable but don’t go to Mass?” Patrick said: Being nice is good—but it’s not salvific. If goodness alone could save us, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to die on the Cross. Works of mercy done in a state of grace (in union with Christ) are eternally meritorious. Apart from grace, they’re nice, not saving. Jesus Was Pretty Clear “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)“He who hears you hears me; he who rejects you rejects me.” (Luke 10:16)“No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Jesus established His Church with real authority. When the Church says, “Go to Mass every Sunday,” you're being obedient to Christ’s own command. The Family Dinner Analogy (So Good) Patrick compares Sunday Mass to a family dinner: Imagine your parents say, “Everyone needs to be at the table at 6pm.” If one kid says, “Eh, I’ll just eat in my room,” they're disconnecting from the family. That’s what skipping Mass does. It breaks the spiritual family bond. God's Not Looking to Smite You Patrick explains that God isn’t standing there like, “Ha! Gotcha!” In fact, He’s constantly pouring out grace, constantly inviting us back—especially through Confession and the Eucharist. Patrick reminds you that Jesus said some hard truths, but He says them out of love. He wants you home for dinner, forever. Real Talk: If you’ve been skipping Mass... come home. Go to Confession.Get back in the pew.And the Father is always watching for the prodigal child to return.

For more coverage on the issues that matter to you, download the WMAL app, visit WMAL.com or tune in live on WMAL-FM 105.9 from 9:00am-12:00pm Monday-Friday  To join the conversation, check us out on X @WMAL and @ChrisPlanteShow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cruz vs. Carlson on Foreign Policy: Cruz defends a strong U.S. alliance with Israel and supports aggressive action against Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Carlson is portrayed as advocating for isolationism, opposing U.S. involvement in foreign conflicts, and questioning support for Israel. Tensions and “Gotcha” Moments: Carlson challenges Cruz with questions like the population of Iran, which Cruz admits he didn’t know offhand. Cruz criticizes Carlson for using such moments to create viral clips rather than engage in substantive debate. Iranian Threats Against Trump: Cruz cites intelligence and DOJ reports alleging that Iran has plotted to assassinate Donald Trump and former Trump officials. Carlson is skeptical or unaware of these claims, leading to a heated exchange. Accusations of Anti-Israel Bias: Cruz accuses Carlson of obsessively targeting Israel and groups like AIPAC, suggesting a double standard not applied to other U.S. allies. Moral Clarity and American Exceptionalism: Cruz argues against moral relativism, asserting that the U.S. and its leaders are fundamentally different from authoritarian regimes like Russia or Iran. He emphasizes “peace through strength” and a foreign policy based on protecting American interests. Trump’s Position: Trump is quoted supporting Cruz’s stance and reaffirming his own “America First” doctrine, particularly in opposing a nuclear-armed Iran. Please Hit Subscribe to this podcast Right Now. Also Please Subscribe to the 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson and the Ben Ferguson Show Podcast Wherever You get You're Podcasts. Thanks for Listening #seanhannity #hannity #marklevin #levin #charliekirk #megynkelly #tucker #tuckercarlson #glennbeck #benshapiro #shapiro #trump #sexton #bucksexton#rushlimbaugh #limbaugh #whitehouse #senate #congress #thehouse #democrats#republicans #conservative #senator #congressman #congressmen #congresswoman #capitol #president #vicepresident #POTUS #presidentoftheunitedstatesofamerica#SCOTUS #Supremecourt #DonaldTrump #PresidentDonaldTrump #DT #TedCruz #Benferguson #Verdict #justicecorrupted #UnwokeHowtoDefeatCulturalMarxisminAmericaYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruzSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dan and Billy's persistence finally gets Ryan Blaney to admit that everyone in NASCAR is a dirty, rotten cheater. AND LESS TALKING, CARL! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices