Podcasts about Gotcha

Share on
Share on Facebook
Share on Twitter
Share on Reddit
Copy link to clipboard
  • 651PODCASTS
  • 1,094EPISODES
  • 38mAVG DURATION
  • 5WEEKLY NEW EPISODES
  • Jan 5, 2022LATEST

POPULARITY

20122013201420152016201720182019202020212022


Best podcasts about Gotcha

Latest podcast episodes about Gotcha

Nerd’s RPG Variety Cast
304 AD&D 1E Gotcha Monsters: Ear Seekers or Daniels & Dooplegangers

Nerd’s RPG Variety Cast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2022 41:39


I discuss the Daniel controversy, ear seekers in AD&D 1E, Joe vs XP for gold, AD&D actual play switch-a-roo?, more on player empowerment, Karl discusses games he wants to run (call into The GMologist presents podcast if you are interested!), an example of an poorly designed trap from D&D 5E, Cobra Kai Season 4, and more! Calls from Evil Jeff (Minions & Musings) https://anchor.fm/eviljeff Joe (Hindsightless) https://anchor.fm/joe-richter9 Menion aka Rob (Confessions of a Wee Tim'rous Bushi) https://anchor.fm/menion Karl (The GMologist presents) https://anchor.fm/karl-rodriguez Proud member of the Grogtalk Empire having been bestowed the title of The Governor Most Radiant Grandeur Baron The Belligerent Hero of The Valley. https://www.grogcon.com/podcast/ You can leave me a message here on Anchor, at nerdsrpgvarietycast 'at' gmail 'dot' com or find me on the Audio Dungeon Discord. Ray Otus did the art for this show, you can find his blog at http://plundergrounds.blogspot.com/ TJ Drennon provides music for my show. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/jason376/message

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Are you using your resources wisely in order to scale content creation? Are you leveraging partnerships that will help you grow your agency? Content creation is following a classic marketing channel trend and continually evolving every year. If your agency is not keeping up with the increased demand, you're missing out. In this episode of the podcast, Jason talks with Laura Smous and Steve Pockross from Verblio about how agencies are helping their clients do more with content, as well as some common mistakes agencies make when it comes to content creation. They'll also share the biggest investments your agency needs to make in 2022 and how your content efforts can work with AI. Laura Smous is the VP of Product Marketing at Verblio and Steve Pockross is the CEO at Verblio, and a three-time guest of the Smart Agency Masterclass. He believes content is still king, especially in a struggling economy. 3 Golden Nuggets Top trends in content creation entering 2022. Keeping up with content demands has become increasingly more challenging for agencies. Clients need original content, but that doesn't necessarily mean reinventing the wheel. Verblio's survey of agencies has shown the current trends include refreshing old content and repurposing content in new ways (like turning videos into blogs). Mistakes agencies are making in content creation. Verblio has identified 2 key mistakes they're seeing agencies make when it comes to content. First, an over-reliance on technology to create content results in sameness. AI has a place in content creation, but using it to create all content is a mistake. Secondly, it's important to have a content lead who sees and touches content as the core function of their job. If your agency is having people wear too many hats it becomes evident in the content output. Use AI for things humans are bad at. As Laura observed, "humans are bad at getting started." While she is not a fan of using AI to write content, she says there is a place for it in helping humans get started with content. Some great uses for AI is sales scripts, outlines, and other repeatable functions. The Changes Your Agency Should Make in Order to Scale Content Creation in 2022 Jason: [00:00:00] Welcome back, agency owners. I'm excited, I have another amazing two guests coming on. It's been a long time since I've done a three-way on the podcast and we're going to talk about the three biggest investments you can do next year. We're going to talk about Verblio's survey that they did to all these agency owners that you need to be aware of. So let's go ahead and get into the show. Hey, Laura and Steve. Welcome to the show. Laura: [00:00:32] Hi! Happy to be here. Steve: [00:00:33] Hey, Jason. Good to be back. Jason: [00:00:35] Awesome. Well, Steve, welcome back. Laura, welcome to the show. So I'm going to start with ladies first. Tell us who you are and what do you do? And then we'll go to we'll. Maybe get to Steve later. Laura: [00:00:48] Sure. Well, I'm Laura Smous. I'm the VP of product marketing at Verblio. We're a content creation marketplace and platform. And I've been doing some sort of messing around at the intersection of marketing and technology for over a couple decades now, with the last number of years really focused on product marketing for high growth startups. So really happy to join. Jason: [00:01:09] Awesome. Well, welcome to the show. And, Steve, I don't know how we'd let you back on, but tell us who you are and what you do? Steve: [00:01:20] It's good to be back. I'm Steve Pockross. I'm the CEO of Verblio. I've been here for five years. I have been working in startups, nonprofits, and Fortune 500's for the last 20 something years, always in high-growth industries. And Verblio is the intersection of my, two of my favorite places, the future of marketing and the future of work. Jason: [00:01:35] I love it. I love it. Well, let's go ahead and get into why everyone's listening, which is every year you guys do an amazing survey and you always find out really cool stuff. So what have you found out in the survey? What are kind of the three big investments that we need to be thinking about for 2022? Laura: [00:01:55] Well, I think the first piece is just that the demand for content has only increased. So, uh, that's a really good thing for all of us, but it is a, perhaps a really frustrating thing for a lot of the agencies that we've been polling because they're having a lot of the, the second piece of that would be they're having a lot of trouble meeting that demand. So, uh, whether it's hiring, whether it's figuring out how to um, assemble a team of freelancers or whether it's leveraging technology or platforms like ours, they're having a lot of trouble making it work to meet that demand. So they know there's this huge growth opportunity, but rising to the challenge is tough. And I think along with that, there's all of the change that you deal with at any time. Um, but it's just accelerated. So, um, new content types, huge focus on video. And I think that the biggest piece is figuring out where does AI fit into this puzzle? Is it friend or foe for digital agencies and the ones who are smart enough to figure out how to leverage that are really seeing an unfair advantage? Jason: [00:02:50] Awesome. Let's talk about how are certain things changing in our market around blog posts or landing pages or, or the use of video? What are you guys seeing? Laura: [00:03:03] Well, I think the first is just that, you know, there was already a challenge with content saturation, um, and the, the bar for content quality and what it takes to actually get noticed and, and sort of, and maintain performance was already really high. But I think with the pandemic, um, there's been this massive rush online, so there's just more stuff, right? So the definition of what's good, um, what's performing content, whether it be a blog post or a landing page has changed and keeps changing. I think that's, that's the first piece. And then I'm also understanding that it's not an option, really not to do video, not to have mixed media content and different ways to consume your content and to have that really be not only some standalone pieces, but part of everything you do. So really enhancing what used to just be written form content so that it's more engaging so that more audiences can engage with it and it can live in more places successfully. Jason: [00:03:53] Yeah. You know, when I first started in this business eight years ago, I can't, oh my gosh. I can't believe it. I don't think I had this many gray hairs, Steve or Laura, but, um, I saw so many people just writing blog posts and that's all they were doing. And I felt like there was a lot of tone being lost. And then I also saw when I just started doing video because I was a horrible writer before we started using you guys. Like literally it was like, people were like, you're an idiot, no more writing. But I like to kind of do the combo of you know, using all of the different mediums. When I was made aware of you guys, I really liked it because I was like, hey, I'm going to send you my videos, and then you guys kind of summarize this in a blog post, and then we can turn it into micro-content, all that kind of different, really cool stuff. Do you find that a lot of agencies that are using you or are they using you for that? Or what do you see the trends going into? Laura: [00:04:50] I think the really smart ones are. And I think that's one of the cool things. I mean, there are a lot of, um, agencies and, and direct brands that are using us to just build their core business. They've recognized that content is not only a thing that's necessary to grow a successful business, but it can actually be at the heart of the business itself. So we're certainly seeing that definitely with niche agencies that really, um, understand that they can focus in one specific area. They can really scale and knock it out of the park by leveraging Verblio as a close partner. But I think there's still quite a few that focus on just one content type, just delivering it in one way and haven't really looked at how do you, how do you think about content is really being, repurposable chopping it up and making the most out of basically every dollar you spend there by making sure that it can live across channels and that people can consume it, how they want to consume it. And knowing that a lot of us are on the go, we're almost entirely on mobile devices, but we do still have that human need for a deep, rich, engaging content. So it's not one or the other. Um, and I think that that's a thing, you know, a trend that is going away is really over-relying on technology and not thinking about the fact that we do need this really well-rounded content mix to have a, to have an effective content effort. Steve: [00:06:02] And so one of the things that it follows is content is really following a classic marketing channel trend, which is it matures every single year. And as it matures, basically things that were cutting edge before now become must-haves. So what we're finding is you've got your marketers who are still doing the must-haves, which is blogs. It just requires more every year. So now it requires blogs, SEO optimization, more frequency, more video. And then we have this next layer of agencies that are looking at how do you actually use this really powerful channel to create more of a competitive advantage, especially as it becoming a more powerful marketing channel. And so we have a lot of agencies that are investing in, how do you go much bigger than ever thought of before if you have a partner that can help you provide it to do hundreds of pieces a month and really create a competitive moat? Uh, and so we're seeing these really kind of these three different types of agencies. And I think it's also one other thing point to pull out is it really depends on what vertical is your agency's looking for. If you're in a super laggard industry, you can use some of the old techniques and it still works. But if you're in a super competitive one like, you know, personal injury attorneys where everyone's fighting tooth and nail in order to be successful, you really have to be at the edge. Jason: [00:07:12] And so is the solution just do more like more content? Is that the trend that you guys see? Laura: [00:07:19] I think it's a little more nuanced in that. I think one piece is do more. So all the things that were true before is still true, right? You still need consistency, you still need frequency. Um, and that's kind of the bummer, right? Is those, those have become table stakes. But now we're starting to look at things like content refreshes as important a part of your content strategy as new content creation. And so there's a, there's a level of sophistication required to understand what's the right mix for, for any given client, for any given month, um, what should you be focusing on? And that's, I think where it's difficult, um, as an agency to, to do that without a partner, to really even understand what are the options. And then two agencies, I think in general, are somewhat risk averse and hiring more people can be, can be a real dangerous proposition if you don't know that you can maintain that. So I think leveraging a partner that you trust that you can turn on and off scale up and down, um, over time as, as your needs change is a safer way to grow. Also to be able to bring that expertise to your agency without having to always hire. Jason: [00:08:21] So I like that you mentioned content refresh. I did a masterclass for 50 agency owners yesterday, and I talked about the low-hanging fruit in sales. And that's contacting your existing clientele and looking at the old prospects, right? That's a low-hanging fruit. I look at kind of content refreshing is low-hanging fruit for content you've already created. So can you talk a little bit more about how are people doing that? Like, are they looking at Google analytics and being like, man, this page is getting a lot of traffic, but like we've changed a little bit. We should maybe redo this or what? Laura: [00:08:57] Yeah. I mean, there's a few, there's a few different flavors of it. I think that, um, the agencies that we're seeing really take the lead on content refresh, um, understand that they're talking about that and they're able to sort of templatize their strategy or process to match what they're, what they're trying to do. I mean, there are some very straightforward ones. Uh, my people really focusing on, you know, for example, local SEO for personal injury attorneys. You're going to want to make sure that every one of those many, many hundreds of posts or pages is really hyper-focused on a danger in that area, or, you know, things that might happen, things that are really relevant to that specific location. And just going back and making sure that that information is, you know, that the statistics are up to date, um, that it is hyper-relevant to, um, the area, all of that is, um, is working really well. And, and from a strategy perspective, that's pretty formulaic. Then you have the other ones that are going back and saying, ok, we have this really strong performing post. It's declining. How do we understand what's missing now? Maybe what other people have caught up on? What other people who are ranking have added that, you know, looking for content gaps. And then I think there are some that recognize that, you know, content is not really precious anymore, right? They may have thought something was going to do really well, put a lot of time into it. And I think just accepting that the analytics are not telling that story and maybe it's just, you know, the search intent was not there, right? So you may have, uh, thousands of words and it should have been a listicle. You know, something like that, recognizing we're barking up the right tree that people are looking for this, but the way that we did it, isn't working and we need to redo it and make it a better match what people are actually looking for. And then that will, um, be much more successful as part of the mix. Steve: [00:10:35] And we see is kind of, uh, like a it's still formulaing how agencies are gonna work with this the most successfully.  You'll have agencies that are basically saying, hey, we're going to do our table stakes. And then everything left over we'll put into SEO content or into content refreshes. We have agencies that are coming in and saying, hey, our policy is five to 10% of your blogs or your posts will refresh every year. And then we have agencies that are looking at it bigger and basically saying, hey, we think if we use this percentage, could be 35%, ee fresh all of these. This is the cost for all of these, this is the ROI we expect you to get in our, selling them as larger packages. So we're, we're looking forward to the dynamic trends as they evolve with agencies. Laura: [00:11:14] Yeah. And we're, we're finding too that they're, their clients are open to it really, even in terms of what they're charging for it, it's almost an even swap. They're starting to recognize the value and be as willing to pay for content refresh as they are for new content creation provided that they can be sort of walked through how that's going to impact them. Jason: [00:11:32] What should agencies stop doing in the new year that you guys have found? Laura: [00:11:38] Um, I think one thing is, um, maybe an over-reliance on technology. So as, um, you know, we know that the rules change constantly, the algorithms change constantly. So, um, there has been, uh, a huge sort of swarm towards really relying on those tools to tell, to tell us what to write and how to write it. Um, but that's created this sort of sameness in what's out there and, um, they've forgotten the human element, right? So I think that, that complete reliance on technology to do that, thinking that it is really something that can be done without, um, having that human touch I think we'll start to go away. Because uniqueness and sort of authenticity is a piece that is still required for content to perform really well. And you can't get that necessarily out of a machine. Steve: [00:12:22] I'll add that I think there's like a couple of different ways that, so that we have agencies that manage us, the agencies that have a person who's senior level who's in charge of content at their agency who looks at it all the time and it's consistent perform really well. We have, and then we'll have agencies who have a different contact for each member, for each one of their clients to work with Verblio, without having somebody oversee it and how to get the most value from their content. And so we'd really recommend that there's a content lead at your company, whether they're part of the, each one of your client representation or not. Jason: [00:12:55] Gotcha. And for the past year, I've been hearing a lot around AI, around content writing. Where does that fit in? How do you feel that that's changing things in the industry? Laura: [00:13:07] You know, I think for, for folks who are relying on it completely, you know, they are getting a sort of sameness or a lack of originality, uh, in the content. So I think that is, uh, maybe not the direction I'd recommend. I would say that, um, figuring out how to use AI for the things that humans are bad at and use humans for the things humans are good at. So an example of that would be humans are bad at getting started, right? They're bad at doing that first step towards that task and AI, uh, it can really do a lot right now to, um, to give you a content outline, to give you a draft, to help you understand points, you should be hitting to do some of that underlying research, even for, you know, fairly specific topics. You know, we've, uh, we've done a lot of exploration of the tools that are out there and, you know, I could write an article on orthopedic surgery that would at least cover a lot of the bases, right? So kind of getting you to that, uh, jumpstart, uh, is one piece. Humans are also bad at, I think knowing how, uh, how thorough they are, how closely they're following a process. You know, when you think about someone's own ability to determine whether or not they're following a sales script or something like that, not super high. So I think just being really honest about what we're good or bad at, and then using AI for those things. Because it is really good at making sure you can be consistent, repeatable that there's some sort of ability to learn over time, um, and to actually catalog that information. But allowing humans to really focus on, you know, some of that originality and uniqueness bringing voice and tone. AI is improving there and it may get there, but there are still a lot of challenges I think in bringing that, that originality to content that AI has not so far been able to touch. So the marriage of the two really, to me, seems to be the, the ticket. Jason: [00:14:47] That's awesome. Yeah. I'm going to let you guys on a secret. I'm doing the Scooby-Doo moment. I'm really an AI bot. Jason's actually skating. I'm just kidding. That would be cool. If it could do that. Well, this has all been amazing. Is there anything I didn't ask you, um, both that you think would benefit the audience before we wrap up and tell them about you guys, a special offer for the listeners? Laura: [00:15:11] That's a really good question. You know, Steve mentioned having one person be your, you know, your point of contact, something like that, to just make sure that you can leverage efficiencies, you know, pattern match. Um, I think just, uh, thinking about how can you consolidate the types of entities that are creating content in your organization. You know, we have a lot of folks who have internal content teams. They have external freelancers. They're messing around with some different platforms and some different things. They're trying, you know, the, the sort of generic marketplaces, like an Upworker or Fiverr and, um, that's a ton of overhead. And even if you get it right a few times, being able to scale that predictably is super difficult. So, you know, I think. Yeah, agencies should really focus on how can we make our own lives easier and take away some of that overhead and really focus on, um, a handful of scalable resources that can work together. Because, again, focus on what humans are good at. That time and mental energy is much better spent thinking through a strategy for your clients and strategy for your agency growth than it is, um, just doing air traffic control. So that would be my advice. Steve: [00:16:16] I have a totally different line of thought, which is a, I'm just thinking back, Jason, to when you were our first guest on our podcast. When we were trying to, uh, right at the beginning of, uh, March, 2020, and we were talking to about what marketers should do at the downfall. And one of the big things that you stressed was take really good care of your clients. This is when they need you the most. This is like, this is the most important time to be authentic people, to really care about who you're working with. And I think we're at the opposite side of that trend, which is there's so much business to be had by so many companies and we're seeing so many junior level people coming on and working at agencies and scaling as quickly as possible. I would just say, please be really conscious of your clients and the relationships you want to build on the way up. How many can you take on and really do well, because they'll remember it at the downturn too. And we'll be having similar discussions, hopefully, hopefully not soon, but, uh, at the next downturn, we all know that they, they, the cycles keep happening. Jason: [00:17:11] Yeah, anybody can be doing good in business right now. So I love that. It's, it's very customer-focused. Tell us about where people can go, uh, to, you know, try you guys out and tell us a little bit more about that. Laura: [00:17:26] Well, um, anybody listening here can go to verblio.com/smartagency and get, get a nice discount on getting started with Verblio. Um, and you can also find out a lot more about what we do and all the different types of content we can help you with. Jason: [00:17:39] Awesome. Well, guys, really appreciate you guys coming on. Make sure you guys go to verblio.com/smartagency. We've used them for so many years. They do an amazing job. If you're not using them, go try them out. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies
Do You Want to Sell Your Digital Agency in 3-5 Years?

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 2, 2022 17:51


Is it time to sell your digital agency? Considering a merger or acquisition in the near future? John Burns worked in mergers and acquisitions for 15 years when he realized a gap in the market, specifically for agency owners. So 7 years ago, he started Clare Advisors, a company that provides mergers, acquisitions, and financial advisory services to privately-held digital agencies and companies in the marketing, media, and business services industries. In this interview, John discusses what owners should consider preparing to sell their agencies, the common misconceptions of when to sell, and why now is a good time if you're considering selling in the next three to five years. What you need to start preparing. There's a number of factors a buyer would potentially look at in evaluating whether or not they should buy your agency. One of them is profit margin, whether you're consistently making profit and whether your profit is expanding. Also, revenue growth and scalability, since obviously buyers want to buy agencies that are growing and have a lot of momentum. John says the important thing is considering whether you have the infrastructure in place and the right team to grow, over any earn-out or follow-up period. A common misconception. One of the most common questions John gets is around the target revenue for selling. Whether an agency should be at $10 or $5 million and then sell. “This is a common misconception from owners,” he says because people think the right time to sell is when you've topped out at a particular number. Many commonly look to sell a business when their lease is up, and John agrees it could be a factor, so have in mind it may come up. But actually, the right time to sell is when you have the most momentum behind the business and the most wind behind your back. If you're not in this situation and still want to sell, remember that Jason always advises the right time to sell is when you need the money or you hate the business. Thinking about selling soon? We have a very active market right now with a lot of owners who are thinking of potentially selling. There are really low-interest rates, so cash is easy to come by, and a lot of companies have excess working capital on their balance sheets because of either PPP loans or some of the fiscal stimulus. Also, capital gains tax rates are potentially going to increase at some point in the near future. It is a very dynamic climate and John advises taking some of those factors into consideration. Don't necessarily sell sooner than you want, but it is a good time if it's been something you're considering the next 3-5 years. Common Misconceptions About Selling & Tips to Selling Your Agency in The Current Active Market {These transcripts have been auto-generated. While largely accurate, they may contain some errors.} Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Today I have an amazing guest. We're going to talk about valuations and preparing your agency for selling and why you would sell or why you would not sell. So let's go ahead and jump into the show. Hey, John. Welcome to the show. John: [00:00:21] Hey, Jason. Great to be here. Jason: [00:00:22] So tell us who you are and what do you do? John: [00:00:25] Uh, I am the founder and managing director of Claire Advisors. Claire Advisers is a boutique mergers and acquisition and financial advisory firm that specializes exclusively in working with agencies and marketing services companies. Jason: [00:00:38] Cool. And so why did you get into this business? John: [00:00:41] I've been doing mergers and acquisitions for about the last 15 years. Uh, started initially working in New York for a couple of different investment banks. And about seven years ago found there was a real gap in the market in terms of, uh, resources for agency owners specifically related to mergers and acquisitions. So I decided to found Clare Advisors in order to specifically work with boutique agency owners ann the mergers and acquisitions field. Jason: [00:01:12] I wish you just said that, uh, I got into it to pick up women. Because I keep thinking of there's a movie going, like, what do you do? I've been mergers and acquisitions. I've always wanted to say that. And now I'm kind of am and that's the kind of… John: [00:01:25] I was going to say. I think you technically can. Jason: [00:01:28] Well, but I'm married. So I can't. Let's talk about what are some of the things, if someone's listening and they go one day I want to sell. Jason, I want to sell, like you did in your agency or, or like someone else, what do they need to start preparing? John: [00:01:49] So there's a number of factors that a buyer would potentially look at in evaluating whether or not they should buy your firm. They should be looking at profit margin specifically. So whether you're kind of making, whether you're consistently making profit and whether your profit is expanding. Revenue growth, obviously buyers want to buy agencies that are growing as opposed to shrinking and scalability, realistically. It's very common for any deal that happens to specifically have kind of an upfront piece and an earn-out or roll-over equity piece or some piece that's based on value later in the future. And so the important thing to prepare for is that your agency is in a position where you've got a lot of momentum and where you can grow, uh, over the, over the period of the earn-out, um, in order to maximize your valuation. So you need to really have the structure and the infrastructure in place where you're in a good position to grow. Jason: [00:02:44] And how big does someone have to be in order to really kind of start thinking about, hey, I want to possibly sell my business? John: [00:02:54] So there's no predetermined limit in terms of, like I said, in terms of overall value. Firms sell that are two and $3 million of revenue. Firms, obviously sell that or 20, 50, a hundred million dollars of revenue. So deals happen at all kinds of places in the spectrum of size. The main thing I would consider if I was thinking about selling is specifically, do you have the infrastructure in place? Do you have the right team in place to be able to grow over any earn-out or follow up period? Because there will inevitably be a link between the ultimate value that you get and the ability you have to grow the agency under someone else's ownership. Jason: [00:03:33] What are some of the criteria that go into valuation outside of profit? John: [00:03:39] Uh, so the rate of growth, if you're, you know, if you're doubling in size every year, you're certainly going to get a higher valuation than somebody who's growing at, you know, five or 10% or who's flat. I would say the quality of the management team to a certain degree, um, whether you've got that infrastructure and that team in place, and it looks like a team that can really, really scale and really, really grow the business. The quality of your clients is another one. Uh, buyers obviously prefer retainer-based clients. The world is looking less and less like retainers these days and more like project-based work. But then the quality of the clients becomes really, really important. Is this a client that keeps coming back to you for more and more services? Is there consistency in your clients or are you effectively, you know, recreating your pipeline every three to four months? Jason: [00:04:26] Gotcha. And a lot of people think there's a threshold on top-line revenue for when to sell like, oh, I'll get to the million mark or is it based on profit? What, what are you seeing? John: [00:04:39] So the most common question that I get that is a misconception is owner say exactly what you just said, which is I'm going to get to $10 million and then I'm going to sell, I'm going to get to $5 million and then I'm going to sell. The right time to sell is when you have the most momentum behind the business. So specifically, it's not necessarily that you're at $10 million. Um, it's important to be at $10 million dollars if you think that over the next couple of years, you can grow to 11, 12, 13, and 15, because the thing that will hurt you the most is if you decline after you sell during your earn-out period, that'll financially hurt you. And so the ideal time to sell isn't when you've kind of just topped out at a particular number. The best time to sell is when you've got the most momentum behind you and the most wind at your back, going into your earn-out period. Jason: [00:05:31] I've been telling people the best time is when you need the money or you hate the business. John: [00:05:37] Those are alternatives as well. Yes, I agree. Jason: [00:05:40] Alright. But the funny thing, I remember reading a stat many years ago, they said one of the most common reasons why to sell a business is when their lease is up. And I read that… because and then I thought about it and I was like, you know, they got something there because the lease is the longest term commitment that you have. John: [00:06:03] It's certainly a factor that's brought up, especially nowadays of the question of do you have a lease and, just because everybody's working remotely or at least partially remotely, the question of, do you have a lease? How much space is it for? Where is it? And when is it up? That certainly comes up most buyers I know wouldn't make or break their decision based on that one factor, but it is a factor. Jason: [00:06:23] And which deals do you see most? And let's say we value the agencies under 10 million. Agencies under 10 million is it more an asset purchase or are they buying everything? John: [00:06:36] So I would say, generally speaking, most buyers want to do asset purchases as opposed to equity purchases, but that's going to vary between buyer and buyer and specific structure. So I don't think there's, I don't think you can put too much into that as a generalization. It's really going to depend on the individual buyer. Jason: [00:06:58] Let's get real for a minute. Do you want help scaling your agency so you can scale it faster? Now you might've been following my content for a while and you really wanting to accelerate your agency's growth. And maybe you're just too close to your agency and not sure which areas you really need the most help. You know, I hear this all the time from a lot of agency owners, and that's why I brought in a new team member to help you figure out your next step. Now we spent the past couple of months working side-by-side, a little too close, and now we're setting up a free strategy session so you can grow and scale your agency faster. And so I want you to meet Darby. Darby: [00:07:34] Hey guys, I'm Darby. Jason: [00:07:35] If you want to walk through a framework for scaling your agency faster, Darby's the guy. He can assess what's going on in your agency and really help you figure out our next step. He'll be candid, he'll be Frank and he'll be brutally honest. Just schedule a time to chat with Darby. Darby: [00:07:51] That's me. Jason: [00:07:52] No strings attached. He's ready to meet with you. So book a call at jasonswenk.com/darby. That's jasonswenk.com/darby. Darby will spend a little time getting to know you, your agency, your goals together. You'll figure out your next steps for scaling your agency faster checkout and wait for Darby. Darby: [00:08:17] Uh, am I allowed to talk now? Jason: [00:08:19] You can book a call with Darby. Just go to jasonswenk.com/darby and… Darby: [00:08:25] Have a Swenk day. Jason: [00:08:19] And I know when our agency is buying agencies we set a certain kind of requirement. You have to be close to or well, over the million in EBITDA because that's when the multiples really kinda start going up. I, I've always seen kind of anything under that the multiples are really fairly low. Are you seeing the same thing? John: [00:08:56] It varies a little bit, depending on the specifics of the deal and the structure. I wouldn't generally say the multiples are… Generally larger firms get larger multiples, that's a fair generalization to make, but it really depends on the structure. If you are a smaller firm, you can partner with somebody and they can subsequently give you a tremendous amount of business because you do a capability that they don't do. Talk about a social media or a digital agency kind of partnering with a PR firm as an example, if one can open up their client lists to all those services, maybe technically they're selling for a lower multiple than a much larger firm would get. But if they're able to really expand their revenue and expand their profitability in a way that they couldn't do on their own, regardless of kind of where the multiples fall, that's probably a deal that maximizes consideration for the seller. So generally it's true, but it's, it really depends on the structure more specifically. Jason: [00:09:53] And let's talk about what's the most common structure for something like that. John: [00:09:57] Sure. So the typical one that you see in the market is like a three or five-year outs where you get a portion of cash consideration at close. Then there's either some kind of rollover equity or some kind of earn out over a three to five-year period. You actually, as a seller, want a longer earn-out period, if you can do it, if you're, if the timeframe works for you, because it gives you more opportunities to grow, uh. If you have a very short earn-out period, you know, let's say 12 months and let's say COVID happens, or let's say there's a dramatic downturn in the economy, or you lose a client. It's really hard to make up that lost revenue in that lost profitability. Having an earn-out for at least a couple of years or a few years, at least gives you a couple of opportunities in the event anything goes wrong to subsequently build back up and still try to maximize your valuation. Jason: [00:10:47] Yeah. And I always tell everybody, you know, like the cool thing we do at Republics is where there's no timeframe on there now. It's just when you hit it, you hit it. And we want you to hit it. Where, when I went through, I did well, but I could have done, I lost millions in the earn-out because someone didn't tell me to think about a longer-term earn-out. And so when we were sold for the second time, that was nine months later, that sped up and it was just, it was over. I was like, oh, wow, you douchebags sold a day after I went out of the window. That wasn't designed, was it? Um, but, uh, yeah, it was. John: [00:11:27] Your model that you're talking about with no timeframe that looks a little bit more like what you would see from… It, it's a little bit on the unique side. I would say there's normally a defined timeframe just because there's, you know, kind of investment criteria that has to be made depending on who the buyer is. So your model's a little bit different. It feels a little bit more like, it looks a little bit more like it's a partnership a little bit more like kind of they're rolling footy. So it's not something I've never heard of, but it's certainly more unique in the market. Jason: [00:11:55] Yeah. Well, I mean, we look at it as we want it to be a win-win, you know, it's not, we don't want to… And, and the thing too is like, when we put the requirements on who we buy, a lot of people think oh, the market turned because of COVID, which it didn't, it actually went up. But there were thinking in the very beginning, oh, I'm going to take advantage of all these people that are losing and going down. And I'm like, we don't want to buy agencies that are going on the down projectory. We want them to be going up so that they can speed up our, you know, success. And then we can go do the things that we really want. John: [00:12:30] And if you buy somebody that's in a negative position or that's in a really, really desperate position, you're really not getting, you're truly not getting partnership from that owner. Realistically, that owner is looking to cash out, looking to leave. It's not… Yeah. And it's just not a good situation for them either. So it's hard to make those situations work. Jason: [00:12:52] Yeah. I mean, they're just, they're an anchor dragging the whole boat down and, uh, I'd just cut the line and be like, you can sync. For the agency side. Now, if you're sinking, you can come to us and we can help you out on the consulting and you can be around amazing agency owners. But, um, let me ask you this. What is the biggest multiple you've seen for an agency? John: [00:13:18] That's hard to say… Jason: [00:13:20] Just on evaluation and, and I'll preface this because like you talk about different deal structures. Most people that are listening, if you think the valuation is the amount of cash you're getting, you should think again, that's just the valuation. You'll get maybe some cash. Like, you know, a lot of times what we'll do at Republics, we'll do 50% cash sometimes a little bit more. But it depends on situations, but there's a lot of situations I've seen where people are like no cash upfront. We'll give you the valuation, whatever you want. But that doesn't mean anything. John: [00:13:54] So the way that buyers generally approach valuation is ultimately it's gotta be a win-win for the buyer as well. Buyers are not in the business of giving away money just for the sake of giving away money. So there has to be some type of alignment between the buyer and the seller. If you take a look at some of the publicly traded holding companies, as an example, when they buy firms, they typically would want those deals to be a creative to them. Meaning that when that profitability comes over to their publicly traded stock, they get more value for it than they paid for. What that generally means is that they should be buying companies at some type of discount of multiple to what they're trading at in the market. So if you've got a publicly-traded marketing holding company and is trading at 14 times earnings or 15 times earnings, or, you know, something of that nature, most likely they're not going to be buying firms for, or be willing to buy firms for that multiple, because it's basically, you know, they're taking $2 over here and then moving $2 over there. It doesn't really add any value for them. So they'll probably buy at a significant discount to that. So, If you've got a buyer, who's, who's a publicly-traded company and they're trading at 15 times, you probably, you should probably should expect your valuation potentially depending on the specifics of your company to be somewhat of a discount from that, either a high single-digit or low double-digit, depending on the buyer and depending on the circumstances. Jason: [00:15:22] Well, this has all been amazing, John, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit agencies listening? John: [00:15:29] I think that the, the only other thing that I would say that is relatively unique about this particular time period, that we're having this conversation in right now, post-COVID and just kind of the economic factors that they are. It's a very active market right now. Uh, there's a lot of companies that are for demographic reasons you have a lot of owners who are thinking of potentially selling now. You have really, really low-interest rates. So cash is really, really easy to come by. A lot of companies have excess working capital on their balance sheets because of because you know, of either PPP loans or because of, you know, some of the financial stimulus that's been in the market and they've actually done pretty well through that period. You potentially have capital gains tax rates going to increase in some point in the relatively near future. And so it's a fairly active market right now. Um, and if someone's thinking about potentially selling, I would recommend to them that they give it very serious consideration because there's a lot of people looking for companies right now. There's a lot of… the landscape is changing and people are looking for different capabilities than they were a few years ago as you mentioned earlier, is that some companies did really well during COVID. And, um, so it's just a very dynamic market right now, so if anybody's thinking of selling in the next couple of years, I would say that they should probably take some of those factors into consideration. And effectively, uh, not necessarily sell sooner than they want to, but, um, it's, it's definitely a time to be thinking about that if you're, if you're planning on selling in the next three to five years. Jason: [00:16:59] Awesome. What's a website people can go and check you out? John: [00:17:02] Uh, our website is Claire, claireadvisors.com. So we're at Clair Advisors and you can, uh, you can find us there any time. Jason: [00:17:10] Awesome. Well, thanks so much, John, for coming on the show. And if you guys are interested in selling your agency and maybe, you know, you want to get my advice, or maybe you want us to even buy you, I want you to go to jasonswenk.com/sellagency and just a quick little form. And then if we think, uh, we can help you out or position you to a certain buyer, uh we'll we'll help you with that. So go to jasonswenk.com/sellagency. And until next time have a Swenk day.

Tell Em Steve-Dave
#504: Gotcha!

Tell Em Steve-Dave

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 2022 68:12


Dr. J joins the boys for a surprise end-of-the-year ep.

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
How Brie Schmidt Grew her Real Estate Portfolio by 50 units in 1 year | EP85

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 29, 2021 44:07


Brie Schmidt acquired her First Investment Property in 2011 and left the Corporate World in 2014 when she became a Full Time Real Estate Investor. Brie is the Managing Broker of Second City Real Estate, a Full Service Brokerage Working with new Investors and Seasoned Investors Looking to Expand their Knowledge of the Industry and their Portfolio. In this episode we talked about: Brie's First Steps in Real Estate Switching to Real Estate on a full-time basis 2021 Portfolio Review Capital Deployment The Difference Between Chicago and Milwaukee Property The Active Investment Strategy  Property Management 1031 Exchanges Regulatory Environment from the Landlord-Tenant Prospective Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: http://www.secondcity-re.com/agent/brie/ Transcriptions: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Hey, my name is Jesper galley and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. We have a special guest today that is Brie Schmidt. Brie acquired her first investment property in 2011 and left the corporate world in 2014.   When she became a full-time real estate investor is the managing broker of second city real estate, a full service brokerage working with new investors and seasoned investors, looking to expand their knowledge of the industry and their portfolio. I had the special pleasure of being on a panel with Bree in new Orleans at the bigger pockets conference. Bree, how are you doing I'm   Brie (54s): Dan. Great. Thanks. How are you?   Jesse (56s): I'm doing fantastic. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show. I thought just, you know, we were talking before the show. I think it would be really interesting to have you on because we talked a lot, but you know, across that panel and I think it would be a treat for listeners to talk not just about multiple larger units when it comes to multi residential, but to talk about the mid and lower size units or smaller size units and kind of approach it from the perspective of the kind of unique markets that you're in. So maybe to kick us off, why don't you give us a little bit of a, of a background for yourself, for listeners, how you got into real estate?   Brie (1m 35s): So I always say I used to be a normal person. I used to have like a normal job and normal, you know, grind go to the grind kind of goals in life. So I used to work in advertising sales. I used to work in business development and advertising sales never really saw myself doing anything different. You know, it was really had aspirations of being a female CEO one day. So I live in the Chicago market, which we were talking about before show is a somewhat unique market, as far as housing stock.   There's very few cities in this country that have a large portion of two to four unit multi-units. So depending on the neighborhood in Chicago, it can be between 50 and 70% of our housing stock is two to four unit properties. And they're generally about a hundred thousand dollars, less than a single family home. So at the time I was think I was just getting engaged and my fiance and I were talking about, and you're like, what are our life plans? They're like, well, we want to, we want to buy a single family house, but like, we don't need, we don't need that sort of space right now.   So that was our plan was we bought a three unit property. We did a quote-unquote house hack, you know, standard FHA loan. And our plan was, you know, at some point we would need more space. We could, you know, take out a wall, move a staircase. Now we took up two of the three floors. And then at some other point we'll need the other space. We'll just, you know, get and take out a wall and move a staircase. And we'll eventually just take this house and convert it to a single family home. So that was our hundred, like end all be all goal with real estate investing. About three months after we bought the property, my father was diagnosed with a very aggressive form of cancer and he passed away a few months later.   And the thing is the day before he was supposed to retire is when he passed away and we already planned his retirement party and it now became his wake. And it really resonated with me as, because I would just think back of all the things my dad would say, like, when I retire, I'm going to go do this. When I retire, we're going to go to Thailand. You know, I'll retire after you get married or I'll retire when your brother had finished his PhD. And like, he always had all these dreams and goals that he never got to see because he never took action on it.   So here I am, 28 years old, you know, working 60 hours a week, traveling all over the country for somewhere else. And I'm like, this sucks. You know, like this is a terrible life. I've got, you know, 30 plus years till retirement. And I'm going to be in the same position as my dad. You know, I've always wanted to go to Italy. I've always wanted to go do these things and I've done nothing with them because I was too focused on work. So it really changed my perspective on life and decided to reorientate things.   And that's how I got into real estate investing. So you'll, you'll figure out, you know, I just go, I'm a bull in a China shop kind of person. So within the, we bought our first property in 2011, we bought another property in 2012. We did it again in 2013, that 2013 property was a renovation property. We bought like a 1960s house and completely renovated it, you know, pulled cash out. And that is when I found a website called BiggerPockets, which I'm sure you know about.   And it completely changed everything that I was doing. I had never talked with another investor. I had never read a book about investing. I was just kinda, you know, winging it. And it opened up this whole new world of possibilities. So we were sitting on a decent chunk of cash and now I had all these possibilities in front of me and opportunities to learn. So we went full forward ahead. So we looked at other markets to invest in while I love, love, love Chicago.   It's not really a cashflow based market. It's more of a balanced, you know, similar, not as expensive as California, but you know, similar sort of market, New York as well. You're just not going to be retiring off cashflow here. So I, I took some time. I looked at Milwaukee, Kansas city, Indianapolis spent some time in those markets, learning those markets and we decided to invest in Milwaukee. So for you guys that don't know it's about an hour and a half drive, so it's a, you know, easily commutable distance.   So in, let's see, 2015, we bought 10 properties and then 2016, I bought another eight. And then I had partners. I worked with that. I bought another 10 in 2016. So we went quite all in and fast growth trajectory on our acquisitions in those markets. So that's kind of my, and then I started a brokerage firm here in Chicago that was started in 2014. We are the largest boutique brokerage firm working with investors in the Chicago and market. And then I also do the Midwest real estate networking conference where the largest conference in the Midwest for real estate investors.   So everything, when I say I used to be a normal person with normal hobbies, that's what I mean. Like I used to be able to small talk and chit chat about sports or shopping. And now my whole life has become real estate, which is fantastic, but it's all I want to talk about. Cause it's all that meal. It's fun for me. So it was taken over my life in a very, very good way.   Jesse (6m 56s): Yeah. Well the, the energy didn't go out and I noticed when we were, we were at the conference and it's, that's great to hear it. When, when you made that transition, I'm always curious because it's not a dissimilar story where we have guests on that had a quote unquote, normal life or normal job, normal, whatever. And then they move into real estate investing. What, at what point in that kind of, you know, 20 11, 20 12 was the point where you said, okay, let's go in full time and, you know, get, you know, not, not continue to pursue the, the day job.   Brie (7m 26s): So it wasn't like a, it wasn't a pre-planned conscious decision. To be honest, the plan always was I was making great, you know, I had a great salary. I actually loved what I did. I had spent nine years building up my career. I did, it was not something that I wanted to walk away from. So the plan was never for me to leave my job and do real estate full time. Real estate was always going to be a hobby on the side. So it was when we were looking at doing our first set of properties in Milwaukee, that I started to realize like one day it was like, well, I always wanted to make sure that my real estate investing never got in the way of my day job.   And then one day woke up and realized that my day job was getting in the way of my real estate investing show. But I'll tell you this story. I used to travel a lot for work. And we were at the airport, it was a 6:00 AM flight to Atlanta. So it was like five 15 in the morning. I'm staying at the airport with my boss who just had a baby. She was like, I don't know, baby was like four months old. So we were flying down to Atlanta and then we had to get a car and rent a car to go to Columbus, Georgia, which was like a two hour drive for a two hour meeting.   And then drive back to Atlanta to take an airport plane ride home because she had to get home. She had a newborn and I remember sitting in the airport with her at like five 15 in the morning. It's like the butt crack of Dawn. And I get a travel alert on my phone. Like, so when it comes to travel, like Istanbul has been like my number one bucket list place. And there was a flight alert. It was like 400 bucks to go to Istanbul and I'm staring at us and I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to go to Istanbul. And she's like, what one? I'm like, I don't know, there's 400 bucks. Like I'm going to go whatever. And she started going through, like, this was April.   She starts going through my calendar while you can't go this month. Cause you've got this and then you've got this. And then like at the end, she's like by October, like, yeah, you can take a long weekend. And I was like, screw this. Like, this is not the life that I want. Like if I want to go to Istanbul, I want to go to Istanbul. So between it was around the same time that we were mid acquisition with our properties. Like I said, we were buying five properties. I remember calling my commercial lender and being like, Hey, if I quit my job, is that going to affect my ability to acquire more properties?   And as soon as you said, no, I was like, great. I'm giving my notice. And that was it. So it was like a two week, like, Hey, is this gonna, are we going to completely blow ourselves up by doing this? Or no? And the answer was no. So we just did it. I just did it.   Jesse (9m 51s): Yeah. I feel like the, there is this point where people, especially like yourself that have a job that has a good income. There's a beginning stage when you're investing where it is an asset. Obviously the W2 income, T4 in Canada, where, you know, lenders are looking at that. But you do get to a certain point where the assets are become more important than you as the individual. Did you experience?   Brie (10m 14s): Yeah, exactly. But if it wasn't, we were already past the point of doing residential loans. We were already well into like the commercial loan process and that was pretty much what we would be doing moving forward. So as if you don't know, as a us and Canada might be different, you know, those are two very different processes. So it was important for me to know that the commercial under that we were working with, I said, I've done, you know, 23 loans with him. You know, they, they were very strong as far as like backing me personally and financially, as long as he was okay with it, I was ready to go.   So I said like, this was probably mid April. I left my job at, and by the end of June, I was, I quit and done diminish doing real estate full-time ever since.   Jesse (10m 60s): Right on. So what take us up to 2021? What, what does the portfolio look like?   Brie (11m 5s): It's less so, yeah, I've actually sold, I didn't sell anything in 2020, but 20 18, 20 19. I sold some properties about half of my portfolio. So this is also a very interesting story. I was at a conference, very similar, like the bigger pockets conference we were at new Orleans. And I remember the first session, the first morning was an economist. I was actually in Philly with Dave Vanhorn's conference. So this economist is on stage. And he's saying a lot of big words. I don't know, you know, yield curves.   And I don't know, I'm writing things down. Like I should Google that later. So at the end of the conference, the, there was a charity event and the economist had had was the auction off three hours of his time. As for this charity fundraiser. I'm like, this is a perfect opportunity for me to learn, right. What he's talking about. Because while I understand like real estate economics, and while I understand the market economics that I'm in personally, I don't understand on a national or global level, right? How all these other things that are going on are going to affect my market.   That's why I wanted to learn. So I bought his time as part of the auction. And one of the things he did was he wanted to go through my entire portfolio with me five years back, right. Looking at my cashflow, my projections, something that I hadn't done. Like every year I would view my portfolio, right? Like we all do, but I never really like went back and looked at it from a high-level five-year perspective. And he put on all these different calculations and I don't even, I still don't even understand half of them that he did for me. But one of the things that we looked at is what was my three-year average cashflow and my five-year average cashflow, what would I get if I sold the property less than the fees and how does that, that profit relate to annual cashflow?   And I realized quite quickly there was some properties that like, there was just always something, right. There was always something going on with these properties. At the end of the day, if I sold the property, I will be getting like 15 years cashflow up front. I'm like, well, that makes stupid for me to keep these properties. So that has become for the last three years when I'm part of my process is every year I not only review my pre like in my, or what we did and what our numbers were this year.   I also look at my three-year, my five-year. And then since acquisition numbers and reevaluate my portfolio every year, I hire a local realtor in Milwaukee, even though I'm licensed there, I don't, I'm not super active there to do a CMA on my properties. And I rebalance things and I re reallocate things and see, Hey, is this the right? Is it keeping this property, the right thing to do? Or at what point does it make sense for me to sell? So that's, that was a learning experience I took from a med economist. Yeah.   Jesse (13m 54s): Yeah. And it's sometimes it's like, you get that second opinion or you just to get something that, not that you weren't accountable, but kind of high level taking a look at your portfolio. I found a very similar thing happened with me earlier in my career, where there was very similar to you just cap X that would happen. So, so technically your P and L looks good. It looks okay. But really at the end of the day, your cashflow statement is getting hit with these large expenses. And, you know, 1960 would have been a newer pro property. Like one of the first properties we bought was in the early 19 hundreds.   So, you know, stone foundation, knob and tube. And what I was finding was that there were particular properties that were just these cash, like just pits, because you'd just be dumping in. And, you know, even if you average out capital expenditures, if you pick properties that have, you know, a lot of maintenance, you really gotta be careful about how you're smoothing that out over the, the time that you hold. And, you know, sometimes there's an inflection point, whether that's five years in seven years in it's, like you said, it just makes so much more sense to sell it and redeploy somewhere else.   Brie (14m 56s): Absolutely. Yeah. It was a very interesting exercise for me because I always just looked at things. I said, like, I looked at things on an annual basis. I never went back and looked at things from the beginning or the last couple of years and was like, wow, you know, this property is not produce thing. Right. And since I bought it, the values have gone up, like I would make, I had one property. I was going to make like 33 years cashflow I'm like done sell it now. So it's become an interesting exercise.   Jesse (15m 27s): So I want to ask the, the question that so many investors are asking today is w we see it from sellers, but just in general, that number one, you know, where do you, if you do sell a property, where do you even deploy capital? Because the market is so competitive right now, I'm curious, was Chicago, Milwaukee, was this something where you did sell properties in Chicago and then Milwaukee kind of looked like a, a place where you deployed or were you guys doing it at the same time? How did that, how did those two locations come about?   Brie (15m 57s): Yeah. So everything in Chicago, we acquired from 2011 to 2013, and we have not sold any of those properties. Everything in Milwaukee was pretty much 2014 to 2016, and we've sold about half of those properties. And so like, our portfolio was about 31 properties before we started selling anything off. And our newest property was built in 1910. So when you talk about old, like that's just the market, you know, like these, these were older 1890s, 19 hundreds, 19 times are when the properties were generally built.   Jesse (16m 34s): So sorry, the, the property, like the, the move to actually continue investing. When you deploy that capital, wha what are their active investments that you wanted to put them in? Was it, was it the strategy to put it into the properties that you currently have? How did you deal with that once you had that windfall?   Brie (16m 51s): I'll let you know when I figure that out, it's been terrible.   Jesse (16m 56s): Well, we were just talking about this before the show. They're just talking about the inventory issue in all of north America.   Brie (17m 3s): Yeah. I think I'm like, I, this, you know, this may or may not be the right decision, but I really I've gotten this far in my investing career by trusting my gut and nothing. Nothing has been interesting to me since, you know, I've, I've looked at some like multi-family investments, but very few actually piqued my interest, mobile home as well. It's like, I'm dabbling into that stuff, but nothing that's been like, Hey, this, like the doors have opened, I see the light.   This is the path forward. So really put, put the cash in the market and let it sit until I decide what to do with it.   Jesse (17m 43s): Yeah. Fair enough. So, can we talk a little bit, like I said, at the outset, I think investors would get a lot from this, you know, two to five unit world that you live in, especially in these areas. Can you talk a little bit about why an investor would go into say a three, a triplex or a five unit as opposed to 25 30, even if they have the capital to do both   Brie (18m 4s): Same things like for us? Like, so when we, when we went into the Milwaukee market, we bought 18 properties in nine months, 67 units. It was, so we obviously had the capital to buy one big building if we wanted, but chose to do smaller buildings and said for a lot of different reasons, a, like we just talked about, you know, if some of the properties are underperforming, I could sell the ones that are underperforming and keep the ones that are performing without having to sell the entire property as a whole.   So that was part of the reason. And like I said, all of our properties are within like about a mile and a half radius. So it's not completely spread out. Like everything is within less than a 10 minute drive from each other. But one of the main reasons was the properties are like, obviously residential properties are valued differently right. Than commercial. So when I was looking at the, the cap rates and the returns that I could get, they were much higher on two to four unit properties. And they were on these multis. So again, the markets, Chicago and Milwaukee, you know, got the neighborhoods can be between 50 and 70% housing stock, at least two to four unit properties.   They're everywhere you drive down the street. Right? And like half the block is a small apartment buildings. So there's a lot of different options of different inventory. But the thing was when it comes to the small Maltese, at least in my markets, they learned pay is water. Everything else is separate to the tenants, right? So there's no common meters for anything. When you look at insurance, right? I'm getting homeowners insurance that, or my business, you're getting commercial policies. Your insurance rates are much higher than mine.   You generally pay corporate water. I pay residential water. You know, there's, there's like my taxes right. Are different than your taxes. So when I was looking at, you know, up to about, I would say about 20 units that evens out, because when you think about it, if you've got a 15 unit right next to my three unit, and at the same size, same condition, you know, two bedroom apartment, we're getting the same rent, right? Your 15 unit does not offer the amenities like the pool, the, you know, the doorman to increase runs, right? So we're getting the same sort of rent, but your expense ratios are much higher than mine.   So it came out, like I said, once you got to about 20 units, then your expenses ended up being closer to what my expenses were. And then the cap rates even doubt, but like anything on you, it's like Tanya properties. And we see this all the time in Chicago. Cause we get a lot of investors that come to us and say, Hey, you know, we want to get into like these, you know, small midsize. Multi-families like, great, I'll start running some numbers for you, but taking a consideration. I want to show you something else. And I'll show them side by side. Like here's, you know, here's 10 properties that, that are like between 10 and 30 units.   And here's, you know, 10 properties that are two to four unit properties. The cap rate is always higher. So the risk though, is that if the market, the real estate market changes, right, you're subject to comps, not at a Y in the residential world, but financing is also easier as well. We don't have, you know, you can get 30 year fixed on a two to four unit property. You're not getting a five or seven year arm.   Jesse (21m 14s): And in terms of the investors that you typically work with, or even yourself is for the most part, the strategy buy and hold with, with the size   Brie (21m 22s): Of units.   Jesse (21m 25s): And one of the things, you know, you'll hear people say, even at the 20 unit size, in terms of property management, you know, whether, you know, there, you have the economies of scale, how do you handle that?   Brie (21m 36s): It's a great question. So I think it depends on your market, right, Chicago, where at least where I work is more of an AB type market. So even, you know, even clients that I've had that live out of state, a lot of them can self-manage or we have a company here locally. I think they've expanded to, if you go to the markets now called nest egg. So it's not that I got rent, they do all the cart, property management. So like I've been using them since my maintenance, since I was pregnant with my first kid. But like, I don't use them for, I do my own run collection.   I do my own lease ups, but I have that option if I want to, but there's no monthly fee. So, you know, I just had an issue this morning, a tenant reported an issue, you know, it goes through their system, they diagnose it, they take pictures, whatever it is. And then they send me emails saying like, Hey, we think this is going to cost this amount of dollars and this many hours, who do you want to schedule the repair, the tenant, you know, then they call my tenant and they work it out. It's like, I have not been in my properties for repairs and years. And if no one makes a repair requests, I don't get charged anything.   There's no monthly fees. So that sort of product works really well in the Chicago market where, you know, it's not, it's not very high touch, right. Milwaukee on the other hand is more of a C class market is absolutely high-touch. You definitely need full-time property management services, but that's what it was. We grew so quickly said when we came to our, so by the, as after two years, we were at just under a hundred units, that's enough to be important to a property manager.   And in the beginning I had my own in-house team. I tried doing it myself. And it was terrible because you can't have one person. Right. It's what I learned. One of the learning lessons I had, you know, while the, the property manager that I chose was fantastic with my tenants. Right. He lived in the community, he actually owned some of the properties that I bought. My first properties were bought from him, you know, great relationship with the tenants, with service, with service workers, repairs, right. All that was handled, knew nothing about accounting, you know?   And like he would go to him and he'd go deposit like 10 grand in my bank account. And I'd be like, what's the spore? He's like, oh, you know, I've got the receipts in my pocket. I'm like, that's not. So I, like, I still had to do a large portion of the business. So one of the things, you know, property management is a terrible job. I would being a teacher or a property manager, like the two things I would never want to do in life.   But it takes to have a well-rounded property management team requires multiple skills, right. One person can not do it and do it well. So by outsourcing it, you're getting multiple people's positions and skillsets. So that was a life lesson that I learned. I thought I was smart by having my own in-house team. I could control things more. It was 20 times the work. It was terrible.   Jesse (24m 44s): Yeah. I find with property management, the, the companies that have been successful doing it, they, you really have to look at it as a full time full service business, and you need the personalities for that. And I think it was M zero Brian Berger, J Scott, we had on another bigger pockets contributors that I think w their, their point was 70, 75 unit pluses, where, you know, you can, you can afford to have your own super in the building. So like that, you know, even with the property management company, but also having that super in the building, you know, it is at that point where you can scale and you have a point of contact that's in addition to your property management company.   But I'm always curious, because I think, I think in the two to fives, it really is dependent on the market. Like when I got into real estate, I was in student residents. So a lot of them were like these boarding houses that had five tenants, or, you know, five students or eight students where those markets, yeah. You got some people shake the mouse a little, but you also have, what was nice is you actually have this little cottage industry of property management companies, at least back when I was in school that were local, that would manage, you know, houses.   And you had that ability to scale. And like you said, I think you've made a good point there, which I think oftentimes gets overlooked. It's that you're, you're still going to a property management company and still say, Hey, this is 80 units, or this is 40 units. It's just, they're spread out.   Brie (26m 11s): Yeah. It's one of the things I was at, like one of my biggest pieces of advice, when someone tells me, like, I want to invest in Milwaukee, Oregon, or cashflow market. Right. If your plan is to buy a small multi, and then like every year acquire another couple of units, you're going to sink, you know, it's, you're, you're not going to go well for you. So when I was buying our properties in Milwaukee, one of the things I did is after we sold the property, after we bought the property, I call the seller and ask them like, Hey, you know, deals done. Like what, any lessons you can teach me or things I can learn.   The best majority of them were like out of state investors who that was their problem. They only had one or two properties. I remember this one property we bought, we bought it December 1st. The guy told me, he's like, you know, the top unit has been vacant for like three months. We've dropped rent. Like I just can't do it anymore. I'm like, really? Because we bought it, we bought it on a Wednesday. And my property manager posted that night. We had like five showings this week on it. We got it rented out. It's like the property manager can make or break. Absolutely you return. And if you're only, if you've got like three properties or, you know, 10 units with one property manager, you aren't a priority.   The end of the day, I have a hundred units and you have ton. And we both have a vacancy. Gus, who's the priority. It's me. You know, and I don't do it very often, but whenever I have to, if I call my property manager and say, Hey, I need you to stop what you're doing right now and handle this. You better believe they're going to do it. Right. So that's where scale becomes incredibly important.   Jesse (27m 42s): Yeah. And it's nice that there are kind of companies like you mentioned, or even, even locally here where the technology is getting better, where you can actually have, you know, one off properties here and there. I know, not true for Chicago. I know Toronto, we have a huge condo market. Like it basically is our purpose built market. Rental markets are extended, but you know, it's challenging when you only have a few one-offs. Where are you? What do you, what did you think, would you say is the biggest difference between the Chicago and Milwaukee market   Brie (28m 14s): Price point? Number one, you know, Chicago is much more expensive, but again, like each market, whether it be Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Kansas city, they all have different, you know, ABC markets. So it just so happens that I got my start in investing in Chicago, which was more of a lead type market. I, my cashflow play is Milwaukee, which is the, I invest in a C class area. You know, I've looked at investing in a, Milwaukee's a B class areas.   And they're very similar returns where I get in Chicago for my air AB class areas here. So it just depends on what your strategy is, you know, at the end of the day. So part of that economist evaluation was also taking into effect or taking into account what my property values were. Right. And what if I were to sell everything, what I would would be at again, like my, my cashflow in Milwaukee per dollar spent is like almost triple what it is in Chicago.   So the end of the day, like, I always assumed like my, my money came from Milwaukee, right? Like it pays my bills at the end of the day. It did it. When you, when you throw in the appreciation I got from Chicago, like that's where I made my money. So I was looking at it again. There's two different strategies. At least I have two different strategies. Chicago is my wealth building. Right. My, my tenants call me once a year. You know, like they're generally very easy. They stay for a few years. It's not a high touch market.   You know, my property is just, I sit and maintain. Right. And then I'll get my money when I sell Milwaukee. On the other hand is the cashflow based market. That's where I bring in my, my monthly paycheck. We'll call it, you know, two totally different strategies. I like having the balance personally, but there's no right or wrong answer. There's no, you know, this is the best option I like having both.   Jesse (30m 12s): Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. I'm curious. The something that is unavailable to us connects is the 10 31 exchange in the states, the differing of taxes into a likened kind asset for, for any of the listeners that haven't heard us banter about it before, is it, is it applicable to investment properties that are purely residential? Can you use it for you can use it for both. Okay.   Brie (30m 37s): We do again, we do, we do a few times a year, 10 31 exchanges within our brokerage side of the business, but it sucks. I just had one, the, oh, this is terrible situation, terrible. Like, whoa. It was me. The guy sold the million dollar properties, but he was selling, he was selling a property in California, wanted to parlay that funds into Chicago. This was just in like October where our market started to get really slow. Inventory was terrible. He was from the time he was selling, he was then, you know, you've got 45 days and two weeks he was leaving for Germany for a month.   So he's like, listen, you know, we gotta find this property in two weeks. And then we're in Germany. You know, we've got things to do. And it just so happened. Like the day after closing, he called me, like, we actually need to leave for Germany tomorrow. So they were in Germany the whole time. And I was trying to find them a property. But like when we were looking, you know, between like one and 1.5 million, which for a two to four unit property is completely adequate budget for Chicago. We couldn't find anything for him. And he ended up taking the cap, gain tech, but at the end of the day, that's better than buying a bad investment.   Right. So, but it was a, it was a very stressful experience because I'd never met him in person. He was never going to be able to fly to Chicago and see the property. And I had 45 days to put something on a contract for him and try to guess what he wanted and what he would like, you know, like, so it was all like videos and it was just, it's just, it is what it is, but   Jesse (32m 10s): You know, it's our world,   Brie (32m 12s): But is her world   Jesse (32m 14s): Sabrina. I want to talk, but just one more thing before we get to some of the questions we ask every guest, I am just mindful of the time here. We could probably do a, another 45 minutes on just the second half of this story. But before we get there, I'm curious to know the regulatory environment from the landlord tenant board perspective. I have a, you know, we talked a little bit about this before. I have a suspicion that it's very similar to our market, very tenant friendly. How does that compare to Milwaukee?   You know, what's your experience been?   Brie (32m 48s): You could, I don't think you can find two different while California. You can't really find two different markets. And again, they're only an hour and a half drive from each other. So both offers similar returns. I would say, as far as the investment market, but yeah, Chicago has one of the strictest landlord-tenant ordinances in the country. I still invest here. You know, we've got plenty of clients that still invest here. It's really, to me, the landlord tenant ordinance is not, it's not super strict, but you have to know the rules, right. And that's where people get in trouble.   If they don't know the rules, everything is quite reasonable. Right. If you, you know, a general repair, you have 14 days to correct it. That's not an unreasonable request when it comes to like heat, hot water, electricity, like, you know, those sorts of things, you have 48 hours to correct. You know, got not in a reasonable request. It, but our eviction process is beyond terrible. I just had to summer my first eviction ever in Chicago, where, you know, I gave a ton of in 50 days and always I was not renewing his lease.   He started, he understood it. I rented out his unit. Like he let me do showings. And then like the week before it was like, I've got nowhere to go. I'm not leaving. Like, well, that's not really an option. Like I have someone moving in in like five days. So it was what we would consider a hold over tonight, which is still allowed to evict, even though we had the memorandum here, but it took, you know, two months before we even got him served through our court process. Milwaukee on the other hand is very landlord friendly.   I can get, let's see, when I give someone a five day notice the next day I can go and file in court. Typically I get a court date within seven to 10 days. And you go, when you show up to court, they pretty much ask you one question, which is, can you prove the rent you owe to this landlord is not what they say. And they'll start, you know, well, they were a shit landlord and all that. I don't care. She says, you owe this, do you have proof otherwise? And they're like, no, and they'll start ranting. And they're like, okay.   So what do you want to do? They'll go to me like that is, that is the only piece of information that they want to know. Right? They don't, they don't care about the other things. One of the other great things about Milwaukee's market as far as evictions is which we use. It's a tool we use quite often is they have a payment plan process within the court system. So again, a lot of times, you know, they fall behind, right? And they're, they're communicating. It's not like we want to evict them so we can work out a payment plan.   It's a court ordered payment plan. And as soon as they miss one payment, I just go straight to the court, show them document, signed an affidavit, boom. Sheriff comes. So it just there's no, I don't have to go back to court and we don't have to go back to, you know, like starting all of the process over again. It just picks up where we left off. If I were to do a normal eviction. So also a really win-win situation. Right? If they say that they can make these payments and they can get caught up, right. And they do that, then they don't get evicted. But if they fall behind, we have the option of just picking things up and not starting over again.   Milwaukee also has some really great rental assistance programs for tenants that do fall behind as well versus like Chicago. We, you know, we had a ton of apply for rental assistance back in June. I just got it now in December, you know? And luckily if I wasn't so accommodating, right. You know, it was five months of background. Like that's a lot of rent to, to go back, but Milwaukee just moves faster and they are a lot more, there's a lot more options within that market.   Port options or rental assistance options.   Jesse (36m 36s): Does Chicago have rent control?   Brie (36m 38s): No. Okay. Hey.   Jesse (36m 41s): Yeah. The gas. Yeah. W I would have been 50 50 on that. I know it's tenant friendly, but I don't, I didn't know if they went that far.   Brie (36m 52s): So luckily for us, it is part of our state constitution. And once you get out of the state or city of Chicago, it is a very, very red state. So to, to have rent control in Chicago, you have to have this state constitution amended and there's way too many conservatives to allow that to happen. So every year it happened, like every year someone brings it up, right. And every year it goes to the process and every year everyone freaks out about it. And every year it gets stopped quite quickly.   But if it wasn't, if it was up to the actual like cities or counties, we would absolutely have rent control here. But luckily it's on a state level.   Jesse (37m 35s): Yeah. I think if I think Jersey, what is a Jersey, California, New York Mahershala, Washington. I think, I think we're the opposite. If you can find a, like a pretty sure across country, we have some form of rent stabilization. But the big thing for us is that is when we have new tenants, we mark the mark to market the rents. So you kind of reset at market levels, but it's a bit of a different animal. That's great. I, I want to talk or let listeners know where they can go and kind of reach out to you. But before we get there, we've got four questions.   We ask every guest. So if you're ready, I'll, I'll send them over to ya. I agree with something, at least one thing that you know, now in your career, you wish you knew when you first started out,   Brie (38m 17s): Oh gosh, just one thing I can do a whole podcast and all the things, You know, again, I, I'm a big believer in trusting your intuition, right. And figuring out what works for you, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. So that takes time. That takes your own learning lessons. But as long as, like you said, I've made obvious mistakes. As long as I was confident in my decision, right. I have no one to blame, but myself and that makes me sleep at night, knowing that like, Hey, this is, this is just a bump in the path and it's going to be a learning lesson down the road.   So my advice would be, you know, really focusing on what you're doing, what your goals are, what your needs are, right. Where, where you can grow personally and then create your own path.   Jesse (39m 10s): Gotcha. Okay. In terms of, if one thing or a few things you could say to new investors, people getting into our industry regarding mentorship, what would that be?   Brie (39m 24s): I'm not a fan of a mentorship thing. You know, I don't think it's a gun. Your mentorship to me is you're, you're learning from someone, but you're trying to replicate what they're doing. Right. And that's not always, right. So I'd like, I get all the time, like, Hey, what, what neighborhoods do you buy in? Cause I want to buy there. I'm like, well, I have haven't I have a Nissan Pathfinder. Do you want to buy my car? Because I have that car. Like, you know, that doesn't mean like what I have my needs and goals are. So it was back to the first thing of, you know, mentorship, you know, isn't, shouldn't be a immediate goal for someone, I think, you know, utilizing sites like bigger pockets, bigger pockets, right?   Learning about your market, listening to podcasts, right? Take a little bit of information from everything that you're hearing and learning and figuring out what works best for you. That's what you need. And then once you're ready, right. Finding a good team, a good agent, right. A good brokerage, good, you know, lenders, lawyers, whatever that will help support you and what your goals are. But you should be the one dictating what your path is. Not someone else telling you what to do.   Jesse (40m 32s): Fair enough. What's a resource or book that you find yourself constantly recommending.   Brie (40m 37s): Oh, getting things done. I love that book. It has completely changed. Like you guys, like not only do I not want a landlord, but I own a brokerage firm. I also plan an event for real estate investors. I'm nine months pregnant and I've got a two year old right there. You know, there's, there's a lot of different things that come at me at different times through the day with so many different moving parts. Right. So having like an organizational prioritizing to do list right.   To, to be effective has really important. So I read the book, maybe I was actually too busy to read the book. So I bought the cliff notes to be perfectly honest, about five years ago. And I went from working, you know, 60 hours a week in my business to probably working 30. I, you know, cut out all the nonsense and really transformed my work-life balance because of that book. Yeah.   Jesse (41m 36s): And I think they've updated. We've had a guest before recommend this and I think they've updated some of the, the concepts. Cause I, I it's, it's like the book for, for like task management and organization. So I think it w I can't remember what the release date, but a lot has changed technologically, but I still love the, how they systematize everything in that book.   Brie (41m 57s): I am so full though. I have to write everything down. Like   Jesse (42m 1s): I remember like the bin you'd have to move things from the bin. Yeah.   Brie (42m 5s): I have to like physically write things down and like physically cross things off of my paper. I can't do like a word, you know, or technology just doesn't work for me. I'm too old.   Jesse (42m 14s): So speaking of Pathfinders, our last question, first car making.   Brie (42m 19s): Oh, Ford Thunderbird. Terrible bomb. Yeah. I was at, it was my dad's car that I bought off him. Right. I'm a terrible driver. Do you understand this? No, I think it was a V6 or a V8, whatever. I crashed it so many times. I'm just a terrible driver. I still am a terrible driver. My husband drives pretty much. He will not, my husband will not let me drive a car if he's in it.   Jesse (42m 48s): I will say this though. It is, it was an upgrade back then from the four tourists, which, which I spent my childhood,   Brie (42m 55s): It was a beast of a car though. You know, I said, I ran over curbs and ran into walls with that card and like never scrape on me, you know, but yeah. Thank you so much for having me on the show.   Jesse (43m 9s): I really appreciate it. If anybody's, you know, in your local area or would like to just reach out to you where, where would be the best place to, to go   Brie (43m 17s): I'm on BiggerPockets almost every single day. Some messaging me on bigger pockets, Brie Schmidt, or you can check out my website. It's a second city spelled out dash R e.com.   Jesse (43m 30s): Okay. We'll send them there. My guest today has been breached brief. Thank you for being part of working   Brie (43m 36s): Capital. Thank you so much.   Jesse (43m 45s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse, for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five-star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Keys For Kids Ministries

Bible Reading: Genesis 3:1-6"Come here, little crab. I have something you'll like. Come on. Try it," Paxton coaxed softly. "A little closer now. That's right. Keep coming. Another nibble. Closercloser"There was a sudden splash in the water. "Gotcha!" shouted Grandpa. He held up the dip net. "This one is huge, Pax! Good job! Okay, toss that chicken wing back in and let's try to catch another."One of the things Paxton enjoyed most when he visited his grandparents in Florida was catching crabs for their annual seafood cookout. When he and Grandpa went crabbing, they didn't have to bother with hooks, sinkers, or even poles. All Paxton had to do was tie a piece of raw chicken on a long string and dangle it in the shallow waters of the river. When he felt a tug, he slowly pulled the bait toward him, inch by inch. The crab, nibbling the chicken, would follow it right up to the edge of the water. Then, in one swift motion, Grandpa would scoop the crab into the dip net."Here comes another one," said Paxton. "Crabs must be really dumb to ignore the string that's attached and get caught like this."Grandpa smiled as he scooped up the crab. "I'm not sure how intelligent crabs are, but we often do the same thing and get caught too.""We do?" Paxton looked up at Grandpa. "By following a piece of chicken? Not me!""You toss out chicken because it looks good to the crabs. And Satan tosses out all kinds of things that look good to us--like money, popularity, or having fun," Grandpa explained. "The things he uses are not necessarily wrong, but he coaxes us to use them in the wrong way--for our own selfish desires. It's as if he's saying, 'Try it.' And then, 'Just a little more.' If we're not careful, we get caught up in sin. What seems harmless at first can end in disaster.""Which is why we need to confess our sins to Jesus and then stop doing them," Paxton said. "We don't want to end up in hot water like these crabs will tonight!" Grandpa grinned. "That's right. We must turn from temptation because sin leads to consequences in our lives. There are always strings attached." -L. Gail RhodesHow About You?Do you realize how dangerous it is to sample sin--to try it even once? Don't make the same mistake Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Sin may seem harmless, but it has consequences. Don't get caught up in it. If you know Jesus, He's freed you from sin. You don't have to give in to it. Trust Him to forgive you when you do sin and to help you turn away from temptation.Today's Key Verse:The sins of the wicked will trap them. Those sins will be like ropes holding them back. (ERV) (Proverbs 5:22 )Today's Key Thought:It's dangerous to sample sin

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies
6 Layers of Shaping an Agency Culture That Wins More Clients

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 26, 2021 22:27


Want to build an amazing agency culture and brand? After running his own agency, Historic, for eight years and leading teams of creatives, Ted Vaughn took on the task of co-writing the book on all aspects of building your agency's brand and how leadership shapes its culture. Ted is on the show talking about how you can use culture to help further grow your agency. He covers the six parts of marquee culture established in his book, Culture Built My Brand, the biggest gap he's noticed in company culture, and how to align your principles and values to attract the right people. 3 Golden Nuggets Shaping culture to grow your agency. If you're an agency owner looking to create a brand and culture that can help grow your business, remember your leadership, the decisions that you make, the ways in which you operate all become more critical than technical expertise or unique ability. Your role as a leader determines how the culture works or if it becomes toxic. Ted explains one of the biggest gaps he's seen in company culture is leaders who fail to understand the reality of their power and do not build bridges over to the people they lead so that they can actually be given feedback on how to reshape their HR systems or their values. The six layers of marquee culture. In their book, Ted and his partner identify six layers of marquee culture. Your marquee culture is at your forefront. It is the thing that galvanizes and draws attention to your agency, attracts great people, and keeps great people. Each of these layers translates into behavior-shaping principles for the people who are a part of our organizations. These 6 are: principles, architecture, rituals, lore, vocabulary, and artifacts. The single most important layer is the first one. Ted and his team have found many times the values or ideas that hold an organization together are too vague or abstract. He talks about the way to transform them into behavior-shaping principles for the people who are a part of your team How the 6 layers interact. A lot of agencies might already have some of these layers in places but not in a way that actually transforms them into core values. This is because they haven't actually integrated them into their decision-making. For example, in the case of architecture, Ted believes HR systems and structures should not simply be healthy or unhealthy. They really need to be built in a way that furthers aspects of your brand value. For rituals, it needs to be organic experiences that energize your people, not just staff meetings. Remember these layers are permeable, they're not just independent ideas that operate independently from the others. Your principles should inform your vocabulary and rituals and so on. Sponsors and Resources Sharpspring: Today's episode is sponsored by Sharpspring, an all-in-one revenue growth platform that provides all of the marketing automation, CRM, & sales features you need to support your entire customer lifecycle. Partner with an affordable marketing automation provider that you can trust. Head over to sharpspring.com/smartagency to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio | Stitcher | Radio FM Shaping Agency Culture With the Six Layers that Build an Effective Brand {These transcripts have been auto-generated. While largely accurate, they may contain some errors.} Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk here and I have another amazing episode for you where we're going to talk about culture and how you can get the right people. Who do you need to bring in? How do you evaluate them? All that kind of good stuff, so you can grow your agency faster. And so let's go ahead and get into the episode. Hey, Ted. Welcome to the show. Gotcha with the water. Ted: [00:00:28] You did. That was so fast. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Huge fan, uh, really have been inspired by your work and your network. And, uh, just a real honor to be on the show. Jason: [00:00:40] Awesome. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what your agency actually does. Ted: [00:00:45] So I've spent most of my life leading in non-profit circles, leading teams of creatives. Um, started an agency with my business partner, Mark Miller about eight years ago, called Historic. We thought it would be just a cool idea to serve some of our niche clients. Bootstrapped it, and, uh, you know, eight years later, we're, uh, we're doing over a million dollars in business and have a staff and a brick and mortar. And we've learned a lot in the journey, both about who we are and about what makes us tick. And I think that's why we wrote a book and it's why I'm talking to you today. Jason: [00:01:19] Great. Let's talk about building a culture within your organization. You know, I look at it as everyone's building a culture… Matters of, are you building the culture that you actually want? Ted: [00:01:30] Yeah, I mean we... believe senior leaders are shaping culture as the most significant contribution to their organization. I mean, if you are leading an agency, the how of your leadership matters more than the unique skill that you bring to the table. Unless, it's a boutique lifestyle brand and literally you are an employee of one, but if you want to scale, if you want to grow, the single greatest question you have to wrestle with is the how of my leadership more than the what of my technical skill or talent. Jason: [00:02:05] So give us a little bit more about what's the difference between those. Ted: [00:02:09] Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, even for Mark and me, we each have really unique skill and technical ability that offers value that our agency still really needs. But as we've taken on staff and as we've grown and as we've had to empower our staff, the company culture that we shape and that we lead becomes our brand in ways our skill and talent alone could never fully embrace. Our brand, the touchpoints of our brand, our growth, and this will certainly be true if we go beyond, you know, our current, you know, one point, whatever million-dollar mark to 5 million… exponentially becomes the case. Then you go even further and it gets even more important. Your leadership, the decisions that you make, the ways in which you operate become more critical than your technical expertise or unique ability as a designer or as a strategist or as a PR person. Jason: [00:03:06] Now I've had people on to talk about culture from Zappos, who so many people modeled, you know, Tony Shay and all those guys did. So what are ways where agencies listening right now… How can you start shaping the culture in order to scale your agency faster? Ted: [00:03:26] Well, we've the book that we wrote, “Culture Built My Brand”. It was really written on the back of our learning. We have sweat a lot of blood made a ton of mistakes. And I think the idea for us in the book is, is a marquee culture and a marquee culture is like that marquee sign. It's that well-lit banner. That is the forefront. It is the thing that galvanizes and draws attention, attracts great people, keeps great people. So in the book, we talk about a marquee culture, having six layers or six dimensions. And the single most important is the first, which we call principles. What we find often in our, in our own agency it was true and the clients that we serve it's true. And I would assume for many of you listening it's true. We have these values or these ideas that hold us together that become our riverbanks or our guiding ideas. But they're so vague or abstract or unclear they don't actually translate into behavior shaping principles for the people who are a part of our organizations. And I would say probably one of the first places to start the first layer in our book on culture and brand is principles. Taking your values or recreating your values so that they're actionable, applicable culture-shaping principles that really give those who are a part of your team, clear behavioral guidelines, so that they know how to be on-brand, how to operate, how to make decisions in ways that will really further your brand in unique ways and not just have abstract ideas. Jason: [00:05:01] So one of our principles in our culture is really being resourceful. So give us an example of… all right, that's kind of the, the layer here. How do we take it further. Ted: [00:05:14] Yeah. I mean, we often will work with brands that have some version of innovation as their value, right? Maybe it's stated that way, or it's stated with a really sticky phrase. But then when you look at how people behave or you begin to ask questions around decision-making, or you look at how money is spent, you quickly realize that the organization's not structured in a way that actually takes the value of innovation seriously. It's because they haven't actually taken that value and then integrated it and baked it into decision-making in all sorts of different ways, which really is the second layer of our book and culture, which was architecture. We don't believe that HR systems and structures should simply be healthy or unhealthy. They really need to be built in a way that furthers aspects of your brand value. So if you articulate innovation, that should absolutely show up and shape how HR functions and how decision-making and power and governance take place in your organization. Jason: [00:06:16] So like with, you know, our organization being resourceful. Like how would you bake that in even more and kind of take it up a notch? Ted: [00:06:25] Well, I'm assuming that when you say resourceful, you're talking about resourcing others, right? Being a part of something larger than yourself? Jason: [00:06:32] No, I'm talking about being resourceful is like figuring out like, all right. You know, we normally do it this way, but we could do it another way. Or, oh man, I don't feel like we have enough resources, you know, just figuring out a better way to do things more efficiently. Ted: [00:06:51] Yeah. I mean, again, I think what's interesting is even, you know, I, from the outside of hearing that word immediately took it in a different direction. So I think one of the questions that I would have would be when you say resourceful, what are the specific behaviors or ways in which that value translates to how your people lead, behave, are asked to budget how they solve problems. You know, I think there'd be fantastic ways for you to approach problem-solving in more bootstrapped, organic lean ways where you create heroes or you reward people who approach problem-solving through resourcefully challenged opportunities versus just throwing money at problems or thinking everybody needs to have support staff or, um, but I mean, there could be so many different ways that that value shapes the brass tax of your agency. I think it'd be a fun conversation to figure out how you're doing it today. Jason: [00:07:45] Gotcha. And so what are the other layers now that we have the principal. And then I think the second was architecture, if I…? Ted: [00:07:50] Architecture. Yeah. So principles being the idea that you want your values to be actionable and really shape all sorts of practical aspects of your people's behavior. Architecture being the structures that support your people. We talk a lot about Frank Lloyd Wright and the architecture that he did intentionally around the environment he was in. Third layer would be rituals. We talk about the experiences that energize your people and the best rituals and organizations are those that are organic. Not just top-down staff retreats or all staff meetings, but those rituals, like we talk a lot about the pumpkin carving contest in the jet propulsion lab and NASA. The next layer would be lore, the sticky stories that shape us. There are some really fantastic ways you can shape story, do storytelling in ways that further your brand value that help provide differentiation to your brand. Next layer is vocabulary, having phrases, words, ideas. We talk a lot about Netflix and some of the great language that they have from “Sunshining” to, um, different terms that they use to shape their culture. And then the last layer would be artifacts, which are everything from clothes to your physical space, to brands that we've worked with that set up unique opportunities for people that have private space in a shared workspace. One brand that has a football field mini version of a football field in their environment because they have a value of leaving it all on the field, all sorts of ways that you can physically shape your brand value in your space. Jason: [00:09:34] Is your agency struggling to deliver real revenue growth results to your clients? You know, agency marketers can consolidate data and align marketing and sales teams goals to achieve real results for your agency and clients using revenue growth platforms. Sharp spring is an all-in-one platform built for agencies like yours to optimize digital marketing strategies with simple, powerful automation. Manage your entire funnel all in Sharpspring. Now for a limited time, my smart agency listeners will receive your first month free and half off onboarding with SharpSpring. Just visit sharpspring.com/smartagency to schedule your demo and grab this offer. That's sharpspring.com/smartagency. Very cool. So give us some more examples of each of the layers, just so people can start going oh, okay, cool. This is what we can actually do. Like once we form the principles, how can we build a better architecture and so on? Ted: [00:10:41] For sure. So these layers are somewhat, uh, permeable, right? They're not just independent ideas that operate independently from the others, right? Your, your principles should absolutely shape vocabulary. As a matter of fact, a lot of times in brands, we see those, those values, those principles show up in their vocabulary because they get phrased in ways that become really sticky and interesting and helpful. Uh, architecture is absolutely informed by your principles. The way that you conduct HR hiring, onboarding. Rituals, uh, those again, in the book, we talk a lot about rituals being organic. When you have people that love your brand, they will often create their own experiences of the brand. One practical example for us at our agency, we do staff camp, we do Christmas gatherings. We constantly ask our staff how they want to participate and engage and be a part of those experiences. And in the process we've gotten all sorts of rituals in our agency that have been organic from our people, but mark and I would have never dreamed of. From cool patches and stickers and badges that have been developed in previous years that continue on to this day to other activities and games and things that operate within our agency. And another great example is we had a member of our staff want to do a music club, right? That's a great example of a ritual. We were like a music club! Awesome. Why not? That's becomes such a significant part of our agency that any new staff person is given a Sonos speaker so that no matter where they are in the US they can be a part of music club, be on Spotify, be a part of this experience. It's a way that we want to honor that because it's become such an important ritual within our organization. And we have no formal authority over music club. It's just an organic thing that our people develop that's become a key part of their… I think they would say a key part of their positive, satisfactory experience of working with us. Jason: [00:12:45] So are rituals more kind of like experiences and then like architecture is more like systems and…? Ted: [00:12:51] A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, you think about architecture, right? Like no architect designs a home and simply says, well, it's safe, it's stable, the plumbing works. You're good. That's not an architect, right? An architect is very, very interested in the design and shape of that structure, matching its external and internal audience and environment needs. It's not just safe or not safe. There are so many other dimensions to architecture. We think HR, the systems that support your people. should be the same way. You know, a lot of agencies, when we were a young agency and even today we cannot comp like 52 or 72 and sunny, not 52, 72andSunny, or, you know, name the agency, right? That has fantastic compensation plans. But there are so many different ways that you can do comp. One for us, one of our architecture branded ideas at, at historic is travel pizza. What is travel pizza? Anytime somebody on our staff has to be gone overnight, we provide a $50 stipend for meals for their family. It can be Ubereats. It can be pizza, it can be whatever you want it to be. Travel pizzas become an unbelievable way that our people feel valued and their families feel valued because they get a cool night out whether it's out or it's brought in on us because their person that they care about is gone. Lots of other ways to do compensation, to structure, to architect compensation that deliver unique value through your agency. That go way beyond annual salary. Jason: [00:14:32] Yeah, I like that. Remind me, what's after ritual and let's talk about examples. Ted: [00:14:38] There's a lot. It can be complex. So the, the layers of culture, somewhat in a linear order would be principles, architecture, rituals, and then lore. Lore being those sticky stories, right? Every brand that we've a part of I've been on staff that has had those stories that echo through the hallways and often they're incredibly toxic. Jason: [00:15:01] So would that be like, like what a story…? This happened at our agency where we were sent these lounge chairs that were double-sided and they sent it like 10 of them from China in these boxes with all these packing popcorn. But when we opened the boxes up, we had so much packing popcorn. It literally went down a hallway. And so we were like, let's keep it. We'd literally kept it until we sold the office. There was a whole hallway of packing popcorn that you could run and jump and do flips in and lose articles of clothing. So is that like a lore? Ted: [00:15:39] Well, that sounds like an amazing ritual, but I would say the minute, the minute you cleaned up that popcorn, I believe that was probably an incredible story. A lore that is a positive example of how your agency describes its culture through story. And if I'm you, you know, Jason, I want that story to continue echoing through the halls. I want new staff to be told that story when they're onboard, because that says something about who we are, what we value, how we behave, that goes way beyond any HR manual or onboarding. That is a great example of lore. A great example of toxic lore would be when I got hired as a C-suite leader in a non-profit and the second day in I was told by one of my colleagues, you know, you're just a plane flight away from losing your job. And I was like, huh, tell me more. He's like, well, the person that you're replacing was hired when the CEO sat next to them on a plane and before the plane landed, they were hired on staff and a negotiated salary. So just remember if he sits next to somebody who does your job better than you, well… Now that story had existed for years in the hallways of this organization. I, dumb enough thought I'm going to ask the CEO about that. So I brought it to the CEO and said, hey, I heard this crazy story. Is that true? He's like, well, it's kind of true. Not really true. Who told you that story? I was like, well, this is where I heard it in multiple places, but, um… He's like, you heard it in multiple places? Like a lot of people told me the same story. Point being, that negative story, toxic story shaping this leader's culture had been told for years and he had never heard it. The idea here is the more senior you are in the brand that you lead, the more self diluted you probably are as well. The more people are saying things about you or about the brand that you don't know about just by nature of your power and position. It's incredible how often senior leaders and brands we serve are clueless about stuff multiple people on the ground talk about and say on the routine. Jason: [00:17:55] Oh, yeah, yeah. And one of the things just going back to that story that I'm thinking about now, is the only time we cleaned up that popcorn was to put all of that in my VP of operations sunroof in his car. And we filled up his whole car. So when he came out to his car and just literally went… Ted: [00:18:16] I mean, to me, that's the epilogue, that's the, like the story, the story lives on there's layers to the story, right? I mean, you know, I would say like, Jason, that's a great example of how a story could very well create a sticky idea, vocabulary, which is the next layer, and that sticky phrase becomes a principle that now… This is how these layers work together. Sometimes principles create stories that create rituals. Sometimes the way in which we have the principle or value shapes our architecture, which creates it, these layers work together. But the point is there's a reason why Southwest and Netflix and Zappos, and many of the brands we know and love and talk about in this book are as successful as they are. It's not a happenstance coincidence they hit the market at the right time. They were aligned intentionally from the inside out, right? We have a philosophy of brand that your brand is your culture, your story, your product, your experience, and your identity. Don't start with identity. Start with culture. Defining that from the inside out is always far more sustainable and effective and long lasting, and has far less drama than starting with identity. Jason: [00:19:36] I love that. Well, this has all been amazing, Ted, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience? Ted: [00:19:42] Well, you can't talk about company culture and brand and agency life without addressing power. I think maybe one of the tangential elements to this conversation today has been the dynamic of power. And I think anybody listening who's a leader or being led, understands that power is a thing. I would say that one of the biggest gaps that we experience in company culture are leaders, is leaders who fail to understand the reality of their power and build bridges over that power to the people they lead so that they can actually get the truth. They can actually be told that toxic lore, they can actually be given feedback on how to reshape their HR systems or their values. It's amazing how, again, self diluted senior leaders are because of the power gap and their failure to build a bridge over that power. I would just challenge all of your listeners, if you have power of any form, be aware of it and build a bridge over it for the purpose of shaping a healthy company culture. Jason: [00:20:49] I love it. What's the name of the book and where can they get that? Ted: [00:20:53] Yeah, the book is Culture Built my Brand. Originally we wanted to call it Culture Ate my Brand, but the publisher thought that was a little too, little too negative. So they scratched it out and we have built, you can get it at any bookseller near you from Amazon to Barnes and Noble to… They just started shipping. We had some shipping-related challenges as I'm sure everybody's experienced. Um, but, uh, you could also visit culturebuiltmybrand.com to get access to a whole suite of tools that I actually think as agency owners… You may or may not ever want to take culture seriously as a part of your service group as a brand, but I guarantee you, if you apply some of the thoughts and ideas we have either to your agency or to how you serve clients, it'll make you a better agency. So take advantage of these tools, CultureBuiltMyBrand.com and then our agency is just Historic Agency. Jason: [00:21:47] Awesome. Well, Ted, thanks so much for coming on the show. And if you guys enjoyed this episode, make sure you guys subscribe, make sure you like it, comment and share it with a friend. And, uh, if you guys want to be around other amazing agency owners, sharing what's working and being able to see the things that you might not be able to see. I'd love to invite all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind, just for experience agency owners that are trying to just grow faster, have a lot of fun and just build an amazing culture. So thanks so much. And until next time, have a Swenk day.

Move I'm Gay
93. Drinky Pig & Smokey Pig

Move I'm Gay

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 21, 2021 77:48


Franny & Brenda talk about farting in jars, Celine Dion's biopic, and probably say "Gotcha!" more than you would like to hear

Kings of King of Queens
MAYBE BABY, PT. 2

Kings of King of Queens

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 20, 2021 92:46


Gotcha! Okay, for real this time, Kyle and Evan watch and discuss Season 1, Episode 25: Maybe Baby! Douglas would love to hear the pitter-patter of little Heffernan hoofs on the linoleum, but Carrie is conflicted! The classic dilemma of the modern woman; career or family?? (Theme Song: Traffic Isle by Lobo Loco) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

MicroFamous
When Guests Don't Share Their Episode: 3 Ways Podcasters Are Shooting Themselves in the Foot & Losing Word of Mouth Right Now

MicroFamous

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 17:26


Guests not sharing their episodes is one of the biggest frustrations of running a podcast. But is it the guest's fault? Not always. In this episode of MicroFamous we dive into 3 key mistakes podcasters are making right now that keep guests from even wanting to share their episode. And of course, we talk about how to avoid those mistakes and create an episode that guests are excited to share. Let's jump in! Mistake #1: We presented the guest in a way that adds nothing to their reputation or their level of influence. This could be in how we introduce them, how we phrase their accomplishments, how we describe or promote their offer, or even the picture we use in the graphics we create. There are SO many opportunities to screw this up. When my staff selects the headshot to use in our graphics, we're always looking for what the GUEST has already chosen as their primary headshot, from places like their website or LinkedIn profile. If we can't find something that is obviously their favorite, or all their stuff is low quality, we reach out to ask for a high-quality headshot.  Even something as simple as the wrong headshot can cause some folks to not share your episode. It could even rise to the level of a flat-out screw up, as I mentioned in the case of the podcaster who featured me on an episode which was released last week. They got the name of my company wrong, even right in the graphic they wanted me to share. I wanted to share their episode, I tried to share it, but I wasn't comfortable sending people to their Show Notes page because of how badly they screwed it up. And I couldn't even send folks to the episode using their graphic because even that was screwed up. Stick around to the end for my best quick tip on how to present someone in a powerful way. Mistake #2: We interview rather than having a conversation. When you've been a guest on a bunch of podcasts, you want a conversation, not an interrogation. That's why I refer to my guest episodes as conversation episodes, not interviews. I try to drill it into all my client's heads, These are not interviews. You are not an interviewer. You are an expert and influencer in your own right. No matter how big the guest is, this is a dialogue between two experts who each have their own perspective and value to bring to the episode. Remember to be thoughtful and respectful of your guest. I'm not talking going overboard and playing devil's advocate, trying to create Gotcha moments or running roughshod over them with your own opinions. We're talking about a real conversation between two experts who each have well thought out opinions on an interesting topic that is super important to a group of people. That's why people show up for business podcasts. Plus you get a nice bonus, since treating a guest episode as a conversation between two experts also puts you on a more even playing field and boosts your level of influence with your own audience. There's something about your audience hearing you have a smart, thoughtful conversation with someone they respect. It raises their level of respect for you. I've experienced that with my journey, and it's an incredible thing to feel. Mistake #3: We covered the same topics they share on every other podcast, we failed to draw anything unique and compelling out of them. Some podcasters ask roughly the same questions every time, and in the right setting that can work. But many big name guests have been on a bunch of podcasts and have shared on their signature topic many, many times. It's critical to draw something out of them that they haven't shared before. You can do this with well-researched questions, like Tim Ferris. You can do this by going down rabbit trails, chasing whatever sticks out to you in the moment. Christopher Lochhead Follow Your Different is a good example of this style. You can also do this by listening carefully for the most compelling, interesting,

The Swyx Mixtape
[Weekend Drop] Cloudflare vs AWS, API Economy, Learning in Public on the Changelog

The Swyx Mixtape

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 12, 2021 68:13


Listen to the Changelog: https://changelog.com/podcast/467Essays: https://www.swyx.io/LIP https://www.swyx.io/api-economy https://www.swyx.io/cloudflare-go TranscriptJerod Santo: So swyx, we have been tracking your work for years; well, you've been Learning in Public for years, so I've been (I guess) watching you learn, but we've never had you on the show, so welcome to The Changelog.Shawn Wang: Thank you. Long-time listener, first-time guest, I guess... [laughs]Adam Stacoviak: Yeah.Jerod Santo: Happy to have you here.Adam Stacoviak: Very excited to have you here.Jerod Santo: So tell us a little bit of your story, because I think it informs the rest of our conversation. We're gonna go somewhat deep into some of your ideas, some of the dots you've been connecting as you participate and watch the tech industry... But I think for this conversation it's probably useful to get to know you, and how you got to be where you are. Not the long, detailed story, but maybe the elevator pitch of your recent history. Do you wanna hook us up?Shawn Wang: For sure. For those who want the long history, I did a 2,5-hour podcast with Quincy Larson from FreeCodeCamp, so you can go check that out if you want. The short version is I'm born and raised in Singapore, came to the States for college, and was totally focused on finance. I thought people who were in the finance industry rules the world, they were masters of the universe... And I graduated just in time for the financial crisis, so not a great place to be in. But I worked my way up and did about 6-7 years of investment banking and hedge funds, primarily trading derivatives and tech stocks. And the more I covered tech stocks, the more I realized "Oh, actually a) the technology is taking over the world, b) all the value is being created pre-IPO, so I was investing in public stocks, after they were basically done growing... And you're kind of just like picking over the public remains. That's not exactly true, but...Jerod Santo: Yeah, tell that to Shopify...Shawn Wang: I know, exactly, right?Adam Stacoviak: And GitLab.Shawn Wang: People do IPO and have significant growth after, but that's much more of a risk than at the early stage, where there's a playbook... And I realized that I'd much rather be value-creating than investing. So I changed careers at age 30, I did six months of FreeCodeCamp, and after six months of FreeCodeCamp - you know, I finished it, and that's record time for FreeCodeCamp... But I finished it and felt not ready, so I enrolled myself in a paid code camp, Full Stack Academy in New York, and came out of it working for Two Sigma as a frontend developer. I did that for a year, until Netlify came along and offered me a dev rel job. I took that, and that's kind of been my claim to fame; it's what most people know me for, which is essentially being a speaker and a writer from my Netlify days, from speaking about React quite a bit.[04:13] I joined AWS in early 2020, lasted a year... I actually was very keen on just learning the entire AWS ecosystem. You know, a frontend developer approaching AWS is a very intimidating task... But Temporal came along, and now I'm head of developer experience at Temporal.Adam Stacoviak: It's an interesting path. I love the -- we're obviously huge fans of FreeCodeCamp, and Quincy, and all the work he's done, and the rest of the team has done to make FreeCodeCamp literally free, globally... So I love to see -- it makes you super-happy inside just to know how that work impacts real people.Like, you see things happen out there, and you think "Oh, that's impacting", but then you really meet somebody, and 1) you said you're a long-time listener, and now you're on the show, so it just really -- like, having been in the trenches so long, and just see all this over-time pay off just makes me really believe in that whole "Slow and steady, keep showing up, do what needs done", and eventually things happen. I just love that.Shawn Wang: Yeah. There's an infinite game mentality to this. But I don't want to diminish the concept of free, so... It bothers me a little, because Quincy actually struggles a lot with the financial side of things. He supports millions of people on like a 300k budget. 300k. If every single one of us who graduated at FreeCodeCamp and went on to a successful tech career actually paid for our FreeCodeCamp education - which is what I did; we started the hashtag. It hasn't really taken off, but I started a hashtag called #payitbackwards. Like, just go back, once you're done -- once you can afford it, just go back and pay what you thought it was worth. For me, I've paid 20k, and I hope that everyone who graduates FreeCodeCamp does that, to keep it going.Adam Stacoviak: Well, I mean, why not...?Shawn Wang: I'd also say one thing... The important part of being free is that I can do it on nights and weekends and take my time to decide if I want to change careers. So it's not just a free replacement to bootcamps, it actually is an async, self-guided, dip-your-toe-in-the-water, try-before-you-buy type of thing for people who might potentially change their lives... And that's exactly what happened for me. I kept my day job until the point I was like "Okay, I like enough of this... I'm still not good, but I like enough of this that I think I could do this full-time."Adam Stacoviak: I like the #payitbackwards hashtag. I wish it had more steam, I suppose.Jerod Santo: We should throw some weight behind that, Adam, and see if we can...Adam Stacoviak: Yeah. Well, you know, you think about Lambda School, for example - and I don't wanna throw any shade by any means, because I think what Austin has done with Lambda... He's been on Founders Talk before, and we talked deeply about this idea of making a CS degree cost nothing, and there's been a lot of movement on that front there... But you essentially go through a TL;DR of Lambda as you go through it, and you pay it after you get a job if you hit certain criteria, and you pay it based upon your earnings. So why not, right? Why not have a program like that for FreeCodeCamp, now that you actually have to commit to it... But it's a way. I love that you paid that back and you made that an avenue, an idea of how you could pay back FreeCodeCamp, despite the commitment not being there.Jerod Santo: Right.Shawn Wang: Yeah. And Quincy is very dedicated to it being voluntary. He thinks that people have different financial situations. I don't have kids, so I can afford a bit more. People should have that sort of moral obligation rather than legal obligation.I should mention that Lambda School is currently being accused of some fairly substantial fraud against its students...Jerod Santo: Oh, really?Shawn Wang: Yeah, it actually just came out like two days ago.Adam Stacoviak: I saw that news too, on Monday.Shawn Wang: Yeah. It's not evidenced in the court of law, it's one guy digging up dirt; let's kind of put this in perspective. But still, it's very serious allegations, and it should be investigated. That said, the business of changing careers and the business of teaching people to code, and this innovation of Income Share Agreements (ISA), where it actually makes financial sense for people to grow bootcamps and fund bootcamps - this is something I strongly support... Whether or not it should be a venture-funded thing, where you try to go for 10x growth every year - probably not... [laughs]Adam Stacoviak: Yeah...Jerod Santo: So after FreeCodeCamp you didn't feel quite ready, so you did do a bootcamp... Did you feel ready after that?Shawn Wang: [08:03] Yeah. [laughs] I did a reflection, by the way, of my first year of learning to code, so people can look it up... It's called "No zero days. My path to learning to code", and I think I posted it on Hacker News. And doing everything twice actually helped me a lot. Because before I came into my paid bootcamp, I had already spun up some React apps. I had already started to mess with WebPack, and I knew enough that I wasn't understanding it very much, I was just following the instructions. But the second time you do things, you have to space, to really try to experiment, to actually read the docs, which most people don't do, and actually try to understand what the hell it is you're doing. And I felt that I had an edge over the other people in my bootcamp because I did six months of FreeCodeCamp prior.Jerod Santo: So this other thing that you do, which not everybody does, is this Learning in Public idea... And you have this post, Learn in Public. You call it "The fastest way to learn", or the fastest way to build your expertise - networking, and second brain. I'm not sure what the second brain is, so help us out with that one... But also, why is learning in public faster than learning in private.Shawn Wang: Yeah. This is a reflection that came from me understanding the difference, qualitatively, between why I'm doing so well in my tech career versus my finance career. In finance, everything is private, meaning the investment memos that I wrote, the trade ideas that I had - they're just from a company; they're intellectual property of my company. In fact, I no longer own them. Some of my best work has been in that phase, and it's locked up in an email inbox somewhere, and I'll never see it again. And that's because tech is a fundamentally open and positive-sum industry, where if you share things, you don't lose anything; you actually gain from sharing things... Whereas in finance it's a zero-sum battle against who's got the secret first and who can act on it first.And I think when you're in tech, you should exploit that. I think that we have been trained our entire lives to be zero-sum, from just like the earliest days of our school, where we learn, we keep it to ourselves to try to pass the test, try to get the best scores, try to get the best jobs, the best colleges, and all that, because everything's positional. For you to win, others have to lose. But I don't see tech in that way, primarily because tech is still growing so fast. There's multiple ways for people to succeed, and that's just the fundamental baseline. You layer on top of that a bunch of other psychological phenomenon.I've been really fascinated by this, by what it is so effective. First of all, you have your skin in the game, meaning that a lot of times when your name is on the blog posts out there, or your name is on the talk that you gave, your face is there, and people can criticize you, you're just incentivized to learn better, instead of just "Oh, I'll read this and then I'll try to remember it." No, it doesn't really stick as much. So having skin in the game really helps.When you get something wrong in public, there are two effects that happen. First is people will climb over broken glass to correct you, because that's how the internet does. There's a famous XKCD comic where like "I can't go to bed yet." "Why?" "Someone's wrong on the internet. I have to correct them."Jerod Santo: Right.Shawn Wang: So people are incentivized to fix your flaws for you - and that's fantastic - if you have a small ego.Jerod Santo: I was gonna say, that requires thick skin.Shawn Wang: Yeah, exactly. So honestly -- and that's a barrier for a lot of people. They cannot get over this embarrassment. What I always say is you can learn so much on the internet, for the low, low price of your ego. If we can get over that, we can learn so much, just because you don't care. And the way to get over it is to just realize that the version that you put out today is the version you should be embarrassed about a year from now, because that shows that you've grown. So you divorce your identity from your work, and just let people criticize your work; it's fine, because it was done by you, before you knew what you know today. And that's totally fine.And then the second part, which is that once you've gotten something wrong in public, it's just so embarrassing that you just remember it in a much clearer fashion. [laughter] This built a feedback loop, because once you started doing this, and you show people that you respond to feedback, then it builds a feedback and an expectation that you'll do the next thing, and people respond to the next thing... It becomes a conversation, rather than a solitary endeavor of you just learning the source material.So I really like that viral feedback loop. It helps you grow your reputation... Because this is not just useful for people who are behind you; a lot of people, when they blog, when they write, when they speak, they're talking down. They're like "I have five years experience in this. Here's the intro to whatever. Here's the approach to beginners." They don't actually get much out of that.[12:17] That's really good, by the way, for beginners; that's really important, that experts in the field share their knowledge. They don't see this blogging or this speaking as a way to level up in terms of speaking to their experts in their fields. But I think it's actually very helpful. You can be helpful to people behind you, you can be helpful to people around you, but you can actually be helpful to people ahead of you, because you're helping to basically broadcast or personalize their message. They can check their messaging and see - if you're getting this wrong, then they're getting something wrong on their end, docs-wise, or messaging-wise. That becomes a really good conversation. I've interacted with mentors that way. That's much more how I prefer to interact with my mentors than DM-ing and saying "Hey, can you be my mentor?", which is an unspecified, unpaid, indefinitely long job, which nobody really enjoys. I like project-based mentorship, I like occasional mentorship... I really think that that develops when you learn in public.Adam Stacoviak: I've heard it say that "Today is the tomorrow you hope for."Shawn Wang: Wow.Adam Stacoviak: Because today is always tomorrow at some point, right? Like, today is the day, and today you were hoping for tomorrow to be better...Jerod Santo: I think by definition today is not tomorrow...Adam Stacoviak: No, today is the tomorrow that you hoped for... Meaning like "Seize your moment. It's here."Jerod Santo: Carpe diem. Gotcha.Adam Stacoviak: Yeah, kind of a thing like that.Shawn Wang: I feel a little shady -- obviously, I agree, but also, I feel a little shady whenever I venture into this territory, because then it becomes very motivational speaking-wise, and I'm not about that. [laughs]Adam Stacoviak: Kind of... But I think you're in the right place; keep showing up where you need to be - that kind of thing. But I think your perspective though comes from the fact that you had this finance career, and a different perspective on the way work and the way a career progressed. And so you have a dichotomy essentially between two different worlds; one where it's private, and one where it's open. That to me is pretty interesting, how you were able to tie those two together and see things differently. Because I think too often sometimes in tech, especially staying around late at night, correcting someone on the internet, you're just so deeply in one industry, and you have almost a bubble around you. You have one lens for which you see the world. And you've been able to have multi-faceted perspectives of this world, as well as others, because of a more informed career path.Jerod Santo: Yeah. When you talk about finance as a zero-sum game, I feel like there's actually been moves now to actually open up about finance as well; I'm not sure if either of you have tracked the celebrity rise of Cathie Wood and Ark Invest, and a lot of the moves that she's doing in public. They're an investment fund, and they will actually publish their moves at the end of every day. Like, "We sold these stocks. We bought these stocks." And people laughed at that for a while, but because she's been successful with early on Bitcoin, early with Tesla, she's very much into growth stocks - because of that, people started to follow her very closely and just emulate. And when she makes moves now, it makes news on a lot of the C-SPANs and the... Is C-SPAN the Congress one? What's the one that's the finance one...?Shawn Wang: CNBC?Jerod Santo: CNBC, not C-SPAN. And so she's very much learning in public. She's making her moves public, she's learning as she goes, and to a certain degree it's paid off, it's paid dividends in her career. Now, I'm not sure if everyone's doing that... When you look at crypto investors, like - okay, pseudonymous, but a lot of that stuff, public ledgers. So there's moves that are being made in public there as well. So I wonder if eventually some of that mentality will change. What do you think about that?Shawn Wang: [15:45] It's definitely changed for -- there's always been celebrity investors, and people have been copying the Buffett portfolio for 30 years. So none of that is new. What is new is that Cathie Wood is running an ETF, and just by way of regulation and by way of innovation, she does have to report those changes. [laughs] So mutual funds, hedge fund holdings - these have all been public, and people do follow them. And you're always incentivized to talk your book after you've established your position in your book...Jerod Santo: Right, but you establish it first.Shawn Wang: ...so none of that has changed. But yeah, Cathie has been leading an open approach...Jerod Santo: Is it the rate of disclosure perhaps that's new? Because it seems like it's more real-time than it has historically...Shawn Wang: Yeah. I mean, she's running an ETF, which is new, actually... Because most people just run mutual funds or hedge funds, and those are much more private. The other two I'll probably shout out is Patrick O'Shaughnessy who's been running I guess a fund of funds, and he's been fairly open. He actually adopted the "learn in public" slogan in the finance field, independently of me. And then finally, the other one is probably Ted Seides, who is on the institutional investor side of things. So he invests for universities, and teachers pensions, and stuff like that. So all these people - yeah, they've been leading that... I'm not sure if it's spreading, or they've just been extraordinarily successful in celebrity because of it.Adam Stacoviak: This idea of "in public" is happening. You see people too, like -- CopyAI is building in public... This idea of learning in public, or building in public, or exiting in public... Whatever the public might be, it's happening more and more... And I think it's definitely similar to the way that open source moves around. It's open, so it's visible to everyone. There's no barrier to see what's happening, whether it's positive or negative, with whatever it is in public. They're leveraging this to their advantage, because it's basically free marketing. And that's how the world has evolved to use social media. Social media has inherently been public, because it's social...Jerod Santo: Sure.Adam Stacoviak: Aside from Facebook being gated, with friends and stuff like that... Twitter is probably the most primary example of that, maybe even TikTok, where if I'm a creator on TikTok, I almost can't control who sees my contact. I assume it's for the world, and theoretically, controlled by the algorithm... Because if I live in Europe, I may not see content in the U.S, and the algorithm says no, or whatever. But it's almost like everybody is just in public in those spaces, and they're leveraging it to their advantage... Which is an interesting place to be at in the world. There was never an opportunity before; you couldn't do it at that level, at that scale, ten years ago, twenty years ago. It's a now moment.Jerod Santo: Yeah. Swyx, can you give us an example of something learned in public? Do you basically mean like blog when you've learned something, or ask questions? What does learning in public actually mean when it comes to -- say, take a technology. Maybe you don't understand Redux. I could raise my hand on that one... [laughter] How could I learn that in public?Shawn Wang: There are a bunch of things that you can try. You can record a livestream of you going through the docs, and that's useful to maintainers, understanding "Hey, is this useful or not?" And that's immediately useful. It's so tangible.I actually have a list -- I have a talk about this on the blog post as well... Just a suggestion of things you can do. It's not just blogging. You can speak, you can draw comics, cheatsheets are really helpful... I think Amy Hoy did a Ruby on Rails cheatsheet that basically everyone has printed out and stapled to their wall, or something... And if you can do a nice cheatsheet, I think that's also a way for you to internalize those things that you're trying to learn anyway, and it just so happens to benefit others.So I really like this idea that whatever content you're doing, it's learning exhaust, it's a side effect of you learning, and you just happen to put it out there; you understand what formats work for you, because you have abnormal talents. Especially if you can draw, do that. People love developers who can draw. And then you just put it out there, and you win anyway just by doing it. You don't need an audience. You get one if you do this long enough, but you don't need an audience right away. And you win whether or not people participate with you. It's a single-player game that can become a multiplayer game.Specifically for Redux - you know, go through source code, or go through the docs, build a sample app, do like a simple little YouTube video on it... Depending on the maturity, you may want to try to speak at a meetup, or whatever... You don't have to make everything a big deal. I'm trying to remove the perception from people that everything has to be this big step, like it has to be top of Hacker News, or something. No. It could just be helpful for one person. I often write blog posts with one persona in mind. I mean, I don't name that person, but if you focus on that target persona, actually often it does better than when you try to make some giant thesis that shakes the world...Adam Stacoviak: [20:22] Yeah. Too often we don't move because we feel like the weight of the move is just too much. It's like "How many people have to read this for me to make this a success for me?" You mentioned it's a learning exhaust... And this exhaust that you've put out before - has it been helpful really to you? Is that exhaust process very helpful to you? Is that ingrained in the learnings that you've just gone through, just sort of like synthesize "Okay, I learned. Here's actually what I learned"?Shawn Wang: Yeah. This is actually an opportunity to tie into that second brain concept which maybe you wanted to talk a little bit about. Everything that you write down becomes your second brain. At this point I can search Google for anything I've ever written on something, and actually come up on my own notes, on whatever I had. So I'm not relying on my memory for that. Your human brain, your first brain is not very good at storage, and it's not very good at search; so why not outsource that to computers? And the only way to do that is you have to serialize your knowledge down into some machine-readable format that's part of research. I do it in a number of places; right now I do it across GitHub, and my blog, and a little bit of my Discord. Any place where you find you can store knowledge, I think that's a really good second brain.And for Jerod, I'll give you an example I actually was gonna bring up, which is when I was trying to learn React and TypeScript - like, this goes all the way back to my first developer job. I was asked to do TypeScript, even though I'd never done it before. And honestly, my team lead was just like "You know TypeScript, right? You're a professional React dev, you have to know TypeScript." And I actually said no, and I started learning on day one.And what I did was I created the React to TypeScript cheatsheet, which literally was just copy-pasteable code of everything that I found useful and I wish I knew when I was starting out. And I've just built that over time. That thing's been live for three years now, it's got like 20,000 stars. I've taught thousands of developers from Uber, from Microsoft, React and TypeScript. And they've taught me - every time they send in a question or a PR... I think it's a very fundamental way of interacting, which is learning in public, but specifically this one - it's open source knowledge; bringing up our open source not just to code, but to everything else. I think that's a fundamental feedback loop that I've really enjoyed as well.Break: [22:31]Jerod Santo: One of the things I appreciate about you, swyx, is how you are always thinking, always writing down your thoughts... You've been watching and participating in this industry now for a while, and you've had some pretty (I think) insightful writings lately. The first one I wanna talk about is this API Economy post. The Light and Dark Side of the API Economy. You say "Developers severely underestimate the importance of this to their own career." So I figure if that's the case, we should hear more about it, right?Shawn Wang: [laughs] Happy to talk about it. So what is the API economy? The API economy is developers reshaping the world in their image. Very bold statement, but kind of true, in the sense that there is now an API for everything - API for cards, API for bank accounts, API for text, API for authentication, API for shipping physical goods... There's all sorts of APIs. And what that enables you to do as a developer is you can call an API - as long as you know REST or GraphQL these days, you know how to invoke these things and make these things function according to the rest of your program. You can just fit those things right in. They're a very powerful thing to have, because now the cost of developing one of these services just goes down dramatically, because there's another company doing that as a service for you.I wrote about it mainly because at Netlify we were pitching serverless, we were pitching static hosting, and we were pitching APIs. That's the A in JAMstack. But when I google "API economy", all the search results were terrible. Just horrible SEO, bland, meaningless stuff that did not speak to developers; it was just speaking to people who like tech buzzwords. So I wrote my own version. The people who coined it at Andreessen Horowitz, by the way, still to this day do not have a blog post on the API economy. They just have one podcast recording which nobody's gonna listen. So I just wrote my version.Jerod Santo: You're saying people don't listen to podcasts, or what?Shawn Wang: [laughs] When people are looking up a term, they are like "What is this thing?", and you give them a podcast, they're not gonna sit down and listen for 46 minutes on a topic. They just want like "Give me it, in one paragraph. Give me a visual, and I'm gonna move on with my day." So yeah, whenever I see an opportunity like that, I try to write it up. And that's the light side; a lot of people talk about the light side. But because it's a personal blog, I'm empowered to also talk about the dark side, which is that as much as it enables developers, it actually is a little bit diminishing the status of human expertise and labor and talent. So we can talk a little bit about that, but I'm just gonna give you time to respond.Jerod Santo: [28:05] Hm. I'm over here thinking now that you're not at Netlify, I'm curious - this is tangential, but what's your take on JAMstack now? I know you were a professional salesman there for a while, but... It seems like JAMstack - we've covered it for years, it's a marketing term, it's something we've already been doing, but maybe taking it to the next level... There's lots of players now - Netlify, Vercel etc. And yet, I don't see much out there in the real world beyond the people doing demos, "Here's how to build a blog, here's how to do this, here's my personal website", and I'm just curious... I'm not like down on JAMstack, but I just don't see it manifesting in the ways that people have been claiming it's going to... And maybe we're just waiting for the technology to catch up. I'd just love to hear what you think about it now.Shawn Wang: Yeah. I think that you're maybe not involved in that world, so you don't see this, but real companies are moving on to JAMstack. The phrasing that I like is that -- JAMstack has gone mainstream, and it's not even worth talking about these days, because it's just granted that that's an option for you... So PayPal.me is on the JAMstack, there's large e-commerce sites... Basically, anything that decouples your backend from your frontend, and your frontend is statically-hosted - that is JAMstack.I actually am blanking on the name, but if you go check out the recent JAMstack Conf, they have a bunch of examples of people who've not only moved to JAMstack, but obviously moved to Netlify, where they're trying to promote themselves.Jerod Santo: Sure, yeah.Shawn Wang: So yes, it's true that I'm no longer a professional spokesperson, but it's not true that JAMstack is no longer being applied in the enterprise, because it is getting adoption; it's moved on that boring phase where people don't talk about it.One thing I'll say - a thesis that I've been pursuing is that JAMstack is in its endgame. And what do I mean by that? There's a spectrum between the previous paradigm that JAMstack was pushing back on, which is the all-WordPress/server-render-everything paradigm, and then JAMstack is prerender-everything. And now people are filling in--Jerod Santo: In the middle.Shawn Wang: ...I'm gonna put my hands in the Zoom screen right now. People are filling that gap between fully dynamic and fully static. So that's what you see with Next.js and Gatsby moving into serverless rendering, partial rendering or incremental rendering... And there's a full spectrum of ways in which you can optimize your rendering for the trade-offs of updating your content, versus getting your data/content delivered as quickly as possible. There's always some amount of precompilation that you need to do, and there's always some amount of dynamicism that you have to do, that cannot be precompiled. So now there is a full spectrum between those.Why I say it's the end game is because that's it, there's nothing else to explore. It's full-dynamic, full-static, choose some mix in the middle, that's it. It's boring.Jerod Santo: Hasn't that always been the case though? Hasn't there always been sites that server-side render some stuff, and pre-render other things? You know, we cache, we pre-render, some people crawl their own websites once, and... I don't know it seems like maybe just a lot of excitement around a lot of things that we've been doing for many years.Shawn Wang: [laughs] So first of all, those are being remade in the React ecosystem of things, which a lot of us lost when a lot of the web development industry moved to React... So that's an important thing to get back.I mean, I agree, that's something that we've always had, pre-rendering, and services like that, caching at the CDN layer - we've always had that. There's some differences... So if you understand Netlify and why they're trying to push distributed persistent rendering (DVR), it's because caching is a hard problem, and people always end up turning off the cache. Because the first time you run into a bug, you're gonna turn off the cache. And the cache is gonna stay off.So the way that Netlify is trying to fix it is that we put the cache in Git, essentially. Git is the source of truth, instead of some other source of truth distributed somewhere between your CDN and your database and somewhere else. No, everything's in Git. I'm not sure if I've represented that well, to be honest... [laughter]Adam Stacoviak: Well, good thing you don't work for Netlify anymore. We're not holding you to the Netlify standard.Shawn Wang: [31:58] Exactly. All I can say is that to me now it's a good thing in the sense that it's boring. It's the good kind of boring, in the sense of like "Okay, there's a spectrum. There's all these techniques. Yes, there were previous techniques, but now these are the new hotness. Pick your choice." I can get into a technical discussion of why this technique, the first one, the others... But also, is it that interesting unless you're evaluating for your site? Probably not...Jerod Santo: Well, it does play into this API economy though, right? Because when you're full JAMstack, then the A is your most important thing, and when the A is owned by a bunch of companies that aren't yours - like, there's a little bit of dark side there, right? All of a sudden, now I'm not necessarily the proprietor of my own website, to a certain degree, because I have these contracts. I may or may not get cut off... There's a lot of concerns when everybody else is a dependency to your website.Shawn Wang: Yeah. So I don't consider that a dark side at all.Jerod Santo: No, I'm saying to me that seems like a dark side.Shawn Wang: Yeah, sure. This is the risk of lock-in; you're handing over your faith and your uptime to other people. So you have to trade that off, versus "Can you build this yourself? And are you capable of doing something like this, and are you capable of maintaining it?" And that is a very high upfront cost, versus the variable cost of just hiring one of these people to do it for you as a service.So what I would say is that the API economy is a net addition, because you as a startup - the startup cost is very little, and if you get big enough where it makes sense for you to build in-house - go ahead. But this is a net new addition for you to turn fixed costs into variable costs, and start with a small amount of investment. But I can hire -- like, Algolia was started by three Ph.D's in search, and I can hire them for cents to do search on my crummy little website. I will absolutely do that every single day, until I get to a big enough point where I cannot depend on them anymore, and I have to build my own search. Fine, I'll do that. But until then, I can just rely on them. That's a new addition there.Jerod Santo: One hundred percent. So what then do you think is the darker side? You mentioned it, but put a finer point on it.Shawn Wang: Yeah. The dark side is that there are people -- like, when I call an Uber ride, Uber is an API for teleportation, essentially. I'm here, I wanna go there. I press a button, the car shows up. I get in the car, get off, I'm there. What this papers over is that the API is calling real actual humans, who are being commoditized. I don't care who drives the car, I really don't. I mean, they may have some ratings, but I kind of don't care.Jerod Santo: That was the case with taxis though, wasn't it?Shawn Wang: That was the case with taxis, for sure. But there's a lot of people living below the API, who are economically constrained, and people who live above the API, developers, who have all the upside, essentially... Because the developers are unique, the labor is commoditized. My DoorDash pickers, my Instacart deliverers - all these are subsumed under the API economy. They're commodities forever, they know it, and there's no way out for them, unless they become developers themselves. There's a class system developing below and above the API. And the moment we can replace these people under the API with robots, you better believe we'll do that, because robots are way cheaper, and they complain less, they can work 24 hours, all this stuff.Jerod Santo: Yeah.Shawn Wang: So that's the dark side, which is, yeah, as a developer now - fantastic. I can control most parts of the economy with just a single API call. As a startup founder, I can develop an API for literally anything, and people will buy it. The downside is human talent is being commoditized, and I don't know how to feel about that. I think people are not talking enough about it, and I just wanna flag it to people.Jerod Santo: Yeah.Adam Stacoviak: So dark side could mean a couple things. One, it could mean literally bad; dark as synonymous with bad. Or dark as in shady. And we're not sure, it's obscured in terms of what's happening. And so let's use an Instacarter or a Dasher - to use their terminology. I happen to be a DoorDash user, so I know they're called Dashers; that's the only reason I know that. It's not a downplay, it's just simply what the terminology is...[35:59] You could say it's below the API, but I wonder, if you've spoken with these people, or people that live in what you call below the API, because I would imagine they're not doing that because they're being forced. Like, it's an opportunity for them.Shawn Wang: Oh, yeah.Adam Stacoviak: And I remember when I was younger and I had less opportunity because I had less "above the API" (so to speak) talent... And I do agree there's a class here, but I wonder if it's truly bad; that dark is truly bad, or if it's just simply obscure in terms of how it's gonna play out.Shawn Wang: This is about upside. They will never get to that six figures income with this thing.Adam Stacoviak: Not that job.Jerod Santo: No.Shawn Wang: It's really about the class system, which is the dark side. You don't want to have society splinter into like a serving class and whatever the non-serving class is. It's also about the upside - like, I don't see a way for these people to break out unless, they really just take a hard stop and just go to a completely different career track.Jerod Santo: Right.Adam Stacoviak: Here's where I have a hard time with that... I'm not pushing back on that you're wrong, I'm just wondering more deeply...Shawn Wang: Sure.Adam Stacoviak: I imagine at one point in my life I was a DoorDasher.Shawn Wang: Yeah.Adam Stacoviak: I washed dishes, I did definitely unique jobs at a young age before I had skill. And so the path is skill, and as long as we have a path to skill, which you've show-cased through FreeCodeCamp in your path, then I think that dark side is just simply shady, and not bad.Shawn Wang: Okay.Adam Stacoviak: And I'm just trying to understand it, because I was truly a DoorDasher before DoorDash was available. I washed dishes, delivered papers, I had servant-level things; I was literally a server at a restaurant before... And I loved doing that kind of work, but my talents have allowed me to go above that specific job, and maybe even the pay that came with that job. I've served in the military before, got paid terrible dollars, but I loved the United States military; it's great. And I love everybody who's served in our military. But the point is, I think the path is skill, and as long as we have a pathway to skill, and jobs that can house that skill and leverage that skill to create new value for the world, I just wonder if it's just necessary for society to have, I suppose, above and below API things.Jerod Santo: Until we have all the robots. Then there is nobody underneath. At that point it's all robots under the API.Shawn Wang: Yes, and that is true in a lot of senses, actually. Like, farming is mostly robots these days. You do have individual farmers, but they're much less than they used to be. I don't know what to say about that, shady or dark... I think it's just -- there's no career track. You have to go break out of that system yourself. Thank God there's a way to do it. But back in the day, you used to be able to go from the mailroom to the boardroom.Adam Stacoviak: I see.Shawn Wang: I see these stories of people who used to be janitors at schools become the principal. Companies used to invest in all their people and bring them up. But now we're just hiring your time, and then if you wanna break out of that system - good luck, you're on your own. I think that that lack of upward mobility is a problem, and you're not gonna see it today. It's a slow-moving train wreck. But it's gonna happen where you have society split in two, and bad things happen because of it.Adam Stacoviak: I mean, I could agree with that part there, that there definitely is no lateral movement from Dasher to CEO of DoorDash.Shawn Wang: It's just not gonna happen.Adam Stacoviak: Or VP of engineering at DoorDash. I think because there is no path, the path would be step outside of that system, because that system doesn't have a path. I could agree with that, for sure.Jerod Santo: Yeah. I mean, the good news is that we are creating -- there are paths. This is not like a path from X to Y through that system, but there are other alternate paths that we are creating and investing in, and as well as the API gets pushed further and further down in terms of reachability - we now have more and more access to those things. It's easier now, today, than it ever has been, because of what we were talking about, to be the startup founder, right? To be the person who starts at CEO because the company has one person in it, and they're the CEO. And to succeed in that case, and become the next DoorDash.Adam Stacoviak: True.Jerod Santo: So there are opportunities to get out, it's just not a clear line... And yeah, it takes perhaps some mentorship, perhaps ingenuity... A lot of the things that it takes to succeed anyway, so...Shawn Wang: [40:05] I'll give a closing note for developers who are listening, because you're already a developer... So the analogy is if you're above the API, you tell machines what to do; if you're below the API, machines tell you what to do. So here's the developer analogy, which is there's another division in society, which is the kanban board. If you're below the kanban board, the kanban board tells you what to do. If you're above it, you tell developers what to do. [laughs]Jerod Santo: There you go.Shawn Wang: So how do you break out of that class division? I'll leave it out to you, but just keep in mind, there's always layers.Jerod Santo: I love that.Adam Stacoviak: I love the discussion around it, but I'm also thankful you approached the subject by a way of a blog post, because I do believe that this is interesting to talk about, and people should talk about it, for sure. Because it provides introspection into, I guess, potentially something you don't really think about, like "Do I live below or above the APi?" I've never thought about that in that way until this very moment, talking to you, so... I love that.Break: [40:58]Jerod Santo: So another awesome post you have written lately is about Cloudflare and AWS. Go - not the language, the game Go... I know very little about the language, and I know even less about the game... And Chess... How Cloudflare is approaching things, versus how AWS and Google and others are... Given us the TL;DR of that post, and then we'll discuss.Shawn Wang: Okay. The TL;DR of that post is that Cloudflare is trying to become the fourth major cloud after AWS, Azure and GCP. The way they're doing it is fundamentally different than the other three, and the more I've studied them - I basically observed Cloudflare for the entire time since I joined Netlify. Netlify kind of is a competitor to Cloudflare, and it's always this uncomfortable debate between "Should you put Cloudflare in front of Netlify? Netlify itself is a CDN. Why would you put a CDN in front of another CDN?" Oh, because Netlify charges for bandwidth, and Cloudflare does not. [laughter]Jerod Santo: It's as simple as that.Shawn Wang: And then there's DDOS protection, all that stuff; very complicated. Go look up the Netlify blog post on why you should not put Cloudflare in front of Netlify, and decide for yourself. But Netlify now taking on AWS S3 - S3 is like a crown jewel of AWS. This is the eighth wonder of the world. It provides eleven nines of durability. Nothing less than the sun exploding will take this thing down... [laughs]Jerod Santo: Right? You know what's funny - I don't even consider us at Changelog AWS customers; I don't even think of us that way. But of course, we use S3, because that's what you do. So yeah, we're very much AWS customers, even though I barely even think about it, because S3 is just like this thing that of course you're gonna use.Shawn Wang: There's been a recent history of people putting out S3-compatible APIs, just because it's so dominant that it becomes the de-facto standard. Backblaze did it recently. But Cloudflare putting out R2 and explicitly saying "You can slurp up the S3 data, and by the way, here's all the cost-benefit of AWS egress charges that's what Matthew Prince wrote about in his blog post is all totally true, attacks a part of AWS that it cannot compromise on and just comes at the top three clouds from a different way, that they cannot respond to.[44:17] So I always like these analogies of how people play destruction games. I'm a student of destruction, and I study Ben Thompson and Clay Christensen, and that entire world, very quickly... So I thought this was a different model of destruction, where you're essentially embracing rather than trying to compete head-on. And wrapping around it is essentially what Go does versus chess, and I like -- you know, there's all these comparisons, like "You're playing 2D chess, I'm playing 3D chess. You're playing chess, I'm playing Go." So Cloudflare is playing Go by surrounding the S3 service and saying "Here is a strict superset. You're already a consumer of S3. Put us on, and magically your costs get lower. Nothing else about it changes, including your data still lives in AWS if you ever decide to leave us." Or if you want to move to Cloudflare, you've just gotta do the final step of cutting off S3.That is a genius, brilliant move that I think people don't really appreciate, and it's something that I study a lot, because I work at companies that try to become the next big cloud. I worked at Netlify, and a lot of people are asking, "Can you build a large public company on top of another cloud? Our second-layer cloud is viable." I think Vercel and Netlify are proving that partially it is. They're both highly valued. I almost leaked some info there... When does this go out? [laughs]Jerod Santo: Next week, probably...Shawn Wang: Okay, alright... So they're both highly valued, and - like, can they be hundred-billion-dollar companies? I don't know. We don't know the end state of cloud, but I think people are trying to compete there, and every startup -- I nearly joined Render.com as well. Every startup that's trying to pitch a second-layer cloud thesis is always working under the shadows of AWS. And this is the first real thesis that I've seen, that like "Oh, okay, you not only can credibly wrap around and benefit, you can actually come into your own as a fourth major cloud." So I'm gonna stop there... There's so many thoughts I have about Cloudflare.Jerod Santo: Yeah. So do you see that R2 then -- I think it's a brilliant move, as you described it... As I read your post, I started to appreciate, I think, the move, more than I did when I first read about it and I was like "Oh, they're just undercutting." But it seems they are doing more than just that. But do you think that this R2 then is a bit of a loss leader in order to just take a whole bunch of AWS customers, or do you think there's actually an economic -- is it economically viable as a standalone service, or do you think Cloudflare is using it to gain customers? What are your thoughts in their strategy of Why?Shawn Wang: This is the top question on Twitter and on Hacker News when they launch. They are going to make money on this thing, and the reason is because of all the peering agreements that they've established over the past five years. As part of the normal business strategy of Cloudflare, they have peering agreements with all of the ISPs; bandwidth is free for them. So... For them in a lot of cases. Again, I have to caveat all this constantly, because I should note to people that I am not a cloud or networking expert. I'm just learning in public, just like the rest of you, and here's what I have so far. So please, correct me if I'm wrong, and I'll learn from it.But yeah, I mean - straight on, it's not a loss leader. They plan to make money on it. And the reason they can is because they have worked so hard to make their cost structure completely different in AWS, and they've been a friend to all the other ISPs, rather than AWS consuming everything in its own world. Now you're starting to see the benefits of that strategy play out. And by the way, this is just storage, but also they have data store, also they have service compute, all following the same model.Jerod Santo: So what do you think is a more likely path over the next two years? Cloudflare --Adam Stacoviak: Prediction time!Jerod Santo: ...Cloudflare steals just massive swathes of AWS customers, or AWS slashes prices to compete?Shawn Wang: So I try not to do the prediction business, because I got out of that from the finance days... All I'm doing is nowcasting. I observe what I'm seeing now and I try to put out the clearest vision of it, so the others can follow.I think that it makes sense for them to be replicating the primitives of every other cloud service. So in 2017 they did service compute with Cloudflare Workers. In 2018 they did eventually consistent data store. In 2019 - website hosting; that's the Netlify competitor. In 2020 they did strongly-consistent data store, with Durable Objects. In 2021 object storage. What's next on that list? Go on to your AWS console and go shopping. And instead of seven different ways to do async messaging in AWS, probably they're gonna do one way in Cloudflare. [laughs]Adam Stacoviak: [48:34] A unified API, or something like that...Jerod Santo: Yeah, they'll just look at AWS' offerings, the ones they like the best, and do it that way, right?Shawn Wang: Yeah, just pick it up.Adam Stacoviak: Maybe the way to get a prediction out of you, swyx, might be rather than directly predict, maybe describe how you win Go.Shawn Wang: How you win Go...Adam Stacoviak: Yeah, what's the point of Go? How do you win Go? Because that might predict the hidden prediction, so to speak.Shawn Wang: Okay. For listeners who don't know Go, let me draw out the analogy as well. So most people are familiar with chess; individual chess pieces have different values and different points, and they must all support each other. Whenever you play chess, you need the Knight to support the pawns, something like that... Whereas in Go, you place your pieces everywhere, and they're all indistinguishable from each other. And it's more about claiming territory; at the end of the day, that's how you win Go, you claim the most territory compared to the others... And it's never a winner-take-all situation. Most likely, it's like a 60/40. You won 60% of the territory and your competitor has 40% of the territory. That's more likely a mapping of how cloud is gonna play out than chess, where winner-takes-all when you take the King. There's no King in the cloud, but--Jerod Santo: Are you sure...?Shawn Wang: ...there's a lot likely of territory claiming, and Cloudflare is really positioned very well for that. It's just part of the final realization that I had at the end of the blog post. And partially, how you take individual pieces of territory is that you surround all the pieces of the enemy and you place the final piece and you fill up all the gaps, such that the enemy is completely cut off from everything else and is surrounded. And that's what R2 does to S3 - it surrounds S3, and it's up to you to place that final piece. They call it, Atari, by the way, which is the name of the old gaming company, Atari. They have placed AWS S3 in Atari, and it's up to the customers to say "I'm gonna place that final piece. I'm gonna pay the cost of transferring all my data out of S3 and cut S3 off", and they cut off all the remaining liberties. So how do you win in Go? You claim the most amount of territory, and you surround the pieces of the enemy.Adam Stacoviak: Which, if you thought maybe that was oxygen, the territory, you might suck the oxygen away from them, so they can't live anymore, so to speak... And maybe you don't take it by killing it. Maybe you sort of suffocate it almost, if their space becomes small enough; if you take enough territory and it begins to shrink enough, it's kind of like checkmate, but not.Shawn Wang: Yeah. There's also a concept of sente in Go, which is that you make a move that the opponent has to respond to, which is kind of like a check, or checkmate -- actually, not; just the check, in chess. And right now, AWS doesn't feel the need to respond. Cloudflare is not big enough. Like, these are names to us, but let's just put things in numbers. Cloudflare's market cap is 36 billion, AWS' market cap is 1.6 trillion; this is Amazon's total market cap. Obviously, AWS is a subset of that.Jerod Santo: Sure.Shawn Wang: So your competitor is 40 times larger than you. Obviously, Cloudflare is incentivized to make a lot of noise and make themselves seem bigger than it is. But until AWS has to respond, this is not real.Adam Stacoviak: Nice.Jerod Santo: So as a developer, as a customer of potentially one or both of these... Let's say you have a whole bunch of stuff on S3 - I'm asking you personally now, swyx - and R2 becomes available... Is that a no-brainer for you, or is there any reason not to use that?Shawn Wang: You're just adding another vendor in your dependency tree. I think for anyone running silicon bandwidth, it is a no-brainer.Jerod Santo: Yeah. So over the course of n months, where n equals when they launch plus a certain number - I mean, I think this is gonna end up eventually on Amazon's radar, to where it's gonna start affecting some bottom lines that important people are gonna notice. So I just wonder - I mean, how much territory can Cloudflare grab before there's a counter-move? It's gonna be interesting to watch.Shawn Wang: [52:12] So Ben from Vantage actually did a cost analysis... Vantage is a startup that is made up former AWS Console people; they're trying to build a better developer experience on top of AWS. They actually did a cost analysis on the R2 move, and they said that there's probably a hundred billion dollars' worth of revenue at stake for Amazon. So if they start to have a significant dent in that, let's say like 40%, AWS will probably have to respond. But until then, there's nothing to worry about. That's literally how it is in Amazon; you have to see the numbers hit before you respond.Jerod Santo: Yeah. It hasn't even been a blip on the radar at this point, the key metrics to the people who are important enough to care are watching. You said you started watching all of these CDNs. Of course, you worked at Netlify... You take an interest in backends. There's something you mentioned in the break about frontenders versus backend, and where you've kind of been directing your career, why you're watching Cloudflare so closely, what you're up to now with your work... Do you wanna go there?Shawn Wang: Let's go there. So if you track my career, I started out as a frontend developer. I was developing design systems, I was working with Storybook, and React, and all that... Then at Netlify I was doing more serverless and CLI stuff. At AWS more storage and database and AppSync and GraphQL stuff... And now at Temporal I'm working on a workflow engine, pure backend. I just went to KubeCon two weeks ago...Jerod Santo: Nice!Shawn Wang: What is a frontend developer doing at KubeCon...?Adam Stacoviak: New territory.Shawn Wang: It's a frontend developer who realizes that there's a career ceiling for frontend developers. And it's not a polite conversation, and obviously there are exceptions to frontend developers who are VPs of engineering, frontend developers who are startup founders... And actually, by the way, there's a lot of VC funding coming from frontend developers, which is fantastic for all my friends. They're all getting funded, left, right and center. I feel left out. But there is a Career ceiling, in a sense that survey a hundred VPs of engineering, how many of them have backend backgrounds, and how many of them have frontend backgrounds? And given that choice, what's more likely for you and your long-term career progression? Do you want to specialize in frontend or do you want to specialize in backend? Different people have different interests, and I think that you can be successful in whatever discipline you pick. But for me, I've been moving towards the backend for that reason.Adam Stacoviak: Describe ceiling. What exactly do you mean when you say "ceiling"?Shawn Wang: Career ceiling. What's your terminal title.Jerod Santo: Like your highest role, or whatever. Highest salary, highest role, highest title...Adam Stacoviak: Gotcha.Shawn Wang: Like, straight up, how many VPs of engineering and CTOs have backend backgrounds versus frontend.Jerod Santo: Yeah. I mean, just anecdotally, I would agree with you that it's probably 8 or 9 out of 10 CTOs have -- is that what you said, 8 or 9?Shawn Wang: Yeah, yeah. So there's obviously an economic reasoning for this; it's because there's a bias in the industry that frontend is not real development, and backend is. And that has to be combated. But also, there's an economic reasoning, and I always go back to the economics part, because of my finance background... Which is that your value to the company, your value to the industry really depends on how many machines run through you. You as an individual unit of labor, how much money do you control, and how much machine process, or compute, or storage, or whatever runs through you. And just straight-up frontend doesn't take as much. [laughs] Yes, frontend is hard, yes, design is hard, yes, UX is crucially important, especially for consumer-facing products... But at the end of the day, your compute is being run on other people's machines, and people don't value that as much as the compute that I pay for, that I need to scale, and therefore I need an experienced leader to run that, and therefore that is the leader of my entire eng.Jerod Santo: I wonder if that changes at all for very product-focused orgs, where I think a lot of frontenders, the moves are into product design and architecture, and away from - not software architecture, but product design. And it seems like maybe if you compare - not VP of engineering, but VP of product, you'd see a lot of former frontenders.Shawn Wang: [56:03] Yeah.Jerod Santo: Maybe that's their path. Do you think that's --Shawn Wang: Totally. But you're no longer a frontend dev. You suddenly have to do mocks...Jerod Santo: Yeah, but when you're VP of engineering you're not a backend dev either.Shawn Wang: Yeah.Jerod Santo: So you're kind of both ascending to that degreeShawn Wang: Backends devs will never report to you, let's put it that way.Jerod Santo: Okay. Fair.Shawn Wang: [laughter] But somehow, frontend devs have to report to backend devs, for some reason; just because they're superior, or something. I don't know, it's just like an unspoken thing... It's a very impolite conversation, but hey, it's a reality, man.Jerod Santo: So do you see this personally, or do you see this by looking around?Shawn Wang: Yeah.Jerod Santo: Yeah. You felt like you had reached a ceiling.Shawn Wang: Well, again, this is very impolite; there's a ton of ways to succeed, and there are definitely exceptions. Emily Nakashima at Honeycomb - former frontend person, now VP of engineering. I don't know, I could have done that. I have interest in backend and I'm pursuing that. So I will say that - this is a soft ceiling, it's a permeable ceiling. It's not a hard ceiling.Jerod Santo: Sure.Shawn Wang: But there's a ceiling though, because you can see the numbers.Adam Stacoviak: What is it in particular the VP of engineering does that would make a frontender less likely to have that role? What specifically? I mean, engineering is one of the things, right? Commanding the software... Which is not necessarily frontend.Jerod Santo: Well, frontend is also an engineering discipline.Adam Stacoviak: I guess it kind of depends on the company, too. Honeycomb is probably a different example.Shawn Wang: I haven't been a VP of engineering, so I only have some theories. I suggest you just ask the next VP of engineering that you talk to, or CTO.Adam Stacoviak: Yeah.Jerod Santo: Yeah. That'd be a good one to start asking people.Adam Stacoviak: What do you do here? What is it you do here?Shawn Wang: What is it you do here?Jerod Santo: Exactly.Shawn Wang: [laughs]Adam Stacoviak: Well, I just wondered if there was a specific skillset that happens at that VP of engineering level that leads more towards a backender being more likely than a frontender to get hired into the role.Shawn Wang: I think there's some traditional baggage. Power structures persist for very long times... And for a long time UX and frontend was just not valued. And we're like maybe five years into the shift into that. It's just gonna take a long time.Jerod Santo: I agree with that. So tell us what you're up to now. You said you're doing workflows... I saw a quick lightning talk; you were talking about "React for the backend." So you're very much taking your frontend stuff into the backend here, with React for the backend. Tell us about that.Shawn Wang: Let's go for it. So at Netlify and at AWS I was essentially a developer advocate for serverless. So this is very cool - it does pay-as-you-go compute, and you can do a lot of cool stuff with it. But something that was always at the back of my mind bothering me, that serverless does not do well, is long-running jobs. It just does not do well. You have to chain together a bunch of stuff, and it's very brittle; you cannot test it... It's way more expensive than you would do in a normal environment.Jerod Santo: Yeah.Shawn Wang: And it made me realize that in this move to take apart everything and make everything as a service, we have gained scalability, but we've lost basically everything else. And what I was trying to do was "How do we reconstruct the experience of the monolith? What are the jobs to be done?" When you break it down, what does a computer do for you, and what is not adequately addressed by the ecosystem?I went through the exercise... I wrote a blog post called "Reconstructing the monolith, and I actually listed it out." So what are the jobs of cloud for a computer? You want static file serving, you want functions, you want gateway, you want socket management, job runners, queue, scheduler, cold storage, hot storage. There's meta jobs like error logging, usage logging, dashboarding, and then edge computing is like a unique to cloud thing. But everything else, you can kind of break it up and you can locate it on one machine, or you can locate it on multiple machines, some of them owned by you, some of them not owned by you.The thing that serverless -- that had a whole in the ecosystem was job running. Not good. Basically, as an AWS developer right now, the answer is you set a CloudWatch schedule function, and you pull an endpoint, and that should read some states from a database, and check through where you are, and compute until the 15-minute timeout for Lambda, and then save it back in, and then wait for the next pull, and start back up again. Super-brittle, and just a terrible experience; you would never want to go this way.[01:00:08.13] The AWS current response to that is AWS Step Functions, which is a JSON graph of what happens after the other, and this central orchestrator controls all of that. I think we could do better, and that's eventually what got me to temporal. So essentially, this blog post that I wrote - people found me through that, and hired both our head of product and myself from this single blog post. So it's probably the highest ROI blog post I've ever written.Jerod Santo: Wow. That's spectacular.Shawn Wang: It's just the VC that invested in Temporal. So what Temporal does is it helps you write long-running workflows in a doable fashion; every single state transition is persisted to a database, in idiomatic code. So idiomatic Java, idiomatic Go, idiomatic JavaScript, and PHP. This is different from other systems, because other systems force you to learn their language. For Amazon, you have to learn Amazon States Language. For Google Workflows - Google Workflows has a very long, very verbose JSON and YAML language as well.And these are all weird perversions of -- like, you wanna start simple; JSON is very simple, for doing boxes and arrows, and stuff like that... But you start ending up having to handwrite the AST of a general-purpose programming language, because you want variables, you want loops, you want branching, you want all that god stuff. And the best way to model asynchronous and dynamic business logic is with a general-purpose programming language, and that's our strong opinion there.So Temporal was created at Uber; it runs over 300 use cases at Uber, including driver onboarding, and marketing, and some of the trips stuff as well. It was open source, and adopted at Airbnb, and Stripe, and Netflix, and we have all those case studies on -- DoorDash as well, by the way, runs on the Uber version of Temporal.Jerod Santo: There you go, Adam.Shawn Wang: And yeah, they spun out to a company two years ago, and we're now trying to make it as an independent cloud company. And again, the

Memories With A Beat
All I Want for Christmas is You with Maggie Olson

Memories With A Beat

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 3, 2021 16:32


The most popular Christmas song of all times is the one my guest Maggie Olson picked..."All I Want for Christmas is You!"  When Maggie hears this song she remembers being very pregnant and singing this to her baby.  Four years ago, Maggie really prayed that on Christmas day she would NOT still be pregnant!  Baby Maeda was born on the 14th and Maggie's wish came true.  This song has a double meaning for Maggie.  Christmas is not about the presents for Maggie, it's about being with the people she loves..."I don't need a lot for Christmas.  There is just one thing I need.  I don't care about the presents underneath the Christmas tree.  I just want you for my own..." Did you sing along just now?  Gotcha!   Full Show Notes

Franchise Findings | Buying a Franchise Made Simple
Gotcha Covered Franchise Interview with Paul Linenberg | Importance of High Customer Ratings

Franchise Findings | Buying a Franchise Made Simple

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2021 28:13


Don't miss this exclusive interview with Paul Linenberg, who is the President of Gotcha Covered.  Paul will talk all about the franchise system, what plans they have for the future, and what is the ideal franchisee for their system.   You can learn more here: https://www.vettedbiz.com/listing/gotcha-covered/  Want to speak with a franchise specialist about Gotcha Covered or another franchise? Click here: https://share.hsforms.com/1ZtNM19w4R8WIXyNa_97N7w4e0xw If you are looking for more information, you can connect with us through our networks: https://www.vettedbiz.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/vettedbiz/ https://www.facebook.com/vettedbiz

Create Art Podcast
WRITING/PODCASTING A NOVEL IN 30 DAYS NOV 25

Create Art Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 26, 2021 14:38


National Novel Writing and Podcast Posting Month 2021 Welcome friend to Create Art Podcast where I help you tame your inner critic and create more than we consume. I am Timothy Kimo Brien your thankful head instigator with over 20 years in arts and education. How I accomplish this is by providing you with commentary, interviews, discussions, and projects that will inspire you to create art. This month I will be podcasting daily and writing a novel in 30 days. I am participating in NaPodPoMo and NaNoWriMo again this year as I did last year and you can hear those episodes here. You will be able to listen and read along to what I wrote for the day. I like to practice what I preach when it comes to art so I am challenging myself to write and having you come along for the ride. It is my hope this inspires you to accomplish your goals with your art and if you would like to share what you are doing email me at timothy@createartpodcast.com History of NaNoWriMo and NaPodPoMo NaNoWriMo: National Novel Writing Month began in 1999 as a daunting but straightforward challenge: to write 50,000 words of a novel in thirty days. Now, each year on November 1, hundreds of thousands of people around the world begin to write, determined to end the month with 50,000 words of a brand new novel. They enter the month as elementary school teachers, mechanics, or stay-at-home parents. They leave novelists. NaPodPoMo: NaPodPoMo* is a month-long event along the same vein as National Novel Writing Month aka NaNoWriMo. The difference? Well, instead of writing a 50,000-word novel, you podcast every day for 30 days from November 1st-30th. Use any platform you desire. From full production studio to iPhone app and just about anything in between. The goal is to use the challenge of podcasting daily as a form of podcasting boot camp. The Writing So Far 25 Nov 2021    daily count 1787 cumulative count 37059  Carl helped Cheryl up to her feet and led her to the bedroom where they climbed into bed together. The coffee didn't affect Carl like everyone said it would, he had a weird constitution where he could drink coffee at any time of day and still fall asleep, although it was not a refreshing sleep. Cheryl almost immediately dozed off and Carl soon followed her into slumber.   There was a light knocking at the bedroom door and Cheryl looked over at the clock which read eight o'clock. The sun was trying to stream through the blinds through the window and it made shadows on the opposite wall. Cheryl whispered, “give us a couple of minutes sweet girl.” Carl was still in a deep and fitful sleep and Cheryl quietly got up and went to the bathroom to get herself ready for the day. She wanted Carl to get some good sleep since he had had a long night. When she was done in the bathroom, she looked over at Carl who was looking at her with almost closed eyes. “Go back to sleep superman,” she said to Carl.   “Never really liked Superman, I am more of a Batman guy, oh and no Beatles just Rolling Stones,” joked Carl as he was stretching.   “You are just full of surprises aren't you. I bet you plan on getting up and running around today or going to work huh,” asked Cheryl?  “Nope, I already called off work today. I am just waiting to hear from Nate and Carmine. I do need a shower though, mind if I slip into it first,” asked Carl?  “I think you earned it, we can talk about what happened last night after breakfast, what do you want,” asked Cheryl?  “I am not fussy at all, coffee, maybe some oatmeal,” replied Carl.   “Good, I think we can manage that, hop in the shower, although I think you should take a break today,” scolded Cheryl. She left the bedroom and Myra was right outside the door waiting for her.  “Is he okay,” asked Myra?  “He had a long night after we put you back to bed, what would you like to make for breakfast,” asked Cheryl. The girls headed off to the kitchen and Carl slowly got out of bed. He went to the shower and turned it on full blast. Carl liked hot showers where the water almost scalded him. When he disrobed, he felt that funny feeling of confusion as he had in the past, just before he had an episode. Carl didn't want to pass out in the shower and end up in the hospital. This time he would try to fight the episode as much as he could and have a normal day. He got into the shower and started to grit his teeth and march while the hot water sprayed all over his body. He was feeling invigorated and tired at the same time. Forcing his eyes open by sheer will he finished his shower and stepped out onto the bathroom floor after turning off the facet. Carl felt good that he was able to fight off the episode this time and noted how he was able to do it. Obviously, he wouldn't be able to do this every time, but at least this time he had won a battle.  When Carl smelled the familiar scent of coffee, that was almost as invigorating as the shower. He finished getting dressed and picked up his phone to check for messages. Nothing had come through yet, so he called over to Nate's house to check in on the kids. On the third ring Rachel answered.  “Hey Uncle Carl, we are doing fine here,” said Rachel in a cheerful voice.  “Good to hear, have you two had breakfast yet,” asked Carl?  “We just finished up. We haven't heard anything from Mom and Dad yet, starting to get worried,” replied Rachel.   “Well, we are going to head over there and hang out with you two. I took the day off work and if your dad ends up needing a hand I want to be there to help,” said Carl.   “Thanks, and I remember what we talked about last night, about being Myra's friend. I am sorry I called her weird. It must be really hard on her,” replied Rachel.   “Yeah, it is but she is holding up like a champ. Give us about an hour and a half and we will be over. Do you guys need me to bring you lunch,” asked Carl?  “Well, we have plenty of food here, but if you want to bring us lunch that's fine. Seth it's Uncle Carl, he is coming over in about two hours go get your room cleaned up. Sorry Seth is acting like I am a substitute teacher and doesn't want to do our normal chores,” said Rachel perturbed.   “Let me talk to Seth,” said Carl. “Hey Seth, your sister is in charge until I get there and if I see that your room is not made up and your chores aren't done then young man you will be in trouble with me and we won't go driving, understand?”  “Yes, Uncle Carl, sheesh, you are as bad as dad,” said Seth sheepishly.   “Hey Seth, I understand, I am the youngest in my family and there were times when my brothers had to look after me while my parents were out of the house doing something. It can be frustrating and it may seem like your sister is being bossy, but remember she is trying her best to make sure nothing happens to you and she is under a lot of stress. Try to help her out as much as possible okay. I know you can alright big guy,” asked Carl?  “Okay Uncle Carl. Are you bringing Cheryl and Myra over too,” asked Seth?  “Yup, the whole crew, and Cheryl is a stickler for getting chores done so do us both a favor,” said Carl.  “Can do Uncle Carl, see you in a few hours,” said Seth.   “Okay, see you then put your sister back on the phone,” asked Carl.  “Thanks for the help with Seth Uncle Carl. You know Mom doesn't want him to go driving with you in that Suzuki Samurai,” said Rachel.  “And I didn't tell him I would take him driving in that car, I am going to call your mom now and see what is going on. You call me if there are any issues okay,” said Carl.   “Gotcha big boss man,” said Rachel. That was her special name for her uncle.   “See you soon my cuddly kazoo,” said Carl as he ended the call. He walked out to the kitchen and there was coffee and oatmeal already set up for him as Cheryl and Myra were finishing up making their breakfast of cheese omelets and chocolate milk for Myra and tea for Cheryl.   “I need to make one call before I sit down to eat, do you mind,” asked Carl?  “Handle your business, we are just sitting down to eat,” replied Cheryl.   “Anyone interested in a trip to Uncle Nate's house and hanging out with Seth and Rachel,” asked Carl?  “Oooo I'd like that a lot,” squealed Myra.  “I wouldn't mind going out there again is Nate is up to it,” said Cheryl.   “That's what I am going to look into. I need to drop off lunch for Seth and Rachel and make sure they are okay, and I figured I could use some help from two of the best people I know,” said Carl. “He dialed up Carmine's number on his phone, after three rings she answered.  “Hey Carl, I just got off the phone with Rachel and she said you all were heading over to drop off lunch and hang out,” said Carmine.   “Yeah, I didn't get in until about four this morning, but I wanted to make sure the kids were all right and I have the best people in the world to give me a hand with that, how's Nate holding up this morning,” asked Carl?  “We had a quiet night, they looked at the MRI's and didn't find anything out of the ordinary, you could probably read the scans better than anyone else and understand what all this stuff means. We should be getting out of here in about two hours. Nate is more upset because he has lost some time on this project of yours. Also, did you know Vince was admitted to the same hospital last night in the evening and is being released with no issues,” asked Carmine?  “I heard about it from a clerk at the gas station on the way to your house. I also talked with the cop that was on the call for Vince,” said Carl.  “Talked to a cop, what happened,” asked Carmine?  “I pulled to the side of the road to get some fresh air and the cop pulled up behind me, we started talking and well, luckily he knew about Vince so that mystery was solved. Have you heard from Angela,” asked Carl?  “Well, she lives in the next county over, but I did check the hospital here and she wasn't admitted last night,” replied Carmine.   “I'll check the hospital over there, so Nate is doing okay,” asked Carl?  “Yes, little brother he is doing fine, like I said he is just ornery as usual. Other people controlling his choices, you know how much he loves that,” replied Carmine.   “About as much as I enjoy it. Okay we will see you in a few hours, we are just eating breakfast now and we will head out and grab lunch for everyone,” said Carl.   “Thanks for checking in on he kids last night. Rachel said she really appreciated it and Seth looks up to you. Just get this project done quickly, I don't want to have another night like this again,” said Carmine.  “Neither do I, neither do I,” replied Carl. He sat down after he ended the call an ate his oatmeal and drank the black coffee.   “What's on your mind,” asked Cheryl?  “Angela hasn't checked in yet,” replied Carl.  Cheryl looked at her phone after he said that “Wait, I got a text from Angela, let me read it. Must have just came in. Says she is getting out of the hospital now, was admitted yesterday, docs found nothing wrong, wants to meet with us as soon as possible, hasn't been able to reach Nate. I'll message her back and let her know. This is very strange that all three of them were in the hospital last …,” Cheryl said trailing off.   Cheryl and Carl looked at Myra and then looked at each other.   Reaching Out To reach out to me, email timothy@createartpodcast.com I would love to hear about your journey and what you are working on. If you would like to be on the show or have me discuss a topic that is giving you trouble write in and lets start that conversation. Email: timothy@createartpodcast.com IG: @createartpodcast Twitter: @createartpod Mighty Networks: Create Art Podcast

Powerful Panels
How Panelists can Respond to Pesky "Gotcha" Questions

Powerful Panels

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 24, 2021 7:04


As an expert panelist or during any other interview, you can proactively prepare for cage-rattling questions, recognize the gotcha question, and reframe your response so that you can come out looking like a champ!

Keys For Kids Ministries

Bible Reading: 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 14-16"Hey, Kwan, how are you at math?" asked his sister Nari. "Got an A on my report card," Kwan answered with a smile."Then let's see if you can figure out this riddle. Listen carefully, okay? A bus with ten people on it stopped and picked up five more. After going two blocks, it let off three people and picked up four. After going another block, it let off four passengers. It made one more stop and picked up two people." Nari grinned. "Now tell mehow many times did the bus stop?""Fourteen!" Kwan shouted. Then his triumphant grin faded as he realized he had been fooled. "Hey! I thought you were going to ask how many people were on the bus at the end. I was keeping track of that in my head, but I don't remember how many times the bus stopped."Nari laughed. "Gotcha!" Mom grinned. "I have a riddle for both of you. Remember Pastor Green's sermon at church last week?" Kwan nodded. "He said many people believe a loving God would never send anyone to hell." "They say God loves everyone just as they are and that's all that matters," Nari added."Well, the riddle isin what way are those people like Kwan?" asked Mom.Nari thought it over. "Kwan only heard the numbers he was listening for. He didn't pay attention to the rest of the story.""Right," Mom said. "And people who say God won't punish sin are not paying attention to everything the Bible says. They're just hearing what they want to hear--picking out the parts of the Bible they like and ignoring everything else. It's true that God loves everyone just as they are, but the Bible also says that our sin separates us from God. That's why He sent His Son, Jesus, to take the punishment for our sin on the cross. He loves us so much He made a way for us to have eternal life with Him--and He helps us turn away from sin in our lives now." "So it's not enough to say God loves us. We must take Him up on His offer to save us from sin," Kwan observed. "Right," said Mom. "To truly know God's love for us, we need to trust in Jesus." -Charles VanderMeerHow About You?Do you pay attention to everything God says in His Word--or do you pick out only what you want to hear? Don't be fooled by those who claim there's no such thing as sin and that we can live however we want because God loves us. The Bible says God sent Jesus to rescue us from sin--that's how much He loves us. Listen to the whole truth of God's Word and put your trust in Jesus. (To learn more, click the "Good News!" button in the right column.) Today's Key Verse:All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. (NLT) (2 Timothy 3:16)Today's Key Thought:Pay attention to all of God's Word

Fallacious Trump
Gotcha Argument - FT#87

Fallacious Trump

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 16, 2021 84:27


In the eighty-seventh episode we explore the Gotcha Argument, starting with Trump revealing how unprepared he was to answer foreign policy questions as a candidate, and failing to clarify Jared Kushner's statement on the Strategic National Stockpile.In Mark's British Politics Corner we look at Matt Hancock refusing to answer a question he didn't like, and Boris Johnson waffling an answer about refurbishing his apartment.In the Fallacy in the Wild section, we check out examples from Game Change, Veep, and Parks and Recreation.Jim and Mark go head to head in Fake News, the game in which Mark has to guess which of three Trump quotes Jim made up.Then we talk about the maybe not all that bad implications of the Democrat's recent election losses.And finally, we round up some of the other crazy Trump stories from the past week.The full show notes for this episode can be found at https://fallacioustrump.com/ft87 You can contact the guys at pod@fallacioustrump.com, on Twitter @FallaciousTrump, or facebook at facebook.com/groups/fallacioustrumpAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies
Why Becoming the Agency CEO is a Marathon, Not a Sprint

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 14, 2021 20:32


Are you looking to start your transition to the role of agency CEO? David Anderson started living the entrepreneurial dream more than twenty years ago when he started Off Madison Ave, a full-service marketing agency he founded with his partner after getting fired from his agency job. After two decades as a business owner, David has experienced success and failure. Having learned from many successes and the hard knocks of business and life. In his conversation with Jason, he talks about the many challenges and mistakes that helped him learn, why taking a step back from day-to-day operations is a marathon, not a sprint, the importance of building your leadership team and letting them make their own mistakes, and what he has learned after many agency acquisitions. 3 Golden Nuggets Taking a step back is a process. After many years in the business and finally being able to take a step back to being his agency's CEO, David admits that he made many mistakes along the way. The first time, he recalls, he hired someone from the outside and did not have a solid onboarding process for that person. That fell apart quickly and they even ended up losing clients. Later, he had a leadership team implement EOS, which he highly recommends, but he chose not to be the innovator and integrator. It fell apart and he had to step in to fix the situation. Finally, he brought somebody up through the ranks, worked on a transition plan, clearly defined authority, and is holding that person accountable. “It's a process,” he says, “and you will have your failures in it.” Allow leaders to learn from mistakes. David has figured out a leadership team system that works for his agency. There were mistakes along the way, however. One of them was tying the head of the team's financial bonus to their financial income. He later changed that and now their bonuses are tied to the overall performance of the agency, not of an individual. Also, what business owners need to do is let go as they bring on those senior people. You don't hire senior people and micromanage. They don't want to be told what to do. With that, you also have to accept that there will be failures and things that don't work. If you want to grow your team, you need to let them make mistakes. On mergers and acquisitions. With 24 years in the business, our guest has seen his fair share of acquisitions. So, what does he look for in a potential purchase? In their case, as a full-service agency, they look for businesses that can complement their services. So they've purchased agencies that allow them to gain a deeper focus on some aspect of the business. On the financial side, they are definitely looking at the EBITDA. He's also made some mistakes on this front, and his advice is that, when it comes to people who will help you evaluate a potential acquisitions organization, they need to understand the industry. The person selling won't mind if you're uneducated, but you will surely overpay. Sponsors and Resources Sharpspring: Today's episode is sponsored by Sharpspring, an all-in-one revenue growth platform that provides all of the marketing automation, CRM, & sales features you need to support your entire customer lifecycle. Partner with an affordable marketing automation provider that you can trust. Head over to sharpspring.com/smartagency to enjoy an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio | Stitcher | Radio FM Building Your Leadership Team & Letting Go of Day-to-Day Operations is a Marathon, Not a Sprint Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swenk here with another amazing episode and amazing guest. We're going to talk to an eight-figure agency owner who's going to talk about how he really kind of transitioned out of really doing everything and transitioned more to a leadership role where he doesn't have to make all the decisions, which I think a lot of us like. We're also going to talk about M&A, growth, getting bigger, so sit back and let's get into the episode. Hey, David. Welcome to the show. David: [00:00:35] Hey, Jason. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it. Jason: [00:00:38] Yeah. Excited to have you on. So tell us who you are and what do you do? David: [00:00:42] All right. So Dave Anderson, I live here in sunny Arizona, where it's still a hundred plus degrees here, today when we're recording this anyway. I am in Arizona. I have been an agency owner for about 23, 24 years now and worked at another agency for a good three years before that. The name of the agency is Off Madison Ave. We are a full service, kind of going back to the old terms, full-service agency that does everything from creative media, public relations, social media, digital. All of the kind of stuff that we've had. We're about 35 full-time people but our business model is really evolved to where we're with a plethora of great talent out there now of how we're using a real combination of full-time people and people with specific skill sets to do our diverse client work every day. Jason: [00:01:41] And so tell me kind of how did you guys get started or why did you start? David: [00:01:45] Ah, that's a great question. So I have one business partner. Roger Hernie, a great friend of mine. So we were both working… Jason: [00:01:52] Still, still business partner? David: [00:01:53] Still business partners, 23, 24 years in October years later, still business partners. And I can, I can give some insights if you like, why I think that has worked overtime. But we were both working at the same agency. And to be honest with you, I got fired one day. First time I'd ever been fired in my life from a job. Um, my wife and I were one month pregnant with our first child on the way. I still remember going and telling her and picking her up at work. And she said, how'd the day go? And I said, well, they got fired today. That'll stress out your wife in any situation. Jason: [00:02:26] Was it Friday? David: [00:02:27] Uh, it was Monday. I started the week off the right way for her. So… Jason: [00:02:33] I've always been fired on Fridays. David: [00:02:35] Yeah, no, this was a Monday. And it's a story that needs to be told over alcohol. The agency kind of turned into, um, the culture was bad and the CEO asked me one day why it was bad. And I told him my honest opinion and I didn't last long after that. So I come from the PR side of things. Background in politics, PR. My business partner worked for McCann Erickson, he is the creative guy. And we just working together, saw the value… Again, I'm an old guy way back then were PR and creative, but didn't really work well together, they were more siloed. And we really wanted to bring that together to bring a total marketing picture. So yeah, 23 years later, we've done three small acquisitions over the years to help us grow. And like every one of you, we've had our best of days on our absolutely worst of days. Um, I'm a lot grayer now, but you know, we've survived. Jason: [00:03:32] Very cool. And, um, tell me what's been the process…? How long did it take you? Or if you kind of remember some of the key elements or key things that happen to get to a point where you don't have to be in the day-to-day operations anymore. David: [00:03:50] Yeah. It's a great question. And I'm going to be honest with you. I severely messed it up two times before I got it right. And it's a thing that I work with kind of both other business owners now, and agency owners. The process of working on the business every day, not in the business. And then ultimately be able to move where I am now today, where I don't really have any day-to-day role in the company. I'm still involved from a financial side. If we do an acquisition, like we did last November, I'm very involved. Um, but I work directly with our GM. So the first time I messed it up, I hired a person from the outside who supposedly had a lot of agency experience, bigger agency actually. And after going through the process, what I did horribly wrong was I didn't have a solid onboarding process for the new person that was coming on. Honestly, I kind of said, this person's hired, he starts on Monday. And by Monday afternoon I was like, good luck! You know? And within six months, we've lost clients. Most hurtful was I lost, I think, three of our top-five leadership team members because of that person's leadership style, how they were doing. Just a bad, bad time. So I had to come back in and fix that. The second time, I had a leadership team and we implemented EOS to be honest with you, which I'm a big fan of. But I chose not to be the visionary or the integrator and I left it to our executive team and the partners that were involved in the business. And that went really bad too, because when you kind of pick the integrator to lead, the other people didn't agree. There was no solid decision-making. There was not clear definition on when to bring it to the owners or me as the owner of decisions. And, again, it completely fell apart and I stepped back into fix it again. Now this time, I think I have finally gotten it right where we brought somebody up through the ranks, worked on a transition plan, clearly defined authority. I am holding that person accountable. The biggest thing where I failed was lack of accountability as I kind of turned the day-to-day operations over to others. Now there's a level of accountability. I still am very involved at times on the EOS part of it on our rocks and making sure where we are. And we are more than a year into it now and the person who runs the bay, they, her name is Sasha has done a fantastic job. The agency is growing. Our clients are happy. Our culture has improved. So what I would say is it's a process. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and you will have your failures in it. Jason: [00:06:47] Is your agency struggling to deliver real revenue growth results to your clients? You know, agency marketers can consolidate data and align marketing and sales teams goals to achieve real results for your agency and clients using revenue growth platforms. SharpSpring is an all-in-one platform built for agencies like yours to optimize digital marketing strategies with simple, powerful automation. Manage your entire funnel all in SharpSpring. Now for a limited time, my smart agency listeners will receive your first month free and half off onboarding with SharpSpring. Just visit sharpspring.com/smartagency to schedule your demo and grab this offer. That's sharpspring.com/smartagency. Now I've seen it all kinds of different ways where… There's two ways I've seen it work out well. One is to bring in… One of the first guests actually brought in someone as a consultant to work with the team and to really kind of get to know them. And then eventually they hired that person as the CEO and it was kind of like, oh, well, you're part of us. You've been working with us for six months. That kind of stuff. I've seen that work. And it's a good test. And then I've also seen kind of going through the ranks. But a lot of times what people struggle with is if you don't have people through the ranks, what do you do? And that's why I wanted to kind of give you option number one, that I've seen work. I've also seen it not work where they brought in someone temporarily, and then it doesn't work, but that's fine. They're not the CEO yet. You're testing out the waters and then you can kind of go… Let's talk about a lot of times when agency owners get over the couple of million mark, right? Like you can get to the million mark by accident, I feel. And then you can kind of get to the 2 million mark by accident and a lot of luck. But then to really kind of take it up from there, you have to build out a really good leadership team. So let's talk about how did you build out your leadership team? Like not particular names, but what were their roles? What did you learn from that? Like, what did you… what didn't work? David: [00:09:05] Yeah, so great question. And again, I feel we're in a good spot now, but lots of mistakes along the way. So how we do it, we call them group heads in our organization and we put people at the lead of like our account service team, our creative team, our PR team, and our media team and creative team. So we put a person at the head of all of them, and then I made them the leadership team that they were the ones to work collectively. Um, you know, we're not big enough to, and never have been. And I, quite frankly, I don't think I agree with having people that are just managers and not… So they're working directors is what we call them. They were directors that head of their group, group heads. But they were the ones who were responsible for making sure we weren't siloed and the workflow and functioning like that. And that has worked very well with us. But as agency owners know, actually any CEO leadership knows… The challenge there is managing the personalities, the issues, the finances. You know, one of the biggest mistakes I made was tying my group head's compensation to the financial bonus to their financial income. And then it was a question of how much money do I get? Because I get to put more in my pocket on that. And so what I did was their, and still is, their compensation of bonuses and stuff like that is based on the overall performance of the agency, not of an individual. Otherwise, you'll always have people looking out for their own personal wellbeing that they go through. So it's really that… Now also as a business owner, agency owner, what you need to do, two things is one is you need to let go as you bring on those senior people. You don't hire senior people and micromanage. They don't want to come in and be told what to do, but you as an owner have to relinquish that. And with that, you have to accept, there's going to be failure. There's going to be things that don't work. These are how people learn. And we as owners, when the first time something goes wrong, we jump back in to save the day and tell everybody else what they did wrong. And believe me, I, you know, if you can see me, I've lots of gray hair. This is how I got to that point. But I think, and I've seen, you know, in entrepreneurs, business people as general, we hate to fail we're as competitive. But I believe if you really want to grow your team and you have to let them fail, just like our kids, you know, you have to learn lessons the hard way. So I hope that's helpful. Jason: [00:11:39] Yep. What was your first leadership role that you hired and second and third? David: [00:11:44] I still remember that when it was Roger and I. Well, the first full leadership role that I hired was in our media group because it was the area that we were most knowledgeable in. Roger being a creative guy, me being a PR person. So we brought that media expertise and was one of the very first things. Jason: [00:12:06] Gotcha. And why the media role if you guys had expertise in it? David: [00:12:11] Well, we really didn't. We were faking it. We were using a lot of outsiders to do the work for us. And when we got to a certain point in billings of media, we realized that we needed that expertise of not only just for placing and all of that, but the analytics behind it. And that's where we really needed the expertise. That's why we started there. Jason: [00:12:35] Gotcha. I always like to see when, uh, when people are like, well, so many people hire based on things that they don't know. And I'm like, I think the best thing is, is like hiring on the things, you know. Cause then you can actually, you know, are they full of shit or not, you know? Going there. Kind of switching focus a little bit… This focuses on growth, mergers and acquisitions and buying agencies. You know, with our agency Republics, that's how we've been able to grow, we've done 10 acquisitions so far in the past year and a half, and just had tremendous growth. So, and you've said you've done some MNA as well. So what do you look for? What's worked what hasn't worked when you bought agencies? David: [00:13:21] Yeah, that's a great question. Our philosophy right now is to find things that complement the services. We aren't necessarily looking for another full-service agency. That's going to come in with creative teams, PR teams, all of that. Like the acquisition we did, um, in November of last year was a PR agency based out of San Francisco. And we wanted to really bolster our PR capabilities. It was also a step in over 20 something years and probably something I would do different, maybe do different is… We've always been more of a generalist agency. We've had some core areas of focus and we really want to move to a much deeper focus in two areas specifically. And this was a great way to bring in a book of clients that fit into that area where we want to be more specific. So I would say is, you know, an M&A there's two types: financial, which you're just adding revenue dollars, and they're strategic. And we're looking more strategic with the one we just did. The one before that allowed us to get deeper into technology. How do we use technology more in our marketing? As a result of that, we've also started another startup, um, a SAS-based product in the marketing space that we've also done that. And if I go way back to the early two-thousands, we were a very traditional agency and we didn't have the digital capabilities that the whole marketing world was going to. And we made an acquisition to get us really deep into that space also. So they've almost all been very strategic for us. Jason: [00:15:05] Awesome. And when you're looking at buying an agency or when you bought these agencies, is it a roll up? Is it cash? How are you evaluating them? David: [00:15:18] Yeah. You know, we do the typical valuations stuff that we have. And I'm sure you've seen more than once or twice that people in their minds have a much greater valuation for their agency than what the numbers… I can tell by your face you've seen that a couple of times. And I've had, you know, while we've done four acquisitions, I've probably had 20 where we got to a serious conversation that we do. So we really look at the numbers. I'm actually a finance major coming out of school. But then you also have to take the intangibles into it. So it's always, usually a combination of some upfront money earn out that, you know, goes with it from there. Jason: [00:16:01] How do you evaluate how much they're worth? Is it on EBITDA? Is it on top line? What are some of the factors that you put in there? David: [00:16:08] More EBITDA. More is EBITDA. And then, you know, you play the whole add back game of what to, you know, really kind of goes to… From my country club membership, to my Ferrari, to my vacation home in there to get to where, it's a game. I mean, you know, as well as I do, it's a game. What I would tell… and I'm sure you've had similar experiences use people who can help evaluate a potential acquisitions organization who understands our industry. One of the big mistakes I made on the first acquisition that we did is I used my regular attorney who knew nothing about the marketing industry. I overpaid without a doubt because of that, the, you know, you know what you're doing. Because it does, it does become a game with add backs and you know… How owners are willing to structure their compensation. Jason: [00:17:04] Well, if you're selling you don't mind, if the person buying you is uneducated. Make sure you tell us that lawyer so all the sellers can use that versus David: [00:17:14] Yeah, I totally agree with you. The other thing, I had this happen once as we went through a whole valuation. We were moving forward and then it came back and I had this owner. It was a PR agency said… I think the valuation of their company came back and like 1.5 million, something like that. You know, pretty small agency. And the agency said, well, just our contacts are worth a million dollars alone. Who we know in the media is worth just a million dollars alone. So I would never sell for less than $4 million. And I was like, well, I guess we won't be moving forward. Jason: [00:17:47] Yeah. I always like to tell that person I'm like, well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other, it gets filled up first. David: [00:17:53] I love that. I'm going to steal that if that's okay. Cause that's very well said. Jason: [00:17:58] Yeah, Well, I stole that from cousin Eddie on Vegas Vacation. David: [00:18:04] Love it. Absolutely love it. Jason: [00:18:06] Well, this has all been great, David, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience? David: [00:18:11] No. Well, a couple things. One is, you know, as agency owners and entrepreneurs, make sure you have a great network around you of advisers is what I would say. Find like-minded… I'm a member of EO Entrepreneurs Organization. It's, you know, provides the CEO forum. Vistage. I was part of Vistage. Get people around you who know more than you, have more experiences that you, that you can experience share. Because that's how we learn and grow. And that's what we do best. I would also say, do whatever you have to do to work on the business every day, not in the business. And I fully understand when you're a smaller agency crossing that first million-dollar mark, $2 million mark, and you're finally making good money. And then the thought of hiring a six-digit leader, a six-figure income. Oh my gosh, that's going to set me back again. That's how you grow, you know, and it's just what you need to do um… If you want a growth the company. If you want a lifestyle company then, you know, that's perfect. And neither one is right or wrong. It's just, you have to marry it up with what you want to do. And the whole process I went through of getting out of the day-to-day, it's absolutely a marathon. It's not a sprint. I would say you need at least 18 months to plan properly for that. That's just my experience to do it in the right way. Jason: [00:19:36] Awesome. And, uh, what's uh, the agency website people go and check you guys out? David: [00:19:40] Uh, Off Madison Ave. A V E, not avenue. So offmadisonave.com. Jason: [00:19:46] Awesome. Well, thanks so much, David, for coming on the show. It was awesome. And I totally agree with you on surrounding yourself with amazing people that are further ahead, so they can actually help you and see the things… And kind of setting me up for that, that was perfect. I want to invite all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind just for experienced agency owners. So I understand that there's other groups out there that have all kinds of different industries. But if you want to be surrounded by amazing agency owners on a consistent basis, I want all of you to go to digitalagencyelite.com. And until next time have a Swenk day.

l8nightwithchoccy's podcast
A conversation with Eric "EEEE DEEE" Diamond

l8nightwithchoccy's podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 12, 2021 122:12


Our guest this week has deep roots in Dana Point. He was trading tee shirt graphics for checks from marquee surf brands while he was still in high school. He flirted with pro-surfing, but with a background in fine arts and design, he had other opportunities to consider. Having early success and passion for design, he was quickly snatched up by Gotcha. Over the last 30 years he spent the majority of career designing iconic boardshorts prints and graphics for Quiksilver and Billabong. He created the Cosmic Creek Surf Contest and started the Dana Point Surf Club. He is now back to his roots, creating, designing, freelancing he services and focuses a lot of his time giving back to the community. We welcome to the show….. Eric “ED” Diamond. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We Are! (Watching One Piece)
Episode 73: Operation Protect Luffy

We Are! (Watching One Piece)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 12, 2021 87:34


Gotcha for 10 minutes... 10 minutes... of playyytimeeee This episode came out early for our Patrons! Thank you for supporting on Patreon! We Are! On Twitter: @wearewatchingOP @noimjory @ghostofjo

The Feldman Report
The Feldman Report - Student Loan update and social media gotcha's

The Feldman Report

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2021 1:03


WWJ's Murray Feldman - Student Loan update and social media gotcha's See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Jim Hightower's Radio Lowdown
Repair Your Own Products? Corporations Say No!

Jim Hightower's Radio Lowdown

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 9, 2021 2:09


America's economic and political inequality has led workaday Americans to exclaim: “The system is broken. Let's fix it!” But there's another version of this protest that I'm hearing more frequently these days: “The system is fixed. Let's break it!” That certainly applies to such rigged systems as money in politics and voter suppression, but it's also relevant to seemingly mundane matters that restrain our personal freedoms. One of the insidious “fixes” we need to break is the claim by brand-name corporations that we consumers must be banned by law from repairing the products they sell to us! The weak battery in your cell phone, the fuel sensor in a farmer's tractor, some gizmo in the toaster you bought, a fuse in your business' delivery truck – you could fix all of these yourself or, with little hassle, take the problem to a local repair shop. But, no, such manufacturing powerhouses as Apple, John Deere, and Panasonic assert that only their corporate technicians are authorized to open the product – which you own! – to make it work again. So, you are expected to deliver it to their distant facility, wait however-many days or weeks they tell you, and pay an inflated price. They've literally fixed the “fix” for consumer products. They impose their control by making the products as needlessly complicated as possible, then claiming that the complexity is their patented proprietary product. Thus, they say they don't have to provide repair manuals or sell repair tools to consumers or independent shops. Gotcha. To give their closed profiteering system the force of law, the giants have deployed armies of lobbyists and lawyers to legislatures and courts, arguing that self-repair people really are scoundrels trying to circumvent safety and environmental rules. This is Jim Hightower saying... For information and action, go to the US Public Interest Research Group: USpirg.org.

Williston Church of God
Pt 1Where is God Pt 2 I've Gotcha

Williston Church of God

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2021 62:06


Coffee with the Sarlos
Gotcha (EP 332)

Coffee with the Sarlos

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 6, 2021 36:16


Mi-cha is in for some hard truths and she's not yet ready to drop the games that have been allowing her to avoid her own reality. Well, the guides are saying, Gotcha! If you have questions or comments about today's show you can email Karen and Kelly at info@bysarlo.com. Enjoy! Early access to Coffee with the Sarlos is available by audio on Thursday mornings on Patreon.com/bysarlo in our "Instant Coffee" tier or higher. Listen to the full episode on your favourite podcast platform and be sure to Subscribe to Coffee with the Sarlos! WATCH Coffee with the Sarlos by subscribing to our YouTube channel!

TeamClearCoat - An Automotive Enthusiast Podcast by Two Car Nerds
318-Ian's Vanity Plate Ringer And Dave's Abarth Issues

TeamClearCoat - An Automotive Enthusiast Podcast by Two Car Nerds

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 5, 2021 45:40


She said that she doesn't listen while he's recording. Sure. Then the topic of Harry Potter comes up and BOOM! Gotcha! Anyway, in addition to Ian's wife texting him guesses at a vanity plate, Dave talks about what went wrong with the Abarth. Here's a hit, it's tall and taffy addicted. We love you.

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies
How Relationships & Collaborative Culture Help Agencies Scale Faster

Smart Agency Masterclass with Jason Swenk: Podcast for Digital Marketing Agencies

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2021 16:30


Do you know the importance of building relationships to help your agency scale faster? Brian Cosgrove was doing well at a big agency but felt it kept him from doing what he really wanted to do, which was starting his own business and bringing innovation to the way the services are provided. Once he founded BrainDo, they started scaling and, within a year, had already grown from two to eight employees. In this conversation with Jason, he talked about the important role that building relationships & collaborative culture played in getting his agency off the ground, why he was always confident that they could run a big program, and what bringing value to his clients really means for him and why it is one of the guiding principles for everyone working at his agency. 3 Golden Nuggets What contributed to their growth. Once he and his partner hired their first employee, figuring out how to get benefits for their staff, how to do payroll, and making everything official with the agency made it a lot easier. They ended up going after a big contract, and that led to them getting at least 8 more workers, which allowed them to build out a lot of different services. What contributed to their faster growth? Brian credits the importance he places on maintaining good relationships with past clients, team members, and employers. He left his position at a big agency in good terms and, thanks to this, they still wanted to contract him afterward. Also, they were always confident that they could run a big program and positioned themselves to be ready for it. Building relationships & collaborative culture. Other agencies started reaching out to partner with them because their expertise. This helped them start to build relationships with local agencies that could refer clients. Also, former clients that were working at different companies started calling them. So Brian highlights the importance of these connections to get his agency off the ground. The importance of building the type of network where everyone is willing to help one another and believe they can all rise together. Of course, good work is a big part of it. “Because of that relationship, I don't want to leave the client in a worse place,” he says, “I refuse to do it.” The chain of value. After signing a contract, the agency will usually deal with the company's manager on a day-to-day basis. One of the guiding principles at Brian's agency is to make sure that that manager is benefitted from this relationship with them. They want to see that person get promoted and fully engaged. They should love what they're doing and help break down barriers within the organization to provide value. “The way I see it,” Brian says, “is I need everybody on my team to say everything that we do has provided value.” The principle is to make sure that what they do brings value to the customer, but also helps them help their team, their whole company and organization. And make sure all of that ends up helping their end customer. Sponsors and Resources Wix: Today's episode is sponsored by the Wix Partner Program. Being a Wix Partner is ideal for freelancers and digital agencies that design and develop websites for their clients. Check out Wix.com/Partners to learn more and become a member of the community for free. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio | Stitcher | Radio FM Building Relationships that Will Help You Scale & The Guiding Principle of Providing Value Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, agency owners? Jason Swank here and I have another amazing guest for the podcast so you can grow your agency faster. We're going to talk about building relationships and creating a collaborative culture within your agency so you can scale faster. So let's go ahead and get into the show. Hey Brian, welcome to the show. Brian: [00:00:25] Hey, how are you? Jason: [00:00:26] I'm excited to have you on. So this is your first podcast. I'm honored you picked me to be your first podcast. But, uh, for the people that have not heard of you yet, tell us who you are and what do you do? Brian: [00:00:39] Yes. I'm Brian Cosgrove. I'm the owner of BrainDo Interactive Consulting, and we do a lot of work across the board, uh, focusing in analytics development and different areas of digital marketing. Jason: [00:00:53] Great. And so how did you get started? Brian: [00:00:55] Interesting story. I was in aerospace engineering and I was looking for as some side money during the holiday season and I applied for warehouse job. And found out I wasn't the best at doing packing boxes, but I was a bit overqualified. And the owner of the company asked if I could help out with some things related to their SEO program. So I read a bunch of like white papers. I read a bunch of like academic papers on people that were actually developing these engines. I tried to figure out, okay, who's the talent? Like how they did it? And then figure out what we should do and came up with a plan. And implemented it and started ranking top. In my other career I was like, okay, I can see where I'm going to be at in 10 years. And that's cool. But this is like amazing growth and I'm able to have a huge impact and I'm still in my early twenties. So I got into that and that kinda got me to crossover into this digital marketing thing. Worked in that space for a little while, went to my first agency Razorfish and started off in SEO. And then I had to fix analytics. Was there for about three years and then went into another company another comp company to help them build out their digital practice when they were doing all kind of like direct mail TV, pretty much all traditional marketing. I went there with some, you know, one of my colleagues from Razorfish. And then that went really well and kind of grew that. And then struck out with a good friend of mine on our own in 2013. Jason: [00:02:38] What made you want to leave? Since the one agency was going really well and you were leading that. What was that itch? Brian: [00:02:44] I already knew, like, I kinda knew since I was young, that I wanted to kinda like start my own thing or make my own thing. I always kind of had a sense of, you know, we could do things a little bit differently. We could innovate a bit in how these services are provided or culture. So for me, it was kind of like I liked doing what I was doing. But it was almost like a trap because it was keeping me away from what I really wanted to do, which was kind of start something fresh. Jason: [00:03:10] Gotcha. Awesome. And when you started the agency, how long did it take you to really kind of start bringing on and building a team? Brian: [00:03:20] So it was just myself and my partner for, I guess, February to November. And then we hired our first employee in November. And at that point we figured out how to get benefits for them. We figured out how to do payroll. We figured it out, we made everything official and we got all that squared away and that made it a lot easier. And then we went after a kind of big contract to kind of do all many different digital channels in, you know, a year two and ended up hiring eight more people that year. That kind of allowed us to build out a lot of different services that we needed someone to run point on. So I'd say within a year and a half, we were at 10 from, you know, two. Jason: [00:04:05] That's great. So what do you think contributed to that growth? Like how did you have that fast growth? Because a lot of people for a couple years, they're just kinda, it's kinda them, their business partner, maybe a couple of contractors. Brian: [00:04:18] It's an interesting thing. So while I was still working, before I even started, I really cared about the relationships with my clients, with my colleagues, with my management, with team members, with vendors. So I had a pretty big network at that point. And it was… You know, there's an interesting thing that happens when you kind of let people know like, okay, I'm going out to do this on my own, you know. People that you've built relationships with that care about you they kind of want to figure out how to work with you. So it helped out tremendously just to kind of lean into that. As soon as we left the place that we were working on asked if we could do some contracting with them. And I was like, we can, but you know, it's gotta be at our contracting rate. You know, it will give you somewhat of a discount for a period of time, but this is how we have to work for our business. And we were able to end up converting our former employer into our client, which was based on the fact that it maintained good relationships. We also took a lot of care in transitional work. Backfilled our roles sort of before we left. We left them in a good place to be like, okay, they're good. All of our big retainers are renewed. Our team they're fully staffed. They can run without us. And then they still wanted to contract with us afterward. Other agencies reached out, they wanted to partner with us because they knew that just individually, myself and my business partner had some expertise in certain areas. And they said, hey, we need help there. Can you guys help us out? So we ended up building relationships with other agencies that were in the area, you know. And then it was like someone who was a former client, you know, went to another agency, brought us in. I'd say a lot of it was kind of just relationships that got us off the ground. I think a big thing for us is we're kind of confident we could run a big program, like an enterprise program. And so, while we took on some smaller clients, we kind of just always positioned ourselves to be ready for that. Like we always kind of really played that role that we're ready to do enterprise work at a moment's notice. And we knew that that would get us a six-figure contract or something like that from a client, which again is sort of like a game-changer when it comes to hiring employees and say, I already kind of have your salary on contract. Like I can afford to pay you in the future without worrying about that. Jason: [00:06:37] Yeah, I think so many lessons in there that I want to make sure people don't skip over. It's you know, the one is you gotta be really good at what you do. Like a lot of people are like, how do you, how do you create a successful agency that's growing? And I'm like, well, you have to know how to do something better than most. And to actually get people results. That's rule number one. But I also liked that you talked about building relationships and really not just going, you know, what's in it for me, you know, like a lot of our mastermind members, they do this amazing… where they're like, look, I don't have any problem today, I just wanted to show up and help. Like help other members, right? And then when they do need help, everyone will… Here, here's the shirt off my back. Here it is. And it's not like I'll do this for you, if you do this. Like we get, you know, all those slimy emails that you get? Like, oh, you have my audience, can you just blast this out? Brian: [00:07:43] Yeah, there's a lot of that going on. Honestly, it's, it's building a tighter circle with people that you don't have to… You know, there's no fakeness to it. There's a lot less agenda. It's sort of like let's all rise together, to me has always been important. Jason: [00:07:59] Yeah, iron sharpens iron, right? Brian: [00:08:04] And I also really care about doing good work. So that point, and so I think that was another thing was that we were kind of committed to making sure we did great work no matter what. It wasn't like, uh, maybe we'll do well, maybe we won't. It was like, we're going to do great work no matter what, because of that relationship. I don't want to leave the client in a worse place. I refuse to do that. And that, and that was just sort of a… an important lesson, I think Jason: [00:08:34] When you're an agency partner with Wix you unlock an entire digital ecosystem for creating, managing, and growing your agency. Get the full coding and design freedom to create anything your clients need, along with the tools to manage and collaborate with your team seamlessly from anywhere. And when it comes to growing your agency, you can get matched with new leads every day and earn revenue share for every website you guys create. They're backed by the Wix industry-leading security and site performance. You'll also have a dedicated account manager on standby 24/7 so you can reach your goals and start setting new ones. See for yourself, head over to wix.com/partners and re-imagine what your agency can accomplish. And I think a lot of people forget that, you know, we kind of ring the bell. Or the gong, you know, ring the gong when you sell a deal and you're like, yeah, that's good for you. But you know, the client is already thinking, like having buyer's remorse, like you should be thinking about… Like, I was chatting with Darby, our agency scale specialist yesterday, and he's been bringing on a lot of really amazing members. And he's like, look, I'm so invested because I want them to have the best experience because it's, it's my word of what they went on. And I'm like, that's why we get along so well, we will do anything to move people along rather than like yeah. You gave us money. Yeah. Good luck. Brian: [00:10:10] Yeah, exactly. I mean, the way that I've seen it. So usually when we take on a contract, there's occasionally if it's smaller company, we might be dealing with the owner or upper executives. But usually when it comes to day-to-day, we're dealing with the manager that they have on their end. That's managing the relationship with us. And I've always told my team and, and this is kind of been a guiding principle… I want to see that person be in a position to get promoted. Just for working with us, they're doing so well, but they're now getting promoted. They're fully engaged. They love what they're doing and they're helping break down barriers within the organization to provide value. On top of that, the way that I see it, especially in the bigger organizations is I need everybody on my team to say everything that we do has provided value. Obviously, like it provides value to the brand that we're doing this work for… We're, we're billing for it. And that works out and ultimately it should be contributing to our culture. But after that, the client, that first person, that first line of contact or the person on the front lines, make sure that we're doing everything we can to help them. Make sure that what we're doing not only helps them, but helps them help their team. Make sure what we're doing not only helps them and helps their team, but helps their whole company and organization. And make sure all of that ends up helping their end customer. Because like, if you can follow that, that thread all the way through, and there's no conflict anywhere along the way, let's proceed. Let's move forward with this project and give it everything you've got. If there's a conflict on the way, maybe that's project we don't want to take on. Maybe there's a different reason that we, you know, maybe we want to propose something else. But if you can't follow that all the way along the way, then you can't have confidence that what you're doing is going to provide value. Another thing, I think that was important for us is... And this came up after working in other agencies was, you know, I remember a gentleman said to me said, look, I want to be able to be proud of who I see when I look in the mirror. I want to be able to be proud to tell my kids, the clients and the projects that I work on. And so another thing that we took on very early on was like to be picky. And so it's picky not just on the clients and the projects we work on. We want to do things that provide value to the world, but we also care about kind of like… Are we providing value to that organization? And so the how is just as important as like specifically what we're doing. And I would say, I want to add too, that team members put a lot more energy into it. Jason: [00:12:26] Oh, yeah. I think a big part of why you've gotten to grown so fast too, is you have belief in your team and you. And you said that we knew right away we could take on enterprise clients, right? There's so many of us that didn't start that way, right? We didn't start with at a big agency, like a Razorfish or go to... Like me, I was accidental. I remember I joke with people. I'm like, my first client asked me for an invoice. I didn't even know what an invoice was. I didn't know all these terminologies. And so for many years I had kind of that, um, imposter syndrome. That I could do a website, but I can't do anything else. And I see a lot of people that way. So I just want everybody listening, even if you have that… Look, I even feel like the imposter syndrome too. And I've been in the agency space since 98. And so you got to kind of go look, I'm really good at this and I can dominate this part and go do it. And build relationships like Brian has talked about… Correct me if I'm wrong, if you make all your managers and all those people rockstars, they get promoted and where do they go? Other companies, and then they bring you along. Don't they? Brian: [00:13:43] Yes, exactly. And so, in fact, I just received an MSA for a sneaker brand I'm super into, you know, like huge brands that I liked already loved are now like our client base. And I feel like… This morning, just from work, doing, working hard with some people while they worked in other companies before that. And so the way that I say it is just, that should almost be the end goal. That should be the expectation. Like we're all kind of in our careers together. We are all sort of like at certain points in certain stages. Our clients should be going to other companies, and when they do, they should want to come into work with us. And we should be sort of a secret tool that they bring to the table. Is that it bring that success along with them. Jason: [00:14:26] Exactly. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Well, this has all been amazing. Brian, is there anything I didn't ask you that you think would benefit the audience listening in? Brian: [00:14:34] I just want to touch briefly on the collaboration part. One thing that helped out was that a lot of our brainstorming sessions early on, and what helped us grow is that we, you know, this person was a graphic designer. This person is doing SEO. This person is an analytics and that person's doing paid media. We would do a lot of like collaborative work early on to say, you know, kind of all hands on deck. Like how do we solve this client's paid search need? And get ideas from a lot of different people and made sure that everybody on our team knew Google analytics, knew kind of some of the mechanics of how the other channels worked. And that went a long way to them building relationships, them doing sort of cross-channel collaboration. And then being able to offer solutions to clients that were kind of like a bit more thought through. A bit more holistic or integrated, and a bit more defensible, maybe from different angles. So I would just say like, if you have a few different disciplines, like make sure to figure out how those two go together to be better than if you only worked on just one discipline alone. Jason: [00:15:38] I love it. I love it. What's the website people go and check your agency out? Brian: [00:15:43] Uh, brain.do. Jason: [00:15:44] Awesome. Well, everyone go check that out. Thanks so much, Brian, for coming on the show. Lots of amazing stuff. And if you guys want to be around amazing agency owners and you believe that iron sharpens iron, where other agencies are sharing the strategies that are working for them, and they're able to see the things you might not be able to see. I want to personally invite you all to go to digitalagencyelite.com. This is our exclusive mastermind just for experienced agency owners. We only take a few every couple of months. So go there now, fill out an application and maybe we'll chat if we feel it's right for you. So go to digitalagencyelite.com and until next time have a Swenk day.

The Apple Seed
Dance, Dance, Dance!

The Apple Seed

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2021 56:50


Welcome to The Apple Seed! Some time filled with stories for you and your family. Since 2013 we've been bringing you tall tales, personal tales, fairy tales, historical tales and more. All kinds of tales, from all kinds of tellers. Today's episode is full of fun tales to really get you in the dancing spirit. No matter how your day might be going, a good upbeat song and a little dance is always a good cure to lift your spirits. Whether you're a classicly trained ballet dancer, a self-taught pop-and-locker, or just like to bounce along to the beat of your favorite songs, moving along to the music is something we all like to do from time to time. We've got a great selection of stories for you today all about people who love to sing and dance. On today's episode, enjoy the following stories: “Dancing Granny (A Caribbean Folktale)” by Eshu Bumpus from Dancing Granny and Other Tales to Boogie To (2:47) Radio Family Journal: "Skyler's Drink" by Sam Payne (13:17) The Daily Mix: “To The Last Whale” with Don Shelline (19:46) “Elaina's Birthday Dance” by Sheila Arnold from Hands Wide Open (27:32) “Og Saves the World” by Mark Binder from A Holiday Present (47:10) “Now I've Gotcha” by Priscilla Howe from The Ghost with the One Black Eye and Other Stories (51:12)

The Gravel Ride.  A cycling podcast
In the Dirt 26: Bars, Bags, Bikepacking and weights

The Gravel Ride. A cycling podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 34:03


In this week's In the Dirt, Randall and Craig take a look at gravel handlebar trends, new bags from Post Carry Co, Craig's new strength training with EverAthlete, a new Bay Area bikepacking route and tease an ongoing discussion of social media and cycling in The Ridership. Bay Area Triple Bypass Route Post Carry Bags Whisky Spano Bar Support the Podcast Join The Ridership   Automated transcription, please excuse the typos and errors: Untitled [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. I'll be joined shortly by my co-host randall jacobs for another episode of in the dirt . [00:00:12] This episode is brought to you by our friends at thesis bike. Yes. That indeed is Randall's company thesis. Randall donates his time to the gravel ride podcast in the dirt series, out of an abundance of passion for the sport. But he also runs a company called thesis, as you know, is the maker of the OB one bicycle. [00:00:33] That is actually the bicycle that I ride. If you follow me on social media, you may see my custom painted pink. Thesis, OB one. I affectionately refer to as Mr. Pinky. Anyway, I wanted to give you an update. Thesis has some bikes back in stock.  [00:00:50] As I mentioned a few weeks ago, they've got some of those SRAM rival access grupos in stock. So they've got bikes ready to go, but more importantly, they've just, re-introduced their bring a friend referral program. That'll get you $500 off an OB one. When you purchase a bike with a friend. Or if you have a friend that has a thesis.  [00:01:13] You can hit them up for a $500 discount. So coordinate with the team over a thesis. If you have any questions, you can email them@helloatthesis.bike.  [00:01:23] Or check them out online@thesis.bike, they offer free one-on-one consultations, which is a great way to see if a thesis. It will be. One is the right bike for you.  [00:01:33] With that said, let me grab Randall and let's jump into in the dirt.  [00:01:37] Craig: Hey Randall, how you doing today? [00:01:39] Randall: I'm doing well, Craig, how are you? My friend.  [00:01:42] Craig: I'm good. I literally just got done recording the pre-roll.  [00:01:47] Talking about. [00:01:47] thesis, your company's new refer a friend program, which I thought was cool.  [00:01:52] Let I let the listeners know about that, and I appreciate your efforts as a cohost of in the dirt, but separately, when you wear your thesis bike company, hat. I do appreciate the time to time financial support you provide the podcast. Because it really is the type of thing that keeps the balls rolling around here. [00:02:10] Randall: For sure. Yeah. In our bring your friend program is actually something we did before and had to pull when supply chains went sideways. And now that we have bikes in stock, we'd much rather reward the community rather than. You know, paying Bookface or some ad network to, to reach people. So it's nice to be able to reward those who help spread the word. And then obviously, you know, with what you do, it's been very aligned from the beginning. So thanks for the opportunity to work with you.  [00:02:35] Craig: Yeah. [00:02:35] absolutely appreciate it. Yeah. It's so ridiculous that there was like 15 months or more in there where bike companies just didn't bother advertising or promoting themselves because it was so ridiculously hard product into consumer's hands.  [00:02:50] Randall: Yeah, there's really no point in trying to sell something you don't have. And don't don't know when you'll have it again. That seems to be. That seems to be a phenomenon that's going to continue well into the future for awhile. From what  [00:03:03] Craig: Yeah. I mean, not to bring sort of macroeconomic trends in here, but I was just, just listening to someone talk about how in Apple's earnings call. There is some suggestion that. Supply chains are improving. They have not improved entirely, but that they are. Improving and that in the grand scheme of things, this will be a temporary blip, but temporary could mean two years.  [00:03:26] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. In their case, they're dealing with chips too, which I'm getting a new chip Foundry online is a multi-year $10 billion project. So fortunately we don't have that in the bike industry. We're pretty, pretty low on the technology front, even with our. Wireless shifting, which, how did that take so long to come come about?  [00:03:46] Craig: How are you doing otherwise? Is the weather starting to change on the east coast for you? [00:03:49] Randall: We've had some beautiful days past several days. We had a nor'easter coming through. So I did steal away for a trail run between, between rains in the should have some good weather on the weekend and otherwise loving being with family here in Boston, it's a very different lifestyle than the one I was living in the bay area.  [00:04:06] And it's a very much aligned with where I'm at. Yeah.  [00:04:09] Craig: We get, we got absolutely hammered out here by that rainstorm in Moran. I think we had the highest rain count in Anywhere in California. [00:04:17] that weekend. I think we got on Tam and there's 12 inches of rain. So it was, it was literally coming out of every pore of The mountain. There were new streams and waterfalls being, being created.  [00:04:29] I mean, God knows we needed the water. [00:04:31] and is so nice. I wrote up the mountain for Dawn patrol on a Wednesday and Just to see a little water. [00:04:36] in places where it has been devoid. Void because of the drought was, was nice.  [00:04:42] Randall: When I did see your, your conversation or the conversation you chimed in on in, on, on the ridership about you know, opening up a new you know, gullies and things like this in the trails. So hopefully they're relatively intact. [00:04:55] Craig: Yeah, that was fun. I mean, that's one of those things that you and I have always like thought and hoped would happen in the ridership. Just this idea that a writer could pop a message into the forum and say, Hey, we just got this huge rainstorm. How, how are the trails looking? Is it rideable or is it too.  [00:05:11] As it a sloppy mess. [00:05:13] Randall: Yeah, it's pretty neat.  [00:05:14] Craig: The  [00:05:14] Randall: been training quite a bit lately, right?  [00:05:16] Craig: Yeah. [00:05:16] You know, I was going to say The other good.  [00:05:17] thing about the rain and not being, Wanting to ride my bike outside. [00:05:22] lately, as I have. [00:05:23] committed to a strength training program. [00:05:25] It's one of those things as I've nagged about my back on the podcast. Many months ago.  [00:05:31] That I've actually implemented a little bit of a plan And I've been. [00:05:35] working via a company called ever athlete. And I became aware of them.  [00:05:41] As one of the founder is Kate Courtney's strength and conditioning coach, Kate Courtney being a former world champion mountain Biker. [00:05:49] who comes from This area. [00:05:51] And what, what appealed to me most about. The ever athlete program was that they have a run specific program, a cycling specific program, and then basic conditioning.  [00:06:03] after chatting with them, [00:06:04] a little bit online. And I had a phone call with them just as a general consumer. You know, it was advised that I start with beginner strength training.  [00:06:12] And Totally. [00:06:14] spot on if I started anything beyond beginner. I would have been absolutely destroyed. And frankly, like some of the exercises. Do you have me sore in places that are not used to being sore?  [00:06:26] Randall: So if somebody were to ask you, do you even lift bro? The answer would be not quite yet. I'm doing the beginner stuff first.  [00:06:34] Craig: Yeah.  [00:06:35] Exactly. Like I don't have tank tops yet and a special weightlifting gear and gloves that I'm using, But I have. [00:06:42] I'm on weak. I'm proud of myself. [00:06:43] I just completed week four of an eight week, week block.  [00:06:47] Just getting my body's too. Basic strength training. I'm using a TRX, some elastic bands.  [00:06:54] And just a few basic weights. That's not a exorbitant setup, I'm just doing it. And, you know, eight by eight area of My garage. [00:07:02] every other day.  [00:07:04] Randall: That's great. Yeah, I've. I've gotten on a reasonably regular routine with a pair of 50 pound power blocks, adjustable dumbbells, which I'm a big fan of I've tried a few different types of adjustable dumbbells and these are the best have had. And just like doing a basic routine with not a crazy amount of weight and then adding some chin ups and AB work and so on squats and stuff like that, with that together with running and stretching, and I'll probably be adding yoga.  [00:07:30] As the winter progresses and I can't get outside so much.  [00:07:33] Craig: Yeah, you'll have to put a note in the show notes for me on that one. I'd be interested. Cause I know in ever athletes list of things that I may need. That type of wait setup is, will come into play at some point.  [00:07:45] Randall: Got it. Yeah. They don't, they don't pay us, but I can definitely endorse the power block sport. And it's totally sufficient for me, even at 50 pounds, because anything that I do with more than 50 pounds, I probably shouldn't be doing anyways. I don't need it.  [00:07:57] Craig: Yeah, I mean, good God Right now. [00:07:58] Randall, I'm basically doing almost exclusively body weight exercises.  [00:08:03] 50 pounds seems a long way away from where my current strength training is at.  [00:08:08] Randall: Oh, you can get a whole lot of resistance with just body weight too. So there's no need to buy too much expensive gear, but yeah, these are a good one. [00:08:15] Craig: Yeah. [00:08:16] totally. I mean, I think I'll walk away from this, knowing that just even, even strictly a body weight program would be hugely beneficial.  [00:08:23] Randall: Yeah, I think so. I'm curious to hear how your back is feeling in a couple of months.  [00:08:28] Craig: Yeah, for sure. [00:08:28] So I've got an a, as I said, I've got another month on basic, and then I think I'll just carry over into their cycling, their first cycling Specific program. [00:08:36] And I've been chatting with them. [00:08:37] and I think I'll have them on the pod so we can get just a deeper dive into.  [00:08:42] Not just Their program. [00:08:43] but just strength training specifically, and the, and the value for cyclists to take a break and do something different.  [00:08:51] Randall: I remember hearing a quote somewhere that the biggest problem with cyclists in their training program is that they only ride their bikes.  [00:08:59] Craig: A hundred percent. [00:09:00] It's funny. You mentioned that because another guest I've got coming up is a pretty world renowned. Bike fitter, but he from the UK, but he wrote a book called the midlife cyclist.  [00:09:10] And I'm going to dig into it with him, but yeah, one of the key takeaways is as an average, enthusiastic and passionate, enthusiastic cyclist.  [00:09:19] we're probably riding more and closer to our, not more by volume, but closer to our threshold than professional cyclists do because We go out there. [00:09:28] and we hammer, you know, we're just feeling like we're out there for a good time.  [00:09:31] And the best thing you could do is probably. Lose a workout or two on the bike and change it into some strength training or something. That's you know, testing different parts of your body.  [00:09:41] Randall: Yeah, I look forward to that episode. That'll be a good one.  [00:09:44] Craig: Yeah. [00:09:45] I'm super excited about it. I mean, I've just been thinking about it. In light of my own winter and what I want to achieve and how I want to set myself up for success next year. And success for me just means into being healthy and strong enough to tackle. You know, a big event or two here or there and not have it totally destroyed me.  [00:10:03] Randall: Yeah. And I think that for some of us do I, I ended up talking to a lot of athletes who are. You know, or later in years, and just being able to know that you can, you have some control over your ability to ride well into old age and maintained flexibility and bone density and injury prevention and all these other things is you know, it's, it's it's a good resource for folks to have to, to know how to, how to approach that. [00:10:28] Craig: Yeah, totally. I've. [00:10:28] got another great episode that I'm recording actually immediately after this with Brian McCulloch. Ah,  [00:10:33] Former pro road racer, former BWR winner, and most recently just won. I think it was The masters category. [00:10:40] of mountain bike nationals.  [00:10:41] So Awesome guys. [00:10:42] super enthusiastic. And one of the things he was telling me in his coaching practice. [00:10:47] was that, you know, he coaches plenty of athletes whose goal is I want to complete the event and then be totally Pepe for the beer garden afterwards. [00:10:57] And he's  [00:10:57] I'm Totally down with it. No one wants to just barely crawl across the finish line And then have to go to their car. [00:11:04] to take a nap, especially in these gravel events. We want to finish, we want to commune with our fellow participants and, you know, I think that's a. Admirable goal for anyone to not only cross the finish line, but be able to. Party Hardy as the kids say.  [00:11:20] Randall: Yeah. It's you know, you have the combination of having endured something with, with other people and then getting to connect like the, the vehicle for connection elements shines out of that, that statement there, which is certainly why I ride.  [00:11:33] Craig: Yeah, totally. And speaking of events I know I did a recap episode of Water, but I thought we chat about that a little bit since it's something you've participated in, in years past. [00:11:42] Randall: number of times. Yeah, this is actually the first year, the first time in years that I didn't go. It, I just reading the reporting. It seems like the. You know, the new stuff was relatively sparse. There's a couple of things that you and I want to, to jump into in future episodes with the new BMC.  [00:11:58] Headshot, they're not calling it a headshot, but it's, it looks like a head shock and surrounds new flight, attendants, suspension, and so on. So that'll be fun to dive into, but I'm curious, what else did you see that was compelling?  [00:12:09] Craig: Yeah. You know, I mean, it's first off for those of you who don't know, it's quite the festival. I mean, you've got everything from downhill and Duro, gravel cross-country road racing.  [00:12:20] While I find it. [00:12:21] a bit overwhelming, the sheer number of cyclists and people that are there. At Laguna Seca. It is fun to see someone in spandex and a pro road kit. Riding through the pits next to you, a downhill kid with his full face helmet, shoved back on his head with a neck brace. [00:12:39] Randall: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.  [00:12:41] Craig: You know, from a, from a product perspective and manufacturer perspective. The number of booths was down. I mean, it still was quite a Hardy show, but I would say. You know, with the absence of the international.  [00:12:54] Manufacturers. [00:12:55] coming is probably like 40%, less sheer booths. So it made it more manageable. Whereas now the last time they held it in person.  [00:13:03] I felt like covering it in one day was just too much. Like I really needed about a day and a half or a day and three quarters to get around. [00:13:12] and make sure I poked my head in every booth That was out there. [00:13:15] this year was a little bit more manageable. I think in three quarters of a day, I had cruised around and seen everything I wanted to see.  [00:13:22] Randall: Cool. Cool. And you only spent the one day. Yeah.  [00:13:25] Craig: Yeah. [00:13:25] I just did a day trip which I think. Made me like it a little bit more. I mean, I think the last time we were down there, It was just such a cluster AF to, you know, get in and out of there with your car and you were parked so far away. So I found that this fit where I was at this this year. [00:13:42] Randall: Yeah we had a booth last time too. So we had all of that setting up and tearing down and so on. But yeah, hopefully by next year, it's it would make sense for me to get out there again, cause I've always enjoyed that. It's actually the only, the only time I've ever lined up at a race with like international.  [00:14:00] Racers.  [00:14:01] You know, just cause they you know, even if you were a low, a low level, regional domestic pro, you could line up in the, the UCI cross-country race. So you're not necessarily racing the same race, but burry stander was there and Christoph saucer was there and it was just like my moment of oh wow.  [00:14:16] You know, getting to. Line up. 15 rows behind them.  [00:14:20] Craig: You're like, I'm going to stay on their wheel and 50 meters. And you're like, I'm not going to stay on their wheel. [00:14:24] Randall: Oh, they, they started 20 seconds before I did. By the time everyone's actually rolling. So there's, there's no staying on any wheels regardless.  [00:14:32] Craig: That's all. It's the funniest thing. When I'm at these big events, when they, they shoot off the starting gun and you're far enough back that nothing happens. There's no movement.  [00:14:41] Randall: Yeah, the slinky effect.  [00:14:43] Craig: Yeah. [00:14:44] But there have been, you know, there's been some cool stuff dropping lately that I think we should talk about. You  [00:14:49] know, I think. We should jump in a little bit into the handlebars that have been coming out because I know. In talking to you. You had a particular design in mind that you.  [00:15:01] thought was what you would design. If you.  [00:15:04] were going to design a Handlebar. [00:15:05] from the ground up, and then lo and behold, someone came out with one that was pretty darn close to what you described.  [00:15:11] Randall: Yeah. So I've called out this Aero Jaya. I think it's called my three T a number of times. And this was the closest thing to what I would design that I had seen. But whiskey just came out with a bar called the Spano. Or Spanno however they want to accentuate that a and pretty much everything about this is the way that I would design a bar.  [00:15:30] There's a few things I would do subtly differently and I can definitely share that. But You know, it's 12 degrees at the hoods and 20 degrees to the drops and it's a compound flare. And so you don't have to have the same flare. At the hoods and in the drops, because a lot of the leavers these days have some flare built in anyways. I would probably go with a little bit less flare with the hoods to give it a little more roadie position, maybe eight degrees, but still.  [00:15:53] For, you know, this is well done. It's a flat top design there. It looks like they've had some engineered flex. Built into, you know, what I would call like the wings of the bar so that you get some vertical flex. From the bar, which could help to, you know, negate the need for something as substantial as like a suspension stem.  [00:16:12] I think that these compliance structures are our real opportunity to add. Compliance to the bike without necessarily having to add mechanical linkages and things like this.  [00:16:22] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that, that compliance is something that people would really benefit from. And if, if, if the manufacturers can do it in subtle ways, I think it all adds up.  [00:16:33] Randall: Challenges that different riders are going to have different needs in terms of let's just say you want to deliver the same experience to everybody. Then, you know, with a given handlebar under a bigger rider, you are going to need it to be stiffer in order for them to have the same experiences as a lighter weight rider. Who's just not exerting the same force.  [00:16:50] So that would be one thing where, you know, that's hard to do without having two versions of the bar or some sort of tuneable flex mechanism, which is something I've played around with, but adds complexity.  [00:16:59] I do like how the, the drop is really shallow. It's a hundred mil. The reaches is pretty short, 68. I would have the drop scale with the size of the bar would be one minor thing, because presumably on average, the, you know, the width of the bar is scaling with the size of the rider. But even that there's a huge amount of variation on that bell curve.  [00:17:19] Overall, like. It's this, this is from what I've seen and what you can do with the leavers that are on the market. Because there's only two companies that make them and they control Libra design. This, this is the most interesting one to me. Hopefully we can get our hands on one at some point and provide a proper review, but it looks really, really compelling. I'm glad to see this direction towards compound flares.  [00:17:41] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:41] I thought that I was going to key in, on that. Those words you used compound flares, because I do think that's interesting because you know, one of the things that. The F the former roadie in me, I do not like when the, when the shifter lovers are angled into too far. And it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel great. And it seems if there's a.  [00:18:00] If there's a design way too. Still get the flare you need at the bottoms while not overly adjusting where the hoods are, you know, that's a win.  [00:18:11] Randall: Yeah. And, and, you know, in our bars, we went with a. Non-compounded 10 degree flare because it is, you know, the best, the most glared you can get without it. Really effecting the ergonomics at the hoods, especially with say ceramides mechanical road leavers that have a kind of a square edge. So if you rotate them too far out, you get a kind of a pressure point in the middle of the hand. [00:18:31] But yeah, it's a pretty neat handlebar. So [00:18:35] Craig: Yeah. And with everything. You know, I think you've gotta be tooling costs are obviously like the big concern and changing it. Dramatically. Size wise each time. And so you, haven't got to think about. How many sets of tools are you willing to buy to bring this product to market? Handlebar replacement. I don't know what kind of volume any of these companies do with their handlebars, but it's, it's a little bit of a balance there. I would think from a manufacturing perspective.  [00:19:03] Randall: Yeah to, to dive a little bit into this without going too deep nerd. So if you're a big manufacturer, like a specialized or a track or something, you can amortize those tooling costs over a large number of bicycles that are specking that this handlebar at the OEM level, if you're doing an aftermarket bar,  [00:19:19] It's a lot harder. And the tooling cost is quite material on an item like this, where it's low volume and you have so many different sizes. Usually it would be three tools. You'd have. You know, or at least the three component tool. So you have. You know, the two drops and then you have the center section and maybe the center section is a single mold.  [00:19:38] With different inserts or even like you make one long one and then you chop it to the width that you want. And then you essentially bond on the drops. Which is where some extra weight comes in. So if you see bars like 250 grams or so if you want to drop 50 grams without compromising the structural integrity, that has to be a one-piece bar, which means.  [00:19:57] An independent, large mold. That's that's moderately complex for every single size. And if you're only doing a few hundred units a year, which is a good volume for an aftermarket handlebar, that's hard to justify economically.  [00:20:10] Craig: Yeah. [00:20:10] that makes a ton of sense. I'm actually curious, and maybe listeners can either hit us up on social media or in the ridership, ideally about how often.  [00:20:18] People replace their bars. And is it the type of thing that When you're building. [00:20:22] the bike, you get that bar and you never think about it otherwise. Which I suspect, I know I've certainly been there in my bike ownership life. But I do think there's a decent amount of innovation in gravel bars for people to consider and just keep an eye out there for what are the performance benefits? How do these different bars feel?  [00:20:43] When you put them on your existing bike.  [00:20:45] Randall: I do think that one of the major constraints here is simply cost and that actually has less to do with the unit cost and more to do with having to amortize the tooling costs over. So few units. But I, you know, handlebars like a carbon bar on the one hand, it's somewhat disposable. If you design it, if you don't design it right. Where if you crash, like you really want to replace it. But on the other hand, the, the opportunities for compound shapes and for compliance being built in.  [00:21:12] Negates may negate the need for more expensive and complicated solutions elsewhere on the bike to achieve the same goals. You know, I'd like to see if I could do a handlebar at scale, You know, the, the actual cost on something like this is for a tiny fraction of the actual sale price of, you know, 250 to 400 bucks on some of these bars. [00:21:31] Craig: Yeah. [00:21:31] That's the thing. I mean, once you've got, once you've got your bike frame. And you're not going to replace that. You really need to look at your attachment points as the, you know, how are you going to tune the bike? [00:21:41] Randall: Yeah, the touch points. Exactly.  [00:21:44] Craig: On the other end of the spectrum. [00:21:46] curve had a bar called the Walmart. Out for a while. And curve is probably best known for their massively wide bars. I mean like 50 plus centimeter bars.  [00:21:58] Very different riding style. They've actually gone the other way and introduced a narrower version of that. And I just think it's interesting to see them coming in. I mean, I can imagine that she super, super wide bar is a big part of the markets. I suppose it's not surprising. To see them go narrower.  [00:22:15] Randall: They're also going with aluminum. You know, your tooling cost is. It's basically a jig. So it's not, you can do smaller volume and, and carve out that little niche for oneself, but yeah, they went with a 40 and a 43 with, it looks like here, but the. My concern would be the flare is so great at the hoods.  [00:22:34] That you'd really want to be mindful of the shape of the hoods that you're using to make sure that it's not going to put a pressure point in your hand.  [00:22:42] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:42] I think it's a bar for a very specific customer. Follow up question for you on a aluminum versus carbon in the handlebar from a field perspective, what are the what's. How should people think about the difference in feel between those two materials?  [00:22:57] Randall: It really depends on how it's engineered. It really depends heavily on how it's engineered. And I was. You know, the particulars of the material, how it's shaped, how it's drawn is it, is it. You know, buddied and so on, which is an actual budding process. And with carbon kind of same thing, like.  [00:23:13] What is, what is the shape? What type of carbon is being used? What is the layup? You can make a structure that is incredibly stiff or very compliant you could add. I think loaf their bar, they're using some You know, some fancily branded. Fiberglass material in order to create you know, some, some even, even greater, even greater flex in the part of the handlebar, just beyond the clamp with the stem.  [00:23:38] GT did this with their original grade and may still to this day on the seat stays, they actually have a fiberglass wrapped in carbon fiber. So fiberglass is what's used in like a fishing pole. So think about the extremes of flex that you can get with that before it breaks. [00:23:52] So there's it really just, it just depends, but in terms of the opportunities to tune flex and so on. Vastly greater with carbon, for sure, for sure. But this trade-offs with that.  [00:24:03] Craig: Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Hey, the other thing I wanted to mention in terms of new product drops recently was our friend mark at post Kericho. I dropped a couple of new bags.  [00:24:14] Randall: Yeah, let's take a look at these. So he's got a new handlebar bag. Which these, these things are hard to. Talk too much about with action without actually experiencing one, but  [00:24:27] Craig: Yeah. [00:24:28] I think the interest, the interesting thing about all Mark's stuff is he's a very thoughtful designer and one of my pet peeves around the handlebar bags, and it's got nothing to do with. Like general use of the bag. Is that with the zipper being up top?  [00:24:43] With my bike, computer Mount, and oftentimes a light it's really hard to get at them because it's being pushed down and Mark's designed the zipper to be in the middle of the front of this bag.  [00:24:57] I saw some comments about Alex, stuff's going to drop out. But I think at the end of the day, you're going to know that it's there and that's where it's located. So I think from a practical perspective, it's still going to work, but it would solve my personal problem with trying to get in there without unstrapping the bag from the handlebar.  [00:25:14] Randall: Yeah. And this bag is also quite compact, this new bag in the mini handlebar bag that he came out with. And so I could imagine. Strapping it to the bar and the little strap on the back around the stem, as opposed to, you know, having to strap it in a way that may push cables or the bag itself into the head tube, which is a very common problem with these handlebar bags.  [00:25:35] And you know, leads me to actually on my bike packing bag to have add straps in order to have it connect both to the bar and then to like right behind the hoods. So you don't get that rotational flop and it [00:25:49] keeps it off the head tube. But that's a [00:25:51] Craig: And are they get minimum? At minimum for anyone writing. Riding. You know, a lot, lots of types of bags, just consider putting some protective film over your frame in case there's rubbing. [00:26:00] Randall: For sure. For sure. Yeah, we, yeah. Good recommendation.  [00:26:05] Craig: The other interesting one he came up with was this bomber top tube bag, which is a very long and, and Kind of not, not a big stack height bag that can go along the top tube or underneath the top tube. It's the, maybe three quarters of the length of the top two, but it looks like.  [00:26:21] We're just, it's interesting. I don't think for me, it's like a daily rider type thing, but I do love the multiple different positions of it. And I could see for a bigger trip or a bigger day out this being like one of those bags that I just add on for specific purposes. [00:26:36] Randall: Yeah, And presumably it's a bit lighter than his existing frame bag, which I own, I'm not sure if you own as well. I'm a huge fan of that bag for, for bigger days on the bike where I need to bring stuff.  [00:26:47] Craig: Yeah. [00:26:47] no. I imagine like running that quarter frame bag and then adding this one on top, you know, if you were doing some epic back country ride and wanted to maybe bring a full pump or what have you I think this is a neat option to add on and augment that kind of storage.  [00:27:02] Randall: One comment I did see in one of the articles was this idea of, you know, maybe it would be a mountable on the bottom of the down tube. Which I actually think is a a space where, you know, a design, a bag that was designed specifically for that space could both lower center of mass. And Potentially provide some protection for that part of the bike from rocks kicking up and so on, which is a significant concern, especially when you get into more Tundra terrain on one of these gravel bikes.  [00:27:31] Craig: Yeah. I think some more of the hardcore bike packing pack bag manufacturers have solutions for that area, whether they're building off the bottle cage, that's often down there and a lot of these gravel bikes. We're otherwise attaching agree. It's a, it's an interesting place. There's so many different nooks and crannies.  [00:27:50] To jam stuff on these bikes with all these new modern bags. It's a, you're not, there's no dearth of options for you, depending on how you want to set up your rig.  [00:27:58] Randall: Yeah. And the last thing we'll call out here is the the seat bag, which is a pretty standard, but really elegantly designed seat bag. And I just got to, you know, give a shout out for him on just the aesthetics of these bags. Then also the cost structure, like the seat bags, 30 bucks. You know, the, the bomber bag.  [00:28:13] I'm seeing 35 bucks. So really getting like this high quality construction and design at a very accessible price point. So Bravo mark, keep up the good work. Good to see you. Continuing to put product out.  [00:28:25] Craig: Yeah, kudos. Speaking of other things that people, we know, people from the ridership we're putting out there in the world. Some cool stuff on bike, packing.com.  [00:28:34] Randall: Yeah. So our friends Emily Chung and Seth Hur from over at bike index. So you've worked with, did he do the full triple crossover?  [00:28:44] Craig: He did.  [00:28:44] Randall: Yeah. So the bay area, triple crossover, which was published on bike, packing.com over the past week or so, 161 miles, three to four days 65% unpaved and a really, a lot of great photography and so on. And it covers essentially from Marin. North of San Francisco all the way around the bay, back to south bay.  [00:29:06] Maybe in the other direction, maybe that's how they finished up, but it's a, and there's actually a way. Yeah. And there's a way to, and we discussed this in the forum to connect to the bay area Ridge trail through the Santa Cruz mountains. If someone wanted to do an entire loop here, which  [00:29:21] She, she very well may do at some point in posts, but a really cool to see members of the community going out and having good adventures and sharing the routes with others so that others can follow in the footsteps or pedal strokes. As we may say.  [00:29:34] Craig: Yeah. [00:29:34] for sure. It's so valuable to have this sort of bait out there. And I love all the imagery. I. People should go to the bike, packing.com. Link and you can find it either in the ridership or we'll put it in the show notes for this episode, stunning pictures. And it's so cool. I think there's one picture I'm looking at right now.  [00:29:52] Of the four of them riding across the golden gate bridge. In part of their journey looks like they're heading towards Marin and this pitcher just starting off. I just love it. I'm in such, such sort of iconic. Imagery around the bay area. And for those of you not in this area,  [00:30:07] The idea. [00:30:08] that you could fly into SFO. Take a Bart train into the city with your bags or even write up and then start on this journey. From a major metropolitan area is just awesome. And even from some of the imagery, you would think you're nowhere near any sort of major city. [00:30:26] Randall: Oh, yeah, that was one of the things I loved about living in San Francisco was if I needed to be out in the middle of nowhere, I could be so with no one around in 45 minutes over in the headphones.  [00:30:36] Craig: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:30:37] exactly. [00:30:37] So kudos to MLA for all the great photography and her partners on that trip. Super cool and amazing that they put it out there. [00:30:44] Randall: Yeah. And another thing just to mention with this too, is a. They're in the forum. And so if this is something you want to do embark on one of the motivations, there was to be able to go to a new region and just reach out to folks and say, Hey, what's the beta. Hey, does anyone want to join me for a segment?  [00:31:00] You know, one of the group rides going on and we've been seeing those dynamics, which is really cool.  [00:31:04] Craig: Yeah, exactly. [00:31:05] I mean, it's so it's, so it's so great that there are so many sites out there that are publishing adventures and things like that. But being able to talk to people, locals about current conditions or.  [00:31:17] You know, even advice for that. Ad-on you described down into the Santa Cruz mountains, like That kind of stuff. [00:31:22] is awesome. And invaluable. If You're going to spend. [00:31:25] a week of Your hard earned time and vacation and money in a particular area. [00:31:30] I don't know about you, but I, I just want to get the most out of it as, as possible.  [00:31:34] Randall: Yeah, and this is something that you know, a conversation that sprung up organically in the forum and that we're going to be looking to facilitate a lot more conversation around, which is. You know, the role of, you know, what might be called social media, just online tools for connecting with others generally in the cycling experience. And so what is, what is a healthy role? What are unhealthy roles and how do we create something that.  [00:31:58] Facilitates things that, that help people live live better in gets out of the realm of say what certain large players have been accused of credibly in terms of That's the same behavior that is not, is more in the interest of profit and shareholders. Then the the people that they've disk.  [00:32:14] Describe as users.  [00:32:16] Craig: Yeah. [00:32:17] that, that thread in the ridership's really interesting and some very thoughtful commentary. It's fascinating how different people view different platforms. You know, obviously you've got mainstream social media and then more cycling specific sites that kind of serve similar purposes. So it's something, you know, I know you think a lot about, I've thought a lot about.  [00:32:38] In the context of the ridership and and generally interesting how other people are expressing their sell themselves. And. What types of things they use and don't want to use. [00:32:49] Randall: Yeah. So this is something that you know, we're also considering how to evolve the, the forum as well. We built it in slack because that was the best. Tool available. But we're exploring other tools and add ons and things like this. And if this is a conversation that interests you we'd really love your, your feedback and it's, you know, that conversation is happening in the ridership. So come join us there and let us know how we can make it better.  [00:33:12] Craig: Yeah. [00:33:12] As always. [00:33:13] I mean, we are very open to your input about these episodes and any other episode of the gravel ride podcast.  [00:33:20] The ridership forum is something that, you know, we started from Our hearts but it's really a community run initiative. [00:33:26] and we want to evolve as the community wants us to and, and directionally where they want us to go.  [00:33:33] Randall: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:33:35] Craig: Yeah.  [00:33:36] Cool. [00:33:36] I think that's about it for this week's edition of in the dirt Randall. I appreciate your time as always.  [00:33:42] Randall: As always as well. Craig [00:33:43] Craig: And to all the listeners until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels. 

Discovered Wordsmiths
Episode 72B – TW Piperbrook – Pantsing vs Plotting

Discovered Wordsmiths

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 24:35


Clip Overview Tyler talks about pantsing vs plotting and how his technique has changed over his decade of writing. He found that working with a partner made it almost necessary to have to plot. He likes to use Trello. https://trello.com/ Stay tuned until the end to hear some hair metal discussion. YouTube https://youtu.be/rwgZrJAWcgA Transcript [00:00:48] Stephen: Tyler. Welcome back. Second half mark. I mark these as the B podcast. I don't know if that helps anybody, but it helps me. It looks like you haven't moved, so that's wonderful. [00:00:58] TW Piperbrook: I love it. Yeah, I'm still in my [00:01:00] dungeon down here. This is my music room. Like the basement, my little man cave. You can't see it, but I've got my electronic drum set here and all my guitars and basses and all that stuff. [00:01:10] Stephen: Great. That's cool. Yeah. I played bass. I talked to a lot of authors that also play music. That seems to be a thing. [00:01:17] TW Piperbrook: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I think it's all the artistic stuff. [00:01:20] Stephen: You've been doing this for eight and a half years. What have you learned that you're doing different now than you did clear back when you started? [00:01:28] TW Piperbrook: Yeah, I think maybe as we said in part a there just looking on general terms I guess I've maybe grown thicker skin for things, as far as like feedback and reviews and stuff like that. And I, I think you're always learning you're learning about your process. Ideal you're reading. I make reading a part of my day if I can. So always reading and learning new words and new ways to plot things and all that stuff. Yeah, I guess I've learned that I'm always gonna make mistakes, but ideally, and hopefully I'm getting better at my craft, but who knows? And that's not really for me to decide, but that's the goal, right? So this is to try to get [00:02:00] better and yeah, you fall and you get back. [00:02:02] Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, I've heard many times the successful people are just the ones that kept writing that wrote that next book and got them out. Not just the one. I'm, I haven't been doing this forever, but I've already talked to enough authors. That they get a book out and they're like, yeah, it didn't really do anything. So I stopped doing it. I knew a guy that spent, took off, put working, spent four years writing without working his wife, supported them with kids. And it's going to be the best book ever. And then he basically said I don't want to use an editor because I don't think they'll understand what I'm trying to do. And it's man. Gotcha. And, I think he sold 20 copies or something like that total. Yeah, just keep going, keep writing, do more learn. [00:02:51] TW Piperbrook: I agree with, yeah. Yeah. And I guess to your point, like I've had a couple of different editors over the last batch of years. Each one will teach you so much. Cause they're all, they [00:03:00] all have their unique skill sets. And so I guess I'm always looking for somebody to beat me up a little more, as I say, because I've got an editor now that's really beating me up. And I like it when I see like a whole bunch of red on the word document and the comments and track changes. I say, this is great. This is stuff I can learn because like I always say I've used the tech editor in the past to like a military guy. I always say, I'd rather you beat me up. Then the reviewers beat me up. So let me have it and let me try to get better, [00:03:27] Stephen: yeah. That's why I don't push my stuff a lot on family, because they don't want to say anything and hurt your feelings. And I'm like, but you're missing the point. I'd rather you tell me this socks, then have it, get out there and don't sell anything. And I feel like discouraged. And that's a hard thing though. A family, I don't think understands very often. [00:03:46] TW Piperbrook: Yeah.

Discovered Wordsmiths
Episode 72A – TW Piperbrook – Alive Again

Discovered Wordsmiths

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 25:23


Clip Overview Tyler lives with his family in Connecticut and has been writing for about 10 years. Yes, he is full time with his apocalyptic fiction. Like many authors, he also plays music besides writing. He and I talked hair metal for awhile - until he lost power. His writing career started when he was 10 and submitted manuscripts to publishers Website http://twpiperbrook.com/ His Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09HSHWM6Y/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B09HSHWM6Y&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=db0531652716aa0d2ae2060dcb4cf0df Some Favorites https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594749760/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1594749760&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=cccd1b0eba73f21cda4882298d98fe80 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AA2FCO2/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00AA2FCO2&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=72fc5a7473cacad9478b4f5b8df4d4c6 The Book Barn: https://www.bookbarnniantic.com/ YouTube https://youtu.be/qAXcKSjA6jg Transcript [00:00:37] Stephen: Hey, all welcome to episode 72 of discovered wordsmiths. Today. I've got TW paper Brook and he writes dystopian fiction and we had a really good conversation. Mostly about hair metal. We both liked to hair metal and we were getting so intense in our hair metal discussion that he lost power. Maybe that wasn't the reason, but, I just wanted to say it is now [00:01:00] fall. I love fall that the snow is going to be coming. I know a lot of you hate that, but not me. I love snow. I can't wait. So I'm very excited these next couple of months, I've got a lot of great interviews coming and it's a great time of year for me. So be. Fun couple of months. And as a reminder, please, if you've been listening to the podcast or if it's your first time, please go to your favorite podcast app and give us a give us a review, give us some stars, a thumbs up, whatever it helps others discover. And the more people that discover the podcast, the more new authors are being discovered and read. And that's the goal here. We want our authors to get the recognition that they deserve. Also, we have a YouTube channel, check that out if you like listening to things on YouTube at us, into the playlist, subscribe to us there. Without further ado, here's. Tyler welcome. Today's discover wordsmiths. Great talking to you again. Face-to-face if not in the same room like we were before, how are you [00:02:00] doing? [00:02:00] TW Piperbrook: Yeah. Good. How are you doing? Thanks for having me on. [00:02:03] Stephen: Yeah, it's great to see you again. Oh, sorry. I think we got a bit of a lag. If I over-talk top you. I apologize. I'll try not. Sure. Okay. So to get started, we want to find out a little bit about you. So tell everybody a little bit about yourself things you like to do, where you live outside of writing, things like that. [00:02:22] TW Piperbrook: Yeah. Gotcha. Again, I'm TW Piper, Brooker, Tyler Piper, Brooke. I live in Connecticut. So on the Northeast here got a wife and a son and a crazy little shit too dog I've been writing for well full-time for about eight and a half years, I think now. But yeah, as far as what I like to do. Outside of writing. I'm also a guitarist and a vocalist. So I think me and you had talked to eighties, hair metal a little bit. Yeah. I love all that stuff. [00:02:48] Stephen: Yup. We push past the metal guys and we just went with the hair glam stuff to get them. [00:02:54] TW Piperbrook: Yeah. I like all that stuff. I like, I do the harder metal too and punk rock and just regular rock and all that stuff [00:03:00] too. But yeah. So I've been in a band in the past too. I guess other artistic pursuits. And then I like hiking and I guess I'm in a fairly good place for it in the Northeast here. There's I'm right near a river.

#WrestlePals
Gotcha Som e Rest

#WrestlePals

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 21:02


REST

Media Boys Podcast
MB #51 - One Cut of The Dead, Back 4 Blood, Hellbilly Deluxe by Rob Zombie

Media Boys Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 30, 2021 66:35


Happy "Hall of ween"! That's hilarious. "Hall of ween" Ha Ha. Who writes this stuff? I'll be thinking about this one later! And I'll be laughing and laughing. MB talk a one take zombie movie, a four friends zombie game, and a Rob zombie. Bah... Bah... BOO! Gotcha!!! YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNvFjMyga8ob_UHmSw4XUoA Twitter - https://twitter.com/mediaboys_pod?lang=en One Cut of The Dead - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wBImbHqhFk Back 4 Blood - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkP8dOQrIyk Hellbilly Deluxe by Rob Zombie - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq0GuhS3jCM&list=PL6ogdCG3tAWhm5SJHDH_La0sSePe0iKOC

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast
Real Estate Financing, Development and Student Housing, with Andrew Drexler | EP76

Working Capital The Real Estate Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 46:31


Andrew Drexler has been a Part of the First National Financial Commercial Team for over 15 years, and has Originated more than $4 billion in Commercial Financing. In 2020 alone, his team funded over $1 billion in Commercial Mortgages, of which $822 million represented transactions in Ontario and $236 million Represented Transactions in Quebec In this episode we talked about: Andrew's Bio & Background The Real Estate Market Liquidity Debt Markets and Financing of Projects The Retail Real Estate Outlook Remote VS Onsite Work Real Estate Risks and Opportunities Underwriting Apartment Buildings Condo Development The Student Rental Market Canadian and US Real Estate Mentorship, Resources and Lessons Learned Useful links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewdrexler/?originalSubdomain=ca https://www.firstnational.ca/contact-us Transcription: Jesse (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time, or at least an in gentlemen, my name Jessica galley, and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcast. Our special guest today is Andrew Drexler. Andrew has been part of the first national financial commercial team for over 20 years.   Now, for those of you that don't know first national is one of Canada's largest non-bank mortgage lenders offering both commercial mortgages and resident residential mortgage solutions. And correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew, I believe you said that we're over 10 billion in, in mortgage originations.   Andrew (50s): It's going to be pretty close to 10 billion for this year. Yes, we're on the commercial side. It's going to be a very exciting year.   Jesse (56s): Well, first of all, thank you so much for coming on. It's it's great that you're being generous with your time. How you doing today?   Andrew (1m 2s): My pleasure. Good. Thank you. It's a beautiful fall day in Toronto right now. I love fall. It's my favorite season. So it's a beautiful day   Jesse (1m 9s): Transience of that fall season. We get it for such a small amount of time. That makes it so good. Well, it is a, it is false. Yeah, no, absolutely. I appreciate that. It is fall. It's a leaves home opener today. So at least versus Canadians for the hockey fans out there. What we do with, with guests that we have on first and foremost, Andrews, we like listeners to get a little bit of a background into, you know, how you got into the, the real estate space, maybe a little bit of, of your background and how you ended up where you are today.   Andrew (1m 44s): Sure. So, you know, I first got introduced to real estate actually, when I came as a 14 year old immigrant to Canada for Romania, with my family. And it was the first time it occurred to me that you have to pay rent to live somewhere. And I thought that was quite interesting. So I guess I went to school at the university of Toronto and upon graduating, I was very fortunate to meet more the co-founder of first national and, you know, he's a legendary figure in our industry.   He's been a great mentor for me now for 20 years. And so early on in my career Morty and I were looking after one of our largest clients from Israel who came into Canada and bought a lot of real estate in a very short period of time. And so early on, I was exposed to all the different asset classes and because they were short-staffed here, we did a lot for them, not just the financing, but a lot of the acquisition work and due diligence work, you know, and that gave me a really good understanding of both the equity and the debt side. So it's been, it's been a really amazing ride really for the last 20 years, we've worked on some really exciting deals, mixed use deals, construction loans, and pretty much every asset class.   So it's been, it's been quite an interesting last 20 years. We've seen a lot for sure. And you know, I'm excited about where the Canadian industry is. I mean, there, we see a lot of changes, but we also have some challenges going forward. So I think overall though, the industry, the Canadian real estate industry is in a pretty good space   Jesse (3m 12s): For sure. And in terms of coming out of the university of Toronto going, you know, meeting, meeting the, you know, the head of first national, was that your first path into real estate or was there, was there other companies that you work for prior to, to first national?   Andrew (3m 26s): No, that was my first. That was my first job out of university. It was, I was, I was quite lucky. Actually. I started a business lab in university, which led me to meet somebody who then introduced me to the Maury and went, you know, it, this is how the opportunity came about. And it's been, it's been a great opportunity that I really appreciated, you know, first actually has been just such a gold standard in the mortgage industry, Steven Smith and Moya Taz. And they've done a great job of being at the forefront of innovation. And, you know, like you said earlier, I mean, we're going to be close to $10 billion of new mortgages originated this year on the commercial side, the single family side is, is a leader in its space as well.   So we get a really good look at what's going on in the industry, you know, both from the commercial side and the, the, the, I guess the single family side and just the strength and the health of the overall industry. From that perspective,   Jesse (4m 18s): I'm curious to ask, I mean, it's not often you have a seasoned vet. That's been with a company like first national from inception in terms of the, the background that you've seen over the years, first National's evolution to, to what the different places that they lend within the capital stack. How has that evolved over your career there?   Andrew (4m 36s): So we used to be predominantly an apartment lender on the I'm only going to speak from the commercial side cause that's where, where I work, but we are mostly an apartment lender and now we've become, you know, we do retail, we do office, we do self storage, we do student housing and retirement. We've really become a very balanced lender. This is a time. I mean, there's definitely a lot of liquidity in the markets, both for on the equity side and on the debt side, it's a great time to be a borer. If you have existing assets, it's a very difficult time to be a developer, looking for land, looking for new projects, you know, it's become tougher and tougher to make money in real estate, both buying and developing.   But if you do have an existing portfolio, it's a very good time and there's so much liquidity. I don't think I've ever seen this much liquidity in our market, again, both from the, the equity and the debt side.   Jesse (5m 28s): So how has the last year, well, almost two years now, this environment that we've, we find ourselves in, how has that, if, if it has at all changed the way that you look at the debt markets, the way that you look at financing of projects, you know, anything different philosophies changed over the, over the last 18 to 24 months?   Andrew (5m 51s): You know, it's a good question. So I think we've been surprised at how certain asset classes have held up. I think at, you know, we were worried about apartment owners and, and, you know, we were wondering whether people are going to lose their jobs and not be able to pay their rents. And the apartment sector has held up incredibly well. You know, I mean, the government's done their job to, to support people and then people to their credit have done a great job of maintaining their rent payments and not defaulting there. I think, you know, rebel is had its challenges.   You know, obviously people shop differently. Now. I think people are spending less, I think on the office side it's yet to be determined, right? I mean, I, I'm a big believer in the return of the downtowns. I think, you know, we've seen apartment vacancies in the downtown core across Canada go from 0% to 15% almost overnight. I think we're starting to see the return now and nobody's really back at work, but very small people are, people are back in the office. I think that we will go back fairly quickly. I'm so bullish on, on the Canadian major cities.   I mean, I just think when I look around the world, I, I wouldn't rather be, I wouldn't be anywhere else really than, than here. So I think there's a big draw from an immigration perspective, economic perspective, our, our political system is good. Are healthcare systems good or universities are good. So I think, you know, Canada will continue to be a strong point of, of, of entry, you know, industrial of course has been booming. And so that's, we all know that everybody's looking for, for industrial space and, and rents and values and land and cap rates.   Everything is it's at an all time high cap rates at an all time low, of course. So the Canadian market is held up really well. I, I would say my biggest worry is really more around the retail side. I think the, the office side will rebound and I think the office sector for the most part is owned by very large institutional players that have a deep pockets. I think on the retail side, I'm more concerned about, you know, when you lose the mom and pop tenants and when you see some of the anchors that are maybe downsized or not quite taken up as much space, I'm not sure that there's a long list of replacement tenants that are waiting in the wings.   You know, in previous years or decades, there's always somebody new coming out of the U S there's always somebody new coming out of Europe. We just don't seem that anymore. And I'm just worried that that rents probably in the long-term are going to be flat lower than where they are today. And that's assuming the occupancy stays at the level that it's at, but overall the market has been good. I think you certainly put more emphasis now on the strength of the bore and their cashflow abilities. You know, it used to be that somebody got, they had a good net worth, they're good to go, but now it's, you know, they own a bunch of different plazas and they're not quite getting their full, you know, a hundred percent of rent that they used to collect.   So can they still support the loan or what happens when their loans roll over? And they start all of a sudden going to a higher interest rate, you know, which is the next point, which is, you know, I do think unfortunately we're in for a, a period of rising interest rates. I do think that everywhere you look, you know, it screams inflation, and eventually that's going to make its way into the interest rate environment. You know, there's talk about one a day data being, being slowed down or reduced at all levels and malt and other, you know, many countries.   And I think that that ultimately will put pressure on bond yields to move up, which will result in higher interest rates are interest rates can lead to higher cap rates, you know, maybe a reduction in values. And again, the cash flow is, is a big concern. So we're definitely, stress-testing our borders a little bit more, and we're looking very closely at the ability of the property as well to, to support their, that they plan on taking   Jesse (9m 32s): Yeah, in terms of a lot there. But for, for the particular asset class, I'm curious with retail, as you know, we've seen, I think whether in the states, whether it's 26 or 27 square feet per person per capita, and we're somewhere 16 and then, you know, European countries, sub 10. So all that to say that we, you know, a lot of real estate or retail, I think that even prior to COVID, we, we knew it was overbuilt, but now really getting granular. And the ones that at least we see is that the grocery anchored or the good anchor tenant malls or areas experiential areas I think are going to be positive.   But when it comes to you looking at retail as an asset class, are you looking, you know, with much more emphasis on the credit worthiness of, of the tenants and what that tenant profile looks like?   Andrew (10m 21s): Yeah. I think it's, it's the long-term stability of that tenant and trying to anticipate what their long-term needs are going to be. So, you know, when I look at a Canadian tire, when I look at a Walmart, Walmart, which used to be obviously the gold standard, and you have one of those in your Plaza and don't even have to worry about the rest of the tenant roster. I think you, you try to say now, well, where would they be in five years? Do they still need that kind of footprint? Is there a chance that, you know, we're competing with their own sites and they go somewhere else because they need more or less, you know?   And then when you look at the, the, the rest of the tenants and you look at their rents and you even look at the renewal rates, like, are they really going to be getting those rents? You know, considering that, you know, they spend more on cleaning, they spend more on staff, they're doing a little bit less business than they used to. You know, certainly if you go into the mall and all of a sudden you're allowing two people per store, four people per store, you know, what does that do to their bottom line? It's got to impacted, right? And then you add in, again, the extra cleaning Dexter wages, certainly the profit is going to be decreasing.   You start thinking about supply chain issues, you know, where they're getting their, their items that they're selling their merchandise. Does that cost them more? Are they still able to get it on time again, that affects their profit, which ultimately for them to stay afloat, do you need to come back to your landlord and say, Hey, I'm sorry, guys. I want to stay open, but I need to pay a little bit less. So I think it's more about not just happens right now, but it's really what happens two to five years from now. That's really important from a tenant by tenant perspective.   Jesse (11m 56s): Yeah. That makes sense. In moving over onto that office side, do you, do you, well, I'll say this, do you subscribe to the, this, this idea? I think I'm, I'm partial to, I'm also, you know, obviously biased in, in the Toronto downtown market, but the idea that I think that 24 hour cities are going to come back, whether it's the new Yorks, the Las Vancouver, Toronto, I think suburban offices have held up decently. I think it's, it's a lot of the mid tier, you know, the, the class B class C in mid markets that I think are going to be the questionable questionable office is the ones that aren't connected to the suburbs through transportation.   Like you just, you know, having a car and the ones that aren't downtown connected via all the transit that we have here. What are your thoughts on that?   Andrew (12m 43s): You know, for me, the question is about when people are going to feel comfortable being on public transit, right? So I'm a huge believer in that downtown. I'm a huge believer in, in, you know, not just the hybrid model, but a return to work model, because I truly think people need to be around others to brainstorm, to be more creative, to be more productive. I know we've all been very productive for the last year and a half, but the reality is everything's been shut down. You've had nothing to do blood work, you know, but now as things open up, you know, it's easy to, to, you know, not feel as, you know, energetic or enthusiastic plus you've been, you've been locked up at home for awhile.   You know, when you come into the office, is it just a certain level of energy that, that kicks in, right. And I think for the young people, not that, that I'm so old, but for the young people, you really need to be around to hear what's going on, to learn about deals, to learn about what's going on in the market. You just don't get that from the home. And so I do think the office market will come back strongly in the downtowns across Canada. I just, for me, the question is more, is this six months? Is it a year, is a year and a half. And I think the answer depends on when will people feel comfortable being on transit.   Cause you know, everybody thinks they're going to drive into work. I tell you I live 15 minutes away and it takes me 45 minutes now to drive in with 5% of the people being downtown. And so once everybody's back to work, it's just no chance I'm doing a drive in and out of downtown. So, but I I'm a such a believer in the return of the downtowns and, and it goes the same for buildings, right? I mean, people are not going to be working, living in the suburbs for the rest of their lives. You know, if you have family, that's a different story, but the young people, again, who may be moved home or, or bought a place for our way that I just think they'll, they'll want to come back into the downtown, you know, and once their friends are back and the energy's back, you want to be in and around the downtown.   And you know, that will signify the return of that 24 hour city that you're talking about.   Jesse (14m 38s): Yeah. I think that's born out by most of our experience that we've had with our office. We've, we've opened in October, so not too long ago, officially on, on kind of a rotational basis. And there's definitely that feeling that vibe, you know, just kind of interoffice sports are kind of slowly coming back. And I really felt during COVID or that at least the beginning, I really felt for the individuals that were associates and analysts just coming into our industry only, you know, the time where you should be making the most connections speaking with the most people, they were kind of forced to be at home during that time.   Andrew (15m 12s): Yeah. It's very difficult that you just can't learn the same way when you're at home. You know, you try, I mean, I have a team of analysts and you know, we try to get them on calls. You're calling your client, you get them on, but sometimes you don't get the client, you hang up, they call you back. You can't quite just say, hang on, let me put my house on line. And these are learning opportunities where you just around people and you learn, I mean, I've learned so much by, you know, the, the predecessors or the people that are still our company that had been there before me just listening to them. You know, that's how you learn how to talk to clients. You learn what to say, what not to say, you know, you learn about stuff that's going on in the market.   I mean, these are really valuable things that I really hope that the young people see the value in that. And they forget that it's been easy to work in your jogging pants and, you know, get a workout in, in the middle of the day. But hopefully you'll you realize that the importance of, of being in the office?   Jesse (15m 59s): Yeah. I think the interface, zoom, whatever it is, teams it's, they've got, they've done well, but there's definitely those subtleties. I, in terms of, you know, you mentioned interest rates, you know, I think it kind of went under reported with the fed kind of decoupling their, their target inflation. I'm I'm assuming I, I should be, I should be more up on this for the Canadian side of things, but I assume that we will follow something similar to what what's going on in the states right now you mentioned inflation and, and as a result of eventual, upward pressure on interest rates, how do you view, how do you analyze that?   How do you approach that when from a, from a lending point of view?   Andrew (16m 39s): So I think the challenges with the construction projects, you know, where you have, you're trying to underwrite the future value of the asset upon completion. And you're trying to peg a certain interest rate, a certain ceiling rates that you cannot exceed. So you're structuring your construction financing based on the end value. When you have a certain rate that you can't, when you convert to the term that you cannot exceed. And so, you know, the challenge with, with apartment construction is that the projects take so much longer than they used to.   You know, you start off with approval is taking years now, too. So the pre-development takes a lot longer. The construction is taking longer and you know, whether it's COVID related, whether it's supply global supply chain, disruptions related, you know, everything is taking longer. And so, you know, now you're looking at a project that could be five, six years before you get to completion. So we're essentially trying to peg where the interest rates are going to be in five or six years, because that's what we've tied our construction loan to. So I think that's, to me where I have the biggest concerns, we mitigate that by saying, you know, we're really just focusing on large bores that have liquid assets and very good cash flow in their portfolio.   But a lot of these apartment projects are getting to be very significant. I mean, we're doing projects that are, you know, $200 million upwards of $200 million. That's a lot of exposure. You know, you have a, a 50% basis point 50 basis point rise in interest rates, which could impact your cap rate by 25 basis points. You know, that's a lot of, that's a, that's a big value of sling. And I think if you try to say, look, you know, we're going to increase the interest rate in our underwriting by 50 basis points per year. Or if you're trying to Peggy at five years out, that's two and a half percent.   There's no chance that anything today is going to cover. So it's, it's a bit of a balance, right? But I think the biggest challenges in the multifamily sector, I think, you know, industrial, not so much office, but industrial and retail, usually construction is a lot shorter. And usually you have your leases done right at the beginning. So you don't even have to worry about leasing risk at the end. So it's merely just pegging your construction risk and then how quickly you can turn out the debt. But I think apartments though, you do have some, some serious interest rate.   Jesse (18m 53s): Yeah. At least with industrial construction too. I mean, it's a slab of concrete at, at a certain point. And the, the, the construction itself is simpler. I'm curious, Andrew, when it comes to the underwriting of apartment buildings, for those that don't know that the Canadian market is a bit unique, especially in comparison to the states. A lot of our apartments stock is older stock in terms of the actual, when, you know, when you hear that there's a class, a class apartments in whether, you know, it's in Miami or Boston, we really started building a class not very long ago.   So the projects that, that you would finance or that you would look at geographically, where do you find them clustering and what type of, what type of assets in the apartments fear are you financing? Are you lending on?   Andrew (19m 40s): So there it's our asset class that, that transacts the most. So there is a lot of capital chasing apartments. So the existing portfolios are being bought the existing older buildings. There there's a lot of demand for them. There are a lot of international players that are a lot of Canadian REITs. There are a lot of wealthy families and investors that are still looking to acquire multi reds in Canada. And so that's good because you know where your debt is today, and it's been very cheap.   And so you can lock into a 10 year rate and still get some pretty attractive returns. We send a lot of new rental development over the past five years. And the reason for that is because, you know, it used to be that interest rates were high and rents were low, right? We had rent control for many years and there was no incentive to build apartment buildings. And like you said, the apartment stock in our country is very old and we hadn't had new construction for a very long time. And so the shift happened when interest rates started going lower and lower to the point where we were at historically low levels, the financing environment became a lot more conducive to new development.   And a key part for me was that the tenant profile had changed. So tenants right now, whether you're dealing with retirees cashing in, on their home equity, young professionals that either can't afford or don't want to buy a house right now, or international students, these are very sophisticated pennants that have said, you know, I want a nice building. I want a superior HVAC system. I want amenities like rooftop, patios, and barbecue areas where we can entertain friends. I want gyms in our building. And so this level of demand from the tenants has driven the, the, the, the increase in supply of new apartment buildings.   Now, not all new apartments have been luxury. You know, we've built, you know, call it no frills, new apartment buildings as well. You know, new apartment buildings that maybe don't have the same level of amenities. And we've built those, not just in the major cities, on the major transit nodes, but on the outskirts as well. And so those have been really well received. So I think to your point, our rental stock is very old. And anything new that has been brought into the market has been received very well, because there are lots of people that have the ability to pay more for their rent and want to live in nice places.   And, you know, frankly, the units have gotten smaller, but that's okay because you live in a brand new, beautiful building. And again, you have these great amenities and you have people over, they're not going to be in your, an apartment. They're going to be in the, in the common areas. And so we've seen a lot of new developments in, in that sector. The challenge now is will that continue going forward? And I think, you know, the demand side is definitely there. I think the challenge is in those risks that we're talking about, namely interest rate risks, the fact that the projects have taken longer, they're becoming bigger.   And with the construction costs today, escalating rapidly, you know, the returns are now getting to that point where they don't really make sense. And so this all leads to this affordability crisis that we have in Canada, which is both the home ownership, we're home on affordability issue and the lack of affordability on the rental side. And the challenge is that people don't understand that the issue is a supply issue. It's not a matter of cap, the rents, you can increase rents anymore, or you can't get rid of and evictions.   It's not that the issue is that we don't have enough supply and pre COVID. We were pretty close to 0% vacancy rate across the country. Most cities we're going to get there again, as soon as immigration opens up, as soon as the international students are coming back, as soon as people come back into downtowns to the office, that vacancy rate goes back to zero. And yet here we are with facing a, an, an affordability issue again. And so we need to find a way to solve that.   Jesse (23m 28s): Yeah, I think that is kind of the knee, knee jerk reaction. It's it's these symptoms. I think of the problem that you, you go to like rent evictions or these, these type of things where it's it's, the constraint is supply. And I I'd like to get your thoughts just on the, the history, at least of our market. A lot of it has been this shadow market of condo development, being a proxy or a replacement for what should be purpose-built apartment buildings, people that are fully intending on, on renting. Is that, is that dynamic, do you think that's still happening and will happen between the two asset classes and maybe just a follow-up to that?   If so, is that because of the, the ability to build condos is regulatorily easier than, than a purpose-built right now,   Andrew (24m 18s): I'd say that's a complicated question. So I think traditionally, it was easier to do condos because, you know, you would pre-sell, you would have a certain profit built in there and then you'd go get your financing. And then you start construction. You also had a very level of construction industry where costs were an escalating, like they are today. And your, your development timeframe was a lot shorter than it is today. So it was fairly cookie cutter in that once you, the risk was in picking a site in and getting the pre-sales done, once you did your pre-sales and you locked in your profit, then it was just a matter of building it out.   And it was fairly straightforward. The challenge now on the condo side is that, you know, as a lender, I don't even know if I want our borders to pre-sale or to pre-sell the full, you know, 75 or 80% of the building to cover a loan because frankly cost escalations are so high that it's going to eat them through their profit pretty quickly. And then I don't really want them losing their motivation halfway through the project where we funded half. And now all of a sudden there's no profit left. So it's, it's very challenging as a lender to decide, you know, what do you want, do you want pre-sales or not?   Having said that the price is the sale price is seemed to continue to escalate and costs are not slowing down. And, but the, the sales side is not slowing down either. So you're seeing sale prices per square foot that are getting higher and higher in Toronto. So condo projects right now still make sense. The challenge is that the rental side no longer makes sense. And so we need to find a way to continue to enhance, you know, entice, I guess, developers to build the, you know, rental product because we need it.   But I think the difference between the two, I mean, personally, I would rather be in a, in a purpose still rent the building. You've got professional management, you've got a building full of renters that are going to be there. Long-term with the condos, there's constant turnover. People aren't as careful with the buildings, you know, it's just not the same crowd, but having said that they both been successful. And so that tells you that there's a lot of demand for whether it's condos or whether it's new rentals. The idea is that people want to live in newer, nicer buildings with nicer amenities.   And so right now the condo market seems to be really strong. Again, the rental market seems to be picking up as well again. And I think longterm they're both going to continue to be successful. The challenge is, will there be enough enticement to the developers to build rental, or are people all just going to, to condos now and be selling that because you can still make it work from a condo perspective.   Jesse (26m 49s): And as, as asset value is safer, multifamily increase and, and net operating income also continues to increase. Where do we hit that point of like that unaffordable point? And I guess more importantly from a policy perspective, w what do we do to, to ameliorate that aspect of, of what looks like the direction our market's going in?   Andrew (27m 12s): So I think the challenge is, so right now you have a federal government that has a very strong immigration platform, which is great for the economy, which is great for housing. It's really good all around. I mean, you know, as a, as a fellow immigrant, I know that people come here because they want a better life, right? So they come and they want to work hard and they want to, you know, own something, their house or a business. And so it adds a lot of value to the economy. So you want to continue to encourage that. So the federal government has done that. They're also offering financing through groups like CMAT, you know, to encourage development, the provinces are doing their part because they're giving grants at different levels.   And the municipalities are trying as well. They're, they're waiving development charges for affordable units. They're waiving taxes. The problem is that they're operating independently. And as a group, they need to come together to, to sacrifice a little bit more to say, what is it that we can each give up in order to balance the equation that the developers have? Because right now, what the government is offering is not enough to support for the development. I mean, these developers are building two, three, 4% cap rates.   And again, with the longer timeframe, and you were saying five, six years, by the time you're fully leased, that's a lot of time to wait and a lot of risks from an interest rate perspective and cap rate perspective and ultimately valuation perspective. So, you know, if it's barely interesting right now for developer to build, and they're only doing two or three, 4% cap rate, and that's assuming that everything pans out, you're just going to lose them, right? And so what can we do? We need to come together. We need to shorten from a municipal perspective, we need the shorter shorten approval times, you know, approve or reject an application within six months.   It can take two years, you know, maybe entice them, give them more density, but they have to build a certain amount affordable. But then you waive development charges on the full building, not just on the units that are affordable. Maybe you wave Realty taxes on the whole building, not just on the affordable units. These are things that, that have to happen in order for us to, to stimulate development. I mean, ultimately, look, if you're a developer, you have two sides of the equation, right? You have the development side, which right now costs are through the roof, and you need to reduce that.   And so from a government perspective, you can only help with agency self-assessment tax, where you can help out by waving or reducing development charges, or by, by maybe subsidizing land. But then once it's built on the operational side, if you're trying to put a cap on the rent that they can charge, and you're trying to entice them to reduce the rent to an affordable level, you have certain expense line items that can be adjusted. You can't adjust, you can't adjust insurance, which is going through the roof as well. You can't adjust wages.   I mean, again, huge inflationary pressures on wages and the staff. And so the only thing you can do is you can adjust Realty taxes, which is the municipality. So this is my point. Like the, you have to look at both sides, the development costs and the operational side, and, and is at all levels of government, we have to come together and we have to piece it to then entice these developers to provide more housing, which then in turn will, will alleviate your, your housing problem.   Jesse (30m 28s): Yeah, that's interesting because even on the office side, I think they've phased most of them out, but the tiger grants that we have where we're the tax incremental aspects of, of basically assisting whether it was developers or large tendencies with, with the tax piece, it's like, that's only one piece of the equation. And it's funny, we had, we had John Love on the program and other, you know, big name in Canadian commercial real estate, who said the same thing. It was a coordination problem with, with the different provinces that, you know, people need to be talking collectively and, and the federal government and the provinces need to need to work at this project.   Not, not unilaterally, but together. I'm curious if you want to pivot to an asset class. That was how I got started into, into the industry. And I know it's something that I wanted to chat with you about on the student residence, a student rental market in general, I think at the beginning of COVID just like you were mentioning before with our thoughts that apartments might be, you know, might be in trouble. And then it turns out they did pretty well compared to the comparatively. My first thought was when this happened, the first few months was that student rentals were going to get hit the hardest, just in, just in virtue of the nature of the pandemic.   How, how has the student rental market been, what, what has been the experience that you've seen over the last year or two?   Andrew (31m 47s): You know, I think as an asset class, they struggled a little bit and, and frankly, you know, they did because all of a sudden they had no students, right. And, and in the privately owned residences, you know, people stayed in, they weren't sure if they should go home or not. I think in the ones that were either owned by a university or managed by a university, you know, they allowed people to leave and basically let them walk out of their leases. But that's, to me was a shorter blimp. I mean, I absolutely love this asset class. I think it's got the most upside in, in Canadian real estate, you know, student housing to me, you know, when you think of it back when you're younger than me, but when we used to go to school, it was cinder blocks.   It was ugly buildings. It was, you know, poor locations, you know, the, the knock on it was you had eight month leases and you had kids that would just trash the place, right. I mean, that is completely gone. Now, you know, we do so much student housing at first Nash. Then I tell you, these buildings are unbelievable. I mean, you'll have, first of all, the wifi, capacity's huge. And it's the number one, you know, by far most important element in, in the decision of a, of a student. So that's different. They have amenities like gyms and, and, you know, again, these rooftop patios and study rooms and indoor parking and 24 hour security.   So that's from a tenant perspective, it's a dream they're located very close to campus in most cases. And from an operational perspective, I mean, these kids are now, they realize how lucky they are to be in those places. Their 12 month leases, they have parental guarantees. Sometimes they have cross tenant guarantees. So there's no issues with damage. And, and from a demand perspective, there's so much demand, you know, we have, we're, Canada's huge for international students. You know, I'm not sure if you know, but there, I think that the number is 5 million international students and Canada's third behind the U S and Australia.   Our education system is amazing. Our universities are ranked really well in the world. And so there's a lot of demand for these universities. Most of the students that are coming in have money there for them, whether they're paying $750 per month or $800, it doesn't really move the needle too much. And so you have really strong demand and equally important is the fact that it's the one asset class that is a great protection for inflation, right? Because you have 50% turnover every year.   And so unlike retail or industrial or office where you're locked into long-term leases for apartments, where you're maybe five to 10% turnover per year in student housing, you get 50% turnover. So it's the only asset class that allows you to truly capture the inflation should that materialize. So I think from a demand perspective, you're good from an operational perspective, you're good from a inflation perspective, you good? So I I'm very bullish on, on student housing and the quality of these purpose-built buildings are very high.   I mean, as a, as a parent, I can tell you that if my choice was a basement apartment for my kids with three other friends or one of those buildings, it's a no brainer we try to take and I'd be happy to pay more.   Jesse (34m 53s): Yeah, for sure. And I think when I started investing, it was in Waterloo. I went to school out there and that was, I think, kind of when I was finishing, they started to build these purpose built and, you know, pool rooms, gyms, like, eh, like everything you're describing here. And then the other piece is even compared to, in juxtaposition to regular apartments, where you have tenants that will stay in because we still have rent stabilization in Ontario or rent control in Ontario, you have the turnover. So you have the natural mark to market with, with the rents with student rentals that I think gets overlooked probably through the haze of this idea that students are just trashing these places, which it, you know, if you see, if you see the way that they're built today is not the case.   I'm curious when you are for student rentals, because you see a lot of these companies in, in the, in the states and in Canada that are signing up, sorry, they're, they're buying properties, they're developing them. And then they're actually taking on the property management of the companies. Is that, is that something that's being looked at holistically when you're underwriting those deals?   Andrew (35m 59s): Yeah. I mean, look much like seniors, housing, student housing is very much an operational business. So, you know, as much as I love the asset class, I think the caveat is you have to know what you're doing from an operational perspective. I mean, there's a different level of rapport you have to have with your tenants. You interact a lot more. They're very spontaneous. They want things immediately, right? Like they can't, I have a request for something to be fixed and you get two days later, it has to be immediate. You have to address things right away. So there's a different dynamic with your tenants at the same time.   Look, you are getting substantially higher rents because of this. So there's very much an operational component to the business. And I think the good operators don't know how to do that. And they can create synergies, especially if they have a larger portfolio. And so that's really important. So we do look at who the operator is, and it does make a difference that, you know, you're not a one-off and you understand what it's like to be and manage that asset class. You know, I think the more and more we're seeing consolidation in that as well.   I mean, we're, we're, you know, we're happy to have, you know, aligned with some Woodburn who are the top two operators in that field, and we can see how great they are managing their portfolio, because they understand again, how to manage. And they create synergies by having so many buildings in that, you know, a new player out of the U S Harrison street there they're coming in as well. And they've had experienced operating student housing in the U S so you're starting to see international interest in this asset class. You know, there's, there's squad Rio there, RBC, there are people that are large Canadian institutional investors, CPP, you know, who have large international portfolios, and they've never come into the Canadian market because it was too fragmented and it was too small.   And you know, now that there'll be some amalgamation now that you're starting to see players develop bigger portfolios, I think there'll be more interest because somebody that's large can come in and buy a large portfolio versus the one-off, which again is not going to move the needle. So, you know, again, I love the asset class, but I think it's, it's really important to understand the operational aspect of it, to know that what you, you know, when you're going into it, you need really need to know what you're, what you're doing and how you're dealing with   Jesse (38m 13s): On the, on the construction side for, for student rental, are you seeing companies that are building completely from scratch in some of these towns or, or actually buying existing existing properties and, and converting the use or, or, you know, changing something to student residents, whether that's complete change of use or just adding to the existing?   Andrew (38m 34s): Yeah, I think all of the above, you know, we've seen traditionally, it's been the one-off developers that have built, and then they've sold, you know, to the larger players, like the likes of Woodburn and align best. We're seeing these companies partner up with developers now as well for future developments. We have seen, you know, people come in and buy finished products with the hope that they'll be able to acquire more in that market. I mean, there are certain markets that, you know, certainly Waterloo has had a lot of development.   Kingston near Queens has had a lot of development. Toronto has had a lot of development, you know, I think though for the most part, what people don't understand is that these universities are full and the buildings, the good quality buildings are full as well. And so if you're building a good project, I don't think there's a risk for over-saturation. You know, I'm not worried about what a loo being oversaturated, because when you look at the enrollment, it's increasing substantially every year, and these kids again are coming from abroad, or they're coming from Toronto, or they come from Montreal, they come from other cities, they're there for the quality of the university.   And they're gonna pay if they're paying so much for tuition, they're certainly going to pay an extra a hundred dollars a month to live in a brand new purpose-built building over a, you know, an old basement apartment. So I think the good quality buildings in these places are full and the good operators know how to run them, to keep them full. So I'm, I, I do believe that that this will continue. You know, the other thing is some of the universities own buildings on campus, but they're old buildings, you know, they need retrofitting and to do that, you need to really gut them.   You need to empty them and got them and start them almost, you know, from the beginning, which means there's a, they're gonna decrease supply. Right. Which means that you're going to need more, you know, off-campus supplies. So that, that helps as well. The markets.   Jesse (40m 29s): Yeah, for sure. Andrew, we have four questions. We ask every guests at the end of the show and want to be conscientious of your time before we, before we get into that, we'd just love your thoughts on, on where you see opportunity in maybe the, the short to mid term in, in whether it's Canadian market us, you pick,   Andrew (40m 50s): I would say the only asset class that I really like is the one we just talked about, student housing. I just, I liked the protection against inflation. And I liked the fact that your tenants are not rent sensitive. I would say that is probably my only real opportunity. I mean, I still like multi-racial development providing that it's in the right markets and you have a very longterm outlook on it. You know, I don't think you should be building an apartment building if you have a five-year timeframe.   I think if you're a generational investor and you're building good quality real estate, that you're gonna pass through generations, I still like rent a multifamily, but you know, if you're just buying for the short term, I don't like it as much.   Jesse (41m 35s): Gotcha. All right, Andrew, if you're good to go with these all, I'll fire them off at. Yeah. All   Andrew (41m 40s): Right. Let's see it.   Jesse (41m 42s): Okay. What is something that, you know, now in your career, it can be in first national or, or business in general, you wish you knew when you, when you got started in this industry,   Andrew (41m 55s): You know, I would say understanding the, you need to add value to be properly compensated. And I would say, you know, don't be afraid to ask, to get paid, providing the, you add value. You know, most people, you know, they're always uncomfortable too. And I was too, too, oh, I got to talk about fees now. Well, that's who I got to ask to get paid, but you know what? I've come to realize over the years, if you truly add value, you should get compensated for, for your services.   You know, nobody works for free and you know, you should get paid. But the key though is understand how you add value. So understand who you're dealing with and what it is that you can provide to make that person, that company, that board, that developer better, you know, how do you enhance their life? To me, it's about, you know, making people money, saving the money and mitigating the risks. You know, these are the, this is sort of the mantra I live by. You know, when I talk to somebody it's like, can I help you make more money? Can I help you save money? And can I help mitigate your risk?   If you do these things, you're adding value. And if you add value, I think you should get properly compensated for it.   Jesse (43m 2s): What does mentorship mean to you? And what would you, what piece of advice would you give the younger individuals coming into our industry?   Andrew (43m 11s): You know, mentorship for me was huge. I mean, you know, everything I know in this industry started with Maury and I am forever grateful for, for his mentorship and his guidance and his, you know, introduction to people and watching him, you know, how he talked and how he dealt with people. It was, it was really useful for me. I think as a young person, you know, try really hard to be around good people and try to listen as much as you can. You know, there's so much knowledge and the people that had been around in the industry for a long time, they have so much knowledge, you know, of how deals work of real estate of just so many tidbits that you can pick up along the way.   I would say, if he can really put yourself in an office that's surrounded by and surround yourself with good people, you know, really do that, which is why I'm so adamant about people coming back to work. Cause I think that's the only way you can really learn. You know, you're not going to learn by being on a team skull, you know, you need to be there in person. So surround yourself with good people and just be a sponge, try to learn as much as you can also have a really long term outlook. You know, don't focus too much on what am I going to get paid today? You know, what's my job title today. Think about, you know, what is it that you can learn and are you around good people?   Because if you are, then you're going to learn a lot and you're going to, you know, benefit more in the long run. That's   Jesse (44m 33s): Great. What a book recommendation would, would you be able to give our listeners, we can put it up in the show notes,   Andrew (44m 41s): Huh? Atlas drug, but that's about a thousand pages and that takes a really long time.   Jesse (44m 47s): That's hilarious. I, that is the first we've gotten that. That's a, that's pretty good. And that is a long one though.   Andrew (44m 53s): You know, I, I thought the Steve jobs book was interested in the way he constantly challenged the status quo. You know, whether you like them or didn't like him as a person, I just loved the creativity and the ability to constantly challenge that I'm not satisfied with this, make it better. I want this. And every idea of his was always challenged and questioned, but that's how you create new things. Amazing things.   Jesse (45m 16s): I'll take us a month to make, okay, we need it next week. Last question. The, a nice softball first car make and model   Andrew (45m 26s): A Ford tempo, Ford   Jesse (45m 28s): Tempo. I   Andrew (45m 29s): Like it.   Jesse (45m 31s): That's funny. We had a, we had a Ford Fairlane on which I think, I think it was a car that my dad drove back in the seventies, but that's the first Ford tempo right on Andrew for first of all, thank you so much for coming on for individuals that if they're in the area or want to reach out connect, where's the best place for them to go   Andrew (45m 51s): LinkedIn or the first national website? My contact is there,   Jesse (45m 55s): I guess today has been Andrew Drexler. Andrew, thank you for being part of working capital.   Andrew (45m 60s): My pleasure, Jesse. Thank you.   Jesse (46m 9s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

Church for Entrepreneurs
How to handle gotcha questions about your faith

Church for Entrepreneurs

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 10:00


Daily Word - Today's culture is increasingly hostile toward believers in Christ. Because of this, some people are on a mission to harm you economically by asking you “gotcha” questions about your faith. For example, you might be asked about homosexuality, transgenderism, abortion, etc. If your answer goes against the culture's viewpoint then they will attempt to ostracize you, get you fired, or have other businesses stop doing business with your business. Learn how to handle these gotcha questions. Links - Join, Partner

Broken Window Garden
"Residue" - October 23, 2021

Broken Window Garden

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 23, 2021 23:15


Samples of Brené Brown, Gotcha the Cockatoo, and more.

Spiritual Dope
Jesse Harless is a leader in the addiction recovery and mental health space

Spiritual Dope

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 17, 2021 49:40


JESSE HARLESS is a leader and facilitator in the addiction recovery and mental health space. As CEO of Entrepreneurs in Recovery®, he facilitates highly experiential online and in-person events that help individuals and purpose-driven organizations harness their strengths, elevate purpose, and build safety. Jesse holds a MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from Rivier University and is a FEARS coach, HeartMath® certified trainer, and bestselling author of If Not You, Then Who?. To learn more, visit www.JesseHarless.com. Unknown Speaker 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general You're so limited as Bob process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the questions you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world, the people in it, and most importantly, how do I proceed now moving forward. We don't claim to have all the answers but we sure do love Living in the Time for another hit of spirituality Brandon Handley 0:36 here today with Jesse Harless. He is a leader and facilitator in the addiction recovery and mental health space. as CEO of entrepreneurs and recovery. He facilitates highly experiential, online and in person events to help individuals and purpose driven organizations harness their strengths, elevate purpose and build safety. Jessie holds an MA in clinical mental health counseling from revere University and is a fierce Coach heartmath certified trainer and best selling author of if not you, then who? To learn more, visit Jesse Harless calm. Jesse, you know, you and I were just talking a second here, you and I met. It's been about four years ago. And it's just, it's amazing to see, you were saying you just started your journey, how far you've come along now. And even then, I was a fairly heavy drinker, then, at that point in time, and I don't think we I don't think we ended up doing a podcast, we did like an introduction, we had some conversation. What's interesting that I'd like to share with you I mean, it's been it's been nearly four years since I've had a drink. So it was shortly after you and I connected that, you know, I stopped drinking. And, you know, you had some spiritual experiences myself, which led into spiritual dope. So welcome back. You know, it's great to reconnect and you know, love to hear kind of what's going on with you right now. Jesse Harless 1:57 Yeah, well, congratulations on four years of recovery. That's awesome. And yeah, what a journey I'm sure that's been. And yeah, I'm, I'm grateful to be here. I'm grateful to have this discussion with you. And four years later, it's been it was four years this month, when I started out as an entrepreneur and left my job. So just a Brandon Handley 2:16 hell of a journey, right? A little a little scary, no doubt, especially especially the past past year or so probably, probably kind of scary for you, in terms of like, how is this all going to work out? I like to start this off with the whole idea, Jessie, that you and I are vehicles for source energy, God energy, whatever, whatever. You know, whatever you feel like that is, and it speaks through us. And if there's somebody on the other line that's listening in on the podcast today, that's going to hear a message that can only be delivered by Jesse through this podcast at this time. What is that message today? Jesse? Jesse Harless 2:51 Well, I mean, just like anything, I'm living by my heart and intuition, so it's whatever needs to come out today whoever's listening to this, you know, that's what's going to come out and that's how I live I'm an intentional person, intentional man, I set intentions every day and you know, that I let go, you know, it's about who I'm being not what I'm doing. So um, you know, that's really where I'm at today is just letting go. Brandon Handley 3:16 Of that is, uh, you know, I had a guy when I was doing the follow up for the rest of this podcast who didn't like the word intention. And I really, you know, I really couldn't put a finger on it. Has anybody ever kind of given you pushback or guff using that word yourself? Jesse Harless 3:38 No, I think if you know the definition, then you understand what it means and you'll understand that it's very powerful word just means what is your deepest desire your primary motivation that's all it is it doesn't have to be spiritual it's just your deepest desire primary motivation so instead of me getting up and and saying oh, I'm gonna get seven things done today and I'm gonna do all this stuff and you know, I'm going to do that anyways. So instead I'd rather set intentions and be like, you know, my intention today is to be present. My intention today is to be here now my intention is to be connected. So that's that's how I look at it as a way to get clear on my primary motivation and deepest desires for the day Brandon Handley 4:14 right No, that's me that's perfect and and to be honest with you, that was my view. I was like, how can you have a problem with the word intention and there's there's something behind it like there's something kind of like purpose driven. And like you're saying, you've got you following your kind of heart and intuition and you couple that with like, the intention and you've got something really the drive after with that. And also saw that, you know, your heart Master Trainer as well, what's that been like for you to kind of hop into that space? And, you know, are there people out there that might call that pseudo science and then like, what's your reaction been there? Jesse Harless 4:50 Yeah, definitely. It made people call, you know, eating fruit pseudoscience. So I mean, it's just, you know, it's each his own. And I think, you know, heart math is Something that came into my wheelhouse. After I went to the global event in Mexico, I was a co facilitator, I was invited to go out and meet the founders. And they ran this big global event. So as I facilitated on stage with them, and got to feel out their tribe, and the people who is who are involved over 100 people, I, you know, I said, Wow, there's something to this, let me investigate it. And they have all this technology, they have all this technology that actually, there's a piece of technology called the inner balance, and it actually can monitor heart coherence. So if that's pseudoscience, and I don't know what sciences, because that's backed by 400, peer reviewed studies, the the actual work that they're doing so, you know, if anything, it's more science and math or science I've seen because of the amount of studies they have. So yeah, it's it's a really interesting thing to think about. It's not suffered, we were taught in high school or growing up, but definitely, really something interesting to know that the, the heart in itself can take a memory, and this whole books on this, and the heart has its own nervous system. And I don't think people understand that, and that's okay. But it would be worth maybe researching. So yeah, so I got, I got certified and what's called heartmath interventions program, which is for I'm a clinical mental health counselor. So like, it's one of the things that I've done in a past life, but not really a past life, I just did it for my masters. And so that I did that training, which is for practitioners. And then, and then I went on to do the, what's called activating the heart of teams, which is bringing heart math into companies. And so yeah, it's been quite a journey, it's it's really interesting to use the self regulation techniques. So they're not teaching like meditation or teaching self regulation, which is probably the most important thing we could have ever in the history of the world is learning how to self regulate stress during all this pandemic stuff. And all this stuff we've been through. So yeah, it's it's a really interesting. It's a really interesting business concept. And I think that once you explore that, it's backed in a lot of the science of the heart, when we know about heart brain coherence. It's really much deeper than what I think people understand. Brandon Handley 7:13 Promise super high level, what is heart brain coherence? Jesse Harless 7:18 Well, it's a ways for your, your actual physical heart, to start to get into harmony and balance with your actual mind. And the way that can happen is through deep breathing is one of the ways or this conversation, as we didn't accommodate this conversation, we're still gonna, we're gonna feel a sense of like, not exactly flow, but you could call it that might be one way to describe it. And that's coherence. It's like these perfect sine waves. So both of our hearts were connected to the inner balance machine, we would actually see this coherence between both of our heart rate variability. So there's a space between the heart rhythms or the heartbeat. And the space in between the heartbeat is these heart rhythms, you can measure them. And if you're angry and resentful, which you might have been before, when you were drinking all the time, that is, we would have hooked up your heart, or let's say, know your heart, but hooked up your, let's say, with that machine that actually is Bluetooth and connects to your ear. So we would see through your heart rhythms, that you would have this really this rigidity, we would have saw this rigidity in your heart rate variability, because you'd have been angry, resentful, probably a little snappy. But when we're when you're in the flow, and now maybe at times in the morning, during your coffee or prayer, you're you're you're in the state of coherence, and we can actually see these perfect sine waves, which is these perfect waves that are created when you're in this state of heart, brain harmony. So that's the most simplest way there's scientific ways to explain it. But to keep it really simple, there's just the heart and the mind coming into balance and coming into harmony. And you do it all the time. It's happening all the time. But you know, you can also measure it now, which is kind of neat. Brandon Handley 9:02 And that, being able to measure that does not allow you to figure out ways to get into coherence. And if I'm kind of following a little bit here, that would also help you and your self regulation. Jesse Harless 9:14 Exactly. It's all about self regulation. Because if you're in a state of coherence, you are regulating your state, your emotional state, your spiritual state, your mental state, it's coming into balance, so that you're actually feeling like, Oh, and by the way, you know, the studies that they've shown is that even your immune system is boosted. When you're in a state of coherence, it can actually boost your immune system, it can really release certain hormones that help boost immunity. So it affects your memory, it affects your performance. So if you want to have higher performance, you want to have greater memory, getting in a state of coherence. This is what athletes do is what CEOs text, you know, tech startup people who are really trying to get out there and make a difference in the world. They'll use these coherence techniques. They're called coherence techniques. self regulation techniques, but they're specifically called coherence techniques. And this is a way for the mind to have like, and some people would say, like, if you're talking about Joe dispenza, and these different people, they would say, you'd have super memory, you know, and Stephen, you know, okay, again, some people would call that pseudoscience. But other people would say, that's changed my life. So it's one of those things where, you know, when I was on the outside of it just kind of looking in, it was kind of like, Well, you know, I don't really know. And then when I was deep inside of it, and having all the studies and reading from all these doctors, and really looking at the work, and then doing it myself for over two years, you know, that's all the anecdotal evidence and actual peer reviewed evidence that I needed to be like, wow, this is something that's happening all the time in teams, high performing teams are in a state of group or team coherence. And that's why that's why they're performing at a high level. Brandon Handley 10:58 So outside of outside of where I work, I've never heard anybody else really kind of talk about like high performing teams, right? So love to love to kind of touch on what that looks like. From from this perspective, like what's it look like to approach like a large business right now. And I think that I think that we're on like this cusp of of this type of conversation being easier and easier to, to approach like a large business to say, hey, I want to talk to you about your team and your heart mind coherence, and, you know, how that can be beneficial to you? What's the reception like? What's I guess? What's the pitch like for that? And then, you know, what's the, what's the reception man? Jesse Harless 11:39 Well, I, you know, to back up a little bit. So heart math is not my primary selling tool, you know, so I'm a professional facilitator. So I have been trained in what's called exchange facilitation. And so that's what actually taught me how to actually get in front of people, and actually how to make conversations worth have having happen. And and create a state where there's actual opportunities to experience change, where instead of being the, you know, the, the guru with all the answers at the front, the guy the sage on the on the guide on the side, who's helping people to facilitate conversations worth having that the company is not having. And so coming into a company, that's primarily what I do is I help them tune into their innate resilience. Now, on top of that, as a small segment of the time I have with them, which could be a 60 minute Lunch and Learn or it could be a two hour three hour event, I will bring in something like a heart brain coherence technique, because this is being used by state troopers. This is being used by the US Navy, this is being used by major institutions. So I'm bringing that in at one piece, to teach them how they can self regulate, which is a huge thing for HR. Because with the rise and climb of marijuana, and rise and climb of alcohol use and mental health decline in the workplace right now, which is probably the worst we've seen, there's never been a better time to start to teach self regulation techniques. But that's not the primary reason I'm hired to come in. And my primary reason for coming in is to teach innate resilience, to teach them to start to be able to co create or crowdsource their highest strengths, crowdsource success factors of why they're a high performing team. So that's kind of primarily where I'm coming in. And then when I'm there, it's like sneaking the medicine with the cheese. Now that I'm there, now I'm going to teach them a technique that they're not going to be learning during their nine to five, I'm going to bring it to them as like a heart mass certified trainer or a clinician, because I'm technically a clinician, so I'll bring into teach self regulation, only for a small segment of it. But it can be a significant opportunity for them to start to just practice deep breathing and heart brain coherence. Brandon Handley 13:51 Gotcha. Let's talk a little bit about the path of like, headed into sobriety, right, like what were some of the what were some of the things that flipped a switch for you got you into wanting to be sober? And what are some of the steps that you took, you know, who was suggested before this Jesse? Right? And, you know, the reason I like to do this is one of the one of the things that I was actually interviewed last night. But similar podcast is like, some people forget where they came from, right? And it's like, well, we're, you know, Justin, you might have been a sinner before you became a saint. Right? And yeah, so who was the center, Jesse versus the st. Jesse, what we're seeing right now. And we're it's transition, Jesse Harless 14:38 where you got to ask yourself, what is addiction? What does even mean? So we know what the definition of addiction is, which is, diction is, you know, according to gabber, Ma Tei, is anything that you do repeatedly. That causes pleasure in the short term, but has negative consequences in the long term. So when I say that definition of addiction, I just called out about 99% of your audience out there have addiction or probably 100 Because there's something in their life that they're doing that that does have pleasure, maybe they're eating at night, like 11 o'clock at night, they're still eating, you know, food addiction, maybe they're caretaking. Maybe they're people pleasing. Maybe they're all about validation at work. These are all addictions. So, you know, for me my addiction, hold on one second, Brandon's gotta grab a little sip of water here. Thank you. So, for me, addiction started with trauma, because trauma is the root cause of addiction for most people. Now, when people say think of trauma, they think of sexual abuse, or they think of physical abuse. But that's not just what trauma is. trauma is includes that but trauma could be your best friend moving away when you were nine years old. Trauma could be the divorce your parents had at seven. There's there's many, many different ways that people experienced trauma, which is can be physical, it can affect your nervous system. So for me, when I was a child, my dad left at four never came back, never saw him again in person. And it was also in a car accident, I put him in a coma for 22 days, so so he had brain damage permanently. So at four years old, I experienced significant trauma. And then we moved a bunch of times. So from that point on, it set the stage of how I was going to self regulate my emotions, how I was going to regulate my, you know, my little nervous system. And the reality was, I didn't have a lot of coping mechanisms. So when it up happening is I found things ways to numb out. And then eventually I picked up physical substances, like drugs, like alcohol. But that didn't come to later. That came probably when I my first year of college, you know, I dabbled before that. But when I got that first year of college, that's when I started to really jump into substances and alcohol. And when I flunked out of college, which then added to my trauma, because now I'm the only son to ever attempt college and I failed. I'm the only person in my family to attempt college and I fail. And so now I feel the unworthiness again, which is an addiction and a trauma in itself. Because you can become addicted to your unworthiness. So I actually felt like a piece of shit. And then when end up happening at 20, my father died. And even though he wasn't in my life, when he died, it was my It was the first time I used cocaine. And so that's all it took at 20 was for me to have that experience and chase after that for the next two years, to bring me all the way to a place where I was going to go to prison because of it. So that's kind of what happened to me. That's my story. And then I found recovery at 22. And it wasn't, you know, wasn't like an option. It was like prison or recovery. So I was like, Okay, I'm going to do the recovery, of course, I'm not going to go to federal prison, because I didn't have state level charges was federal. So I'm like, I'm gonna change my life. So 22 got into recovery. And then from there, recovery kept evolving. So recovery, recovery met at 22. And what it means now for 16 years later, almost is different. But some of the fundamentals are the same. So that's kind of the higher level backstory of that. Brandon Handley 18:07 Yeah, thanks for sharing and and Jesse just because, right? Sometimes some people are still stuck maybe in, in between, right in between, like, hey, maybe I'm going through recovery right now, my life has always been shit. And I've always had this unworthiness. And, you know, I've always been looking for these ways to numb out and I don't know if my lives are gonna turn around. And you're proof, though, of like, you know, how can you take what you went through? and turn it around? and turn it into something useful for others, right? How can you All right, now that you've been through this process, and you figured out ways to regulate, and you figured out some of the signs and symptoms, and you've got a way that you can help people now because of what you've been through? Jesse Harless 18:54 Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's lived experience, I've helped a lot of men, I've helped a lot of women throughout my last 16 years, I'm very blessed that I was able to do that. But I also learned a lot about addiction. And I learned a lot about myself. So I think that's the key is like, at some stage of the game, you have to take a look at your own deal. You have to look at like, what's really running my life? Am I running my life? Or is my trauma running my life? Am I running my life? Or is my emotional addictions running my life? So that's really where, you know, for me, I had to take a hard look at that later into recovery. I wasn't even able to see a lot of that until later on in recovery, to really understand the role trauma plays, and the way that emotional injuries that had happened in the past was still playing into adulthood. And it was causing me not to step into the mature masculine man, it was still keeping me stuck. It was keeping me in that loop of a wounded spiritual ego. And I see a lot of that happening in recovery. So I think that that's where, for me, that's the stage of the journey I'm in now. I was I wasn't there 10 years ago, but now I'm in that stage of the journey of taking a hard look, that there was no initiation into manhood. There was no You know, steps for me to feel whole and feel like I could step up and do what I needed to do. And now today, I do feel that, and one of the reasons is because I have gotten out of my comfort zone, I have faced a lot of fears. And I've had done, I've done it with a lot of support, because I realized that asking for help was the number one thing that is the wounded masculine, is not asking for help, even in recovery. So that's where, you know, these are things that took a while to come into my wheelhouse, you know, these are blind spots. But once I surrounded myself with certain men, certain people that could understand that and were living that it was like, oh, wow, this is how I want to live now. And that's when, you know, entrepreneurship, and this idea of a new type of freedom started to happen, because I realized that like, Oh, I'm still operating in many ways, from loops that are happening when I was 20. So that's not serving me as a loving adult. Brandon Handley 20:58 We're talking about like the wounded ego, spiritual ego, in recovery, and people getting kind of stuck in a loop, what's something that you've been able to learn or figure out that can help somebody get get past that? Jesse Harless 21:11 Well, I think a lot of people are stuck in there. They're like, stuck in ways that they don't even understand like that there is a way out because they're already in recovery. So they kind of feel like this. Is it. Like, I don't think it's better than this, but I'm just grateful. But that's the whole problem. It's like you're, but I'm grateful. It's like, No, you're not. So the reality is you're not grateful. So what are we going to do about it, and part of it is really getting clear of your purpose. When you start to get clear of your purpose, that's when all of these things pop up. Soon as you're like, Oh, I'm going to go write that book. That's when all the boom, that trauma comes up, oh, I'm going to go do this. I'm going to travel here, I'm going to take my family here, I'm going to make this happen, I'm going to start this business, all of a sudden, all these fears come up. And what we can do is we can numb out emotionally, or we can run towards them, ask for help get a coach, talk to someone who's been there, get a mentor, and then go forward towards the fear, feel the fear and do it anyway. So it's kind of like that idea that your fears are the compass to where your full potential is. So so that it's that simple. Like when you if you feeling that way in recovery, and especially if you're not feeling that way, because you're not in recovery, either way, you can actually feel it when you go out and go to do something that you know is going to benefit your life and you can't do it. That's that those are the things that are blocking you from your purpose. And you can say divine purpose, because I believe we all have one of those So, so the that's the compass. And so when I, when I left my job four years ago, this month, I came up against the greatest fears I ever faced, because I realized, like, Oh my god, I was playing it small inside of the company, not living out my true potential. And as soon as I left, and I had to figure things out, it was like, Oh, my God, what did I do, but it was also the most exciting journey of my life. Because I could finally start to see how I was playing much smaller than what I'm capable of. And four years later to, it's still expanding, it's still growing, you know, because when you're on your own now you have to figure out how you're going to make a living without having someone to support and you know, there's nothing wrong by the way with having a job that's I'm not knocking a job I had 18 years, but what I'm saying is, for me, I had to make the jump, because I needed to get that that on the other side of that healing so I could help others and serve others. Brandon Handley 23:30 But know that that's awesome, right? I think that the idea to have surrounding yourself by some of those strong and encouraging men to get you there. Right? And haven't haven't that kind of support. And then you're talking about that jump to was a have another buddy of mine that I always make the joke of nobody makes their first leap right? It's really, it is very, very matrix II like you know, trying to make that leap from your corporate your corporate gig and you kind of got almost a protection there, right? And then now you're like, Alright, well I'm gonna drop all that I'm gonna try and make this jump and in the movie, of course, you know, he falls and hits his face and it's all kind of bloodied. It's just like it's all in the mind, though. Right? In the matrix, right? Real similar to these fears that you're butting up against the sun was thinking about Jeopardy, that science experiment where you put the penny on top of the water. surface tension never did that. So I mean, basically, you can float a penny on top of water just because of surface tension. That's real close real similar to our fears, right? You can do it. And there's that tension right there on the edge. But right past that edge is where the breakthrough happens, right? everything kind of opens up and that's where the growth is. And it's unlimited, right? I mean, that's kind of the beauty of it. That's what I'm hearing you say to right like it's just keeps growing and growing and growing. Yep. Jesse Harless 24:50 Yeah. And never and never stops. Really. Because what I thought I hit I, you know, the beginning of this year was one of the hardest times of my life. And you know, I figured out Well, no, the hardest time My life are over there already past those already had those when I was 22. And it happened this year. And I realized that like, Oh my god, there's higher ceilings I can get, I can break through higher ceilings, and that's what happened this year. And it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. So that's where, you know, it's exciting because there is unlimited growth potential. And I think that's what life is about is, is living on that edge. But like not living on the edge, so that, like you're drinking alcohol and doing drugs every day, and you're barely making it by someone I mean, I mean, like living on the edge of like, Oh, I'm, I'm a little too comfortable right now I need to figure out where can I push myself and also take care of myself, you know, put myself first and have the self care needs, so I can serve my family. But also, what is the edge where where can I be today that can help me to really grow. And for me, like, there's always an intention. That's why it goes back to intentions of like, you know, my intention is to live my divine purpose. So what does that mean, exactly. And some days, that could just mean taking care of myself and self care. And I think every day is a good day for that. But some days, it could be like finishing the audio book, it could be doing things that are hard, that take a lot of work. But you know, on the other side of that it's very rewarding, and it's serving people it's serving. My purpose is connected to serving people. So I think, yeah, I think we can we can find a healthy balance between our comfort zone and being outside of our comfort zone. Brandon Handley 26:28 Yeah, I mean, I've got that written down here actually, is my next question says, I can't cope. What's the finding the right balance of growth? New, how do you keep yourself from, say burnout? Especially as an entrepreneur especially? Or even how do you find like you were saying, The, there was a point where it was pretty scary, divine intervention, but then it's like, it doesn't sound like you're driven by fear. You know, as far as I can tell, you're driven by an abundance mindset. How do you maintain that right? Or what do you do when you catch yourself? In a fear based mindset? Jesse Harless 27:05 Well, I think that a lot of people think abundance is like having a Ferrari, they don't understand that abundance is simply having food in your fridge abundance is simply having walls, to some, you know, structure of your house to keep you warm, like that's abundance. And I think as soon as we start tuning into gratitude of what we already have, that's when we unlock this energy that we're able to then get more of what we're already seeking, which really is not money. We're trying to seek security, we're trying to seek safety, we're trying to seek love. So that's really where that abundance mindset is really useful is like, instead of me getting up and saying, Oh, I wish I had this. And I wish I had that, which is what's going on a lot of times, even when people are praying. So instead of that, I rather say, Oh, thank you so much that I have that fresh water in my house, and then I have, you know, the food in my fridge. And then I have already what I have like that. Now if I do need my if there are needs and money that is needed to have, it's like, Okay, well, let me ask for help that, instead of like, trying to say that I have it all figured out, let me actually humble myself, and surrender and be able to ask for help and see what happens and not judge with the support comes from. And I think that was the big epiphany and 2021 for me is asking for help. And then allowing the help to come from wherever is going to come from, because anything else is me controlling that as an ego. That's an ego based mindset. So I was able to let go. So abundance is a very powerful shift, you know, from where we might be living in this current moment. But it doesn't mean that we're aiming to be millionaires, it just means that we're being abundant. And in our emotions, we're being abundant, our mental state, we're being abundant, our spiritual state. So that to me is like the shift. And once you start asking for help, be ready, because it's going to come, it might take three months, it's coming. Brandon Handley 28:56 So I mean, you're also not asking, you're saying that you're letting go the control, right? So the timing? Well, it's great if it happens sooner than later. Sounds like you're also just being open to it and allowing for it to show up when it's absolutely probably most needed. It's probably shows up right then. Jesse Harless 29:17 Yeah, because it could be a friend calling you out. And you're like, wait, that's not the help I wanted, but you don't get it, you don't get to choose it. And that's my point, you might start asking for help. And all of a sudden someone calling you out on your behavior that you didn't even see. And that's the beauty of it. You can't dictate then what it is and where the Help is going to come from. So it can be unexpected. But that's the whole point of staying surrendered and hoping and open to what is to come and, and that whole idea of surrender is not a word that a lot of men like because they're operating from this wounded masculine idea that they have to do everything themselves. And I did that too. They used to call me stressy Jesse, okay, they used to call me that for a reason. That wasn't like, you know that people really calling me that It's because why I try to control everything. I try to control everything. And I try to do everything I could not to ask for help. Even in recovery, I'm talking about no asking for help, you know, oh, I don't need you. I've already been through all this stuff, like all I can do, I'll just have my own goals. And you know what, that's why, you know, to tie it back to the intentions because, you know, whoever needed to hear the intention talk like four times is coming up. Because here's the thing is I was the gold Master, I would set so many goals, I would crush goals. I have all these certifications that I've done, not just heart math, all these ones. And part of me having those. Yeah, of course, some is just like, Oh, I want to better myself and get more education. But some of that is unworthiness. I was doing it out of a sense of validation unworthiness. And this is what I mean, when you start to ask for help. You might have a friend who's very connected to and knows you. And they start to tell you this, that brother you have, you still feel unworthy? And it's like, Whoa, damn, ouch. And it's true. Brandon Handley 30:57 Yeah, that's not just that, that's super powerful. As a matter of fact, I was talking to another friend of mine, who's putting putting some of her stuff together. And she she was just talking about She goes, Well, is it gonna matter that I've only been a professional for x, y, z period of time? I'm like, No, I just put yourself out there and start walking towards it. I mean, everybody started at a certain level at some point. And I think to your point, you know, that's someone worthiness, right? I'm not I'm not good enough to do X, Y, or Z, even though maybe I'm really good at it. Already. Jesse Harless 31:31 Yeah. I mean, it's people way more talented than me, Brandon, way more talented to me. Like I meet people all the time. They're friggin they were professional singers and actors and, and all this stuff. And they're like, yeah, you know, I don't want to write a book. And I don't want to do this. And I'm like, you have like, 10 times the capabilities I have. And I've already on my third book. So what do you even mean, you are more qualified than I ever was. And so this is, this is where I think we have this. And this is where I tie it back to what is addiction? People think addiction is their uncle who's drinking all the time. No, addiction is your emotional addiction to unworthiness. So this is what I mean. And so once we start to see that clearly, we can start to say, Oh, well, then who? How can I ask for help? How can I get some help, so I can start to maintain consistency, accountability, and really go towards these things that I'm avoiding. And, and then that really, on the other side of those things, is where you start to emerge as let's say, the warrior, but the balanced warrior, you're not just being this person who's this tyrant. So I think, you know, these are the lessons I have learned very much later in my recovery, like recently, where, you know, you know, it all just happens in the timing it happens in but you know, this information, could this have benefited me at 18 or 25? And how Oh, my God, yeah. But and so it's all good. It's all good, because now I can take it and really appreciate it. Brandon Handley 32:54 For sure. You mentioned your divine purpose, Jessie, what would you say that is? Jesse Harless 33:01 Well, you know, I used to just say purpose, I used to just say purpose all the time. Okay, your purpose, and it's huge. People ask me, what's the number one kit, what's the number one reason people stay in addiction recovery, and I'll tell them purpose, they have some type of purpose. And you know what, like, eventually one day I was like, You know what, it's if you're living your purpose that's divine, like that's divine, it means that like you're actually choosing to live from your heart, not just your mind. And that's simply what it is it's really choosing to every day to live from my heart space, use my mind as a tool, but realize it's not my master and being able to live my life from that heart space. So the divine purpose is simply like you know, I'm choosing to use my strengths, I know what my top strengths are. So using my top strengths, to be able to help people to share their stories in the world and me helping to help them to see their strengths and show them that their story is important. So that's kind of my divine purpose is to help others to share their story in a loving and powerful way and give them a platform to do that. So that's that's what I do as a professional facilitator or as a coach is I help people to do that and then they get to try to figure out what their divine purposes but again, here's what's cool about your purpose exchanges. So you might be like okay, this is my purpose and guess what Coronavirus hits you know guess what something else hits in your life a storm and you know what it's all good and your purpose starts to shift and change and that's cool it evolves so it's to me it doesn't have to be a set in stone thing and never is and never has been for me and But yeah, I am I like to think it's divine. Brandon Handley 34:42 I look I'm all about it obviously spiritual dope right? Being been in this face and you know the divine is a To me it's a mindset divinity is a mindset right and grabbing hold of that and then allowing yourself to be filled with that. It's a game changer. All right. Speaking of spiritual dope you know I always think about like, the whole idea of sounds like you're you're you're hitting a spiritual dope is having somebody see that breakthrough moment or something like that. What are some other like hits a spiritual dope for you when you're filled with you know, I think you talked about it being being in your flow states what are what's what's something that gets in the flow state or into feeling connected to source? Jesse Harless 35:30 Well I mean I love nature I'm an earthy person, I love being outdoors. I love doing earthing. I never wear shoes, I never wear socks, you're gonna see me always barefoot every day. 365 even in New Hampshire, you know, like, yeah, I wear shoes when I need to but like I'm barefoot, you know, because I love to be connected to the earth. I live in New Hampshire I have beautiful forest all around me, we got the white far, we got the National Forest not far from me. So I you know, my big thing is connected with nature. So it's connecting with the wildlife, it's just, you know, being outside and, and feeling connected to this, like planet where like these little ants on this planet, we think we run everything, we own everything. And it's like, you know, we got to get humble, because we don't, and, you know, just feeling connected and part of nature feels, you know, puts me in the flow state. So that's kind of the end of in my house, you know, where I'm living. You know, you can see behind me, there's plants everywhere I have plans, I have two big plants right here, I got a huge one back there, that's over 25 years old, all to the left of me is his, his plants. I have a running waterfall, you know. So these are things that just remind me of what's important. And, you know, so another way that I get into the flow state is, is is facilitation. Because what I like about it is I'm not that, like I said, the guru, I'm actually asking questions, I'm asking questions that are inquiring into people's lives or business. And there'll be they can actually take the time to answer the questions themselves, and then talk to each other. So it's really, you know, that that makes me excited, because I don't have all the answers, you know, and I let them crowdsource answers, and then we come up with the best answer together, because the answers that they could come up with a much better than what I could come up, come up with. So it's, you know, collectively, you know, using our strengths together to, you know, come up with solutions. And by the way, I do this in addiction recovery, I do this for states. So the state of Georgia I work with and I help them to come up with so you know, different solutions to crowdsource addiction recovery. So, you know, these are lived experiences that that helped me to be in that flow state. And you know, I would say my book that I just released. Absolutely. I didn't think of myself as a writer until I wrote this last book. And I realized, like, oh, maybe I am a writer. I mean, I don't write every day. But you know, my next book, is the confidence I have to write the next book is because the last book I wrote, when I now I'm doing the audio book, when I'm reading it back to myself, or hearing, I'm like, wow, I actually did a pretty good job with the writing of this book, the actual art of the writing. And so, you know, so guess writing can put you in a flow state to? Brandon Handley 38:03 Yeah, thanks for sharing that. What's the what's the latest book that your Jesse Harless 38:07 latest book I wrote is called, if not using who harness restraints to shift from addiction to abundance. Nice, Brandon Handley 38:15 high level, you know, target audience? Jesse Harless 38:18 Well, the high level is the beginning of the book. The first four chapters is my story. I literally write it like a memoir. So it starts out as a memoir, because if you're in mental health, or addiction recovery, it's all about stories. It's about hearing that story want to connect the stories. So I started off with the story. And then the final five chapters of the book, or the six chapters, but the five chapters the meat of the book is, is this toolkit, it's a toolkit that I've learned from leaving my job and way before leaving the job. But solidifying when I left the job, I started to learn techniques to become an entrepreneur. And so the entrepreneurial techniques that I learned actually tie into addiction recovery, they actually help each other, they feed off each other. Because if you're an addiction recovery, you're trying to live a self directed life. And a self directed life is what entrepreneurship is about. So you're trying to reach your full potential, you're improving your health and wellness. This is the definition of recovery. And it also applies into entrepreneurship. So the book is like 10 years of things I've learned from mentors and coaches. But it's also recently in the last four or five years learning from mentors like how l rod and john berghoff, and all these different people that came into my direct experience that helped me to see like, Whoa, these are tools we need to be using in addiction recovery. This isn't stuff we can put off because we're looking at what's happening in the world and decline of life of human life with the opioid, you know, issue going on and all the things that are happening, what we're doing is not working. Some things are a lot or is not so. So the book is is if you say the target audience would be for someone who has a family member or themselves are looking to live their best life because I chose instead of writing a memoir, I chose to write a self help memoir, which has a five chapter toolkit, which is called fears actually. Brandon Handley 40:06 Okay, what's that? What's the acronym stands for? Jesse Harless 40:10 So fears is focus on your recovery, elevate your recovery, appreciate your recovery, resilience and recovery, self care recovery in the 30 action steps. And within each of those is to me having that, that complete life is to have that abundant life if you're doing those five actions, which is really 30. But if you're, if you're thinking about how do I focus on my recovery every day, your recovery might not be from drugs and alcohol, folks, this is what I'm trying to say here isn't isn't just substances. This is this is could be recovery from caretaking recovery from people pleasing every day. And so how do I stop doing that you do the steps in the book that help you to live your purpose. And that's really where it leads to. And focus, you know, so I won't break each of them down. But but that's what it is, it's a way to, like, what helped me and the men that I've been teaching for over a decade in women, but a lot of men, it's, it's like, how do I do it? And that's what I put in the book. It's like, here's the start. And then from there, you read your next 10 books, but here's a book that's gonna get you started. And, you know, it's just my life experiences. Brandon Handley 41:15 Not something sounds powerful Jesse, and I think to the author to the extent of separating men and women from the, I think they're interesting, obviously, they're intrinsically different, right? And how this journey goes. And to be able to have somebody such as yourself, you know, that's really tuned in to how the the male processes this and goes through it, and to have somebody lead them through that. I think that's really important. Jesse Harless 41:42 Yeah, absolutely. And what's ironic is I coach more women than men, but that's just the way it works out in the private practice, but but in reality, when you're in early recovery, and then you're, you know, I left the job, it's like, you go to a lot of these places, and it's, and it's men and women separate. So like, when I was first starting out running workshops, it would be with men. And so and, and then today, I realized, like, yeah, I can run workshops for both. But I can tell you that if I just niche down and start to really focus on men, I'm gonna help a lot of men because a lot of men don't trust their intuition. A lot of men look at things as weaknesses that are strengths. So this is where, like, kind of my heart is, is to help those men Brandon Handley 42:22 for sure, for sure, and I think that that you probably found right, especially in Western society, is that men are very head driven, right, and you're talking about the heart and head coherence piece, and you're getting them to make that connection and to trust it just a little bit. And I think that that's, I think that's powerful. And I think it's awesome that you're doing this work, Jesse. So let me break this down for you. We've got a little just a little more longer here. And what I like to do here is what I like to call kind of like a spiritual speed dating, just the I'm just gonna pick like one question that this bank of questions and I know there's somebody out there looking for the next spiritual date, you could be it Jesse. All right, let's see, we got um what does it mean to live in the present moment? Jesse Harless 43:11 Yeah, for me, living in the present moments, everything, I spent most of my life with anxiety which is living in the future. So you know, so living in the present moment I do everything I can to live in the present moment, I'm literally standing on a grounding mat that's connected to the wall right now. So I'm always trying to stay in the present moment. I'm trying to live right here I'm trying to look you in the eye right in this moment, and be with you now. And just just not think just be so that I can just allow whatever is coming out of me to come out of me. I didn't know what I was gonna say today and that's how I like to live my life. So that is the present moment as I can clearly hear that subtleness of intuition and be able to trust it that is leading me in the right direction, trust my feelings, I can't feel my feelings and emotions if I'm not living in the present moment I'm going to be stuck in some type of battle between the future and the past. And I already spent enough time living in the past and I spent a lot of time live in the future so I know when I'm living in the present moment and it's real simple it's it's I can hear my breath I can hear my heartbeat I'm can be with you right here now I can hear him what I'm saying. It's that's me being in the present moment. So being in the present moment is everything for you to start to live as connected to your purpose. Brandon Handley 44:25 God thanks, Jesse. Thanks a lot. The the What else we got here? Get one more for me to do to do. What is your one wish for World Jesse? Jesse Harless 44:39 It's a big one. I mean, as a probably a few but I would say one of the big wishes is to understand what addiction really means. And I think if we can start to understand what addiction really means we're going to change the whole world. So I that's my hope is to understand the definition of addiction. And to understand that addiction is not simply your uncle who struggle with alcoholism, your addiction is you So that's going to, we understand that we're gonna have a lot more compassion for people, we're going to understand that people are fighting daily battles every single day, your parents are fighting battles, your cousin, you know, all these people are getting these, these these difficult situations that are stemming from addiction. And so I think for me, it's like, once we start to understand the definition of addiction, that it's not just a generic genetic brain disease, and you're doomed. It's it's as simple as, like, all I keep doing is I keep going back to my unworthiness every day. That's my primary addiction. And so when we start to know that type, that there is social emotional addictions, I think that's going to change the world, because then we're going to band together as a one as a tribe and say, how can we help each other with our addictions? Because we're all numbing out in some way. Brandon Handley 45:46 Yeah, just Yeah, I think that's powerful. I love how you've you've kind of reframed addictions beyond, you know, drinking and drugs, and really just kind of put it into a space of a couple of places you put it into that resonate with me is is the numbing out? Yeah. Right. And then, you know, the, the unworthiness, you know, kind of loop right, getting stuck in these loops, as an addiction, right, and recognizing those as as addictions. And, you know, if we band together, like you're saying, and kind of act as one against the human act as one against it, right, like I come from, you know, what can we do for the positive outcome? Right? What can we do that? I mean, I think that your your, your group runs through some of you guys, what was it? appreciative inquiry, right, I think that's where I learned from, from from some of them, some of those groups. So what is this positive outcome of understanding the true definition of addiction? And what can we do to kind of break those shackles? Right, break those loops? I love it. I love it. Jesse, where can people go to find out more about you? Who should be working with you? Who should be reaching out to you? Some of that stuff? Jesse Harless 47:00 Yeah, I mean, if you can find me at my website, Jesse Harless Comm. You know, that's, that's probably the best place is a contact form there, you can grab a copy of my journal, I created a journal to go along with the book that's free, and grab the journal there. So I think that's probably where you can understand more about me who I work with, and what I'm doing in the world, you know, and I don't have a big social media following. I learned that from some of my mentors, so that's actually the most the most, that's not the most important thing. So it's quite unprofessional myself with that. So I mean, if you want to really reach out to me, you need help you need something, you know, go ahead and reach out to me, I respond to every single person. So go ahead and reach out and I'm happy to help. Brandon Handley 47:38 Jesse, I can't believe you're saying social media presence isn't the most important thing. What did you learn from your mentors? That is, Jesse Harless 47:44 well, I have a mentor who's very successful in that he has one of the most biggest he has one of the biggest Facebook groups in the world. But I also have one that has no, no social media following, he makes just as much money. So it's not about money. It's about impact. And he's making just as much impact without a social media. So it's really shows me that either way. So that's where our ego wants to be like, Oh, it's the reason I don't have money is because I only have 1000 followers, and I can prove you wrong with that one. So that's so that's what I'm, that's what I thought I was like, Oh, I need to get the funnel. I need to get the emails, I need to do this. But here's the thing is, it's you don't have to do that you can do without that. But it's all about specializing, what do you specialize in who you're speaking to? And having your own platform? You know, and that kind of helps you not to have to create a social media platform if you have your own platform? Brandon Handley 48:31 For sure, for sure. No, thanks for that response. I mean, I think it's important to hear that right. And it's not just important to hear from random people, you've you've had experience, you know, these people that have, you know, been successful. And I think that we also tend to forget that maybe, I don't know, less than 20 years ago, there wasn't a social media and there were plenty of successful people. Yeah, that's for sure. Right? Right. So Hey, everybody, thanks for checking Jesse out, make sure you go check out his site, Jesse harless.com. And learn more about him. Jesse, thanks for being on today. I really appreciate what you're doing. Jesse Harless 49:05 Yeah, Brandon, thank you so much for reaching out. This is great. I Unknown Speaker 49:09 really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. stay connected with us directly through spiritual co You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual, and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email Brandon at spiritual dog Co. And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This concludes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind yourself and trust your intuition.

Horror Queers
Halloween (2018) feat. Richard Newby

Horror Queers

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 13, 2021 117:35


Pull your phone out of that pudding because we're heading to Haddonfield to revisit David Gordon Green's 2018 sequel to Halloween titled...Halloween! Tapping in for the discussion is Richard Newby, the author of the horror short story collection We Make Monsters Here!Join us as we take a deep dive into this legacy sequel that wants to remind us of every previous sequel in the franchise despite also wanting us to forget about them. We'll discuss the film's portrayal of trauma and how it compares to the portrayal in Halloween: H20. Oh, and how about the 30 minutes of deleted scenes (not all of which are on the Blu)?Plus, Joe's magical talents, Creighton Duke, British Ellie Kemper, baby-killing, Bánh Mi, "Gotcha!" and.....is that the same wig from 1981's Halloween II just spray-painted gray? Oh, and we need to talk about Cameron...Questions? Comments? Snark? Connect with the boys on Twitter, Instagram, Youtube, Letterboxd and/or Facebook, or join the Facebook Group to get in touch with other listeners> Trace: @tracedthurman> Joe: @bstolemyremote> Richard: @RICHARDLNEWBY> Richard's Book: We Make Monsters HereBe sure to support the boys on Patreon! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Save Your Sanity - Help for Toxic Relationships
How Hijackals Succeed at Emotional Blackmail

Save Your Sanity - Help for Toxic Relationships

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 12, 2021 34:13


Hijackals are good at emotional blackmail. They are experts at the "Gotcha!" And, they constantly use it to their advantage. Learn more about the components of that blackmail and how to counteract them. Then, Hijackals fail to succeed at using it against you effectively!Learn what you can do to respond in empowering ways when narcissistic, borderline, or anti-social folks try to control you using emotional blackmail. This episode will help you understand how that emotional blackmail shows up, what its desired result is, and how to say no to it.Healthier people aren't looking to control you. They care what you want, think, feel, and need. Hijackals don't. So, you need strategies for working within yourself and with the Hijackal to stop the emotional blackmail.Emotional blackmail according to Dr. Susan Forward: "when people close to us threaten, directly or indirectly punish us, when we don't do what they want." Does that sound familiar? You can stop it. Listen in.HIGHLIGHTS OF TODAY'S EPISODE:The connection between blackmail and emotional blackmailDr. Susan Forward's book, Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate YouHow a pattern of emotional blackmail is established and maintainedBetter strategies than compliance when a narcissistic person uses emotional blackmailResponding to emotional blackmail purposefully to emerge empoweredWant strategies and support to withstand emotional blackmail. I'm here to help.Let's talk soon.RhobertaWant clarity, insights, strategies, and support from me? We can talk: Introductory session for new clients, $97FOLLOW DR. RHOBERTA SHALER...WEBSITE: https://www.ForRelationshipHelp.comPODCAST: http://www.SaveYourSanityPodcast.comFACEBOOK: https://www.Facebook.com/RelationshipHelpDoctorTWITTER: https://www.Twitter.com/RhobertaShalerLINKEDIN: https://www.LinkedIn.com/in/RhobertaShalerINSTAGRAM: https://www.Instagram.com/DrRhobertaShalerPINTEREST: https://www.Pinterest.com/RhobertaShalerCLUBHOUSE: @drshalerYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/ForRelationshipHelp-------------------------------------------------------------I'M HERE TO HELP YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON AND WHAT YOU WANT TO DO ABOUT IT!If you want to learn more, share, ask questions, and feel more powerful within yourself and your relationships,join my Community Circle now.Off social media, safe discussion + videos + articles + webinars + 2 group Ask Me Anything calls each month!WOW! Join now. Dr. Shaler's Emerging Empowered Community #narcissistblackmail #narcissisticblackmail #hijackalemotionalblackmail #emotionalblackmail #endingemotionalblackmail #nomoreemotionalblackmail#codependence #enabling #emotionalabuserecovery #emergingempoweredSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/hijackals-conflict-toxic-people-narcissist. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This Week in Blernsball
Episode 74 - The Kids can call you Kaiju

This Week in Blernsball

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 6, 2021 54:37


It's playoff season! Perhaps most importantly, the Yankees lost! Get ready for a month of edge of your seat, exciting baseball! We try to come up with an iconic nickname for Shohei, like "The Bambino" or "Iron Horse." You'll never guess what the result is! Remember back in March how we made some predictions for what would happen this season? Remember how wrong we were? Gotcha! We're super-geniuses at predicting stuff! Either that or baseball is super predictable, one or the other. Plus, is this a Ted Lasso fancast now? This Week's Simpsonrama Episodes of the Week: Treehouse of Horror X (Jacob), Treehouse of Horror III (Ben)

Land.MBA Podcast
EP 52 How Pro Land Investors Master Data | Land.MBA Podcast

Land.MBA Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 1, 2021 49:02


Last week on the Land.MBA Podcast, we talked about important skills that you need to succeed in the land business. In this episode, we are building on those fundamental principals and taking a deep dive into Data, the most important part of land business.  Are you looking to purchase land? Is your land not selling? Understanding the numbers and details about a property is key in determining if the deal will make you money or cost you big time. Today, we talk about the difference between number and data, how you can use data to find the best deals, how to clean your data for accuracy, and how you can use it to get the attention of motivated buyers.    Let's Connect  For coaching and courses go here - https://www.land.mba Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/land.mba/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/mylandmba   Transcript: Speaker1: [00:00:00] They say the data are like people getting interrogated, tortured hard enough and will tell you whatever you want to hear. Seriously, though, and our last episode, Dave and I introduced the five skills you need to pay the bills as a land investor. It's fitting that the first one is data. Data sits at the core of land investing. Do it well and you can make a lot of money with a lot less effort. Do it poorly and you can struggle to cover your mailing budget. In this episode of the Land MBA podcast, Dave and I are going deep on data what it is and how you master it to succeed in land. Speaker2: [00:00:57] Welcome to the Land NBA podcast on your host David  along with my co-host. How on earth are you doing today, buddy? Speaker1: [00:01:08] I'm I'm good. It's getting cold here. Got a sweaters and sweatshirts, and it's all is breaking out fast. [00:01:18] I know. Fire pit out in with some of my my men's Speaker2: [00:01:26] Group last night, and yeah, I brought a light rain jacket and it wasn't warm enough. It's the chill is starting to set in here too. Speaker1: [00:01:37] Yes, sir. Speaker2: [00:01:39] But we've got a hot topic today near and dear to my heart. The warm you up, especially, you're a data geek. Speaker1: [00:01:49] Exactly. Well, last time we we talked about the five skills. What did you say? It was the five skills you need to bill or something pay the bills. Five skills to pay the bills. So, yeah, so the first one of those is data. So data, it is. That's what we're going to talk about. And I can't think of anything more important in this business. I mean, there are five skills, but this is without this. The other ones just don't matter. Speaker2: [00:02:19] Right. It all starts, it all starts with data. Speaker1: [00:02:22] Exactly. Speaker2: [00:02:23] Being able to analyze it, being able to use it to your advantage. Speaker1: [00:02:30] Exactly. But before we get into the meat and potatoes of data, if you are enjoying this podcast and I hope that you are in getting some good value out of it, whether you're watching or whether you're listening to it on podcasts, on on iTunes or Google Play or Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts, or if you're watching it on YouTube, please like subscribe. Leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Let us know what you want to hear from us. It really, really helps us to deliver great content to you guys. And even if you don't love it, give us a five star review anyway. Just because we're nice guys. Help us out. All right. And with that, you will improve our data. So let's get to it. Speaker2: [00:03:16] Awesome. Awesome. So, Howard. Biggest question, what is data? Speaker1: [00:03:23] Data, what is data? Well, it's different kinds of information that are formatted in a particular manner, which then we can subsequently analyze and report on at some point. Speaker2: [00:03:37] So already? Come on. Speaker1: [00:03:40] That's the technical definition. I think that within our business, the way that most people immediately think of data is we get a list from the county, from data tree wherever we get it from. And and then we mail to that list. Well, that list represents data. It is made up of a set of records which have a number of fields of information, and we use all that to send mail and to connect with people without that data. We're going nowhere fast, so it starts with data even before we mail. We're using data because we're analyzing counties, and so we're collecting information about those counties in order to say, I want to mail to this one, but not to that one. That is a form of data analysis. Speaker2: [00:04:37] Very good. Unclear. Speaker1: [00:04:43] Clears wood, but it should be saying that in software, you've got two different things, you've got software programs and then you've got data. So the software programs are things that store, manipulate and use data, things like CRM systems, pricing systems, mapping systems, whatever they are. But in order for them to have any value, we have to feed in that data, which is the raw information that we're then going to manipulate with those systems, CRM or whatever, so that we can, you know, make use of it for our business. I mean, people like to call the land speed, for example, a CRM system, and to some sense, it is. But what one of the things that it really does, you know, at the most fundamental level, it's a place where we store or collect, store, manipulate and use data. That's fundamentally what it is. The rest is just icing on the cake. All right. Speaker2: [00:05:43] So. Why is this important and how to a land investor and how would they use it? Speaker1: [00:05:52] So I think a good way to think about it is something really relevant in today's world is with with with the whole all the emotion around COVID, you've got everybody saying, follow the science. Well, what is the science? The science is somebody. Hopefully somebody credible is doing a study. Hopefully, they're building a model for that study that would be credible. And then they are collecting data. And that's what science is. We observe and collect data and then analyze it so that we can understand the world around us. And it's it's no different here. So it helps us, whereas that helps us understand everything from the spread of a disease all as well as what different therapies and whatnot will help mitigate the spread of the disease. And our case, we're collecting data. And again, we're understanding markets or understanding pricing. We're able to, you know, comp and figure out what market values are. So it really is. It is the entire foundation of our business and it's used across everything. It starts with the county, you know, with county selection, it gets into the mailing, but it goes all the way through to sales. Before I do a sale, a final sale, I've got a pricing calculator and I'm putting all the numbers in and it's telling me, OK, if I if I, this is particularly true, if I'm selling it with seller financing, if I price it with this price at this interest rate, with this term, it's going to give me this ROI, this margin and this number of months to break even. And so I'm analyzing all the way through every stage of the business based on data. Speaker2: [00:07:42] Gotcha. So we use it to calm properties to prep our mailers. We're going to use it to validate the deals that come in to look at what kind of margins we need to make and price it accordingly based on what's out there, et cetera. So there's different. Stages, types and stages of data. Talk about that a little bit in regards to from, you know, acquisition and the analysis, cleaning your data, things like that. Sure. Speaker1: [00:08:19] So first, types of data, there's two different types. There's what they call quantitative data, and there's qualitative data. Quantitative data are things that can be measured. So for example, if you're looking at a property, you can measure the sides of the property a number of feet and then you can multiply that. You can figure out what the what the acreage is. You can figure out the elevation from the lowest point to the highest point. Those are all quantitative numerical facts that you can use to evaluate something qualitative would be its attributes. So that would be things like does it have trees on it? Is it hilly or is it flat? Does it have any water features? What is the zoning? And the interesting in both are very important both and in every aspect of the business, because what it allows us to do using that qualitative information is to get a better understanding of how a set of different properties might have something in common. And some of those factors, some of those qualitative factors are referred to, sometimes referred to as metadata. So for example, if I had a still shot picture of David here, that would be a picture. But the metadata around it might say that the picture was taken at such and such a time on such and such a date in Colorado, and it represents a picture of a bald man. Speaker1: [00:09:48] It's so then if I collect thousands and thousands of pictures, I can say, you know what, I just want to see a subset of pictures that are from people who are in Colorado bald and where the picture was taken in the last month. And then I get a subset of those pictures of of what puts them in common. Well, we can do the same thing in land. We can we can show a set of attributes that we think make a number of properties in common. Now it may be that they're in the same subdivision. It may mean that they're in the same zip code, location, whatever. But aside from those sort of government metadata pieces, we might do it based on attributes. So we might say, actually, what I'm looking for is I'm looking for land between this acreage and that acreage with trees on it with at least 50 percent flat. And you know, and a water feature, whatever, and then collect a set of properties like that. And that would be a cohort of properties. And those are the ones I would use to comp a property because they have the most attributes in common. So qualitative and quantitative. Speaker2: [00:11:00] And I would say that that is more of a quantity. It's, you know, the difference between qualitative and quantitative sometimes is also between the art and the science. We talk about this business being a lot of both. You know, sometimes it's more art than science because you talk about attributes and, you know, trees, flat part, you know, things like that. View's location may be valuable to one person and not the other as far as a buyer goes. And or, you know, they may wait it a little bit differently than than others. You know, how many times have you sold a property where you know you had a few people look at it and they didn't like it, and then the right person came along and loved it? It's it's very qualitative. It's art and science. So there's no there's no magic bullets, no matter how much you analyze stuff, but you've got to do is you've got to be as quantitative as you can when, especially when you're buying it. Speaker1: [00:12:04] So you'd like to be, you know, it's funny, my son is so into of all things metalwork. I mean, go figure, how that happened certainly apparently did not come from me. In fact, we went to a whole weekend of blacksmithing last weekend. He was so into it. So anyway, there's a new show on TV called Metal Smith Masters or something like that. And so we're watching it, and two of the contestants on this show had to work together in a team. And one is a guy that designs everything on a computer and then has, like a water cutter, cut exact pieces based upon the design he's created on a computer. He's really good with the numbers and everything else. The other gal is just an artist. She's like, Yeah, I think it should look like that. She just starts working on it. So completely right brain, left brain. But usually the best work comes from a combination of the two. I mean, if you are, it's sort of it's the same thing in business like, you know, you've got financial people. Everything is driven by the numbers and they can't sort of get their head out of the numbers to say, OK, well, what about relationships and what about, you know, sort of the the softer the goodwill and, you know, the softer aspects of value? You really need both. And that's that's true of data, too, and it gets back to this idea of quantitative versus qualitative. Speaker3: [00:13:19] These are some crazy times in the real estate field. Demand is high, inventory is low. If you're a realtor, a wholesaler or house flipper, you've probably noticed how hard it's become to find quality deals. This is why so many in our industry are looking at land as an outstanding way to add new revenue stream to their portfolio. Speaker4: [00:13:40] If you're listening to this podcast, you already know that land is a relatively unknown niche of the multibillion dollar real estate market with huge profit potential. Seriously, what other business delivers 200 300 a thousand percent return on investment deal after deal? Speaker3: [00:13:57] It seems hard to believe, but land really returns 100 to 300 percent commonly and sometimes over a thousand percent deal after deal and in the age of COVID. Demand for land has never been higher. Speaker4: [00:14:11] Many of our students have already created new revenue streams with land and added six figures to their incomes. Speaker3: [00:14:18] We've had clients who have achieved multiple six figures in their first year of business. Another pay for all his coaching and pocketed 15 grand on his first deal. Now, not everybody has these kinds of results, but they're certainly possible if you have the right instruction, the right support and highly experienced mentors. Speaker4: [00:14:40] You don't need another course that promises the moon and then delivers an elementary school education. You need a proven program suitable to your experience and ambition. You need a land MBA. The Land MBA is everything you need to blow it out in the land, business, courseware, mentorship, tools, community and even deal funding. Look, because you're here listening to me, you know that Dave and I don't hold anything back. That's a founding principle we've had from the beginning with the land MBA. You get everything we have to offer. There are no upsells, and now through popular demand, we have transformed our highly regarded one to one coaching program into a small group format at a fraction of the price. If you're ready to build a six figure income with the freedom of being your own boss, go right now to WW W Land NBA fortune. That's WW W Land, NBA fortune. Let us help you create your next path to wealth. Speaker2: [00:15:44] So talk about the types. Let's talk about the stages of data, and this, I think, gets into a little bit of the meat for the land investor because it's more about the process. Speaker1: [00:15:56] Yeah. So this is definitely not going to be a discussion of pure data science. I, I think I might have mentioned once before that when in my last corporate job, the first person I hired was a PhD data scientist and utterly brilliant. I'm still quite the novice in this area, but everything I know she taught me, so I probably will not be getting, you know, it won't be perfectly complete in my definition is maybe a little bit wrong. But what I tried, what I'm trying to do here is pull out those things that are meaningful to the in community and using words that I think would be meaningful to the land community. So the first thing that we want to do with data is acquire it. We have to get it from somewhere and we're probably not going out and getting it ourselves. So it's usually it starts with some kind of government data or some kind of an aggregated data, whether it's from a data tree or Zillow or from wherever. The next thing that we want to do is we want to clean that data and I'll go into all these in a little bit more detail. But the next thing we want to do is clean the data and that is so important. It's the one thing that I think a lot of land investors may not take quite as seriously as they should. It's definitely an opportunity for improvement. Speaker1: [00:17:20] And then the next thing we want to do is once we have clean data is we want to analyze it so that we can understand it. And that's where this whole qualitative and quantitative analysis comes in. And then we want to report on it or use it. So acquisition really starts with where are we getting this stuff from? So let's just say we're talking about a mailing list, right? We create a mailing list in data tree, right? I create this list for people all the time. At the end of the day, the next question you want to ask is worse data tree getting the data from. Well, they're getting it from the county. Well, how good's the data? That really depends on the county because they're they're actually the ones that are collecting it. So what is the data? The data represents their records of who owns what. So hopefully they're maintaining good records. But, you know, sometimes they're not. And and some, you know, a lot of times people pass away, people move. How well is that data maintained over time? You know, are they are they capturing that information? Sometimes good, sometimes bad. When we've, you know, for those of us that have been in enough counties and enough states, you know, we know that there are some places that just have great data like Florida's data is amazing, probably the best data in the entire country. Speaker1: [00:18:42] But there are other places where it's just not so good. I did. I was working on a deal in Costa County, Colorado, and give me an example of how data can really trip you up. Is what I if you want to know, the size of the property in Castilla. It's kind of a manual process. You have to go look into the legal description to find it. So I did that, and so I had and I had a V.A. do that, and so I sent my mailers out based upon that. Well, then I had an opportunity come in person, was all excited. And I went to the GIS system and I actually put a polygon on the property and the size of the property was an order of magnitude different than what was in the legal description when I pulled it up on the GIS system. So I called the county and I'm like, What's going on with this? It's like, Oh yeah, those two systems don't talk to each other. I think it's so I basically had priced the property on an incorrect size because that was what was in the data. So data is very imperfect and the more we clean it, the better it's going to be. So we need to be conscious of where we're getting it. I'll give you another example is I generally would never provide lists to people in the Carolinas and probably Georgia as well, because no matter when I when I click the buttons and say, look at I only want vacant land and then I'll say, Look, I want it where the living square foot footage is zero and I do all kinds of little things in there to try to make sure I'm only getting vacant land. Speaker1: [00:20:22] But invariably a lot of the data that comes back has a building on it. And that's just because the nature of their data and how it's presented, so it's so hard that I don't even provide lists there anymore. You know, if I was going to invest there myself, I would have to figure out how to overcome that. But just using like a data tree, it's very, very difficult. So that's acquisition. You want to know where where are your sources of data are? What it's going to cost, how you're going to get it, what format it's going to come in? Is it going to come in as an Excel spreadsheet? Is it going to come in as a CSV? Is it going to come as a PDF, as a word document data? You know, I've gotten a delinquent tax list and they're literally photographic PDFs. And the only way to get make anything value about it, you've got to give it to somebody like a VA and have them transcribing, which then leads to potential human error. Speaker2: [00:21:15] Right, right, you know, I had one of those same Castilla County when I was first starting maybe the third or fourth property I did and I missed that acreage thing and I actually so my offer was based on 40 acres. And after I bought it, I discovered it was about 20 acres. Speaker1: [00:21:35] Oops. Speaker2: [00:21:37] Yeah. Luckily, I bought it cheaply enough to where I was able to, you know, bail out of it and still make a little bit of money. But yeah, it could have been bad. Speaker1: [00:21:45] Yeah, so. So when you collect that data, if you just use it and you don't like, clean it up or check it, you could get yourself into trouble. And that's where that great little acronym comes in. Guy, go. Garbage in, garbage out. So all data, I don't care how good it is, needs to be looked at, needs to be cleaned up. And so that gets to the next step, which is cleaning the data. Sometimes in our business, we just call it scrubbing, scrubbing, but scrubbing is not perfectly. It's not the perfect word for it because a lot of times what we mean by scrubbing is I want to eliminate records that are not of interest to me. It's not my strategy. It's too expensive. It's the size is wrong, whatever it is. So I want to just have the columns. Yeah. Well, so formatting columns, that would be an example of cleaning, but refer Speaker2: [00:22:37] To the scrubbing. Speaker1: [00:22:39] Yeah, exactly. No, it's true. So it kind of scrubbing encompasses all of that. But normally cleaning would just mean getting the data in good shape. Right. So an example would be maybe you pulled the data down and has the entire mailing address as one field. So you've got this this the street city state zip, all is one field. But when you want to get to the mailing, the way you're mailing set up is you really want those in separate. You also I want one for street address, one for city, one for state, one for ZIP. So how do you break that up? And that becomes a whole kind of Excel formula exercise. But that's an example of of cleaning the data. The other the other. Another aspect of cleaning is is augmentation. Sometimes when you get the data, it doesn't have everything you need in it. And so you've got to find another source of data that has the information you need and then find a common key. So like maybe based on the APM, if they if these two data sets have the same APN, then I can take my first data set, create some new fields and bring in the extra data from the second data set Speaker2: [00:23:45] By skip tracing. Speaker1: [00:23:46] Skip tracing is a great example of that. You know, maybe I want to add email addresses and phone numbers into my data, right? Speaker2: [00:23:52] So maybe I want to do that because I want to do SMS campaigns in addition to to direct mail. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Very good. So we've talked about so we've got where where is data used in the land business? We talked about creating a mailer and scrubbing that data, cleaning that data. So. We want to use it for county selection area selection, pricing, property analysis, so in county selection, you know, state and county selection. What are some of the key pieces of data that we would use to decide on a place to invest? Speaker1: [00:24:43] I think that the answer to the number of answers to that question is equal to the number of land investors out there. I know how we do it and how we teach it. And I, because I like data, I like to get as comprehensive as I can. Some people think, you know, some people are, you know, a little bit more of let me throw a dart at the at the dart at the map and see where it lands. But I think that the two most important metrics I care about are how how active is the county with relationship to buying and selling raw land. And the second one is how fast are properties moving? Are they sitting for six months or are they selling rather quickly? Those two are head and shoulders above everything else. Everything else becomes qualitative. Right. So now I might say, what's the quality of the land there? What's going on? I shouldn't say it's not all qualitative, but what's going on in terms of job growth or unemployment. What's going on with the economy is what's going on with demographics are more one of the one of the metrics I always like is net migration, which would be the amount of people moving in versus the amount of people moving out of that county. Speaker2: [00:26:05] And let me let me just interject there because I think it's really important for the state as far as because I want to see sales growth in the county, right? Speaker1: [00:26:16] Absolutely. Activity, but Speaker2: [00:26:18] That county where people have bought a lot of recreational lots or lots that they want to do something, build something on some day, you could still have negative net migration in that county. But the county next door has or two counties over, which is kind of in that two to three hour perimeter for the vacation home for the weekend has migration growth. But the actual county that you're looking to buy in is could have negative migration. So that one is when you got to kind of take with a little bit of a grain of salt. Speaker1: [00:26:56] I think that's the interesting thing is we, you know, we didn't get into too much detail about how to do analysis and the reporting and all of that. There are many factors that can go into an analysis and then you can weight the factors and say this one's more important than that one and you can score. I tried to do this when I first got in the business. I'm like, Oh, I'm going to use data, I'm going to, I'm going to blow it out. And I created this massive, massive spreadsheet. It had every county in the country, all three thousand one hundred and fourteen of them. And then I collected I just pulled in all this information from the U.S. Census Bureau and Land Watch and from all these other sources. And I created this massive spreadsheet with all of these metrics, and then I waited each of the metrics so that I could give each county a score of what I thought would be like the perfect county for land. And then I could just fill. I could sort it, and then I can say OK in any given state. This is that this is the order of from the best of the worst. Or I could do it nationally and say this is from one all the way to three thousand one hundred and fourteen. And boy, that didn't work. Speaker1: [00:28:04] So but you know, you figure out what matters to you and sometimes, you know, and that's a really good point is, you know, I like net migration. My belief is that if a county has started out with the most important things, right, if it has a lot of activity, if properties are moving fast, then a positive net migration will only over time will only improve that. The other point that you made, which is which is great, is sales growth. You know, if you put those things together, then a positive net. If I have two counties that are kind of comparable in terms of activity and sales growth in the rest, and one has a positive net migration, when has a negative net migration, I probably would lean to the one that has the positive migration, but that's only if all things are equal. So you have to look at all of the different kind of factors and then in in the totality and then you can make a decision. And that's where that's where the human part comes in. It's about the analysis and you're looking at that data. Through the lens of your strategy. So two people could look at the same data based upon looking at five, six, seven different counties and come up with different conclusions based upon what their strategy is. Speaker2: [00:29:25] Hey, folks, people often talk about automating and outsourcing your land flipping business, but what does that really mean? Generic solutions leave it to you to figure out how to set up and maintain the automations. I've been running my land business on land speed for over three years because it's a total solution and allows me to focus on being a great land investor. Land speed was built specifically for land investing by land investor and with many of the most successful people in the business using it for years. It's evolved into one of the most feature rich solutions on the market. Some of the key benefits I get are being able to create and manage mail campaigns and neighbor letters. I'm able to automate tasks amongst my team, create contracts and deeds and email text or mail them within a few clicks. I can automatically capture sales leads from any lead source, including Facebook Messenger. Then it automatically pushes those leads into my sales funnel so that I can manually follow up, but they also go into my automated drip campaign. And since Lance Speed's a total cloud based solution, I can run my business from anywhere in the world with a phone, laptop or tablet. So if you want to. Turn your hobby into a professional, scalable business. Just go to land speed, techno forward slash Dave to receive one hundred and fifty dollars discount today. We've got that. Speaker2: [00:30:53] We've covered four county area selection, some of the some of the key metrics that we want to look at. And then, of course, obviously for pricing. And then once we get a deal in, we want to be able to look at so when you're pricing your your list, you're looking much more comprehensively at at the comp data. It. I mean, a lot of people will, you know, print a map and write down values on an area of map, a map and kind of figure out the average price per acre and go. And in those areas and then others will just, you know, price the whole county based on a price per acre. And, you know, throw enough dang on the wall and see what sticks and others will get down much more micro and price small areas on the map so they can get more accurate and more concise on their pricing. That's very time consuming, and I'm just going to plug a little tool that you make that I love to use for that. And it's called Price Boss, and it's very helpful for letting you capture a lot of data off of sites like Zillow and Lands of America and figuring out the median price per acre. Setting up your acreage splits and pricing it, and I find that tool invaluable really helps me nail down my pricing pretty accurately. Speaker1: [00:32:32] I appreciate that. You know, this is sort of the debate of neutral offers versus blind offers, you know? So in blind offers, you put forth a lot of effort before the mailing goes out. In Neutral offers, you put forth a lot of effort after the mailings go out. And but the trick is, you know, for me with pricing, when you're doing blind offers or even range to offers, the goal is to get as accurate as you can possibly get without killing yourself. Because you know that only half one at the match three percent of a list is going to convert. Most of them are not going to convert. So you don't want to kill yourself at the beginning. We've got to remember in our head what is the purpose of that letter? That letter, the purpose of that letter is to generate a conversation. Speaker2: [00:33:26] Yes, exactly. What you talking about is getting lost in analysis paralysis, right? You know, we can we can. We can over scrutinize and overanalyze the data. And I mean. It's something that you learn over time, because pricing Mailer's is is, you know, again, it's a lot of art mixed with science. And, you know, sometimes you've got areas where you've got lots of comparables and you can plug those in and feel pretty confident that you're in the ballpark. And that's just it. You're trying to get close enough to get people on the phone and have a conversation. And inevitably, I don't care whether you're going to piss some people off and it's just part of the business and you're going to price some way too high and get a bunch of calls like, Hell, yes, I'll take that offer. It's the best offer I've had in years, you know? And then you go and you look at it and you're like, Oh yeah, I screwed that one up, and then you try to walk it back. And you know, many times that's successful. Many times it's not. But you had a conversation. Speaker1: [00:34:38] Yeah, when I first got into the business, the guidance that I received was go find a couple of comps, you know, maybe five to 10 comps off of Craig's List, maybe LaneWatch, average them together. Figure out, you know, and then and then basically price your county based upon that, the whole county. And it was. And so you kind of had to. There was two primary methods back then. It was OK. Everybody in the county gets a $500 offer. Or everybody in the county gets a two hundred and fifty dollars per acre offer, and I just multiply it times the parcel size to get my actual offer. And in both those cases, it's just horrible. And what's horrible about it is it generates a ton of missed opportunity because what's going to happen in that situation is there will be a sliver of properties where your pricing is pretty close to being right. A sliver. And it was a reasonable chance you'll get a call from those people. Then there's going to be this huge group of people where the price is way too low. And they're either going to throw it in the trash or they're going to call you and tell you how much they hate your guts. Either case, you know, you're not getting deals out of it, and it kind of wastes some time and then you're going have this big group of properties that are way overpriced, in which case your phone's going to be ringing off the hook and you're going to realize you're not able to actually do those deals once you get into due diligence because those prices will not yield a profit. Speaker1: [00:36:10] So if you can get a very good ballpark right before you send your letters out, then fewer are going to end up in the trash can. And in the some of those that would have otherwise ended up with the trashcan may actually call you and you can get more deals out of it, and it'll save you a bunch of time because your phone's not going to be ringing with a bunch of deals that you're not going to be able to do anyway. So it saves time and it will get you more deals. The trick is to be able to do that without killing yourself, and that's why you need tools. There's there's a few different ones on the market right now. I think they're all pretty good. Obviously partial to to price boss. And the primary reason I'm kind of partial to price boss is because. Everything's everything is built on assumptions, right? So, for example, when you get a set of comps from Zillow or Lens of America or the county, wherever you're getting them from, some of those comps won't make any sense. Speaker1: [00:37:15] Right? Let's just say it was a family transaction. Ok, I sold this property for one hundred bucks. You know, it's worth $50000. That doesn't make any sense. Sometimes it goes the other way. Sometimes they're trying to shift for tax reasons. They move it to another entity, and so they sell it for some, for more than it's worth. That happens from time to time. Do, or sometimes a property sells just for more than it's worth. But it's it doesn't make any sense when you look at the larger market and those are called outliers, and you definitely want to pull outliers out before you do your full analysis and say, OK, this is the price per acre for this group of properties. What is an outlier and what isn't an outlier? Well, it's very difficult for machines to figure that out. It can be done, but it's built on assumptions. Sometimes those assumptions are right, and sometimes they're wrong. You brought what? You brought a real interesting up one time, Dave, about the situation where what happens if there are multiple properties on a single deed? It really screws everything up. Speaker2: [00:38:21] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So for example, you know, you'll see this on if you're looking at Zillow sold and if you have data tree up with with the sales and sales turned on, you may find a cluster of properties two or three or four or five properties I've seen that are sold very close to each other, and they have they all have the exact same price. Well, if you're just using an AI tool to scrape that data, you're going to let's say these, let's say you've got twenty five thousand dollars and you've got, you know, five properties that also for four, twenty five thousand, you're like, Oh, that's great. You scrape that in, well, the the the software is going to interpret that as, you know, twenty five thousand cops, twenty five thousand dollars each. And but if you if you click on them, for example, in data tree, you'll see that, oh, it was the same buyer for all of these. So they essentially bought all five of those properties for twenty five thousand. So your actual comp is five thousand. Right? And so that can that can fool you. And so that and I am not sure that some of these automated tools are taking that into account when it happens. You can do that in price plus, I mean, it still can slip by you, but it's something that you have an opportunity to manually manipulate that and delete those fields if it looks fishy, fishy to you. But it's something that I it fooled me. I didn't catch it until, you know, probably only about a year ago, and I've been in this business for six years. Speaker1: [00:40:12] So, yeah, I mean, when you talk about cleaning data, this is especially true in pricing because let's just say I've got two price two properties and they translate into the same price per acre. Well. If they are to properties and that's valid, what if they're the same property, it's just a duplicate data. It actually manipulates your number and makes it too high or too low because you're you're counting too many properties that that aren't real. And so that happens again, this it's important to understand where your data is coming from. So Land Watch Lands of America land a farmer, all the same company now and not all, but most properties that go into that system are syndicated across all the platforms. So if you pull data from Land Watch and from Lands of America, you're going to end up with a lot of duplicate data. Sometimes people just post multiple times. So what we did in price bosses, we set it up so that you can sort it, and it basically highlights where all your duplicates are. So you can look at that and say, Is this really a duplicate or is it not? If it is, you delete it again. You know, machines can do some of that, but it's built on assumptions and sometimes it's right and sometimes it's wrong. And if you don't have the ability to kind of go in there and put your own little decision making on it, you know, you get what you get. Speaker1: [00:41:32] I like I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to data. I like to see it so. So I like to take that out. And then what? What what we do is we create a graph called a scatter plot in one on one access. It'll just have acreage. So it'll go anywhere, you know, can go from whatever range you put in there, but say zero to a thousand acres on on the x axis and on the y axis, it has price per acre. And so what you'll see is that across all the comps that you've collected, it tends to build clusters. But it also will show you on this on this scatter plot, those properties that are way, way up high or way way too low, and they're not part of any clusters. And those are most likely your outliers, so you can easily find them and make a decision, whether you keep them or or you get rid of them. And that's the cleaning part of it, and it takes a bit of time and effort. But the more you do it, the better you get at it and the less time it takes you. But once you've done it, boom, you know you're ready to get some very accurate pricing. And with that, hopefully you'll get more property, more deals and less wasted time. Speaker2: [00:42:40] Right. So I just want to bring up one more piece of data that I think is important that we for tracking and deciding where we spend our marketing dollars and in this business and that is, you know, tracking where your leads are coming from. If you are set up with the various sources, like if you have a Lancome account, you know you're going to have leads coming from the three different lands of America land and farm and land watch and then maybe use land flip. Maybe you do some Facebook and some Craigslist and any other source that you have. It's really good to measure how many leads are coming from from these sources and which ones have the highest rate of conversion as well. Like, we know that, for example, Facebook, you get a high number of leads, but the quality of lead may not be that great. And so it's really good to measure. You know, Facebook has become Facebook Marketplace and groups has become a very challenging place to market, and it now is very labor intensive. They flag you, they shut you down and and things like that. So, you know, I recently analyzed my my data on the number of leads, but not just the number of leads, the number of properties that we actually converted on Facebook and just decided it's not worth the effort anymore, at least not the way we were doing it. Speaker2: [00:44:16] And so I'd rather take the labor that I was paying, even though Facebook's free you get, even if you're, you know, paying a cheap VA, I was still spending, you know, two $300 a month on that VA for posting in Facebook. And so you have to take a look and go, Well, maybe it's more advantageous if I take that than a couple hundred bucks and and increase my exposure on land or land, flip and do some of their boosts there and things like that, or flat fee meals. So you want to be able to have a tool, a system that measures where those leads are coming from. I'm going to plug land speed again as that's all my leads come in and they automatically tick off the box. You know where, where the lead come from. And so I have a ledger on the left hand side that shows my my lead count. And then I can also show, you know, which which leads source converted. And that's a very good piece of data to track to know which is my best lead source, not just for leads but also converting them and where I spend my marketing money. Speaker1: [00:45:31] You know, it's a real it's just a really good point that you made, which is there's there's how many leads are generated and then how many convert. And so you collect the data. But when you get to the analysis and the reporting side of things it's about, we don't need to collect and analyze and report unless it's going to actually lead to decisions that improve our business. Otherwise you just doing it for the sake of doing it because you like data. That's all fine. But you know, we want to exert ourselves in ways that are going to improve our business. So, you know, it starts with asking the right questions. You know, if you start to say, OK, you know, what are the what channels are working best for me? What matters most? I mean, is it leads or is it is it conversions? While I would argue it's conversions. So that would, you know, that would be a great example of that. And yeah, so I mean, it all starts with asking the right questions. Speaker2: [00:46:30] Yeah. You know, because it all it all translates into labor as well, right? Because if I'm getting just like the Facebook example, if I'm getting a lot of leads, but none of them are converting, I mean, those leads got to be followed up, and some of them are just depends on how you handle your leads and how you rank them. You know, sometimes if they're just an email that came in and I just let it go to the auto responder if it's Facebook. But you know, if somebody gives me a phone number, they're getting a call, you know, so it's and they're getting a manual email on top of the auto responder. So, you know, if the lead quality is really crappy from a certain. Source, you either want to. Stop that source altogether or just, you know, put them on automation period and don't do a manual follow up. So all of these points of data are control how you operate your business and, you know, think about the parade or principle all the time, right? 80. 20. Yeah. Great point. All right, I think we beat the horse dead. Speaker1: [00:47:39] I love it. Well, this is an important horse. And if you don't master data and you don't, you know, if you've got kind of a background in this and you've played around on Excel spreadsheets and things like that, it's probably not going to be terribly hard for you to to master it within this business if you don't have that background. It's just one of those areas you want to make sure that you are. You are improving all the time because the better we are with data, the better this business is going to run. It's just there's just no way around that. It is, you know, one of the five most important skills to pay the bills. Speaker2: [00:48:19] All right. That was a great talk. We'll talk to you soon. Adios, everybody. Speaker4: [00:48:24] Yeah, we hope you enjoyed this episode. Had a bit of fun and walked away with some actionable insights that you can apply to your business. Dave and I have got some great content in interviews planned, so don't forget to rate and review. And of course, subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. If we mention any interesting links or tools, you'll find them in the show notes to learn more about landed MBA. Visit our web site at Wait for it landing MBA. See you next time on the Land MBA podcast.  

FounderQuest
Our Outbound Sales Autopsy

FounderQuest

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 24, 2021 25:37


Show notes:Links:SaaslerKoombeaHook RelayTranscript:*note - this is an unedited, automatically generated, transcript with only about 80% accuracy*Ben  So I say we we just had a new customer signed up just like minutes ago and said that the reason they signed up was our podcast. So awesome. Good stuff. Good stuff. So pro tip for you says operators out there, put a little box and your on boarding, asking people how they heard about you or whatever. It's very, very informative. Starr  Yeah, it does. And then do a podcast and wait  episodes. Ben  Those steps are optional. I really do like they're having like those, those uh onboarding introductions is what we call them. We have a channel in slack for them and having those show up periodically is like a little little endorphin rush. Like I love seeing those show up in our slack channel and you know, we also have a cancellations channel has the same thing with cancellation messages and that's not quite as fun. But thankfully we see if you are those messages that we do the onboarding messages, but I just, I really like having those things in slack. It's nice to see that throughout the day. Starr  Yeah, definitely. So imagine this is gonna be a little bit of a shorter one because we just recorded um last week's podcast, like on monday in today's thursday. So I don't know if there's, there's not as much time that's passed to let um I don't know to let the hot takes regenerate themselves. Mhm Ben  Right, well, I have a hot date for you and it's the grape, I guess most hot takes are great Josh  what we're best at. Ben  Uh so I'm working on an update to the Roku integration. So, you know, we haven't a clue add on and Uh we started to add on like, I don't know, back early, early days, it must have been like , or so. A long time ago. Well in , apparently Hiroki released an updated version of their API for partners like us and uh it has a new provisioning thing and you can actually call back to their API and get some information about like supervision to add on and stuff like that. Which is great. Uh We haven't ever really gotten around to changing our particular add on because it works just fine. So why bother? Ben  But I've been looking at synchronizing the Heroku pricing with our current pricing because we've done a number of pricing variations since we launched the Heroku. And so now the two sets of pricing are pretty out of sync. So as I started to get into that I was like well you know well I'm here, how about I just you know update the A. P. I write classic classic rabbit hole. Right? And and and so I spent some time doing that and found you know some interesting quirks and so on about our integration and anyway it's all good like I got the work done and I did a pr and and josh and kevin like giving the thumbs up and I'm ready to deploy except Ben  I have two questions for the Heroku people about about the migration because the migration you gotta be careful right? Because like the V one A P. I. Is not compatible with the V three Api And so you have to store different sets of data and the I. D. S in particular are different like they used to pass what they call a ready and now they pass an add on I. D. And you gotta you know handle the transition carefully or else someone you know maybe they can't add on the thing. Maybe they can't start being customer, maybe they can't remove the adult which would be a problem because you know or maybe they can't log in that would also again yeah prop trading right? Josh  And so because they still get the emails Ben  so so my questions for harajuku around this migration revolve around this idea and like handling sso and making sure that we can still provisions and provisions properly anyway. So I put two questions to them and support two days ago and that's my gripe because that's the holdup. That's the holdup I can't deploy it because I can't get answers to these questions apparently. So I'm just like oh okay I understand like people are busy and stuff but uh I would like an answer some time you know and there's no like there's no auto responder there's no we'll get back to you in X. Amount of time. No it's just like off into the void and I'm just waiting Starr  did you maybe did you maybe use the legacy um support page Instead of the current ? Ben  No no use the current one. Okay good question though. Good like that Josh  this is just another example of like coding being the easy part. Uh huh. Ben  Yeah and also a good example of like rd party integrations causing you know uh technical maintenance burden like like um oh for example like clubhouse that recently renamed themselves the shortcut. Right? And so we had to, you know, do a little bit of work there and renamed stuff inside of our app wasn't a whole lot of work but it was some work but you you add, you multiply that kind of work by the number of integrations you support and all of a sudden like this is ongoing maintenance work that doesn't, it's just you're just treading water trying to keep up with what everybody else in the world is doing. Right? Josh  Yeah. And as new as new integration, you know, his new apps come onto the market and everyone wants to integrate with them, you just gradually expand until you, I mean you still have to support the old ones. Yeah, I think we're definitely getting to the point where every new little thing we add is like yeah, yeah, we're starting to feel it, we are starting to feel it. Yeah. And like the the depth of the integration is also I've noticed is like a big, big thing because like there's a few integrations that we like go a lot deeper with like get hub, you know, heroic. Who obviously is like a good example of that. We have a lot of issues with vera I've I've seen but who doesn't Ben  um Josh  but it does seem like the like I don't know, the more standardized something can be. Um and yeah, just I don't know when you're like integrating with a lots and lots of custom API's and stuff like that. They're going to switch it out on you at some point. Josh  Yeah. Support. It Ben  would be, it would be nice if there was like a happier plus plus, like a next level happier right? Where uh it just, it just abstracts away all these differences and you can just, you know, it's like a universal kind of thing and it's like, yeah, possibly be impossible. But Josh  are almost like the pitch I get to the pitch there being almost like an LTs, like like an LTs contract for for integration API is like, you gotta, you gotta contract. This API isn't going to change for like  years. Um and they'll just, you know, they'll do the and we'll do the internal migrations to keep the ap the same for you. Ben  Yeah, there you go. That's that's an interesting idea. I wonder how that kind of service would cost. Josh  I don't know, I know there's been a few um someone a micro, someone, a Microsoft had like a service that built like manage the integration side for you. Um was that Jonathan? Um Yeah, yeah, I don't know if that was like similar. I know it wasn't quite, that wasn't quite the idea, but like it was the idea that like, you know, they like give you  integrations, you know, for free or whatever, like much easier to integrate with them. Ben  Yeah, you just plug in and all of a sudden you Josh  have immigration. Ben  Yeah. Yeah. But the link in the show notes or see if it still exists. I haven't, I haven't Josh  talked to Jon tester. I can't Ben  yeah, sounds familiar. Josh  I don't know. I remember like having their like sticker in front of me at the table microscopes. Ben  Yeah. I haven't uh you know, having, having not gone a micro comp or business software or anything else for a couple of years now it's like it's going to keep track of what people are doing and because usually that's where I see Jonathan, Josh  you know, there was a Microsoft Microsoft local happened in Portland yesterday. I was kind of, I was kind of, I didn't go but in hindsight I kind of wished I had. But yeah, I saw, I saw a little bit of activity on twitter Ben  yeah look like they were having a fun time and I had the same kind of feeling. I was like, yeah I wasn't really thinking about going but then after seeing some of the tweets and like actually would've been fun to me, you know, Josh  wow I'm in the middle of like my kids are home from school this week because there was a covid case at the school and uh, so it's got yeah got that that's fine and in the school like was not as equipped as we hoped to like handle like the, you know right, just all the um coordination and stuff like the communication, I don't know, just they're still getting it together, it seems so it could be better. Ben  Did you sit there and think there should really be an app for managing this kind of communication between that would be family. That Josh  would be, yeah, that would be uh that would be something because yeah, it's like, like, yeah, not everyone seems to know how to use email. Uh huh Ben  That could be problematic. Starr  I've never gotten so many emails about like a specific thing is, you know, recently now that my daughter is going to school. Yeah, and they're not bad. They're just like, there's just so many of them about all these different aspects of things. Josh  Do they do they put urgent everywhere because like I've got a whole inbox of urgent emails. Starr  Oh no. Uh huh Like they seem to be pretty on top of it. Like they're kind of um like the whole covid stuff puts a whole another layer on top. Like, I'm sure opening school is already like a lot of work, but you know, they're scrambling around and like erecting tents in the, on the blacktop so the kids can eat lunch outside and you know, all this stuff. Starr  Okay. So they've created an official, an official channel for parents to raised their safety concerns with the school because I think they were just getting bombarded. Bye Everyone. Josh  Yeah, I think that's where we are and I'm hoping that's they come up with something like that like some sort of process for raising concerns. Ben  Yeah. I wonder if you start seeing like a a school board or maybe a school level position right? Like pandemic coordinator, right? And that's your point. I Josh  I really hope I hope it doesn't last long enough to like bake the position into society. But like I guess like yeah some sort of health coordinator. I could see that being a thing for sure. And I guess yeah I mean I could probably do other things when there's not a pandemic happening I imagine. Mhm. Still be useful. Ben  Wouldn't be a full time job is what you're saying. Josh  Yeah. Well Starr  I was like I was surprised at like um the school does offer like free um like flu vaccine drive through clinics and like they do a lot of stuff, it's just not just directly school and that was a little bit surprising. I mean it's awesome but Josh  maybe I need to move to Seattle. Starr  Um Yeah. Ben  Yes. Well um yeah Ben  we'll help you find a house. Starr  Yeah it'll only cost you like a million dollars Josh  on the low end right for a starter house. Yeah man. Well um we could talk about one of the things that I've that we were discussing this week um was the you know the hook relay launch. And I thought one interesting conversation we had was because we've we're making a few improvements to the sales site um before we sent out this email and um like published a blog post and do some basic like you know launch to our customers um sort of thing. Um And Ben you had you've been working with like a contractor or you found a contractor Josh  to do some website, like some redesign stuff because the website we put it together kind of like I don't know what is it, It's a tail end tail insight. Um Just like what like telling you I um fairly boilerplate and uh not really very polished. So we thought it would be cool to uh you know kind of polish it up and rethink some of the content and make sure like everything flows together in terms of like called call to actions and things like that. Um But we're at the we have a decision to make like do we do we kind of just like do a little bit of work to make it you know, launch Hubble and then launch or should we like go for this full redesign that the designer of course is trying to pitch us on. And Josh  I'm thinking that like ship it is the way to go. You know make make it make it ship herbal and then uh come back and and we'll we'll do the big the big overhaul. Ben  Yeah I I've heard smart people say that if if you're not embarrassed by what you ship then you waited too long. So Josh  yeah so we're probably making a mistake by not just uh shipping it as is, huh? Ben  So the current, like if you look at the, I mean there's only like four pages right? Of the sounds like uh and of those four pages, like the best looking one I think is the one that kevin did. That's the documentation page. Uh put a lot of good work into that. And then the second best I would say it's probably the guide that you wrote. So that's Josh  that's job because because I copied kevin Ben  copy, Josh  kevin's work. Ben  And then I would say the next the next in series is the pricing page. I think it looks okay, but that's like straight from tailwind ui Uh basically copy based, like we paid, you know what, $ for the components and then worth every penny, right? Uh And then I would say the worst of all the pages is the homepage. And that's the page. That's all me. Like I I put that together. So uh I think it's pretty clear who needs to stay away from design at honey badger. It's been. Josh  But in your defense, like you put that together, like when the product was like, like barely even alpha and we were like, we should just like, we should really like buy a domain for this. And so you like wrote a little letter and put it on there. Um And we haven't revisited since, so that's kind of what we're talking about is just revisiting um you know, making a few small changes and then then we'll get around to hopefully making something more um professional or I don't know. Ben  Yeah, but it's funny that, as I was, as I was working with that designer that we found to help us, as we were like, scoping out the project, it was, I felt a bit of deja vu but from the other side, because I remember as a freelancer, like, I was always, you know, pitching people on the project and I would give them the grand vision and, you know, and here's the price tag, Ben  and they'd be like, oh, out, could you, could you cut, you know, x, y and z could get the price down to whatever, you know? And uh it wasn't about the price, in this case, it was about time we wanted to get that homepage done faster so they could get this launch done sooner rather than doing a whole redesign, but I still felt kind of guilty going back to design and say, okay, that's that's great, but could we, you know, cut like all those pages and just do this one, it's not Josh  the it's not the price timeframe, so are they going to be able to you think they'll be able to do a quick ish turn around, like um so that we'll get to get to ship this thing. Ben  Yeah, I think so, I didn't made the mistake of not actually setting a deadline. So I'm I realized that after I agreed and paid the deposit and all this kind of so like I don't actually know when he's going to deliver stuff. That could be a problem, but I figured I'd just wait a few days because you know, I'm thinking it should only take a few days. What do I know I'm not a designer obviously, but I figured after a few days if I see nothing, I hear nothing then I'll be like, okay, so what's the timeline? And hopefully it'll be something like, you know, next week, but Josh  this project is just like is he is he already like is you just have access to the like get a repository or is he like working something up? Like some sort of prototype or Ben  or something like that? Yeah, you should be doing a prototype. So st, st thing is he asked us do we want how do we want to get the design part? Uh So like the choices were a PSD or stigma. So I chose stigma because we use stigma. Uh and then the second part would be okay. And there also was a question and the on boarding was okay, you want me to build this out in html CSS And of course, yes, like yes, I want you to do more work for me, thank you very much. So, so the first version is just a design and stigma and oh, actually three. So he gave us the option of just doing one, like I'll do a design and you accept it or not? Or doing three designs. Ben  I went for the three designs because I mean I'm a client now so I get to like, you know, be deciding and stuff. So that was that was slow us down a little bit obviously because there's gonna be three designs, that one, but we'll get those three designs. That's Josh  for that's for like the big project. Right? Or or is he doing three for the initial bill? Ben  Well, I think that I think for the further homepage Okay. I think that's basically, I think what I was trying to communicate, I think I communicated was we want to do is basically to stage project, like we want to do the whole design, but we want the first stage to be, Let's get the homepage set. So what I'm thinking is like the design that he goes with for the homepage will then carry through to the rest of the project. The rest of the pages. Gotcha. That's mine. That's my hope. Josh  I don't do you know, I it sounds like he's more like he's going to be coding if he's coding this up in html and CSS like I wonder he's probably not using like uh is he using anything to start with? Like could he use could he do this in tailwind for instance because that might be useful in the future if we want to like, you know, take over if we want to like do some, you know, of our own design in the future, which, you know what we're capable of is basically tailender bootstrap. Ben  Yeah, I didn't specify to use tailwind. I didn't really care at the moment. I just wanted whatever was fastest. Uh Right. And I figure if we decide to revisit and do some structural stuff, we can always adapted the tailwind ourselves, like that kind of thing I can do, you know, I can take an existing design and I can, I can rework it, you know? Uh so I figured just get it out the door, get it done as quickly as possible. I don't, I don't care what you do and then we can, we can revisit if we need to. Josh  Cool. Well the, I mean, once we get the whole thing redone that, that'll be nice. I don't know. We've never really done that. We've on our current on, on honey badger. Io we've never like, we've always just done it ourselves. Ben  That's new news. Something a new venture for us to try try this sort of thing. It's great. I like experiments. So we had, speaking of experiments, we had an experiment that did not work out and I suppose we should talk about that. Uh we, we decided that the sales, the outbound sales effort is not working out for us. So uh worked with Harris at interest there and we talked about this on the podcast before. Uh, and Harris is great interest. Um, it's great, % recommend Harris and his team. If you're thinking about doing some sales stuff and you want some training, some coaching or you want someone to help you do it. All those things are great. But after having done sales work with Harris, I just realized it's Ben  probably not gonna work for us. Maybe it's maybe it's me, maybe it's our business, maybe it's our customer segment, maybe it's a combination of all those things, but you know, Harris and I, so I told Harrison and it's just not working out, we need to, we need to turn this down and turn it off. And, and Harris was like, yeah, I was getting the feeling based on the response rate, like which is zero, uh, just wasn't working. And so, and we also like on Tuesday, I had a great call with Harris and we just did a post mortem basically the whole project and like why why didn't it work? Like we were hoping it would work and Ben  uh, and it was, it was a blameless postmortem, like I don't think there was a particular fault. I think there are factors like, uh, we sell primarily to developers and developers, primary that usually don't want to be talked to right, They don't want to talk to a sales person, they don't really want to get unsolicited stuff. Uh, And so that's a factor, I think also like the nature of our product, like you don't really need a salesperson to explain to you exception monitoring, right? Like it's, you know, it's like if you go to the car dealership Ben  and you're looking for an accord, you don't really need to spend a lot of time with a salesperson as he explains to you what an accord does, like, you know what an accord does, right? It's a car. Like if I know I want an accord versus camera, like I don't need any help, right? Just just tell me the car and I think it's kind of some kind of thing here is like we're not selling something that's really complicated or that needs a lot of education or it needs a lot of configuration or whatever. Like it's not a solution based sales, which I think would be a better fit for that kind of sales process. So, and, and there are other factors. Um but yeah, so that's an experiment that I think is just, uh, does it work out? Josh  It seems like we're really positioned to sell to the developers and it's not that we couldn't, I mean, we could try to sell ourselves too because it seems like, like depending on the size of team that's using a tool like this, like you get people in the organization higher up that get involved, like managers or product managers or uh, like engineering leads and stuff that are trying to do more of the like management and coordination um stuff and those are the people that like the dashboards and the samel and like all the more enterprise features, but we don't typically like lead, like that's not that's not how our um product is positioned to, we're not like we haven't positioned ourselves to sell to that level really, it seems. Um and Josh  yeah, I don't know, that's that's kind of interesting because, you know, you wonder at some point like if the developers are deciding what tool to buy, do they buy the same tool as like their bosses and we're trying to give the developers what they want, it may be more than we're trying to give their bosses what they want, and you know, and then we try to build those features too so that we can keep everyone happy, but like um it does, there's like yeah, it's kind of a different, like you could see like trying to take the same approach with like, you know, someone up the higher up the ladder or whatever, I could see that not being as interesting. Yeah, Ben  one of the things and there are other factors, like one of the things that Harris taught me about sales is uh he said the money is in the follow up basically like you need to keep reaching out to the same people basically until they tell you to go away and that's not what I'm about and I don't really want to do that to people. Like we email sequence and uh inherited like, well we need to do an email sequence like this and it's like in emails long and I'm like um how about two? We send one and then we send one more and that's it. And Harris was like uh so I think in many ways like I was tying his hands because I didn't want to do the kind of sales process that a lot of people do. Right? Josh  Well I imagine like putting your face on those emails probably like you don't, you don't want like to make a bunch of enemies of developers that you might have to work with in the future. But like what if you like, did you consider just like making a completely fictional sales? Just like salesperson persona? And it could have just been like, you know, we could have put them on the, on the sales page and everything. It's just like this fictional person that takes all the heat for sales. Ben  I never thought of that. That's a great idea. Name, bobby bobby, the badger. Josh  Yeah, um maybe that's like a side like, you know, kind of an Upsell offering that Harris can can add to to his product eyes thing. Like, you know, if you don't want to take the heat, like we can create something for you Starr  that's a Ben  that's an awesome idea should afford that on. Yeah. Yeah. So the and another factor is like uh you know, because there are there are companies, we have competitors that are selling into the enterprise and do that sort of thing and um, I think I think you hit on a point there. It's like are we, are we selling to me selling the typical enterprise solution where the buyer has to be happy or are we selling something where the user has to be happy? Right. And and sometimes that they're both happy but and often times it isn't and in our case we're focusing on that and user and it doesn't make that user happy if we're pestering them with emails or you know, getting in their way of actually just trying the product. And so anyway, I think for now at least we are Ben  Better served as a % inbound kind of company and maybe spend those resources on customer success or engagement or something like that. Yeah, Josh  it's interesting but it Ben  was fun while it lasted. Josh  Well, I'm glad, I'm glad it wasn't a complete drag. You got to, you got to learn a little bit about sales. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I think like uh like competition, just like the, we're in such a like a competitive space and most of our competitive, our competitors also go for those like enterprise segments. Um so it could actually be, you know, it could be good for us to stay, you focused on the on the smaller, like, you know, the smaller, the smaller end of the market in a way because they're probably somewhat underserved at this point, Josh  yep. Starr  All right. So um when is the hook really lunch Starr  or is this and how to fix fixed? Okay. So we don't know what to tell people Josh  we're meeting, we're meeting next next week to kind of finalize it. But I'm imagining like we're going to push it out the door as soon as we have, you know, some I think we're going to wait for a few updates to the homepage, but otherwise we're going to ship it. And who knows? Like if if this project ends up kind of dragging on at all or anything like we could just decide to, you know, kind of just go what we have. It's not, you know, it's not it's it's workable. So maybe we should just like stop procrastinating, right? But we'll we'll decide next week at our um hook really marketing meeting. Ben  Yeah, the good news is we already have customers who are using it who are paying us money to use it. So that's that's nice. Like it's not just burning cash with a bunch of a rack of servers doing nothing. You know, Josh  So I would say it's in the next couple weeks. Starr  Awesome. I'm sure when that happens we'll um be blowing horns and making all sorts of noise on this show and directing people to the right place. Uh huh. All right. Was there anything else you guys want to talk about? Should we should wrap it up? Josh  We can wrap it. We can wrap it. Starr  All right. Well, you all have been listening to um found request. If you want to go read us on apple podcasts or whatever the kids are calling it these days, go for it. Um And yeah, we'll catch you next week. Thank you. Josh  Yeah, No. 

SpyHards Podcast
SpyMaster Interview #10 - Jeff Kanew

SpyHards Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 24, 2021 69:08


Agents Scott and Cam welcome Gotcha! director Jeff Kanew to the podcast to share stories about shooting the 1985 Anthony Edwards spy comedy. He also reveals behind-the-scenes intel on helming Revenge of the Nerds and Troop Beverly Hills, as well as editing Robert Redford's 1980 Best Picture Oscar-winner Ordinary People. Pick up exclusive SpyHards merch, including the new "What Does Vargas Do?" t-shirt by @shaylayy, available only at Redbubble Social media: @spyhards View the NOC List and the Disavowed List at Letterboxd.com/spyhards Podcast artwork by Hannah Hughes.

Brand Champion Marketing Network
Episode 38- Promotion Sire "GOTCHA COVERED"...with Brad Hook & Brent Schneider

Brand Champion Marketing Network

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 23, 2021 17:05


This episode features the new, now proven, promotion sire GOTCHA COVERED, owned by Brad Hook and Schneider Bros and discusses the breeding history, physical build and progeny highlights that have surfaced in the recent months during online sale season. A very informative and entertaining listen about this elite new show calf producing stud.

The Solarpreneur
The Game Changing Sales Recorder You Need - Joe Jordan

The Solarpreneur

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 21, 2021 41:56


Learn more about https://siro.ai/Sign up for www.solciety.co! Speaker 1 (00:03):Welcome to the Solarpreneur podcast, where we teach you to take your solar business to the next level. My name is Taylor Armstrong and I went from $50 in my bank account and struggling for groceries to closing 150 deals in a year and cracking the code on why sales reps fail. I teach you to avoid the mistakes I made and bringing the top solar dogs, the industry to let you in on the secrets of generating more leads, falling up like a pro and closing more deals. What is a Solarpreneur you might ask a Solarpreneur is a new breed of solar pro that is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve mastery and you are about to become one.Speaker 2 (00:42):What's going on. Solarpreneurs Taylor Armstrong here back with another fabulous episode. We've got a great guest here on today. We, um, always love to feature new products. New software we're finding out about here is Solarpreneurs. So I've got one that I'm stoked for you guys to hear about, and he's going to tell us all about it and kind of his background with everything. So we've got Mr. Joe Jordan on the show junkie, Joe. Thanks for coming on with us today.Speaker 3 (01:08):Taylor it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.Speaker 2 (01:11):Yeah, for sure, man. And, um, I was telling you before we kind of made the connection. I usually just pretty much delete people's messages. They send me, um, if, if I, you know, feel like they're trying to pitch me something and I'm like, oh whatever, but when you, when you messages me, it actually caught my attention. I'm like, wow, I've never heard like a product like this. So this actually might be worth hearing out. And so sure enough, I heard them out and pretty frequent awesome where you guys are doing with the product. So, uh, before we get into it, do you want us to kind of give people, uh, Jen, uh, I guess just a general overview of what your company is and what the product is that you guys do. And then obviously we'll get into a lot more detail here in a little bit.Speaker 3 (01:52):Sure. So Siro is a sales coaching platform for field sales and door to door sales teams. So how zero works reps record all their conversations with customers through CRM and they'll surface to you their most coachable moments from their conversations that day. And at the end of the day in between your own doors at lunch, whatever it might be for you as a sales leader, you can jump into each moment and respond to them with a role play or piece of advice as easily as you might respond to a text message. Okay.Speaker 2 (02:25):Yeah, super awesome. And I had never really, I mean, I'm sure most people listen to this podcast. I think most of us have just recorded ourselves on like voice memos or some type of recording app. But, um, once Joe showed me on all the features, which we'll get into in more depth here in a little bit, um, it just made it so much easier to, you know, get transcriptions that are recording, help your team out. And yeah, just so much more streamlined than trying to do this on a voice recording app and, you know, listen back to it. So, uh, cool. Anyways, that's what the is, that's what the Siro software is. And so before we get into that, Joe, do you want to kind of walk us through your background, just like cells in general and the queen here, um, kind of your background in that whole, in the whole industry?Speaker 3 (03:14):Yeah, I'd love to. So my, my story and sales starts my freshmen summer in college. I got a letter in the mail to sell Cutco knives for vector marketing, and I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but it sounded like something that would look better on my resume than camp counselor. So, uh, I tried it, I ended up really liking it and being pretty good at it. Um, my after my first summer, I was the only student asked to come run the division headquarters as a sales manager of the following campaign. And we started with one sales rep at the beginning of the summer and ended up hiring over 180 throughout the course of the summer and being one of the top, top offices in the company that year. And it was an amazing experience. I learned so much from that, which I'm happy to talk more about.Speaker 3 (04:04):Um, and then next up for me as I finished up college, I wanted to get really good at building things, creating products. So I did a stint in software engineering and Amazon over on the Alexa team. So, you know, Michael, my, you know, Alexa wake me up to Michael Jackson. That was us. And, uh, when I, when I graduated college, I teamed up with my partner, Jake Ronan, who also got started in Cutco, spent two years at McKinsey. And, uh, we both quit, our jobs, started working on this thing and we've been doing that for about the past year or so. And then, Hey,Speaker 2 (04:37):Love it. That's cool. Did you guys know each other in Cutco then, or you just kind of made that connection after we met each other?Speaker 3 (04:44):So it's actually a really funny story. Uh, we didn't know each other while we were at Cutco, but we were both building separate competing apps for Cutco sales reps to make phone calls through, uh, without sort of knowing about each other. And Jake saw me on the app store, saw my app reached out to me, asked if I wanted to work together and, uh, working with Jake ended up being the best decision, uh, by far that I've made so far in my, in my young business career has been an awesome partner and we've done some, some really great things together. Yeah.Speaker 2 (05:19):That's awesome. Well, that's cool. And yeah. What makes it even cores? You guys have the Cutco background because, um, I think that makes, for me that makes a lot more powerful that you guys have been in sales. You know, what people kind of struggle with. And, um, all of the sales concepts is pretty similar across, you know, all industries. So it makes it a really powerful as you guys are, um, you know, trying to get your product launched and in, in the hands of more sales teams, which is awesome. But yeah, I wanted to hear a little bit about, more about your cook co background, Joe. Um, you guys got my mad respect just because to me that sounds like a, I don't know, like a tough product to sell. Maybe you tell me, but, um, like Caicos it pretty, pretty rough start, or how has it just like getting started in Cutco?Speaker 3 (06:07):Yeah. Uh, it was an awesome introduction to sales. Um, once you get in the home, uh, doing the demo, the product actually does a pretty decent job of, of selling itself. Um, the toughest part is actually booking the appointments over the phone and that's probably what is the most similar to the door to door experience. And because of that, we've seen a lot of people graduate from Costco into door to door and do really well. Um, and the biggest things that that I learned from from Cutco, um, the first thing was just that personal growth is not just a means to other ends. Um, it's an end in itself and it's one of the most noble ends. There is, um, it was a really growth focused culture. And I think all of direct sales, including DOD is very focused on, on growth as well. And it's one of the most rewarding things that you can focus on for yourself.Speaker 3 (07:04):Um, and at the risk of sounding like I'm tooting my own horn here. Um, you know, I, I graduated from Wharton, um, which is the best business school in the world, but I would trade, um, the Wharton experience for the Cutco experience. If someone made me the two things I learned at, at Costco that I would not have been able to learn anywhere else where risk tolerance and rejection tolerance, and those two things are not optional. Those are requirements. If you want to go out and start your own business. And I think the lack of those two attributes are the number one thing, holding Americans back in today's economy.Speaker 2 (07:46):Yeah, no, I agree. A hundred percent. And that's interesting. So your Cutco, was it door to door to, or was it mostly just like phone setting appointments and going to homes?Speaker 3 (07:56):Yeah, it was mostly setting appointments over the phone and then doing the appointments. And, um, once I'd set them up, I don't tell my manager, we're not supposed to do this, but I did go door to door a little bit in one of those pushes because I was running well on weeds and then wanted to try something new. Um, as one might expect my first time out there, I wasn't too hot, but the push ended up going, going well for me. SoSpeaker 2 (08:20):That's cool. So they like to encourage you to not go door to door, then they pretty much told me, you know, don't go door to door, just focus on the phone.Speaker 3 (08:28):Yeah. You start out with, with people, you know, that you practice with, you call them book appointments, and then at each appointment, um, you know, you ask for referrals and then sort of call those guys. Yeah.Speaker 2 (08:40):Okay. Gotcha. Now what's really cool. Cause I've heard a few people that have that background that are now in the solar industry and are crushing it now. And, um, a lot of things they learned from Cutco, they're applying to their solar cells and I know it's helping them a ton. Matter of fact, we had a guest on his name was Matt Crowder. I don't know if you'd know him, but, uh, he sold Cutco for, I think years too. And he just said the biggest thing for him is the like referral principles and Cutco. Cause he was just talking about how in every Cutco presentation, the next thing you had to do was just pretty much go through their whole list of contacts and say, all right, let's see what they could, could they possibly bike at the end, just help the customer get you referrals and really incentivize them for that. So he's getting just mountains of referrals now in solar. And I think it's just cause that Cutco journey, cause he knew that every single Cutco presentation he was walking out with referrals. So yeah. Tell me about, is that, would you agree with that? Was it pretty focused on referrals? And do you want to tell us a little bit about your referral process when you were in Cutco?Speaker 3 (09:41):Yeah, sure thing. Um, it's definitely very heavily focused on referrals because the number one thing you need as a sales rep to keep your business going is referrals. Like I'd rather have an appointment where it's a no sell, but I got 10 referrals then an appointment where I sell a $1,200 set and get zero referrals. Um, and we let people know that that the best way to prep people for referrals upfront is to get them tied into your personal story. So the most important thing that I've role play with reps, um, ad Cutco is their goal sharing at the beginning of the presentation. And so, um, before I have my reps dive into their conversations, I have them say by the way, um, before we dive into this, do you mind if I share my goals with you? And after that we let the rep authentically tell their story and share why they're in this business, why they're excited about the product, why they're sitting down in front of you and what I'm working on and how you can help me towards that.Speaker 3 (10:43):And once you get someone tied into you like that, when you make a friend before you make a sale, um, and they feel like they want to help you, that's the, that's the first step to opening the door to having them give you referrals. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing you want to do is just name drop. Um, as you go, uh, people that referred you on the way to that person and it's like, Hey, by the way, but so-and-so loved about it was this with so-and-so loved about the presentation was that, um, and sort of get them feeling like everyone gives a ton of referrals. And then the last neat trick that I saw, a lot of people do at, at Cutco is when they're asking for referrals, um, they'll take a binder with everyone's referrals that they wrote down on them.Speaker 3 (11:25):They're if you collect them like on a phone or using red card or something like that, just go back in and write them down on a piece of paper afterwards. And when you open the binder to get their referrals, just flip through a bunch of pages, full of names before you get to that one page that's empty. Um, and you can sort of make a show that like, oh, I can't find like a, like an open one, wait a second. Oh, here we go. Um, and, and that, those are the sort of the, the big three tips on referrals there. Yeah.Speaker 2 (11:54):That's awesome. No, I like that. And I like the personal story. That's something my Catherine really chaired before signing. That's cool. And so for like personal story, are you talking more like kind of their business goals? Or can you give us an example for what you mean by like say I'm telling you my personal story. What would your story be? When were you when you were open in these presentations?Speaker 3 (12:14):Sure. So how to put myself in the Headspace of a 19 year old Joe here, um, it was something like, you know, I got a letter in the mail for this job and I thought it seemed kind of weird, like selling knives, but I ended up really loving this thing because as an athlete, my favorite thing about this is the harder I work and the better I get, the more money, the more money I earned, but more importantly, the more things I learned and I want to run my own business someday. And when I love about this is it teaches me how to face rejection. Um, it teaches me how to make sales, which is something that's super important, um, everywhere else and there's opportunities to advance. So my biggest goal with you here today is that you like me, you want to recommend me to your friends and you'd recommend me for the promotion I have coming up. And in order to hit it, my goal was to get to $10,000 in sales by the end of the week, right now I'm at 5,000. Um, you don't have to buy the other 5,000 just to help me out by the way Mrs. Jones, if you do, that would be great. Um, but really I'm just here to, to, to, to work on my goals and make sure we're friends by the end of this presentation,Speaker 2 (13:27):Um, that's fire. I love that. It's cool. Cause you're getting them emotionally bought in and I'm sure they taught you this all the time, but you know, people buy with their emotion, then they're justifying it with the logic. So I think, especially in solar, we get caught up more in the logic piece of it, just because solar is so logical for people. It's like, look, you're paying 200 bucks a month right now. You're only gonna pay one 60 with solar. And then so many times, especially a newer reps, that's all they focus on. Um, but then they get cancels. They get people shopping out and everything. But I think that's the important thing that, especially in solar, we forget about if you can get these people bought in emotionally and then kind of bought into your cause that, oh, you're, um, we're trying to get to more, you know, this week or whatever.Speaker 2 (14:08):I liked that line a lot and people are a lot more willing to help you out and want to see you succeed and then obviously get more referrals from it too. So that's awesome. I'm definitely something I'm going to play with that. So, uh, yeah. Personal story, make the friend and then name drop as you go. And then yeah, I remember my, my buddy Matt Crowder that was on the podcast. He said a similar thing with the name list where he would just, you know, have a sheet all filled in and then he would just pass in the sheet and it wasn't even like an option really. He just said, okay. So yeah, what we do with everyone is we just help you get like, um, at least 10 people that could potentially benefit from our product. And so I'll help you. And then he would basically just have them go through their contacts and get they'll send people not limited to den. So, uh, yeah, that's been actually helping me a ton with referrals and slower as well. Um, but yeah, that's awesome. And then anything else? Um, how long, how long did you do Cutco for, by the way, Joe?Speaker 3 (15:06):Sure. So I was a sales rep for about a year and a half and then a sales manager for a campaign and a half.Speaker 2 (15:14):Okay. What does a campaign, what does that mean?Speaker 3 (15:17):Also a campaign is a third of the year, so there's the spring campaign, the fall campaign in the summer campaign. Um, gotcha.Speaker 2 (15:25):Cool. Okay. And so after Cutco, that's, when you went and did the whole business school thing and gotten the software stuff after thatSpeaker 3 (15:32):That's right. Yeah. I was sort of doing the business school and Cutco in parallel. Uh, I was in both the engineering school and the Wharton school at Penn. So, um, I was sort of getting the business and the technical side and the sales side all at the same time. So it was really a whirlwind of, of learning. Um, and my last summer going towards the end of college was when I did that software engineering stint at an Amazon, got a chance to write some real production code for a company that has some of the best engineering practices out there.Speaker 2 (16:04):Wow. That's incredible. That's awesome. Um, so I'm curious to know at Cutco we're like, role-plays a huge same as your in Cutco is. And would you say that contributed you to you like eventually making Siro and everything? Um, tell me about thatSpeaker 3 (16:20):For sure. Um, so I was driven to start Siro by two feelings that I had while I Cutco the first was just an overwhelming sense of gratitude for the amazing experience that I got while I was there. I would not be where I am without my cocktail experience. There's no way I could have started this thing. And the second feeling was just frustration that I couldn't replicate that experience for the people I was responsible for coaching. I had a ton of people that I was working with who were perfectly capable of creating awesome experiences, having the success I had, but their results weren't meeting their expectations. And I didn't have the time to help them. And even when I could set aside like an hour to sit down with them and figure out what was going wrong, um, it was really difficult to make that time productive because someone can tell me what's going wrong, but usually they're not right about it.Speaker 3 (17:18):And sometimes reps, aren't totally honest with you about what's going wrong and it's not because they're trying to deceive you. Like when you're struggling, the first person you lie to is yourself. And, you know, we might role play, but the way they role play is not going to be the way they role play with the customer. They might say they're having trouble handling this objection, but really the problems earlier in the conversation because it didn't gain the customer's trust. So I just thought, how awesome would it be if I could be a fly on the wall in these conversation and just listened to your last three or four referral approaches and see why you're not getting referrals, you know, listen to how you're sharing your goals. So I know why you're not getting the customer on your side. And, um, that that's sort of where the idea for this thing came from just the ability not to jump in and listen to an end tire hour long breezing and listen to the stuff that I knew reps were struggling with and leave them some feedback on a, on a situation they actually had. Hm.Speaker 2 (18:11):Yeah. That's cool. And when you were at Cutco where you guys kind of doing this whole same old school stuff of district coordinator on your phones and doing that, or did you have any like similar thing at Costco where you guys recorded yourselves?Speaker 3 (18:25):Yeah, so we, we tried it, um, a couple of times, but the problem was, it was difficult to do at scale because of how long these conversations were, you know, waiting through a voice memo, even getting a rep to send you a voice memo. Once they recorded actually turns out to be a pretty big problem. Um, and not knowing when they actually had their appointments and when they missed her record. So it was difficult to do as an office system. And so we only ended up using it sparingly. Um,Speaker 2 (18:58):Yeah, no, it makes sense. And that's pretty much the same that I've seen on solar sales seems to, it's just like, um, I don't know, sales reps just think it's a hassle. They don't want to get their phones out. They forget. And then they, after Korea, like 10 times before they get one, that's like an actual conversation, things like that. So it is a big ask and pretty much the only way we've gotten our teams to do it in the past is just like incentivizing say, Hey, if you guys record this day, we'll give you like 30 bucks just for recording. That's all you need to do. And even that sometimes like pulling teeth to get reps, to actually go out and do this just because if it is, you know, kind of a hassle and it is something they have to remember and, um, put forth effort to do.Speaker 2 (19:40):So I think that's a big key that you guys have. Um, I mean, you still got to put forth that effort with Siro and we'll talk about that more, but I think it just makes a lot easier and a lot more streamlined, so there's way less hassle. And then the rep doesn't have to remember to send you their reporting. It just gets sent to the manager automatically, things like that. Um, but yeah. So tell, um, you wanna tell us a little bit more about like how it first got started then, and then why you guys decided to like focus on the door to door industry and specific for your software, Joe?Speaker 3 (20:12):Sure. So we, we were always excited, uh, about door to door. Uh, from the very beginning we were talking to guys that at Vivint and other companies in the space, and we knew it was time to double down and focus mainly on door to door, especially solar. Um, after talking with Conner Ruggio they had decided at Aptive they were willing to pay just to try this thing based on the designs we had, we hadn't even built anything written, a single line of code. And he was like, yeah, this thing is awesome. We want to try this. And that's when we knew it's time to focus the door to door space. And so we launched a pilot with Aptive this past summer. Um, and since then we've gotten 40,000 sales conversations in the system. We have over 1300 reps who have used this thing and over 4,000 coaching comments have been sent through the system. Um, and that's just in the past couple of months here.Speaker 2 (21:07):Yeah. That's incredible. How did you guys first make the connection with it? You said his name was Conner from AptiveSpeaker 3 (21:13):Conner Ruggio. Uh, one of the presidents of sales over there. We reached out to him over LinkedIn. Um, it turns out Jake and I are pretty good at getting people to read our messages, even though a lot of people get gets fan. Um, so that's how we made the connection.Speaker 2 (21:28):Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. And no, I mean, that's all it takes too is, um, I mean, we're going through a similar thing actually, right now I've told you a little bit, but we've watched her Solciety, um, kind of training platform. So we're going through a similar thing, just trying to get that big domino and get people to start using it because once people see the benefits and you have some case studies and be like, look, look what the results they got helps a ton. Um, so yeah. Do you want, do you have any like stouts on results that, uh, and any like huge improvements that you saw from people Aptive or did they tell you, like, I don't know, some cool stats that you have to report from people that have been using it so far?Speaker 3 (22:05):Sure, sure. Um, so the biggest thing that people are loving about it so far is the time savings for sales leaders. We have guys who are saying, they went from spending 20 hours shadowing to spending two hours in Siro in a week, getting a certain amount of coaching value. Um, my favorite example is Logan Porter. He's a team lead over at Aptive. Um, he said that since they started using Siro faithfully, he saw the progression of this rookies pitches and sales increase exponentially. And when you look at the number of accounts sold per day, uh, for these reps, you can predict, uh, almost exactly what day they sought a recording and Siro because their accounts like double or triple, and he loved that. But his favorite part about it was how much time it gave him back. You know, a lot of us who are, who are coaching in this industry also have our own sales to make. And it's really difficult when you feel like you have to make a choice between [inaudible].Speaker 3 (23:07):And so, as an example, Logan, the week two of last summer, so the 11 accounts personally, and that's because he was doing a bunch of shadowing this summer after a couple of initial shadows, he was mostly coaching through Siro and he was able to sell 26 accounts personally that week. So almost doubling his personal sales, just because of those time savings there. Um, now obviously pest control pitches are much shorter than like a solar closing conversation. They might be anywhere from 10, 15 or 20 minutes, but why a Janet led like a hundred reps underneath them as a regional, got to the point where he could listen to 20 pitches in 12 minutes.Speaker 2 (23:49):Wow. That's so cool. And yeah, I mean, it's funny, cause it sounds like it's almost more beneficial probably to like the managers than it is, you know, like the new reps. Cause obviously it goes both ways, but like all the time-saving aspect of it and like you're mentioning the ability to be able to focus way more on yourselves and having to go out to people's areas, do more shadowing and uh, yeah, I mean, Joe, even, so we started using, it means, um, one of our coaching clients here over at, uh, that Solciety, we started using it. And um, could you not, I had been bugging my coaching client, his name's man I'd been bugging him for probably two and a half weeks and like, Hey man, send me a recording. Let's just do like a, you know, door approach analysis. Let's see if there's anything we can focus on, help you out and does the same old story like, oh Taylor, I forgot.Speaker 2 (24:44):Oh Taylor, I didn't get any good recordings today. Oh, Taylor, um, my phone deleted it, like all this same stuff you hear from reps over and over. And then right when we got Siro hooked up for both of us is like, you know, the next hour we are already lined up and I was already able to give them feedback. And I know he's seen, you know, improvements quickly now just because, you know, it's way better system set up. So yeah. Um, I think that's the main thing is just the time saving aspect and then being able to focus, especially I can imagine if you're leading a huge team, like I was getting overwhelmed, just trying to do this and bug one person to send it to me. So I can't even imagine time-saving with like you leading a team of like 20, 30 reps and then trying to bug them all to send and recording.Speaker 2 (25:27):So I think that's huge. Um, but no, that's cool. And so, yeah. Do you want to tell, like maybe just give us a walkthrough more and we can dig a little bit more into the features and then, um, tell us, I dunno, how, how they've been helped for any, uh, I guess any more takeaways from the features. So I guess first of all, records people on the app. So I don't know, maybe give us like, I guess sell us on serial here. If you're trying to get like a new client, tell us what the features are and how it's beneficial to the teams. You don't mind.Speaker 3 (26:00):Um, so again, sort of the one sentence overview is zero keeps your reps learning by recording all their conversations and servicing to you the most coachable moments. So you can dive into each one and respond to them like you would a text message. And so what that looks like for, for guys on the doors, they'll record right through Sera, either on their iPhone, their Android, or their tablet, any mobile device. And when they're done with the conversation, they can optionally send a moment from it to their coach. So wherever they felt like they were struggling, um, and it'll go to the coaches inbox. And as a coach, I can go through this inbox, choose which ones I want to dive into based on the, of like what the rep needs help with. And once I open it up, it might be a 10 minute recording, a 15 minute recording, a 60 minute recording.Speaker 3 (26:51):Obviously I don't have time to listen to a ton of these. So what I want to do is get to the point where the rep needs the most help, give them that feedback and move on to the next conversation. And that's helpful because it saves time for me, but B because a rep can only get one or two takeaways and actually implement them at one time. Anyway. So when you're spending like an hour diving deep on a reps conversation, a lot of that hour is wasted because they're only going to be able to take away a small portion of those things. So as an example, and this was super common for me, I'm sure it's common for you guys. Um, imagine you have a rep who the customer is asking questions that are demonstrating they're, they're interested and they're asking questions. And the rep is just busy entering the questions, losing control of the conversation and they don't set the appointment.Speaker 3 (27:42):Um, so if a rep flag that for me, uh, they flag setting the appointment. I could jump in and listen to them. Um, as they're struggling to handle this, this customer's questions and the moment I hear him starting to lose the conversation, I can hit audio comment and record how they might've role-played it better. So I say, Hey, next time, just answer this question and then try something like this. But when our technician comes around tomorrow, they'll be able to handle all those questions for you and make sure you're all up to speed to mornings or afternoons work better for you. Then you send that comment will resume the conversation and you can listen for the next moment before you move on to the next one. Um, so that's sort of the, how the coaching flow works. Now. The other value proposition that I think is actually even better for reps is the chance to learn from some of the top people around the company who match my sales style.Speaker 3 (28:41):So if there's a situation that a lot of people are struggling with, maybe it's like the spouse, not home objection or explaining net metering correctly. The moment someone on the team nails it, you can just clip that portion and drop it into group meeting or the WhatsApp, put it in the training library and a recognize them for doing a great job and incentivize everyone else on the team to try and nail those things so they can get their conversations, uh, shared and sort of flex on everyone. Um, but you also educate the other guys. And the moment you give a rep, an example of a sales rep who matches their style, that's better than them crushing something. You give them a target. And I think a lot of people struggle with superficial wise, like money, motivation, things like that. But once a rep gets a vision of who they want to become, what they could be like in two to three months, if they keep learning, then they have intrinsic motivation and that's a Y um, that can actually withstand the adversity that you face every day out on the doors when it's lonely out there.Speaker 2 (29:46):I love that. And now it's cool because especially if it's like, I don't know, a new year rep or a first year rep for a newer rep, um, it's like, it doesn't necessarily have to be an experienced guy. That's getting their clips and out you be like, Hey, this is someone's for their first year two. And then they're seeing that, okay, we got a new rep, that's already crushing it. He's already being featured. And then I think it's cool for people to be able to see, um, you know, reps in similar situations and be able to, um, just have that motivation, you know, copy what they're seeing. That's cool. I didn't even, I didn't even realize that. I don't think so. It's almost doubles as like a training platform to, for the company to be able to see clips. And then so once, so can you save on there? And, um, everyone that has access to the app, they can see kind of the top, uh, I don't know, I guess overcoming objections or whatever that clip might be and they can go on there and access that later too.Speaker 3 (30:40):Yeah, that's right. So we'll silo it to your company. Um, so that only people in your company are able to access it. There'll be a trending section for the top clips at the time across any category. And then we'll create custom categories for you based on what you think reps should be able to dive into and, and focus on. Um, and because Siro, bookmarks all the key places of the conversation and transcribes it, it's really easy to find clips that will match those things. So if you know, if there's a rep that's really great at pricing, you just want to populate the training library, just like you would, when you're giving some poaching feedback, you open up one of their recordings. We'll bookmark where they went over pricing, where they encountered this ice decise breaker and where they got the business card smoke screen. Um, and you can jump right to where, you know, there'll be crushing it, um, highlight the piece of the transcript, which we'll also provide for you automatically where they're crushing it and then share it either to your group. Me WhatsApp, I message. And then right to the training library and zero.Speaker 2 (31:40):Wow. Yeah, that's incredible. So much, so much time saving right there. And then, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you, so you'll add in that you can add in your company's presentation or pitch or whatever, and then it'll like automatically kind of categorize it based on kind of what step they're on and things like that too. Right?Speaker 3 (31:59):Exactly. And that's what makes these moments as easy to respond to as a text message is the ability to jump right to them and what our conversation engine will do over time is learn your pitch. So it knows this is what pricing looks like for this organization. Um, and obviously reps will differ on how they say certain things. Um, but it will be robust enough to detect, um, uh, differences across reps and let you know where they're doing the intro pricing, um, net metering, you know, explaining your company and, and so forth.Speaker 2 (32:37):That's cool. So this thing is like learning. It's like, uh, I guess that's why it's AI, right? It's like learning your pitch and, um, becoming smarter as days, go on stuff like that. It's not going to come alive and destroy the planet or anything. [inaudible],Speaker 2 (32:58):That's awesome though. So yeah, I mean, in all seriousness, so much time saving and I noticed that too, just, um, just the transcripts. That's another big thing. Cause, um, like how many times have we have to listen just like fluff, that's going on? Just like stuff. That's not even part of the presentation where as I was using it with men, our coaching client, I was able to just skip past all the stuff that's okay. I don't need to listen to hear them talk about their dog or how fluffy their cat was or how fat that cat was. So I don't need to listen to all that. I'm just going to go straight to the meat and potatoes and give them the feedback he needs and then get out and get out of there. So yeah, that's something I was really impressed with. So yeah, ton of cool features.Speaker 2 (33:37):And, uh, Joe, I know you guys are focused primarily on companies and that's probably how it's most beneficial if companies can use it and, um, you know, share all this throughout the entire organization. But, um, do you have any right now, do you have just like individual reps or let's say other companies aren't, I don't know, fully bought in on the, on the idea yet. Do you have any examples of just like reps using it for themselves or ways that it just looks like a single rep wanting to use it, that they could, you know, be able to still get benefits with it? DoSpeaker 3 (34:07):Sure. So, um, most of our clients right now, um, started out with a handful of teams or even just one team who started using this thing. Um, we had a meeting, a sales demo the other day with the guys at Google fiber out in Utah. And the reason they set the meeting was because the rep from Aptive came over and said, Hey, like, let's try this zero thing and booked a meeting with me. Um, so if you're a rep who is excited about using Siro to record your pitches, being able to digest them faster, um, and get more access to your coach, um, let them know and send them to our website, book a demo. I'm happy to speak to them and get your team on it. And, uh, if your team likes it, then we can, we can talk about moving it up after that. But, um, we're perfectly happy to work with any sales team, larger, small, um, our mission with this thing. I think direct sales is an amazing opportunity in this country. I think it's one of the most meritocratic industries that exists and is going to equip you with the skills you need to succeed. So you know what, whatever you are larger, small, we'll put together a plan that we can, we can get you on this thing and help you achieve those things.Speaker 2 (35:24):Yeah, for sure. And, and no, I'm, I think Joe and your team, you guys are super giving and, you know, trying to really train to get it out. So, um, I think even if you just want to like check it out and go back to your team, that's how you can experience it and just try it for yourself. And then, um, for sure, go back to your team. Cause that's how it's going to be most beneficial is getting an entire team on it and getting you guys all bought in and helping each other. Um, so yeah, speaking to that before we kind of start wrapping up here, Joe, um, just, um, to be able to connect with you and get the demo and all that, is it just best to go to your website or where's the best place people can kind of reach out to you and, um, be able to book a demo and everything.Speaker 3 (36:04):Sure. Head to www.siro.ai. And you can just book a demo with us there, let us know that you heard of us from Solarpreneurs and we'll get you a discount in there as well. And I'm happy to talk to you and figure out how we can help you.Speaker 2 (36:22):Awesome. So guys, our Solarpreneurs go take Joe up on this. If you're not recording yourself right now, it's probably because of those excuses that you taught that you're telling yourself, like I was just takes too much time. It's too much hassle. You have to go back and find the parts that I'll put that are applicable to you. And what school I was telling you about this, Joe. But we had a guest on, I think it was about a month ago now about Mikey Lucas. He's a consulting, a lot of people in solar, I'm helping out a ton of people. And that was one of his top tips is tops trainings that he did. He actually did a training for our team do. And she gave us like a sheet and he was like, guys, I guarantee you, if you just start recording yourself, you don't even have to send it to managers or other people just record yourself and then go through this checklist and give yourself the feedback.Speaker 2 (37:08):And I think that's 90% of the problem. People just aren't willing to record themselves. Cause you don't even have to give your, you don't have to send it to anyone necessarily, but it's like, you know, I was a musician. Like that's what I studied in school and everything. And I think the times when I improved the most is because I was recording myself like crazy and I was going back and just me listening to it. I didn't even have to get feedback, but it's like, cause we think we say one thing, we think we're doing it one way, but the recording never lies. Right. We can go back and listen and it might be completely different how we thought we were doing it. So that's another thing. Um, just even if you're not using it with your team, start recording yourself and Siro, I think is the best tool that I've seen. I'd never heard anything like this. So appreciate you guys, Joe, for coming up with the, uh, you know, the software and it's gonna, I think it's going to change the industry. And I think you've already seen that too. So, um, yeah, I know we've got to wrap up pretty quick, Joe, but uh, any, um, we always kind of leave with just, uh, any final words of advice or anything that you can leave with that the solar industry specifically, do you feel like could help our Solarpreneurs out, out here trying to change the world?Speaker 3 (38:18):Yeah, absolutely. So my biggest thing in sales guys is you have to have a really strong why, obviously it's not an easy business and if you're wiser, superficial, they're not going to be able to withstand the adversity that you're going to face. Um, and the best exercise that I'm aware of to find a why is to think about if you were able to execute at a hundred percent and fully realize your potential for the next 12 months and truly perform to the maximum of, of your natural abilities, what would you sell? Like what numbers would you put up and then take a look at that number and think about what kind of person you'd have to become to hit those numbers. What it would feel like to wake up as that person in the morning, what it would feel like to, um, to, to interact with other people as that person and to fully embody that in your daily life.Speaker 3 (39:15):And that's a reward that is worth going after. And that's a why that can withstand the university on the doors and any plan to become that that person will include recording yourself on the doors to take ownership over your conversations, to perform at your highest ability. And whether you record those things in, in Siro or not, make sure you do record them. If you're not you're burning money and potentially even losing out on, on faster promotions. The moment I started doing this, I doubled my average order and I could have got promoted way faster had I done it earlier. So whether it's through zero or not record your conversations, if you want to do it through Siro head to www.siro.ai and I'm happy to chat. Good luck on the doors guys.Speaker 2 (40:04):I love it. Fire Joe. Thanks. Thanks again for coming on guys, go check out his software. It's going to change the way you sell, bring it back to your teams. And uh, yeah, like Joe said, whatever you do, just record yourself, even if you don't get on it. So thanks again for coming on Joe. And hopefully we get lots of people reaching out to, if anything, go give him a shout out and let him know you appreciated everything he shared on the episode today. So, Joe, thanks again for coming on my man.Speaker 3 (40:28):My pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you, Taylor. All right.Speaker 2 (40:31):We'll talk soon. Hey, Solarpreneurs quick question. What if you could surround yourself with the industry's top performing sales pros, marketers, and CEOs, and learn from their experience and wisdom in less than 20 minutes a day. For the last three years, I've been placed in the fortunate position to interview dozens of elite level solar professionals and learn exactly what they do behind closed doors to build their solar careers to an all-star level. That's why I want to make a truly special announcement about the new learning community, exclusively for solar professionals to learn, compete, and win with top performers in the industry. And it's called the Solciety, this learning community with designed from the ground up to level the playing field to give solar pros access to proven members who want to give back to this community and help you or your team to be held accountable by the industry. Brightest minds four, are you ready for it? Less than $3 and 45 cents a day currently Solciety is open, launched, and ready to be enrolled. So go to Solciety.co To learn more and join the learning experience. Now this is exclusively for Solarpreneur listeners. So be sure to go to solciety.co And join. We'll see you on the inside. 

SpyHards Podcast
057. Gotcha! (1985)

SpyHards Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 21, 2021 80:48


Agents Scott and Cam slip under the covers and go undercover with Anthony Edwards and Linda Fiorentino in the sexy 1985 spy comedy Gotcha!    Directed by Jeff Kanew. Starring Anthony Edwards, Linda Fiorentino, Jsu Garcia, Alex Rocco, Marla Adams and Klaus Löwitsch. Pick up exclusive SpyHards merch, including the new "What Does Vargas Do?" t-shirt by @shaylayy, available only at Redbubble Social media: @spyhards View the NOC List and the Disavowed List at Letterboxd.com/spyhards Podcast artwork by Hannah Hughes.

Jim Hightower's Radio Lowdown
Repair Your Own Products? Corporations Say No!

Jim Hightower's Radio Lowdown

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 24, 2021 2:09


America's economic and political inequality has led workaday Americans to exclaim: “The system is broken. Let's fix it!” But there's another version of this protest that I'm hearing more frequently these days: “The system is fixed. Let's break it!” That certainly applies to such rigged systems as money in politics and voter suppression, but it's also relevant to seemingly mundane matters that restrain our personal freedoms. One of the insidious “fixes” we need to break is the claim by brand-name corporations that we consumers must be banned by law from repairing the products they sell to us! The weak battery in your cell phone, the fuel sensor in a farmer's tractor, some gizmo in the toaster you bought, a fuse in your business' delivery truck – you could fix all of these yourself or, with little hassle, take the problem to a local repair shop. But, no, such manufacturing powerhouses as Apple, John Deere, and Panasonic assert that only their corporate technicians are authorized to open the product – which you own! – to make it work again. So, you are expected to deliver it to their distant facility, wait however-many days or weeks they tell you, and pay an inflated price. They've literally fixed the “fix” for consumer products. They impose their control by making the products as needlessly complicated as possible, then claiming that the complexity is their patented proprietary product. Thus, they say they don't have to provide repair manuals or sell repair tools to consumers or independent shops. Gotcha. To give their closed profiteering system the force of law, the giants have deployed armies of lobbyists and lawyers to legislatures and courts, arguing that self-repair people really are scoundrels trying to circumvent safety and environmental rules. This is Jim Hightower saying... For information and action, go to the US Public Interest Research Group: USpirg.org.

The Gravel Ride.  A cycling podcast
Sage Titanium - Dave Rosen Founder / CEO

The Gravel Ride. A cycling podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 17, 2021 34:43


This week we sit down with Dave Rosen, founder and CEO of Sage Titanium. After connecting at the ENVE Custom Builder Round Up, we sat down to talk about the Titanium Storm King, its performance goals and the multiple finishes that adorned this show bike. This show was presented by ENVE. Sage Titanium Website / Instagram  Join The Ridership Support the Podcast Automated Transcription (please excuse the typos): ENVESage Titanium  [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. [00:00:07] This week on the podcast, we've got Dave Rosen, CEO, and founder of Sage Bicycles out of Oregon. Dave. And I happened to meet at the ENVE builder Roundup, and this is one of five episodes related to the NV Roundup that happened at the end of June in Ogden, Utah. I have to reiterate. If you're known for the company, you keep.  [00:00:29] ENVE is known for exceptional relationships. That room was filled with outstanding builders from all over the world that chose to spec their custom creations with ENVE components and parts, including their adventure fork stems bars. And of course their wonderful gravel wheels. If you haven't already followed ENVE on social media channels.  [00:00:54] Definitely do. And I highly highly recommend you seeking out imagery from the grow Dio event. So many beautiful bikes, so many beautiful paint jobs really worth looking at and keeping on your calendar for next year. If you happen to have the opportunity to race the grody. Event. It was an amazing ride out of Ogden, Utah.  [00:01:18] That really checked a lot of boxes for me. It was both technical and challenging and scenically. Beautiful. Definitely one to have on your gravel calendar for 2022. With all that said let's dive right in to my interview with Dave Rosen, from Sage bicycles. Dave, welcome to the show. [00:01:39] David Rosen (Sage): Thanks Craig.  [00:01:40] Craig Dalton: Great to see you. After seeing you in Utah at the ENVE builder, Roundup, what a, what an event. It was.  [00:01:46] David Rosen (Sage): It really was fantastic. I had such a good time. It was so much fun. [00:01:49] Just being able to reconnect with friends. Doing industry stuff. Again, it just, it was way too long. And to be able to, meet new customers and that kind of thing, it just, it was just, it was great. And then just riding bikes, it was all about bikes. Just everything we did from to the little short track event, it was a really good time. [00:02:08] Yeah. I thought it was  [00:02:09] Craig Dalton: funny that some of the builders were actually taking the bikes they built and racing them or riding them in the grody event.  [00:02:15] David Rosen (Sage): The next. Yeah that's what I did with mine. It was just, that's why I brought it. It was it's meant to be written. It's meant to be raced. [00:02:22] Although I really wouldn't classify my writing as racing so much as it was surviving at my own pace. So I can make it back in time for beer. There was a bit  [00:02:31] Craig Dalton: of that survival strategy in my day as well, but it was a great reminder and seeing all these great builders that I've wanted to have more of these conversations and particularly excited to talk about Sage Titanic. [00:02:43] So why don't we just start off with learning a little bit more about what led you to start the company and when it was started?  [00:02:50] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah, so I started the company officially on paper in 2012. My first inventory was produced in 2013. At the time the original intent with the brand was to actually make the frames overseas. [00:03:06] For that in the beginning with the idea of offering a lower cost price point, competitor to what was out there. I knew I wanted to do titanium. It was always about titanium. I've been in love with titanium as a frame material for ever since the eighties, when I would see, titanium, Italian bikes rolling around and, central park, New York city, which is where I'm originally from not central park, mind you, but New York city. [00:03:28] And for me, it was always about Thai, but in this instance, I thought, it might be good to do a price point. And what I realized is over the course of that first year is the quality suffered. And, the reality is you get what you pay for. And yeah, the pricing could be cheap, blah. [00:03:44] There's a reason why it's cheap. And so the quality of the bikes suffered, the stuff we put out was fine, but we had more failures than we had successes. And, we've taken care of all of our customers that have had issues. And then there are others. Never heard from him. Everything's fine. [00:03:59] Wasn't it. Dave, was there a particular  [00:04:01] Craig Dalton: style of bike that you targeted at that time? It was a bit early, obviously for gravel in those days in 2012.  [00:04:07] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah, we did actually a while we did have a road bike it was more about the cyclocross bike and we actually had a commuter bike that would be the precursor to the current gravity. [00:04:20] It was designed around larger tires. Not as massive as what you're seeing today and their geometry was more relaxed than a road bike, similar to a cross bike, but with a longer wheel base. So it really was very versatile and we actually marketed it more as a commuter bike both a drop bar and a flat bar version, basically the same frame, just different builds. [00:04:40] But it showed the versatility of the bike for what it is. Gotcha. So in  [00:04:44] Craig Dalton: that first year, you were unhappy with the production partner in China that you had. Yeah. It could very easily have been the end of Sage titanium at that point. But what did you do?  [00:04:54] David Rosen (Sage): I basically just stepped back for a moment and analyzed what was going on. [00:04:59] People, customers. The concept of our brand. They liked what we were doing as a small builder, or, the just the ability to offer it's this Oregon, the Oregon brand connection, all that sort of stuff. The bikes were authentic. The designs were good. But it was just, they liked what we were doing, but they didn't necessarily like the maiden China aspect. [00:05:21] And so it really. Yeah, you're absolutely right. We could have folded up right then and there and not known what to do, but instead I made the decision to push forward with maiden USA. And so in 2014 is when I pivoted the brand. And instead of being more of a budget focused, mid tier titanium brand, I was like, we're going all in on the premium stuff. [00:05:43] And that's when we started our relationship with ENVE and instead of buying. Shimano 1 0 5, we're now buying Shimano duress. And it's all carbon this, then it's just, we're going high end and frames are made in USA. That is always the key and being able to push that out and and get that out there. [00:06:00] And then as we've, as the brand has moved along, we've been able to slowly evolve it. So the designs have gotten better. The line has expanded. We found our niche. Gravel bikes in particular. And then the mountain bikes are doing really well for us. But then we've been able to expand with now our finishes. [00:06:16] And so we've been able to continue to evolve the brand over these past from where it started nine years ago, to where it is now, the brands, It's a complete turnaround. Other than the name there, there's not much, that's the same between the two,  [00:06:29] Craig Dalton: interesting. So can you talk to the listener a little bit about why you love titanium as a frame material with a particular eye on the gravel market and what makes it a great material for gravel bikes? [00:06:40] David Rosen (Sage): So the reason I love titanium is it was always for me growing up, it was that space, age material, it was the stuff that was used in the space shuttle and, fighter jets and that sort of thing. So it's got this mystique about it, if you will. It was back in the I'm trying not to date myself, but back in the eighties, it was like, It was sexier. [00:07:04] It was it. Wasn't nothing wrong with steel. I love steel. I love aluminum. I love carbon. Everything has its place for where it should be, but the tie bikes back then there was just something mystical about them. You'd see plenty of steel bikes riding around plenty of aluminum bikes, but it was very few titanium bikes. [00:07:22] When you saw one, it was special. And so that always made an imprint on me kind of thing. And that's where I initially fell in love with it. The. What has drawn me to it from a builder standpoint? And the reason why I only focus on titanium is because of the durability of the material. [00:07:38] The the, how far it can bend the fatigue, resistance of the material. If the fact that it's rust-proof it's, I live in the Pacific Northwest, steel bikes are awesome, but they can rust if you don't take care of them. And if you take care of them, they're fine. But if you don't, they can rust titanium. [00:07:55] Doesn't rust. Titanium has a higher fatigue resistance point where you can bend the tube farther in titanium and it'll snap back before it breaks versus steel or aluminum for that matter. So inherently, then it then gives itself this ride quality. Again, maybe this is an old term, but it was called the magic carpet ride because it just smooths everything out. [00:08:19] And it's one of those things that when you're on it, if you ride a carbon bike on chip seal or an aluminum bike on chip seal or even steel for that matter, but then you write a tie, it there's a vibration, but if you ride titanium on chip seal, it mutes it out. It's just, it's really amazing what the material can do. [00:08:36] And the fact that it can be repaired easily. It's the forever bike. You're going to have a tie bike for 20, 30, 40 years. The only reason to change it at some point is just because it's outdated and that's, and even then, that's not really a reason to change it. Cause there's always, the desire to keep those historical bikes. [00:08:55] So yeah, my  [00:08:56] Craig Dalton: father's got one sitting in the garage with, I think a mag 21 fork on it and cantilever lever brakes.  [00:09:02] David Rosen (Sage): And he'll never get  [00:09:03] Craig Dalton: rid of it, a reason for him to replace it, other than he doesn't know what he's missing, because he's never written disc, disc brakes at this point.  [00:09:11] David Rosen (Sage): Exactly. But beyond that, it's just, it's a bike he's going to keep, and he's got a lot of good memories for it. [00:09:16] So  [00:09:17] Craig Dalton: early it's at Sage, thinking about the cross-market and the commuter market. When did gravel start to become a thing? When did you start to see those trends start to appear and what your customers were asking for?  [00:09:30] David Rosen (Sage): I would say I started to see it in 2015 2014 and 2015. So the, our first USA frames were 2014. [00:09:38] We had a road, we had a road frame and a cross. Which we brought up, we improve the designs based on what was originally made in China, made some refinements to it okay, we've took, we've taken our learnings and move forward. The commuter bike we dropped. And it just, it wasn't where I wanted the brand to be it. [00:09:54] Wasn't where I wanted the brand to focus on. And so drop that and just started with the two bikes to begin with. But it left this hole in the line of where I felt we needed to another bike in place to round things out. And my friends and I, at that time would go out on these rides. We take our cross bikes and we were going and doing gravel rides on our cross bikes. [00:10:15] Some guys would use their rode bikes and they, 25 mill tires was considered a fat tire back in 2014 and 2015. And we'd go out and go ride gravel. And, some buy, somebody would get a flat sometimes. You wouldn't and sometimes, we'd get into some gnarly stuff and that's why you wanted a crossbite, cause it had bigger tires, but then the road bikes always beat you to the gravel, and so it was just this weird mix of what's the right bike. And there were quite a few events. Grind Duro is a great example of one where it was very much about choose your weapon. And because there were, there's plenty of paved road and grind. But then there's plenty of crazy stages of, single track and gravel road and what's the right bike. [00:11:01] And so people were bringing all these different bikes and there was no specific bike that you could just point to and go, that's the type of bike I need for this event. And there was, it was a wild west kind of mentality, which is really kinda cool. And I still think the gravel segment the way it continues to evolve. [00:11:18] Exhibits that kind of, bring what, run what you got thing and, and modify what you can, but it was around them that I started seeing that desire for something along those lines. And for me here for where I live in Beaverton, Oregon, which is just outside of Portland, I'm a little west of Portland. [00:11:34] Yeah. There is, there's plenty of good gravel, like 10 miles from my house. So I'm not going to drive to the gravel. I'm going to ride my bike to the gravel. So the initial gravel bike I designed was really around the concept of, I wanted it to be fun on the road. And when I got to the gravel, I could tear up the gravel and then go ride for 40 miles on the gravel and then come back home for a 20 mile paved ride or whatever it was, wherever it dropped me off. [00:12:00] And so that was the Genesis of the first gravel bike. It was, you had to ride it to the gravel. It wasn't, I get people have to drive sometimes, that was the idea. And was  [00:12:09] Craig Dalton: that the  [00:12:10] David Rosen (Sage): Barlow? That was the Barlow correct.  [00:12:13] Craig Dalton: And so what sort of tire size capacity did the bar  [00:12:16] David Rosen (Sage): Barlow accept? [00:12:17] It's always accepted 40 millimeter tires. 700. Or six 50 by 50. There weren't a lot of tires in that size when it first came out. I use the ENVE all road fork as the fork of choice for the Barlow, because it was it's designed around a 38, but we can actually squeeze in a 40. So we've done it. [00:12:34] It's certain tires, it works great. Some tires not as great because the fork is designed for what it is. The frame clears a 40 no problem. But it's, the fork is a little bit of a. But we designed the bike around that. And so that gave us the ability to really push the envelope. So where everybody's saying, oh, 30 and 32 millimeter tires of the gravel, I'm throwing 30 fives and who's got the fattest 40 millimeter tire I could find. [00:12:58] And at the time that was great. And so the Barlow was really ahead of the game in that regard. And then  [00:13:04] Craig Dalton: subsequently you introduced an, another model, the storm chaser. When did that come into the world? Sorry, storm. Storm king my bad. When did the storm king come into being and what were the sort of the drivers from the industry and riders that you were seeing that said, okay, the Barlow is one thing, but the storm king is going to be this other thing. [00:13:25] David Rosen (Sage): So I, I have a rider I sponsor he's a retired former world tour pro and he. He w he still races for me kinda thing. He does mountain, and he does gravel, and those are his focuses. And he took the Barlow to Unbound before it was relaunched as Unbound when it was DK. [00:13:44] And this was back in 2018, I believe if I remember correctly. And he took the Barlow there and he used, he was using the Barlow and all the gravel events that were popping. And he was encountering challenging terrain would be the best way to put it. Just, big rocks big, just nasty, just eat your tires up rocks kind of thing. [00:14:07] And he came back and he said, okay here's my opinion on everything. We need bigger tires. And I need a little bit more of an upright riding position as opposed to not quite as well. Cause the Barlow is is a little bit more aggressive. It's not as aggressive as our road bike, but it's definitely slacker and a little bit more upright. [00:14:25] But he wanted it even more. And so that was the main driver because it was based on race input. So it was, is doing skull hollow, one 20 and DK at the time were the two big ones, other events, it was working great. But for these other events these, just these handful of them. Where the terrain was nuts. [00:14:44] He said, we need something bigger. And I saw the writing on the wall as there's more of these crazy events that are starting to pop up, we're going to need a bike. That's going to be able to compete in those events. Not just SBT is a great example of the Barlow's perfect Belgian waffle ride. The Barlow works perfect. [00:15:02] It depends on which Belgian waffle ride right now. But anyway, that was the gig. I find that  [00:15:06] Craig Dalton: fascinating for someone at that end of the spectrum of the sport, a professional athlete, noting that bigger fatter slacker is actually going to be faster in these events, because I think it is something that the listener can really take away. [00:15:20] It's really easy for you to think, oh, being on one of these road, plus bikes is what's going to make me faster, but in a lot of these events and particularly for the more average athlete who spending a longer time in the center, A more comfortable bike, a more stable bike with buy bigger tires could actually be the bike of choice. [00:15:38] I  [00:15:38] David Rosen (Sage): would agree. If you think about it, if you're choosing between a 32 millimeter tire versus a 40 millimeter tire or a 36 and a 50, whatever it may be. And you're thinking the smaller tire is going to be faster because it's less rotating weight and it's going to roll faster for the tread, whatever it may be. [00:15:57] Yeah. You're probably right. How many flats are you potentially fixing and how much time are you going to waste with flats? Whereas the rolling resistance of the larger tires, isn't really that far off of the smaller tires. Yes. You're carrying more weight, but if you have more assurance that you can go faster through the rough stuff without damaging the bike, you're going to be faster overall. [00:16:18] You look at the, you look at some of the pros like Ted king and those guys, I think they're always trying to push as big a tire as they can run without it being. So early slower,  [00:16:28] Craig Dalton: that seems to be the trend. And for me, like I'm spending 30, 40% more time out there on these courses than the pro athletes are. [00:16:35] So I've got to think about the general wear and tear. My day is probably more akin to an iron man triathlon than American Don,  [00:16:42] David Rosen (Sage): you and me both 12 hour days for you. Exactly. Yeah, me too.  [00:16:47] Craig Dalton: So let's talk a little bit more specifically about the storm king and the type of tires it can access.  [00:16:52] David Rosen (Sage): So it's designed around a 700 by 50 six 50 by two point. [00:16:58] Oh, I'm sorry. 2.2 is usually pretty good. Because we can make, because we make each storm king individually, one at a time, the customer really has the opportunity to specify, I am going to run this size tire kind of thing, so we can modify the rear end of the. To accommodate the tire, obviously picking the right fork is always key. [00:17:19] Of course. In instances we just had a customer, he sent us the wheel, the full wheel and the tire, and it's okay, great. And then we just, we throw it in the frame and make sure it fits. So this way we can truly customize it to what's the worst case scenario you're going to run on this bike. [00:17:34] Craig Dalton: Do you have a stock chain stay length that on the storm king or does it going to modify based on those criteria that the customer entrance.  [00:17:43] David Rosen (Sage): It's gonna, it's gonna modify based on it's this no, no stock chain stay length. It's gonna modify based on the based on the wheel size, the tire size and actually the drive train and the dry train specifically. [00:17:57] So is it GRX? Is it Eckhart? Is it force wide? Is it Altegra stuff like that kind of thing? All of those factors we actually play in to to designing the chain, stay length because if you get it wrong and you make it too short, you run into clearance issues that it's you're stuck, but if we know what you want going into it, we can build it specifically. [00:18:19] And we really we're dialing in the process. We continue to do it every day or making it,  [00:18:23] Craig Dalton: That might be a good segue into just describing for the listener. What does that customer journey look like if they want to get on a storm king, what does the process look like? How long does it take to get one? [00:18:34] David Rosen (Sage): So the process usually begins with the customer, listening to this podcast, seeing a review online or an ad in a magazine or something along those lines. And then pretty much reaching out through the website is usually how it works. It's very rare. As crazy as it sounds that somebody will buy a bike, sight unseen through the website, it happens, but it's, a complete stock build. Here you go. This is what I want. And that sort of thing. That's, it's rare because this is a very personal purchase. And so usually the customer is going to reach out through the contact form on our website. [00:19:10] Usually usually it's me who is responding, but it could be one of our other folks here. But nine times out of 10 it's usually me that everybody's speaking to. And they'll reach out through email, I'll respond back and we start a dialogue and it could be a case of let's get on the phone and talk it through and what's understand what the build is you're looking for. [00:19:30] And we can really customize the spec and the bill. You know of the complete bike. Some customers are only looking for a frame or a frame set, and that's fine too. And it's, let's go through the specs of that. And the process is quite a bit of email quite a bit of phone calls if needed. When the customer's ready to move forward, they put a deposit down and then the design process begins. [00:19:51] Usually if the customer has a fit that they've done recently and they want to use those fit numbers, then we use. If they're here local in Portland, then we have them see our fitter and we get, they get a professional fit done. And if they want to come into town, I've had a couple people actually fly in from Northern California, for example and have fits done here. [00:20:10] And then I get the numbers and, go to town on designing the frame and lead time on frames right now, I'd say is about four months from when we actually, when the design is. So that doesn't include the lead time. It doesn't include the time that we spend talking prior to and dialing in all that sort of stuff. [00:20:28] When the design is handed off to my welder right now, we're at about a four month lead time for framework.  [00:20:34] Craig Dalton: Are there limitations in terms of the areas of the bike that can be customized? Head tube, size, top tube lent anything that's off the table or is everything on  [00:20:42] David Rosen (Sage): the table now everything's on the table. [00:20:44] I've had one or two customers that have been very vocal about, I want the head tube to be this, and I want this to be the seat angle and that sort of thing. And it's a process we go through and I'm more than happy to accommodate the customers if they're, sure. That's what they want kind of thing. [00:20:59] But usually it's a case of, if I get your X, Y coordinates from your fit, I'm going to build you a storm king. And that's what it's going to be. If you want something that's completely dead. I'm working on an iron man bike for somebody right now. And that's a totally different bike than anything we offer. [00:21:15] So then that's much more of a personal process of what are you looking for and how do you want it to be, rather than I know what I want the storm king to be, and I'm going to make a storm king that fits you. Gotcha.  [00:21:25] Craig Dalton: Let's talk about that. Beautiful storm king. You brought to Utah, it had a lot of different finishes on it. [00:21:31] It did. Really and is that is for, we didn't have paint on it as well. It had cerakote. Okay. So let's go through, I think it's amazing that the number of options you offer and certainly the execution on that bike I'll post a picture of it because it was beautiful. Everybody needs to look at it, but let's talk about the different options for finish on a titanium frame. [00:21:50] David Rosen (Sage): We have four different options. We let's see, let's start with the standard finish that you see on most of the bikes on the website is our brushed finish. It's a raw titanium. It's very silvery looking. It's shiny. It's great for just durability. If you scratch it, you can take a Scotch-Brite pad and little shoeshine motion, then you can buff it out. [00:22:12] It's a great it's a great finish and it's just the classic titanium finish. That's finished. Number one, finish number two is bead blast where we basically put the frame in a giant cabinet, if you will, a sealed cabinet and we shoot it with a what's called media and media can be anything from glass beads to Walnut shells. [00:22:33] It just depends on what. And it, it impacts the frame and it changes the appearance and the finish and the texture of the frame itself. It doesn't damage the frame in any way, but it changes the finish. So a bead blast is usually a it's just, it has a different look to it. It's more of a dull look to it from there. [00:22:53] We then start getting into colors and that's where we've really exploded this year for the options and the custom work that we've been doing. If you look through our social media feed and as well as our custom page, we have a custom bike page where every custom bike gets a photo shoot and we do all that sort of stuff. [00:23:08] You can see the differences, but we've been doing a lot more with cerakote and with anodize for the frames anodize is if you seen the Chris king parts, they're blue they're purple. They're good. That's all anodized aluminum kind of thing. It's dipped in a bath. That's electrified. It comes out at a certain voltage. [00:23:26] It gives you a color.  [00:23:27] Craig Dalton: I think it's interesting David to drill into. I've seen some super intricate anodized look. Unlike the Chris king headset, which is, orange or red or whatever they do, you seem to have a technique in which you've got the titanium frame, which is maybe the, the brush titanium or whatever, and then small areas that are animated. [00:23:45] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah it's just a matter of the artwork that we do every custom frame that we do short of it just being, I just want logos done, but if there's artwork involved I have a graphic artist on staff. It has been in the art world for quite some time. He's a cycling buddy of mine. We've known each other for years, but he's an artist, a true artist kind of thing. [00:24:06] Like he does art shows and all that sort of good stuff. And he designs all the bikes. So every single bike is never repeated. Each individual bike is a rolling piece of art. If you want the bike, you're seeing the show bike that we have on the website, I can do something similar, but it'll never be that again. [00:24:23] It'll be it'll be sister bike. It won't be an identical twin kind of thing. But yeah we get a little crazy with the finishes that we do. And then we mix all of that in with Sarah code, which is we've. We been using paint, wet paint for quite some time. And paint's awesome. It, you can color match with it and we still do wet paint. [00:24:41] If a customer requests it, you can color match very specifically. To a specific item. If you have it, you can mix colors and that sort of thing. What we found with paint though, and with gravel bikes in particular, is it's not as durable as we would like. And the problem is that if you get a rock strike on your titanium, gravel bike with paint it is possible. [00:25:02] It could chip. And so that's not really an ideal situation. So we switched to cerakote, which is a ceramic coat. That's cured onto the frame and it's actually used on guns tanks, rocket parts, jet fighters. As whenever you see the paint that's on these vehicles and these, munitions, if you will that's cerakote and it's super resistant to heat damage from any sort of debris flying out of it. [00:25:29] I Heck if somebody can shoot a gun at a tank and the, the tanks spine cause of the Seroquel. That sort of thing. I'm pretty confident the bike is going to be okay from a rock strike. And and yeah, our painter is able to actually mix all of these all of these four different finishes together. [00:25:44] And we're able to make these incredible bikes of just total variety of just really just pushing them. The  [00:25:51] Craig Dalton: cerakote was the one I was least familiar with. And a couple of builders were using it out there in Utah at the end of the builder Roundup. How has it actually applied? Is it applied like a paint or a  [00:26:02] David Rosen (Sage): no it's more of a paint it's sprayed on. [00:26:05] So there is a masking process that goes on. The masking actually takes the most time for the bike itself for the actual paint work to be done. And basically once the bike is massed up, you pretty much split. As, you peel off the layers and as you spray it and that sort of thing. And then when all is said and done, you cure the bike it goes into an oven to cures and it can be sprayed in the morning, cured by lunch and ship out in the same day in the afternoon. [00:26:30] And it's done. Like you don't have to worry like the paints, soft, or it needs to still time just it's ready to ship. So it's pretty crazy. And it's super. And is  [00:26:39] Craig Dalton: it something that you can apply, in almost any design on the bike to any part of the bike,  [00:26:44] David Rosen (Sage): just about any design? It's really the limitation of the, of my artist and of the painter and being able to mask it. [00:26:51] Sometimes there are issues with tube shapes and that you're people thinking, people think of art and they think in a two dimensional sense as a flat canvas and the arts applied to it. But the reality is bicycles are three-dimensional rounded. There is no hard point to start and stop here and there. [00:27:10] So sometimes you have to make decisions and you have to make choices about how the artwork is going to lay on the frame itself. Because sometimes it may not work even the best intentions. It's eh, just not going to look right. And the tubes aren't exactly large like a canvas. So you have to think those things. [00:27:28] Yeah. I think that's  [00:27:29] Craig Dalton: The value in having. Artists be also a cyclist. They understand how the bike is constructed and the tube shapes and everything and also how it plays out, how it's going to look visually from within a Peloton to out there on the gravel road.  [00:27:42] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah, absolutely. [00:27:43] No he's fantastic about making the bike stand out for sure. And this particular show bike is I think it's, I think it's one of my favorites, period. There are some others that we've done that are pretty amazing as well. It would be hard honestly, to stack them all up next to each other and pick one. [00:27:59] So it's a rough thing. So I'll take this one for right now and go. This is my favorite for the time being nice. Are  [00:28:05] Craig Dalton: there other trends in the gravel market that you're looking forward to exploring?  [00:28:09] David Rosen (Sage): I think I'm interested to see where suspension goes. It's I'm not saying I'm fully. [00:28:17] Committed to suspension and I think it should be on all bikes. I think it's certain applications in certain arenas and I don't necessarily think it should be a mountain bike fork. For example, that's just slimmed down. I think it needs to be its own technology because I think gravel is different. And I think there needs to be different engineering behind the design of the fork itself. [00:28:40] It needs to be lighter. It does need to be sexier. And it needs to, it's minimal travel. We don't need, you don't even need a hundred millimeters. Yeah. Travel for a gravel bike. It's, at some point again, I always go back to the original. My Barlow of you have to ride, you could ride from your house on the pavement to the gravel ride back to the pavement, ride back home. [00:29:00] So the bikes should be able to handle both. Other than that, if it's just only good off road, then it's really a drop bar mountain bike at that point. I'm interested to see where that goes. I think dropper posts will continue to I think that's more of an immediate trend that's coming. [00:29:16] I just, I see the value of it and, I saw it a grow DEO. There were guys that were just bombing down those descents baby head rocks, and just blasting down them on 50 mil tires and the dropper posts because they got the saddle out of the way. And it. It, it does add to the capability of the bike. [00:29:32] And then when we got out on the road, they pop the seat back up and everything was fine. Yeah.  [00:29:36] Craig Dalton: That was my technique. I knew I was going to get gapped off on all the climbs, but I had a hope, I had a hope if I rode my bike card with that dropper post down on the dissents, but I might just bridge back up to the group that just dropped me. [00:29:47] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah, exactly. No, it  [00:29:49] Craig Dalton: works great. I too. And the listener well knows. I'm fascinated by the idea of suspension in ground. All your points are spot on. It's going to have to be this delicate balance, to not take away the capabilities. We're not trying to build mountain bikes here. They still need to be bikes that can get fast on the road, but to each their own in terms of gravel, right? [00:30:09] We've got listeners all over the world whose experiences are dramatically different. And what I hope is that it just becomes this type of thing, where you look at someone who has a more aggressively set up gravel bike. You just understand that's probably what they have in their backyard and someone who's, riding the Barlow with 30 twos on it, that could be totally capable. [00:30:30] It could be overkill for the types of gravel roads they ride, but to each  [00:30:34] David Rosen (Sage): their own. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's, it's we see the same sort of thing with mountain bikes. There's this trend towards not a trend. It's here. I wouldn't call it a trend and I'm a big fan of it. [00:30:45] Big hit long travel bikes with slack, that angles that basically five years ago were downhill bikes. And now they're single crown and Duro bikes. And guys are, we're doing, I'm doing crazy jumps on the weekends and all that sort of stuff, but does the person in Florida, for example or Texas where it's pancake flat for the most part and I'm sure there are technical steep places where you need it. [00:31:07] So I apologize. Not, I'm not trying to characterize the entire state that way, but generally speaking Florida is pretty flat. So do you need a long travel, slacked out bike? Probably not thing. And to your point about the gravel, there's places where that, a 32 mil tire is going to be perfect there, and there's other places where a 50 mil tire and it's their backyard. [00:31:28] So yeah, I would totally agree with that.  [00:31:30] Craig Dalton: You'll start to get that feedback next season in 2022 for people running time. Front suspension, forks on their bikes. And it would be curious to see, much like your professional athlete gave the feedback that ultimately led to the storm king. We may see that feedback coming back saying having a little bit of suspension on the front simply makes the bike faster. [00:31:52] And if it's faster, people are going to go for it from a race perspective.  [00:31:56] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah, no, I would agree. At some level it is 1990 for mountain bikes. But at the same time, it's the gravel bikes of today are far more capable than those. What were mountain bikes back then? And it's pretty impressive with how the bike is evolved. [00:32:10] Yeah, I totally  [00:32:11] Craig Dalton: agree with you. I had that same feeling back in the early nineties around mountain biking that every year, every month it seemed like a new idea was being put forward and people were testing and learning and it took, it was this great and super enjoyable journey. If you were involved in it to watch it out. [00:32:28] David Rosen (Sage): Yeah, no, absolutely. It was a lot of fun. And it's, I think gravel is going through the same sort of, evolution  [00:32:34] Craig Dalton: actually. We're all here. We're all listening. We're all involved the communities as all eyes on the innovation. Super exciting time. I appreciate you joining me today, Dave, and giving us a little more of an overview, a deep dive into Sage titanium. [00:32:48] I loved the work that you showed in Utah, and I wish you all the. [00:32:52] David Rosen (Sage): Thanks. I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.  [00:32:55] Craig Dalton: Cheers.  [00:32:56] Big, thanks today for joining us this week, I have to say, I really do love that storm king. It takes a lot of boxes for me, the finished work was beautiful. The clearances are right up my alley, and I think it would be a hell of a lot of fun to ride that bike. Also another big, thanks to ENVE for sponsoring the podcast this week. And for sponsoring this entire series, it's really been a pleasure. Getting introduced to a lot of their partners around the world, looking through their componentry and touring their factory. I've mentioned it on earlier podcasts, but I was very impressed with the amount of testing they do. In-house and just the fabrication process in general, in Ogden, Utah, the attention to detail.  [00:33:40] The passion of the employee base. And everything about ENVE's work there in the United States just really makes me happy. So be sure to check them out.  [00:33:49] When you support our podcast partners, you're supporting the podcast itself.  [00:33:53] I wouldn't be able to continue doing what I'm doing without their support.  [00:33:57] And I wouldn't do this without your support. The gravel community has been super embracing of what I've been doing.  [00:34:03] And I've loved getting to know some of you in in-person events. But more broadly through the ridership community. If you're not already a member of this free community, just visit www.theridership.com. We'd love to have you. And if you're interested in supporting the podcast further, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride.  [00:34:24] There's any number of ways in which you can support what I'm doing here. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

The Chad Prather Show
Ep 482 | GOTCHA! Police Bodycam Catches Lawmaker in a Lie | Guest: Brad Thor

The Chad Prather Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 21, 2021 45:58


Brad Thor is back to discuss his latest book, “Black Ice.” This American super spy is ready to save the world again. The St. Paul Police Department releases bodycam footage after Minnesota state Rep. John Thompson accuses a police officer of racial profiling, aka "driving while black." The police department is seeking an apology from the state representative. A transgender couple went viral after the trans woman tries to breastfeed a baby. How can we save that baby? The BLOCK19 is here, and social media has lost its mind. Today's Sponsors Visit https://CowboyWines.com and get three bottles of wine for 50% off while supplies last. Visit BrickhouseChad.com and use the offer code CHAD. Visit https://PrepareWithChad.com to save $70 off the 4-Week-Food Kit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices