Podcast appearances and mentions of Brandon Sanderson

Peter Orullian and Brandon Sanderson find out who their spiritual 80's bands are.  Alongside their musically-challenged moderator, they confront a quiz that will force them to truly consider their rock feelings. See who these two authors could have been on this episode of Intentionally Blank! Also, check out the new book Songs of the Dead, available now!Get Your Copy of Songs of the Dead: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Songs-of-the-Dead/Brandon-Sanderson/The-Strata-Wars/9781668068144Take the quiz yourself: https://us.idyllic.app/quiz/f204zmndzk-which-80s-band-do-you-belong-inWant to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Brooke and Tyler look at three of the coolest women in the Cosmere to understand the plot elements surrounding Venli, Navani, and Jasnah. Only by studying the mysteries of the past can we truly learn about what is to come in the second half of the Stormlight Archive. #AllSpoilers Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

Join host Adrian M. Gibson as he chats with author Peter Orullian about his new novel Songs of the Dead, collaborating on the book with Brandon Sanderson, rock/metal culture, multi-layered worldbuilding, musical magic, the living vs. the dead, creative fluidity, video games and working at Microsoft/Xbox, Unbroken and Kickstarter success, the triumphs of community, Christmas movies, antagonists and more.NOTE: This is part one of a two-part chat with Peter. Stayed tuned next week for his writing masterclass on Incorporating Music into SFF.

The first official returning guest of the 10th year of this podcast, Sadie Waycaster aka SadiebyDesign returns almost 9 years later as we get to catch up and talk about some past fandoms, new fandoms, and Cosplay! Sadie was one of my first guests back in 2016 and was a huge supporter of the podcast in its infancy. Ever since then, it has been a pleasure to know Sadie and follow her life and work and have someone I can call a friend. I knew I wanted her to return and she said yes, so here we are. We get to catch up first since it has been awhile since we talked, and then we cover a number of new fandoms that Sadie's into. These fandoms include (but are not limited to) Infinity Nikki, Witch Hat Atelier, Chinese dramas, Brandon Sanderson, The Knight and The Moth, Tusk Love, Dungeon Crawler Carl, and Project Hail Mary. Sadie also talks about the past several years with her cosplay work, her departure from Instagram and re-emergence on TikTok, and her plans to return to her website and blog/vlog. You can find Sadie at: https://www.facebook.com/sadiebydesign https://www.tiktok.com/@sadiebydesign https://www.sadiebydesign.com/ You can listen to Sadie's previous episodes here: https://talesfromthefandom.libsyn.com/episode-12-sadie-geerligs https://talesfromthefandom.libsyn.com/beauty-and-the-beast-review-with-sadie-geerligs https://talesfromthefandom.libsyn.com/2017-retrospective-with-sadie-geerligs-of-sadie-by-design

Peter Orullian joins Brandon Sanderson to talk about all things music and necromancy. Their new book, Songs of the Dead, is just around the corner. The two old friends chat about everything this week on Intentionally Blank!Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

In this episode Shawn Q and Jack cover Chapters 44 & 45 of Rhythm of War by Brandon Sanderson. Kaladin carries Teft and Eshonai makes first contact.Recording and Editing by Shawn QInfo Dump Production by Buzzkill JoeProduced By; The Heroes of Hacathra: Jack, Jay, Phil, Shawn, and Mike and the wonderful Patreon Team.Theme Song by: Jack Forrest ProductionsAdditional Music by: Jason Morin Logo by Trina Macintoshif you'd like to support the show consider visiting our Patreon Page https://www.patreon.com/Heroesofor visit us on twitter https://twitter.com/Heroesof1 or on Instagram https://instagram.com/thestormpod  or email us at http://heroesofhacathra@gmail.comSupport the show

This week on the podcast, Patrick and Tracy welcome Peter Orullian, author of SONGS OF THE DEAD. About SONGS OF THE DEAD: When Jack Solomon, a struggling musician who works in London's West End, is killed, he awakens to a new reality in which light and music are used to create magic and where living eras of the past sprawl beneath modern London, layer upon layer, all the way back to recorded history. Jack also soon discovers that many of those who reside in the stratums of London's past have grown angry with the present world, and that their anger is being channeled by a powerful society of light-and-music-based magic wielders who can cross the realms between life and death, between the present and the past. A past where the dead are sowing revolution against the living, and all of history is at stake. About Peter Orullian: Peter Orullian is an American fantasy author, composer, and performer. As a musician, he has toured internationally—fronting various rock and metal bands—written and released multiple albums, and recently founded his own symphonic rock group, Symphony North, which focuses on building trans-media properties to combine music and narrative. The first of these, entitled The Bell Ringer, was recently released as a full concept album, and will embark on a US tour in holiday of 2026. The novelization of The Bell Ringer will release in tandem with the tour. As an author, Orullian has also novelized chart-topping concept albums for Grammy Award–winning metal giant Dream Theater. In 2012, he was shortlisted for the David Gemmell Morningstar Award. He has written numerous short stories as well as several other novels, including The Vault of Heaven, all of which use music as a driving force for worldbuilding and magical systems. Since 2018, he has been collaborating with Brandon Sanderson on developing and writing The Strata Wars series. This week's picks: Peter #1: Sevendust: One (Album) Peter #2: Summer of Night by Dan Simmons Peter #3: Symphony North albums Tracy: Daredevil Season 1 (2015 – Netflix/Disney+) Patrick: Black Clover (Crunchyroll) Links: Peter Orullian on Instagram Tracy Townsend on BluSky Patrick Hester on Instagram The Functional Nerds Patreon Page © 2026 Patrick Hester The post Episode 706-With Peter Orullian appeared first on The Functional Nerds.

In this episode of The Best Dam Podcast, Jill sits down with the multi-talented Holly Wittwer, the mastermind behind Events with Holly and the newly launched Home Educated Foundation. Together, they pull back the curtain on the invisible art of event planning and explore how a local need sprouted a rapidly growing national initiative to support homeschool families.The discussion dives deep into the high-stakes world of wedding and festival logistics—from managing over-the-top family emotions to handling wild day-of emergencies like car pile-ups, casino drama, and unexpected event crashers. Holly also breaks down the rapid growth of her non-profit foundation, sharing how she balances her strict Type-A personality, her thriving businesses, and homeschooling her three energetic young boys right here in Boulder City.DISCUSSIONThe Invisible Talent of Event Planning: A great event coordinator works completely behind the scenes so the client never notices a single problem. Holly reveals that she often acts as a day-of counselor or therapist to ground stressed-out brides and families so they can actually enjoy their big day.A Sudden Homeschool Pivot: After traveling to a massive multi-day homeschool convention in Arizona, Holly immediately realized she had the exact skill set needed to bring a similar, high-quality educational resource hub to Nevada families.Launching the Home Educated Foundation: Now in its third year, the convention has morphed into a full-scale non-profit foundation. The initiative features a digital and physical magazine with youth-authored articles, a nationwide podcast, and financial scholarships to help underprivileged families purchase curriculum.Local Micro-Schools and Collaboration: Holly emphasizes that homeschooling isn't for everyone, but options are exploding locally. She collaborates with local spaces like Grace Christian Church and Burning Bush to offer thriving drop-off classes, including chess and photography clubs.The Entrepreneurial Balancing Act: Transitioning to working for herself has unlocked immense creative freedom, allowing Holly to wake up with dozens of new ideas every night. She maintains healthy personal boundaries by strictly homeschooling her kids in the morning and tackling work in the afternoon.Handling Extreme Day-of Emergencies: From a 10-car freeway pile-up delaying every vendor by two hours to wild off-site casino drama during her first convention, Holly keeps a cool head by reminding her team: "Unless the building is on fire, it's not an emergency."Harnessing Teen Energy: Holly loves hiring local middle and high school students to assist with event day logistics. Giving local youth a chance to rise to the occasion provides them with high wages, great experience, and solid recommendation letters.The"Dating Convention" Crasher: Holly shares a hilarious, memorable story from her first homeschool convention where a solo male attendee crashed the event, recorded families without permission, and tried giving Holly's husband dating advice before being escorted out by security.Leaning into Type-A Strengths: While Holly used to criticize herself for being a "control freak," she has fully embraced it. She points out that a hyper-organized, Type-A personality is exactly who you want managing the complex moving parts of a wedding or festival.An Event Planner's Secret Confession: In a surprising twist, Holly admits that she actually dislikes attending events that she isn't running. On a Friday night, she would much rather be snuggled on the couch with her kids and a good book.A Hyper-Active Nightstand: Holly is a self-proclaimed voracious reader who cycles through up to 10 books at once. Her current rotation ranges from business classics like Dave Ramsey's EntreLeadership to deep fictional fantasies like Brandon Sanderson's The Stormlight Archive, and even reading The Iliad and The Odyssey with her kids.The Unbeatable Value of the Chamber: Holly Credits the Boulder City Chamber of Commerce as an instrumental force in building her business. She fiercely defends the value of a Chamber membership online, viewing it as essential marketing, networking, and a vital community resource.LEARN MOREEvents with Holly: Keep up with Holly's local Boulder City wedding and festival coordination by connecting with local businesses like Village Floral House and Twist and Shout DJ. https://eventswithholly.com.The Home Educated Foundation: Look up the foundation's official launch materials online to find step-by-step guides on homeschool paperwork, daily family rhythms, and upcoming curriculum scholarship applications.Business Leadership Resources: Pick up a copy of EntreLeadership by Dave Ramsey to explore the delegation and team-training philosophies Holly utilizes to scale her operations.Boulder City Chamber of Commerce: Head over to Chamber website or stop in to chat with Jill and her team to find out how local business owners can utilize Chamber resources to market their next big community initiative. https://www.bouldercitychamber.com.KEYWORDSHolly Wittwer, Events with Holly, Event Planning, Youth Entrepreneurship, Home Educated Foundation, The Best Dam Podcast, Boulder City Chamber of Commerce#HollyWittwer #EventswithHolly #EventPlanning #YouthEntrepreneurship #HomeEducatedFoundation #TheBestDamPodcast #BoulderCity

Join Evan and Chad for the weekly Monday Morning Minute! An episode recapping the many nerdy things our hosts have delved into. Listen ad-free on Patreon Join the BRK Discord Buy Evan's book Anji Kills a King Preorder Evan's Book Anji In Shadow New Release Radar: Kingdom of Waves by Melissa de la Cruz Songs of the Dead by Brandon Sanderson and Peter Orullian Books Mentioned: The Witcher Series - Andrzej Sapkowski Ravens Call Duology - Anthony Ryan 16 Ways to Defend a Walled City - KJ Parker Legend - David Gemmell Riyria Revelations/Chronicles - Michael J. Sullivan Legends of the First Empire - Michael J. Sullivan Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser - Fritz Leiber The Last Smile in Sunder City - Luke Arnold The Realm of the Elderlings - Robin Hobb Sorcery - Terry Pratchett Outlander - Diana Gabaldon ACOTAR - Sarah J. Maas Gods and Monsters - Amber Nicole Zodiac Academy - Caroline Peckham and Susanne Valenti Movies Mentioned: The Room The Disaster Artist Mortal Kombat (1995) Shows mentioned: Orphan Black Black Sails Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

En este episodio nos adentramos en "Carl el Mazmorrero", el primer libro de la exitosa saga de Matt Dinniman, una mezcla explosiva de fantasía, ciencia ficción, videojuegos y humor negro que ha revolucionado el género LitRPG. Tras una invasión alienígena que destruye la civilización, Carl y la gata Princesa Dónut se ven obligados a participar en un sádico reality show intergaláctico ambientado en una gigantesca mazmorra llena de monstruos, trampas y desafíos imposibles. Lo que comienza como una premisa absurda pronto se transforma en una historia sorprendentemente inteligente, divertida y adictiva. Hablamos de sus personajes, del sistema de juego que estructura la novela, del humor irreverente de Dinniman y de los temas que se esconden bajo la superficie: la explotación mediática, el entretenimiento convertido en espectáculo y la resistencia frente a sistemas deshumanizadores. Si te gustan autores como Brandon Sanderson, las historias de supervivencia, los videojuegos RPG o simplemente buscas una lectura capaz de hacerte reír a carcajadas mientras te mantiene pegado a sus páginas, este episodio es para ti. Compra tus camisetas en https://www.pampling.com/ usando nuestro código para obtener regalos con tu compra y contribuir al podcast! Código: Puente4Podcast Redes Sociales Puente4Podcast: Discord: https://discord.gg/EZFntbKdUF Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/puente4podcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Puente4Podcast TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@puente4podcast? iVoox: https://www.ivoox.com/s_p2_1105139_1.html Patreon: https://Patreon.com/puente4podcast Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Puente4Podcast/

(00:00:00) Setting the Scene (00:00:41) Steam Deck Acquisition (00:14:01) The Witcher 3 Expansion (00:21:11) Xbox Showcase and Fable News (00:30:32) Halo Franchise Confusion (00:36:52) Spider-Man: Noir and Xbox Strategy (00:49:26) Other Gaming News and Projects (00:49:40) Mark Plier's "The Iron Lung" Release (00:51:29) Brandon Sanderson's New Sci-Fi Project (00:52:59) Audio Book Listening Woes To start this week's episode, the guys kick things off with an engaging discussion about the availability of the Steam Deck, the highly anticipated handheld gaming device developed by Valve. They delve into the specifics of its new price tag, which has recently been adjusted, making it more accessible to a wider audience of gamers. This conversation naturally flows into an exciting exploration of the newly announced expansion for The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, titled Songs of the Past. The hosts share their thoughts on what this expansion may entail, speculating on new quests, characters, and the potential for revisiting beloved locations within the expansive game world. Following this, the episode transitions into an analysis of what fans can expect from the upcoming Xbox Showcase, which is set to take place this weekend. The hosts discuss the anticipation surrounding this event, highlighting rumored game reveals, potential surprises, and how it may shape the future of Xbox gaming. They consider the impact of major titles that could be showcased and how they might influence the gaming landscape. Finally, the conversation shifts to the recent announcement regarding yet another delay for the highly anticipated relaunch of Fable. The hosts express their thoughts on the implications of this delay, discussing the reasons behind it and how it affects the expectations of fans who have been eagerly waiting for the return of this beloved franchise. They reflect on the challenges faced by developers in the current gaming environment and how these delays can ultimately lead to a more polished final product. Each of these topics is explored in depth, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the current state of gaming and what lies ahead.Official Website: https://www.comesnaturallypodcast.comOfficial Merchandise: https://shop.spreadshirt.com/comes-naturally-podcast/iTunes: http://tinyurl.com/kqkgackFacebook: http://tinyurl.com/myovgm8Tumblr: http://tinyurl.com/m7a6mg9Twitter: @ComesNaturalPodYouTube: http://tiny.cc/5snxpy

Fantasy awards have given us some incredible winners over the years.But what about the books that didn't win?In this episode of Fantasy for the Ages, we're counting down the 30 greatest fantasy novels ever nominated for major fantasy awards that never actually took home the trophy. These are the bridesmaids of fantasy literature—the books that earned Hugo, Nebula, World Fantasy, or British Fantasy Award nominations, captured the hearts of readers, sold millions of copies, and became genre classics… yet somehow never heard their name called on awards night.From epic fantasy giants and beloved dragon adventures to urban fantasy masterpieces and modern classics, this list is packed with books that many readers would argue deserved a win.Which fantasy masterpiece was the biggest awards snub of them all?Let's find out.

In this episode Shawn Q and Jack cover the second set of Interludes in Rhythm of War by Brandon Sanderson. Vyre has a plan for Kaladin, Lift plans to catch a chicken and Taravangian changes his plans.Recording and Editing by Shawn QInfo Dump Production by Buzzkill JoeProduced By; The Heroes of Hacathra: Jack, Jay, Phil, Shawn, and Mike and the wonderful Patreon Team.Theme Song by: Jack Forrest ProductionsAdditional Music by: Jason Morin Logo by Trina Macintoshif you'd like to support the show consider visiting our Patreon Page https://www.patreon.com/Heroesofor visit us on twitter https://twitter.com/Heroesof1 or on Instagram https://instagram.com/thestormpod  or email us at http://heroesofhacathra@gmail.comSupport the show

Brooke and Tyler call in @LiteraryTrope to help push past the brink of sanity with the wildest theories in the Cosmere. Is Nahadon a soup? Are mushrooms everywhere? Is Mare alive? We'll explain and you be the judge. #AllSpoilers Follow LiteraryTrope on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/literarytrope/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@literarytrope Substack: https://literarytrope.substack.com/ Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

En el programa de hoy repasamos algunas de las noticias y temas más interesantes del mundo de la cultura pop, la fantasía y la literatura. Comenzamos analizando los Crunchyroll Anime Awards, comentando los ganadores más destacados, las sorpresas de la gala y el debate sobre cuál merece realmente el título de Mejor Anime del Año. Después viajamos al universo de Mistborn (Nacidos de la Bruma) para hablar del relato que Brandon Sanderson leyó durante el MCM Comic Con, explorando qué puede significar para el futuro del Cosmere y las conexiones que podrían entusiasmar a los seguidores de la saga. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C... ✍️ Para cerrar, dedicamos una sección especial a Joël Dicker, uno de los autores más populares del thriller contemporáneo. Repasamos su trayectoria, sus novelas más conocidas y las razones de su enorme éxito internacional. ¿Estás de acuerdo con los ganadores de los Anime Awards? ¿Qué opinas de las novedades de Mistborn? ¿Cuál es tu novela favorita de Joël Dicker? Déjanos tu opinión en los comentarios. Suscríbete para más contenido sobre anime, fantasía, ciencia ficción, literatura y cultura geek. Compra tus camisetas en https://www.pampling.com/ usando nuestro código para obtener regalos con tu compra y contribuir al podcast! Código: Puente4Podcast Redes Sociales Puente4Podcast: Discord: https://discord.gg/EZFntbKdUF Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/puente4podcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Puente4Podcast TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@puente4podcast? iVoox: https://www.ivoox.com/s_p2_1105139_1.html Patreon: https://Patreon.com/puente4podcast Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Puente4Podcast/

This week the Buddies discuss amazing things they've seen in Nature, dying a lot in video games, how to handle a bully, and what it means to be loyal to a barber. Share with a friend! Contact us: Facebook Instagram Email Youtube Recommendations: Subnautica Below Zero (video game), Flock Around (video game), The Lost Metal (book by Brandon Sanderson), Dimension 20: Cloudward Ho! (Dropout show)

A New LOTR Open-World Game, Brandon Sanderson's Skyward Adaptation, New Agatha Christie Series, New Comic Book Day! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Brandon Sanderson and Emily Sanderson are back again this week to put there memory on the test! With Donald asking the toughest questions, will they be able to survive the not so newlywed game?Cat Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H25ve3qts4Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com 

Wherein we wander through a maze of, “well-done.”Send a message in a bottle: gwritersanon@gmail.com  Sail to our Facebook page (Ghost Writers, Anonymous).  

Brooke and Tyler use illumination to look into the future of the Cosmere to understand the gamebreaking potential of Renarin Kholin. We try to comprehend his strange nature as an Enlightened Truthwatcher and whether his powers are more connected to Sja-anat or Odium. #AllSpoilers Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

If you're an indie writer paying attention to what's happening in publishing right now — this week was a tell. Three stories landed inside seven days. Each one pointed at the same answer.Episode 5 of The Difficulty — the first publishing-news episode in the new "How" lane. This week:— Audible's ACX royalty model is being discontinued. Authors must enroll in the new pooled, consumption-based model by year-end. Brandon Sanderson called this out back in 2024; Dave Chesson at Kindlepreneur is openly skeptical. Same playbook Spotify ran for music and KU ran for ebooks. Now it's audiobooks.— Publishing.com hit with a $1.5M FTC settlement — alleged misleading income claims and undisclosed incentivized testimonials. The publishing industry is being told publicly that some of the loudest "publish-your-book-and-get-rich" programs were misleading. Personal aside: I came close to laying out $6K to one of these a few years back. I'm glad I didn't.— Inkers Con runs May 30 – June 12 ($250, fully online). Working authors learning from each other in real time. Worth knowing about even if you don't go.The throughline: in a week where platforms got less predictable AND shady programs got FTC'd, the answer was the same answer indie writers have been circling for a decade. Direct audience. Real community. Owned email list. Less platform dependency.I share what I'm doing about it in real time — including how the Goodreads giveaway for Iris Blackwood pulled nearly 3,000 entrants, and the moment I almost didn't release Iris #1 as an ebook (and what changed my mind).—GO DEEPERFriday's Working Publisher Substack post extends this episode with sources and analysis:→ chadprevost.substack.com — search "The Free Lunch Is Ending"—CHAPTERSThree stories, same answerAudible's royalty pivotPublishing.com's FTC settlementThe $6K I almost spentInkers Con (May 30 – June 12)The throughline — direct audienceIris Blackwood anecdote — the ebook decisionClosing—FREE — THE DIFFICULTY FIELD GUIDEEight difficulties every working writer faces, and what to ask when each one shows up.→ crossroadspublishing.group/assets/pdfs/The_Difficulty_Field_Guide.pdf—WHERE TO FIND MESubstack — The Working Publisher (Fridays) + new essays Wednesdays + weekend essay readings Saturdays→ chadprevost.substack.comThe Difficulty — Monday (the why), Thursday (the how), Saturday (essay readings) — wherever you listen to podcasts→ chadprevost.com/the-difficultyCrossroads Publishing Group — publishing services, IF/THEN Books, Iris Blackwood mystery series→ crossroadspublishing.groupInkers Con:→ inkerscon.com/2026-digital-conference—The difficulty in life is the choice. Get full access to The Descent at chadprevost.substack.com/subscribe

The Blasters & Blades PodcastToday we're tackling the classic “meat and potatoes” topic for fantasy fans, the cost of magic. But we went past the just “mana points” and dove into the physical, emotional, and societal toll of wielding power. As readers, we know that power is never free. Whether it's the physical toll of “the burn,” the loss of memories, or the literal sacrifice of life force, the best magic systems are defined by their limits. When magic enters a world, it changes the economy, the politics, and the people. That requires users to also consider the “Check and Balance” systems of speculative fiction. We discuss “Hard” vs. “Soft” magic costs, the psychological burden of wielding god-like power, and how a well-defined price tag prevents magic from becoming a narrative "easy button." It's a deep dive into the mechanics of the miraculous. Join our panel as we dissect how authors like Brandon Sanderson, and Ursula K. Le Guin use the “cost” of magic to create tension, drive character growth, and keep the stakes sky-high. If a wizard can do anything, why doesn't he? We're finding out. This was a fun interview, so go check it out!Co-Hosts:JR Handley (Grunt)Jana S Brown (Chief Shenanigator)We work for free, so if you wanna throw a few pennies our way there is a linked Buy Me A Coffee site where you can do so. Just mention the podcast in the comments when you donate, and I'll keep the sacred bean water boiling!Support the Show: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/AuthorJRHandleyOur LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/blastersandbladespodcastToday's SponsorTentacles and Tides (ExtraOrdinary Beasts Book 4): https://books2read.com/tentacles-and-tidesCoffee Brand Coffee Affiliate Support the Show: https://coffeebrandcoffee.com/?ref=y4GWASiVorJZDb10% Discount Code: PodcastGruntsFollow Jana S Brown on social mediaJana's Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jana-S.-Brown/author/B015VJV7JWJana's Website: www.opalkingdompress.comJana's LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/opalkingdompressFollow John M Olsen on social mediaJohn's Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/author/johnmolsen John's Website: https://johnmolsen.blogspot.com/ John's Twitter: https://twitter.com/john_m_olsen John's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JohnsWritingStuffFollow JR Handley on social mediaJR's Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/J.-R.-Handley/author/B01N0SEX3AJR's Website: https://jrhandley.com/JR's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sgt.jr.handley JR's Substack: https://jrhandley.substack.com/Follow Kevin Pettway on social mediaKevin's Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Kevin-Pettway/author/B07YX5G59XKevin's Website: https://kevinpettway.com/Kevin's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kevinpettwayauthor/Follow Melissa McShane on social mediaMelissa's Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Melissa-McShane/author/B00TON8E1QMelissa's Website: www.melissamcshanewrites.comMelissa's Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/mcshaneminionsFollow Teri Kay Jobe on social mediaTeri's Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Teri-Kay-Jobe/author/B0DG3TPL66Teri's Website: https://terikjobe.com/Teri's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/terikjobe2013#scifishenanigans #scifishenaniganspodcast #bbp #blastersandblades #blastersandbladespodcast #podcast #scifipodcast #fantasypodcast #scifi #fantasy #books #rpg #comics #fandom #literature #comedy #veteran #army #armyranger #ranger #scififan #redshirts #scifiworld #sciencefiction #scifidaily #scificoncept #podcastersofinstagram #scificons #podcastlife #podcastsofinstagram #scifibooks #awardwinningscifi #newepisode #podcastersofinstagram #podcastaddict #podcast #scifigeek #scifibook #sfv #scifivisionaries #firesidechat #chat #panel #fireside #religionquestion #coffee #tea #coffeeortea #CoffeeBrandCoffee #JRHandley #NickGarber #MadamStabby #JanaSBrown #JenaRey #OpalKingdomPress #JohnMOlsen #KevinPettway #MelissaMcShane #WarMistress #WarHamster #Warmaster #TeriKJobe #TheCostOfMagic

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells dive into Rian Johnson's third film in the Knives Out series, Wake Up Dead Man. They also spend time on another mysterious crime, the infamous Kit Kat heist.Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Brooke and Tyler sit down for a cozy chat with Jess, host of Fantasy Fan Reads and instagram phenom @thelostbooksofjess. We discuss our collective love of fantasy, what it's like to join the Cosmere community, and what theories a new reader has to offer. #AlmostAllSpoilers Jess has only read some of Stormlight and Mistborn Era 1 with a few other one-off Sanderson novels. This entire conversation is safe for followers of Jess to enjoy. Follow Jess on Instagram Follow Fantasy Fan Reads Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells review one of the best films from 2025,  and definitely don't get distracted reviewing delicious garbage from 2024.Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Welcome to our first Nonsense episode! We will be releasing one of these every other episode for those that love to hear our thoughts on whatever topic. This week: the MILFs discuss Brandon Sanderson's cosmere, Tamsyn Muir's genius, how they need to get medicated, and Maggie gets a lesson on furry romances.Leave us a review! Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @apodcastofsmutanddragonsMaggie: @themargaretlibraryJillian: @jillian.reads.smut (instagram)@jilliankiechlinart (tiktok)Business inquiries and/or say hi: apodcastofsmutanddragons@gmail.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Buy the book at https://ko-fi.com/s/1626376343 The gods have abandoned the universe. Only the armies of heaven stand between freedom and annihilation — and something ancient is moving the pieces. In the vast celestial empire of Indra, three warrior companions carry the weight of an unravelling world. Tejas — a Gandharva Major whose faith has curdled into fury, haunted by a guilt he cannot name and a past he cannot outrun. Shreya — an Apsara Captain who has clawed every inch of her rank from a command structure determined to keep her beneath it, fighting a war on two fronts — against her enemies, and against her own army's prejudice. Balveer — a Yaksha warrior of devastating strength, carrying a grief decades old and a debt of vengeance that no amnesty has settled. Against them: the fanatical Danava hordes of the dark wizard Chatur Jagan, the genocidal ambitions of the Asura emperor Ahiravan, and something far older and far worse than either — a being that predates the gods themselves, who has been watching, waiting, and arranging every conflict like moves on a board only it can see. Dev/Asur — War of the Heavens is an epic military fantasy rooted in the mythology of ancient India — a world of divine weapons, celestial politics, demonic armies, and soldiers who are heartbreakingly, defiantly human. Perfect for fans of Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen — with its vast cosmology, brutal warfare, and soldiers who matter as much as gods. Readers of Conn Iggulden's battlefield intensity and Brandon Sanderson's intricate mythological world-building will find themselves immediately at home. This is Indian mythology reimagined as military epic. Gods who fail their people. Empires built on the bodies of the loyal. A conspiracy that spans dimensions. And three soldiers who refused to stop fighting even when the heavens went silent. The great game has begun. The gods are not coming. The stormfront is. Indian Noir is an Indian horror podcast featuring original Indian horror stories, Indian creepypastas, paranormal tales, supernatural fiction, dark fiction, and immersive audio storytelling. Each episode is written, narrated, and produced by Nikesh Murali, Commonwealth Short Story Prize-winning writer, bestselling horror author, and professional narrator.Buy my collection of horror novellas TALES OF HORROR at https://amzn.to/42XxAu5Donate via https://ko-fi.com/U7U03JREM to cover the web hosting and sfx costs.Follow me on Instagram instagram.com/indiannoirThis podcast is rated R 18+. It may contain classifiable elements such as violence, sex scenes and drug use that are high in impact. This podcast may also contain information which may be triggering to survivors of sexual assault, violence, drug abuse or mental health issues. Listener discretion is advised. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

It all comes down to this. What movie trilogies deserve to stay at the top of the ranking? Which have no place being remembered? Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells put their final thoughts on what movie trilogies are the greatest. All that and more on this exciting conclusion of the best movie trilogies!Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Brooke and Tyler reveal the secrets of the Cosmere's most mysterious sentient sword...and also some bald guy. Szeth's story in Wind and Truth is both heartbreaking and lore-intensive as he explores what it means to be a high ideal radiant. #AllSpoilers Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

Kickstarter has become a key part of the author business for those who want to make more money per book, connect directly with readers, and produce beautiful editions they're proud of. In this episode, I share excerpts from interviews with Oriana Leckert, Head of Publishing at Kickstarter, Russell Nohelty, and Sacha Black, alongside my own hard-won lessons from six campaigns that have now made over $140K combined. Whether you're considering your first campaign or looking to refine your process, we cover everything from overcoming your fears to rewards, fulfilment, shipping, marketing, and why I keep coming back for more. In the intro, Writing StoryBundle; Spotify Expands Audiobook Features and Printed Books; Draft2Digital Activation and Maintenance Fees; comment by Kevin McLaughlin; and Barnes & Noble Press change to Minimum Retail Price for Printed Books; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars. This show is supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Joanna Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir under J.F. Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors and hosts The Creative Penn Podcast. What Kickstarter is and why it works differently from a normal book launch The fears that held me back for almost a decade — and whether they were justified Starting small: Why you don't need sprayed edges and special hardbacks to run a successful campaign. Creative reward ideas beyond merch: digital rewards, experiential rewards, naming rights, and bundling your backlist Common mistakes that sink campaigns: overestimating your reach, getting shipping costs wrong, and not allowing enough time Fulfilment realities, printing timelines, and reinvesting profit into future stock Marketing your campaign: pre-launch signups, content marketing, email lists, social media scheduling, and Facebook/Meta ads My update for campaign #7, Bones of the Deep: what's changed, what I'm doing differently, and how AI tools are part of my process now Why I now love Kickstarter campaigns and how the spike income model fits a sustainable creative career You can find my Kickstarter campaign for Bones of the Deep here (until 5 May, 2026) and all my previous campaigns here. Introduction Jo: In this episode, I've included excerpts from my own previous solo show about Kickstarter, as well as excerpts from interviews with Oriana Leckert, the Head of Publishing at Kickstarter; Russell Nohelty, who has done lots of successful Kickstarter campaigns and teaches direct sales; and Sacha Black, who did a six-figure campaign last year. I've also added my updates to the end of the episode filling in any last thoughts. You can listen to the full episodes here: Kickstarter for Authors with Oriana Leckert The Mindset and Business of Selling Direct with Russell Nohelty Lessons Learned and Tips from Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign Two Different Approaches to Selling Direct with Sacha Black and Joanna Penn What is Kickstarter, and why use it instead of a normal book launch? Here's Oriana Leckert, Head of Publishing at Kickstarter — and the numbers she shares will be higher now, as the episode is from February 2025. Oriana: Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform. We are unique in the crowdfunding landscape for a few reasons. We are only for creative projects, so you can't use Kickstarter for medical bills, investment funding, or charitable donations. Every project has to create something new to share with the world. Jo: Have you got any numbers on how big the Kickstarter industry is now with publishing, or anything you can share around that? Oriana: Yeah, I would love to. First I'll tell you Kickstarter overall by the numbers. Since our inception, there have been 273,000 projects funded, eight and a half billion — with a “b” — billion dollars pledged, from more than 24 million backers. In publishing specifically, we've had 69,000 projects launched, 3.2 million unique backers, and over $380 million pledged to campaigns. I have lots of other stats, but a few things I'll share. The publishing category keeps growing The publishing category has grown year over year, every year since 2017, in terms of number of projects launched, number of projects successful, and the overall success rate. There has never been a dip since 2017. Another stat I really love about the publishing category: if you look at campaigns that have at least 25 backers, the overall success rate is 84%. I think that's really telling, because 25 backers is a little bit more than your mum, your best friend, the folks who are essentially obligated to support anything you do. So if you can get a little bit beyond that inner circle, your chances of succeeding on the platform are tremendously high. Backers are paying more — and waiting longer Another thing I wanted to call out — I just got some new numbers around this. The average backing amount per backer across the whole category has nearly doubled since 2020. We used to see an average backing around $40, and it's currently at $72 per backer. I think this is clearly around the trend of special and deluxe editions, but it's a great indication that backer behaviour on Kickstarter is just very different from your general book-buying public. People don't come here looking for 99-cent ebooks — the lowest bargain-basement prices. Folks are really willing to pay more because they understand this is a different kind of thing. It's not exactly a purchase. It really is supporting, bringing a strange and wonderful new thing into the world that wouldn't exist before. People are also much more forgiving about timelines. If you buy something from most online booksellers, you're expecting to have it in your hands within a couple of days. People wait months and sometimes years to get their Kickstarter rewards, and they don't mind if the creator is clear and transparent. You're also doing the work of demystifying the publishing process. Why does it take so long? Where are books printed? How long does it take them to ship via freight over the ocean? What do all these things really look like? So it's really interesting just figuring out what your backers want and will bear versus the general book-buying public out in the world. Kickstarter is not just for “desperate” authors anymore Oriana: People used to think Kickstarter was just for desperate folks who couldn't get a book deal through the traditional systems. The change has been so dramatic — people now understand that Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career, and that it can work for traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, all kinds of authors. Kickstarter is really about collapsing the boundaries between a writer and their readers, a publisher and their fan base, any creative person and their audience. And there are so many benefits to doing that. You get to really thrill your backers with new and exciting rewards. You get to turn what can be a standard book release into a moment. You get to build your brand, your profile, get press, test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience and what they want and how you can give it to them. It's been really marvellous seeing the great success that people can have on our platform and outside of it. Why do a Kickstarter campaign? Jo: Why Kickstarter and not a usual book launch? Benefits for backers If you back a Kickstarter, you get special editions, bonus content, interesting merchandise, bundles, digital specials, print specials, early access. All of them pretty much are really cool books from creators you either already love or those you've never heard of, because you just want to see their cool stuff. I've started buying books from people I have never heard of because I think their books are really cool. Once you start supporting campaigns on Kickstarter, the algorithm will recommend campaigns for you. It's essentially a different way of shopping for great books and other products, and it's just another part of my ecosystem for how I shop. It's a form of direct sales, so you also have a closer connection with the creator. You can message them, for example, and they get it — rather than buying through an online retailer or bookstore. Benefits for creators In terms of benefits for creators, you get to know people in a more personal way through the campaign, messaging with people and connecting more than you would when selling through a retailer, when you don't know who is buying your books. As an author, you can make more money more quickly and retain a higher percentage of the royalties, rather than wait months or years to get paid and have a large percentage taken out by everyone down the chain — publishers, platforms, distributors, and retailers. Brandon Sanderson's $41 million Kickstarter was clearly the pinnacle of what can be achieved, but many authors are happy making a few thousand for their book project upfront and use campaigns multiple times during the year. Kickstarter takes 5% for their fee, although of course you have to factor in the cost of production and marketing. But even then, I make more profit on my book sales through selling ebooks and audiobooks direct, and also printing with BookVault, than I do with KDP Print or IngramSpark print on demand. Higher average order and faster payment Another way you make more money is that the average order per customer is higher with Kickstarter than sales on the usual stores. The average order on my campaign was £37.24 — that's around $45 US — which is at least four times higher than I might have made selling Pilgrimage in the usual way on the major retailers. You get paid two weeks after the campaign finishes, so the money is in your bank account much faster than if you sell on retailers. In terms of cash flow, make sure you time your campaign so you get the money before you have to pay for printing, shipping, and other significant bills. Spike income vs monthly income There are many creators who now make Kickstarter the core of their business. It's a spike income model rather than a monthly income, which most indie authors are used to. The monthly income model is fantastic — I love getting money every month — but it also has the effect of making indie authors behave as if this is a normal job: work every month, get paid every month, put out another book so you get paid in another few months' time. With the Kickstarter model, you can get a bigger chunk of money in one go, so you could potentially move to a big launch and then take more time off before ramping up to the next launch months later. And amusingly, this sounds a bit more like traditional publishing. It's just that as an indie author, when you get that amount of money, it's much bigger. So that kind of launch tempo is an attractive prospect if you think about it: if I just get this big spike of money even once a year, that's really cool. And then of course you can sell it later. What are some of the fears that might stop you? Jo: I held back from doing a Kickstarter for years — almost a decade, in fact — where I backed campaigns and resisted doing a campaign for my own books. Here are some of my fears. Prepare to face your fears Jo: This entire experience thrust me out of my comfort zone and into a new way of creating, launching, and connecting with readers. Pilgrimage is my first memoir, my first special hardback with colour photos, and my first Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign. So I had a lot to learn. The book is very personal and I bare my soul about some dark times, so that was terrifying in itself, let alone trying a new product edition and publishing platform. On the evening I clicked the launch button — and yes, you have to actually click an actual launch button — my heart was hammering out of my chest. I have not felt that nervous since probably the first time publishing on Amazon. I was afraid of failure. I was afraid of being embarrassed if my campaign didn't fund. I wrote a book on marketing — how to market a book — so I would be mortified if I had not funded. In fact, I even changed my target from £5,000 to £1,000 the night before, as I was so terrified it wouldn't fund. I was afraid of getting something terribly wrong and ending up out of pocket through issues with printing and shipping. I was afraid of letting backers down by promising something I might not be able to deliver. I was afraid I had overcommitted myself to a whole load of work I might even resent doing. I am a one-person business, and although I work with freelancers, I still do pretty much everything myself. I am a control freak — you might have noticed. So yes, there was a lot of apprehension and fear. You don't have to go huge Another fear might be the fear of failure — that you'll put up a campaign and no one will buy from you. But one answer is just to do a modest campaign. You don't have to do special hardbacks or merchandise. As Russell says: Russell: Somehow all of the teaching that we have given over the last two years has been executed in a way that makes it seem like you have to do this enormous campaign with sprayed edges and big, beautiful hardcovers and interior illustrations and vellum and all of that stuff. And I want to say first: that is absolutely not true. You don't have to do any of those things. If you look at two of the last three campaigns I've done, all I was offering was paperback books and ebooks, and then audio commentary for one of the campaigns. You can do a Kickstarter — and I often will tell people, especially if they're not an already successful author — do a campaign that is small and easy to get data on before you do something big. The direct connection is actually the point Jo: One of my resistances to this was a sort of, “Oh, I'm actually going to have to do a more higher-touch thing.” But as you say, the reframe is: oh my goodness, this is amazing, because I actually do get to connect with people. Just yesterday I sent a signed book — Pilgrimage, which I did my last Kickstarter on — and this guy was like, “I bought it for myself. Can you sign it to me, because I'm going to do the Camino in a wheelchair?” And I was just so touched. Emailing him back, I just felt, oh my goodness, I'm having a connection with this person that if they'd just bought a book on Amazon, I would not have had. So now it's almost like — it's this totally different view of my business, which is that direct-first means a much more personal way. It really is like we're in that thousand true fans moment that we first talked about 20 years ago. Were my fears realised? Jo: Just to recap, I was afraid of failure and embarrassment if I failed to fund, of getting something wrong and being out of pocket, of letting backers down, and of overcommitting myself and resenting the workload. Really, the only thing that happened was overcommitment and a lot more work than I expected. But the time I put in was also likely the reason for the campaign's success and the reason that the other things didn't happen. I had to learn a new platform and a new approach to publishing and book marketing, so it was kind of a mini degree at the same time. So yes, I will do another Kickstarter — but only for special projects that are suited to this kind of intensive campaign. Tips for campaigns In this section, Oriana shares her thoughts on rewards, and then I'll go into some more of my tips. Thinking beyond merch Oriana: The rewards are really at the heart of the Kickstarter proposition and what makes this kind of fundraising so interesting and thrilling. Basically, your process is you're inviting people on a creative journey. You're saying, “I'm going to make this cool thing. I want your support, and in exchange, you're going to get stuff, you're going to get to be part of my process.” Obviously your main reward is going to be your book, or your series, or if you're a publishing company, your season — whatever it is. That's your main tier. Then you're going to build everything else out above and below that. A lot of people think rewards means swag and merch. Which is fine, but merch can add a lot to your production costs. It's causing you to learn how to produce all kinds of things that maybe you've never done before. So that's not the only way to do it. If you're going to do some merch, I think it's nice to come up with some custom items that feel really related to the work that you're doing. If you've got a romance novel with a pivotal scene on the beach, maybe you'd make some candles that smell like the ocean. Maybe you do some kind of handkerchief that's printed with the pattern of the dress your heroine is wearing. Digital and experiential rewards Oriana: But you can really think beyond merch into digital rewards and experiential rewards. There are a lot of parts of the writing process that can be pulled out and packaged as rewards — things like notes from the field, outtakes, deleted scenes. I've had people write bloopers, as if it were a comedy movie, added new scenes or novellas, other pieces from different works that you've done. Certainly your backlist and other books you've written can all be included. We've seen people do tours of the writer's studio, things like that. Also think about what skills you have in addition to your writing. Perhaps you're excellent at marketing or social media or poetry — you can offer webinars on those sorts of things. Other kinds of ways that people can experience your creative practice. High-end and naming rewards Oriana: Then you can get into high-end, one-off, crazy rewards. One whole section of rewards I love is naming rights. We've seen all kinds — “We'll name the dragon after your dog, or after your mother-in-law. We'll name the hero after your son.” There's a LitRPG novelist named Matt Dinniman who does this really well. He writes these big-cast novels — there are dungeons, and you're in an intergalactic reality TV show with hundreds of characters. In his last campaign, for $666 he would kill you off in his next book, and for $777 he'd let you live and write a whole scene around you personally. You can also do book release parties. You can do book clubs. If you're writing children's books, you can do colouring pages or supplemental material for teachers or other educators. The sky is really the limit, and it is based on your creativity and the things that both you can make and that your audience wants. This is another opportunity — talk to them. Ask them: if I'm going to do a piece of swag, would you rather have an enamel pin or a makeup bag? If I'm going to do alternate covers, would you like the blue cover or the red cover? See what your people are interested in, and then figure out whether it's possible for you to deliver it to them. Learn about the platform from experts Jo: I've been publishing and selling books through online retailers, as well as my own store, since 2008. I know what I'm doing, but I still had a lot to learn. With Kickstarter, it's essentially a completely different ecosystem, with different rules and a different audience, so you have to learn the ropes. Even if you're super successful in other places, you might crash and burn on Kickstarter unless you understand how it works and change your approach accordingly. Start backing campaigns Jo: See how it feels to back Kickstarter campaigns and discover what draws you in as a reader and a fan of specific things. You might find projects you love outside of books — there's plenty of other projects outside of books. You can browse the publishing category to find new books, and also use the search to find things you might like. In this way, you can support fellow creators and learn how the Kickstarter site works for discoverability and marketing. Make sure you go through the Kickstarter.com resources — they have a creator pack which will give you direction on the campaign. Also, their terms of use are really important to read, as there are some assumptions you'll have because you've published on another platform that are incorrect. So do not assume you know what you're doing if this is your first campaign. Ask for feedback before launch Jo: Once you have a draft of your campaign, ask specific people to review it before it launches. You can share a preview prior to launch and get feedback on your page. This helps you refine your story and the rewards, answer any questions before the campaign goes live, and it can also help pique the interest of your audience. I asked specific people who had done Kickstarter campaigns for help at different stages of the process, and this was really useful too. Review common mistakes from other campaigns Jo: If you examine how others made mistakes, you can learn from them. The most common seem to be: Not finishing the book before the campaign Getting the financials wrong for production, shipping, and any other rewards. I know some authors who have ended up breaking even, or sometimes even out of pocket from campaigns. Don't do that. Not making the most of the story sales page and not including everything necessary, so backers don't understand and don't want to support the campaign — essentially, not being clear enough Setting unrealistic goals, like expecting to make six figures on a first campaign Not allowing enough time for everything Not seeking feedback from people who have done it before Not marketing the campaign enough Overpromising and under-delivering Poor communication with backers about the status of rewards Set aside more time than you think you need Jo: The campaign ended up being far more significant than I expected in terms of workload and time to complete. Everyone told me that beforehand, but it was still a surprise. It took time to prepare the multiple editions for the rewards. I usually produce an ebook, paperback, and a large print edition, and I narrate my own nonfiction audiobooks. But for this Kickstarter, I also wanted to do this special hardback with colour photos, a flyleaf cover and silver foil. I wanted to create a special print product I could be proud of. I'm proud of all my books in terms of the content, but the usual paperback print-on-demand books are more about the content than the true beauty of the product. For Pilgrimage: A Book of My Heart, I wanted a special edition, so I worked with Jane on the design, going through my photos from the various pilgrimages to find those that resonated with the content — for example, the cadaver tomb at Canterbury, and my Compostela from the Camino de Santiago. Once we finished, I had that proof copy rushed so we could turn around everything. And I love, love, love the hardback. It has a silken-finish cover and it feels lovely and weighty. The pictures came out well, as the paper is of a higher quality and weight to allow for colour printing. Overall, I am incredibly proud of the finished product. I even sent a copy to my mother-in-law, which I have never done before. And yes, she thinks it's good. I definitely should have allowed more time, as I spent most of the Christmas and New Year period working on the book, recording and editing the audiobook, and preparing for the campaign. I also didn't have time to prepare, record, edit, and produce the Writing Setting and Sense of Place course until after the campaign, and it was really hard to find the energy to do this afterwards. Building the campaign page Jo: It took time to build the Kickstarter campaign page, create the video, and incorporate feedback. Most authors don't write sales pages anymore. Sure, we write a sales description for the book page on the retailers, but we don't often do a whole page for multiple editions. On Kickstarter, you are basically writing a sales page for your campaign, which they call a “story.” Some of your existing audience might just click through and back the campaign without reading it, but most backers will check out the details to find answers to any questions they have. It is a very long page, and you also need a video — or you don't need one, but it's highly recommended. It's best to record the video at the last stage when everything else is done. You can still see my Kickstarter video on my campaign page, so I won't go through everything in detail. But the key aspects are: Who the campaign is aimed at Why the campaign is important to me and the book What products are available Pictures of everything — the page should be really visual — and I included the images in the video as well Sample chapters and sample audio Specifications, with weight, pages, listening time, table of contents About me, the author Stretch goals Add-ons Any questions, risks, and challenges So it's pretty long. Then the reward levels have to be set up carefully for each pledge level with shipping costs, and specific details about what's included. Eventually, I felt like my page had way too much information, but since I didn't really get many backer questions, I guess it did what it was supposed to do. I rewrote and edited that page so many times — adding and changing the order of things, responding to feedback, switching things around. But hopefully I can use that as a template for other campaigns. Marketing takes time too Jo: It took time to prepare the marketing for the campaign. I'm pretty low-key for most launches these days — I publish a book, send a few emails to my lists, announce it on the podcast, do a little social media, update my websites, and move on to the next book. So this was probably my biggest effort in terms of a launch since my first novel back in 2011. I only had a two-week campaign, so I needed to make the most of that window. I'm going to detail the marketing in a separate section, but it took a lot of time to prepare the various things and execute them, as well as keep the energy up for promotion during the campaign. Two weeks was definitely the longest I would want to do — I was really over it by the end. Delivering stretch rewards Jo: It took more time to create and deliver the extra stretch rewards I promised. Since I had pretty low expectations of funding, I set my first stretch goal at £10,000 for “Lessons Learned from Writing a Travel Memoir.” When I promised it, I thought it might be a few pages of tips, and I didn't even think we would get there. But I'm incapable of delivering something that is half done. So when we did hit £10,000, I wrote essentially a short book on the topic, which I then formatted as an ebook and recorded as an audiobook. I'm actually going to turn that into a proper book at some point, so the content will get reused. But that definitely took more time than I expected, because I hadn't prepared it in advance. The backer spreadsheet and fulfilment Jo: It took time to figure out the backer spreadsheet and check all the fulfilment details. Once you finish your campaign, you send out surveys for mailing addresses and to fulfil rewards. I also needed to turn the backer report into a printing order for BookVault, and that was nerve-wracking. The spreadsheets were different formats, and then we spot-checked the orders to make sure people got the right books based on their orders. I was petrified that some people might get the wrong book, and I checked and checked and checked — both on the spreadsheet, and then once the orders were loaded, I checked BookVault as well. I was worried I'd have to resend the right book, which would end up with me out of pocket because they'd have to do double printing and shipping. But thankfully, all the checking made everything good, and I haven't heard from anyone who got the wrong book. Following up with backers Jo: It took time to follow up on failed payments and address issues. Most backers were easy to deal with — they received the updates and Kickstarter emails, they filled in the surveys, and I didn't have any problems. But there were problems with about 5% of backers, most of which were not their fault. There were failed payments when banks thought Kickstarter might be fraud. There were missed emails because of issues with deliverability, so backers didn't receive the rewards, or they didn't fill in the survey and return their address, which meant I couldn't do the order with BookVault — I had to do it later or manually. I had to follow up with every single one of these, some of them multiple times, and I slowly reduced my list of outstanding backers. A tip: If you back a Kickstarter campaign, please log on to Kickstarter a few weeks after the campaign has finished and check for updates. It's possible that you're not receiving the emails from Kickstarter, and the creator may need details from you in order to fulfil your pledge. Tax implications Jo: It took time to figure out the tax implications. This is not legal or financial advice, and your taxes will vary by jurisdiction. Please ask your accountant how you need to treat Kickstarter or any other book-related income. Wherever you are in the world, you will need to pay tax on the income, because we all have income tax, but the complicating factor is whether you also need to consider sales tax. And this definitely differs by jurisdiction. I went to my accountant, who said we should handle it as per any other book sales. I followed my accountant's advice, which treats backers the same way as my customers who buy on Shopify. Ask a professional in your jurisdiction about taxes and finances, even if you are in the UK. I cannot answer any questions. I'm not an accountant. Closing the loop Jo: I haven't had much time to do anything else, as I felt like I couldn't start anything new until everything in the campaign was finished. As soon as the campaign window closed, I felt like I had an open loop in my brain. I desperately wanted to close it in order to say the project was done. I have now delivered all the book and course rewards, and these lessons learned are really the last part of it. I've talked before about the different kinds of energy you need as an author — starting energy, pushing-through energy, and finishing energy. Once the campaign was funded, my finishing energy kicked in and I was driven to get everything finished as soon as possible. I sent the digital rewards out within a few days of the campaign closing, and also shipped the unsigned books, ordered the print books, then went and signed them, and then recorded the course. It has been my primary focus for the last few months, and I haven't been able to do much else except the podcast, which is my weekly commitment to you. Once again, I should have blocked out the time. Bonus tip: Don't plan an international speaking and book research trip during the campaign. International shipping and fulfilment Jo: Be careful with international shipping and fulfilment of signed books or products. Shipping costs can sink your campaign if you get them wrong, so be very careful with this area. I have sold books in 175 countries, and this podcast has a listenership in 228 countries, so I really wanted to have a completely international campaign. I wanted to ship Pilgrimage in any format to any country. Originally I thought I would just charge a bit extra for the book and include shipping. But once I set the book editions up at BookVault and I had the weight and dimensions sorted, I started checking the shipping costs to different countries. For example, we lived in New Zealand for seven years — my husband is a New Zealander, so we go back — so I definitely had to sell in New Zealand. And of course the shipping to New Zealand is very, very different to the US, for example. It is crazy how much shipping costs vary. I discovered I couldn't just assume it would all wash out and I'd end up making a profit somehow. I had to be a lot more careful with the calculations. So I focused on my biggest markets, which in terms of my book sales are the US, UK, European Union, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. I added a note on the campaign to say I would add any other country for print shipping if people contacted me. As it turned out, no one asked for any other countries, so that was the best way to go in the end. If you're in a country where the shipping is outrageous — if you're willing to pay for the shipping, then that's absolutely fine. It's just that for the campaign, I had to focus. When the unexpected happens Jo: Of course, you can try to prepare for everything and then something unexpected and out of your control happens. A big spanner in the works for my campaign was the Russian hack, which took down the UK Royal Mail just before my launch. If you're not in the UK, you wouldn't have heard about this, because in some ways it's a very small issue — but it basically took down Royal Mail and a lot of shipping went into flux. It specifically hit the international side, and other shipping firms ramped up to take the slack. But it made planning for the launch difficult, as the prices were shifting and I didn't know how delivery was going to work. Even for posting in the UK it was hard, because the mail offices were getting backed up. Once again, I'm grateful for BookVault's adaptability, because I could check different addresses and shipping prices even as things changed, and they added new providers for shipping. About 95% of my shipping ended up being within an acceptable range of what I charged. So do your research, weigh and measure your items so you can get exact quotes for each. Check what kind of packaging you need. If you're doing your own shipping, you have to actually type in the shipping costs per reward and per country — it's a lot of manual setup to get it right. But this is critical, so check and double-check — and in fact, I triple- and quadruple-checked, then went to sleep, and then the next day checked again. Having spent 13 years as an IT consultant prior to this career as an author, I will always remember and have learned from the fact that something just might not be working, and then literally if you just go away, go to bed, come back the next day, it'll probably just be working. Sometimes it actually works. So yes, I did that, and every time I checked, pretty much I found something I'd typed in that didn't quite match, because you also have to retype — if you include all the books in the add-ons, you have to type it again. I didn't stop checking until the day before the launch, and then it was right. I was happy, and everything seemed to be fine. Shipping is always a moving target Jo: Revisiting this section made me laugh, because as I record this, in the week before I launch Bones of the Deep, international shipping is disrupted again — by the war in Iran, and the Strait of Hormuz being closed, which is affecting fuel prices. This underscores yet again how important it is to check your shipping. Of course, you can add shipping on later — Kickstarter allows this, as does BackerKit and other services. But as a backer, a customer of people on the platform, I hate being asked to pay shipping later. And since I hate that myself, I don't want other people to feel the same way. So just add a little buffer in, as asking people to pay an extra dollar in their pledge is not that big a deal, but you being out of pocket for every book shipped may well be. Sacha Black on pre-launch and fulfilment In an interview I did with Sacha Black, who writes as Ruby Roe, in December 2025, we talked about her issues with fulfilment. Sacha does a lot of complex printing, shipping, and custom book boxes and more. Her last campaign made over six figures, but of course it had its challenges. Here's Sacha with some of her tips, and then Oriana to close out this section with some other mistakes. Sacha: The first thing is — even before you start your Kickstarter — the pre-launch followers are critical. A lot of people think, “Well…” I guess there's a lot of loud noise about all these big numbers about how much people can make on Kickstarter, but actually a lot of it is driven by you, the author, pushing your audience to Kickstarter. You need more pre-launch followers than you think you do. Lots of people don't put enough impetus on the marketing beforehand. Almost all of our Kickstarter marketing is beforehand, because we drive so many people to that follow button. The other thing we do is early-bird pricing. We get the majority of our income on a campaign on day one. I think it was something wild, like 80% this time was on day one, so that's really important. Fulfilment takes longer than you think Sacha: The second thing is, it takes so, so very much longer than you think it does to fulfil a campaign, and you must factor in that cost. Because if it's not you fulfilling, you're paying somebody else to fulfil it. And if it is you fulfilling it, you must account for your own time in the pricing of your campaign. The other thing is that the amount of time it takes to fulfil is directly proportionate to the size of the campaign. So you do have to think about that. The other lesson we have learned is that overseas printing will drag your timelines out far longer than you think. So whatever you think it's going to take you to fulfil — add several months more onto that, and put that information in your campaign. Reinvesting profit and exclusive rewards Sacha: The last thing — if you have some profit in the Kickstarter, because not all Kickstarters are actually massively profitable. They either don't account enough for shipping, or they don't account enough in the pricing. Thankfully, ours have been profitable, but we've actually reinvested that profit back into buying more stock and more merchandise, which not everybody would want to do if they don't have a warehouse. However, we do have one. We are stockpiling merchandise and books so that we can do mystery boxes later on down the line. It's probably a year away, but we are buying extra of everything so that we have that in the warehouse. So it depends on what you want to do with your profit. For us, it was all about buying more books, basically. The other thing to think about is: what is it that you're doing that's exclusive to Kickstarter? Because you will get backers on Kickstarter who want that quirky, unique thing that they're not going to be able to get anywhere else. But what about you? You've done more Kickstarters than me — what do you think is the biggest lesson you've learned? Tiers, bundles, and AI for planning rewards Jo: Well, I think all of mine together add up to the one you just did. Although I will comment — you said something like £75 per pre-launch backer. That is obviously dependent on your tiers for the rewards, so most authors won't have that amount. My average order value, which I know is slightly different, but I don't offer things like book boxes as you have — so a lot of it will depend on the tiers. Some people will do a Kickstarter just with an ebook — just with one ebook and maybe a bundle of ebooks — so you're never going to make it up to that kind of value. So this is important too: have a look at what people offer on their different levels of Kickstarter. In fact, here's my AI tip for the day. What you can do — what I did with my Buried and the Drowned campaign recently — is, you know, I'm happy uploading my book. I uploaded it to ChatGPT and said, “Tell me, what are some ideas for the different reward tiers that I can do on Kickstarter?” And it will give you some ideas for what you can do, what kind of bundles you might want to do. So bundling your backlist is another thing you can do — as upsells, or you can just do it like I did for Blood Vintage, where I did a horror bundle of four standalone horror books in one of the upper tiers. Bundling is a good way to do it, and also upselling your backlist is a really good way to up things. And also, if you do it digitally — for ebooks and audiobooks — there's a lot less time in fulfilment. Oriana on the biggest mistakes Jo: What are some of the top mistakes you see that mean the campaign doesn't fund, or there are other issues? Oriana: Totally. I mean, the biggest mistake I think authors make — or any creator — is overestimating their ability to reach their crowd. Making sure that your ambition matches your reach is the number one most important thing to come close to guaranteeing that you will be successful. If you're an emerging writer and you're still building your audience and you don't have that many followers or subscribers out in the world, you should not try to fund a multi-volume leather-bound omnibus. Do a real honest assessment of who's in your crowd, how to find them, what percentage of them are likely to support what you're doing, and then find a project that feels realistic based on those numbers. That's really the biggest thing, conceptually. Building a strong project page Oriana: As far as tips for a project page — again, back campaigns and look at what other people are doing. A project page can be either as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. You definitely want to talk about the book: what is in it, what you're writing. Do a trope card if you want — we're seeing those all over the site. Say what kind of book it is, and the specs: page count, trim size, cover design. Obviously if you're doing a special edition, exactly what sorts of bells and whistles, with a prototype if you can. But you can be really expansive from there. What are your inspirations? Who are your collaborators? What brought you to this work? What are some of the things that make you excited about your writing practice, your timeline, your budget? What made you choose these rewards and how you're going to produce them? All those sorts of things will make backers feel both more trusting that you will do the things you're promising, and just more excited to be part of your journey. Marketing your Kickstarter campaign Let's talk about marketing. First, a snippet from Oriana, and then I'll share specifics around marketing tips — many of which are useful if you're launching in any other way. Kickstarter's algorithm rewards attention Oriana: Being on Kickstarter will help you grow your audience, but it's definitely not everything. You really do need to bring your people first. Our algorithm works on attention, so any project that's getting clicks, getting backings, getting comments — our algorithm says, “Oh, people want to look at this. We will expose it to more and more people.” That means raising it up in search results, slotting it into various of the macros and carousels around the site. Our recommendation engine powers recommended projects on the top of campaigns and at the bottom of emails. We are doing a lot to make sure that projects are being surfaced to folks who want to see them. Talk about the book while you're writing it Jo: Talk and share about the book while you're writing it, even though you might not know what it will turn into. I always share my book research and projects in progress, so this was nothing new. But Pilgrimage was years in the making, so I had years of sharing aspects of it. I've shared pictures from every pilgrimage walk on Instagram at @jfpennauthor and Facebook at J.F. Penn Author, and sometimes Facebook The Creative Penn. I've talked on this podcast about each walk, and I've done solo episodes and blog posts about each on my Books and Travel podcast and blog. I also did a poll and shared my book cover design process, and then I did an article on why I ignored target-reader feedback in the end. All this meant that many in my community — including you listening — became aware of my solo walking and also my ecclesiastical interest, my architecture interest, and you enjoyed my photos along the way if you follow me on social media. So when I announced the launch, it was the culmination of years of build-up. Use the pre-launch page early Jo: Set up the Kickstarter pre-launch page as early as possible, and keep promoting it. You can launch a pre-launch page once Kickstarter has approved your project, and you don't have to have finished everything to make it available — just complete the personal and business setup, and fill in enough detail so they can verify your identity and judge the campaign to be real and within the guidelines, and not a scam or spam campaign. I started to promote my pre-launch page, and by the time we went live, I had people signed up on launch. Those people get an email from Kickstarter. Those people were responsible for my campaign funding within the first few minutes, and then taking it to 5x the target within the first 24 hours. Then I started to email my lists, and all of this type of thing. But it was those pre-launch signups that really kick-started — see what I did there? — the whole thing. The benefit of using Kickstarter for multiple projects is that previous backers are notified of your new project. This compounds the effect over time, and is why those who use Kickstarter successfully do multiple campaigns. Kickstarter SEO and on-platform marketing Jo: Kickstarter has its own ecosystem. There's a discovery algorithm that can help you find projects you might like as a backer, and there are different ways to search, but only certain aspects appear in the search. So your title, subtitle, and your header image need to be optimised so people can find you. Your story sales page needs to be clear, with a compelling pitch. People also have to want your rewards, so marketing has to be baked into the products you're offering and who you're trying to attract. Your video doesn't need to be a professional-level product, but it does need to connect with potential backers, so take the time to make a good one. If you've never made a video before, you will need time to upskill. Kickstarter also has social media. Use #KickstarterReads and tag @KickstarterReads. If your project funds quickly and has a good trajectory, you might get picked for the “Projects We Love” badge, which also gives you better discoverability. I got that pretty fast. You can also tag Kickstarter on social media and inform them of your campaign. Content marketing Jo: Content marketing is offering something useful or interesting or inspiring or funny or entertaining for free, in order to attract your target market so they buy your book. This might be an article or blog post, video, audio, podcast, social media, whatever. For fiction, it's usually a free book or a short story or other free examples of your writing that draw people in. Content marketing is my favourite form of marketing, as it is about attraction, not interruption. It also involves creating something in the world that lasts over time, as opposed to an ephemeral spike ad or a social media post that quickly disappears. Each has its place, of course, and I use them all. This podcast is content marketing, although it now also provides direct revenue in the form of corporate advertising and Patreon support. Thank you, patrons and advertisers — and I consider this to be part of my creative body of work. My Books and Travel podcast is also content marketing. Guest appearances for the launch Jo: For this launch, I did content marketing on my own sites and shows, as well as other people's, which I arranged and recorded in advance. I've also mentioned the campaign in the introduction to every one of these shows leading up to the launch and during the launch. I was on some podcasts: Sacred Steps with Kevin Donahue, Wish I'd Known Then… For Writers with Sara Rosett and Jami Albright, Travel Writing World with Jeremy Bassetti, and Into the Woods with Holly Worton. I also did several of my own. I did one on this feed. I did another on the Books and Travel feed. I also included two chapters from the audiobook on the Books and Travel podcast. All of these took time to prepare and produce, but each is a chance for another person to hear about the book. Plus, they're evergreen, and Pilgrimage is available for everyone to buy now, so I can point people at Pilgrimage on other stores. Use a redirection URL Jo: For all my marketing, I used JFPenn.com/pilgrimage, which I can redirect using the Pretty Links plugin on WordPress and point to wherever I want it to go. Before the launch, it went to the pre-launch page; then the campaign itself; and now it goes to the book page. Once I build a special landing page, it will go there. Depending on where you're listening will depend on where it goes, but that's JFPenn.com/pilgrimage. The URL needs to be easy to say out loud for use in podcast interviews and audio-first media. Email your list multiple times Jo: Some things change in book marketing — like the emergence of new platforms like TikTok — but one thing has stayed the same for decades: if you have an email list, you can always sell books. Your email list consists of people who have opted in to hear from you, so you can email them about normal launches as well as your Kickstarter campaign. I have two email lists: one for The Creative Penn around writing, and the other around J.F. Penn for my fiction. I emailed both lists multiple times at different times in the campaign. I use ConvertKit for my email, but there are other options for authors. Use referral links for tracking Jo: Use specific referral links for different aspects of the campaign for tracking returns. Kickstarter allows you to create different tracking links so you can link revenue to specific marketing events. For example, I used one link for my Creative Penn email list, another for my J.F. Penn email list, and yet another for my Facebook advertising. You can also add the Meta pixel and Google Analytics code to the campaign, which can also help with figuring out advertising. And if you don't know what those are, don't worry — you don't have to use them. Book images and social media Jo: I initially mocked up the book using cover images on MockupShots.com, and then resized them in Canva in order to create social media images. I later did a book photo shoot with the hardback in different places to give me more marketing assets to play with — all of which I will use over time as part of ongoing marketing. I prepared and scheduled social media posts to go out every day, and I did that in advance, primarily for Twitter at @thecreativepenn, my Instagram and Facebook at J.F. Penn Author, and also Facebook at The Creative Penn. It was a lot of work, but I really enjoyed it — weirdly — and I need to do more of this for my other books, especially as with Shopify, Facebook, and Instagram link directly into my store, so I can tag books. These days social commerce is a lot smoother through mobile, so someone can see an image on social, click through, and buy immediately. I also did some quotes from the book — so I did pictures, I also did quotes — and I blatantly used our cute British Shorthair cats, Cashew and Ramen, for marketing reasons. I use Buffer to schedule my social media, but there are other tools. I also asked some friends who are travel influencers to share the book, and I sent them the hardback in advance so they could review if they liked. Thanks to Sarah Baxter and Alastair Humphreys for sharing the book, and especially a big thank you to Anna McNuff, who gave birth to twins that week and still managed to share about Pilgrimage. Backer engagement and stretch goals Jo: Let's be clear — it was not natural for me to push a book every day for two weeks. I also felt awkward about engaging with backers multiple times, let alone the wider community who I was sure was sick of my book, but I did it anyway, as it was only a short campaign of two weeks. I sent four updates during the campaign to backers, some of which are visible to the public on my Kickstarter, and then I sent updates afterwards with delivery of the rewards. Although I did resist the stretch goals, as I mentioned earlier, I went with “Notes on Writing a Travel Memoir” and the backer live Q&A. I did scramble to decide on and deliver those, as I really didn't think I would need them — which is crazy. I had such low expectations of what I might achieve. But next time I would definitely plan stretch goals in advance and in more detail. Facebook advertising Jo: I did some Facebook ads for the campaign — although I should call them Meta ads, because they're also on Instagram. I primarily aimed them at my email lists and people who follow my pages, but also some wider reach using lookalike lists and walking interests. I used a tracking link, so I know that the revenue that came in through people backing it more than paid for the ads. So I would do more of this next time. Marketing things I didn't do Jo: I didn't try to get any press or traditional media attention, mainly because I would have had to approach outlets much earlier in the process. I didn't have the hardback finished until a few weeks before the campaign, rather than a few months before, which is when pitching for press is a better idea. I also didn't collaborate with other creators on Kickstarter, even though I knew other authors doing campaigns at the same time. A couple of people asked me about cross-promotion, but their campaigns were not at all related to Pilgrimage. As with all book marketing, there is only a point to cross-promotion if you target the same readers. I had intended to do some Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube Live videos, but I struggle with live videos in general — and especially when I'm tired — so I didn't go ahead with those. I might consider more of those next time. Do a survey for everyone Jo: My tip is — do a survey for everyone. As part of a campaign I previously backed, I noticed that I didn't actually need to do a survey for the digital backers, because they could just get the rewards if I emailed through Kickstarter. And sure enough, you can just email the BookFunnel links, the course discount code, etc., through the campaign. But this was a mistake. I should have done a survey for everyone. If you do a survey, you can get the real email, as some people use a cloaked email. You can also include a checkbox asking people if they want to sign up for your email list. Respecting backer data Jo: So while you do get the email addresses of everyone who backs your campaign in your backer report, you cannot just upload them to your email provider and start emailing them about your other books. Kickstarter's terms of use include the following: When you use Kickstarter, and especially if you create a successful project, you may receive information about other users, including things like their names, email addresses, and postal addresses. This information is provided for the purpose of participating in a Kickstarter project. Don't use it for other purposes and don't abuse it. This is about data protection and privacy laws. Basically, Kickstarter is the platform in this instance, and people have signed up to receive emails from Kickstarter, but not from you. All emails about the campaign go through Kickstarter, and you don't have permission to just upload that list to your own email system and start sending more emails. They have not specifically said they want that, unless they have in a survey with opt-in — which I didn't do. Of course, there are indirect ways to attract people to sign up for your list. My book Pilgrimage includes ways to hear from me further, so some backers will go on and sign up for my free thriller ebook at JFPenn.com/free, or my Author Blueprint at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint. You can also do updates later, for example when you have a new campaign, and in this way Kickstarter acts as a different ecosystem for email. Should you consider a Kickstarter campaign for your book? Jo: To be honest — only if you consider this to be a career you want to invest in, and a platform you want to do more than one campaign with. If you just have one book or a couple of books, or you're just starting out, or you don't want to do marketing and connect with readers, then definitely don't do a Kickstarter. It is not some magic button that will make you money — like uploading to Amazon is not a magic button that will make you money. It takes time and effort to have a successful campaign. But if you do want to build a long-term author business, then selling direct should have some part to play, and Kickstarter is a great way to make more money per book and connect with readers. It's really only the beginning of the trend of authors selling direct, so don't worry — you can learn how to do this over time. Update for Bones of the Deep, my 7th campaign in April 2026 Jo: It was interesting to revisit my lessons learned and other people's tips, and really, there are only a few things that have changed. I love doing Kickstarter campaigns now Firstly, I absolutely love doing Kickstarter campaigns. I am not nervous at all anymore, and I am just so thrilled to produce gorgeous hardback editions of my books this way. I love delivering beautiful books and new stories or nonfiction to my readers. I love doing the discovery writing webinars and the coaching, and just in general, I appreciate the opportunity to publish this way. I feel like a “real author” — with beautiful hardbacks, doing a signing, getting photos and emails from readers who receive the books. Custom printing keeps expanding In terms of other changes, over the last few years since Pilgrimage, BookVault has expanded their custom printing, so now I have custom endpapers, sprayed edges, different kinds of foil, as well as the silken paper and the ribbon and photos inside. These gorgeous editions are my personal creative reason to keep doing campaigns. I love saying “I made this!” And over time, I would love to get all my backlist into special editions. A repeatable process I'm still doing similar kinds of rewards — the book in all editions — and it's all finished so it's lower stress. Even the audiobook narration is done, so I can fulfil immediately. There's just the live discovery writing webinar to do, and stretch goal Q&A and consulting sessions. I'm also doing bundles, and all my backlist gets bundled in the add-ons, so I have a repeatable process, which makes things easier. Using AI in production I'm using more AI, specifically in the images and video. I love making book images with ChatGPT and Gemini's Nano Banana, and story images with Midjourney, and I use ElevenLabs with my voice clone for audiobooks. I fill in all the details in the AI section of the Kickstarter page, so you can go have a look at that and model it as you like. Spike income, realistic expectations I still like the spike income — but to be clear, my campaigns have varied in terms of financial success, as would be expected given they are all so different. My highest was Writing the Shadow at over £36,000 ($48,000), and my lowest was The Buried and the Drowned, a short story collection, at just under £8,000 ($10,700) — not a surprise at how different they are, given the audiences. Together my campaigns have now made £105,868 (just over $140,000), which I am very happy with. And of course, that's just the beginning, as then I put the books on my stores — JFPennBooks.com and CreativePennBooks.com — and on the usual platforms. A sustainable launch rhythm I still like the project approach — the short-term campaign focus — as I am good at sustaining marketing energy for a short period, and then I can drop off again. As I discussed with Sara Rosett last week as well, it feels sustainable for my career, unlike constant social media or ads. Lower-key marketing this time around I'm putting a lot less energy into marketing in general, relying on pre-launch signups over months of build-up as I talk about my writing process on the podcast, then emailing my lists, announcing it here, and scheduling some social media. It's pretty low-key these days, and that is a happy thing. However, for this campaign, I am planning to run some Meta ads direct to the campaign page, since I have Claude Code/Cowork to help me set them up and run them and crunch the data — and that takes the strain off considerably. More campaigns to come I will definitely be doing more Kickstarter campaigns, most likely a nonfiction one next. I am so glad I was able to get over my fears and do that first one, and I hope that encourages you to consider what might be possible for you and your book. So, if you'd like to check out my campaign for Bones of the Deep — even if you don't want the book, you can always model the sales page, or check out the book trailer — it's at JFPenn.com/bones. That link will go to the Kickstarter campaign from 20 April until early May 2026, and will then redirect. The post Kickstarter Tips for Authors: Rewards, Shipping, Marketing, and Lessons Learned first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Paulbo and Brian had been chatting for a while about having him on again when we found out we both love Brandon Sanderson's novels. Epic novel series is the topic and we had a blast.

Who are the greatest science fiction and fantasy authors North America has produced?That's exactly what we're tackling in this episode of Fantasy for the Ages.Today, Jim is ranking the Top 25 North American SFF Authors since 1930, based on quality, influence, success, and overall body of work. That means we're looking at the writers who didn't just tell great stories…

15 Illustrated Short Stories Bonus short stories and art and writing tips by L. Ron Hubbard / Orson Scott Card / Brian C. Hailes / Nina Kiriki Hoffman / Larry Niven If 42 is the answer, these stories ask the questions worth thinking about. Discover fifteen unforgettable science fiction and fantasy short stories—illustrated in full color—featuring twelve emerging voices alongside three acclaimed masters of the genre. From visionary sci-fi to emotionally rich fantasy and quiet horror, this collection delivers bold “what ifs” that linger long after the final page. What if a perfect rescue went catastrophically wrong? What if the “better you” doesn't want to share your life? What if love could survive inside a virtual reality? Inside, you'll encounter a flawless time-rescue gone wrong, a beauty treatment with terrifying consequences, a detective hunted by a body-hopping killer, and a homesteader uncovering a truth that rewrites Earth itself. You'll also find dragons that defy myth, fairy-tale chaos, supernatural horror, and high-concept science fiction that blends heart, humor, and imagination. From time travel and first contact to magical realism, monsters, and folklore-inspired fantasy, every story is paired with an original illustration—bringing these worlds vividly to life. Featuring a classic story by L. Ron Hubbard and original stories by Orson Scott Card and Nina Kiriki Hoffman, alongside twelve rising stars shaping the future of speculative fiction. Writers of the Future Volume 42 is your gateway to bold ideas, fresh voices, and stories readers love to discover—and recommend. Perfect for fans of: Orson Scott Card, Nina Kiriki Hoffman, Blake Crouch, Brandon Sanderson, V. E. Schwab, Naomi Novik, Michael Crichton, Ted Chiang, Ken Liu, and Black Mirror. Includes: • 12 illustrated science fiction & fantasy short stories • 3 bonus stories by bestselling authors • 3 articles on the craft and business of writing and illustrating from top creators Selected from thousands of entries worldwide, Writers of the Future Volume 42 brings together a new generation of authors and illustrators—your launchpad into the future of science fiction and

Fantasy authors are raging at bad streaming adaptations of their beloved book series. Names like Brandon Sanderson and George RR Martin are voicing strong opinions about terrible book to streaming series and more authors are starting to pile on. Can you imagine if Tolkien were still alive? Watch the podcast episodes on YouTube and all major podcast hosts including Spotify. CLOWNFISH TV is an independent, opinionated news and commentary podcast that covers Entertainment and Tech from a consumer's point of view. We talk about Gaming, Comics, Anime, TV, Movies, Animation and more. Hosted by Kneon and Geeky Sparkles. Get more news, views and reviews on Clownfish TV News - https://more.clownfishtv.com/ On YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/ClownfishTV On Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4Tu83D1NcCmh7K1zHIedvg On Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/clownfish-tv-audio-edition/id1726838629 MORE CLOWNFISH TV - Official Merch Store: http://ClownfishMinus.com Facebook - https://facebook.com/ClownfishTV X - https://x.com/ClownfishTVcom Clownfish TV subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ClownfishTVOfficial/ Disclaimer: This series is produced by Clownfish Studios and WebReef Media, and is part of ClownfishTV.com. Opinions expressed by our contributors do not necessarily reflect the views of our guests, affiliates, sponsors, or advertisers. ClownfishTV.com is an unofficial news source and has no connection to any company that we may cover. This channel and website and the content made available through this site are for educational, entertainment and informational purposes only. These so-called “fair uses” are permitted even if the use of the work would otherwise be infringing. #Amazon #Streaming #Netflix #Books #Podcast #Commentary #News #Reaction #Gaming #Comedy #Entertainment #Hollywood #PopCulture #Tech #Anime #FYP Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The first part was so good, we had to do another! Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells are here for Part 2 of their trilogy rankings, tackling Hollywood's most iconic movie trilogies. Who will rise to the top, who shall take the fall, and what other surprises are in store? All that and more on today's episode of Intentionally Blank!Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

In this episode, Shawn Q and Jack cover chapters 42 & 43 from Rhythm of War by Brandon Sanderson. The invasion of Urithiru is complete and Kaladin is on the run.Recording and Editing by Shawn QInfo Dump Production by Buzzkill JoeProduced By; The Heroes of Hacathra: Jack, Jay, Phil, Shawn, and Mike and the wonderful Patreon Team.Theme Song by: Jack Forrest ProductionsAdditional Music by: Jason Morin Logo by Trina Macintoshif you'd like to support the show consider visiting our Patreon Page https://www.patreon.com/Heroesofor visit us on twitter https://twitter.com/Heroesof1 or on Instagram https://instagram.com/thestormpod  or email us at http://heroesofhacathra@gmail.comSupport the show

Bonus Episodes on patreon: https://patreon.com/veryreallygood BANGER THIS WEEK!!! We've got my favourite author, Brandon Sanderson, on the pod this week to talk about so much stuff! We discuss Brandon's massive Apple TV deal, we talk about video games, books, and we even did a tier list! Huge thanks to Brandon for chatting with me! Go read his books if you haven't already and go follow him right now https://www.youtube.com/@UC3g-w83Cb5pEAu5UmRrge-A https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/ 00:00 intro 01:34 brandon joins the pod 07:06 brandon's big year 09:06 mistborn movie announcement 10:21 movie adaptations 13:07 pitching mistborn movie 17:49 mistborn script update 19:15 magic system on the big screen 20:36 kurt's reading journey 25:03 non fiction vs fiction 27:57 cheating ob book reports 31:34 zelda talk 35:08 gamer mode activated 38:48 my video game pitch 40:42 confronting brandon 43:30 talking comedy 49:20 aura farming in stormlight 53:04 brandon ranks allomantic metals Follow Me: https://instagram.com/kurtisconner/ https://twitter.com/kurtisconner https://youtube.com/user/kurtisconner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells dive back into the Hollywood Thunderdome to declare the greatest movie trilogy of all time! Star Wars, Iron Man, Back to the Future, and more . . . but who will make it to the top? Find out on this episode of Intentionally Blank!Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Daredevil Michelle Khare lives life to the extreme in Challenge Accepted, amassing more than 6 million followers and more than 1 billion views. Across the show, you'll see Michelle attempt everything from Tom Cruise's Deadliest stunt to Harry Houdini's water torture cell to trying to earn a black belt in taekwondo in only 90 days.This episode is brought to you by:Fin powerful AI Agent for all your customer service: Fin.Ai/TimMonarch track, budget, plan, and do more with your money: Monarch.com/Tim Momentous Fiber+ 3-in-1 formula with soluble fiber, insoluble fiber, and Solnul® resistant starch: LiveMomentous.com/TimAG1 all-in-one nutritional supplement: DrinkAG1.com/TimTIMESTAMPS:[00:00:00] Start.[00:00:24] Challenge Accepted: The logline and why breakdowns stay in the edit.[00:03:05] Growing up in Shreveport, LA: Friday night movies, the AFI Top 100, and interning on Snitch.[00:06:15] Podcasting: While “easier” than writing books, it's a heck of a lot more work than meets the ear.[00:21:24] Quality over quantity: 8–10 episodes a year, scarcity as strategy, and building a defensible moat.[00:31:47] “Hard choices, easy life.” — Jerzy Gregorek, calling the FAA 300 times, and why no one copies you when the barrier is insanity.[00:35:32] Dartmouth to Google.org: the Fermi estimation faceplant and not getting the job.[00:37:10] BuzzFeed as graduate school of the internet.[00:40:37] Work for someone else first: My case against starting a company right out of school.[00:47:28] The stolen book: Michelle pulls out a battered 2016 copy of The 4-Hour Workweek and reads her fear-setting chart aloud.[00:51:10] “I've never designed my own rubric of success” — the nightmare, the repair plan, and what Michelle was putting off out of fear.[00:56:59] Practicing poverty: studio apartment, stripped-down life, moonlighting for a year, then the three-month-savings leap.[01:06:58] Kebab-shop destiny: meeting stunt coordinator Steve Brown in L.A. — now he does Avatar and straps Michelle to planes.[01:09:04] Surface area for luck: Bill Gurley, Kevin Kelly's sleeping bag, and Seneca on voluntary discomfort.[01:12:44] Coach, mentor, cheerleader: the three-person Formula One team you actually need.[01:17:20] The art of the cold email — and cold-calling the FBI tip line to meet “The Hollywood Guy.”[01:21:55] Michelle's three-paragraph, six-sentence formula for emails that open any door.[01:26:15] My cold email playbook: the “via” trick, include your damn cell number, and why “Yo, Ferriss” is an auto-archive.[01:36:24] The fake Tim Ferriss Podcast phishing scam: Zoom calls, screen access, and hijacked Facebook pages.[01:40:58] Emailing Hank Green, Brandon Sanderson's unpublished novels, and why your first cold emails are just practice reps.[01:46:37] Michelle's storytelling syllabus: Survivor, Snyder's Save the Cat, and peer review of whatever went viral last week.[01:48:44] The magic of Jeff Probst, and dissecting the bones of storytelling.[01:53:12] John McPhee's red-ink writing class at Princeton.[01:58:38] Six Thinking Hats broke Michelle's pessimism; Radical Candor taught her how to give feedback.[02:07:20] The slinky org chart: Seven full-timers that balloon to 50 for a shoot, then compress right back.[02:21:21] Scope creep, saying no to big checks, and why Michelle has never hit creator burnout.[02:30:34] My No Book teaser: 850 pages on renegotiating commitments and getting back on the wagon.[02:33:31] The Mindy Kaling manifesto: @MindyKalingFan, The Office, and shattering expectations for Indian women in entertainment.[02:40:38] Wishlist shout-out: Norland College, where Mary Poppins meets Secret Service.[02:42:48] Episodes Michelle would pay to relive.[02:47:40] Episodes Michelle would pay to skip.[02:52:15] Seven marathons, seven continents, one week.[02:57:10] Free Solo, Alex Honnold in the creepy van, and things both of us would never do.[03:00:38] Books gifted most: Radical Candor, The Great CEO Within, and Adam Grant's Originals.[03:01:21] Michelle's billboard.[03:02:45] A primetime Emmy run and parting thoughts.*For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsorsSign up for Tim's email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday.For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts.Discover Tim's books: tim.blog/books.Follow Tim:Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferrissYouTube: youtube.com/timferrissFacebook: facebook.com/timferriss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timferrissSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Brooke and Tyler are joined by three musically gifted souls to break down their 16 creations for each of the Shards of Adonalsium. Plus the world-premiere of Retribution's never heard before track! At Dragonsteel Nexus 2025, the Music Meets Magic panelists went above and beyond to create multiple musical tracks for each of the Shards and several combinations. We wanted to share their creations with all as well as get their insights on how to create music for fantasy worlds. #AllSpoilers Follow the gang: Follow Shamaz and check out his new podcast Universal Vibrations Follow Krishna Patel Follow Paul Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

Únete a nuestro canal y apoya a FUERA DE SERIES: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFNyyACx7XbgZ4-S4jzNnGQ/join Bienvenidos a Fieras en Juego, el podcast donde hablamos de videojuegos, tecnología, gadgets, libros y cultura geek… sin filtro y con ganas de debatirlo todo. En este programa repasamos toda la actualidad del momento: la subida de precio de PS5 y el impacto que puede tener en la industria, el nuevo tráiler de Stranger than Heaven de los creadores de Yakuza, los despidos masivos en Epic Games y el cierre del estudio Dark Outlaw Games por parte de PlayStation. Además, analizamos la situación del hardware con la escasez de memoria y cómo Sony ha llegado incluso a suspender la venta de tarjetas SD y CFexpress. También traemos nuestras impresiones de Tomodachi Life: Una vida de ensueño, uno de los juegos más peculiares de Nintendo, y comentamos novedades como el regreso de Yoshi en Switch 2. En tecnología, repasamos los nuevos portátiles gaming ASUS ROG Zephyrus G14 y G16, los gadgets de Belkin para creadores de contenido y la sorprendente decisión de OpenAI de cerrar Sora. Y en cultura geek, hablamos de libros con las novedades de NOVA y Norma Editorial, el universo de Brandon Sanderson con Blightfall, la recomendación de Play Nice y la polémica reflexión del autor de The Witcher sobre el precio de los libros.

We've been on a bit of a mini World Models series over the last quarter: from introducing the topic with Yi Tay, to exploring Marble with World Labs' Fei-Fei Li and Justin Johnson, to previewing World Models learned from massive gaming datasets with General Intuition's Pim de Witte (who has now written down their approach to World Models with Not Boring), to discussing the Cosmos World Model with with Andrew White of Edison Scientific on our new Science pod, to writing up our own theses on Adversarial World Models. Meanwhile Nvidia, Waymo and Tesla have published their own approaches, Google has released Genie 3, and Yann LeCun has raised $1B for AMI and published LeWorldModel.Today's guests have a radically different approach to World Modeling to every player we just mentioned — while Genie 3 is impressive, its many flaws demonstrate the issues with their approach - terrain clipping, noninteractivity (single player, no physics/no objects other than the player move), and maximum of 60 second immersion. Moonlake AI (inspired by the Dreamworks logo) is the diametric opposite - immediately multiplayer, incredibly interactive, indefinite lifetime, capable of MANY different kinds of world models by simulating environments, predicting outcomes, and planning over long horizons. This is enabled by bootstrapping from game engines and training custom agents: In Towards Efficient World Models, Chris Manning and Ian Goodfellow join Fan-Yun in explaining why their approach to efficiency with structure and casuality instead of just blind scaling is sorely needed:SOTA models still show physical or spatial understanding glitches, such as solid objects floating in mid-air or moving “inside” other solid objects.If the goal is to plan for the next action, how often is a high-resolution pixel view necessary for modeling the world? Our bet is that there is a disproportionately large share of economically valuable tasks where such detail is not required. After all, humans with a wide variety of sensory limitations have little difficulty doing almost everything in the world. Furthermore, for a large number of purposes, describing a scene or a situation in a few words of language (“the car's tires squealed as it cornered sharply”) is sufficient for understanding and planning.Experiments also show that humans only partially process visual input in a top-down, task-directed way, often making use of abstracted object-level modeling. In almost all cases, partial representations combined with semantic understanding are sufficient.…If the goal is to facilitate the understanding of causality in multimodal environments, then the world model—whether it is used in the virtual world or the physical world—must prioritize properties such as spatial and physical state consistency maintained over long time periods, and an ability to evolve the world that accurately reflects the consequences of actions. That's what Moonlake is building.Game engines are the right starting point abstraction to efficiently extract causal relationships, and building the interfaces and community (including their new $30,000 Creator Cup) to kickstart the flywheel of actions-to-observations.We were fortunate enough to attend their sessions at GDC 2026 (the Mecca of Game Devs), and were impressed by the huge variety and flexibility of the worlds people were building with Moonlake's tools already! Live videos on the pod.Full Video Pod on YouTube!Timestamps00:00 Benchmarking Gets Hard00:47 Meet Moonlake Founders01:26 Why Build World Models03:12 Structure Not Just Scale05:37 Defining Action Conditioned Worlds07:32 Abstraction Versus Bitter Lesson14:39 Language Versus JEPA Debate20:27 Reasoning Traces And Rendering Layer37:00 Gameplay Over Graphics38:02 Fiction Rules And World Tweaks39:15 Code Engines Beat Learned Priors41:10 Diffusion Scaling Limits43:23 Symbolic Versus Diffusion Boundary46:14 Platform Vision Beyond Games50:24 Spatial Audio And Multimodal Latents54:23 NLP Roots Hiring And Moon Lake NameTranscript[00:00:00] Cold Open[00:00:00] Chris Manning: Think this whole space is extremely difficult as things are emerging now. And I mean, it's not only for world models, I think it's for everything including text-based models, right? ‘cause in the early days it seemed very easy to have good benchmarks ‘cause we could do things like question answering benchmarks.[00:00:20] But these days so much of what people are wanting to do is nothing like that, right? You're wanting to get some recommendations about which backpack would be best for you for your trip in Europe next month. It's not so easy to come up with a benchmark, and it's the same problem with these world models.[00:00:41] Meet the Founders[00:00:41] swyx: Okay. We're back in the studio with Moon Lake's, two leads. I, I guess there's other founders as well, but, sun and Chris Manning. Welcome to the studio.[00:00:54] Fan-yun Sun: Thanks. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having us.[00:00:56] swyx: You've got, you guys have, come burst onto the scene with a really refreshing [00:01:00] new take of mold models.[00:01:01] I would just want to, I guess ask how you, the two of you came together. Chris, you're a legend in NLP and just AI in, in, in general. You're, you're his grad student, I guess[00:01:10] Fan-yun Sun: Actually my co-founder.[00:01:11] swyx: Oh, yeah.[00:01:12] Fan-yun Sun: I should give a lot of credit to my co-founder, Sharon. Yeah. She was, she was actually working with Professor Fe Androgyn and then she ended up working with, Ron and Chris Manning here.[00:01:22] And then, so I got connected through to Chris initially, actually through my co-founder,[00:01:26] What is Moon Lake?[00:01:26] swyx: what is Moon Lake? What, what is, actually, I'm also very curious about the name, but like why going into world models?[00:01:33] Fan-yun Sun: So I was working a lot. With actually Nvidia research during my PhD years on essentially generating interactive worlds to train reinforcement learning agents or embody EA agents.[00:01:44] And then there's two observations. One in academia and one in industry. An industry like folks at Nvidia are actually paying a lot of dollars to purchase these types of interactive worlds, whether it's for the sake of evaluation or training the robots, or policies or models. And [00:02:00] then, in academia, same thing is happening.[00:02:02] And more specifically, when I was actually working with Nvidia on the synthetic data foundation model training project, we were actually generating a lot of these synthetic data and showing that, hey, you can actually, these synthetic data are actually as useful as real world data when it comes to multimodal pre-training.[00:02:16] But then, like I said, there's a lot of dollars being paid out to like external vendors or, or like. Other folks to manually curate these types of data. It was very clear to us that, okay, on our way to, let's call it embody general intelligence models need to learn the consequences behind their actions, which means that they need interactive data and the demand for those types of data are growing exponentially.[00:02:38] But everybody's sort of thinking about it from a pure, say, video generation perspective or something else. But we feel like the true actually opportunity is actually building reasoning models that can do these things, like how humans do these things today. So that's a little bit on the genesis of Moon Lake, and I think the reason I got into world models was partly.[00:02:59] A philosophical [00:03:00] take of the on the world where I like, believe the simulation theory and stuff like that. But on the other, on the other hand, it's really just like, oh, like there's an opportunity there that I feel like nobody's doing it the way I think should be done.[00:03:10] Structure, Not Scale: The Vision[00:03:10] Chris Manning: I can say a little bit about that.[00:03:12] Yeah. So of the overall goal is the pursuit of artificial intelligence and most of my career has been doing that in the language space and that's been just extremely productive. As we all know, the story of the last few years, I don't have to tell about how much we've achieved with large language models, but, uh.[00:03:31] Although they have been extremely effective for ramping language and general intelligence, it's clearly not the whole world. There's this multimodal world of vision, sound, taste that you'd like to be dealing with more than just, language. And then the question is how to do it. And despite, a huge investment in the computer vision space, right, as the research field computer [00:04:00] vision has been for decades, far, far larger than the language space, actually.[00:04:05] I think it's fair. Say that, vision, understanding sort of stalled out, right? You got to object recognition and then progress just wasn't being made right? If you look at any of these, vision language models, it's the language that's doing 90% of the work and the vision barely works. And so there's really an interesting research question as to why that is and at heart, the ideas behind Moon Lake are an attempt to answer that, believing that there can be a really rich connection between a more symbolic layer of abstracted understanding of visual domains, which aren't in the mainstream vision models, which are still trying to operate on the surface level of pixels.[00:04:50] swyx: I think one of your blog posts, you put it as structure, not scale. Is that, a general thesis?[00:04:57] Chris Manning: Yeah. Well, scale is good too.[00:04:58] swyx: Yeah. Scale is good. Too[00:04:59] lot,[00:04:59] Chris Manning: [00:05:00] lots of data is good as well and scale, but nevertheless, you want the structure Yeah. To be able to much more efficiently learn.[00:05:07] swyx: Yeah. The other thing I really liked also is you put out an example of what your kind of reasoning traces look like.[00:05:12] Right. Which you would distill is the word that comes to mind. I don't even think that's a good, good description, but it would involve, for example, geometry, physics, affordances, symbolic logic, perceptual mappings, and what, what have you. But like that, that is the kind of example that involves, let's call it spatial reasoning, role model reasoning as as compared to normal LM reasoning.[00:05:35] Yeah.[00:05:36] Defining World Models vs Video Generation[00:05:36] Vibhu: But also like taking it a step back. So how do you guys define world models? A lot of people see okay, you can do diffusion, you can do video generation. But, you guys put out quite a few blog posts. You put out a essay recently, we can even pull it up about efficient world models. You have a pretty like structural definition here, but for the general audience that don't super follow the space, right.[00:05:55] What's, what's the difference in what we see from like a video generation model to [00:06:00] a world gen A simulator? How do you kind of paint that last[00:06:02] Chris Manning: year? Yeah, so I think this is actually a little bit subtle because, people look at these amazing generative AI video models, SAWA VO three, one of these things, and they think Genie, they think, oh, this is amazing.[00:06:17] This is we've solved understanding the world because you can produce these generative AI videos, but. The reality is that although the visuals do look fantastic, those visuals actually are accompanied by an understanding of the 3D world, understanding how objects can move, what the consequences of different actions are, and that's what's really needed for spatial intelligence.[00:06:49] So I mean, a term we sometimes use is that you need action condition, world models. That you only actually have a world model if you can predict, [00:07:00] given some action is taken, what is going to change in the world because of it. And in particular, that becomes hard over longer time scales. So if you're simply, trying to.[00:07:12] Predict the next video frame. That's not so difficult. But what you actually want to do is understand the consequences, likely consequences of actions minutes into the future. And to do that, you actually much more of an abstracted semantic model of the world.[00:07:32] The Bitter Lesson & Data Abstraction[00:07:32] swyx: Yeah, the question comes where you want to have more structure than is available in just predicting the next token.[00:07:41] And typically, well, let's, let's call it the experience of the last five years has been that is just washed away by scale, right? So what is the right middle ground here that, you don't ignore the bitter lesson, but also you. Can be more efficient than what we're doing today.[00:07:57] Chris Manning: One possibility [00:08:00] is, look, if we just collect masses and masses and masses and masses of video data, this problem will be solved.[00:08:11] Under certain assumptions that could be true, but there are sort of multiple avenues in which it could not be true. The first is what's really essential is understanding the, the consequences of actions producing an action conditioned world model. And if you are simply, collecting observational video data, which is the easy stuff to collect, when you're sort of mining online videos, you don't actually.[00:08:41] Know the actions that are being taken to see how the video is changing. And so if you are never collecting directly actions and you are having to try and infer them from what happened in the observed video, that's not impossible. But it's very [00:09:00] hard and it's not really established that you can get that to work at any scale yet.[00:09:05] And so there's a lot of premium on collecting action condition video data, which is part of why there's been a lot of interest in using simulation so that you can be collecting data where you do know the actions, which isn't quite limited supply, but there's also in the limit of as much data as you could possibly have.[00:09:28] Maybe the problem is eventually solvable, but. Even though we collect huge amounts of text data is always at a great level of abstraction, right? Language is a human designed, abstracted representation where there's meaning in each token and it's representing and abstraction of the world, right?[00:09:51] As soon as you are describing someone as a professor, and as soon as you are saying that they're condescending, right? These are very [00:10:00] abstracted descriptions of the world. It's not at what you're observing as pixel level, and to get to that kind of degree of abstraction, starting from pixels is orders and magnitude of extra data and processing.[00:10:14] And so, although, we absolutely want to exploit, get as much data as possible, use the bitter lesson. Nevertheless, if there are ways in which you can work with five orders of magnitude less data than people working purely from pixels, you're gonna be able to make a lot more progress, a lot more quickly.[00:10:34] And that's the bet here. And so you could just say that's only wanting to be able to, do it more efficiently, do it more quickly, do it more cheaply. But I think it's actually more than that, I think. One should be making the analogy to how human beings work at one level. You know? Yes, we have these high [00:11:00] resolution eyes and we can look and see a scene like a video, but all of the evidence from neuroscience and psychology is that most of what comes into people's eyes is never processed.[00:11:13] Right. That you are doing fairly fine ated processing of exactly what you're focusing on. But as soon as it's away from that of yeah, there's another guy over there that you've sort of only processing top down this very abstracted semantic description of the world around you. And so, that's what human beings are doing.[00:11:33] They're working with semantic abstractions and so. I think it is just the right representation. ‘cause we also have other goals we want to be able to do, real time worlds. So that means there's a limit to how much processing you can do and we want to do long-term planning and consistency. And again, that favors abstraction.[00:11:55] I mean, I guess there was actually a recent. Blog posts that [00:12:00] came out from our Friends of physical intelligence and, they were sort of heading in the same direction they were saying Oh, to the pay[00:12:06] swyx: pay model.[00:12:07] Chris Manning: Yeah. Yeah. To maintain a long term memory of what's happening in the world. So we can, do longer term we actually storing text of what is, been happening in the world.[00:12:19] Right. It is not such a successful strategy of trying to keep it all at a pixel level.[00:12:24] Vibhu: And yeah, I mean, you can see it in video models like that Temporal consistency. We're at a scale of train on, all the video data we have. We have it for maybe 30 seconds, a few minutes. That's not the same as a game state played for half an hour.[00:12:37] Right. I thought you guys break it down pretty well. You have a, you have a blog post about. Building multimodal worlds with an agent. I dunno if you guys wanna talk about this. This is one of the things I read, I[00:12:48] swyx: thought, yeah, it's the thing I talked about with the reasoning chain. Yeah.[00:12:51] Vibhu: So there's like different phases to this.[00:12:53] It seems like it's more of an agent, a scaffold, very different approach than just, type in a prompt and you, you don't have the same consistency. [00:13:00] It also, like, for people that are listening, I, I would highly recommend reading it. It breaks down the problem in a different light, right?[00:13:06] So like, what do you need to consider when you're talking about video, like world game models, right? How would, what do you need to consider? What are the factors? What are the elements? What's the state? So I don't know if you guys have stuff to talk about for this one.[00:13:19] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah. Actually, I wanted to add on a little bit Yeah.[00:13:22] On our previous point, which is just like, change topics so quickly. I, I do feel like sometimes people confuse like, oh, like we're taking an an, an method with abstraction. That means they don't believe in bitter lesson. Like that's just false, right? Like we are believed is a bitter lesson. But then I feel like the question that we always discuss is like, what is the right abstraction level today?[00:13:42] The analogy I like to make is like, let's just say we can encode and decode. Represent all of images, videos, audio and bytes. Then the most bitter lesson approached is to train a next byte prediction model as opposed to the next token prediction model where it's just like, okay, it's natively multimodal, can just, but it's like, yeah, like [00:14:00] to, to Chris's point, it's like the scale and computing you need to achieve that.[00:14:03] So that's why we always come back to like, okay, what is the most efficient way to do it? And reasoning models to the point of this blog post is a showcase of like, Hey, we're actually just like reasoning about the world and reasoning about. The aspects of the world that CAGR that matter for me to learn what I want to learn from this role model.[00:14:21] swyx: Yeah, it's like you're improving the en encoder of whatever you're, trying to model. And like a better representation would just represent the important things in less space. Yeah. Which would just be more efficient.[00:14:33] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah.[00:14:34] swyx: So yeah, I, I, I fully agree that it is not, antagonistic to, bitter lesson.[00:14:38] I do wanna wanna mention one more thing. Is there any philosophical differences with the JPA stuff that, Yun is working on? I gotta go there. You, you, you, you're, you're imagining like some latent abstraction. I'm like, okay, fine. Let's, let's talk about it, right? Like it's an elephant in the room.[00:14:52] Chris Manning: Yeah.[00:14:53] JEPA & Philosophical Differences with LeCun[00:14:53] Chris Manning: There are philosophical differences. Jan Lacoon is a dear friend of mine, but. [00:15:00] He has never appreciated the power of language in particular, or symbolic representations in general. Yarn is a very visual thinker. He always wants to claim that he thinks visually and there are no words, symbols, or math in his head.[00:15:21] Maybe that's true of yarn. It's certainly not the way I think. Um. But at any rate, the world according to yarn is the basic stuff of the, the world and of intelligence is visual and language is just. This low bit rate communication mechanism between humans and it doesn't have much other utility and it's far inferior to the high bit rate video, that comes into your eyes.[00:15:53] And I think he's fundamentally missing a number of important things [00:16:00] there. Think of this evolutionary argument looking at animals, right? That the closest analogies, the things with chimps, right? So chimpanzees, have fairly similar brains to human beings. They have great vision systems, they have great memory systems.[00:16:18] They've got, better memory than we do of short term memories. They can plan, they can build primitive tools that, humans. Massively ahead in what we understand about the world, what we can plan, what we can build. And essentially what took off for us was that humans managed to develop language and that gave a symbolic knowledge, representation, and reasoning level, which just, okay if this sort of vaulting of what could be done with the intelligence in brains.[00:16:59] So the [00:17:00] philosopher Dan de refers to language as a cognitive tool and argues that, humans unique among the creatures in the world have managed to build their own cognitive tools and language is the famous first example. But other things like, mathematics and programming languages are also cognitive tools.[00:17:21] They give you an ability to. Think in abstractions, in extended causal reasoning chains. And that allows you to do much more. And we use that for spatial representation and intelligence and planning and gameplay as well. So we believe, and this is, underlying the specific technologies that Moon Lake is making, that symbolic representations are powerful.[00:17:50] And you want to use that in your understanding of the visual world when you want a causal understanding, when you want to maintain long-term [00:18:00] consistency and prediction. And as I understand it, that's just not in ya Koon's worldview. So I think that's the fundamental philosophical difference. Then there's the specific model.[00:18:11] He's been advancing jpa, that's a reasonable. Research bed is a direction as to, to head for building out a model of the visual world. To my mind, it's sort of one reasonable research bed. It's not really established. It's the best one that everyone should be following,[00:18:32] swyx: at least developed at scale, at Meta.[00:18:34] But it's not just vision, right? Like, I mean, JPA is a, just joint admitting prediction can be applied to anything really. And people have done it. The argument is that there is a latent representation or that is probably more. Suited to the task, then why not let machines do it for us instead of predefining it at all?[00:18:50] And isn't something like a JPA shaped thing the right answer? And if not, why not?[00:18:55] Chris Manning: So I think there's a part of jpa that's right, which is [00:19:00] you do want to have a joint. Embedding that gives you a consistent model of the world. And Jan's argument is you can never get that from auto aggressive language models ‘cause they're sort of left to right churning out one token at a time.[00:19:22] I guess this is where we're the research arguments of the field, I'm not actually convinced that's right. ‘cause although the token production is this auto aggressive, process that's heading, left to right, I guess don't have to be left to right. But anyway, in sequence of tokens we could have right to left Arabic.[00:19:40] But although that's true, all of the weights of the model that are internal to the transformer, they are a joint model of the model's understanding of the world. And so I think you can think of the weights of the model as a form of. Joint representation, [00:20:00] and therefore it is plausible to think that could be the basis of a world model, which avoids, ya's objections.[00:20:10] swyx: I think I follow, and obviously that would touch on what Moon Lake eventually ends up doing as well. Right. Like, which it's hard to tell because you put out the end results, but we don't know the inputs that go into it. So it's, it's, that's something that we have to figure out over time.[00:20:25] Vibhu: Yeah. I mean, I guess this kind of breaks down some of the outputs. Do you wanna walk us through it?[00:20:31] Reasoning Traces & Interactive Worlds[00:20:31] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah. So this, this really just walks us through the reasoning traces of like, okay. So that just say, if we wanna build a world in this context, it's really just a game demo that, that shows the, the variety of interactions that this world model can build.[00:20:45] And yeah, it's really just a reasoning traces of like, okay it prompted to create a bowling game. Like how did it achieve what you saw? That level of causality, interaction and consistency, right? So yeah, this is almost just like a, an example of [00:21:00] like a reasoning traces. Very[00:21:01] swyx: detailed.[00:21:01] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah.[00:21:01] Vibhu: Very, very detailed.[00:21:02] You gotta you don't even realize it, right? Like when a video is generated, what happens when a ball strikes a pin, right? So first, like you, there's audio in that, like audio triggers happens, score increments, the world changes. Like pins have to start dropping. There's a timer that goes on. It's just like very similar to how now we're used to reasoning for language models.[00:21:20] There's a whole state of what happens. So geometry, physics, all this stuff. And then yeah, there's kind of that single prompt. So asset, ation all this stuff. It's like a, it's a nice view to see what's going on.[00:21:32] swyx: I think Sun is also too polite to point out that, both like Google's genie, demos as well as world Labs is marble, do not have interactive worlds.[00:21:41] Fan-yun Sun: That's the benefit of having a reasoning model, right? Like, because you can, you can say, oh, like maybe in this particular context, I want to learn how to bowl. And then you can say, okay, then what is it important when it comes to learning how to bowl? Okay, maybe it's like I need to understand the, the basic of like, physics and I want to throw it over [00:22:00] them.[00:22:00] I wanna know that when I, when it resets it's a new game. So I know that yeah, basically, you know to pick up the ball, you know that ball's gonna cause the pins to fall down. You know that what's important to this particular bowling game is to score and you know that the score corresponds to the number of pins that fell down.[00:22:19] So it's just like, if it's a model that sort of knows what it. Looks like, knows what a bowling game looks like, but doesn't actually allows you to practice over and over again and to understand that, oh, like what it takes to actually get a high score. Then it sort of doesn't actually allow you to learn what you set out to learn within the world model.[00:22:38] And I think this is really just one example of showing like the advantages of the approach that we're taking over most the, let's call it the zeitgeist, is today, when people talk about clinical role models,[00:22:51] Chris Manning: right? So it sort of seems like the question to ask when there's a world model is.[00:22:58] Can I not [00:23:00] only just wander around the world and look at the beautiful graphics, can I interact with the objects in the world and see the right consequences of actions?[00:23:11] Vibhu: And you also understand what the consequences would be if you do something right. So it's not just like, okay, there's one thing if I pick it up, something will happen.[00:23:19] But, there's 50 options and I know I can expect, I can infer what would happen if I do any of them. Right. So very different when you can actually see it play around with it.[00:23:28] swyx: There,[00:23:28] Beyond Unity: Cognitive Tools for World Building[00:23:31] swyx: there's two cheeky elements of that. I mean, the, the, the I guess, less ambitious one is, let's really establish for listeners, why is this fundamentally different than writing Unity code, right?[00:23:40] Like just creating a model to translate a prompt into Unity code[00:23:44] Fan-yun Sun: so there is an underlying physics engine. Yeah. In that sense, there's some overlapping things to Unity, but the way we think about it is like physics engine. Tools or code are cognitive tools like borrowing Chris's term, right? Like tools [00:24:00] that the model can employ as means to an end.[00:24:04] So today maybe you say, okay, in this particular context we care about physics, we care about the long-term causality consequences. Then yes, we deploy it, employ physics engine, and then maybe tomorrow we say, okay, we're we're training that. Just say drones where we only care about really fluid dynamics and the visual aspect of the world.[00:24:25] Then, then yeah, maybe we don't actually, the model actually doesn't have to use a physics engine. Or maybe it employs other types of representation or physics engine to achieve the task. So yes, writing code for Unity is sort of similar to a tool that our A model can employ, but our goal is for a model to take a representation conditioned reasoning.[00:24:46] Approach or process.[00:24:47] swyx: Yeah,[00:24:47] Fan-yun Sun: internally.[00:24:48] swyx: Yeah. Using these things as just like general two calls. Right. Which I think is very interesting. The other more ambitious one is, some kind of recursive element where it becomes multiplayer, right? Like here, there's a single player element, you're not [00:25:00] modeling any other people involved.[00:25:01] And that is a whole other thing.[00:25:04] Fan-yun Sun: But in fact, we can really do multiplayers. Oh yeah, okay. I haven't seen any double situations. So just actually just like prompt our, our model to say, Hey, like configure to multiplayer. Then it'll do like this. You'll be able to configure multiplayer[00:25:16] swyx: great[00:25:17] Fan-yun Sun: persistency database for you.[00:25:18] Easy. Yeah.[00:25:19] Vibhu: So what, what are like some of the current limitations in where we're at? So there's one approach of like, okay, scale up video predictors. Obviously there's data issues. With approaches like this, is it data constraints? What are like the next steps? Is it real time? Like, so there's one side of, write an agent to write Unity code, but okay, I want to be streaming a game real time.[00:25:38] I want to have characters being also like agent, but where, where do we kinda see this scaling up? Right?[00:25:44] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, there's definitely a data constraint. Like the more data, the, the better. This reasoning model can almost basically act as humans to like operate a variety of tools and softwares to build whatever's necessary.[00:25:57] And then there's a sort [00:26:00] of fidelity constraint, which we're actually solving with another model, which we can talk about later. But it's like, it's not as easy to get to photorealism with the approach that we're taking. But we think there are better solutions to that, which is we can dive into later.[00:26:14] Later.[00:26:15] Vibhu: The one one thing you note here is it's a diffusion model, right? So there's, there's a few approaches, diffusion caution, splatting, yeah, so Ry diffusion model, you guys wanna[00:26:25] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah.[00:26:25] Vibhu: Introduce,[00:26:26] Fan-yun Sun: yeah, totally.[00:26:26] Rie: Neural Rendering & Skins for Worlds[00:26:26] Fan-yun Sun: So within our world modeling framework, we think there are two models that we train, right?[00:26:31] Like, there's the multimodal reasoning model that we just talked about that essentially handles. Mainly the, the causality, the persistency and logic determinism of the world. And then RY is our bet on saying, okay, like while all those model, can take care of all these things that we just talked about, it's limitations compared to existing, say, video models, is that it doesn't have as high of a pixel [00:27:00] ality right off the gate, right?[00:27:02] And EE is to say, Hey, we can actually take whatever persistent representation that we generate with our multimodal reasoning model and learn to restyle it into photo photorealistic styles or arbitrary styles you want. So this model is almost to say, Hey, I'm going to respect the persistency and interactivity of the world that you created, but my only job is to make sure that its pixel distribution is close to what we want.[00:27:29] Vibhu: Yeah.[00:27:30] swyx: Great example right there. You kept the KL divergence.[00:27:33] Fan-yun Sun: Oh. Where,[00:27:34] swyx: no, no. I mean this, this is a, a classic like, how you don't stray too far from the source material as you, you kept the kl, which is Oh yeah. Kind of cool. Yeah.[00:27:43] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah.[00:27:44] swyx: I mean, and the[00:27:44] Chris Manning: difference is, and I mean sun was pointing at this, where sort of saying it's in one way a more difficult path, but a better path that, typically the diffusion models are producing the whole scene and it looks lovely, [00:28:00] but there isn't spatial understanding behind it, which is allowing for the real time graphics gameplay, the spatial intelligence, understanding the consequences of worlds where this is, taking a path where it is assuming an abstracted semantic model of the world's state.[00:28:20] And then the diffusion model is then being used on top of that to produce the high quality graphics.[00:28:27] swyx: Is there an intended practical, or business use for this, or is it like a, like a demonstration of capabilities?[00:28:34] Fan-yun Sun: We actually believe that this is gonna be the next paradigm of rendering. So it's gonna replace how ra raizer, it's gonna replace DLSS today because it not only has these pixel prior that's learned from the world such that you can literally play any game in photo realistic styles, which is a lot of people's desire when they do GTA, right?[00:28:51] Like,[00:28:51] Vibhu: all the mods, all the people adding perfect lighting and all this.[00:28:54] swyx: So[00:28:54] Fan-yun Sun: skins[00:28:55] swyx: for worlds, let's call it[00:28:56] Fan-yun Sun: skins, let's call it skin for worlds. I,[00:28:58] Vibhu: it's also like, you can call it skin, you can call it [00:29:00] customization. You can play it how you want, right?[00:29:01] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, exactly. And I think another thing that we really pointed out specific specifically in this blog is the programmability of it, right?[00:29:09] So what this means is that this render historically render is always a derivative of the game state, right? You're saying, oh, here's the game state, I'm rendering out a frame. But here I'm saying actually this render can be part of the gameplay loop. I can say something along the lines of, if upon getting 10.[00:29:26] Apples, I'm gonna, my weapon of choice, my bullet's gonna turn into apples. And that's, that's possible because we can say, we can basically dynamically have certain game state trigger the, the preconditions to the render such that the rendering is now part of the game loop too. One thing is to just say, okay, it's, it's, it's the appearance.[00:29:47] But the second thing is also to say there's these novel interactions that are possible because this render now has actually priors of the world.[00:29:57] swyx: It is up to the artist to figure out what to do with it.[00:29:59] Fan-yun Sun: It [00:30:00] is up to the creators. Yes.[00:30:01] swyx: Yeah.[00:30:01] Fan-yun Sun: And I also think that's actually another big argument that we're making and the reason that we're picking, taking the bet we're baking is that a lot of the times, whether it's for embody AI gaming, like you want a layer where human can inject their intentions.[00:30:15] So, for example, let's just say in the context of gaming, it's obviously like my creative intent, but maybe in the context of embodied ai, it's like, oh, like I take this foundational policy and I want to actually fine tune it to deploy in my house. So you want to almost say, inject, have a layer where human can say, oh, here's the distribution of things I want to create to achieve my goal.[00:30:35] And I think 3D graphics as it as it is today, is basic, the layer for people to say, Hey, what do I care about in this world? And it allows, basically human intent to be expressed in these worlds much more explicitly and distributionally as opposed to just saying, Hey, I'm gonna generate like, arbitrary.[00:30:54] And it's like just prompts,[00:30:55] swyx: it's one of those things where like, I think you, you're going to build up a series of models, right? [00:31:00] This is just one of, this is probably like the highest utility or heaviest, frequency one, I don't dunno what to call this. Where like you Yeah. You can immediately drop this in on any game and you don't need anything else that.[00:31:10] That you guys do. But, I, I could see, I could see that I think the, the human intent is something that people are not even used to because we're so used to static worlds or, worlds that just don't react, or, I don't know. It's, it, you're kind of blowing my mind right now with like, I'm, I wonder if you've talked to people at GDC Hmm.[00:31:27] And what are they gonna do with it?[00:31:30] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah. Now the stance that we take on this front is like, we're not gonna be more creative than our users to ship[00:31:35] swyx: it out.[00:31:35] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah. But we wanna make sure that we're building things in a way that really allows them to express their intent.[00:31:41] swyx: The thing that you said about, here's the distribution that I want.[00:31:45] I think text may be too low of a bandwidth to. To really demonstrate, because I, I, there, I'm, I'm probably just gonna want to drop in a bunch of, reference assets and then you can figure it out from[00:31:58] Vibhu: there. But you probably wanna do a, a mixture of [00:32:00] both, right? Like you throw in a few images. I wanted this style.[00:32:02] Yeah. I want it to look like this. So it, it's, it's a mixture, right?[00:32:05] Chris Manning: I, I think it's a mixture. I mean, yeah, I mean there's clearly a visual component of this, and it's not that, everything can be text. ‘cause of course you want to give a visual look, but there's also a massive amount of giving the overall picture of the look of the world and the behavior of things that you can express in a few words of text.[00:32:32] And it be very time consuming and difficult to do via visual means. So I think, yeah, you want a combination of both.[00:32:40] Evaluating World Models[00:32:40] Vibhu: So one question I kind of have is, how do we go about evaluating world models? So like, there's many axes, right? One is like, okay. I have preferences. How well do we adhere to prompts? One is the simulation.[00:32:50] One is like do things, is there core logic that's broken? So coming from we know how to evaluate diffusion, there's fidelity, there's [00:33:00] stuff like that. But what are some of the challenges that most people probably aren't thinking about?[00:33:04] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, I think this is like a great question and probably one of the hardest questions in role models because like, I think it always comes back to what are you building this role model for?[00:33:13] And depending on your end goal and purpose, the evaluation should defer. So in the context of games, then the most direct way of measuring is how much behind are people actually spending in this world that you create? And if your goal is to say, for example, in the context that we just talked about, like, hey, deploying, deploying action in body, a agent, then your, your end.[00:33:33] Metric is then, okay, after training in these worlds that you generate how robust it is to when you actually deploy to the target environment. But then, it's, it's hard to measure these end metrics. So today people have like these proxy metrics that I call that basically try to measure what we really care about, which is the end metrics, but then frankly it's different for every use case.[00:33:57] Yeah,[00:33:57] Vibhu: which seems like quite a challenge, right? Like in [00:34:00] in language models or video models. Image models, your benchmarks are proxies, right? People aren't actually asking instruction, following tool use questions. They're proxies of how well it will do downstream. But for this, so like, should teams, should companies have their own individual benchmarks outside of games?[00:34:16] If you think of stuff like, okay, video production, movies, stuff like that, that also want to use world models. Should, should they sort of internalize like. Their own proxy. Is this something you guys do? Where, where does that connect[00:34:28] Chris Manning: go? Yeah, I think this whole space is extremely difficult as things are emerging now.[00:34:35] And I mean, it's not only for world models, I think it's for everything including text-based models, right? ‘cause in the early days it seemed very easy to have good benchmarks ‘cause we could do things like question answering benchmarks and could you answer the question based on these documents and the various other kinds of, do pieces of logical reasoning or math.[00:34:58] But again, these are sort of. [00:35:00] And there were sort of visual equivalents of things like object recognition, right? For these small component tasks. These days so much of what people are wanting to do also with language models is nothing like that, right? You're wanting to, have an interaction with the language model and get some recommendations about which backpack would be best for you for your trip in Europe next month.[00:35:25] And it's not the same kind of thing, right? And it's not so easy to come up with a benchmark as to does this large language model give you an effective interaction for guiding you in a good way for shopping, right? So, and it's the same problem with these world models. So if we take the game design case, well success is that a game designer can.[00:35:57] Produce what they are [00:36:00] imagining in a reasonable amount of time. And that's really the kind of macro task. That's a very hard thing to turn into a benchmark and I think a lot of this is actually going to turn into people walking, walking with their feet. Right? I mean, I guess that's what's happening, at the large language model level, right?[00:36:23] When people are choosing to use, GPT five or Gemini or clawed, individuals are trying out these different models and deciding, oh, I like the kind of answers that GT five gives me, or no, I feel like I get more accurate detail from Claude, right?[00:36:43] Vibhu: It's a lot of[00:36:43] Chris Manning: vitech, a lot of people just using it.[00:36:45] It's vibe checking. I realize that, but it's actually whether. People feel it's giving them utility in what they want. Right.[00:36:52] Vibhu: And the the interesting thing there is like a lot of people prefer the visual, right? This looks pretty, which is not the objective of what this is [00:37:00] for, right? It's if a, if a game designer is working on something, they care about the game engine, right?[00:37:04] The state, it's, it can look whatever. You can fix that up later. Or you can have a really good game state and you can quickly edit it to 20. 20 different versions, like Keep State,[00:37:14] Chris Manning: right?[00:37:14] Vibhu: So[00:37:14] Chris Manning: that's a really important distinction, for and for speaking to Moon Lake strength, right? So, yeah, great visuals are lovely to look at for a few seconds, but gains are really all about the concept, the game play.[00:37:33] And a lot of the time that doesn't actually even require great visuals. I mean, there are just lots of very successful games which have relatively primitive visuals, and there are other games where people have spent millions producing photo realistic, visuals, and the game sucks, right? So, keeping those two axes apart is really important in thinking about what's important in a [00:38:00] world model for different uses.[00:38:02] swyx: This conversation is reminding me of some game review and fiction discussions I've, had in my sort of non-AI related life. Some, for some people might know Brandon Sanderson, who's a very famous, fiction author, had, is is a big game reviewer. And he, he's a big fan of video games where you change one thing about a normal what you might assume about, about the world.[00:38:22] For example, Baba is you, I don't know if you might have come across that, where like the rules change as you play the game. And also like where, you can do things like reverse time selectively or like change gravity selectively. And I think this is also reminds, reminds me of other kinds of world models that are created by authors.[00:38:38] Where Ted Chang is, is my typical example where he'll take the world that, you know today, but change one thing about it and, but then create a consistent world based on that. Which is long-winded answer of me to, of. For me to say is it's it easy to create alternative roles that don't exist, but you change one thing and then let's, let's run a whole bunch of people through it to see if it works.[00:38:58] Chris Manning: My first dance will [00:39:00] be, that seems a lot easier and more conceivable to do using Techn technology like Moon Lakes than with some of the other world models out there, where the sun can actually make it happen. I'll let him give a second answer.[00:39:15] swyx: If I guess for you, you're constrained by the game engine tool, right?[00:39:18] Like at the end of the day, that's the, that's the thought, partner that you have. If I ask for something where like, if it never is allowed to reverse time or if gravity only ever works one way, then well that's it. But sometimes gravity might change,[00:39:33] Fan-yun Sun: but it's a lot easier to change with code as opposed to a model that is learned primarily on data of.[00:39:42] Real world and virtual worlds that are, I guess, like for example, junior, like there's actually trained on a lot of real world data and a lot of virtual gaming data, and it's hard to say maybe it's easier to say, okay, I wanna change the visuals in like the time period of, of the world. Like, you can't change gravity, for [00:40:00] example.[00:40:00] Vibhu: I feel like you can to light bounds, right? Everything comes down to like, code is a better way to execute it, but the models aren't that diverse and creative, right? You can say, okay, make gravity slower. It can do that, but it's limited to your representation of how you text it out, right? Like they're, they're only gonna do a few iterations, whereas programmatically, if there's a game engine under the hood, you can kind of go wild, right?[00:40:22] So one of the, I dunno, one of the limitations of most models is that they're very overtrained to one style. Right. And extracting diversity is pretty difficult. At least that's something we've seen.[00:40:35] Fan-yun Sun: I mean, are there examples you have in mind where you Existing models? Yeah. Like it would be easier to do that's not using code.[00:40:43] Certain types of creative intent or like transition state transitions,[00:40:47] swyx: Clipping, other models, other wo models are very good at clipping through things. Clipping my, my, my legs clipping through a rock because it's, it's just, it's just bad. [00:41:00] Like, you would have to struggle very hard with your stuff to actually make that happen.[00:41:04] Which I think is maybe a topic that you actually prepared on, Gian Splatting versus, the other stuff.[00:41:09] Vibhu: Yeah. Yeah. It's just for those not super familiar, right? There's a, there's gian splatting, there is diffusion. Like what works, what scales up. I feel like in February when Soro one came out the blog post was literally titled like,[00:41:21] swyx: you bring it up.[00:41:22] You never know.[00:41:23] Vibhu: World, world, video generation models are world simulators. It's super bitter lesson pilled. Yeah, emer, a lot of it is emergence, right? So, not to go through their blog post, basically their whole thing was as you scale up all this consistency, all this stuff just kind of solves, it's a very simple premise, right?[00:41:41] They just scaled up, diffusion, and from there, this is, this is Feb 2024, how much can we, it's already been two years, which is basically five years. How much more in AI time do we need to just scale up or, or do we hit a data cap? But I think we already talked about this a lot, right? Like this is back to the beginning discussion of what's [00:42:00] appropriate for the time.[00:42:01] And that seems like your approach, right?[00:42:03] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah. The point I'm trying to make is that they're very many, many different types of world simulators and like having a world simulator that can produce pixel coherency is very, very useful for games and, marketing and all these things, but it's not as useful as people think when it comes to causal reasoning.[00:42:25] When it comes to embodied ai. Yeah, like it this title is true. We're not saying that it's, it's like, not a great world simulator, but actually in the blog that we, we, we, we wrote, the bet is more so that there are gonna be disproportionately large share of value of real world tasks or, and virtual tasks where high resolution pixel fidelity is not needed.[00:42:47] Yes. Video models have their values.[00:42:50] swyx: Yeah. This is at the absolute limit of my physics understanding, but one example that comes to mind is basically having to solve like ba the equivalent of a three [00:43:00] body problem in a deterministic Well, where the video models, which is approximated good enough. Yeah.[00:43:08] Right. Like there's, there's some point at which your approach kind of runs into like the you now have to simulate the world. Please, thank you very much. And like you're trying to do that, but only to the extent that the game engine lets you and like game engines cannot do some things.[00:43:23] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, no, I mean, I think the interesting or more technical question here actually is where do you draw the boundary between.[00:43:32] What's handled with, let's say, diffusion prior and what, when? What's handled with symbolic priors?[00:43:38] swyx: Yes.[00:43:38] Fan-yun Sun: Okay.[00:43:38] swyx: Okay.[00:43:39] Fan-yun Sun: Right. Let's go there. Because this, this boundary can actually be fluid. Like I think like maybe what you're trying to get at is like, okay, people are saying pixel prior, everything. But what we're saying is, okay, there's a boundary that we draw where this is where we think provides the most economical value for the domains and things that we care about today.[00:43:59] [00:44:00] And I actually do think, and it's something that we do internally all the time, which is like, okay, given new equations that we learn or new elements of the world and that we, we learn, or maybe some other knowledge that we acquire in the process of developing the models. Should we still be maintaining this line exactly as it is today?[00:44:22] Or should we move it a little bit left or a little bit right? Right. Like sometimes that we realize that, oh, like maybe customers or, or folks like want certain things that are better handled with preop pryor as opposed to, symbolic prior than,[00:44:34] swyx: yeah. Your, your skin thing is a, is a example moving it, right.[00:44:37] Yeah.[00:44:37] Or left. Yeah,[00:44:37] Fan-yun Sun: exactly.[00:44:38] swyx: I dunno what the, the left right is.[00:44:39] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No the, the model.[00:44:42] swyx: Yes.[00:44:42] Fan-yun Sun: Actually we have a few iterations of them. They're actually at slightly different[00:44:45] swyx: I know boundaries. You should, you should do that. That's a cool dimension to show.[00:44:49] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah.[00:44:50] swyx: Is quantum mechanics the diffusion prior of our world?[00:44:55] Right. It's like that's the boundary of classical mechanics versus quantum. Right? Like, that's it. At one [00:45:00] point God plays dice and the other point doesn't.[00:45:02] Fan-yun Sun: I dunno if Chris, you wanna say it, but I think, I think generally I feel like physics is better with symbol P priors.[00:45:08] Chris Manning: Even quantum physics.[00:45:09] Fan-yun Sun: Even quantum physics.[00:45:11] swyx: Yeah. This is starts against to, MLST territory is, is what I call it, where, he, he likes to get philosophical. We, we we're quite friendly.[00:45:18] Vibhu: I mean, we need to get, we need to get singularity. I heard some of that.[00:45:23] swyx: No, no, I think that is actually really helpful and man, I just want you to productize this like, as a product guy, I'm just like, oh, also[00:45:32] Vibhu: a gamer, I[00:45:33] swyx: wanna, it's like a researcher, like, it's cool.[00:45:35] Like this is a, the theoretical, like you have a very good, I don't know, like the way of thinking about these things, but I just wanna see you like, express it. I do think like your fundamentally things when, when you leave open new tools, like, okay, use, use human intent to incorporate it into how you render.[00:45:52] Artists are gonna have to take like two to three years to figure out what to do with this. And you just don't know.[00:45:57] Chris Manning: Right. But I think, this is, [00:46:00] gives a much more approachable and controllable world for the society, which is the beauty, the beauty of, NLP, that that will enable it to be adopted and used.[00:46:10] And we are very hopeful about that. Yeah,[00:46:13] Fan-yun Sun: yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are, we are very focused actually on commercialization in the sense that like we do, we do really believe in the data flywheel app approach. Yeah. Where, we put this in the hands of the creators and the users and then they will teach us when, what capability our model should improve.[00:46:27] And that's why we are, we are actually, like products and beta[00:46:31] swyx: Yeah. Focusing on gaming. What, what's like the adjacent thing to gaming[00:46:34] Fan-yun Sun: embody adjacent, basically. So maybe we can, we can I'll maybe start with where we see the platform in three years. Yeah. Which is like, okay. The users would tell us what they want to achieve.[00:46:45] The end goal could be, Hey, I just, I wanna make something to teach my kids the value of humility. Or it could be, Hey, I wanna fine tune my, drones to be really good at rescue situations. I could be vacuum robots. I want to like train [00:47:00] my manipulation or like vacuum robot to be very robust to my office, right?[00:47:04] But it's like, whatever it is, scenario robust to[00:47:06] swyx: my office[00:47:07] Fan-yun Sun: or like navigate very robustly in my office. But then it's like, whatever end goal that you want, our role model will say, okay, given what you want to achieve, let me generate a distribution of environments such that I can train and evaluate whatever it is you want.[00:47:24] Yeah. Right. Maybe for the purpose of games, it's just the end simulation and that's the end product for certain policies. It's like I can train it within these environments and then help you see where your policy is failing or not. Yeah. And then, so I think,[00:47:37] swyx: so in that case, much more of a training tool.[00:47:40] Than in other training[00:47:41] Vibhu: evaluation? Both. Right?[00:47:43] swyx: Sure. Same. Same thing.[00:47:43] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, same thing. I think it's just this role model that allows people to train any policy that can act in any multimodal environments.[00:47:51] swyx: Would it be harder to reward hack? Is there an angle here where it is harder to reward hack? Like it's just, I'll just put it generally because I think that's a, that's obviously a key [00:48:00] problem that a lot of people face when in training agents in these environments, and I don't know, can you solve it?[00:48:07] Chris Manning: I think not necessarily. To the extent that there's a mis specified reward that. It seems like it could be hacked in a more symbolic world or in a more pixel based world. I dunno if Sun's got any thoughts, but I don't think that's really being solved.[00:48:26] swyx: The other thing that comes to mind is just you could just build a better sawa as a video generator model, right?[00:48:31] Because then you, you would move the diffusion, side a bit more further to the right. I think if I got the directionality correct. And that's it.[00:48:40] Vibhu: It's better on domains, right? Like on consistency over now, or for sure it exists versus something doesn't, right.[00:48:46] Chris Manning: So[00:48:46] swyx: yeah. Yeah. Is[00:48:49] Vibhu: is a question more like, like[00:48:51] swyx: I'm just riffing on like, how do you, what can you build, you know?[00:48:54] Oh, with the stuff that you have. I do think that the minor, the academic does go immediately to training [00:49:00] and in eval evaluation, but like art tends to take unusual directions. Like you might end up,[00:49:06] Chris Manning: okay. Yeah. But the question is, can you use this piece of software to develop compelling gameplay and. I don't think you can take SOAR and produce compelling gameplay, right?[00:49:19] If you want to have a world that you can wander around in a bit, you are good. But what are your abilities to have gameplay mechanics implemented the way you'd like them to be and to have things stay, with the long-term history of your gameplay that influences future actions. I think there's just nothing there for that.[00:49:39] swyx: Yeah, I do tend to agree. I, I'm just trying to sort of test the boundaries. I would also make the observation that as AAA games industry has developed the line between what is a movie and what is a game has blurred. And you, you, you do end up basically producing a two hour movie as part of your game.[00:49:57] Fan-yun Sun: No, honestly, there, there's so many actually [00:50:00] applications in adjacent markets that our world model can go into. Yeah. But yeah, it, it's sort of fun to riff, riff on. Although on the execution side, we we, we need to stay focused with like, okay, what are the capabilities we want to unlock over time?[00:50:11] And there's a roadmap for that. But yeah, if we're just riffing on sort of like the possibilities, I feel like, whether it's endless Yeah, it's like classic[00:50:18] swyx: and the embedding for a possibility and endless in my mind, it's very close. Yeah. I do wanna, focus on one, like weird choice. I, I don't know if it's weird.[00:50:28] Maybe I'm, I got something here. Audio, right? You could have just said no audio And audio in my mind has a lot of recursion, whereas in video you can just do recasting and that's much computationally much simpler. Audio just seems way harder. I don't know if you wanna just comment on just the special 3D audio.[00:50:46] Problem. Did you really have to do it? I guess you do to be immersive, but like a lot of people do treat it as like, well, you just stick a, a tt S model on top of[00:50:57] Vibhu: Well, there's a lot more to game audio than [00:51:00] just speech. Right. It's not just[00:51:01] swyx: tts. Yeah. Tts. S Fxt, GM Spatial in my mind Echoes[00:51:06] Chris Manning: Yeah.[00:51:06] swyx: And reflections.[00:51:07] And I, I don't even know what's, what else? I don't know what, what other problems in this space.[00:51:13] Fan-yun Sun: Yeah, I think this point like the, it's sort of a more, more pointing to the benefits of using an game engine as a tool that's available to the model, right? Because like part of the spatial audio is from the code that is underlying the simulation.[00:51:32] And while we do give our model access to other types of audio models as. Tools.[00:51:39] swyx: None of them would be spatial, I think.[00:51:41] Fan-yun Sun: But that's exactly sort of more 0.2. We're giving our model an abstraction or a suite of tools such that it's able to achieve that. And you can argue that sort of spatial is like a, like a emergence out of the, the tools that we and abstraction that we provide to the agents.[00:51:59] And I think that's the beauty of [00:52:00] this, this, this approach is like there's a lot of things kind of like how human's built technology and they're like Lego blocks that build on top of each other. And it's the same thing here. There's gonna be things that sort of just sort of emerges from being able to put these things together in like combinatorially interesting ways,[00:52:14] Chris Manning: right?[00:52:15] So this integrated audio model exploits the understanding and semantics of the Moon Lake world, right? And whereas in general for the Gen AI video models. There's no actual integration across to audio at all, right? That someone might stick some music or stick a soundscape or whatever else on top of their video.[00:52:44] So it's not a silent video, but they're in no way connected into a consistent world model. And there's nothing that's okay. An action is happening in the video. Therefore there should be a sound that's [00:53:00] coming from this part of the visual field.[00:53:03] swyx: Yeah.[00:53:03] Vibhu: Is that different than Sora too? Does it not have audio?[00:53:06] Not to say it's not like[00:53:08] swyx: amazing[00:53:08] Vibhu: isn't a spatial[00:53:09] swyx: audio.[00:53:09] Vibhu: It doesn't,[00:53:10] swyx: no. I've played around it with it enough. It just sounds like someone put an 11 laps voice on top of it and just tried to do the lip sync.[00:53:18] Vibhu: Oh, yeah. I've seen, okay. Generate a dog at the beach and reactions to big wave and move[00:53:23] swyx: around.[00:53:23] It's definitely like, so have the dog, have the dog move away from camera and see if the, the song goes down. It doesn't. ‘Cause they don't have facial audio.[00:53:32] Fan-yun Sun: We do want to basically like we, our moral model, like the one we're training is basically towards the goal of having a combined latent representation across all these different modalities.[00:53:42] Right? Such that it can like reason across these different modalities. So for example, if I close my eyes and like you play a video, you play a sound of like a car skidding away from me. I almost can like, visually extrapolate that trajectory in my mind. And I think that type of capability, we want our model to be able to reason, right?[00:53:59] And that's the reason that [00:54:00] we're sort of taking this multimodal reasoning approach. It's like we want this combine late in space that can[00:54:05] swyx: Yeah. Oh, you said late in space. We like that. Here we have to play the, the bell Every time that someone says late in space, no, you gotta train daredevil one. Where you, you, you, it's only audio, but you have to work out.[00:54:15] Where everything is.[00:54:19] Cool. I I think that that was, that was about it for our Moon Lake coverage. I do think that we have like a couple of, Chris Madden questions on, on IR and, just any, any other sort of attention topics or n NLP topics.[00:54:31] Vibhu: Okay.[00:54:31] swyx: Go ahead.[00:54:32] Chris Manning's Journey: From NLP to World Models[00:54:32] Vibhu: Well, no, I mean, yeah, it's just fun. We talked a bit about how you guys met, but you basically, you, you were like the godfather of NLP per se, right?[00:54:39] You spent the whole career from early embeddings, early early attention. You did 2015 attention for machine translation, everything. You, you had information retrieval, so RAG before rag, we just wanna shout that out and admire a lot of that. Right? So what prompted the switch over to world models?[00:54:56] How, how'd all that come about?[00:54:58] Chris Manning: To some answer it [00:55:00] is, the enthusiasms and creativity of students, but there's a bit of a history there, right? So, yeah. So clearly most of my career has been doing stuff with language and how I got into research was thinking, ah, this is just so amazing how humans can produce speech and understand each other in real time.[00:55:21] And somehow they managed to learn languages from their kids. How could this possibly happen? And so, yeah, starting off I was very focused on language, but as it sort of got into the 2000 and tens, I started, going, I'd been working on question answering, and then I started to get, interest in visual question answering.[00:55:42] And that was an area where it was very noticeable. That the visual understanding was bad. Right. These were the days when like, it sort of seemed like there's almost no visual [00:56:00] understanding. You were just getting answers that came from priors. So, if you asked how many people are sitting at the table, it'd always answer two regardless of how many, how many people you could see in the picture.[00:56:11] And so it seemed like, oh, these models actually aren't able to get semantic information outta

Brandon Mull joins Brandon Sanderson for this special episode! Mull talks about his upcoming books and the Fablehaven movie, while Sanderson goes into the struggles of writing a screenplay. From movies to games, you'll have plenty of entertainment on this episode of Intentionally Blank!Fablehaven Movie Backerkit - https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/haven-film-llc/fablehaven-the-movie-book-collectiblesWant to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Intro: Spirit week, Guinness chocolate sourdough bread, making Turkish Delight was not fun and Lemon Angel Pie.14:24: New garden plans, a new chicken coop, new chicks, and another injured chicken.23:53: A definition of faith: longing for a better city, and when your kids do things of the Lord unbidden. Abiding City - YouTube Adorning the Dark30:43: New World Watch feature and the importance of kids learning Apologetics.35:54: Wes Huff in Diary of a CEO. Keller's cultural moment is over.41:38: Living an apologetic lifestyle and consistency with kids.48:10: The fear of losing your sense of confidence in knowledge and truth.52:40: Molly's habit of Jane Austen night: Mansfield Park, J.R.'s review of latest Brandon Sanderson series he's reading, book adaptations, and the problem of building out old stories.1:01:33: Show Close  Get full access to Too Busy to Flush at www.toobusytoflush.com/subscribe

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells discuss Brandon's recent shoulder surgery as well as other medical adventures they have had in there lives.Want to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

This week we have guest Delia Jordan to talk with us about the book Wind and Truth by Brandon Sanderson. The book itself has some really great representation which leads us into a conversation about Sanderson himself, who is a devout Mormon. His opinions on GLBTQIA+ definitely differ from those of his church so it creates an interesting conversation indeed!

Brandon Sanderson sits down with his younger brother Jordan Sanderson. They discuss technology they grew up with , what it's like having a famous brother and who installed the Mickey Mouse virus in high school. Back the Campaign Now! - https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/dragonsteel/hoids-storybook-collectionWant to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Brooke and Tyler give their instant reactions to Isles of the Emberdark since it is now available to everyone. Dusk and Starlings stories interweave to give fans the most in-depth Cosmere lore from any of the secret projects and we've been dying to talk in depth about it. #AllSpoilers Support this podcast by becoming a Patron on Patreon Original music by David Gruwier. "Radiant" by David Gruwier.

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells sit down to talk about Brandon's deal with Apple TV for his film rights. From the path that Brandon took to Hollywood to next steps, this is a closer look at the movie deal.Back the Campaign Now! - https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/dragonsteel/hoids-storybook-collectionWant to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com

Brandon Sanderson, Dan Wells, and Donald Mustard III plan how to break the Youtube algorithm. And also do a Q&A answering questions from past videos, like whose the Tolkien of action movies and their opinions of Stranger Things. Back our campaign now! — https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/dragonsteel/hoids-storybook-collectionWant to send me something to open?Dragonsteel EntertainmentATTN: AdamP.O Box 698American Fork, UT 84003Get your Wheel of Time updates here with the Bound and Woven newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/brandonsanderson/eye-of-the-world-campaignStay up to date by following my newsletter: https://brandonsanderson.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=7d056bb7596a3e617f82004b2&id=fa68f14db0Interested in signed books and swag? Check here: https://www.dragonsteelbooks.com/You can also follow me on:Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsandersonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrandSandersonTwitter: https://twitter.com/BrandSandersonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandsanderson/?hl=enTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/mistbornbrandonFrequently asked questions: https://faq.brandonsanderson.com