Podcasts about so zach

Speaker 1 (00:03):Welcome to the Solarpreneur podcast, where we teach you to take your solar business to the next level. My name is Taylor Armstrong and went from $50 in my bank account and struggling for groceries to closing 150 deals in a year and cracking the code on why sales reps fail. I teach you to avoid the mistakes I made and bringing the top solar dogs, the industry to let you in on the secrets of generating more leads, falling up like a pro and closing more deals. What is a Solarpreneur you might ask a Solarpreneur is a new breed of solar pro that is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve mastery. And you are about to become what's going on. SoSpeaker 2 (00:43):Solarpreneurs, we are back with another episode. I'm Taylor Armstrong. I'm your host. And I am super excited here today because we have the man that knows all about investing tax strategies. And as my personal financial coach, we have Mr. Zach Bassett on the show. So Zach, thanks for hopping on with us today. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah. And I was just telling you off the recording here, I've been hearing you all over the place. Um, I think by now people kind of consider you the go-to financial guy for especially door to door reps. I know you've coached, uh, I don't know, a hundred. How many, how many door to door reps would you say you've coached and helps with taxes by now? Oh God, it's got it's in the thousands. I mean, I've had over 10,000 door to door clients. Um, so really I tried to coach every one of them, but, um, as far as like my new coaching program right now, I'm coaching about, about 310 door to door guys right now.Speaker 2 (01:42):Wow. Okay. Yeah. Incredible, incredible one. Um, so if you haven't heard of Zack, you need to start following them because, um, I think my struggle on mute mine probably speak for most of the door-to-door reps is, um, I think we're notorious for blowing our money super quick and I'm getting ready to get rid of it. I know, uh, Danny Pessy, I was in his coaching program. He was just talking about how he blew his money on trips to Europe, um, spending tens of thousands going on Europe trips and, and he he's making, I know hundreds of thousands, but if guys like Danny can blow their money quick, I can't imagine guys that are making less than that. Um, blown it even quicker.Speaker 2 (02:26):So yeah, some awesome stuff you share. Um, but yeah, what we, what we want to get in today, I guess before we get into the ERC stuff, Zach, how did you, uh, why did you guys decide to focus on like door to door reps and specific and how did you kind of get into that side of helping door to door reps specifically? That's a good question. So, uh, you know, I started out doing this, um, I, I did door to door 15 years ago, so that was pretty young. Um, actually it was a little longer than I lose trackSpeaker 3 (03:00):Of time. I'm getting old, but, um, yeah, I was about 18. Went out, did door to door for Atlas. Um, they did a direct TV and dish network so we could switch people over and it was one of the easier sells of all time and door to door. Um, it actually broke the system because, um, like the tomb brothers, people have heard Mark and Luke tune their legends and door to door, but they sold so many accounts and, and kind of broke this like two too big of conditions. So that company went bankrupt. And, uh, so, but during that summer I noticed like all these people make really good money and nobody knew about an LLC S Corp and that strategy. So I was, I right away kind of thought, well, that's a good area. Maybe I could, um, focus on that next. I wanted to go into accounting.Speaker 3 (03:57):My dad's an accountant. Um, both my brothers are tax accountants. So I thought that might be kind of cool, um, and were competitive. Me and my brothers, you know, we both own all three of us own tax firms and, um, it's a competition, you know, it feels like, um, we're always kind of butting heads and seeing who can get to the do the most fastest, but, uh, it was actually me and my little brother, we started JB accounting and tax. It was a golf 10 years ago, eight years, nine, 10 years ago. I'm not sure, but we started JV, accounting and tax. And we, we really focused only on door to door in the Provo. He started JB accounting, Logan. Then he brought me on and made me, um, an equal partner out there and in Provo, Utah, and, uh, I was in charge of the door to door office.Speaker 3 (04:48):We had 40 clients. So it was, it was crazy. We bought this, not bought at least this huge space for 10 years. Um, because we believe in what we were doing so much, uh, 40 clients can't pay for even, you know, a fifth of that lease. So we, we, um, we knew we were going to do big things, went out and, uh, I went out and picked up, um, went out and picked up 800 door to door clients in the first summer. So I do kind of like a summer sales program myself, or I go out and present it as many offices as I can, one or two in the morning and then one and two at night, bring pizza at night. If I have to, whatever I have to do to get them to meet with me.Speaker 4 (05:31):That's what got me into door to door free pizza.Speaker 3 (05:34):Exactly. As long as you offer pizza or donuts in the morning.Speaker 4 (05:39):Yup, exactly.Speaker 3 (05:42):So that's how I get it. Yeah. And I just picked up a bunch of guys and it just kind of blew up from there. Me and my brother, we, uh, we ended up butting heads. We were at about 2,800 clients and we both just had different visions. Um, so we decided to go separate ways. And that's when I started COLS I met Mason Warn my partner. He's, he's honestly amazing, um, and perfect for this company because he knows nothing about taxes. And honestly, he's learned quite a bit, but he's a door to door sales guy. He was a regional at, at APTIV. Hmm. Um, so I just said, Hey, look, come do this with me. I promise. You'll do really well. Um, cause there's no salespeople and in the tax industry, you know? And, uh, so I was able to get him to come and see the vision and we fit became 50, 50 partners.Speaker 3 (06:37):And now we're up over 3000 door to door clients and yeah, my coach over 300 of them, we've got over a hundred book, keeping clients. And our goal is, is to reach 10,000 plus clients by the end of the year. Wow. Yeah. So a lot of people think that's like a bad thing. If we get too big, how are we going to service them? But that's the difference between us and other firms, the bigger we get, the more the service we'll get, because yeah. I'm putting everything back into the company and the new systems. That's why our packets all electronic this year, instead of the paper, like annoying 2019 packet that we have, um, it's, everything's getting better and we're hiring some of the top talent in the nation. SoSpeaker 2 (07:26):Yeah, no, and that's what impressed me a lot about you guys is I know you're growing a ton, but I still ask you guys questions probably every week or two about taxes or about this year, see credit and we're in talk about, and I get a response always within a day and, and I know you even have gotten busier, but I noticed you got, you know, assistant to help out with all the texts and stuff like that. You'll be getting, so I'm sure you're, I'm sure you're like, all right. If I have a hundred, Taylor's asking me questions, I need to have someone to help me out.Speaker 3 (07:59):Yeah. I have no choice there, but what's cool about that. I can have her handle anything that's secretarial. And, and if someone texts me, Hey, look, I'm thinking of buying a car. Um, what's the tax outcome or, um, the tasks I can do. I think of the word active that the car buying the car will have and, uh, and, and all answered those questions. So it's really nice. She's awesome. She, she's better than me at helping out with the secretarial stuff anyway. So it kind of works really well.Speaker 2 (08:34):Yeah. No, that's awesome. And yeah, what's cool about you guys. I think I told you, they said door to door con, but I feel like you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think you guys kind of were the first doing taxes specifically for door to door people. I remember seeing you guys year after year after year, and then just as last year or maybe the last two years, it seems like every other booth door to door con is a, is a tax guy now trying to do it to do taxes people.Speaker 3 (09:02):Well, a lot of guys kind of take the idea, you know, but yeah, it was, it was me and my little brother, we brought it to the table. Um, nobody was doing it like we were before. There were some guys there's, you know, Dave Brown doing it before there was bill Koehler guys like that, but that they never, um, never put the, uh, even closer to same effort in doing everything perfectly legal for their guys. And then also doing every single thing possible, including insurance, you know, health insurance, car insurance, life insurance, um, 401ks IRAs, five 29 plans, um, and on and on and on coaching. And, you know, we do it all here and, uh, the most you get at another, uh, door to door tax place is your taxes done and, and that's it, you know?Speaker 2 (09:52):Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I never knew, yeah. I love how you guys combine it with the financial side of things and do some financial coaching too, which we'll get into. Um, but yeah, so we'll kind of shift gears, Zack. I wanted to, um, ask you about the ERC stuff and you can tell us about it. But, um, what's crazy is I guess, just to give a little background, the ERC, Zack will explain it by gots. I think it was 10,000, my first time filling it out and then I'm guess it's available this year. But, um, the reason I say this is because I had talked to other tax guys, um, actually my brother, he uses another tax guy. Um, and he asked him about these ERC thing and he didn't even know what he's talking about. He's like, yeah, I don't know how they do that. And so I'm thinking, dang, does that guy like Donald Trump's number or something? How is he getting this year?Speaker 3 (10:50):Her person. Um,Speaker 2 (10:52):But yeah, Zach, can you tell us about this ERC and kind of what it is and how you guys actually get it for people?Speaker 3 (10:59):Yeah. So this is my favorite topic right now. Um, because what it's done for us is this things like this are what set us apart, right? Um, any tax firm can do the LLC escort strategy. Nobody can do that strategies. We can, they'll tell you that much there's expenses. We take that other people don't, things like that. Um, but on top of it, if there's a, if there's some, some strategy, any set strategy possible, we're going to know about it. And we're going to tell the clients about it through an email. You know, we'll do a quarterly email that says, look, check out these new things. If you're interested, watch this video and we'll have a video on it. Um, the ERC came up from one of my, uh, one of my employees. He said, look, the, in the new cares act, I've been researching it night and day he's.Speaker 3 (11:51):He was a super stud, um, he's not with us anymore, but, um, he, he brought it to the table. I said, look, that sounds amazing. Um, it's your start your own department. I'll give you a commission on it. And he, he ran with it and it ended up exploding to what it is today, where we've got over. I don't know, $30 million for our clients and COVID relief funds. And our goal is, is to get well over a hundred million by the end of the year. Um, so what it is is it's called the employee retention credit. And what a lot of people don't realize is that as an LLC S corporation, you by law have to have one employee. So that employee is yourself. If you are just a single member, LLC, S Corp, let's say you're not married or just single. Um, you are the employee and you're the owner.Speaker 3 (12:50):So if you didn't do a W2 for last year, but you had an escort, then you're essentially breaking the wall. So what may, what's good about that? That means we can go back and we can amend and do the W2 that you should have done with the reasonable wage that you should have by law done. And then you can apply for this ERC. So if you have a, uh, say a 10 K wage, you can get up to a 10 K benefit, um, meaning that, you know, your everyone's already going to have a 10 K wage, no matter what, even if they didn't do a wage last year, they ended up doing it on the tax return through something called the Meisner method. And so they ended up paying the taxes on that 10 K well now with the ERC, you have all that, those taxes covered by the ERC.Speaker 3 (13:43):Plus you get a check, the check is up to 5,000. If you're single and then, um, 5,000 more benefit in a tax credit, if you're single. Okay. So 10,000 bucks guys, that's like for a lot of you, if you make $20,000, how big of a deal is that that's half your summer right there, or half your year on the doors, like take all those away. And that's how much we're going to get. Yeah. Not to mention that savings on just the escort, which will be a couple thousand as well. So if, yeah, if you're what it is, you have to have a delay or so you have to have went through a two week period last year where you were unable to do your job unable, to unable to sell because of COVID-19. Um, you could have been sick for two weeks or maybe there was a mandate for two weeks.Speaker 3 (14:34):I know in April pretty much the whole us was shut down. So I've yet to talk to, well, I talked to a couple people that all they do is like forecasts and they didn't qualify. But other than that, it's like, everybody else is qualified because they went through a week period where they had a mandate not to go out. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and then there's tears, right? So that's the first tier. If you meet that, then you're going to get the 5k. If you're married and you're like me and you believe your wife's an employee of your company, then you'll get 10 K start to start. Um, and then if you have kids and they had to miss daycare, it'll go up to 7,500 at single and like 16, 17,000. It's married. And then if you were sick for two weeks, whether even if you're not sure if it was COVID, but you were sick for two weeks last year, then, um, and unable to work, then it's going to jump up again.Speaker 3 (15:39):Um, yeah. So depending on these little criteria, um, your check will go up and up. That's awesome. Yeah. So that's awesome. But there's even more to it. Um, that that's just DRC one, which is a 20, 20 credit there's ERC. Um, there's ERC two, which has all four quarters this year. So you can get at each quarter of 2021 and it's more so instead of it being five to 10, it's seven to 12.5. So yeah. And, and yeah, you have to meet the qualifications, but for last year, it's super easy to meet those qualifications for this year. It's a little bit more difficult, but for anyone that just started their business, um, that's what I'm going to talk about it. Door to door Fest is that it's most likely I got to get it passed off by the lawyers, but 99.9%. Sure. Right now that if you started your business this year in 2021, you didn't backdate or anything like that, then you're going to be guaranteed to get this cares act, um, tax credit. And it it's going to be a lot bigger. I think you end up getting 15 to 25,000, um, 15 K is guaranteed for anyone that started their business this year. Wow.Speaker 2 (17:07):What about if you started it like last year? It's just a,Speaker 3 (17:11):There's the, it's the possible seven to 12. Okay. But it's not guaranteed. Um, I don't know why it's just the cares act rules, you know, they, they have to flip parameters on it and yeah, they just wanted to give a break to anyone that starts a business this year, because it's a little unfair to those that started a business this year. They didn't qualify for anything. Um, we're guys that started last year qualified for PPP Eid, L E R C so on.Speaker 2 (17:43):Gotcha. So you're telling me that guys can make well for every quarter. So can make like 40 grand in a year, just, just by getting in his earSpeaker 3 (17:53):Basically. Yeah. Now that means that your gear sucked pretty bad because you, you had to have a two week period of time missed each quarter. Okay. That's not good for business. Um, but there's other ways to qualify too. So what I want you to do is if you listen to this and you're interested is you would just shoot me a text at (801) 452-1900. Cool. Yeah,Speaker 2 (18:26):We'll put that in the show notes, be as pretty incredible. I got to admit, I was kind of skeptical of all of this, just because, like I said, I was hearing from other like tax guys that they had no idea what, even what itSpeaker 3 (18:36):Even was. And thenSpeaker 2 (18:39):The Zack just comes out. Hey, just, just, uh, pay me a little bit and I'll get you this credit. And then mine just showed up in the mail. It was like, I think two weeks ago just got check for, I guess it was for last years. Cause I, I filed nine, I think in December or something few months, but yeah, just show it up. Check from IRS for like 10 grand. I'm like,Speaker 3 (19:00):Wow. So it's like any do to help guys out of it COVID has hurt every single person, um, in the U S in my opinion, you know, it really it's been, uh, it hasn't, I've really disliked the last year. It's what it's done to community. And, um, the whole, you know, to NCAA basketball tournament, to sports, to things that really are important to me in my life, which kind of, I love sports. It keeps me going. And, you know, obviously I love people and a lot of people were affected and so anything we can do to help is huge. Um, yes, there are firm firms out there saying that you can't do the ERC and yada yada yada, well, you can. And we, I mean, we are talking with the IRS. We are, um, we have four lawyers that look into everything for us. So every single thing we do is by the book. And, uh, you know, if we say you can get it, then you can get it. And there's other firms out there doing it for five to 10 times as much of a fee. Yeah.Speaker 2 (20:11):Yeah. And that's, what's crazy. I mean, for how much you got me, it's like, I'm like, I feel like they should be charging way more,Speaker 3 (20:18):But it's like free money. Yeah. That's awesome. And the goal though, is to honestly, um, the more money we put back into the client's pocket, the more, um, like my whole idea is that you might be the next guy to have this huge podcast blow up and explode and you make, you know, you're worth a hundred million in five years from now. And do you need 50,000 to a hundred thousand a year in tax help and, and bookkeeping help? Well, if I, if I was the guy that treated you well and help you get there, you're gonna keep your business with me. Right. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So that's, the whole idea is, is really help people out while they're in that growing stage. And then, you know, get a fair, a fair price from them when they, um, really make itSpeaker 2 (21:08):Yeah. When it's like all the people that you're helping, I'm sure a lot of these people you're helping, um, probably weren't clients, maybe they weren't existing clients already. Now they're coming to you to get help with this. It's like, if you just got them 10 grand that they didn't even know about, then probably pretty likely they're going to come to you for other like financial advice and tax.Speaker 3 (21:31):That's the funny thing that I have other people, like, I love my account and I want to stay with them, but I want to do the ERC. Okay. So he didn't bring the ERC to you. He's not doing that for you. And yet you want to stay with them. That makes that literally. I mean, it makes no sense, right? That means he's not researching. He's not finding all the different things. We've got a team of guys just for research and development. So we're always going to have new things that are amazing, like this. Also our clients get you'll, you'll see an email come through in the next six months with the prospectus for a new property that we are going to buy. We are going to manage, we are going to even occupy and that you can, you can join in, on buying that property, be with us, become a partner with us. So there's not that many, um, tax firms out there that are allowing their clients to get in on investments with them.Speaker 2 (22:27):Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. Do, and yeah, so that's what I kind of want to talk about next is, um, just the financial side of things. Now that people are getting this 10 grand ERC money. Like, um, the other question is our guys just go in and blown that on the down payment for the next car or where you're going to do it. Zack says and get that money growing. So that's what I want to talk about next. Zach is what do you, for people just getting into kind of the investment side of things, um, what do you, what are the kind of, some of the first steps you have people go through? I guess I can talk about some of the things you told me, and I know, um, you have some specific things that you do in your coaching, but just kind of like a bird's eye view, where do you have people start when they're getting this money? They're doing good in door to door, what are they supposed to do with their money,Speaker 3 (23:14):Help it grow? Yeah. So I mean, some of the most obvious things, the number one thing I tell people to do on their, on the list of things to do during the year is a solo 401k through their, through their, um, through their S corporation and to do it through vanguard.com. So, and if I, if you haven't read the book money, master the game by Tony Robbins, that's a must read in my coaching program. Um, because it's going to kind of teach you all the different, a lot of the loopholes in the financial system and why people are getting screwed over by traditional financial advisors. So I have them start with doing, what's going to compound their net worth. Um, when you do a solo 401k, let's say you owe 20,000 in taxes, right? So you've got, let's say you've got 50,000 in cash and you've got 20,000 in taxes.Speaker 3 (24:10):So your net worth is 30,000. Right? Um, if you, if you then take that 50,000, put it into a solo 401k. Now your taxes are zero, or let's say you're married with two kids. Um, now your tax outcome is a $6,000 refund. So your taxes just got $26,000 better. And yet your assets stayed the same instead of having cash, you've got 50 K in a 401k first out that 401k is going to grow and it's going to grow. If it's like mine it'll grow at 14% per year. That's what I've averaged since I was 18. And then, um, and then they just saved all that tax. So they just raised their net worth by $26,000. So instead of having the 30 K net worth, they've now got a 56 K net worth. That's incredible. Yeah,Speaker 2 (25:09):For guys that are like, um, start now, I know a lot of guys are wanting to just dump their money in Bitcoin, Robin hoods, all these things. Um, and that's, I guess kind of like the sexy investment. People want to go and dump it in there, but do you have people, uh, build that up first and then focus on other things like real estate? Or what are the steps that youSpeaker 3 (25:30):Yeah. I'll start with. Well, so you need coaching first off because yeah. Otherwise it's a guessing game as to where to put your money. But, um, so what I do, I start people out from the very easiest of things, you know, I, at first I go over their credit card situation, how many credit cards they should have, how they should spend it, how they should pay it off. Then I go over their car situation, how they should buy cars, how they should pay them off, same with homes. And, uh, you know, the thing is, is minimum payments, minimum down and minimum payments on credit cards. Obviously you want to pay the majority of those off every month and you want to paint a perfect picture for the bank. That's whenever you do anything, you need to be thinking, how is the bank going to see this?Speaker 3 (26:17):Because the goal is passive income, right? I think for everybody, the goal is passive income. Um, so how do you get passive income, the main and best way to do it is through real estate. So we need to paint this picture for the banks that makes them love you. So we get all those things that just talked about. Perfect. And then we make sure they're doing five to 10% of their investment capital into, um, a Robin hood account and acquiring based account. So if you've got a hundred thousand to invest in a year, you're only putting the maximum $10,000 into the Robin hood Coinbase account. Totally. And I also give them a list of the stocks and a list of the crypto to buy also how to buy the crypto. Some of them are difficult. Um, but, uh, then that's going to paint a bit, that's already starting to paint this really nice picture.Speaker 3 (27:14):It shows that all your credit cards are being used, right? Your credit score is above 800 and stays there. And then your cars are being paid down just right. Your home's being paid down just right. You've got, you know, just the right amount into speculative investing. But then, and now you've got 90,000 leftover in your investment capital. So then with that 90,000, first off, if you, if you can do an HSA, you're going to max an HSA out every time. Um, that's a no brainer because it, it is guaranteed not to lose money and it gives you a tax savings. Um, so it compounds your net worth. And then it, once it hits a certain amount, it's actually going to grow, um, without the ability to lose. And so it's nice to have that in your portfolio and mix of zero risk, um, assets. And, uh, so then after that, it's IRA traditional IRA for anyone making over a hundred thousand, um, Roth IRA, if you're under a hundred thousand.Speaker 3 (28:17):And the reason for that is a lot of financial advisors would say, no, do a Roth as long as possible. Well, what good is the Roth going to do me when I've got $20 million in losses as my income each year at retirement, because of all my real estate properties, it's not going to do you good. So getting that tax break up front is what's going to be amazing, um, because that's going to compound and compound like crazy. So you do that. Um, if you guys know the rule of 72, you, you should do that. Anytime. You're thinking about an investment, but it's, you just go 72 divided by the interest rate you want to get. So let's say it's 12%. Well, you're going to get around I think, six and a half, um, at 12%. So that means your money will double every six and a half years. Uh, no, 6.1. So then, um, you'd take, how many years do you have until retirement or your goal year? And if that's, if you're 25, you've got 40 years, so you have to pull from retirement. So now you go 40 divided by six, and you're going to get six and a half. So now you take the amount you want to invest. So let's say it's 20,000. If you put 20,000 into a 401k and it compounds at 12%, for 40 years, you're going to have about two and a half million dollars one time,Speaker 2 (29:43):$20,000 investments. Oh no, yeah, no, every year, 20,000, just one time. So that guy that is smart enough to put 20 K away when he's 25 into a 401k, through vanguard.com and the funds that I am in, they're going to completely set themselves apart. And not only that, they're also going to be able to do several times more rental properties than the guy that's just focusing on doing rentals because of that collateral, because of their portfolio, because of the picture being painted perfectly for the banks, they'll actually be able to do more, have more in retirement, much. I mean, millions born retirement, maybe hundreds of millions more. And then they'll also have hopefully hundreds, if not thousands, more rental properties, then the guy that's just focusing on rentals every year. Okay. Incredible. And yeah, what's really cool is you give out this exact steps and I'm sure your own talk about this in a sec.Speaker 2 (30:48):But when I started working with you, I'd heard, I'd read like the financial books and everything, but sometimes it gets overwhelming hearing all these things and guys like me, we just need like step by step by step. So that's what I really liked the most is, um, after that call, we just did, I think it was about 30 minutes an hour and Zach just breaks it down like this, but then you texted me like the exact steps. Step one, get your credit card figured out step two. Um, thing is, you know, get the exact percentages of the, of the investments and exactly where to put it. Cause that was throwing some money in Robinhood. But I was listening to like friends that didn't really know what they're talking about. There's Oh, go buy this stock, go buy this crypto. It's like going crazy. Hey. And then they, you know, lose money and I didn't really know who it is, you know, a trust, but, but, uh, yeah, so you're really helping people, um, figure it out and yeah, that Tony Robbins book, um, I just read the one.Speaker 2 (31:44):Have you read the new one that came out? I think it's called like unshakeable. Not yet unbreakable. Yeah. It's on my list. Okay. So yeah, that's probably the same thing. I think it's just like a convince condensed version of the money master the game. Cause isn't one, like they are the same, it's just kind of updated, um, updated knowledge on the, you know, how you should think of life and financial perspective. Yeah. Cause yeah, in the book, um, he just talks about how, like, I think he says something like 80 or 90% of financial advisors that are like recommending you. Um, only the things that make them the most money, things like that, universal policy. So if you've been coached by someone selling you a universal life insurance policy guys, it's a hundred percent. You need to not do that. Um, if you are in it, you should just cancel it. Even though paid 10Speaker 3 (32:40):Grand already that just cancel it, lose the 10 K and start putting it into term life insurance and a solo 401k. You will five to six extra money now till retirement compared to doing that IUL that they promised you was so amazing. The commission on that is unreal. And if I was here to just make money off my clients, trust me, I do UL's all day long because if I do a say, I do a 401k for you. Um, and you put a hundred thousand in, I'm going to make less than a thousand dollars a year off of that. If you put a hundred thousand into a, uh, IUL with me, I would make, I don't know, $40,000. Wow. Right up front. Yeah. So backed up front. And, and yet you can't hardly blame these financial guys because it's in their best interest. And, and, and they, they lie to themselves enough to say, I, you Wells are the best before you know, it they're talking like an IUL is three times better than a 401k and a term.Speaker 3 (33:48):It's just the actual facts are that it is absolutely not even close to as good. Yeah. Yeah. So, so definitely that's why it's great to have a tax accountant giving you the financial advice because guys, if you take my advice on these things, I'm not making money off of any of those things. Right. Right. Now, if you do a 401k and then it makes zero off of it, if you go out and do a term life insurance policy, $0 off of it, so on and so forth. So why, why would I put you in the wrong direction? Okay.Speaker 2 (34:20):Yeah. I love it. And so Zach, do you have any stories of people you helped that were, I know Danny's kind of an example of someone you helped coach and is building some longterm wealth now, but do you have any other examples of people who were making like tons of money just like blowing it all and then you started suggesting these things and turn it around. Now they have a ton of properties. Now they're on a ton of success with it.Speaker 3 (34:43):That's the thing. The guys that have a ton of success, they normally weren't blowing their money off debt for nothing. They normally bring their best and doing it, doing an all right job. But what, you know, it doesn't mean that there's guys out there that do blow their money and coaching helps them. So, so much like, dang, he still likes to blow some money. Right. Like, he'll be the first to tell you, but he's also does a lot of investing. And uh, I mean, he's invested in me personally and uh, trusts me very much. And he's one of my favorite people in the world. Honestly, he's a great guy. Um, but uh, the guys, okay. So there's like, um, one of my, one of the guys that I did the taxes for and talked about all the different strategies of cost segregation of accelerated depreciation was Damon Lilly.Speaker 3 (35:40):Um, I'm not Damon, Lily's like, he's got a ton of properties. Um, he's my account. And I can't really say how many are her, he's my client. I can't say how many, uh, properties he has or anything like that. But he's, he's, he's a big dog. He's got a McLaren. Yeah. And then, uh, uh, Chandler Smith. He was a client of mine, um, back four years ago. And he's, you know, I used to talk to him every week and um, told them everything I know. And now he's, I mean, he's not a client of mine anymore is with my brother. But, um, I, he's got to have, I don't know, a couple hundred doors, at least a hundred doors, I don't know, but he's got a ton. Yeah. So yeah, that's the thing that my new company at cos most of the guys that I'm coaching are in this new coaching program, which I just started, um, you know, six months ago. So we'll have to wait and see what happens as far as the coaching goes. But I can tell you before that I was basically coaching people for the last 10 years. It just wasn't called coaching. It was called tax planning.Speaker 3 (36:52):Yeah. So many guys I felt get their first property and I felt them get their 20th property. So the list is very long.Speaker 2 (37:01):Yeah. Well you've already helped me out a ton and hopefully I can be your next success story. And we'll be in, you know, talking in a couple of years, meet withSpeaker 3 (37:09):Multicolor. Well, I would, I would say I, I can, I would bet on it for sure. Yeah.Speaker 2 (37:16):But no, I love what you're doing. And so for people that want to start working with Zach, can you tell them a little bit about what the coaching looks like? Um, it's bringing it out as another thing I thought I was going to be dropping a ton of money and it's going to be this time consuming thing, but literally just a call for an hour. SoSpeaker 3 (37:32):Exactly. Yep. So that's the thing. Um, with me, it's not, Hey, you're going to pay 30,000. Then you get five calls a year and a weekend get away to, they guess it's, it's 150 bucks an hour and you need to do as many as you need to do so in my opinion, at first, most of the time guys need for a year, but there are certain guys that really, really need that. You know, they need a, whether it's their dad or their teacher or their coach, they need that person in their ear all the time. And maybe they don't have their dad around anymore to do it. So, um, that's, they, they use me for that. And those schedules, some of some guys schedule once a week, once a month, it's totally up to them. And uh, obviously their income situations are all different. Some guys make millions of dollars. So it's nothing, each time they call, but, um, for a year is more than enough to like really impact your life. And honestly, even two a year is, is a very good start. But four years is kind of where I say you maximize the benefit. So that's $600 a year for my coaching program. Wow.Speaker 2 (38:46):Yeah. Super cheap. Okay.Speaker 3 (38:51):Go over other pricing to just, you know, to give people an idea of what all the pricing is, right.Speaker 2 (38:57):Yeah. I know. I almost bought before I started working with you, I was like trying to learn more about investments. And I was looking at buying these like investing in property courses that were like, you know, three, four grand for the course. And I'm like, I'm like, all right, I'll just work with Zach and Eric. And that's so easy. Cause you give all the steps and um, like, like you said, it's not something I need to do every couple of weeks. Cause you gave me enough steps. It's going to keep me busy for probably the quarter. Um, I should be going through a quick, as quick as I can. Um, so yeah, super easy for our listeners. So definitely reach out to Zach and um, I know you dropped your phone number, so we'll put that in the show notes for you, Zach. Sure. You'll have some people reaching out and um, just to kind of start wrapping up any anywhere else that people can reach out with you or connect to you. I think you've got a YouTube channel stuff like that, right?Speaker 3 (39:52):Yep. Yeah. I was going to say so. I mean, a lot of the coaching, what I do is honestly available for free. Um, I'd say, you know, 30% of it's free on YouTube and we'll be adding more and more and more videos, including our podcasts, which will start to be, um, either weekly or monthly, just depending on when we can get to it. Um, but yeah, go to our YouTube channel at cos accounting and tax and it's an ampersand sign for and um, check those videos out for super beneficial and then, uh, yeah, contact us. You can Google to us accounting and tax and find the number to see to us the front desk. Or you can just text me at (801) 452-1900. I'm more than happy to get you set up with the consultation. And uh, yeah, I, I mean, I, I want to help as many guys as possible at door to door con I set a goal to help create 10,000 multimillionaires before I retire. So I want to do that. I want to retire before I'm, you know, 55. So I got to get going on it.Speaker 2 (41:02):Yeah. All right, well let's help you out. Yep. So for our listeners guys, if you haven't already gotten this ERC at the very least go get that, but guaranteed, if you get that, you're going to want to work with Zach more because he's going to help you turn that 10 grand into multiple tens of thousands, if you follow his advice. So go start working with them. Um, Zach, thanks for dropping some extreme diet today for coming on the show and we'll see a hopefully yet at door to door Fest soon in some of the other events. And um, yeah. Thanks again. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah.Speaker 3 (41:34):Thanks so much, Taylor. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Have a good one.Speaker 1 (41:38):Speaker 1: (16:17)Hey Solarpreneurs. Quick question. What if you could surround yourself with the industry's top performing sales pros, marketers, and CEOs, and learn from their experience and wisdom in less than 20 minutes a day. For the last three years, I've been placed in the fortunate position to interview dozens of elite solar professionals and learn exactly what they do behind closed doors to build their solar careers to an all-star level. That's why I want to make a truly special announcement about the new solar learning community, exclusively for solar professionals to learn, compete, and win with the top performers in the industry. And it's called Solciety. This learning community was designed from the ground up to level the playing field and give solar pros access to proven mentors who want to give back to this community and to help you or your team to be held accountable by the industry's brightest minds. For, are you ready for it? Less than $3 and 45 cents a day currently society's closed the public and membership is by invitation only, but Solarpreneurs can go to society.co to learn more and have the option to join a wait list. When a membership becomes available in your area. Again, this is exclusively for Solarpreneur listeners. So be sure to go to www.solciety.co to join the waitlist and learn more now. Thanks again for listening. We'll catch you again in the next episode.Speaker 5 (43:07):[inaudible].  

Zach sits down with Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco Healthcare, and they talk about being an executive while Black, COVID-19, and advice around navigating corporate America on this special Monday episode.Connect with Ken on LinkedIn.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and wow. You know, I'm recording this on May 27th, and it's challenging times, right? You know, we talk about Living Corporate being a platform that amplifies and centers marginalized voices at work, and one thing about--I'm gonna just speak from a Black perspective--is that we say that being Black is exhausting, like, that's a common phrase you'll hear, like, on Twitter and stuff. Black people say it, and we'll say it also in conversation, like, "Being Black is exhausting," but the reality is being Black is incredible. It's the systems of oppression, and that's cultural, that's political, that's legal, that's legislative, that's economic, that's judicial, that's... like, these systems come together and make being Black exhausting, and so I come to you today, you know, I'm excited, I'm thankful to be here, and I'm thankful wherever you are. I see you. I appreciate you. You're loved and you're supported. You know, we exist to really be a space, a digital oasis if you will, of encouragement and affirmation, and so we do that on this platform by having real talk in a corporate world. We interview CEOs. We interview executives and entrepreneurs and authors and activists, scholars, authors, all types of folks, really tackling perspectives from marginalized experiences and marginalized identities, marginalized meaning underestimated, underrepresented, under-supported, and we do that every week, and today is no different, y'all. We have Ken Miller. Ken Miller is, man, one of the few CEOs we've had on the platform. I just want to actually get right into it. Ken, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ken: I'm doing fantastic, Zach. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: Oh, man. I have to ask, you know, how are you and your family doing during this time?Ken: As you said, these are very, very difficult times, challenging for all of us. In fact, you know, this COVID-19 crisis has truly impacted my family. Unfortunately I lost my grandmother to COVID-19. I lost my uncle to COVID-19. My mother-in-law tested positive and is now in the hospital. So this pandemic is truly impacting all of us, in particular my family and moreover people of color around the world, and we gotta do everything we can to try to get this thing under control, Zach.Zach: Absolutely. You know, I want to get right into it, right? Every now and then, like, I'll read this huge bio for folks, right, but I really want to give you space to talk to us a little bit about yourself, talk about your company, your background, and just what you want folks to know about you.Ken: Yeah, for sure. I come from very humble beginnings. I grew up in Westchester County in New York City in a very small town called Greenberg, New York, and growing up in Greenberg, we all grew up like family, and I was fortunate enough to have a very tight network of family and friends that really supported me in my development, made sure that I did everything I had to do academically as well as build some decent athletic skills. And I was fortunate enough to go to college. In fact, I was the first member of my family to go to a four-year university and actually graduate, and fortunately enough I was able to get into school via football, but while there I grew a passion for academics and ultimately wanting to make a difference. You know, I was fortunate enough to jump into the healthcare industry shortly after undergrad where I just continued to progress, be given more and more responsibility. I had a network of leaders that supported me along the way in my development, continued to challenge me and give me new opportunities, and throughout this journey that's been over 30 years I've been fortunate enough to lead organizations here in the U.S. for major Fortune 100 companies like Pharmacia Pfizer, like Roche Labs, like Novo Nordisk. I even had the opportunity to serve as an ex-patriot in Basel, Switzerland for about two and a half years while with Roche Labs, and I believe that that journey, those experiences, actually prepared me to take on more of a leadership role in healthcare, and currently I am the president and CEO of Nasco Healthcare. We are a healthcare company focused on the development of simulation training solutions for first responders, such as folks who are in the frontlines right now fighting COVID-19, nurses and doctors, to ensure that they build the skills so that they are ready to meet the needs of patients however they present themselves, and so I'm very happy and excited to be on this podcast with you, talk to you a little bit about my background and my journey, but the long and short of it is, Zach, that I come from humble beginnings and I feel very fortunate and thankful to be in this role today to try to make a difference in healthcare. Zach: You know, let's talk about your role. You're the second Black male CEO we've had on the show. I'm curious to get your perspective on what you would say are the biggest factors that have led you to the seat that you're at in Nasco today.Ken: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that it is 1. my faith, as well as my support network, that has led me here. You know, trusting in God, trying to be the best person that I can be, living my life with integrity I think has positioned me well to take on this opportunity. And then having a strong support network. My wife, she's my #1 champion. She's always in my corner. She always helps me make good decisions, as well as my broader network of family members and friends who coach me along the way. I think those two elements have prepared me to be here as CEO and president. Don't get me wrong - I was very fortunate to go to a four-year school, get my undergrad education. I went and got my MBA from the University of Chicago, one of the best business schools in the world. I've worked all around the globe, so I've had great experiences, and I think that those things coupled with the first two points that I made have absolutely prepared me to take on this type of leadership role, Zach.Zach: I'm curious, especially during times like these, and we're coming up right after this whole Amy Cooper situation and the continual just brutalization of Black bodies that continues to be broadcasted on, like, major media platforms... I'm just a manager, but even I as a manager, I feel like my safety net has gotten smaller and smaller as I've progressed in my career. Am I overstating the pressure to succeed as a Black male CEO and, like, the small degree or the lack of grace that you may have the higher up you get? Am I overstating that?Ken: No, not at all, Zach. I do believe that our circles are getting smaller, and the challenges of assuming these leadership roles for men of color are even more and more difficult.Zach: So let's talk about that. How do you manage that stress for you? Like, how do you manage the stress of having to constantly be on your Ps and Qs? What does that look like for you? Ken: Yeah, absolutely. Let me come to the stress element second. Let me start with how to get there, okay? One is you've got to have to an unwavering belief in yourself. This makes me reflect back when I was in third grade, and my third grade teacher seeing me as a Black boy in class tried to put me in a remedial reading group, and my mom was not having it, Zach. My mom marched up to the school and she told that teacher, "There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. He has all of the capabilities as any other kid. All you've got to do is put him in the position and challenge him and hold him accountable." From that moment on, I committed myself to being my absolute best, to having a commitment to excellence in everything in which I do, and so that brings me back to this unwavering confidence and belief in yourself and never giving up, Zach, and I think that if you do that you will achieve your greatest opportunities. You will fulfill your greatest opportunities. Now let me get to your question about the stress, right? You know, listen, obviously being president and CEO comes with a number of pressures. It's a 24 hours a day, 7 day a week job. You're never off. There's always a flood or a fire that you've got to deal with. There's always a great opportunity that needs your input to lean on, to pursue. So it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I think that early on when I assumed this role it was far more challenging and far more stressful because I didn't have the experiences and I reacted to each individual situation with everything. I think that what I've learned, Zach, is to treat triumph and disaster as the true impostor of which it is. I try not to get too high when things are going great. I try not to get too low when things are going poorly. Second aspect of it is that I realize through my career to be successful it's going to take a team, therefore I try to gain organizational alignment and input and have strong trust and agreement among my team, because I know what it's gonna take to win is that it's gonna take the collective effort of all of us working together to achieve our aim or overcome any individual challenge. As a result of that, I think that I'm managing the stress much, much better. Because I don't get too high or too low, as well as because I lean on the capabilities and strengths of my teammates, recognizing that I don't have to take it on all on my own, that there are others that are in this with me to help me solve these challenges.Zach: What does it look like for you to navigate white fragility and build relationships and coalitions of trust with folks that don't look like you, considering where you sit as an executive?Ken: Hey, that's tough, right? You know, it's much easier for us to connect and bond with those that look like us, talk like us, walk like us. It's far easier. But at the same time, that's not the world or the environment in which I work in, right? It never has been, from the minute I walked into corporate America. I've always been surrounded by predominantly Caucasian males and to some degree Caucasian females, very few minorities. And so what I've learned to do throughout my career is find my authentic self, Zach. Be me. Be the best Kenny that Kenny can be and always present that to others, and I think that with me being authentic and genuine I connect better with others, as well as I can have more candid, open and honest conversations about things that are working and things which are not working. Sometimes, you know, my culture--listen, I'm a little direct, you know? I'm a little forward, but I want to make sure that we're having the real conversation and we're not sweeping any issues or concerns under the rug. And so with doing that I think that I've built really strong, long-lasting, trusting relationships with those which I've worked with. If you ever look on my Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook page, you'll see all of my colleagues throughout my 30-year career who are still my friends, who still recognize me for having a contribution in their development and helping them to progress and get to where they are today, and many of them are my Caucasian counterparts.Zach: Let's talk a little bit about Nasco and your journey in healthcare and, like, why this industry specifically.Ken: You know, it's very interesting. Zach, when I came out of undergrad graduating from the University of Albana in 1990, I just wanted to get a high-paying job, you know? So I wanted to get paid, so I jumped out and accepted a role down on Wall Street with Morgan Stanley. You know, I could see my future. I thought I'd be living the high life like The Wolf on Wall Street, but I quickly realized after a short six months in that industry that, although I was succeeding, I was growing, I was learning, I wasn't being fulfilled or personally rewarded, and so I got recruited by a pharmaceutical company and ultimately accepted that role, and I immediately began to flourish, and what I found was that I was able to do good while doing good, and what I mean by that is I was able to grow professionally, be successful, achieve my professional goals and aims, but at the same time I was able to bring healthcare solutions to physicians and nurses that were ultimately on the frontlines of impacting and saving people's lives, and from that I was tremendously rewarded. So throughout my 30-year career I have, with all of my passion, jumped into the deep end with these communities, whether it be the diabetes community, whether it be the psychiatric community, whether it be the simulation and training community of frontline healthcare workers, because I truly believe that the work in which I've done over my 30-year plus career and even to this day is really making a difference in helping to ultimately save lives and make our communities even better.Zach: So we're in extraordinary times. Can we talk a little bit about how Nasco's business is adapting to the market and challenges presented by COVID-19?Ken: Yeah, this is a very challenging time, Zach, and for us we've tried to modify and adjust our business to these times. First and foremost, the number one thing is to keep everyone safe, both the associates that work within Nasco Healthcare as well as their family and friends and the communities in which they live. So what we've first done is that we've enabled as many associates within the organization that have the ability to work from home to work from home. For all of those who are essential and critical to maintaining our business on a day-to-day basis within the building, we've instituted all of the normal social distancing measures, staying 6 feet apart, having mask requirements, limiting vendors into the corporate facilities, putting our manufacturing associates on staggered shifts to limit the bringing together in common areas like lunch rooms and break areas. We disinfect the entire facility from top to bottom four times a day, as well as we've put extra care into disinfecting all of our products as they are being shipped out of the building and ultimately arriving at our customers. So safety is the #1 priority. In terms of meeting the demands and the needs of the markets in this changing time, we've created more remote learning solutions. So we've partnered with universities, healthcare systems and governments around the world to create simulation training solutions that can be delivered digitally online so that healthcare professionals can continue to get certified and trained so that they are ready and prepared to meet the challenges of this pandemic. The last thing that we've done is that we've ramped up the production of our life-saving solutions, specifically our CPR solutions, our intubation heads, as well as our patient communication simulators that aid healthcare professionals in diagnosing COVID-19 during this crisis. Zach: And, you know, I'm hearing the parameters and the measures that you're taking. I'm curious, with that in mind, and as we look at--you know, folks are saying that this may be going on until, like, next year. You know, when you look at the next 18 months, what are you most excited about with Nasco?Ken: Yeah. I'm really excited about our ability to be able to take training from the classroom and take it into the home. With our digital remote learning solutions, I think that we have the ability to really help healthcare and first responders to be ready to 1. navigate through this crisis as well as be better prepared in the future. As well, we are ramping up our production of COVID-19 simulation solutions so that... and I shouldn't say just COVID-19 simulation solutions, Zach, but pandemic response simulation solutions so that once we conquer this pandemic and we use these solutions, we'll be much better prepared for those in the future. I think if there's one thing that we learned from the COVID-19 crisis is that we were not ready. We were not prepared as a nation or as a globe, and so I believe that our local, state and federal government leaders have clearly identified how woefully unprepared we were. So at Nasco Healthcare, our aim and our goal is to ensure that everyone be ready, and so we are building those life-saving solutions that help first responders and healthcare professionals be ready when the time comes. So whether it be to diagnose a patient during this crisis, whether it be to train a respiratory specialist on how to put someone on a ventilator, or to be able to resuscitate a patient that's in cardiac arrest that's right by the bedside or on the side of a car accident. All of these solutions we believe we will be coming forward with over the next 12-18 months that show a very bright future for Nasco Healthcare, and we ultimately hope to help the community be better prepared in the future. Zach: So before we let you go, what advice do you have to the marginalized professionals, especially now, in the workplace?Ken: Yeah. Well, I'm one of those marginalized professionals in the workplace, and so the first thing I would recommend is to believe in yourself. Never allow anyone to steal your confidence. That's #1. Have an unwavering belief in yourself. Two, commit yourself to excellence. Do the absolute best you can do at whatever you are doing. My mom taught me at a very young age that if you're gonna clean a bathtub or clean a toilet, scrub it until it shines, you know? Give it your best. Give it your all. Third is to build your network, right? Find individuals that you believe that you can learn from and ask questions. Be inquisitive. And last but not least is you've got to get up every day, right? You've got to get up every day and commit yourself to doing all that you can to grow. I think that there's one thing that I want the marginalized associate to remember, and one of my leaders taught me this a few years back in my career, Linda [?], one of my fondest leaders in my career, and what Linda told me was, "Ken, you might feel like you've got your back against the wall and there's only one way out of this situation, but remember, there are hundreds of options. You just have to down-select to the option that you think is most attractive for you." So Zach, for that marginalized associate, the last thing I'd want them to remember is that you've got many, many options to succeed. Don't believe there's only one path to your success. But choose a path and then get on that road, and if you find yourself deviating, course-correct, but stay focused, stay committed, continue to believe in yourself and I'm confident that you will achieve your goals and your aims. Chase your dreams. Never give up.Zach: You know, Ken, I gotta tell you, I appreciate your energy, man. Before we let you go, any shout-outs?Ken: I would just like to thank you, Zach, for allowing me the opportunity to be a part of this podcast. I'd like to thank Tina Chang and the pioneering collective for the work in which they do on my behalf, and I would just like to thank all of my friends and family who have supported me throughout my career that have allowed me to get to where I am now. I would just pray that everyone stay safe and stay healthy, and I'm wishing all of you and your families, you know, positivity as you navigate through this COVID-19 pandemic.Zach: All right, Ken. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. We do this every single Tuesday. Make sure you check us out. We're all over Barack Obama's internet, okay? So if you type in Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod and on Instagram @LivingCorporate. Until next time, you've been talking to Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco--CEO and president of Nasco Healthcare. Peace.

Welcome to Epi203 of Succotash Shut-In, the Soundcast Stimulus Package. I’m Marc Hershon, switch-off co-host with Tyson Saner, each of us taking every other week. That way we can bring you fresh Succotash every week as we do our best to ride out the pandemic lockdown together. The aim of this season of the show is to bring you short snippets of a variety of comedy soundcasts – a kind of Whitman’s Sampler of funny – so you can then track the ones down that you like and grab their full shows. To make it even easier for your soundcast safari you can easily get to each show by clicking on it's title as it appears below. I’ve decided to go with a kind of TV-themed rack of soundcasts to play for you durinig the half-hour we have together. We have Office Ladies; Fake Doctors, Real Friends; The Darkest Timeline, and Bonanas for Bonanza. This episode of Succotash is sponsored by Henderson’s Pants new Foggy Bottom Britches and also Trumpoetry.com. CLIPS Office LadiesIf you were a fan of TV's The Office – particularly the American version of Ricky Gervais’ genius mockumentary brainchild – or have thought about jumping in to fill up those long days and nights of sheltering in place, Office Ladies is the perfect “watch-along” soundcast. It’s hosted by Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey, who played Pam Beesley and Angela Martin on the show. And it’s an episode-by-episode, one-for-one breakdown, of the entire run of the TV show, which was on from 2005 to 2013 on NBC. One of the most recent shows tracked the season finale episode of season two, entitled “Casino Night”, which had been written by Steve Carell, who not just played but embodied Michael Scott, the boss. And they had a special guest for this episode – John Krasinski, who played Jim Halpert, who ends up marrying Pam in the show. In this clip, John and Jenna reminisce about when they auditioned together for The Office, which is when they first met. BTW — If you haven’t caught John’s weekly YouTube SGN videos, which stands for Some Good News, you’re missing out on some great spirit-lifting news about what people are doing during the COVID-19 crisis to help others. Check out a recent installment… Fake Doctors, Real FriendsAnother episode-by-episode breakdown of a beloved TV sitcom is Fake Doctors, Real Friends. Hosted by Zack Braff and Donald Faison, who were two of the series’ regulars on Scrubs, which ran from 2001 to 2010 – most of it on NBC, but the last two seasons aired on ABC. If you somehow missed this show the first time around — it did debut almost 20 years ago — here’s a summary from IMDB.com: “Set in the fictional Sacred Heart hospital in California, John 'J.D.' Dorian makes his way through the overwhelming world of medicine, with the help of his best friend, his fellow rookie doctors, and the arrogant, but brilliant attending physician he views as his mentor.”So Zach played J.D. and Donald his best friend, Christopher Turk. There are a lot of funny fantasy sequences in the show, which are mostly in J.D.’s brain. This clip is from a recent episode where series creator Bill Lawrence jumps in as their guest to talk about the show. The Darkest TimelineSo our next clip, from The Darkest Timeline, is also TV-show-related but it’s not a “rewatch show”. The title comes from an episode of NBC’s Community, created by Dan Harmon (who has a couple of soundcasts out there, including Harmontown – a show so popular it spawned its own documentary) and where the plot of it was a look at the show’s characters in a comically grim, alternate reality. Two of the show’s stars – Joel McHale and Ken Jeong – became best friends and feuding enemies. They often take any opportunity if being interviewed alone to throw shade at the other. Not unlike the ongoing rivalry between Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds, albeit with smaller paychecks.Anyway, they’re currently Zooming together to bring this soundcast to us and it’s really more of a weekly update on the COVID-19 situation and the outlook for the future. Ken has been a doctor for many years, long before he became an actor, and Joel has been a comedian, long before he became an actor. And they’ve found a quirky mix in this show of being informative while trying to keep things as light as they can given the gravity of the current health situation. This clip, however, is all for fun, as it’s from their Episode 9 which dropped recently and featured a Zoom call with pretty much the entire cast minus Chevy Chase, and including show creator Dan Harmon. For the record, that was Alison Brie, Danny Pudi, Dan Harmon, Donald Glover, Yvette Nicole Brown, Gillian Jacobs, and Jim Rash plus, of course, Joel and Ken. You won’t get that firepower every week but The Darkest Timeline is a a good listen and you can keep up on what’s happening, viruswise. Bonanas for BonanzaFor our last clip we’re going to take a hard left away from the sitcoms that feature prominently in the three preceding segments. Although this last one is, for all intents and purposes, a “rewatch” show. I’m not even sure how to explain Bonanas for Bonanza without taking up this whole show but let’s try. First of all, I’m not mispronouncing the title – it IS BO-nanas for Bonanza. Not sure why.As for the rest: Once upon a time, Andy Daly and Matt Gourley did a couple of seasons of Andy Daly’s Podcast Pilot Project over on Earwolf. (We clipped one of those pilots, Shut Up and Have Fun with Danny Mahoney, back in Epi85 of Succotash in 2014.) One of Andy’s characters from that group of pilot episodes was Dalton Wilcox, who billed himself as “The Poet Laureate of the West.” He also had a habit of hunting down and killing monsters such as werewolves and vampires.Cut to present day Soundcastland where Any and Matt have created a rewatch show around Bonanza, a very popular TV Western that ran for 15 years and went off the air in 1973. 1973. Take that in for a minute. You can find a lot of it on YouTube and some other streaming services. Well, hilariously, with Andy playing Dalton Wilcox and Matt coming in as country music legend Mutt Taylor, along with comedian Maria Bamford along for the ride as Bonanza superfan Amy Sleeverson, this trio is attempting to get their audience through all 431 episodes of this long-defunct TV show. They often will have a guest riding shotgun and our clip, Episode 4, “The Piute War”, feature the hardest-working guest in soundcasting: Paul F. Tompkins, appearing as Dalton’s adversary, Russell Shine. That’s going to do ‘er for Epi203 of Succotash Shut-In, the Soundcast Stimulus Package. Episode 204 will be coming up next week with my co-host-at-a-distance Tyson Saner. And coming up in the next few weeks from my side of the soundcast will likely be an interview with returning guest, improv and standup comedian extraordinaire Greg Proops, and a special Down Under edition of the show featuring clips from Australian-based soundcasts and co-hosted with old friend of Succotash Jason McNamara, aka “Jabs”, from Canberra, Australia. But that’s in the future. For now, take care of yourself, maintain social distance, wear a mask when you go out – I don’t care what local governments are saying, just use your common sense, and if you want to help cheer someone up, please pass them the Succotash! — Marc Hershon

Zach Stone on Drunken PM, Etienne de Bruin on Programming Leadership, Josh Seiden on The Product Experience, Pooja Agarwal on Coaching For Leaders, and Cate Huston on Distributed, with Matt Mullenweg. I’d love for you to email me with any comments about the show or any suggestions for podcasts I might want to feature. Email podcast@thekguy.com. And, if you haven’t done it already, don’t forget to hit the subscribe button, and if you like the show, please tell a friend or co-worker who might be interested. This episode covers the five podcast episodes I found most interesting and wanted to share links to during the two week period starting September 30, 2019. These podcast episodes may have been released much earlier, but this was the fortnight when I started sharing links to them to my social network followers. ZACH STONE ON DRUNKEN PM The Drunken PM podcast featured Zach Stone with host Dave Prior. Dave and Zack talked about Motivational Interviewing or MI, a technique for helping a person navigate the process of making changes in their life. They first talked about what doesn’t work. Walking up to a smoker of twenty years and listing to them all the reasons why smoking is bad for them is not going to change their behavior. It is the same thing when you are trying to change the way a person does their work. Listing the reasons you think they should change makes the change all about what you want when it should be all about what they want. The person you want to change is an expert in their own life. A big part of Motivational Interviewing is finding the natural desires, reasons, and needs for why they should change and making them visible. Dave likened the difference between telling people to change and using motivational interviewing to the difference between extrinsic motivation and intrinsic motivation. Zach shared a quote from Lao Tzu: “A leader is best when people barely know they exist. When their work is done, their aim fulfilled, the people will say, ‘We did it ourselves.’” At the core of that quote, he says, is a sentiment around empowerment and autonomy. If we want to create an environment where people feel ownership and create sustainable change, people need to feel like that change came from them and is owned by them. Change is a never-ending process; it is not an event; it is not something that happens overnight. Dave asked, if we’ve been dealing the problem of organizational change for so long, why have we not yet solved it? Zach went all the way back to Theory X and Theory Y and how we are still often stuck in Theory X even today. He pointed out that the habits of how we work become almost like addictions we can’t shake. Dave says he tries to be a Theory Y person, but finds himself falling into Theory X all the time. Zach says that this is “change fatigue”. A big part of motivational interviewing is recognizing that we have within us the “righting reflex”: the reflex to correct and inform and tell people how they should be acting. It is not something that you can really escape; you can just own it, be aware of it, and work around it as much as possible. Zach says organizations have immune systems that fight the change you try to inject into them. The reason MI is so elegant, he says, is because it maximizes the work not done. In MI, you try to pull change by igniting the natural mechanisms that are already there rather than asserting yourself on top of that system. The textbook definition of MI is that it is a collaborative conversation to strengthen a person’s own motivation for and commitment to change. It is both a set of principles and a framework of techniques. The five main tools are open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, summarizing, and informing. Zach told the story of speaking with a CIO about their technology stack. He shared with him that the developers at that company thought that innovation was stalling and technical debt was piling up. The CIO answered that they needed to develop new features and there was no time to address technical debt. Zach tried to affirm by talking about having seen some great innovation coming from this CIO’s teams and asking how they could keep it going. What became apparent was that the CIO was not going to budge. So he asked an open-ended question: “What do you think will happen if you let your technical debt pile up?” The CIO replied, “It is probably going to slow us down and hurt our ability to recruit top talent.” So Zach used reflection. Zach said, “On one hand, you feel you need to keep moving on developing features even if it means technical debt cleanup takes a backseat. On the other hand, if you do this, it is going to hurt your ability to recruit talent and eventually will slow down feature development.” He let that sit and thanked the CIO for his time because it was clear that the CIO was not ready to make a shift in his thinking. Two and half months went by and Zach leveraged the power of the group of this CIO’s technical leads. At a gathering of these leads where the CIO was present, Zach asked what their number one obstacle was and they all said, “Time.” Hearing it from people he trusted and respected, the CIO said that they would be launching an effort to address the technical debt issue. He used “change talk”: he made a commitment to change in a public forum. The research shows that the more people engage in change talk, the more likely they are to put plans into action. The next day, emails were flying back and forth, meetings were set, mechanisms were getting put in place for the tech leads and their teams to address this issue. Apple Podcasts link: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/motivational-interviewing-zach-stone/id1121124593?i=1000447916792 Website link: https://soundcloud.com/drunkenpmradio/motivational-interviewing-zach-stone-august-2019 ETIENNE DE BRUIN ON PROGRAMMING LEADERSHIP The Programming Leadership podcast featured Etienne de Bruin with host Marcus Blankenship. Etienne is the CEO of 7CTOs, a company that puts Chief Technology Officers into a peer mentoring environment to help them learn everything from situational leadership to achieving personal and professional goals. When he started the 7CTOs community, Etienne thought the conversations would focus on the software development lifecycle, technical debt, and managing the CEO’s expectations, but every time the focus went to the people challenges. He attributes the success of 7CTOs to how it addresses problems that require emotional intelligence (EQ) rather than IQ. Etienne told a story about when he first started a startup twelve years ago, he thought he was a fantastic CTO: he knew his stuff and he built the product’s first iteration with his bare hands. He had a reality check when he and his team did a retreat where they attempted to brainstorm ideas. He thought he was succeeding on inclusion and making every voice count from the most junior to the most senior. He was surprised to find that very few were participating. Until that moment, he hadn’t been aware of how fearful everyone was of collaborating with him because he was so blunt in his feedback and he was only happy if the idea was his own. He realized that he wasn’t going to succeed in the next level of his company’s development if he didn’t change. He had to let go of the idea that his employees were just there to execute his ideas and to see them as independent, creative human beings. He read the book Creative Confidence and it showed him that every single person is creative and we just vary in our confidence about our creativity.  Marcus said that if employees are not there just to be extensions of ourselves, what kind of employees should we be looking for. Etienne said that there are two things we want to do when we hire. First, we want the candidate to fulfill the minimum requirements of the job spec. Second, we want the candidate to be set up to succeed inside of the team. Etienne has used personality tests like DISC profiles and enneagrams to get an idea of how well the candidate can meet the second criterion. They got into a discussion about the difference between avoiding emotions and having emotions but realizing you have a choice in how you respond to them. Etienne pointed out that you can rely on other people to help you through your emotions. You can increase your EQ with the help of others. Apple Podcasts link: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/putting-the-emotion-into-eq-with-etienne-de-bruin/id1461916939?i=1000447505984 Website link: https://programmingleadership.podbean.com/e/putting-the-emotion-into-eq/ JOSH SEIDEN ON THE PRODUCT EXPERIENCE The Product Experience podcast featured Josh Seiden with hosts Lily Smith and Randy Silver. Lily, referring to Josh’s new book Outcomes Over Output, asked Josh how he defines an outcome. He says it is a change in human behavior that drives business results. One reason that this is a useful definition is that it is specific. When you use outcome in the broad sense, it can be heard as a synonym for result or goal. A second reason is that human behavior is observable, concrete, and action-oriented. This definition for outcome lets you ask the questions, “What are we going to do to deliver these outcomes? How can we change people’s behavior through the systems that we are building?” These questions lead to concrete answers where you can observe the results. The reason Josh says “human behavior” is because he is referring to any actor in the system. In UX design, the actor is usually assumed to be the user. But, in this case, it can be the user, the customer, an internal person (such as someone in customer support), a journalist you want writing about your product, or any person who is participating in the system that is to be built. Lily said that in her own attempts to move more towards outcomes, she has had the problem of having too high-level an outcome. Josh says that the Logic Model framework from the non-profit, social-good sector can help with this. In this framework, high-level measures like profit, cost, net promoter score, or customer retention are called impacts. It is unlikely that an individual team can move such numbers on their own. So you ask what outcomes will create the impact that you seek and you get something that is scoped down enough to be actionable on the team level. Randy asked why it is so hard for organizations to change their thinking about this and stop setting goals around milestones, dates, projects, and outputs. Josh says that you can’t get around the problem of output because making stuff is how you get to the outcome. He gave the example of Scrum. Scrum is built around the sprint. The sprint isn’t complete until you create a finished piece of software you can ship. This is important, but it doesn’t mean that what you created has the effect in the world that you want it to have. Randy asked about the problem of the increase in dependencies and complexity as companies grow. Josh says you have to think about how to increase the independence of the teams. He says you should think of your internal teams (those that are not customer-facing) as having customers. If you are an internal team, you can ask, “What does the customer-facing team that is our customer need and what is the smallest thing I can give them so that they are unblocked and can start serving their customer.” By remodeling this relationship from a dependency to a customer service model, you can string outcomes down the value chain and hopefully reduce dependencies that way. Another alternative is to give teams a shared or aligned outcome. They compared Josh’s terminology with that of Objectives & Key Results (OKR). Josh agreed with Lily that his definition of an outcome matches up with a key result. He used the John Doerr example of how Google once had an objective of solving the problem of the Internet being too slow by making browsing feel more like flipping through a magazine, which became the Google Chrome program. The key result was based on the number of users actively using Chrome. It wasn’t that they shipped it. It wasn’t the number of downloads. When you ensure a KR is not an output but a meaningful result in the world, it drives you to an outcome-centric definition. Josh talked about a section from his book called “the three magic questions.” The first question is, “What are the user and customer behaviors that drive business results?” The next question is, “How do we get people to do more of these things?” The last question is, “How do we know when we’re right?” Lily asked how you build outcomes into your roadmap. Josh told the story from his other book, Sense and Respond, about a large startup in New York whose annual planning process was to produce an outcome-based roadmap. They might say something like, “We want to increase our marketshare in Europe” or “We want to shore up our business with this customer segment.” The product teams listed all the projects they could do, the demand from the market, and the things that need fixing. The product managers would try to reconcile those two things and choose the body of work that aligned with leadership priorities. They would commit to leadership to, say, increase marketshare in Europe by some percentage, but would not sign up for outputs. Instead, they would reserve the right to swap in and out projects based on whether they were moving the needle or not on the outcomes. Apple Podcasts link: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/outcomes-over-outputs-josh-seiden-on-product-experience/id1447100407?i=1000445191364 Website link: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/2019/07/outcomes-over-outputs-josh-seiden-on-the-product-experience/ POOJA AGARWAL ON COACHING FOR LEADERS The Coaching For Leaders podcast featured Pooja Agarwal with host Dave Stachowiak. Dave brought up that, in her book, Pooja says that the science of learning sits dormant in academic journals rather than being easily accessible. She says that we are all learners and we are all teachers. Teaching is something we do everyday even without thinking about it. Dave asked about the three stages of learning that Pooja describes in her book. Pooja pointed out that the three stage model is a simplistic model but is a helpful framework. The first stage is encoding or getting things into our heads. The second stage is storage. The third stage, retrieval, is where we pull information out. In higher ed, she says, we often think of retrieval as showing what you know, but we learn when we retrieve. By that act of retrieving, we are helping ourselves remember something in the future. Dave gave an example from a previous episode on delegation. He said that, after delegating a task, leaders often ask, “Do you understand?” A better question would be something like, “What are the key deliverables of what I have delegated to you?” This question gets the employee to articulate it to not only assess where they are in their learning but also to reinforce their learning. Dave asked about the statement in the book to stop reviewing things and instead ask for what was discussed. Pooja said that as leaders we often start meetings with, “Here’s what we did at the last meeting, so here’s what we’re going to accomplish today.” Instead, ask people to take a minute and write down what they can remember from the previous meeting. This engages them in such a way that it helps them to better understand the content of the present meeting.  Apple Podcasts link: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/421-help-people-learn-through-powerful-teaching-pooja/id458827716?i=1000445006344 Website link: https://coachingforleaders.com/podcast/learn-through-powerful-teaching-pooja-agarwal/ CATE HUSTON ON DISTRIBUTED, WITH MATT MULLENWEG The “Distributed, with Matt Mullenweg” podcast featured Cate Huston with host Matt Mullenweg. Cate leads the developer experience team at Automattic. This team is concerned with what it means to be a developer at Automattic, including the challenges of distributed, remote development, how developers can learn from each other, and how developers can get the support they need to chart their own career paths. She says a critical part of the developer experience is the connection between the hiring process and the on-boarding process. They are thinking about how to make the hiring process a good experience where the candidate can see if Automattic is the right fit for them and Automattic can see if the candidate is the right fit for the company. They want this to carry through as the new employee joins the team and becomes successful in their new role. Because the Automattic organization is so large and the developer experience team is so small, they look for pivot points to maximize their impact. She gave an example: when a team gets a new lead, that is a pivot point. They support this new lead and help them develop and iterate on their process. Cate’s advice to Automattic job candidates is to be patient because distributed companies take longer to hire and there is a lot of competition for remote jobs. A well-crafted cover letter is a must. When Cate is hiring an engineer, she is looking for two things. The first is the ability to work with the kind of complex, legacy codebase they have. The second is to be able to respond well to feedback because you are expected to grow over time in your career. She talked about self-awareness. As an example of low self-awareness, she talked about how some people need to be seen as being “nice,” regardless of whether it is true or not. The gap between the way somebody talks about themselves and their actions reveals their lack of self-awareness. She listed some things that increase self-awareness: reading a broad variety of fiction, cultivating a broad network of people, and traveling outside your comfort zone. Matt added that you can travel outside your comfort zone without leaving your city by visiting parts of your city you haven’t traveled to before. Cate also recommends shedding defensiveness and getting curious. She also recommends asking for advice. People often don’t give advice when they think you are doing a good job. When she gives feedback to people, she asks them if they felt seen when they received the feedback. Matt tries to remind himself that feedback is a gift. Cate says that if somebody cares about you enough to tell you that they think you should do better, that means they think you can do better. Cate also recommends that we stop giving advice, especially without context or understanding of what someone is trying to achieve. Instead, pause, ask questions, get context, and reflect back to someone what they are saying to you. Last, Cate says to own up and admit what is not going well. She gave an example of her team recently doubling in size. Seeing her job changing, she asked the team what the most useful thing she does for them was and what she should stop doing. Matt asked what else makes a great engineering culture. Here is Cate’s answer: Apple Podcasts link: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/automattics-cate-huston-on-building-distributed-engineering/id1463243282?i=1000447512202 Website link: https://distributed.blog/2019/08/22/cate-huston-distributed-engineering/ LINKS Ask questions, make comments, and let your voice be heard by emailing podcast@thekguy.com. Twitter: https://twitter.com/thekguy LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithmmcdonald/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thekguypage Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_k_guy/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheKGuy Website:

This week Robby was busy with a flop on a river that had something to do with a straight flush. So Zach and Shannon go on another tangent about dad life. Also We talk about Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 and Fire Emblem 3 Houses.

We have the pleasure of speaking with Chris Moreland, the chief diversity and inclusion advocate at Vizient. He explains why he puts inclusion first and talks about the top three things most companies are getting wrong when it comes to D&I.Connect with Chris on LinkedIn!https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisjmoreland/Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: It's Ade.Zach: So listen, y'all, we gonna get straight to it this time, 'cause we have a really special guest. I'm really excited. Today we have the opportunity--we had the opportunity rather to sit down and speak with Chris Moreland. He's the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient Incorporated, based out of Dallas, Texas, and I'm just gonna read a little bit of his profile so we can kind of talk about what we're talking about today. Known for possessing a contagious regard for winning, a bias for action and a healthy disrespect for insurmountable challenges. A street-smart C-level leader with a diverse industry background, an indispensable partner for innovative organizations, people development, and building teams. Chris is best known for leading organizations through change, developing innovative solutions, and deciphering ambiguity. He established a track record of performance and execution at Fortune 500 icons like Vizient, Microsoft, Expedia, General Electric, Johnson & Johnson, Pepsi, and Mobil, okay? So this person that we got to speak to today, he and I had an amazing conversation about inclusion and diversity, and in the conversation that you're gonna hear, you'll hear why he puts inclusion first, but we're really excited and want y'all to hear the whole interview, and so we don't want to make it too long by, you know, adding to it, so--Ade: We're gonna keep it short and sweet.Zach: That's right, we're gonna keep it short and sweet. So unfortunately, Ade, no Favorite Things this week.Ade: Nope, but we have an amazing, amazing, amazing interview, so it's good.Zach: It's dope. And after the interview, you know, we'll wrap from there, but the next week we've got a B-Side, and it's me and Ade talking about the interview, talking about D&I, and, you know, having fun. Hopefully y'all laugh. Maybe y'all will cry. Maybe you'll laugh and cry at the same time. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe. [strange noise]Ade: What was that noise? [laughs]Zach: It was like a [strange noise]. It was a shrug. That's, like, a shrug if I was to put a noise to it. [again]Ade: I'm gonna pass on your sound effects skills once again.Zach: Man, my sound effects skills are fire, but that's okay. In fact, you know what? Hold on. JJ, go ahead and give me some air horns, one time for ya head top, for Chris Moreland, 'cause he gave us a fire interview. [imitating air horns] Let's go. [JJ drops 'em] I'm giving him the air horns before we even get to the interview. That's how fire the interview was. What's up?Ade: Look, I don't disagree. Shout-out to Chris. Amazing conversation.Zach: Shout-out to Chris.Ade: You on the other hand are a walking dad joke store.Zach: Yo, I really feel like--so watching that movie Us, I really feel as if that character that ya mans was playing was really just me in, like, five years with no beard, but that's me.Ade: Like, Winston Duke's character?Zach: Yes, I feel like that's me.Ade: I have not heard great reviews, so you probably should not--Zach: No, first of all, Us is fire, and we can talk about that later.Ade: Well, not--you know what? Yes, let's close this out.Zach: So shout-out to Chris, shout-out to Vizient, and yo, shout-out to him being the chief storyteller at Storyteller's Consulting. He's gonna talk a little bit about that in the interview as well, and we'll make sure we have all of this information in the podcast notes, but look, until next week, it's been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Zach: Y'all check out this interview. Peace.Ade: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And so as we shared before the break, we have Chris Moreland on the show. Chris, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Chris: I'm fantastic. Thanks so much, Zach.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself and how you got into your field?Chris: Absolutely. Well, my name is Chris Moreland. I reside in Dallas, Texas, and I am now the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient. Vizient is basically a supply chain company that does GPO for health care systems. We do about 100--maybe 105, 110 billion dollars worth of hospital spend on an annual basis.Zach: That's awesome. You know, I guess for me--so let me just say as a quick aside, and this isn't even in my questions, but I just wanted to say it--it's really inspiring to see a person of color, and frankly a black man, in such a position of influence, and I'm just really excited to have you here. So I probably should've said that at the beginning. I don't really care. This is our show. I just want to tell you that I'm happy that you're here.Chris: It's good to be here. It's good to be here.Zach: Absolutely. So look, let's get into it. So I'm on this app, right, called Fishbowl, and it's an anonymous posting app for consultants. Every now and then diversity and inclusion comes up, and most are disillusioned by the topic because it's being seen as a lot of talk and very little walk. So what do you think are some of the top three things most companies are getting wrong when they talk about diversity and inclusion?Chris: Right. That's a really good question, Zach, and it's not a simple answer, but I'll try to simplify the answer. There are several things that companies are not getting right, and if you--if you look at the most recent research, I think it points to some very important things that I think, going forward, we really need to focus on. The first thing is that most companies tend to put diversity and inclusion into the bucket of human resources as though it is part of a function which is different than the function of marketing, which is different than the function of, you know, research and development, which would be different than the function of sales. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes, by putting it specifically in a function. The second thing that I think goes wrong often times with the way companies approach diversity and inclusion is around--they use education as a way of changing behaviors, and we can talk about this a lot more later, but education has been proven now as being the least credible way of changing a human being's behavior, okay? And then the third piece, which I think a lot of people get wrong as far as diversity and inclusion, is how they think about diversity and inclusion relative to accountability. It's one thing to talk about it, but it's a whole 'nother thing when no one ultimately is accountable for the changes that they would like to make relative to diversity and inclusion.Zach: Expound upon that a bit more if you could.Chris: Absolutely. So the first piece around which function generally owns diversity and inclusion, and that being human resources. The reason why that normally doesn't vet out very well for companies is that the organization then feels like their [?] human resource officer is ultimately responsible for diversity and inclusion, and that's an error. Diversity and inclusion should be part of every function. It should be part of the culture of the organization. It should not be quarantined off into a specific function, because it should flow just like values, just like goals, just like culture. It should be part of the way we do business. It should be used as an enabler, not as a functionally-constrained part of an organization. You know, the second piece, which points education--education, as you know, is something that people try to use to make different decisions and result in different behaviors, but as you know if you've ever gone to church, if you've ever seen students in school, education doesn't necessarily mean that once a person knows what they should do, knows the right thing to do, understands the impact of certain actions, that they are going to then adopt those habits, those practices. Each of us go to church every Sunday, and we--depending upon what denomination you may be part of, but you can see the same church crowd that sits in the pews on Sunday, they go out and cut each other off in traffic immediately following the service in some cases, and so it's--you know, it's a bad way of thinking that "I'm going to change the behavior by telling you the right thing to do." And in the last piece, which is what I call just accountability, is that, you know, again, if it's in HR, a lot of times HR feels accountable solely, but no one else in the organization feels as though they have any accountability. They feel as though it has been quarantined off and thus there is a function that is accountable for it, but that is the only function that ultimately becomes accountable for it in that instance, so yeah.Zach: Man, that's incredible. When you and I first met, we talked about diversity and inclusion, and you told me--you said, "Zach, you know, a lot of times people get those letters--the order of those letters wrong, and they should be putting inclusion first." So let me ask you this - what does inclusion really mean practically, and how can companies actualize inclusion in the workplace?Chris: Right. So inclusion, in my title and at least at Vizient, we actually put that word in front of diversity, because inclusion has more to do with the actions that you are taking. Inclusion has to do with "Who's in the conversation? Is the conversation being had? Does everyone's perspective, opinions, and backgrounds matter? Is there value seen in my difference?" Not "Am I different?" Diversity, which really comes from a Latin root word meaning "divertere," or "to divert, to separate." It's the differences between us. It's pretty much meaningless in any organization unless you have the inclusion part first, and the inclusion means that I see you, I see your differences, and I see the value in those differences, and ultimately I don't want to move forward with any decision, with any strategy, with any proposal, until I get all different sides of this idea understood and heard, because understanding that when I am inclusive I actually get a much better outcome. It should always precede diversity. Diversity by itself is pretty meaningless unless it is preceded by inclusion.Zach: Yeah. No, absolutely, and so I'm curious - what methods have you seen that are effective when it comes to organizations really leaning into the inclusion piece of their I&D strategy?Chris: Right. That's a great question, because there is a--there is a huge difference. It's like night and day when it comes to organizations and effectiveness of those organizations when you do lead with inclusion. A couple of practices. One, there is--there are very few human beings that I've met thus far who are openly and consciously biased. In other words, open and conscious bias means that I see you, I see your differences, and I am absolutely just going to deliberately exclude those differences from my decisions, from my thoughts, from my practices, from my campaigns and everything else. When I lead with inclusion, what it does is it says I understand that I have this subconscious, this subliminal, this unconscious ability or need or desire to assimilate with those things that look similar to me, and we all have this in our personalities. We all want to assimilate with like things. We want to be around people who look like us, act like us, talk like us, have the same backgrounds as us, because it makes us more comfortable, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in order to actively have an inclusive culture, you have to understand that it's an uphill battle. It goes against our natural tendencies, and so when organizations actually adopt a truly inclusive culture, it doesn't start with just education, making people aware of the subconscious knack to go away from things that are not like you. It actually does more than that. It goes to creating an understanding of what those differences are and why and how those differences can and should be used to create greater value. I'm not talking about, in this case, educating you on unconscious bias. I think you may remember more recently in the news Starbucks had a situation with one of their restaurants, and they shut their stores down for an entire half-day, and what they did was they focused on educating people on unconscious bias. So there was a training that was done around unconscious bias, and the net effect of that training based on all research is that it had a shelf life of about 90 minutes.Zach: 90 min--an hour and a half?!Chris: 90--an hour and a half. It had a shelf life of 90 minutes, but then our natural, innate tendencies go back to exactly the way we were before we were exposed to that education and training. And so the good thing is that they at least acknowledged that there needed to be something done. The bad thing is that they're using the same tools that we used in 1962, in this country, in order to make civil rights the rights of everyone, and you can see, you know, 50 some odd years later, the outcomes are the same. It's because the techniques and the practices are the same. A lot of it is education, and then the second piece to that is legislation. So when you educate and legislate, you believe that, "Oh, things are going to change." They don't change. These are behavioral tendencies that we have to tap into in order to try and counteract things and make people's behaviors actually change.Zach: Well, see, it's interesting that you say that because--in terms of the historical lens by which you're looking through to discuss inclusion and diversity and facilitating change, because I don't necessarily know if I--if I see a lot of the historical narrative being engaged when we talk about effective methods and approaches to really driving inclusion and diversity, and often times, in my experience, these programs rarely even engage the subject of race explicitly, even to the point where they may create, like, different points of diversity. Like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, and yes, I'm not saying that those points don't exist, Chris, but historically, like, those points, they're strongly interwoven with the intersection of gender and ethnicity, right? But I don't know if I necessarily 1. see a lot of invoking of history when we talk about education and effective methods moving forward in the future, and I don't know if I see a lot of--in fact, sometimes I hear diversity of thought or diversity of education or diversity of background really used as replacements for diversity of race and intersection between--intersectionality of gender and race. Have you seen that? And if you kind of see where I'm coming from, why do you think that is?Chris: Yeah. So let me answer both questions pretty quickly, and then I'll get into a little detail. So the answer is yes and yes. Yes, I have seen it happen. Yes, it is very, very frustrating, and yes, I do understand why it is happening the way that it is happening, because--first let's go back to the terms of diversity and inclusion and why most people tend to use the word diversity preceding the word inclusion. It is because it is a lot easier for me to point out all of the differences between, you know, the 7.5 billion people that are in this world. I can tell you there are differences for all of us, and we should all be aware of and appreciative of all of those differences, but let's think about that at a neurological level, because that's where change happens. It happens at a neurological level. So Zach, if you walk into a room, and a person who walks into a room--and you're originally from where, Texas?Zach: Yes.Chris: Okay, so you're originally from Texas. So you walk into a room, and then right next to you a straight Caucasian male walks into the room, and his background just happens to not be from Texas. Let's say he's from L.A., okay? So he has diversity of experience. You have diversity of race. You both walk into the same room, and you're both seen by a group of executives that are sitting around the table that you're about to engage. Sitting around that table, what do you physically think the reaction will be of your presence versus your male straight white counterpart's presence who just happens to be from L.A.? Both having diversity, you know, based on just them walking into the room. And again, the audience--let's say the audience is full of Texans, okay? So if you--go ahead. Please answer that question, and then I can go on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, I think--I think that if it's all Texans and they are, let's say, all white men, I think they're gonna gravitate and presume that the white--my white counterpart is the more senior, more competent authority in the space.Chris: Exactly. There are a certain set of assumptions that go into your brain, in other people's brains, the second you or I walk into a room. The second you or I walk into a bus, the second you or I walk into an elevator. And again, I do not blame the neuroscience behind the minds of the individuals who make assumptions as soon as you or I walk into a room, but it is very different when I used the word diversity talking about race versus when I use the word diversity and I talk about a person's background or a person's education, because certain people have certain assumptions that are attributed to their physical being. They can't help it. You can't help what I think about when I look at you as you walk into a room. You have no control over that. It's just like the white straight male from L.A. cannot help what I may think about him when he walks into the room, but some of these assumptions, some of these thoughts, some of these implicit biases are nothing--they have nothing to do with who's standing in front of you, okay? So I think--going back to your question, I think a lot of times--in the field of diversity and inclusion we've now migrated away from the cornerstone of diversity and inclusion, which had everything to do with gender and race, and we've migrated now to diversity of thought, diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity of a lot of different things, and I'm not saying any of those things are wrong, but I am saying that neurologically, when I think about the word diversity, the reason why I believe we have to go back to the cornerstone of diversity, which has everything to do with gender and race, because of that reaction when you walked into the room with your white male counterpart. Until I can get this country and individuals in corporate America past the fact that they have no control over that implicit bias associated with that initial impression, then I cannot move forward and start thinking about other forms of diversity because there is an implicit association associated with just your physical presence that, quite frankly, has a stereotype associated with it, and it has a whole set of thoughts and assumptions associated with just your physical presence, which is where I think the work needs to be done, which is where I think we need to start building from.Zach: So you've made mention about making authentic connections and those neuropathic pathways. I'd love to hear more about that. When we first spoke, like, you talked about that. I'd love to hear more about that, because as you and I know, the real change happens at the executive level. So one, please expound a little bit about those pathways and those genuine, like, connections, and then what methods have you seen be effective in driving that sort of openness to be connected outside of one's comfort zone at, like, the top and highest of levels?Chris: Wow. So big question. [both laugh] I'm gonna start with three words, and then I'm gonna dive into each of those words just briefly so I can uncover some of what you've asked. The first word I want to talk about is a word called covering. The second word, or words, I want to talk about is safe place, and then the third word that I want to talk to you about is change and change management, okay? And these are all different, but they're all connected. So covering, let's start off with that. The reason why men and women who look like you and I, who work in corporate America, spend a large percentage of their time covering is because we understand that there are certain stigmas associated with our physical presence and there's no getting around it. The reason why you or I might not necessarily be as open to talk about some of our childhood experiences in the corporate setting is because we do not feel as though they are appropriate, and so we hide them, we cover them. Covering is an actual term that was coined back in the mid-'60s by a sociologist who talked about stigmas associated with all different types of people, and we all have them, you know? Straight white men also have the habits of covering, but they are a lot deeper when it comes to some of the underrepresented races in this country. So if you're either foreign background or of a heritage that puts you into a category as far as being called brown of some sort or shade in this country, you spend a lot of your physical energy covering, covering up who you authentically are, because you do not feel as though it's appropriate. You do not feel that you will have a good opportunity to assimilate unless you cover. And covering goes across the board. It's everything from how you groom yourself to, you know, as you're getting older, some of us, you know, color the gray hairs that may be popping out of our heads, and others of us cover even things like our bodies. Our bodies are a lot of times covered. There's a--the first billionaire female in this country made a billion dollars by covering women. It's the woman who started the SPANX brand in this country. The first billionaire woman under 40, I believe it is. SPANX. SPANX is nothing more than us having an openly bias toward a thinner physical person, and thus SPANX helps us do that, and so we like to cover the fact that we are not necessarily of a certain physicality, and we hide that through things like SPANX. So covering is where a lot of this starts. Go ahead. You have a question.Zach: I was gonna say--you were talking about SPANX. You know, it kind of reminds me of the first black--the first black female billionaire, Madam C.J. Walker, right?Chris: Absolutely, absolutely.Zach: Right? With selling perms and relaxers, right? Like, that was--I think that kind of falls into the bucket of covering. Please continue though. This is amazing.Chris: Yeah. No, you've hit something that is extremely important. I wasn't gonna talk about it because a lot of us suffer from this, but the reason why weaves, the reasons why straight hair, the reason why the European look for African-Americans in this country has been such a phenomenon and has made so many millionaires and billionaires in this country, is because of this thing called covering. When we view something as being the way that we need to better assimilate, we spend our entire lives trying to fit that image, trying to mold ourselves into the image of what we want to assimilate into. We bleach our skin. We straighten our hair. We change the way our body is shaped, all with an effort to cover who we actually are. So a lot of this starts with the idea of [or phenomenon?] called covering. Let me move to the second piece, which is safe space. Safe space is what your executive leaders at every major corporation in this country need to create in order for other people not to feel the need to cover. A safe space is basically an environment or a culture where inclusion is part of what they just do. Inclusion means that I am going to allow you to show up and be your authentic self because I think there is so much value in that. "Chris, I want you to come to work. I want you to dress, act like, be like, you know, fashion yourself after who you really are versus who you believe we want you to be, because we see value in that. We see and understand the value of your differences. We want to know who you are really, and through that story we're actually going to use it to create a better organization, a better company, a better culture." So the idea of creating a safe space can only be done when senior leaders see and understand the influence that they have on an organization and in a culture. If you've ever been in an organization where you felt like there were certain things you can't do, you can't say, certain ways that you just can't act--and not because they're inappropriate, but just because the leader, who creates the culture, has already deemed certain things as being inappropriate, and if you've been in any corporation in this country you know, depending upon which company you're a part of, there's certain things that are just not allowed, and those certain things often times are usually authentic parts of who you are. They're not abusive. They're not distasteful. They're just part of who you naturally are. One key example is my administrative assistant, who for the longest time had been wearing hair pieces and weaves and wigs and everything else, and she had been working for me for about two years, and she called me one weekend in almost a panic, and I answered the phone and I said, "What's going on? What's happening?" And she just happens to be African-American, and she said, "Chris, I'm going to text you a picture of me, and I want you to let me know if it's okay." I said, "Okay," and I thought it was--I thought it had more to do with clothing that she was wearing. She texted me a picture of her wearing her natural hair.Zach: Oh, wow.Chris: Wearing her natural hair, and she said, "Is it okay if I show up to work on Monday without my wigs?" And I said to her--and I'm not gonna use her name 'cause I don't want to embarrass her on this podcast, but I said, "Oh, my God." I said, "You look beautiful." I said, "You look like my sister. You look like my daughter. You look like my mother. You look like my friend. You look like the person who is my partner at work, and I love your authentic self." I said, "Do not ever feel like you have to cover who you are to show up at work." She says, "Well, I just wasn't sure if it was appropriate," and I told her--I said, "You are beautiful as you are. Please show up just like the picture has you," and again, all she did was allow her hair to be natural, and it was just curly, a little kinky, but it was the cutest, most beautiful picture I have ever seen, and since time she has worn her natural hair every day of the week.Zach: That's beautiful, yeah.Chris: Exactly. I could not make this story up. So as a senior leader, your job, your accountability, is to create a safe space so that people who are different can actually show up as themselves. The third piece that I would talk to you a little bit about is called accountability or change management, and when I say change management/accountability, what that to me says is that's, again, the job of the senior leaders in the organization, and that has more to do with if they show up as what I call Pepsi perfect, then they have already set the standard. If they do not or are not willing to show any humility or vulnerability, then no one else will feel like they can make mistakes or be vulnerable. They set the stage, the culture, for the organization and how the organization is going to evolve, and when they believe that they have to be perfect or show up perfect or set requirements such that there can be no mistakes, then you get very unauthentic, unengaged people showing up. The last piece of your question was methodology, and "Chris, how do you think we can use--what methodology have you used to try to create this environment of safety, this culture of inclusion and the ability for people to show up authentically?" And I'll tell you, it starts at the neurological level, and that is it has everything to do with your ability to articulate who you really are, and I call that story-telling. And the reason why I call it story-telling is because there is actually a neuroscience change that happens in your brain when you hear a person's story. When you take the time to understand a person's background, when you take the time to understand what has gotten a person to where they are in life, you change yourself. The reason why you change is for two things actually. One, the reason you change is because your brain doesn't know the difference between an experience and a story. So if I tell you a--if I tell you about a story, it is the same thing as if you were to experience it yourself. If I talked to you about my story of growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, and basically having to take two buses and a train to get to school every day and some of the experiences that I had going through, you know, high school and college, after I finished my story, Zach, you will neurologically change, because your body--your brain doesn't know the difference between my story and you actually experiencing some of that yourself, and so you get this flood of hormones that go through your body which actually change the neuro-receptors in your brain and make--because your brain has this thing called plasticity, you actually change. You feel different about me, and the reason why you feel different about me is because you see a part of you in me. Because it may be a completely different experience that I had in high school or college or even in the work environment, but as I tell you my story, you see yourself in me, and it brings you and I together. And it's not just you and I, it's me and the CEO. It's me and the chief marketing officer. It's me and the chief operating officer. So as opposed to that person or those people relying heavily on what they physically see when I walk into the room, when I tell them my story and I learn their stories, they can no longer look at me the same way because they have neurologically changed. We have created relationship where was none before.Zach: Wow.Chris: Yeah.Zach: [both laugh] Hold on. You know what I like about you, Chris? Well, I like a lot of things about you, but I like the way that you be--you be hitting, like--you be hitting [?] bars, and then you'll be like, "Yeah." Like, "That was fire and I know it. React to that." [both laugh] No, no, no. There's so much there, and I think--first of all, we're probably gonna--we're definitely gonna have to have a part two to this podcast because I want to get deeper. At the same time I don't want us to go have a two-hour podcast, but I do want to follow-up on something. So then when you're talking about creating these--like, sharing these stories and making these connections, you know, what are ways that black and brown professionals coming into an organization can facilitate that in a way that manages up? Like, what are ways that they could do that and help move the needle forward in their favor? What are ways that they could--they could share their stories and create those connections that would support and help them in their careers?Chris: God, that's a great question. So I'm gonna use a term which is based on education, which I told you at first that education does not necessarily change you, but I want to use this term from education 'cause you can start using it and applying it in your day-to-day. And it's a whole study and science around this thing called emotional intelligence, okay? So emotional intelligence, a quick definition of what it is - it's just your ability to take everything that's going on today in your life, Zach, everything that happened, you know, this morning--you know, you, you know, getting out of bed at a certain time, having to, you know, get certain things done, worrying about certain other things that probably lingered from the weekend--your ability to take all of those things that are just clawing and drawing at your attention and put them to the background and focus on Chris during this podcast. Your ability to do that is the quick definition of what emotional intelligence is. It's all of our ability to take everything that's going on in our lives and put it as a backdrop and to be present and able to listen to and serve the person who is sitting in front of us. So taking ourselves and putting ourselves secondary to another human being, but how does emotional intelligence actually help us as we're trying to create these inclusive organizations, to your point or your question, "How do we manage up?" We do it by being emotionally intelligent, and I'll give you a little bit more definition about how that application actually works at work. First of all and foremost, emotional intelligence is the best-correlated skill set to career advancement that there is. Let me pause and say that one more time. Emotional intelligence has the greatest correlation to career advancement than anything else. It is higher than IQ. You may get a job because of a high IQ. You get promoted because of a high EQ, and in this case EQ is emotional intelligence. And so how does that show up and how does that work? It works like this. As you get into an organization--and let's just say that you are different from an ethnicity or from a race-based perspective--first of all, all eyes are on you, and you probably know that if you've been employed by any of the major Fortune 1500 companies in this country, and because all eyes are on you, you get a lot of exposure that you had not even really anticipated or asked for, but the way you manage that from an emotional intelligence perspective is that you spend all of your time trying to find out and figure out what is going on with other individuals and people around you. One of the first things I did when I came to Vizient seven years ago--this is the truth--is that I went up to the CEO--first of all, I didn't take the job until I got a chance to meet the CEO, and I made that a prerequisite before I even came to the organization because I knew that the CEO creates the culture, and I wanted to figure out exactly what type of culture he had created. The first meeting that I had with him, the first thing that we talked about was his dress, the way he dressed, and the reason why we talked about the way he dressed is because he dressed the way I had always wanted to dress. It was very colorful. He had--you know, custom jeans on. He had designer shoes on. I mean, even to this day I can't afford everything that he wore, but it was so well put together that our first conversation was around his dress. I then wanted to understand how did he progress through the organization, so we had a really long conversation about the fact that he started out as an analyst, you know, 30 something odd years ago and then eventually was promoted up through the ranks of CEO. I found out about his wife and her background and the fact that she started out as a CPA. I also had many, many conversations with him about his son. He only has one son, and his son at the time was just about to enter college, and he had an incredible attraction to African art. I also found out that he spent a lot of time in New Mexico, and the reason why he spent a lot of time in New Mexico is because 1. it gave him a chance to get away from Texas, and 2. he was able to basically walk down the street and people really not know who he was or what he did. So he could kind of not have to be a CEO for those periods of time where he got a chance to get away. The reason why I tell you this story is because I immersed myself in understanding who he is, how he thought, how he worked, what was important to him, what his likes were and what his dislikes were, and as I did that, as I immersed in his life, he then paid the same respect to me. He paid the same respect to me, because he began asking questions about me and my story and what brought me to where I was in my career, in my life, in my work and everything else, and we built a very strong relationship. I'm gonna pause on that word relationship, because a lot of times the things that hold us back in corporate America, especially if we show up either from a gender difference or from an ethnicity difference, is that we don't take the time to form those relationships, and they have to be formed very selflessly. Very purposefully but very selflessly. You cannot walk into a relationship and expect a person to just automatically, you know, ask you about your family or your spouse or your education or anything else like that, even though that's a big part of your story. You have to first start out by asking them about themselves. I always tell people when they're about to go to an interview or if they're about to, you know, have a first conversation with another human being, and I tell them, "Use the 80/20 rule," and the 80/20 rule says that you should only talk 20% of the time, because when you're talking, you're not listening. When you're talking, you're not able to hear the story of the other person who is in front of you, who emotional intelligence tells you should be the center of your attention for that interaction. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense. For sure, for sure. So let me ask you this, because I'd like to get, you know, your prediction. Based on your expertise as an I&D subject matter expert, like, what is the future of I&D if it stays its current course?Chris: Yeah. I will tell you if it stays its current course--we've seen the current course trajectory for inclusion and diversity over the last 50+ years. We still have the same representation of minorities in CEO positions and board director positions and females in CEO positions and board director positions that we've had for the last, you know, 30+ years. That course has not changed. We have the same make-up as far as individuals who are moving into C-level jobs. We've got the same make-up that we've had, you know, for the last 35, 40+ years. That trajectory has already been put in place, and it continues to be there even though the demographics of this country have completely changed. As a matter of fact, if you're under the age of 18 right now, the majority in this country have actually become the minority and the minority have become the majority, but it doesn't mean--because the numbers are there, it doesn't mean that there will be change in organizations and corporations and boards of directors and people making key decisions. If you look across the world, we see where that phenomena has happened in other countries, where the minorities in a country are actually still in powerful positions over the majority of people who actually happen to be part of the organization or the countries, because they have not changed. They have not understood how to change the mindsets and really tap into the value of the vast majority of people who actually inhabit the place that they're at geographically. So the current trajectory has already proven out that it will remain the way it is, and the bad side, the down side of that trajectory, is that we don't have the ability to tap into one of our greatest resources, which is the true, rich diversity of people that walk into organizations every day, that walk into churches every day, that walk past you down the streets every day.Zach: Hm. That's a heavy--that's heavy, but this has been a great discussion, Chris, and, you know, before we wrap up, I'd like to know - are there any other projects that you're working on?Chris: Yes. Yeah, so the one--the latest project that is just unfolding at the conclusion here of 2018 has been a small I'll just call it boutique consulting firm that I just decided I'm going to create, because I don't see the current trajectory changing, and I said, "You know what? At the end of the day, one person can make a difference if they just figure it out and start doing it in a very meaningful way," and so I just started a small firm called Storytellers Consulting, and Storytellers Consulting has a lot to do with what we just discussed on this podcast, and that is teaching executives how to tell their stories and how to bring the stories out of the people who they work with and how to create inclusive cultures and how to create safe spaces and how to evolve organizations into becoming more inclusive. If there is nothing that is done at the neurological level, change will not happen, period. So here's my final thought on how change happens and why I know for sure this is true. So January. January is the most important month of the year for a lot of people, because they make a lot of promises to themselves. Most of us--most of us make promises like, "I'm going to lose that 10, 15, 20 pounds that has burdening me for the last, you know, 15 years of my life." That resolution lasts 'til about February 15th. I always give people right up 'til about Valentine's Day, and then the behaviors go back to what they used to be, right? And the reason why the behaviors go back to what they used to be is because change management requires for people to actually change neurologically, and the only way that that happens--let's call it for the sake of losing weight--the only way that you're gonna physically be able to lose weight and keep it off is if something triggers you to know that my behavior has to change or else there's either a consequence or else I see the benefit so much that I'm not gonna go back to my bad habits, and for a lot of people, those changes happen only when you get burdened with something like--something bad is gonna happen to you if you don't lose weight. Like, you get a call from the doc and they tell you the consequence of you not losing the weight. So short of that--because most people are not faced with that--short of that, we've got to change neurologically, which means that in order for me to physically make sure that you're going to stick to your commitments, I've got to explain to you in a way that makes so much sense that you are not gonna go back to your bad habits regardless of the temptation. The reason why this is so important is because, again, for most of us, we get off the diets by February 15th, and the reason being is because we've done nothing to convince ourselves that we have to be on that diet or we have to change our way of living. In diversity and inclusion, that neuroscience change starts with creating a relationship. The same exact thing would happen if you were to--as opposed to telling someone else that you're gonna lose a whole bunch of weight, if you signed up and created, let's say, a partnership with someone and said, "You know what? For the next year, you and I, three times a week, are gonna meet at the gym. We're gonna go together. I'm gonna hold you accountable, you're gonna hold me accountable, and we are going to change our lives together." When there is that partnership, that relationship, that neurological change inside of your head, inside of your body, it has a lot better of an opportunity of sticking, and so that's exactly what we want to do with Storytellers Consulting. That's exactly what we want to do when it comes to change management just in general across the country.Zach: This has been a phenomenal conversation. I just--I really appreciate it, Chris. Before we let you go--I know you just shared some--first of all, you've been dropping sauce this entire conversation, but do you have any final thoughts or shout-outs?Chris: Yeah. I guess the final thought or shout-out I have is 1. I really want to just let people know that one, there is no criticism associated with, you know, where we are today in this--in this country relative to diversity and inclusion. I do not feel like it is anyone's fault. I don't want anyone to, you know, hear this podcast and believe that, Zach, you or I are saying that there are so many social injustices going on in this country that, you know, this is just a throwaway or there is someone to truly blame for everything. That is not the message whatsoever. The message is that most of our current existence, most of our decisions, most of our behaviors, they are so subconscious, unconscious, subliminal, that we're not even aware of it a lot of times, and so all we're doing, all we're saying, all we're advocating for is for people to actually do things that are more consciously driven, and when you do things that are more consciously driven and there's a motivation and a methodology for you to do that, then we can actually make change, and that is exactly what we're advocating for, is that we just really think about this from a historical perspective, realizing certain things have just not been that effective, you know? The legislation that we did back in the '60s and, you know, all of the affirmative action pushes that we've done through the '70s and '80s, you know, as great as they've been, you know, to make people feel better, they really have not necessarily touched on the--on the real metrics associated with businesses and corporations in this country, and our organizations are missing out on an incredible opportunity to tap into what is now going to become the majority population in this country. And so again, my shout-out [?] to take a very introspective look and approach at what are we personally doing right now to build relationships that actually go beyond our racial differences, go beyond our gender differences and create true, meaningful, authentic relationships with other human beings by getting to know them at a neurological level. A lot of times, that is done through stories and through the art of storytelling.Zach: Chris, we definitely appreciate you being on the Living Corporate podcast today, and we consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back, man.Chris: Thank you so much, man. It has been a pleasure and a gift and a blessing. Thank you.Zach: Amen, man. Peace.Chris: Amen. All righty, be well.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with career coach and resume writer Tristan Layfield to discuss what goes into landing the job of your dreams and how to achieve that goal.Find out more about Tristan here: https://layfieldresume.com/about/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach.Ade: And you're listening to Living Corporate. So Zach...Zach: What's up?Ade: So we have another B-Side, but this is the last full episode before our Wrap Up episode this month. Zach: Sheesh, already?Ade: Yeah, man. It's been such a wild ride. Can you believe it's only been seven months since we got started? In that very, very short time, we've had some dope conversations, some amazing guests, and more than a few funny moments.Zach: [laughing] For sure, but you know what? We'll talk all about that in our Season Wrap Up episode in a couple weeks.Ade: We sure are.Zach: That's right, but today, we're gonna talk about landing the job of your dreams.Ade: The job of your dreams? That reminds me of that lottery that got over a billion dollars.Zach: A billion dollars. Oh, yeah. What would you do if you had all that money?Ade: Who are you kidding? I wouldn't do just one thing. I would open a restaurant, travel the world, open free clinics and schools all around the world. Pretty much whatever my heart could possibly desire. I think that's the definition of a dream job, something that you would do if money wasn't a concern. What's your dream job?Zach: So I have to start with my passion, right? So my passion is people and creating platforms that amplify the voices and experiences of underrepresented people, so a lot of really what Living Corporate is doing. So my dream job would have to heavily involve Living Corporate for sure.Ade: Ayyyy. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone like a career coach, but not just any career coach. Maybe a public speaker, someone with professional resume writing experience, an educator. Someone who's been featured in a variety of publications. Let's throw maybe black enterprise in there, and maybe he focuses his work on underrepresented people, especially millennials worldwide but also around his hometown of Detroit, Michigan.Zach: Hm. Oh, wait. You mean like our guest Tristan Layfield?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Look--Sound Man, look. We are so many episodes in. Go ahead and give me those air horns right HERE.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Yeah, shout out to J.J.Zach: [laughing] Shout out to J.J., hey, A.K.A. Sound Man. We'll talk about that more too. [laughing] Anyway, so next what we're gonna do is get into our interview with our guest, Tristan Layfield. Hope you all enjoy. And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Tristan Layfield on the show. Tristan, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Tristan: Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. It's a little rainy here today, but I'm feeling good.Zach: Hey, man, I hear you. For those of us who don't know you though, tell us a little bit about yourself.Tristan: Yeah. So like you said, my name is Tristan Layfield. I'm based in the Metro Detroit area, and I'm a career coach and resume writer that approaches career development with my clients by combining their personal branding with their career field through strategic coaching, the development of resumes, cover letters and LinkedIn profiles that really help my clients stand out. Zach: So today we're talking about landing the job of your dreams. That kind of assumes though that you know what your dreams are. What advice do you have for professionals who really don't know what they want, and how do they find that out?Tristan: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I think this is a problem that plagues a lot of us. And first, I think it's having an understanding of what you really want to do, and when I say that, I don't mean the thing that everyone has been telling you that you should do since you were young but the thing that you actually like, right? So I've noticed in talking with a lot of my clients and a lot of people I work with that we've been forced to pick what we wanted to do or wanted to be since we were young, and then most of us go to college where we're forced to pick a major well before we even know what we're interested in. So then we graduate with everybody else's dreams on us instead of focusing on our own. I always suggest the way to get out of that is to sort of start by doing what I call an interest alignment activity. So essentially, you make four different lists, and the first one is you list things that are high-skill for you and high-interest, meaning those are skills that you're good at and skills that you like to do. The second list is high-skill and low-interest. So those are skills that you're good at, but you really just don't like to do. And these are the things that cause burnout, right? And then the third list is low-skill, low-interest. These are the things you want to work on or develop. You're very interested in doing those things. And then the last one is low-skill and low-interest, and these are red flag areas. These are things that you don't enjoy and you're not good at, right? So once you make those lists, from there you're able to utilize those skills in that first and third section to build what your ideal job description would be, and you're also able to identify jobs that are heavy in the things that you listed in the second and fourth sections because you'll be able to better identify those roles that aren't a good fit for you because they are, you know, those skills that you're not interested in or those skills that you just really aren't good at and have no interest in overall. So, you know, doing that type of exercise gives you a baseline upon which you're able to assess all of the jobs you're looking at to understand that the position may be a fit for you and your expertise. So that's one of the things that I suggest to really try to narrow down the jobs that you're looking at, is to have something to compare it to, and that's how I sort of get to it with my clients.Zach: So does a--let me ask you this. Does a dream job mean a permanent job? Are dreams allowed to change?Tristan: [laughing] Yeah, that's a great question. So dream jobs can mean a permanent job for some people, but more often than not that's not always the case, because typically, as we grow and change as people, what we want, or our dream or our vision of things, typically changes over time. So to simply answer your question, "Are dreams allowed to change," yes, dreams are allowed to change, and I actually recently was working with a client who grew up knowing that she wanted to be a lawyer. And she went to law school, and she had been practicing law for over 20 years, but recently realized that she wanted to make a pivot into the non-profit sector as she had been working--doing a little bit of that work. So she found out that she loved it, and she came to me to figure out how to pivot her career, right? This woman's been in her career for well over 20 years, and now her dream has changed, and I see that very often, and I see that as a common thing, simply because, like I said earlier, we typically leave college or leave school with other people's dreams on us. Typically that's what we're trying to fulfill. We're not trying to fulfill our own dreams, right? So yeah, I definitely think they're allowed to change. Does it mean a permanent job? It can, and sometimes it runs its course. It was fun. You got the skills you needed, and now you need to move on.Zach: So, you know, I talk to people, especially, like, millennial professionals, and there's kind of, like, this divide, right? So there's a large contingency of us who will say, "Look, man. You've got to figure out where you just need to figure out where you stay and you can get locked in so you can get promoted, you can grow, you can climb the ladder," so and so forth. There's another group of people--and I probably fall more in this camp--of, like, "Look, man. You've got to kind of keep it moving," right? Like, "You need to figure out," you know, every three, four, every really 18, 24 months, you need to really be doing a hard assessment of, like, where you're at and if you need to make some transitions, either internally or externally or whatever the case may be. Where would you draw the line in-between looking for a genuine change and just being fickle or indecisive?Tristan: You know, I think it really depends on you as a person. Like you just said, there's sort of two different camps of people, the people who want to get into a company and want to be loyal to that company and move up through that company, and then there's the people who, unfortunately like many of us millennials, we sort of came out--we came out of school in a recession period, right? There weren't a lot of jobs, this that and the other, so we really had a foot--we were a foot behind everyone when it came to jobs or pay or whatever the case may be, and that has required us to sort of go on what I call a get rich quick scheme, you know? We're trying to catch up with everybody, and sometimes that requires us to move every two years to get that 10% raise in pay or whatever the case may be. So I think it is--it really depends on the person, but for me, where I think--excuse me, where I draw the line between genuine change and just being fickle and indecisive is when you're switching jobs or industries very frequently, like every one to two years, without actually sitting down and conducting a thorough analysis of why you're doing it, right? Most people who are looking for genuine change take the time to think through where they want to go and what they want to do or why this situation is not working for them, and they also provide enough time for them to get into the new area and learn and apply those things that they learn to practice. And that takes time, and sometimes that period can be difficult simply because you're learning and adjusting, and that is where people who are fickle or indecisive tend to jump ship, right? Change isn't easy, and those who are genuinely seeking it tend to understand that this is a process, and those who aren't genuinely seeking it or just being fickle and indecisive are just moving because of one little thing, you know, rubbed them the wrong way. Most of the time.Zach: Okay. So let me ask you this. I'm thinking through this as you're giving me this answer. If you had to give millennials and just working professionals of color advice when it comes to career navigation and finding what's going on for you--what would you say are some of the main challenges that you see with people that look like us when it comes to career navigation and finding that sweet spot for us?Tristan: Ooh, that is a loaded question. Right? [laughs] Well, first, I think--I think we all need to sit down and assess what we're really interested in and what we want to do. We have to make peace with the fact that what we had majored in in college may not be what we actually end up doing in life, and that is okay, and you have to realize that the majority of people are in that place. And then once you get into a place where you do like it, you need to understand sort of what the--what the pathway forward is inside of that company or inside of this industry, right? What are the next steps? How do you get there? What skills do you currently have, and what skills are you missing? And you identify those through a skills gap analysis, and sometimes you can identify, "Okay, this company is gonna allow me to get this skill set, but they don't have anything that's gonna allow me to get this other skill set to get to that ultimate position that I want to be in." So sometimes that means, you know, switching jobs, switching companies, switching industries to get that other skill set, and I think we have to be open about that and open and honest with ourselves that, you know, it's gonna be a process. It takes time. It takes dedication and, you know, no one really becomes successful without actually sitting down and putting in the work to figure out where they want to go, and often times what I find is we try to do all of that alone, and unfortunately that's not always everyone's zone of genius. So reach out and get help, whether that be me, like, a career coach and resume writer, or whether that be a friend that you see in the field doing the work, you know, talking to them, or whether that be getting informational interviews. You really have to be your biggest advocate in your own career search, and I think that's one of the biggest things I think people struggle with, is being their own advocate, and it's typically because they haven't done the work to figure out what they're actually interested in and how to actually attain it.Zach: That's a great last point too around being your own advocate. We just recently had Deborah Owens, who is the CEO of Corporate Alley Cat, and we had a whole episode around self-advocacy and strategic networking, and that was a main point too. So that was more from the context of navigating internally for the sake of your career, but your point also resonates because regardless if you're looking--irrespective of if you're looking for a change internally or you're looking for a change externally, you have to be your biggest advocate. Like, no one's gonna care more about you than you.Tristan: You have to be your own biggest advocate. No one knows your experience better than you, no one knows where your expertise lies better than you, and no one knows what you are able to actually go in and do and learn and put on the table, and so sometimes you just really need to show people that, and you really need to exemplify that, and the only way you're gonna do it is if you advocate for yourself.Zach: Absolutely. Well, look, this has been great, Tristan. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about you and your company? Tristan: Yeah, this has been amazing, and I appreciate it. People can check us out at my website, which is www.layfieldresume.com, and for those of you guys who don't know how to spell it, it's L-A-Y-F as in Frank-I-E-L-D-R-E-S-U-M-E dot com, or you can follow me on Instagram @LayfieldResume or connect with me on LinkedIn at TristanLayfield. Zach: Awesome, man. You know we'll make sure to have all of that information in our show notes so they can--our audience can check it out. Any parting words or shout outs before we let you go?Tristan: Yeah. You know, I just want to shout out my tribe. I always like to shout them out. My friends, my best friend, you know, my grandma. Everybody who's been supporting me along this journey, I just really appreciate them. I just want to thank you so much, Zach, for having me on the show. The conversations you're having are just so important for us to be discussing, and I'm just glad to be a part of it.Zach: Man, I'm honored by that. And you know what? Shout out to the word tribe. I gotta start using this word, man. [laughing]Tristan: [laughing] It takes a village, okay?Zach: It takes a village, man. Listen, man. I'm noticing--I'm noticing, man, all of my melanated working professionals who are building things are using this language, tribe. I've heard that from Deun Ivory. I've heard that from--I've just heard that from a few different guests. Tye Miles said it. Okay, anyway. Now I'm on a tangent. [laughs] Tristan, it's been a pleasure. God bless. This has been a great time. Hope to have you back, and appreciate your time, man. Tristan: I appreciate you having me on, man. Have a great one.Zach: Peace. Ade: Yo, we're back. Bomb interview as always, Zach. Excited that we were able to get Tristan on the show, and listening to that discussion reminds me that your resume is only one part of your journey in landing a dream job and that your dreams sometimes change, and that's okay too.Zach: For sure. Now, look, I have some bad news for y'all.Ade: No!Zach: No Fave Things this week, but that doesn't mean you can't check out our Fave Things on our website, right?Ade: [makes the "womp-womp" sound] I'm really nailing our sound effects today.Zach: You're doing a great job with the sound effects actually today. In fact, Sound Man, go ahead and drop, like, a small round of applause for Ade for her sound effects today. She came in very strongly on the "whaaaat?" Actually it wasn't raspy at all.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Ayy. Sir, are you coming for me?Zach: Then the womp-womp was very full, so it was good.Ade: Thank you.Zach: No, it was good. But no, really, our Favorite Things section, we've called out--the books, all of the books that we've talked about on the show, they're on that list. DeRay Mckesson's book, J Prince's book, Amy Waninger's book. They're all on this list of Favorite Things. You can go check out some of our favorite foods. I've got the Capital City Mambo Sauce on there. That's right, Capital City--this is not a paid ad. Capital City Mambo Sauce is fire. I ordered two gallons of the sauce about six months ago.Ade: [laughing] You are ridiculous.Zach: [laughing] But anyway, no Favorite Things this week. However, in a couple weeks when we do our Season 1 Wrap Up show, it's gonna essentially be all of this. It's gonna be me and Ade just talking, having a good time, and we'll talk about a variety of Favorite Things, from our favorite episodes to our favorite things on our list, and we'll actually make one last season update to our Favorite Things list, okay?Ade: Yep.Zach: Okay? So there's that, there's that. But we will have it back. Ade: Okay. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well.Zach: That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.